Market Dominance Guys: Recent Episodes
ConnectAndSell
Welcome to another Market Dominance Guys episode, and today we're trying something completely different. What happens when you spend four hours in a studio recording sales training content, and then someone creates an AI version of you? Well, you're about to find out.
Our Chris Beall recently worked with Alex Kutsishin from myfuel.io to create AI-powered training experiences. The result? An AI Chris that sounds remarkably like the real thing – maybe a younger version – and knows everything Chris teaches about cold calling, market dominance, and the psychology of trust.
In this experimental episode, the real Chris interviews his AI counterpart, diving into First to Converse principles, list-building strategies, and how to master the emotional journey of cold calling. It's enlightening, it's creative, and yes, it's a little weird hearing Chris talk to himself. But it showcases an efficient new way for sales teams and enterprises to access expert training 24/7.
Let's listen in as human meets algorithm in the pursuit of sales excellence.
Alex Kutsishin, Chief Executive Officer
Alex Kutsishin is co-founder and CEO of FUEL !nc, the world's first Performance-as-a-Service platform for sales teams and leadership designed to redefine business education and performance standards. With an entrepreneurial spirit evident since his youth, he has co-founded ten companies — from pioneering medical offices in Washington, D.C. to introducing the first American-based low-code, no-code platform for custom mobile websites. Kutsishin has won numerous awards, including EY Entrepreneur of the Year.
We'd signed off. Thanked everyone. Sam Daish was probably ready to start his day in Auckland, and we were wrapping up what had already been a dense conversation about AI in sales. But then Chris started talking about something he calls "micro pivoting" - those split-second adjustments that separate elite salespeople from everyone else - and none of us wanted to hang up.
What followed was Chris dissecting the athletic nature of top sales performance, using Cherryl Turner's cold calling mastery as a case study. The insight about how elite reps make tiny voice and timing adjustments that most of us would never notice, and how those microscopic moments determine whether a conversation continues or dies. This wasn't planned content - it was pure discovery happening in real time, the kind of conversation that makes you realize the real secrets are hiding in plain sight.
Sometimes the best episodes happen when you think you're done recording.
Chris and Corey are joined by Blackpearl Group’s CTO, Sam Daish. In this episode, he's dousing us with the reality of why most sales AI tools are basically expensive cat toys. Blackpearl has built Bebop.AI, a tool that makes sense as an addition to a sales pro’s tech stack. It could probably replace several nonsensical shiny AI tools they are currently batting around instead of making calls.
Corey's firing questions about AI fatigue (because let's face it, we all have it), while Chris goes full mathematician on us with this brutal insight: sales reps are like cats chasing laser pointers with AI. Lots of movement, lots of fascination, but nobody's actually catching anything.
You may wonder how this fits in with BeBop.ai. It will make more sense after you hear the origin story - they almost called it "Hot Pipe" until someone pointed out the, uh, alternative interpretations. Instead, they went with a full bebop jazz vibe in the function and tone because they wanted sales to feel like improvisation, not a pile of dated rigid playbooks.
As the real kicker, Chris breaks down why most AI implementations fail: false negatives. You're not just calling the wrong people - you're missing the right ones entirely. And Sam's nodding along because BebopAI tackles this by making the entire Internet your database instead of some limited proprietary dataset.
The feature that gets reps most excited? Not the fancy prospect data. It's the objection handling. Turns out confidence beats information every time.
Join us for this episode, “The Laser Pointer Problem: Why your reps are chasing AI like distracted cats .”
Action Items Suggested in This Episode:
For Sales Leaders/CROs* Audit your AI strategy focus - Are you trying to bring bottom performers up, or amplify your top performers? Chris argues the latter delivers exponentially better ROI * Identify your "Jonti McLarens" - Find your top performers and give them 10% more time/better tools (equivalent to adding 10 middle-tier reps) * Evaluate your current AI tools - Are they creating "laser pointer cat" behavior or getting reps to more conversations?
For Sales Reps* Test BeBop.ai's's dossier approach, with a special focus on the objection handling feature that receives the most positive feedback. * Use AI for discovery prep, not avoidance - Read dossiers in the minutes before scheduled meetings when memory retention is highest. * Ask "why" to AI responses - Sam emphasizes this helps uncover hallucinations and improves reasoning.
For Sales Operations/Enablement* Shift from proprietary databases to "Internet as database" tools - Evaluate platforms that can digest broader data sources * Implement AI that works as "companion, not a replacement" - Focus on tools that enhance human expertise rather than substitute for it * Measure false negatives, not just false positives - Track opportunities missed, not just wrong prospects contacted
For Product/Marketing Teams* Load your website into BebopAI - Sam says this simple step works really well for basic company understanding * Document your go-to-market messaging - Feed it into AI tools for consistent, company-specific responses. * Create objection handling libraries - The most requested feature, according to Sam's feedback.
For Executives/Investors* Recognize top salespeople as an innovation economy constraint - Chris's thesis: Elite sales performance limits how fast innovation spreads * Budget for commission accelerators - Top performers using AI tools may exceed traditional quota expectations * Rethink headcount-based scaling - Focus on amplifying existing top talent vs. adding middle-tier reps
Immediate Next Steps* Try the "Internet as database" approach - Ask AI tools open-ended questions like "find me customers for [your company]"
What happens when you combine decades of sales wisdom with cutting-edge AI coaching? You get a fascinating conversation about the future of sales performance.
In this episode, Chris and Corey sit down with Jared Zelman, Founder of Othello (formerly Cicero), who's built an AI virtual assistant that coaches sales reps through every part of their deals in real-time. From whispered suggestions during discovery calls to automated follow-ups, Othello is turning B-players into A-players and saving top performers 7+ hours per week.
Discover why Sandler methodology emerged as the AI's preferred approach, learn the difference between going "rote" versus "rogue" in sales situations, and find out how simple desktop notifications are creating 15% win rate improvements across Fortune 500 companies.
Whether you're struggling with team performance consistency or looking to scale coaching across your organization, this episode reveals how AI is finally solving the age-old challenge of converting average performers into top producers.
Join us for this episode, "Rote vs. Rogue: The Fine Line Between Sales Mastery and Sales Mediocrity."
https://www.othello.ai/
READING LIST FROM THIS EPISODE:
- "Flip the Script" by Oren Klaff
- "Pitch Anything" by Oren Klaff
- "The Must React System: User's Guide to Prospecting C-Suite Executives" by Craig Kleeman
- "Love Your Team: Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World" by Helen Fanucci
- "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss
- "SPIN Selling" by Neil Rackham
Welcome to a truly special episode of Market Dominance Guys. Today, Chris Beall flies solo while co-host Corey Frank is busy scaling his powerhouse conversationalist team at Branch 49 down in Phoenix – where business is as hot as the July desert sun.
In this unique episode, Chris gives us an exclusive preview of his upcoming book "First to Converse: Dominate Markets with the Human Voice," set to release in fall 2025. This isn't just another sales book – it's a comprehensive cookbook for market dominance, designed for everyone from CEOs and founders to individual sales contributors who understand that whoever is first to converse is first to win.
Chris takes us through the book's introduction, sharing the uncomfortable truth that while everyone thinks buyers want to control the sales process, the reality is that the first company to engage a prospect in meaningful conversation shapes their entire buying journey. Drawing from over 14 years of experience leading ConnectAndSell, Chris reveals why cold calling remains the strongest foundation for B2B success – and why waiting for inbound leads is a losing strategy.
This episode serves as both a dry run for the audiobook version and a masterclass in why targeted conversations at pace and scale dominate markets. So buckle up as Chris challenges everything you think you know about modern B2B sales.
What does it really take to grow in sales—and in life?
In Part 2 of this Market Dominance Guys episode, Chris Beall continues his conversation with Will Post of Branch 49. They dig into what it means to “deepen your bag”—adding tools, sharpening your thinking, and building a future through relentless conversation practice.
Will shares his shift in mindset, from just setting meetings to connecting value and asking better questions. Along the way, he offers one powerful suggestion: go outside and ask someone a question. It’s not about scripts—it’s about starting.
This episode is a reminder that communication isn’t disappearing. It’s evolving—and it’s being practiced every day by the next generation of great sales leaders.
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall welcomes Will Post—rising sales pro from Branch 49, Corey Frank’s high-velocity sales team. Will shares what it’s like to sit in the ConnectAndSell seat of fire: navigating nerves, building momentum, and ringing the bell with every hard-won meeting.
This isn’t just about dialing—it’s about showing up with your full self: mind, body, and voice. If you’ve ever been new to sales or coached someone through the steep part of the learning curve, this one’s for you.
About Will Post:
Will Post is a current Grand Canyon University student majoring in entrepreneurship with a minor in finance and economics. He’s passionate about sales, marketing, and developing a strong entrepreneurial mindset through GCU’s business programs and student organizations.
In addition to his academic work, Will serves in the Minnesota Army National Guard, where he’s gained valuable experience in leadership, discipline, and teamwork. He’s currently exploring sales, marketing, and operations management career opportunities.
Corey Frank and Chris Beall are taking cold-calling to places it's never been before. What happens when you combine the precision of a golf swing with the art of a sales conversation? Our guests Gerry Hill from ConnectAndSell and Josh Smith from CRO Connected decided to find out by creating what might be the world's first golf course cold-calling championship.
Armed with ConnectAndSell's mobile app, headsets, and a film crew, these brave souls tackled both fairways and prospect objections simultaneously, creating what Chris Beall calls 'beautiful lunacy.' Whether you're a sales leader looking for innovative ways to engage your team or just someone who appreciates the hustle of trying something absurdly difficult, this episode showcases what happens when you take your craft seriously enough to have fun with it.
Imagine the gentle rustling of golf course trees in the background, and join Corey and Chris for a conversation about breaking the mundane mold of B2B sales while navigating literal and metaphorical sand traps.
In today's spontaneous episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall ambushes (his words, not mine) an extraordinary cold-calling talent: Josh Bowyer, CEO and co-founder of Zint Technology. What unfolds is a masterclass in the art of cold-calling performance, authenticity, and the delicate dance between manufactured delivery and genuine belief.
Josh shares how he's booked over 100 meetings in just 4.5 weeks using ConnectAndSell, but the real gold is in his insights about perfecting his cold call 'performance' over thousands of iterations while maintaining authentic curiosity. As he puts it, the key is simple: 'Just don't sound like a dick in the first 7 seconds.'
From discussing the impact of AI on sales to exploring the critical balance between scripted performance and genuine belief, this conversation reveals why top performers like Josh can consistently convert cold calls into meetings. Chris and Josh dive deep into how the best cold callers combine theatrical precision with sincere conviction that they offer real value.
The episode wraps up with a fascinating discussion about the future of sales in an AI world, including Josh's recent encounter with what he suspects was an AI bot trying to get his insurance renewal date.
Join Chris and Josh for this unplanned but insight-packed exploration of what makes cold calling work at the highest levels.
Links from this episode:
Zint.io
ConnectAndSell
Branch 49
Today, we're diving into what can only be described as an AI cold-calling adventure gone slightly sideways - in the best possible way. Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell, recently attempted to create and test an AI-powered cold calling coach using ChatGPT. What makes this episode particularly entertaining is that Chris couldn't hear the AI's responses during his live demo, but somehow still managed to nail it. It's like watching a master jazz musician improvise without being able to hear the band - and somehow staying perfectly in tune.
Here are a couple of links to the articles he makes reference to:
https://connectandsell.com/five-sentences-will-change-life-part-1/
https://connectandsell.com/five-sentences-will-change-life-part-2/
If you want the rubrik, contact Chris Beall directly.
Today they welcome Helen Fanucci, author of "Love Your Team" and CEO/Co-Founder of Pipeline Power, for a candid look at why sales coaching fails - and how to fix it.
The stats are startling: only 0.01% of recorded sales conversations are ever reviewed, and 83% of sales managers have never received formal training. Through their discussion, the trio reveals practical solutions, including Helen's upcoming AI-powered coaching platform allowing sales managers to practice difficult conversations in a safe environment.
From Branch 49's "finishing school for future CEOs" approach to why cultural transformation must precede digital transformation, this conversation challenges conventional wisdom about sales leadership. Whether you're a seasoned CSO or a newly minted sales manager, you'll gain fresh perspectives on building and nurturing high-performing sales teams through systematic coaching.
Link to Free Chatbot tied to Chapter 11 of "Love Your Team."
https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67539b3c0c2081918142398d78ac3de9-love-your-team-managing-underperformers
Last time, we peeled back the layers on spotting sales superstars with the Glider.ai crew. Now, in Episode 248, we're rolling our sleeves up and getting our hands dirty with the nuts and bolts of their process. Chris, Corey, Aron, and Anand aren't pulling any punches as they dissect Glider.ai's assessment approach. They're asking the hard-hitting questions: Can we really stamp out hiring bias? Where's the sweet spot between tech and human intuition in sales? And what's next in the evolution of building sales dream teams? Get ready for a no-nonsense deep dive that might just flip your hiring playbook on its head and supercharge your path to market dominance. Listen to this episode EP248: "Crafting Unbeatable Sales Teams: The Competitive Edge in B2B."
Catch the first part of this conversation here.
Aron Placencia and Anand Karasi from Glider.ai join Chris Beall and Corey Frank to tackle the perennial challenge of talent acquisition in sales. They're not just talking about finding "good" people – they're on the hunt for true "A players." How do you spot them? What makes them tick? And how can you build a team full of them? From the pitfalls of traditional hiring to the power of curiosity in sales, this conversation pulls no punches. Tune in as they break down Glider.ai's fresh approach to assessing and hiring top talent, and why it matters in today's cutthroat sales landscape. Listen to this episode, EP247: "Uncovering A-Players: The New Science of Sales Talent Acquisition."
About Glider.ai
Glider AI goes back to our CEO's humble beginnings in India. Dedication, work ethic, and a strong family network enabled Satish to find success. But he saw many others like him, equally capable, struggle and continue to struggle. This catapulted the idea of Glider into flight to create a platform helping hiring teams build their dream team and candidates land their dream job. Visit https://glider.ai.
Helen Fanucci, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Power, continues her role as host in this illuminating conversation with Chris Beall. We're picking up where we left off, unraveling the mysteries of dormant leads and exploring their untapped potential. This episode delves into what Chris calls "Lazarus leads" - those seemingly dead opportunities that can be resurrected for massive value. As Helen astutely observes, "It's not 16 billion of value. It's 16 billion of wasted ad spend piling up." Get ready for eye-opening insights and innovative strategies that could revolutionize your approach to inbound leads, potentially doubling your Return on Ad Spend. This conversation is packed with game-changing ideas for sales leaders, CSOs, and CEOs looking to transform their sales strategy.
Listen to the first half of this conversation here.
Listen to all episodes featuring Helen Fanucci here.
We're shaking things up today with Helen Fanucci, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Power, taking the reins as our host. Helen engages Chris Beall in a thought-provoking exploration of dormant leads - those overlooked opportunities that could be gold mines for your business. Chris reveals a startling statistic: "91% of $18 billion is wasted" on leads that never get a conversation. This episode uncovers how this massive waste could be your next big opportunity. Helen and Chris dissect the challenges of following up on inbound leads and discuss innovative strategies to breathe life into these sleeping giants of sales potential.
Some of the key points covered in part 1 of this conversation include:
- Definition and origin of dormant leads
- Statistics on conversation coverage for inbound leads
- Importance of quick response times to inbound leads
- Comparison of web form submissions vs. inbound phone calls
- Introduction to ConnectAndSell's Instant Response and Lead Injection features
In this episode, we get into the heart of human connection with our special guest, Stephen Oommen. From tech giants like Microsoft to the challenging streets of Oklahoma, Stephen shares how he turned adversity into a superpower of empathy and connection. Hear how personal struggles forged a unique ability to relate to anyone, anywhere. Stephen reveals his secrets for authentic engagement in a world of artificial interactions.
Chris Beall unpacks the parallels between Stephen's approach and the art of cold calling, offering insights that will transform how you view sales and relationship-building. This conversation goes beyond tactics, exploring the impact of genuine curiosity and love for people in both personal and professional spheres.
Prepare to be moved and inspired to reconsider how you connect with others in an age where true human interaction has become a rare and valuable commodity. Join us for this episode: EP244: The Chameleon's Secret: Revolutionizing Cold Calling and Sales
AI has the potential to revolutionize sales management by providing insights from aggregated conversations, freeing up time for managers to focus on coaching and engaging with their teams more effectively.
Chris Beall and Helen Fanucci dive deeper into the evolving world of sales management in the era of AI. They explore how artificial intelligence can revolutionize coaching strategies and provide valuable insights from countless sales conversations. Helen emphasizes that "it's not enough to just give the sellers goals. The managers have to continue to be engaged to get the outcomes expected." Chris and Helen discuss the potential for AI to give managers back time to do their "real job" - identifying and executing on coaching opportunities. They touch on the emotional challenges of leadership, with Chris noting that "the higher up you go in an organization, the more you're emotionally challenged every day." This episode offers a forward-thinking look at how AI can empower sales leaders to focus on what truly matters: developing their teams and driving results in an increasingly complex business landscape. Listen to this episode: AI-Powered Coaching: The Future of Sales Management.
Listen to the first part of this conversation.
Listen to all episodes with Helen Fanucci as their guest.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this episode, Chris Beall welcomes back Helen Fanucci, founder and CEO of Pipeline Power, to explore the evolving world of sales management and AI-driven insights. Helen shares a startling statistic: "17% of the reps deliver 81% of the revenue," setting the stage for a deep dive into boosting team performance. The conversation reveals how AI, particularly ChatGPT, can revolutionize sales conversation analysis, offering quick and insightful skills assessments. Chris and Helen emphasize the importance of "getting messy with data" and how AI empowers sales managers to focus on critical aspects of their role. They discuss the shift from traditional quota-chasing to strategic market share capture, highlighting the value of early relationship-building in the sales process. This episode offers CEOs and sales leaders practical strategies to leverage AI and data for more effective sales management and market dominance.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this final segment with Brian Perks, Corey Frank, and Chris Beall, the conversation takes a fascinating turn into the human side of data-driven sales. They explore the delicate balance between leveraging advanced AI and maintaining genuine human connections. Brian shares insights on the power of sincerity in sales, while Chris delves into the psychology of risk in business relationships. The trio discusses the evolution of sales from mere territory management to building trust in a world where vendors can make or break careers. They touch on the importance of emotional intelligence in data interpretation and the art of restraint in using information. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders looking to navigate the complex interplay of technology, data, and human psychology in modern sales. Join them for "The Human Element in Data-Driven Sales: Sincerity, Risk, and Trust."
Listen to the full series with Brian Perks here.
Links from this episode:
5x5
Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this second episode of a visit with Chris, Corey, and guest Brian Perks they dissect the evolving landscape of data, innovation, and sales in the modern economy. They explore how utility-like standardization is reshaping industries, drawing parallels between electricity and data as foundational infrastructures. The conversation weaves through the challenges faced by innovators, the importance of reasoning in a data-rich world, and the potential for AI to enhance decision-making. Brian offers insights on the future of shared scientific innovation and data resources, while Chris and Corey tackle the complexities of avoiding reasoning errors in high-stakes business decisions.
With a mix of analogies ranging from 737 pilots to Wile E. Coyote moments, the trio unpacks why clear thinking is crucial in a world where data utilities can make or break a startup. And just when you think it's all serious business talk, Chris reminds us that sometimes, all an entrepreneur really needs is for someone to walk in with a cold Alaskan amber. It's a deep dive into the world of B2B sales and data strategy that'll leave you pondering - and possibly thirsty. Join us for this episode, “Wile E. Coyote, Data Utilities and Empty Beer Bottles.”
Links from this episode:
5x5
Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Corey Frank and Chris Beall welcome Brian Perks from 5x5, a revolutionary data cooperative. They dive deep into the changing data landscape in sales and marketing, exploring how traditional data brokerage models are becoming obsolete. Brian shares insights on 5x5's innovative approach to data as a utility, emphasizing the importance of data standardization, accuracy, and accessibility. The conversation touches on the challenges of fragmented data across various platforms and how 5x5 aims to solve these issues. The guys discuss the concept of data as a living, evolving entity and the importance of having your copy for innovation. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders, marketers, and entrepreneurs looking to leverage data for business growth in today's fast-paced, data-driven world. Join them for this episode, “The Evolution of Business Data Transformed From Brokers to Utilities.”
Links from this episode:
5x5
Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this unique episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall flies solo to unveil the blueprint for a revolutionary concept: the selling machine. As innovation accelerates and markets expand globally, Chris argues that a systematic approach to sales is not just beneficial—it's essential. He outlines a framework that transforms the traditional go-to-market strategy, making it more efficient, scalable, and cost-effective. Hat tip to Branch 49 and Corey Frank's team. This episode is a goldmine for innovators, startup founders, and sales leaders looking to bridge the gap between groundbreaking ideas and market success. Chris breaks down the components of a selling machine, from crafting the perfect offer to scaling operations, all while emphasizing the human elements that drive results. Join Chris for this episode, "The Innovator's Guide to Building a Foolproof Selling Machine."
Here's a unique gift from this episode - an outline of Chris' plan for building a sales machine. You'll have to listen to the full episode to get the details, but this gives you a way to follow along:
- Define the offer:
- Draw a circle with an arrow pointing right
- Identify the beneficiary (stick figure)
- Determine the unit of value delivered
- Estimate the monetary value for the beneficiary
- Identify the "flying car" (hard part) of the innovation:
- Use AI or other resources to find a solution
- Build a simple version to solve the core problem
- Address potential objections:
- Anticipate why conservative buyers might reject the offer
- Prepare answers to these objections
- Identify and describe all dependencies - more lines in the circle
- Generate a usable list of potential customers:
- Use available data to create a hypothetical list
- Sort by title and remove obvious false positives
- Choose a calibrated conversationalist:
- Use a service like Branch 49 if needed
- Test the message:
- Aim for a 5% conversion rate on cold calls
- Modify the message if necessary
- Conduct discovery meetings:
- Close these into reference customers
- Offer additional support to early adopters
- Scale the selling machine:
- Start with one conversationalist, then add a second
- Continue scaling to groups of eight with proper management
- Implement follow-up systems:
- Call those who don't attend scheduled meetings
- Set up quarterly follow-ups for those not initially interested
- Refine and segment lists based on interactions
- Involve subject matter experts (SMEs):
- Bring in founders or other experts after successful discovery meetings
- Generate more subject matter experts as needed
- Develop materials to transmit expertise without constant human involvement
In this episode, Chris Beall poses a provocative question that challenges the very structure of sales departments. What if companies didn't need traditional in-house sales teams at all?
Sounds radical, right? But Chris takes us on a thoughtful journey through the potential of outsourced sales. From list building to discovery calls, he explores how specialist expertise could revolutionize each step of the process.
Using his experience at ConnectAndSell and citing innovative approaches from companies like Branch 49, Chris makes a case for keeping only subject matter experts in-house. He backs his ideas with real-world examples and data, showing how modern technology enables this shift.
This episode might just transform how you think about sales team structure and efficiency in the modern business landscape. Join us for this episode, "Goodbye, Sales Department? Chris Beall's Provocative Proposal."
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall challenges conventional wisdom about pre-call research in cold calling. Drawing from a recent real-world experience, Chris dives deep into the mathematics and psychology behind sales conversations.
Is extensive research before each call truly beneficial, or could it hinder your team's effectiveness? Chris presents a compelling case that might surprise even seasoned sales professionals. He explores the delicate balance between being informed and being presumptuous and how this impacts your prospects' crucial emotional journey.
Whether you're a sales trainer, leader, or CSO, this episode offers fresh insights that could revolutionize your approach to cold calling and discovery meetings. Chris breaks down the true goals of these interactions and provides a framework for achieving them more efficiently.
Prepare to challenge your assumptions and discover a potentially game-changing perspective on pre-call research and sales strategy.
In this episode, Chris Beall gives us a manufacturing-inspired blueprint for supercharging your sales pipeline. Chris breaks down the process into actionable steps, from refining your contact lists to calibrating your sales team's performance. He shares a powerful Excel technique for rapidly improving list quality and introduces the concept of "Flight Schools" to perfect those crucial first 7 seconds of cold calls.
By treating pipeline generation as a precision manufacturing process, complete with quality control measures and continuous improvement cycles, Chris offers CSOs, sales managers, and reps a systematic approach to boost conversions and minimize wasted effort. Listen to this episode, "Calibrating Your Sales Machine: Techniques for Optimizing Pipeline Generation."
Listen to the full Mental Models series here.
In this episode of our Mental Models series, Chris kicks off by comparing sales processes to a manufacturing line, where quality at each step is crucial. But he quickly switches to a meatier topic: the role of "the guesser" in business decision-making. "Time is never our friend," Chris warns as he unpacks why every organization needs a designated decision-maker for those moments when the clock's ticking and information is scarce. He dives into the challenges of this role, from avoiding its use as a "political weapon" to ensuring the guesser has the trust and authority to act. Chris even draws parallels to a batter facing a pitch in the majors, illustrating the split-second nature of these decisions. Whether you're a sales leader or a professional navigating uncertain terrain, Chris's insights on decisive action in the face of uncertainty offer a fresh perspective on leadership and strategy in this episode, “Split-Second Sales: Mastering the Art of the Educated Guess.”
In this next episode of our Mental Models series, Chris tackles two critical aspects of modern sales strategy. He begins by examining the 'do nothing' competitor - often your most formidable adversary. Chris uses vivid analogies to illustrate why prospects cling to the status quo, invoking the familiar and ominous warning that 'Winter is Coming.' He then explains how to position your solution as a complementary, hybrid approach rather than a disruptive replacement.
Chris then explores how AI tools, particularly ChatGPT, revolutionize sales operations. He shares practical, step-by-step techniques for using AI to expand your target lists, refine your sales scripts, and challenge your existing mental models. Drawing from his daily use of ChatGPT, Chris offers insights on staying ahead of the curve and avoiding mental ruts.
Throughout the episode, Chris examines the balance between embracing new technologies and respecting established business practices, all while focusing on improving your sales effectiveness in an ever-evolving market landscape. Join him for this episode, "Breaking the Spell of 'Do Nothing': AI Tools for the Modern Sales Warrior."
Links from this episode:
RightBound
5 Sentences That Will Change Your Life
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this episode of our Mental Models series, Chris dives into the crucial topic of strategic positioning and the competitive landscape. Chris dissects how to effectively align team mental models, using ConnectAndSell as a real-world example. He explores the concept of positioning against alternatives, emphasizing the importance of complementary strategies and differentiating based on customer mission achievement. This episode offers valuable insights for businesses looking to refine their market approach in an increasingly competitive landscape.
In this brief episode, Market Dominance Guys' Chris Beall introduces some intriguing ideas about the crucial role of mental models in achieving market dominance. He touches on how our biases shape these models, the importance of learning over mere execution, and even hints at a mysterious new product born from an AI collaboration. But this is just the beginning - the full exploration is yet to come. Join us next time when Chris and Corey delve deeper into reshaping mental models, aligning teams, and potentially transforming our approach to market dominance. After this glimpse, you won't want to miss the wealth of insights coming your way.
Are you ready to sculpt your way to market dominance? In this episode, Chris Beall embarks on a solo journey to explore the art of crafting your perfect target list. He's also apologizing to you for glossing over this essential aspect of your sales strategy, and now he's determined to make things right. Just like Michelangelo's David, your ideal market is hidden within a huge block of data, waiting to be unveiled. But unlike marble, this data is more like clay - you can always add a bit back if you trim off too much. Chris will be your guide as you shape and mold your list, navigating the tricky landscape of false positives and negatives and using conversations as your tools to refine your market-dominating masterpiece. So, roll up your sleeves and get ready to get your hands dirty - it's time to uncover your own David (and no, we're not talking about the statue's abs). Join us for this episode, “Michelangelo's Market Dominance Secret for Sculpting Your List."
Links from this episode:Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this episode, Corey Frank and Chris Beall explore the power of conversations as the key to thriving in a future sales market increasingly clogged by AI. As digital channels become oversaturated and ineffective, the skilled rep emerges as the crucial resource, capable of navigating the uncrowded paths to success. Chris emphasizes that the robustness of results always sticks to where there is a constraint of nature, and in sales, that constraint is the skilled rep. While AI continues to congest the digital highways, there remains a parallel freeway that no one is driving on – one that can only be accessed through genuine, trust-building conversations. Corey and Chris discuss how to manufacture and curate these conversations over time, ultimately leading to market dominance by owning the digital freeway. Join them for this episode, “Navigating the AI-Clogged Digital Highway in Sales.”
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank dive into how sales reps can inadvertently end up working for their competitors by blowing the trust built in the discovery call. When a prospect agrees to a meeting, they're extending trust. But if the rep rushes into a transactional mode, focusing more on their own agenda, they risk shattering that trust. Chris emphasizes that once trust is broken, it's nearly impossible to regain, and the rep may have just handed a well-educated prospect to the competition. Tune in as Chris and Corey explore how to navigate discovery calls and build lasting trust with your prospects in this episode, “Blowing the Trust: Are you working for your competitor?”
Key takeaways from this episode:1. Blowing the trust built in a discovery call is like working for your competitor. If you rush into a transactional mode, you risk shattering the trust and handing a well-educated prospect to your competition. 2. Trust can be built in as little as seven seconds by demonstrating tactical empathy and competence in solving the prospect's problem. However, trust can be easily lost by trying to sell too quickly. 3. Many sales reps come from "intensity professions" where the default response to a challenge is to push harder. This can lead to reps pouncing on prospects and blowing trust. 4. Senior management should listen to actual sales calls, not just digest boiled-down reports. Hearing the conversations can reveal issues like reps being too hurried or dismissive of prospects. 5. Compensation plans that focus on short-term results can inadvertently encourage reps to work for the competition by blowing trust for quick wins. 6. Modeling behavior is crucial. Managers should treat their team members in the same way they expect reps to treat prospects – not as a competition, but as collaborators. 7. Skilled reps who can navigate the challenges of a conversation are a critical constraint. Coaching and upskilling reps to have better conversations is key. 8. AI and automation can provide short-term gains, but without the constraint of skilled reps, these approaches can quickly saturate and become ineffective, like a clogged freeway. 9. Conversations are the universal currency of sales. Upskilling reps to have high-value conversations is like creating a valuable commodity that can be applied across many situations.
Links from this episode:Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
You know what they say about humor in sales? It's like playing with fire. You might warm up the room or burn the whole deal down. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Richard Rabins, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank get into the weeds about using humor across different cultures.
Can you just translate your best one-liners and expect them to land in Japan or Germany? Think again. Richard has some stories about navigating the global sales landscape and is not afraid to admit where he's crashed and burned. But he also has some serious wisdom about how to build trust with prospects, no matter where they're from.
Tune in to hear about the importance of noticing the little things, playing the long game, and always, always doing your homework. If you're in B2B or SaaS sales, this episode is no joke - you'll come away with some practical tips and insights that just might help you dominate your market. So what are you waiting for? Let's get into this episode, “Laughter Lost in Translation - Navigating Humor in Global Sales.”
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
The full series with Richard Rabins here.
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In the second part of our conversation with Richard Rabins, CEO and Co-Founder of Alpha Software, we delve into the delicate balance of using humor effectively in sales. Chris Beall shares insights on guiding prospects through emotional transitions, from fear to trust, using the power of laughter and surprise. However, the discussion also explores the risks of pushing humor too far and the importance of knowing when to rein it in. Richard and Corey examine the idea of teaching humor, drawing parallels between sales and the world of comedy and performance. They emphasize the significance of confidence, vulnerability, and the ability to read your audience to avoid alienating prospects. Join us as we navigate the comedic conundrum of harnessing wit without crossing the line, and discover how to strike the perfect balance for building genuine relationships with prospects.
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this episode, the guys explore the art of ricocheting your way to sales success. Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by Richard Rabins, the CEO of Alpha Software, to discuss the power of humor in disarming prospects and humanizing interactions. As Richard shares his personal anecdotes about leveraging laughter to close deals, the group delves into the age-old question: can humor be taught, or is it an innate skill? While confidence plays a crucial role, the ability to notice and connect seemingly unrelated things emerges as a key aspect of effective humor in sales. So, whether you're a golden retriever enthusiast or just looking to add some lighthearted surprise to your sales arsenal, join us as we explore the art of the ricochet and learn how to turn dead leads into living, laughing, and buying customers. Join us for this episode, “Ricochet Your Way to Sales Success: The Power of Humor.”
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Welcome to a special episode of the Market Dominance Guys podcast, where we dive deep into the power of nurturing relationships through multiple conversations over time. In a world where many salespeople focus on quick wins and low-hanging fruit, our guests today reveal why playing the long game is the key to achieving true market dominance.
Join Corey and Chris while they explore the insights of sales experts like Marc Hodgson, who shares his strategy for building a massive queue of relevant conversations, and Chris Beall, who explains how data gathered from ongoing prospect interactions becomes an appreciating asset. We'll also hear from Jim Graf on the cascading effect of conversations, Ron Brooks on the importance of mastering the art of sales dialogues, and Chris's conversation with Sushee Perumal on the art of "tapping the bells" to find the perfect fit.
Whether you're a seasoned sales professional or just starting out, this episode will provide you with actionable strategies for mastering the craft of sales conversations and nurturing long-term relationships with your prospects. We hope you gain a lot of ideas from this episode, "The Conversation Queue - Nurturing Sales Relationships for Market Dominance."
Episodes included in this topic-driven collection:
EP199: Conversational Alchemy - Transforming Sales in the Age of Cheap Outreach
EP85: When the Time Is Right, the Magic Happens
EP36: Celebrating a win isn‘t anything, it‘s just preparing for the next thing.
EP105: Data & Trust: Your Assets in Market Domination
EP179: Conversations Over Headcount: What VCs Should be Counting
EP242 - The Minding Your Business Podcast with host, Ron Brooks
In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall explores the potential of AI-powered data analysis using ChatGPT. Chris demonstrates how this cutting-edge technology can uncover valuable insights from complex sales data in a matter of minutes, a process that would typically take a human analyst days or even weeks. By utilizing ChatGPT's Data Analyst feature and uploading data from ConnectAndSell, he's able to quickly examine the correlations between sales reps' skills and key business outcomes, Chris showcases how AI can help identify the most critical factors influencing pipeline generation and financial success. This eye-opening episode is a must-listen for CEOs, CROs, and CSOs looking to leverage the power of AI to make data-driven decisions and optimize their sales strategies. Join Chris as he delves into the future of sales analytics, revealing surprising findings that could revolutionize your approach to sales training and coaching. Join us for this episode, "Your New Data Analyst BFF Uncovers Surprising Sales Insights.
Key points and timestamps from the episode:
(00:01:37) Chris Beall introduces the topic of using ChatGPT to analyze sales data and uncover insights.
(00:02:39) Chris shares his experience working with ChatGPT to write a book summarizing Market Dominance Guys podcasts in just two days.
(00:04:20) Chris discusses using ChatGPT for a pricing exercise at ConnectAndSell, balancing customer ROI and company profit.
(00:04:55) Chris explains his plan to use ChatGPT to analyze the correlation between reps' skills and business outcomes.
(00:07:37) Chris walks through the process of uploading data to ChatGPT and having the AI analyze the columns and data structure.
(00:08:34) ChatGPT identifies key columns relevant to the analysis, including activity metrics, conversion rates, and skill scores.
(00:19:49) The correlation matrix reveals that asking for the meeting has the strongest correlation with positive outcomes, while professionalism has a surprisingly low correlation.
Keep listening for the analysis results:
The regression analysis shows that 24.1% of the variability in direct amounts is explained by the combined skill metrics.
The breakthrough score has a significant negative coefficient, suggesting that higher breakthrough scores might be associated with lower direct amounts.
Conclusion:
Chris emphasizes the value of using AI for rapid, unbiased data analysis to gain insights and make data-driven decisions in sales.
Welcome to this special Market Dominance Guys compilation episode featuring highlights from some of our most downloaded episodes in the first quarter of 2024.
In these segments, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by expert guests Shane Mahi and Helen Fanucci to explore critical topics for sales and marketing leaders navigating the evolving landscape of go-to-market strategies, data-driven targeting, and the impact of AI on authentic human connection.
You'll hear eye-opening insights on the future of software development in the age of generative AI, why conversations are the often-overlooked key to unlocking your total addressable market, and how to coach reps effectively by providing immediate feedback.
Helen shares her framework for leveraging proprietary data to identify your best opportunities and align resources accordingly. The discussions also examine the challenges of territory assignment and the power dynamics of sales leadership.
Shane and our hosts dive into balancing the power of AI tools like ChatGPT with the irreplaceable value of genuine, trust-building conversations. And you won't want to miss Shane's story of how combining the entrepreneurial operating system with AI helped him rebuild his business in record time after previous setbacks.
These clips from Chris, Corey, Shane, and Helen will help you learn how to position your organization for market dominance through the right mix of data-driven strategy, technological leverage, and authentic human engagement.
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Full episodes for this segment:#10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots#9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech?#8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype#7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales#6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting#5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity#4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching#3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power#2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator#1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One
In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall unveils the ultimate sales KPI: pipeline dollars generated per rep hour. This metric is a game-changer for CROs, CFOs, and CEOs looking to optimize their sales efforts and drive business growth. Chris explores the importance of measuring and maximizing this KPI, sharing insights from ConnectAndSell's own data and revealing the significant potential of a well-executed market dominance program. He breaks down the different types of attribution, ideal conversation and meeting rates, and optimal prospecting hours per week. Whether you're a sales leader aiming to improve your team's performance or a C-suite executive seeking to understand the economics of your sales efforts, this episode will help you discover how pipeline per rep hour can help you take your company's revenue generation to new heights.
Corey Frank and Chris Beall are once again joined by Fred Mondragon for this final segment from their visit. In the first two episodes with Fred, the guys covered the topic of The Seductive Shadowboxing of CRM data - Fit vs. Intent, Then the other side was discussed - Intent, Fit and the Future of Sales intelligence.
In this final segment, the trio explores how Rev's AI-powered platform is helping sales teams "find the zipper in the weasel suit," transforming weasels into top-performing pigs. Fred explains how Rev's "special purpose AI" leverages vast amounts of data to help reps identify and target their ideal customers, while Chris emphasizes the importance of engaging in trust-building conversations. Corey sees the immense potential in combining Rev's AI targeting with ConnectAndSell's powerful sales acceleration tools to solve the challenge of "Who do I go after next?" Join us for this episode, "Finding the zipper - helping weasels become top-performing pigs."
About Fred Mondragon:
Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford.
Links from this episode:
Fred Mondragon | LinkedInThe Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AICorey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by special guest Griffin McGowan, a recent college graduate navigating the world of sales job hunting. The trio delves into the challenges and opportunities faced by young professionals seeking to launch their sales careers, with a particular focus on the crucial role of mentorship. Griffin shares his experiences interviewing with various companies and the valuable lessons he's learned, while Chris and Corey offer insights on what employers look for in new hires and the skills needed to succeed. The conversation also explores the idea that interviewees are not just looking for a job, but are essentially "hiring" a boss or mentor to guide them through their professional journey. Packed with wisdom gained from years of experience, this episode is a must-listen for recent grads, mentors, and interviewers alike. Join them for this episode, "New Grads: You're the Product, Choose Your Buyer."
Links from this episode:
Griffin McGowan on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Welcome back to the second part of our insightful conversation with Fred Mondragon, where we continue to explore the intricate world of sales intelligence. In our previous episode, the guys discussed the significance of prioritizing fit over intent when targeting potential customers. However, the most successful sales strategies understand that fit and intent must work hand in hand to achieve outstanding prospecting results.
Intent data has become an indispensable tool for sales teams seeking to identify and engage with prospects actively looking for solutions to their challenges. By analyzing online behavior, intent data offers invaluable insights into a prospect's buying readiness. When combined with a deep understanding of customer fit, sales teams can unlock the full potential of their prospecting efforts.
In this episode, Fred shares his expertise with Chris and Corey on effectively integrating intent data with fit-based targeting to create a powerful, holistic approach to sales. They examine the best practices for leveraging intent signals alongside demographic data, ensuring that you're targeting not only prospects who are ready to buy but also those who are the right fit for your solution. Join Chris, Corey, and Fred as they dive into the fascinating interplay between intent and fit, and discover how this synergy can help you achieve unparalleled success in your sales efforts. Listen to episode 218: Intent, Fit, and the Future of Sales Intelligence."
About Fred Mondragon:
Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford.
Links from this episode:
Fred Mondragon | LinkedInThe Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AICorey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Is your sales team seduced by intent data, only to end up shadowboxing with poor-fit prospects? In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, hosts Chris Beall and Corey Frank explore a game-changing alternative with guest Fred Mondragon, CRO of GetRev.ai. Discover how "exographics" - AI-powered insights into how companies operate - enable sales teams to efficiently target ideal customers from the very first mile. Learn why fit beats intent when it comes to maximizing sales efficiency and dominating your market. If you're a CEO or sales leader looking to slash wasted effort and turbocharge your prospecting, don't miss this deep dive into GetRev.ai's revolutionary approach. Tune in now and point your reps in the right direction from the start in this episode, "The Seductive Shadowboxing of CRM Data."
About Fred Mondragon:
Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford.
Links from this episode:
Fred Mondragon | LinkedInThe Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AICorey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Corey Frank and Chris Beall share eye-opening insights from their recent marketing conference experience that every CSO and sales manager needs to hear. Chris uncovers a startling truth: nearly all MarTech tools are based on the misguided belief that you can't achieve success by simply calling prospects and having meaningful conversations. He challenges this notion head-on, emphasizing the immense power of genuine dialogue in building trust and gathering valuable information.
Our Market Dominance Guys also explore the critical difference between a mere phone call and a true phone conversation, revealing how these conversations can dramatically amplify your downstream marketing efforts. This episode is packed with actionable insights that will help you leverage the power of conversations to dominate your market and drive sales success. Listen to episode 216: Conversations, the Kryptonite of MarTech?
This episode wraps up our conversation with Corey Frank, Chris Beall, and Shane Mahi. Throughout this series, the guys have delved into the profound impact of AI on sales, the evolving role of human expertise, and the transformative potential of AI in reshaping businesses. They muse on the future interplay of AI and the craft of sales. Corey champions niches - and the need to summon specialists. And we, the artisans, must elevate our skills. Chris predicts more earthshaking disruption for software developers than sellers. And Shane sounds warnings that agencies lean heavily on human effort today. Soon enough AI shall permeate their ranks.
Our craft endures turbulent seas, yet we shall reach new fortunes with nimble navigation. Mine your own insights from these philosophic titans who've logged countless hours of bold outreach fueled by devotion to their calling. Stay tuned for part 3, where they unveil actionable guidance to navigate what's next for our noble profession. “EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots.”
Here is the full series.
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
The guys are back with sales visionary Shane Mahi as we dive into the vital facets of authenticity, ethics, and trust in the world of sales. As sales leaders, you know these elements are crucial for fostering customer loyalty and closing those pivotal deals. Shane elaborates on how transparency and being genuine have led to exponential sales growth for him over the past months. They also investigate AI's emerging impact and why interpersonal skills remain vital, even with advancing technology. This forward-looking discussion offers invaluable wisdom on steering sales teams through a shifting landscape. Whether you aim to amplify results or spearhead AI adoption, you will gain insight from Shane’s real-world perspectives. Join us as we continue unraveling the keys to ethical and successful selling in this next-level episode, "The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity."
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Artificial intelligence is transforming sales, whether we're ready or not. In this episode, we dive deep on questions sales leaders have about leveraging AI amidst the hype and uncertainty. What’s driving adoption? Where can bots add value now vs. someday? We debate ethical considerations and the threat of/or replacing human jobs.
Our guides, Chris and Corey, are joined by Shane Mahi, now Chief Partnership Officer at AI startup mega.ai. Shane shares insights from the AI frontlines on what’s realistic today and the autonomous sales agent vision of tomorrow. Shane shares the hard-won insights he's gained through making over 650,000 sales calls and landing more than 30 major clients. In this 3-part series, we'll cover Shane's journey along with the role of AI in sales.
Join us for episode 213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
We're missing Corey Frank today, but we still have a meaty solo episode for you from Chris. Chris is diving into a perplexing sales practice - coaching cold calls. Perplexing because everyone talks coaching up, yet so few actually do it. He explains why this type of coaching is critical yet so scarce, why both the coach and the call induce fear, and how to actually make coaching work. With compelling examples from golf and hostage negotiations, Chris breaks down the elements of an effective coaching framework. The key - simplify each call into bite-sized pieces and target very specific first failures to drive rapid gains. This episode overflows with accessible coaching advice for sales leaders. Join us for this Market Dominance Guys Episode, “Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching.”
As sales leaders, we're ultimately responsible for revenue growth. In part two of this must-listen episode, Helen Fanucci and Chris Beall reveal how to build an asset that drives results: pipeline power. Learn why phone and conversation intelligence beats guesswork. Discover how to arm your team with the right data to fill your pipeline with serious opportunities. We dive into the critical questions you must ask on every account to accelerate sales cycles. Helen emphasizes that trust builds between companies early on, so executives must engage alongside reps. Tune into part two for tangible tips on avoiding over-strategizing in favor of authentic conversations. You’ll pick up tactics to leverage intent signals, stop playing pipeline games, and create alignment around valuable targets. The key takeaway: with closed-loop feedback, your pipeline can become a core competitive advantage that speeds up cycles and boosts revenue.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Building a target account list is the critical first step for any successful sales strategy, yet it remains an overlooked and haphazard process at many SaaS firms. Rather than leave targeting up to individual reps, centralize it to boost efficiency and revenue growth. As Helen Fanucci, founder of Pipeline Power, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank emphasize in this episode, outdated title-based targeting must give way to responsibility-based keyword searches on LinkedIn and intent signals from job profiles. They delve into common missteps sales leaders make, from over-researching targets to allowing bloated pipelines and territories that hamper productivity. Tune in to learn how to focus your targeting, embrace open territories, have meaningful conversations, and build trust with the right prospects from day one. You’ll pick up tangible tactics to scale pipeline and accelerate deals. Listen to the first half of this discussion, Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Sales Navigator.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Closing sales requires trust, and trust is built through conversation. As Chris Beall notes, in B2B, the gateway to ongoing dialogue is the discovery meeting. Yet, too often, sales teams fail to view the meeting itself as the product they are selling. As Bruce Lewolt highlights, sellers must frame their sincere care for the customer’s success. This care is best conveyed interpersonally. By securing that initial meeting, the sales rep opens the door to relationship-building. As Jennifer Standish explains, delivery matters as much as content in piquing interest. With the right tonality and empathy, a seller can turn cold calls into warm introductions. James Thornburg and Matt McCorkle build on this idea: the meeting is a gift, saving the prospect time and money. When sellers view appointment-setting as customer service, their conviction carries through. The discovery meeting enables the sales conversation to continue. Building trust starts with booking that first meeting. Join us for episode 209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting.
This episode has segments from the following full episodes featuring Matt McCorkle, James Thornburg, Corey Frank, Chris Beall, Jennifer Standish, and Bruce Lewolt.
EP139: Your Product Is the Meeting
EP122: Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure
EP115: The Enemy of Your Message Is Drift
EP113: The Cold-Call Kiss of Death
EP108: Sales and the State of Apprehension
In our brave new AI-augmented world, navigating tech integration while retaining that human trust factor remains a tricky balancing act.
So who better to provide expert guidance than our sage of sales, Chris Beall? Today our very own ChatGPT steps in as co-host for Corey to pepper Chris across the AI-sales trust landscape. Should we unleash these bots to comb leads? How do we mitigate client skepticism? Does transparency enhance trust? Chris distills hard-earned wisdom on these questions and more.
From specific use cases in training and process efficiency to ethical dilemmas around transparency, you’ll gain critical insights for smoothly integrating AI without severing those all-important human connections. Chris even gazes into the future, weighing engaging versus alienating roles for our robot friends.
Chris offers actionable advice so we can deploy AI judiciously while cementing bonds of respect and rapport. Time to bridge that tech-touch gap in this episode, Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales
Discovery calls are typically auditory-only affairs, but this episode of Market Dominance Guys reminds us that we are physical beings having a full-person experience. As Chris emphasizes, you don't converse with a brain in a jar, so why disconnect your body from the persuasive power of discovery? From micro-prancing, to miming props, to the hepatic value of gestures and pauses, your physical presence profoundly impacts connection, emphasis, and revelation. Body language not only expresses what pure words cannot, but it heightens the musicality and truth-emergence Chris describes as “letting the silence breathe.” So start envisioning your prospects, get your blood pumping, and bring your whole self into alignment with the call. It’s time to let your full-bodied discovery create breathing space for truth. What non-verbal techniques will you incorporate next call?
This is a continuation of last week's discussion with Henry Wojdyla and Shawn Sease. You can listen to the previous episode here.
EP206: Mastering the Art of Silence How Pauses Can Improve Discovery
Links from this episode:
Shawn Sease on LinkedIn
Henry Wojdyla on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch49
ConnectAndSell
What's the secret sauce to nailing discovery calls? Is it your intricate questioning strategy? Your ability to build quick rapport? We're exploring an underappreciated element today - the power of tonality.
From a Marine drill sergeant's verbal shock and awe to real estate power players commanding eight-figure deals, our esteemed guests get vocal about vocal dynamics.
Join Chris, Corey, and their guests, Henry Wojdyla and Shawn Sease as they battle assumptions, pregnant pauses, and the occasional restraining order. You'll hear straight from the horse's mouth why tonality eclipses terminology and how losing your cool in discovery can cost you deals. If your team overlooks today's vocal victory tips, you'll condemn them to tone-deaf discovery call defeats. Listen to this episode: Mastering the Art of Silence: How Pauses Can Improve Discovery
Links from this episode:
Shawn Sease on LinkedIn
Henry Wojdyla on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch49
ConnectAndSell
Many a promising startup has seen their lofty dreams dashed on the rocks due to lacking a bridge to cross that yawning chasm, separating early adopters from pragmatic mainstream buyers. Chris has contended with this treacherous chasm across multiple expeditions. Those early adopters feature prominently in startup lore - enthusiastic pioneers who relish new technology, derive career perks from kick-the-tires experimentation and care little about reputation risk. Yet they differ radically from that mainstream majority awaiting pragmatic proof. Chris invites you to draw on the profound insights of Geoffrey Moore (Crossing the Chasm) to help identify those visionary partners, extract maximum value from your earlyvangelists, and ultimately package your technology into a must-have product. Join Chris for this episode, “Finding Your Beachhead Beyond The Chasm.”
Reading list from this episode:
Out of Crisis - W. Edwards Deming
Theory of Constraints - Eliyahu M. Goldratt
Crossing the Chasm - Geoffrey A. Moore
Full episode transcript below:
----more----
(00:23):
Today, Chris unpacks one of the toughest challenges for startups, navigating the chasm, separating enthusiastic early adopters from pragmatic mainstream customers. As an admitted disciple of Jeffrey Moore's pioneering work, Chris aims to spare fellow innovators from the common downfalls along the journey to achieving industry dominance. He'll examine how to identify key early evangelists and high value visionary partners to fund the next grueling leg after the chasm. Safely across, he'll share hard-won experience on transforming novel technologies into a must-have solution for pressing business needs. Charting this course carefully can turn scrappy upstarts into mighty market rulers. Chris offers guideposts so more pioneers can find safe passage from fledgling startup to titan. Join us for this episode, finding Your Beachhead Beyond the Chasm.
Chris Beall (01:23):
Hey everybody. Chris Beall here with Market Dominance Guys podcast. And hey, Corey's not available right now, and I thought I'd just put something in the can here and see whether anybody's interested in what I have on my mind today. So today I thought I'd talk about something really important that you can just go out and get a book and read what it's all about and figure it out, but maybe you want to think through some of the things that are unappealing about it that will make you not want to do the right thing when it's time to do the right thing. So this is for folks who come up with new technologies, with new solutions. So if all you do is you sell old stuff, probably isn't particularly relevant to you. But if you're selling a new technology, if you've invented something, or even if you've just come up with a twist on something and you think it's really valuable, important, could make a difference in the marketplace, could solve some real problems, you have a real problem.
(02:19):
And your real problem is that people are generally repulsed by new technologies. In fact, in general, people are repulsed by just plain old new stuff. Once it's been established and other people are doing it, they're buying it, they're using it, they're getting good value from it, yeah, then it's all pretty easy. But that's a big barrier to get through is that psychological aversion that people have to doing something new or trying something new, especially if it involves parting with something that they already have that would normally be money and always time, and then you could throw in risk to their reputation and well, it only gets worse. So now you've got something new, you're a member of the innovation economy, you want to come out with something, and I'm going to assume it's B2B. Why? Because I don't know anything about B2C.
(03:08):
I think I've mentioned this before. I'm clueless as a consumer and as a result, I don't think that I'm qualified to say anything about businesses that sell to consumers. I divide my Shark Tank episodes into two kinds. The ones where they're talking B2B, which is almost none of them, and the ones where they're selling to consumers where I can sit back and relax and think, "I don't know anything about this. These sharks seem to, but I don't." But B2B, I've been doing that a long time and I'm a disciple of Jeffrey Moore. The book in question is Crossing the Chasm. There's another book called The Gorilla Game if you want to get into the fantasy of actually doing what we suggest here on Market Dominance Guys, which is dominating markets. So The Gorilla Game's all about dominating tech markets with a product, not with a service.
(03:57):
If you want to dominate with a service, you become a king or a queen of that particular market, but you can't be a gorilla. And Jeff explains this in great detail in both of those books. They are wonderful reads. I must have read Crossing the Chasm now five or six times. If you really want to get everything you need to know, you could consider Crossing the Chasm as a starting point. You could consider Deming's Into the Crisis, so if you can read the crunchiness of it, he is a pretty grumpy guy when he wrote that book, but I would've been too. And then of course, all of the Theory of Constraints books, Eli Goldratt and everything, he tried to teach us about how systems essentially have one constraint and we should pay attention to it. Well, that actually goes together here with Crossing the Chasm.
(04:44):
And the reason is the constraint in the innovation economy tends to be just above the top of the funnel in the repeatable part of your business. This is the part that is across the chasm, not the part that is before the chasm. Let me see if I can explain this. So I would draw a picture here, but it's a podcast, so I have to draw the picture with words. So imagine you have a typical sort of normal distribution, a normal curve. You've seen them all before a bell-shaped curves, they're called. So it's got a left side and a right side and a middle. They kind of get steep for a while and then it kind of levels off the top and goes down. So most folks think, "Hey, this is how markets adopt. They start with a few people at the beginning. Those people get some good out of whatever it is. Maybe they talk it up. Maybe you get to refine your product a little bit and you go smoothly from having hardly any customers to having a little more, a little more. You establish yourself."
(05:41):
And then eventually you get past that midpoint in the hump and you're in what's called the late majority, and then you're in among the laggards. That's actually a great place to be. It's hard to be displaced there, but you are going to where there are fewer and fewer customers over time. So you might have to come up with something new. Eventually, we all have to come up with something new. So the number one thing to know about that curve, that simple, smooth curve, is that it's a lie. And by a lie, I mean it's a curve that has a hole in it, it has a gap where you get to a certain point climbing up the side where you're getting more customers and more revenue in particular, and suddenly it all goes away.
(06:21):
It goes to zero and it goes to zero for a while. And in fact, if you don't do anything about it, it goes to zero for a while. That's long enough that now you're out of business. So the chasm is the part of the curve that for very repeatable, predictable reasons, has just got no buyers in it. And since it has no buyers, it has no revenue. And if you keep trying to sell in the chasm, so to speak, where there's no buyers, you will run out of money because your overhead, which we've discussed before, is like a racehorse. It will eat while you sleep, it will eat up your entire company, and you'll try more and more crazy and desperate things to get those non-existent buyers to buy your product. And this is referred to my world as thrash, and you will thrash yourself to death trying to sell to folks who just aren't there.
(07:17):
Now, why are they not there? Well, it's because the folks who buy early who are divided into two distinctly different groups that must not be mistaken for each other are radically different from the ones who buy just a little bit later. So when you have a new technology, there are always folks that are interested in it. They're called technology enthusiasts. They love new stuff. They love it because A, it fits their personalities and their background. They know something about everything. B, they like messing around with stuff to see if they can make it work or break it. And C, they derive their own career and political power from being the sacrificial lambs out there trying things out that may or may not work and generally don't. So they have a special feature. Their reputations cannot be harmed by checking your stuff out your new thing. So they will check your new thing out.
(08:12):
This produces a false signal to you if you're not careful that says, "Oh, folks are interested in my new invention, my new product, my innovation." Now there are folks interested just for a funny reason, they're interested in trying it out, learning about it, kicking the tires, breaking it, tearing it apart, hooking it up to other stuff to see if it breaks that, and then they're going to move on. So are they good, bad, or indifferent? Well, they're really important. So you've got to engage with them and you got to engage with them early and you got to make them pay a little bit, otherwise they're not going to take it seriously. And then you have to pay attention to what they have to say. They're actually providing you with free advice, free consulting, in fact paid, and they'll pay you to tell you about your product and they'll actually try to use it.
(09:05):
So you have to kind of overpay attention to them, but also let them mess around and they'll give you insights and you need to use those insights intelligently in order to improve your technology, which at this point you will probably think is a product, and it's not a product yet. It's a product when it's in the hands of somebody who uses it for pretty much what somebody just like them has already used it for, it's useful for some job, it does a job. At this point, the job to be done is kind of amusing the tech enthusiast and letting them learn what's out there, what works and what doesn't. So you've got to sell to them. You got to sell to them right away. You need a certain kind of salesperson. Generally it's the person who innovated the product or somebody on that team. So feel free to do that.
(09:59):
Go sell to them. It's great. You'll have a little bit of growing revenue. Don't make the mistake of building out your revenue plan for the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years based on the growth in the tech enthusiast market. That market burns up quite quickly. And if you find yourself going from one to another to another company trying to find the tech enthusiast, you're selling to a market that has no future, and that's a mistake. So as long as you've got a few, it's moving fast, you're getting great feedback, stick with them. But meanwhile, you've got to look for your other kind of pre-chasm customer, and that is somebody called a visionary customer. And a visionary customer, it's a funny name actually, I've never quite liked this name. It's a customer who has a vision of how your technology, not your product, but your technology can confer upon them competitive advantage.
(10:59):
And why is that a vision? Well, they're having a vision of changing the competitive landscape or the strategic landscape in their business, in their market where they play. So it might be something that fills a gap for them that's just showed up in the world because now everybody has it. Today that gap would be generative AI. This is why generative AI is generating such a big buzz in the world and such high valuations for so many companies is not that the tech enthusiasts will pick it up. They will, which is fine, but that it provides new potential weaponry for somebody in a specific industry who if they could just figure out how to use gen AI with the rest of what they're doing, they could change the strategic landscape. That is they could get in a superior competitive position. The internet was like this once there was a point in the life of the internet when every internet company had a valuation that was based on the fact that lots of these visionaries, these customers that were going to seek competitive advantage, we're going to need help.
(12:06):
And so if you could help them either with a product or a service that leveraged the internet all to the good, so you're seeing that very same thing with generative AI. We've seen it before with e-commerce. We see it all the time in what I call hard engineering with advances in material science. You see it with battery technology. This is done all the time where something new shows up and the reason it goes hype crazy is actually a pre-chasm reason. It's not the tech enthusiasts who will fool around with it. They'll do things like I'm a better one when it comes to generative AI. We wrote a book using ChatGPT about market dominance, but it was really just to experience what is it like to use ChatGPT to write a book. So I made sure to keep it short time-wise, 6:30 in the morning on a Saturday until 11 o'clock on Sunday, the book had to be written from scratch or at least from transcripts out of this podcast and published on Amazon in three formats using ChatGPT to tell me how to do that.
(13:06):
Okay, so that was tech-enthusiast stuff. That doesn't really drive that early hype in a new material or new crazy thing that you can do like, well, ChatGPT. What does is the fact that there are always lots and lots of companies out there in competitive positions where vis-a-vis their big competitor, they think they could make a difference if they were first to adopt and use something new as a weapon. So with your visionary customer, you're selling to their vision of dominance or maybe their vision of escaping the dominance of somebody else. If they're number two in a market, they got to be trying to figure out something. So I have an example from a long time ago where the folks at W. W. Grainger, big catalog company with MRO products recognized, "Hey, this internet thing means that our book, our catalog book no longer needs to contain only say 90,000 products. It could contain hundreds of thousands, but how are we going to organize them in a way that we can manage them and by the way, help people find them, which is the claim to fame in our red book?"
(14:15):
So they were willing to do some very strong financial shifts in order to get ahold of some technology, in this case, it was catalog technology. I happened to be the guy selling it and they could do some big things. They thought if they could get the data together about all these products and then organize it in a way that people could find it and buy it, but also keep it up to date because that's a big problem when you're publishing a book, you do it in annual cycle, but the internet says you have to do it all the time. So we ended up doing a pretty big deal with them at a company I was with called Requisite Technology is a pretty big deal.
(14:52):
It ended up being probably out of the box 14, $15 million at a time when we had essentially maybe, I don't know, a million dollars of revenue. So should you do business with these visionaries? Absolutely. How many? A good number is one, that's a pretty good number in that you focus on really helping them achieve their competitive goals, and you do it at a reasonably great sacrifice to yourself of some of your resources. So you put together a deal that's got elements in it alike, believe it or not, source code, which no one likes to sell, but hey, if somebody needs competitive advantage, they need proprietary control. So one, make sure this isn't somebody who's actually representative of your future market. This is a smart one-off, and you're going to do a deal that makes a lot of money, which you need unless you like going to venture capitalists and taking their money and having them sort of run your company for you one way or another.
(15:50):
So you need a lot of money in order to cross the chasm. So how do you load up on it? Well, you do a visionary deal with somebody in which they get proprietary control within a specific domain of how it is that you do things. I'll call this your source code. It could be your secret formula, but it's something along those lines. They also need intellectual property, so you need to cross-license or license patents to them if you have them and know-how, they need help, so you're going to have to provide them with your best engineers. At what price? About one and a half times market because they're going to get very, very special value out of your very, very special people. How long? Probably a year, year and a half. That's normally long enough to execute on one of these sort of visionary plays.
(16:40):
And then what about exclusivity? Yeah, you got to offer that too if you want to make this work because you're offering a competitive advantage so you can't turn around and offer it to their competitor the next day. So let them name some competitors and have a period of time and a field of use and put that in the contract that you won't sell this deal to those named competitors for this period of time within that field of use. And that way you've provided all of the elements for a competitive advantage for that visionary. And assuming that they're big enough and this is a strong enough play for them, they will pay you a lot. How much is a lot? 10, 20, $30 million is possible on deals like this.
(17:21):
I know that sounds somewhat fantastical with the new technology, but especially if things are hot and you have information that's special, that's distinct, that's rare about how to make some new technology work in a particular industry and you think that somebody could really do well if they had control over it and you don't think they represent your future mass market, then go ahead and do one of these.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. ConnectAndSell, welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their impossible whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com. And we're back.
Chris Beall (18:25):
These deals generally take about six weeks to do. You need to make it clear that your board of directors has told you to do a deal like this with one of three or four identified players, all of whom are competitors in that industry. You're going to do one deal and the phrase that you use is that everything's on the table. They will respond very positively if in fact this is something that appears to be of competitive advantage and otherwise they'll leave you cold. So it's a really easy qualifier. You won't get a lot of tire kickers on this one. So you do that deal and now you have to split your company in two. So one part pays a great deal of attention to your new visionary customer, really a partner at this point. And another part takes the feedback about your technology and thinks, "Hmm, where could we go in order to establish our technology packaged appropriately to do a job as a product?"
(19:23):
And that where we can go is across the chasm. The beauty now is that you have hopefully enough money to cross the chasm because as I said before, there is no revenue down there in the chasm. It's very, very dry. There's the bones of companies that have crossed or tried to cross the chasm and didn't make it. You're going to have to walk by them and you're going to shudder a little bit, but you got to realize, "Hey, over on the other side is the magic of the early market." It's the early market post chasm or early majority, and you're looking for somebody with a broken mission-critical business problem that you're pretty sure that your product along with whatever services are need to make it work, this is called a whole product, and it's all put together can actually solve that broken mission-critical business problem.
(20:16):
Now, everybody has these. They're all over the place. I mean, we'll never run out of broken mission-critical business problems. They sort of like rabbits, right? Every time something happens in the world that's new or different or somebody buys somebody or something is being obsoleted out or whatever, something's broken, it could be an internal problem that they have. It could be a problem with their go-to-market. It could be a problem in their supply chain. It could be a problem in their financial supply chain. It could be a problem with people. Who knows? You know because you know what your technology can do, but you're going to have to package it up as sort of a paper product that claims to solve this problem. Then you need to go to talk to folks who you think have this problem. And with some of them it will resonate and they'll say, "I actually have this problem."
(21:07):
Now you have an interesting problem. So your product isn't quite perfectly ready for prime time, so you need to take the minimum version of it and you need to round it out with services, make it a whole product, and then sell it to somebody. For how much? Well, you're actually going to price it down, and this is very counterintuitive to a lot of people. You're going to price it down because you're essentially buying the first customer's willingness to work with you because they're working for you and they are going to point out everything about your product that doesn't actually solve their problem. So you were able to describe the solution, but you weren't able to actually implement it quite perfectly. It's really hard to get everything right in a product and they're going to teach you, but by the time you're done, you'll actually have a product that is probably sellable to the number two person, and more importantly, you will have a reference.
(22:04):
And across the chasm, we tend to sell by reference. That's why it works. That is the slightly more cautious person will buy what the slightly more desperate person bought if it worked for them. And everybody knows who that is. Everybody knows who the lead dog is. So now you go from one to another to another. You get your product more complete, you get your references more robust, and eventually word of mouth starts to take over. And at that point, your market is probably pretty small. You want it to be pretty small. The edge of your market is everybody who will talk about it and refer somebody else to it as a solution to their broken mission-critical business problem. And so, hey, you just keep going until that market starts to run out. But well before that, you identify an adjacent market that is similar enough in terms of the broken mission-critical business process that you can solve, but different enough, maybe a different role.
(23:07):
So for instance, say you solve a problem in sales, you might want to go talk to customer success or say you're verticalized within banking, you might want to go talk to folks in insurance. You'll know how to do this. You just have to decide when to do it, otherwise you'll sort of plunge into a chasm of your own making. And after that, it is reasonably straightforward. Now you're into, I'll call it standard issue market dominance, like we talk about all the time on this show. That is you make a list, you call the list, you talk to people, you build trust, you recognize that only 1/12 of your market's in market in any given point because they've already solved the problem too recently using something else and you have to wait till the replacement cycle for their solution kind of plays out. And now you go and you dominate that market.
(23:57):
But if you don't get into the market, you don't get to dominate it. So while you can employ brute force techniques like we recommend at Market Dominance Guys, make a list, call the list, talk to people, build trust, have meetings. Also have folks come to your website because you talk to them, have them answer emails because you talk to them, have them connect to you socially because you ask them to and you just talk to them. All that good stuff you get to do, but you want to do that on across the chasm side primarily, and you'll feel it. It gets easier and easier and easier if you're across the chasm. If you're not, it just kind of stays the same. You can actually build very large pre-chasm companies. They sell weapons, not tools, but you've got to play the game a little bit differently.
(24:46):
You're actually doing an endless series of these sort of little visionary deals. They're little ones. They're not as big because you can't extract the big money for competitive advantage from folks that are competing with each other. It sounds like you could, and some have figured out how to do it. I mean, Google does this with Google Ads. They'll sell you the ad words or they'll help you with them, and then six months later, your number one competitor gets powered up by Google to compete with you with better or more powerful ad words that somehow yours have gone a little weak and back and forth it goes. It's very rare. If you do one of those, more power to you. You can own jet airplanes of your own and do all manner of things and have silly names for your products, and it'll all work out really great.
(25:30):
But if you're more of a standard issue, "Hey, I've got a new product or a new idea for a product with magic technology and I am hoping to take it to market," just remember you need to divide your market into two big pieces, pre-chasm and post chasm. Then you need to divide the pre-chasm into two pieces, tech enthusiasm, visionaries, then you got to make a very uncomfortable deal with one of the visionaries that's sufficient to fund your chasm crossing and you just saved your company from a whole round of financing by doing that, and you're still in control.
(26:03):
Then you need to make that list. But you've got to know that you solve a broken mission-critical business process before you make the list. Then you make the list and you get on something like ConnectAndSell, or you work with people like at Branch 49 or whatever, and you talk to people in order to get more and more folks to pay attention to the fact that, "Hey, there's a solution to this thing. And by the way, a bunch of people just like you have already bought that solution and they're quite happy with it."
(26:33):
So that's the end of this little episode. A little lesson. I feel like I've given it before on market dominance guys, but maybe not quite so straightforward away, and I thought even if I have, well, you know what they say, repetition is the mother of learning. So we just repeated it. And good luck to all of you mothers and fathers and others out there who are trying to take new stuff to market in the innovation economy. You're much needed.
Alex McNaughten continues his visit with Chris to share psychological insights that challenge traditional sales training. As an AI entrepreneur, Alex emphasizes confidence should be the priority when onboarding salespeople, not technique. He advocates first building enough confidence just to "pick up the phone” and draws parallels between sales and coaching - both guide people through "the emotional journey to consider something new." Alex tells his story about overcoming fear in sales and boxing, noting most training overlooks the emotional side. He concludes that "so much sales training, particularly cold calling, is wrong or missing" these emotional components.
Alex’s perspective as an AI builder brings a unique view on honing the emotional skills crucial for sales success. He advocates pushing sales leaders to transform training to address confidence and psychology first. Join them for this episode, “Confidence Beats Technique in Sales Training.”
Links from this episode:
Grw.ai
Branch49
ConnectAndSell
Alex McNaughten on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Full episode transcript below:
----more----
(00:21):
Alex McNaughten continues his visit with Chris to share psychological insights that challenge traditional sales training. As an AI entrepreneur, Alex emphasizes confidence should be the priority when onboarding salespeople, not technique.
(00:36):
He advocates first building enough confidence just to pick up the phone, and draws parallels between sales and coaching. Both guide people through the emotional journey to consider something new. Alex tells his story about overcoming fear in sales and boxing, noting most training overlooks the emotional side.
(00:55):
He concludes that so much sales training, particularly cold calling, is wrong or missing these emotional components. Alex's perspective as an AI builder brings a unique view on honing the emotional skills crucial for sales success. He advocates pushing sales leaders to transform training to address confidence and psychology first. Join him and Chris for this episode, Confidence Beats Technique in Sales Training.
Chris Beall (01:26):
Yeah, so I think a CS team would be very interesting. And he loves trying new stuff. He's kind of like Corey in that regard, and I think CS might be as big a play as sales for Taylor.
(01:39):
In fact, I mean CS is the game in the world of SaaS. CAC is like, well, okay, great. But are you going to hold them, right? I know when somebody looks at a company, they don't start out asking, what's your effectiveness at acquiring customers? They ask, what's your net retention rate?
Alex McNaughten (01:57):
I think CS becomes more important in a tougher environment because it's much easier to sell more to your existing customers, and upsell them, rather than trying to bring on new ones for a lot of companies right now.
(02:10):
Thanks for teeing up this podcast, that was fun. 30 minutes goes quickly when you're just talking. It goes so fast. You think 30 minutes is a long time., It's really not. It flies past.
Chris Beall (02:20):
It is quick.
Alex McNaughten (02:24):
It's good, though. Because...
Chris Beall (02:25):
By the way. Yeah, I think that it's really interesting. We sometimes do these and we'll go an hour and a half, or something like that. And it's really interesting where the conversations end up going. We almost never go where we think we're going to go, which is great. So we don't think very hard about it, but they go by fast. They really do.
Alex McNaughten (02:42):
Yeah, that's the best part about it. It's often when a conversation just naturally flows. Chris, I just want to say a massive thank you for your support. You said some really lovely things about what we're doing, and I get the sense that you genuinely believe and are excited by what we're building. Which is really cool, and it's the early supporters that I think really make a company. It's those folks who kind of get it before 90% of the world gets it. I really appreciate it, and thank you. Let's keep going on the journey together. We're going to build something big.
Chris Beall (03:13):
I feel very fortunate that we got to talk in the first place. Just watching the demo, most demos don't do much for me because they're about buttons. And buttons aren't very interesting. Push this button, this thing happens. And they're generally about feeding the monster or making pretty pictures, neither one of which is interesting to me. You feed the CRM system or whatever all day long, and then you ask it for pretty pictures, and then you pretend the pretty pictures are going to change your life and they don't. That's kind of the history of enterprise software kind of in a nutshell.
(03:45):
We do something at ConnectAndSell that actually does something. It's a doing thing, it's not a looking and thinking and whatever thing. And what I was drawn to in the simple demo was the emotional content.
(04:01):
And my view of sales is pretty simple, which is we're facilitators of an emotional journey.
Alex McNaughten (04:07):
Yep.
Chris Beall (04:07):
That someone else needs to go on in order to be comfortable enough that they can consider the possibility of something new. And that's what we do in sales. And I don't know why not everybody gets it. It's like Anthony Iannarino gets it. You read Elite Sales Strategies, that's what it's about. The Jolt Effect guys, they get it. It's all producing the reality and the perception of risk on the part of the other person, the potential buyer, so they can move forward. You're actually an enabler of something that can't be done without your help.
(04:43):
I used to teach people how to rock climb. And to be a modern rock climber, even in the gym, the number one thing you have to learn how to do is trust the rope. And experienced climbers can't go back in time, back to when they didn't trust the rope. So they start in the wrong place. They start with technique.
(05:05):
And they start by saying, do this, do that. Try this, try that. But the thing you need to do, and I think this is identical to what we do in sales, is you need to help that person who is properly naturally afraid of falling. It's not incorrect to be afraid of falling.
(05:23):
I can tell you from experience, I once took a little fall on a mountain of about 800 feet. The chances of walking away from them are pretty close to zero. It was not something I would ask somebody else to give a try to. Why don't you go jump on that chunk of tilted ice and see what happens when you go head-first into the rocks at 70 miles an hour?
(05:44):
And so I knew as a young rock climber that the fear of falling is a good thing, not a bad thing. But when I taught people, I would just teach first to trust the rope. And the way I'd do it is this, go up one foot, step off.
(06:00):
It's kind of silly, right? Well, I wouldn't have gotten hurt without the rope. Yeah, well, you're going to learn to trust the rope. We do that until it's boring. Then go up two feet, step off, go up three feet and step off.
Alex McNaughten (06:09):
That's interesting.
Chris Beall (06:10):
When you're so bored with that, then you're ready to have your mind open to what's the most effective way to rest? So let's go up to that three-foot level, and let's try different ways of resting. Because the other thing you're going to be afraid of is running out of gas. Because you're going to run out of gas when you're climbing. That's the first thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
(06:35):
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world.
(06:54):
From crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire tam, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branchfortynine.com.
(07:20):
And we're back.
Alex McNaughten (07:22):
It makes you rethink learning journeys. My experience with boxing is quite similar. Is that I wish more time had been spent upfront on overcoming the natural fear of being punched in the face. Because it's very jarring, because you start with all the technique, and the punches, and the movement. And then you move to that, and you suddenly sparring. But your natural instinct is to shut your eyes when you see a punch coming at you. Of course it is.
(07:53):
But I wish that, when I was younger, someone had spent time with me on that fear, because it would've made everything a lot easier later on. And I think most learning journeys are like that, and I think we leave the emotional side out of it.
Chris Beall (08:08):
And in sales it's all we're doing. We're helping somebody overcome their correct natural fear of trying something.
Alex McNaughten (08:21):
Well, so is coaching.
Chris Beall (08:22):
We treat it like it's not correct, but it is correct. They should be afraid. They should be concerned.
Alex McNaughten (08:27):
But that's exactly the same as coaching. I think your description of sales as the emotional journey to help someone consider the possibility of something new, I think replace the word sales with coaching, and it's exactly the same.
(08:40):
And I think that's where most people go wrong, is they focus far too much effort and attention on knowledge, and product features if they're teaching someone something, and they actually forget that, especially when you bring a new person into a sales role, probably the number one thing you want to focus on is actually just their confidence. It is arguably the first thing you want to do, is just get them confident enough to pick up the phone in the first place.
(09:09):
And then you can worry about the specifics of technique and product features, et cetera, and that builds over time. But yeah, anyway, that's given me a thought. That's kind of got my mind racing actually, in terms of conversational design. But that's going to take me somewhere.
Chris Beall (09:28):
By the way, do you know about how we do our flight schools? It's so unusual. We do exactly what you said. So we run a thing called flight school, and flight school takes reps who are hesitant, uncertain. Maybe they think they're pretty good, maybe not. But it's about cold-calling.
(09:46):
We deal first with the issues around fear by making it clear at the very beginning, most of the fear is actually on the other side. You're the scary thing. The reason that you're afraid of cold calling is you're afraid of being scary. You're afraid of being thrown out of the village. You have a deep, primal fear of being exiled.
(10:09):
And so there's no place in the environment of evolution where we would interrupt a stranger, because there were no strangers. We have no mental, emotional machinery that prepares us to be the bad thing. Which is, in this case, the invisible stranger interrupting somebody.
(10:28):
And the way we overcome that is first we accept that's who we are. Second, we accept that experts have actually figured out a way to turn that fear the other person has into trust, and to do it a hundred percent of the time using the same approach. So that now your journey is not about your product or anything, it's just about, can I say something in seven seconds in such a way that causes a stranger that I've just frightened to trust me?
(11:01):
That's a much more interesting job then, go sell a product, or go set a meeting. And it's really fun to learn how to do it. I teach people how to do a dumb thing with the cork, hold it sideways, wine cork, bounce it and have it stand up. They're not aware it can be done. Once they see it done, it becomes interesting, right? It's a dumb little thing. But it's a thing that, when you see it, you go, ooh, that can be done.
(11:25):
And when you see this, seven seconds happen repeatedly ... So we coach for two-and-a-half hours with full conversations, by the way. But we only coach it for seven seconds. We let them fall on the rope over, and over, and over until they get confident in the rope. Which is, the rope is, I can get somebody from their fear to trusting me in seven seconds a hundred percent of the time.
(11:51):
At which point the rest of this is now just, can I get them curious about taking a meeting? There's not much left.
Alex McNaughten (11:58):
So interesting, right? We talked about this last time and you just described it. Again, it just makes me think that so much of sales training, particularly the cold-calling phase, is wrong. Or just missing a key part of the equation. But this has been great. Thank you.
The guys are tackling the big question on every sales manager's mind: Could AI replace me? With wisdom and reassurance, Corey and Chris explore the power of Taylor, an AI sales coach created by grw.ai CEO Alex McNaughten. Taylor provides a judgment-free space for reps to vent frustrations and surface red flags managers miss. As Chris explains, Taylor's conversational skills elicit "confessions" from reps. And for managers worried an AI could do their job better, Alex gently says: "The goal here is to make leaders better...not replace them." So breathe easy sales managers, and get ready to be 10-50X more effective. With the power of AI augmentation Sales Managers will be unstoppable. Join us for this episode, AI Coaching Conversations Elicit Unfiltered Rep Feedback.
About Our Guest:
Alex McNaughten - CEO/Founder - Grw.ai
With a background in B2B sales for both Kiwi startups and US tech giants, Alex is passionate about increasing the level of professionalism & performance in B2B selling globally. Prior to Apprento, through his advisory firm, he trained hundreds of founders, executives and sales professionals and worked across over 130+ ANZ businesses from pre-revenue startups like SafeStack Academy, to growth companies like Rocos to large multinationals like Vodafone, helping them to reduce their sales costs, speed sales cycles, maximize win rates, build out teams, expand into new markets and ultimately generate $10s of millions in new revenues.
Links from this episode:
Grw.ai
Branch49
ConnectAndSell
Alex McNaughten on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Full episode transcript below:
----more----
(00:23):
The Market Dominance Guys are tackling the big question on every sales manager's mind. Could AI replace me? With wisdom and reassurance, Corey and Chris explore the power of Taylor, an AI sales coach created by grw.ai, that's G-R-W-A-I, CEO Alex McNaughten. Taylor provides a judgment-free space for reps to vent frustrations and surface red flags managers miss.
(00:47):
As Chris explains, Taylor's conversational skills elicit confessions from reps. And for managers worried an AI could do their job better, Alex gently says, the goal here is to make leaders better, not replace them. So breathe easy sales managers, and get ready to be 10 to 50 times more effective. With the power of AI augmentation, sales managers will be unstoppable. Join us for this episode, AI Coaching Conversations Elicit Unfiltered Rep Feedback.
Corey Frank (01:22):
And here we are once again. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. It's episode 200 and something. We'll just say 200X episode of the Market Dominance Guys. As always, we have the sage of sales, the prophet of profit, and the Hawking of hawking. Chris Beall to my left or right, depended on where in the audience you are sitting right now. And we also have a guest. So Alex McNaughton, fresh over the pond. Do you call the Pacific the pond, or the Atlantic is the pond. I don't know what the Pacific is. But anyway, he's somewhere in the land of the Hobbits in New Zealand. I don't know if you were in Auckland, but welcome to Alex McNaughton, the CEO of Grw.ai, and he's going to talk to me and Chris about his company and some of the changes and trends that he's been seeing. So first off, good afternoon, Chris. Good afternoon, Alex. Chris, how you been?
Chris Beall (02:15):
I'm been good. I'm down here south of you right now, in southern Arizona. Not as far south as Alex. He's so far southeast, he's an antipodal upside-down kind of guy. I'm looking to see the blood rushing to his head anytime soon.
Alex McNaughten (02:28):
About as south as you can be in the world.
Chris Beall (02:30):
Yeah, yeah. And still have a nice climate. That's what's kind of weird. How you guys get away with that in New Zealand is entirely beyond me. As you know, Corey, my sister Theresa once executed the most brilliant business I've ever seen. She flew to New Zealand to the South island. She bought a horse, a retired racehorse, and tacked to go with it. Rode it around for three months. A product of that was a trail horse. Trail horses are worth a great deal on the South Island. She sold said trail horse for enough to pay for the entire trip and then went up, spent two months on the North Island, hitchhiking around among friendly people. I still think if you want to see bootstrapped, she was wearing boots.
Alex McNaughten (03:15):
That's awesome.
Corey Frank (03:17):
So Alex, tell us a little bit about Grw.ai and what kind of rundown [inaudible 00:03:23] did you stumble into meet a guy like Chris, besides LinkedIn, of course.
Alex McNaughten (03:27):
Well firstly, guys, thanks to have me on the podcast. It's good to be here. How did I meet Chris? I think this was a podcast introductory conversation or just a LinkedIn conversation, that I've been running a podcast for a few years and it's brought me to some interesting places and brought me to some very interesting people.
(03:49):
And in terms of Grw.ai, we are very early days. We're four months into this journey. I've got two very, very smart co-founders, Alistair and Dan. Alistair's a machine learning Masters from Cambridge University, and Dan is a full-stack engineer and data scientist by trade. And we are building a performance management platform for sales teams actually focused on performance. And really this came about because I've worked with about 150, give or take, B2B SaaS companies predominantly over the last four years. I accidentally built a go-to-market advisory and then I built a sales training and recruitment company down here in New Zealand. And we noticed that they were all using, I guess what you'd consider traditional HR performance management platforms, but they weren't aligned to performance, had nothing to do with what was being measured and actually weren't very helpful for sales teams specifically.
(04:40):
So we started building Grw to give leaders and managers better insight into their teams, help them manage more people, and really just help them be better leaders. And then the final thing I'll say on that, for now anyway, and you might have some questions, is we also noticed 95% of sales leaders have had no sales leadership training, so they're really struggling and I'm really passionate about this. Sales is, we're the people who bring the business and keep the lights on. And when you've got 95% of the people leading those teams who haven't been supported in the best possible way, that's a recipe for disaster.
Corey Frank (05:15):
Chris, we've spoken about this several times. Particularly I think, Alex, I know you're a fan of something that's near and dear to our hearts here at the Market Dominance Guys is particularly after the top of funnel, the discovery process. And Chris has some interesting things to say about where a lot of folks are focusing on top of funnel, which is a good place to start. But it's also, Chris, you talk a little bit, much more elegantly than I about the discovery and how critical it is to be trained there, to have feedback there, to have visibility there. So Chris, and I know you've taken a look a little bit about Alex's platform, but first off, for the audience and for Alex to level set, your opinions on the discovery and where some of the needs are there that perhaps Alex is addressing with Grw.
Chris Beall (05:57):
Yeah, I think that one of the goals of any sales organization should be to shove the bottleneck of the entire company down into discovery. It tends to sit just above the top of the funnel. So we kind of built this whole podcast around the notion of, hey, you can beat everybody if you can solve that one problem because now you actually have got increased flow and improved targeting and the ability to go out and characterize markets and expand where it makes sense to expand and withdraw of where it makes no sense to go.
(06:26):
We have some episodes about discovery, and we call it the confessional. So the idea of discovery is to have the other person get in an emotional state where they will confess to you what's really going on with them. And if that happens, then you immediately get an increase in flow rate through discovery and an increase in quality, and probably a decrease in cycle time. So when we're looking at systems, we care about those three things a great deal, throughput, quality and cycle time, and we address all of them by making discovery into a proper confessional where somebody is comfortable confessing.
(07:05):
What Alex and his team have done, which is fascinating to me, is they've made the sales manager, sales rep one-on-one into something that, by taking the sales manager out of it, this is really quite interesting and ironic to me. By taking the sales manager out of the first level discussions about deals, which is what reps tend to focus on, they actually have come up with a way of eliciting a confession from the rep. And it's not just a confession about how they're doing in the deal. I mean you can do deals well or poorly or whatever all day long, but as we can still call her the fetching Ms. Fenucci, even though she's now the Chief Revenue Officer of Mediafly and kind of too professional to be the fetching, but well, sorry Helen, we're just going to fetch you up just a little bit. She reminded me this morning when I got her coffee. She said, "You're the one who's doing the fetching." I said, "Yes, I fetch you and I pour."
(08:01):
But it's interesting, when I was observing Alex demoing to me, it reminded me of a very old program, not in how it's built, it's very, the freshest generative AI, super smart, getting smarter about the conversation, but the conversation has a great deal of lightness for the rep.
(08:19):
The very first word my eyes fell on when Alex was demoing to me was the word frustration. The rep was frustrated at how a deal was going, right? Well, that's not actually a deal term. You being frustrated about a deal is not part of the deal. This is your problem, not his problem. But the love your team approach says, no, your problem is your manager's problem. And your emotional problems, your life problems, your direction that you want to go, your ambitions, how you feel you're being supported, who's taken the notes. Remember when Helen told us once she took notes when her people would be presenting internally to the big bosses so they could focus. Even though she is the boss, she's taking notes, a little servant leadership there. All that stuff comes together.
(09:06):
I believe Grw.ai has come up with something really interesting. It's a way to get information compressed at about a 30 to one ratio into the brain of the sales manager by being able to get the extract from the interaction between the sales rep and the bot in question, which I'll let Alex talk about. But then there's another thing that happens, which is there's a softness about that relationship because the rep doesn't fear the bot. And so the rep starts telling their emotional truth to the bot. And there was a program called Eliza written many, many years ago that is a Rogerian non-directive therapist written in a hundred lines of code or something like that. And everybody I know who used it, and I had hundreds of people use it because I was so interested in it, ended up confessing to it. And that was a hundred lines of code.
(10:01):
So there's some hidden magic in interacting with a bot that it feels enough like a human, but isn't your boss. That you can actually relax and tell it the truth. And you know me in the Lonely Minds Club, right? CEOs live in the Lonely Minds Club because everybody lies to us. Well, sales managers, everybody lies to them too. So they're not well-trained and everybody lies to them. It's a tough combo. I don't know. What do you think about that, Alex?
Alex McNaughten (10:29):
Yeah, so just to give a touch more context, as part of our platform we've built Taylor, and Taylor is an AI powered performance coach specific for sales teams. And the sales teams have one-on-one conversations with Taylor on a regular basis with our early design partners, that's every two weeks.
(10:47):
And the behaviors we've noticed from the team is super interesting. We've seen people spend up to 45 minutes talking to Taylor. On average it's about 20, but we've seen up to 45 minutes in a single session. And there's an unbelievable amount of rich data that come out of those conversations. You imagine you're a sales manager with a team of 10, the reality is you don't have the time to do one-on-one across the team and get to that level of detail all the time.
(11:14):
So I think, Chris, your description of how it compresses information for the sales leader 30 to one, that's probably fairly accurate. We haven't measured the exact compression, but in terms of time compression, it probably is something like that.
(11:26):
And the other things we've noticed that's really interesting is even though the sales team know that their leader, and even their leader of leaders, will see insights from these conversations, they're extremely honest, if not more honest than they would be with a real human. So yeah, it's super exciting and I'm pumped because what we're able to do now is stuff that typically I would be doing as a person going into organizations to help them. Technology is allowing us to scale that, but do it better because the great thing about Taylor AI powered coach is memory across all conversations, across all the team, and it never forgets anything. So it can actually be more effective than a human in a lot of respects.
Corey Frank (12:12):
How did you overcome the empathy? As we've spoken about many times, when you're giving feedback, you can't just give the, Chris and I had a conversation yesterday, we were talking about the old English aphorism where it's soft words, hard arguments, and that it's not versus hard, sharp words. But I bet that process to make it accessible, to make it connect emotionally from an empathetic perspective on the feedback was a challenge. I find that fascinating to find out how you've evolved that and tested that.
Alex McNaughten (12:44):
So it's moved very quickly. So we started with surveys a few months ago, was where we started. The problem is you don't get very good data and we realized that that was not good data and horrible experience for people to interact with, which is more important, reason why we moved away from that. And then really we've just built, tested, learned, iterated again and again and again over many, many, many cycles. And then also drawing from my experience because I've personally coached hundreds and hundreds of people. So just trying to embed it with as much of the learnings I've had through my 11 years in sales and then sales coaching.
(13:20):
So it's probably a mixture of, I guess, some psychology, some science, and then a little bit of art in terms of the testing and learning and the feel of it, to get it to a point now where it's able to coach in a human way and give feedback in a way that isn't jarring, which often having a conversation with an AI can feel quite jarring. And I'd say that's something that we are, I wouldn't say we've a hundred percent nailed it, but it's moving in the right direction fast. We're only kind of five months in.
Corey Frank (13:54):
Well yesterday, or I think this morning, there's the news here, in the States at least, Alex, that Bobby Knight was a very famous, very successful basketball coach at the college level for many, many years. One of the all time winning college basketball coach. And he had a very sardonic sense of humor, demeanor, very aggressive when it came to discipline with his players. He's frustrated, throws a chair across the court, grabbed one of his players by the throat. Nothing that we endorse as sales leaders of course. But very antagonistic and very Lin Subardi-esque to raise the bar of his folks. His famous phrase was, "I want it more than you do and that's a problem."
(14:35):
And Chris and I talked yesterday about a lot of leaders who are all about conviction, conviction, conviction, right Chris? And it's just boom, boom, boom. And I would imagine from a coaching perspective, Chris, you have some thoughts on this about introverts versus extroverts in sales, in that fine line, Alex, to build a platform that can talk to both types of sales personas. Chris, anything to add to that from the perspective of find that nuance of a coaching mechanism that speaks to both styles?
Chris Beall (15:06):
Yeah, I think there's three things in play here. One is Bobby Knight had an advantage. You couldn't very well transfer from the team you were playing on to some other team. And so you were kind of stuck, if you wanted to get into the NBA or you wanted to even have a successful college career, your foot was nailed to the floor and you were pivoting in circles, which people do in basketball a lot. And he'd really be pissed off and tell you were acting like your feet were nailed to the floor even when you were moving as fast as you could.
(15:34):
So in the modern world, salespeople can go work for whomever they want and the best ones can work, literally just write their ticket and do whatever they want, wherever they want. So you start acting like that and you're going to get down to the ones who like it, who like that kind of abuse, which is there are people who like that kind of thing, but not most high performers.
(15:54):
Secondly, I think this business of introverts and extroverts, I think introverts make better salespeople in general if they can bring energy, and energy is orthogonal to conviction. You don't need to persuade somebody just to be energetic in a conversation. You can be very present, very energetic, and yet very open-minded about what is the best thing to happen next. You don't need to be driving towards your end. And one thing we know about everybody, and it's salespeople and customers and everybody else, is when you push on them, they push back. They might push back overtly, they might push back covertly and they may wait and push in the way in which the back that they're pushing on is yours and they're doing it with a knife.
(16:41):
So there's a lot of issues that get buried in this short-term desire to get it done right now. And I think that it's one of the things I really liked about, again, I had a short demo with Alex, but I loved thinking about how an introverted salesperson who's really, really good would have fun exploring the ideas that Taylor is willing to bring out and would be encouraged. One of the things that... you got to check this thing out, Corey. Taylor actually says encouraging things to you, but only when Taylor thinks they're the things that you're doing that makes sense. And you're always doing something that makes sense, or you wouldn't be in the deal. Most sales managers never do that. They never tell you what you're doing right. And so there's an encouragement factor that I think works across a broader range of sales personalities, including the best personalities, which are high energy introverts.
Susan Finch (17:37):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
(17:48):
ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live-qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com.
(18:12):
And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Alex McNaughten (18:18):
There's a few things I'd add to that. I think coaching in its purest form is not telling people what to do, it's helping them to get to the answers on their own, typically through smart questioning. So I think that's kind of really the starting point for a lot of what we've built here was with that kind of lens of coaching.
(18:39):
And then what Chris just said there around validation is super important. And this was a surprise to us. We didn't think that people would feel good with an AI-powered bot effectively saying to someone, "Hey, well done. That was smart, that was a good thing to do." But we've noticed that a number of the early users have been telling us, and they were surprised themselves that it actually felt good. It felt good to get validation from something that wasn't human. And that's probably partially due to the fact that, like you said, most of them don't get that from their boss regularly.
(19:15):
And it's not that their boss doesn't care, it's that their boss is stretched. Sales leaders are so stretched, they have way too many reports a lot of the time that they can handle. They don't know much about leadership in general, other than what they've been able to intuit over time.
Corey Frank (19:33):
Alex-
Alex McNaughton (19:34):
Yeah, jump in.
Corey Frank (19:35):
You bring up a great point. I'm sorry to step on your feet. I'm curious as a sales, am I threatened by this? How do I make this my friend? How do I amplify the results, because my gosh, what if my people, God forbid, they like AI better than they like me because I'm a sales manager who got into this because I have a high need for approval. Maybe I wasn't the best closer, and for the insecure folks in the audience like me, how do I deal with that? This sounds too good here to put me out of a job, potentially.
Alex McNaughten (20:04):
No, so the goal here is to make leaders better and make their experience as a leader better for them as well. So the early customers and leaders who are using this are saying, this is helping me make better and faster decision. It's helping me uncover things I didn't even know were going on in my team, but I can actually fix, and it's helping me to know where to focus on and who to focus on across my team. Who needs the help most at an individual level and how can I help the team as a whole.
(20:33):
And then it also from a feeling threatened perspective, I think, and Chris actually put it to me, he said, and I'm going to butcher exactly how you said it, but you said something along the lines of, "There's an inherent fragility in relying on technology for everything in a team environment," and things that can sometimes unexpectedly happen, and that's what the human there is for, is to deal with the unexpected. Technology can't solve absolutely everything. And I fundamentally believe that there is, even in an AI world, there is a space for great leadership. And I think technology actually just helps them be 10, 20, 50 times better to their team and ultimately drive performance. And that's probably the final thing, is a sales leader who's getting better results out of their team and hitting a better number themselves, I think that's going to feel good irrespective of whether you've got an AI coach in the mix supporting you.
Corey Frank (21:27):
Yeah, yeah. Well we know that Tony Stark was made a much better superhero with the voice at his head and the Jarvis that was rattling around his brain.
Alex McNaughten (21:36):
That's it, right?
Corey Frank (21:38):
[inaudible 00:21:38]. So I can see it.
Alex McNaughten (21:40):
That's it. Maybe that's the analogy. We should use the Ironman suit for sales managers.
Chris Beall (21:44):
Yeah, we already have it for sales reps, so you can borrow it from us. That was actually something that came out of serious decisions. One of their senior analysts about 10 years ago came over physically for an hour and a half with us. And at the end he said, "You guys have an Ironman suit for sales, don't you?" Well, it goes fast and lets you shoot stuff that you want to shoot, so I guess so. I don't know, does it smell good when you get out of it? We don't really know. That's another question entirely we have deal with.
(22:13):
Corey, you bring up a really good point. The question is, does this feel threatening to sales leaders? I actually suspect it won't. And in fact, I think there's a sales leader's version of this, of Taylor, where the questions that you're asking, the challenges, the frustrations are about the team themselves. And you are thinking of doing things like the things like are in the 17 chapters of that Love Your Team book where the question is, should I go this direction or that direction? Does this need this meeting or this conversation or that conversation?
(22:45):
My guess is, Taylor's going to expand fairly quickly to handle those conversations too. And nobody likes confessing to their boss, nobody likes being made fun of. In the world of sales, by the way, there's a lot of athletes that come out of trash talk land and they think trash talking is just like having fun with folks. Your entire team might not love being trash-talked at, to be called names or whatever it happens to be that was a big deal in the court or on the field where it just seems natural to folks who kind of grew up in competitive athletics. Well, not everybody in sales is a former competitive athlete from the field. In fact, some of the best in the world never did any of that stuff. They're very different kind of people and they don't take well to that particular style of interaction.
(23:38):
And one of the things that I think is so interesting about Taylor is, Taylor will challenge you clearly. Have you thought about this, but have you thought about... What do you think about this? You're doing this, but have you considered this? Right? And most sales leaders aren't comfortable enough in their own skin to say stuff like that. And if they came out of the world of trash talk, they can't resist having that little dig. So I think there's a lot here to be said for, think of it in the large, AI is a safe person to talk to, a bot is a safe person to talk to, because they can't fire you and they're not going to make fun of you.
(24:16):
And those are two pretty big deals when it comes to people feeling good about their own job. Because in sales, you've got to really feel good about yourself in order to help somebody else along the emotional journey they need to go on in order to have both real and perceived risk reduction to the point where they'll take the next step with you. And if you're feeling risk yourself as the sales rep, that feeling of risk is going to transmit itself directly to your prospect and they're going to be less likely to move forward with you because it doesn't feel right.
(24:52):
So where does your confidence come from? Well, it can't just come from inside. I mean, going to a sensory deprivation tank sometime and see how long it is before you're hallucinating like crazy. We don't stay sane because of what's going on inside of us. We stay sane because of what we're getting from the outside. And getting consistent positive affirmation from the outside that's not silly, is actually very helpful for all human beings to maintain their sanity and their confidence.
Alex McNaughten (25:20):
There's something in that, and that's one of the real motivators and drivers for me with this business is I've noticed over the years and across all these teams that I've just seen genuine human pain and frustration at a team level, at both leader and individual contributor level. And I think we can do better and I think that's the exciting thing that technology can unlock. And the salespeople who've been using Taylor have been telling us things like, this is positively confronting. This is helping me think about things, this is helping me learn. And it's a place I can go vent as well and let off some steam.
(25:52):
So it's really exciting. I'm so pumped for the next 10 years of business technology, one, what we are doing, but two, what other kind of opportunities we're going to be able to see in this space and this world of generative AI. So yeah, I think teams will fundamentally change and I think it can be a real catalyst for teams to change way for the better than where they're at right now.
Corey Frank (26:14):
Well that's wonderful. I agree. And what I hear both of you saying is that my job is relatively safe and I should not fear the reaper just yet from the AI bots taking over my job.
(26:24):
Okay, well we're going to leave it there. So Alex, thank you so much for wrapping some time. We'd love to have you as a standing guest here at the Market Dominance Guys, since I imagine the data that the team is going to compile here over the coming months or so is going to be incredibly valuable to everybody in our profession. So for Chris Beall, this is Corey Frank from the Market Dominance Guys.
Alex McNaughten (26:49):
Thanks for having me.
In the last episode, our Sales sultans, Corey and Chris tackled the folly of chasing too many shiny objects. Now, Chris shares pragmatic insights on building resilient teams for the marathon versus the sprint. Should staff know the messy truths from day one? Chris believes people need full commitment to the mission.
Does solidarity trump balance sheet bravado when attempting bold new initiatives? Chris says, "I think people love to look at stuff because looking at stuff is lower risk than doing stuff. Doing stuff is very high risk. You could fail.”
As Corey noted, presentations often overlook the people who drive innovation. Corey reminds us, “The people elements, traits, personas don't live on the balance sheet.” Here’s a question posed, "When you go to a potluck, do you only eat the food you brought first?" Listen as they tackle tough topics like letting go of personnel clinging to the past versus embracing the unknown future in episode 202 of Market Dominance Guys, “ Keeping Teams Future-Focused and Failure-Ready.’
Full episode transcript below:
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Susan Finch (00:05):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off-ramps of driving to the top of your market, with our hosts, Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch49.
(00:21):
The last episode, these sales consultants, Corey and Chris, tackled the folly of chasing too many shiny objects. Now, Chris shares pragmatic insights on building resilient [00:00:30] teams for the marathon versus the sprint. Should staff know the messy truths from day one? Chris believes people need a full commitment to the mission. Does solidarity trump balance sheet bravado when attempting bold new initiatives? Chris says, "I think people love to look at stuff, because looking at stuff is lower risk than doing stuff. Doing stuff is very high risk, and you could fail."
(00:53):
As Corey noted, presentations often overlook the people who drive innovation. He reminds us the [00:01:00] people elements, traits, personas, don't live on the balance sheet.
(01:04):
Here's a question posed. When you go to a potluck, do you only eat the food you brought first? Listen as they tackle tough topics, like letting go of personnel clinging to the past versus embracing the unknown future, in episode 202 of Market Dominance Guys, Keeping Teams Future-Focused and Failure-Ready.
Corey Frank (01:30):
[00:01:30] What would you suggest, as far as the level of candor, at an early stage, with your people, all the people, about what's our most profitable product or least profitable product, what's fungible and what's not, how we make money, do you believe and have you evolved and have you seen other scenarios where they want to just keep it to the C-suite, and you're just a team member, and here's your myopic [00:02:00] vision? Or do you believe, and success is contingent on everybody knowing exactly what they signed up for, if they're going to go off the earth on search of these new worlds?
Chris Beall (02:10):
Oh, I believe deeply. For me, it's at the interview process. The first time I ever said this to anybody in an interview, I was probably in my early 30s, and I said, "By the time you get to me, it's assumed that you're competent. They don't send incompetent people to be interviewed by me. [00:02:30] Well, that doesn't happen, so therefore, you're competent. So I'm not going to ask you any questions to assess your competence. What I want to do is make it clear to you what you're getting into, and it's going to be your choice whether you want to get in or not. And I'm good either way. So I know you're good enough to do the job. Now I'm going to tell you about the real job, and the real job is doing really hard things."
(02:53):
"So one, we're likely to fail, so you have to accept that we're likely to fail. Why do I think we're likely to fail? Because [00:03:00] otherwise, we wouldn't be doing this. Somebody else would've already done it who is less skilled, determined, insightful, clever or whatever than us. So we're going to do something hard, and hard things generally fail, so you're signing up for failure. So recognize that. But we're going to persist. We're probably going to have a good time. So two, you're signing up to have a good time. Why? Because otherwise, we can't do something so hard that we're likely to fail. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work [00:03:30] to come in all glum and morose, and everything's got to be great, otherwise, I got a bad day. I don't want to hear about your bad day. There are no bad days in the sense of going after the mission. We're just going to do it. So we're going to be enthusiastically wrong every day. That's going to be our thing, enthusiastically wrong every day. We're going to say, 'If we're not having fun, we're not taking this seriously enough,' So we're going to do that."
(03:53):
"And third is, we're going to make a weird sacrifice. I've made it. You'll have to make it too. [00:04:00] That is, we're going to do uncomfortable things when it's time to do them, and we're going to lay them out, what they are. So some of them are we don't get to sell to the people we want to sell to, and some of them are we don't get to build the stuff we want to build, and some of them are, we don't get to go fast when it's time to go slow. They're like that. There are those sorts of things. And we're signing up to do those things when it's time to do them."
(04:24):
"You might notice they all have an interesting feature. They're all in order to reduce [00:04:30] the risk of failure because this is likely to fail. If we don't reduce the risk of failure, we're going to fail for sure. So your career, during this period, is going to be built entirely on our success, not on the skills you gather, which you will gather skills, it's magic, it happens, or the people you meet, but you will meet people. You'll have networks. None of that stuff is the purpose of what we're doing. If our purpose is to make you better, we would've had to have been [00:05:00] bigger already and on a mission where we can't fail, but that's not this mission. This is a mission where we're likely to fail."
(05:08):
So here's the test, then I tell people this, and people are appalled still to this day. If you come to me at some point, and you say, "Hey, I want to go to a conference in order to increase my skills, meet some people or do whatever," I'll remind you of this conversation. The second time you do it, I'll fire you. They go, "Oh." It's like, but if you want to go on a mission with some folks and try to do a hard thing, [00:05:30] you won't die after all, everybody probably will advance professionally because people respect people who do hard things. They do. And you learn real stuff doing hard things.
(05:42):
But the hardest of the hard things are making the transition from one stage of the company to the other. And there's only one person who's going to declare that that's something that has to happen. That's me. And you're accepting that coming in. I'm the guesser. When we must guess, and this is always a guess, I'm the guesser, [00:06:00] and you have to accept that my guesses are the truth. And it's corrupt. I get it. But mathematically, there's no other way to pull it off. Just can't be done. Somebody's got to be the guesser, and you're talking to him.
Corey Frank (06:16):
It seems that when you look at a business model, a company, in X years, we're going to have the hockey stick. We're going to have the J-curve. We're going to have all this, that. Without those elements, what you just described [00:06:30] of the type of people, without even talking about it, because there's many investment presentations you and I have been part of where it's all about the product. It's all about the market. It's all about the margins. It's all about the executables. But it's rarely about the people besides the little bubbles of the three founders or the person who's in charge of your innovation or the person who's in charge of your delivery. But you don't get into that level of persona, that level of first-born, [00:07:00] second-born, last-born, that dynamic of risk-taker, thar be dragons type of courage. And it seems like there should be in your world, correct?
Susan Finch (07:13):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
(07:16):
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts and employee successful sequencing that is fresh [00:07:30] enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right cold call screenplays to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire team, Branch49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49.com.
(08:00):
[00:08:00] And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Chris Beall (08:03):
It's kind of the whole game. It's kind of the whole game. I look at our company, the thing I'm really proud of about our company is the average tenure of people who are leading our company or doing important jobs is 11.2 years. My tenure is just over 12 years.
Corey Frank (08:19):
At a SaaS software company.
Chris Beall (08:20):
At a SaaS software.
Corey Frank (08:21):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Chris Beall (08:23):
And the reason is not that we pay them extra. I think we do okay. The reason is they signed up for the mission. They're serious [00:08:30] about the mission. The mission is the mission. We're actually trying to help with this big problem, which is it's really hard to make businesses work, to make the innovation economy work, unless folks trust each other, and they won't trust each other to do that thing that they need to do, which is the risky buy, unless that trust is produced somehow consistently through conversations. That's our mission.
(08:57):
And it's fun to be part of. We don't have a [00:09:00] mission statement. We don't talk about the mission, blah, blah, blah. It's literally in our blood. At this point, it's in the organization's blood. And so somebody who might want to work with us, they might sense that, but what we know is there's a bunch of stuff we don't have to worry about. There's a bunch of stuff we don't have to think about. We can operate at the level of minute details about things like, oh, with fast phone numbers, the score [00:09:30] of 50 officially means that we don't know anything about that number, but it doesn't actually mean that it's just a little below 50.1. It actually has another meaning. Therefore, when we use it with the customers, we should do this instead of that. It frees us to do that kind of work all day long.
(09:47):
And it's that kind of work that allows that business model to be animated with reality. It's not revisiting the numbers. I mean, I think people love to look at stuff [00:10:00] because looking at stuff has lower risk than doing stuff.
Corey Frank (10:05):
Lower risk than doing stuff, yeah.
Chris Beall (10:07):
Doing stuff is very high risk. You could fail. So you have to be very enthusiastic about failure to actually embark on doing things many, many times a day.
(10:16):
I think I've told the story on the podcast. I'll tell it again. My eldest, back many, many, many years ago, came to the office on a bring your kid to the office. And we sat through a long meeting in which there was a lot of numbers, [00:10:30] and we were walking over to Starbucks afterwards, and the snow was falling through the air. And she stopped and said, "Dad, can I ask you a question?" I said, "Sure." She said, "Do they really think that by talking about the numbers, they're going to change the numbers? And I said, "Yes, they do." She thought about it for a second, said, "That's very sad."
(10:55):
There's such a temptation to look and think that [00:11:00] looking at where you are in the progress that was predicted by the business model is going to tell you something about what you need to do. What you need to do sits right in front of you, as long as you're not doing stuff that takes you backwards. But if you allow your salespeople to sell to your previous market, the one from your previous stage, you're going backwards. The relationship with a business model of sales is there's a gate. You go through the gate. We're done with the tech enthusiasts. Now [00:11:30] we're finding a visionary.
(11:31):
By the way, your sales team can't probably help you with that. Maybe they know some people. You're going to have to do that one yourself because what you put on the table is what you put on the table. Nobody's going to be able to do it but you.
(11:42):
Now, we've gone past that. Okay, we have the remaining resources. We now have some money. We didn't have to take two rounds of venture capital. Isn't that cool? That's why your VCs will never let you do this because they want to provide those two rounds of venture capital. But now, you're cool. Hey, here's our hypothesis. This is our market. Let's [00:12:00] go get the first one. Totally new activity. Everything we did before, if we start doing that again in order to "make quota," we're going backwards. As long as we're not going backwards, all we can deal with is the details in front of us, which is problems that are friction in our mission.
(12:19):
So what do we do? Well, we address the friction. How do we do it? We name it. We characterize it. It's all theory of constraints at this point, all the way down. It's just over and over, the same cycle. How do we [00:12:30] get the energy to do it? Because we believe it's a good thing to do, and we signed up to do it with each other. That's why. That's how.
Corey Frank (12:36):
And it's not on the balance sheet. None of those people, things, traits, you, Dan, Seth, Matt Forbes, I mean [inaudible 00:12:44], none of that lives on the balance sheet in any multidimensional form, but yet it makes all the difference.
Chris Beall (12:51):
Exactly. I mean, if you were to put it on the balance sheet, you'd put it in goodwill, but goodwill is supposedly the goodwill of the market toward you. But actual goodwill is [00:13:00] goodwill of you toward the market for people you've never met.
Corey Frank (13:05):
Yeah, for sure.
Chris Beall (13:06):
It's that story you tell, and I was just in Europe, you talk to the three brick layers at the cathedral. I'm laying bricks to feed my family. That's noble. A lot of people work like that. Well, I'm laying bricks to build this beautiful work of art, this edifice, which will last for a thousand years. Okay, that's nice. I'm saving men's souls, right? What [00:13:30] is it that's driving all of you together to do the inconvenient thing of dealing with inconvenient details and broken stuff? Because all there is is broken stuff. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't be fixing it.
(13:43):
Every day going forward, your job as the leader is to make sure that you don't go backwards. You'll naturally go forward then. So what's going to take you backwards? Your sales team will take you backwards because you compensate them to do that. So don't do that, and [00:14:00] then your business model can move forward.
(14:02):
Does it really have to follow exactly the math. Our business is interesting. I've been talking to people about it recently. It's like, well, your retention isn't high enough. Well, what's the purpose of retention? Well, to allow you to grow. Well, look at the growth. Well, you can't be growing because the retention's not high enough. No, we're actually growing. Therefore, for the way we sell, it must be high enough. But folks forget that. They [00:14:30] take the antecedents, and they go, "Oh, this has to be here." No. You can look at how it's actually progressing and ask yourself the question, "Are we acquiring more customers that we're helping in a way that they would say good things about us?" Pretty simple, pretty big.
(14:49):
And how fast is it going? It's probably going about as fast as it's likely to go given the situation and the resources we have. Hence profits, by the way, because profits are the infinite [00:15:00] investment. They're infinite. They go on for all time, as long as you keep being profitable.
Corey Frank (15:06):
And that's hopefully what your business model will continue to show. So that's a clinic, Chris, and I think we need to have a couple more episodes about that is all the things that could be in goodwill that most folks don't think about when they're building a SaaS or software company. And you hit on a lot of them, which is the people element, and certainly given [00:15:30] me much sage advice over the years when we talk about personnel. There's a good friend of this program and a good buddy of mine. His name is Eli Chmouni, comes from Neon. He's a great entrepreneur, multiple time entrepreneur, and he went to a workshop with Todd Davis, the founder of LifeLock. This may be a year or so ago. And this is the antithesis of what you're saying about the retention of folks, because hanging onto some folks past their shelf date could be a challenge [00:16:00] to say the least.
(16:01):
And he goes to this workshop with Todd Davis, and the first thing Todd Davis says, I'm paraphrasing, meets the group, doesn't do an introduction, just comes out and says, "Folks," talking to a group of CEOs, "on Monday, you need to fire that person." Everybody's looking around, and it kind of sunk in a little bit. And he says, "The fact that everybody knew and drew their mind to one person in their mind shows you that you know exactly who I'm talking [00:16:30] about, and you just needed a sign from the universe to tell you you're doing the right thing. You're going to do the right thing by having this person move on to the next stage of their career," because we've all done that, as you've said earlier, Chris, when you bring an organization up from the roots and the ground level, and you have some folks that maybe brought you to another level, but it's probably time where they [inaudible 00:16:56], and it's a very, very difficult thing. I found it in my career, very, very, very difficult [00:17:00] to hang on to folks well past their point, but it does bring the organization to a level where it stifles growth. That's another thing I'd like your comment on here before we wrap it up.
Chris Beall (17:11):
Well, there's a lot of folks who yearn for the past. They yearn for what was. I think all of us do to some degree. One of the, I would call it, the horrible things about business is it doesn't have a lot of tolerance for our feelings about the past because we have these folks out there called competitors [00:17:30] who are trying to actually provide something better than we're providing to customers at a lower price and with greater convenience and so forth.
(17:37):
And we have this odd obligation. It's an odd obligation to make a horrible sacrifice every once in a while, which is that somebody who can't overcome the draw of the past, whatever that happens to be, that pulls them in that direction, needs to stop pulling us all toward the past.
(17:58):
And I don't think there's another [00:18:00] cure for it. It's not like there's anything wrong with them. And sometimes it happens in people's lives. They just get to a point where it's like the past is more attractive than the future. At least it's known. That's better the known than the unknown. And yet, when we're building businesses, pretty much all we're doing is wrestling with the unknown. That's kind of it. And we have to do it together. And if somebody doesn't want to wrestle with the unknown, or can't, it's more like can't anymore, but we have to [00:18:30] arrange for them to go find another known.
Corey Frank (18:34):
Yeah. It's the example of when you show up for a potluck, and you and your spouse bring your dish, and you show up to a potluck, a neighborhood or a company, etc., whose food do you eat? You generally eat your own because you know what's in it. You've made it, and you know what it tastes like. Suppose an organization, after a certain point, is that way is maybe the litmus test is everybody should have a potluck. And if you eat your own food, chances are is you're certainly suspect, whether you're [00:19:00] due to maintain the organization so.
(19:03):
Well, that's great stuff, Chris. Beautiful to have you back on this side of the pond, 200 plus episodes under the belt, all kinds of stuff. We got to finish this book one of these days. Certainly, we're going to have a multiple volumes and topics. I learned so much from this, from being, as I said on a LinkedIn post the other day, the more mentally stifled version of Ed McMahon to you, the king of late nights, the king of mid-morning, the king of late afternoon, wherever it is, where people listen [00:19:30] to this podcast. So Chris, for the Market Dominance Guys, this is Corey Frank. Until next time.
Getting punched in the face is practically a rite of passage for startups with seemingly bulletproof business models. Spreadsheets might predict hockey stick growth, but, as Corey says "customers aren't formulas on a page. They're human beings who are often "repulsed by new technology". Adoption requires an emotional journey and trust, not a formula. Yet founders frequently ignore reality, believing spreadsheets will magically generate growth. Chris says this quest for an easy quota can even derail progress as "salespeople focused on quota may take company backwards" by clinging to the past. Hence leaders must prevent "retrograde motion back to what was comfortable before" by being "hard-edged on changing direction." There are no maps for the uncharted path from startup to sustainable enterprise. But experienced guides like Corey and Chris are happy to share their battle scars and perspectives. Join us for this episode, “Customers Aren't Formulas: Navigating the Emotional Journey.”
Full episode transcript below:
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Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes, speed bumps and off-ramps of driving to the top of your market, with our host Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell, and Corey Frank from Branch49.
(00:21):
Getting punched in the face is practically a rite of passage for startups with seemingly bulletproof business models. Spreadsheets might predict hockey stick growth, but as Corey [00:00:30] says, customers aren't formulas on a page. They're human beings. Adoption requires an emotional journey and trust, not a formula. Yet, founders frequently ignore reality, believing spreadsheets will magically generate growth. Chris says this quest for an easy quota can even derail progress, as salespeople focused on quota may take the company backwards by clinging to the past. Hence, leaders must prevent retrograde motion back to what was comfortable by being hard-edged on changing direction. [00:01:00] There are no maps for the uncharted path from startup to sustainable enterprise, but experience guides like Corey and Chris are happy to share their battle scars and perspectives.
(01:10):
Join us for this episode, Customers Aren't Formulas: Navigating the Emotional Journey.
Corey Frank (01:20):
And here we are. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, episode, I believe, 201, with the sage of sales, [00:01:30] the prophet of profit, the Hawking of Hawking, fresh back from his jaunt across the pond, freshly stocked with Porto and Cabernet and other assorted box wines, knowing Chris and the fetching Miss Fanucci. Chris, welcome back. Episode 201, what do you have to say about that, my friend?
Chris Beall (01:51):
Well, it's great to be back on this continent. There's all sorts of things that are wonderful here, even on the East Coast. And I'm hanging out at the Breakers, where I've learned the value of money, [00:02:00] which is no matter how much money you bring, you can't get anything of value.
Corey Frank (02:04):
The Breakers, yes, I understand they're renowned for their breakfast at the Breakers, right? Did you have a coupon, or how did you... I mean, the Breakers, talk a little bit about the breakfast before we get in our topic today.
Chris Beall (02:15):
Pretty much it's all-inclusive if you pay $64 for the buffet. And hey, I had a very nice omelet there. By the way, the service of the Breakers is really second to none. Every single person that I've talked to here is incredibly accommodating, [00:02:30] gracious, pleasant, and willing to do the right things.
Corey Frank (02:33):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (02:34):
Yeah, you stack up on Stacey's Naked chips, so guacamole and some salsa, you have the breakfast, and then you get through the rest of the day alive and bring your own wine, because the only way it's going to work either.
Corey Frank (02:45):
Great. Well, let's talk a little bit about one of the topics that you and I, I think, gosh, it's peppered throughout the Market Dominance Guys on many of our 200 plus episodes with guests or without, and that is everybody [00:03:00] has a business model until they get punched in the face. But I want to talk to you about different business models. You've been talking with a lot of private equity firms, a lot of other investors. A business model from what I was taught, and I think you probably taught me this, Chris, is above all, it should be geared to make a profit. And certainly, you want to study your competition, you want to get the right staff and get the right talent level in there, but your business model should be geared to make a profit.
(03:28):
But let's start from [00:03:30] the basics here on this. The traditional SaaS business models that are out there, they're template driven oftentimes by a lot of VCs, a lot of investors. There's a certain gate you have to go through on your friends and family, and then your seed round before you get your A round, and you have to have certain level of churn and a certain amount of continuity in the business and a price point and a cap below six months. So what do you talk about [00:04:00] when you're advising other CEOs and other investors who are thinking about investing in SaaS companies, about the business model writ large?
Chris Beall (04:09):
Well, one of the things that I keep getting reminded of is there is truths underneath all of these potential models, and they're unchanging truths. So one of them, for instance, if you're doing a SaaS business, is SaaS is likely to be technology, believe it or not. And as such, it is likely to be [00:04:30] seen or felt as abhorrent by regular people who might consider the possibility of buying it. And the reason it's abhorrent is people don't like new stuff, they don't understand. It makes them kind of sick to their stomach. And the fact that you built it, you love it, it doesn't make it any less abhorrent to them. They're repulsed by it, I believe would be the correct term. And that's a universal.
(04:54):
That doesn't go away because in your spreadsheet you happen to have a row that says [00:05:00] add headcount, or spend money on marketing, bringing people to the website or whatever, and therefore, the revenue will grow magically as a result. The actual underlying process that needs to take place is, at some point, somebody who fundamentally doesn't want to buy anything like your stuff because it makes them sick to their stomach to think about it, has to decide to do so because it solves a broken mission-critical business process for them. And [00:05:30] preferably, at some point later, others buy for the same reason, and also because, "Hey, Mary bought it, and she's like me." So every time that Mary buys something, she's kind of the lead dog, "I'm willing to buy," maybe, or at least think about it.
(05:46):
So we've talked about that, how markets are essentially these sort of self-organizing sets of businesses you could sell to, where each sale you make successfully and service in a way that causes [00:06:00] value to flow, which is another thing, reduces your cost and risk of the next sale. And when you get to the edge of that market, it no longer reduces the cost and risk. It's no longer inter referencing.
(06:11):
So that deep truth about people, people hate new technology, it makes them sick to their stomach, is very important. And it's very rare that in a business model that's on a spreadsheet that somebody has populated full of month over month growth [00:06:30] numbers or whatever, and all this much of it is aspirational, by the way, if we don't hit the rule of 40, our growth rate plus our EBITDA adds up to 40 while we're doomed, therefore, let's make sure it always adds up to 40. And then let's back into that by saying, "Well, we need the resources to do it." And then let's back into that by saying, "We need the venture capital to get those resources."
(06:54):
What if there's an air gap under there, or a super slippery [00:07:00] little slope in there somewhere that says, "Yeah, but regular people aren't going to want to buy that at this point." So business models can fool us, popular ones, especially when they have money behind us, them, into thinking the money will deny the truth of how people actually buy. And the truth of how people actually buy, the emotional journey that they go on to go from, "What?" to, "Yeah, I'll do that." That emotional journey [00:07:30] is based on stuff that has nothing to do with your business model, and you can't force it to happen. You don't have the luxury.
(07:38):
People always tell me, "Oh, yeah, my... That crossing the chasm stuff, I don't need that crap. We're already across the chasm. Unlike everybody else, we were born across the chasm, because our stuff is so great, so compelling. We do PLG." "Oh, what's PLG?" "Well, we give it away, and then that [00:08:00] way we learn a lot about it. And then..." Okay, so if you ask a simple question, have any PLG companies with relatively compelling products that somebody looked at, ever failed? Answer: Oh, yeah, lots of them. Lots of them. Well, if it's a powerful model that sort of can't fail on a spreadsheet, why does it fail in reality? Why do SaaS models tend to fail in reality? Rob McClarty has mentioned this. He says, "No, the streets are paved with the bones of SaaS companies [00:08:30] that looked perfect on the spreadsheet."
Corey Frank (08:32):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (08:33):
Why? And I believe the why is, is because the realities of human beings making a decision to trust somebody more than they trust themselves are simply ignored in those models. They're ignored in time, in magnitude, in dependencies. What do you have to get before you can get there? They're just ignored. And they're ignored, because the money is impatient.
Corey Frank (09:00):
[00:09:00] Well, that's what we're going to get to is that a little bit of, I guess, internally Gresham's law, you would say, is that, Chris, scenario, if I had a SaaS company that you and I started and we had $5 million in capital to use however we want, not with the benefit of the last 25 years of experience or so, but just as maybe a first or second runaround, or had the benefit of funding it ourselves, [00:09:30] which one is more preferable from the aspect of crossing the chasm, learning a little bit about how your market runs and how it works versus potentially bastardizing it with too much of a good thing? So where would you stand on a scenario like that?
Chris Beall (09:50):
Well, in the general case, money is poisonous, in the general case for businesses. So why is it poisonous? It's poisonous, because it causes us to believe [00:10:00] that what is in front of us is something other than what's actually in front of us. So if I have enough money that I can buy that $64 breakfast buffet and think that it's nothing, then I have enough money to do a number of other stupid things with my money. But the breakfast isn't actually more nutritious, because if I bought it for seven bucks instead of 64 bucks, does it actually do more for my body? That was the purpose of breakfast, by the way, for me. I don't go to breakfast to see and be seen, [00:10:30] I have to admit. First of all, nobody wants to see me. And secondly, why would I want to be seen? I'd rather be privately having my breakfast somewhere. But they were serving it out in the open.
(10:40):
So why is money poisonous in business is really interesting. I was just on somebody's podcast today talking to them about this. If you have new technology, and all SaaS is technology, therefore at some point, it's new technology. This is kind of like just math. People sometimes beat up on me, "Why do you say that's just math?" Because it's just math. [00:11:00] So it's just math that if you have something later, you must have something earlier. And at some point, you had the one that's earliest, and so it's new. Okay. So here's the problem with new technology, you actually don't even know what it should be. You just have your fervent imagination, your fantasy or whatever.
(11:19):
But there are these folks out there that we call tech enthusiasts who love to play with and beat up new technology. It's how they make their way in the world, because they work at companies where [00:11:30] other people in the company would like to know, "Well, what's new, and what's working?" And that's what they do. They don't have a title that says new technology checker outer, but they exist, and they're called tech enthusiasts. If you skip the step of selling to tech enthusiasts, then your technology will never actually have been beaten up enough at a very, very low cost. Because they'll pay you a little, not much. But they will beat it up. And you can't buy that. You can't buy it. Your QA team will do nothing to that product compared to [00:12:00] what the tech enthusiasts will do. And they'll do it in all good humor. They're actually trying to make it work. But they're going to tell you about every little thing that's wrong, and you can choose to fix those things or not. You should probably choose to fix them.
Corey Frank (12:14):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:15):
So that little annealing process, that little process of going from an idea embodied in code to code that actually implements at least part of the idea, that needs to be done. So if you have too [00:12:30] much money floating around, you've got that 5 million in the bank, you're likely to either skip that step or do something even worse, which is to go back to your funder and say, "I have product market fit."
Corey Frank (12:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:45):
"How do I know it? Look, the dogs are eating the dog food." Well, those are not the dogs. They are not the dogs. The dogs are on the other side of the chasm. What's eating your dog food? [00:13:00] Are these very enthusiastic sort of, I don't know what they are, maybe rodents of some kind. And they love dog food, but they're still not dogs. And you can tell, by the way, because they won't pay you very much for it.
Corey Frank (13:13):
It's what we talked about with the legendary Dr. Goldratt, where there's a tail, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's a dog behind that tail.
Chris Beall (13:25):
Exactly. Exactly.
Corey Frank (13:26):
And I think the example that we talked about was [00:13:30] Botox, right? Where, hey, Botox seems like, hey, people want to look younger, they want to feel younger. They love the image it portrays. But unfortunately, people also hate needles. So if it was a pill form or a cream form, that would catch on much more widely. It already is pretty wide, but it's not exactly this dog behind the tail. And tails can be seductive, because there are these semi businesses, these nichey businesses, [00:14:00] these almost businesses. But it certainly doesn't create a market dominant type of business. Correct?
Chris Beall (14:07):
Exactly. And the fact is, tech enthusiasts as the tail end question, they're anti referenceable. They're anti referenceable. If a tech enthusiast is using your product and loves it, that reduces the chance that's somebody who's a regular kind of business person is going to say, "I want to use that too." Because they're going to look [00:14:30] over there and go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mary's like that. She'll try anything. She loves new stuff. She tinkers with it. She has a great time with it. That's not me." So if she's using it, it's not ready for primetime.
Corey Frank (14:46):
But if I have all this capital, is it the formula, get money, hire salespeople, yield revenue?
Chris Beall (14:55):
Yeah, that's what's on the spreadsheets, right?
Corey Frank (14:58):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (14:58):
I mean, how many spreadsheets have I seen [00:15:00] in my career that work like this? And I laugh. I make fun of them a little bit. I try not to be cruel. And then I choose to be cruel to see whether I can actually get them to jump off that horse and walk around a little bit. And they work like this, "Well, here's our business. You see, we have a bunch of words that describe the market. And then what we do is we add resources that generate revenue," they're called salespeople. "And we also spend money on [00:15:30] marketing that generates demand. The salespeople service. And well, now we're done. Now we're done. Now, we go execute. How do we execute? We hire salespeople." It's like, okay, so I know for sure what's going to happen when we hire salespeople.
Corey Frank (15:47):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (15:48):
The salespeople are going to do a little of what works. So what will they do? Well, if your product is not yet gone past the tech enthusiast phase, they will [00:16:00] sell to tech enthusiasts. No matter what you say your ideal customer profile is, they will sell to whomever allows them to succeed. And in sales, succeeding means, "I close deals, and the deals are for money." So now, the salespeople will both cost you money, which is a problem.
Corey Frank (16:18):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:19):
And then they'll take you in the opposite direction from where you need to go, which is a bigger problem. And then you'll get addicted to it, because you'll start looking at the sales results [00:16:30] and going, "Wow, this is great," which is a bigger problem. And then you'll start celebrating these things and calling them wins. "It's a win. What happened is a win." Well, we're trying to have Billy here grow up to be big and strong. And look, he's over there eating Jello. At least he's eating more Jello. We have a win." I'm not saying Jello is bad.
Corey Frank (16:54):
A phantom product market fit.
Chris Beall (16:57):
Exactly. Phantom fantasy product market... [00:17:00] Then we get to the hard part. And this is what we were going through today on this podcast. The hard part is, not this one, but this other one I was on. Now you've got to decide what do you do next? So your technology has been beaten up a little bit and you've made some fixes, but nobody has ever really held your feet to the fire. Nobody has ever said, "This has got to work, or somebody dies here."
(17:23):
And that's the role of this kind of customer who's next, who is misnamed, I think we've talked about this before, as the visionary. [00:17:30] Everything Jeffrey Moore ever said was correct, except I think he chose the wrong name for the visionary, because it's their vision of beating the living daylights out of two or three or four of their competitors or escaping a noose that they feel closing around their neck. So they exist out there, and there's one of them who really wants your technology to go and get competitive advantage. And if I had a $1.52 for every time [00:18:00] somebody said, "This is great. This customer of ours, prospect, they see themselves getting competitive advantage. Isn't that wonderful?"
Announcer (18:10):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live [00:18:30] qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com.
(18:44):
And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Chris Beall (18:51):
If you're at that stage, go get one of them. Go get one of them, charge them a huge amount of money. Make sure they get us, and do something [00:19:00] with them. But don't do two.
Corey Frank (19:02):
Don't do two.
Chris Beall (19:03):
Don't do two.
Corey Frank (19:04):
Yeah. This aspect of this insidious decline, I guess, that happens in this performance, when I assume that my dogs, the type of dogs I want are eating the type of dog food I'm producing. And all of a sudden, I don't get any new dogs. These are the same dogs who are eating the same dog food. The population of the dogs around the bowl are not increasing. [00:19:30] There's generally, and you've taught me this, Chris, sometimes there's this lateral adjustment that happens where, "Well, it must be the sales manager then," or, "It must be the systems I'm using," or, "It must be the comp plans." How do I know that it's not necessarily a lateral problem? It could be. And instead, more of a vertical challenge here that is going to be the bugaboo to vet out whether I have the right business model.
Chris Beall (20:00):
[00:20:00] Well, this is where being a senior person is super helpful. So one of the things that you get from seniority, senior people, talking to senior people, is you get what I call a shot at the truth. So if you go to one of your customers that you think is a dog that's across the chasm, referenceable and all that, don't go to the person who actually made the decision to buy. Go to their boss, go to their boss's boss, and talk to them about the business problem that [00:20:30] your product is addressing for them. Just talk to them about it. Ask them like, "How's it doing? What's it doing for you?"
(20:39):
So if they talk about competitive advantage, well, they're a visionary. If you charge them regular prices, you know you undercharged. That's all there is to it. Plus, you didn't put enough in the deal. If you talk to them, and they say, "Well, this is great. Mary's learned so much using your product. We really have gotten a good view of how generative AI [00:21:00] could work in our business." You know it's a tech enthusiast, so that's not a dog at all. That's like some kind of a whatever, something else.
(21:08):
If they talk about they have this business problem, things changed, times changed, and your product helps them take friction out of the mission and get back to where they were doing what they were doing before, maybe even better. That is they had a broken mission-critical business process. Then you've got yourself a dog. [00:21:30] Now, you've got to find out, "Well, along which dimensions are they a dog? What is it about them that would cause somebody else to buy because they bought?" Well, you just ask them that question like, "Well, of these six or seven companies that we've been talking to, which one would you have gotten the most comfort from? I know you bought us, I get it. But had we sold to which one of these first, would it have allowed you to say, 'Oh, this is safe. This is safer.'"
(22:00):
[00:22:00] Well, they're in the market. Because they're very rare. It's very rare there's symmetries in business. Almost everything in business is asymmetric. It doesn't matter what you say, it's all asymmetric. Water runs downhill. It doesn't run across flat surfaces, and it sure doesn't run uphill. So here, you have this early adopter. This is a true early adopter of your technology. This isn't a tech enthusiast. This is somebody in market. Their relationship to the other players around is, if another one had gone first, who's [00:22:30] enough like them, they would've happily gone second. They went first, because, inconveniently, they couldn't figure out how to go second.
(22:38):
So just ask them. Ask them, "Who among this..." And you have to give them a list. "If we had sold to them first, it would've made it easier for you to buy?" And they'll tell you. And now you know, "Okay, that's somebody else in the market. We'll go sell to them." So the folks you've sold to will tell you who the rest of your market is from their perspective, [00:23:00] by reversing the order of the question and saying, "Who, if they had bought first, would've lowered my cost and my risk of selling to you?" And they'll tell you.
Corey Frank (23:10):
I think, and you and I have been around a lot of founders, a lot of CEOs, a lot of boards, because the business model is one dimensional. It's not an animate object. You have the people who are maybe a little bit more tree hugging in their approach to a [00:23:30] business model. They prevaricate when confronted maybe with some market data or some anecdotes from their sales team. Balance that as a CEO knowing to abandon ship, knowing when to bail water, knowing when to tack to a new course. So above the spreadsheet, when it's you alone [00:24:00] and you're in your office at 7:00 PM on a Friday, you got a board meeting next week, your people are waiting to hear from you in the all hands-on a Monday morning. What traits do you find most helpful in those solitude moments?
Chris Beall (24:17):
Whoa. Whoa. That's a good one. I think the main thing that you need to bring to the party at that point is just clarity. Just [00:24:30] clarity. It's like, if it's clear you don't know what you're doing, be clear that you don't know what you're doing.
Episode 200 of the Market Dominance Guys features Corey, Chris, and special guest Jim Graf. They explore key trends shaping modern prospecting – from the diminishing returns of broad email campaigns to the rise of personalized, longitudinal selling. Jim explains how the old concept of BANT (budget, authority, need, timeframe) fails to capture the fluidity of today's buying journeys. Rather than chasing "leads," they advocate nurturing long-term demand through authentic relationship building.
The conversation culminates in examining the overlooked value of seasoned SDRs. Chris shares examples of 60+ year-old SDRs wildly outperforming their younger peers, dispelling misconceptions that this function is merely developmental. With their seasoning, polish, and focus, many late-career reps embody the consummate skills needed to excel. Jim and Chris emphasize how this critical frontline role requires a professional, not progressive, mindset.
In an era of noisy outreach, the guys explore timeless ways to cut through the clutter – with patience, personalization, and wisdom accrued over decades. Listen to this episode, "Authentic Demand: Moving Past Impersonal Lead Gen."
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Jim Graf on LinkedIn
Kazzcade
Branch49
ConnectAndSell
Full episode transcript below:
----more----
Chris Beall (01:37):
Everybody thinks that they're doing something clever, but they're not asking themselves the fundamental question which is, what's the cost of reproducing that and making another unit? And if the cost is too low, they can't win based on it. You just cannot win in the marketplace, based on commoditizing the one thing that makes a difference, which is getting a trust relationship [00:02:00] going. Going the expensive way turns out to be a path to cheap dominance. It's the least expensive thing you can do to dominate, is the most expensive thing you must do in order to get started.
Jim Graf (02:14):
The other thing too, and we train our guys on this, but when you have that conversation, there's branding going on, but then there's also all sorts of market intelligence. I mean, tons of market intelligence. And I'm not just talking about what do you use now, but there's [00:02:30] first-party data. Our team a lot, is identifying when that contract runs out with your CRM, when it make the most sense to talk more about evaluating third parties, stuff like that. And you can't buy that intent data. You can't buy the fact that this law firm has a three-year contract with Salesforce, expiring December 2023.
(02:52):
And so our ability, we focus a lot on, of course, quotes them, "They're not going to be interested. Now's not a good time. [00:03:00] This is going to be standard, guys. Just get comfortable with it." But it's taking that and being able to, you can't do this in email. Is what is that market intelligence that we can gather, where we can move this further down the pipe? Is there a contract expiring, have an A activity going on, but basically we're really not forceful, but move to like we have this person's undivided attention for 30 seconds. Let's make the most of it. Be in the moment. Try to understand what their problems are, when things are expiring, but move it along. And [00:03:30] you don't get any of that with email. Email's just kind of a branding exercise. Someone from AWS reached out and they've got a special going on, and here's a link to a landing page. Okay.
Chris Beall (03:39):
Yeah, and it's funny too, though, there's another marketing impact we don't talk about, but we can measure it. I don't know if you've done this with us, but we'll measure from opportunities back to what produced them, what conversations produced which opportunities. And the biggest producers are the negative conversations. So the positive conversations, the super conversation, [00:04:00] the one that sets a meeting is the most obvious producer. But in most shops, and we've measured about 120 of them over extended periods of time, two to three, four years. In most shops, most of the money comes out of the negative conversations.
(04:15):
And the reason we think is, that person that you're talking to feels kind of good that they got out of the conversation with their self-image intact fairly quickly, but they also went to your website while they were talking to you. And so your Google [00:04:30] ad, you paid them a lot of money. Why does Google make so much money? Well, they drive people to websites. That's why, right? That conversation, which you need in order to set the meeting, its primary impact is almost always, they go to your website. And the secondary impact is, they will almost always answer an email you send them, immediately after the conversation, with this subject line, "Thank you for our conversation today." Unless you want to really cheat, and then you send one from the boss that says, "Thank [00:05:00] you for speaking with my colleague today."
(05:02):
Nobody gets emails like that. They're totally scarce. They must be sincere and worth checking out. And if they come from the boss, by the way, that tells you something about that company as the receiver of that email, that makes them stand out. It makes them stand out as a potential partner. That person, that CEO or whoever it is, they care enough to send a thank you to me, for spending 30 seconds speaking with their colleague. [00:05:30] And by the way, they called them their colleague.
Jim Graf (05:32):
That's really interesting. That's a great idea.
Chris Beall (05:34):
There's power weapons, power leverage, hiding in the natural things that happen after conversations. But I tell you, you try to get somebody to send and email to somebody who just brushed them off, and the rep has an emotional issue doing it. They have an emotional issue following up with somebody who hung up on them. I spent two lobster dinners one night in Boston with one of our podcast guests later, he works for me now, just convincing him [00:06:00] that it is in his best interest to follow up on folks who hang up on him. Just to put him in the follow-up list. And he says, "What am I going to say to him?" It's like, say, "When we spoke back on October 6th, you didn't have time for a conversation. Is now a better time?"
(06:17):
It's actually pretty simple. You're just being considerate and you're claiming a piece of knowledge that happens to be true. They don't remember it, but you do. So you must be somebody who actually remembers things that happen when you interact with people, and [00:06:30] you're in the top 1/10th of 1% instantly by doing that. It's pretty simple. And he says, "But I don't like it when they hang up on me." So it's like, "You're in sales. Your job isn't to like anything. There's no liking in sales."
Jim Graf (06:43):
That's interesting. That's a great tactic strategy. Very true.
Corey Frank (06:47):
So Jim, when you look at having your agency for a few years, again coming from private equity, and these learnings from email to direct outreach, to creating authenticity and building trust, what are some of the trends you've seen, [00:07:00] just in the last couple of years or so, with outreach playing in the deep end of the pool with some of these big tech titans of yours?
Jim Graf (07:06):
Well, a lot of what Chris just highlighted with regards to email, it's definitely getting louder and just have them do more to get less. The other big trend is this whole concept of BANT. And, Chris, I don't know, I'm assuming you're familiar with it, but the whole legacy concept of budget, authority, need, timeframe from a prospect, as if every organization, these projects [00:07:30] and these purchases are widgets that move down the line. And does it have the budget yet? Does it have authority yet?
(07:35):
Especially with cloud and things being sold as a service, we see that becoming, I don't want to say less relevant, but really antiquated. So, I would just say the biggest trend is away from lead gen, as these leads are not widgets that you can just make. And that rather, it's more about demand gen and you have to get out there and you have to generate the demand. And, that's a lot of what Chris has been highlighting with, there's [00:08:00] gold in those people that say no, if you follow up accordingly and professionally. And it's just continuing to move them and massage them to the point of a more thoughtful conversation.
(08:09):
That's probably the biggest thing, is that this concept of lead is kind of, I hate to say dead, but it's really why we pivoted away and just focused more on demand gen and what's required. And then, the whole idea of what you've seen in the tech world is a lot of products are sold bottoms up, where they'll sell to a user first like Slack. [00:08:30] Our company doesn't need Jim Graf's approval for someone in my organization to start using Slack. But then when enough people use Slack, then probably it's appropriate for a sales guy.
(08:39):
So that means the whole buying process/decision is different. So if I'm a sales rep for Slack, you got to be cognizant of that and just understand this isn't, is there a budget for a new collaboration tool? Do you have authority? What's the timeframe? It's like, "I don't know. I mean, I don't know. My Microsoft Teams works pretty good." So it's just, I think, that whole model is kind of, it's still appropriate [00:09:00] for certain products, but it's definitely pivoted more towards demand generation and understanding the buying process. Definitely more fluid. Definitely more fluid.
Chris Beall (09:09):
It's also more longitudinal. It's way more longitudinal. So you mentioned back when you were selling, they give you a territory and say, "Go for it." The brilliance of that model is you anticipated holding onto that territory for quite a while and therefore you work the territory, not just in space, but you work it through time. [00:09:30] And we all do that in our lives, right? When we think something's important, we pay attention to our future interactions in that particular domain, not just what we can get right now. And yet, this whole BANT thing and all of the mechanization around sales implies that all that's important is the transaction in question. That there is nothing longitudinal. Nothing goes on over time.
(09:58):
But we know just mathematically the following, [00:10:00] it's a fact of the world. It's a math fact, which is 11/12ths of your ideal market, of your perfect market, that they're perfectly qualified in every regard, is not in market for a solution of your type, your category this quarter, 11/12ths.
Chris Beall (11:08):
Now, that's a dominating number.
Jim Graf (11:10):
That is. Wow.
Chris Beall (11:11):
That's just the biggest fact of sales. 11/12ths of your market, assuming you have a hundred percent information about who should buy. They're not in market this quarter. And you cannot find out if they're in market this quarter or in any future quarter unless you engage. And if you want to [00:11:30] win, to be their partner, you need to engage earlier than all competitors.
(11:36):
And, that simplifies everything about sales. That's what this podcast is about. That's why we call it Market Dominance Guys. It's about dominating markets by being first to converse and build trust, and harvest that trust over the future quarters that you're going to have to patiently work your way through, in order to dominate that market. And I'm shocked. Every day, I'm shocked that the simple math, this is [00:12:00] not like a big deep math concept. This is like, your replacement cycles for B2B products are about three years. Therefore, there's 12 quarters in three years. Consideration cycles are about one quarter. So most of your market's not in market. How are you going to find out? Well, the intent guys say, "Wait until they jump in. Wait for the red ocean and go in and fight."
Jim Graf (12:23):
Right, right.
Chris Beall (12:24):
And, we say, "That's idiotic." Nurture the relationship inside their midbrain, in their gut [00:12:30] with the voice, and then when they're ready to buy, you're ahead.
Jim Graf (12:36):
That's a great framing of it, because that is so true. When I first got out of school and I had territories, and then when I got into the, worked for the investment bank, you had accounts, major hedge funds and you never gave up. I mean, I almost think about that as it relates to some of my SDRs is, we need more data. And we always have these debates internally. "Is it more data? Why do you need more data? I mean, how much are you going to churn through?" I mean, [00:13:00] get you need data to work, but it's a great point. I didn't realize that stat of what's actually in market.
Chris Beall (13:08):
It's kind of funny, isn't it? And I've never run into anybody that I've said that to. Said, "Oh, yeah, we know that." It's like, "But what's the alternative?" Unless you're going to either posit, the replacement cycles for products for solutions is less than three years, from B2B is not the case ever.
Jim Graf (13:27):
No.
Chris Beall (13:28):
Ever. I buy something [00:13:30] three years away considering a replacement, and the pursuit efficiency of everybody pursuing me at that point is going to be sub-10%. That is 90% of the time, even when I'm in replacement mode, I will not replace, because I don't trust any of those guys more than I trust myself, and I trust myself to operate what I already have. So until one of them is trusted more than I trust myself, it goes nowhere.
Jim Graf (13:57):
Yeah, that's interesting. [00:14:00] I mean, now that I think about it, we drink our own champagne, so to speak, so all of our revenue is we leverage the same process as an individual, except they're executing on behalf of Kazzcade. And all the deals from last month, a good portion of them were from May. So it's so true. It's very true.
Chris Beall (14:20):
It's funny, I had an investment banker ask me the other day, a question like this, "Well, what's your 2024 pipeline look like?" I said, "Who knows?" [00:14:30] I mean, we talk to so many people. We talk to 108,000 VPs of sales a year. When they ripen, they ripen. We don't make them ripen and we don't make the sunshine. We don't cause the sap to go up the tree. We're just wandering around in the forest going, "Hey, wait a second. That one looks a little red. Maybe we'll come back in a month and we can taste it or something." I mean, it's a simple model, but you've got to be able to go fast comfortably, in order to execute it.
Jim Graf (14:58):
Yeah. [00:15:00] Well, it's funny, we actually just launched a, it's not a new service, it just comes with our efforts, but it's what you're kind of highlighting. Where we might have a thoughtful discovery call or conversation and get all this information. "Hey, listen, our contract with our current MSP doesn't run out until August of 2024. Here are the main things that are really a priority for us, concerned about this, X, Y, Z. But now it's not the time. I mean, it's contract's not up until July 2024." So we package that up. We package that up, all the detail [00:15:30] why to follow up, what's going on, and clients love it. Absolutely love it.
(15:36):
Because we've had to articulate, "Guys, you have to understand. This is first party data, you cannot go off and buy off the shelf." ABC law firm has a $10,000 monthly contract with an MSP that comes up for contract in July of next year, and they generally evaluate three different vendors two months prior, open to having a conversation at that time. I mean, my goodness gracious. [00:16:00] Yeah, it's an interesting, but those are the two biggest things I've seen definitely change.
Corey Frank (16:05):
Well-
Chris Beall (16:05):
I love that product, by the way. I mean, when people get ConnectAndSell, they're thinking about it. Unfortunately, we first do a test drive that consists of mostly cold folks I haven't talked to before. We always ask them, "Bring some people you really want to talk with," because we want to simulate the follow-ups that you're going to have, because follow-ups are going to dominate. And in everything we do, [00:16:30] we ask, "Please pay more attention to talking regularly to the people you've spoken with before, and don't be so eager to disqualify them based on some temporary characteristic."
(16:43):
Just ask yourself, "Are they intrinsically qualified?" That's the question we always ask. BANT, we pay no attention to BANT. We ask one question, which is, "Do we believe that their business would be significantly helped if they had access to conversations on demand [00:17:00] and used it in an intelligent way?" That's the only question.
Jim Graf (17:03):
Yep.
Corey Frank (17:05):
Yeah. Well, this is great, getting you two titans together. I just want to ask you one more question, Jim and Chris, this was what the debate was the other day, I think you had over dinner with Jerry about SDRs and professionalism versus progression. And maybe you can frame this for Jim and let's get his take on it.
Chris Beall (17:26):
Well, it started actually when my wife popped in, she's just been announced [00:17:30] as the future chief revenue Officer for Mediafly. So a sales tech company, that to me was a modest significance until Mary Shea joined, at which point it immediately became a monstrous significance, and then now these beasts of the world are going to go dominate. I get to watch it and it's pretty impressive, but she's going to own their SDR function as a result. That was kind of a question. Do you want it or not? And they don't really have SDRs per [00:18:00] se. They have these things, they call them account development people or whatever, but it's the same thing, right?
Jim Graf (17:26):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (18:06):
And she's gotten into the idea that talking to people really makes a difference. I mean, she already knew that, but the fact that you can push a button and do it effortlessly is interesting. But there was an assumption still in her from a question she asked me, which was about, "Well, these sort of junior people," blah, blah, blah. It was something about getting these junior people. I said, "Hold on, hold on. The ideal SDRs that we've ever seen are in their 60s and 70s." [00:18:30] The very best SDRs on earth are in their 60s and 70s. I mean, we've tested this.
(18:37):
So we worked with a company, Israeli cybersecurity company selling to hospitals, that had three SDRs way off in rural Vermont, 62, 68, and 72 years old. They were open to coaching. They went to flight school voluntarily. They wanted to learn more. These are true experts at the cold call, but they wanted to learn more. They generated [00:19:00] demand for an unknown product solving and unknown problem, which turns out to be pretty important. Keep the ransomware folks from killing your grandmother while she's in the hospital, or at least threatening to. And they built $65 million of pipeline in five months. The three of them did, and the company sold for $300 million bucks, right on top of that.
(19:21):
Now, are there 24 year olds who can do what those 60 year olds can do? Maybe. Will they do it for 10 years? Maybe not. [00:19:30] Right? So of Corey's people, we tell them, this is finishing school for future CEOs because they're younger. So you learn to cold call. So you learn to talk to strangers because that's a core CEO skill. You're going to keep it forever. So you want to run something someday, come through this program. But there are actually more great SDRs out there at the end of their careers that no one is tapping. And I've always thought, somebody who's in your business, Jim, could make the biggest fortune in the history of big fortunes, in the world [00:20:00] of everything that happens early in sales by getting these folks who are at the end of their careers. We have a podcast episode that's titled Hire a Grandma, and we mean it to be taken literally. Right?Because, what did you say they need to be? They need to be in the moment. They need be active listeners.
Jim Graf (20:22):
Well, I'll tell you, I've never connected the dots like that, and that's a very, very interesting, but we definitely skew older. First of all, the Patty, [00:20:30] the gal I just described for you is more polished than ... an older gal. The two others that we would start on Monday, older. And now I'm late 40s, so now it's 60, 70. When you're working with people in their mid 20s, well, first of all, in general, we are constantly training professionalism, just nonstop. And with a employee like Patty, you don't have to train as much. And I'm talking communication skills. " [00:21:00] Hi, it's Jim with Kazzcade. Nice to meet you. How are you?" Pausing, listening. They have a question. "I'm sorry. Who are you with?" Because when you get into the younger generation, you absolutely, it is a lot rougher around the edges. A lot. And we have to train a lot on, you need to speak very clearly, and you need to say, "May I have?"
(21:20):
We actually, God, this is so funny. Just yesterday in the training with one of my guys who's fantastic, but he was saying that my trainer, who wears a suit and tie every day because he wants [00:21:30] to promote professionalism, heard him say, "If you give me 27 seconds, I'll tell you why I called." And my trainer flagged it, and this sounds really small, but this is the level of granularity on how they present themselves would go. And we're just like, "That's just a little too cheesy man and a little too transactional. It's not professional. And I don't know, it just doesn't sound, you give me this, I'll give you that. You're the one calling them. You're the one interrupting them. You need to ask for permission. You need to do it professionally. You need to do it politely."
(21:59):
So one, I was ecstatic [00:22:00] my trainer caught it. It was like, "We got to have a talk about this." You would've thought the house was burning down. To Chris, to your point, I would err absolutely on the side of professionalism. I'd never thought about it like that with the age thing. And that does turn on a lot of light bulbs, actually.
Corey Frank (22:15):
Chris, by the way, Jim uses the permission base, 27 seconds, as his opener. Which is great, is music to Chris's ears, as he can.
Jim Graf (22:23):
Oh, yeah. That thing is just gold. I don't think I've ever heard it not work. If you say it professionally and politely, [00:22:30] and with honesty and being authentic, and just pause, just be quiet. Let them answer. And, I don't think we've ever heard it not work. But anyways, to your point, Chris, yeah, there's a lot more rough edges. I mean, there was a lot of role playing.
Chris Beall (22:45):
And the job's too important. This was my other point was, look, this is the single most important job in any organization. It's the one that's also the most cryptic. It's very hard to see inside of it and know how well you're doing, because it's being executed [00:23:00] in millisecond, millisecond, millisecond timeframes, with what's going on inside of another human being as the actions. You don't get to see the action. It's not like, "Oh, here's the sales process and we do this, and we do that." It's like a golf swing, man. You set it up wrong, you don't have a hope. It's ballistic, and it's over in 35 seconds. And what could go wrong in there? Once it goes wrong, there's no recovery. You never [00:23:30] come back from making a mistake in a cold call.
(23:33):
Now, if you're as good as a Cheryl Turner, you can actually come back on the next one. You can stop and think about it, and she'll give me a call sometime and go, "There's something wrong. There's something wrong," and we'll talk it over because she knows it's in her. Or, it's in the script or whatever it happens to be. And that was my point to Jerry, is this job is so important, it needs professionalism, not progression. These are professionals. They're not progressing [00:24:00] to some other job. They might choose to, because we can all choose to do other things with our lives, but it's like saying, "Oh, you're an SDR. You're going to progress to being an AE." That's crazy. It's like saying, "You're a surgeon, you're a heart surgeon, but we're going to have you progress to be a hospital administrator someday." That's not progress.
Corey Frank (24:22):
Absolutely.
Jim Graf (24:23):
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, and there's just a lot of inherent skills. Professionalism says a lot, but from [00:24:30] active listening, speaking clearly, believe it or not, these are with some of the younger generation, there's attention sometimes issues. Are you actually listening or are you just kind of like, "Okay, I'm looking at my script. As soon as this person's quiet, I'm going." We don't seem to have that with some of our older reps. So that's a very interesting business idea, though. I hadn't really thought about that.
Chris Beall (24:52):
There's millions of them out there.
Jim Graf (24:54):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (24:55):
Florida. They concentrate-
Corey Frank (24:56):
He's in Florida, so he's got a little more than most.
Chris Beall (24:58):
Yeah, yeah. [00:25:00] Let's face it, without being unfair, you can practice a different kind of wage arbitrage.
Jim Graf (25:07):
Yeah, very true. Very true.
Corey Frank (25:12):
Well, beautiful. Well, I tell you what, it's always, always a pleasure, Jim, talking to another killer, another pro like you. We've got to have you back again. I don't know why we haven't had. We have had 200 episodes and we haven't had Jim on yet. We've got to talk to our booker, whoever, who that is on the podcast.
Jim Graf (25:29):
Have your agent call my agent.
Corey Frank (25:30):
[00:25:30] Yes, yes. We'll do that. So for the Market Dominance Guys, this is Corey Frank, and for Chris Beall. Jim, thank you very much. Until next time.
Jim Graf (25:40):
Absolutely. Chris, nice meeting you. Corey, I don't want you to get left out.
Chris Beall (25:44):
And thanks, Corey. You're always, as Helen says, you're the gem of gems.
Corey Frank (25:50):
All right.
Prepare for another thought-provoking journey as Corey and Chris are joined by special guest Jim Graf, the CEO and Founder of Kazzcade, a former private equity finance titan turned outreach sales guru. Together, they delve into the concept of "Gresham's Law" – where "bad money drives out good" – and apply it to the world of sales.
In an era overrun by cheap tricks and impersonal outreach, the MDG team explores how these practices can diminish the value of genuine, high-touch sales. With AI and automation flooding inboxes with repetitive and uninspiring messages, Chris, Corey, and Jim examine the phenomenon of how "cheap outreach actually drives out the value of good outreach."
Join the conversation as they discuss the impact of this shift on the art of selling. Can we reverse this trend? Can we, in fact, perform real “conversational alchemy” by transforming mundane interactions into genuine, meaningful connections? This episode offers valuable insights into navigating the challenging landscape of modern sales and cold outreach, where authenticity and real dialogue are held at a premium.
Don't miss "Conversational Alchemy: Transforming Sales in the Age of Cheap Outreach" as it explores the timeless wisdom of Gresham's Law and its relevance in today's business world.
Full episode transcript below:
----more----
Corey Frank (00:00):
Here we are with another episode of The Market Dominance Guys, as we inch ever closer to episode number 200, Chris. And as always, I'm here with the Sage of Sales, the profit of profit, and the Hawking of Hawking. Chris Beal. Chris, how are you?
Chris Beall (00:17):
I'm doing pretty good today, having fun at the Outreach Unleash Conference the last couple of days. And gosh, I'd forgotten how amusing people are when you get 'em in a big herd like that. They're pretty funny.
Corey Frank (00:28):
Well, we're going to talk a little bit about the trends [00:00:30] and not the most circuitous route to get to B P O and outsourced sales. We have a very special guest, Jim Groff, C e o, and founder of Kaz Kade k a zz kaz cade.com. Jim, welcome to the market Dominance Skies.
Chris Beall (00:48):
Corey, happy to be here. I really appreciate the invitation. I'm excited,
Corey Frank (00:52):
And you are also for full disclosure because our attorneys get on this every episode, right? Chris, you are a power user of connected Cell just for the listeners, so they [00:01:00] absolutely know this was not coerced. You're not being compensated for your appearance in any way, shape or form. You were somehow enticed, seduced come on this podcast. And that's all there is really is just the nuggets that come from Chris's words. And that's payment enough though, as it is for me for the last 15, 20 years. I don't know what it's been, Chris, but anyway. Well, let's get right into it. So Jim, you come from a very different background that Chris has some interesting perspective on. You come from the private equity and financial [00:01:30] side of the ledger, but yet you own one of the best B P O sales consulting agencies marketplace over there in Lake Mary in Florida. So how did a finance guy, what left turn where you should have took a right turn to a space like this?
Chris Beall (01:52):
Yep. I spent my entire life actually in sales from right out of undergrad and then after grad school and I worked for some [00:02:00] great companies that provided just a great foundational B two B sales. Then after grad school, worked for an investment bank where it's a lot of selling. I mean, investment bankers by definition are kind of glorified real estate agents, but my specific role is what's called an institutional broker. And we would help companies raise capital and I'd work directly with hedge funds on pitching them stocks, putting their portfolio long or short. So it was a constant sales job and a lot of phone sales. So sales has just always been in my D N A and I always navigated [00:02:30] towards sales because the income was always limitless and it was a great career. I really enjoyed it, but I always had a very entrepreneurial spirit and just realized that look, life's not slowing down.
Chris Beall (02:42):
And so I started to look for an organization that I could raise some money and buy. And I came across this at the time it was just a mom and pop lead gen company in Orlando, and I'm like, man, I didn't even know appointment setting was even a thing. And I'm like, this is crazy because all my life in sales, I've never heard [00:03:00] of bant qualified. That still blows my mind. We can talk about that. I think that's insane. I was given a territory and it's like make it happen. So anyways, as I looked at the company, I'm like, this could be really interesting. I think it can add a lot of value here as sales is so cordo my profession. And that was eight years ago. And since then we really kind of transformed it into a complete S D R as a service.
Chris Beall (03:19):
We're more of a business process outsourcing where we bring the full stack from helping identify what is your I C P, any marketing around that email copy, the whole tech stack. [00:03:30] And that's where Chris and Connect andel are a key component, huge believer in using the phone. Matter of fact, at times we've actually thought about pulling the email component because a good portion of all the engagement we get and appointments we actually deliver for our clients is all via phone. But anyway, so we bring that whole tech stack, build out cadences, and then of course it's the technology, but then it's really the talent and who is that S D R that's going to steer that ship and execute those phone calls, respond to any emails, do it at scale, do it professionally, do it [00:04:00] well. And it's been a great pivot so far. We're very blessed that we have plenty of work.
Corey Frank (04:06):
Well, Chris also comes in, has a deep experience from that private equity venture world, and he is also reformed from that side of the ledger and decided to help and augment certainly in the arms dealing business, the weapons business of helping amplify the power of the phone. So Chris, you've worked with and collaborated with and argued and debated with guys like Jim when he was in the other side of the fence there. [00:04:30] So what do you think of that? What do you think about a guy who's actually reformed from the VC venture world and realizing, Hey, I've been in sales and now I've got to jump in and I have all this mass, these experiences I can help other people doing what I've been doing in my own practice day after day.
Chris Beall (04:46):
I
Jim Graf (04:46):
Mean, ultimately all of this is both constrained by and energized by money. That's kind of how it works. I mean, it's the magic of the fungible and the liquid and the leverageable. And so what's so interesting [00:05:00] to me, and this is actually why I jumped into connect and sell, is that when I first saw that particular product, I didn't see it. I was just told about it by a person that I was obliged to believe because if you fail to believe Sean McLaren, when he is speaking with you at six 30 in the morning at the Rosewood Hotel, you're just going to fail in general life. So I went ahead and believed him and to me it was like, wow, we always talk about printing money and in business in B two B, conversations [00:05:30] are truly money that is, you have to hold them reasonably well, but if you can make conversations liquid, if you can make them reasonably fungible, which is what Jim's organization does actually is like we can do it.
Jim Graf (05:45):
You don't have to do it, that's fungibility and you can make them leverageable. So you get more than what you put in, you get out. And so now you get a compounding effect. You can actually magic with conversations the same way [00:06:00] that folks in venture and VC and private equity and hedge funds do it with money. And I've always said conversations with the other currency in business, it's just the one that you feel like you can only print it at a certain rate. It's like in the old days you had, okay, what made a good currency? Well, limited supply, gold was pretty good. Very limited supply of gold. It's hard to make more of it. A lot of alchemists came along and said, I can do this. But it turned out they were not doing it correctly. [00:06:30] And Isaac Newton fellow physicist, he controlled the mint in England.
Jim Graf (06:35):
And why would you put a physicist in control or mathematician in control of the mint? Well, because you want to make sure that what gets in there is real, right? And that's kind of like the business of knowing what's real. And I feel the same way about conversations that what we're doing is we're saying, can I do conversational alchemy? Can I make real conversations flow at an unnatural rate as though I was turning lead into gold? So [00:07:00] interesting. And we've been trying to work with folks as you know, Corey in the appointment setting, lead gen, outsource sales, whatever space for years. And we always have ended up in a business model conflict with them early and sometimes forever because what they are selling is predicated on scarcity of conversations. And their whole pricing model is predicated on flow rates of conversations that don't exceed one or two per hour per rep, [00:07:30] and therefore their business model is whatever it happens to be, it's by the meeting or it's by whatever it happens to be. And it really takes a special kind of business mind to look at eight x nine x 10 x flow rate increases in conversations and say, we will adapt our business model to that and go dominate, which is what Jim and his firm are doing.
Jim Graf (07:56):
Does that make sense to you? Totally. As
Chris Beall (07:58):
A matter of fact, you said something about [00:08:00] conversations having a compounding effect, the name Cascade, the actual, the reason it's cascade is that that light bulb went off many years ago. And I'm like, look, here's the deal, because when we were doing lead gen, this is a lead that's a lead. Here's a P D F call bill. And it ultimately dawned on me there's nothing more valuable than actually just doing this period hard stop and that every conversation actually has a cascading effect. And these aren't just like a widget. Here's a profile of a guy, his LinkedIn address and his email [00:08:30] as a lead, and that's where we actually named the company. It's Cascade because what we deliver has cascading effects for every business and for ourselves. And so I was telling Corey the other day when we were talking, we have some interesting tech and how we deliver our product, but it's really the tech stack and connect and sell, which are key components where we spend an inordinate amount of our time is the training of individuals to have conversations like an inordinate because as you know, you [00:09:00] just have so little time, but it's really that lever that really can make a great rep out of a good rep.
Chris Beall (09:07):
And what's funny is you talk about scarcity, they're only, especially with the AI and everyone with the biggest buzzword going on ai, this AI that they're going to grow in value. And we see it just in our ASPs. I mean, when I took over, I think our A S P was like 550 bucks. Now we've got a different pricing model, [00:09:30] but if we hit our benchmarks, it's more like 1400. And that's just been a steady why. To your point, these are harder to come by and you got to make the most of them. And that's kind of why I get excited. I don't see it going away ever. I mean, I could go on a diatribe how today's world, people feeling more isolated, they're just going to continue to grow in importance. And it's funny, when we bring people on, I actually tell 'em, I'm like, look, here's the deal.
Chris Beall (09:55):
You are going to be trained on skills, but I'm just seeing in four years, [00:10:00] either you're an engineer, you're creating something or you're interfacing with a client. Everything else, it's gone. Don't need it. Don't need it. And so the skills that we are training with the people that we hire for an S C R, they see that and they understand that it's a huge opportunity for 'em. But I really believe it. I didn't come up with this. I think it was some author like Adam Grant or somebody said in the not too distant future, it's going to be critical thinking, collaboration, creativity. There was another one. But outside of those skills with ai, [00:10:30] you better have those skills.
Jim Graf (10:32):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's kind of funny. I'm an old programmer and we had a thing just happen yesterday in our company. It was kind of funny. It was kind of funny in a tragic way, but we got around the tragedy and that was some data that should still be in Salesforce had inadvertently been undone. It wasn't there anymore. And so this is an AI story, and so I went back through 1500 emails and found the 56 [00:11:00] of them that contained that data, but simply as a webpage in an email copied and pasted those into Excel files one tab per and sent it off to the one and only Tom Jung, who's been a guest on our show, he's our data concierge, and I work with him a couple hours a day in the data. And here's the AI part. This is why normally it'd say, okay, so the skill it takes to take this weird random stuff and extract [00:11:30] a little mini table out of the middle of it, over 50 something tabs and produce one beautiful piece of output that I can send to somebody who might be an investment banker or something like that about what's happened.
Jim Graf (11:43):
That would be a skill that would be in Tom's memory as a programmer.
Jim Graf (11:48):
So what did he do? I'm on my way to the eye doctor. I give him this assignment. I get to the eye doctor 22 minutes later, call him up, how's it going? He says, I just had chat [00:12:00] G p T, write the Python script that will take all of this stuff and turn it into what we need. I'm testing it right now. This is 22 minutes on the clock. I'm testing it right now, and I think it'll be done in 15 to 20 minutes. How long is your appointment? So the idea that you've got a bunch of stuff in your head that you can dredge out, and as a programmer you think, I've got these tricks up my sleeve, they're not really there. Same thing with business analysis. [00:12:30] I took chat g p T for a little ride one day and just took some spreadsheets that described our costs, our true deep costs, agent navigation time, and a bunch of stuff like that. Our two kinds of contracts connect on target reach, connect on live voice, what we charge for them and how customers receive R O I. And I asked chat G P T to build me a pricing model that would balance my customer's, r o i, with our desire to hit certain margin.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Wow, that's
Jim Graf (12:59):
It [00:13:00] did it for me through about an hour and a half of interaction. That one I wouldn't have been able to do myself. I could have done it in spreadsheets and stuff like that, but it would've taken me two weeks and I get interrupted 30,000 times in two weeks. So it wouldn't have happened. And it was just a fun Saturday just saying, no, no, no. What I meant was that's $7 an hour, not $7 a minute. I misspoken. It goes, oh yes. Thank you so much for clarifying that and it gives me a complete analysis. I said, please put that in this form, put it in this form, put it in this form. [00:13:30] It analyzed the business and gave me a better pricing model. So if you think that your skills are these technical skills that other than critical thinking, and I would break that down by the way, anybody wants to do critical thinking, you got to understand set theory. You've got to understand survivorship bias. These things will not jump out of the ai. It's interpretive critical thinking around what these fantastic tools can do. And it's knowing when you can use it. When is it okay? [00:14:00] And when's that damn thing hallucinating?
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Right?
Jim Graf (14:04):
Kind of jump in, but I agree with you a thousand percent. We have somebody we work with, her name is Cheryl Turner. Cheryl Turner is the master of the cold call, micro pivot. We listen to her because what she does is somebody says X, right? And she's always inside the script, but her timing the little chuckle,
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Oh, totally.
Jim Graf (14:26):
Being genuinely amazed, whatever it happens to be. My wife and [00:14:30] I spent hours one day listening to her as my wife, Helen was preparing to embark on her career as a cold caller using Connected cell, which she did for one hour and has never done it since. And she said, greatest weight loss program in history. But she also said this, all my research was a waste, which is similar to all that stuff in your head's, a waste. My research was a waste. All I needed to know was I was talking to another human being. I pushed a button and had the undivided [00:15:00] attention of another person, a person who could mean something to my business and vice versa. I had no idea there was such power. And we've been together for three years.
Chris Beall (15:09):
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. It's funny, when we get into the training and the way we break it down, there's selling skills and there's product knowledge. But when you get into the selling skills, it's so funny. You have the script and all that, but it really is, you got to talk it. And they use the example of a movie and who your favorite actor is and how, look, they have a script, but [00:15:30] he's not reading it. And you got to be the same way. And it's tonality and it's active listening and the more human it is, it really, it's just the more authentic it is. And we have this gal who started with us in July with no background, no background in sales, and no technical background. We have a lot of our enterprise clients are leading tech companies, A W S H P E, don't know if I can say that on the podcast.
Jim Graf (15:54):
You said you didn't name them.
Chris Beall (15:55):
Yeah, yeah. Sorry, excuse me.
Jim Graf (15:57):
Similar to,
Chris Beall (15:58):
It's so funny. So this gal [00:16:00] we're going over basics, what the cloud is. I'm just like, oh Lord. But she is so authentic and what she calls, she has such genuine excitement about the fact that this cloud provider can lower infrastructure costs by X percent. And she says it with such honesty and kind of like a pure, authentic naivete that the prospect is like, tell me more. Well, let me tell you, Chris, and it's only because it's authentic. He's just genuinely [00:16:30] that positive all the time. It's just her demeanor. And I coach these guys about this and there's nothing magical because you get other sales guys who have a bit of an ego, and I'm going to close more and this and that, which is awesome. I love it. I get it. But there's a part of, you got to be able to communicate that you truly believe you can help the person and be real. You got to be in the moment. If they ask you a question, just pause and think about it and then answer. But be honest. If you don't know the answer, say you don't know, [00:17:00] you start spinning off in the space trying to come up with something about the product that you don't know much about. You're just, it's gone. It's gone. But it's try to
Corey Frank (17:07):
Do that same thing. Jim, as you had mentioning, as you were mentioning, trying to do that same level of insistent mindset, authenticity in an email. And I think you had said something interesting, and I'd love to get Chris's opinion on this, especially coming from Unleash the conference up there in Seattle. But you had mentioned that you're thinking of pulling back on email as part of one of the [00:17:30] channels that Cascade does. Why, how come, and then Chris, does that mesh with some of the things that you've learned from Unleashed this week? Certainly the things that we've taught on this podcast for many years.
Chris Beall (17:43):
So first of all, it's just as simple as about 85% of our engagement and production is a result of a conversation. So it's either our guys are able to actually set up a follow-up call with our client or actually set a time [00:18:00] where they will have the discovery call, but the majority of that, and it's more than half, it's truly close, like 80% is via the phone. Second thing is, look, we use chat G p T, and as Chris was saying, at this point, it's really about the prompts. And I tell our clients, me telling you we use chat, G P T is like me saying, we use Google. It's out there. Everyone uses it. It's really how good are you at prompting? And we're at the fifth iteration of our prompting for generating email copy. And even then it's really AI assisted. [00:18:30] We still have a copywriter kind of audit.
Chris Beall (18:33):
These subject lines are just cheesy, whatever. But I'm sitting here, I'm like, well, if we're doing this, everyone's doing this. The amount of content marketing and email marketing is just going to explode if it hasn't already. It's kind of been like that. And so the only reason we haven't pulled it is we do have some of our SDRs, and this is more empirical. I don't know a way to quantify it When they're talking to a prospect, he or she'll actually reference, oh yes, you've been, [00:19:00] I know you've reached out a couple times via email. What's going on? I don't know if it's a trend yet. It's more just data points, but that's just empirical evidence. So we haven't pulled it yet. Honestly. Also clients, they love to hear about this exotic cadence of X amount of touchpoints, email and phone. But in the back of my head, I'm like, I'm just telling you, it's predominantly the phone. But I'm glad you like all these elegantly crafted personalized email messaging. So that's why we've debated internally a couple [00:19:30] of times.
Corey Frank (19:31):
Chris, what's been the trends up there in unleashed with all the smart kids
Jim Graf (19:35):
Rolling? Yeah, it was pretty interesting. For one thing, my buddy Tito Bort was there and Tito was the straightest of the straight shooters, right? It's the South American thing I think. So I asked him, I said, Titos, what's going on? We're just standing around the first evening, what's going on with email? And he says, oh, simple. One year ago, 72 emails to get a response now, 205.
Chris Beall (19:56):
Wow.
Jim Graf (19:57):
I said, well, doesn't that mean you have to have three times as many [00:20:00] SDRs to get the job done, or you just have to use bots and hope nobody caress about your sincerity? And he says, yep, that's it. And I just come right back to going around and listening to people at the conference and talking with Jerry Hill who was there, and James Townsend was there, came out for it. It's like, what did everybody think? Who thinks somewhat like we do? And that is in the face of tricks. They're trying to invent more tricks. [00:20:30] It's like
Chris Beall (20:31):
These chief
Jim Graf (20:32):
Tricks. And what the theme was of this particular conference, and I'm not saying this in a negative way, I'm just observing, is everybody said, well, if it's gotten hard, because everybody else is using ai, you need to use AI better. And that strikes me as just me as absurd because of the scarcity question. It comes down to this Gresham's law [00:21:00] of money says bad money drives out good, bad money means counterfeit money and drives out means good money goes under the mattress when bad money's in circulation because you don't want your good money to go out there and circulate with the bad money because it becomes worth less, right? You hang on, and that's when a whole bunch of interesting things happen. Prices tend to go crazy when there's a lot of bad money floating around. And some people think the government printing lots of money is a form of bad money. It reduces [00:21:30] the scarcity value of the money that you have when they print more of it. Well, there's an equivalent law, and I'm not Gresham and nobody else made it, so I'll call it deals second law of something, or rather, which is that cheap outreach drives up the value of expensive outreach.
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Jim Graf on LinkedIn
Kazzcade
Branch49
ConnectAndSell
Corey and Chris continue their discussion about inertia and constraints. How can leaders identify hidden constraints shaping their strategy? What fosters innovation: centralization or decentralization? Can classic texts offer counter-cultural wisdom to elevate leadership today? Pulling insights from ancient to modern thinkers, Corey and Chris tackle these questions and more. They argue consolidation often hinders progress while decentralization promotes healthy competition. Chris advocates "divisionalizing" to optimize strategy. They explore conquering inertia, maximizing strengths by pruning the unnecessary and structuring for change. The curiosity continues in part two of this engaging conversation in this episode, "Pruning the Unnecessary to Focus on Strengths."
Full episode transcript below:
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There's been, yeah, I think with this concept of innovation in limitations, it leads to [00:33:00] I think a natural progression to the next piece that Rami had spoken about was finding customer limitations. And he had three, and you talked about one earlier that you find customer limitations through the customer eyes, through the market's eyes, and then through the product size.
Corey Frank (00:33:22):
And so what are your thoughts on that? Because as a sales, a leader here and as an entrepreneur, [00:33:30] certainly sometimes, and he says in order too, it should be customer market and product. But as you know, and we've talked about many times too, Hey, I built the product so I'm going to start from the product. If I build it, they will come. Because many customers don't understand the limitations. They can't foresee the reality of a product without this limitation before connect and sell came around. Certainly folks didn't complain about [00:34:00] the real limitations because they didn't know a reality without the limitation of, wait, I just press a button and I don't have gatekeepers and everything else. Or the Henry Ford, if I asked the customer what they wanted, they'd all be still driving or still riding horses. So what do you think about that with customer market and product and as far as a blueprint, if you will, to find customer limitations for innovation?
Chris Beall (00:34:26):
Well, I always think of it in terms of what's the unit of change? What's the cost of change? What's [00:34:30] the probability of change? So the unit of change, you got to know what's the unit of change. The customer got to change their mind, their business, their point of view, the value that they're hoping to get, what's going to change there? The market always interesting. The market is going to say, Hey, here's some alternatives. Here's ways of looking at this. Whatever my way is, they're going to have some other ones. So the unit of change is they don't go with me, they go with somebody else or they do [00:35:00] nothing. Which is the most common one. The product is the most interesting one in this regard. You can design products for change or you can design products for perfection, for great fit. And they're two different things.
Chris Beall (00:35:14):
So the whole idea of software is so to speak, all software products are designed for change. This is why software is eating the world. You can do tricks with software. Think of the Tesla. Teslas download new software [00:35:30] all the time, and they keep getting smarter. It's not that the car was delivered to you smart. It's that the car's getting sitting out there charging in your garage right now. So Elon Musk identified a unit of change. It was super valuable, and customers are delighted in it because it's like, wow, look at that. Well, how does the car show that it's smart? It has a big whole screen and it can show you new things on it so it can make its new smartness obvious. [00:36:00] So designing for change is hard. Nobody in design classes teaches design for change. When you're writing code. The way I've always been a fanatic, and as you know, I've been writing code since 68. I know people laugh when I say that. It's like 1868. I'm exceptionally well preserved, 1968. Sure. So maybe 1768, anticipating some events on the eastern [00:36:30] seaboard of the us. But I've been writing code for a long time. I'm not very creative when it comes to writing code. I don't like tricks. I don't like some tricky way of doing something. I did for a little bit, and then I decided, but the main way that we design code for change is just to make it readable.
Chris Beall (00:36:50):
To make it readable. So you could read it to your mom. So my rule always when I hire great developers is we get in a room and we do two things. One is we decide what all the words mean. All [00:37:00] the words in the business need a formal definition. They need a comparative definition. It's one of these and not one of those, right? So you have positive and negative, and it needs an extensive definition. There's an example of one and every word that we're going to use of significance, and the business goes on the whiteboard with three definitions. It generally takes about three days. Everybody is so impatient during this process. We hate you, we hate you, we hate. That's
Corey Frank (00:37:27):
An example Chris would be, what? A [00:37:30] good lead or an ideal client. Is that what you're
Chris Beall (00:37:34):
Speaking? Yeah, exactly. Or in our case, it's like, what's a dial?
Corey Frank (00:37:38):
What's a dial?
Chris Beall (00:37:39):
Let's, what's a dial a connected? So we have a very, very specific definition of what a dial is. What does navigated mean when it's applied to a dial? These are very formal, tight type concepts. When somebody misuses one of those words because they're fresh to the company, they'll get corrected by the C E O, because that's the most [00:38:00] important thing is that the language we speak is within our own time domain, hyper precise. There are no colloquial terms used to describe anything that we do because the language is, the language expresses the tolerances within our machine. We want tight tolerances so we don't have sloppy action, and then we have lubrication so that it doesn't burn up. Lubrication tends to be we're funny with each other. [00:38:30] That's the lubrication is humor. You want tight language tolerances. You want something that loosens it up a little bit and cools it off because it is tight. But readability is the equivalent of readability. Is there in every product, is it easy to tell how it does what it does so that when we need to use it a little differently in a customer situation, we can without violating [00:39:00] what it is?
Chris Beall (00:39:03):
That is the tough part of design. And enterprise products are really unusual in this regard. They have long, long, long survivorship. I have enterprise products in the field today that I designed in 1983 that are still being used. The lock-in on enterprise products is extremely long. And so now the question is, well, do we know how it [00:39:30] works? Do we know that's not just enough to go, oh, it has this feature or this function, this trick and so forth. The constraint on change, the unit of change is somewhere inside of that. So we have a situation right now at Connected itself. It's a customer who is at the edge of B two B, and they're kind of doing some business to consumer stuff, and they need to do something really important, which is to take credit card information over the phone. Well, everybody knows that Connect and Sell is not a call center outbound system.
Chris Beall (00:40:00):
[00:40:00] So do we have that built in? Well, we do have something built in, and it's something that is very easy to apply in a certain way, but only across a whole organization. So now what's the unit of change? Do you take one organization and say it's two in a connect in self sense that is we divisionalized so that each one can innovate separately? Or do we say no, it's more efficient to have them together, or now I have to have more if then else kind of statements, tricks in [00:40:30] order to do one thing rather than the other, where my tendency is, which is split 'em and eat the inefficiency so that you gain the flexibility that comes from knowing how the damn thing works. But there will always be arguments on both sides and when any and all gold GRS are talking about, when they're talking about the theory of constraints, ultimately you're talking about the theory of change [00:41:00] because okay, I've identified the constraint. Now if I didn't change, what's that all about? That about, oh, fantastic, Chris, you can see it.
Corey Frank (00:41:11):
Yeah. He talks a lot about identifying it as this concept of the tail and the dog, where once you see tails in the world, once you're trained to see the tails in the world, just like what you had just [00:41:30] explained with the product and how you look at code, you're always in search of the dog. And so one of the examples he gave was with GoPro, the GoPro camera, and the tail was the following, the inventors, the innovators of the GoPro camera. They were already video cameras when GoPro came around, but they observed that surfers in the Southern California, Carlsbad area and the surf, they were taping, wrapping [00:42:00] their video cameras in plastic and waterproof containers to get right in the heart of the action as you're going through a tube, as you're going through getting started on the wave and take these incredible shots.
Corey Frank (00:42:15):
And these same folks were the same type of extreme athletes that wanted to strap 'em to the front of their mountain bike as they're going through these precarious trails and record the motion in a mere traditional Sony Handycam wouldn't do. And so they [00:42:30] jury rigged all these other protection mechanisms. And so the tail was a small group of customers who spend extensively a lot of money and effort to satisfy a specific need that they had, and what's the need that they're trying to satisfy? Well, and then is that need potentially relevant for other customers? The size of the dog, if you will. Is it a [00:43:00] big dog or is it a small dog? And then how much effort does the market, does this company, does this innovation need to do to satisfy that need? And so he says that there's oftentimes companies that have these tales that end up being a small doc.
Corey Frank (00:43:24):
He also said something very humorous I thought, which says a tail plus a tail plus a tail plus a tail is not a dog. [00:43:30] It's a bunch. And the example he gave on that is Botox, where Botox people, Hey, Botox, everybody wants to feel younger, but he wants to get rid of stretch lines on their face and the culture and be accepted. Or maybe it's if you're a Hollywood starch and you want to do all these things, but the limitation, the reason why it's not a dog yet, it's still a tail, is because needles, because the molecules are too big to have something that you can rub [00:44:00] or pill you take. So you still have the barrier of putting a need, and a lot of people don't want to do that. So it's not a dog yet. It's still a tail because it's ostensibly a small group still of folks who are willing to do it.
Corey Frank (00:44:14):
And so when you look at what your market is as Clayton Christensen, the Innovators development, you come up with this software, this weapon that folks didn't know that this limitation of getting rid of gatekeepers and voicemails [00:44:30] then even conceptualize that that could be a possibility in the world of sales. You guys created it, and that's the tail. And the dog is look at this industry that as a result of that. But do you see that? Have you experienced that tail and dog and other industries? Certainly with a lot of the clients that you deal with, you probably see it pretty often.
Chris Beall (00:44:55):
Yeah. I mean, I think the tail and the dog is kind of everything, and [00:45:00] you got to start with the tail and you're guessing about the dog. You got to pull the tail towards you to go, okay, how big is this dog? Or is it just a funny shaped dog that's got a big ass, but little stubby front legs?
Corey Frank (00:45:17):
That's right. That's right. He says, you ultimately remember you want the dog, not the tail. So if you're trying to create something, don't live in the world of trying to make the tail better. You're trying to go for the dog,
Chris Beall (00:45:30):
[00:45:30] Right? But you got to make the tail good enough. So I mean, if this stuff were easy, everybody would do it, right? Everybody tries it. Most people are smart enough not to do it. They recognize that 90 hours a week is a long time to work, and neglect to your family has its limits. That becomes the constraint. Actually, we call that a backend constraint,
Corey Frank (00:45:51):
A backend.
Chris Beall (00:45:52):
It's over there. It's like, oh, no. Now Corey, I'm sorry. You're only allowed to have zero children and you can't interact [00:46:00] 'em because you don't have time for either one of those activities. I don't know the algorithm for that. I know that it comes like everything else. It comes down to costs and time and more time than costs. That is, you only have so much time to figure out something. And if you haven't figured it out in a certain amount of time, you have a big choice to make, which is, are you going on faith that you're going to figure it out, or are you going to go change tails, right? And try to [00:46:30] figure it out. You're
Corey Frank (00:46:30):
Talking about when you're stuck.
Chris Beall (00:46:32):
When you're stuck and you're always stuck when you're at the tail, you're just plain all stuck. Yeah, you're stuck about the dog. You might not be stuck about the tail, but Oh, look, we put this thing together and it turns out it needs a mounting capability that goes on somebody's head, and now that we have that blah, blah, blah, okay, fine, right? Oh, but that tends to slip down and get between their nose and then they hate it. And okay, we got to have another little thing that's a strap on the back. Great. We're in tail land. We're tailing it up, right? Yep. [00:47:00] Getting to this question of is it a dog, one of the issues with that is there are people who want it to be a dog. It also comes down to this, what does somebody want it to be? What do they believe that it's, and then who's willing to look at the evidence? How much does it cost to get the evidence? How much time do we have to get the evidence? And by the way, we're busy putting another strap on that damn thing, or making it a different color or using it for [00:47:30] some slightly different purpose. I actually think this is where markets take care of what we cannot, and we tend to be somewhat victimized by them. And it's also why the folks who build these incredible products are not exactly, everybody's friend.
Chris Beall (00:47:48):
Steve Jobs is not everybody's friend. Do you think you could name, at the time of his death, could he have named 50 people who are close personal friends of his?
Corey Frank (00:47:59):
Yeah, [00:48:00] for
Chris Beall (00:48:00):
Sure. That would help him out in any situation that he could call. No, that wouldn't happen because his genius, and I'm speculating here, but his genius was he was pretty insistent. And people who are pretty insistent have fewer friends. I insist. I insist if all you say is I insist, and then you fire people who disagree with you, well, you don't have that many friends. But I think that is sometimes as we look at all of these factors, [00:48:30] we don't take into account this fundamental human factor, which is, and we say it about salespeople. We say, oh, well, the need to be liked, that's pretty bad in a salesperson. Oh, really? And exactly. How do we go in and do surgery on somebody's soul so they no longer have a need to be liked by other human beings?
Corey Frank (00:48:49):
Oh, for sure. Chris. Yeah.
Chris Beall (00:48:51):
Come on. Give me a break here.
Corey Frank (00:48:52):
Well, it's funny you bring that up here. As we come up against the top of the hour is so this old book here, right? And [00:49:00] for those at home, it's the Tau te Ching, the book of the Way, written by our friend lasu circa what? Chris? Five, 600 bc. I think something along that a long time.
Chris Beall (00:49:13):
We call that a while ago.
Corey Frank (00:49:14):
Yes. I don't even think you were coding back in 500 bc.
Chris Beall (00:49:17):
Well, I can tell you, Mike, I was writing in Fortran,
Corey Frank (00:49:20):
But exactly what you said, I think we're going to end on this note. This is from one of his lessons, number 27, where he calls hidden values and talk about the need to [00:49:30] be liked and the value of inherent value inside of the folks that inspire innovation. He says, good hikers need no maps. Good speakers need no scripts. Good counters need no abacus. Good guards need no locks. The wises trusting and goodness see the potential in others treating no one as an outcast, trusting, and goodness. They redeem all things. Nothing is worthless [00:50:00] to them. They recognize the real hidden value. The whys take the lost, the seemingly lost under their wings. And so the seemingly lost become newfound treasures of the wise. Each is valuable to the other. This is the significance of spirituality. And when you talk about what we've talked about with the constraints, dealing with the false negatives as well as the false positive, the exhaust, the signals, the innovation, knowing [00:50:30] what to say no to, I think that you really conceptualized exactly why connected cell is so successful, why you're such a great mentor, and all the people you've taken under your wings, the Toms of the world, and everybody in your skunkwork projects, et cetera, because nothing is lost.
Corey Frank (00:50:48):
All these folks have signals and exhaust that can deliver to the bigger picture. So I thought that was very, I was like, I got to find a way to bring this in. And what did you do? You brought it right home [00:51:00] to Ru. So final thoughts, Chris, on the theory constraints, Mr. Lasu, in this episode here, this fanboy episode on ROI Goldratt.
Chris Beall (00:51:12):
Yeah. Well, thank you ROI Goldratt for carrying on this work. It is a boulder that we never get to the top of the hill. It never, this is one of the rare things. Well, not that rare. There's a lot of things in life like this, right, where it never rolls downhill for us, where if we [00:51:30] want it, we have to push it up the hill and theory of constraints is one of those things that will never roll down the hill.
Corey Frank (00:51:37):
But that's the juice though, isn't it? Effort. That exercise is the juice which keeps knuckleheads like you and I still doing this over and over and over again, versus we like the occasional mi Thai in Margarita. But to me at least, I don't want to speak for you, the sage of sales here, but isn't. That's a little bit of the driving force behind it, is that that endless,
Chris Beall (00:51:59):
It's a huge [00:52:00] part. If it were a trivially solvable problem, it would be solved. The understanding of the theory of constraints is fairly straightforward. The acceptance of it is harder. The application of it is idiosyncratic. That's the nature of it. Every system is different from every other system in many, many ways, except for one. They all have one constraint. And so we can count to one, but that doesn't give us the answer. It just tells us we need to go look, [00:52:30] that we need to go look. And it's so difficult in a world where we must value ourselves as others value us. We don't have an alternative to that. We're not very good as a species in playing loner. Some people are better than others, but nobody's perfect at it. And so here we are in a world full of people who need to feel important with a theory of how systems work, a true theory of how [00:53:00] systems work. This is like a unified field theory. It's a done, done that basically says, most of us, most of the time just need to be carrying on, carrying on. We're not that important except to the degree that we're building flexibility for change. Change tricks, not do tricks that sit in our inventory when it's our turn.
Corey Frank (00:53:24):
I love that, especially the aspect of being loners. I'm glad you're not a loner, Chris. Otherwise, this would be the market [00:53:30] dominance guy versus market dominance guys. And so it's always Chris, we're going to let you get back to the fetching, miss Ucci and all the stuff that you guys do. The brilliance that you come out of your dinners and your wines and your walks and everything else in the sales world is much better for it. So for the market, Dominus guys and Chris Beal, this is Corey Frank. Until next time.
Chris Beall (00:53:58):
Alright, Austin, all yours.
Corey Frank (00:54:00):
[00:54:00] Thank you, Chris.
Chris Beall (00:54:01):
We're coming your way. Austin. We're headed down Thursday.
Corey Frank (00:54:05):
Oh, there you go. There you go. Great stuff, Chris. As always, I have this meeting with
Chris Beall (00:54:11):
Sue. I love it. That was so good. That was making my heart go pity, pat. That was really something.
Corey Frank (00:54:18):
Yeah, trusting and goodness. I mean, because all your people, you think about the skunkworks project, you started how many years ago doing that, just even with Galen, the stuff that you do, right? It's like he's not classically trained as a data scientist [00:54:30] and everything. Tom's a musician for gosh sakes, and yet you trust in goodness. They redeem all things. Nothing is worthless to them. One man's trash is another man's treasure, in other words. And so, yeah, I love how counter-cultural that is. I wish it was cultural, but unfortunately it still is counter-cultural and
Chris Beall (00:54:51):
It'll always be. It'll always be. And the forces that move in one direction are moving at all times. Otherwise, the stuff [00:55:00] wouldn't be written thousands of years ago. And still it'd be like, oh yeah, we live in that world.
Corey Frank (00:55:06):
Yeah. Well, it's amazing that just even as a sales leader, this stuff is 3000 years old, nearly 3000 years old, and we still haven't figured out how to manage somebody to their utmost potential. It's like all this stuff we are talking about idiosyncratic to manage those idiosyncrasies, [00:55:30] what do you call it? Idiosyncrasies of all of us. I mean, that's marriage, that's fatherhood.
Chris Beall (00:55:38):
Well, it turns out that as a matter, of course, I suppose when there's complexity, when we're trying to do stuff together, there are almost no short ways. There are profound ways. There are ways that we can understand 'em when we see 'em, but [00:56:00] there's no short ways. There just aren't. And yet we have a constant striving for short ways, and we read stuff and we consult and we put something on the wall and we think that's it. But that's it. It's very different from, that's it in execution. Think of your body. 50 trillion cells have got to collaborate, and they have to collaborate hundreds of thousands of times a second in order just to have you be [00:56:30] an organism and not complain about something. Yeah, right. Exactly.
Chris Beall (00:56:38):
And we have such odd ideas, these odd hierarchical ideas. I'm reading an old book, 10 years old, not thousands, by this guy, Lipton. It's called The Biology of Belief, and basically the thesis of the book is pretty simple, which is book, [00:57:00] let's face it, big organisms like us, 50 trillion cell organisms have some specialization going on with regard to this nervous system that its job first and foremost is tell you when to dock. That's its real job. You ever have somebody throw a brick at your head, it'll do its job before you know that it's done its job, and then you'll tell yourself a story about how you always saw it coming. In fact, if you're still there afterwards, you saw it coming a little bit late, but you still [00:57:30] got out of the way, right? Yeah. We have this superpower, which is to control the actions of subsets of these cells right down to inside of them, how they express the genetic material they have as proteins and how those proteins are folded.
Chris Beall (00:57:49):
And he makes the point, the membrane of a cell is the brain. The D n A is like a recipe book, but the membrane decides what comes in [00:58:00] and what must go out under what circumstances. And that's the definition of intelligence. What do I accept in and what do I exclude? The thousand things. I exclude the one thing, and is it time to go for stuff, or is it time to protect myself? Wow. What circumstances I find myself in, I've got 50 trillion cells right now, and so that are each working on that principle at this moment with little proteins that can fold and unfold a thousand times a second. So to think that we kind [00:58:30] of get it and reduce it to an aphorism on the wall, that aphorism might make us think in a way that is good according to us, which is probably as far as it goes, and according to people that the other organisms that we hang with you and me together and so forth, the influence is not small. We think. It's not like, oh, it's a miracle that our subconscious [00:59:00] mind controls the expression of whether we heal from a cut. That's a miracle. No, that's actually the only way it could be. Actually wouldn't work another way. There's not like, well, your finger is not detached from you. If I cut off my finger, then cut my finger, it doesn't heal itself.
Corey Frank (00:59:23):
Yeah, that's fascinating. It sounds like the next evolution of sapiens, right? After you read Sapiens, you got to read [00:59:30] Lipton.
Chris Beall (00:59:30):
Yeah. Lipton is kind of a crazy radical guy. He is a molecular, he's not a molecular biologist, cell biologist in some sense. He's out there until you really think about it. Then you go, no, actually, this is the most commonplace way to understand things.
Corey Frank (00:59:48):
Oh, I got to read that. I love
Chris Beall (00:59:49):
That. And I ask people sometimes to do this thought experiment, which is so, have you ever had a jalapeno pepper? You were bitten into one. [01:00:00] Think of that right now. Did you salivate?
Corey Frank (01:00:04):
I
Chris Beall (01:00:04):
Did imagine biting into a jalapeno. Nothing happened. There's no jalapeno, right? But your salivary glands we're convinced, completely convinced that you're biting into one of those things right now.
Corey Frank (01:00:19):
Yeah, the brick is coming. The proverbial brick is coming duck.
Chris Beall (01:00:22):
Exactly. So anyway, I'm finding Lipton be desire, really fun to read and meaningful, and [01:00:30] kind of gets me doing different things, which is I think what we need from others is like, get me unstuck a little bit. I find myself repeating myself.
Corey Frank (01:00:41):
Yeah, no, no, I agree. Chris. No, this is such great stuff. It's such great stuff. I'm going to send this to Rami and this episode I told him that, hey, you probably got two guys in the States here who probably talk about you more than they should, and so [01:01:00] I'll send this. So he was interested in that. So I'll send him this episode here when we post on LinkedIn, et cetera, and see how he responds. But great stuff as always. How's business otherwise good?
Chris Beall (01:01:13):
Yeah, I mean it's, lemme do this. Bye Austin.
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
The guys are back together! Join our master salesmen Corey Frank and Chris Beall as they dive into this discussion on business strategy inspired by a recent event Corey attended featuring Rami Goldratt of the Theory of Constraints Institute. Discussing key concepts like inertia, identifying constraints, and the politics involved, they provide insight for sales managers and CROs looking to break through barriers to growth. Chris explains how constraints manifest on the buyer's side, in their emotions and feelings of possibility. On the execution side, he advocates building key elements in advance to avoid delays. He and Corey cover divisional vs departmental structure, M&A pitfalls, and more insights. Join them for this episode, “Divisional vs. Departmental – Structure for Sales Innovation.”
Full episode transcript below:
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Corey Frank (00:00:04):
Here we are once again. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, with Corey Frank, and of course the Sage of Sales, the prophet of Profit, the Hawking of Hawking, Chris Beal. Chris, it's been a minute or two since the two of us have been in the same virtual room. How are you?
Chris Beall (00:00:23):
I'm doing great. We must be like busy little bees out taking our flowers to task and doing our
Corey Frank (00:00:30):
[00:00:30] Thing. Exactly. We don't have the time. I wish we did to post prolifically on LinkedIn, but I think you and I both have businesses to run sometimes, so that gets in the way, doesn't it?
Chris Beall (00:00:40):
Sad business. Indeed. But you know what? Somebody's got to do
Corey Frank (00:00:44):
It. Oh, hey, listen, we depend on the Gerry Hills of the world and the Ryan Reiserts of the world and the Sean Ceases of the world to write so prolifically and so poetically and so elegantly, and then steal their ideas at scale. So [00:01:00] that's certainly what I do. I speak for myself, of course, but I love their writings in particular and there's many, many, many more out there. Hey, in the meantime, since the last time we had spoken and met a lot of folks, I know Taylor Swift has been in the news on a concert tour and then the Rolling Stones have had a tour that was kind of going and then interrupted and it's starting again. And then Ed Sheeran also was recently on tour, [00:01:30] but I think although both of us, we kind of like music, we had a different tour that I figured that I'd share with you, and I sent you my picture, my Taylor Swift, our Taylor Swift, our Mick Jagger, and our Ed Sheeran. And that of course is Rami Goldratt from the Theory of Constraints Institute. He came to town on a special concert tour, and of course I had to drop everything and send you a selfie with a master himself because that's how we roll, [00:02:00] right? As the other eight listeners on this podcast, I think that's what we care about is anything and everything with regards to market dominance and certainly the theory constraints plays a big part of that, doesn't it, Chris?
Chris Beall (00:02:11):
Oh yeah. I mean the whole market dominance concept is built on the theory of constraints. As you know, I have a disciple of fanatic, and the trick with these things is they give you a framework to think, but you still need to think and you still need to do experiments, and you also need to look into your own mind and your heart and say, [00:02:30] am I looking at this objectively or am I playing mind games with myself? So that's what makes it so interesting.
Corey Frank (00:02:38):
It does. It crosses, although as you had educated me all those 10 plus years ago on Eli Gold Rat and that it was meant originally for the manufacturing space, I think what we've done here on the market dominance guys, certainly with your tutelage, is open up the minds of so many sales professionals like myself [00:03:00] that this transcends the manufacturing space into what we do in running sales organizations. Correct?
Chris Beall (00:03:07):
To me, sales is actually manufacturing. I mean, we're manufacturing the opportunity to solve a problem and supposedly we've come with a potential solution. Somebody has a problem that we could potentially help them with, but manufacturing that opportunity to solve a problem and to do it in a way that works for everybody. The other constraint, if you're going to do it over and over, [00:03:30] it's got to work for everybody. I mean, some folks in sales have been known to wear out their welcome a little bit here and there, but that's not sort of the ultimate game. So yeah, I'm a manufacturing oriented guy. I used to build manufacturing systems and software and spend a lot of time on factory floors and out in distribution centers, and when you make it physical, it gets real. That's one of the interesting things about the whole world of software is as soon as you make it physical, it gets very, very real. [00:04:00] And as you know, I'm married to Helen Ucci, who herself started her career as a manufacturing engineer. She's a M I T trained mechanical engineer. So you can imagine around our house on a Saturday morning when we're talking shop, it's pretty good if everybody else just stays home and NAS on a bagel.
Corey Frank (00:04:20):
Absolutely. Oh, for sure. Well, that's what I think we want to talk about here. If I could indulge you and indulge again our eight listeners here on diving a little deep, I want to [00:04:30] throw out a couple of observations from the two and a half hours that I was privileged to spend with ROI Goldratt and get your reaction. I was giving you a little bit of play byplay afterwards and certainly sent you some pictures, but I'd like if I could just kind of get some reaction and of course to level set the audience for some of the folks that haven't listened to probably about half our podcast. We talk in one form or another about the theory of constraints and business innovation. And one of the things that [00:05:00] Rami does to set to level set everybody is that if you look at your business as a whole and understand what governs the flow and constrains the business growth, that's how you should think about what we're about talk about here in the next few minutes with Chris Beal. So Chris, what Rami says and what Eli stated in the goal in the other books is that typically there's one or [00:05:30] two constraints, and I think you just hit one when you're talking about the development of software, he says that there's one generally constraint in the creation of value, and then there's another typical constraint in the execution of its delivery.
Corey Frank (00:05:45):
So the creation of value and the execution of delivery. And obviously part of it is focusing on elevating these constraints because these are those leverage points that help the business. But what do you say with [00:06:00] that in a sales world when you talk about would you agree with that in the creation of value and then in the creation of its delivery? And how would you square that circle for us in sales when it comes to those two constraints that we're faced with pretty often?
Chris Beall (00:06:17):
Yeah, it's so fascinating. I look at it from the buyer's side. And so where is the value going to be created in a relevant way in sales? It's actually inside the buyer's body, it's [00:06:30] inside their emotions. And so if the buyer responds to what the salesperson is saying to them, and it's generally saying that does it, we don't do a lot else. We don't take dance for them and we don't give 'em a massage and we don't do any of these other things that we might consider doing. We're pretty much in the saying business when it comes to sales, fortunately saying is enough to get some motion in that other person's body, but for the buyer, [00:07:00] the value shows up in what is really a feeling of possibilities, a feeling that, hey, this could go in a direction that's worth taking another step. And that's really interesting because sales is all about management of uncertainty.
Chris Beall (00:07:17):
And when we're in a theory of constraints world, there's this big question which is, well, where's the bottleneck? Right? Where's the constraint? And the answer as we start in a sales relationship from the buy side is, [00:07:30] I don't know, it's your job as the salesperson to guide me toward my constraint so that I have a feeling about it that includes the following. Oh yes, there it is, and we can do something about it. We can do something about it. And maybe it's just, I can do something about it. Thanks for educating me, but we can do something. When it comes to delivery, what's the equivalent of delivery and sales? So the value is created inside me as a buyer, and [00:08:00] it's an emotional state. It doesn't have a lot of intellectual qualities to it. I just feel like here's somebody who seems to be an expert and they seem to be on my side.
Chris Beall (00:08:10):
And we know from Oren's work, the stuff that happens within a pitch helps the buyer to get to the point of saying, yeah, this is an expert and they're on my side with the flash roll establishes you as an expert and the kind of offer, the fact that you can help that person, show them how to get through [00:08:30] the buying process because you understand it well, that shows you're on their side, you're going to show them sort of the easy way, but then you actually have to do it. And I think a lot of sales folks can talk that game that gets somebody to feel right, but as the steps start to be executed, then the question is, well, we still don't know where the constraint is because a sale is, this is where manufacturing breaks down as an analogy. [00:09:00] So Gold Wrap wrote a very, very good book that I think that most folks don't dive into very far.
Chris Beall (00:09:09):
So everybody's into the manufacturing analogy. I love the book Critical Chain, critical about projects, and it basically says this, I'm going to paraphrase it badly. Go read the book, don't listen to me now, go read the book and don't listen to me. But having stuck around this long, you're listening to me. So listen to me, and this sounds a little [00:09:30] obstru, but just bear with me. The constraint on a project according to Gold Rat is the critical path of the project itself. So you lay out the steps and the critical path is like, this got to happen and this got to happen, this got to happen, this has got to happen, or you don't get there. So actually in a sense, there's that tie between the critical path and strategy in a business. Strategy is a set of steps that if we take a step, it reduces the cost and the risk of taking the next step [00:10:00] that gets us closer to our goal kind of sounds like a project we complete part of the project, it gets us closer to with regard to risk and cost the next step, which gets us to the next and the next and the next.
Chris Beall (00:10:13):
One of the things that is so interesting to me and utterly ignored by most folks in sales, and yet it makes or breaks almost every deal is the feeders. So the critical path is what you must manage, and one of the [00:10:30] ways you manage it is you pre-build the inventory that it needs to consume. So say you have a contract that you're going to have to get to at some point, a really smart thing to do is to pre-build everything about that contract, including the specifics you're learning along the way. So when you get to that point, the cycle time between, Hey, we need this contract to move forward in a physical form, it might be a DocuSign, it may be a Word document or whatever, [00:11:00] but we need it. Oh, do we have to go make it? Now that introduces cycle time and brings Murphy into play.
Chris Beall (00:11:08):
Murphy's law is going to always prevail over time. And the critical chain, we're told, Hey, take the last entire third of the project and just make a buffer. Don't buffer the individual steps buffer the entire last third of the project because Murphy's going to show up. But the way we fight Murphy is to pre-provision the feeders [00:11:30] and a contract's, an example, a demo schedule as an example, having a resource that you've pre briefed rather than briefing them at the last second so they can help on a deal as an example. And I think great salespeople know how to manage the feeders that are coming into the critical path while they personally manage the critical path itself. We often just say to salespeople, get a next step, get a next step. But what if the next step requires something that comes in from the side? [00:12:00] Did we have it staged? Is it ready to go? So that's the execution part to me.
Corey Frank (00:12:07):
No, I love that. One of the quotes that Rami put up for his father is a great value does not sell itself. And when you look at the steps that you just outlined here, how many times have we spoken about the product folks? We'll build something that they think is ready for the market, throw it over the fence [00:12:30] to the sales organization and the sales leaders get frustrated at the sales reps because they overhired to account for the quota that they need to hit on their spreadsheet to deliver to their board. And so I'm managing by a spreadsheet and say, Hey, I have five reps. I'm over spreading the quota, so really all I need is three of 'em to hit 80% and I should hit my number. And then when all of 'em hit 40 or 50%, then they start to panic and then they say, wait a minute, this product [00:13:00] is good enough to sell itself.
Corey Frank (00:13:02):
And I think part of the realization, certainly from talking with you all these years is that quote from Proust, I think it is, he says, the real voyage of discovery consists in not in seeking new boundaries or new landscapes, but in having new eyes. And when you can go into an organization and not seek new landscape and boundaries, [00:13:30] but just have a fresh set of eyes on this and math of sales, breaking it down to the ludicrous conversation, conversion rate, demos per hour, right? The epiphany that all these things we've talked about all over these years is those are new innovations, if you will, in our space, in our sales space just by having new eyes.
Chris Beall (00:13:53):
Yeah. Well, novelty is a very inexpensive way to get option value, novelty of perception [00:14:00] of somebody else's point of view. You don't have to do much. It operates in parallel and everyone has an opinion, so they give it to you very inexpensively, unless they're an expensive consultant. Some people come in, they give you the really great stuff. I'll never forget being in a room where Jeffrey Moore walked in and gave us the most valuable two days of consulting, which boiled down to this, you guys are not across the chasm. You're a pre chasm company. Your product is pre chasm, adopt a pre [00:14:30] chasm strategy. Now, he could have just said that that would've been straightforward, but it had to be a new set of eyes that were opened in us. Our eyes had to become new. That's what great consultants do, great teachers is they give you new eyes. And we could tell we had new eyes. We started having arguments about stuff we didn't argue about before we had disagreements about the non-obvious.
Corey Frank (00:14:55):
Well, let's talk about that because I think this is one that you've certainly [00:15:00] waxed on many times and that is dear to the folks in the theory constraints is the concept of inertia. So I want to get a couple of riffs from you on inertia and that in business we sometimes oftentimes too, oftentimes act in the same way even when we need to change. And we're caught in this inertia. And you had said something very wise to me several times, is that the [00:15:30] best breakthroughs happen when you are stuck,
Corey Frank (00:15:35):
But yet you talk about Jeffrey Moore coming in and this new fresh out of eyes. But what do you have to say when certainly a lot of the businesses that you deal with that call you in, they're arguably at a state of inertia. They need a force to act upon them, to get them in motion oftentimes, and they're out of novelty. They have no more novelty left in the [00:16:00] tank to create the illusion of motion, and they're stuck with their board and their numbers. So what do you do in those situations? And do you agree that a lot of businesses that are in this state of sales, they're going to hire more sales folks or they're going to do all these other things, but in essence they're really at the state of inertia?
Chris Beall (00:16:19):
Yeah, inertia is stuck, I think are really related to each other because when we're, first of all, just to remind anybody who didn't catch whatever episode we talked about, the three states [00:16:30] one can be in companies are in these states often, which is you're either in flow, which is rare or wonderful and just stay there or you are stuck, which is the hardest one to recognize. You're stuck. That means you need to learn something to move forward. You don't need to do something to move forward. Now, you might need to do something to learn something, but your issue is lack of knowledge. You don't know what to do. And then there's the last one, which is waiting. Waiting [00:17:00] is very rare. Waiting is actually what critical chain is about, is don't put in a state where you're waiting. If you could have avoided waiting by building a feeder that is staged early, the problem with being stuck as a social problem, and it's a problem of recognizing that it's time to put your self-image aside just a little bit, and the need to be seen as all knowing and admit that you're not knowing [00:17:30] because this is the obvious problem of being stuck in.
Chris Beall (00:17:34):
And the problem of inertia come down to the same thing. Why do we have inertia? Well, we repeat what isn't working because at least we're acting knowledgeably. We're acting like we know what's going on, and our reputation is worth way more to us than any results. There is nobody in business except for maybe Elon Musk who says, reputation be damned. I'm just going for it. Right? That's [00:18:00] actually the characteristic of these people who produce these astonishing things. The Steve Jobs is the Warren Buffets, right? Do you think Warren Buffet cares about his reputation compared to just making great investments? He writes that brilliant letter every year that looks like he cares about his reputation, but in fact, it's a means for him not to have to care about his reputation because he's basically laying out transparently how he thinks. And his reputation, therefore, is of somebody who lays [00:18:30] out transparently how he thinks, and you can trust him.
Chris Beall (00:18:33):
And therefore, if you want to buy a share of stock, which is now worth, God knows how much in his company, well, you can go ahead and do that. And by the way, he's not waiting for you to do it. He's fine if you don't. So those two are really together. I think the main role of somebody from the outside and only somebody from the outside can do this, by the way, no man is a prophet in his own country. The job of a consultant is to come in [00:19:00] and allow the team to recognize, especially their leader, to recognize we're stuck. And that's okay. So the first thing the consultant really ultimately does is says, look, getting stuck like this in whatever language they use for it is pretty much inevitable. It would be weird to be in flow forever, and it would be strange to be waiting and not doing anything.
Chris Beall (00:19:23):
So you're doing the same thing over and over. It feels like progress, but you note the numbers say it's not progress, [00:19:30] and you're tired of telling yourself stories about how it's progress when it's not progress. And so you're stuck. And now let's step back, get a little bit of slack, and in that slack we'll do something that corresponds to learning. Now, one of the problems with different kinds of companies is like our company, we're bootstrapped. So a bootstrap company like connect and sell never feels stuck because every day [00:20:00] you're off selling for two purposes. One is the simple-minded purpose, I'll call it the banana stand purpose, got to sell enough bananas to keep the lights on or keep the permit. It allows us to stand here on the corner and sell bananas. We have to pay the tax. We have to, I don't know, pay the protection money, whatever it happens to be.
Chris Beall (00:20:23):
The other one is, but wait, we're going somewhere. We're going somewhere. And that's [00:20:30] the reason the bootstrap companies are so difficult and also so admired when they pull it off is how do you go somewhere when you're also just trying to keep the wheels on the bus? That's a tricky thing. And it comes down to just recognizing you're stuck faster. There has to be an element of what feels like a little chaos at the edge, which is really the exploration of your stuckness to get you out. You can't hire a consultant every time you're stuck. Love to
Corey Frank (00:20:59):
Steve [00:21:00] Jobs. One of the quotes that Romy talked about is Steve Jobs says innovation is saying no to a thousand things.
Corey Frank (00:21:09):
And these bootstrap companies like you and I and have had, and I think all of your companies and all my companies have been relatively bootstrapped. Occasionally, if you get vc, you just spend it like drunken sailors and high mountain blueberries and Brazilian te Quin tables and all the necessities of life. So you think, [00:21:30] but you talk about this innovation, Chris, that companies have go through, especially as banana stand companies, where you have this expansion and you have this convergent knowing when to do this and knowing when to do that. How do you still focus on knowing which limitation, which constraint is the one that's holding your business back a lot of noise. You still have to hit payroll, you got to hit [00:22:00] your cash number, you got to still grow. And you as, again, any devotee of this podcast knows is that if you're a c e O and you're still not selling, that's a problem at least several times a week on the phones. So how do you balance all that knowing that job says it's saying no to a thousand things. There's a constraint. You know, want to kind of exhaust the novelty factor your pre chasm. How do I innovate to determine what is my guiding true north to know [00:22:30] that I'm on the right path?
Chris Beall (00:22:32):
It's a tough one. I think the main thing that we need to do, if we want to innovate, we have to innovate. We have to innovate just means doing new stuff that makes a difference. So if we just keep doing the old stuff, our issue is not that the old stuff will stop working. Our issue is that somebody else will figure out the new stuff. And in modern markets, unless you have physical control over your market, I sell hot dogs in Northeast Anchorage [00:23:00] on Tuesday afternoons maybe, but somebody will come along and go hotdog and brats. Oh, brats beer. So those are innovations in that kind of business, and it's difficult to control markets, and this whole program is about controlling markets. So if you don't innovate, your real issue is somebody will, and when they do, they'll do something that you will retreat from.
Chris Beall (00:23:28):
This is the whole innovator's [00:23:30] dilemma problem. That is if you're first, you're the innovators, the innovator. I think it's funny, I probably said this before, folks read Clayton Christensen's book, the Late Great Clayton Christensen wrote a book, the Innovator's Dilemma, and then some others that were the solution and so forth, and they think, oh yeah, the new guy's the innovator. That book is about you are the first guy, you're the innovator, and now you're going to be attacked by a disruptor. So if you're first, [00:24:00] we were first in this industry with the push a button, talk to somebody thing, we are ripe for disruption because whatever we're doing is whatever we're doing is more than is required because we had to do things and do other things to do other things. And they accrete, you don't throw away very fast. So jobs used to throw things away with a certain ferocity, I would say, and that's when he rejoined Apple. Somebody said, well, what's going to happen? [00:24:30] I said, A whole lot less is going to happen than you think and one new thing's going to happen. You didn't think of. Yeah,
Corey Frank (00:24:35):
Get rid of open docs. One of the famous decisions at Apple is getting rid of the open docs and how disruptive that was when he came back.
Chris Beall (00:24:44):
The fact is there's a reason the theory of constraints itself is hard to apply in business, and it's because it's exactly this thing about the thousand things. Your business has one constraint, one a system, and systems can only have one constraint. [00:25:00] This is what everybody hates about the theory of constraints. They hate it viscerally. It says this, everybody else has got to keep on keeping on. While, by the way, if you're really clever, very inexpensively building some inventory of things you know how to do, should it be your turn? Should you become your organization? What you do becomes the constraint. So you have this preparatory work to do that has no payoff whatsoever. Now, [00:25:30] if you were to apply it, it doesn't move the needle because you're not the constraint. So you're suddenly politically impotent hunt because you're not the constraint. And a wise company finds the constraint, characterizes the constraint, understands it's cycle time, it's throughput, it's quality, figures out how to invest in it, what the investment would yield, does an experiment to find out if that's in fact true and then goes and makes the investment widens, the constraint flow goes through and the constraint moves one way or the other.
Chris Beall (00:25:59):
It moves downstream [00:26:00] because they can't handle it down there or moves upstream because it sucks down in all the inventory that you had that you thought was so great and now you're out of inputs. Right? Okay, so they're doing that. Who likes it? Who does it make look good?
Chris Beall (00:26:18):
Well, if you're under the microscope, at least you're getting attention. Yes. If you're not, you're feeling neglect. And the politics of attention and neglect are highly asymmetric in [00:26:30] a company with regard to folks feeling about their own future. Therefore, the theory of constraints always is rolling a rock up a hill, up a hill of influence, politics, and how hard is it to sabotage the notion that there's only one constraint? So the standard fight against the theory of constraints in sales or in business is this, no, no, no. There's many constraints. Well, mathematically, there can only be one [00:27:00] in some curve, somewhere. There is one minimum. I mean, trust me, it may be a little difference, but there's one, and folks hate it. They hate it. It makes them feel insignificant unless they are at the point of constraint, at which point they feel under too much pressure.
Corey Frank (00:27:20):
Really? That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So that's the political ramifications, that's the political reality, the [00:27:30] psycho reality of identifying a constraint. It's difficult to identify it enough on a spreadsheet, but now that you have these personalities, right, department heads, marketing production, product delivery, finance capital, whatever it is, that makes it even more of a political landmine, which probably makes it easier for an outside consultant to navigate that versus doing it internally.
Chris Beall (00:28:00):
[00:28:00] Exactly. And one of the structural ways to address this is divisionalized instead of departmentalized. So we seek leverage in departmentalization, this department's going to take care of this function. Well, one of the problems with that is now you only have one thing in the company to work at, which is whatever the constraint is, it's now in one department, if you divisionalized and accept the inefficiency [00:28:30] of having some replication of function, you have a joy that shows up incredible power. You get two constraints. It's not one system, it's two systems. Divisions operate sufficiently independently that each one gets to act like its own company. And if it has a supplier upstream called the corporation or downstream called the corporation that it buys on transfer prices or whatever, then well, that's its problem. It's not the [00:29:00] corporation's problem. So you end up with this very interesting situation, and there are extremist companies in this regard.
Chris Beall (00:29:07):
Thermo Electron is one of 'em. Three M is one of them companies that basically said, we're going to divisionalized at such a fine level that we're just going to absorb the inefficiency through the power of what is essentially an odd thing on the balance sheet, which is the power of innovation. And we're going to just have faith [00:29:30] that the innovation is going to sparkle here and there sufficiently that it's going to allow us to be a little less efficient when we seek efficiency. We drive multiple systems down to one system. If you and I decide, oh, we're not going to do this podcast anymore like this. What we're going to do is the podcast where we both get together and agree about everything about the podcast, that it's podcast core from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, we only have one constraint in the podcast at that point.
Chris Beall (00:30:00):
[00:30:00] We better agree on it. And if it makes you feel unimportant or me feel unimportant, or Susan or Austin or whoever, you got a problem. So we have a pipeline where we come in independently, we talk, each one of us gets talk as much as we want, although I talk more than you do, Austin does. His thing is, as long as a podcast shows up, a recording shows up, there's work to do. And that's interesting because that [00:30:30] allows his and Susan's business to move to turn the crank that one time. That's a key input and the thing kind of works, right? So there's a tendency, and this happens in m and a. So in m and a, the big mistake that folks make now in m and a is to consolidate the C R M systems. It's the standard error. It's like the standard model in physics has all these funny particles and all this.
Chris Beall (00:30:57):
The standard error in mergers and [00:31:00] acquisitions is this, well, since our thesis is we're going to cross-sell two kinds of m and a, but one of them tends to involve cross-sell, right? One of 'em is tuck-ins, and you just get market from buying customers. And the other is the cross-sell thesis. So in the cross-sell thesis, which is the power thesis, we go, oh, we're cross-sell this company, we buy its products are going to be sold to our big base and vice versa. Isn't that great? [00:31:30] Well, we better consolidate our CRMs because until we do that, we have the same customer representative, multiple CRMs. Well, as soon as you consolidate your CRMs, what you tend to do is to create a situation first after a lot of time and expense that yields nothing. You create a situation where you're now bottlenecked somewhere inside that C R m and nobody knows how that works, and it's no longer allowed to change.
Chris Beall (00:31:59):
It [00:32:00] was so hard to get it to where you wanted to get it. That's where the sunk cost investment issues. So the gamblers paradox or fallacy or whatever you want to call it, tend to come in. It's like we put so much into that, we can't change it for sure. So it's a huge mistake when you buy a company. One thing you should never do is consolidate the C R m, let the C R M stay with that company, figure out cross-sell through a friendly relationship between now two companies that happen [00:32:30] to be together and by the way, be prepared to pay compensation to multiple salespeople. Or before you had one, that's the tax you're going to get ready to pay it.
Corey Frank (00:32:41):
One plus one equals one or one plus one equals three, or one plus one equals 11, right? Those are exactly
Chris Beall (00:32:46):
Really
Corey Frank (00:32:47):
The alternatives when you do that. Yeah, that's fascinating.
Corey Frank continues his interview with Susan Finch as they talk about perfecting your craft and the importance of a supportive and evaluative community in the journey. This leads to an insightful discussion that draws parallels between renowned comedians and training sales professionals. Corey uses the example of comedians like Jim Gaffigan, Chris Rock, and Jerry Seinfeld testing new material in heartland towns to underscore the significance of knowing your audience and how practicing your craft in smaller venues can sometimes offer more genuine feedback than large, more famous platforms.
Listen in as Corey recounts the story of hotdog-eating champion Kobayashi, drawing lessons on questioning the conventional and pushing the boundaries of what's possible. They emphasize the power of not just aiming for more but seeking ways to make the process more efficient. Join them if you're keen on exploring the intricacies of the sales profession, the art of feedback, and the significance of pushing boundaries in this episode, “Making Seinfeld Laugh: The Sales Professional’s Aim.”
Corey Frank welcome Susan Finch to talk about humility, sales training, and sushi. If you've ever wondered how to turn water into wine without being at a wedding in Cana. Today's discussion is all about nurturing the greenhorns and newbies by diving into how to nurture the budding talent fresh from school or those having a "Is this my life?" moment. Corey expounds on why humility isn’t just for monks in monasteries but crucial in the sales world too. Drawing unexpected life lessons from the likes of the book 'The Alchemist' to 'Giro Dreams of Sushi' - yes, a sushi documentary, because why not? - this episode promises a roller coaster ride through the heart of sales strategies. Listen to the first half of this conversation, "Humility's on the Menu: Serving Sales Success Sashimi-style!"
In this episode, Chris dives deep into the intricacies and pitfalls of sales tooling, questioning the effectiveness of piling on more tools and the notion of an 'Uber tool.' Chris explores the impedance mismatch between the world of sales tools and the neurodiversity of salespeople, highlighting the challenges faced by salespeople who switch attention frequently and the toll it takes on their productivity. With references to a recent Forrester article, an insight into sales conversations, and a sprinkle of Beall's Laws, Chris delves into the complexities of sales processes, the importance of meaningful conversations, and the hurdles of creating a one-size-fits-all tool. Tune in as Chris discusses the present and future of sales technology, neurodiversity, and the search for an optimal toolset. Join us for this episode, "Decoding the One-Stop Shop Sales Tool."
In this episode, Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell, discusses various challenges faced by B2B sales leaders in the modern business landscape. With Corey Frank, CEO of Branch49, absent from the co-host chair, Chris invited ChatGPT to take a seat. He starts by introducing the idea of asking ChatGPT about challenges in B2B sales. He touches on the challenge of coaching sales reps, particularly their first failure points in conversations. Chris explains how technology, such as the one developed by Symbl.ai, can help identify these first failure points and support reps in improving their performance.
Chris stresses that addressing these challenges requires a combination of strategic thinking, technological proficiency, people management skills, and deep industry understanding.
Some of the challenges covered include:
- Adapting to Technological Change
- Understanding Customer Needs
- Compliance and Regulation
- Maintaining Quality Lead Generation
- Managing Sales Team Performance
- Pricing Strategies in a Competitive Market
- Cultural and Geographical Differences
- Integrating Sales with Other Business Functions
- Economic Uncertainties
Today's adventure is a jaunt on the high seas with Chris Beall's wife, Helen Fanucci, the sailing extraordinaire (before she even became his better half).
Now, my sailing skills are on par with a landlocked pirate. But no matter because this story isn't just about boats and briny waters – it's a tale of drive, insight, and a dash of brilliance that'll leave you pondering your business compass.
Picture it: a sun-soaked day, a boat called J80, and Helen Fanucci – a mechanical maestro with a thirst for precision. Amidst the waves, she spots a teeny metal tab on the mast, having a bit of a tiff with its groove.
But here's the twist – she didn't pounce on the problem like a hungry seagull on a French fry. Oh no! She executed a strategic dance of action and contemplation. Think of it as a chess grandmaster swapping their knight for a piña colada mid-game. The result? A symphony of decisions, a triumphant "click," and a lesson that'll rock your business boat. Join Chris for the full story in this episode, "Sales Insights Using Sailing Strategies for Business Success."
In this episode, we step in with the AI sales tango. Corey, our tree-hugging sales champ, questions if AI can replace good old empathy. Our resident sales physicist, Chris chimes in, revealing AI as your trusty confidant, not a sales rival.
Chris dishes out AI secrets: it's an emotional prosthetic, erasing self-doubt and boosting confidence. It's like AI saying, "You've got this!" Corey and Chris tag-team AI's power in sales—providing insights, suggesting next moves, and extinguishing self-doubt. AI's not stealing the spotlight; it's your backup dancer, complementing your sales swagger.
They salsa through the AI-human tango, admitting AI won't replace human connection magic. But it's the GPS guiding you through the sales maze. The bottom line? Episode 191 busts the myth: AI isn't your enemy; it's your trusty sidekick on the sales stage. Join us for this episode, “Boosting Your Sales Swagger with AI As Your Backup Dancer."
Linked from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49 ConnectAndSell
Are you looking to gain a competitive edge in your sales process? Are you interested in understanding what lies deep inside your sales funnel and pipeline to drive more revenue? Then you don't want to miss this episode!
Join our Market Dominanc Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank, as they dive deep into the world of sales technology and AI-powered tools. Discover the true advantage of understanding and optimizing the flow rate within your sales projects. Learn why it's essential to focus on time as the denominator when measuring success rather than vanity metrics like conversion rates.
They provide valuable insights on discerning whether a tool truly de-risks your sales path and reduces friction or merely adds to your tech stack inventory without tangible results. Explore the fascinating concept of "speed beats free" and why pushing time on the denominator matters more than dream outcomes in sales.
Join us for this episode, “AI for Sales? Don’t be ‘Candy Crush’ Complacent
Chris Beall and Corey Frank take us on a nostalgic journey through the evolution of sales tech and the intriguing world of AI. They start with a blast from the past, reminiscing about a 1960s AI program called Eliza, which acted as a non-directive therapist, fooling people into thinking it was a friend. Fast forward to the present day, they question the true value of CRM systems, pondering whether they actually help make money or just keep salespeople organized.
Corey shares a road trip story of stumbling upon racks of rock salt in Alabama, sparking the idea of the right people selling the right tools. Chris passionately emphasizes that onboarding salespeople should involve engaging them in discovery meetings from day one to boost their success.
This episode encourages sales managers and CEOs to rethink their sales tech strategies, focus on revenue-generating activities, and find the perfect balance between the human touch and AI. Join us for “Rock Salt & Roll: Unraveling Sales Tech's Mystery.”
Linked from this episode:
EP9: How to Harvest Authentic Trust in your Discovery Calls
Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49 ConnectAndSell
Chris unravels the enchanting world of manufacturing. Gone are the days of painstakingly crafting artifacts one by one, like our Stone Age ancestors. Now, we're immersed in the art of flow manufacturing, where tanks channel the flow of chemicals, and even discreet manufacturing dances to the rhythm of flow. It's a symphony of efficiency where our sales teams manufacture opportunities, creating the invaluable currency of option value.
Chris urges us to view our sales organizations as factories where identifying bottlenecks and maximizing flow rates are the keys to success. In this world, conversion rates become the icing on the cake, but only after we've mastered the flow.
Finally, Chris challenges the age-old debate of quality versus quantity and reminds us that we're left with nothing without quantity. Join us for this episode, "Bottlenecks Beware: Flow Rates Coming to Crash the Party!"
The game isn't won with the buzzer shot. The game is won by endless hours of preparing for the buzzer shot. Chris and Susan dive deep into the often-overlooked topic of prospecting costs and return on investment (ROI). Chris's passion for the subject shines through as he challenges conventional thinking and emphasizes the importance of time as the ultimate business denominator. He reveals that traditional efficiency metrics like conversion rates and ratios have little to do with business success. Instead, he argues that prospecting is about maximizing the value of every hour and building a robust pipeline. Chris expertly breaks down prospecting ROI, highlighting the investment in time and the need to attribute pipeline growth back to conversations.
Throughout the episode, they share pro tips and emphasize the need for a strategic and holistic approach to prospecting beyond research and follow-ups. This engaging discussion is a must-listen for sales professionals looking to unlock the true potential of prospecting and boost their ROI. Join Chris and Susan for this episode, "Prospecting Costs and ROI: Dollars Spent, Dollars Missed."
Links from this episode:
Susan Finch on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Funnel Media Group ConnectAndSell
Chris and Corey asked me to prepare you for a mind-expanding journey as we take Dr. Goldratt’s theory of constraints beyond its traditional boundaries and revolutionize the way you approach sales. Discover the art of identifying the true constraint and learn why pulling together as a team can sometimes snap the traces. We uncover the secrets of critical paths, buffers, and the profound impact of time in the fast-paced sales arena. Embrace your inner rebel and challenge the norms by seeking fresh perspectives from other disciplines.
But wait, there's more! Get inspired by the legendary story of competitive eater Kobe and his unconventional strategies that shattered records. We'll show you how to think outside the bun and achieve unprecedented sales success. Join us for this episode covering mastering sales success by unleashing the power of constraints and revolutionary strategies but we’ll just call it, “Hot Dogs and Hot Deals: Devouring Sales Records!"
Chris and Corey continue their conversation with Dr. Mindy Weinstein, as they delve deep into the psychology behind scarcity and its profound impact on consumer behavior. You'll uncover invaluable insights on how scarcity appeals to different generations, especially the younger demographic, and how you can leverage this powerful phenomenon to drive sales success. Drawing from their wealth of experience, Corey and Chris share practical strategies on positioning salespeople as indispensable resources in a scarce market, fostering authentic connections, and building trust through genuine expertise. By the end of this episode, you'll be equipped with actionable tips and powerful communication techniques to elevate your sales game and unleash your full potential. Don't miss out on this opportunity to transform your sales approach—tune in now and unlock the untapped potential of scarcity! Join us for this episode, "Using Scarcity Tactics in Sales: GenX vs. GenZ Psychology."
Links from this episode:
Dr. Mindy Weinstein on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49 ConnectAndSell
In this episode Chris and Corey are joined by the brilliant Dr. Mindy Weinstein, marketing expert and author of the bestselling book, "The Power of Scarcity." If you want to boost your sales game, this episode is a must-listen. Dr. Weinstein breaks down the secrets behind scarcity and its four types: time-related, demand-related, supply-related, and limited edition scarcity. Learn how to tap into the psychology of scarcity and motivate your customers to take action. Together, they explore the dynamics of scarcity in business and the impact it has on sales and marketing strategies. They also emphasize the importance of trust and credibility. Don't be that professional who abuses scarcity—build genuine relationships first! Join the Market Dominance Guys for a an insightful exploration of the power of scarcity in sales, in "Cracking the Code: Scarcity Strategies for Sales Success."
About Dr. Mindy Weinstein
Marketing is her passion. Over the last several years, she has trained 15,000+ people how to effectively approach marketing and sales in today's climate. Through webinars, workshops and conferences, her goal is to educate the business world one person at a time. As part of this goal, she has been researching, teaching and consulting about marketing psychology, with a special focus on the power of scarcity. In fact, that’s the name of her bestselling book, The Power of Scarcity: Leveraging Urgency and Demand to Influence Customer Decisions (McGraw Hill 2022).
Links from this episode:
Dr. Mindy Weinstein on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49 ConnectAndSell
Chris and Corey continue their conversation with Ben Sternsmith of Sybill AI . This episode covers how AI is revolutionizing the sales process, making it more precise and empowering for sales professionals.
Discover how AI analyzes tonality and body language, equipping salespeople with unparalleled accuracy in assessing deal progress. They discuss the importance of building trust with clients and how AI can support but never replace the human touch in establishing meaningful connections.
They also explore the resurgence of cold calling as a powerful strategy in the digital age and introduce Dealy. This innovative AI-driven solution enhances CRM systems by analyzing customer interactions and providing valuable insights.
Join us for this insightful episode that explores the synergy between sales and AI, offering practical tips and inspiring ideas for sales professionals.
Links from this episode:
Ben Sternsmith on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn Sybill AI Branch 49 ConnectAndSell
About Sybill AI
Sybill AI is an AI company that originated as a Stanford project three years ago. The founders, frustrated with the limitations of remote teaching, developed a behavioral AI engine over Zoom. This innovative tool records calls and analyzes body language to determine engagement levels. Leveraging the power of large language models like GPT-4, Sybill AI offers generative AI for salespeople. It automatically generates call summaries, writes AI-powered follow-up emails, and even appends CRM data.
The guys welcome Ben Sternsmith of Sybill AI delves into the benefits of AI in sales, such as freeing salespeople to be more engaged and focused during customer interactions. Ben shares his experience of being able to concentrate on customer needs without the burden of note-taking or manual follow-up tasks. As Corey, Chris, and Ben explore the possibilities opened up by AI in sales, they discuss the challenges faced by sales professionals and the potential for AI tools to streamline and enhance their work.
With tools like Sybill AI and ConnectAndSell, sales reps can offload repetitive tasks and focus on building genuine connections with customers. Join Corey, Chris, and Ben on this captivating episode as they unravel the fascinating world of AI in sales and its potential to reshape the industry in this episode, “Harnessing Generative AI: Revolutionizing Sales Strategies and Results”.
Links from this episode:
Ben Sternsmith on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn Sybill AI Branch 49 ConnectAndSell
About Sybill AI
Sybill AI is an AI company that originated as a Stanford project three years ago. The founders, frustrated with the limitations of remote teaching, developed a behavioral AI engine over Zoom. This innovative tool records calls and analyzes body language to determine engagement levels. Leveraging the power of large language models like GPT-4, Sybill AI offers generative AI for salespeople. It automatically generates call summaries, writes AI-powered follow-up emails, and even appends CRM data.
Chris Beall is on the road in Seattle, attending the annual Microsoft Build conference. Amidst thousands of software developers learning about the latest advancements, Chris and Susan discuss the impact of AI on sales and address common concerns about its effects on job security. Drawing an analogy of material science advancements to the evolution of building materials, Chris explains how new technology creates opportunities for salespeople rather than making them obsolete. He predicts an explosion of new products and businesses as companies leverage the power of AI to enhance their offerings. With an optimistic outlook, Chris emphasizes that salespeople should embrace the possibilities brought by material science advancements and look forward to a world of new products and increased sales opportunities. Join them as they explore the exciting potential of AI in sales on this episode, "Unleash the Sales Kraken: Fearless, Innovative, and AI-slaying!"
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall reviews how artificial intelligence and machine learning will impact the future of sales. Beall shares his thoughts on how decision support using AI can make it easier and faster to figure out what to do. He gives an example of a prospective customer who wanted to talk to CEOs of companies using the entrepreneurial operating system popularized in the book "Traction." He was able to use ChatGPT to find the names of CEOs running companies that were probably following EOS. In just a few minutes, he had a list of CEOs, company names, and phone numbers. Chris believes that AI and machine learning will help sales teams be more efficient at finding the folks they want to talk to. They will be able to understand their sales teams better, which will help sales run better. In addition to AI, he covers inbound and outbound marketing strategies and which one is more effective. Finally, he explores the power of negative conversations in driving pipeline and how they can be more effective than positive conversations. Join us for this episode, “Sales Success in the Age of AI and Emotional Intelligence.”
Here are 12 provocative questions answered in this episode:
- How do you think the rise of artificial intelligence and machine learning will impact the future of sales?
- What's your take on the debate between inbound and outbound marketing strategies? Which one do you think is more effective?
- Can you share a story about a time when you failed at something in your professional life? How did you bounce back from it?
- How do you stay motivated and focused when faced with challenges or setbacks?
- What's the biggest mistake you see salespeople make, and how can they avoid it?
- How do you think technology changes how sales teams work and collaborate?
- What's your opinion on the role of emotional intelligence in sales, and how can salespeople develop this skill?
- How do you measure the success of your sales team, and what metrics do you use?
- In your experience, what are the most effective strategies for building strong relationships with clients and customers?
- How do you ensure that your sales messaging resonates with your target audience?
- What advice would you give to someone who is just starting a career in sales?
- What are the biggest challenges facing sales leaders today, and how can they overcome them?
In this episode Chris Beall discusses the common mistakes made by CEOs when seeking funding and how venture capitalists (VCs) make their decisions. Chris explains that VCs are in the business of pattern matching, meaning they compare the characteristics of a company seeking funding to those of successful companies they have previously funded. However, this approach can lead to the exclusion of companies that do not fit the pattern. He uses his own company, ConnectAndSell, as an example, explaining that his company's reputation and the age of its founders did not match the pattern favored by VCs, but the company was still successful. He also notes that VCs often encourage companies to spend their funding on headcount, specifically sales development representatives (SDRs), who set meetings for account executives. Beall calls this a "comfort" for VCs, but emphasizes that it may not always be the most effective use of funding. Join Susan Finch as she takes the host’s chair with Chris as her guest for this episode, “Conversations Over Headcount: What VCs Should be Counting.”
In this episode, Chris and Corey discuss the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank and its potential impact on the startup ecosystem and the broader economy. Chris explains that the venture capital industry is important for occasionally making an important company, but most of what Silicon Valley funds is R&D for unnamed corporate investors. He thinks debt will become more popular in the future because it has advantages for both parties, and he expects debt to be democratized more. They guys also discuss how the innovation economy depends on innovations that diffuse through the economy through various means and how the VC industry operates as a salvage yard for VCs in advance of failure. Finally, Corey and Chris predict that debt will become more popular and democratized in the future as more debt players come in to help companies and the pure equity games become trickier to play. Join us for this episode, "The Salvage Yard: A Hidden Gem of Silicon Valley."
Chris and Corey discuss the dangers of correlation in the tech industry and the impact it can have on valuations. Chris explains how the venture capital industry is focused on headcount as a metric for success, leading to inefficient practices among funded companies. This correlation can create a house of cards effect, where the collapse of one company can trigger a chain reaction that affects the entire ecosystem. They also touch on the pre-chasm state of companies and the importance of finding visionary buyers who can provide the necessary funding without relying on rounds of financing. As a sales professional, it's important to understand the broader industry trends that can affect your company's success and plan accordingly. Chris and Corey's insights offer valuable perspectives on the challenges facing tech companies and how to navigate them. Listen to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "The Problem with Correlation in VC-Funded Companies."
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Branch 49
ConnectAndSell
In this episode Corey Frank and Chris Beall discuss the impact of recent market shifts on businesses and the advice they would give to CEOs and CROs to adapt to these changes. With tightening debt and equity markets, businesses must focus on efficiency and go-to-market strategies to maintain profitability. Chris emphasizes the importance of go-to-market efficiency and being disciplined in investing resources wisely. Their guest, Ryan Edwards, Managing Partner at Prospeq, shares his thoughts on the investment side, highlighting that businesses should prioritize investments that drive revenue growth, instead of focusing solely on product improvements. In the face of uncertainty, Chris advises companies to aim for profitability and avoid making hasty decisions.
They also cover key metrics that businesses should track to stay on top of their performance. Chris suggests focusing on meetings per rep hour, net meetings attended per hour, and the net show rate as essential indicators of a company's go-to-market efficiency. Ryan emphasizes the importance of understanding client acquisition cost and lifetime value, especially for businesses with mixed revenue sources.
As businesses navigate these uncertain times, focusing on efficiency, profitability, and key metrics will help them maintain a strong footing and continue to grow. Join us for this episode, "Growth, Profitability, and Pivoting in Economic Turmoil."
Links from this episode:
Ryan Edwards on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
Prospeq
Branch 49
ConnectAndSell
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys podcast, Chris, Corey and Helen Fanucci discuss the evolution of the internet, from its early days as a way for messages to move across networks to the democratization of global information through the browser and search engines. They also explore the capabilities of ChatGPT, including its ability to generate email responses and interact with customers using personalized prompts. They highlight the potential of ChatGPT to save time and improve the quality of communication for sales professionals. Join us for this idea-filled episode, "How ChatGPT Can Improve Sales Enablement."
Four ideas on how sales professionals can benefit from using ChatGPT for follow-up:
- Personalized Follow-Up: ChatGPT can help sales professionals create personalized follow-up messages for each customer based on their preferences, interests, and past interactions with the sales team. ChatGPT can analyze the customer's conversation history and provide personalized responses that feel like a human wrote them.
- Lead Nurturing: ChatGPT can help sales professionals nurture leads by sending automated follow-up messages to potential customers at regular intervals. These messages can be customized to meet the specific needs of each customer, making it easier to keep them engaged with the sales process.
- Schedule Meetings: ChatGPT can help sales professionals schedule meetings with potential customers by automating the process of finding a mutually convenient time to meet. This can save the sales team a lot of time and effort by eliminating the need to go back and forth with customers trying to find a suitable time.
- Provide Instant Customer Support: ChatGPT can be used to provide instant customer support to customers who have questions or concerns about a product or service. Sales professionals can use ChatGPT to respond to these inquiries in real-time, providing customers with the information they need to make a purchasing decision. This can help increase customer satisfaction and improve the chances of closing a sale.
The Evolution of the Internet and Digital Communications
1960s: The concept of hypertext is introduced by Ted Nelson.
1980: Tim Berners-Lee develops the idea of a "mesh" network of hyperlinked documents and begins working on the WorldWideWeb (WWW) project.
1990: The first web page is created by Tim Berners-Lee. It contains information about the WWW project and how to use a web browser.
1991: The first web browser, called WorldWideWeb, is developed by Tim Berners-Lee. It was a text-only browser and was only available on the NeXTSTEP operating system.
1993: The first graphical web browser, called Mosaic, is released by Marc Andreessen and Eric Bina. It was a huge success and helped to popularize the web.
1994: The first search engine, called WebCrawler, is launched by Brian Pinkerton. It was the first search engine to index entire web pages rather than just titles and headings.
1995: Netscape Navigator is released by Netscape Communications Corporation. It becomes the most popular web browser and sets the standard for web browsing features.
1996: The first version of Internet Explorer is released by Microsoft, marking the beginning of the "browser wars" between Microsoft and Netscape.
1998: Google is founded by Larry Page and Sergey Brin. Their search engine quickly becomes the most popular and sets a new standard for search technology.
2003: Skype is launched, becoming one of the first and most popular VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) services.
2004: Mozilla Firefox is released by the Mozilla Foundation as an open-source alternative to Internet Explorer.
2008: Google releases the first version of the Chrome browser, which quickly becomes popular due to its speed and simplicity.
2009: WhatsApp is launched, providing a new way for people to communicate via instant messaging and voice calls over the internet.
2010: Microsoft releases Internet Explorer 9, which is considered a major improvement over previous versions.
2013: Google's Chrome becomes the most popular web browser, surpassing Internet Explorer for the first time.
2021: The current versions of popular web browsers include Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox, Apple Safari, Microsoft Edge, and Opera. Popular search engines include Google, Bing, Yahoo, and DuckDuckGo. VOIP services like Skype, Zoom, and Teams have become critical tools for remote communication in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. The Worldwide Web continues to evolve and expand, with new technologies and innovations being introduced regularly.
2022: ChatGPT from OpenAI.com takes the world by storm and changes how we write and communicate forever.
Welcome to another episode of Market Dominance Guys! In this third installment of our Road Trip visit series, we join Helen Fanucci and the team at Branch 49 as they discuss trust-building, gratitude, and top-of-the-funnel strategies.
Helen Fanucci shares her experiences with cold calls while using ConnectAndSell, adjusting her approach to engage prospects effectively. Her customized calls-to-action cater to each prospect's unique needs, leading to successful completions even when the prospect isn't the right person or ready for a meeting.
The experts also explore the value of cold calls in generating website traffic, comparing it to targeted Google ads. The conversation emphasizes the power of trust in maintaining lasting relationships, highlighting that trust endures indefinitely, provided it's not undermined by sales pressure. Join them for this episode, "Boosting Website Traffic with Cold Calls."
Links from this episode:
Branch 49
Sean Snyder on LinkedInCorey Frank on LinkedInMicrosoftHelen Fanucci on LinkedInHelen's book, Love Your TeamConnectAndSellChris Beall on LinkedInChris and Corey's book, Market Dominance: A Conversation with ChatGPT
As our Market Dominance Guys continue this road trip book signing tour with Helen Fanucci, Chris emphasizes the significance of practicing sales conversations in order to become a high-performance salesperson, with the script being the key to unleashing creativity in sales. Helen tells the story of her experience cold-calling using ConnectAndSell, a script, and how it affected her Fitbit. Additionally, Chris talks about the energy transfer that takes place in a sales conversation, and how BDRs need to provide energy but also listen carefully to the emotional response of the prospect. Helen shares her experience of working with a coach and learning from the best in the world to improve her sales skills, and the importance of being objective about oneself to become a great salesperson. This episode provides valuable insights on how to engage customers effectively to build lasting relationships. As Chris says, "You are a performance athlete with your voice. That's what you are. That's what you have to work with." Join us for this episode, “What Do a Fitbit and Surfboard Have in Common with Cold Calling?”
About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft is the author of Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World.
Helen's book is available on Amazon:
LOVE YOUR TEAM A SURVIVAL GUIDE for Sales Managers in a Hybrid WorldHelen Fanucci on LinkedInCorey and Chris' book is also available on Amazon:
Market Dominance: A Conversation With ChatGPTCorey Frank on LinkedInChris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSellBranch49
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, author Helen Fanucci joins Chrisand Corey. Helen suggests that when thinking about the first job, you should consider the industry you want to work in, as it can set you up for future success. For instance, sales tech is a great industry for those passionate about sales and technology, while cybersecurity is growing rapidly due to the increasing sophistication of hackers.
The importance of building your network is another crucial aspect of a successful career, as it can provide exposure to others' work and broaden your horizons. Helen emphasizes the need to develop a point of view and post original content on LinkedIn to distinguish yourself.
Helen also stresses the need for continuous learning and growth in our role. By intentionally meeting people in other parts of the business and getting exposure to their work, one can learn and grow.
Join us for this episode, "Intentional Choices: Mapping Out Your Sales Career."
About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft is the author of Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World.
Links for this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Branch49
In this episode, Gerhard Gschwandtner compares ChatGPT to a painter's palette with an infinite amount of colors, and salespeople are the artists who must decide how many colors to use and when the painting is finished. The hosts discuss the role of technology in sales and how salespeople can use ChatGPT to harness its intelligence to make more informed decisions. Chris describes a practical example of how he used ChatGPT for list creation for a company called Partner Tap. He was able to ask it about the specific job titles used in senior roles in companies and generate a table of titles for each company. Gerhard suggests that salespeople can tap into their internal ChatGPT to discover great ideas and pursue meaningful work. Chris mentions how they are exploring the use of ChatGPT in developing a new data product and using it to summarize the best conversations that set a meeting with different types of executives. Key points from this portion of the episode include the power of ChatGPT in harnessing technology to make more informed decisions in sales, the importance of pursuing meaningful work, and the potential for ChatGPT to be used in various aspects of sales, from list creation to conversation summaries. Corey reminds us, "You have to be willing to put in that work, do your research and know that it's going to take time. It's not going to happen overnight. It's really about understanding who your customer is and what they care about."
Key points from this episode:
- ChatGPT can be used in various aspects of sales, such as list creation and conversation summaries.
- Salespeople can use ChatGPT to harness its intelligence and make more informed decisions.
- Pursuing meaningful work can lead to greater happiness and success in sales.
- The better the "why" behind what you are doing in sales, the easier the "how" will be.
- Prompt engineering is a method for developing ChatGPT responses that require careful consideration of the language and wording used in prompts.
Chris Beall and Corey Frank welcome Gerhard Gschwandtner, the CEO of Selling Power and an advocate for non-verbal sales communication. Gerhard emphasizes the importance of being aware of one's own energy, as sales is a transfer of energy. They talk about the challenge of losing cultural underpinnings when not being on-site with customers and how finding the right connections that can help you learn and grow is important in gathering energy.
Chris, Corey, and Gerhard's experiences and insights provide valuable lessons for salespeople and individuals looking to improve their energy and become their authentic selves. They emphasize the importance of being aware of one's energy, using technology as a natural extension of oneself, finding the right connections to learn and grow, taking action and engaging with the world to build self-discovery, and accepting mortality to improve energy and focus in this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "Sales energy: The Importance of being an omnichannel salesperson."
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Susan Finch discuss their experience using ChatGPT to write a book based on their podcast, and the benefits of using AI to create content. They delve into the limitless possibilities of machine learning, natural language processing, and computer vision, and how they are transforming various industries. Chris and Susan also share their insights on the process and the excitement of seeing the AI learn and improve. Chris and Susan talk about how ChatGPT can generate various versions of a prompt, and the different approaches they took to refine their requests for better results. They also reflect on the human-like interactions they had with ChatGPT, and the Eliza effect that makes people treat the AI as if it were a person. Ultimately, they highlight the efficiency and creativity that AI can bring to content creation, and the potential for using ChatGPT to write more books in the future. Tune in to hear their fascinating discussion on the intersection of AI and writing in this episode, "How ChatGPT is Writing a Book: The AI and Human Collaboration."
Welcome to the continuation of a conversation with Hitesh Shah, CTO and CPO of ConnectAndSell. This episode delves into the world of sales and coaching for sales managers. Hitesh shares his experience and insights on coaching by the numbers and how to effectively manage and coach a sales team.
Corey and Chris share their thoughts on how to analyze sales data and determine the strengths and weaknesses of individual sales reps. They stress the importance of getting granular with data and looking at it with a critical eye. By understanding the patterns and details of sales interactions, sales managers can take the necessary steps to help their reps improve and drive better results.
Chris also offers his advice for new sales managers on how to stay up-to-date with fast-moving sales trends and how to effectively manage a sales team in a fast-paced environment. He suggests starting the day by looking at sales data and focusing on the critical details of sales interactions.
So whether you're a seasoned sales manager or just starting out, join us for this exciting episode as Chris, Corey and Hitesh help you take your sales management, training, and sales skills to the next level in this episode, "Get Granular to Boost Your Sales Performance".
If you missed the first half to this interview, you can listen here:
The Power of Childlike Curiosity in the Digital World of Sales
Links from today's episode:
ConnectAndSell - https://connectandsell.com Branch49 - https://branch49.com
Hitesh Shah on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hiteshrshah/ Chris Beall on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-beall-7859a4/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreyfrank/
So, what's the biggest challenge in sales? Today, the guys have a special guest, Hitesh Shah, CTO and CPO of ConnectAndSell. As Hitesh puts it, it's the fact that we don't like to be sold to. That's why sales is about helping, not selling. And if you want to succeed in sales, you have to understand who your target audience is and what their business problems are. You have to start at the bottom and work your way up, building relevance and trust with each person you talk to. Hitesh says there are two things, one is always trying to understand what happened. And, when it goes against your instinct - what did you expect it to do? Be open to the possibility that you may have missed something. Corey says that this requires a level of humility that doesn’t exist in high quantities in sales, even though it should.
One of the things these three have learned over the years is that when something starts working when it shouldn't, it can be scary. But in the digital world, everything is deterministic. There are causes and effects, and there's no such thing as waiting or hoping that something fixes itself. As Hitesh puts it, you have to have a childlike curiosity and naivete, especially in the digital world where computers are deterministic. Join us for this episode of Market Dominance Guys, “The Power of Childlike Curiosity in the Digital World of Sales”
Links from today's episode:
ConnectAndSell - https://connectandsell.com Branch49 - https://branch49.com
Hitesh Shah on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hiteshrshah/ Chris Beall on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-beall-7859a4/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreyfrank/
In part two of this series, Barry Traile, Chris and Corey bring a touch of humor to the conversation on the topic of sales and how it relates to the corporate business world today. Barry emphasizes the importance of establishing and elevating relationships over time, stating that sales isn't about predicting anything but rather bringing people together. He compares the unpredictability of sales to the unpredictability of a baseball game, where even the best players are out 70% of the time. Chris Beall adds that the desire for predictability is a universal human desire, but sales is about doing things that have a reasonable shot of bringing people together so that problems can be solved that would otherwise be left unsolved. There is even a reference to fortune tellers, who are able to convince people to believe in the impossible. They guys agree that while the game of sales has not changed, the tools available to do it have improved, and the ability to access and share information has greatly increased, making sales performance level much higher today than in the past.
If you haven't listened to the first half of this series, we highly recommend you to check it out, "The Scarcest Commodity in Corporate Business Today.”
Links from this episode:
Sales Mastery - https://salesmastery.com/ConnectAndSell - https://connectandsell.com Branch49 - https://branch49.com Sales Education Foundation - https://salesfoundation.org/
Barry Trailer on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barrytrailer/ Chris Beall on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-beall-7859a4/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreyfrank/
Revealing the scarcest commodity in corporate business, especially in America today, first requires an understanding of how we got there. Today Barry Trailer, Co-founder of Sales Mastery, joins Chris and Corey. He reviews the four levels of process implementation: the percentage of revenue, the target revenue plan attained, the percentage of reps meeting or beating quota, the outcome of forecast deals, and rep turnover. These are real numbers. But higher levels of relationship and higher levels of process implementation lead to higher levels of performance. And the numbers are just the numbers They continued talking about the turnover. There's a huge contributory factor to the failure to implement significant change on the part of most sales organizations other than the change that a new leader brings in.
What is common is that the new lion, so to speak, the new CRO, the new VP of Sales, comes in and kills the cubs. They attempt to prove that whatever was being done before must not be done anymore. Because I've come in with my new way of doing things and territory must be marked, I was brought in to do something in a new way, and away we go. When the performance isn't there, the CRO or the CSO takes the bullet that the CEO doesn't want to take. But the only reason is that there's been this unholy alliance or this unspoken agreement that as long as we make the numbers, you'll stay out of my sandbox. Listen to this episode to see where your company falls in place in, “The Scarcest Commodity in Corporate Business Today.”
Links from this episode:
Sales Mastery - https://salesmastery.com/ConnectAndSell - https://connectandsell.com Branch49 - https://branch49.com Sales Education Foundation - https://salesfoundation.org/
Barry Trailer on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barrytrailer/ Chris Beall on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-beall-7859a4/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreyfrank/
In this follow-up to last week’s, “The Theory of Constraints and Ice Cream” Chris reminds us that all talent problems are wrapped up in lots of politics. And it turns out the key to all of this, whether you're like Corey and Chris and your company provides a discontinuous innovation. Something that naturally could bring change too fast or if you are the leader and something needs to change because it's the constraint and it's time to go after it no matter what. If you fail the finesse test, you fail all the tests. Because then the politics turn on you. And quite rightly, by the way.
Finesse is a very elegant way of describing the search process, reading the signals, reading the tea leaves, and understanding where the constraints are. Understanding that in this discontinuous innovation process, you're going to have of extraneous pipeline that's going to come in very rapidly at a flow rate that you’re not used to. And finesse is, as a way to almost like when you see a bullfighter, they have this big two 3000 pound beast that's bearing down at you and bull bullfighter. And he just finesses his way from one to the next and dances and it's a glorious thing to see in action where internally they may be sweating.
People underestimate the power of finesse and the reason that you need it. We are all machines when we sell, we're a machine that turns a potential opportunity into something that's taking a next step. That's all we do. So the more mathematically you are, that is, if you're listening to this and you're going, yeah, gold red theory of constraints I'm in, I'm in. Right? You probably need to spend more of your life thinking about and exercising the finesse components. Listen to this episode, “The Power of Finesse and the Bullfighter.”
If you missed the first part of this conversation, "The Theory of Constraints" you can catch up here.
We've heard the phrase, "Be careful what you wish for..." It's not unlike wanting to build pipeline quickly and how it relates to a kid in an ice cream store. What is the goal? Build as much - eat as much as possible to gain as much success and pleasure as possible. Think of the system of building pipeline like a child who isn't sufficiently mature enough to handle all that ice cream. Belly aches will ensue. So the issue with too much too fast is you can't find the bottleneck anymore. And if you can't find the bottleneck anymore, you can't manage.
In this episode, Corey asked Chris to visit the theory of constraints. Businesses are artificial, in the sense, that we say we're going to do something for others, and they're going to pay us money for it. And then the question is, what are the inputs to the business? And whenever you have a system with inputs and outputs, you always have exactly one constraint within that system. That's what the theory of constraints says.
The reason that people like Mark Cuban, Steve Jobs, and Elon Musks, and the like are such outstanding business leaders is they put their eye on the bottleneck regardless of the noise that's produced by the change that they are willing to induce in order to improve. Most of us can't do that. Listen to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "The Theory of Constraints and Ice Cream."
Scientific methods have a place in sales, whether it is to keep existing customers happy or to continue building the pipeline. David Dulany of Tenbound says, “You create a hypothesis of what your messaging is going to be, and then you run an experiment on it and report on the results of the methodology that you're using, do a little bit more research, change it up, make a new hypothesis, and run the same structure over and over again basically for the rest of your life.” Unless you are willing to reevaluate what is working and what is not continuously, it will all stop working, and static growth or loss of business is inevitable. Chris, Corey, and David have solutions for you. They suggest you look at the efficiency of the people, the processes, and the current technology you currently have in place. Many of these companies have a tech stack, and they don't optimize it and look at it from the perspective of setting it up correctly to really be able to get all the juice out of it. Evaluate the value of what's on hand versus coming up with some new silver bullet that will solve everything. Listen to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, “Science, Silver Bullets and Evaluating Variables.
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Here are the first two episodes of this interview:
EP 160: Prospecting, Inbound, or Pipeline Problems; Should You Hire an SDR?EP 161: Hiring Pipeline Builders Who Can Build TrustAbout David Dulany
He is highly-skilled and knowledgable in the SDR/BDR space. His training courses are personable, easy to understand, and most importantly- actionable. At a strategic level, he has the ability to effectively blueprint the entire Sales Development function. From there, recruit, hire, build, mentor, inspire and lead a team of Sales Development Representatives to exponentially grow new business revenue and new logo attainment for start-ups or more established companies.He considers himself a lifelong student of this craft.
About Tenbound
Tenbound is a Research and Advisory firm focused and dedicated to B2B SaaS GTM Sales Development Performance improvement. The Sales Tech industry has exploded over the past few years; however, expertise in the subject is still rare. Tenbound aims to uplevel the profession through cutting-edge research, high quality events, and highly practical online training programs for all levels of the Sales Development team.
CROs, VP of Sales or VP of SDRs need to be able to persuade like Atticus Finch, write and email like Tarantino, and perform like DiCaprio. You’re actually looking for people to have a decent conversation with somebody that is built on trust and authenticity. You can’t solve that if all you want to do is hire more SDRs. David Dulany continues his conversation with Corey and Chris. He says, “The number one recommendation that I would make if people were asking is do not hire five SDRs First, hire a really good operational person that can connect the dots and set the stage and set the foundation between all the technology and the processes and the playbook to get that in place and then start to layer on the people that can actually execute on that. “ If companies have a good sales operations person that has the bandwidth to be able to help the SDRs, it makes a huge difference in helping them quickly learn how to create that trust. There’s more to this success plan than this, but you’ll have to listen to get the details on this episode of Market Dominance Guys, “Hiring Pipeline Builders Who Can Build Trust.”
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Link to the first part of this interivew: Ep 160: Prospecting, Inbound, or Pipeline Problems; Should You Hire an SDR?
About David Dulany
He is highly-skilled and knowledgable in the SDR/BDR space. His training courses are personable, easy to understand, and most importantly- actionable. At a strategic level, he has the ability to effectively blueprint the entire Sales Development function. From there, recruit, hire, build, mentor, inspire and lead a team of Sales Development Representatives to exponentially grow new business revenue and new logo attainment for start-ups or more established companies.He considers himelf a lifelong student of this craft.
About Tenbound
Tenbound is a Research and Advisory firm focused and dedicated to B2B SaaS GTM Sales Development Performance improvement. The Sales Tech industry has exploded over the past few years; however, expertise in the subject is still rare. Tenbound aims to uplevel the profession through cutting-edge research, high quality events, and highly practical online training programs for all levels of the Sales Development team.
How are you tracking your pipeline’s success? If you are only looking at one quarter or two, you are missing the larger picture of the attribution. Most of the results are going to be 3, 4, 5, and 6 quarters later. Is it the SDRs, advertising, phone calls made, or conversations you’ve had? If you wait too long to look at where the pipeline is coming from and where it is weak, you may be behind by an additional three to six months at that point. Companies are cutting back on prospecting teams without fully appreciating the long-term effect on the pipeline. David Dulany, Founder and CEO at TenBound, joins Chris and Corey for the first in a three-part series on Market Dominance Guys. In this episode, you’ll hear why a vendor is like someone with one leg of a giraffe and the other of an octopus tentacle. How do you walk with those? Or is it like Wile E Coyote running into the tunnel the Roadrunner painted on the side of the road? Chris sums up this episode, “Failure to prospect today will turn future good times into bad times that are worse than today.” How will you avoid this position? Listen to “Prospecting, Inbound, or Pipeline Problems; Should You Hire an SDR?” to find out.
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About David Dulany
He is highly-skilled and knowledgable in the SDR/BDR space. His training courses are personable, easy to understand, and most importantly- actionable. At a strategic level, he has the ability to effectively blueprint the entire Sales Development function. From there, recruit, hire, build, mentor, inspire and lead a team of Sales Development Representatives to exponentially grow new business revenue and new logo attainment for start-ups or more established companies.He considers himelf a lifelong student of this craft.
About Tenbound
Tenbound is a Research and Advisory firm focused and dedicated to B2B SaaS GTM Sales Development Performance improvement. The Sales Tech industry has exploded over the past few years; however, expertise in the subject is still rare. Tenbound aims to uplevel the profession through cutting-edge research, high quality events, and highly practical online training programs for all levels of the Sales Development team.
A company’s leadership – the lead singer, picks up the pieces and fills in the holes in a performance. Their drummers keep the rhythm of the deal moving forward so everyone can stay in time. But what about the sale professional making the calls – the lyricist? The correct tone of a single syllable can make or break a conversation before it starts. Corey and Chris continue their conversation with Paula S. White of Side B Consulting. They compare the ways different cultures start a cold call. We have more in common with all of our varying cultures than you may think when we start the call admitting we are an interruption and that we have never met the prospect on the other end. Paula takes us through the skill of being an unexpected listener and where that is valuable in every business encounter. The good news is it can be learned, like a memorable piece of music or a favorite song that takes us back to a favorite memory. Join these sales musicians in this episode, “Join the Band – How Sales Professionals Are like Lyricists.”
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About Our GuestPaula S. White is the Leadership DJ of Side B Consulting in New Albany, Ohio. Side B Consulting helps leaders combine their business-minded skills with their relationship-based people skills to more effectively lead their teams.
Full Transcript here:
What helps make someone an effective leader? According to our guest, Paula White, the Leadership DJ of Side B Consulting, it’s all about employing a leader’s human side along with their business side when they connect with their team. Using music and musician metaphors, Paula helps leaders discover the aspects of their flip side — Side B — which define their humanity, and how they can combine their Side B aspects with their business side to become intentionally connected with their team members. Our hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, bring their own experiences as team leaders to this topic, discussing with Paula how an imbalance of power can often impede an honest exchange between a leader and his team members, and how the application of a leader’s Side B traits can diminish this. Curious to discover your own Side B? Get some insights from today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Your ‘Side B’ Is a Leadership Tool.”
About Our Guest Paula S. White is the Leadership DJ of Side B Consulting in New Albany, Ohio. Side B Consulting helps leaders combine their business-minded skills with their relationship-based people skills to more effectively lead their teams.
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When you’re nearing the end of the quarter, especially the fourth quarter, do you tend to panic and offer a discount in order to close any deals hanging fire? Oren Klaff, New York Times bestselling author of Pitch Anything and Flip The Script, discusses the downside of this neediness on today’s Market Dominance Guys podcast. Our two hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, explore with Oren what happens to the status you have so carefully built with your prospective customer if you blatantly display just how needy and desperate you are to close the deal. Does showing your soft underbelly increase your chance of closing the deal? Or does your neediness kill the deal altogether? Oren’s advice is to stick to the sales process — and HOLD, no matter what. Join these three sales analysts as they caution the sales reps of the world about the pitfalls of a needy mindset when a sales deadline is looming on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Hold Everything!”
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More Marketet Dominance Guys episodes with Oren Klaff here:
https://marketdominanceguys.com/category/guest-oren-klaff
About Our Guest
Oren Klaff is one of the world's leading experts on sales, raising capital, and negotiation. He is the New York Times bestselling author of two sales-related books, Flip The Script and Pitch Anything: An Innovative Method for Presenting, Persuading, and Winning the Deal. Employing his securities markets experience in capital-raising advisory leadership, Oren is Managing Director of Capital Markets at the investment bank Intersection Capital, where he manages its capital-raising platform. Since 2005, Oren has grown the firm to approximately $2 billion in aggregate trade volume across a diversified portfolio of companies and transactions.
“It costs five times more to get a new client than to keep one you already have.” Today, Rick Elmore, Founder and CEO of Simply Noted, elaborates on his commitment to customer retention and to his company’s practice of over-delivery with our Market Dominance Guys’ host, Chris Beall. Rick believes that building relationships with clients is vital to any company’s success, so he begins by onboarding each new customer himself, answering all the frequently asked questions, and personally checking back to make sure the customer’s initial experience with Simply Noted’s products and services is a happy one. “When you’re truly on your client’s side, they’ll hear it in your voice,” Rick explains. Listen to this podcast, and you too will hear the commitment to customer retention in Rick’s voice in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Focus on Over-Delivery.”
About Our Guest
Rick Elmore is founder and CEO of Simply Noted in Tempe, Arizona, a company that utilizes software and robotic technology to create personalized handwritten notes for its 300,000 monthly users.
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Who would have guessed that hand writing a note to 500 prospects would be a highly successful marketing campaign? Our guest, Rick Elmore, did! Founder and CEO of Simply Noted, Rick joins our host, Chris Beall, today to discuss his career path from college, to professional NFL football player, to a job in medical device sales and marketing, to a startup company now in its fourth year. It was the success of his handwritten-notes campaign that encouraged Rick to found his own business, offering this same service — now automated — to help individuals and companies utilize the personal touch of what looks like a handwritten note to reach out to their customers. Rick and Chris talk about the open rate of these notes versus the open rate of cold — or even warm — emails. You’ll want to hear it with your own ears on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Duly and Simply Noted.”
About Our Guest
Rick Elmore is the founder and CEO of Simply Noted in Tempe, Arizona. Simply Noted is a company that utilizes software and robotic technology to create personalized handwritten notes for its 300,000 monthly users.
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Full episode transcript below:
Chris Beall (01:20):
Okay everybody, this is Chris Beall. This is yet another episode of Market Dominance Guys. You'll note that at the moment, I am not here with Corey Frank, and those of you who are used to Market Dominance Guys at this point, know what we talk about. We talk about the practical world of dominating markets using the human voice, but today we have with us Rick Elmore, Founder and CEO of Simply Noted, and it's actually analogous, I believe. I'm going to have Rick talk about it, but we're into the human voice. We believe you have conversations, you create trust, and you can pave markets with trust and harvest that trust at your leisure while your competitors try to get in where they can't go anymore because the market trusts you. Rick's actually got a very similar business. Rick, thank you so much for jumping on Market Dominance Guys today. I am really, really excited to hear what you have to say.
Rick Elmore (02:14):
Thanks so much, Chris, for having me here. This is great.
Chris Beall (02:16):
Cool. We run a pretty informal show here, so here's the informal show part. I know you have a very, very interesting background. We both went to school at the same place. You for real, and me, did it for three years and then went off and became a professional blackjack player for a while. Your background is unusual, I think for anybody, much less in business. It's something people want to hear about, but then, I also am dying of curiosity, as a guy who bought probably the second or third HP 7470A sweet lips pen plotter in the world, back in 1981 or two, I believe. I am fascinated with the use you have found for using a pen plotter to create artifacts efficiently that generate trust and more, so tell me the story.
Rick Elmore (03:07):
Yeah, well thanks for the intro. I appreciate it. My background's actually in athletics. I went to the University of Arizona and played football for Mike Stoops back in the early 2000s. Lucky enough to have a good career, went to the NFL and played three years in the NFL, had the typical journeymen struggle to survive. Just super competitive there, but was fortunate enough to stay and thrive and play for three years, but then when I got done, like most competitive athletes, they're looking for that competitive environment still, so reached out to some people who made that transition. Got into medical device sales, was rookie of the year my first year. Then I was top 1% or number one rep for the next five years. And then, just felt like there was something more. Saw that chip in my shoulder. I wanted to do something big.
(03:54):
So in 2017, went back to Eller, that's University of Arizona's Business School, got my MBA, and I was in a marketing class and a marketing professor was going over just all the success rates in marketing. Everything was super nominal or marginal, super low from cold calling, knocking doors, print mail, email. Everything was either single digits or low double digits, and being in sales myself at the time, I was trying to figure out what the competitive edge is and waiting for him to kind of drop the truth bomb and hallelujah moment, but at the end of the lecture, he said half jokingly, "Hey guys, you know what still works nowadays, even more now than ever, is a nice handwritten note. It has a 99% open rate," and I was just like, that is a no brainer. Why aren't we doing that now? It's obvious, because nobody has the time, but I was like, why isn't there a business out there doing this?
(04:46):
I got to researching. There was a company at the time named Bond, but they were focusing on the worst segment. They were funded with a million dollars and they were focusing on the wedding industry. I was just like, you're dealing with Bridezillas. Why would you focus only on weddings? I've been married, tons of people have been married. Everything changes all the time, last second, delayed. This needs to be a business tool. Again, my background's in sales and marketing. It's not in software. It's not in robotics. We actually tried using a plotter at first. Nice little AxiDraw plotter, holds a pen, does what you want it to do. Our technology's much more advanced than that, but we worked with the mail house here locally, talked to them just about what we can do, our ideas, how can we get it done.
(05:28):
We sourced product from all over the world, south America, China. Worked with some Autopen companies, but over the last four and a half years, we've grown our platform to over 300,000 users a month. Going to make the Inc. 5,000 this year. We've developed our own technology, our own robotic technology from the ground up. We're going to have six patents on it. We're really excited about it. I'm really proud of it as well because we've done this with no funding, no investors. The product has always paid for the company, been cash flow positive since month one, leveraged my sales and marketing background. And then, I've really launched a pretty cool little business here in the last four years.
Chris Beall (06:05):
Well, it sounds like it might not be so little. 300,000 monthly users is actually a pretty big number. When you say monthly user, what is a monthly user?
Rick Elmore (06:12):
Just somebody who comes to our site and uses our site for whatever they needed to do. We've invested a lot in SEO over the last 18 months and we just drive a lot of organic traffic. Our conversion rate is anywhere from a half a percent to one and a half percent. It really just depends on the month and where the traffic is coming from, but we're driving a lot of interest. People who are searching for products that we are selling, they're coming to our page. We're not closing every one of them. They're not all making purchases, but they're coming to our platform, signing up, requesting samples, sending one card. They're just actively engaging with our website every month.
Chris Beall (06:46):
Got it, got it. Well, I've been to the site and it's a thousand times better than ours, so I admire it.
Rick Elmore (06:51):
I appreciate it. Actually, the bane of my existence is building websites. It's just so frustrating. Little things get tweaked all the time that cause problems.
Chris Beall (07:00):
It doesn't take much. Well, you know what we say about networking, which is bad enough. It's two bits away from not working. I think there's a corollary over there on websites.
Rick Elmore (07:09):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (07:09):
I don't have a good little poem for it or something, but we need an aphorism for website development and it's like Murphy's Law on steroids.
Rick Elmore (07:17):
Oh my gosh. Anything in software, Murphy's Law for sure. What can go wrong will definitely go wrong.
Chris Beall (07:24):
Well, software is funny in that sense. It's fundamentally brittle and I've been building it since 1968, so to give you a sense of how the first time I ever put my fingers on a keyboard and wrote a line of code was in '68.
Rick Elmore (07:37):
Wow. That's cool.
Chris Beall (07:38):
That goes back a little ways. Some people probably think-
Rick Elmore (07:41):
That's fine. I'm fine.
Chris Beall (07:42):
You aren't dead yet?
Rick Elmore (07:44):
I'm actually going through a Harvard CS50s class right now, a little computer science introductory course and a Python course, just so I can get really well versed in this type of stuff, just so I can communicate and work with my developers better. There's just so many opportunities within software and what you can get it to do in automation and APIs and machine learning, and all this stuff applies to our business, which fascinates me even more.
Chris Beall (08:08):
Well, it's funny. You're doing the right thing. In my opinion, most people who are founder CEOs don't bother to learn what's under the covers and it's what's really-
Rick Elmore (08:08):
Ignorance costs a lot of money.
Chris Beall (08:19):
Well, what's funny about it is, you nailed it. The communication with developers is communication with anybody, which is that once you have a common language, now you're down to how many iterations are you going to have to do in order to get to a finished product? Until you get to a common language, it doesn't matter how many iterations you do, you never get to a finished product. Most founder CEOs, I believe, end up in what I call the world of the flying car. That is, they don't know how the stuff is made, so they keep asking for flying cars and then after they get told over and over and over, "Sorry boss, you can't have a flying car." Then they stop asking for anything and the engineers take over and then you get an engineering run company, which is-
Rick Elmore (09:00):
That's a good thing, that's not the case for us because I literally understand... I've done everything with this company from building our websites, being engaged with the software team, the handwriting engine team, the robotics team, the sales and marketing, building out all of our case studies, all of our marketing materials, working... I guess that it is a bad thing if you don't understand the depths of your business for sure.
Chris Beall (09:21):
When folks talk about software eating the world, they don't actually consider the possibility that the senior executives who are running things are further divorced from how things run than they've ever been in history, and it's a problem because I don't know, you can give orders, you can tell people what to do, but if you don't know what underlies it, you're just [inaudible 00:09:41]. That's all there is to it. You just got to fucking do it. By the way, I'm a huge Python fan. I taught myself Python on a Saturday morning in 2006, I believe it was. Yeah, 2006, when I just got off at my own developers at a company that I joined in Silicon Valley because I wanted a visualization of this graph network thing that I thought of, and none of them would write the damn thing. So I said, "Ah man, I don't write much code anymore, but I'm going to do this," and I went and found a package to help that was done in Python and I thought, I'm going to hate Python because it likes white spaces and it's white space sensitive, which I used to teach programming languages to people, and here I am taking something I hate, which is why [inaudible 00:10:26], but why does it care about white space? I fell in love and about 10 minutes. I think it's one of the best languages ever.
Rick Elmore (10:31):
No, we can have a whole podcast talking about just the challenges of working with developers and why it's important to understand this and Python so far... I'm taking a course through Michigan right now in Python, so I'm only three weeks in, but I'm excited. I'm like the worst person to compete with because when there's a challenge, I just run through walls until I figure it out, so I feel bad for my competitors because there's no give up in me. If I need to know something, I'm going to figure out a way to understand it, even if it's at the expense of my time.
Chris Beall (10:57):
Well, I don't care about your competitors. I want to be crushed by you.
Rick Elmore (11:01):
I appreciate that.
Chris Beall (11:03):
That's what this whole podcast is about is dominating markets. Our [inaudible 00:11:06] is really simple, which is either you dominate or you're in peril. That's it. And then, you trump the markets you dominate and the more markets you dominate by count, the less peril you're in. It's just because after that, it's portfolio theory. It's like each one, if I have five markets, I dominate, all five have got to go away before I lose the ability to adapt the simplest way, which is to reduce overhead to match gross profit flow, which is the key to everything in businesses. You got to make your overhead just barely below, or well below, your gross profit flow and then grow. That's kind of it. There's not much more to it.
(11:44):
If they have all those business courses, it's like, guys, you get money from folks. There's your cost of goods, there's your gross profit, it flows into business. You have to reduce your overhead to being below that. Your final unit of overhead is your own salary. Figure that out. It's not that hard. Figure it out. It sounds like you've done that. Month one, month two, month three, there you were putting this thing together. You say, "Let's go." What did you do in month one in order to become cash flow positive? That's hard. That means you have to collect money from human beings for something they didn't pay for before, and human beings hate to buy stuff they didn't pay for before. They like doing today what they did yesterday.
Rick Elmore (12:27):
My background's in sales and marketing. I'm extremely competitive, extremely driven, but we started researching this in 2017 when I was going to school, and in 2018, we really started messing around with product, different machines, Autopens, the axidraw plotters, and getting samples. I was talking to my current clients, current business executives that I respected. My wife works in fundraising development, so she works with a lot of businesses, so we're really well connected here in the Phoenix market with people who run their own businesses, but prior to ever getting started, I probably had over 50 conversations with people that I respected, friends, family and business leaders, and when we finally got kicked off, I was just really excited about the product and people can see how excited I was about the product. I believed it down to my core, and I believe if your clients can see that in you, they get excited about it with you.
(13:16):
And then I was just obsessed with making sure those first clients that we had were successful. Even if it was at our expense, I wanted to make sure that they had a good experience because those first few clients that you have can make and break your business. You got to make sure they're fans about your business. They're lighthouse customers. They'll refer their friends. They'll keep buying from you if they know that you have their best interest in mind. So those first few months, looking back now compared to what we have now, it was a crappier product, but people just believed in it, and I talked to them about the problem that we were solving, connecting them with their clients in a personal way, in an automated way, in a more efficient way because if you think about it, everybody now is competing digitally for everybody's attention. It's all social, it's all SMS or MMS or LinkedIn or Slack or Twitter.
(14:05):
Nobody's competing in the mailbox, and with that high of an open rate and with how rare it is to receive a handwritten note and how expensive it is to require a new client versus just keeping a current client happy, it was actually a pretty easy sell to somebody who would listen, but now we have a much more complete platform. We have tools that automate it. We have better robots, we have higher capacity, we run our own printing press in house. That means faster, same day order deliveries. We have capital equipment that allows us to push out 10, 15,000 notes a day. We're just a lot more mature, but early on it's getting peoples excited about your journey, your product, your passion, your vision, get them to buy into you because they're not going to buy into a product they know nothing about. You really got to hard sell them on why they need to do it.
Chris Beall (14:52):
Yeah, you do. What was the point, before you actually launched somewhere in there, you went from, hm, interesting to, I'm going to go do this.
Chris Beall (15:48):
My experience is, that's what I call a mousetrap. It snaps. You don't grade into it and go, Oh, I think I'll do it. Maybe it's like, at some point you go, okay, I'm doing this. What drove you to that point? What was that like?
Rick Elmore (16:00):
I call it the entrepreneurial seizure. When you had that aha moment where you're literally, your whole body gets rushed with hormones where you just feel so good at, you had that moment, but when we were still testing this out in 2018, we were using plotters back in the day, and it took me forever. It took me weeks, I think it was four or five weeks to write 500 handwritten notes, but I was in medical sales at the time. I had a large territory across Arizona and Nevada. Again, I was in my class, my professor said a 99% open rate, and I was like, man, if I can get in front of my client 99% of the time, that is going to make me more successful. I wrote out 500 handwritten notes, basically pitching a product to doctors who never bought anything from me and really was really clear and concise who I was, how I can help them, can I buy them lunch and tell them more about it?
(16:48):
From those 500, I had over 30 people respond, which to me was new. I was just like, holy crap. People are calling me about a product and are about wanting to learn more. I always had to knock on doors and get people to sit down. And then from those 30 people, I sold $280,000 in equipment and it was $20,000 in commission from literally, from 500 handwritten notes. Literally, for that four or five, six weeks, my quota of monthly was $39,000, so when they saw $280,000 come across in six weeks, my whole company went crazy. My VP of sales were like, "Rick, what are you doing? It's working. We got to get everybody doing this," and I shared with them what I was doing, and really from that moment on, my business went on autopilot until January 2019 where I jumped in two feet with this.
(17:35):
But I saw it work firsthand and it was an idea that was kind of incubated during an MBA where we put a lot of work into just finding stuff that make it work, a lot of tinkering, and then weeks of getting this product together, and then I saw results and I was like, man, if we're seeing results now, let's solve a problem, build a platform, build the best technology, and we're going to have a really good company down the line that we can sell. That's really been my vision for this company, is to solve a problem, make it easy to use, build a robot, which we just did, and then scale it and sell it. We're really excited. We're only four years into this, but the next four years are going to be amazing.
Chris Beall (18:11):
Is it fun to watch the robots do their thing?
Rick Elmore (18:13):
I am obsessed with it. I was on a different call earlier today. I'm in here sometimes 11 o'clock at night, and I'm just still amazed seeing these little pen wielding robots. We build our own pens. There's a lot of technology in this company. We build our own pen inserts, we design the pen insert. It has 300% more ink so it writes longer. Also, you can control the quality of the ink. This is how geeky we got into this.
Chris Beall (18:13):
Love it.
Rick Elmore (18:38):
We've really thought of everything. The viscosity, viscosity's like how wet it is and how much it'll smear, so we have full control of it.
Chris Beall (18:47):
Remember, I have a physics degree from the University of Arizona.
Rick Elmore (18:51):
We've gone everywhere from the pen to the robots to the software, to the handwriting engine, to the website. Everything's been built from the ground up, which I'm extremely proud of.
Chris Beall (19:00):
That's so cool. Do you show videos of the robots doing their thing?
Rick Elmore (19:03):
Yeah, there's tons of them on my LinkedIn. I have them pinned up on the top. If you go to our LinkedIn, you'll see them. The website that we have now is actually being rebuilt. It's a two year old website. We're actually rebuilding the web app and then just the front facing design. We'll have a lot more of our technology highlighted on our website soon.
Chris Beall (19:21):
How personalized is the handwriting to me? I have a use case in mind right now. My team talks to 85,000 VPs of sales a year. I want them to follow up on every single one of those conversations with something-
Rick Elmore (19:34):
Automated.
Chris Beall (19:35):
Because once you talk to somebody, you may as well do something. We can actually get people even to open email, which we don't like very much, but when you talk to somebody, you send them an email, 10 minutes later, five minutes later, three minutes later, it's an email from somebody you just talked with, so we have the ability to scale the conversation side, but our follow up is, in my opinion, relatively weak. It's email and then we have a follow up conversation mechanism for people we want to talk to more than once, blah, blah. All that's built out. We put like, $55 million into this thing over time, so it does a lot of tricks, but it doesn't do your trick, so if I want to do your trick, how do I do it so that it feels like it's me writing that note, so I'm comfortable with it having come from me?
Rick Elmore (20:21):
Everything we do is custom to you guys. From your campaign, we'll completely set up custom, but the magic is automating it. Depending on what software you use, what CRM you use, we actually think our automation's a perfect follow up sequence. Say you had a call today and you book it and you want to set up an automation so once that trigger happens within your CRM, you would be notified same day either through an API integration or a Zapier integration, and we ship most orders same day, but it takes three to five days for them to be delivered. We actually think from that call to that landing in their mailbox within a week, five, six days, is actually a perfect follow up sequence for sales. Again, my background's in sales, so I'm always thinking about ways to engage prospects to get them on board. Even though we try to sell this as a tool for appreciation and thank you because again, cost of acquisition is five times more than just keeping your current clients happy. We just automate it through a Zapier integration. Super simple to set up. Just create an account on our website, we give you an API token, you log into the Zapier app, set up the automation, you never think about it again. It's pretty awesome.
Chris Beall (21:26):
Cool. We use Salesforce, so we know what's going on and then we pull it out of there. I'm sure you have that pre-wired, right?
Rick Elmore (21:31):
Yeah, Salesforce is one of the most flexible integrations we have.
Chris Beall (21:35):
Absolutely. Well, that's really interesting. How about on the handwriting side? It's me. How much is it me or is it a choice? It's like choosing a voice narrator for an audio book.
Rick Elmore (21:46):
This is a geeking out again, but the reason we had to build our own handwriting machines is these Axidraws or Autopens, they just have patterns when they write. It's impossible. They don't have super strong handwriting engines. They were built in the 80s and 90s, but can use your handwriting if you want. We can give you a handwriting conversion form, but what's powerful about ours is, not only do we have the ability to build you an unlimited sized handwriting style, so if you want to give us 100 As, 100 Bs, 100 Cs, we can create a very custom handwriting style to you, but we go well beyond that. We go into ligature style, so how your T connects to an H, what two T's look like together. What's an E at the end of a word versus an E at the beginning of a word look like.
(22:28):
It takes about five days for one of our graphic designers to convert your handwriting style and create your handwriting style, but there's a lot that goes into it, but everything about your campaign is completely custom, especially on our enterprise level accounts, stationary design, custom inserts, shift cards, business cards, bags of seeds, lumpy mill. You get really creative of what goes in an envelope, but we set up your custom campaigns. Really, when people come to us, they tell us about the project they have in mind and we show them the path of least resistance to get it done.
Chris Beall (22:58):
Got it. Well, it's very interesting. Our customers pay, they'll say an extraordinary amount of money to talk to people and follow up is everything, as you and I both know. I'm new to sales. I've only been at it for maybe 60 years, but as far as I can tell, I've learned very little and one of the main [inaudible 00:23:16] I've learned is follow-up is everything.
Rick Elmore (22:58):
Oh it is.
Chris Beall (23:18):
If you don't follow up, nothing ever happens in this world, and there's another thing which is courses for courses. We're calling people on the phone, not that you use a phone when you use ConnectAndSell. You push a button, you talk to somebody on your list, but to them it's a phone call. Then the question is, well, did you get everybody? You can get, roughly speaking, initially, you can get about 35% of the market on the phone right away. They're phone answering people, and it's not all about their mobile. It's actually all about what they actually answer on, and we do 60 million dials a year, so we know what everybody answers on, so we've got all of that information, but on the other side, what about the people, not just following up with the ones you talk to, but what about the people you can't reach? What about that note? That's still 60% of the market, roughly. You're saying to my customers right, and I have a fair amount of them that pay attention to this podcast, that if they want to reach the other 60%, that I don't know what the open rate will be. At a 99% open rate, is that still the case or whatever it happens to be?
Rick Elmore (24:27):
Yeah, there's tons of studies published online. We actually verified this. We took six different types of envelopes. One of them was handwritten, the other ones were print, different colors, different sizes. What we did is, we put a $10 check inside and told them what we're doing. "Hey, just scan this QR code. We're testing an open rate case study, but here's a $10 check," so we confirmed it by checks being cashed and then QR codes being scanned, and over 99%. We verified it, but there's tons of case studies out there as well showing the open rate is 99% as well.
Most sales reps think discovery isn’t sexy: Closing the deal is. But “Deals are won or lost in discovery,” cautions Sales Gravy CEO Jeb Blount, today’s podcast guest. This successful author of 15 sales-related books advises that “80% of your time in the sales process should be in discovery,” especially during a recession, when the discovery call becomes even more important. In this second of two interviews with Jeb, our Market Dominance Guys’ hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, share sales-success nuggets taken from Jeb’s most recent book, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times. You’ll want to listen closely as these three like-minded sales gurus explain their own discovery-call practices for establishing trust and how they get prospects to open up to them. All of this and so much more in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Discover the Power of Discovery.”
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Listen to the first half of this interview here:
Ep153: How to Dominate Your Market in a Crisis with Jeb Blount
About Our Guest
Jeb Blount is CEO at Sales Gravy, Inc., which is a global leader in sales acceleration and customer experience enablement solutions. He is the author of 15 sales-related books, including his most recent release, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times. Jeb is also the host of the Sales Gravy Podcast, the world’s most downloaded sales podcast.
What changes should you make when you’re selling in an economic-downturn period? Today’s podcast guest, Jeb Blount, is CEO of Sales Gravy and a successful author and podcaster. With 15 books to his name, including his latest, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times, it’s obvious that Jeb knows what he’s talking about when discussing sales techniques during these troubled times. His suggestion? You’ve got to pay close attention to patterns, as well as the signals you’re getting from prospects and customers. In this first of two interviews with our Market Dominance Guys’ hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, Jeb shares his advice about selling a price increase to customers, and about honing and re-honing your message as fears about the current economy’s impact are revealed in your prospects’ objections. Jeb’s also a firm believer in selling alongside his sales team and listening to his reps’ calls to provide just-in-time coaching. Get ready to take notes as this master of selling practices lets you in on what works and what doesn’t in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “How to Dominate Your Market in a Crisis.”
About Our Guest
Jeb Blount is CEO at Sales Gravy, Inc., which is a global leader in sales acceleration and customer experience enablement solutions. He is the author of 15 sales-related books, including his most recent release, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times. Jeb is also the host of the Sales Gravy Podcast, the world’s most downloaded sales podcast.
Full episode transcript below:
Announcer (00:05):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high-stakes speed bumps and off-ramps of driving to the top of your market, with our host Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell, and Corey Frank from Branch 49.
(00:21):
What changes should you make when you're selling in an economic downturn period? Today's podcast guest, Jeb Blount, is CEO of Sales Gravy, and a successful author and podcaster with 15 books to his name, including his latest, Selling in a Crisis: 55 Ways to Stay Motivated and Increase Sales in Volatile Times. (https://www.amazon.com/Selling-Crisis-Motivated-Increase-Volatile/dp/1394162359) (author on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Jeb-Blount/e/B003AR3W0A/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1 )
(00:41):
It's obvious that Jeb knows what he's talking about when he's discussing sales techniques during these troubled times. His suggestion? You've got to pay close attention to patterns, as well as the signals you're getting from prospects and customers.
(00:55):
In this first of two interviews with our Market Dominance Guys hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, Jeb shares his advice about selling a price increase to customers. And about honing and re-honing your message as fears about the current economy's impact are revealed in your prospect's objections.
(01:12):
Jeb's also a firm believer in selling alongside his sales team and listening to his reps' calls to provide just-in-time coaching. Get ready to take notes, as this master of selling practices lets you in on what works and what doesn't in today's Market Dominance Guys episode, How to Dominate Your Market in a Crisis.
Corey Frank (01:38):
Great. Good afternoon, good morning, good evening everybody. This is Corey Frank on behalf of Chris Beall and the Market Dominance Guys. We are once again with you for another exciting episode of what it takes to succeed in your market. And not just succeed, but to dominate your market.
(01:55):
And as always with me in the virtual studio is the sage of sales, the prophet of profit, the Stephen Hawking of hawking, Chris Beall. So Chris, good to see you once again. So I don't know if he owed you money in a poker game or what, but we were able to wrangle Jeb Blount, CEO of Sales Gravy, founder, author of 72 sales books... No, 13 sales books. Best selling-
Jeb Blount (02:22):
13? 15. 15.
Corey Frank (02:22):
- 15.
Jeb Blount (02:24):
I worked hard to get that number.
Corey Frank (02:26):
I'm misinformed.
Chris Beall (02:26):
[inaudible 00:02:29]
Corey Frank (02:28):
I'm misinformed. Yes, I will tell our producer that the data that I have is old, including the new one. So welcome, Jeb. Chris, how did we were able to lasso the esteemed Jeb Blount and his Sales Gravy team to our little podcast?
Chris Beall (02:45):
Well, so Jeb, it's so exciting to have you here. I haven't seen you for a couple of weeks. And it's like, I miss you, man.
(02:56):
So I was sitting down by the fire with Helen over here, we're down here in the desert, and I had been fortunate enough to go online at Amazon and buy a copy... Oops, a copy of Selling in a Crisis. And I love the title.
(03:09):
I was reading it, and it's a very easy read. It's 55 chunks that you can do something with each individual one, which I really like. My only complaint about it is, I prefer the number 108, as you know Corey. But Jeb got a little tired after 55, and figured that's enough and cut it off.
(03:27):
So I went out to review Selling in a Crisis, and just say how fabulous I thought it was, and Amazon wouldn't let me review it. So I sent Jeb a text. And it was fairly late at night, Jeb, right? It was like, I don't know, 11:00 something your time or whatever.
Jeb Blount (03:42):
Yeah, I was in bed.
Chris Beall (03:43):
You were in bed. [inaudible 00:03:45]
Corey Frank (03:44):
He's working on the 16th book, that's what he's doing. Number 16.
Chris Beall (03:48):
And he gives me this answer immediately, and basically says, "Well, there's kind of an issue with Amazon." And he explained it, and I didn't understand it. But I realized I just have to settle down and try again every day until I can finally review it.
(04:00):
But he said something interesting to me too, which is that, "I'm glad you liked the book. I wasn't 100% sure if people were going to like it." I think that's what you said, Jeb. Something like that, right?
Jeb Blount (04:09):
Yeah. Yes.
Corey Frank (04:12):
Well, I know it's tough enough, Jeb, and we can probably start with this as we turn the attention over to you, and as we have pen in hand as you spew all this wonderful wisdom for these 15 books, and all the wonderful seminars. Including the number one sales podcast in the world, I believe right now, right?
Jeb Blount (04:28):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (04:28):
With the Sales Gravy? But selling is tough enough. Now you're going to tell us, I got to learn a whole bunch of new things to sell in a crisis? So maybe we can talk about what was kind of the impetus and the rationale.
(04:40):
Because you have the pulse, you and your team have a pulse on what's happening in the sales world, the outreach world, et cetera. What were some of the little reverberation, seismic things that are happening beneath the surface saying, "Okay, we've got to gird our loins, and we've got to adjust for this Winter is Coming type of moment."
Jeb Blount (05:01):
Well, all you got to do is be a good observer of the world. I read the Wall Street Journal every single day, and you start seeing patterns. So if you read every day, and you look at legitimate business news sources every day, you begin to see the patterns stack up.
(05:14):
It's no different than when, it was right before Christmas, and I was seeing all of these clients coming in asking us to teach them how to go out and get price increases, that I was like, "This is tipping. We know that the inflation is there, but to get this many people coming in..." And I wrote Selling the Price Increase.
(05:32):
And then, as soon as that book was coming out, you began to see that you've got some recessionary issues that are coming into play. Maybe not in every single economy. And by the way, not even in every single state in the United States. It's just a pattern that you see emerging.
(05:46):
And when you start seeing a pattern emerging, the question is, are you going to be behind the curve or ahead of the curve? So by paying attention to what's happening, you start thinking, "Well, there's something there."
(05:57):
This wasn't a aha moment, I need to do this book. It was much more of a, I'm seeing things happening. I had just finished Selling the Price Increase, which was an intense book. It's a detailed textbook on how to go get price increases. Really, really, really detailed. Probably one of the most detailed, wonky books I've ever written.
(06:20):
I'm not thinking I want to write another book. I'm thinking I want to go sleep for about a year. Because I pulled that book off in about 60 days, and it's the longest book I've written in terms of pages.
(06:31):
So I'm sitting down, this third week in June in New York City. I was up there doing a gig, and met with my publisher, Wiley. And we're just having a conversation batting around ideas, and they're like, "What have you been thinking about?"
(06:43):
I said, "Well, I've got this content I've been working on for a while, and I don't know if this is the right time, but it's called Selling in a Crisis. And as soon as I said it, the antennas went up, and they're like, "Oh, that. How soon?"
(07:00):
I had the summer blocked to write the follow-up to Fanatical Prospecting, called the Fanatical Prospecting Playbook, which is out on Amazon, but there isn't a book yet. And they said, "Send me this stuff." So I left there, send them my ideas, and had a contract the next day, and said, "This is what we're going to do."
(07:18):
So that was really the impetus. And I had the time set aside, so I was able to get the book done. The way the book turned out though was kind of weird. I didn't start at this point with the book being the way it is. I'm really happy the way it is, but it wasn't my point.
(07:33):
But that's how it came about. But Corey, I think that the way that I've written books over the last few years, when you look at Virtual Selling, Virtual Training, Selling the Price Increase, and now Selling in a Crisis. It's really the way that good sales professionals should be looking at their marketplace and looking at their world, is you got to be paying attention to patterns.
(07:54):
Because if you can get ahead of the curve on the activity, on the messaging, on how you're changing. Even changing markets. Part of this book is, you've got to go where the money is. So if you're shifting into a different market because you know that that market's going to go there, there's Chris with the book.
(08:10):
So most people in the world are reacting. You don't have to be. You can be proactive. You have to pay attention to what's happening around you.
Corey Frank (08:18):
So with that, Chris and I talk in our Market Dominance podcast certainly, a lot about the signals we get from prospects. The pauses, the not-pauses. The signals they give you by not responding to emails, ghosting, et cetera.
(08:33):
When you look at particularly selling in a crisis, what are some of these... We talk about 55 ways, but what are some of these ways? You said to pay attention to the patterns. What are some of those patterns that you're talking about?
Jeb Blount (08:45):
Well, when you think about prospects teaching you. That's the way I look at it. A prospect teaches you what's happening in their world. Those lessons come in a couple of ways.
(08:53):
If you're brand new... So for example, if you're running ConnectAndSell, and you're having lots of conversations, probably the easiest way to learn how to have a conversation with a prospect is to have lots of conversations with prospects. Pretty soon you kind of figure out, this is the things they're interested in. These are the things they're not interested in. Especially if you're going down a market vertical.
(09:11):
That's everyday work. If you're in a crisis, or in a disruptive period, economic downturn. It could be energy crisis. It could be any of the things that are impacting companies today. You've got to pay attention to what questions your prospects are asking you. You've got to pay attention to how slow they're moving, or how fast they're moving.
(09:32):
So for example, in selling in a crisis, one of the things that we know to be true is that, when you're in a situation where people feel stressed or overwhelmed, or they feel like making a decision to do business with you is super risky, time is not on your side. You don't have six months to work a deal. You've got to advance that deal micro-step by micro-step by micro-step.
(09:56):
And if they're not willing to match your effort and move along with you, it's a pretty clear signal that you may not have a deal there. The most expensive thing that you can do during a crisis period, during a recession, is to invest a lot of time in the wrong prospect.
(10:11):
So the signals that you get from prospects along the way are, "Hey, am I really in this with you? Am I really interested in working with you?" Along the way, you've got to pay attention to the people that you are dealing with. Because, as we start moving into an economic downturn, as winter starts coming on, decision-making authority begins to shift and move inside organizations.
(10:33):
Right now, it's typically at a middle level to a low level. As the crisis heats up, as the recession comes on, it'll begin moving up higher in the organization, and you're not going to know when that's going to happen. So you have to start paying attention to when you ask those prospects to do something, what do they do? How do they do it? How do they respond to you?
(10:55):
You have to pay attention to cognitive dissonance. You have to pay attention to their body language. All of those things matter. And a good salesperson, a good sales professional, lives in the land of awareness. Because they understand that you cannot be delusional and successful at the same time. And if we ignore those patterns, we begin to live inside of delusion.
Corey Frank (11:16):
So Chris, you, as the CEO of ConnectAndSell, you see several million phone calls a year. If you look at, we're talking about flight school, IFR and VFR type of ratings, right?You not only have the visual flight, by being on the ground with your clients, Chris, and seeing kind of the residue and the body language over the last few months. But you have the IFR, the instrument ratings as well, to see what's that residue that shows up in all the ConnectAndSell reports from the data. So with what Jeb is talking about, are you seeing many of the same things?
Chris Beall (11:51):
Well, one of the ones we have seen... Yeah, we do see some things. One of the ones we've seen is, we get a signal back that says people have left their job, and it's called person left remove in our world. And that signal has gone from a 2018 level of about 3.3% per month, and it went up during this whole great reshuffle, et cetera, et cetera, up to about 5.2% per month.
(12:15):
And we can look at it by how senior the people are. As Jeb said, the decision-making authority is likely to move up in organizations, and it moves up very, very fast. The reason it moves up is somebody has a meeting and says, "Okay, CFO's got a lot of power."
(12:31):
During a crisis, CFOs have a huge amount of power in organizations. In fact, you can generally say that the power shifts from the CEO to the CFO in a crisis. That's what really happens. And the CEO's left trying to figure out what to do with the resources they're allowed to have.
(12:47):
I know a lot of people think CEOs are like big powerful beasts that do everything. Actually, kind of they're both reporting to the board, the CFO and the CEO effectively. Unless the organization's put together kind of funny. And you get these power shifts that are going on.
(13:02):
And they tend to be represented in reality by, suddenly somebody who could spend $50,000 has got to go get approval for $10,000. Or for anything. That's a fairly common one.
(13:15):
What we don't normally see in sales, and we have to learn to adapt to in a crisis, is not just continuous change and staying on top of stuff, it's discontinuous change. So there's continuous change going on like, "Hey, now if my deal takes three months, I have a 15% chance the person I'm working with is gone before the end of the deal."
(13:36):
Think about that. So you're better off doing a deal that can be done earlier, and then cementing it as best you can to somebody who's likely to still be there and start delivering value, than to see if you can do a better deal in three months, which you might have been [inaudible 00:13:51]
Corey Frank (13:52):
So are you saying [inaudible 00:13:53] take a smaller price deal? Is that what I hear you saying? Potentially [inaudible 00:13:56]
Chris Beall (13:56):
I always make the distinction between price and chunk size. So price is price. Your unit price is your unit price. Whatever it is, you're probably not going to move off of that. Chunk size has a lot to do with what you can get done in a amount of time you have with the people that you're working with.
(14:12):
And chunk size, in a crisis, it's often wise... It feels funny, but it's often wise to actually come down in chunk size, spread your portfolio, and take market share. The best thing you can do in a crisis is while everybody else is trying to keep the lights on, you take the market.
(14:29):
And they wake up when it's all [inaudible 00:14:33] "What happened?" And it's like, "Well, I took the market." Then that's what our show's all about, is market dominance. "I took the market while you were worried about the deal."
Jeb Blount (15:33):
Yup. By the way, that's exactly what we did at Sales Gravy during the last downturn. It wasn't a very long downturn, but we put pedal to the metal, and we sucked up market share and quadrupled the size of our company by not being afraid to lean into it.
(15:48):
And a lot of it was exactly what Chris is saying. Really wise words. We just broke the chunks up into smaller pieces. And it turned out that when we were delivering value, they said we want more of those chunks.
(15:59):
So one way of looking at this, and Chris, I don't want to put words in your mouth, is, when things start hitting the fan, you've got to make it really easy for people to do business with you with a lower risk to them, so that they don't feel like they need to hold off on something. Because time is not on your side.
(16:19):
If you think time's on your side, you are dead wrong. It is not. It will slay you. I love the stat, 15% of the people are leaving within three months. And that's real.
Chris Beall (16:30):
Yeah, and a buying committee, it's even worse. Because say you've got a buying committee of four folks, right? You're almost at a 100% chance that one of the four will leave. And as soon as they leave, that committee goes into paralysis.
(16:42):
It's instantaneous paralysis, because their buying mechanism was the vote among those people. And there is power games being played inside of there. You can never see them perfectly. You're an outsider, they're insiders. All that power is flowing around inside. But something broke down power-wise, because that person left.
(17:00):
And it's not always that they're fired. Sometimes they're the smart ones. The powerful person who says, "I'm getting out of here, I'm going to where the grass is going to be greener, or at least the sprinklers are still going to be turned on tomorrow."
(17:11):
So I think speed becomes a huge, huge issue. Getting cycle times down, and friction out. Those are hard things to do, because we cling to the big deals, the one that's going to make everything happen. And we cling to our friction elements, because we think they provide us with proof of progress. And yet, we have to let go of that stuff if we really want to dominate in a crisis
Corey Frank (17:34):
Yeah, for sure. You know, one of the things, Jeb, you talk about certainly in a lot of your books, is activity is everything. Especially in a crisis, Chris, certainly you have a powerful weapon like ConnectAndSell that helps you amplify, and certainly modulate, upscale your activities is everything.
(17:52):
But Jeb, with that in mind, in these 55 ways, is there such a thing as, do I have to prospect smarter? Or is it, do I have to prospect more? Or do I have to prospect differently? When you talk about, again that broad axiom of activity is everything, how can we frame that in towards the crisis mentality here?
Jeb Blount (18:13):
All of the above. You have to get more prospecting done, in less time, with greater outcomes. And so you have to prospect faster, and you have to get more done. Which is why ConnectAndSell's such a great product.
(18:27):
You have to have more conversations with people. And you have to do it, and you have to compress the time. Because you've got to get much more prospecting done during a crisis period, because there are going to be fewer buyers. It's just necessary to sift through all of the soil to find the gold.
(18:46):
But you also have to do some things different. I mean, you have to maybe change your message a little bit. That's going to be important. You're going to face a little bit different prospecting objections. Most of it's going to be deferment objections. "We're not buying right now, we're not doing anything right now."
(19:02):
You're going to have to get through those. And you're going to have to pay attention to Willie Sutton. Willie Sutton is the namesake of Sutton's Law. Sutton's Law simply describes, you have to go where the money is.
(19:13):
So you're going to have to begin shifting what you consider your ideal qualified prospect as we move into a down market. And that just simply means the money's going to be moving someplace. It may not be moving in the market you've been calling in, so go find another market.
(19:28):
And then you've got to be prepared multiple times to shift. Because sometimes that money will move into one segment, and then move to another segment. It might move into a certain size company, away from other size companies.
(19:40):
This goes back to knowing your market, knowing your business, knowing your customer base. Knowing what's happening at the macro level and at the micro level. It means studying, being an expert.
(19:52):
But you have to do all of those things. You have to prospect more, you have to be more efficient. And sometimes you have to be different. Different messaging, different ways of dealing with objections, and into different markets.
Corey Frank (20:06):
And Chris, in your world, when you look at, again, the weapon of ConnectAndSell. Dial-to-connect rates, conversation / conversion rates. Dial-to-meeting rates. What kind of residue and signals are you seeing?
(20:19):
Much like what you talked about earlier with the folks who are no longer employed. You saw a little bit of blip a few months ago, that was a leading indicator. What are you seeing from dial-to-connect, dial-to-meeting rates that kind of buttresses what Jeb's talking about?
Chris Beall (20:34):
Well, I always look at the most calibrated reps, right? So you look at, over time, who produces certain number of meetings per prospecting hour. Because that's really what the number is. Time is not your friend. Time goes tick, tick, tick. You've got a prospecting hour, what do you produce?
(20:48):
A fabulous number is, well, we know some folks who can go two and a half, three meetings per hour that they can produce like clockwork. Most really good, top-of-funnel folks who other people would say are good, they're going to be at about 0.6.
(21:05):
But if you take that top person, and you see that meetings per rep hour go down, all things being equal, you have got to move. And if you don't have a calibrated person, you're kind of screwed. Because now the question is, "Well what's really going on?" And what's probably going on is actually what Jeb talks about in chapter 44.
(21:23):
Chapter 44 is Control Your Emotions. "Selling in a crisis can push you to the edges of emotional extremes. These emotional extremes become your Achilles heel. Unmanaged, they betray you, make you weak, cause you to lose self-control, and make it impossible for you to effectively influence buyers who are likely being impacted by similar emotions."
(21:44):
The death spiral in sales is when your emotions start to be affected by their responses. When they're affected negatively, you become less effective. And the place you become less effective is at the opener of your cold call.
(21:59):
That's where you go to crap. That's where you go to hell in a hand basket. Your voice tightens up, you're a little bit off, and everybody wants to hang up on you. So that's what I always look for, is that first hint.
(22:12):
It's a very athletic business. Think of how you do it with athletes, right? If it's a wide receiver, you're looking for the guy who's breaking a little bit late and gets hit in the side of the helmet by the ball. It's like, "Why weren't you looking back for that?" Because he's tight. That's why. Because he's tight. And as soon as you're tight you can't execute.
(22:33):
So I look for that tightness in that number. Which is a discontinuous, or rather quick change in meetings per rep hour from a highly calibrated top performer. And then you kind of go, "That's the market." Go down in the organization, you're going to see it from their own emotions. Now you've got a coaching thing that you've got to work on.
Corey Frank (22:54):
You bring up a great point. We have to do a plug to our friend Brad Ferguson and then Dave Kurlan from OMG. Because the OMG sales assessment tool, they have a metric in there, a measurable aspect, that says your ability to stay in the moment. And can you take a punch or not, right, Jeb?
(23:12):
I'm sure that you see this in... It's tough enough in cold calling, when you're doing prospecting. You talk a lot about it, I know, in the discovery, which we're going to talk about a little bit later here. But how do you coach that, from your perspective?
(23:26):
From your team at Sales Gravy, they go out, and I'm somebody that, I'm going to get turned off my focus here. Because the prospect is maybe a little bit more antsy, a little bit more animated, a little bit more agitated. How can you coach me to stay in the moment, om, Spock-like, keep the game going?
Jeb Blount (23:45):
It's more of a pattern of things. It's not going to be one call. So it's going to be multiple calls that are going to start pushing salespeople to change their pattern, and the way that they approach prospects on a cold call, because they become emotional.
(23:59):
In other words, they begin anticipating that they're going to get hit in the head, essentially is what happens. They get tight. They're like, "I'm going to get punched in the face." So they come off more insecure, they lose their confidence.
(24:10):
And in a cold-call situation, because you're moving so fast. I mean, essentially it's verbal judo at 100 miles an hour. If you're tight, you're going to get nailed. So the downward spiral becomes, they get hit in the head, it hurts, then they flinch again, and then they get hit in the head again. Then it hurts. And then it just gets worse and worse and worse in the way that they're approaching them.
(24:31):
So if you're a sales leader, first of all, what Chris said is exactly right. Go watch your salespeople. Calibrate. Look at your top salespeople, look at the people in the middle. Pay attention to what's happening to them. Listen to their calls. Be present. Pay attention to them.
(24:46):
You can't lead this from sitting behind a desk looking at your email. You need to be there and listen to calls. In my case, I'll go get on calls with them. So I'll go make calls with the salesperson, have the same conversations, see what they're experiencing, and then sit back and say, "Okay, we're getting this objection from a customer or from our prospects. How are we going to handle that?"
(25:10):
And then we're going to coach the messaging, build the messaging, replay the messaging, role-play the messaging, and then we're going to go get back on the telephones again. Because all they really need is just to know how they're going to handle that moment. And how are they going to handle their emotions when they get punched in the face.
(25:26):
But sometimes you forget. If you get hit enough times, you just forget. A really good way of looking at this. And Chris, this is kind of a connection to what you're saying.
(25:36):
Most people know I'm just big into horses. It's my thing. And I had a horse last spring that refused a jump on me really dirty, real bad, and it broke my foot. Then I get on another horse, and I get on another horse, and suddenly I feel fear because I think those horses are going to do the same thing.
(25:57):
Now this is all happening at the subconscious level, and I'm tight. Well, if I'm tight, what I do is I change the horse's behavior because of my behavior.
(26:07):
What my coach did for me was say, "Hey Jeb, guess what? Let me show you a picture of what's happening. Here's a video. This is you on that horse going over the jump. See how far forward you are? See what you're doing?"
(26:20):
So if you're a coach, you have to sit with your salespeople, and then you have to help them become aware of the way they've changed their behavior. Because usually when they start changing those behaviors, they don't know it. It's just one little thing at a time.
(26:33):
And then you have to sometimes get on the calls with them and show them it's going to be okay. But more than anything, you want to help them with their messaging. You want to listen to what they're doing, and you want to get them back in track.
(26:45):
It's no different than the coach with the wide receiver that's cutting just a little bit early. You're going to show them some game film. You're going to say, "Here's what you're doing, now let's go out and practice it."And that's how you get them better. It's not like the person's talent took a hit, it's their emotions that took a hit. As the coach, that's what your job is, is to fill and close that gap.
Corey Frank (27:03):
I think an example that you talked about, I believe it was on your blog recently or one of your podcasts, you talked about your son conducting one of the seminars. And a gentleman in the audience raised his hand and says, "Hey, this whole fanatical prospecting thing, is it even relevant today? Does that stuff even work?"
(27:21):
Now talk about getting a signal that there's some fear there, right Chris? And I'll let you tell the rest of the story if you recall. How did your speaker, how did your son, handle that particular question?
Jeb Blount (27:30):
He just pulls out his list and picks up the phone. He just rips off 20 outbound prospecting calls, he sets a few appointments. And he just looks at him and says, "Is it relevant?" That was it. That's the truth.
(27:43):
So he covered that gap by showing them that what they were fearing was all the wrong thing. I mean, all they really wanted him to do was to let them off the hook. And Chris, you'll love this, that the phone didn't work anymore.
(27:56):
I mean, it wasn't about whether fanatical prospecting was good or not. It was whether or not they should be talking with people in real time, in synchronous conversations, on the telephone. Or should they just sit around in their sales enablement platform and spam people with a bunch of crappy emails. And he just shut the whole thing down, just in that moment.
(28:16):
And my kid, by the way, looking at patterns. When he was in high school, I used to make him come in, and I would give him a list of people to call and we would practice messaging. I'd have it on speaker phone and all I wanted him to do was get objections.
(28:31):
So I wanted to hear all the objections that he got. Then we would change the messaging, and he would come in and we would do it again the next day. And we would change the messaging until we would hone it, and we would start getting fewer objections than we were getting conversations.
(28:47):
You're always going to get objections. But if I can improve the probability that I get a conversation and reduce the probability I get an objection, I'm going to get more meetings. If I get more meetings, I'm going to sell more.
(28:55):
So it's the same thing that Chris was talking about. As a leader, you've got to listen. Pay attention to what's happening around you, what your patterns are. You cannot hide in the sand.
(29:05):
And Chris, I'd love to get your opinion on this, but I've got to tell you, I think a lot of leaders are frightened to death of coaching prospecting activity. I think it scares them. I don't think that they like it. I think that they will do anything to stay away from it. I think it makes them feel uncomfortable.
(29:22):
And I can tell you that, if you're a leader and you will go sit down next to your rep, and you'll make dials with them, you'll be the greatest hero in the world. They'll tell everybody what you did. Because most leaders are afraid to do that, because they're afraid that they'll get rejected. They're afraid that they'll fail. They're afraid that their reps will see them fail.
(29:41):
I do it all the time, Corey. I make egregious mistakes. Every once in a while I'll sell something. I mean crazy as it sounds, I'll get a deal. I'll get somebody on the hook. But usually I'm crashing and burning right next to it.
(29:52):
They don't even notice. I'm the guy that wrote Fanatical Prospecting, and I'm messing everything up. All they see is that I'm sitting there on the phone on a list.
Corey Frank (30:01):
Yup, yup.
Chris Beall (30:02):
Yeah, I've got an example of this that's quite illuminating. So Scott Webb over at HUB International, chief sales officer of the Central Region there. He's figured out two things I think that everybody should think about a little bit when it comes to this question of the emotions and prospecting.
(30:18):
One is, he doesn't let anybody prospect using our weapon unless it's in a group setting. And the group setting is all Zoom, but it's a group setting. And it's like, you come to this, you come, we start on the second. It's at 9:00:00 it starts. And it ends at 9:59:59, and whatever's left, and it's over.
(30:44):
And you've got to earn your way in. You've got to earn your way in by converting it greater than 10% conversation to meetings. And you have four sessions in which to do it, after which, "Sorry, you're out."
(30:55):
But he does another thing, which is he leads from the front. And he leads from the front, he's on every one of those. He's calling with them. He has somebody else who's paying attention and coaching. We provide that person.
(31:06):
And as a result, it's sort of like a no excuses world. You really don't expect the head coach to go out there and run that pattern better than the wide receiver, better than that first round draft pick. But he does it.
(31:18):
He converts, by the way, at 100%. And he does it using techniques I've never seen before [inaudible 00:31:24]
Corey Frank (31:24):
100%. Come on.
Chris Beall (31:27):
It's what Cherryl Turner has adopted called the insistence close. It's quite fascinating, and it takes care of a lot of emotions. But the big emotional thing is, look, we don't like to talk about it, but we're kind of herd animals.
(31:40):
A lot of salespeople think they're not. They think, "Oh, I'm [inaudible 00:31:44] I'm this independent, I'm lone wolf, blah, blah blah." Fact of matter is, people are braver in groups than they are individually. And once you get that sort of herd thing going, now you can coach to first failure very easily.
(31:57):
And we're big advocates of coach to first failure. Never coach the second thing, because it's the first thing that screwed up the second thing. Just coach the first thing. Push the damn button, have another conversation. See how you do.
(32:09):
But I mean, I've coached a lot of stuff. You know, Corey, I used to teach people rock climbing. The second failure tends to be really bad when you're climbing. It's the one that starts with the word falling ends with the fall. It's the failure before that, that causes the fall. It's not the one on the move, it's the one that was going to set up the move.
(32:28):
And that's true in sales too. It's the previous thing that you didn't quite get that left you in an awkward position, left you out of balance, left you too far forward on the horse. Whatever it happens to be. It's that first failure you've got to coach to. But you've got to do it under pressure. Because when they're not under pressure, they all perform.
Corey Frank (32:46):
Mm-hmm.
Most people look at a potential job from the standpoint of “What am I going to earn?” Austin Finch, Funnel Media Group’s podcast editor and today’s guest on Market Dominance Guys, talks with our host, Chris Beall, about an additional and very important way of looking at any new employment you’re considering. They suggest asking yourself the question, “What am I going to learn?” Austin cautions job hunters that even a high-paying job can be a dead-end job. When you’re looking at a new job — whether it’s in sales or another field — Austin suggests that “If you can gain experience, and move on to gain more, then there’s no reason to hold yourself back.” Listen to the whole podcast for more words of career wisdom from Chris and Austin in today’s insightful and helpful Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “What Am I Going to Learn?”
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About Our Guest
Austin Finch is an in-demand podcast editor for Funnel Media Group. He is currently a senior at Beaverton High School in Beaverton, Oregon.
Who’s behind the curtain making the Market Dominance Guys the great podcast that it is? It’s Austin Finch, an editor at Funnel Media Group, which produces Market Dominance Guys. In listening to this conversation between Austin and our host, Chris Beall, you would never know that Austin is the youngest guest ever interviewed for this podcast. Currently 17 years old, he has edited Market Dominance Guys for several years and has recently added Helen Fanucci’s “Love Your Team” podcast to his editing responsibilities. In talking with this intelligent, thoughtful, and insightful young man, Chris asks about the challenges of podcast editing, including the pruning and grafting necessary to increase a podcast audience’s understanding and to decrease the distractibility caused by any audio glitches or guests’ faux pas. Austin loves his job and sees his editing work as that of a translator for the hosts’ and guests’ messages, and his goal as “Helping to Get the Message Across,” which just happens to be the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode.
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About Our Guest
Austin Finch is an in-demand podcast editor for Funnel Media Group. He is currently a senior at Beaverton High School in Beaverton, Oregon.
Retaining your top talent and delivering results is a challenge for all sales leaders when your top talent can walk out the door without taking a single step.
The hybrid work revolution has made sales management the most pivotal role in the innovation economy—and simultaneously the most challenging. Our guest today is Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft, with 25 years managing hybrid teams and has an in-depth understanding of the problems facing sales managers today. Our Market Dominance Guys’ host, Chris Beall, conducts this second interview in his two-part conversation with Helen about her new book, Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World. In this podcast and in Helen’s book are details on not only what sales managers must be doing to thrive, but how to do them. It’s definitely a quintessential guide — with all the steps you need to know. But it’s even more than that as the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys episode states, it’s “A Blueprint for Success.”
About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft is the author of Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World, available November 1, 2022.
In this scary new world of employment, where top sales talent has the power to stay with your team or leave you in the lurch, how do you hold onto that top talent? Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft and our guest on Market Dominance Guys, knows the answer to this question — and that answer has 17 parts. Helen has taken her 25 years of experience managing remote teams and turned that knowledge into a ground-breaking book titled, Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World (available on Amazon Nov. 1, 2022). In it, Helen details the 17 conversations that sales leaders must master with their team to successfully attract and retain top talent. Our podcast host, Chris Beall, questions Helen about her tried-and-true theories on why putting your sales team members first will get you the results you’re expecting. Get ready to take notes about this brave new approach to managing sales teams in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “17 Conversations That Matter.”
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About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci is a Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft and the author of Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World, available November 1, 2022.
In this scary new world of employment, where top sales talent has the power to stay with your team or leave you in the lurch, how do you hold onto that top talent? Helen Fanucci, Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft and our guest on Market Dominance Guys, knows the answer to this question — and that answer has 17 parts. Helen has taken her 25 years of experience managing remote teams and turned that knowledge into a ground-breaking book titled, Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World (available on Amazon Nov. 1, 2022). In it, Helen details the 17 conversations that sales leaders must master with their team to successfully attract and retain top talent. Our podcast host, Chris Beall, questions Helen about her tried-and-true theories on why putting your sales team members first will get you the results you’re expecting. Get ready to take notes about this brave new approach to managing sales teams in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “17 Conversations That Matter.”
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About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci is a Transformational Sales Leader at Microsoft and the author of Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World, available November 1, 2022.
What’s your Big Idea? And does your Big Idea solve your prospect’s Big Problem? Exploring this important aspect of a discovery call today are Chris Beall and Corey Frank. As Chris explains it, at the beginning of a discovery call, you don’t really know what problem your prospect is facing. And because prospects are generally reluctant to confess their companies’ issues and concerns to strangers, it’s often tough for you to determine whether this is a call that will lead to the next step in the sales process — or will lead nowhere. You can nudge a prospect toward the confessional with a few probing questions, but you can’t necessarily get them to sit down in the booth and open up. So, how do you find out if your product or service is a good match for their needs or wants? Listen in as Corey and Chris teach you how to subtly and expertly steer your prospect away from their initial apprehension of talking to a stranger all the way to the moment when they finally feel safe enough to divulge the information you’re seeking. Then, and only then, will you know if your product will truly solve their problem. As always, our two sales experts offer lots of helpful advice on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Is Your Product the Answer?”
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What’s your Big Idea? And does your Big Idea solve your prospect’s Big Problem? Exploring this important aspect of a discovery call today are Chris Beall and Corey Frank. As Chris explains it, at the beginning of a discovery call, you don’t really know what problem your prospect is facing. And because prospects are generally reluctant to confess their companies’ issues and concerns to strangers, it’s often tough for you to determine whether this is a call that will lead to the next step in the sales process — or will lead nowhere. You can nudge a prospect toward the confessional with a few probing questions, but you can’t necessarily get them to sit down in the booth and open up. So, how do you find out if your product or service is a good match for their needs or wants? Listen in as Corey and Chris teach you how to subtly and expertly steer your prospect away from their initial apprehension of talking to a stranger all the way to the moment when they finally feel safe enough to divulge the information you’re seeking. Then, and only then, will you know if your product will truly solve their problem. As always, our two sales experts offer lots of helpful advice on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Is Your Product the Answer?”
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What are the best practices for conducting a successful discovery conversation? And how do those practices differ from having a successful cold call? On today’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, our hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, share their insights into these two distinctly different types of sales conversations. They talk about tone, about call length, and about the practiced performance of a cold call, which has the goal of setting an appointment, versus the slower-paced, getting-to-know-you interchange of information, which has the goal of answering the question, “Does it make sense — to both parties — to proceed further?” Stay tuned to hear the advice and cautions of these two sales experts on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Doing Discovery the Right Way.”
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Full episode transcript below:
Announcer (00:05):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off ramps of driving to the top of your market. With our host, Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch 49.
(00:21):
What are the best practices for conducting a successful discovery conversation? And how do those practices differ from having a successful cold call? On today's Market Dominance Guys Podcast, our host Corey Frank and Chris Beall share their insights into these two distinctly different types of sales conversations.
(00:39):
They talk about tone, about call length and about the practice performance of a cold call, which has the goal of setting an appointment versus the slower paced. Getting to know you interchange of information, which has the goal of answering the question, "Does it make sense to both parties, to proceed further?"
(00:58):
Stay tuned to hear the advice and cautions of these two sales experts on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, Doing Discovery the Right Way.
Chris Beall (01:11):
We do something cool here.
Corey Frank (01:13):
Well, you've always had a great tone and we've had many episodes talking about this, how does the tone in a cold call? Because we've talked about that with the surfboard, the surfer and the wave, with the screenplay and the performance. How does the tone differ? What are some of the best practices for that tone in a discovery, that you see different than a traditional cold call?
Chris Beall (01:37):
Well, for one it's softer. So the cold call is a relatively fast precision operation. In 30 seconds, you're going to go from fear to trust. You're going to go from trust to curiosity, curiosity to commitment. And hopefully when they attend the meeting, that's the next step, which is action, right? Well, that happens in 30 seconds.
(02:04):
A discovery call might be 15 minutes to 30 minutes, 15 minutes is what we always say on the calendar, you know a discovery call has gone well when it goes for 30 minutes. It's one of the reasons to set it short, because if it's going nowhere, well, time is valuable to everybody. If it's gone somewhere, who really puts 15 minutes on their calendar and then puts a meeting right after 15 minutes? So you have a little free buffer to express that this is going somewhere, let's explore further, right?
(02:31):
So in fact, that's a big threshold across it's like, "I see we've gone past 15 minutes, that's worth talking about it." They say, "Yes. You've gone a long way into the confessional. You're really talking about stuff then." So it's a slower kind of thing, I mean, I ask those first two questions, I have all the time in the world. That's my view of a discovery type call, I have all the time in the world. Whereas in a cold call, I don't have all the time in the world, it's a pretty clipped operation. On the cold call, you're managing the tone, kind of millisecond, mega millisecond, it's a practiced ballistic act. It has to be. It's a sincere performance but a performance done the less.
(03:18):
Discovery call is more kind of a dance, a slower dance, you might spend five or 10 minutes just getting into it. Now, some people don't have that personality and they're going to cut you off and say, "Okay, so what's this all about?" That's fine. They want to break into the confessional, like the shining knight and can come in with the ax, here's Johnny.
Corey Frank (03:41):
Right.
Chris Beall (03:42):
Whatever, that's okay, clearly you're not too apprehensive or maybe they're just being aggressive in order to cover their apprehension. But to me, the real key to discovery calls is, curiosity takes time to be allowed to do its job, to be allowed to unfold. And it requires being in an emotional state where you can afford to be curious, because being curious is incredibly vulnerable.
(04:06):
When you were being curious, so what did I say about some cat, right? You're offering yourself up to see if you have another life, right? Because bad things could happen to curious people, so it's slower. And I like asking for help because it takes a while for somebody to decide to give you some help. And the help is, where are you in the face of our blue whirling planet? And then when everything goes great, how does your thing help that person? How does it change?
Corey Frank (04:36):
We have so many wraps in a lot of our clients, right? I'm sure in the clients that you work with as well. They like to just wing it, they like to just jump right into the questions, try to validate the banter as quickly as possible to get to that heralded POC and next steps. And they lose the romance and they lose all the authenticity that can come from that lack of resistance, that trust that you've built up, that it's a continuity from the cold call to the discovery.
(05:10):
And it sounds like, right, there's a lot of folks reps that don't understand if you have a BDR setting calls for you, when they show up, it's your responsibility to take that baton of trust and have it grow, have it foster. And what I hear you saying, Chris, or even acknowledge it, that there is some trust built up.
Chris Beall (05:33):
Right.
Corey Frank (05:33):
Don't water it down or piss it away in the first couple of minutes by, like you said, doing something stupid, like actually trying to sell them so overtly.
Announcer (05:42):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
(05:45):
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts and employee successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world.
(06:04):
From crafting just the right cold call screenplay, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire team, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branchfortynine.com
(06:24):
And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Chris Beall (06:33):
Urgency is the enemy of a good discovery call. If you have urgency, I would compare it to two things, I don't know whether port's analogies or athletic analogies are all always kind of, don't they're not dangerous. But not everybody appreciates them but I'm going to use two of them.
(06:50):
They're two things that, one of which I do reasonably well, the other which I do reasonably poorly, is that they have very similar qualities to them and one is a golf swing and the other is skiing bumps. So in both cases, in a golf swing, you have to have good posture. You've got to have a lot of things that are in the right place. But you have to be very soft in two things at your grip and how your risks work. Otherwise, you can't release the club and the club wants to be released and it'll fight you pretty hard, if you grip it too tight and have tight wrists, right?
(07:21):
You have to be easy and patient on the golf swing, being quick is the number one reason that golf swings go awry and that's why golf is a hard sport. Competitively, because when you're under competitive pressure, you get tight and tightness results into rigidity. And rigidity and quickness in turning the swing around too fast, not letting it go through its entire motion is not effective in golf, as I am reminded on a regular basis but actually, I hate to say it, have a pretty effective golf swing.
(07:57):
Skiing bumps is very similar but what has to be soft is your knees. As you get rigid, which it feels like you should, because when you go off that bump and you're going down to the next one, it's like, "I got to get ready for this." And you tighten up but you have to do is soften up. And you've got to accept that it's going to happen. And it may feel fast but the slower it feels like tapening as you're going down the slope. And kind of maintaining your posture but being soft in the knees, the better.
(08:25):
It's very similar and it's a different kind of athletic activity. The cold call is one kind of athletic activity, this is more like, Hey, if you're going to ski an entire bump around, it's not going to happen in, well, maybe it'll happen in 27 seconds. But it's going to feel a lot longer than that, right?
Corey Frank (08:41):
Sure.
Chris Beall (08:42):
And staying there, staying present, knowing where you're looking, what you're trying to do, being in charge, so to speak but being soft, is really important in a discovery call. And when you're urgent, you're not soft and the other person's going to respond to the urgency. But backing up, you're coming forward with your urgent questions, they're backing up into a safe place called, "I'm going to answer your questions but I'm not getting answer the big question, which is what's my big problem?"
Corey Frank (09:12):
So let's get into this, because we're going to prognosticate a little bit. But again, with the hundreds of thousands of phone calls, I think between us and certainly the millions from ConnectAndSell archives. When you have a rep who says the lead that I got from my BDR is no good. At what percentage do you think that the lead is no good? Because they only validate or they only come to that decision, usually after they've tried to run a process, tried to run a discovery on that prospect.
(09:48):
So what I'm getting at is, the salvageable quotient if you will, by Doing Discovery the Right Way, by looking at from your experience, how many leads that come over from a BDR, a frontier or an SDR team. That go to a typical rep who runs discovery, are really maybe the fault of the discoverer and not necessarily the fault of the BDR and the qualification of that lead.
Chris Beall (10:19):
Well, I'll answer that in two ways. One is in my view, BDR should never qualify. Ambush conversations are really bad places to get the truth out of somebody, qualification requires the truth. The discovery meeting is where qualification and take place.
(10:33):
So, I'll call it the technical qualification, the proforma qualification needs to happen in the creation of the list. The list is, as far as we know, qualified in advance. What are they qualified for? They're qualified to be worth 15 minutes to explore the question of whether it makes sense to do anything further. That's all we do in sales, is we only make one decision, does it make any sense mutually to do anything next, right? That's called next steps all over the place for the most part and that part of sales is probably pretty solid.
(11:06):
So to me, anybody who comes to a discovery meeting is qualified to participate in that discovery meeting, which is the only question that's on the table at that point. It's not like you're sacrificing your firstborn, it's 15 minutes, maybe you were going to do something awesome during those 15 minutes. But I've watched a lot of people work in my life and it's pretty much not going to be something awesome you're going to do in the next 15 minutes.
Corey Frank (11:31):
They're in your TAM, they're in your ICP and they accepted the meeting. In a market dominant theme, if anything we've done in these three years and couple hundred episodes, it's hopefully to get people to understand the basic tenants of market dominance.
Chris Beall (11:47):
Exactly. And then a whole bunch of good things could happen from a conversation. One is, they might understand what it is that you and your company offer. And know somebody else who has the problem that they don't have. Or has the timing that they don't have or whatever it happens to be.
(12:02):
You may discover that there's a timing opportunity, I had somebody reach out to me today and welcome me back from the honeymoon. Because they kept track of the timing issue because last time, they wanted to talk to me, I was headed on a honeymoon. Brilliant. Are they going to sell something to me or not? I don't know. But it was pretty smart to talk to me the first time, so that they knew enough about my situation that they could say, "Hey, welcome back from your honeymoon. I hope it was great."
(12:28):
And then they actually said something specific from the previous conversation and this was in a digital medium but it made the digital medium effective enough, they'll probably actually get a medium with me, so. I don't think I'll buy anything by the way but that's because I know what's wrong with their product. But what if I'm wrong?
(12:47):
There's a lot of good things that can come out of conversations, there's no bad things that can come out of them, other than the worst cases, you spend 15 minutes of your life talking to somebody and not making a deal. Well, you're going to spend a lot of your life doing a lot of things and not making deals, there's nothing magical about this thing, it's kind of like part of the job, right? Does it take you 15 minutes to even get to your home office and get set up? That's part of the job, there's a lot of things that are part of the job.
(13:14):
Sales reps often get that coming home feeling like, "I'm almost there, compared to somebody who looks at the lottery numbers and says, "That, it ended in a one and I have the one that in a two, see, I was almost there."
(13:28):
Like two is closer to one and a lottery ticket, it's not, trust me. Those of you who know a little bit about me know that I have a background in mathematics. And I will assure you, the ink that's on that lottery ticket doesn't know whether it's a one or a two. And then they're not close to each other in some weird way, it's just in your head. But reps, get that like, "I'm almost there." And it's a tragedy if this doesn't lead to a commission check for me.
(13:55):
Well, it's actually just part of the job, part of the job is to hold really great discovery conversations that lead to new insights on both parties.
Announcer (14:10):
ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. Give your fingers rest with ConnectAndSell patented technology. You'll load your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day.
(14:22):
And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing how many tears they shed while watching the end of Toy Story, kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com
What are the best practices for conducting a successful discovery conversation? And how do those practices differ from having a successful cold call? On today’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, our hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, share their insights into these two distinctly different types of sales conversations. They talk about tone, about call length, and about the practiced performance of a cold call, which has the goal of setting an appointment, versus the slower-paced, getting-to-know-you interchange of information, which has the goal of answering the question, “Does it make sense — to both parties — to proceed further?” Stay tuned to hear the advice and cautions of these two sales experts on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Doing Discovery the Right Way.”
----more----
Full episode transcript below:
Announcer (00:05):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off ramps of driving to the top of your market. With our host, Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch 49.
(00:21):
What are the best practices for conducting a successful discovery conversation? And how do those practices differ from having a successful cold call? On today's Market Dominance Guys Podcast, our host Corey Frank and Chris Beall share their insights into these two distinctly different types of sales conversations.
(00:39):
They talk about tone, about call length and about the practice performance of a cold call, which has the goal of setting an appointment versus the slower paced. Getting to know you interchange of information, which has the goal of answering the question, "Does it make sense to both parties, to proceed further?"
(00:58):
Stay tuned to hear the advice and cautions of these two sales experts on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, Doing Discovery the Right Way.
Chris Beall (01:11):
We do something cool here.
Corey Frank (01:13):
Well, you've always had a great tone and we've had many episodes talking about this, how does the tone in a cold call? Because we've talked about that with the surfboard, the surfer and the wave, with the screenplay and the performance. How does the tone differ? What are some of the best practices for that tone in a discovery, that you see different than a traditional cold call?
Chris Beall (01:37):
Well, for one it's softer. So the cold call is a relatively fast precision operation. In 30 seconds, you're going to go from fear to trust. You're going to go from trust to curiosity, curiosity to commitment. And hopefully when they attend the meeting, that's the next step, which is action, right? Well, that happens in 30 seconds.
(02:04):
A discovery call might be 15 minutes to 30 minutes, 15 minutes is what we always say on the calendar, you know a discovery call has gone well when it goes for 30 minutes. It's one of the reasons to set it short, because if it's going nowhere, well, time is valuable to everybody. If it's gone somewhere, who really puts 15 minutes on their calendar and then puts a meeting right after 15 minutes? So you have a little free buffer to express that this is going somewhere, let's explore further, right?
(02:31):
So in fact, that's a big threshold across it's like, "I see we've gone past 15 minutes, that's worth talking about it." They say, "Yes. You've gone a long way into the confessional. You're really talking about stuff then." So it's a slower kind of thing, I mean, I ask those first two questions, I have all the time in the world. That's my view of a discovery type call, I have all the time in the world. Whereas in a cold call, I don't have all the time in the world, it's a pretty clipped operation. On the cold call, you're managing the tone, kind of millisecond, mega millisecond, it's a practiced ballistic act. It has to be. It's a sincere performance but a performance done the less.
(03:18):
Discovery call is more kind of a dance, a slower dance, you might spend five or 10 minutes just getting into it. Now, some people don't have that personality and they're going to cut you off and say, "Okay, so what's this all about?" That's fine. They want to break into the confessional, like the shining knight and can come in with the ax, here's Johnny.
Corey Frank (03:41):
Right.
Chris Beall (03:42):
Whatever, that's okay, clearly you're not too apprehensive or maybe they're just being aggressive in order to cover their apprehension. But to me, the real key to discovery calls is, curiosity takes time to be allowed to do its job, to be allowed to unfold. And it requires being in an emotional state where you can afford to be curious, because being curious is incredibly vulnerable.
(04:06):
When you were being curious, so what did I say about some cat, right? You're offering yourself up to see if you have another life, right? Because bad things could happen to curious people, so it's slower. And I like asking for help because it takes a while for somebody to decide to give you some help. And the help is, where are you in the face of our blue whirling planet? And then when everything goes great, how does your thing help that person? How does it change?
Corey Frank (04:36):
We have so many wraps in a lot of our clients, right? I'm sure in the clients that you work with as well. They like to just wing it, they like to just jump right into the questions, try to validate the banter as quickly as possible to get to that heralded POC and next steps. And they lose the romance and they lose all the authenticity that can come from that lack of resistance, that trust that you've built up, that it's a continuity from the cold call to the discovery.
(05:10):
And it sounds like, right, there's a lot of folks reps that don't understand if you have a BDR setting calls for you, when they show up, it's your responsibility to take that baton of trust and have it grow, have it foster. And what I hear you saying, Chris, or even acknowledge it, that there is some trust built up.
Chris Beall (05:33):
Right.
Corey Frank (05:33):
Don't water it down or piss it away in the first couple of minutes by, like you said, doing something stupid, like actually trying to sell them so overtly.
Announcer (05:42):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
(05:45):
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts and employee successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world.
(06:04):
From crafting just the right cold call screenplay, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire team, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branchfortynine.com
(06:24):
And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Chris Beall (06:33):
Urgency is the enemy of a good discovery call. If you have urgency, I would compare it to two things, I don't know whether port's analogies or athletic analogies are all always kind of, don't they're not dangerous. But not everybody appreciates them but I'm going to use two of them.
(06:50):
They're two things that, one of which I do reasonably well, the other which I do reasonably poorly, is that they have very similar qualities to them and one is a golf swing and the other is skiing bumps. So in both cases, in a golf swing, you have to have good posture. You've got to have a lot of things that are in the right place. But you have to be very soft in two things at your grip and how your risks work. Otherwise, you can't release the club and the club wants to be released and it'll fight you pretty hard, if you grip it too tight and have tight wrists, right?
(07:21):
You have to be easy and patient on the golf swing, being quick is the number one reason that golf swings go awry and that's why golf is a hard sport. Competitively, because when you're under competitive pressure, you get tight and tightness results into rigidity. And rigidity and quickness in turning the swing around too fast, not letting it go through its entire motion is not effective in golf, as I am reminded on a regular basis but actually, I hate to say it, have a pretty effective golf swing.
(07:57):
Skiing bumps is very similar but what has to be soft is your knees. As you get rigid, which it feels like you should, because when you go off that bump and you're going down to the next one, it's like, "I got to get ready for this." And you tighten up but you have to do is soften up. And you've got to accept that it's going to happen. And it may feel fast but the slower it feels like tapening as you're going down the slope. And kind of maintaining your posture but being soft in the knees, the better.
(08:25):
It's very similar and it's a different kind of athletic activity. The cold call is one kind of athletic activity, this is more like, Hey, if you're going to ski an entire bump around, it's not going to happen in, well, maybe it'll happen in 27 seconds. But it's going to feel a lot longer than that, right?
Corey Frank (08:41):
Sure.
Chris Beall (08:42):
And staying there, staying present, knowing where you're looking, what you're trying to do, being in charge, so to speak but being soft, is really important in a discovery call. And when you're urgent, you're not soft and the other person's going to respond to the urgency. But backing up, you're coming forward with your urgent questions, they're backing up into a safe place called, "I'm going to answer your questions but I'm not getting answer the big question, which is what's my big problem?"
Corey Frank (09:12):
So let's get into this, because we're going to prognosticate a little bit. But again, with the hundreds of thousands of phone calls, I think between us and certainly the millions from ConnectAndSell archives. When you have a rep who says the lead that I got from my BDR is no good. At what percentage do you think that the lead is no good? Because they only validate or they only come to that decision, usually after they've tried to run a process, tried to run a discovery on that prospect.
(09:48):
So what I'm getting at is, the salvageable quotient if you will, by Doing Discovery the Right Way, by looking at from your experience, how many leads that come over from a BDR, a frontier or an SDR team. That go to a typical rep who runs discovery, are really maybe the fault of the discoverer and not necessarily the fault of the BDR and the qualification of that lead.
Chris Beall (10:19):
Well, I'll answer that in two ways. One is in my view, BDR should never qualify. Ambush conversations are really bad places to get the truth out of somebody, qualification requires the truth. The discovery meeting is where qualification and take place.
(10:33):
So, I'll call it the technical qualification, the proforma qualification needs to happen in the creation of the list. The list is, as far as we know, qualified in advance. What are they qualified for? They're qualified to be worth 15 minutes to explore the question of whether it makes sense to do anything further. That's all we do in sales, is we only make one decision, does it make any sense mutually to do anything next, right? That's called next steps all over the place for the most part and that part of sales is probably pretty solid.
(11:06):
So to me, anybody who comes to a discovery meeting is qualified to participate in that discovery meeting, which is the only question that's on the table at that point. It's not like you're sacrificing your firstborn, it's 15 minutes, maybe you were going to do something awesome during those 15 minutes. But I've watched a lot of people work in my life and it's pretty much not going to be something awesome you're going to do in the next 15 minutes.
Corey Frank (11:31):
They're in your TAM, they're in your ICP and they accepted the meeting. In a market dominant theme, if anything we've done in these three years and couple hundred episodes, it's hopefully to get people to understand the basic tenants of market dominance.
Chris Beall (11:47):
Exactly. And then a whole bunch of good things could happen from a conversation. One is, they might understand what it is that you and your company offer. And know somebody else who has the problem that they don't have. Or has the timing that they don't have or whatever it happens to be.
(12:02):
You may discover that there's a timing opportunity, I had somebody reach out to me today and welcome me back from the honeymoon. Because they kept track of the timing issue because last time, they wanted to talk to me, I was headed on a honeymoon. Brilliant. Are they going to sell something to me or not? I don't know. But it was pretty smart to talk to me the first time, so that they knew enough about my situation that they could say, "Hey, welcome back from your honeymoon. I hope it was great."
(12:28):
And then they actually said something specific from the previous conversation and this was in a digital medium but it made the digital medium effective enough, they'll probably actually get a medium with me, so. I don't think I'll buy anything by the way but that's because I know what's wrong with their product. But what if I'm wrong?
(12:47):
There's a lot of good things that can come out of conversations, there's no bad things that can come out of them, other than the worst cases, you spend 15 minutes of your life talking to somebody and not making a deal. Well, you're going to spend a lot of your life doing a lot of things and not making deals, there's nothing magical about this thing, it's kind of like part of the job, right? Does it take you 15 minutes to even get to your home office and get set up? That's part of the job, there's a lot of things that are part of the job.
(13:14):
Sales reps often get that coming home feeling like, "I'm almost there, compared to somebody who looks at the lottery numbers and says, "That, it ended in a one and I have the one that in a two, see, I was almost there."
(13:28):
Like two is closer to one and a lottery ticket, it's not, trust me. Those of you who know a little bit about me know that I have a background in mathematics. And I will assure you, the ink that's on that lottery ticket doesn't know whether it's a one or a two. And then they're not close to each other in some weird way, it's just in your head. But reps, get that like, "I'm almost there." And it's a tragedy if this doesn't lead to a commission check for me.
(13:55):
Well, it's actually just part of the job, part of the job is to hold really great discovery conversations that lead to new insights on both parties.
Announcer (14:10):
ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. Give your fingers rest with ConnectAndSell patented technology. You'll load your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day.
(14:22):
And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing how many tears they shed while watching the end of Toy Story, kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com
"Every discovery call begins with apprehension,” says Chris Beall, our Market Dominance Guys’ co-host, who is back behind the microphone after a two-month absence. Chris goes on to say that you need to be aware that starting a discovery call by interrogating your prospect only increases their apprehension. If you’re going to have a meaningful, successful conversation, you need to use a kinder, gentler approach. Chris talks with his co-host, Corey Frank, about a couple of ways he knows to take a prospect from that feeling of apprehension and fear to a feeling of pride and openness. Then, and only then, will the atmosphere of the call be right for you to ease the conversation into one of mutual discovery, where you and your prospect can learn whether their company is a fit for your product. As the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast states, this can only happen once you’ve succeeded in “Calming Your Prospect’s Apprehension."
----more----
Full episode transcript below:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guy, a program exploring all the high-stakes speed bumps and offramps of driving to the top of your market. With our hosts, Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch 49.
(00:18):
"Every discovery call begins with apprehension," says Chris Beall, our Market Dominance Guys co-host who's back behind the microphone after a two-month absence. Chris says that you need to be aware that starting a discovery call by interrogating your prospect only increases their apprehension. If you're going to have a meaningful, successful conversation, you need to use a kinder, gentler approach. Chris talks with his co-host Corey Frank about a couple of ways he knows to take a prospect from that feeling of apprehension and fear to a feeling of pride and openness. Then and only then will the atmosphere of the call be right for you to ease the conversation into one of mutual discovery, where you and your prospect can learn whether their company is a fit for your product. As the title of today's Market Dominance Guys podcast states, this can only happen once you've succeeded in calming your prospect's apprehension.
Corey Frank (01:27):
Here we are. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank, and with me post-wedding honeymoon holiday bliss, the sage of sales, the prophet of profit, the Hawking of hawking, Chris Beall.
Chris Beall (01:43):
The Hawking of hawking.
Corey Frank (01:44):
So, welcome back from all points across the pond, Chris. Good to have this marital glow about yourself here and good to have you back in the co-host seat where you belong.
Chris Beall (01:56):
Thanks, Corey. I've really missed this part of the professional world. And we were having such a good time, Helen and I were, in, well, Iceland and Copenhagen and Norway and by the Russian border and eating crabs that would've preferred to eat something else themselves.
Corey Frank (02:12):
You missed this part when you talked about that part.
Chris Beall (02:15):
Yeah. I missed this part. We fell into this thing unintentionally some years ago now actually, in 2019. I've been watching them. You did a few while I was gone. Anyway, it's great to be back and hopefully I'll bring something because God knows if I got anything left.
Corey Frank (02:34):
Oh, well. Listen, I think you got a 911 call from Susan, our producer, saying, "You must come back quickly. Corey cannot do these by himself at all, and he needs you in the seat." So, I thought we'd jumped right into it, Chris. This had no easy topics that we're going to venture into on your first episode back. We want to get into the meaty stuff. And one of the things that's been on our mind, certainly here at the Branch 49 team working with some clients, is the discovery call, right? Seen a lot of stuff. The esteemed and prolific writer, commenter Gerry Hill of ConnectAndSell fame, right? I've seen so many postings for him on this topic. You talk about the cold call and we've done a number of episodes, right, Chris?
(03:16):
And if we've learned anything from you and your rantings and writings, it's that the natural state, the primordial state of a prospect when they receive a cold call is that of fear. I think we all know and all the listeners understand that. But when you set up a discovery... I set up a call for you as a prospect to meet with Gerry Hill next Tuesday at 10:00 AM. And here it is Tuesday at 9:58 and you are thinking about this. Should I make it, not make it? And you show up. If the state of a cold call is fear, what is the state, the insight into the prospect's mind on the discovery call, would you say?
Chris Beall (03:55):
Apprehension.
Corey Frank (03:57):
Apprehension.
Chris Beall (03:58):
Apprehension. It's not anxiety.
Corey Frank (03:59):
Not, "What did I just do?"
Chris Beall (04:00):
Anxiety is a little bit too strong, but apprehension. After all, when you show up for a discovery call, you're pretty sure that you're really showing up to be sold to. And if we go back to the cold call, the number one purpose, the purpose of the cold call, is to build trust. And as we've been instructed by people who are our betters, that trust will last forever as long as we don't blow it. And the best way to blow it is to sell to somebody. So, now they're going to show up at this discovery call expecting not to participate in discovery, but to be discovered, right? To be discovered at. They're going to have something done to them. And we don't like going into situations where somebody's going to do something to us. And it actually creates an opportunity to screw up whatever trust you managed to build in the cold call just by how you handle the beginning of a discovery call. So, just like the cold call, you've got to know the purpose and you have to have an underlying belief that supports that purpose.
(05:04):
And that underlying belief is in the potential value of this meeting you're offering, for this human being you're speaking with, in the case where you're never going to do business together. And it's those three conditions have to obtain inside of you in order to be able to sincerely execute on a trust-based cold call that starts an ambush that starts with the other party in a state of fear. So, now here you are. You've gotten past that very difficult situation and you're in a new situation and the strong temptation is to interrogate. And so the party, the other person, shows up. We'll call them the prospect, but that's not really the right way to think about them, in a state of apprehension that you're going to interrogate them in order to trick them into making a bad decision, a decision that's bad for them. Because you're the expert and they're not, and therefore you can lead them by the nose down to some bad decision and they have to resist.
(06:03):
You got a bridle on the horse and now you're going to tug them or you're going to offer them a little carrot, or you're going to say, "If I could show you how this hay over here is three times as nutritious as this hay, would it make you want to buy hay from me for the rest of your life?" Whatever is going to happen to you. And it's happened to all of us. And so apprehension is that base state. And we've talked a little bit about this, that as professionals we have an obligation first to not faint at the sight of blood, right? If we're going to be surgeons, we can't faint the sight of blood. But we have a bigger obligation now that we've controlled our own emotions sufficient to execute, which is we've got to get in there before we start making any changes. Heart surgery doesn't start with the heart. You got to get in there.
(06:51):
Now, maybe it's some modern technique where you thread something up their toe or something like that and jam it up an artery and go, but it could be that we're going to cut down there and we're going to crack the chest open and there's going to be noise. And that's part of the job too. And it's a big part of the job. And in discovery, we have that job ahead of us. And just like when we go to the doctor, we're apprehensive. When that prospect comes to us in a discovery call, they're apprehensive that we're going to do them.
Corey Frank (07:19):
So, how do we screw that up? Between you and I, certainly you more on the ledger side than I, we've listened to hundreds of thousands of phone calls and recordings in our career. So, what are some of those patterns that me as a rep, that I'm going to screw it up right from the beginning?
Chris Beall (07:35):
Yeah. Well, you start off making the assumption that the other person is ready to confess and you start asking questions in which, if they're going to answer them honestly, that they've got to trust you a lot more than they trust you already. And even worse, even more so, you don't treat their emotional state as the most important element of the conversation. In any conversation, the other person's emotional state, if you are a professional, their emotional state is your responsibility, not theirs. You're the one who put them in a position where, in this case, they're apprehensive.
(08:11):
You need to take them as best you can or help them go someplace that's more useful to both of you emotionally. And I think that ignoring the emotions and starting right in on, "So, Corey, how big's your sales team? How many reps do you got?" Right? "How much calling do you do? What's your budget?" Oh my God. You go in for that stuff. And then of course somebody's going, "Ask open-ended questions." Those are open-ended. How big's your calling team? I mean, it's open-ended. The answer could be zero, 300 or, "I don't really feel like telling you that quite yet." And it's in fact, no matter what they say, it's, "I don't feel like telling you that. Not yet anyway."
Corey Frank (08:48):
But they showed up for the call. They showed up for this. The premises are incongruent. "I thought I was going to get X. And you, as the salesperson, are trying to feed me Y," right?
Chris Beall (09:02):
Yeah. Right. I came out of curiosity. If it was a good cold call, it was only curiosity that got me here. So, I'm curious. What am I curious about? Well, I'm not quite sure. I mean, that's what curiosity is about. If we knew the answer, we wouldn't be curious, right? So, I'm curious enough to show up and I'm hopeful that I might learn something that's of value to me. But I'm apprehensive. And it's very hard for two emotions to be inside of a person working at the same time. In fact, that's the nature of emotions. Emotions, they dominate one after another after another. They don't coexist. We can't be apprehensive and excited or joyous at the same time. We can't do that.
Chris Beall (10:33):
Emotions are funny like that, right? We can see two colors more or less at the same time, but we can't experience two emotions at the same time. So, it's fascinating to me. So, And I think there's some simple ideas and actual techniques, very similar to... You know how people got fixated on the 27 seconds thing? It's like, "Oh, it's about the opener in 27 seconds." It never been about the opener in 27 seconds. It's just anything that one could say in order to handle the second part of somebody being afraid of us and getting to that next stage.
(11:34):
And the next stage is emotional. In the cold call, we try to take somebody from fear, they're afraid of us, to trust immediately. That's the shock. The shocking thing is we can go from fear to trust like that. More fear sets us up for more trust, so to speak, because there's more fear to relieve. And there are ways to do that. In the discovery call, there are ways to do it also and they work on the same principle. The principle is emotional substitution. You as a professional are going to help this other person, help them substitute a more useful emotion. So, it can't be idiosyncratic. It's got to be a fairly universal emotion. Well, here's the universal emotion. Pride. It's totally antithetical to apprehension. It's almost the opposite of apprehension. When we're apprehensive, we pull back. And when we're proud, we come forward. And so the prospect is in a pulling back emotion when we start the conversation with them.
(12:38):
So, what can we do to get them to express pride? Well, there's a funny thing that people have as almost a universal source of pride, oddly enough, and it's where they live. And it's because they chose to live there. So, one thing you can do, and I know people will fixate on this and go, "Oh no, it's those words exactly." It's not those words exactly. But here's what I do. I just ask a simple question. First, I want to make it clear that I'm looking for help. I'm not in charge here. I'm not running the show. I'm not making things happen to somebody else. Because they're apprehensive that I'm doing that. So, I say, "Corey, it just helps me a lot to know where somebody is when I'm talking to them. I don't know. It's just a peculiarity of mine. Where are you right now on the face of our blue whirling planet?"
(13:35):
And the reason I say blue whirling planet is actually to give us a sense of togetherness. There's a classic picture that was taken from the moon of Earth, that the Earth is this blue marble hanging in space. And we all know it's spinning except for certain people who think that it's flat or something like that. But they still use GPS. They still use GPS. Why not? Believe the Earth is flat and use GPS. It's a miracle. But anyway. So, that gives us a sense of togetherness. But what I really want to do is then, I've asked for help. It wasn't an interrogation question. It was a please help me question, because this is something I need in order to be able to have a good conversation with somebody. And I want this to be a good conversation. So, I just ask that question. And then it's like, "Where are you?" And it's very different from, "So, where do you live?"
Corey Frank (14:29):
For sure.
Chris Beall (14:30):
It's very different. So, where are you right now? Now, most of the time they're in their home. Some of the time they're on the road. That could be. But in any case, they're probably where they want to be unless you're having discovery calls with people in prison or something like that. And I think that's unusual. There's not a lot of buy-side activity in the B2B world going on. [inaudible 00:14:53]-
Corey Frank (14:53):
Not a lot of TAM. Not a big TAM there.
Chris Beall (14:56):
No. So, sadly there is a big Tam. But anyway, let's leave that Tam alone. But what you get is an opportunity, a very low-cost opportunity, for the other person to replace their apprehension with pride of place. And pride of place has a wonderful quality. And that is, it's not personal, but it is about the person. It's associated with the person. But none of us actually created the city that we're living in or the place we're living in or created our neighborhood unless we have big real estate development chops or something like that. So, most of us, we have various feelings about where we live, but when we're talking to a stranger, the feeling that comes out as pride. And I'll let somebody talk out of a 30-minute meeting for 27 minutes about where they live.
Corey Frank (15:54):
Right, right. So, that's the key, is to acknowledge, understand that their state is apprehension, and making them feel at ease as much as possible. Because if I want the deep confessions, the ones that will drive my traditional discovery, my BANT, if you will, to determine if they're part of a POC or is there any there there, I need to address that. And if I don't, what happens typically?
Chris Beall (16:24):
If I don't, I get a very confusing conversation, which is oppositional. I ask questions and they try to avoid answering them. And they might answer them in a halfway kind of fashion. The answers to my questions are irrelevant. That is, I'm an expert at what I offer. They're the expert of their problem. Whatever their problem is, is deeply theirs. It's peculiar, to use my mother's favorite word. It's peculiar to their situation. It's about things they know about that I don't know about. And until they're ready to share those other things that they know about that I don't know about, we actually can't explore. I mean, I'll call this real B2B. So, say you're selling coffee beans or whatever. Maybe it's easier. I don't know. I've never sold stuff like that. I've sold complicated products like Fuller Brush, spider spray, you know how it goes, right? So, we have to accept their world is deep and rich and not about us, right?
(17:25):
It's deep. It has all sorts of things going on. There's all sorts of constraints, situations. There's timing. There's how are they already solving the problem that you would like to help them solve in a different way. All that stuff's at play. And if we just skip this emotional transition to something else, and I like pride of place, and then I go from pride to place, by the way, my next question is to pride of mission. Because then we're at the heart of it. Because everything they're doing in their job has to do with the mission of their company. They don't think about it like that, but why do they keep that job instead of going to some other job? You don't talk to a lot of people who are basically iron shackles got to work at company X, Y, Z. They're making a daily choice, especially now.
(18:14):
I mean, now as Helen Fanucci's new book coming out, Love Your Team, says, "Your top talent can walk out the door without taking a single step." So, it's a different world now. You're dealing with somebody who's there because they want to be there. So, what's that attachment to mission? And there's a personal element. You don't make it personal. It's like, "What do you do that's so great?" But what I like to ask is the simple question. And again, it's a help me out question. So, I always try to understand somebody's business as best I can before talking with them, because it seems like a good thing to do. I go to the website and I read and I think, and then I always get it wrong. Always. 100% of the time. I like to ask this question, which is, "When everything goes right, when everything's fantastic..." Remember, we're trying to get to problems, right? So, I don't want to go anywhere near the problems quite yet because the problems are live wires. You could get hurt down there, right?
Corey Frank (19:18):
Sure.
Chris Beall (19:18):
So, I want to stay in a safe zone for the moment, which is to remind somebody, why do we all do what we do? Deming said, "We work for pride of workmanship." Who do we work with and where do we work? We work to do good. I mean, that's kind of it. If we thought it was bad, we probably wouldn't do it. If it was evil, maybe some people are like that and we sometimes run into them. But in general, most people are in tune with what their company does. They think it's a good thing.
(19:45):
So, I just ask, "When everything goes right, when everything goes right, when the customer's the right customer and the solution's the right solution, the budget is there, the timing is right, all of the support people and people on both sides do the right things, everything clicks, how does your company or your product change your customer's life?" And I'm really specific. It's changed your customer's life. That other person's life. It's not, "Did it make a buck? Did it add shareholder value? Did it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" It's about somebody's life. And there's a little reminder there that I've never had somebody fail to answer that question. Ever. They always answer. It's almost like, "Huh. Wow. Yeah, we do something cool here."
----more----
"Every discovery call begins with apprehension,” says Chris Beall, our Market Dominance Guys’ co-host, who is back behind the microphone after a two-month absence. Chris goes on to say that you need to be aware that starting a discovery call by interrogating your prospect only increases their apprehension. If you’re going to have a meaningful, successful conversation, you need to use a kinder, gentler approach. Chris talks with his co-host, Corey Frank, about a couple of ways he knows to take a prospect from that feeling of apprehension and fear to a feeling of pride and openness. Then, and only then, will the atmosphere of the call be right for you to ease the conversation into one of mutual discovery, where you and your prospect can learn whether their company is a fit for your product. As the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast states, this can only happen once you’ve succeeded in “Calming Your Prospect’s Apprehension."
----more----
Full episode transcript below:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guy, a program exploring all the high-stakes speed bumps and offramps of driving to the top of your market. With our hosts, Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch 49.
(00:18):
"Every discovery call begins with apprehension," says Chris Beall, our Market Dominance Guys co-host who's back behind the microphone after a two-month absence. Chris says that you need to be aware that starting a discovery call by interrogating your prospect only increases their apprehension. If you're going to have a meaningful, successful conversation, you need to use a kinder, gentler approach. Chris talks with his co-host Corey Frank about a couple of ways he knows to take a prospect from that feeling of apprehension and fear to a feeling of pride and openness. Then and only then will the atmosphere of the call be right for you to ease the conversation into one of mutual discovery, where you and your prospect can learn whether their company is a fit for your product. As the title of today's Market Dominance Guys podcast states, this can only happen once you've succeeded in calming your prospect's apprehension.
Corey Frank (01:27):
Here we are. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank, and with me post-wedding honeymoon holiday bliss, the sage of sales, the prophet of profit, the Hawking of hawking, Chris Beall.
Chris Beall (01:43):
The Hawking of hawking.
Corey Frank (01:44):
So, welcome back from all points across the pond, Chris. Good to have this marital glow about yourself here and good to have you back in the co-host seat where you belong.
Chris Beall (01:56):
Thanks, Corey. I've really missed this part of the professional world. And we were having such a good time, Helen and I were, in, well, Iceland and Copenhagen and Norway and by the Russian border and eating crabs that would've preferred to eat something else themselves.
Corey Frank (02:12):
You missed this part when you talked about that part.
Chris Beall (02:15):
Yeah. I missed this part. We fell into this thing unintentionally some years ago now actually, in 2019. I've been watching them. You did a few while I was gone. Anyway, it's great to be back and hopefully I'll bring something because God knows if I got anything left.
Corey Frank (02:34):
Oh, well. Listen, I think you got a 911 call from Susan, our producer, saying, "You must come back quickly. Corey cannot do these by himself at all, and he needs you in the seat." So, I thought we'd jumped right into it, Chris. This had no easy topics that we're going to venture into on your first episode back. We want to get into the meaty stuff. And one of the things that's been on our mind, certainly here at the Branch 49 team working with some clients, is the discovery call, right? Seen a lot of stuff. The esteemed and prolific writer, commenter Gerry Hill of ConnectAndSell fame, right? I've seen so many postings for him on this topic. You talk about the cold call and we've done a number of episodes, right, Chris?
(03:16):
And if we've learned anything from you and your rantings and writings, it's that the natural state, the primordial state of a prospect when they receive a cold call is that of fear. I think we all know and all the listeners understand that. But when you set up a discovery... I set up a call for you as a prospect to meet with Gerry Hill next Tuesday at 10:00 AM. And here it is Tuesday at 9:58 and you are thinking about this. Should I make it, not make it? And you show up. If the state of a cold call is fear, what is the state, the insight into the prospect's mind on the discovery call, would you say?
Chris Beall (03:55):
Apprehension.
Corey Frank (03:57):
Apprehension.
Chris Beall (03:58):
Apprehension. It's not anxiety.
Corey Frank (03:59):
Not, "What did I just do?"
Chris Beall (04:00):
Anxiety is a little bit too strong, but apprehension. After all, when you show up for a discovery call, you're pretty sure that you're really showing up to be sold to. And if we go back to the cold call, the number one purpose, the purpose of the cold call, is to build trust. And as we've been instructed by people who are our betters, that trust will last forever as long as we don't blow it. And the best way to blow it is to sell to somebody. So, now they're going to show up at this discovery call expecting not to participate in discovery, but to be discovered, right? To be discovered at. They're going to have something done to them. And we don't like going into situations where somebody's going to do something to us. And it actually creates an opportunity to screw up whatever trust you managed to build in the cold call just by how you handle the beginning of a discovery call. So, just like the cold call, you've got to know the purpose and you have to have an underlying belief that supports that purpose.
(05:04):
And that underlying belief is in the potential value of this meeting you're offering, for this human being you're speaking with, in the case where you're never going to do business together. And it's those three conditions have to obtain inside of you in order to be able to sincerely execute on a trust-based cold call that starts an ambush that starts with the other party in a state of fear. So, now here you are. You've gotten past that very difficult situation and you're in a new situation and the strong temptation is to interrogate. And so the party, the other person, shows up. We'll call them the prospect, but that's not really the right way to think about them, in a state of apprehension that you're going to interrogate them in order to trick them into making a bad decision, a decision that's bad for them. Because you're the expert and they're not, and therefore you can lead them by the nose down to some bad decision and they have to resist.
(06:03):
You got a bridle on the horse and now you're going to tug them or you're going to offer them a little carrot, or you're going to say, "If I could show you how this hay over here is three times as nutritious as this hay, would it make you want to buy hay from me for the rest of your life?" Whatever is going to happen to you. And it's happened to all of us. And so apprehension is that base state. And we've talked a little bit about this, that as professionals we have an obligation first to not faint at the sight of blood, right? If we're going to be surgeons, we can't faint the sight of blood. But we have a bigger obligation now that we've controlled our own emotions sufficient to execute, which is we've got to get in there before we start making any changes. Heart surgery doesn't start with the heart. You got to get in there.
(06:51):
Now, maybe it's some modern technique where you thread something up their toe or something like that and jam it up an artery and go, but it could be that we're going to cut down there and we're going to crack the chest open and there's going to be noise. And that's part of the job too. And it's a big part of the job. And in discovery, we have that job ahead of us. And just like when we go to the doctor, we're apprehensive. When that prospect comes to us in a discovery call, they're apprehensive that we're going to do them.
Corey Frank (07:19):
So, how do we screw that up? Between you and I, certainly you more on the ledger side than I, we've listened to hundreds of thousands of phone calls and recordings in our career. So, what are some of those patterns that me as a rep, that I'm going to screw it up right from the beginning?
Chris Beall (07:35):
Yeah. Well, you start off making the assumption that the other person is ready to confess and you start asking questions in which, if they're going to answer them honestly, that they've got to trust you a lot more than they trust you already. And even worse, even more so, you don't treat their emotional state as the most important element of the conversation. In any conversation, the other person's emotional state, if you are a professional, their emotional state is your responsibility, not theirs. You're the one who put them in a position where, in this case, they're apprehensive.
(08:11):
You need to take them as best you can or help them go someplace that's more useful to both of you emotionally. And I think that ignoring the emotions and starting right in on, "So, Corey, how big's your sales team? How many reps do you got?" Right? "How much calling do you do? What's your budget?" Oh my God. You go in for that stuff. And then of course somebody's going, "Ask open-ended questions." Those are open-ended. How big's your calling team? I mean, it's open-ended. The answer could be zero, 300 or, "I don't really feel like telling you that quite yet." And it's in fact, no matter what they say, it's, "I don't feel like telling you that. Not yet anyway."
Corey Frank (08:48):
But they showed up for the call. They showed up for this. The premises are incongruent. "I thought I was going to get X. And you, as the salesperson, are trying to feed me Y," right?
Chris Beall (09:02):
Yeah. Right. I came out of curiosity. If it was a good cold call, it was only curiosity that got me here. So, I'm curious. What am I curious about? Well, I'm not quite sure. I mean, that's what curiosity is about. If we knew the answer, we wouldn't be curious, right? So, I'm curious enough to show up and I'm hopeful that I might learn something that's of value to me. But I'm apprehensive. And it's very hard for two emotions to be inside of a person working at the same time. In fact, that's the nature of emotions. Emotions, they dominate one after another after another. They don't coexist. We can't be apprehensive and excited or joyous at the same time. We can't do that.
Chris Beall (10:33):
Emotions are funny like that, right? We can see two colors more or less at the same time, but we can't experience two emotions at the same time. So, it's fascinating to me. So, And I think there's some simple ideas and actual techniques, very similar to... You know how people got fixated on the 27 seconds thing? It's like, "Oh, it's about the opener in 27 seconds." It never been about the opener in 27 seconds. It's just anything that one could say in order to handle the second part of somebody being afraid of us and getting to that next stage.
(11:34):
And the next stage is emotional. In the cold call, we try to take somebody from fear, they're afraid of us, to trust immediately. That's the shock. The shocking thing is we can go from fear to trust like that. More fear sets us up for more trust, so to speak, because there's more fear to relieve. And there are ways to do that. In the discovery call, there are ways to do it also and they work on the same principle. The principle is emotional substitution. You as a professional are going to help this other person, help them substitute a more useful emotion. So, it can't be idiosyncratic. It's got to be a fairly universal emotion. Well, here's the universal emotion. Pride. It's totally antithetical to apprehension. It's almost the opposite of apprehension. When we're apprehensive, we pull back. And when we're proud, we come forward. And so the prospect is in a pulling back emotion when we start the conversation with them.
(12:38):
So, what can we do to get them to express pride? Well, there's a funny thing that people have as almost a universal source of pride, oddly enough, and it's where they live. And it's because they chose to live there. So, one thing you can do, and I know people will fixate on this and go, "Oh no, it's those words exactly." It's not those words exactly. But here's what I do. I just ask a simple question. First, I want to make it clear that I'm looking for help. I'm not in charge here. I'm not running the show. I'm not making things happen to somebody else. Because they're apprehensive that I'm doing that. So, I say, "Corey, it just helps me a lot to know where somebody is when I'm talking to them. I don't know. It's just a peculiarity of mine. Where are you right now on the face of our blue whirling planet?"
(13:35):
And the reason I say blue whirling planet is actually to give us a sense of togetherness. There's a classic picture that was taken from the moon of Earth, that the Earth is this blue marble hanging in space. And we all know it's spinning except for certain people who think that it's flat or something like that. But they still use GPS. They still use GPS. Why not? Believe the Earth is flat and use GPS. It's a miracle. But anyway. So, that gives us a sense of togetherness. But what I really want to do is then, I've asked for help. It wasn't an interrogation question. It was a please help me question, because this is something I need in order to be able to have a good conversation with somebody. And I want this to be a good conversation. So, I just ask that question. And then it's like, "Where are you?" And it's very different from, "So, where do you live?"
Corey Frank (14:29):
For sure.
Chris Beall (14:30):
It's very different. So, where are you right now? Now, most of the time they're in their home. Some of the time they're on the road. That could be. But in any case, they're probably where they want to be unless you're having discovery calls with people in prison or something like that. And I think that's unusual. There's not a lot of buy-side activity in the B2B world going on. [inaudible 00:14:53]-
Corey Frank (14:53):
Not a lot of TAM. Not a big TAM there.
Chris Beall (14:56):
No. So, sadly there is a big Tam. But anyway, let's leave that Tam alone. But what you get is an opportunity, a very low-cost opportunity, for the other person to replace their apprehension with pride of place. And pride of place has a wonderful quality. And that is, it's not personal, but it is about the person. It's associated with the person. But none of us actually created the city that we're living in or the place we're living in or created our neighborhood unless we have big real estate development chops or something like that. So, most of us, we have various feelings about where we live, but when we're talking to a stranger, the feeling that comes out as pride. And I'll let somebody talk out of a 30-minute meeting for 27 minutes about where they live.
Corey Frank (15:54):
Right, right. So, that's the key, is to acknowledge, understand that their state is apprehension, and making them feel at ease as much as possible. Because if I want the deep confessions, the ones that will drive my traditional discovery, my BANT, if you will, to determine if they're part of a POC or is there any there there, I need to address that. And if I don't, what happens typically?
Chris Beall (16:24):
If I don't, I get a very confusing conversation, which is oppositional. I ask questions and they try to avoid answering them. And they might answer them in a halfway kind of fashion. The answers to my questions are irrelevant. That is, I'm an expert at what I offer. They're the expert of their problem. Whatever their problem is, is deeply theirs. It's peculiar, to use my mother's favorite word. It's peculiar to their situation. It's about things they know about that I don't know about. And until they're ready to share those other things that they know about that I don't know about, we actually can't explore. I mean, I'll call this real B2B. So, say you're selling coffee beans or whatever. Maybe it's easier. I don't know. I've never sold stuff like that. I've sold complicated products like Fuller Brush, spider spray, you know how it goes, right? So, we have to accept their world is deep and rich and not about us, right?
(17:25):
It's deep. It has all sorts of things going on. There's all sorts of constraints, situations. There's timing. There's how are they already solving the problem that you would like to help them solve in a different way. All that stuff's at play. And if we just skip this emotional transition to something else, and I like pride of place, and then I go from pride to place, by the way, my next question is to pride of mission. Because then we're at the heart of it. Because everything they're doing in their job has to do with the mission of their company. They don't think about it like that, but why do they keep that job instead of going to some other job? You don't talk to a lot of people who are basically iron shackles got to work at company X, Y, Z. They're making a daily choice, especially now.
(18:14):
I mean, now as Helen Fanucci's new book coming out, Love Your Team, says, "Your top talent can walk out the door without taking a single step." So, it's a different world now. You're dealing with somebody who's there because they want to be there. So, what's that attachment to mission? And there's a personal element. You don't make it personal. It's like, "What do you do that's so great?" But what I like to ask is the simple question. And again, it's a help me out question. So, I always try to understand somebody's business as best I can before talking with them, because it seems like a good thing to do. I go to the website and I read and I think, and then I always get it wrong. Always. 100% of the time. I like to ask this question, which is, "When everything goes right, when everything's fantastic..." Remember, we're trying to get to problems, right? So, I don't want to go anywhere near the problems quite yet because the problems are live wires. You could get hurt down there, right?
Corey Frank (19:18):
Sure.
Chris Beall (19:18):
So, I want to stay in a safe zone for the moment, which is to remind somebody, why do we all do what we do? Deming said, "We work for pride of workmanship." Who do we work with and where do we work? We work to do good. I mean, that's kind of it. If we thought it was bad, we probably wouldn't do it. If it was evil, maybe some people are like that and we sometimes run into them. But in general, most people are in tune with what their company does. They think it's a good thing.
(19:45):
So, I just ask, "When everything goes right, when everything goes right, when the customer's the right customer and the solution's the right solution, the budget is there, the timing is right, all of the support people and people on both sides do the right things, everything clicks, how does your company or your product change your customer's life?" And I'm really specific. It's changed your customer's life. That other person's life. It's not, "Did it make a buck? Did it add shareholder value? Did it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" It's about somebody's life. And there's a little reminder there that I've never had somebody fail to answer that question. Ever. They always answer. It's almost like, "Huh. Wow. Yeah, we do something cool here."
----more----
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Corey and Chris agree on the importance of building trust before anything else can happen. They are joined by Transformational Coach Jennifer Standish, Henry Wodjdyla, Founder and Principal at RealSource Group, Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations at Kaiser Compressors, and hosts Ty Crandall on the Business Credit and Finance Show, Jeff Lerner from Ep 150 of Millionaire Secrets, and David Dulaney on the Sales Development Podcast. The full episodes to the ones included here are listed below:
EP91: Borrowing from the Best
EP109: Being There for Your Customers
EP123: Hire Yourself a Grandma
The Business Credit and Financing Show
Sales Development Podcast https://www.spreaker.com/user/9196584/episode-164-done
MILLIONAIRE SECRET #150 Unlock Your Potential with Jeff Lerner
These sales experts agree, that there is more than one approach to a successful sales campaign. We're sure Chris Beall has some dark childhood story about alternate ways of skinning a cat, although he's never done it, of course. These discussions include modifications and redirections in the buying cycle, even though the basics are still there: awareness, consideration and decision. Join Corey and Chris in this episode of snippets from episodes about the buying cycle. This features Oren Klaff, Jason Beck, Gerhard Gschwandtner, Susan Finch, Dan McClain, Brad Ferguson, and our own Chris Beall and Corey Frank. To hear the entire episodes features, visit this collection:
https://marketdominanceguys.com/category/buying-cycle/
Sales methodologies are the practical, how-to “guides” that support a sales process. These actions serve as a bridge between each step of the sales cycle by keeping both the buyer's and prospect's demands in mind. In our recent episodes with Brad Ferguson, Corey and Brad discussed the Sandler method vs. Oren Klaff's Pitch method. In this quick comparison segment, Corey explains the difference between the two methods, and when one fits better than the other. What is your method to determine which sales methodology fits your company? Have you bothered to determine which to use, or are you even using one method? That's a great place to start. Corey Frank is an expert at taking companies through this process - he's done it dozens of times. Welcome to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "SaaS Sales Methodologies - which one best fits your needs?"
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- SNAP Selling by Jill Konrath https://www.amazon.com/SNAP-Selling-Business-Frazzled-Customers/
- Trevor Hatfield's article https://www.custify.com/blog/sales-methodologies-for-saas/
- Pitch Anything by Oren Klaff https://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-Persuading
- Episodes with Oren Klaff https://marketdominanceguys.com/category/guest-oren-klaff
Getting fired from a sales job is never a surprise. If you’re not producing, you already know it. Brad Ferguson, the managing member of Scottsdale Sales Training, has been with Sandler Training for more than 27 years, and today he shares his sales hiring, onboarding, training, and coaching expertise with our podcast host, Corey Frank. Brad believes that before you let someone go from a sales job, you need to determine whether this person can sell, and you need to consider your company’s financial investment in that individual. This includes training, coaching, and certifying, as well as their salary and benefits. Brad cautions our listeners, “Don’t let the good people you have go. Spend the time getting them up to a higher level.” If they are worth keeping, make the effort to diagnose their problems and then provide the needed training, because, as the title of this Market Dominance Guys’ episode reminds us, “A Good Salesperson Is Hard to Replace.”
About Our Guest Brad Ferguson is the CEO of Best Sales Force, Inc., an Arizona-based sales development firm. He is the Senior Sandler Training Franchisee with over 25 years of experience in the Sandler Network.
In this continued “honeymoon” edition of the Market Dominance Guys, our host, Corey Frank, sits down with Brad Ferguson of Sandler Training, one of the most highly rated sales trainers on the planet. Brad, being a top franchisee of Sandler for years, personally learned his incredible questioning techniques and prospect approaches from the founder of Sandler himself, David Sandler, more than 30 years ago.
On several of the Market Dominance Guys' podcasts over the years, Chris Beall and Corey have discussed many of the modern and fresh sales methodologies being used by successful sales professionals all over the world. From Oren Klaff’s “Pitch Anything” to Andy Paul’s “Sell Without Selling Out” to Chris Voss’ “Never Split The Difference,” there are many different flavors of sales methodologies that can be used to generate trust that result in more consistent sales success.
If you’re a pilot, you file a solid flight plan and know where you are going before you start the engines. You may change course due to bumpy weather, but you still know your final destination. If you are an architect, you know what type of building you are constructing. You have a blueprint. But if you are in sales today and you are still “winging it” and letting your personality alone dictate how your sales conversations progress, you fall into the trap of being labeled a “mere tourist” and continuing to wander inconsistently in this profession. As Uncle Zig once said, “Selling is the highest-paid hard work and the lowest-paid easy work there is.” Using a sales methodology makes the hard work easier.
In this episode, have your pen and pad ready as Brad shares several tactical and specific use cases where the Sandler methodology can be employed on your calls today. He discusses many traditional “mental hang-ups” and speed bumps that impede success from an emotional point of view. From being uncomfortable about money to having a high need for approval and an aversion to the word “no,” Brad shares just some of the powerful Sandler techniques that have generated hundreds of millions of dollars in closed deals. This is the Market Dominance Guys' nearly indispensable podcast, and today’s episode is entitled, “If I Could Show You a Way.”
In this continued “honeymoon” edition of the Market Dominance Guys, our host, Corey Frank, sits down with Brad Ferguson of Sandler Training, one of the most highly rated sales trainers on the planet. Brad, being a top franchisee of Sandler for years, personally learned his incredible questioning techniques and prospect approaches from the founder of Sandler himself, David Sandler, more than 30 years ago.
On several of the Market Dominance Guys' podcasts over the years, Chris Beall and Corey have discussed many of the modern and fresh sales methodologies being used by successful sales professionals all over the world. From Oren Klaff’s “Pitch Anything” to Andy Paul’s “Sell Without Selling Out” to Chris Voss’ “Never Split The Difference,” there are many different flavors of sales methodologies that can be used to generate trust that result in more consistent sales success.
If you’re a pilot, you file a solid flight plan and know where you are going before you start the engines. You may change course due to bumpy weather, but you still know your final destination. If you are an architect, you know what type of building you are constructing. You have a blueprint. But if you are in sales today and you are still “winging it” and letting your personality alone dictate how your sales conversations progress, you fall into the trap of being labeled a “mere tourist” and continuing to wander inconsistently in this profession. As Uncle Zig once said, “Selling is the highest-paid hard work and the lowest-paid easy work there is.” Using a sales methodology makes the hard work easier.
In this episode, have your pen and pad ready as Brad shares several tactical and specific use cases where the Sandler methodology can be employed on your calls today. He discusses many traditional “mental hang-ups” and speed bumps that impede success from an emotional point of view. From being uncomfortable about money to having a high need for approval and an aversion to the word “no,” Brad shares just some of the powerful Sandler techniques that have generated hundreds of millions of dollars in closed deals. This is the Market Dominance Guys' nearly indispensable podcast, and today’s episode is entitled, “If I Could Show You a Way.”
In this special “Honeymoon” edition episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Corey grabs some time with Robert Vera, the founding Director of the Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation & Entrepreneurship at Grand Canyon University. Robert is an incredibly well-respected innovation and start-up business expert as well as a member of the faculty of the top-rated Jerry Colangelo School of Business at Grand Canyon University. Robert breaks down his involvement in training and working with the Navy Seals over the years and how sales organizations should look to adopt some of the more “unorthodox” training processes similar to what special forces and their medics implement. Robert also chats about his first-hand experiences with the unique revenue generation practice and talent development mission of the Branch49 team and how businesses should view Top of Funnel and Discovery.
This is the Market Dominance Guys' nearly indispensable podcast and today’s episode is entitled, “Save the Goat!”
About Our Guest
Robert Vera is a bestselling author and the founding director of Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.
How many cold-call opportunities have you wasted by pushing hard and fast to sell your company’s product? Today’s podcast guest, Bruce Lewolt, Founder of both JoyAI and Blast Learning, talks about a more caring and effective approach to selling. It starts with switching the goal of that initial call from selling your company’s product to offering prospects a helping hand with a problem or goal they have. Imagine for a moment you’re the prospect, and you’ve just been ambushed by a cold call: Who would you be willing to set an appointment with for a discovery meeting? A person blatantly trying to make a sale? Or a caring professional who understands your business’ needs and wants? In this episode, our three well-reasoned and insightful sales professionals share many insights with our listeners about making a successful cold call, but the one you don’t want to miss is this “aha!” moment. Your job is not selling your company’s product: Your job is selling a discovery meeting. That should make the title of this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast very clear: You’re still selling something, but “Your Product Is the Meeting.”
Listen to Bruce Lewolt's previous episodes in this series:
EP137: What Do Your Prospects Really Hear? Ep138: Don’t Get Lost in Your Rock ’n’ Roll More episodes on the topic of Believing in the Meeting are here.
About Our Guest
Bruce Lewolt is Founder of Blast Learning, a service that uses Alexa or Google Assistant as an intelligent personal study assistant, resulting in a state-of-the-art study method that is not just effective but makes learning enjoyable. (See BlastLearning.com and BlastStudy.com) He is also the Founder of JOYai, the first emotionally intelligent and sales-savvy artificial intelligence system for salespeople, bringing intelligent automation to prospecting and selling.
Training and coaching are essential for the rookie cold caller, and that’s an important part of the life work of today’s guest, Bruce Lewolt, Founder of both JoyAI and Blast Learning. But, as our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, remind our podcast listeners, even the most experienced and successful cold callers also need coaching from time to time. They can suffer from an inadvertent tendency to drift away from the prescribed plan — the script, tonality, and emotion that they’ve been trained to use — one that generally elicits a prospect’s response of “Sure! Tell me why you’re calling.” Bruce agrees and says that sales directors need to listen to calls and give feedback and coaching to all salespeople on a consistent basis, because it’s human nature to drift away from what you’re taught to say and start doing what feels easier or more comfortable, or putting your own cool, personal stamp on it because that’s the way you roll. It’s not your call to make, so note the caution in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ title and “Don’t Get Lost in Your Rock ‘n’ Roll” and drift away.
About Our Guest
Bruce Lewolt is Founder of Blast Learning, a service that uses Alexa or Google Assistant as an intelligent personal study assistant, resulting in a state-of-the-art study method that is not just effective but makes learning enjoyable. (See BlastLearning.com and BlastStudy.com) He is also the Founder of JOYai, the first emotionally intelligent and sales-savvy artificial intelligence system for salespeople, bringing intelligent automation to prospecting and selling.
How do you produce the emotional reaction that you want in those you are cold calling? Bruce Lewolt, Founder of both JoyAI and Blast Learning, has devoted himself to discovering the answer to this question. Bruce joins our Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, to explain how even the most carefully worded message and well-meaning tone and pacing don’t always have the emotional significance to your prospect that you had hoped they would. “When your prospect is only half-listening, what do they hear?” Bruce asks. Ah, that’s the question! These three experienced and dynamic cold callers each share their well-thought-out theories on how to communicate authenticity, spark curiosity, and offer intrinsic value that will elicit the kind of response from your prospect that will lead to setting a meeting. Here at Market Dominance Guys, we are devoted to helping you answer the tough sales questions, like this one: “What Do Your Prospects Really Hear?”
About Our Guest
Bruce Lewolt is Founder of Blast Learning, a service that uses Alexa or Google Assistant as an intelligent personal study assistant, resulting in a state-of-the-art study method that is not just effective but makes learning enjoyable. (See BlastLearning.com and BlastStudy.com) He is also the Founder of JOYai, the first emotionally intelligent and sales-savvy artificial intelligence system for salespeople, bringing intelligent automation to prospecting and selling.
What’s the reason customers bought from you and will buy from you again? Don’t know? Look to the end of your buyer’s journey — to the team that helps customers successfully use their purchase. That’s the advice of Ed Porter, fractional Chief Revenue Officer of Blue Chip CRO and today’s Market Dominance Guys’ guest. In this third of three conversations with our podcast’s hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, Ed suggests that you find out what’s working for customers, then take that information back to marketing to finetune the value description of your product so that it matches what customers are reporting. That’s the way to successfully sell your product: Start with the end in mind and work backward to inform marketing strategies and sales messaging. If you didn’t think that customer success had anything to do with selling, it’s time to reconsider, as today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode’s title says, “What Customer Success Can Do for You.”
Listen to the previous two episodes with Ed Porter.
About Our Guest
Ed Porter is a fractional Chief Revenue Officer for Blue Chip CRO, providing coaching and strategy planning services for executives and startups, and helping them rethink and refocus revenue strategies to accelerate growth. He assists his clients in aligning their revenue teams — marketing, sales, enablement, and customer success — to build accountability at every step of their organization, leading to accelerated and sustainable growth. Ed is also an investor and advisor to startups in the Columbus area.
Whether you’re new to sales or a seasoned cold caller, you no doubt have a go-to way of starting a phone conversation with a prospect. Excellent! But how’s that working for you? Ed Porter, the fractional Chief Revenue Officer of Blue Chip CRO and our Market Dominance Guys’ guest, talks today about scripts, pattern-interrupts, and the art of conversation with our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank. As Chris points out, that first conversation is an ambush call, and nobody likes to be ambushed, especially by an invisible stranger. Ed totally agrees and adds that “Fear prevents us from picking up the phone” — which is true whether you’re the salesperson or the prospect. So, what can generally get both the caller and the prospect past that fear? A well-constructed cold-calling script, but not necessarily one that a salesperson makes up on their own. Ed says it’s got to be architected from a sound plan that includes expertise and advice from both the marketing and customer success teams, which is why we’ve titled today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Architecture of a First Conversation.”
Listen to his previous episode: EP134 - Is sales the real problem?
About Our Guest
Ed Porter is a fractional Chief Revenue Officer for Blue Chip CRO, providing coaching and strategy planning services for executives and startups, and helping them rethink and refocus revenue strategies to accelerate growth. He assists his clients in aligning their revenue teams — marketing, sales, enablement, and customer success — to build accountability at every step of their organization, leading to accelerated and sustainable growth. Ed is also an investor and advisor to startups in the Columbus area.
If a company isn’t experiencing success, the finger of blame is usually pointed at the sales department. Ed Porter, the fractional Chief Revenue Officer of Blue Chip CRO, is here to say that it ain’t necessarily so. Ed joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, on today’s podcast to talk about his experience in helping companies ferret out the real culprits — and it’s not always the sales reps. In exploring the problem with his own customers, Ed has discovered that marketing and customer success are often the departments that need some repair or fine-tuning. He wholeheartedly agrees with one of Chris’ maxims: In a cold call, “technology amplifies ‘suck’,” which is what you’ll see if there’s a technology-provided increase in your cold-calling speed but there’s no company alignment of messaging, training, coaching, and follow-up. So, take Ed’s advice for business trouble-shooting and ask yourself the question posed by today’s Market Dominance Guys’ title, “Is Sales the Real Problem?”
About Our Guest
Ed Porter is a fractional Chief Revenue Officer for Blue Chip CRO, providing coaching and strategy planning services for executives and startups, and helping them rethink and refocus revenue strategies to accelerate growth. He assists his clients in aligning their revenue teams — marketing, sales, enablement, and customer success — to build accountability at every step of their organization, leading to accelerated and sustainable growth. Ed is also an investor and advisor to startups in the Columbus area.
Connect with Ed Porter on LinkedIn
How often do salespeople need to be trained? Most people would say, “Once during onboarding should do it.” “Not so,” says Dan McClain, Sales Director at ConnectAndSell. As today’s guest on Market Dominance Guys, Dan talks with our host, Chris Beall, about the importance of periodically sharpening sales reps’ skills. In this second of their two-part conversation, these two sales guys, both amateur chefs, agree that knives work better when they’ve recently been sharpened — and sales reps work better when their selling skills have recently been sharpened. Dan reminds our podcast audience that, over time, all sales reps drift from their company’s established message, their pace may become rushed, or their tone lackluster. For these very reasons, ConnectAndSell’s own reps go through a periodic blitz-and-coach cold-calling session, an essential tool of ConnectAndSell’s Flight School, because, as Dan says, “We all need to get better.” And because this essential advice bears repeating, that’s what we’ve named today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode: “We All Need to Get Better.”
About Our Guest Dan McClain is Sales Director at ConnectAndSell. His life-long dedication to sales has led him to his current goal: helping sales leaders, teams, and individuals connect with their targets at a velocity of 10X by using ConnectAndSell Lightning. Dan is based in the San Diego area and is active in his local chapter of AA-ISP.
Full episode transcript below:
Dan McClain (01:30):
It's really easy to go hire someone. It's really hard to go buy, ConnectAndSell. Even when you put a mathematical equation in front of them saying, "We could double the output of what you're doing and actually you'll spend less money." It's still hard.
Chris Beall (01:45):
Yeah.
Dan McClain (01:45):
It seems like a no brainer. It seems like this would be such an easy job.
Chris Beall (01:50):
Well, part of it also is this program is a little bit funny, because Cory Frank came to me and said he wanted to get a book out on the [inaudible 00:01:58] market dominance. Well, a book on market dominance is fundamentally only interesting to owners of different kinds. Whether an owner is an investor in a business or the owner is the owner or the owner is a CEO. CEOs are often pretty... I can tell you from experience pretty aligned with their company. There's a problem called the agency problem, right? You have somebody else doing something for you, but they've got to look out for themselves. And so the question is-
Dan McClain (02:24):
Why wouldn't you include a VP of sales in that grouping of people that would be interested in market domination?
Chris Beall (02:29):
Well, because here's the thing, a VP of sales, like our VP of sales, Jonti McLaren, highly aligned, right? He's a big cash investor in the company. And so it's easy. And he owns enough of the company that he's naturally aligned. And this is true in certain kinds of startups where they're still in startup mode, so to speak, where maybe the VP of sales is with the founder.
Chris Beall (02:52):
They're a founder of themselves and they got that ownership mentality. But I think we have a little bit of a vicious cycle going on where folks don't know quite how to drive organic growth. They're guessing, "Should we do ABM? Should we do this? Should we prospecting hard on social media? Is it a prospecting problem or a closing problem?" It's hard to tell, right? It's not obvious what you're going to do. And then how fast is it going to kick in?
Chris Beall (03:18):
Right. If I say I got a seven month sales cycle, eight month sales cycle. So I've got 17 months of average tenure. So wait a minute. If I'm past month four, I'm down to the point where I got to start to see results somebody else cares about three months before I'm likely to get kicked out of here because I didn't produce the numbers. There's kind of a short term attitude on the part of ownership often.
Chris Beall (03:43):
I'll call it ownership, regarding the sales function, where they treat sales as an externality. Like sales is something you graphed onto the company. And I've said it on this show, sales traditionally was used to dispose of inventory. The factories created, dispose of it as sufficient profit to keep the lights on and maybe give you a net profit that you can use in order to grow the business, right? That's how capitalism works.
Chris Beall (04:06):
You put capital in to buy plant and equipment. You make stuff, the widgets are being made. Well, the widgets must be sold. And what was the tradition? Put a rep in a territory, give them a quota, give them a fair amount of autonomy. There wasn't much management required. And then it's great, they get to keep the territory and maybe get a better territory.
Chris Beall (04:32):
If it doesn't work out, you put another rep in. And meanwhile you're telling more stories about how great you were back in the day, so you have something to do management wise. So I think that role doesn't make sense in the world of at least software. And the world is becoming software, because you don't have widgets anymore. How many units of ConnectAndSell software... And we even have people in the loop, get turned out yesterday that you and your team have got to dispose of at a profit.
Chris Beall (05:02):
None. There's no units, right? We didn't make a bunch of widgets that are piled up in a warehouse somewhere. So I think sales was treated as an externality because it worked as an externality. Now we're asking sales to do a strategic job, which is to take us into markets like your first job. And the question is, "Well, is the alignment right?" Is the long term relationship there going into markets doesn't happen overnight. So I think we have some issues around kind of how the sales function is conceived of. And then we say, "Hey, you do your job with head count. Marketing, do their job with money and imagination." And I don't think that's right anymore either. That's my feel anyway. I think sales is one who needs the money and the imagination.
Dan McClain (05:51):
Yeah. That's true. Interesting.
Chris Beall (05:55):
Yeah. I it's the stuff that we think about it a lot. Right? Because we're sort of on this spear tip of what we believe, which is the conversations first move the business. But I want to go to a success story that you and I experienced a little bit together and see what your thoughts are about it. There's an Israeli cybersecurity company selling the hospitals. And they have three SDRs and some people think SDRs are great. Some people think SDRs are like, "What do they do with SDRs?" By the way, you probably enjoy the meetings that are SDR set for you. Right?
Dan McClain (06:27):
Oh I love them.
Chris Beall (06:28):
And they're pretty good. You get good reviews. Because people tell you, "Hey that Sal or Crystal or whoever..."
Dan McClain (06:36):
Yeah. Quite often, Hey, the reason I took this meeting is they were persistent. They were professional. They just really handled the conversation nicely. Often that's a big part of it.
Chris Beall (06:48):
So you get meetings there, but you're your own SDR. Right? And you're a student of the game, you're student in the craft, I've been known to call you and mention that you may have drifted a little bit on a conversation and you take it with curiosity right after you [inaudible 00:07:02].
Dan McClain (07:02):
I'll never forget that call. I was standing right out there in my backyard, right by the Palm tree. When you called me and said that. I said, "No, I'm not drifting. I've got this. I'm not drifting." You told me to go listen to a call. I went and listened to a call and I was like, "Ah, he was right." Called you back, "Chris. You're right."
Chris Beall (07:23):
I thought that was an interesting conversation. I was driving across the Sierras with a load of stuff from my house. I was moving to Reno and I'm listening to this conversation I'm going, "Is that Dan? That doesn't... That doesn't... That sounds like somebody else. What is he saying? Why is he saying it?" It was pretty interesting. Let's talk about that for a moment though. Because it's really interesting this whole, so here's this company that you were working with and they had unusual SDR team. Right? Their minimum age was, I don't know, 50 something.
Dan McClain (07:55):
They looked like me.
Chris Beall (07:56):
Just like, yeah. I'm older than you are. The oldest one was I think in the maybe pushing seventies, maybe.
Dan McClain (08:03):
Maybe low seventies. Yeah.
Chris Beall (08:05):
Low seventies. And they went to Flight School. Now, these are highly experienced people. I knew you were in the deal. I wasn't in the deal. I knew somebody at the company. So I was kind of peripherally associated with it. First of all, why would somebody with all that experience in your mind go to Flight School? Why'd they do that? I mean, I know it's what we offered them but they could have said, "Nah, let's not do that." And do you remember, just walk us through that? You've got these folks, they were good. Right? They were converting it-
Dan McClain (08:34):
Yeah, [inaudible 00:08:35]. They converted highly even on the test drive. And it was interesting because in that negotiation, that we were looking at, "Okay, how are we going to use this?" We thought "It looks like they were going to buy big." And then interestingly enough, they actually came back and they bought really small. But buying small, just allowed us to come in and go through this flight school motion and show them the art of the possibility. And we took them from really good to great. And that's one of those customers where every week when I just log in and peek on what they're doing, puts a smile on my face.
Chris Beall (09:17):
Yeah. And it's such a non-obvious play. We had somebody on the other day on the show, Jennifer Standish and Jennifer makes the claim that we should be hiring grandmas to be SDRs, because they've got the voice and they know how to tell people what to do in a way that makes them do it, but not feel bad. That's kind of interesting when you think about that insistence close, right? The Cheryl Turner insistence close, it kind of has to do with telling somebody what to do and having to feel good about it. Right?
Dan McClain (09:48):
Yeah. So interesting. I've been leaning on you with some help, some different customers and you keep telling that story. And then it got in my head and I kept thinking about it and then I was doing some prospecting and it was a really interesting call because I got the guy at the right time because he said, "I'm currently looking for sales amplification." is what he said. We got that. That's what we do. And he goes, "Can you just send me something? So because I'm looking at all kinds, just send me something," I said, "Tell you what, I send you half a page.
Dan McClain (10:22):
And then also just I'll go ahead and send you the calendar invite for Thursday and we'll move it if we have to." That's the Cheryl Turner insistence close. And the guy said, "Perfect, I'll give you 15 minutes." I said, "Great. That's all I need." And then after that call, I hung up the phone. I called you to tell you about that experience. And then based on your recommendation, I called and I was talking to Cheryl about it. And then I went off and listened to some of her calls. And some of the stuff that she does, it's so subtle, but just there's so much genius in what she's doing.
Chris Beall (11:03):
Yeah. I think this is funny. I have an analogy. Corey and I have used on this. You're probably the only guy other than Corey who can speak to it actually, because you actually can't get me up even on a standup paddle board. My back is tight and it's hard to do. You surf. You're like a real surfer. Right? But my claim is I used to watch a lot of surfing and you know, I'm a physicist by background.
Chris Beall (11:23):
So I kind of, I don't know, picture maybe a little bit of what's going on and that interaction between the water, the board and the person. Where they are, what they're doing, how they're moving and all that kind of stuff. And my claim is, and this is a hard claim, not a soft claim. I don't think this is a fluffy analogy. The best analogy I've been able to come up with is this. In that ambush call, that one and only.
Chris Beall (11:49):
The only time you're ever going to talk to somebody for the first time. That script is like a surfboard and your voice is the surfer. Your voice is where the artistry comes from. And what you feel when... And you can speak to this. And I want you to actually speak to it. Tell us a little something about what it's like to surf and what it's like to surf, big stuff, scary stuff, hard stuff, whatever it is you've done. But when you're doing something like surfing, you're feeling the world that you're in and you're feeling it millisecond by millisecond and you're adjusting to it.
Chris Beall (12:27):
And you're adjusting to it with a combination of balance and positioning. But it's things you know you're doing, but you don't quite know exactly how you're doing them, but you know, you learn to do them kind of thing. Right? And I think that Cheryl Turner dance that she does with people where the words are the same, the surfboard's the same surfboard, but the conversation is always unique. It always has for a voice in it.
Dan McClain (12:53):
That the conversation is always unique, because there's another thing that you have to bring into this analogy used and that's the wave or the water itself.
Dan McClain (13:53):
It's always changing. Even if you surf the exact same place every day and it's dictated by the sand underneath the water, because that's always moving. That's fluid. So every single day, the shape of the wave's going to be different. The speed is going to be different based on maybe some storm in Australia or Japan. So even at the same exact place, every single day, that's different.
Dan McClain (14:17):
So just like the conversation or the person you're talking to is going to be different and you have to adjust. And then there are some things that are on autopilot, as you're paddling into the wave where you put your hands on your board and you pop up. I don't think about that anymore. My body just does that. But what I'm doing is, I have to decide what angle I'm paddling into the wave based on the speed of it, the size of it and the shape of it. And that's always different. And I know that I have to only look forward at what the wave's doing, because if you look behind you, it looks too big and scary.
Chris Beall (14:54):
Oh interesting.
Dan McClain (14:55):
Then you'll pedal backwards and get out of it. But when you're charging into there's so many factors that are constantly changing. So it's not like skiing or snowboarding. I mean the movements might be the same, but that medium, that you're on, you can look ahead and you know what it is.
Chris Beall (15:16):
Yeah.
Dan McClain (15:17):
And it's only vast experience to know, to be able to look ahead and know what it's going to do. And what's interesting is it's different every day.
Chris Beall (15:27):
Yeah. And you're a little different every day too. So one of the points of that, and I remember talking to Corey about it, I was trotting around and it was actually the day I saw that boat that I got behind me. I was trotting around in Sydney, Australia. And I was on the phone with Corey and we're talking about this surfboard, surfer analogy, which now you've added the wave to. And one of my points is, look, if you're learning to surf, nobody throws you like an old door and says, make yourself a surfboard. Right? I mean, it's the shaping of boards is an art and science that's come to us through what's 70, 80, 90 years of people having experience with the shapes, the materials, the thinning, all that kind of stuff. You'd [inaudible 00:16:16].
Dan McClain (16:15):
Yeah. And it's still evolving to this day.
Chris Beall (16:18):
Yeah. And you'd be an idiot as a young surfer to think you're going to reinvent making surfboards before you even know how to surf. And yet, we ask young SDRs to make their own scripts.
Dan McClain (16:31):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:31):
And I think that's crazy. I mean, do you think that's crazy?
Dan McClain (16:37):
I think that's crazy town. Why would you put the tip of this spear, the message that's going out about the company, into someone's hands that's probably only been there X number of months. It's that simple.
Chris Beall (16:54):
Yeah. Well just, I mean, I am willing to bet there are people who shape boards who are really good at shaping boards, making a surfboard that really works well, who are not themselves, the greatest surfers in the world.
Dan McClain (17:07):
True. They probably look like you or I.
Chris Beall (17:11):
Yeah. Well more like you, because we get to me and we're off the surfing category and we're into the can't stand up at the paddle board category. But I think it's quite fascinating if this analogy... I think this is a legit analogy. I think this analogy maps, as they say in the world of math, one to one and onto. Every part of it maps to the other part is supposed to map to, and you can reason from it. Right? And if you believe it, you would say, "Well, I would never have a rep make up their own script."
Chris Beall (17:42):
I wouldn't do it, because what are the odds they're going to make one based on 50, 60 years of experience across not themselves, but I think of that board shaper, they're not just taking their own experience, they're taking the experience of everybody who's ever made a surfboard. And they're putting it into the next one. Whereas when you get on that board on a wave, you're taking your experience, you're making it more subtle, more effective in time. You're a little quicker to do the thing that needs to be done to be the place you want to be to get the thing done, than you want to do than you were a year ago, two years ago, 15 years ago, whatever it happens to be.
Dan McClain (18:20):
They should not even be in that loop of communication. They should have it given to them. Then they should be trained on it.
Chris Beall (18:26):
Yeah. I agree. If you wanted me to surf you better give me a board.
Dan McClain (18:30):
What's so interesting is go on LinkedIn and look at this subject there will be hundreds of different opinions.
Chris Beall (18:40):
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh you mean the subject of should reps make up their own script? I know what the argument is for it. Well, they got to be comfortable and you know what-
Dan McClain (18:50):
I don't people think that, but really they don't. No one cares about that they shouldn't or people do. Should you really care about their comfort or the comfort and experience of that person that they're talking to? That's what's important.
Chris Beall (19:03):
Yeah. I mean, I've said it before, if you're an SDR... And by the way, if you're an account executive and you're calling for yourself, like Dan does, you're an SDR at that point. [inaudible 00:19:13]. You're not magically skilled in first conversations just because you're capable of closing multimillion dollar deals. That doesn't translate. It's like the fact that I can do all sorts of... I can load the car up. You can get all the gear in it. I can drive it to the beach. Look at all my skills. Well, at some point you're going to have to get on that damn board, right?
Dan McClain (19:36):
Yeah. Absolutely. And that's uncomfortable. So is having a script just put in your hand and told that what you're going to say. That's uncomfortable. I do things every day that to me feel uncomfortable, but I may be old enough to know it's not about me. And we always joke about this. Nobody cares about my feelings.
Chris Beall (19:58):
You always say that about me, that I don't care about your feelings. I don't, but I care about your wellbeing.
Dan McClain (20:04):
There we go. Yeah. And I get it and it's awesome.
Chris Beall (20:07):
It's, it's a funny thing. Well, for folks that are managing teams out there and that's who you're mostly working with, is people who are managing teams and you see there are struggles, even once they have ConnectAndSell in the hands of the team. And you have resources you can draw on. You can draw on Donny Crawford and his team. There are conversation optimization folks and they'll come in. I think we just did something today, right? Didn't we do something with a flight school session with a-
Dan McClain (20:36):
We did. Actually had two going on today. One that Gavin was running and then one with the transportation company that you've been helping me with. It was me and a newer to them director of business development and he runs the team. And it was such an exciting day, because we had made some tweaks to the messaging that simplified and that the reps actually felt good about. They felt good about, I felt good about it. We ran it. And in a very short amount of time, we had two meetings on the books.
Dan McClain (21:09):
And what was even more exciting was I saw that sales leader turn the corner on. This was the first time he was critiquing the reps, telling them what to do. And it was one of those calls where I was actually dreading it, because I didn't think it was going to go well. And four or five times during that call, I got the chills. The hair on my arm was standing up, because it was exciting. And he and I were in there together figuring things out and everyone on that team I think left excited about what we were all doing together.
Chris Beall (21:49):
That's fantastic.
Dan McClain (21:50):
This quest of market domination. It was awesome.
Chris Beall (21:54):
Well, I know that those guys are very serious about market dominance. They really are. And that's, as we say, we curate dominance here. ConnectAndSell is such a delight. I mean, how many people get to say this in a sales job that you're doing something. whereas part of the job, every once in a while, you know the hair does stand up on your arms, you get those chills. I was talking to Elena Hesse the other day and she was on the show.
Chris Beall (22:18):
And she said to me, first time we talked, she said, "I have tears in my eyes." I said, "I do too." We're two grown people out here listening to these reps, move forward in a way that's so exciting. They're having so much fun and they're doing so much business. And it's right here in front of us. There is something about watching the world evolve at full speed right in front of your eyes. It's just kind of professionally unusual I guess I'll put it. It's like who gets to have this kind of fun?
Dan McClain (22:49):
Yeah, no, it's true. It was such a great day. And it was just one of those things that just invigorated me that will probably last a month. So I'm going to need another one of those sometime within the next month. It was just awesome.
Chris Beall (23:03):
More flight schools. Well, I have to say you've been here a long time. What are your thoughts? Some people kind of thought flight school was crazy. We're not in the training business, plenty of people out there to train reps. I always thought the ecosystem would take care of it. There's these incredibly strong trainers out there.
Chris Beall (23:21):
What is it you think in looking at connect and self flight school, which for those of you who don't know what it is, it's a four session blitzing coach experience for a group of reps and their manager live fire, talking to real prospects where they're under pressure as a result. And yet the coaching is not of the whole conversation. I think the first two hours we coached just the first seven seconds. And the second two hours we coach just what we call the 27 seconds, the value part.
Chris Beall (23:51):
And then the third two hours we coach just what we call turbulence. That's why it's called flight school. Take off flying somewhere. Plane goes like this, the objections that you only get in a cold call. And then the fourth sessions, how to get the meeting. How do you ask for the meeting. Landing the airplane, all we beforehand, we have this messaging workshop and a little kind of an icebreaker session.
Chris Beall (24:12):
So, that's what it is. I never thought we should have such a thing, even though I'm the guy who came up with it, sort of working with Janie Wall and James Townsend down in San Antonio at a customer... Is it a big deal to you or is it just another training thing or did you think it was a good idea when you first saw it? Or did you think like I did? It's like I came up with it, but I was still pretty skeptical about it.
Dan McClain (24:35):
Yeah. Well, like a lot of things... At first, I was uncomfortable with it til I kind of have experienced it. And then eventually we put our team through it and guess what happened? We all got better. We all learned stuff.
Chris Beall (24:47):
Wait, you guys, I remember this, we do this regularly. Like you went through flight school, but you guys have like five, six years, seven years of experience using ConnectAndSell. Why would you need to go through flight school? What did it help you do different?
Dan McClain (25:00):
No matter how good we are, A we drift, like we talked about, but you can always get better. It's about keeping that spear sharp. If we stop doing our blitz code sessions on Monday and Friday, it would be easier for me, but you know what? Would I get that coaching? Would I get a chat with Gavin or Donny or Nate? "Hey, you're doing this, try this." "Hey, I heard something."
Chris Beall (25:25):
Yeah. So you and I both cook a little bit, maybe even a lot, right? We're having wild board tonight just for you.
Dan McClain (25:31):
Oh fantastic. We're having pizzas. This has been a frustration for me. I can cook. I'm not a baker and I have one of those pizza ovens. And I've been buying the crust at the store and I'm having a problem getting the temperature of this pizza oven correctly. Because, what's happening is the top of the pizza's burning before the crust is fixed. So actually a friend of mine is a restaurateur and they're actually sitting out there having some beers. And when I'm done, we're going to go cook some pizzas together.
Chris Beall (26:03):
All right. Well I hope it works out well. I'm going to make a point, a sharp edge point, which is we both spend a fair amount of time on occasion the kitchen. I think I'm a pretty good hand with a knife taught by an ex Navy chef. Worked an aircraft carrier and you know a typical Navy chef. He didn't put up with any crap in the kitchen right? Down to, you're going to hold the knife, thumb and forefinger on the blade to stabilize the knife. You've [inaudible 00:26:28] just holding it by the handle like you're whipping a baseball bat around all that kind of stuff. He taught me everything about that stuff. And yet still to this day, I'll take a knife out of the drawer and I will lazily continue to use it when I know it's not sharp. [inaudible 00:26:49].
Dan McClain (26:48):
My friend in Texas, he has a knife sharpening business. Anytime, like if we're going on a week vacation, I send him my knives.
Chris Beall (26:55):
Oh, that's good stuff. So to me it's like that. It's like a knife can look sharp without being sharp. And it's when you go to make that cut and a ripe tomato is probably the most telling cut. Right? Because if your knife is sharp, you feel it and you feel it in that first little motion. Right? Because the knife is curved to allow you to move straight forward, but still be cutting down and you'll feel that little tug. And you go now the question's, what are you going to do? And I think that the way you guys get tuned up in flight school is a lot like that. You feel that little tug and it's easy to be lazy and not sharpen the knife.
Dan McClain (27:37):
Yeah. And it's so interesting, because if you're not sharp, a lot of meetings will slip through your fingers. Yeah. Why that happen all the time? I'm like, "I think I could have got a meeting with that person." That meeting that I got this week using the Cheryl Turner insistent close, I will be honest part of it was just right person, right time. But part of it was the way I executed something-
Chris Beall (27:58):
That has to be a lot of it. Cheryl runs 30%.
Dan McClain (28:00):
Yeah. I'm not running 30%. I'm trying to get better.
Chris Beall (28:05):
Listen to on those industrial air compressors in those medical office buildings, [inaudible 00:28:09] crazy stuff.
Dan McClain (28:10):
It is.
Chris Beall ():
But it does show it's an art form. Helen and I listened to Cheryl one day. We listened to a whole bunch of conversations. And Helen was thinking about actually cold calling the hundred VPs of one of her big monster companies that was part of her account base. Hundred VPs of HR. And she asked me, "What is this cold calling really about?" And I said, "Well, let's listen to Cheryl."
Chris Beall (28:32):
And so we were listening to Cheryl, listening to a bunch of conversations and Helen, who's a cute observer of these things, she says, those micro pivots, same words, but that little pause, that little laugh, that moment of expressed empathy that I'm with you, that expression of being a peer, always never being put back, but never pushing back either.
Chris Beall (28:58):
She said, "That stuff is amazing." She said, "I didn't realize what you guys work with is an artistic medium. And it's truly an art form." And I actually think this is something I have to say, if I could ask folks who are watching this thinking or, or listening, thinking about it, we call the use of ConnectAndSell, learning how to cold call. We call it finishing school for future CEOs.
Chris Beall (29:26):
Because the one thing you've got to be able to do to be good in the CEO job, is hold conversations without a lot of prep with strangers that go better than they would've for somebody else who might not be able to make those little moves, have that feel. That the feel for the situation and be able to help somebody see something in a new way, which is kind of your main job as CEO.
Chris Beall (29:49):
It's the main job as a salesperson. They're very similar jobs. Before you joined ConnectAndSell or no, before you used it for the first time, would you have said that you thought that cold calling or cold conversation was an art form or would you have said yes, just something you do or what would you have thought about it or did, did you not think about it?
Dan McClain (30:09):
I think at that time, knowing what I knew then, it would've been very easy to hop on the cold calling is dead bandwagon because then I wouldn't have to do it. And I could feel good about not doing it. Even, though if it's like exercise. You know you should.
Chris Beall (30:27):
Yeah.
Dan McClain (30:27):
It's hard to take that first step. But if you do not good things just might happen.
Chris Beall (30:33):
What is funny too? Because it's like exercise and that you're doing it for yourself. And yet folks will act like they're being told to do it for somebody else. You're really doing it for yourself. I mean, you really are doing it for yourself. I've looked at the numbers, our numbers break down today. This quarter, the bulk of the dollars and the bulk of the deals have come from you guys.
Chris Beall (30:54):
You account executives being your own SDRs and that's even though you have a world class SDR team armed to the teeth with a high performance weapon using it all day long setting meetings for y'all. But I have a funny feeling that when you set a meeting for yourself, that there's some subtlety in there somewhere that allows you to be a little bit better in that meeting. That you killed that boar and now you're cooking it. And I think you're going to cook it a little bit better.
Dan McClain (31:25):
Absolutely. In fact, when I schedule the meeting myself, when I send it out, I put a little asterisks in a certain spot in the invitation. So I know that's one that I scheduled and yeah, I do. I come to it, I think with a little more of everything, little more excitement, a little more aggressiveness. I'm going to be sharper, clearer because I know that this one I got.
Chris Beall (31:49):
Yeah. It's a funny thing. I think it's the most subtle thing. Let's wrap this up. Our audience is... We have people all up and down. We got SDRs who listen to Market Dominance Guys, because I guess they want to be CEOs and owners of businesses someday or chief revenue officers God what they're going to be. And then we got people kind of like, you're Henry Washala who took his whole business part, put it back together after binge listening to the show for four days.
Chris Beall (32:17):
We got a lot of folks. I know you're not a big advice giver. You probably don't give advice to people for a whole bunch of good reasons. Most of which is you're kind of too humble to think what you're going to say is going to make a difference. But I want you to get out of that humble posture for a second and just give folks listening, just one piece of advice from your career. And it has something to do with what we've been talking about. What would you tell somebody if you just had to tell them and then you got to go away.
Dan McClain (32:45):
I would say, kind of back to this whole notion of should the SDR say what's comfortable versus should you give them a script? Find out who's the most intelligent person in the room and listen to them. Usually that's someone with a C in their title, usually.
Chris Beall (33:02):
Yep. That's interesting. On that. We're going to wrap this up. Dan McClain, you have been a marvelous guest on Market Dominance Guys. I think we're going on in episode 130 something at this point. Proud to have you on. Proud to be on your team and excited looking forward to what we're all going to do together. And I just think about those companies, those people you're helping pulling the cork out of the innovation economy, letting value flow. And that's what makes a hair stand up on my arm. So thank you so much for being on the show and for being you.
Dan McClain (33:31):
Yeah. Thanks for having me. I was a little nervous. This is my first podcast. I didn't know what I was getting into. I'd love to come back anytime.
You’re no doubt familiar with the buyer’s journey, but what do you know about the seller’s journey? Dan McClain, Sales Director at ConnectAndSell and today’s guest on Market Dominance Guys, shares his personal journey as a salesperson with our host Chris Beall in this first of a two-part conversation. Starting at the beginning of his career, Dan tells the story of how he got into sales straight out of college, what his early selling experiences were like, and how he cold-called his way to where he is today. Most memorable for him was his first experience using ConnectAndSell Lightning, the cold-calling tool that boosts the number of conversations a salesperson can have with prospects. Pushing that “Go” button and being served one conversation after another changed his life and led to his current job selling Lightning at ConnectAndSell. Helping other salespeople discover this tool is now Dan’s mission. Listen in as Dan and Chris remember the details of their first meeting in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Seller Has a Journey Too.”
About Our Guest
Dan McClain is Sales Director at ConnectAndSell. His life-long dedication to sales has led him to his current goal: helping sales leaders, teams, and individuals connect with their targets at a velocity of 10X by using ConnectAndSell Lightning. Dan is based in the San Diego area and is active in his local chapter of AA-ISP.
Full episode transcript below:
Announcer (00:22):
You're no doubt familiar with the buyer's journey, but what do you know about the seller's journey? Dan McClain, Sales Director at ConnectAndSell and today's guest on Market Dominance Guys, shares his personal journey as a salesperson with our host, Chris Beall, in this first of a two-part conversation. Starting at the beginning of his career, Dan tells the story of how he got into sales straight out of college, what his early selling experiences were like, and how he cold-called his way to where he is today. Most memorable for him was his first experience using ConnectAndSell Lightning, the cool calling tool that boosts the number of conversations a salesperson can have with prospects. Pushing that go button and being served one conversation after another changed his life and led to his current job selling Lightning at ConnectAndSell. Helping other salespeople discover this tool is now Dan's mission. Listen in as Dan and Chris remember the details of their first meeting in today's Market Dominance Guy's episode, The Seller Has a Journey Too.
Chris Beall (01:24):
Hey Market Dominance folks, it's Chris Beall and I'm here without Corey Frank, which is a bit of a shock because I lean on Corey pretty hard. He always comes up with the cool questions and he's got the literary references and he's got a tie on, which is nice.
Dan McClain (01:42):
Oh.
Chris Beall (01:42):
You don't see one on me. I know Dan.
Dan McClain (01:44):
You could have worn a tie. [inaudible 00:01:46]
Chris Beall (01:46):
And instead I'm here today, not instead but normally we'd have Corey, but now I'm all by myself as a host except I've got Dan McClain. Dan McClain, among many other things that he does including things involving surfboards and riding vehicles across sandy terrain that doesn't look safe at all to me.
Dan McClain (02:06):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (02:07):
And shooting the occasional wild boar and eating them. And growing tomatoes in a way that I've never seen another human being grow tomatoes, including naming his tomato plants appropriately.
Dan McClain (02:17):
True.
Chris Beall (02:18):
So Dan is also somebody who works for ConnectAndSell. He sells for ConnectAndSell. I don't know if he properly sells, he'll describe what it's actually like I'm sure. But Dan, welcome to Market Dominance Guys.
Dan McClain (02:30):
Thanks for having me. This is my very first podcast.
Chris Beall (02:34):
Oh my God. I'm excited. No wonder you're wearing white, you're a podcast virgin.
Dan McClain (02:39):
That's right. Absolutely. [inaudible 00:02:41] And my hair too.
Chris Beall (02:42):
Fantastic. And notice that Dan has a Flight School shirt on, I got a Flight School shirt on. We are as twinsy as can be right now. So Dan, just a little background. How did you fall into the world of sales, and especially sales that involved anything resembling software? Is this like your dream when you were a child? Is it something that you got hit in the head once? I know you surf and sometimes you could hit your head surfing I bet.
Dan McClain (03:11):
It's true.
Chris Beall (03:12):
What happened?
Dan McClain (03:13):
Well, growing up I always knew I was going to be in sales. My father was in sales but, it was different back then. He was in industrial sales and he covered Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, kind of the Midwest belt, and he would drive his car around and he had an expense account and that seemed kind of cool.
Chris Beall (03:34):
Interesting.
Dan McClain (03:34):
And I'd hear him on the phone every once in a while. And I thought, "That's what I want to do".
Chris Beall (03:38):
Wow.
Dan McClain (03:38):
Well actually then college, I had to put myself through. And I learned very quickly that the traditional jobs that one can get when you're in college aren't enough to pay for college, even way back in the late '80s, early '90s. And so I had to be creative, and I actually started a couple of my own small little companies. A volleyball business, where we taught leagues and lessons and ran tournaments. And also a valet car parking business at a very cool restaurant in Minneapolis called J.D. Hoyt's. And doing that I kind of learned some entrepreneurial things.
Dan McClain (04:16):
And then towards the tail end of college, a friend of mine had a sister who married an entrepreneur that ran a company called Skyline Displays, they make trade show exhibits. And he saw what I was doing and he thought, "I'd like to hire this guy and send him off to California" to do what they called "R&D sales". Because what they used to do is they'd come up with something new, they'd release it to the field before it was ready, and then it was very expensive to make a change because it was on such a grand scale. So they thought, "Why don't we just have one person go try to sell some new stuff". And I just kind of fell into it. I moved out to California pretty much the day after I graduated from college. And that was a very interesting move. December 5th, 1995, very cold Minnesota day. I drove out to Newport Beach and it was one of the happiest days of my life.
Chris Beall (05:04):
That's what they call a selling point.
Dan McClain (05:10):
Absolutely. And when I went out there on the recruiting trip, they were very smart. They flew me into the Orange County Airport, and when you walk out of the Orange County Airport you see green grass and Palm trees. So I told myself, "I hope it's a good job because I'm taking it". And I think like most people in sales I was young, started off, struggled, and it took me a while to hit my stride to kind of figure out what I wanted to do. And then I had a roommate who was a recruiter. He goes, "Hey you're in sales, but you're kind of struggling. I got this customer that's looking for [inaudible 00:05:43] and they're a software company. Do you know anything about software"? I said, "No", but it paid more money so I took that job.
Dan McClain (05:50):
And then I was in software for 10, 15 years. And then my company did a ConnectAndSell test drive. I was one of the test subjects using the weapon and it was interesting. I didn't know what I was getting into. And when you use ConnectAndSell, turn it on, you hit that green go button. Well when it was time to hit that green go button, president of the company standing here, the VP of sales is standing here, these are big verbose gentlemen. They're like, "Turn it on"! All of a sudden my hands started shaking, my brain went blank, and I hit the go button. And the first conversation came fast, 30, 40 seconds. I don't know what I said. It wasn't intelligent or legible. The person hung up. And they yelled, "Do it again"! Did it again. Then the second conversation came fast, and it was, "Hey, yeah call me next week. I think I want to talk to you". And the third guy picks up the phone, I schedule a demo, a meeting, boss and the president leave me alone rest of the day. I think I scheduled two more meetings on my very first day and it was awesome.
Dan McClain (06:53):
And then I used almost every day. This was back in the days when people traveled, I was covering 10 states. And I was Account Executive, didn't do a whole bunch of prospecting, but I used it very specifically to call my [inaudible 00:07:07] task list and sales force. And it worked so incredibly well for me because I was calling the CIO or the VP of IT of a billion dollar company that ran SAP. And I was selling very expensive software to bolt onto that to make it run better, faster, stronger. And used it for two or three years and got to the point where every time I'd turn it on a little voice inside my head would tell me, "Dan, you should go sell ConnectAndSell". So I got to know you, called up you. I think I sent you some referrals, tried to get in somehow. I told you I wanted to join the team, we had a couple conversations over a couple months and you introduced me to Jonti McLaren, our SVP of sales. Went up and met him and been a happy member of the team now for five, almost six years. That might be more information than you're asking for, but that's how I got into sales from then up until now.
Chris Beall (07:57):
Wow. That's really good. Thank you. That was really tight. Yeah, I remember talking to you. I remember that call when you called me. I was walking down Santa Cruz Avenue, Los Gatos, California. I was just about to go to the Great Bear Coffee shop and get myself I think it was an early afternoon latte. And I think we talked for quite a while. I think we talked for quite a while actually, and I was impressed that you would call me and that you actually used ConnectAndSell. And so I was pretty sure that you were going to do something here one way or another. You know it is kind of funny how many of our really, really top people in the company are former ConnectAndSell customers and users. And so James Townsend used to use ConnectAndSell, and he also ran part of a company called Halogen and did right things there. Donny Crawford, I was just talking to Donny as our Chief Flight Instructor. He used to go in and do job interviews when he was a rep. And he'd take them all the way through and they'd make him an offer and he'd go, "Oh by the way, I'm not working for you unless you get me ConnectAndSell. That was his thing. And you know Donny pretty well, it's kind of hard to imagine him doing something like that.
Dan McClain (09:03):
Yeah. It's interesting.
Chris Beall (09:05):
He was consistent on it. It's true. A lot of people. Jonti McLaren was our SVP of Sales and Marketing. Everybody thinks that Jonti joined the company because his dad is the Exec Chairman, was the CEO back in the day. But in fact that's not why at all. Jonti built his first company on top of ConnectAndSell and he sold it and did pretty well, right? His Tesla looks better than our Subaru I guess [inaudible 00:09:28]
Dan McClain (09:28):
Yeah. And wasn't his use case a little bit different? Was he the CEO of the company or the Chief something, and he was using it to find business but also to gauge the market interest in what he had?
Chris Beall (09:40):
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me, you said your first sales job where you had a real sales job was like, "Go do it", was actually a market exploration job. And that's a pretty unusual sales job, especially for somebody whose kind of new to it. Think about it. It's like, "Why am I going to trust this new guy to go off and bring me a signal back from the market"? Somebody had a lot of faith in you. This job right now is kind of like that though, right? There's something about ConnectAndSell, you always feel like you're selling something new. Do you have any idea why that is? I mean it's kind of funny, right? Because I can describe it. I was talking to a potential investor today, and I can describe it in like two sentences and they get it. It's really hard to get business people on the phone in order to explore business to business. Right? It's just hard. ConnectAndSell lets you do that by pushing a button and waiting a few minutes, talking to somebody. That's it. That's what it does. And yet.
Dan McClain (10:28):
[inaudible 00:10:28].
Chris Beall (10:28):
And yet. It's what is the factor that you see? Because this is about market dominance, right? So we're always talking about, okay you can use a human voice to dominate a market. You go right into somebody's midbrain, right in through their ear. Email gets blocked by all sorts of things. It doesn't get to you in spam. It sits there and annoys you. If you open it, you don't read it very much but it's only got 500 bits information in it or 5,000 bits to start with. Here you are inside of somebody's head. You know when you sit at a restaurant and it's quiet and you're trying to focus on something, I don't know you're reading your email or whatever. And the person next to you is chewing in a way that's just horrible. It's just obnoxious, right? You can't turn that off.
Chris Beall (12:00):
You can't make yourself not hear it. You're stuck, right? So when you cold call somebody, cold conversation them, you're inside their brain just like that chewing, but you better be doing a better job of whatever.
Dan McClain (12:11):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:12):
Some people get it, some people don't. What is it that you see that divides the sheep from the goats? Or as we say, the pigs from the weasels?
Dan McClain (12:20):
That's interesting. And I was on a very interesting blitz and coach session with a customer today. And we were listening. I think the one really huge thing is just the confidence in the voice. Am I talking to someone right out of college that's reading whatever they're saying off this piece of paper? Or do they sound like a peer that I may want to engage with? We had one of the reps and we said, "Hey, it sounds like you're reading off the script. And you have to stress the word I believe and sound like an expert". Very next call, we're listening. He goes, "I believe". He really stressed it, like overstressed it, and you could tell he got the person's attention. And he wasn't smooth, but he at least had added confidence to his pitch. Scheduled a meeting.
Chris Beall (13:10):
That's fascinating. So how did that happen with you? I mean the first time you pushed the button, you got a president standing over one shoulder, you got a vice president standing over the other, they're yelling at you. It's like having big Matt Forbes yell at and tell you to hit the button. Which [inaudible 00:13:25] used to do [inaudible 00:13:26]
Dan McClain (13:25):
Yeah. These were intimidating guys.
Chris Beall (13:30):
So you hit the button and it was confusing at first. When in that process, you got a couple meetings that day, did you get comfortable on the first day of ambushing people?
Dan McClain (13:39):
Absolutely. I got comfortable actually after the second conversation where the guy said, "Hey, busy. Call me next week". Because I knew he was interested. I knew he actually wanted to talk to me. The challenge was it was the CIO of a billion-dollar company. And it was that moment where internally I think I switched gears. And then when I had that third conversation, I didn't feel nervous anymore. I felt confident. And then it was just a natural conversation where I didn't sound like some young person that doesn't know what they're doing so they have to read something off a piece of paper. I sounded like a peer that maybe he actually wanted to engage with. And he had also expressed interest in what we did. Company was Suncor Energy, it was the CIO and they had said, "Yeah. We want to put Redwood Software", the company I worked for, "We want to put them as a line item on a 300 million process improvement project". So in the SAP space, we were on the bill of materials. We were one line item.
Chris Beall (14:43):
Wow.
Dan McClain (14:43):
Yeah. And after that third call, I actually put my feet up on the desk and I realized that ConnectAndSell was doing the worst part of my day. Sales Force, dial, voicemail, reschedule. Sales Force, dial, talk to that mean gatekeeper, voicemail. It did all that for me.
Chris Beall (15:02):
Yeah.
Dan McClain (15:03):
[Inaudible 00:15:03].
Chris Beall (15:03):
It's interesting. So you got it like that, and now you sell it. So you get to watch people getting it or not getting it. And so you pointed out somebody sounds like they're reading because they are reading, or they haven't been coached to use their voice appropriately and they can get a little bit stuck. Do you have a point of view about the order in which things ought to happen? Like what we do today is we'll hold a test drive. And a test drive for those of you listen to this don't know what it is, it's a full day of production with ConnectAndSell.
Chris Beall (15:37):
Tony Safoian who was CEO over at SADA, I was on his podcast and I asked him, "Didn't you guys make some money during that test drive at ConnectAndSell?" And he laughed. And Billy Franz, whose his VP of Inside Sales at the time, said something along the lines of "Chris, we made tens of millions dollars pipeline that day". And that was in three hours, right? So you would kind of think, "Well, okay. No brainer. No brainer". But that's how we sell, and it works pretty well but sometimes people they won't even listen to you to take a test drive. Right?
Dan McClain (16:13):
That's true.
Chris Beall (16:13):
Have you broken that down in your mind as to why? I shouldn't say it's irrational, but we offer test drives for free. The test drive is always educational. It's always fun. I've never had one that wasn't fun. I've been associated with God knows how many of these things. 1800 of them or something like that. They're always fun. So you got something that's fun, your reps are going to like it, it's educational, it's going to reveal the truth about what they're saying.
Dan McClain (16:40):
Mm-hmm.
Chris Beall (16:40):
Oh my God. That'll be interesting. And yet folks often go, "Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't want to take that test drive". What do you think is going on inside those people? What do you do about it? If anything?
Dan McClain (16:53):
This is something that has baffled me that I've been pondering for years. I have no idea. And it's such an interesting thought, because when I came and joined the ConnectAndSell team I really thought it would be as easy as, "Hey, you're a VP of Sales? You want your people talking to 10 times more people? Let's do a free test drive. Free". I really thought it was that easy. And then when I flew up and met with you and with Jonti, we went out for sushi. It was big Matt Forbes and Sean McLaren. Sean McLaren left, and then it was just me and Matt Forbes and he goes, "Hey, listen. Hey, listen buddy. This job is not easy. It's really hard". And I thought, "Nah". He really impressed upon me how hard it would be. And then actually a day before my official start date, I came up to that... There was an AA-ISP trade show in Dallas. And I'm thinking to myself, "I know how to use ConnectAndSell. I don't really understand this whole breakthrough framework we have". But I had it printed out and I'm thinking, "I better show Chris and Jonti that I'm not afraid and I better get on and use. And I better do it in front of them". That was a little bit scary. But I think I've kind of veered from your question. I don't know the answer to that question.
Chris Beall (18:13):
I don't either. I don't either. I always think it's like somebody says, "Okay, so here's the deal. Now mind you, it's only going to be one day but we're going to fly you and the kids to Disney World. And you're going to get to spend a whole day at Disney world and you're going to get to have nice meals at the restaurants and it's going to all be nice. Unfortunately, the sad part is it's only one day and you're going to have to fly home, but at least you'll know what Disney World's like. You'll know whether you and the kids like it". Right?
Dan McClain (18:40):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (18:41):
And I bet if you made that offer to some folks they'd go, "Ah, I don't know about that. That doesn't sound quite right to me". I don't know what it is though, but it's a very similar offer I think. There's got to be something hiding in there that neither you and nor I have figured out yet.
Chris Beall (18:56):
I have a bit of a thesis. It's got two parts. One is the too good to be true thing. That's too good to be true. Well in a way, rationally, what does it matter? But I don't want to waste my time. But I think the other thing is it kind of sounds like something that could be a bit of exposure for you if you're a sales leader.
Dan McClain (19:19):
Yeah. True.
Chris Beall (19:20):
And a little bit of exposure can go a long ways if you're not comfortable with it, and a long ways in a negative direction. And that may well be. That kind of speaks to market dominance. We talk about on this show, the only safe position to be in a market is a dominant position. Otherwise, someone else by definition is in the dominant position. And if they're in the dominant position, then you're working at their discretion. They can choose whether you live or die. The dominant player can always come undercut you on price, overspend you on whatever, out raise you on capital, attract better talent, have a snowball effect from better customers who then are willing to reference other customers. You name it. There's a book called The Gorilla Game that's about this very thing.
Dan McClain (20:08):
Mm.
Chris Beall (20:09):
As Geoffrey Moore wrote it back after he wrote Crossing the Chasm. And The Gorilla Game basically says this: In innovation anyway, and tech especially, all the chips go to the dominant player. The dominant player rakes in 90 plus percent of all the profits that will ever be achieved in that category. They take them all. And everybody else kind of serves them, whether they know it or not. They can think they're competing, but they don't know.
Chris Beall (20:34):
Sometimes I wonder whether folks... I don't say want it or not, but whether it's an uncomfortable idea trying to go after that dominant position rather than, "Well, at least this is the devil I know. And I'm kind of getting along. Why rock the boat, right? Why throw the grenade? Roll it down the hall and see what happens"? Do you ever feel that, or am I just kind of in a crazy place here?
Dan McClain (21:01):
Well I always try to look at things in the most simple manner. And when I think about that, I think what is the average tenure now of a VP of Sales? Is it 11 months? Is that still?
Chris Beall (21:16):
Well it's 17 months end to end. So if you're selling to him, you're catching them eight and a half months from their departure on average.
Dan McClain (21:25):
Yeah. I think if you catch them right in the middle, they're in a good spot. But if they're too new, they're too new. They're over their head swimming. Or if they've been there and they know they're on their way out, maybe there's apathy or maybe they're concentrating on where they're going to land next. It's certainly interesting. And it's also interesting the VP of Sales today is certainly not the VP of Sales even four or five years ago.
Chris Beall (21:51):
Hmm. How's that?
Dan McClain (21:53):
From what I see, they're not in control of as much budget. Or they just don't have as much decision-making authority. I'm seeing marketing departments have more, or just the CEO being more involved in those decisions.
Chris Beall (22:07):
Got it. Well we've always said, I've always said here, one of the challenges... And this is a market dominance challenge people got to think about is, marketing has budget for money, sales has budget for heads.
Dan McClain (22:18):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (22:19):
That's the tradition. And so sales leaders, their first order of execution is to make sure they got enough heads for next year. That's your number one job, right? It's your capital source.
Dan McClain (22:30):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (22:31):
So if you're an entrepreneur, you raise money in order to have enough capital to go to market and spend what you've got to spend to get the market you want and then also have a buffer against the unknown. And I think the way a VP of Sales might think about things is, "Hey, so it's November. My big problem is making sure I don't have 62 people, but that I've got 73 people. Because that's going to be my buffer". And now when we're assigning quota and we assign straight up, when some things happen say my top person walks out on day one of the fiscal, and now I'm going to face it. Because I don't think everybody really knows this, but you're going to pay about one times quota to replace your top rep if they walk out on the first day of the fiscal. If you do the math, it's going to be about their whole quota. Million-dollar rep is going to cost you a million dollars.
Dan McClain (23:23):
Wow. That's interesting.
Chris Beall (23:24):
Helen and I were talking about it. She was talking about a hundred-million-dollar rep. Imagine them leaving on the first day of the fiscal.
Dan McClain (23:31):
Wow.
Chris Beall (23:32):
That happens, right? I mean these are big, big numbers that are crawling around here.
Dan McClain (23:35):
That can be devastating. And I can't tell you how many times in the last six months I've heard it's really easy to go hire someone, it's really hard to go buy ConnectAndSell.
“When you share your life nuggets, you don’t know when it’s going to matter to someone,” observes Elena Hesse, our Market Dominance Guys’ guest and the Vice President of Operations of Thomson Reuters’ tax and accounting professionals in this third of three podcast episodes with our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank. For the past four years, Elena has led the “NoTimeToRead Book Club” for #GirlsClub, an organization dedicated to changing the face of sales leadership by empowering more women to earn roles in management. Corey starts off the conversation by asking Elena to describe what happens in a book club that doesn’t require reading the book. “A book is just a vehicle for a conversation. You never know when something is going to resonate,” she says, as she explains how the subject matter generates ideas and experiences that club members share with each other. And just like the book club participants, Corey, Chris, and Elena share ideas and personal insights of their own, which cover everything from the sales benefits of a live conversation over an emailed message to the trust-creating habit of asking for clarification when you don’t understand something. As Chris says, “The essence of curiosity is embracing our ignorance.” So, get ready to open your mind and heart to embrace what these three experienced salespeople share with each other — and with you — about the essence of this week’s Market Dominance Guys podcast, “Why Conversations Matter.”
About Our Guest
Elena T. Hesse, Vice President, Operations – Tax & Accounting Professionals at Thomson Reuters, has been with this firm for more than 30 years. Elena is also a thought leader for #GirlsClub, leading the book club discussions to support #GirlsClub and its continuing work of changing the face of sales leadership by empowering more women to earn roles in management.
“When you go to a doctor, do you want that doctor to be excellent — or okay?” Elena Hesse, our Market Dominance Guys’ guest and the Vice President of Operations of Thomson Reuters’ tax and accounting professionals, poses this question to our podcast hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall. Their answer — and yours too, no doubt — is that they want doctors who love their job and do it extremely well. Elena, Chris, and Corey talk about how this equates to the role of the salesperson. In the old days, sales was generally a “hit and run” affair. You’d probably never see your customers again once the sale was made, so there was little reason to provide true value in a product or to develop and maintain a relationship with a customer. But in the modern world, most of us want to sell our customers an upgrade or an add-on or a renewal. So, product value and excellent customer relations are essential. In other words, if you want to be successful in sales today, our three sales experts say that it’s crucial to have skin in the game. Oh, yeh. It’s self-examination time. Evaluate your personal investment in your job as you listen to today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode. “Do You Have Skin in the Game?”
About Our Guest
Elena T. Hesse, Vice President, Operations – Tax & Accounting Professionals at Thomson Reuters, has been with this firm for more than 13 years. Elena is also a thought leader for #GirlsClub, leading the book club discussions to support #GirlsClub and its continuing work of changing the face of sales leadership by empowering more women to earn roles in management.
“If you’re not curious, you’re not going to be a good sales rep.” That’s the well-considered opinion of our Market Dominance Guys’ guest, Elena Hesse, Vice President of Operations of Thomson Reuters’ tax and accounting professionals. As a naturally curious person herself, Elena has observed that “You can’t be speaking more than you’re listening” if you’re going to learn what you need to know about your prospects and their businesses. You have to ask those insight-seeking questions and then truly pay attention to their answers in order to discover whether your product or service is a good fit for their needs. Our two podcast hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, totally agree with Elena that the best way to establish a good relationship with your sales prospect is with an inquiring mind — not a sales pitch. Curious about what else these three have to say? Listen to today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Do You Have an Inquiring Mind?”
About Our Guest
Elena T. Hesse, Vice President, Operations – Tax & Accounting Professionals at Thomson Reuters, has been with this firm for more than 13 years. Elena is also a thought leader for #GirlsClub, leading the book club discussions to support #GirlsClub and its continued work in changing the face of sales leadership by empowering more women to earn roles in management.
The triumphs, rewards, and prosperity of the customers he serves is at the heart of everything today’s Market Dominance Guys’ guest does. Meet James Townsend, Vice President of Customer Success and Growth at ConnectAndSell, as he discusses with our host, ConnectAndSell CEO Chris Beall, the different ways that sales has changed in the 10 years since James joined the company. They compare acquiring data on prospects, targeting the right insertion points (aka company insiders), the importance of cold call training, and selling vs. serving customers’ needs. You’ll want to stay tuned to the very end when they talk about what they see as “the next frontier,” on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Getting to the Right Insider.”
About Our Guest
James Townsend is Vice President of Customer Success and Growth at ConnectAndSell, a company that pioneered the service of getting prospects on the phone for its customers’ cold callers to talk to. As one of his LinkedIn followers states, “James is a consummate professional with a deep desire to see his clients succeed.”
Does the thought of placing a cold call make you tense, nervous, embarrassed, or tongue-tied?
Today’s Market Dominance Guys’ guest, Gavin Tice, a sales instructor for ConnectAndSell’s Flight School, says not to worry about this awkwardness. He even says it’s an okay place to start. What a relief, huh? Our hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, talk with Gavin today about how a standard operating procedure — in this case, a tried-and-true cold call script and method of delivery — can turn that frown upside down. What Gavin teaches is how to have a lot of fun and success making cold calls. Yes, you heard right: FUN! What a great reason to listen in while this Conductor of Conversations and our podcast hosts discuss the ways that SOPs, social work, psychology, and introversion positively impact the cold-calling experience in today’s Market Dominance Guy’s topic, “How to Turn Awkwardness into Success.”
About Our Guest
Gavin Tice is a Flight School instructor for ConnectAndSell. His background in the military and as a social worker have bestowed on him the perfect mix of skills needed to be a member of ConnectAndSell’s conversation optimization team, as he helps his Flight School students make success-building changes to their cold-calling delivery. A former team member of Gavin’s gives him this accolade: “Gavin’s depth of experience with sales and relationship building is like nothing I've encountered before. He brings his all to the table, every time.”
What’s a pattern interrupt? And how can it help you break down the resistance most people feel when ambushed by a cold call? Donny Crawford, Director of Conversation Optimization at ConnectAndSell, joins our Market Dominance Guy, ConnectAndSell CEO Chris Beall, on a Selling Power webinar hosted by Founder Gerhard Gschwandtner. These three conversation experts share some little-known tricks of the cold-calling trade, one of which is that saying something unexpected, like “Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?”, can break a prospect’s usual pattern of hanging up or refusing to engage. As Donny says, it truly is a game-changer, especially when said in a friendly, playful voice. “The friendliness actually matters,” he explains. “You’ve got to be assertive enough, but in a friendly manner.” Get ready to absorb this and other helpful tips from ConnectAndSell’s Flight School cold-calling training lessons in this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Pattern Interrupts Are Your Friend.”
About Our Guest
Donny Crawford is Director of Conversation Optimization at ConnectAndSell. With the expertise developed as a former customer and as Customer Success Manager at ConnectAndSell, he operates as chief instructor of Flight School, a structured program designed to help cold callers find their voice.
Hear more from Donny Crawford on his other Market Dominance Guys’ episodes.
When you’re making a cold call, is the voice you’re using an effective voice? Or could it use a little fine-tuning so that you can engender trust with your prospect — the trust needed to secure a discovery meeting? Donny Crawford, Director of Conversation Optimization at ConnectAndSell, joins our Market Dominance Guy, ConnectAndSell CEO Chris Beall, to walk you through how to find your most effective cold-calling voice. In previous episodes of this podcast, you may have heard our guys talk about ConnectAndSell’s Flight School cold-call training program. In today’s episode, you’ll get a mini–Flight School lesson all your own, presented by master instructors, Donny and Chris. Not only will you get a tried-and-true script, but more importantly, you’ll hear detailed instructions on how to use your tone of voice to achieve cold-calling success. As Donny says, you’ll learn to bring out your “friendly voice,” and when you do, you’ll see how that voice can make some magic happen. All this — and so much more — in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Finding Your Cold-Calling Voice.”
About Our Guest
Donny Crawford is Director of Conversation Optimization at ConnectAndSell. With the expertise developed as a former customer and as Customer Success Manager at ConnectAndSell, he operates as chief instructor of Flight School, a structured program designed to help cold callers find their voice.
Learn more from Donny Crawford on these Market Dominance Guys’ episodes:
- “Three Reasons Sales Reps Don’t Follow Up” https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/three-reasons-sales-reps-dont-follow-up/
- “The Power of the Anti-Curse to Overcome Rejection” https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/the-power-of-the-anti-curse-to-overcome-rejection/
- “Your Sales People Are Brain Surgeons” https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/your-sales-people-are-brain-surgeons/
- “Never, Never, NEVER Retire a Follow-Up Call” https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/never-never-never-retire-a-follow-up-call/
Are you motivated to help the prospects you’re cold-calling? Jennifer Standish, Founder of Prospecting Works, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, in this third of a three-part conversation to talk about different approaches to this process we call “sales.” Thinking of a sale as a “win,” implies that sales is a contest between you and your prospect — and your prospect is the loser. Does this sound like cause for a happy dance? Jennifer says it makes her crazy to hear salespeople say that they’re “killing” their numbers. Corey and Chris agree that this aggressive attitude could also kill the chance of developing a trusting relationship with a buyer, a relationship that would serve both parties now and in the future. Oh, these three savvy sales folks know what’s what when it comes to making magic happen between a salesperson and a prospect. You’re going to want to take notes while you’re listening to this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Magical Type of Cold Call.”
Catch the previous two episodes in this conversation here:
EP122: Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure EP123: Hire Yourself a Grandma About Our Guest
Jennifer Standish is Founder of Prospecting Works, an organization that assists salespeople in overcoming cold-call reluctance. She combines her 25-year cold-calling career with her skills as an intuitive healer, offering a “warm and fuzzy” approach that attracts introverts as well as people who don’t want to be considered salespeople.
Would you hang up on your grandmother? Of course not! Jennifer Standish, Founder of Prospecting Works, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris Beall, in this second of a three-part conversation to talk about the perfect voice for cold-calling success. Certain voices cause people to react in a positive way, and it turns out that a female over the age of 60 has the perfect voice to get that positive reaction needed to be a successful cold-caller. Who knew?! Well, researchers like Jennifer did. She has discovered that with a little training, middle-aged women without an identifiable accent are phenomenal appointment-setters. Corey and Chris enthusiastically agree with her that “grandmas are the untapped labor market we need in sales.” If this sounds bizarre to you, tune in to hear how the nuances of voice affect the trust you need to establish in the first critical moments of a cold call. It’s all on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Hire Yourself a Grandma.”
Listen to the first part of this conversation:
EP122: Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure and the next segment after this one:
EP124: The Magical Type of Cold Call About Our Guest
Jennifer Standish is Founder of Prospecting Works, an organization that assists salespeople in overcoming cold-call reluctance. She combines her 25-year cold-calling career with her skills as an intuitive healer, offering a “warm and fuzzy” approach that attracts introverts as well as people who don’t want to be considered salespeople.
Jennifer Standish, Founder of Prospecting Works, is preaching to the Cold Calling Choir when she says that cold calling trainers don't spend enough time working with their people on their delivery. Jennifer and our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, all believe that a great script that hits all the points but has a terrible delivery won't get you any appointments. However, a great delivery — even if you're working with a mediocre script — will absolutely bring in the appointments. In this podcast, they also emphasize the importance of a salesperson's mindset when it comes to being a successful cold caller. If you think everybody's going to hang up on you, that everybody's going to be nasty to you, well, then, that is generally what you're going to get. But if you believe in your core that your product or service can truly help people, if you are certain of the integrity of your offering, then you can sell people on your belief. Why? Because your authenticity will come through to your prospects, loud and clear. Listen to this first of a three-part Market Dominance Guys' series by these three cold-calling gurus on today's episode, "Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure."
Then, listen to the next two parts of this conversation here:
EP123: Hire Yourself a Grandma EP124: The Magical Type of Cold Call About Our Guest
Jennifer Standish is Founder of Prospecting Works, an organization that assists salespeople in overcoming cold-call reluctance. She combines her 25-year cold-calling career with her skills as an intuitive healer, offering a “warm and fuzzy” approach that attracts introverts as well as people who don’t want to be considered salespeople.
How do you de-risk your company? Marketing and business consultant John Orban and our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, wind up their four-part conversation by offering our listeners a great deal of advice about how to balance potential risk. These three sales scholars delve into the potential problems of forecasting your company’s success, the possible perils of determining the market value of your sales pipeline, and the pitfalls of the practice of inflating your sales and revenue prior to a reporting period, which is known as “stuffing the channel.” “I give myself good advice, but I seldom follow it,” admits Lewis Carroll’s famous character, Alice. In this vein, Chris warns that being in love with your brilliant idea for a business can make you into your great idea’s zombie — ignoring all you’ve learned about de-risking. Save yourself from that fate by listening to this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Beware the Jabberwock, my son!”
The complete poem by Lewis Carroll is here.
About Our Guest
John Orban brings his background as a MetLife sales rep and as an administrator of computer networks to his current career as a marketing and business consultant for creative professionals.
Do you believe that the cold calls you make are an interruption in your prospect’s day? Well, they definitely are! But to what purpose? Marketing and business consultant John Orban and our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, use part three of a four-part conversation to take this inherent problem in sales and look at it from a different angle. Chris cites the podcast he did with ConnectAndSell’s Matt Forbes, whose epiphany about how belief in the opportunity he offers his prospects changed everything about the way he conducts cold calls. John cites the epiphany he experienced reading Betty Edwards’ book, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, when he discovered how a book can change your awareness of ordinary things and lead you to look at your world differently. Chris touts Geoffrey Moore’s book, Crossing the Chasm, for opening his eyes and engendering a new belief in empathy and how employing that essential quality can help you build trust with a prospect. And, with another of his insightful summations, Corey ties all these ideas together with the advice to “major in minor things.” Be prepared to garner insights of your own as our three dedicated students of sales and of life share with you their practice — just like Alice’s — of believing “Six impossible things before breakfast” on this episode of the Market Dominance Guys.
Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain - Betty Edwards
Crossing the Chasm - Geoffrey A. Moore
About Our Guest
John Orban brings his background as a MetLife sales rep and as an administrator of computer networks to his current career as a marketing and business consultant for creative professionals.
Would you expect introverts to be good at cold calling? Oddly enough, they aren’t just good —they’re great! Today, we delve into why introverts make great salespeople in this second part of a four-part conversation between marketing and business consultant John Orban and our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank. It turns out that introverts’ reluctance to push themselves forward makes them less likely to take over a cold-call conversation, and this allows prospects to talk. And when prospects talk — shazam! — we learn things about them that help us become partners on their sales journey. This insight sparked John to ask Chris the question, “What role do you think curiosity plays in the process of making a cold call?” Listen in to learn the whys and wherefores of this valuable cold-calling asset on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “ ‘Curiouser and Curiouser.’ ”
About Our Guest
John Orban brings his background as a MetLife sales rep and as an administrator of computer networks to his current career as a marketing and business consultant for creative professionals.
“The time has come,” the Walrus said, “to talk of many things.” Our podcast guest, John Orban, is currently a marketing and business consultant who spent 24 years honing his sales skills as a rep for MetLife. Today, John joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, to talk of many sales- and life-related things. In this first episode of a four-part conversation, John, Chris, and Corey touch on the trickiness of successfully communicating an idea, on the importance of thinking but not over-thinking, on resisting the temptation to make things complex, and finally, on the math employed in sales and, thus, market domination. There’s even a bit about the stability of cruise ships. Seriously. Many things! And these three sales guys are just getting started, so don’t miss the fun in this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Of Cabbages and Kings — and Blue Whales.”
About Our Guest
John Orban brings his background as a MetLife sales rep and as an administrator of computer networks to his current career as a marketing and business consultant for creative professionals.
In striving for market dominance, which among the top companies in any field do you think puts forth the most effort to gain — or hold onto — that dominant position? Our guest, Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors, and our two Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, debate this question during this final conversation of their four-part discussion on all things sales-related. Even loyal followers of our Market Dominance Guys’ podcast will be surprised at the shared opinion these three sales gurus hold about which highly ranked company within each industry or service can claim bragging rights to the title of this episode, “We Try Hardest!”
About Our Guest
Matt McCorkle is Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors. He has earned both a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in mechanical engineering and has now been with Kaeser Compressors for 13 years.
Catch the three previous episodes in this session with Matt McCorkle:
EP107: On the Phone, They’ll Tell You the Truth
EP108: Sales and the State of Apprehension
EP109: Being There for Your Customers
When your prospect’s response to your cold call is “Not now,” do you assume they mean they’re too busy to talk at that moment? Or perhaps this is just their way of getting rid of you altogether. Our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, talks with Gerhard Gschwandtner, CEO and founder of Selling Power, in this podcast about a more probable reason you’re hearing “Not now.” It has to do with the replacement cycle and consideration cycle of businesses. In other words, where they are in the three-year buying cycle most businesses utilize for timing when they begin considering a new product or service — or replacing an existing one. Once you determine if “Not now” really means “We’re not ready to purchase at this time,” what you do next is critical! Listen in as Chris and Gerhard divulge the intelligent way to deal with the 11/12ths of the market who aren’t ready to buy at this time. Take my word for it: You won’t want to miss the market-dominating advice you’ll hear on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Who’s Ready to Buy Right Now?”
About Our Guest Host Gerhard Gschwandtner is founder and CEO of Selling Power magazine, as well as CEO of the Sales 3.0 Conference series. Gerhard’s career has always been centered around helping sales leaders create peak performance in business and in life through video interviews, online events, and live workshops and retreats.
The only reliable way to see if your company’s value statement resonates with your prospects is to have lots of conversations with them, and for that, of course, you need salespeople. But as our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, tells our guest host, Gerhard Gschwandtner, founder and CEO of Selling Power magazine, that’s not all you need. You first require an expert to craft the scripted message salespeople will use in their cold calls. And you need a coach to train your callers to deliver that message in the most effective way. Once cold-calling begins, you then need a coach to make sure your salespeople don’t drift from your carefully crafted script and specified way of delivering it. “Under pressure,” Chris says, “we all begin to drift, to try something a little different, something unproven. So, somebody’s got to keep the salespeople together, and that’s the coach.” Join Gerhard and Chris as they provide coaching on the importance of sales-call coaching in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Enemy of Your Message Is Drift.”
About Our Guest Host
Gerhard Gschwandtner is founder and CEO of Selling Power magazine, as well as CEO of the Sales 3.0 Conference series. Gerhard’s career has always been centered around helping sales leaders create peak performance in business and in life through video interviews, online events, and live workshops and retreats.
You may have heard the term “post-pandemic” bandied about in recent months, but there’s nothing “post” about the COVID pandemic yet: We’re still in the thick of it. It’s not all downside, though, as James Thornburg, Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, and our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank will tell you. In their third conversation together, they talk about the upside of the pandemic as it concerns sales. Because what is “post” for most salespeople is that bone-wearying business air travel, and the time-waste of business lunches, and the tedium and expense of that daily commute to and from the company office or to and from the offices of business prospects. The combination of cold calling by phone and discovery meetings by Zoom has made a new and successful world for salespeople, one that doesn’t require leaving home. Yes, you’ve heard of attempts to return sales to the pre-pandemic days, but as Chris predicts in this episode of Market Dominance Guys, “There Is No Going Back.”
About Our Guest James Thornburg is the Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, which offers a service that helps design IT and telecom projects for their clients and includes selecting the right supplier at the right price with no extra cost to their customers.
There’s a decided difference between the purpose of a cold call and that of a discovery call. James Thornburg, Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, continues his conversation with our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, in order to provide you with some guidance about this important difference. During a discovery call, marketing language, also known as “selling your product or service,” is entirely appropriate. But if you foolishly use marketing language during your first conversation with a prospect — well, that, my podcast friends, is the cold-call kiss of death. Join these three successful cold-callers as they discuss the components of each type of call and warn you away from the two biggest cold-calling mistakes. Listen in to borrow from the best as these three professional salespeople lend you their expertise on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Cold-Call Kiss of Death.”
About Our Guest
James Thornburg is the Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, which offers a service that helps design IT and telecom projects for their clients and includes selecting the right supplier at the right price with no extra cost to their customers.
Catch his previous episode here: Is Cold Calling a Form of Slapstick?
What makes a great cold caller? Our guest today on Market Dominance Guys, James Thornburg, Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, defines the characteristics of a great cold caller as someone who puts in the hard work by having lots of conversations — and also has a little charisma. James uses humor and ConnectAndSell’s Lightning platform to connect to his prospects, and then shares his cold calls on LinkedIn for all to learn from — or be entertained by. Our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, are enthusiastic listeners, each touting the entertainment and educational value James provides with his cold-calling triumphs as well as his train wrecks. Listen in as these three sales guys discuss James Thornburg’s ability to “pivot to a chuckle” on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Is Cold Calling a Form of Slapstick?”
About Our Guest
James Thornburg is the Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, which offers a service that helps design IT or telecom projects for their clients and includes selecting the right supplier at the right price with no extra cost to their customers.
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Here is the complete transcript to this episode.
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with The Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business. What makes a great cold caller? Our guest today on Market Dominance Guys, James Thornburg Enterprise IT Strategists at Bridgepointe Technologies defines the characteristics of a great cold caller as someone who puts in the hard work by having lots of conversations and also has a little charisma.
James uses humor and ConnectAndSell's lightning platform to connect to his prospects and then shares his cold calls on LinkedIn for all to learn from. Or be entertained by. Our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, are enthusiastic listeners. Each touting the entertainment and educational value James provides with his cold calling triumphs as well as his train wrecks. Listen in as these three guys discuss James Thornburg's ability to pivot to a chuckle. On this Market Dominance Guys episode, is cold calling a form of slapstick?
Corey Frank (01:16):
Welcome to another episode of The Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the prince [inaudible 00:01:22] and the prognosticator of all things sales, Chris Beall, my fabulous co-host here. So good afternoon, Chris.
Chris Beall (01:30):
Hey. Good to be here, Corey. Nice to see you. You look good.
Corey Frank (01:33):
Yeah, thank you. I think it's the lighting, it's all in the lighting with the black. Black, I heard, is slimming. I probably need to wear all black. But listen, we're in the presence of some royalty here. It's been a long time coming because we've talked about James several episodes. James, if you're one of our seven listeners, you know that your name has come up a number of times in some of the earlier episodes. So we have with us today, not only a titan of technology, the prince of pastures ... You're a farmer, you're a homesteader. But we have the one and only, the king of the cold call, James Thornburg with us. So welcome, James, to The Market Dominance Guys.
James Thornburg (02:10):
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah.
Corey Frank (02:12):
Absolutely. So are you currently in the throne room? Is that what you call the cold call room you're in right now?
James Thornburg (02:16):
Yes, it's my basement downstairs.
Chris Beall (02:21):
James, I love your plain white background. It's so good.
James Thornburg (02:24):
It's great. For my calls, I've been using the Zoom background. We have some new branding here at Bridgepointe, but yeah, I like just the gray.
Corey Frank (02:32):
Yeah. Yeah. So James, we've been following you for a while, and obviously, you and Chris have known each other for a while, we've known each other for a few years. I've heckled and commented you on many a LinkedIn post. But you're the king of the cold call, you're not the earl of email or you're not the lord of LinkedIn, you chose the cold call as the channel of dominance for your business here at Bridgepointe. It's one of the principles at Bridgepointe. How come, in your sales career, why cold call versus ... Isn't email easier? Isn't LinkedIn easier? But you chose to have dominion as the king in probably one of the channels that most folks would shun. So why, for you, is the cold call king?
James Thornburg (03:13):
Well, I mean, I wasn't making a lot of calls for a lot of my career. I mean, when I first got out of college, I was making cold calls. I was selling insurance and I got into selling wireless phones and things like that for Nextel. So I was sitting the phones quite a bit then. And then I got into The Channel, and The Channel, you really just leveraged network relationships. And so I used those individuals to open up doors for me. And I did quite well when I was at my former company, Single Path, I was there for almost 12 years. And for about eight or nine of those years, I focused on working with networking partners and that's how I got introduced to opportunities. But things started to dry up, partnerships that I had before, they were acquired.
Some of them were making so much money they just weren't active in terms of opening up opportunities and my pipeline was suffering because of it. So I started looking to figure out, hey, how am I going to net new opportunities? And I was thinking about it this weekend, I'm like, I don't even know how I got introduced to ConnectAndSell. I don't know if it was, I was Googling or whatever, but landed on ConnectAndSell and at that point I was reborn cold caller. And it kind of opened my eyes that, hey, I can open up a lot of opportunities using this platform and making dials. And then that put me in a position, I was at Single Path for about a year, year and a half on ConnectAndSell, using it as a full-time sales rep. And then I saw ConnectAndSell as my vehicle to basically start out. To go out on my own. That's basically what I did about two years ago.
Corey Frank (04:50):
Got you. Yeah, I think you and Ryan [inaudible 00:04:53] are birds of a feather there, that you put yourself out there. You both put yourself out there. And I think you pioneered this trend, James, that a lot of us can sit in the cheap seats, guys like me, and I can critique a call here and there. Chris and I certainly do our share of it. And we do our share of cold calls, certainly Chris is out there, he'll do it on stage. But James, you have a unique perspective that you actually do it on LinkedIn Live, you'll record your calls occasionally, and put them out there. Good, bad, ugly, warts and all. How'd you get started on that? What kind of crazy guy would do that and be that glutton for punishment? To put yourself so publicly out there?
James Thornburg (05:28):
I had a leased office in downtown Kalamazoo. I was still working at my former employer. The room was about four by seven with no windows, and I think it was in the middle of February, and I was bored one day. I was making these calls and I'm like, "Hey, why don't I just start recording these calls?" And I was like, "That was pretty funny about the VP of Technology that told me he was a teller." And so then I posted it on LinkedIn and got some traction and people seemed to be interested. And that's kind of where it started in terms of the videos for LinkedIn.
Corey Frank (06:02):
What do you think about that, Chris? I mean he certainly, as the CEO of his own company there, his own practice, James, he puts himself out there. You talked a lot about CEOs needing to do that, put themselves out there and do a certain amount of cold calls. I think James has certainly taken it to a different level. But what's your thoughts on that?
Chris Beall (06:19):
Well, I mean, James, what you've done at a different level is you're funny. And I actually think that that contrast between what people think about cold calling, which is the movies, the boiler rooms, the intensity, the screaming, all that stuff. And then we watch you and it's like, the very best part, to me, is that the camera is there for you. We're there. And you look at us and you use us. I mean, that's what fun. It's like, we're in the call because your feelings about it, especially that anticipation thing you do. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this might go, it might go. It's like, oh boom. And that, I think, is a completely new thing. Everybody's got different style, right? So Shane Mahey does his thing while he's along the banks of the Thames and he's making calls. And that's very much like calls. It's cool, but after, it's like making calls. Your stuff is not just cool, your stuff is funny. And I don't know, you don't think of yourself as a funny guy, I think. Right?
James Thornburg (07:28):
Not really. I mean, I'm trying to be funny today but it's not really working [crosstalk 00:07:32]. Trying to come up with something witty.
Corey Frank (07:37):
Great try. Great try.
Chris Beall (07:38):
Well, it's the thing that you do with the camera that I just think it's great. It's like, we're there. Because cold calling has this funny quality. Each call is an adventure, where you don't know what's going to happen. And somebody once asked me, some really intelligent person said, "Gosh, Chris, you seem to like sports, sporting events, more than most people who sport your particular mathematical inclinations." I think they said something about IQ or some nonsense like that. It's like, why? It's like, because I don't know how it's going to turn out. You get sucked into the little soap opera that is ... Or whatever, a game of some sort. Whatever it happens to. And every cold call is that kind of game.
Even though it's not oppositional with this person, when we're there with you, I feel like we, the audience, are getting that sense of why the conversation ... And I'll make a distinction. Cold calls and cold conversations are two different things. If you had to cold call, you wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. Cold calling means not talking to anybody for an hour. That's crazy. Making cold conversations are pretty fun, if you're ready for the adventure. For us watching you, it's pure fun. Because we're not the ones who are dealing with the negative side, other than we get to deal with how you deal with it, which is funny.
James Thornburg (08:59):
Yeah. I mean it's fun to watch somebody get hung up on.
Chris Beall (09:02):
Who knew? Is it slapstick? That's a question. Is watching cold calling a form slapstick, where we don't have that much of that anymore, but are we getting a little Lucille Ball in there or whatever? A little Charlie Chaplin, I don't know.
Corey Frank (09:18):
I don't know. I think it's a little bit of schadenfreude, right? I mean, you see somebody else get his butt kicked. And you have a lot of good calls, a lot of successful calls. I think everybody wants to watch it for the train wrecks. And it does ... I know when I watch him, James, I feel like, wow, that was really clever. You start off with a joke, you're just very unassuming. You're not supplicative, you don't lose your status, but you really have this attitude where, "Listen, I'm a human, I'm looking for another human connection. And can we dispense with all the roles and all the accouterments of your title and role and just make a connection because you picked up the phone and I'm on the other end. And let's see if we have something that can benefit each other."
And that's just very raw and authentic. Doing so many, and doing so many publicly, and certainly doing so many at scale, because you're the artisan of the ConnectAndSell weapon. What have you learned in cold calling? Because you said, most of your career, you didn't necessarily have to do it. And then you have just had probably more cold calls in the last couple of years, probably more than 99% of sales professionals in the B2B world, so what have you learned from this channel and from the reception that you get from decision levels? Decision level buyers?
James Thornburg (10:40):
Well, I mean it's really worked for my industry. Our offering, or what we do, is somewhat nuanced. I mean, we're helping IT leaders buy technology and it's hard to articulate that through any other medium. When you're able to have a conversation with somebody, it's easier to explain to them. Because like I said, I mean, what we do is somewhat nuanced, the concept is foreign to probably 90% of the people that we talk to. And I refer to it as speed dialing, ConnectAndSell. Just even using a power dialer or some manual dialing, then your power dialer. I mean, the challenge is, is that you're dealing with a lot of that minutia of cold calling, which is the reason why no one wants to make any calls. So to be able to just press a button and have some conversations. People think I work hard. I mean, it's a lazy way to do it. It makes things easier. You're just having conversations.
Do you have the courage to press that button and talk to somebody? And if you don't, then what are doing in sales? And so, when you look at early on, I mean my pitch has evolved and things of that nature. I mean, people have a lot of opinions about the pitch, the openers and things of that nature, but gotten a lot better in terms of the tonality. Just my conversions are a lot higher and that's due to having a lot of at bats. Having a lot of conversations, you get better and better. I think people miss out on that. Everybody wants to talk about the conversions and things of that nature, but it's also, how do we make these reps better more quickly? And the way that you're going to be able to do that is more conversations. I don't know if that answered your question.
Corey Frank (12:18):
No, you really have to get frequent before you get good, is what I hear you saying. And you've been able to condense 20 years of cold calling, that most of us had to come up through the ranks using old rotary phones, and you've been able to condense it in the last two and a half years or so with a ConnectAndSell type of weapon, it sounds like.
James Thornburg (12:36):
Listen, I'm a little old school too. I didn't use a rotary phone, but I had index cards.
Corey Frank (12:41):
Sure. Sure.
James Thornburg (12:43):
I had index cards and I was writing on that, that was my follow-up.
Corey Frank (12:46):
Yeah, yeah. Right. With the volume of calls that you've made, and Chris and I would be interested in knowing, okay, because you had such a very tight learning curve over ... Not that you've never made cold calls, but I'm saying in this type of volume over the last 24, 36 months or so at volume, what doesn't work at a cold call? You say a lot of folks will say, "James, I have some opinions on your opener and I have opinions on X and Y and Z." Okay, well you do it at scale. So, in your opinion, what have you learned that doesn't work in a cold call, that you probably see a lot of folks still doing?
James Thornburg (14:06):
I don't know if I can answer that. I don't have strong opinions about openers, technique, and things of that nature. I don't like the, how are you, though. As the opener. I don't think that's a very good idea. But I think if you have the right tonality and it doesn't sound like you're reading off of some type of script, and you're putting in the work, you're going to have success. But I can't really pinpoint something that doesn't work in cold calling. I mean, what are your thoughts?
Chris Beall (14:34):
I've got some. I have ideas of what does work. So my two favorite people to listen to, having actual cold calls, are you and Cheryl Turner. And the reason is, both of you have the ability to pivot to a chuckle better than any other people out there. You're light enough with the situation that it's like, you've done the hard work, you've pushed the button, now you're going to be light with this person and let it roll and talk to them. And when something kind of funny comes up, or they challenge you in some way, that the best answer isn't to fight them, it's to laugh. Like the one the other day where the guy basically says something about being retired or whatever. And you go, "Well, we get these lists from these list providers and blah, blah, blah," and it was funny. I mean, it was funny but it was also like, it's not funny like me against you kind of funny. It's funny like, we're all in this together kind of funny. Like life is funny, kind of funny.
And you and Cheryl both do it and you do it like ... I was with Helen a couple of weeks ago and we were going through a bunch of Cheryl's calls and listening to them. Because Helen has an interest in trying ConnectAndSell in a very special kind of way, with a huge, huge company out there that she might be calling into. And this is new to her. And she asked, "Well, what really makes it work?" And I said, "Let's go listen to Cheryl and listen to James. And I will break this down for you like I'm Howard Cosell, it's Ali/Frazier. I'm going to take you through this punch by punch. And I'm going to redirect your eyes from the gloves down to their feet so you can see what they're really doing." And what was so interesting was that EQ, on the spot, that it takes to laugh with somebody. I actually think that is the most interesting thing that both of you do. And it's spectacular.
James Thornburg (16:33):
Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's just-
Chris Beall (16:37):
You think things are funny.
James Thornburg (16:38):
People get so upset about it, about cold calls and things of that nature. And it's just, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of other problems in the world. I mean, somebody calling you and everything and it's just like ... I mean, even the retired people. Sometimes I got to leave them with a joke because it's like, hey, you're retired. You're mad that I called you, I know that you get calls, but it's like, hey, lighten up a little bit. Let me leave you with a joke. And then I leave them with the five cold caller joke.
Chris Beall (17:03):
Yeah. I don't know if everybody knows the joke, but could you give us the joke? I mean, let's have Corey be all pissed off at you. Corey, you're retired, right? Or you're pretty much retired, as far as I can tell.
James Thornburg (17:15):
Corey, Corey. Hey, listen, let me at least leave you with a joke. What do you call five cold callers at the bottom of the ocean?
Corey Frank (17:25):
I don't know, James, what do you call five cold callers at the bottom of the ocean?
James Thornburg (17:28):
A good start.
Corey Frank (17:31):
That's right. See? And you made a human connection, right?
Chris Beall (17:36):
By the way, let me make a technical point there. This is something that our friend Chris Boss would call tactical empathy. Show the other person you see the world through their eyes, what do they think if they could think clearly about five cold callers at the bottom of the ocean? They'd think it's a good start, right? So some of these things, they sound very natural because they are. James, Cheryl, these people are true geniuses at this.
Corey Frank (18:02):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Chris Beall (18:04):
Henry [inaudible 00:18:05] is now converting at 40%. And he's a guy you wouldn't have thought was a natural, but he's picked up a whole bunch of things from Cheryl. He works closely with Cheryl and some magic is going on. If Scott Webb, the 75.9% converter, he just sounds like he's your friend who knows you, who's calling you, and really thinks it's a good idea for you that we should have a meeting. And by the way, I got to go. So he's out of there, I got to. "Hey, I got call. I'll shoot you something." Boom. Done. So these folks all have something in common, which is, in the ring, so to speak, they're relaxed. They're excited and want something to happen, but still relaxed enough to laugh and make these simple-looking moves, that I know as an expert on this, are not that simple to master.
Corey Frank (18:58):
What do you guys think? Is that nature? Is it nurture? Is it is a little bit of Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption, where he only gets parole once he doesn't give a crap anymore? And it's that attitude, it's tough to teach somebody right out of school that ... It's not apathy. Like you said, it's more ... Because I'm not losing my status. It's very cool in the pocket. Is that something that's taught or is that something that can be learned? [crosstalk 00:19:25]
Chris Beall (19:26):
Did you have to learn it? Did you just fall into it?
James Thornburg (19:31):
I'd say repetition and personality. I mean, there is a little personality element to it. And I don't know how teachable that is.
Chris Beall (19:40):
I don't either. It's like being tall for basketball, you could be Spud Webb and you can be great, but there were never 30 Spud Webbs in the league.
James Thornburg (19:53):
I mean, I don't think you have to be a James Thornburg and have my personality. I mean, people bring different gifts to the game. And mine just happens to be hard work and maybe a little bit of charisma.
Chris Beall (20:05):
And more chickens.
Corey Frank (20:07):
Maybe it is. The homesteader lifestyle has certainly, probably contributes to the mellow nature, the connection, empathy. We screenplay the uh's and the um's in our screenplays that we use for outbound calling. And we got a lot of folks who say, "Doesn't that make you sound unsure? Does that make you sound like, don't know what you're talking about? And if you're talking with a C-Level or director level, they're going to go ..." It's like, no, makes you sound human. Chris and I talked about this last time, never trust a person who doesn't walk around with a little bit of a limp. And so, we screenplay that in. And I think that the brilliance of the 27 seconds is that, even if I don't have this high emotional intelligence, off the chart like you do, or Cheryl or Scott, that at least is a little bit of a verbal crutch to help get you there. That 27 seconds.
It's not, can I have a minute? 27 seconds. Chris was talking to me, we call it the playful curious. Can James come out and play? That's what we teach, that's what they teach in the flight school at ConnectAndSell, that is the perfect encapsulation of how to think. What the director's notes for the actor are on the screenplay. Playful curious, can James come out and play? That's how you say that in 27 seconds. And even if I blew the other part, I'm at least going to buy myself another few seconds by saying that. And you're a big advocate of the 27 seconds, certainly, James [inaudible 00:21:36].
James Thornburg (21:36):
I'd be interested in Chris's opinion. I mean, how much of it is the call? I'd say it's 90% of the call. If they buy into the 27 seconds, they buy you more time, then you can tell your story and hopefully get some more information or book a meeting or get a follow-up, right?
Chris Beall (21:51):
Yeah, it's funny. Today I was talking with Donny Crawford about this and we were going pretty deep on this question of, what's the purpose of the cold call? And I pointed out to him, Donny, a great conversion rate is 10%. So that means 90% of the purpose is what happens when you don't convert? And he kind of stopped and he went, huh? He said, "Yeah, we get into that, don't we? That the purpose is to get the meeting." It's like, no, the outcome is to get the meeting when that's the right thing for both parties. Which is more often than you might think. But the purpose is to establish trust, and the caveat is, don't blow it. Once you've established trust in that first seven seconds, don't blow it. Because you're going to talk to this person later. They're in a cohort, it's called people who answer the phone.
They're yours to talk with, over and over, 11/12 of them are in market right now. Now James sells something that's very nuanced. At ConnectAndSell, we sell something that's anti-nuanced but isn't in a category either. You can't go up to somebody and say, "Hey, you know what? I got something that's going to get you 10 times more conversations and you're going to love it." And they're going to go, "Wow, really? Here's my checkbook." They're going to go, "Huh, you're either an idiot or a charlatan. I don't know if I want to stick around to find out which." That's how it works and that was Cheryl's response to me in a test drive. I thought the guy was an idiot or a charlatan. She went off and used it, came back in 10 minutes and said, "I was wrong. You may well be an idiot and charlatan, we'll establish that later. But this stuff works, man."
So I think that the whole game is at the beginning. When you look at it one way, 100% of cold calls succeed if you get that person to trust you and you don't blow it. And James, you never blow it. I never hear you blow it. Now, maybe you deep [crosstalk 00:23:48].
James Thornburg (23:47):
I show the videos of the ones that I'm not blowing.
Chris Beall (23:54):
Well, people blow it. It's easy to blow it. You want to blow it, sell to them.
Corey Frank (23:59):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (23:59):
I get you to trust me, and then I sell to you, I'm kind of toast.
Corey Frank (24:03):
Yeah. I thought we were friends, what are you doing selling to me?
Chris Beall (24:05):
Exactly. Exactly. I love Scott Webb's point of view is, he says, "When I insist somebody take the meeting, my internal image is that I'm putting my hand out and slapping him in the chest and pulling them back so they don't step in front of a speeding bus. That's how I feel about that person. I'm saying them from something they didn't see, which is the disaster of not attending a meeting in which I'm going to teach them valuable stuff."
Corey Frank (24:34):
So he emotes that intent?
Chris Beall (24:37):
Yes. Yeah, we had a discussion once where he called me and said, "My mindset's wrong, I'm going to fix it." And he was converting 35%. And so he calls me back an hour later and says, "I fixed it. Five for five." And he's dragging that 35% tail into a 75.9% conversions. So he still got that statistical, that big hunk of bad back there, which he thinks is bad. And the rest of us go, "Woo, woo, that's pretty exciting." But it was a mindset change where he said, "You know what? I have an ethical obligation to this person, to make sure they come to this meeting, to learn what they don't even know can be learned. And I am going to satisfy that obligation by insisting they attend with me. That they take it. And if all I get is the verbal, and I just send them an invite, that's progress compared to no verbal. So I'm going to get the verbal, even if it doesn't have a date on it, and I'll send them an invite for something." I tell you what, the numbers don't lie.
Corey Frank (25:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Announcer (25:37):
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire TAM, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49.com. Never miss an episode, go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys. Or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
How’d you do on your last cold call? Can you detect when you’re off your game? Or are you still trying to figure out what techniques are needed to have a successful sales conversation? Jason Bay, Chief Prospecting Officer at Blissful Prospecting, has made teaching others to cold call successfully his life work. In this episode, he continues his two-part conversation as a guest on Market Dominance Guys with our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, as they discuss developing the techniques and self-awareness necessary in this job. They all agree it takes a fair amount of repetition to hone those sales skills, but you may be shocked to hear them say that just because you’ve been making cold calls for 20 years, doesn’t mean you’re good at it. Take some time out to check your skills against the ones that Jason, Chris, and Corey propose in this Market Dominance Guys’ episode “Is Your Cold Calling Technique Right On?”
About Our Guest
Jason Bay is Chief Prospecting Officer at Blissful Prospecting. He helps reps and sales teams who love landing big meetings with prospects but hate not getting responses to their cold emails or feeling confident making cold calls.
Did you know that, during a cold call, your tone is more important than the words you use? Who would have guessed that tonality ranks higher than the message you so carefully crafted? Jason Bay, Chief Prospecting Officer of Blissful Prospecting, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, to talk about this very thing: how a sincere tone communicates authenticity, which is so important when attempting to connect with your prospect. The guys also discuss how preparing and practicing cold calls can put you at ease enough that you are then able to concentrate on listening to the other person in the call — your prospect! According to Jason, “If you really listen to your prospect’s tonality, you’ll hear what they are thinking but not saying. But you’ve got to be so used to delivering your message that you’re not thinking much about what you’re going to say.” That way, you can really be tuned into the other person. We’d like to suggest you tune into this Market Dominance Guys’ episode to learn even more about how “Your Tone of Voice Tells All.”
About Our Guest Jason Bay is Chief Prospecting Officer at Blissful Prospecting. He helps reps and sales teams who love landing big meetings with prospects but hate not getting responses to their cold emails or feeling confident making cold calls.
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Here is the full transcript to this episode:
Announcer: (00:06)
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business. Did you know that during a cold call, your tone is more important than the words you use? Who would've guessed that tonality ranks higher than the message you so carefully crafted?.
Announcer: (00:34)
Jason Bay, Chief Prospecting Officer of Blissful Prospecting, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, to talk about this very thing, how a sincere tone communicates authenticity, which is so important when attempting to connect with your prospects. The guys also discuss how preparing and practicing cold calls can put you at ease enough that you are then able to concentrate on listening to the other person in the call, your prospect. According to Jason, if you really listen to your prospect's tonality, you'll hear what they are thinking but not saying. You've got to be so used to delivering your message that you're not thinking much about what you're going to say. That way, you can really be tuned into the other person. We'd like to suggest you tune into this Market Dominance Guys episode to learn even more about how your tone of voice tells all.
Chris Beall: (01:31)
Corey, lead us into this thing.
Corey Frank: (01:34)
Beautiful. Absolutely. Well, welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. This is Corey Frank and my esteemed cohost, the sage of sales, the profit of profits, Chris Beall, as always. Welcome, Chris. How have you been this past week since our last recording session?
Chris Beall: (01:48)
Oh, this has been a rocking week. It's been wild. I think I've had five new ideas, two of which were worth not throwing away this week. It's really something.
Corey Frank: (01:58)
And I understand, not to disclose too much for the audience here, but competition is about to weep. I have a premonition the competition is about to weep here in the next few weeks with all the deals that certainly ConnectAndSell has been dragging in in this very profitable and high-velocity Q4, correct?
Chris Beall: (02:16)
Yeah. Q4 tends to be good for us, and I think this one is going to be pretty unusually good. So yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Corey Frank: (02:24)
Yes. And so today we have, I think the butteriest, is that a word? Butteriest voice in the business. We have Jason Bay, CEO of Blissful Prospecting as our guest in the studio. So welcome, Jason, to the Market Dominance Guys.
Jason Bay: (02:39)
I'm excited to be here. I was a little nervous about what was going to come out of your mouth after you said butteriest. Is he talking about my skin, my body? I don't know what you were-
Corey Frank: (02:48)
Well, maybe.
Jason Bay: (02:49)
... about to go with that, man.
Corey Frank: (02:49)
Extrasensory, yeah, I could wax your head a little bit. But I know Chris is a big advocate of tone and I'd like to talk about that, maybe even out the gate or so, because Chris is a connoisseur of the craft. And certainly you, Jason, for what you do at Blissful, which we want to learn all about. But tone is so important, and especially when we're talking about top of funnel for market dominance. So, Chris, the first time you were on Jason's podcast last week, I guess, and so first impressions, just if you close your eyes and you just think about the tone of getting a cold call from Jason, what are your thoughts?
Chris Beall: (03:20)
Oh, I'm just saying yes. I mean, if Jason closed a call with, "Fantastic, I'm a morning person. I'll shoot something over for next Thursday and we'll move it around if we have to," he's going to get 130% of the people he talks to saying yes. 130%. New people will come over and say, "Did I hear that correctly? I want in on that meeting, too." That's what it's going to be like. And it is. I mean, I'm deadly serious, by the way, that tone is everything. In fact, I was talking with Geoff Hatfield the other day, Scott Webb's partner in crime over there at HUB International, and he said, "People think that strategy and execution are where it's at, and the conversations work in service of strategy and execution. They're a thing you do, and you have conversation tools and analytics and all that around that." And this guy, by the way, is a world-class strategist. He's the real deal kind of strategist, right? And he said, "Conversations are up here at the top of the business. Everything else is dependent, including strategy and execution."
Chris Beall: (04:24)
Well, when you think about conversations, conversations by information content are almost all tone and very little of it is the actual words. So, we know that the words that we've spoken so far here might comprise, as words typed out, we might have gotten four or 5,000 bits of information out so far, the equivalent of a couple of emails, right? Maybe 5,000 bits in email is roughly the case. But the tone is being carried at 20,000 bits a second and it all counts. It all goes right into the mid-brain. It isn't very far between here and the center of your head, and there's nothing to stop that information from going in. So, if Hatfield's right, and by the way, I've known Hatfield only for a year and a half, but I've actually never known him to even be slightly wrong except about whether he is going to make a putt or not, okay? So, on all other matters, as far as I know, Geoff Hatfield is always correct. And this is strong statement from a guy who's an actuary. An actuary.
Corey Frank: (05:25)
Wow.
Chris Beall: (05:25)
Think about that. And a strategist. And he says, "Execution, great. Strategy, yeah. Conversations actually rule the [crosstalk 00:05:37] of any company." And that's really something. And it's all tone.
Corey Frank: (05:41)
So, what do you think about that, Jason? I see an oversized ukulele in the background there, you can see, so you're a musical guy, clearly. Did you learn your tone or were you think you were born with your tone? Was there a point when you started in your sales career that you were oblivious to your tone and your pace and your authenticity, or did you have to work at it like the rest of us?
Jason Bay: (06:04)
Yeah. The selling came pretty natural to me. My first job at 18 in college was going door-to-door selling house painting services. So, I signed up as a summer job. It was a big company that hires kids and essentially teaches them how to run a franchise. And to zoom back to when I was five, though, because this will answer your question, I remember when my parents signed me up for soccer. I was a super shy kid. So, they signed me up for soccer and my dad's like, "You don't need to do this forever, but you need to try it. We think you're really going to like it." And when my mom dropped me off in the little minivan, I remember walking up to the field and the coach, his name is Steve Herd, I think is his name, and I remember walking up like this because I was so shy and embarrassed that other people that I didn't know were looking at me.
Jason Bay: (06:52)
That's how shy I was. When I kicked a goal in one of the games and the people in the stands were cheering, they had to stop. My coach had to call a timeout because I was so embarrassed. As soon as I figured out that they were clapping for me, I just couldn't take it. So, I've always had this unassumptive approach to most things, just out of shyness. And we could spend a whole hour talking about what I've learned in therapy about what that shyness probably was. But I've always approached things from the place of, "You know what? If you don't want to do this, that's okay." And I think that that's really key. When I was doing door-to-door, I picked up on that really, really quickly. Now, teaching salespeople was something I struggled with at first, but the going door-to-door...
Jason Bay: (07:37)
And I still remember the pitch. It was, knock, "Hey, my name's Jason. I'm a student at Oregon State University and I was coming by because I'm running a house painting business this summer. We're going to be painting a lot of houses in your neighborhood. And I was wondering if you were thinking about getting any painting done this summer." And then I would do whatever I needed to do, objection handle from there. But it was very similar to how I approached cold calling for the first time. I didn't really struggle with that. This company that I worked with, they had this thing called the shark tank and they built this feature into their custom-built CRM. They called it the shark tank. But they have about 150,000 leads that come in through the system across the nation every year. And what they would do with the shark tank is they found a way to compile the data, much like we would in lists with people that signed up for estimates that didn't book a paint job, right?
Jason Bay: (08:24)
People that signed up for estimates that never got an estimate. And we would call through this. And I don't know. I was never really taught how to actually make the call. I just thought, "Hey, I'm going to introduce myself. If the person doesn't want to do an estimate, that's okay. But I'm just going to come in and tell them that I would like to stop by their house. And if they don't want me there, that's okay." And I think a lot of the tonality, looking back and what I try to teach now, is I think your mentality really drives a lot of your tonality. When people try to fake their tonality and try to make their voice sound a certain way, I find that that's a lot harder than just coming from a place of, "You know what? I did a lot of research on you. I don't really need you to talk to me right now. If you're open to, I would love to." You can even hear it in my tone right now. So, I think it came pretty naturally. To me, teaching it was much harder.
Corey Frank: (09:15)
Well, if this is a microcosm of how you sell on the phone, and certainly from watching some of your podcast and your content on LinkedIn, I think it is, it's that you're a three-dimensional sales professional. You use your hands. You use your body language. I was talking with a rep yesterday and we were showing the old Toy Story clip of Tom Hanks, who's on camera doing the Toy Story read-along. So, it's a voiceover, right? He's an animated character. And it's not like he's sitting down behind a desk saying, "You are not a toy, and what's the next line?" I mean, he was standing up. He was the typical Tom Hanks oversized, animated self. "You are not a toy." And even though they're not recording any of that, they just want his voice and his...
Corey Frank: (10:05)
And Chris, I think Jason probably competes with you with how many different positions he's had in his short lifespan. But one of your positions you worked at, at actor's theater, at dinner theater. I recall, I think, one of our earlier episodes from a few years ago or so, and you probably got a front row of how actors and certainly you did your share of door-to-door selling. Is there something to this actor door-to-door selling face-to-face and using that to translate well on the inside and for phones?
Chris Beall: (10:34)
Yeah, I think it's a mix. It's funny. I am in complete agreement with Jason that it comes from inside. Your mentality conditions your tonality. I love that. I don't know if you said conditions, but I did and it was fun. I liked the extra syllables there. They sounded poetic to me. But I do believe that's a fact of the world. And I think we just heard something, by the way. We know there's a lot of research that says introverts make better salespeople than extroverts. And nobody really knows why. This is more extreme, Jason. You're saying that actual shyness, which came from somewhere and hopefully you haven't expunged completely because you're still quite good, but that shyness is a great foundation for, I don't know how to put it exactly, but I remember as a door-to-door salesperson, I thought of it as innocence.
Chris Beall: (11:28)
So, when I would knock on your door, I would say, "Hi, I'm Chris Beall. I'm your new Fuller Brush man. You probably don't know what Fuller Brush is. I sure don't." That was what I said when you opened the door. And then I'd just stand there. And I couldn't think of anything more truthful to say. But I was certainly vulnerable. I mean, "I sure don't," is not something that comes out of a salesperson's mouth when it comes to, do you know what you... "I don't even know who I'm working for, right? I sure don't." And people would always, after a little hesitation, all of them would say, "How can I help you? How can I help you?" And I think that's a big part of sales is its mutuality. And if we're always got that push and that desire for you to do something, you're going to push back. And if we're okay with however it goes, we give you room to come toward us.
Jason Bay: (12:21)
One thing that you mentioned on the podcast we were on, Chris, that just blew my mind in the way that you explained it, was you talked about the first seven seconds and the fact that it's less about managing our fear as the salesperson and more about helping the prospect manage their fear. So, if you chunk that up a little bit and think about the psychology behind that, I think that one thing you need to be really aware of, and one thing I've just always thought about, is the other person. So, when I would teach people to go door-to-door, it was little things that I would notice where, "Hey, when that little old person, that man or woman, opened the door, did you notice that they seemed very uncomfortable and almost a little scared of you. Actually? Why do you think that that was?" And it was little things like the screen door. "You opened up the screen door and you're sitting inside the screen door when they open their front door."
Jason Bay: (13:53)
"Don't do that. How would you feel if someone was up in your face?" And I had this guy. He was a football player at OSU. He's 6'1", 210 pounds. He's a huge dude. And the person was clearly scared of him at their door. It's this person that they don't know. There was other little things about how you stand. Are you squared up to the person versus at an angle? If there's stairway going up, are you maybe down a step so the person can just look down? It's just less threatening. And I think that the sitting in the other seat of the other person and just thinking about what is it like to receive, be on the receiving end of what I'm doing, just being conscious of that is going to drive a lot of your tonality. If you're thinking about the other person and how you appear, how you sound, how you're coming off, that's a really big part.
Jason Bay: (14:40)
And the second thing I'd add to this is something Ryan and I talked about was, I want to come off as a peer. There's a lot of stuff I've seen and heard content-wise out there in cold calling where you want to act lost and put um's and uh's into your intro on purpose. And I'm just thinking if any executive that I've called that's picked up the phone, they don't want to help a lost person. They're way too busy for that. You know what I mean? I need to be very sure that I called you on purpose, Corey. I called you on purpose, Chris. And I don't know if I can help you or not, but I did do this with some intention.
Corey Frank: (15:16)
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. The use of uh's and um's, I'm a big advocate of that. So, that's where I would politely disagree on a sales approach. Because I don't think it's necessarily being lost. I do like the broken wing mentality dependent on what type of person I'm calling. But there's a great book by Susan Cain called Quiet. It's been about for about 10 years ago. And she quotes a University of Michigan study where they had a team of survey interviewers, just doing public surveys at the university, under the guise that the most successful interviewers, the ones who convinced respondents to stay on the line and answer the most questions, spoke moderately fast and paused occasionally with filler uh or um kind of statements. And she contrast that with the interviewers that made no pauses at all did less poorly. And the rationale behind that study is it elicits authenticity, this concept that never trust any man who doesn't walk around with a little bit of a limp.
Corey Frank: (16:29)
No one is that polished. That's just a philosophy. The beautiful thing about sales, right? Whether you use Sandler, whether you use pitch, whether you use [Taj 00:16:36], whether you use QBS, whether you use spin, is to know all these methodologies, I think, makes everybody, and this is what we try to teach here at Branch 49 is, learn from the masters. There's a great movie we like to quote, have all of our new folks listen to. Chris and I have spoken about it a few times, called Jiro Dreams of Sushi.
Jason Bay: (16:57)
Oh, yeah.
Corey Frank: (16:57)
Right? So, it a great documentary about the only three star Michelin-rated sushi restaurant in the world. And I've been there to. It's at the Ginza subway station in Tokyo. There's not even a restroom attached to it. And Joel [Busharon 00:17:12], the other esteemed three star chef, best restaurants in the world, and Ramsey, talk about the same concept that Jiro does, and I think I hear that in both you, Chris and Jason, is they don't hire chefs and teach them how to cook. They hire chefs to teach them how to taste first. "I've got to teach you how to taste. I've got to develop your palette and then I can teach you how to cook." And what you're saying about don't be squared up, hey, knock on the door, knock on the door and then maybe walk to the back of the porch and then do the, "Oh. Oh, hey, how are you?" Right? Versus open the door and you're there. And I love that nuance and applying a lot of those nuances to the phone on the delivery on the tone. And that's why I'm a big advocate on the ah's and um's.
Corey Frank: (18:00)
Oren Klaff, who's been on the show several times, from Pitch Anything and Flip The Script, talks about using hot cognitions and cold cognitions. And cold cognitions, speed, feeds, facts, numbers, data you're going to do low and slow. When you're talking about hot cognitions, you almost want to... If you listen to Elon Musk, he's always ahead of his [skis 00:18:26]. It's like his brain is firing at it so many synapse that he can't sometimes keep up. And it's not enthusiasm. It's just authenticity. It's, as the word used, Chris, innocence. I love that. Innocence. It's endearing sometimes. But it's a magical thing, isn't it, to do what we get to do? Ryan calls himself a professional. He was a professional salesperson, and now he's a professional caller. And I really like that. So, what are your guys thoughts on that? Are there natural callers or do you have to go through this tasting school first before you can really get to the promised land in selling?
Chris Beall: (19:08)
We've taken up training people, and I think training is a funny term but it actually is in this case, on how to experience a great cold call by doing one. And when you really think about it, it is more of a tasting experience than it is a cooking experience. We do all the cooking. We cook up the script. We describe and have them practice what the different parts are about. But there's a funny thing about the sense of taste, so to speak, in sales, which is we can't taste unless we're under pressure. We taste nothing in a sales situation unless it's real. And so we can role play all day long. And then as soon as we're in the real deal, we're not that person anymore, we're somebody else. So, we need to learn to be ourselves, that is, to taste authentically, so to speak, when we know that that dish we're tasting is going out there to a very, very particular kind of customer, the kind who shows up at that three-star restaurant and sends stuff back if it isn't plated quite right, much less if it doesn't taste perfect.
Chris Beall: (20:12)
So, I think that that's actually what I feel like we do in Flight School. I love that analogy. We let people experience the taste of a cold call by doing it under pressure. Then when they go off and they're doing it themselves later, there is something to talk about when they get off the beam, so to speak, when they drift. There's something to talk about because they're actually aware of what it tastes like to do it right. And yet until you get there, it's like unless you're under pressure performing in sales, it is like an actor, but it's like playing a musical instrument. I play very differently when my audience is me. I play a little bit differently when my audience is Helen. I play poorly when my audience is Kelly's boyfriend Dave, who's a master pianist.
Chris Beall: (21:05)
That's all it takes, right? Because you put enough pressure on me and that ease of being myself at the piano dissolves. And so practicing under pressure, I remember this when I was a young pianist. The hardest part of getting ready for a big music competition was figuring out how to put myself under enough pressure to break my ability to play that particular piece, which I had now over-learned.
Corey Frank: (21:29)
Really?
Chris Beall: (21:30)
And it was very, very hard to find. I once had the luxury in Phoenix of having Liberace show up.
Corey Frank: (21:36)
Really? Oh my gosh.
Chris Beall: (21:37)
10:30 at night at this piano store where I'm practicing, because it was the only place I could find this particular piano that was identical to the one that I was going to play at [Greti Gamich 00:21:47]. And Liberace shows up to buy a piano at 10:30 at night. And I don't know who in this audience even knows who Liberace is. He was a very flamboyant guy and wore a lot of rings and some sort of outrageous clothing and all this. To others, right? To him, it was just who he was. But truly, truly a master pianist. This guy is off the charts good. And it was so valuable to me because Liberace walks in and asked me, "What are you playing?" And now I've got to play this Bartok piece-
Corey Frank: (22:22)
Oh my God.
Chris Beall: (22:22)
... [crosstalk 00:22:22] Liberace. And it actually is what prepared me for the competition. All the other work was worth nothing other than the over-learning, but the pressure was worth everything. And I think that being yourself under pressure is true master. That's that's when you know you're a master. It's not what your performance is under pressure. It's just, can you be yourself under pressure? Imogene Coca told me this at that dinner theater one night. I said, "How can you be so funny on stage?" And she says, "I've done it so much that I'm still me."
Corey Frank: (22:58)
That's beautiful.
Jason Bay: (23:00)
I think the practice piece is so important, and being able to get your reps in so you don't have to think about what you're saying. That's where, when you've been doing it long enough, when I get in the zone the most is when I'm doing a training call and sometimes it doesn't happen and it's frustrating because I'm just distracted or off for some reason. But when I get in an hour call with 30, 40 reps or whatever it might be, and I'm very in the zone and I'm just talking and I'm not holding back. I used to have, when I first started training folks, the VP of sales was on the call participating. I would play the game of, "Oh man, well, this person's been running this business longer than I have, and they got more experience than I do," whatever, versus just focusing on delivering the message. I just hadn't done it in that environment enough.
Jason Bay: (23:44)
And I think it's totally the same with cold calling, like you're talking about, where have you just gotten in enough reps to not have to think about what you're going to say so much and really listen to the person so that I can hear the nuance in their tonality. One thing I ask reps a lot and challenge them on when I talk about cold calling is one of the three things that you need to do is actually get better at listening. You're not a very good listener. And there's a book called You're Not Listening, and it's prescribed reading for my wife. But one of the things that she talks about a lot in that book that's interesting and what I ask reps is, "What is this prospect thinking that they are not saying?" So, when someone says, in a cold call, "We're not interested," or, "We already have one of those. We already do that. I'm busy. Can we talk next year?" whatever it might be, are you really listening to the words and the tonality that is behind that? You know what I mean?
Corey Frank: (24:44)
Yup.
Jason Bay: (24:45)
There's so much more nuance behind that. I worked with another company that was a staffing company. The question they would get a lot is... Because they don't want to be branded as a staffing company because it's more of a software platform that they have where staffing is just a component of it, but they get lumped into the staffing category a lot. And I asked them, "So, when people ask you on the phone, 'Oh, are you guys a staffing company?' what's the question behind that question/" because they're not just wanting to know, are you a staffing company? Because you could just say, "No, we're not. Here's what we are instead." I want to answer the question that they're not asking. The question that they're not asking, I mean, there's a lot of them, but really what they're asking is, "Well, we're already trying to fix this problem. And I think it's doing the job right now. Why would we want to do something else right now when this is working?"
Jason Bay: (25:34)
Or maybe they're wanting to know about your credibility because you called and you're this random person that they've never talked to before. You need to answer those questions when you're answering that question. You need to really think about, "What are they feeling? What is the question behind this question? What are they thinking that they're not saying?" That type of, I don't know if you call it tactical empathy or whatever you want to call it, but that's the type of stuff that you can do when you've gotten your reps in and you're not thinking so much about what you're going to say and you're really just tuned in to the other person.
Corey Frank: (26:07)
That's developing trust, right? Chris, I think, talked about that several times is that sometimes you have to like something before you even understand it. And part of getting to that like certainly is trust. So, that's why I think we led off this call with truly something that was very, very evident, which is your tone. I think the authenticity and the tonality says, "Listen, I may not need your product, but I like what I'm hearing. I'm not threatened by what I'm hearing enough to say, I can ask you a question. Well, are you guys like X or are you guys like Y?"
Corey Frank: (26:46)
Versus sometimes, as we've all heard, it's happened to me, folks will hang up on me before I get past 27 seconds as clearly I was off. Maybe they were having a bad day. Maybe it was the fourth call of the day that they had like that or a plethora of other reasons. But if I get that over and over again, as the connected cell weapon certainly would reveal to me, my coach should be able to say, "Wait a minute. Corey, the last 27 conversations he's had, he's got a hang-up past 18 seconds."
Announcer: (27:17)
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So, when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right cold call screenplays to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire TAM, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branchfortynine.com. Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
Can you truly say that you’re always on your customer’s side? Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors, can. At Kaeser, providing support for the products they sell is everything, explains this week’s guest on Market Dominance Guys. “It’s always about the customer,” Matt states. In this third of three conversations between Matt and our hosts, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank, the discussion centers on being 100% committed to supporting customers — those who have put themselves in your hands because you’ve convinced them to trust you. Corey explains that this starts with that first conversation, the cold call. “You are the product that builds trust first,” he says. “The actual product you’re selling comes second.” Join our three sales experts on this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Being There for Your Customers.”
About Our Guest
Matt McCorkle is Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors. He has earned both a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in mechanical engineering and has now been with Kaeser Compressors for 13 years.
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Here is the full transcript to this episode:
Corey Frank (01:20:)
Yeah, I have a theory probably that Chris, certainly knowing you as long as I have, that connect and sell, and Matt, I think you'd probably agree with this as a testament, is that it's not a product, it's not even a weapon as you guys like to say internally, but the medium is the message. The trust that you've engendered with people who are sitting in the front row of a workshop, people who you meet on a barefoot run, people who you meet in the dreariest German bars in O'Hare, wherever it is, that you are the product, which builds trust first. Then the product comes second. Matt, I think that you can't have a company like Kaeser that's been around for over 100 years and certainly, you have technical competence, the company does. You have industry competence, but I think, probably, the leadership that continues to come generation after generation continues to engender that trust.
Kaeser is a name that I can pick up the phone at 3:00 in the morning if I have a problem with. If I have a problem, I know that Kaeser's going to try to figure out a manufacturer solution to help me. Sometimes it's a little tougher to get when it's pure software and there's no touch. When it's e-commerce alone, you miss out on certainly some conversations like this at an enterprise level, or at a more intimate level. You have just the brand promise, the website, the commercials, Somehow to sometimes drive that, and it'll be interesting to see if those companies end up being as durable as certainly as ConnectAndSell or Kaeser.
Matt McCorkle (02:55):
Chris and I were actually talking about that as it relates to ConnectAndSell. Building trust, getting meetings with folks because as I was calling with [Cheryl 00:03:04], we're trying to set up some virtual meetings, phone meetings. It's not common in our industry and it's because of exactly what you put your finger on there. This is a hard product, it's a piece of machinery in somebody's plant. They want to know that they can believe that you have the absolute best machinery ever. It's just amazing. It's reliable, it's efficient. It's just an incredible piece of machinery, but if you can't support it, they don't want it anywhere near their plant. That support piece, that you're going to have somebody here at 3:00 in the morning, they're going to know how to put it back together if something catastrophic happens. That's really critical in our industry.
When it comes to ConnectAndSell, a lot of times you're pushing for that face-to-face meeting. The way, certainly, we use the sales process after that is to demonstrate that not only do we have business outcomes, but we also have the infrastructure to support these business outcomes in terms of technicians and parts support and things like that. That is definitely a piece that comes into play. I feel that it is more difficult to sell remotely, that you need a little bit of that face-to-face touch. Now, certainly, we're not giving up on doing things from a virtual perspective because it's such a powerful time saving, but at some point in that process, you've got to make that connection.
Corey Frank (>04:26):
I commend you, Matt. I mean, you think about the stewardship that you are responsible for, for this 119-year-old company, is that what it is?
Matt McCorkle (04:26):
Yes.
Corey Frank (04:36):
The stewardship that you're responsible for that company, the leap of faith, of trust that you had to have to say, "I want to take this approach not only from selling but also from certainly the technology benefit of ConnectAndSell." Can't underestimate that, right? I think that there's going to be a reciprocal effect as you can continue to see the market dominance effects occur. You're number three in the US. Hey, I'm sure when you're on the episode and on the show maybe next year, maybe it'll be number two. Maybe that'll be a takeaway. The math says three years, right, Chris? We got another year to cram it in, so we'll see how it works.
I imagine that it'll be fun as you look at the legacy. Is the reciprocal effect of Matt McCorkle inside a company like Kaeser going to be affecting the results five years from now, 10 years from now, 15 years from now? You probably have clients that have been with that organization for five years, for 10 years, for 15 years, and they continue to be fans of Kaeser. Those are some of the larger ramifications of focusing on market dominance and the strategy, and really the residue of that, or the DNA level of that is that you build trust. You're building trust certainly with your team, with your board, with your leadership team, by "This is the way we are taking these mantles and planting them here, but this is how we're going to sell." It's really a great thing to see, wouldn't you say, Chris?
Chris Beall (06:05):
I tell you for me, I don't know how to put, spine-tingling. When we first engaged with Kaeser, I kept it quiet internally. I don't really talk to people about most of the deals I'm working on anyway, but I just thought, "Oh, the skepticism level is going to be so great." It's like why would a 117-year-old at the time, German air compressor company be an appropriate partner for ConnectAndSell, right? I mean, who are they going to have calling and who are they going to call and why are they going to do it? It sure doesn't look like Silicon Valley to me. I had actually more confidence, I remember, leaving that test drive with James Townsend and he said, "Well, what do you think?" I said, "These guys are going to take over their industry," and that was just walking out of the test drive.
That wasn't just because the brats and beer were so good, even though, quite frankly, they were off the charts. That was one of the amazing things about being able to go physically in a test drive. I mean, I always ask two questions. Do these guys have the goods and do they have the will? If they have the goods and the will, are they willing to show somebody that they're competent, make it clear that the competence is there, and make it even more clear that they're on that other person's side, that individual person's side, right? That's all you have to really do in a business, but everything works against you. Short-termism works against you. Commission plans work against you. How people get moved up in organizations or moved out, the very short tenure of sales leaders works against you.
All this stuff works against you, and it really takes depth, which most companies have a hard time finding, in order to say, "We really mean it. We really are competent. We really do know what we're doing, and by the way, we really are on your side. Not kind of on your side, we're actually on your side. We can afford to be on your side. That's how good we are. We can afford, and we can't afford not to be. We come all the way over there and yeah, you don't get to abuse us. Yeah, we're not here to fetch another rock for your rock pile. We get those games. We don't play those games, but frankly, if you're sincere in wanting to solve your problems, we're going to be even more sincere in trying to help you solve those problems and let the chips fall."
That's what I felt when we left Milwaukee that day. That's why I told James, "These guys are going to dominate their market," because the sincerity, the competence was clearly there. I mean, it was obvious, right? As you point out, you don't get to be a 117-year-old industrial company, or any kind of company, unless the competence is there. It was that willingness and the will to win, combined with the willingness to actually be on the customers' side.
Those are the things that come at a conflict because many times folks want to win. They want to win at the margin at the expense of the customer. At the margin it's tempting to take from the customer, rather than to have the discipline to say, "No, the way we do this is we are always on their side," because let's face it. We're the doctor, right? I'm a doctor, the patient's unconscious. I'm not supposed to go and look in their wallet while they're unconscious and "Oh yeah, I'll fix the gallbladder, but by the way, oh look! Nice little AmEx card here. I think I'll run up something on Amazon for myself."
Chris Beall (10:25):
It's very similar. If you're Kaeser, you're the expert. You have a kind of a ... I don't know if it's a fiduciary responsibility, but the responsibility of the expert toward the person who has thrown themselves into your hands and said, "Okay, I'll let you help me." I think when you do it that way, and I look at ConnectAndSell and ask, "What are we good for?" We are good for getting those trust-based conversations, those trust outcome conversations, to have them fast enough that then you can deal with all of that timing stress which shows up in business, because all businesses, as we said, the overhead of a business is like a racehorse. It eats while you sleep, right? It's not so wonderful. We have timing stress, so how do we deal with the timing stress that draws us away from being on the customers' side?
One of the ways we do it is to broaden our pipeline, get the portfolio really wide, the funnel really wide, and make sure that it's paved entirely with trust, so that then we have, frankly, the luxury of harvesting that trust over time, as it makes sense for the customer. We're on their side one more way. In one funny way, we serve Customer A by engaging with Customer B, because Customer A might not be ready for a while. Customer B will sustain us while Customer A's need matures, or their understanding matures. We're actually serving each individual customer, oddly enough, by broadening our pipeline, by increasing the number of opportunities that we have at different stages, because it makes us more robust and the more robust we are, more capable we are of service.
Corey Frank (12:06):
You're also inhibiting ... make it a little bit more difficult for your competition, by at least having a trust-based conversation, even if they're not ready to move forward for your competition. That's part of the collection process that a lot of organizations underestimate, of "I'd rather send an email. These people aren't ready to move forward." No, no, no. Did you have a conversation? That's a good thing, especially if it's memorable, and it's part of a good balanced nutritious breakfast every month to continue to do, and have a conversation with those folks. Sorry, Matt, go ahead.
Matt McCorkle (12:40):
Yeah, both of those things are exactly how we've approached it and really it starts at the top when you talk about being on the customer side, Chris. I mean, Mr. Kaeser, this is a third-generation owner of the company, and it's always about the customer. It's not about selling another compressor. It's not about maximizing the size of the compressor or the size of the compressor sale. It's always been what keeps manufacturers running the longest and for the lowest cost, in terms of operating cost, not necessarily purchase price. That's what we're focused on. It starts with Mr. Kaeser, my boss, Frank, that's what he instills in everybody. That's absolutely it, Chris, and that's why it works. That's what leads to, I believe, the dominance. The sales cycles are long. The times when people ... you can't necessarily force it.
In some cases, you can make the business case to do it now. In many cases you can, but not in all cases, but when you're having those trust-based conversations, when people realize we're willing to share our knowledge, we just want you to get better. We want to help you manufacture better, more reliably. We want to lower your costs. We've got some advice for you. It is probably a little different than what you're going to hear from others, but it doesn't necessarily involve buying anything. That's where the conversation starts and that's where it continues.
Corey Frank (13:55):
Bingo. That authentic message there that is what you're selling on that cold call is, "Let me leave your world just a little bit brighter, be a little bit more educated, regardless of if you buy anything for me. I'm here to move you down that Primrose path." That's a beautiful thing.
Matt McCorkle (14:14):
You asked me a question earlier, Corey, about what is it I'm tweaking and I kind of missed that a little bit. I would like to have another take at it because I am working on something, and what that something is is not needing to have the affirmation or be liked at the end of that call. I think this is a really powerful thing. I hear this from Oren Klaff, I listen to some of my best reps. You have to remove it from your mind completely. That's very difficult for me. I want to feel like, "Oh, this person liked me at the end of the call." It doesn't matter. If I have some value for him, but he doesn't like me at the end, or I'm challenging the way he's thinking about compressed air, about his business, about improving things, then I owe it to him to challenge him or her, challenge them in thinking about it. I think that's what ultimately leads to the best value-added conversations that we have on the phone.
Corey Frank (15:04):
Well, we just had a big event last week, Oren and the team, and us in San Diego. We had a couple of hundred folks and that came up time and again, Matt, where we talked about the four foundations. This is the "Pitch Anything" methodology. You need humor, curiosity, intrigue. The fourth element is where a lot of folks miss out on because of the need for approval, and that is tension. Humor, intrigue, curiosity, and tension. Human language was developed to communicate tension. It wasn't to communicate, "Give me a venti Mocha Macchiato, et cetera." It was to communicate, "Listen, there's a big sabertooth tiger over on that hill. Don't go over there." It's tough for me to do that with hand signals and grunts, so language by itself, stories, Beowulf, our oldest ancient verbal traditions, were to communicate tension. Somehow when we move to sales, right, we leave a lot of that because we have supplicative behavior.
Matt McCorkle (16:07):
Yes.
Corey Frank (16:08):
Certainly, the Sandler methodology has two major functions. You're financially secure and you don't need the business, and I'm a psychologist on a Broadway play, and my needs are not met by my prospects. My needs are met by the people in my immediate circle, could be my dog, could be my spouse, could be my children, could be my boss, but outside of that, maybe my industry. Outside of that, if I'm going for my customers to get my mental, emotional needs met, it's going to be a lonely life. You better have an office building, as I say, that's on the first floor, because if you have it on the second or third, you're going to be too tempted to jump out that window.
Chris Beall (16:49):
I never thought about jumping out the window, Corey. I was raised in one of those ranch-style houses.
Corey Frank (16:56):
Oh, that's right. Yes, you were.
Chris Beall (16:58):
I'd be able to go up on the roof and jump off that and it still wasn't high enough to get hurt, so what can I say? I think it's fascinating when the average person who's not in business thinks about business. They tend to think about words like cutthroat competition. They think about concepts, making the number and you're going to force things to have all that kind of stuff. That's not actually how it's done at the highest levels by the most successful people. It's just not. Listening to Matt, it's almost like it's an unfair trick to sincerely be on your customers' side while working your ass off in the back to make sure that you have the best products and that when it comes time to deal with the disasters or the problems in the field, that you are there.
That sounds ridiculous, right?
Corey Frank (17:53):
What's the catch?
Chris Beall (17:54):
What's the catch, and the catch is it's kind of like a patent, right? What do we do when we get a patent? We make a trade with the public. As you know, I've got one or two of these things, and I've been schooled by one of the best patent attorneys in the world, the best that I know, Sid Leach out there in North Scottsdale now. Sid, he sat me down my first patent and he said, "Look Chris, this is a simple trade. You're trading exclusivity, a monopoly for 17 years or whatever it is with the public, and you're doing an exchange for teaching them precisely how to make your product, to make your invention." That's the trade, right? When you make it that clear, it's like, "Oh, so I better do a really good job of teaching them of disclosing exactly how to make this thing."
I have to get out of my heart the desire for secrecy. In the same way, I have to get out of my heart the desire to be liked because it actually works against the purpose. The purpose is if I'm on your side, I'm going to share with you what I know. I'm not sharing it with you to make you feel a certain way about me, but because I sincerely believe that this information can be of value to you. Maybe right now, you're not very comfortable with it. That's good. It's just the way things are, but I can only share from the perspective of what I know, and you'll take it from the perspective of where you are at and how that makes you feel about me is totally irrelevant because otherwise, I'm a thief. I'm stealing your approval in exchange for what's good for you, that I believe is good for you anyway, which is my knowledge.
It's the same kind of thing, right? I'm going to teach in exchange for an interesting kind of exclusivity, which is you will exclusively trust me and not my competitor. It's very much like that same sort of trade, it's just not as black and white. I think the issue in both cases is the temptation to not go all-in on removing that hesitation from your heart. You've got to go all-in on the commitment and to be on the customers' side. You have to go all-in on the commitment to share what you know. You can't be cagey. If you're being cagey, you're playing a short game, but life kind of is a long game. Business is a long game, and as we all know, businesses are more different from each other than people are. People are constrained, as animals were constrained by our biology.
We share similarities that are deeper than our differences because if not, our ancestors were dead. Dead ancestors don't leave a lot of progeny, therefore, we're not here, right? Companies aren't like that. Companies can have immense complexity, but it's kind of funny. The biology of sincerity, so to speak, of customers' need to have somebody on their side, who's good at what they do, actually makes great companies like Kaeser much more like other are great companies that have stood the test of time because somebody at the top continues to insist, "We're not only great at this, that's what we do back here, but we're also on the customers' side. Not 60%, 70%, 80%. It's 100%." It might even be over a 100%.
That's why they're still around, and we exist as a company to help those companies have that first conversation, that second conversation, that third conversation that leads to that mutual exploration. You've asked me before, "What business are you in?" I say, "We curate dominance." Some people say dominance means hurting other people. It's about the competition. It's not, it's the natural mathematical outcome of doing two things well. One is what you do and the other is who you do it for.
Matt McCorkle (22:00):
By the way, one of the things that draws me to your podcast that I love when I see it every time I see the little logo is the two folks on top of the pile, holding their flags, standing on bodies, laying there. When I saw this the first time I was just cracking up because on the one hand, it's very combative. You talk, I think, about blood. I'm like, "Oh, here's blood on the ground," but there's humor in it. There's great humor in it because you're absolutely right. That's really not what business is like in reality, but that's what we're pushing for. It's just a great image. I love it.
Corey Frank (22:38):
Well this has been wonderful. Matt, It's great to finally have you on the program. Like I said, your story and your journey has been great content for us these 100+ episodes. Thanks for taking the time. Those Germans, they run a tight ship so it's good for you to kind of jump out for hour and a half or so out of your busy day on a Friday to partake with us. Any final thoughts, Chris? We're going to get Matt back about a year from now in his final year of market dominance and tally up the scores.
Chris Beall (23:07):
Yeah, well it's an assured outcome. It's happening, it's going to continue to happen, and it's truly an honor and privilege to be able to partner with Kaeser. It's just an amazing thing. The path was all full of strange chunks of luck, right? I think we might have found each other eventually, anyway [crosstalk 00:23:29] because Matt went to Outbound. Outbound is where we kind of go hang out, but I'm so glad that we managed to get it together back then. There's a handful of customers that we work with that, every day, I think about, and I remind myself of what the world can be like. Working with Matt, working with the team at Kaeser, that's in that list. That's pre-breakfast every day.
Corey Frank (23:59):
That's funny.
Matt McCorkle (23:59):
Well, thank you. Thank you both for having me on. I do hope it encourages somebody that might be in a different industry and not think about ConnectAndSell working for them to really evaluate because it is absolutely a game-changing technology, but it's also a game-changing company. How Chris runs it is very refreshing and just very open. Chris, you're talking about us sharing openly with the customer. You're so much on our side. It's unbelievable and that's, again, very refreshing. True partnership and I really love working with you again. Thanks for having me on here.
Corey Frank (24:34):
All right. For the Sage of Sales, the birthday boy, Chris Beall, we're looking for another 110 years or so. Maybe ConnectAndSell will catch up to Kaeser here. We'll be celebrating that, or our progeny will be celebrating that in a future podcast. Until next time, this is Corey Frank with Chris Beall with the Market Dominance Guys.
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Nobody likes to be told what to do. But in sales that’s exactly what we do: We tell our prospects what to do. With each cold call or discovery call, we’re basically saying, “Buy this!” No wonder prospects on the receiving end of a sales call feel apprehensive and try to end the call quickly! Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, for a dissection of this sales problem. How do you take a prospect from that state of apprehension, where they fear they’re going to be sold to, and get them to a state of pride, where they are comfortable enough to share their company’s pain and open the door to true discovery? Join Matt, Chris, and Corey as they talk turkey on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Sales and the State of Apprehension."
About Our Guest
Matt McCorkle is Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors. He has earned both a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in mechanical engineering and has now been with Kaeser Compressors for 13 years.
Listen to the next installment of this interview with Matt McCorkle
Being There for Your Customers And the first one -
EP107: On the Phone, They’ll Tell You the Truth! ----more----
Here is the complete transcript of this episode:
Announcer (00:06): Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Announcer (00:24): Nobody likes to be told what to do, but in sales, that's exactly what we do. We tell our prospects what to do. With each cold call or discovery call, we're basically saying, "Buy this." No wonder prospects on the receiving end of a sales call feel apprehensive and try to end the call quickly.
Announcer (00:40): Matt McCorkle, manager and branch operations for Kaeser Compressors, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, for a dissection of this sales problem. How do you take a prospect from that state of apprehension, where they fear they're going to be sold to, and get them to a state of pride where they're comfortable enough to share their company's pain and open the door for true discovery? Join Matt, Chris and Corey, as they talk turkey on this Market, Dominance Guys episode, Sales and the State of Apprehension.
Corey Frank (01:15): And so Chris and Matt maybe can talk a little bit about that, about how the discovery call is maybe a little bit different than most people think.
Chris Beall (01:23): I'll tell you one thing that's different, is discovery call doesn't have any piece of it that belongs in the cold call or the follow-up call to get a meeting. The psychology of getting a meeting is so radically different from the psychology of having a discovery call with somebody, which is an exploration.
Chris Beall (01:42): I mean, you don't ambush somebody in order to explore something with them. You ambush somebody in order to see whether they'll agree to get past the ambush and have a chat with you about something that could go a little bit deeper and be more legitimately exploratory. And I mean, the mistake we see all the time, I see it all the time is folks going, "Oh, I got the meeting." In fact, I was just listening to one of my own reps the other day. She had the meeting, she had it on the calendar for a date and then started asking questions.
Chris Beall (02:15): The questions that you would ask in discovery. And after the third question, the prospect said, "You know what? I don't think this is for me." Now, I went and looked at that particular company. They could use ConnectAndSell all day long. In fact, Kaeser would be an example of the kind of company that we might have rejected because we'd go, "Well, I don't know, [inaudible 00:02:36] using the phone?" And it'd be, "Well, not really." "How many reps do you have or are using?" How many hours did they blah, blah, blah. Was that kind of question.
Chris Beall (02:45): So believing in the meeting as the only product that you're selling in an ambush conversation or follow up conversation, I believe is a big key, and then believing the potential value of that meeting for the human being you're talking with, even if you're never going to do business with them is the other key.
Chris Beall (03:05): And this is where we've actually learned from some folks like Scott Webb over at HUB International and Cheryl Turner’s picked up these techniques. Scott told me once, he said, when I insist that somebody take the meeting, I feel like I'm pulling them out of the way of a speeding bus. I don't need their permission to save their life. And I think that attitude is super important. And you have that moment where you've gotten enough trust to move into the meet, I'll call it, the middle part of the cold call, where, okay, we get through that, now what? The answer is now what is, we should meet. Not, we should talk more about the meeting.
Chris Beall (03:49): And Cheryl's got another thing she does, which I think is beautiful. And she had a CEO on the phone and I think she mentioned this one. She was on the podcast, he's putting gas in his car and he's standing in the rain. And he says, "Cheryl, I'm putting gas in my car. I'm standing in the rain. Of course, I don't have my calendar available." And she says, "Fantastic. Tell you what, I'm a morning person. I'll shoot you something for next Thursday. We'll move it around if we have to."
Chris Beall (04:12): Because keeping in mind that the prospect's desire is to get off this call with their self-image intact. That's their only desire that never changes. Doesn't matter what they say. That's what they want. And that your view is they're better off if they take the meeting. A lot better off. So I'm going to make sure they take the meeting and I'll use the fact that they want to get off the call. Great. We're in alignment now, let's get this over with and at least get a verbal.
Chris Beall (04:42): I won't go into discovery too far. You know how I do discovery? I mean, I do everything and I believe in sales. We should always do everything based on what we assess as the emotional state of the individual we're talking with and what is the next most useful emotional state they could transition to.
Chris Beall (05:00): I don't believe in next steps. I believe in next state. A next state, because sales is an emotional journey, always a hundred percent of the time. And if the prospect's in an emotional state that is not conducive to further exploration, I want to help them get in an emotional state that is conducive to further exploration because that's where the value is going to be, is in the exploration.
Chris Beall (05:25): So even in discovery, I figure they're starting off in a state of apprehension because they figure they're going to be sold to. What state do I want to get them into? A state of pride, because pride gives you comfort and when you're comfortable, you can speak freely. So I want them to settle in and speak with pride. That's why I ask that question that everybody knows I ask. I always ask, "Where are you in the face of our blue whirling planet right now?" And the reason I ask it is I want us to feel like we're together. Blue whirling planet, see earth at a distance. And I want them to speak with pride to where they live because that emotion now replaces the emotion of apprehension.
Chris Beall (06:03): You can't have two contradictory emotions at once. Our old brain is too primitive for that. It doesn't know how to do that. It makes a choice. How am I going to feel right now? And the choice is actually made for it, so to speak. And that emotion is all there is, everything else is irrelevant. The question is, is it a useful one for doing the work that needs to be done or not?
Chris Beall (06:28): I was talking to a guy today who's used to be a minor league ballplayer. And I said, "If you put you and me out at the plate, facing a major league pitcher, your emotional state will be very different from mine. Mine will be apprehension, bordering on actual rank fear. And no matter what that ball does, I'm bailing out. I'm out of there. Whereas you, your emotional state's different." Maybe I have the ability to hit that baseball. Maybe not, who knows? We'll never find out because I've got to get into an emotional state where I'm capable of performing.
Chris Beall (07:05): I think that's what we do, primarily in sales, is we help people go from the emotional state they're into one that would be more conducive to getting to an exploration of possibilities. And when we think of it differently, I think we get in trouble.
Matt McCorkle (07:23): Yeah, I really like that analogy of being on the phone with somebody and the value of the meeting is saving them from an oncoming train or a bus or whatever you're saying. What we say is, if this one isn't nearly as impactful, but when we're training we say, you are giving the person you're talking to a hundred dollars. Are you going to be excited and happy to give this person a hundred dollars because you're saving them that money simply by showing up and showing them some of the knowledge that we have at Kaeser for their operation? Absolutely. You're not taking a hundred bucks from them. You're not wasting their time, you're giving them a hundred dollars and here's the dollars of value you're giving them. That's the one we use, pretend like you got a hundred dollars in your pocket and you're just walking up to somebody and say, "Here you go. No strings attached, here's a hundred bucks." Helps with that confidence, because you're absolutely right, Corey, we run into [crosstalk 00:08:12].
Corey Frank (08:12): Well, that's what I'm getting at, is your target audience mainly engineers, mainly highly technical folks. Maybe on the shop floor, maybe foreman, et cetera, correct?
Matt McCorkle (08:24): Yes, absolutely.
Corey Frank (08:25): So Chris, from my perspective as a sales guy, do I have to change my tone knowing I'm not talking to an IT person or a marketing person or we're all just humans and the tone is the tone, is the tone and it doesn't matter if I'm talking to left brain, right brain. Do you coach a company like Kaeser and do you help Matt coach his team any differently than you would coach, if I'm selling marketing software, if I'm selling jets for Boeing, et cetera?
Chris Beall (08:53): Cold call's a cold call. You've ambushed a human being. You've frightened them. You need to help them go from that state of fear to a state of trust. You have seven seconds to do it. When I'm ambushed, just like anybody else, you ever been in this unfamiliar city, street lights aren't any too good, you're walking by yourself. You walk around the corner and something is going on there that suddenly makes the adrenaline pump. You've just been ambushed. You've just ambushed yourself by walking around that corner.
Chris Beall (09:25): You're just another person at that point. You're just another scared person. I don't care what you do for a living. You can be a damn cop for all I care. That moment is that moment. We have seven seconds to help somebody come out of that ambush situation, that fear they have of the invisible stranger and to help them get to a state of trust by showing them we see the world through their eyes and by demonstrating to them that we can solve a problem they have right now, the reason the cold call is awkward is, were the problem, we don't want to be the problem, but we are the problem. And when we accept the power of being the problem, cold calls become very, very easy.
Chris Beall (10:39): The rest of it is nothing more than curiosity. And yes, it's a little easier when you're selling meetings to engineers, because engineers, by their nature are more curious than other people. That's why they went into engineering. I'm marrying a mechanical engineer. She's a very curious person. That's why it was barely straightforward to go from, "Helen, I think it's going to take you 1,872 lifetimes to find a guy the way you're going about it." Only an engineer would want to break it down like that. We had a fulsome discussion about that. And she considers it a proposition, I consider it a proposal, but we are getting married.
Chris Beall (11:19): So the journey is always an emotional journey. And until you get into the content of the products themselves, you're really just dealing with human beings. You know me, Corey, I learned to sell by learning how to put a bridle on a horse when I was seven years old, by myself, I guarantee you, prospects and horses are identical. They're big, they're fast and they can kick you on the way out. That's it. They're identical. The only way you can get a horse to agree to be bridled when you're a little person, and we're all little compared to horses, is curiosity. It's the only emotion that consistently moves somebody. Curiosity moves all animals.
Chris Beall (12:01): Oren Klaff teaches squirrel theory. It's a theory that says curiosity and apprehension are in opposition to each other. And the animal eventually has to decide to look in the basket. But if you open the basket too soon and dump it out, sorry that doesn't work. We're all human. And I think that gives us great power when we're selling, to know that. But it also means we need to learn and be very objective about how human beings like ourselves, work.
Corey Frank (12:30): It's almost as if we make it, Chris, we've talked about this and Matt, what do you think? We make it so complex. So even though the product that you're selling, Matt, at Kaeser probably take pages just to cover all the patents that are listed and you probably keep your patent attorneys, you have dozens of them probably on staff, just keeping them busy. So it's a very complex, nuanced product. And to sell that, sometimes I may make the error in my ways that to cold call, to get appointments, to fill my needs for market dominance, I may think I have to be just as technical and I have to be maybe just as potentially dry as the prospects that I may think I'm approaching. But Chris, it's not that way at all.
Corey Frank (13:14): I think one of the earlier episodes you referred to, I think that's one of our first 10 or 12 episodes, certainly I sort of encourage the listeners to go back to that one about the horse and putting the bridle on. I think that's very appropriate, but Matt, what do you think about that? When you hire and when you coach, I imagine you probably have a lot of engineers who are attracted to Kaiser and they want to be in the pre-sale side and maybe they start on the front or the BDR side. How do you kind of have them coach them and teach them these techniques to kind of unlearn a lot of the things that they may have as assumption?
Matt McCorkle (13:49): It can be difficult. I mean, you've really kind of pinpointed the problem. I mean, when I approach sales and really even how taught sales at Kaiser for many years, was from a technical approach. And we were very successful at it at the time. But sales is evolving and what might have worked 10 years or 20 years ago, doesn't work as much now. Also competition always gets better. So when you're exploiting something, they're going to figure that out and get and closer to remove that differentiation, that P-ship that you have.
Matt McCorkle (14:19): But yes, so salesperson comes on board and the first thing they're going to think about is, I need to know all about your product. I need to know what makes it different. I need to know how it works. I need to be able to describe this to a customer and definitely engineers approach it that way. That's how I even approached it. And the thing is, this also is what happens in sales. You can be successful doing that. And then you can think, "Well, that's the best way to do it because I've been successful at it or I've been successful enough at it." But it's not actually true.
Matt McCorkle (14:47): You need to know enough about the technical to be able to ask the right questions, that's all you need to know. You don't need to actually know the specifics of how the machine works or anything really about that. You just need to know how is the customer using it? What do they actually need in their application? Those are really some relatively basic technical things. So as we've used ConnectAndSell and had more discovery, we have gotten less technical. We have gotten more about, what are the real business challenges that this customer is facing?
Matt McCorkle (15:17): We actually had to develop new collateral that didn't have anything to do with products, that we had never conceived of that before. We always wanted to go in and say, "Well, our brand color is yellow and black." And so there would be a lot of yellow and black. Well, now we have things that don't even highlight those differences. So yes, training people on the discovery call is not about the product. It's not about technical differentiation. It's about partnering with a company that can deliver better business results that understands you as a company, how you work your key metrics of reliability, productivity.
Matt McCorkle (15:51): And I think as Chris is talking about, what I realized as we were hiring different people, getting them to do things differently, I'm realizing that those salespeople that okay, have enough technical aptitude, but then are confident leaving the customer in a state where they say, "I trust this person can deliver on what they're promising. This person understands me." Those are the ones that are really the most successful in the end. And I think it absolutely gets down to emotion. It certainly gets to trust. And that's a lot of what we coach now, is related to those things much less so on the product and the technical details side.
Corey Frank (16:31): Sure. And you coach and train all of your folks and across all these branches, correct?
Matt McCorkle (16:38): That's correct. Yes.
Corey Frank (16:40): When you look at your own evolution as a sales professional, Matt, would you mind sharing what it is that you are working on, on your sales process in November of 2021? Is there an aspect that as you watch your game film and listen to your own calls, that you kind of catch yourself to say, I haven't quite got the yips out of that particular aspect of my process yet.
Matt McCorkle (17:07): Absolutely. So Chris, you talk about the pipeline, ConnectAndSell, it really expands that funnel. So you're getting more appointments in, okay, now you have more discovery calls. So then from the discovery, you are creating opportunities. So then once you have opportunities, how do you close them? And so our stage we've been working with ConnectAndSell, I think, what's this? More than two years now. And we've, as an organization, worked through those discovery pieces, how do we do that? We practice as an organization. How can we get better at those discovery calls? And now what we're looking at is we're looking at a playbook, essentially. So you have an opportunity. How do you win that game against the competition? What are the strategies that you use in terms of your conversation and in terms of your solution?
Matt McCorkle (17:59): So those are really the two pieces that we heavily look at. That's really what drives our sales. Obviously you have a technical solution and then you have, how do you present it? Or how do you handle that conversation? So we're developing a playbook right now, and this is something was reiterated at outbound, a number of different ways. And that's what we're looking at in terms of, how do you marry technical solution with the conversation to increase your close rate from, say it's 25% and increase it to 40%, maybe even 50%. And that's really, I think the state of the market right now. Things are very, very, very, very strong. I think everybody's seeing that across the economy, with what's going on. So the question is how can you win a greater percentage of these opportunities that you find?
Corey Frank (18:50): That's right. Well, I know one thing Chris does and certainly I do as CEOs of our company, is we sell. And Chris has taught me that from a long time, is that Henry Ford's definition of sales manager is best damn salesperson in the place. And Chris certainly has preached many times in this podcast that if you're a CEO, if you're an executive and you are not out front selling, cold calling, learning, you're missing out. And you're certainly not on the fast track to market dominance.
Corey Frank (19:20): So, Chris, I haven't asked you this in a while, certainly in a public forum like this, but as a CEO of a company. You guys are doing quite well, but I know you, you're a mathematician, you're breaking down your formulas. Is there a nuance of your sales process as you listen to the calls or as Danny or Cheryl, or even Sean, when they listen to you pitch they be like, "There's an aspect I just got to get rid of, or I got to get better at."
Chris Beall (19:45): Well, for me personally, I just would probably need to do more. I'm finding myself getting more efficient at getting folks in first conversations to agree to a test drive. I had one just the other day that I realized that was kind of a breakthrough. I didn't do it on Zoom, I just happened to call the person in an industry we've had no success in, but he said some intriguing things. So I started the clock and it was nine minutes from first word to agreement to take a test drive. And I realized even I've been falling into the habit of wanting to show a little bit more than is needed rather than just establishing sufficient reason to move to the next bit.
Chris Beall (20:30): I learn over and over and over that there's two things that we all do wrong. We do them wrong and have to keep finding them. We do things in the wrong order and we get impatient and skip steps. We just do. We skip the steps as individuals. And we skip the steps also in processes. We often ask, how can I get there in fewer steps rather than how can I get there more surefootedly.
Chris Beall (20:54): It's a funny thing, and when you look at it from the other side, from the empathy side and ask, how hard would it be for me to take this step if I were being asked to do so by somebody who is telling me about the, say ConnectAndSell thing? We often don't really think about how hard that would be, what would keep me from doing it? We often think, well, I know this, why don't you know it? You idiot. Why don't you just come along with me? We got the best air compressors. We're going to help you the most. We're the guys who actually understand how to put this thing into production the fastest and get you the cleanest results. We know how to save you money. What's wrong with you?
Chris Beall (21:34): I find myself in that mindset and I have to go and be more naive, find more naivete inside myself and more ability to be empathetic with this person because I'm asking them to do something. Nobody likes to be asked to do something, that's just simple. Nobody wants to be asked by another human being to do something. We all have psychological reactance to being asked or told to do something. I think we've seen this in the national political scale in the US.
Chris Beall (22:06): Now there's a relatively larger amount of societal transparency because of social media and immediacy. A lot of people just don't like to be told what to do. That would be all of us, actually. And when we're in sales, we're trying to tell somebody what to do. So we're kind of up against that and we need to get better at it.
Chris Beall (22:26): Our organization itself, we've learned some things from some people who we're working with, an amazing thing. The insistence closed for a meeting, it's so powerful. And yet, as a company we haven't adopted it. We're still struggling with it because it makes us feel funny. It's like, well, what if they don't show for the meeting, blah, blah, blah. We know what that means, mathematically. It's great. They don't show up for the meeting. Isn't that fantastic. The Sheryl Turner, [inaudible 00:22:57], the math works out, but we're reluctant to adopt and try what hasn't been proven or we can say hasn't been proven.
Chris Beall (23:07): I believe most of us could look at our sales processes and ask this question. Are there steps that we have put in place? Which provide us with false assurance of progress, where now that we've gotten trust, we could trust the prospect to do their job. And we could do those steps in another order or eliminate a step that we're using as an internal insurance policy for ourselves. And that we're telling ourselves a just so story about that if we make the customer do X, Y and Z, then they're more likely to do the thing we want them to do. If you were that person, would that be what it takes? Or is it just something that was put in place at one point to make you feel better?
Announcer (23:57): Today's show is also brought to you by Branch49. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right Cold Call Screenplays, to curating and mapping the ideal Call List for your entire TAM, Branch49’s modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach Market Dominance.
Coming from a background in mechanical engineering, Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors, is very interested in how sales works. He has always believed in the power of the telephone as a selling tool, so when he learned about ConnectAndSell’s sales-acceleration platform from our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, Matt immediately saw how he could use the telephone to increase Kaeser’s market share. “Matt was so curious, unlike many people in sales,” Chris says. Curious about how to get future appointments, how to coach coaches, how long onboarding takes, and about why face-to-face sales is different from phone sales. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris learn what Matt has figured out: In face-to-face sales, he says, “people like you to leave feeling that they like you, and you like them, and everything’s okay, so they’re not really telling you the truth.” But — as the title of today’s episode of Market Dominance Guys states — “On the Phone, They’ll Tell You the Truth!” Tune in to hear our Guys’ and Matt’s view on dominating your market through the awesome power of well-orchestrated and professionally coached cold calls.
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Here is the complete transcript of this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Coming from a background in mechanical engineering, Matt McCorkle, manager of branch operations for Kaeser Compressors is very interested in how sales works. He has always believed in the power of the telephone as a selling tool. So when he learned about ConnectAndSell sale acceleration platform from our Market Dominance Guy Chris Beall, Matt immediately saw how he could use the telephone to increase Kaeser's market share. "Matt was so curious, unlike many people in sales," Chris says, "curious about how to get future appointments, how to coach coaches, how long onboarding takes, and why face-to-face sales is different from phone sales." In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris learn what Matt has figured out. "In face-to-face sales," he says, "people like you to leave feeling they like you and you like them and everything's okay, so they're not really telling you the truth." But as the title of today's episode of Market Dominance Guys states, on the phone, they'll tell you the truth. Tune to hear our guys' and Matt's view on dominating your market through the awesome power of well orchestrated and professionally coached cold calls.
Corey Frank (01:38):
But Matt, good to finally meet you. I don't know if you've listened to all 100 plus episodes or not. I think besides me and Chris and my mom, I don't know if anybody's listened to all of them. Maybe Henry. [crosstalk 00:01:52] That's right [inaudible 00:01:52] sushi of course. Right. But you've been the subject of many a story that we've had on the Market Dominance Guys over the last couple of years. And I think it's near real time. I remember hearing the narrative of when you met Matt, because that's about the time that we started this thing a couple years ago coming up. And today we have Chris Beall's birthday eve too, I believe. Is that on the docket as well? We're going to celebrate, pre-celebrate that perhaps?
Chris Beall (02:19):
Indeed, indeed. Oh yeah. I should go get the bottle of Oban just to make sure that we're clean here. I will do that. I'll do that. Yes, indeed. This is my last day at the age of 66 now. Not my last day. Let us be clear.
Corey Frank (02:36):
God willing, you will see another sunrise tomorrow. Well, welcome to this very special episode of the Market Dominance Guys. I think that Matt who's the leader of the sales and the service sector for Kaeser Compressors has probably been just as instrumental in a lot of the theory and the practice and the application of market dominance that Chris and I have discussed over the last couple years. Probably more than anybody, I think Chris, because you certainly talked through your story and your discovery process. And so we figured what better way to have the pre-birthday eve Chris Beall episode here than to have the guy that really kind of helped inspire this whole thing. So before we get started. So welcome, Matt, it's great to have you on the program.
Matt McCorkle (03:21):
Thank you, Corey.
Corey Frank (03:22):
Absolutely. I know two things about air compressors. I know two air compressors only because one of my sons is hopefully becoming an Eagle scout here soon. So we do a lot of camping.
Matt McCorkle (03:31):
Awesome.
Corey Frank (03:32):
And I know around campfires, you got your lungs as an air compressor. And then when that kind of wears out and a guy my age, and especially as big as I am, you use these little things called bellows. That's the limit of my experience of understanding air compressors. So maybe you could give a guy like me and some of our listeners maybe an intro to what Kaeser does and an air compressor. And how in the heck did you get this advanced weaponry of ConnectAndSell in something that is very industrially efficient and focused like a compressor?
Matt McCorkle (04:04):
Absolutely. So compressors, I have a mechanical engineering degree, love seeing how things work, seeing how things are made. And so that's one of the things that attracted me to the compressed air industry, because anything that's made, anything that's in a plant has compressed air in it. It's the significant source of power in every plant that you get into it. We have really fancy motors. Now there's all kinds of technology. But at the end of the day, you've got to move stuff. With all this increases in production capacity, you want to move it faster. And if you want to move it faster, you're using compressed air. So the examples you brought out are good. We would be calling those blowers though. So those are just increasing the velocity of the air. They're not actually squeezing it. So we also make blowers. So you think of blowers like a supercharger on a car. That's just basically increasing the flow. It does increase the pressure a little bit. But when you're in a plant, you're increasing the pressure 10, 15, maybe 20 times the ambient air and compressing that down, putting it into a pipe, and then having that air do some work that you could get done with a person or with a motor, but it's going to be much faster with compressed air and so-
Corey Frank (05:16):
Across all industries, correct?
Matt McCorkle (05:16):
Across all industries.
Corey Frank (05:18):
[crosstalk 00:05:18] chemical, I mean our phones, our computers. Everything I would imagine uses a compressor today.
Matt McCorkle (05:24):
Absolutely. It all uses compressed air at some point in the process. That's one of the other exciting things about the industry. When you look at market dominance, you never know what industry is going to be growing at a given time. Well, any of those industries are using compressed air. So whether it's electronics or chemical or food or medical, all of these industries use compressed air. One of the big ones right now is packaging. Certainly packaging, going to more sustainable packaging. So there's constantly innovation in packaging, moving from plastics to recyclables. Another big one is certainly material handling. So you look at all these large distribution centers that the Amazons and similar companies are doing, all those conveyor belts, they use compressed air to sort and shift packages. They use optical eyes, recycling, huge industry. These really fancy optical eyes that can scan what's coming across the conveyor belt and send the different materials every different direction at such incredible rates. It's just incredible to see those kind of things happening. And Kaeser's equipment is really reliable. So if you're in the demanding applications, if you're running a lot of hours, that's the equipment that folks want. And that's what we do. So you talk about demanding environments, and sales and compressors is demanding as well. And that's where a tool like ConnectAndSell really helps separate us.
Corey Frank (06:43):
So let's talk about that, Chris. You met Matt and we heard the story in the pre-show riffs here. But when you first met Matt, without giving away too many state secrets from Kaeser, because obviously you're a brilliant sales [inaudible 00:06:59] in service of businessmen, Matt. But talk a little bit about Chris, maybe that conversation that you and Matt first had, where there was the current state that I needed to get from here to there. And as you guys started geeking out and kind of coming on board, the market dominance train about what TAMs you wanted to exploit.
Chris Beall (07:18):
One of the coolest things ... first of all, the way it all came about at the outbound conference with the four horseman of outbound, Jeb Blount, Anthony Iannarino, Mike Weinberg, and Mark Hunter, this was 2019 in their conference and that's where Matt and I met. And I was just fortunate enough to attempt to sell ConnectAndSell to a colleague of his more or less on a between. Actually not a bet. It was just I told somebody that I wouldn't explain ConnectAndSell to him, but I'd be happy to sell it to anybody he pointed at. He pointed at a guy at our table. Turns out it was a colleague of Matt's. What actually kind of surprised me was when I met Matt, I was thinking, "Yeah, air compressors. Right? They're really going to want to make a bunch of phone calls."
Right? And he just struck me as so open-minded and curious like an engineer, like a scientist. I was like, "Whoa, what's this guy doing at this conference?" Because I can tell you the world of sales is not full of particularly curious people. I hate to say it, but it isn't. There's a lot of conservatism in sales. There's a lot to do with the way we did it yesterday. It's the nature of the beast and for good reason. Because if you don't know why something works, you may as well continue what you thought you were doing yesterday. Right? So being able to take sales apart and put it back together, so to speak. And as our listeners know, I'm an old physicist mathematician. I'm very interested in how things work on the inside and not too afraid to take them apart and see what they look like and what's going on. It was just very, very exciting to me to have a quick conversation. I don't think we talked for more than 15 minutes, Matt. Did we? It was pretty quick.
Matt McCorkle (08:58):
No, but we got right into it. I mean, Bob introduced us. And I remember the conversation in detail because this is a challenge that I had been wrestling with. At that time, I would've been in this role I'm in for about four years. And so I was really diving into sales, really thinking about how do we grow market share. So a little bit about Kaeser. Kaeser has been around for more than 100 years. But in the United States. But we're not number one globally in our market. And in the US, we're around in the third range. It's not a huge secret. There's some big players that have more share than us. But that's share that we want. And so that's the challenge that I've got to think about.
And we had been wrestling with how to get into more accounts. We knew that getting proactive appointments, your future schedule is more important than your past schedule. That's something that we knew from a sales perspective. And when we were speaking, that's what we were speaking about. How do you get those future appointments? So we had tried the sales development reps, inside sales reps. We had worked with outsourcing telemarketers. I mean, we've done all the typical things you look at. We hadn't tried the ConnectAndSell technology. And so everything you were saying was like, this is incredible. This can't be for real. And I remember the question I asked you at the end. I was like, "Everything here is too good to be true. There's got to be something here that's wrong. Why do customers stop working with you?"
Announcer (10:23):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. Give your fingers a rest with ConnectAndSell's patented technology. You'll load your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing how many tears they shed while watching the end of Toy Story kind of qualified. And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Matt McCorkle (11:01):
And Chris just straight up answered it right away. And it was a phenomenal answer and I'll never forget it. And I know if we were to ever stop working with ConnectAndSell, it would be because somebody forgot what this reason was. And that reason is because people forget that it's a personnel cost. You said when people don't realize that this is an offset for a personnel cost, then they move on. That's absolutely the truth. And it's been huge. There's just so many levels to it. I think the other challenge ... so there's that. How do you fill that proactive calendar? How do you fill your pipeline that it answers? But the other piece that I struggle with is how do you coach coaches? How do you take a person who hasn't sold compressors and turn them into somebody that can sell compressors successfully? And I think every business leader deals with this, kind of that onboarding piece. How long does it take? Who does it? How do you continue developing? And ConnectAndSell answers some huge problems in that area as well. It gives you amazing-
Corey Frank (12:07):
Great stuff, Matt. And again, without disclosing the state secret of Kaeser here. When you looked at the sales approach, maybe for your biz dev folks or your fronters before ConnectAndSell and after, right? Obviously we're big proponents on this show of the breakthrough script, the 27 seconds. And as Chris will tell you, when folks first hear that, that's a seismic mental shift for many, many reasons. I don't think that'll work. I don't think they're going to show up. And certainly there's answers for all of those. As if you've listened to the show, you'll understand. But talk a little bit about maybe that chasm that mentally you had to cross to completely say, Chris, ConnectAndSell, I'm yours. Take me. It's not a buffet. It's a full meal. When you do ConnectAndSell, you approach the flight school and [crosstalk 00:13:03] how something like that would help to expedite the process as well.
Matt McCorkle (13:08):
It definitely started with flight school. And so what we did for that, we came ready to go. The reason I had Chris go to Milwaukee is because Milwaukee was one of the best outbound prospecting, fill your proactive calendar branch already. I took him to the best place. Because I said, if we're going to test this thing, he can obviously make the worst team better, but can he make the best team better? And we went there and we used the pitches that we had practiced and had a lot of good guidance on putting together. And we were using those pitches. And then halfway through, I'm having a conversation with Chris and James and then I'm starting to pick their brain. Okay. Well, how would you put a pitch together?
So then they start kind of piecemealing it together and they're doing this and that. And then we give it a try. And we're like, oh my goodness, here's the stats. It's already working better. And we haven't really even been fully trained. We just had a conversation about it. You're talking an hour, and all of a sudden it's better. And then from there we went through the full. So that was the test drive, I guess I should say. And then we went through the full flight school with Donny. As shared on LinkedIn and said many times to him is he's just a amazing teacher and really an incredible teacher. Ability to give difficult, constructive feedback in a way that you leave hugely motivated. And he was a big part of being able to get people to buy into that breakthrough script concept, for sure. And still is for our organization. As we bring new people on, they still get Donny treatment and-
Corey Frank (14:40):
The Red Baron of flight school. That's Donny. That's for sure.
Matt McCorkle (14:43):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (14:43):
Well, it's funny because there's an irony in there. I spent one day, one hour and 53 minutes talking to Donny Crawford from the Orlando airport. And I'm pacing around talking to Donny, trying to convince him to try the breakthrough script once. Just once. And he's telling me all the reasons it won't work, why he doesn't like it, what's wrong with it. And finally he says, okay, okay. And Donny is such a nice guy. He doesn't normally fight on something. So he truly thought the breakthrough script was a bad idea. And then he called me the next day and he said, "Holy smokes, Chris. That thing works. I got a meeting the first time I used it. Then I got a meeting the second time I used it. Then I started fooling around with it and I didn't get any meetings anymore. And I realized you told me if you fool around with it, you won't get any meetings."
So Donny Crawford is like the biggest breakthrough script skeptic in the world until he tried it. So it's really interesting. It is the most awkward thing, especially when you think about. When you think about it, it kind of makes you sick. It's like, I don't want to say that part. I don't want to say that part. And then you kind of have to understand not only why it works, but why you don't want to say those things because that's important too. And Donny now, he's our chief flight school instructor. He's run, I don't know now, 85, 90 flight school since then. And I always get the same feedback. And it's because he truly is taking his experience as a cold caller, as a world class cold caller, and he's taking that life journey and putting it at the service of the people that he's training.
And so when he speaks, he's speaking from this deep confidence that what he's teaching actually has a shot, but that it's tricky. And I don't know, Matt, whether you found this. But when reps drift, they drift in tone first and it's usually right at the very beginning. They have a hard time throwing themselves under the bus. That's [inaudible 00:16:53] a really hard thing to do. And so they kind of drift and they need coaching. And I find that our reps need coaching pretty much every week, even after they've got a lot of experience. Because the tendency to drift is so strong because it's a pretty high precision operation.
Matt McCorkle (17:10):
Absolutely. That's definitely true. We all need coaching. I myself eed coaching. I do some calling with Cheryl because I think it's just a great way to stay connected with customers and what they care about. I think one of the super powerful things is just the power of simply having a conversation, whether you're focused on a meeting or not is incredible, at least in our business. I think really in any business it can be. But it keeps you so in touch. So I do the calling. And yes, I'll drift. I'll have a few bad calls and you think, oh, I can tweak this or do this better. And it changes. And then you hear somebody doing it right or you listen back to yourself and you realize, wow, I really botched that. That did not work.
But the coaching capabilities in ConnectAndSell to me is as powerful as the speed that you're able to connect with people. It is so hard to take the sales interaction and put it in a way that you can play it back and be like Tom Brady in a football game and watch what the defense is doing and decide you're going to do something different on your next chance with the ball. That's what you can do with ConnectAndSell. And that's one of the huge benefits we've had with it.
Corey Frank (18:23):
Matt, [inaudible 00:18:27] have you been classically trained as a salesperson. Did you go through TAS selling or Sandler or Xerox or Miller Heiman in your career? I know coming from an engineering background in the Air Force. But as you grew in the ranks at Kaeser and your other organizations, did you go through a classical sales methodology training process?
Matt McCorkle (18:50):
I thought this might come up. And no, I did not. I am not a true salesperson in that sense. So I first got into sales, prior to Kaeser, I was with carrier and I was what was called a pre-sale developer. So that meant I helped develop the proposal and then went along to present it with the salesperson. And so I still had the fear of sales that I see so much in people that I'm trying to recruit now. But then I had the chance to really get out and sell when I started up our Minneapolis and Milwaukee operations and was out carrying the bag and selling and doing as much reading as I could.
Corey Frank (19:27):
Because I'm curious because I can see why you do well now. And so maybe take us a little bit on the journey of because you weren't necessarily classically trained, and that's not a bad thing by the way. Right? Certainly especially a lot of sales methodologies that are out there. I think that's why what the ConnectAndSell folks with [inaudible 00:19:45] and Chris and everything do at the flight school is so powerful because it is ... if you can read, we can get you up to speed and sell. Because when I install, ConnectAndSell Chris and maybe Matt, you can comment to this ... it takes about three or four weeks to really get started. It takes a handful of months to really start to see results. Oh no, wait, I'm sorry. That's something else. Right? It takes 60 seconds. Read this, let's focus on your tone. So as you moved up the ranks and adopted your sales process, did you focus on your tone? Were you aware of these things about trust and fear and curiosity to generate? Were you focused on product knowledge? How did you create that snug fit, that trust factor in your world kind of before as you were coming up the ranks here to really get some traction?
Matt McCorkle (20:40):
Sure, sure. I think one of the hurdles I didn't have to overcome was the power of the telephone. So that was something that I very early on always believed in as a salesperson. Just because one of the things that we traditionally did was these blitzes. And so we'd go into the field and you'd go into an industrial park. And this is still very common today, actually even in the COVID era. And you're knocking on doors and you're trying to get cards, you're trying to see if somebody will meet you right then. And I was like, the maximum you're going to see in a given day is 25 people. This is not a good strategy. So I could see very early on this is not a good strategy. I knew that email was very impersonal. And really the only other thing is to get on the phone with somebody.
So the phone was something that I had used successfully. I knew there were techniques to it. I had read a lot of Stephan Schiffman's work about the phone and had seen others be successful with it as well. So I had a strong belief in the phone. But what I also knew was there's two things about it that I always found were extremely hard to overcome. One of them is the rejection. When you're doing a cold call face to face, a rejection, it's very minimal, very easy to get over. You're talking to somebody, people want to be nice to you when you see them face to face. They want you to leave and feel like they like you and you like them and everything's okay. So they're not really telling you the truth. While on the phone, they'll tell you the truth. And the other thing is you're questioning as you're on the phone.
Am I using my time well? Because I feel like I'm not doing anything. Whereas when I'm knocking on doors, I feel like I'm being very productive. I'm doing things. I'm seeing people. So those two hurdles were really, I think the biggest ones to overcome. And I think they still are. When you're on the phone, you're wondering, am I using my time most effectively right now to be sitting here waiting for somebody to pick up? And then even talking to that person, you deal with a couple doses of rejection and you question it even more. So what you have to do, and what we've done is we really keep in the forefront what we're looking for. What is that next step that we're looking for? We're looking for that meeting. We're looking for the conversation, just to have the conversation, to be able to say, Kaeser can help you improve your operations.
We can help you improve your reliability, reduce your costs. This is what we do every day for people just like you. If we can just share those words with somebody, then we've had a win. So we try to really just focus on what is that next step that we're trying to get. And then also show how in the long term, this calling does bring great results. But I do think that long term focus has to be there. Kaeser again, we've been around 100 years, we have a very long term focus. So it's a great fit for our overall strategy as a company, it's much less short term, much longer term. And so that's what we keep in the forefront. But yeah, I hope that answers your question there in terms of how-
Corey Frank (23:28):
That's perfect. It's always great to hear, right, Chris, the journey of folks who ... because most of us, I think the Beverage Institute was an old institute that did research on sales professionals and the four evolutions of sales professionals. And evolution number one is called commercial visitor. And the characteristics and the traits of a commercial visitor is I fell into sales by accident, I see sales as living on the fringe of society, I'm meekish, sheepish, anxious about asking people from money, right? It's a lot of the ... if you're familiar with Sandler, they call it buy cycle issues. But that's the characteristic trait. And some folks never get out of that level one, evolution one commercial visitor to ultimately get to the professional consummate salesperson. And part of it from a high level, I'd like to hear from you, Chris, on this, because we've talked about this several times is the philosophy of the discovery call that a lot of folks maybe trip over, especially in a very complex engineering, nuanced product like compressors is I'm going to try to sell everything on this initial cold call to get them to my sales rep to talk about everything in my product catalog.
And so Chris and Matt, maybe can talk a little bit about that. About how the discovery call is maybe a little bit different than most people think.
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If we train our salespeople to use data and devise probing questions that sort out which prospects are worth their time, is our main instruction to reps, “Go for the disqualification jugular vein!”? How’s that working for you? Santosh Sharan, president, and COO of Apollo.io joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank, in part three of their three-part conversation about the roles of technology and data in cold calling, and the necessity of training the human voice to do more than disqualify prospects. Santosh explains, “Sales reps depend on technology so much that they don’t take time to do research and take a look at conversations strategically.” Chris and Corey both concur: To be a good talker and listener in a sales setting, training is essential, and the goal of that training should be gaining the buyer’s trust through the use of a great script and “The Impact of the Human Voice,” which is the title of today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode.
Listen to the previous segments of this interview:
EP105: Data & Trust: Your Assets in Market Domination EP104: The Increasing Atomic Weight of Data About Our Guest
Santosh Sharan, president and COO at Apollo.io, a leading data intelligence and sales engagement platform. Previously, Santosh was COO at LeadGenius, COO at Aberdeen, and VP at ZoomInfo.
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Here is the complete transcript to this episode:
Corey Frank (01:21):
Well, that's critical. Again, as you know, not denigrating my profession, I'm in my profession, so I know. And is that you can't just take this plutonium 235 and drop it off at the office of the sales manager, and then just say, "Hey, you're good," without any guiding principles and data about operating procedures. And I think that's where Chris to your point was on the tech stack. The MarTech stack particularly is there's so many different increments that we can chase endlessly, but I think it really comes down to the companies that have the deep philosophy, right? You're not a carpet bagger. This is your industry. I don't think you're going to medical school or law school anymore. You are in the data industry. You are in the success industry, right? You are an entrepreneur that continues to see the world differently when it comes to empowering, giving companies like mine the rocket field, companies like Chris' the rocket field.
Corey Frank (02:22):
And so I want to know that about Apollo as if my folks are aligned that way, philosophically, that I'm buying into a product like Apollo that sees the world that I do, or that challenges me versus simply as a one-dimensional MarTech, that's going to charge me another seat license. And it may not last renewal period because, hey, my guys didn't use it or they didn't use it well. And you realize your account managers, your success managers that you have been spending an awful lot of time trying to reengage with the clients after they've sold them about, "Hey, did you know about this feature? Hey, did you know about this feature?"
Corey Frank (02:59):
And there's got to be some correlation where how many success managers you have versus your renewal rates. And I'm sure for a lot of companies it's a diagram, you should have maybe positioned it or sold it the right way at the beginning. And finding out a little bit about the culture of the organization, which is tough for salespeople to do, because, hey, we want to hit that number, but Chris, what are your thoughts on that?
Chris Beall (03:24):
Well, you know me, my crystal ball is actually here because I drove the excursion down to Arizona. So I have the room in that massive 9,000-pound beast for a crystal ball finally. No trunk, it's mostly crystal ball. I actually think what Santosh just described is coming to pass. We've seen it in what Henry at RealSource is doing, that he does have a system that analyzes that highly vertical data in commercial real estate world around medical office buildings.
Corey Frank (03:54):
Very small market, very tight market.
Chris Beall (03:56):
Very tight, right? Everybody in it is named. He has a thesis which is to talk to them well before they're thinking of selling, so that he can frame that opportunity for them. He has the Ironman suit, which allows him to basically it is an autopilot. It says the next best thing to do is this. There's another weird piece, which is most people are too busy to talk to you right now. So if you need to intersect that with conversations, you need a way of getting the conversations within the bounds of other people's what they're doing, right? Somebody called me while we're doing this podcast, the person who called me happens to be my regular insurance agent for a kind of insurance you have to buy now in the state of Washington or they tax you for some reason I can't understand.
Chris Beall (04:43):
So did he get through to me? No. That phone's sitting down there on the floor buzzing at me because I'm busy right now. So how hard is it for him to get ahold of me when I'm available? That's pretty hard. Like he's only got so many attempts to try. I only have how much time, I'm not busy, and that's true for everybody. Think of the autopilot this way. So Tesla autopilot works really, really well on the freeway. It's just fabulous. In fact, it saves lives. I have a friend whose life was actually believed was saved by the autopilot. It saw the car next to him in a rainstorm coming over into his lane and it saw that the lane next to it was open and it changed lanes into it. An emergency maneuver of a sort done smoothly entirely by automation, which no human being could do because he failed to have eyes grow out of the side of his head when he was an embryo.
Chris Beall (05:36):
You try, right? You can't get those things to pop out the side of your head at least not in the world we live in. But there's a real question when you're going down the road, which is okay, autopilot isn't much for surface streets and probably shouldn't be. And at some point, automated driving gives way to complexity and it's time to put the wheel firmly in your hands while you do the things that are required to navigate the parking lot that nobody is mapped or whatever, right? But the question really is what if your off-ramps were opened or closed at about a 5% open rate and it was scintillating? Some of this one's open now, this one's open now, whichever one's going to come up, you don't know. You got to have somebody get you on an off-ramp so you can go to Starbucks, right?
Chris Beall (06:24):
You can't just drive down the freeway forever, you're trying to do a little bit more. By the way, I was at a Starbucks the other day driving down from Washington state. And there were 10 Teslas lined up there charging, which told me that Tesla's figured out how to get you to go to Starbucks and charge your car, which means they're working with Starbucks. That's the kind of brilliance we're going to see in the future where the opportunity to interact is also optimized because the sales reps time is the constrained resource. So which offer ramp is open right now, the autopilot needs to tell me that and then I need to get going once I'm out there doing the peculiar things that only I as a driver can do. I love that analogy. I do think that's where the world is going. It accentuates the interpersonal skills. It moves out the data skills interestingly enough.
Chris Beall (07:19):
Your average sales rep, as we've talked about in the show is a... I don't mean average, I mean great, is a dyslexic talker listener that is not consistent with looking at data because the data doesn't sit still or paying attention to things that require deep focus in order understand them.
Chris Beall (07:39):
So somebody else has to do that kind of work. AI can do marvelous amounts of it than people who are using judgment can tune it up. The rep's job really should be, what's the next thing for me to do to move a relationship along in the direction of a potential helping relationship commercially for somebody. I think that's what's going to happen. And the talker listeners they're going to do their thing. Again, I don't like football analogies, but I'll go to it. It's very rare that the player who's capable of running that tight route or blocking sufficiently to keep that left tackle, who can keep your quarterback from getting killed, that that person also should be the head coach that same day, designing the place. They're kind of different things and you need both and making them mesh together in a way that wins in that zero-sum game that we call sales is the future and will always be the future.
Santosh Sharan (08:38):
Yeah. As you would talking, Chris, I realized here's another crystal ball or prophecy. If you look at the evolution of computing, right. There was a time when universities and government could buy one computer, that's it. It would cost like 10 million, right? And right now I look around I'm surrounded by like 10 small or large computers right now. Right? And that evolution took 40 years. Now, that evolution where data is accessible to all hasn't happened yet, to a certain... And this is an area where Apollo is really driving to democratize data. The way computing got democratized or information got democratized by Google. B2B data hasn't gotten democratized, I think that could happen pretty soon as well.
Corey Frank (09:27):
Wow. Now, that's fascinating.
Chris Beall (09:29):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (09:29):
So you guys make your living to some degree of selling undemocratized data and your insistence is to democratize it. I love it. I love it.
Corey Frank (10:17):
I wasn't sure Santosh to ask this question publicly on the record or not, but this idea of a social score, right. And where privacy ends and where applicable decent data, workable data is. Right? So for instance, knowing that Chris, the X and Y and the Z, but especially on the Z and then the alpha and the beta, maybe what time he picked up the phone, but where does it end? Maybe which number he picked up the phone on, maybe is there a tonality that works for Chris to persuade him differently? Maybe social tips on Chris is a veto, right? And you talk to him like this, this is what we've seen in the community or the consortium. Do you see any of that or maybe [crosstalk 00:11:01].
Santosh Sharan (11:01):
Yeah, that's very interesting. I have not seen it in the phone world, but it already exists in the internet world. So what they do is for all of us on our internet, all the content we consume, some Google or Facebook or somebody is keeping track of all the content Chris consumes. All the websites he goes to and all the white paper he downloads. Now, what they do with that information is they'll try to anonymize Chris's name and email. They'll just say whatever information, certainly location and exec and the company, because if with IP address, you can tell which company this traffic is coming from. But then marketers are able to rebuild that it's Chris and no one else using other forms of data. Right? So there are ways to at least on the content consumption side, if you can call it a social score, you can tell a lot by the kind of content people are consuming. Right?
Santosh Sharan (11:57):
So what you allude to is very interesting if it can be built for a phone, right? Because everybody's calling the same... I have said two phone numbers, which one am I more likely to respond to? Right. Or what times of the day, if people have tried different times maybe Tuesday morning tends to work better because I have no meetings. Or if somebody could create those scores, we already have social scores on social media. Our behavior in their, so I don't think it would be a big taboo, your question on where the privacy stops? Anything that's on the internet, it's already public. Anything that's not on the internet, but it's related, it's on your business card is still public, right. Now, anything that's not on your business card and it's private, like my social security number, now that is strictly private and that cannot be used as data to enhance the profile.
Santosh Sharan (13:01):
But there is a landmark judgment by Supreme Court. This was like 30, 40 years ago, right around the time internet was being formed. And what they said is your public information, the fact that I work for Apollo is public information. I cannot prevent anyone from selling that information in a different medium and I cannot say that's private to me. Also, if it's work-related, my job title or work phone number, so they're all on my business card. As soon as I give my business card to one person that's like giving it to the whole world.
Corey Frank (13:36):
That's true. That's a great point. Yep.
Santosh Sharan (13:38):
Right. So I can't say no, you can have it, but then no one else should know this information. So that's how you make the distinction between public and private info.
Corey Frank (13:47):
I'm thinking like in terms of even personas, right, Chris, you talk about tonality ConnectAndSell they teach, certainly, I do as well that your voice has the musical instrument, right, has an ability to persuade, to create wanting before convincing based off of pacing. And certain people, it will resonate more than others.
Corey Frank (14:09):
Certain folks will based off your persona, your birth order, your role. I may talk to you in more of a monotone. And when I'm talking about facts and speeds and feeds, I may just do just kind of have a very low, low scale. For others, I may be a little bit more animated and that may be more successful.
Corey Frank (14:30):
Again, this is next-generation kind of gong.io kind of stuff, to be sure. But I'm fascinated with that because it's another uncharted world of, I have the data, I have the number, I have the person I'm going to call, now what is the dossier on how I can romance this person? Right. Talk a lot about Chris Vos and never split the difference in how you build trust and how you can get from fear to trust, to curiosity, commitment, very quickly. And a lot of that has to do with voice.
Santosh Sharan (15:02):
It's interesting what you are saying was the business model for Aberdeen. Is because we had a data business that we bought and we had the content and the business model was, we'll tell you who to contact, but we'll also tell you what to say. Right. And what to say, we were building a lot of content and lot of data. So we could automatically, and we had analyst data with lots of bits and pieces of information, but we could prompt, I guess this could be done better at scale. Clearly what you're saying holds good, right? Selling is a little bit like floating. You need ice breakers or any networking. You need those quick, and you have very little time to capture attention. So this voice box that you talk about, any coaching on what to say, first, it's the how you deliver your message, but also what content you deliver that will attract their attention.
Santosh Sharan (16:00):
If you're talking to a VP market, maybe you talk something strategic, versus if you're talking to a SDR, maybe you talk about something very tactical that will help them get the next, be successful in the very next call. Right. So knowing those differences, and also we live in this world of personalization where we are getting to a point where computers have to tell you this, right? Personalization is the opposite of specialization, right? So we are all trained to specialize in something and be good at it, just by focusing one thing. Right. And yet now we have to personalize to like hundreds of different... And this is where data and computing can help kind of bridge this gap.
Chris Beall (16:42):
Yeah. I'll point out something that happened at the very beginning of this podcast. Corey, you got on and you had a highly personalized opening interaction with Santosh talking about his past at Aberdeen, how you were a customer, as you established a connection. You admired his work. You reminded him of those days and what he could be proud of, by the way, we always talk about how the one emotion that we want to elicit in somebody that we're speaking with and want to have a relationship with is actually pride.
Chris Beall (17:17):
We want them to take their reticence or concern or whatever, and actually substitute for it, pride of either their accomplishments or even something as simple as the place where they live, which people generally choose where they live and they tend to be proud out of it. Right. My opening question on almost every discovery call is a question that very few people ask like this and I ask it for a very specific reason.
Chris Beall (17:44):
I would ask and I might have asked you this Santosh the first time we ever talked is, hey, so by the way, it helps me to have a conversation with somebody just to know kind of where they are. Where are you right now on the surface of our blue whirling planet. And what I'm actually doing is two things. One is, I'm saying we're together. We're both people and we're in this. The image you get is the earth from out and space, somewhere that famous picture, right? With the earth rise over the moon. And here we are, we're together. We're in this together. We're not just together in this meeting, but we're kind of in this together. And secondly, wherever it is you are, you either love it or you don't love it one way or another, you have emotions about it and that's the first thing you're going to speak about. And that totally changes the conversation.
Chris Beall (18:30):
And so it's a kind of, I'll call it universal personalization because it turns out we will all personalize the conversation if we're allowed to speak, as long as we don't have anybody trying to box us in. What we teach sales reps to do often is to try to box somebody in and ask box questions where we put you in a corner and say, "So Corey, if I could show you a way to avoid having several of your children kidnapped tomorrow afternoon around two o'clock, would that be a value to you?" Right? That's the kind of question that we have sales reps ask people. And it's like, I don't want to answer that question?
Chris Beall (19:11):
Whereas if I said, Corey, one of the things that I really admire about you, this just kind of blows me away is how you get so much done, not just professionally, but working with those young students at Grand Canyon University. And yet it's clear to me that because you do special things like you take the kids to places around the world, your children, and you don't have just one or two, you've got a few, you're a generous guy in that regard. How do you do that? That question is the kind of question that leads somewhere. And it leads somewhere for a very good reason because we tend to teach salespeople that the idea is to go for the disqualification or the qualification jugular. You can't do that unless somebody has chosen to, as the wolf does when it's playing with the other wolf to expose its throat, right?
Chris Beall (20:08):
You don't expose your throat until you trust the other party not to tear it out and leave blood all over their fangs. So that's the essence of how we get to this personalization. And often the data will help us. I'm having a meeting tomorrow with somebody who in less than three minutes, actually, I put it on the clock, it was about two minutes and 48 seconds. I discovered I'm meeting with somebody whose father started the company that he now runs in 1982. That's hugely valuable in our conversation. There's no doubt about that. How long did it take me to find that out, a little Google and I'm there. Right. And I also happen to know that his chief revenue officer came from three companies that I know extraordinarily well and had tenures of 1.3, 1.5, and 1.2 years at those three companies, which is interesting to me. I'll keep that in mind, but I won't mention it. Right.
Chris Beall (21:07):
So there are things that somebody could say, because it's not always what you do say, it's often what you don't say. I don't know why those tenures were like, they're about average for sales, but I'm certainly not going to bring that matter up. But I could bring up the higher-level thing, which is this world that you've lived in and I live in a sales tech world. It sure seems to be chaotic at times, doesn't it? And that's a kind of personalization that doesn't require that I know the name of your dog.
Corey Frank (21:35):
Yeah. Well, as my friend Ori Eisen from 41st Parameter in Trusona now. And multiple times Corey, there's two things you need to be successful in business, intelligence.
Corey Frank (21:50):
Right. And clearly the examples that you gave there, Chris, and just the nuance and the approach of those type of nurturing, seemingly harmless questions yielded an abundance of intelligence that you are going to leverage. Not in an unethical way, but in an unethical way to try to build that connection and that trust as you had said. And so I think that what Santosh's company, what Apollo certainly does, right, is enables us powers, sales guys like us CEOs like us in the hands of the right person, that data is absolutely deadly. And in the hands of some amateurs, you put an AR-15 in the hands of somebody who doesn't know what they're doing and that could have disastrous results as well, so.
Chris Beall (22:42):
Think of the challenge that it takes to take that example, which is I go out and I query the company. and I just want to know one thing, which is what does the company say about its own CEO? That's really important actually.
Corey Frank (22:53):
Ah, right.
Chris Beall (22:54):
The tone of what they say about their own CEO told me everything. And it told me that in two sentences that his father started the company in 1982. And that he was the guy who was the head of sales and took the company international. I don't need to know anything else more in order to begin a conversation in which I can now relax and let him talk because that's really what I want to do. And that's kind of the key to sales. I think the key to sales is to catch the person at the right time when they're ready to buy what you want. Eventually, if they're intrinsically qualified, they will be ready to buy what you want. The question is, do they trust you enough to tell you what they really want?
Corey Frank (23:38):
There you go.
Santosh Sharan (23:39):
Do you think the sales reps of today depend on technology so much and do so much. They're not really spending as much time to kind of do this research that you mentioned, right? Or they'd look at these conversations strategically, right? Or they're just like all these tools are bringing them leads and they want to close. They just want pricing in front of the buyer and then move on to the next one. In a way they're living in the day of plenty, and this is not how it used to be several years ago. And that's why you had to do all this hard work and kind research and hone your skills. But now I worry that some of that will go away from this.
Corey Frank (24:24):
Chris calls it that abundance of riches that you have, what's the term the amplify suck because here I have this weapon like ConnectAndSell, Santosh, right? And now I'm able to dial 1000 times a day if I want to, if I click that button enough. And I am powered by Apollo data. But if I'm lazy on my pitch, "Santosh, hi. This is Corey from apollo.io. I was wondering if you had a few minutes to talk." Maybe I don't have a screen placer, right. That's the amplify sucks.
Corey Frank (24:58):
So that's a very dangerous place to be because I think of that mentality of, I got 1000 other leads here, there's a couple of Oompa Loompas in the back room, just pouring unlimited amounts of apollo.io data and I got a bunch of hamsters over here, churning the ConnectAndSell, dialer. And so it's no skin off my nose. Right.
Chris Beall (25:20):
It's really interesting. I mean, the fact is when you don't have abundance, you can't learn how to hold great conversations. And the hardest conversation in sales are the trickiest, not the hardest, but the most different conversation is the ambush conversation. It's the only conversation like it that we tolerate in business.
Chris Beall (25:39):
We actually don't want anybody to ambush anybody in general, but it turns out that to start a relationship off correctly, we have to ambush somebody right, most effectively. Because they're being inundated with so much noisy information, noisy requests coming in from all these inexpensive media that you got to go to an expensive medium. So you can go to a conference and have a conversation with them, that's really expensive. Or you can call them on a telephone and ambush them. And that conversation to be held effectively. Actually, this is what's so interesting is why I call it, you do Corey, finishing school for future CEOs.
Chris Beall (26:20):
That skill of holding a conversation where you didn't get to prep, but you can actually personalize it on the fly, that your techniques, which are ethical, are appropriate to the situation. Where you can allow that person to begin the process of trusting you by how you conduct that conversation. That's kind of the only way not to amplify suck, because at least competitively. Because if you really think about it, you only have two choices. You're only going to talk to somebody or you're not. If you don't talk to them, you are competitively in a world where everybody else is sending them more stuff that is tuned up to tease them. And people resist being teased over time. Those magic subject lines they wear out. The human voice never wears out.
Corey Frank (27:09):
That's a great line. That's great, Chris. I got to write that down. That's so true. We're always looking for the new Jedi Mind Trick on my one word and my email for sincerity and authenticity never goes to out of style, although a touch base status, whatever goofball line is now in Vogue today is tomorrow's Cliché.
Chris Beall (27:34):
Gresham’s law of marketing and sales communication, cheap information, cheap channels, drive out the previous message that worked. So you have something that's been kind of faked up. It's a little bit counterfeit, but it works. And then it gets driven out by all the noise, because it's easy to copy.
Chris Beall (27:53):
So when the cost of copying something drops to zero, the value of copies itself tends towards zero. The Mona Lisa, if I could copy it perfectly so you couldn't tell the difference between the original and my copy. You couldn't tell it even if you took the frame apart, right? Well, it drops in value. If I can make 100,000 copies of the actual Mona Lisa down to the Adams, so to speak, not worth so much. Now, I've got to know provenance which I can't know on conversations. So you've got to have something that doesn't degrade.
Chris Beall (28:26):
And one thing that doesn't degrade is the human midbrain. It's very, very old. It goes back to well before we were humans. Now, anybody who's ever had a dog knows and you know me, Corey, I was a dog guy, right? 16 dogs I had as a kid at one point. The tone of voice you use with a dog determines your relationship with it almost instantly. And a dog and a human last common ancestor we had was a long, long, long time ago. But that part of the brain that interprets the intention from the voice, can I trust you? That goes back a long ways before we were-
Santosh Sharan (29:05):
What you're saying is we have millions of years of evolutionary memory on how we respond to each other's voice, right? And then with our whatever flight or fight response, it's almost involuntary response, right? We don't even realize that we are building trust and credibility. Do you think this can be coached or do you think it's just a natural talent.
Chris Beall (29:31):
It can not be coached, but that's what this shirt's all about, flight school, it is what we coach. So today (unnamed company) subjected themselves voluntarily in their Canadian and their UK operation to their first full session of Flight School, which is two hours long. And the preparation is we take them through a messaging workshop and we teach them the psychological framework to go from fear, not the rep's fear, but the prospect's fear of being ambushed by an invisible stranger to trust in seven seconds. And from trust to curiosity in about 17 seconds and from curiosity to commitment, to take a meeting in about 10 seconds. And we teach it to people and then we coach them like the first two hours we coach only the first seven seconds of the conversation. And they have live conversations one after another, after another, and they get comfortable and then they get used to listening to coaching and they try different things.
Chris Beall (30:33):
And we do this at this level of precision. It's not like, here are the words. The words are not, I know I'm an interruption can I have 27 seconds? It's like this, I know I'm an interruption, can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And each of those voices has a name according to the FBI. Each of those voices can be learned, that hard flat throwing myself under the bus. I know I'm an interruption, that tells you I see the world through your eyes. That's tactical empathy, that was developed by the FBI in order to start a hostage negotiation. Not that exact words, but that idea, right. Took a couple seconds. Then the next part is called playful curious, come along with me, I'm going to show you that I'm competent to solve a problem you have right now.
Chris Beall (31:21):
You know what your problem is? I know what it is, me. I am your problem. So I'm going to offer a solution to the problem of which I'm completely in control. I know what you're trying to do. Your goal is to get off this call with your self-image intact. I'm not going to say that, that would be impolite, but I know it's true. So on that foundation, I'm going to offer a solution to the problem. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why called? My voice will go up twice. We teach that, that alone will increase conversation and meeting conversion rates. Just those seven seconds by a factor of four. It's like taking a team of 10 SDRs and turning them into 40 to learn how to do that. So we do teach that. We did it reluctantly, we wanted to do this. We thought we're providing electricity dammit, hook it up and get your lights going and turn some motors, and then we discovered we amplify suck.
Chris Beall (32:13):
And we had to figure out something to do about it. And so out of desperation actually, trying to save a company in Austin, Texas that had been through an unfortunate experience and had $21 million stolen from them by their president. So the owner, I felt bad for him. And I offered him Mondays and Fridays unlimited for $25,000 for a month. And he jumped on it. Well, then we realized, oh my God, we only have Mondays and Fridays. We got to get this team to the highest possible level to save this company, to save these jobs. So we invented this flight school thing and we did it one session, like what's the most important part of the first seven seconds, right? We had the script already. We've now done it 85 times.
Chris Beall (33:00):
Believe it or not that generic pitch when you plug in the persona specific message which has one economic component, one emotional component, one strategic component in plain language, not divulging the actual service that you provide or the solution, that combination is teachable and we can get a rep up in one day from being hired to setting meetings. And in fourth of these sessions, they can be setting meetings at a 95th percentile in the population of all cold calling reps out there.
Chris Beall (33:36):
At that point, they start to feel like they know something about sales and business and you can build on those emotions. So yes, that's a long answer, but the answer is, yes it can be taught and we teach it every day.
Corey Frank (33:50):
Well, Santosh, you're always invited to these type of discussions here. We just like to riff and rant and share data and get in deep. So anything we can help with, just let us know. But thanks for indulging us on this time.
Chris Beall (34:03):
This will be three episodes, I think people are going to be just riveted. I think they're going to be riveted, this is good stuff. So thanks so much for coming on Santosh.
Corey Frank (34:13):
Well, great. Well, Santosh a pleasure, true pleasure. I have a feeling we have a number of guests that always have an open invitation for the virtual seat over there and clearly, with your mind and what Apollo is doing and what they're going to do, we expect to have you back if you're kind enough to indulge us again and again. Both of our businesses, both of our backgrounds, mine and Chris' right, is built on data. The market, the theory of market dominance is the bone structure is in good solid data and great to have a kindred spirit like you in the world and getting the same things that we're trying to get out there into goodness into people like me, sales reps, marketing reps, et cetera. So we appreciate your time and we appreciate you jumping on the Market Dominance Guys. So for Chris Beall, this is Corey Frank with the Market Dominance Guys, until next time
Sales and marketing departments usually operate as two separate entities. Although that’s not healthy for a business, it’s generally the reality in many companies. Santosh Sharan, president and COO of Apollo.io, joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, in this second of three conversations, to talk about the evolution of data as a business asset and how shared data — and unified leadership — can eliminate this unfortunate dichotomy of purpose, and fuse sales and marketing into one weapon with a single goal: market domination. “Sales is simple,” Santosh says, “You’re looking for an edge over your competitors.” It used to come primarily from developing relationships, which Chris defines as gaining your prospect’s trust. Now, though, getting the desired information or data to an interested prospect provides an increasingly important edge — if you can do it faster than your competitors can. And, thus, data joins trust as a necessary tool of sales. Learn more about this and other data- and sales-related insights in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Data & Trust: Your Assets in Market Domination.”
Listen to the previous and next parts of this interview
EP106: The Impact of the Human Voice EP104: The Increasing Atomic Weight of Data About Our Guest
Santosh Sharan, president and COO at Apollo.io, a leading data intelligence and sales engagement platform. Previously, Santosh was COO at LeadGenius, COO at Aberdeen, and VP at ZoomInfo.
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The complete transcript of this episode is here:
Announcer (00:06):
Sales and marketing departments usually operate as two separate entities. Although that's not healthy for a business, it's generally the reality in many companies. Santosh Sharan, President, and COO of apollo.io joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank in this second of three conversations to talk about the evolution of data as a business asset and how shared data and unified leadership can eliminate this unfortunate dichotomy of purpose and fuse sales and marketing into one weapon with a single goal, market domination. Sales is simple Santosh says. You're looking for an edge over your competitors. It used to come primarily from developing relationships, which Chris as gaining your prospect's trust. Now though, getting the desired information or data to an interested prospect provides an increasingly important edge, if you can do it faster than your competitors can. And thus, data joins trust as a necessary tool of sales. Learn more about this and other data and sales-related insights in today's Market Dominance Guys episode, 'Data & Trust: Your Assets in Market Domination.'
Corey Frank (01:45):
Chris talks about a connected cell and he's done many a podcast and panel discussion about weasels. And pigs and weasels in data, pigs and weasels and dials, probably in life too. I suppose we could extend this to the zest for life. When you see this Santosh, is it possible that sometimes the intentions, the well intentions that I have as a sales manager or VP or a CRO to get the best data for my team. But, I look at the evolutionary scale. Maybe my marketing eyes are bigger than my sales stomach, if you will. Right? And it ties in into Chris, your weasel and pigs analogy. What do you do when they're just operating at two different evolutionary mentalities? Who wins? Where's the lowest common denominator that you can apply that? Does that make sense for both you guys?
Chris Beall (02:39):
Yeah. I'm really mystified, but I do get the pigs and weasels thing. I don't know Santosh, if you even know our pigs and weasels analogy. But, it goes like this. At ConnectAndSell, we divide our users or people that we meet into two categories, pigs and weasels. We love pigs because pigs are hungry for the next conversation, no matter what the last one tasted like. And we don't like weasels, because they're trying to weasel out of the one thing you need to do in sales to gain proprietary advantage, which is hold an intelligent conversation with somebody. When we work with a company that will have sort of a rebellion among the reps who are saying, "We don't want to talk to anybody. Management is making us talk to people using this horrible ConnectAndSell thing, right? We have a name for that too. We call it a weasel fest.
This actually happens in every field, when you come right down to it. I've told this story... Actually, I told it to the Times of India, at one point. I was asked, "What in your career convinced you that you could do anything and be business." I said is when I was a landscape laborer working on the Indian Bend Wash in Scottsdale, Arizona at the McCormack ranch, soon-to-be McCormack ranch golf course. There were 22 of us on the team using shovels and rakes and stuff like that in order to take the vegetation off the side of this Washington, so that it could be nice and pretty and have grass planted on it.
And the shop went union and you know who they got rid of. They got rid of the weasels, this really intelligent company out of Canada and our three Hungarian bosses were just super smart guys. They identified the weasels and fired them. Because, when we went union, they couldn't afford all of us and they kept the seven pigs, no matter what the last shovel felt like. The last time we scraped something we were looking to do more, we were looking to improve, right? And so I think you're right, Corey, it does go all the way down, even into the world of landscape laboring. By the way, the reason I made this little video for the Times of India, as I was convinced by somebody that it would be so bizarre and amazing for people in India to see that a guy who used to be a landscape laborer with a shovel and a rake would be the CEO of a software company. To me, it was just the most normal thing in the world, right?
Where I grew up, sure, that kind of thing would happen. But, in different parts of the world, not only do we have different participation on the internet, but we have different ways that people come into the economy and there're all those changes going on. Again, all of which need to be captured in data and then used in intelligent ways.
Just to speak on another topic briefly. I came out of the world of electronic catalog and as you know, Corey, I was the guy who was foolish enough to think I could categorize and attribute all the world's products and services and publish it daily in 14 languages. So, all these new products would come out and sometimes we'd have to make a new category and then we'd know a specialty capacity for start motors have got amperage and they've got voltage, they've got max RPMs. We knew all of that stuff about every product that was bought or sold in industry.
When I think back on that, and I think about what you just said, Santosh, it's really interesting to me. You're saying basically that the people that we want to talk with and their companies are products and they have more and more interesting characteristics depending on what vertical they're in or what business they're in and what business we are in. So, it's actually more complex than the problem that I took on, which was just categorizing and attributing all the world's products and services. Even though there are a lot of them, there's 14,000, 15,000 categories. Here we might have a smaller number of categories of people who we want to speak with about business. It's not just sell to, but speak with about business. But, we ourselves are more complex.
Yeah. That is we are not individuals. We're companies and companies have a lot more variety than individuals in a lot of interesting ways. So, the cross product of all of that I think is where Apollo and other players in the space, when you look at a Bombora with intent or whatever. It's like, "How do I figure out my complexity and the complexity of the world of all these people out there and then the rate of change of all of it and get it down to something where I say the next thing I am going to do." Like Henry does out of the Ironman suit. The very next thing I should do with my time, the one thing I can't expand as a salesperson or as a businessperson is time. The next thing I should do with my time is try to with this particular person for this purpose.
That's so fascinating and that does grow without bound. I think that grows, that continues to grow, like that half of folks that aren't on the internet. Even without them coming onto the internet, this grows truly exponentially because the number of variables on one side, the number on the other side and the rate of change over time is such that we're not going to be able to have a unified field theory of it. We're just going to have to do. We're going to have guys like Santosh doing the work.
Corey Frank (07:53):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Santosh Sharan (07:55):
Yeah, that was well said. Just to follow up on that, within our client base, we see this phenomena that Corey described, where sales and marketing are on completely two different dimensions, right? That's just the reality of business, not necessarily healthy for the business. Now, how do we address it? I guess, first sharing a single tool stack definitely helps, right? Because, their version of reality is shared in that case. Oftentimes in larger companies, they have very different ways. They look at it, they are both acquiring data in different ways. Their ICPs are different. Their personas are different. They want different strategies for go-to-market, outbound versus inbound and so on. But just sharing, I think, tools, data, even having them report to a single person, leader. I think there are different strategies I've seen that help align. So, sales and marketing alignment is a highly discussed topic these days.
Corey Frank (08:54):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I would imagine, especially with what you do at Apollo and Chris is the mathematician here. I'm not sure what your background is Santosh, but you look at the traditional Cartesian coordinates X, Y-axis. X-axis was maybe to take your earlier historical analogy, Santosh, of name, address, phone number and then, maybe I added zip code to that. Now I have a LinkedIn profile and I have cell number and I have direct number. And then if I have the Y-axis, maybe, I have who my boss is, how many servers I've bought, the buying cycles. But then, you have this Z rotational axis that's happening as well in data. Which is maybe more like you said, the Bombora.
How do you... When you look at all three of those, is the competitive advantage I have as an organization now, to go with my data that has as much of... And I don't even know if these are the right terms, by the way. I'm a 17th century at least to beat the poetry major as most people know. So, that's the extent of my math is what I learned from Chris on these podcasts. But is that the right way to look at it, is an X and Y and a Z. And that extra traditional data sets that I can get, the intent data or what I've purchased in the past. Is that talk about a comic weight again.
Santosh Sharan (10:17):
That's a great... You articulated it very well by the way. So, let me see if I can respond to that, with clarity. With data, or without data, sales is very simple. Like Chris said, they're selling inventory and they have to sell it faster and more competitive than all the other vendors in the landscape. And they are all trying to do the same, right? So, you are continuously looking for an edge over your competitors. Where does the edge come from? Edge, there was some period of time where edge came from relationships, for instance. Now, we live in this day and age where business is moving at the speed of light and whatnot. So, now the demand origination before a buyer thinks they want something, if a seller knows that they want, or they have a faster sales cycle, somehow they're able to bring information faster because of automation or so on.
So, there are many elements that play a role into getting that competitive advantage. Whichever team is better into getting to that race faster, they will win. In some cases, maybe relationships still matters. But, we are now we are doing business at far larger scale, where you potentially can't have relationship with everyone. So, this is where data helps and this data could be on the X, Y, Z, that you computed. But, those are just technicalities, depending on the business you are operating in, maybe just X and Y is enough, maybe you need Z. Maybe you need alpha and beta and other dimensions as well. But, that's for the business leaders to decide.
Now, the one other thing I'll add, just another concept is, data is an appreciating asset for an enterprise. It's not a depreciating asset. What that means is, I truly believe that in several years from now, decades, every company will start to add amount of data they have to their balance sheet. Because, right now they have other forms of assets that are depreciating that are added. But, data is an appreciating asset. Because if you have, let's say a hundred thousand rows of records of whatever X, Y, Z-axis on multiple, your entire time. Then, you add 10 more records. What does it do? Those 10 more records are increasing the value of the other hundred thousand. Because, now you can correlate that and you can increase the value of your existing data. Now you have one more data element by which you can predict their behavior.
So with that in mind, every day that a company accumulates data, it's actually making the old data stronger and better and more useful. It's such an important asset. I don't think most savvy companies have been doing this for a long time. But, bulk of the economy doesn't look at data. They're looking at it as a sales tool.
Corey Frank (13:12):
Yeah.
Santosh Sharan (13:13):
They're not looking at as an institutional knowledge depository.
Corey Frank (13:18):
It's a shame because, I know... Chris, you can chime in on this and Market Dominance Guys, certainly the premise for the show is about getting to 51% reach in your total addressable market by having trust-based conversations.
Corey Frank (14:09):
And so, Chris, what do you say with what Santosh is communicating? It certainly has an element on the balance sheet and will. I agree with that. That's very well said. But, in terms of pure market dominance, every conversation I have takes away potentially from the competition. I'm educating my market that more so, and that has a quantifiable aspect, I would assume too. Does it not Chris?
Chris Beall (14:35):
Yeah. It does. I agree deeply by the way, that data is an appreciating asset, which is quite shocking actually to almost everybody, if they think it through. But, it's absolutely correct. And I have some examples I'm looking at right here. So, I'm going to amplify that first. But, it really goes to your point, Corey. I'm looking at the month of October. Today is the 12th of October. Day is not quite done, looking at our own team and asking the question about the quantifiable aspect of data that represents relationships between people who work on our team and therefore our company and folks that we would like to do business with, or at least we'd like to have a meeting with them about doing business.
I'm looking in order of conversion rates, conversation and meeting conversion rates top to bottom. That's the efficiency number. Once I start with a conversation, do I get to convert it to a meeting? Here's the data that represents that appreciating asset of trust that is being built with these folks. First is Cheryl Turner's follow list. Then there's, Shea Garber's missed meeting list, another follow-up list. Then there's, another follow list, past two calls last 30 days, 31 to 90 days. Jerry Hill's follow-up list top priority, get it? Reschedule, no-show meetings. I still haven't come up with a cold list yet. Mark Cajun I'm coming down, down, down. I still haven't come up with a list of raw data. In other words, this data is data that has started as raw data. It started just as contact information. It's been processed through the process of having conversations. And now, the results of those conversations are baked into the data so that it's used differently.
We know precisely when we want to follow up with these people. We know what we want to say to them one to one fully personalized. We know what we hope the outcome will be. That outcome gets recorded. So, I actually think the way all this stuff comes together is that data represents things that are happening within the business and within relationships, but also supports nurturing those relationships in a human way. And, it's that cycle, I think, that's the modern magic of data. When the internet started to be usable to do what we're doing here, which is video over IP. It's the other void. So, here we are doing video over IP. But, it started doing voice-over IP. And we know that the human voice carries a huge information load, 20,000 bits a second of information compared to the 5,000 bits in an entire email.
So, a quarter of a second of a human conversation is the equivalent of an email. Well, clearly that's not the words. None of us speak that fast. Even New Yorkers don't speak that fast. But, what really is happening is, we're communicating with each other as human beings in order to ascertain whether there's enough reason to move forward, including, "Do I trust you? Do you trust me?" And particularly if you're the buyer, you've got to trust me more than you trust yourself. I'm the seller, I'm the specialist. I know more than you do about what it is that you think about buying. You're putting yourself in my hands and you have to trust me before you really care if I'm competent or whether my product's any good. Because otherwise, what's the point? The better my product and the less trustworthy I am, the more trouble you're in. As the buyer, you're getting in deeper and deeper.
So, it's really interesting how data and trust and evolving relationships go together on the balance sheet. And nobody has yet set up the, I'll call it the assay office, to come and appraise your company based on the value of all of that. What we do is we just do a subtraction exercise. We take the book value and we subtract it from your hoped for, or whatever somebody thinks your enterprise value is, transacted or not transacted. We subtract one number from the other and we call it Goodwill. But the Goodwill of today is represented concretely in the data you have and in the relationships tied to that data and represented by that data. And in the ability of that data to further those relationships in ways that let you survive. I equate market dominance in survival. Because to me, if you fail to dominate in the market, and I define a market narrowly. As you know, it's truly a list of folks such that for each somebody on that list, if you successfully sell to them, it lowers your cost and risk of selling to every other entity on that list.
That's the definition of a market and they're bounded by those relationships and that requirement much like surface tension, bounds a water droplet. There's a reason we don't have raindrops that are the size of cars. They can only get so big before the movement, through the air breaks them up. The surface tension can't hold them. Markets are like that. They tend to be smaller than people think. In Santosh's world, number one thing you do with Apollo's data is you say, "Well, what's my market?" Most people do it wrong. They want to go, "How big is it?" The real question is, "How small can I make it so I can dominate it and still produce enough gross profit to exceed my overhead?" That's the actual business question, not how big is it? So, I can impress some venture capitalists. They'll write me checks and own my company. But, how small can it be and still be big enough to suit the purpose of dominating.
If I look at that and I say, "Well, how do I know that I'm dominating?" Well, once I make that list. Who am I building relationships with? What do I know about them? And concretely what's happening? What's converting to meetings? What's happening in those meetings? What's going into follow-ups? Are those follow-ups known or unknown in terms of when they're going to happen and what the outcomes are? I think though, Santosh, when you say data is an appreciating asset, the mechanisms by which it appreciates, I think are quite fascinating, little measured, and they represent the bulk of our economy now. So basically, we live in a mystery economy as far as I can tell.
Santosh Sharan (20:48):
No. You said so many things that are resonated with me. We certainly... Those Milton and Keen's economic theories are no longer valid in the current day and age. Market dominance, you said survival is dominance. That's so true because we live in 'winner take all' models. Every segment, if you see there is like a CRM. There are 50 CRM companies, but only one or two of them take 85% of the market share. And then, the rest of them are fighting for jump change. That's happening in every sector. The reason is very simple because buyers are interconnected. There's information transparency. So whatever good ideas are getting overhyped, bad ideas are getting over-punished. And that's happening in stock market, in asset prices in companies. No different. Humans are human. They just talk to each other and everybody wants to invest in the same thing.
I think this has some very interesting implications on how... As you were going through those lists, what struck me is these lists of your customers are really... It's like a slice of the market, a prioritized slice of the market they want to go after today. And then, whoever can get to a larger slice, in limited time and expense will win. Really, dominance is about the pace at which they can get more successful outcomes. And outcomes could come because they are experienced or they have, however else. It doesn't matter. They use one tool or the other, or one approach or the other. But eventually, as they go through these slices of market, fast enough, they have to demonstrate that credibility and trust. That's kind of the final frontier and...
Corey Frank (22:43):
Credibility and trust. And I would also add to that, as we talked about weasels and pigs, is the mentality across marketing and sales and the executive leadership aligned where they want to dominate a market. Versus they're just happy to be there. Because I know from a sales reps perspective, I could say, "Listen. I'll take any MarTech tool that will keep Chris off my butt. That will give me even mere basis points, increases where I can do the same amount of work hours, but maybe do a little bit more performance." And to me, I think to Chris, I think certainly to you with your success, that's a mentality that we've got to get rid of in our organizations. Because we only want the pigs who say, "Listen now, how do I take the best of a tool like Apollo, a weapon, like Apollo. Best of a weapon, like ConnectAndSell in arm, truly to a Tony Stark like the person who's inside that suit, who wants to save the world, who wants to save men's souls."
Oftentimes that's misaligned is we have the right intentions from the boardroom, from the CRO, from RP&L, but it gets to the person who actually has to pull the trigger. And they're like, "Eh, this is cool. But, what do you want me to do with this?" And, that's certainly frustrating as leaders today. The people who are in the lab with the white jackets and the glasses is on the bridge of their nose and test tubes coming up with this great stuff from the Apollo labs. It's imported very carefully and there're all kinds of clean suits putting into the ConnectAndSell weapon and they're aiming and taking place. But downfield, a lot of the reps are just like, "Eh." And I think it just bears that the lowest common denominator still oftentimes rules all, in the world of sales and marketing.
Chris Beall (24:28):
Wow. It comes out in so many ways too. It's such a great point. I'm thinking as you're describing all that. Somebody like Cheryl Turner, who's been on this show who works at ConnectAndSell. She's looking to help every single person she talks with. She knows damn well that they will be helped by attending a meeting to learn about how conversations can change the trajectory of their company's future. So, she doesn't let them bill otherwise.
Corey Frank (24:57):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (24:57):
It's that last maneuver, Scott Webb called me today and said he was excited. Now this guy's a chief sales officer of a multi-billion dollar company. He said, "Chris, today, I talked to 10 people that are going to be attending a conference that I'm speaking at. I set meetings with 9 of them. I didn't get a meeting with the other because he actually won't be attending. So, I went nine for nine." I think this is a breakthrough. Right?
That's, that attitude that we're talking about, which is regardless of the level in the organization, if you hire for that dominance, that willingness, as they say in the NFL to go across the middle and not get alligator arms. To actually be willing to extend and take the hit in order to make the thing happen. That's where the magic really happens. I think that's the flaw in the tech stack approach to sales, is the idea is to say, "I got a stack. Now you don't have to work anymore."
Corey Frank (25:52):
Right.
Chris Beall (25:53):
We have a customer that we're talking with and it's like, "Well, we're going to specialize over here and just have the callers. Then, these other SDRs, "Well, they won't do the data and they won't do the calling and they'll use outreach to sync." What do you mean? Are they going to work at all? Are they going to do anything? I guess they'll be pushing the button to send the emails in the various directions and maybe that's going to be effective. Who knows? You know?
Corey Frank (26:14):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (26:14):
Every experiment is worth a shot. But, that last part, and it's not actually an aggressive attitude about dominance. That's what's funny about market dominance. Market dominance is a service to the market. The market wants a player they can trust. And every segment, every sub-segment, every group of self inter-referencing folks really wants the comfort of knowing that they can turn to somebody to solve a particular class of problem today, or when they're ready to go after that solution. If you fail to establish yourself in that way, with at least one market, you failed them. Who are they going to turn to? Well, apparently somebody else, right?
At the very front lines, that attitude of service, I'll call it insistent service. I'm going to pull you out of the way of this bus, because I know it's not good to get hit by buses. You just don't know that yet. And by the way, it's a foggy day and you don't see the bus coming. I actually got to do that once with somebody. Got to actually put my hand in front of him, kept him from walking inside in front of a bus. It was a reflex on my part. You think about that and go, "Okay." That's what you're trying to do in sales is, you're trying to keep somebody from stepping in front of a bus they can't see, because of the fog. Because, you have fog penetrating radar that can see buses and save lives and as you say, save souls. That's where the game is played. And I think when you hire, if you hire for that and nothing else, you will succeed in building your business and that's often not done.
Corey Frank (27:52):
That's beautiful. Well, clearly that's what you've done in your career Santosh, between Aberdeen and Lead and certainly why I think that they did everything possible to get you to come over to Apollo as the new president. So, we're coming up. We're going to get the hook on time here. And you got a couple of data geeks, three data geeks here who can certainly talk all day about this. But, we always get to this point of these conversations, we talk about the prognostication. Chris hates this part because he doesn't like to use it. Chris left his crystal ball in his trunk. There you go. There's his crystal ball. It's empty. But, when you look at these different levels. We have the X-axis, Y-axis and the Z. And you mentioned the alpha, beta and the other dimensions. Where do you see it... Without giving away too many of the trade secrets and what's going on in Apollo labs, where do you see guys like me on the sales side, getting extra enhancements or extra superpowers, extra spider bites from looking at some of these new dimensions that you...
Santosh Sharan (28:48):
There's a product that we are already working on. In fact, we already rolled out a version that's part of Apollo. Think of the job. I don't think the sales reps job will ever be fully automated. They just tweak a few dial and it works. So, you still have to talk and educate the buyer and pull them out of the bus like Chris says. But, everything else can be automated. Now there is so much data that potentially it cannot consume all the data. It's not humanly possible. They have 500 accounts they're sitting on, named accounts and something is happening to each of those accounts every day. There are opportunities popping up. But then, who's going to tell them? Now, what we have built is not surprisingly, we call it autopilot. It's inspired by Tesla's autopilot where the driver still needs to be there in the seat. But then, it assesses you, warns you here and there a few times.
So similarly, we built this autopilot that looks at all the data you have access to. All means, all the CRM data, all the market data, all the changes that are going on. And then, it'll suddenly pop up an opportunity saying, "Ah, do you realize there was, we used to have this customer, eight months ago. He was a power user because I went and verified the usage logs from... And now he just turned out. He's joined this company as VP marketing, which could be a great candidate for you." Now, how in the world would we know? So, by correlating information, based on the past info. There is a mammoth amount of number crunching that needs to happen to find these golden nuggets through hyper correlation of millions of records.
That's where I think the future... Depends on the timeline, how far we go. But somewhere in near term, I think the data is exploding so much that you need some sort of autopilot or navigated kind of guidance system. Like a side Cape to a rep that will tell them which data to look at. Now, even this autopilot, it just recommends feed. It just tells you, "Here are few things I brought up." It pulls up 10 things every morning. And then you can look at it. You say, "Yeah, this is interesting. This is not interesting." And then, it learns using AI and next time it'll give you a more relevant recommendations.
Corey Frank (31:09):
Well, that's critical.
Announcer (31:11):
Tune in next week for the third part of this interview. If you miss the first one, go back and listen to that too. So, you have the full story and all the advice you are going to need to put you on your way to market dominance.
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Sales used to be considered a trick done by salespeople, but success in sales today relies more and more on collecting information, analyzing the resulting data, and then using it to finetune your sales department’s approach to prospects. Santosh Sharan, president and COO of Apollo.io joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank, in this first of three conversations about instrumentation that collects data and how careful analysis can help make sense of that data in order to provide guided intelligence to sales teams. Join these three sales-minded experts as they walk you through what to do with all the data you collect in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Increasing Atomic Weight of Data.”
About Our Guest
Santosh Sharan, president and COO at Apollo.io, a leading data intelligence and sales engagement platform. Previously, Santosh was COO at LeadGenius, COO at Aberdeen, and VP at ZoomInfo.
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The full transcript of this episode is here:
Sales used to be considered a trick done by salespeople, but success in sales today relies more and more on collecting information, analyzing the resulting data, and then using it to finetune your sales department's approach to prospects.
Santosh Sharan, President and COO of Apollo.io joins our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, in this first of three conversations about instrumentation that collects data and how careful analysis can help make sense of that data in order to provide guided intelligence to sales teams. Join these three sales-minded experts as they walk you through what to do with all the data you collect in this week's Market Dominance Guys' episode, The Increasing Atomic Weight of Data.
Corey Frank (01:14):
Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the indomitable, Chris Beall, the Sage of Sales, CEO of ConnectAndSell. Good afternoon, Chris. How are you?
Chris Beall (01:25):
Hey, Corey, I'm doing good, back from Italy and happy to see it.
Corey Frank (01:28):
That's a big back from Italy and really happy, but I'll take that for what it is. But I'm sure you and Ms. Fanucci had many, a wine label that was retired, over the course. That's for the post-show, I think. But we're happy here. We don't want to waste any more time than we have. We're with Santosh Sharan, who is now the President and COO of Apollo.io. And if anybody within the sound of my voice is not subscribed or using Apollo.io and you call yourself a professional salesperson, you're clearly like to operate with one arm behind your back.
But I think what Chris and I are so interested in hearing about today here, Santosh, is your background is certainly you've been a data guy. You're not a carpetbagger. You're not a tourist. This is the industry that you have lived and cut your teeth in for many, many a year, including over at LeadGenius and a little company called Zoominfo. And then of course, I was geeking out before we hit the record button here, but your experience with Aberdeen and Spiceworks.
Since I'm an old IT guy at heart and that community of Spiceworks and Aberdeen that you guys created, we were talking about how really the AISP Community that we have today, the community certainly led by thought leaders, such as Chris Beall and Ryan Treasure and the boroughs of the world, and guys like that. That's what we need in our sales data world today, is what you guys built in Spiceworks.
So if anything, that contribution to, you were saying earlier is that the data comes from content and really, really liked that, Santosh. And maybe we start with that since you're a data guy at heart, but you really build these engaging communities that produce better content, which in turn produces more data. And you have this little flywheel effect that saves.
Santosh Sharan (03:21):
Yeah. Thank you for inviting me. I'm glad to be here with you, Corey and Chris. The way I look at data is, data is a computational representation of reality. So if you allow me to geek out, why do we need data? It's really to simulate real our world problems so computers can run simulations and solve problems. So this computational representation is like an exhaust that comes out of either community or content or multiple other ways that you source data.
But this is also why accurately they're so important. Because if you're simulating something of inaccurate information, then clearly the outcome is going to be inaccurate. And where we stand, even though our discussion will mostly be around the use of data in sales and marketing, but if you think about it, sales and marketing is ahead in some ways using data, but in coming decades and years, you would see use of data in many other.
You already see data being used in recruitment, finance, a few other places. But I think sales and marketing is a very interesting segment to leverage data. Because deals historically, it's all been about human interaction. A good marketer just had a good gut feel 10 years ago, a good CMO. Now, what's happening is like good engineers, we are taking the sales problems or marketing problems or breaking these down into small silos and using data to optimize the silos, whether it's lower in the funnel, top of the funnel or different interactions. And then using automation, we are trying to remove all the inefficiencies.
And one last point that I'll tell for now, sales and marketing contribute to about 30 to 40% of any balance sheet. And there's so much inefficiency because it was not optimized, without data or without automation or without that engineering-type outlook. This is an area of balance sheet that has not been as optimized as operations, finance or some other areas have been. But finally, I think this is one of the frontiers that in the coming decade, or certainly in the last decade you have you seen it getting to.
Corey Frank (05:52):
Why do you think it hasn't been maximized or given the attention that it needs on the balance sheet? You're at ConnectAndSell and you do 5 million. I think your team is responsible for 5 million calls a month come through your pipes, so that's a lot of data. That's a lot of records, more than the average bear, I think is probably the biggest of the bears. But why isn't it had the attention that you think it should have been? What have you seen from churning at a data side, Chris, those 5 million records a month?
Chris Beall (06:23):
I think there've been two reasons. One is that the role of sales in the capitalist economy, when you're factory-bound, when everything is bound by factories producing widgets or producing whatever, has essentially been, I'll put it crudely and I've said it before on the show, to dispose of inventory at sufficient gross profit to keep the lights on. And so the way we've run sales, as we said, sales is a trick done by salespeople. It's almost like if somebody asks a physicist, "What's time?" They say, "Time is what's measured by clocks." So sales is what's done by salespeople and that's it. That's all we knew.
And so what we would do is we say to a salesperson, "Hey, here's your territory. It's your business. And please do go dispose of all of our inventory at whatever prices you can get for it," which is why salespeople who ran territories had discounting authority up to some point because it would affect the margins. But the main thing was, you can't have the output inventory of a factory just pile up forever. You got to get rid of it. You got to get it out into the market.
So that argued for just manage sales like this. Hire a sales rep, put them out in a territory. And if they don't work out, fire them and get another one. And make sure your best territories have your best reps. I think that sums up sales management for about 150 years.
And then something happened. Software came along and got rid of the idea that most of the world's value is represented by factory inventory. So an ever-increasing chunk of the world's economic value is represented by either mind stuff, in the form of software. It doesn't exist until you use it. And then it politely goes away.
So really, there's no inventory to dispose of. Microsoft doesn't have a certain number of units of Windows 11 piling up in their warehouse. So my fiance, Helen Fanucci, who you referred to, she's responsible for making some things happen saleswise. You know how many digits there are in that. I guarantee you, there is a fair number. And yet there's no inventory to move. Now in a way there is. Azure cloud has a certain capacity. But trust me, they're building it as fast as they can. So they're not looking to have somebody sell it out. So that's part of it, as the role has changed.
And now sales has a different role. And the role is to take companies into the marketplace. And ultimately per my thesis, therefore, to bring safety. Companies got a business all the time. The only ones that are safe are the ones that are dominating markets. And so organic growth is our instrument of market dominance now.
Sure we still have M&A going on and all that. But with private equity coming in and pricing stuff up and being so aggressive, it's hard for strategics to play, I'll call it the old M&A game as their only strategy game. You got to be able to go into markets. And the world of startups, of course, is all about go to market. Ultimately you've got to be able to go sell.
The other thing is that it was very hard to get closed-loop information out of sales. Salespersons are out in their territory. Talk to anybody who sells in commercial real estate or runs a commercial real estate company. Ask what the single hardest thing to get a commercial real estate broker to do. It's to put data in the CRM.
Why? Because they're like hairdressers. The idea is if they don't like their working conditions, so to speak, they pull up roots and they go somewhere else. And they take their clients with them. They take their book with them.
Remember back when you used to hire sales reps, it's like, "Hey, comes with a great Rolodex." Those are people they know, or it's people are going to steal. In some industries, it was always people that they are going to steal because they never saw them as not there. So they were there from the get go, and I'm just keeping them. Hairdressers do this all the time. All sorts of people do it.
So without even something as primitive as data in the CRM, which is pretty primitive when you compare it to the flow of data that say comes out of those 5 million conversations a month. I can look right now at one of my customers. I'll look at them. And here they did a little something. We call it flight school. Today, there was a group of, I don't know, about 26 of them had 132 conversations in 1 hour and 22 minutes to set eight meetings on 5,958 dials. And we know their average, wait time was exactly 11 minutes. We know they're dialed to meeting with 744.75 to 1. We know their dial to connect was 45.14 to 1. We know what their conversion rate was to a part of a percentage point. We know how many referrals they got. We know how many follow-ups, blah blah blah blah. But that's what we have now.
More and more instrumentation that allows us to close the loop between what we want to do, what our intentions were and what actually happened.
Chris Beall (11:54):
And without a closed-loop, data's not a reference. It's a representation of reality maybe, or it's just a representation of what somebody thought was going on.
Corey Frank (12:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So to get that, and Santosh, I think you can chime in here, is that where you came from, even before Aberdeen, when you looked at data as a CEO, as a president, Chris, certainly you too, running sales teams for many, many years, how has the atomic weight of data as a sales guy, how has it changed?
And you had mentioned, "If I have a good database, if I'm going through an acquisition, that has real value on my P&L now." Whereas before it was, "I had a Rolodex of clients," but now it's not just about the clients, maybe about my methodology. It's about who picked up the phone versus who did an email and who responds to white paper content regularly, all of that.
So a little bit about what's changed. What have you seen changed in the data world, both you guys, in the respective companies that you've led in the sales teams over the last few years?
Santosh Sharan (13:06):
Yeah. I can take the first step. So a long back, especially for a sales team, data was all about what they saw in the CRM. Just customer records. It started with the Rolodex. Or even before, if you go back, the data was started with the Yellow Pages, where the traveling salesman, whoever digitize that Yellow Page spun off the data industry in some way.
So that evolution has continued and continues to get complex. But you used a very interesting word, atomic weight of data. I like that. Initially it was only CRM, but fast forward there is so much data around that CRM data, that has increased that atomic rating in some way. Data on demand, on timing, on past behavior. What tools have they bought in the past? What is the intent to buy in the future? And are they exhibiting certain traits? Are they hiring for certain roles that will make them good candidates to buy a sales tool? Has there been any recent Exec change? Have they raised around the financing?
So all these other pieces of information that we correlate that makes, I guess the job of the sales rep, you can say a little easier. I shouldn't say it's easier. It provides some guided intelligence.
Corey Frank (14:37):
I think that word guided intelligence, Chris, you and I have spoken about it. I think we had a couple of guests on at one time or another on our well over 100 episodes now. I think we're cracked into three digits of the number of episodes, where we talked about the mythology that certain reps have for data.
If you remember Harvey Mackay had the MACKAY 66. I think it was dig your well before you're thirsty were his guidance for his... He sold envelopes. You remember when we're with Harvey? Swim with the sharks before you're eaten alive. He lives out here in Phoenix. And great best-selling author. And the MACKAY 66 was about, "Can I get 66 pieces of information on every one of my prospects or clients?" Not at once, but over my relationship, their birthday, their spouse's name, they'd like to golf or tennis, which their favorite bourbon. And as I amass this data, I like the term he used, boss behavior. That's a good one.
Because I may have a great prospect. But if I'm working inside an organization that has a sense where it's a not invented here shop. Or it's a very methodical buying shop. All these mythologies exists that I may give a lead to Corey Frank, here you go, this is a good lead. He's a CEO of a large SaaS company. His name is Chris Beall. And his fiance is Helen Fanucci. And he has this much of experience. He's good at math. Great.
What else can I get about him? What do you see in terms of that? Because it's becoming more and more rich. And where is this tipping point? And what are the factors that I care a little bit more about than others when I'm a sales rep collecting this data or a sales manager, trying to collect data? Chris, I bet you have a distinctly different perspective on this than Santosh, for sure.
Chris Beall (16:25):
What does that mean? I have to go first.
Corey Frank (16:29):
This is the part where we have a little tension. We throw it in there because especially germane with what ConnectAndSell does versus setting up all this other data, I think it would be interesting to talk about that.
Chris Beall (16:43):
It's interesting because Santosh, I think you're right in some ways. The job has gotten easier. But the fun thing about sales is how easy or hard the job is, it always turns out to be irrelevant. It's only what you can do competitively that counts. Sales does that one part of business where competition not internal, but external competition, ultimately rules.
I think it's one of the reasons sales leaders don't last very long. It's because nobody knows how to be competitive in a predictable way. They're trying to predict everything about the market, but they can't predict whether they will actually win the competition with whoever it is that's out there, that they're fighting with. If they can figure out even who that is. And if they can do it before they get canned or run out of money or whatever crazy thing happens. So it's kind of funny.
I make the distinction between three categories of data. There's publicly available data that anybody can get without doing anything. Google is providing us huge amounts of that. When somebody says that, "I'm going to meet with the guy tomorrow. And he's a CEO of a company that I don't really know very much about. And all I did was just went out and Googled him. And in less than five minutes, I knew many, many more than 66 things about him. Many, many, many more." And guess what? So with anybody else who's meeting.
So I would put that in the domain of publicly available data that might take a little skill, not much. I will put for public companies, their last quarterly earnings or the transcript of that call contains an amazing amount of valuable information about that company's intentions. If the CEO mentions a product that they're actually taking to market in the first three paragraphs, he's panicked. That's just as simple as that. CEOs don't like to talk about being saved by-products. Because that sounds really, really bad. But if they acquired a company and they think that they've got to do something in the market, they'll throw that bone to these analysts and mention a product. Okay, well that tells you something about their company.
Still publicly available. It takes a little bit more business acumen to process it and turn it into something of value. And there's only so much of it you can process per unit time. You're only so good at whatever you do.
Then there's the world of I'll call it private data. Private data comes out of conversations, is completely proprietary. Tomorrow when I have this conversation with the CEO in question, I will learn things as well he, that no one else on earth knows. And some of it will be emotional stuff. It'll be subtleties in the conversation. It'll be what lights him up. What does he hesitate on? Some of it will just be things he's likely to tell me that he wouldn't publish to the world.
And then in between, there is not publicly available data per se. You can't Google it up, but it's acquirable data. And there's market made in that data. Santosh's company is a brilliant example of making market in that data. And in more than that, because they also make market functionality around the data. Like, what do you want to do with them? Do you want to call them? Do you want to send them an email? You can act on the data.
So it's where pay for the combo privilege, I'd call it, of knowing more than the other guy and speeding up and being more precise in your actions. And that's the deadly combination that if you combine it with private data, proprietary data allows you to take a dominant position in the marketplace because you see more than anybody else and you can react to it.
So I make those three distinctions. One of them grows a little bit every day, publicly available data. One of them only grows when you have conversations, that's our business, taking folks from two conversations to 50 or whatever. So if they're good, they have 25 times as much privately available data, they'd have proprietary data.
And Santosh's business, I think, and you can correct me if you're wrong, is to make the data that is kind of publicly available, make it make sense to you and your organization. So you can use it to guide action and become both more efficient and more effective with the resources you have to hand today, which are your sales reps and your products pretty much. That's kind of my view.
Santosh Sharan (20:49):
I love the way you described, Chris, this publicly available data. And then data that an expert can acquire. And then private data. I'll just continue with your classification.
I think what we do or a lot of data companies do is 10 years ago, an expert sales rep or a manager, what they could do with lots of training and intuition now with data and automation, somebody right out of college can do that. Or the outcome could be as efficient. And it's not just using Apollo, but also using ConnectAndSell. And there are many other tools, not just the two of us.
So if I bring in another element to this discussion, which I find interesting, when I think about what's giving rise to so much of data, I think it's inherently, the value of human attention has gone up. We are all continuously distracted with 10 other things. Even in every category, they used to be one or two companies dominating that category. Now there are 40 companies. So even buyers have problems dealing with which one of these 40 should I go with?
So salespeople have to deal with this cost of buyer attention or human attention in general. How do they deal with it to increase personalization? And they have to do this at scale. And this is where I think automation and data comes in.
And I'll just say one more thing. So with all this data and intelligence and automation, it doesn't make the sales reps redundant in the job. If anything, it pushes the rep to just focus on what they should have focused on right from the beginning, which is to build that trust and credibility.
And this is where Chris's company comes in with the calling, with that human voice, provides the trust and credibility. But all they should be doing is providing education to the buyers. Instead, where sales reps spend time is 80 to 90% on everything else. And hopefully with technology and automation, they won't have to do that. That's almost the redundant job that should be outsourced to some machine.
Corey Frank (23:14):
I'm curious as a sales guy, when I look at just number of fields. And you have these inflection, these power up levels, when you look at old Harte Hanks info USA data, that I think the three of us probably called through the old mechanism probably similar to this, that old rotary phone.
When you look at data like that, Santosh, what have you seen as the different inflection points over the years, especially coming from LeadGenius and Spiceworks? Again, maybe to come back to content. Or is it certain added fields? Cell numbers was a big inflection point when you could get cell numbers attached to data was a big thing, five, seven years ago. Now, what do you think it is?
Santosh Sharan (23:59):
Let me take you back 40 years. But that's a really good question. I love historical perspective because when you look at things from long term, everything in life is just the same pattern being repeated, again and again.
If you go back into time, like 1960s, 70s when the telephone directory was digitized in CD-ROM. So there was a lot of data. So we go through this phase where there's expansion of data. And then people don't know what to deal with so much data.
First, they want data because there's none. Then there's too much data. Then there is new technology to make that data meaningful by contracting. And then there's too little data because human evolution catches up. And then there's expansion. So let me just walk you through three or four of these pivot points that you talk about.
So when there was too much data from phone directories, somebody got the brilliant idea of compiling this phone directory by prosperous zip codes. And for a while, that worked really well. And then everybody had a phone, so there was way too much phone directories eventually. So the CD-ROM thing didn't work very well.
So this is when Harte Hank started their market intelligence data or the call centers. And this is still 40 years ago. So they had thousands of people, if not tens of thousands. In fact, Aberdeen was a spinoff from Harte Hanks, so a lot of them. Now, you manage to contract data because of [inaudible 00:25:33]. Now you could say, "I don't just want only VP marketing. I want the VP marketing that has bought a Xerox printer in the past. Or that is willing to invest in a Unisys mini-computer worth millions of dollars."
Then the internet came in the 90s. So then it made sense. So Jonathan, who was the founder of Zoominfo got that brilliant idea of scraping the internet to compile the same data. Now again, we started a new pivot point. Because now again, the data became too much. So you started compiling then there were tens of millions of contacts.
So compare that to the full directories that became millions and Harte Hanks call-center kind of created sanity and that's why Harte Hanks had a multi-billion dollar valuation. So now you had so much of data being compiled to internet. In the beginning, it was great. You could go in such in these tools and get, you know? But then there's too much data.
So not surprisingly, you see companies like EG DATA, [inaudible 00:26:41] or Bombora or [inaudible 00:26:44]. These initiatives are helping call... They are like filters. So you don't have to look for only VP market. You can look for it by certain criteria. And Apollo builds some of that as well. But this will continue all the time. Because it's like our pursuit of knowledge. It never stops. So pursuit for data we'll always have more and more advanced features by which we will find... And I think it'll become more niched and more vertical oriented. I think we are exhausting the horizontal approach.
Now there might be specific filters for legal industry or real estate like Chris was talking about. So the same data, but then think about Zoominfo or Apollo is going to have only so many filter that applies to everybody. Then if there's an conductor of Apollo or Zoominfo only for real estate, then we can have filters like, is it a commercial real estate? Is it residential? Is it a multi-family home? Or single family? Things that we don't provide.
So I think those are some of the data elements that will be, I guess, discovered in the future. In the meantime, the overall size of data as people log onto the internet and use more. So remember, if we feel like the internet is saturated because we live in the US. But globally, there's still about half the world yet to join the internet, which means the size of these databases will just continue to rise and explore.
Corey Frank (28:24):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You just gave the mother of all excuses to any sales reps who's listening to why I miss my numbers because only there's so much of the world that still isn't on the internet and I can't get to them. My territory is a little too small. That's what I heard as a sales guy. It's insane.
Is the goal of each member of your sales team to dominate your company’s market? Or is their goal to make their sales quotas? According to our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, it should be “Dominate or die!” This week, Chris shares with our podcast audience a Selling Power webinar he calls “How to Achieve Market Dominance,” in which he details the steps necessary to do just that: dominate your market! In this first part of a three-part series, Chris defines the terms “market” and “addressable market,” and then goes on to explain precisely what information you need to obtain from your addressable market prospects when you have a conversation with them. Using a clear and organized approach, Chris will lead you to an understanding of this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ topic, “What Do You Do With an Addressable Market?” As usual, you’ll walk away from this how-to guide with insights and strategies to help your company on its way to dominating its market.
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Here is the transcript to the full episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Is the goal of each member of your sales team to dominate your company's market, or is there a goal to make their sales quotas? According to our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, it should be dominate or die. This week, Chris shares with our podcast audience a selling power webinar he calls, how to achieve market dominance? In which he details the steps necessary to do just that dominate your market. In this first part of a three-part series, Chris defines the terms market and addressable market, and then goes on to explain precisely what information you need to obtain from your addressable market prospects when you have a conversation with them.
Using a clear and organized approach, Chris will lead you to an understanding of this week's Market Dominance Guys topic. What do you do with an addressable market? As usual, you'll walk away from this, how-to guide with insights and strategies to help your company on its way to dominating its market.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (01:27):
Hi. My name is Gerhard Gschwandtner, I'm the founder and publisher of Selling Power magazine. I want to welcome you to our webinar. With me is Chris Beall, he's the CEO of ConnectAndSell. Hi, Chris.
Chris Beall (01:39):
Hey. Hi, Gerhard, it's great to be with you back from Italy.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (01:43):
Well, I'm glad you took some time off and recharged and feel like a Renaissance man, right?
Chris Beall (01:49):
I'm fired up to broaden my scope of understanding and appreciation.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (01:55):
And you have a fresh perspective on how to achieve market dominance. And before we dive in, Chris, can we do a quick poll with the audience? I want to welcome everybody to think about when you want to ask question, type him in, then we're going to pick him up on the fly. We also have about 10 minutes at the end for a Q and A, so let's show the audience poll in the beginning.
Who on your team is responsible for creating and maintaining prospecting target lists? Is it marketing? Is it sales development reps, sales leadership, or a research team? Think about those four questions and check the box. Chris and I will look at the results and share them with you. Right now, I'm seeing this in the real-time. Marketing and sales development reps are in the lead, sales leadership is third, and the research team does not exist at this point, doesn't have a showing.
Chris Beall (03:01):
I don't know if that horse didn't even show up for the race.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (03:04):
Didn't that horse didn't come? It didn't come in.
Chris Beall (03:09):
If this were the race in Sienna, the horse is still in the church being blessed.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (03:15):
So, is it true that they ride horses in the middle of those small towns?
Chris Beall (03:19):
In that one in Sienna, they have a horse race with 10 horses each year. Right in the square in town, they bring in dirt and put mattresses up to keep people from dying and they ride bareback.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (03:31):
Amazing.
Chris Beall (03:32):
Yeah.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (03:33):
So, the leading horse is marketing. The second horse is sales development reps and sales leadership. And there's no research team among our audience today. What do you make of that?
Chris Beall (03:44):
Well, it's interesting. It actually speaks to the heart of what I want to talk about today, but it depends on how you think of the purpose of sales in the business. And there's a major change came about because of software as-a-Service. Primarily, software eating the world, as they say, in which the role of sales, the old role of sales was really to dispose of inventory at a gross profit in order to keep the lights on at the factory and maybe generate some net profit, which you could use to expand the business. So, this is what we called... I believe the term for is capitalism, and the idea is that you put capital to work. Most people think of that as money, but capital is actually plant and equipment and stuff like that. And you produce stuff, you make things and when you make things, of course, you've got to get rid of them.
And so, sales job was to get rid of the things you made and turn them back into dollars, so that you could pay to do stuff. The role of sales actually has fundamentally changed in the economy, and most people don't recognize it. And that's really the why behind this entire webinar, it's the why behind my podcast, it's called Market Dominance Guys. We're on episode 104, 105 or something like that. Apparently, either we're crazy or people are interested in this new role of sales, which is to dominate markets.
It doesn't seem like that's connected to making prospecting lists, right? Why would they even be connected? Who really cares? Isn't a market just like, "Oh, we're going to go and do something. I know we're going to be the leader of..." And then, a bunch of pretty words. And if we take it down one level, we say, "Well, that's for companies going to sell the companies in this vertical and we're going to sell a solution to this problem." And that's our market as those companies that want that solution.
And I want to talk about market dominance with regard to the role of sales in actually doing the most important thing we do in business, so this is really for salespeople and sales leaders. This is a bit of an attempt at a wake-up call, which is you're being called to a new mission, which is to dominate markets not just make quota. Sales tends to think of itself as, "Hey, I got my territory, whatever it is. And my job is to make this quota number happen within the territory by hook or by crook. However I do it, that's good. If I make the number, it's good. If I beat the number, it's great. If I beat it by too much, that's bad." Because then, they're going to know that by a sandbagging and they're going to raise the number by a lot, right?
So, there's a whole game that's played around making the number. And from a CEO's perspective, from my perspective, I can act like I care that my reps make the number, but what I really care about is for our defined target market. Are we on our way to becoming the dominant player? Because the dominant player gets disproportionate rewards. How disproportionate? Roughly 10 to 20x, so if you want 10 to 20 times the valuation be Salesforce, don't be Zoho. Because as Salesforce, you get this huge multiple part of what for a valuation that is the value as a multiple of your revenue or multiple profits, however you want to look at it. You get this big, big multiple because the world, the stock market, everybody looks at you and goes, "Ooh, dominant players have lots of options in the future, including dominating other markets."
And the flip is, if you're not dominating at least one market, you are on your way to being put out a business at the leisure of the dominant player in that market, because they can play games you can't play. They can reduce their price if they want to. They can be more aggressive with regard the extra services they offer. They can do all sorts of things that you can't do as the number 2, 3, 4, 5 player.
So, this guy named Geoffrey Moore, and I don't know whether everybody watching this webinar today has read Crossing the Chasm. If you have not read Crossing the Chasm, it published in 1991. So, you are a hundred percent confident that guys like Gerhard and me who were actually also in business in 1991 and in 1981... In fact, I would suspect you would think that's obsolete just like Gerhard and Chris. Those guys are obsolete. Surely a book published in 1991 is obsolete. Trust me, it's still the bible.
When it comes to taking new things to market innovations, to market, he calls them technology, but anything new to market that bothers people. You got to go read that book and understand it, because what it basically says is, you are either going to cross the chasm to being sold primarily by reference from company to company to company, to solve a broken mission, critical business process that they have. And they hold their nose against the stench of buying something that's in a new category or whatever, in order to solve this problem. But then, once it starts to prove itself in a market, then it moves. It's actually kind of about virality at the company level where things you move virally.
And so, then, the question is, what is a market? And Geoffrey Moore, the guy who wrote Crossing the Chasm, he was one of my venture capitalists at one time many, many years ago. And I had the luxury of getting to occasionally sit with him. And once we were on a plane going somewhere and I said, "Geoff, what do all of us get wrong that drives you crazy, where you just roll your eyes and go, you idiots, can you never learn?" And he said, "Oh, that's simple, Chris. You guys always think that a market is a pretty description of something. Whereas, a market is always a list and it's a list of companies such that every company on that list has this quality. If they buy, it reduces your cost and risk of selling to every other company on that list without exception." A market is naturally bounded by when that list doesn't work anymore for referencing other customers. And he says, "It tends to be an industry, but it's a sub..." Maybe a geography and industry or whatever it is.
As a result, markets tend to be smaller than we think. And venture capitalists encourage us to describe total addressable markets as fantasies. Everybody, like I could do this with ConnectAndSell. Well, everybody needs to talk to 10 times more people, so all the salespeople in the world are addressable market. But in fact, at ConnectAndSell, this is our own company. We have exactly two markets and they're two lists. One is a list of large companies with strategic challenges that they need to address by talking to a lot more people. So, they have a go-to-market problem and they're hard to find, but that's it. We make a list of them. And the other is, funded startups because they all have the same problem in B2B funded startups. Those are our two markets and we just make a list, one and the other. And that's it.
Chris Beall (11:45):
And so, we're a little ambitious. We're going to go try to dominate two markets. I know that's a little crazy, but they're lists. And so, the biggest problem with market dominance fundamentally is that, well, one, most people don't know they need to do it. They don't know what's important. They don't know what's achievable. They're just out to make a number and hope they don't get fired. And what is the average tenure of a VP of sales at the point where they're dismissed nowadays? 17 Months?
I think you told me something like that. So, that's one goal. But the company's goal nowadays is not to ship widgets. They have infinite inventory. Everybody is selling software-like products has infinite inventory. Manufacture software by doing nothing. You make them at... There are no copies, right? It's in the cloud. How do you use that ability to service without having to make another widget? How do you do that and dominate markets, so you don't have the dominant player basically decide whether your business is going to succeed or not? [crosstalk 00:12:53]
Gerhard Gschwandtner (12:55):
Sorry for interrupting. Are you saying in the fact that, if you are not achieving marketing dominance, there are actually two reasons why. One is that, your list is not long enough? And two, that your calls are not frequent enough?
Chris Beall (13:15):
I would put it another way. One is, your list is not short enough.
Gerhard Gschwandtner (13:18):
Okay.
Chris Beall (13:19):
And the reason is that, it's really easy to dominate a market of one. You make a list of one, you go sell to them. And why is that a market? Because everybody in that market is more likely to buy from you because they bought from you. And so, one company's more likely to buy from you in the future, because they bought from you in the present. A small list is easy, but maybe not important enough. So, your list should be sized thus such that when you successfully dominate that market, you'll be operating profitably as a business. That's actually how you back into the size of the list. If the list needs to be a little bigger, because your unit price is small, then you have to make it a little bigger, but it's hard to make coherent lists that are bigger. Because the bigger they are, the less likely it is to be a market, and more likely it is to be a fantasy.
This is the tricky part about lists, and this is precisely why I opened with this poll. People who say marketing makes the list, it's not bad. Marketing's job could well be to define the market, that could well be. It could also be that the senior executives of the company have thought this through. They have a strategy and they have a research team that makes the list, because maybe it takes a little bit more than just going out and asking people to come and register on the website or do whatever it is they do, maybe you have a real market. The research team could have to dig in order to find the right companies and the right people to talk to.
The folks who should never make the list, if you want to dominate markets are sales reps. Because sales reps are going to make the list for the purpose of making a number, and making a number is not a step along the way to market dominance. It's coincidental. It could help. It's better than nothing, but you're basically turning over your strategy, your corporate strategy, the reason that you have investment in the company. However, you got that investment. That reason has been turned over to sales reps and even worse to sales development reps who are often relatively young, relatively inexperienced in business, and have no background nor motivation that would cause them to make a true market list. They're more likely to make a list of people they think they can get a hold of, or that might buy. So, market dominance, it's dominate or die. That's the nature of the business.
Nowadays, we see disruption happen right, left, and center. Everybody can be disrupted. It costs nothing to make new software products. If I just started thinking, I could probably name 200 companies that were relevant five years ago and are dead now because they didn't dominate a market. It's about making something a list of companies that if one buys, the other will buy, and then finding out what they really, really need. That's product-market fit, not product fantasy fit.
So, I've answered this question, what is an addressable market? And it comes down to this. An addressable market is a market. It's a list of companies. Within that list of companies, you have to say, I want them, they're coherent. I believe each one I sell to is going to make it cheaper and lower risk to sell to all the others. Now, how do I know it's addressable? Well, I got to go talk to them. Let's face it. If I don't talk to them, I actually don't know if I could even do business with them. It's kind of an old-fashioned notion, but in order to determine whether my market is an addressable market, that is I can actually successfully sell to them, I have to have a product they want or an offering that they want.
I need to talk to them to find out if the offering's interesting. Fortunately, that is easy. Everybody thinks this is hard, but it's easy. All you have to do is talk to a reasonable subset at the market. How many? Roughly speaking, and I apologize for the math, but roughly speaking, you need to have conversations with the right kind of people at about the square root of the number of folks in the market. Say your market is a hundred companies, that's your first market you want to dominate. You need to go have 10 conversations at random with folks, and the conversations need to explore this question. First, will you take a meeting with me to learn more about this? It's very objective. If somebody will take a meeting with you to learn more about the problem that you claim you solve and how you might solve it, that's a positive indication that you might have an addressable market. It's very objective.
This isn't like, they sound like they liked me. It's not that at all. It's like, I got to have meetings. At those meetings, I need to explore with them, whether there's resonance around one of three things. That is the problem that they have, and my proposed solution to that problem does that resonate with them, either economically. Does it address a time risk or money issue that they care enough about to change their ways and actually adopt this thing?
Emotionally and generally, this is the big driver. Does it address usually a question of frustration? Almost everybody is frustrated. Business leaders are always like this, even Satya Nadella who runs Microsoft. I would bet, if at the end of each day you said, "Satya, is anything bothering you about the business?" And he go, "Oh man, I'm frustrated." That then he would behave something. What is it? It's always the same, that they don't have the time, the resources, or the support. And I can assure you as a CEO, you need the support of your people more than anything to do their job as well as they hold themselves accountable for.
Everybody's frustrated, so addressing frustration is the most common emotion that you can address. And that's important because folks won't buy without an emotional trigger, emotional spur. And then, the other thing is what we call strategy. And what do I mean by strategy? I mean, everybody's trying to go somewhere. They're trying to take their business somewhere. They're trying to get from where they are to where they want to go. That's a strategy. A strategy is a list of steps that you believe will get you closer to your goal, and each step has the fun quality that if you achieve it, it makes the next step cheaper and lower risk. That's the definition of a strategy, and I don't know if everybody knows that, but that's what a strategy is. It's a list. Isn't it amazing that a market is a list and a strategy is a list. Holy moly, we got lists everywhere. A strategy is a list of steps, and the definition of a step and a strategy is... This is why it's different from a tactic.
The strategy is, if I get here, I increase the probability and lower the cost of getting here, which increases the probability and lowers the cost of getting here and so forth and so on. And my goals of it there. Well, everybody is blocked at some point in their strategy. So, if your offering can help to unblock them, you're solving a strategy problem for them. Does your description of what you do resonate with them sufficiently that they will take a concrete next step?
Now, you're determining if your market's addressable, because you are interacting with the folks in the market enough to get that feedback. Two things could happen. One, fantastic we guessed right. Right? We guessed right. We built the product right. It's for the right purpose. It's resonating like crazy on this emotional thing or whatever it is. And the people we talk to when we have meetings with them, 30% want to go to our next concrete step of doing something. By the way, meeting again is not a next concrete step, just for all your salespeople out there, I think having another meeting and another meeting and another meeting and another meeting is making progress towards something, it's not the case. You actually have to take a step where the other party makes an investment of something more than I showed up at a meeting, so make them do something.
In our company, what we do is we make them do something. We call in an intensive test drive. They bring people to an experience that's expensive. They don't have to pay us money, but they got to pay us by bringing the people, and bringing the list, and having the executive attention, and spending two hours actually using our product, and going out, and setting meetings, and talking to a bunch of people. Well-
Gerhard Gschwandtner (21:49):
And that's a Flight School.
Chris Beall (21:51):
Well, that's a Test Drive, and then Flight School is something we would sell them afterward. Say, "Oh, you suck." Isn't it great? We did the test drive. Now, we determined that there's room for improvement. We don't say you suck, there's room for improvement, so now you could choose to avail yourself of a next concrete step, which is this flight school. And then after that, you might want to go to this next step, which is a production deployment of some kind that has an integration to your CRM or whatever. Now, it's concrete, concrete, concrete.
But the real issue that we have in markets is, even knowing this market is addressable, is this list any good? So, thing number one is the dogs love the dog food. Thing number two is, our product doesn't quite resonate, and we start to have confirmation by us and take the lack of concrete next steps as symptom of something else. It's almost always a symptom of, they're not going crazy for your stuff. And you can tune the message, and once the message resonates, then you can go back and tune the product.
By the way, that's the right order in which to do it. Don't run back and fix the product and keep showing people products. That's expensive. Just tune the message. And when the message finally resonates and they want to take a next step, then go fix the product.
Announcer (23:10):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So, when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern and innovative sales and scripting toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com.
Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
Driving revenue is what keeps a startup company in the hands of its founders, instead of in the grasp of a venture capital firm. That’s what Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship is all about: teaching founders how to sell their own product or service to get that revenue rolling in. Robert Vera, founding director of this Grand Canyon University center, is proud of the success of the founders he has been mentoring. During this second part of their two-part conversation, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank talk with Robert about the importance of his program. “It’s only by selling that we learn how our business is really working,” explains Chris. Those selling conversations with prospects give startup founders the information necessary to fine-tune their products and services so they can dominate their market. Here on Market Dominance Guys, we try to do much the same thing: For 100 episodes now, Chris, Corey, and their guests have helped our listeners finetune their businesses so they can dominate their markets. At the end of today’s episode, Chris and Corey applaud a couple of stand-out guests who have generously shared their insights on this podcast. Like Robert Vera’s program, Market Dominance Guys is also — just as the title of this episode states — “A Finishing School for Future CEOs.”
Episodes mentioned by Chris and Corey as two of their favorites:
EP7: Don‘t Make the Spiders Angry EP75: The Secret of Her Success EP76: I Heart No Shows! About Our Guest
Robert Vera is a bestselling author and the founding director of Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.
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The full transcript for this episode is here:
Announcer (00:06):
Driving revenue is what keeps a startup company in the hands of its founders instead of in the grasp of a venture capital firm. That's what Canyon Venture Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship is all about; teaching founders how to sell their own product or service to get that revenue rolling in. Robert Vera, founding Director of this Grand Canyon University Center, is proud of the success of the founders he has been mentoring. During the second part of their two-part conversation, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, talk with Robert Vera about the importance of his program.
Announcer (00:58):
"It's only by selling that we learn how our business is really working," explains Chris. Those selling conversations with prospects give startup founders the information necessary to fine-tune their products and services so they can dominate their market. Here on Market Dominance Guys, we try to do much the same thing. For over 100 episodes now, Chris, Corey, and their guests have helped our listeners fine-tune their businesses so they can dominate their markets. At the end of today's episode, Chris and Corey applaud a couple of standout guests who have generously shared their insights on this podcast. Like Robert Vera's program, Market Dominance Guys is also, just as the title of this episode states, a finishing school for future CEOs.
Chris Beall (01:47):
Just to have an organization that can, itself, scale and is based on sound principles, and not just sound principles but sound values, that can attract companies of all sizes who want to succeed and want to take care of the part where they're most likely to fail. That's amazingly heartening, right? Corey and I have each done one company at a time. I've got to help a lot of companies here at Connect and Sell, but it takes more than just pushing a button and talking to somebody. It takes a lot more. It takes having the data, it takes having the messaging, takes having the management, it takes a lot. So having all that come together is super gratifying. The other part is, as you and I have talked, and Corey always laughs at all the different jobs I've had, I was trained in education at Arizona State University. I was going to be a high school physics teacher at [Sorale 00:02:37] High School in Scottsdale, Arizona.
Chris Beall (02:39):
And until I was talked out of it by my high school physics teacher who said, "You should go start companies." And she gave me a bunch of good reasons, including a stack rank of all the students she'd ever had. A stack rank to buy entrepreneurial potential. And she showed me where I was on that list and then sent me off into the world to do what I've since been doing. My heart is still there though. At the age when folks are deciding what to do, deciding what they can do, what they love to do, and even getting a vision of the possible by doing, not just by listening, I think it makes all the difference in the world. And so, to me, it's the opportunity of a lifetime for me to get to provide something. Those $200 in an hour or whatever, that's $200 somebody didn't have to make. Thank God.
Chris Beall (03:28):
My 600 people are navigating those dollars and working for a good cause. And so it's only going to grow. This is just the start. You guys have been doing this in COVID for how long? A year and three months or something like that. [inaudible 00:03:43] story is very familiar to me, I will never forget that day. I was up at that time in the morning, too, with all of the instrumentation that I have bristling in order to watch and listen to make sure it was all going. And it was clear who was going to kick whose butt and I could go off and have a little brekkie and enjoy the day. So I think we're going to have those kinds of stories.
Chris Beall (04:05):
And by the way, Ramsey's a customer of ours also. So, it all kind of comes full circle. That's a great, great firm. I love working with those guys. They're one of my personal accounts, so I like hearing that also. Education is where it's at, but education isn't sitting there listening to people. It comes about from doing and doing in a framework that has a shot. And when I said this was a finishing school for future CEOs, that was not a turn of phrase. That was a seriously considered concept. And I just am totally excited and gratified.
Corey Frank (04:39):
What comes out of the mouth of Robert, that I furiously write down every little nugget, certainly could have easily come from you, Chris. And I think that when you guys sit down and talk about who you know and what you can do and the philosophy, there may just yet be some collaboration between what you do, certainly at Connect and Sell and the flight school, and what we can do here, certainly, at GCU and Robert's vision. Robert has been talking about a cheerleader and an unpaid board member and a coach and an advocate. And so we couldn't have asked for a better landlord, even though I don't pay him any rent.
Bob Vera (05:15):
I get complaints all the time. What happens is, every time they set up a meeting for one of their customers, it's a huge deal. So it means revenue for them and for, potentially, for their customers. So they ring a bell and they all applaud. It's been going on for awhile and there's, literally, I get calls all the time. Can you go back there and tell them to keep it quiet? I go back there and ring the bell and applaud with them. I want everybody to know what's going on over there. That’s what you need to do to be successful. Let me tell you one other thing that makes this organization, Branch 49, different from most organizations I've been affiliated with or know of. Most chief revenue officers will put a safe number up there, especially if it's a publicly-traded company, because you've got to hit your number.
Bob Vera (05:59):
There's only two ways to hit your number as a publicly-traded company. Remember, every quarter ... I worked for a publicly-traded company. I've been a senior executive there. So every quarter, what you have to do to satisfy your investors, is hit your target. It's what you have to do. The only way you can do that is to drive revenues or cut expenses. So what that means is that you're not going to get a chief revenue officer who's really going to go out on a limb to say, "We're really going to dominate our market in the next 12 months." They're not going to say that. They won't, it's too much risk for them. No company that I've ever been affiliated with will ever say ... they'll say we want to dominate our market. Great, so tell me what your total addressable market is, your TAM, and tell me how you're going to get to that in 12 months or less.
Bob Vera (06:47):
Because that's what I would consider a good definition of dominating the market. If you don't have a plan to get to your total addressable market in 12 months or less, you're not going to dominate the market, someone else will. What Corey's group does is, when they meet with a customer, they say, "This is your TAM, 10,000 people in your TAM. We can get to that in 12 months or less," that's market domination. That is. Everything else is a lie. It's a lie. You're not going to dominate your market. You're not. You're not. You think you are, and you've told everybody that you are, but you're not going to. How are you going to dominate your market if you can't get to everybody? Someone else will get to them.
Bob Vera (07:29):
But these are the things that I think are different. So I love hearing that bell ring every day. I mean, I love hearing that bell ring because that's what people need to understand. This is success, Chris, what you said is, I really appreciate this, we have a lot of founders and they'll ask me, "We're in our seed round," which means your very early round. How much should I give up? And I can do the math for you, but I'll say, "Look, if you give up more than 20% of your seed round, you're going to have troubles going forward." And right behind that sentence, I say, "In addition to that, if you're going in after your seed round for an A route and you have not driven revenues, guess what. You're going to be working for somebody else soon," because that's how these things work, right?
Bob Vera (08:17):
So in order to justify your valuation, you need to drive revenues. And in order to give up less of your company, you need to drive revenues. If you don't have a plan for that, guess what, the VC does. They do have a plan for that, right? They're going to give you enough, they're going to dilute you to the point where you were working for them. And at some point, when you're doing 18 hour days, you haven't been your wife and kids, they're missing you, and then someone else owns your company. Tell you what, there's a way around that. That's to drive revenues. Find that target market fit and the product-market fit and drive revenues. And then you are in control. You are in control.
Bob Vera (09:30):
Most people, most entrepreneurs, they're afraid of that. Our entrepreneurs are not afraid of that. They love that. They want to get after it, they want to drive revenues, and they use Corey's group to do that and it's working.
Susan Finch (09:42):
I'm going to ask you real quick, I know you have to scoot so I'm going to fit this in because I know you have another meeting behind this, what challenge would you want to give to companies? Because my feeling is the most successful CEOs out there, the most successful leaders, have that level of mentorship, that route of teaching ... And I'm not saying just successful because of all the money they've raised and their lifestyle things, but successful through and through. I see that in both of you guys. I see it in all three of you, now that I've met you, Robert. And my three favorite bosses I've ever had had that too, where everybody wanted to work with them. Wanted to just stay and do well for them. What would you advise companies that need to challenge themselves or up their game?
Chris Beall (10:31):
Well, from my standpoint it's simple. It's lead from the front in sales. If you're a CEO and you're not out there selling, there's something seriously wrong with you. And I don't care if you have a sales background or don't, you probably will do better if you don't, because frankly, very early market sales work better without a sales background. But you need mentorship, you need help, and you need to talk to a ton of people. And get good at that and stay there. So I mentioned Scott Webb earlier ... There was a guy, a huge company. Leads from the front, highest conversion, highest number of meetings, highest everything, and advances the state of the art every single day. And holds the title of Chief Growth Officer of a multi-billion dollar company. You got to lead from the front and sitting back there and looking at spreadsheets and barking about stuff just doesn't get it done.
Chris Beall (11:19):
There's two reasons, one is to inspire folks to come with you. The other is, frankly, it's only by selling that we learn how our businesses really work and what's really going on. Whether what we're doing is worth doing or not. And when we're selling, we actually get that feedback in a way that has got enough data and enough fidelity that we have a shot at understanding the company that we're trying to create. Pretending you've created a company before the Velveteen Rabbit theory pops in and owns it ... I have the Velveteen Rabbit theory of business, I don't know who has kids whose read that book, but you know the stuffed rabbit? It becomes real when somebody loves it. Well, you're not a real company until your customers love you so much that they insist that you stay in business. And that is how you're real. Everything else is just prelude to that. So you've got to get to that point and you've got to lead from the front to get there.
Susan Finch (12:13):
Oh, that was beautifully said. Talk about bringing tears to your eyes, that brings it to mind because that's how I feel with you guys towards us.
Chris Beall (12:22):
Oh yeah, we're not going to let you go out of business. I apologize, I've got to jump. I got something to sell.
Susan Finch (12:28):
No, you go do it. Talk to you soon.
Chris Beall (12:29):
All right. Robert, so good to meet you.
Bob Vera (12:29):
Good to meet you, Chris. Look forward to meeting you here.
Susan Finch (12:30):
All right.
Corey Frank (12:36):
Thank you, Susan. This is great. I'm glad we got ... Robert, thank you so much for joining us today. Long overdue. You can see, you and Chris are brothers from another mother. I mean, you speak to some language, you have the same level of passion, the same level of intolerance for fools. And that's born out of a love that you have, because you've seen too many entrepreneurs give up the keys to their brainchild for pennies on the dollar, without the proper guidance. And I think that stem from, certainly all of us, having our first startup companies breaking our heart because we signed on the dotted line before we had some wise old sages who slapped our hand away at the right moment. So thank you.
Susan Finch (13:22):
This has been wonderful. Audience, if you want to learn more about what they are doing at GCU, more about Youngblood Works, Branch 49, Grand Canyon University, everything happening. Corey, tell us how to find everybody.
Corey Frank (13:37):
We're at branch49.com and Robert, if I'm an up and coming company, technology company, entrepreneurial organization, how do I potentially apply to be part of the Grand Canyon University Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship?
Bob Vera (13:54):
Yeah. Great question. So go to GCUworks, all one word, GCUworks.com. That's G-C-U works dot com. You can learn more about the companies here, there's an application for consideration, but GCUworks.com. That's where you can find more information about us.
Susan Finch (14:15):
Terrific. Now I know GCU also has ... You can attend from afar? Do you need to be on campus to do this?
Bob Vera (14:24):
No, so we have companies that are housed with us, but they're in Budapest, Hungary. We have companies in London or England. So we have companies that just want access to our GCU students. They pay them via Venmo, so we have companies from across the globe. We had a company move in, in fact, they work with Corey. The company is [inaudible 00:14:47], they're from Dubai. So companies from across the globe have sought us out. I have a meeting here in a few minutes with one from UK, another one from UK, so across the globe. Students can work remotely.
Bob Vera (15:01):
So we're flexible on how we do this. We just look for great companies. They want access to our GCU students and want the mentorship and have the desire to grow. And I think grow, not just by ... And I see a lot of this, in deference to all those folks, but I see a lot of press releases on money raised. I'd rather see press releases on sales. And if you're in need of that, I think if you believe in that philosophy, I think this is a perfect fit for you. If you want to take your destiny in your own hands, you come here with us.
Susan Finch (15:34):
I love how you just changed that. You are so right. Way too much about money you are able to acquire, borrow, be beholding to somebody else for. Sales are all yours, sales belong to the company, that is something you own.
Corey Frank (15:50):
Well, thank you, Susan, for the opportunity to turn tables here. This is great and we've got to do it again. And we've got to have Funnel Media Group. Maybe we can switch it and we can actually interview you one of these days and learn all about the vision that you have, especially going into the next coming year. The days of Chris eating his oatmeal, bumping into the piano, my dog barking in the background.
Chris Beall (16:20):
I got a glass of wine, does that count?
Corey Frank (16:22):
We're just having conversations and you're like, wait a minute. Okay, guys. It took us a while, took us a couple of episodes.
Susan Finch (16:29): Corey and Chris, we have just celebrated 100 episodes of Market Dominance Guys and people all have their favorite episodes, I know our team does, and you guys do, and then listeners do. But I don't think we've ever shared that. So I want to know, first from Corey, what has been one of your favorite episodes that we have done?
Corey Frank (16:50):
It's got to be the themes that we dive into when I can learn about Chris's prior professions. Which is selling bug spray door to door. Kill spiders ... Actually, sorry, what was the exact phrase, Chris? You don't kill spiders, you just piss them off.
Susan Finch (17:10):
Don't make the spiders angry.
Corey Frank (17:12):
Don't make the spiders angry. Those were some of the golden ... As I've mentioned many times to Chris, Susan, I have just as many pieces of material and hijacked risks from Chris as probably any of our listeners. So this is a nefarious way for me to get a front-row seat. But yeah, probably have to be the episode with all of Chris's professions, we seem to learn a new one every other episode, but it'd have to be when he sold the bug spray and the [inaudible 00:17:43] brushes door to door.
Susan Finch (17:45):
I like it. All right, Chris, so tell us what your favorite episode or episodes have been.
Chris Beall (17:50):
Well, it's interesting. For me, there's two flavors. One is when we were just kids, Corey and I, and we were just doing this together. And it's actually an episode before we were doing a podcast. We didn't know we were doing a podcast, so this all started with Corey saying, "Hey, we need to suck a book out of you somehow." And so there I was in this house in Reno, this rental house, it's a big house, a big room with wooden floors and no furniture, echoing like crazy. And we're just gathering material. And I don't know which one it is, but it was very early, when Corey just got me going on something. It was one of my favorite episodes because it convinced me that my mother was right, I really can go on and on and on.
Corey Frank (18:38):
That's right.
Chris Beall (18:40):
I don't remember which one it is though, I'm not very good at that. Another one that really delighted me was ambushing Cheryl Turner and getting her to come on an episode because she didn't want to do it. And it was one of those things that, I was just talking with her and I said, "So Cheryl, I want to just have you jump on and be a guest on Market Dominance Guys." And she says, "Oh, I don't want to do that. I don't do stuff like that," blah, blah, blah. And I said, "Well, that's okay because it's only 10 minutes from now. So there's no time for you to freak out."
Chris Beall (19:11):
And it was literally 10 minutes away and there she was, ready to go, and she was dynamite. She was just absolutely dynamite. So for a person who didn't want to be on, wanted nothing to do with it, I'm a very private person, I'm shy. To being one of our best guests ever. And I think that, Secrets of Her Success, is actually the most practical episode we ever did that contains, I think the fourth breakthrough, which is the insistence play as a setup to iHeart no-shows. And I'm still trying to teach it to people in our own company. Apparently, it's hard to learn.
Corey Frank (19:50):
That insisted mindset.
Chris Beall (19:53):
Which we learned from Scott Webb, over at Hub International, but Cheryl picked it up just like that. And so, anyway, it was fun to have her on, all freaked out and ready to go.
Susan Finch (20:05):
Thank you so much, I would love to. Everybody ...
Chris Beall (20:07):
Thanks guys.
Corey Frank (20:09):
Awesome.
One of the major challenges of getting a startup up and running is doing a lot of things you don't know how to do. How are you going to learn to do them? Enter Robert Vera, founding director of Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Grand Canyon University, and today’s guest on Market Dominance Guys. Mentoring a portfolio of 32 startup companies that are beyond the ideation stage, the Center's goal is to accelerate the growth of each company by coaching them, at no cost, in selling their product and generating cash flow. The program’s one caveat? Each company must hire Grand Canyon University students and give them professional sales experience prior to graduation. Our own Market Dominance Guy, Corey Frank, helps to provide that successful selling experience with his company, Branch 49, a sales acceleration software and service that uses AI to score leads, dramatically increasing conversations-to-meeting rates. Intrigued? Find out more about how to grow your startup on today's Market Dominance Guys' episode, "Taking a Leaf Out of Branch 49' book."
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About Our Guest Robert Vera is a bestselling author and the founding director of Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.
The full transcript for this episode is here:
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists, and the entrepreneurs, who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
One of the major challenges of getting a startup up and running is doing a lot of things you don't know how to do. How are you going to learn to do them? Enter Robert Vera, Founding Director of Canyon Venture Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Grand Canyon University, and today's guest on Market Dominance Guys. Mentoring a portfolio of 32 startup companies that are beyond the ideation stage, the center's goal is to accelerate the growth of each company by coaching them, at no cost, in selling their product and generating cash flow. The program's one caveat; each company must hire Grand Canyon University students and give them professional sales experience, prior to graduation. Our own Market Dominance Guy, Corey Frank, helps to provide that successful selling experience with his company, Branch 49, a sales acceleration software and service that uses AI to score leads, dramatically increasing conversations to meeting rates. Intrigued? Find out more about how to grow your startup on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, taking a leaf out of Branch 49's book.
Susan Finch (01:31):
Well, that brings us to our topic today, and I know we're waiting for a very special guest to join us. But, flipping the format of the Market Dominance Guys, Corey, usually you're the one who's prodding, and commenting, drawing it out of our guests. Usually it's Chris bantering with the guests, and you're bringing it out of them. To make sure that we get to all their goodness. Well, it's your turn today. And you have struck me, since you started talking about Youngblood Works at Grand Canyon University, I have been intrigued, impressed, and touched by the work that's happening there. And when Chris and I were having lunch the other day, we said, we have to do this. Corey has to be in the seat. It's Corey's turn. And we want to hear all about what got you started, how difficult it was. And at the end of this episode, I would like a call to action, to challenge other businesses, to step up in the mentoring, step up in, take a little bit of a risk. To have an effect, such a positive effect on so many, as you guys have.
Corey Frank (02:45):
Yeah, I think that has its roots. Certainly, Chris, I think you can add color to this. And I think we did an episode early on, where we talked about if digital is your only strategy, that's not necessarily a sound strategy. And, Chris, if you recall right, we went into the science of just simply delivering information, right? So that was really the brainchild of this, right Chris? As much as I've been poking my stubby figure in Chris's chest for years, trying to get as many nuggets of information to steal from his brain as possible, he's certainly been challenging me, and all the businesses that I've done and the successful exits that I've had, to go back to [inaudible 00:03:29] at its core. It's that we, both of us, I think all three of us, so you included Susan, right? We like to mentor. And we like to guide our profession, and leave a mark on our profession, that maybe folks don't understand the craft as well as they should.
Corey Frank (03:44):
The craft of selling, the craft of cold calling. And especially as a startup, we're here on campus at GCU and the incubator and the innovation center. And we have 29 different organizations, that are at various stages of funding here. And all of them have one thing in common. They all want to talk with more prospects at the top of their funnel. And all of them struggle with, how do I do that? I just received seed funding. I just received A-round funding. I just received friends and family funding, and now I've got to put it to work. I think that was episode one, chapter one, verse one, I think Chris, we talked about, right? Getting that funding.
Corey Frank (04:25):
And so all the things that we've talked about, on Market Dominance, it's funny, because it's paralleled a lot of the experiences that we see. So this isn't in a vacuum, this advice and this guidance that Chris provides. We actually see it every day in the companies that we guide, as the entrepreneur in residence here, to help take these companies at least on the right path to think about market dominance. Which unfortunately not a lot of them really think about their foray into a business world as a Zero-sum game, which it should be. So Chris, you certainly see a lot of these startups and they ask you for unsolicited advice. Many of our folks that end up being guests on our show, seek you out still as an in-demand sage, Muhammad at the top of the mountain, for all business advice of all kinds. So I know of what I speak. You see that traditionally, even outside of here in Phoenix, in the companies we deal with, correct?
Chris Beall (05:20):
Yeah. I mean, a lot of people want to know what to do when they get started, because getting started is the hardest part of doing anything. And it's pretty easy to fool yourself into thinking that you're doing good stuff. When what you're really doing is familiar stuff. And the unfamiliar stuff is what is tough. And then I was just talking with Helen about this yesterday, or the day before when we were driving back from Oregon, and pointing out in that conversation to her that there's only one good state to be stuck in from which you can make great progress, and it's not flow. It's stuck. People seek flow, but flow means you're repeating what you already know how to do. So when you're in flow, oddly enough, you're never making progress. You may be advancing. You may be doing more, but you're doing what you already know how to do.
Chris Beall (06:09):
And the nature of startups is you have to do a lot of things you don't know how to do. And so how are you going to learn to do them, or even what they are? It's through conversations with folks. And in particular, the big one is, but what should we be doing? What problems should we be solving? I had a conversation today with a young entrepreneur, who has actually been on the show. I won't mention who it is, because it's a kind of a quiet relationship right now with regard to his entrepreneurship. But we were talking about the industry that he's interested in working together with, with some folks on. And it was clear that one of the deep psychological dynamics that's likely to be in play in that industry, which is a B2C industry, is actually a B2B dynamic. And there's a reason that it's a B2B dynamic.
Chris Beall (06:58):
And so we talked about that. And that conversation is going to perhaps lead him to have conversations with folks in that market, in this case, consumers, to investigate this B2B psychology that may be in play there. But without those conversations, what is he going to do? Take a guess? Build a product? Hope for the best? That's a pretty bad way to go, to build things, and then get money, and run around and try to sell them, and deploy them, in order to find out whether you're basically on a track that could lead somewhere.
Chris Beall (07:33):
And something we've talked about a little bit, but haven't really, I think extolled the virtues of enough, which is the wonders of being stuck. Corey says that he's playing an entrepreneur in residence role, and advising companies. Well, when somebody seeks your advice, if they do it correctly, it's because they're stuck. Not because they're in flow, and not because they're waiting. And so the job of the unsticker is often to say, here's a way to get unstuck. We've just had this conversation. We framed up kind of the question around which you're stuck. Now you need information, guess where you're going to get it? Well, you can get it at 20,000 bits a second talking to somebody, or you can get it at 5,000 bits an email, and wonder whether you're getting the truth.
Corey Frank (08:19):
Right, right.
Susan Finch (08:20):
No. I'm wondering Corey with the businesses that you are witnessing at GCU, are they primarily B2B? Or is it a mix? And how are you seeing their paths? Are they similar paths that they're taking to achieve what you guys are talking about?
Corey Frank (08:37):
Yeah, they're all B2B. And Robert Vera, who runs the Center of Innovation Excellence here at Grand Canyon University, he's responsible for curating, recruiting, and helping these organizations on their glide path to success. And so they're all predominantly cybersecurity, SAS. There's some med-tech, ed-tech, but all high growth potential, all deep, juicy markets that we have on here. And all of them collectively, we know that most businesses that are with the stats are at 80 plus percent of businesses fail because of low revenue, and their inability to build a sustainable sales team, or sustainable systems. And these type of businesses, certainly Chris you've seen it all the time. We've talked about it on the show. Is that two thirds of these businesses waste their marketing and sales budget targeting the wrong folks, in the wrong channels, in hiring the wrong people.
Corey Frank (09:39):
And what's oftentimes the remedy for that, is to raise more money. And good is the enemy of great, as we saw this. Is that these organizations, they kind of venture out so quickly, without real product-market fit. And they want to hire at scale, salespeople at scale. They want to hire their software engineers at scale. They want to max out their SEO and SEM budget. And oftentimes that just leads to the inevitable, and enviable position as well, of pivot, correct Chris? And we have our future title for our next book that is correlated with that, but the dreaded pivot.
Chris Beall (10:26):
Yes, yes, yes. I still actually, perhaps my favorite phrase that's come out of Market Dominance Guys is when we considered, what if Jesus had been venture financed? And then we'd be going pivot, Jesus, pivot. Your message is not being taken up by the market fast enough.
Corey Frank (10:46):
That's right. So unless you're the son of man himself, so God himself, pivoting is not necessarily something that you can play with.
Susan Finch (11:37):
Welcome Robert.
Corey Frank (11:40):
Fantastic. Fantastic.
Susan Finch (11:41):
Thank you for joining us on such short notice.
Robert Vera (11:44):
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Susan Finch (11:45):
Terrific. Corey, I'm going to let you go ahead and introduce our special guest today on Market Dominance Guys.
Corey Frank (11:51):
Absolutely. My pleasure. So Robert Vera, please meet the indomitable Chris Beal and Susan Finch. Chris, of course, is my sensei, and sage, and mentor, and all-around good buddy, CEO of ConnectAndSell. And Susan Finch, I can say the same, but instead of ConnectAndSell replace Funnel Media Group as well. She's CEO of Funnel Media Group, which is one of the fastest-growing podcast production organizations in the U.S. And Susan has the unenviable job of making folks like Chris and me sound intelligible. And it's an editing malaise and [inaudible 00:12:31], for sure. So Robert is the Director of the Grand Canyon University Center for Excellence in business excellence here, in entrepreneurship. And he's responsible for curating, we were just talking about you, Robert behind your back, about the 29, is that how many companies you have here on campus right now that you help curate, and foster, and growth, and elbow at certain points?
Robert Vera (12:54):
We've got 32 right now.
Corey Frank (12:56):
32 right now. And before that, Robert worked in Senator Ted Kennedy's office. Back in the day, he's been a senior executive at Merrill Lynch. He's been an entrepreneur, a New York Times bestselling author, multiple times. He does the Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim, you'll appreciate this, Chris, in the Grand Canyon. I don't know how many times, 3, 4, 5 dozen times namely with Navy seals, and a lot of veterans, and he does that. So though servant leadership is near and dear to his heart, and this University certainly is one of the fastest-growing in the United States. Now Robert is at the lone star here for helping curate the right type of conscious capitalism, competent capitalism, that graduating folks to what Chris, Robert, I stole the phrase from him, and we talked to him about a finishing school for future CEOs. And Robert has really appreciated that term ever since. So Robert, please meet the good friends, Chris and Susan, and welcome to the Market Dominance Guys.
Robert Vera (13:53):
Great to be here, guys. Nice to meet you both.
Corey Frank (13:56):
Super excited.
Chris Beall (13:58):
Well, we're getting to turn the tables today.
Susan Finch (14:00):
Yes. We're here to hear some stories and hear some success stories. What it used to be like, what happened, and what it's like today stories, for what you have started at Grand Canyon University, what you are all a part of. And I know that stories are, certain companies will stick, out certain individuals. I would love to hear how this has impacted you. And if you had anybody that comes to mind that you would like to tell us about.
Robert Vera (14:29):
Yeah. So I'd like to talk a little bit about why we're different. And I think Corey Frank and his group, their Branch 49 makes us different. So here's why. Entrepreneurs, and we have 32 of them now, and we are Canyon Ventures Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship. We bring companies in here, they're beyond the ideation stage. So they're going to grow. And we're an accelerator. I think there's a distinction between facilities like ours that are incubators, and they get their help from Techstars and Y Combinator and the like, and then these are accelerators. You're beyond the ideation stage. You've defined what your product-market fit is about. And you're looking to grow your organization. We are that organization. We call it an accelerator. The main requirement that we have here is we give you no cost rent, utilities. Everything is, you're on a scholarship here. With the proviso that you hire our GCU students and give them professional experience and professional network, prior to graduation.
Robert Vera (15:26):
So we'd like to say that we don't want our GCU students to fight fair. We want to give them an unfair advantage in the marketplace. So they go out there. They have years of professional experience, right? From some of these companies. And they're either get a job with one of the companies that hired them here, or they use that to leverage, to get a more than entry-level job in the real world. So one of the things that makes us different, and I appreciate I was an entrepreneur, so I appreciate entrepreneurs. But one of the things that makes us different is entrepreneurs, they want to build things. And I love that. You're building something, but you can't build it in the vacuum. At some point no one's getting out of here until you sell something. So we need entrepreneurs to sell something. So the first day I came in here and we set up. And I had a notion that, hey, we need to figure out.
Robert Vera (16:15):
People are like, well, is there going to be legal, help, accounting help, marketing help? No, no. You're going to sell something. You're going to figure out what your product-market fit is. And you're going to sell something. All that other stuff is not top-line stuff. What every startup needs to understand, every startup, is that we're going to focus on cash flow. We can focus on net profit and return on investment later. Those two will come when you focus on cash flow. In order to do that, we're going to have to sell something, right? Because you can't hire our students unless you have one of two things. Equity, which is going to run out pretty quick, and/or revenues, which we're going to figure that out. So Branch 49 is what makes us unique and different. Here's what they do. They're a revenue generation consulting firm. And what that means, and I'll tell you a quick story. Branch 49 started here May of 2020. And I knew we needed it.
Corey Frank (17:17):
Youngblood Works is the parent organization of Branch 49, is the DBA, what we go to market as. So just to kind of clarify, we've spoken about Youngblood Works. That's really Branch 49.
Robert Vera (17:29):
Thanks for clearing up. So, I knew we needed it. And I didn't know how it was going to work out. But they morphed into a revenue generation consulting firm. It was July of 2020. COVID is still in full swing. We brought people back. We brought a few companies back here. One of them was the Branch 49 team. Now at that point, there's only three of them, correct me if I'm wrong. But I think there may be 20 of them now. And they had an opportunity. They said we have an opportunity to get a $100,000 a month contract with a company called the Zucker. And one of the guys that works there, young kid just graduated. Literally all three of the kids that work there just graduated from GCU. His name is Micah [inaudible 00:18:07]. And Micah, great kid, his mom is Air Force. She flew as flight surgeon on Air Force One.
Robert Vera (18:12):
Micah comes to me, it's July 15th, 2020. We're in Arizona. He says, can I park? He lives in his RV, by the way. Can I park my RV out in front of the building? We got an early morning start. We're going to East Coast time. So we got to be up and rolling. So I asked Micah, he says he has to park out at 05:00 in front of the building. I don't ask him why, until later. Finally, he tells me we have an opportunity to compete against an inside sales organization, Zucker's own sales organization, an outside sales organization from Pakistan, and our GCU recent college graduates, and a newly started up company to drive revenues, to help companies drive revenues. So he says, if we win, we get a $100,000 a month contract to continue the effort. So I thought, that's probably a good reason to park out front.
Robert Vera (19:02):
So they came in the next day. I drive up, it's 04:30 in the morning. And now it's July in Arizona. We compete with hell for the hottest temperatures on the globe, right? So it's probably 115 degrees out. It's in a black parking lot. It's well over 110, I'm sure. And they're all outside the RV. And I pull up, I mean, everything's outside the RV. I pull up and ask what's going on. The AC broke. So they didn't sleep all night. Now it's five o'clock well, hey, we might as well just get after it. I let them in. They come in the building, they coffee up and start calling. I go to work, which is across the hall from them. And I poked my head out about 11:30 ish, closer to 12 o'clock on that day. Which is now, you're looking at end of day, East Coast time.
Robert Vera (19:49):
And I said, how's it going? Mike says, well, the other two teams combined have already set up seven meetings. I say, okay. And how are you guys doing? "33". That's when I knew we had something special, that's when I knew there was something different about what we were doing, and how we were doing it. And that's when I knew that every company in this place needs to consider setting up just like Branch 49 is set up, or hiring Branch 49.
Robert Vera (20:23):
Here's why. Every startup, in order to justify your revenues, you're going to need to have proof that you can sell. In fact, it's easier to justify your valuation when you're in revenues. So you'll need to do that. In order to define, if you have a product-market fit, you have to get to customers. You have to do that. As far as I know, and there's these innovation centers and universities across the world now. As far as I know, we are the only organization of its kind, either an incubator and accelerator innovation center, that has an in-house revenue generation consulting firm that can do this for you.
Robert Vera (21:03):
When I ask companies great, we'd love to help. Can I see your three selling documents? They look at me like, what do you mean? Do you have a copywritten screenplay to connect with your target market fit? Do you know the persona you're calling, so they can call them? Do you have a consistent pitch deck? There's less than 10 minutes. Let me tell you what. If it's more than 10 minutes, you don't know what your company does. If you can't communicate that value to your target audience in 10 minutes or less, you don't know what your company does.
Robert Vera (21:34):
And then do you have a consistent follow-up? Email, call? Do you have a consistent, follow-up? Do you have a message? How do you measure if somebody is successful? If you don't have three consistent documents to do that, you can't. You don't know if it's performance, you don't. And then do you know how to perform that? Do you know how to deliver that? You don't know how to do that. You need to talk to Branch 49. You need to talk to the team over there. You need to create your three selling documents. You need to have the tools to do it. I brought someone by the other day. Kavin, one of the team members over there, a young kid, GCU graduate. I said to Kavin, he's been working for about three hours. Kavin, how many phone calls have you done already? He had done over 200, in three hours. Most people don't get that done in a week. It's the system that Branch 49 uses to actually deliver those.
Robert Vera (22:23):
Now, here's the difference. The data makes the difference. A lot of people use Zoom to get their data. What Branch 49 has been able to create, is relevant and actionable data. What that means is conversion rates are so much higher from their calls than anybody else. It's not because of experience. We have a person, Ashley, she has no experience whatsoever. She was a nursing major, comes from GCU. Comes here, looking for work. She gets on the phone, her conversion rate, because of the screenplay we give her, because of the data she's using to call, is 10%. She has a conversion rate, almost 11%. Anthony, he's one of the seasoned reps over there. His conversion rate is 20% or close to it, 19.9%. The reason why their conversion rates are higher is because of the data. It's not just Zoom data, it's filtered. And then it's called before to see, is this person going to pick up? The persona is right.
Robert Vera (23:31):
So I like to think that we have got something, one of a kind here. We're able to consult with startup companies, and other growing companies. Most of Corey's companies that he has, are not startup companies, they're billion-dollar companies or billion-dollar-plus companies in the SAS industry and cybersecurity. So, we're able to consult with them, to deliver to them their three selling documents. Give them the tools, the resources, and most importantly, the data that they need to be relevant and actual data. Let me speak to that just a little bit more. Relevant means that the persona who's picking up that phone, we know that person will pick up. How do we know that? The Branch 49 team has a methodology they use to screen the data. They know this person is one that will pick up the phone call.
Are you providing your reps with excellent sales training only to find that most of them drift slowly back to their old behavior? In today’s podcast, Gerry Hill, Regional VP/EMEA of ConnectAndSell, and Shane Mahi, Founder and CEO of SalesDRIIVN, join our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, to discuss the solution to sales rep drift. Using the analogy of machinery that drifts out of tolerance and requires maintenance for necessary adjustments, the guys discuss the necessity and effectiveness of sales coaching in real-time. The solution’s success hinges on catching and correcting those little (or big) errors in message, tone, and pacing before your reps run through your lists and have nothing to show for it. Vigilance and just-in-time coaching: All that and more on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Do You Catch Their Drift?”
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About Our Guests
Shane Mahi is Founder and CEO of SalesDRIIVN, a service provided by some of the sharpest minds in sales, generating quality meetings for its customers.
Gerry Hill holds the position of Regional Vice President/EMEA of ConnectAndSell, a Silicon Valley–based sales acceleration company, which provides technology that gets salespeople 10x more live conversations with decision-makers.
Related to this episode:
All Churn is Not Created Equal Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey (on Amazon)
What’s the most efficient, most secure method of growing your company? Shane Mahi, Founder and CEO of SalesDRIIVN, and Gerry Hill, EMEA Regional Vice President of ConnectAndSell, explore this question with Chris Beall in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast. “Overhead is like a racehorse,” Chris says. “It eats while we sleep.” He offers the following advice to Shane and to our loyal listeners: Forget taking money from VCs. Instead, work on shortening your pitch-to-value cycle time and build your business that way. “The faster your company can cycle and produce value,” he explains, “the lower your risk of losing your business.” Gerry chimes in with his own great advice: “Be sure to take a scientific approach to the experiment, not an emotional approach.” And, as always, Chris reminds those pursuing success in business that “Market dominance is a risk-reduction program: in order to reduce the risk of losing your company, you need to dominate one market. Then go dominate another.” That’s the way we roll on Market Dominance Guys every day: lots of valuable advice and helpful reminders. Listen in for more of it on today’s episode, “Overhead Is Like a Racehorse.”
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About Our Guests
Shane Mahi is Founder and CEO of SalesDRIIVN, a service provided by some of the sharpest minds in sales, generating quality meetings for its customers.
Gerry Hill holds the position of Regional Vice President/EMEA of ConnectAndSell, a Silicon Valley–based sales acceleration company, which provides technology that gets salespeople 10x more live conversations with decision-makers.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Shane Mahi (01:36):
So how does a new business owner protect themselves when they are seeking funding? Because with all the advice in the world, some people will just still go for it. What can a business owner do to protect themselves from getting into bed with the wrong person?
Chris Beall (02:01):
Wow, that's a tough question. I'll take a shot at it. Well, I'm going to go with an analogy. Some people who've watched this program know that there was a time when I was working with somebody as an advisor to his company as a friend, and he came into some money and decided to hire some salespeople, a salesperson to take his product to market. And I told him, "I'll fire you. I won't advise you anymore if you do that." And he asked me, "Why?" And I said, "Because we're doing an experiment now with a great deal of money to determine the answer to this question, 'Are you great at hiring salespeople?' And the answer is no, we know you're not, you've never done it before."
Chris Beall (02:40):
So what are the odds, your first go, one of the hardest things in business, which is to hire a salesperson, but an unattractive company that you do no business with anybody, you're just getting started, what are the odds that you're going to hire the great salesperson that you need to take a product nobody knows about to market with the chief operating officers and similar of some of the biggest companies in the world? It's like zero, right? So I told him, "I'm not going to waste my time." And he said, "Well, what's your alternative advice?" I said, "You mean, after you fire the salesperson?"
Chris Beall (03:13):
And he said, "Well..." And I said, "Okay, let's assume that you do the right thing and that you let this person go so that they can go do something useful with their life. You need to cold-call these chief operating officers and talk to them, somehow, get a meeting with them and talk to them about what their needs are, what they see in their own organization that you can help with, with your idea of a product, and that's it. And if you can get the flow rate of those conversations up high enough, then you'll be fine. Your money won't run out, or you'll find out your idea is bad and you'll find out fairly quickly it's bad. And then you'll save yourself a bunch of grief and you can do something else."
Chris Beall (03:54):
And he said, "Huh." And I said, "So it's very similar when you think your problem is I got to, I got to raise some money. You're just like this guy thinking his problem was, I got to hire a salesperson. The odds of you choosing a financial partner as a naive and getting the right financial partner, who's going to be there with you with your interest in mind rather than theirs, bringing something beyond money to the party because money is, Gerry just said, "Cash is trash." The world's awash in money. It's of no value to you. You can get it from anywhere. So what are the odds of you doing a great job of... I think of this way, you're not seeking investment, you're hiring a financial partner. You've never done it before. I guarantee you will fail. However, the price of your failure will be your company. And so given that you're crazy, just crazy to take investment, unless you're an expert investment taker, that is your great at buying from out there somewhere, a great financial partner and selling them for good reasons, not bad on why they should partner with you.
Chris Beall (05:04):
It can be done. I am at the edge of sometimes being able to do it, but I regret quite frankly, every dollar I've ever raised. And I can go back and look at that and the numbers are big. It's like $180 million. It would have been better in every one of those situations to bootstrap and it would have been better because it would have slowed us down enough that we would have had to learn what the real problem was we were solving all the way to the bottom. And that's the hard part of business. It's easy to come up with a solution. It's hard to come up with a solution, right? I mean, anybody can come up with a solution and a slide deck. There's nothing to it. Anybody can name a big tan, by the way, if you name a big tan, you're dead already.
Chris Beall (05:48):
No small company can ever address a big tan. That's just a stupid idea. That's just a crazy idea. Yeah. We're going to take over the world. Well, who cares, right? I mean, it doesn't make any difference. It's like I have a mountaineering analogy. You can stand there and look at the summit all day long. It doesn't get you any closer, right? I'm looking at ever... Oh, what a tall mountain. It's 29,028 feet and it's all covered with ice and the ice fall looks really dangerous. Well, it is, but it's great. That didn't help you, sorry. Yeah.
Shane Mahi (06:22):
It made you tired looking. Made your neck tired.
Chris Beall (06:27):
So I'm with you Gerry and that's kind of the whole purpose of this podcast is to let people know. And it's the purpose of connecting. So why we do the company is to let people know there's a... You actually have the key resource, which is your voice attached to your willingness to learn associated with a hypothesis of how you can help. And that's it. That's your core. That's what you're bringing together. If you take your voice out and you just left with the hypothesis, that's not so great. So the hypothesis ain't going to dominate any markets. But the VCs will pay you for it because they're looking to get rid of you anyway, right? They're looking at-
Shane Mahi (07:16):
I never call. I never understood that line. Why? All right. So what if you have a good CEO and the VC still wants them out, then what does a company do?
Chris Beall (07:28):
You end up with a fight and it's not good. I've been through them. I know what it looks like. Anybody ever wants to give me a call. I might tell them about one of them, all depending on how the court records are sealed. But let's face it, once you take money, if you end up in conflict with the money that conflict's going to be resolved relatively violently, I'll say through corporate violence or you're going to lose. You will probably lose most of the time. And the reason is they're experts. They're professionals. They're not professionals on running a business, they're professionals at winning that fight. So you don't want to be in that fight. You don't want that. That's what that big document's all about. That's the rigging of the fight. [crosstalk 00:08:13].
Shane Mahi (08:13):
Well, I just don't... I do not understand. So maybe, I'm too simple-minded or I don't know how this comes across, but I just think I would never give up that much control then. Does that not protect you? If you just say, "I'm not going to give up that much control, I've heard of ultimate vetos in contracts where they can't override the CEO's decision." Does none of that play into factor in 2000s?
Gerry Hill (08:41):
No, not really. Because there aren't enough CEOs are dynamic enough to actually be the intellectual property of the company. I can think of about four at the top of my hands with that shit or maybe two kind of works right now in popular culture. No one's getting rid of Elon Musk. Nobody's getting rid of Jeff Bezos. Nobody's getting rid of guys over at Palantir. They are the intellectual property of the business. They're the reason that the investment is made. That's why they get to hold onto category a shares and do all that other cool corporate stuff that they get to do.
Shane Mahi (09:10):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerry Hill (09:12):
That's to know that if they just hold on really tight... Sorry, they just hold on tight in Elon Musk's coattails, they'll be fine, but there's nobody corporate rating Tesla because nobody can do Tesla other than Elon Musk. So if I'm an investor there, that's fine. But to be honest, Shane, you, me, Chris, every one of us from this call whilst we own sparkling in our own brilliance every now and then we are not the intellectual property that can carry a company forward for long enough, right? Anybody could lose that fight because we're not professionally equipped, like Chris says, to deal with the ability to win that fight. I mean the classic in social culture story is I bought a server on Facebook. He was the major shareholder. His share got related to X and he ended up in a lawsuit that he lost and basically got a settlement at the end of it, on a billion-dollar idea.
Gerry Hill (10:04):
So it happens all the time.
Chris Beall (10:06):
That happens.
Gerry Hill (10:08):
Yeah. I started an inside team on a practical basis for a pretty hot start in the UK. I can't disclose what it is. And the CEO was adamant. She was never going to dilute, never going to dilute, never going to dilute. Now, there's kind of a horrible culture over there at the time. And so there's a bit of bitterness. One of the previous colleagues who got let go horribly and didn't deserve to sent me through the company's house filings after their latest rate. She ended up diluting everything. She owns zero in the company anymore, but she's still the CEO, even after all of that stuff and that's visible. You can see it in the company's house. Now her major next problem is she's now got growth number on her target and the way that a chief revenue offer does. She fail to attain that. She's really easy to get rid of because not only does she not have any real stake anymore and her go-to-market execution's absolutely messed up. Because she's reliant on four customers.
Shane Mahi (11:10):
I'm putting my boxing gloves on and I'm going to town with them. That such a bad idea.
Chris Beall (11:16):
All right, Shane. So I'm going to tell the audience you've done something really, really smart recently.
Shane Mahi (11:22):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (11:23):
You gave me a call and said you were looking for an initial set of partners in order to engage with provide value to know what you were learning, know how you were learning, and form a foundation on which you could build the business in the next stage.
Shane Mahi (11:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (11:42):
I was very intrigued with that. I got Gerry involved. We did a test drive yesterday. We're now partners, right? How long did that take end to end from you giving me that call to us being partners and moving forward?
Shane Mahi (11:54):
Couple of days.
Chris Beall (11:56):
Couple of days.
Gerry Hill (11:56):
Not even.
Chris Beall (11:57):
Right. Nobody raises money in a couple days and this relationship is worth a lot more than a VC too. I can guarantee you over time. You'll learn things. We'll learn a bunch from you also. And then you'll also do something really valuable for us, which is drive meeting for Gerry. And Gerry's a big producer. So I love to have the draft horses eating well, because that way they pull hard on the plow. It is just... What can I say?
Shane Mahi (12:23):
Well, I'll tell you even just now. I'm not even being anything cheesy. I honestly just had chills down and it's not because the windows is open, but I had chills run and down my body because of that. And I have been through my run of the trenches through my life. And even some of the contracts for business that we've had with some of our clients have been a nightmare in some cases and meeting Gerry for the first time when we trialed, connect then so to become a customer and then getting into conversations with you and learning from you and then just the ease and the comfortability of that conversation and how it's transitioned. I've heard many, many times, that's how business should be done. If somebody makes business complicated, you probably don't want to work with them.
Shane Mahi (13:53):
When somebody makes businesses smooth and energetic and fun as it is with you guys, even yesterday, we smashed out the park, I think Gerry had a great meeting, even today with one of the people we put forward, that's what a company wants to aspire to be. They want to dream of having partners that they can connect with, they can click with, and they can create that magic. And that is what I believe we're creating with you guys at ConnectAndSell. So in everything that we say, we are in debt to you guys. We're thankful to be even in conversations, even on just appearance with you guys. It means a lot.
Chris Beall (14:27):
It means a lot to us too. So I'm going to bring out some technical issues here that I think Gerry's quite the technical guy when it comes to building businesses. So Gerry, you and I both know that in the world of manufacturing stuff, all of us who have ever been successful know that there's this thing called the theory of constraints and there's only one bottleneck, right? We know that. We also know that you have to characterize the bottleneck in terms of throughput, cycle time and quality. And that those are objective measures, not subjective measures. Throughput is units per unit time, right? That one we got to know. Cycle time is I got to make one. How long does it take till I get one out, and I can go make another one? And then quality is what percentage of what comes out actually gets used downstream and what per percentage gets scrapped. That's it, that's all there is to it. And there's only one bottleneck in any organization.
Chris Beall (15:17):
And I firmly believe the bottleneck in almost every B2B organization is the flow rate of meetings with folks that they should be talking with, not just to sell, but to learn. There's feedback loops that we have to have. We can't know everything. And the only reliable way to learn anything is through direct experience, working with people trying to solve their problems or failing to be allowed to solve their problems or anything in between. All those things are great, right? So Shane, you just described the cycle time from desiring an investment of a kind, right? Investment and partnership, to having the opportunity to pitch, which was the test drive that you did yesterday, your team did yesterday to closing that deal that is getting funded, so to speak, to delivering first value.
Chris Beall (16:06):
Now think about that from a venture capitalist. When do you ever deliver first value back to the VC? You have already delivered first value in a cycle time of one day because Gerry's had one of the meetings. And so that meeting is probably worth, I'm going to guess, given Gerry's close rate, that's about a seven to $10,000 value meeting on average, some number like that. Here's a point I'm going to make. And Gerry, you can elaborate this. When we talk about risk in business, a risk in anything, we tend to talk portfolio, right? The way you solve risk is through portfolio. Have a lot of stuff on the table, have a lot going on, have it at different points in its evolution, and something will be coming across the finish line at every point. And you can do this with deals. You can do it with learning. You can do it with people. Everything's got a portfolio associated with it.
Chris Beall (16:52):
What I think we tend not to think about is that the risk within the portfolio can be sharply changed, sharply reduced by reducing the cycle time to value of every step within the execution of that portfolio from engagement to value delivered. The shorter that cycle time is, the lower our risk is, because we learn faster and I've made this point on multiple episodes of Market Dominance Guys, overhead is like a racehorse. It eats while we sleep. Like Shane, when you went out in the business on your own with that commission check, there's the racehorse called your life and it's eating at that having nothing to do with the business. That's your overhead, right? So the faster we cycle and produce value and produce knowledge, the lower our risk. And oddly enough, it takes patience to run fast cycle time businesses. It takes patience because we have to say, "Well, we don't rely on any one of these. We're going to be patient and let them hit, but we're going to make, them run as fast as they can within the bounds of nature," right?
Chris Beall (18:04):
Gerry, I want you to riff on this little bit. I'm going to play Corey Frank here and ask you to look at the world you've lived in, which there's a lot more as I call it, analytical machinery around business than most of us that you understand. And look at this issue of how fast do you go from I'll call it, from pitch or idea, proposal, whatever it is to value delivered across the portfolio. How much does that play in your mind as you're thinking about business, and you're thinking about risk reduction? Because the essence of market dominance is risk reduction. Oddly enough, market dominance is a risk reduction program. It is not anything else. Reduce the risk of losing your company by dominating one market, then go dominate another. What's that cycle time X? Whatever it is. What's the cycle time of the little stuff in there? Better pay attention. What are your thoughts on this Gerry?
Gerry Hill (18:56):
I think you can run those cycles in parallel as well. If you've got the right process and systems and people in place.
Chris Beall (19:03):
Ah.
Gerry Hill (19:05):
With some standardization and just some deviation, the standardization is going to be who. The standardization is going to be what. What am I going to say? How am I going to engage? The difference might be, who am I speaking to? The difference might be, which market am I speaking to them in? And then I'm going to intelligently look at that data, review it and determine [inaudible 00:19:29] and effort and motion require the objective, the goal, the thing that I need to prove that this was a valuable and worthwhile experiment. What I'm not going to do though, is set the boundaries out for six months because six months is far too long for me to tolerate failure points. But if I can get the same amount of data, same amount of information, the same flow insight in a week or two weeks that I can get in six months, then every single hypothesis that I want to test that I believe in is worth running into the side of a mountain. And that's kind of how I think about it.
Gerry Hill (20:03):
Every single experiment is taking an idea and literally throwing the tennis ball or whatever into the type of a building and seeing if it comes back at you with the right signal or if it deviates. And can I do something about the deviation? Is it the deviation of 1% or is it a deviation of 15% from my normal performance levels that I'm anticipating? If it's 15% plus I'm probably going to park it for a while until I can resource it appropriately with the right message, the right staff, the right level of maturity. If it's 1%, I might go again and double down on one of the variables to see if I can bring it back to zero on the degree spectrum. But the key point is, so as long as I'm investing that data, give myself a mindset which is, I'm going to stay neutral and just simply observing and analyze rather than being materially invested emotionally to the concept, I can get very far very fast.
Gerry Hill (20:53):
One of the things I liked about the test drive that we ran yesterday is inside our operation for better worse, our data connects been dropping off. I've been experiencing it a lot. My lists have fatigued. We brought in Shane's fresh lens on targeting and his fresh lens on list building. Their lists proved better than our lists, right? It's not an experiment that we were necessarily going to run inside our company without going through the cycle of getting other people involved in the process. But this was another way that we could dynamically take control of something. Virtually everything stayed the same, same system, same weapon, same message, fundamentally the same regional skill level across the board minus chain and [inaudible 00:21:39]. What was the variable? The specificity of the list and the list vendor that we used. That's a really good example of that playing out in the real world.
Shane Mahi (21:48):
That's a great example.
Chris Beall (21:53):
Yeah. Fascinating you bring that up by the way. Our own list, as you know, had been kind of degrading over the summer. And part of it was I think a strategic miscommunication or misalignment that had us focusing on a smaller subset of lists and we could have gone into some others in our land and expand world. Just to quote you some numbers, our dial to connect a week ago was 36 point something today, it was 19.97, exactly one week later. Because we paid attention to Shane, what you taught us yesterday. And we actually did something with it in our own shop. And voila, we got an improvement with regard to dial to connect. By the way, we didn't get an improvement with regard to the number of meetings. And I'll make this point, you're going to have to put up with a lot of this yourself.
Chris Beall (22:41):
When you measure the outcome only, and you don't know what the intermediate steps that lead to it are, and you're not measuring those separately, you can get dicked like nobody's business into thinking either nothing is happening when something's happening. So here I'm looking at this. Our dial to connect improved by a factor of two. Our number of meetings stays the same. Our conversion rate went down by a factor of two. Now, is that because we were calling on list that we didn't have a good message for, that is we got the numerical more folks to talk to, but we went up in company size and maybe we need to change our message a little bit. That's a possibility that comes out. Cycle time for that whole thing, one day, right? One day. We don't know it's time to dig into those particular conversations and ask that question. And you're going to be challenged with this, because you want to do this for other companies and they're going to want to resist science, right?
Chris Beall (23:37):
Gerry's describing a scientific way of going to market. He used the word experiment. He meant it. He didn't use it like an experiment. He used it as an experiment, change one variable, run it, stay objective. I love it. Gerry talked about staying emotionally separated, like you can't go in and do science and go, "I sure hope this works. Squeeze harder, and I'll make that buns and burner hotter and I.. Okay man, I'll fro it against a wall, maybe that will make something happen." It doesn't work like that. And I'm an old scientist. I get this. You have to be a little cool to be a scientist, right? Bring a little fancy to it. But what are you experiencing already working with customers, where you are trying to bring a more scientific approach to their go-to market and their market dominance and they might not be resonating with you on it. What is your experience and what do you think you're going to have to do in order to deal with that other than get great customers like ours? [crosstalk 00:24:35].
Shane Mahi (24:36):
Hope either slow or a complete halt to their learning experience or their learning and development. Now with us, as soon as we... So I came from a Mitel phone, then I went to an 8X8 software. I told you about that, Gerry. Yeah, we are using 8X8. We are running and gunning right now. And then we stepped into ConnectAndSell and literally stepped into an Aventador SVJ with polar exhaust, everything mapped out and we just went for it. And the thing is, because it was not only the data, it was adapting to that software and that speed of work and that speed of performance that completely accelerated our growth. And it's because we were able to understand much clearer, much better. We were able to pivot quicker. We were able to understand data sets a lot clearer.
Shane Mahi (25:34):
And simple, simple example of just mobiles versus office and headquarter lines. There's a, it was a 4.49 versus a 9.59, almost a double increase in performance based on the quality of what you choose in your list. So when I'm speaking with companies and we are not using in some instances... No, we are not using ConnectAndSell, and in those instances, the performance is poor. The performance, the activity, the level of engagement is poor because it takes so much longer to understand who we're trying to speak to. However, when we flip the script and we jump into the weapon, for example, we analyze data, we analyze trends, we analyze outcomes, we analyze the performance of the list, I'm able to dig into how do I turn up the notch with each and every one of my reps?
Shane Mahi (26:26):
I can see they're dials. I can see their conversations. I can see everything from front to back and literally have a full dashboard of what I need to learn, analyze, change, tweak, review, and then execute. So to the direct answer to your question is what do I experience if I'm working with customers that don't adopt that behavior is they learn slower, their results are achieved a lot slower, and they halt what the potential is for greatness. And that's where applying the right technology comes into play.
Chris Beall (27:03):
I mean, it is quite interesting because they end up in this. I'm going to coin a Gartner or a Forester type of term. They end up in this trough of disillusionment, where they think they're buying something. The execution is constrained. The learning's constrained. Their mindset goes from enthusiasm to, "Okay, where is it? Where's this amazing thing." And then it goes to concern, and then it goes to, "Just get me the bloody meetings," rather than, "Help us diagnose why the meetings don't exist." Now, the methodology that is superior, it's just coined by McKinsey, right? If I think about what they do to structure an analytical framework over anything that you want to explore is superior. The way we think about it at ConnectAndSell is that there are three inputs, rep-less message. I'm adding another one coaching. How can I coach a velocity? Can I coach well enough? Four components, the four-legged stool, right?
Chris Beall (28:01):
Now, if I'm McKinsey, what am I doing? I'm analyzing information. But there's four things to analyze. There's not one thing to analyze, there's four. So their framework is mutually exclusive, comprehensively exhaustive. Mutually exclusive, I'm going to analyze list without thinking about any of the other stuff. And I'm going to come to a conclusion about list. I'm going to analyze rep without thinking about the odd stuff and come to a conclusion about rep. I'm going to analyze messaging and come to a conclusion about messaging. And then I'm going to analyze coaching and come to a conclusion about coaching. And at the end, I'm going to apply my superior brainpower to analyzing those four conclusions together, to come up with a meaningful, almost perfect analysis of the total, the whole.
Chris Beall (28:54):
Now, one of the things that a lot of people who are inexperienced with processing data at volume, turning data into insight and looking at dashboards is that they're jumping between the themes and mixing their conclusion so that they don't actually come up with the total conclusion.
Shane Mahi (29:12):
That's a good point.
Chris Beall (29:13):
And we get bogged down on this insight culture, with data culture. We love TotalGen. We love the power of big data, but unless you know how to mutually exclusively and comprehensively exhaustive to analyze each of the four components of success, then you're never going to win. And I think, one of the areas in business, which suffers the most still is this massive lack of maturity on the value of analysis and data isn't going to market execution, especially on the sales side. Marketers are starting to get their shit together here, but we still suffer. Now, what I think is unique about your business proposition, Shane, other than the execution of staying meetings is you've got a radical opportunity to rip up the playbook for outsource selling and actually lead with the insight, lead with the data, lead with the value that's created by being able to forensically pick apart the four things, which matter, rep-less message and coaching.
Shane Mahi (30:10):
I like the forensic word that you threw in there. Forensic outsource specialists.
Gerry Hill (30:18):
Hey, you could use that. Go ahead.
Chris Beall (30:20):
It's the words that matter. But there's a royalty attached and it's about 20% [crosstalk 00:30:26].
Shane Mahi (30:27):
I'll pay it.
How did you get started in sales? And what led you to the position you now hold and the company you are currently involved with? Shane Mahi, Founder and CEO of SalesDRIIVN, and Gerry Hill, EMEA Regional Vice President of ConnectAndSell, are asked these very questions by our Market Dominance Guy Chris Beall in today’s podcast. Surprisingly, a common answer emerges to the first question: both guests, as well as our host, took their first step into the sales world by selling products door to door — and doing so successfully. Our guests describe the steps that subsequently led them to where they are today, and this leads to a discussion with Chris about funding new companies and the temptation and possible pitfalls of taking venture money to facilitate growth. Follow their conversation in this first of three meetings of the minds on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Is Venture Capital for You?”
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About Our Guests Shane Mahi is Founder and CEO of SalesDRIIVN, a service provided by some of the sharpest minds in sales, generating quality meetings for its customers.
Gerry Hill holds the position of Regional Vice President/EMEA of ConnectAndSell, a Silicon Valley-based sales acceleration company, which provides technology that gets salespeople 10x more live conversations with decision makers.
The full transcript from this episode is here:
Chris Beall (01:29):
Okay, everybody. This is another episode of Market Dominance Guys, and this one is special. So we've had no guests. We did that for, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 episodes, because remember those of you who don't know, we're just trying to get material for a book on market dominance. By the way, the book still hasn't come out. But I am here with Shane Mahi and Gerry Hill all the way from the UK. So we recorded a bunch with no guests. Then we had a bunch of guests and finally, we had woken up to the possibility that there really is business, including sales, on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. I think it's amazing that we discovered this. So I feel like, my name is Chris. So I feel like Christopher Columbus going the other way and finding out that, in fact, not only is there sales, there's a level of sales innovation going on in the UK right now that I've thought we should tap into.
Chris Beall (02:24):
So Gerry and Shane, welcome to the show.
Shane Mahi (02:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Beall (02:32):
And by the way, this is the first time we've ever had two guests at once. So I anticipate this is going to be a total cluster with regard to who talks when. So I'm going to try to be a good host and ask questions when at a time or whatever. But first I'd like to start with beauty and youth. So we'll go with Shane. And Shane, could you tell us how you got to here? You're running this company called Sales Driivn. We just observed you guys, your team knocking it out of several parks. I think in some games it would've been a six and others it would've been a walk-off home run. I don't know what it would've been in fencing, but somebody would've died. ConnectAndSell yesterday. But how did you get here to where we're hanging out on this podcast together?
Shane Mahi (03:12):
I think, I think you're being quite modest, Chris, but I got here from... There's plenty of good conversations with you around growing our business, and yesterday was a definitely an eye-opener, even for our team. We got a chance to trial the weapon. But trialing the weapon, selling the weapon, which is definitely something new for us. And we're able to achieve some incredible results based on our activity yesterday. And lo and behold, had a good conversation after. We are now partnering with you guys, and I am now featuring as a guest on the podcast. So, just really excited to be here and share our story.
Chris Beall (03:51):
Fantastic. Fantastic. And did you grow up in sales or did you intend to be something more productive?
Shane Mahi (03:57):
My dad told me one time, if you go to law school, if you go to Harvard Law School, I will get you any Porsche 911 that you want. That wasn't enough to get there. Clearly, because I did not get to that law school. But I was horrible, absolutely terrible at school. I was always a disciplinary issue in high school, middle school, college, didn't really take a liking to books. And when I got out of college and realized that I had not achieved anything in my life, I decided to sell Cutco Knives. So I don't know... In America that's a whole thing. Cutco knives, going door to door, family relatives, trying to sell knife sets for $1,500. Came to find out that I was pretty good at selling knives to parents and my friend's parents. So that obviously went into a whole rabbit hole of more selling.
Shane Mahi (04:54):
I ended up taking my Series 7 license, my Series 66 license to become a financial advisor, ended up getting into a different environment or walk of life and that cut that path right in half. And then long story short, I fell into sales, into event sales, then demand generation sales, corporate sales, and then oil and gas demand generation sales. And after a while of just thinking I I'm not working for a ship company, I decided to figure out a way to do things faster, better make people's lives easier. And that's when we created Sales Driivn.
Chris Beall (05:31):
Fantastic. Love the story. I didn't get into Harvard Law School either and I didn't try either. So, we have that in common. It's fantastic. Gerry, how about you? Here you are Gerry, by the way, runs AMEA for ConnectAndSell. He also secretly runs our most significant partnerships. He has many skills in these areas and advises me on all manner of things and corrects me on some. Here he is on Market Dominance Guys, probably the pinnacle of your career now, Gerry, I'm sure, as being on the show. But how did you get into this? You're you're a guy who's been known to do some other things. You're not the smallest person in the world or the least athletic. You've been known to play a little sport here and there. But how did you end up here overall? And specifically.
Gerry Hill (06:15):
I was looking to solve a problem and I Googled some stuff and ConnectAndSell came up as a thing that could potentially solve a problem for me. And I'm not sure if you'll ever remember this, Chris, but you took the lead exchange. You personally called me up from your cell phone on a Saturday afternoon and it about 1:00 PM in the UK. I think you were probably still in either Nevada or Colorado at the time. And we probably sat down and spoke for about 45 minutes.
Gerry Hill (06:44):
I was on my way out the door to play golf. I didn't play golf that day. Instead you and me had a pretty dynamic conversation about what was wrong with funding and startups, the VC code system being fundamentally broken. We talked about go to market being this flawed fabled complex exercise when it could be something really simple. And at the end of the call, you said to me, "Hey Gerry, you should do a test drive." And I'm like, "What's a test drive?" And he's like, "Oh, don't worry about what the test drive is. I'll get you over in front of my man, James Townsend, and you'll do a test drive." Like that's how I ended up here specifically.
Gerry Hill (07:17):
How did I end up in perfectional selling. Same story as everyone else. Probably the smartest kid in the room meant I was absolutely terrible in a formal academic environment, messed around at college, played a lot of rugby for dollars, had a massive ego and then suddenly wasn't playing rugby anymore and needed to make a living. And the only way I could make a living was at an 18,000 pound a year recruitment shop called Robert Half where I absolutely rocked it for 18 months, but realized the recruitment model was broken and transitioned into management, consultancy advisory research, and then into software.
Chris Beall (07:56):
Wow. Okay. So you didn't sell door to door. No knives for you.
Gerry Hill (08:00):
My first ever sales job was whilst I was still in high school. I was in my last year of secondary school, high school for the American audience for translation, and I was selling kitchens and I would work there two nights to the week after school being a demo guy for the kitchens. And then I'd be doing surveys and sizing and pricing kitchens and closing 30,000-pound deals with moms on Saturday afternoons when I was 17 years old.
Chris Beall (08:32):
So you did door to door also. It's kind of a funny theme on Market Dominance Guys, almost everybody that is on the show sold door to door at some point relatively early in their career, some more intentionally than others. I was probably the least intentional. I was trying to fund paying for a little gap in American healthcare called American Healthcare. And my first wife had had a miscarriage and I needed to make some money in a hurry. And the next day I found myself selling Fuller Brush door to door and that turned into... It didn't turn into a sales career, but it turned into a revelation, which was "Wow, you could do this in a really simple way that works." And that's not how most people are doing it. And then I kind of put that away. But it's interesting.
Chris Beall (09:23):
So I want to go to revelations here, not in a biblical sense, but in an eye-opening sense. Shane, I'm going to ask you this. There has to be a point in the process of learning all this stuff where you said to yourself, and maybe not, you can tell me if this didn't happen, where you said, "Wait a second, nobody knows what they're doing in sales. It's not like they think. It's simpler than that." Did that happen to you?
Shane Mahi (09:51):
Absolutely. And it was as simple as a Salesforce automation. So I was working at a very outdated intelligence agency, but mostly run on corporate hospitality and events. And it was literally a Mitel Phone, manual Salesforce. They didn't even want to fund LinkedIn, no technology whatsoever. And I came across few books and Google searches on how to make sales faster. And one of those things was just sequencing, just sequencing. And I found out through the Salesforce admin, yeah, you guys have the enterprise license, you can do that. So I started to that with my Salesforce admin. We started... And I started getting out tons of emails to people, started getting actual responses and I didn't have to do the work because this was at the time of the pandemic. And after I asked to roll it out across the team, the sales director said no.
Shane Mahi (10:56):
And that for me, it was just like, what can you do? You cannot be this stupid. And then more and more things. I started to learn and understand like, okay, this happened. You can do this multi-threading stuff. You can do this. You could do this. You got, you got systems that call for you. And he was just like, "We're not going to get the investment." So I closed this huge deal with Leica Microsystems, took that commission, and started my own company and said, I'm going to do it myself.
Chris Beall (11:23):
Alright. I love it. So you didn't just have the revelation, you had the revelation leading to you opening the door to action.
Shane Mahi (11:31):
Exactly. Had to. I'm an executor.
Chris Beall (11:34):
Well, didn't it scare the living daylights out of you to go out on your own? You got to little pocket full of commission check, but as you do the math, and I'm sure you can do the math, you realize them things dwindle like crazy over time when you're out executing. It's like watching a bathtub draining, except somebody punched a big hole in the bottom of it. Was it scary or was it just fun?
Shane Mahi (11:55):
I did a lot of personal development in the year of 2019 and 2020. And my life coach, she spoke to me and said, "What is the reason you're holding onto this job?" And I said, "Security." And the whole security came around a monthly paycheck that came with commissions. And she said, "Well, look at it. You are going paycheck to paycheck, anyway. You are waiting for your commissions, what they're holding from you anyway. So what security do you really have?" And that was an eye-opener for me. And I just thought, you know what, you're actually right. And do I hold onto these commission checks that are coming in or do I take a leap of faith and own my space, own my belief systems that I can do it. I know I can go make money and just go for it.
Shane Mahi (12:41):
What is the worst that could happen? My wife had just literally moved from Morocco. We were about to move into a new place, new things happening in my life. I asked my wife, I said, "Hey look, do you think I should do this?" She said, "Follow your dreams." And that was enough for me, my partner and myself, just going headfirst into it and saying, what's the worst that could happen? You fail. And you try again. So for me, there was no fear. I've been through too many things in my life to hold back growth for a little bit of something that could present a bit fear in my life. No, that wasn't an issue for me.
Chris Beall (13:54):
How about you, Gerry? You, you must have had a revelation at some point. You have a pretty iconoclastic view of sales and business, right? I do remember that first conversation actually.
Gerry Hill (14:09):
It's just an imbalance in the world. And I dislike the imbalance. It doesn't feel right for me. Like everyone else took the blue pill and I've taken the red pill. And I feel like I see the world in a very different context. And the context is that the model is broken. Now, I'm all for job creation, I'm all for the economy, I'm all for B2B. I'm an ardent capitalist. But the reality is we're now living in an automation first world, and those automations are becoming more sophisticated.
Gerry Hill (14:34):
All I really want from my talker-listers in the world, I want them to be doing their job. I don't want them to be admin junkies, I want them to be admin monkeys. The reason we allow that behavior to happen is because the way that companies are funded today, they no longer produce goods, products, inventory. You can't get rid of that inventory through a selling motion anymore. It's all esoteric. It's software. It's code. There's no real value attached to the manufacturing of those products anymore.
Gerry Hill (15:05):
But you take investment money, you need to be seen to put that money to work, and that money needs to go to work in two ways: The perception that we're a big company and the perception that we're a big company in two forms, real estate and headcount. And what do you get every time you hire somebody new? You get less profit per employee, because the value of that employee's contribution to the top line of your company diminishes because there's less of the pie to go around.
Gerry Hill (15:32):
So what the founders, what the company owners, what the people that create innovation and try to take it to market end up doing, they end up going into debt and don't realize the potential value of their own businesses because they take money from charlatans who wear [inaudible 00:15:47] and spend their life in spreadsheets who aren't executioners, who don't understand what it's like to build, run, bootstrap from scratch. So that is the imbalance in the world is this reappropriation of venture capital as another asset class staffed by investment bankers, treat companies like bets, not the vehicles for value creation, for founders, owners, original shareholders that they got the potential to be. And what do we see in the world of professional selling today? We don't see any professional selling anymore as a result.
Chris Beall (16:25):
That's fascinating. I'm listening to you and thinking back to the latest edition of Nathan Latka's magazine, and he has a physical magazine. It's a great way to consume the lists that he creates. Actually, I think you can't beat paper for consuming a list quickly with your eyes. I don't know why, by the way this is so, but it's sitting over here on a coffee table nearby. But this is the headcount issue. And it's kind of funny because Latka is very big into bootstrapping.
Chris Beall (16:55):
And even though there's a legitimate element to growth. We grew. We're bootstrapping and we grow when you add some people, but it was who grew the most in terms of headcount. And I was reading it and going, man, I always resonate with this Latka stuff, but I'm not resonating with this growth of headcount as a measure of, I kept up with the VC-funded businesses. To me, if I wanted to see how many people I could hire, if that was my goal, I don't know what I'd do. I guess I'd just make it really fun and attractive to somebody with a bunch of money so that we could hire a bunch of people and lose their money. But that sounds like the standard VC model to me.
Chris Beall (17:36):
So did you ever... Were you ever like on board, Gerry, with the VC model? And then I'm going to ask you Shane. Shane, did you ever get tempted by the VC model? Cause I know you could raise money, unlike me. Nobody would fund me. I mean, guys from Google actually told me you're so old, you could never be funded.
Gerry Hill (17:55):
I think part of my disillusionment was when I worked at Frost and Sullivan in the advisory space, a huge number of our clients were private equity and [inaudible 00:18:03] a bit jaded by the fact that they were just fueling these big beasts, these big corporate beasts with more and more debt. And then when you go down another level, VC is essentially the same. It's the same thing. You're taking other people's money, fueling companies with debt and not necessarily realizing the benefit of that debt or, turning that be debt to value in any way, shape or form. And then I started advising companies on go-to-market strategies and helping them prepare the go-to-market components of pitch steps.
Gerry Hill (18:30):
And I was going into about four or five VC pitch meetings a month. And I was just universally underwhelmed by virtually every single professional investor I met because they actually didn't care about the go-to-market stuff. Spent cycles prepping it. Spent cycles going through it. But unless you could talk about one number, your TAM and massive TAMs at that. They were the only things that they're ever interested in, even when they claim to be niche and differentiated. And then you actually get to the underpinnings of a term sheet and you realize what a racket it is.
Gerry Hill (19:05):
Gangsterism. They're still going to take their two and twenty out of the fund which means that the capital that you get left with is 80, 78% of the total realized value of the investment that gets made. After that 78% has been tranched based on performance milestones, which you may or may not realize, how much capital do you actually end up with over a four-year investment from that fund or that cohort of funds. One-fourth of the total number.
Gerry Hill (19:34):
And how can you put that capital to work, especially if you've got a technical deficit or you've got some fiscal issues inside the business that exists today. So by the time you've paid down that debt with the debt that you just took, your business is failing anyway. The only way you can get through that is to sell yourself out of it. And I think the biggest sort of tension that I found was speaking to CEOs going what's better, slower growth, bootstrap to profitability on a really robust sales process that's designed on [inaudible 00:20:02] rate improved with market dominance at the core, or take this money. And nine times out of ten, none of them could think more than the vanity metric of taking the investment round so that they could be featured at tech crunch. And I just got massively jaded that something's gone wrong in business.
Gerry Hill (20:17):
The business that my dad used to talk to me about as an ex IBM executive from the seventies and the eighties from Xerox that used to sell things and make profit and grow shareholder value the right way versus anything .io. It just doesn't make sense to me. And one of the reasons why I'm so emboldened by the mission at ConnectAndSell is to help companies realize the potential value of their businesses, whether they're funded or non-funded by giving them the tools to cookbooks and the playbooks to become market dominant. That's the mission.
Chris Beall (20:52):
It's funny that you refer to it as debt, because most people think when they take equity financing, it's not a form of debt and you have nailed it. It is-
Gerry Hill (21:01):
What else is it?
Chris Beall (21:02):
What else is it? Exactly. We give you money. You owe us. It just turns out that what you us is hard to figure out. Back when we were venture-funded, our corporate documents were that thick. And I was at one point tasked with understanding every word in those documents in order to be able to execute on some plays that were needed to essentially save the company from the VCs. And they needed to be executed very, very quickly. And unlike you, Shane, I did take to books and I can read documents like that and keep all that shit in my head and do okay with it.
Chris Beall (21:39):
But it struck me as I got deeper and deeper into it. I asked myself this question. In those documents, how many of the words were there to protect the VCs and how many of the words were there to protect the company? And how many of the words were there that had anything to do with growing the company? So the latter category was easy. Zero. None of the words were there to help grow the company. And I counted them up on a number of pages and you know how I am Gerry, I'll do this kind of stupid stuff. And I literally counted word by word, by word for a few pages at random in different spots and asked what were the words for? And 97% of all the words were to protect the venture capitalists against downside risk.
Chris Beall (22:26):
That was it. And I realized, these are salvage shops. That's what they are. They're salvage shops. And so to build something that looks like that boat behind me, but the chances of it floating are only about 3 or 4%. And so we got to make sure that we can kind of quickly get the steel and the plastic and the glass and the bones of the dead bodies that we can grind up for fertilizer and anything else we can find and sell it on and do it as quickly as possible. Because we only have so much time to focus on building another picture of a pretty boat. It's quite a while. No, Shane, I don't know if you obviously have... You haven't been subjected to as much of this as Gerry.
Shane Mahi (23:08):
No, I haven't. I'm thinking what the fu... I [crosstalk 00:23:08] wanted to get this. I don't want to touch it now.
Gerry Hill (23:15):
Pirates in chalets mate. That's all they are pirates-
Chris Beall (23:18):
Well, maybe the whole purpose of today's episode was to save you from a big mistake.
Shane Mahi (23:22):
Well, I think it already it is because I'm sure, I'm sure I'm certain that there are so many people out there that in the midst of what's happened since 2020, I know it's just a repeated topic that goes over and over again, but I truly believe that the world was going to change after March 2020. And I'm sure there's so many people that want to go get invested because when we were starting the company or in the midst of growth with our company, I was just thinking, I want more money. I want more money to grow. I want to grow faster. I want to grow faster. I want to grow faster than somebody told me. Look, calm down. You need to organically grow your business the right way. And it's... I'm guilty of it. All I saw was green. There could be dollars that more, that account balance more zeros on the account.
Shane Mahi (24:11):
I can hire more people. I can buy more cool technology. I can invest in more things and even having my colleagues or people in my network say, "No, you've got it all wrong. You don't understand. Investment is there to help. If you grow, they're not there to screw you." And then you hear the flip side of things. So being educated from people who actually have been in that environment like yourself, Gerry, or even you, Chris, who's actually read through documents, it's a massive eye-opener. And I think there’s a company stage two capital macro version, a whole bunch of leaders that are running that. And their whole thing too, is don't fall into the trap, do it the right way, right? Learn from other people's mistakes. And without even a section like this, I genuinely could have fallen into a huge mistake. I've taken a whole boatload of money and losing entire control of my company, losing control of the direction and the vision that we have, and potentially sinking the business. And that's just being naive.
Gerry Hill (25:13):
[crosstalk 00:25:13] I'm not being negative around why investment can be useful. Taking investment can be a good thing. But it has to be the right investor. I think the other difference, generally speaking, is most people don't understand how their valuations are calculated inside their own businesses. So if you are not in control of the valuion and what you believe your valuation to be, then how do you actually execute? Well, you've got to take third-party advice. Third-party advice isn't free. So the process of even giving yourself a gearing for valuation is tough. What's the easy thing to do though by comparison is do what you're really good at as a business. Pick up the phone, have conversations with as many people in your market as possible, down to the finest sweet spot, where you can leverage and market dominate that sweet spot as much as possible, refine your messaging, acquire enough customers in a short enough amount of time that you can then cross the chasm and go into that next market.
Gerry Hill (26:08):
Now you investment rate, because you've actually got tangible things on your balance sheet that you can talk to people about. And what do we see in the world? We see seed funds that are raising series A amount of money. We see series A that are raising series B. We're seeing pretty poor products raised to $115 million in capital on billion-dollar valuation. And the big trick that the world is being played at the moment is that there's so much access to free capital at the moment. This concept that I heard the other day from my mortgage broker, I just got approved on a mortgage, which is absolutely ridiculous. .99% fixed for five years. Why? Cash is trashed. So the amount of liquidity available to venture capitalists right now to go out and fund other people's businesses and prop, them up for another five years of not getting any further forward in their actual purpose, which is to acquire customers and serve customers. It's something that we are all going to be paying for in 20 years’ time.
or in 20 years’ time.
Could you name that one all-important thing that makes your relationship with your customers successful? Rahul Maniktala, Microsoft’s Strategic Account Director of Semi/Hi-Tech Manufacturing, can: As he tells our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, that all-important thing is “doing the day-to-day right.” Why? Because it daily reinforces the trust your customers feel for you and your company, which incrementally builds the credibility of your services and products. And with that credibility in place, you have a decent shot at an agreement with your customer when you propose bigger, more important initiatives. Take a listen to more insights shared by Rahul, who has been a Microsoft employee for eight years, as he explains the culture of collaboration at his company, whether he stands with human intelligence predictions or artificial intelligence predictions, and what job he wanted to do when he was a 10-year-old, on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Doing the Day-to-Day Right.”
Listen to the first half of this two-part interview:
Empathy, Goals, and Alignment of Purpose ----more----
About Our Guest
Rahul Maniktala is a technology executive, a sales engineer, and currently Microsoft’s Strategic Account Director of Semi/Hi-Tech Manufacturing.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Christopher Beall (01:31):
So there's a big difference in the world of just regular old sales market dominance kind of stuff. People care a lot about forecasts. I don't care that much about forecasts because I think you handle those with a portfolio and you just don't worry about it. Have a bigger portfolio, the individual deal is not that big of a deal. It happens or it doesn't. Who knows? The world's full of all sorts of crazy stuff, right?
But it sounds like forecasting of a kind - prediction is a real key for you. And so when people talk about like, you've got to know what's going to happen next. You have to have that conviction, right? That I know what's going to happen next. I don't have to keep second-guessing myself and acting crazy about it. Maybe every once in a while, there's this surprise, but pretty much if I've done my job right, it kind of plays out.
So here we live in a world where everything that has the word "prediction" associated with it is now associated with AI, right? So if there's a prediction, somebody is going to tell you there's some ML that can do the prediction better than us human beings. So here you are, somebody who handles relationships, there's a political element to it, there are the rules of engagement, and then there are these predictions. Do you think an AI is ever going to come in and help with those predictions, replace your right arm or a lobe of your brain or something like that? You guys at Microsoft got no shortage of AI, right? You got AI everywhere. Do you actually use AI kind of predictive capabilities in the job itself, or is that more in the bucket of things that you offer to your customer that they can use in their business, and Microsoft can use it elsewhere in the business, but they're not using it as a prosthesis or anything else for Rahul?
Rahul Maniktala (03:20):
We do both.
Christopher Beall (03:21):
Oh, now he's talking.
Rahul Maniktala (03:24):
The technology, and we rely on every human being for their own AI. So the technology AI gives a certain thing with some amount of predictability, but then our own AI, which is bent on those connections and rules of engagement helps us with how we engage. And some people do it more. Some people do less. I have a little line there.
Sometimes folks on the team would say that you come up with all these conspiracy theories and generally I would say, generally, those conspiracy theories are true. They come true with that element of AI. What we do, we do internally. There is a lot of in the last three, four years, we have seen those items helping us with the business as such.
Christopher Beall (04:10):
I can tell Corey has a thought, Corey is thinking. This Rahul, is he a bot? Maybe he's actually a bot.
Corey Frank (04:18):
He is right because I'm going to say that I'm a part AI. Then I've never considered myself. Certain my wife doesn't think I'm part AI. Something else starts with an eight 50. If we take Rahul out of Microsoft you become the fourth market dominance guy, right? It's like the Musketeers we have Henry, he's obligated for the third spot.
And then Rahul, let's say you become an investor, private equity investor, or venture investor. And you were to give advice to organizations that are in that 10 to $50 million range about market dominance, knowing what you've learned and gleaned certainly from the Cisco days and the latter Microsoft years of working with, as you said, the 65 clients now to just one, I imagined the speed that you see in a large organization like that, managing one client, everything slows down like the matrix to you, probably to a smaller organization that you see things that maybe I wouldn't see for quite a few cycles.
When you do that, when you have other buddies or colleagues say, "Hey, Rahul, would you take a look at my business and see where maybe it's wrong or a little off", what are some of the common speed bumps that you see to dominate a market that you know so well right now? It is like plain vanilla, straight down the middle; it's like stomping beer cans. It is so written to you in so many ways, but yet I miss.
Rahul Maniktala (05:46):
I think what I have come to realize going from a large customer base to a single customer, it's how well you can define the processes. How well you can measure the OKRs for example, right? And that's where the operational efficiencies are derived from. Now, there will be challenges obviously, large companies have their own challenges where the spark that you mentioned, 10 to 15 million, how much ever you can processize and get the execution out of those processes is the key to success. I've seen here in the Silicon Valley. I've seen a lot of companies do that, right? That they will, when they get on their growth trajectory, they're optimizing that piece of the business, highly optimizing that.
Christopher Beall (06:36):
And why is that? Is it that the processization frees up cycles to do things that are surprising value at the margin, or allow you to exercise insights you wouldn't have the time even to have? What is it that the processization does other than the obvious, which is keeps your overhead under control and allows you to go faster or more reliably with the same resource space?
Rahul Maniktala (06:56):
You're reducing the room for errors. That's it.
Corey Frank (06:59):
There was a video I shared with the team last week to this point, Rahul and Chris. It was with Elon Musk, and maybe you saw it. He was on the ground at the launch site with Space X. And he's asked a question about design versus manufacturing, or process versus the creative. And he had said the "simplified and multiply" is one of his axioms that he's always done. But he had said that most people think the creative, right? The frenetic flailing of arms. And let's just put a bunch of stuff on the wall and let's just see what works. That testing, that's the tough part. And the manufacturing is the easier part.
And he said it's actually just the opposite. And he said, it's so low. The creative side is so low on a mathematical stale, that really it's zero. In that it doesn't matter if you can come up with this incredible Saturn 5+ type engine, if you can't manufacture it at scale and build the machines, et cetera, to do it. And it sounds like that's what you're saying is that if I'm a 10 to $50 million organization, one of the things that I shouldn't neglect is the iron clad processes in order to build those, more so than anything else at that stage, otherwise it's not going to handle my scale.
Rahul Maniktala (08:22):
Introducing editing is one thing, but the operational efficiency is another. You want to get that and you want to get there quickly.
Corey Frank (08:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Christopher Beall (08:30):
Well, I got to stop doing these podcasts and go back and work on my operational efficiencies dammit, but not right now. Right now I'm going to be creative. I'm going to have to set it on my calendar.
Rahul Maniktala (08:43):
You've created a process out of this Chris. Isn't that true?
Christopher Beall (08:47):
It's true. It's true. Actually, we accidentally created a process out of this, and we've gotten to a hundred episodes without Corey and I doing anything but what you see. Everything else is processized to the max. And thank you so much for those of you who make that happen. I really appreciate it. That's actually true. I'm kind of a process freak myself. It's kind of funny though. Cause I found many times with startups that people from larger companies will come into startups and they have zero experience with creating traction. So I don't really look at it as creative versus process. I look at it as traction leading to scale, and they want to jump to scale before they have any traction. So they've been over and over in their lives in situations where somebody else got the traction, somebody else made that product stick in the marketplace. Somebody else took that idea and determined by making it and selling it enough and changing it.
You know that they had Excel instead of Clippy, right? I mean, without that distinction being made, you can't do it a great deal on the processizing the... My mother said it well, "if something's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well." Right? And so I always took that to heart. But telling if something is worth doing or not worth doing is in the eyes of a customer, and the customer is going to make demands on you early that are peculiar to the situation, not to their problem. That is, it's one of those you are the observer in the middle of the experiment, messing around with it, by making the offer and trying to turn it into value for the customer. And you don't really know how much is you and how much is the product, and you know, trying to figure this stuff out.
So I've found often that folks will go, "you know, we've got to design for scale," and I've always said to them, "look, first, we've got to get enough traction that we can learn from our mistakes" because early on the errors are worth a lot. And later the persistence of the errors is a huge problem. And the trick to the whole thing is knowing when to go from one to the other, because you got to love the errors early and have your ears open for them in your mind open for them always. But then you got to see if you can design them out and design them away and make them go away by design not by effort. I don't know if that - you know, that must apply though. Rahul when you came into this particular job with this big, big customer, you can't have done everything right.
You must've screwed up in some ways. And there has to be that occasional evening where you just, you said to Pooja "my God, I just did something so dumb today that I don't know if I'm going to recover from it. I at least feel pretty bad about it. And I'm going to have to do something tomorrow, figure out something in order to fix it up." I'm not going to ask what that dumb thing was, or even if it was there, but what is the dumbest thing you could do? What is the category of idiocy that you could really fill nicely early on in a job like this, where you have a big portfolio and no intimacy yet? You're building the intimacy. That's like the attraction is the intimacy or vice versa.
Rahul Maniktala (12:09):
So there were many such evenings, Chris. Let me tell you that. But I think there were a few times where not having the intimacy and making certain moves and we hadn't made a lot of progress, right? So there were some internal things and there were external things, but at times I had some things more detrimental. When we could, given the complexity and given the engagement from a functional standpoint and the relationship from a B2B standpoint were all at stake.
So yeah, I do some things like emailing one of the executives really, really high up in the organization, which I shouldn't have done. And it cost me be quite a bit; but those first 18, 19 months were fun because you've got nothing to lose. We literally did not have anything to lose, but I would go back to the point you made earlier about production without traction and scale. I think the point about, when you get to that 10 million mark or 20 million mark, you have established enough traction in the marketplace. And that's when you started thinking about, "Hey, how do I scale this out? How do I processize this so I can get the efficiencies that I want." So you are absolutely right, that initial traction, trust, is very much needed before you can really talk about process or scaling.
Corey Frank (13:44):
Well I would imagine that's where your personality with sincerity, as we started this conversation out with. If you lack a semblance of EQ, emotional intelligence here, when you hit that turbulence, you can depend on the math to kind of guide you in an engineering process and a project management process. But when you're dealing with the people behind the processes, that's quite challenging. Then Chris, you certainly have some experience with that, with the flight school and dealing with turbulence. And how do you take something like that? And I think certainly that last element of the flight school certainly applies in Rahul's world, too.
Christopher Beall (14:59):
Yeah, that is interesting. I hadn't really thought of that, but it's funny. Cause we've processized something nobody had ever processized before, which is turning a regular person into a master cold caller and doing it while they make money instead of having to spend money doing it. And that the key, by the way, we made an adjustment, we moved the turbulence segment of flight school, which used to be the last two hours. We moved it into the third slot. So there's four, two hour slots: live calling, live talking to people, getting coached on the first seven seconds of the conversation for two hours, very precise. It's schematized, which I think is a key to design is you have to have a schema, and you have to have a private language of what goes in different places. All good designs talk about things that nothing else talks about in a way that nobody else could understand.
And that turbulence part was the most interesting part because we realized we had it too late. That is, the student was already experiencing the need to respond to objections. And by putting that off one more lesson, they didn't do very well in what would have been the third lesson, because they're so freaked out by the turbulence. So we had to actually process that took into account how human beings develop emotionally as they learn to do difficult things; that became part of it. This stuff is everywhere in my opinion. There's always design. That one, by the way, what happened is Donnie Crawford called me up, our flight school instructor has been a guest on our show, and he said, "Chris, I'm thinking of changing something." I said, "what's that?" And he explained why he wanted to move lesson four into lesson three, session four into session three, and kind of hesitant because I had designed it.
And that's actually, to me, the most interesting thing: when process and politics get close to each other, they tend to repel each other instead of accepting each other. Now I'll give an example, or a kind of example, right? I think everybody on the show by now believes that the theory of constraints make some sense. There is only one bottleneck: go find it, characterize it, understand its investability, know its throughput, know its cycle time, and know its quality. And then do the investment in a limited way to see whether the throughput actually increases while keeping quality constant or making it better. That's kind of like how you manage according to the theory of constraints. Nobody does it because the politics, and the politics is it says that only one part of the company is worth optimizing right now. So everybody else feels bad.
It's like, "I'm not important. Why aren't we optimizing my part?" Right? So there's a political pressure to optimize what is counterproductive to optimize. And I'm sure you must run into this all the time. Or a hole where there's folks who want attention. So you're looking at it. You look at through your client's eyes and go, "If there was just one thing, they could do it." So that's it, and we can help them do that and make all the difference. And over here is Mr. Squawky or Ms. Squawky going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what about me? What about me?" And you've got to figure out how to handle that, so that the big thing happens, and "what about me?" doesn't turn into a roadblock. I can tell you're smiling. You must run into this on occasion.
Rahul Maniktala (18:15):
That's the story of my life. It's the reality, and it's the perceived reality, right? That's where I lived. The examples that I did not get into that much detail. There have been few successes on the big items when we have been able to align on those kinds of initiatives where you can really come in and make an impact, but then there is always this day-to-day. And we have to make it off the day-to-day. There's no way we can back out of that. And I'll also add this: that doing the day-to-day right, or going back to my rules of engagement, is what helps us build that incremental credibility and furthers the trust with the customer. So when it's all done and we ask for bigger initiatives or engagement on bigger, important priorities, we have a decent shot in that.
Christopher Beall (19:16):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I'm going to jump to a completely different timeframe. So you're 10 years old. You're looking at your life, you're looking at the future. By the time you're 10, you got a pretty good idea of your skills, right? I think we all do. We're not mystified by who we are. At the age of 12 we certainly are starting to lose track of a little bit of that because we have other ambitions that might show up. At the age of 10, we're pretty good on the skills, and we often have an ambition, like I want to be at whatever, right? What did you want to be when you were 10? And how does that map onto ... cause you have fun doing what you're doing today and you're very successful.
My guess is that Rahul could buy that boat if he wanted to, but he doesn't really need a boat that big, so he buys smaller boats, or non-boats that may as well be boats. You're very successful and having fun, a rare combination, a wonderful thing. But how different or the same is this? Or what could you see in your ten-year-old mind and ambition that's playing out today, and what is it that if you told your ten-year-old self, this is what I'm doing at the age of whatever you are now, 23 or whatever. I don't know how old you are. How does that go together?
Rahul Maniktala (20:28):
What if I said to you that this is exactly what I wanted to do when I was 10 years old?
Christopher Beall (20:34):
Good God.
Rahul Maniktala (20:36):
I figured it out right when I was ten!
Christopher Beall (20:42):
All right. Well, I was told you were a freak of nature. First time we had a virtual drink together, I figured that that was probably true, but now it has been nailed down. So the lesson for everybody here is go back to your ten-year-old self, find out what that person wanted you to be. Just go be that. And you'll be as happy and successful as Rahul, unless your skills are so limited that you're going to be in a cave, eating bugs with me.
Rahul Maniktala (21:11):
When you were 10, you probably figured out the skills. See, I'm still figuring out with skills. So, that is the problem. That's what the problem is. That's why I kind of knew this is what I would be doing four decades later. So we here we are, I'm still building the skills.
Christopher Beall (21:28):
I see. I see. So the journey is forever for you? So what you are is on the journey and at ten, you knew you'd be on the journey forever pretty much. That's amazing. That's amazing. Corey, we don't run into this kind of person very often. I'm not sure we should very often. Rarity is a wonderful thing.
Corey Frank (21:47):
It is. It's like your 18-year-old Macallan there. Right? You just don't, you don't have that too often. And when you do, you just want to savor it. So with that point, let's go back to maybe not you're ten, but to Chris's point, the influences, right? A little bit more on the personal side, Rahul. What do you do to stay sharp? Are you a Ram Charan guy? Execution guy? Are you a creative guy? You fill us up. What are some of those books or those podcasts that move you to continue to explore on the journey?
Rahul Maniktala (22:22):
I am not a podcast guy. I like to talk to people. I like to watch movies, and I've always been like that. I've always been big on movies, especially Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, and then there are Indian film stars. It's always that for some reason I'm not able to disconnect from things, and movies are one thing that will make me disconnect and kind of recalibrate, rethink the things that I'm doing. And then I start connecting the dots.
Corey Frank (22:54):
Are you, can I ask, are you a middle child? Are you right in the middle as far as the birth order?
Rahul Maniktala (22:58):
I am the oldest.
Corey Frank (23:00):
You're an oldest. Okay. Very, very empathetic and creative for traditional oldest there.
Rahul Maniktala (23:08):
But to your question about Ram Charan, I'm a fan and also Jeffrey Bedford. But then I'm all about execution, do the best I can with the big picture, but I will be laser-focused on execution.
Corey Frank (23:24):
Yeah, I would imagine. Cause you probably have forecast calls like every three hours, right? So constantly calibrating, adjusting all the communications that come in cause certainly a position of big trust. When they talk about the stakes being large, the decisions you make, the emails you send or don't send to those who you should send to or not send to can have a ripple effect on not just one company's quarter, but multiple companies quarters. So when the folks get together for the class action, right, I'm sure you want to be as far away from that as possible. Shareholders are apt to try to find a villain somewhere. A lot of high stakes going on I would imagine.
Christopher Beall (24:02):
Microsoft shareholders are not looking to find any villains inside of Microsoft I can assure you. They're finding a lot of heroes, right?
Corey Frank (24:10):
Absolutely. Yes. A little different landscape [crosstalk 00:24:12].
Christopher Beall (24:12):
That is a good thing to be is a Microsoft shareholder. I know one very well, and I think it looks like a grand thing to be. I'll tell you what, I do have the luxury of walking by sometimes when Rahul and Helen are talking to each other about business. And if somebody asked me, "what are those two doing over there?" I don't listen in, I don't come and listen for the words, but you can get the tone from a distance as you're going by. I'm doing my micro prancing or whatever. And I'd say, they're seriously having fun.
They're very relaxed. It's really interesting in a game that's being played for those kinds of dollars and those kinds of stakes, how surefooted they sound. How it's serious about solving problems, but relaxed in the situation and going, "this is where we're going to do what we can." And it is very, very execution focused. And it's fascinating to me to be able to just watch and learn from the tone. So I'm impressed by it. I'm impressed by, you talk about a culture of collaboration. I didn't know very much about Microsoft from the inside, so to speak, at all. And I got to say that straight up, that culture of collaboration is real. And that's what I think might be the thing that's an absolute requirement to work successfully with these really, really big customers.
Rahul Maniktala (25:39):
I call her shared accountability with discrete ownership.
Christopher Beall (25:45):
You write that down, Corey, it goes in the book.
Corey Frank (25:48):
That's the title of the new chapter. Yeah. Is it like in essence, you just have this epiphany or that it's really like a consultancy, it's like a burying point, or a McKinsey in a lot of ways of what you're doing. You're trying to find those efficiencies. You're trying to romance the new features or ideas and a little bit of inception trying to make them the prospect's idea, even though it's maybe your idea. And that does sound very much like the machinations of the very employer McKinsey type of organization.
Rahul Maniktala (26:18):
There's a lot of internal selling that goes in what you just described. Getting what I was saying earlier, getting that alignment, it's more internal. So you can go have that kind of a conversation with the customer, not so much try, but then get that alignment on a regular basis. But it's more internal than it is with the customer.
Christopher Beall (26:45):
Well, for all of us who are looking to grow to be Microsoft size and then mature to being able to have the biggest companies in the world as our customers. And that would be far out for many folks, but I think it's great. It's great to know that there is a way of doing it, that there are things to focus on. There is a way of looking at things and executing on them that don't have to just do what I would have done, which is walk in and then walk out. You could actually proceed in that direction and know that it's okay. There's a step by step that you got a shot of getting there You've got a real shot of getting there if you can hire Rahul to be your guy at one of those.
Whoever you are on this podcast, you don't have a shot. So don't even bother to give him a call about that. Just ask him about a good whiskey and stuff like that. But I think it's fascinating. I hope our listeners have gotten a flavor of what that world is like, because it's pretty different. It's not quite Elon Musk on Mars, so to speak, but it's different enough that most of us, we could watch it. We wouldn't even know what we were watching and those rules of engagement, we'd probably miss them.
So I thank you for sharing all that with our listeners and with us. Corey and I will go off and feel dominant and significant for a while, which we're quite capable of doing. I think we have some skills there. And so just wanted to express my appreciation. Corey, what are your last thoughts?
Corey Frank (28:09):
Yeah, Rahul it's just wonderful. You're enjoying to talk to. I can imagine what you would be like with two and a half McCollins in you and maybe a bourbon and a half of the war stories. I think I'm just kind of a voyeur of these situations that happen in business and the different opportunities and the "choose your own adventure." What if I chose right here? What if I chose left? What if I went to the door? What if I jumped on the schooner, and what happens? And to have someone like you, has the best of an engineering mind and instills so in touch with the emotional mindset of your prospect, it's a very deft hand that clearly that you in a deft talent that you possess. So I really, really appreciate this. And especially for those folks who are that 10 to $50 million range.
It's a whole new skillset that is probably underutilized, under-thought of on that processing side. Great valuable stuff. For the Market Dominance Guys, we certainly appreciate it and our audience here.
Like many of our guests, Rahul, you may be asked to come back at another time, because we get a lot of requests for these episodes for folks to come back and explore different scenarios. And maybe we have a little speed round one of these days, Chris, where we get our expert panel, people like Henry or Cheryl or Mark or Rahul. And we take some questions that we've had and amassed over these almost two years of doing this thing and getting the different perceptions from someone like Rahul and his business or Henry and his business, or Cheryl, or Mark, or any of the multiple guests that we've had and put them to play. But so thank you Rahul for carving out the time. I'm sure it was a very, very busy day for you guys at Microsoft. And this is the Market Dominance Guys as we inch towards episode 100. Good to have you back, Chris, and thank you again, Rahul for the insight. Until next time, this is Corey Frank and Chris Beall.
Rahul Maniktala (29:58):
Thank you guys.
What if you only had one account to sell to? One with a $100-million budget and a quarter of a million employees? Rahul Maniktala, Microsoft’s Strategic Account Director of Semi/Hi-Tech Manufacturing has that very job. He’s today’s guest on Market Dominance Guys, and Chris Beall and Corey Frank are curious about how Rahul goes about dominating his market of one. “Behind me is the might of Microsoft,” he explains, and the culture there lends itself very well to support for their customers. In addition, Rahul’s background in technical expertise and an understanding of high-tech products, which is the basis of his customer’s business, helps him gain an understanding of what his customer wants to accomplish. After that, “[t]here are a lot of people you have to align,” Rahul explains to Chris and Corey. He always starts with the customer, employing empathy in order to understand their goals, and then works with the people at Microsoft to create an alignment of purpose between the goals of this company he works for and the goals of the customer he serves. It’s a balancing act, and one that Rahul is very adept at, as you’ll learn in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Empathy, Goals, and an Alignment of Purpose.”
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Part 2 is here Doing the Day-to-Day Right
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Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Corey Frank (01:48):
Welcome to another episode of The Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and Chris Beal, Chris it's been a while, hasn't it? I think we've had our vacations, right. All points north, east, west European and otherwise. And we finally get together. You've had a couple of solo episodes. I've had a solo episode. They're not the same, just I love Susan, but there's nothing like having Johnny Carson in his seat. You can't have the Joan Rivers and those replayed to John Davidson and the replacement homes. So it's good to have you back in the seat as always. And we have guests, which is always some of our favorite episodes as we approach the hundredth episode of The Market Dominance Guys, Chris, we're leading up to that milestone and today, right? We're raising the bar from an interesting perspective and the topic Chris, when you hit me up on this, right, is dominating a market of one.
Corey Frank (02:37):
And so we're pleased to bring on and I'll let you introduce some Chris, his background, a little bit Rahul Maniktala from Microsoft and Rahul. I apologize if I butchered your last name, but we'll just go by Rahul for now. And Rahul’s a friendly, and we're fascinated because as we talked about in the previous 95 episodes, or so the different machinations of how you dominate a market and the moving pieces and how many different variables in a closed system and an open system. And sometimes it can be probably equally challenging if you're in Rahul’s situation here, can it not Chris, where you have a market of one, you have concentration risk as the private equity folks like to call it. And how do you turn that to an advantage and how do you not screw it up? So with that, Chris, I'm going to let you introduce Rahul and how you guys started chatting about market dominance.
Chris Beall (03:29):
Yeah. So, Rahul, it's great to have you on thanks so much, Corey. Rahul And I met through my fiance, Helen Fernutchi at a bourbon tasting event online. So it was how many of us were there Rahul, like six or something like that. And we were being introduced to Kentucky bourbons by a real master. And then afterward we had a private conversation in which we didn't say anything during the event, but here's the McKellen 18. This is more along our lines.
Corey Frank (04:03):
When you switched from bourbon, to you went immediately up into the scotch realm.
Chris Beall (04:06):
Well, we went back to our native habitat, so to speak and had a nice chat about some other things. And we have talked to each other a few times since. And what fascinates me is, we've been talking about dominating markets or addressing market needs, getting into markets, not failing all sorts of stuff in the world where there are many, many, many potential folks to sell to. So the flip of that is of course, where you have a single account that's yours, but it's so big, so complex, so changing and so embedded in not just what they're doing, but in society is large. So there's a lot of things going on and being the person for that is a completely different game.
Chris Beall (04:49):
It's like being the CEO of a company who has adopted a market that happens to consist of in a way hyper verticalized. It's one company after all, it can't get much more vertical than that, but incredibly complex on the inside. And I just thought it would be really fascinating to have Rahul take us on that magical mystery tour. And first thing is Rahul, thanks so much for being on. And secondly, how the hell did you get into the business of a market of one,? What's been your life trajectory that would lead you to such a strange and wonderful place?
Rahul (05:21):
Well Chris and Corey, thank you for having me. I think you summed it up well, right? Going from bourbons to scotch right. So that's what things are. So the way I ended up in this is having that deep technical expertise and having an understanding of high-tech, which is totally steadily getting very workable verticalized, as you said on hyper verticalized. Right? So when we look at companies, or accounts that we talk about, there's a certain specific secret sauce, as we all know how they go about approaching the market, right? So that's, that's been a passion all along. Focusing on complexity and some kind of secret sauce that these companies have and understanding how they go to market. So that's what kind of led me to looking at this single customer who in itself, as you said, dominates the market.
Chris Beall (06:15):
Well, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, you must have started out as a regular person, just like the rest of us doing regular human things. It be us going out and knocking on doors and doing all the crap we do in order cold calling people or whatever. I don't know if you had to do any of that. Did you ever have to do any of that stuff? Do you ever have to, were you ever at that end of the world or did you go right from the technology side, the deep technical expertise right into, okay, so here, you've got your multi bazillion dollar account, Rahul, it's all yours go for it and try not to screw it up.
Rahul (06:46):
I think it's technology helps, but I still do cold calling. It always starts there. So technology helps ease the conversations based on what the customer wants to accomplish, but it's a mixed bag. That's how I would put it, that there are multiple variables, technology if you are operating in a high-tech type of an environment, eases the conversations, but it's not very different from what you do.
Chris Beall (07:10):
Did you start out as a technologist? Like I started out, I'm a physics math guy who fell into programming because I followed the Willie Sutton theory of business and life, which is where the money is. Right? So you Rob banks because that's where the money is. I couldn't find a lot of dollars over in physics and it appeared by my predilections and nature has likely to have children, although nowhere near as many of them as Mr. Frank has had that, not everybody can be that prolifically prodigious and prodigiously prolific, but I figured they would probably need food in their mouths and living in Denver.
Chris Beall (07:46):
So it gets a little cold there, somebody, a roof over their heads. And I went into software and finally ended up in business somewhere along the way. Cause I got sick of people not selling my stuff, frankly, I just get sick. I'd sit there and listen to that sales guy and he'd do everything wrong. And I finally just turned around and close the deal myself and go, wait, why am I paying him for what's that all about? So how about you, you, where did your path start? And then what was that moment where you went, huh? Actually selling stuff or helping customers buy stuff or whatever it is is part of the portfolio or should be part of the portfolio.
Rahul (08:19):
So very much started as a technologist. But then when I saw all this, I was doing contact centers back in the day, selling to application owners and largely selling, but more consulting. And then I was just like you, I was like, I'm making money for so many people. Why can't I make it for myself, right. So that's how I ended up letting myself take control of these things and just strung with it myself. There has been no looking back since then.
Chris Beall (08:45):
Hmm. Interesting, interesting. Corey, what are your thoughts about this strange path that some of these technologists go on you would think we would all stay in our swim lanes and be good little boys and girls writing code and stuff like that. But I mean, you've seen this once or twice.
Corey Frank (09:02):
Yeah. Especially as you look at Rahul your background, you like to stay with the small companies I noticed, right. Cisco and Microsoft. Right? So just to step above the traditional market dominance companies that Chris and I work in and consult within that journey, that career journey of yours going from product to a little bit of sales. Do you miss out on having a smaller startup kind of experience or looking at the rules that you've done knowing your background? Is it really an essence having a small company within a bigger company and that's the way that you've approached it and why you've been so successful?
Rahul (09:40):
I think it's a combination. There is no doubt about missing the agility in smaller companies. I've been in smaller companies and things get turned around very quickly. But I think that is the beauty of working in the big machine where you, when you have large customers that you're operating with the demands are very silo so you can tap into, on your end, you can tap into those smaller operations and bring the best out for your customer. So there are elements that I do not like on days. Like today's one of them, but for the most part there's a lot of resources. If you know how to navigate on both sides, the customer side, and your side.
Corey Frank (11:06):
So let's talk about that concentration risk, right? I mean, if you're, if we're an investor, right, Chris, you and I and private equity and the venture side, and we look at an organization and you say, wait a minute, you're spending all of your time, all of your resources, a lot of your capital at the risk of having one client of yours say, Hey, I want to go a different direction or the leverage they have over, Hey, listen, you got to do better on your prices or the leverage they have on Rahul and you're not as handsome as you once was. I prefer a more handsome person to take over our, whatever the whim of the prospect. How do you deal with that when there is one client and there are certain multiple constituencies yourself, but that's what I'm curious about. Never having a situation like that from a market dominance perspective of just one client that you serve.
Rahul (11:58):
So that's an interesting question and that in the past, I've had experience with managing a territory where you have multiple customers and then you come to a single customer, it's a territory of its own. Right? So yeah, I mean, I can't change the reasoning if they need a more handsome guy, but then if there are areas, so I would always start with the customer and work backward, right? That's the logic. So when I gave you the example of, Hey, there are many operational silos that I'm dealing with on both sides. I'm trying to bring the best from everywhere to my customer. It could be one customer. It could be multiple customers. The beauty of one customer is that I know things inside out and I'm operating with that sense of urgency where I'm delivering to various needs.
Rahul (12:45):
There could be an invoicing issue in the modeling and executive meeting in the afternoon, and then doing a deal in the evening. So it's like juggling multiple balls, but you know, compare that to multiple customers. I had when I came to Microsoft, I had about 65 customers that you, just from the whole off Bay Area, but that time you got to pick and choose, right? Where am I going to focus on this common knowledge? So it's the same, it's the same, there are so many things going on at every given time.
Corey Frank (13:15):
Sure. And the level of intimacy you must have in that operation to know how the stock price is going and how everybody's feeling about their options to that with the latest super of the day is on Tuesday in the cafeteria, in Santa Clara versus Oregon, I would imagine. So there is a level of familiarity that you have to be beyond just a traditional vendor. When you have one client,
Rahul (13:41):
You have to have that sixth sense. That's the key, right? Common sense is not common. So the intimacy piece is critical. You are absolutely right. You got to know. You got to know it inside out and to your earlier point or question when you are approaching those areas in a single customer, you have to keep in mind all that impacts on the broader relationship or the intimacy piece.
Chris Beall (14:08):
Well, there's one thing that strikes me. I've been around big companies, little companies, I worked for a couple of big ones and I've sold to some big ones since not exactly like you do Rahul and that it was a single product being sold into a big company, maybe in an OEM setting or something like that. You don't have a single product. You've got a wide range of offerings. They're evolving over time. Each one has its own set of resources back inside of Microsoft that can help you or could choose not to help you, right. I get the sense you have to sell to them in order to get their attention on something. And you have to be careful not to cry Wolf too often, or you will be ignored. So the false positive problem is they're on both sides of the business.
Chris Beall (14:56):
Whereas like I remember when I was telling to SAP and it was an OEM deal, I didn't have any real complexity other than what's going on inside of SAP. And what was their go-to market that was around the internet at the time. So it was really very simple. I found it simplifying. I didn't have to pick and choose. All I had to do was be real intimate. The way I did it, by the way, was I sat at their headquarters for 37 consecutive days in the lunchroom until I found somebody who would talk to me about something interesting and kind of move from there. But you have this thing that's really complex. And what's interesting to me is I've thought about like, I always think what if I had that job, right? So if somebody threw me into Rahul's job, I know what I would do.
Chris Beall (15:37):
I'd quit and I'd quit immediately because I know I don't have a chance. Cause here I am, I've got this big customer with all this internal complexity and personalities and all that. Then I've got my own company with all of its products and they're trying to get me to sell some things more than other things that I might be able to understand that then I have all these people, they got to help me by be six or 700 of them floating around somewhere and I get to know them. And then I got a number in front of me. So I got to go make the numbers somehow and still serve the customer. So my thing would have been, I just go, okay. That was really great. I'm so glad that I know how to eat bugs because I'm going to sit in a cave and eat bugs for the rest of my life.
Chris Beall (16:16):
Cause that's all, that's all I can afford to do. But you did this. So I imagine I can almost imagine doing your job. I can't imagine learning to do your job because I don't imagine you were given a lot of slack in the learning part that was specific to the customer and specific to all of the stuff that's going on behind the scenes, on your side, all those people you have to sell to and Marshall and get to do things.
Chris Beall (16:45):
And then this is something I don't know. If all of our listeners know about big companies, but here's a fact, a big company, life, big markets, never reorganized. They never do. They do not undergo cataclysmic changes. If you have a big market, it behaves as a big statistical entity. And even when something like COVID comes along, it might change a bunch like, Hey, I sell into the airlines. Look what happened last year. Right? But they don't reorganize. Big companies always reorganize. And those reorganizations can be fraught with peril for the sales guy. How did you get started? Like you walk in the door, why didn't you quit? Like a rational person would have done. I mean, I would have left. I'm a brave guy. Why didn't you?
Rahul (17:35):
I spend quite a bit of time at Microsoft. And I think the culture lends itself really well to support and align with working with such a large customer. Now the customer story is very much in line with what you were saying, but I think the time I came to Microsoft and how things got realigned and readjusted from a budget shift standpoint. It Was very helpful. And it's a bunch of collaboration simply put, yes, there is always competing priorities. There are a lot of people you have to align and all that stuff. But like I said to Cody earlier, always start with the customer and have that goal. And then people start aligning.
Rahul (18:13):
Now you will, absolutely. Right. When I came in and did the sole customer side, however, was very different from where it is today. It's definitely in a better shape. It can be better. It's getting better. But at that point I was one one-man-band man. And I had to be like, how do I turn this out? But I knew that behind me is the might of Microsoft. So I just had to use my ADHD skills, how to best align people towards a common objective that the customer had, which kind of took me about 18, 19 months to get there. It's a function of time.
Chris Beall (18:49):
Okay. So, during those 18 or 19 months, this is like a startup going out and trying to find product-market fit. Now you're the product, right? And here's your market. And you got to find out where you fit in there to be helpful to them? So what was the very first thing that you did, was it to study them and understand them? Was it to just start interacting and following the breadcrumbs? What did you actually do on day one, day two, day three that allowed you not to have to turn around and go, there's got to be easier work than this with a higher probability of success.
Rahul (19:23):
It was hard to work for starters that's what I would say. So I did my homework prior to signing up for the rules. A lot of research, lot of external research, lot of internal research on where things were. But then I started interacting with this from day one. Like not necessarily looking for the breadcrumbs, but looking for what is the expectation of the relationship between the two big corporations, right. At least my piece of business. So once I started to get an understanding of what the outcomes were. Started alining the team accordingly and started working on some key negotiations that were going to get us where we needed to get.
Chris Beall (20:06):
That is one thing you had, which is you have the momentum of the relationship itself. I mean, after all your customer, it's kind of obliged in a way to buy some stuff from Microsoft as are we all, I'm looking at my Surface Pro right here while I have Microsoft software all over this thing. Probably some of it, I know some of it, I don't know. So there's momentum at least. And there's-
Rahul (20:25):
I wouldn't call it momentum. The relationship is one of the oldest in the industry. But it wasn't necessarily at a pretty point. It wasn't where things were automatically propelled and things would start falling in place. That wasn't the case. It was the other way around. Right. So you had to literally build stuff from the ground up.
Chris Beall (20:46):
Oh wow, I surely would have left. Corey what do you think about this? [crosstalk 00:20:51]
Rahul (20:55):
It's really something from the ground up is a lot more fun than inheriting something and running with it. I've been there, but this has always been fun. I mean, repair is one aspect, but the joy that you get when things come too close, it's very different.
Corey Frank (21:10):
I was just saying that Chris would have left. I would have hidden and then they find out and then they escort me out the building that's generally when I go through it's an ugly scene. But talk about that another episode. So when you look at the basic tenants, the building blocks, we have these episodes Rahul. We often talk about kind of the key tenants. If you're a sales rep and you're approaching the beginnings of a new market, right? You need a script and you need tenacity and empathy. You need timing. You need a list. You need these things. If you were to train a big, dumb farm animal like me to come in and apprentice under you to what are the two tablets coming down the mountain that according to Rahul, that I need to have in order to at least have a semblance of hope of success to do what you're doing.
Rahul (22:01):
I think the two things would be empathy and goals. Empathy from a customer standpoint where the relationship has been, what they are experiencing, where they want to go and goals are yours, which goes back to my point, that I mentioned to Chris, that before I took the role, I identified my goal based on my research, internal and external. And when I came to the customer, I leaned in with empathy to understand what they want to accomplish. And then it was just an alignment exercise.
Chris Beall (22:30):
So simple, an alignment exercise. I'm in now.
Corey Frank (22:38):
But the identity that you have Rahul do you see yourself as a I'm sure there's elements that every day you probably have pieces of this, but are you a project manager? Are you a politician? Are you a sales guy? Are you a product marketer all day? Probably depends on the day, but again, how do you qualify what you do and where you need to spend a little bit more time that maybe people don't assume that you need that more. For instance, the empathy side of it. It's not just about pushing a bunch of Gantt charts or project management plans down to the appropriate folks as a traffic cop, correct?
Rahul (23:14):
No, it's not, it's not, it's what I call active listening or aggressive listening. That's where things open up when you're sitting down with the customer. But I think of all the four or five things that you described, you have to, you really have to be a politician, right? You have to be able to connect the dots, right? And then you have to do it on both sides. You have to, like I said, the understanding of customer goals is key, but in a bigger relationship, what it is, is what drives everything, right? On both sides, you have to budget time that you're your own one-on-one time. But you're thinking about the customer, thinking about what you're saying and how you're landing, that's where most of the time is spent.
Corey Frank (23:55):
Do you see yourself as this politician or someone who maybe the mothership Microsoft says, you know, Rahul, we need to reign you in. We think that you're a little too sympathetic to the client as opposed to being empathetic to their needs. And remember who signs the front of your check in certain situations, cause I'd fall in love. I would just be sucked in by my clients so much and right. Probably forget whose buttering my bread and a lot of degrees, but hey, do you want this feature, this feature, this feature let's, we can do that and then realize that I got to be a politician in my own house here too.
Rahul (24:31):
I mean, it's an interesting question, but it's a balancing act. Sometimes I do get there, right? Instead of empathy, it gets very sympathetic, right? And then you have to pull yourself out because of the relationship and the overall responsibility and to your point, who writes my paycheck, right? So that's all it's there. But I think as long as you're doing right by the customer things work out, things fall in place, that's been my experience.
Corey Frank (24:57):
So Chris, from a market dominance perspective, probably two and a half bourbons and one Macallan as you and Rahul were speaking and knowing is what you do about market dominance. What was so intriguing that you think a lot of our other listeners on more of a traditional market dominance who have multiple clients, multiple prospects, large Tams can learn from Rahul that surprised you.
Chris Beall (25:20):
I think it's always one of those, What's the same and what's different? kind of things. So in a traditional market tech market, especially. The key is to first of all, to know your market, which is at the very least a list, much more of a list than a description, but it's a list of folks that have no moving parts between them there. That is their relationship is essentially independent except for one thing. And that is each company on that list is if you sell to them, going to reduce the cost and the risk of selling to every other company on that list, that's the kind of the definition of a classic market. And so what I'm curious about that, what stays the same and what's different. That is what is the importance in having a market of one where you can make a list, right?
Chris Beall (26:09):
You can make a list of all the different parts of the business and who services them because they have their own internal service capabilities. They have a CIO and that person’s taking care of all sorts of things and so forth. So you can certainly map it out and make a list of people, but they actually have functional relationships to each other, which I think is fascinating because there are no functional relationships between the entities you're trying to sell to in a traditional market. Other than this weird one, which is they each have some confidence in the other guy, if other guy go first. It's like, all the lemmings are standing at the edge of the cliff. If one of them is just brave enough to jump into the ocean. So you kind of keep flicking them, right. And you get one of them to go.
Chris Beall (26:52):
But then that second lemon kind of goes, Hey, this ain't bad. I'll go to, and that's your job is to get all the lemmings into the water. So you can, I don't know what you do with lemmings in the water. You follow them in and have lemming stew or something like that. Rahul's world is both the same and different. I'm guessing. So here's what I think might be the same. I'm going to throw a hypothesis out there, your big client. How big are they by the way, how many people and how many, how many people do you care about in there that you have to interact with them, then how many dollars are involved in their business?
Rahul (27:22):
I mean, it's close to about a quarter of a million people and close to about a hundred million dollars.
Chris Beall (27:31):
So you need to identify, I think this part's the same. You've got to identify the people who count to you. And I bet you have a list. Right. You know, everybody at any given point that you're sure counts.
Rahul (27:43):
I know most of them, but I have a big team, right. So I got to, like I said, to go to and prioritize and yes, for the most part.
Chris Beall (27:54):
Yeah, you got to, I mean, you can't say, oh, I just come in every day and start randomly interacting with people at that doesn't work. So you kind of know who's who you, you know something else which is, I think interesting. I think there's an analog. So when, when we make a sale into a market, like I was talking to a gentleman today, CEO, founder of a company that's just made a big pivot and they need to get 20 customers by the end of the year in order to get funding. Right? So their market has actually got two elements to it. One is the market of customers and the other is the market of VCs. And in order to make the market of VCs comfortable enough to go to the next level with them, they need to get themselves some more customers. That's what they think.
Chris Beall (28:39):
And they've just done this pivot. So they've got to go through this process of looking at the whole market and talking to maybe 500 people and getting it down to these 10 additional that are going to buy from them. So they know that functional relationship is pretty much if I sell to you, this one's more likely to buy. And then the relationship with the VC is if I sell the 10, then this one's more likely to write me a check, right? You, it seems to me, you face it additional dimension beyond internal reference ability. And that is, I bet that I'm going to take a guess. Sometimes you've got to decide, I want this to happen next. So that this person over here will be appropriately influenced by the fact that this happened over here into somewhat independently or connected to your customer's business they're trying to run and having something to do with knowledge that you have of the functional or trust connections or whatever, among the people inside. It's almost like the people or the companies. That's what it kind of feels like to me. It that kind of close.
Rahul (29:47):
That's yeah. I mean, that's, that's what it is. People are the company. I mean, I'm not interacting with the entire 250,000 people. I got a few and there are to your point about the functional relationship there are many. And there are times where I need certain things to happen. And I just have to the point earlier about making those connections and to some extent influencing them or getting information that helps and then just ride.
Chris Beall (30:21):
So do you often know something that one person in that big company would like to know that they don't know that you know, from somewhere else in there and you have to decide what to do with that information.
Rahul (30:30):
Once in a while. [crosstalk 00:30:37] The more time you put in the more frequent that gets.
Chris Beall (30:45):
It's like getting lucky because you, the harder I work, the luckier I get, right.
Corey Frank (30:51):
By the way, for the audience, before we started recording, we asked Rahul. So there's going to be some questions we're going to ask. And based off of the nature of the sensitivity of the relationship, right? He can politely differ or politely obfuscate. So putting them on the spot and he's very elegantly deflecting here and there, I would imagine. So to Chris's point Rahul, if you had, take the antithesis that if you wanted to really boost production value delivery results, how do you go about doing that? If you said, listen, we need a 40-yard pass, right? This is, this is Corey. The small mid-sized guy speaking, right? The naivete of the larger organization, particularly two large organizations, but I'm sure there are certain times where you got to think where's the 40-yard pass downfield here. That if all of the moons were in alignment, if you could really get everything in place could really make more than a couple of basis points. Difference. Talk a little about some of those processes maybe that you would go through or those project plans, ideas, collaborations that maybe you've done in the past.
Rahul (32:00):
I call it rules of engagement. You have to follow all of them. There is no exception. Once you're following the rules of engagement and the relationships are in place. Not a lot of them are very specific to the question you asked, I think all the chips fall in place and that's were we have seen success. I would say a few times now in the last, maybe three years, that's how things have been. So I never, like I said, you know the political piece. So I never tried to mess things up there, but I stayed focused on the guardrails and align the team in that manner. So we're not breaking any rules. And as long as you're doing that, and then you're connecting the dots from a relationship standpoint, big things happen.
Corey Frank (32:51):
Got it.
Rahul (32:52):
That's generally not such a large relationship where you're working with a pharma customer in the past, and it was like a pharmaceutical distribution. It was very similar. It was a distributed environment where they work in now is a very centralized environment where, but the rules of engagements, we're still kind of defining how you go back.
Chris Beall (33:18):
Oh, that's really interesting. I would make the distinction between physics and chemistry so we can all learn physics, right? Cause it's simple. It's only four forces in nature and you throw in a little geometry and you're pretty much there, but in the world of chemistry, you have to know what goes with what, in what environments and under what conditions. And you have to respect that it's going to do what it's going to do.
Chris Beall (33:40):
And if you don't know, you can have bad experiences. Right. I think the phrase blow up in your face, came out of the chem lab, not out of physics lab. I'm pretty sure. So that's what it sounds like a big part of this kind of market work is knowing what those rules are, what goes with what, what you can rely on, I suppose, is that, I mean, there must be some things that would freak me out, but you'd just go, no, no, no, no, no. This is going to be kind of what happens next, because in a way it's kind of like this bonds to that, and that happens next and you dumb physicist. You'll just think they're bouncing around, but actually they hook up and these things happen next is that kind of what it's like?
Rahul (34:20):
It is. So what goes with what is the rules of engagement, right. And then you are connecting the dots, which is more of the relationship piece. And then you go in with conviction that I know this is what's going to happen next. As long as we have done these things, right? Things would fall in place.
How do you improve your cold calling skills if your present company isn’t providing any sales training? Train yourself! Until you can get with the right company, borrow ideas from the best sales experts you can find (many have been guests on this podcast), take improv classes, join Toastmasters, and keep your mind open to absorb what works. Our Market Dominance Guy Corey Frank is talking in more depth about training yourself during this second part of his conversation with Susan Finch, president of Funnel Media and Funnel Radio. He advises listeners that salespeople should fall in love with their craft — not the product they’re selling. How do you do that? Care about the potential value of the meeting for your prospect and remember the “why” of what you’re doing. And what skills should you hone? Learn what moves prospects to make a decision, create a well-written script and adhere exactly to it, use the tone of voice that elicits the response you want, and most importantly, leave your own mood and ego behind when you make a cold call. Train yourself to remember that it’s not about you. When you place a call, it’s showtime!
Listen to the first half of this interview here:
Are You Laying Brick, or Making $12 an Hour? ----more----
Here's the complete transcript for this episode:
Susan Finch (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists, and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Susan Finch (00:35):
How do you improve your cold calling skills if your present company isn't providing any sales training? Train yourself. Until you can get with the right company, borrow ideas from the best sales experts you can find. Many have been guests on this podcast. Take improv classes, join Toastmasters, and keep your mind open to absorb what works.
Susan Finch (00:55):
Our Market Dominance Guy, Corey Frank, is talking in more depth about training yourself during the second part of his conversation with me, Susan Finch, from Funnel Radio. He advises listeners that salespeople should fall in love with their craft, not the product they're selling. How do you do that? Care about the potential value of the meeting for your prospect and remember the why of what you're doing. And what skills should you hone? Learn what moves prospects to make a decision. Create a well-written script and adhere exactly to it. Use the tone of voice that elicits the response you want. And most importantly, leave your own mood and ego behind when you make a cold call. Train yourself to remember that it's not about you when you place that call. It's showtime. Listen to this episode of Market Dominance Guys. Not getting trained? Train yourself.
Susan Finch (02:00):
And in my own business, in the podcasting, I've watched the weasels and the people that hide, "Oh, it costs this much." Why? Why is it nine times as much as I charge? "Oh, because we do this." Is that nobody cares about that. Why is that so expensive? When, what's the benefit for the people you're promoting? If I don't make you guys look good, and help you grow, and give you confidence, you can speak better everywhere you go, I am failing.
Corey Frank (02:26):
Sure. Well, you have though, sales folks. It doesn't matter if they're experienced or new, but certainly, it's more common in newer folks. It's common in more mediocre folks who just go from job to job, to job, and you see their LinkedIn kind of stack up, is that they have a tough time introducing that tension that we were talking about because again, the need to be liked, the need to be accepted. And I think that leads them down a path, if they value supplication too much in the denominator that it's going to cause them to over-promise maybe a product delivery, a product feature, add in things that they know they can't deliver on. It's almost as if I would ... I wouldn't question anybody's necessarily ethics, but it's the root of, publicly people see it as dishonorable. Internally, I think that starts and it manifests into that dishonor because of a need for approval more than anything else. Would you agree with that? Or is it ...
Susan Finch (03:23):
I would agree with that, but I'm wondering, not everybody is this familiar with Orin as they should be, or you and Chris. Can you give us an example of building that tension with those four elements in there?
Corey Frank (03:37):
Well, it's an easy way. Now, this has to be delivered with the deft sense of humor and self-deprecation. But let's say we have a meeting scheduled Susan, and it's you, and it's your VP of sales, and it's your CEO, and you're my product champion. But, two or three other people, executives are supposed to show up for the demo. And you show up, of course, you're my champion, but the others do not. Or the CEO doesn't. Whoever is that stakeholder that I really need, that I was implying was going to be at this meeting, doesn't show up. It's 11 o'clock. It's 11:01, it's 11:02, it's 11:03. And Orin is famous for, let's say they show up about 11:04, then make an entrance. Now, incredibly disrespectful for the other folks who are on the line. I know they're busy. They're executives as are, but no busier than other folks.
Corey Frank (04:25):
Orin's way to introduce tension, as one of many example is, Susan comes on and, "Oh, Susan, you must be here for the 11:04 meeting." Right? Now, that little bit of tension. Now I can't say, "Susan, what, are you here for the 11:04?" I have to flirt with that. And I usually have to follow up with a little bit of self-deprecation to say that, "I don't take myself seriously," but sometimes that's enough to say, okay. And then usually nine times out of 10, they'll say, "Oh, I'm sorry. I was tied up," and that's all you want. Just to say ...
Corey Frank (04:58):
And people who start off meetings with say, "Susan, Chris, Henry, so glad you guys could carve out this time. I really appreciate, I know how busy you guys are. I really think that this is going to be something you're going to be excited about. I really appreciate you," and it's like, whoa, your status is diminishing, diminishing, diminishing. And that's going to be a little bit tougher if I start to introduce tension after I'm the nice guy, over the top, trying to build rapport, asking about your favorite sports team and your weekend. And then at the end of the call, I try to introduce some tension by, "The price goes up on Monday," close, or, "We're really busy." And, trying to squeeze you into a decision. That's the wrong place to use tension because it's so transparent, right? And so the right place to use tension is generally out of the gate when you're starting that initial banter back and forth.
Corey Frank (05:59):
Example two, similar to that is, Susan, we all show up, we're waiting for Chris. It's 11:03, 11:04. And I say, "Listen, I tell you what, it's 11:04. Let's go ahead and get started." And you may say, "Well, can we give Chris another minute or two?" Or, "He's coming." And I would say right, as opposed to, "Oh sure. No problem." And then you talk small talk, waiting, right? Instead, say, "I'll tell you what, Chris seems like a smart guy. He can play catch-up. Let's get started." Now I say it with a smile, but immediately my status goes up like, "Hey, listen, this isn't a vendor. This is somebody who has something critical to say." So those are two ways to kind of introduce tension into, subtle tension into the sales practice.
Susan Finch (06:48):
But, I do appreciate that. The other thing that you did with that, the 11:04 meeting. You've said, "I was on time. I'm just the same level you are. You are no high and mighty, extra busy person. Because I'm equal with you, I can poke you a little bit. We can play a little bit. Because I don't have to be afraid of you."
Corey Frank (07:10):
That's right.
Susan Finch (07:11):
"Because I'm no less than you." And that's what Cheryl Turner does.
Corey Frank (07:15):
She's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I think Chris gives her the crown of the best cool caller in the world. And I would really put the onus on anybody to try to take that title away from her. Because, but it is just that, right, Susan? It is that, her status. In a pitch anything world, right? I have true status alignment. And that is something that is also worked on here. We're better at it today than we were yesterday. And we'll be better at it tomorrow than we are today at coaching on it because you have a lot of stuff that goes on in the life of a younger grad, certainly, besides what's on the mindset of a CEO for hitting P&L, and numbers, and finances, and raising money, et cetera.
Corey Frank (07:57):
And so, tone changes daily based off of what happened in their life. Did they lose that Call of Duty? Did their dog crap on their carpet? Did they get their first student loan payment? Are they anxious about their roommates? Whatever it is, did their Bitcoin kind of plummet? And so, they may read the same screenplay, but they may not perform it at an Academy Award level every single day. And I think that's one thing that Cheryl does is, she's the modern-day equivalent of the Iceman. Remember from Top Gun, and Val Kilmer became, his name was the Iceman because he waited for the other person to make a mistake. He flew ice-cold. Cheryl certainly has a great personality, outsized personality, but she does not make mistakes in the pieces that normally costs other people conversions, right? It's consistent. It's amazing.
Susan Finch (08:52):
I truly believe salespeople, if you guys have some extra time, at the very least read a book on improv.
Corey Frank (09:00):
That's a great one.
Susan Finch (09:01):
Join Toastmasters, because you will learn many things, including how to listen and shut up. And if you can read the book on improv, see if there's a way, those of you in LA, even up here in Portland, we can take improv classes and it's mainly to get us to look for those openings.
Susan Finch (09:24):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
Susan Finch (09:33):
Connect and Sell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. Give your fingers a rest. With Connect and Sell's patented technology, you'll load your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every single day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing how many tears were shed while watching Titanic kind of qualified.
Susan Finch (10:00):
And we're back. Those are additional training skills. If you're not going to get trained properly by whomever you're working for, get trained for the next better position you're going to get, working for somebody that will appreciate what you're bringing, because sometimes that's all we're doing is biding time, until we can get to the right company.
Corey Frank (10:18):
Yeah. There's a lot of folks that are in this coma of complacency and they're just kind of live in this world, like a ship without a rudder, drifting from port to port. Hoping that trade winds will have them go into a port of prosperity or something, biding time. And so when we see that, because it happens, right? People get into a rut, and I think the French word for rut is routine. So, when people get into that comfort flow, we try to do is remind them again of their why. And, one of the bits we do here pretty often with newer folks is that imagine you're in the cast of Cats or Hamilton, you're on Broadway. In this, let's take Cats. It's been on Broadway for like what, 28 years or something like that. Right?
Corey Frank (11:03):
And there's a little old lady. She's in Mission, Kansas. Outside Mission, Kansas. And she's a widow and she's always wanted to see Cats on Broadway. She lives in mission Kansas, but she saves her egg money. People buy eggs on the side of the road, and vegetables, and a little firewood here and there. And she saves up all her pennies, and nickels, and dimes. And she gets enough to get a bus ticket, to take her from Mission, Kansas to New York City. And the only ticket she can afford is a Tuesday afternoon matinee, not a Friday night performance when all the stars are in the house. And she can't afford a seat down, she's got way up in the top of the mezzanine, right? I mean, it takes her a while to get up the stairs, but she's up there. And here it is Tuesday at two o'clock. She's clutching her purse and her ticket. And she's just giddy.
Corey Frank (11:45):
She has been waiting for this for 28 years. Tuesday performance. Now those performers at Cats, they're backstage, they're probably out in the alley kind of smoking it. They've done this a thousand times. The bell rings like, "Okay, we got to go, okay? Let's get into character." If you're a professional, when that bell rings and that curtain goes up, it is as if it's opening night. Is as if it is an Oscar-worthy performance recorded by HBO, because you always have to think that there's a little old lady up in the rafters who saved everything. If we can kind of get in that mindset, when we feel like we're in a routine, to shake us and say, "Wait, it's not about me." That, as you had said at the outset, Susan, right? It's there's an honor. There's a selflessness.
Corey Frank (12:31):
I just got back from a European trip with my son. And one of the places we went to, was going to Notre Dame Cathedral, and we saw, you could see it was burned. But, when you see that, that place started architecturally, right, 350 years in the making. That the architect's sons, sons, sons, son would barely live to see it completed, you start to see that Europe is full of these. The Colosseum in Rome, the Vatican, these mammoth projects that it's not necessarily about me. I got to be, build a cathedral. Can I make sure everything's in the right place? If it's the selfie generation, it's only about me, and me, and my comp plan. Then chances are, is we're not going to see too many cathedrals built in our lifetime.
Corey Frank (13:19):
So that's why I think when you look at the shows that you do, and that Funnel Media does, right? If there's one connective tissue that lives through all of them, it is professionals by professionals, true master craftsmen of their performing art, whether it be sales or whether it be the med-tech or any of the other shows that Funnel Media Group produces. And I don't think that if you're a new lead graduated, or even if you're five, six, seven, 10 years in, you can get enough of that in your life.
Susan Finch (13:50):
That's the community. Since we are all virtual, choose what you put in your head, choose what to surround yourself with. Do we want to surround ourselves with the negative, the bashing of this and then that, or would you rather surround ourselves with people that have done it way better than us for a very long time, and that everybody respects? Wouldn't you want to bring that into your heart, into your head, into your ears, whatever it is, because something's going to stick?
Corey Frank (14:21):
A mentor of mine called it, "I paid your stupid tax for you. All my mistakes, all the residue from my stupid decisions. I paid your stupid tax, so you don't have to pay it again. So just open up your eyes and your ears once in a while, humble yourself, and know that somebody else paid the dollars that makes your life and your job a little bit easier today."
Susan Finch (14:43):
Right? You talk about the common thread between all the shows that Funnel produces. It's deeper than ... Yeah, it's professionals and you guys all have a ton of experience, and I've learned so much from all of you. My husband, he says, "You're so myopic. All you do is listen to your guys," and I don't have any more time. So at least I have the good ones with me. But the deeper thing that all of you have in common, no matter your creed, your faith, your nationality, it doesn't even matter. You all have a servant's heart. Every one of you. There isn't one host in this group out of the 15 shows we produce currently that does not have a servant's heart and is not humble.
Corey Frank (15:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Finch (15:28):
It's huge.
Corey Frank (15:29):
Yeah. Absolutely. So, a testament, I think, to how you sold art. You attract that. One of the quotes that Orin says quite often is, "By the work, you shall know the workman."
Susan Finch (15:41):
Yes.
Corey Frank (15:41):
And by the Funnel Media Group, you know everything there is to know about your designers, and your audio techs, and your producers, and your hosts, and everything else. And, I think that's a testament, but that's really how Chris and I got together on Market Dominance Guys is I would call him. I've known Chris for 15 years, 20 years, almost 20 years. And I would call him periodically, always hat in hand, always a finger away from hitting record because I had a problem. And Chris would pick up in an airport, he'd pick up on his vacation, he'd pick up on a boat. He would always pick up. And that's what a dear humble person he is, to always give back.
Corey Frank (16:20):
I never got an invoice unless I became a client of his, then I got big invoices. But I never got an invoice for that. And I think that sets the tone of why a company like Connect and Sell, right? The fish stinks from the head down, and the opposite is also true. We got people like Cheryl and we've had a lot of his top dogs on this show, haven't we?
Susan Finch (16:36):
Yep.
Corey Frank (16:37):
Mark, and, it's a testament, I think, to not only what Chris does, but what Funnel Media does and the type of talent that they attract.
Susan Finch (16:43):
Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
Corey Frank (16:45):
Of course. Of course.
Susan Finch (16:46):
I mean, it's a joy. So, as a company that has helped to build and be part of this Branch 49 and this whole program at GCU, what would you put out there as a challenge to other companies, especially those that want quality salespeople in their future? What's their part then to ensure that without just vetting people to hire them, how do we get them down that path in the first place so that they are somebody we want to hire?
Corey Frank (17:14):
I think if we go back to your example of when you worked in the art gallery, you learn to appreciate art because you knew what the story was. And you knew that the artist laid bare his soul emotionally and manifested in the form of all these colors in this piece of canvas? You understood that creative process enough to convey that sense of emotion to the buyer and that connection was made, and then that sale was made. But you understood bio-physiology probably subconsciously before you knew it and studied why people do what they do. And I think for most employers or organizations today, is if you have a complacent sales organization or sales organizations that stop growing, or it's only growing because of market factors, not because of development factors, is how can you get your team to fall in love with their craft? Not necessarily what their product. That's going to come, but they fall in love with their craft? The nuances of voice, and tone, and pacing. The creative aspects of writing a screenplay with the right sequencing moves people.
Corey Frank (18:24):
Marvel is Marvel today because of Kevin Feige and because of the writers, but the consistent story journey, a reluctant hero who has a trait that he sees, or she sees as an asset, but it's really a liability. Pride cometh before the fall. Takes out their legs. They're rock bottom. A guide comes, appears. Helps them realize that no, what they saw as their liability is really their asset. And then they save the world, right? But that's, as you know, from being too, that's the cosmic addict cycle, that Joseph Campbell stuff that, we are-
Susan Finch (19:03):
A hero's journey.
Corey Frank (19:04):
We're tuned into that frequency, right? That's kind of the vicar inside of us, for thousands of Aboriginal cultures have the same narrative arc. And I think once you understand that as a sales rep and realize, "Wow, I don't have to wing it. I can actually have a system that doesn't sound like a system." And there are too many folks who put you into a system, but they don't tell you the why the system, the anatomy of what happens when I say this with this tone, versus this with this tone. And you see the reaction in your prospects, and then it gets addicting.
Corey Frank (19:38):
But it all comes down to breaking down the story craft, as you had mentioned, the bio-physiology of why people buy, not buy. How they're moved emotionally. The story of the little old lady. Knowing that, okay, if they can do that versus pitching a product, any organization will reap the benefits. And everyone's going to have a hell of a lot more fun, right? They're going to be smiling and building more cathedrals and saving men's souls, more than just laying brick.
Susan Finch (20:03):
I think that's a great way to end this episode.
Corey Frank (20:06):
Beautiful. Well, listen, I appreciate what you do, Susan. You're so awesome. And as we said, at the beginning of this here, we've got to put it into our contract for Market Dominance Guys that we get at least one dedicated episode where we can do all the talking. And certainly, I can do my share of talking and as opposed to just Chris and all of our wonderful guests, so.
Susan Finch (20:25):
Be sure to subscribe, everybody. Find Market Dominance Guys on all your favorite podcast venues. You will find them also where you start, you'll see some of the extracts and our highlights over on YouTube, on the Connect and Sell channel, and you can find them on the Funnel Media Group. So, we are everywhere. Just look for Market Dominance Guys. Get in there, subscribe, start from the beginning if you want to go on this journey, or pick and choose based on the title.
Susan Finch (20:47):
Thanks so much, Corey, it was a pleasure, and welcome home. You've been missed.
Susan Finch (20:56):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern and innovative sales and scripting toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com.
Susan Finch (21:26):
Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
What good is a salesperson with five years' experience if they've never been trained and have a hopscotch career of many short stops at companies that never invested in training their sales teams? Corey tells the old story, "A guy walks past a construction site and sees five people laying brick. And he goes to the first guy and says, "Hey, what are you doing?" He's like, "Building a wall." Goes to the second guy, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Making 12 bucks an hour." Listen to the rest as Corey Frank and Susan Finch, president of Funnel Media Group and Funnel Radio, go on without Chris Beall this week and talk about the concept behind Branch49, a sales acceleration software and service that uses AI to score leads based on their preferred contact channels, while also dedicating a sales team to perform top-of-funnel and full-stack revenue generation. They discuss the obligation that companies have to ensure sales professionals are trained correctly and with the good of the prospect and customer at the forefront, how to undo bad sales habits, and how to help sales professionals who were never trained prepare to work for honorable companies who value sales skills. This is part one of a two-part interview.
----more----
Part two of this interview is here:
Not Getting Trained? Train Yourself! Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Susan Finch (01:17):
This week on Market Dominance Guys, I'm joined by Corey Frank. Chris is off busy doing something and I'm sure we will catch up with him later, but Corey and I wanted to dive into the topic of our responsibility to help bring up honorable, terrific, trained, competent, confident, and enjoyable salespeople. How do we do that? You're going to have to listen to this episode for some great suggestions, what you needed to be aware of and how you can start to have a better sales team, not only for now, but for the future. Join us for this episode, Keeping the Weasels out of the Cathedral.
Corey Frank (02:01):
Then the focus of Youngblood Works and Uncommon Pro is we find companies and then we invest or we'll lead the round or we'll do a pile on round on a funding place, or we'll do like sales advisory consulting and what's your product-market fit and stuff. But then it led to the creation of the accelerator. And the accelerator is where we have organizations all across the world, like a hundred plus different mainly in cybersecurity and med-tech, where we do top of the funnel and we'll help them create their top of funnel activities, prove product-market fit. And then we'll also do full-stack. So if they want us to sell their product in their name, because they don't have a sales team, we'll do that. And that's branch 49.
Corey Frank (02:43):
And so branch99.com is really like if we were going out, like with maybe something like this and say, Hey, it's really youngblood Works, but it's Branch 49 is kind of the go-to-market, the B2B kind of element with regards to what we do. It's like a VSA. Remember we had Val on about six months ago. So we do similar, but we focus predominantly on cyber. And then we do all the messaging. So through Oren Klaff, who we've had on before too, my buddy Oren, that's what we do on Uncommon Pro is we craft kind of the face melter messaging screenplays for folks. We have a technical sales division where we take cybersecurity content, educational content, and that's called Tresorit. And so Youngblood Works is the parent. And then we invest and fund all these other different companies. Branch 49 is the one that's forced your main to what we talk about at market dominance, which is trust-based conversations at scale when we do that for companies.
Susan Finch (03:41):
I want to talk, I mean, you gave me the overview of Branch 49, of Youngbloods and things, but I want to talk about the impact that you guys are having starting people from a good starting point with good training, rather than having to correct bad habits that people learned from first jobs where people have no clue how to train somebody, and the strength and the advantage that all those people are going to have, having gone through your programs and how many of them are already on their way to successful careers as they graduate debt-free. There's a point to me, almost a social responsibility and as successful business people, if we want to keep everybody being successful and growing and dealing with successful people, we have to put our time in and our effort in to getting people to that level before they even start down some career path, starting their own businesses, whatever it is.
Susan Finch (04:37):
And so you guys have taken that responsibility and taken that lead. Yeah, you're making money from it and you guys are benefiting and other people are too. That's not the point. It's that long-term investment in these humans that are choosing to be a part of this program. I watched too many people that I run across in B2B, B2C that have had horrible training, no training, partial training, no support. And they have no confidence, they're shwarmy, they're nobody you want you to deal with, let alone share lunch with, dinner, or a long-term relationship, or refer anybody to.
Corey Frank (05:11):
Where do they learn? Is it like they're just a victim of the social more, the Kardashians and the Instagram and the selfie generation? Where do they learn that bad or not optimal sales behavior? Because they don't have enough experience to buy cars or houses or buy software yet. So they learn it from somewhere.
Susan Finch (05:33):
Think about the movie Tin Men.
Corey Frank (05:35):
Yeah. Right.
Susan Finch (05:36):
Okay? That's way before the Kardashians.
Corey Frank (05:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Susan Finch (05:40):
Weasels have been there all along. Snake oil salesmen, it has always been that time. It's a shortcut, it's lazy. It's survivor mode that people get in to. And those are cycles that get repeated in households and by example. That's where they see it first, no matter what the home life is like, whether it's fractured, whether it's all put together, but they watch these examples happening and they continue it. And then yes, it is further emphasized, further supported through these fantasy things that we see on television, on Instagram, on everywhere as if it's reality and the lines are kind of blurred. I hear it from people in my daughter's groups. You would almost think that they thought the reboot of Dynasty was really how it is. People are really like this. No, they are not. I'm telling you, you don't understand this is camp. I said it is not camp. Yeah, it's camp. It's campy.
Corey Frank (06:39):
Reality TV. Right?
Susan Finch (06:41):
But they don't get what campy is. They actually think it's attainable and correct.
Corey Frank (06:47):
And lack of moral compass. I don't know. Maybe we wouldn't have to get rid of that.
Susan Finch (06:51):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, you and I have talked about that before that all these people, I'm spiritual. I just want to have to go to church. I don't have to do this. They have no communities that they are answering to hold them accountable because that'd be inconvenient and embarrassing and make them change. And mainly that's why people don't do that. And so they use it as their excuse. I hate religion. I hate structured this. I hate structured that. Well, the more we've all fallen away from all that, whatever your faith is, but something that is not you, not the almighty dollar to guide us and for people to call us out as we don't live with all of our extended families like we used to. I'm away from all my cousins. My kids are away from their cousins. They're away from their nieces and nephews and their uncles that would call them on their crud when I'm exhausted.
Susan Finch (07:38):
And remember, I mean, when you grew up, when I grew up, there were people on us. We had so many sets of parents. So many people that could give their opinion could smack us on the back of the head like, what are you doing?
Corey Frank (07:50):
Well, maybe that's interesting than that with the whole Chris likes to really focus on the new virtual landscape of business, right? We're not going back to the office.
Susan Finch (08:01):
No, we're not.
Corey Frank (08:02):
One of the downside pieces of residue is just that in a familial if you're in a small town and you got cousins and uncles, et cetera, you steal a candy bar from a drug store, somebody's going to tell your uncle, he's going to tell your dad. If I'm working from home for you, I'm a sales rep working for my manager. Yeah, we have Zoom calls a couple of times a day, account reviews here and there. But my daily behavior is a spreadsheet. It's not what I'm doing. Maybe how I'm dressing, what time I'm getting up. What I can't observe. Our folks are 20 feet here. Here's [crosstalk 00:08:35] right? And I can see their body language, I can see when they're hunched over. I can see when they're... All those little nonverbal cues that say, I think the lead list sucks. Or I think it's time for jumping jacks or I think it's time for bringing in pizza. So maybe that's one of the downsides of having this kind of truly virtual culture is that level of accountability you're talking about.
Susan Finch (08:57):
So with the extra time that we're all saving from not going into the office from not having nonsense meetings all day long, just to hear somebody else yammer on what percentage of time should we invest? If we can spend three hours watching television that night, take 10% of that time, 18 minutes devoted to community. Whenever your downtime is 10%, I dare you to invest in an accountability group. Whether it's your neighbors, your friends, your peers. I have three people that all own their own businesses within walking distance from my house. We are accountable to each other. We check in, we take walks. We brainstorm in person as we're walking the dogs, as we're blowing off steam, whatever it is. But we do that three times a week.
Corey Frank (09:45):
Sure, sure.
Susan Finch (09:46):
So right there, and they'll remember and say, well, what happened to that thing you were doing? Well, how come that's not working? Oh my gosh, that's what she said? You might want to consider.
Corey Frank (09:57):
That's powerful. Wow. That's great. You're lucky to have that. You can't hide, right?
Susan Finch (10:02):
I don't want to.
Corey Frank (10:03):
You don't want to.
Susan Finch (10:04):
But there's the difference too, because I can't keep improving or succeeding or whatever it is if I am not willing to change and to look at the ugly parts.
Corey Frank (10:18):
That's so good. So out of principles, right?
Susan Finch (10:59):
Tell me some of the successes. I mean, I know there have to be so many highlights from right there at Branch 49, with everything that you're doing. Can you tell us a couple of what it used to be like, what happened and what it's like today for a few people?
Corey Frank (11:13):
Yeah. To take a step back for a second, the concept came from Chris's inspiration and our riffs over the years, that there needs to be a different training mechanism, boot camp, minor league system for bringing up the next generation of sales folks. And we had talked about that just a few minutes ago, is what are these cultural shackles that limit the folks from wanting to move into sales or doing it the "right way"? And so this concept of this being a finishing school for future CEOs.
Susan Finch (11:52):
Yes.
Corey Frank (11:53):
As we've heard many times on this show, with Chris and all of our guests is that if you're a CEO and you're not actively selling, there's a challenge there. I think it was Henry Ford who said the definition of a sales manager is the best damn salesperson in the place. And today, as a CEO, you can't just be product-oriented or finance-oriented. You need to be up, front and center, whether it's selling stock in your company or it's helping your folks sell products. And as we've talked many times, it's not just cherry-picking, oh, give me the good leads. It's having, as the CEO, do the cold calling so they see what the quality of the lead lists are, the quality of the tech stack, and everything in the float.
Corey Frank (12:35):
So we set out here at Grand Canyon to create that, and we've had kind of an interesting AB experiment. We've had students and grads from the university so fresh they didn't know anything. And then we had let's call them killers. We had the thousand-yard stare who worked with other technology companies, cybersecurity companies, sold in the past. And they came together. You would think then that this island of Dr. Moreau would happen where you have these two or these Lord of the flies, where you have these two cultures where the vets would kind of teach the younger folks. But what's interesting is what happened is we taught everybody, in the same way, is this is the books you read. This is we use the Sandler and the Oren Klaff Pitch Anything methodology. You're going to journal every day. You're going to dress the part. We're going to teach you public speaking, we're going to teach you how to read a financial statement. We're going to teach breathing exercises. So when you speak, you speak properly. Zoom backgrounds, all that stuff.
Corey Frank (13:36):
And you found that the killers, the ones who had experience, they really globbed onto this at a rate that was equivalent to what the new folks did because, and as you interviewed these folks after months and our performance went up, they realized that no one really taught them that before. When they started at a new organization, it was all about product training and sales training was just a small piece of it and they said, well, you guys figure it out. And-
Susan Finch (14:05):
Here's a list.
Corey Frank (14:06):
Here's a list. And so they had to really unlearn a lot of the basic cliche type of techniques. Well, I just like to wing it. I just like to have my personality shine through in the interview. Right? Susan, well, what's the strongest part of your sales process before they come on? And I'd write it down. Rapport building, relationship building. And of course, they would say, “well, probably my ability to build rapport and relationships”. I showed it to him, and was like, how did I know that? It's because most folks have this mindset to have supplicative behavior that is needy, that I want to be liked. I want to be included. I want to be part of the tribe.
Corey Frank (14:46):
And I think we had Oren on, what about six months ago I think it was, the Oren Klaff Pitch Anything. And he talks about, you need four key elements in every sales. Humor, you need intrigue, you need curiosity, but most importantly, you need tension. And it doesn't mean you're over the top and you're aggressive or you're a jerk. It just means your ability where I'm going to come off as equal status and not supplicative, or hat an hand. And if I come off as equal status or at least professional, knowing my world, you know your world, the success is going to increase. And so that's been one of the things that a lot of folks tend to unlearn. So from a success story perspective, that's really neat to see is that people crave a process, a regimen, a structure, more than anything else.
Susan Finch (15:28):
Well, and they're seeing too that it works. In short order, they're seeing that it works.
Corey Frank (15:34):
Yeah.
Susan Finch (15:34):
And like you said, you're taking people that were tossed into the ring with no training. And most salespeople are not, I mean, even in retail, business to business retail. Doesn't matter. They barely get anything. It is all about the product, the widget that you're selling, the service that you're selling, know it inside and out so you can answer any questions. That's good. That's really good because you don't want to sound like an idiot. Because why are you going to sell something to somebody you don't know anything about?
Corey Frank (16:00):
Right. We looked at birth order a lot too. Certainly, the firstborns are very interesting to train. So I'm sure you've had experience with it. First and onlies. I mean, they're just-
Susan Finch (16:10):
The singletons.
Corey Frank (16:11):
Yeah. Yeah. If it's not in the book if it's not in the training book, then why isn't it in a training book? And it's tougher to call audibles in general, very justice-oriented. So if you have a comp policy, you have a crossover policy with leads. If you have somebody grant a couple of hours of PTO, you better have it equal across the board. Those are firstborns, especially first [crosstalk 00:16:34].
Susan Finch (16:33):
Interesting.
Corey Frank (16:34):
And then the last borns you're going to have the rule-breakers, the comedians, the Reverend folks. And you need a nice amalgam of both firsts and lasts. And the second borns even, they're more of the melancholy, the people Watchers. They get along to get along. The consensus builders between the two. And so obviously it just comes out in the wash that we know who's a first and who's a last and a middle.
Susan Finch (16:58):
It's fascinating.
Corey Frank (16:59):
But once we do the OMG or the Myers-Briggs and we've used them all here at the university, we can get access to all these tools, people always want the little mental pinprick, blood tests, roar shack of where do I rank?
Susan Finch (17:14):
Where do I fit in? Like you were saying.
Corey Frank (17:16):
Yeah.
Susan Finch (17:17):
What's my place here because I want to make sure I do my place right so I can be successful. And I think that's part of it is they're looking for that answer of, okay, what's my starting point where the expectations of me, what do you know about me? And how can I blow that out of the water?
Corey Frank (17:37):
Yeah, because they're all looking for their why. Even though they think they're looking for a what, because they post on Instagram, this house or this boat, or this stack of money or this trip, they think they're surfing for the what and you and I, of a certain age, of having families, and we see children and we've had a number of team members work with us over the years, you realize that, okay, there's no or little nutritional value in shooting for a what without the why. And so one of the things that Chris has helped us a lot with is helping identify where the why, man searched for me and is on the book lists that these folks have. Any person could do a what if they understand a why.
Corey Frank (18:18):
We tell a story oldie but a goodie I'd give credit if I knew where this came from, but a guy walks past a construction site, and sees five people laying brick, Susan. And he goes to the first guide and says, "Hey, what are you doing?" He's like, "Building a wall." Goes to the second guy, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Making 12 bucks an hour." Goes to the third guy and says, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Laying brick" and goes to the fourth guy and says, "What are you doing?" He says, "I'm building a cathedral." Then finally goes to the fifth and says, "What are you doing?" He says, "I'm saving men's souls." Now they're all doing the same thing. They're all laying brick, making 12 bucks an hour, building a wall. But it's the latter two who see building the cathedral and saving men's souls as the ones that probably are paying a little bit more close attention to detail spelling in their notes, pick it up a piece of paper in the corner of the office, refilling the soda machine, if it needs it. Not taking the last bagel in the morning. Those are the folks that really kind of make the culture sing.
Corey Frank (19:24):
And then you find a lot of the folks who weren't taught that way. They have five years’ experience, they say, but they really have like one year five times or six months 20 times. So you'd assume that the veterans would be the leaders, but it's actually the newer folks, the grads, and the current students who this is brand new, who is so enamored with the shiny object of a why finally. After four years of school, and I finally figured out what I want to do versus probably people like you and me, right, who drifted, fell into sales because we're liberal arts folks. And that's just I guess what we do. We have a good personality and it's either drive a cab 10 borrower or jump into sales.
Susan Finch (20:05):
One of my first jobs, my first two jobs, I didn't get myself.
Corey Frank (20:09):
You didn't get yourself?
Susan Finch (20:10):
No, my girlfriend got hired. And then she said, "I need you to come work with me because we need another person. You're the only person I could work with."
Corey Frank (20:18):
So you're drafted.
Susan Finch (20:19):
So I was drafted by two different companies. The first one was a men's clothing store in the mall to sell David James closures, and trying to sell men's casual wear, chinos, suits, you name it. And we killed it. We both quit though because some people like too many inseams measured. Then we moved on and she got a job at a health club and in the call center, oh my gosh, your name was drawn. You just won a two-week free membership. Are you kidding me? This is so great. That was my first telemarketing job, grabbing the names from the fishbowl and calling them up, and getting them excited to come in. She would close them on the tour. So we double-teamed. So those were my first two jobs. And then I went into restaurants and stuff for a while.
Corey Frank (21:05):
So it wasn't necessarily an intentional pathway or traverse up the mountain to say, Hey, this is what I want to accomplish. But isn't that funny though, Susan, that we talk with, and most of the folks in our profession, because there's no formal sale. Ohio University has great sales school and Texas and Baylor University, but Arizona State is getting one but Grand Canyon University where I am. But a lot of universities, don't have a sales school yet. Right?
Susan Finch (21:29):
No.
Corey Frank (21:30):
Part of communication and marketing. So you have folks who kind of fall into it and there's no LSAT or GMAT, or again, roar shack that you need to get into sales or not. It's steam this mirror, you got a good personality. It's like the old animal house. Hey, we need the dos, let's hire this person. And I think that kind of weighs... One of the other things that Oren says is people want what they can't have, people chase what moves away from them. And people only place value on that which is difficult to obtain.
Corey Frank (22:00):
I'm sure you have. I know Chris has, I certainly haven't... early in my career, you were interviewing for a sales position and they're hiring you 15 minutes in to the interview and first you're exuberant and enthused, and this is fantastic. And then you say, wait a minute here.
Susan Finch (22:16):
Too easy.
Corey Frank (22:17):
Too easy. And I think that's part of the downside of a lot of sales organizations. They don't make their process, their neediness shows. And it shows if I'm a recent grad and I graduate and I have a marketing major business, major economics, et cetera. And I get offered three jobs. One is a life insurance company. The other one is enterprise Rent-A-Car or the third one, I don't feel like it really worked for it like I needed to get into a top law school for instance. And I think that when I start day one, that's probably festering a little bit how valuable is this place if they'll hire anybody.
Susan Finch (22:51):
Right. I was telling you earlier that I went to Santa Fe. And I don't know if you know, I owned an art gallery years ago in Laguna Beach. It was contemporary Southwestern. So we visited one of the artists that I used to represent. And I was his top gallery. I was for all of our artists because I can tell a story and I was selling their stories and I only had artists in that I would want to invite into my home. It was all good people.
Susan Finch (23:17):
Yep, good people. And so we decided to splurge and we were going to buy a piece of art from this gentleman, Tom Wheeler, before we came back and my husband Tom was looking at a piece and it wasn't very big and it was kind of cool. And then there was one of those twice the size of itself in the suitcase. And I found myself selling that piece of art to my husband, who used to be my client in the gallery, and an easy mark. And I went right into that mode, telling him a story behind this piece that I've just seen for the first time. And see, this represents our family. And they're four stones in here and the hair up there shows humor and that's us. And they were both dying. They said, you just sold your husband a more expensive piece of art. And it made me laugh because once it's in you the right way.
Corey Frank (24:10):
Sure. Were you taught how to sell? Was there a methodology or who taught you how to kind of sell that proper narrative, that emotional arc that people want to be on a journey versus just winging it?
Susan Finch (24:24):
Well, I can say I've sold boating curves, inflatable boats, windlasses, you name it. Those did not have stories. But when we ended up with this gallery years ago, with my ex, they told stories. And that's what sucked us into wanting to buy that gallery because of the stories of every single piece of art, because they knew every artist. I realize people do not need art, but they need to justify the purchase to their friends because it's extravagant and they want a story to tell, they want to know the artist because the artist is a celebrity and I've watched this happen. And I thought, well, the more stories I can amass and listen and pull out of these artists, I can share them. And those pieces will go home, which they did. So I still do that though. I still tell stories, but that's where I really mastered it.
Corey Frank (25:17):
Well, look at Funnel Media Group, right? I mean, between Chris and all your other guests and all the other podcasts that you have, it's just a collection of storytellers in different industries.
Susan Finch (25:27):
Yes, exactly.
Corey Frank (25:29):
In fact, I don't think of any of the Funnel Media Group's podcast, the dozens and hundreds I've listened, I don't think he ever talks about product. There's no product. It's all about people's stories and experiences and learnings and lessons [inaudible 00:25:43].
Susan Finch (25:43):
Right. And there isn't one person... I've had a few people approach us. I've actually turned down a couple of shows because I did not find them honorable. And I can't get behind and promote somebody that is not honorable or a message that isn't honorable. And that I wouldn't be proud to say, Hey, neighbor, you need them. if I'm having to protect my neighbors from my shows and the hosts and their products, there's a problem.
Corey Frank (26:11):
Yeah. There's certainly and even in hiring too, you see that, as you had said, from which artists you bring out or not, is that's a decency quotient. What's somebody's decency quotient? And is it something that can be taught? Is it something that you experience over time? And then you get burned enough and your spider-sense tingles and says, can sales reps be taught that with prospects?
Susan Finch (26:35):
Yes. They can. And I think part of it is letting go of that desperation feel. Have to get the numbers, have to get the numbers, have to get the numbers. And once you learn that it's going to be okay if that one doesn't work out, because there were four more that are better, let it go. And it gets reinforced to us when we have unscrupulous people that have taught us or that we have worked for, they didn't teach us anything, but they're forcing us, scaring us, manipulating us, badgering us to do whatever it takes to get them their goal. And it crushes our souls. It does. It just chips away, little by little.
Corey Frank (27:17):
It does.
Susan Finch (27:18):
And it takes a while for people to recover from that.
On Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall continues his two-part conversation with his fiancée, Helen Fanucci, Microsoft’s Strategic Accounts Global Sales Leader. Today, they’re talking about how work-from-home experiences have resulted in a shift in employees’ attitudes about where and when they are willing to work. This is Helen’s area of expertise: She’s been managing employees remotely for 15 years, helping them grapple with their work-from-home issues. Additionally, she understands the challenges of attracting and retaining the best people, especially in today’s job market. Microsoft’s customers demand great service and support, and, Helen says, “That’s why we have to win the war to get talent. We have to keep serving our customers with amazing talent, or they’ll find somebody else who will.” And once you’ve hired talented people, how do you keep them? “Through servant leadership,” Helen explains. Describing her role as a manager at Microsoft, she says, “I am expected to model and coach, be inclusive, take accountability. I remove the blocks and barriers so that my team can achieve.”
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Chris plays devil’s advocate with his question, “If you’re all touchy-feely with your employees, where does their drive to achieve come from?” Helen is ready with the answer: “When we hire the best people,” she explains, “they come with an inborn drive to achieve. Part of a manager’s job is to make sure those people feel respected. [At Microsoft], we really bend over backward to be accommodating and help employees be successful. But make no mistake about it,” she assures Chris, “We’re about being competitive and winning in the marketplace, and our results show that.” Learn all about hiring and retaining the best people on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “A Talent for Managing Talent.”
About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci has been a valued employee at Microsoft for 13 years and is currently their Strategic Accounts Global Sales Leader, heading up an incredible global team of seasoned sales professionals who are working with some of Microsoft's most strategic accounts.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Chris Beall (02:35):
Well, one of the things I hear you saying is that we need companies to kind of give us places to go. But there aren't places anymore that give us some boundary within which we can organize and work together and be a team. This does actually remind me of the first 88 episodes or whatever, of Market Dominance Guys, which are about, Hey, your company's job is to dominate markets, which provides a stable foundation for doing more, for servicing those customers.
Chris Beall (03:07):
And maybe that's one of the things that we do, as companies. Your company has done an extraordinary job, although I'm sure that there is nobody there who likes to talk about dominating markets, because when you're big and you don't need to talk about it, why talk about it? Right? But the fact of the matter is, there are markets where Microsoft does extraordinarily well. And in a way, that's what makes the home, that's the house in which employees can come. But then we better make sure that they have a good time while they're there, but it's not enough to have a good time. It's a bigger deal.
Chris Beall (03:41):
This is the hardest part for me. Sales management, traditionally, I'll be crude, used to consist of throwing somebody into a territory and seeing if they worked out. So, that was kind of it. And if they didn't work out, then you put somebody else in the territory. I mean, I know there's a lot more to sales management, but traditionally, I think that a lot of what folks call, sales management, has really been, checking to see if people are working out. And then, yes, there're improvement programs and all sorts of stuff and there's training and this and that, all sorts of wonderful things. But that's been kind of the theory, over time.
Chris Beall (04:14):
I've observed how you manage, and you actually get ultra high performance from individuals and from the team, as a result. And yet doing it with these principles, these cultural principles, things that people would say, "Oh, that's a bunch of touchy, feely. Aren't your employees just going to hang out? Aren't they just going to go for long, barefoot runs down to the beach? Why is it they bothered to work at all and do anything useful, if you're just going to make it so delightful and easy for them, and you're just trying to attract them?"
Chris Beall (04:46):
So, how do you achieve that balance? Because that seems to be the key to this whole thing. And I bet a lot of our listeners are going, "Yeah. Okay, great. Attract, attract, attract. Retain, retain, retain. But what about achieve, achieve, achieve?" How do we get all that to go together?
Helen Fanucci (05:02):
Have high expectations of achievement, but do it in a kind way, and do it in a way that helps the employees learn and grow. So first and foremost, I check in with my team and I have one-on-ones with them or team meetings. How are folks doing? But I have very high expectations and there are specific goals and objectives, including revenue performance. I do monthly forecast calls, I deliver revenue, I have quarterly revenue goals. I'm no different than any other sales leader, sales manager.
Helen Fanucci (05:36):
However, at the same time, I am expected, through our cultural expectations, to model, coach, and care my team. That's part of the expectation of manager. So in some cases, I'm modeling for my team, what it means to be inclusive, take accountability. I view my job as, removing the blockers and barriers for my team to achieve. And so, for example, when my team is presenting in an important customer meeting, or it might be an internal meeting where we're actually going to the board of directors, if you will. Not literally the board of Microsoft, but the discount review board, shall we say, to get a request for special pricing for our customer, my seller has been prepping for that, reviewing it with me ahead of time, getting feedback, also with a broader team. And so, is on the hot seat, delivering and presenting and answering questions.
Helen Fanucci (06:40):
What I do is, I listen, and sometimes I'll chime in, if there's something that I can add value on. But I'm in the background taking notes for them, so that they don't have to think about what the actions are or what the conversation was. I'm basically being their admin, if you will, or their note taker while they're on the hot seat. And then I send them the notes and we'll do a debrief of the call.
Helen Fanucci (07:07):
So I do have, at times, performance related challenges with folks on my team. And I think it's really important to be super specific, because it's not an all or nothing thing. I have team members that are seasoned and excellent at what they do, but they're not excellent at everything all the time. So there can be slices of things that require coaching, or as we change role expectations, because we evolve to meet up with the demands of our business so that we can maintain our competitiveness. Or as you say, "dominate a market." Although, I am sensitive to the term, dominant, because I have been at Microsoft during the consent decree period. And while we're past that, it's not a term that we use.
Helen Fanucci (08:04):
But I coach my team and I will do it in specific ways. So for example, "Please, next time we meet, can you review with me your strategy related to data for your customer, so that we can talk about, how are we going to really help the customer with their data backbone. Review for me, your strategy related to executive engagement so that we can get higher in the organization or more with the business leaders." Or it might be a conversation of, "Hey, I'm getting feedback that you are not listening very well in your team calls. And we need to really work on kind of, cultural expectations."
Helen Fanucci (08:50):
So there're things like that, but it's not a, people are either making it or not making it. It's usually more nuanced. And at some point, either the employee or myself will go, "Hey, I don't think this is working out. Let's find another role for you that would be a better fit." And that may be another role within Microsoft. It might be helping the employee to leave Microsoft.
Helen Fanucci (09:18):
And so, I absolutely am all about performing. And in fact, we just must. It just comes.... It's the anti-table stakes, it's the table stakes to make quota, to keep pipelines up to date, to do forecast. And it's complex. And if an employee misses their sales target for a year or two years, we've got to look at, what are they contributing? Are they doing the right things? Do they have the right impact? And at a company as large as Microsoft, sometimes we get quotas wrong. Sometimes people's quotas have a baseline in it that doesn't make sense because the customer divested a big part of our business.
Helen Fanucci (10:06):
So we've got a look at the bigger picture. It's not just a binary, yes or no. It's just, we're going to look at a bigger picture and it's more nuanced. And so when I interact with my team as a manager, I try to be nuanced and helpful to them so that they can excel and succeed, not only in the job today, but in their career at Microsoft. And help them build skills and abilities so that they can achieve what success looks like on their terms.
Chris Beall (10:40):
I think that's what's fascinating. You told me a story about somebody a little while ago, at a company that I think we should not name. And this person ultimately, as the source of their dissatisfaction, that caused them to go and become, today, an entrepreneur. Went through a couple of changes along the way, but they left that company a super talent, not just kind of good talent, but I always talk about the top 20%. This is somebody way, way above the top 20%.
Chris Beall (11:11):
And the way the company failed to be attractive was, they basically said, Look, you're kind of here in this job because we need a person like you in this job, because we're getting some credit for that." And this individual, she said, "I want to go do something valuable." And then they said, "Well, but if you go do something valuable for some other part of the organization, we don't get credits. So, you have to stay here and do nothing."
Chris Beall (11:38):
And I think a lot of people think, "Oh, that'd be fine. I'm going to hang out. I'm going to be on a weird-ass vacation, right? Where I'm just hanging." And yet, maybe part of the secret of your opening up here is, "Hey, when we hire the best people, they come with an inborn drive to achieve." And as you said, "If we can get the blockers out of the way, reduce the friction, and also make sure that they feel respected along the way..." That's another thing that I've seen. It's like that switch that, when you flip the disrespect, the switch once with an employee, you're pretty much toast. Coming back from that, where they feel like they aren't respected, or it might've been actual disrespect. It may have just been neglect or whatever. That's a tough one to recover from. And I think again, it's like, it's actually almost a format disrespect to say, "I don't expect you to perform.", because people expect themselves to perform and they want to be challenged.
Chris Beall (12:34):
You don't have to elaborate on that story, but I was really impressed with it. I was like, "Wow." Because I know a lot of people say, "Hey, if you go all touchy, feely, and it's all about being nice to people and empathetic, and all this stuff, where is that drive to perform? Where is the drive to achieve?" And I think that comes out of the selection of people who have a drive to achieve, and kind of nothing else, except giving them the opportunity.
Helen Fanucci (12:58):
Yeah. Well, delivering results is one of our values. We have three leadership principles. Deliver results, is one of them, and so that's absolutely key, and you've got to hire for that. Create clarity and generate energy are the three leadership principles.
Helen Fanucci (13:13):
But for sure, we hire people that have a big motor and want to get things done. And some times the latitude that we have to make changes, isn't fast enough for that employee. So in that example, yes, the person was unhappy because they were basically being used by upper management to help achieve some goals or metrics upper management had. But without having a job that was satisfying to them because things got changed in the organization, so they left.
Helen Fanucci (13:50):
I've recently had a situation where I had to have an employee with a big motor, big drive to succeed. And through some circumstances, she ended up moving into another team because we couldn't adapt quickly enough to keep her on my team and open up another role that would be a stronger fit for her. And so, this is where kind of the larger company situation and the lack of agility that comes into play sometimes, can hurt, I think. So then, people leave. And so, that happens.
Helen Fanucci (14:27):
But in the balance, I think we really, really try to bend over backwards to be accommodating and help employees be successful. But make no mistake about it, we're about being competitive and winning in the marketplace. And our results show that, if you look at the growth of our business.
Helen Fanucci (14:47):
And the Microsoft U.S. president just announced that she was leaving Microsoft. And in her four years at Microsoft, she almost doubled our revenue in business in Microsoft U.S. And that was on a huge base of business. And so, yeah, we're about winning and being competitive and valuable to our customers. And I think our leadership has done a great job. We're not perfect, but it's a way better place to work now, than it was 10 years ago.
Chris Beall (16:01):
But it's fascinating. And that is going to be the foundation for Microsoft's competitiveness, going forward. Right? It's a much better place to work, so you get great talent. And great talent is what your customers demand. But if you just kind of think of it that way, the company can create the marketplace, at some point. Right? There it is. We're dominating this market. We're important in this market. We have these customers. But the customers demand in a way that they can't really say. They can't come out and say, "We demand you give us the best talent." But directly and indirectly, they're demanding that, and they'll walk. Customers will walk, if you don't provide them with the people to interact with, that they feel like are people that are worthy of their importance as a customer, so to speak.
Chris Beall (16:47):
And I think to us, that's a really big deal. As you know, we've won this award from the American Association of Inside Sales Professionals, that I connect and sell seven years in a row. And what are those customers saying? They're saying, "Your people are people we really get a lot of value out of interacting with." That's actually what they're saying. It's called, Service Provider of the Year award.
Chris Beall (17:07):
I think our customers vote every day about our people, maybe more than our products. And I think that's really interesting, as a grounds for these two competitive forces come together. If we don't compete with everybody for the people, and then give them that latitude to be great within a structure that allows it to work for the customers, then the customers are going to go, "Well. I'll go to somebody who does compete and gets better people."
Helen Fanucci (17:33):
Yeah, you've got to have... It starts with great people, no doubt about it. It starts with great people. And that's why you've got to win the war on talent and be the destination organization, or the destination manager, that the talent wants to work for.
Helen Fanucci (17:51):
You're exactly right. Every customer is grappling with technology and every customer must be a digital company and transform and monetize their data. And they're looking for Microsoft and our partners because we have a big partner ecosystem we work with. But they're looking for us to really guide them and help them along the way.
Helen Fanucci (18:13):
And actually, we do have customers that call up Satya or send him an email and say, "I need your A-team on this." So, that just happened. A few months ago, one of my customers did that, and they were kind of in a tight spot. And we were stepping up to help them. And they sent Satya an email and said, "I need your A-team. I need your best people on this." And he assured him that we were doing that, and we rose to the occasion. And so, that is an expectation of our customers. And we've got to keep serving our customers and serving them with amazing talent, or they'll find somebody else who will.
Chris Beall (18:52):
Yeah. It seems like there's a virtuous cycle that has always been there. But one element has flipped, which is, the locust of competition has moved. We can't assume that the employees that we have, or the employees in our local area or candidates, are just going to come on board because we're the only game in town. And that's an easy thing to do. Maybe that's what Apple is doing by saying, "The employees have all got to come to the campus." Is they're saying, "We're the only game in town." But I suspect, one in town, doesn't really mean very much anymore. There's talent all over the place. And two, only game? Not quite so sure anybody's ever the only game. Right? These things come and go.
Chris Beall (19:34):
I'd make this contention. I don't know if you agree with me or not. But if you're looking to invest in companies, and everybody's looking to get a return on their money that exceeds certainly the pathetically low interest rates out there, but exceeds the market as a whole... Is this a dimension along which the analysts, who are going to look at companies and advise us to invest or not invest in this company versus that, that they should be looking at?
Chris Beall (20:03):
Because I've never heard an analyst, a stock market analyst say, "You know what? That Microsoft over there, they have got the handle on this cultural issue and this way of looking at things where their flexibility and their commitment to culture, and their willingness and ability to train on empathy. And do all of these things you're talking about, that is going to take them from whatever it is, their stock price of whatever number it is today, to two X, three X, four X that in the future. So don't you worry because they're competing with folks who, frankly, don't get this war on talent."
Chris Beall (20:42):
And so ding, ding, dang, we have a winner over here. Put your money here. Do you think that's going to become something that the analysts from whatever they are, the Morgan Stanley's of the world and so forth, are going to start talking about?
Helen Fanucci (20:55):
That's a really good question. In some ways, I think Microsoft's stock is reflective of our culture. And the reason I say that is because, Satya made it a top priority when he took over, to address culture. You can't transform, you can't have digital transformation without cultural transformation. The data is really clear on that. I used to do a keynote on that topic and it just doesn't work.
Helen Fanucci (21:24):
And so our ability to change as a company, which has been credited to Satya and the great work he's done, the underpinnings of that are our cultural transformation. So while it may not be deliberately noted by analysts, I think it is baked into our stock price because we've been able to achieve those results. Those results are only possible by our cultural transformation.
Helen Fanucci (21:54):
And Microsoft's mission is to empower every person and organization on the planet to achieve more. And Satya consistently says, "We can't achieve our mission without addressing our culture and having a great culture." It is our culture that achieves our mission and achieves the return on investment. And it achieves the stock price.
Chris Beall (22:21):
Yeah. It's fascinating stuff. I know that there's an apocryphal or maybe true Chinese curse that says, "May you live in interesting times." And that's supposed to mean, you don't want interesting times. You just want everything to kind of go along so you can go along with everything that's going along. Right?
Chris Beall (22:36):
I have a feeling you really like interesting times. That this is energizing for you, that this big change is going to be what carries you forward in your career and gives you things to focus on that are going to be fun and productive for you and for other people. Are you feeling that? Are you feeling... You talk about energy, and how energy is... bringing energy as part of the game. Is this craziness? Where some people feel like it's depressing and some people feel like it is scary, too complex, makes them want to retire tomorrow, and get out of the world of helping companies and helping people do things, you don't seem to have that response to it. It seems to me like you like going toward this sort of thing and grappling with it.
Helen Fanucci (23:18):
Oh, yeah. I love it. I am like, "Game on. Let's figure this out." I'm really excited about the opportunities and what the future brings. So I've been managing employees remotely for over 15 years. And I'm really comfortable with it, I'm good at it, and I think I have a lot to offer. And I also help colleagues grapple with issues, particularly as it pertains to remote work or managing remote employees. And I think it's super interesting. And I love it, and I love what I do. And I think we're just at the start of this. And I'm really excited about what the future holds.
Chris Beall (23:59):
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, Helen, thank you so much. Finally, an issue of Market Dominance Guys that doesn't go on and on and on about winning sales. I know you know how to win sales. You win deals all the time. You beat your numbers, you do all that kind of stuff. But I feel that this is a pretty special episode or two. I don't know what this will become.
Chris Beall (24:19):
I'm sorry Corey wasn't here. Corey, dude, whatever it is that you're doing, wherever it is you're doing it, I know you're going to pronounce people's names correctly. So, that's fantastic. But Helen's here with us today. Helen Fanucci, thank you so much for being on Market Dominance Guys. We could not be more blessed.
Helen Fanucci (24:36):
Thank you, Chris. I am so delighted to be invited and I'm just glad that you got around to inviting me. I thought, "Yeah..." I don't know. I wasn't sure what I needed to do to earn an invitation. So, thank you for being so astute and inviting me.
Chris Beall (24:52):
All right. Lucky me.
This week on Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall is once again flying solo while Corey Frank is out traveling the world. Chris’ guest today is Helen Fanucci, Strategic Accounts Global Sales Leader at Microsoft — and Chris’ fiancée! The topic today veers away from competing with other companies for market domination, to competing with other companies for market talent. It’s just another result of our almost year and a half of working from home due to the pandemic: People now want flexibility in where they work and when they work.
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Helen explains that, because of this, managers have to manage and hire differently today, and provide the flexibility that workers might prefer. “We have to manage for outcome and results,” she says, “not just how long people are spending in the office.” Companies need to understand how to get the best out of their teams, building in that flexibility so that people want to continue to work. Another change is the necessity of asking how your team is doing on a personal level. Helen tells Chris, “If members of your team aren’t doing well, how can your company meet customers’ needs?” Employees exercise more power now with their decisions to stay at their current job or look elsewhere for a company that is willing to meet their needs, so it becomes imperative for managers and companies to be the kind of people that employees want to work for. Want to know more? Then listen to today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Will They Stay or Will They Go?”
About Our Guest
Helen Fanucci has been a valued employee at Microsoft for 13 years and is currently their Strategic Accounts Global Sales Leader, heading up an incredible global team of seasoned sales professionals who are working with some of Microsoft's most strategic accounts.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Chris Beall (01:50):
Hey, everybody, welcome to an unusual episode of Market Dominance Guys. For one thing, we are missing my co-host, the estimable, maybe inestimable, I don't know how to estimate him, Corey Frank, who is off somewhere. I don't know if he went off on this cruise ship behind me or if he's doing something else, but he's not available today. And so we're going to have me play the host. And with me today is Helen Fanucci. And full disclosure, Helen Fanucci and I are engaged to marry each other. That's how it works is you marry each other. It's not a passive voice, like to be married, it's active voice because we're active people.
Chris Beall (02:30):
And Helen is working for Microsoft. She calls herself a sales manager. I think that's accurate. She is a sales manager, but she manages some really, really big strategic accounts at Microsoft. But Helen has a substantial career in sales and sales management, also in marketing and actually an MIT-trained engineer, mechanical engineer, which is pretty unusual in the world of sales. So Helen, welcome to Market Dominance Guys.
Helen Fanucci (03:01):
Thanks, Chris. Delighted to be here and delighted to be here with you.
Chris Beall (03:05):
It's pretty cool. So Helen, we've been talking on Market Dominance Guys for 80-something episodes about one thing, which is dominating markets in terms of competing for customers and particularly competing for markets. So markets are all those collection of customers that are inter-referencing, so if you sell to one, your risk and the cost of selling to every other single one within the market.
Chris Beall (03:30):
You have been looking at the world of successful companies, being successful and being successful as a sales manager and being successful in all these ways, in a completely different way. Basically, turning the lens around almost exactly 180 degrees and talking about something that we have literally never mentioned on Market Dominance Guys, which is how the world is structured now, with regard to companies competing with each other.
Chris Beall (04:01):
And your thesis appears to be that companies are now competing for something completely different from customers and it's much more important. So first, tell us a little about what that view is and then kind of how did you get to that view, and what led you there throughout your career? Why would you think such unusual thoughts?
Helen Fanucci (04:22):
Well, thanks Chris. So you're right, we used to compete for customers, and now we're competing for talent. And the big sea change that's happened is really accelerated by the pandemic. So during the pandemic, it became painfully at times clear that what really mattered as a sales manager, sales leader is how my team was doing. If we individually aren't doing well, we can't possibly serve our customers and do our best for our customers.
Helen Fanucci (05:00):
And so the expectations of employees has really changed, and we probably would have gotten there eventually. But as Satya said, a few months after the pandemic started, that we did two years worth of digital transformation in two months. And I think it's largely the same with the relationship between employee and company, employee and manager.
Helen Fanucci (05:30):
So when I say employees expectations have changed, there's a lot of data on that now. They expect to be known personally, first and foremost, and their whole life included, not just a work life. We used to think of going to work as to be professional at work is to not talk about personal things and just talk about work things. That doesn't cut it, and that's an outdated notion. And so employees like flexibility. So we compete for talent and the expectations have changed.
Helen Fanucci (06:09):
So 73% of respondents in a survey want flexibility of where they work. 92% want flexibility on when they work. And so we're a great example, by the way, Chris. The day after Amy Hood, Microsoft's CFO said, "Hey, returning back to the office," and this was May 2020, "returning back to the office after the pandemic will also have a component of choice." And so we looked at each other and we said, "Well, let's buy a house in Port Townsend because I'll have a choice of whether I go back to the office. So it gives us the flexibility of not just living in Seattle, but we can live on the Olympic Peninsula overlooking Discovery Bay and looking out towards Victoria, Canada.
Helen Fanucci (07:03):
So that trend is happening all over the place. And then I have employees that actually want to work from different countries from time to time. I have an employee that asked about working in India for a month. Family, he lives in California, but his country of origin is India. And so I said, "Sure," because if I don't start providing that flexibility, they're going to go work for somebody who does. And so this idea of coming back to the office is really, it's not going to happen. The genie's out of the bottle and it's not going back and employees aren't going back.
Chris Beall (07:42):
And the genie is granting the employees, in a lot of way, all knowledge-worker employees their ultimate wish, which is, you're in charge. I mean, you can choose for whom you want. We always used to say it's a free country, but maybe suddenly it's a free world with regard to employer-employee relationships. And that seems very new.
Chris Beall (08:02):
And if I was recruiting at one point in the Bay Area, I'd be either recruiting from people who already live in the Bay Area or people who are willing to move. And if they're willing to move, don't they have to move their whole family? So maybe I'm getting them before they are married and have kids or whatever it is that might be binding them together, but maybe not. And do they have to uproot their spouse, their kids, the school, all that stuff? I think that's the way it used to go, and now it's like, now the employee gets to make that call.
Chris Beall (08:33):
They might love me so much and "Oh, I really want to come to work for ConnectAndSell in Los Gatos, California," which by the way we don't do. ConnectAndSell, we just let you work wherever you want. But they might love me that much. But that love is a tax, right? I've got to actually raise the bar to get them to love me so much that they'll move close by to work physically together. And somebody else might say, no, you can work wherever you want, work for Helen Fanucci. She'll let you work where you want. You would out compete me in that case, all else being equal.
Chris Beall (09:05):
Of course, your company is much more, got a lot of good qualities. ConnectAndSell is a bit of a pain in the ass to work for. But you get my meaning, right? Are you seeing this play out in practical ways already with regard to, is it more with regard to retention or is it with regard to attracting new talent or is it both equally? What are you seeing play out already, that's really impacting folks ability to compete in the marketplace because they have the talent that they need.
Helen Fanucci (09:33):
Well, the first order of business is retaining talent because why hire new talent if you can't retain the ones who have? And so I think the data is four million workers quit their jobs in the month of April, and so that's huge. And every employee is probably thinking about quitting, at least checking out what's out there, because there's so many jobs available. I think it's like 9.3 million jobs or something like that available.
Helen Fanucci (10:07):
And so retaining is first and foremost, and retaining requires flexibility. And so a company I know that I'd rather remain nameless, is requiring their workers to come back to the office. And in fact, it's been told to me that their CEO counts cars in the parking lot. And what they're experiencing are workers, employees are quitting left and right. They're not going to put up with being required to go into the office. So counting cars in the parking lot is actually emptying the parking lot.
Chris Beall (10:51):
Wow.
Helen Fanucci (10:52):
I know. And they're having a tough time retaining talent. So that's a real example that's happening now. You may have heard about Apple and Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase wanting to require workers to go back to the office. That ship has sailed, so to speak. No pun intended with your beautiful ship in the background. Hybrid work is here to stay.
Helen Fanucci (11:16):
We actually compete with everyone around the world for talent because we can hire from anywhere and they can work from anywhere. It opens up a competitive landscape. So while you might say Microsoft is competing with Google and AWS and Salesforce and all these tech companies, in reality, all of a sudden overnight our competitors for talent are really all companies, including ConnectAndSell.
Helen Fanucci (11:45):
You may offer such great flexibility and training and skill development in what you do, that I can't hire SDRs at Microsoft because you develop people in a way that we can only dream about, as an example. So then you become our competition, even though from a product point of view, we don't directly compete. So yeah, it's happening all over the place. Retaining talent is the first order of business.
Helen Fanucci (12:13):
Also, we're seeing municipalities, states and cities now flipping from trying to attract companies to come work for them to attracting workers to come work in their location. Just yesterday, I was on the phone with a colleague who lives in Greater Minneapolis and has a house in Northern Minneapolis. Whereas he said, there's more deer than people up there. He's now seeing job listings that list jobs in Northern Minnesota where there's not really any companies. And he says, "Oh, it's all work from home." You can work here. The job is up here where you want to live. And then the job, actually corporate headquarters or what have you, is someplace else.
Helen Fanucci (13:04):
The other thing that I think that we miss a lot is if we are requiring people to come back to the office or not requiring them to come back to the office, as it actually is going, as a sales manager I might say, "Oh, well, I need somebody in California next to the customer so that they can go meet with the customer." But where are the customers? The customers aren't going back to the office either.
Helen Fanucci (13:30):
So one of the phenomena I think we will see is that we'll probably organize travel differently. And so we'll probably have fewer in-person meetings with our customers. And when we do travel, we'll travel to bigger meetings. Maybe it's an executive briefing that's held at Microsoft corporate headquarters, or maybe it's a hotel near the customer's location or at the customer's location, but people are flying in, both the customers are flying in and the sales team.
Helen Fanucci (14:06):
We have an annual sales kickoff meeting that traditionally has happened in Las Vegas every year. Now, we haven't had it in person last year and we're not having it in person this year either, but those could be catalysts for meeting in person. And maybe those kinds of get-togethers end up being extended. But I think we'll see less travel overall because that's part of, also the changing expectation. People want to travel less. They want to work from home. They don't want to commute. We used to commute by planes, trains, and automobiles, and now we commute by logging in.
Helen Fanucci (14:48):
But there is a cost to all of that, to the logging in and working from home that has become researched and evident, that these back-to-back meetings, the data shows that 70% of workers are working three hours more a day. It's just been relentless. I notice that my calendar, when I block it, it doesn't get observed and people want to meet with me nonstop. And so, one of the things I've ended up doing is setting a default in my Outlook settings, so that when I schedule quote-unquote what was a half hour meeting, it's only 25 minutes, or an hour meeting is only 50 minutes because it is really essential for brain health and wellbeing that we take breaks.
Helen Fanucci (15:40):
And Microsoft research did data on that and showed the degradation of cognitive function and that increase in stress just by doing three back-to-back meetings without any break and what it does to your brain. And so we've got to work differently and workers and the talent is demanding that different expectations and different ways of working be in place in order for them to go work for the company that has the jobs.
Helen Fanucci (16:17):
So I think we've got to get a lot more creative. And what this also means for managers is we've got to manage differently and hire differently. We've got to think through the menu of flexibility and choices that a given group of workers might prefer. And when we're managing them, we've got to manage for outcomes, impact and results, not just showing up in the office. Activity doesn't equal results. And so I'm going to pause there because I've said a lot of things, but those are some of my thoughts about how things have changed and really what are some of the core components on the war for talent.
Chris Beall (17:46):
That's fascinating stuff. As I think about it, I always think about, you know me, I was thinking about what's the one thing somebody can do to screw something up or to do it well. And often when we keep doing the same things we were doing before, inadvertently when there's big changes, because big changes don't happen very often. But when there's big changes, we have a hard time shedding old habits. And so as you look at this world that you're basically saying the world is turned upside down.
Chris Beall (18:14):
It's almost like, I think there was an episode of Market Dominance Guys where I talked about the fact that sales has done traditionally is an outgrowth of factory capitalism. So the idea was that factories get capitalized with a bunch of equipment and enough cash to be able to have working capital in order to buy raw materials. And they had access to a supply chain, and then they made widgets. And the widgets must go. They got to go into the market, right? So what did we do? We dumped the widgets, so to speak, into the territories and the salespeople take care of turning the widgets into gross profits that then come back to the company.
Chris Beall (18:55):
And we did all sorts of things called discounting and having specials and bundles and this, that, and the other thing to try to move the damn widgets because the widgets otherwise pile up. And we spent money to make something that we don't get any money back for, right? And now the world has changed to where companies like yours, like Microsoft, I'd say Microsoft's leading the way. And Microsoft and Apple are probably the two leaders in this, turning the world into software.
Chris Beall (19:21):
Basically, software eats the world and now everything is software, including physical products become very software-like, so we don't have a lot of inventory. And so my point was, hey, here we have this change, which means which we should change how we sell. And we shouldn't just assign territories and dump inventory into it. But you're saying there's a different change entirely, which is, it's not how we sell, it's who's on our team to help us sell, whether they're sellers or somebody else.
Chris Beall (19:56):
And I hate to say it, people are going to think I'm some kind of a lunatic, but in a weird way, it's almost like Karl Marx is finally right. That is the means of production in the world of sales and other things, has actually fallen into the hands of the workers. It's the products that you guys make at Microsoft that let workers like me, for instance, working today with my data concierge, who's been on the show, Tom Jung, where we're working together for ConnectAndSell. Right.
Chris Beall (20:25):
But we actually had the power to do that for anybody without having to pick up and move. So, that power shift seems like such a big deal. So what do you see all of us failing to do, failing to shift in our own mindset or our own actions or how we organize, to keep up with this massive change? Because it's such a massive change, there's no way we're keeping up. We have to be blowing it. So how are we blowing it?
Helen Fanucci (20:54):
Okay. So a couple things there. So the Karl Marx analogy might be a step too far. The power has shifted to the workers, yes. However, we still need an organizing collective that is called a company to help structure and organize the output productivity of the workers. I'll just say it that way. Then it probably sounds all factory work and I don't really mean it that way.
Helen Fanucci (21:28):
So for example, me as a manager, I need to make sure I'm understanding how to get the best and the most out of my team, and my team as an extended team. I have about 600 people that touch my customers. I have a big territory, global strategic accounts, et cetera. And so we have a more defined set of accounts we focus on, but how we go about our job and how we organize that is really critical.
Helen Fanucci (22:02):
And so building in that flexibility so that people want to continue to work. And by the way, as I said, a few minutes ago, about 4 million people quit their jobs in April. And so if you have nobody to do a job, it doesn't matter how you organize the work. And so from that point of view, the workers have power. And in fact, just a quick digression or story, my daughter left her job in January of this year and she's not going to go back to a company. She left her job to pursue her dream, which is starting her own business with her husband.
Helen Fanucci (22:46):
And there's a very low barrier to entry. They are creating an app and an approach to help parents of young children be able to employ behavioral modification techniques to basically help the parents be better parents. And they're doing it through technology and asynchronously and enabling a parental therapy if you will, for behavioral modification at scale and at a lower price point. So she's never going back to an office.
Helen Fanucci (23:25):
So we've got to be sensitive that employees have a lot of choice. And so yes, they have power that way, but we have people in roles and we have coordination that needs to happen in order to serve our customers. But none of that actually is possible unless you have a foundation of a corporate culture. And one of the things that Satya did when he first became CEO of Microsoft in 2014, is he started addressing the Microsoft culture because he knew that we couldn't be competitive and change if we didn't have a strong culture.
Helen Fanucci (24:07):
So there's a lot of work that's done in terms of expectations, of being inclusive, hiring diverse talent. And being inclusive means that people feel included, not just they're on the team. You can hire diverse talent, but if they don't feel included, they'll leave. And so while we used to expect tellers to meet their quota, and that was sufficient, it's no longer sufficient.
Helen Fanucci (24:42):
So for example, you also have to behave consistent to our cultural expectations. And if you're leading a team or interacting with others, and it's not consistent with a culture of inclusion and trust and valuing others points of view, then that's a problem. And you end up, me as a manager, I end up needing to address that. So I would say that the employees have the power, but then it becomes imperative for managers and companies to be the kind of people and the kind of organization that the employees want to work for. And that includes more and more employees want to work for companies that are taking a stand on social justice issues or DACA, have principles that are consistent with their values.
Helen Fanucci (25:43):
It's more complex, I would say that it used to be, to attract talent and it's across many more dimensions. One of the things that we did in Microsoft US, it's an organization of about 10,000 sellers and managers is our president, Kate Johnson brought in Brene Brown and everybody from corporate vice presidents, to directors, to individual contributors, all got trained on dare to lead because we want to have more courageous sellers and leaders. And one of the things we learned is that there is no courage without vulnerability. And so what does it mean to be vulnerable? That's a scary thing for folks.
Helen Fanucci (26:34):
And then as a manager, how do you have empathy for your team? And empathy as distinct from sympathy is about really putting on the other person's shoes and understanding their situation. And so all of that becomes super important in order to build a culture where people feel valued, can communicate. We had a whole module on clear is kind, and being clear on expectations. And being able to, as Brene would say, rumble with vulnerability, like have tough conversations. Because tough conversations actually in a respectful way, unlock innovation and new possibilities.
Helen Fanucci (27:23):
So things have dramatically changed, but we can also carry that to our customers because our customers are struggling with these things too. And so I actually spend quite a bit of time talking to customers about our culture, the changes that we've made, why it matters, how to build teams, how to retain teams, how to manage teams remotely. So there's a lot to unpack here, but those are some of my, I guess, not-so-short thoughts on the subject.
This week’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast wraps up a terrific three-part conversation between our guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, and their guest, Henry Wojdyla, Founder and Principal of RealSource Group. Today, Corey asks Henry how he’s finetuned his business perspective and cold-calling technique since his recent immersion in Market Dominance Guys. “I copy and steal religiously,” Henry freely confesses. “I’ve wholesale stolen Chris’ approach.”
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Henry has gone so far as to distill all he learned into a playbook, with links to related parts of Market Dominance Guys’ podcasts. He references the episode, “You’d Better Believe It,” with Matt Forbes, Head of Strategic Accounts at ConnectAndSell. “Listen to Matt Forbes,” Henry advises passionately, “to the tone he uses when he talks about belief.” Henry extolls the cold-calling virtues of Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s new Flight School Division, in “The Secret of Her Success” episode, and the value he gained from her belief that she’s the equal of anyone she speaks to on the phone. Believe me — you’ll want to hear the complete conversation between Chris, Corey, and Henry to get the full value from this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Borrowing from the Best.”
When the Student Is Ready, the Teacher Will Appear Lead That Cold Call With Trust, Not Value About Our Guest
Henry Wojdyla is Founder and Principal of RealSource Group. RealSource Group is retained by institutional real estate investors, enhancing their speed and surety of execution through “off-market” acquisitions of medical office buildings and surgical centers.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business. This week's Market Dominance Guys podcast wraps up a terrific three-part conversation between our guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, and their guest, Henry Wojdyla, Founder and Principal of RealSource Group.
Announcer (00:37):
Today, Henry has gone so far as to distill all he learned into a playbook, with links to related parts of Market Dominance Guys’ podcasts. He references the episode, “You’d Better Believe It,” with Matt Forbes, Head of Strategic Accounts at ConnectAndSell.
Announcer (01:08):
“Listen to Matt Forbes,” Henry advises passionately, “to the tone he uses when he talks about belief.” Henry extolls the cold-calling virtues of Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s new Flight School Division, in “The Secret of Her Success” episode, and the value he gained from her belief that she’s the equal of anyone she speaks to on the phone. Believe me — you’ll want to hear the complete conversation between Chris, Corey, and Henry to get the full value from this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Borrowing from the Best.”
Corey Frank (01:48):
So the initial cold calls you made, BC and AD, before Chris and after-
Henry Wojdyla (01:53):
Yes. Yes.
Corey Frank (01:54):
So with the croc brain and now that knowledge afterwards, you were leading with in essence, again, talk about orange world, the cold cognitions, data-driven, assuming folks would subscribe to the intellectual attraction of a deal from the numbers, from the status of the firm. And then post, you led with what? How did you establish that trust out of the gate to have better results than before?
Henry Wojdyla (02:27):
Well, again, it wasn't really so much... Before Chris, BC, was not so much about, again, the firm, it wasn't about patting your chest about who we were, but it was just almost probably cramming facts down people's throats before they had the chance to finish the word hello. Now I have no shame in being honest about this. I've pretty much wholesale stolen Chris's approach, the 27 seconds, even the approach to frankly discovery meetings.
Henry Wojdyla (02:53):
It's really about, I think, getting the counterparty on the phone in a psychological condition. You can actually deliver something of value to them, but you can't get there without trust. So I've really become a disciple. And that's part of what drove frankly, a pretty big redraft. We have a playbook that I use heavily, but there was a lot of editing that went on to that when I really stumbled across this whole concept of leading with trust as opposed to value.
Chris Beall (03:20):
When you pulled up the Market Dominance Guys' part of that book and the other book when we were in Seattle, I will admit it, I shed a tear or two. Really, I was so touched. I didn't know that anybody was ever going to use this stuff. So you didn't just use it. You used it with precision and thoughtfulness and commitment. It was one of those moments that I thought, "Okay, what Corey and I have been up to all this time might actually be worthwhile," because you always looked for, "Is anybody going to get it?" Well, you went way beyond getting it.
Henry Wojdyla (04:00):
Well, it wasn't until I really came. Again, I really can't take any credit. I don't know if it's Oscar Wilde or Pablo Picasso or whoever I've heard various attributions to. But the idea of the best thing to do is frankly steal the best ideas. And I'm nakedly admitting that I've stolen the best ideas because they weren't my own, but it was immediately apparent upon doing that binge-listening. That was the disconnect.
Henry Wojdyla (04:26):
Don't get me wrong, the prior approach worked. It certainly worked, but it really wasn't a best practice. And again, I can hearken back to a few key operating principles for me. One is the constant accumulation of best practices and I'm totally agnostic to either where they came from or that they have any particular shelf life. If there's something better comes along, the prior one's gone. I don't care.
Corey Frank (04:50):
Absolutely. The concept of building trust. We've had a lot of episodes, probably more than half of our episodes I'd say, Chris, it comes up one form or another. And you referenced Warren and we had him on a few times talking about that certainly. And Chris has had many great episodes and riffs where we talked about tonality, and in the Sandler world, nurturing. And Matt Forbes is exceptional at that mark, here from ConnectAndSell. He's exceptional at that. Cherryl is, as you write, one of the masters of our craft at that.
Corey Frank (05:21):
Do you find that talking now, being aware because you can't unsee it, you can't unknow it now, is that when you're talking to other asset managers or property owners or investors, that the tonality, the pacing has changed as well as your approach and has that made an impact? And I'm asking this under the guise, Henry, of there's a lot of folks in our sales profession who say, "You can't cold call. It doesn't work." Chris and I, we love engaging in discussions with people like that. And for our competitors, you're right. It doesn't work, so don't use it. It's a waste of your time. But for those that are open, how much of what you do is this nurturing, tonality, pacing, and what difference have you seen by employing that more trust-based approach with your voice as well?
Henry Wojdyla (06:25):
It's an all the above answer. And speaking of feedback loops, here's another one maybe in the micro, in the framework of a 27-second cold call, hopefully maybe even less. It's the idea that if you... The other thing you guys have talked about by the way is belief, the power of belief. And I would say if the power of belief is there, it frankly takes care of the rest. And if you believe not just in the power of discovery meaning but the fact that you can offer something, ultimately a value, that the pathway is trust, it almost really takes care of the rest. And I don't mean that to be either a glib or partial answer to your question, but it all comes together, I think, in that essence.
Chris Beall (07:07):
I'll let you jump later. We've done the experiment. So we've done the experiment of having a group that we were in Corey's business at that time, a little bit side business of ours. And we were helping out a customer who really wanted to have somebody else call and set appointments for their people. So we had a very talented group. We got the message right. This all took about 24 hours to set up. And they went like this, fail, fail, fail for three consecutive days. So I did the statistical math and I said, "Well, okay, so now we have failed forever. I get it. We've succeeded in putting together a fail forever group."
Chris Beall (07:47):
And this was a pure skin in the game deal by the way. So we were going to get nothing unless we started succeeding. So I thought it was interesting. So I asked a question of the person running the group. I said, "Do these reps who are doing this calling truly believe in the potential value of the meeting that they're offering, even in a downside case for them as far as they're concerned or our customer, that no business ever comes out of it?" And I got the following back. So I thought, "Well, okay, your silence tells me the answer is no, they don't, because you would have said yes if they do.
Chris Beall (08:24):
Let's go find a person who attended one of those meetings who did not move forward and got value. Let them talk directly to the group about the value that they got, about what they learned." And they did that. Nothing else changed, no coaching on tonality, no change of script, no change of personnel. And we went from zero to 27 meetings the next day. So we've actually done the positive experiment which is introduce belief. In the absence of belief, we found out that technique was ineffective, and it was ineffective at a zero level. And I believe it's because of the value chain theory which is a missing link in a value chain gives you a non-value chain. It's not a chain. It's just not a chain.
Chris Beall (09:11):
And the anchor, I came to believe very quickly in the value chain around initiating relationships that can lead to exploring the possibility of solving problems. The anchor link on that chain is the rep's belief in the potential value of that meeting for the human being they're speaking with should no business ever happen. And I've told people this many, many times, if you were to change one thing about your team, change that. Not easy, but change that because as you just said Henry, if you take care of that, actually technique becomes almost a nice to have. It's better to have good technique than bad technique, but it's like if...
Chris Beall (09:58):
Here's a golf analogy. If you believe to make the ball go up in the air, you have to hit from below the ball and make it go up in the air, you're screwed for all time as a golfer. As in all cases, you can't make that happen consistently because there's this thing called the earth between you and the ball on that trajectory. And you're going to encounter it and find out that you can't actually make the earth counter rotate fast enough to not take energy away from your shot. That is when you dig in. You're not that guy. Who stopped the earth from spinning? Who was that? Corey, your Bible is better than mine.
Corey Frank (10:30):
Superman.
Chris Beall (10:30):
Doesn't some guy... No, no, no. Someone biblical. Anyway, I thought I had you. I thought you were my man. That's one of those beliefs that when you change that belief in somebody as a golfer and they start hitting down on the ball believing that that makes the ball go up, magic starts to happen because they have a shot. Now, do you work on their technique? You bet. I'd rather have more club head speed than less. How do I get it? Doing something counterintuitive.
Chris Beall (11:03):
I have to hinge my wrist and not control and bunch of stuff that drives you crazy as a golfer. But when you learn it, it's fun. But I think that you just hit it, Henry. Belief, correct belief takes care of almost everything and will actually take care of enough to make you be in a market-dominant position. I actually believe you can get all the way to a market-dominant position by changing one thing.
Henry Wojdyla (11:30):
I couldn't agree more. And it's absolute Pareto principle all the way down. It's turtles all the way down. I would encourage your listeners, hopefully the folks that are listening to this, if they haven't been familiarized with the earlier episodes, go back and listen to Matt Forbes, or as Chris calls him, big Matt Forbes, because it's amazing to listen to those episodes. And those are some of the ones that I didn't put in my transcriptions that really took it home to me.
Henry Wojdyla (11:58):
And I would say even on the [finite 00:12:00], there's a feedback loop there. Listen to the tone in which Matt Forbes talks about the belief in the episode. My God, speaking of biblical references, it was like Saul to Paul, listening to him. Just going through the transformation. You would hear the sincerity in his voice in your episode. By the way, the versions that I keep, the actual live documents of the transcripts, I keep hyperlinked back to the actual recordings.
Henry Wojdyla (12:30):
And the reason I do that is I would actually want to go back and listen to the tonality of Matt Forbes describing that or whatever episode you might choose. But to your golf analogy, it was crazy, Chris, that you just referenced that because I was thinking the same exact thought of if you could hit down on the ball, it's at least a Pareto. You're at least 80% of the way there. Sure. Are you going to be on the PGA tour? Of course not. But have you taken away 80% of the burden? Probably. And I think belief is the rough equivalent of hitting down on the ball on the cold call.
Chris Beall (13:40):
Wow. That's a good one. I had no idea. We've never spoken about this golf thing. This is quite interesting to me. So I've taught a lot of people how to hit golf balls. And my point is I can teach you to hit a ball that's up in the air and get all the physics of the swing right. But until you believe that hitting down in the ball is not just a good idea but is the only idea, you're screwed because the earth is really big. It's 25,000 miles in diameter and weighs a lot and it's spinning. So it takes a whole 24 hours to go around. The surface of the earth is moving pretty quick and you're not going to be able to make it move as fast as a golf ball in the opposite direction. That's if you're, by the way, hitting toward the sun rather than away from the sun, but you know that Corey.
Henry Wojdyla (14:28):
And if you're at the equator, it's a little bit more burdensome than elsewhere. But in all seriousness, Chris, it is really amazing that you can take the most simple or what sounds like simple principles, be it on the golf course or in the context of a cold call and the weight that it carries, the disproportional weight that it carries is profound. And the belief, I think everything stems from it. Getting back, Corey, to your question more directly, the tonality and all those things, they do absolutely matter. But I think where you can let technique move from technique to frankly more just genuine communication, when the foundation is built upon trust and belief. Trust in the part of what you're trying to establish with the counterparty and belief in what you have on offer for them.
Corey Frank (15:17):
Absolutely. And I think you're a testament, Henry, that it's not just germane to a manager or director level, it's that you can communicate and connect that trust vector at the highest levels, the C-levels of the world here just from those same principles and they apply.
Henry Wojdyla (15:38):
Absolutely. And on this second year anniversary of Market Dominance Guys, I will also make another referral. Please go back and listen to the Cherryl Turner episodes. Cherryl talks about, and Chris will attest to that fact, you frequently mention that Cherryl is the world leader in feeling she's the equal of anyone that she speaks to on the phone. That's absolutely right. So getting back to your question, Corey, it's a belief in many ways. It's a belief about what you have on offer. It's about a belief in yourself.
Henry Wojdyla (16:08):
And again, easier said than done, but it's applicable all the entire range, up and down the corporate stack depending on the organization that the individual works for. This does not have to be purely the domain of the senior execs or the C-suite that can execute against this type of approach. And it's more than approach. Again, it's a belief system, and I think that's the most profound thing. So anyone from frankly the most junior person with at least some modicum of training all the way up, there's really no reason why this can't be applied throughout.
Corey Frank (16:43):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (16:44):
It's funny. Simon Sinek talks about start with why and the why of why is without the proper why, without the real why, without digging into the why, why, then your belief is fake. And fake belief is the worst kind of thing in the world. The one thing you don't want to fake is belief. And I hear a lot of stuff in business. I've heard this many, many times through my career that there's a fake-it-till-you-make-it thing. And it's always made me bristle. In fact, it's not personal, very few things other than raw broccoli make me want to throw up. I love cooked broccoli by the way, but I'm sensitive to the chemicals in raw broccoli.
Chris Beall (17:23):
It's a protein that's folded wrong for my system. That does. When somebody says fake it till you make it, I just think, "I just spent a little time understanding what's underneath this you don't have to fake it," because if you're in a business of having to fake it, you're a charlatan. That's the definition of a charlatan. Somebody who convinces others of value that is not there. That's it. So I hate fake it till you make it. If anybody watching this is a big fake-it-till-you-make-it fan, why don't you fake some sincerity and see if you can get me to buy your thesis? But it suggests some pre-work in the real world.
Chris Beall (18:03):
And I'll go back to being a fuller brush man. I used to knock on the door, and I think some people listening to this know this, I would say, "Hi, I'm Chris Beall. I'm your new fuller brush man. You probably don't know what a fuller brush is. I sure don't." And I'd stand there. Well, that was the absolute, God's honest truth. I didn't know. And then, inevitably, they would ask me, "What can I help you?" Well, that's a pretty good question to get as the very first utterance from a prospect. Can I help you? It's not bad. There's certainly stuff that's lower on the totem pole net.
Chris Beall (18:33):
But my point is when I got to the end of that week, because I had offered to go do some research and only come back if I found something that I thought would change their life, I did the research and I found one or two items that I thought would really change their life. That belief was what allowed me to come back, not, "Here's what I'm going to say about it. I've got this trick." So sometimes I think people look at the breakthrough script stuff that we do with ConnectAndSell and they go, "It's a trick." Well, it's a trick but when used as a trick, it doesn't work. It's like a trick that evaporates when you try to use it as a trick.
Chris Beall (19:13):
And I think that's the key to all of this. And I've always thought the beauty of sales is sales disciplines companies to offer value in the modern world, not the tragedy of the crossroads, in the modern world because it doesn't work as well when you don't sincerely believe in the value. So either the salesperson has to be a charlatan or a fool, or they have to be a sincere exponent of the potential value. Those are the only three positions you can take. And if you're watching this and you want to take one of those positions, some of you will want to be charlatans right there. There are a thousand books on sales that say, "Be a charlatan."
Chris Beall (19:52):
Many of them use the word persuade. Cause somebody to believe something that they don't believe for your convenience. That's the core idea around a lot of sales training. Some are fools. They're just happy fools and go through it. They get away with it. But actually, you as a salesperson are the selection and filtering mechanism for society to find out what's of value because you choose first what you're going to sell. And part of your job is choosing the good stuff. Henry's got good stuff. Corey? On occasion. Me? I don't know. Many people think I'm a charlatan. Cherryl certainly did when we first met. And then she thought I was a fool and then she moved on from there.
Corey Frank (20:39):
Was it funny that again, just to tie it back just briefly, Chris, to your point about the apple and going back to the office and this concept of going back to the office is that the belief system used to say, as we've talked about many times, is we need to be here physically to touch, to collaborate, to whiteboard, to eat lunch, to commute, to share the shared sacrifice of the accident on the one-on-one.
Corey Frank (21:07):
And we had to detour and that's why we're late. We had to have those shared experiences. And now for the last year or so, you're saying, "Wait a minute. That belief was wrong because my production actually went up, not down. And now you're telling me I've got to disavow that belief system that we've lived in this world for the last 18 months or so and go back to that old belief system." That's a little tough to put that genie back.
Chris Beall (21:36):
It is, it is. Well, it's going to be tough to put a lot of them back and they're not going back. The beauty of physics is it tells us what's going to happen. Physics is all about saying if you can give me a pretty rough setup of what the current situation is, I'll tell you what's going to happen. And we have a situation here where the physics of people and artifacts, mechanisms, systems, ideas, this thing called the internet which is still an underbet by the way, still an underbet. And here's the case where the internet was underbet because it wasn't properly bet on for its ability to deliver people to each other in business.
Chris Beall (22:22):
That was a huge underbet. That's probably the biggest value that we will get. It's not the ability to go on and buy something and have it show up at your house. That's really cool. But actually it's displacing something you could have done by going to Walmart. It's like a small displacement, not a big displacement. This is a big displacement. And also our circle of I'll call it trusted friends that we can do business with grows massively. And it doesn't mean we don't want to get together. Henry, what did we do after a few conversations? Let's get together.
Chris Beall (22:56):
But did we get together at your office? No. Did we get together at my office? Well, I don't have one so that would be difficult. We got together at a hotel that was nice enough. And we did that thing. But we don't do it every day. We also got together for brunch the other day in Denver, which was super delightful, brought a third party. And here's my first party right over there. And by the way, her assessment of you, Henry, is that I tell you, she would throw me over for you if you weren't married. I don't know how that would work out, but I'm just saying. She says otherwise but I could read it right there at the table. There're no difficulties picking that one out.
Henry Wojdyla (23:33):
It was an absolute pleasure getting to meet your fiancée. And Helen was just tremendous. But yes, I am a taken man. In fact, I have to credit my wife for introducing me to [inaudible 00:23:46]. If it wasn't for her, I would not know the PD goodness and the campfire in your mouth, deliciousness that is [inaudible 00:23:53]. But I do think Corey, again, just to bring some of these things back together, maybe the bigger picture in terms of the office work environment is that we've been historically getting around the wrong water coolers. It's about schlepping the work. All the agita that is getting to and from as opposed to...
Henry Wojdyla (24:14):
I think one of the most powerful things, honestly, is the ability to share my screen because I can share my screen with colleagues and we can collaborate in real time. And weirdly enough, some of the key team members of my group, Chris Howard, Chris you've had the chance to meet, we are most productive when we actually just get on zoom and screen share. We don't typically actually do video like what we're doing now with each other, but we screen-share. And it's imminently powerful because we can collaborate in real time. And I think that's the water cooler to get around. It's one. There're others as well. But I get it.
Henry Wojdyla (24:52):
On the one hand, part of me understands where Tim Cook's coming from and not because of the sunk cost bias or the hugely enormous Norman Foster-designed expensive campus. But what does become apparent is that there is something about culture for larger companies in particular, but it's not necessarily about the headaches of getting to and from work. That's not really what the culture should be built around. Like I've said earlier, I think the next year and a half to two years for a whole host of reasons, negotiating power, real estate leases coming up and due, it's going to be extremely interesting to watch how these market dynamics play out in terms of the top 20% and what their relationship is with their employers.
Chris Beall (25:39):
So you know that we had a whole episode with Tom Zheng. Where does Tom live? I'm not sure. I think it's Toronto moving to Ottawa. Where are Tom and I every single day for an hour of my time? The most precious hour of my workday every day is spent in the tender arms of my data concierge, letting my curiosity explore what might be true that I don't know about. And we've never met, but we have a very close relationship, as close as I think it's possible in a working relationship frankly, and it's all through screen-sharing. We keep the video on because we think it's a little earthy and it's fun.
Chris Beall (26:22):
And I'm often, I'll admit it, I'm sometimes still in my robe at that point. It's only 11:00 AM. If Hugh Hefner can do it, why not Chris Beall? But the idea of being able to do something as deep as that. Think about how deep that is. We're getting down into... We're taking 60, 70 million rows of data and finding truths in there that we didn't know were there. And we've never met but we do screen share about an hour a day.
Henry Wojdyla (26:53):
I would make a case that the screen share may be the most intimate business relationship I'm going to have in today's world, more so than the video.
Chris Beall (27:00):
I agree.
Henry Wojdyla (27:01):
Because you're putting your work product up and forward.
Chris Beall (27:06):
Well, you know how I sell ConnectAndSell. It's pretty simple. I get on with somebody and I say, "Would you like to see how we manage our own company using ConnectAndSell?" And everybody says, "Yes." And I just do a screen share and I bring up live how we're doing. I've never looked at it by the way. I make a point of never knowing what's going to pop up on the screen because it's more fun. We can all be surprised together. They're surprised that anybody at all could be having a hundred, whatever conversations. In a day, it might be 40 or 50. My surprise is, "Gosh, I didn't know Rob was killing it today like this. He stuffed five meetings already and it's only nine o'clock," or whatever it is. So it is that, that screen share is so much more intimate than the video.
Chris Beall (27:51):
The video is nice and all, but it's a little unnerving for some people, but the screen share is true sharing. There it is. It's the screen. It's the work. It's the meaning of this thing. Now let's dig in. It invites faster, deeper, more honest digging in, I think, than any whiteboard. And I made this point on another comment on LinkedIn. I have a hard time keeping them straight because I do it very early in the morning when I'm not fully awake. It probably shows in the writing. But one of the points that Helen reminded me of the other day is when you're in the physical office, certain people physically dominate. That shouldn't surprise anybody that that's true, but it should shock anybody who thinks it's good. It's not good. It's not good.
Chris Beall (28:38):
If you're the person who can physically dominate a meeting and you learned those tricks on the playground as a kid because that's where you learn them. You learn physical dominance on the playground. And then you're applying that at work, you're robbing the group of value from the participation of those who are physically dominated. And Henry, you're not a small guy. I can practice physical dominance pretty well. Corey tends to keep a baseball bat behind him in his office just in case anybody doesn't know what he's all about. And we feel okay about the step up. Actually, it's not okay. It's not okay at all.
Chris Beall (29:20):
Somebody recounted today that somebody who is blind was using ConnectAndSell today using some screen technology, not using our mobile app by the way which actually is designed to be used in a car and by people who can't see or can't see as well, but had a great experience. What I thought about is, "Wow, this isn't happening in the office. If was in the office, I don't care what you say your values are. That person who can't see with their eyes to find their way around is at a fundamental cultural disadvantage that they have to overcome." And that is not true when we're even just talking to each other. And the screen share is a little tricky because something's got to... Maybe the screen-share doesn't work so well for a person who's blind, but I can tell you the physical office is nasty. It's just bad.
Henry Wojdyla (30:10):
Look, zoom fatigue is real, but I personally believe that zoom fatigue is largely when people have to put on these so-called zoom mullet of nice top, maybe if anything below, but that's of really no value. It's really what's on the screen. It's the work product. It's the honesty to show what you've been working on. And I think there's a real actually very beautiful distillation that goes on in the ability to actually collaborate, truly collaborate with people by sharing screens, sharing work product, sharing thinking because that's what really work product is.
Henry Wojdyla (30:41):
It's really your thinking around whatever is the problem you're trying to solve. Zoom, it doesn't really matter which platform. It's the idea that you could actually collaborate in real time. It doesn't matter that they're either on the other side of the cubicle, which actually in that case, they're going to probably bias to walking around and looking at your screen, which isn't really actually as productive. So I think there's a lot of really powerful dynamics are going to begin to unfold here over time. They're starting to happen now because we've been talking about them, but give it, again, 18 to 24 months, maybe less. And I think we're going to be in an entirely different environment in terms of how the top tier, that Pareto principle, 20% Chris that you talk about is really going to be defining the terms of engagement with employers.
Corey Frank (31:25):
Absolutely. Well, great. Well gentlemen, I think collectively we are out of scotch and tequila, and that means-
Henry Wojdyla (31:33):
I still have some more.
Corey Frank (31:34):
We have a little bit more.
Henry Wojdyla (31:34):
It's a fresh bottle.
Corey Frank (31:37):
You got a whole bottle. Fresh peat goodness there. Absolutely. So I'll tell you what, I don't think we've had any guests and I don't anticipate any guests that we're ever going to have on Market Dominance Guys where we have this hierarchy of IQs where I don't bring up the rear. And I think this is also no exception to this one, Henry. So I always tell Chris that I prodded him to nefariously start this program on the books so I can suck all these ideas and use them in my businesses. And today is no exception with another three or four pages of notes. So I get the front row seat.
Henry Wojdyla (32:13):
I'm doing the same thing. I'm doing the same thing, Corey. I copy and steal religiously.
Corey Frank (32:19):
It's wonderful. And it's great to have you part of the Market Dominance team for the markets. We sound like we're an English company now, markets dominant team. Maybe it's a little bit more European.
Chris Beall (32:27):
Markets, maths. Are we going to talk about maths?
Corey Frank (32:31):
Maybe your friend Jerry Hill, maybe he will have another one on the other side and we'll change the spelling of one of those words to make it more UK, Queen's English if you will. So Henry, thank you very much for the time. I am sure this is not the last time that you're going to be on the Market Dominance Guys. You have way too many great ideas rolling around there. And I just love the interchange between you and Chris and that's something for all of our market dominance listeners to look forward to. So until next time, this is Corey Frank with Chris Beall and Henry Wojdyla at the Market Dominance Guys.
Announcer (33:10):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern, innovative sales and scripting toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com. Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
This week, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank are into part two of their three-part conversation with Henry Wojdyla, Founder and Principal of RealSource Group. And what a conversation it is! Chris was surprised to discover Henry had binge-listened to every Market Dominance Guys’ podcast in one weekend. You might wonder why the rush until you hear the questions Henry was wrestling with while attempting to finetune his business: “How can I systematize what I’m doing?” “How can I maximize the efficacy of the sales practitioner?” “How can we create systems that are somehow universal?” Right here on Market Dominance Guys, Henry found what he was looking for!
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One answer came from Chris’ advice about what you lead with when you are that invisible stranger calling a prospect: Do you immediately trot out your company’s value? Or do you attempt to establish trust first? Henry confesses, “I was obsessed with the idea of leading with value.” He says his approach was data-driven, data-forward. But as Chris has repeated in his discussions with other guests, “Trust always has to precede presenting your value.” Henry is a true believer now in establishing trust first and restates it this way: “You create trust by essentially alleviating the pain of who you are as the attacking entity.” Join Henry, Corey, and Chris as they explore more about calming a prospect’s fear of cold callers on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Lead That Cold Call With Trust, Not Value.”
About Our Guest
Henry Wojdyla is Founder and Principal of RealSource Group. RealSource Group is retained by institutional real estate investors, enhancing their speed and surety of execution through “off-market” acquisitions of medical office buildings and surgical centers.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Announcer (00:27):
This week, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank are into part two of their three-part conversation with Henry Wojdyla, Founder and Principal of Real Source Group. And what a conversation that is. Chris was surprised to discover that Henry had binge listened to every Market Dominance Guys podcast in one weekend.
Announcer (00:46):
You might wonder why the rush until you hear the questions Henry was wrestling with while attempting to fine-tune his business. How can I systemize what I'm doing? How can I maximize the efficacy of the sales practitioner? How can we create systems that are somehow universal. Right here on Market Dominance Guys, Henry found what he was looking for. One answer came from Chris's advice about what you lead with when you were that invisible stranger calling a prospect. Do you immediately trot out your company's value, or do you attempt to establish trust first?
Announcer (01:20):
Henry confesses, I was obsessed with the idea of leading with value. He says his approach was data-driven, data forward, but as Chris has repeated on his discussions with other guests, trust always has to proceed presenting your value. Henry is a true believer now in establishing trust first and restates it this way. You create trust by essentially alleviating the pain of who you are as the attacking entity.
Announcer (01:46):
Join Henry, Corey and Chris, as they explore more about calming a prospect's fear of cold callers on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, Lead That Cold Call With Trust, Not Value.
Corey Frank (02:07):
Well, we talk a lot about, there's only really three things you can do in business from a strategy perspective. You can do something with your current situation and move it from a position to a better position. You can see who you have together as team members or board members or capital and do something different with those people. Or it sounds like what you've done clearly is take what you have and make it run better, faster, cheaper, which is expanded the bottleneck in some way with your ability to kind of replicate in this iron man concept that [inaudible 00:02:40] talks about.
Henry Wojdyla (02:40):
Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think that's an interesting way to parse that earlier question. And to your point, a hundred percent. I think I've been an absolutely obsessed with figuring out what are best practices and putting best practices on top of each other, in a way that's cohesive. You can't just apply maybe one system that doesn't necessarily align with another, but we've been very judicious in the way we look at things. I'd say from a business perspective, if I was going to really simplify it, one of my theories I'm trying to play out over a period of years is how can I shift from opex to capex or operating expenses to capital expenses. And the way I'm doing that is by really heavily investing in systems, which can both be literal systems in terms of technological systems, but also systems of practice and systematizing the way in which I operate.
Henry Wojdyla (03:26):
And I think one of the things I'm really keenly desirous to prove out here in the coming years, I think with Chris, it's going to be very interesting ride here over the next 12 to 18 months with ConnectAndSell is how can we really maximize the efficacy of the sales practitioner. And to your point earlier, Corey, about the way to apply and readapt business models into other either industries, another way that's something too that I've kind of been always cognizant of in the back of my mind that we could templatize this approach. On the one hand, you're hearing me talk very, very specifically about the dynamics and the realities of the TAM that I focus on, but the systems in which we get there are largely replicable to entirely different industries or sectors.
Corey Frank (04:12):
Sure. Certainly the industries. When you dominate and as you continue to dominate the medical space for the asset class for real estate to medical buildings, again, this is part of what you do in your business, but are there designs the same template can be applied to other kinds of broader types of commercial real estate as well, correct?
Henry Wojdyla (04:32):
Absolutely. In many ways, there's a broader, theoretical discussion that I think Chris has had been [inaudible 00:04:38] on that just recently on LinkedIn, but we've had some conversations about other property types that we've been picking particularly on commercial office. That's a different topic for probably a different podcast. Suffice to say, yes, it absolutely can be applied to different industries. And that's been something that I've been, like I said earlier, I'm cognizant about, how can we create systems that are really somewhat universal in their nature.
Henry Wojdyla (05:02):
And one of the things that's been floating around the back of my mind is wouldn't it be interesting to not just harvest the physical assets, the physical real estate, the bricks and mortar, but actually go out and acquire these local and regional ownership groups at the corporate level, because then you can actually get some of the other services that you need to really operate a portfolio of assets, things like asset management, property management, leasing. These are terms obviously in our world, but you can go out and harvest companies in the exact same strategy that we're doing it. So there's broader principles at play. And like I said earlier, I think really one of the theories I have is that I think you can go a long ways with capital investment as opposed to operating expense investment in terms of necessarily growing headcount. I've always said from day one, when I start this business, I will never consider the success of this business based on a head count. Ever
Corey Frank (05:54):
Absolutely. And I think with ConnectAndSell and certainly the marketing that they have that's part of what I want to focus on is that leverage and ConnectAndSell what's been able to do for you. But you bring up an interesting point. And maybe this is a good segue too, because Chris, we have seen now with the economy on the uptick a little bit, and certainly the announcement from Apple, that they're requiring their folks in the office, what, Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, I think it was. Kind of an odd amount of days. It's like why not just make it three concurrent days, if you're going to do something, maybe there's a method to that madness.
Chris Beall (06:29):
They're trying to get some gesture out, I don't know what it is.
Corey Frank (06:31):
It's got to be something like that. But certainly that's where I was leaning into the commercial real estate is that as broadly lucrative, Chris and I have done a number of episodes certainly on, especially when COVID first hit about the need for my three-pound brain to be next to somebody's five-pound brain. And what, within that six-foot proximity, I think it is, and how critical that some employers still feel that that is correct, Chris.
Chris Beall (06:59):
Yeah. I actually commented on the Apple thing. It's kind of funny. I just put a LinkedIn comment out there yesterday on what I think is... Well, as I said, Apple will find themselves on the wrong side of history and employers like ourselves are essentially, I will say with vis-a-vis, our employees are now ultimately no more powerful than we are. Vis-a-vis our customers. It's the same game. As employees have become full-on customers of the corporations they work for. And that sea change will not ever change. That is a done deal. It's been coming for a long time, but I needed a tsunami to wash the beach away and expose the bluff. And now it's a big step function and the employees are up there on the top of the bluff. The main players are down on the beach, wondering when the next tsunami is going to show up.
Chris Beall (07:51):
So these statements of you got to be in the office, beg the question of who you is and willing to include their top 20%. And the answer is pretty simple. Only if they want to. So top 20% used to do all sorts of things, make all sorts of compromises, oh, we'll go live on Mercer Island because it has a great school system, blah, blah, blah. And it's close enough to Microsoft. Well, and it's close enough to Microsoft is no longer a relevant consideration. So now the question is [inaudible 00:08:23] like Mercer island live there? And if you like Quail Creek, Arizona go live there. It's like, you can live wherever you want, work wherever you want if you're a top 20% knowledge worker today and it makes the union movements of the late 1800's and early 1900's look like nothing in terms of power, because the unions were always bustable mathematically.
Chris Beall (08:47):
They had a serious problem, which is the workers needed the money. They needed to make that paycheck. And you can provide some insurance, strength in numbers kind of insurance, but you can't provide enough insurance to have them make another hand gesture to the employers and continue that with a lot of stare-down power. There's issues. The stare-down power of the modern top 20% employee and knowledge work is right now infinite, and it's infinite and growing, which is even more interesting. And all employers should take note. Now, one of the things we really like about, accidentally by the way, about our own product is it makes it fun to work from home with family. So Cheryl Turner who's been on this show, goes to the park with her three year old and they play on the swings while she talks to CEOs, that would be work-life balance in reality, that is work and life truly coming together synergistically to support each other without sacrifice of either. She is the best cold caller in the world, talking to CEOs.
Chris Beall (09:54):
And I bet she's a heck of a mom, too, playing with her three-year-old. She can drive her 11-year-old to school, but it's her work. She's doing it while she's driving and talking to CEOs. So technology's capabilities that make that easier are going to be a big deal. But the first thing is, man, these executives running these companies got to get over themselves. They do not have the strength, the capacity, the staying power to tell their top 20% of their employees screw you, I'm going to tell you where you're going to live, I'm going to tell you where you're going to spend your time, on the road going back and forth to work, I'm going to tell you which days you have to be there because otherwise the whole thing doesn't happen.
Chris Beall (10:35):
At least Apple's right on that. That has to be Monday something, something, it can't become whenever you want because those other three-pound brains won't be there. So that's idiotic. So they're at least trying, but what they're trying can't be accomplished. Now, the other thing is for those who care, this is the real estate thing here, the conference business and the real estate around conferences and around meeting each other somewhere nice, that business is going to go crazy. That business is going to see a renaissance that is unheard of in the history of hospitality. And it's because there's never been anything other than jet air travel in the history of hospitality that caused every place to be in place online. And this makes every place in play because guess what? We already have jet air travel. So every nice place to get together is suddenly in play competing with those office campuses.
Chris Beall (11:33):
And I can tell you who's going to win. The nice places you go just to be with people are going to be the kind of funny place that had, as my mother would always say, that high school, is that a prison or a national guard armory. That's what she'd always say. They make those buildings like they're one or the other. Look at the average corporate campus has those kinds of qualities. Whereas the four seasons doesn't. The Rosewood, the Edgewater, these places are really, really nice. You want to go meet, go meet there. So there's a dynamic that I've said before on the show, people are under betting like crazy on the work from home, work from anywhere top 20% do whatever they want dynamic. That under bet right now I would say will turn out historically to have been at least off by a factor of five.
Chris Beall (13:03):
If you want to make money now just pay attention to this. Ignore Henry. He does hard work. He has his brain and everything, he has to think. This is the thing you can do with no brain whatsoever.
Henry Wojdyla (13:15):
Well, Chris, it's interesting that you're mentioning, and this has actually nothing to do with the fact that I'm in the commercial real estate space generally, or I should really say specifically. I think real estate is going to have a huge piece of this. And we all heard a million times that COVID accelerated trends that are already in place. This is clearly true here. I think in the case of commercial office space, to be clear, totally different from medical office space. If it's not mission-critical, it's fungible. And what's really interesting is I think the timeframe in which employee dynamic is going to play out in part, not in total, but a key variable is going to be the loss cost bias or sunk cost bias.
Henry Wojdyla (13:54):
And what you're going to see, I think, over time is as these very expensive office leases begin to expire and office leases in commercial space tend to run in larger markets, 5 to 10 years, maybe average it out to 3 to 7 as a range, but the Jamie Diamonds of the world, these large CEOs, Tim Cook's Apple, of course they own their facilities, they're a little bit different, but at the end of the day, it's as these leases begin to expire, I think there'll be a little bit less pressure on the C-suite to force people to come into an office just because they're paying rent on it. And I won't [inaudible 00:14:33] to all the phenomenal points Chris that you've made, but I think really the, as you said, the top 20% is going to really have... Really the world is their oyster. I think there'll largely be able to dictate over time increasingly over time, partly because of the real estate dynamics, where they can work with increasing conviction.
Henry Wojdyla (14:52):
And as you've said here and elsewhere, and if you think about just the tremendous amount of loss of time, and if there's one asset we know that we can never get back is time. We can get money back theoretically and frequently you can, you can get other investments back, but you can never get time back. And I just have always been amazed that people are willing to sacrifice so much of their lives, maybe they don't have a choice in many cases, about the commutation that they take on every day.
Henry Wojdyla (15:17):
And that's something that's a really big expense, not just for the individual, but actually for their employer. And while it seems amazingly obvious, somehow it seems to be lost in a lot of the C-suite at least in the larger corporations. It's kind of an institutional imperative in a different way and I've alluded to that earlier in terms of the decision or not decision to essentially sell assets. It's really the large-scale kind of institutional imperative, the inertia is something that's going to have to kind of take place over a period of time now. So it's going to be a very interesting gear shift over the next 18, 24 months in terms of how this plays out.
Corey Frank (15:51):
Well, isn't it fascinating that the tech stack, particularly what we've talked about a lot ConnectAndSell, reading signals from noise parallels, that same type of restriction or coming together of efficiencies that you have the top 20% team member now who can thumb his nose at his employer and now can do what Cheryl's doing at 20%, 50%, 100% higher than she was doing working for their employer by doing it now. And I have the balance to do it with my child 15 feet away on the jungle gym.
Henry Wojdyla (16:33):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (16:34):
Yeah. And it brings up another point, which is if employers have got to learn that their employees are our customers, that means they have to play a different trust game than they're playing now. And one thing we haven't spoken of here that Henry you said was a pivotal moment of flip the pancake moment for you was you went through the process of kind of finding this and that and eventually wandering into it or being lured in or whatever to this Market Dominance Guys thing. And you need to tell the story of the binge-listening because you're the second person ever to do it that I know of. And I sure hope anybody else who so interesting that you binge listen to a Market Dominance Guys, please call Corey Frank at about 11:00 PM Pacific or later because he's free then to talk to you.
Chris Beall (17:23):
So you had a bit of a moment regarding this question that we've explored a lot, which is what do you lead with? Once you get past fear, what do you lead with? Value or trust? And the tradition in sales is to lead with value, which is in the first part of a relationship, a failing proposition because the other party is not ready for a value. That is trust proceeds value. You can't listen to value cleanly because in order to listen to value, I have to be prepared to confess my problems. And I do not confess to somebody I don't trust. So that's the little broken triangle that sales was built on for years and years and years. The idea of being well, you're not ever going to see me again anyway, so [inaudible 00:18:09] some value, right? That's it. That's what I call the tragedy of the crossroads.
Chris Beall (18:13):
The sales were made at the crossroads. The caravaners going one way, the trader is at the crossroads. You're never going to see him again. The trader has superior knowledge of the goods. They sell you crap at the maximum price. And the poor caravaner has got to get going before the snow starts flying in the mountains. So there's this old... I'll call that the old sales dynamic. The modern sales dynamic is nobody gets away from anybody just like these employers. You can't get away from your employees because you're now made of employees. Used to be made of a bunch of bricks and steel and access to raw materials and all this stuff. It's like, I'm sorry, but now you're kind of made out of your employees. That is the actual structural material of your company. And if you don't trust them and they don't trust you, you got bricks, you ain't got no mortar.
Chris Beall (18:59):
And it's a real serious, serious problem. And Henry so tell the audience about this trust thing because you told me about your eye-opening on that. And it was surprising and delightful to me.
Henry Wojdyla (19:12):
Well, I really have to credit the both of you really, for that kind of pivotal moment. But I was way over-indexing on... I was obsessed with the idea of leading with value. And again, you've kind of heard me outlining schematic format, how we've tried to really get super hyper granular with our very defined TAM and part of the reason for that was well, if we could really know who we're addressing, we can really kind of customize the data and the information and the sharing of knowledge on a very bespoke level. There's still real value in being able to do that. But the problem is you have a counterparty on the other end of the phone who's not ready to listen to that.
Corey Frank (19:52):
So you were front-loading in your screenplay, all the benefits of your firm and all the cold cognitions of your stats and your yields. Is that what you're saying?
Henry Wojdyla (20:06):
Not exactly. It was definitely vectorally in that direction. It was more so I would say more data-driven and not so much about us as a firm. In many ways, I would say probably one of my faults is I probably tried to templatize my impression of how people sell and usually do the inverse, which is kind of a simplistic way to look at it. But leading with trying to beat my chest about who I am or who Real Source Group is I don't think is of frankly any value to someone that's not familiar with us.
Corey Frank (20:37):
That's why I want to understand from your perspective, because you ask five different folks in a firm, they lead with value. Some could lead with status as my value, some could lead with longevity of my firm as value. So that's why I want to just try to deconstruct that.
Henry Wojdyla (20:53):
We were data forward. It was data forward. So it was a hyper-focus on data that was then very finitely aggregated and to different components and then partitioned out to people that we thought that those particular data points would be most relevant too. I still think that that's of some aid, but as opposed to it being the tip of the spear, when it really can't be received, the idea of leading with trust. I guess in some ways I would almost say, just talking about binge-listening, I'm actually kind of taken back to the Oren Klaff episodes that you had.
Henry Wojdyla (21:23):
You could say that the cold call is the micro condition of the larger psychological play Oren Klaff does in the pitch. When you've got the disparity of the crocodile brain with a higher functioning of the brain. And clearly, in the context of cold call, that is a completely a defensive posture of the part of the recipient. So as Chris has outlined many, many times the ability to create trust by essentially alleviating the pain of who you are as the attacking entity, it's almost hard to kind of overstate the... Well, speaking of value there's value there. There's value in creating trust, but it's an entirely different dynamic.
Corey Frank (22:02):
So the initial cold calls you'd make BC and 80 right before...
Announcer (22:10):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern, innovative sales and scripting toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com. Never miss an episode, go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
This week, the Market Dominance Guys’ dynamic duo of Chris Beall and Corey Frank are back together again, talking with Henry Wojdyla, the dynamic Founder and Principal of RealSource Group. His company’s special business niche? The direct acquisition of healthcare facilities, particularly medical offices and surgical centers around the country. Recently, Henry was introduced to ConnectAndSell’s sales-acceleration system, and from there, he discovered Chris’ blogs and then this podcast. He is now taking the theories and techniques of marketing domination, which he learned from listening to every Market Dominance Guys’ episode and employing them to dominate his own market.
----more----
Listening in on their conversation, you’ll discover that Chris, Corey, and Henry are kindred spirits and speak a similar business language: the laws of sales thermodynamics; the self-referential dynamics of markets; feedback-loop dynamics; and tactical empathy. What these men also share is a true belief in the practice of having real conversations with prospects over what can often be a prolonged period time, so that when a prospect is ready to buy, the relationship that has been developed will lead to a sale. Borrow ideas from their insights in Chris and Corey’s three conversations with Henry Wojdyla, beginning with this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “When the Student Is Ready, the Teacher Will Appear.”
About Our Guest
Henry Wojdyla is Founder and Principal of RealSource Group. RealSource Group is retained by institutional real estate investors, enhancing their speed and surety of execution through “off-market” acquisitions of medical office buildings and surgical centers.
Market Dominance Guys is sponsored by:
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys. A program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business. This week, the Market Dominance Guys dynamic duo of Chris Beall and Corey Frank are back together again, talking with Henry Wojdyla, the dynamic founder and principal of RealSource Group. His company's specialty business niche? The direct acquisition of health care facilities, particularly medical offices and surgical centers around the country.
Recently, Henry was introduced to ConnectAndSell's sale acceleration system. From there, he discovered Chris's blog and then this podcast. He is now taking the theories and techniques of marketing domination, which he learned from listening to every Market Dominance Guys' episode and employing them to dominate his own market. Listening in on their conversation, you'll discover that Chris, Corey and Henry are kindred spirits and speak a similar business language. The laws of sales, thermodynamics, the self-referential dynamics of markets, feedback, loop dynamics, and tactical empathy.
Announcer (01:33):
What these men also share is a true belief in the practice of having real conversations with prospects over what can often be a prolonged period of time, so that when a prospect is ready to buy, the relationship that has been developed will lead to a sale. Borrow ideas from their insights in Chris and Corey's three conversations with Henry Wojdyla, beginning with this Market Dominance Guys' episode, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Corey Frank (02:08):
Okay. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and Chris Beall, the sage of sales. Today, Chris, it's a special episode. It is the two-year anniversary of the Market Dominance Guys. This little exercise, where we stumbled upon a litany of my problems that I wanted to solve in the sales universe and I went to you, the sage of sales, and you systematically checked the box for me. It turned into an idea for a book, and then a podcast and then, oh, so much more. Then our new friend, our guest today, Henry Wojdyla from RealSource Group here up in Colorado, right Henry? I think that's where.
Henry Wojdyla (02:51):
Denver.
Corey Frank (02:52):
In Denver. Henry is the principal of RealSource Group and is on the buy-side of real estate assets and helps focus really into the capital placements into a really tight niche. We always talk about the riches and the niches on this podcast. Henry's got a great story about how he is employing the theory of market dominance into practical market dominance today, using some of the techniques that we've talked about for the last couple of years so welcome, Henry.
Henry Wojdyla (03:22):
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Corey Frank (03:23):
I think it's helpful, Chris, how did Henry come into our little market dominance universe? Cause I think we have your family members, your son, and I got my mom. I think we got about seven subscribers, eight subscribers. Henry was the eighth that just stumbled into our world here. How did this happen and how did Henry come to be a guest here today?
Chris Beall (03:45):
Well, first of all, I have to correct you and thanks so much, Corey. Thanks for being here, Henry. There was a doe walking out here in my fiance's forest, as we call it, the next door lot. I call it Helen's forest because a queen should have a forest and she has two fawns so I signed up all three. We're now up to 10 people listening to Market Dominance Guys. I don't think they will ever be guests, though. They seem to be very, very quiet and they've got a lot of work to do out there. There's a lot of stuff to eat.
Corey Frank (04:15):
[crosstalk 00:04:15] ethereal too. Wouldn't you say? Through the thermodynamics of sales, they let that do the talking for them.
Chris Beall (04:23):
Exactly, exactly. So how Henry and I came together from my standpoint was pretty simple. Somebody said, "Hey, we got this Sandler deal. We have a deal with Sandler so we have a Sandler client. He seems a little different." I said, "What does that mean?" "Well, he wants an integration. An integration? We don't do those. "Should we charge him for it?" Yeah, better charge him for it. We don't want to do integration for something like 5,000 dials for a dollar 398. Are you kidding me?
Chris Beall (04:52):
Well, I looked a little bit closer and then thankfully for me, Henry said he wanted us to talk and I had a conversation with him and he just blew my mind, just totally blew my mind. It was like wait a second. I'm wandering around and looking here, I'm doing, I'm looking at, oh, there's the Tower of Pisa, there's this, there's that. Then I wander into this place and there's Michelangelo painting the ceiling. It's like holy Molly. I didn't know anybody knew how to paint ceilings like that.
Chris Beall (05:20):
He's painting the ceiling by basically taking over an industry that we at ConnectAndSell have done more than blunted our pitch on. It's actually been maddening for me. I've done a test drive at a very large, commercial real estate firm and it went spectacularly well. I won't name the firm because God knows, I might have to talk to them again someday, but it went really well. They're calling in these places in Manhattan and basically saying, "You want to sell your building and pay me a commission to do it?" Which Henry is going to tell us why they say that. And it's just, boom, boom, boom. Things are happening. They're really professional.
Chris Beall (05:55):
They're on message, everything's great. We get to the end and they say, "Well, what's next?" I said, "Well, this flight school thing is next. It's going to cost you 9,500 bucks." They just looked at each other and went, "How do we ever get 9,500 bucks?" I'm thinking you can sell two of these chairs. But that was my experience with commercial real estate. Suddenly, I meet a guy, Henry, who's got not only just a plan, but he's executing already on something that when I hear about it, I go, "Oh my God." We spoke and then we've done some work together.
Chris Beall (06:29):
Then he was kind enough to fly up to Seattle and we spent the better part of a day together, not socially distanced properly in a hotel lot. Well, we were half and half. Discovered that he drinks Lagavulin so he's a stronger man than I but I can drink it, but I'm a weak guy so I'm here with my little Macallan. Anyway, what I realized in talking to Henry was he's taken something that could have been an idea but I never managed to articulate it about what we've been talking about with market dominance, which is time-shift your efforts into, I'll call it the closing past.
Chris Beall (07:09):
That is take your anticipated closing date, whatever it is, time-shift your activity so that they're well before that closing day. Build a relationship, build trust, and gather information. Do this systematically across the market because each potential prospect has got a different closing date and you get the famous portfolio. We talk about running overtime, I'll call it the John Jackson portfolio, but you get it with an information flywheel attached to it that lets you dominate in another dimension.
Chris Beall (07:41):
You dominate in time and relationship with trust, and you dominate with information by using your sales activities to gather information. The combination, as you can tell, me being the old mathematician, I'm always looking for something that multiplies together because through multiplication we make an exponentiation and the really big stuff happens. I was blown away so we've been working on something. That's how we came together. That's my story. Henry's story is from a different perspective.
Chris Beall (08:09):
Henry, would you mind telling us the story? Why are you on this crazy podcast with us? You got a Lagavulin and I've got a Macallan. We're ready.
Corey Frank (08:19):
Well, I think essentially, it's almost a bit of a mirror image of what you just described, Chris. It was again, a somewhat Securitas path of referrals that led me to you. The origin point of the initial referral was me looking for ways in which to speak into multiplication. Multiply myself in a way that I can cover this niche that we've built this business around, which is specifically the acquisition, direct acquisition of healthcare facilities, particularly medical office surgical centers around the country.
Corey Frank (08:53):
Although that is a very finite niche, there are still enough assets, prospects, and people and things to know that for one individual to cover on a national basis, it can be a bit challenging. I was determined to figure out a way to multiply myself. The initial thinking was, well, maybe we'll get a contract. Someone that's got some senior sales skills and has some experience working with large value increments of investment and use them to leverage myself. That steered us somewhat in the direction of Sandler.
Corey Frank (09:28):
Ultimately, what it did is it got me in your orbit because I was fortunate enough to have someone at that organization say, "Hey, what would the best thing be essentially for you just to make the call yourself?" I said, "Well, precisely that's what I'm doing, but I'm at my throughput limit right now." That's when the introduction to ConnectAndSell was made. After quickly understanding the mathematical implications, what was a lot more exciting to me, although that was impressive, was really the foundational aspects that you and Corey have been talking about because I came across your blog.
Corey Frank (10:02):
I came across Market Dominance Guys, and really, quickly began to understand that there's something far more profound here than simply a way to make more dials per hour.
Chris Beall (10:12):
Yeah. Tumbling to that is not easy. It's that you managed to do it pretty darn quickly. The thing that amazed me is you've done all this work. When we first met we were talking actually at this fairly low technical level. I mean low in the stack about certain things about making outreach work with ConnectAndSell. We've made outreach work with ConnectAndSell in some very interesting ways for some pretty big companies and it's done just right. We call it talk to sequence and it's pretty magic, but you had turned outreach into an air traffic control center for you.
Chris Beall (10:46):
But when you think about it, this is what really got me, is your concept was, and nobody's ever attempted this before, as far as I know, which is one man, one market, dominance. That is truly the Iron Man theme. I think back to the Iron Man comics, the movie, the whole bit, as it's one person with the Iron Man suit can go do so many things so fast, and they're so precise that person can dominate an entire movie, so to speak, or the villains or whatever. The idea of one person dominating all by themselves a significant chunk of the economy that's identifiable, that you can put a name on, you can put a number on.
Chris Beall (11:31):
I don't know how big that number is, Henry, but I'm suspecting it's got to start with the B because the folks behind you with the capitol don't do stuff that doesn't start with at least a B and sometimes they have to put other words in front of the B, commas and all sorts of stuff like that, right?
Chris Beall (12:28):
So it's not a tiny market. It's not like a banana stand. Yeah, I could probably go, if I really put my mind to it and dominate the Port Townsend Farmer's Market for hard goat cheese. Actually, I couldn't because I know who does that at the Chimacum dairy place and she's so good. No, I couldn't displace her but I could come up with something that's tiny, but you're not talking tiny. You're talking how many interesting assets are out there to be acquired?
Henry Wojdyla (13:01):
Well, in our universe and we control for a lot of things. So again, right off the bat, we've definitionally siphoned down the commercial real estate world into a property type or asset class, if you will that is healthcare-oriented again, as medical office and surgical centers. That definition area begins to cordon off quite a bit of the inventory that would be under the broader commercial real estate umbrella. From there, we then began to control for certain factors, in terms of size of assets, quality of assets, ownership or counterparty types.
Henry Wojdyla (13:33):
I can give you some specifics. In our world, we don't particularly care about properties that are less than 20,000 square feet just because you're probably never going to get to evaluation that is going to be large enough to make sense for our book of clients. You don't get any economies of scale, in terms of the capital placement. As it relates to the quality we're looking for, generally speaking, higher-quality assets, which is a fuzzy term, but we know what to look for. It's a combination of just the physical infrastructure, the quality of the tenancy.
Henry Wojdyla (14:01):
Then we also specifically look for the type of counterparties we don't want to interact with. In our world ironically, what we don't want to do is actually be calling upon health systems or hospitals. The reason for that is that they, like many large institutional type owners, frequently have two factors that don't work in our favor. We've identified that early on in this business. One is they are slow to move, generally speaking. They also, typically for many institutional reasons, don't tend to make, what I'll call, more entrepreneurial-driven decisions.
Henry Wojdyla (14:34):
And what that means in this world is they are not going to sell in an off-market basis. Somebody in accounting and somebody in finance needs to have some version of a CYA where they can say, " Well, we went out, and we made a market, and we got X number of offers and we feel comfortable with the price." It doesn't mean they couldn't have gotten the same price directly, or frankly, probably for the better price, when you began to think about all the frictional costs we take out of the equation.
Henry Wojdyla (14:57):
Setting that aside, we quickly learned that was a type of counterparty that didn't work well for us. None of this is negative and says that this doesn't speak ill of those institutions or groups. It's just we had to quickly distill down where is our fertile ground? When we do all of those things, getting now back to your question, there's really only about 5,000 properties across the country that we care about, maybe a little bit more. That's about it.
Corey Frank (15:22):
Yeah. It's interesting, Henry, I think you're leading the witness there, Chris, about how tight and small this market is with Henry, right? We led off by saying the riches are in the niches. I think when one of our earlier episodes, and this has got to be in the first six, eight months or so and Henry has them all categorized so you probably know this. Remember this, Henry, is we talked about how entrepreneurs oftentimes make the mistake, repeatedly encouraged by VCs, by the way, to describe their TAM, their total addressable market, as really vast, as some sort of advantage.
Corey Frank (15:58):
But it's really a huge disadvantage, right, Chris? Because the tighter your market, your first market, the better off that you are because you actually have a better chance of your product actually solving a problem that your market has. Correct?
Chris Beall (16:14):
Yeah. The problem with big markets is they're generally not markets. A market is defined as a set. Essentially, you can reduce it to a list and order it in whatever way you want, but a set of entities, folks, whatever, that if you sell to one, it reduces the cost and risk of selling to every other one in that set. As soon as you come to one that doesn't fit that model, that if you sell to one, that one is not advantaged. You don't have an advantage selling it out. When you have to kick them out of the market, they don't count.
Chris Beall (16:50):
This is a Jeffrey Moore definition of a market. It puts a skin around it. It's almost surface tension. Actually, the math is identical to surface tension, but thank God most people listening to this podcast don't know the math of surface tension so they're not plagued with the dreams I have at night. How surface tension works it holds itself together because every molecule in there is attracted to every other one in a certain way. Water is funny like this. It's this polar molecule, that one water molecule gets close to another one, it orients itself so they like each other.
Chris Beall (17:24):
Well, if you drop them from the sky, they make little balls. It's called raindrops. It's cool. They're not actually shaped like this. They're shaped like little balls because it holds together. Markets are like that. And by definition or by effect, it's hard to make a raindrop above a certain size. You can't make a raindrop the size of a 747, much less the shape of one. It just doesn't work. It breaks apart into pieces and then the pieces hold together. That's how markets behave. Almost by definition, true markets are always relatively smaller than people think.
Chris Beall (17:57):
So to your VC, what you should be saying is, "There's a set of markets that we've identified, if you need a huge investment, and they're related to each other by a common set of needs that aren't perfectly overlapping, but are similar enough that one product with small modifications can jump from market to market." And that market dominance is key because I can't get to all of them unless I can take one because the only safe position in a market is dominance so I have to go take a market.
Chris Beall (18:26):
We had a whole episode on this. I was talking about it with somebody today. Take one and then go, "Okay, what's next?" Then as soon as the boulder is rolling downhill. And by the way, the guy I was talking to, Matt Forbes, who you know well, said, "You've never used the boulder analogy on the Market Dominance Guys." I said, "Well, Forbes, your memory tends to be pretty poor so maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I really don't know but here's the analogy I think I used. I think I know where I was walking in the San Francisco Airport when we were talking about it."
Chris Beall (18:54):
But the idea is when you are trying to dominate a market, it's like pushing a boulder up a hill. At the beginning, you're at the bottom and the hill's like this. It's super steep, and super hard, and you got to work like a dog, and you keep thinking it's going to roll back on you, and all these things are going on. Your feet are slipping. Your hands are sweaty, you're afraid. As you start to get farther up the hill, the hill gets a little, the hills are like this like these volcanoes we have here like that. Then it gets a little less steep and a little less steep.
Chris Beall (19:23):
Then you start to feel like, "Hey, I can move this thing." There's a point where it starts rolling downhill by itself. Don't run next to it. Go get another boulder at the bottom of another hill because you were strong enough to do one. The key to markets' dominance, maybe we should have called this Markets' Dominance Guys, but I think people would have just... They already look at us funny, Corey, so it's not going to help to do that stuff. But markets' dominance is the key because unless you're offering, can address at some level or provide leverage at some level across multiple markets, you were an idiot to build it. That's the definition of a product.
Chris Beall (20:03):
A product is something that can have currency or meaning in multiple markets with some modifications. Now, maybe the modification is too big or that the resulting product is too low value. A Tesla as a doorstop is a weird cross-market move. They make great doorstops, by the way, but so do a lot of other things. A Tesla to tow an electric airplane in up to 60 miles an hour to reduce the amount of battery you need in the airplanes, the airplane could go 600 miles instead of 400 miles. That is a pretty cool use of a Tesla. Now, that's a very defined market.
Chris Beall (20:41):
How many electric airplanes do we need to get going 60 miles an hour so that we know we don't have to use that heavy battery to get them going? The battery can stay on the ground and the plane can go in the air. We don't know yet. That's a nascent market but it is an adjacent market to the electric automobile market. The product itself would work fine with a little hook on the back for the cable and stuff like that. People tend to think of markets, I would say funny or not very precisely. Henry thinks of markets super precisely.
Chris Beall (21:11):
What I just defined is I'm sure of this following fact. The more buildings he buys, the easier it's going to be to convince somebody to sell a building through him. Right, Henry?
Henry Wojdyla (21:22):
Right. Absolutely.
Chris Beall (21:23):
Because they see themselves like each other. It's actually the same principle when we say tactical empathy and a cold call. We want the other party to know that we see the world through their eyes. A market is a means by which each sale causes everybody else to see the world through the eyes of the person who bought and it makes it easier for them to buy. [crosstalk 00:21:43] It's powerful stuff.
Corey Frank (21:48):
Well, we've talked about one of the laws of sales, thermodynamics and market dominance is that the more traction I get, the less there is for my competition, and the more friction my competition in essence has, especially when I do proper follow-up. I'd imagine, Henry, that as you started this process that the exhaust or the signals, not the noise, as Chris talks about oftentimes.
Corey Frank (22:14):
But the signals that you're getting from these folks, who aren't quite ready to engage in a conversation yet, but they may be ready next month or next quarter, is that's part of your market dominance process, correct?
Henry Wojdyla (22:30):
Absolutely. That actually ties into the broader concept that Chris mentioned a little while ago of the air traffic control piece. Part of the reason I needed the air traffic control was actually to really helped me manage in two completely different capacities, two ends of the pipeline or the spectrum. On the one end, we've got the top of funnel, if we want to call it a such, which is the out there, in the trenches, engaging with market participants at a high volume of number and speed.
Henry Wojdyla (22:58):
On the other end, because of the caliber of the people I typically deal with, they're usually fairly sophisticated. They typically are high-net-worth individuals. The value of the underlying assets and question, I can't let any ball ever drop. I have to figure out a way to operate in both ends of the spectrum and the air traffic control piece was a big way to get there. You're right. Getting signal out of noise is a huge piece of it. We are very cognizant to always try to harvest data, either be it directly, which is of course, the best, by way of having real conversations with people over time.
Henry Wojdyla (23:38):
But also be able to begin to infer data, which speaks to a little bit, although maybe a different point that Chris was making, about the self-refer self-referential dynamics of markets. And as you began to more tightly define them, you begin to identify not just trends, but you can begin to understand what the cohesion is across cohorts. That helps us begin to if we can't get direct data, make some pretty intelligent, some cases guesses or assignments, if you will, of what I call metadata that we can then begin to overlay upon our TAM. That lets us really get precise in how we cross-cut that, which again, lets us then better message and better address concerns with folks.
Henry Wojdyla (24:21):
If we still haven't necessarily spoken with them directly, we can begin to partition that messaging in a way that's meaningful for them. There are all these feedback loops. Chris and I frequently are discussing feedback loop dynamics in many, many different ways and this would be one flavor of that.
Corey Frank (24:37):
Yeah, I like that. It'd be interesting, I think, for the sales nerds who are fans of this kind of show and these types of discussions that we get into a lot, without disclosing too much of the IP. What surprised you being a seasoned real estate asset acquirer in the marketplace for many years when you started looking at one man's trash is another man's treasure? And when you looked at this residue, what surprised you that maybe they never taught you about real estate in the past?
Corey Frank (25:05):
They never talked to you about acquisition strategies, or sales or pipeline management, et cetera, that now you can't unsee it. I think that's the thing about these laws of sales thermodynamics that we talk about is once you understand in our world, dial to connect, sales ratio, list size, who picks up the phone. Once you see it, you never unsee it, no matter what market you go into. What are some of those that maybe you now see you with these predator goggles that maybe you didn't in the past?
Henry Wojdyla (25:35):
It's an interesting question. It's both specific and broad at the same time. I guess at a certain level, a lot of this has been organically figured out over time by ourselves, myself specifically. There wasn't really a specific roadmap to get there, per se. As on a somewhat related but separate topic, Chris and I have also had many conversations, including with some other individuals, about really the lack of any sort of guidance or training in this particular industry. A lot of it has been bootstrapped over the course of my career to figure out the signals to look for and the indicators.
Henry Wojdyla (26:08):
It wasn't really a formalized, in terms of training, no really real training. It was really the necessity being the mother of invention was really the driving force here. I'm not really precisely answering your question, Corey, but a lot of it I think is what's driven me to get obsessive about capturing and harvesting data. Really beginning to understand our market in a way that is both specific in the aggregate, but also finite in the ways that we can cross-cut it, because it begins to give me the type of traction that I need.
Henry Wojdyla (26:39):
Not necessarily in terms of the engagement with people, but to really understand them even before we ever speak.
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This week, our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, is again flying solo as he continues his conversation with business intelligence engineer Tom Zheng, an expert in the field of data analysis. Explaining the importance of a data-related topic to this podcast audience, Chris points out, “Everybody who is used to Market Dominance Guys knows we talk sales, sales, sales. But because sales generate a lot of numbers, you need a data concierge to take that information and help you generate potential insights.” As a CEO, Chris is currently using a data concierge to analyze all the numbers his company generates and to make sense of the results. What works best, he says, is to tackle this process one-on-one — the CEO and data concierge only — in order to eliminate company politics.
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This depth of analysis requires skills and tools beyond the use of an Excel spreadsheet. So, on our listeners’ behalf, Chris asks Tom what you should look for when hiring someone to guide you through your data analysis. And then, from his own successful experience working with Tom, Chris adds this advice: “Your data concierge needs to be someone with clear communication skills to explain things to you in terms you can understand.” Obviously, comprehensive data analysis is not a do-it-yourself project for a Chief Executive Officer: There are just not enough hours in a CEO’s day. Thus, the strong recommendation, as the title of this week’s Market Dominance Guys commands, “Get Thee to a Data Concierge!”
Listen to Part 1:
Giving Your Data the Sniff Test About Our Guest
Tom Zheng, a business intelligence engineer, and independent contractor is a seasoned data guru who specializes in transforming your company’s data into actionable insights. With experience throughout the entire data value chain, from designing robust data ecosystems, implementing automated pipelines, and visualizing results in meaningful ways, Tom’s unique storytelling approach will help you discover those “Aha!” moments needed to challenge traditional thinking and assumptions. He can be reached at (416) 877-5412.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer:
Welcome to another episode with The Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Announcer:
This week, our market dominance guy, Chris Beall is again flying solo as he continues his conversation with business intelligence engineer Tom Zheng, an expert in the field of data analysis. Explaining the importance of data-related topic to this podcast audience, Chris points out "Everybody who was used to Market Dominance Guys knows we talk sales, sales, sales, but because sales generate a lot of numbers, you need a data concierge to take that information and help you generate potential insights." As a CEO, Chris is currently using a data concierge to analyze all the numbers his company generates, and to make sense of the results. What works best, he says, is to tackle this process one on one, the CEO and the data concierge only, in order to eliminate company politics. This depth of analysis requires skills and tools beyond the use of an Excel spreadsheet.
Announcer:
So on our listeners behalf, Chris asks Tom, what you should look for when hiring someone to guide you through your data analysis. And then from his own successful experience working with Tom, Chris adds this advice: "Your data concierge needs to be someone with clear communication skills to explain things to you in terms you can understand. Obviously, comprehensive data analysis is not a do-it-yourself project for a chief executive officer. There are just not enough hours in a CEO's day. Thus, the strong recommendation as the title of this week's Market Dominance Guys commands, get thee to a data concierge.
Tom Zheng:
Yeah, I mean, communication is definitely something that one has to develop over time, right. But one of the things that I've quickly learned is that people, generally speaking, don't like to be told what to do or what they need to do. So instead, what I tend to do is I give them the opportunity for them to come to the same conclusion that I wanted them to do in the first place. Right? So for example, you know, like, let's say if I wanted my girlfriend to clean the kitchen, right. Instead of saying "Hey, please clean the kitchen." And by the way, I usually clean the kitchen so I can use this analogy. I'll say, "Hey, doesn't this kitchen look a little bit dirty to you?" You know? And then you try to get the other person to come to the same conclusion. And then they realize, oh, you know what, you're right. I got to do this. Right. Or, oh, I got to change my assumption.
Tom Zheng:
So that works out to be a better play usually then directly saying to somebody no, this assumption is flat out wrong. Even if you genuinely believe that you can usually use better language to help the other person drive to this.
Chris Beall:
And that gives them a little bit of time to, you know we say this about cold calling that when you get cold-called your problem is that you've been cold called. And so you're trying to solve that problem by getting off the call, but you have to keep your self-image intact. And the great cold caller takes advantage of that and says, okay, I know that you want to get off this call. They know going in. You want to get off this call with your self-image intact. I will offer you a way to do that. That if you take that way, I'll get something also, which is the opportunity to say something to you. And so, we teach that, right? I know I'm an interruption in 27 seconds, tell you why I called.
Chris Beall:
And the purpose of that is, one, to get somebody to trust you, which is also very important if you're going to be a data concierge, you have to be trusted. And two, to give them some time to change their mind about their goal. Their goal is to get off the call with their self-image intact, but maybe their goal could be to be sufficiently curious. It could be changed to be sufficiently curious, to accept a calendar invitation for a meeting.
Chris Beall:
So it seems like as a data concierge, you're in a funny situation because you can see often what is needed, but just straight up prescribing it so to speak is not going to get the patient to take the medicine. You have to figure out some way without wasting time to let enough time go by with enough, the right kind of input that somebody can shift their mind. And I would imagine the hardest mind shift is away from assumptions that have been baked into the business for a long time. The way we've always done things, right. I come up with those all the time in my own business and I go, really for 13 years, we didn't train anybody how to speak up because our assumption was we're not that kind of company and as soon as we start doing it, great things happen, right?
Tom Zheng:
Right. I can definitely vouch for any sort of, for example, sales training program such as ConnectAndSell's Flight School because I myself have received something similar to that in the past, which is training how to sell credit cards. Because when I was in university for one summer, I had to sell credit cards for my summer job. And believe me, Chris, that was the hardest job I've ever had. But through continuous training and through learning from your mistakes, you, just a simple change in your wording to make a huge difference, right? I mean, one of the key lessons in credit card selling is never mention the word credit. Don't mention credit, unless they ask you for it, just say, "Hey, would you be interested in this card?" And if they ask you, "Oh, well, what kind of card is it?" Then you have to tell the truth, but often people won't.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. So I'm recommending to anybody watching this or listening to Market Dominance Guys, Hey, somehow get yourself a data concierge. And I'm going to make a strong recommendation. Do your interacting with your data concierge one-on-one and don't do it with any politics in the room. So be alone, be part of that lonely minds club of your own, but know that you've got somebody who can discern truths and let you explore truths in the data and who will be both rigorous about how the work is done, but will allow you to kind of come along, right? It's not going to demand that you make an instantaneous flip of every moment. So that's, my recommendation is get one of these. And there's a hard recommendation. I mean, now that I'm doing this, I regret not having had this experience for the past 10 years.
Chris Beall:
Actually, when I started with ConnectAndSell, if all I had done, if all I had done was said "You know, Sean," to Sean McLaren, "I actually don't think in my role as the senior vice president of products or chief product officer or whatever the heck I was called, I don't think I should launch right into the product. I think I need to have somebody work with me and go through the data that the company's generating and the data that's in the CRM and try to make sense out of it. Had I done that I probably would have lopped seven years off off of this journey. I think I would have. About seven out of the 10 and we'd be about seven years ahead. And given that time is nobody's friend in business, time is never your friend. I highly recommend this as an accelerant to your business as a whole.
Chris Beall:
And frankly, as a CEO, you need some power too. Right, you need to have the power of known truths rather than guesses otherwise your own people are going to go "Yeah but that's not the way we did it yesterday." You get a lot of "Yeah , but" back to you when you're a CEO. That's kind of like everybody's in the "Yeah, but" department. And all they're really saying is "yeah, but that's not the way we did it yesterday." So folks, are going to take me up on this, brilliant idea that I have. Go get yourself a data concierge. Where should they look? I got lucky. Our VP of customer success and master of intensive test drives, James Townsend kindly introduced me to you. And we didn't know exactly what we were going to do. And then we kind of I'll call it, shaped it up as we went along, but it shaped up pretty quickly. Now I think I know the shape, but if somebody is looking for you, but not you, what should they be looking for? And also what should they be avoiding like the plague?
Tom Zheng:
You want to be able to trim the fat as much as you can and avoid middleman, right? The simplest way for anyone to go about this is obviously to be able to go to a consulting firm, contact their partners, say this is what I need. And then you end up with a multi, not a multimillion, but hundreds of thousands of dollars in a consultant contract. And that's not realistically what you want because you have too many people that are in the middle who are interfering with things, right? Ultimately you want flexibility and direct action. So what I would do if I was in the market, looking for someone who could fulfill that data concierge role is somebody who has experience in the entire spectrum of data, which is basically to say data analysis and data engineering, primarily. Data architecture is less needed in my opinion, but for sure you want somebody who has done both data analysis, which is somebody to analyze clean data and data engineering, which is someone to clean up dirty data and to clean data for the analysts to use, right.
Tom Zheng:
But the key thing though, is they should have enough business background to have strong business acumen because you'll often find people who are very technical, very number savvy, but they don't understand the bigger picture. So where I would start is looking at people who might've gone to business school, let's say, but ended up focusing on something with a data niche. Right? And so that's, I think the sweet spot in terms of intersection of the type of skillsets that an ideal candidate would want. Now, to be honest, where could you go for this? That I'm not entirely sure yet. I'm not sure there's exactly a dedicated firm out there who provides data concierge service. Hey, unless maybe I start that firm who knows, right? But simply if you were to, for example, post a job on LinkedIn or on Indeed or something, the skill sets that you would want is generally speaking, the technical experience coming from either a data analyst or a data engineering role, plus, strong business acumen skills.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. I think I'd add one to it. And this is one of those rare cases where an interview can get you a lot more than you would expect, which is you need somebody who can explain something to you in terms you can understand without generalizing to stuff that doesn't make any difference. And that's, I don't know how you find that, but I know how I know that would be a huge mistake is finding somebody who's got all these other skills, but the skill that a data concierge would have is the ability to work interactively. And that means clear communication and keeping their wits about them. And knowing also, this is an interesting skill. You do this extraordinarily well, knowing when to say, okay, in order to go down that path of that exploration, it's going to take me a little bit of time because, and you're always very careful about this, because I need to do X, Y, and Z in order to prepare for that.
Chris Beall:
And therefore I can share those results with you tomorrow. That ability to clip the conversation and say, got it. I know, Mr CEO, Ms. CEO, you're driving in this direction, but let's face it, the road we're on is getting more and more slick with black ice. And unless I have a chance to go out and put some salt and pea gravel down, we're going to go off a cliff. So let's not just keep doing this. Let's just stop here and I'll go prepare the road for you, for us. And then we get to drive down that road. That seems pretty important.
Tom Zheng:
It is important. Unfortunately, the only way to be able to obtain that skill is from experience right. Of working with data. Because typically what I do is before I start each meeting, right? Each service, let's say. I would prepare and massage data like a funnel. You know, a funnel only goes so wide or it goes so deep. So once you exceed the width of the funnel or the depth or the length of the funnel, however you want to call it, that's when the concierge would need more time because I can only predict to a certain degree of the types of things that will want to analyze because X, Y, and Z. And so every good data concierge should prepare some preliminary stats and preliminary data to begin with, but there will always be the time where you're going to go out of your funnel, right. Which means more time is needed. And unfortunately, to develop that skillset of knowing what type of data you should have in your funnel, as well as when you're about to exceed your funnel, that unfortunately can only come with experience.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. It's well let's say an exacting business. That's so valuable. I actually think this would be game-changing for everybody who's trying to run a company and succeed in the market. And I don't think anybody knows that it's out there as a way of doing things. It's one of these situations that my recommendation to folks would be find somebody that's better than you are with data. Now, most CEOs aren't bad with it, right. But somebody who's better than you are, has the ability to work with tools that go beyond Excel. I think the ability to visualize quickly to get a visualization right in front of your eyes, in order to validate or partially validate or invalidate a hypothesis is critical. The number of times you've just put something up on a scatter chart or some marching bar graph or whatever, we just look at it and go, huh, that's it like, huh?
Chris Beall:
I didn't expect that. Right. Getting that cycle time down, I think requires facility with tools like Power BI that we're using that kind of allow you to iterate on visualization, to go from thinking, to looking, to talking, to thinking, to looking to talking in some cycle and kind of get going with it. Because here's my guess, my guess is most CEOs bring to bear sufficient curiosity and ability to communicate with somebody that they're kind of directing that they could work with to some degree, anybody who's better than they are with data, better with the tools and that they've given access to all the data, which by the way, it's not the thing we haven't talked about. You have to have kind of all of it. You can't have just some of it. And who is kind of capable of hanging in the room with just the two of you on a zoom and that you can form a bond with, as you go along doing this, because they're going to be inside jokes so to speak about the data, right.
Chris Beall:
They just show up and it's like, that's one of those kinds of jokes, right. We run into them all the time. So it seems quite doable. And I would encourage folks to, in my position to jump a little sooner and see what you can do. Maybe just somebody on your staff who loves a good spreadsheet, perhaps send them off to Power BI class or something like that. And they know your business and then maybe switch their job over. By the way anybody is thinking of doing this, data concierge is truly a full-time engagement. It takes a day of work to get to an hour of interaction. Is that a reasonable cycle?
Tom Zheng:
I would say so. Yes. It's. I mean, another analogy that I think is quite good is it takes 80% of cooking time to actually just prep the ingredients, right. To wash your vegetables, chop it up and stuff. The actual final bit of stir fry or assembly. That actually is pretty quick, right? I mean, let's say you're doing a stir fry or whatever, right. Once you have everything done and you put everything into your pan and you stir fry, that's quick. And that's why I hate watching those Gordon Ramsey videos, right. Where it's like, oh, this delicious meal in 10 minutes. Well, it's like, dude, you already have all the ingredients prepped. Right. So yes, I would say that's used to be about right, where it takes for me, at least it takes about a full day of prep work in order to get one to two hours of analysis.
Chris Beall:
Yeah, that makes sense. And then you iterate again, you find something new to go after. Sometimes you just find a blocker. It's like we had the last few days involve the fact that ConnectAndSell has got a little bit of data, right. Compared to some folks. I mean, you've been dealing with millions of rows and now we're talking about a hundred million rows or thereabouts. And a hundred million rows of data is kind of challenging for some of the tools. And you have to figure out, I'll call it data engineering of the other kind. It's data infrastructure engineering, just making it work, which of these techniques will physically get this data together. But one thing you've emphasized is when you're doing that kind of work, go get it done. It might cause a delay, but go get it done and resist the temptation to just summarize.
Chris Beall:
Because once you've summarized, you've lost the information that, you're making an assumption, right? There's the sum in summarize, may be the sum in assumption, but there's something that you believe and that thing can turn out to be false. And then you don't have access to the detail anymore. So it seems like that's an important thing too, is before you CEOs that want to work with a data concierge, make sure that when you run into a problem that could be solved with either an insight about how some tool works or with money, by the way, suddenly the tools seem cheap, right? Because you, as a CEO, your time is very valuable and you get that. One thing you don't have to sell any CEO on is that their own time is very valuable. That's an easy one. So when you think about that though, it's like, huh, okay.
Chris Beall:
So I've got to bring a certain patience to bear along with drive and curiosity. Because I've got my job to do as the CEO in the data concierge relationship. And I've got to keep my end up. And part of it is like drive, willingness to clip off areas of inquiry because I know they have no business value. I suddenly realized the insight is that doesn't mean anything, right. Let's not go there. But the other insight coming from the data concierge side is, I got to go figure this thing out with regard to putting a hundred pounds of mud in a 10-pound sack or whatever it is. And I'll keep you posted. Right. I mean, all that stuff's got to happen, it's kind of a complex relationship, a bit of a marriage actually.
Tom Zheng:
Yeah. I would say so for sure. One thing I was going to say for any CEO's or companies who want to get started, but might be limited in their resources, either staffing or budget. The great thing about tools like Power BI is that there are lots of training videos out there for free that teach you how to use the tool, right? And so, as long as you have an analytical mindset and you have strong business acumen and maybe an ability to communicate things clearly, if it's really just the lack of knowledge of the tool that's your constraint, then I highly recommend going on YouTube or LinkedIn Learning and watching some of those videos and doing some of those tutorials because nobody is born with these skills.
Tom Zheng:
Everybody at some point would have had to do those training as well, including myself. And even though it does take a little bit of time, I would say, if you are wanting to pursue this path, give for example, one of your staff members one whole week, and just basically say, let me reduce your workload and just focus on completing this training module. And I guarantee you will find your return on investment of not one week of possibly lost productivity on that employee.
Chris Beall:
I think that's a great recommendation. And I would recommend this is something that came up in a conversation with some very senior people at Microsoft about, Hey, you know, Microsoft has Power BI, most powerful use of Power BI is directly with the CEO. Does anybody let that happen? And one of the people said, "Well, yeah, the tools are so easy a CEO could learn to use them." I guarantee you as a CEO, you're not going to do any better learning to use the tools yourself because your day won't allow you the focus time to make use of them, you'll think that you're doing something but quite frankly, what you're doing is what I call a science project. And your science project will not win the science fair. You need to do what Tom just said, which is, I would say, take somebody in your organization who has that weird facility with Excel, but they're really a business person and say, Hey, let's skill you up on the super version of Excel.
Chris Beall:
The one that can handle more than a million rows, the one that can do visualizations 20 ways from Sunday at a click. The one that you can preserve your work and reapply it to other situations or other chunks of data. And so Power BI is a great example. There are others that are out there for sure, but you know take that person and do what Tom suggests, which is make it their job to learn the tool that is really, I'll call it Excel to the next level because companies tend to run on Excel. That means somebody out there knows it. Somebody might know the business and then, they could come from any department. And then try that person out as your data concierge. Schedule an hour, a week or an hour a day with them. And I do think it takes about an hour a day.
Chris Beall:
You could do it for half an hour, but at the beginning, I think it's an hour a day. That's your time commitment as a CEO. Make sure they get all the data that it somehow be brought together enough that it lets you explore something together and get in the canoe together. It's kind of like a canoe, right? You've got the data concierge in the front of the canoe, providing all the power and you're in the back and you're providing a little power and some steering, but mostly what you're doing is you're stopping and saying, huh, you know your river running here. What do you think? Do we go down the right side or the left side or the middle? Or are we just cool and we just keep going. We don't have to get out or do we have to portage? Or what do we have to do right?
Chris Beall:
And that's, you're very much together in a boat. I think it's a two-person operation. It is like a canoe. A canoe is [inaudible 00:24:11] a little bit specialized, but it's not one hundred percent specialized. Everybody paddles in that there are two of you who paddle. If things go well, you stay dry and you try not to get dumped. And you do have to stop every once in a while to figure out what your next move is. And then when it's time to go, you got to get in and kind of pedal like that.
Tom Zheng:
Exactly. Exactly. Just going back to your point about Excel. I mean, the tool that we've been using, which is Power BI is built off of Excel, right? I always call it Excel on steroids. And so, I mean, most people already know Excel, but Power BI is honestly just much beefier, much faster and it produces much better results than Excel. So my recommendation is take somebody who you trust, who you can trust with the company's data set. Right. And if you know, they've been doing excellent analysis and reporting in Excel already, then promote them to using Power BI. Give them one week, right. Get them to take a week and just let them learn Power BI and I guarantee you'll get your return.
Chris Beall:
Yeah, that's an awesome suggestion. If you look at this report, that's the fake background behind me. That actually is a report it's called the attribution report, exists in ConnectAndSell. And it shows you how much money is in your pipeline from conversations you've had that have turned into meetings or conversations that were positive, or this green one over here is conversations that just happened, they didn't have any great outcome, but somehow you ended up with those folks in your pipeline. The person that I want is the person who looks at that and goes yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I like that export button up there, the one right above my head, because that gives it to me in Excel. And they would tell you what I'm curious about is, and they'll use the word pivot. And somebody who does that and they use the word pivot, that's the person that you want.
Chris Beall:
They think in terms of not just filtering, but also looking at the data from different angles, with different ways of summarizing because just to make a good pivot table and get it right, it takes that mental model of data that you want in your data concierge. So I'd be looking for that person. And I have somebody like that used to work at ConnectAndSell. I remember spending about two hours one day with, she was curious about Excel and really wanted to use it more for one of our customers that had a large amount of data, customers generating or consuming about 35,000 dials a day. And the question is, so what was going on with regard to problem connects in their use of ConnectAndSell? And the way to discover that was to take the raw data from the dials out for a period of time, look at the problem connects and then invert it and pivot it and find out well who had the most as a percentage of the whole and taking off some of the other connects because they sort of didn't count in the denominator.
Chris Beall:
And I remember teaching her to do this on a long phone call, on a phone call that turned into a zoom session and it kind of changed her career. She now is the head of sales of a pretty good size company and is doing fabulous, fabulous things. I would say the pivot is the pivot. That is somebody who loves pivots in Excel and really gets it. And they're hungry for those insights. That's the person that you want. Find out who loves the export from say, you're using Salesforce or using Dynamics. Somebody doesn't just look at the report, but they export the report. That would be my first question would be, so what's your preferred way of interacting with data that comes out in a report? And somebody says, look, I don't even look at the report. I just export it into Excel. And now I've got control, check.
Chris Beall:
You're coming closer. Well, what's your favorite way of figuring out what's going on in that report? You know, what's real. Well, I tend to eyeball it with some filters on it, just to see if I understand it. And then once I have a hypothesis, I'll select the data and I'll go ahead and I'll pivot. Really? Do you have an example of that? You know, and man, you're pretty close. Take that person, turn them loose on Power BI with all that extra power that's in it, I think you may have yourself your data concierge.
Tom Zheng:
Absolutely, absolutely. Spot on. That's where all good data analysts start from, right? Just not accepting the out-of-the-box reports of pre-summarized data and always trying to get to the truth by pivoting it themselves. And if you have somebody with a bit of a data engineering background, they can even say "You know what? I don't like always exporting to CSV or Excel. Why don't I try to connect directly to the system." Right? And then that makes things even faster when it comes to continuous analysis, because you don't have to constantly be exporting CSVs, because if you think about it, all this data comes from a system usually. And so why not directly connect to that system and link it to your analytical tool?
Chris Beall:
Well, we know the why not actually. The why not in general is that to do that, you have to go through the engineering department and you'll die before it gets done. But that's for a different episode. So we'll talk about that sometime.
Chris Beall:
Well, thanks so much, Tom. This has been spectacular. I know everybody who's used to Market Dominance Guys, we talk sales, sales, sales. Well, you do it right, you generate a lot of numbers, generate a lot of facts. You generate a lot of potential insights. If data is the new oil, you better get yourself some tools and techniques to go drilling and know which direction you're going and whether you're coming up with dry holes or whether you're coming up with black gold. And I can't thank you enough Tom I'm looking forward to our session tomorrow. I'll be in my car. So we're going to try something new. I'm driving to the airport. He's going to show me visualizations through my ears. While I drive on a road that has water on one side and big burly trees on the other that I don't want to collide with. So we're going to do this with great care, but Tom, thanks so much. This is spectacular.
Tom Zheng:
Thank you Chris, for the opportunity and it was great to share my insight.
Announcer:
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Our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, is flying solo again this week as he meets with data guru Tom Zheng. Tom is a business intelligence engineer and works as an independent contractor in the field of data analysis. In other words, he spends his days making sense out of those large quantities of data that tend to pile up in businesses. As CEO of ConnectAndSell, Chris uses Tom’s data analysis services to guide him through the often-confusing pathways that data can create. As Chris says, because data is kept in ways that are not always optimal for analysis, business leaders need people like Tom to help make sense of it, so they’ll know if they’re dominating their market or not, or if they’re making or losing money on different parts of their business.
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With education credentials in economics and finance, Tom employs his talents in data engineering, data architecture, and data analysis. Along with these skills, he brings a great bedside manner — coupled with brutal honesty — to his data-sharing sessions with CEOs. To get to an actionable truth about the numbers he’s analyzing for companies, Tom uses a series of questions that he asks himself and his clients: “Is this data meaningful? Is it true? And does it lead us somewhere or not?” Take a listen to how expert data analysis can help you dominate your market on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Giving Your Data the Sniff Test.”
Listen to Part 2:
Get Thee to a Data Concierge! About Our Guest Tom Zheng, a business intelligence engineer, and independent contractor, is a seasoned data guru who specializes in transforming your company’s data into actionable insights. With experience throughout the entire data value chain, from designing robust data ecosystems, implementing automated pipelines, and visualizing results in meaningful ways, Tom’s unique storytelling approach will help you discover those “Aha!” moments needed to challenge traditional thinking and assumptions. He can be reached at (416) 877-5412.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer:
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall is flying solo again this week, as he meets with data guru, [Tom Zheng 00:00:32]. Tom is a business intelligence engineer and works as an independent contractor in the field of data analysis. In other words, he spends his days making sense out of those large quantities of data that tend to pile up in businesses. As CEO of Connect and Sell Chris uses Tom's data analysis services to guide him through the often confusing pathways that data can create. As Chris says, "Because data is kept in ways that are not always optimal for analysis, business leaders need people like Tom to help make sense of it. So they'll know if they're dominating their market or not, or if they're making or losing money on different parts of their business."
With education credentials in economics and finance, Tom employs his talents in data engineering, data architecture, and data analysis. Along with these skills, he brings a great bedside manner, coupled with brutal honesty to his data-sharing sessions with CEOs. To get an actionable truth about the numbers he's analyzing for companies Tom uses a series of questions that he asks himself and his clients. Is this data meaningful? Is it true? And does it lead us somewhere or not? Take a listen to how expert data analysis can help you dominate your market on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, giving your data the sniff test.
Chris Beall:
Hey everybody, Chris Beall here without [Corey Frank 00:02:03], I don't know how I can get by a Market Dominance Guys episode or two without him, but I don't know I'm going to be brave and I'm going to plunge right in. I'm here with Tom Zheng. Tom is a data guru. He's a guy who makes sense out of data. He's a master of the tools and the techniques and the mindset that it takes to take those big piles of data that tend to pile up in our businesses and help you make sense out of them. And he's working with me at Connect and Sell to make sense out of our let's say 50 million rows a year of data.
We call them rows in the data business. So think of it as we do 50 million dials a year. Each one generates some data. And if we wanted to figure out anything about that data, it's a couple of different ways we could go. I could have somebody do a project and go try to figure some stuff out. But what I've been doing with Tom, and this is a very Market Dominance Guys relevant is we spend some time every day exploring the data together. I've come up with a name for it. I call it a data concierge. So the CEO or a CRO, or whoever really cares about trying to understand the business and figure out what to do about the business can actually exercise their curiosity directly on the data, but without becoming an expert on the tools and have somebody to help them think through what makes sense. What's a good hypothesis. How might we go about addressing that hypothesis and get some facts. So welcome, Tom.
Tom Zheng:
Thanks Chris. Glad to be here.
Chris Beall:
It's awesome to have you here. And this is one of these things that we've talked about a lot of stuff on Market Dominance Guys, but it tends to be about sales. And it tends to be about sales as though my thesis, which is you can pave a market with trust and with trust-based conversations or trust-yielding conversations, and then harvest that market over three or four years as folks come into the decision process. It says though, that thesis just operates by itself, right? And I think that's BS actually, when you really look at a real business and then you think, "Well, how does it work?" I've got to be getting feedback from the outside world somehow that says, Hey, what you're trying is either working or not, or accomplishing X or Y, or maybe doing something surprisingly wonderful that you didn't even imagine.
And that tends to be, I'll say hidden in the data in two ways. One is data is fundamentally complex. Maybe three ways. Tom might give us some more, but one is it's fundamentally complex. It represents lots of different things that happen and you're trying to figure out what does it all really, really mean and how does it go together? And the other is data is kept in ways that are not optimal for analysis. So we tend to build systems that are good for operating, getting something done, but we tend not to build them so that they're great for figuring out what was going on.
So I'm just going to have a chat here with Tom, and he's kind of enlightened us about something that I think every person who cares about market dominance should be thinking about, which is, who is helping you make sense of the data in your business, such that you can tell if you're dominating or not. You can tell if you're making or losing money on different parts of the business, and you can even uncover opportunities to go and build the business where you might not have seen those opportunities before. So I'm going to ask Tom just a little bit about his background first, and then we'll go from there. So, Tom, how did you fall into this? I know you used to teach little kids how to play the piano. Has that background that led you into this direction or was it something else?
Tom Zheng:
Well, sort of, I mean, if you listen to studies, there's been lots of studies that show people who play piano tend to be better at math, right? Because music inherently is numbers-based. And so growing up, I've always been better on the numbers side than on the language side. And so when I went to university, I pursued a degree in economics and finance. I went to business school, but my major was in economics and finance. And so more so in the economics part, that's where you deal with a lot of data, right? So that was kind of the entryway into learning more about statistics and working with large data sets. And so when I started off in my career, I worked for a financial consulting company who specialized in helping banks revise processes and become more lean essentially. But I was involved on a lot of data-based projects and technology driven projects, which further honed in my technology skills.
And after a few years of working consulting, I then ended up working in a brand new industry, which was the cannabis industry here in Canada. And so a couple of years ago when they legalized cannabis, that's when I jumped into that industry and I worked as a data engineer. And I've since left that industry and now I am an independent consultant and my specialties are really anything to do with data specifically in data engineering, architecture and analysis.
Chris Beall:
Fascinating, fascinating. What was it that as you went into the cannabis industry, what were the data areas that were interesting there? What was the subject of... What was the mystery that they were trying to resolve that was most intriguing to you?
Tom Zheng:
Well, considering it's a brand new industry with no standardizations, one of the challenges and what people were like myself were trying to fix is to create a standardized schema of how we capture our data and to design, for example how do you create a database table? What columns do you need in a particular dimension table? These are all things that were unknown because cannabis has never really been legalized at least in North America on a large scale, right? And additionally, there were no mature technology players. So everybody was designing their technology from scratch. And when people design their technology, they often didn't have a data lens to it because the idea is let's capture the data first before worrying about analyzing it tomorrow. And so one of the challenges of working in that industry is that data was often unclean and you spent a lot of time having to cleanse that data before you could even use it.
Chris Beall:
Oh, appropriate for the cannabis industry. A lot of cleansing was necessary before it's ready for use.
Tom Zheng:
Absolutely.
Chris Beall:
What can I say? What can I say? Something that struck me is when folks are doing sales-oriented kind of work, they tend to be using a CRM and CRMs have the endearing quality, but also frustrating that you can extend them by adding fields, adding objects and so forth. And that often is done by folks without any data backgrounds. So we have a couple of fields in our CRM that are laughable. One of them says, for instance, if I recall correctly, something like at the account level, there's a field that says 2017 revenue. And nobody who designs data for analysis or even maintenance would ever create such a field, but to the person that was trying to keep track of revenue that year, they thought, "Well, how simple, I'll just make a field that says 2017 revenue and drop it right here on the account object." Not thinking ahead to does that mean I need a 2018 revenue field and what is going to update that whatever process updated the 2017 revenue field it has to be changed in 2018 and so forth and so on.
That's an innocent example, but it's not an egregious example. I would say we have, my guess is we have probably 150 data fields that have been added to our CRM over time, including some new objects. I would say 10 to 20% of those are somehow in meaningful use. So we don't know what they are. And if you try to... And some of them changed their meaning over time. So you'll say, "Oh yeah, back in 2019, the way we use this field was we put in it the number of hours that it took to sell the deal, but that became uninteresting, but we kind of liked the field. And so we decided to put in the actual cycle time of the deal itself the total number of days between first engagement and first close, and we just thought that'd be better." And there you are the analyst trying to make sense out of this, how do you tackle stuff like that? And have you been faced with this, I'll call it the extensible data model done by amateur modeling, modelers problem that's full of lots of data? What do you do with that problem?
Tom Zheng:
Absolutely. So this is something I see all the time and the reason why it happens is down... I can boil it down to one word, which is convenience, right? Often people will make customizations for their own convenience. And so whenever somebody adds a custom column or field, often they are just manipulating or filtering or aggregating existing data that already exists in their system, but it makes it more convenient to access. And so before I answer the question of how I deal with these types of custom columns, the first thing I will say is that as a general best practice, if you are running your company or at least the IT side of your systems company, you should always try to avoid adding these columns of convenience. Because if you use an analytical tool for example, Power BI, Tableau, or Click, there are very easy ways for you to recreate those columns of convenience directly on your report. And so it negates the need for you to actually add it into your system.
Whenever I see those things, it's always a big pain because they're not often labeled correctly. And what I mean by that is as a best practice for data governance, you should have this thing called a data dictionary, which is basically a tool that allows you to add metadata to all of your data sources, right? So in your case, for example, 2017 revenue, if a data dictionary tool was used, then the original author of that custom column could say, "These were the filters applied. This is how I aggregated and transformed the data." And so as a result, the data analyst or the end consumer does not need to make assumptions or reverse engineer how that column was calculated, right?
But in the absence of documentation, which is quite frequent, somebody like myself would have to reverse engineer and figure out how that column was calculated, if it's not inherently obvious. And it does take up a lot of time, but I always tend to do that before I run any sort of analysis, because I'd rather give you no information than to give you wrong information, which we all thought was correct. And you end up making wrong business decisions out of that.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. It's pretty easy I think to be led down the garden path, by thinking that a field means one thing, analyzing it, drawing a conclusion, and then chasing that conclusion, turning it into a hypothesis about the business. Maybe even getting other people excited about it. So now it has political implications because you've made some claim to, even as the CEO, or maybe especially as a CEO, you don't want to say something and then have to walk it back. And while we're also excited, the particular danger I see actually, as you say it, everybody believes it. You realize it isn't true. And then you can't get them to stop believing it.
Tom Zheng:
Right, exactly.
Chris Beall:
I think it happens a fair amount. So as you work through that, here you are, you're somebody who's like me who says, "Hey, Tom, give me a hand on this stuff." And you're looking into the data and you're finding these labels that are ambiguous, or they don't seem to match up with the data itself. Say you were to find two different times for an event and one time appeared to be the time at the beginning and the other is the time at the end. We just went through this today. That's why I'm bringing this up folks. And you say, "Well, let me just take a look and see." How do those spread out? So it seems like one of the first things you do is you say, "Look, let's just count all the values and just eyeball it, sort it top to bottom." And then in the case we were looking at today, you found a bunch of negative times, and we're pretty sure that time is never negative. That is directly... Duration being negative is kind of things don't take minus 10 seconds. That doesn't happen in the actual world we live in.
So there you are. You now have this piece of evidence that there's an issue with the actual data itself. You don't really know is that an issue that's going to make a difference or not? Or can I just... Is it just some error that was made in data input or whatever, in some small fraction. You got to make a call there, right? How do you make that call? And then do you do that alone? Or the people... I would think the people are generally not there who had to do with creating those fields or filling them they're gone, right? Everybody's always [crosstalk 00:15:54]. what do you do and how do you get past that to start to get to the good stuff?
Tom Zheng:
Well, being an analyst, you have to have a degree of reasonableness, right? So with all data sets, there are going to be erroneous records, erroneous data and it's up to you often as the person on the front line to decide whether or not something is acceptable or not. So call it the sniff test. Right? So in the case of our analysis, even though we did discover negative time, the negative time did not represent a big chunk of all of the available data rows, let's say. And so in this case even if we did include it in our analysis, it would not make a grand impact.
But every analyst should, whenever they discover something that seems odd, figure out the magnitude of that data, right? Figure out how much would it impact your final number if you were to include that data and if it's not statistically significant, then don't waste your time and just include it and then call it out when you actually record those numbers. That's the way I recommend other analysts go about it. Because sometimes people can go down a rabbit hole where you spend an entire day trying to cleanse a piece of data which ultimately doesn't have any material effect on your final numbers.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. My old chemistry professor, I remember from high school said to me once, and I think I was probably 15 years old, said something that still sticks with me, which is, "A difference, is a difference if it makes a difference." And, but of course that's tricky. You can get kind of circular on that. You can assume that it doesn't make a difference than find out that it was the thing that made all the difference. There's a lot of thinking that goes on to this. I think that going into this process.
One of the ways we've been working, one of the things I'd like the audience to think about is this. If you are engaged in a market dominance play, so what you're doing is you've identified a market, you've made a list you're having yourself or your folks talk to folks on that list. You're building trust. You're trying to stay out of the red ocean of everybody who's currently in market and everybody's fighting over those deals and go to the blue ocean where you're early, so to speak. And you're going to very inexpensively use technology and good techniques and good attitude in order to talk to people multiple times. So you're doing all that stuff. I'm going to make a recommendation that you find yourself somebody who you can work with. And I mean, work with intensively to iterate on these particular matters and to allow your curiosity, to guide you into a couple of things. One is, is this data that we're looking at meaningful or not? Second, is it true or not? Third, does it lead us somewhere or not? And I think you need to iterate quickly.
If you had looked to look at how you and I are working together, we're having a touchpoint every day, unless I'm on an airplane or whatever. And during that touchpoint, you're showing me what you've come up with from the previous day in the general rhythm is what's happening. And then I'm going, huh? That's interesting. That makes me think of this. Or you're saying, "When I got to this point, this didn't quite look right. This looks like this might be wrong in some way. Or I discovered something interesting." And we iterate. So we have this daily iteration cycle, but how often do you think we iterate or pivot or maneuver within say a one-hour touchpoint session? And is that normally how you've worked with folks in the past? Or is that something that's a little bit new and different?
Tom Zheng:
Well between you and I, we definitely pivot a lot and I actually see that as a good thing, right? It's basically the whole concept of if you're going to fail, then fail fast. So often we will analyze some data only to find out that, you know what, this isn't actually the data that we want to analyze. So a great example is when we were trying to figure out making our own analysis as to whether or not a phone number is direct or not only to find out well, why it matters if we identify a number as being a direct number or not when we should just always dial the number that has a faster navigation counter. Right? So to the audience, that example might not have made much sense, but I hope it did. But nonetheless, my point is it's important to be able to be agile, especially if you are looking into a data concierge service.
Because historically speaking, most companies would treat data analysis like for example, software development, where you capture all of the requirements up to the front and then you provide a time estimate and then you develop the work and then you present it. Right. But ultimately the problem with that is that 99% of the time, people don't know what they want. Right. I always like to reference that meme or that segment of a movie from the notebook where the guy is trying to ask his lady friend, what do you want? And she's like, "I don't know. I don't know." Right. And it's become a meme where people turn up for a dinner conversations like, what do you want for dinner? I don't know. What do you want? I don't know. And it's the same thing for data as well, often business leaders don't actually know what the most important KPIs are to successfully running their business.
Because you can't know what you want if you don't know that it exists. Right. Or you can't know what you want until you figure out it's statistically significant. So that's why I think data concierge is something that you've identified Chris, I think it's so important that lots of companies who do want to succeed, utilize this new approach, as opposed to the standard report building format of capturing all of the requirements upfront.
Because in my past experience, 95% of the reports that I built, it looks new and shiny for the first couple of days. And then eventually nobody ends up using it. And how do I know this? Well it's because in the tool that I use, which is Power BI, every single interaction with the report is logged and I have access to those logs. And so what do I do? I run my own report using the logged data only to find out that a report gets used quite heavily initially. And then it just crickets.
Chris Beall:
Interesting. Interesting. So the half-life of a report with regard to its actual utility seems to be somehow inversely correlated to the detail level of the specification that went into it. So the more you specify and the more certain you are that you got it right up front, and everybody's talking about it, thinking about it, crafting it, but they're not looking at the actual data. Yeah. I'm just making this up. I have a feeling it's probably true. Then the shorter the time the report will be considered actually valuable and will be used on a daily basis by the people running the company.
Tom Zheng:
That's right. In other words, the simpler, the report, the more it'll actually get used. Right? So the best example is give me a sales report. Just tell me how much money have I made this week. Those types of reports, straight and simple, it's going to get used a lot. But once you start saying, give me a sales report, but only show the top five teams, right. Or the top five individuals and their sales. Then it starts being used less because other people might say, "Well damn, I need the top 10," or, "Oh, I only need my team." And so it doesn't meet everybody's requirements if you get it to be more detailed. And so as a result, it starts getting used less and less and less.
And eventually as well, when it comes to your standard report building process is that you often find new data points or you find irregularities or an assumption with data, which fails your assumptions, and then you've got to revise it. And then you got to create a new report in the future and so for everybody within an organization is constantly learning because of its data. And so that's why if I had to put a number, I would say the half-life of a report is usually just about two weeks.
Chris Beall:
Wow. Wow. See, you spend a bunch of money. You spend even more time. You do all the specifications and you end up with something that less for two weeks, which means it wasn't providing much value in the two weeks either, because otherwise it would have been hung onto. It's fascinating. Well, I mean, I really like the way we're doing this. I actually brought it to some folks at Microsoft and asked, you have companies, your customers like Intel or Boeing, or these are big companies where I'm sure the CEO would love to have a private process where they can ask questions of the business without depending on individuals in the business to give them answers. In fact, I call it being a CEO of being in the lonely minds club. We're assumed to have no hearts. And so we can't be the lonely hearts club, but the loneliness comes from the fact that no matter how you set up an organization if you're at the top of it, your people are obliged to lie to you, whether they want to or not.
That is... The unvarnished truth doesn't know how to move to the singularity at the top of a company. But the data itself contains somewhere in it, the unvarnished truth. So why not sit with somebody? And I like to do it every day. I think that's kind of the sensible amount of time to spend in iteration, right? To ask direct questions of the data.
But as a CEO, I'm not going to learn the tools. And you know me, I'm not the least [toolsy 00:26:09] guy in the world. Right. I built a little bit of code in my life and that kind of thing. But when I watch you with Power BI, I can say, "Hey Tom, what do you think instead of just having the Y-axis be the number of dials on the excess as be the duration of the navigation a dial, what if we looked at the actual volume by multiplying those two together? And then plotting that against something else, whatever it is we want to plot it against. What do you think?" And you'll just go, "Sure, absolutely. I can do that. Hang on a second." And you'll go click and some things will happen. And here we are. It's very important that we're screen sharing at the time and I'll get a visual on that instantly. And I might see something in it and you might see something in it, or it could be nothing, but it didn't cost a lot of time and nobody had to write a specification and it'll spark curiosity.
So it's almost like if data is the new oil, you don't want to just go drill where some bunch of people walking around on the ground said, "Well we found oil in a place once where there was a Mesquite tree and there was a cow nearby and it was noon." So here's a Mesquite tree and here's a cow and it's noon, let's drill here and spend the next six weeks drilling a hole in the ground and then find out there's no oil down there. You want to drill a ways and sniff around. I think in the oil business, they use neutron activation analysis to do this correctly. And then you want to steer the drill toward the more promising oil. And if you're running a really hard rock and you can't get through it well, maybe you want to go another direction. Right. Is that a reasonable analogy for this kind of thing?
Tom Zheng:
Yeah, I would say so. I mean, the biggest issue, I think with your traditional method of upstream reporting is that people can easily fudge the numbers and tell a different viewpoint of that story. I wouldn't say lying, but you can just conveniently forget a filter or hide in a filter somewhere, or present as a completely separate view of what's actually going on in the world. Right. And I mean any good data analyst will know exactly how to fudge the numbers to make the numbers look good. And I've done that for other executives as well, right? For usually middle senior managers like directors or senior directors, often I would present to them the data and the results. And they say, "Oh, no, no, this doesn't look good. Help me make it look better." Right. That's the issue with your standard method of reporting.
But ultimately if your data is recorded correctly, assuming there's not any sort of catastrophic failures in your technology stock data doesn't lie. Right. And so as the CEO, you have a fiduciary duty to do what's best for the organization as a whole. So why accept anything less than the actual truth? I mean, the truth might not look good, but how can you make good business decisions if you're not presented the absolute truth? Right. So that's why I think the traditional way of reporting does need some sort of reform. But the one thing that I would be a little bit concerned about is just how many CEOs out there are really willing to commit let's say an hour each day, going through the data with the data concierge.
Because I genuinely mean this, Chris, I think you are one of the hard-working CEOs who actually give a shit, because and pardon my language because lots of CEOs out there just want people to do the work and they're not intellectually curious themselves. And so if you are going to utilize a data concierge service, you have to be intellectually curious and you have to understand your business very well.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. That's interesting. I don't know if I'm special in this regard. I actually think here's my hypothesis. And my observation about CEOs, CEOs have a hard time getting the truth out of anywhere. And so sometimes they despair of getting it at all. And so... But I do believe, and I know very few exceptions of the CEOs that I know. And by the way, Market Dominance Guys, all about it's a CEO audience, right? This is about folks who want to dominate markets and middle managers don't get to dominate markets. Maybe they get to play. Maybe they get to sort of be the CEO of their own world. General managers are always CEOs.
Some people are CEOs who carry funny titles and you just kind of go, is that really a CEO? Like I would say, [Matt McCorkell 00:30:47] over at [Case or Compressors 00:30:49], he carries this title of a manager of branch operations. Does that sound like a CEO? No, but I guarantee it Matt McCorkell is a CEO, I've worked with him and he's driving for improved results holistically for the company within the constraints as he sees them and believes them. And he is relentlessly curious. So what I find is the curiosity is there, but the pick has been blunted on the hard rock of trying to get to actionable truth that you can believe. Because you're making big bets. You're making big bets. Here's a big bet you and I are talking about, which is I'll call it the direct number bet, right. Do we have enough information in our system about navigation times, we thought it was direct numbers, but it's really navigation times in order to automatically choose the best possibility of the ones on offer for trying to reach somebody?
And I find one when we're doing that and I think this might be a little difference between me and some other folks is I find it super helpful to have analogies. Analogies are soft, but there is an old experiment that was done where folks are asked to figure out from the values on some playing cards and a rule, whether the rule is actually being followed or not. Like all face cards have an odd number on the other side or something like that. Right. And people have a heck of a time reasoning through stuff like that. But if you take the same problem and you express it in terms of, there are some people at a table in a restaurant and the waiter or waitress has got to figure out who's of drinking age or not. Who they can serve the drink to and you put the same problem in those words, exactly the same mathematical problem, everybody can reason instantly.
It's the phone number thing you were talking about, my example is, okay, so you're trying to get enough eggs in order to make this recipe. And the recipe calls for lots of eggs, maybe 12 dozen eggs. And you know stores that carry the eggs and you know the navigation time, how long it takes on average and the midpoint, 50% longer, 50% shorter, two, that's called the median for folks who don't like these sorts of things to get to the store. Right. And I have two forks, two ways I can go. Well, if I don't know if the store is open at all and I can't call and find out. And then once I get there, if I don't know if they have eggs today or not, what's my best strategy?
Well, the best strategy is always take the fastest route so if not this store, you have some time left to go to another one because you only have so much time to get anything done. That analogy is easy to think through. Okay. As soon as I'm concrete and I have a road and I'm in my car and then get to choose the long way or the short way, and then it's like, "Well, let's go find the short ways." And always choose them if we can. Have you found that you find yourself needing to explain to somebody that you're working with in terms of an analogy, so they can think through something because they can't do it with the playing cards, but they can do it when they're the waiter or the waitress?
Tom Zheng:
Absolutely.
Chris Beall:
[crosstalk 00:34:20] problem.
Tom Zheng:
Absolutely. And that's such an important thing. I mean, it's not as much of a skill set as being a traditional data analyst because you're often not the ones telling the story, but if you want to be a top-notch, in my opinion, a top-notch data analysts, you need to have a good enough business background to be able to convert these data concepts into analogies as well. Because the long story short is that 90% of the people in the room are not going to be as strong when it comes to data science, as you are, that's why you work in data and your audience works not in data, right? They are business stakeholders. And so that's why it's very important to be able to translate from numbers into English.
And it's funny that we bring this topic up because historically I've always worked with data scientists who are extremely smart in their fields, but they don't know how to properly convey the end result. And so as a result, they lead meetings where they just end up speaking gibberish. But people assume that what they're speaking is correct, because holy crap, this guy's using a lot of big words and statistical concepts, he must be smart, right. But at the end of the day, what are you here to do? You're here to drive business value and you want to make sure that your audience can understand the value. And so analogies are a great way to be able to deliver on some of those results.
Chris Beall:
Well, and I would think also there's one more thing, which is, we'll go back to that truth thing. So here I am a CEO trying to figure out what's the next great move to make for this company? And also how can I avoid screwing up in some really bad way that I'm going to regret? So we're looking at this stuff together and I come up with an analogy. And one of the things that I really enjoy about working with you is you don't just accept the analogy. You'll point out where it's flawed.
Well, it could be like that... You're very gentle about it by the way, which I think comes from that piano lessons for the four-year-olds and stuff like that. So I get to be the four-year-old and I go, "Well, is it like this teacher?" And you go, "Well, it's almost like that. But if you want the cord to sound better and move this a finger over one of these keys that [inaudible 00:36:38], and then it will be a major chord and for this part of the song it sounds better because it's happy. Where as this other one sounded kind of sad and anxious." Or something. Can you hear the difference, right? You're very... But bedside manner I'll call it with still brutal truthfulness. Like "No, Mr. CEO, that analogy doesn't cut it, it's wrong." That seems like an important skill.
Announcer:
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern, innovative sales and scripting tool set we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com. Never miss an episode, go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
This week on Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their interview with Marc Hodgson, sales director at ConnectAndSell. What’s the topic? How to get the most out of a first conversation. As Marc says, “All the magic happens inside the conversation,” getting your prospect from fear to trust and then on to curiosity. But how do you take a green SDR — or even a fairly well-seasoned one — and develop the skills that get them to the level where the magic happens?
As Chris and Corey have discussed in previous episodes, first you need to have a clear idea of what the purpose of that initial conversation is: You’re not trying to sell anything but the discovery meeting. And to do that, you need to truly believe in the value of that meeting for the person you’re talking with. Once you have that belief firmly in place, it’s time to develop your skills, which start with learning a great script and how to deliver it in the right tone and with the correct pacing. After that, practice, practice, practice. As Marc explains, “It’s not enough to do it. Now you have to get really great at it. You’ve got to be frequent before you can get good.” As usual on the Market Dominance Guys, you’ll hear this and lots more sage advice on today’s episode, “Tried and True: Practice Makes Perfect!”
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About Our Guest
Marc Hodgson has had an illustrious and successful sales career at a variety of companies and currently holds the position of Sales Director (aka Sales Headcount Multiplier and Cost Per Meeting Reducer) at ConnectAndSell. Marc resides happily in the Greater Boston area.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
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Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06): Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists, and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business.
Announcer (00:40):
This week on Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank continue their interview with Marc Hodgson, sales director at ConnectAndSell. What's the topic? How to get the most out of a first conversation. As Marc says, "All the magic happens inside the conversation", getting your prospect from fear to trust and then onto curiosity. But how do you take a green SDR, or even a fairly well seasoned one, and develop the skills that get them to the level where the magic happens.
Announcer (01:08):
As Chris and Corey have discussed in previous episodes, first you need to have a clear idea of what the purpose of that initial conversation is. You're not trying to sell anything, but the discovery meeting. And to do that, you need to truly believe in the value of that meeting for the person you're talking with.
Announcer (01:24):
Once you have that belief firmly in place, it's time to develop your skills, which start with learning a great script and how to deliver it in the right tone and with the correct pacing. After that, practice, practice, practice. As Marc explains, "It's not enough to do it. Now you have to get really great at it. You've got to be frequent before you can get good". As usual on the Market Dominance Guys, you'll hear this and lots more sage advice on today's episode Tried And True: Practice Makes Perfect.
Marc Hodgson (02:04):
It's about getting there and having them have the experience, the rest takes care of itself.
Corey Frank (02:11):
Yeah. We've had a couple of episodes where we spoken about from a connected self-perspective, Chris, how much you love those test drives too and the look of the change that you've seen and feel on those sales floors when we could travel, if we're getting back to those test-drive days. When you think Marc about this approach, what kind of guidance would you have of a new salesperson kind of getting in.
Corey Frank (02:35):
And I really liked the way how you described this Chris, right, is that you have to have, get your senior folks in a red ocean, a top of funnel, and then you have your executives of one portion, and then you have this other trinity with a small T as a, as a long play salesperson. Are there certain skill sets, mindsets, prep that you would give to because you're probably a five, two-player, you can do it all. But to do this probably requires different skill set that you probably would have talked to yourself 10 or 20 years ago, "Wow". But clearly it works. The math works. What advice or guidance would you give to me as a newer salesperson, a sales gal, a sales guy to get into this, to believe in the math.
Marc Hodgson (03:13):
There's the math, the sales, and then there's the multiplication factor of what really works, right. You see what's happening all over the place where you look at your inbox, things are noisy. Things are, are mucky, LinkedIn, and email and all that jazz. But I think what we're really seeing now is the resurgence in not just B2B, but human to human, right. It's that conversation. And I think the newer salespeople, the best thing you could do for yourself is learn how to have those first conversations. Right
Marc Hodgson (03:51):
We talk a lot about being able to move from fear to trust and curiosity and all that. That's probably the core skillset that any new sales rep could, should develop, right. That's the one that is going to pay dividends. And I think a lot of folks it's a bit lost in our digital world, right. We're looking for fast efficient, "Hey, what's going to ping the most emails or touches or activities or whatnot". All the magic happens inside the conversation, right. And I think getting good at that and working on that, if that's a core skill, if you had to work on one skill and one skill only, I think it's the value of a conversation on how to have it, how to get really great at it.
Corey Frank (04:34):
Absolutely. And I know you guys are launching or you have launched the flight school, where you teach big dumb farm animals like me, right, to, to have the right tone, and the right pacing, and deliver this trust that we've talked about for the last couple of years, Chris, right, in seven seconds or so. And that's a school that I think that every new sales special, they really are dear to their craft, should probably learn how to do, so that's a great, that's a great one, Marc.
Corey Frank (05:01):
It's almost as if you got this dirty joke level, right on this one matrix, right. And on the other matrix, right, you have your time. And too often, right, a figurative dirty joke level, but you have relationships with people over the course of many months, in many quarters where, you have sat on their left and you've asked them how their week is going. And they've told you, you have no idea. And They poured out their contents of their soul. And you do that month after month, quarter after quarter, you have earned the right to have that figurative dirty joke level, and that's where that trust certainly is engendered, wouldn't you say Chris?
Chris Beall (05:42):
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you, Marc. I call what Corey is doing A young blood works finishing school for future CEOs. And it's helping folks start their careers and sales by learning how to have first conversations. The most important thing you ever learn in business is how to have a first conversation with a stranger when you're not prepared for that. The specifics of that conversation, oddly enough, the preparation has to be for the generality of speaking to a human being. And if you have an idea, a clear idea of what the purpose of that conversation is, the first order purpose that is, if I could only do one thing, what would I do is, you know, Corey, I, I used to be a bit of a systems designer, right? I used to build systems of a certain size, right. I just saw the princess bride the other day. So it was like rodents of an unusual size.
Chris Beall (06:33):
I used to, I used to build systems of an unusual size and, the key to building great systems of an unusual size that worked is to ask this question of the stakeholders, which is, I, you know, I would do it like this. I'd go up to a whiteboard and I draw a big circle. I'm not very good at it, but at least the two pieces would come together. If not perfectly straight, they would intersect in some way. And then, I would draw an arrow out of the right side of that circle. And I put a little stick figure there. I say, okay, so if our system can only do one thing, no compound sentences allowed, what would that one thing be? And, and by the way, who is this, right. In sales, we ask exactly that question.
Chris Beall (07:21):
If we can only do one thing in this conversation, what would it be, and who is it for? And the answer is simple. What it would be, is we would manufacture trust, and who it's for is the person we're talking with. That's the system of sales. And I speak as a guy who's, as you know, I've got a patent or two, we just had one awarded the other day. We had one for our mobile app, my 18th patent. And this one I'm very proud of, because Dhruv Shah who was 17 years old when he built our mobile app in high school is my co-inventor. And that mobile app does one thing. It lets you talk to people without touching the device that you're using. That's the key, that's its job. It allows Cheryl Turner to go to the park and watch carefully as a good mother, her three-year-old playing on the swings and have conversations with people like the chief financial officer of Johns Hopkins, advanced physics laboratory.
Chris Beall (08:29):
And she actually did that. She had that conversation while at the park, making sure her kid was having fun and being safe. That's the purpose of that thing. That was what was on that whiteboard. It didn't have a name. It didn't know its inputs, but it knew the one thing, it delivered a conversation to somebody and that little stick figure was a salesperson with no hands. That was the idea, right? So in a conversation, if you know what you're trying to achieve, and you can describe it with that level of specificity, and then you learn how to actually do it. As Marc said, it's not enough to describe it. Now you've got to get good at, it sounds trivial, right? How hard is it to get trust built with somebody in seven seconds? Ah, how do I break that problem down? Thank God Chris' boss broke it down for us.
Chris Beall (09:19):
So it's, this is the stuff, you know, if I were to ask salespeople to believe something, in order to have great careers as businesspeople believe in precision. Believe that human psychology is a precision science. It's not about generalities, it's not about aphorisms, it's not about opinions, it's not about what your mom told you, it's a precision science. You are a brain surgeon. You're operating with two issues that are really big for brain surgeons. One, you've got to know what's what, in that massive gray, you got to be able to tell the amygdala from the pons or somebody is not going to be able to remember anything in the future. And somebody else might get really pissed off every time, a dog barks way down the street. So you got to be careful. The other is, you can't faint at the sight of blood. And most sales reps faint at the sight of blood.
Chris Beall (10:16):
The discomfort of being the brain surgeon of having that conversation, where you're in charge of somebody else's mental state, that's too hard for them. And they quail, and they drop to the floor and then they aren't there. That's not good. You see, you got to get over the sight of blood through practice. Corey, you let dozens, hundreds, I don't know how many people come through your program, but I think it's the greatest educational program for business on the face of the earth right now, because they get to experience what it is to actually be a brain surgeon. And you got to do it over, and over, and over. You got to know what you're doing, but it's secondary to being able to actually do it and keep your hand from shaking so much that you've cut somebody's brain apart and make them a little worse than you intended.
Chris Beall (11:04):
[crosstalk 00:11:04]
Marc Hodgson (11:06):
It's not just your dad's marketing jargon. That's real transformation.
Corey Frank (11:13):
Well, it's what we had talked about. Our new best friend Henry right, had been coalesced in this right. Chris and me was talking about, I think it's got to be episode two or three where we kind of talked about this concept of when everything goes perfectly in your business, how does that change your customer's life?
Marc Hodgson (11:29):
Yes.
Corey Frank (11:31):
And when you can yield that, right, when you can do that, that Vulcan mind meld in that matrix extraction, it could be that brain surgeon you're there. And so Marc, what you do clearly by playing long ball is because you're invited back into their brain every two to three weeks or whatever your cadence is, quarter after quarter, month after month, until eventually it engenders that fear to trust, trust, to curiosity. And then they'd make that leap to finally commitment. And...
Corey Frank (12:02):
[crosstalk 00:12:02]
Marc Hodgson (12:03):
They know I'm not going to cut left. I'm going to cut right. They'll be okay.
Corey Frank (12:07):
That's right.
Marc Hodgson (12:08):
I hope.
Corey Frank (12:09):
You can sit on their right in that bar versus sitting on their left.
Chris Beall (12:16):
[crosstalk 00:12:16].
Chris Beall (12:16):
Great Corey, I love that. Get to the point where you can sit down on their, right. And they're going to hit you with the shoulder and say, "Hey, my week, wasn't that bad this week".
Corey Frank (12:27):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's right. So listen to earlier episodes of that, that analogy if it's confusing for some of you guys, as a core tenet of the Market Dominance Guys, approach to the illustrators.
Corey Frank (13:18):
That's great. So here's where we're at. We've been enlightened that there are three key roles in a sales organization between the red ocean senior folks that you need, pay light bill. You have blue ocean, long ball guys and gals, right? Who keep the valuation up, kind of de-risk the organization so you don't have to get diluted, brings up capital that is very inexpensive. And then you also have the executive team CEO or in your case, you've got a triple threat between the VP of sales and the chairman, Chris, who are also bringing in dollars and not to mention what that does to keep fresh on the market understanding. We've talked about the fact that to have that arch in, which is really a science in, in the brain surgery of developing your skills to have that first conversation is a skill that everybody should have and continue to sharpen.
Corey Frank (14:17):
And certainly tools and repetition, I think as our friend Warren Cleft says, "You've got to get frequent before you get good". And when you have a weapon like ConnectAndSell, or any type of weapon that can help you be frequent before you get good. Those are good things, as you start an organization. Not only from the reps increase in efficiency and proficiency, but also in understanding what you had said earlier, Marc, about getting those false positives out of the way and using that to pivot. So I think it's a pretty juicy episode here, Chris, I think thanks to you Marc for, for jumping on word and making this easy. Sometimes when I just do these with me and Chris I'm, I'm the guy that has to...
Marc Hodgson (15:04):
You've been having a scotch? [crosstalk 00:15:07].
Corey Frank (15:10):
So this is, this is fantastic. Any final thoughts, Marc? Any other words of wisdom or things that the viewers should know there?
Marc Hodgson (15:18):
Well, no, I appreciate you guys having me. It's always an education to listen to you guys, like keep up the good work. I can't believe. I think you said earlier, it was, did you say 70 or 80 episodes in two years already?
Corey Frank (15:33):
I think it's one episode 85 times, but it's the same thing. [inaudible 00:15:36] I forget what it is. Yeah. It's a lot. It's coming up on two years since we've been on this journey here and I think we're rounding the corner, Chris. I think we actually will have some residue that is market-ready to show to our half dozen listeners here in the next month or two. So that's, that's exciting.
Chris Beall (15:59):
Yeah. It's pretty wild. I got a question for Marc before we go. So Marc, talk about sharpening, sharpening the tool, right. Abe Lincoln's sharpening the ax, right. So you're an expert at having first conversations, you do it all the time. You do it every single day. How often do you engage with the team in a structured blitz and coach environment and how often per year do you go through flight school, yourself?
Marc Hodgson (16:27):
Yeah, that's a good question. So I get to tell you, it's interesting. We didn't use to do things like that. We didn't used to participate like this. And then we go through flight school now a couple of times a year and it's a game-changer. I blitz with my team twice a week, two hours. It's on the calendar. It's mandatory unless you got something else that is, you know, supersedes it, which is a pretty tough case to make. Right. But it's been great. You know, we go through flight school, we've seen our own improvement each year because everybody drifts. Got the competitiveness you get out there, we're on a slack channel.
Marc Hodgson (17:09):
So we do it twice a week. We have four hours a week that we blitzed together as a team of sales directors. We're all closer to 50 than we are 40. So, you know, we're not the SDR type, but you know, it turns out it keeps us sharp, you know, and it's, it's a lot of fun. It's been a game-changer for us than just jumping in here and there. There's no excuses, Corey, there's no excuses, Chris, get out there. And...
Corey Frank (17:35):
Well, you know what we should do is [inaudible 00:17:37] calling you guys on the carpet, but Ryan Ricerd and, James Boughten has the SDR league, right. The vaunted SDR league sales, development rep league, where Chris, I know connect themselves and big sponsored proponent of this concept of bringing this e-sports concept to the world of outbound selling is you guys are, you guys are just minor leaguer kind of like us. I mean, you been on the wall and you, you're well past your you're a veteran contract here, but maybe we should have a little, a little ConnectAndAll SDR going at it and put them up against a take on all comers. Have another team out there that takes on the connected. So use your blitz time, but do it, do it online live. So maybe we should...
Chris Beall (18:17):
Well, my account executives have more dials and more conversations per week than the industry standard for SDRs by a factor of seven. That is every one of my million dollar plus quota carriers talks to seven times more people at the top of the funnel, than Trish Bertuzzi and the bridge groups say that the average SDR talks to.
Corey Frank (18:47):
That's right.
Chris Beall (18:48):
And I love the fact that SDRs are out there talking to people. But the fact of the matter is your best SDR is an AE armed with ConnectAndSell
Corey Frank (19:00):
That's right. And a special plug. Steve Richard from foresight and I just did that. We were in the, the octagon, the vaunted octagon. And we show that, Hey, as, as AE's, we both sell, we're both CEOs of our companies and we both sell. And we use a weapon like ConnectandSell. And I think in our little short period, we had four dials and we had three conversations. So not many places where you can do that with...
Chris Beall (19:26):
Wait, wait... You didn't have four dials and three conversations, you had four conversations in three meetings. Right?
Corey Frank (19:31):
That's true. That's true. Well no, I didn't have actually three meetings but you know...
Chris Beall (19:34):
I was going to say $4, anybody can do four dials. I'm going to look right now. Let's just stay on for a second here, because I'm going to look right now at my AE team. This is account executives, carrying million dollar plus quotas. And I'm going to see for today.
Corey Frank (19:52):
And while you're doing that Trish Bertuzzi says the average SDR does about 47 dials per day, of which half are Colt, correct?
Chris Beall (19:59):
Exactly. 47 a day. So I'm going to look at our time allocation report. I'm not going to share this screen. Cause Susan says I can't share screens when I'm doing podcasts, but here's the deal. So I've got myself one, two, three, oh, I got to go down to one team. So I got to hit the team cause I was accidentally including some SDRs sales team only. So sales team today, they've had 183 dials and 12 conversations over three people. Let's go back to, let's just do a month cause a month. You can divide kind of by four and figure it out and let's take a look. So my account executive team has had 1005 conversations with decision-makers in the month of May. During that time they did, and by did, I mean they didn't do cause ConnectAndSell did it, navigate 25,001 dials. The number of people on this team I will now count, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. That includes my executive chairman.
Chris Beall (21:09):
By the way, my executive chairman in the month of May outperformed most SDRs in terms of dials conversations and way by meetings. And our VP of sales himself at $137, 12 conversations set, six meetings. And last I checked, he, when he uses ConnectAndSell to reschedule meetings, he makes us about $242,000 a day, or an hour, I'm sorry. And our top converter Cheryl Turner, who's been on our program, converted her conversations to meetings, her 52 conversations, mostly with CEOs at a 42.3% level. So I don't want to brag too much, but the fact of the matter is your best SDR is your most senior person armed to the teeth to have conversations at pace and scale.
Corey Frank (22:06):
Yes, absolutely. That's wonderful. Yeah. Those are stats that in our profession in your craft are just unheard of it. So as many of us who have it backward and I think become a believer in the theory of market dominance and certainly what we heard from Marc and Chris today, I think you'll experience that yourself. So thank you for your time, Marc. It's always a pleasure. We'll have you back again. Chris is out of scotch, I'm out of vodka, and we're out of time. So until next time this was the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank, and Chris Beall, until next time
Announcer (22:44):
Today's show is also brought to you by UncommonPro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern, innovative sales and scripting toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with UncommonPro.com.
Announcer (23:15):
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The Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, had a meeting of the minds this week with Marc Hodgson of ConnectAndSell, who proudly claims the titles of Sales Headcount Multiplier and Cost Per Meeting Reducer. Chris introduces Marc as a learner, a student of the craft of selling, and a delight to work with. As Chris says, “With Marc there’s no bravado, no sales-jock stuff.” Marc is what’s known as a “long-game player,” spending his work days building relationships with prospects, not pushing for an immediate sale.
He credits fellow ConnectAndSell salesperson John Jackson with being his long-player model. As Marc explains John’s sales approach, “[He] talks to a prospect three or four times a year … and when they’re ready to buy, they buy from John.” The phrase, “Conversations matter,” is the basic tenet of ConnectAndSell, and Marc explains his adoption of it this way: “It takes time to build relationships. I have that core belief that there’s going to be value in the conversation. We’re going to learn together.” You can learn more about being a long-game player in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “When the Time Is Right, the Magic Happens.”
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About Our Guest
Marc Hodgson has had an illustrious and successful sales career at a variety of companies and currently holds the position of Sales Headcount Multiplier and Cost Per Meeting Reducer at ConnectAndSell. He resides happily in the Greater Boston area.
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Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
The Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank had a meeting of the minds this week with Marc Hodgson of Connect and Sell, who proudly claims the titles of Sales Headcount Multiplier and Cost per Meeting Reducer. Chris introduces Marc as a learner, a student of the craft of selling and a delight to work with.
Announcer (00:45):
As Chris says, with Marc there's no bravado, no sales jock stuff. Marc is what's known as a long game player spending his workdays, building relationships with prospects, not pushing for an immediate sale. He credits fellow Connect and Sell salesperson, John Jackson, with being his long-player model. As Marc explains John's sales approach, he talks to a prospect three or four times a year, and when they're ready to buy, they buy from John. The phrase conversations matter is the basic tenant of Connect and Sell. And Marc explains his adoption of it this way, "It takes time to build relationships. I have that core belief that there's going to be value in the conversation. We're going to learn together." You can learn more about being a long game player in this week's Market Dominance Guys episode, When the Time Is Right, the Magic Happens.
Corey Frank (01:39):
Fantastic. We have a quorum... an official quorum. Of course, last week, Chris, in the last weeks episode of Market Dominance Guys, a quorum was one because I was indisposed. So... but today we have a real quorum. We actually have a guest and that is Marc Hodgson from Connect and Sell. And me Corey Frank, of course, and the prognosticator of profit in the sake of sales Chris Beall.
Corey Frank (02:05):
Chris, I'm a little ahead of myself in my skis today because Marc's joining us. And it's not often that we can chat with somebody who is... you take Chet Holmes' pyramid, the market dominance pyramid that we've talked about so much. And Marc is a living, breathing, W2-ing his off, example of somebody who lives on the bottom part of that proverbial pyramid. And so it's good to welcome you to the Market Dominance Guys, Marc.
Marc Hodgson (02:35):
I'm honored to be here. Honored to be here.
Corey Frank (02:38):
You know, Marc, I got to ask you, looking over your LinkedIn, your previous experience, you were VP of here and you were a sales director of this, but then when you get to Connect and Sell, you don't use kind of antiquated terms like that. Vice President of Sales, CRO Director. Right? You call yourself a Sales Headcount Multiplier or a Cost per Meeting Reducer. So I think that alone endears yourself, certainly to me and Chris, but of course we're biased because you're part of Connect and Sell, but love the titles. And I think that ties into what we're going to, what we're going to talk about today. Right, Chris?
Corey Frank (03:14):
How do you kind of get a tap into that 11 twelfths of the market dominance pyramid, or show where the dollars live, where lazy salespeople don't go. In fact, when lazy salespeople see that pyramid, it's like the proverbial Darby dragons, right? Because they don't go that far down the pyramid to actually tap in to this blue ocean. So Chris. How'd you end up tripping over a guy like Marc to join a company like Connect and Sell. And what makes a guy like Marc so perfectly aligned with some of the goals of Connect and Sell on how he approaches market dominance?
Chris Beall (03:51):
Well, the alignment comes from some straightforward features of our... for one he's tough, but he's pleasant and dealing with me, you better be pleasant, because otherwise, I'll be unpleasant and that's no fun at all. So that part works out. But the main thing is he's a learner. So he's a student of the craft of... not just of sales, but beyond sales and has been since the first time we ever spoke. I recognize that like, okay, we have a hard time at Connect and Sell finding people who fit in, in a sales sense, because there's a lot of folks who are transactional and that's not very interesting. There's a lot of folks who are complicated and my view, which is no solution should be more complex than the problem. And complicators like to aggrandized power actually by complicating beyond the complexity of the problem, and then they harvest the power differential between those two.
Chris Beall (04:47):
And those people are also generally politicians and Marc is not a politician. You know my intolerance for parasites. And so some of it's negative, he's not a parasite, which is what I find very handy. But this is a funny business because what you're doing is not obvious to anybody, even the people who are doing it, which is you're dealing with a future instead of just the present. Think about all the intent guys, right? Zoom info's out there right now, selling contacts, they sell tons and tons of contacts. They're worth $16 billion, a public company. So how do they try to keep relevant? They add intent data, but intent data only tells you where the feeding frenzy is already going on. So it's like, I want to be there minutes before the feeding frenzy shows up, because I sure hate to waste my time building relationships with people who are going to buy next year. That'd be crazy. Why I want to wait until the last second, see if I can snipe this deal.
Corey Frank (05:49):
Yes. [crosstalk 00:05:50] Well with everybody else who subscribes, right Marc, to that same piece of intent data.
Chris Beall (05:56):
Yeah. I mean, that's... he's somebody that I call when I want to think things over and talk things through. There's not a lot of people that can tolerate that. So maybe that's the last feature is he's just playing tolerant of listening to me, which I've listened to a lot of Market Dominance Guys and I wouldn't be. So anyway, it's a delight to work with Marc, and he's also a guy who... he moves consistently up the leaderboard. It's nothing... there's no flash. There's no bravado. There's none of the sales hur-rah-rah-rah-rah, jock kind of stuff. I'm sure he's plenty manly, but he doesn't act some sort of jock. And I like that. I'm a cerebral type myself, a little bit of a wimp and a sissy runs barefoot and stuff like that. And so we do well together. Right, Marc?
Marc Hodgson (06:42):
I agree. And it's funny, I liked how you talk about the pyramid and whatnot and moving up the leaderboard. And I think that's the thing that people miss the most. Right? You guys talk a lot about this, right? Chris, you talk about opportunities out there in the marketplace, people in the marketplace, three-year placement cycles. There's 12 quarters. There's people out there in that feeding frenzy, what 8.33% of the time that are out there doing business now and the scavengers fighting over pieces and crumbs and reducing their likelihood of success mathematically. And I think where success is really driven... if for our customers too, not just us, the sales folks, is below the water level. It's below the waterline. So the pyramid that's just poking out, that iceberg, Right? And I think that's the most important thing that I've taken from you guys, your episodes here, is the idea that you've got to consistently build trust and it takes time. Right?
Marc Hodgson (07:45):
You mentioned the time factor. And I think that's the key that people miss and it ties really well into market domination is that yeah, you can do it at scale, but yeah, you need time. And really the blue ocean is that that which is underneath, right? That you develop and you cultivate with trust over time over your competitors. Because I think for me personally, my successes have come from the fact that it's taken a long time to nurture relationships until the time is right. And it may even be earlier than when the time might've been right, but I've been there to help them along and we've discovered along the way. So I think that's been the most sort of fascinating journey for me is to be curious about where they are and continue to build relationships with them until the time is right. And then the magic happens. Right? It just happens.
Corey Frank (08:36):
Let's talk a bit about that magic. And as a refresher to those who maybe aren't familiar with the great Chet Holmes and the theory of market dominance, listen to our earlier episodes. But in essence, Marcus, you had alluded to, we have this pyramid and on the top of the pyramid, you have this three-ish percent of folks who are ready to buy now. They're in market. It's that time of their three-year bind cycle that they're raising our hand and then you have another what, six, seven, 8% or so, that they're open to it. And then you get the deep waters where you need the good tense and strength line. And there's 30% who are the market that's not thinking about it, 30% don't think that they're interested in it. And then there's 30% who know they're not interested. And you've made a living. You've made a career fishing in those waters and nurturing those little fish that turn into lunkers over time. What's your secret in doing that?
Marc Hodgson (09:38):
I'll give some credit to a colleague of mine. That's been here with Connect and Sell since the beginning, John Jackson. And I heard very early on when I started here at Connect and Sell, John Jackson has thousands of people in his addressable market, right? His own little market he's looking to dominate. He just talks to them two, three, four times a year. And when they're ready to buy, they buy from John Jackson. And I thought about that and I thought, "Wow." It takes four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 conversations sometimes before the time is right. And you guys talk a lot about trust and that person, that buyer, that group, that company trusts you more than they trust themselves.
Marc Hodgson (10:22):
And I realized John's been doing it for years. He's mastered that part of the ocean that no one dares dive down to. He owns it. That's his realm. And you know, that... I took that to heart very early on. So for me, it's about building a massive queue of relevant conversations and second conversations. And quite frankly, no one can get to them faster than I can. And no one can build more relationships because people only play that which they stay above the surface. So it's the low-hanging fruit. They pick up the apples that have fallen out of the tree. They dare not climb up and fill their bushel.
Chris Beall (11:02):
That's interesting. You know what fights over the apples on the ground? At any farm, what fights over the apples on the ground is the pigs. And it's not a pretty sight.
Corey Frank (11:12):
When you look at Marc's approach, Chris, and you see that these little acorns are turning into big trees over time. If you... because you're living it at Connect and Sell, certainly with how dominant you guys are and how dominant you are, particularly this year, the year that you're killing it here. What if you had... if I was a manufacturing or if I was in real estate or if I was in software and I had an entire team that approached in this way, I'd love your thoughts on that reciprocal effect. Because I think that as sales managers and sales leaders, we're not wired to coach our reps to process that way, to work that way. That market's working, correct? Because I have the pressures of a month, a quarter quota, here's your dial tributes or what have you. So from a leader perspective, what are the long-term gains I can expect if I play long ball, if I play true blue ocean strategy versus red ocean?
Chris Beall (12:09):
Yeah. What's so interesting to me. It has been for quite a while, and it was John Jackson and Shawn McLaren who taught me this as that the blue ocean is separated from the red ocean in time, not in space. That is... all you have to do is either go back in time. That is go back in their time to where the prospect is early in the process of even considering, or even not considering... to just go back there and talk to them in their time earlier, and the ocean's always blue. That is, there is no competitors. The definition of a blue ocean is there are no competitors. And it's thought that blue ocean strategy is generally around product differentiation, but product differentiation in the modern world is almost impossible. We actually have at Connect and Sell, which is kind of funny that I say that it's almost impossible, but we're an example of where it's... I tell you what, it ain't easy to achieve product differentiation and the way we've done it, we've kind of stumbled into it.
Chris Beall (13:05):
And then I happened to be kind of a fanatic about patents and know-how and learning how to do things that other's aren't willing to do quite frankly. And it is a dirty job. It's like, you don't want product differentiation? Clean sewers, right? You'll have product differentiation in a hurry compared to people who they're the street sweepers. They have less. And the folks who are waiting tables have less yet. And you know, the host or hostess in the restaurant has the least. There's not much product differentiation up there, but there sure is once you go down the sewers, because nobody wants to do it. And guess what? There's a lot of tricks to cleaning sewers. Once you learn how to do it, then the guy that doesn't want to do it isn't willing to learn how to do it, right? So that's the standard blue ocean theory is as a product-led theory.
Chris Beall (13:50):
But it turns out there's a universal theory of blue oceans that says, I don't need a whole blue ocean, just give me 11 twelfths. 11 twelfths of the whole lotion being my blue... good enough for me. So all I have to do is travel in time to an earlier point in the consideration cycle for everybody who intrinsically needs my solution and go make those relationships happen from a CEO perspective, it has profound financing implications. It means, especially if you don't want to give up control of your company, you've got to figure out how to finance from current sales, while setting up for future sales, which you can only be assured of on a portfolio basis. But as you... you don't know any specific thing's going to happen.
Chris Beall (15:14):
Portfolio math is the only math in business. Anybody who tells you that they got some other kind of cool math is a charlatan or an idiot. They're a charlatan saying I can control things that they can't control, or they're an idiot saying I can control things that I can't control, but I don't know I can't control them. Those are your two ends of the spectrum. When I first met Cheryl Turner, who was on one of our episodes, she came to the conclusion that I was either a charlatan or an idiot within the first probably minute and a half of me talking to her team at a primary intelligence... at a test drive. 10 minutes later, she came back in the room, made sure it was empty and said, I thought you were a charlatan or idiot, but now I actually think that you guys are... that you have the truth. They were right, because she started talking to lots of people.
Corey Frank (16:00):
So it was mutually exclusive, those terms that she tried?
Chris Beall (16:04):
Exactly charlatans and idiots... the Venn diagram has no intersection. They're like over here, right? They're just way apart from each other.
Corey Frank (16:11):
Okay. And for those with only a seven years of community college education here, what do you mean by portfolio math first?
Chris Beall (16:17):
Well portfolio math basically says this, "In the face of ignorance, we need more bets." And so more smaller bets will yield more consistently on a risk adjusted basis than a smaller number of sure things. The sure things are never as sure as you think, and a larger number of less sure things are more sure. And the math itself of portfolios is a big deal in that it's what I call the multiplicative math. That is your risk actually goes down as you multiply the risks of the individual elements of your portfolio. So your risk of one thing that's got... they call it "all your eggs in one basket," except it's actually the worst case is one egg in one basket. And then the very worst is one egg with no basket and you're holding it in your hand. And then the very worst is one egg in one basket.
Chris Beall (17:07):
What could go wrong? Right? And that's the... that is the... I'll say the charlatans view of the world. What could go wrong? The idiots view of the world, I'm just going to do a bunch of stuff, see what happens. So the portfolio, whether you're an investor investing in a whole bunch of businesses or in a whole bunch of stocks or issues or whatever, or you're an investor, like a salesperson, like Marc. Marc's an investor. Right? What is he doing? He's investing his time, because that's all he's got. Right? I'm not accepting his money. Sorry, Marc. Your money is no good here. Right? But his time is good here. So he invests his time. So now the question is in how many potential future deals at how many different stages, if they're all at the same stage, the risk is higher. If they're all at different stages, the risk is lower for a bunch of interesting reasons.
Chris Beall (18:02):
One of which is fundamentally the risk is lower because there are different stages and you have variety. The other, which is the slower ones, represent an opportunity for Marc to learn more. So one thing we tend to ignore in sales is we learn more in long relationships than in short relationships.
Corey Frank (18:20):
Yep.
Chris Beall (18:20):
And so not only do we build trust, we build knowledge. Marc knows an awful lot about his largest potential customer right now. His... he's very patient. His largest potential customer happens to be a big company whose headquarters has something to do with that flag behind you there. And that company moves at a certain pace and its U.S. operation moves at a different pace than that. And it's various pieces that they've got to make individual decisions because of the way that their budgeting and allocation process works. And, and, and, and so Marc needs to patiently wait. While he's waiting, he's learning because he keeps interacting, providing value, help, and keeps learning things as he goes along.
Chris Beall (19:07):
So when you play the long game in your portfolio, you're not only broad, but you're deep in time. You dominate the market earlier and more certainly. You actually know you'll dominate. We all show on this. What do you do when you know you're going to nominate, well, stop putting your top people on it, go have them go penetrate a new market because your portfolio of markets is what... that you dominate, is what reduces your risk of going out of business.
Chris Beall (19:32):
This stuff is, is evident and talked about among passive investors. And interestingly enough, when it comes to our time as salespeople, we are actually mostly passive investors. We're stuck in that position because we can't make anything happen. So what we have to do is engage in many places and let some things happen. The portfolio, when it's big enough, let something happen. I happen to be marrying somebody who is in her last... now how many days, what is this? A third, the last 27 days of her fiscal year. She carries a big quota. In the something that starts at the B and has numbers after it, right? She doesn't have very many customers, a few handful. She's pretty relaxed. She's going to go for a walk with me after this. We're going to go kayaking.
Corey Frank (20:26):
Yet another woman, [crosstalk 00:20:28] another woman who was in your life, who has decided that you are neither a charlatan or a liar, so.
Chris Beall (20:34):
Well, if she has decided if I'm a charlatan or an idiot, she's holding out...
Corey Frank (20:38):
Oh, that's right. Idiot.
Chris Beall (20:39):
Because my piano playing is so appealing. You never know. It could be the barefoot running, but I don't think so. So Marc, jump in here because this goes to the depths I think of what you're about.
Marc Hodgson (20:51):
Yeah. You said something really interesting. When you talk about portfolio math, I think people are going to jump right to my existing customers, my existing investments. Right? And yeah, I've got some risks and some long shots and big and small and whatnot. And what you're saying there, I think is, I deeply believe in you absolutely need to be running the top of the funnel as a portfolio as well. That's the game-changer. One of the things that I think is really important is the idea about the false negatives and the false positives. Right? We're so scared sometimes that it's important to explore with curiosity, to not miss false negatives, because we don't know what we don't know until we know it. Right? And it takes time, to your point, to really discover more deeply where they are and where they can fit in your portfolio. We don't manage, build a portfolio and service it, but not just in your customer base, but in your prospect and your relationship base. I think that's a gap that some people don't connect those two dots.
Corey Frank (22:05):
When you look at this, Marc, from a producer, from a production perspective, and Chris put your sales leader hat on. If I had to replicate this, oftentimes my investors aren't going to let me play the long ball. Right? They're not going to let me play this long game. Doesn't matter if I show them the portfolio math or not. Right? Hey, they got... we got bills. They want valuation. They see this company and they're in the space getting X valuation. And this one's aging that why multiple, how do you manage those expectations or so, and keep the eye on the long-term prize, which is again, the market domination and many of these portfolios that you can get?
Chris Beall (22:49):
Well, that had to be a question for me because thank God Marc doesn't have to deal with investors and that kind of crap. Right? So I'll take it first hand. If you're going to run something, make a deal that allows you to succeed. I mean, you got to make a deal with the money. And the money comes from two places. It comes from somebody writing a check and it comes from going out and selling stuff. And you've got to understand what their balance... what that balance is. And you've got to figure out how to run a market dominance play within the bounds of what the money will be allowing, not comfortable with. The money is never comfortable with anything other than an instantaneous return that exceeds expectations. That's whether it's your own money or not, but if you're going to play, make sure you're playing on a field where you have a chance.
Chris Beall (23:39):
I remember once I took a soccer team out on a field and we'd never lost. This was the bug squad team that kicked the ball out of bounds every single time they laid a foot on it. Drove other teams crazy. They went from never being in a game to never losing a game. And finally, they're in a game they're threatened to lose. You know why? Because the Colorado Rapids practice field is tilted toward the South by about one degree. And when you're playing uphill, it's hard. It's really hard. So don't get in a situation where you're playing uphill in advance, unless you like that kind of stuff and you're willing to eat the consequence. And the consequence might be that you have to sacrifice your time portfolio in favor of something else and you don't get to dominate. The other thing is you divide your business immediately at the very beginning into two parts.
Chris Beall (24:30):
And part one is the long play. That's what Marc is, he's our long play. Part two, which looks like part one, if you look at it by numbers, but it's not is the financing play. And the way you run that is you have your most senior executives sell in the red ocean, because your most senior executives can always sell. They can sell on any color, ocean red, blue, green, blood drenched, doesn't make any difference. These are the people who can go into battle that what I call, and I think I've mentioned this on a show, the sword fight in the darkroom. If you are at that point in your career, where you win every single sword fight in a dark room, then go win some for the company and bring in some cash so that everybody else can play a long game and you can do it without interference from the outside money.
Chris Beall (25:26):
And so that's how you actually allow yourself to play the long game is don't ask your long game players to play the short game. You play the short game. This is one of the reasons CEO's should sell. I was talking to a CEO today, Dashur, and he said, "I like Larry Ellison's phrase. If you're not creating a product or selling a product, what are you doing here?" And that's one of those things that people sometimes take as Larry being macho. But what it really is, is Larry being smart. He's saying in terms of our independence of action, our ability to execute strategy, we've got to make money today also.
Corey Frank (26:08):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (26:09):
But my view is don't waste your reps time, your reps are your future. They're playing long games. Their portfolio can be much bigger yours, but if you're a leader... you're a company leader and you're not out there selling for gross profit contribution, that's what you sell for. Then you're letting the team down because you're causing the situation or allowing a situation where outside money is going to control whether your market dominance team gets to run the long play that needs to be run. The sword fight in the darkroom is not comfortable for everybody, but I guarantee you, every senior person who runs a company knows how to do it. Sometimes they have to be thrown into the darkroom a few times and come out dripping and ask whose blood that is. Right? Sometimes that's the way it is, but that's what we're good at. And so that's how you divide it up. It's super simple. It's super simple, but it's not often done.
Corey Frank (27:06):
So in essence then, and Marc you could chime in on this, right? Chris, you're saying that you need folks like Marc on that wall as a hedge, against getting diluted by having to go to the capital markets or going to the other investor markets to get more capital, with Marc's hedge against that. And Marc, you have a CEO on the wall, right, who's a hedge to support you to continue to do what you're doing on the 11 twelfths to the market, because his contribution helps bring in those margins that allow you to keep the lights on, pay the medical insurance, advise you times you guys can live to fight another day. So I hear that as an organization, you need both those elements.
Corey Frank (27:52):
If you just had a CEO who sold for margin and everybody in the short game and a red ocean, that's not very effective.
Chris Beall (27:59):
Right.
Corey Frank (27:59):
If you have all three components, you have a short-term team, you have a long-term deep pyramid, a blue ocean too. And you have a mindset of a CEO, or like you have with Jonti as well, right? A VP of sales who also contributes. And I guess in your case, you would even have a chairman who contributes.
Chris Beall (28:16):
We do. We were very fortunate. We have three senior executives who sell a lot, but we're not... it goes on the books as cash and revenue, but in my mind, it doesn't go there. Our contribution is financing.
Corey Frank (28:32):
Yes.
Chris Beall (28:32):
And what we're doing is maintaining independence of action.
Corey Frank (28:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (28:35):
That's our job is to maintain independence of action. The action is actually not our action. The action is Marc's action and his colleagues who are building that deep, deep portfolio over time and over accounts, and sometimes even over the edge of markets where we'll... it's like water splashing out of a glass, right? You carry the glass around. If it's pretty full, it's going to splash here and there. Every once in a while, you're going to splash over into another market and you learn something. So that learning is taking place with Marc and Matt, and Seth, and all these folks. We don't have a big team, but it's a learning team. And as they execute, they're actually executing in another dimension. They're executing in deep time. Whereas my fellow executives and myself, so it's myself, it's Jonti and Shawn, the three guys who keep the lights on. We're simply avoiding. It's not dilution of money. That's not interesting. It's dilution of purpose. We're avoiding dilution of purpose...
Corey Frank (29:42):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (29:42):
By going out and winning some sword fights.
Marc Hodgson (29:46):
That's it, right? I mean, that provides us the sales directors the ability to go out there and stay curious and be open-minded to discovering things in new markets and new customers that we normally wouldn't if we run a very flat playbook. Right? We explore and talk to customers that you'd never think would be a good fit. And we learn this and we share this. So you're right, Chris, it frees us up to get out there and exponentially harvest learnings and markets and build portfolios that we otherwise wouldn't. We never would if we were governed to a playbook that was narrow. We get to go wide and that's fun.
Corey Frank (30:31):
So, Marc, how do you taste blood in this world? Right? Because as sales... sales guys and gals, right? Sometimes we'll buy your where... we want to ring the gong. Right? Every day, every week or so. And the month of the quarter and playing long ball and having a currency... an alternative currency, if you will, by building long-term relationships, now you've seen a reciprocal effect. You've seen them go though the entire life cycle, so you know how the movie ends, but how do you maintain that level of motivation and blood lust along the way with the activities that you're doing?
Marc Hodgson (31:06):
I'm a competitive person. I think there.. our whole team has that aspect. So I pride myself to be on the top of the leaderboard metrically, but intrinsically, I drive a lot of value from that know personally. Right? So that's part of it. That's it... and everybody here is kind of built that way, I believe, so that's a lot of fun. But I think it's more of the curiosity factor. I really, truly do. Chris has talked about this. I do have that core belief that when I get on the phone, that there's going to be value in a conversation that I can have with people. We're going to learn together, whether we ever do business together. And that's sort of my core belief throughout the sales cycle, whether it's the top of the funnel conversation, a discovery conversation, them getting the opportunity to experience one of our intensive test drive days, which is the best day that you can have because you learn so much about them as people and their culture and their process. And those are the best days that we have here, our test drive day. So for me, it's about getting there and having them have the experience. The rest takes care of itself.
Corey Frank (32:24):
Yeah.
Announcer (32:28):
Today's show is also brought to you by Uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern, innovative sales and scripting tool set, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with Uncommonpro.com.
Announcer (32:58):
Never miss an episode, go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to MarketDominanceGuys.com and subscribe.
On our podcast this week, our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, is flying solo with an episode about selecting the best SDR to have discovery conversations with senior-level prospects. You might subscribe to the “cheaper cold callers are better” mindset, but Chris presents some well- thought-out reasons to put your money where your telephone’s mouthpiece is. That’s right — once again, Market Dominance Guys is asking you to look at the scary spot — cold calls — and rethink what would work best. Chris’ contention is that people holding senior-level positions are much more likely to respond to and connect with someone who has the same level of experience or background they have.
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Here’s what he says: “If somebody is worth having a meeting with, then have a senior person be the contact.” He means, have that person conduct each call in the sales process, from first conversation, through follow-up calls or rescheduling a missed meeting, to the discovery call. Why? Because it’s a lot easier to set a meeting or to get accurate discovery information when talking with a senior person if the caller is also a senior person. Generally, there will be a shared background or job experience that will create a connection between these two senior-level people. As good old Mom used to tell us, “You never get a second chance to make a first impression.” So, put your best, most experienced, highest level cold caller’s foot forward. There are plenty of other sales-related tasks better suited for your young SDRs. Yep. Doing what works: That’s what it’s all about on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Best Frog- Kisser for the Job.”
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
Here is the full transcript from this episode: Announcer (00:48):
On our podcast this week, our Market Dominance guy, Chris Beall is flying solo with an episode about selecting the best SDR to have discovery conversations with senior level prospects. You might subscribe to the cheaper, cold callers or better mindset, but Chris presents some well-thought-out reasons to put your money where your telephones mouthpiece is.
(01:07):
That's right. Once again, Market Dominance Guys is asking you to look at the scary spot, cold calls, and rethink what would work best. Chris's contention is that people holding senior level positions are much more likely to respond to and connect with someone who has the same level of experience or background they have. Here's what he says.
(01:27):
"If somebody is worth having a meeting with, then have a senior person be the contact." He means, have that person conduct each call in the sales process, from first conversation, through follow-up calls or rescheduling a missed meeting, to the discovery call.
(01:42):
Why? Because it's a lot easier to set a meeting or to get accurate discovery information when talking with a senior person, if the caller is also a senior person. Generally, there will be a shared background or job experience that will create a connection between these two senior level people.
(01:58):
As good old mom used to tell us, "You never get a second chance to make a good first impression." So put your best, most experienced, highest level cold callers foot forward. There are plenty of other sales related tasks better suited for your young SDRs.
(02:13):
Yep. Doing what works. That's what it's all about on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, The Best Frog- Kisser for the Job.
Chris Beall (02:22):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to a solo episode of Market Dominance Guys. This is Chris Beall, one of your two co-hosts. Corey Frank and I, have not quite been able to get it together, to get it together and put an episode down. And it is Memorial Day weekend, so I figured I'd leave Corey alone to enjoy time with his family, and I'd come down here to the beach and tell you what I think about the world of SDRs.
Chris Beall (02:51):
So here's what I think. SDRs became very popular mostly because Aaron Ross wrote a really cool book called Predictable Revenue. And in Predictable Revenue he said, we should specialize, we should have folks who work really at the top of the funnel who are going out and identifying new business opportunities and engaging with them, bringing them to meetings and getting them into the funnel really proactively.
Chris Beall (03:18):
And back in the day, that could be done with email, and so there was a lot of email involved. It can still be done a little bit with email. It's a lot easier to do just by calling people and talking to them. Although that's not easy, because you're going to go to voicemail probably 23 out of 24 times. So then you could cheat and use something like our product ConnectAndSell. And then you push a button and talk to somebody and suddenly conversations can be how you move forward.
Chris Beall (03:44):
Now here's my point, is once you elect to go conversation first, use a conversation as the very first way that you interact with somebody, a whole bunch of stuff happens, and some of it has something to do with SDRs. Why is that? Well, first let's look at what happens.
Chris Beall (04:02):
When we talk to somebody, especially a senior person, a decision maker, and we talk to them directly, we have a problem at the very beginning and the problem is they don't want to talk to us. Why? Well, they don't know who we are. Frankly we scare them. We're the invisible stranger on the other end of the phone, a whole bunch of reasons that they don't want to talk to us. They want to get off that phone call with their self-image intact.
Chris Beall (04:26):
And fortunately, we can use that fact in order to get them to talk to us, or at least listen to us a little bit. And then we can, as Cheryl Turner has said so artfully, we can turn if into when, and how do we do that? Well, we do this. We say something like, "I know I'm an interruption, can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" And then when they say, "Hmm, yeah. Go ahead" or whatever they say, we say what we're going to say, which is I kind of like this breakthrough script.
Chris Beall (04:57):
"I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates," and then you completely eliminate some three bad things. One of them being a bad economic thing, that's time, risk or money. One of them being a bad emotional thing, often frustration, occasionally something more like fear, but fear is kind of a third rail. Be careful of touching that one, because people don't really like to be told that they're afraid of anything.
Chris Beall (05:21):
And then the last one is what we call strategic, which is something that's standing in their way from getting to where they want to go. Strategy is a list of steps where you want to go and how you're going to get there. So it's not how you're going to execute the steps, it's the list of steps. And if a step is becoming accessible, blocked, too expensive or whatever, and that's something where we're a difference maker, where our product or service can make a difference, then we can mention that.
Chris Beall (05:46):
We have to not mention of course, that we offer a known service or a known product in a known category, or they will say, "We're set". Why will they say we're set? Very, very simple reason. They're looking to get off this call with their self-image intact. And an easy way to do it is for you to blow it, tell them what your category is of product or service, and then they can say quite rightly, already got that covered. And you can't say much about that.
Chris Beall (06:15):
So you avoid all that. And then you point out that it'd be a great idea to finish this off by doing what you promised. "So the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available?" Say it in a playful, curious voice.
Chris Beall (06:32):
Now, if you go through all of that and then when they say, "Well, I don't know," or whatever, you do the Cheryl Turner play, you manufacture a no-show. No shows are the most powerful thing in business, because once you get them on the phone again, which you will be able to do again if you're using this, as Jerry Hill calls it, cheat code, called ConnectAndSell, then it's really straightforward.
Chris Beall (06:56):
You're going to talk to them after they don't show up for the meeting and say, "Hey, we had something on our calendar for 9:00 AM yesterday, and something must have come up for you. Is now a better time to talk about when we could get something back on the calendar?" And you have that conversation. It might take one, two, three times, but here's a funny thing, by the way, the very, very senior people will show up. CEOs show up almost every time to something that's on their calendar. It's kind of how they live their lives.
Chris Beall (07:23):
More junior people, they're often pulled this way in that. And so they've got a lot of reasons to talk to somebody else that day, rather than talk to you. And that moment something might've come up, they fight more fires is actually what their lives are like. And that's all right. Just go ahead and have that conversation and reschedule.
Chris Beall (07:41):
And remember this, you've just made a list automatically and managed a list of people who actually answer the phone. So that's pretty good, because you know they answer to the phone, they answered the phone before, and now they've answered it twice because you're talking to them about rescheduling. So all is well, they'll answer it over and over, it's their habit. And you can talk to them repeatedly until they actually show up at the meeting. At which point you can have a further conversation with them in which you actually share your breakthrough.
Chris Beall (08:11):
So how do you blow this? Well, one way to blow it is to put a junior person on the phone talking to a senior person. Oren Klaff talks about what we call status alignment or what he calls status alignment, and I sure call it that now. Status alignment is about making sure the other person is aligned with you and you're aligned with them regarding your status in the conversation, that you're equals. And that's a little harder to do when you're just fresh out of school. And you've been put on quote, unquote, the phones in order to talk to people.
Chris Beall (08:43):
You can learn it, but it's harder. It's a lot easier to do when, guess what? You already have that person's status because you have 10, 15, 20 years into the business, you know a thing or two.
Chris Beall (08:56):
And when you talk to them, that will come out two ways. One is in your voice, you will sound different. You'll sound confident. You'll sound like you know what you're talking about, because guess what? You know what you're talking about. The other is when they check you out before coming to the meeting or check out whoever it is that you've set the meeting with, they're going to remember very little. When they check you up, they're going to note, is this somebody I want to meet with or not?
Chris Beall (09:21):
So the easiest meeting to get somebody to come to, and pay attention to, is a meeting that is set by a senior person for themselves, that's an account executive, making their own calls, or for somebody even more senior, say their CEO and there's a reason for that. And this one is not obvious to most folks, but think about it this way.
Chris Beall (09:44):
If somebody is worth having a meeting with, because the data says they're worth having a meeting with, why don't you get off on your best foot and have a meeting with the most senior person available, maybe it's your CEO, who could spend 15 minutes and let this person know why you're really in business, how you're really trying to help people. What it's all really about.
Chris Beall (10:06):
Your CEO or somebody like that, will have a story or two or three about how they got there. They'll be credible. They'll be interesting. They'll share backgrounds with folks.
Chris Beall (10:18):
I had a meeting just this week with somebody and it turns out we both worked at Sun Microsystems and there was a lot to talk about there. But it was a long time ago, 20-something, on my case, 30-something years ago. But we had a lot to talk about there. And we had other things to talk about as a result.
Chris Beall (10:35):
It's not like we're going to have a social conversation. It's just that people's status align around a whole bunch of things, and familiarity, a shared past, that sort of thing can be helpful. If you don't have a past, if you're a 23-year-old SDR, you don't have much of a past, it's hard to have a shared past with a senior person. So it's more difficult to status align.
Chris Beall (11:30):
So you've got to get status alignment before you can get to the point of executing what Corey Frank calls or Oren Klaff calls, Corey calls it that too, a flash role. That's where you casually speak fairly quickly about something that only an expert would know, treating it as something routine. And in our case, it's really simple.
Chris Beall (11:52):
I'll go to a ConnectAndSell leaderboard, and we'll take a look at it. And I'll just say this, I'll say, "Well, take a look there. There's Rob. And Rob is one of our inside salespeople. And Rob has used ConnectAndSell today for three hours, 27 minutes and 35 seconds. And during that time he's had 46 conversations. And out of those 46 conversations, he's set three meetings."
Chris Beall (12:16):
So Rob's probably feeling pretty good today, because 2.3 meetings is his goal. And how did he do that? Well, he pressed that go button that's up at the top. And he waited a little bit. Whenever he wanted a conversation and only when he wanted a conversation. And then he waited. How long did he wait? Three minutes and 54 seconds on average.
Chris Beall (12:34):
Now all that is not very instructive, but it is something interesting, especially when I add, "And Rob did not have to dial the phone once. All he did was pushed a button 46 times, and in the background, what happened was however many dials, you know, 857 dials." So that's a bit of a flash role. You'll have your own.
Chris Beall (12:58):
But if you're a senior, your flash role is better because the fact that you are an expert, makes you sound like an expert and the idea of the flash role is to allow somebody else to be confident in you as an expert, because what is surprising and special to them, what is unusual, what would require expert knowledge is casual and routine to you, and they can tell in the way that you deliver it.
Chris Beall (13:21):
So it's a lot easier to run a sales play, where a senior person sets a meeting for themselves and holds that meeting, or a senior person sets a meeting for an even more senior person, and they hold the meeting together. In which case there's also something to talk about, which is the person who set the meeting, in case that's a reasonable way to use their time. And then you can pass it off to a sales person, should there be a reason to move forward.
Chris Beall (13:50):
So the inversion of this play in which the standard play is start with a junior person because, hey, you're going to have to go through a lot, kiss a lot of frogs, they say, so why don't you assign somebody to kiss the frogs?
Chris Beall (14:01):
Well, the fact is if you assign somebody to kiss the frogs, not very many of them are going to turn into princess or princesses, whichever you prefer. Those frogs are pretty much going to stay frogs, and that's not what you're looking for.
Chris Beall (14:15):
So find yourself a good frog kisser to have the first conversation and especially to take the first meeting. After that, everything's a lot easier. Because really when you come right down to it, you want to have the choices and you don't have very many choices if you have a meeting with somebody who kind of doesn't think that you're that interesting.
Chris Beall (14:36):
So leave the junior people for other work. In fact, research work is great. Learning to cold call is great, but not sure they should be calling the most senior people to set meetings. So they could be calling to ask questions or do all manner of other things.
Chris Beall (14:51):
And don't treat it as a training ground, because if you treat the SDR function as a training ground for being an AE, what you're doing is wasting the top of your funnel. In fact, you're wasting it in a really horrifying way. You are taking the opportunities that are most difficult to identify because you have the least information, and you're providing really an experience that is most likely to cause them to not be interested or cause you to not be interested as a company in going further with them.
Chris Beall (15:21):
So you're going to walk right by some of your very best opportunities, that if a more senior person had actually had the first conversation, and the follow-up conversation, and the appointment rescheduling conversation, and then an even more senior person had had the first discovery call, which would be mutual discovery, not interrogation, which is such a sad and common thing. Then what you'll do is run a very clean top of funnel, that'll give you very pure feedback about the most important thing, which is ultimately your list, because your list is the definition of your market.
Chris Beall (15:55):
So consider this possibility the next time that you're looking at designing or executing one of these sales plays, that your best resource to have a first conversation is a senior resource. And your best, best resource to have a discovery conversation is somebody even more senior than that. And the past can then be down to more junior people who can handle the next steps. The mechanics.
Chris Beall (16:21):
Say there was a demo to be done, or there's some exploration of how you would actually do business together, some due diligence. That kind of work can be done by lots and lots of people.
Announcer (16:34):
Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
In this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guys, you’ll get to listen in on part 2 of the conversation between our own Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, and our guest, Mark Roberts, CEO, and founder of OTB Solutions. These two experts hold the same unfaltering belief about the importance of the first conversation a sales rep has with a prospect: they’ve learned that the cold caller has to believe in the potential value of the discovery meeting they are offering in order to be successful at setting that meeting.
Mark works as a consultant with CEOs of manufacturing companies, many of whom have voiced the lament, “Why can’t my sales department run like my plant?” Mark thinks that sales really can be a science. “There are dollars in your data if you know where to look,” he says. So, how do you get a CEO to say, “Oh! Belief really does count!”? Show them the numbers. Chris and Mark know that every time a CEO listens in on his reps’ sales calls during one of ConnectAndSell’s intensive test drives, they can easily discern the difference between reps who believe in the value of the meeting and reps who don’t — just by looking at the conversation-to-meeting ratio. They can see what “good” looks like and how much fun reps have when they are successful. Marks explains it like this: “Belief, worthy intent, and fun change the quality of the rep’s output. These things that sound ‘squishy’ are the bedrock of success.” And bringing market dominance to worthy manufacturers is the bedrock of this episode of Market Dominance Guys, “Why Can’t Sales Run Like My Plant?”
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About Our Guest
Mark Allen Roberts, CEO and founder of OTB Solutions, works with company leaders to improve sales and profits by leveraging a data-driven, no smoke and mirrors approach to driving profitable sales growth through assessing sales teams’ skills, motivations, and beliefs and then providing strategic development to improve their performance.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
Here is the full transcript from this episode: In this week's episode of Market Dominance Guys, you'll get to listen in on part two of the conversation between our own Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall and our guest Mark Roberts, CEO and founder of OTB solutions. These two experts hold the same unfaltering belief about the importance of the first conversation, a sales rep has with a prospect. They've learned that the cool caller has to believe in the potential value of the discovery meeting they are offering in order to be successful at setting that meeting. Mark works as a consultant with CEOs of manufacturing companies, many of whom have voices lament, why can't my sales department run like my plant? Mark thinks that sales really can be a science.
Announcer (01:22):
"There are dollars in your data if you know where to look", he says, so how do you get a CEO to say, "oh, belief really does count. Show them the numbers." Chris and Mark know that every time a CEO listens in on his rep sales calls during one of ConnectAndSell's intensive test drives, they can easily discern the difference between reps who believe in the value of the meeting and reps who don't just by looking at the conversation to meeting ratio. They can see what good looks like and how much fun reps have when they aren't successful.
Announcer (01:53):
Mark explains it like this, belief, worthy intent and fun change the quality of a reps output. These things that sounds squishy are the bedrock of success and bring you market dominance to worry the manufacturers is the bedrock of this episode of Market Dominance Guys. Why can't sales run like my plant?
Chris Beall (02:22):
It's so interesting. And that worthy intent part is such a big deal. We went through something a few years ago with a manufacturing company in this case also, where they asked us to do some calling for them, which is something we did for a while. And then we backed off of that and let our partners like young blood works, Corey Frank runs that company, my podcast cohost and others who want to use ConnectAndSell in a setting appointments to do it. But we were doing it ourselves a little bit at the time and we were getting terrible results for a week. And a week of ConnectAndSells it, is a lot.
Mark Roberts (02:55):
That's a lot of conversation.
Chris Beall (02:56):
Four people we... It's a lot. It was roughly speaking, 600 conversations.
Mark Roberts (03:02):
Wow.
Chris Beall (03:02):
And with four people that were working in that week, about 150 each and they were getting horrible results. And yet we knew that the scripting was good. The breakthrough script that we use, we know that it's effective if used correctly. They sounded good, but there was something a little off and over the weekend, I was out for a long run. And I suddenly thought, I know what the problem is. They don't believe.
Mark Roberts (03:25):
Yup.
Chris Beall (03:26):
These people don't believe in the potential value of the meeting as a learning experience for the person they're talking with, regardless of whether business ever gets done any further. And so, went back to the customer to the company and said, "hey, could you dig up one or two folks who would have a very clean recollection of their first discovery meeting with your company?" And they could tell our reps, our top of funnel reps, what the customer learned from that meeting that changed their life.
Mark Roberts (04:00):
Right. That's [crosstalk 00:04:02].
Chris Beall (04:01):
And they found somebody and we had that person. The science was really something because we'd gone through this baselining without intending to.
Chris Beall (04:11):
And then we did this. We suspended all calling on Monday. And this person simply spoke from the heart for about 30 minutes, about how working with this company. It changed their life but the main thing was what they learned in that meeting even if they'd never moved forward that they found so valuable. And suddenly our people, same script, same list, same everything. Just add belief in the potential value of the meeting, backed up by the words of somebody who got value from that meeting. And they went from setting 3.2% of their conversations to meetings, to setting 12.6% and they did it in one day, just changing the belief switch. And I find that fascinating.
Mark Roberts (04:55):
Yeah. You reframe the mindset. They had a limiting belief. I'm going to go through this. I don't know if it's going to be a value. You demonstrated that it was tremendous value. And then they led with worthy intent. I applaud what you did. Oftentimes, they might have the technology, but they lack the training, but you guys provide the script and the coaching and the psychology of the call. I think what's going to ultimately happen as more manufacturers engage with you, the bottleneck is going to move. It's going to move to the conversation and it's going to move to closing. It's going to move to negotiating, but at least we'll be having conversations with people that we can serve. And we know they have problems that we can help them with. So, yeah, I think you guys really were onto something back then with the worthy intent.
Chris Beall (05:43):
Well, as a guest at the time, it was desperate because I'd taken on this. Basically it was like a skin in the game contract. It was such a good partner. I decided to do it. And then I realized, oh my God, talk about the tide going out. And then you look go, I forgot my swim trunks. So I felt pretty bad about having taken on that contract. And what I think is interesting is... I'm a very analytic guys. I'm a physicist mathematician by training and you don't go into those fields unless you're analytic. I don't know a lot of people that go, I think for four years, I'm going to sit here and work equations, like partial differential equations and stuff like that because I just think it's something a person should know how to do it.
Chris Beall (06:31):
You do it because you're naturally inclined to do it. So I'm a very analytical person and what my analysis would normally have not found. And I think most analytical people would agree with me is putting in potential ingredients, like belief, worthy intent, fun and believing that these are important, concrete, measurable, critical inputs and indications of the quality of outputs. I think funds and indication of the quality of the output that you're putting out for a mission critical business process on which their entire company's life depends.
Chris Beall (07:10):
I think a lot of people who become CEOs of these manufacturing companies are pretty analytical people. They've got to be.
Mark Roberts (07:16):
They are.
Chris Beall (07:17):
They go out on the floor, I've been out on the floor with tons of them and they can see what's going on. They analyze it quickly. You put the spreadsheet in front of them and they go, "yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not right" or "that is right" or "that means that's right", there like that. So it tends not to occur to them that these things that sound squishy are in fact, the bedrock of success, not for a function, but for the whole company, it just doesn't seem right. Do you find... Is that a problem as you see it to get them over that hump? How do you get a CEO to go, "oh, belief counts", right? It makes all the difference.
Mark Roberts (07:57):
Well, and again, I think a lot of times the strategy that I use is they want to see a business case. They want to see proof. So I asked them. Let me have 30 of your people for 60 days. Let me show you what good looks like. And once they see that, it's just like, when they're working in the plant and they're trying to improve efficiency and lower their manufacturing variance, it's a science. Well, sales can be a science if you know where to look and what data to look at.
Mark Roberts (08:27):
I just started a couple of videos that says, there's dollars in your data if you know where to look. And what's nice about ConnectAndSell is it gives you the data and you can constantly coach and improve. So the top of the funnel, if that's the problem you're trying to solve, very quickly, you're going to be able to adjust your message. You're going to be able to adjust your tone and in constantly make it stronger until you see a repeatable model that works. And then once you get the meeting, how many of those meetings are converting into business? Conversations that turn into revenue? Now that might be your bottleneck, but each one of these involves a training and technology and coaching.
Chris Beall (09:09):
Yeah. Driving that bottleneck down and measuring it and having the data is crucial but it's rare. I think it's rare because the current bottleneck for every company I've run into for years is actually, I will call it just above the top of the funnel that they measure. And as a result, there's no metrics coming to them. There's no data coming to them about the one thing that is holding them back. As soon as you bring the bottleneck down into the sales funnel, almost everybody can at least look at it and go, "oh", but until it's there and I say, that's kind of at discovery, the flow rate of discovery meetings until you make that the bottleneck, the tools. I think that most companies have, that most CEOs have at their disposal to measure progress towards new logos, which are, as far as my experiences, those the profitable logos. There before the procurement department on the other side grinds you down over the years.
Mark Roberts (10:08):
Right.
Chris Beall (10:09):
My dad used to be a head of procurement. So I got to watch what procurement did at home. My dad was ran procurement. So, that maybe that's why I'm on the sales side now. So, here's an example, how many companies, how many CEOs would be able to tell you what the prospecting output is? Flow rate is in terms of meetings set per prospecting hour for a rep? Per rep hour spent prospecting?
Mark Roberts (10:40):
I don't think we [crosstalk 00:10:41].
Chris Beall (10:41):
Would you... have you ever met one [crosstalk 00:10:43].
Mark Roberts (10:43):
I haven't met one that could do that. What they would do is they would defer to their VP of sales, ask them, and the VP of sales would have to manually try to figure it out with the CRM, but nobody can tell them for [inaudible 00:10:54] that I'm aware of.
Chris Beall (10:56):
Shockening, right? Because every factory you or I have ever been in, you can go to any point in the factory and ask the question, what is the flow rate?
Mark Roberts (11:07):
Correct.
Chris Beall (11:08):
That is produced at this point. And every manufacturer knows the answer to that question. At every point, every process, every machine, every workstation, all the inputs, all the outputs.
Mark Roberts (11:19):
Well, I think that what thrives [crosstalk 00:11:21]. That statement the CEO has make, which is I wish sales would run like my plant. They know that to be true in a plant. The good news is their sales can run like that, but it just takes a different training. It takes different tools and it takes a different mindset, quite frankly, but again, in a weird way, their gut is right. Sales can run like that and can get you predictable results, but it just needs to be run a little bit different, more scientific, more data-driven than it's ever been before.
Chris Beall (11:55):
Yeah. And I think a lot of people who are going up to try to do something about it, they'll look at the... What they consider, maybe the more leading edge sales companies like software as a service company, SAS companies, maybe even Silicon valley startups and say, let's emulate them. So maybe we'll hire sales, development reps or do whatever. I've got data that says that for account executives, especially those experienced once you've talked about that you can take them and.. I have hard data by the way. This is a hundreds of reps going through what we call flight school. You can take them from this number, the average when you start them out untrained, even using ConnectAndSell. And you had mentioned dials per hour, ConnectAndSell tends to run about 170, 190 dials per hour per rep. So it's about two and a half to three days of dialing.
Chris Beall (12:46):
So to speak, that's done for them per hour. Even with ConnectAndSell. The average number of meeting set per hour per rep is about 0.39. During training, when you take them through a script that works, teach them how to say it, they're now going through what we call flight school during the blitzes, that number goes up to 0.53, that's pretty big lift, right?
Mark Roberts (13:12):
Right.
Chris Beall (13:13):
0.14 over 0.39. It's almost 50%. sustainably in the long run, if they continue to blitz and coach forever, that number actually goes up and up and up. And we'll stabilize around 0.72. This is the actual numbers that we have right now. And we have some companies that are in the 1.2, 1.3 range, but overall, those experienced reps, not going to sales development reps in a separate department setting meetings for them to setting their own meetings. They can do that at a rate of 0.72 per hour.
Chris Beall (13:49):
So if you kept 30 people and they prospected for an hour... Say an hour a day, at the end of a week, of any given week, that three... For five times 0.72, it'd be about 3.5 meetings per week that they would be able to have that you say they would hold with great competency, those discovery meetings. So 3.5 a week is that's 850 meetings a year eight something. If you have 30 of them, that's 30 times 800. Isn't that a big number? Three times 800 is 2,400, 24,000 meetings a year that it would be having. How could that not move the needle?
Mark Roberts (14:33):
Well, it definitely would. But again, we've got to find where the bottleneck is and I think you're right. I think when it comes to prospecting, the biggest bottleneck is just this the first conversation to get the meeting.
Chris Beall (15:23):
Which means that's the bottleneck of the whole company. This is the mission I've been on is to tell CEOs... I'm a CEO, right? If I couldn't go to my board and say an answer to a question, where's the bottleneck of the whole company right now? If I can't answer that question, I'm doomed. I happen to know in my company where the bottleneck is. The bottleneck in my company's in discovery. And it's a mindset issue. In discovery, when your mindset is both to take the next step and to qualify at the same time, it's an approach avoidance issue. It's like watching a horse try to jump a gate when it's not sure it can get over the gate or not sure it should. So it will tend to go around or stop and throw the rider.
Mark Roberts (16:07):
Oh, wow.
Chris Beall (16:08):
There's a commitment that you've got to have to an outcome to accomplish anything. It's like in a golf swing.
Chris Beall (16:14):
If I'm not sure that say, I've got a downhill putt and I'm afraid it's going to run way by the hole, that uncertainty will make me miss all putt short, long, sideways and everything else because I can't commit to an outcome. I'm not willing to take the risk. I believe in my company, my reps by and large don't want to take the risk of taking the wrong prospect through a test drive. And so that's what I get to a desk. And I would tell my board that, that's our problem. But our problem is not at the top of the funnel. No. We set 35 meetings a day like clockwork and that's way more than are needed to run the company. In fact, I've got a little slush factor above that. They spill out. Take... I get some leakage up there that's sideways.
Chris Beall (17:04):
Every CEO should be able to answer that question. I'm flabbergasted. If the problem is sitting right there above the top of their funnel, and that's the truth, that's the true bottleneck. Well, they resist that because they haven't seen it for so many years or are you... Because I look at a guy like you 30 years, 40, whatever. 30... How long is fact 83. 38 years of industrial experience on the sales side, a guy like you should be able to talk to a CEO and say, "hey dude, hard to break this to you. But the bottleneck of your entire company is likely to be in a place where you have zero metrics."
Mark Roberts (17:47):
I'll absolutely. Part of my practice is I do sales effectiveness assessments. And those assessments very quickly, we'll find that people have the will and the desire to hunt. So it's not like your salespeople are lazy or they don't want to try to sell. But when you quickly look at all the data, they lack the skills, the conversations, often technology to have those conversations. But once they have the conversation, they usually score very high in presentation skills, the ability to solve customer's problems, the ability to share insights, they score very high in that. So again, it's like you said, the theory of constraints, what's your constraint? Not many people are measuring dials that I'm aware of in the manufacturing space.
Mark Roberts (18:37):
I know that people in large enterprise software companies do measure outbound calls, the closure rate per call, but in manufacturing, it's not unusual for them to spend a tremendous amount of money to enter into a new market, let's say. And they've spent the development dollars. They spent the capital dollars and then they spend the marketing dollars to open up that market. But what's right in front of them is just the dials. How are you reaching out? How are you getting those conversations started? Have we gone so far as to rely a hundred percent on marketing? I think that's a big mistake.
Chris Beall (19:15):
It's crazy, but it's done.
Mark Roberts (19:16):
It is done.
Chris Beall (19:17):
I would say here's the number most folks don't know at all, which is on average for a manufacturing company, who's got a high end product to sell. Doesn't have to be a million dollars, but say, it's at least 50 to $100,000 per unit that they're selling, perhaps and that it's a considered purchase. How many dials should it take with a competent team, well-trained as a target to get a meeting? And the answer is across other manufacturing companies we're working with 261. So once you know that you'd think you'd want to know, well, okay, are we doing 261 of those whatever per day, per week, per month per rep or not? And yet I would contend most CEOs would look at that and go dial smiles. What's that? Who cares?
Mark Roberts (20:05):
Right. Again, I think we've uncovered the biggest bottleneck for most growth is simply starting the conversation.
Chris Beall (20:13):
So maybe the Biden administration who wants the economy to do well, because that's what you're supposed to do as president. Maybe they should be paying attention to this. They want manufacturing to succeed in America, right?
Mark Roberts (20:24):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (20:25):
And I think what you're saying is it's [inaudible 00:20:29] got all the ingredients of success except for one little issue, which is, it's almost like, imagine. I'm trying to imagine. I'm thinking of a plant and this is happening right now, by the way, in a way, if I was running an automotive plant right now, this is a problem I would have. Semiconductors aren't coming in predictable.
Mark Roberts (20:48):
Right.
Chris Beall (20:49):
My supply chain people are going crazy trying to find semiconductors. They're looking at alternate sources of supply. They're going to designers and saying, can we substitute this chip for these two chips because I can get these? Can you redesign that board?
Chris Beall (21:03):
What can we do? Where are we going? Does anybody have surpluses here and there? Can we go down and quality a little bit? What can we do? And what it feels like if you're running the plant is it's fits and starts. It's like, you're the one thing that you must have to make a car now is Silicon. You have to have chips. Cars are full of chips nowadays. If I'm missing one of those chips, I can't ship the car with some critical function like the thing that makes the anti-lock brakes work, not in the car.
Mark Roberts (21:35):
Right.
Chris Beall (21:37):
That's not they we're geared. Not allowed to do that. So it's almost like you have a door that's on one of your days where you take in your raw materials in your parts in order to feed your factory.
Chris Beall (21:49):
And then the door has a lock on it that opens at random. And it opens every once in a while and then it shuts at random and you go, oh, I guess we got a little something. We can make it, right? Conversations with relevant prospects, play that role in every single company. So we talk about a Silicon shortage or a chip shortage and that's a disaster for the economy and everybody's freaking out, everybody's freaking out. That's all there is to it, right? And yet we've had a conversation shortage that is worse than the chip shortage, but we've just gotten used to it and decided that it's okay.
Mark Roberts (22:29):
One of the biggest challenges that I see is people understand, let's say prospecting, they might have some skill, but very rarely do I see a team that continuously prospects. So what that ends up being is that rollercoaster ride of great month, poor month, great month, poor month. We've got to help our salespeople constantly be reaching out, trying to get new business from new customers, as well as gaining share of wallet at our current accounts. But again, that's going to require skills and technology to do so.
Chris Beall (23:00):
Is there a part of the manufacturing industry, a sub sector that you think is particularly stressed right now? And therefore might be more open-minded or desperate? I like desperation. Some people, it makes them close-minded. Some people, it makes them creative and finding the creative ones is fairly straightforward. You just talk to enough people and somebody will go, "hey, wait a second. That has really been bothering me." You have an answer or a possibility in that area. I want to talk to you. Is there some part of manufacturing, the stress right now with all that's going on that you would say, "yeah, better than others to solve this problem?"
Mark Roberts (23:37):
Well, a number of my clients, whether they're in building supply, metals, plastics, they went from in the middle of the pandemic, seeing sales declines to now, it's the bounces is occurring. So they're struggling just to keep up and grow. But I'd have to think about that. What particular manufacturing area would have the biggest return on investment of fixing the top of their funnel. I think it's something that would benefit every manufacturer though. I've yet to go into a business plan where they didn't lay out, "okay. What's our growth plan next year. Okay, what percent of that is organic? What percent of that is net new logos?" And it typically it's the net new logos that fail year after year.
Mark Roberts (24:21):
You had mentioned sales is getting more difficult. I think it was insidesales.com that's been tracking what percent of salespeople are hitting quota every year. Since 2016, it's consistently gone down every year. I think we're now into the 50 percentile. 56, 53% of salespeople are achieving the quota that the CEO sold to the board and their shareholders. So I think it's just about positioning and building awareness, quite frankly, because most CEOs are very systematic, pragmatic thinkers. And I think we just need to build the awareness of the impact that this could have on their bottom line.
Chris Beall (25:03):
Well, you know how we do that and I'd love to work with you to help open a couple of minds, really. We do this thing called an intensive test drive. As I say to anybody, don't even think about this, just try it with a little group for one day and then we'll talk. And the reason I do that is 10 X is not describable, right?
Chris Beall (25:25):
It's like saying, I got a 600 mile an hour car. God, doesn't sound so good. Plus it doesn't sound so real. So I don't think you have one of them. And plus if I had one, am I going to drive a 600 mile an hour car? That's crazy. I can't do that. So we come in and we got to look. All good CEOs are from Missouri. They all want to show me, don't tell me. So it goes better than show you, let's experience it together. Do you think CEOs that you know would actually observe, listen to their reps talking, having dozens or even a hundred plus conversations in a test drive like that? Would they take... Because that's precious time for them. CEOs time is precious. Would they take 30 minutes or an hour and listen in and go. What? We're saying that? Or whatever the outcome might be.
Mark Roberts (26:13):
I would think most CEOs would be interested in knowing what their market facing people are saying and what with what frequency, but the test drive being free and what you're doing is basically creating the business case every CEO needs. So what does good really look like? For years, they've been told good looks like three good appointments a month. With a test drive they could see they're getting 20, 30 appointments a month. Once they see what good looks like, that's when things are going to change.
Chris Beall (26:47):
Yeah [crosstalk 00:26:48].
Mark Roberts (26:47):
Lot of CEOs I've been told that their team is doing really good. They're doing great. Maybe they're hitting their numbers by growing their current business, as long as the main number gets hit, right? But what would have happened to your bottom line, if you would have had those net new logos or entered that new market and penetrated it and grew market share just because your salespeople were more efficient and more effective.
Chris Beall (27:13):
It's fascinating. Well, I'm looking forward to working with you on this. I'd like to have my top [cold 00:27:18] caller, [Cheryl 00:27:20] Turner, if you're willing to do it. Set meetings for you to meet with CEOs. Cheryl can get CEOs to come to meetings all day long. At first, it'll be a little rough because it's a new value prop, but it'd be fascinating just to see what happens if you were to have meetings with CEOs about what you're doing with them, right? Your business. And see whether any of them might be interested in the experience because I think experience beats talk any day but you got to have talk to talk somebody into having an experience. First time I jumped out of an airplane. It was also the last, but I loved it. Somebody had [inaudible 00:27:58] isn't it? They had to offer the opportunity, but also say, and here's the purpose of it.
Chris Beall (28:05):
This experience is going to liberate you from some of your self-limiting beliefs. And hopefully I said it won't liberate me from life on this planet as I slam into the [inaudible 00:28:15] and it's not so good.
Mark Roberts (28:15):
Correct. Yeah.
Chris Beall (28:17):
So somebody's got to have that conversation. Is that something you'd be willing to do if Cheryl were to set some meetings for you if you do?
Mark Roberts (28:24):
Yeah. But again, in the spirit of worthy intent, it would excite me to reach out to manufacturers and show them what good could look like. It would totally change their perception of sales and then actually would validate their belief that sales could run like a plant.
Chris Beall (28:39):
I think that's the biggest idea I've heard of Market Dominance of Guys. I wrote an article four years ago, five years ago, three parts or four parts or five parts and they ask this question, can sales be industrialized? And my answer was yes and I laid out though. If the math and the whole bit, right? It was not a popular article. It's out there on LinkedIn to this day. You can still go find it, it's on our blog. I thought it was a breakthrough. I thought, man, I've got it right. This is like [inaudible 00:29:11] let's ask the question. Can sales be industrialized? [Aaron Ross 00:29:14] asked this question about predictable revenue and specialization. Now the one thing you didn't think needed to be specialized was dialing in navigating the phone itself at that time way back then, that didn't seem like the thing, right?
Chris Beall (29:28):
So instead it was a specialization around some other functions, including getting the meeting. I actually believe the unit of specialization where the most arbitrage has to be found is right there, dialing and navigating the phone, but not talking to the person, not talking to the target. And the mathematical consequence of all that when you analyze it. So sales can be industrialized. It really can at least down through discovery. So what you're saying is, I like that you're phrasing better, which is, the why [inaudible 00:30:01]. Why can't my sales organization, my sales function run like my shop floor?
Mark Roberts (30:09):
And they can.
Chris Beall (30:11):
That's a question. And they can. We think they can. Okay.
Mark Roberts (30:14):
No. And I've [crosstalk 00:30:14] got you and Cheryl in demonstrating that with those free trials that you're generous to give because we're going to show them what good look like.
Chris Beall (30:22):
Oh. Thank you. Yeah. We call it blowing doors, blow some doors off when it is a shocking experience. And that the main thing about it is, and [Matt McCorkell said 00:30:33] this very, very clearly. He said, "you know what? Here's how I knew it was working on the test drive. And I was personally there and it's test drive in Milwaukee is plant. But some people are not at the plant at the sales office. People who had never used the phone. And I took him aside after we had brought some beer at the end and we're talking about it. I said, "what'd you think?" And he said, "I don't really have to think I'm a very analytical guy, but they were having so much fun that I know it was working." And I think that might be the thing that we'll have folks look out for because that is what happens.
Mark Roberts (31:04):
It's timely brought fun to prospecting.
Chris Beall (31:09):
It is. All right. Well Mark, thanks so much for being on Market Dominance Guys. I see you as saving the nation quite frankly, because manufacturing... Well, I'm serious. I mean, we've had a save the world thing that had to happen with the vaccines and that got done miraculously.
Mark Roberts (31:31):
[inaudible 00:31:31].
Chris Beall (31:32):
There you go. Right? Here, we have in a way, it's not a vaccine. It's more of a food that can strengthen our manufacturing sector. And when you want manufacturing to grow, you also want to compete. You're competing with companies around the world. And so I take this pretty seriously as an opportunity and I hope we can work together and bring market dominance to where the manufacturers right here at home and make a huge difference.
Mark Roberts (32:01):
And the good news is, what we'll close on is elite sellers have one thing in common, which is a utilitarian trait. If I do this, I expect this. When they experience the test drive, they're never going to look back. They're going to know how efficient and effective they could be. And that sets the bar because these are like athletes, right? They're always trying to get better. So I'm excited to work with you.
Chris Beall (32:27):
It's got to be fun. All right. Well, thanks so much for being on the show too. And Corey, dude, you could have been here for this, the pivotal moment in the entire manufacturing sector, the future of our country. I know you're a Patriot and you're here in spirit, my friends. So thanks so much. And everybody, this has been an episode of Market Dominance Guys with Mark Roberts. How to get people get ahold of you? I know Cheryl is going to call them, but say, CEO gets a hold of this and they go, "oh, I got to talk to that mark Robert sky." What did they-
Mark Roberts (32:59):
I'm an old school guy, right? If you want to find me just Google the words, fixed sales problems. I'm typically number one in the world, but I prefer just to give you myself. That's how CEOs reach out to me. Three, three, zero four, one, three, eight, five, five, two. I'm an old school guy. I've got conversations with people.
Chris Beall (33:17):
Well, I love it. All right. Well, everybody reach out to Mark and fix sales problems if that's not something worth doing, I don't know what it is. Thanks so much and see everybody next time on Market Dominance Guys.
Mark Roberts (33:29):
Thanks-
Announcer (33:36):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world through a modern and innovative sales and scripting tool set. We offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com. Never miss an episode, go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
Today on Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall has a discussion about first conversations with Mark Allen Roberts, CEO, and founder of OTB Solutions. Mark and Chris compare notes on how things were in the “old days” of sales, back in the 1980s when they got started in this area of business. Mark recalls that in the old days, you weren’t allowed to go out and sell until you were trained. Nowadays, though, most salespeople aren’t trained. Many don’t even know the purpose of the call they’re making: Their knee-jerk reaction to getting someone on the phone is to immediately start pitching their product. And so, they totally miss the opportunity to use the first 7 seconds of a conversation to establish trust and, thus, begin a relationship that may eventually lead to setting a meeting or making a sale.
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Mark further explains why the pitch-first approach is a mistake. “When you’re reaching out on the phone,” he says, “it’s all about worthy intent. Are you reaching out to help somebody? Or are you just trying to hit your numbers?” Your prospects can tell the difference and will react accordingly. If no trust has been established, they will continue to feel ambushed and will maneuver to end the call quickly. Avoid this disaster by learning all there is to know about first conversations from these two experts in this week’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, “Worthy Intent Will Fill Your Funnel.”
About Our Guest
Mark Allen Roberts, CEO, and founder of OTB Solutions, works with company leaders to improve sales and profits by leveraging a data-driven, no smoke and mirrors approach to driving profitable sales growth through assessing sales teams’ skills, motivations, and beliefs and then providing strategic development to improve their performance.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
Welcome to another episode of Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall and Corey Frank. Today, our guys continue exchanging ideas with Gregory Smith, Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at SPARXiQ. In this third part of their discussion, they talk about the view from a CEO’s desk. Chris, who is himself a CEO, thinks that most chief executive officers’ view of their company is often skewed by the remove at which they look at its operations. As he puts it, “They tend to be either stuck in the mud or full of fantasy.” Greg and Chris then reveal that they are both true believers in C-level staff getting out on the frontline and experiencing the jobs their employees do.
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“If you want to be an effective CEO or even a VP or SVP,” Greg advises, “you’ve got to get out in the field and experience it, feel it, understand it.” He encourages all CEOs to spend the day with one staff member in each division of their business once a year. Chris agrees with this plan. “When you do that,” he says, “you grow in respect for your people who are on the front lines. You see that what they do is brilliant.” Get the details on how to dominate your market by spending time with the talented people you’ve hired in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Stuck in the Mud or Full of Fantasy.”
About Our Guest Gregory Smith is Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at SPARXiQ, a business that delivers analytics, training, and software solutions that help companies accelerate performance and profitability.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
In this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation with Gregory Smith, Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at SPARXiQ. They’re talking today about talent acquisition and development, which Greg says is about 60–80% of most companies’ expenses — and could be one of the significant reasons why some businesses don’t grow. He believes that a company is only as good as their people and the way their people treat customers. With the goal of inspiring his own team to reach for that high customer-service bar, Greg explains his approach in this way: “I’m a coach, I’m a mentor, and I appropriate the resources my team needs to be rock stars.”
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The guys then segue into a conversation about the importance of bringing employees in on the reasoning behind what they are being asked to do. Chris and Corey refer to this explanation as “the why,” and you’ll hear how each of these three experts is a believer in this part of talent development. Here’s Greg’s explanation of how he uses this approach in leading his team: “First, I provide the strategic vision and make sure they understand ‘the why.’ Then, I get the hell out of the way and let them do their job.” Pause for a few moments from your own job to take in all the insights and advice you’ll hear on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Why ‘the Why’ Is So Essential.”
About Our Guest
Gregory Smith is Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at SPARXiQ, a business that delivers analytics, training, and software solutions that help companies accelerate performance and profitability.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
Today, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, interview Gregory Smith, Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at SPARXiQ. Corey introduces Greg as an “M&A whisperer,” which Greg lives up to as he reveals insights gleaned from his work with mergers and acquisitions. How can he tell if a company is going to survive and thrive? Greg says that he begins with two questions: “Does your company’s product or service fill a particular niche? And does your product or service solve a specific problem for customers?” Greg then warns our podcast listeners against being a “one product or service — and done” business. As he explains it, you can occupy a great niche and have a fabulous customer solution, but you need to continue to develop and augment what you’re offering. He illustrates his point with an example from Starbucks’ early days in business and then goes on to tell a cautionary tale of a company that pioneered bacon-infused vodka.
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The guys switch over to talking about customer service and how your company’s treatment of customers defines your business more than any product or service ever could. You won’t want to miss this eye-opener and other examples of what can cause businesses to succeed or fail on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “One and Done Is the Loneliest Number.”
About Our Guest
Gregory Smith is Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at SPARXiQ, a business that delivers analytics, training, and software solutions that help companies accelerate performance and profitability.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:37):
Today our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank interview Gregory Smith, Vice President of Strategic Accounts and Partnerships at Sparks IQ. Corey introduces Greg as an M&A whisper, which Greg lives up to as he reveals insights gleaned from his work with mergers and acquisitions. How can he tell if a company is going to survive and thrive? Greg says that he begins with two questions.
Does your company's product or service fill a particular niche? And does your product or service solve a specific problem for customers? Greg then warns our podcast listeners against being a one product or service and done business. As he explains it, you can occupy a great niche and have a fabulous customer solution, but you need to continue to develop and augment what you're offering.
He illustrates this point with an example from Starbucks early days in business, and then goes on to tell a cautionary tale of a company that pioneered bacon infused vodka. The guys switched over to talking about customer service and how your company's treatment of customers defines your business more than any product or service ever could.
You won't want to miss this eye-opener and other examples of what can cause businesses to succeed or fail on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, one and done is the loneliest number.
Corey Frank (02:19):
Chris, good afternoon.
Chris Beall (02:23):
Corey, is that you?
Corey Frank (02:26):
Once again. We have a special edition today where this is the... Is this the drinking edition of the Market Dominance Guys? I think it is, right? So Chris, what have you got there in your glass?
Chris Beall (02:35):
This is would be Macallan 12. It's nice and simple. I'm just having it with my favorite accoutrement, air.
Corey Frank (02:41):
Air? Probably a nice soft [bree 00:02:46], okay. As for me, I am drinking a Jocko white pomegranate tea. And if you've noticed, we have a special guest in the other panel here of our discussion. We have Greg Smith. Greg, we're honored to have Greg today.
Corey Frank (03:00):
Greg is an M&A whisperer, a true dirt floor operator. And I think many times, Chris, when we talk about the Market Dominance Guys, we are enamored. We are seduced by people who have taken a lot of these practices and dominated a market. And I think Greg clearly as we uncover and unpack Greg's story, that he's done it again and again.
Corey Frank (03:25):
So he has the unlock code for many entrepreneurs and for many businesses that are just existing and not growing and how to kind of bust out. So Greg welcome, and what's in your glass?
Gregory Smith (03:40):
Thanks guys. It's a pleasure to be here. And I don't know about the unlock code, but I guess if you rate the number of mistakes I've made in my 40 year career, they're pretty extensive. So I guess mistakes sometimes can equate into lessons learned. So yes, I am drinking Don Julio 70 on the rocks and the secret there is two lime wedges and a splash of orange juice, just a splash.
Gregory Smith (04:07):
And I think Don Julio 70 is probably some of the best tequila out there. It's just nice and smooth as Blanco and Silver. So it's just nice and smooth.
Corey Frank (04:16):
Okay-
Gregory Smith (04:18):
[inaudible 00:04:18] afternoon.
Corey Frank (04:19):
That's right. Well, speaking of nice and smooth, Chris, I know you have a little story about how you kind of ran into Greg and we have very stringent criteria to be a guest on Market Dominant Guys, right? I mean, it's a multi-page questionnaire. And I think there's a blood palette.
Corey Frank (04:36):
I mean, there's all kinds of things, but ultimately Greg passed all those with flying colors. And what are we going to talk about, Chris, with Greg today in the area of market dominance?
Chris Beall (04:44):
Well, we usually are talking to people that are kind of out of the SAS world or the tech sales world or whatever it happens to be. Greg comes out of a different world. And I think sometimes people are skeptical about market dominance being the play, the only safe play when you kind of are not in the world of fast moving technology.
Chris Beall (05:05):
And I think Greg can bring us a perspective on the importance of market dominance in industries that you would think are, I would almost say beyond commodity. The distribution industry might be the most beyond commodity industry around in a way. They're called middlemen for a reason. And generally what one is trying to do with the middleman is to do what the surgeon does with the appendix, cut them out, right?
Chris Beall (05:32):
And so how do you make market dominance happen when people in by and large think of you as an appendix to be cut out? Why is that important and how do you do it? And I think I disagree with Greg about the unlock code itself, or I think he's being a little coy. The unlock code literally is made out of mistakes. You manufacture the unlock code out of errors.
Chris Beall (05:55):
And so I'm really fascinated to hear about the big mistakes and what the learnings are, and then about the application of those learnings to situations where it wasn't obvious a market could be dominated. But in fact, that's what happened.
Corey Frank (06:12):
Exactly. Greg, for you to say you've had many mistakes amongst your four plus different companies that you've taken to maturity and still be there drinking Don Julio versus some rail. It's not real tequila, right? So obviously you fail your way up. You fell upward, you tripped upward. So to Chris's point, let's talk about some of those.
Gregory Smith (06:34):
The reason I'm still here is because I'm drinking Don Julio.
Corey Frank (06:39):
Duly noted.
Gregory Smith (06:41):
I look pretty good for 85, don't I?
Corey Frank (06:44):
That's right.
Chris Beall (06:44):
Damn frisky, as we say in these parts. Damn frisky.
Corey Frank (06:49):
So I'm a manufacturer, I'm a distributor today, Greg and I've been in the business for 15 years, but really I've been in the business one year 15 times. I just can't break out. You're the doctor coming in in the lab coat, what are you diagnosing me for? What are the key levers that from your purview now that you've had these challenges and you've figured it out, what likely am I doing wrong?
Gregory Smith (07:18):
Yeah. So, that's some great questions there. So as I look at what it takes to create market dominance for most industries, right? Most companies, most industries, there's probably about seven or eight or maybe nine, I would say, key attributes to achieving that. And I think it kind of starts with what is your solution, right? And what is your niche?
Gregory Smith (07:47):
And if you can't provide a unique niche in the marketplace or solve a problem or become a solution provider, it becomes really hard to scale your business if you're just amongst the masses. And I have to say, most of my career has been distribution, specifically really in electrical distribution. You can't get much more commoditized than that.
Gregory Smith (08:14):
Yes, there are services that have expanded within that industry over the years to allow for some elasticity, if you will, in the profits. But by and large, you're selling what everybody else sells. So it becomes very difficult to become a differentiator, and services is certainly one of the ways to do that.
Gregory Smith (08:35):
So, I think one of the first things as I mentioned is kind of what is your niche in the marketplace, right? What problem are you solving for a customer? If you can answer one or both of those, you're way more apt to succeed. And frankly, you're way more apt to grab some scalability of your business.
Gregory Smith (08:55):
I talked to a lot of folks, a lot of companies over the years, and I do a bit of consulting on the side and one of the first things I ask them is what is your USP? Or what is it that you're... What problem are you solving or what niche in the marketplace are you looking to kind of hear to? And usually what I get is a lot of blank stares, right?
Gregory Smith (09:20):
Or I get a lot of wordsmithing, but nothing that's really tangible that clients and customers can kind of latch on to. So that's important, right? You have to identify that. And it reminds me of that book, Wide Ocean, right? So if you don't have a niche, you're swimming in wide ocean, and the small guys are nipping at you because they figured out the niche.
Gregory Smith (09:46):
The big guys are nipping at you because they've got scale and volume. Manufacturers are not giving you the full attention that you should have because you don't have the scalability or the volume. You're in that blue ocean. You just churn in and you can, you can make a living. I've seen companies do that.
Gregory Smith (10:03):
I see a nice little 10, 15, 20, $30 million companies that have been around for 80 years that haven't really grown and they fill an itch and they're able to survive. And it's what I would call a generational business or kind of family business, right? It generates enough profits for the family and that's all they're looking to do. And that's okay.
Gregory Smith (10:26):
But if companies are looking to grow, they have to kind of go beyond that. And so it also reminds me of a story. I don't know if you guys remember, I actually bought it once and thought it was disgusting. But there's entire company, it was a vodka company probably maybe 10 years ago, eight, nine years ago, created an entire business model around handcrafted bacon infused vodka. Do you guys remember that?
Chris Beall (10:55):
That sounds good though. I'm going to go out for some right now. I'll be back.
Gregory Smith (11:01):
I don't think they're still around. Yeah, they might be, but... And trust me, I love bacon. I love everything bacon. Bacon infused vodka didn't taste all that good. But anyway, they built an entire model out. So the concept was good, right? They wanted to swim in a space where no one was.
Gregory Smith (11:21):
Now what they ended up doing, which I think is unique, is they started the flavor vodka launch if you will, right? This whole phenomenon. Now, if you go to the liquor store, you can have every flavor of vodka you want. Where they dropped the ball was concept was good, the niche was good. However, they didn't expand on it. They did bacon vodka. It kind of failed.
Gregory Smith (11:51):
And instead of taking it and expanding on it, they just went away. So again, it's realizing what does that niche solve a problem? And then if you can do that, expand on it. But if it doesn't quite work, tweak it and keep going. And as I think about another one, it's you got to make sure that you continue to develop your product or your service.
Gregory Smith (12:15):
You can't just be a one and done. You can't have, and I've seen this before and I'm sure you guys have seen this, where you've got a company that beginning up, they hit a million dollars. They're high fiving, that's great. They hit that first milestone. Then they hit five and then they hit 10. They continue to high five. But as you look at that trajectory, they start to level off or they have leveled off for five to 10 years, right?
Gregory Smith (12:42):
So they can't get beyond that. And there's different evolutions within companies that we could certainly talk about, and what you need to do at each level in terms of shoring up the foundation with people and services and products and all that stuff. But you shore up that foundation that allows you then to grow up to the next level, you shore up that foundation, go to the next level, so on and so forth.
Gregory Smith (13:02):
So, just because you have a good idea or one service in the beginning doesn't mean that it possesses that that elasticity, if you will, or scalability to continue to survive, [inaudible 00:13:15] but then continue to grow to get to some sort of market dominance, right? So this is especially true in the wholesale distribution business, because it is such a competitive business to be in.
Gregory Smith (13:27):
So I'm trying to think of an example for this one would be, well, as you think about Starbucks, right? In terms of how they evolved, Starbucks started out selling coffee, pretty much it. [No loss 00:13:40] for flavors and this and that and cappuccinos and all that stuff, but they quickly capped out. If you look at their public statements, they quickly capped out on revenue.
Gregory Smith (13:54):
I mean, they went like this admittedly, right? And then they capped out and shareholders, and I don't care if the shareholder is you guys, me, Joe around the block or stockholders, right? Either case, the shareholders are like, "Yeah, that doesn't work for us." You're trading at a 20x multiple than originally you were doing.
Gregory Smith (14:58):
Now coming from a distribution business and a 5% UBIT, that's pretty nice. So Starbucks also, you can look at their statements. They also obviously made a lot of money on coffee, but did two things that allowed them to continue to grow as well as increased profitability.
Gregory Smith (15:17):
So then I think the third one, which is really interesting that could be good or bad by the way, is what are the external forces that you don't have control over, but that you can adapt to or change with, right? So, external forces, I think is a big one and there's a variety of them. There's social, culture, economics, demographics, science, technology, you guys mentioned technology, right?
Gregory Smith (15:49):
Legal, political, God forbid, right? All these things. So all of these affect your business and market trends and how people buy. Look at the revolution of the e-commerce in all industries to say nothing about the industrial B2B industry, right? So that was struggling to get e-commerce adoption by its customers.
Gregory Smith (16:16):
And over the previous five years on average is about one to 2% of top line sales. That is a 20x, and that took five years. And in one year, it's a 20x increase, right? So this pandemic changed, it was an external force, and changed the marketplace for business. So I've said this in a couple of postings, I think industrial B2B business is in the midst of a black swan profit event.
Gregory Smith (16:49):
And here's what I mean by that. So you look at the convergence today, right? Of we're nearing the end of the pandemic, again, "hopefully", right? If there's not a variant that comes out that doesn't work with the vaccine or is vaccine resistant, then obviously that's a problem. There's some caveats here, but let's assume that we're nearing the end of this.
Gregory Smith (17:15):
By June, I don't know, 200 million out of 330 million people in the US, 200 million will be vaccinated. There's probably another 75 or 80 million that have already had it and didn't even know it, right? So we're going to get to that. Got a herd immunity phase and businesses are already starting to pick up, right? So we're nearing the end of the pandemic.
Gregory Smith (17:39):
The economy is picking up. Look at the numbers yesterday on unemployment claims, right? There are pre-pandemic levels and commodity prices are on the increase. Now, again, that could be considered good and bad, it depends on where it goes and how much longer it goes. But currently today, if you look within distribution, most distributors are seeing price increases weekly.
Gregory Smith (18:06):
And in some cases, manufacturers, now here we are April, mid April, manufacturers have given distributors, if not one price increase by now, which is pretty standard. Now they're on their second, and then some manufacturers on their third, combined with supply chain issues where you can't get products, right? So all of these things equate to a black swan profit event for distributors if they manage it correctly.
Gregory Smith (18:40):
That's the key, if they manage it correctly. And so that's just one example, I think of external force that can help a business. And obviously, there's external forces that hinder your business. If you're all bricks and mortar and you're not doing any e-commerce site and you're selling, I don't know, paperclips. Yeah, you're not going to be around much longer, right?
Corey Frank (19:02):
Greg, you go back to your example about the bacon infused vodka, right? And Chris, you and I have spoken a lot about this with Market Dominance, is that the number one... And it's interesting to hear your examples in the manufacturing distribution industry, Greg, because again, what Chris and I in our experience in what we've seen from market dominance on the SAS side, certainly expand to others as we've talked about.
Corey Frank (19:28):
But the number one mistake that we say in Market Dominance is that people don't go and get the meetings or the feedback before they build a product, right? Chris, you talked a lot about this as the... It's literally the proverbial cart before the horse problem that is disastrous because the cart ultimately leads the horse off of a cliff, right?
Corey Frank (19:52):
And then we tie into the famous chasm and we've done a number of episodes, Chris, on the chasm, Geoffrey Moore's chasm, because then you go down to that chasm and there is no revenue down there. And clearly there's no... There's loads of broken bacon infused vodka bottles, that's about it, that's down there, but here's no revenue.
Corey Frank (20:14):
So, Chris, what do you say just listening to Greg here is that those parallel is about they didn't test the market that built the product and didn't get any feedback loops? They thought it was a good idea in their own minds, but that was about where it stopped.
Chris Beall (20:29):
Well, I mean, the most common problem in solving problems is finding out whether there's a problem and then finding out whether you can solve it. And then finding out whether you can restrict those that you decide to solve it for in a way that allows them to identify with each other and say, oh, if it worked for Corey, it'll work for me.
Chris Beall (20:49):
That's the trifecta business. People talk about product market fit like it comes magically out of a bacon infused vodka bottle, right? Oh, well, now that we have product market fit, it's like, what in the world does that even mean? It's not some mystery. You go talk to folks and you say, thinking about doing this and you listen carefully to what they have to say and make sure that you don't tweak the message on everyone.
Chris Beall (21:17):
It's called thrash. Fish thrash nicely on the decks of boats after they've been brought up. You don't want to be that fish. It's not a path to dominance. You have to actually take your product as words to the market and then to a hypothetical market. And then let that experience tell you first is this hypothetical market even a market? That is what they talk to each other.
Chris Beall (21:41):
Think about that question that's never asked, which is, hey, I just talked to to Mary and if Mary were to embrace what we're doing, would that actually make it easier for you to take a look at it? It's a good question to ask. That's the ultimate question of referenceability. That is you don't want to solve a problem that if you solved it you'd realize you'd done nothing of value.
Chris Beall (22:03):
So why go into what you think is a market, which is defined as an inter referenceable set of folks that is if one buys it makes it instantly cheaper and lower risk for everybody else to buy instantly because of that first reference, right? That's what it means to cross the chasm. You get that reference. And then use that one to get another and another and another, but your market has to be in a referencing, but that's a hypothesis.
Chris Beall (22:29):
So until you get your hypothesis validated and the cheapest way to validate it is through talk. That's why bars are actually pretty good. That's why if you want to do this really well, find truth serum of some sort. Now, we talk about this all the time that the lie serum, the anti truth serum is the cold call. You will not tell me the truth in the cold call except about one thing.
Chris Beall (22:52):
And you won't even tell me the truth about it, except in your actions. Your strong desire to get off the call with your self image intact. When I cold call you, I know what the truth is. So why don't we just get that one done with and get to a meeting? Because the first truth serum is the voluntary nature of coming to a meeting with somebody.
Chris Beall (23:12):
I had a meeting today with the CFO of a company in the plywood industry. Now you might be asking, what the heck is Chris Beall doing meeting with the CFO of a big company in the plywood industry? And the answer is I wanted to find out whether a solution, which is our flight school packaged and thought of in a certain way, would be interesting to a CFO of a big company.
Chris Beall (23:40):
Because I had advice from somebody that said you should go get that information as a potential market, right? The entry point into the market. So I talked to said CFO. It was an eight minute conversation, eight minutes and 49 seconds. In fact, super conversation. And he said the following, "We have more demand than we can satisfy and probably will for the next 18 months.
Chris Beall (24:04):
So while I see that your product might have been interesting to me at one time and might be interesting in the future, we're not in that situation." Which lets me immediately do a little product market fit work, which is to say, ah, I'm going to take that information and make a list of a subset of the companies I want to talk to whose experts say are in trouble with demand because of the pandemic, great.
Chris Beall (24:32):
So I didn't find out it's not good to talk to CFOs. And by the way, that conversation costs me literally eight minutes and 49 seconds. That was the total cost. That was it. No dollars, no nothing. My time's worth nothing as everybody in the earth knows. CEO's time is the most fungible commodity in the world, and the beauty is that the numerator is zero.
Chris Beall (24:52):
You multiply it out and you get the same number all the time. CEOs like to say they're worth a lot, but their time actually at the margin has always cost zero. It's probably worth zero. So it's a good example right there. Plywood, right? Would you have guessed? You might have that a plywood company right now would be facing a year to two of capacity shortage.
Chris Beall (25:14):
I didn't know that. I learned it. So that brings me to a fourth point, which is go-to-market is more about learning than it is about selling, but the only way we can learn is to sell. And this is the conundrum that faces everybody in go-to-market is well, I have to have something to sell. You've got a problem.
Chris Beall (25:34):
You need to learn, and the only way to learn is to sell. Because until you're in that meeting, that scheduled meeting where they came to you... Because that CFO told me the truth, right? On a cold call, here's what he told Cheryl. He told Cheryl Turner this. Because she said, "I'll send you a meeting invite and we'll reschedule."
Chris Beall (25:55):
He came to the meeting. He said, "I have no idea what this meeting's about." You know what I said, Corey? Fantastic, right? Because we're going to learn together. So I think people tend to skip the learning step because most of the risk of failure hides inside of learning.
Chris Beall (26:13):
And we're not confident in our ability to learn deliberately, and so we skip that step and we would rather plunge into the chasm and be licking up the dry vodka hoping that the bacon flavor is bacon. Dealing with the glass cuts on our tongues and eventually becoming bones like those behind Greg there.
Chris Beall (26:33):
And we do that happily because learning as a deliberate process is so frightening that most entrepreneurs will turn down the opportunity to learn in favor of their urge to act.
Gregory Smith (26:48):
By the way, if I could just add two things to that. So, the first one is that you're absolutely correct, right? This communication to really understand the market that you want to create a product for a solution for, right? The challenge is some of that work actually does get done.
Gregory Smith (27:09):
However, it gets done by the people who are trying to create the niche or identify the niche or solve the problem. We all know we have biases on our belief systems, right? So my philosophy has always been hire other people to do that investigative work, right? That sales work that you call it, to ask the questions, to help identify and/or support your belief.
Gregory Smith (27:37):
But hire others to do it that don't have a stake in the game. And by doing that, you get a lot more information. Because again, talking with companies, talking with startups and helping startups get from point A to point B, to your point, you guys, that's one of the first questions I ask is, have you done some market studies research? Show me what you've done, blah, blah, blah.
Gregory Smith (28:00):
And 50% of them say yes, and here's the data. And we made these calls, we did this and we did that. And half of them were leading questions, right? And none of them are really done, I think, correctly, because now they're in this box where they've spent $1 million, they generated 20,000 revenue. And they're wondering why this thing is stalling out, right?
Gregory Smith (28:22):
And so they didn't really get an understanding of the marketplace and what their product or service was going to solve or the niche that they were going to be in that there really wasn't a need for. So completely agree with you. Then I would take it to the next level, which is communicating with your customer on an ongoing basis, right?
Gregory Smith (28:45):
Creating those conversations with your customers, not just in the beginning, but throughout really your company life cycle. So I used to do these things called customer councils and they were kind of unique, and you had to be a member of the customer council in order to come. We did them once a year.
Gregory Smith (29:06):
It was full blown dinner, steaks, nice restaurant, all they got, hats, t-shirts, jackets. They got some really nice swag stuff for attending. And the deal was that I was there as a leader, but their immediate, their sales team couldn't be there. Their regionals couldn't be there. Branch managers couldn't be there.
Gregory Smith (29:29):
Nobody that they deal with on a day-to-day basis couldn't be there, because I wanted that kind of open and honesty. And so the deal was there was a eight page questionnaire, which took them 10 minutes to fill out. We had a 45 minute conversation, open conversations with everybody in the room about what's working, what isn't working. If you were the CEO of this company, what would be the first thing you would do?
Gregory Smith (29:59):
How can we get better? What problems you need us to solve? And we got so much valuable information out of those customer councils. But I just use that as one example. There's a lot of different ways you can do that, but you got to constantly check the pulse of the customer and get that honest feedback to make sure that you continue. It may have worked in the beginning.
Gregory Smith (30:26):
Five years later, external forces change, customers change, customers needs change. All of those things change, so you've got to keep doing those gut checks to be able to do that. And there's a guy that I really like that I follow a fair amount. And this guy, Simon Sinek, do you guys know Simon?
Corey Frank (30:46):
Yap.
Chris Beall (30:46):
Oh, yeah.
Gregory Smith (30:47):
Good guy, right? One of the first things I fell in love with is getting to why, right? What is your USP? Why? Whatever it happens to be, but I found that extremely valuable. And I think it's true. I think as companies are able to identify the why and then get employees to understand the why and buy into it, and then equally as important, getting the customer to understand the why, right?
Gregory Smith (31:16):
Why did the customer buy from you? Customers have options to buy the same product from 100 different people. Actually, no, thousands of different people, right? Why did they buy from you? And that's what you really have to understand. If you can understand that, and if you can get customers to buy into that, then you start talking about exponential growth opportunity because it just starts... It's compounding, right? And it just starts building.
Corey Frank (31:45):
That product market fit, Greg and Chris that you guys are talking about, right? That's why, right? Get to the cynics. Why does somebody want my product? I mean, the number one reason that startup companies fail or they run out of money rather is they end up building a product that they think the market wants and the market doesn't want, right?
Corey Frank (32:06):
And again, we call this product market fit and everybody talks about it endlessly, as Chris was saying, and they put the cart before the horse. But what do you guys say to that from a messaging perspective, right? It seems like the message is the product and the why about what problem does this solve is the product.
Corey Frank (32:29):
And getting to that discovery process, that flywheel of feedback seems to be the key in to your market. So you can kind of have a relatively fail safe way, but it's a process, right? Is that what you're finding with a lot of your companies that maybe they're stumbling into this and they don't know that this is a concerted process, this flywheel attempt? Or they're kind of Forrest Gumping themselves into product market fit, so to speak.
Gregory Smith (33:00):
Kind of both, right? But I don't think it's ever about products. I really don't. Unless you're doing something specific like the bacon vodka, right? Unless you're doing something really specific to the marketplace, it's never... Think about Apple, right? People pay 10 times more for an Apple phone than they do any other phone. Why, right?
Gregory Smith (33:22):
Its features and benefits are the same when you buy a Google phone, an Apple phone, or I don't know. I don't know who's out there because I have an Apple. But people pay a lot of money because of the Apple products. And so why, right? Well, Because it's cool. It's this, it's that. Young people did it, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Gregory Smith (33:39):
All that stuff that generates that demand, but people didn't buy it because it was the best phone in the marketplace. They bought it because of Apple. And so what you sell is never your product. It's always you and your services and your people and the solution and the niche and all those things. Products are secondary.
Gregory Smith (34:07):
And I think if companies think about that differently, then your go-to-market strategy is different, right? Your talent acquisition is different. Think about all the folks that have been out of work in the last year, all your bartenders and waiters and waitresses. And I feel bad for those folks who are restaurant owners, all that stuff. Think about how those people work every day to solve customer problems.
Gregory Smith (34:38):
If I was a customer service company hiring people in customer service, I would have made the biggest bang and the biggest push to go out and find the best waiters and waitresses and bartenders I could find. Because they're the people that get it. They understand it. They live it every single day, right? So your talent acquisition is different.
Gregory Smith (35:02):
All these things are different than trying to sell features and benefits. Features and benefits selling really has never worked, and certainly doesn't work today, in my opinion. I don't know, Chris, do you feel differently?
Chris Beall (35:13):
I agree 100%. I've got a good example on that customer service solving problems thing. So we were out, my fiance, Helen and I were out at what's called The Grill here in Quail Creek two nights ago. And it was a pretty lazy move. It was end of a long day. I didn't want to cook. I normally cook.
Chris Beall (35:35):
She didn't want to cook. And so we went out and we sat down in the wind and we ordered our food, and the waitress seemed really good. She was very attentive. She was quick. She didn't interrupt the conversation. My least favorite thing for a wait staff to do is to come over and start talking in the middle of a conversation, which with me is all the time. So, it was wonderful.
Chris Beall (36:00):
Then suddenly it went weird and we're looking at each other going, where's the silverware? We have nothing to eat with. We have food, nothing to eat with. Where's my margarita? It hasn't showed up. I don't think it takes them 10 minutes to make a margarita and bring it over. I know I asked for the good tequila, but that's just like you open the bottle and you do the thing.
Chris Beall (36:20):
And so, was that a bad waitress or a good waitress? This is where I think talent management really is interesting. Getting to the underlying truth about somebody in service is challenging and gold. So I determined that that waitress who disappeared and left us high and dry for 10 minutes was fantastic.
Chris Beall (36:41):
And here's how. When she came back and she had put somebody else in charge and that person kind of dropped the ball. When she came back, she said, "I'm so sorry. There was a snake right over there. And I caught it and I decided to take it out in the desert and let it go, and it took me a little while to get over there and back."
Chris Beall (37:03):
Now, here's where she kind of screwed up as a customer service person. She said with emotion, "You want to see it?" And she reached into her apron pocket. Not good. Don't ever say, do you want to see a snake and reach into your pocket, especially not with my fiance at the table, because she is not exactly pro-snake, I would say.
Chris Beall (37:21):
So I said, "Yeah, show it to me." And I knew it was a video. So she showed me the video of the little snake, little rat snake, crawling all over her hands. But do I want that person on my team? Is the point to Greg's point. And the answer is yes, because that's somebody who takes the situation and situational awareness and realizes, I may leave this couple here for a bit, but that snake crawling around them in the feet of the table at 10 over here, that's a disaster for our business.
Chris Beall (37:50):
And she made the decision and took an action that had no immediate pat on the back from anybody and did it for the true good of the situation. And these people are everywhere if you go find them. And I agree, customer service is the most amazing of the commodities. I'm wearing my favorite shirt, right? You've seen this before, Corey.
Chris Beall (38:15):
This is from the AA-ISP executive retreat. And I wear the shirt because, rather proudly and I'm not proud of that many things, our company has won the American Association of Inside Sales Professionals Service Provider of the Year for seven years in a row. And we never intend to lose it, and it's the most important thing about our company.
Chris Beall (38:36):
And when we hire somebody, that's what we're looking for. But the best part is, I get four or five times a week, some CEO or VP of sales have called me up and say, I just have got to tell you, your people are different. Your people are different. They're not only experts, but I feel like they're more on our team than we are on our team.
Chris Beall (39:00):
They're more insistent on our success than we knew we should be. And that's where I think you get the big differentiator. It [isn't 00:39:10] product. And by the way, we have a very unique product. I mean, very unique as an oxymoron or an idiot redundancy or some stupid grammatical thing like that. But I'll repeat it anyway, we have a very unique product.
Chris Beall (39:21):
One of a kind, the only one in the world. But that's not what's interesting. What's interesting is that our people by and large will be on your team more than your own team's on your team.
In today’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation about the unifying convergence of B2B and B2C sales tactics with Jeff Lerner, CEO and founder of Entre Institute. The product Jeff’s company offers its customers is empowerment for people wanting to have a better, more successful life. As he explains it, “Everyone wants an awesome life. There's nothing special about wanting one, but defining your awesome life and executing on a strategic plan to create it, regardless of personal circumstances, is something most don't ever do. You have to be committed to excellence.”
In talking about why excellence isn’t pursued by most people, Chris explains, “Excellence is a form of exile from the community they grew up in — in which people mostly complained about how bad things are in their lives.” Jeff simplifies the process of switching from complaining to pursuing an “awesome” life with his offer of Entre’s blueprint, which lays out three areas of concentration — personal, professional, and physical — which he has named the "3 Ps.” Listen to Chris, Corey, and Jeff discuss the 3Ps, plus the particulars of how Jeff dominates his market using social media videos, and how that B2C approach correlates with the Market Dominance Guys’ B2B approach of “conversations first” on today’s episode, “Do You Want an Awesome Life?”
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About Our Guest
Jeff Lerner is CEO and founder of Entre Institute, which provides business training, inspiration, and personal support through videos, messaging, online workshops, and one-on-one interaction for entrepreneurs who want to create online businesses and awesome lives.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
In today's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation about the unifying convergence of B2B and B2C sales tactics with Jeff Lerner, CEO and founder of ENTRE Institute. The product Jeff's company offers its customers is empowerment for people wanting to have a better, more successful life. As he explains it, everyone wants an awesome life. There's nothing special about wanting one, but defining your awesome life and executing on a strategic plan to create it, regardless of personal circumstances, is something most don't ever do. You have to be committed to excellence.
In talking about why excellence isn't pursued by most people, Chris explains excellence is a form of exile from the community they grew up in, in which people mostly complained about how bad things are in their lives. Jeff simplifies the process of switching from complaining to pursuing an awesome life with his offer of ENTRE's Blueprint, which lays out three areas of concentration; personal, professional, and physical, which he has named the 3 P's. Listen to Chris, Corey and Jeff discussed the 3 P's, plus the particulars of how Jeff dominates his market using social media videos and how that B2C approach correlates with the Market Dominance Guys' B2B approach of conversations first. On today's episode, do you want an awesome life?
Chris Beall (02:08):
Who was it... You probably are a little bit more educated than I am in the field, but I think it was... was it Jim Rohn who said the definition of success is a few simple disciplines repeated every day, and the definition of failure is a few simple errors in judgment repeated every day? What I hear you saying is that [inaudible 00:02:28] brought half a beer, I like beer, or about to have a water. If I'm looking at number one, the physical, excellent. If I just follow that guiding light, right?
Corey Frank (02:40):
Right.
Chris Beall (02:41):
That's simple enough for... I bet you tell your children this, I bet you talk to high schoolers about a simple roadmap compass for excellence.
Corey Frank (02:41):
Totally.
Jeff Lerner (02:49):
And if you've got a message as big and broad as mine, you have to find language that says, "Broadly accessible." I can explain 3 P's of excellence to a five-year-old and a 95-year-old and get the same nod.
Corey Frank (03:03):
What would you say, Chris, are those equivalent 3 P's of excellence in our world from a B2B pitch? If I'm a business starting off, and I recently got some funding and trying to decide if I should hire a sales team, but I got to get to product market fit, what are those may be four, maybe five, maybe six, maybe one, but what are those equivalent three tablets coming down the mountain, if you will, in the B2B world that are equitable to what Jeff said in the B2C world?
Chris Beall (03:34):
Well, I think let's try to map them straight up and see what happens. That's always fun, right?
Corey Frank (03:34):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (03:38):
The mathematician in may says, "Let's try one-to-one and onto." So what's the equivalent of the physical? In the B2B world, the physical is actually what we offer. It's our product, it's the offering. And we're either working on the offering to make it better or not, but that's the equivalent of the physical. And when we look at the personal, in the B2B world... This is really hard. It's true in every business. But it's our reason for doing this that actually works for somebody else's... solves somebody else's problem. Why does it make me want to do this thing and attract other people to join me to do it and to offer them a beer instead of a water, if that's what it takes? What is it that's in there?
This is Simon Sinek's why. It's the why that attaches you to the good for other people that's why you're doing it. Because otherwise in B2B, B2B is a little cold. And as a cold experience, we got to warm it up, or we can't stay engaged with it personally. So the personal warmth comes from our dedication to mission. And that is what attracts other people to join us and do anything with us at all. And we can't do very much alone.
And then the professional is... what's interesting about the professional in B2B is almost all of it is, am I having a conversation with somebody from whom I will either learn something that is likely to help me help somebody else more than I'm helping them today, or I'm going to help them learn something that's going to let them either move on and do whatever they're going to do better, or even avail themselves of our services and product and to become a customer? And if we do those three things, I'm just mapping the one-to-one and onto, but I think they're close enough. And I just made that up.
Corey Frank (05:36):
I think that correlates pretty well. And then it does beg the question, if we're going to map those too. Jeff, from your experience, when you look at businesses that are B2B, with your B2C mindset about what you're talking about, about introducing some skepticism and what we're talking about with the culture code and building trust, and it's safe and it's vulnerable, it's a team. When you look at B2B websites, when you get a B2B pitch, another vendor's going to pitch ENTRE, a CRM system, a phone system. What do you think is missing from that initial pitch, that in your world, you just shake your head a little bit and say, "You poor SOB, you're missing something fundamental that exists in our B2C world and our best practitioners of this craft get it, but you don't?"
Jeff Lerner (06:29):
To me, it's a culturalist... it's a vacuum of mission/culture. So much business marketing is feature-driven and benefit-driven. And it's a cliche. And every business owner, every CEO has read a book. They've read Good to Great, they've read Tribal Leadership, they've read Start With Why. And so they would say, "No, no. We're about culture, and we're about values, and we have Simon Sinek's calls of Just Cause. And everybody at our paper mill is really aligned with the just cause of..." And it's like, "No, everybody at the paper mill is not aligned with the just cause, they're just trying not to get toxic chemicals on their clothes so they can go home and hug their kids without making them sick. That's all they care about along with the paycheck.
But it's [inaudible 00:07:15] For me, because I live and die off a culture, I am a cultural offering to a world, like you said, my ultimate product is hope, I would say it's empowerment more than hope. I don't really love hope, because hope is very externally focused. It's an inwardly-focused hope, which I think is empowerment. We're going to empower you with skills, we're going to empower you with the community, we're going to empower you with tools, we're going to empower you with a different understanding of possibility out there. Fundamentally, you think, "Well, who am I competing with?" And I'm some new upstart, less than three years in the market that I... By the way, my entire budget to launch this company, all those video boosts was about 25 grand. So I built a hundred million dollar business with $25,000 startup capital and a whole bunch of chutzpah.
But you think about it, I'm out there... Who am I really competing with? I'm competing from a messaging and a market perspective. I consider myself to be creating a blue ocean, but in terms of how the market would compare me, it'd be like Tony Robbins, it'd be Grant Cardone, it'd be Russell Brunson, it'd be Tai Lopez. It might be, like you mentioned, [inaudible 00:08:19] I'd be flattered for the reference. So when that conversation against those luminaries, it's not going to be about what I say, or even functionally what I offer. It's going to be about how my world's feels.
That's the only way I win; is if my worlds feels... It's like buying a house, everybody has to want to move into my house. You don't move into a house because it's got, "Oh, the chimney's a little bit taller or the kitchen appliances are a little bit updated," the three of us would move in because our wives would be like, "I just like the way that feels." And we, "Okay, honey. That's the one."
Corey Frank (08:56):
So in a B2B world-
Jeff Lerner (08:59):
And B2B [crosstalk 00:09:00] sucks at creating feelings. They just suck.
Corey Frank (09:02):
There you go. Chris, what would you say from your experience in the B2B world when you look at B2B sites. Here we are, consumers, we slide down our dinosaur at 5:01 And also we enter the world of B2C, what do you experience? What do you wish that some B2C organizations would adopt a little bit more that has been successful in the B2B go to market sales strategy, talking to strangers, et cetera?
Chris Beall (09:32):
I don't know. I'm clueless about one-to-many conversations. I'm really am. I'm the worst. The B2B world is not particularly adept at feelings, I would say, where it is. It's so unadept, it's ridiculous. That's our business, is making feelings happen through the medium, through a change of medium, which is the human voice. And the human voice engenders feelings in all cases and there's no avoiding it. And it has a bit rate to pull it off. 20,000 bits a second, you got a shot, whereas you can't get anywhere close to that in a website or an email or whatever it happens to be. What's funny though, because I've listened on Clubhouse to folks starting B2C businesses. And I tell you what, I wish they would do is just... I don't know how to put it exactly. Get a tiny bit more serious about matching up what you're trying to do with a little bit of how it's going to work.
It's just funny. It's like, I'm so full of my desire to be like something else that I saw succeeding. Somebody has a certain kind of business, I've been told that I can go do that. It's like, "Okay, but do you know how business actually works? Do you know..." It's really simple. The business equation is really simple. Jeff said it earlier, maybe it was before the show. He wanted to make a difference and to make a difference yet to make a profit, because if you don't make a profit you're not sustainable. That's the business equation. You have to drive gross profit in order to be able to cover your overhead and have at least a $0 and maybe more than that leftover so that you can apply those to growth and you need some sort of a cash buffer, some asset-base so when it doesn't work out perfectly with regard to timing, you're not dead, because being dead means you can't go after your mission either.
That awareness of just the basic biology of business, when I listen to people talking about starting B2C business, I think somebody should take five minutes and just demystify this simple equation. And it's not about fancy models and all that. It's, can it possibly work? Something investors think about that people who pitch to investors don't think about, is this, the investor is asking you, if it works, will it be worthwhile? That's their question. They're not asking if it'll work or not. Your question as the entrepreneur should be, "Under the range of circumstances I can control, will it work? Does the equation actually work?"
And I think more people should ask themselves that before they just go, "And everybody with a dog is kind of in." And the thing that really bothers me and it bothers the Shark Tank guys more than probably anything, I think Mark Cuban really goes crazy when he hears it, is, "If I get 0.1% of this monster TAM, then blah, blah, blah." It's like, "Sorry, but you actually have to identify the true TAM and go dominate it. Jeff said, "His people. They speak your language and know the 3 P's. Do you really care what people who are not your people, who are outside of that, or I don't know, grants people or whatever, what they know about the 3Ps?
Jeff Lerner (12:52):
No. I-
Chris Beall (12:53):
Irrelevant.
Jeff Lerner (12:54):
No, I just care about wowing the people in my world so they'll tell their friends, honestly.
Chris Beall (12:59):
There you go. It's that clarity that when you're clear you know that there's limitations and the limitations or boundaries are good, not bad, because it gives you something to go make a difference in. Making a difference for everybody, sounds great, can't be done. Making a difference for some people, whether it's because they opt in or they have some characteristics or whatever, you got a shot. If that's one person, we call that marriage. If it's a handful, we call it friendship. If it's in a thousand companies, we call it business and pure changing 130,000, 150,000, 200,000 lives at a time, what do we call it, Jeff?
Jeff Lerner (13:41):
Call it a movement.
Chris Beall (13:43):
Yeah. What do you think about that? Jeff, am I barking up a completely branchless tree here?
Jeff Lerner (13:49):
No. No. You guys are just so... You're intuitive landing at the same place I'm at after a few years of doing this. A few things. First of all, I just want to cover a couple things you said. First of all, the 3 P's, I think they really do map. This is a new awareness. Physical is about helping somebody do a thing... If I were going to try to map with the benefit of what you already said, I would say physical is about helping somebody to do their job easier. I would say personal is about helping somebody do their job warmer, is maybe a better way to say it, more human. It's about humanizing their job. So physical would be simplifying their job, personal would be humanizing their job, and then professional would be making their job either more profitable or more scalable, the actual business results. Anyway, that's [crosstalk 00:14:41]
Chris Beall (14:41):
Jeff, we could write a book.
Jeff Lerner (14:43):
It is, yeah. [crosstalk 00:14:44]
Chris Beall (14:44):
The True Convergence.
Jeff Lerner (14:45):
The Unified Theory of B2C and B2C. But anyways, and then the next thing, when you guys were talking about going from one-to-many... Well, actually, before I say that, Corey, when you asked the question, what is it you think that a lot of people in the B2C world could learn from B2B? The first word that came to mind was just, for me, when you asked the question was just be a professional. It's okay to be personable, but not as a euphemism for being an amateur. Be a professional, learn to speak... And Chris, that's what you were saying, is if you want to do business, you have to operate from sound business principles, and you have to speak a language that's fundamentally grounded in and appealing to business, right?
Corey Frank (15:35):
Yes.
Jeff Lerner (15:36):
And there's just so much amateurishness. And look, I ran a digital B2B agency for six years. I helped 11,000 small and medium-sized businesses with their marketing. And usually when you're trying to help a business with their marketing, you realize very quickly you've brought a knife to a gunfight and you actually need to help them with their business. And so I did that 11,000 times in six years. I'm a pretty competent business conversationalist. And there's no fabricating that. People try to masquerade. They're like, "I got out of college last week. And I used to have a lemonade stand, let me tell you why you should hire me to consult your call floor or something." And it's like...
Anyway, and then the thing about one-to-one, one-to-many and how you scale outward, I really felt like you hone in on something there. I think that's one of the reasons the 3 P's concept has been so sticky with people; is it's not just 3 P's existing laterally, it's 3 P's growing from the inside out. So when I draw it, I draw it as a concentric model; physical, personal, and then professional. And essentially, the processional is the outer ring. I say you don't even have a right to try to get a professional result until you're first taking great care of yourself physically, because you can't take care of yourself... It's like, if you want to get married, first buy a goldfish or something.
And then the second wrong is you can't take care of the people you love, the people that you supposedly care so much about, and you're trying to leapfrog right to, "I want to make a million dollars by giving value to the market, but I'm a 60 pound overweight, hypertensive slob and I'm nearing a divorce." Really? There's no credibility in that. And so I teach first take care of one, then take care of a few, then you can talk to the market. And that maps, Corey, with what you were just saying. I think that's one of the reasons people get it so sticky is because that's my counter punch to them... that's the us versus them in the market because the whole market has everybody focused on making all this money.
Corey Frank (17:29):
Sure. Although I would like to hear the podcast of the 60 pound overweight going through the divorce and all those other kinds of things. That would be interesting to at least listen to, to observe. Maybe they can mask the face of everybody that goes on there. A lot of them learning the anti-hero. With that regard, it sounds like it's a journey, I can't snap my fingers, but yet you were alluding to earlier, Jeff, that oftentimes people are not professional. In our world, in the world that Chris and I come from, in the B2B, we call it brewing it out, when I'm going to try to call you as a VP of sales and I'm going to get way too casual, way too quickly. I'm going to abuse all the nationality that Chris alluded to about tone and empathy and not be aware of how that helps build trust.
We had another good friend of ours in this podcast. He is a gentleman by the name of Oren Klaff, who wrote a book called Pitch Anything and Flip the Script. And he has a concept called squirrel theory. And squirrel theory is that when folks experienced new things, oftentimes a sales rep will try to [inaudible 00:18:40] that prospect over the head, "Hey, it's brand new, it's 10X and it'll save your life and cure cancer and do loads of other things." And Oren's testament is more his feeling, is more that it's like a squirrel discover something. You have a picnic basket under a tree, a squirrel about 20 feet away in a bush, peaks its head out a little bit, scurries a little closer and then goes back in the bush and then gets a little bit closer. And very cyclical finally gets the courage to look in the basket, hears a noise, and it goes back to the bush.
But eventually, the squirrel is feasting off your picnic basket, but it takes a couple of cycles of this novelty to not be so angst-driven [crosstalk 00:19:19] And I think that amateurs, folks like me, I'm an amateur in a lot of things, that if I was new to sales, if I were new to sales, the propensity for me to want to brow it out too quickly is masking my insecurity that I probably have that this is a new situation for me. So I'm going to have the nervous laughter, I'm going to probably talk about the weather, I'm going to try to talk about all these things that I think are engendering trust, right, Chris? But as you had said, in that sense, it is magnifying that fear factor, pushing me farther away from trust, it sounds like. Is that what you're finding with a lot of folks in your world that try to leapfrog those different P's to the professional?
Jeff Lerner (20:03):
Yeah, I think that was the question for me. So yes, I'll say... The squirrel theory is exactly why I had to have so much content. Every new video in their feed was an opportunity for them to come to it just closer, but still dart back. And I just had to keep serving up more and more videos, more and more videos, more and more picnic baskets, more and more picnic baskets until eventually, they're close enough. And they're like, "Well, I haven't been caught by the animal catcher yet. I haven't been attacked by the leopard yet. So I'm just going to go down on this picnic basket." And it gets a little safer each time. So yeah, I think that's exactly right. And as far as professionalism and trust, if you want to... And this is true B2C and B2B. This is why that stuff you were saying is so ineffective.
If you want to build trust with somebody in a professional context, whether it's consumer or a business, show them that you respect the value of their time. Talking about the weather is the opposite of that. And so for me, I had to focus my conversations on universal concepts that I know people struggle with.
Listen, if you talk about not having time to go to the gym, if you talk about having a fight with your wife and going to sleep and not having enough time the next morning to actually talk it through and resolve it because you're late for work, if you talk about your kid coming home crying because they struggle in school and their learning style isn't a fit for the way schools teach, but you feeling fearful that if they don't succeed in school, what hope do they have in this world because you're not aware of an alternate path that I happen to know, those are conversations that just get right into people's pains and that show them that I respect and I share their experience of the world. If you want to build rapport with somebody, talk about stuff like that, don't talk about the weather, right?
Corey Frank (21:57):
Yeah, that's great stuff. Your favorite sports team or [crosstalk 00:22:01] thank God it's Monday, thank God it's Friday.
Jeff Lerner (22:04):
The other thing I wanted to say, just so I don't forget it, when you were talking about how businesses could be more human and more warm, use video, man. Just get your most, not even your most charismatic, just your most normalized, effective, healthy communicating person in your office to make a quick 90-second video articulating the single problem that your solution solved and have all your sales reps start sending that out. And you'll, forget the term, you'll 10X, the effectiveness of everything you're doing from an outreach space. People just like watching videos now.
Chris Beall (22:46):
Especially if you send them right after a conversation, because they'll actually open it.
Jeff Lerner (22:49):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Chris Beall (22:53):
That's the ultimate 10X cheat, right? You talk to 10 times more people, send everyone a video, and you got open rate times 10X more conversations. That's a hundred X right there, which is too scary and nobody wants to do.
Jeff Lerner (23:06):
Yeah. And most people's businesses would crash and burn if they actually had a hundred times more customers.
Chris Beall (23:12):
They will [crosstalk 00:23:13]
Jeff Lerner (23:12):
Let me share with you guys an interesting anecdote or experience that you guys can maybe process in your own worlds because, presumably, you guys are also trying to advise your clients on these types of concepts, where you're trying to help them be more successful with your solutions. When I started this experiment and saying, "Hey..." I actually launched it in September, 2018. I walked out on a stage out at event with the equivalent of this; it was a selfie stick and my phone. And I said, "Ladies and gentlemen, I am starting over in my career. I sold my agency and with a very meager startup budget, I'm going to make a million dollars with these two things." It wasn't this, it was a little plastic selfie stick I bought at Best Buy and my phone.
I said, "I'm going to make a million dollars with a few bucks and my phone and a selfie stick. And here's how I'm going to do it." And I explained the whole concept. I said, "I'm going to go out to market and strike up conversations, build trust, create rapport, get intelligence, get feedback from people, figure out what product they want. Eventually once I have a big enough trusting audience, I'll launch a product, I'll..." I did have that much in mind. Again, I didn't know what the brand was going to be, I didn't know what the product was going to be, I didn't know all the details, but I told everyone what I was going to do. And I even sold a product at that event because I'm always a marketer. I can't help myself.
I said, "For $1,500, you can be a part of a private Facebook group with me where I will take you through this experience and we can all do it together, arm and arm and lockstep as a group. And I'll always be the lead dog, I'll be... I'll figure out the settings on the YouTube videos, I'll figure out the keyword optimization hacks, I'll figure out the types of subject matter, I'll figure out how to do the audience targeting analysis. And I'll just share it with everyone in this group. So you'll benefit from my obsessive workout thinking and trailblazing." And I think at that event, 40 people signed up. 90 days later, guess how many people were still meeting their quote of producing one video a day, even while I was out there doing all the hard work?
Chris Beall (25:14):
Zero?
Jeff Lerner (25:16):
Chris, you're a cynic. It was more than zero.
Chris Beall (25:18):
Okay. Well, what can I say? I just watch people try to do things every day. I asked myself, how many people have gone for a barefoot run every day since 1 January, 2007? And the number is pretty small.
Jeff Lerner (25:31):
Probably zero. My answer was actually overly... my response to you was overly skating because the answer was one.
Chris Beall (25:37):
Wow. Wow.
Jeff Lerner (25:38):
So you were actually very close. Your cynicism was mostly [crosstalk 00:25:42]
Chris Beall (25:43):
For all we know, that one skipped a day somewhere when you were looking the other direction.
Corey Frank (25:48):
Well, were you surprised by that, Jeff, from when you originally issued the challenge, when you originally coalesced this group, did you assume it would be one in that amount of time?
Jeff Lerner (26:00):
Nothing surprises me anymore. I have completely enrolled in a philosophy in all aspects of my life of hoping for the best and planning for the worst with myself, with life, with environment, with other people, with the stock market, with investments, with error. And I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than consistently disappointed. I focus on having extremely high expectations of myself, extremely low expectations of everyone else and it seems to work out. It didn't really surprise me. I've been doing some form of on and off marketing coaching. Even when I had my agency, I was having conversations indirectly through my team with thousands of business owners, advising them on how they can improve their internal processes. Because the number one response we would get when we were talking about marketing is people saying, "I can't handle more business," because a lot of these were owner-operator, solopreneur plumbers, roofers, landscape guys, whatever.
And we say, "Okay, you can't handle more business. That's fine. But could you handle more mine?" Even though that somebody is trying to be difficult. Nobody ever says, "No, I couldn't handle more money." You say, "Okay, great. Wouldn't it be worth taking 10 minutes to discuss your business? There's usually one weak link in your process where you don't get back to people fast enough, you don't know how to get the proposal out the right way, you don't have the right marketing message, you don't know how to close a deal. There's usually one tweak we could make that could probably double your capacity for new business. Or maybe it's on the fulfillment supply or distribution side, whatever. I've dealt with enough businesses. I can usually help. Let's at least try to solve that problem because I'm sure if you went home to your wife and said, 'Hey, honey, I told this guy on the phone today I couldn't handle more money.' She would be like, 'Go back to work tomorrow, call the guy back.' So why don't we just entertain it?"
I had so many of these conversations and people just... they have not-invented-here syndrome. It's so ridiculous because they go out into the market looking for a better idea to do things a better way because they're frustrated with their own results, but then they reject things categorically because it wasn't their idea. I don't know if that's... it's probably ego. They don't want to admit that somebody else knew what they did and about their business. It's like somebody telling you how to raise your kid. So to answer your question, no, I was not surprised. And now who [crosstalk 00:28:13]
Chris Beall (28:13):
I wasn't either because I thought it was zero.
Corey Frank (28:17):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (28:18):
Well, you know what? It's not actually cynicism fundamentally though. Let's face it. That group of people who signed up in that moment signed up because of their experience in that moment. Had they already been signed up inside themselves sufficiently that they could actually do this thing for 45 days, 90 days, 180 days, they would have already been doing something like that. So it's hardly surprising that that's the kind of person who signs up because they're super attracted to something. It's like, "Hey, finally, something that I can do every day with somebody." It's like, "Well..."
That's why I made the comment about I run barefoot every day. I've been doing it every day since 1 January, 2007. I've never missed a day any time. Why? Well, because I'm not going to miss a day. I'm just not. And I wouldn't recommend it to somebody else because, I don't know, it probably might be a bad idea or whatever, but people who can do things, who figured out how to do things that are not easy to do every day, or maybe they are, for me it's easy, but they're already doing them. They just are already doing them. You catch an adult who's about to... in one's truth. That would be saying, "Actually, you're going to get the physical... Was their physical in shape to do something every day? Was their personal in shape to support doing something every day?"
For you, it's like this great idea. I got the selfie stick, and I'm going to do this thing, and I'm going to make this multi-million dollar business right in front of God and everyone. But for them, they're still going, without knowing it, "But my physical doesn't even support that." They haven't even done that first step. So it's like, "Yeah, we just found out that you had a great experience telling you that you got to start at the beginning, and this wasn't the beginning."
Corey Frank (30:09):
Chris, I'm curious on the running thing, but James to you, is that the book Atomic Habits, right? Another one by [crosstalk 00:30:17]
Jeff Lerner (30:17):
Yeah, James Clear.
Corey Frank (30:18):
James Clear, exactly. That's right. James Clear. You're talking about the physical and the personal, professional. And again, I'm still hung up on that number of group down to one and I think in Atomic Habits he talks about this cue, and then routine, and then I think there's a response, and then the reward. I think those are the four, right?
Jeff Lerner (30:39):
Right.
Corey Frank (30:39):
Cue, craving, response and reward. And so that kind of loop, it builds your life into it. Is that the same type of principle, what you talk about in the physical and the personal, professional and that something's got to be that cue for. Something's got to be, they responded to your ad in the B2C world because, "Hey, I want a better life. I want an awesome life." But maybe it's like, "I don't want to have that awesome of a life." Maybe it's like the, "I don't feel enough pain to want to prompt it." Where do you find that that drops off? Is it because I live a relatively life here in the Western world and nothing is as bad as... "My boss isn't that bad. I don't make that little of money. My wife isn't that bad," et cetera. And we start rationalizing, as the second strongest human urge sometimes that we have. Where do you see from your experience training all these people and with regards to that habit, or do we just fall short?
Jeff Lerner (31:41):
Yeah. You're exactly right. Most people have built a fort of comfort with fort, is basically what comfort means. "In my fort, I'm comfortable." And so what I really try to lean on, and I will say, the problem you're alluding to got better in my favor in terms of the mission of what I'm trying to do, which is activate real, meaningful change in people since COVID. COVID shocked and scared enough people to go, "My illusion of comfort was... I'm a little more willing to admit how illusory it was. And so I'm a little more willing to respond on the basis that it might not be permanent." But pre-COVID and soon enough, we'll regress to the mean and people will be delusionally secure again.
What I really try to do is create an ideology and a language and a shared understanding, a belief system about the world. And part of the way you do that is you agitate it and you develop it internally with your language. And part of the way you do it is you just attract people from the get-go that already believe what you believe, which is... And there's a lot of people in this world, and certainly in this country, that are frustrated by the lowest common denominator thinking, the idea that meritocracy is unfair, that every kid should get the same grade, every kid should get a participation trophy.
Jeff Lerner (34:39):
There's a lot of pent up frustration in this world around that stuff. And so, all I have to do is tap into it and say, "Listen, if you want to have an awesome life, you have to be committed to excellence. If you want to be committed to excellence, you have to be excellent. If you want to be excellent, you have to be as unlike the average as possible because there's a little camp up there on top of the mountain where all the excellent people hanging out, and there's this giant Valley at the bottom of the mountain that all the shit rolls downhill to that's called Average Camp. And all I'm inviting you to do is take the hard walk up the hill into the Excellent Camp where there's 700 of us that have the great life, but it's an open border. It's not discriminatory. Anyone can, but obviously everyone won't because most people will choose to be average.
I have that conversation so much in my world that you're either going to be repelled by the conversation because you think what a tyrannical jerk I am, or you're going to love the conversation, which means you are signing up to believe what I believe, which means it's now easy to convict you if you're not doing the work. Because I'm inviting you to self-select to excellence, so all the typical average behavior now becomes a contradiction and you guys know the Commitment and Consistency principle from Robert Cialdini. If I'm having people take micro-commitments, and I don't just think about micro-commitments as, "I bought a $5 product. Now I'll buy a $50 product. Now I'll sign up for a coaching call. Now I'll buy a $500 an hour product. Now I'll sign up for an annual bundle for 20 grand," or whatever the ascension stack is.
But I think of micro-commitments as, "I posted a picture in Facebook holding a piece of paper on which I wrote my 90 days 3 P's goals. And I took a picture smiling on Facebook, and now I'm committed. I'm a little more committed to excellence and one foot out of the average camp." And I walk people through those type of micro commitments. I have a process... All my processes that are the indoctrination processes in my world, they're very personal growth-focused. I have something called the ENTRE Blueprint that walks them through very basic steps, mostly personal development. I have something called the Awesome Life Challenge. It's things like developing your success character and standing in a mirror and acting like a cartoon defined version of yourself where your best attributes are enhanced.
Just like cartoon characters, they enhance certain characteristics and you minimize your weakest attributes. And I have them do these exercise and then post about the exercises in the groups. And I have them go through something called an implementation bootcamp, which is a two-week training that doesn't teach you anything other than how to be a better implementer, regardless of what you're implementing. It's like all the basic training modality. And once I've done that, people are like, "Hey, we're the few, the proud, the entrepreneurs. And we're excellent." And I don't really have to fight those battles anymore. But the reason it works for me is because I've invested the time and I take the time and I've created those resources. There's no shortcut.
Chris Beall (37:41):
You just said, I think, Jeff, the big reason most people don't choose excellence, and that is excellence is a form of exile from the community in which they grew up, the community in which they're comfortable, and the community in which they can have the primary conversation that people have all day, every day, which is to achieve rapport by complaining. This is the number one source of words coming out of people's mouths coming on to social media. All of the words that if you add them all up and you say, "Is this a word that's within a complaint about something or not?" You'll get 99-1. 99, it's out of every 100, are within a complaint about something.
Jeff Lerner (38:30):
So true.
Chris Beall (38:31):
And it's a lonely idea, a scary and lonely idea because we fear exile way, way worse than death. Exile is the worst punishment throughout all of human time. It has been the way that we punish those that have transgressed the most, is we exile them. If we like them a little better, we kill them. But if we really, really think they're bad, we exile them. And choosing self exile from your community of complainers is itself such a lonely prospect that the idea of going part way up that mountain and now you have nobody, you're nowhere. That truly is no man's land. There's no one living in a hut one halfway up Mount Excellence. And so it's scary. And I think you've hit the reason. And this is true. And this isn't a B2B or B2C thing. This is just when you make a company, for instance, one of the things I do when I'm asking people whether they want to join us, I make it clear it's probably a bad idea for them to join a company and work with me.
And the reason is, I say, "Look, first, you don't get the comfort of having somebody to report to and getting to blame that person for your woes. We both report to the truth. And the truth is a hard task master." Every once in a while, we don't have enough information. We don't have enough time. Somebody has got to guess, "That's my job. I'm the [guesser 00:39:57] guest, sir." It's a corrupt system. I also declare we're going to guess. You're signing up for that. Sorry, the math happens to reach a singularity point of the single guesser, but everything else, we're coming to work naked every day. We're being enthusiastically wrong every day. We don't have a place to go hide from each other because there is no each other; there's the truth. We're trying to handle the truth.
And that is a lonely place to go. And I say to folks, "I recommend you don't do it because it's going to separate you a little bit from the world where you get to go to work and you bitch." Because that's the standard, you go to work and the comfort of the job is that you get to complain about the job, the boss and the customers. That's comforting. That's the comfort, Jeff.
Jeff Lerner (40:41):
It is. I'll tell you how I counter that. Again, you have to... Us versus them is the most powerful concept in marketing, at least from my experience. And the way I combat that is I really do have to somewhat demonize the average, perhaps unfairly. But you have to. Change is always an overcorrection or else nothing changes. I remember my mom telling me, when I was a little kid, somebody at school used the term feminazis or something. A militant feminist is a feminazi. And I was like, "Mom, what's a feminazi? She's like, "A feminazi is a very activist feminist. But the thing you have to understand, Jeffrey," because I was eight when I asked the question, she's like, "somebody has to be radical and extreme just to get enough light shined on an issue for the mean to shift a little bit towards the extreme. You have to have Malcolm X so that Martin Luther King Jr. could win," is what she was saying. And I was like, "That's true because otherwise we're just creatures of inertia and nothing changes."
So the way I have to do it is I really vilify the common environment that you're describing, this complainer society. What I do is I hearken back our tribal origins and I say, "Historically, what I'm asking you to do would have been terrifying you because it would make you less like the people around you, which creates an existential threat you'll be cast out and eaten by a bear. But the world we live in now ask yourself, 'Who is my tribe?'" And you've given me some new language here to have this conversation with because every tribe in the modern world is already basically a tribe of exiles.
How many of your friends that you're sitting around complaining with are working in the family business? How many of them even grew up in the town that they're working in? How many of you actually live together in the same neighborhood? How many of you, his kids actually go to school together? All the tribal connective tissue has been completely scrapped and reworked in modern society. So you're clinging to a tribal concept that already doesn't apply. So get over the idea of needing to belong in the tribe and realizing you're never going to live in the nice hut in the tribe until you go out of the tribe, prove yourself in battle like the prodigal tribesmen who goes out and then comes back the returning neuro so you can rule the damn tribe. That's it. Right?
Chris Beall (43:13):
That was so flipping good that I almost used an adjective. But this is a family show because Corey's got lots of love [crosstalk 00:43:25]
Jeff Lerner (43:24):
I used the sh word, and I apologize for that guys.
Chris Beall (43:28):
Did you really? I was in a conversation with a very senior executive at a big, big payroll services company and the number of words like that she used, it made me feel pretty good. I felt like I belonged. It was excellent.
Corey Frank (43:44):
Isn't that a more... It'd be interesting. Just talk about that just for a second, is I got bro it out over here on the amateur scale. And then we've all been part of B2B conversations where that happens. And again, listen, hey, we're in a real world, we're not daisies or immune to power boards in the world here and shocked by subtle things like that. But it is a technique, is it not? It is a discomfort. Oftentimes where people overtly use language like that in business, it masks an insecurity, it masks something. What do you say?
Chris Beall (44:25):
Not in this case. But yes, I think it often does in this specific case [crosstalk 00:44:28] In this case, what...
Corey Frank (44:30):
The team was good and [crosstalk 00:44:30]
Chris Beall (44:30):
No, it wasn't pain at all. It was actually the opposite. It was a 20-minute meeting that turned into a deep exploration of the market dominance opportunity for a multi-billion dollar company. And we hit on the very thing that could be done. This is a first meeting, a 20-minute discovery meeting. And it was an hour and 27 minutes into it where all of the covers came off. All of the buckets were brought out, we looked at all of this, some of this or some of this, and then it was just, we were on the same team and just talking about how to solve a big problem.
Corey Frank (45:07):
Well, you hit raw nerve by this epiphany of what I've have been missing.
Chris Beall (45:12):
Exactly. It's one of these things that... This is why AI can't possibly work with language, because we can barely do it ourselves unless we were there. It's so subtle how language works with folks. Jeff, you talked about vocabulary. I used to be a relatively well-known in certain circles large-Scale software systems developer. I was an architect. I was the guy you brought in when... if the guys had been working or the gals have been working for four years and the thing isn't going to deliver, and somebody's got to fix it and we have four weeks and we're going to make it again from scratch. That was what I did for a living.
And the first thing that I would always do is get the team together and say, "We're going to stay in this room until we agree as to the precise definition, in three different ways of defining it, of every single word that we're going to use from now, until this product is built. Let's start putting words on the board and let's decide what they mean." And it normally takes three or four days. And it's really, really just uncomfortable for people because they're going, "Why aren't we writing code? Why aren't we writing code?" And it's because until we speak the same language, we don't have a chance of writing a coherent system.
And once we speak the same language excellently with precision, with deep understanding of what these words mean, and specifically what they don't mean, what they're anti-meaning is, how this isn't one of those, as soon as we understand that, it's the easiest thing in the world to write massive bug-free systems. And I think it's the same thing when you're writing, so to speak, writing or architecting a system for life. You've got to get to where the words have specific, precise, shared, resonant meanings, or it's very dangerous to talk... It's dangerous enough to talk in person like this. It's really dangerous to talk in writing when there's no one there to correct you on the spot when you make an emotional error with the word, and those are the big errors.
Jeff, you said that you had [crosstalk 00:47:14] for a while, and now a while is over. Look, I am going to work on one of my P's immediately. My barefoot running has been short today and I'm going to go make it six miles or seven miles longer. So that one is in the bag. I simply love your concentric foundations and why they are like they are. I tell you when young entrepreneurs ask me a question all the time, which is, "What's the one thing I need to do in order to be successful?"
And I say, "Take great care of your body because when your body starts to not quite support, just tiny bit, or you're not getting why it's not supporting the next level of activity, which is your personal, but when your body won't do it anymore, you won't notice it. All you'll do is fail." And entrepreneurship begs you not to take good care of your body. It just begs you to because it says, "There's always one more thing I can do at the keyboard. There's always one more thing I can do sitting down."
So I'm going to go for a trot with huge, huge, thanks to you. I heard that a guy had an awesome life kind of company, but you're bringing awesome life to Market Dominance Guys today. This is simply an amazing experience. Thank you.
Jeff Lerner (48:34):
I'm so glad we got to do it, guys. While we were talking, I texted two different people to move meetings out because I enjoyed this conversation so much I didn't want to cut it short. So I really appreciate you guys.
Corey Frank (48:45):
Well, we got to have [Yon 00:48:46] in... In fact, we should send an invite immediately after this, Chris, but one year from today, because I have a feeling as more and more quarters and months in the next years come by, Jeff's going to be a tougher and tougher get, and Tony Robin's going to be opening up for Jeff Lerner, I think, here. Because the principals are so timeless and clearly for us to go this long on a Market Dominance episode is pretty unusual too. So we certainly appreciate all this. I got three pages of notes here. So I always live vicariously through Chris and my guests here and adopt all this new content and spend it all on myself and the teams here. So we appreciate that certainly. With that, this has been another episode of the Market Dominance guys with Corey Frank and Chris Beall. Until next time.
Up to now, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, have used this podcast as a platform addressing the topic of how to dominate B2B markets. But today, the guys are interviewing Jeff Lerner, founder, and CEO of Entre Institute, about the process he employs to dominate a B2C market. By placing daily video messages on social media about himself, his life, and his goal to help people improve their lives, Jeff proves to his prospects that he is a person they can identify with and, eventually, a person they can trust. It’s not as quick as a cold call: Jeff says it takes about six months of exposure to his messages before skepticism is diminished in his prospects’ minds and they trust him enough to be open to what his company offers.
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Chris compares the arc of Jeff’s social media campaign with that of a salesperson who makes cold calls, including the ambush of catching a prospect unaware with an unscheduled call — which is very much like what Jeff does when his videos pop up on social media, essentially ambushing his potential buyers and creating instant mistrust. Jeff explains that the more complex the problem is that you’re trying to solve for your prospects, the more mistrust there is for you to overcome. And, as he says, “You don’t build trust with knowledge or technical competence. You build it emotionally, empathetically.” Listen in while Chris, Corey, and Jeff discover more similarities between dominating business and consumer markets in this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “B2B or B2C: It’s All About Gaining Trust.”
About Our Guest
Jeff Lerner is CEO and founder of Entre Institute, which provides business training, inspiration, and personal support through videos, messaging, online workshops, and one-on-one interaction for entrepreneurs who want to create online businesses and awesome lives.
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This is the full transcript for this episode: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/jsn8u2/mdg-20210422-lerner-2-time-50-15.mp3
Announcer (01:10):
It's not as quick as a cold call. Jeff says it takes about six months of exposure to his message before skepticism is diminished in his prospect's minds and they trust them enough to be open to what his company offers. Chris compares the arc of Jeff's social media campaign with that of a sales person who makes cold calls, including the ambush of catching a prospect unaware with an unscheduled call, which is very much like what Jeff does when his videos pop up on social media, essentially ambushing his potential buyers and creating instant mistrust. Jeff explains that the more complex the problem is that you're trying to solve for your prospects the more mistrust there is for you to overcome. And as he says, "You don't build trust with knowledge or technical competence. You build it emotionally and empathetically." Listen in while Chris, Corey, and Jeff discover more similarities between dominating business and consumer markets. In this Market Dominance Guys, episode B2B or B2C, it's all about gaining trust.
Chris Beall (02:18):
All right, everybody. We got to overcome the shock of it being me, Chris Beall on Market Dominance Guys. I'm CEO of ConnectAndSell. I'm here with Jeff Lerner, who is the founder CEO of Entre Learning Systems. Broke jazz musicians done $250 million in sales. I don't know, I can't keep track and things go up into the [inaudible 00:02:42] all you can do is just kind of whip your head up and see if you can keep your eyes going. Jeff, welcome to the show.
Jeff Lerner (02:46):
Thanks Chris. Excited to be here. We can parse those numbers, but I'm grateful for the intro for sure.
Chris Beall (02:52):
Well, I tell you what, every once in a while I tell people about a deal I did back in the day and I know it was a hundred and twenty million, but when other people tell the story, it becomes 150, 180. Sometimes you just got to go with it. Just got to go with it.
Jeff Lerner (03:06):
I just have to say exits, run rates. They're basically all fishing stories.
Chris Beall (03:11):
Yeah. Oh God. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I caught a fish that was this big. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, Jeff was kind enough to have me on his podcast and it was spectacular. It was a ton of fun. We kept finding out all these bizarre things that we had in common. It got weirder and weirder and weirder in a good way. I mean, it really did. After a while, we're like, "Really? Not one more thing? You got to be kidding me." Right? So he's done me now, a double kindness coming on and let's let Corey in the room here. Here comes Corey Frank. Corey Frank is in the room. He's looking good. He's he's running a real business to. Corey, we're already on. We're already running. So I want to introduce you to Jeff Lerner.
Corey Frank (03:59):
Jeff, how are you?
Jeff Lerner (04:00):
Hey Corey. Nice to meet you, man. How are you?
Corey Frank (04:02):
Fantastic. Last day of the month. Last day of the quarter. Always good.
Jeff Lerner (04:05):
Yes, that's right. Yeah. We're all trying to break records, right?
Corey Frank (04:09):
Indeed.
Chris Beall (04:10):
So Jeff founded and runs Entre education services? I can never remember things.
Jeff Lerner (04:17):
Entre Institute.
Chris Beall (04:18):
Entre Institute. I love it. Entre Institute. And Corey runs something called Youngblood. I can't even say it because when I get to the word blood, I realize everybody's listening. Youngblood Works and it's one of those names you have to parse it and go, is it that the Youngblood Works or that the Youngblood Works or whatever, but he is bringing a whole new way of making new business happen for companies, especially in cybersecurity, but for others. And it's pretty magical stuff. So Corey is, I believe in Phoenix right now it's our Scottsdale. It looks familiar.
Corey Frank (04:54):
We have another store's Location in Phoenix, Arizona. That's correct.
Chris Beall (04:57):
An undisclosed location.
Corey Frank (04:58):
[inaudible 00:04:58].
Chris Beall (05:00):
So what we're going to talk about today is Corey, believe it or not, we always talk about B2B. And we talk about how to dominate B2B markets by using a conversation first approach. And I talk to people about this regularly, as do you. And usually we get this raised eyebrow, like what do you mean conversation first approach? And then when we talk about building trust through conversations and harvesting the trust as you go to market in order to create massive competitive advantage and lower the friction and cost of acquiring customers until finally you're dominating that market.
Chris Beall (05:31):
When we talk about that, people think that's even weirder because they think you've got to talk value in order to get trust. But we believe that you should offer value and in a cold call, that value is, "I'll go away, if you let me say 27 seconds worth of stuff." In order to instantly get trust and then go from trust toward curiosity and from curiosity, ultimately to the opportunity to offer somebody value. We have here with us today somebody, in the form of Jeff, who's done this and B2C. You don't know anything about B2C, right?
Corey Frank (06:05):
I've purchased something on the internet in my past, at least once. Yes. That's about it.
Chris Beall (06:10):
Okay. All right. All right. Well I know-
Corey Frank (06:12):
[inaudible 00:06:12].
Chris Beall (06:15):
I don't know a great deal about it either. If you asked me to run a B2C business, I would figure out a second letter, other than C. I'd run B to F or B to Q or something like that because I'm a clueless consumer. And I watched Jeff as we were getting ready for the show, go in and remake the credentials for an e-commerce site so somebody who's helping him with it could do her job. And I would just look at it like a cow looks at an oncoming train. So I got an opening question for Jeff and then Corey, we're going to let you take it away because this is about as much prep as you ever get.
Chris Beall (06:51):
So Jeff just high level you told me that you use conversation first approach to dominate a B2C market. I would contend that's impossible because how could you get all the conversations and wouldn't you go broke in the meantime and all that. So first of all, did that idea come to you? Like I'm going to do it this way or I'm so brilliant. I figured out this way to do it, or was it something that you started doing and then went, "Holy moly, this actually is the right way to do it." Or what? How'd you get going with this incorrect model?
Jeff Lerner (07:25):
It was kind of a combination of all three options. So I'll say D all of the above, but I have to focus on the fact that there was an element of presupposition that this approach would work, how it would work, how it would unfold, what it would even end up working for that kind of evolved through the process and through the conversations and through the intelligence and feedback gathering of the conversations. So for example, when it started, it wasn't Entre Institute, it was just Jeff knowing that he knew some stuff. And then at some point he wanted to figure out how to A, get what he knew to a large number of people. And obviously to do that in any sustainable way, it means to build a for-profit business out of it so that it can keep going and keep reaching more people.
Jeff Lerner (08:14):
So it started as just like, "Hey, I know some things that a lot of people could benefit from, and I want to scale the message and monetize the message so that I can keep scaling the message over time." And I know that the best way to start that is just start talking. And start sharing and start giving value. Obviously, when you're talking conversations B2C on mass, it's different than B2B conversations where you think of having a dialogue with a purchasing manager at a big logistics company, or I guess logistics companies don't do purchasing so that was a bad example, but you know what I mean. A LinkedIn chat. For me, a conversation was Facebook video, comment thread, 600 comments, me taking the time to respond to every comment that was worth responding to, and maybe having 35 conversations in a feed where everybody can see it.
Jeff Lerner (09:05):
So indirectly, it becomes a conversation with a hundred thousand people that have all seen the video by proxy of the 35 people in the comments. So I did that. Basically, I knew that I knew how to go build real businesses on the internet. I'd been doing it at that time for 10 years. And I have a good story which helps drive conversations. I had gone from 10 years prior to that 2008, I was a broke out of work, jazz musician, half a million dollars in debt from a couple sales restaurant businesses that we're all on borrowed money that they never should have given me the loan in the first place, except it was 2006 and the banks were insane. They'd loan, a 27 year old kid, 400 grand to hang himself with, but I had paid off all that debt. I'd gone online in 2008. I paid off all that debt.
Jeff Lerner (09:54):
At that point, I had generated close to about 50 million bucks just with total online businesses, working from home on a laptop or whatever. And they were all businesses you can start with relatively low startup capital. And I'm like, "I know that this stuff would change most people's lives." Most people are stuck in a job. They toil. They don't get what they love. They don't love what they get. What if everybody knew what I knew? So I started putting information out to market about the business side of it, but also I didn't want to get caught up in the perception of being another one of these talking head, internet business, make money online, scammy guru, people that have rented Lamborghini's and Airbnb mansions that they stay in for three days while they shoot their ad video. And I didn't want to be one of those guys.
Jeff Lerner (10:41):
So I really wanted to focus on a more holistic conversation and I'm married. I'm a dad. I coach kids basketball team. My favorite thing in the world is just to play with my kids. And I work out a lot, I'm really into health and fitness. I go to a lot of therapies. So I'm real into communication dynamics and healthy relationships. And I wanted to fold all of that into a conversation about the new digital economy and these business models and these business tools that are available to everyone, where you can learn how to build a funnel, create a decent offer, find a target audience, pair those three things together, throw some money at it, grow your brand and your message inside of it.
Jeff Lerner (11:23):
If you have something to say, and you have value to offer, you can build a hell of a business. That model is out there. There's 7.7 billion people in the world. And I think four billion of them have internet access. And that model is available to all four billion of those. And yet 96% of people self report dissatisfaction in their job. 86% of people report dissatisfaction in their lives. And I'm like, "Well, screw the doctors. I'm the one with the prescription. They can fix all these problems." So I just started giving the value. Here's how I built my online business. Here's how having an online business allows me to go to therapy at two o'clock in the afternoon with my wife so we can learn to communicate better because I don't have to ask for time off or be in trouble because I left work. And here's how my online business allows me to pay for healthy prepared meals. Facilitates a whole life, a whole quality of life, not just a big fat bank account.
Jeff Lerner (12:13):
And that's the conversation that I struck up on the internet. And I was just putting out video after video, after video saying, "Hey, my name's Jeff Lerner. You can look me up online. Here's a picture of my house. I'm a real guy. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I just truly believe that what I know can change the world and it can change your world. Let me know if you have any questions." And over the course of the year, I put out between Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, I put out probably close to a thousand videos or re edited videos for the different platforms and stuff. Probably about three or 400 source videos of just me giving away free value. After a year of doing that, I had thousands of conversations. I had millions of people engage with my content, a re-targetable audience on Facebook of two million people that were like, "Man, I like this Jeff guy. He's really trying to help. He's not trying to sell me anything."
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Before ConnectAndSell, we had to deal with everything that everybody else has to deal with. Cold calls, gatekeepers, automated phone trees, dial by name directories. So using ConnectAndSell, instead of having two conversations an hour, we're having 10 conversations an hour, everybody's making money. So with that, we sell our lives cut easier, helped us increase our production by 70% because I don't have to do all this manual work.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
Now my reps can actually speak to more real conversations, more real customer calls and more real money. Yeah, we made money. We made seven figures off of that test drive. A sales rep, uploads the list, presses play they're connected to the customer. It is completely easy, effortless with no dialing. Do yourself a favor call ConnectAndSell and watch the magic happen.
Announcer (14:36):
And we're back with Corey and Chris.
Jeff Lerner (14:38):
They're like, "Hey, do you have a course I can by." Or like, "Hey, is there any way I can give you money to get more from you?" And it's like-
Corey Frank (14:48):
How long-
Jeff Lerner (14:48):
Well, speak of the devil. Yeah? Go ahead.
Corey Frank (14:48):
How long does that process take do you see to build that trust and ameliorate that fear?
Jeff Lerner (14:58):
It took me-
Corey Frank (14:59):
Because in the B2B world, we know what it is, but in your B2C experience, how long does that take?
Jeff Lerner (15:03):
It took me six months I would say of showing up every day to go from people ignoring me to people being annoyed by me, to people being intrigued by me, to people listening, but skeptical of me and eventually people listening to me and wanting it to be true. And then eventually winning them over that I'm not going to go away and I'm too transparent to be made up. So now you can finally trust and that was six steps I just gave you it was probably about one per month. I spent a month in obscurity and then the next month I just spent annoying people, but I kept going.
Corey Frank (15:46):
So once you capture that name or that prospect or that ICP, that you identify, you build a relationship, whatever your cadence is, weekly or monthly in this case.
Jeff Lerner (16:00):
Daily. Daily was mine.
Corey Frank (16:01):
Daily, daily. And a lot of it is growing value up front to go through those six steps of annoyance and acceptance and trust.
Jeff Lerner (16:11):
And it's got to be daily. I think probably one of the differences between B2C is B2C could also be called business the chaos or business declutter or business to crowd. If you want to stand out in the crowd, you're going to have a high quantity of content for the average person that you're trying to reach to see you the seven times in their Facebook feed, that it takes to create a memorable imprint there's probably a hundred million impressions that have gone through that feed that you have to pop up into. It just takes a lot more quantity. I used to do inbound marketing for B2B clients when I had an agency. And that was much more quality over quantity. I think with B2C I don't want to say quantity over quality, but I would say quality without quantity is almost useless.
Corey Frank (16:59):
Have you discovered any data or the biophysiology of why it takes that long on that process? Obviously some of them when you're trying to cast a wide net and I absolutely want a better life. Absolutely, I want to be better looking and thinner and more in shape and have a relationship and financial independence. So you may get folks where just the intersectionality of pay opportunity and preparedness like you got me at the right time. My boss just pissed on me. My cat pissed on everything, but for a person who's at rest, who you need to stimulate in a direction of moving toward your ultimate call to action, is it because it's just a by-product of so much noise in the universe now? And so many folks adopting this, but from a data perspective, why should it take so long on that B2C process?
Jeff Lerner (17:53):
It's a function of a few things. One, it is just the pure volume of content and messaging. I mean, I forget the statistics, but I think people are exposed four million marketing messages a day now something like completely mind blowing. And so for you to claim any tiny, memorable fraction of those total messages, those total impressions, you just got to show up a lot. Plus skepticism is at an all time high. And this goes with the high volume of marketing messages, the barrier to entry to getting your message out to someone online. And I would create one of these videos and this is an important part of the process to understand.
Jeff Lerner (18:32):
I wouldn't just post it on my profile or even just post it on my page because in late 2018, when I was doing this, the organic reach of Facebook page content had already started to fall dramatically. Facebook isn't going to do you any favors just distributing your business related content for free. So I would throw anywhere from 25 to maybe a hundred, occasionally 200 if I felt really confident in the video, dollars' worth of what they call a boost on each of these videos so that I could target a segment of the cold market to make sure they saw my videos. And so this was further data. Let's say I shot four videos that were roughly on the same subject or even the same video. I could boost it four different times. I could say target Tony Robbins audience, target Gary Vaynerchuks audience, target men over 45, target women under 35, whatever combination of demographics and interests I wanted to target I could, that was part of the intelligence gathering.
Jeff Lerner (19:28):
But it's just hard and skepticisms at all time highs so you got to win them over. And a lot of it is just the confidence. If you think about statistics, the more time something occurs, the more confidence you place in it as not just an anomaly. And there's kind of a similar effect online where not just the more times they see you, but the more different messages they see from you, the more backgrounds they see you in, the more locations they see you in, the more other people they see you with. Here's a video with me and my daughter. Here's a video of me and my wife out driving in the car. Here's me at the gym. It builds this case of, "Okay, this must be real." Nobody has the budget to fabricate an entire life with all these different facets.
Corey Frank (20:14):
Well, there's a great book, Culture Code by Daniel Coyle.
Jeff Lerner (20:17):
I just bought it. I haven't read it, but I just bought it.
Corey Frank (20:19):
It's phenomenal. And I think certainly talking with you, I think you'd agree Chris with Jeff is that there's certain folks who are just unconscious competence who probably do a lot of these things by their nature, by their intuitiveness, by their kind of at rest net we'll say, I think you probably fit into that. But Coyle talks about what are the imprints of a great organization, a great team, it could be a great family, marriage, et cetera. And you identified a couple of them probably. And as you said you didn't read the book yet, right? Number one is it's usually this concept of building safety. Can you build safety that it's safe to talk to me? And Chris we'll talk about this a little bit when we get your impression of the intro and how we ameliorate fear but also throw enough intrigue and humor and curiosity intention in there because they got to make a tough decision, but building safety and bearing vulnerability, which snuffs out the skepticism.
Corey Frank (21:16):
The more vulnerable and open I am, "Hey, listen, I'm just a real guy, flesh and blood looking at, I don't have a six pack, but I'm getting there." My life's not perfect, but it's getting there. And then the third is establishing purpose, a mission, a drive, versus a lot of folks being in this, maybe home of complacency in their life, drifting from port to port, as Uncle Zig would say like a life without a rudder and you just hope that you drift into a port of prosperity.
Corey Frank (21:42):
So with that, and again, probably because you've had so many repetitions doing this in a B2C world different than Chris and I come from where we don't have as big of as you do, [inaudible 00:21:55] certainly with many of the clients that Chris and I deal with, we have [inaudible 00:22:00] in the hundreds or thousands, not in the millions or so. But isn't that fascinating, Chris, with that there are some similarities with Jeff is doing even unconsciously to kind of build these great teams. But in your case, you are the brand and they're buying you and what you're about. What do you think about that Chris what Jeff has shared with us?
Chris Beall (22:23):
Well, it's interesting. I mean, Jeff, what you described that six step process is oddly analogous to a process that takes about 30, 40 seconds that we teach people to do on a cold call. You had to do it over six months because of the nature of the beast, because you're cold calls so to speak is to your whole audience. It's not to one person or another person, another person you're cold calling your entire audience and you need to get them-
Jeff Lerner (22:51):
I'm interrupting them as bad as any vocal, for sure.
Chris Beall (22:54):
Exactly. And it's interesting that interrupt thing, you're really ambushing, and I'll even go beyond that. They didn't agree in advance that they were going to see your video pop-up or whatever, right? So there's this ambush and the ambush psychology the way you played it forward is like a six month long cold call and it makes sense it would be six months long because you're doing it with millions of people whereas when we teach cold calling, we go, "Okay, I'll provide you with the ambush capabilities. Your Facebook is our connect and sell." So on Facebook, you get something to jump up in front of somebody. Your boost is like somebody paying us in order to push a button and talk to somebody, that's their boost. And then your opening move that you're making ends up being inevitable annoyance first, you're just showing up and then being ignored.
Chris Beall (23:51):
And then annoyance happens, right? Why are they annoyed? Well, they're kind of afraid of you because they think you're going to sell them something. So it's annoyance that a guy who I'm afraid of he's going to sell me something. I can see him but is he real, he could be fake. He's a visible stranger, but he might as well be invisible because I am not sure he ain't fake. It could be something else. And so, this is really a shock to me. You're taking them down a path. So we take folks down this journey, when you ambush somebody, you immediately establish trust because they start in a place of fear. So the way you establish trust is basically you own up to not just annoying them, but scaring them.
Chris Beall (24:35):
I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And that's where I'm going to solve a problem that you have. And you're solving a problem they have, which is a problem of hope. Their problem is 98% down to 87% of too whatever it is, depending on how you look at it. I've kind of given up, but they don't want to give up. They don't want to not like their job. They don't want to not like their life. They want hope. So you're offering them hope. And from that, I think they're going to get some trust. We're offering them a way out of their current trap. Their current trap is I just ambushed you and you want me to go away and I'm going to offer you certainty that I'll go away.
Chris Beall (25:21):
That's my offer. I will go away. Certainly. And I'll tell you how certain. I'll go away in 27 seconds. All you have to do is let me tell you why I called. And then I'm gone. And by going so early to trust in your case two months and our case seven seconds, and it probably [inaudible 00:25:41]. Here's a guess. Corey, if you were to take just him divided by your Tam or my Tam and count, and then multiply it by seven seconds, I think you get two months.
Jeff Lerner (25:55):
It's probably right.
Chris Beall (25:59):
I'm killing myself here. This is the unified field theory of business. It just happened.
Jeff Lerner (26:06):
Yeah. The other nuance I want to add to what you said I think it's important for everyone to understand, because I think it would apply B2B or B2C is the more complex the problem is that you're trying to solve the more mistrust there is for you to overcome, which means the longer the opening salvo to build it needs to take. And here's what I mean. If you're calling a business and their problem is they have dirty water in the holding tank because they have a [inaudible 00:26:42] installed that's made of the wrong material. You can call. And in like three seconds, you can build trust by saying, "Hey, I heard you have dirty water in your tank. Let me guess you have one of those porous silicone netting wraps. And I'm here to tell you about the non porous silicone netting wrap that'll eliminate dirt in your groundwater."
Jeff Lerner (27:03):
Well, boom, you got them because it was such a specific problem with such a specific solution. For me, I'm going out to millions of people saying, "So you're not totally stoked about your life." Could be your marriage, could be your health, could be your job, could be your money, turned out it could have been COVID, could be your boss is an asshole, it's such a vague and multifaceted problem that it would take me a month to even demonstrate that I have enough multi-dimensional competence to even speak to them and potentially relate to whatever their particular subset of all those issues actually is. And half the time the reason people think they're not happy, isn't even why they're really unhappy. You see what I mean? It's just a way completely different obstacles set to overcome.
Jeff Lerner (27:53):
And you nailed it though. This is, I think goes to a lot of sales mistakes. You don't build trust with knowledge or technical competence. You build it emotional. You build it limbically and empathetically with people. You can build more trust in a conversation with a guy commiserating with them about how his kid wants to play little league, but is scared because he doesn't think he's good at sports. And you have a shared experience and you can speak to that experience as a father, that's going to build more trust with some high level CEO, than expounding on the technical issue he's dealing with in his business.
Corey Frank (28:35):
Do you find Jeff that as you've tested these messages, because you are selling, you're selling a better life. And as you had said, when you asked 10 people, what is a better life mean? They may have different answers. So you have to sell kind of abstractly, but also big enough and specific enough where there's enough of a honeypot to want to learn more, walk us through that journey of how you tested different messages, because you can't go, "Hey, 10X man." Right? Sometimes that works for some folks, but some are like, "10X? That's too concentrated. I'm happy with 1.5X." How do you go through that in a B2C world? Because you're dealing with so much more volume and your data probably comes at you much faster than it would for Chris or I in the B2B world.
Jeff Lerner (29:27):
Yeah. And I didn't think about it in these terms in the beginning, but I can say based on how it unfolded and now looking back, this is exactly what I think the right answer is. B2C is all about controlling language and creating meaning in words, words that mean something to you. You need those words to become memes, packets of information, to convey complex ideas. And somebody at some point had to create the word streaming. Now if we go on and we say, "We're the world's fastest streaming service." That's a whole set of information bundled in the word streaming. But somebody had to create that understanding across culture.
Jeff Lerner (30:12):
So for me, I had to, and this happened again organically because at first I was. I was jumping all around trying to find my messaging, trying to find my consistent group, because I'm talking relationship dynamics and all these theories that I'm pulling from things I've studied. Positive discipline with my kids, responsive listening with my wife, things I learned from Gottman at The Love Lab things I learned from Tony Robbins and Unleash the Power Within things I learned from Zig Ziglar on old YouTube videos. And it becomes this hodgepodge of accumulated wisdom, the Six Principles of Persuasion from Robert Cialdini so from that cloud had to emerge my vernacular, my vocabulary that people could start to attach to just like a logo or a brand conjures up feelings and a robust understanding of something.
Jeff Lerner (31:00):
When you're just a guy talking on the internet, you're not a logo. You're not a brand. You have to find words that can accomplish the same thing. And what I ultimately honed in on and this is it. If somebody said, Jeff, to what would you attribute the fact that in the last three years, you've sold over 130,000 paying courses, paid students enrolled into your school. That's not really a school, but Entre Institute. You're the fastest growing. And one of the largest private education companies in the world, and less than three years ago, you were an unknown dad in a small town in Southern Utah, driving around in your car, shooting videos on your cell phone. How did you do that? I would say, it's this. I found one really powerful mnemonic theme that everybody resonated with, which is if you want to have an awesome life. My first brand wasn't Entre Institute, it was actually School of Awesome. Basically I honed in on a set of words, the key to an awesome life is a commitment to excellence.
Jeff Lerner (32:04):
It's not about money. It's not about love. It's not about good luck, it's not about a six pack. It's about excellence because progress is happiness and excellence will drive human system progress So you want to have an awesome life. You have to be committed to excellence, but excellence is a big, scary word for a lot of people. So what we're going to do is we're going to chunk it into the three PS of excellence. And this becomes a heuristic that you can apply to every second of your life to make sure that you're either doing something that serves you or you're doing something that subtracts from your goals and there shall never again be a middle ground between those two poles.
Jeff Lerner (32:41):
The three P's are, is what I'm doing right now, productive of physical excellence, personal excellence, or professional excellence in my life. If yes, keep doing it. Do more of it. If no, stop doing it, do something that is. Period at the end. Do that now you'll have a better life a year from now. You can thank me later. I didn't even try to sell you anything. And again, it took me probably 200 conversations before I converged around that core idea. But once I had it, then I could start riffing in variations on a theme from there. Every conversation I've had since then, maybe two and a half years ago, it's been a variation on that same beam. And now I have people posting, "Yo, yo, my three Ps [inaudible 00:33:22]. I worked out this morning. I took my daughter out for lunch and I made $4,500 in my online business." Three Ps, woo-hoo. It just created a rallying cry around that concept. But without that, you're just noise.
On this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall continues his conversation with Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s newest division, Flight School. Together they talk about why it is that of the four sales outcomes — Yes, No, Not me, or Not now — the response that dominates is “Not now.” As Chris explains, “It’s the nature of life.” People are busy. Things come up. Priorities shift. But when a prospect says, “Not now,” what’s a sales rep to do? Push harder and try to squeeze his pitch into the conversation anyway? Or should he relax and bow to the prospect’s protestations that it’s a bad time to talk, by graciously saying, “No problem. I’ll give you a call next week.” It’s an unusual reaction in the high-pressure world of “Make that sale,” but this may be one of the keys to Cherryl’s success in her career: as Chris says, she handles the rigors of cold calling with grace.
It also takes grace to handle the frustration of a no-show. But Chris’s surprising reaction to a cancelled appointment is, “I heart no-shows! They’re my favorite thing in business!” A no-show, he says, makes the relationship more real, because now it’s less perfect. It creates a more-even footing for the next conversation, as well as an opening for a prospect to reveal an insight or two about his business as he explains the why behind his missed appointment. So, when a rep or AE is faced with a no-show and is able to relax and say, “Hey, I understand. I’ll call you back later so we can find a time that will work better for you,” then that improves what Cherryl calls the “trust-o-meter.” She has learned that being persistent with call-backs to “Not now’s” and “No shows” lets her prospects know that she believes in the potential value of what she is selling. And you can believe me when I say, you’re going to want to hear every minute of this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guys, “I Heart No-Shows!”
----more----
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Here is the complete transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists, and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business. (silence).
On this week's episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall continues his conversation with Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of Connect and Sell's newest division, Flight School. Together, they talk about why it is that of our four sales outcomes, yes, no, not me, or not now, the response that dominates is not now. As Chris explains, it's the nature of life. People are busy. Things come up. Priorities shift. But when a prospect says, "Not now," what's a sales rep to do, push harder and try to squeeze his pitch into the conversation anyway, or should he relax and bow to the prospect's protestations that it's a bad time to talk by graciously saying, "No problem. I'll give you a call next week"?
It's an unusual reaction in the high-pressure world of, "Make that sale," but this may be one of the keys to Cherryl's success in her career. As Chris says, she handles the rigors of cold calling with grace. It also takes grace to handle the frustration of a no-show. But Chris's surprising reaction to a canceled appointment is, "I heart no-shows. They're my favorite thing in business." A no-show, he says, makes the relationship more real, because now it's less perfect. It creates a more even footing for the next conversation, as well as an opening for a prospect to reveal an insider to about his business as he explains the why behind his missed appointment.
So when a rep or AE is faced with a no-show and is able to relax and say, "Hey, I understand. I'll call you back later so we can find a time that will work better for you," then that improves what Cherryl calls the trust-o-meter. She has learned that being persistent with callbacks to not nows and no-shows lets her prospects know that she believes in a potential value of what she is selling. You can believe me when I say you're going to want to hear every minute of this week's episode of Market Dominance Guys, I Heart No-Shows.
Cherryl Turner (02:46):
Well, I think of the way that my husband and I met. It was an ambush conversation. We were sitting next to each other, and it was that other moment, right? If he had pushed, "I've got to know that you want me," right at the very first conversation, I would've said, "There's the road. You can take a long walk on that one." But it's not. (laughing). That just kind of came to my head. I was like, "Oh, we can apply this to any part of our life," right? Which is true. It's the same with cold calls. It's an ambush conversation, and however you want to turn it, if you are a full cycle rep going after a targeted list or if you're trying to crack into a new market or if it's just high-volume cold calling, it applies across the board, because you always have to have initial first conversations, regardless if you're trying to continue to build relationships or if they don't know you from Adam.
So that is critical. So if that relaxation and that confidence, you take that on for them, they feel that over the phone and this exchange of emotion that you're having with this person. It allows them freedom to, "Okay," and they'll want to actually meet with you. It's okay if it takes two or three or four conversations to get there. I honestly believe that meeting will end up being more productive, because they already know you have their best interest at heart.
Chris Beall (04:10):
You were willing to call them again. I mean, face it.
Cherryl Turner (04:10):
Exactly. Yeah.
Chris Beall (04:15):
People like attention. They like somebody who cares enough about them. That first time that they don't attend the meeting, that could be just a little tiny test that's not ... You think about this. It's like, "Does somebody care enough?" I was watching a couple of mourning doves that were having a discussion this morning about whether they should be making mourning dove babies. He flew up on the roof, and that's kind of like, "Well, are you going to come up here or not?" (laughing).
Cherryl Turner (04:41):
That's awesome. (laughing).
Chris Beall (04:43):
It's such a basic thing. If it's so true for mourning doves, maybe it could be true for the rest of us. But yesterday I was having a nice chat with Pat Lynch, who is running sales enablement for LivePerson at the moment in global sales enablement. He was reminiscing with me about when he had come to connect in Saul's office in Denver and witnessed something. He stayed all day and watched people work, and I left so that I wouldn't inhibit him. He was doing work for CSO Insights, and so he was getting some chief sales officer insights by observing. When I came back from my going away and talking to customers, I asked him, "What'd you see?" He said, "Chris, I don't know how to tell you this. We've got to go in the conference room and shut the door."
We went in and shut the door, and he said, "See that guy right there?" I said, "Yeah, that's Jordan Dufour." He goes, "He's the inventor of 27 Seconds. He's a famous dude." He said, "He did something I've never seen before. A CEO that he got on the phone said, 'Hey, I'm busy. I've got to go into a meeting right now.' Instead of trying to get more out of him, he just said, 'Oh, that's great. Okay. I'll call you next week. I'll give you a shout on Tuesday.' Boom. He just moved on. I went and asked him, 'Why? Why didn't you try to get a meeting with him? You had a CEO.' He said, 'Well, what do you mean? I'll talk to him next week. I have ConnectAndSell.'" That was when Pat said, "I didn't realize that a mechanical change of just being able to talk to 10 times more people would result in an emotional change, where the rep is relaxing." He said, "And I see it around your office. Then it creates a cultural change." That's the one everybody's trying to get to.
Cherryl Turner (06:23):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (06:25):
So here you are, doing it, but I still don't think we've solved this problem. Now, I'm wondering, is it possible that the SDR as a separate role has a built-in problem that people aren't realizing, which is that as an AE, as a full cycle rep, as the chief development officer of ConnectAndSell's Flight School division, you are free to do anything you want? You can set those meetings, and if they don't happen, you don't have any trouble then, right? You just put them in your followup, and then you get on and make some more cold calls. What's the difference? You don't care when you're cold calling.
But if you were two people, one of whom is serving the other with meetings, and it's not a pure relationship, because you can have an easy peer relationship with yourself, right? Then when you set a meeting with your counterpart and it doesn't happen that they get to point the finger at you and say, "You're setting meetings that are not happening. You better improve the show rate." Yet, to improve the show rate, they have to sell after the close, which is the one thing we tell salespeople never to do. Have we built in a problem that leadership has got to address one way or another to make the SDR, BDR thing work, given that they could be converting at 75% like you and Scott Webb? In fact, they're converting at 3%. Maybe it's because they've been told, "Don't convert." Maybe we don't know we're telling them this, but we're saying, "Don't convert unless it's perfect," and nothing's perfect. Is that possible?
Cherryl Turner (07:57):
That's just it, right? We think it's got to be a perfect scenario. It's got to be a perfect fit. What is intriguing is I've been on both sides of that table. In fact, the majority of my career, until I came over to you, was the SDR, right? So as as a consultant and partner of yours, I've worked for PE firms, and I've worked in every industry you can imagine, helping either to build pipeline or help them develop, sales development, or get a process in place, et cetera. Many times, I would have to prove the process, to show them, "This can scale. This does work," et cetera.
In the beginning of my career, well, and even right before I came over, I would support executives or CEOs themselves, and there was a little bit of pushback when I said, "You have to trust the process. They don't show up, then it's better, because you would have crammed something down their throat they weren't ready for. If they're worried about some other meeting they have to go to, they're not listening to you. That's not going to be a productive conversation. If they are squeezed, then you wait until it is a good time." So when you are armed with AI, that is what ConnectAndSell offers, you introduce a new level of efficiency for SDRs and BDRs.
I would also add to that, and this is where a lot of my passion comes from, but that's not taught. It's almost the BDR, SDR role as a pit stop to, "I've got to hurry up and learn this so I can go into marketing or I can go on somewhere else." Now, if that is someone's passion, that's one thing. But I didn't realize that BDR, I could create a career or build a career around this, and I have. It's been an amazing journey, an absolutely amazing journey. It's been constant friction, because that's what we're told. We're told it can't work if we don't have them 100% qualified, and that is never the case. Like you said, Chris, nothing is ever 100%, and the prospect is never going to be 100%. No one is ever an end all to everything, because that's not the way life is.
So if we can take that fear and allow reps to say, "You know what? I had a good conversation with them. I expressed a certain amount of curiosity and trust enough that they will show up eventually. So just let me call them back, AE, sales director. Let me call them back. I'll put them back in my list, and we will get them back on the phone," because guess what? They answered the phone the first time. They will a second or third or fourth or fifth time, right? It shows them, "I am persistent, because I do believe in the potential value of this meeting for you, human being." That is the tone, and that's the approach. They feel that. If sales leadership allows, you aren't changing the conversation, Chris, because this is something that has been kind of bugging me throughout my career, because I always see it. Regardless if it was a new company I was helping, it's like rinse and repeat. You're like, "Oh, here we go again."
That's because you won't know that until you have probably several conversations with them, because that's also a process. They're not going to divulge everything on the first discovery meeting. I hope you have more conversations on this as far as leadership, allowing SDRs to set meetings in that approach. If they do have something like ... Actually, there is nothing else like [inaudible 00:11:31], so there is ConnectAndSell. That's it, because it is different than ... We're not a dialer. It is unlike anything else.
What I love about Flight School is when you pair the two, the coaching with what Flight School does with ConnectAndSell, you're unstoppable, that relaxation, and you're able to focus on, "Hey, change this a little bit, and you'll see an uptick in interest." In fact, that's what Tony Crawford did to me the first time I was on. He was like, "Hey, I noticed ... Have you tried this? Here's this other point." I was like, "No, I hadn't even realized." He was like, "Hey, try this." I was like, "Okay," and it changed. It was awesome.
Chris Beall (12:09):
It's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing how the nuances of the conversation, the nuances of our mindset have profound effects on results. Now here's this new one I'll call it. I'll call it I heart no-shows.
Cherryl Turner (12:24):
(laughing). Right?
Chris Beall (12:26):
Right? I want the title of this episode to be I Heart No-Shows, because when you come right down to it, I mean, I do heart no-shows. I love them. I think I might've told this story on this show before, where I was walking down the street with my fiance, and she's a much bigger deal in sales than I am. So I get on with somebody from a big hotel chain, and we have a scheduled meeting with three people from that company. That's a nice thing for ConnectAndSell, And I still sell. I suppose people probably know this, but we finance our company by selling. I realize it's a bizarre notion in Silicon Valley, but that's how we do it. We kind of do it by having the folks at the top sell without taking commissions, because if I took a commission, by the way, I'd act just like everybody else. I'd want every deal. So I just can relax, no commission, just sell.
But anyways, a pretty important-sounding meeting. I got on with Marjorie, who was the person who was from the other side who was going to put this together. She said, "Oh, Chris, I'm so sorry. Both of the other participants just had something come up." I said, "Fantastic. I'll shoot you an email, and we can get something else on the books when it's convenient for all three of you. Thanks so much for letting me know right now. We would have figured it out eventually, but I really, really appreciate it."
She kind of changed her tone and said, "Oh, well, do you want to talk a little bit right now?" I said, "We could, but I really think this is something where we should all explore together. So let's just get something where all three of us are on. That'll be great." I hung up, and Helen turns to me. She says, "Oh, a no-show. That must have been disappointing." I said, "Are you kidding? It's my favorite thing in business," not just in sales. It is my very, very favorite thing in business, is a no-show, because in a funny way, it just makes the relationship more real, because it's less perfect.
Cherryl Turner (14:31):
What's interesting is when you approach that, Chris, what you just said, some people call that ... I was thinking through this, actually, over the last week or so. I was like, "What is it about Scott? What is it?" James Johnson's also very good at this, listening to him. I don't want to get in trouble with me dropping his name in this, but what I love about it, that it's a mindset of abundance or scarcity, and I think that's where the problem is with senior leadership in sales. What is sad is I think many could-be awesome sales potentials are lost because they think, "If this is the grind I have to consistently go through, why bother?"
I was up against a lot. I had managers that didn't leave until ... Oh my gosh. I have stories beyond stories. But what I held true to was there is something here. So gratefully, I had kind of the personality to stick through it and to be open to adjusting and learning and pivoting. I have been nothing but blessed with that, but it's consistent friction of this mindset that leadership tends to have that if it's not qualified, doesn't count. Then that puts so much pressure on the rep, and you don't find out the talent you have because of that mindset. Organic growth goes out the window. You could have just lost probably the best thing that ever happened to your sales department if we continue to maintain this attitude, and I hope this does end up changing the conversation in the industry, because it is important. It's still constantly out there, right?
You see it on LinkedIn. You see it everywhere, but it really changes the trajectory of the conversation and the relationship, and I would dare say that it improves the trust-o-meter I mean tenfold, if not more, when the rep is able to relax and say, "It will fall into a time when it does work for them," because companies are constantly in and out of looking for something, right? "This didn't work. There's got to be a better way." Well, that's why you're calling them, right? They don't know.
What is interesting is a lot of people, especially prospects, come to the table thinking the meeting is going to be about one thing, right? They've already categorized you prematurely. But what I love is, I mean, the meetings we've had with the Flight ... "This is nothing like what I thought it'd be." That's fantastic. I'm glad that that's the case, right? It wasn't a death by PowerPoint. In fact, I had to like, "Oh, do you have something to show?" I was like, "No, we're just going to talk. I just want to find out what you're doing, what's important to you and important to continue talking. We will." She said, "Oh, okay." Then what's crazy is this isn't rocket science. We have been conditioned to not act like humans in sales, especially in business development.
Cherryl Turner (19:11):
I would hope that there's more women out there also, Chris, as a woman, right? I hope there's more out, because I think we also have a certain touch that brings, I think, a refreshing approach to sales also. Anyway, it really is fascinating, to be honest. So with this approach that we were talking about, Chris, it's kind of an excavator. You put the claw in the ground. You goop it up, and you put it through the hopper, right? Whatever crunches through. If they show up, great. If they don't, that's all right. You put it back in the hopper, and eventually, it will stick. Eventually, it will run into a time that's good for them. That's what allows a rep to relax.
Chris Beall (19:47):
Yeah, and what I love about that analogy is the alternative is ... This is, I think, the modern sales stack. We arm the reps with all this tools and all this technology.
Cherryl Turner (19:59):
Oh, I know.
Chris Beall (19:59):
Then when they get up there to the point where they're going to have that big claw come down and take a scoop, they take the scoop, and then they shut the machine off and get their gold pan out. They go through, swirling and looking for a nugget and looking for a nugget. Sure enough, only 3% are nuggets, and the rest of it's bad. It's just ore. That's the nature of the beast, whereas they could have just said, "Look, I don't know what might be right or wrong. This is the only ore we've got right now, so I'm going to scoop it up. I'm going to put it in the crusher. I'm going to let it go through its process, and whatever comes out the other end, that's great. Whatever doesn't, I'm going to process it again"-
Cherryl Turner (20:40):
Exactly.
Chris Beall (20:41):
... "because I've got this crusher here, and it can just crush," right? When I hear people talk about crushing their number, I think, "Well, I don't think you're crushing your number. I think you're panning for the occasional little gold nugget, hoping that you can run with it over to somebody and say, 'I got this gold nugget here,'" whereas it's not the nuggets that make the business. It's what's in the ore overall and your ability to process it. So it's so interesting to me that you talk about being human. In a way, it's being human that lets us make a sales machine.
Cherryl Turner (21:18):
Yeah. It really is mind-blowing. I mean, it's not and it is at the same time, right? You're like ... (laughing).
Chris Beall (21:19):
(laughing). It's totally unsurprising and totally mind-blowing.
Cherryl Turner (21:26):
Right. It's crazy how much we complicate this, right? We do. But why? What I love about this mindset of abundance with just let whatever falls through fall through, that is a mindset of abundance. That is belief, going back to the Forbes podcast, right? It is true when he said it's this inner belief that, "You know what? Just let it fall where it falls." Whatever falls off, just put it back in, and it will get polished enough to where it will be the right time. It will stick, and you'll have a great conversation when that happens. Yes. It really is amazing.
Chris Beall (22:06):
Yeah. We say sales conversations have four outcomes, yes, no, not me, not now. We say not now dominates because of the nature of life. When we look at we're selling a meeting, not now should dominate that also. So if not now dominates, then let's float the question of when, rather than insisting that when be nailed down, and then let's provide ourselves with something else to do whenever there's a meeting that is a no-show. I think that might be the other magic of ConnectAndSell. So a meeting is a no-show, I know you always do the same thing. Well, you don't do one thing. You don't complain. You do another thing. You fire up your followup list, and you have that person on it and other people. You talk to them or whoever, and you make good use of that time.
So I think the other thing is in the abundant sense, people who are selling, they feel like, "I set aside time for the meeting, and now it's a no-show." Well, first of all, they probably over-researched for it. So for that 15-minute meeting, they probably researched 30 minutes, and then when the meeting doesn't happen, it's like, "Oh, I wasted that research, because I won't remember it." Well, in that case, maybe just don't do the research, and be prepared to hold an honest discovery conversation and let somebody tell you what they know.
Chris Beall (23:26):
But then the other part is and then when the no-show is a no-show, how can you heart no-shows if you don't have anything to do when they no-show and you want to be efficient? Well, the answer is just push the button and talk to somebody else. You are the constrained resource. You are always the constrained resource. So just go ahead to the resource unconstrainer, which is this thing called ConnectAndSell, and push the button and have some more conversations, because they're moving the ball forward, too, somehow. You just don't know exactly where or when.
Cherryl Turner (23:58):
I mean, thinking over, just listening to your podcast with you and Corey and some of the brilliant minds you've had on so far, you always talk about market dominance, right? So this idea of I heart no-shows, that is what enables also the undercurrent of what helps you dominate your market, because if you're not in consistent motion, that's what allows the consistent motion, right? When you require reps to, "You've got to make sure it's way past the line before you can call it qualified or you can count this meeting," or whatever, mentally, it is not for the faint of heart, right? Cold calling never has been. But when you introduce a mindset of abundance and allow it to you, "You know what? Did well, do your best, it will fall into when it's time that's good for them."
That is the undercurrent that enables market dominance, is that coupled, right, with ConnectAndSell and Flight School, because you're able to adjust and pivot in real time and become better as a human being, right? Talking to another human being and making those connections, improving people's lives, right? With what you do offer. There's a lot of awesome that's out there in the market. We just get in our own way, because we feel like it's got to look a certain way or the conversation has to be exactly a certain way. That's not the case.
Chris Beall (25:30):
Oddly enough, there's the other great irony, right? You need a great script in order to relax enough to be a human.
Cherryl Turner (25:37):
Yes. (laughing).
Chris Beall (25:39):
Isn't that funny? I mean, some people equate scripts with being a robot. I take the opposite point of view, which is the script liberates you to be yourself.
Cherryl Turner (25:48):
Yes. I still have mine. Just like Matt Forbes was saying, "Oh, my wife laughs at me," my husband does, too. So it's right there, and when I'm at the park with my kid, I have it with me. It does liberate you. It takes it to a whole new level. You feel it as a rep, and that's what fuels you, because you begin. It just takes you to a whole new realm, I would say. It really is an awesome place to be when you can get to that point.
Chris Beall (26:16):
Yeah, and the script, I think, is to the rep. I've always said the script is the surfboard and the rep's voice is the surfer. But there's another analogy, which is the script is the checklist for the pilot. Without the checklist, you'd be one worried pilot, especially if you had people onboard that airplane, including yourself. So the checklist doesn't turn the pilot into a robot. It frees the pilot up to do the human stuff that's really important, which might include reassuring the passengers that the airplane does go up and fly and come down, Flight School style, and it comes down in a controlled way and you can handle the turbulence and all that. But it's also like if you want to bring your complete self to a situation, you need to not be inventing your response to the known parts of the situation as you go along. That's kind of wild, right? It'd be kind of like saying, "Here's how I drive my car. I get in, and I have no idea what I do next, because I just want to be so expressive."
Cherryl Turner (27:15):
(laughing).
Chris Beall (27:15):
But, I mean, it doesn't make any sense. It's an order of operations. It's a script. I get in. I close the door. I put on my seatbelt. I put the key in ... This car that I drive, you still put a key in a slot. I know for a lot of people, this is odd. It's a Subaru that can hold 24 cases of wine, so it's really, really a good car. Check the handbrake, and you've done your walk-around. Make sure there's no children behind the car, or make sure you live in a place where there aren't any. If you do these things, you don't just go, "Oh, I just don't feel like a very human driver, because I do things in a certain order and I know about it in advance." It's just allowing you to take the predictable parts and turn those into something that you don't have to worry about.
I think that's what a script does, is it reduces our worry level about what we're going to say next and lets us then respond appropriately in tone of voice, in cadence, and in responding. When somebody says, "Well, Cherryl, tell me more," you need to be in a pretty special place to say, "We've learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this isn't a fair setting to talk about something this important. I'm a morning person. Are you? How's your Wednesday?" That takes real stance, right? The surfboard has just been chomped on by the shark, and you've got to have some real balance to do something about that, other than just fall in the water and enjoy your relationship with the shark.
Cherryl Turner (28:49):
Splashing all around, trying to ... (laughing). Yeah.
Chris Beall (28:51):
Yeah, which tends to be what happens. So, well, I tell you what. I have a funny feeling about this episode. I think you've said nine things during this episode. Each one of the nine things could be a chapter in a book on how to handle the rigors and handle them with grace that come with cold calling, the most important thing that we do in business. I know some people are saying still cold calling shouldn't exist, right? Well, in a competitive world, having first conversations that build trust is probably going to be around for a while, because competitively, it's superior to waiting. It's the time game, just played the other way around. So I just want to thank you for coming on. I know that this is not your thing. I can tell you're fabulous. You have no idea how good you really are. So it's just [crosstalk 00:29:46].
Cherryl Turner (29:45):
Oh, thanks, Chris. I would like to add one more thing, Chris. I've been brainstorming in real time. You asked what made the difference, right? I have been fortunate enough to have leadership, senior leadership, mostly CEOs, that have believed in me enough to allow me to do my thing when it came to building pipeline. That built my confidence, and when I had a CEO that was in Belgium and he ran a company that he built from the ground up, digital asset management, and I was the first introduction of outbound sales development, completely foreign to this company. The way that he led, he taught belief in what they sold. I've been fortunate enough that the CEO that brought me on for this company also ran his leadership that way, and I've learned from you the same.
So I've been fortunate enough to rally around like-minded mindset of abundance, right, leadership that taught that way. When leadership begins to think that way and believe in their SDRs, we will begin to see a shift in market dominance as we know it. It really is. So I feel nothing but blessed with the networks, the connections I've made throughout my career. Just love and enjoy, soak everything in in learning from them, right? They all have something to offer. That really is something. So I think when we can allow ourselves to be taught and to teach and believe in each other within sales organizations, we can begin to relax and begin to dominate our markets. It will make a difference.
Chris Beall (31:29):
I love it. So Cherryl, I want people to know how to get a hold of you, both selfishly, because you're selling something that I hold near and dear to my heart, which is Flight School. I actually think Flight School is the most transformative product I've ever been associated with in a fairly long career of transformative products. I thought ConnectAndSell was special. I still do. I thought the Breakthrough Script was special as a form of technology. You're one of the very first people ever to have heard it in the wild. You were exposed to the wild-type virus called the Breakthrough Script years ago. In fact, I was with you in one place in Utah when James Townson and team unleashed the Breakthrough Script somewhere else and got a 15 times improvement in conversation or meetings per day. But I actually think Flight School is maybe more special than anything.
Admittedly, as you and I both know, it rests on ConnectAndSell, and it rests most easily on the Breakthrough Script. That's not required, but it's something that just kind of makes it easier. Breakthrough Script is plenty good enough to run a Flight School, I guess is how I would put it.
But if folks want to get a hold of you, I can tell them how to do that. Cherryl, C-H-E-R-R-Y-L. See the two R's? That's because she's special. 40 miles south of here, we'd be rolling those R's, and we'd call you Cherryl. Cherryl Turner, T-U-R-N-E-R, because she will turn your entire world around. If you want to explore Flight School, she'll talk to you, even if you're a smaller company, but she might pass you off to somebody else. Her job is to actually help the biggest companies in the world embrace something that's a little bit hard because of change management, which is going 10 times faster and being 10 times more effective.
But if somebody wants to experience 100X, 100X doesn't come along every day of the week, and it'll sound like something else entirely. You'll come to the meeting, and you'll say, "This isn't what I expected," just like Cheryl said, but reach out to her, cheryl.turner@connectandsell.com. I'm sure on LinkedIn, she's find-able also. Failing all that, I think people watching this know how to get ahold of me. I'm Chris Beall, and I'm just really tickled to be hosting Market Dominance Guys today with Cherryl Turner. Thanks so much, Cherryl.
Cherryl Turner (33:56):
Thank you, Chris. It's an honor. Appreciate it.
In this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, Chris Beall conducts a solo interview with Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s new Flight School Division. In the first episode of this two-part conversation, Cherryl relays to Chris how she got started in cold calling and about the important experiences she had talking with prospects — experiences that helped shape how she approaches cold calls and conducts meeting-setting conversations today.
As an example, Cherryl recounts a pivotal moment during a call with a prospect, in which she had the impulse to stop talking and just listen — instead of pushing to make the sale — and how the whole tone of the conversation warmed up after that. This was a career changer for her! Chris alludes to this when he describes Cherryl, touting her practice of conversing with each prospect as a peer and the way she is constantly looking to understand and help them. Feel free to borrow everything you’ll learn in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, as Cherryl Turner shares “The Secret of Her Success.”
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About Our Guest Cherryl
Turner is Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s new Flight School Division, a four-session, cold-call conversation training program for sale reps. Previously founder and CEO of BDPro Solutions, Cherryl’s extensive expertise encompasses sales and business development.
Here is the full transcript from this episode:
Announcer (00:06):
Welcome to another episode with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high stakes world of building a startup company. We explore in the cookbooks, guidebooks the magic beans needed to grow your business. In this week's Market Dominance Guys episode, Chris Beall conducts a solo interview with Cherryl Turner, chief development officer of ConnectAndSell's new Flight School Division.
In the first episode of this two-part conversation, Cherryl relays to Chris how she got started in cold-calling and about the important experiences she had talking with prospects. Experiences that helped shape how she approaches cold calls and conducts meeting-setting conversations today. As an example, Cherryl recounts a pivotal moment during a call with a prospect, in which she had the impulse to stop talking and just listen, instead of pushing to make the sale, and how the whole tone of the conversation warmed up after that.
This was a career changer for her. Chris alludes to this when he describes Cherryl, touting her practice of conversing with each prospect as a peer, and the way she is constantly looking to understand and help them. Feel free to borrow everything you'll learn in this week's Market Dominance Guys episode as Cherryl Turner shares the secret of her success.
Chris Beall (01:41):
Hey everybody, this is Chris Beall, and I am actually going to be the interviewer on Market Dominance Guys today. Corey Frank probably was available, maybe not. I don't know. He's a busy guy off there running Youngblood Works and doing all manner of other things. I just thought today, a conversation that I was having earlier in the day with Cherryl Turner was worth expanding on for this audience.
I think as everybody knows, Market Dominance Guys is all about the nuts and bolts of dominating markets and doing so with what we call a conversation-first approach. Cherryl has been a master of the conversation-first approach to dominate everything as far as I've known. For a number of years before I met her, she did that kind of stuff for a number of other companies, including InsideSales.com, now XANT.
We stumbled across each other, I would say, at what we call a test drive of ConnectAndSell where she was participating in the test drive, rather skeptically I would say. She can maybe tell us a little bit about that. It didn't take very long for us to realize that we were kindred spirits and believed the same kind of stuff. One thing led to another, and just recently, very recently, five weeks ago, she joined ConnectAndSell as our chief development officer for our Flight School Division.
We're taking our world-famous Flight School out into the world as a standalone product. Cherryl is our head of sales for that and head of marketing and head of thinking things up and making the scripts actually work, and all sorts of things. She's kind enough to bring me into an occasional meeting and I yap a little bit. I'm Chris Beall, not Corey Frank. I'd like to introduce you to Cherryl Turner. Cherryl, welcome to the show.
Cherryl Turner (03:44):
Thank you, Chris. Always a pleasure.
Chris Beall (03:46):
It's truly an honor to have the real deal on this program. Corey and I could be accused of a number of things, but I don't think either one of us is going to be considered the real deal when it comes to cold-calling. We just have reputations. I'm going to guess that you have cold-called somebody on an average of more than, oh, I don't know, 20 times a day for each day, except for weekends and time off with family and so forth.
I don't know if you do that, in the last, what? Five, six, seven years? Maybe beyond that. How did you get into cold-calling? Why are you attracted to something that is so repulsive to so many people?
Cherryl Turner (04:27):
It's a fascinating story actually, Chris. I really started my career ... You mentioned InsideSales.com. I was just an entry-level BD. In fact, when they hired me, when I got interviewed, I didn't even know what a CRM was. I came from Vivint, selling alarm systems to B2C markets. What I did know about myself ... I wasn't concerned that I didn't know what a CRM was, or didn't know I need to know what a CRM was, but I did know who I was. So I always enjoyed proving the impossible possible.
That's just something that runs through my blood. That is what I sold what was going to be my boss. I ended up blowing 'out of the market', or in our department. Not only that, but spearheading new companies that InsideSales.com ended up acquiring, even though none of the sales reps really knew what they were about, so I did my own research and just hitting 250/300 quota.
Chris Beall (05:28):
That's interesting. I hadn't heard this story about you spearheading the go-to-market thrust and the growth trajectory of new acquisitions. I mean, that's really hard to do. Did you have to learn everything about their product before you were capable of setting meetings to sell their product?
Cherryl Turner (05:45):
No. I actually learned with each conversation. After that, I almost was ... I wasn't editing myself on calls, but as I was listening to people and learning about what was important to them, I went back and did research on my own time, because I wanted to talk to as many of these people as possible. Then I adjusted to what and learned as I went. I would not say I was an expert per se. I did do my due diligence and learned as much as I could about the company that they had acquired.
Then I even had senior leadership come to me, including ... I don't know if I can name-drop, but Jim Steele, they had brought Jim Steele in. He said, "What are you doing? Are you doing this?" It ended up being their leading product because of what I was able to create for the company. It started with a belief. They gave us a one-pager on it, and the little I did know, I found it fascinating. I was like, "Well, this is interesting. This is new. What does this little company do?"
What they did was pretty unique and interesting to me. I believed in what I learned of them at that point and then I brought that to the conversations when I was talking with people, and then pivoting and learning as I was going through that. The more conversations I had, the more I fell in love with it, because I realized at the end of the day, people want to be successful and they're still human beings, right?
They still have insecurities. They still have things that they have to accomplish and look good in their roles. We're all the same at the end of the day. It was fascinating to be a part of that. That's I think the passion that ran through my veins, if you will.
Chris Beall (07:34):
Oh, that's fascinating. As you said, we're all the same. I've always told people when I talk about you, "Cherryl sees herself as an equal of everybody on earth. So when she's talking to somebody, she's always talking as a peer looking to help them and to understand them." I think that's really remarkable. I think most salespeople, all of us in fact, have got some degree of, "Well, I'm the supplicant. I'm coming. I'm asking you to do something for me."
Because after all the salesperson's setup, so to speak, is, "If everything goes well, eventually we get a deal. I make quota and I get commission. Therefore, you're doing things for me." How did you come to this point of view? This is a really different point of view than I run into. You said you came right out of alarm system sales. Was that door to door, by the way, or was that by the phone or what?
Cherryl Turner (08:26):
No. It was just in Provo, the Vivint down in Provo, just call it part of the outside sales department there, just an entry-level team. Yeah. I started there and not really talking to people, but when I got to InsideSales, that's really where my career began to take shape, if you will. Talking with these entrepreneurs, these CEOs. I was calling in to senior leadership, and I really enjoyed talking to senior leadership.
I came from a world that not many understand. They're always on. Their brain is always on, "How can I tweak this or improve that in my business? How can I create organic growth and what have you?" I always love learning from those people. When I was at InsideSales, I think the shift, Chris, to your question happened, I was calling it. It was just high volume calling. People that downloaded whitepapers or looked at something on our website or what have you.
The initial entry was, "Hey, we noticed you had downloaded a whitepaper. Just calling to follow up on that. Did you get a chance to read that? I'm interested in what's going on in your world." I don't remember her last name. I don't remember the name of the company, but her name was Karen, and she was the CEO of this company. They were about mid-level actually, I do remember that.
For the first time, and I'd probably been in about three weeks in, I had the most amazing conversation with this woman because something inside of me clicked and said, "Just stop and listen." I had an agenda. I had to make quota. I had to, "Hey, yeah, let's get you over to a hot lead, a hot transfer." Right? I was push, push, push. We had just barely acquired this other company so I was still in this other position, this entry-level BD position.
Karen, when I was talking with her, it was the longest conversation. I think we ended up talking 15 minutes or so, which is almost taboo. You don't want to be on the phone that long. I said, "You know, Karen." I said, "After listening to what you've told me." I said, "I don't believe that this other core product of this company fits you, but we just recently acquired a new company and this is what they do."
What I have learned that they do, right? We just acquired them. I explained this to her. I said, "Do you think that may be beneficial to you just based on what you told me?" Immediately her tone changed. She wasn't sounding desperate, but she was frustrated and I could sense that in her voice. I took the insecurity that she was ... Not insecurity, but the uncertainty, if you will.
I said, "Here's something that might possibly help you. I don't know if it will or not, but here's some information. We can have a conversation." She said, "Actually, that does intrigue me." It was a hot transfer, but what is interesting, as a sales rep, full cycle sales rep, didn't even know how to pitch it. I was like, "Just listen to her." I'm like, "We just acquired this company." That is the switch.
That was the switch that I realized these CEOs were all the same, essentially. Also, something interesting is I always cared about who I was talking with, because we are human and it does matter. End of this big blue worry parent, as you like to say, Chris, it does matter. That's how I really started.
Chris Beall (11:58):
Well, that's fascinating. It resonates with me as a door-to-door salesperson who had to make some money quickly back in the day. I realized very quickly in that process, on about door three or four, nobody was going to buy anything from me. They opened the door into the desert heat in Arizona, but maybe I could do something for them. Maybe we could just have a very short human conversation, very short because the door was open and you know, in Arizona, we're talking five bucks a minute when your door is open.
The air conditioning pumping out trying to cool off the entire desert. I think that transition is the transition that lets people go from okay and somewhat unsatisfied as salespeople, to it being, I wouldn't say effortless, but in a way it is. Like, what's the effort that goes into talking? Not much. But the effort that goes into listening could be substantial and maintaining that listening posture, right?
I mean, can you think back to any deals where you heard something during a conversation? This might be impossible by the way because I can't remember these myself, but put me on the spot a little bit. Can you think of any situation where you were talking to somebody and you suddenly realized that you hadn't quite listened to them? Then it's like, "Hang on a second."
You ask them a question or you replay it in your mind and end up going somewhere that turns out to be relatively important for them and maybe good for your company. Is that an experience you've had, or is that something that you've been such a good listener from the get-go you don't trip up like that?
Cherryl Turner (13:43):
Right. No. We always trip up. I think becoming good in sales is not an episodic event. It's always a journey. I don't care how seasoned you are. If you're always open to improving, it shines through in your approach and your tone with them because now you care. To answer your question, if I had a quarter for every time that I experienced that, that's always going on. We're human. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to rush through it.
We're going to talk too fast. I flap my lips sometimes too much, you know? That's okay though. Before my conversation with Karen, I was, I think focused ... There was this pressure. She downloaded the whitepaper. This person downloaded this. Did you get it over? Did you get a totally qualified lead, right? Or whatever you want to call it. Every company calls it different. It was worry that I've got to get this person through so that I can meet quota.
When you remind shifts, it all falls into place because that comes through. You take the uncertainty that they're feeling and you eat it yourself as a rep. You're not concerned even if they show up to the meeting, because when you're empowered ... And I'm going to go to ConnectAndSell, because before coming on with you, Chris, I was a partner of yours and brought it into many companies because I saw the power of it and was a believer.
When you are empowered and not have to worry about, "Am I going to get this person back on the phone?" Well, the answer is yes, you will. That concern and that pressure is taken away so you can actually focus on listening. You can focus on improving the conversation. Getting those tidbits of information. They need to hear enough to want to accept a meeting with you. If they can't, nine times out of 10, it's not because they don't like you.
It has nothing to do with you. It really has nothing to do with you. It has to do everything with them and everyone is busy, but there's always time when they can make time and that concern disappears. There are several times where I edited in real time and I blew it so many times, and still do sometimes, but that's okay because you learn from those. Because I'm constantly listening to calls. I was listening to Scott Webb this morning and his team.
I was listening to James Townsend and Donny. Donny Crawford, the Yoda of Flight School and Matthew Forbes. I took some tidbits from him actually in my redirects from my script. I love learning from my peers. I love learning from those who are excellent in doing certain things in their approach.
Chris Beall (18:28):
It's interesting right there, so when I called you today, I called you back. You dialed me and it was a very short call and it rang once and then you weren't there. I was actually in a meeting doing something to do with something completely different. It had nothing to do with sales and everything to do with how systems worked and this and that. Then when I called you back, in the background I could hear someone talking.
I thought, "Oh, how interesting? It doesn't sound like somebody that I know in Cherryl's house." You eventually learn many of the voices over time. You were listening to calls from somebody that you knew was doing something different. I know you must have seen the numbers. This is somebody who is converting conversations to meeting at about a three out of four pace.
Frankly, he feels like that's not enough. I know that he feels that's not enough, that he thinks [crosstalk 00:19:25].
Cherryl Turner (19:25):
[crosstalk 00:19:25] I know [crosstalk 00:19:25] feel.
Chris Beall (19:27):
[inaudible 00:19:27]. Yeah. A hundred percent, right? You were listening and you hit the pause button and we talked about actually what was going on in those conversations. The reason I wanted to have you on today is that we had Matt Forbes on recently. Matt was talking about the power of belief and what happened to him inside and what happened to his results as a result of that transformation inside of himself.
When he finally, I'll say crossed the chasm from uncertainty and self-interest, to belief in the potential value of the meeting that he was offering for this human being that he was talking with, regardless of how that meeting might go, what might happen or not happen as a result. He described that in a pretty compelling way. Scott Webb, the guy you were listening to, I got a call from him once that said, "I'm going to try something. I think there's a mindset shift that will make a big difference."
Folks, anybody listening to this, Scott Webb is not just some guy walking down the street. I mean, he's a chief development officer of a multi-billion dollar insurance brokerage. Number four in the world. I would predict soon to be number three, then two, then one, on organic growth alone. God knows what'll happen when the inorganic power of the organic growth starts to get whipped up.
He is personally using ConnectAndSell and leading his team through Flight School, which is what Cherryl sells. He's doing blitz and coach stuff. We help. I don't know why we help, because he's so good. I think we're learning from him, not the other way around, but what was it about what Scott was doing that made you want to listen to him? Then, have you tried any of it? Because it's kind of crazy stuff.
If you really think about this mindset shift of insisting that someone take the meeting for their own good, it seems to have these vast implications, especially if you have the power of connection, which does one thing really, really well. It gets people on the phone, especially people you've talked with before, because, hey you know they answer the phone. That's why they're in your follow-up list. Tell me that story. How's that gone?
Cherryl Turner (21:45):
Yeah. This transition has happened I think just in the last week, kind of the same thing that happened with Forbes, which by the way, I love that podcast because I think I've listened to it like two or three times now, but it's true, everything he'd said. The approach that Scott had ... And he's teaching his team, and you can tell the transition over time too. He's not overly concerned if it's a hundred percent written in blood, "I'm going to show up to this meeting."
It is an insistence that, "We'll find a time. I'm going to shoot this out to you. If it works, great. If not, we'll move it around. I'm not concerned necessarily if this is a slam dunk or not. If you show up, great. I know the importance of this meeting." That comes through in his tone. That's what Flight School does. It really teaches us the belief in the breakthrough you're offering these people you're talking with.
That has to be present, but he says, "Look, okay, we'll just send you out something and [inaudible 00:22:53]." People are like, "Uh, sure." This has happened a couple of times and I was like, "Wow, that's fascinating." They didn't say, "Oh, yes, yes, yes. I'm definitely going to be there." I think sometime ... Actually not sometimes. Most often in order for it to be qualified, we've got to make sure that there's, "Okay. You're not going to be anywhere else, right? You're going to show up to this meeting if I send you an invite, right? Okay. Okay. Perfect. Okay. I can count them."
It's a shootover. "If it works, great. If it doesn't, I know I can put you back in ConnectAndSell and I will get ahold of you and we will find a time that ends up working out. Whether that is two, three, four, five times conversations later, we need to reschedule, great. If not, that's okay." First time works out, great. If not ... And that actually feeds your passion because you realize that's how a lot of people were.
They're like, "Okay." A lot of people aren't in front of the calendar. Actually, no, I'm not. I'm in a meeting or I'm stepping out or I'm walking with my dog. I do cold calls when I take my son to the park during the day, right? [crosstalk 00:24:00].
Chris Beall (23:59):
How do you do that? Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait. You can't cold-call [crosstalk 00:24:03]-
Cherryl Turner (24:03):
This is life, Chris.
Chris Beall (24:05):
... you're carrying your computer around and you got a phone and then when your son needs something, what do you do? Throw it all up in the air? How do you do that? That's craziness.
Cherryl Turner (24:15):
It's actually awesome. It has changed my life in several ... Just ... It's amazing. No, it's the ConnectAndSell mobile app that you guys have. I was honored to be able to try it out. It's amazing. I still carry [Miskirk 00:24:36] with me. We have a park that's just about nine blocks from our house. We have several actually, and he is like a farm dog. He needs to be outside and run around or he's going to drive us all nuts.
It's in between, after my meetings and in between cold calls. In front of my computer like, "Hey, we need to go take a breather." I take my son on a stroller. He's got his little balance bike. He loves taking that thing out. We go to the park. While he's playing on the swing and slides and going, "Weee." I'm cold-calling. In fact, there was this ... I was doing that on Friday, last week, a couple of times.
There was another mom there with her kid and she started talking and when I started talking I said, "Hey, I need to let you know, I'm doing some cold calls right now for my work." She was like, "Oh really?" I was like, "Oh yeah, it's fabulous." She couldn't believe it. She was like, "I don't even know what that is, but okay." While we're talking, I put my hand out and then I talked to the person and then it was fabulous.
That is life. That is our new norm. We have people that still have to run a business. Now it's almost harder because kids think when you're home, "Oh, you're just at my disposal, or this is ..." Not even just kids. It's spouses or whatever, or family that just don't understand. Yes. That has been my new weapon of choice. It's been awesome. I really enjoy it. Yeah. I mean, going back to your initial question, Chris, the two meetings I had set this morning were like that.
It was, "Hey, I'll send an invite out for two weeks out. That works well for you, great. If not, just send me over some alternatives and we'll move it around." They're like, "Okay." I'm like, "Perfect. Moving on." It's awesome.
Chris Beall (26:33):
This brings to mind something. If you were working as a BDR, right? And you were setting appointments just for somebody else, this would be a hard technique because you would be putting appointments on your AE's calendar. Say it was paired up one to one, some people do that. You've got an account executive you're working with and you're doing the important part of the job, which is getting them in the meetings, getting the meetings and they're doing the easy part, which is holding discovery meetings and closing business, which anybody can do.
I actually believe that. Anyway, here you're doing that and now you're setting a bunch of interesting false positives. That is people who are not qualified, who would be showing up, at least you might've thought they weren't qualified if you quizzed them further and got the truth out of them, which I don't think actually happens in ambush calls, but we can pretend that it does.
Then you are also setting meetings, a lot of which are going to be no-shows, because in fact, they're going to be no-shows and declines and all sorts of stuff. Because your view is ... If I can encapsulate it correctly, you believe, now that you've listened to Scott Webb's approach, that operationalizing the relationship and going from if to when is the key to generating more relevant activity, which is thoughtful conversations, real conversations that go beyond the ambush.
Therefore, you're not letting the ambush conversation carry the load of qualification, or even of assurance of attending the meeting. You're just letting it open the door sufficiently that you go from an if, if we're going to meet, to a when, when we're going to meet. It reminds me of something I experienced this Saturday. Helen and I went down to a Mesquite furniture place, but it wasn't a furniture place. It's actually a mill.
They have these Mesquite logs. I don't know if anybody listening to this knows what a Mesquite tree is, but it's really hard, very heavy wood, really beautiful, full of all these swirly patterns. If you want a dining room table that you're going to treat as a piece of art in your house that you just bought here in Green Valley, Arizona, you definitely want a Mesquite table. I go with Helen down there, and here's what Valerie, the owner, did.
She asked whether we were seeing what we wanted or whatever. There's just pieces of wood around and then some examples of some finished tables. Helen said, "Well, yes, we're looking for a dining room table." She said, "Oh, okay." Then she flipped open her order book, took a pen and had it in hand and said, "So what are the rough dimensions?" It was not asking the qualifying question. After all, all dimensions of tables are qualified, right?
Big ones, little ones, and so forth. It wasn't the question. The question was kind of irrelevant. It was the fact that she went from, if we were going to buy a dining room table from her to, when are we going to do it? Let's get going on the process. She did it very gently and then went into a flash role a little bit later, as Oren Klaff would call it, about Mesquite.
By the time she was done describing where the Mesquite came from, how they caught it, what the challenges were, what the three kinds of table edges are, how they use five layers of tung oil in order to make the table last forever, why the butterflies and the joints in the table lasts longer than even the wood and the wood is incredible, what some of the considerations might be, how you might go about buying.
You might let us select the wood. You might come down and do it yourself. You might let us select it and you could come down and have a look. Some people like to see the project as it's being done. It'll take about this long, but these are the three considerations that would make it shorter and longer. By then, it's like we're in the hands of an expert and she's operationalized the relationship by having the equivalent of the calendar, in this case, the order book, in hand and she's writing in there.
When we were finished with the conversation, here's the piece of paper that looks suspiciously like an order for a table that doesn't cost much more than a small car. Here we are just going, "Huh." We ran into somebody else later, a different furniture store I won't mention and it's like, "Oh, yours are cheaper? Well, they must not be as good as Valerie's are." Right? Through this whole process, right? She did that and I was really impressed.
I discussed it with Helen afterwards. I said, "That is the opposite of selling after the close." I think when we're setting appointments, especially in a BDR role, our boss is telling us to sell after the close because the close is that little yes or the not not no. The not no, not not now, but not no, that allows you just to say, "I'll send you an appointment and if that doesn't work, we'll figure it out."
Cherryl Turner (31:45):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (31:46):
That it's a step on the journey instead of a, I gotcha. Do you sense the difference between what you do now? You're a full cycle rep setting appointments for yourself. Does that give you freedom to engage the way Scott Webb has figured out how to engage? Which by the way, everybody ... Okay. The average conversion rate among reps out there is 3% conversation to meeting.
Scott's is 72.4%, but that's only because he's dragging along an early tail of those that were only 25%. His current number is more in the 80s or 90s perhaps. If you think about that, any of you boss types watching, think an AE setting appointments for themselves, getting two appointments a day in about 30 minutes of work, two or three a day in 30 minutes of work, has this freedom to do this.
If you're managing BDRs and SDRs, maybe you should let them have that freedom too. How would you do that though? It's tricky, isn't it?
Cherryl Turner (32:52):
It is. I think because of the mindset of where most leadership is, right? There's always this pressure that is pushed up and down the chain as kind of .... You know those Chinese finger traps? That's what it feels like sometimes, because they've got to hit certain numbers and you're representing them. Then they've got to send that up the chain and then the chain isn't happy so they send that back down.
So there's this constant conflict that I've experienced in my own career with that. I knew there was a better way. I wasn't necessarily coached that way, but I knew there was a better way because we're not robots talking and doing business with robots. I don't care how much great AI a company has. We're not going to be replaced by robots. This fear that ... It's not, because we are human.
If this freedom ... In fact, before I even came on with you, Chris, over to sell Flight School, you and I had a conversation because I was talking about this other company I was wanting to bring in on to ConnectAndSell. There's this freedom that almost empowers you almost like a sense of liberation that, "Now I can relax and do what I do well, which is selling." Most reps that are in a position, they do.
They are good at selling. They just are awkward with the first conversation and they can't get out of their own way if they can't get past that. If I'm okay to show you, prospect, that we will find a time when it ends up being okay for you, that shows them, "Wow, I'm actually talking to another human being." It lowers the stress level on their end too. That's [crosstalk 00:34:48]. That's okay. You're totally fine.
In fact, the meeting that I set this morning, that was the case. He was like, "Yeah. I'm sorry, I got pulled into this other ... I'm covered for a manager." Et cetera. I said, "Totally fine. That is the end of this work." He's like, "That's perfect. Yeah. Go ahead and set it for this week." It was, "Okay. Awesome. Good luck with the remainder of your week." It allowed them to relax also.
What is interesting is there's this pressure you've got to qualify in advance. That's what I was brought up on my sales career. You've got to know they're almost too qualified before you get them on the discovery meeting. There is no possible way you can find that out before a discovery meeting. Sometimes it takes two or three of those to find that out because they're still warming up to you.
They don't know if they want to completely trust you to divulge the skeletons out of the closet and everything else that's going on internally, and especially with COVID and all the disruption that's happened in the market, that's even more so. I hope that any senior leadership that is hearing this one would allow ... And the AEs respectfully, if you have an SDR setting for an AE, respect the SDR to know if they don't show up, we'll get them back on.
Chris Beall (36:11):
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:36:11]-
Cherryl Turner (36:11):
If you are using smart technology like ConnectAndSell, right? It's-
Chris Beall (36:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I think this is the main thing ConnectAndSell enables, this relaxation into the situation where you can both be human. I really do think that that's like the hidden gift, which shouldn't be considered to be hidden because it's the essence of being able to forge new relationships that could lead to something of value being exchanged.
“Everybody knows that the flow of discovery meetings is the constraint on their business.” So states Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell, as he and Corey Frank, our two Market Dominance Guys, continue their interview with Matthew Forbes, Head of Strategic Accounts at ConnectAndSell. Together, they explore the epiphany that is behind Matt’s recent 4-times uptick in his call-to-meeting ratio. So, what is it that increased that flow for Matt recently, and how can others adopt what he learned so that they too can increase the number of meetings they set?
“I think we let people off the hook,” Matt says, “because they’re busy.” It’s second-nature to get apologetic or back down when the prospect starts making noises like, “Not now” or “Call back later.” But Matt’s epiphany about his true belief in the value of the discovery meeting and in the value of ConnectAndSell for the person he’s talking to, has changed the way he delivers his message. “You’ve got to have the right words, but the words only get you so far.” As Matt explains, if you truly believe in what you’re offering, your tone of voice will communicate that belief. As you’ll hear in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “This Is What Makes All the Difference.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
Everybody knows that the flow of discovery meetings is the constraint on their business, so states Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell. As he and Corey Frank, our two Market Dominance Guys, continued their interview with Matthew Forbes, head of strategic accounts at ConnectAndSell.
Together they explore the epiphany that is behind Matt's recent four times uptick in his call to meeting ratio. So what is it that's increased that flow for Matt recently, and how can others adopt what he learned so they too can increase the number of meetings they set?
"I think we let people off the hook," Matt says, "Because they're busy. It's second nature to get apologetic or back down when the prospect starts making noises like not now, or call back later." But Matt's epiphany about his true belief in the value of the discovery meeting, and in the value of ConnectAndSell for the person he's talking to, has changed the way he delivers his message.
You've got to have the right words, but the words only get you so far. As Matt explains, if you truly believe in what you're offering, your tone of voice will communicate that belief. As you'll hear in this week's Market Dominance Guys episode, this is what makes all the difference.
Corey Frank (01:39):
At my last company, I think Chris, you were there a number of times, you walk in, and one of the things I had on the sales floor was a big sign in all caps that said "No tourists." And we find in our profession that there's so many tourists who like to dabble. "Well, I can get five grand across town on an extra base over here, Hey, they're paying an extra 12 points on a rip on a commission over here. I'm going to end, right."
And you have, these tourists would just kind of go, and the product's irrelevant. And so they're mercenaries, they're tourists. And because there's no barriers to entry in our profession, right? There's no MCAT, or GMAT, or LSAT, we had to go through. You have to go through an interview with another salesperson. Maybe there's a personality test, we slide through. And it sounds like the baseline, the table stakes is "Can I convert 5% of my conversations to meetings?" And for Matt, your client that you were mentioning, for that gentleman to do 28% versus five, they're doing over five times the head count on one person.
And then you combine that with the weapon ConnectAndSell, I mean, forget about that. I mean, you have an amplific effect here that is staggering.
Matthew Forbes (02:49):
Well, I'll tell you I always enjoy ConnectAndSell. I like talking to people every six or eight minutes and not doing any of the nonsense work, but I really liked it on Friday. Now granted there was a couple of dollars on a spiff on the line, and I'm slacking and everybody else and making fun of them, because I've been here for nine years and I have that personality and that was fun. But that was the most fun I've had on ConnectAndSell in an awfully long time or ever.
I think people would hear this and go like, "Oh yeah. Okay. That's that sounds pretty cheesy. Like, yeah next. I believe in your soul. Yeah. I believe like, okay." You have to stop and inspect. I don't think I've ever spoken to any of my bosses or Chris, or any CEO of any company and actually like sat down and reflected. I don't think I meant to. I just, I had a scotch, there was a fire and that's all I could think about for a couple hours was like, "Do you re like ... You know you do."
It, wasn't a question of whether I do or not. It's almost like the self awareness of no, no, no, you do. You really do. How come you're not coming from that place? And it was like, "Okay." And I don't think it's so simple. And I think a lot of people are going to go, "Yeah, whatever." I can tell you right now, it's different. It's really, really different. And anybody who's willing to spend the time and reflect on that, even if you think you believe, really sit down, grab a scotch, maybe two, you might have to really question yourself in a way that I didn't think I was going to. Again, I've been here for nine years. How could I not believe, Corey, come on. I'm sitting there telling Chris like, "Oh, of course I believe, Chris, don't be silly." And I did, but I was unaware of how deep that really was. So it's kind of hard to explain to people.
Corey Frank (04:33):
A lot of folks would say belief system is either based off of increased curiosity, or it's based off of outcomes, or that this epiphany is now that, hey you are truly in charge of your own future. Or as you had said, Matt, that you grew an altruistic bone in your body overnight, and you realize that you're a little bit of a savior, a prophet, in your own world, and these folk desperately need it. Where would you say that emanated from? Because you're selling the same product for nine years, you woke up one morning and you ...
Matthew Forbes (05:04):
I think we let people off the hook. I think we talked to somebody, and we have a conversation, and we let them off the hook because they were busy or they did this or that, or the other thing. And I don't think I let them off the hook. I think that my tonality in our opener was different. I mean, it wasn't like, "Hey, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough." I mean, I slowed it way down. Right. And I really hit those notes, and it made a difference.
And I think it would be an altruistic bone. It'd be a big bone Corey, I'm 68. I don't know if it's necessarily that, but there's a little bit of that. Whoever I call who has never heard of us, should hear about us. It doesn't mean it's right for them. It doesn't mean they should run out and buy it or go do a test drive.
I mean, as a sales guy, I suppose I hope they do, but truly they just need to hear about it. They just need to know that it exists. And that piece of me came out in the last week, and it was growing. That's why I looked at those numbers. And the Friday afternoon blitz, by the way, was five meetings for 14 conversations, in an hour and 45 minutes. I was looking at the whole week before.
But I got to tell you, five meetings. I mean, I got off the phone, and granted, it was the most ridiculous day, I had actually made a LinkedIn post about it. I had eight or 10 meetings lined up. I mean, my brain was mush, but I got off the phone. I'm like, "I know I booked two test drives. Life is good. I closed a deal. And I set five meetings. It's a Friday. You've got to be kidding me. If I could do half of that every day of the week. I wouldn't be the number two guy. I'd be the number one guy." Maybe I will be the number one guy. We'll see.
Chris Beall (06:48):
We will see. Well, what's interesting, to me, about this is this I went to kind of a new level with the whole question of the impact of belief, when one of our customers, a recent customer. And I don't know if he wants me to say his name, so I'm not going to say his name, but he's the chief development officer of a big, big company.
And he and one of his people in his business that he works closely with really believed that nothing happens in business until somebody has a phone conversation with someone. So we had done a test drive and halfway through the test drive, his team had produced zero meetings. That's okay in a ConnectAndSell test drive, but it wasn't okay in this one, for me. It just wasn't, there was something about it. With this kind of leadership. I just thought, "Hey, let's just go ahead and introduce the breakthrough script a little tighter. Let's tighten it up a little bit."
So I went through a mini messaging workshop with them in the middle of a test drive, at lunch, and they set five meetings in the afternoon, and that was nice. And afterwards they said, "Well, we're big. We want to buy a lot. Like we don't want to buy a quarter million vials a month." And I said, 'no, you're not good enough. You're not good enough. I listened to your people, and they're good, there's a lot of talent, but you guys could do better. And I really want you to just take a little flight school. $9,500, let's put six people through flight school. Choose your six best. And let's see what we can do. Let's make a shining star."
So that shining star will sustain us as we go through the difficulties of bringing in something new, because we'll know what can be done. So we went ahead and did that. Here's what surprised me. The chief development officer was the lead user in the flight school. And he called me one day. And I was out for, guess what, a barefoot run up in Port Townsend, Washington, along Discovery Bay. And he said, "Chris, I just had kind of an epiphany." And I said, "What is it?" He said, "I just, that I don't believe sufficiently in the potential value of the meeting for this person, to insist that they take the meeting. So I'm going to shift my mindset right now. I'm about to get on ... "
And get this. I mean, this guy's a big, big dog, at a big company. He gets on ConnectAndSell with his team and leads from the front, always, a hundred percent of the time, including when he's in airports and all sorts of things like that.
He says, I'm going to get on. I'm going to see what happens with the mindset that goes like this, "It is wrong of me. It is my failure to help somebody, if I allow them to not take a meeting, take 15 minutes of their life to hear what it is that we've discovered." And he called me back in 35 minutes, four for four.
Since then he's converted 78.5% of his conversations to meetings.
Corey Frank (06:48):
78%.
Matthew Forbes (09:52):
[inaudible 00:09:52].
Chris Beall (09:52):
78.5%, 78.5%. Now he does some other things though. He believes so much in this, that he doesn't insist that they super commit to the meeting, just that they will accept an invitation, because he's going to pour those invitations back into ConnectAndSell, and talk to them if they don't attend the meeting. So he believes so much, that he's even going to let them off the hook and put them back on the hook and, and eventually talk to them. He's patient about it.
So his net show rate is 85%, which is remarkable. We all know that getting net show rates above 75% is quite challenging, right? So it's a kind of funny act of faith to say, "I'm not going to insist that you swear in blood, that you're going to come to the meeting. I'm just going to go ahead, and we agreed that you're going to come to the meeting and I'll send you the invitation, and by the way, I'm busy. I got something to do. Boom, I'm out of here. Right?" So it's, it's very interesting. When you see this point of view taken to the extreme, and this guy's an extremist. I played golf with him the other day, and I got a picture of what that really means. So he's an extreme kind of guy, right? And he expresses this in the insistence mindset that goes to the meeting, through the meeting, and forever, and it's all about making sure that this person has a shot at learning something that will change their life, or might change their life. And I really think that's not what we teach in sales. It's just not.
Matthew Forbes (11:25):
No one talks like ... Who talks like this? Nobody. Turns out, this is actually the stuff that really matters. You've got to have the right words, no doubt. And we're really good at teaching people, the right words, Chris, at this point, but this is definitely the next level.
Corey Frank (11:42):
The other side of the card. Is that the words are gets you so far Matt, right? But I think today's customers want more than just a talking brochure, and a brochure doesn't necessarily have belief. We've talked about this. Chris, how many bits of information are in an email? How many bits in a brochure, how many bits in a website, versus how many bits in a conversation, and how many even more bits to get to this elusive 600,000 bits to trigger that trust factor, RNA insistence minded, a belief minded conversation. And I think that they want to feel that connection, that part of the ... That as Oren, our previous guest talked about this.
Can you introduce enough skepticism, where you understand that you have their care and feeding of the buying process is acknowledged, they're looking for signals that it's safe to engage in you in a dialogue, all of that thing goes into this thing of trust here. And it sounds like with the right tone, Matt, that you've established, and Chris, and what this gentleman does for the 78.5% is, could you argue, you as a scientist Chris, that the level of entropy, if you will, if I nail the screenplay, and if I nail the tone, my variables of entropy are dropping significantly, and I'm making this a whole heck of a lot less complex than it needs to be?
Chris Beall (13:07):
Yeah. I think you're taking variability out for the prospect, and that's what they need. Oren says this all the time. The prospect needs certainty. They need certainty. And certainty comes from the removal of uncertainty, because nothing generates more uncertainty than being cold called. I mean, that's a lot of uncertainty, which way this thing's going to go. And so what do you do? You seek certainty by getting out of the call with your self image intact.
That's the starting point. We always go back to that ambush moment, where the problem at hand is you. You are the problem. And by the way, believing that and believing that's a good, most reps never get past that. Believing that it's the greatest thing in the world, that you are the problem you, the calling rep or the problem, that that is the rock that you stand on, that you were the problem.
It's like, there are different sorts of religious beliefs out there, right? There's all sorts of foundations of religion. There's one that starts with the notion that birth, sickness, old age, and death, there they are. That's bedrock. Now what? That's how Buddhism works. And you can't kind of say, "Well no. I'm not going to be born, and I'm not going to be sick. I'll never get old, I'll never die" So there's good bedrock there, right?
So, the fear that the ambushed party has of you, the invisible stranger, who's ambushed them, and the certainty that what they want, they all want the same thing, to get out of this call with their self-image in tech. That's what they're looking for, right?
Chris Beall (15:16):
And your willingness to accept that position in their service. This is the problem. When I tell people, "This is what you need to accept.' And they go, "Okay", and they try to trick themselves into it. I'll try to make some mental tricks happen. It's like, no the why behind it is, in their service, because you truly believe in the potential value of the meeting that you're offering, in all circumstances, including the one that you'll say six minutes in "There's no reason for you to continue to even learn this."
Corey Frank (15:47):
Sure, sure.
Chris Beall (15:49):
Even that one, because it's potential value, not certain value. If you want to offer the reduction of uncertainty for somebody else, you have to eat a massive amount of uncertainty of yourself. That's the service that you're doing. You eat the uncertainty, so that the prospect doesn't have to experience uncertainty.
That's the essence of sales. That is what you do. You gobble up uncertainty, and you endure the pain of the uncertainty, so that the other person can advance towards the unknown and make it known. That's what you're doing, as a sales person. That's the fundamental core act of sales. And yes, you're right, Matt. People don't talk like this. But if they're serious about the stuff they do talk about, they talk about winning, and they talk about putting up big numbers, they talk about killing it, crushing it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you're really serious about that stuff, you kind of owe it to yourself to look at how human beings really work.
Corey Frank (16:46):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hustle porn is a dangerous thing, and it has absolutely no nutritional value. Kind of like the old fruit Stripe gum. Remember we used to have as kids, right? You just go through a whole pack because you'd take a couple of bites and all of a sudden the sugar is long gone. It looked good, it smelled good, but you wouldn't want to have it for dinner.
And the study of bio physiology and why people have their bones in their nose, and why paints left and right, and all the stuff that we talked about, Chris, early on in our [inaudible 00:17:14]. I think that's the key to kind of discovering this part of the craft that unfortunately it's tough. Those are tough truths. Those are tough truths, Chris, that you had mentioned.
I think you'd agree with me, Matt, that I am the bearer of this uncertainty. I have the burden of this uncertainty. I willingly do it every day as a cold caller. Our colleague Ryan Recert, I think is one of the unsung heroes of our profession for eating the frog every day, publicly. And James Thornburg, the granddaddy, the King of cold calling himself, what he does every day. And it's folks like that who are pushing sales thought leadership beyond just "I love uncle Zig Ziglar." But beyond just fire up in the morning or Gary V videos.
Matthew Forbes (18:01):
So, well, I tell you while we were talking, I looked at some of the other guys on my team. Was this just me? Was this just an aberration? Did this just happen? Is this going to go away next week? I'm getting my second COVID shot on Thursday. Like, will, I wake up on Monday and not be able to set meetings? Oh my God.
So here's the story. Rich, great guy, great sales guy. Last year booked meetings at 8%. Rich, hopefully, you don't care that I said that. Rich, on Friday, after going through flight school, now does rich believe what I believe in my soul? I don't know. But he went through flight school and they changed his tone. They changed how he was attacking the script.
He went from 9%, on Friday Rich booked meetings at 28.6%. So it's not just me. Mark Hodgeson 7.5% last year, Mark Hodgeson, 19%. Does not suck when all you're talking about is going through a flight school and having someone talk to you about the psychology of the script you're already using, and what's important and why. And then I think what I came to was sort of that next-level piece of it. But yeah, I think you and Chris's perspective, I think you can manufacture this stuff. I think you really can.
Corey Frank (19:17):
So manufacturing, meaning, if you had a new team of BDRs that are starting under you Matt and Chris, and a killer product, I can even learn again, the breakthrough script, pre play, the 27 seconds. What's the piece that I absolutely positively have to show up for that from an atomic weight perspective has more to do with eliciting that extra three, five X, that Mark and rich top-shelf sales folks, for sure that, that they got out of this thing? What would you say it would be?
Matthew Forbes (19:52):
Yeah, it's the flight school. I mean, Donny Crawford explaining the Psychology. I mean, it's our script for heaven's sakes. We should know this stuff. I mean, come on. I mean, we do these things all the time for our customers, but to really sit us down and say, "Here's why you say this word." I wasn't even on the first flight school I was in Florida on vacation. I said, "Okay, honey, I'll go back. I'll watch the call. It'll be an hour."
It was over two hours. I think it was two and a half hours of Chris just talking about the script, and spending 20 minutes on it, why did we say this word? And here's what it means. And here's the reason and the why behind it and let's get into it. And why not that word? Here's this. And just going through that process and understanding that makes a huge difference, and really coming in vocally.
I'm not going to say that everybody faked it, the tonality piece. I think we changed their tonality piece, but I think that's one step closer to, yeah I'm not letting you off the hook. Not because my boss is watching. Not because I want to book a meeting and it's good for me, but because it's good for you. The words Chris has used, I mean it's Chris. I mean, I have to listen to these podcasts twice. I work for the guy, right? But Chris, what do you always say? The potential value of the meeting for the person you're talking to. Like, that means very little to me as a sales guy. I've heard that a lot. And I think this is of it.
Chris Beall (21:14):
Matt, because we see meetings, as a sales guy, we see them as a form of currency. It's a form of validation of [inaudible 00:21:22]. You pay your mortgage off with the meetings. And sometimes we forget to have that empathy on the other side, I believe,
Matthew Forbes (21:27):
Oh, a hundred percent. But I just never really dug deep. And like, do you really believe that? And this is what I say to my customers. In their soul, why does that guy 28? And the other guy is 10, my customer? Because one guy bleeds green. That's the only possible reason because the second you start talking about what you do and you use category language on a cold call, you're off the cold call. You're going to get "I'm all set" all day long. That's just how cold calling is.
So it's not product knowledge, right? It's literally one guy bleeds green, and does not let the other guy off the phone. And not in a Jordan Belfort way, not like that. But he really believes that he's going to help that school. Because that's who he calls. Because he does. And if anybody's listening, and they can get their team to that, you just bought yourself double the amount of inside sales reps you have.
Chris Beall (22:20):
At least.
Matthew Forbes (22:20):
Because they're going to book 2X, for sure.
Corey Frank (22:23):
Absolutely. You have to fall in love, it sounds like what you're saying is, and Chris you've talked about this too is, can you fall in love with your craft? Can you fall in love with the individual nuances of your craft? I don't own a Ferrari at this particular moment, but I took a Ferrari tour when I was in Italy. And it's not a big factory for those who are listening, who've taken the factory ... But every aspect from the stitching to Enzo Ferrari's vision, that he really didn't even want to radio in the first couple of Ferrari versions, because it would diminish the sound that you hear when you are shifting from second to third to fourth, that was music enough for Enzo Ferrari. What do you want to pollute it for by listening to Drake, right?
If you don't buy a Ferrari to get from point a to point B, you are a true connoisseur of the craft of motor racing, of motor movement, of engineering excellence. And to hear the shifting and the nuances, and the horsepower, you are falling itself, and you're falling in love, every time you downshift, or you hit that clutch.
And I think that from our profession to almost ... Matt, you almost sound like you're describing an out-of-body experience, where you separated yourself from Matt, listening to Matt, while Matt is delivering the phone call, and you're able to judge yourself, in real time, and correct, if needed, in real-time, an out of body truly experienced. And I think that's clearly ... I can see you getting from seven to eight in a couple of days, maybe your list gets in the jet stream, and you get to 10, 11%. But to have top-shelf rep after top-shelf connoisseur goes to 27, 28%, let alone 78%, there's a there's something in the water.
Matthew Forbes (24:19):
Yeah, there is. It's listening to Chris for two and a half hours, and then actually listening to Chris. I can't believe I actually listened to Chris like deep down inside. [crosstalk 00:24:30].
Corey Frank (24:31):
You can hear Chris, or you can listen to Chris. Two different things.
Matthew Forbes (24:35):
Might be the first time I've ever heard him. I don't know. We'll see.
Corey Frank (24:39):
Well, listen, I don't know how many hundreds of hours I've had to listen to Chris in the last couple of [inaudible 00:24:44]. But, we won't ... Now that we're up against the clock, and we're going to get the hook on time here any minute. So I think everybody has done listening to ... Certainly, well past done listening to me, Matt, it was an absolute pleasure having you on. A journey of promise now, I'm sure. The way you made money, the way you service your clients, and the reciprocal way that you make money, last year, last month, is the enemy of how you make money today, and going forward.
Matthew Forbes (25:13):
I believe that.
Corey Frank (25:14):
And that is the villain of meandering, touristy, you don't have nine years of experience. You have one year, nine times, right? Or you have six months, 18 times. Like a lot of us go in and out of love. And I think you found the secret portal to basically do the cloning of formats over the period of a Friday afternoon.
Matthew Forbes (25:36):
It's like 1200 pounds. That's a lot of mass. I mean, let's be clear. That's a lot.
Corey Frank (25:41):
[inaudible 00:25:41] 30 feet, six-foot. What are you? 6'8", right? So that's like-
Matthew Forbes (25:44):
[crosstalk 00:25:44] I mean, as far as tonnage goes, it was a very productive-
Corey Frank (25:47):
Well, if it doesn't work out, you could probably get a job at a circus. So that's the one thing-
Matthew Forbes (25:50):
Oh, my middle name is Carney. I mean that's enough said, right? I mean, there you go.
Corey Frank (25:55):
That's right. Well, beautiful. Well, thank you Chris. Thank you, Matt. This is another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. Thanks for listening.
This week, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, interview Matthew Forbes, Head of Strategic Accounts at ConnectAndSell, about an epiphany Matt had that increased the meetings he set by almost 400%. Wow! What could possibly change that would explain that kind of increase? Well, it’s actually a simple change, but it’s a very necessary one: Matt came to truly believe — deep in his soul — in the potential value of the discovery meeting for his prospects, even if they were never going to do business with ConnectAndSell. His messaging script didn’t change at all. It was his belief that did. Listen to today’s Market Dominance Guys episode, “You’d Better Believe It!” to learn how Matt came to make this meeting-setting leap.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
This week, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, interviewed Matthew Forbes, Head of Strategic Accounts at ConnectAndSell, about an epiphany Matt had that increased the meetings he set by almost 400%. Wow! What could possibly change that would explain that kind of increase? Well, it's actually a simple change, but it's a very necessary one. Matt came to truly believe, deep in his soul, in the potential value of the discovery meeting for his prospects, even if they were never going to do business with ConnectandSell. His messaging script didn't change at all. It was his belief that did. Listen to today's Market Dominance Guys episode, "You'd Better Believe It," to learn how Matt came to make his meeting settings leap.
Matthew Forbes (01:20):
I have a friend who I used to work with. We discovered 16 years ago who was like, "enough of me looking at your crap online. You've got to tell me how you're doing this. I need to go talk to more people." So, we went through it very, very quickly, but it would not be Insperity. It would be just him and plausibly could grow from there, but I think they were once a customer.
Corey Frank (01:43):
Flight school has not been grounded. Flight school is taken off. I love it. We're going to talk today. We're going to interview big Matt Forbes about belief.
Chris Beall (01:53):
So here's the little story Mr. Forbes and I had a conversation three or four weeks ago, right before I bought this house. And it went on for a couple hours. He refers to it in one way. I refer to it in another. I'll let him describe it, and something happened inside Mr. Forbes that changed his conversion numbers to the point where he is now the gold medalist on two consecutive flight school experiences across one of the most experienced ConnectAndSell calling teams on earth, our account executives. And he didn't win by a little-
Corey Frank (02:33):
He cheated.
Chris Beall (02:34):
He won by a lot. [crosstalk 00:02:36]. He cheated. He did cheat. He cheated by believing in the potential value of the meeting for the human being that he was talking with. Even if there's never going to be any business. I know, he's been deeply corrupted. I thought it'd be great to have Matt share his story while we listen.
Corey Frank (02:52):
Okay, Matt, are you a Sales Director at ConnectandSell? What's your specific title?
Matthew Forbes (02:58):
Oh, I'm the Head of Strategic Accounts, Mr. Frank.
Chris Beall (03:01):
I was going to say you remember the guy at the end of the Rocky and Bullwinkle and everything goes down and the guy with the broom, comes out, and sweeps everything off?
Corey Frank (03:08):
Yes, he's the one
Chris Beall (03:10):
That guy.
Corey Frank (03:10):
He's the one. I love it. Okay. All right.
Welcome to another episode of the market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank, and as always the prophet of profits, the head of the market domination department for many companies, even though they won't admit it, Chris Beall, the CEO of ConnectandSell. Chris, good afternoon.
Chris Beall (03:32):
As always Corey, it is a good afternoon when I'm here with you.
Corey Frank (03:35):
And we have a guest, Chris. You know how we feel about guests. We don't have to repeat it, but I think this is a very appropriate guest for what we've been talking about the last few weeks, which is the system of the cheat codes. I think it sounds like what you and Matt had been cooking up here is probably the Occam's razor of cheat codes. I think you could say, because it's right in front of you, but you have folks trying to make things a lot more complex than they are.
And we have Mr. Matt Forbes, who is the Head of Strategic Initiatives over at ConnectandSell. And we're going to talk to Matt about an initiative that sounds like he not only spiked the ball, but spiked the ball, picked it up, threw it in the stands, then went and grabbed it and then spiked it again, based off some of the results that you've had. And so I know I'm on bated breath to find out what some of this data is, and cause Chris knows, Matt, that my MO for the last couple of years, as we've been doing this 75 plus episodes is to take anything I get from anybody smarter than I, and claim those ideas as my own. That's what I do. I'm a shameless, shameless thief. So with that, Chris, talk a little bit about the background of Matt, the project he was working on, and exactly what he uncovered here.
Chris Beall (04:51):
The project has been going on for a few years. I would say it was punctuated by various things. A lobster dinner in Boston once I remember was kind of a little slice of it. Matt and I have been talking for a long time about the relationship between what goes on inside of us and what happens on the scoreboard. As you know, and I think the ... I don't know how much of our audience has bothered to plow through my endless diatribes on the subject. But it's my deep belief that we are seen as what we believe as, as who we are, by what we believe in, how we say what we say, and we're unaware of that connection. And I go back to a time when one of our big customers asked us to do an outsource project and Corey your YoungBloods.works doing outsource projects, right and left and helping people get lots of appointments and move forward with their businesses.
And we took on this project with a company that we're very, very familiar with. We knew exactly we thought how to be successful setting appointments for them. Mind you not ConnectandSell's normal business, but we were asked to do it, and we gave it a whirl. So we took our own SDRs and applied them to this. And they were terrible. Even though we got the script right, we got all that stuff right, they were terrible. So about three weeks in, I asked this question, which is, do our SDRs believe in the potential value of the meeting that they're offering to these human beings they're speaking with, even if there's never going to be any business. And the answer was well, how could they? They've never spoken to anybody who attended a discovery meeting for this particular customer and could come away and say, "You know what, here's what I learned. And it changed my life."
So I went out and I found a couple of those customers and had them speak to the SDR team directly and say, "this is how that discovery call changed my life, independent of buying that product." And voila, immediate four times improvement in output measured as meetings per hour and yet no change at all in the script. There was a force hiding inside these people, and I just needed to go in and find it. And the way we found it was by having them talk to somebody who had experienced the value, then they could believe in the value of the meeting and they could sound like they believed in it. And so I've been on a little bit of a kick ever since then, but it's the hardest thing because sales reps are naturally inclined to want to do things that produce results that go in the direction of producing results that eventually produce commissions.
That is they have quota to make, and we incentivize them that way. And then we kind of hope they will put that aside and instead do something that might be more effective. And we did a whole episode on this, the dog, the piece of meat, and the chain link fence, a whole episode on it. And we know what a dog does in those circumstances. All of us are dogs when it comes to sales. We look at a piece of meat or smell it on the other side of the fence, and we try to go through the fence instead of backing away from the fence and finding the gate, which is generally about 10 feet to the right. So what do we get? A bloody nose, lots of frustration. So Matt and I have been talking about this for years on various, in various levels. And I don't know what kind of conversation I would characterize it as, but it was a long one. Cause I was out on a barefoot trot that went long, long, long-
Corey Frank (08:18):
Hang on a minute. Did Chris just say that he had a long conversation? I mean stop the presses.
Matthew Forbes (08:24):
It's shocking. It's absolutely shocking that 10 minute call went about 2:20. Yeah. Who knew.
Chris Beall (08:30):
2:20. And the next thing you know, Matt's going to tell you what the rest of the story is because it's, it was quite remarkable. And he told it to me a few days ago and I, it brought tears to my eyes and not just cause a cold wind was blowing out of the Southeast here in Green Valley, Arizona.
Corey Frank (08:49):
And you were wearing a kilt, right? Exactly.
Matthew Forbes (08:50):
Exactly. I've worked with Chris for nine years and you know Chris, right? Lot of abstract concepts and they don't, some of them are perfect and some of them are over my head as just a dumb old sales guy. And we had this two hour and 20 minute conversation about what do you believe and not, what do you believe? What do you believe in your soul about what you're selling? Do you really believe that someone should take a meeting with you that everyone should take a meeting with you? And of course, as Chris is being Chris, I'm like, "Well of course I believe, Chris, I truly do love ConnectandSell. I think people should use it." And after the call, I kind of got to thinking, do I actually believe that? And I do, but do I believe it in my soul? Like deep, like truly. And I don't think I'd ever realized the fact that I really do believe that deep and that in turn, I think lets a lot of people off the hook when I'm talking to them on the phone.
Corey Frank (09:52):
Is it a change in tone? How would you dumb it down to a guy like me, Matt, of same phrase used without belief and maybe a same phrase used with belief. You have, you're Never Split the Difference book there and our friend Chris Voss, right? The inner partner, right, Chris? From many years ago, talked about that's right versus you're right. Talks about that in his book and how a lot of folks, when they talk, they're waiting to hear for "You're right. You're right. You're right." Which in essence means "just go away." I don't believe [inaudible 00:10:26], but when you say "That's right," now I have some trust built up. So what, what is it that you've discovered in this that could help a guy like me develop a belief mentality, an intention mentality?
Matthew Forbes (10:38):
First, you really got to decide what you believe as a sales rep. I mean truly you have to actually ask the question cause you inherently should believe. You sell it. You work there. But even me at nine years, I really had to ask myself the question. So the script didn't change because unlike a lot of sales directors and certainly some at ConnectandSell, I read the script. It's right there. I mean I physically, my wife makes fun of me. Right? I get on a call and the call starts here and I turn and I read because I do know that an opening script works word for word and you shouldn't stray. So it's not the words. We know that for sure. It's really the belief. There's some tonality difference, but there's a piece where when you try to get off the phone with me, I'm not going to have it because I want to truly help you.
You're lucky if you take a 15 minute call with me, I'm going to teach you something you don't know. And it may just change everything for you. It may not, don't know, but you're going to learn something. And that's when things started to change and I ran my numbers. So here are the stats, Corey: Matt Forbes, last year, 42,000 phone calls on ConnectandSell. My meeting booked rate was 9.2%. And that's a blended rate between first calls and the second calls, right? It's about 60% first and 40% follow-up. Matt Forbes last week was meeting booked of 26%. Something changed. Matt Forbes on that Friday call blitz was meeting booked at 35.7%. I went five for 14 on net new calls, same list, same script, same everything. Now there was ... we're in a flight school. So there was competition. And I admit that the competition is just so valuable.
It's ridiculous. But those numbers, when I look at where the other reps were, they didn't go up as high as I did as a percentage, not even close. And I really think it's that last notion of it's not that I don't want to let you off the call because I want to book a meeting. It's I don't want to let you off the call because you deserve to hear what I'm going to say. It literally could change how you go to market. I mean, I believe that in my soul, I think I always believed it, Chris. I don't think I recognized it. I don't think I was willing to come out and say, "Look, here's the deal." And that's what changed. And honestly, it's different now.
Corey Frank (13:14):
How long of a time frame was that, Matt, again that you were on the phone for those five meetings?
Matthew Forbes (13:19):
Session dial time: two hours and 29 minutes. Talked to 26 people-
Corey Frank (13:19):
That's incredible.
Matthew Forbes (13:23):
Went seven for 26. Yeah. That's insane. That's a Friday afternoon, but that's a Friday afternoon.
Corey Frank (13:30):
Friday afternoon. You know Chris, I think probably one of our first episodes, we talked about this concept of the promise is that the market is always on fire. And that... Think you had said, Chris, that the message is water, right? And that that's the mentality you need to have is that the proverbial go to the person at the end of the bar on his left side at the end of the day, "How was your week?" Right? You have no idea, right? They're on fire, and the message is water, but it sounds like we need to make a little caveat to that. Now, certainly after talking with Matt here, right? It's not just the message is water, right? But the delivery or this belief, this intention messaging is the fire extinguisher. Right. Water's good. But as you know, Chris, from working in a restaurant, we've heard this many times, you don't put water on a grease fire.
Chris Beall (14:22):
That is so true. I know somebody just the other day who burned themselves by making that mistake. I shouldn't laugh, but they survived.
Corey Frank (14:30):
What do you think of the tonality difference versus the ... I mean, Matt, you're calling it something internally that there was a, sounds like it's more of a, a switch than a dial of belief. Like, listen, I'm trying to help. Right? I have a belief that my discovery call will open up. Whether you buy my product or not, the discovery call has a cape on it. And you just need to show up for the discovery call, whether you buy my product or not, you're going to find something new about the industry, you're going to learn something new about your business, et cetera. Is that bottled? Can that be taught? How would you teach it to a new sales guy like me where I'm reading, what you're reading, Matt, I'm reading your script that's on my wall. I'm holding it on every call, but I'm not getting the converts that you are.
Over the years, how salespeople make an initial contact for a sale has changed. In these modern times, it has come down to a choice between making a cold phone call or sending a cold email. It seems to be a matter of choice. However, if you’re trying to break through a prospect’s initial fear of being sold to so that you can engender that level of trust necessary to set a meeting or make a sale, which approach should you put YOUR trust in? The human voice? Or a digital communication?
Today, our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, talks with podcast producer Susan Finch about this very question. As CEO of ConnectAndSell, Chris is an impassioned believer in phone conversations first as the most successful tool for setting appointments. Why? Because with your voice, you can employ timbre, tone, pacing, and emotion. In a one-on-one conversation, you can pause for a response, share humor when appropriate, or convey that you understand the other person’s situation. However carefully crafted, an email message can never do as a good a job at interacting with another human being. In pursuing the all-important goal of engendering trust with a prospect, initial phone conversations win, hands down! Listen in to today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode as Chris shares his well-honed opinions on “How to Warm Up a Cold Communication.”
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Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Susan Finch (00:06):
Hey everybody, Susan Finch here. I am the Producer for Market Dominance Guys, and I was invited by Chris Beall to join him on today's episode. Chris, what are we going to talk about?
Chris Beall (01:00):
Well, let's talk about something we've never talked about, which in 70 episodes or whatever is a little bit hard to find but this turned out to be easy to find. So I've been doing some radio advertising recently and we've been doing a lot more work with what we call talk to send, which is sending an email after each conversation and talk to sequence and talk to cadence or whatever people call these things in case it's not just an email that might be triggering a sequence. And I thought it might be interesting to talk about how does a conversation first approach work with all of the other media, all the other ways of having information flow between you and your prospects. I thought that might be kind of fun.
Susan Finch (01:46):
It is. It's dizzy you know. And new players and new shiny things, as you brought up clubhouse earlier today, are coming into our spectrum of time sucks and we don't know whether they're effective or not. And we don't know where they're playing or where they're hanging there or invest in time over there is really worth the time. And how do we measure it all?
Chris Beall (02:11):
Yeah, there you go. So I think measuring it is really, really, really hard. But I think there's a principle we can apply that's really simple. There's only two kinds of communication we can have with somebody; one is communication with somebody we have no relationship with and the other is communication with somebody we have a relationship with as I often say. And sometimes derided for, that's just math, right? In fact, it's a branch of math called Logic which is not that popular here in our country, but every once in a while somebody takes it up for a few minutes and they get some good out of it. So it's just two possibilities. And what's so interesting to me is that when you divide the world of communication with prospects and customers into those two categories instead of into other categories, you find something out really quickly.
You may not get it at first, most of us don't, but it works like this, all communication of a digital form with somebody we don't have a relationship with is open loop and doesn't produce trust. And that's really interesting because in the world of business to business, we only get information back when it's closed loop. So say I send you an email and say you retired from your company five months ago but your company keeps your email alive so that they can make sure that should somebody send an email to you, a very important senior or vice president of whatever, that email gets proper attention will come back to me as you opened that email. That's the it because email is fundamentally open loop. And even if I put little tricksy things in it little pixels or pixies or whatever they happen to be, they're going to notice and they're going to send something back and say, "Oh, they opened it."
Or even if I'm looking at bounce rates. In both cases, it's not going to bounce and the pixies and the pixels and all that are going to say it was opened. And then what will happen? Well, say you're a data seller like, I don't know, Zoom info, you're going to report to the world that this person works at this company still even though they left five months ago. And in fact there's a great mystery among the data sellers and people who buy data and actually use it like we do and our customers do to call people, talk to people. It's like, "Huh, why are there so many retired people in this dataset?" And it's because email is open loop. It sometimes tries to be closed loop and people put fancy things in it to try to make it closed loop but it's open loop. And so we can't really trust the information that comes back. And then the other part is, it doesn't matter if it's email, if it's social, if it's whatever, billboards which are actually analog, digital media open loop, we can't build trust through digital communications alone.
There's not enough data. And everybody thinks there's enough data cycle. It's digital. It must have more data, but there's almost no data in a digital communication that gets through. Maybe a picture quickly forgotten.
Susan Finch (05:26):
You remind me of somebody that I respect a lot, Linda Zimmer. And she is into data security and speaks on it throughout the world. But she always reminds me that data is not truth, but it is sold as truth.
Chris Beall (05:41):
Oh yes. Yes. And oddly enough to get to truth takes a lot more data than the amount of data that tends to be sold as truth. That is, the data that's important for building trust is data that speaks to parts of ourselves we're not aware of. That's why they're called unconscious and subconscious parts of the mind. Those are just fancy names for, oh, Sigmund Freud wanted to say something. Although Sigmund Freud was kind of a weird guy, wanted to say some things, right? Not all of which were that savory, but it's just simple which is, there are things that go on inside of our noggins and our bodies that we're not aware of that are really important when it comes to us making decisions. And in fact, when we make the big decision, the biggest decision we ever make, do I trust this person?
That's the biggest decision because when we screw it up and we get it wrong, it can be fatal. So here we have this really big decision, a blood decision, and we make it based on lots of data, lots of information actually, going into our unconscious and subconscious parts of our brains and our bodies. And that data, that information just isn't available in digital media. We just can't get there from here. Email, 5,000 bits roughly in an email, conversation, 20,000 bits in one second of that conversation, in one second, it's for emails. So now we're into a world where well, how many seconds does it take to get trust? Chris Voss, FBI's hostage negotiator for many years, I think the world's foremost expert on getting trust in a sales conversation. I asked him once, "How long do we have to get trust in a cold call?"
And a cold call is just a name for an initial voice interaction. We haven't spoken before and I'm the ambusher. So I'm the ambusher, how long do I have to get trust from you? And he just looked me in the eye and said seven seconds. And when I playfully said, "Really? Our research says eight seconds." He said, "Your research is wrong. It's seven seconds." At which point, I was pretty sure that his research was research and mine wasn't. And I asked him, "What do we have to do in those seven seconds?" He says, "Oh, that's easy. All we have to do is demonstrate to this person that we see the world through their eyes and show them that we're competent to solve a problem they have right now." I said, "Well, that's a lot to do in seven seconds."
Susan Finch (08:25):
You guys have talked about this a lot, the seven second rule and how long and what has to be packed into that time. And I played through in my head, so many people that are not customers of connect and sell and some of your reputable competitors. But what I see is, four of those seconds gets wasted as that transfer happens, that hello, hello, hello. And the seconds tick away and you're almost done before you even heard a voice and what a waste.
Chris Beall (09:01):
Exactly. And then when you, yes, the time goes by. And then by the way, most reps just waste the time that they have. So they say, "So Susan, how are you today?" And I was like, "Okay." So now you talk for six or seven seconds and we're done. And that's not enough to get the job done because we didn't show the person that we see their world through their eyes. "Hi, how are you today?" Is not seeing the world through their eyes. "Did I catch you at a bad time?" It's a little bit closer because you referred to a bad time and it is a bad time because it's always a bad time but they did answer the phone. So it was probably a good time actually for a conversation, just not with you.
Susan Finch (09:44):
My time is so precious that how much time do I want to allot to something unexpected, a stranger or an annoyance in general. Because me might even know the annoyance and they may have called us before and how much time are we willing to devote to that to actually pick up the phone? My time super precious. I won't do that many times.
Chris Beall (10:05):
Yeah. And what you will do in general is you'll trade a little certainty. I'm off this call in 27 seconds, thank God, in exchange for a little courtesy. Yeah, I'll listen to why you called. That exchange is very, very easy to sell. That's one of the easiest sells in the world. I know I'm an interruption. "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I've called?" And if I say that, you might decide that your self image is so robust that you're just going to say no. Or you might decide you're so afraid of me or afraid of your own tendency to go along with what people say to you that you will say, "No, not right now. I'm busy." Which is kind of silly because you did answer the phone. You aren't that busy. You were expecting something that was going to take, oh, maybe 27 seconds.
But for the most part, people would chuckle and go, "Sure, go ahead." And the reason they chuckle is that people chuckle and they laugh when their fear is relieved. That's how jokes work. Jokes make us nervous about a particular way it could go and then when it goes another way, that thing called the punchline, we're relieved and we laugh. Laughter is a way of expressing relief and the departure of fear. So when we get called, we're afraid. Why are we afraid? An invisible stranger just ambushed us. That's pretty scary. And how do we express our fear? Annoyance and desire to get out of the room, so to speak. But what is our constraint? Oh, darn. It's an interaction with another human being and if I treat them too badly, my own self-image will be harmed. I'll hurt myself. So I don't want to do that so I'm a little bit stuck.
Oh, you're so kind. You offer me a way out. I know I'm an interruption. "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I call?" Said playfully. And sounds like a deal. Now what's funny about this is, right there you've accomplished the purpose of a cold call. You're done. You have trust. Oddly enough, fear is a great foundation for building trust because by relieving fear, you'll always build trust. Not sometimes but always. And if you just left it at that and you didn't actually fulfill the 27 second promise, then you'd have trust that got eroded because you didn't fulfill your promise. But if you fulfill your promise and tell him why you called and then let them go if they want to go, they'll trust you and you can talk to them again. However, and this is the big point, then you can also send them an email. Then you can send them an email which they will open and read because you can say in the subject line of that email, thanks for our conversation just now.
And that's a completely different email because it's within a trust relationship that actually exists and is very fresh. And so when you look at digital media, and podcasts are like this too by the way. Somebody might be amused by us in our podcast, right? And they might learn something. Sometimes they'll reach out to me and say, "This changed my life." I'm getting a fair amount of that, but they actually won't quite trust us yet. Not Corey, not me, but if we have a conversation with them. So say I have a conversation with somebody. I had a conversation with a very senior sales enablement head from 3M today. And by the end of that conversation, which was longer than 27 seconds, it was actually 17 minutes and 38 seconds, I could send this person an email and this person is going to open that email and actually read it and probably reply to it and say thank you for the information you provided, blah, blah, blah and here's how I'd like to proceed or something like that, right?
That same person, a cold email would have gone right over into the cold email trash file where cold emails go and I'd have to then resort to a clever subject line. Oh, did alligators eat your toenails? Or some nonsense like that which people do in hopes of raising themselves up above the sea of noise called email. It's not really a sea of noise. It's trusted email from people. I know you sent me a house warming gifts to Helen and I via email.
I didn't see it because it was in a sea of untrusted email and somehow it just slipped by me but when you reminded me of it, I went right over there and opened it, forwarded it to my fiance and voila, we're grateful, we're happy to have a house warming gift. Thank you so very much. We really do love our new house and all that is good. Had you just been some stranger sending me a house warming gift, first of all, it would have been weird. Secondly, I would have been suspicious of it as like, what are you trying to sell me? And thirdly, I missed this one. I would have missed that one forever one.
Susan Finch (15:01):
You definitely wouldn't trust the click.
Chris Beall (15:04):
I wouldn't trust the click and you wouldn't be able to know.
Susan Finch (15:08):
No, but you-
Chris Beall (15:09):
You wouldn't know what had happened to it.
Susan Finch (15:12):
But you're coming back to something. With that subject that you said about the alligators. With the piece that you brought up earlier about a joke and a punchline, there is a piece to building these relationships. And maybe it's just me because I appreciate a good sense of humor, but I find when people have a good sense of humor and know how to fine tune, it's, this is normally done, this is why I talking to GoDaddy for a hosting company as opposed to some of the other competitors of theirs because it's so sexist. The guys answer, the guys have a sense of humor.
The guys get any humor I have. And there's a report immediately because you get me. You find me funny. And if you find me funny, I'm probably going to hang out with you a little bit more and trust you more especially when I have a stupid joke to say. And I want to talk a little bit, I know this 27 seconds are so valuable, but even from that moment and in that little space, there are ways to drop those disarming pieces of humor, of relatability, of vulnerability. How important is that?
Chris Beall (16:19):
I think it's crucially important in discovery, crucially important. I think it's also crucially important in your voice when somebody accepts your 27 seconds, because you can say you can actually just chuckle along with them. You don't have to say anything about it. It's just funny. Can I have 27 seconds tell you why I called? It's kind of funny. Listen to James Thornburg say it some time out there on his many, many, many LinkedIn videos that he makes of himself cold calling using that opener. And you look at his face and he's ready for humor, for action, right? But for humor action, for humorous interaction. I think humor when shared is, that's the first dish we share with somebody that shows that we trust them. We'll find what they said that is intended to be funny funny. That's trust. That's why comedians make a lot of money because they can stand up on stage with an audience that doesn't trust them to start with, that's why they're heckled also, is to test their ability to punch all the way through to the other side and get to the trust regime.
And it's why when they bomb, they call it dying, died up there on stage. And I don't know if you've ever done standup. All of us who've done classroom teaching have done lots and lots of standup. I've spent thousands of hours stand up. And the number one rule is, until the class laughs with you and at you a little bit, you're just not there. You're just not there. But once they do, you're probably pretty good. So it's also true that follow up email. So self-deprecating humor in a cold email is incredibly dangerous. You actually don't even know who you're making fun of, them, you, somebody else. It's very dangerous. But on a followup email, it's really easy. It's really easy.
You can say, "Oh, about that conversation we had today." Ambushed again, and I know it was awkward, ambushed again, it's kind of funny so people don't think of ambush. Unexpected word makes you nervous. The punchline is it was really something that they understand. There's a million ways to tell a joke, right? One word, two words, any words, no words. But in a trust relationship, the joke is understood or attempted to be understood. People will laugh at your jokes when they trust you even if they don't get the joke.
Susan Finch (18:56):
I agree. We were just having this conversation in our house last night, my daughter's pledging a sorority and they want her in the sorority because they think she's hilarious while the other three of us in the house that are funnier than she is disagreed, which she didn't appreciate it. We all agreed who is the funniest and it's my son but she said, "You don't understand. I'm really funny." She said, "You don't understand. My friends think I'm the funniest person they know and I tell them they need to up their game with their friends then. If I'm as good as they have, they need somebody better."
Chris Beall (19:33):
I'll make some interest. Well, at least she's funny enough.
Susan Finch (19:36):
She is.
Chris Beall (19:38):
And actually this brings up another point. It's a point I call above threshold. We haven't really talked about it on Market Dominance Guys. Once you're above threshold, within some element of a relationship that's sufficient to allow you to advance the relationship then it doesn't make sense to keep pushing that particular dimension of the relationship. And this is the classic failure mode of all salespeople. It's called selling after the close. But most people think the close is when the deal is signed. That's actually not the close. The first close is, did they chuckle at your 27 seconds? The second close is, did they actually listen to you when you set the next part? Really listen. The third is, do they come back and say something to you? Now you've had three closes.
The fourth is, did they agree to take the meeting or did they tell you the truth about their situation? Now in an ambush, nobody will really tell you quite the truth. There are very few people with the plum to do that. It just is tough, right? So in sales, we're always doing these little tiny closes and what a close means is that's done, it's okay to move on. That's actually what it means. That's done. And people who can't close have an emotional issue concerning their confidence in the relationships they build. So a closer such as say, myself, and I'm a pretty well-known closer, right? Not a deal closer. I do close deals, but that's not... What's interesting it's like, once we get to point X, if I think we're there and you act like we're there, we're there and we're moving on.
This is why I can propose to somebody two days after meeting them, which had happened in the case of this particular fiance and me and why I can be confident doing it because we were there and it was okay for me to say it and then I didn't have to keep going back and saying it. There are three things that I said. I'm not going to repeat them here but they were really important and then we could move on to the next part, which was me going back to my hotel. So it's really fascinating, when you watch great salespeople, they will close 30, 40 times in a discovery conversation in little tiny ways.
Susan Finch (22:07):
Yes.
Chris Beall (22:08):
And it's because, having built trust, it's okay to risk the relationship by moving forward as long as you have reasonable confidence, that you'll be told that you're being inappropriate, which happened by moving forward. And so he says, "Hang on a second." And that's great, you go, "Okay, wait a minute. We weren't really close." But that's called a false positive on the close, that you got the false positive. It wasn't actually an okay situation to close in but you have enough trust that the other person is going to catch the false positive and they're going to give it back to you as information and this is what you can't do in digital media. You can't catch the failure to close. In fact, you can't detect the micro close. It's not there. Where am I going to detect it? Between the first sentence, second sentence, third sentence of the email.
I don't know what's going on in you. But if I see you and hear you and then you trust me enough to tell me when I've screwed up, then we can collaborate and move forward. And this is the essence of all sales, people who learn it, have fun and make a lot of money. And people who don't learn it drive the rest of us because it's like-
Susan Finch (23:17):
They make their family crazy and their friends crazy. They make everybody crazy because it carries through. If you don't see where you have been given permission and encouragement to go to the next thing and you can't recognize that and you do stay stuck in those same; you've met the people at parties. They say the same stories every time. When you see them at the same party, they're telling the same stories every time and they never are able to move on or out of the past or out of the college days or out of, the one time they met a celebrity 55 years ago. They're still talking about that because nothing's come up since or they haven't learned how to move it forward. It's embarrassing.
Chris Beall (23:56):
Yes. Or they don't have the confidence. Because there's a funny thing, what we do when we're closing and it's a really, really awkward thing. It's the hardest thing in the world. We're potentially sacrificing the relationship for the collaboration. As a pure socializer, and some people are pure socializers, were I up here socializer and all I value that was the relationship, I could never get a deal. Because I have to come to a point of saying, "But the purpose of these conversations was to collaborate on doing something together that we can't do alone and we can't do separately so I have to take the risk of sacrificing the relationship and trust you that you are going to catch me when I fall and I moved too fast." And that's where the trust ends up being a two way street. You have to trust me to have your best interests at heart.
And you have to believe that I know more than you do about what it is that we're trying to do otherwise I wouldn't have ambushed you, you would have ambushed me. I have to trust you to correct me when I'm moving too soon in a deal, too soon to the next step of collaboration, whatever it turns out to be. And that's the trust that the non close of the socializer never has. They don't trust the other person to keep them from blowing the relationship up so they stick on this point and just keep hammering it.
Susan Finch (25:25):
It's like my husband on his computer when it's not doing what he wants, he just keeps clicking. He's like, "Stop. Stop it." It can't even catch up with what you're doing to move on and do the next thing because you keep clicking. Stop clicking.
Chris Beall (25:37):
Oh, that's a good one. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. And of course it is really hard to trust technology. But the point of all, this is, look, there's an easy way and a hard way. The easy way is also the most awkward way which is you have to ambush somebody because it puts them in a state where you can build trust quickly in seven seconds and therefore you have a foundation for all future interactions; verbal, digital, billboard put outside their office, sending them a note in the mail, offering them a gift. All that stuff within a trust relationship is actually trivially easy to do well and hard to blow. And so if you do the awkward thing, that's awkward, it's really awkward to throw yourself under the bus. It's really awkward to say I'm a bad thing, but you must because you are. You've ambushed them. You're bad. So just own up to it. It's really awkward to do it fast enough. I know I'm an interruption. So I'm so glad that I caught you. Now I'll be brief. I know I'm an interruption. It's like, boom, done, dead. Boom, dead.
Susan Finch (26:49):
What's that phrase? I'm so glad I caught you. I feel like a prisoner already.
Chris Beall (26:54):
I caught you-
Susan Finch (26:55):
Like a tiger [crosstalk 00:26:56].
Chris Beall (26:55):
You didn't catch me at all.
Susan Finch (27:00):
Right.
Chris Beall (27:00):
You haven't caught me. What are you talking about? But if you told me you know you're an interruption, I hear the bus go over you like this, tha-thump, tha-thump, tha-thump. And I'm good. I don't have to back the bus up. I don't need six more thumps, tha-thump, tha-thump, tha-thump, tha-thump, tha-thump, tha-thump. I'm good. Thank goodness you ran yourself over. Now if you fake it, if you say, "I know I'm a bit of an interruption." That means I didn't really mean it. I got near the bus and when you couldn't see, I pretended I was run over by the bus but actually I just squealed and jumped back and now I'm just another faker in the world and you're not going to trust me. And so it's a subtle business. This is very subtle, but if you're willing to do it, digital media open up, including advertising.
Interestingly enough, it's a delight to see an ad for a company where you just talk to somebody that you now trust about what they do. That's fun. Oh, look, I just saw their ad. I just talked to that guy this morning, that gal this morning. That's really interesting. What a coincidence. So suddenly retargeting is different. I talked to you. I can retarget everybody around you, including you. And most of them, it just goes, eh, whatever. But somebody might say, "Have you seen that ad?" And it's like, "Yeah. I talked to those people yesterday. You know, it was really actually an interesting conversation." Boom, everything's different. Same with social outreach. I reach out to you on LinkedIn after talking with you. Thanks for taking the time to talk with me today. I know we didn't have a lot of time and I guarantee you I will never pitch you on anything on LinkedIn. That would be an exception to the current rule which is, everybody pitches everybody all the time, because-
Chris Beall (29:28):
Clubhouse is fascinating. I think clubhouse is the most interesting thing going on in the world today because it's basically this, social media where you can't be rude.
Susan Finch (29:37):
And you can't be recorded and you can be reshared. People figure it out how to but for the most part, yeah.
Chris Beall (29:43):
Yeah.
Susan Finch (29:44):
And the bios, have you seen the bios and what people do in there? Their bios are about nine inches high and it's filled with every keyword phrase, offer, pitch, discount, every possible link, where to find them with emojis and little this and little that. It's the most decorated. It would make somebody who builds professional resumes just cringe because it looks like a four year old had a party with emojis and just blasted them all over anything incredible about you.
Chris Beall (30:17):
It's like a four-year-old had a party with emojis that were served as sushi and they got sick, threw up all over that thing. It's like emoji vomit.
Susan Finch (30:28):
It really is. So it's an interesting thing, and I find myself attracted to the smaller rooms because I like deeper conversations. I like collaborative conversations rather than the grand standing from the larger rooms and the bigger names where they're pontificating on stuff that I've already heard them say everywhere else. So it is an interesting venue, but I do agree with you, my experience so far has been, it's been a very gracious kind venue at this point.
Chris Beall (30:57):
And it will stay that way because we actually don't have mechanisms in us that allow us to be rude with our voice when we have been identified, especially to a group. That's why panel discussions are such frankly pablum. When I'm invited to be on a panel I always say, "You realize I'm actually going to speak my mind."
Susan Finch (31:22):
Yeah. That happens to me too.
Chris Beall (31:26):
But I'm not going to be mean to anybody. I'm just going to act they're not there, but I will recognize them and say like they said, I'm actually going to be much more polite to the panelists if they're were up on the panel with me than, I don't know, if we were just having a private conversation at a bar. Why? Because I don't want to embarrass them and I don't want to embarrass myself and so we're built to be polite in voice conversations, especially in groups.
Susan Finch (31:52):
You're not because you're just not capable of it. You get kicked out or muted. So it's okay.
Chris Beall (31:57):
Exactly. It's got the appropriate controls and the appropriate hands. I think clubhouse is fascinating and it tells us two things; I think one, text-based communication or pictures, unsolicited, whatever tends to be noisy because it's cheap to do, cheap to reproduce, cheap to copy. And therefore everybody does it for nothing and it's not working so well. And it's actually even worse with work from home where you're already agitated about your kids, your dog, I love your dog, but your dog, whatever. And then on the other side, this video thing is oddly wearing and people are trying to figure out, it's wearing enough that it has a name, Zoom fatigue.
And here's this little slice that's actually the biggest field of all, which is the human voice. The thing that speaks to our insides, that it borders on song that lets us sing to the other person. But somebody once said to me after I came out of a board meeting and it was funny, it was one of my direct reports. He was invited to the board meeting. He said, "What did you do in there?" I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "You saying to that board of directors, it was done with the voice, it was done with the tone, it was done with the cadence and the note and they gave you three million dollars." And I said, "Well, singers make a lot of money."
Susan Finch (33:21):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (33:21):
They do, if you heard. Rockstar means something man, it means something. And the human voice has got this amazing deep ancient range. We just discovered by analysis of the skulls of Neanderthals that they heard the same way that our ancestors and we here, including being able to distinguish certain sounds the sound t from shh from ss from k is really, really hard for most animals to distinguish because of the way their ears and their skulls are constructed.
Susan Finch (34:00):
Right.
Chris Beall (34:01):
But here we have these two branches and we have the [inaudible 00:34:06], we have all these other branches of our family tree that we're finding and language goes back at least that far because that's what that difficult to attain bunch of shaped bones allow us to do is to make these distinctions that are peculiar to language and not very relevant in the worlds of natural sounds. You don't really need this tell a t from a k from a shh from a ss out there in the woods, but you better be able to tell the difference between sit. You know what I mean?
Susan Finch (34:46):
Oh man. You did a post a couple of weeks ago where we were participating in one about spontaneous phone calls and people picking up the phone and being irritated by people that actually call and don't set an appointment to make a phone call first and what has been lost so much in communication. And I think, yeah, we just talked about it with clubhouse and the value of conversation and the gifts that you get from that, that you can't get from data, that you can't get from email from other things because there is no replacement for a conversation and the time that it saves to have a 30 second conversation as opposed to 15 emails to say the same thing.
Chris Beall (35:29):
Or to fail to say the same thing.
Susan Finch (35:30):
Yes.
Chris Beall (35:32):
That's really what the issue comes down to as I read these email threads cut back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and I ask, "Okay. So what is this the equivalent of in a conversation?" And normally it's 30 seconds in which there are five interactions, two of which are corrective, one of which is expansive, and one of which makes a fine distinction that needed to be made in order to get to where you got to go.
That's what we do with each other. We correct each other. No, no, that's not what I meant. Imagine that in an email. No, that's not what I meant. Oh, now you're insulting me. Whereas in the live conversation, that's polite. It's like, "No, no, no. That's not what I meant." And there's a big difference between no in an email and no, no, no, that's not what I meant. No, no, no means I'm trying to help you now.
Susan Finch (36:28):
Right.
Chris Beall (36:28):
I'm working with you, right? They're totally different concepts. Even though one of them has three nos it has a lot less no in it than one no in an email. So this stuff's magic and to abandon the magic in favor of cheap reproduction and absentee landlordism, I don't want to be there. I don't want to have to actually do the dishes. I just want somebody else to take care of everything. So you take care of delivering it and they'll take care of reading and I don't have to do anything and I'm going to go write another one. No, I'm not even going to do that. I'm going to use a template. I'm not even going to do that. I'm going to have a sequence. My sequence know more than I do.
In fact somebody is AB tested every sequence in the world. "Really? How many would that be?" "Well, do the math. There's more interesting sequences of emails you could send them. There are oh, Adams in the universe. It turns out." So I don't think they've all been tested. Pretty sure, but everything in conversation has been tested. It's been tested over tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. It's all been tested. When I say it's all been tested, I'm saying something very different from, it's all been tested. Those are very different things because that's been tested.
Susan Finch (37:50):
Correct. And when I think back, you were just covering that. How many emails are always restating something, finding something, telling somebody where to find it, where you already told them where to find it, where to look for it. I can't think of three conversations in the past month that I've had to have it corrective, and definitely not on video. I haven't had to backtrack on anything. And if I do, it was so not memorable because it was so minor and quickly resolved, it doesn't stick in my head.
Chris Beall (38:23):
Exactly. Because we're urged on the insight to do the correction in real time.
Susan Finch (38:28):
Yes.
Chris Beall (38:30):
It's a closing. Every correction is a little mini closing and we do them all the time. We do. We have catchphrases for them. We all know how to do it. Well actually what I was trying to say, right? We say that. That's a known phrase. I can go look it up on Google, actually what I was trying to say. But if I looked it up on Google, I find a little bit. But if I looked it up in the transcripts of every conversation, if I had them all that had been had in the last day, I'd find 100 million. Actually what I was trying to say.
Susan Finch (39:06):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (39:06):
You know, now that I think of it, it seems to me, huh?
Susan Finch (39:12):
That just reminded me.
Chris Beall (39:12):
That's another one. Just reminded me. Well, at the end of the day, we have these phrases-
Susan Finch (39:20):
[crosstalk 00:39:20] not that. Anything but that.
Chris Beall (39:22):
And it's a bad one, right? But these phrases, even the overused ones, they're ways of saying, this isn't going exactly as I expect it to where I understand it at this point. We need to back up a little bit. Let's back up. Let's slow down. Let's get this right before we go to the next thing and let's do it without any rancor because we need the relationship. So we're just about to break the relationship through a misunderstanding. Let's not do that. Let's let it be a little rubber band, snap it back gently and then we'll fix it up. Get on the same page. How funny that the one thing we can't do with text is get on the same page.
Susan Finch (40:04):
No.
Chris Beall (40:05):
In a conversation we get on the same page easily. We got to make sure we got on the same page so we got off the email where the pages were and we went to the conversation where there's no pages. I think that's a church reference by the way. That's referring to singing the same hymn as everybody else, I think get on the same page because everybody did that. It was a community activity where you needed to be on this or people start doing it, I suppose. Yes, exactly. So let's get on the same page. This stuff to me is fascinating and what's really fascinating is the entire innovation economy depends utterly on it being mastered by salespeople.
Susan Finch (40:45):
Yes.
Chris Beall (40:46):
We have nothing. We have nothing in terms of our ability to move forward, unless salespeople master all of this stuff, which thank goodness they mastered 98% of it just by being humans and learning to speak.
Susan Finch (41:01):
So I think this is a great place to wrap up this episode.
Chris Beall (41:03):
I love it. Let's do it.
Susan Finch (41:04):
All right.
Chris Beall (41:06):
Oh. We're closing everybody. We're closing. We're moving on.
Susan Finch (41:11):
We're going to wrap up this episode of Market Dominance Guys and I'm acting like I'm the host. We don't know who the host was today. We just know we were on it together. We had a great conversation and you can find out more at marketdominanceguys.com. You can also find this show in any podcast venue that you favor, and you can check Chris Beall out, he's over on clubhouse. Look for it when he's there. Set up those alerts. Follow him so you know when he's participating in something. You may want to hear some bonus materials or give him one of your burning questions and let him answer it. Maybe he'll have one for you. We will talk to you all soon. Thank you so much. I'm Susan Finch. I'm the producer of Market Dominance Guys with the esteemed Chris Beall. Chris, thank you for having me on.
Chris Beall (41:54):
Delighted as always Susan.
On this week’s episode of the Marketing Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation about the middle phase in the creation of every startup or new product — being stuck. That’s the stage when things aren’t working out the way you’d envisioned them. That’s when prospects aren’t embracing your concept as you’d hoped they would. That’s when you have that sinking feeling that this whole project might be a terrible, terrible mistake. Something’s wrong! Panicking isn’t going to help the situation, but neither is denial. That can lead to faking that everything is just fine — when you know darn well it isn’t. Listen to Chris’ warning: “It’s hard to be honest once you start faking it.” Corey and Chris encourage you to face the truth, because as they say, “The truth is the boss!”
Come listen to how to use your resources to get an honest assessment about why you’re stuck so that you can start moving toward getting your project back in flow. You’ll learn these details and other great advice in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Stuck in the Middle with Denial.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
On this week's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation about the middle phase in the creation of every start-up or new product being stuck. That's the stage when things aren't working out the way you'd envision them. That's when prospects aren't embracing your concept as you'd hope they would. That's when you have that sinking feeling that this whole project might be a terrible, terrible mistake, something's wrong. Panicking isn't going to help the situation but neither is denial that can lead to faking that everything is just fine when you know darn well it isn't. Listen to Chris's warning. It's hard to be honest once you start faking it.
Corey and Chris encourage you to face the truth because as they say, "The truth is the boss." Come listen to how to use your resources to get an honest assessment of why you're stuck so that you can start moving forward getting your project back inflow. You'll learn these details and other great advice in this week's episode of Market Dominance Guys, Stuck In The Middle With Denial.
Chris Beall (01:40):
Oh, yeah. But what do we do when we're stuck for too long? We go back and we fake flow?
Corey Frank (01:56):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (01:56):
That's what we do. We fake flow and faking flow is the death knell of a start-up. You're dead if you fake flow because where you're going to go is somewhere and where the gold is somewhere else.
Corey Frank (02:08):
And also you have these quarterly or every eight weeks or so meetings with your board as a start-up, right. And we both been there where you got to give him something, you got to shoot a hostage, you got to give him some red meat, you got to make a virgin offering or something or you have to fake it. And that's the worst because you're an ear inauthentic in all of those and it sounds like... Which is probably going to butcher it. I think it was Lao-Tzu who had this Zen syllogism he says, "I know nothing, I know everything, I know nothing."
Chris Beall (02:46):
Yes, yeah.
Corey Frank (02:46):
And the stages that folks go through, right. And some folks will never get past the first or the second stage. So when you look at that from the makeup of a start-up so we drill a little deeper here. That has to be a safe place for Cherryl to be able to go to the CEO of the company in this new position she's in and say, "Hey boss, I'm just not feeling it. I think we need," "What do you mean it's not feeling it?" Right. And then there's got to be a level of humility there to incorporate other folks. So how do you, you mentioned earlier that a start-up of one it's a tough and lonely proposition to do and arguably you could say that the success curve is a little more elongated than one with multiple folks but what are you doing to kind of surround yourself with those kinds of folks? We talked early on and at some of the earlier episodes last year about politics and bcc'ing emails and all that kind of stuff.
We don't have to go into it now but right now if I'm going to start-up and I don't necessarily have those types of folks, what can I do to get it? How can I navigate those waters to showcase folks that, "Hey, maybe I'm stuck and we need to break out of this otherwise we are faking it".
Chris Beall (04:04):
Yeah. I think that the trick to start-ups is like the trick to everything. One is tough, one person it's a tough business, right. I used to be as you know pretty serious rock climber mountaineer. That's a very, very, very dangerous game to do alone. Not only because there's no rope to catch you but primarily because you can't trust your mind and you think you can but where are you going to check it, right. Where are you going to check it? Where are you going to figure out whether you're doing something based on fear, on self-induced bravado, on you're tired you just don't want to think about it anymore so you're going to try it. It's a dangerous, dangerous world. Start–ups are a lot like that, we did an episode in which you brought up the Free Solo your pitch, right. Alex, up there climbing a El Capitan's-
Corey Frank (04:56):
El Capitan's, yeah.
Chris Beall (04:57):
Free Soloing it. Well, if you watch the movie you see that he's not really alone, alone in that endeavor, right. He's got people that he talks to, he's a kind of guy who can trust his own mind by the way almost but he's too smart to trust only his own mind. So he has other people to talk with and I think that even that kind of thing it's not the rope, it's the relationship that allows you to go. And what do you have to have? You got to have somebody who sees the world a little differently from you is on your side. And is sincerely going to come forward with their own enlightenment and their own ignorance and you can put the two together and you got a shot, you really do have a shot.
It's like trying to walk on one leg, it's just a problem. You're not really built for it, we're really built to go in pairs and go do things. You and I doing this show is a good example. I can do one of these by myself, you can do one by yourself, that'd probably okay but I don't think we'd be on episode God knows whatever we're on here, 70 or whatever it is by now. There is the covering of each other's weaknesses but there's also the knowing that there's somebody you can go to in order to get unstuck. Because if you really look at these flow states, at these three states, right. The flow, the stuck and the waiting, we don't need much help waiting, we can always find something to do, we just need to know that when we're waiting you need to find something to do, right. We don't need a huge amount of help in knowing that we're stuck as long as we're honest but it's hard to be honest once you start faking it.
And so when you have an external audience like a board of directors like you said or whatever... I remember when I joined this company something happened here which is I joined as a head of products and a few days later sort of the whole engineering team, which is fairly small up and quit. And a few days after that there was a board meeting. Well, between those two we didn't fake it, we actually did some things. We hired a couple of people, we read all the code. I spent a weekend, we read 300,000 lines of code. We built the system repeatedly, made sure we can build and start it, build and start it, build and start it, knock it down, kill it, start it again. That's the kind of stuff you want to be able to do in a live system that's servicing lots of people and went to the board meeting.
That's pretty tempting in a board meeting like that to fake it. "Hey Chris, you lost your whole engineering team, what's up?" I was like, "Well, what's up is, here's what we're doing, here's why I'm pretty sure that we can do things, start it, stop, keep the thing a live, here's what we don't know but here's the recommended course of action." But it is so tempting under that kind of pressure to either cave into somebody or-
Corey Frank (07:39):
Oh, for sure.
Chris Beall (07:41):
Else or whatever and so part of what you're hiring for or partnering with is somebody who has the drive, they got to have the drive without the engine this whole start-up thing is stupid you can't do it, it's just too hard.
Corey Frank (07:55):
Right.
Chris Beall (07:56):
Not to think a lot of people are going to help you. You got to have that big motor and the motors got to kind of be willing to turn by itself. You get up in the morning if you don't feel that every day and you haven't felt that every day since you were pretty young, don't do start-ups it just doesn't work out, it just doesn't trust me. But say you do, you've got to get another person with that kind of drive and then the next part about the relationship that's got to work is, you've got to have a framework for talking about being inflow, getting stuck. You have to have the words for it. You have to have words about things like, "When are we guessing?" You have to use words like ignorant.
The word I use today with Cherryl was I said and was talking to her and got Jon Campbell and I said, "We're just doing this like total idiot. We're just like dummies here. Obviously the thing to do is to talk to somebody else and here we are talking to each other. Let's not do this the hard way, let's go the person that we would be selling to, except we already sold to that person and talk to that person," right. Well, but you have to use the words if you don't use a word like, "We're being idiots here."
Corey Frank (09:06):
Sure.
Chris Beall (09:07):
Then nobody feels safe coming forward and saying, "I feel like I'm a little stuck or I'm being an idiot or whatever," Right. You have to use the vocabulary of truth.
Corey Frank (09:17):
Well, and you as the leader, right. To be the first one to level a degree of humility that it's safe to be humble, it's safe not to know allows you to probably have that outcome's raiser level of clarity to say, "Wait a minute it's probably right in front of us, let's look elsewhere."
Chris Beall (09:38):
Yeah. And when I hire people this is throughout the whole process I always tell them this I say, "Look, you're going to love it here or you're going to hate it here. If you're going to hate it here let's figure out how to have you not join." So you wouldn't be talking to me unless you're qualified because people don't get to talk to me unless they're qualified. That's another process I don't go through that, that would be crazy. That's like qualifying on a cold call, right. The list got to be good or not good we're not going to find out if we qualify on the cold call, that's crazy. We got to set the meeting and let qualification happen in discovery. This is the same problem. So here we are now, we're in discovery and we're going to discover something, you're going to discover whether you want to work for somebody like me in an organization like this because we can't avoid that you're working for me.
There's nothing, no words are going to make it go away. I'm the CEO, you're stuck or we're stuck with me. We can't make me not be that guy, right. But I can tell you how it works and how it works you might love and you might hate, it's about a 50, 50. And you might love it because you'll think, "This is just what I've always wanted," you might hate it and think, "Wow, this feels really kind of exposed and maybe a little harsh." And one of the things I tell folks is, "Look, we don't really report to each other. This is not the strict hierarchy that's about you tell so-and-so what you did, they tell you what to do that's isn't here." We report essentially to our real boss which is the truth as we can ascertain it.
The truth is a pretty good boss and the truth will evolve along with us. So it's a boss that keeps up, it doesn't fall behind. The truth by its very nature will keep up with changing circumstances, changing markets, COVID can come along, you still can have the truth as your boss the day after the pandemic hits just like you did the day before. You might not be able to ascertain it so easily, you may have to go through more effort to find it but it's still the thing that we could report to. However I tell them, "When we're out of time and we got to make a decision and we're just out of time, we don't have enough knowledge to make the decision that's the definition of being stuck, we guess and here's how we guess, I guess."
I guess that's it. And here's the corrupt part, am the person who says that we're stuck and we're out of time, we don't have a... I declare the guess that it's totally corrupt I get it.
Corey Frank (12:02):
Right.
Chris Beall (12:04):
But it's a singularity and you have to accept that coming in and if I ask-
Corey Frank (12:07):
Risk it i guess.
Chris Beall (12:10):
And I'm guessing. Well, but first of all I'm going to call it a guess. We're not going to wrap it up and say, "Our analysis shows this, this consultant said this." Maybe we did an analysis, maybe we have a consultant but if we're guessing I promise you I will tell you that we're guessing and we delegate the guessing to me. And then I'm going to guess and we're going to treat my guess as a fact of the world as the truth regardless of whether it is or not. And that's your commitment when you come on board because the alternative is we can't get unstuck when staying stuck is fatal.
Corey Frank (12:49):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:49):
Staying stuck can be fatal. I don't know what to do and the right thing to do is to stop the car before you go off the cliff, you drive off the cliff.
Corey Frank (12:57):
Sure.
Chris Beall (12:59):
So, fatal mistakes are the ones that we should try hardest to avoid through design, right?
Corey Frank (13:03):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (13:04):
Don't avoid fatal mistakes through diligence, always avoid them through design.
Corey Frank (13:08):
Always through design, yes and I think that's again the impetus of the show is the failure to dominate markets.
Chris Beall (13:16):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (13:17):
Always will lead, let's add this new axiom to the pile as well so.
Chris Beall (13:21):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (13:21):
Okay.
Chris Beall (13:22):
It's an interesting thing. So the cycle time thing around going from... And using the words, use your words as they say to little kids. The word flow is a good word, we're inflow that's a great word. The word stuck is a great word it means something, it's a term of art it actually means we don't know enough to continue moving forward confidently.
Corey Frank (13:42):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (13:42):
Just a term of art, right. Waiting is waiting, we're just waiting, we're waiting for something. We need something because until we have that something we can't move forward. Now some people are always waiting because they think they need everything before they can do anything, don't hire those people. Such people are problematic, right.
Corey Frank (14:01):
And by the way I know the truth from what I hear you saying the truth is your boss.
Chris Beall (14:06):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (14:06):
But I know that come five o'clock, right. You have a different boss and that is your bride and it's her birthday today so we will be wrapping this up in a minute because I think Helen's birthday trumps the truth, Helen's birthday is the truth. We always talked about the next book after Market Dominance Guys, or the subtitle for the Market Dominance Guys' book was going to be called Pivot Jesus Pivot. But I think maybe the subheading the Pivot Jesus Pivot would be stuck inflow waiting and faking it in start-ups today. I'll tell you what that would be, that'd be a title then-
Chris Beall (14:43):
That'd be pretty good.
Corey Frank (14:43):
Tell me.
Chris Beall (14:43):
Ideal on the title, Pivot Jesus Pivot. I don't know if anybody gets that but if we were to tell everybody what the joke behind the punchline or whatever it is, is it's like If God were a VC he'd be saying, "Pivot Jesus Pivot."
Corey Frank (15:01):
That's right, "Not enough people are buying into your products."
Chris Beall (15:04):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (15:05):
"You probably need to take a look at it." So I love it. Want to tell you what Chris, this was supposed to be a two-parter and we'll continue the next part because what we want to springboard into what we talked about today about these different states in making progress also is tied into what we want to talk about next time, which is discovery calls. And discovery calls for a start-up because many of the aspects that you're talking about, about being stuck or inflow or waiting or humility or authenticity or status alignment is just as critical when we get to the discovery process. So I think that's what I'm going to look forward to next time on the Market Dominance Guys talking to you, again the surge of sales, the profit of profit and again my personal favorite, the resputing of revenue so till next time.
This week, the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, walk you through the three states of cycle time for start-up businesses or for any company that’s trying to launch a new product or service. There’s in flow. There’s stuck. And there’s waiting. Using an example from his own company’s experience launching Flight School, their brand-new sales-rep training program, Chris tells what happened when they thought they were in flow and ready to set meetings for discovery calls, but soon found that prospects didn’t respond as enthusiastically as expected to what his company was offering. In other words, they were stuck.
But what was the problem? It’s a great program! Why weren’t their prospects seeing the value of what was being offered? Chris explains that it’s often necessary to put your own narcissism aside in order to clearly look at all the possible reasons why you’re not moving toward success as quickly as you think you should be. Only then can you be open to exploring and utilizing all the resources that might help you get unstuck. As he says, “You need to plumb the depths of your ignorance! You need knowledge!” As practical and helpful as usual, our Market Dominance Guys offer advice on this common problem encountered by almost every startup company. Join them for today’s episode, “How to Get from Stuck to Unstuck.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:38):
This week the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, walk you through the three states of cycle time for startup businesses, or for any company that's trying to launch a new product or service. There's in flow, there's stuck, and there's waiting. Using an example from his own company's experience launching Flight School, their brand new sales rep training program, Chris tells what happened when they thought they were in flow, and ready to set meetings for discovery calls, but soon found that prospects didn't respond as enthusiastically as expected to what his company was offering. In other words, they were stuck.
Announcer (01:12):
But what was the problem? It's a great program. Why weren't their prospects seeing the value of what was being offered? Chris explains that it's often necessary to put your own narcissism aside, in order to clearly look at all the possible reasons why you're not moving towards success as quickly as you think you should be. Only then can you be open to exploring and utilizing all the resources that might help you get unstuck.
Announcer (01:36):
As he says, "You need to plumb the depths of your ignorance, you need knowledge." As practical and helpful as usual, our Market Dominance Guys offer advice on this common problem encountered by almost every startup company. Join them for today's episode, How To Get from Stuck to Unstuck.
Corey Frank (02:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the ... I used to say the sage of sales and the profit of profit and the duke of discovery, but I think what we're going to talk about today, Chris, it's more like the Coronado of closing, the Pizzaro of profit, and let's say the Diaz of discovery. And so we're going to talk a little bit about exploring and discovering things, and the process of maybe persistence and cycling.
Corey Frank (02:34):
And before we even get to that, it's funny because, Chris, you and I were talking before we hit the record button, that you needed to turn off your phone because it was discovered by you that even if your phone's in airplane mode that you can still get calls. I believe the phrase was, "Let me turn off my phone, because it's in airplane mode, and I can still get calls when it's in airplane mode."
Corey Frank (02:59):
And we were joking that if that was a phrase mentioned at a cocktail party 15 years ago, I think there'd probably be a different phrase that people would be saying to you. What would they say to you if you mentioned something like that?
Chris Beall (03:13):
I think somewhere between the loony bin and burn the witch.
Corey Frank (03:18):
Burn the witch. Indeed, indeed. So I think this concept to discovery, Chris, and we've talked about this off air many, many times, you've helped me with this in my various startups that I've created here, is that the discovery process and even the top of funnel cold calling breakthrough process, it's different for startups than it is for more mature companies, is it not?
Chris Beall (03:44):
It is, it is. Everything's different for startups, because of the depth of your ignorance about your own offering and what it's worth to anybody, even whether you can truly deliver, because if you don't really know what it is, and who might want to take advantage of it, you actually don't quite know if you can deliver it. You're starting with kind of a conjecture, I'll call it a narcissistic conjecture, right?
Chris Beall (04:06):
So what's narcissistic about it? Well, you believe it, nobody else in the world does and the only thing you really know about it is I came up with it so it must be great, and that's pretty narcissistic, right? And then the conjecture is a conjecture, you don't really know. It's somewhere between a conjecture and a hypothesis, but you come up with something and you either are foolish enough to actually build it, or you're smart enough to go talk to people about it and see if they'll buy it before you build it, which is a really good idea. You're throwing darts in a dark room, and you're hoping to hear a squeal every once in a while.
Corey Frank (04:39):
Right, right. Well, this concept, this process that I go through, right? It is a little bit of the states of the unknown, unknown. I don't know what I don't know, certainly. But once I realize that there is something that I don't know, how do I go about maybe these cycle times? How do I know what state I'm at in order to potentially make progress? Because I may not even be aware that I need help, or how many cycles do I use in the same screenplay or the same discovery process before I realize, "Wait a minute, I may be a little stuck here."
Chris Beall (05:13):
It's interesting because there's a numbers outcome, right? I mean, if you're trying to set meetings, and you go 35, 40 conversations and you can't set a meeting, there's a mismatch between your message or how you're delivering it and your list. If you're pretty good at the message, and by the way, using a non-calibrated person to do early market exploration is just dumb, right?
Chris Beall (05:33):
It's like hiring a sales person is the first thing you do when you think you have a product. You're not testing your products fit in the market, you're testing whether you're any good at hiring salespeople. And that's not a very interesting question, that's not the first order question of a startup, am I good at it at a hiring salespeople? The first order question is, anybody out there seeing a value in this to try it and pay me for it?
Chris Beall (05:57):
I mean, that's kind of it, right? The first step there is, will they take a meeting? And if they're not taking meetings, you know you're stuck. That's really, really simple. And by the way, the three stages that I see all progress being in, the phases that they get into, are three. I wish there were four, but this is the case where three is the right number. Number one is you're in flow.
Chris Beall (06:18):
Usually you can tell you're in flow because the emotional state that goes along with being in flow is that you don't notice you're in flow. So if you don't notice you're in flow and things are just kind of moving along, you're probably in flow. That is, you're doing the next thing that makes sense, you're doing the next thing that makes sense. I'm not saying you're optimized, by the way. Optimized is completely different. It isn't a state of making progress, it's a state of the machine itself, in which you're trying to make progress.
Chris Beall (06:46):
My machine is optimized, my process is optimized, but I, myself, I'm in flow, it's going. Like right now, I'm talking, I'm in flow. You know me, when I'm talking, I'm in flow 99.97% of the time, and other people wish that I would get out of flow so they can get in flow.
Corey Frank (07:03):
Well, as I always say, you put the quarter in Chris's machine, you got to listen for the whole song, so that's how it works.
Chris Beall (07:08):
That's right. So the next state that we tend to get in is stuck, and stuck is a funny state and we did a whole episode on this once. Stuck is the state where I actually can't move forward, I'm not moving forward because I am missing knowledge. I don't know something that I need to know to move forward. And one of the things that'll take you out of flow is getting stuck, realizing that it's not quite working well enough, you're not really flowing, or even more commonly among startup people you're fooling yourself.
Chris Beall (07:40):
The narcissistic part tells you you're doing better than you are. They call it happy ears in sales. Happy ears is when you're hearing good things, and an objective listener is going, "Really?" That just sounded like politeness to me, I don't think they really are resonating with your message. I think they're just being polite, right? Or you're talking to somebody who doesn't know how to say, "Uh-huh (negative). That doesn't make sense to me."
Chris Beall (08:05):
So you feel it though, and then you get to a point where it's like, "Okay, I'm actually stuck. I don't know what to do next, I need knowledge." And when we get stuck, we've got to do something special. And then there's waiting, and when we're waiting we should find something else to do. That one's really easy, but most people don't have the emotional stamina to accept a waiting state, and so they keep gnawing on the bone that doesn't have any meat on it. It's just time to stop and go somewhere else.
Chris Beall (08:33):
By the way, this is a total aside, one of the cool things about our product ConnectAndSell, is the waiting state is a literal state. You push a button and you wait to get to talk to somebody. So you actually get to practice waiting, and if you're really, really clever or optimized, then what you do is you do something while you're waiting, something else, preferably something that can be interrupted because you're going to be interrupted.
Chris Beall (08:59):
So the other day, for instance, one of our premier users, probably the premier user of ConnectAndSell, is the chief sales officer of one of the largest insurance brokerages in the world, was using the ConnectAndSell mobile app as the first user in the wild to use it in anger. And he was talking to, having conversations with the CEOs and CFOs of all these SPACs. So, SPACs, Special Purpose Acquisition Company, these things are bags of money that are seeking a company to acquire or to combine with. They call it an initial business combination. And then I guess they have special insurance needs, the risk needs, I would call them.
Chris Beall (09:41):
And so he's using our mobile app and he called me up and he said, "Hey, just had a really interesting experience. I found out that by using my waiting time on the mobile app, I could get something really, really valuable done." I said, "What's that?" He said, "I could talk with my daughter while she's cooking." She said, "Whenever I was trying to get ahold of people before I'd be heads down, dialing, navigating, whatever I'm doing, and I couldn't talk to her, now I'm waiting to be interrupted, all I had to do is hold this thing up and say, "I'm in this application, I'm waiting to be interrupted, is it okay if we talk until that happens?"
Chris Beall (10:16):
He says, "We had a great conversation for an hour and a half, reconnecting with my daughter in a way I wouldn't have." So waiting time is super valuable, as long as you don't keep gnawing on the bone, as long as you back up and go and look for some beans to eat or something. There's something else to do. The troublesome one is stuck. And the reason stuck is hard is you've got to decide you're going to learn. You've got to decide to stop doing and not switch to something else, because when you switch to something else and you're stuck, you're just avoiding the real situation, which is you're stuck. And you're not going to get any less stuck by just going to do something else, maybe it'll come to you, but usually you don't.
Chris Beall (10:57):
So the question in a startup is, "When I'm stuck ..." Because I'm often stuck as a startup company or a startup effort, as a state of manifest ignorance, right? You start the big pile of ignorance, and you get a spoon out and you start moving ignorance around in the plate to see if you can find what's inside the ignorance. And eventually, sometimes you run into something go, "Clunk, what's that?" And that's like product market fit, or don't do that again or something cool like that.
Chris Beall (11:22):
So here you are all ignorant and trying to make progress, and you recognize I'm stuck, what do you do? So we had a great, great example today of the number one thing to do when you're stuck, which is with a very short cycle time, try to learn something. So how can we learn things? We can learn things from books, we can learn them from podcasts. I've heard there's a podcast out there about market dominance. Somebody said they learned one thing in 15 hours of listening to it, that's fabulous, right? So we can learn from various sources.
Chris Beall (11:58):
But the number one source we can learn from is another person who might be an expert or have been there done that, or whatever, and we have a conversation with them. Now, the typical way of doing this is long cycle time. You come up with a list of people you can learn from maybe. This is if you're real smart, right? You actually say, "I'm going to go and I'm going to learn from them." And you send them an email and then now you're in a waiting state, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, while they get back to you.
Chris Beall (12:26):
The problem with learning is it's something that works best, not like revenge. Like revenge is a dish best served cold, right? That's what they say. But learning is a dish best eaten hot. The hot conversation is going to catch you in the frame of mind where you're going to ask the best questions, because they're the questions that come from your deepest ignorance.
Chris Beall (12:50):
When your ignorance is right in front of you, when you're stuck, and you ask somebody to enlighten you, it does something to them. It causes them to want to help you, because you're so manifestly in trouble. You're just such a weak little puppy dog. "Help me, help me." You don't have to even put it like that, you just be straight up, and people like to help people.
Chris Beall (13:13):
And so that cycle can be really quick. And today we had a super example. So today we're launching a brand new product, actually we launched it on Tuesday, brand new product. It's called Flight School. And what Flight School is, is something we've been doing for a while, and we've decided to put a wrapper around and say, "Let's kind of take the ConnectAndSell thing and put it inside of a class instead of take the ConnectAndSell thing and have people use it, and then maybe bring them some instruction."
Chris Beall (13:44):
They're very different ideas, they're similar, but they're very different ideas. And I've resisted it for years. Manny Medina, the CEO at Outreach, gosh, four years ago, three years ago, something like that in Seattle, he asked me to come up and have a drink with him. The drink was bourbon, and this was back before my fiance had taught me how to drink bourbon. So I only knew how to drink single malt scotch whiskey. But he said, "No, you drink it. They put these bitters in it and this and that." And I'm going, man, my idea of mixing a drink is you pour it a little bit, have a little bit.
Chris Beall (14:18):
But I tried and I listened to him and he said, "You've got to start a training company, man." I said, "Why is that?" And he said, "Well, because all of our customers are stuck." He actually said they're stuck, because their reps need to learn to talk on the phone. And you guys clearly are experts at talking on the phone, so start a training division or something, please?" And I said, "Nah, I'm not going to do that, plenty of trainers out there, tons of trainers. Everybody trains cold calling, this doesn't make any sense." Right?
Chris Beall (14:47):
And so I left him, he was all disappointed. I don't think he's ever bought me at bourbon since, but he might have. Still a good friend. And so it kind of gnawed on me though, because he's a really, really smart guy. Obviously very successful, he has raised a ton of money at Outreach, they're doing really well. We partner with them, we love them. So I was like, "Wow." It's still bothering me, right?
Chris Beall (15:09):
So then we start delivering training a little bit at a time, and then we have this epiphany with a bankrupt company in Texas that needed help, and I offered a Monday and Friday unlimited for a small amount of money for a month, because I wanted to see if we could help him keep the company open and keep their employees employed. And suddenly it's like, "Oh, well wait a minute, if we're going to do that on Monday, we better train the living daylights out of them on Fridays."
Chris Beall (15:34):
And suddenly we had this four sessions of blitzing coach, with a lot of preparation in between, voila! Four sessions, first one's the first part of the conversation that we're working on. The second one, that's the seven seconds everybody talks about to get trust. The second part is what we call the 27 seconds, the value piece, we called it free flight take off, free flight. You see the picture is starting to emerge, why do we call it flight school?
Chris Beall (16:01):
Third one is, how do you ask for the meeting, practicing that, landing the airplane. And the fourth one is handling turbulence, right? There's always lots and lots of objections. And so we said, let's offer this thing, but we didn't package it. It was just something we did. And we did about 30 of them, and the effect was profound. There was a company in the industrial air compressor space that took the entire group of professional sellers, I think about 100 of them, through this Flight School program, and they'd never really sold on the phone before, and they were effective and they had fun and they made money during the training. Well, money in the form of fresh new business, new meetings. What kind of training delivers money?
Chris Beall (16:46):
So we're really excited, we got to package this thing up, I need somebody to sell it. Now I am established as this guy who can actually hire a salesperson. So it's safe. Do not try this at home. If you're not sure about the step, you got to do it yourself. But I was pretty sure I'd been through 30 of them. I'd sold a bunch of them myself, so I hired a professional seller. Her name is Cheryl Turner, she's as good as anybody in the world, maybe better than anybody. By the way, her secret power is she feels quite correctly like she's anyone's peer. So when Oren Klaff talks about a status alignment-
Corey Frank (17:22):
Status alignment, yup.
Chris Beall (17:22):
She can status align up or down anywhere, because she naturally, correctly, morally, ethically, deeply, personally, professionally feels like she is the peer of any human being on earth. And therefore it comes across in her conversations. So given that I'm going out and I don't know, we're going to call on managers, I want to go after big companies. Why? Because it's kind of hard to get something like ConnectAndSell, which goes so fast, it causes process change, to get embedded in a big company.
Chris Beall (17:52):
Some have done it and they've done it well, but it's a little hard, so why not offer something a little easier that they still get the good effect, which is this blitz and coach kind of training. So I need somebody who can go all the way up, sell to CEOs, come down, sell to managers, Managers at big companies are like CEOs of little companies. In fact, I'm a good example, I'm a CEO of a pretty small company, some double digits, millions of dollars with some number other than a one at the beginning.
Chris Beall (18:19):
And my fiance is sales manager, is what she calls herself, at a big company, one of the biggest in the world. Well, my quota is whatever it is that I, as the person running the business, trying to do next year. So I think, I don't know, more kind of, I guess eight figures in one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight figures kind of stuff, but not nine. Hers is 10, okay? She's got like three commas, that's just her patch itself. So she gets the office and I get the spare bedroom, as you can see, because we go by natural hierarchy, the producers get the good stuff anyway.
Chris Beall (18:59):
So anyway, it's interesting you don't know where you're going to call, so you need a really robust caller who sees themselves as a peer of anybody's not going to be put off their feed. But you know what else do you need is somebody who doesn't have happy ears, but goes after it. So that's really, really tricky. So I got that, Cheryl does that. Boom, she goes after, she set three meetings in her first morning and then calls me up and says, "I don't know if this is working."
Chris Beall (19:30):
Now, imagine that. So Tuesday, she gets in the company, I'm really bad as an onboarder, so it takes her like an extra day. Get her some lists, she starts calling yesterday, that's Thursday. Three meetings in the morning, but she feels it's not quite in flow. Now, that's how you know you have a real profession. It's not because they're hesitant or have any reluctance or any of that stuff, it's like this could be clicking better and it's early.
Corey Frank (20:40):
It's not necessarily dial the contact, dial the meeting type of rates, it's how would you describe that, Chris? What is it, you get a feeling that Cheryl has or that folks like that have to know that they may be stuck, and they don't necessarily know that they're in stuck. Or worse, or excuse me, better is they're stuck, but the other folks in their party on the team don't agree? "What you mean you're stuck, you've got three meetings?"
Chris Beall (21:12):
And I was that other person. I'm going great, three meetings, and she says, "Uh-huh (negative). Nope, boss, not quite there. I'll keep doing it, but I want to give you some feedback." So that's what she said. And it's kind of interesting, there's a way of doing startups that's really paradoxically odd, shall I say? And that is, you got to have drive energy going somewhere, but you have to be ready on a dime, not to start on a dime, turn on a dime, but often to stop on a dime just for a moment to assess.
Chris Beall (21:49):
I recall going sailing with Helen the very first time I went sailing with her, and that she's a real sailor, and I'm a sack of potatoes, right? But hopefully I'm a sack of potatoes that if you put a personal flotation device on me, I'll be a floating sack of potatoes, which is better than the sinking kind. And so there was a little problem with something up on the mast and the main sail and all this, of which I've learned since, but I didn't know anything at the time.
Chris Beall (22:17):
And she went toward it fast and then stopped. And I thought what's that about, right? Most people when they run towards something, they're going toward it like it's an emergency. All she was doing was getting close enough to see the details and assess the situation. She was going to close the distance in order to get the maximum information and then stop on a dime, assess, and then take a hypothesis and act on it. And it was remarkable to me as an example of a very effective startup style of problem solving.
Chris Beall (22:48):
So you have this drive, but you're not just dumb, just beating your head against a wall, but you don't give up either. It's really tricky. This is why startups tend to fail actually, is that having this combo, right? Drive, but without bullheadedness, how do you get that? And the way you really get it is you got to have somebody else. This is why very rarely do one person startups succeed. They're like marriages in a sense that you got to have somebody cover your weakness and your blind spots.
Chris Beall (23:19):
And we all have blind spots. When you're busy doing this, it's kind of hard to do this and vice versa. So anyway, Cheryl came to me, and said, "I'm kind of stuck." And we went through this process. And the thing I wanted to get to is the cycle time. So the normal thing in corporations that I see is, I need to know something. I go out and I find some people that might be able to help me. I might write an email to them, because I already know them, they're going to answer me.
Chris Beall (23:43):
And the cycle time for getting to the first conversation where somebody might help me might be a day or two days, or if it's a weekend, calendar time, it might be three or four or five days because people are busy. They don't hear that in your voice, and you're trying to be polite, "Hey, I could use some help. I'm facing this situation." We've all seen those emails. I get more of them than the average person probably, but we all see them. We see them both ways. We do them and we see them.
Chris Beall (24:10):
But I think in a startup, and actually in any situation, because every situation is a startup, all we really do is startups, everything worth doing is something relatively new, because otherwise it'd be old hat and somebody else would be doing it. So here we are, we're doing something new, we're not quite sure that it's right, that we know enough to do it well. We think we're in flow, but are we sure we're in flow?
Chris Beall (24:31):
And what we did was I said, "Let's bring somebody else into the conversation, right now, while we're talking in the Zoom." We're in a Zoom, boom, "John Campbell, come on in." Why John? He's our head of product, but he's a former head of training. So maybe he'd have a perspective, because we're selling a training product, right? We don't really know how to sell training products. "John, if we were selling to you, what would this be like?" Get him involved, we're still not there. Cheryl's a lot like, "That's interesting, but it's not enough. We've changed some words, we've done this, we've done that, but not quite enough to make me feel like, yeah, I should just go do it again."
Chris Beall (25:09):
Still have everybody on, add one more person. I finally go, "Huh, wait a minute, there's this person who works for Sharp electronics." And I won't use her name right now, because she might not want me to, but she might later. And she's the head of all the sales training there, she's absolutely brilliant, hard driving, and I've been on multiple test drives and flight schools with her, and Flight School is a thing that is kind of a thing over there at Sharp Business Solutions, and they're sort of rolling it out.
Chris Beall (25:39):
So I thought, well, that's who we successfully sold it to before, and we didn't even know we were selling it. Let's find out what she would think as the buyer in a cold call. So we'll go back in time and say, "Imagine somebody's cold calling you, how should they get you intrigued in a meeting? What should go into the breakthrough line?" And we did that. Did we come up with something? Almost.
Chris Beall (26:04):
But Cheryl's still like, "Almost, but I feel like that's the stuff that would go in discovery, not the stuff that would go in a cold call." And then we have the breakthrough and the breakthrough is, "Cheryl, your own story is a story, you used to be the number one appointment setter at insidesales.com, but now Zand. The CEO, Jim Steele, came to you to find out how you do what you do, why are you killing it, and other people are killing it less? So you are that person, you are that go-to person. When you experienced ConnectAndSell in a blitz and coach session, it was a test drive, not a flight school, what was your experience like, how did it change your life? Because that's your story, and you can tell it undeniably and answer to an objection. And you can say at the very least, this is what it feels like to go through it. This is what it did for me, so much that I joined the company and now I'm making my career selling this."
Corey Frank (27:00):
Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.
Chris Beall (27:02):
So that's where we got, I think it's a good answer. We'll find out, right? But at least for Cheryl-
Corey Frank (27:07):
It's authentic. It's authentic and it's empathetic, it's novel, it's all the things you look for. And frankly, there's just enough tension in there too where, "Listen, I'm already on this journey and on this path, and look at me now, your team could be me." In essence, right? So as we know from Orin as well, right? You need humor, intrigue, curiosity, but a fair amount of tension. And I think what you guys have discovered there, certainly has all four. But that cycle time in a traditional organization would have been weeks or maybe even months.
Chris Beall (27:47):
And maybe never.
Corey Frank (27:49):
And maybe never.
Chris Beall (27:50):
Maybe never, because when you're stuck for too long, there's pressure to do something, and to do something is actually the fourth state that I don't even put in my list, because I don't accept it. It's called faking it. I hate to say it, but I think that phrase fake it till you make it drives me nuts. Because faking it is not a way of getting to making it. Doing it as well as you understand honestly, and then understanding whether it's working or not as best you can, and getting other people's viewpoint on that, that is not faking it. Faking it as when you're doing it as best you can, and you claim to yourself and others that you're really doing it, because it's about how they think about you. And I'm not a fan, but what do we do when we're stuck for too long? We go back and we fake flow. That's what we do, we fake flow. And faking flow is the death knell of a startup.
Chris Beall and Corey Frank, our Market Dominance Guys, explore the subject of artificial intelligence taking over jobs held by humans. It’s an emotional issue, to be sure. But instead of looking at this as an either/or concern, the Market Dominance Guys take a different tack by asking,” What do humans do well? What do machines do well? And what can they do together?” You may be thinking, “Wait a minute! Using AI will help us run our business much more cheaply than keeping all those humans on our payroll.” If so, Chris asks you to take a few steps back and look at the big picture by asking yourself, “What’s my main goal here?” In other words, should you be concentrating on how to operate your company more cheaply, or should you be thinking about what will help you dominate your market? And what skill sets are required for your company to do that?
Using a sales department as an example, Chris and Corey discuss the different cluster of skills needed for each type of job in that division and which ones can be handled by either humans or artificial intelligence — or by a combination of both. As usual, you can trust the Market Dominance Guys to steer you in the right direction when it comes to dominating YOUR market, just as they do on today’s podcast, “The Right Skills for the Job.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
our Market Dominance Guys, explore the subject of artificial intelligence taking over jobs, held by humans. It's an emotional issue to be sure, but instead of looking at this as an either or concern, the Market Dominance Guys takes a different tack by asking what to humans do well, what do machines do well? And what can they do together?
Announcer (00:58):
You may be thinking, "Wait a minute, using AI will help us run our business much more cheaply than keeping all those humans on our payroll." If so, Chris asks you to take a few steps back and look at the big picture by asking yourself, "What's my main goal here?" In other words, should you be concentrating on how to operate your company more cheaply? Or should you be thinking about what will help you dominate your market and what skill sets are required for your company to do that? Using a sales department, as an example, Chris and Corey discuss the different cluster of skills needed for each type of job in that division, and which ones can be handled by either humans or artificial intelligence or by a combination of both. As usual, you can trust the Market Dominance Guys to steer you in the right direction when it comes to dominating your market just as they do on today's podcast, The Right Skills for the Job.
Corey Frank (01:57):
Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the indomitable, [inaudible 00:02:05] of sales, the profit of profit, the rasputin of revenue. How about that? That's a new one, the rasputin of revenue, mad monk rasputin and the controversial Chris Beall. And today, one of our topics we're going to tackle is this little thing called scale, Chris, you and I were talking the last several weeks about this going back and forth about AI and the advent of machine learning and can human scale? A human with all its faults can it compete with a fully automated, fully mandated machine learning algorithm that learns on the fly? And when you consider human scaling at the same rate as maybe software, how does that play into what folks want to do from a market dominance perspective? So I figured we could start there.
Corey Frank (02:54):
This will be a fun one. We have a lot of folks of our colleagues on both sides of the aisle businesses that depend predominantly on humans. And we certainly have our share of folks who are on the tip of the spear so to speak on folks who are really focusing on the AI side particularly when it comes to sales, will we ever be out of a job, so to speak? So let's start there, Chris, what's your opinion on scale using humans versus machines and a profession from top of funnel all the way through discovery, to closing?
Chris Beall (03:27):
Sure. It's a very interesting topic. I've been obsessed with it for I don't know, 40 something years. This question of what do humans do well? What do machines do well? And what can they do together that they can't do separately that's of high value? I think that's actually the interesting question. I think in the engineering world, there's an either or mindset that tends to show up. It's like, I want to make the humans go away. It's almost like a science project. I want to make them go away to show I can make them go away. And as though that last human, that last drop of blood running through the system somewhere is going to carry a fatal disease. And yet when you come right down to it, any system that can do something marvelous without any human involvement can do something better with human involvement.
Chris Beall (04:15):
Even if the only thing it does better is throws out the silly stuff that the machine has come up with because of some limitation and its training set and the algorithms that it's developed so far. A car that has a human in it, who somehow stays alert very hard in it self-driving cars or semi-autonomous cars. But somebody who pays attention all the time, never runs over somebody who kind of looks like a pedestrian, but not quite enough in order to have the self-driving car, having seen one of those before and so boom. And that happened in Tempe a few years ago, as you well know. And it's one that when you look at it and you say, "Would a human have hit that person driving a car?" The answer is, "Not, if they were sober." The machine was perfectly sober, but it just hadn't seen those lighting conditions and that kind of combination of somebody walking in front of it and somebody died.
Chris Beall (05:04):
And I think that problem at the margin is always there, but I don't think it's always at the margin. I think the problem is actually more in the center. So I run a company that has humans in the loop doing something that almost everybody imagines a machine could do. They say, "Well, you have a dialer." Sure. Okay. For legal reasons, my quote unquote dialer, which it's not, when it makes dials in parallel, which is what makes it fast. One of the things that makes it fast. If you're doing five things at a time you're five times faster than somebody who's doing one thing at a time and the same thing, it's all there is to it. It's just pretty simple, right? Somebody once asked me by the way is [inaudible 00:05:40] always faster? I said, "No, it's not always faster. It's only faster on days when five times three equals 15, all the other days, it's not really faster at all."
Chris Beall (05:49):
Because if five things at a time or six at a time times a unit rate of three times faster, because we specialize specialists are always faster. You ever watch a specialist do anything they do it in a way after they're experienced in a way that kind of freaks you out. You ever sat down at a blackjack table? Remember the first time you ever did that in Las Vegas, it's like these dealers are really, really fast. The game is going much, much faster than you're comfortable with. And eventually I used to play blackjack for a living. So I went through that process and eventually it slowed down. So this whole question of a person in a loop is very close to my heart so to speak in my professional life, because we do it. We employ roughly speaking, 500 people. And those people navigate phone calls on behalf of salespeople.
Chris Beall (06:39):
Now, why would you divide the labor between navigating phone calls and dialing or whatever that is that we expect reps to do? I mean, people often say reps should pick up the phone. It's kind of a moral thing. Like pick up the phone you wimp and when you come right down to it, when a rep picks up the phone, 95% of the time, they end up navigating a fun system to nowhere voicemail. There's no point in navigating to voicemail, unless you think leaving voicemails is a great idea. And even if you're going to do that, you may as well then have somebody else navigate to voicemail and leave the voicemail for you unless you think your brilliant personalization of the voicemail is going to make the difference in which case you're living 20 years ago and kind of catch up with the times.
Chris Beall (07:18):
So navigating to voicemail is essentially a wasteful activity for a sales rep, but it's a necessary activity if you want to talk to anybody, because there are people out there to talk to. And if you navigate 25 dials to voicemail, somewhere in there on average, you'll probably talk to one person. It'd be three. It could be 57. It could be 11, whatever it happens to be there's some ratio out there for that moment in the day for that particular or target market that you're going to hit. And the alternative is to leave those conversations to your competitor. This is where all of this really comes down. It's not a theoretical exercise. Like, "Hey, what's cheaper?" That's not the question. The question is what dominates markets. If you want to be cheap, don't start a business. That's the cheapest thing to do, you spend no money whatsoever.
Chris Beall (08:08):
And you've succeeded in the world of cheekiness, right? I didn't spend any money. I sat back and I watched the market go by. Maybe I'd make some passive investments. And that's it. If you have an idea and the idea that you think is helpful to businesses and there's enough of them to sell to, and you think they're going to get enough value and you can provision that solution at a reasonable price that gives you gross margin. That's high enough that it's worth doing then you kind of have only one question, which is, who's going to dominate that market? You or somebody else? That's really the question. That's why we're doing this podcast. That's why we're writing this book. It's all about one thing. Hey, everybody, let's focus on this. Failure to dominate markets equals going out of business. You just don't know when.
Chris Beall (08:54):
So it's basically a question of what can you do that's high enough value that somebody will take you up on it, choose you first before they choose the other guy, and will find value and stick with you? So the cheapest thing is rarely the thing that provides the most value. If you put a human in the loop, even just to handle stupid exceptions. There's just stupid exceptions. So ask a computer to tell the difference between a dog and a cat. It'll tell you some things are cats that clearly aren't cats. If this weren't true, those little captcha things, and you're logging in and says, which pictures have a truck in them? If that was an easy problem for computers to solve that wouldn't be how a captcha works because they're trying to figure out if you're a human and it's trivially easy for most people.
Chris Beall (09:43):
It's not for me because I have to go get my glasses. And I can't see the little tiny things that 22 year olds who programmed this stuff think that you can see really, really small pictures, but that's okay, eventually I get through it. I don't have difficulty recognizing a truck compared to a picture of a truck on a billboard, for instance, or on a car that's clearly not a truck, but it has some boxy characteristics on it. And it has something behind it that looks like a trailer. And maybe the Subaru Forester with the trailer on it might look like a truck, but it ain't a truck, right? AI might get that wrong. And that's what they're trying to weed out. Weeding out silly stuff is just one thing that humans can do exceptionally well.
Chris Beall (10:29):
And in concert with machines, whether the machines a AI, or it's just a sorter or a search mechanism or whatever. We used to do a product back in the late 1990s did it from 1992 to 2001 or something like that two different products and what their job was among other things was taking all the world's product and service information and putting it in a catalog that could be searched by any company, according to its subset of the catalog, the products that they wanted to buy, not everything across all vendors and do it in a way that would globally. So we published it in 14 languages every night.
Chris Beall (11:09):
Now that sounds like you could have a lot of automation in there and you sure can, but getting something wrong is the same as hiding it. So putting the bolt in with the cars, because there's a Chevy bolt is a mistake. The quarter inch hex head of stainless steel bolt is not a Chevy bolt and vice versa. So we put humans in the loop and have the machines do the first level kind of, I'm absolutely sure of this with some human QA sampling downstream, but whatever we had ambiguity, we had an efficient means of putting a human up and say, "Better one, better two, or not any of us." And the human and that about a ton could do that.
Corey Frank (11:52):
I think you gave the example when we were talking earlier about voicemail, how quickly can we recognize a voicemail for human versus some of the statistics that you gave versus having a machine do it so I can either transfer that call or I can move on to the next call, et cetera?
Chris Beall (12:11):
Yeah. Nobody knows what the theoretical limit is, but we have a pretty big training set. I mean, we called 380 million people or something like that. So pretty good big training set to figure out what sounds like a voicemail, what sounds like a person and it includes by the way, a disposition on every single call saying whether it's a voicemail or a person. So our training set is perfect. It's pristine for making this distinction because it's what we do for a living. We navigate dials. And if it's a person we transfer and if it's a voicemail, we don't, and we navigate them. We don't just call direct numbers and hope for the best. It takes care of all this other stuff, dial by name directories, and this, that, and the other thing, human gatekeepers and everything else.
Chris Beall (12:51):
How do you tell the difference? Well, we don't know how our machine tells the difference, but we have a machine that tells the difference and it's great. And we can just about use it, but we want to have a human in the loop because it takes almost a second and the human takes 192 milliseconds. And it's a race. The difference between a second and two tenths of a second is big, eight-tenths of a second it's five times. So going five times slower, I got to have a lot cheaper people. And there are folks who are just attracted to cheap. It's like, Oh, if I can get the cost down low enough, that's the right answer, but that's not.
Corey Frank (13:31):
So you would believe this technological singularity of AI, other folks will say that it's imminent this singularity, the singular moment where machines will be preeminent in sales or discovery, but from your perspective, that will never happen. There will always be a control joining of these two forces. And certainly that's farther down the loop simply because of these nuances that machines can do only a certain part and humans can do others?
Chris Beall (14:04):
Yeah. I am not looking in a practical sense to a day where machines do everything that's required in selling, identify who to sell to maybe they'll do pretty well with that, actually, because that can be based on a lot of data, having a conversation with somebody and causing that person to trust you. Well, we did have ELIZA up back in the fifties, a program that everybody trusted because ELIZA would use what's called Rogerian non-directive therapy approach, and answer your questions with questions that kind of sounded pretty good. And you'd kind of go for it. Most people actually bought ELIZA. Maybe ELIZA would still make a great salesperson for all I know, but ELIZA ain't much of a closer. So knowing when to close, when is that moment and doing it correctly, that might be a little bit tricky for machines to do.
Chris Beall (14:57):
Getting to the edge cases, which is where business is interesting noticing opportunities that were not in the playbook. That's extremely hard. I mean, not in the playbook means machine learning has a tough time dealing with it. The thing is business is vast and multi-dimensional, and it's ill characterized. It's very, very hard to make a training set in which you've captured everything that's relevant. And then you truly know the outcome of it on some crude closed one versus something else kind of outcome. And very little of sales is understandable from what ended up being closed one, the interesting action was before the end. So for instance, we've just learned of a way to extract the gut feel from a rep about the seven key relationships in any deal, along three dimensions, to get that out of a rep by a machine asking the rep the questions is really hard and a human interviewer can do it really easily, super valuable.
Chris Beall (15:58):
The machine can calculate whether this collection of answers equates to 78% chance of close or 23% chance of close. Machines are really, really good at that. It's not great at interacting with the rep in a way that is curious when the rep says something in a funny tone of voice that the machine goes, "Huh? That didn't sound quite right." That causes me to go down this Y path and ask, "Well, why do you think that's true?" And it's the key part of the entire process is knowing when to ask why. So these things are bound throughout all of sales and anyway, being cheap in sales might not be the main thing. So as long as you're defeated by somebody who wins the deal, you don't win in a zero sum game or a winner take all game. We talked about this once in a episode. Sales is a winner-take-all game, but it's not a winner take all game in the classic sense. It's a winner take all game in which the habit of the winner taking all becomes dominance.
Chris Beall (17:01):
It's a runaway, it's like a nuclear explosion and it's not good to be on the wrong side of it. So losing being in a hundred races and losing a hundred races by one second is really bad. Being in a hundred races and losing one by a hundred seconds and winning 99 by one second. It's really good. And so we tend to forget in business and sales as the spear point of business, it's truly about winning or losing. It's not about imagine this I'm going to lose every single deal by 2%, but I'm going to do it at one-tenth the cost.
Announcer (17:45):
We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. ConnectAndSell, welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads, your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com.
Chris Beall (18:24):
Well, I lose the market. I might as well stay home.
Corey Frank (18:28):
Right? Right. So I think in the classic sense, Chris, where folks will push back and say, that is it on scale on humans versus machine is in my tech stack, right? I have this plethora of tools that I can add to make my folks each have an iron man suit, but at the end of that equation, I still need somebody to pull the trigger. But the advent of intense tools of what time people are picking up their phone, what time they're answering an email, what's the best day of the week, what cadence works, that type of nuanced behavior to help in collection of all these basis points into real close rates. We're seeing that a lot in the face today. It's not necessarily just adding more bodies, it's adding more pieces of technology to each of those bodies.
Chris Beall (19:25):
Yeah. Which makes it harder to be the rep. Because now in addition to learning how to sell, which most reps actually don't know how to do and could stand to be taught. And I'm not saying that cruelly. I'm just saying, the most contained part of selling was the cold call and we teach cold calling now, why do we do that? Because we noticed after 14 years that most reps didn't know how to cold call. And if you give them technology to let them have 30, 40, 50 conversations a day, finally, you may as well teach them how to cold call, right? There's a very simple thing. It can be done in five sentences. There's a certain framework. There's a tonality that means something. There's an emotional journey that's well understood. There's a way to handle it when it goes this way, that way or the other way, none of this is actually theoretically, particularly hard and it be hard for me to even say it's interesting, except it's pretty interesting when you dig into it, right?
Chris Beall (20:15):
So here you have a human, who has a hard time with something that doesn't require any technology, other than a way to talk to he a remote person for a remote cold call and that's hard for them to use. So when the telephone itself, after the connection is made is hard to use because sales is hard and sales is hard because it's essentially a psychological game played against this very troubling backdrop of time. That is even when played perfectly you're only at an 8.3% or 8.6% or whatever win rate, it gets really, really hard to interpret the data, putting more tech out there, just as more variables, the more variables you have, the harder it is for you to understand what's making a contribution and what's getting in the way.
Chris Beall (21:02):
But you know, one thing for sure, each piece of tech has to be learned. Each one has to be wired up to all of the others or some of the others in some way, all of the data has to be consistent. They haven't made any tech in the tech stack yet that can deal with the fact that Mary says busy call back. And Joe says not interested reason given on exactly the same conversation. There is no tech that can make sense of that. I don't care what somebody says on that one. So we have this problem that data is not consistent and can't be. It's naturally variant. It's variant both in form and in meaning, but the syntax and the semantics will vary. Then it varies over time. Folks have different meanings for the same field. Oh, we stopped using this field, but we didn't want to make a new one. So what do we do? Now you actually take this value and you put it in this field.
Chris Beall (21:55):
You don't use these other two anymore. And when you say this it actually means this, and then you look over here to see what the real value is, because we also didn't want to add an object to the Salesforce at that point, because we have a rule against custom objects. You ever heard that before? I mean, I think everybody's for that one. So tech stacks are fundamentally attractive because it seems like there's all these jobs you can make easier, but they don't make the job easier, the job of being a rep. In fact, I would contend and I get feedback on this every day that even a CRM makes your job harder. And if you have to put data in and keep a CRM up to date, it means you have to know all the rules for putting the data in. The rules have to not change out from under you in interesting ways. I mean, I have a hard time in our CRM putting in an opportunity. Why? There are about three required fields that I actually don't understand.
Corey Frank (22:53):
Right.
Chris Beall (22:53):
I don't understand what they're for. I run the company, right? And I sell a lot. I sell [inaudible 00:22:57] six million a year, so it's not like I don't have any reason. So I do something simpler. I delegate that to somebody who's a specialist. That's the answer to the tech stack is it turns out there are distinct jobs that have sort of clusters of skills around them. So the sales rep job has a cluster of skills around talking, listening, empathy, and problem solving in the moment and a knowledge base around the resources, internal and external that could be brought to bear to help a customer. Those are the five skill areas that cluster around somebody being a sales rep. And when we think of making a sales rep better, we think of helping them say the right things in the right way. Listen for things where they kind of adjust what they're doing next in a way that's useful, recognize the difference between no and not now, and not me, those kinds of things.
Chris Beall (23:54):
So we need for them to do those things. When they get down to problem solving, we need them to have a problem solving mindset. So that they're thinking what is the customer's problem? And they have a mental model of the customer's problem, and they know how to do the talking and listening to validate. We look at those skills, right? Well, do any of those skills, including... And I'll just go with ConnectAndSell parochially. Do any of those skills include navigating a phone system, being an expert at using a dial by name directory. Is that part of any of those skills? No, it's not. That's part of a different skillset. That's around getting a conversation with somebody. There's another skill set around updating your CRM. We try to keep reps out of the CRM, make the data go in, but the data goes in with the robot doing it.
Chris Beall (24:40):
So our robots take the data in you finish a ConnectAndSell call. You take your notes, you hit your disposition, busy, call back, interested, send information or whatever you put in your followup date if you want to talk to them in the future. And you're little teleprompter so you know what to say, when that pops up on the screen three months from now or whatever, when you decide that's when you want to talk to him and you get ahold of them again. So all of that, should you go over and type that into the CRM after navigating down to the task record, knowing that you set it up like this in order to show a complete telephone test, no robots are really good at that.
Chris Beall (25:14):
So we delegate that to a robot great, but then when it comes time to understanding these conversations took place I wonder if I don't see quite the right close rate of conversations to meetings. I wonder what that means. Well, then I put a human back in the loop to listen to the conversations, but I use the data and the machine to say, but these are the good ones to look at. So machines are really good at looking at data and saying, "This is probably more interesting than that." Humans are really good at actually looking going, no, it's not, but as long as you don't make the human, do that hard work of calculating what might be interesting and let them just take a look. And humans are especially strong when it comes to visual stuff. So we're doing something right now at ConnectAndSell internally that's really fun.
Chris Beall (26:05):
We're taking all of the data about all of our customers and putting it up in a single chart that a human can look at and say that customer is having a problem with this particular thing say their dial to connect is increasing suddenly compared to the last say, 30 days. And they're really important because their bubble is big and they're not getting very much economic value because it's red. I want to go hover over that and see, what's true about them yesterday, last week and last month, and I don't want to click, if it looks interesting, then click. All of their humans, then turn into bubbles and it's the same evaluation. There's the person that is most responsible for most impacted by this. And they're important because in our case, they're using a lot of our product.
Chris Beall (26:58):
And so expectations are high because somebody's spending a bunch on it. I think everybody can do stuff like that and the human visual system, how hard is it to say that's up there, that's over there, that's green, that's red, that's big, that's little? Nothing to it. You see it all at once. That's a hard one for the machine to pick out because at the margin, it doesn't quite know what you know, like yeah, but that's these guys and they are always like that I don't worry about them. So it's those kinds of things.
Corey Frank (27:30):
Well, you think about it. What I hear you saying is that you look at the skills that go into a professional, simple sales person. Forget about complex sales, but just keep it in simple sales for a moment. And that a specialist will always trump a generalist. And when you look at what is asked for, what is expected of, most sales reps today is to do cold calling. Well, that cold calling seems to have two distinct skill sets. One is the process before I actually talk to somebody, navigating phone trees, [inaudible 00:28:11] screeners, et cetera, cadences.
Corey Frank (28:14):
And then the second one is actually once somebody who is on my list, who picks up the phone, that's a completely different skill set. Then after that, I have the discovery skill set, which we'll talk about next time and next call, I know we're anxious to talk about what goes into an ideal discovery call. And then you have kind of the closing and the pursuit pattern. And yet it does seem a bit challenging today to have, or to expect a sales professional, to be a specialist in all of those areas when clearly there can be machines that can help them with certain pieces of that to optimize their success.
Chris Beall (28:58):
Yeah. And it's really easy for a specialist to learn, to use a machine that they use every day or a tool they use every day. It's trivially easy, right? Even difficult to use tools are easy to use one. It's what you do all the time. And anybody's ever worked in a kitchen knows this. I used to work in a kitchen. There are some tools in there that are actually very difficult to use really, really well. But if you use them every day, they get pretty easy. The most challenging of them all is a chef's knife. Most people never master it. And as a result, they're slow, they're clumsy, they're cuts aren't even blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So here's a machine that as a specialist that I use it every day and it just starts to make sense. You have that feel as it slides down the fingernail of the middle finger of your left hand, that slight touch that tells you it's where I want it to be.
Chris Beall (29:48):
You've got that pullback feel where you're making that next slice with the left hand, pulling back, you know what you're controlling. So even hard to use machines are complex machines. Jet fighters are probably pretty complex and yet smart kids out of school are taught to fly these things in combat situations relatively quickly. And they get used to all the complexity because they train and they train and they train and their specialist and they use it all the time. If you threw them in a helicopter and they hadn't flown one, well, it's hard. It's hard to train for both at the same time, right? So that's why we specialize. There's fighter pilots and there's helicopter pilots. And maybe they start out with similar skills, but some are better at one than the other, in some ways. And in sales, we have a funny situation where a lot of the things that need to be done can be done by very low cost labor that loves doing them.
Chris Beall (30:41):
It fits not only their skills, but their temperament, which is important and navigating phone systems as an example. There are people who love to navigate phone systems, but would never want to have one sales conversation from now until just after the day they die. They really don't want to have sales conversations because it's uncomfortable for them. There are people who can have sales conversations at the top of the funnel very comfortably, but they have an issue talking about money. And so for them to set appointments is easy. They can believe in them. They can get those appointments set, no problem. But if they have to close for money, then their family issues, the way that they were raised, the way money was seen in their family can block them.
Chris Beall (31:22):
So if you want to hire SDRs, one of the things you want to do, if you want them to be with you for a long time as SDRs, top of the funnel, BDRs, whatever you want to call them, hire people who have the skills that are needed there and have an anti skill, which is the ability to talk about money because you're actually hiring from a more specialized cohort. You'll get a better price, so to speak and you'll get better performance and you'll stay in the seat longer, which is a big deal too.
Corey Frank (31:49):
That makes perfect sense. That's great. Yeah. The chef's knife example is also a great analogy, too. It's a simple tool, but in the hands of a Emeril or Gordon Ramsey they are just a maestro with their ability to slice an onion without losing a couple of inches of their left index finger. Sure. I could see that. So in conclusion here, Chris, we're going to wrap this up here. When you look at, and I know you hate this question every episode when we talk about it is first feel the prognosticator, right?
Corey Frank (32:19):
Is where do we see it today? Will machine learning with all the equations, its ability to defeat Kasparov in chess, its ability to navigate the NSA security codes in a matter of minutes, and to map the human genome, but yet where are also the opportunities that you see that didn't quite wide-scale enough yet where machine learning and AI can really help what we're doing in getting maybe top of funnel folks on the hook faster? Or have we reached again that singularity with regards to machines or sorry, humans and machines will really be focused more on other things such as data or dialing technology and things of that nature. Where do you see it?
Chris Beall (33:09):
Well, I don't see the machines anytime soon, taking over the conversation. Trusting the machine with your career, which is what must happen in B2B sales the buyer must trust the machine with the seller, with their career, who would ever trust the sellers machine? Oddly enough, we will trust a human being because it's our nature to do so. But if we knew that somebody had made it a machine whose purpose is to sell it to us at all costs, no matter what, we're not going to trust it, it's just the way it is. It's like here's a machine that is better at manipulating you than any human. It can manipulate your emotions, but I can't hide the fact that it's a machine. So it's very machiness is going to mitigate against it being successful in creating trust and trust is the essence of the B2B equation.
Corey Frank (33:56):
Sure.
Chris Beall (33:57):
It's hard. That one's a hard one. Data? Man machines are great at data and they can find candidates to talk with like nobody's business. They're really good at keeping up with changes in the data world, which is so hard for a human to do. A machine, could look at everything that happened on LinkedIn yesterday and do it with no issue whatsoever and do it quite quickly and find you out of all the people who've changed jobs in all 27 of them that you should probably talk with, but the machine won't be able to talk with them as well as you can. And I think that's a distinction that's going to be made for quite a while. And machines are better at data than we are. They still do silly things. I actually think that's a psychological issue for sales reps.
Chris Beall (34:45):
Some sales reps hate to have one conversation that day that's with somebody they obviously shouldn't talk with. I can tell you right now, I'm about to close a quarter million dollar a year business with somebody who was introduced to me by somebody who I never should have talked with. [inaudible 00:35:00] somebody turned into a brilliant customer of a very niche kind and fell so in love with our product, that's sitting in first class on a flight at random, told somebody else about connected cell and there's the quarter million dollar deal. I don't think any machine would anticipate that. And I was going a little bit on, I really liked this guy. I want to help him.
Corey Frank (35:21):
It would have been classified as a false positive, sorry for slipping through the cracks. It would have been the data elements somewhere, but another man's trash is another man's treasure.
Chris Beall (35:30):
Exactly. And you have to actually dig through the trash which we do with conversations.
Corey Frank (35:34):
Absolutely. Well, excellent. Well, great, Chris, I'm glad we finally got a chance to talk a little bit more in detail about this. I know how strongly you feel and especially where a lot of the noise in the industry is moving towards this direction of putting folks like me out of work and putting us on the street. I can't handle a chef's knife. So the only thing I do know how to do is pick up the phone and talk to strangers and ask them for time or money. So it's good to know that at least I have a runway of another few years or so, this has been another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. Until next time, this is Corey Frank and Chris Beall. Until then.
Our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, continue their discussion about churn and its various causes. Today’s topic is about how a company’s growth is managed. Are the guiding forces going after traction first? Or are they jumping right into how to scale before they have worked out their product’s kinks? Chris and Corey talk about the tragedy of designing for scale before you have traction. As Chris will tell you, it’s a fool’s errand. If you have no traction, no conversations with your buyers, then you’re not going to learn anything about what your customers need or about why they may not be coming back. Once again, market dominance is achieved when you investigate your churn! And that’s done with conversations.
Today’s podcast winds up with a question of “Who’s in charge here?” when it comes to how to steer a company toward success. Is it the investors you’ve taken money from, who may be pressuring you to scale quickly? Or is it your customers, who, if asked, will tell you what they do or don’t like about your product or service, guiding you toward what you should do to keep them renewing? Listen in to what Chris and Corey think about this important matter on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Which Comes First? Traction or Scale?”
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Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their discussion about churn and it's various causes. Today's topic is about how a company's growth is managed. Are the guiding forces going after traction first or are they jumping right into how to scale before they've worked out their products' kinks? Chris and Corey talk about the tragedy of designing for scale before you have traction. As Chris will tell you, "It's a fool's errand. If you have no traction, no conversations with your buyers, then you're not going to learn anything about what your customers need or about why they may not be coming back. Once again, market dominance is achieved when you investigate your churn and that's done with conversations."
Today's podcast winds up with a question of who's in charge here when it comes to how to steer a company towards success? Is it the investors you've taken money from who may be pressuring you to scale quickly? Or is it your customers who if asked, will tell you what they do or do not like about your product or service, guiding you toward what you should do to keep them renewing? Listen in to what Chris and Corey think about this important matter on today's Market Dominance Guys episode, Which Comes First, Traction or Scale?
Corey Frank (01:54):
How I think a lot of folks start in this profession of sales, right? We're talking about churn and SaaS, and there's certainly churn in your team. And what do you see when the landscape today, particularly all the implementations ConnectAndSell as part of? I would imagine it saves a lot of careers though too. When you have the right tech stack with the sales rep, who maybe again is in this existential crisis, that tech stack can revitalize or reclarify, re-energize that what they thought sales was doesn't necessarily have to be what sales will be. And they have a sense of promise of future potential, of hope again, I would imagine in quite a few instances, true?
Chris Beall (02:41):
ConnectAndSell in particular, I think has a place in that hope equation, in that if you didn't really recognize that your issues had to do with the fact that you just weren't talking to enough people to even have a shot. It's like if somebody put you to the task of driving a car up a hill, because you've got to deliver something, or trucks, say you're an Amazon Prime delivery person, which I believe is now one out of three Americans. So, your job is to get this truck up the hill. Well, if the truck has the horsepower and it has the gearing and it has tires on it and it has a steering wheel, it's connected through some coupling mechanism to the front wheel so that they'll still both point the same direction at the same time, this seems really straightforward.
Chris Beall (03:28):
It may be that the hill is steep or windy. It could be like the hill that led up to the geodesic dome I used to live in up in the Santa Cruz mountains where people would visit us once and never come back. That was pretty common. We had very few dinner parties after a certain point. It's like, "We're never visiting your house again."
Chris Beall (03:46):
"Why?" "Because you can't see where you're going on that hill and there's a cliff." "Okay, got it." I don't see the cliff anymore. But if that's your job, and your boss says, "Go do it." And then the problem is that there's something on the hill, say a little skiff of snow or a little wetness or a little oil or whatever, that friction issue in this case, that lack of friction issue is going to manifest itself as 1,000 things you're going to try, none of which are going to work, because unless you have enough fundamental friction between the tires and the hill, it doesn't matter what else you do. And I think in sales, the role technology can play is to reduce the friction, or to provide enough traction, enough grip between the rep and the market, that the rep can start to do their job, they can drive up that hill for the first time.
Chris Beall (04:41):
And before then they don't realize they were doing 100 things, but they didn't really have a shot at doing their job, which begins in the conversation. It doesn't begin in the research. It doesn't begin in the strategy, reps shouldn't be handling company strategy anyway. Why we give company strategy to reps is one of the great mysteries of my life, but people still do it. But by the way, the reason we give company strategy to reps is there's no consequence since they're not going to talk to anybody anyway. So it's a fine thing to delegate since there's so little traction between those tires in the road, that doesn't really matter.
Corey Frank (05:20):
Yeah it's true. Well, let's also clarify that most organizations don't understand, or maybe haven't had the pain enough that the list is your ultimate strategy. I can strategize product market fit, I can have great product research, I can have the best engineers, I can have the full feature set, great UI, award-winning UX, everything, but if I leave that to chance to my reps to, "Just go in the market, you'll find some buyers out there." That's probably where most are, correct? From that approach when you talk about strategy and leaving it to chance.
Chris Beall (05:59):
It is. And when it's left to chance, when you don't have engagement, real engagement, where you have traction, and it's like you're building a business. In all businesses, you should seek traction before you seek scale, always.
Corey Frank (06:14):
Seek traction [crosstalk 00:06:15].
Chris Beall (06:15):
Dreaming about scale before you have traction is a fundamental mistake in designing a business, because the big question is likely to be, what does it take to get traction? Not, what would it take if I had traction to get scale? And I've been through this argument with people for 40 years, and say, "Well, what you're doing doesn't scale. Well, what I'm doing is getting traction now because of without traction, thoughts of scale are pointless. If you think that I'm too dumb to realize that there's a point where we now have traction, and by the way, flowing cash coming into the company in excess of our overhead, and we could redesign around scale, if you don't think we're going to do that, you're wrong."
Chris Beall (07:01):
But designing for scale before you have traction is a fool's errand. And we see this in SaaS companies every day, most are designed for scale and they fail before they get traction.
Corey Frank (07:13):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (07:15):
It's the most fundamental quality of business. If you have no traction, for one thing, you're going to die, for another thing, you're not going to learn anything about what your customers really need, you're going to live in a fantasy land of your own making. You're going to find yourself having internal meetings about why your customers are not coming back, right? Internal meetings on churn are a joke. Just talk to your customers, the ones that left and find out why they left. And then after the fact categorize those, and whichever category has got the most in it, that's probably the one you should address, right? The data, the conversations will tell you the answer, and your internal discussions are probably not going to help very much. Don't do the schema in advance, have the conversations first, do the schema later, this by the way, is the same rule, conversations are attraction, schema is scale.
Corey Frank (08:03):
But is that a new phenomenon over the last unicorn era or is it a better remnant for quite a while? Is it exponentially connected? Is there correlation or causation because of the venture money that's poured into the marketplace about designing, especially these SaaS companies for a scale versus traction, would you say?
Chris Beall (08:27):
I think it's an investor-driven phenomenon, has been for quite a while. That is not a very informed opinion because I started doing companies myself in 1983 with Silicon Valley venture money, even though I was living in Boulder, Colorado. And this argument came up very quickly. So first product that I built with another guy, we built a bunch of different things. We had a relational database built from scratch, and I do mean a relational database, DVMS, where it was the pre-Oracle version of this stuff, quite fast. And we had to decide was that going to be our product, while we had this MRP thing, now you call it ERP. We decided to go that route, but was it okay to specialize into flow manufacturing instead of all manufacturing? Well, we decided for traction reasons it was because flow manufacturers, folks who put stuff in one end of a... Instead of a production line, they've got a trough, those folks who worked with tanker cars full of stuff, they were underserved.
Chris Beall (09:27):
And so we went down that road. And our venture capitalists, at one point in about 1986 said, "We don't see how this scales. So what we want you to do is shrink wrap it, put it on these new things called PCs, and we'll pump a bunch of money and you can sell it to little companies." Little companies didn't need what we had. It was just a top-down view where scale was given priority over traction. And we took what I think would have been the next SAP perhaps, you never know, we might've failed at it, right? But it certainly had a shot. We had big customers. We had lots of very happy customers who were getting something they couldn't get any other way. They were paying us a lot of money, but that desire for not just scale, but scale now, overwhelmed. Now look at SAP, SAP is a company that fundamentally you would say couldn't scale, because every implementation was effectively custom. The software standard, but the implementation was custom.
Chris Beall (10:27):
But they found a way to scale in the US. They stumbled on it a little bit, but they embraced it in the '90s, which was to let Anderson Consulting take them into the market. They gave up a certain amount of revenue, but they got scale another way and still preserved the very fundamental qualities of an SAP offering, which is, it's going to work in your company because somebody is going to fit it to your company. You may pay the consultant more than you pay the software guy, but the software companies can end up being capable of creating the richest man in Europe. So, I think that people get confused and it brings up this question of patience. It's extremely rare to make a great business, in fact it's almost unheard of to make a great actual business in less than 10 years. This is rare. And yet the, the lifetime of most venture funds is 10 years.
Corey Frank (11:23):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (11:25):
So, if you take money from a venture capitalist five years into their fund, yeah they're going to stick with you after those five years, but the level of patience is going to be... Shall we say their level of patience or their kind of patience is going to be distinct from the patients the market might have with you. It may well be that you need to hang around longer and solve more problems with more customers in order to really figure it out. And that's the market's patience, the market continue to keep you in business, but unfortunately you gave up control to somebody whose timeline is different from yours. And they're looking for 10X to 100X and you aren't it yet. And so, you made a deal you didn't think that you had made. And that one I think ends up being, often I think tragic, not in that people aren't going in eyes open, but there are some really good solutions to some serious problems that have been thrown into the ash heap of history and they're left to be rediscovered.
Chris Beall (12:25):
I talked to a CEO today of a company who's basically doing a superb job. This company is building something that I happen to be involved in, building something similar in 2008. I think it's wonderful that they're doing this now, but the thing probably could have been kept going in 2008, it's just the venture guys get impatient and they wanted a consumer product.
Corey Frank (12:48):
Sure.
Chris Beall (12:49):
Well asking me to do a consumer product is totally idiotic, not because a consumer product is not a great idea, they're great ideas when done well, but because I'm an idiot when it comes to consumerism. I mean, I suck as a consumer.
Corey Frank (13:03):
You could even run a restaurant.
Chris Beall (13:05):
Yeah. Restaurant, thank God, I understand food. That I get. I get food and I get service. Those things I could have done all right, it just wasn't my adventure. But I do think these things all go together, the traction and patience and solving real problems, and then somehow making the money equation work, and then the question of churn and whether it's good or bad churn, and the whole product, this stuff all goes together. And when somebody complains about a company, that it has too many moving parts... I remember when I left Requisite Technology, I was asked to leave, I believe because and given that it followed the next day at 5:30 in the morning, because I had made the strong suggestion that I should be the CEO and that I had a plan.
Chris Beall (14:27):
And I thought my plan was pretty good. And they thought a better plan was that I would clean out my desk that day. So, I-
Corey Frank (14:43):
Just a difference of opinion. Yes, right.
Chris Beall (14:45):
Yeah, it was a difference of opinion. And their opinion obviously counted more than mine since this is just how this stuff works. They were on the board, and the CEO by the way, who put the note on my coffee cup that said, "Chris, see me," Lou is still a very close personal friend. So, it does show that you don't have to take these things personally. In fact, I still really appreciate what he did for me and how he did it. But when I look back on that situation and think, "Okay, what happened next?" Well, they got a new CEO in there eventually. It took a while, but they got somebody in there. And he called me up the second day on the job and said, "Chris, this thing's incomprehensible, that you built here. It's got so many moving parts. I can't understand how they go together." And I went and had lunch with them and drew some pictures on napkins and stuff like that, and offered my help.
Chris Beall (15:42):
And it turned out, I think to be too hard to figure out. But my point is, the moving parts are already there, they're built into the world as we find it. There isn't a situation in business that's simple, that everyone that's of any value has all these dimensions, that they all have a money dimension. Your overhead is that racehorse that eats while you sleep. It will break you eventually unless you can figure out how to make the cash equation work. And the cash equation runs off the gross profit flow in some way, or off a funding flow in some way, and you've got to figure that out. And there is the whole product problem, it's all there.
Corey Frank (16:26):
Over capitalization, we can talk about this here because it's a natural trajectory here. Over capitalization in business, how much harm does that do to CEOs and managers versus what you're saying, which is, "I got to learn to live within my means. I got to learn to live lean. If I have a company that's seven, eight, nine, 10 years, that may had been through a few cycles versus if I continually go from series A to series B to series C, I never really have that tight cash crunch crisis, three in the morning, can't sleep because how do I feed this race horse?" And maybe talk a little bit about your opinions on that, because I think that... I have a good friend, I think we said that many times, that Tim Crown, chairman of Insight, him and his brother started it. And he always said, "The best ideas for me come when I'm around porcelain." As a CEO, talk about existential crisis, he always said, "The best ideas and the best solutions to my problems come when I'm hanging around porcelain in the shower, brushing my teeth, shaving in the toilet, wherever it is."
Corey Frank (17:38):
And is capital sometimes too easy to get? Just because you can get it, should you? Because you miss out on really trying to figure out how these problems can be solved in more creative ways versus just adding more capital.
Chris Beall (17:53):
I think too much capital is the biggest problem, at least in tech. There's, always more money that wants deals, and there are smart things to do with it at that instant. And it's also provided in these chunks, these big chunks. And it's because as Matt Melymuka over at PeakSpan says, "These funds have got too much money and too few partners. And so, they got to seek unicorns. They've got to seek that huge exit. And they're going to sacrifice lots of good companies in order to do it." It's not intentional. There's no bad will involved in any of this stuff, it's just math. Like so many of the bad things in life, it's like viruses are just math. They just are. And I don't know, if somebody thinks the virus isn't math, I can have a private conversation with them about the nature of viruses and math, but I guarantee you a virus is an inevitable piece of math based on how cells reproduce and that's just the way it is.
Chris Beall (18:53):
So, the fact is there's money over concentrated or over piled up in the hands of a smaller number of money managers who call themselves venture capitalists and growth equity guys. And it's because if you have money in, say you're a pension fund or whatever, who are you going to put it with? The one who had the big exits and big successes in their previous funds or not? It may be pure superstition. After all, if you just roll dice or flip coins, half of them are going to be better than the other half. And investing in the half that are better by luck is a bad idea, but no worse than idea than investing at random, except they'll come in at a higher price, which they take out of your head. I think the problem with money is actually not the quantity of it, the problem is that it shifts the customer from being the customer who gets economic value from actually using your product.
Chris Beall (19:48):
And this is B2B, again, I've told you, I know nothing about consumers. Literally I know nothing. I don't know that that glass I'm drinking that Macallan 12 out of it is the wrong glass. It is not. That's not me. I know that I have a fondness for the Macallan 12 and I can afford it and that's about it. So that's the level of sophistication that this consumer goes for. But in B2B, I've been around a little bit, and I know a little bit about how it works. And what happens in B2B is your customer has fundamentally got two qualities that you have to take into account. One is that the buying person or committee, but the buying person in particular, is afraid. And we've talked about this at length on Market Dominance Guys. They're afraid, they're cautious, they're nervous. Say it however you want, there are consequences to a bad buy for a business that are not there in the case of a bad buy for yourself as a consumer.
Corey Frank (20:49):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (20:50):
And that's part of it. The second is, businesses vary in more interesting and important ways regarding a product helping them, than individuals do. Individuals are bound tightly by biology, and relatively tightly by culture by the society that they live in. And then somewhat tightly by demographics, how do they fit within that society. And so, in consumer-oriented businesses, we can segment, and when we find a hit, we double down on the hit. That's the rule for consumer-oriented businesses. You segment, you micro segment, you find a hit, you'd strike a cord, boom, go, be prepared to make more of that and market the living daylights out of it. It's not how it works in B2B, because our names for the different kinds of companies and different kinds of roles and different kinds of problems they have, don't map very cleanly onto the actual companies and their variety and the actual kinds of businesses they're in, and the actual roles. Companies are not constrained by biology. It's always the wild West.
Chris Beall (21:57):
And so, when you go to solve a problem for a company, you have to be prepared to do more different things other than simply say, "Here's the product." And those different things are opportunities to learn what might be the future product, what might be the ancillary services, what might be the partnerships that would help, and where to say no. All of these things are the things that you must practice every day when you're evolving and nurturing a B2B company. You're always paying attention to the stuff. The intelligence that comes back from your interaction with customers tells you what not to do, guides you toward what to do, and basically also freaks you out about what you might be able to do, both positively and negatively.
Chris Beall (22:46):
And guess what? None of that stuff makes any difference to your investors because they weren't in the thesis when they invested. So when you take too much money, your investor becomes your customer. And here's how you can tell you have a serious problem in a company, serious problem, when you spend a whole day, once a month, six weeks or a quarter or whatever, preparing for a board meeting, and it's an investor board. Your investor board is not going to benefit sufficiently from that extra bunch of preparation compared to just sitting down with them and telling them what's going on.
Corey Frank (23:25):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (23:26):
It just are. So you're putting on a show for somebody. Well, why are you putting on the show? Because you want that next round of financing? That's why. And that next round of financing becomes your next deal. So you go from a company that might have 100 deals or 1,000 deals or 10,000 deals, and deal with all that variety, get all that intel back and use that intel to make your product better, your services better, decide what to invest in and what not to invest in, and what kind of people to hire and what your attitude is going to be towards offering help to your customers, all that stuff, which is where real business is run, and you're going to forget that. And what you're going to do is prepare for the next board meeting because you're putting on a show for somebody.
Corey Frank (24:07):
So true. Yeah, you're dancing with the wrong person at that party, right?
Chris Beall (24:09):
You're tight, you're dancing with their mom, and she's not going to marry you. That's all there is to it. I'm sorry, you're both 17 and you're going to be a little bit clumsy, and next year you'll be 18, and eventually, maybe you'll be able to get married, but dancing with her mom is not going to help you, I hope.
Corey Frank (24:36):
It's illegal in 16 states too, so it's fine.
Chris Beall (24:38):
Yeah. But it's fascinating that the best of the best, and there's nothing wrong with taking money fundamentally. I mean, I actually believe that putting capital to work in companies is the smartest thing you can do with capital. It's why private equity is such a big business, but private equity is careful, they tend to be a little later stage. Private equity invests in businesses, venture capital invests in a company, but it really is a combination of an entrepreneur and idea, and their own sense of how that might play out, which is a category that everybody else is investing in. They're very different games. And folks like Matt Melymuka can come, and PeakSpan can come into a world that's like venture capital, but they're bringing a growth equity mindset.
Chris Beall (25:26):
They're saying, "Everybody succeeds. 100% of our investments are going to yield. They're going to yield positive outcomes." That's very different from 5% or 10%. So I really admire folks like that, that are looking at a way to bring capital to bear on good companies and even potentially great companies with a sharp eye to how not to ruin those companies inadvertently through excess capital or by becoming the customer.
Corey Frank (25:58):
Well yet again, Chris, in our hour-or-so conversation, somehow we've made it a point to talk about what it seems that so many of our 60-plus episodes are about. We always get a little bit of rock climbing in there I think somehow. We always talk about capital, we always talk about churn, SaaS, and then we even dosed a little bit of existentialism in there. And maybe what we should do in next episode is we can have a throwback machine where you can grow your hair out, you can have your Jean shorts and we can reminisce, tell the listeners here that, "I have a running tally of how many different positions Chris has maintained and has communicated throughout these episodes." I think we're up to 18 or so. So I'm sure there's a few more, that there's always some good lessons that come from you, either rock climbing or hanging out at the wrong place at the right time. And so, more to come, hopefully with many episodes.
Corey Frank (26:52):
So with that, Chris, it's always been a pleasure chatting with you. And until next time on the Market Dominance Guys, this is Corey Frank and Chris Beall, the sage of sales.
Our Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, are back this week with an episode about “churn.” No, they’re not talking about butter-making here. They’re addressing business churn — a measurement of cancellations or non-renewals of your company’s product or service. Are you thinking, “Churn: What can I do about it?” If you’re like many people, you may look at your company’s churn rate, give a philosophical shrug, and go back to hunting for more prospects to replace those MIA customers. But is it really easier to find new customers than it is to figure out what went wrong? As the folk-rock band, The Byrds, might have sung in the 60s, “To every cancellation (churn, churn, churn), there is a reason (churn, churn, churn).”
Corey points out that some churn is inevitable, but not all churn. Examination of cause and effect is needed! In a spirit of solidarity, Chris comes clean about what unexamined churn cost ConnectAndSell, the company he works for. He explains that he had to put arrogance aside and face the fact that their customers weren’t getting the full benefit from ConnectAndSell’s sales- acceleration platform simply because reps didn’t know how to successfully conduct a cold call. And, thus, a training program was born. Yes, it’s shine-a-bright-light-on-the-problem time on the Market Dominance Guys in today’s episode, “All Churn Is Not Created Equal.”
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Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
ConnectAndSell - ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
and
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
Our Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, are back this week with an episode about churn. No, they're not talking about butter making here. They're addressing business churn, a measurement of cancellations or non-renewals of your company's product or service. Are you thinking, "Churn? What can I do about it?" If you're like many people, you may look at your company's churn rate, give a philosophical shrug, and go back to hunting for more prospects to replace those MIA customers. But is it really easier to find new customers than it is to figure out what went wrong? As the folk rock band, The Byrds, might've sung in the 60s, to every cancellation, churn, churn, churn. There is a reason, churn, churn, churn. Okay. Forgive me. Sorry.
Corey points out that some churn is inevitable, but not all churn. Examination of cause and effect is needed. In a spirit of solidarity, Chris comes clean about what unexamined churn costs ConnectAndSell, the company he works for. He explains that he had to put arrogance aside, and face the fact that their customers weren't getting the full benefit from ConnectAndSell's sale acceleration platform, simply because reps didn't know how to successfully conduct a cold call. And thus a training program was born. Yes, it shined a bright light on the problem, time, on the Market Dominance Guys. In today's episode, all churn is not created equal.
Corey Frank (01:58):
So here we have my friend, Chris, and we have nobody on Johnny Carson's couch today, buddy. It is just you, the Carnac, and then me. I don't even think [inaudible 00:02:08] Ed McMahon, I'm probably even like Doc Severinsen. I don't even know what I am to your Johnny Carson, so. The production assistant to feed you the little three by five cards that you do your Carnac the Magnificent, so.
Corey Frank (02:19):
So here we are today, and we were talking before we jumped on, we got yet another story of a lesson learned from your life about one of your first jobs. How you hung out at the right place at the right time, and almost owned a restaurant. And that led us talking about, sometimes when we are thinking about our profession, how many times are we really tourists in our own profession? Where I think this is what I'm supposed to do, be promoted to a sales manager, or assume this more... This bigger territory, the VP or the CEO sits down and seductively presents it to us. Right, Chris? And I guess that's what I'm supposed to do, and then I very quickly realize that I don't know if I like this. And so, you shared kind of a couple of stories about that, but what do you think about that epidemic in our profession? That just because you can, should you?
Chris Beall (03:19):
Yeah. I think the answer is generally... Well, I don't know if it's generally anything, actually, now that I think about it. I mean, my whole career is built to these things, and there's two flavors of it. One is like the one story I told you, of coming up out of the desert on a warm day. And I was out rock climbing by myself, bouldering, not dressed particularly for company. A pair of cutoffs, a pair of climbing shoes, and some geeky glasses that I wore. And long hair, and a headband pulled down behind my back, and that was it. And-
Corey Frank (03:49):
So, you were the Matthew McConaughey before there was Matthew McConaughey? Sounds [inaudible 00:03:53]. The outfit you're describing, that sounds very much like something he would... And bongos in your backpack or something, probably.
Chris Beall (03:59):
I didn't have even a backpack, and I still have this bad habit, I didn't even take water with me. So I used to go climbing out in the desert for three, four hours at a time with no water. I heard a sound and I didn't know what it was. I walked over a ridge to check it out, and there's a guy in a suit. Nobody wears a suit out in the desert. I mean, it was a hot day, not hot for the desert, it was probably 97 degrees or something, but cool enough to boulder. Bouldering being climbing stuff that you think you can jump off of. Right? And every once in a while you find out you shouldn't have, but I was pretty practiced at taking some pretty long jumps. I'd practiced up to 22 feet, and then being able to land reliably on something.
Chris Beall (04:35):
So I felt... Feeling pretty, kind of worn out. I was bleeding here and there, because the rock there was pretty sharp. I walk up to this guy, who's standing there looking at a building, and I think it was the first time I ever really wanted a job. I had a job already, but I never had to get that job. But I wanted a job at that point, because I wanted to buy some climbing gear, and I was kind of starting to formulate this idea of taking a year and climbing all over the West. And so, that was going to take some capital. And in my world there was only one way to get money, and that was to work. I suppose there are other ways in other worlds, but that's kind of how we did it. So I walked up next to this gentlemen and stood there, quietly. And we watched what was down there, which is this nice, new building.
Chris Beall (05:21):
And it looked like a restaurant, and as I mentioned to you, my family really didn't go out to restaurants. We went out to Bill Johnson's Big Apple out there in Phoenix, which by the way, is the last place that I took my dad the night before he died. And so that was kind of coming full circle. And I suspected this was a restaurant, in Carefree, Arizona. Right? What else can it be? And the gentlemen, his name was Joe, he's just standing there. And finally, I asked the right question. I asked, "Is this yours?" And he beamed with pride. And he said, "Yes." And I said, "What's it called?" And he said, "The Elbow Bent." And I thought for a moment, and I said, "Need any help?"
Chris Beall (05:57):
That was my value prop, for I... "Need any help?" And that was the entire interview. And he said, "Yeah. Truck's going to be showing up in about 20 minutes, and would you like to help me unload it?" And we just had a great time that afternoon, setting up the kitchen, and setting up the freezer, and learning where everything went in the bar. And he offered me a job in the front of the house, as they call it. I could have been a bus boy. Now this turned out to be a very high-end restaurant, and a busboy would've made a bunch of money, but I told him... I asked him what I had to do. And he said, "You have to cut your hair." I said, "No. I'm not going to cut my hair."
Chris Beall (06:30):
So that was a little crossroads, that little piece of arrogance on my part ended up back in the kitchen. But the kitchen fascinated me, because the kitchen was where the mysteries were. The kitchen was technically complex. It had to do a job that, done imperfectly, resulted in really nothing. In a place like that, I could tell, you couldn't make a 90% good meal. You had to make a good meal, and you had to get kind of everything right. So I spent a long time back there, for me as a kid, 10, 11 months, working every night in that restaurant, six days a week and going to school, going to high school. And at the end of my tenure there, he took me aside, took me to the bar, poured me a single malt whiskey, very much like this. In fact, it was the Macallan 12, it's exactly what's in this glass. I didn't really realize he's the guy I learned it from. And told me a story about his restaurant career, and what his aspirations were.
Chris Beall (07:25):
And then hit me with a blockbuster, which is, "I'd like to give you this restaurant." And I said, "That's a very strange thing to say. Why are you saying that?" And he said, "Well, I don't have any heirs, and you seem like an unusually... A different kind of business person. And you've done a good job in the back, you've helped in the front some, and you can talk to people, obviously. And I get the sense that you know numbers." Well, I knew numbers, that was pretty clear, right? As a participant, put it modestly, in the National Math Contest several years in a row, and did all right. So I thought it over. I told him, "I'll tell you tomorrow." And I thought it over, but I just thought, "That's not my adventure." That's really what it was for me, is this, this isn't my adventure. This isn't what I'm made for. I could do it, I'd probably be pretty good at it. It's fun, but I really was a tourist.
Chris Beall (08:14):
And what did I take out of that job? I cook now. I cook a lot, and I love to cook. And I learned how to handle a knife, and assess a recipe in progress, and taste things, and go fast when you need to go fast, and pay attention when you need to pay attention, all the things you do in the kitchen. And so I love to be in the kitchen. I love to cook, and that was the part of the adventure that was my adventure. But running a restaurant wasn't going to be my adventure. And so, I reluctantly told him no. I was flattered, I was blown away. I was only just 17 years old, and [inaudible 00:08:49] to have to work there for five years, etc., in order to get the place. But I still think about it every once in a while. I would have been your neighbor out there in Carefree, maybe we'd still have the restaurant.
Corey Frank (08:58):
Yeah. Chez Beall, whatever you'd call its, or something.
Chris Beall (09:01):
It would have had some crazy name, I would have renamed it.
Corey Frank (09:06):
But it's interesting with that, it wasn't what you were called to do. It wasn't your adventure, you knew you were a tourist. He didn't, until you told him. So the question then is, as a sales leader, and as a CEO of many companies, as an investor, can you build a sales organization with a bunch of folks who are in an existential crisis? Who am I, what should I do? Do you want... Does it matter? How much of the companies that you've built, or the companies you know that are successful... First of all, do people care? Right? Because hey, I'm filling a role, a busboy, a dishwasher, or front of house, back of house, a sales rep, a field rep, a BDR, BDR manager.
Corey Frank (09:42):
But everybody is kind of going through these, maybe little, mini-existential crises, especially as the company grows to different stages. Do I want to stick around for series A? Do I want to stick around for acquisition? Do I want to stick around after the layoff, do I want to take this territory? Do I want... How do you deal with all of that, and should you really care as a CEO? And especially, maybe how it's evolved today, where some of the younger folks entering into the market, who seem to be laden with these existential crises all the time.
Chris Beall (10:14):
Yeah. Yeah. I treat it for myself the same way I treat all, what I call, fundamental churn. Everything in life involves things changing, people going through changes, people making decisions, people staying or moving on. I never really give that a great deal of thought. I think persuading somebody to stay when they want to move on doesn't make a lot of sense. Great to explore it, great to figure out if it's just something stupid that you're doing, or some misunderstanding of the situation and how it's evolving, that's causing somebody to want to leave. But when somebody wants to go because they do want to go seek their adventure, I think that's great. And I feel that way about customers, too. I think there's this obsession we have, especially in SAS, with holding on to every customer, and almost forcing them to be a customer forever. Even if it requires extraordinary acts.
Chris Beall (11:01):
Discounting, I think, is a bizarre and extraordinary act. I see discounting as making a lot of sense when you're trading cash today against cash need tomorrow. I think it's a form of financing, and that's fine. Money always costs money. And if discounting is how you're going to get that transaction to happen, so to speak, and it's at a time in your company's life when you'd rather do that than raise money from a VC, or some other dilutive, or control losing kind of proposition, then discount. Right? But discounting to keep a customer just to keep a customer, maybe you should ask yourself whether that's a really great relationship. And it's okay if they move on, and I-
Chris Beall (12:16):
And I think in SAS, we do SAS upside down and inside out. The upside down part is, that we tend to do it from the top down. We tend to make a model, and I just did this the other day, by the way, so I know what the lure is like, and I'll tell you what the model is here in a second. But we'll make a model, and the model has certain assumptions in it. And one of the big assumptions that drives the big numbers three years out, four years out, is this churn assumption. So we have a customer churn, and then we have kind of a net dollar churn that people care about. And then you also have got these other numbers, a little easier to lay your hands on. Cost of acquiring a customer, you're probably going to be closer on that than a few things. And then, what? Your...
Corey Frank (12:56):
[LTD 00:12:56].
Chris Beall (12:56):
Your ARR per net new customer is, and stuff like that. You're probably going to be within bounds, but churn is a funny one because it operates like compound interest, but the other way around. It's inverse log that you're going to run, and it's going to be really ugly when the churn is high. So we're afraid of this thing, and we manage our companies at the margin often, to artificially reduce churn temporarily, so that no one draws the "wrong conclusion," which is the right conclusion. Sometimes they come, sometimes they go, and that's the way the world works. So in our business at ConnectAndSell, for instance, it's a naturally churn-y business, in that we sell to vice-presidents of sales often, and vice presidents of sales have pretty short half-lives. About seven months after you meet them, they'll be gone. And it has nothing to do with you, right? It doesn't involve us at all.
Chris Beall (13:48):
We sell to somebody, and it's just the nature of the beast, because sales management by and large, consists of hiring somebody, giving them a territory, or if it's a sales manager, giving them a team, and a number. And then if it works out and they make the number, which is pretty much a roll of the dice most of the time, it has very little to do with what anybody does in their first year. But if they do okay, we keep them for another year, and if they don't, we replace them. Same thing with territories. So there's a lot of survivor bias, survivorship bias, built into our analysis of sales situations and sales outcomes. You wrote a very good piece once, I really liked it, in which you were asking yourself the question, "Why do I sometimes celebrate lucky deals?" That's like the dumbest thing to do in the world, is to celebrate luck.
Chris Beall (14:33):
You take your natural superstitious-ness, which will already celebrate luck on the inside, and then you amplify it publicly, forcing yourself to believe that what you did was material, when in fact it might've just been luck. So you have the same thing on the churn side. I think that another way of looking at churn is like this. When folks leave, whether it's employees, or whether it's customers, for a good reason, then you just improve the quality of the remaining stock. And quality is a harder problem to solve, quality of your employees, quality of your customers, is a harder problem to solve than quantity. So if you have a mechanism that naturally solves the quality problem, probably shouldn't fight it really hard. You can go ahead and let it run, which means you need to run a very robust top of the funnel, both with regard to getting new customers, and getting new employees.
Corey Frank (15:22):
Sure.
Chris Beall (15:22):
It's like a pot of water that's boiling away. It's a really good idea to have some more water around to put in there, but just putting a lid on it, and saying, "Sorry. No boiling today," is not really the right answer. So, that's kind of how I feel about it.
Corey Frank (15:36):
[crosstalk 00:15:36] All churn is not created equal, and there's certainly healthy churn. And the focusing on the churn that you have by discounting, and giving away dollars, etc., it's better off firing up the new customer engine, and keeping that going to find the folks that fit your profile a little bit more jointly, than trying to save, or salvage, or create a hostage situation with an existing client.
Chris Beall (16:01):
Yeah. There is, however, another side to it. That another reason that churn occurs in both employee situations and customer situations, and who knows? Maybe in personal situations, the churn we call divorce, for instance, those sorts of churns.
Corey Frank (16:15):
Right. Sure.
Chris Beall (16:15):
It has to do with something else, which is what Geoffrey Moore calls, "the whole product." So when we think about the whole product, say, what does somebody really need in order to get the full benefit of what I have on offer? What is all of that? It's tempting to say, like we said at ConnectAndSell for many years, well, when it comes to training reps to speak on the phone, you know what we do, we let people talk to 10 times as many folks, right? So I can look at my team today and ask this question, which is, "Well, how'd they do?? Right? Well, how they did was, in a big number sense, they said 28 meetings, and they converted 9.37% of their conversations to meetings.
Chris Beall (16:51):
Is that good, or is bad? It's above threshold, it's good enough to keep us in business, but when you come right down to it, and you look at it and go, "Okay. So what is the important factor here for us, or our customers being successful with ConnectAndSell?" It's not really delivering all those conversations. That's a brute force, mathematical thing, it's always going to happen. Somebody once asked me, "Well, when does this product not work?" And I said, "Oh, it's simple. It doesn't work on all days where three times five doesn't equal 15. Those are the days it doesn't work. But on days where three times five does equal 15, it really works quite well, because it works simply by multiplication of three times five." Actually it's five times three, I suppose, at five times as many people making the dials as you do.
Chris Beall (17:38):
And since I have a level of automation, you can't afford for your individual sales reps and specialization, they're three times as fast. And when five times three is calculated, it tends toward 15, whether it's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. So that's not the interesting question. The interesting question is, what do your reps say, and to what effect, when they get somebody in a conversation? Now we used to just say at ConnectAndSell, "Well, the ecosystem will take it." Right? The training ecosystem. They know all about the cold call. Why should we have to be the guys to teach it? And then we stumbled onto, once, a situation where we were obliged to teach it. It was an emergency to help save a company, to help save a customer of ours, who will remain unnamed. But they were in bankruptcy, in Chapter 11, being managed by the bank, the receiver, and somebody had taken many, many millions of dollars out of the company without permission.
Chris Beall (18:33):
And it had come to light late, and they had a problem. And I felt for him, and I made an offer. It was a really weird offer. I said, "Well, I've got extra capacity on Mondays and Fridays. So, how about if we just use a fixed price deal for a month? You pay me a certain amount of money, and you guys can use it all you want Monday and Friday." It was like, "Yeah. We'll do that. But now it's really focused on two days, we need to be really good." And next thing you know, this thing called Flight School was born, where the first Friday they prepped like crazy, and trained, and did all sorts of [inaudible 00:19:07]. And then Monday, they ran in production, but being coached. It was a blitz and coach thing, and just being coached on the first seven seconds of the conversation.
Chris Beall (19:15):
One of my colleagues and I just, literally, made this up on the airplane, like, "Well, let's do the first seven seconds in the first session, and call it takeoff. And let's do the value portion in the second two hour session, we'll call it free flight. And then we'll do the asking for the meeting part in the third session, and call it landing." And then, this was the clever one, and then handling objections. What do you do when somebody asks the famous question, "Well, tell me more," or they have some other objection. We call that turbulence, handling turbulence. So Flight School was born. Well, we didn't think it was a big deal. It was just like, this is going to help this one customer out, but we started to feel it. And we must've felt it more than we thought, because we made a logo for it. James [Townsend 00:19:56] Actually built a logo on a flight, so now we have this logo. That was years ago. Well, this last week we launched Flight School as a product, right?
Chris Beall (20:04):
Two, three years, maybe three and a half years, to get to the point of finally saying, "You know what? The ecosystem's not going to do it." So we were having excess churn because of our failure to see that part of our responsibility was to take the learnings from millions, and millions, and millions of conversations on our own use of our product, and put those learnings to use in a way that would help our specific customers with their specific problem. And the specific problem is, by the way, they are ambushing people 30 to 40 times a day. That's a very specific problem. Not they're ambushing somebody at all, you're ambushing... Each rep is now ambushing somebody 30 or 40 times a day, that's a new problem. Sometimes quantity makes a difference, speed makes a difference. You get something new.
Chris Beall (20:48):
It's like, we were talking about those big ships out there that have all the containers on them. And I got to experience the wake of one of those that goes a lot faster than the other ones. Well, it made a difference. A one foot high wake is very different from a four-foot high wake coming at you in the back of your little sailboat, when you're not paying attention. So I think there's good churn that just happens, and improves things, and then I think there's chronic bad churn, probably for a reason that you don't understand. And the resistance you will have as entrepreneurs, especially if you're funded, to doing the best thing for that other churn, for the one that you should have been providing more and you weren't, is you'll say, like I said...
Chris Beall (21:29):
And I said it on Tony Safoian's Cloud N Clear podcast, we don't want to be a training company. And that was a small minded thing to say, rather than just saying, "Our customers really need the opportunity to learn from us, and take that group of reps, and get them in the top 5% of all reps, in terms of cold calling."
Corey Frank (21:48):
Sure.
Chris Beall (21:48):
But we wouldn't... We didn't do it. I was stubborn, and I had this view of revenue multiples for evaluation, and a bunch of other stuff that got in the way of clearly seeing just first order. What does the customer need to actually succeed by their standards? Not some BS I made up because my spreadsheet said it would look good.
Corey Frank (22:09):
Right. Exactly. Vanity.
Chris Beall (22:10):
It is a kind of vanity. And so I have a spreadsheet I did just yesterday, and the day before, on this whole Flight School thing. And the spreadsheet says, that if certain occupancies of capacity is filled, and an instructor does this, and we charge this much, and we use this many dials, and we have this blah, blah, blah. Voila, with two instructors, I got $500 million evaluation. And I had to look at that really carefully, and say, "Well, that's good to have done the calculation. Now, put it aside and forget about it, and ask this question. Which is, on the Flight Schools that we're going to be offering, are they going to provide what the customers need in order to be successful?
On today’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey continue their conversation with Jason Beck, Vice President of Sales at Enerex, by addressing how sales got a dirty name. Chris explains that in ancient times, the salesman met the buyer face to face, but the encounter was usually a one-time transaction. Then, the camel caravan moved on, and if the buyer wasn’t happy with his purchase, there was no one to appeal to for a replacement and no one to lodge a customer complaint with. Ancient sales was a hit-and-run relationship that frequently left a bad taste in the buyer’s mouth about salesmen. But in modern times, the sale is never over, because the telephone and the internet have created an ongoing relationship between sellers and buyers. The modern salesperson needs to understand that you can run, but you can’t hide, which makes it imperative that reps provide value to their customers.
Jason and the Market Dominance Guys segue into a discussion of what type of personalities are best suited to be salespeople and what types should definitely NOT hold this job. The attributes of being pro-active and persistent are touted, as well as the importance of being in sales for the right reasons. As Jason puts it, “If closing the deal at the end of the day isn’t what you live for, then don’t be in sales.”
This team of sales-savvy guys wraps things up with a discussion of the cycle of the sales process for a new product and why it works — as this podcast’s title says — to Strategize, Execute, Evaluate, and Repeat.
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About Our Guest
Jason Beck is Vice President of Sales at Enerex, retail energy's trusted data platform, providing secure connectivity to the entire value chain — brokers, suppliers, agents, customers, and utilities — to drive efficient transactions. Their flagship service, Sparkplug, is the #1 retail energy sales platform in the world, powering over 10% of US commercial and industrial (C&I) transactions.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
On today's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey continued their conversation with Jason Beck, vice president of sales at Enerex by addressing how sales got a dirty name. Chris explains that in ancient times, the salesman met the buyer face-to-face, but the encounter was usually a one-time transaction. Then the camel caravan moved on. And if the buyer wasn't happy with his purchase, there was no one to appeal to for replacement and no one to lodge a customer complaint with. Ancient sales was a hit and run relationship that frequently left a bad taste in the buyer's mouth about salesmen. But in modern times, the sale is never over because the telephone and the internet have created an ongoing relationship between sellers and buyers. The modern salesperson needs to understand that you can run, but you can't hide, which makes it imperative that reps provide value to their customers.
Jason and the Market Dominance Guys segue into a discussion of what type of personalities are best suited to be salespeople, and what types should definitely not hold this job. The attributes of being proactive and persistent are touted as well as the importance of being in sales for the right reasons. As Jason puts it, if closing the deal at the end of the day isn't what you live for, then don't be in sales. This team of sales savvy guys wraps things up with a discussion of the cycle of the sales process for a new product and why it works. As this podcast title says, to strategize, execute, evaluate, and repeat
Chris Beall (02:16):
Sales is so delicate because we have to ask first what do they get out of it? And as an expert, can we be an honest broker and be on their side? Because it's actually imbalanced. I know more than you do when I'm selling to you. Therefore, I have to take your side in the transaction. Otherwise it's imbalanced. That's just simple. That's just a fact, right? And an imbalanced transaction will always come back to bite you because at some point there's a further relationship, except 2,500 years ago, sales done at a crossroads and the silk road or 1500 years ago or whatever, never see me again. That's where sales got the dirty name.
Chris Beall (02:51):
You'll never see me again. That's not the modern world. So I think of sales now, I'll call modern sales as different from ancient sales. Ancient sales was a transaction between strangers haggled under the time pressure that somebody's got to move on. The guy in the caravan has got to move on the guy at the crossroads, the trader, gets to stay, but has got to dump the inventory. At some point, a deal is struck and it's over. In modern sales, it's never over.
Corey Frank (03:19):
No, especially-
Chris Beall (03:20):
And that's the difference. Especially in tech. Right.
Corey Frank (03:24):
It's an ongoing relationship. And it's really... Maybe we shouldn't be coming up with... You're not a VP of sales, you're the VP of relationship management, right? At the end of the day. But that's really what it is. It's that relationship. I agree. And then I always thought that was very interesting, asking for the close comes so easy for me because if you talk upfront about somebody's problems, you discuss what different alternatives and how... What they're valuing besides you and or evaluating, right? Besides you. And then you pitch your solution. The last thing is, "Okay, now, now that I've showed you value and I've answered all your questions, can I have your commitment?" And that's never been the hard part of sales. I think, where it gets to the dirty connotation is simply it's on that upfront. It's on what you guys do. The best, Corey, right?
Corey Frank (04:09):
In terms of opening those doors. And I think that's the hardest part of is people don't want to be quote unquote, "sold to." It's great. Well, there needs to be a reason that we're here today. You have a problem, right? And understanding that problem first. So that was really eye opening to me Chris is how you talked about too that how important we are as salespeople. I think most sales people either feel they're super egotistical, right? And I'm the coolest thing since sliced bread or they kind of feel if they're not getting those transactions and they're not having success, that they feel a little minimized, right? But the level of importance that you just shared on that is is we're the crossroad, sales is the crossroads between how the economy continues to grow. That's a great way to phrase it, man. I'm going to steal that one. [crosstalk 00:04:56].
Chris Beall (04:53):
Well, everybody depends on sales, right? Yeah. See, I keep it. I hold a few patents as Corey knows. One or two or 16 or what, I don't even know what the number is, right? Some of them are, I would say important. Some of them are ancillary. The ones that were important were of no value without sales. The ones that were ancillary, ancillary. But even the ones that were important, in fact, the more important they are, the more dependent the actual value is on sales. And also think about this. When you patent something, it has to have three characteristics. It has to be novel. It has to be useful. And it has to be non-obvious to one skilled in the art. Well, novel means you can get people interested in it, but they're repelled by it because it's novel and therefore has not been tried, right? Useful is great, but things that are useful are solving problems that are already being solved. You don't get to solve new problems. You only get to solve old problems. Non-obvious means scary, right? And somewhat insulting. Like I didn't think it up.
Chris Beall (06:00):
So now you have this problem, the more valuable the innovation, the harder it is to sell. And therefore sales becomes ever more important.
Corey Frank (06:12):
Well, it seems Jason, then with that perspective on sales, how do you think if we really put you on the couch here, how do you do so well with this profession of sales, where the connotation and the denotation of what it means maybe is a little bit sullied to you or it's a little bit not as clean as, "Hey, I'm an engineer," "I'm a product marketer," et cetera, but yet you do it so well and you were obviously attracted to do it. What's that end result that kind of polarizes you to do a profession as well as you're doing it clearly.
Jason (06:51):
Well, cheers, thanks again for those kudos. I'm pretty big on personality profile tests. I really do believe that there are traits that we have as individuals that make us kind of who we are, right? As a person. By the way, anything that's about your personality in certain situations, it's a positive and in certain situations it's a negative. So for anybody who's watching this, like don't think just because it's part of your personality, it's always a bad thing or it's always a good thing. That's how you judge yourself. And yes, there are certain times where you have to take something in your personality, like my example is that I really care what others think about me. Now, I'm not fearful. Fear is... It's the end of that. Like it's the far end of that spectrum. I won't even talk to somebody because I'm fearful that they won't like me.
Jason (07:38):
No, but I really aim for everyone on the other side of a conversation with me to walk away that they got some sort of value, even if it wasn't a transaction, that they learned something. And I know you guys feel that same way, right? You're... I'm in it. And I'm in this game of sales because I want to provide value to others. And when they gain that value, I want them to remember, "Hey Jason, he was right. He came through on what he said, right?" And the Anarex team supported all that vision and this pied piper mentality that I have in our industry is to try to move people along. So listen, at the end of the day, if closing a deal is not the most exciting thing to you in the world, don't be in sales, because that is really what we live for at the end of the day.
Jason (08:23):
That is why we get to celebrate. I am in it for providing value to people, but I also really enjoy when there's a sale made and then that customer is happy. When we have our NPS score, which we just rolled out for the first time and it's 44, and it's like, "Wow, we're actually getting customers that are happy and they are willing to promote us," if, you know, for all those who know what NPS is. Right? That's fantastic. Right? And that's kind of why I'm in personally in sales, but that personality side of things, I do believe there are certain personality types that should never try the profession. And then there's other types that would never even know that they should try the profession and really should, right? And there's more of those I think. I think sales is something that can be taught. It can be learned. It is a skill set. It's not tips and tricks though. It's relationship and you got to be in it for the right reasons.
Corey Frank (09:16):
What are you working on as a sales professional now in your career. And then also, what do you see that as you were coming up through the ranks that you wish you would've learned now from a sales trait or from a perspective or from a talent or from a habit?
Jason (09:33):
Yeah, it's a really great... So one of my best skillsets personally, I think is, everyone will tell you this, so I have a funny story about this, is persistence. Persistence, I think is the one thing that a lot of people don't have that drive, that high D personality in the disc profile. That's only 10% of the personalities tested out there is the high driver mentality. And that's definitely my biggest skill set. I am more persistent. If you tell me that you want, you know, that, "Hey, call me in two weeks," you're going to get called in two weeks.
Jason (10:04):
Like to the day, to the hour, to the minute. I joke around with people and say, you know, "My bathroom breaks are scheduled on my calendar." Back to persistence for a second, my story with persistence is that my wife, I asked her out freshman year of high school and that was when we were, what, 15 or so. And she said, "No." And nine years later after college, somebody mentioned her name and I reached out to her on Facebook and then we had a couple of dinners and then we got married. So don't give up ever. Always be [inaudible 00:10:35] in everything you do.
Jason (10:35):
And so first off, I would say my number one skill set, and what has carried me through so far is the fact that I produce more than most because I am so proactive and I'm so driven. And I'm really trying to move things along constantly. You asked an interesting question though, which is, what did you want to learn earlier? Or what do you think you didn't know? So my first real job out of college, I ran my own company for a year with a friend of mine, but the first real job was Constellation New Energy. Constellation is a Fortune 500 company. It is the largest retailer, still as of today, I believe, direct energy and energy just merged together so they're going to be one A and one B now, like two of the top five just merged. Anyway, getting into a company like that as a 22 year old and learning the sales training. There's a gentleman named Tom Freese who write Question-Based Selling and a whole slew of other books.
Jason (11:35):
He came in and he, I mean, he's a high dollar trainer. Like if I was going to say, if I had a Chris or a Corey to come in and train my sales team, right? These are high dollar, high paid top tier consultants. And so having that training early on, that was invaluable. And I thank Constellation so much for that portion of my early career. And I think that did help set the stage for my... I started off in marketing. I was doing flyers and actually running them through the mail machine to make sure that they got out to tell the market and then my transition to sales was we were having so much success with the lead generation, the sales people were like, "Oh no, that one's too small." It was still a $10,000 transaction. What do you mean small? That's still a big transaction in my mind. Millions of dollars in business that we could be gaining. And so the thought was is start up a small SMB team. And that's what we did. And how I made my transition into sales and honestly it was right in the sales management.
Jason (12:34):
It wasn't even in the carrying a bag. And I said to myself, "You know what, I got to carry a bag," right? I got to do this cause I don't... How can you train somebody on what you don't know how to already do? So for two weeks, I called and just made sure that I could actually do this, but lots of confidence in myself and yeah, it was successful. And then honestly, throughout my entire career, I really didn't get back into sales, specifically carrying a bag and having a quota, et cetera, until this last role. Everything else was really sales management and leadership. Now it is this whole pied piper and I'm the one that's responsible for the revenue at Anarex and carry that weight on my shoulders and my team's shoulders. So-
Corey Frank (13:49):
Just to clarify, you are a sales leader or leader of your company who actually does sell. Chris, that's an alignment, I think, with some of your philosophies [inaudible 00:13:59].
Chris Beall (14:00):
Well, who's your rep, Jason, at ConnectAndSell?
Jason (14:02):
Oh, that's a good question. [inaudible 00:14:07] Don't even know. I don't even know.
Chris Beall (14:10):
Yeah. So I'm your rep and yeah.
Jason (14:14):
[crosstalk 00:14:14].
Chris Beall (14:14):
I mean, yeah, that's the answer, I'm your rep. And I believe that the intelligence flame front of a business takes place in the sales conversations and the sales outcomes that are happening every day. And as a business is evolving in the marketplace, if you're not out there selling in the front lines yourself, you will lose touch in my opinion, with how the business has evolved and you'll leave gaps for competitors to walk into. They get ever bigger with every day because the business is changing. The only way you can learn what's really going on is to clean off the windshield, drive the damn car.
Jason (14:51):
You have to. Yep. You got to be on that frontline, again, carrying a bag and I knew it was important early on. That was a great learning... But now with what we're doing at Anarex, I feel my role on the sales team is always to sell the new product, right? Because that, there is no playbook for it. Nobody's sold it. How do you even know how to sell it? Well, again, I come back to what I really truthfully believe in, which is, by the way, strategy is nothing without execution. Execution is the most important part of my cycle. It's strategy, it's execution, it's valuation repeat, and that execution part... I think there's a lot of people out there that come up with really great ideas. How do you execute on them? And can you have that iterative cycle? And can you fail fast?
Jason (15:37):
Can you make that process quicker so that you can get onto that next thing? And then once you have a pretty good way of doing it, it's time to hand it off to somebody who can make it even better. When I hired Doug and even when I look back in my career, I always say, I'm really good at getting that car from zero to 60, but then once it's at 60, somebody to take it from 60 to a hundred miles an hour, that's a totally different skillset, right? To improve upon an already existing process, I always think that that actually takes somebody that's slightly different. Again, this could just be me as a personality. I'd love to hear you guys' take on this, but I'm really good at figuring out what's not been figured out before. Once it's figured out, I think it's working. So it could be better, by the way.
Jason (16:22):
I'm not so cocky that I think my way is the right way. No, my way is a way. And somebody can improve upon that. So I like stepping out of the way at that point and then giving my baby, right? Or car over to that next person who can take it from 60 to 100. That's proven out three times in my career so far where that person has been successful at driving even faster than I have. But I'm curious, do you guys feel that that's different somebody to do something that's never been done before versus somebody that can improve upon a given sales process or selling of a product?
Chris Beall (16:57):
I think that the ability to take something from scratch, an innovation from scratch to market is a completely unique, I mean, very different kind of skillset because your cycle times for that cycle you described, which is the strategy execution evaluation cycle and then back to strategy again, has got to be really, really fast. And you have to be passionately cold and it's very hard to be passionately cold. And so it's not your baby. You kill that damn thing three times a week, but you come across to other people as highly committed and highly passionate and really, really interested in the outcome. So you commit a hundred percent to the execution that's associated with that particular strategy and implied by it. But your evaluation is a cold, cold, sharp knife. And when you cut, it's gone, and you go back, you tweak the strategy and you execute again.
Chris Beall (17:55):
I think that mix is rare and belongs in that zero to 60 part. There's another cycle time that's just longer. That's required to take something bigger if that's up and running and do the same thing, but to do it and have the patience to watch it play out. I don't have that patience. I just don't have it.
Jason (18:18):
No, by itself.
Chris Beall (18:19):
But if... I'm pretty good at what you do. Give me something new. I'll take it up to the point where now it's running, it's functioning and somebody else will do a better job than I do at taking that to the next level of big. Now, when you look at enterprise health, the issue with the enterprise is always that you have two things to conquer. You have markets to conquer with your current innovation, and you have the natural next innovations, which are never obvious to turn into something worth conquering markets with.
Chris Beall (18:53):
And if you don't do both of those, you just go out of business. We have a whole podcast episode called All Dead Companies are Equally Uninteresting, and it describes the process by which companies become dead companies by failing on one of these two fronts, right? So I think these are two different kinds of horses. I think the main difference is what is the cycle time you're comfortable with going from strategy to execution? So for me, strategy to execution cycle time is about a day, because I can't imagine working on strategy for more than part of the day. You exhaust the possibilities. It gets uninteresting. It's like, "I'm going to cross the river. I'm going to go with this stone, this stone, this stone, this stone, or maybe this one, this one, this... They look about the same. I'll pick this one. Okay. Now let's go give it a go, Oh, wait a second. That one rocks. My foot got wet. I almost fell in. Let's come back now. What? Okay, let's try this one," right? That to me is natural, but for some people it's not. So I think it's a big part of it has to do with your natural cycle time for running through that.
Chris Beall (19:57):
I also agree with you that execution is the key for a funny reason. And it is that the strategy itself will end up ossifying, it'll end up becoming a thing that is like set in bone or stone and becomes the subject of discourse, whereas the subject of discourse needs to be what happened when we did it? Not did we do it and did it work? Which is a completely different question, but what happened when we did it? And you got to execute cleanly, the very, very clean execution and not cheat in the middle of the execution.
Jason (20:37):
Example is this. I've told you about this. When you're executing cold calls, you must not qualify. The reason you must not qualify is that you dirty the execution on the strategy which is your list. The list is the strategy. And if you qualify during the execution, which is the cold call, then you're not actually executing. You're fixing the list at the same time. So you're modifying the strategy on every single conversation and therefore you get no iteration and you have a broken process and you can't evaluate and you can't go back and tweak the strategy. So done correctly, cold calling is the execution mechanism to take market hypothesis, which is the list and immediately turn it into something you can evaluate but I think that is horses for courses kind of thing.
Corey Frank (21:21):
That's right. That's right. In the last few minutes together, I think there's a good springboard into this concept, Chris, about being a specialist versus a generalist. Because I think with what we're hearing from Jason is that in order to kind of build this trust that he has in the marketplace, right? It's okay even though they're in competing industries or quasi-competing industries, et cetera. But Jason seems to come off as a specialist, which means it's... Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, right? It's okay. A specialist can always teach a generalist and then it's always all right for you to approach a generalist because you know you're secure enough in yourself image to take advice from a specialist versus another generalist. So what do you think of that, Chris, from what you've heard, Jason as far as how he's approaching the market from his vision, as, again, as this pied piper, it's regards to specialist versus generalist.
Chris Beall (22:22):
Okay. In all cases in B2B, the idea of sales is to allow the buyer who is a generalist to be safe. It's a risk reduction exercise. So the buyer needs to become convinced that it's safe to buy from somebody and that means they have to trust the specialist. If the buyer were the specialist, they'd just go ahead and buy for themselves. They wouldn't need anybody, right? So the salesperson by definition is the representative of the specialist and must be a specialist themselves. Now there's one exception and the exception is at the very top of the funnel, the seller is selling the meeting and the meeting is a universal product. So the seller is selling the temptation or the curiosity about meeting with the specialist, meeting with the expert, but they don't have to be the expert themselves. And that's why the only bifurcation, we get a function in sales, that makes any sense at all is if we decide to have a specialist in setting appointments and a generalist at taking somebody into discovery. That one can work, but you have to be very, very careful with it so that you're not qualifying because as soon as you qualify, you're saying you're a specialist.
Jason (23:37):
So true. You know and it's funny because I was going to ask before... Thanks for answering that query, Chris, because I was kind of interested how did you mean that, right? Because as a entrepreneur, when you start up a company by definition, you're a generalist. I wore part of a marketing hat. I wore part of a customer success. I wasn't just doing sales, right? So many more things that have to be done to really stand up a business. And then as you get to hire new people and bring new A-players into your organization, right? You naturally become more of a specialist when it becomes to what the role you do with inside your organization is. Having said that, when you look at it from the transaction or the discussion with the customer, if you don't have expertise and you're trying to actually sell the product, I don't think you can sell that product.
Jason (24:22):
You have to understand it better than the consumer like Chris just said, and I do find it really interesting, you guys take on this top of funnel, it's why I'm here. It's why we had this discussion. It's why what Corey and Chris were doing actually worked on me when I got that phone call and I said, "Oh wow. Yeah, I got 27 seconds. Let's go, let's talk." And then it ended up being 15 minutes, but it opened the door. And I really believe that that top of funnel activity, what you're talking about, that doesn't need a specialist. It needs the person who can actually execute on getting the meeting, right. And taking that next step. You want to talk to the specialist and I love that what you guys do with that top of funnel activity. It's fantastic.
Chris Beall (25:02):
It's also very delicate and it fails for the same reason time and time again, which is that instead of just selling the meeting, the rep sells the product or the promise of the product and the meeting is just about the curiosity of what might this be. And then a certainty, and the certainty is they'll learn. When the prospect comes to the meeting, they're going to learn and what they're going to learn is known in advance and therefore that's what you're selling. That's why we recommend that the breakthrough script has got these three pieces. One of them is economic. One of them is emotional. And one of them is strategic because in the breakthrough discussion, which is called discovery, you're going to learn something economic, something about handling some of the emotions that come about in your business and something about where you're trying to go, which is strategy, which you can use, whether or not you ever transact with us. And that's the key, it's the whether or not you ever transact with us that makes the meeting and the independent product with its own features and its own value. Until that happens, you have a problem, a psychological problem, which is an approach avoidance problem. That is you're approaching somebody and scaring them and asking them to trust you at the same time. And they avoid you. And what do they do? Well, they enter a state of confusion and a state of confusion they exit. And that's the false negative problem that plagues all of sales.
Corey Frank (26:29):
Very well said. Very well said. I love these conversations. I really do. Chris and I have had now four or five conversations. I've loved it and Corey, just... Everything you guys are doing. This breakthrough script that you guys use at [inaudible 00:26:41], I love it. And for all those, not that this was ever asked for, and the check's not going to be in the mail, but if anybody's trying to save time from their sales force, I'm a firm believer in what ConnectAndSell is doing. It is going to... I'm very excited to see what it does for my sales team, but it's going to alleviate this time that they really spend, the time that they hate, which is actually getting somebody on the phone. And that's a lot of time. And I'm very excited to see what it's going to do for our organization.
Corey Frank (27:08):
We need, we need to give Susan that little clip, don't you think Chris? From Jason and [inaudible 00:27:13] podcast.
Jason (27:16):
[crosstalk 00:27:16].
Corey Frank (27:16):
[inaudible 00:27:16] Dollars will come rolling in. Thanks for that, Jason. This is always the fastest hour in the podcast world for me. And I listen to a lot of podcasts and Chris and I know. We, besides my mother, we also listen to our podcasts a lot. Often times you plug Chris in and you feed him a cookie and you listen to the whole song here and all these nuggets come through. So well with that, Jason, thanks for joining us here in the hot seat on the market dominant guys. And every time we flip on our lights or pay our gas bill, we'll be thinking of you and all the help on crossing the chasm from all your other brokers and clients out there. So with that, this is Corey Frank and Chris Beall for the Market Dominance Guys. Until next time.
The Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, welcome a new guest this week: Jason Beck, Vice President of Sales at Enerex. Or as Corey dubbed him — the Pied Piper of Retail Energy.
The topic today? What leads to the adoption of a new product or service.
Jason is a big believer in the role of trust in establishing business relationships that will lead to adoption. “Trust is so hard to gain,” he says, “and so easy to lose.” In gaining trust, it’s a two-step program, Jason explains. First, be honest in the claims you make about your product’s value — not as you hope it will one day perform, but as it performs today. And second, find out what your prospects fear most and make sure you and your company are none of those things. If you’re trying to dominate any market, Jason continues, you need to be working toward that tipping point where your initial adopters, whose trust you have successfully gained, will begin vouching for you to your new prospects.
Chris, Corey, and Jason end the podcast with a frank discussion about that dirty word “sales.” They talk about the negative reputation sales acquired and why people fear being sold to. You’ll want to listen in for Chris’ insights about how to turn that frown upside down by shining a brighter light on the necessary role of salespeople in the B2B world. Join us for this episode of The Market Dominance Guys: I’m Not the Salesman Your Mother Warned You About.
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About Our Guest
Jason Beck is Vice President of Sales at Enerex, retail energy's trusted data platform, providing secure connectivity to the entire value chain — brokers, suppliers, agents, customers, and utilities — to drive efficient transactions. Their flagship service, Sparkplug, is the #1 retail energy sales platform in the world, powering over 10% of US commercial and industrial (C&I) transactions.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank of UncommonPro. The Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, welcome a new guest this week: Jason Beck, Vice President of Sales at Enerex, or as Corey dubbed him, the pied piper of Retail Energy. The topic today? What leads to the adoption of a new product or service. Jason is a big believer in the role of trust and establishing business relationships that will lead to adoption. "Trust is so hard to gain," he says, "and so easy to lose." In gaining trust, it's a two-step program, Jason explains. First be honest and the claims you make about your products value, not as you hope it will one day perform, but as it performs today. And second, find out what your prospects fear most and make sure you and your company are none of those things.
If you're trying to dominate any market, Jason continues, you need to be working toward that tipping point, when your initial adopters, whose trust you have successfully gained, will begin vouching for you to your new prospects. Chris, Corey and Jason end the podcast with a frank discussion about that dirty word sales. They talk about the negative reputation sales acquired and why people fear being sold to. You'll want to listen in for Chris' insights on how to turn that frown upside down by shining a brighter light on the necessary role of salespeople in the B2B world. Join us for this episode of The Market Dominance Guys, I'm not the salesman your mother warned you about.
Corey Frank (02:06):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and my very handsome co-host, with the Howard Cosell headphones on this evening, Chris Beall, the Sage of sales, the prophet of profit and the Prince of the P&L. And today, Chris, we have yet another guest. Do we not, the incomparable, Mr. Jason Beck, VP of sales for Enerex. And we'll have Jason certainly tell a little bit about his background, but most you could say at the very least he's a VP of sales of Enerex, but he's also bigger than that. He's an entrepreneur and he's an innovator and he's probably a gadfly of the status quo. How about that? I think we can probably describe, Jason better [inaudible 00:02:52].
Jason Beck (02:51):
What is [crosstalk 00:02:55].
Corey Frank (02:55):
Yeah. It's not just a bad thing to give and it's a good thing to give. You see you're proverbial fly in the ointment of many a mouse trap that you have come across. Mr. Beck. Great to have you on the Market Dominance Guys here, Jason. So Chris, why is Jason sitting in the hot seat with the Market Dominance Guys today? Not only is he one of your newest, best clients I have connected [inaudible 00:03:17] of course, but over the course of the communication and the relationship with Jason, there's something about Market Dominance, is it not that we said, we got to have Jason here on the show?
Chris Beall (03:27):
Well, Jason represents the world that I lived in forever, which is the world of what I'll call pure innovation, where you come up with something that's really new that people said, "Yeah, I don't know." And then you go out and you make it so. And so I've been doing that stuff as you know for way too long. And what's interesting about innovation, pure innovation and market dominance is they very rarely go together. So it's a wonderful thing to innovate and the stronger the innovation, the more dimensions that it has that are different from the status quo, the harder it is and the less likely it is that you're going to succeed and take those to market.
Chris Beall (04:07):
Well, Jason and his team have already succeeded in taking theirs to market. And he's done other ones before that. So I figured we could talk about this big, big question, which is you got something new and it really does change everything, maybe not everybody in the world, but for a defined audience, how in the world do you cause them to see the world in a new way and adopt your new thing? So that's what I'm interested in with Jason. I don't know what Jason, does that make a lick of sense to you?
Jason Beck (04:37):
Oh, it makes a ton of sense to me. In fact, I love talking about this kind of stuff. I think when you're ever trying to change the world or change just a portion of the small world that we live in and ours is retail energy, it really starts, a, with having a strategy but b, I don't think there's ever a right way to do it, that you strategize, you execute, then you evaluate. And if you did something wrong, that's the evaluation process so you can restrategize and do it again the next time. It's an iterative cycle and our story here at Enerex, I think absolutely prove that out in what we're trying to do in retail energy.
Corey Frank (05:11):
And what's broken about retail energy, Jason, that... You have this pied piper approach where you see a challenge, you try to fix it. And as Chris said, you get a bunch of fish to try to follow you around to see the world as you do. So maybe we can start with what was broken about retail energy that had you wake up in a cold sweat and say, "I got to fix this."
Jason Beck (05:31):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. And interesting to hear your guys' take on this as senior salespeople, right? People who have sold many more things than I've ever sold in my life. My background is I was in retail energy from the get-go first job out of college, worked for Constellation, the largest energy supplier in the country. And I was working on the supplier side of the business. Retail energy is a two-sided market. You have your suppliers, right? Those that are producing power or some them are just buying wholesale and selling retail, but you have your suppliers who are taking responsibility for that power. And then you have what has emerged as a very, very robust broker market. 82% of all CNI deals or commercial industrial deals are sold through a retail energy broker. Why? And that by the way that's changed over the years, over the last 10 years, it's gone from 40% to 80 plus percent.
Jason Beck (06:20):
And the reason is, is because it's a complex sale. It's the same reason why you would have an insurance broker or a financial broker. Energy's not incredibly easy to understand. All the different components that go into it. So just to give you that background is two-sided market theory. Okay, great. I mean, we have a lot of other two-sided markets in this country. I just named a few of them. And you also look at things like travel, which used to be a two-sided market, right? And now is more dominated by online shopping and online websites. I don't think technical sales ever gets there, but for our technical sales, what was the problem? And to get to your answer to what's broken the communication between brokers and suppliers is emails and spreadsheets and PDF documents, and just really old school stuff that, how do you automate and how do you get quicker and faster?
Jason Beck (07:08):
And how do you look better in the eyes of the end use customer, who you're trying to serve as an industry? Definitely not through old processes, archaic processes that don't lend itself to new technology and with APIs and cross system communication. And that's what we set out here to do at Enerex and realize that in retail energy, the only thing and what Chris talks about of this innovation, the only thing that existed is shopping websites. So a broker who would say, "Hey, I'm a broker. Hey, all you other brokers come work underneath me." Everyone wants their own piece of the pie if you will.
Jason Beck (07:46):
We're a bunch of entrepreneurs in retail energy, and that's not the way I think the industry comes together. It comes together by having a trusted third party that is friends with brokers, is friends with suppliers not competing against either one of those. We have a phrase here that says to be the market, you can't be participating in the market, right? Yeah. So and I really do think that's kind of part of the secret sauce but for again, when we talk about this introducing a new concept, that was the hardest part. We looked at it and said, "There's a better way to do what we're doing. How do we get from where we're at today to there?" And it's a seven-year big, hairy, audacious goal of ours to become the source of trust for retail energy.
Corey Frank (08:30):
Chris and I talk about this quite a bit. One of our earlier episodes, Chris, we talked about innovation, did we not? Where we talk about the bottleneck of innovation is go to market, not necessarily invention in its pure form. So it's been a seven year startup journey, but obviously it looks exponential where you may have this new mouse trap, but to actually get it to market and show this innovation economy, right? The friction is so great. But once you get out to the market in great scale, you said the key term, trusted relationships, trusted conversations, right. It gets easier. So from that perspective, a little bit on the journey of being this pied piper share with us a little bit about kind of what it took to have people see your way. You talked about the challenges, talk about some of the grease skids here that you've been able to achieve.
Jason Beck (09:23):
Yeah, that's interesting too. This journey, we set off three and a half years ago as PowerMatrix. And PowerMatrix, my business partner and our CEO Deepinder Singh, and I really grew PowerMatrix and the market dominance was Nate Richards and Nate Richards ran a company called Energy Frameworks. And our goal in the beginning was to serve the broker side of the community with great software. Now I'll stop there for a second and say, that was always our dream. Always our vision was we will serve the broker side of the market and then bring together brokers and suppliers. But when we talk to suppliers early on about this idea of API communication, a secure data platform for retail energy, they all said, "Well, when you get enough brokers to adopt that vision, call us," but that's who we're after, right. Just saying that you have a solution or showing a solution and no one's using it out on other side.
Jason Beck (10:16):
And this is why I think a two-sided market is so interesting because you really have to kind of get one side to buy in before you get the other side to buy-in right. But taking you back on that journey, that was always the vision. But we knew we had to serve the broker side first and Core was the Energy Frameworks product that Nate Richards was running at the time. And we caught his eye by growing really fast. And then basically two years after the start of our journey. And I remember it like it was yesterday because it was actually two years ago, three days ago. And Nate said, "Hey, Jason, let's get together for lunch." We're both down here in Houston and it was very quickly, why are we fighting each other? We both have the same vision and you're growing fast. And I have all this 10 years of experience.
Jason Beck (11:00):
Why don't we work together and dominate the market. And overnight, then we did become that. We now serve 100 customers, today we serve 120 on the broker side. And that was when that tipping point. And I think that's what you look for always when you're trying to dominate a market is the tipping point for the suppliers, it was always let's see you serve 100 plus brokers. And if you do that, I don't think there's any reason why we wouldn't talk to you. Now, we sit here today, again, halfway through our journey. We do have supplier clients. We're proving out this out data can make the process so much easier of a retail energy transaction. And that's really in 2021, what we're doing is proving out those efficiencies, but we have now participants on both sides. And where does that start? It starts with providing value to the consumers that you're providing software to. And that's what we focused on with the broker side to start off that journey.
Corey Frank (11:55):
Got you.
Chris Beall (11:55):
It's an interesting problem, right. I was intimately deeply involved in the world of marketplace, B2B marketplaces in '98 to 2001. I supplied the electronic catalog and technology as the CTO and then the chief strategy corporate development officer of a company called Requisite Technology. That was kind of we dominated the world of electronic cataloging for B2B. And what we found was that the chasm crossing exercise for marketplaces was fundamentally more challenging than it was for two set of marketplaces than it was for regular companies, because you had to make a choice buy side or sell side, so to speak, and then you had to make it stick. And until you made the choice, made it stick and provided the independent value. You as an intermediary were of no interest to anybody who in particular was on the sell side. So they wouldn't see you as being big enough, liquid enough or whatever to play with you.
Chris Beall (12:56):
It sounds like you you've done that move a little bit differently from most. You've taken us in a situation where somebody was across the chasm with the 10 years and you guys are approaching it at warp speed and you built a bridge of trust in order to call it a gossamer bridge and skipped across what normally would have cost a huge amount of money. How did you get to the trust point where that's even possible in that relationship? Normally that's like preying mantis city. Somebody's going to eat somebody's head before somebody else is going to have sex with them and it's just... Corey is used to this. So how did you do that? I mean, it's like you described it, but something tells me if you remember it like it was yesterday, then it's a little bit more than, hey, let's get together and have a little chat, right?
Jason Beck (13:52):
Trust is so hard to gain and so easy to lose, right? It is one of the hardest things to gain and the easiest things to lose. And when I think about trust and I think about how great relationships get formed, it is first do what you say you're going to do, right? You got to be accountable. So if I promise that let's say a broker of ours and it's like, "Hey, here's our value proposition. This is what the software is going to do for you." If I was talking about all these pie in the sky features that the software actually didn't have today, but it was, "Oh, it's coming, it's coming. Don't worry. Don't worry." And I wasn't as a sales person, very articulate about, "Hey, this is our roadmap." And a roadmap can change, but here's what I can do for you today, right?
Jason Beck (14:32):
That's the first part about the whole gaining the trust factor of this and why we've moved at warp speed. I also think that merging the two companies is another really... That's a how do you sign up 50 customers overnight, merged two companies that have 50 customers, right? So that was a big part of why we're here where we're at. And we've had very supportive customers in that. But I think the other part of trust, and I get back to this whole forming a relationship. Once you know your customer pool or your target market intimately, you have to figure out what are their fears? What do they fear about a relationship with you? And you need to make sure that you're none of those things. And when I say none of those things, I mean, not even the semblance of it and specifically in our industry, what does it mean, a brokerage book of business. I'm not selling widgets.
Jason Beck (15:17):
I am a consultant of sorts. I'm a value added resource. I'm a knowledgeable expert in retail energy as a broker, right? And I'm serving my end use customers. So what's your true asset? It's your brain, right? What the knowledge you have in your head as a retail broker, but it's also your data. It's your customer book. It's the accounts, the meters, right. It's all those type of things. And so why would any broker trust another broker with that data? So for Enerex, it was incredibly important that we have no broker licenses. We're not competing against you, Mr. Customer. In fact, we are trying to do everything we can to be your guide on this journey and let you be the hero.
Jason Beck (16:39):
As some of these [inaudible 00:16:40]. They're marketing new stuff that talks about that, right? Being the guide as the software provider, not being the hero, I don't need to be the hero. Yes. We might make this marketing incredibly more efficient. And if that makes a lasting impression on retail energy, I hope it does. But my main focus is how do I have happy customers, right, of our software programs. And that's just doing things that maybe they didn't even think they knew could exist and bring those things to market across the two sides of our marketplace.
Chris Beall (17:09):
So you had to defang yourself? Right in front of God and everybody.
Jason Beck (17:12):
That's right. Yeah. Hey, we're not that wolf, right.
Chris Beall (17:15):
Yeah, lets stay calm.
Jason Beck (17:15):
[crosstalk 00:17:15]. And it's funny because it's not like... We have one company that I would consider them as close to a direct competitor as I can consider them. And then there's a lot of indirect competitors that are trying to approach this, that whole broker of broker route. And there is such a need by the way, for brokers, we serve some of them. Broker of brokers are needed in the marketplace because how do you attract new talents, right. That person that's an accountant, but "Hey, if I have accounting clients, can I sell them electricity?" It's not a far stretch. I'm looking at your bills. I see your bills are high on utilities. Let me help you out with that.
Jason Beck (17:54):
I know somebody write the referral partners. So I think there's a huge need for those folks in the marketplace. I just don't know that they're going to bring together this solution, this trusted architecture of broker, supplier communication. And so that's kind of where we saw the need to be filled. By the way, realize you're giving up on short term earnings. A lot of short-term earnings by doing it this route. And your play is to continue to just build value with your clients versus trying to take a piece of each transaction today.
Chris Beall (18:30):
Yeah. I remember back when we did requisite, we had to do our own schema for all the world's product and service information, because we needed to catalog it in a way that allowed a buyer to have their catalog from multiple suppliers, but be easy to use and consistent to use for every one of their users.
Jason Beck (18:48):
You have a product that [crosstalk 00:18:49] SIC codes out there, right? Probably different [crosstalk 00:18:51] products.
Chris Beall (18:50):
Oh, yeah.
Jason Beck (18:51):
What a challenge.
Chris Beall (18:53):
Yeah. And we came right down to the product category in a way that was understandable and searchable and all of its attributes that were relevant for purchase. And we codified all of that. So it wasn't just SIC codes. It was right down to, this is a one half horsepower compressor motor with a capacitor start. It was that kind of stuff. And when we took that step, we thought we were entering into a world where we would be more trusted as a result. But then the community decided that because we controlled the schema, we were less trusted. And we made the mistake of naming the schema after ourselves, even though we just called it, Russ, everybody knew it was the requisite unified schema. We should've called it UNSPSC2, after the United Nations Services and Products [inaudible 00:19:41] and taking advantage of the fact that their trademarks were weak. Do you have something like that where you're doing the right thing and you know it's the right thing. But the impression that some people have might be [inaudible 00:19:57] they say it's the right thing, but it feels a little bit like a power grab to me.
Jason Beck (20:00):
But then I hope my client who I talked about this yesterday gets to see this podcast and I'm not going to do a direct channel, but I speaking to somebody the other day, great client of ours and he said to me, "Jason, I'm telling you this because we're friends. How many other clients do you think you have that aren't telling you this?" And I said, "Great point. That's a great point." Which is that fear of wait a minute, if you become the marketplace, do you just get rid of me, right? Do you even need brokers? If you guys have all the data, you have all the transfers, can you just go to the end-use customer? And by the way, the answer is, yeah, absolutely. We could. Now again, where I keep coming back to is the fact that you need that expertise in certain, specifically in commodities, things that you can't touch and feel, and the consumer product goods much easier, right?
Jason Beck (20:48):
I always say it's like a travel industry. He brought up the concept of the floral industry, which until this week, I didn't even think about that, right. But you had the same thing that happened in travel to all the florist in the country, right? You had Teleflora and FTD and they basically just started taking a piece of every single transaction. Oh, well, I can give you this and I can give you this. And then all of a sudden, well, I'm just going to go direct to the consumer. What I continue to tell people in retail energy and Cory, I love that. I'm going to steal that [inaudible 00:21:16]. Jason Beck is the pied piper of retail energy, trying to move it forward. And I have so many folks that have been backing me up on this journey because I know we can be stronger together, but it's this aspect of retail energy is incredibly detailed and it's different in every single state.
Jason Beck (21:34):
And it's also different in every single utility. Pennsylvania has six utilities in and out by itself, just that one state and it's different. The components of the energy transaction is different. And so if you're comparing, what your supply contract is going to be on the electricity side or you have to do nominations on the gas side, either you're an expert or you need an expert. And that's kind of where I say to myself, yeah, I understand the fear and I can't do any... I'm not going to like sit on a piece of paper and say, we will never replace... No company is going to literally handcuffed themselves for what the future could hold. But I continue to keep saying, and I really truly believe this, that in certain complex sales, you need an expert. And if you don't have an expert, it's very hard to navigate those sharky waters. Usually those are the people that gets their lunch eaten.
Chris Beall (22:27):
You're an expert, but you need an expert you can trust. So how do you get to the point of trusting that expert. Because expertise, confers power, right? So I'm an expert, I'm very powerful. And I'm very powerful if I'm on your side, that's great. If I'm on my side, you don't know if my side is your side. So it's uncertain and if I'm not on your side at all, I'm against you, then everything's very clear and we fight. So the position that is most dangerous is the one in the middle where it's like, "Well, are you on my side or not?" So how do you get them to believe, to know, not believe incorrectly but to know for certain. You said something really fascinating earlier, you have to remove everything that they would be concerned about, including the appearance, the image, the thought, the nascent sense, incipients. I love that word of becoming that thing that they would be concerned about, right. And how do you do that? What's step zero. What is steps there? Yeah, go look up incipients, it's a heck of a word.
Jason Beck (23:27):
Yeah, I will. I got my vocabulary [inaudible 00:23:30] really good. No, that's awesome. I think that when you are trying to... Is that everything you're 100% right. And I don't think you're ever going to dispel people's beliefs, right? They know if it's still a possibility, it's still a possibility but the way you really do that is you focus on the value that you're providing. And for the service that I am providing you, right? The cost I'm providing you at, and it's today, right? Don't worry about the future. The future is going to hold what it is, but today is that value 5X, 10X, 20X of what I'm costing you. And if you look even at the risk of the future, right, that you're talking about again, although we have nothing that could let us sell to end use customers today.
Jason Beck (24:19):
Again, no broker licenses, no supplier licenses. We just focus on software and technology. Is that a viable risk for you, Mr. Customer? And then they have to make that decision. And that's the tough part. I would say, you got to focus on the value you're providing for that customer. And if today it's just exponentially more than what the cost is or the future risks are. It's an easy decision to make for most customers. I also live in an industry that has not adopted technology incredibly quick and fast. So even still, even though when we say market dominance, right, Chris and I talked about this, we have 120 retail energy brokers on our software here on Enerex, our nearest competitor has between 25 and 30.
Corey Frank (25:02):
Yet already condition the market in your favor and against all these other competitors, current and future. And Chris and I talk about this a lot. I interview him and Chris, right. You know that the most reliable way to establish trust is to get to every relevant person in that market. And you as this pied piper, right, conditioning the market with forwarding, with trust, not with an email, not with a voicemail, not with a mere website, right. We see your website there, but in Jason and what you offer. I think that transference of the bits of what Jason has to say is truly why you're... He's following the playbook, Chris, what you say as far as how to get to a market dominance in this... The riches are in the niches. Well, you definitely are on the way there, Jason.
Jason Beck (25:58):
Well, thanks so much. I really do appreciate that. And when I was talking to Chris about this and I saw both, young blood in what you guys are doing in training up fresh people, right. Fresh out of college and giving them a really strong career in sales. I was one of those... I still don't even like the word sales. I don't know how many sales... That's another quick topic I'd love to transition to is this world of sales, right? Tell me how you guys feel about that in terms of I'm trying... Nobody wants to be sold something, right? So when we talk about this, I've developed trust because I've been in the industry for 15 years and I can prove trust out to you. And then those first few clients, you get them to be referrals for you.
Jason Beck (26:40):
And then you have the eighth person called the first in the 40th person called the 10th person. Right? And that's how you continue to grow is as you have really good relationships, but that's just happened naturally for me, calling, discussing, having those conversations, grabbing that trust, moving them to a transaction. And I get to represent a fantastic team of 70 behind me in this marketplace. But I will candidly still say that I don't like being called a salesperson. It has too many negative connotations. Now by the way, I actually love being called a salesperson when people are like, "Man, you're a great sales person." Thanks. What should work? Was that serious or was it? Right. So I'd love to hear kind of your just thoughts on that, of this dirty word of sales. What's Cory and Chris's take on that dirty word of sales?
Corey Frank (27:29):
Well, if you'd listen to any of the prior 63 64 episodes we've done. Chris certainly has sold his share products from fuller brush, et cetera. So I'll let him, I'll defer to age before beauty here, because he's got such an exceptional background that sales as a term may have a denotation as such, but the connotation of sales over the years, especially how Chris weaves it in and out of how the fuller brush experience has led to him being the innovator that he is at ConnectAndSell. I think really stems from whether you sell him fuller brush or spider repellent in the garage to talking with CEOs of... And private equity firms has to do with the trust factor that you're talking about here so adroitly here, Jason. So Chris, what would you say that Jason's concept of sales as a profession and the denotation that exists out there in the world today?
Chris Beall (28:27):
Well, I don't like sales either. So to me, sales has a bag of tricks, tips and tricks. I gave a talk once at American Association of Inside Sales Professionals event in San Francisco. And it was an unusual talk, my normal talk is about market dominance or about using the voice or about stuff like that. But I decided to tell these inside sales folks that they were the most important people in the economy and here's why. And so I broke it down for them, how the entire economy is built around B2B. And because businesses have to make stuff before consumers can buy them and all government can do is tax. So if you follow the money, you start with the innovations in business that turn into ultimately things that consumers can do. And so here B2B has been transformed from I'll call it, run around knocking on doors to accessing larger markets, which means more of them as remote.
Chris Beall (29:25):
If your solution doesn't have a geographical boundary around it naturally then inside sales, which is really just remote sales done professionally becomes the thing. And therefore, you're now at the beating heart of the entire economy. And perhaps you at the bottleneck of the whole economy, which means, hey, inside salespeople, your skills and your professionalism are the limiting factor in the growth of our economy for everybody who's alive.
Corey Frank (29:53):
Wow.
Chris Beall (29:54):
So take it seriously. So take it seriously, right. So I gave that talk, right? And I came off the stage and I won't say which of the people who was at the AISB because they are dear friends of mine took me aside and said, "Don't ever give a talk like that again, they want tips and tricks." They want tips and tricks. And I actually shuttered a little bit because the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is to use a tip or a trick. Now I know some tricks, here's a trick. If you're ever doing any public speaking, use the word blood and you'll get the audience's entire attention, 100% of the audience for about eight seconds. They will never forget the next things you say, that is a trick. But if you use that trick against your audience, instead of for your audience, you're a charlatan, you're a thief, so-
Corey Frank (30:45):
You [inaudible 00:30:45] every single bit of trust that you thought you were getting, right?
Chris Beall (30:47):
Exactly. So the trick of sales without sales being dirty is to literally think of it as a service business, where you have the luxury of becoming an expert in an area where the buyer doesn't have the luxury of becoming an expert and therefore you have the opportunity to advise them. And that advice given rationally with any kind of reasonable timeframe around their need will lead to a transaction. And then you just have to be willing to transact. The hard part about sales emotionally is that there's this thing called closing and closers are people like me who are willing and I'm telling you this straight up in business, I am willing to sacrifice the relationship as it's developing for the transaction that leads to you getting value or deciding you don't want to move forward.
Chris Beall (31:42):
I'm willing to do that because time is too precious. And that's a hard thing to do with somebody you like. And I think that makes sales very, very difficult because we have to do two emotionally impossible things. One is we have to ambush strangers with an expectation of helping them. And the other is we have to sacrifice relationships with the expectation of getting clarity as to whether it makes sense to transact or not. We don't like either one of those, they're both bad things in our personal life. In our personal life, we approached people that we wanted to have relationships with on an ambush for your own good basis. And then we sacrifice those relationships based on the fact that time is running out and we got to transact or not, then-
Jason Beck (32:24):
What do I [inaudible 00:32:26] right? Yeah.
Chris Beall (32:26):
Exactly. So it's very... Sales is so delicate because we have to only ask first. Well, not only, but we have to ask first, what do they get out of it? And as an expert, can we be an honest broker and be their side? Because it's actually imbalanced. I know more than you do when I'm selling to you. Therefore, I have to take your side in the transaction otherwise, it's imbalanced. That's just simple, that's just a fact, right? And an imbalance transaction [crosstalk 00:32:52].
Join us on the Market Dominance Guys as Chris and Corey continue their conversation about sales enablement with CEO Roderick Jefferson of Roderick Jefferson & Associates. This week, the guys address the challenge of hiring the right people for this function — people who have a certain level of sales credibility within the company. Roderick explains that in order to be a respected voice and get a vote when it comes to providing sales enablement tools and processes to support the sales team, you need to bring people on board who have extensive sales experience.
Now, don’t get him wrong: Roderick is not advocating a perpetual continuation of “Do sales the way we’ve always done sales.” Instead, he suggests hiring those who understand that what really works in sales is helping clients maintain their customer roster, and aiding clients with increasing THEIR profits, reducing THEIR costs, and mitigating THEIR risks. In other words, your need to hire a sales enablement team dedicated to having conversations with prospects about business outcome. Roderick states that to do this, sales people have to stop giving presentations and start having conversations — true discovery conversations.
----more----
Chris, Corey, and Roderick then discuss how diagnosing a prospect’s pain is only a first step in what we should teach sales reps. “Isn’t it a miracle,” Chris says, “that most salespeople act as though whatever a prospect’s pain is, their product will fix it?” The guys wind up this Market Dominance Guys’ session in agreement that sales reps should be taught how to get out of the way when their solution is NOT a solution. You won’t believe your ears at some of the eye-opening, jaw-dropping ideas in this week’s podcast!
About Our Guest
Roderick Jefferson is CEO of Roderick Jefferson & Associates, a global sales enablement consultancy that uses cutting-edge technology to enable its clients to decrease time-to-revenue and increase productivity.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:25):
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall, of Connect and Sell and Cory Frank of Uncommon Pro. Join us on the Market Dominance Guys, as Chris and Corey continue their conversation about sales enablement with CEO Roderick Jefferson of Roderick Jefferson & Associates. This week, the guys addressed the challenge of hiring the right people for this function. People who have a certain level of sales credibility within the company. Roderick explains that in order to be a respected voice and get a vote when it comes to providing sales enablement tools and processes to support the sales team, you need to bring people on board who have extensive sales experience.
Now don't get them wrong. Roderick is not advocating a perpetual continuation of do sales the away we've always done sales. Instead, he suggests hiring those who understand that what really works in sales is helping clients maintain their customer roster and aiding clients with increasing their profits, reducing their costs and mitigating their risks. In other words, your need to hire a sales enablement team dedicated to having conversations with prospects about business outcome. Roderick States that to do this, salespeople have to stop giving presentations and start having conversations, true discovery conversations. "Isn't it a miracle", Chris says, that most salespeople act as though whatever a prospect's pain is, their product will fix it. The guys wind up this Market Dominance Guy session in agreement that sales reps should be taught how to get out of the way when their solution is not a solution. You won't believe your ears in some of the eye-opening, jaw-dropping ideas in this week's podcast. Got pain? Have I got a product for you!
Corey Frank (02:06):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and my very handsome co-host, with the Howard Cosell headphones on this evening, Chris Beall, the Sage of sales, the prophet of profit and the Prince of the P&L. And today, Chris, we have yet another guest. Do we not, the incomparable, Mr. Jason Beck, VP of sales for Enerex. And we'll have Jason certainly tell a little bit about his background, but most you could say at the very least he's a VP of sales of Enerex, but he's also bigger than that. He's an entrepreneur and he's an innovator and he's probably a gadfly of the status quo. How about that? I think we can probably describe, Jason better [inaudible 00:02:52].
Jason Beck (02:51):
What is [crosstalk 00:02:55].
Corey Frank (02:55):
Yeah. It's not just a bad thing to give and it's a good thing to give. You see you're proverbial fly in the ointment of many a mouse trap that you have come across. Mr. Beck. Great to have you on the Market Dominance Guys here, Jason. So Chris, why is Jason sitting in the hot seat with the Market Dominance Guys today? Not only is he one of your newest, best clients I have connected [inaudible 00:03:17] of course, but over the course of the communication and the relationship with Jason, there's something about Market Dominance, is it not that we said, we got to have Jason here on the show?
Chris Beall (03:27):
Well, Jason represents the world that I lived in forever, which is the world of what I'll call pure innovation, where you come up with something that's really new that people said, "Yeah, I don't know." And then you go out and you make it so. And so I've been doing that stuff as you know for way too long. And what's interesting about innovation, pure innovation and market dominance is they very rarely go together. So it's a wonderful thing to innovate and the stronger the innovation, the more dimensions that it has that are different from the status quo, the harder it is and the less likely it is that you're going to succeed and take those to market.
Chris Beall (04:07):
Well, Jason and his team have already succeeded in taking theirs to market. And he's done other ones before that. So I figured we could talk about this big, big question, which is you got something new and it really does change everything, maybe not everybody in the world, but for a defined audience, how in the world do you cause them to see the world in a new way and adopt your new thing? So that's what I'm interested in with Jason. I don't know what Jason, does that make a lick of sense to you?
Jason Beck (04:37):
Oh, it makes a ton of sense to me. In fact, I love talking about this kind of stuff. I think when you're ever trying to change the world or change just a portion of the small world that we live in and ours is retail energy, it really starts, a, with having a strategy but b, I don't think there's ever a right way to do it, that you strategize, you execute, then you evaluate. And if you did something wrong, that's the evaluation process so you can restrategize and do it again the next time. It's an iterative cycle and our story here at Enerex, I think absolutely prove that out in what we're trying to do in retail energy.
Corey Frank (05:11):
And what's broken about retail energy, Jason, that... You have this pied piper approach where you see a challenge, you try to fix it. And as Chris said, you get a bunch of fish to try to follow you around to see the world as you do. So maybe we can start with what was broken about retail energy that had you wake up in a cold sweat and say, "I got to fix this."
Jason Beck (05:31):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. And interesting to hear your guys' take on this as senior salespeople, right? People who have sold many more things than I've ever sold in my life. My background is I was in retail energy from the get-go first job out of college, worked for Constellation, the largest energy supplier in the country. And I was working on the supplier side of the business. Retail energy is a two-sided market. You have your suppliers, right? Those that are producing power or some them are just buying wholesale and selling retail, but you have your suppliers who are taking responsibility for that power. And then you have what has emerged as a very, very robust broker market. 82% of all CNI deals or commercial industrial deals are sold through a retail energy broker. Why? And that by the way that's changed over the years, over the last 10 years, it's gone from 40% to 80 plus percent.
Jason Beck (06:20):
And the reason is, is because it's a complex sale. It's the same reason why you would have an insurance broker or a financial broker. Energy's not incredibly easy to understand. All the different components that go into it. So just to give you that background is two-sided market theory. Okay, great. I mean, we have a lot of other two-sided markets in this country. I just named a few of them. And you also look at things like travel, which used to be a two-sided market, right? And now is more dominated by online shopping and online websites. I don't think technical sales ever gets there, but for our technical sales, what was the problem? And to get to your answer to what's broken the communication between brokers and suppliers is emails and spreadsheets and PDF documents, and just really old school stuff that, how do you automate and how do you get quicker and faster?
Jason Beck (07:08):
And how do you look better in the eyes of the end use customer, who you're trying to serve as an industry? Definitely not through old processes, archaic processes that don't lend itself to new technology and with APIs and cross system communication. And that's what we set out here to do at Enerex and realize that in retail energy, the only thing and what Chris talks about of this innovation, the only thing that existed is shopping websites. So a broker who would say, "Hey, I'm a broker. Hey, all you other brokers come work underneath me." Everyone wants their own piece of the pie if you will.
Jason Beck (07:46):
We're a bunch of entrepreneurs in retail energy, and that's not the way I think the industry comes together. It comes together by having a trusted third party that is friends with brokers, is friends with suppliers not competing against either one of those. We have a phrase here that says to be the market, you can't be participating in the market, right? Yeah. So and I really do think that's kind of part of the secret sauce but for again, when we talk about this introducing a new concept, that was the hardest part. We looked at it and said, "There's a better way to do what we're doing. How do we get from where we're at today to there?" And it's a seven-year big, hairy, audacious goal of ours to become the source of trust for retail energy.
Corey Frank (08:30):
Chris and I talk about this quite a bit. One of our earlier episodes, Chris, we talked about innovation, did we not? Where we talk about the bottleneck of innovation is go to market, not necessarily invention in its pure form. So it's been a seven year startup journey, but obviously it looks exponential where you may have this new mouse trap, but to actually get it to market and show this innovation economy, right? The friction is so great. But once you get out to the market in great scale, you said the key term, trusted relationships, trusted conversations, right. It gets easier. So from that perspective, a little bit on the journey of being this pied piper share with us a little bit about kind of what it took to have people see your way. You talked about the challenges, talk about some of the grease skids here that you've been able to achieve.
Jason Beck (09:23):
Yeah, that's interesting too. This journey, we set off three and a half years ago as PowerMatrix. And PowerMatrix, my business partner and our CEO Deepinder Singh, and I really grew PowerMatrix and the market dominance was Nate Richards and Nate Richards ran a company called Energy Frameworks. And our goal in the beginning was to serve the broker side of the community with great software. Now I'll stop there for a second and say, that was always our dream. Always our vision was we will serve the broker side of the market and then bring together brokers and suppliers. But when we talk to suppliers early on about this idea of API communication, a secure data platform for retail energy, they all said, "Well, when you get enough brokers to adopt that vision, call us," but that's who we're after, right. Just saying that you have a solution or showing a solution and no one's using it out on other side.
Jason Beck (10:16):
And this is why I think a two-sided market is so interesting because you really have to kind of get one side to buy in before you get the other side to buy-in right. But taking you back on that journey, that was always the vision. But we knew we had to serve the broker side first and Core was the Energy Frameworks product that Nate Richards was running at the time. And we caught his eye by growing really fast. And then basically two years after the start of our journey. And I remember it like it was yesterday because it was actually two years ago, three days ago. And Nate said, "Hey, Jason, let's get together for lunch." We're both down here in Houston and it was very quickly, why are we fighting each other? We both have the same vision and you're growing fast. And I have all this 10 years of experience.
Jason Beck (11:00):
Why don't we work together and dominate the market. And overnight, then we did become that. We now serve 100 customers, today we serve 120 on the broker side. And that was when that tipping point. And I think that's what you look for always when you're trying to dominate a market is the tipping point for the suppliers, it was always let's see you serve 100 plus brokers. And if you do that, I don't think there's any reason why we wouldn't talk to you. Now, we sit here today, again, halfway through our journey. We do have supplier clients. We're proving out this out data can make the process so much easier of a retail energy transaction. And that's really in 2021, what we're doing is proving out those efficiencies, but we have now participants on both sides. And where does that start? It starts with providing value to the consumers that you're providing software to. And that's what we focused on with the broker side to start off that journey.
Corey Frank (11:55):
Got you.
Chris Beall (11:55):
It's an interesting problem, right. I was intimately deeply involved in the world of marketplace, B2B marketplaces in '98 to 2001. I supplied the electronic catalog and technology as the CTO and then the chief strategy corporate development officer of a company called Requisite Technology. That was kind of we dominated the world of electronic cataloging for B2B. And what we found was that the chasm crossing exercise for marketplaces was fundamentally more challenging than it was for two set of marketplaces than it was for regular companies, because you had to make a choice buy side or sell side, so to speak, and then you had to make it stick. And until you made the choice, made it stick and provided the independent value. You as an intermediary were of no interest to anybody who in particular was on the sell side. So they wouldn't see you as being big enough, liquid enough or whatever to play with you.
Chris Beall (12:56):
It sounds like you you've done that move a little bit differently from most. You've taken us in a situation where somebody was across the chasm with the 10 years and you guys are approaching it at warp speed and you built a bridge of trust in order to call it a gossamer bridge and skipped across what normally would have cost a huge amount of money. How did you get to the trust point where that's even possible in that relationship? Normally that's like preying mantis city. Somebody's going to eat somebody's head before somebody else is going to have sex with them and it's just... Corey is used to this. So how did you do that? I mean, it's like you described it, but something tells me if you remember it like it was yesterday, then it's a little bit more than, hey, let's get together and have a little chat, right?
Jason Beck (13:52):
Trust is so hard to gain and so easy to lose, right? It is one of the hardest things to gain and the easiest things to lose. And when I think about trust and I think about how great relationships get formed, it is first do what you say you're going to do, right? You got to be accountable. So if I promise that let's say a broker of ours and it's like, "Hey, here's our value proposition. This is what the software is going to do for you." If I was talking about all these pie in the sky features that the software actually didn't have today, but it was, "Oh, it's coming, it's coming. Don't worry. Don't worry." And I wasn't as a sales person, very articulate about, "Hey, this is our roadmap." And a roadmap can change, but here's what I can do for you today, right?
Jason Beck (14:32):
That's the first part about the whole gaining the trust factor of this and why we've moved at warp speed. I also think that merging the two companies is another really... That's a how do you sign up 50 customers overnight, merged two companies that have 50 customers, right? So that was a big part of why we're here where we're at. And we've had very supportive customers in that. But I think the other part of trust, and I get back to this whole forming a relationship. Once you know your customer pool or your target market intimately, you have to figure out what are their fears? What do they fear about a relationship with you? And you need to make sure that you're none of those things. And when I say none of those things, I mean, not even the semblance of it and specifically in our industry, what does it mean, a brokerage book of business. I'm not selling widgets.
Jason Beck (15:17):
I am a consultant of sorts. I'm a value added resource. I'm a knowledgeable expert in retail energy as a broker, right? And I'm serving my end use customers. So what's your true asset? It's your brain, right? What the knowledge you have in your head as a retail broker, but it's also your data. It's your customer book. It's the accounts, the meters, right. It's all those type of things. And so why would any broker trust another broker with that data? So for Enerex, it was incredibly important that we have no broker licenses. We're not competing against you, Mr. Customer. In fact, we are trying to do everything we can to be your guide on this journey and let you be the hero.
Jason Beck (16:39):
As some of these [inaudible 00:16:40]. They're marketing new stuff that talks about that, right? Being the guide as the software provider, not being the hero, I don't need to be the hero. Yes. We might make this marketing incredibly more efficient. And if that makes a lasting impression on retail energy, I hope it does. But my main focus is how do I have happy customers, right, of our software programs. And that's just doing things that maybe they didn't even think they knew could exist and bring those things to market across the two sides of our marketplace.
Chris Beall (17:09):
So you had to defang yourself? Right in front of God and everybody.
Jason Beck (17:12):
That's right. Yeah. Hey, we're not that wolf, right.
Chris Beall (17:15):
Yeah, lets stay calm.
Jason Beck (17:15):
[crosstalk 00:17:15]. And it's funny because it's not like... We have one company that I would consider them as close to a direct competitor as I can consider them. And then there's a lot of indirect competitors that are trying to approach this, that whole broker of broker route. And there is such a need by the way, for brokers, we serve some of them. Broker of brokers are needed in the marketplace because how do you attract new talents, right. That person that's an accountant, but "Hey, if I have accounting clients, can I sell them electricity?" It's not a far stretch. I'm looking at your bills. I see your bills are high on utilities. Let me help you out with that.
Jason Beck (17:54):
I know somebody write the referral partners. So I think there's a huge need for those folks in the marketplace. I just don't know that they're going to bring together this solution, this trusted architecture of broker, supplier communication. And so that's kind of where we saw the need to be filled. By the way, realize you're giving up on short term earnings. A lot of short-term earnings by doing it this route. And your play is to continue to just build value with your clients versus trying to take a piece of each transaction today.
Chris Beall (18:30):
Yeah. I remember back when we did requisite, we had to do our own schema for all the world's product and service information, because we needed to catalog it in a way that allowed a buyer to have their catalog from multiple suppliers, but be easy to use and consistent to use for every one of their users.
Jason Beck (18:48):
You have a product that [crosstalk 00:18:49] SIC codes out there, right? Probably different [crosstalk 00:18:51] products.
Chris Beall (18:50):
Oh, yeah.
Jason Beck (18:51):
What a challenge.
Chris Beall (18:53):
Yeah. And we came right down to the product category in a way that was understandable and searchable and all of its attributes that were relevant for purchase. And we codified all of that. So it wasn't just SIC codes. It was right down to, this is a one half horsepower compressor motor with a capacitor start. It was that kind of stuff. And when we took that step, we thought we were entering into a world where we would be more trusted as a result. But then the community decided that because we controlled the schema, we were less trusted. And we made the mistake of naming the schema after ourselves, even though we just called it, Russ, everybody knew it was the requisite unified schema. We should've called it UNSPSC2, after the United Nations Services and Products [inaudible 00:19:41] and taking advantage of the fact that their trademarks were weak. Do you have something like that where you're doing the right thing and you know it's the right thing. But the impression that some people have might be [inaudible 00:19:57] they say it's the right thing, but it feels a little bit like a power grab to me.
Jason Beck (20:00):
But then I hope my client who I talked about this yesterday gets to see this podcast and I'm not going to do a direct channel, but I speaking to somebody the other day, great client of ours and he said to me, "Jason, I'm telling you this because we're friends. How many other clients do you think you have that aren't telling you this?" And I said, "Great point. That's a great point." Which is that fear of wait a minute, if you become the marketplace, do you just get rid of me, right? Do you even need brokers? If you guys have all the data, you have all the transfers, can you just go to the end-use customer? And by the way, the answer is, yeah, absolutely. We could. Now again, where I keep coming back to is the fact that you need that expertise in certain, specifically in commodities, things that you can't touch and feel, and the consumer product goods much easier, right?
Jason Beck (20:48):
I always say it's like a travel industry. He brought up the concept of the floral industry, which until this week, I didn't even think about that, right. But you had the same thing that happened in travel to all the florist in the country, right? You had Teleflora and FTD and they basically just started taking a piece of every single transaction. Oh, well, I can give you this and I can give you this. And then all of a sudden, well, I'm just going to go direct to the consumer. What I continue to tell people in retail energy and Cory, I love that. I'm going to steal that [inaudible 00:21:16]. Jason Beck is the pied piper of retail energy, trying to move it forward. And I have so many folks that have been backing me up on this journey because I know we can be stronger together, but it's this aspect of retail energy is incredibly detailed and it's different in every single state.
Jason Beck (21:34):
And it's also different in every single utility. Pennsylvania has six utilities in and out by itself, just that one state and it's different. The components of the energy transaction is different. And so if you're comparing, what your supply contract is going to be on the electricity side or you have to do nominations on the gas side, either you're an expert or you need an expert. And that's kind of where I say to myself, yeah, I understand the fear and I can't do any... I'm not going to like sit on a piece of paper and say, we will never replace... No company is going to literally handcuffed themselves for what the future could hold. But I continue to keep saying, and I really truly believe this, that in certain complex sales, you need an expert. And if you don't have an expert, it's very hard to navigate those sharky waters. Usually those are the people that gets their lunch eaten.
Chris Beall (22:27):
You're an expert, but you need an expert you can trust. So how do you get to the point of trusting that expert. Because expertise, confers power, right? So I'm an expert, I'm very powerful. And I'm very powerful if I'm on your side, that's great. If I'm on my side, you don't know if my side is your side. So it's uncertain and if I'm not on your side at all, I'm against you, then everything's very clear and we fight. So the position that is most dangerous is the one in the middle where it's like, "Well, are you on my side or not?" So how do you get them to believe, to know, not believe incorrectly but to know for certain. You said something really fascinating earlier, you have to remove everything that they would be concerned about, including the appearance, the image, the thought, the nascent sense, incipients. I love that word of becoming that thing that they would be concerned about, right. And how do you do that? What's step zero. What is steps there? Yeah, go look up incipients, it's a heck of a word.
Jason Beck (23:27):
Yeah, I will. I got my vocabulary [inaudible 00:23:30] really good. No, that's awesome. I think that when you are trying to... Is that everything you're 100% right. And I don't think you're ever going to dispel people's beliefs, right? They know if it's still a possibility, it's still a possibility but the way you really do that is you focus on the value that you're providing. And for the service that I am providing you, right? The cost I'm providing you at, and it's today, right? Don't worry about the future. The future is going to hold what it is, but today is that value 5X, 10X, 20X of what I'm costing you. And if you look even at the risk of the future, right, that you're talking about again, although we have nothing that could let us sell to end use customers today.
Jason Beck (24:19):
Again, no broker licenses, no supplier licenses. We just focus on software and technology. Is that a viable risk for you, Mr. Customer? And then they have to make that decision. And that's the tough part. I would say, you got to focus on the value you're providing for that customer. And if today it's just exponentially more than what the cost is or the future risks are. It's an easy decision to make for most customers. I also live in an industry that has not adopted technology incredibly quick and fast. So even still, even though when we say market dominance, right, Chris and I talked about this, we have 120 retail energy brokers on our software here on Enerex, our nearest competitor has between 25 and 30.
Corey Frank (25:02):
Yet already condition the market in your favor and against all these other competitors, current and future. And Chris and I talk about this a lot. I interview him and Chris, right. You know that the most reliable way to establish trust is to get to every relevant person in that market. And you as this pied piper, right, conditioning the market with forwarding, with trust, not with an email, not with a voicemail, not with a mere website, right. We see your website there, but in Jason and what you offer. I think that transference of the bits of what Jason has to say is truly why you're... He's following the playbook, Chris, what you say as far as how to get to a market dominance in this... The riches are in the niches. Well, you definitely are on the way there, Jason.
Jason Beck (25:58):
Well, thanks so much. I really do appreciate that. And when I was talking to Chris about this and I saw both, young blood in what you guys are doing in training up fresh people, right. Fresh out of college and giving them a really strong career in sales. I was one of those... I still don't even like the word sales. I don't know how many sales... That's another quick topic I'd love to transition to is this world of sales, right? Tell me how you guys feel about that in terms of I'm trying... Nobody wants to be sold something, right? So when we talk about this, I've developed trust because I've been in the industry for 15 years and I can prove trust out to you. And then those first few clients, you get them to be referrals for you.
Jason Beck (26:40):
And then you have the eighth person called the first in the 40th person called the 10th person. Right? And that's how you continue to grow is as you have really good relationships, but that's just happened naturally for me, calling, discussing, having those conversations, grabbing that trust, moving them to a transaction. And I get to represent a fantastic team of 70 behind me in this marketplace. But I will candidly still say that I don't like being called a salesperson. It has too many negative connotations. Now by the way, I actually love being called a salesperson when people are like, "Man, you're a great sales person." Thanks. What should work? Was that serious or was it? Right. So I'd love to hear kind of your just thoughts on that, of this dirty word of sales. What's Cory and Chris's take on that dirty word of sales?
Corey Frank (27:29):
Well, if you'd listen to any of the prior 63 64 episodes we've done. Chris certainly has sold his share products from fuller brush, et cetera. So I'll let him, I'll defer to age before beauty here, because he's got such an exceptional background that sales as a term may have a denotation as such, but the connotation of sales over the years, especially how Chris weaves it in and out of how the fuller brush experience has led to him being the innovator that he is at ConnectAndSell. I think really stems from whether you sell him fuller brush or spider repellent in the garage to talking with CEOs of... And private equity firms has to do with the trust factor that you're talking about here so adroitly here, Jason. So Chris, what would you say that Jason's concept of sales as a profession and the denotation that exists out there in the world today?
Chris Beall (28:27):
Well, I don't like sales either. So to me, sales has a bag of tricks, tips and tricks. I gave a talk once at American Association of Inside Sales Professionals event in San Francisco. And it was an unusual talk, my normal talk is about market dominance or about using the voice or about stuff like that. But I decided to tell these inside sales folks that they were the most important people in the economy and here's why. And so I broke it down for them, how the entire economy is built around B2B. And because businesses have to make stuff before consumers can buy them and all government can do is tax. So if you follow the money, you start with the innovations in business that turn into ultimately things that consumers can do. And so here B2B has been transformed from I'll call it, run around knocking on doors to accessing larger markets, which means more of them as remote.
Chris Beall (29:25):
If your solution doesn't have a geographical boundary around it naturally then inside sales, which is really just remote sales done professionally becomes the thing. And therefore, you're now at the beating heart of the entire economy. And perhaps you at the bottleneck of the whole economy, which means, hey, inside salespeople, your skills and your professionalism are the limiting factor in the growth of our economy for everybody who's alive.
Corey Frank (29:53):
Wow.
Chris Beall (29:54):
So take it seriously. So take it seriously, right. So I gave that talk, right? And I came off the stage and I won't say which of the people who was at the AISB because they are dear friends of mine took me aside and said, "Don't ever give a talk like that again, they want tips and tricks." They want tips and tricks. And I actually shuttered a little bit because the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is to use a tip or a trick. Now I know some tricks, here's a trick. If you're ever doing any public speaking, use the word blood and you'll get the audience's entire attention, 100% of the audience for about eight seconds. They will never forget the next things you say, that is a trick. But if you use that trick against your audience, instead of for your audience, you're a charlatan, you're a thief, so-
Corey Frank (30:45):
You [inaudible 00:30:45] every single bit of trust that you thought you were getting, right?
Chris Beall (30:47):
Exactly. So the trick of sales without sales being dirty is to literally think of it as a service business, where you have the luxury of becoming an expert in an area where the buyer doesn't have the luxury of becoming an expert and therefore you have the opportunity to advise them. And that advice given rationally with any kind of reasonable timeframe around their need will lead to a transaction. And then you just have to be willing to transact. The hard part about sales emotionally is that there's this thing called closing and closers are people like me who are willing and I'm telling you this straight up in business, I am willing to sacrifice the relationship as it's developing for the transaction that leads to you getting value or deciding you don't want to move forward.
Chris Beall (31:42):
I'm willing to do that because time is too precious. And that's a hard thing to do with somebody you like. And I think that makes sales very, very difficult because we have to do two emotionally impossible things. One is we have to ambush strangers with an expectation of helping them. And the other is we have to sacrifice relationships with the expectation of getting clarity as to whether it makes sense to transact or not. We don't like either one of those, they're both bad things in our personal life. In our personal life, we approached people that we wanted to have relationships with on an ambush for your own good basis. And then we sacrifice those relationships based on the fact that time is running out and we got to transact or not, then-
Jason Beck (32:24):
What do I [inaudible 00:32:26] right? Yeah.
Chris Beall (32:26):
Exactly. So it's very... Sales is so delicate because we have to only ask first. Well, not only, but we have to ask first, what do they get out of it? And as an expert, can we be an honest broker and be their side? Because it's actually imbalanced. I know more than you do when I'm selling to you. Therefore, I have to take your side in the transaction otherwise, it's imbalanced. That's just simple, that's just a fact, right? And an imbalance transaction [crosstalk 00:32:52].
Today on the Market Dominance Guys, you’re invited to join Chris and Corey and their guest, Roderick Jefferson, the CEO of Roderick Jefferson & Associates, a global sales enablement consultancy firm. This trio of sales gurus outlines the whys and how's of providing sales teams with the information, training, content, and tools that reps need to successfully engage buyers throughout the buying journey. This is known as “sales enablement.” Sounds like a pretty simple “follow the blueprints” process, doesn’t it? And, yet, as Roderick informs us, if you ask 10 people what sales enablement is, you’ll get a multitude of answers.
Chris and Roderick discuss this quandary and, more specifically, how the pandemic has impacted training and overseeing sales teams now that each rep works from home, physically away from their manager’s watchful eye. Roderick relates this problem to that of an orchestra whose conductor is missing. Like so many other things now, sales enablement must be fine-tuned to this new situation. In order to orchestrate and conduct a sales team so that each rep plays their part and uses the provided resources in a collaborative manner, a major change must take place in how they are managed.
If you’re a follower of the Market Dominance Guys, you know that this episode will have you nodding along with the opinions of Chris, Corey, and their guest, and jotting down notes from their insights. Stay tuned! They aim to help you dominate your market!
----more----
About Our Guest
Roderick Jefferson is CEO of Roderick Jefferson & Associates, a global sales enablement consultancy that uses cutting-edge technology to enable its clients to decrease time-to-revenue and increase productivity.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:31):
Today, on the Market Dominance Guys, you're invited to join Chris and Corey, and their guest, Roderick Jefferson, the CEO of Roderick Jefferson & Associates, a sales enablement consultancy firm.
This trio of sales gurus outlines the why's and how's of providing sales teams with the information, training, content, and tools that reps need to successfully engage buyers throughout the buying journey. This is known as sales enablement. Sounds like a pretty simple follow the blueprints process, doesn't it? And yet, as Robert informs us, if you ask ten people what sales enablement is, you'll get a multitude of answers.
Chris and Roderick discuss this quandary, and more specifically, how the pandemic has impacted training and overseeing sales teams, now that each rep works from home, physically away from their manager's watchful eye. Roderick relates this problem to that of an orchestra, whose conductor is missing.
Like so many other things now, sales enablement must be fine tuned to this new situation. In order to orchestrate and conduct a sales team, so that each rep plays their part, and uses the provided resources in a collaborative manner, a major change must take place in how they're managed.
If you're a follower of the Market Dominance Guys, you'll know that this episode will have you nodding along with the opinions of Chris, Corey, and their guest, and jotting down notes from their insights. Stay tuned. They aim to help you dominate your market, in this episode of Market Dominance Guys, called "An Enabler is a Good Thing, in Sales."
Corey Frank (02:19):
Well, welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, with Corey Frank, and the sage of sales, Chris Beall. Today, Chris, we have yet another guest, I think. And our booking agents finally found time to get on the calendar with. In fact, I think he's probably the only guest we've had that can say they have a lifetime achievement award from anybody. Right? Well, actually I got a lifetime achievement award from Luby's Cafeteria, but Roderick has one from selling power that he got.
Corey Frank (02:49):
And so, Roderick Jefferson, the sales enablement OG of all OGs is with us. We'll talk a little bit about it, but sales enablement at Oracle, and at Salesforce, and at Marquetto, and way back even to Siebel. In fact, I think you did sales enablement before it was even called sales enablement, right? [crosstalk 00:03:06].
Roderick Jefferson (03:06):
I did. As far as I know, I'm the guy that actually created the nomenclature sales enablement. Oddly enough, there's one other guy that claims it. He could have it maybe, who knows.
Corey Frank (03:16):
Well, we have the right guest for the Market Dominance Guys then today, certainly, Chris. But I am curious, before we start though, Roderick, and we talked about this on the phone the other day, is when you get a lifetime achievement award, is it assumed that they put you out to pasture, and there's no more content coming out of that grape of yours, and there's no more good ideas? If you do happen to create anything that's good, that's fresh, that's new, what do they call that award then?
Roderick Jefferson (03:41):
You know what they say about assuming? So we're not even going to go down that route. Let's not assume anything. I think if there's anything else, maybe it'll be really cool to have something named after me. Other than that, who knows?
Corey Frank (03:54):
Like a Lombardi trophy. There you go. Perfect.
Roderick Jefferson (03:56):
Like the Lombardi. Kind of like that, yeah. The Jefferson.
Corey Frank (03:59):
Chris, do you have an award named after you, by chance yet?
Chris Beall (04:02):
Even my children aren't named after me.
Corey Frank (04:08):
Well, that's good. I think I've known Roderick for almost as long as I've known you, Chris. So it was great. And Roderick was one of the first clients that I had, that actually took my call before the pre 27 seconds. He took a cold call from me and actually bought something from me. And he hasn't been able to get rid of me in 15, 20 years, or however long it's been.
Corey Frank (04:27):
So it's great to have both of you guys on the Market Dominance Guys here, Roderick. So I appreciate you taking the time with me and Chris. Since we do have a short amount of time, I just want to jump into this concept of Sales Enablement 3.0. I hear some guy wrote a book on it, right? So you just released your worldwide bestseller. They're making it into a movie, I hear.
Corey Frank (04:46):
But Sales Enablement 3.0, when you told me that, I'm a little panicked. Because I barely mastered sales enablement 1.0, let alone 2. I completely missed 2.0 and right into 3.0. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what is sales enablement 3.0? And what did I miss?
Roderick Jefferson (05:04):
Yeah. I don't think anything's been missed. And that's exactly why I wrote Sales Enablement 3.0, is the fact that we have been doing the same things the same way, for 20 plus years that I've been in sales enablement. And I was looking at things from a new set of lenses, like all of us now with COVID.
Roderick Jefferson (05:20):
And I'll say the best thing that's happened, personally, to come out of COVID, is the fact that ... It's done two things. One, it's separated the practitioners from the theorists in sales enablement. And, secondly, it has made all of us get comfortable with being uncomfortable. We now have new technology. We've got all this great innovation around us. But we're still running programs the same way.
Roderick Jefferson (05:42):
Then comes COVID. Guess what? You can't do that. You don't get to go stand in front of folks anymore. You don't get to build that rapport out at dinner, or having cocktails, or out playing golf. Some do, but most don't get to do that.
Roderick Jefferson (05:55):
So I was really looking at what are we going to do different, and how are we going to do it different? But more important ... And both of you guys know me, I'm about the why. Why do we have to change? Well, the first thing that came to mind was we've got to stop being seen as a cost center. We've got to stop being seen as the fixers of broken things, and broken people.
Roderick Jefferson (06:11):
And so the thing that came to me was you train animals and you enable people. We literally have to get to the point to where it's not just about training, it's really about enablement. It's those five Ps: the programs, the platforms, the processes, and the people, that all just jump out at me.
Roderick Jefferson (06:27):
Here's the problem with sales enablement, big problem I have. And I love my vertical. I love my space. But we've gotten away from realizing that we actually are about people. We're about getting people bigger, faster, and stronger. So, at its core, Sales Enablement 3.0 really comes down to taking an innovative approach, focused on increasing sales productivity, through what I call a systematic approach to support the content, the tools, and the people, to drive increased revenue.
Roderick Jefferson (06:55):
So when I wrote the book, I wrote it as a blueprint. Because I wished I would have had this as I was coming up the ranks. I've been fortunate to do every role inside of sales enablement, from coordinator, to program manager, to owner, all the way up to executive level. So the book will actually provide folks with a blueprint, that'll help them to navigate the twists and turns that ultimately lead to designing, deploying, measuring, and iterating a world-class sales enablement organization, not just program.
Corey Frank (08:03):
Chris, to you, over the years, running and leading entire organizations, let alone sales organizations, what have you kind of seen ... We've talked about this a couple of times on the Market Dominance Guys, particularly alignment or misalignment between sales and marketing, and training and hiring, etc.
Corey Frank (08:21):
But what are some of the more advances that you've seen in the sales enablement 2.0, 3.0 world that we're living in, that adds to what Roderick is saying, that would've made the life certainly easier 10 years ago, 20 years ago, versus today, where you have these types of blueprints available?
Chris Beall (08:38):
Well, necessity is the mother of pretty much everything, and certainly mother of invention and getting it real when it comes to things like sales enablement. And sales enablement is broad enough that anything can drift in there, right? So you can have a big old, bright sun in there, and then you can have a little planet out there circling way, way far away. And you go, "Oh, it's all sales enablement. It's a big house."
Chris Beall (09:00):
But, to me, it's always been like this, if it doesn't address the bottleneck in the business, you shouldn't be investing in it. And one of the challenges I've seen, it's not just sales enablement, but everything it's about getting better, is everybody wants to be important. And if everybody wants to be important, that means everybody wants to have their thing be something that needs to be improved. But most things don't need to be improved. There's one thing that needs to be improved, it's the bottleneck.
Chris Beall (09:25):
And if you don't take step one, and go find the bottleneck, you're just messing around. You're just putting people to work. It's like, "What are you doing?" "Well, I'm grading the side of this road." Well, does the road ever need to be built? That's somebody else's problem. I'm busy grading the side of the road, because somebody gave me a ... Back when I used to work at McCormack Ranch building that thing, some Hungarian dude was yelling at me, and I had a rake and I had a shovel. And he said, "Chris, shovel you the concrete." Well, I shoveled the concrete, my friend.
Chris Beall (09:52):
That's what I did, right? Did it make any difference? Was there any why in it? Who knows? Because when you operationalize why ... You operationalize why by finding the process bottleneck that responds in this way. We make it bigger. We make stuff go through it faster at the same quality, we get more out the end, revenue. If that's what we want, it's revenue.
Chris Beall (10:15):
And sales enablement, because of COVID, has finally had to face the necessity of being more relevant and addressing the bottleneck. Because the bottleneck conveniently moved, in a moment, to a new place, which was communicating with your sales people how they're supposed to do their job. Because it used to just eat it up by osmosis out on the floor. And now suddenly there ain't no floor. So now it's like, "Oh, we actually have to do this thing." Now, it's still hard to figure out what you're measuring when you do that thing. But at least you had to do it. And that's necessity. So I think that we've had a really interesting transition.
Chris Beall (10:55):
You've always been a systematic guy, Corey. I could go out on your floor and I could see systems. I could walk out there. And I could say to the person with me from ConnectAndSell, "Look at that. See what those five guys are doing over there? I guarantee you, they do that every single day, that five right over there. Because this is a Cory Frank shop." So that's what happens, right? You've always done systems. But, for most people, they don't do systems. They just let osmosis do its job, and then they want to take credit.
Corey Frank (11:25):
Tim Ferriss handles the Titans. It's funny, Chris, we were just talking about that with the team over at Youngblood Works today, said very ... He interviewed Seth Godin, and talked about that very thing that you and Roderick are talking about, that departmental goals or vanity metrics, Roderick, which I've heard you talk about many times, right? Chris and I talk about that.
Roderick Jefferson (11:44):
Butts in seats and smiley sheets.
Corey Frank (11:45):
That's right. But, those departmental goals, those are for average organizations. But top tier organizations have systems in place that are replicable over time. And how many different ways can you attack a territory? How many different ways can you hire a sales rep? How many different ways can you go to market? There's a handful. There's not an end amount.
Corey Frank (12:09):
And so after years and years of sales in the digital world today, I think that, if you don't have a system, even if it doesn't work, it sounds like you're missing out, if you are stovepiping or tiering your organization into these different fiefdoms, marketing, versus sales, versus recruiting, versus training, retention team, account management team, etc, without a system to get them a snug ... And I think you used the analogy of an orchestra, which I'd like Roderick to kind of describe all this, correct?
Roderick Jefferson (12:40):
Yeah. It's collaboration. It's communication. It's orchestration, which, standalone, sounds like a lot of fluffy marketing terms, but it's not. And I'm going to dig deep ... But I want to double tap on something that Chris said earlier, is we don't do enough of finding the why at sales enablement folks. And we've got to go deeper on that.
Roderick Jefferson (12:58):
And to the point around the vanity stats, yeah, I believe there are two different types of metrics when it comes to sales enablement, one that enablement influences and impacts, and then another set that we own. On the sales side, the pieces that we influence are the typicals of average deal size, collateral frequency, deal velocity, pipeline creation, and velocity quota attainment, time to revenue, all those.
Roderick Jefferson (13:21):
And I'm going to say this directly to my sales enablement folks that may be listening, stop saying that you drive revenue unless you carry a bag. You do not. You influence and you impact revenue. The things that we own are the things like the accreditations and certifications, the needs analysis, the programmatical bills, the tools, the processes, the programs, those things, and sales.
Roderick Jefferson (13:42):
And then, on the success side, a whole other set of metrics that some claim we own, and I don't believe we do, I think we impact and influence, adoption rates, annual recurring rates, customer churn rates, red account reduction, those kind of things. And so how do you come about understanding how to get those metrics right, and who you need to work with? That's where the orchestration piece comes in, that you were just talking about, Corey.
Roderick Jefferson (14:06):
And it's literally the analogy of we've got all of these different pieces to an orchestra. You've got strings, woodwinds, percussion, brass, etc, that come into play in trying to do the right thing, and make this incredible orchestrated sound. Now, let's now akin that to the lines of business. You've got sales, sales enablement. You've got marketing, product marketing, engineering, product management, etc. And they're all trying to do the right thing for the customer or the prospect.
Roderick Jefferson (14:33):
The problem is they're stepping over each other. Sometimes they're playing sour notes. They're just a bit off. Until one person or one organization, the orchestrator, which I believe is sales enablement, steps up, taps the stand, and now all of that chaos becomes a beautiful sheet of music. That's what enablement does.
Roderick Jefferson (14:50):
And something else you said earlier, Chris, that really resonates with me, and that is there are so many different definitions of what sales enablement is. And I think if you ask 10 people you'll get 12 answers. And I don't know that any of them would be wrong. The problem is enablement does not have standard nomenclature, similar to what PMI has for project management.
Roderick Jefferson (15:11):
And that's kind of the goal of sales enablement society is to put that all together. I don't think we've hit that target yet. I think we've hit all the spots around it, but I don't think that target has been hit. So what we've got to do is understand what sales enablement means in your given company, based upon the maturation cycle of where your company is today, and also what the goals are of where you're going.
Corey Frank (15:32):
Chris, with a weapon like ConnectAndSell, you have a front row seat, oftentimes, of people who ... Their mindset, their goals, their heart may be in the right place, but implementing a weapon like ConnectAndSell flushes out all these misaligned enablement pieces in an organization, does it not?
Chris Beall (15:55):
Well, yeah, down to a certain point. Not all of them. Really, all ConnectAndSell is generally used for is to create discovery opportunities. It has other uses. But you have to be so sophisticated to make use of those other uses, that they all look like one-offs to me. They're fun to look at. I go, "Oh, how pretty?" But I don't go off and tell somebody to try it. It's like, "No, really? I don't think so." Oh, chasing down people who went dark before the end of the quarter. Okay, some guys use it for that. Great.
Chris Beall (16:24):
But I like the ones who go, "You know what? We got 250,000 folks in this market. We want to talk to 137,300 of them in the next three years. We want to set appointments with and hold those appointments with 62,150 of them. And we want to do that over this fixed period of time. We want to convert 18.7% of those to first deals. And we want 9% of them to turn into deals after a year or so, when the timing's finally right. Therefore, let's talk to a whole bunch of them. Therefore, let's not qualify on first calls." There's all a bunch of therefores that fall out of it.
Chris Beall (17:04):
What's funny about ConnectAndSell is the 10X. Because the 10X is weird. I mean, 10X's are really, really not comfortable to wield, right? They're not. It's like, "Hey, I'll give you a sword. It's 10 times more powerful. Let me show you how to use it in the house." Well, I don't have a house anymore. And now I've got to go live somewhere else. That's not much fun. So you got to be careful with something this fast, and you got to make sure you're applying it to where it can make a difference.
Chris Beall (17:29):
And the big thing I've seen is that most people don't know what would make a difference. They really don't. What they do in their budgetary process is everybody raises their hand, says, "I want some." And then the assumption is everything makes a difference. And everything doesn't make a difference. It just doesn't. Right now, only one thing can make a difference. And the hardest thing to do is to go find it.
Chris Beall (17:52):
And when you got something as fast as ConnectAndSell, you either find it, or you wrap that Ferrari around a tree. Those are the only two possibilities. And it's really quite dramatic. So we get to see that quick, violent bifurcation between aligned situations, or aligned enough, that you're actually doing something for a reason, that is you're going to move a real needle. Or whether you're just doing it because somebody said, "I want more. I want more. I'm like The Little Mermaid. I want more."
Corey Frank (18:20):
Is there one department more than another, when Robert talks about the different pieces of the orchestra in an organization, that you've seen Chris, over the years, that needs to embrace, albeit reluctantly so, this concert strategy more than another? In other words, I'm used to working in an independent arena, and everybody else supports me.
Chris Beall (18:43):
Well, it's sales. I mean, sales is the land of the lone wolf. And we take people into sales development roles, and say, "The only reason you have to do this job is so you can be a lone wolf someday." I mean, we do that. We literally do that. We say, "This job sucks, but if you do it for a while, we'll let you go lone wolf it up, and you'll have a lot of fun. And then you can just do things your way. You can reinvent sales. I mean, after all, it's a discipline that's only a few thousand years old. Maybe you'll come up with a new flavor of it that'll knock everybody's socks off. You be the person." So I just think it's really interesting that there's this whole sales and marketing alignment problem, that I think I mentioned once maybe on the show.
Chris Beall (19:25):
I talked to John Neeson way back when, founder of SiriusDecisions, co-founder. And I asked him, "John, what's the maximum conversation coverage you've ever seen on inbounds? Somebody's generating the inbounds, marketing's got them coming in. What's the maximum percentage you've ever seen spoken with at one of your clients?" And he just said, "9%." Long pause on my side. I said, "So, John, does that mean 91% of all marketing budgets are wasted, because sales doesn't bother to talk to the leads?" Long pause. He says, "Never say that to anybody."
Chris Beall (19:58):
You didn't hear it here, but marketing generally will do their job within parameters. And their job is harder than is right, because they're trying to take a stew of information out there, publicly available information, and turn it into some kind of a list of folks worth talking to. I mean, really that's what it is, right? Sales tends to approach the job like this. Eh, I don't like that one. Why? Well, I assume it's no good, because it looks kind of like this other one I didn't like. That's where the variety shows up first. And we encourage it, and fan the flames all the way through the sales process.
Roderick Jefferson (20:31):
Chris, you're absolutely right. And, for so long, it's been the nomenclature of sales is the sun. And the further you get away from the sun, the colder it gets, which there is some truth to that. But, at the same time, I love what you were just saying. Too many times in my career, I've seen where marketing says, "We give so many leads to sales, and they never do anything with them." Sales in turn says, "Yeah, you give us leads, but they all suck."
Roderick Jefferson (20:56):
And I've asked one question, and that question is, have you guys ever actually sat down at the same table and defined and agreed upon what a sales or a marketing qualified lead actually looks like? Long pause, to use your words. And the answer is, generally, why would we do that? We know what they need. And sales says, "We know what we need." Yeah. But have you actually ever told each other what those are? Generally the answer is not yes.
Chris Beall (21:23):
Generally, the answer is not yes. And what's really interesting ... And, Roderick, I come from a weird background, right? I'm a physicist who used to build big software systems. That's what I did for a living, right? So here's how I build big software system. I draw a big circle on a whiteboard. I draw a line. I'm going to do this from your perspective. It comes out from the right-hand side. It's got an arrow on it. I put a little stick figure at the end of it. I say, "Here's what we're going to build. Here's its only output it's allowed to have."
Chris Beall (21:47):
Right now, in our minds, we're only allowed one output. No compound sentences need apply. There's somebody that's an actual human being somewhere on earth, nowhere else. They got a title, they got a job, they got responsibilities. And then I put a little dollar sign over it, goes, "When one unit of this output goes to this person, how many dollars are saved, or how many are made by them, or the organization they're responsible for?" That's a why on a system. Real simple.
Chris Beall (22:14):
Then you ask the key question, which is what is the minimum input ... What are the minimum inputs required to make one unit of output? How good do they have to be? Now, if you can answer that question in sales, you're golden, right? You're golden. Sales is a system that produces an output, called a deal. Somebody makes money off the deal. What are the minimum inputs, and are they available. That's what nobody asks, are they available?
Chris Beall (22:40):
So sales goes, "Well, I want inputs that I want it to be good." Well, what if good's not available out there? That is, what if the information required to get past what you're getting right now isn't available? Well, you got to finish it. And that means, among human beings, you've got to talk to somebody. So my suggestion would be this. They should get together, just like you said. But how about if they got together with 20 perfect prospects, one at a time?
Roderick Jefferson (23:08):
Absolutely. That's step two. They've got to get past each other first. Right? Then sit down with that perfect prospect together. Yeah.
Chris Beall (23:17):
But do they do it? No. And I think the reason is politics. When you come right down to it, budgetary politics, rules, organizations. Somebody gets the money, right? So if I say that I need you, then I'm implicitly saying, "I need you to get some of the money that's coming to me."
Chris Beall (23:36):
And that I think is the big problem that keeps ... I think that keeps sales enablement from being appropriately at the table, more than anything else. Because it's like, "Well, we already how much money there is. So now we're kind of done."
Roderick Jefferson (23:49):
Yeah. That's like trying to go to a client after the hour, and P is already written. A little late now.
Chris Beall (23:55):
That's a great example. A little late now.
Roderick Jefferson (23:58):
Yeah. A little late now. Thanks for the input. But it's already in ink.
Chris Beall (24:02):
Where's the CEO, is my question. You want results as a CEO, why aren't you at that meeting?
Roderick Jefferson (24:09):
Oh, great question. And, as a sales enablement practitioner, that's one of the things that I always push for. And that is we cannot have sales enablement initiatives. We have to have sales enablement woven into the fabric of the company. And that only happens from the top down.
Roderick Jefferson (24:23):
If this is one of their top three or top five initiatives for the year, then you get movement, because you've got some wood behind the arrow. But if it's sales enablement saying, "I need you to do this," or in some cases, "It would be really nice if you kind of sort of maybe might think about doing this," then you're not going to get anywhere. Because now you're a nuisance, and you're bringing no value.
Roderick Jefferson (24:44):
The value comes when it comes from C-level down, and they say, "This is the direction we're going. And in order for us to hit these success metrics, it requires that each of you communicate, collaborate, and orchestrate together. Now, go play together and figure out how it's done. And if you can't figure it out, then I'm going to have to jump in and help you figure it out. And that's not going to be nearly as pleasant of a conversation."
Chris Beall (25:06):
Yeah. Well, there's a fun one there, which is ... And this nobody will do, but I like to throw it out there, because I do it out of probably personality disorder, or some other illness that has not yet [crosstalk 00:25:17].
Roderick Jefferson (25:16):
Your crazy idea of fun, Chris?
Chris Beall (25:18):
Yeah. I got a funny idea of fun, which is, when the CEO goes and sells, and sells real deals, just like everybody else, little ones, big ones, not swoops in on the big ones, but actually sells, sources new deals and sells new deals, you find out what sales enablement needs to provide in a hurry. Because that poor sucker needs what he needs, or she needs, and that stuff's going to happen.
Chris Beall (25:41):
And then the question is how do you keep it from being idiosyncratic? How do you keep it from being a one-off for the boss? But if you can take that information back, which is like, "Wait a minute. I got one, right?" That happens to me all the time. I finish a process, part of a process. So I sell a little bit. And I finished part of the process.
Chris Beall (26:02):
And I go to put that information in the CRM, and there's a required field I don't know the answer to. In fact, I don't even know what it means. I literally do not know what it means. And when I asked somebody, they say, "Oh, we always put X in there," whatever X is. I said, "Well, why do we do that?" Well, because that way the required field's filled in, right?
Roderick Jefferson (26:21):
Then required becomes relative.
Chris Beall (26:23):
Right. And I think we have a lot of stuff like that, that if the CEO is selling, you find out in a hurry that there's a lot of things we ask salespeople to do that are utter nonsense. And then we don't provide them with stuff that is utter-esence, that's the essence of getting the job done. So have the CEO sell, that's my recommendation, Corey.
Corey Frank (26:49):
Have a company of all former CEOs, and they become the sales organization. That's it, right?
Chris Beall (26:55):
Poor guy doesn't have to sell forever, but I don't like CEOs just selling big deals, the swoop swoop. I just hate that [inaudible 00:27:01]. If I'm going to do it, my thing is give me little ones, give me the trash, throw me the stuff nobody else wants.
Roderick Jefferson (27:08):
Because can't set an example by being a super closer, right? If you only come in and swoop in on the big ones, then you really have no idea what it takes to close those. And, to your point, if the internal pieces actually talk to each other, beyond just the CEO, right?
Roderick Jefferson (27:22):
And I think that's another one of the key values of true sales enablement, is that we're what I call the translators of dialects and languages. So we've got to be able to speak marketing, product marketing, engineering, HR, etc. As an old sales guy myself, and I'm back here, I loved going out. And miss those pieces of being able to go out with sales folks.
Roderick Jefferson (27:44):
Because I could go and listen to 10, 12 prospects, customers, and come back and say, "Hey, product marketing, marketing, loved the company pitch. But we get the slide seven, one of two things happens, either no one uses it, or I've heard it described 10 different ways. Can you either smooth that thing out or get rid of it?" Then I can go to product management and say, "Hey, I've had eight different prospects asked for the same feature. How do we get it moved up on the release cycle?"
Roderick Jefferson (28:09):
Then I go back to sales and to HR and say, "Folks, what I'm realizing is we've got our ICP, our ideal client or customer profile nailed. What we really lack in is we don't know what our IEP is, our ideal employee profile. Because we're not in a different maturation cycle, and we're still hiring like it was yesterday. So what we need really is to look at and identify and address where we're going. Maybe we need a more senior person. Maybe we need to go and hire folks from different verticals or different companies, or even the BDRs, SDRs. Let's look outside of those top 10 schools that we always go and look at, and we're not getting what we need. If we keep hiring the way that we did, we'll get to the edge of the chasm, but we'll never get across."
Roderick Jefferson (28:52):
Now, bear in mind, you've got to have a little level of credibility to be able to say these things. But if you don't say it, then you're a theorist. You're not a true self enablement practitioner.
In this follow-up to last week’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, “Your Sales People Are Brain Surgeons,” Chris and Corey have another conversation with ConnectAndSell’s customer success manager, Donny Crawford, about using the telephone plus your beliefs to gain market dominance.
First things first, they discuss how to get prospects on the phone who are the most likely to set a meeting with you. It sounds like a numbers game — more dialing equals more people picking up the phone, which equals more meetings set, right? But as every sales rep knows, you can lead a prospect to a conversation, but you can’t make them link you to their calendar. That rate of success is fairly low. In his experience calling on prospects, though, Donny discovered an amazing way to increase the dial-to-meeting conversion rate: make more calls to people on your follow-up list. He found out that if at first you don’t succeed, call, call, call again. Wait till you hear what his success rate is — and then listen to the story Chris tells about follow-up calls, which corroborates Donny’s experience.
----more----
Donny also shares the most important key for success in a cold call, and then he lists for you all the other ingredients in his proven recipe for successful conversations with prospects, one of which is his practice of listening to his own recorded cold calls to hone his ability to sound human.
As Corey says in the wind-up to this interview, what we’ve got here is “another great, fantastic episode of the Market Dominance Guys!” We sure do!
About Our Guest Donny Crawford is a Customer Success Manager for ConnectAndSell. He is responsible for providing Flight School training to sales representatives of ConnectAndSell customers in order to help them become more effective and successful when cold calling.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 3 (00:40):
This follow-up to last week's Market Dominance Guys podcast Your Salespeople are Brain Surgeons, Chris and Corey have another conversation with ConnectAndSell's customer success manager, Donny Crawford, about using the telephone plus your beliefs to gain market dominance. First things first, they discuss how to get prospects on the phone who are most likely to set a meeting with you. It sounds like a numbers game. More dialing equals more people picking up the phone, which equals more meetings set. As every sales rep knows, you can lead a prospect to the conversation, but you can't make them link you to their calendar. That rate of success is fairly low. In his experience calling on prospects though, Donny discovered an amazing way to increase the dial-to-meeting conversion rate, make more calls to people on your follow-up list. He found out that if at first you don't succeed, call, call, call again. Wait until you hear what his success rate is.
Then, listen to the story Chris tells about follow-up calls, which corroborates Donny's experience. Donny also shares the most important key for success in a cold call. He lists for you all the other ingredients in his proven recipe for successful conversations with prospects, one of which is his practice of listening to his own recorded cold calls to hone his ability to sound human. As Corey says in the windup to this interview, "What we've got here is another great, fantastic episode of the Market Dominance Guys." We sure do. Join us for this episode, Never Never Never Retire a Follow-Up Call.
Chris Beall (02:15):
There are some weird sub lists that are out there, but you're right, Donny. The big question is, do they trust you? If you handle the first seven seconds of the first conversation right, they trust you for the rest of their life, and it's not a voluntary thing, unless you blow it.
Corey Frank (02:31):
Well, that's true. We talked about that many times, about the trust. I'm curious about... Let's talk some turkey here on some actual conversion rates. Just ballpark conversion rates here, Donny, of what you've seen from maybe dial to meeting. Implementing this practice, if I didn't, if I'm an average inside sales leader on the street, and maybe I use a dialer. Maybe I don't. Maybe I use ConnectandSell. Maybe I don't. I'm probably in the what dial to meeting range, would you say? Just an at rest, average inside sales team?
Donny Crawford (03:12):
I don't know. Chris, would you say probably somewhere in the 500 to 700 dials to get a meeting range?
Chris Beall (03:17):
Yeah, it's pretty normal to see... 500 is a reasonable cold number.
Corey Frank (03:22):
Yeah. That's what I would say. Maybe a little bit higher for tougher gets, if the persona or ICP is higher, and then my contact conversion rate. For every hundred people I talk to, for instance, on a given day, what should I expect? Four? Five? I don't know. Maybe a little bit more, a little bit less? What do you generally see?
Donny Crawford (03:44):
I would say the less trained sales rep who's on their own doing what feels comfortable is, on average, going to set meetings around maybe 3% of the time on a first conversation, maybe 4%. The well trained, the well honed in skilled cold caller, the person who is having those initial conversations, I think that can rise up to 5% to 7%, 7% to 9% for a first conversation. For a first conversation, most of the time, the majority of the time, probably 90 out of 100 conversations, they're not going to turn into a meeting that first conversation. It's okay. Everyone needs to be okay with that.
Corey Frank (04:29):
Okay. What have you seen after you go to the flight school to implement this process that... I love the fact that a lot of it was implemented under duress. You had this Damocles plan hanging over to you, all the best ideas. I had a friend... All the best ideas come from being in the vicinity of porcelain in the bathroom, in the shower, or wherever. The second best ideas come under duress under stress. It sounds like this concept of the follow-ups here. What have you seen from some of the ratios, some of the ranges of a conversation percentage? When you have a proud graduate student of the Donny Crawford Academy, what can I expect to see?
Donny Crawford (05:15):
What's nice is that you can almost break it down to the actual follow-up number. On a first conversation, if you're scheduling at about a 5% rate, then you can almost expect that the second conversation itself will be around a 10% to 11% rate to schedule meetings on just the second conversation with the prospects that you're reaching. On the third conversation, if you actually happen to be able to get a second follow-up in there, you're going to convert at around a 16% rate on a third conversation with the prospect.
Corey Frank (05:51):
With those numbers, I don't want to lead the witness here, but for Chris had Dottie, is that a great equalizer? Even if I'm a rep that maybe struggles with my empathy, my pitch, my messaging, the fact that I am still following this process, you don't have to sell it. You don't have to be a Tony Award winning actor on stage to sell it. Just following this methodology, I'm going to see a 3x from what I would if I was just purely calling cold.
Donny Crawford (06:25):
Conversation to meeting conversion, you'll see a 9x dial to meeting conversion. The reason is, you'll be calling on a bucket that's three times more likely to answer the phone.
Corey Frank (06:37):
Exponentially.
Donny Crawford (06:38):
I actually had a customer who called me once. They're a very important customer, a customer I just signed a deal with yesterday for something that had a fair number of commas, and some zeros, and stuff like that. I felt good about it at the end of the day. It made me think back to very early in our relationship where we'd done a little tiny deal with them. We were just a few weeks into it. I got a call from a guy who reported directly to the boss who's the son of the person whose name is on the company. He said, "You got to get up here." I said, "Why?" He said, "Well, we'll tell you when you get up here."
I jumped on a plane in San Jose and I got off in the appropriate city, and went over to the place, and was ushered into a boardroom where I got to sit for a little while and cool off. Then, a bunch of people came in, none of whom were on my team, all of whom were acting pretty serious. Finally, the big guy came in. He sat down and he said, "You lied to us." I said, "Well, so I'm curious. Which one of my many lies I chose to tell you?"
He said, "It was a big one. You told us we would get three times lift on follow-up calls." I said, "Well, from what I'm seeing, you're getting about 3.4 times." He said, "No, we're not. We pay for dials. We're getting nine times lift. Why didn't you tell us? We would've focused harder on it. The reason we called you up here is to get a detailed step-by-step instruction manual on how to make maximum use of follow-ups, creating them, and using them, and maybe retiring them." I said, "I don't have to talk to you about the third one. You never retire. You never do."
Corey Frank (08:26):
All I had to do was have you come to Scottsdale and show me that manual? That's all I had to do?
Donny Crawford (08:32):
All you had to do was allow me to fulfill the request I made to come to Scottsdale [crosstalk 00:08:40].
Corey Frank (09:20):
[crosstalk 00:09:20] I bought the technology and I knew what I was doing, Chris. I didn't need no stinking training school, come on [inaudible 00:09:29]. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I was waiting for me to get up here, but what are you going to do?
Chris Beall (09:36):
Donny couldn't shut up. You would've listened to him.
Corey Frank (09:42):
That's right. That's amazing. Three in nine x time. Obviously, if I do all the other things that we've talked about, Market Dominance Guys, such as empathy and tonality and screenplay writing, and I implement the logistical processes of Donny Crawford here, that I can obviously expect to get some pretty impressive numbers. Getting out of the Gates in Q1, it seems to me that this isn't a really complex... There's not many barriers to entry to actually start doing this. It's not like I need to do a lot of plumbing, correct?
Chris Beall (10:20):
To do Blitz and Coach, there's no plumbing, right Donny? [crosstalk 00:10:24] Do you have an Excel file where you wind up in an hour to be annoyed by Chris Beall for an hour in order to get to the point where you finally believe in his breakthrough script approach? Is that it?
Donny Crawford (10:36):
Yeah, exactly. I think you have to narrow down on what truly valuable theme are you offering this person you're reaching out to for the first time. If you break it down, and we've heard Chris talk about it a lot. There's three values. If we can touch it, if we can find those three values, economic, emotional, and strategic value that we're bringing to the marketplace, and we can just clearly identify that in simple to use words, and just a very simple phrase, and say it with belief, and believe in the value of the meeting that we're going to set up with this organization, there's no problem.
If you can figure out that thing that you're offering the marketplace that's a breakthrough, and then you have a list of people that you need to tell all about this, and you're excited to do it, and you have the belief and the sincerity in your voice, and a little bit of skill. The little bit of skill is actually not what you have to begin with. The skill comes when listening back to your own recordings of these calls because when I listen to myself, I'm like, "Oh, why did I say it that way?" The next time I deliver it, I'm not going to say it that way anymore. I'm going to practice it and listen to myself, and I'm going to hear how I'm coming across. Do I sound human?
That's what I need to actually get across. You can learn that in one blitz, absolutely. You listen to yourself and you're like, "Oh, freak. That was horrible." The next time you come to the next blitz and you're calling those same people, delivering the same value prop to them, you're going to be able to say it in so much more. We actually have organizations who are doing blitzes and by their third blitz, they've increased from about the 5% conversion rate. Some of our customers that I've worked with, they're setting meetings on first conversations around 15%. 17% we've seen sometimes, just because they truly believe in it. They have that natural way of interacting with someone that they've learned after a few blitzes. It's really pretty [inaudible 00:12:50].
Chris Beall (12:51):
By the way, I'm going to make an analogy here that both of you guys will understand, and I won't. I'm going to do it anyway. You guys have both been to church once or twice, right?
Donny Crawford (13:00):
I have, yeah.
Chris Beall (13:02):
Just checking. Think about it. When you think about believing and the key to success in sales is believing in the value of what you're offering, and what you're selling here is a meeting. You have to believe in the potential value of this meeting. Not certain value, right? There's a little faith here. Potential value of the meeting for this human being you're speaking with, whether or not you ever move forward and do business with them. When you really believe that, this whole thing becomes very, very easy. Think about the setting of church. It's a lot easier to believe when you go to church and it's full of other people, than it is when you go to church all by yourself. You go all by yourself, it's a little tricky to have it not be a building. When you go with a whole bunch of other people, it's actually a little tricky just to have it be a building.
Corey Frank (13:57):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (13:59):
That's what these blitzes do, I believe. They allow us to believe together. That belief shows up in our voice. This is the ultimate surfer's question. I'll switch from surfing to rock climbing, and show an example of a power of belief. There was a rock climbing problem that I used to work on at the end of Campbell Avenue in Tucson, Arizona off the north end. There's a little thing called Campbell Crag. There was a very obscure part of it that had a very obscure problem that very few people would attempt, because it was so ridiculous. I would go over there every single time when I showed up. As soon as that was warmed up, I'd walk over there and try this thing. I would fall off at exactly the same point. This went on for two and a half years. I went out there probably five times a week. I never got past this point.
One day, I was on my way over there, and I realized there was a line. That is, there was one guy at the bottom already. I didn't know him. Never seen him before, and he blazed up this thing. I did not learn one thing technically from him, but I did learn one thing from him. It could be climbed, and I raced up it like nothing. He watched and said, "Oh, you've done this before." I said, "Well, kind of. Just never past this point." Belief inside of yourself drives the opportunity for belief, which is the foundation for change inside of another. When we sell what we're asking for or hoping for, what sincerely want is for another person to change the way that's useful for them. Until we believe they won't believe it. It's hard to believe when you're alone.
There's a show on TV called Naked and Afraid. After the third day on Naked and Afraid, nobody believes anything, except bugs are really bad and they're getting hungry. If you remove one of the two people on that, they tap out, as they say. The other person generally just folds up after a day or so, because they don't have anybody to sustain their belief that they're going to make for those 21 days.
Corey Frank (16:14):
How did you do it then, Donny? Again, if you have this plan, this great sales leader that you had, who poked his stubby finger in your chest to say, "Listen, I'm going to get it out of you."
Donny Crawford (16:25):
Very skinny finger, by the way.
Corey Frank (16:27):
Skinny finger. Okay. Gotcha. Like a Mr. [crosstalk 00:16:30].
Donny Crawford (16:30):
Oh my goodness, he was [inaudible 00:16:32]. I mean, it was just ridiculous.
Corey Frank (16:35):
Gotcha. He believed in you when you didn't believe in you, and this process that you used, did the process give you belief, and then that compounded to the point where now it was a switch versus a dial? Let's talk a little bit about how this epiphany happened for you.
Donny Crawford (16:56):
I think that the act of sandbagging follow-ups to Thursdays, if we're returning back to that experience, sandbag... I'm saying I could have called these people on Mondays and Tuesdays and probably set meetings, but it wasn't going to be financially beneficial to me during the blitz if I set meetings on Wednesday instead of Thursday. Literally, in the truest sense, sandbag these are follow calls to Thursdays where I would get a better advantage. A better outcome. I know that putting a large bucket together of people that I was going to be incredibly comfortable talking to because I had talked to them before, the cold call feels uncomfortable. I like it. I don't mind it, just because I know exactly how to manipulate people's minds. When I get into a first conversation, I'm so good at it.
I enjoy meeting new people, and I know what I need to say and accomplish that I'm okay with it. It's way more comfortable to call someone who I've already spoken to before. My belief in the power of the follow-up when I was sandbagging [inaudible 00:18:09] into my blitzes became solidified in that moment. Not only was I able to win the little competition and get some Amazon cards or whatever, but I was also able to see the concentrated effort into a follow-up list would produce a lot of meetings. I was able to be taken off a plan after a month because I knew that I was going to produce and start overproducing even what the expectation of me was. The belief came pretty soon. It was a revelation right type of thing that if I attack and even structure my regular calls...
What the beauty of blitz is, and I think I can even relate this to flight school, is that if flight school takes place on one day a week, every single week, repeating for four weeks in a row, on the first week that I'm making calls, and I find a couple of people who are just busy on a call. They can't talk right now. They're not giving me the time of day, but I put a follow-up to next week, I can come back to my second week of calling, get a couple of those people online, and actually make something happen with a second conversation. You can actually build belief in this. Even within four weeks, you can already start seeing the production value of following up with someone. It's pretty cool.
Corey Frank (19:31):
If it goes through the snake as you load it up, then that's where the exponent occurs.
Donny Crawford (19:37):
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Corey Frank (19:40):
That's beautiful. What a great story. I'd love to have you back again and again here, Donny, sharing some other war stories of... These percentages that you're seeing, the 3x and the 9x or so in the conversation conversion rate, and the dial, that's pretty sexy stuff. I think for anybody listening who wants to boost their Q1 without an investment in the tech stack, I don't want to have to do any more email, no more SEO, SCM. I don't have to invest in any virtual trade shows. I can just give Donny a call here and he can walk through the process. Certainly, if you want to use ConnectandSell, you amplify those types of results. I just think that's a simple process that every sales leader should be adept at, especially moving into these tougher times to get prospects. With that, this has been another great, fantastic episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall and Corey Frank. Until next time.
Chris Beall (20:43):
Thanks, Corey. Hey, Donny. Thanks for being on. I know one customer today I talked to, they wanted me to send some thanks your way, too. That was a great blitz today.
Donny Crawford (20:51):
I appreciate it.
What do you do if you have a group of 25 or so folks on your sales team, and you want to really make a splash in the first quarter of the new year? Due to the on-going pandemic, we all know that connecting with customers face to face at trade shows is no longer an option. No doubt, your reps are still working from home, most of them researching their prospects and trying a little social media marketing, but all of them eventually doing the traditional dialing, dialing, dialing, and praying, praying, praying that someone will pick up the phone. How, in the name of all that’s financially holy, are your reps going to help your company dominate its market if they simply continue to use the same old methods during this brave new year we are entering?
Our two Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, along with this week’s guest, ConnectAndSell Customer Success Manager Donny Crawford, diagnose the problem of what’s keeping companies from the market domination they desire. These three cold-calling practitioners offer their insights into what works best to get the greatest number of conversations with decision makers — despite cold call outcomes like “Not me,” “Not now,” “Not interested,” “Call back later,” or even the dreaded hang-up. Wait till you hear Donny’s proven method for how to turn repeated hang-ups from a prospect into the appointment you’re after.
Chris compares the work of a salesperson to that of a brain surgeon, first cracking open a company’s “skull” by getting that first appointment, and then exploring what’s wrong inside the “brains” of a company by having a discovery conversation. Join Chris, Corey, and Donny as they guide you through that operation during this episode of Market Dominance guys, "Your Sales People are Brain Surgeons."
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Listen to Donny's previous episodes: The Power of the Anti-curse to Overcome Rejection Three Reasons Sales Reps Don’t Follow Up
About Our Guest
Donny Crawford is a Customer Success Manager for ConnectAndSell. He is responsible for providing Flight School training to sales representatives of ConnectAndSell customers in order to help them become more effective and successful when cold calling.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
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The complete transcript of this episode is below: Corey Frank (00:43):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Corey Frank, and your co-host, the Sage of sales, the prophet of profits, Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell. And today we have another guest. I think we're on a roll Chris. We've had, normally we say, I think we had a rule, no guests, but in the last couple of months or so we had Oren Klaff, had certainly Ryan Reisert. And so we're going to dig deep into the connoisseurs of our craft in your own backyard. We have Donny Crawford, the customer success manager over at ConnectAndSell. And Donny's been with ConnectAndSell for several years, I think over five years, I think you had mentioned Donny, and you're originally from the main streets of San Jose, but now you live in the rarefied air somewhere in a nondescript location in Utah, having spent we'll get out of them.
Corey Frank (01:37):
But one of the talk with Donny today, Chris, I think too, we were talking about market dominance, certainly for the last 60 plus episodes. Can't believe it's over 60 episodes now. And one of the questions we get oftentimes is, well, how do you put this actually into practice? Can we interview and talk with somebody who puts ConnectAndSell into practice? The theory of market dominance into practice and who lives it at scale? Now, Chris and I, Chris was my guide and my Sherpa here in the days of my previous company, where I was a degenerate gambler. And when I got ConnectAndSell, I just kept spending and spending and spending those dials and eight, nine hours a day. And now I understand from Donny that there's a right way to do it. And I was doing absolutely the 179 degrees away from the right way to actually properly use ConnectAndSell, if I'm going to have an internal team, that's going to be coached up here. So Donny, welcome to the Market Dominance Guys.
Donny Crawford (02:41):
Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Corey Frank (02:42):
Great. So Chris, I think we can probably throw it over to you. And when you look at a lot of the folks who are trying to be practitioners of our craft of market dominance, especially if they have their own internal and they want to hit some of these numbers, they're looking at a new year coming up and say, do I need to hire five, 10 more folks? Do I need to take my trade show dollars that are going to be used in 2021? And maybe put them into SEO. Maybe I should put them into what obviously there's a lot of red meats there. And I think that he can set Donny up here by talking a little bit about, what would I do if I have a team of 25 or so folks on the inside? Maybe 30 or 40 folks.
Corey Frank (03:31):
And I want to really make a splash in Q1 and I don't want to do the traditional digital. I don't want to just throw something at my tech stack. I can't do trade shows any longer. My field reps are really working from home and now they got to use the phone, but I still need this thing called market dominance. What are some of the things that maybe we can tee Donny up since he sees it every day to kind of guide the average person like me on how to get to the next level?
Chris Beall (04:02):
Thanks Corey. Yeah. That's, it's fascinating putting this stuff into practice ain't easy, right? Otherwise, there'd only be one episode of Market Dominance Guys, which we'd say is pretty much let me review the bidding here. Talk to everybody in your market, generate trust in seven seconds, harvest that trust over a three-year period. Turn it into meetings when you can and turn it into follow-ups when you can't, that's it. Now that you get into subtle stuff off, if it doesn't work, tweak the message.
Corey Frank (04:32):
Right.
Chris Beall (04:32):
If that doesn't work, tweak your list. I think we're done. But obviously, we're not done.
Corey Frank (04:36):
If that doesn't work call Youngblood Works and we'll do all that for you.
Chris Beall (04:39):
Yeah. That's exactly right. So the next possibility is, well, maybe it's not that you're doing it wrong, maybe you're just the wrong folks to be doing it. And what you really need is somebody to open the market for you. I compare this to brain surgery. So your salespeople are the brain surgeons, but opening somebody's skull isn't brain surgery, it's just different. And Corey's folks over at Youngblood Works are specialists at getting in there with the drill and the saw and everything and opening the patient's skull without killing them so that you, the brain surgeon can then go in and do the cutting that is going to cause them to have a new personality or a little less cancer or whatever it is that they're looking for that day. So that's great. You can do it that way. I highly recommend it.
Chris Beall (05:23):
If you don't test drive with Corey's group anyway, you're probably kind of not seeing the whole picture, but so you want that level of intimacy, I suppose, that comes from having your own people, have those conversations or say you want to hybridize and you want to use Youngblood Works folks that we would call, by the way Youngblood Works it's called finishing school for future CEOs. In case you want to know, because you can't become a CEO, unless you can have conversations with strangers and they polish up some of the best business graduates in the world at Grand Canyon University to become those CEOs by going through a program where they learn how to cold call by really doing it. Great. They get a lot of calls. They use ConnectAndSell. Life is good, but say you want to have your own folks doing it.
Chris Beall (06:08):
There's sort of two ways to go. One is that you're going to just say here, just go. And there you go, you get what you get, right? Here's what you likely to find out. Some of them are what we call weasels. They don't want to talk to people. Some are what we call faux weasels. They say they don't want to talk to people, but they really do want to talk to people. They just don't know what it would be like to talk to people because they haven't tried it. So those are like fake fur, it's like fake fur weasels, right? So those exist too. Then we have these people we call pigs, conversation pigs, and they're hungry for the next conversation, no matter what the last one tasted like, but some pigs can sing and some pigs can't sing, that is some pigs can use their voice to great effect.
Chris Beall (06:52):
As we've said, the script is the surfboard. Your voice is the surfer. Well, if the pig squeals an ugly squeal, you're not going to get many meetings and you're not going to get a lot of trust. So the question is what is really, it's better than just turning them loose. And we learned this really fast. It only took us 13 years to learn that, after doing this for a while, really folks need the help. And so Donny is our lead at ConnectAndSell on providing that help in two ways. One is structured learning through a messaging workshop and a multi-session thing we call Flight School that I'll let him describe. He's the master of delivering that. And second through structured blitzes. And interestingly, I think Donny, you have a story going way back into your past when you were a young buck sales rep and you were on plan.
Chris Beall (07:46):
And I don't know, I've never been put on plan before guys, by the way, never. Whenever anybody gets close to that with me, I get a note on my coffee cup like I got in 2001 that said, "Chris, see me, Lou." And what it meant was you're fired. Nobody ever puts my on plan. They just fire me, immediately. But Donny is such a great guy that he had a sales job once where he was put on plan. And you can tell us that story. So Donny, welcome to the show. Market dominance, you do it every day. You're a true practitioner. You help other people do it. So what's that story.
Donny Crawford (08:24):
Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. I appreciate that. You're right. I was really new to tech sales in San Jose and I was in a team of probably seven to 10 inside sales reps. We were supporting a senior sales team and setting appointments for them. And I'm telling you, the pain you feel every day coming to work and having to make 100 manual tiles is just, it wears on you, right? I mean, at that point, I was super burnt out of it. Yep. You're right, I was put on plan by a new inside sales manager, total stud, I really enjoyed working with them. And he, I think did it because he did like me, but he wanted me to succeed and needed to put a fire under my belt. So I needed to make sure I stepped it up and I'm glad he did it because there's nothing worse in my life than knowing that I'm not performing like I should. And I was pissed. I need to step it up. We also, fortunately, just recently before that had started adopting ConnectAndSell.
Donny Crawford (09:30):
So our team and our fantastic, one of our first sales reps at ConnectAndSell John Jackson sold it to our company. And Sharmeen was our customer success manager and taught us how to perform really well on the ConnectAndSell platform. And our inside sales manager instituted a weekly blitz. And this is when I really became a really big believer in the power of ConnectAndSell in the weekly blitz, there was a cash prize or gift card at the end of each of these two to three-hour blitzes that we would do as a team, every Thursday. And I learned very quickly how to manipulate winning almost every single one of these blitzes.
Chris Beall (10:11):
Really?
Donny Crawford (10:12):
And that's how I did it. And then it actually ended up making me become a massive believer in ConnectAndSell. I started sandbagging every single one of my follow-ups to be run on Thursdays during the blitz. The rest of the team would come to the table with a bunch of cold calls, the big list, the Excel sheet of numbers to call and try to get ahold of people. I put every single person that I had spoken to before and I intended to speak with again, and I called those during my blitzes.
Donny Crawford (11:20):
And lo and behold conversion happens with follow-up. And if you get ahold of someone you've spoken to before, and you just say, "Hey, what's up, we talked a week ago, we talked a month ago. We'd love to get some time with you." People are more readily open to actually set a meeting with you and-
Corey Frank (11:35):
These are the folks you talk to, maybe weren't ready to fall in the bucket of a demo. Just needed to be romanced a little bit. You would set all those follow-ups for the same time on Thursday or for the same day on Thursday.
Donny Crawford (11:49):
Every Thursday.
Corey Frank (11:50):
And then just knock them down.
Donny Crawford (11:51):
That's right. Every Thursday. And so I look at the world very simply. There's two kinds of people in the world. It's weird. You're going to classify the human race. Yes. There's two kinds of people. People I've never spoken to and people who I have spoken to, that's it, that's all that matters to me. If I've never spoken to you, I know exactly what I want to say to you, to introduce myself, give you some value and hopefully introduce you into my process of learning something valuable for your business. The second class of people are all the follow-ups, it's all the people who I already spoke to before. So I don't need to worry about the cold-calling angst. I'm just going to call you again. You know me now, all you have to do is just get to know me a little bit more and accept the fact that I want to help your business within this follow-up call and just trying to schedule that appointment.
Corey Frank (12:39):
See where it sounds like where I screwed up at scale because I do everything at scale. Even my screw-ups are at scale, is that I just used, if I get an email system, if I get outreach or if I do anything, a HubSpot or an act on, I'm going to just throw a ton of money at it and just do that one thing.
Chris Beall (12:57):
Right.
Corey Frank (12:57):
And it sounds like what I screwed up with ConnectAndSell is I just did the cold calls and I did bucketize if you will the follow-up process. So how effective is that? Ryan Reisert, I know, our colleague and he's been a guest here. He's a big advocate. Sean is a big advocate. So talk a little bit Donny from your perspective as the flight manager, you're on the flight line directing, how many companies come to these flight schools? 10 at a time? How many can it handle? 20 at a time?
Donny Crawford (13:31):
Yeah. Yeah. We can handle a lot of reps in a Flight School. So, I mean, we are basically training reps in a series of four, very closely orchestrated coach and blitz sessions with anywhere up to 20, 25, 30 people in a flight school blitz in that program, we could probably even cross a few different companies to introduce them into a blitz.
Corey Frank (13:56):
Even though there's all these different industries with all these different organizations in the Flight School, the fundamentals of cold calling and follow up and using it as a strategic blitz. Let's talk a little bit about that. Maybe some of the results that you've seen from doing this.
Donny Crawford (14:13):
Yeah, absolutely. If you are really intent on increasing the productivity of your team, especially let allowing them to learn together, we believe true social selling is not going necessarily into your social network and sending LinkedIn invites and things like that. You can do that and you should, but true social selling is getting together with a bunch of sales reps and selling together, like being social with your team about this, get your management involved, your leadership involved, get them excited about actually now hearing the conversations that the team is having, not just one at a time one-on-one focused information, but now with ConnectAndSell, you essentially are able to get a team together, listen to 50, 100 conversations in an hour from your entire team, and really start to diagnose whether some are capturing the vision of the initial conversation with someone. Creating effective followups and hearing the differences in the styles, the tones, the tempos, the belief that your team is able to actually portray during a first conversation and then diagnose whether they're being truly intentional on how they're going to follow up with prospects.
Donny Crawford (15:37):
We as sales reps, we oftentimes feel like objections are rejections. So when we get someone to hang up on us during a cold call, we're like, Oh, that guy doesn't want to hear back from me. No, in a month they're not even going to know who you are. So follow-up with them.
Corey Frank (15:49):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Donny Crawford (15:50):
Teaching sales reps, how to do that has actually, it's a lot easier than I think leadership realizes. It's just necessary to be repetitive and to be teaching very simple and executable principles. And I think that's what [crosstalk 00:16:07].
Corey Frank (16:06):
Just so I understand. So when you said you see the world with two sets of eyes, right? One people who you haven't talked to, you've spoken to, people that you have. Once I've spoken with somebody, whether they're a hangup or reject or not now, or you caught me in the car driving my daughter to softball practice, or what have you, they go into the buckets, they go into the process that needs a little bit more conversational nurturing. Is that what I under understand you to say?
Donny Crawford (16:40):
Absolutely. When you have an initial conversation with someone, you get so many bits of information about the type of person that person is when you've had a conversation with them that you actually, all of us instinctually have this gut feeling on the right time and way to approach someone else. It's instinctual. We all get it. Sometimes it's just like, I would not set up an appointment with that person in three days, if my life depended on it, because they're just going to recognize me and they're going to yell at me if I call them back in three days. So that gut feeling tells me, Hey, let me make sure that I design a strategic way to go after that individual again. If I have a call with them, "Hey, I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" And they're like, "No, I'm not interested," and they hang up on you.
Donny Crawford (17:30):
It's like a lot of sales rep would be like, that guy I don't need to talk to again. I don't want to, but my gut tells me, Oh, that's a perfect person to approach in a month. And what am I going to say to that person in a month? I'm going to say, "Hey, on December 11th," or whenever it was that I spoke with the person, right? "Hey, when I talked to you on December 11th, I think I caught you at a bad time is now a better time." And they're going to be like, "Oh yeah, I got a little time now, what was this about?" You can just go into that conversation in a nice soft way where you actually have informed them I've spoken with you before. We know each other.
Corey Frank (18:10):
That trust factor as Chris talks about that, that meter's moved a little bit closer.
Donny Crawford (18:15):
Absolutely, it has.
Corey Frank (18:16):
You're not an abject frigid stranger. You're still a little bit of stranger, but you drop something social from the conversation we had. And I think more importantly from your kind of bucket analogy here, Donny, it sounds like I know they're a picker-upper.
Donny Crawford (18:31):
Absolutely important.
Corey Frank (18:31):
I don't know what the technical name is for that, but I want to separate the picker-uppers because not everybody who has a phone who's on my Zoom or Lucia or SalesIntel list is a picker-upper.
Donny Crawford (18:42):
True.
Corey Frank (18:43):
So it's nice to know who picks up. Even if they're going to yell at me, they're still a picker-upper and they have a higher score than maybe who doesn't.
Donny Crawford (18:50):
Yeah, absolutely true. In fact, In my follow-up bucket of lists of contacts to go back after, I have notes for individuals who have hung up on me in January 15th and March 11th and May 21st. I have a list of the times they've hung up on me. And at one point during a follow-up, it's like, "Hey, so-and-so. I'm so glad I got you on the phone again here. On January 15th, you hung up on me, on March 11th you did. You're a really busy guy. Every time I get ahold of you, you just don't have time to chat. I'm curious when a better time to talk to you would be." I don't even mind letting them go again, because when you bring their mind to the fact that you're not going to give up on them, there's a certain amount of respect people start to give you. When you come across as a trusted advisor, someone who truly is invested in helping them and won't give up on them. Even if they're being really, really difficult.
Corey Frank (19:52):
Well, I'll tell you what, if we ever create a way back machine or uncle Rico perfect it, I'd bring it back to my high school days because calling the girls, trying to find a date for prom, that approach of keeping track of the hangups I could have cleaned up. So maybe you moonlight a little bit as a high school guidance counselor, right? To show guys that-
Donny Crawford (20:12):
Just like wear them down.
Corey Frank (20:13):
Of course-
Donny Crawford (20:14):
And eventually, you'll get that date.
Corey Frank (20:15):
But do kids even call each other in high school anymore? I don't know Chris. It sounds like they probably do Instagram or something. They don't even pick up the phone and the gauntlet of getting past the father to ask the daughter. I don't know if that angst exists anymore for these poor kids.
Chris Beall (20:32):
I actually think those who do use the voice, dominate their markets, just like in any other market.
Donny Crawford (20:38):
That's true.
Corey Frank (20:39):
It doesn't matter if you're dominating the father of your target or the person you're trying to get ahold to in IT.
Chris Beall (20:46):
Well, let's face it, what Donny's talking about here is predicated on something that in a way, if I were just listening to this, I'd go, well, still Donny, you're kind of crazy, right? So you're going to let somebody go and then you're going to have this task that's in Salesforce. And now you have to go look at the task when it shows up and then you're going to dial them and then they're not going to be there and you're going to get their voicemail. And then you're either going to leave a voicemail or not, and then give yourself another task. But clearly that's not what you're doing. So are you saying that ConnectAndSell has a mechanism in it that sort of does this for you? That as this the task exists, let's talk to this person in the future, starting on this date would be one I'd like to try, here's what I'm going to say to them, but you don't have to execute the task. By some magic does ConnectAndSell thing does that for you?
Donny Crawford (21:37):
Yeah. If you recall, even from Ryan's discussion, the buckets are so important. And even with his buckets, you can segment into two groups. One is a cold calling bucket or an initial conversation bucket. People who you've never spoken to before, but you've verified and it's been a good bucket. The next bucket are people who you have spoken to. And that the priority of going after that list is so highly important. And yeah, luckily in ConnectAndSell it's literally just running your open tasks until you get ahold of those people. And it's just automatically running. It's just, I'm going to be able to call on them and if they don't pick up the first time and I try to attempt them, that's fine. I'll call them tomorrow. I'll call them tomorrow two or three times until they pick up.
Donny Crawford (22:22):
But it's important for me to always go after this list because it's always going to convert higher. And luckily there's a mechanism that even if I don't get ahold of them two times, five times when trying to get them back on the phone, 10 times eventually they're going to answer the phone and I will have a little mechanism called the teleprompts. I think Sean McLaren is the designer of the teleprompts. It's like giving a speech to the person when you get them on the phone. And it's exactly what you want to say to them. And if you design that the right way, the teleprompt is honed in exactly what you want to say and the purposes of the call, it's magic. That is your magic list. That is the best bucket you could ever go after is your follow-ups.
Chris Beall (23:04):
Actually, it's not, I disagree. The best bucket you cannot ever go after are the folks that you went through a discovery process with and did not move forward with you because now you have something really special. You know a lot about them. So with regard to getting them into a process, that is the best list. The very best list is your closed lost.
Donny Crawford (23:28):
I agree.
Chris Beall (23:29):
The very best of all.
Donny Crawford (23:32):
But if you were to simplify the two buckets of people I've never spoken to, and people who I have, even those closed lost are going to start to fall into our followups.
Chris Beall (23:42):
They're all in that one, they're just the cream of the crop.
Donny Crawford (23:44):
Exactly.
Chris Beall (23:44):
The other cream of the crop that people don't call, which is in the first list is folks who are inbounds, that they haven't spoken with.
Donny Crawford (23:53):
[inaudible 00:23:53].
Chris Beall (23:53):
Because they tried them once or twice and gave up. And remember, we did an experiment once, an experiment, we did a diving catch once with a company down in Chandler, Arizona. And they told us they were 750 meetings behind per month to be able to make their business plan, which called for this going public. When I visited them, they had a football field inside of a building set up as a football field for entertainment purposes, for people to exercise. That's how much money they were spending, so sure they were going public, but at 750 meetings a month behind plan, it wasn't so great. So I asked him a question. I said, "Do you have a list of folks that came inbound, that's more than a year old that you never spoke with?" And he said, "Well, why would you want that? That's just garbage." "Well, we'll find out if it's garbage, I've got some guys over here are willing to do some calling on your behalf." We had scheduled 735 meetings for them in 11 business days. And why? Because these are people who are fundamentally interested and all they needed was a conversation.
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, we’ll dissect that sales process called the “discovery call” and diagnose the problem that is keeping sales reps from making a successful one. Chris, Corey, and Oren Klaff, managing director of Intersection Capital, share their opinions on the subject, and lament the unfortunate fact that most sales reps have no set method for conducting a discovery call that includes true discovery.
As Oren describes it, “Selling is a bit icky, and [salespeople] want to retreat quickly back to the relative calm of their normal lives. Once a salesperson hears one thing [from the prospect] that’s an indicator of interest, they want to hit the buzzer” and immediately jump to the sales pitch so they can end their own discomfort. As Oren sees it, this cut-to-the-chase method is the primary reason many discovery calls fail. Instead of truly finding out what problems the prospect or his company might have, which the product being offered might solve, reps skip right over the creation of a relationship that might help them eventually make that sale. Chris is convinced that salespeople can actually be coached on where they went wrong during a discovery call and how to do it in a way that works. In this podcast, you can listen to the two questions that Chris begins his own discovery calls with — and then find out what the heck “the dog, the meat, and the chain-link fence” have to do with this subject. Who knew that a discussion about discovery calls could be so insightful and entertaining?
If you missed the first half of this conversation, you can get it here:
https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/getting-prospects-from-fear-to-commitment/
----more----
About Our Guest Oren Klaff is managing director of Intersection Capital, which provides training, management, and advisory services in the areas of technology banking, healthcare investment banking, and asset-backed securities. Oren is also the author of Pitch Anything and Flip the Script.
Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below: Join us for this conversation in progress from the previous episode.
Chris Beall (02:17):
Which by the way, is not we've got the inside track on watching this, right? We do more of it than everybody else in the world put together. We don't create meetings. We just help other people do them. Corey's team is one of the sets of other people. We just help them get first conversations and follow-up conversations and if you're doing right, you can take the market in terms of meetings and meetings are good leading indicators of the potential of the business, as long as the message happens to correspond to the value in some way.
Chris Beall (02:43):
What we're doing is we're pushing the bottleneck down to discovery, and what we're finding is nobody can do discovery. So I'm fascinated with what you're doing because I've been looking for a long time for some blockbuster, some stick of dynamite I can stick into the discovery process that regular people can learn, like your North Dakotans, right? They can actually learn to do it and where you can analyze where they're going bad, where it's coachable, because that's the other thing we're not seeing is... We're not seeing methods that are specific enough that you can say, "Right there, you slipped into the sorcerer. Dude you were dead at that point."
Oren Klaff (03:23):
Yeah, so I think in discovery, what happens is people don't like being in discovery and then with discovery tends to rhetorical questions. Chris, would you like to make a million dollars by just going to the mailbox and collecting the mail and cash and checks?
You just rolled your eyes.
Chris Beall (03:23):
Two million. Two million.
Oren Klaff (03:44):
You just rolled your eyes. You literally just rolled your eyes. Unconscious sub-communication. You rolled your eyes. And so that's what discovery is. It is just one big rhetorical question, because you basically know the answers to the questions largely in discovery. Discovery tends not to be a real process.
Chris Beall (04:08):
Yep. I agree.
Oren Klaff (04:08):
Right? And so one idea to riff off of, and I know what we do is we give a sense that we've solved this problem a thousand times. This is boring. Instead of telling people, "We're good at it. We're the number one company. Microsoft uses us. We have 500 people. We've got the best customer service. Our CEO is friends with Elon Musk."
Instead of telling people, we find a way to show them that we solve this problem, this area all the time. We fall asleep while doing it. And then when we say, "Tell me what's going on with you," and then prompt that with sort of three, five, seven questions that cover the territory. Right? So circle the territory, then they'll fill in discovery. So we're talking about abstractly, let's just talk about copiers, right? People don't even sell copiers anymore do they, Corey? Is that a thing?
Chris Beall (05:06):
I've got one of the biggest copier sales companies in the world.
Oren Klaff (05:09):
Okay, great. I don't know anything about copier sales, but we'll abstract on it. So the new copier's cinema file, they automatically in cross-correlation, send it out, fax, email, send, produce, bind, put it on your desk, FedEx and anticipate exactly. Try to giving you an example. Microsoft had a file that had to go out for a company that they were doing something with. We sent over the file and started getting emails. Before anything else had happened, they had already been at the CEO, CFO, and delivered. And everyone's saying, "Thanks," before they even knew the file had been sent. Today, that's not even a thing. Anyway, some technical description of a master solution that that company would be dreaming of. Right? Somebody wants something copied, right? They wink at it. It goes to the copier. The copier bills the right accounts out. It gets to the desk. It's in FedEx and the account assigned and it's in DocuSign and back on the desk.
Right? And then the question, the discovery is, so what are you guys looking for? Right? What's going to make a difference over there? Cost reduction, rapid correlation, distribution, getting the DocuSign or placing copies of the facility. What's going on there with you guys? What hurts? What doesn't? Where are you? So the open-ended question is what hurts? What doesn't? Where are you? You can't just ask that without circling the territory. Right? So the territory is cost reduction. This is what I'm guessing for copiers, cost reduction, maintenance, uptime, volume, ease of use, right? So you circle that territory and you go, "What's going on with you? Where are you guys? What do you want to make happen?" And then, because you've given them context and you've given them a channel to go down, the discovery will unfold. As opposed to you asking, "Are you looking for cost reduction?" It's the same process. But when you ask that, they're very resistant in discovery to give you the real information or to give you information at all.
Chris Beall (07:06):
I think it's the biggest issue in discovery and it's huge enough, we can figure out how to teach it to folks so they can do the whole thing and resist the horrible things that they do in discovery, which is the whole rhetorical question thing is the worst.
Oren Klaff (07:22):
Right.
Chris Beall (07:22):
There's no doubt about it, right? You're taking away autonomy. You're saying, "I'm going to put you in a corner of my choosing, and then I'm going to wear you down until you finally decide that you're going to say yes to my next step." That's what people [crosstalk 00:07:35]
Oren Klaff (07:36):
I think it's giving the example of the best possible of all, or utopia and making utopia feel like a day-to-day thing that we just do here all the time.
Chris Beall (07:47):
Yeah. So there's a question I ask in discovery. So I do about three discovery calls a day in ConnectAndSell because I think CEOs in themselves...
Oren Klaff (07:54):
Oh. Wow.
Chris Beall (07:55):
...have no idea what they're doing, right? And I sell a little bit. I sell about 6 million a year. I'll probably do a little better at this year. It's kind of a spare time gig, but it's one of those things that I figure if I'm not out there, what do I know? And I ask two questions and they're kind of weird questions. I want to get your take on them. But they're strange. The first question is a very simple question. It's a little bit of a kind of a status tip up, but it's a little bit... It's subtle. I just ask "So where are you on the surface of our blue whirling planet today?" And I ask it exactly like that. And I get the most amazing responses. But all I'm really trying to do is two things, get the person to see that we're together and get them to speak with pride.
Because when people speak with pride, they start to open up and everybody's proud of where they live. So it's really simple, but it's amazing what happens. And then when they get done with that, I say, "So... And I went out to your website... I try to understand..." I always try to understand businesses. I think I'm pretty good at that actually. I'm one of that guy who reads the... I read the K-1s and all that kind of stuff. I didn't read that junk but I'm always wrong. A hundred percent of the time when I really learned about the business, I'm wrong. So tell me about this. When everything goes great in your world and your business, when it's the perfect customer, it's the perfect situation, their budget's in place, their need exactly matches your product, your customer's success, people don't mess it up, engineering doesn't do any bad about it, the whole thing works perfectly, how does your product change that person's life? And they will hold forth and they will hold forth sometimes for 15 minutes.
Oren Klaff (09:34):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (09:35):
At which point, a lot of discoveries happen and I haven't had to ask any rhetorical questions because frankly, I don't know the answer to either one of those questions. And frankly, I don't kind of care about the answer, but I do care about the psychological process, which is speaking with pride as an equal and then speaking with pride about their mission without using the stupid word mission and getting into mission statements with our company says things like, "Why are you doing this? Why are you taking the precious moments of your life and spending them doing what you're doing?" Because you must believe it's good for somebody.
Oren Klaff (10:10):
Yeah. So I give you my take on it. I was called into a pretty high volume motorcycle parts, sort of a BikeBandit, RevZilla kind of company. And so the thing about motorcycle parts that's so challenging is they're low volume, relatively compared to cars, relatively low volume, but there's so much variation in parts. So even a correct part number can be a half year so you can... BikeBandit can send out what they believe is the correct part based on the numbers and the catalog number, which is very complicated. The user gets it, goes to put it on his bike and it doesn't fit. It can be on the guy doesn't know what bike he has. Right? He believes he has a 2004 Kawasaki KR1000 and it's a 2004 Kawasaki K1000R. I don't know how the motorcycle industry works, but they make minor model derivations in the same year.
So they have three of the same model. It's just motorcycles are very intelligent specifics. Anyway, the part comes, it doesn't fit and BikeBandit hasn't been a malicious or malevolent and they don't want... But the guys call and their bike is down, right? And people are very passion [inaudible 00:11:35] and they're screaming and yelling and frustrated and threatening and all kinds of stuff is going on. And so I came in there. I'm going to say I was doing sales stuff, but on the other end, I saw this going on and I go, "Just ask the guy what kind of bike he has." Right? Just tell him, "Hey, can you tell me about your bike? It looks GSX-R600. How do you have it set up? Tell me about the bike."
Well, the problem became the other way where the guy would just exactly like you're saying, he'd want to talk about his bike for 45 minutes. And I thought about this just the other day because behind me, I have all my bikes and I was talking to a guy who was selling me, trying to get me on his membership program. And we were doing a video call and I walked by. He's like, "Oh, hey, are those your motorcycles?" Right? And I go, "Yeah. Yeah." He goes, "Tell me about them. I'm really into that." Right? And then I went on for 40 minutes, right? And then I realized... And I know the guy, he doesn't care. He doesn't care at all. But he used this and I am familiar with it. So I'm a million percent in agreement, if you can get someone to talk about their motorcycle, they're completely off of the pain they're feeling as they're describing the thing that they love. So when you could get somebody describing the thing that they love, it's for discovery or any other sales or customer service process, it just creates magic.
Corey Frank (13:01):
But that process alone, Chris, that you're using, I think, or maybe an echo that there is novelty in that process because it precisely is antithetical to how most big, dumb farm animals like me would conduct a discovery call prototypically based off of my feel, felt, found solution selling type of script. And you certainly have status as a CEO to go in, but that pattern interrupt about that novelty approach, I think, is what works with that because you're authentic, I think, in your tonality and in your pacing and your empathy that you're emoting, I think, that gets people to open up and I think the question, right? Certainly, or is can you... To Chris's earlier point, can you teach that at scale? We have this kind of top layer, which is stopping on beer cans, which is creating appointments. And then if the next bottleneck is in the discovery and you have a hundred people doing biz dev and SDR, and you got 10 people doing sales, is that also an acquired gift or traits and can that be screen played out?
Oren Klaff (15:03):
For me, the screen playing it, and to be fair, we work at a pretty high level, right? Is to just square away the seven variables. So he's buying a house, right? And you're doing discovery on what their needs are. You can paint in the variables, right? Square-foot, build quality, schools, road-noise, price range, parking.
Corey Frank (15:29):
Sexual [crosstalk 00:15:30] neighborhood.
Oren Klaff (15:30):
Amenities. And now I'm starting to run out of stuff, right? So maybe a couple of other things. And so then say within that, and these are variables. We do this all the time. Put a hundred people in a house of 3,000 to 5,000 square feet, amenities, pool, no pool, perfect for the school. What are you trying to make happen? And now you've laid out the variables. And in my experience, they'll self-discover if you give them the variables. And I think that is pretty scalable because you're creating a sandbox. And now if they're outside of the sandbox, you can push them back in. Right? And I think it's the same as Chris's question, which is in your best day, dream of dreams, best outcomes, what needs to happen here? What are you trying to make happen?
Chris Beall (16:29):
[crosstalk 00:16:29].
Oren Klaff (16:28):
Zig Ziglar, if you could wave a magic wand today and say, "Oren, go make this happen," what is it we should do?
Chris Beall (16:39):
I think I used to actually bring a magic wand by the way that I made into our big customer meetings, where we bring all the customers together and then have the elite group advise us. I would make a magic wand each year out of three plants in my yard and tie it together with the right color thread and hand it around. So you've got the magic wand. You could [crosstalk 00:17:00]
Oren Klaff (17:00):
You have it in your [crosstalk 00:17:01] as well to go with it?
Chris Beall (17:02):
I did not. That would have been special. Something that I found pretty consistently in discovery that's I think a big challenge that I see with our reps having is instead of wanting to find out, they want to get the other person to do what they want them to do. And it's a challenge. There's an implicit assumption, which is, "I want you to buy my stuff, whether you're right to buy it or not, whether it makes sense for you to buy it or not.
Right? I just went through this with one of my reps the other day. He said, "So I'm trying to apply your techniques for selling and it's working really well, but it's really, really hard because I find myself over and over wanting to jump ahead an extra step, because your process requires patience." And in my process, I operationalized the relationship at the end of discovery and stop selling entirely. It's like if you want to learn more, we do an intensive test drive. It's free. It takes you some time and a day of your people doing it. You'll either produce results or not. Sometimes people get amazing results. Usually, they just have a bunch of conversations and find out they suck, but even that can be worthwhile and it's a learning experience and I highly recommend you do it. And if you want to do it, I'll introduce you to my VP of customer success and boom, I'm gone.
I'm gone. There's no selling that's going to happen from then on ever until the very end where they've had all the experience and then the question is, "So now that you've got the experience, do you see anything here that's worth doing?" I see one thing, which is I think your people aren't very good. And I think maybe doing some small sort of engagement to get them better might be a worthwhile activity. What do you say? Give them a little... That's my one variable, right? Because that's always the variable that people always suck. Everybody sucks. So I got an easiest... It's like all the houses we're going to sell have the same problem. They all face north and everybody wants a west facing exposure. Unfortunately in this neighborhood, all the houses face north so you're not going to be able to watch the sunset. Sorry.
Oren Klaff (19:19):
Well, I think... And as we're around the corner, I have to watch the clock here, Chris and Corey. I have a seven-year-old's birthday party here in eight minutes that I also have to get to. So I think a thing you said triggered interest in me, which is salespeople don't naturally want to invest in that discovery period. And once they hear one thing that sounds good, that's a leading, an indicator of interest, then they want to hit the buzzer like in American Idol or one of those things. Right? And then end the song early and go, "I love her. Send her through. I don't have to hear the rest of this. That was amazing." Right? You're juggling nine balls and everything. They're like, "Send him through. My vote is yes." Right? Or this is the worst thing ever so they want to hit that button early.
And so one thing we try and do is give a sense both to the buyer or the prospect and ourselves is, "Hey, listen. I'm excited. We don't really need a... right? But I'm excited with working with you. Everything looks... This is the kind of company that we work with. We've done this exact same thing 15 times in the last year, but at the same time, there's some things here that make me nervous or that are confusing. Got to sort all that out in my head. Look, I'm going to invest some time with you. Bend over backwards. On one hand, we're busy. Don't care what happens, right? If it works out, it works out. If it doesn't, we're named in Rolodex, we'll meet another day. But for the meantime, I'd love to be involved with this project, if everything makes sense and there's some things to clarify, I'm going to invest some time here to figure this out."
And so if it's contextualized and it is an investment in time, then that's a different process for I'm waiting until I hear an indication of interest to bounce out to the next, right? So let's invest some time together and figure these questions out. Right? And that is more process-driven than I'm waiting to hear a hot button that I can pounce on.
Chris Beall (21:48):
Yeah. I call it the dog, the meat and the chain link fence problem. As soon as the dog smells the meat, it tries to go through the fence and it becomes unaware that the gate is 10 feet to the right and salespeople are dogs, to go back to our animals. [inaudible 00:22:06] I got to get through there.
Oren Klaff (22:08):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (22:08):
Through the damn fence, and you're going to hurt your nose. And you're not going to get the meat most of the time. But every once in a while, they get a taste and they go, "That'll work." And that reinforcement, I think, is pretty damaging. We tried to engineer a sales process at ConnectAndSell where the next step is an investment on our part and it's a serious investment. It's an investment that we actually go into business with them for a full day of production and real things happen.
Real things like Tony Safoian and over it, SADA, Google Cloud's number one reseller. He laughed on his podcast. When I was a guest, I asked him, "Didn't you make like a million dollars on our test drive?" And his VP, Billy Franz laughed and go, "We made tens of millions that day, Chris." Tens of millions. Well, it might happen. It might not. But we did put in that investment. I got on a plane. I actually took my fiance. We all went down to Austin and we did the thing and it takes seven, eight hours plus back then flying. I'm not flying anymore. Right? COVID times. But I deeply believe the next thing that makes sense and I hate calling it the next step because that's salesy talk about the next step is something I gained control over you with, bothers me a lot. But here's an investment we can make. You bring the people. You bring the lists. We'll work on a little message together or not, depending on if it makes sense.
Usually, I say no, and here's why, but sometimes that can work out. Sometimes we do it. Spooks the reps and they confuse the message that they don't know how to deliver with the product and then they say the product sucks because they suck. Now that could go wrong. So we probably won't do that, but we'll see what happens. A lot of things are likely to go wrong. People would be afraid. Some of them might go home sick. We've had a guy have what looked like a seizure once, throwing up in the garbage can, had a panic attack. I had to call an ambulance. It was all right. Medical help was available, but usually everybody survives and we learned something together.
Oren Klaff (24:06):
[crosstalk 00:24:06]
Chris Beall (24:06):
So we're willing to make that investment if you are.
Corey Frank (24:09):
A podcast that you're on with Tony and that test drive, millions of dollars. That is nothing on the podcast here that we just put in the can over the last hour. So we're going to let Oren get to Asher's birthday party here. I'll tell you what. This is like... I remember watching the Black Belt Theater as a little kid here. We got the Northern Shaolin Temple against the Southern Shaolin Temple. Right? And we're going to kind of explore this maybe in the next episode where we talk about discovery and tone and how to do that properly again a little bit more in detail.
Oren Klaff (24:43):
Hey Corey, how am I supposed to do that? How am I supposed to do that?
Corey Frank (24:47):
What would you like me to do next?
Oren Klaff (24:49):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (24:51):
What do you want me to do?
Oren Klaff (24:51):
Right. Well...
Corey Frank (24:55):
It's on your third book that's coming out. Right? [crosstalk 00:24:57]
Oren Klaff (24:58):
Right. Okay. Well...
Chris Beall (25:00):
Your book is awesome. I heard a testimonial for it today from Jared Robyn who's got this thing called the... They're doing an outbound club thing where they're doing e-sports as cold calling or cold calling as e-sports. He said, "I read Flip The Script, then I read Never Split The Difference. Then I went back and read, Flip The Script again." And he says, "Now I feel like I know something." So you're inspiring folks out there. And I think actually making a difference when the hardest thing in the world, which is to get people to sell in a way that makes sense for human beings and can be done for all products. So I think it's just simply awesome.
Oren Klaff (25:36):
Well, I think the last point... My goal is that people should not feel like selling is a thing that they have to do, but it is a bit icky and they want to retreat back to their normal life. And then they have to go all those chores or... but having to clean it, take dishes, to then wash the dishes, or it's this thing that yes, you have to do it. You've signed up for it, but you have to get out of yourself and go do it and then come back to yourself when you're done. And that is one thing I was hated feeling about selling and so it should be so integrated with who you are really, your values, what you believe, what you would do in the normal world, what makes you feel good and so that's what I want to give people is a sense like I'm working in a space that I'm myself. I'm not trying to be someone else or do things that other people do. I'm just myself and I'm doing things that make sense for me and I'm selling and that is magic.
Chris Beall (26:47):
It truly is magic. Well, I'm on your team now. So let's say if you can use me for something.
Oren Klaff (26:53):
Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Corey.
Corey Frank (26:55):
Thanks. Take care. I appreciate it. [crosstalk 00:26:57] Market Dominance Guys.
Oren Klaff (26:57):
Have a great weekend guys.
Corey Frank (27:00):
Right. Happy birthday, Asher.
Oren Klaff (27:01):
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
You’re about to make a cold call, hoping to get a commitment out of your prospect. What are you feeling? A little trepidation, perhaps? As all salespeople know, that’s the fear of rejection. But have you ever considered that your prospect is feeling some fear too? It’s true: most prospective customers feel the fear of having to talk to an invisible stranger. That’s a lousy way to start a conversation with someone you’re wanting a commitment from. So, how do you, an invisible stranger, get your prospect, an unknown person, to go quickly from fear to trust, then from trust to curiosity, and, finally, from curiosity to commitment — all in about a half of a minute? And how do you do it so the call doesn’t end with a disappointing outcome? Chris, Corey, and today’s Market Dominance Guys’ guest, Oren Klaff, managing director of Intersection Capital, tackle this challenge with a discussion about trust and how to manufacture it, especially at the speed and scale necessary for startup founders to glean success — before their new venture runs out of money.
Listen to the continuation of this passionate conversation:
https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/why-cutting-to-the-chase-in-discovery-calls-fails/
----more---- About Our Guest Oren Klaff is managing director of Intersection Capital, which provides training, management, and advisory services in the areas of technology banking, healthcare investment banking, and asset-backed securities. Oren is also the author of Pitch Anything and Flip the Script.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below: You're about to make a cold call, hoping to get a commitment out of your prospect. What are you feeling? A little trepidation, perhaps? As all salespeople know, that's the fear of rejection. But have you ever considered that your prospect is feeling some fear, too? It's true. Most prospective customers feel the fear of having to talk to an invisible stranger. That's a lousy way to start a conversation with someone you're wanting a commitment from. So, how do you, an invisible stranger, get your prospect, an unknown person, to go quickly from fear to trust, then from trust to curiosity, and finally from curiosity to commitment, all in about half of a minute? How do you do it so that the call doesn't end with a disappointing outcome?
Chris, Corey, and today's Market Dominance Guy's guest, Oren Klaff, managing director of Intersection Capital, tackle this challenge with a discussion about trust and how to manufacture it, especially at the speed and scale necessary for startup founders to glean success before their new venture runs out of money. Join us for this episode, Getting Prospects from Fear to Commitment.
Chris Beall (01:54):
So, we're going to jump right in on the recording, because we got the great Oren Klaff. Oren, I am listening to Flip the Script. It is making me a little sick actually, when you come right down to... I'm getting a little ill because I keep going, "Oh, shit. I do that. And I didn't have a name for it. I'm such a dope."
Oren Klaff (02:14):
Yeah. It's funny. I get calls from guys at Goldman Sachs, and they'll go, "Hey, listen. Listen. That's a great book. Just want to tell you it's great. But we do that. You didn't invent that." But, it doesn't say I want to tell you about the things that I invented.
Chris Beall (02:30):
Right. [crosstalk 00:02:30].
Oren Klaff (02:30):
All it says is you should do this, or well, you wrote it down good, we just didn't have time to write it down. Yeah, okay. Well, that's why you don't have a book.
Chris Beall (02:39):
I was just talking to a guy named Jared Robin, who started the thing called RevGenius, and they have a thing called the Outbound Club. So we signed up to sponsor it, and we're going to provide unlimited ConnectAndSell to the participants. And we're making an e-sport out of cold call. And your e-sports story with the sniper was what I just finished listening to. And I said, "Look, dude, what we're going to do is we'll make an e-sport out of this. We're going to give Mark Cuban a call. He's an e-sports guy. I'm going to say finally, an e-sport for business."
Oren Klaff (03:08):
That's awesome. Yeah.
Chris Beall (03:09):
It's time [crosstalk 00:03:10].
Oren Klaff (03:10):
That is awesome. Man, I wish I was smart.
Corey Frank (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the Paul Shaffer, the perpetual Ed McMahon, Andy Richter. On this couch today, as I was preparing for this to finally get two of my good friends, two of my good mentors in one virtual room at the same time, I was telling Oren earlier, about 90% of the soundbites and riffs that I've used over the last couple of years I think has come from one or both of your sources, and the tank is running low. So this is a purely selfish endeavor to fill that tank and to shamelessly steal all this information, [crosstalk 00:03:48]-
Oren Klaff (03:48):
Oh really? You need a sound bite? You need a sound bite? Here's a good one. Just tell your kids, "Hey, I brought you into this world. I can take you out." That's a good soundbite.
Chris Beall (03:55):
That is a good one.
Corey Frank (03:56):
I think that was in Pitch Anything. I've used that before. We had one of the titans of... Don't step on my lines, here. One of the titans of sales thought leadership, author of a few best-selling books. Pitch Anything, which is one of the top five sales books of all time. He is a consummate craftsman, constant alchemist of our profession, and has done more to advance the boundaries I think of sales thought leadership than almost anyone in the field today. We have the one, the only Oren Klaff to go along with the Sage of Sales here on the market dominance podcast today. Chris Beall, please welcome Oren Klaff to the program.
Oren Klaff (04:38):
Thank you. That was nice. I just wish I had more people saying nice stuff about me.
Corey Frank (04:44):
Today, it's great to have, because I think especially we were talking about Flip the Script and Pitch Anything, and Chris, you're knee-deep and Flip the Script right now. One of the things we talk about on the Market Dominance podcast, Oren, is this concept of cold calling, and how do you get and manufacture trust at scale?
Corey Frank (05:03):
One of the things that Chris and I talk about is the state of a prospect. When we first call, their natural state as this invisible stranger who's calling them, right Chris, is that fear. That's their emotional state. And so how do you get from fear to trust and then trust to curiosity, and that curiosity and turn that into commitment?
Corey Frank (05:26):
So, I think as Chris and I were talking about last week, it'd be great to ask you your thoughts of how you manufacture trust. And do you agree that it can be manufactured at scale? And how do you attack that concept that somebody who is not expecting a phone call, yet we need to penetrate that veneer, that barrier that they have in order to get some trust.
Oren Klaff (05:55):
I mean, this is going to be a very fast entry into the world of Pitch Anything and Oren Klaff. I mean, it would be good for people to scale into it.
Oren Klaff (06:05):
But basically, I mean, this presumes that trust is a valuable state, all right? This presumes that them trusting you is a valuable state for them to have. And I think that is a good, common assumption that's been in sales for over the last 50 years. The problem is that I think if you really look at trust, not academically, although you can look at it academically, not in conversation with guys like us who dabble in this, but in your own life, where have you ever manufactured trust rapidly? One function of true trust is time. Time is ball of wax choking on a splinter.
Oren Klaff (06:47):
So time. And so I think in my worldview, you're really looking at a proxy for trust. Something that stands in for trust because you don't have, in five seconds, 10 seconds, three minutes, five minutes, 11 minutes, 59 minutes. In my mind, that is not enough time to get real, defensible, robust, high quality, leverageable, you can trade on it, put it in your pipeline, this is going to happen trust.
Oren Klaff (07:17):
And give you an example. My partner Jack called me up today, and I go, "Jack, I don't like the way you sound today, because we're doing a deal, and you don't sound happy." Right? "And so you're going to make a couple million dollars here. You should be coming out of your sneakers, or whatever it is you're wearing over there where you are, and excited and we're making money. And you're making me nervous, because you're not happy about making more money than we've made all year. What is going on?"
Oren Klaff (07:43):
He goes, "No, no, I love the deal. I just don't know that the money is going to show up, the two million bucks is going to show up." I go, "Listen to me. Write this on your arm. Oren Klaff is delivering two million dollars for this deal. And go on the weekend and get yourself happy, because I can't take it, this unhappiness." And he goes, "Okay, I'll do it."
Oren Klaff (08:03):
Trust. We've been working together for 10 years. Now, he makes his next phone call, and he goes, "Mumble, mumble, mumble," right? And the guy goes, "Hey, what's going on Jack?" "I don't know if the money is going to show up." And he goes, "Don't worry. I'm going to make the money show up." And he's just going to go, "Mumble, mumble, mumble," because he doesn't trust the guy. Trust takes years to develop. You need a proxy for trust.
Oren Klaff (08:23):
And so, I'll tell you a quick story. We go to rent a... Because at some point in my career I [inaudible 00:08:31] book, and a lot of people love me, and then the podcast and everything like that. And we go to rent a studio in Los Angeles. 10,000 square feet, because Oren Klaff's big head needs a 10,000 square foot studio to be filmed in. And they have a crane that zooms down, and cameras, and audio gear. Because that's when I thought that really mattered. Maybe it does.
Oren Klaff (08:50):
So anyway, so we walk in and we're in the green room. No, we're in the lobby, we're not in the green room, and the guy, "Listen, we have another thing film..." Just when we were going to check it out to hire it, right? Because it's whatever, $10,000 for the day. It used to be real money back in the day, Corey. And so the guy goes, "You can go back and check it out, the space. There's another film crew back there. Just wanted to let you know, watch out for the line." And we go, "Well, okay, so it's Los Angeles. Fashion line, fishing line." Watch out for the line. We go, "Yeah, we'll watch out for the line, great."
Oren Klaff (09:17):
We walk back there. Whoa! It's a lion! L-I-O-N. It's a lion. All right? But don't worry. And so they're filming the lion for a vodka or a watch commercial with a half-naked woman. But she's not with the lion, right? That's not how, when you see that in a magazine... Sorry, Chris, I'm taking over your podcast, but when you see a woman with a lion, the woman is not there with the lions. The lions are dangerous. And so there's no safe lion. You guys know that, right?
Oren Klaff (09:49):
So anyway, we're talking to guys and he goes, "Shit," very softly. "You don't want to upset Major." I'm like, Well..." And so they go, "Don't worry. Major, there's an invisible fence. There's an invisible fence that keeps Major from hopping out on the crew and everything like that. But you just don't want to move fast and look like prey and everything like that. So just keep it down and don't move fast."
Oren Klaff (10:11):
And then I'm talking to one of the crew, he's like, "Yeah, the invisible fence works a hundred percent, right? Unless Major gets mad, and then he doesn't give a shit about the invisible fence," right?
Oren Klaff (10:21):
And so I feel like these rules here that are in place are this invisible fence. And you want to find things today... Because everything's changed. Let's not get into the change, Zoom, and COVID, and not meeting in person, and number of contacts, and data and machine learning, and databases, and AI, and constant ringing of phones, and look-alike audiences and all that stuff, right? So all that change.
Oren Klaff (10:46):
So I think the stuff leftover from the 1950s of trust and value proposition and a trial close, you can get your inner Major, break out of your invisible fence and try some of that stuff outside of the line. And so, then I will take you somewhere that I got by getting mad and breaking through my invisible fence, and a proxy, I think, for trust. But by the way, we're talking quite abstractly. Maybe we should just mock up a call so we can just mark what trust is. So Corey, I mean, you're great at this. What would a trust script sound like?
Corey Frank (11:23):
Well, we happen to Chris, you want to talk about the breakthrough script, since this is what the folks at ConnectAndSell use on the phone millions of times a year. So let's walk through the steps on this. And Chris, you had Chris Voss from Never Split the Difference certainly give his thoughts on this. So now we have another titan in the arena here, let's get some of Oren's impression on this.
Chris Beall (11:47):
Sure, absolutely, Oren. I love it.
Chris Beall (12:32):
By the way, Oren, I used to play with a lioness when I was a kid. My mom worked at a veterinarian's office, and they boarded this lioness every year. And my mother actually encouraged me to stick my hand out, and this animal would take my entire hand up to mid-forearm in her mouth. And I quote, she would say, "Ahhhhhh."
Oren Klaff (12:54):
Oh, that's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:59):
So I made sure to use my left hand just in case my mom was wrong. Because then at least I could have a shot at life after that [crosstalk 00:13:08] my mom.
Oren Klaff (13:08):
Oh no, I mean, those animals... My parents are from South Africa. Those animals are gentle, beautiful, kind, loving, sweet. Until they're not.
Chris Beall (13:21):
Until they're not.
Oren Klaff (13:25):
It's not like me at six o'clock, "Hey guys, I just want to let you know I'm getting irritable, okay? Everybody stay out of my way. Just let me eat dinner, read my email, get work done, and go to bed. But clear the hell out of my way." You don't get that from a lion. I mean, they're like wolves.
Oren Klaff (13:41):
Anyway, I know this is not an animal show, but wolves, they take these baby wolves, right? And they've never seen anything but a human. So they raise them in contact with humans 24 hours a day, right? They don't have contact with her, with the parent wolves. And they raise them to be socialized with humans. They're never out of contact with a human. And even then, I saw a whole, not 60 Minutes, but whatever the... Discovery Channel thing on it. Even then, a young pup Wolf with a human that he's been in contact with hundreds of times, for a hundred hours, his main contact in the living world, will just snap and attack.
Chris Beall (14:16):
Let's just play. Yeah, that's the world I grew up in.
Chris Beall (14:18):
Hey, so the context here for this particular trust thing that we've been exploring on Market Dominance is about two alternatives, two different ways of approaching large markets. So this isn't deal at a time kind of stuff at the beginning. This is how do you go from, "Huh, I think I should be selling to somebody out there of these thousands," to figuring out who you should actually be selling to, to actually doing it at pace and scale? And doing it with people you can hire. This is the Silicon Valley problem, I'll call it.
Oren Klaff (14:50):
Sure.
Chris Beall (14:51):
But it's a problem that others have. We work with a company, and I was just talking to him today, and he said, "Don't say our name." So think German air compressor company sells to factories in the U.S. and in Germany, obviously.
Chris Beall (15:06):
So the question on their mind was, well, we got these door knockers, right? Got about 72 people in 17 branches, and then knock on doors. And then this internet of things comes along and they can't knock on doors anymore. Every factory starts to put up fences, put up a security guard. Now you got to get an appointment. So how can we teach our door knockers to get an appointment?
Chris Beall (15:27):
So the amount of trust that's required is kind of like the amount of trust that's required when my mom and the lioness's owner, said, "Go ahead. Let her play with your hand," right? It's not the amount of trust that's required for me to say, spend a night in a company of that lioness when she was hungry. It's not that depth where I can put my life in her hands. Not like my buddy Jim Haggart sent me a birthday card two days ago, and [inaudible 00:15:52] said, "You've got a pretty deep relationship with this guy." I said, "Guy saves your life more than 150 times, you're going to have a deep relationship. That's literally trusting you with my life."
Oren Klaff (16:01):
Right.
Chris Beall (16:03):
But this is a little bit different. What this is, is when you look at the beginning state, which is, we don't know who to talk to. And then you look at the information paucity. We don't have enough information to tell us who to talk to, so we're going to have to have a conversation in order to get a conversation about having a conversation. So now you're in this problem, and then you're trying to figure out how do I do this at pace and scale before I run out of money. Which is the big issue with all these Silicon Valley guys and even a German air compressor company. You don't run out of money. You're the boss. You run out of keeping your job, right?
Oren Klaff (16:34):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:34):
Because you didn't get it done. So as we looked at this, and we get to look at it scientifically. We deliver a few conversations a year, about two and a half million. And so we have a fair amount of grist for our mill. I don't know what two and a half million squared is, but it's a big-ass number. So, we have statistical significance against a big number of two and a half billion squared, roughly.
Chris Beall (16:57):
And when we looked at what folks were doing, they were trying to do the old-fashioned thing of leading with value. And so they're leading with value. First, they lead with rapport, like me, then value, business value, and then they're hoping to get in a relationship that has something to do with the value.
Chris Beall (17:13):
And what we found was this guy in Denver that we had, name is Jordan [DuFour 00:17:20], was leading a different way, and it made everything better in the sales cycle. He worked for us. He was selling ConnectAndSell, using ConnectAndSell, works for us. And he was leading like this. "Oren, I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" And that two-sentence thing he was doing, which we all thought was goofier than the goofiest thing we'd ever heard. He is a goofy guy. Jordan, if you're watching this, you're kind of a goofy, dude. He has a very great skill and asking people for things. He has no hesitation, right? But he would have better results all the way through the sales process, and that was the only thing he did different.
Chris Beall (18:00):
So we asked ourselves, well, what happens when other people do it? I just blindly tried. Good science, right? Just spread it around and see what happens. And so we did that and it had the same effect over and over and over. But only if they got the tone right. "I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds tell you why I called?" And we still didn't understand the damn thing, but we spread it around.
Chris Beall (18:19):
And then this guy Noah Blumenthal comes along, and I help him get his company's named sold, a big company in Redmond, Washington. They called up one day, didn't say who they were. I figured out who they were. I was advising this company $1.1 million in one day. So now he's got a little bit of money. He's not going to go out of business. He's got a product, and not much product, interesting concept. And he's going out to sell it, and he hires a sales guy. Calls me up, says, "Oh, I hired a sales guy. I'm so proud." I said, "Great. So now I'm going to fire you as an advisor. I'm not going to advise you anymore. Because what we're going to learn is you don't know how to hire sales guys. Which we already knew. So you're spending money to find out something you already knew. That's stupid. Let's not do that. You got to sell this damn thing yourself."
Chris Beall (19:05):
He said, "Well, how do I get the meetings?" I said, "You're going to cold call the CEOs of Fortune 1000 companies."
Oren Klaff (19:10):
Sure.
Chris Beall (19:11):
He said, "I'm going to do what? I've never cold-called anybody in my life." We argue, we argue, we argue. Finally he says, "If I'm scripted, I can try it." I said, "I don't do scripting." This is back when I was ignorant of scripting. I said, "Well, so what?" And he says, "Well, I do scripting. I do it. I do it for TEDx talks for other people. I'm an expert." I said, "Okay, let's script you."
Chris Beall (19:34):
He scripts himself up five hours, three sentences later, and he comes up with these three more sentences. He tries it out. He gets three times the appointment rate we've ever seen. And he's lame-ass on the phone. Lame-ass. Noah, my forgiveness, but you will agree with me if you're watching this, that you sound like you're reading the script because you're reading the script. And he gets meetings with the chief operating officer of Dell Technologies and stuff like that.
Chris Beall (20:02):
So now we're going, "Holy moly." We got a technology that delivers 10 times more conversations. This guy has just proven you can be lame-ass and get meetings on a curiosity-based script whose main feature is this weird opening that he didn't invent, someone else invented it.
Chris Beall (20:21):
And then I asked Chris Voss about it at a dinner one night. And he says, "Oh yeah, all we got to do is we got seven seconds to get somebody to trust us in a hostage negotiation phone call. Seven seconds is all we got. It's too late otherwise. And we got to show them we see the world through their eyes and we got to prove we can solve a problem that they have right now." And I thought, "Holy shit, I'm the problem they have right now, and I know I'm competent to solve that problem."
Chris Beall (20:46):
And so that's the smidge. It's a sliver of trust. It is not bet your house, do a deal with me. It's just enough to reverse the standard equation, which is I'm going to get value into your head first. After all, I ambushed you. I'm an invisible stranger. I'm like the worst thing in the world. I showed up from across the river. You paint your face vertically, I paint mine horizontally. You put a bone in your nose, I'm the idiot who puts them in my ears. I'm horrible. And when I show up, I'm invisible, it's nighttime, and I'm here to change your demographics, right?
Chris Beall (21:20):
So that's the little tiny sliver that we're talking about. And you know what? What's weird is it's teachable in zero time to non-salespeople who can then actually get meetings that people show up at and are shocked.
Oren Klaff (21:38):
I have to hear what comes after it, but I would have to test the assumption that it's creating trust.
Chris Beall (21:44):
Yeah, we could be lying to ourselves.
Oren Klaff (21:46):
Well, yeah. I mean-
Chris Beall (21:47):
[crosstalk 00:21:47].
Oren Klaff (21:47):
I think what it's creating is novelty. And so it could be that you could get very similar results by saying, "Hey John, it's Oren. The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe."
Chris Beall (22:00):
Could be.
Oren Klaff (22:00):
So think, so that would have to be checked, because the net result, and I think you agree, you said it yourself, is now you've left yourself in a very low-status position that you've got to claw out of.
Chris Beall (22:13):
I don't think so. I don't think so.
Oren Klaff (22:14):
So if we're chasing trust, right? And so I think there's some other things that could stand in as a proxy for it. One thing I was going to go to is serendipity. So when you use serendipity, you're going to get the same impact of, "Yes, I'm willing to stay on this line, hear what's next."
Oren Klaff (22:39):
So serendipity is normally we have here at [inaudible 00:22:43], "Hey Chris, it's Oren from Intersection. Normally, my admin would be calling you on this, but I took a quick look at this, and see, I'm the managing director here, and I decided to jump on this account." Okay? A lot of words. So serendipity is normally you would have talked to somebody low status, but I took a quick look at this, and I realized you guys need a managing director to talk to you.
Oren Klaff (23:11):
So, I'm not sure that's perfect for all your situations, but that kind of serendipity is very attractive to people, and we're not sacrificing status. Saying, "I know I'm in the interruption," is now a hole that we then have to fight out of.
Chris Beall (23:27):
Actually, I haven't seen that. It depends on how it's said. If you say it right, the upfront, "I know I'm an interruption," and then you go to playful curious, "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" You're not asking permission. Somebody says may, they're screwed. If they say please they're screwed. If they ask a question of fact, then you can get to serendipity and you get to it really easily, which is the very next thing. They always say, "Go ahead," by the way. This thing, this is proven to work, and they say it with a chuckle and it's not a downward social chuckle. It's pretty much straight across. You've got to listen to some of these.
Oren Klaff (24:03):
I hear that, but it's an eye-roller, right?
Chris Beall (24:06):
Ahhh....
Oren Klaff (24:07):
It's an eye roller.
Chris Beall (24:09):
You and your emotional responses to this. This is science, man.
Oren Klaff (24:13):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (24:13):
Eye rolling or not eye-rolling, this is science. Oh, by the way, John T. McLaren rolls his eyes when he hears you read your book.
Oren Klaff (24:18):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (24:19):
I just hear it and go, "That's Oren. Sounds great."
Oren Klaff (24:21):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (24:24):
Here's the thing. We're trying to get regular people, not MDs.
Oren Klaff (24:28):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (24:28):
To be able to cause a senior person, much more senior than that, to take a meeting. And serendipity is in fact the key to the whole thing. Because the next thing they say, and I was listening to Flip the Script and you use this word many times, you used the word discover. We've discovered.
Chris Beall (24:48):
"My team and I," you say, always. You say, "My team of linguistic psychologists or cognitive psychologists or whatever they are, there's hundreds of them and they're ranked back there, have discovered blah, blah, blah," right? Which makes you innocent. We don't have to have any psychological reactance. Because you found it. You were lucky. It's serendipity. We're so happy for all of us. We want to rub shoulders with the lucky dude, right?
Oren Klaff (25:14):
Right.
Chris Beall (25:16):
And so we teach these people to raise their status immediately to being somebody to be curious about, somebody who has discovered something new, and somebody who's a little ambiguous in terms of who they are. Which you do also, you say, "My team and I," right? You never just say, "I have discovered," right?
Oren Klaff (25:34):
Right, right.
Chris Beall (25:34):
You never say that.
Oren Klaff (25:34):
Of course not. No.
Chris Beall (25:35):
We teach people to say this. To get their attention they say, "I believe." So that's the established... When I say, "I believe," you should listen, right? "Oren, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough." That completely eliminates, and then we say some really bad-ass thing that it completely eliminates, right? And the bad-ass thing is normally something economic like cost or risk or something, something emotional like frustration.
Oren Klaff (26:02):
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Beall (26:03):
And something, we call it strategic, like you're trying to go somewhere and there's a blocker, and we've discovered a way of doing something about it, but we're not going to tell you what it is, we're not going to tell you what business we're in, and no matter how often you ask, we're not going to tell you that shit. We're just not going to tell you. So for us, we say, "I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all. And the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available?"
Chris Beall (26:36):
And what is interesting and surprising is this shit works, right? And it works a funny reason. Because the journey, you can call it trust or something else, the journey is from I ambushed you and you don't like it, probably because you're afraid of me. And then I relieve the fear, so maybe it's relief, but you're willing to go a little farther. And then I go immediately to serendipity, to curiosity. And then I let the curiosity sit there and see if you're willing to make a commitment, which is not to do something but to tell me something. If you happen to have your calendar available. It's just a simple question. Most people do. It's a question of fact.
Chris Beall (27:19):
And we haven't found anything better that's teachable to regular people so you can hire them, like Corey does, and have them producing money that day, which is what our goal is. We want to hire regular people and have them producing money that day, regardless of the business.
Oren Klaff (27:40):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (27:40):
So far, eh... Now what I want to do is take my guys because they're in discovery and take my customer's guys and gals because they're in discovery and teach them to flip the script. Because I think we push the bottleneck down there now, because we can manufacture meetings [inaudible 00:27:57].
Oren Klaff (27:58):
That's where we live. We think today what has happened is leads are available. We don't have anybody who really can't produce leads, or can't get leads, or can't go with ConnectAndSell and Corey. And so conversion is... I think the larger issue today is you can get on a call, you can get on the calendar, there are efficiencies either on the pure technology funnel side, on the advertising, on the intent-based side, or the outreach, as you're discovering and using is creating efficiencies in the lead creation, right?
Oren Klaff (28:37):
So then we get the 15 minutes. And then we get the value proposition out in terms of the... And then we get to an offer. And then conversion, then, is a higher-order skill set that we need these same efficiencies in. How can you take a regular person and get them to improve on conversion on the leads? So that's the next I think goal in terms of scalability is scaling conversion once you've got lead generation or appointment generation scaled.
Every single thing that happens in sales is about learning — on both parties’ parts — and this includes presenting and discussing value metrics with prospects and with customers who are up for renewal. What works best? Adopting an attitude of rampant optimism or one of friendly skepticism? Should the value metrics you present be the same, or should they vary when you’re talking with inbound prospects versus outbound prospects? Is it most effective to emphasize only one appealing value, or is it better to trot out several beneficial metrics?
In this third Market Dominance Guys’ conversation between Chris, Corey, and Mike Genstil, co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, this trio of experts discusses how to price your company’s offering, how to handle discount requests, and what to do about a prospect’s fixed-budget limitations. Most importantly, they delve into the reality of what happens when you have successfully convinced a prospect of the value of your offering — to the extent that he is now a champion of your product or service — but when he carries your banner back to his company, he is faced with a bunch of skeptics who haven’t had the benefit of hearing your pitch. Since 98.3% of all sales decisions are fought internally, you’ll want to hear the strategy Chris, Corey, and Mike suggest for arming your prospect with the value metrics that will help him win that battle.
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About Our Guest
Mike Genstil is co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, an innovative company that enables B2B sales and marketing professionals to easily create and share visually compelling value propositions with prospects and clients.
ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:25):
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys, with your hosts, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Cory Frank of Uncommon Pro. Every single thing that happens in sales is about learning on both parties' parts, and this includes presenting and discussing value metrics with prospects and with customers who are up for renewal. What works best, adopting an attitude of rampant optimism or one of friendly skepticism? Should the value metrics you present be the same, or should they vary when you're talking with inbound prospects versus outbound prospects? Is it most effective to emphasize only one appealing value, or is it better to trot out several beneficial metrics? In this third Market Dominance Guys' conversation between Chris, Corey and Mike Gentsil, co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, this trio of experts discusses how to price your company's offering, how to handle discount requests and what to do about a prospect's fixed budget limitations.
Most importantly, they delve into the reality of what happens when you have successfully convinced a prospect of the value of your offering, to the extent that he is now a champion of your product or service. But when he carries your banner back to his company, he's faced with a bunch of skeptics who haven't had the benefit of hearing your pitch. Since 98.3% of all sales decisions are fought internally, you'll want to hear the strategy Chris, Corey and Mike suggest for arming and your prospect with the value metrics that will help him win that battle.
Chris Beall (02:19):
Every single thing that happens in sales, up to the point where somebody signs a contract, is learning on the part of both parties, every single thing. And so the only question up until the point where you sign a contract is, is it worth making the time investment to continue to learn together? And pessimism is a wonderful tool at that point because saying, "I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what this is worth," it's actually more than pessimism. It's a kind of, I'll call it, friendly skepticism. You've heard me so famous or world famous Intensive Test Drive a few times. Right, Corey?
Corey Frank (02:57):
Of course.
Chris Beall (02:58):
And what do I say? I say, "I have no idea whether having a bunch more conversations is going to make any sense in your business at all. I have no idea." And I'm being honest. I too have no idea. It could be great. It could make you seasick. I don't know. I don't know, but it's pretty low cost. It's kind of like a zero-cost option for you, a little bit of time. It sometimes produces actual business value. Every once in a while it's a lottery ticket that pays off as Tony Sephonian said on his podcast when I was a guest. We made tens of millions of dollars during our test drive. Okay?
So maybe, but you know what I'm selling? I'm selling, "I don't know." And you know what my reps have a hard time selling? I don't know. They have a hard time saying, "I don't know," because they want to be the rep that says, "It's going to be great. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be huge. You're going to have a..." It could be that, whatever, right? I tell you what, it's a lot easier to sell I don't know and stand behind it than to sell huge.
Now, at some point they sign a contract. The beauty then is it's reduced to numbers. And now you're at the point of saying, "Okay, we're not just learning anymore. We're exchanging dollars. Dollars are going to change hands here." So somebody's got to put their career on the line to go get those dollars. So think about that person. How much of their career? Very much of it. We had a situation recently involving a very, very large company. It's a multinational, and they're headquartered in Japan, and their US group told us quite clearly, "Hey, guess what? At $27,000, we don't have to go to Japan for approval. At $27,001 we do." Right? So what do you think the first deal was struck at? And that's the stuff, that's why sales is not marketing.
Marketing can't take that into account in a generic way ever, because it might not even be a concept that plays, or it might play at a really high level, but it plays a high level in terms of design of a sales process. At this point, we ask ourselves a question. How much friction do we want in the deal from approvals? If the answer is zero, make sure the person we're talking to has the authority to approve the deal without going and talking to anybody else. If it's okay to have more friction, which by the way, shows up as both delay and risk, then it's some other number.
So there's a big difference also between deals and first deals, deals and next steps. We take educational learning next steps together for quite a little while. Then we transact. But that transaction itself should be sized not just to value, which is super important, but to what fits, right? And it's never smooth. It's always a step function. Right now at United Airlines, my understanding is anything over... I believe it's $50,000 goes to the CEO. Well, is anybody here dumb enough to offer United Airlines a $50,000 plus $1 deal? Because I can assure you United's CEO's pretty busy right now.
Corey Frank (06:11):
Right. I think we're all familiar with Aaron Ross and predictable revenue. I think that one of the things that Ross talks about is similar to what you were saying about PI, personal impact, earlier, Chris. Is that Aaron talks about ask yourself when you're talking to a prospect or a soon to be client, what can you eliminate, automate, outsource or delegate? And I think from the perspective of helping that... If I say, what can I eliminate, automate, outsource or delegate? Mike, your advice certainly would be to have something that's not just quantifiable, but also visual as well to really kind of contribute to all the senses and to do the job that a CFO or a VP of sales or whomever your buyer is to do anyway. Because if I got to sell to my boss after the sales person sells it to me, I got to justify it. If you can help me do my job by thinking in those languages, eliminate automate, outsource, or delegate, I'd imagine there's just going to be a tighter affinity there, even if my price is more because you're speaking my language.
Mike Gentsil (07:25):
Yeah, again, I think this gets back to the persona discussion where there will be personas that will absolutely be excited about that value proposition because they want to focus on the stuff that is the higher value added activities, and they know what those are. And I think where this gets tricky, back to Chris's point on what marketing can conceive versus what sales does, is there's a difference between an inbound prospect and an outbound prospect. And this is really important to kind of talk through here because if I receive a lead, an inbound lead, and they're looking for something very specific, I could come to them with this value prop of eliminate, delegate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they might say, "Okay, that sounds interesting, but I'm just looking for something that does this." And that this thing could be walk like a giraffe. "And we think your website says you have a tool that walks like a giraffe. Can you show me that feature?" Well, that's what that person is trying to buy today. And this aspirational, visionary stuff around eliminating, delegating, et cetera, et cetera, might be interesting to somebody in that organization, but this person today wants this specific feature set. And so when we're coaching folks on dealing with inbound versus outbound workflows, on the inbound side, you've got to play this dance. And it's a hard, hard job to figure out what the person really is interested in learning about. They called you. They're taking their time to meet with you and address that need, but also educate them. And this gets into challenger sale a little bit where I'm teaching, tailoring, taking control of the conversation.
You have to address the things that they care about, but then educate that they also have these three other problems that cost X, Y, and Z, which may be solved by delegating and eliminating, et cetera. But we also do the thing that you want. That value prop then has elements of quantification that solve the current problem, but then solve these other problems. Whereas in an outbound workflow, somebody may not be looking for you car doors that open like this. The person is not looking for that, but you send them a video of car doors opening like that. And you give them an image and a vision so they can do things differently that they never imagined. And that delegating thing just happened to hit them at the right time. They weren't looking for that service, but you hit them with the right image and the right word and the right quantification of that.
So where it gets fun, frankly, is enabling people to experiment. They're using tools, outbound tools like Outreach and SalesLoft and Yesware, et cetera, that are giving me the ability to do this rapid experimentation. And what we're trying to insert into that for these outbound workflows is images and quantification and value that really make it come to life for that buyer that may or may not have a project that's got budget attached currently, but it can reach those aspirational, visionary things that may be latent. It's addressing that latent need that you may find budget.
Chris Beall (10:25):
This is brilliant stuff, Mike. The latent need might not be with that individual. It may be elsewhere in their organization. And what you're doing is you're actually letting them know that when that becomes the relevant part of the conversation, when they've got to go to Mary and Joe and Marissa and have that conversation, you're giving them something that they can be confident in, even if they don't care about it at all. And there's a technique for doing this in sales that salespeople, I think, would be wise to learn. And it goes something like this.
So, Mike, as far as I can tell, the only thing that you care about, the only thing at all that we do that could even move the needle in your business is we help you see how your sales reps are doing at home. That's it, because you had to send them all home and it's a nightmare, but we do these other three things that sometimes people get pretty excited by. And I just want to make sure, because I think they have no relevance to you whatsoever. And then I'll tell you the other three things, and you feel good because I've recognized that you don't care about those three things, which means... Because if you never tell somebody what you think they don't care about, they'll think that you're just smorgasbording them.
Mike Gentsil (11:45):
Right.
Chris Beall (11:46):
Like, "Oh yeah. You like the salmon," right? Therefore I'm going to assume that you also like whatever it is, right? The soft cheese. But it turns out that if I say, "Mike, I suspect the salmon is really your thing and the soft cheese just going to make you sick."
Chris Beall (12:41):
"You really hate that stuff. But it turns out we have really great soft cheese here. And am I right, that you just can't stomach that stuff, that it may as well be a pregnant person because soft cheese really doesn't work for you?" And you go, "Wow. Chris actually understands me." However, Mandy is into soft cheese, and now I have that in my pocket, which by the way, don't ever do a soft cheese. But this is where I think a lot of times, Corey, this goes back to my analogy of the dog and the meat and the chain link fence.
Salespeople make, by and large, average salespeople make this mistake repeatedly. They make the mistake of going for the win before the game is even set up. They just go for the win right now. They go for it. Like, "I got Mike, I'm going to pander to Mike, I'm going to cater to Mike." But even if Mike's the CEO, which in this case he is, Mike's got other people he's got to deal with. And say Mike's CFO happens to be a pushover when it comes to cost savings of a certain kind, not unit price, not value oriented, but just chunk size. He's a chunk size guy. He's looking at the amount of money in the bank and going, "I'm not very comfortable when we get above a $23,000 investment at a time."
And so if I said to Mike, "Mike, one of the beauties of ConnectAndSell is you can actually get in the game for 9,500 bucks and find out if it makes any sense to you." And Mike's thinking, "I don't give a damn about that, but my CFO just might care about that one. Thank you for arming me for future battles I'm going to have to fight." Because in sales 98.3% of all of the battles are being fought internally. They're not you. You're not on the other side with your champion. You're on the same side with them. They're on the other side with a whole bunch of skeptics who haven't heard what you have to say yet.
Mike Gentsil (14:42):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (14:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike Gentsil (14:43):
I do a variant of that technique, Chris, where you said these three things probably don't apply to you. I say a version of that, which is, "If you can spare five more minutes, I'd like to show you two other things. One to two times out of 10, this is the coolest thing that people have seen. I don't know that that's going to apply to you, but I'm only going to ask for five minutes." And then you show it to them and they're like... Then they go down the path. "Huh, that's really cool. Bob would be interested." And often it's actually more than one or two times out of 10. It's closer to three or four or five, but you've got to give them confidence that what they're going to see isn't going to take a lot more time and you're not going to go too far afield from what they cared about.
Chris Beall (15:19):
Yeah. The number one reason that enterprise sales fail is that your champion loves you, but doesn't have enough confidence to put their ass on the line in championing you all the way through.
Corey Frank (15:30):
And then keep that, following that statement, what generally happens as a salesperson. And we can finish up by talking about discounts, right Chris and Mike? So I would imagine my champion loves me not enough to put faith in my solution because I didn't arm him with enough data. And instead I'm going to panic as the sales rep, try to panic and pop smoke here. And I'm going to try to drop my pants and drop the discounting lever to try to give him a little bit of ammo to grease the skids seemingly when that may not be important at all.
And so can we say to that, I mean, is there an atomic weight, like we say to these ROI elements of hard cost savings and risk mitigation, et cetera, that Trump's discounting? Is there this natural force where the unseen force, the sales manager who's managing that sales rep, they're only hearing from the sales rep that, "Hey boss, if we get another 10% or 15%, I think I can get the deal from Mike." When the reality is, is they haven't been speaking the language that Mike needs to perpetuate this value prop throughout his organization.
Mike Gentsil (16:45):
Yeah. I see a couple variants of discount requests. One variant of a discount request is there simply is fixed budget. The CFO has told the head of marketing, "You've got a hundred thousand dollars to spend on marketing this quarter. You can spend that however you want." And the CMO says, "Okay, well I've already spent $75,000. I've got $25,000 left to spend. I can give you 25 or I can't do the deal." Now, theoretically, you could say, well, let's go back to the CFO together and try to get more money. That's theoretically possible. But the CMO is probably not... They can do that maybe once a year with a CFO. And they're just not going to want to play that card today for this product that they haven't used before. So that's variant number one, they've got fixed budget, and we address that a certain way.
The second is there's a competitive offer, which actually is less expensive. And so you'll say, "Hey, your offer is $40,000. I've got a competitor over here that's charging me 25. I like you guys better. But my boss, my boss's boss said 'Well, listen, money is tight. Let's spend 25K.' And if you can't match it, I'm going to go with an inferior but less expensive alternative." And that's a tough one to sell into. And that's where ROI tools... I'm going to address this one first, can be very, very effective because you can, in that case, put a picture in front of both of those folks in the management chain that says, yes, the inferior offer is 25,000, but the incremental value that you're getting for this incremental $15,000 is $2 million because we have these features that they don't, and we cannot discount. We're sorry, and it's $2 million in incremental value and that might win the deal. And that's high stakes poker. But that is a good way to preserve your price when you know that you have incremental value. If you're selling a commodity, it's a little bit trickier.
In the first case where there truly is fixed budget and you believe your buyer, and that's what they say, then what you try to do and what we coach and we do this a lot ourselves as is construct a multi-year deal, a two or a three-year deal, which escalates. Say, listen, understand you've got fixed budget right now. We both agree on the value of the solution, if it works, is $4 million. Right? Right. Great. Well, let's give you the price today, but we're in this for the value that we're delivering. So let's construct a two or a three-year deal where we're going to get to those bigger prices if those metrics are hit in the first year. We both got skin in the game. We're going to go for those metrics. And if we get them, we're going to go to the next level next year. Right?
You can get that deal done. Sometimes, in that case, you do have to meet with the CFO and walk through it, but that's a good conversation. You want to establish that. Those are the two main ones. It's less, somebody just shows up. It's like, "Ah, you quoted me 20. How about 17,000?" I don't see that as often. I'm not sure. It's not the buyer's money in the first place in a business, in an organization. It's more, if they're moving budgets around, then they've got realities there. But that's what I see. Chris, do you see a third variant or how do you address those?
Chris Beall (19:58):
Well, one way to address them... I love both those. One way to address this whole discounting question is to make it abundantly clear that you are the lowest risk party to deal with because you have the expertise and the skin in the game approach. That's going to provide a kind of guarantee that the individual that you're dealing with is willing to buy off on and to allow that, and the chunk size question, of course. I mean, there are budgetary chunk-sized questions. They just exist out there. So try to preserve your unit price while adjusting the chunk size. When you're doing this, think about this all the way back to when you think about your product. If your product doesn't have any units in it, then there's no unit price. And if there's no unit price, well, you got a problem, right?
So if somebody says, "Oh, I only got 25,000," well, it turns out that really we get the best results when we only work with a subset of the users and then I'll come all the way back to adoption. Your VCs might hate you for only taking on 100 users instead of 1,000, but there are 100 best users by definition. This is just-
Mike Gentsil (21:11):
That's right.
Chris Beall (21:13):
Anybody who doesn't believe that, go to the calculus, right? Every function's got a minimum. So there are the 100 best users out there. So let's just say, look, we get the best results this way. And we actually prefer to start smaller because that way we can focus on getting the best business results, measuring them carefully and making sure, before we go to higher levels of adoption, that we have solid results, solid processes. You're doing your part, we're doing our part. What do you say we fit this deal inside that? Now your unit price stays right where it was. Your chunk size is the right chunk size. It's very rare that somebody has a unit price budget. It's very common that they have a chunk size budget. So work with it.
Mike Gentsil (21:55):
Yeah, that's smart.
Corey Frank (21:57):
Wow, this is just a great step. Chris, I don't know. I think you probably agree with me that in the Beatles world, right, as an analogy, I think Mike Gentsil is the Brian Epstein of the Market Dominance Guys here. So he's the force behind the force. And, Mike, we'd love you on anytime that you're free. This is great. You clearly speak our language. And, man, I think we have a whole couple of new chapters in the Market Dominance Bible here that Mike just wrote in the two sessions we had together. So we appreciate that very much, Mike.
Mike Gentsil (22:29):
Thank you, Corey. Really enjoyed it. Thanks, Chris.
Chris Beall (22:32):
Thanks, Mike. This was tremendous. And thanks, Corey, as always, you seem to have come back from the brink of death, and you're back with us. You know what we say about all dead companies, they're equally uninteresting, but you know-
Corey Frank (22:43):
That's right.
Chris Beall (22:44):
... not all dead people are like that, but we still love you a lot.
Corey Frank (22:48):
Well, as I think the quote goes: I wasn't dead. I was just in Texas.
As a follow-up to the recent Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, “Vanity, Vanity, Thy Name Is Value Metrics,” Chris and Corey continue here with part two of their conversation with Mike Genstil, co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI. Mike and Chris share their insights into value metrics and how to construct and present statements about value propositions and returns on investment. These market dominance experts explain that it’s all dependent upon the job title of the customer rep being addressed, as well as where in the sales cycle you are with that company. Is risk mitigation the most appropriate metric? Is it perhaps better to talk about productivity gains? Or would a statement regarding cost savings be more enticing as a promised ROI? And, as Corey asks, whose job is it to craft the appropriate statement for the value prop or ROI?
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Mike cautions listeners about the importance of being careful in the representation of value when talking to a prospect or customer, because it’s necessary that the stated ROI be credible.
He then gives examples of formulas for determining what you should charge a customer by relating it to the amount that company will gain by using your product or service. As with all Market Dominance Guys’ podcasts, you’ll find this sales-related topic both enlightening and helpful in your quest to dominate YOUR market!
About Our Guest Mike Genstil is co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, an innovative company that enables B2B sales and marketing professionals to easily create and share visually compelling value propositions with prospects and clients.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: Announcer (00:25):
You are listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro. As a follow-up to the recent Market Dominance Guys episode, vanity vanity, thy name is value metrics, Chris and Corey continue here with part two of their conversation with Mike Genstil, co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI. Mike and Chris share their insights in the value metrics and how to construct and present statements about value propositions and returns on investment. These Market Dominance experts explain that it's all dependent upon the job title of the customer rep being addressed, as well as where in the sales cycle you are with that company.
Is risk mitigation the most appropriate metric? Is it perhaps better to talk about productivity gains or would a statement regarding cost savings be more enticing as a promise to ROI? And as Corey asks, whose job is it to craft the appropriate statement for the value prop or ROI? Mike cautions listeners about the importance of being careful in the representation of value when talking to a prospect or customer, because it's necessary that the stated ROI be credible. He then gives examples of formulas for determining what you should charge a customer by relating it to the amount that company will gain by using your product or service. As with all Market Dominance Guys podcast, you'll find this sales related topic both enlightening and helpful in your quest to dominate your market.
Corey Frank (02:07):
Welcome to a part two edition of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the sage of sales, Chris Beall. I am not on camera today to save precious bandwidth because I would not want to have any iota of bytes or exabytes or terabytes wasted on looking at me when we have Mike and Chris, these two experts here where I'm going to try to get out of the way as much as possible. Last time, I think in part one of our exercise with Mike Genstil hear from VisualizeROI, we were talking a little about a lot of vanity metrics that big dumb sales farm animals like me use to try to justify or dazzle their board with how we're doing in sales. Certainly was a important episode, you should go back to the listen to in part one, but part two I thought, when we kick it off today gentlemen, let's talk a little bit about how that spark happens between sales reps and actually the prospect when we are in the language, we are right in the heat of battle so to speak of trying to communicate ROI during the sales process.
Oftentimes we'll talk about features and benefits and things of that nature of course, but how do we in a VisualizeROI world, they talk about justifiably earning Mike, the available budget and this value-based messaging that you talked about so eloquently in part one, how do you communicate that? How do you go beyond just a traditional budget type of conversation to paint a picture of how or why the ROI occurs? I think that would be a good place to start as we enter into the next episode of the Markets Dominance Guys here. Good to have you again Mike.
Mike Genstil (03:50):
Thanks Corey. We tend to help organizations who are trying to engage buyers around value. Think about four buckets of value, hard cost savings, revenue acceleration, productivity gains and risk mitigation and every buyer that you engage with, if they're truly interested in your service or solution, they will have to create a business case internally that will touch on at least one of those points and often it's several. The favorite one for buyers and sellers is hard cost savings, meaning you're spending X with this certain vendor today and you're spending Y with another vendor. If you shift that spend to us, you'll actually be able to save costs and that's dollars back in your pocket and the CFO will appreciate that argument as well as the advocate that you're selling to. You go down the line, most B2B organizations are selling something that gets productivity gains and productivity gains are a little bit tricky to quantify the value of, because you get a lot of hours back for people avoiding certain activities. What are those hours worth and it's hard to quantify that sometimes depending on what those people do.
For salespeople, if you get hours back from routine tasks, well, theoretically that's more time spent selling, which allows them to actually achieve their quotas more effectively. You could say those productivity gains equate to incremental revenue booked and that's going to appeal to every VP of sales, as well as CFO and CEO in that buyer decision-making unit. The next one is risk mitigation and so you've got every organization is making certain amount of mistakes, both in their internal accounting, internal processes as well as the product and services they offer to their customers. Everybody's making mistakes. Some of those mistakes are easily measured. A good example of it is an assembly line. People typically know the error rate on their assembly line. If I produce a thousand widgets, typically a half percent have something wrong with them, if I could reduce that, that would be a good thing.
To your point though Corey on visualization, there's two sides of visualization here. The first is the images themselves that the marketers are already doing a good job creating. Most B2B organizations that we engage with have marketing teams that are very effective at creating sales materials in the form of PowerPoint presentations or Google slides or other imagery that has very powerful images that describe value proposition, reduce carbon emissions and a picture of a cloud, reduce this, improve that, and those images are very powerful. What we do is we equip sales reps to overlay numbers on top of those powerful images that the sales reps are already using in their discussions.
That's part A, overlaying numbers and data on top of good images and making that data dynamic and then part B is charts and graphs. Depending on who you're selling to, some people appreciate images with data and others appreciate bar charts or pie charts, lets say you were spending X, that's coming down to Y. The best visuals that we equip our customers with are a combination of beautiful images with numbers as well as bar charts and pie charts and line charts, showing cost savings and revenue growth over time. That's kind of in a nutshell, how we think about it.
Corey Frank (07:04):
When I look at our cost savings or risk mitigation or productivity gains or into the other, is there one that you found Chris, maybe even from your world too in the ConnectAndSell world, that when I'm speaking the language of ROI that is more alluring or sexy or powerful than another, for instance is hard cost savings may appeal that this person, this persona, productivity may... are they all really kind of different heads at the same point?
Chris Beall (07:31):
I can speak to this from long experience, not just in ConnectAndSell but other companies. I've done consistently selling productivity gains that free up people's time. That sounds great until somebody thinks it through a little bit and then the question is, well, are they going to fire people in order to also save money? Probably not, and what do they thinks going to happen with that time? I remember the general counsel of General Electric once took me aside and said, when we were selling some productivity kind of oriented stuff and he said, Chris if it doesn't save a dollar that the CFO can see as a dollar, don't talk about it, we call that water cooler time and we value it at exactly zero.
That was fortune one at that point and very sophisticated viewpoint, somehow I managed to listen to them well enough to change the message around from the sole savior engineers two and a half hours per part that they find to this will save you $50,000 of vendor certification each time they find a part and 11 divisions of General Electric bought our product and we became important in the electronic catalog and space for engineering. Getting that right and getting over where that hard dollar cost savings was something that Mark [inaudible 00:08:49] needed. The chief counsel of all of General Electric could stand behind as he spoke with the CFO, that was really important. Now later in our relationship, he pounded his fist on the table and said, Chris, you are destroying the General Electric company, we had a different conversation but that was the conversation we had to get in and then there was the later one.
The other thing is people respond differently at different points in the sales cycle to different things. So very early in the sales cycle, there was an attraction to upside that is not followed through later and there is a distress, an emotional distress with risk that when risk is emphasized early, it's a wonderful thing. That is, if you say we completely eliminate, I believe we've discovered a break trip through that completely eliminates. The fundamental risk of X, whatever X is and then you'd say something that's emotional and the frustration with Y allowing you to do Z. That's pretty good. If you're trying to get a meeting, that combination works pretty well because completely eliminating fundamental risk, this is surprising after all it wouldn't still be there and be fundamental if that were easy, so that's a bold claim and wiping out an emotional stressor, which is always frustration by the way of business, always, always, always frustration.
Everybody's frustrated all the time in business because they're trying to do really well. You know what Deming taught us that's right. People have pride of work from show and they feel like they never quite have the time, the resources or the support to do their job as well as they hold themselves accountable for. Then they're trying to go somewhere and that's the upside. But if it's the upside of like and it makes you more dollars, that's probably not as appealing as it will let you accomplish the thing that's been sitting on your plate for three years, you've been unable to move toward because you're so busy doing other crap.
Mike Genstil (10:44):
Yeah. I think Chris, you talked about the persona and the different stages in the sales cycle and I think the way you articulated it was correct, where the CFO, particularly in conservative companies like GE are going to need that hard dollar savings, but to get to that CFO, you needed to get through some middle management layer. That middle management layer may or may not care about the hard cost savings because it doesn't affect their job and so as you're appealing to that person, you need to say, what is the job you're trying to do? You're trying to get more widgets through the assembly line more quickly, more effectively with fewer errors, at reasonable prices. You might talk about higher throughput and a lower error rate, those metrics that person might get as bonus based on those two things, throughput and error rate, so yes, the whizzbang thing that you're selling, today you're here, going forward you're here on your error rate reduction, et cetera. But then when you get to the CFO you flip the thing and you compute the actual hard cost savings per your metrics, it's vendor certification.
To kind of tie it together, you kind of build a matrix of persona on one axis and then the actual KPI's on the other and your business value story needs to be able to show the right metric to the right persona at the right time through the sales process. It's pretty elegant and sophisticated and you kind of need software to do that which is where we come in, but that's kind of the Holy grail because you have to consider the entire decision making unit and what each person cares about and putting the right numbers in front of right folks is tricky, but I would agree with Chris's point on hard cost savings is the number one thing.
Chris Beall (12:22):
We're certainly number one at the end, right?
Mike Genstil (12:25):
At the end?
Chris Beall (12:26):
But I love this. This is so important because often in sales, we get locked in to what we consider to be a value proposition. I remember walking into Sean McLaren's office when I first joined ConnectAndSell. I've been with the company for maybe a day and he was officing out of some company where he had made an investment because Sean's too smart to rent his own office so he was getting some sort of trade out office space. I walked into his office and I just wanted to sit with the guy. He's a genius and why not? I could learn a thing or two plus actually I'd been under the impression for years that he was dead, so watching that dead guy work is so cool. So I go and sit down and he's got a whiteboard and it's got two letters on it.
This whole whiteboard in big letters, they're like three feet high, PI, and then I said, what's that? He says personal impact. If you don't know what the personal impact of what you're offering is to the person you're speaking with right now, you will never make consistent progress through the sales process. So that's what this is about, is ROI is kind of abstract, PI is like PI personal impact is right now, but they're related to each other. They're related in a somewhat subtle way. The software that Mike's company provides lets you actually make a PI statement, personal impact statement that makes sense out of what would otherwise be an ROI generalization.
Corey Frank (13:57):
I love that. I love that. Contrary to rumors he's not dead, right?
Chris Beall (14:04):
Not very, not very at all. Every time I talked to him, he's very lively.
Corey Frank (14:08):
That's good a little bit. So to the point, Chris and Mike, who creates this as it come from, we talked I think a few episodes ago, Chris, about sales and marketing alignment, right? I think we've had 50 or 60 episodes in sales and marketing alignment, always seems to creep in there once in a while, but from your perspective on these value statements, these ROI, these PI statements, do they come from the messaging from the sales side best practices, should they come from marketing and this is what they use to empower all of their messaging. How does something like that spark or create, cause this is a philosophy but now I can point my finger and say, great, who's going to create it, marketing has all the content. Hey, sales guys, we don't do that kind of thing or do we? Where does it originate from?
Mike Genstil (15:00):
Yeah. It ends up being a bit of a hybrid responsibility Corey, is what we're seeing. If you think about the evolution of a new company, imagine a company being started or founded by a founder, that founder is going to go out and acquire his first customers and his first investors and he's going to create a pitch or she's going to create a pitch, which is visionary. It's going to describe problem areas that customers tend to have and how those problems can be solved with this revolutionary new thing. It'll have imagery that talk about these problems sizes and then benefits. It may have a couple of testimonials of people that have tried it and had success, et cetera.
On day one, you've got a visionary founder and then that person brings on some marketing folks that are really building out the story and the message. So you've got this nice compelling visionary message, which is largely qualitative, some nice images and problem statements and then a couple of testimonials. Over time then as you hire and scale a sales organization, you're getting past those early visionary customers to the early majority kind of coming back to crossing the chasm and then the late majority and the crossing the chasm was right, we should still talk about it more these days, I believe. Those buyers aren't as effective at getting budget for a very visionary concept, they need proof points. They need to see these ROI stories and then the CFO will need to be basically agree with those. What we're seeing is the people that are building that quantified message inside of organizations to supplement the visionary value props that were designed during the founding days and then in those several quarters after that tend to come either from product management. These folks tend to be highly analytical and quantitative, so sometimes they'll build the quantification.
Sometimes it's product marketing, the product marketing folks tend to think about segments of customers and the value of segments per customers and then there's also, some of our customers in emerging function which is called the value analyst or the business value analyst. We're seeing more and more companies that have these folks on staff used to be companies like SAP and Oracle, had small armies of business value analysts and now alumni of those organizations are heads of value at hundreds and nearly thousands of companies.
These people have a day job of building and refining value quantification for typically they get started on the biggest deals that the company is selling into and then over time they're scaling themselves by building self-service tools, sometimes through our platform, to make it accessible for the average rep and the average deal. But at scale, what we're seeing is a hybrid approach where the marketers are still generating beautiful slides with beautiful images and as the company releases new products with different variants of the value proposition, the value prop, there'll be different approaches of quantifying and describing the value prop, then overlaid with actual hard calculations from either again the product manager, the product marketer or the business value analyst.
Chris Beall (18:28):
That's what we're seeing. As we go through the sales process, it's interesting how these capabilities and the artifacts that come out of them are best used. Some sales job is actually to do two things. One is an assessment. Should we, does it make sense for us to move to the next step or not, to do more together? Should the relationship evolve or should the relationship stop evolving? That's the number one job of a salesperson. When they're testing that with somebody, these kinds of tools are incredibly valuable because if you're the salesperson and you reach into your bag of, I'll call them ROI tools or valued tools, and you pull out one that you think makes a lot of sense, you populate it with the relevant data that applies to the situation for this particular person that you're speaking with and their situation and they yearn well, you just learned something.
What you might've learned is, huh, we really don't have anything here for them or you might've learned, huh? I didn't get it. I need to go back into the tools and find the other one that they care about. I have a classic example, I mean it is true of almost every VP of sales. Corey, you've run sales organization, so you've heard me say this to you when you were my customer, Corey you got 102 people. I think 23 it'd be a better number. What do you think? You've heard that from me, right? What did you say? Chris ain't no way, right?
Corey Frank (20:02):
All of the limited self-worth I have as a man, Chris is all coalesced into the number of salespeople that I have under my payroll. I think I said something along that lines maybe not that eloquent, but that's basically what it meant.
Chris Beall (20:16):
Yeah. I think NFW came to mind, therefore this, Hey, here's this efficiency that will let you save money through reduced head count, I could show it to you all day long and it wasn't going to get anywhere. So I either had to find something else or we had to disengage one or the other, so that's sort of thing number one. Thing number two is, but if we go to the next step, new people get involved, new things happen, expectations are set and maybe expectations need to be met. So one thing that's different between marketing and sales involved in all this is, marketing paints a picture that can be arbitrarily large in value along the four dimensions that Mike mentioned.
Sales must constrain that picture to being just large enough to take the next step and do larger. It's really important for a successful sales cycle that you don't overstate value early, regardless of who you're talking to. So one of the jobs of sales is kind of odd, it's to not to attenuate an artificial way, but to be careful in their representation of value, whether it's risk reduction, whether it's cost savings, whatever. So that it's just enough to move to the next step and not so much that they get and this is a really good phrase for those of you who've ever done it physically out over their skits.
Mike Genstil (21:36):
Yeah. The way we address that is we always coach sales reps to say the first thing you need to find out before you do anything else is roughly what is the revenue of your customer? Because if you've got a customer you're selling into this doing $20 million in revenue, you can't give them $10 million in value next year, unless you're going to create a rocket ship, you're going to put the whole team in a rocket ship and send them to the moon and back and that's worth $10 million in value to them. You'd be lucky for a $20 million company, if you add $1 million in value, which is 5%. It would be phenomenal that there're another one to $2 million on top of that. Now, if you sell something like ConnectAndSell, which dramatically improves their sales results, well maybe you'd be getting on top of the 20 million and extra one, two $3 million in value.
But you should not say 10 million because it's not going to be credible. Now you might get those results, that's fine. We find that sometimes these models don't have these [inaudible 00:22:32] in them, as Chris said, you can't overstate but you also can't understate, so for that same $20 million company, to tell them they're going to get $20,000 in value, the CFO's probably not going to care at that point and your solution better be better cost no more than $5,000, if you're going to get $20,000 in value, maybe hopefully a little less than that. But the point would be, Hey, try to get that $20 million revenue company, a couple of hundred thousand dollars in value to a million bucks and charge them 20,000 bucks for that. That's a good exchange of value.
I'm going to give you a 20K, you're going to get a 100 to 200 to 400K back. That's worth a couple of percent on top of your $20 million in revenue. That's a story that you should be trying to tell and that's what we train against, starting with what's your price, what's the value and what does that relate to their overall top line and profit associated with that? There's variants of that, but that's kind of how to think about it.
Chris Beall (23:26):
Wow Mike, do you actually train this stuff? Cause I don't see anybody being trained like this. I mean, it's like talk about one size fits all. Every rep wants to say, you're going to get the sun, the moon, the stars, three galaxies and the unicorn and that's just the greatest thing in the world and what you're saying is you actually train folks. That's how we train reps too. We train them in a five sentence way of having an okay conversation, right? First conversation. We do it because our software quote unquote works, but it doesn't deliver as much value unless the conversation is good. So you're saying your software quote unquote works, but it doesn't do as much good unless they have a conversation that makes sense for that kind of customer. Is that what you're saying?
Mike Genstil (24:10):
Yeah. Every B2B rep is in the business of getting meetings and ultimately quoting prices and trying to get contracts on. When we do the training, we say, well, what's your average deal size? I'll say my average deal size is $50,000. Great. So then I'll ask the question to the room. Okay, what do you think your customer needs to get in terms of value, for that $50,000 to make sense? They'll say, I don't know, a $100,000. Well maybe, what would be better? $500,000? Yeah. 500 to a million bucks. 10 X to 20 X is a good story to tell, it's credible, it's reasonable. It's a good story to take to the CFO so it's okay, let's agree it's a million dollars in value for your $50,000 investor. How are you going to convince the customer there's a million dollars in value?
Do you believe it? How would you prove it? Let's say you've got two minutes in an elevator going back in the old days, when you rode elevators with the CEO of the company, how would you tell that CEO you're going to get them a million dollars in value. You better know to be able to talk to that pretty quickly as a function of the things that he does, what he's selling, how much revenue he's making and you go there and when we frame it that way, Chris as part of the training, it actually resonates because they're quoting prices and they've never really stopped to think about, huh, what should the value be? And it's simple math. Once you kind of get them thinking that way, it's easier to get the adoption and change the culture around value selling.
Corey Frank (25:30):
Yeah. I think we are wired. I think our good friend Oren Klaff from Pitch Anything, Chris where he talks or runs a big advocate of leveraging pessimism in your sales process, because I think Chris says you were alluding to, I mean, what type of professionals in the world are the most optimistic you've got entrepreneurs, especially when they're trying to present to an investor, their product and you've got salespeople. I mean, their job by definition is to seed optimism. They're programmed to promote this vision of the future while your biggest problems are solved, as he had said and you can live in the moon and the sun, as you're saying so. Given the nature, though what you're saying, Mike and Chris, I mean it's counter-intuitive because given the nature of our profession, salespeople like me, we're not programmed to be pessimistic. We're programmed to be optimistic and push you in that direction too.
I think this optimism that bubbles up from our emotional core, I think it sows those seeds of doubt, doesn't it Mike. Where it actually creates stress for the buyer you could say, because it's unbelievable. My goals and Chris, you talk a lot about this in the messaging about after the breakthrough, we do X that does Y and Z and some of those are emotional pieces of the messaging and some of them are logical, but so that pessimism does wreak. You need that pessimism. I think what you're saying to get a little bit more credibility. They shouldn't fight that as a salesperson. It sounds like giving them that autonomy to question. Yeah. That's reasonable. The goal of the value, the ROI that you're saying, I can buy into that and that gives me a little bit more autonomy and trust to move the conversation along.
Change is the obvious hallmark of the current pandemic. And, as most of us know, change rewards innovation and punishes those who stand pat on tradition. This is especially true in the winner-takes-all world of sales. Most people believe that true innovation springs from the use of technology. But is innovation mostly about taking a technological product or service and then marketing and promoting it to the stage called “user adoption” — or even to the more desirable stage that we’ll call “user embrace”? Or should innovation be more cultural than technical?
Join Chris as he makes the case for pursuing innovation during the pandemic and talks about the difference between strategy and tactics during this pursuit. Chris is joined by his friend, Gerhard Gschwandtner, founder and CEO of Selling Power, Inc., as they discuss the role of empathy in sales and its importance as a leadership tool.
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About Our Guest Gerhard Gschwandtner is founder and CEO of Selling Power, Inc., a multi-channel media company that produces Selling Power magazine, the leading periodical for sales managers and sales VPs since 1981, and conducts Sales 3.0 conferences, which provide sales leaders with strategic insight and best practices for improving sales performance and revenue growth.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:32):
Change is the obvious hallmark of the current pandemic. And as most of us know, change rewards innovation and punishes those who stand Pat on tradition. This is especially true in the winner takes all world of sales. Most people believe that true innovation Springs from the use of technology, but is innovation, mostly about taking a technological product or service and then marketing and promoting it to the stage called User Adoption? Or even to the more desirable stage that we'll call User Embrace. Or, should innovation be more culture than technical. Join Chris, as he makes the case for pursuing innovation during the pandemic and talks about the difference between strategy and tactics during this pursuit. Chris is joined by his friend, Gerhard Gschwandtner founder and CEO of Selling Power Inc. As they discuss the role of empathy in sales and its importance as a leadership tool. Join us for this episode of the market dominance guys. Can innovation and a pandemic co-exist?
Chris Beall (01:43):
I'd like to talk about something that frankly I stole from my fiance, Helen Vannucci, she had spent a lot of time researching what turns out, I think to be the big question in the world of sales, which is sales culture. And she was looking at it from a digital transformation kind of viewpoint and discovered that culture was really the issue that needed to be addressed around digital transformation, much more than technology. I wanted to know is it possible for innovation, doing new things and valuable things in a pandemic to coexist? Just to remind us all, sales is a winner take all business. That's kind of all there is to it. Sales is peculiar in that regard. So marketing's not like that for instance, it's not winner take all. In fact, it's really hard to tell in marketing who the winner is.
Every once in a while, something happens that's so spectacular in terms of an advertising campaign, as Gerhard referred to the 66 million ads that... Facebook ads that the Trump campaign used in 2016. I'd say that was a winner take all situation, but it didn't show purely in the marketing. You have to go tear it apart there. Certainly in research and development, product development, it's not winner take all at all. Products come and products go, there were a brilliant products that hit product market fit at least for a while and in a marvelous way. But in sales deal by deal by deal, there's only one winner.
And I think that puts a huge amount of pressure on innovation because there's only two situations you're in. You're in a situation where you just won the last deal, in which case your inclination will be to continue to do whatever you did before. Whatever you think got you there, might not be what got you there, but it's what you think got you there. And that works against innovation. How can you innovate against success? And yet in the case of failure, we tend to either cast about, try one thing, try another thing, another thing, another thing which also gets in the way of innovation or we kind of hunker down.
And I think in the pandemic, there was a lot of hunkering down. There was a lot of Fox holing. Let's go and get in the foxhole, we seem not to be winning. So let's just kind of banker fires and do nothing. And the problem is that change when it happens, demands innovation. That is, if you don't innovate, you're actually going backwards in a changing world. And here's what the pandemic looks like in a changing world. This is a 20 cows that didn't get out of the way of a high-speed train. A high speed train is a pretty good metaphor for what just hit us all in March and April of this year. And I think people are finding out that the high speed train is continuing to be a high speed train. It hasn't really slowed down. And being a cow who didn't get out of the way of that train for any of you who know the weird Al Yankovic song Albuquerque, he refers to us.
I think his mother is looking at him like a cow looks at an oncoming train for a certain part of the song. Well, you don't want to be the cow looking at the oncoming train. You've got to innovate, but in which direction to get off the tracks, to the left? To the right? Go into the bushes? Do you jump up in the air? What do you actually do? One thing, you know, you cannot do and you must not do is stand Pat. But what do you do? I mean, what's a positive way of looking at innovation. There's a tough picture to look up by the way I was a vegan for quite a while. And I used to raise cows too. So what can I say? This didn't work out well for these cows. You don't want to be one of these cows.
You want to move in some direction that makes sense. And you certainly don't want to stand pat. If you stand Pat, and you just kind of stare out there into the world and kind of are just made of whatever it is that you get from yourself, so to speak, but you don't want to stand Pat. You want to move. And the question is, how can you move in a direction that makes sense? Or that might make sense? I mean here's one of the other problems with innovation. You can only move in the direction of your hypothesis. You can't know what's going to work in advance. That's simply impossible. If somebody comes and says, I know this is going to work, they're either diluted or lying in our business, actually Connect And Sell, we've enshrined this principle into a thing we call the Intensive Test Drive, which is, "Hey, we don't know what's going to happen.
We know you're going to talk to a lot of people. We have no idea if that's good, bad, or indifferent, for all we know you're going to go fast and wrap our Ferrari around a tree and it's not going to be wonderful. Why don't we actually safely do the experiment, production for a full day?" So that's an idea that we had around innovation, but I think every innovation has to think what's a step I can take in the direction of learning more, a step of action not of contemplation, in the direction of learning more safely in the environment in which I find myself. When folks talk about innovation and sales, they generally talk tech stack. As an old software developer, you know, the idea of a stack actually is sort of a real idea. It's... The fact is there's stuff down in the stack, closer to the operating system or in the operating system.
There's apps up at the top, and... By the way, human beings kind of live way at the top of the stack as users. And there's, all sorts of real ideas of stack. We kind of use the term a little bit more, I would say, loosely, not in the world of sales. Could you pick the one that's going to make the difference. That's safe to go down the road with, and learn more. How would you do that? So you've attempted to do that. You attempted to say, we don't want to be hit by the train. Let's go and talk to the folks at Bigtincan about sales enablement and get our content managed in a way that makes sense for our sellers. Or let's go talk to people at Vidyard or BombBomb and start to use video in our outbound selling or let's go to see if we can get some automated lead engagement, have conversations because a bot actually write our emails for us and do the engagement or whatever it happens to be right?
We could look at all of this, but it's a little hard to know two things. One is, is it the right thing to do? And the question is, will you quote unquote "adopt the technology?" I think adoption is actually kind of a silly metric. The real question is, do you embrace the technology, whatever it happens to be or the innovation? And do you feel like it changes your life? Like it changes how you feel when you're doing your job? And does it change it in a way that you see this being sustainable, working for you over time? I think people have really embraced zoom here. We are on zoom video. So people have embraced it and that's really what made it work. And even though we complain about zoom fatigue, it's only because we use too much, but then I'm sure they're busy doing something about zoom fatigue.
So there was a case where the embrace was easy and it was also however forced. It was forced by that high-speed train. If you didn't come up with or use a way to talk to people that's more intimate and exchanges more information than email. And even a phone call. Well, you were going to get hit by the train. So the real question here is, is innovation mostly about taking a technology and getting it beyond adoption, getting it to embrace? I'll tell you, I don't think it is. And this is what my fiance Helen taught me. And I've been paying a lot of attention to it. I think here is the real issue. Peter Drucker said it this way, a long time ago, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Well strategy eats technology as a snack. I mean, if, without strategy we're simply doomed, there's just no hope. Strategy is basically a list of steps that are positions that we could get to new places to go on a journey that is to where we really want to go.
So a strategy is not how we take the steps, that's tactics. It's not the shoes that we wear so to speak or the hiking poles that we have, or our backpack. Strategy is more like the rocks in a river that we've chosen, I'm going to step on this one and this one, then this one, and then I have to step on this one, even though it appears to come back toward the bank that I'm already on, because I want to get to this one. And from there, I think I can jump over to the other side.
That's strategy. Strategy is as a bunch of wares put together in a list, and tactics are the how's, and then technology is the what's that we're going to use either like shoes to defend our feet against the ground. So if culture eats strategy for breakfast, it certainly eats tech. And so the thing that we've got to pay attention to is how do we get a culture of... [inaudible 00:11:20] have a culture of innovation or use culture to innovate in a world where our sellers have gone home, so our sales teams, our home, our customers have gone home, where businesses have been wildly disrupted, but some of them have been wildly improved. What do we do with all this change? And the answer turns out to be empathy.
Chris Beall (12:25):
And I think we all get empathy. We tend to get it wrong. We think that empathy has something to do with how we feel and with caring. So I want to make a sharp distinction, how we feel about somebody else, whether we feel their pains, whether we feel bad for them or bad about them, that's sympathy. Our feelings are sympathy. And they could be very powerful sympathetic feelings, or they could be weak, or they could be non-existent, but it's not empathy. So, let's put that aside. Empathy is also not caring. That is I could fail utterly to see the world through your eyes and still care for you. In fact, I had something, a little medical procedure done and just had some stitches taken out of my face yesterday. You know, I didn't really concern myself with whether the nurse who was doing that work, whether she had empathy for me, that is whether she saw the world through my eyes.
My concern actually was, are we going to get this over quickly enough that I can make my four o'clock call? That was my concern. I didn't care if she had that concern, knew about that concern or whatever. What I cared about was that she did a great job professionally, that the stitches came out, that whatever amount of damage that might've been done was going to be minimized. And then we'd get it over with, I mean, let's get this over with and get me out the door. So I cared about her caring for me, caring is something that you do for somebody. You actually take care of them. You do something for them. Empathy is another thing entirely. Empathy is actually going through the effort, trying to understand what somebody else is thinking, how they're seeing the world. And Christopher Voss talks about it really well.
And we use it extensively at Connect and Sell when it comes to thinking about cold calling. So I'll just use cold calling as an example. I want to point out that the big issue here is not seeing your customer's world through their eyes. That is huge, by the way, you've got, you've got to be able to do that all the time in sales, but that's not new. That's not the bullet train. The bullet train is you actually have to do this. If you're a sales leader, you have to do it with your sales reps. And the old world of saying, here's your number, make your number and we're going to maybe provide you with some quote unquote "coaching" most of which is relatively, I think, disjointed to put it politely.
The thing that's required now, if you're going to work with sales teams that are remote, and if you want to have a cultural foundation for innovation, is to actually see your sellers, your sales people's world, through their eyes, as they're working from home, as they're adapting to the different ways that their prospective customers and customers are responding to them, how are they seeing that?
So if you want to do that, you kind of have to do something similar to what you do in a cold call. That is you have to go from a state where the other person is afraid. That is the general state of other people. Is that in a cold call, the other party is afraid. They're afraid of you the caller, because you're an invisible stranger. In the world of have I been left at home to sell, fear tends to predominate. And if it doesn't at one point in the day, it likely will at another point in the day, that is fear tends to show up on bitten and it really hampers performance. And so, getting the understanding that your reps may be starting from a place of fear and taking them on a journey where they actually trust you, where they think you're on their side, one of the things you have to learn to do or do organizationally, which is how we do it, is coach without any intention of evaluating.
And this is incredibly important. If you're evaluating while you're coaching, you're in big trouble because you're creating fear. Deming told us way back when W.Edwards Deming said, first drive out fear. If we want the truth, we need to drive out fear. So how do we actually do that? So the idea here though, is to show empathy. You can teach empathy. That is if you're not being empathetic, acting empathetically with empathetic intention, to understand your sales reps, I'm talking to sales leaders here. And understand what it is they're experiencing and see the world through their eyes, they're going to have a hard time doing it with their prospects. And given that tactical empathy in action with prospects is the key to being the winner rather than one of the very many losers in sales, this is super important. So I believe this should be your primary focus of innovation.
Number one, just like in a discovery call, ask the damn question. And don't just ask it once. And don't just ask it one way. Ask your reps, how are they actually dealing with all this change in a practical sense? That is what are they doing in terms of a place to work? What are they doing with interruptions? Do they have kids at home? Do they have a dog that needs taken care of every once in a while so that they can't run back to back? Do they feel like they're being run harder than they used to be or harder than as right before them, do they feel breathless? How are they dealing with this change? What are they doing practically? And how are they feeling about it? Two is, don't take all those answers for an answer. I actually go do their job. And I know this is something people are advised not to do is like, "Oh no, you're a sales manager now, you're a leader, don't sell".
I actually think no matter who you are in the organization, the most important thing to know is, how does the world look through your seller's eyes. Go do their job, a week is enough, but take a little mini quota. It could be meetings that you set might be hard to close deals, do some cold calling. I mean, if you're not doing cold calling, you're not getting to the source of a lot of their fear. And go do the job. And then be curious, not that judgemental with regard to the data. Look into data and ask yourself, what is it telling me before the pandemic, after the pandemic, for instance, what is it telling me, about how my reps are seeing the world what's going on? And then go with your reps on calls that is get joined them on a zoom.
You don't have to say anything. You can just be the intro and see what their buyer's world is like. And then discuss it with the rep. Don't discuss the deal. Ask what did we learn about what our buyers are seeing, how they're seeing the world. And then fifth slowdown. Everyone is running really hard right now with all this stuff that's going on, slow down. This stuff takes time. Your reps are alone. They're alone with a bunch of people, could be their kids, it could be their dog, it could be their mother-in-law, whatever they're alone in the sense that they're working without physical human contact with their own tribe. And it is the loneliest way to make your number. So when you're alone, the mindset that tends to predominate has a lot to do with fear. I think we all have to figure out what to do with fear.
And the main thing we want to do fear is first, just admit it, admit that it's there. Reps are often encouraged to be brave, rough, tough, hard to bluff. But when you're talking to your team, start with, what is it you're afraid of? This is what I'm afraid of, be transparent about it. This is where my fear is. Explore their fear and let it be okay. And then figure out how to drive out fear. Because once you drive out fear, you can actually set up a cultural situation where you can innovate around culture. And if you innovate sufficiently around culture, you already have gotten off the track. You're not going to be hit by the bullet train, but now you're free to actually look at technology and think, is there something here that would be helpful that we could embrace and that we can embrace it in a way that really makes sense and is on a solid cultural foundation. So that's kind of it.
Gerhard (20:48):
Chris, are you still there?
Chris Beall (20:50):
I'm here. It's 9:08, am I done?
Gerhard (20:54):
No, you're not. I think we have a few minutes, like two minutes, but I want to make a couple of comments. One is I love that you highlighting the fact that sales... In sales you're measured by your wins, and winning in sales is so important, and it's so challenging right now. Secondly, I love that strategy eats technology as a snack. Never heard that before, but I totally agree, strategy is so important. And I like that you talk about empathy and it reminded me of a saying that I heard a long time ago. If you want to know what John Doe buys, see the world through John Doe's eyes, empathy is a leadership tool. It is a product innovation tool. It is really a tool that makes our society, our world a little bit better. And I thank you for that.
Chris Beall (21:53):
Well, I thank you, Gerhard. You are my empathy hero. Every conversation I've ever had with you, you have made a point of trying to understand further what I'm thinking, how I'm feeling, where I'm going. And I think that when we do that with the people who work with us on our team, we help them to do it with our customers. And I think that's where the winds come from.
Gerhard (22:20):
This is exactly what is so hard to teach salespeople, which is taking a half a step back in a conversation with a client and see what is really happening emotionally with that person in the present moment, and really tuning into that mental state of the customer and sensing the emotions. And before you interpret, the more you are able to suspend the pre-occupation with the sales, the more you can tune in to the state of mind of the customer and open the conversation to a deeper level or to a higher level, or to explore a new perspective. And that's what I think co-creation is all about, that as kids, we all want to play, and as adults, we want to transform that drive to play to co-create and explore possibilities.
Chris Beall (23:24):
If you could change one thing about yourself to be successful, to be really, really successful, here's what I suggest it would be, totally lose interest in closing deals, totally lose interest because your interest, your desire, the deal is getting in the way of your ability to pursue the truth with somebody else. And when you pursue the with somebody else, you have a chance of co-creating. Otherwise, you have no chance. It's so delicate that, one little finger on the scale saying, I want the deal, that's the thing that kills the deal.
In the modern SaaS economy, adoption metrics abound. Sure – they measure something that VC investors care about, and sometimes something that product recommenders and even decision-makers want to track. But does adoption speak to business impact?
One thing for sure: when it comes to business impact, adoption metrics are pure vanity. A business doesn’t measure return on investment by asking how much time its employees are spending as “users.” Horror stories abound of products that suck up time due to their own internal inefficiencies, sending employees on wild goose chases to figure out what to put in that so-called “required field,” or how to coax a shiny new SaaS product into spitting out a coherent report on what it did for you — or, more likely, what you did for it. At its worst, a focus on adoption invites corruption, as the SaaS vendor needs to make a claim that their goodness is spreading throughout your organization and the buying committee needs to justify, and feel good about, their purchase.
----more----
Join Chris and Corey as they talk with Mike Genstil, co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, and analyze the practices and dilemmas of determining adoption, the difference between theoretical value and harvestable value, what a QPR has to do with renewal, and the role of a VP of Value.
About Our Guest
Mike Genstil is co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, an innovative company that enables B2B sales and marketing professionals to easily create and share visually compelling value propositions with prospects and clients.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:25):
In the modern SAS economy, adoption metrics abound, sure they measure something that VC investors care about and sometimes something that product recommenders and even decision makers want to track. But does adoption speak to business impact? One thing's for sure. When it comes to business impact, adoption metrics are pure vanity. A business doesn't measure return on investment by asking how much time its employees are spending as users.
Horror stories abound of products that suck up time due to their own internal inefficiencies. Sending employees on wild goose chases to figure out what to put in that so-called required field, or how to coax a shiny new SAS product into spitting out a coherent report and what it did for you, or more likely, what you did for it. At its worst, a focus on adoption invites corruption. As a SAS vendor needs to make a claim that their goodness is spreading throughout your organization, and the buying committee needs to justify and feel good about their purchase.
Join Chris and Corey, as they talk with Mike Gentsil, co-founder and CEO of VisualizeROI, and analyze the practices and dilemmas of determining adoption. The difference between theoretical value and harvestable value, what a QPR has to do with renewal, and the role of a VP of Value. Join us for this episode of the Market Dominance Guys.
Corey Frank (02:07):
Well, here we are altogether for another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall, the Sage of Sales, and Corey Frank. Chris, as you know, we don't have guests on too often, but we seem to be saying that more and more often that we don't have guests on often. But we just keep running into so many interesting folks, smart folks, that we want to get on the air. Some of the information, some of our conversations that we've had are just too powerful to have just in our little own Zoom world.
Chris, we want to certainly welcome our newest, oldest friend here, Mike Gentsil, CEO of VisualizeROI. Is that the name of the company? Is that the tool? Is that a little bit of both, Mike?
Mike Gentsil (02:44):
VisualizeROI is the application that our company sells. Yes, that's the name of how we market ourselves.
Corey Frank (02:49):
Well, fantastic. Well, welcome to the Market Dominance Guys. Chris, how about you tell our audience a little bit about how you came across Mike. Especially in our topic today, which I think is so captivating, which is customer success and customer adoption. And some of the flypaper, and stickiness that we all as sales leaders are trying to get at, and some of these vanity metrics, as we talked about that people chase. But yeah, let's talk a little bit about how you tripped over Mike, and why he's such a pertinent guest for us here at the Market Dominance Guys.
Chris Beall (03:21):
Sure. Absolutely, Corey and welcome, Mike. This is going to be fun. Mike and I ran into each other a few years ago, right? Three years ago, something like that?
Mike Gentsil (03:28):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (03:29):
And started working together with us as a client of VisualizeROI, to figure out how we can take our test drives and turn them into ROI-centric case studies. And we do hundreds and hundreds of test drives every year. I've been frustrated through the years with our lack of, shall we say, sophistication and compelling presentation of the value and the return on investment for our customers. Now, their investment in the test drive, of course, is just three or four hours of their people's time. Nobody pays for our test drives, but still you want to be able to show business impact.
And our conversation has evolved over the years to be much more about this big question of the business impact of what you buy in business, and measuring it, and making it abundantly clear. Both from the vendor's perspective, they'd love to be seen as having big impact, but primarily from the customers' perspective. We were just having a discussion the other day about this. Mike and his team were taking what we call our attribution report, which is a lame name for what did you get out of all that ConnectAndSell you bought, right? How much pipeline value did you generate?
How much directly, how much indirectly, and how much kind of, maybe, sort of? We shipped off some data to them. His team put together something that was just awesome that allows for an interactive QBR. We started talking about what is the role of the QBR? What does it all mean with regard to renewal? Mike said something to me right as we were wrapping up, which was, he said it kind of hesitantly. He says, "I'm not a hundred percent fond of the adoption metrics that people use," and I just jumped out of my skin and I said, "I hate them. I think they're corrupting. I think they're terrible. I think that they're misleading."
"I think they're gameable. I think they're for venture capitalists to care about something that they should be more careful about. It encourages people who build SAS companies to lie about their business." I gave him an example. There is a company that will remain unnamed in our space that we're in the same account with. The people at the account said, "These guys at this company, they measure adoption. If you send one email using their tool, that's adoption." We don't see it that way. You guys talk to us about business impact. I said, "Yeah, but we fail to actually quantify it for you." I said to Mike, "You hate it, I hate it. Let's talk about it," so here he is.
Corey Frank (05:56):
That is a setup. I think the first question then, Mike, with that is I remember working at a drugstore when I was in grade school and I had to stack the Sunday papers. Remember those coupon sections that came in the Sunday papers, and on the bottom of every coupon, they always said no cash value. Or they said cash value one 100th of a cent. And it seems to me, Chris, what you're setting up Mike on is these vanity metrics where one man's trash is another man's treasure and certainly vice versa.
But a lot of these adoption metrics, if you really look closely from a venture perspective or a valuation perspective, I can't pay my employees with coupons. I can't pay them with adoption rates, and so who cares about that? So let's talk a little bit about what are some of these other adoption metrics that you've seen, certainly in your years, that have that cash value of one 100th of a cent, or maybe nearly nothing to the rest of us business owners?
Mike Gentsil (06:56):
Yeah. I think the impetus for this discussion is when you think about as a vendor, getting a renewal from a customer. So often what you'll hear from your contact is, "Well, we did an internal survey and we learned that the adoption was okay or it was great and other tools or other services have more adoption." And you're like okay, well, that's interesting but the value of the adoption is what? Let's say that you give your employees free crackers and they love the free crackers. And you do a survey, hey, what's the value of the free crackers?
Well, everybody loves the free crackers. What's it worth? Should I continue to spend money on the free crackers, or if I have to make a choice, should I spend money on something like an automatic dialer that actually gets connections with people where I grow my business? I think CFOs want to spend money on services and solutions that create value and ROI, that's how they're wired to think. But the metric that they're given by the business owners of these solutions typically is just an adoption metric because there's nothing else that they are trained or capable of providing to the CFO.
So I think that kicked off the discussion around how do we bridge the gap here? Because the seller wants to communicate the ROI. The buyer wants to understand it. But in the meantime, the only thing people are looking at is adoption. I think it spans all of the main services that people are spending money on from a procurement perspective in B2B.
Corey Frank (08:27):
So there's a lot of noise out there of what really is determinant of true ROI. Very few of them, it seems actually have a dollar associated with it. Instead, it takes a little bit of extrapolation to get to the actual real value of what the impact is to that business.
Mike Gentsil (08:45):
Exactly. The good news is it's relatively easy to measure adoption. Then the second piece of good news that Chris and I have been discussing is if you roll up sleeves a little bit, you can extract and extrapolate some kind of value calculation, whether you're subscribing to an invoice processing service, or an automatic dialer, or a service that helps you reduce fuel costs. If you actually do the math and make some basic assumptions, you can get to a value estimate.
In that case, you're going to make everyone happy. The CFO's going to be happy, the business owner is going to be happy, and then the vendor is able to quantify the ROI and communicate that to you. The work can be done. We just need to roll up our sleeves as buyers and sellers and do it.
Corey Frank (09:31):
Chris, when Mike struck that nerve on adoption or so, what were some of the vapid metrics that you've seen over the years that prompted the visceral reaction that you gave?
Chris Beall (09:46):
Well, most of it's been adoption. That's the one. The fact is, it's not considered that but it's considered essential. With hundreds of millions or billions of dollars being invested based on these adoption numbers, which seem completely, well, not wholly uncorrelated. After all, if you get no adoption, nobody uses your product, you're probably going to fail spectacularly, right? In much the same way in our business if you were to buy ConnectAndSell as a service, and then nobody pushes the button and talks to anybody.
It really doesn't matter how great those conversations would have been and how much business they would have led to. This is the quantity, quality thing. At quantity zero, the quality is always the same. It's zero by default. It's not like it's a totally dumb metric. It's a highly gameable metric. Gameable metrics suffer from inflation on one side. Whoever is going to make the most money at the margin by gaming the metric is going to game it in an inflationary kind of way.
And then discounting on the other side. So then CFOs and other people who, with flinty eyes and green eyeshades will look at it and say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And so you get a runaway process of discounting versus gaming. And eventually, you just end up with is goo, which has no intellectual integrity to it and really no predictive power. What's kind of funny though, is on the other side, if you look at any estimate of ROI that's rational. Say you're measuring something, you're measuring a real something and at the end you get dollars.
Dollars are invested, and dollars have come out, whether in the form of savings, or in the form of gross profit contribution. The two ways that dollars move around. Could also be in the form of risk, which is the trickiest of the dollars to measure, this big industry around doing something about that one. Every once in a while, they get shocked and surprised by something like, I don't know, say a global pandemic, or a hurricane that's a little fiercer than normal. For the most part, it's cost savings or it's this other side of people call it revenue, but it's really gross profit contribution.
If you get a measurement going, the beauty is, say you love it now. You love what you're getting from Mike's company. I'm using VisualizeROI, everybody's happy, and we feel like we're getting something good. When we measure, we get a five. And the next time we measure it, we get a seven. It's the same measurement. We probably can rely on that being a 40% improvement over the five.
By the way, if the five were five percent, and seven were seven percent, most salespeople would report that as a twp percent improvement, which shows that they could use a little math education, as could many people. But it's a 40% improvement over a baseline that was established as being above threshold for investment. We can rely on real measurements of dollars in and dollars out to some degree in the absolute, but really, really strongly relative to a baseline that we've established. We cannot do this with measurements like adoption.
Chris Beall (13:13):
Where the marginal increase tends to be, shall we say frothy?
Mike Gentsil (13:27):
Corey, let me give you maybe a different example because probably everybody on this call recruits candidates. Part of your candidate recruitment you probably have an HR platform. You might have Google Sheets. You might have some, there's a number of other platforms. Now, if you are the VP of HR, and you're subscribing to one of these recruitment platforms, some people call it applicant tracking software, for example, and we have customers that sell this kind of software.
The VP of HR might say, "Hey, our applicant tracking software system was great last year. We had 2000 candidates submit their resumes into our software and we hired a hundred people." Great. She could say, or he could say, "We love the software, but guess what? What if it so turns out that those hundred candidates are on average, lower quality than another set of a hundred candidates they could have hired?" And what if it took them five months to hire those candidates, versus what could have been three months with a superior platform?
They might think this is a classic vanity metric. We used it a lot. We submitted a whole bunch of candidates. We actually hired people. But what you really care about, as the VP of HR, and the CEO, and the executive team is hiring high quality candidates that can add value on day one, and hire them quickly at the right price. That's a valuable system. You're not overpaying the market, you're not overpaying recruiters, et cetera.
If you were the vendor of that applicant tracking software, you would want to communicate, "Yeah, you used it a lot, but the value you got was substantial," and you would quantify all those pieces, and we'd back into how you could do that. I can give you a couple more examples where you want we could...
Corey Frank (14:58):
Yeah, no, that value communication, right, I think is key. And even what you were alluding to earlier, Chris, on discounting, I think Mike is appropriate, right? Because again, I'm a big, dumb farm animal. I'm a sales rep, and I've been a sales rep for a long time. Sometimes I have a tendency to discount when I don't need to discount. Mike, you're my boss, you're my VP of Sales. You think, "Gosh, Corey does a pretty good job selling," but am I really, because I'm giving away the farm when I don't need to. How would I be able to kind of track that?
I maybe think I ran into some pain and I have to discount, but I think that's also a metric that maybe is a little elusive for companies, that would be wonderful to be able to determine if I run into resistance is proportionate to discounting, true?
Mike Gentsil (15:45):
Absolutely. Corey, I think you're referring to a pre-sales process. I think it would also apply in a post-sales case. Discounting is a problem, both in pre-sales and in post-sales. In pre-sales, it's a problem because that rep, who is high velocity, likes to close sales, likes to hit the number at the end of the quarter, is very quick to give discounts. And truly the VP would be happy to take the deal at 80% of the price. It helps him get over his number versus if we had simply quantified value and quantified pain, we probably could have gotten 95% to 100% of the price.
On the renewal side, we have the same challenge. What you run into there is in an average or above average case, the customer will say, " Yeah, the adoption was pretty good. Bobby and Susie love your product, and we want to keep it, but we've got some bad news. The bad news is we're in a recession. The CFO's looking at everything very carefully and we have been asked for across the board, 30% cuts on everything." I'm like, "Okay, well, that is bad news. I understand. I'm glad you're happy with the product."
Now, what would I ideally be able to do in that case? I'd say, "Well, I appreciate that CFO's perspective. What would be great, because I'm not sure I can get that discount across the board. We can't tell our investors that we've lowered our average revenue per customer. Why don't we take to your CFO, the value that you've realized from the solution and perhaps you guys should buy more of it next year. Maybe you could redirect some span from some of those other solutions that are getting less ROI. Why don't you cut two of those a hundred percent and redirect that over here, because there's real ROI."
That's the discussion you want to have. If you've set that up over the course of the year, through your quarterly business reviews where you've associated adoption with value, you're in a strong position to do that. In the best case, you're actually paying that CFO somehow quarter over quarter. "Hey, by the way you used our solution 222 times and it generated $5 million in value." And he's like, "Who are these folks?" And then you'll raise the awareness. Then you're in a much better position at that last minute, and you wouldn't have to do the renewal.
Corey Frank (17:44):
To your point, Mike, where does this live? Chris, where would you and Mike see, ideally, is this a new role, a VP of Customer Success, a VP of Value? Because it seems like this discussion traverses so many different roles in an organization. Is it worthy of its own little responsibility? Is it an enablement? Let's talk a little bit about that.
Mike Gentsil (18:07):
I'll give you a quick perspective. What we see across our customers is there is a growing number of customers that do have a title VP of Value. That VP of Value can report into the chief revenue officer. They can report into the head of solution engineering, in some cases. They can also report into the CFO, in some cases. The more important point I think is not where they report, but the person that quantifies that value inserts those value estimates at every step in the customer life cycle.
There is a version of value calculations for marketing people, who are trying to entice people to become a lead. There's a version for your inside sales team that's trying to get you to take a meeting and you're quantifying value as part of that. There's a version for the sales person, and then there's a version for the customer success person. I think the VP of Customer Success, and the VP of Sales, and the VP of Marketing, they should be able to quantify value for their motions.
They should extract that quantification from that function. That function again, could live in its own silo or they could report to any of those folks theoretically. But each customer facing functions should be able to extract those calculations and use them to their purposes properly.
Chris Beall (19:18):
Wow, VP of Value. I got to go and apply for that job. That sounds like fun.
Mike Gentsil (19:23):
Not an easy job. You better love Excel.
Chris Beall (19:26):
Well, I do have a certain fondness for the occasional spreadsheet, as Cory knows. So yeah, it's interesting. In our company, we do something a little funny, which is our VP of Customer Success is actually evaluated based on the customers getting the maximum amount of business impact, which we tend to measure in terms of meetings that are set. Now, people will argue and say, " Oh, the meeting set might not have happened, blah, blah, blah," but I guarantee you over time, it's linearly related to value.
And that's the main thing is that you need a linear relationship between whatever you're measuring and whatever you're getting out, so that should it trend, the trending actually will represent a linear increase or decrease in the value that's being achieved. James Thompson, our VP of Customer Success, is held directly accountable for the value that our customers get per dollar that they spend with us. His job is to minimize the dollars that they spend for the same unit of value.
You could look at it two ways, but the easiest thing to hit is always costs. He's always looking for opportunities with his team to keep folks from using too much ConnectAndSell. You might've experienced this, Corey when you were our customer and I was acting in that role of VP of Customer Success. When you were a customer at StormWind and I was telling you to use less.
Corey Frank (20:44):
Here's a guy that didn't want me to spend. "Spend less, Corey. Spend less with me."
Chris Beall (20:48):
Well, it's not altruistic. I think it's like, look, we put a keel on a sailboat, not in order to make it go faster, but so that it can go the direction that you want and it doesn't ever tip over and leave you upside down turtle in the water, right? It actually slows the boat down, ticks down in the water, but try sailing in rough seas without a keel on your boat, and you get a little bit nervous. I believe that this attachment to maximizing the customer value per unit spend, that is their ROI with us and focusing on it because we have the inside track.
The thing that vendors, I think, need to realize is look asking your customer to do this is asking them to do something really hard. If they provide you with a little bit of data, you can provide them with a lot of insight, as long as you both agree what you're trying to do, which is to get them to spend the least with you to get the maximum business impact. That's what I hate about this whole business of adoption because it leads to exactly the opposite.
I want the marginal adopted user, think of it this way. If I have a SAS solution and for 10 core users, it provides for every $100 spent, it provides a $1,000 of value per year. Then for the next 50 users for every $100 spent, it provides $200 of value. Then for the next 1,000 users for every $100 spent, it provides no value whatsoever. I run out of the users that are really the high-impact users fairly early, but I'm under pressure to extend the usage beyond that group.
That's what I'm referring to as the corrupting influence of the adoption metric on customer success. It runs counter to the mission to help the customer be successful for the least amount of money that they need to spend. Then you can find their budget. And by the way, they're likely to reward you next year in a funny way. They'll discount less. The discounting of price is irrelevant compared to the discounting of value, as skepticism will cost you more than transactional discounting over time, every time.
If you can dispel skepticism by being upfront about the value that's being created and transparent about it, transparency is a big movement in business. Lay it out and say, "Here's what we're doing." And by the way, there's a big difference between theoretical value and harvestable value like at ConnectAndSell. I can tell you, I can save you money, right? After all, you can have a smaller team. Well, what if you don't shrink the team, then you didn't harvest that value. Are you likely to shrink the team within the timeframe that we're talking about for harvesting the value?
If not, it's illegitimate of me to talk to you about the cost savings. I need to talk to you about the opportunity, about getting more on the top line. A little bit more painful, but I got to go there. Maybe in the next budget cycle, you won't grow the team as much.
Mike Gentsil (23:35):
Chris, that was a fantastic example of that distribution or histogram, if you will, of value by user. A good example, perhaps for folks listening, is you think about a service like LinkedIn, where if you've got a team of a hundred sales reps, sure. They're all going to want access to LinkedIn. Now of those hundred sales reps, 10 of them, for example, are going to use that so effectively, they're going to find the best contacts. They're going to generate half a million dollars in pipeline per month because they're able to use LinkedIn so well.
The bottom 10%, they're going to use it, and they may or may not pay for their subscription at all, because they're not as connected already. First degree connections, secondary connections, they're not as skilled. So as a VP of Sales Operations, subscribing to LinkedIn across those hundred users, if push comes to shove, you have to become a little bit tough and very analytical around, well, maybe these guys got a premium subscription, maybe these guys get nothing at all, or that's where it gets very tricky.
Then the customers, to Chris's point, the customer success rep for LinkedIn managing that account, should be ensuring that the high value users really know all the great features, so they're getting more, and more, and more value. Maybe even be able to charge them more for more features. Whereas, they get the people at the end of the histogram, at least to a point where they can prove to themselves and the CFO they're getting value out of it. That'd be very sophisticated customer success. I have to believe that's where we're going as an industry.
Corey Frank (24:55):
Well, I think so too. And that's a great way to kind of end this part one session with Mike from VisualizeROI. And I think maybe in our part two, Mike, we can expand on this that you and Chris were talking about this. As sales guys, like me, the goal is to create a compelling narrative that sparks creativity and inspires that prospect to make a buying decision, a purchase. But often, I'm going to focus on what my product can do for the prospect's business, but I don't spend enough time demonstrating how it will actually make an impact.
I think in our part two, we'd really like to hear you and Chris expand on this evolution from moving from traditional, how do I justifiably earn an ROI and how I process that to more value-based messaging, which I think what you and Chris are talking about. And how that value based messaging can take ROI and go beyond just merely budget conversations. I think that's a good place to stop session one here, and to thank Mike for his time on this. Tune in next time to part two with Mike Gentsil from VisualizeROI with more on customer adoption.
In the last two podcasts, When Operational Excellence Hits a 9-Foot Wall and Myths and Misconceptions of the Cold-Calling World, Chris, Corey, and Valerie Schlitt, CEO and founder of VSA, have been discussing various aspects of striving for operational excellence. In this third and final podcast on the subject, these three sales experts turn to the topic of coaching. Listen to what they have to say about how coaching works best — and the challenge of doing it in today’s work-from-home world.
Valerie explains that what she misses is the way coaching worked before COVID, when she and her team were in the same office, with many of them calling on the same program. And they would sit next to each other, and listen to each other, and hear what went well on each other’s calls, and then copy it. This passive coaching among co-workers isn’t available now. And though active coaching by management isn’t impossible right now, it has to be done in a different way.
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In the past, using ConnectAndSell, Valerie’s team at VSA listened to call recordings together and then dissected calls as a team in order to teach and learn what works and what doesn’t when cold calling. Like so many aspects of working from home, coaching is so much more difficult when your team members are scattered across town.
As with most Market Dominance Guys’ podcasts, the conversation often wanders into related areas of sales. Hear what these three have to say about the often-misaligned purposes and practices of two related departments — Sales and Marketing. And then listen while Chris suggests a cure for the misalignment. Yep. You’re going to want to hear this!
About Our Guest Valerie Schlitt is the founder, owner, and CEO of VSA, a B2B call center that helps clients generate leads and produce new business. Valerie also heads up the Philadelphia chapter of AA-ISP.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:43):
In the last two podcasts when operational excellence hits a nine-foot wall and myths and misconceptions of the cold calling world, Chris, Corey, and Valerie Schlitt, CEO, and founder of VSA have been discussing various aspects of striving for operational excellence. In this third and final podcast on the subject, these three experts turn to the topic of coaching. Listen to what they have to say about how coaching works best, and the challenge of doing it in a today's work from home world. Valerie explains that what she misses is the way coaching worked before COVID, when she and her team were in the same office with many of them calling on the same program and they would sit next to each other and listen to each other and hear what went on on each other's calls and then copy it. This pass of coaching among coworkers isn't available now, and though act of coaching by management isn't possible right now, it has to be done in a different way.
In the past using ConnectAndSell, Valerie's team at VSA, listen to call recordings together and then discuss calls as a team in order to teach and learn what works and what doesn't when cold calling. Like so many aspects of working from home, coaching is so much more difficult when your team members are scattered across town and sometimes across the country or around the globe. As with most Market Dominance Guys podcast, the conversation often wanders into related areas of sales. Hear what these three have to say about the often misaligned purposes and practices of two related departments; sales and marketing. And then listen, while Chris suggests a cure for the misalignment. Yep, you're going to want to hear this.
Corey Frank (02:25):
Empathy as Chris and I talked about in many, many episodes of how it could be taught. Could it be beaten out of you? Can I take a pill? But how can you create that or engender that in a conversation with a stranger? And we don't have many tools at our disposal, right? We have our tone, we have our pace, we have our reflection, we have our intonation, or we have our pauses. And the right combination of that, like a good musical selection of notes. You can't just go to the waltz and say, "Give me a G, give me a B flat, give me an E and let me just throw it together." You got to kind of play around with it. And I think as Chris has said with his new keyboard here, sometimes you just going to just play, and then flow and then pretty soon you have a nice harmony and a nice melody and before you know it, "what do you plan?"
"Well, I'm just playing my own thing." But it sounds like it's something. "Who wrote that?" "I did. I'm just meandering on the keyboard." But it sounds like something. And sometimes the trained ear, right? Can hear that more than a newer rep and we need that power of that coaching to say, "Wait right there, that stammer that you incorporated, that's the right level of empathy and aw shucks and toe in the sand and vulnerability. That's what we want. Now do it another 25 times today. And make it sound like it's the first time he ever did it." And that's what's challenging, but that's what's fun if just like a good Broadway actor, knowing their farewell performance in cats has to be just... And hit the marks as they're opening performance of cats on Broadway three years earlier.
Valerie Schlitt (04:02):
That's true.
Chris Beall (04:03):
Yeah, Valerie how do you guys coach? I just heard somebody who has listened to a webinar this morning. I had to get over a bias that I have. I'm working on this bias, which is the modern way of speaking, especially the way that imitates California speech in which everything is a question and we can't say anything definite.
Corey Frank (04:25):
Upspeak.
Chris Beall (04:25):
I'll keep asking one question after another. And we use the word like a lot, because we don't want to say something is, but we can kind of say it's like, and so if we say like seven times in a sentence and then we sound really uncertain, then we're not offending anybody and everything's fine. Well, I'm sure I'm caricaturing a perfectly legitimate way of speaking that I'm just uncomfortable with and then it makes me think that somebody doesn't want to stand behind what they're saying. And so I was listening to this this morning and the substantive part was that only 20% of managers and sales do any coaching whatsoever.
Now I believe the number is above 3%. Actually. I'll be completely Frank. I think almost nobody, coaches almost never so to speak and they think they're coaching, but what they're really doing is just holding a conversation at the end of the week, in order to say how they used to do it back in the day when they were rough and tough. And maybe they'll listen to something or whatever, but how do you do it? Has it changed over time? Or how does your team do it? I mean, I guess drift is everywhere. I listened to Seth Weinstock, who's one of our top reps. He's not an SDR. This guy carries a big quota and makes it stick. And I listened to him today on a call and he opened it like this. "I know I'm a bit of an interruption" whose deaf. May as well put a gun to his head right?
Yet there was no way that that's the same as "I know, I'm an interruption." That was the retreat into comfort and comfort is the enemy of performance in everything that we do. And so here, what one of the best in the world had done that. And I guarantee you, he's totally unaware of it. I guarantee you that this is like a hitch in his back swing. He is totally unaware that that elbow came out and that club crossed the line and there was no way it's going to any way, except dead, dead left into the water after this, right? But he doesn't know it. So how do you guys do it? How do you formalize the continuous tuning that's needed?-
Valerie Schlitt (06:25):
I will say that we don't do it enough. I look at our operation here as... Okay, we've now worked with ConnectAndSell, we have a great list source, we have great hires and now we're a little tilted because I think we can be coaching more. We do coach this way. We have someone who's responsible for listening to taped calls for giving, then setting one-on-ones with our reps and for coaching them. And they're supposed to talk to everyone. So this is one person that does this and we have about 50 people. So they get to everyone once a month. That's not enough. By the way, we are hiring someone right now whose only job is going to be to do that. Because as we look towards operational excellence, that is one of the things we need to bring us all up to the next level.
So the table's not tilted anymore, but we also have team meetings for each client and we play calls for everybody in that team meeting. And we listened to good calls, bad calls and dissected the calls as a team. So there's one group effort, that's the one-on-ones with each individual agent and that is not frequent enough, and then the other one's once a week where there'll be some sample calls that will be either sent out earlier or actually played at the meeting itself. And we dissect those and talk about what went well, what didn't go well.
What I miss is before COVID, we were in the office and since we have a team-based approach, we could sit next to each other and many people were calling on the exact same program and they could listen to each other and see what went well and "How did you do that?" And then copy that. And we don't have that now. So that's one of the deficits of this COVID environment that we need to make up for. And hopefully this new hire will... A lot is riding on him. So we'll see how that goes. But that's basically how we coach.
Chris Beall (08:23):
Yeah. It's fascinating as a challenge, right? Coaching is so interesting because sales is so athletic and top of the funnel sales is the most athletic part of sales, where split-second timing, management of your internal states, of your emotions, I compare it to facing major league pitching that the main trick apparently to being a Major League hitter is to hang in there against that curve ball that looks like it's going to hit you in an uncomfortable place. And it's the management of your emotions and your expectations. And they call it "picking up the spin." What you're really doing is trying to figure out if you've got to bail out, or if this is a great opportunity. And that's a tough one in sales, and we do it all the time. We have to do it really, really quickly, which means we have to have practiced.
So it suggests that coaching is more... A lot of coaching is about what's in the moment. And how do we do that without getting close to the moment? It's like doing it the next day saying to me, "Hey Chris, yesterday in this call, you sounded like this." Like, "Yeah, but what did I feel like then? Why did I feel like that? Is not probably why I did that, it's more about what I feel and maybe even about what I believe? My beliefs might've moved out from under me a little bit." And so I just think it's the most fascinating part.
And you guys are always working out of both of your companies. I see you essentially as this; you get talent, you put talent into the seat and make sure that they're equipped, you get a problem for them to solve, which is "Here, talk to these people and get appointments," and then you deal with the fact that they're human beings. That's kind of like the four-step process. The fourth is dealing with the fact that they're human beings. You're both experts at this, right? Do you feel that that's kind of a fair characterization and the bulk of it is step four? Dealing with the fact that their human beings?
Valerie Schlitt (10:23):
So, yeah. There's only so much you can control with automation and with getting the right lists. And then you have, as you just said, the people, but-
Valerie Schlitt (11:12):
... honestly, in some ways it's beautiful because someone might come up with a wonderful idea and a wonderful way of opening the script that I hadn't thought of, or the program manager hadn't thought of, or even the client, or whoever's putting together that message. And then everyone can incorporate that or even the timing, but you can't control it. You're exactly right. And even the best people have bad days and that's the hard part, but it's also could be the beautiful part.
Corey Frank (11:39):
I think it's more the latter. I think it is the beautiful part because you think about the 10,000 years ago, right? There was a caveman who wrote out a wall somewhere and ink dye and berries, et cetera. And he wrote this picture of reindeer, right? Running in a meadow somewhere. So of all the things that they could write. So even 10,000 years ago, we are wired, right? For beauty, we are wired for reflection. He saw it, he experienced it, it was beautiful enough in his own home to say, "Listen, you know what could go over our fire here is I need a .... His own version of Van Gogh and 9,500 years before Van Gogh. And he, and he created it.
And I think if we can get the reps, our teams, ourselves as sales professionals to come above ourselves and see what we do and how we perform it as an art form, as did I... Chris's example of the pitcher with the curve ball and watching film, "Why did that curve ball just hang a little bit too much over the plate and they took it 405 yards or 405 feet out of the park?" "Well, I think I came a little late on the delivery. I think maybe I didn't hunch my back and get enough spin into it." And so it's about the technique.
"Why did I get the bad review in variety because of my play on Broadway?" "Well, the song that I just... I was a little flat, maybe the orchestra overpowered my vocals." And I think as a sales rep, and you'd say it's really about the performance. And once the rep feels comfortable that it's not about Valerie Schlitt or Chris Beall or Corey Frank, it's about the performance. "And don't worry, I'm going to get another audience in tonight and you have another shot and don't worry if you screw that up, because I got another audience coming in. I can keep bringing people in front of you. Don't worry about that." And by the sixth week, the 10th week, we're going to be ready for the Tonys."
So I think if folks can get beyond themselves, this bias that we have, get this mental toughness, this grit to realize that it really is... I'm not going to law school, I'm not going to medical school. What I do is I am a professional salesperson and these are nuances that I want to learn. And so help me, Valerie, help me, Chris, as my coaches helped me learn these, so I get better and better. And I think when you can kind of move beyond that, where it's an art form, I think reps seem to perform to those standards.
Valerie Schlitt (14:09):
Yeah, I agree. I think also it goes to the part that we need to be with other people to make things work. And when success starts coming and that sense of accomplishment, and enthusiasm, and even the adrenaline, that's contagious to other people, it infuses an entire organization to go up another level. I do want to give a little story about myself here. I come from a family of professionals. My father and three siblings are all pediatricians. So being in sales was really shunned. And I remember when I started my job and I realized I was going to have to sell. I think I went through a depression. So I thought, "Oh my God, you don't just open up the door and then people come to you, you actually have to sell." So I have really become a convert. It shells. If there was no one selling, we would not have this economy. We would not have any work for doctors to do. I think what we do is the most important thing ever.
Chris Beall (15:15):
I agree. This is actually, if somebody will ask me, given my background, what are you doing running ConnectAndAell? Like what's that? And run innovation at companies and built products and a ton of all this kind of stuff? And my answer is that we live in a world that has an ROI in a funny place. It's rely on innovation. We literally, as a society, we rely on a pace of innovation to deliver what it is that's going to allow us to continue to live together and thrive in the challenging conditions that earth always provides for us, regardless of whether we think it's easier or not. All you have to do to see all hard it is, go watch that show Naked and Afraid sometime and see what people are like without their technology, which includes their clothing by the way, and just see what it's like because that's only 21 days and it ain't good most of the time. It's really not good.
They were highly dependent and reliant on innovation and innovation generally doesn't make it to market. And it is the point at which it founders is sales. I was talking to somebody today who has a company that they have a great innovation, but he said, it's kind of a crowded space and they're just getting going. They have the product, but they're just getting going. They're building their sales machine. And he recognizes as the founder that the sales machine is going to make or break the company. And so he's out talking to people like me about how do I build that great sales machine? And of course my advice to him was, "Well, before you build the sales machine, it's good to have one set of facts, which are what happens when you actually talk to people in your hypothetical target market?"
And I'm hoping that he'll go ahead and do that because I think it's a tragedy to take something as great as what they're doing at this company and not be able to take it to market in a way that allows that to happen before they starve. It's like Naked and Afraid, right? They got 21 days before they run out of money. It's not 21 days in this case, it may be a little longer, but it's not very long before as a company... I'll go back to the COVID thing. We ask our CFO. "CFO, how long before we run out of money?" That's a big question in business and it's sales that saves us from becoming irrelevant. And I think you guys, you two and your organizations and the others that do similar kinds of work essentially are bringing lifeblood to innovations, which are of great value ultimately to the people who buy them.
And I think it is the most important job. What we call the SDR BDR job or whatever it does certainly defeats the CEO's job I can tell you, in terms of importance. You could probably replace the CEO of the cardboard cutout for about six weeks and you're not going to notice, right? But if you replace your top of funnel outreach people with cardboard cutouts, well, it's not good. We had one of our customers sort of do that once. And so they fell 11% behind plan and [inaudible 00:18:31] 12 weeks, and they decided to go back and do it the other way.
Corey Frank (18:36):
Well, weasels in essence are made of cardboard. We could agree on that.
Chris Beall (18:42):
[crosstalk 00:18:42] When I get done with ConnectAndSell, I'm going to start a band and it's going to be all keyboards and they're not going to be hooked up to anything. And we're going to call ourselves the Cardboard Weasels.
Corey Frank (18:58):
No.I like it. So last question, Valerie. And then the hostage is officially released from the Market Dominance Guys' holding cell here. But you've been a leader in the AISP for so long. You got to lead the chapter there and Philadelphia, which is no easy task. A lot of folks will say to participate in a chapter is one thing, to actually lead it a chapter, be an officer chapter that is a job in and of itself. So I'm curious, just for kind of our folks who are listening today is what are you seeing across the chapter that maybe the rest of the country as a leading indicator, maybe either some nice technologies, some new techniques, some common issues, some common shared wisdom, kind of as the chapter head there. What are you seeing that the rest of us should be aware of from your purview as an inside sales professional?
Valerie Schlitt (19:50):
I will say, I'll just contribute this. We are having our third annual conversation on the alignment of sales and marketing. And we've had this obviously for two prior years, and now this year. This year, we're actually getting professionals from within corporations, not coaches, not consultants or trainers, but people who are actually within the organization who have a responsibility to marketing or to sales, talk about how there's alignment, because there's often that conflict, that tension. And I think especially even in the field that I'm in which overlaps, sometimes sales and sometimes marketing, having that alignment is really, really important. So that's just been a theme that's been really, really interested, gotten a lot of interest from the Philadelphia membership, so. And I think the whole automation of marketing and whether that helps or doesn't help in providing leads is a great topic. And everyone has a different perspective. So anyway, that is what I will leave you with.
Corey Frank (20:56):
Yeah-
Chris Beall (20:56):
Wow. Can I jump in on this? Because this is my favorite topic of all.
Valerie Schlitt (21:01):
Yes.
Chris Beall (21:01):
Sales and marketing alignment. I think I've probably told the story on Market Dominance Guys. I'll tell it again. I once asked John Neeson, SiriusDecisions founder, what percentage of leads that are generated by marketing ever get a conversation? What's the highest number he's ever seen? And he said 9%. My comeback was, "Well, I don't think we have a sales and marketing alignment problem, I think we have a leakage problem." And my analogy was this, if I'm at the Talisker Distillery and the Isle of Skye and I'm visiting and I'm taking a look and say I'm a whiskey distilling consultant, and they're showing me their operation. And over here in one building, they're making the mother liquor, which is essentially beer. And it goes up through a pipe that goes along the ceiling and goes over to another building, because distillers sometimes blow up.
And when they do, you want them far away, right? So it's going over there. And I witnessed that there was like a flood of the mother liquor coming out of the pipe and 91% of it it's on the floor, would I say we have an alignment problem, or would I say we have a leakage problem? And I'm pretty sure we have a leakage problem until we're talking to a majority of the leads, probably 50, 60% of them, rather than talking to 9% that are cherry picked by somebody, according to their tastes. Really it's what it amounts to. In fact, we tend to talk to the 9% that are the easy ones to get ahold of, whereas the best ones are the hard ones to get ahold of because they're busy people. So I'm fascinated by that topic. And I have a cure for it that your companies can both provide that I'm going to suggest that you field as a potential product.
It's called the VSA young blood work sales and marketing alignment workshop. Guaranteed to produce results. And here's what you do. Take the marketing folks and train them to be cold callers and have them do it for a week. You'll be done. It'll be the most brilliant product on earth. And I guarantee you that all of the sales and marketing alignment issues will go away immediately. And it's not because they'll fail, it's because you'll make them succeed. They'll realize that the language of sales is fundamentally psychological. And the language of marketing is fundamentally about where products fit within an evolving markets. And there are two completely different worlds. And once a marketing person experiences being a sales person at the top of the funnel, they'll be able to make that distinction and alignment will be easy. So I'm going to beg you guys, please go come up with this product and save the world.
Corey Frank (23:46):
I don't know if there's enough... 91% of the market, I don't know if there's enough leakage yet. Let's wait for there's a little bit more pain, right?
Chris Beall (23:52):
Well, that was the best case.
Corey Frank (23:55):
That's awesome. Well, Valerie, Hey, it's been a pleasure. You're at vsaprospecting.com. One of the pioneers in the space and one of the true experts in the field of top of funnel. So really appreciate your time. And again, I think next time we have Valerie on we'll change it from Market Dominance Guys, to something more Market Dominance Legends. How about that with Valerie and Chris and [inaudible 00:24:19].
Valerie Schlitt (24:18):
Legends. Great.
Corey Frank (24:19):
Yes. We appreciate it.
Valerie Schlitt (24:20):
This has been delightful guys. Thank you.
Corey Frank (24:20):
Thank you, Valerie.
Chris Beall (24:23):
Thank you so much, Valerie. This is just, I know we were long in planning this. It was yesterday and then you came today, but hey, all of our planning has paid off.
Valerie Schlitt (24:36):
Thank you very much. I've really enjoyed it. I've liked meeting you Corey, and this was delightful.
Chris Beall (24:42):
All right.
Chris and Corey continue their discussion with Valerie Schlitt, CEO and founder of VSA, which began with the Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, When Operational Excellence Meets a 9-Foot Wall. Making another observation about operational excellence, Chris begins this session with the statement, “A big part of operational excellence is recognizing that you don’t always have the resources that you need to get the job done perfectly — or even well.” Valerie thrives on solving problems just like this one and is adept at addressing problems in unique ways. Together these three sales experts tackle the issues of maintaining operational excellence while running a business — either before or during a pandemic.
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As their discussion progresses, they debunk several myths about the best way to plan a cold-calling campaign, they tear apart the misconception of how much time it takes to onboard a sales rep, and they share some of the unexpected employment backgrounds that have made for the most effective BDRs. Always intelligent, often irreverent, Chris, Corey, and Valerie delve into what works — and what doesn’t — in the world of sales. You won’t want to miss their insights!
About Our Guest
Valerie Schlitt is the founder, owner, and CEO of VSA, a B2B call center that helps clients generate leads and produce new business. Valerie also heads up the Philadelphia chapter of AA-ISP.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
Chris and Corey continued their discussion with Valerie Schlitt, CEO and founder of VSA, which began with the market dominance guy's podcast episode, when operational excellence meets a nine foot wall. Making another observation about operational excellence, Chris begins his session with the statement, a big part of operational excellence is recognizing that you don't always have the resources that you need to get the job done perfectly or even well. Valerie thrives on solving problems just like this one, and is adept at addressing problems in unique ways.
Together, these three sales experts tackle the issue of maintaining operational excellence while running a business either before or during the pandemic. As our discussion progresses, they debunk several myths about the best way to plan a cold call campaign. They tear apart the misconception of how much time it takes to onboard a sales rep and they share some of the unexpected employment backgrounds that have made for the most effective BDRs. Always intelligent, often irreverent, Chris, Corey and Valerie delve into what works and what doesn't in the world of sales. You won't want to miss their insights.
Chris Beall (01:48):
I think a big part of operational excellence is recognizing that you don't always have the resources that you need to get the job done perfectly or even well and sometimes you just have to guess. And if you don't have a formal process for entering guessing mode and then doing the guess and then treating the guess as a fact, I think it's really hard to do. And I think it's a distinguishing feature among operationally excellent leaders, is that they know that they're the guesser and when it's time to guess, they're upfront about the fact that they're guessing.
Corey Frank (02:26):
So would you say Chris that all most operational mandates, operational posits, facts today have its origin story in a guess yesterday?
Chris Beall (02:39):
Usually yes. And COVID's a great example. When COVID hit, we were suddenly all out of time and didn't have very much information. How did we know we were out of a time because we could ask our CFOs when we're going to run out of money?
Corey Frank (02:52):
That's right.
Chris Beall (02:55):
That was the March 22nd question this year. You got to the CFO and you say, okay, so in scenario number bad, right, where all of our customers can't pay us, 22 million people die. When do we run out of money? And then you can reason your way to all sorts of stuff but you don't have enough information to tell you what to do and so you take a guess. And you got to do it fast, the brick's been thrown at your head. I mean, COVID was a pretty quick little brick. And so we guess.
And I think that's where the great stuff tends to come from because when we're doing what we know how to do, we're doing what we already did. So it's not comforting. It's not comfy at all. I mean, the people often ask me, what's the deal with leadership? Aren't you the leader if people following you? And I would say, not if they're just following you on a trip to the ice cream store. No. You got to be crossing the freeway with the busy traffic and in the dark with a dog chasing you. Then you find out if you're a leader. If they follow you then, maybe.
Announcer (04:11):
Let's talk about that operational excellence theme about guessing, right, in terms of Valerie at VSA, right. It's a top of funnel firm and you talk about... Chris that should we do everything as a leader, as a CEO, as a VP of sales, as a sales manager? And certainly Valerie, a company like yours and Chris, certainly a weapon like ConnectAndSell, right, are two such vehicles where... I've got across this little chasm here, I've got to... I'm faced with this nine foot wall. Do I want to go down? Do I want to just stick with mountains or do I already have a predictable pathway? You chose to go the path not traveled, right, the way not mapped yet.
So Valerie, from an operational perspective, when somebody lands at your doorstep as a VP of sales, what do they... Say Valerie I need help. I cannot do X anymore. I've reached the limit of my potential with my team and why? I don't want to hire any more folks. I want to try this new particular market. I want to test some new messaging. What state do you find a lot of the folks emotionally when they arrive at your doorstep whether to engage in VSA or not?
Valerie Schlitt (05:29):
As you probably know they arrive in all different states, but I would say the most common state is they know they have a problem, they don't want to or have any idea how to fix it and they have hope. They are optimistic and we've developed trust. So from there... I mean, obviously what we do in helping people set appointments, a lion share of it, I don't know, 75% of it is the same for every single client, but that other part makes a big difference on whether we're going to be successful for each individual client and that is the messaging or the team that we put on a program or the cadence that we call with, the list that we choose, all of those things. And I think of it as this big multi-dimensional puzzle that you have here, where there is part of it that's the same and all the rest can be switched around in different ways and always need to be switched around. It never stops.
You try something in the beginning and, okay we're going to go with this message with... So we have a team-based operation, which means that we have three or four people on a certain client that comprise one full-time equivalent. And the reason for that is we recruit people in a very different way than other people do, other firms do. And that we are not actually looking only for sales people, we're looking for people who have great communication skills, can engage, they're inquisitive and they also often only want some kind of a part-time job because they have other commitments. So there's this whole group of talent that cannot work in the traditional nine to five role and we get them. So we put them all together in this team and they share their feedback, they share what works, what doesn't work and they get kudos from each other and bravos. There's a whole team orientation that we talked about earlier. They're not doing it alone.
And that way we can also see who is producing, who's not producing and if someone's not producing then we can take them off and we know it's not just key person dependent. But who we put on that team is going to be dependent on who fits well with that particular client's problem. It could be what the outcome of the call is, it could be the industry, it could be the type of product, whether it's a service or an actual offering product. All of these little things have to be put together and you take your best guess based on 19 years of experience and start off a program that way.
Always telling our client being transparent that we are going to be making changes as we go forward, because there's going to be things that are not perfect in the beginning and we're going to have to make adjustments. And then comes the fun part, I think, which is making adjustments and seeing what actually leads to improvement. And then you want something that in the long run is pretty smooth sailing, always knowing that there is room for growth even after we've optimized as much as we can. Did that answer your question?
Corey Frank (08:48):
Yeah. So what is that common myth that you've seen over the last 19 years that can be most easily debunked or demystified, right? Chris talked about, hey listen, I can't do it all. And you have to kind of cross this mental chasm to get to another layer, another level of maturity, of business maturity, I can't do it by myself. But in relation to VSA and the business you've built over 19 years, what you find is that one or two big common areas that are debunked about an outsourcing firm, about a telesales front, about a top of funnel firm, that it doesn't take you too long for them to run your Jedi mind tricks to say no. In their whole world inception just comes tumbling down. That they thought it was a tree hugger about this for years, you come in, debunk this theory that they had and it opens up an entirely new world.
Valerie Schlitt (09:47):
There's so many, but I'll go through some. We don't need to know everything about your product or service in order to be successful and deliver qualified appointments.
Chris Beall (09:56):
My favorite.
Corey Frank (09:59):
Well you don't understand Valerie. My product is different.
Valerie Schlitt (10:04):
Exactly. You're so unique and so... We treat every client as though they are unique and every client is unique. But we need to know enough to connect with someone and give them a reason to want to talk more. And we have to be really good at that and not go any further because if we go further then we're going to ruin it. And that's... No one wants that.
Valerie Schlitt (11:05):
Another one would be that you have to have seasoned salespeople on the phone in order to be successful and we have proven that you don't need that. You need a certain personality, a certain inquisitiveness, confidence. They can't be afraid to talk to someone on the phone but we make them really excited to talk to people on the phone after they've been with us for a while, but at least they can't start off afraid. So you don't need a seasoned sales person. Cold calls really do work. People think that they might not work. Although by the time they come to us, they're open to it.
Corey Frank (11:41):
Valerie, I think just those three alone Chris, we should probably have Valerie out irregularly and change it from Market Dominance Guys to Market Dominance People, Market Dominance Prefect. I mean, this is... you're speaking the language that Chris has taught us over the last year. This is great stuff. So keep going. This is a great list of these debunked myths here.
Chris Beall (12:02):
You know there was this big ramp time thing and we had a funny thing the other day where [Sean Cece 00:12:07] who is working with us for a while and is now still working with us but he's outside the company, he posted something on LinkedIn that had actual numbers of him ramping to set his first meeting for a brand new client on his own outsourcing business. And he had it broken down to detailed minute by minute kind of thing. And his conclusion was, yeah you can ramp a rep and a new message to be effective with a business they've never seen before setting appointments in two hours.
And I think it was the most controversial thing that I've seen anybody say in a while. A a lot of experts came in and said, but what about what, but what about, but what about, but what about, and it's like folks, I published the actual numbers. Here's the recordings. It's right here in front of you. [crosstalk 00:12:56] Yes, but you're really good. Well yeah, we weren't talking about starting from when a person is conceived and then they're finally born, we are starting with a human being who can talk on the phone.
Corey Frank (13:08):
I just finished an interview right before we jumped on here with a potential candidate to come on board here at young blood. And Chris and Valerie, you're going to kick in this because Chris, one of the questions that John and I my buddy here, we were asking him is, "Tell me about your last position." He was a BDR and SDR at a FinTech firm out of California. So I was like, well that's fascinating. And I ask him, "So you didn't do full stack?" He was like, "No. I was just a BDR." And I say just, but he was a BDR there for... he did quite well.
And so tell me about your onboarding process. Well, we had two months of sales training before we hit the phone. And I said, "I'm sorry. I miss my trick here. Did you say two months of sales training?" He's like, "Yeah." I said, "You mean product training?" He's like, "Well there's a little bit of product, but a lot of it was sales." And I said, "Were you hired as a sales rep and then a BDR?" He's like, "No. This is for all the BDRs go through this."
Valerie Schlitt (14:00):
It's unbelievable.
Corey Frank (14:03):
We went over MEDDICC and BANT for two months and I was like, wow. I think that Chris or I should get Sean, get the name of that firm and have sent Sean Cece over there right away because, how would you'd like to take instead of 60 days down to two hours we'll give you the benefit of the doubt, four hours, and your folks could be on the phone to one of the myths to buttress what you were saying Valerie about. You don't need to know the product to be effective out of the gate here. Just be intriguing, you listen, some curiosity, establish some trust and some curiosity and you'll be pretty well on the way.
Valerie Schlitt (14:43):
Yes. Absolutely. That's amazing. Two months. That's a lot of investment that you could have used someplace else.
Chris Beall (14:51):
Yeah. There's a lot of opportunity cost hiding in there too when you really think about it. Everybody looks at this like, well I spent two months and that's pretty normal. I think two months is pretty normal onboarding for new BDRs out there in the tech world. And then the washout rate is about 60% over a four month, five month period. So now you have to take your two months and divide it by 40%, right. So you're going to multiply it by two and a half. So now you're five months equivalent on the mean and in five months I would expect a new BDR to set 2.3 meetings per day. So at 2.3 meetings a day times five months, that's 46, 47 meetings a month. So that's 150 meetings roughly speaking for three months and now we're out to another 70 or so 75. So we're in a 200, 250 meetings that didn't happen. And the value... [crosstalk 00:15:46].
Corey Frank (15:46):
Chris, they did happen. They happened for your competitor who's using ConnectAndSell.
Valerie Schlitt (15:49):
Not the case.
Chris Beall (15:54):
It's interesting how people do this math. And when you challenge them on it and say, "Well why are you doing that?" They generally will say, "Well, I read it in this book that onboarding works like this and blah, blah, blah." And what they're really saying is this, the longer this process is and the more elaborate it is, the more important I am. Because the biggest impediment to operational excellence in my experience is in politics. It's in the politics of importance. And it's very hard to be operationally excellent when the focus is on people being seen as being important, because importance, that sense of needing to be important or seen as being important has its own inflation built in. It's got its own version of, whoever's law you want to take or it could be Parkinson's law or some other law that says stuff expands to fill whatever it is out there to expand into. And the need to be seen as an important player expands and expands and expands.
I also think it's the reason that we tend not to see very many organizations operate based on the theory of constraints. Now, theory of constraints tells us that we have one bottleneck in our current process and it would be a really good idea to go find it, inspect it, characterize it, come up with an investment hypothesis, test that hypothesis and if it makes sense, if it works out, then make the investment and then stand back and watch the system settle down and see where the constraint goes. Well the problem is, everybody feels like they're unimportant because the constraint isn't in their department. And so they fight it.
And at budget meetings you very rarely hear say, "You know what, the stuff we're doing is going really well. I actually don't need any money next year beyond just resources to make it." But if you can get the politics out to the point where you can go after the constraints, and in this case the constraint is a false constraint around time. If you invested in this correctly and end up with the two hour ramp or the one day or whatever it happens to be, it's really challenging to get folks to say, "I'm part of the team. It's important that I do my job, but it's not important that I'm important or seen as important right now. It's okay that I'm just part of the team right now because my stuff's working." You guys ever see that or am I crazy?
Corey Frank (18:35):
I think it's part and parcel of the profession though. I don't want you to think about this Valerie, right. And you have a lot of part-timers, right. You say you have people who are... I'm secure enough in being a stay-at-home dad where I have a window or I'm secure enough to be a student who's going to law school where I have a window. It's my identity versus my role like Sandler talks about. And I think though that a lot of us who are full-time in sales, especially coming from the bigger organizations where you have the great equalizer is what's on the board. Or if I'm a sales manager, the great equalizer is how big is my team, right. It's the sense of importance, the sense of alternative currency is different than... And it has to do with people and time versus probably results in investment and growth.
And I think which ties back to our theme on operational excellence, right, is this element of developing a mindset where you don't have to put eight hours a day and talk with three people and spend 47 dials and send out 1000 emails. It's okay to feel your worth about how many people you talk to. Did you grow today? Did you learn something today? The word I think Chris had been stealing from you from a few months ago is ruthlessly curious. I think that's the word that you use that you try to perpetuate in your organization, correct?
Chris Beall (20:07):
Yeah. I'm a big fan of ruthless curiosity. And by ruthless, I mean, almost like a three-year-old asking why and not taking because I said so as an answer. And I think that that's a hard thing to have in an organization because it roots out politics all by itself, but it can also be used as a political weapon. And therefore it has to be managed. You can go around and ask why for the purpose of wielding power over people or you can ask why because you're genuinely curious. There was another element to this because some people are like that by personality, they're genuinely curious.
Valerie, I'm really curious about this. When you're going out to hire folks, do you find... The CIA and the NSA in particular, they love to hire people who come out of either theology backgrounds or philosophy backgrounds of some kind or music, musical people who are musical performers in order to be computer programmers on this really hard stuff that they work on, because those two kinds of backgrounds happen to be consonant with the skills that it takes to do that puzzle kind of work that you do in those organizations with software. And often it's surprising where the skills tend to aggregate in college, what people are interested in.
And I've seen an example of the best cold caller I've seen in years and years and years, was a therapist. I got to see her on her first day as a cold caller. Never done it before and never thought about doing it before and these very smart people in Philadelphia thought that maybe it'd be a good idea for her to give it a go on very specific ConnectAndSell test drive. And she approached us at the therapist. She listened like a therapist. She intervened like a therapist. And she set meetings at a pace that generated more than $120,000 an hour for their business of [inaudible 00:22:11]. so I got a glimpse into that and I thought, are we missing? We should... I mean, the psychology departments are full of these people who get trained in this stuff, but mainly they were attracted to it. They were attracted to it and therefore, maybe it's a magnet for a certain type of person that we could go and say, "Hey, you've got a couple of hours a day?"
Valerie Schlitt (22:36):
Fascinating. In the beginning, we somehow got through this network of people who worked in a preschool and a lot of the teachers came and worked with us. And very quickly I realized that if you are a preschool teacher, you have a way of talking that gets people to listen to you right away and do what you want them to do and you can talk to a lot of people, a lot of different temperaments. I forget what all the commonalities were, but there was a lot of commonality between being a preschool teacher and being someone who can talk on the phone and capture attention and secure appointments. And that was really an eye-opener.
Chris Beall (23:22):
Do you still do that? Do you recruit... I mean, there must be preschool teachers that are like Venture Capital in Silicon Valley, the streets must be a wash in preschool teachers, right.
Valerie Schlitt (23:33):
Probably are. We don't do it purposefully anymore. We kind of happened into this little network, but I'm sure that the same qualities of some of the people that we bring on are similar to that.
Chris Beall (23:43):
Who was the common nectar that you... [crosstalk 00:23:47].
Valerie Schlitt (23:46):
There was one person that came to the organization. She wanted to, and not everyone works part-time, she wanted to work full-time. So she worked full-time but she had these buddies that she said, "Come on, this is a great place to work. You got to come." You have to convince someone though who's talking to kids that this is really very similar and it's a nice place to work because it seems kind of scary. You have to make all these telephone calls and talk to strangers. But then little by little they came over. And I think we have had probably about five.
Chris Beall (24:16):
Now how about the flip on the other stuff. So I have an example, last year where a friend who is running a company doing some sort of a... It wasn't outsourced cold calling but it was for himself. And I looked at his business and I said, I think that you ought to give my first wife a try with regard to calling. And it just seemed to me, I mean, I knew her well, we were married for quite a while and I have a huge amount of respect for her capabilities. And it was just the most horrible experience in the world for her. It created this anxiety. And here, I'm saying, ConnectAndSell, lots of fun. You push the button and you talk to somebody.
And she said it was something really horrible like anticipating putting your finger in an electrical socket kind of horrible, not when she pushed the button but waiting for the conversation. And so here's a case of somebody who seems like a good match, smart, articulate, hardworking, courageous, used to run around business at a bookstore and built it from nothing, and it's the worst job in the world for her. And do you find that sometimes you think you're increasing the operational excellence with a particular hire and their eyes are bigger than their stomach when it comes to stomach and cold calls.
Valerie Schlitt (25:36):
I can't think of anyone in particular but I do want to translate to, as we've migrated over to ConnectAndSell and putting people on ConnectAndSell, people were really afraid at first that these calls were going to come, they weren't going to be able to study all the notes. I mean, you can see the notes of course, but you don't get to see, I don't know, six months worth of notes. And they were going to come shooting at them, how are they going to address it? Everyone loves it but change is hard. And that part of our journey towards operational excellence, it really didn't take that much adjustment, but it did take people being convinced that they would be fine if they get put on ConnectAndSell and now everyone loves it.
Chris Beall (26:19):
It's the scariest product in the world. It still scares me. It does because what you're doing is you're putting yourself in a known vulnerable situation without the precise control over timing. You don't know if the beeps going to be one second from now or 10 minutes from now. It has a little bit of a horror movie quality to it of being in a dark room with something bad in there and you don't know if that bad thing's going to get you or not. And then when the lights turn on, it's a surprise party and they're [inaudible 00:26:54].
Operational excellence is achieved when every member of an organization can see the flow of value to the customer and fix that flow before it breaks down. But as a manager of people, you know that this isn’t an easy goal to achieve — especially if your team members are now working from home instead of working together in one building. As Chris explains in a story about his experience mountain climbing and running up against a 9-foot tall stretch of wall, “We make a great plan — and then we run into that blank wall. The COVID pandemic is an example of that wall.”
In this podcast, Chris and Corey have a conversation with Valerie Schlitt, founder and CEO of VSA, about what to do with the problems this wall has created for her team members and those of her clients. Valerie holds a Wharton MBA and has 19 years of experience directing a great team of her own who use their skills to help VSA’s customers develop their businesses. “Collaborating with people is one of the biggest sources of ways to solve problems,” Valerie explains. But with the work-from-home movement, how can you maintain that same group problem-solving?
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In talking with Valerie, Chris and Corey ask for her expertise and share their own experiences in managing these challenges:
- How do you motivate your team to rally around a radical decision?
- How do you get everyone on your team to recognize the value of the expertise and talent of the other team members?
- How do you help your team members see where they themselves are deficient and then learn to bolster that with other people’s talents?
- How do you encourage everyone on your team to respect other team members when people are so different?
- How does self-importance get in the way of operational excellence?
As usual, Chris and Corey create an atmosphere of camaraderie with their podcast guests. You’ll enjoy the flow of conversation and the information these three experts share.
About Our Guest Valerie Schlitt is the founder, owner, and CEO of VSA, a B2B call center that helps clients generate leads and produce new business. Valerie also heads up the Philadelphia chapter of AA-ISP.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:34):
So today, we have Valerie Schlitt from VSA Prospecting. Valerie, it was great to lasso you or corral you into this. As Chris and I say, we don't have guests often, but when we do, it's truly a hostage situation. So, you will develop the Stockholm syndrome probably within 15, 20 minutes of talking with us. And so your hours to glean all this nectar of wisdom here, especially the topic today, which is operational excellence, which you're the perfect person. We have a Wharton MBA, right, Valerie?
Valerie Schlitt (00:34):
Yep.
Corey Frank (01:05):
You went in Wharton. So, I'm the lowest IQ person on this phone call by a great factor and...
Valerie Schlitt (01:11):
Not really sure about that but...
Corey Frank (01:13):
...And then before that you were at KPMG.
Valerie Schlitt (01:15):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Corey Frank (01:15):
So, impressive. How do you manage these type of wicked smart kind of guests here where we're talking about operational excellence. Valerie falls from the sky from VSA, one of the top of funnel firms in the country, been around for about 19 years right, Valerie?
Valerie Schlitt (01:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yup.
Corey Frank (01:31):
And the perfect person to talk and to be Chris's foil here as we talk about operational excellence and with that, welcome Valerie. Great to have you at the moment.
Valerie Schlitt (01:41):
Oh, it's lovely to be here. It's great. Thank you both. So I'll tell you exactly how I got started.
Corey Frank (01:46):
No. That's the origin story [inaudible 00:01:47]
Valerie Schlitt (01:48):
So I have this Wharton MBA, as you know, and I really thought I was going to be a corporate person my whole life. I was climbing the ladder. Here I was, several different companies, marketing management, and consulting. And then I found myself laid off in 2001 during that downturn. And I decided to venture off and do my own thing. But unlike everything I learned at Wharton or at consulting or in marketing, I had no business plan, no Rolodex, no funding, no nothing. I sat in my family room. I met some people. They asked me if I could do something and honestly, I discovered this is my modus operandi in everything I do, I'm responding to what I say the market needs. And that's how I started to VSA, just responding to one request after another and building up our client base that way. And we've done a lot of twists and turns along the way and now we're in a group.
Corey Frank (02:41):
That's fantastic. Fantastic. So the thought of actually using the phone to create conversations at scale.
Valerie Schlitt (02:48):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (02:49):
What a crappy business idea. Right, Chris? [inaudible 00:02:51]
Valerie Schlitt (02:52):
Honestly, I often say, "Who ever thought of this business?" But I love it. It's real. It's great. It's real. I gravitate toward something that it really is tough and you have to just do it over and over and over again and then you make a difference. You make a difference. We make a difference in our client's lives and in our life.
Corey Frank (03:12):
Well, it's funny because when Chris and I were talking about trying to cajole you to coming on the show here, right? The first thing that we talked about was how many influencers, and I don't want to disparage anybody, but the influencers on LinkedIn and right, Chris? That "I'm an expert. I'm a thought leader." And then you have someone like Valerie who has been around for 19 plus years, quietly going about her day with her great team, growing this incredible business, right? Who probably doesn't... You have a day job.
You don't exactly post on LinkedIn every hour of the day, certainly. So, if anything that Market Dominance Guys can do is hopefully kind of nudge you a little bit that you have so much to offer to the greater community. And I think that's certainly why I like doing these things with Chris and some of the guests that we have and all the great thought leaders that are connecting sellers. There's so many younger sales leaders, and even guys like me that you need help and it's a small community of folks who are crazy enough to pick up the phone and talk to strangers and ask them for money or time. And sometimes, we need all the help we can get from authentically real and genuine and experienced folks like yourself, who've done this for more than a couple of cycles.
Valerie Schlitt (04:22):
Great. Well, I hope to give you some advice. I can offer-
Corey Frank (04:26):
Well, first, let's talk about operational excellence today. So, how about you kick it off a little bit since that done, on your recent trip from Reno to Washington, you had a lot of windshield time and this thought of operational excellence. I get a text out of the middle of nowhere, say, "Oh, the topic operational excellence. I got it. This is a good one. I got to rip." And then we just happen to have Valerie. So we have lightning in a bottle here, hopefully.
Chris Beall (04:47):
Well, I blame it on the smoke. There was a lot of smoke I was driving through. And when you're driving through smoke in Oregon, apparently the smoke has got a lot of sources and not all of it is forest fire. So that may have just kind of crept in past my protective gear that I had on it, altered my thinking a little bit, but I've had this thing in my head for a long time, probably goes back to my long career in rock climbing and mountaineering, which is that if you can think of anything you want and you can stand at the bottom of any mountain or any big wall that you're looking at. And you can, you can think, and you can plan, you can get the binoculars out and you can look at the route. I remember once up in the wind river range, my partner climbing partner, Jim Haggart, and I spent three days trying to get a glimpse of this thing called Golden Eagle pinnacle to see if we could plot a route up because nobody had ever climbed it.
And we were really, really diligent about taking a good, hard look. But when you came right down to it, about 1600 feet up, there was a nine foot dead blank wall that you couldn't see with the binoculars from across the valley. And that stopped. And I think that's pretty typical of what we often find in business is that we make a great plan, we look carefully, we talk to people, we think it over, we make spreadsheets. And then we run into that nine foot blank wall and I don't know if you've never really tried to climb anything. Nine feet is kind of a magic distance, right? You can't reach that high even I'm not the shortest guy in the world, but I can't reach up and grab something nine feet above my head and blank means blank. Like there's no holds on it.
And that's when the operational excellence question really kind of rears itself up in business, I think, and in climbing and stuff like that. It's always easy to do the easy stuff, but all the easy stuff has already been done by everybody that is competing in a commodity basis. And you have to deal with the nine foot blank wall with great operational excellence with precision operation in order to be able to get all the way to the kind of summits we try to get to whether in business or climbing.
And I'm curious in this talk and that's actually why I was thinking it over. When I was driving up here, I was thinking everything I've ever done that I looked back on and said, "That was worth doing." There was some point in the doing where there was something that had to be overcome and it had to be overcome operationally. So I think a lot of times we think operational excellence is just repeating something we know how to do, but often I think it's not, I think we're more often in problem solving mode than we think. And we sometimes know that, when we're solving a problem, we're fighting a fire or doing something that we wish we did less of, we wish we could just repeat and turn the crank, right? But it's hard to make a machine where you just turn the crank, even a machine like connect and sell there's problems every day.
Chris Beall (08:21):
To address the problems and I'm curious about that Valerie said. Okay, you started this business with no business plan, just responding to people's problems. So it's problems all the way down to start with. Do you recall any times as you were going along or even recently where you kind of came up against it and went, "Huh? How are we going to get this done?" And then you had to figure out how to not just solve it that one time, but operationalized that solution to make it part of the business. Do any of those come to mind?
Valerie Schlitt (08:52):
Well, I think that if you have a business for 19 years and you both have businesses, you are constantly facing that nine foot wall. It's not every day, but probably six times in my 19 years, I've faced that wall. And I guess one could be just recently, COVID. All of a sudden here we are, we're faced with COVID and things are changing and we're saying, "Well, okay, what are we going to do?" And I personally think that coming together with people, collaborating and getting minds to come together and thinking and bouncing ideas is one of the biggest sources of ways that I've come to identify how to solve problems. I do not work well autonomously, and I think most people don't. And when it came to COVID, it was really saying, "Okay, what do we do really well? And how can we leverage that in a different direction? What else can we do? Or what's working for us that we can leverage because these other things are not working?
So it's like going up that nine foot wall where you're saying, "Okay, I can't go up it, but maybe I can go around. Maybe I can have two people helping me." And that happens all the time. I'm not being very specific, but all the time. And I think, really had leaning on the people in the organization, I had such great people who are always problem-solving also, and as you know, Chris, we work with your firm quite a bit and we are constantly saying, "Okay, these clients that we used to work with on a regular click and dial, and now we're using with ConnectAndSell." That has been a game changer for us and we've been able now to retain so many more clients and gain more clients that way as well. So-
Chris Beall (10:31):
That's interesting. That was the solution to our nine foot blank wall by the way, we did something we had never done before and never did ask her on a climb, which is literally the boost. You know, you're a kid and you can do this, right. You get down, you lock your hands together and somebody stands on the hand and it was my turn to lead. And it was pretty freaky quite frankly, not because I was depending on Jim's hand strength, which is quite remarkable, but because he had to belay me and be my foothold at the same time, and I was kind of thinking, so if I blow this move and I'm off and away, we all go and it was some ways down. I did get a sense of this is the empire state building plus about 500 feet of vertical below our feet.
So it's not like nothing's going to happen if you could aim at that direction. But I remember we spoke at various points in this COVID process. You and I did Valerie. And one thing that really impressed me about speaking with you about the challenges that you had is you have a way of reaching out to somebody with the very specific requests, like there's something that's on your mind and it's really specific, but you're very open-minded about the nature of how somebody responds to that, including if somebody and I often do this, it's Corey and I says, " I don't know if that's the question." And I think that's pretty unusual. So, looking at COVID, what was it as you saw it all happening that kind of made you think, " Oh my God," did you ever think, "Oh my God, we could lose the business."?
Valerie Schlitt (12:10):
I didn't think we would lose the business because we have a lot of diversification. So there are other sources of revenue. However, I did think about the employees a lot. That was my driving force, is that I have a team of such talented people and they are counting on me to be on and creative and thinking about their future and the company's future. That was incredibly motivating. So, that is probably what is the single biggest thing that propelled me. But I think also innately if you're a business owner or anyone who's a leader in business, who said that, Chris, I think you, that we are problem solving more than we're not or more than we think we are. So, this drive to say, "Okay, how can we overcome this?" So what was happening in our business is we have a lot of clients who are in healthcare and in healthcare, we all of a sudden heard people say, why are you calling me?
We are dealing with the pandemic, don't call. So that meant a lot of our clients would say, we're going to pause. And therefore we had to think, "Okay, well, what else can we do? What other industries are open? What other services can we offer so that we can actually keep our people in business and thrive?" And actually, honestly, this nine foot wall is kind of also a thrill, it's a little bit of adrenaline boost. So, you want sometimes this nine foot wall, because it propels us to do things that we might not have done otherwise. So for us, it was trying to go into contact tracing and use all the skills that we already had, but in a different area. So that's another line of business that we have opened during the pandemic.
Chris Beall (13:55):
No, that's fascinating because there is nothing scary in a business than going into a new market. I mean, this show's called Market Dominance Guys because market penetration is so hard that you better dominate a market once you penetrate it or you got to get really good at penetrating. Choosing to go penetrate other markets is I think the scariest thing to do in business. It's the biggest of the unknowns. It's the Christopher Columbus equivalent of sailing off to the West and hoping it turns out okay because you really don't get to see very well. As you looked around and said, "Okay, we have to go and go after some more markets." And contact tracing is pretty far away in certain ways from helping folks get appointment, right. Really, it's pretty far away. What led you to believe that you had the operational chops to, let's say, yes, you had the dog chasing the car, right? If you catch the car, how do you think you can put your teeth around the bumper and grind it through a halt?
Valerie Schlitt (14:57):
Well, I first want to say, I knew I had a great team who was going to keep us on the track of getting appointments for our clients. So that was never going away. We were going to, and we have stayed in that business and healthcare is starting to come back. And that is where the lion's share of our businesses.
But, I think it goes to this operational excellence. Really, the entire process of what we do every day is all about doing something really well, knowing how to engage and talk on the phone, so that someone wants to talk back to you. So you're delivering the right message, but you're saying it in the right tone, a lot of what we've learned from you, Chris. Also, having the right list, knowing when to call, how often to call, those are all skill sets that you need in contact tracing as well. So a lot of the operations of what we do is in fact directly transferable. Some of these skill skillsets, even empathy, it's more alike than you think. So it was not that big of a leap. And I'm really committed to communities and helping communities. So it fit my own personality and what I like to do and in helping, not only employ people, but now help people so that they can stay alive.
Chris Beall (16:15):
Yes. That's a good one, it's pretty cool. Corey, did you ever think about adding contact tracing to what you guys are doing over there at a Youngblood Works?
Corey Frank (16:23):
Listen, eight years of community college, I'm no Wharton man, and I copy ideas, I don't pioneer them, you know that. So there's [crosstalk 00:16:32] one. I am curious though, Valerie, we like to ask this to a lot of folks, I've asked this to Chris over the years, how do you think as a leader? Because it's a scary proposition, right? Even to Chris, Chris, you and Jim on that wall, you have a couple of choices. Number one is to do nothing, basically retreats, go back down and say, "Well, that didn't work." Number two, is to try an incremental approach. And number three is just to go for it. Who stopped? You got one shot, one shot, one kill pronged, the stakes could be higher. But did you guys talk about that to deliberate it?
You mapped it out. So Valerie you go in a contact tracing, because if you're wrong, it's not going to take down the company, but it's certainly going to be an expansion. You expend capital and you expend hope because there's a lot of folks during COVID that we're trying to grasp for different things. You only have a finite amount of wishes from the genie, if you will, where they follow you. "Yes. Valerie, we're with you. We'll do this." But if that didn't work, then maybe a couple of people like, "Well, I don't know Valerie." So how do you and your team kind of rally around a decision? Is it collaborative? Did you analyze it to the ends degree? Do you trust your guts? Did you test it a little bit? Or do you just, like Chris and Jim, just go for it and say, " Listen, I know it and we're going to rally around this battle cry here."
Valerie Schlitt (17:58):
Well, when I started the business, it was much more incremental. I just took baby steps. As I've become more seasoned as a leader, or looking at the future of the business. There's something that propels me that almost there's no going back, you can't go back and you can only change or go right or left or something, but there's no going back. And so honestly, there's just a vision that I glom on to and I'm going to somehow address it now. You bring up a good point because we went into the finals in New Jersey for the contact tracing. And at first, no one believed that we could actually make it. But as we kept on going further and further and further, the whole team was like, "Wow, we're really doing this." And then they're like, " Valerie, we knew you could do this."
And then we didn't get it. So that does expand a little bit to me that said, "Wow, we got that far. That means the next time we can get further, it would be like going up to eight feet and say, next time it's going to be nine." But maybe there's some people that will lose a little faith. I think that's on them. I think taking risks is really important. And really I look at everything at what is the benefit if it works out and what is the downside if it doesn't work out? How bad could it really be? It can't be that bad. So we just stay the way we are. That's okay. But if we have the opportunity to try something else that's could be really cool and make a mark in this society. That would be great. And so let's go for it.
Chris Beall (19:29):
Question about your past. We kind of went back to the Wharton thing and all that. I think that as you know, I'm engaged to the incomparable Helen Nucci and she's she went to MIT on her own back, right. She figured out how to get in. She figured out how to get through, very similar to you in certain ways, by knowing how to reach out and ask for help from people and ask for advice. I think that's one of the greatest skills in the world is to be able to do that.
I'm very poor at it myself, which is why I thrashed around like a fish that's been brought up on a boat for a long time, but you're really, really good at that. When did you realize when you were, I'm assuming it's when you were a kid, that things that other people struggled with, that you could actually do? There has to be a point somewhere because now you do it and talk about it like, "Yeah, we go for it." Right? But at some point when you were a child or somewhere, there has to be an experience or something where you went, " Huh, that's interesting. These other folks are kind of going, I don't think we can do this and I think I can do this." Did that happen to you? Can you remember that?
Valerie Schlitt (20:40):
I remember one time, but it was not when I was a kid. So I think I was a very, very humble person. I didn't think anything I did was quite remarkable. I thought I was just doing what I was supposed to be doing. And then at some point, someone remarked on my problem solving skills. And I had just thought that was natural. I did not know that they were different than anyone else's skills. And from then on, I think I realized that I looked at problems and address them, maybe not so differently than other people, but in a unique way or that I actually thrive on it, that it's a passion of mine to solve problems. So that's the only thing I can actually say. And I don't think it has anything to do with being particularly smart or being particularly brave or being a technical capability. It's just a mindset of solving problems.
Chris Beall (21:33):
You just like them?
Valerie Schlitt (21:34):
Yes,
Chris Beall (21:38):
I do too so I think pretty fascinating.
Valerie Schlitt (21:39):
I don't like it when people make things out to be so simple because I'd like to find out, well, what is hard? Let's try to solve the hard ones.
Chris Beall (21:47):
That's really interesting. Well, when you were in school and you were taking the classes that have problems in them, like math is often one that, in our English classes, we're asked to write stuff in our math classes, we're asked to literally solve problems. That's what they're called. They're called problems. Right?
Valerie Schlitt (22:04):
You're a genius in math. I am horrible in math. So I have learned that I need, Oh, here's a good example. I have learned through my experiences. I went through the Goldman Sachs program. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's for small businesses, you take a course that Goldman Sachs put together. Even though I had my MBA from Wharton, I still went through this. And through there, I realized at the end, I really need to get someone to help me with the finances because I'm struggling way too much and I can use my capabilities someplace else. So now I have a great CFO, a fractional CFO who works with us and his honestly, if I didn't have, his name is Steven, we would be struggling, trying to solve certain problems that he can solve in an instant. So I think that's another one of reaching out. I guess we find out where am I deficient? And I am very deficient in very many ways and bolster that with other people's talents.
Chris Beall (23:04):
Well, what a talent that is. I've often bristled at the notion that we should all be doing everything. And it's often implied by these self-help types that are out there. It's like, "Do this, do that, be strong about this." And to incite, well, it's almost always a team game and the main thing we do in a team is we cover each other's weaknesses because we got them. So let's be as upfront as we can be about our weaknesses and then cover them. As you know, I sucked so badly, simple logistics that you can't hope to have me show up at something scheduled two weeks from now. And it's a conference talk or whatever. If Shelley Morrison, doesn't make sure that I know that I've got to do it and it's on this day and somebody took care of PowerPoint or one slide that we do and all that I'm hopeless.
Right? And so I'm just thrilled to be able to have somebody help me with that stuff because I could work on it the rest of my life and I'd still suck, there's no doubt about it. So, I think that ability when we're talking operational excellence, I think we often think about the individual, but the cheapest way to get it is to get a team together of people. Each one of whom is very strong in one area and let all the others be as weak as they want to be, and then make sure that everybody respects each other and lets whoever's great at whatever, take that thing and do it.
Valerie Schlitt (24:19):
I think that the idea of letting everyone respect each other is really important and hard. And I'd love to hear how you've been able to do that, to get other people, to respect differences because a lot of people look at other people and they want them to be just like themselves.
Chris Beall (24:35):
It's a tough one. It's easy to do for me and my areas of weakness, because then I can just model what I want by holding a problem-solving meeting with somebody who's superior in that area and making it abundantly clear that I see that person as the leader. I think that leadership shifts around appropriately based on the moment and making it abundantly clear. I am following now, this person is leading and being very explicit about it makes a big difference and I'm big into explicitness. Anyway, here's a story from my deep past. So I was hired at a company called CAD Information Systems that we changed the name to CADIS fairly shortly to build the world's first engineering oriented electronic catalog system that would allow an engineer to find a park that they needed to reuse in a design from the panoply of parts that might've been already sourced in are hiding and the MRP database or ERP database or whatever you call the item master.
And the first thing I did when I got the team together, there were just three people, as I said, we're going to sit in a room until we know what all the words mean. And we're just kind of put words on the whiteboard that we think are relevant to this business. And until we have an ostensive definition where we can point to one formal definition, where we can describe it in other words, a comparative definition, we can say, it's like this, a distinctive definition where you can say, it's not this, it's not this, it's not that. And do it for every word that we're going to encounter in the next 10 years of doing this. We're not leaving this room.
And of course the software developers thought I was out of my mind. But to me it was the essence of operational excellence in design is to know what you're talking about. And so get explicit. And it was painful. People yelled at each other and stuff. But when we were finished, our distinguishing feature is we had a common language of discourse forever and we could call each other out on using a word in precisely. That was a term of art in our business. I think that we do this in a way with each other, but allowing people to be precisely understood in terms of their capabilities and say, this is so-and-so's thing because they're really, really good at this. And therefore, when we're doing that, they're the leader.
When we’re performing in the presence of someone we know to be more expert than we are, our performance usually suffers. In the world of sales, managers often put this pressure on salespeople, although often unwittingly. They may approach their sales rep with every intention of being a helpful coach, but too often they slip into the role of a critical evaluator instead. And as soon as a salesperson thinks they’re being evaluated, fear sets in — their stomach sinks, their voice tightens up, their intended flow of words gets backed up — and there goes their normal, relaxed performance.
In this podcast, Chris talks with Susan Finch, president of Funnel Radio, on this topic and then segues into the benefits of how a mutually beneficial relationship between members of the company’s team (sales, research, engineering/manufacturing, customer support) creates the best possible means of serving customers. Chris and Susan then discuss how showing appreciation and respect for the behind-the-scenes team members keeps those people from feeling invisible, motivates them to perform better, and to willingly offer support to the people on the front line.
Join Chris and Susan for another relaxed, entertaining, and informative Market Dominance Guys podcast as they explore what works and what doesn’t when managing salespeople and dominating your market.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:06):
When we're performing in the presence of someone we know to be more expert than we are, our performance usually suffers. In the world of sales, managers often put this pressure on salespeople, although often unwittingly. They may approach their sales rep with every intention of being a helpful coach, but too often, they slip into the role of a critical evaluator instead, and as soon as the salesperson thinks they're being evaluated, fear sets in, their stomach sinks, their voice tightens up, their intended flow of words gets backed up and there goes their normal, relaxed performance.
I'm Susan Finch, president of Funnel Radio, and in this podcast, I talk with Chris Beall on this topic, and then we segue into the benefits of how a mutually beneficial relationship between members of the company's team, sales, research, engineering, manufacturing, customer support creates the best possible means of serving customers. Chris and I then discuss how showing appreciation and respect for the behind-the-scenes team members keep those people from feeling invisible, motivates them to perform better, and to willingly offer support to the people on the frontline. Join us for this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Coaching Versus Evaluating: How Fear Impacts Performance.
Chris Beall (01:54):
Sales is a game ultimately of dissonance and irony, ultimately of dissonance and irony. There's very little of it where you get to play it straight up because you're operating in the field of other people's emotions and their factual vulnerability. They are vulnerable to you if they let you begin to pitch them, and so there's resistance, "psychological reactance" is generally what it's called, and they can't help it. Then if you respond to that by being offended that they're rejecting you by raising an objection, you're toast.
Jeb Blount wrote a whole book on this called Objections. Here's the book. I mean, it's a brilliant book. Don't take my synopsis and say, "I've read the book," but here's the book. Inside, we hear objections, which are reasonable things for people to say in their circumstance, as rejection, and rejection is the toughest thing that happens to us because it creates embarrassment for us. How we handle hearing an objection and dealing with our inevitable emotional response internally that it's rejection is the key to handling the hard part of sales, which is what to do when they say no and they don't mean it.
What do you do when they say no, but that's not what they mean, because you can't say, "You didn't mean that"? What do you do? Jeb makes this point, which is you do a thing called "ledging." I'm an old climber, as you know. My game growing up was rock-climbing and mountaineering and a ledge, when I just heard the word for this first time, "ledging," a ledge is a safe place. Ledges are where you sit and belay, they're where you sleep, and they're where you don't need handholds anymore. When you're climbing, sometimes you can go through extended periods of time where one hand or the other must be very active on the rock holding on, or else bad things happen, right? For certain kinds of climbs that can get worse than others. It's always a game where you can't make an awful lot of mistakes. It's kind of a tense game. A ledge is where you can relax and that's his point.
How do you ledge? You just have to have a word or phrase that you say out loud at that point that tells you that you've had the reaction of rejection to an objection so that you can have a little bit of time to regain your equilibrium, assess the situation, categorize the objection, and know what kinds of things you might want to be addressing at that point. My ledge is the word "fantastic," so when somebody calls me and says, "Our number nine production system just went down for the second time this week," I say, "Fantastic," because that feels like rejection by the system to me. It's like, "Oh, man, did it go down? Our users need it. It's down. That's not a good thing." I feel bad on the inside, so I go to my ledge and my ledge is the word "fantastic." It sounds good to me, "fantastic." I love the way it sounds. It's poetic. It's three syllables, it's like a little haiku: "Fantastic!" It's real easy to say with an exclamation point on the end and not be sarcastic.
Susan Finch (05:24):
But that is the key, too: It takes practice.
Chris Beall (05:32):
Yes. Everything takes practice. That takes a lot. You golfers know this, right? The hard thing in golf is not hitting the shot that you know is your weakness when trouble is on the side that you tend to go, so all of us have a tendency to either hit the ball left or hit the ball right. There's nobody who has a tendency to hit it down the middle. That doesn't exist, even the great golfers. "My miss," it's referred to as "my miss." My miss is a hard hook and it goes left.
Lee Trevino said this very well. He said, "You can talk to a slice, but a hook just won't listen." He might've said, "You can talk to a fade," to make it more polite, "and a hook just won't listen." I love that. You can yell at a ball that's going to the right and it'll listen to you because it's not going that hard to the right. But when you hook it, it's coming down. It's not just going to left, it's coming down, right? Well, when trouble's on the left and it's a game situation, so to speak, it's important, it's the club championship, or it's just you're going to break your own record or you care or whatever, that's when the hook comes up for me. That's when it comes out and it's because in my head, I have failed to say, "Fantastic, it's out of bounds to the left. OB to the left. Fantastic." Right, and treat that as a clarifying moment.
Susan Finch (07:01):
On the last episode, Chris and I have been talking about scarcity and abundance and economics. Let's go on with our conversation from last episode and continue it because I think this is the only way for us to break cycles as sales professionals before we really can get started. For those of you that have to sell, but you don't think you're a sales professional, you still need to know how to break these cycles.
Chris Beall (07:26):
Yeah. I mean, everybody has to sell. Everybody has to sell and most people get pretty locked up when they're trying to do it when it counts. Most people are actually pretty good at it when they really believe that the outcome is a good outcome, even if it's just for them. As little kids, we're really good at it. We're really good at whining at mom when we're in the grocery store to ask for the candy bar that we know we're not supposed to have. We've become quite effective little sales monsters at that point, right?
All of us, except for a certain class of person that none of us happen to be, thank God, we get tight when we have to perform in the presence of somebody we know to be more expert than we are, and so when the pressure is on, we might be able to perform, but when the pressure is on and the master is there, it's hard to perform. That's evidence that we have a hard time performing in general anything. If you've learned to juggle three balls and then you're in the presence of somebody who can juggle five, your three-ball juggling goes to hell in a handbasket. That's all there is to it.
I experience this on occasion. COVID has really saved me from it because we live in splendid isolation now, so I have this beautiful little Yamaha electronic piano that is sampled from their big concert grand, so it sounds just like the big concert grand, at least in my mind, and I can sit down and play quite comfortably in the evening and my fiance will listen to me and she'll say she loves it. That's easy. All you have to do to make me into a horrible, halting, unsure piano player would be to have my sister's boyfriend, who is a brilliant pianist and a piano tuner, walk in the room, or just tell me that he's coming to visit, and I will suddenly not know what the major third of an E flat chord is. I'll know it, but I won't be able to execute it. I'll be unsure of myself, and that little feel I have, which is, "Where is that? Oh, that's the one between those two black keys that I feel here with this finger," that feel is going to go away like that.
I think that's what happens when we get tight is we lose access to the feel feedback and it's overwhelmed by this performance expectation feedback. Salespeople often put that on themselves, and worse, sales managers often put it on salespeople by showing up. When they should be in a coaching role, they're in an evaluation role. If you want to ruin somebody's performance, and especially in something athletic like sales, all you have to do is make it clear that you're evaluating their performance while they're trying to perform and you will guarantee the outcome that you already knew was going to happen. That's why it's a self-fulfilling prophecy of scarcity.
Getting over that is hard, and one way to do it organizationally, and I'm a big believer when you can do something organizationally if you have the money for the extra person, or you can figure out how to allocate, go with a part-time person or whatever in a role, do it rather than doing it through personal transformation because personal transformation is long, it's expensive, and your overhead is burning a hole in your pocket and your company.
For instance, an example is the difference between managing and coaching. In the NFL, we manage out of the front office, there's a person called a "general manager." They choose the players. The coach has input, but the general manager is responsible for making sure the right players are hired to be on the team and whether they're fired or not is their choice. The coach decides whether to play them or not. That's a different thing. The coach also trains them, teaches them, helps them, gets inside their head, understands when their problem is a psychological problem or physical problem, does all that. But the coach doesn't hire and fire. They have some influence on that, but they don't actually do that.
In sales, which is more athletically demanding than NFL football by far, we make a mistake when we coach out of the leader's position, when we're confusing the person we're coaching with, whether we're coaching them or evaluating them because as soon as we're evaluating them, we're ruining their performance, they tighten up, and in sales, when you tighten up, you're toast. You're just toast when you tighten up. The scarcity mindset, it's something that we tend to say we must address it within the individual by fixing their mindset. We can help with that. We can encourage it. We can provide. Go to Gerhard Gschwandtner's Peak Performance Mindset Retreat and jump out of an airplane, drive that Ferrari. Now, have somebody help you understand where your beliefs come from so someday you might be able to do something about them.
But we can also do it organizationally, and sales is a team game, even when it's played alone. That's something that I think we often forget because sales in history was done like this: "Here's your territory. Go get them, tiger." That's it. That was sales management forever and ever and the salesperson was a business person who owned a territory and they kept that territory. They bought that territory by making their quota and then the territory itself had an increasing value by increasing the quota. It was actually pretty simple, right? Asset must increase in value to be worth the investment. The way it increases in value was we keep raising the quota. The salesperson who wants to keep buying that territory keeps buying it by hitting that quota. That's the old model. That's not the new model.
Software ate the world. There is no inventory anymore to be disposed of, of significance. There are engagements, there's helping, there's this whole new world where there's no inventory, so sales immediately became a team game, and it's hard for folks to recognize that. The most important team relationship is between the player and the coach, but the coach is best, I won't say only, but is best a coach without hiring or firing authority and kind of keeping out of that, kind of keeping out of it. Let the facts speak for themselves, including the performance facts, the recordings, all that kind of stuff, but let the coach just be there to help performance, help you get better.
Susan Finch (14:14):
What about the other players, though? How do they factor in? To the individual performance of one salesperson, you're saying the team is a big thing, it isn't just the coach.
Chris Beall (14:24):
No, I mean, it's a lot. There's a lot of players on the team. There's whoever is the expert on the product. How do they interact with the salesperson so the salesperson is knowledgeable about the things that are worth being knowledgeable about and confident in the product's ability to carry those out for the right prospect?
Chris Beall (15:30):
How does that happen? Product knowledge is inferior to product confidence, so how does that happen? That needs to happen in the relationship between the product team and the salespeople, so if the product team is very engineering-focused/oriented, they're engineers, they tend to see salespeople as these inferior beings who aren't smart enough to build products, and therefore, they talk down to them. Well, when you talk down to a salesperson about a product, you actually reduce their confidence in their ability to represent the product correctly, so you're actually hurting yourself when you do this. Those are key members of the team.
Support is key members of the team. Things go bad. Things are going to go bad. In the modern world, everything is support-oriented and having a relationship between support and sales that is supportive and where sales is not using support as an excuse for future failure. That's a two-way street because sales really owes support their support and support needs to be thinking, "Hmm. Instead of just running the regular book here, is this a case where I could take the extra minute and inform the salesperson responsible for this account what I'm doing and get a little guidance about the business context?" Maybe there is no renewal immediately coming up, but there might be a renewal discussion that's happening because of an upsell opportunity. You wouldn't know that as the support person. You'll find it out if you ask the salesperson, "Is there some nice to be thinking about before I do this?" Because I could support like this the regular way, or I could do the extra effort and get in a screen-share and actually help them. It'll take a little bit more time. Is this person really important to you, o salesperson?
It's a team game on the support dimension. It's certainly a team game on the information dimension. You're getting information about who to go and call on. But by the way, I highly recommend that the information team, the data team be separate. Why? That's actually for a different reason. It feels bad to do work you can't do very well and it reduces your confidence and most don't do data work very well because their brains are not organized for data work, so they don't see it. They don't see the data at all, or it's hard for them to see. The same thing with writing. Most salespeople were not the person who in the English class raised their hand and was the best writer in class, so support in these areas for different elements of the job let the salesperson be free to execute.
Susan Finch (18:17):
I agree. I can tell a difference within a minute when I call a support team that is in the position of being the punching bag and when you call the support team that you know they have this level of confidence that, "No, we're the ones that keep everybody happy. We're the ones that bring back more business. We're the ones that hold this all together," and whether it's true or not, they feel it, and it comes through to where I know I can relax because they're handling this for me, they'll solve my problem, which builds my confidence in the company overall to trust the salesperson the next time they suggest something to me.
Chris Beall (18:52):
Yes, and as management, we need to be careful about what we celebrate. Corey wrote a brilliant piece recently about trying to train himself away from celebrating luck, because after all, if something happens by luck, you're not really looking to repeat the run-up to that. That's just depending on luck, right? If hope is not a strategy, luck really sucks as a strategy, right? Rely on luck, ROL. I don't think so, so let's keep it more in the ROI, a little bit earlier in the alphabet, right?
It's an issue there, but there's another issue, which is the issue of celebration, so when a deal gets done and everybody can see it, at our company, everybody can see it because it's a DocuSign that goes around and it's been signed and then it gets posted and everybody can see it. We're virtual, so we don't have a bell to ring, and it could be in the middle of the night somewhere, right? We could do a deal in the evening here and in the UK, it's middle of the night. I'm not going to have Jerry Hill wake up to some idiot bell that wakes him up, right?
But we even have a tendency as a company, which I try to work against every day, to celebrate the salesperson: "Wow! Great deal, Jerry. Fabulous that you brought that one across the line." Well, what about customer success who ran the test drive? What about my research team, Jaidev Anand, who put together the fabulous list that was used in that test drive, because that was one where they needed data? What about the support staff that took a situation where four people showed up late for the test drive that we didn't even know about and within five minutes they were administered into the system, blowing the minds of whoever it is?
I can think of a case where actually the team from the big OEM showed up not intending to use ConnectAndSell at a test drive of their biggest reseller and they showed up and they watched what was going on, and this is a big OEM. We would all recognize this company. Very, very big. The leader of that group said, "What is this?" and the leader of the reseller said, "Well, this is ConnectAndSell. We're testing it today. It's called an 'intensive test drive.'" There was some listening that went on for three or four minutes and then the question, "Can we join in?"
Well, gosh, it was seven people and we didn't know who they were and the lists had already been divided up among everybody so there was no extra data. All the ice cream was gone. You'd scoop all you want, but there was none left in there. I asked our head of customer success to see if we could accommodate and he never says no to anything that's doable, but even he hesitated just for a moment, and then jumped in and I put it on the clock. Within seven minutes, everybody on that team was administered into the system, they had data to call on, and they were trained. That was better than the test drive, even though it was a different team and they weren't going to buy in the whole bit, that was better than it going well.
Who deserves that deal, which has turned into a fabulous relationship for both ConnectAndSell and for that customer? Well, it's not the rep. I'm the rep, I think. No, I think Jonti McLaren is officially the rep, but I was the one on the ground there that day. The tendency to celebrate the hero who was in the front without extending that celebration by name, not in some general way, but this person, this person, this person, if possible, that's a bad tendency, and it causes a feeling of less abundance among the people who are behind the scenes. Then it's harder for them to execute because they have to overcome the emotional barrier of being behind the scenes, even though by personality, they probably prefer to be behind the scenes, right, they still want recognition. Everybody wants recognition.
Susan Finch (23:09):
It's a little different than the embarrassment thing that we talked about in the previous episode. You don't forget those feelings, but you also don't forget the feeling of being invisible.
Chris Beall (23:20):
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Finch (23:22):
Nobody wants to be invisible. Even if you want to be subtle behind the scenes, you still want to be seen a little bit.
Chris Beall (23:29):
Yeah. This is one of the main reasons that I suggest that CEOs sell, but also that they get involved in product at a detailed level. Not so much that they're going to make a great contribution. Maybe they are a product person. I mean, that's my background. I'm a product person, engineer, and all that kind of stuff, so it's kind of legit when I do it, but that's not the only reason I do it. The other reason is the people on the front lines on product have a scary job, the scariest job, which is they do work that nobody knows it can be done or not and they're treated as though they're doing work that's simply a matter of doing the work.
The pandemic has certainly shown the general public that scarcity or abundance of products can have an effect on people’s emotions. Scarcity increases desire — whether you desperately need the product or not. Abundance decreases desire, because there’s plenty of what you might need in the future. This is true for the sales process too. When you know that you’re going to have another conversation with a prospect, then you can relax during the initial conversation. The tension will disappear from your voice, because you’re not pushing for the sale: you know you have another chance at a future date, and you can relax while you gather information and begin establishing trust with your prospect. There’s no need to hang on and desperately keep the call going; you set up an appointment for the next conversation, and then you end the call. In other words, you “make yourself scarce.” And right there, you’ve introduced the element of scarcity to your prospect’s emotions and, in doing so, increased their desire for more information about what your company offers.
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Join Chris and Susan Finch of Funnel Radio as they explore this yin-yang of scarcity and abundance, and then let you in on the biggest sin in sales. You won’t want to miss this!
This episode of Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by ConnectAndSell
ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: Susan Finch (00:22):
Hey everybody, you don't usually see me here. I'm Susan Finch. I'm usually the host on a couple of other shows, but I also help produce the Market Dominance Guys. And Chris Beall And I had this wonderful conversation that we did not hit the recording button on, about scarcity and abundance. And he said, "Hey, let's just make this into a podcast." So we're going to get going here. And we're going to be talking about scarcity and abundance and how it affects demand for what we offer in products and services. Now we know that scarcity falls into three distinctive categories, demand-induced, supply-induced, and structural. And demand-induced scarcity happens when the demand of a resource increases and the supply stays the same. And I think it's one of the most common versions of scarcity that we deal with in sales. And, Chris, I ain't even going to even ask you to talk about when it's totally manufactured, wholly unnecessary, because you told me that whiskey story yesterday, and we're going to dive into that. So, Chris Beall, enlightened us. Let's have this conversation.
Chris Beall (01:42):
Well, nothing is more enlightening than talking scarcity and whiskey at the same time. I bet there's a lot of folks who can relate to that at this very minute. And they're probably thinking, "I'm feeling a little scarcity on the whiskey front right now." And that story by the way, it is an example of brilliantly manufactured scarcity. I think everybody in sales, at the margin manufactures a little bit of scarcity, either you're busy and you can't meet with somebody. All the really good sellers are always busy, and they're busy, whether they're busy or not busy, right? Because folks feel better, quite frankly, when they feel like they're getting something that not everybody is getting. And so scarcity is correlated positively with desirability. And at the margin, of course, we all have got to use little clues in the environment to tell us what's desirable.
We may have calculated or thought through our situation. And we said, "Well, we really need a product that does X, Y, and Z. It's got to have this feature and this capabilities, performance characteristics and this cost." But really what we do is we go, "Well, wait a minute. You mean I can't have that one? I want that." I mean, that's actually what we do on the inside. And we do it all the time. We do it all the time in life. By the way, the whiskey story is about the Blanton's and it's for bourbon drinkers, for people who care about this. And what they've done is super smart. So every bottle of the Blanton's... They're these attractively-shaped bulbous bottles, they come in a bag, but it's not like a fru-fru bag, it's just a bag that looks nice.
And the cork is attached to a little figurine of a horse, and a jockey riding the horse. And when you first see it, it's just a horse and jockey. And then you look more closely and you see two things. One is, if you get a second bottle, the horse might be in a different position, one horses at a trot or a walk, and one of them's at a dead run, tail straight out behind it. And the jockey is in different positions, either sitting up a little bit or down the homestretch, head along the neck of the horse, whip hand up. So you can tell, I used to go to a lot of horse races when I was young. And so, they have these eight different horses because Blanton's... Oh, each one has a letter, B, L, A, N, T, O, N, S, eight letters with the N repeated of course.
So you get a bottle and you go, "Oh, I got the T. Well, you mean I could get all of them?" Immediately they're a scarcity because the other letters are more scarce. And when you're finally down to just one letter left, it's really scarce. And you scour the stores for this thing that, by the way, isn't usually there because they've also made it rare by not shipping very much. As a result of this, not only do they get us addicted to shopping for Blanton's, you don't have to be addicted to the damn Blanton's, you're just addicted to shopping for the stuff because you want it because you can't have it, even though there's a bottle of it right there, "That's fine. I have to buy it." I can't see the letter on it before I buy it. They put it intelligently in a box to make that information scarce and valuable.
And it's always behind lock and key. So you can't just go route it out of the box. They'll never sell you another bottle at the store if you do that. So you keep buying, and when you finally, it's like, "I've got them all, but one." You're going to have to buy eight on average to get one, whereas at the beginning you bought one to get one. So the scarcity naturally mathematically increases over time. And there you are, you become addicted to shopping. It's an example. I guess people talk about an abundance mindset as a good thing. And they're right. It is a good thing because it relaxes us in sales. When we know that we're going to have another conversation, we relax on this conversation. And being relaxed allows us to be more approachable. And when we're more approachable, we can build trust.
And we don't have that tightness in our voice that makes people think, "Oh, he's trying to do something to me." So in a mindset, as Gerhard Schwertner always says, is what makes sales really work. And the number one thing that makes sales not work as wanting the deal. As a salesperson, if you want the deal, you will generally fail. So salespeople, unfortunately, we incentivize them to want the deal, we tell them, "We'll pay you for the deal." There's a lot of luck and sales, especially toward the top of the funnel, there should be. That is, we can't know everything until we talk to somebody to learn something. And one of the things we're most likely going to learn is they don't need what we're offering. That's the standard outcome of a conversation, otherwise your market would be everybody.
And that's a dream that will never come true. Here we are incentivizing salespeople to put their fingers around the neck of the prospect and hold them tight because, "I really want this deal, whether the prospect needs my product or not." We do well in sales when we create an abundance mindset within ourselves, but a scarcity fact about us and our product. And it's that fine line that the great salespeople walk, where they're not very available, but they sure are relaxed.
Susan Finch (07:13):
I had an interesting experience, you and I, when we visited the other day, I mentioned that I had had an art gallery in Laguna Beach. And so, we sold fine art and paintings and one-of-a-kind things, which there's nothing more scarce than one-of-a-kind, other than one-of-a-kind not for sale. And we would also sell limited edition prints. And what's more limited than a limited edition is the artist's proof, which they're usually two or three of and that's it. And so, we would constantly go back to the same list and constantly say, "Oh, it's your one chance." And we would kill it. We would sell out of the entire edition before it was even on the press because people wanted, they didn't want to miss out. They wanted to say they had it. Or they had a certain number, "I want number seven. I want number one. I want number 45 because that's how old I am this year."
Whatever the reason, we would make it as scarce as possible for them to create that must-have, that very specific one thing, even though I had 500 others I could sell, the one that they wanted, that we created that they would want, they had to have.
Chris Beall (08:19):
Yes. And I'm going to jump onto one thing, which is sales. When you have a first conversation with somebody, you must be looking to end that conversation, because that makes you scarce. You become that limited edition. And if you're looking to extend the conversation forever, you're making yourself not scarce. You're saying, "I'm not very valuable. I have all the time in the world to talk to you." So that's an issue, especially for first conversations, because first impressions are very lasting. So when we teach people how to have a cold call that's effective, we teach them to say something, allow the other person to say something. We teach them to say, "I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" And then when they're told, "Yeah, go ahead," they don't say very much, and they end it.
It's like we would say, "I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all. And the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available?" That's the last thing you say. And when they come back and say, "Tell me more," you make yourself scarce. You say, "You know, we've learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this isn't a fair setting to talk about something this important. Are you a morning person? How's your Wednesday?" So that's scarcity that's being created right there, that's the O that you can't get in the Blanton's unless you buy another bottle, that's it right there.
Susan Finch (10:05):
You're turning something upside down as usual. Old ways of thinking, as usual, people were taught and we were taught to be polite. And you keep talking and you keep the conversation going and you keep dragging blah, blah, blah, and that's what it becomes, but you are just stabbing that and flipping it up and saying, "No."
Chris Beall (10:23):
Oh yeah, the pancake sizzles better on the side that's still wet. So you want to flip that sucker over so it starts cooking and making some noise. I always liked that image. I used to do a little short-order cooking when I was younger. There are few things more satisfying than the sound of that flipped pancake right when it hits the griddle. And really, we want to do that in sales. We want to flip the pancake over, stop just doing it on one side, take it over to the wet side, then let it do its thing over there. And when you're around great salespeople, you realize they're not just treating their time as precious because they're going to do something with it, they're treating themselves as precious as a resource, as a scarce and precious resource. And that mindset that I have an abundance of something that should be made scarce so that people will value it, that's where almost everybody in sales gets trapped.
They want to believe that they have an abundance of value, but they don't really believe it. And then they're told not to just, what do they call it? Spill their candy in the lobby or whatever they're told, but just this one time, it would feel so good just to spit it all out. Sales is hard because very little of what we do in sales as professionals is naturally intuitive. And for those for whom is, they're mystified that other people can't sell. It's like, "What do you mean? This is the easiest thing in the world," but that's because those people have the ability to see directly into somebody else's mind. So they're not confused by all the signals on the outside, they're seeing right in there. And they don't want to move forward most of the time because they know it's not good. Again, the scarcity runs the other way, right? The great prospect is fundamentally scarce as a fact of the world, let's discover who's a great prospect as fast as we can.
Susan Finch (12:26):
So many people want to have visits, the random ones, you're always talking about all the sales deals that you got, the meetings that you got and things in a bar, sitting next to somebody, random conversations with people. I have them when I go camping, random conversations, and suddenly I'm learning about things that I never knew about. And suddenly I'm identifying a prospect, which is stunning to me in that setting. People have a hard time of knowing when to stop talking, even in those casual situations, not even such a formal thing as the call.
Chris Beall (12:58):
Yeah. And one of the ways to handle that by the way, is to change the topic. So you're allowed to continue to talk, but you're no longer within that topic. And that's very safe. So, if you're at a bar with somebody and you've met them, you don't want to just walk away, but you also don't want to go too far down the road, whatever it is that you might do for them if there's something to do. Sometimes it's easy. Like I was pulled over by some sheriff's deputies when I was moving from the Santa Cruz Mountains to Reno. And as you probably know from talking to me, that move was strenuous to put it mildly. It required seven trips across the mountains because of the house that I was coming out of, which was a geodesic dome at the top of a road that was more than a quarter mile long and had two hairpins in and a cliff.
So trucks couldn't go up and down, I traveled all the time. It had to be done piecemeal. You couldn't even get a PODS up there. So, it was done with U-Boxes and a Ford Excursion, and that's it. And I had a trailer, an open trailer. I finally got it through my thick head that perhaps renting a trailer in Reno for the day and taking it over, loading stuff up and bringing it back for $19 was better than going one way for 200. Sometimes I'm not that smart. So the very last trip I've got the trailer and I've got the Excursion loaded to the gills, and the excursion doesn't exactly have what you would call a current license plate on it because it hadn't been driven for a couple of years. So I thought eventually I might get pulled over. Well, I did. Now the cops surrounded the vehicle, there were two cars, they had guns, real guns, long ones that fire really fast.
And they wanted to make sure that I wasn't what I looked like, which is some bad guy with tinted windows in a big car and a mysterious trailer going from A to B. So I had a nice conversation with them, I kept my hands on the wheel. Oh, by the way, the driver's side door of this car doesn't open. So it has that issue also. And I had a nice conversation with them. And here's the in the bar point, at least I didn't have to worry about finishing the conversation because they wanted to get on their way, but I did manage to interest one of the officers in his brother looking at ConnectAndSell for his business. So that's an example. That's abundance thinking, right? I thought, "This is fun. Here's some guys doing their job. They're not going to shoot me very much, I don't think. And they're not going to..."
Certainly I'm leaving California and it's only 25 miles to the border. So the path of least resistance is, "Let that guy go." But what can we do with the situation by backing up? And I think we should all do this often, but we'd get in a situation that's different, unfamiliar, maybe a little tight in some way, and we tend to think, "I need to approach the situation and deal with it."
Chris Beall (16:51):
But the most powerful thing to do is to step back from the situation and contextualize it. In context, was anything bad going to happen? No. It was going to cost me 15 minutes of my life. I show them some documents. I tell them the truth, but what else could have happened? Never know, everybody's connected to somebody. So they wanted to know what I do for a living, I told them what I do for a living. Next thing you know, there's the brother. We didn't close the deal by the way, but it was at least somebody to talk with. Well, that's the other thing, I think you need to really believe in the potential value of a further exploration of the meeting as we call it, with the human being that you're talking with, even in the case where there actually will be no business, ever.
And I think the true key to sales is, our funnels are shaped like funnels for a reason, there's more at the top, abundance, there's less at the bottom, scarcity, that's the high value prospect that we're actually engaged with. There's another funnel over here, which is the one that we're not sending anything through. Think of it as the phantom funnel, through which we are rejecting folks that we should have been having further conversations with because we failed to engage them. That's the funnel that we worked for our competitor. Our fiercest competitor accepts our gifts of all the people that we screwed up with that would have made great prospects, and they accept them gratefully. And again, don't even talk to us about them, right?
Susan Finch (18:23):
Right.
Chris Beall (18:24):
They don't come back and thank us, but they're in business because of us, because we blow it at the top of the funnel and let one out that should have stayed in, but we also keep too many in that should've gone out. Funnel is too much like this and not enough like that, right? But at the top, there's this abundance of people to talk to. And what we want to do is get to the right ones that are scarce, but we want to do it in a way that doesn't screw it up. So we have to have value for them to go down the funnel. We tend to think of it as value for us like, "It's closer to a deal." Well, the way to get away from that in our heads and get an abundance mindset is to say, "There is no deal." Let's consider the case where there's never going to be a deal, would it make sense for this person to have a meeting with me and learn something, or have a meeting with my experts and learn something?
If the answer is yes, we have to forget about the deal. And it's so hard to forget about the deal. We did a whole episode on it with the dog, the chain-link fence, and the piece of meat. The dog wants to go through the fence to get the meat, and the gate's sitting right over there, 10 feet to the right. This is in our heads, we get here, instead of backing up and seeing the whole picture and then asking the fundamental question which is, "What in this situation would be good for this other person that I can provide, that I have an abundance of?" And when we're the seller, we have an abundance of information and expertise, so let's offer that.
Susan Finch (20:00):
I think that's something that is so underrated. I talk about this when I talk about how do you make your guests look good on a podcast. You and I have talked about this. When we help people look better to their peers, look better to their own prospects because they have information, knowledge and confidence on a topic, we've given them a gift. And they will remember that. And even if they don't need us, they trust us now because we made them look good, and they are willing to say, "Hey friend, I know this guy that has this product, not for us, but it'd be a perfect match for you because they are great to deal with."
Chris Beall (20:40):
Yes. And the flip is that the emotion we all remember from childhood the most is embarrassment.
Susan Finch (20:46):
Yes.
Chris Beall (20:47):
We never forget it, and we never forgive it. And it is the unforgivable sin in businesses to embarrass somebody in front of their peers. And it's done all the time, but Jan Blunt always says that whoever maintains their emotional control the longest ends up winning in sales. And it's a breakdown of emotional control I believe that causes us to embarrass somebody else, especially in front of somebody else. We signal that we're not going to do this when we say something embarrassing about ourselves, that's actually a strong signal that we will not embarrass somebody else. And that's why it's a great idea, early in any conversation, to go ahead and make a little fun of yourself, whether it was the fact that you're a little late for the meeting or whatever it is, your coffee's cold, your hair doesn't look good, you're on the outs with your mom because you did whatever, whatever it is.
If you throw yourself under the embarrassment bus a little bit early, you're strongly signaling, "I will not embarrass you on purpose. I'm adopting this position of being the first to be embarrassed. And I've taken care of that. Now we're done with that subject." And then if the other person trusts you, they will say something that would have otherwise been embarrassing about themselves. And that's the surest sign of trust from another person, is when they express vulnerability through the most tender of emotions. I mean tender like a blister, not tender like, "I feel so good in my heart." The tenderest emotion is the one that hurts the most, and embarrassment is the one that hurts the most.
Susan Finch (22:30):
It does. I really hadn't thought about that much, but my most painful memories with relationships, that's what it always is about.
Chris Beall (22:38):
Yeah. We never forget them.
Susan Finch (22:40):
You don't. And you're right though, don't forgive. I can say, "Yes, I forgive you for that." Or most of the time though, I don't even address it, because I don't want to keep talking about that because I can't believe he did that to me.
Chris Beall (22:53):
Yes. The elephant in the room that people talk about is always the elephant in the room because of its potential for embarrassment. That's just why it is. Among strangers, it's very tricky because what we're doing is, in sales, we're always starting as strangers. And now we're making a decision, which is, "Am I going to trust this person with my feelings about myself? That's really what I'm going to do at some point." That's the trust. When we talk about trust, we're not really talking about, "I'm going to trust this person not to screw up my career." We pretty much think that we can defend ourselves there reasonably well. Now that's what we're afraid of, that's the death at the end of the long march is our career is ruined, but that's not really what we're concerned about. What we're concerned about is more immediate, which is, "Am I going to be treated with respect?"
That's the key. And since we as the buyer are not the expert, the seller is in a great position to not respect us. That asymmetry is where sales starts. So how does the seller manage to climb down from that pedestal without giving up their expertise? And that's the delicacy of sales, is being able to do it. The best way to do it, I think, is leave yourself professionally up there on the pedestal and take yourself somewhere else personally, because we all have peccadilloes, we all have failings, we all know what they are, and we may as well have a little fun with them.
Susan Finch (24:26):
I find it almost freeing and powerful, because the more we share that... We all have a box of those that we can whip out when we want to. When we want to be vulnerable, we all have them and we just have to choose which one fits the situation best. But I also find though, there's actually a healing thing that happens with that. The more I do it, the more I can laugh at it constantly, and enjoy watching somebody else laugh at that in me. And it actually brings me more joy than it did the pain, and it undoes a lot of that.
Chris Beall (25:00):
Yeah. And having that box is so critical. And you get that through experience and legitimate self-examination. Like legitimate self-examination, salespeople are encouraged, never to look inside themselves for something that's imperfect unless they intend to fix it. And yet, it's the ones you don't fix that are going to do the most good. And when you can talk about them and laugh about them and be that person that someone is comfortable with quickly, and you can tell. I had a conversation today with somebody that I found to be the smartest, most sophisticated people that I've talked to in a long time. But what he said very early is, he told me something very early, two or three minutes in, which was reasonably sensitive and private. And then he stopped himself and he said, "You're just really easy to talk to." Well, the reason for that is I'm sure... I can't even remember what it is, I can go back to the recording.
I hope that I said something both true and vulnerable, because if you start there, you are actually saying, "It's okay for us to be ourselves. And until we're ourselves, how are we going to explore the dangerous territory called the business-to-business transaction?" It's so dangerous. It's such a bomb that's ready to go off. It's like, "How do we get there? How do we approach it? What is the carpet that we can put down that keeps the landmine from going off under our feet?" And I think it's vulnerability that leads to trust, [crosstalk 00:26:34] of sincere expressions of vulnerability. And it's taught to some degree, but man, it's hard to do if you have a feeling of abundance inside.
Susan Finch (26:45):
In the concert, Tina goes around the edges, and you're just trying to protect yourself and protect everything that you have and hold dear and are afraid of losing, that you never had in the first place.
Chris Beall (26:55):
Right. In fact, you're compromising it by trying to protect it.
Can your prospects smell your “commission breath”? Is your eagerness to set the appointment or reach for the deal keeping you from gleaning the information you need from your conversations with prospects?
There is a danger that comes with expertise. When you are a true beginner, your mind is empty and open. You are willing to learn and consider all pieces of information. As you develop expertise, however, your mind naturally becomes more closed. As a salesperson, you might have a preconceived notion that you know where a cold call is heading. Rejectionville again! And this makes you less open to discovering new information, less likely to hear your prospect’s confession about his business or job or a problem you might solve. Your expectations are not immediately met, and you get that sense of doom that this call is a waste of your time. What can save you from that out-on-a-ledge, sales-related fear of impending doom? Shoshin, a Zen Buddhism concept that means “beginner’s mind.” Chris, Corey, and Jake Housdon discuss how employing the curiosity mindset of Shoshin (“I know nothing. Tell me about your experience.”) allows you to take ahold of your emotions, lead your prospect back into having a conversation, and put you back on the road to discovery.
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About Our Guest Jake Housdon is CEO and co-founder of SDR League, the world's first esports league for salespeople.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: Announcer 2 (00:27):
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro. Can your prospect smell your commission breath? Is your eagerness to set the appointment or reach for the deal keeping you from gleaning the information you need from your conversations with prospects? There's a danger that comes with expertise. When you're a true beginner, your mind is empty and open. You're willing to consider all pieces of information. As you develop expertise, however, your mind naturally becomes more closed. As a salesperson, you might have a preconceived notion that you know where a cold call is heading. Rejectionville again. And this makes you less open to discovering new information, less likely to hear your prospect's confession about his business or job or a problem you might be able to solve. Your expectations are not immediately met. And you get that sense of doom that this call is a waste of your time.
What can save you from that out on a ledge sales-related fear of impending doom? Shoshin, a Zen Buddhism concept that means beginner's mind. Chris, Corey, and Jake Housdon discuss how employing the curiosity mindset of Shoshin, which means, "I know nothing, tell me about your experience." Allows you to take a hold of your emotions, lead your prospect back into having a conversation and put you back on the road to discovery, join Corey and Chris and their guest today. Jake Housdon, who's back for a second episode. He's the CEO and co-founder of SDR League. The world's first eSports league for salespeople. So let's get going with Corey, Chris, and Jake. Take it away, guys.
Chris Beall (02:09):
Yeah, Jeb Blount always... He always says that the biggest problem that we all have in sales, and he wrote a whole book about it, Sales EQ, is that we don't understand our own emotions and therefore have ways of... I'll call it managing, but I don't mean it in a controlling kind of sense. The ability to remain detached while executing precisely and with energy. And it's a tricky business in everything, though. I mean, I'm an old rock climber mountaineer. And how can you be detached, especially doing some of the games that I used to do, which did not involve a rope. I'm not saying I'm a smart person, right? I'm just telling you the truth. Corey, you know the Praying Monk, right?
Corey Frank (02:51):
Yes.
Chris Beall (02:51):
On Camel's Head, on Camelback Mountain. And I remember having this experience once at about 6:30 in the morning where I was free soloing. A very easy climb. I had to go up to the top of the Praying Monk, but it's got a lot of exposure. Exposure means how far you fall before you hit. And the exposure on that climb, it looks like you're going to fall into somebody's swimming pool, about 600 feet below you on the first move. So you come out of this little cave, tunnel, and you traverse right onto the face, and then you kind of get yourself situated, and it's a really easy climb. It's really easy. It's just a long ways down. And to do it, unroped at dawn, when the sun is just taking up as a kind of lonely and kind of special feeling, right? So I was up there doing that one Saturday morning, and I get up about halfway up the climb, and there's a little old mudstone flake there. That's got a hole in it, and you can move it with your finger.
You can actually pull on it, and it'll wiggle, and you're going to have to actually use it, not use it at the same time. So it's a very delicate sort of operation. And suddenly, I hear a noise. Totally unexpected noise, an industrial noise, and it's getting louder and louder and louder. What did I need to do? It's just like what happens when you are afraid that this person that you're talking with in a discovery conversation isn't the right customer. They're almost right, but. Nah, they're not going to go with us, right? What do you do? How do you not panic?
So that was the skill that, I was given the good fortune of learning, through a game that is too stupid to play it. Nobody should play it, which is this particular thing. And by the way, the way the story ends is fine. Obviously, I'm reasonably with us, or this is some real high-tech talk about ghosting. They talked about ghosting people now. We could be ghosting me right now. But I finally get enough courage, and I calmed down, and I get enough courage and turn my head, and there's the Goodyear Blimp, Colombia, at eye level about a hundred feet away. It's a bunch of people having a breakfast tour looking at "Look, human flies." Right? So my hands are sweating right now, by the way, as I try to emotionally detach from that little piece of PTSD.
Corey Frank (04:52):
But you know, Chris, what I think you've outlined there is the perfect archetype example of what we have as the four legs of that barstool, where you had that fear. Should I do this free solo on the Praying Monk? And then you had to cross that bridge going from fear to trust. I trust that I'm competent enough to get there. And then I'm curious enough if this foothold can maybe take me up a different pathway or a different trench here. And then finally, once you have that curiosity, you had to commit, and some folks won't get past that fear, but you've got all the way to all four of the little legs of that barstool there. In that one story certainly.
Chris Beall (05:32):
Yeah. Commit and take action because it's real easy to stand there forever, but that doesn't get the job done either way. But I think sales has that level of emotion associated with it. And Jeb's book, Objections, in which he tells us that our emotional reaction to an objection is that it's a rejection. And that our fear of rejection is worse than our fear of death. We react in sales situations in ways that are more compelling emotionally than a free solo. I'll be kind to the rest of them. This was not true of me. A free solo artist is actually experiencing a less compelling emotion, which is merely the fear of falling to their death. Whereas the salesperson, in discovery and into cold calls, especially, faces the fear of rejection over and over and over. And each objection is mapped onto a rejection.
And Jeb teaches us a word that he uses, which is the ledge, right? It comes right out of climbing. He's not even a climber. He's a horseman. They don't even have ledges. They have saddles, right? But he used the correct term, which is a ledge. You go to your ledge. Mine, when you hang out with me, you'll know what my ledge and in short order.
So fires are in Oregon. I can't drive from Reno, where I've got all this work going on with my house and moving and all that back to Washington because Oregon's on fire. What did I say when I was talking to Helen about it? Fantastic. As soon as I found out, that's what I said. Fantastic. Because that's my ledge. You tell me that "I don't know Chris, our business doesn't work like that." Fantastic. And it calms me down. It's my ledge. Everybody needs one, no matter how experienced you are, no matter how many times you've been up that route. Something funny that could... Your Blimp Columbia could sneak up on you, and you need to look at it and say, "Fantastic." And then go to your curiosity.
Jake Housdon (07:22):
A 100 Percent.
Chris Beall (07:23):
So where do you go from your ledge? Always go to your curiosity. It's the safest place in the conversation for you.
Jake Housdon (07:28):
That makes a lot of sense. And it reminds me of some neuroscience work that was done by this guy Moe something? He used to be the head of Google X, and then his son passed away, and it was devastating. And he took a sabbatical to try to understand from an engineer's perspective how he could create happiness and solving for happiness. He went on this mission, and Google let him do it and everything. And one of the things he figured out is that he said happiness is, as far as he can tell, the feeling of having your expectations met. But he said that that doesn't mean that the solution is to set low expectations for yourself. It's what do you do when your expectations are not met. Anyway, what he does practically, what he prescribes to people, is that what goes on is when your expectations aren't met the middle of your brain, where there's incessant thinking, that part starts to really light up and do all kinds of bad things.
And that's where you get into the downward spiral of emotion. Imagine you missed a bus. And then you're like, "Oh, I missed the bus." And then you're like, "No, now I'm going to be late for that thing. And then that meeting, it's not going to go well, and this, and I'm not going to make my quota, and I'm not going to..." Suddenly the world is upside down, and the best way he said to practically overcome that. And maybe the ledge just reminded me of this, but it's to shift your thinking towards, "Okay, well, what would I do next time to prevent that from happening?" And the reason for that is it moves the neural activity from the middle of your brain to a different part, so it literally stops that downward spiral. So that reminds me of how you are saying to go to curiosity right away, meant to kind of create it with a positive feeling and then go curious, because saying, how would I stop this from happening again? It's kind of a curiosity type of function. So, that certainly resonates deeply with me there.
Corey Frank (09:09):
In essence, Jake, it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing with the SDR League. So it'd be a good segue way into this veneer that you're putting on top of the midbrain, where there's potential rejection, and dejection, and disappointment, and struggle in that midbrain. Where I'm going to perseverate over an issue or a challenge or my numbers. And now I go more into the neocortex or even the opposite end, even more to the primitive side of the brain, which is a little bit more competitive, a little bit more fun, a little bit more [Crosstalk 00:09:40]. And let's talk a little bit about that. Was that part of the intent? Is how do you kind of put this velvet rope around what our profession really is and kind of come at it from a different angle.
Jake Housdon (09:50):
Exactly. And I think to touch on your point there. All those things, it's all part of the game at the end of the day. And that's what us seasoned folks, who have done this for a while, would say, right? We get punched in the nose. We get rejected, kicked in the teeth, as Ryan likes to say. It's all part of the game. We learned to love that because it means that we're one step closer to the great thing that we want happening. Right? So I think that isn't necessarily the inspiration for creating the entire thing. But that's something that's definitely at play is that learn to love the game, learn to love the process itself, learn to love the L, not just the W. That's how you can get yourself to be formidably defending against the downward spiral and negative emotion. That's when you're like, "Fantastic!" As Chris said. When he can't drive to where he wants to go, right?
So from what I've seen in terms of hiring as well, let's just say at the top of the funnel, on the sales development side, I love people who love the game. If you love the game, if you're passionate about the game, that's great. We're going to be able to figure this thing out here. So, yeah, I think that's a huge part of it. We also want to really elevate our profession, and sports is, think of children watching athletes and becoming inspired and all of those things. I think that none of this stuff is public-facing right now. It all takes place in the best orgs at Connect And Sell, among the team talking to each other at Youngblood Works, that culture exists, but it can't be shown to people that aren't a part of it necessarily either. So that's something near and dear to my heart as well.
Chris Beall (11:20):
Yeah. I love what you're doing with SDR League. It's a crazy idea. Mark Cuban is the big exponent of eSports, and I'm going to talk to him about what you guys are doing because he's going to love this. I mean, the idea of making an eSport, you got to get it up and running because Mark's not a speculative guy, but it's really something. What could be a better competitive activity than cold calling?
Jake Housdon (11:41):
That's it. Yeah. A hundred percent Chris and not to interrupt you there, finish your thought, just to interject. I see eSports becomes bSports, right? That's the new category that we're ushering in here. It's business as a sport, and absolutely to your point sales development, top of the funnel is the most high adrenaline, fun, fast-paced, action-packed stuff to watch, so.
Chris Beall (12:02):
People like to watch sports that involve violent collisions between talented human beings. In this case, there's a bunch of them. I mean, it's like, there's the two competitors there's what's happens on the call, every cold call's a train wreck. What a fabulous, fabulous idea. I love what Ryan is doing, Ryan right. Sort is out there on Twitch right now. Twitch is the video gamers' eSports channel. He has a channel out there. The channel has grown crazy already. And I just can't imagine a cooler thing than that. And it is true, Corey, by the way, you go to both the more primitive part of the brain, but also you go to a very cerebral, very cortex part of the brain and very neocortex part, right? I mean, the smartest people I've ever known in sport are left tackles, played football. Yeah. Those are by far the smartest people are so smart- [crosstalk 00:12:48].
Corey Frank (12:47):
Scores are off the charts. Exactly right.
Chris Beall (12:49):
Yeah. And they're into technique. And at a level of nuance and detail into the biomechanics. And then into the psychology, there's a guessing game going on. There's all this stuff happening in the mind. This person's brand is attached to a big body. You don't get to play left tackle if you're really small, I think. Because all the quarterbacks end up dead at that point, but it's a fascinating thing. And I really think that one of the things we're seeing is that thinking and executing in real-time, now, have become the keys to success. Business used to be built around planning. You'd have this annual plan. Now I've always rejected the annual plan. I always thought the annual plan was an idiot's exercise. Why would the fact that the earth shows up relative to the distance of stars, and approximately the same alignment as some time it did before? Why would that be the natural unit of planning?
We're not farming. We don't have seasons that are meaningful in our business in that sense. Not very many of them anyway. We'd make them up. "Oh my God. Q4, Q4, Q4. Let's close all the deals. What? That's just nuttiness. When you think about it, businesses need stuff all the time. And we're going to plan our investment, our innovation investment out through the whole year. Well, I've got about six weeks of visibility into innovation investments that connect itself. And I remember when I joined the company, I was VP of Products. And I joined five minutes after meeting a founder, Shawn McLaren. And I just told him I was working for him. And he said, "Well, you know, what if I'm not hiring?" And I still "Look, Sean, it's a free country. I can work for whomever I want, and that's entirely up to you if you decide to pay me. I highly recommend you do because it stabilizes the employer-employee relationship, but do what you want. It's up to you. I'm committing, and you can have your way with me if you want."
So first day on the job. I go talk to the engineers, then they asked me, "So you're the product guy, how do you do roadmap?" I said, "Road map? I don't do a roadmap." Whoa. I grew three heads. I started vomiting blood, as far as they were concerned, flying around the room with wings. It's like, "Who is this creature? A product guy who doesn't do road map." That's like a racehorse with no legs. Doesn't make any sense. And the fact is, a deep road map is an assertion of knowledge that you do not confidently have. And it's an expression of your lack of curiosity. You're saying, "I don't care. I don't care what we learn."
Jake Housdon (15:10):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (15:10):
It's the business equivalent of free-soloing then, is what you're doing?
Chris Beall (15:14):
Yeah. And you got to be good or else you die.
Corey Frank (15:17):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (15:18):
You got to be good, anyway. So what?
Jake Housdon (15:20):
That also, Chris, then is something that stops everyone from being able to follow the constraints so closely because they lay out this annual plan, and then they get a bunch of important eyeballs at the board level on it and everything else. And then it just becomes, "Did you do the plan really?" Not about anything else, really, right?
Chris Beall (15:38):
Why was it annual? Why was this annual? Well, we only have four board meetings a year. Oh, okay. So the board meeting's purpose is to serve for the company, or is there some other purpose that we should be trying to detect here? Why don't we have a quarterly plan? Why don't we have a one-month plan? It's been a bother to me for a long time, and I don't do it. It's the same reason I don't hold meetings, by the way. I think standing meetings, fixed meetings on the calendar are exactly the same thing. They're an expression of your lack of interest in the future.
Jake Housdon (16:07):
Very interesting.
Corey Frank (16:08):
Well, I like the concept certainly, and Chrisy and I have spoken about compensation and how these antiquated compensation plans, unfortunately, continue to drive the behavioral of end of month, end of quarter, end of year, end bonuses and stifles that curiosity, I'm curious in the first week or two of a quarter, but, then when this impending doom of a quota creeps up on me, that I have this sort of Damocles staring at me at the end of a quarter, then I'd better stifle that curiosity and go more towards volume. And I don't have time to ask the type of discovery I need to be to be curious. Because I just need to find out if you're going to buy or not, Chris. And how compensation plans play a part in that and that perhaps even the type of people we're hiring and indoctrinate and like a virus spread from one sales organization to another to another.
So it's as almost as if we have to have a Lord of the Flies-type of Island situation, where people who are pristine, virgin, pure in the black art of quota creation, who have never succumbed to an ISPC or a board meeting or account review where they feel pressured to hit a quota at the month, corresponding to their commission and just let them discover, let them be curious and to see if there's a different type of currency that can be created that is inconsistent with kind of the forms we're having today.
Chris Beall (17:31):
I think we came up with a partial cure. And the partial cure it would be to have a new role, which is discoverer.
Jake Housdon (17:40):
I was just thinking that, discoverer.
Chris Beall (17:43):
And the discoverer role can be comped as the discoverer role should be comped, which is what did we learn? And if the main thing we were to try to learn is the business truth of the other person and their beliefs. And then we were to say, "Here's the roadmap that we're hoping for in this relationship. We think the timing is going to work like this, but we think their belief, we hope evolve, that's the next step." Next steps being actions are ridiculous sales. The next step that counts is if that person can believe something new, people buy because of what they believe. They don't buy because you took an action. You can take actions all day long, do nothing. But when they believe it, whether you took an action or not, they believe the next thing. You've made progress.
So if we were to put together with our discoverer a belief map, it says, where are we trying to go belief wise. And a business map. Which is what's the business truth that they're living in internally and externally, and then comp that correctly. Then our AEs could be commissioned for being the order takers that they love have to be. I mean, consultants, sorry. I didn't mean order takers. I meant trusted advisors. Actually, they could be trusted advisors that they would be fine with that. They're just being trusted later in the process because getting to transaction itself is hard. Transacting is the problem with closing emotionally, is your emotional stance that you need to have is, "I am willing to sacrifice this relationship for the deal." That's actually what you have to do to be a closer. This is why sales is so hard is you build relationships, and you're willing to sacrifice them for the deal because your time is essentially all you got, and you can't be spending your time on stuff that isn't going to turn into a deal.
Chris Beall (20:13):
But that's not to say as organizations, we couldn't have a role whose job is to learn the truth, and we could build our forecasts off the truth rather than building our forecast off of this somebody who'd need to say, "Well, I can backfill that with this other one." How many times have you heard that Corey, "Oh yeah, well, that one's going to slip, but I can backfill up by pulling this other one in." And if you could pull either one in, why didn't you pull it in?
Corey Frank (20:13):
That's right, yeah.
Jake Housdon (20:36):
It takes me to a place of thinking about just the puzzle of motivation, though. And I do think that discoverer would be fantastic. But then, if we start to try to measure the truth, that's where we get into all kinds of issues. It's like, how do we truly measure that truth? And if we compensate based on finding the truth. Then we get into all the same wrong behaviors at the discoverer level.
It's almost as if they need to be non-variable in terms of their comp. We're all alert. There's a lot of salespeople that are allergic to that thought. But I think there's those studies out there. I can't remember the exact name, but it's the one where people were given financial incentives and asked to do a task where they had to get this candle to stick to the wall with thumbtacks and a little case, a match case. And as they escalated the amount of money they gave people, they got worse and worse at that task because it caused... And you guys seem to know a lot about how the brain works. So feel free to fill in which parts were going on, but it caused the wrong parts to sort of supersede the others. So I think the discoverer would have to be almost just paid for their job
Chris Beall (21:37):
And measured objectively by somebody else, not themselves. This is another bizarre notion that we have in sales that the measurer and the actor are the same person. You mentioned doing that in manufacturing, but let's not actually measure what the machine is doing and check it just to see if it's calibrated. Let's just assume that it's good and then use its output as the measurement. That'd be nutty. We'd never be able to build anything.
Corey Frank (22:00):
Yeah. Well, I think either. As Jake, I think, as you had said, at the outset of this conversation, because we're dealing with variable, such as a human being who uses three parts of their brain, who is in a profession that has cascaded for living on the edge of society, bleeding people dry, right? You put all these conflating elements together, and certainly, you have too many variables in a system. As Chris had said many times in this podcast. So how is a new SDR or a new sales rep, or you let alone a new Sales Manager VP who, is thrust into an opportunity and environment where they have one quarter at the average tenure of a VP is what a 180 days, so to speak, right? It's maybe a year before they start feeling that heat. And they're thrust in that environment where there's way too many variables in a system.
And there is no go-to to have each of these variables weighed from a different atomic weight perspective to say, "What should I focus on?" And so invariably, I go to the old standbys, the old reliables, which is how many conversations, not that I'm having, but how big is my pipeline and how many demos have I done? And I think that lends itself to part of this confusion, this mass chaos, why you see one sales organization selling relatively the same type of product to the same type of TAM, doing completely different results than another sales organization, competing sales organization with the same type of TAM and relatively the same type of products.
Jake Housdon (23:23):
And I had heard you guys talk about Mr. Monkey and that whole idea. And when you depict it like that, Corey, it sounds like it's pretty easy for people to just default to being Mr. Monkey because there's so much chaos to navigate through and everything, right? It's this meta-thinking is required above everything, and it's really missing. And it's, I guess, the role of leadership to ensure that it's part of the culture. And we talked culture very early on and how it's a cultural thing and to get the human beings to feel reasonably good enough while you just hone in on one specific bottleneck at a time. And it comes down to then, I think, culture design. And that's kind of a weird thing for people because everyone thinks that culture needs to be this organic sort of thing otherwise, "no that's skin posts, that's sterile. That's not real culture." And all that.
But if you don't design something intentionally then, you can't expect to be able to control any of the results that it produces. So I think that maybe what's really important as a takeaway here is that you need to design the right culture in your organization that defends you against all of these problematic ways of thinking that people fall into based on all the things that we've been talking about, basically.
Corey Frank (24:31):
Well, Chris, in one of your earlier episodes, we talked about the culture at ConnectAndSell, and that the goal, and I'm going to butcher the exact phrase you use, right. Is to "Fail spectacularly at least once a day." I think you had explained. So that's number one. And I'm looking at my notes from a brief conversation, Chris, that I had with you a couple of days ago. And you said a phrase that I liked that ties in Jake. What you're saying is, "To be ruthlessly curious." And I really liked that Chris, you see all these nuggets just come out, and you'd just of kind of capture them where you can. But I think that that culture of what you are doing with the SDR League and what folks like James Thornberg, the grandfather of kind of the... I would consider him kind of the Uncle Rico.
If you remember your Napoleon dynamite. Uncle Rico always had those video cameras. He's had the video cameras set up as he's practicing his throws, trying to go back to circa 1988. And so James, if you're listening, I think you really are the Uncle Rico of always adjusting, always trying to tweak your passing game, and certainly, what Ryan's doing there too. But that curiosity of what that self-introspection, and if you can have a culture like that. Chris had said even a connected cell where you're able to fail miserably at least once a day. I think that will engender itself into an organization where people will be more curious that their curiosity will trickle down internally in the business to externally to the type of people that you're talking to and your prospects.
Chris Beall (25:58):
Yeah. We want to fail enthusiastically. And you know, I've told everybody I've ever hired that one of the things that we do here, wherever here happened to be, is we are wrong enthusiastically every day. And that is a real key because we're wrong by nature. We're almost always wrong. I mean, how often do you look back and say, "Oh, I was so brilliant 20 years ago. I had it all." You look back, and you go, "I've learned a few things." So relative to some future state, you're always wrong. I'm going to jump on this culture thing for a minute. So, Corey, this is something that I actually think you can look at it at Youngblood Works in a totally new way, and you can change the whole world with this, and here's how cultural transformation is the hardest thing we can ever do. So I have the luxury of doing startups.
I mean, ConnectAndSell wasn't a startup for me, but it's been really close. But before that, almost all startups, except a couple of stints at GXS, where I was a senior vice president of new product innovation. I predicted I would last 364 days there during the interview. I actually told the CEO he would fire me on day 364. And I was right to the day. I can tell you I was right to the day. So I don't do very well in those organizations. Not because I don't get anything done. I think I built five products for them, a great team. The late Suli Ding was leading this awesome team and built products. We bought a company forum, all these great things, but the fact is, I pushed continuously for cultural change, and in particular, for getting rid of parasites. And parasites are the big problem with companies are organisms full of value.
And there will be other organisms that want to feed on them while they're still alive. Those are called parasites. And when you're a company, they will try to feed on you. And they come in through your open mouth, just like many parasites do they come in through your food supply, which for companies is their new hires. And you'll get one of these parasites in. And I've mentioned on this podcast, how do you know they're a parasite. They say in the interview, "I'm a team player." As soon as somebody says, I'm a team player in an interview. Now I've let the cat out of the bag. And that, by the way, as a reference to the cat o' nine tails, not the kind of cat that people pet, but in any case, now let them know. So thank God the parasites will. They won't change their stripes too fast.
But when somebody is joining a company and their actual intention is to suck value out of it while appearing to provide value, which is a perfectly rational thing to do. But if that's their intention, they're going to say during the interview process, I'm a team player, and they're saying it because they're not. They're a parasite. And here's the thing about Youngblood Works. You can build a parasite-free organization, and you have, and you can grow it parasite-free forever. And therefore, you can offer as your primary product a different culture from the identification of the market through the delivery of the customer who is ready to buy now. So if you were to go to the psychology department, not just the business department, and don't just take future CEOs into finishing school, which you're doing now as cold callers and folks who have the ability to hold a conversation with an invisible stranger, the scariest thing in the world that we do.
But you tap another department, the psychology department. And bring in these therapist types who are highly curious and have a feel for people, and then teach them enough business that they can hold a product-free discovery call using Chris Bennet's techniques. I go talk to Chris Bennett, another good Canadian, just north of where I live in Port Townsend. He's just across the water there, bring his techniques in and productize that you will actually solve the cultural problem where it's causing the most pain. And that's the problem that needs to be solved. And that can be your ultimate product.
Corey Frank (29:36):
And that's the export. That is, in essence, the inherent product, not necessarily the demos. It's delivering people that may be recruited or move to these organizations that already have their foundational elements based off curiosity and non-parasitic behavior.
Jake Housdon (29:53):
It's like the- [crosstalk 00:29:54].
Chris Beall (29:54):
It's like a cultural graph. It's a graph, right?
Jake Housdon (29:55):
... yeah, it's the immune system.
Chris Beall (29:56):
Think of it as you're the branch that's going to be added to their tree because they got a lemon tree. It's producing these sour lemons. They need some apples. Youngblood Works could be the graph that produces the apples they need. So then they can figure out how to turn some of their lemon branches into, I don't know, at least plums or something.
Jake Housdon (30:13):
It reminds me of the gut. And the flora and fauna in the human gut and how important that is. And when that's out of whack, it affects everything else. And the ways that so far people seem to be able to improve it is by, like you said, grafting from a healthy gut, or it's actually pretty disgusting. They actually take feces and put them in pills, and get people to swallow them. And then that stuff gets down there and kind of helps to correct things. But hopefully, these discoverers, I don't know how to tie all that together, but.
Chris Beall (30:42):
That was a good one, Jake. So this is an adult program. So I can actually say you've now come up with the exact counter to, "Eat shit and die."
Corey Frank (30:49):
Or eat shit in fives. Either one.
Jake Housdon (30:55):
Eat shit and live.
Chris Beall (30:55):
Yeah. So don't go from curious to furious, eat shit and live.
Corey Frank (31:01):
I love it. I love it.
Jake Housdon (31:02):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (31:04):
Chris and Jake, right? I've we say this to all the guests, right? Is that I'm an active participant in these podcasts. I have this nefarious guy some sort of co-host or moderator, but my notes are full of all these. So I was just like from sure. A lot of our listeners take Chris's ideas and claim them as my own as frequently as I can. So that's just golden stuff, Chris. So, keeps me in the style I've become accustomed to, to be smarter than I am when I stand tall in front of my board, in front of my advisors, and say, "You know, I got an idea. I think we should probably focus on the psychology students that we have at the university here."
And I will be brilliant, and I will get all the accolades and contrary if they shoot that idea down, I say, well, that came from my Podcast partner, so. Either way, that's a benefit. So, and I will do the same with you, Jake shamelessly, with all the information that you've given us here today. So with that, we'd love to have you out again, Jake, as we continue to follow the SDR League and we'd go up the ranks. I don't know if there's a senior tour for guys like Chris and I. Like I said, something to think about versus the game is so fast for us old-timers here, but we just love what you're doing. And can't thank you enough for jumping on today with all the great information and any way we can support it here on the Market Dominance Guys, a score check. Chris and I would start every day with kind of looking at the box scores, certainly. And the highlights, we will certainly, keep that open for you.
Jake Housdon (32:31):
Love it. Well, someone's got to come in and teach us, the young folks, how it's done right. So I think we could definitely reach some sort of a cage match. Who'd be your choice opponent, Corey or Chris?
Chris Beall (32:44):
Oh.
Corey Frank (32:44):
That's a good one.
Chris Beall (32:45):
You know who mine would be because he's so good. He's so cerebral. I always say if you can't do anything else, bringing a lawyer, bring an Anthony Iannarino.
Corey Frank (32:54):
There you go. Yeah. I'd fight Shatner. William Shatner. That's who I'd go head-to-head with, so.
Jake Housdon (33:00):
I love it.
Corey Frank (33:03):
Another could be- [crosstalk 00:33:04]
Chris Beall (33:04):
Shatner, he'd have a hundred percent close rate.
Corey Frank (33:06):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (33:08):
Nobody knows how that voice works, but whatever it is, I watched an ad for him. It's so funny you bring that up. You don't watch very much TV. But I'm stuck in a hotel here for a couple of days, months. I have nothing to learn in the hotel. Okay, I'm curious. So he's on with an ad for the system that cleans your sleeping apparatus, which then they come up with some name for it, your sleeping equipment, some euphemism for a C-PAP, which apparently sounds like a really bad thing. And he talks about that, and I'm listening to his voice just thinking, "You know, this guy should be cold calling."
Corey Frank (33:40):
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why you got to go big, so.
Jake Housdon (33:45):
Well, we'll have to give him a shout and see if he wants to take you on, Corey.
Corey Frank (33:48):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (33:49):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (33:49):
When you do have the head-to-head Jake, when you go head-to-head with Ryan, do you play the Canadian anthem? And then you play the USA anthem. Is that how it goes? Just like it is with the baseball?
Jake Housdon (33:58):
Yeah. Well, I think it depends who's the champion and who's the challenge here in terms of which anthem goes first, but.
Corey Frank (34:03):
Okay. Thanks again, Jake, for what you do for our profession. It's admirable. We love it. And we'll support you anytime. So it's been another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the Sage of sales, Chris Beall. Until next time, have a great day.
The theory of constraints dominates the world of business, and yet it tends to be ignored by almost everybody in business for a pretty simple reason: it's politically unpalatable. The theory of constraints says your business is a system, and every system has one and only one constraint.
And that's the only thing you should be working on right now: understanding that constraint, characterizing it, coming up with an investment thesis, making the investment, or observing the results of the investment. The investment is something like better cycle time, increased throughput, more units that are doing the work, or better quality. Those who employ this practice will dominate markets.
----more----
What we tell you here at Market Dominance Guys is that there’s an environmental constraint on businesses, which is gaining the trust of your prospects. How do you do this? In other words, what’s your investment? Have conversations with them! Do you have to wait till they're ready to buy? No, have the conversations now, and the relationships you create will begin paving the road to trust, which leads to eventual sales.
The main challenge as you narrow your focus down to this one constraint is keeping all the human beings in your own business happy and willing to allocate enough resources from the business to solve this one constraint issue, one bottleneck at a time. Join Chris, Corey, and Jake Housdon as they discuss this challenge, as well as how to successfully employ the conversation-first investment.
About Our Guest:
Jake Housdon is CEO and co-founder of SDR League, the world’s first esports league for salespeople.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: Announcer: (00:06)
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys; a program about the innovators, idealists and entrepreneurs who thrive and dive in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business. Let's get going.
Announcer : (00:27)
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro.
Corey Frank: (00:35)
So welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the sage of sales, Chris Beall, with us today. We are very pleased to have Jake Houston. And Jake, for full disclosure, is Canadian. So we will have subtitles as appropriate. Susan we'll add those where needed; when he uses words like a boot or a lift or whatever else you guys do. So Jake is the co-founder of the SDR league; which we'd like to talk a little bit about today; certainly, which is the world's first E-sports league for salespeople. Something that before I had a bad shoulder 20 years ago, I'm sure I would have participated, right Chris? Chris has kind of gimpy knees, but we were kind of the older guys. Maybe we can come in for an inning or two of relief, but we'll see. We'll leave it to you guys, like you and Ryan and the younger guys, to set the records. All of Chris and our records are in the books.
Corey Frank: (01:31)
You and Brian and the new guys will have a little asterisk next to yours. You have weapons like ConnectAndSell and Outreach and everything else to talk to more folks. We had rotary dials, so our fingers are all knuckled up. So before Jake did the SDR league, it was a CRO of an EdTech company and currently your director of SDR development at dialogue. So we're pleased to have you today, Jake, and Chris and I do not have guests on very often. So when we do, certainly expectations are very great, but we know that your reputation precedes you very well, Jake, and I think we would just jump right into it.
Corey Frank: (02:07)
As we were talking before we hit the record button, Chris was talking with you, Jake, about the theory of constraints and the series of constraints that's germane to us as salespeople today seems to be the sales reps, rattling the marketing cages and rattling the SDR cages and said, "Hey, where's my leads? Where's my demo's." And then God forbid, we actually fill the top of the funnel and then what happens after that, right? Chris, how would you frame that up for you and Jake here, since we were talking about it just a few minutes ago about this very same issue.
Chris Beall: (02:45)
The theory of constraints dominates the world of business and yet tends to be ignored by almost everybody in business. And it's ignored, I think, for a pretty simple reason, which is it's politically unpalatable. When you think about a theory of constraints of your business, a system, every system has one constraint, one and only one constraint. And that's the only thing you should be working on right now. You should be investing in either understanding that constraint, characterizing it, coming up with an investment thesis, making the investment or observing the results of the investment. The investment has always been something like better cycle time, increased throughput, more units that are doing the work, better quality. And the reason we don't like it; none of us like it, there's not a human being on earth who likes it except for Eliyahu Goldratt; the guy who came with it; is that it says there's only one thing right now to invest in.
Chris Beall: (03:34)
Therefore, here's the parentheses; it's probably not what you're doing. It's probably what somebody else is doing. And so that makes everybody feel that, right? Imagine a budget meeting if we said we're going to address one constraint next year. Just one, right? That would be an improvement for most businesses, by the way, if they get up from zero to one, that'd be pretty good. So we're just going to do one. So Jake, we suspect by all the measurements where we're doing the inventory in the form of prospects builds up in front of the sales development function and the discovery function is starved. So we think you've got the constraint and we want to go in and characterize it and you go, "Yippee!"
Chris Beall: (04:18)
So great. You're going to focus on my stuff. And that means, Oh, by the way, the salespeople who are doing discovery, you're going to ignore you completely. The folks who are providing the data, we're going to ignore you completely. All we're going to do is focus on Jake. So now Jake's important and he gets all the budget money, and everybody else gets to sit around and wait until 2021 or two or whatever it happens to be. Right? So nobody likes it. But those who practice it dominate markets. And in fact, when you look at market dominance, guys, the whole of what we're saying is there's an environmental constraint on businesses, which is the people who need to trust you, trust you yet. The answer is not enough of them. So go get them to trust you. How? Have conversations with them. Do you have to wait until they're ready to buy?
Chris Beall: (05:05)
No. Have the conversations now. Cheat, right? Condition the market, pave the road, cheat. That's how it works. And you said, right, as we were coming on aren't that analytical? I'll tell you. That's not the problem, even though it's true. The problem is doing it right is politically unpalatable because it feels de-powering to everybody else. And then as soon as you do it right, you get this problem. You create a flood of output from your constraint, usually, assuming there's enough input, and whatever the next function is downstream becomes the constraint and they don't like it. They wanted it to be easier. They didn't want to be under the spotlight. That happens a lot. Have you ever seen it?
Jake Housdon: (05:53)
Yeah. When you depict it that way, Chris, it seems like the main challenge then is sort of keeping all of the human beings happy as you go about narrowly focusing on the single constraint, right? Because Ryan and seemed to debate this one a lot; whether it's process before people or people before process. But at the end of the day, these organizations are just groups of human beings. And it'd be nice if we could just sort of sweep aside all of their sort of feelings and everything else and just kind of drill down on that.
Jake Housdon: (06:20)
But I think what you're saying is that the challenge is that the political factors at play with everyone's sort of different wants and desires within the business is what makes it difficult for leaders to take that focused approach, to identifying and characterizing that bottleneck and then addressing it and then following it and allocating enough resources from the business behind solving that one bottleneck at a time. It seems like it's probably a kind of human problem more so than anything based on what you're saying, which makes a lot of sense to me.
Chris Beall: (06:55)
You've nailed it! Isn't that something? Corey, you nailed it. I'm setting you up to be CEO of my next company cause I'm always the constraint and, yeah, you've nailed it. My fiance goes on stage and talks about the years of research that she's done on digital transformation. And she works for Microsoft. She was a global digital transformation leader; their sales leader; and her conclusion was it's culture. Ultimately, the technology can't get the job done without the culture. And I think you've just put your finger on what the cultural issue is, which is that it's like an Uber constraint and everybody's got to feel good enough.
Chris Beall: (07:34)
That's fascinating. So how do you do that? Corey is the master. How have you been Corey? How have you kept everybody happy?
Corey Frank: (07:41)
Everybody knows within the sound of my voice, that how I fix it is hang on, let me get Chris Beall on the line and let me tell if I can get the answer. But then if you're busy, I'll call Ryan or I'll call Steve Richard. So that's how I've been able to do it. I think, Jake, what you were leading to when some of the correspondence we had prior to this to answer Chris's question is that the revenue problems seem to start upstream in a business and with this conversation flow and this mystique that, "Pipeline cures all, right Chris?" How many books have we talked about that? It just gets more pipeline. But then what happens if the pipeline is a little sickly, right? What do you do in that regard?
Corey Frank: (08:23)
What cures sickly pipeline, would you say? This is what Chris and I were talking about, jake, before you jumped on, is talking with another gentleman whose colleague, a former board member of Chris's and talking about some of the clients that he deals with and that as soon as the SDR, the BDR function fills that pipeline as Chris was iterating on the constraint. Now the sales reps go from, "Well, I just want any conversation" to "Well, I want a particular type of conversation." They try to be in search of the perfect pitch as opposed to getting frequent before you get good as we talked about with Oren Klaff and a lot of the things that we do on flip the script.
Corey Frank: (09:04)
So have you seen that, Jake, is where you do such a great job and you get all the budget as Chris had iterated, and now you find downstream that the sales reps are saying, "Jake, the thing is I know you put 20 on my calendar this week, but I talk with 12 of them and six of them, if they could just be a little bit more X or a little bit more Y, then you nailed it, buddy. So keep those flowing, will you, but don't send me the other ones."
Jake Housdon: (09:32)
I think that's a massive problem. And I think that it's been succinctly stated by Chris. I think that it's really people think that the cold calls are the Google search, but that's kind of absurd. And it's actually the discovery is the Google search. And ironically, the discovery is where all the best discoveries are made, right? I think what it comes back to is just the prominence that the eight-year-olds have given within the sales org. And I think that's something that is just because they're closer to stroking the cheque that people elevate the AAE role to an extent where they kind of put down the SDR role a little bit, frankly. And I think that you end up uncomfortable to have conversations that are less perfect, let's say, right? And so I think that again, human beings just naturally shy away from that discomfort.
Jake Housdon: (10:20)
And when the authority level is sort of in the hands of the AAE, then that's where you get a lot of that bad behavior and stuff like that. I think we're seeing that change where people realize the whole pipeline cure it's all we've heard that forever. Outbound, just getting harder, I think, maybe? Maybe it's easier with amazing tools like ConnectAndSell now to your point about the asterisk earlier, but to Chris's point about the emperor being naked with emails and sales engagement platforms and things like that. Now you've got a lot of SDR teams where they feel like they're doing their job by just kind of clicking a bunch of buttons on a, on a platform or something. Right. So I just think that outbound is getting really hard. And as a result, the most effective thing now is the most uncomfortable thing, which is making the cold calls, having the conversations. And so it just leads to people, even not wanting to have discovery meetings that are less than perfect. I think we're seeing shift though, where people are like, wow, I, I see how incredibly important my outbound machine is.
Corey Frank: (11:17)
Let's take that for a second. So for Chris and Jake, let's say I did listen to my sales managers and my sales reps, and I wanted to alter tweak, change, quote, unquote, improve my SDRs to get them much more perfect discovery calls. What's the, in what's wrong with having my SDRs engage in a little, maybe instead of one band, maybe my effort is to get eight bat questions, right? I'm going to get two B's and two A's and two ends and two tees. And I'm going to put this massive freeform notes section, and then I'm going to put the ball on the tee. So my sales may get fewer conversations, but man, are they going to be qualified? What's what's real harm in that. Well, I think you're going to crank down the trust that you have in your Tam and the amount of relationships you have with people. Right? Because another thing that I absorbed is just that relationships, third binary, and I know that's something you talk about Chris, like either have one or you don't. Right. So I think that this notion of, I don't know, spamming your Tam or things like that is flawed thinking and that instead it's the whole nail-shaped pipeline instead of the wedge and all of that stuff that we should aspire to. Because at the end of the day, like we said, in the beginning, human beings are involved in business and speaking with them is how you go from that zero to that one. And if you try to sort of crank up the perfection and you, you end up cranking down the relationships and trust that you have, which are really the currency of business in the first place, right? So that's how I think about it.
Chris Beall: (13:30)
Yeah. Corey, I think about it in the very similar way would, when you think about it in detail, and this is one of the hard things about not as in manufacturing, it doesn't do much good to sit around at the coffee shop and talk about how your factories running, right. You've got to actually get in there and watch it run. And you've got to measure yourself and you've got to listen to it. And you, you got to be surprised. You got to be open to, Oh my God. I didn't realize that at that point. And on that conveyor where it turned on that little corner that you can't figure that out at Starbucks, she looked at the details and the deep conversation, cold conversation. There's a flip on the side of the prospect. Hopefully not on the side of the rep. The rep has to have their emotions and their beliefs in line beforehand.
Chris Beall: (14:14)
They're the machine. You can't have the machine changing its characteristics while it's processing the part. It's the part that's changing its characteristics and shapes because it's being processed by the machine, right? So the reps, the machine processing the part and the part isn't ready yet for the, so the next process say the next process is a kneel and you're going to put another, make it really hot and hard, right? So it's got to be shaped right? First. Otherwise you're kind of screwed. You put it in the oven and now it's too hard that to work in sales, we don't have enough trust built in order to go to the confession part until somebody shows that they're ready to confess by saying, they'll come to us. So when we ambush somebody, they are not by definition, ready to confess. There are exceptions and folks will hold those up.
Chris Beall: (15:02)
Oh, I had a great conversation with so-and-so first conversation. They told me everything about the business, blah, blah, blah. That's how you can tell you don't have a decision maker, right? You have a socializer. It tells you everything about their business because they're lonely and they want to talk. You know, but if you're talking to somebody serious, the evidence, the number one qualifying evidence that you're going to get it's that they agree to come to the meeting. And the number two qualifying evidence is that they come to the meeting. And the best thing for you is for them not to show up at the meeting the first time. So you can talk to them, furthering the relationship within the context of them being obliged to you because they didn't come to the meeting. So the best sequences, brief conversation, we talked about how to do it.
Chris Beall: (15:49)
Enough curiosity, to agree to the meeting, too busy, to go to the meeting. That means they're important. Call them back, reschedule the meeting. Hey, I don't know something must have come up for you. So when would be a better time to talk. And that is by the way, the biggest emotional problem that reps have is doing that. I'm offended. You didn't show up at my meeting. Well, I'm trying to find busy people. Of course they don't show up at meetings. That's how busy they are. They’re doing things more important than that. Today. For instance, I'm supposed to pick up a trailer today over at U-Haul and I'm going to drive my Chevy bolts up onto the trailer, put a bunch of paintings and stuff like that and hook it up to my excursion and drive it through Oregon back to Washington. But Hey, Oregon's on fire. I'm a busy guy. You think I'm going to pick up the trailer
Chris Beall: (16:33)
And I'm the customer.
Chris Beall: (16:34)
And you know, if they want to run a really good business that Uhaul and I love them. And they're going to, they're going to say Mr. Bill, but we're so sorry that you were unable to execute your mission and we're here to help you. Let's move this. When would you like it? Oh, next Friday. No charge. Right? And they have the moral advantage on me because I'm thinking I didn't pick up the trailer, right? So that's the advantage you want. Your ultimate way to build a pipeline is to have conversations with, with people you really want to meet with objectively in an ambush conversation, in a cold call, the prospect is not ready to confess. We don't have enough relationships. So we want that nail-shaped pipeline, that funnel and they'll shape the funnel. So when we're trying to generate a quality product at scale, the quality product is for folks to buy our product.
Chris Beall: (17:25)
We need to start with an input. And the input is the best list that we can put together in a short amount of time. And we shouldn't ignore timing. That's why going after going after timing, it's like the dumbest thing in the world. You want to talk to your whole market before anybody talks to any of your market. Therefore you need to talk to everybody and timing must stop yet concern. Secondly, we need to avoid the fantasy of believing that folks will confess to us before we have a relationship that is strong enough for them to actually tell us their business truth. The evidence for that relationship is that they will come to a meeting. So the ideal sequences, we talked to everybody that we believe intrinsically as qualified to buy our product, regardless of timing, and to make use of it. By the way I make money off it, we talked to them.
Chris Beall: (18:14)
We said as many meetings as we can, and we hope they don't show up. And the reason we hope they don't show up, then we can talk to them again. And that's evidence that they're busy people by the way. So we can talk to them again and say, Hey, you must've been too busy to attend this meeting. Can we reschedule? Eventually you will end up having the discovery meeting with them. And that discovery meetings quality has to do with how clean is the confession not did it lead to a deal? So one of the problems we have is we comp our account executives on the deals, but part of their job is just to discover. What's true. We look at the world in a quarterly timeframe, but in our customer base in our Tam 11, 12, set them are not possibly in a consideration cycle this quarter.
Chris Beall: (18:58)
So who's going to do that discovery work. I suppose we could reorganize and have sales development do discovery. And that could be done by the way, Jake. I bet we could do this experiment. If your organization was willing to do it is to train sales development on how to do product-free discovery and then pass off great stuff. So you have two kinds of conversations, one to set the meeting and then you would be holding meetings and then you'd be passing off, essentially done deals. And everybody would love you. Of course, you'd be doing the whole job too, but that's okay. Everybody would love you. And the account executives could just sit around and go, Oh, look, I got a check
Jake Housdon: (19:35)
Hundred percent. And that I think is what ends up happening with all of these forces at play? Is that that becomes the move, right? Because like you said, people want perfect timing. The compensation is based on closed deals, depending on how long the sales cycle is. And all of those things, the eight ease sort of appetite for how far out that timing might be in all of those things, then just impedes the trust-building in order for their confessions to happen and, and everything that you're saying. So I think that naturally what ends up happening is that sort of quest for perfection for the perfect meeting takes so much power that it like forces what you just said to happen, where, okay, well the correct model then to make our business function properly, if that's going to be your expectations is to bring something that's already had great discovery done and, or there's been a few truthful confession spilled already, and then sort of bringing that to the account executive and that model can work too, right? It's, it's a very different culture in terms of your organization and the trouble with it is what you said. It's that we're asking you a heck of a lot out of the SDR, right. And the pay that they make, usually doesn't reflect that in most organizations either there's the open, the close, right.
Corey Frank: (20:48)
So good. Are you at 50 50 in terms of the importance that, that each role has? Right. So that's some of the issues I play for sure. Well, it's difficult. I would imagine Jake too, in person, I've spoken about this in several episodes, that to develop that level of curiosity, which can carry the conversation to any real deep level of insight. Anyway, it's one thing as we always talk about to get from fear to trust and then trust to curiosity, and that chasm is large to get from fear to trust. Right? Chris, Chris and I have certainly we've talked about it. Certainly if Chris Voss, et cetera, it's about seven seconds, seven to 15 seconds or so, but that next chasm, that next hoop that I have to jump through to get from trust to curiosity, oftentimes that's where the empathy and the tone come in.
Corey Frank: (21:34)
And certainly the screenplay, if it's a great message, but a lot of it is really contingent on that, that BDR, that SDR to drive a sense of conversationality through their own curiosity. So it becomes a conversation and not an interview, not a hostage situation. So in that scenario, Chris, that you and Jake just outlined, that's a tough trait to train on. That's a tough trait to hire for, but yet is really contingent on if I wanted to change my whole organization to much more quality discovery at the top of the funnel versus just cold calls. Correct.
Chris Beall: (22:14)
So you got me thinking here and Corey, I, I think that we could do this in your business. Why don't you hire a good therapist and teach them enough about business, that they can hold a product-free discovery call, just think about it. You could do it and I could do it right. I could, I I'm confident that I can hold with, Oh, say two hours of education in a particular field, but I don't know anything about that. I could learn enough to hold a product-free discovery call. That was a lot of fun for the other person that was very educational for them because I'd have my three insights that are special that have to do with my company. I just joined two hours ago. Right. And I'm not motivated by anything other than learning the truth, because one of the problems you, you hit on it.
Chris Beall: (23:01)
One of the problems in discovery is the motivation is not to learn the truth. The motivation is to get to a deal. And as soon as, as an AEC smells that there might not be a deal. They either abandoned or begin to persuade. And to really bad things to do in sales are abandoned. You start to lose interest and then you sound like you've lost interest and nothing's worse than talking to somebody who's lost interest in you. So the other party is like, what's going on or you start to persuade to start to sell and it's discovery. It's not selling. Right. So I actually think these people are out there and they're out there in the boatloads of highly hireable need to learn business acumen. They need to learn to feel and think business while remaining open to possibilities. And that might be the missing role. Jake, we may have just had, we may have discovered a breakthrough
Jake Housdon: (23:56)
May have a breakthrough that completely eliminates the lack of trust in discoveries, right.
Corey Frank: (24:04)
Person in the think business. Yeah. I mean, what do you think about that? Curiosity trade, all the folks that you've had working with you over the years as CRO and VP of sales director of a biz dev, is there a proportionate connectivity here between curiosity and success or curiosity and their ability to maybe move into a sales role and the success they have there? Do you see any correlation?
Jake Housdon: (24:32)
Yeah, well, I certainly do. And I think that one of the things that's extremely difficult for people is that as they sort of get further in their career and learn things and become more experienced, it takes them further away from a nice Zen Buddhist word called shoshin, which is the beginner's mindset. Right? And I think that becomes one of the most difficult things is to really do good discovery. You truly need to be curious and sort of naive in some way as well, because as you get more experienced, you're fighting with yourself on the fact that things that come up, you're going to think you've heard this before and you know where this is going, and you're going to steer it a certain direction, which causes you to miss out on a whole lot of clues that, that ought to be discovered and potentially not create the right environment for people to spill their beans in that confession in an ineffective way,
Corey Frank: (25:24)
Like water as Bruce Lee would say, I love that Shoshin
Jake Housdon: (25:28)
Shoshin. Yeah. Shoshin beginner's mindset. And this is a whole other topic, but I think a problem in sales is beginners are, are often sort of looked down upon and, and stuff like that a little bit. And I think that sometimes they have some of the more valuable insights for your business. And so maybe in that way, it does make sense for SDRs to be doing discovery, right. Because they are usually more so beginners. Yeah. It's pretty interesting.
Corey Frank: (25:52)
I think it was from a Lao-Tzu or Confucius or a fortune cookie that I had, but a mentor of mine would always say kind of the evolution of a great salesperson is a three-step process. It's number one, it's ironic that we're talking about this that says I know nothing. And then number two is I know everything. And then number three is I know nothing. And I think some of us stop at maybe the second piece, maybe some of us stop on the first phase. But I think certainly the practitioners of the craft, the true searchers that we know, and we admire right. Continue with all three.
Jake Housdon: (26:33)
Yeah. A hundred percent that reminds me of something else it's on a slightly different gear, but it's these extreme dualities, right? That you have to grapple with. The other one is the whole notion of detaching from the outcome. You know, that, that we like to talk about it. And Josh Brown, he talks about commission breadth and, and how people can smell your commission breath and all these things. And it's the same thing where you have to close the gap between yourself as a human being and yourself as a human being with a sales quota, strapped to your back, that you're gunning for it. Right? And the best people in the world that I've seen, they close that gap, very elegantly. And, but what it is is this dance of thrashing between the two, as you learn, because at first you have to learn certain sales tactics and how to have a cold conversation and these things, cause they're not natural necessarily ways to speak to people, right.
Jake Housdon: (27:16)
It's kind of different than the way we might have a normal conversation. So you need to be strategic like that, but you also just need to remain yourself. Right. And that's the real tricky part. And then I think that's maybe why you land into third place again, of not knowing once again, because you had to, you didn't know, then you had to learn stuff and then that stuff messed you up a bunch along the way, because it messed up your ability to do certain things. But then at a certain point, you've done that stuff so many times that it just becomes like part of your soul. And I think that's the promised land to get to. But the thing I was talking about with detaching from the outcome is you simultaneously have to care everything about trying to help that person, but you also need to care nothing at all about whether you actually can't. That's a very weird thing for people because we're emotional creatures.
How long will it take to get the meeting? You have three steps first:
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Make the list. And review that list and eliminate the dumb titles. Chris is a fan of Zoominfo.
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Write the messaging. Remember, one turn of phrase can kill the meeting. Marketing language kills a sales call. Subtle nuances make or break the call.
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Talk to people in that market, those that are intrigued enough to hear what we have to say. Who does the talking? Find and hire the ASKERS.
Tune in for this short episode of Market Dominance Guys: Change the Message or Change the List
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to another session with The Market Dominance Guys. A program about the innovators, idealists, and entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks, and magic beans needed to grow your business. So let's get going. You're listening to The Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of Connect and Sell, and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro.
Chris Beall (00:41):
Hey there, Market Dominance folks. I'm here today without my brilliant and amusing cohost Corey Frank, and I'm just going to do a little practicum, I guess you'd call it. A little kind of look at the nuts and bolts of market dominance.
Chris Beall (00:57):
So in order to dominate a market, we've got to have the goods, obviously, we have to have something the market needs and wants. We have to have a notion of a market which we need to turn into a list. So key to market dominance starts with obviously a market, and a list is defined as a whole bunch of companies, if this is a B2B, a whole bunch of companies. Maybe two, maybe 50, maybe a thousand, who knows, maybe 10,000. That if any one of them on that list buys from us, then all of the other ones will be slightly more inclined to buy from us sooner rather than they would have otherwise, and at the price that we want to sell to them at.
Chris Beall (01:38):
So it's kind of a self referencing or inter referencing list. So we need to make that list. So that's step one, it's a practical step. And I'll talk a little bit about that. Step two is we have to have something to say to them, and we have to have a purpose in saying it. So we'll go over that too. We'll call that messaging. Step three is we've got to actually talk to people in that market. And we need to find the ones who are intrigued enough with what we have to say, that they decide to come and attend a discovery meeting, or what I call a confessional meeting. So how do we do all of that in the practical day-to-day way, and how long should it take?
Chris Beall (02:22):
So let's start with step one. Let's make the list. Thankfully, there are many, many list providers out there. I have a great fondness for the folks at ZoomInfo. And really you can make a list, which is nothing more than a hypothesis about your market. A list, not only of companies, but of people that you might want to talk with. So it's titles at companies. Try to keep the companies more or less the same size that is within a band because small company titles are different from big company titles. At small companies, a title like mine, CEO, might be somebody you want to call a broad range of things. But when you get a Microsoft size company then you're not going to call Satya Nadella and talk to Satya about, say for instance, oh, having the Microsoft employees have a lot more sales conversations. You need to find somebody who's responsible for that.
Chris Beall (03:15):
And that might be a manager title at a large company. So get your titles lined up with the size of the company. And remember it's a hypothesis. How long should this take? Well, it's hypothesis. Doesn't take that long. Actually, you can get a list that's worth calling on about 30 to 45 minutes at work, let's say an hour on ZoomInfo, and now we need to validate the list. So how do we validate the list? We're going to have conversations with the folks on the list. Those conversations have got to be about something that's relatively consistent, otherwise we won't get a very good signal out of our validation. And so what we're going to do is construct a message. The message will have essentially two parts. Part one is simply being in a position to have a conversation with the person.
Chris Beall (04:00):
We've ambushed somebody, these are going to be cold calls and or follow up calls. The beginning they've got to be cold calls because you can't stop somebody a second time unless you've talked to them the first time. So we're going to have, what we call, an ambush call or a cold call. That's a conversation with somebody that is not expecting us to ring them up on the phone. And in that conversation, first, we need to get them to trust us a little bit. And the way we do that is through what's called tactical empathy. We start from a position of knowing that they're afraid of us as an invisible stranger. We offer a solution to that fear to the problem, the problem is us. And we offer that solution in a way that indicates that we're competent. Competent to solve a problem they have right now and therefore we are worth trusting.
Chris Beall (04:46):
So here's a situation where we can say a few words. I know I'm an interruption, can I have 27 seconds tell you why I called? And while you might want to cast around for a whole bunch of other different ways to start a conversation, that one is good enough. It's above threshold. So my recommendation is don't try to become the cleverest person on earth putting together the first two sentences. The first two sentences, or first seven seconds, are the most important part of the conversation. And there's a bottleneck of all of market dominance. So it's worth getting them right. It's worth getting the tone right, and it's worth having the underlying belief right. The underlying belief has to be a belief in the potential value of the meetings that we're offering to this human being in the case where they're never going to do business with us. And I know that sounds a little funny, sales folks and business leaders always want to go right for it. The fact is, it's the hypothesis.
Chris Beall (05:40):
We don't know what should happen, so we shouldn't presume that what should happen is that they should take the meeting. We need to have an open mind, but we also need to have confidence that the meeting itself is a good product. It's the universal product of business. Let's understand the value from the meeting that they will achieve. And then let's just say something that is interesting and intriguing to get some curiosity going. And let's have it be positive. I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates, and name a bad thing that you're going to take care of that has an economic value to them. A bad thing that has some sort of emotional value, and a bad thing that's keeping them from getting where they want to go, call that strategic value. Do that without mentioning what category of product that you offer, without pigeonholing yourself in order to avoid getting the, we're set, objection, the deadly objection, and move on from there and just ask for the meeting.
Chris Beall (06:39):
So you need to have your people learn to do this, or you need to do it yourself. Kind of depends on how big you are. I highly recommend you do it yourself first to get a feel for it. And asking for the meeting is just a question of asking something like, the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available? And that's it. And then you both, you take your belief, which is, this meeting really is going to be of value to them, they're going to learn a lot. And you let that guide you for the next little dot.
Chris Beall (07:10):
Now day-to-day, say you've hired the right people. So what are the right people to have these conversations? They're people who are sincere. People who believe in the mission that you're on. They don't have to understand it deeply, they just have to believe in it. People who have good voices. People who are comfortable asking rather than having people guess what it is that they want. That's a good way to look at this is that there are askers and there are guessers. There are families that work like this, cultures that work like this. You want somebody from an ask culture or an ask family, where people ask for what they want and it's okay if they get a no, that's a real key. And that's a fairly easy thing to ascertain. In an interview you can find out, did they ask you for things? When you're interviewing them, did they ask you for things, not just ask you about things, but for things? If they do, and they're comfortable getting a no for an answer, and they're capable of being an asker, they can probably ask for the meeting because that's what they're doing.
Chris Beall (08:08):
First, they're asking for the 27 seconds and then they're going to ask for the meeting. So find askers, hire those askers. And how long does all that take? Well, if you're doing it yourself and you're an asker, it takes no time at all. And you're actually talking to people on day two. Otherwise you've got to find somebody. And I would recommend finding two somebodies, but that's because it's hard to test anything with the two different ways of doing it. And then train them up. So let's say it takes a week to find and hire two people, good voices who are askers. Train them up means they learn the message, that takes about one day, and they need to practice it. How often? About 30 times. So 30 times in a row, just getting the message out, and then they need to practice answering the natural objections. Especially what we call the Venus flytrap objection, which is, hey, tell me more.
Chris Beall (09:02):
And when somebody says, tell me more, you have to get really comfortable saying, you know, we've learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this isn't a fair setting for talking about something this important. Are you a morning person? How's your Wednesday? So getting to that point should take no more than a day. So now we have a day of putting our list together, a week of hiring, and now we have a day of training up our new hires, and then we want to have them talking. But from now on, they're going to talk to people in a coached way. Now, how often should they talk to folks? My view is, lots. And I sell a product that lets them do that, so maybe I'm biased. But my people today, for instance, my 12 people have had 170 conversations. And my top conversationalist has already had 27, and it's 12:49 in the afternoon here on a Wednesday on the west coast.
Chris Beall (09:53):
So I'm most concerned for my team, and you should be most concerned for your team about whether they're having enough conversations. You probably gave them a good list. If the list has titles on it they shouldn't talk to, if you can take care of just by inspecting the list, I recommend pivoting it on title and looking at the count. Sorting descending on the count of each title, and getting rid of the dumb ones, that's all you have to do. So now they're not calling dumb titles they're calling ones that might be pretty good. And now we need to find out, are they having good conversations or not? Remember, that the first seven seconds is where it tends to go bad. So what we want to do is we want to find out, well, who's having trouble in the first seven seconds? Thankfully, there's a call outcome or disposition that tells us that. It's the busy call back disposition, or busy call back outcome of the conversation.
Chris Beall (10:46):
So I could look at my sales reps right now, which I'm going to do. Our team has had 7,913 dials today. And I think there's 13 people involved, 170 conversations. They've set 17 meetings and they're converting at about a 10% conversation a meeting rate. It's hard to get people on the phone today for whatever reason. 46.55 dials, thank goodness our people never have to make any of those dials. And they're dialed to meeting, which has kind of an overall metric that says, how well are we doing economically? It's a little high today, 465 to one. But not a lot we can do in one day about the fact that people are hard to reach. So I'm going to just say, let's forge ahead. Converting at a 10% rate is pretty darn good. Getting 77 follow-up opportunities, which our team has done also, and eight referrals is also pretty good.
Chris Beall (11:39):
But I want to find out, how to keep the car on the road? And my analogy for this is, if you're driving a car and you close your eyes, or just look down at your GPS, it doesn't matter how good your GPS is, you're going to run into things. You're going to run into things, animate and inanimate. And that's a serious problem. You've got to have your eyes on the road and you have to make the little steering motions, breaking motions, and use your brain in order to drive a car on any road. It's the same thing about driving a company on a market dominance road. We need to look at the road, and the road consists of, interestingly enough, the outcome of conversations. So what we want to do is find out who's having the most trouble keeping people on the phone? If we find somebody who's had 22 conversations and 40.9% of the time they're getting up busy call back later, and that's the top of the heat for busy call back later, that means they aren't keeping people on the phone quite as well as they might.
Chris Beall (12:36):
Maybe it's their voice. Maybe it's the list. Who really knows until we listen to the conversations. Because most likely it's the voice, and most likely it's in the first seven seconds. So we want to listen to the conversations of our reps who are having the most difficulty keeping people on the phone. And then we want to come back around to them, speak with those reps and say, hey, let's listen to this conversation together. They might be off script. A common thing to do is to change some of the words around. Change, can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called, to, do you have 27 seconds so I can tell you why I called? Very different effect. So the subtleties are important.
Chris Beall (13:14):
This an athletic kind of thing and we have to coach in real time every day. Fortunately at 30 conversations a day or so, that's pretty straightforward to do. Now if we do all of this and then we note our conversation and meeting rate, if it stays about 5% forge ahead, forge ahead, forge ahead. If it starts below 5% and doesn't come up to 5% as we tune our message, then our message needs work, or our list needs work. And that's the primary adjustment.
Chris Beall (13:43):
One is to change the message, which is the most likely thing that has an issue. You probably put some marketing language in it and marketing language kills sales conversations, for sure. So you might've succumb to that temptation. But whatever it is, you change the message or change the list. That's a little bit of a bigger task to change the list because you have to decide to go after a different market. So that's pretty much it. Iterate, iterate, iterate, talk to lots of people, keep tuning and coaching and market dominance actually will come to you fairly naturally. So that's a very brief episode of Market Dominance Guys for this week. Thanks everybody, appreciate it.
Corey Frank (15:09):
CEO's who sell or don't sell because what you're, even at Connect and Sell, it's unusual that you, as CEO, your esteemed VP of sales, Jonty, and your chairman all still make regular sales calls and sell. And in fact are some of the top producing folks in the company. Why continue to do that? Don't you have the market figured out by now? Isn't your time, or Jonty's or even Sean's, at the chairman level? I mean, you guys are dominating your market, you're growing at a great rate every year. It seems that there shouldn't be that many changes to the marketplace, or are there?
Chris Beall (15:58):
You kind have a choice when you come in as a hired gun. You can choose to be what we call Mr. Monkey, in my circles. Mr. Monkey, you know those little monkeys that, the toy one that you get that you wind up and it's got the cymbals that it bangs together? And that's all it does, it bangs the cymbals together and it makes this noise, right?
Corey Frank (16:15):
I used to work for one. Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:17):
Yeah, yeah. Sort of a cheerleader monkey, right? And they're just doing the same thing over and over. And then if the company grows under them, they take credit for it. Much like [crosstalk 00:16:26].
Corey Frank (16:25):
Oh absolutely. Know them well.
Chris Beall (16:28):
Stockbrokers, they'll take credit for, you know, they'll bring you a bunch of stuff and some of it's great and they take credit for that, and stuff that's not great suddenly they're just bringing you new stuff. Just keep banging the cymbals together. So you can be Mr. Monkey and you know, you'll probably do okay. I don't object to it. Now Mr. Monkeys tend to negotiate hard for themselves, and as a result they tend to do okay. And there's kind of a desperate shortage of people who are willing to be CEOs, regardless of what everybody says about the job. It's not actually that popular for some pretty good reasons. It isn't the very, very, most fun job in the world in a lot of places. That's one way to do it.
Chris Beall (17:05):
But even if I were Mr. Monkey, I would do this. I would take one discovery call per day. One. Not curated, just one out of the mix and I'd have it assigned to me, one per day, half an hour. That's what I would dedicate to my sales activity. And then I'd pass it off. Because frankly it's in discovery that we make the greatest discoveries. So kind of learn a lot in discovery. I'm going to learn what our sales process is like at the tip of the spear. Finding out what customers need. I'm going to find out what my flow is like. Can you imagine if I came into a company, I said, give me discovery call a day. And they said, boss, we don't have one, right? We don't have one for you. We're going to have to work at that. It's like, really, that tells me something already.
Corey Frank (18:00):
Yeah, or five no shows in five days, or whatever, you know?
Chris Beall (18:05):
Exactly. You'll gain more information through that half-hour than all the staff meetings you will ever hold in the entire year. You'll gain credibility because you'll be out there executing discovery calls. And if you're really good at taking credit, you can take credit for the deals that come afterwards. Now, it's kind of funny because all you are as a filter, but if you're a pretty good filter, if you can discover need and the need turns into something that happens downstream turns into business, you know, those are your deals. So you'll be an actual player. But what you'll learn is stuff where you can move the needle with very little effort. It's always hiding in there somewhere, no one's going to tell you. No one's going to tell you, did you know that we have three extra steps in our sales process, that we inherited from five years ago, that drive away the best customers? Right?
Chris Beall (18:57):
Why? Well, because somebody once said that if we make them sign the contract first, rather than whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And when you're the rep you're going, are you kidding me? That's crazy. You know, I could feel it, right? So you'll find the points where you can have the maximum impact with the minimum disruption. And the credibility factor is huge. One of the things you need as a CEO in all cases is either credibility or the illusion of credibility. And real credibility doesn't hurt the illusion. So if you're an illusion kind of Mr. Monkey, then this'll help. If you're not, and you're a reality kind, then this will help. So the one thing I would advise any CEO to do, and by the way, if you're a VP of sales, chief revenue officer, whatever you are, including if you are that director of business development, take one discovery call per day on your calendar. 250 discovery calls a year will transform you and will transform your business.
Corey Frank (19:58):
That's exceptional advice. And today, if you had to guess, right, since I've done all those roles and I failed in all those roles, and that's such an incredible piece of advice, Chris, like I said, we've known each other for a long time. You've seen some of the organizations that I've been a part of, and that I created. And I can tell you that I fall into those, a lot of those same traps. Hey, I only want to be on the big deals or, you know, just, you know, just kind of save me for just the ones that, you know, have a lot of meat on that chicken wing. And I've been doing it completely backward. So that's so incredibly, you know, embarrassing, cringe-worthy for a sales guy like me to hear that something so simple, outcomes raiser in that regard, that's just one a day. So today from, I mean, you talk with sales organizations, you and Jonty, and Sean talked with sales organizations, VPs all day long, how many are doing that today, would you think? What percentage?
Chris Beall (21:00):
I'd be shocked if it was 5% of CEOs, I'd be shocked if it was two. I'd be shocked if it's 2%. The easiest, cheapest thing in the world to give yourself information and organizational power, including by the way, board power. Because when you're in a board meeting and those numbers are up there and somebody's poking at the numbers, do you want to be held hostage by your VP of sales is the only person with the story?
Corey Frank (21:25):
That's right.
Chris Beall (21:26):
Right. That might be the person you need to fire tomorrow for all you know. And so you better have something around stories and they better be firsthand, not secondhand. And so, you know, 250 stories to choose out of, for a year or so, a lot better than maybe zero or one whale that you're going after you were called in on the big deal or whatever.
Corey Frank (21:45):
As always, it never disappoints. You put the quarter in and you listen to not just one song, but we get a whole bunch of songs here for our values. So thanks for the time today as always. This is another episode of The Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall and Corey Frank
The sales lead discernment process is similar to search results. The ones that come up on the first page are the ones you interact with. It's like a discovery call. A discovery call's purpose isn't to say, "I'm going to buy." One of the biggest mistakes sales trainers make is relying on role-playing as the method to gain confidence. Role-playing is not designed to get you calm and confident. It's a "gotcha" setup. Rehearsal and practice are a better training method to allow the salespeople to get comfortable enough they don't have to think about how they might fail. You need to have it be a reflex to get to the underlying emotion. The underlying emotion that needs to come through is curiosity.
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As for the introverted sales pros we talked about in an earlier episode, public Rah Rah adulation is of little value. Giving these professionals a private rah rah is more effective in keeping them motivated. Get these and more insights in this episode of Market Dominance Guys: Sales is a Collaborative Exercise in Search.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: Chris Beall (00:41):
When teaching the golf swing the way I do it anyway, and I've had a lot of success with this in 15 minutes, somebody goes from never having swung a golf club to hitting little 100 yards, right to left seven irons with one hand. And the reason that they can do that is that the impediment is their desire to make the club move fast and get the ball the way,their mind tells them it needs to happen. And by taking the ability to execute on that desire away, they have a chance of feeling what it's really like just swinging golf club, or have a golf club swing now. And I think in sales, the way we do this is pretty simple. One is the script. The script is really important because it gives us a chance to practice our way into the emotional state that we need to begin and to do it without the scary part there, which is the other person.
So a huge mistake that I see sales leaders make is that they think that the sales conversation is a contest between the seller and the buyer. And this is actually fairly commonly taught that buyers are liars and all these kinds of things are out there as concepts that folks have been told as though what you're in is a little war with the buyer. And when you win they buy. And in fact, modern sales is the opposite. It's a collaborative exercise where you start with search, you're searching for somebody who potentially has the ability to get value from what you do or what you provide. So that's all that cold calling and prospecting stuff as a form of search and the search results. When you do a Google search, right? The search results that come up on the first page are the ones you might interact with. The interaction equivalent is the discovery call.
And the discovery calls purpose, just like when you click through a link on a Google query, isn't to say, I'm going to buy. You don't do a query. I did a query yesterday, trying to find a particular hotel up in Birch Bay that happens to be associated with the timeshare that I own, right? I wasn't simply going to click through and buy it. I was going to click through and check to see if the dates they had available, matched up with what I'd like to do in the first week of September. The idea that I need to qualify beyond the fact that they showed up on the first page of the search is kind of ridiculous, right? I need to look into things a little bit further, and it's good that I've practiced, searching and go. That I practiced clicking. I didn't have to spend 15 minutes girding up my loins to be able to click on a link.
I know that it's pretty safe, right? But I've got to practice the safe stuff in a way that gives me a chance of succeeding in the micro, in the moment. And then I need a teacher to say, "Hey, that was good." Even when the result isn't there. And that's the real key. It's the key to the golf swing is the key to anything. If you want to learn something complex, you need a teacher to be there to tell you when it's working before it's producing results. So there's two huge errors that people make in managing sales teams. And if they just stopped them, life would be much better for everybody. One is role play. Role playing is not designed to get you calm and confident. It's a gotcha situation. We're going to role-play. And we're going to show where we can trip you up, where you should have done this, where you should have done that, where don't do this. Don't do that.
All that does is it gets you all knotted up. So when you go into the real conversation, your mind is going, should I have done that? Should I have done that? I shouldn't do this. I shouldn't do that. And then there you go, waters on the left, you've hooked another shot out of balance, right? And then the other thing that needs to happen is in the practice, replace role-play with practice, just practice, just rehearsal. Rehearsal is needed in order to make the sounds come out of you automatically so that you're free to express the underlying emotion. And the underlying emotion is actually curiosity. So you're curious, can I have 27 seconds tell you why I called? So you are showing that you're competent to solve a problem this person has right now, that is you, the invisible stranger, the scary beast in the dark, but you're also saying it in a playful, curious tone. Notice how quickly curiosity enters in the relationship in the second sentence, it enters into the relationship.
So if you're curious, you're naturally relaxed. When you're curious, you're waiting for information to come through to you. You stimulate it. And then you're waiting. It's like waiting for the golf smile, waiting for the club to get down, to get to the top before it comes back around, you just have to be relaxed in order to do that. You get relaxed by practicing the thing that works, not the thing that doesn't work. And you need the teacher to tell you, "Hey, that was good." Not, "Oh, look at that. You whiffed it." It's like in the golf swing, it's like half an inch lower. That thing would have been beautiful. You did everything right. Let's do it again.
Corey Frank (05:29):
As an instructor, as a mentor, as a teacher, you need to be able to give guidance. And as a student, you need to have a teacher that can tell you that something is working, even when you may not feel that it's working in the wild just yet.
Chris Beall (05:46):
Yes. And when you're listening to the conversation. So the way we run our flight school is like this. So we run this thing at ConnectAndSell called flight school and flight school takes pretty much any human being and turns them into a top 5% in the world, cold call, and does it in four sessions of two hours each. So step zero is to develop the message. And we've been through all of that, walking into the bar, sit to the left of the person who's your ideal customer and ask them, how's your day. We listened to how their day went. We come up with three things out of that. One of them is we'll call it economic. One of them is emotional and one of them is strategic. We put them in a very simple sentence. I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the bad thing, the bad thing and the other bad thing.
Or maybe it's got some other variations in it. And then we move forward and we avoid a couple of things there. Okay. All that's great. We've got to have that. Now, how do we become great at it? Well, first we've got to get great at the first seven seconds. It's like a prizefight. If I go into the ring and I get knocked out in the first seven seconds, it really doesn't matter how good I would have been. Right? It just doesn't matter. Flat on my back on the canvas is the same and almost every cold call is lost in the first seven seconds. And the reason it's lost in the first seven seconds, is the voice doesn't support the concepts that are in the script. The idea, the flow of emotions in the script are not supported by the voice. So I play a little bit of piano, as you might know, and many people think I'm much, much better than I am.
I'm actually a very poor piano player. I would rank myself among people who play the piano regularly in the bottom 20% easily, but I'm quite capable of playing freely the emotions that I feel in any piece. And then what did I do to do that? I took my left hand out of the equation, so I don't have any mechanics associated with it. And I simplified things. So I can express myself in the melody of my right hand. It's actually the same as the golf swing. Take the part that doesn't work so well out. Do the part that does work and then getting encouragement for the stuff that is working before it's producing results. And so in flight school, what we do is you do a two-hour session with ConnectAndSell. That's like 15 to 20 conversations, all hot, all live, all live fire.
In those conversations, there's going to be a coach listening to you, and you're going to get coached not after everyone, but after most of them. In session one, you get coached only on the first seven seconds, because that's the important part. That is, it's what you need to get before you can go on. And then afterwards, there's a listening session. We go around the classroom and everybody gets to listen to their best. Why do we listen to their best? Because you want to know what you did right. And you want the encouragement from the teacher that says, "Yeah, that was great." Don't worry that they hung up. The guy hung up, so what? The lady sounded pissed. So what? You sounded perfect. Let's listen to your voice again. Listen to that playful, curious, listen to your voice go up twice. That was great. Then in the second session we do what we call the breakthrough part.
So we call it Flight School because the first session, the first two hours is takeoff. And then there's freight flight. We're in the middle of it. We're going somewhere, right? It's the, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough at the completely eliminates whatever it is. And it's their message. And they've had time to practice it and rehearse it. And again, can they get the tone right? I believe we've discovered a breakthrough. Does the breakthrough sound like the hero and the hero's journey? Do they believe the breakthrough is an actor? Is doing something? Does the breakthrough slay the three dragons in their little story? Does it sound like a story? Does it sound like a pitch? Coaching us on that. That's session number two. Session, number three, we've got to land the airplane, right? It's flight school. You got to learn how to get it back on the ground.
So we have to ask for the meeting. It's very simple. The way to ask for the meeting, we just say, the reason I reached out to you today, was to get 15 minutes on your calendar, share this breakthrough. I haven't rehearsed every single. So you got to get that part right. You got to land the plane and then you got to deal with turbulence. The objections, they're inevitable. How do you handle, they tell me more objection? The Venus fly trap? What do you do? You've got to practice that the most awkward of handles in the world. And the most honest, which is we've learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this, just isn't a fair setting to talk about something that's important. You a morning person? How's your Wednesday? Getting that stuff right is a matter of practicing with the teacher, paying attention and getting encouraged when you do it right.
Getting feedback that says you did it right. Especially when it didn't deliver results. And then occasionally you'll hook one up with results and you'll see that works too. But there is an element of faith in all of this. And the element of faith is you actually have got to go into learning, to be great at anything believing in your teacher. If you believe you're the teacher, then the teacher's not the teacher. Somebody got to be the teacher. It's just the way it is. And so in the same way that we shouldn't bring our ideas too deeply into discovery, we shouldn't bring our ideas too deeply into learning something as delicate and chilling as cold calling. It's like when I learned to drive a race car, I got in that car and I tried to forget everything I knew about driving and just let my eyes take me where I was going to go. And instead of responding to the screaming of the guy in the right seat, telling you what to do, is responding, don't tell me what to do.
I really tried to just do what he said, brake hard, brake hard, brake hard. Meant stomp on the brake, as hard as I can. And then his feedback was great. It was a young guy and he gave me incredible feedback. So the first time I did it right, which was on the third lap, turn one, we're going in. And finally I wait long enough and I brake hard enough. And guess what? We kind of spin out a little bit. We don't quite lose the car, but almost lose the car.
Corey Frank (11:58):
[inaudible 00:11:58].
Chris Beall (11:58):
Completely. Oh, the way race cars work. It's like, [crosstalk 00:12:01].
Corey Frank (12:02):
But there's the fighter flight. You want to disavow everything he's saying, because you, who are a residential driver driving 11.2 miles over the speed limit, right? Who's been doing this since 15, 16 years old. You want to resist that feedback. So how do you trust that teacher? Right? Even though you're in the same environment you thought you were in before at driving to the racetrack, but now everything is accelerated. You don't have to have a conversation as a person. How is it different than having a conversation as a salesperson?
Chris Beall (13:23):
That's really good. That's exactly the equivalent. And it's up to the student to come with an open mind. It's up to the teacher to coach the actions or elements of performance that next can lead to success without getting ahead of themselves, without coaching the next part, don't teach the part after this part, just teach this part and just paying attention to whether it was done correctly. Not the result. It's really quite simple when you come right down to it. And in sales, we have this conceit. I see it all the time out there on LinkedIn. Whereas some, for instance, I'll post some numbers, right? You know how I am. I like to post the numbers about number dials, which are done for the reps and the number of conversations and the number of meetings, which are the wins and all that good stuff. There will often be somebody that comes in and says, "Yeah." But what about the revenue? What about the closed one?
Well, so what, right? Unless we get the meetings, there's not going to be any closed one. I mean, these are all small percentages, mostly working against us. So I'm not going to win a lot of races in that Ferrari, probably take me 20 years and having nobody show up for me to win one, but I can learn that I really do go all the way up to that cone before I break. And I really do break as part as I physically compress on that pedal. And I really do just aim the car at the apex. And I know it feels really weird, but I do it. And my instructor was great. When I came out of almost losing the car on turn one on left three, there was a straightaway. And so we had a little bit of time and he ignored the fact that I forgot to shift it to sixth gear on the straightaway.
He just ignored that, which would have been a natural thing for him to pay attention to. That's the next thing, what he said was, "Great job." That's what he said. Great job. And I thought, okay, I did that right. And then the next time I did it right, but with a little more awareness of this other little piece he told me, which was kind of be a little bit more gentle as I changed the direction of the car, going to the apex in the turn.
Corey Frank (15:29):
[inaudible 00:15:29].
Chris Beall (15:29):
So yeah, I mean, there's a sort of a thing that does a little physics in there somewhere. So I think our sales managers really, really need to be great teachers. We talk about coaching all the time and I think coaching is correct. I think that's what we're really doing, but I'll make this warning. A lot of people in sales came out of the world of athletics and there are two elements of coaching. There's a teaching element, learning to execute, the thing you need to execute to perform. And then there is sort of an energy motivation level of coaching, getting folks up, keeping them up, keeping their spirits up and all that. And I think that's the one people remember having been coached and they think their job as a coach is to go all rah-rah or to go all yell at you, to go all Vince Lombardi to say winning isn't everything. It's the only thing, whatever he said. Right?
And it's just not the case. I mean, when you're coaching NFL players, you can say that they're all really, really good. Every one of them already knows how to execute all of the moves through all that stuff. But guess what? They still get taught and get taught. Tom Brady actually gets feedback on technique, not just whether he was in a good frame of mind, whether it was a hopped up on excitement on adrenaline or whatever. And I think that coaching often sounds like let's do some rah-rah. Rah-rahs have such little value in sales. It's just a such little value, including celebrating the wins. There are certain personality types that need to do that. Go ahead, let them do it, right? Introverts who make the best sellers tend not to be encouraged or they like a private rah-rah. If you're the leader of a company and you have an introverted salesperson, especially at the top of the funnel, recognize their good day privately at the end of the day, do that.
Corey Frank (17:24):
That's great. So I think we had talked, when I was in the Uber and we were chatting about something else the other day about reps and today's generation on this career cycle to eventually become CEOs. And what is the ideal career track, right? To be CEO development program, workout regimen, if you will, over the years to be a next-generation CEO? And similar to what I've heard you say here in the last 30 minutes or so Chris, is that if you have a great teacher, as a rep, you are naturally going to learn how to teach from your teacher, which will contribute to your skills as a great CEO. You are going to learn how to evoke a curious nature in a conversation, which as a CEO is, you clearly need, you're going to have empathy, which we had talked about in several episodes already, and you're going to learn presentation skills, but we're also going to learn metrics.
And you had said something to me the other day that the CEOs of today, can't just sit at the top of the food chain. They have to get intimate with the inner workings of every silo of their business. And it seems to me that what we're talking about here is that if you have a solid rep BDR development program, as an organization, you are setting your organization up for much success that will trickle into every department, or trickle up, if you will, if you want to use a hierarchical example, your SDR/BDR team will trickle up a level of success and it should not be an afterthought. It should not be a place where they get residual marketing or sales training dollars. It should be at the front lines and be treated as such because of, I think the reciprocal effect of doing that really, really well from not just a numbers perspective, of course, but from a leadership development perspective throughout that organization,
Chris Beall (19:23):
I think this is a really big deal. Well, first of all, there's two ideas in here. One is what is a modern and future CEO like? And they've got to have two characteristics. Big time. One is they have to be systems thinkers. They have to be able to see a system as a whole and understand how that system interacts with its environment. When you run a company, a company is a system and it's a system that at that moment is designed in order to help some folks in database and companies do things more cheaply or do things more effectively or conveniently than they can do for themselves. So that's what a firm is. That's why we make companies. We specialize in something that others might need, but they don't need it to the degree of becoming it. So we get to be it and concentrate that specialization.
And we create this system called the company. And if you don't know how a system is put together in the inside and how it works, it's very, very hard to reason about where it could go next. And in particular, where it might be breaking down. The systems break down easily and small things inside of systems can become big things. We had a small thing recently in our system at ConnectAndSell, unfortunately, we test extensively on ourselves as Guinea pigs, before we let anything out in the wild and the very small thing that we'd changed, created a very small delay in not transferring to the user of ConnectAndSell, but transferring to the agent who is navigating. And that very small delay caused a misunderstanding, kind of at a statistical level by agents of what they were hearing in voicemail greeting, and whether it really belonged to that person.
Corey Frank (21:01):
Really?
Chris Beall (21:01):
And that caused a miss marking of some of the phone numbers that we were calling as being main numbers instead of direct numbers. And that caused a miss execution. So we polluted our own data, but we didn't intend to, we did everything as designed and in a lot of companies, I would assure you that a quarter second delay causing what looks on the surface like, "Oh my God, where do our direct numbers go?" Would have created a witch hunt to go out and find who's responsible for the bad data. And the bad data actually grew like scum on a pond. Nobody was responsible for it. We just let the temperature of the pond get half a degree too warm. And it grew scum. And we caught it in a day and fixed it and went back and fixed the data and did all that. But that's the CPR. [crosstalk 00:21:53]
Corey Frank (21:53):
And I think it, you caught it because you just happen in the course of your day as a CEO. One of the things that you do is you just look, almost like a beautiful mind. You look at 100 different KPIs and metrics and maybe it just takes a couple of seconds. Yeah. It's on track. Yeah. That's on track. And you said that you noticed something a little bit peculiar, which led to a deeper dive, a deeper dive, a deeper dive. And that's how you found it from the systems type thinking. So you work from backwards up because you knew what the metrics were going to be. And when they're off slightly, that's where it's time to dive in.
Chris Beall (22:30):
Exactly. And I didn't diagnose the, what's going on under the covers, but I could smell something was going on under the covers. And it was in one set of numbers. And it was simply the order of the outcomes. The most popular outcome is voicemail reached for after navigation. The second, most popular is voicemail reach direct number, call a direct number, which was third is gatekeeper as target, but not available. The number two and number three were flipped. That was it. And they were flipped day after day after day, starting on a particular day. To me as a systems kind of person, I look at that and go the odds of that happening spontaneously statistically are zero, right? So as a CEO, you also have to understand the nature of probability and all that. Then there's this other job which has got to talk to people.
I mainly listen to them and kind of move things ahead. But without presuming that you know all the answers and I believe the best place to learn that is as a cold caller. So I look at cold calling like what you guys are doing at Youngblood Works. As truly finishing school for business graduates, where they've learned a whole bunch of things. Maybe even learn some things about teaching from their best professor. Why do we go to college? Because one of our professors will be so good. We'll learn about teaching. And maybe we'll do some of that ourselves later in life. It's not the content. It's the actual experience of being taught effectively. And if you go to a college, there's enough teachers. Eventually one of them is going to be good enough that you'll go [inaudible 00:23:54] I work for me. Right? And then you might want to learn more about that.
But I think what you guys are doing at Youngblood Works where you're taking these very, very talented people, high ambition folks who are coming out of a program or still in a program, interested in business, probably have CEO in their minds, somewhere in their future. And the natural finishing school. Back in Victorian times, you had to learn how to dance certain dances, or you were toast in society, right? In Victoria, in England, if you couldn't dance these dances, I mean, you couldn't go, you couldn't do anything. You couldn't hold conversations with people because you had to do it out on the dance floor. Right?
And so how do you learn the dances of the future, which happened in conversations? Well, you got to go to a dancing master and you got to do it on the real ballroom floor. And that means talking to real people with real coaching going on. Because if you take the emotions away, the fear emotions, you'll never find out if you're performing right. So I just see that there's a way of looking at the SDR/BDR role that folks are not quite getting. They think they're preparing future AEs and getting them to that as fast as possible.
Corey Frank (25:06):
Exactly. Exactly.
Chris Beall (25:06):
Makes no sense. They should be looking at this as the best way to bring anybody into their organization. Even engineers, is to have them come in and sit in the seat. Anybody can learn the script. Anybody can learn to believe in the potential value of the meeting for the human being they're talking with, regardless of outcome, anybody can get their voice to go up and down in the right places. Anybody can be coached to silence. And these things are very straightforward, right? They just have to believe it's worth their while. Well, do you want to be a CEO someday, including a CEO of your own life? Learn to have conversations with invisible strangers. [inaudible 00:25:46]
Corey Frank (25:46):
I know a lot of Marines in my life and I work with some and my son is becoming one. And the John Darby who works with me at Youngblood had said, "Listen, as a Marine veteran, you're taught that whether you're a cook or you're a attorney, or whether you're in logistics, you are a rifleman first, a Marine is a rifleman first." And it sounds like if you're an engineer in an organization, you're a CEO, you're a VP of technology. This new world order of starting out as a biz dev as an SDR, learning how to script from the ground up is everybody needs to learn these traits of curiosity, these traits of empathy, the systems backwards and forwards to be a true contributor to that organization. I know where we're running up against the clock here for this episode, but I think that we still have a lot. I have a lot to milk from you. Certainly. I think we can cover this topic next time on the traits of a CEO. I know we've touched on it in a few episodes here.
Chris Beall (26:49):
Yeah. I'm glad that we've hit this one. I think that this is sort of the big deal that we have a lot going on in our society right now with the pandemic and all that we have, a lot of folks are looking around and asking, what am I going to do? Well, what you're going to do is going to be limited by what you're capable of doing and what you're capable of doing will have a lot to do with what you've learned how to do, right? You've got to go explore. And I would recommend anybody who wants to check out their future CEO ness, go ahead and become a cold caller. But by the way, don't become a cold caller who spends all day, not talking to people it's much better to talk to 30 or 40.
Corey Frank (27:25):
Well, fantastic. Well, it has been another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, with Corey Frank and the Sage of sales, chris Beall. Thank you Chris. Until next time. Keep dialing.
Chris Beall (27:34):
Thanks, Corey.
CEOs are allowed to have weird thoughts and consider odd possibilities. You need input from the market you don't have yet. This is why a CEO needs to be selling to understand what is actually happening. Their job is to feel the ice rather than just sending your reps to drive the road.
Put yourself in there as CEO, don't absorb the friction, find the root cause. The marketplace is always changing. CEOs love to harpoon a whale, but they need to experience every aspect of a sale. They need to be in the mix and feel what is behind the numbers. Listen to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, It's the CEO's Job to Feel the Ice Rather than Harpoon the Whale.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and entrepreneurs, who thrive and die in the high stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business, so let's get going.
Announcer (00:21):
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys, with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank of UncommonPro.
Corey Frank (00:35):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the Sage of Sales, Chris Beall, with all things markets dominant oriented.
Chris Beall (00:45):
This is something that drives me a little bit nuts when CEOs stop selling and they cut themselves off from the only information flow that counts, which is what's happening inside of a discovery conversation that indicates to you that something needs to be different, something about your positions, something about your product, something about your company needs to change in order to stay current and stay ahead of what's going on in your marketplace. As you go through the process of dominating market, things change. One of the things that changes is some things get easier, and so if you keep doing certain things the hard way, you're wasting money and time. It could be that there's an easier way to move ahead at that point. So who knows, but unless you're out there on the front lines, and particularly, very specifically, CEOs need to engage in discovery conversations.
Chris Beall (01:38):
Discovery is discovery. Discovery is not discovering whether they need your product. That's what sales people tend to think of discovery as "I'm going to discover that you, Corey, need to buy my thing. You know a miracle that every discovery conversation has the same outcome. You should buy my stuff", it's like, "Really?" I thought we were going to discover the nature of the problem that you think you have. And then we're going to examine that problem in the light of different ways of looking at it, thinking about it, that might reveal a solution to the problem that you hadn't considered before. It may well be that that solution is something we can help you with. It may well be otherwise. That's why it's called discovery. And it's actually been flipped on its head. It's like, "We're not discovering what we're doing is hoping. We're hoping that you want to buy something because I going to make my number." Right?
Chris Beall (02:27):
It's kind of funny that we call it "making my number", when I get lucky enough that the hope turns into an outcome. So as a CEO, I want to know what's going on. I'm driving on a road that hasn't been driven before. By definition at all times, my company is going into new territory. Even if all we're doing is going into the easier part of this market, how do I know for instance, something we've talked about which is, when I've gotten far enough into one market where it's time to seriously consider a foray into an adjacent market. Well, I've said before, it's stunned by the numbers. But in fact, I'm lying when I say that. It's actually done before the numbers. There's a point in the process where a discovery conversation with the wrong person shows incredible opportunity.
Chris Beall (03:12):
And it's only when it's with the wrong person, which is why you must eat false positives in the discovery process. You have to put false positives and it says you don't know there are false positives. You just need to be a little bit promiscuous. As you throw opportunities into the discovery process, you have to be a little bit tight. And I've said before, on a different episode, 15% false positives, that's a pretty good number.
Corey Frank (03:36):
That's right.
Chris Beall (03:37):
10% is light, 20% is okay, but a little bit wasteful and 50%, you probably don't know what you're doing. So if you had about 15% and you have like, "I'll look at our team again for the day. Let me just see how we're doing." What would that mean for us? So today, so far we have just to take a little peak here. We've got 20 meetings and so 15% of 20 meetings would be... Three of those meetings would be with people we shouldn't speak with.
Chris Beall (04:07):
So say three of those happen a day. So every week we're going to speak with 15 people we shouldn't speak with. So say one out of 15 of those people actually has a problem we can solve. That's nice. That's a problem we can solve, even though they're not correct with regard to our idea of the market and say, that problem turns out to be a problem. It's fundamentally interesting in the sense that it represents a market opportunity, not a one-off. Well, how are we going to know that? My salespeople aren't going to report that back to me. And if they do, we're going to say, "Hey, focus on the ones that want to buy what's in the bag" right? We're not going to say, "Hey, great. You brought us something weird." So who is going to take an appropriate action called thinking in the face of something weird.
Chris Beall (04:57):
There's only one safe place to do that. That's a CEO position.
Corey Frank (05:00):
That's correct. Right.
Chris Beall (05:01):
CEOs are allowed to have weird thoughts and consider strange possibilities and maybe bring them forward and have them argued, shut down, whatever. You kind of get used to it as a CEO and you get used to your team kind of saying, "Really, again? Nutty I... Didn't we do that before and it didn't work?" That's a very common [crosstalk 00:05:20] CEO, right? We tried that in 2013 and it failed in a spectacular way. Well, sometimes you end up prophesizing something that is different from what happened before and kind of outcome, but you need the input from the market. And I don't mean the market you're selling to, I mean, the market that you're not selling to. The one you don't even have yet. So CEO needs to be out there doing that.
Chris Beall (05:45):
It's kind of like, if you're driving a car and you're driving on a road you've never seen before. Say it's the middle of winter and back in the day, you were going to come up and visit me at my house up Pine Needle Notch, for extra effort. You weren't aware because you've never driven that road before. You're a desert guy, right? You weren't aware of that sometimes there's a stretch of the road just above long canyon. Then when everything is great, sometimes has a little ice on it and it's outward sloping. And it's about a 950 foot drop down into that canyon. Don't you want to actually feel that ice rather than just checking the outcome. "Did Corey make it?", that's how we do it in sales. We say, "How many deals did you close to how are we doing?" That would have been, "How often did you make it to my house?"
Chris Beall (06:32):
"Oh, well, why didn't he make it?" The answer is there's a 26 foot stretch of road that tends to have ice on it, that tilts to the outside. And somebody forgot to tell Corey, "Hugged the cliff a little bit, angle the car over there, slow down and by the way, you can't have tires that can't handle this. Where's your form of threat?" So it's the CEOs job to feel the ice, to feel the difference. And then to kind of be the early warning system or the early opportunity system to close the loop from back. CEOs who don't sell also have another problem. They don't know where the friction is in their sales system. All systems have friction. Every system in the world has friction. Some dumb thing, right? It's just there, every single one. How do you know? Well, your reps will complain.
Chris Beall (07:17):
Really? You're going to listen to all their complaints. No. You're going to dismiss their complaints because reps complain because their reps and they're looking for excuses, right? And they're in a game where it's like golf, you and I played a little bit of golf. What do you do when you start around a golf? You assemble the most important club in your bag. Your number one excuse for how you're going to fly. That's the most important club because you know it's not going to be great and you got to have a good excuse. So right now mine would be, "Oh, I haven't played since last September", more rough. And it's, "You know, I've had some issues with my back as I've gotten a little bit older" but you've got to have an excuse, right? Salespeople need an excuse because they're in a game that has a lot of law and a lot of failure, so you stop listening to them.
Chris Beall (07:59):
But when they're telling you about legit friction, be great to listen to them. I tell you what, you put yourself in their as CEO and you absorb that friction. You have to eat it. It's wasting your time. Suddenly it's like, " Oh I'm worth extra zillion dollars an hour. Why am I spending my time doing this? Why is my show rate this low? I had two meetings scheduled today. They didn't even show." Well, okay. You just experienced it. Now, let's go find the root cause maybe nothing can be done about it. Maybe something can be done about it, but you're the one complaining now and when you're done complaining, we'll figure it out.
Corey Frankl (08:31):
Well, I find it interesting.
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell and Cory Frank of UncommonPro.
Corey Frank (09:29):
I've always been fascinated, right, as long as I've known you longer than the ConnectAndSell days, of course, but since even at ConnectAndSell, it's unusual that you, as CEO, your esteemed VP of Sales, Jonti, and your chairman, all still make regular sales calls and sell and in fact, they're some of the top producing folks in the company. Why continue to do that? Don't you have the market figured out by now. Isn't your time or Jonti's or even Shawn's at the chairman level. I mean, you guys are dominating your market. You're growing at a great rate every year. It seems that there shouldn't be that many changes to the marketplace or are there?
Chris Beall (10:14):
Are there? Yes. There are. Always are changing, unless you do regular sales. So CEOs love to do this kind of stuff, "I'll go sell something big. I'll go harpoon a whale. I'm a whale harpoon. Right? Well, I got a couple of little whales that I've harpooned and I kind of liked them. They didn't start that way. However, they just started little. And since they're my accounts, I have to pay a lot of attention to what happens every day. And so I'm in contact with all the way through the process, through renewals and particularly through customer success. And why, because my customers really feel free to call me, right? I'm the CEO. They don't like something. They know that they're going to get something out of a calls. Give me a call and say, "That guy you sent over for the messaging workshop the other day, it wasn't as thrilling as you. What's the deal?"
Chris Beall (11:03):
Well. Whatever, right? I get to hear it. So that's the most important thing is you have to hear it all the way through, but it's not about the whales. It's not about bringing in the big deals. It's not about any of that. It's about being in the mix and feeling what's behind the numbers so that we can have rational discussions with each other about it and goes, " That real is that not realistic, it's just my emotions", by having all three of us sell and we do sell a fair amount. It's pretty beefy numbers that we put up and we compete a little bit. Jonti caught me by 10 grand on December 31st, last year. I'm not saying he's a sandbagger. I'm really not. I'm just saying that he's a guy who knows how to get you by 10 grand on December 31st at 11:00 PM. Right? I'm not bitter about it.
Chris Beall (11:49):
I just think it's a good thing, right? But what are we really seeing? We're seeing the flow of the business every day, at every stage so that the numbers can be interpreted in the light of shared experience. We can get together and say, "Are you seeing X, Y, or Z? Are you noticing that more people that we talk to seem to be interested in an outsource solution of having somebody else, like Youngblood Works, actually have their conversations for them at the top of the funnel. And do you know why?" "Yeah. I am seeing that. Well, why do you think that's going on?" "Well, I talked to this one and I got this particular enlightenment." "Really? Can we go back and talk to that person again? Maybe we can take them into a different sales process. Maybe we can do an experiment."
Chris Beall (12:36):
So when you're running something... If you think you're running against stasis, you're out of your mind. You're running against continuous change and everything you think about it that's interesting is wrong. Everything you think about it that's uninteresting may or may not be wrong, maybe you think a bunch of correct things, but the interesting things are the ones where you're wrong. And when you're out selling, you feel it and you go, "Wow, that bothers me. The way that conversation went, bothers me." A salesperson kind of go, "I didn't get them. You're going to go that bottles."
Corey Frank (13:06):
That's right. So in other words, what I hear you saying Chris is never trust a CEO who wears flip-flops.
Chris Beall (13:12):
Absolutely. The ones wear flip-flops will not go very deep in the canyon. The barefoot ones, you can trust. Actually, there was a personal note, I was just told by my fiance the other day, she didn't tell me. She told somebody else that she hasn't seen me in any footwear other than barefoot and flip-flops since March 13th of this year. So yeah, don't trust me. I will never go past the flip-flop line. That's all there is to it.
Corey Frank (13:40):
Correct. How about so professional CEOs, right? You reach a certain stage as a venture-funded company, or even a private equity-backed company, if we go up the food chain a little bit more, and you're a hired gun Chris, right? I'm from XYZ Venture firm.
Corey Frank (13:57):
And the CEO is now going to become the Chief Visionary Officer or Chief Strategist or whatever title that they deemed because the CEO got us to 25 million. And now we're thinking of a new change, a hired gun to come in and take us from 25 to a hundred million or so, what should the CEO do and not do in those types of situations, because the ownership of the company is still very much alive. Those founders obviously, still care very much about that. If they're humble enough to bring in or let their VC bring in a CEO or a hired gun, or was placed by a PE firm. And let's talk a little bit about that as we kind of expand this concept of what should the CEOs be doing in the sales role, obviously under the guise of making sure that alignment is tight functionally between sales and marketing.
Chris Beall (14:50):
Well, for one thing, I mean, those people are real-life professional CEOs. They're not like me, so I don't really know, but I have observed a few of them and some of them are my friends, so I have a sense of what their challenges are. You kind of have a choice when you come in as a hired gun, you can choose to be what we call Mr. Monkey, in my circles. You know those little monkeys that the toy one that you get, that you wind up and it's got the symbols that have bangs together and that's all it does. It bangs the symbols together and makes this noise, right? [crosstalk 00:15:20] Sort of a cheerleader monkey, right? And they're just doing the same thing over and over. And then if the company grows under them, they take credit for it, much like stockbrokers-
Chris Beall (15:33):
Stockbrokers bring you a bunch of stuff and some of it's great and they take credit for that and stuff that's not great. Suddenly, they're just bringing in new stuff, just banging the symbols together. So you can be Mr. Monkey and you'll probably do okay. I don't object to it. Mr. Monkeys tend to negotiate hard for themselves. And as a result they tend to do okay. And there's kind of a desperate shortage of people who are willing to be CEOs, regardless of what everybody says about the job. It's not actually that popular for some pretty good reasons. It isn't the very, very most fun job in the world and a lot of places at. It's the Lonely Minds Club because they have no hearts. That's one way to do it. But even if I were Mr. Monkey, I would do this. I would take one discovery call per day. One. Not curated, just one, out of the mix.
Chris Beall (16:18):
And I'd have it assigned to me, one per day, half an hour. That's what I would dedicate to my sales activity. And then I'd pass it off, because frankly, it's in discovery that we make the greatest discovers, kind of learn a lot in discovery. I'm going to learn what our sales processes like at the tip of the spear, finding out what customers need. I'm going to find out what my flow is like. Can you imagine if I came into a company and said, "Give me one discovery call a day" and they said, "Boss, we don't have one", right? "We don't have one for you. We are going to have to work at that." It's like, "Really? That tells me something already."
Corey Frank (16:52):
And five no shows in five days or whatever-
Chris Beall (16:54):
Exactly. You'll gain more information through that half-hour. Then all the staff meetings you will ever hold in the entire year. You'll gain credibility because you'll be out there executing discovery calls. And if you're really good at taking credit, you can take credit for the deals that come afterwards. Now, it's kind of funny because all you are is a filter. You're a pretty good filter if you can discover need, and the need turns into something that happens downstream, turns into business. Those are your deals, so you'll be an actual player. But what you'll learn is the stuff where you can move the needle with very little effort. It's always hiding in there somewhere. No one's going to tell you, "Did you know, that we have three extra steps in our sales process that we inherited from five years ago, that drive away the best customers?" "Why?" "Well, because somebody once said that if we make them sign the contract first, rather than whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah." Right? And when you're the rep you're going, "Are you kidding me? That's crazy."
Chris Beall (17:54):
I could feel it. Right? So you'll find the points where you can have the maximum impact with the minimum disruption and credibility factor is huge. One of the things you need as a CEO in all cases is either credibility or the illusion of credibility and real credibility doesn't hurt the illusion. So if you're an illusion and kind of Mr. Monkey, then this will help. If you're not, and you're a reality kind, then this will help. So the one thing I would advise any CEO to do, by the way, if you're a VP of Sales, Chief Revenue Officer, whatever you are, including if you are that director of business development, take one discovery call per day on your calendar. 250 discovery calls a year will transform you and will transform your business.
Corey Frank (18:39):
That's exceptional advice in today. If you had to guess, since I've done all those roles and I failed in all those roles, and that's such an incredible piece of advice Chris. Like I said, we've known each other for a long time. You've seen some of the organizations that I've been a part of and that I created. And I can tell you that I fall into a lot of those same traps, "Hey, I only want to be on the big deals" or just kind of saved me for just the ones that have a lot of meat on that chicken wing. And I've been doing it completely backwards. That's so incredibly embarrassing. Cringe-worthy for a sales guy like me to hear that something so simple, outcomes raiser, in that regard, that's just one a day. I mean, you talk with sales organizations, you and Jonti and Shawn talk with sales organizations, VPS all day long. How many are doing that today, would you think? What percentage?
Chris Beall (19:30):
I'd be shocked if it was 5% of CEOs... I'd be shocked if it was two. I'd be shocked if it was 2%. The easiest cheapest thing in the world to give yourself information and the organizational power, including by the whiteboard power. Because when you're in a board meeting and those numbers are up there and somebody poking at the numbers, do you want to be held hostage by your VP of Sales? That's the only person with the story, right? That might be the person you need to fire tomorrow, for all you know. You better have some of your own stories and they better be firsthand, not secondhand. And so, 250 stories to choose for a year or so, a lot better than maybe zero or one whale or whatever you called in on the big deal or whatever.
Corey Frankl (20:10):
That's malpractice insurance, as far as I'm concerned, what you're just communicating here. I've certainly been guilty of it for many, many years.
Chris Beall (20:17):
It's massive. And it's simple. It's easy. It's executable. And guess what? It's also fun because one of the problems at CEO job is your office, if you have one and you might notice I tend not to, for this reason. Somebody once asked me, "Why aren't you ever in the office?" I said, "Every time I go there, there's no customers." I tell her I don't see anybody that's interesting there, because I know you guys and talk to you anytime, but no customers, right? When you think about it, it's like your office as a CEO goes from being a place of discourse to an echo chamber, because people will want to tell you what they think you want to hear. And the one-party who won't tell you what they think you want to hear is a prospect. They'll tell you the truth, but at least they'll tell you the truth.
Chris Beall (21:01):
If you're humble enough to do what it takes, to get a confession out of them. So if you can do that, you'll get the truth. And the truth will set you free. Shawn McLaren always repeats that. Anytime somebody goes down, one of these perceptions is reality paths, or they don't want to know the truth. He says, "Just repeats that", know the truth. Truth will set you free.
Corey Frank (21:22):
That's right.
Chris Beall (21:23):
So here's the simple way of getting the truth, with variety. What's statistical variety? 250 is a pretty big number. I had 200 squared. If we just had 200 a year, 200 squared as what? 40,000. Your market is 40,000. You just did a clean sample in a year with statistical validity. You got to hear all the different things people are going to say. And every once in a while, you're going to find something.
Chris Beall (21:45):
I found something three weeks ago. I let people just jump onto my calendar and ask the Sales Development team to really load me up, because I wanted to see what did it feel like friction-wise to have 10 discovery calls in a row back to that? I wanted to see how bad was it. Would I have time in between them? How much research does it really take? What's the handoff like? How much logistical work do I have to do? I wanted to drive myself crazy. It's not obvious, but I'm a really impatient person. I frustrate relatively easily. I know a lot of people, " Oh, you're so patient. You're so mellow." "Yeah, exactly." Get close enough sometime. And you'll find out that's not always the case. And I know myself pretty well, so I wanted to see what's it like. Beat me up. I want to be in the ring.
Chris Beall (22:28):
I want to have one fighter after another. Come in. Boom, boom, boom, boom. So the first one was at 7:00 AM, if we did 10 in a row, it's only five hours.
Corey Frank (22:36):
That's right.
Chris Beall (22:37):
Done by noon, really think about that. 10 discovery calls finished by noon, kind of nothing to it. And I was tired by the time we got to the eighth line and I was concerned that I was starting to not pay attention very well. And the eighth discovery call was an individual and I didn't research this person very well, but she turned out to be somebody who had worked as a consultant to one of our most interesting customers, who was in a new vertical that we hadn't played in very much. And so I did this discovery call and what happened? She says, " Oh, I want to start a company using ConnectandSell as the core in a vertical that I believe I know an awful lot about. And I want to set appointments in there and I'm going to create this company on these foundations. What do you think?"
Chris Beall (23:19):
Now, that was just a lucky hit, but it gave me a thought and it actually comes back to what you're doing at Youngblood Works. Maybe it's time for us to consider how hard it is for folks to take conversations at pace and scale and turn it into results and have a smaller number of folks who do it professionally, included with all the customers who do it themselves. Let's not just offer a do-it-yourself product. Let's offer something more package, but not just by happenstance. Maybe we should go out and start looking at this as a go to market. Now, had I not had that conversation? I might've gotten there eventually, but I tell you it stimulated me because there was somebody passionate about starting a business.
Chris Beall (23:58):
And when I pushed back and said, "I don't know. That business has got some dirty qualities to it. Be pretty rough. Customers come and customers go." I call it the chocolate chip cookie business. You promise them two dozen chocolate chip cookies with 12 chips at each one. One of them has 11 chips. They say, "Take the entire batch back and give me another rep." Right?
Corey Frank (24:20):
That's right?
Chris Beall (24:21):
And then, she pushed back on me and said, "No, I believe and this is why I believe. This is what I've done to prepare for it. What do you think?" And I said, "You know what? I'm willing to do that experiment." So now we get to do an experiment, looking at a new market as a possibility, a whole new go to market, which you're already pioneering for us in a very pure [inaudible 00:24:39] with somebody I don't know. I know you, so it's a big variable difference and would I have discovered that otherwise? No, so now I'm getting lucky, but that's important too.
Chris Beall (24:49):
It's important too to get lucky. I don't know what CEOs are thinking of. What are they going to do? Talk to their staff. I mean, they have work to do. We don't want to be bothering those people all the time. Track? Yeah. Look at spreadsheets? Well, that's a good one. And that's why God made weekends, so that on a Saturday morning, we can take a glance at a spreadsheet. And if something jumps off of that, ask a question or two. But really staring at data, doing analysis, reading endlessly, all that. Sure. Take half an hour a day. All the discovery call that's legit, just like any one of your other sales reps. Again, no cherry picking. And by the way, don't complain about the false positives. That's part.
Corey Frank (25:30):
As always. It never disappoints. You put the quarter in and you listen to not just one song, but we get a whole bunch of songs here for our value. Thanks for the time today as always. This is another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Chris Bealls and Corey Frank.
Marketing can step in and help sales overcome it.
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Beginning: listen to discovery conversations.
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Middle: look at support tickets to see the unvarnished truth.
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End: work on getting the pipeline to be seen as an asset, it belongs on the balance sheet. Ask to be measured on the value we are contributing to help steer my efforts based on results that are being produced.
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I want to know upfront what's going on - attribution
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in the middle - discovery
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at the end - support tickets and we should want to know this first hand.
BONUS SEGMENT: Introverts tend to make the best salespeople. Why? They have time to THINK before they act and put deep thought into their approach to securing the meeting. Listen to the second half of this episode to confirm why you want more of them on your sales team.
----more----
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Chris Beall (00:35):
Yes, it's kind of funny. Sales and marketing alignment as an issue has an assumption. And the assumption is actually the inverse assumption that is if sales and marketing were aligned and by sales and marketing alignment people mean, do they share the same goals, do they have the same metrics, the metrics interlock? So if marketing does their thing and they do as much of their thing as they have committed to the company to do and if sales does their thing and they do enough with marketing's leads that they generate, their marketing qualified leads, as they've committed to do, then all good things happen, but there's one good thing that doesn't happen and that is information flow coming back from sales attempts to turn marketing qualified leads into actual sales opportunities, and marketing's attempts to go out and get more marketing qualified leads. That is, it's an open loop process. And the reason it's an open loop process is twofold. One is just raw, and that is only up about 9% at maximum of marketing qualified leads of MQL, so never spoken with, never have an actual human conversation.
Corey Frank (01:48):
In sales and marketing alignment, we'll end where we started with the virtual world that we live in today with companies. I can't just go down to the marketing team and the marketing team can't just sit on the sales floor. What do you see here? Is it easier now that we live in the world that we do? Or is it a little bit more challenging? Certainly, I would think that you can get better than 9%. So there's arguably only one way to go there. But what's your final thoughts on that?
Chris Beall (02:21):
Yeah. I think that there's always developments that are going to improve stuff. We have one of them for sales and marketing alignment. People don't think of it as that. Some people think of it as a sales tool, which is I bristle at. I insist on calling it a weapon of [crosstalk 00:02:35].
Corey Frank (02:35):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Chris Beall (02:36):
But say you did consider it as another tool that's out there and say, "Well, what does it do?" Well, let's talk to a lot more people, but it also lets marketing people listen to what salespeople are saying. That alone, to have marketing folks listen to what salespeople are saying so that they can take that information and do two things with that. One is the obvious which is improve the marketing message. Now, generally, people think it's the other way around, marketing needs to improve the sales message. But we know that sales psychology forbids marketing language from entering sales conversations safely. Marketing language in a sales conversation has the quality that it tends to be insulting and telling that person that they are not doing their job particularly well, or they're not diligent and they're not competent because they don't know about this thing everybody knows about.
After all, marketing language starts the category. Category is always broad. If I'm telling somebody they don't know about the category, I'm really insulting them. And if I'm saying you don't know about this important differentiated offering in the category, I'm telling them they're not keeping up. They were waiting for me to come along. So you'll tend to get the weird set objection. And the weird set objection is the worst objection in the world of customer interactions. Because now to fight that, you kind of have to say, "No, you're not." And you're telling somebody that you know more about their world than they do. And that's not a good place to go in a sales conversation. But marketing can make huge use of what they learn in sales conversations, huge use. They can find examples. They can find nuggets.
They can find stories, opportunities for amplification and by the way, people to go back and talk to in order to get deeper understanding. One thing marketing has a hard time getting is primary research. Primary research, when you go to the source and you talk to him and who better to talk to than folks your sales folks have already talked to? You got some information back. Now, go have those conversations. So I think that would help. It'll also help marketing's credibility. So these recording technologies like Chorus, Gong and ExecVision are really powerful because they are generally used in discovery from marketing, to listen, to discovering conversations and see what's being discovered. You're discovering truths from customers and what could marketing value more than truths from customers and prospective customers? It's kind of similar to ticketing systems. Now as a CEO, one of my marketing jobs is to know what's going on so that I can direct our future regardless of how we're going to position.
So I read every support ticket and some people think that's just crazy. We're not a tiny company. As you know, we're pretty active. Once you get up to 50 or 60 million of something you do a year that people pay for, you probably have a lot going on.
Corey Frank (02:36):
That's right.
Chris Beall (05:26):
And then those kind of [crosstalk 00:05:27] some things that didn't work that well on any given day. But I read those tickets. They take two or three seconds in order to just kind of look at it. And I'm looking for insights like where are we missing it? Where are we doing something that adds friction that might go away? And where is there something fantastic happening that everybody else might see as negative, but I might see it as different, I might see it as an opportunity? So that's something that I can do. It's very inexpensive. Marketing people can do it too.
If I were a marketing person only and I am a marketing person in addition to a bunch of other things, I would start with two things. I would listen to discovery conversations and pay a lot of attention to those. That'd be number one. And then I'd also be looking at support tickets because I'd want to find out what are the truths that are flowing in the interactions with our customers when it's not varnished? And they're telling the truth. And then another thing I would do is I would work on getting the pipeline to be seen as an asset. And this is something we could do a whole episode on and probably should. Your pipeline ought to be on your balance sheet as a number. And I don't mean adding up all the opportunities. That doesn't make any sense because the early stage opportunities have a lower probability of close.
But if you multiply each opportunity by its eventual probability of close, and by the way, the probabilities you have on today are BS. You have to go back historically and see what the actual probability of stage one closing, stage two closing, et cetera, et cetera. If you'd look at that and just add it up, you can actually tell whether your marketing is doing any good without waiting for closed one business to happen. That cycle time is too long to be usable. If your cycle time to learning whether your marketing program has an impact is the marketing program was run, the median of that run so that's a six week program, so now three full weeks in, and then I've got to start looking at results, but I have to wait until they turn into closed one business, I'm screwed.
But if I don't look at the magnitudes, I'm screwed also. So how do I do it? Well, all I have to do is look at the opportunities, look at the lead source for the opportunity, map it back to whatever the activity was and voila, I can actually say I invested X in this marketing activity and I got Y out. Now, some people will complain and they go, "Oh, but you're going to double count." Yes, you're going to double count because guess what? If I say hello and I shake your hand, I don't know which one of those made the difference, but I'm not going to be able to do the easy experiment of saying hello ad well, now I could do it without shaking your hand. We could elbow bump, or we could stay in Zoom. Right? Well, back in the day, I was going to do both.
So it's okay for me to say my investment in this yielded X, my investment in this other thing yielded Y and not have my two investments add up to this total investment yield that X plus Y yields the union at the sets X and Y. That's just how set theory works.
Corey Frank (08:31):
That's right.
Chris Beall (08:32):
And I'll get myself a really good idea of what's working. So as a marketing person, I would go to the CFO and say, "Hey, I want to be measured based on the value that we're contributing. And I want to be measured in real time, not at the end of the year, because I think that the company needs to be able to steer my efforts. And I need to be able to steer my efforts based on results that are being produced. And since my results are in the pipeline, in the creation of pipeline, ultimately, I want to know." So what I'm saying is I want to know up front, what's going on. That's that particular thing, attribution is what it's called. I want to know in the middle of what's going on, which is discovery. And I want to know at the end what's going on, which is support tickets. And I want to know firsthand and all of us in our roles should want those things.
If I'm selling, I'm the head of sales, I want to know upfront what's going on, that's the conversations that are happening, relevant conversation, the flow rate of conversations. I want to know in the middle of what's going on, because I want to listen to discovery conversation and see if we're holding them well. Are we being open-minded? Are we being curious? Are we allowing the prospect to talk to us about their world? Are we getting everything or only are we getting what we're looking for?
That's a question that I would be asking in discovery. And then I want to know at the end what's going on, which is actually interestingly enough in the support tickets again. The closed one is easy. That's part of the process. If I do a great job everywhere else, I'm going to close a bunch of business. I might want to pay attention to that, but that's probably not it. So everybody has three things they could be looking for, something at the beginning, something in the middle and something at the end, probably take... Well, here's my investment. I like to overcook the discovery meetings. So my average per day is three. So I prescribed one. I actually execute three. It's like my prescription for barefoot running is I think anybody who has feet should get out there and run maybe a half a mile barefoot a day. But I prefer to do about eight miles a day because I think it's really good for you.
I think discovery meetings are really good for you. So three a day is better than doing one and one [crosstalk 00:10:50].
Corey Frank (10:50):
That's right. That's right.
Chris Beall (10:51):
I read probably 70 support tickets a day. I want to see what happens to those. Some of that's of interest. And with regard to the what's going on at the beginning, what's going on at the beginning is really one more exploratory, right? I want to have just for me, and this a CEO thing perhaps, I want to have one exploratory conversation per day that I'm pretty sure it's going to lead nowhere. Just if I have a day without that, I'm disappointed. I want to have one that on the face of it, if I had to explain to somebody why I was doing it, I'd be embarrassed.
Corey Frank (11:27):
I do that a lot with many of the functions that I operate on throughout the day. So it sounds like if we had to condense the last couple of last 90 minutes or so, it's your perfect day, one thing we know is eight miles barefoot, is a helping of support tickets, a healthy ladle full of discovery calls and three fingers of scotch. And if we had to look at all the different problems we've solved in the world here or addressed today, we went from sales and marketing alignment to the value of your pipeline, to CEOs making calls, to how to make scotch and of course, with flip-flops in this elusive and very important and scientific line of demarcation, which is now called the flip-flop line, I think we've covered quite a bit here in these episodes, Chris. So as always, it never disappoints. You put the quarter in and you listen to not just one song, but we get a whole bunch of songs here for our values. So thanks for the time today as always. This is another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall and Corey Frank.
Corey Frank (13:23):
Welcome to another episode of the market dominance guys with Corey Frank and the sage of sales, Chris Beall with all things market dominant. I'd be curious to see from a CEO perspective, because a lot of us, right? We've talked certainly several times now about the change in organizations when they're moving remotely and the role in sales where I have to be around your, as you say, my three pound brain has to be around in the vicinity of somebody else with a three pound brain and particularly in sales with the collaboration and the energy and the day activity tracking. But I'm curious, it would be interesting to explore what that does to the CEO as well when his whole entire organization is virtual now, right? You're used to it certainly at ConnectAndSell. You guys have had a headstart.
But for a lot of CEOs, right? They're used to having the security blanket of a staff around them to kind of go from meeting, to meeting, to meeting, to have this echo chamber as we called it, right? Of feedback flowing up. And now I wonder if CEOs actually have more time on their hands. And so there's even less of an excuse not to make these types of discovery calls or customer calls to kind of fill those gaps.
Chris Beall (14:44):
Well, they certainly have more time that they're not traveling and I can speak as... Maybe I traveled an unusual amount, but I don't think so. I was on the road in business 108 days last year. So that's a lot of time. Now you could say it's productive. Time to read, time to talk to people. I met random people here and there and not a small number of deals get made. I have a certain propensity for picking up deals in bars, so to speak, but still that's a lot of time. Think of each trip. There's a half an hour to an hour to get to the airport. There's an hour and a half to go through all the junk at the airport. There's the occasional missed flight. There's the four hours plus. To get to the other end, there's the Uber, there's this, there's that. Yes, all waste. That's all pure waste. So that time has been freed up. By the way, that money's freed up too. So in our company, $40,000 a month of travel is freed up.
Corey Frank (14:44):
That's right.
Chris Beall (15:40):
40,000 a month's a lot of money to find. Talk about change found in the couch cushions. Oh, look, there's 40 grand. I wonder if we could do something with it. Well, let's put it away for a few minutes and then think about that attack, right?
Corey Frank (15:55):
Right. Right. Right.
Chris Beall (15:56):
So the time is certainly there. And yes, I think that one of the things is there's an egalitarianism of a good kind that shows up in these Zoom meetings. Zoom flattens the meeting. The meeting's no longer in my office. One thing I always hated when I moved, so to speak up, I never could figure out why I call it up, in organizations is you get the big office and I hated the big office.
I've always hated the big office. I remember I had a big office at a biggish company I worked at, not big by anybody's standards you think you know, a company that had been a billion dollar a year company that had kind of moved into being sort of under secular pressure from the internet of $350 million a year company. I was hired as the head of innovation. It gave me this big, big office, big corner office on the eighth floor overlooking, I don't know what, like a cornfield or something. And I'm pretty sure I went in there six times during the year I worked there. And one of them was on the very last day when we sat around drinking some Chinese whiskey, because I had all Chinese team, the most wonderful team I've ever had in my life and they were very kind. So that was one time.
So five times to do anything else, but I refused all the meeting in there because why do I want to encourage people to lie to me? And that's a terrible thing. The hardest thing to get is the truth. And you might get it at lunch. You might get it at somebody else's desk, but you're not going to get it on your own turf in that big office. So now nobody has a big office anymore. So maybe there's a little more truth flowing around. There is also who talks. You want your introverts to dominate the conversation over time. They're the most thoughtful people in your company.
Corey Frank (17:44):
Oh. Okay.
Chris Beall (17:45):
They're also your best salespeople. So your introverts actually didn't like it in the raw, raw sales floor that you would run. So your best salespeople tend to be introverts. Your best salespeople really cringe at all that banging of the gong and high-fiving and all that stuff. They'll go along with it but they have to go relax and then try to kind of rest afterwards because that stuff hurts when you're an introvert. It really does. It's like, "Oh my God, I have to do that." And yet introverts tend to make the very best salespeople and on your staff, they tend to have the most thoughtful observations. After all, they have thinking time. They're introverts, right?
Corey Frank (18:24):
Yes. Yes.
Chris Beall (18:25):
They get their energy from kind of inside, from what's going on inside. So I think that's flattening. I'll call it the Zoom flattening that's occurred is a good thing. And that everybody tends to get to speak, they're all in the same office, right? It's also in each person's phone, which has got an interesting intimacy. Some folks complain, "Oh, the kids walk behind. I had to take a moment." But that's the good stuff. That's the human stuff.
That's where we soften up with regard to each other sufficiently to maybe tell our own truth or to listen to somebody a little bit differently because until we're empathetic, we're not much. And it's hard not to be empathetic with somebody who's got the same problems that you have, the problems of home.
In the big office, I don't have any problems. You come into my office with all the staff, meaning you sit there and you sit there, you sit there. The pecking order is established by all of that. We go in a certain order. The important stuff is first. The dog meat stuff is at the end. And if we run out of time, you don't get to talk. Whoever you happen to be, you weren't important because you're probably the introvert who had the most valuable thing to say.
Corey Frank (19:37):
That's right.
Chris Beall (19:37):
So I think we've gotten a lot of good, not just in the raw productivity that Prodoscore is measuring and that Microsoft is measuring in Microsoft workplace analytics. They measure definite productivity increase in meaningful activity from work from home. That's at the individual level, nobody's come up yet and measured what's happening at the socio-cultural level with regard to what I'll call the Zoom egalitarianism and the Zoom flattening. I am going to make a prediction that when somebody does this work, they're going to find out that introverts are making a bigger contribution than they used to and a bigger contribution than the extroverts.
Only 9% of all MQ's (marketing qualified leads) every result in a conversation. Worse than that, you have now stimulated your target audience to explore and investigate your competition. 91% of all marketing dollars are a waste. This is because Sales only contacts a prospect two times, rather than the 6 times requested or required. That leaves 91% for your competitors to speak to. But the good news is, everyone else is doing the same thing. It may all work out.
----more----
Sales says the lack of reach means low-quality leads. Marketing says good targeting means good quality leads, but without feedback, they'll never know. Marketing says, "You know, those salespeople, they won't talk to our leads!" Sales says, "Your leads suck!" which is translated to "we can't reach them. The best leads are those who are busy and important. The easy ones to reach aren't the best leads, yet sales is asking for precisely that - leads that are easy to reach.
What you really want are the ones that are most likely to need, value, pay fair prices for what you have and work with you and your team to solve their problems.
Don't mistake the dog who comes up and licks your hand with the one who will defend your house. Tune in to this episode to hear a story about single malt whiskey, the mother liquor, and leakage to the distillery across the road.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:35):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the Sage of sales, Chris Beall with all things market dominant-oriented. So today, Chris, we were chatting a little bit yesterday after your appearance on Sales 3.0, with our friend Gerhard. So we can certainly talk about that, but I think a little piece of peanut butter that was stuck to the roof of our mouth that you and I kind of riffed on before this was this topic of sales and marketing alignment. You're very kind and you let me wax philosophical for a while, a few minutes. You're an excellent listener. And then you very respectfully and gracefully said, "You know, Corey, sales and marketing alignment is a myth." And I said, "Well, that's a topic for our podcast." What do you mean by that, Chris, sales and marketing is a myth? I thought sales and marketing alignment is the goal as the reality companies like serious decisions make a living off of that type of data. So let's start there.
Chris Beall (01:38):
Yeah, it's, it's kind of funny. I mean, sales and marketing alignment as an issue has an assumption. And the assumption is actually the inverse assumption. That is, if sales and marketing were aligned, and by sales and marketing alignment people mean, do they share the same goals, do they have the same metrics, do the metrics interlock? So if marketing does their thing and they do as much of their thing is they have committed to the company to do, and if sales does their thing and they do enough with marketing's leads that they generate, their marketing qualified leads, as they've committed to do, then all good things happen. But there's one good thing that doesn't happen. And that is information flow coming back from sales attempts to turn marketing qualified leads into actual sales opportunities and marketing's attempts to go out and get more marketing qualified leads. That is it's an open loop process. And the reason it's an open loop process is twofold. One is just raw and that is only about 9% at maximum of marketing qualified leads if I'm QL has ever spoken with ever have an actual human conversation.
Corey Frank (02:50):
Wait, wait, wait, I just want to make sure my mic is on properly. Did you say 9%? How'd you get to 9%? It sounds like a very specific number. You didn't say the crispy align now doesn't say around something, he says specifically 9%. So I'm sure there's a mathematical formula behind that.
Chris Beall (03:07):
There is, and there's also a set of observations. I want us to ask John Neeson, this question. I called him up. John Neeson's one of the founders of Sirius Decisions. I was a customer/client, I suppose what you'd call us. And we were having fun talking about a bunch of things with the Sirius Decision folks, Jason Heckel in particular christening the connect and sell weapon as the Iron Man suit of business, which I really liked. And I think we continue to riff on that through the years that I think Jerry Hill talks about this a lot of the Avengers, there's only one who actually just human, like the rest of us and that's that's Tony Stark. And what does he do? He puts on the Iron Man suit. And yet he is the one most likely to save your planet when it's in trouble or whatever it is Avengers do for a living.
Chris Beall (03:53):
I've been enjoying the relationship with Sirius Decisions, but I really felt like I wasn't getting a lot of fresh information during this one period. This was a long time ago. And so I called up John Neeson and I said, "Hey, John, I got a question. I've done this kind of work in my head." And I had, it had been from 1:00 in the morning until about 2:30 in the morning, lying there in bed, calculating in my little pea brain. And I have a number in mind. And I'm wondering if the number has anything to do with what you're observing. And the number I'm curious about is what is the conversation coverage of MQL? So of marketing's output in terms of lead in particular? What is the maximum conversation coverage you've ever seen as a firm among your clients? And he said 9%. And I said, "That's interesting because my theoretical maximum is 9%."
Chris Beall (04:43):
And he said, "Well, how do you calculate your way to 9%?" I said, "Oh, it's easy." The policy for most sales groups that are doing anything with inbound leads is they're going to call them to try to get a conversation. And they're going to call them six times. The fact is they call them two times and each one of those calls has a one in 22 chance of generating a conversation. So 2 in 22 is 1 in 11, right? And 1 in 11 is well, 9%. It's actually a slightly different number, but close enough, if you start throwing all them decimal points out there, people get [inaudible 00:05:24]. 9% it is. And I asked him, "Is this for real? You don't ever see anybody with 36% or 21% or whatever." He says, "No, no." And I asked him, "Does that mean what I think it means?"
Chris Beall (05:37):
And he said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, does that mean that 91% of all marketing budgets are pure waste?" And there was a long pause and he said, "I would prefer not to answer that question." So, that was where the conversation ended. And I agreed with him answering that question wouldn't be good for anybody. But I thought about it, and I came up with this analogy and I had just been with the family to Scotland. And we'd been over to the Isle of Skye and you know, Corey, I do not despise a good single malt whiskey that comes my way.
Corey Frank (06:12):
At least three fingers, four fingers. Yes.
Chris Beall (06:15):
I don't turn up my nose at it. In fact, I tend to put my nose fairly close to it as part of the process of enjoying it. And we'd been over to the Isle of Skye and visited the Talisker Distillery. And, a nice family event, both of my boys were old enough to visit the Talisker Distillery at that point, just barely. Had they been in the U.S. this wouldn't have worked out so great, but we were in Scotland. So it was just fine. So we drove down one of those little, one lane roads, the kind where you have to pull off to let somebody go by and they have the big poles that are showing you in the distance, the distance being about two or 300 yards away where the next pull-off is. We went down to the Bay, came back, went to the Talisker Distillery and watched them making the Talisker.
Chris Beall (06:59):
And they make it in two buildings. So in one building, they have, what is really beer, I suppose they call it the mother liquor. And, mind you, I'm no expert on this stuff. I know how to drink it, but I don't know how to make it, right? So they have this little machine that's grinding up the the grain in question and they're malting it and they're doing whatever they do. And then they're taking that product in pipe, the pipe goes up and across the ceiling and through a hole and it goes into another building. I asked why. And they said, "Well, the mother liquor doesn't explode, but the still sometimes do." Well, that's good. So you keep that in another building, so you minimize your losses, right?
Chris Beall (07:38):
And I thought about it and this 9% thing. And I thought, okay, so here's the mother liquor. It goes up, it's pumped up across this pipe. And it goes over there to the stills. And it's turned into this really, really valuable product by the pound. A good single malt whiskey is pretty valuable product for something that is mostly water. Well, actually at that point, it's not mostly water. The 57 degree North is actually mostly alcohol, but regardless it goes up and goes across. And I was thinking about it and thinking, so if I had looked up there and instead of seeing that pristine pipe without a single drip coming off, then going over there, and instead of 91% of the mother liquor was pouring out on the floor, do you think, I'd say we have an alignment problem. Of course I wouldn't. I'd say we have a leakage problem for us. [crosstalk 00:08:21]
Chris Beall (08:21):
And do we know how good the mother liquor is, if only 9% of it's getting over there. What if the leakage is not at random? Or even what if it is at random? So, how do we know how good the product is unless we can actually use the product. And so here we have a wonderful product for all we know, which is marketing's contribution in terms of MQLs and sales does turn their nose up at it by and large. And they do it because people are hard to reach.
Chris Beall (09:51):
They actually do it for the same reason. It's as though, when the mother liquor got over there, you wouldn't even put it in the still because it's liquid. And you don't want to put a liquid in there. But that's the nature of it. It's the nature of interesting people who are worth talking with that they're hard to reach. In fact, the more interesting and valuable they are, the harder they are to reach because [crosstalk 00:10:10] people are busy. It's so simple that the mother liquor is liquid, important people are busy, and this is not accepted by the individual sales rep who says the following, "I tried to call them. They didn't answer. They must not like us. They must be disqualified." So you think of the idea of disqualifying an inbound because they didn't answer the phone is very popular and applied to 91% of all inbounds at random. But it's worse than random.
Chris Beall (10:46):
It's actually selectively applied to those that are the best. So the best leads are the ones least spoken to because they're the most important people, and they're the most busy people. So the way I came up with that 9% was, as I said, that the policy is always calling six times. The policy is in the hands of the reps and the reps call them twice, if they call them twice. If they're not busy taking a call somewhere else in order to make some sort of a ridiculous activity number. Guess what, by the way? When you do call somebody and you do get ahold of them, they tend to also still be busy. So there is a problem though, and the problem is not any efficiency problem or any of those kinds of problems. The problem is that it makes an open loop process. So your entire marketing budget's purpose is to generate MQLs that might be of value. And to convert them, you have to talk to them. You can't not talk to them. And B2B, nobody does business with you without talking to somebody. So without talking to them, they go away. They leave.
Corey Frank (11:49):
So the purpose of marketing is to do what again?
Chris Beall (11:52):
Is to generate leads, which are contacts with people who are potentially worth talking with.
Corey Frank (11:58):
So when I thought you said. For who, for you? Or for your competitors, because you had an interesting riff the other day when we talked about this, that the majority of the marketing expense. 91% not only are pure waste, but that 91% of the marketing budget for your team is likely contributing to the success of your competitor. I think you were riffing about.
Chris Beall (12:26):
Oh yeah,
Corey Frank (12:26):
Because it was very compelling.
Chris Beall (12:27):
Well, think about it. You've stimulated somebody at this moment to take action. You're out of your mind if you think the only action they took was to come to your website. That doesn't happen. Anybody who is interested in addition to being interested in whatever brilliant piece of content you put out there, your white paper, your this, your that the other thing, right? If they're interested, if they're worthwhile in the question of whether somebody can help them solve a problem. Now, you might have zero competitors and no other way to help solve the problem. None whatsoever. That's possible. That's probably not a very interesting business. I mean, even we have competitors here at ConnectAndSell for what they're worth. So, what happens when you stimulate action? When somebody starts to take action, they're more inclined to continue to take action. Until they take action, they're pretty inclined to do nothing.
Chris Beall (13:19):
I just was asked by some piece of software to take action that involved getting my phone and seeing some digits that were on it so I could do a two factor authentication. But I didn't do that because I was here about to start talking with you. Now, the chances of me taking that action have gone to zero, right? Had I done that, that action would have been followed by other actions because once you start taking action there's action momentum. You do one thing after another. So here you've stimulated somebody to take the action of checking out you and your competitors. [crosstalk 00:13:53] And now you chose to not speak with them other than working for your competitor at that point.
Corey Frank (14:00):
So to further your analogy of going to Scotland, it's as if that leakage that you saw overhead was somehow being directed to the Macallan factory that the frog or the, the NSC or wherever else that extra mother liquor is going to some other competitor. They're generated it, they put the facility in place. They have the people who are putting in the raw materials, but it's just going right downstream to fill in somebody else's coffers.
Chris Beall (14:34):
Yeah. And not only that, it's going downstream, probably in a pipe that somebody put together and there's a tour bus out there waiting me to the other distillery to buy their stuff. Yeah, it's really pretty appalling. And the only good news is everybody's doing it. And so, you know, you get lucky, right? You get lucky because if my 9% is fighting everybody else's 9%, then maybe we're all going to do okay. So maybe I'll, [crosstalk 00:14:59] maybe all I'm doing is wasting 91% of all the dollars. Now, if you're a venture finance company, then that means that you're giving up that additional part of your company to the venture finance folks. So you're actually, you're giving away the company. The multiple of revenue you would've gotten as valuation that you're giving up by having that 9% be 9%, instead of say 60%. 60% is actually achievable.
Chris Beall (15:25):
Very straightforward. So let's say you had 60%. What does that times nine that's, roughly speaking, [inaudible 00:15:33] so here I got the 60%, right? It's not quite seven. And so I got, I would have seven times more revenue, assuming everything's linear. Assuming that there's no special thing about the 91% you're not talking to. Turns out there is, they are better than the 9% you're talking to. But say there weren't a special thing. Say they worked better. So they're just the same. So now the just the same times six you could have had, but you chose not to have that, right? So that means the valuation impact of your marketing budget, which is often 20, 25, 30% of your company's entire budget to what you were hoping for, which is maybe, I don't know if you're a SAS company, there'd be four or five, six, seven times revenue, right?
Chris Beall (16:19):
So now you're giving that up. So say it's six times and you're giving it up at six times revenue, right? So you're giving up $36 for every dollar you fail to talk to, so to speak. You spend a dollar on marketing, you fail to talk to them, and you give up 36 bucks evaluation and you do it in the name of increasing valuation by spending money on marketing. So the response is to keep spending on marketing and keep spending on sales at the top of the funnel where you're overspending also probably by a factor of six, because you're not talking to enough people. And then when that doesn't work, you go and you talk to the experts and say, "How can I get sales and marketing on the same page?" It doesn't matter...
Corey Frank (16:58):
Or worse. Let's keep hiring sales reps because we have an abundance of marketing leads, or so they think. But they're really only being attempted once or twice.
Chris Beall (17:09):
Yes. Yeah. And remember always it's the conversation flow rate, the flow rate of relevant conversations that drives the value of a business and drives its move into a marketplace that it wants to dominate. It is never anything else other than the flow rate of relevant conversations. And what do you have to do with them? You have to make them quality conversations. How do you do that? You focus on psychology, not on product. How do you do that? You build trust. We've we've been through all of that kind of stuff, right? Build trust in the first seven seconds, don't blow it over the rest of the relationship. There's a bunch of things you can do, but until you speak with them, can't do any of those things. So you're either going to waste money, spin your wheels. Literally it's like spinning your wheels, smell the smoke, join the squealing and then put up with grief because your marketing people are going to say the following, "You know those salespeople, I think, we'll talk to our leads." And the sales people are going to say, "Well, the leads suck." By suck, the salespeople mean I can't get ahold of them, right? And, by great, the marketing people mean they're about as relevant as we can make them, given the information that we have.
Chris Beall (18:15):
So they're talking about two completely different things. The misalignment actually isn't the definition of something completely different. Sales says lack of reach. I can't get ahold of them is low quality. Marketing says good targeting. As far as we can tell, it was high quality. Without the feedback flew from coming from conversations, marketing, we'll never know if they're telling the truth. And without talking to those prospects, those leads, sales will never know if they were any good.
Corey Frank (18:46):
So how do you fix it?
Chris Beall (18:50):
Talk to them, [crosstalk 00:18:50] talk to them. I mean, it's pretty simple: talk to him. And you're not going to talk to all of them. But talk to the ones that will talk with you.
Chris Beall (18:57):
So sure enough, you, you want to send them emails and do all that good stuff and you're going to harvest whatever you're going to harvest. By the way, your competitor's doing exactly that. You want to win where your competitor is not winning. You want to take what they got, fight them over there, right? Take the freebies. The free part of the market for you to dominate are all those folks your competitors are not talking to. So the ones that answer the phone generally, the first time they're called, maybe everybody gets those. The ones where it takes two calls, maybe a 50% of everybody gets those. Now we're down to the ones that takes three or four. Now we're down to the busy people. The more navigated phone calls it takes to get ahold of somebody, the more valuable they are as a takeaway from your competitor, because your competitor is not going to go down there.
Chris Beall (19:44):
My climbing partner, Jim Hagar, I used to used to go hiking and climbing a lot in your neck of the woods, except up North. Up in grand Canyon. So we'd go down in there and wander around, go down one of those trails, like the hermit trail. And I go over and see whether we could climb something ridiculous like this thing called the Monument. Don't ever go climb the Monument, by the way. It's rotten at the base and scariest all get out, but we'd go around looking for opportunities to stand on the summit of things, pointlessly and look around and say how beautiful it was. And then make ourselves shake in our little climbing shoes as we were felled off some crappy anchor that we managed to put together up there. And we noticed something really obvious, but it's the same phenomenon. As you're coming back up out of Grand Canyon, you run into a line and we called it the flip-flop line.
Chris Beall (20:34):
And the flip-flop line is the farthest the tourists will go down into Grand Canyon. And it's comically close to the rim. Now, thank God for the tourists. It's close to the rim because that is a dangerous place down there, especially when it's hot. You are on the rim, you're at whatever that is, 6,000 feet, 7,000 feet. Everything's great. You start down, it gets hotter and hotter and hotter and a lot of tourists tend to show up. And some times a year that are pretty hot and they're galled into it and I would go down. But fortunately, most of them turn around by what we call the flip-flop line. All the beautiful places, all the cool places are way past the flip-flop line. So we had those to ourselves. We had market dominance when it came to the most beautiful parts of Grand Canyon and as consumers of that beauty and of the fear that came with it, we wanted that dominance.
Chris Beall (21:29):
So we were very happy that our competition, which was the tourists who'd come out of the tour buses would only go down to the flip-flop line, which by the way, it was just past a half a mile down into the Canyon. And so you've got to go about 11 miles down the Bright Angel Trail to get down to the bottom or 6.2 if I remember correctly off the top of my head. This is going back a few years here, of course. [crosstalk 00:21:52] Going down the South Kaibab Trail. That's the rule. Now of course, if you went out to one of the least frequent of trail heads, that is, you've got a great marketing department that goes where the other people don't go, flip-flop lines, right at the top. Nobody even goes down those, right? So the more valuable the resource. In that case, the beauty of the Canyon, in this case, those really good prospects, those leads that are hard to get ahold of. The more valuable they are, the less likely you are to talk to them.
Chris Beall (22:22):
And now you get a skewed marketing signal back from sales. Sales will accidentally tell marketing the following, "Go get more of the ones that are easy to reach." That's what they'll say.
Corey Frank (22:34):
That's right.
Chris Beall (22:35):
But that's not what you want. What you want are the ones that are worth the most, that are most likely to need what you have to offer, value it, as it should be valued, pay a fair price for it, and, best of all, work with you and your team to get the maximum value out of it, so they'll become a great reference. And they will work with you and for you to help you dominate the market. So it's all perverse. Where 'is it easy' as being mistaken for 'is an important', which I believe a lot of people do in almost every area of their life. But in this one, that's particularly devastating. When applied to [inaudible 00:23:13]
Corey Frank (23:14):
It is common nature, human nature to say, listen, I confuse sometimes activity with kicking butts. And if I'm a sales rep and I'm getting a lot of low margin, high volume, one bagger, easy type of leads that are closed and converted, I get a pat on the head from my sales manager. My sales manager gets a pat on the head from the director and so on up the food chain. And we somehow think probably from a false positive perspective that we're actually dominating our market, we're well on our way, we're beating our numbers. But what I hear you saying is that, listen, clearly there are different flavors of customers based off of margin or ideal customer profile, which is a misnomer as, as it is, which is a conversation we can have too, one of these days.
Corey Frank (24:04):
And so the more rich the nectar, the flavor is deeper and those tough to reach prospects are worth it. That's where the gushers are. Those are the market makers. Those are the clients that are the influencers that have the reciprocal effect to tissue and the direction of market dominance. So don't necessarily be fooled at the early stage when you can convert a lot of the quote-unquote easier. In other words, your sales conversion rates may be too high early on, and that may not necessarily be a positive.
Chris Beall (24:42):
Yeah, there's a problem with low hanging fruit. Everybody else can pick it too. [crosstalk 00:24:48] It's hard to compete based on being the best, low hanging fruit kicker in the world. Sure. You got to go get it. No reason not to, but you make market dominance happen a little farther up the tree. Now we have a situation just like you referred to where one of our very, very best customers in some ways, our very, very, very best customer I connected to. And if I look back and I have looked back over the amount of time it took to get the first conversation, to have that conversation, and to have the followup conversation of the followup, to the followup, the followup to the followup, and then finally the meeting and then it got harder. And I will never forget until I forget everything. I have it strongly in my memory, a five-hour conversation that I had with two people at that company that went through Thanksgiving dinner. Three hours on one side and two hours on the other side.
Chris Beall (25:47):
And I was talking to him the whole time and I finally finished and came down and said, "I'm glad that Turkey's just as good, cold as warm cause that's how I'm going to be eating it." But it was worthwhile. And maybe somebody else wouldn't have had that conversation. Maybe they would have been more sane than me, but the best customers tend to be the ones who asked the most questions, who are most interested in exploring most deeply. And they also tend to be the ones who are most busy.
Chris Beall (26:17):
There's actually a correlation. It's a soft correlation, but it's a legit correlation between hard to reach and important and between good customer and not so easy. And so there's a lot of let's go the easy way in sales. There's also the flip, which we've talked about, which is the dog trying to get through the chain link fence to get to the meat and sort of backing up and seeing that there's a gate. So I'm not advocating being stupid and just mulling your way through every situation. So be circumspect. Think about it. Stand back every once in a while, look at your situation. But don't mistake the dog that comes up and licks your hand for the one that's going to defend your house.
Part 2 of the interview with SADA CEO, Tony Safoian. Questions answered include How is Google going to support my enterprise business better than its competitors. Needs have changed, demand for "bat phone" support is now part of any proposal. Every customer is different in their behavior than they were four months ago. If you're an organization that doesn't know how to meet your customer where they are now, your organization is dead.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Chris Beall (00:34):
Welcome everybody to another episode of The Market Dominance Guys with your host, Corey Frank, and with me, as always, is the sage of sales, Chris Beall. Today we have the CEO of SADA, Tony Safoian.
Tony Safoian (00:47):
It's not even about, like, is this point solution from this vendor better than that vendor, is the cloud thing real. It's, what is the transformational impact and outcome to my business. If I choose Google versus somebody else, how is Google, as an enterprise, going to support me versus somebody else? And I think that's never been truer or more compressed in the context of digital transformation, as we're facing right now, because every customer is different in their behavior than they were four months ago. So if you're an organization that does not know how to meet your customer where they are, which is online, or in their, home or whatever, then your business model is dead.
Chris Beall (01:32):
We don't have many guests, but when we do, we have the best.
Corey Frank (01:36):
Of course, the name of this podcast is The Market Dominance Guys. We have to talk some market dominance, but Chris, I think you'd agree that what Tony... And Tony, certainly, you're in a business and in a market that you're not just competing with the other non-Google-Cloud providers, you're competing with other Google Cloud providers.
How do you square that circle, as you see, because clearly Sada is it can bud here from a market dominance perspective. And maybe, what thoughts would you have, Chris, for Tony, on market dominance when you kind of have that split sector, if you will, where he doesn't have just one guy with a mask, you got a couple of different folks from different areas, all gunning for Assata here.
Chris Beall (02:15):
Well, my advice is always the same, which is manufacture trust to pace and scale, harvest the market at your leisure, stay sincere. That's kind of it. I mean, if you have the goods and you have the will, you really don't have to add a lot of ingredients. If you're the most trusted, which always starts with the human conversation and then it moves forward by doing what you said you were going to do. And then it moves forward further by how you handle the first crisis together with that customer, because that's the eye of the needle in every relationship, is when it goes through the crisis, whatever that crisis is.
You know, if you do those things, you create a god-awful problem for your competitors. And it's a simple problem. It has to at the asymmetry of trust, once somebody trusts you, they automatically distrust anybody who tries to displace that trust they have in you. So the cycle time to go from stranger to trusted friend, from invisible, scary stranger to trusted stranger, the quicker you can make that cycle time, and the more often you can apply it, the more insurance you buy at the lowest conceivable price.
You want to insure any company against the vagaries of time, so to speak, where things happen that we don't expect, like the occasional pandemic, and there'll be another thing we don't expect. There's scandals, there's everything else in the world that happens, right? Bad stuff is always out there waiting to happen. How do you ensure yourself against that? Well, the currency of insurance for a business is trust. It's not true in the consumer world. This is the asymmetry consumers buy based on what's going to work for them, and the risk is generally their money.
So I buy that Tesla and I take it off the lot. And I discover one day in that I hate it. Unlikely, by the way, because all my friends who own Teslas have the opposite experience, but I'm going along, I bring that thing home and I just go, oh, I didn't even know, I live in a house without electricity. I can't even charge this thing, right, to own this vehicle. What am I going to do? I have to buy one of those Peloton things and generate electricity for it? I'm here in the Pacific Northwest. We don't have sunshine. I can't even do solar. I guess I got to dump the Tesla, right? So I go to dump the Tesla. What am I out? Five grand, 10 grand. It's just money.
I do the same thing for my company. It doesn't matter what my job is. I buy the company Tesla and it turned out to be a disaster. It doesn't matter if I'm a CEO, I'm toasted. My reputation has hurt and I've put my retirement in risk. I've put my future work in other companies that might want to hire me after this one blows me out for making that idiot decision. I might go into the doghouse somewhere and not be allowed to make any more decisions. Worse than being fired, in the penalty box and a company that is one of the worst place in the world to live.
I got put in there in 1996 in August. I quit three days later. You don't want to live in the penalty box, trust me. To me, it always comes down to this. It is so scary to buy a B2B. And what Tony's company sells, what SADA sells, is the single scariest thing you can buy in the current world, which is a decision to go or not go to the Cloud. It's not really who you go with. It's a decision to grow or not go. It is so scary.
When you've asked your IT people any question over the last 10 years to do anything of interest to anybody in the business, their answer has always been no. They have 157 different ways of saying no. You could build the matrix. It will take you a long time to go through it, but they're all no. That's what they're going to say, right? So now, you're trying to get a yes all the way around because anything can break.
So it's the scariest decision. So they have to trust you, Tony, really it's you, more than they trust themselves. How did they get to that point of trusting you more than they trust themselves? Well, a whole bunch of them trust your people. Your engineers, that's tied to them, that they've met, that they've had a conversation with. That salesperson introduced them to and they were nervous about it, and they thought it was going to be crap, and you thought you were going to be insincere, and that you had another agenda, and blah, blah, blah. Right? All that stuff had to be overcome. Engineers are the most skeptical people on earth, and Missouri is so taxed so high with engineers I'm amazed there are anywhere else. It's just the show me, you've shown me, show me, show me, right?
Tony Safoian (06:32):
You're right on. And the and the factor of trust, which is, again, the last two years, especially, is what Thomas Kurian and Company has really worked on building with customers, existing and prospective customers. Because you're right, these decision-makers and their entire teams, they're betting their career on this dice roll. And needs to not feel like a dice roll. It needs to be clearly the best decision.
And it also happens to be... What we're discovering is we're being pulled up market. And there was one article that mentions a particular dollar amount for Manheim in New York. Not only are they betting their career, they are betting their company, a lot of these digital natives, right? And a lot of the enterprise. I mean, Manheim's $50 million commitment to Google Cloud? There's not going to be a bigger economic commitment that this company will make ever than it's bet financial bet and strategic bet on Google Cloud. That is a tremendous amount of responsibility if you're SADA and you're signing your contract.
Chris Beall (07:32):
Now, I did it, by the way. I bet my company on Google Cloud and on SADA. We move 14 production systems. You know how many production systems we have? 14. We moved them all. That means certain large companies that depend on us... We had one the other day, they called us up at 6:29 in the evening on a Sunday and said, "PPP loans are going to be released by Congress on Tuesday. We'd like to put 335 new people on Connect and sell tomorrow, and have 75,000 conversations next week. Can we do it?"
If one of my Cloud instantiations of ConnectAndSell can't handle that, I've just said yes to the CEO of one the most powerful companies in the world about something he really cares about. They ended up talking to 98,000 people that week out of the 75,000. They had 98,000 conversations.
Tony Safoian (08:28):
Wow.
Chris Beall (08:28):
It was a successful week. I didn't worry a bit. Okay, so maybe I had a half an ounce of blends that evening stared out the window for a moment, and contemplated the world. But I didn't worry any more than that, that the trust that I've put in Tony and his team in a Google cloud was going to result in a good outcome. I know what it feels like to bet a company on you. I've done it. And it's not the company like my internal infrastructure. It's a company like this-
Tony Safoian (08:59):
It's a whole company.
Chris Beall (09:00):
...what we deliver on. It's the whole company. When that's gone, we have literally nothing.
Chris Beall (10:01):
We don't exist anymore.
Corey Frank (10:03):
So Chris, it's not just all pragmatism, and cold cognition, and facts, and data sheets, and speeds, and feeds. There's an element. And Tony, you had mentioned this in your VP of sales, right? There has to be an element in the culture to create this certainty, to create this trust. So how do you instill that? What have you done to teach that? How does that work? Because Chris, I've known Chris for almost 20 years, he's not exactly an easy sell. And if there's more than one choice, I am sure there was a matrix that Chris has had. So in order to cross that chasm and get him from the cold cognition to the feeling of trust and competency is no easy task. How did you do that? And how do you do that at scale?
Tony Safoian (10:45):
The scale is the tough part, right, because as any business grows, you hire many, many more people. And now, I mean, everybody's distributed, but imagine you're in a traditional cadence, you're growing up markets, you're paying people thousands of miles away from headquarters, and you're trying to export that culture, and methodology, and way of thinking, and allow people to have their market idiosyncrasies. And they need to. Yes, Quebec is very different than Chicago, and they should have a little bit of their own culture. But I think it's first and foremost, having a culture and a proven track record that is recognizable and credible.
You can point to SADA turns 20 years old on August 16th. We've been growing at 65% KGR, or whatever, for the last 15 years. And the people you have leading the charge are themselves credible and trustworthy. So when they hire, enable people, and put them through the school of Joe Kosco, or the school of Dana Berg, or the school of Miles Berg, or the school of Rokita or [inaudible 00:11:40], they are going to create an amplification effect of what is their essence, of what has made them successful to date, right?
Getting the credibility with customers at scale... And here's another beautiful part about cloud, and you could argue ConnectAndSell itself is a Cloud service, and it is. The ability for customers to put vendors in a position that they have to prove and earn credibility over time is a relatively new construct in the world of enterprise software. Because back in the day, customers could do a proof of concept of some kind. It was almost never production grade. It was almost always full of smoke and mirrors. And that ended up in a massive, multi-year, very expensive commitment that you were stuck with for three to five years, and that you paid for upfront.
And I think, 90% of the time, the plethora of what you bought and never got implemented. I think what's beautiful about ConnectAndSell as a SAS platform, or Google Cloud in general, is that we can actually engage with customers with very heavy pre-sales engineering effort, and resources, and enterprise class methodology.
Sometimes we charge for that, sometimes we don't, sometimes Google funds it, whatever. You're not trying to minimize effort at that stage. We're actually trying to maximize effort. You can do a POC where you have to validate what you're proposing in a small, low-risk environment. It happens in almost every sell cycle, especially with customers that have a distinct desired outcome. They're like "Oh, Google Cloud can do this and your engineers can deliver that? Show me in the small sandbox."
And you actually go and do it, Corey. The beauty that when you do it, and then you win the hearts and minds of moving one workload or one system, you have to keep proving it. But the beauty of the business model in cloud, and in SAS... And as Chris's customer called and said, I want to put this many more agents on and make this many more calls... Our expectations with every one of our customers, if we continue to prove value over their lifetime, their consumption, and therefore our revenues related to that customer will continue to grow at a pace that gives us the investment capacity to give the customer more and more attention over time, but also just clearly aligns incentives.
Meaning we have to be there. What if something happened on that weekend, or on that Monday, and ConnectAndSell did have a problem. GCP did have a hiccup and Chris had to call me or my head of support. How responsive are we going to be? Are we going to use the bad phone with Google to fix Chris's problem because he has his credibility on the line. We get tested over and over again for the lifetime of that customer relationship, which was very much not like how enterprise software was delivered before.
Chris Beall (14:10):
I agree. I mean, enterprise software and shelfware have been synonymous forever. It always would have been cheaper to go ahead and just pay the license fee and not even try to implement because you were going to fail anyway. You were never going to get to the finish line. And now that's no longer the paradigm. And I think folks are shifting to, and have to shift competitively, to a do it together and then make the decision as whether you're going to partner together.
Cory's doing this in his business. He's got the first ever what you might think of as an outsource sales business, cold calling as a service or whatever, that's ever existed on the face of the earth, where a fully transparent, full production experience, much like your team experienced with ConnectAndSell but he's doing it, coming up with the message, putting the people in.
He had guys in an RV last week parked outside the building so that they could come in at 5:00 AM on a... I kind of think of it as a competitive test drive with four similar companies to him and the end customer, all seeing how many meetings they could set-
Tony Safoian (15:12):
Wow.
Chris Beall (15:12):
...in a day. And Corey wanted to make sure that this team had a little psychological advantage. So they started at 5:00 AM. and by the time the next team came on, these guys had already settled up in meetings. They said 41 out of 40, which when you're playing against four other competitors, you get 31 of the points that are available on the board. It's actually kind of a done deal, right? Think about that, an old business like appointment setting, the transformation in that business that has now taken place with Youngblood Works is this. They will actually do a full production test drive up, but with results as the idea, and they'll do it with you watching with full transparency.
So it does keep rolling into older and older parts of the business world that it turns out doing is much more important than saying, and giving PowerPoint presentations, and making claims, and having testimonials that may or may not be completely valid, and all that kind of stuff. All those things still happen, but I think we've entered a doing as part of selling... And not part of, that is the essential part, doing together before we partner together. I think that's kind of like do together before we partnered together and make something measurable happen that we can all look at, feel like this makes sense. Now let's go a little bigger.
Tony Safoian (16:37):
And to your earlier point around trust, it might actually end up that it's not the right thing to move forward. That you shouldn't buy this from me, and that's okay.
Chris Beall (16:45):
It is okay. We only convert 37% of our test drives. That's about the right number, as far as I'm concerned. That's something I learned a long time ago in the math world, when you're sampling, if you're not getting into false positives, your samples aren't very good. When you think you're perfect... People try to build sales funnels and at the very top of funnel they go, "I only want ideal customers coming in." Well, you can't discover their ideal customers until you have a conversation with them. So we had a chicken and egg problem here. I better have more conversations than there are ideal customers, or I'm leaving the very best one.
Corey Frank (17:19):
The one that we use, and I've used for a long time... And again, I'm at the floor of Grand Canyon University right now, which is the largest Christian University in the country, so I think this is an appropriate aphorism here, is that Jesus Christ was the best sales person that ever lived. And he didn't close everybody. And he had a better product, arguably, than any software, or ERP, or Cloud-based system. And so the Son of Man himself will not have a hundred percent close rates. So because of that, Chris, you're absolutely right. 37% of your conversions on your test drive, that's admirable. Maybe JC himself would probably have 38 or 40% and that's exactly how it should be in nature.
Chris Beall (18:00):
Many are called, but few are chosen. Well, I guess we've come to the end of what looks like an hour. Tony, this has just been exactly better than I even thought and I thought it was going to be tremendous. Thank you so much for coming onto Market Dominance Guys. We don't have many guests, but when we do, we have the best.
Tony Safoian (18:19):
Wow. Thank you. I don't know if I deserve that, but it was a pleasure. It was fun to be on this side. Let me tell you, we try to put out podcasts weekly and it's nice. It's a relief. It's fun to be on this side, where you get to be the guests. And Corey, it was a pleasure to get interviewed by you. Loved your questions. And I can't wait to listen to your episode.
The rate of growth SADA has experienced gives them credibility when their CEO, Tony Safoian explains that in order to scale you have to manufacture trust at pace.
SADA does one thing exceptionally well, they transform companies into a cloud solution partnering with Google. Yes, that's paraphrasing, but as a Google Cloud Premier Partner, SADA Systems has gained global accolades as an exceptional service provider with proven expertise in enterprise consulting, cloud platform migration, custom application development, managed services, user adoption, and change management. They do what they do REALLY well. They do it so well that ConnectAndSell turned to them to move from AWS to a better solution on the Google platform.
Learn from Tony in this episode of Market Dominance Guys, then join us for the next episode where Corey and Chris continue the conversation.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:34):
So welcome everybody to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Corey Frank, and with me, as always is the Sage of Sales, Chris Beall. And Chris, you know that we don't do this often, but when we do, it's usually because we run out of things to talk about. No, it's usually because we have a interesting, compelling, face melting guests that usually has something to offer to the community, which is growing every day. And today we have the CEO of SADA, Tony Safoian. Tony, did I pronounced that correctly.
Tony Safoian (01:09):
Perfectly, Corey.
Corey Frank (01:11):
Great. Tony, as the CEO of SADA is able to lasso all the mystery and complexity and value of the Cloud, where all the bags of money and blood live in a world without... and we're all laughing, we'll talk about the key word that we use there in a minute. But Tony runs one of the top Cloud consultancy service providers in the world. In fact, I think, Tony, wasn't it a year or two ago that you were Google's Top Cloud Partner of the Year. I think it was, so as modest as I'm sure you are, Chris and I, like to get the accolades out of the way at the top. So I think Chris, turn it over to you, how did you meet Tony and why, because we talk about a lot of folks we come in contact with in our world, that Tony should be in the hot seat for the Market Dominance Guys today?
Chris Beall (02:06):
Well, I just got lucky. I'm a customer of SADAs, made a big decision to move from AWS to Google Cloud, based on the fact that the Google Cloud folks will actually join in with us and help with the marketing, and ultimately, maybe, even the co-selling of our product, which is something we didn't see out of the other guys. And it provided another bunch of wonderful things, too, cost savings and superior technologies, superior speed. You know how speed centric we are, we're really speed centric. So we had a great experience working with SADA, effectively, as the folks who brought us into Google Cloud. So they were our vehicles, so to speak, to get there and get there successfully, and very quickly. We moved 14 production systems over there in a matter of a few weeks. And then the great-great insane, good fortune of getting to go down to Austin and participate in a test drive of ConnectAndSell with Tony's team.
And I can only report, it was a riot. It was really fun. They killed it. There were dead bodies everywhere. Talk about blood. There was blood on the floor, it was flowing. They actually, unlike test drives, they didn't just do it, but they made money to do it, I believe.
Corey Frank (02:06):
Really.
Chris Beall (03:22):
I'll have to leave it to Tony to say if they really made money doing it. And so now we're each other's customers. And then he kindly invited me onto his podcast, Cloud N Clear, and we had a lot of fun there. And so I got to tell all my stories there, but Tony didn't-
Corey Frank (03:35):
Oh, love it [crosstalk 00:03:35]-
Chris Beall (03:35):
... get to tell all his story. So now it's your turn, Tony, how did we get into this craziness? Tell us [crosstalk 00:03:42]-
Tony Safoian (03:43):
I don't know. I love the hot seat, that's all I got to say. Thank you for inviting me.
Chris Beall (03:47):
We're lucky. We're lucky to have you.
Corey Frank (03:49):
And I'm curious, Tony, when you saw a weapon like ConnectAndSell in the test drive, I always like to get into the blood and guts and of the dials and the epiphany and the exponential amazement that happens as it creeps across the floor, as people realize you can talk to more than one person an hour or so. So that was kind of where the test drive was, and what are seeing thus far? And in a business perspective, I'm just always curious to see a little bit of Inside Baseball of how you've been able to adapt to this new type of a weapon that you have on board?
Tony Safoian (04:23):
So to be able to independently source pipeline in the Google cloud ecosystem is not a trivial task. We've been partnering with Google for 14 years, now, for many of those years, us and the rest of the Google ecosystem was completely dependent on the Google sales organization to introduce them to customers. And we knew this was a risk. We knew that it was, maybe us not being the best possible partner in the world, meaning delivering value at that part of the value chain at the pipeline side. So a few years ago, we started doing marketing pretty well and developed some inside sales capacity capability, but 12 months ago or so, we had the desire, 10X that impact. We went out on this journey to build the most prolific, active, successful, most active inside sales dedicated organization, really, for the first time.
And we found this gentlemen, Billy France, who is well known by Chris, to say the least, he has this incredible team has built from scratch 15, 20 folks. And they use a lot of traditional tools and methodologies, and they were very, very good at it. And some of it is a wide net and other part of their approach is very, very targeted. And in a short amount of time, we started breaking all sorts of records. Nobody at Google in the ecosystem had sourced the amount of pipeline, the number of opportunities. And these are very well vetted, they have to be submitted into a platform that Google has to approve and the field has to okay, and validate that, yes, this is a new opportunity. Yes, it's qualified.
So there's a lot of rigor behind it. So the pressure I was putting on Billy was immense, and of course he was delivering, and Matthew on his team, just a great add to his leadership structure and all of that. But they were seeking the best tools in the business, period, because these days it's important to be multichannel. It's important to build great content and awareness, but nothing is as powerful as the phone call. And there just has never been a very efficient way to do this, especially now when people don't pick up the phone. I don't think I have a phone. Do you pick up the phone? I generally don't pick up the phone.
So when this concept of this platform, which on the surface is like, well, this is not inexpensive, in nominal terms, this is an enterprise class investment. When the premise behind the technology was revealed and Billy was so gung-ho, I mean, he was so gung-ho, he was like, "We have to do this." Matthew's like, "We have to do this. It's game-changing." I was like, "Really? It's 2020, what do you mean game-changing? You mean there's something that hasn't been done? How's it possible? Enterprise sales have been around forever."
And then, of course, I got to know Chris better, and he explained even farther, the genesis of the platform. I know that at that test drive that we did, and by the way, it was in Austin, near the Google offices, we had Google folks come in from the Cloud organization, field sales managers, and sellers kind of joined in, like, what is this spectacle that is about to happen? I mean, it was an unbelievable experience for that team. They felt super human. They felt emboldened. They felt powerful, productive, and they just could not believe the efficiency behind it. And Chris and I talked about this on my podcast, but the adrenaline rush, man, the adrenaline rush, somebody picking up that phone, and you have a few seconds to ensure that they stay right?
Corey Frank (07:54):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tony Safoian (07:55):
It's almost like the ROS form of sales, execution ability, which so many of us have forgotten, but actually, that's how I cut my teeth at a dotcom in the late '90s, early 2000s. I went from being extremely fearful of the phone to loving it in the early days, and a platform like ConnectAndSell, that took a lot of that efficiency out, the ROI is just... it was unbelievable. So of course, we're a big customer ConnectAndSell, ConnectAndSell is a big customer of ours and Google Cloud. And I look at people like you, Corey and Chris, and I'm grateful that this level of thought leadership exists and is happening, and it's in the ether and we're talking about it. Because I think without pipeline, none of us could be in business, that's where it all starts.
Corey Frank (08:41):
Without pipeline and without trust-based conversations. Chris, I think it's worth repeating, I know Tony, you're a believer just like I am, but Chris, the number of bits in a phone call versus everybody talks about cold calling is dead. How many episodes have we dedicated to that? How many LinkedIn posts, Tony, do you see, cold calling is dead? I think there was another rash of them this particular week of this insanity. But when it comes to trust-based conversations, Chris, I always try to poke the bear and get you to riff and wax loquacious here about the value of a phone call versus a simple email, just from a scientific, from a bits per second perspective. So, maybe that would be helpful for the audience, setting the stage, and since you already have two believers in me and Tony, here on the line, too.
Chris Beall (09:24):
They got to access all of their company's information, which has a bunch of bits, and they have to do it with a bunch of computer programs, which has another bunch of bits, and they got to do it without having a breakdown in all that happening. Well, if all the bits are behind a wall, isn't it funny that we call those firewalls? Like, what's trying to get at my bits is a fire that's going to burn down the house. It kind of is though, if you just let anybody, in bad things happen. But when you keep everybody out, bad things happen. And you get the bits outside in a safe place, where they're accessible by everybody, including folks working from home, the bits can participate in saving the economy.
And by the way, this is something I truly believe has happened. I think it's happening right now. I think it's not recognized widely that it's happening, and companies that Tony's team is working with, are kind of getting it. Tony told me the other day, those who didn't move to the Cloud are kind of wishing that they had, right?
Tony Safoian (09:24):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (10:20):
So it's always about [crosstalk 00:10:22]-
Tony Safoian (10:22):
Big time.
Chris Beall (10:23):
... here's the simple info, an email fully read email, carefully, read, somebody's thinking about it while they're reading it, has about 5,000 bits of information on it. That is one quarter of one second of a live human conversation on the phone, quarter of a second is 5,000 bits, and it takes a lot of bits, not to get somebody to know what you know, but to believe that you care enough about them, that they're going to trust you with their secrets. And that's what sales is all about, is getting somebody to trust you with their secrets, because their secrets are pain, and nobody wants to share their pain with the world.
So it's the same thing as the Cloud. The Cloud itself, I believe, has saved the economy. I think it should get the Nobel Peace Prize, the Nobel Prize for Economics. The Cloud should be Man of the Year on Time Magazine, if the had magazines, but [crosstalk 00:11:20]-
Tony Safoian (10:23):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (11:19):
... now. The Cloud should be all those things. And the fact is the human voice is the one thing that carries enough information, I'll call it, in the other Cloud, because the long distance phone calling was the original Cloud. It was the Cloud that made the latter part of the 20th century work, where we could actually talk to people far away and do business with them, because they could trust us. So the long distance phone call was the second Cloud. The first Cloud was the telegraph, and then came along to the phone, which wasn't a Cloud, because you were always behind the firewall of being just local phone calls.
And then it got released, and became the Cloud. And then that Cloud contracted inside of voicemail, 2003, '04, '04, and has had a hard time getting out, that's our job. But then Google, and there are other folks that they're similar to, provided sort of the next generation, except it was the long distance phone call for every application, every system, every archive who worked together with the human beings all over the earth, in an unlimited way. And it's saved the economy, it literally has. And I think we should like do this.
Tony Safoian (12:30):
Cannot disagree. Cannot disagree. I think it's quite remarkable.
Chris Beall (12:36):
I mean, to me, Tony, you guys are on a mission that is interesting, because at one level is so nuts and bolts, it's so... I mean talk about workloads, a workload is a workload is a workload is not a workload. It's not trivial stuff. Everything in the world of software and everything in the world of hardware as a result, is tangled up together. They don't call it spaghetti code for nothing.
Tony Safoian (13:01):
That's right.
Chris Beall (13:02):
It's all tangled up and you have to help folks get that stuff up from where it is, where it's all stuck and glued into all these different systems, and nobody even remembers how they're tangled up, and help that come out and move to a place where it's all accessible by people like me, working from home. What was the key? Why are you guys so good at it? Because it's one of the hardest things in the world. Selling it is one thing, but you guys have to actually do it. Why did you embark on such a crazy adventure?
Tony Safoian (14:30):
Part of it is, I think, just being on the right side of history for a long period of time. As you both know, selling and delivering something you don't believe in is a very hard endeavor. So when the Cloud started to become a thing in the mid-2000s, and we had a very on-premise related view of the world, like everyone else did, when a thought started to come together, it wasn't a debate for us, whether or not that's where it's all going to end up eventually.
So just creating a culture around that journey started with email, it was the first thing we worked on. 2006, '07, '08, '09, then went to maps and geolocation services, then enterprise search, and then voice link to the Cloud. It was like, "Look, this is going to the Cloud." And then on-premise, custom applications and the data center was next, and there's four trillion dollars worth of this stuff out there, in the old paradigm, and I think, if you get the general methodology of what the journey to the Cloud looks like, yes, it's in part technical, but a lot of it is cultural.
So if you get the cultural piece, right, like, yes, this is a difficult decision for customers to make. It is something that engineers that work at our customers are either afraid of or unaccustomed to. And so, that's part of the work streams. It's not just convincing the CIO or the CTO or VP of Engineering that this is a good idea, but we need these engineers to come along.
In the early days, when we used to migrate email, the biggest barrier was, the team that ran the email backup exchange administrators were like, "We don't want to move to the Cloud. Our whole job is defined by this box that's sitting here." So just 100X that, and that's sort of the modern data center migration conversation. Engineers are an interesting bunch to recruit, to nurture, to retain, to motivate. They want to do cool stuff and they want to work with other exceptional engineers. So bringing in, just over a year ago, now, the best CT on the planet we could find, which is the gentleman who ran the global solutions architect team at Google for five years, and he did that also at AWS, four years prior to that, was a huge step forward for us, in terms of engineering culture within SADA.
And of course, now, other top engineers that are interested in this space, just want to work in that orbit, so recruiting engineers actually has never been easier for SADA. But even prior to that, we understood that engineers are generally not like salespeople at all, and they're not like a lot of other folks within any companies, they're not coin operated. You can't say, "I'll pay you more, if you move faster." Or, "I'll pay more, if you stay." That's actually almost irrelevant to most engineers, it's, there's a hygiene factor of comp and benefits and all that stuff, but they want to work around other engineers they admire for their engineering ability and acumen and experience and contribution to open source and other things that engineers kind of measure each other by, but they also want to do meaningful work at the edge of technology innovation.
So that's why, when we go into a typical customer who has engineers, and let's say this customer is not very tech forward, those engineers are bored. They've gone in to maintenance mode. Maybe, they're building some cool things. But our approach is, well, our engineers are on the outside, we see hundreds of environments, tackle the most complex challenges, so we come in with a different perspective of experience. But where the SADA approach in the market is different is that we compete in the enterprise at a space that's been traditionally dominated by the global systems integrators and the outsourcers. And the way they like to engage with customers is they want to come in and replace those people. They want you to outsource this thing to them.
And we come in with an orientation of, I don't have a 100 people I can put on staff there for three years, I have four ninjas, who are the or the best in what they do, with project management and program management, and then all these other folks, they're going to come in, help you get started on this journey, lay the critical foundation of security and architecture and make sure it's all done right, and then spend a lot of time on the enablement piece, so that your engineers, which they will surprise you, are going to get enabled to take you most of the rest of the way.
And I think customers really resonates to that. Engineers that we've ended up having to work with at our customer sites, love the opportunity to go get certified and learn big query or Kubernetes or whatever it is, Anthos. And then our engineers go in and they see the direct impact on those people's lives, and also the company that we just helped transform, and it just fills them with tons of fulfillment and meaning in the work. And I think that's where we have to continue to win as an organization. We have to have a tremendous amount of exceptional engineers.
Because the selling side, I love how you always frame it, which is value at every interaction. And if your intent is pure, and it is, you're there to help. In aggregate, there's actually unlimited demand for the work that the Cloud providers do, and then the partners do. In fact, globally, the demand greatly exceeds the supply of all the engineers in the world and all the partners like SADA that could do this work. So having that meaningful conversation after you get good at it, that's not going to be, ultimately, the limiting factor in a customer's journey. It's going to be other things like their trust, do they trust you? Can you really save them money? Are you on their side? Are you going to be there for the next five to 10 years to support them in this path? And that trust really starts with that first phone call.
Chris Beall (20:22):
That's fascinating. This whole question of culture is something that's discussed a lot. The culture and its role in digital transformation of all kinds as much discussed here at the dinner table. This is what we talk about. Now, my fiance's talk that she gives publicly is about how, in her journey of trying to figure out what digital transformation is really about, what are the constraints, what she discovered the constraint is always culture. I mean, enabling technology, so to speak, is always culture and cultural change.
It's fascinating to me that you've delved into engineering culture, both as a supplier of engineering culture and a consumer of it in a funny way. That is, you consume your customer's engineering culture as an input to your process. It's fascinating. I've never heard it described like that before. As an old, I don't know if I'm an engineer, I'm one of those guys who's written more than a million lines of code, and I still don't think I ever became an engineer. I don't know how that happens, but it does sometimes happen in the world. I don't think I ever had that mindset completely. But that one piece that you talk about, which is what Deming used to talk about, people work for pride of workmanship, not for cash compensation or anything else. And even sales people do. Believe it or not, sales... I mean, we all have to know this right, really, sales people who say they're coin-operated, I'm sure, never are. They just never are. They're just trying to hide behind that shield, so that they don't have to be accountable for what they would prefer not to be accountable.
Tony Safoian (22:00):
So they don't have to update the CRM system.
Chris Beall (22:00):
Exactly.
Corey Frank (22:00):
That's true. Yep, that's right.
Chris Beall (22:06):
Which would keep them from having to do anyway, so that's all right. That's quite something. So where in that process, you described where you got to, and the big draw of the Cloud is out there. I had the same experience, I think, in 1983, when I knew that Unix was going to take over the commercial computing world. And I quit my job, and I did my first startup, which was a Unix-based ERP system written from scratch.
Tony Safoian (22:31):
Wow.
Chris Beall (22:31):
So that was like, it was [crosstalk 00:22:32]-
Tony Safoian (22:33):
That not ambition at all Chris. That's not ambition.
Chris Beall (22:35):
I had an orange crate to put on, so it was quite comfortable. At little terminals banging away, we built our own relational database management system from scratch, from the ground up, from bits. And went after that, but why? Because you didn't have to be a genius to figure out that that glow in the East that you can't read by yet is eventually going to bake the landscape. Whatever that thing is, it's got to be really bright to be glowing that much before it gets up over the horizon. And the Cloud must have felt like that to you, way back in the early 2000s. As long as you don't go out of business and you agree to operate internally by principles that are sufficiently deep, that you're not going to end up having no keel and being blown every which way, you sort of can't lose. Now, you guys have gone way beyond can't lose, sort of gone into the magic place. Is that how you felt? Or were there moments along the journey when it's like, yeah, I get that we can't lose, but we could lose.
Tony Safoian (23:40):
I think it's healthy to operate in this infinite game mindset, which Simon Sinek talks about, and I'm a huge fan of his. We're just sort of visitors into this time and place of enterprise software sales or sales or technology, whatever you call this space. And we're players in the game, and if you think in infinite terms, it's not a game that has a finite end or some kind of scoreboard that you can point to at the end of a quarter or a half or the season, and say we won or lost, per se. So I think with this mindset, that, look, we're blessed and we know we're blessed, and we're so fortunate to be in an environment that's growing, in a market is growing 50, 60%, anyway, that has unlimited demand, essentially. We're on the right side of history and we have a little bit of a headstart, that we really just only have to focus on getting incrementally better every day.
If we get incrementally better every day in the areas that become clear to us by virtue of enough customer conversations or internal debates or feedback and input from Google, et cetera, we shouldn't really ever have to exit the game. And that's actually, when you lose an infinite game, the closest definition to losing a game like this is exiting the game. Simon Sinek makes a lot of references to, I don't love war analogies, but he calls it like the Vietnam War, or let's say the Cold War. The biggest mistake that the United States made, when the Berlin Wall fell down, is thinking that they won the Cold War. It never stopped. So as Corey said, it's almost like, so what that we want the Global Seller of the Year award two years in a row, it's not like game over. It's actually so early in this transformation journey that I don't know if we can win because it's an infinite game, but we certainly can mess up.
And if we do, shame on us, because I feel like most of the destiny is clearly in our hands. And I think a lot of that has to do with a lot of humility and self-awareness, but certainly a focus on just customer obsession, a focus on incremental improvement, reinvestment, which a lot of business founders, especially bootstrap business founders or others, forget. I think the part that we're well beyond, as you're defining it, is we're well beyond the lifestyle business. It's no longer about, what's in it for me. This is like, we have this amazing opportunity to make something big in a way that's never been done before, and, boy, can we impact thousands of lives and hundreds of companies, if we do it right.
Corey Frank (26:19):
Well, I think if you look at where the Cloud is, is that it's maybe started out where it's not, like you say, "I don't believe in gravity." Well, because gravity believes in you, right?
Tony Safoian (26:31):
Right.
Corey Frank (26:31):
You could say, "Well, I don't believe in taking my servers and moving them out into the Cloud, because of extra security or why, et cetera." Well, the Cloud believes in you and it's going to zap you up. So how much, Tony, would you say now versus early on versus today, you were probably doing a lot of educational advocacy, educational missionary work, and they were maybe crying and screaming to move versus today, you may have more of, "Hey, here's my specs I need in order to move"? and you've probably seen that on an X and Y axis, probably, move a little bit less, but nevertheless, I know a lot of the fun and the culture, especially what you're seeing in the engineers, is still in the educational advocacy, the thought leadership that a company like SADA plays.
So how do you kind of balance that, where you have kind of the laggards who are coming, but you still have the cool kids who are the early adopters, who are your core clients, and constituency at SADA that want you to say, "Okay, what's next, Tony? What's next? What's next?" And to balance those two on the curve from the late adopters to the visionaries has got to be a challenge.
Tony Safoian (27:35):
It's a challenge, and the work there is changing, but Corey, we're very accustomed to working in a environment where we knew and had complete conviction on what the right destination was going to be. But we've operated in a period of some level of doubt for at least 15 years. So in the beginning, to your point, mid to late 2000s, it was, you were selling the customer on the premise of Cloud. You were trying to convince them that cloud was not a fad, that it was here to stay. And back then with email, in higher education, if you believed in Cloud, the answer was Google, because they were the only ones doing it. So it wasn't like... We weren't so much selling Gmail to universities, we were just convincing them this it's not a fad. And then, Microsoft got their acts together in the Cloud, then we have these two disparate businesses, and there was still a lot of like, "Well, which one's better than that?" Or, "When do I make this migration?"
But in the early days of partnering with Google, you can imagine, that that was not, that Cloud was real, because, okay, fine. Amazon proved Cloud was real. Salesforce proved Cloud is real. And now, even we believe in Cloud now, but is Google really cloud? Are they serious about the enterprise, because they're really an ads business? We've dealt with that for many, many, many years, and in the last, certainly two years with Thomas Kurian coming on board, and Rob Enslins, Kirsten Kliphouse, and Janet Kennedy here in North America. I don't think... Really, since Diane Greene arrived and consolidated things and built this great 13,000 employee organization within Google, that was the Cloud, we haven't gotten that objection so much anymore. But now the conversation is, okay, we know the Cloud is real and Google is serious, but Google is number three.
And we're like, yes, that's true, but it's so early. And they have the best technology. And as engineers, it seems obvious to us that customers should always just pick the best technology. And probably if you're Google, which has consumer roots, you're accustomed to a market dynamic that always shakes out such that the best technology wins. Google Maps won, because it was better than MapQuest, simple. Gmail was better than Hotmail. There's no selling, there's no training or there's no migration, it just happens. Now, Instagram. Consumer technology is always defined by, look, just make the best stuff, you'll get the most users. And I was talking to Janet Kennedy yesterday, who runs US and Canada, and she's been through like the IBM enterprise days and the Microsoft enterprise days.
And she was at IBM, early days, when it was like, OS/2 versus a Windows NT, and IBM had this big campaign of like, NT stands for not there. IBM arguably had... OS/2 was way better than windows, technically, and that's just one story. There's been story after story, and Chris has been in the industry for a long time. It's very often the case that the best technology has not won. So what is the conversation with the customer today, and what TK and all these sort of enterprise experts who are coming into the space are realizing and are helping partners execute the same way, which is, it's really about risk. That's how the enterprise buys. Yes, they want transformation, but nobody wants to lose their job for picking Google. They don't care if it's the best technology. They'll take the third best technology, if it means that their decision will not be questioned. So how do you have those transformational conversations?
It has to do... Yes, you have to be at least as... pretty much every time. But what about your commercial contracting ability? What about your enterprise support? What about professional services? What about product roadmap? What about my direct access to Google executives or SADA executives? That's what the enterprise engagement today looks like. And Google's also gotten smarter and more capable, since TK has arrived, to have a much broader strategic conversation with the largest customers. If you look at Activision going Google, that was not about, oh, you can run Call of Duty in our data centers versus yours, and that's better. It might be better, yes. This is about, we're going to transform gaming, with Stadia and everything else, and YouTube, and we are going to have a comprehensive strategy to transform Activision's business. Saber, Deutsche Bank, these 10 year, multi-billion dollar deals, that's about completely revolutionizing the banking experience for customers at Deutsche Bank.
And them being able to do with the data, things that they just could not do for the last a 100 years, running on mainframes. Sabre was like, transforming the travel experience from the moment you're searching for your flight on google.com. Not about, oh, you should move out of this data center and go to that data center. So I think more and more that's what customers are looking for, at least in the enterprise, or it's not even about, is this point solution from this vendor better than that vendor? Is the Cloud thing real? It's like, what is the transformational impact and outcome to my business, if I choose Google versus somebody else? How is Google as an enterprise going to support me versus somebody else?
And I think that's never been truer or more compressed in the context of digital transformation as we're facing right now, because every customer is different in their behavior than they were four months ago. So, if you're an organization that does not know how to meet your customer where they are, which is online or in their home or whatever, then your business model is dead.
Chris Beall (33:14):
We don't have many guests, but when we do, we have the best.
This episode of Market Dominance Guys starts with Chris recapping the numbers from the previous episode on the tremendous infusion of savings Work From Home creates as knowledge workers are no longer required to go into an office to be productive. Quite the opposite. The data supports they are as much as 47% more productive working from home - ending the commute economy.
----more----
After the recap, Corey and Chris talk about the other aspects and concerns of potentially returning to the office, why it's a bad and wasteful idea and how we can all benefit by allowing knowledge workers to continue to work from home.
Join us for this episode of Market Dominance Guys - All Mitigation is Untested - Work from home or return to the office?
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
This episode of Market Dominance Guys starts with Chris recapping the numbers from the previous episode on the tremendous infusion of savings work from home creates. As knowledge workers are no longer required to go into an office to be productive, quite the opposite. The data supports that they are as much as 47% more productive working from home ending the commute economy. After the recap, Corey and Chris, talk about the other aspects and concerns of potentially returning to the office, why it's a bad and wasteful idea, and how we can all benefit by allowing knowledge workers to continue to work from home. Join us for this episode of Market Dominance Guys, all mitigation is untested work from home or returned to the office.
Chris Beall (01:24):
So 48 million knowledge workers commuting for a little less than an hour a day each, that's 210 hours a year. It is a lot of labor hours. It's about 10 billion labor hours, and a 50 bucks an hour that's about $500 billion of waste time. And then you add on top of that at the standard government reimbursement rate of 57.5 cents a mile, how much they drive and that driving per year is about 7,000 miles. Again, multiply that by those 48 million people, and you get an additional $194 billion approximately. So it's really quite a bit that's being wasted entirely on commuting. And you add those numbers together and then throwing something like childcare. Say 40% have childcare costs and at $8 an hour for that commute time, that adds another 32 billion plus dollars. And you get about $731 billion of waste right there, just on the knowledge workers commuting. That's their labor hours. That's the cost of the commute itself and I threw in one childcare thing for 40% of them.
And then look at the rest of the workforce. There's 62 million people, approximately commuting in the rest of the workforce. They're going to be kind of $35-an-hour labor. And that's it an awful lot of commute hours per day. That's 53 million, almost 54 million commute hours. And so say they got a 25% improvement from all those knowledge workers being off the freeways and off the streets and out of the parking. Now you're down to a pretty big number again, $114 billion of additional savings in total. It comes up to about $846 billion. That's already being saved directly by commuters in the form of labor and in the form of expenses.
Corey Frank (03:38):
For a company who is struggling thinking about moving their team to a work-from-home model. Oftentimes the gate is open, the spreadsheet I think that you walked us through here is just walk around the gate, "Come on in the water's fine." The downside that a lot of the hesitancy that a lot of companies would push back on Chris is the culture and the continuity and the three-pound brain. There is some benefit from being next to another three-pound brain. And that's my feeling of involvement by feeling of social status and things of that nature. And I think we had a lot of those could probably get addressed if they listened to last week's episode with Sushi Paremo and the wonderful culture that he's building with his organizations. But what do you say to that just briefly when you know, "Okay, I can go around the gate. I see the hard costs. It makes sense from a P&L from an EBITDA perspective but man, there is real atomic weight from that three-pound brain being next to another three-pound brain."
Chris Beall (04:50):
Well, we're going to have to try it for a while because going back to the office is expensive and dangerous. In fact, dangerous in a funny way. And the plaintiff's bar is itching to go after an employer who forces people to come to the office and watch these people get sick. I mean, they're armed and ready to go. And anybody who's familiar with how the plaintiff's bar works and how class action works knows what is about to happen. So folks voluntarily coming back in, still there's some legal risks just is, because who knows what assurances you may have inadvertently provided. What warning labels you might've had to have, what mitigations you could have done that you failed to do and not knowing about them by the way, might not be a defense. So you're about to learn something auto manufacturers have known for a long time, which is that you're responsible for safety if you offer something where there are safety issues that are different from what was expected. And since no one knows what to expect, this could be problematic for anybody who's bringing folks back.
Secondly, every mitigation is untested. There are no tested mitigations. I saw a beautiful article in the Puget Sound Business Journal that showed a picture, an infographic, and it showed the 11 mitigations that you should consider before you bring people back to the office. And they were things like coming in with the new HPAC system that had different kinds of filtering and it circulated air differently. Really? For a year and a half or two years of benefit. I mean, if you're going to bring them back, okay, but really new HPAC so that the three-pound brains can sit next to each other, but not infect each other. Do you think anybody's ever tested that? I don't think anybody's ever tested that, right?
Not one of these mitigations has been tested. Coffee machines that you operate with your smartphone. I don't think anybody's ever done laboratory testing or in real-life testing of the impact of that on respiratory virus transmission, right? So this is just stuff people are going on and they're kind of waving their hands and saying bup, bup, bup, bup. I remember there was a finger on the scale, which is the other side of those big leases. So you should expect to see a lot of stories about how essential it is and possible it is to bring people back into the office. But I tell you from a scientific perspective, again, all 11 of those mitigations have got to be done and all 11 have got to work and then you have to not get a little bad luck. Well, it turns out they stood next to somebody in the Starbucks downstairs. And so it's unlikely, you're going to have to learn to live with it anyway. Culturally, what do you do? I know in sales, what you do, it's simple. For your sales team, nothing is more energizing than talking to people.
Corey Frank (07:52):
That's correct.
Chris Beall (07:53):
This is our team today. And here's an SDR that's talked to 25 decision makers. So at one meeting, so they had a moment of excitement at 14 followups, it's Friday. People tend to be a little busy on Friday. I got two referrals and had five minutes and 24 seconds after pushing the button on average, before he talked to somebody. Josh Philemon did. And I'm sure during that time he was doing something else that's useful. So it's kind of funny. We talk about culture. Culture is about ping pong tables or it's about, I don't know, drinking beer in the conference room or whatever it happens to be, which I think people gave up a while ago too, for safety reasons.
So the fact of matter is people, as Damon told us, they worked for pride and workmanship and if they have good work to do, and they're having fun doing it, and they're being managed in a way that's fair and reasonable and encouraging, then the core of culture is there. And that's the number one thing, is work culture actually can be about work and it can be about what somebody loves to do. If you're in sales, you hopefully love to talk with people. And so if you're with my team today, they've talked to 168 people as you see down here.
Corey Frank (09:13):
Wow.
Chris Beall (09:13):
That's a lot of conversations, right? Here's is what also is culturally kind of good about this. They didn't have to make those 5,655 frustrating dials and navigate those phone systems, that was done for them. So that's kind of pleasant. And then another thing is people like to be able to help. And they like to be helped. If you need help, you're stuck. You need to learn if somebody notices you need help and there's a lot of ways to do that. So say your boss or your coach could come in and say, "You know what? This guy, Sean McLaren, he's our chairman. Man, he's got a lot of busy callbacks today."
By the way Sean McLaren really is our executive chairman who really does talk to people. "So today he had six conversations inside one meeting. That's pretty good, but he's having a hard time keeping people on the phone. I wonder if Sean's got issues today? Is it a little slow or is his voice bad? This one can't be corrected? It's a minute-long conversation. So maybe he just coded it wrong. These are short. I have a feeling if I listened to one and we're not going to do that right now, respect for Sean's awesomeness. But hey, if Sean needed a little help, just thinking about his state of mind today, his mood or whatever, then you we can help him."
And then here's another thing is it's fun to do work that counts. It's not much fun to do work. That doesn't count. So today this team it's $5,655. And now it's gone out by a couple, it's only three in the afternoon after all. Would that have been culturally marvelous for them to just go under voicemail 1,825 times today or navigated to voicemail 1,567 times? Or been told by a gatekeeper, "I'm sorry Corey is not in today." I am not available. None of that looks like fun. So culturally that's part of it.
Now the rest of it is this, human beings actually don't have a sense of smell like the other animals and they have the other mammals. So your dog can smell you across town and I'm speaking literally here. I had a dog once that freaked out, and ran off in a thunderstorm and she went all the way back up to our mountain home, which was 17 miles away of complex navigation involving roads and trails and God knows what. And she went to every neighbor's house and sort of knocked on the door to check, to see if we were there because we were out of town. Imagine that.
Corey Frank (11:53):
Well, she knows that there's a bunch of Milk-Bones on the other side of the fence. That's probably why that she could get to.
Chris Beall (11:59):
Exactly. Well, what was she really doing? She was following a scent trail and that she had mapped a scent map, not a trail. She had mapped the scent. She'd only been up and down that road one time in her life. And the one time up one time down. That was it. This is a dog never been to town before, before we moved to town. So she remembered how to get back to that complex mountain home by knowing the smell of everything along the way. So dogs are really, really good at this. And you go to the airport, they don't have a trained human who's going up and down in the security line, sniffing everybody that have a dog, right?
Corey Frank (12:34):
Right.
Chris Beall (12:35):
Humans are not the most brilliant in the world at smell on each other and figuring out if they're sincere or to be trusted but we are geniuses like dogs will never be at hearing each other's voices and seeing each other's faces. And the voice and the face are the two ways that we express ourselves in terms of what really counts, which is do I care about? And if you want to have a great culture, let your people know you care about them and let them tell you, they care about you and about the mission. And then you just do it natural ways, in the normal course of business, like getting on these Zooms, by just talking on the phone, everybody in your company who is physically capable of hearing and seeing, and that's not everybody I get it, that's really tough for folks who have vision problems and hearing problems.
But of the rest, of the mass of folks at your company who don't, they're so good at interpreting sincerity and good intentions and meaningful direction from tone of voice. For the same reasons, cold calling works, it's possible and easy to project fantastic culture to a remote workforce. And in fact, you have more time to do it during the two hours you would have had commuting. Let's break it down, I have a team in North America personally of 28 people. So in two hours, how many, five-minute conversations are there? There's 24, that's pretty cool. Think about that. That's 24 times that I can spend having five-minute conversations. And in those five minutes, each one of those minutes, here each second is carrying 20,000 bits of emotional information. Terabytes of emotionally-important information can be transmitted. Having meetings where everybody gets to participate. This is one of the beauties of Zoom.
In a standard conference call, the standard of conference room participation is dominated by the physically most dominant person. They stand, they take over the room, they interrupt, they talk, they go to the whiteboard, they dominate. In a hybrid where there's a speakerphone in the desk or the table in the conference room, you get a two-tier economy, a two-tier culture, people in the room and the people in the mushroom. People in the mushroom don't have a shot. They don't exist. They will never have the floor in any significant way.
On a regular conference call, just voice only. It's tricky. You need a good moderator, but in a Zoom call, it's so natural. Everybody sees each other's face. And normally the contribution level for person goes way up and people feel more included. So I think making an inclusive culture is actually easier. And some of the biases that we have about people are a little, shall we say, muted in this environment and biases are not the greatest thing in the world. So I actually-
Corey Frank (15:42):
... happened 10 years ago, then you could argue that the urgency to go back to the commuter economy would have been so much more urgent, but because the tech stack is so much more in place and plumbed and accepted that there really isn't many excuses to go back to the way were.
Chris Beall (16:03):
When you work the numbers, it says, "Don't do it." When you work the culture it's says, "Don't do it." If your work productivity it says, "Don't do it." We solved this problem a long time ago. We would never have designed it like we had it. Clogged cities with roads you can't get through on. People frustrated, not seeing their children, not getting enough exercise, not eating well, stopping at the bar on the way home, sucking down the lattes because they're bored. Let's face it. That was not healthy. It wasn't economically healthy and it wasn't otherwise healthy. Then it's tragic what's going on with all the cases of people getting sick people dying. But I do believe that a bunch of people worked hard to create a situation where we can work from anywhere and we can contribute to society no matter who we are.
I believe there'll be a next wave that we haven't even touched yet, which is inclusiveness across society. There are so many smart people who don't contribute, don't get to contribute because they don't live where the rich businesses are. And I've done some experiments around that about back in 1991 and '92, that proved to me for sure that there is no difference in talent among all of our different communities that we have in this country or anywhere in the world. And I think one of the side effects of work-from-home and work-from-anywhere is going to be that more people are going to find great careers as knowledge workers who are currently being left out. And I think that's another wave that's coming and nobody's seeing it coming.
Corey Frank (17:44):
That's great. Okay. Well, we have a topic to discuss for next time. In the meantime, I'm going go search for my share of the $7.5 trillion that you say is buried somewhere in the Ether and the virtual couch cushions of America. So until next time [inaudible 00:18:01].
Chris Beall (18:03):
... talk to you later.
Corey Frank (18:05):
Beautiful. Thanks, Chris.
There's a whole bunch of commuters that are used to driving to cities. And I think it would be good and very timely talk a little bit about some of the things that we've learned and this massive economy that is forming from the non-commuter economy, the non-commuter economic forces. Chris will perhaps give us a little bit of hope, as far as what the trends are with this new stay at home economy.
----more----
In downtown Seattle, there are office buildings and those office buildings right now are pretty much empty as of today, July 14, 2020. And a lot of people thought this whole COVID thing would be over by now. I think with a record number of cases per day coming in or individual states like Florida are now number four in the world is where the country is. There's a kind of sobering up going on with regard to what’s happening. One of the interesting things is that we talked about it a little before is that the big companies always lead the way on this sort of thing for a bunch of reasons.
One is they've got the best information.
Two, they've got the best lawyers and their lawyers advise them as to what's why somewhat safe to do.
Three, they can often work the numbers better than the rest of us. And so what to us might be a small saving to them can be quite material.
Here's what we have today, roughly 48 million knowledge workers in America and they used to commute by car about 26 minutes each way.
So that's .87 hours of car time commuting. Anybody who's lived near a big city and commutes knows that is an understatement. That's just over 200 hours spent commuting by car which adds up to about 10 billion hours for those 48 million knowledge workers.
This has been time boldly wasted.
Commuting and that multiplied by the $50 an hour that most knowledge workers are paid, which clearly is less than they're worth and nobody ever gets paid what they're worth. That's $505 billion of labor that's being wasted commuting. And then if you throw in the car and just take the federal government's mileage reimbursement rate of 57 and a half cents per mile which accounts for gas, maintenance, wear and tear, tires.
And you take the number of miles committed 29 per day. It's about 6670 miles a year. That's $193 billion of commute costs and that's just raw costs again in the economy that's considered to be positive. Well, then it must have been worth it to them. But you know, it's not worth it to anymore.
Let's throw in a little something here for knowledge workers with children. This is really an illustration. It's not a huge number, but it's a big enough number. Knowledge workers with children are at about 40% and you've got to have some childcare costs averaged at $8 per hour. That alone is $33 billion.
The direct commute costs, just for the knowledge workers, which I will call pure waste is $731 billion. That's a big number. And then if you look at the rest of the commuting workforce - 62,000,000 other people and they commute about the same amount of time each way. But what if we could actually improve their commute by 25% and what if they're being paid an average or they're worth an average of $35 an hour and you multiply those numbers together with those 53,940,000 commute hours.
Times $35 an hour and you take 25% of that you get yourself another $114 billion.
And so if you had $114 billion for the non-knowledge workers up with the $731 plus billion for the knowledge workers, the direct savings, we're getting pretty close to a trillion dollars - $845 billion dollars of direct costs. It's a big, big number. And it was considered to be essential, but we just have to do this right, and it's not considering everything else is not considering the environmental impact. It's not considering the geopolitical impact and what it means to have an economy that generates such a dependency on oil which doesn't always come from exactly where you would want it to come from, neither is the money always used exactly like you would want it to be used.
Ignoring all that it's $846 billion roughly that could be saved and is being saved. Today, this isn't a suggestion or something we do in the future. This is just saying, look what happened, look what's happening right now that 813 billion dollars is effectively being put in the pockets of consumers, one way or another, mostly as their own time. But we know that people figure out a good things to do with their time - the gig economy is about that. But people they value their time and we should consider them when their time is saved. They're getting value.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:37):
Somewhere in the Northwest is Chris Beall. Chris, how are you? Good afternoon.
Chris Beall (00:42):
I'm doing great. Yes. My undisclosed location is here in Port Townsend in Washington, where one more time, I'll look up the sky there and tell you that they say the blue hole lingers longer here. And apparently it does. It's pretty sunny.
Corey Frank (00:58):
Well, that background does not look like Port Townsend. So, that is false advertising at its finest. And I have a feeling we're going to get a bait-and-switch here. Pretty soon when you get around with all of your spare time to putting up a new virtual background, but today, maybe the point of that virtual background is to talk a little bit about all those people. Because if you look over your left and your right shoulder, I can see all those little commuters and I can see all those little commuters taking the ferry and maybe driving in, maybe trying to find some parking and maybe, trying to fuddle with their face masks as they go up to the third floor and try to put their face masks back on as they go to the Starbucks.
So there's a whole bunch of commuters that are used to driving to cities much like the one over your shoulder there. And I think it would be good and very timely talk a little bit about some of the things that we've learned and this massive economy that is forming from the non-commuter economy, the non-commuter economic forces. And I think we were talking a little bit about that before we hit record here. Let's just dive right into that Chris, and see if we can maybe give them a little bit of hope as far as what the trends are with this new stay at home economy.
Chris Beall (02:13):
Coalino downtown Seattle, pretty much office buildings and those office buildings right now are pretty much empty. Today is the 14th of July 2020. A lot of people thought this whole COVID thing would be over by now. I think with record number of cases per day, coming in where individual States like Florida are now number four in the world where there're countries sobering up going on with regard to what's happening. One of the interesting things is that, we talked about it a little bit, for the big companies always lead the way on this thing for a bunch of reasons. One is they've got the best information. Two is they've got the best lawyers and their lawyers advise them as to what's wise and what's safe to do. And three, they can often work the numbers better than the rest of us. And so what to us might be a small savings to them can be quite material.
So, the big companies in the Seattle area, I'm thinking of Microsoft and Amazon in particular, but there's a lot of others have pretty much declared that work from home is going to be an option. And maybe even permanently, I know at least one of them, their official principle is number one safety and number two choice. And there was no time limit put on that. And in fact, that's one of the reasons I'm here in Port Townsend that it freed us up as a couple to move to where we would want to be together, having no concern whatsoever for the commute just having a concern for the quality of life and having to have good internet, right? That's our new highway that we commute on, but you can drive through Seattle right now at what would have been rush hour and there's no rush hour anymore.
And I think it's going to stay that way for a while. And I decided, why don't I just go ahead and I'm going to share my screen here. And Susan Finch gave us some... She did a great job on this, and it was really quite something. I had an orange spreadsheet that I put up on LinkedIn, and it actually had a pretty good sized error in it. But even when you correct the error, you still get numbers that are so big they're mind blowing. So, Hey Corey, so let's take a look here at what it really costs to commute or what it used to cost to commute for everybody, and then how much we're saving. So there's 48 million knowledge workers roughly in America and they commute by car about 26 minutes each way. So that's 0.87 hours of car time commuting. Anybody who's lived near a big city and commutes and knows that this is an understatement, but let's just take it as the number.
And so it's a little bit low, but we'll accept that's almost 200 hours. It's almost 10 billion hours of commuting, 9.568 billion hours spent. And I will say boldly wasted commuting. And that multiplied by the $50 an hour, that most knowledge workers are paid, which clearly is less than their worth, right? Nobody ever gets paid at their worth. That's $505 billion of labor that's being wasted commuting. And then if you throw in the car and just take the government's number, the federal government's mileage reimbursement rate of 57 and a half cents per mile, and you take the number of miles committed 29 per day. It's about 7,000 miles a year. That's $194 billion of commute costs, which I would call pure waste, totally not 731 billion. In the economy, that's considered to be a positive, right? Somebody spent all that money for gas, they spent all that money for wear and tear on their car and for tires and this and that.
Well, then it must have been worth it to them, but it's not worth it to you anymore or if you don't have to commute. And then I thought I'd throw in a little something here for knowledge with children. This is really an illustration. It's not a huge number, but it's a big enough number and knowledge workers with children and can say 40% have them and you've got to have some childcare costs at eight bucks an hour. That alone is $33 billion. So the direct commute costs just for the knowledge workers, which I will call pure waste, that adds another 32 billion plus dollars and you get about $731 billion of waste.
And then look at the rest of the workforce. There's 62 million people, approximately commuting and the rest of the workforce, they're going to be kind of $35 an hour labor and that's it an awful lot of commute hours per day, that's 53 million almost 54 million commute hours. And so say they got a 25% improvement from all those knowledge workers being off the freeways and off the streets and out of the parking. Now you're down to a pretty big number again, $114 billion of additional savings in total. It comes up to about $846 billion.
Corey Frank (07:03):
So if COVID has been going on, one of the bright aspects of COVID from an economic perspective is certainly that it has forced these numbers to the top and the only people that perhaps are a little bit better are the parking lots and parking attendant, parking meter and oil change workers of America here. But these are real dollars that can go back into the economy, go back into the environment, go back into industry, go back into better tool sets, better technologies to enable workers to perform probably at a higher rate at a higher productivity rate than they did even before they jumped into the steel coffin every day.
Chris Beall (07:49):
Yes, exactly. You know, getting in that 3000 pounds of steel to move your three pound brain to get it closer to somebody else's three pound brain after there are 3000 pounds of steel move that somewhere is a little bit weird when you think about it, right, as a way of getting things done, you and I didn't have to move any steel at all. And we had this conversation here today, and nobody who's listening to us had to do it either. It shows that you can exchange information and get work done. It also shows something else. That's interesting that predict something else, I'll predict that anyway. I don't know if it does, but I'll just go ahead and predict it. And that's this, that money is primarily going to end up flowing into local communities into neighborhoods, because if you're not committing to a distant place, well, by definition, you're staying in a nearby place and you'll still be buying stuff.
So the notion that you're buying more good stuff, that's of value because a big chunk of it involves your car and 26 minutes each direction really doesn't make any sense, it doesn't hold water. If you've got extra time, you're to be using that time locally, if you don't have to commute. And that means we'll have a flourishing of local businesses. And I think this whole question of what's happening with restaurants and bars and all that stuff and hair salons and so forth is you're going to see just more of them doing better in local neighborhoods and more people walking to dinner. Maybe not always eating at home like we do here, but walking to dinner or walking over to have a drink or walking over to get their hair or their claws done or whatever it is that they want to have done. Maybe even walking to get groceries like I used to do in Reno. So I think it really ends up being a flowering of neighborhoods that comes out of this.
Corey Frank (09:38):
So getting those three pound brains more collectively, more localized, it's big money, it's big business?
Chris Beall (09:44):
It is. And it's big economy. Yesterday, we've been here in port Townsend, living out in Cape George for two weeks and three days and yesterday our neighbor brought over, we just met our neighbor day before, brought over to big wonderful Dungeness crabs all cooked up and ready to eat. Now there's economic value in that. And the fact is if we were commuting, if either when my fiance or myself or commuting or on a plane right now or doing any of those things, there'd be nobody to bring those crabs to and that economic value of those two big Dungeness crabs, which by the way, were just, they're pretty delicious when they came out of the water above, I don't know 45 minutes ago, and somebody cooked them up and brought them over to your house.
That's real economy too. And I think we have forgotten a lot of the facts of economy. It's about what are called satisfied services. It's about what works for people, not just about how much money to spend for it. So there's an assumption that it's all about transacting, but sometimes it's just about doing things for each other. And people do that more when they're around each other, as neighbors than they're likely to do with the more or less strangers that are at the other end of their commute.
Corey Frank (10:54):
So I'd imagine that there's another reciprocal effect in temperament, if not blood pressure alone?
Chris Beall (11:00):
Yes. Last time I was in San Francisco, this was pre COVID. It was an hour and 42 minutes to get from Downtown out to a freeway. After that, fortunately, I only had an hour and 16 minutes home, so it wasn't too bad in a three hour commute. And that mental health thing I think is really important too, and it does come down to dollars and cents at the end. I know somebody's a member of the family works as a clinical psychologist with kids with behavior problems. And he says his caseload has dropped by more than half because kids are home with their parents and what the parents learn to do with the kids to help them out, to help their behavior can actually be a plot because the parents are there. Now think of what we spend overall on mental health and what helping kids with behavioral issues earlier in their life could do 50% maybe of an overly large number. This is just one therapist's experience, but 10% would be a pretty big number in terms of economic impact and improved mental health for the nation's children.
Chris Beall (12:57):
There is a contrarian view to all this, which is folks like to be in the office because they like to talk to people in the office. And I think that's true of some people. My guess is those are the people that are actually not there anymore when you're working from home, so that you can have this productivity gain of 47% as measured by Prodoscore. So Prodoscore is an amazing company offering an amazing product that actually measures productivity at the desktop level. And some people would say, well, clicks and sending emails and doing this and doing that. That's not a real measure of productivity. And they're thinking in the micro sense, but if you have a measurement of everybody on your team before and after the day, they want to work from home and you knew how much they did, how much did they read?
How many emails did they send? How many spreadsheets did they work on and how much did they do with and all that stuff before and after is always meaningful when it comes to productivity. While you can quibble over an individual and say, "Oh, that's just busy work." That tends to be by the way, people like me who don't work very hard and go "oh yes, I'm so brilliant that I can just sit around and produce value by getting on podcasts or something like that." In reality, before and after means a lot and Prodoscore measured before and after work from home to the day and found this surprising number of productivity gain, obviously for knowledge workers of 47%. Primarily this is speculative because those people are not dealing with what I call social Sam. Sam is a nice gender neutral name for that person who comes over to your desk four or five or six times a day.
And just has one little question or one little tidbit to share with you. So they turn your desk into their water cooler. And 47% is a big number. And when you do the numbers here, they get really big, really fast. So yes, social Sam hates it when they don't get to go to the office, they prefer a shorter commute, they sure want to have all people there to chat with, now they don't. So say those people that they want to chat with, knowledge workers generate or are associated with average revenue of $200,000 per year per employee. Again, we got the same 48 million of them. And that means that there is increased revenue potential just from that 47% increase in productivity of $4.5 trillion. Those are trillions there. I didn't get that wrong. And someday I'll tell you what a trillion dollars is in hundred dollar bills stacked up.
I guarantee you, it goes well past the orbit of the moon. It's a big number. And so, if you consider that the average gross margin of companies that employ knowledge workers is about 47% itself, that's kind of funny, isn't it? But productivity gain, average gross margins rate is about the same, so you're multiply 4.512 trillion times 47% and you get $2.12 trillion of profit dropping into those companies from the productivity gains from these workers. Now, how are they going to harvest that profit? The way you always harvest profit, that you harvest it in the form of growth, you do more, you do better or in the form of cost savings. And if there are cost savings, we know that always produces dislocations and dislocations produce economic pain for individuals that have got to be managed by something. Governments tend to manage them by pumping money into the economy.
But at the end of the day, productivity is a good thing for the economy and it's a good thing for the companies that execute in it. So now I add up the commute savings to that $2.12 plus trillion of productivity gains, and you have yourself just under $3 trillion of total impact from work from home. And if you compare it to various other things, it's a lot bigger than the stimulus of 2008 by a big margin, it's almost as much as the total outstanding debt of US companies. It's more than the college loan debt. It's some pretty big numbers here, but we come right down to it. This is the big surprising number is we stopped commuting and we're more productive on a per hour basis by the way. Now, some people will say, "well, we're working longer hours, wearing ourselves out."
That's not what this is. This is productivity gain on a per hour basis. That's what Prodoscore is actually measured. And I know anecdotally, a lot of people I talk to say, "yes, it is weird. I'm getting more done." And I think they're getting more done because we all know it takes 26 minutes to go back to doing what you were doing when you get interrupted. Well 10% of the workforce goes around interrupting people and they do it several times a day. That's a lot of interruption. That's a lot of 26 minutes to get back online, get back on track. So anyway, I just thought I'd share that with everybody. And you can quibble with the individual numbers, but I think directionally and magnitude was we're talking about the biggest injection of value into the economy.
Yes. In some interesting ways, cost savings on one side productivity and another with the profits driven productivity. But the biggest one you and I have seen in our lifetime and fast is already happening, that's what I want to emphasize. This is not a tomorrow only thing. And one more thing is interesting as people are saying, "yes, but..." Yes, we're stuck at home and it's terrible. Well, that's the COVID related disease management, a form a risk management. I guess I'll call it diseases not what's happening at that point. It's a risk. It's the management or mitigation of risk of disease. That's gone someday, we don't know when, but it's gone someday. When it's gone this commute economy, the lack of commuting and the work from home will still be around because the big companies have spoken and everybody has to compete with the big companies for talent and now talent can work from anywhere. And I'll make one final prediction.
There is a lot of concern about social and economic justice nowadays. There's been a lot of concern for quite a while about wage disparities. How much do people make doing different things in different places. The fact of the matter is it's got to be good for all of those issues with talent anywhere can work anywhere because that kind of liquidity simply makes more opportunity for people who are talented and hardworking and want to get the job done, whatever the job happens to be. They don't only have to be limited to the jobs that are right in their area. Now mind you, there has to be improvements in many places in terms of infrastructure, access to internet, so forth, but it's a lot easier to improve access to internet than pick families up and move them across the country to places that they're not familiar with, that maybe they won't feel very comfortable at.
Corey Frank (19:59):
That's great point. I'm sure we're going to hear over the coming months of who does this, we've had the man-cave people would put up man-cave, porn about the beautiful flat screen and the jerseys in the fridge. And imagine we're going to have the same type of thing with a the office cave, the ideal office scenario, social collaboration amongst what's the best chair and the best height and raised desk let alone productivity tools. Because yes, I can imagine especially those that are in deeply collaborative positions where they're on Zoom calls or conference calls much to the day where previously they had conference room sessions or whiteboard sessions. Those are the ones that are going to maybe struggle the most from a collaborative type of work environment. And it's going to be clear that there's going to have to be some new breakthroughs and some sharing of best practices when it comes to making those as comfortable and as creative as possible.
Chris Beall (20:55):
You know what's funny about work from home having done it for a long time is, I'm not a fan of regular meetings, right? Holding weekly meetings, they tend to proliferate. They tend to attract parasites. And so I don't think they're great. It's easy to get away or to dispose of some of those regular meetings when they don't have the ritual of the office around them. And to let people pull information when they need it. It's one of the principles that our company runs on us. If you need to know something and you don't have that information, you need to know it from somebody else in the company, they don't owe it to you, you owe it to yourself to go get it from them. And so there are short interactions that are easily scheduled when you send a request to somebody for something, and they're working from home and they're in say a Zoom meeting.
Well, they finish that meeting. They can take a minute or so and satisfy your request for information. And they may do that with the phone call. Don't underestimate the power of the human voice, not just with those invisible strangers, but with your invisible or visible, that's what we do with Zoom, friends. The people you work with, it's amazing how much information you can get to move around with voice. And if you don't pack the day with meetings, people have time to get some of those interactions to happen. Think of it as like the oil in an engine. A little bit of room around the meetings, lets this cooling and friction reducing oil in the form of conversations flow and people will figure out how to talk to each other. And you want to get de-siloed, I'll tell you when everybody is working remotely, the silos go away and people start talking to each other more which is a wonderful thing in a physical office, it's very hard to avoid physical sorrow.
Corey Frank (22:41):
Right, I love it. This is fantastic stuff Chris, even with these numbers am going to check myself on the number of zeros here, because this is massive. And even if I'm an average size $10 to $25 million company with 50 inside sales reps and 10 field reps selling B2B, this is a brand new way to think of an increase in my bottom line in my top line for doing something that most folks want to do naturally anyway, which is just being more productive. I think one of our first episodes, we talked about the need to have people feel like they're accomplishing more and to feel like they're really doing a good job and it's in its inherent. No biophysiology to feel that way. And in too often, I think a lot of the encumbrances that we've placed on the work from an office environment burdens us to feeling our best sometimes because of all the things that don't really matter, the political, the manifestations of org charts, and promotions and elbowing and all that other stuff. And this certainly just allows me to feel good about my productivity in a different way. Doesn't it?
Chris Beall (23:54):
It does. I mean, Deming said that we work for pride of workmanship and the ability to get more done. That's meaningful to us without interruption or unnecessary interruption, I think just helps our professional mental wellbeing and helps us personally. There's another thing too, which is just a lot of evidence that says, hey being outdoors, being in greenery, so to speak, I'm looking out here right now and all the trees that surround this place that I'm living now over that direction somewhere, there's a Rocky beach that I can walk down to, there's nothing to keep me from taking my phone, plugging in an air pod or two into my ears and having some meetings yesterday, I had two and a half hours of conversations with people while trotting around barefoot. And is that good for my mental and physical health? You bet I'm not exactly a young buck. I'm 65 and change years old. And for me to get a couple hours of exercise and while talking to people is a great thing. And that is very hard to do at the office.
Corey Frank (24:54):
We'll leave it there for this episode. This, this was a heady one lot of numbers, lot at stake, and certainly a lot to consider as we move forward with hopefully an end to COVID insight. Regrettably the cost has been extraordinarily high. What you're doing here, Chris, and certainly with what the ConnectAndSell team continues to do is have to look for that axle grease to at least help them make the best of a real tough situation for folks. So great stuff has always with that, that ends this week's episode of the Market Dominance Guys for Chris Beall. This is Corey Frank from UncommonPro wishing you a great and successful week.
(aka: The Problem Is Making Your Numbers)
Running your sales program with a conversation-first approach delivers needed information to you. Naturally, this is important to your sales department. After all, utilizing a conversation at the beginning of the sales process tells your sales team almost automatically if it’s worthwhile to have another conversation.
So, why should a CEO be selling when he has salespeople to do that job? Because there’s important information a savvy CEO can glean from having conversations with prospects. Information about how things are changing for prospective companies due to competition or demand for their products, about new leadership within their companies, and about the adjustments prospective buyers have had to make to meet the challenges of impactful events — like this pandemic. In these preliminary conversations, a CEO can truly keep his finger on the pulse of prospective buyers and detect how his own company’s product, service, or even sales message might need to be changed to better meet buyers’ needs.
In this podcast, Chris will also explain his take on a different result that has surfaced due to the pandemic. He begins with, “There’s a bad, bad disease in our economy, and it’s called commuting.” Listen while Chris expounds on his conclusion that the massive collapse of the commute economy is real — and that the effects of it have huge economic value.
----more----
Market Dominance Guys are brought to you by:
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The complete transcript of this episode is below: Chris Beall (00:35):
So you have this issue that has to be solved, but it's very rare that the company's issue of staying in business is actually tied tightly to individual rep's need to make the number. Where that came from was as a way of assessing performance within the territory that had been granted, is actually a way to buy the territory. That is, if I make my number this year or exceed my number, then I get the territory for next year and I get a bigger number. Why do I get a bigger number? It's assumed it's easier to grow a territory than it is to [crosstalk 00:01:09].
So it was actually a purchasing mechanism where this independent business person called the sales rep, purchases the territory in addition to enough compensation for their own business to stay alive, and they do it through "performance" by making the number. So there's an agreement that this territory is worth selling to you if you bring this much revenue.
Then maybe in clever schemes, some of it has to come from this product and some from this product, then you put all these cool features in the comp plan, so to speak, but none of those features actually have to do with solving real customer problems. The assumption is, the product solves the problem and caveat emptor, buyer beware. Buyer beware doesn't work very well in the B2B world where the buyer is increasingly less expert than the seller because products are increasingly complex and interdependent. So the buyer must truly be able to trust the seller. And when the seller corrupts out and says, "I'd rather make the number then tell the truth," problems happen. And they are problems, not for the seller, they're problems for the business, the buying business and the selling business. The seller might make out, the person might make out.
It's one of those things that as sales management and as business management, I think we should be acutely aware of. And it's one of the reasons, by the way, I think CEOs should sell. We could do a whole episode on that. Somebody once asked me, "Why do you sell so much? Why do you spend hours a day on the frontline selling? I assign myself a kind of a soft quota. It doesn't have anything to do with my compensation, probably does actually in some subtle way having to do with stock options and God knows what, but my quota is about $6 million a year last year. And this year it's maybe $7 million and change. I've got a lot of other things going on. Why do I do that? I mean, isn't it distracting me from the core of the business, which is ... I don't know what it is because I'm not that good of a CEO.
I guess sitting around and talking to people, I don't know, doing stuff like this.
Corey Frank (03:04):
Staring at spreadsheets. Yeah, exactly.
Chris Beall (03:05):
Staring at spreadsheets. Yeah. I'm pretty fast on spreadsheets. The reason I do is, a business fundamentally is a means of solving problems for others that are inconvenient or too expensive to solve for themselves. That's the purpose of the business. And unless you're hearing the problems with your own ears and it's coming into your own brain, very, very hard to integrate the information about your customers as it changes over time. And it changes over time even if nothing happens. It's obvious. Competitors show up, your customer's businesses change, innovations show up or substitutes are happening, there may be some other way of doing the job. Who knows what it is? You can have a pandemic show up. I know that sounds almost impossible, but what if the whole world kind of went home overnight? Well then what?
So how do you learn as a CEO unless you're out there selling? And the CEO has a real advantage as a seller. They can sell honestly. It's really easy to sell honestly as the CEO, because you're not tempted by the transaction. You're forced to take a holistic view. Unless the transaction is the one that's going to help you make payroll and you're on that edge. Then you got to be careful. These games are life or death games at that level, so it's a different kind of thing.
It's fascinating to me that when I sell something, people go, "Oh, you just sold that because you're the CEO." I don't know. I can't unbecome the CEO. I guess I could. I could quit and see whether they'd hire me back as a sales guy, but they probably wouldn't. They just go, "Well, you only sold $6 million last year, and you did that because you're the CEO, so we're not going to hire you." So I'd have to do something else. Go to work for you, maybe, or something like that. That'd be funny.
It speaks to this very basic question, which is if you're using trust to dominate markets, you actually have got to be honest. And if the transaction temptation is too much for you, you're going to get dominated by somebody who figures out how to be honest. It's a huge competitive differentiator, is being straight up with folks. Then that means you've got to target well. You've got to target well and you have to be very efficient. So your sampling techniques to find out if you're targeting's any good, I've got to run really, really fast.
This is actually the core of the Market Dominance Guy's thesis, is the reason you run conversation first is because it delivers information to you, and every conversation tells you almost automatically whether it's worthwhile having another conversation. So it's conversation first, not conversation lots, right? And a conversation as a sampling mechanism that allows you to reliably answer this question. Should we move forward or not in this relationship? That's the question on the table at all times.
So now the question is, how short a conversation can you have? How frequently can you have it, given that you cost money and your salespeople cost money in order to get that question reliably enough answered? Not perfectly answered, but sufficiently, reliably answered that you don't have a false negative problem that really hurts your business. That's why I always talk about the flow rate of conversations as being important within the math of sales. But it's also important for a completely different reason, which is, if you're not sampling the marketplace continuously, you are ignorant of change.
Say your message stops resonating. This happened to us. When the COVID thing hit, everybody went home. Our standard opener was still okay. It needed to be changed a little, but our value prop, what we call the 27 second part of the pitch, and this is just a cold call. Not that important, but pretty important. And it went from something that people could listen to, to something that people couldn't listen to. It went from, "Hi, I'm the guy tapping you on the shoulder at the gas station and saying, 'Here's the additive that will get you a 10 times better gas mileage,'" to saying, "Hi, I'm the guy with the additive that gives you 10 times better gas mileage," and saying it to somebody who's just been on a roll over accident in a 100 car pile up. It's the same message, just the context has changed. So we needed to change our message.
We changed it to talk about something that we do help with, we think, at least you could be curious about, which is the problem of managing a work from home sales team. Totally different. "Your car is upside down, but I think I have a couple of hooks here and a jack and I get your car back up on its wheels." Having done that your car is drivable again, you have the freeway to yourself. Would you like to be able to go faster? It's actually a very different thing, but you're not out there in the front lines as the leader and you're just staring at spreadsheets or numbers, you'll miss this stuff. And this is where the competition is.
Somebody once told me, a business fundamentally is a sword fight in the dark room. The only time you see anything is when there's a clash of steel and enough sparks to get some dim outlines. So you better be in the fight. You can't be outside just listening to it.
Corey Frank (08:00):
Well, speaking of taking advantage of opportunities, we have talked before we started recording here about this massive amount of capital that is seemingly invisible to the economists and the journalists and the politicians today that is pouring into the United States. I think now would be a good time to chat a little bit about that, Chris, because I think our listeners would certainly want to kind of see again that high mountain air, the second piece that has really kind of inspired you as of late to see the invisible, so to speak.
Chris Beall (08:34):
Yeah, let me share my screen here, because this is really kind of shocking, at least to me. So I got up a few weeks ago, I think it was three or four on a Saturday. And sometimes on Saturdays, I don't know what it is about Saturday morning, but I'll wake up sometimes and think, "There's something really bugging me." And I was listening to and watching all the doom and gloom going on out, and I thought, "I'm not seeing the world this way, but I don't have any numbers to back it up," so I thought I'd go get some numbers.
So the way I was seeing the world, and that I'm still seeing the world is that we had a bad, bad disease in our economy called commuting. And you would never have designed it [inaudible 00:09:11] ever. Nobody would ever say, "I've got a great idea. We have a lot of ways for people to interact with each other, with voice and with video and they're pretty much universal that can reach into almost every home. Gosh, we got all this, but I have an idea. I think, let's do this. Let's take 3000 pounds of steel and put some rubber tires on it and an engine in it and then take 30 minutes or there abouts each day and sit in that thing with some danger to ourselves and let's sit in that thing and let's all get together so that our three pound brain can be near some other three pound brains so that we can look at each other when we talk to each other, but we could even do that with video. So I guess maybe so we can smell each other or touch each other, because those are the two things that you can do for sure up close and personal. And we can sit in conference rooms together, except some of the people on the other end of the speaker phone will feel left out."
So you would never have designed it. So my question was, "Well, what if it went away? What if it's gone away?" And I know a lot of people are saying, "Well, this is COVID and it's temporary," and so forth. I became pretty convinced that the massive collapse of what I call the commute economy is real and it's done. And I looked at it from two perspectives.
So one is, what do CFOs really not like? By and large, they don't like leases for office space on the balance sheet. And if you've ever tried to get out from under a lease, when for whatever reason, your business, you had ... we did it back in 2014 when we left our San Mateo office and decided that having all those people together didn't make any sense. That was pretty painful. It's always painful to get out from under a lease. The liability is just not fun to have. And CFOs don't like it.
The other thing CFOs don't like is just waste, depending especially on head count. So I just went out and started researching this question, which was so ... are the really numbers that tell us that the commute economy had costs? And what about productivity? Are people more productive in the office? And I'd run into this, and not even a study. Just these guys at Prodoscore that I happen to know, P-R-O-D-O-S-C-O-R-E.
You should go check them out if you want to know whether people are being productive or not. They'd come in and tested us as a company. And by the way, they found out that John T McLaren, our Senior VP of Sales rep, he's also the President now that I think about it. Anyway, John T was the most productive person they'd ever seen, is what they said. I thought that was pretty interesting. They have automation that measures productivity, and whether it measures it absolutely or relatively, that is even if it's not an absolute number, it would be able to tell if productivity had changed up or down.
So they said that they had a 100 million data points that showed that there was productivity gain of 47% from people who had gone to work from home because of COVID. 47% productivity gain is insane. And there's no consultant on earth who wouldn't dominate the entire planet if they could offer a 47% productivity gain across any workforce, people seek 3%, right? 4% is a big number, but 47%? And this is measuring what people actually do. So, that was shocking.
But then I also thought, "Well, what about the cost of commuting? What if the knowledge workers just in the US didn't have to commute?" So I went out to the government sources and here and there, and I put together this spreadsheet that you're looking at. And it's out there on LinkedIn. You can find it. It's in a post that I did back then. And I'll probably repost it, maybe we'll repost it and make it easy to find, but pretty simple. It says there's 48 million knowledge workers, and they commute for 26 minutes on average each way, as we all know in bigger cities it's a lot more than that. So I just took it up to hours and said, "Okay, well, $50 an hour, times 48 million knowledge workers, times 199 hours. What is that? 9 billion labor hours and $478 billion of labor that's wasted commuting."
And that's kind of crazy, if you think about it, right? It's hard to find $478 billion. That's bigger than the bail out on the Great Recession of 2007, '08, '09, whenever that thing was. That bail out was $250 billion, $300 billion, depending on how you count it. Right? Then they have to drive all over the place. And I thought, "That's no big deal." And then I calculated it out, and it's like, hey, just at the standard 57.5 cents of mileage reimbursement, that's another $184 billion. And then I decided to just throw in something as an ancillary, kind of get a feel for it more than anything else, which is, so what percentage of those people have kids and those kids need some care when parents are commuting just when commuting. And the answer's probably yes, that's $33 billion.
So the direct costs are $695 billion, right? But the rest of the workforce also was delayed in commuting. So what if they were spending 25% too much time, actually 33% too much? What if they can save 25% of their commute time? Everybody who has to commute just by commuting on roads that aren't full of knowledge workers. And I think that's pretty realistic. We're all seeing it now. And the answer is, there's another $117 billion of savings. So the commute savings both directly from knowledge workers not commuting, no labor and mileage, then I threw a one childcare thing. I bet I could have much more if I felt like it. And then the impact on others from us knowledge workers clogging up the roads with our 3000 pounds of steel, and I'm not even by the way, getting into what comes out of those cars and all of that, just ignoring that.
Corey Frank (14:45):
So the rental costs for commercial real estate and all the office supplies, all those hard G&A that also contribute to this is incredible.
Chris Beall (15:55):
Yeah. And this number looked big to me. And then I went over to the productivity number and just looked at, well, how much revenue to companies make per employee? And for us knowledge workers, that's about $200,000. So the revenue potential from work from home is $14 trillion just improve productivity, $14 trillion. And I said, "Yeah, but the companies only get to keep the gross margin, gross profit." So gross margin average for US companies, 47%. So it's only $6 trillion, and we add that to our $813 billion of savings. And you get $7.445 trillion of free money for the economy.
Now I hear people already saying, and some people say, "Well, it doesn't get spread around." Of course, it doesn't get spread around immediately. It ends up, a lot of it in the hands of companies, and what do companies do with it? They tend to reinvest because they're ambitious, and they reinvest in things like hiring people and they go out and try to expand their market. Some of them might even choose to go dominate markets. You never know.
So the fact of the matter is, it's a lot of money. How much? Well, $7.5 trillion is just too much to think about. So 2008 stimulus, oh, I'm sorry. It was only $152 billion. So it's 46 times as much money as we spent to bail out the economy in 2008. It is a little bit less than the total debt, $9.5 trillion of all US companies. The one I really like is total 2019 government spending $4.4 trillion. So this is bigger than the US federal government, almost twice as big. And it comes into our economy, it's already happening as far as I can tell. No economist has weighed in on this. I'm not an economist. This could be completely wrong for some reason I don't understand, but I think we're seeing it already. And I think it's going to surprise us.
What is it going to produce for business? Well, the opportunities for dominance go way up. That's for sure. Because as the economy gets stimulated, I suppose is the right term, by the $7.5 trillion a year coming in, I should have broken it down by the minute. It's a fair amount of money per minute at that. I mean, here people are freaked out about $1.5 trillion of student college loan debt. So one year of these savings would pay that off six times. [crosstalk 00:18:16]
Corey Frank (18:16):
That's incredible. That's a hidden $7.5 ... you found it in the virtual couch cushions of America.
Chris Beall (18:24):
Yeah. The virtual couch cushions of America. I think one of the things that we don't understand about our economy is how it really works. So we measure it by GDP and all these old measures that kind of don't really capture it very well. But one thing we know that economists and economic models are built to not do is they're built to not recognize the impact of sudden change, because one thing that can't happen in economies, except from suddenly declared war and it has to be big and fast, is sudden change. So the economic models make a lot of assumptions, that nothing has changed, but what if something changed that's really positive and made a big difference, like suddenly people like me can live in port towns in Washington because my fiance doesn't have to commute to Bellevue.
Think about the economic impact on port towns, and I have a couple of people who, we do well in life and we'll spend a lot more money here. What does that mean to the local economy? Well, I guarantee you one thing, it wouldn't have happened without the collapse of the commute economy.
Corey Frank (19:32):
We started this conversation, and this is where we'll probably end it today is with the Milk-Bone and the dog at a gate, and you've come full circle here in that for a company who is struggling thinking about, perseverating about moving their team to a work from home model, oftentimes the gate is open. The spreadsheet I think that you walked is through here, is just walk around the gate, come on in, the water's fine.
The downside that a lot of the hesitancy that a lot of companies would push back on, Chris, is the culture and the continuity and the three pound brain, there is some benefit from being next to another three pound brain. And that's my feeling of involvement, my feeling of social status and things of that nature. And I think we had ... a lot of those could probably addressed if they listened to last week's episode with [inaudible 00:20:29], and the wonderful culture that he's building with his organizations. But, what do you say to that just briefly when, okay, I can go around the gate. I see the hard costs. It makes sense from a P&L, from an EBITDA perspective, but man, there is real atomic weight from that three pound brain being next to three pound brain.
Chris Beall (20:48):
Well, we're going to have to try it for a while, because going back to the office is expensive and dangerous. Dangerous in a funny way. And the plaintiff's bar is itching to go after an employer who forces people to come to the office and one of them happens to get sick. I mean, they are armed and ready to go. Anybody who's familiar with how the plaintiff's bar works and how class action works knows what is about to happen.
So folks voluntarily coming back in, still there's some legal risks, just is because who knows what assurances you may have inadvertently provided, what warning labels you might've had to have, what mitigations you could have done that you failed to do and not knowing about them, by the way, might not be a defense, right? So you're about to learn something auto manufacturers have known for a long time, which is that you're responsible for safety if you offer something where there are safety issues that are different from what was expected. And since no one knows what to expect, this could be problematic for anybody who's bringing folks back.
Secondly, every mitigation is untested. There are no tested mitigations. I saw a beautiful article in the Puget Sound Business Journal that showed a picture, an infographic, and it showed the 11 mitigations that you should consider before you bring people back to the office. And they were things like coming in with a new HVAC system that had different kinds of filtering in it and circulated air differently. Really? For a year and a half or two years of benefit? I mean, if you're going to bring them back, okay, but really? New HVACs so the three pound brains can sit next to each other, but not infect each other? Think anybody's ever tested that? I don't think anybody's ever tested that, right? [crosstalk 00:22:35] Not one of these mitigations has been tested. Coffee machines that you operate with your smartphone. I don't think anybody's ever done laboratory testing or in real life testing of the impact of that on respiratory virus transmission.
So this is just stuff people are going, they're kind of waving their hands and saying, "But, but, but, but, but." Now, remember there's a finger on the scale, which is the other side of those big leases. So you should expect to see a lot of stories about how essential it is and possible it is to bring people back into the office. But I tell you from a scientific perspective, again, all 11 of those mitigations have got to be done and all 11 have got to work, and then you have to not get a little bad luck, like, well, it turns out they stood next to somebody in the Starbucks downstairs. It's unlikely. You're going to have to learn to live with it anyway.
Culturally, what do you do? I know in sales what you do. It's simple. I'll show you. I'll show you. Let me go show you, because I have it right up here on my screen right now. So here is an answer, and I admit this is a commercial. I apologize for it. But it's an answer. For your sales team, nothing is more energizing than talking to people.
Corey Frank (23:50):
That's correct.
Chris Beall (23:51):
This is our team today, and here's an SDR's talked to 25 decision makers. Set one meeting, so they had a moment of excitement. It's had 14 followups. It's Friday, people tend to be a little busy on Friday. I got two referrals, and had 5 minutes from 24 seconds after pushing the button on average before he talked to somebody, Josh Lyman did. And I'm sure during that time he was doing something else that's useful.
It's kind of funny. We talk about culture. Like culture is about ping pong tables or it's about drinking beer in the conference room or whatever it happens to be, which I think people gave up a while ago to for safety reasons. Fact of the matter is, people, as Deming told us, they worked for pride of workmanship, and if they have good work to do, and they're having fun doing it, and they're being managed in a way that's fair and reasonable and encouraging, then the core of culture is there. And that's the number one thing is work culture actually can be about work, and it can be about what somebody loves to do.
If you're in sales, you hopefully love to talk with people. And so here, my team today, they've talked to 168 people as we see down here. That's a lot of conversations, right? Here's what also is culturally kind of good about this. They didn't have to make those 5,655 frustrating dials and navigate those fun systems. That was done for them. So that's kind of pleasant.
And then another thing is, people like to be able to help and they like to be helped. If you need help, you're stuck. You need to learn. If somebody notices you need help, and there's a lot of ways to do that. So say your boss or your coach could come in and say, "You know what? This guy, Sean McLaren, he's our chairman. Man. He's kind of a lot of busy callbacks today." By the way, Sean McLaren really is our executive chairman who really does talk to people. So today he had six conversations and set one meeting. That's pretty good, but he's having a hard time keeping people on the phone. I wonder if Sean's got issues today? Is it a little slow? Is his voice bad? Well, this one can't be correct. That's a minute long conversation. So maybe he just coded it wrong.
These are short. I have a feeling if I listened to one, and we're not going to do that right now out of respect for Sean's awesomeness, but hey, if Sean needed a little help, just thinking about his state of mind today, his mood or whatever, then we can help him. Right? Then here's another thing is, it's fun to do work that counts. It's not much fun to do work that doesn't count. So today this team, it's 5,655, and now it's gone up by a couple. It's only three in the afternoon after all. Would that have been culturally marvelous for them to just gone to voicemail 1,825 times today or navigated to voicemail 1,567 times, or been told by a gatekeeper, "I'm sorry. Corey is not in today. I'm not available." None of that looks like fun, right? So culturally that's part of it.
Now the rest of it is this, human beings actually don't have a sense of smell like the other animals, the other mammals. So your dog can smell you across town. And I'm speaking literally here. I had a dog once that freaked out, ran off in a thunderstorm and she went all the way back up to our mountain home, which was 17 miles away of complex navigation involving roads and trails and God knows what. And she went to every neighbor's house and sort of knocked on the door to check to see if we were there, because we were out of town. Imagine that, right?
Corey Frank (27:29):
Yeah. Well, she knows that there's a bunch of Milk-Bones on the other side of the fence. That's probably [inaudible 00:27:33] that she couldn't get to. Yeah.
Chris Beall (27:34):
Exactly. Well, what was she really doing? She was following a scent trail. She had mapped a scent map, not a trail. She had mapped the scent. She had only been up and down that road one time in her life, one time up, one time down. That was it. This is a dog who had never been to town before, before we moved to town. So she remembered how to get back to that complex mountain home by knowing the smell of everything along the way. So dogs are really, really good at this.
You go to the airport, they don't have a trained human who's going up and down in the security line, sniffing everybody. They have a dog, right? Humans are not the most brilliant in the world at smelling each other and figuring out if they're sincere to be trusted. But we are geniuses, like dogs will never be, at hearing each other's voices and seeing each other's faces, and the voice and the face are the two ways that we express ourselves in terms of what really counts, which is, do I care about you? And if you want to have a great culture, let your people know you care about them and let them tell you they care about you and about the mission. And you just do it in natural ways, in the normal course of business, like getting on these zooms by just talking on the phone.
Everybody in your company who is physically capable of hearing and seeing, and that's not everybody, I get it that that's really tough for folks who have vision problems and hearing problems, but of the rest of, of the mass of folks at your company who don't, they're so good at interpreting sincerity and good intentions and meaningful direction from tone of voice, for the same reasons cold calling works, it's possible and easy to project fantastic culture to a remote workforce.
And in fact, you have more time to do it during the two hours you would've been commuting, let's break it down. I have a team in North America, personally of 28 people. So in two hours, how many five minute conversations are there? There's 24. That's pretty cool. Think about that. That's 24 times I can spend having five conversations. And in those five minutes, each one of those minutes pays seconds carrying 20,000 bits of emotional information, terabits of emotionally important information can be transmitted.
Having meetings where everybody gets to participate, this is one of the beauties of zoom, in a standard conference call, the standard conference room, participation is dominated by the physically most dominant person. They stand, they take over the room, they interrupt, they talk, they go to the whiteboard, they dominate. In a hybrid where there's a speaker phone in the desk or the table in the conference room, you get a two tier economy, two tier culture. People in the room, and the people in the mushroom, people in the mushroom don't have a shot. They don't exist. They will never have the floor in any significant way.
On a regular conference call, just voice only, it's tricky. You need a good moderator, but in a zoom call, it's so natural. Everybody sees each other's face. And normally the contribution level per person goes way up and people feel more included. So I think making an inclusive culture is actually easier, and some of the biases that we have about people are a little, shall we say muted in this environment and biases are not the greatest thing in the world. So I actually [crosstalk 00:30:58]-
Corey Frank (30:58):
Happened 10 years ago, then you could argue that the urgency to go back to the commuter economy would have been so much more urgent, but because the tech stack is so much more in place and plumbed and accepted that there really isn't many excuses to go back to the way we were.
Chris Beall (31:17):
When you work the numbers, it says don't do it. When you work to culture, it says don't do it. If your work productivity, it says don't do it. We solved this problem a long time ago. We would never have designed it like we had it. Clogged cities with roads you can't get through on, people frustrated, not seeing their children, not getting enough exercise, not eating well, stopping at the bar on the way home, sucking down the lattes because they're bored. Let's face it, that was not healthy. It wasn't economically healthy and it wasn't otherwise healthy.
Corey Frank (31:48):
Well, if that's the case, then I tell you what, since we're up against the clock here, Chris, by the next time we do this, then your background needs to be changed to the new virtual commuter economy. And I expect, I think all of our listeners expect a view of Discovery Bay for port towns, as opposed to the crowded streets there that we see behind you now.
Chris Beall (32:11):
Exactly, you're going to be looking out towards a Protection Island, and I think we got a lot of protection that's actually built in. It's tragic what's going on with all the cases of people getting sick, people dying, but I do believe that this bunch of people worked hard to create a situation where we can work from anywhere and we can contribute to society no matter who we are. I believe there'll be a next wave that we haven't even touched yet, which is inclusiveness across society. There are so many smart people who don't contribute, don't get to contribute because they don't live where the rich businesses are. And I've done some experiments around that about, oh, back in 1991 and '92 that proved to me for sure that there is no difference in talent among all of our different communities that we have in this country or anywhere in the world.
And I think one of the side effects of work from home and work from anywhere is going to be that more people are going to find great careers as knowledge workers who are currently being left out. And I think that's another wave that's coming, and nobody's seeing it coming.
Corey Frank (33:23):
That's great. Okay. Well, we have a topic to discuss for next time. In the meantime, I'm going to go search for my share of the $7.5 trillion that you say is buried somewhere in the aether, in the virtual couch cushions of America. So until next time.
Chris Beall (33:40):
I'm going to go load up with the [inaudible 00:33:42]. Talk to you later.
Corey Frank (33:40):
Beautiful.
Chris Beall (33:40):
Thanks, partner.
Corey Frank (33:44):
Thanks, Chris.
The problem in sales is that the desire for the transaction puts most salespeople already behind the eightball. When he was growing up, Chris' family put up a chain-link fence originally for the goats, but a few years later it helped with the dogs and inspired an experiment.
Chris opened the gate 30-40 feet away from where he put a dog bone over the fence. His dog tried to go over, under, and through the fence, but couldn't get to the bone. But it also didn't back up enough to see the open gate. This is what most salespeople do.
----more----
Use your expertise to back up and explore rather than trying to drive their nose through the fence to the juicy steak, the commission on the other side which is counter to the role you want to be in. Most salespeople are screwed up, and most sales compensation programs are screwed up. They encourage people to go through the fence rather than looking for the gate.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below: Corey Frank (00:34):
Welcome to the episode of the Market Dominance Guys, where the best in sales today comes together. We have Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell. So Chris, first of all, good afternoon, got a lot going on in your life, which we may get to in this episode. But before we click the record button, we're talking about sales. And the problem in sales today is the nature of sales in and of itself, is the fact that the desire for the transaction, which most salespeople are already behind the eight ball. So why don't you set that up a little bit better, just so I understand what that high mountain air has given you from the latest riff.
Chris Beall (01:18):
Actually, no high mountain air here. We're moving from Seattle. We're moving to Port Townsend because we can. And part of that is, I'll call it, the great work from home migration, where folks are able to live wherever they want now, if they're knowledge workers. Employers have lost the moral authority to tell people to come in and risk their lives in order to get their three pounds of brain physically closer to another bunch of three pounds of brain by moving 3000 pounds of steel for 26 minutes each way.
Corey Frank (01:44):
That's correct.
Chris Beall (01:45):
That was a strange idea to start with. You never would have designed it that way. If you'd thought about it for a minute, you'd never have said, "I got a great idea." People could talk remotely to each other and do all sorts of things, collaborate and do stuff. But, I got a better idea. Let's move 3000 pounds of steel for 30 minutes, in order to get those brains close enough, that the way they talk to each other's right through the air, rather than through the telephone, it's finally been shown by necessity to be bankrupt, and we're never going back.
But the problem with sales, remember one of my reps once asked me in Denver when I'd come back from flying across country. Remember when we used to do that?
Corey Frank (02:27):
I vaguely recall. Yes, absolutely.
Chris Beall (02:28):
Yeah. We were all sitting together and talking about how to get better. And he said, "What's the one thing you would change about us, to make us like you, as effectively as you do?" And I said, "Oh, it's simple. I would have you believe in the value of what we do, or the potential value of what we could provide, for the person that we're talking with as much as I do." So I get it. And then they buy more. So no, it's the purpose of you believing that is for them to buy more. It won't work unless you're a psychopath, it doesn't work.
Corey Frank (02:59):
So it's not just product knowledge.
Chris Beall (03:01):
No, it's the opposite. And product knowledge is, actually, you need to have confidence that the product that you represent has an above average chance of being part of a potential solution. And that you might explore it, you might find part of within the next conversation. And the next conversation could tell you enough, to tell you to move forward or not move forward. That's all you could do. And I call it the dog, the fence, and the phone problem. So when I was a kid, I grew up out in the desert, North of Scottsdale, what is now Scottsdale. But back then it was way out there. And we finally put up a chain-link fence, cause our goats were a problem. And they were a problem, like they'd climbed up on this realtors convertible T-Bird. They have sharp hooves and it's not so great when they're dancing around them on the convertible roof.
And that costs my parents a little money. Then they went next door. We had one neighbor, it's kind of funny, within a mile and one neighbor and they were next door and went into their garage and sort of started up fire. And this guy's ham radio set, it wasn't that great, right? So we put up a chain-link fence, and that meant our dogs were inside the fence. And one time I did an experiment, it was a very cruel experiment, but I was kind of an experimental kind of kid. I think I got it from my mom, the woman who used to say, "Chris has a lot of room out in the desert to bury a child." I thought, "I'm going to open the gate over here. And then I'm going to come down about 30, 40 feet away and put a dog bone, one of those milk bones, on the other side of the fence and see what my dog does."
And the dog tried to go through the fence, tried to go over the fence, tried to go under the fence, but never got the idea that it should back up and look around and see the open gate and go through the open gate. I think that this is how, sadly, most salespeople behave. Rather than trying to find the opening that may not be there, and if it's not there, use your precious time to go find another fence. The opening that might lead to a place from which a mutual solution can be understood.
You're taking the role of the expert. You're the specialist, but not using that role in a corrupt way to, to try to manipulate or force somebody into a transaction. Just using that expertise in order to explore; that means backing up as often as going forward and not just trying to drive your nose through the fence, cause there's a transaction on the other side. That juicy steak on the other side, that transaction that commission, often make salespeople behave in a way that is directly counter to the role that they might claim that they're staking out as a consultative salesperson.
If you're being consultative, the first thing you have to admit is that there's a reasonable shot that you can't help. Qualification is really answering the question. Does it make enough sense right now, from what I understand, to answer the question maybe in a positive way, maybe yes. That's worth going forward with the next conversation. If not, they're disqualified. So all the normal qualification dance, and all that, is just garbage, it makes no sense whatsoever. If you sell anything interesting, then I don't have a budget for it. I mean, that's just ridiculous. The idea that somebody has a budget for something that actually takes a salesperson to sell, you have to have a budget for it. They can go click on it and some online, whatever, and buy it that way. And even then if they know everything about what you're selling, you definitely can't be the expert.
You can't be providing the value of knowledge, and then the value of a willingness to explore. So I think most salespeople are screwed up, but most sales compensation programs are screwed up this one way. They encourage the dog to go through the fence instead of to look for the gate.
Corey Frank (06:52):
And then, so that desire for the transaction generates maybe alternative behaviors that are not conducive to establishing trust. Let alone curiosity.
Chris Beall (07:04):
Yeah. I mean, they're fundamentally dishonest, right? If I tell you something for the purpose of getting you to do something, instead of for the mutual purpose of us understanding something, getting it on the table and being able to talk about it, how is that different from me physically grabbing you and forcing you to go through a door I want you to go through or... [inaudible 00:07:24]
Chris Beall (08:23):
There's really no difference. I'm saying, I'm in a position of superior power and that I know more than you do, and I'm going to use that power to cause you to do what I want. Now I could say sincerely, what I want is always good for you, but that's unlikely to be the case. Honestly, it's unlikely to be the case and, discovery, I think is a funny term. In discovery, we tend to think, what are we discovering? Let's discover the stuff about this person that helps us sell to them. Let's discover their pain. Maybe their pain isn't what's relevant to them right now. Maybe there's some surrounds some context, some way of understanding the situation that will lead to a realization: "Hey, there's something much bigger that we could be doing now." So I think the false negative problem is the one that dominates sales, not the false positive problem. False positives waste your time, false negatives waste the marketplace.
There's a big difference between the two, a false negative means I left the best deal, potentially, to my competitor. It's a negative to me, because I didn't ever engage in a way that gave it a shot. It's a positive to my competitor cause it's so good, and now I've walked away. And yet we do nothing in sales about the false-negative problem. And that goes all the way back to something we've talked about before; the original purpose of sales was not to dominate markets, and to shape the valuation of companies. The original purpose of sales was to dispose of inventory in generating flow of gross profits. And when those two come in collision with each other, the old one tends to win because it's tied to the compensation plan and the belief systems of salespeople. So every sales book you pick up , by and large, will tell you to do something, to manipulate somebody in order to get them to transact with you. And don't worry. It's okay.
Corey Frank (10:14):
So, but that's pretty widespread. I mean, that's what we train newer sales reps to do in order to be successful, especially in a commoditized environment. If I'm selling whatever the commodity of the day is, let's just go back 15 years ago, long-distance services or transport services or a Microsoft service provider, for instance. I can get the various types of services from many different types of providers. And so why does it engender that type of inauthenticity in order to sell? Is it because of the pressure of how do I differentiate?
Chris Beall (10:53):
I think so. The fundamental failure of not being differentiated or not knowing your differentiation, I actually have never seen a real commodity. I don't know what they are. My example is always my breakthrough script for coffee beans. If I'm the coffee bean guy, and I'm delivering the coffee beans it's probably something like this. I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the fundamental risk that your most loyal customer is going to walk away disappointed because you didn't have their favorite grind. Does that sound undifferentiated? Of course not.
Corey Frank (11:29):
No, not at all.
Chris Beall (11:30):
It makes you think that, maybe, there's something different. Not about the beans, although you do get the idea that I will have a selection that makes sure that your customer's favorite grind is either in there right now or will be discovered. It does give you the idea that my deliveries will be accurate and on time, because otherwise you might be out of that particular kind of bean.
Corey Frank (11:52):
So in other words, Chris, if I hear you correctly, whether you're in a commodity or not, is less relevant to the fact that how you communicate the messaging around an economic, a strategic or an emotional message, that really is where the differentiator happens. So even if you do find yourself in a commoditized situation, your superior messaging work should be able to pull you out of it. To communicate to the prospect where I don't necessarily have to be inauthentic.
Chris Beall (12:25):
I don't need to be inauthentic in any way. I'm trying to sell one product, which is the meeting. And the reason is the psychological difference between me, coming at the prospect, talking to the prospect, and then coming with me on a journey of exploration is radically different. It's possible for somebody to comfortably confess in a conversation that they voluntarily come to. And it is a matter of confession. Even when we talk about folks' pain, they don't wear their pain on their sleeve. They really don't. In fact, in business, your pain is a secret, because it's a weakness and folks in business don't advertise the weaknesses. So you must be trusted before somebody is going to tell you their weakness in business. You could use it against them. You could go out and tell the world, that Corey's coffee shop is located on a corner that doesn't get any traffic, and the Starbucks across the street is killing him.
Right? Don't go to Corey's. If you confess those things to me, I could be the enemy. I could take that information and do something bad with it. So if I'm coming to your coffee shop, Corey's Clever Coffee, and I don't have an open mind about your business and you don't have a willingness to trust me to tell me what is true in your business. Maybe what's true in your business is this: "Chris I'm really frustrated. And over there at Starbucks, they got the big line going out the door. I have confidence that when you come into my coffee shop, not only get better coffee, but it's quieter. A lot of people are annoyed by the music over there, and by all the people going in and out. There's better places to sit, I got more comfortable chairs and they're set up in a way that promotes conversations."
"And I don't throw you out in 30 minutes if you've been hanging out too long. And, by the way, my WiFi is really fast. It bothers me, that folks aren't coming in here." Now, that's an interesting conversation. You're confessing a bunch of weaknesses about your coffee shop. And if I'm the really smart coffee guy, I say, "So is there ever a problem? You're trying to run this really quiet shop. Those espresso grinders are really loud and I've heard some people complain about that is the other shops. Is that something that, given that you're trying to have a quieter environment, that is a problem for you, or have you handled that?" "Oh, let me think about that," says Corey. Well, it turns out that I know somebody who has an ultra-quiet grinder and it works really well with all the beans that we sell.
In fact, we roast them a little bit extra and they grind a little bit quieter. Now that's a coffee person listening to this, I'm just making this stuff up. I don't know anything about grinding coffee. I do know about sitting in coffee shops, I'm wishing it was quiet. That's just me. My point is, where do you get to the point, Corey, where you're willing to confess that weakness or those problems to me somewhere inside that discovery conversation with that exploratory conversation? And if I'm bucking for a transaction, why would you do that? If you think my purpose is to get you to buy something, why would you confess to me? And if you don't confess to me, how do we have any problems to work on?
Corey Frank (15:44):
If I sold you, Chris, are you an easy sell? Do you see yourself as an easy sell? Do you see yourself as pretty uncomplicated emotional mechanism to get to that trust? Or are you a natural, typical left brain, maybe cynical, and I want to buy and I want to be sold? How do I sell to Chris Beall? And for those who are listening, this is probably something you should take notes because this guy is the CEO of a very large company with an unlimited budget. Let's get everybody the keys to the kingdom. So how do I sell Chris?
Chris Beall (16:20):
Well, first of all, you do have to approach me as something that makes me think just a little bit. I have to be intrigued. I have to be curious. Secondly, you've got to do it in a way that is open about what it is that you're doing. I really object to somebody who's asking me the five tricky questions that box me into agreeing with them. Well, wouldn't you agree, Chris, that it's superior to have your children left with some money after you die, then being destitute and on the street? I've actually experienced that recently, and I'm not an easy sell once you do that. Once I decide you're trying to manipulate me, I'm really, really difficult. But, if you want to talk about business and the challenges that we might be having, I'm easy. Now, I'm not easy to come up with a big first transaction.
I tend to want to try the relationship out. Because a lot of stuff that sounds great, turns out to be harder than you think. I don't often think people are deceiving me. I just think things tend to be hard. That is, solved problems are less hard than unsolved problems. So by its very nature, the problems that I have that are currently unsolved are the hard ones. And therefore, they probably don't avail themselves to easy solutions. So when somebody offers me an easy solution, I think that, "Could be so, but this problem could be a hard problem for some other reason." I'll flip it around. So, when we sell ConnectAndSell, we sell an easy solution to having lots more conversations, but that's not the problem. That's not a problem we're solving in and of itself. It is an advantage to have a lot more conversations, no doubt about it, but it gets us into the world of sales. And selling and dominating markets is not an easy problem.
If it was, we wouldn't have this podcast, right? If, that were a trivial problem, "Oh, I think I'll just dominate this market." Oh sure. Choose a market of one. You've got a pretty good shot. Once you get to two people, it starts to get a little diverse. At 10, this starts to get pretty hard, right? So it's a fundamentally hard problem. I have a belief, all fundamentally hard problems have fundamentally hard math at their core. They either have some chain that everything in the chain has got to work. And so the probability of the whole thing working is the multiplicative outcome of taking all those probabilities in the chain and multiplying them together. So if I have a six-step chain, and then it's a 50% chance that any given step will fail, the odds of success are very, very small. Here's my chance of succeeding:
one over two times, one over two times, one over two times, one over two times, one over two times one over two. What is that? Well, that's one over 64, right? So one out of 64 times I'll get all the way through that chain of events with only six events in it and a 50-50 shot at each one working. but it's only one out of 64 times, the whole thing works. And I just have to think about the world that way. I think people in business should think about the world more in terms of probability or bets and not the single debt, but looking at value chains and asking about dependencies. If this has to happen in order for this to happen. If I must get Corey to come to a meeting, and then if I must get him from that meeting to accept a test drive.
And if he must actually show up for the test drive with his people, which he has to provide us with the data. And if he can get his legal team to actually sign the test, drive DocuSign. And on and on and on. I go down there and I say, "Well, what is dependent on what?" And there's a problem that people have. This is one of the other problems of business: salespeople want to just go one step to the transaction, but analytical types want to see how many steps they can put in a process because it shows they're really thorough.
Corey Frank (20:32):
Sure. Oh yeah.
Chris Beall (20:33):
And if you put enough steps in a process, one thing that's guaranteed; process will never be executed successfully in a finite amount of time.
Corey Frank (20:42):
You got your too many variables into the system and it's going to be challenging. Certainly right. VCs are notorious for that or private equity. Hey, fetch me another rock. Hey, if you give me the cohort of this year, and this year's worth of revenues, then bring it back. And meanwhile, they're going to use that as the cramdown, as we've talked about in the previous episode. So I think that's a good springboard into the math of sales then. As we've always talked about, as you've always taught me here in these 40 odd episodes, right? Is that the limited variables in a system, I can predict if I put my major constraint or my main constraint in the business is trust-based conversations at scale. And so if I add that to the top of the funnel, it's logical that every other piece of the funnel, the math should restrict down to whatever the output is.
And if I don't know or care about any of those variables in the system, then I'm going to be pretty much relegated to just sell more. Just whatever my marketing team is able to throw from an AdWords perspective. And, for this journey to be authentic, is only as strong as the weakest link. If my math isn't right, if my focus on the math isn't right, then maybe that's why sometimes I'm a little bit more inauthentic on my sales calls. Because I'm going to try to fix or try to artificially create some ratios in my calm, dial the conversation, conversation to page pitch, to meeting, et cetera. That really isn't naturally there. It's not naturally water-falling down. But, if I can be a little bit more manipulative, maybe I can help with some of these other ratios.
Chris Beall (22:28):
Exactly. I mean, that's such a perfect description. It is exactly analogous to the machine and the machine shop. Or are they in the factory that's supposed to take the blank and it's supposed to turn it into a tube, or whatever. I remember being in shop, a few years ago, that did that. And the blank was a titanium blank, and the tube was the barrel of the world's lightest sniper rifle. So it's less boring than [inaudible 00:22:54]. A sniper rifle you can hold at arms length on one hand, and balance on your thumb. That was a remarkable product. But, somewhere in there, this titanium blank comes in and it's got to be grilled in a very precise way to turn it into a tube. So, say instead of accepting what the machine does, the operator decides, "I'm not getting the yield I'm supposed to get. Out of every 100 of these that come in, 97 are supposed to go out as tubes that are good enough to be a barrel. But I'm only getting 92.
So what I'm going to do is, I'm going to take the ones aside that didn't turn outright. And I'm going to take them over here, and I'm going to work from by hand. That's what I'm going to do. Why? Because, I want to make my number. I want to make my number." Well, do you really want to be the person who buys that sniper rifle that happened not to be making a standard process, but was rejiggered along the way by somebody who's trying to make his number?
And that's how we make bad business in business. We force deals all the time, in order to make the number. Sometimes it's done through discounting. Sometimes it's done through overpromising. Sometimes it's done through downright lying. There's a reason that salespeople have a reputation, by and large, in the large, as not being truth-tellers. Because the focus on making the number provides a lot of temptation to not run the system, not run the process, and to instead rejigger the output and maybe fake it. Say, "Well actually, what I'm going to do is I'm going to change the testing, so that now this appears to be within tolerances.
Instead of being out, it's going to be in. And I'm going to ship them downstream." And, this is a problem that plagued manufacturing for years. And it's the problem that, I think, has actually finally been solved in manufacturing. I'm sure there's backsliding all over the place. But in manufacturing, where I used to live, you didn't mess around with the running process by intervening. And you went back and said, "Okay, what is it? What's the root cause?" This is like, this is what the Toyota production system taught everybody. And it's even used in hospitals now, and all sorts of places you wouldn't expect . They say, "Hey, let's report to the truth. Let's not report to a desired number. Let's report the truth." But sales is this last bastion where, since trust is such a big deal, and since the number is held out as the result, what's the number, right?
What gets sacrificed? Well, we sacrifice trust in order to make the number. And we do it by producing false deals. We take good customers and turn them into bad customers. And, by doing the wrong deal, we do this. Everybody does this, by the way, because everybody has constraints on the business. One of the constraints is, you have to make enough money on the business. And, if you fail to do that, it doesn't matter how good you would have been. All prizefighters that are knocked out in the first round are equally good in the second round. That doesn't matter how good they would have been. They're all terrible. They win the same number of championship belts, zero.
Corey Frank (26:07):
Yeah. Zero, right.
Chris Beall (26:09):
So, you have this issue that has to be solved, but it's very rare that the company's issue of staying in business is actually tied tightly to individual reps needing to make the number.
Where that came from, was as a way of assessing performance within the territory that had been granted. There's actually a way to buy the territory. That is, if I make my number this year or exceed my number, then I get the territory for next year and I get a bigger number. Why do I get a bigger number? It's assumed it's easier to grow a territory than it is to grow investors.
So it was actually a purchasing mechanism, where this independent business person called the sales rep, purchases the territory in addition to enough compensation for their own business to stay alive. And they do it through "performance" by making the number. So there's an agreement that this territory is worth selling to you, if you bring this much revenue. And then, maybe, having clever schemes, some of it has to come from this product, and some from this product. And you put all these cool features in the comp plan, so to speak. But none of those features actually have to do with solving world customer problems. The assumption is: the product solves the problem and caveat emptor; buyer beware. Buyer beware doesn't work very well in the be-to-be world, where the buyer is increasingly less expert than the seller, because products are increasingly complex and interdependent. So the buyer must truly be able to trust the seller. And when the seller corrupts out and says, "I'd rather make the number, then tell the truth," problems happen. And they are problems, not for the seller, but problems for the business, the buying business and the selling business.
In this episode, Corey and Chris continue their conversation with a high Beta Market Dominance Practitioner MaxSold CEO, Sushee Perumal. aka "the skinny kid from India," MaxSold CEO, Sushee Perumal starting with why he felt he could successfully start an airline and his escape route when that failed. We open with Chris tying together his tapping of the bells analogy and plunging into Sushee's story which ultimately leads to MaxSold's growing success through a path of science, rather than simply tossing out millions of marketing dollars hoping it will work.
Chris reminds us, and Sushee agreed strongly that sometimes we have to wait before we can celebrate a win, funding, goals achieved.
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Some of the questions Corey and Chris ask Sushee include:
What do you do to regain laser focus on business?
What does the end in mind look like?
How do you get unstuck with your team? Sushee answered, "That's the hardest thing. The psychology of moving the people to the other side, how do we as a unit make the decision? It's not a force of will. Have we considered all the pros and cons of the lists? How can we articulate all the things that go into trying to make that decision? One big voice can overpower to convince people their way is the right way, but you still need to consider and hear from everyone to get their input. What are the unknown unknowns?"
Market Dominance Guys are Sponsored by:
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Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Corey and Chris continued their conversation with a high beta market dominance practitioner also known as the skinny kid from India, MaxSold CEO, Sushee Perumal, starting with why he felt he could successfully start an airline, and his escape route when that failed. We opened with Chris tying together, his tapping to the bells analogy and plunging into Sushee's story, which ultimately leads to MaxSold's growing success through a path of science, rather than simply tossing out millions of marketing dollars hoping it will work.
Chris Beall (01:04):
Discover is whether you should continue to engage because the only currency we run out of all the time is time. And we get reminded of that all the time when something happens that reminds us, all we have is time, right? We've all had events like that in our lives. And so I just think it's fascinating that we often think it's about money, it's about data, it's about analysis, but when you come right down to it, it's usually about being humble, believing in what you offer as potential, that you are an expert at something, you have some value, and then having conversations to find out where the fit is. I call it tapping the bells. I think that we've said this before, but I'll say it again, if somebody presented you with the problem, I have a thousand bells, but only 10 of them are bells. 990 of them just look like bells.
And we're going to put a bell up in the bell tower and it's going to have to ring once an hour on the first hour, twice on the second hour, and by the time we get up to noon, it's got to ring 12 times, and if it's made of clay, it's going to fall apart. Your job Sushee, without being able to do anything other than interact with the bells, is to figure out which ones are made of brass and which ones are made of clay. All you can do is tap the bells, right? That's the conversation. All you can do is have the conversation and see if it resonates. If it resonates, then it's worth moving forward and finding out if you like the other features for the thing. And I think you've just been exceptional at doing that through your career.
Did you do that in the airline business? It seems to me, if you would ask five people for advice about starting an airline, six of them would have told you not to do it.
Sushee Perumal (02:41):
Absolutely. And I think that's the skill, as you said before, I tried to gather as much data as possible, and then decide if I'm going to do it anyway. Same thing with the airline, I was talked out of it by practically every single person I talked to about. And I said, you know what? I have all this data and all this information, so what's the worst that can happen, right? So I did exactly the same thing this, as I did with that, which is maximizing the opportunity while minimizing the risk. The escape route is this, so the worst that can happen is I need to wind things down and I've learned a few things.
Similarly, with the use of the proceeds, we are trying to minimize risk with Rich, and the next conversation I'm going to go with him is asking him Rich, this sounds amazing, you're clearly an expert with it. What can we do with third of the budget that's been presented. Could we do it? Could we work on a component that you're the most confident in so that we can execute on that, show some wins and then double down on it.
And then before we spend millions on radio and TV, let's try to figure out the economics and the map, the science behind this. Once we get that formula, then the problem shifts to figuring out if this thing can scale. And at what point are we getting the diminishing rate of return? Get back to the question about the airline, I made sure that similar advice I got from people who are strategy consultants, I reached out to the founder of WestJet, I've read every airline book that's ever been written and figured, Oh man, there is a lot of risk to it.
But being a pilot, having the accessibility, let's start small. And I started small. I just put people into the Cessna 172, which was built in 1974, and did a viability test for flying people to the surrounding areas. This thing has legs, there was demand, and now let's get this financed. And that's when we entered the last 2007, 2008 financial crisis. And then I figured, this has been [inaudible 00:04:57] or put it on hold because it costs a bundle of money to finance an airline.
Corey Frank (05:03):
Does that mean you're going to have an airline for us later?
Sushee Perumal (05:05):
Absolutely.
Corey Frank (05:06):
It sounds like it still burns inside of you to do that.
Sushee Perumal (05:10):
Oh, it does. And mostly because of the accessibility I have. I want everybody to have it. Chris, in the last podcast, talked about going from Port Townsend to British Columbia and he was looking to... do I swim there? Do I get up on a paddleboard? I'm like, Chris, I can fly you up in 20 minutes.
Corey Frank (05:34):
Yeah.
Sushee Perumal (05:34):
The local convenience and the accessibility. If the opportunity is still there, and I need to go back at doing an industry scan and all of that, but I use the plane that I have access to on a regular basis. That's how we built MaxSold. We use a Cessna, like Chris uses ConnectAndSell. It's like how do we shorten that time to market dominance?
Corey Frank (05:56):
That's brilliant.
Sushee Perumal (05:57):
How do we get in front of as many people as we can to shake hands, kiss the babies, and learn and see how we can help solve their problem? And when you get face to face with somebody, when you're actually doing a tour of these houses or places they want to sell, we make this go whole lot faster than by any other means, than putting salespeople on the ground, training them, telling them about our approaches, all of that is just making those discovery calls in-person face-to-face, is what we were able to do with the Cessna.
Corey Frank (06:33):
That's brilliant. So when you look at MaxSold and the airline, I think for a lot of the folks who may not be that familiar with you, Sushee, they're going to assume that you come from a very wealthy family. You have access to unlimited streams of capital. You were born with the proverbial silver spoon. I think it would be helpful to frame exactly what kind of great story this is. Let's start at the beginning. Where did you come from and how did you end up as Auction King of North America?
Sushee Perumal (07:03):
Not quite yet. I'm a skinny kid from India. We lived in place that's no bigger than half the size of this room with not very much at all. And strangely enough, I think that fueled a lot of my entrepreneurialism because I saw my dad go from a super tiny place with not much at all to being able to golf every day and having chauffeurs and having the luxury, so I knew that... I've seen the evolution. Every three to four years, we would trade up, move up, live in better places, drive better cars. And I remember going from being on a bicycle, which is a very big... I think he had a motorbike, but not a nice motorbike, to having nice cars and that didn't happen overnight. It took many years. That's my beginnings. Not just learning and going back to what's the how can we do more with what we have? Because that's all we are going to get. Nobody's going to magically hand you a few million dollars to start a company or do things. We just have to use what we have and go at it incrementally, iteratively, and slowly build up
Corey Frank (09:20):
So you learned a lot of these traits from your father, then how did your father's influence and the role model that he was set you forth to inspire you to do the airline, and do all the other things leading up to MaxSold?
Sushee Perumal (09:35):
Growing up and I've read a lot of books where the prevailing mentality is stay within your lane, live within your means, but what I've been brought up with is it's not when everybody would start Mary had little lamb, I will start think big. What's the biggest swing you can take to... the world domination, market domination has been drilled into me as a child, right? When I learned the alphabet, and it was like, think big, world domination, you can achieve anything. So that gave me an incredible amount of confidence where I was able to reach beyond my levels of intelligence, and reach beyond what I think people have as artificial walls and boundaries and ceilings around them. So I never looked at those kinds of things as limitations.
I called up the founder of WestJet, the airline, and this is a multi-million dollar publicly traded company. I called him up and figured out a way to get to him via networking and other things. And because that wasn't a boundary or an artificial thing that I had in saying, Oh, that person is unaccessible and who am I to call him? I just said what's the worst that can happen, right? That answer your question, Corey? Just the principles that I've been given and taught is to think big and do the market... And that's why Chris and I connected so well, because world domination.
Corey Frank (11:01):
I think of one of our earlier episodes, Chris and I talked about nature versus nurture from an entrepreneur perspective, and clearly the environment that you grew up with, your parents gave you that raw material, that raw DNA to fuel. And so when a market dominance message from the likes of Chris Beall come into your world, it's already a snug fit. It's already a fully snug locking mechanism, if you will. From your perspective on market dominance, knowing that Sushee is a fully high beta market dominance practitioner now. When you see you're a dealer in math, you're a dealer in exponents. So what do you see is the path that Sushee has as he's on this market dominance? What can he expect from continue to adhere to these principles, so to speak, just from a theoretical laboratory perspective, as an early practitioner here as he's dominated some of the markets that he's entered?
Chris Beall (11:58):
The first thing you can expect is that the parasites are going to try to come in because he's raised money. The number one risk hidden in every market dominance play is its attractiveness to parasites. So if I were to give Sushee one piece of advice, it's, you're the immune system, keep the parasites out. And you know exactly what I mean, right? They come cloaked in talent, in pedigree, and in a huge amount of self-interest. You can tell a parasite when they say they're a team player. That's a guarantee in an interview. If somebody says they're a team player, they're guaranteed to be a parasite. That's really very safe. That's the spiky proteins on the outside of the virus that tell you, it's bad. Don't take that one in. Don't breathe that in, that one's going to kill you, right? So that'd be number one.
Number two is, and I think Sushee already knows this, but it's really interesting. Look at cycle times before you look at throughput for anything that you're experimenting on. Dominance comes in general, from driving denominators down rather than driving numerators up. Whatever cycle time you have now for some key activity, for whatever the bottleneck activity is, it's customer acquisition would be an example. You want to figure out how to get the cycle time down and paying attention to throughput. How many of them I can make per unit time is a secondary thing. Get to throughput after you have dominated cycle time and you really understand the cycle time issues around the bottleneck. There's only three things we can control in business other than our attitude and the company's attitude is generally controlled by the leader's attitude and the absence of parasites. The leader's attitude gives you everything you need as long as the parasites don't come in and suck the life out of it.
So leader's attitude, no problem for Sushee. But Sushee has a really complex situation because he's got to do regional execution. It's an on-the-ground business. I've run one of these. I know what it feels like. I'd call it inherently heavy in a funny way. That is, even if the individual operating units are light, the nature of the business is that it's heavy because it has to be anchored in some place. There are cycle time issues around everything in that place, and there's cost issues that come with it. He figured out how to drive cycle time down in terms of using that Cessna, right? That's the thing you keep playing. The denominator is your enemy. Drive it to zero and you can get to infinity.
That's what the math says in business. The numerator actually takes care of itself. The numerator's where you get more of something. You get network effects, you get market dominance effects through referenceability, you get scale effects. All those effects show up in the numerator, but dominance shows up by driving the denominator down. You'd get a lot more bang for your expended effort. And so cycle time may be on acquiring a customer, or a cycle time on setting up a new regional unit. Those things are going to be really key. If you can really stay focused on that, because every piece of advice you're going to get as a market dominance practitioner is going to be what I'll call it, numerator advice. Go get more of this, go plan for more of that, go to the channel because the channel is bigger than you are. Just all manner of things, because everybody is used to grinding on the numerator.
That's why, by the way, if you don't understand this, those little-
Sushee Perumal (15:33):
Billboards.
Chris Beall (15:35):
Yeah, exactly. It's really an interesting problem because our minds go to what we can see, and we can see growth in the numerator, and the denominator is invisible. We don't really see cycle times, but we only have cycle times, throughput and quality. That's all we got. So once you figure out the quality equation, which you have to figure out first. It's like what's above threshold quality, and then stop thinking about quality immediately other than maintaining it. The next equation is how do I drive down cycle time on the core duty cycle of this business? Whatever it is that if I could wave a magic wand and have more of it, instead of seeking more of it, let's make the thing that makes it go faster. That would be it. Other than that, keep your experiments small, because big experiments yield confusing results.
It's not that they're expensive, which is a problem, it's that they're confusing. We had this just happen the other day here, where we're doing an experiment around cleansing data, or calling in advance to make sure that you only have to call on the good stuff, right? And we conflated that experiment with three other variables, and somebody wanted to see if they could get this particular business value out of it internally, and blah, blah, blah. And next thing you know, we got bad science, right? So keep your science clean. And that means small experiments, because small experiments give clean results, so at least they have a shot. That's it. That's all I can tell you, Sushee, you got everything.
Sushee Perumal (17:00):
Well said. I'm going to replay this several times to my team when the podcast comes out.
Corey Frank (17:07):
It does bring up the next tangent we can finish here with is, the business as you've taken it over, and as you... we've talked about culture a little bit offline last week, and things that you're trying to do, certainly on the capital raise, things that you've been successful at, when you feel overwhelmed, or maybe a tad bit unfocused on all the different parameters or variables or inputs in the business? What does someone like Sushee do to level set and regain that laser focus on the business?
Sushee Perumal (17:43):
I look at it from a goals perspective. What is it that we are trying to achieve? What does the end in mind look like, and I just work backwards. Whether it's a way to market dominance, whether it's making a decision on where we're going to set up a call center, any of those things. And if it's overwhelming, I try not to introduce too much more information. I just look at what is the end state look like? How do we go at it with that end in mind, and then work backwards to figure out what are the pros and cons. What are we missing from the decision that needs to get made?
Chris Beall (18:16):
That's interesting. That's the essence of strategy, right? We've talked about strategy on Market Dominance Guys before. Strategy is always a list of steps, and it's essentially a plan to get to a goal. And the plan is not the tactics, the tactics are how you execute the steps. It's actually the intermediate steps, I call them resting places. If I get here, then I can see how... If I were there, I could get over there. And if I were there, I could get over there. I compare it to crossing a river. I used to spend a lot of time with a backpack on my back in the big mountains without any support, other than another guy and my legs and what was in the backpack, right? And you think the mountains would be the big obstacles, but it's not the case. It's the rivers that are the big obstacles.
And when you come to a river, it's always unique. I'm talking about places where there are no bridges, right? No bridges at all. No human beings live there, and nobody's ever built a rope bridge. And so your biggest obstacle is always figuring out how to cross a river, because swimming with the backpack is a bitch, I can tell you. And talk about risk, there's downside and there's no upside. You aren't coming back if you ever go face down in the water with 90 pounds on your back. And the big strategy question was, Okay, is there a series of rocks? Even if three out of the first five steps come back toward the current shore, as long as the ultimate path across the rocks leads to the other side, I don't need to get closer to the other shore with each step.
I need to get to a place I can stand from where I can go to another place I can stand that ultimately leads to the other shore. And I think you're describing that process of saying, my goal is the other shore now. But the easy thing is jump, right? Evel Knievel it. But generally, that's not... If it were that easy, somebody else has already done it. Who cares, right? But you've got to figure out a path. I had a question for you about this. When you're trying to do that, how do you get stuck? And by stuck, I mean in my classic model, right? The one some people heard before, which is you're either inflow stuck or you're waiting. So when you're figuring out strategy, you're stuck because you don't know the path. So now you think you've got part of the path, but now you're stuck. What do you do with your team to get unstuck when you don't know what to do next?
Sushee Perumal (20:39):
And that's probably the hardest thing that I'm often facing, which is the psychology of moving the people to the other side, or the psychology in trying to figure out how do we, as a unit, as a team, make that decision so that it's not a force of will, it's not somebody's opinion dominating. It's have we considered all the pros and cons and the risks so that we are not going face down into the water with a 90 pound backpack on our back? How can we articulate all the things that go into trying to make that decision? Well we've all been there. There could be somebody in the team that has a big voice that they're trying to influence everybody that their way is the only way. But as a leader, as a facilitator, I see my role as making sure that every opinion is considered, and I would probably run it by you, Chris, or by somebody saying, here's why we are stuck. Here are the pros and cons, all the inputs we have, what are we missing from this picture? What have we not considered? What are the unknown unknowns, because that's often what gets us, doesn't it? Looking at the unknown unknowns. So the team and the psychology or... That's really the hardest component is to make sure that's all well articulated.
Chris Beall (21:58):
So there's something brilliant hiding in there that I just got to get this out. Sorry to jump on it, but I just wanted to say this to all you entrepreneurs out there who are crazy enough to raise money. To open the poison closet and pull out a bottle of poison and say, I'm going to survive it. I have built up a resistance to iocaine powder. That's pretty good for you, Corey, especially. Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
Corey Frank (22:27):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (22:30):
Here's something that I think is a fact. Most entrepreneurs see this as exactly the opposite. The moment that money hits your bank account and you've closed that financing, I guarantee which state you're in. You're stuck. That's just a fact of the world. There is no way it could be anything else, because you're no longer waiting. As you're getting toward a close of any deal of any financing.
There's always a period where you're waiting. That is, it's all done, but it's not done, right? That's why we have all this, it isn't over until it's over kind of talk because it reminds us that sometimes we just have to wait before we start celebrating. Celebrating is not anything other than just preparing for the next thing. We're saying that's behind us, that something's in front of us, but I guarantee you, we're not in flow. We can't be in flow because being in flow means that I'm doing what I was doing before, and I'm continuing to do it in a way that's effortless because I practiced it and it's me now, right? But it's you, that's a previous you. Now you're the funded you and therefore, you're stuck. And I think that most entrepreneurs just don't get that.
They go, I've got the money. I put a plan in front of the investors. I must know what to do, let's go execute that plan, which is the single stupidest thing you can do when you take money, is to immediately execute the plan on which you raised the money.
Corey Frank (23:59):
Or I must be a lot smarter than I thought I really was, and everybody else saw through my ruse. Now, what do I do, right? The money is a validation for my clear intelligence.
Chris Beall (24:11):
I'm so impressed by Sushee, because you anticipated being stuck, and you started calling around. You put up a website, so it'd be easier to talk to people, have the right people talk to you. You reached out to a number of us, and you started really anticipating being stuck as soon as you were waiting, which is the smartest thing in the world to do is as soon as you're waiting, and you know you're going to be stuck, switch to learning mode, because the waiting is a waste, unless you do something else.
And the thing you should do is the thing that helps with the next thing. The next thing is guaranteed stuck. Stuck means I've got to learn. So you've just switched on learning, knowing you were going to be stuck, so why not just act like you're stuck? And I thought that was... I just had to bring it up, because I've never seen it before that in anticipation of a raise, you freaked out appropriately.
Sushee Perumal (25:04):
We had a number of proposals lined up so that we can hit those buttons and execute on those micro-experiments. As soon as the cash hits the bank.
Chris Beall (25:16):
That's pretty smart. When the cash hit the bank, you weren't stuck because you'd actually treated yourself as stuck earlier. That's just so unusual. I highly recommend that to anybody foolish enough to raise money.
Corey Frank (25:27):
I have a feeling that Sushee at this episode, your Sushee Perumal website, you're going to be hit with a lot of folks who are going to be hitting you up for mentoring advice I think, because you have so much to teach us all.
Sushee Perumal (25:40):
It was really set up so that I can learn from folks like you, Corey, and Chris, and Oren, who I can hopefully get introduction to, so that I can continue to get all the way up to Richard Branson.
Chris Beall (25:53):
There's guy who knows when he's stuck.
Chris and Corey's guest, Sushee Perumal, CEO of MaxSold tell us to take cautious steps when the tank is full of funding. Some of the highlights in this episode include:
Driving the concept of MaxSold's tagline, "From the sponge under the sink to the Ferrari in the driveway, we sell everything in two weeks." concept is the fact that live auctions were not and are not meeting the market needs. Sushee is the perfect example of Market Dominance, as well as a very likable person to know and work with. Hear this first of a two-part interview about the shortest path to market dominance.
From owning an airline because he wanted to cut his teeth in entrepreneurship, to dominating the market in relocation and downsizing services. Chris noted, "This is the end of the commute economy." This is because the relocation option we have completely turned this upside down in the recent months of COVID-19 - work from home forever.
Sushee explains how he chose to maximize the opportunity by minimizing the risk. Just because you have magic technology, doesn't mean you can execute new business.
Chris asked him, "Does this assessment process take 10 years before you put gas in the tank?" You'll have to listen to the surprising answer. How did he make the transition? He learned that you don't dominate by hiring a bunch of C-Suite staff. He also learned from his failed and struggling competition that you don't throw expensive parties as part of your ROI plan.
Be incremental. Be resourceful. Ask for advice - humbly. It helps that he embodies the value of being humble and likable.
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ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit ConnectAndSell to learn more. Conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below: Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys. A program about the innovators, idealists and entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business. So let's get going.
Announcer 2 (00:21):
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of ConnectAndSell, and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro.
Corey Frank (00:37):
Excellent. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall, and Corey Frank. So today I've put on a jacket, Chris combed his hair, and we actually have a guest that is worthy of the Market Dominance Guys to pretty up. And it's said that the things you own often end up eventually owning you. And I think if that's the case, Chris, then certainly our next guest has found the unlock key, if you will, to setting free your world again.
MaxSold. We have Sushee Perumal from MaxSold, CEO and Founder. MaxSold is one of North America's largest and fastest growing relocation, and downsizing simplification firms, auction houses. And simply put, if you got transferred to Omaha, and Sushee is going to tell us a little bit about this, you get transferred to Omaha, God forbid, and had just inherited a great uncle's estate in Vermont, or you simply want to declutter or to simplify your life, MaxSold is the answer. All you have to do is engage with them and they'll do all the work, and they send you a check. And so the CEO of MaxSold, Sushee Perumal, is with us today and his story, I think what Sushee and I have talked about, his story is up to this point, one that's probably worthy of at least a Joe Rogan roll cast, Joe Rogan podcast, I should say. But since we can't do that, he's going to have to settle for a couple of broken down sales guys like us. So welcome to the Market Dominance Guys, Sushee. It's a pleasure to have you.
Sushee Perumal (02:03):
Great. Thank you, Corey. It's a pleasure to be on the show. And I'm a big, big fan, and probably put in about a hundred miles listening to your podcast, and often I'm hitting replay, I'm doing that 15 minute rewind so that I can re-listen to what you and Chris say, because I just wish I was running with my notepad so that I can take notes.
Corey Frank (02:23):
It would look funny though.
Sushee Perumal (02:25):
The follow up date, the founder is it's a second generation auctioneer and he lives eats breeds auctions, but the live auctions are not meeting the market needs. He came up with this concept as, "Hey, we have the things call the internet. Why don't we leverage that to be a replacement for live auctions?" And so that's when I entered the picture and I transferred the phone number from my airline onto MaxSold and created a website, got the team going. And now we are just under 500 people on the ground to do the cataloging, photography and all of that. And I think Chris gave me this line, "From the sponge under the sink to the Ferrari of the driveway, we sell everything in two weeks." So being able to come in and vaporize everything, it's a huge burden off of their shoulders. For those that we serve. Thank you for inviting me for the show. Happy to be here and looking forward to learning a lot.
Corey Frank (03:24):
Well, that's great, I think-
Chris Beall (03:25):
Fantastic. It's great to have you here. You're the only guest we've ever had? We don't have very many guests, but you're the only one who's ever been able to say, "I transferred the phone number from my airline." I take it that doesn't mean the phone number you were using to call Air Canada, but that you actually had an airline. Is that true?
Sushee Perumal (03:42):
Correct. Yeah. So I decided to cut my teeth in entrepreneurship by starting an airline.
Chris Beall (03:48):
Why not?
Sushee Perumal (03:49):
Said, "Why not? Let's give this a shot." And the reason is I was trying to combine my passion for flying and the accessibility it gave me saying, "Hey, more people should have access to this." And I said, well, that was a time when the very light jets were coming out. Companies like Eclipse and Cessna was getting into this, Embraer was getting into this. So they've been creating planes that cost a fraction of your Gulf stream jets at a far better accessibility in terms of operating costs. So figured why not start a charter service with this? Charter airline service with this? This was my attempt at failing big and I succeeded at it.
Chris Beall (04:30):
That's a beautiful thing. Well, now you have a service that I think is suddenly even more important than it was before. Obviously crucially important for life changes, right? When somebody is retiring, when they're downsizing, when somebody passed away, when somebody has been transferred, all of those things were your bread and butter before, but now we have this sudden thing that's happened. And I don't think everybody's recognized it. I published something on LinkedIn the other day that said, "This is the end of the commute economy and between the savings on commuting and the productivity increase already being measured from work from home 47% productivity increase for people who are knowledge workers. We should see instantly actually already flowing about seven and a half trillion dollars a year into the US economy." Which is significantly bigger than the federal budget. It's almost as big as the entire debt of all us companies, right?
It's enough in one year to wipe out all the debt for US companies. Here we have this phenomenon that is occurring. And one of the side effects that I've noticed and I'm actually participating in is relocation to where it's desirable to live before retirement. Think of this as acting retired from a place perspective, 10, 20, 30 years before you retired, because you can now work from home and work from home forever. So suddenly the Ferrari in the driveway you thought was so important for your commute might be replaced with the four-wheel drive that is a great thing to have when you move to the mountains. Or in my case, my fiance and I are moving to Port Townsend, two plus hours away from her office. My office has always been an in house, but she works for Microsoft. They've worked from office company. Suddenly it's all choice, choice forever.
So people are suddenly moving and you just took down, my understanding is some funding ignoring my advice, of course, because If a guy spends a lot of time with me, learns to ignore my advice. It's actually its a skill that they acquire. Oh, not in going back 15 minutes to listen again and say, "What the hell was that guy saying?" So those are two really important skills you've picked up, but you've ignored my advice, you've taken money, but now you're suddenly armed with some cash going into what I call a high beta situation, where there was a lot of volatility. I'm not talking about market volatility in the financial markets, I'm talking about energy in the system. Think of it as lots of entropy. It takes a lot of information to describe what's going on now, which creates entrepreneurial opportunities because the big companies can't move were moving is required to be fast and small. And so you can do anything you want now. So now you can do anything you want better than an airline. So what are you going to do with that money to dominate?
Sushee Perumal (07:18):
Right. I spent a lot of time thinking about it while listening to you and Corey, Chris, as well as while reading books and other things. It's simply like, how do we maximize the opportunity at the same time minimizing the risk because there's few States are entering into the second wave, with the lockdowns are being lifted. And luckily we have a 10-year foundation of bootstrapping the business, finding out how we can create elasticity in the operations and the execution. So we can go from zero to a 100 or from a 100 back to 20, depending on this evolving situation we are in. So we want to make sure that continues. We all of a sudden don't want to blow millions of dollars on a TV and radio campaign, because if we are not able to execute on it, then we would have blown a bunch of money-
Sushee Perumal (09:11):
... oh as I was saying, what's the best way to maximize the opportunity to minimize the risk? By taking really cautious steps, but the tank now being full and having the luxury of having that.
Chris Beall (09:21):
Interesting. So let's talk about risk first. People who raise money in Silicon Valley, they don't really talk about risk. The risk to the business is the risk you can't raise more money. And that has to do with making what's called progress, which is kind of a euphemism for doing whatever the VCs at that moment think is pretty cool. Nowadays, it's gotten different, everybody's talking capital efficiency and unit economics. So that's how we control risk generally as by being efficient with our capital and managing the unit economics. But it sounds like you intend to do all of that while taking advantage of a market opportunity and dominating and doing it with the dominance, not being I'll call it, store bought. That is you're not going to buy the revenue, you're going to go earn the revenue somehow, but you're going to judiciously use this money in order to lubricate that process somehow, is that kind of how to look at it?
Sushee Perumal (10:12):
It is. Oh yeah, absolutely, Chris. Like I would say looking at the shortest path to market dominance, we want to... I like how you said it earlier in other podcasts about looking at your market as lists. We are constructing a playbook with all these lists that we can execute on and seeing how do we maximize the opportunity and minimize the risk? Because if we start executing on the lists, if we can't deliver on the product, then we would have blown a bunch of money. So we are trying to figure out how to manage that cautiously.
Chris Beall (10:42):
Interesting. What does this spring to mind for you, Corey? Do you think that the amount of time that Sushee and company have spent really figuring this thing out 10 years, is that necessary? Or can you figure out one of these things in 10 hours? I mean, it's taken us more than 10 years. We've been at this 14 years, I figure tomorrow afternoon, I'm going to figure out ConnectAndSell. That's my fantasy, because on Saturday, every once in a while, I think, "Oh I got it." Right? But it seems to be a much more incremental and iterative process than that often with what can only be described as a little backsliding here and there, where your brilliant idea becomes something that was so... Our example is we started a thing called Outbound on Demand and it was just going to do outsourced appointment setting. And it was so easy to sell if we didn't recognize that just because you have magic technology doesn't mean you can execute a new business, right?
So we were very poor execution player in a crowded market that was oddly easy to sell because everybody will try a new outsourced appointment center. It's the nature of that business. It's a chocolate chip cookie business. If you come out with some cookies, everybody's going to try a cookie. And the question is, are they going to buy a hundred million cookies? And the answer turned out to be, I don't know, we didn't stay around to find out. We retreated. We back slid, so to speak into our core. So Corey, you've seen tons of this. And Sushee, you must have done some of this. So let's start with you, Corey. Do you really think it takes 10 years to figure out or some amount of time to grind it up and figure out the execution side before you should put gas in the tank and hit the accelerator?
Corey Frank (12:14):
It's funny, Chris. Ryan Reser and I had a conversation about this just the other day, about how seemingly sophisticated organizations that at its surface, you would think have all the math of sales already instituted. They must have the math of sales because they're excise and they've raised Y amount of dollars and they have Z amount of team members and reach. And then in talking with this particular prospect, who's thinking about coming on Uncommon Pro, you realize that a lot of it has just been, I don't want to say luck, but it's certainly hard work and grit, but they didn't understand the why of what got them there. And because you don't understand the why or the metrics of what got you there. I think you're kind of just a ship without a rudder, just drifting from port to port, hoping the certain winds will take into a porter prosperity.
And when that happens, just because of riding the trade winds, I think once or twice, I think a lot of us, and I've certainly been there. You start to believe that you're actually better than you are, but you're not able to define the process or the science of it. Certainly what I'm curious from you, Sushee is when you looked at this business that was 10 years old and took, took it over and you infuse it with capital and culture. As we talked about the other day, what science, what process did you use as you have all the risk pieces on the board, so to speak, and you say, we going to deploy X amount of armies here into this market and X amount of armies to do this market. Chris and I threw a little bit of that thought process of how do you start? Because there's tons of auction houses out there and you guys have seem to really find a niche.
Sushee Perumal (13:53):
Absolutely. And there are other auction houses that entered the space tens and millions of dollars of VC cash. And so studying them, we figured out what not to do, which is hire a bunch of CMOs, CROs, VP of sales, going to every market with five or six sales reps that are from high-end auction houses and high-end real estate companies. We also figured out from studying the competition, not to throw $30,000 parties with the hopes of getting a return on investment. It's very much been an incremental and iterative process to figure out the science and the mechanics of things. So we, as an example, with buyer acquisition, we figured out what the cost per acquisition is, how long it takes to get to an ROI, what channels do they come from? And also the scale up limits, but several channels. So it's the same sort of path we are on in this next phase is to figure out whether we can increase those limits, whether that math scales.
So if its acquisition through search engine marketing, there's only so many people searching to try to figure out how are they going to solve the problem of having a house full of things to sell. So once you're maxed out on search engine marketing, then what do you do, right? Then let's go to channel two and figure out here are the scale-up limits. And here's what the payback period looks like. And then we go to channel three, which is outbound. And that's how I bumped into Chris. When the problem that we are trying to solve is, "Gosh, it takes so much time to call real estate agents. We have 20,000 real estate agents in a city calling them is going to take years or decades. So how do we short circuit figuring out whether or not this channel is going to work and the science of that particular acquisition channel?"
So that's what led me to ConnectAndSell, so that we can get the math of sales figured out in really short order. And we figured it out. We figured it out within a week, whether or not this particular channel was going to be a factor or not, which is real estate, realtor outreach.
Chris Beall (13:53):
Within a week.
Corey Frank (16:09):
Within a week?
Chris Beall (16:09):
And we figured out. Oh, I'm a hundred percent. Like I was floored that we could figure out this, something that would take us months, if not years, we were able to compress that timeline. So the channels that are working, that we have the math and science behind it, but there are scale-up limits to those. So we need to tackle other channels and we can't run out of gas or we can't organically fund tackling other channels, which is why we took on this raise. We did this fundraise so that we can go at market dominance faster, so that doesn't take us another 10 years to figure out. So that we can first two things. One, scale up the things that are working and second tackle other channels so that we can scale those up as well. So instead of only being able to afford 10 or 20 grand on radio advertising, I can all of a sudden afford more. And if it works, I can put fuel to that fire.
Rich Kagan will be a happy guy if that works out, huh? I'm going to be watching this carefully because I've been talking to Rich and we're in a similar situation without the raise. We're actually doing a little raise right now. Maybe by the time this goes to air, we will have raised, maybe not. Who knows? I think our story is always a little bit tricky because we're so unusual, but this is another thing that I think is fascinating is that it's just sharing information with other entrepreneurs around what's worked. Like you and I spoke about something the other day that it just turns out I have a weird part of my past involving a floor finishing company that I created. It's kind of like an airline. If you think about it right? And a national skill floor finishing company, trying to fix all the floors in every hospital in America.
So it's a little more prosaic. I think jets are cooler when you think about it, but yeah, floors they're all right. But we had a little kind of a legal structure and a financing structure that is very, very unusual. And I don't know if you're going to use it or not, but it's something we could share just by talking. And I think something that folks should keep in mind when they're going aftermarket dominance is while this might be your first rodeo in a particular channel or a particular market dominance challenge, it's probably not everybody's, but without conversations, we can't really discover, like there's no catalog, there's no ontology of market dominance stuff, right?
I mean, we have a trick, "talk to lots of people." And we know how to apply that trick, like magic acid to dissolve a raft of problems, but not all problems. And so I think one of the things I think you do exceptionally well, maybe better than anybody I've ever met is you are very humble and open about reaching out to other people and getting advice. You just make it abundantly clear to all of us that it's a good idea for us to help you. And I think that's a remarkable skill. Where did you learn that? That's really uncommon among entrepreneurs. They tend to lone wolf that a little bit.
Sushee Perumal (19:00):
That's a great question. Well, I think maybe being a business analyst as my first job out of engineering. So I went into this Telekom, The Bell and I was asked to tackle as people assumed I was more intelligent than I am. Right? So they gave me all these responsibilities. I'm like, "Holy cow, how am I supposed to get this done?" So I just ended up picking people's brain. Now I'm like, "Can you help me with this? Can you teach me how this works? Can we figure this out? Can you show me the lay of the land?" And I remember my leader telling me that the one time I thought everybody does this. And apparently they're surprised they're doing this, which is, I reached out to a vendor they'd given a system to test, but there was no support at all.
So long story short, I reached out through this really weird way of great to the engineering team that had built that product. And even Dave was surprised like, "How did you get my number? Like how did he get my contact info?" So I'm like, "Well, this is what I'm trying to achieve. So can you help me with this?" So I think it's just being resourceful, being frugal, trying to figure things out. And I thought everybody had the same skill set, but I'm just starting to figure out not everybody does. Not everybody goes to people for advice and tries to get this whole thing figured out.
Chris Beall (20:16):
Remarkable. Corey has it also. You guys are both just super exceptional at being humble. And every once in a while, I've worked with Corey where he thought he knew. And it seems to have been disabused of that notion over time. But you both have this incredible ability I think, to actually just humbly ask somebody for advice and not just do it, kind of like a, "what do you think?" Like they do it in a way that challenges them and makes them want to go deep with you and see what you're really asking. And I think is an under understood, under-taught part of the market dominance equation. We've never really talked about it, Corey, that we've kind of talked about it, like go ask the market through tons of conversations. Right?
Corey Frank (20:58):
Sure.
Chris Beall (20:59):
But that's one thing to do, but you could actually use the same conversation first approach to go ask for advice. And I think that you guys are really masters of that.
Sushee Perumal (21:09):
Yeah. And one of the podcasts, you talk about salespeople having this confirmation bias that's overwhelming. And the only reason you would be curious is about the timeline and the budget. They don't go into a discovery call genuinely wanting to understand and learn. So, that resonated with me. And I think that's the approach I'm taking is, "Let's figure this out. How can you help me with this?" And that's from your... You talk about knocking on doors as a full of brush salesman. And that's what you were asking. Right? You were doing discovery calls.
Chris Beall (21:41):
Yeah. It's an interesting question. I mean, I told salespeople all the time in sales and I think sales as semi-interesting market dominance is very interesting and sales has a role and market dominance. But I tell them all the time that you need to believe, but you must not sell. And what you need to believe is that what you have is of potential value and that you don't know how that might work out for this individual. If you believe those two things, then you open up a path to have conversation about what their situation might be. And you can discover for real, whether you should continue to engage, which is the only thing worth discovering is whether you should continue to engage. Because the only currency we run out of all the time is time. And we get reminded of that all the time when something happens that reminds us, all we have is time, right?
I mean, we've all had events like that in our lives. And so I just think it's fascinating that we often think it's about money, it's about data, it's about analysis. But when you come right down to it, it's usually about being humble, believing in what you offer as potential that you are an expert at something, you know, you have some value and then having conversations to find out where the fit is. I call it tapping the bells. I think that we've said this before, but I'll say it again. If somebody presented you with the problem, "I have a thousand bells, but only 10 of them are bells. 990 of them just look like bells. And we're going to put a bell up in the bell tower and it's going to have to ring once an hour on the first hour or twice on the second hour.
And by the time we get up to noon, it's got to ring 12 times." And if it's made of clay, it's going to fall apart. Your job Sushee, without being able to do anything other than interact with the bells is to figure out which ones are made of brass and which ones are made of clay. All you can do is tap the bells, right? That's the conversation. All you can do is have the conversation and see if it resonates. And if it resonates, then it's worth moving forward and finding out if you like the other features for the thing. And I think you just have been exceptional at doing that through your career.
Announcer 2 (23:49):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern and innovative sales and scripting tool set, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com. Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.
In this episode Corey asks Chris, "The other leaders that you've observed from being an investor or executive or being you know board member CEO, do you want to surround the issue and debate for the sake of maximizing all the different off-ramps that you could take or is it genuinely from a science level scientific level that you have your flag?"
This leads to Chris talking about the three stages of your business or career, he says, "I'd like to think of myself as the guy who insists that we go science first. And if you're going to go science first. That means you have to be ready to do experiments and experiments are very well understood. We know how to do experiments been doing a lot of science for a long time. That means you've got to be math first because doing experiments that don't have a shot mathematically is ridiculous and you shouldn't do that.
----more----
So you got to keep the number of experiments down to a minimum and cram them in a small amount of time for a small amount of cost. I'm not a fan of internal debate for a long period of time. I think you debate just long enough to determine one of three states. And I think we should all consider this as a way to run our lives. Not that I'm here to tell people how to run their lives, but what the heck. So we're in one of three states. I think this is sort of mathematical truth or truth of life state number one is we're in flow. And when we're in flow, we should stay in flow.
That's, that's just a great policy when it's working. To start to invent new thoughts or new strategies or new ways of holding the racquet in tennis, you need to adjust, you go change your shoes so you can play better. You're in flow, and you stay in flow.
What would be the point of developing great skills and I'm not continuing to use them. When the road keeps paving itself in front of you, all you have to do is stay on the path.
Don't fall, don't talk about it. Don't think about it, just go do it and keep your eyes open, but go ahead and crash into something that's okay. That takes us to the second state we're in often. That is a state that I call stuck. I love the word stuck because it actually colloquially means what the state means which is, 'I'm stuck.' I actually can't move forward, but it's not normally because I've lost my motive power. It's not like my legs fell off. It's because I don't know which way to go. And when we're stuck. We can do something and it's really clean and organizations have a hard time doing and individuals have a hard time doing it but organizations have a harder time because we have to admit, we're stuck and stuck is synonymous with. We don't know. We don't know what to do. And if there's anything that I would advise young entrepreneurs. to get comfortable with, it's the fact that often you don't know what to do and a thing to do. That's incredibly effective when we're stuck is to say we're stuck."
Listen to this episode to learn how to embrace stuck and then what the third state is all about.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:32):
Or imagine a dog sled, how many dogs would have to pull sideways to ruin a dog sled. It's only one. You got to lead dog and you got a second dog. If the second dog pull sideways, you are toast. You don't have a chance because there's a lot of leverage up there from a parasite anywhere near the top is tough, so keep those out. And then take in folks who have a proven track record of talking sense into other people. You don't want to know their answers. You want to get access to their impression and their negative wisdom and positive wisdom, but you want the negative wisdom first. You certainly want them to say something too. It's like, it seems to me, somebody who says "it seems to me" is probably a pretty good bet. Somebody who says, "I think you should" probably a pretty bad bet.
It seems to me that the way that you're anticipating deploying capital, you're going to run out well before you achieve dominance. So what do you think is the right thing to do at that point? And you're going to answer them. "Well, I'll go raise more money". Okay, so what's that going to look like? What's that going to feel like? So saying it takes twice as long to get there as you usually would, as you plant. Right? So now it's a two X time and now you're raising money. So some folks are tired and it's not. What's that like? "Oh man, that is not so great". So you kind of have to work your way into, well, what might we do differently today? And it's almost always in the model and there's only kind of three things to do, right? One is to reduce my burn, my overhead.
Another is to accelerate my acquisition of new customers that are going to bring value over time. And the third is make my product fit the situation better so that it provides more value or is easier to buy, or one of those various things, like three dimensions to the whole problem. The fourth one, which is just add money, is almost never a right answer, almost never.
Chris Beall(02:26):
But yet you see that in so many companies that are struggling or stagnant stalled, they may have a negative burn rate and their answer isn't necessarily to focus on product market fit, or certainly they've nibbled, maybe some costs here and there, but it's usually focused on, we need to raise more money. Otherwise, we got to pop smoke and get a chapter to lift us out of here.
Corey Frank (02:48):
Right? Well, folks, I think there's a kind of person, kind of entrepreneur, but they're really working for VC Inc.
And that's what the audit do. Okay, figure out how to raise some money. Some sort of a bridge somewhere and somewhere might be a salvage and I might be a lucky hit, but at least then they go on and get another job with another VC company. And that's perfectly fine. It's the career choice. There's nothing wrong with it. It's like working for a big company is just different. It's working for a series of small companies and occasionally you get a win and it's lots of fun. You get to have small teams and all that smallness is great. It's not quite the same as being an entrepreneur who is trying to build something and it's strapped to the bumper and driving in traffic, that's a different thing entirely. And in that case, you've got to look at those three dimensions. And if it does turn out, you need to raise money, then raise money.
It's much better to raise money, to take advantage of an unexpected opportunity than to cover up an unexpected hole in your finances. A case like this right now, we have this horrible thing going on in the world at this month. We're recording this in the time of COVID and lots of things are different. So is it a great opportunity or not for any given company? So actually the first question you should ask about any change is not what's this going to do to me, but does this present a great opportunity and an unprecedented opportunity for us? Because if you don't ask that first, you'll never get around to it because everything offers lots of problems. So once you start talking about the problems, you just talk about the problems forever, right? The answer to that question tells you, "Well, what should my stance be? What should we be looking for?".
If it's possibly a great opportunity situation, how can we explore that inexpensively and quickly? How can we find out if it's a great opportunity? So for our company, for instance, it connects and sell. This whole COVID-19 thing is probably a great opportunity. Why? Well, because hundreds of thousands of salespeople got sent home and their managers can't tell what they're doing. And people have crazy ideas, like security cameras to spy on people and click trackers and all this nonsense, right? Which everybody thinks for 10 seconds, notice is never going to fly. You can't compete for talent and say, "And by the way, the number one thing we do is spy on you". That's not really going to work, right? Because some competitor will say, "No, we'll trust you". It's like, I'm working for that guy. You missed your spike.
Right? But it is important to see what folks are doing or you can't help them. So when there's change though, big change and business is all about adaptation and change. What we need to do first is ask, "Is this a big opportunity?" and if so, "How do we characterize it quickly?" and then ask the question, "Does it advise us to get some capital together in order to take advantage of that opportunity?". That's a great reason to raise a little bit of money. Maybe even a lot. You never know, maybe something. And so the changes I tend to create my problems by addressing are the ones that are, I call them, kind of model level at some people might call them paradigmatic. It's such a loop that even seems like we got the model wrong here. Nobody ever wants to hear that kind of crap. Right?
I mean, really, who wants to even think about that. But every once in a while you do have a model wrong. They're a hundred percent fatal when you get the model wrong, which is why I'm kind of risk-averse. So oddly enough, you know what I used to do for fun, right? I used to climb mountains and stuff like that. And I still do certain things that people would think are not zero risk. Risk-averse, people can do those things. That's how you get to the age of 65 and you're still alive if you do stuff like that, you better be fundamentally risk-averse, which means oddly, you need to be open-minded to the possibility that what you're doing is wrong, because that's where the big risks hide and continuing down a path that goes off Niagara falls.
And you just thought it was a rock concert that you were going to, right? Well, it was the rocks were at the bottom of the falls and you will be in concert with them rather correctly. So anyway, the other is I can be a little bit argumentative. I don't think in a negative way. I just don't roll over very easily in the face of what I think is an illogical argument.
Chris Beall(07:04):
Do you want to debate? As a leadership style from, again, not just you, but certainly, we'll pick on you, but all the other leaders that you've observed from being an investor or executive or being board member CEO, do you want to surround the issue and debate for the sake of maximizing all the different off-ramps that you could take? Or is it genuinely from a science level scientific level that you have your flag, you have your banner and you want to teach and the stakes are highest for you, so to speak?
Corey Frank (07:35):
Well, I'd like to think of myself as the guy who insists, we go science first. And if you're going to go science first, that means you have to be ready to do experiments and experiments are very well understood. And we know how to do experiments, been doing a lot of science for a long time. And that means you've got to be math first because doing experiments that don't have a shot, mathematically is ridiculous. It shouldn't do that. So you've got to keep the number of experiments down to a minimum and cram them in a small amount of time, small amount of cost. But to do that, [inaudible 00:08:06] stuff away with logic. And I'm not a fan of internal debate for a long period of time. I think you'd debate just long enough to determine one of three States and I think we should all consider this as a way to run our own lives.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Connect and sell. Welcome to the end of dialing. As you know it, Connect and Sell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within connect and sells powerful platform. Your team's effectiveness will skyrocket by using connect and sells teleprompter capability as they'll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. So come on, give your fingers arrest with connect and Sell. Visit connectandsell.com.
You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of Connect and Sell and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro.
Corey Frank (09:21):
Not that I'm here to tell people how to run their lives, but what the heck? Right? So we're in one of three States, I think this is sort of mathematical truth or truth of life. State number one is, we're in flow. And when we're in flow, we should stay inflow. That's just a great policy when it's working. If you're on the tennis court and you're lacing those down the line backhands, and those cross-court forehands that are winners over and over and over, it's a bad time to start to invent new thoughts or new strategies or new ways of holding the rack or go change your shoes. You're in flow, you stay inflow. Again, I'll go to our product. One of the great things I love about Connect and Sell is, it lets you get into flow with regard to conversations and stay there for hours because you're either having one or you're hyped up about to have one that's not very far off.
So staying inflow is the key to performance, right? What would be the point of developing great skills and then not continuing to use them when the road keeps paving itself in front of you. It just, "Drive, baby". Right?
Chris Beall(10:27):
All you have to do is not fall out.
Corey Frank (10:29):
Don't fall. Yeah. And just don't talk about it, don't think about it. Just go do it and keep your eyes open, but go ahead and crash into something. That's okay. The second state we're in often is a state that I call stuck. I love the word stuck because it actually colloquially means what the state means, which is "I'm stuck. I actually can't move forward", but it's not normally because I've lost my motive power. It's not like my legs fell off. It's because I don't know which way to go.
And when we're stuck, we can do something and it is real clean and organizations have a hard time doing, and individuals have a hard time doing it, but organizations have a harder time because we have to admit we're stuck and stuck as synonymous with we don't know what to do. And if there's anything that I would advise young entrepreneurs to get comfortable with, it's the fact that often you don't know what to do and a thing to do that's incredibly effective when we're stuck is to say, we're stuck. Just verbalize it, "We're stuck". It means we don't know what to do. And if somebody says, "no, no, I know what to do". They're probably not right. They're probably guessing. And there is a role for guessing and we'll get to that in a moment. But the first thing we do when we're stuck, as we stop pretending we're in flow. Stop pretending we're in flow.
Sure. We still got to eat. We got to sleep and do a bunch of these necessary things. We still have to sell stuff. We're going to keep the wheels turning on the business, but let's recognize we're stuck. And this COVID thing actually for a bunch of companies suddenly made them stuck. And instead of saying, "we don't know what to do", they said, "Well, let's start doing stuff". But that leads to the next part of stuck, which is you have to ask yourself then, if it's as bad as it looks, whatever that is, that means my overhead is burning my capital and it's burning it at a higher rate, so I might run out of money. That's the worst one. Look at the date when that might happen and ask yourself the question, "Is that the amount of time we have to get unstuck. And if it is the amount of time we have to get unstuck and it's long, then let's go learn.
When you don't know, learning is the way to know, how do you learn through science? We do experiments. So the next natural question is what experiment is going to yield the most information about our stuck situation in which direction we might go the fastest at the lowest cost. And that's a very concrete question to debate. And when you get down to the debate being difficult, then you no longer have to debate anymore. Cause as soon as it's difficult, whatever it is, it's two options. Well, as soon as it's hard to decide between them, it's easy to decide between them. There's nothing to it. Just pick one. And that's the role of the CEO. That's the role of the boss. The role of the boss is to guess when you don't know, and there's more value in making a decision now than there is and making a marginally better decision later.
And that could be even a big decision where you have no information, but you have no tie, so the CEO guesses. That's why I call the CEO role, "The Guesser". And when I hire people, I say, one thing you got to know is in our organization, I'm the Guesser. And this is really bad because it's also corrupt. It's completely corrupt because the Guesser guesses when we're out of time and we don't have enough information, must make a decision. And the Guesser who also declares that we're out of time, we don't have enough information, must make a decision. So it's a totally corrupt role. And I'm sorry, but it's like a mathematical singularity. We can't get away from it. There's no escape. As Edward Abbey once said, "We'll find out who a philosopher is compared to a practical person. When you throw a brick at the head of a true philosopher, he doesn't duck". Well, the rest of us duck, right?
And so you're depending on the head, no one wanted to dock. And that's why you put a person in the CEO position that you trust to guess. That's the one thing, they're not going to steal that is do things for themselves and they're not going to guess. I mean, they are going to guess when the time is right, but then there's the third stage that's really important. And this is the one that people just blow a hundred percent of the time. You never see anybody put this right, ever. And it's the state many, many companies are in right now. And it's kind of an ironic state. It's a state of waiting. We should wait for something. Now I'm not saying the COVID thing means we should all be just sitting around, waiting in the foxhole. All contrary, we're burning, right?
Most companies can't afford to wait, but certain big companies can wait. They got the capital to wait. And if you don't know what to do or you know what to do, but you have to wait for a resource. It's like trying to go through a door before you've opened the door is a dumb plan. If somebody else is going to open the door and that's a great idea is to have them open the door. You have to wait. Now there's a wonderful thing about waiting. Unless you're single-threaded on everything in your world, you can take the wait time and you can use it to go learn about some other things you're stuck on. So waiting is truly waiting and it's the hardest of them all because it's an emotional impossibility for a group to wait, cause somebody is antsy and wants to go and that person's going to agitate for it. So go find something else for you all to go and stuck on and research.
Chris Beall(15:35):
It's not progress even. It's not the implied mode of progress, either moving forward or playing your arms or activity. Activity, sometimes in a business, just connotes you're doing something. Waiting is, I feel like I'm being overpaid as to wait, but I'm reminded of Tom Watson, the founder of IBM, I think at 1947. When he started, I think I seem to read somewhere that he had a simple phrase written on all of his executive board room, whiteboards or green boards at the time chalkboards at the time. It was one word and it just said, "Think".
Just to the point where sometimes just thinking or waiting or processing is working and you don't have to have this implied or perceived activity to be justified by the powers that are earned in your key. Sometimes it's simply waiting for the door to open. I think that's beautiful, Chris. So in other words, and also it seems like from a starter perspective, state number two of being stuck where you talk about, "I don't know which way to go", "We should probably test", "We're definitely not in flow", "I need to evaluate how much capital I have", that's the state of most startup businesses as it's a force needs to become in motion versus a force already in motion tends to remain in motion,
Corey Frank (16:55):
All startups start stuck.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
All startups start stuck. I love that.
Corey Frank (17:00):
All startups start stuck. That's the starting state of all startups. The flow state you want to get into is the flow within the first experiment. And when the first experiment yields enough information, stop, then you go back into a state of being stuck and you design the second experiment. Maybe you already have it designed, but I hope not because if you don't take the information for the first experiment, use it to design the second, you are sort of throwing away the primary resource you're trying to gather, which is information about what the market, as a list might want and pay for in order to solve a problem that they have today and we'll continue to have in some future. If we don't recognize that startups start stuck, it's a beautiful place to start. It's why actually most startups fail. They start stuck and they unstuck. And in between, they flail around thinking that activity is going to get them unstuck.
But what gets you unstuck is experiments, because that's the only way to find out about the world, what's true. So the tendency is to have internal debate. I've had a lot of founders tell me, "I spent six weeks working on this business plan and I've thought of everything". And I always think back to a company that we did call finished line floors, where the idea came to several of us on a Friday by looking at a floor that was outside of a Starbucks in Des Moines, Iowa. And somebody asking a question of somebody else, "How long do you think this beautiful, shiny floor has been down here?". I said, "What does that even mean?". I was the somebody else. And the answer to that question back and forth revealed a possibility of a multi-billion dollar business. So I went home and wrote a business plan.
It was pretty detailed. Big spreadsheets going on and on and on because what I wanted to know was if we do it, is it worth it? Cause I don't know anything about floors. And by Sunday evening I convinced myself that it was worth presenting to somebody with some money to who might be interested to say, "Yeah, I think this, if we can pull it off, I think it's hard, but I think it'd be worth it. What do you think?". And he wrote me a check at dinner for about 300,000 bucks and we started the company on the spot and started operating the next day. So that was between a Friday and a Monday with the drive back and forth to Boulder, Colorado and Des Moines, each way. I had a very fast car. So it was all right. But that's an appropriate amount of time to build a business plan and appropriate number of people, which is one, after all, it's only an exercise to answer this question, "If this works out, would it have been worth doing?".
At that point we could say, "Okay, now we're stuck, right? Isn't that great? We're stuck". Here's what we don't know. We don't know actually how to put one of these floors down. Okay, well let's do some experiments. So, who's the manufacturer of the product? What do they recommend? Can we get some experts who put other kinds of floor finish down? It was a water-based Euro thing. What environmental controls do we do they think we need, can we set that up? When we set up in two days and experimental test bed of a floor with some control over airflow and stuff like that. When an expert roll the floor in our cycle time for, is it working was one day, cause it took six hours to dry. And then we were getting information, right? And we got that information in a series of experiments. And at the end of a week and a half, it's like, all right, this can be done under these circumstances. "Just be open about it, man. You're stuck. Get good at being stuck.
Chris Beall(20:28):
Ray reminded Chris of Ray Dalio's book principles here. And he has this image of the proper evolution of a business, which sounds exactly what you're talking about here, right? Is in flow and stuck and then keep experimenting. And one thing Ray says here is evolution is the single greatest force of the universe. It is the only thing that is permanent and drives everything. And it consists of adaptation as inventions that provide spurts of benefits that decline in value. So these benefits or values seem to have a half-life that what got you in flow state doesn't necessarily maintain that flow state permanently.
Corey Frank (21:10):
High flow can never be permanent. It's wise to treat it as permanent while you're in it. And it's also wise to keep financial buffers and emotional buffers against its inevitable failure. It's just like the business cycle. The business cycle is built into the very nature of how we invest in businesses. At the beginning of a business cycle, it seems like there are some opportunities. So investors come in and they do some investing and the investment has returned. So there are some opportunities. So there's more investment. That's not the issue. The issue is how much risk? Well, if it keeps working out, we must be able to buy more risk. So keep buying risk, combined risk. But the information about how much risk we have doesn't come into the future. So when it does come in the form of failures, then we go, "Oh my God, we must have gotten past the edge of the risk" and all investments stops and the economy freezes up and then look, it's rethought by like capital liquidity coming usually from government.
And we go through it, right? We got to the same thing. That's the same cycles. I love Ray Dalio's picture there. And we go through them in life. Look at how we work as animals. We're not particularly active in the night as a species, right? Some people are, I mean, not so much now because they can't go to bars or maybe they are gone to bars. I hear in some places they do that again. But there's a period during which we're not stuck. We don't need to do experiments and we're not in flow. We're actually waiting. We're waiting for our body to get back into a state where we can execute and we have to wait. We call it sleep, kind of close. Right? And it looks just like that, right? Because the value of the activity decays over time. And by the way, those decays often look like cliffs because this is another fact of the world.
There are very, very, very, very many ways for a system to fail a system that consists of 10 interacting parts has more ways to fail than there are atoms in the universe. There are very, very few ways for a system to work. Everything's got to work. So even small amounts of friction or little misalignments, or you take a big machine, that's got a bunch of gears and you take one gear out, you shave the teeth off of it, or you freeze it up. All of us who've ever worked as mechanics. And as you know, I used to do that at one point in my life on air-cooled engines. You know that the whole thing has to work. And in most random States, it doesn't. Right? It just doesn't. If you throw out a cup of sugar into a gas tank, [inaudible 00:23:42].
Adding carbohydrates to other carbohydrates looks good to me. I get an engine that doesn't work anymore. And there's just one of the very little water. Water's good. Gasoline's water, waters. I mean, water is a fluid. Let's put them together, maybe there'll be great. Well, it doesn't work anymore. Right? Almost everything doesn't work. And everything of value as a system, every execution unit of value is the system. Companies are systems. So companies have a marvelously large number of ways to not work. And they have almost one way to work. And when they stop working, sometimes you need to just oil them. Cool them down on oil, like sleep. You cool it down, you oil it, you put a little fuel in it, right? Make sure it can go the next little bit. And that's just fine. Sometimes you got to replace a part and sometimes you realize that the system is no longer designed for the terrain it finds itself in.
And you've got to put more wheels on or paddles instead of wheels or tracks instead of paddles or rotors, so you can get above the terrain or something in the design cause it doesn't work anymore because the circumstances for which it was designed are no longer those that obtain. And without having these paradigms to think about, these comparisons. I think the stuff's really, really hard. I mean, if somebody says, I.
Sometimes people complain about me a lot is what's with all the damned analogies, right? Well,
Chris Beall(25:06):
You've had so many jobs and from the age of a lemon, I think you can draw from most people think it's an analogy. It's actually a basis in reality. Let me tell you, it looks like an air-cooled engine or it's like a can of bug spray. You ever use a can of bug spray for a black widow? There's no light. There's no metaphor. It really is. Right? It's a simile.
Corey Frank (25:27):
It's like being held up at gunpoint, at a theater that you work at North Tucson.
We'll leave that one alone.
Chris Beall(25:38):
I haven't heard that one before.
Corey Frank (25:40):
We'll [inaudible 00:25:41] that out sometime, but there's some, I found out that insurance investigators are superior to the police when it comes to solving certain classes of crimes.
Chris Beall(25:48):
Well, they have a higher motivation. They have a higher value to motivation to do as such, so.
Corey Frank (25:53):
And greater freedom of action.
Chris Beall(25:55):
And greater freedom action. True. True.
Well, I like this. I like all market nondominant companies are equally uninteresting and all startups start equally stuck. And I think that will go into the lore as well.
Corey Frank (26:08):
Well, thanks Chris. I think this episode, I knew we were going to draw plenty of nuggets from hearkening to your past to help other people in their future, particularly when it comes to getting their businesses off the ground. So again, we'll just keep throwing up those questions and keep milking that wisdom. This is great stuff.
Chris Beall(26:27):
So until next time on the market dominance guys, this is Chris Beall and
Corey Frank (26:32):
Corey Frank.
Announcer (26:38):
Today's show is also brought to you by uncommonpro.com. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through a modern, innovative sales and scripting toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com.
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Businesses are not evolutionary endpoints. Businesses can be endlessly inventive. Why is it that putting a bookstore on the internet would lead to the world's richest man? If price isn't your differentiator, you'll work really hard to find one and fail. A business plan tells you if it's worth doing. Will this have been worth doing?
What's the smallest thing I can do in the shortest amount of time that will give me evidence to confirm or disconfirm my core thesis? Root in your own experience, not in somebody else's business book. Your experiences are your core differentiator. That's what you're bringing to the party.
The person screwed on price wins on convenience or timing. I want a startup because all the cool kids have a startup. Really? Every new business is a start-up.
----more----
Chris's advice on starting a new business?
- LOW OVERHEAD. If you can ever get your overhead covered 100%, you should immediately go start a business.
- OVERREACH. Don't be too creative when you don't need to be.
- PROTECT. Keep the parasites out.
- TIMING. Look at the timing of when you want to expand your market.
Is it worth doing? Well, the business plan says it's a good idea. But looking back, it was a bad idea. Here's the story of Chris and Corey's friend, Sushee Perumal.
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:33):
Before this call, we were talking about one of the aspirations that you have, the super power you have is the ability to see a business and to deconstruct it in front of the founder's very eyes and build it up again about how to kind of eliminate some of the pratfalls or painful financing lessons that most founders and startup businesses have. So, yeah, let's talk a little bit about that.
Chris beall (00:54):
Sure. It sounds like fun.
Corey Frank (00:56):
So when you look at a traditional business, right? How many businesses have you helped over the years and just, "Hey Chris, can I buy you a beer? Can I grab 20 minutes? I'd like to run this idea by you." So imagine the nightmare scenarios you've saved people from. I know I count myself on that list from preventing me, saving myself from me, I guess, is what you do best. So what are some of these common challenges that guys like me when I want to start a SAS business, and I have dreams of getting the series A and raising my three, four, $5 million and setting forth on this path to prosperity. What am I not thinking of?
Chris beall (01:32):
Oh, yeah.
Corey Frank (01:33):
What do guys like you have being on the trenches and having that 1,000 yard stare. What do you do to prevent me from hurting myself?
Chris beall (01:40):
It's a great question. I don't know if I know the answer. I feel like I respond on the spot to different people's challenges, different business challenges. I don't know the answer to the first question, by the way, I suppose it's in the 100s because I like other people's businesses. I just do. I'm fascinated by them and I'm attracted to the courage and I want to talk to people have a slightly naive courage to plunge off into the unknown. Pretty sure that they've got something, but also pretty sure that they should probably talk to a few people before they just put it all together in detail and then wonder why it didn't work. And I do think one of the biggest errors that folks make is they business plan for the wrong purpose.
So they business plan for purpose in general of mapping out half that they're going to take and saying, "It'll be glorious. Here's how it will be glorious." And the amount of confirmation bias that goes into business planning, like stunning. And the other thing that they tend to do is take the intermediate products of the business plan, which are something like, "Oh, if we do A, B and C based on the size of the market, then we'll have growth that's of such and such a percent per year." And then they use that growth of such and such a percent a year as though that's the fact not the actions that are required to get it. And then tend to back into using canonical means and therefore we'll spend a certain percentage of it on marketing and a certain percentage of it on sales.
And we'll hit this mark here in two years because other people do and all that kind of stuff, right? It's all canonical. And one thing I think I mentioned on a previous episode is that businesses are more different from each other than people are from each other. Because businesses are not evolutionary endpoints. They didn't come from anywhere except out of the mind of somebody within the constraints of the society, in which they live. The laws, the mores, the available resources. So businesses can be endlessly inventive. I mean, look at Amazon, there's a business that's so bizarrely invented in its concept that to this day, I think if you took any sane business person back through the premise, except for Jeff Bezos, who is clearly insane in a very good way, you wouldn't be able to get from where it started to where it is today on any path you could have predicted or even wanted to go now.
Why is it that putting a bookstore on the internet would lead to the world's richest, man? Why? Well, whatever it is it had to do with the core belief that he had, which is something along the lines of. I have a business idea that has to do with a couple of things. And I'm guessing I'd never met him, but I'm guessing one of them is, we could exchange profits for market dominance and we could demonstrate market dominance in a market by sacrificing profits, but it has to be a market which price is important. And in order to make that, so it's got to be a commodity, well, books are a perfectly fine commodity. And new ones are born every day and they need to be promoted and they need to be sold. But at the margin, buying a book from one guy and buying it from the other or the same thing, you get the book in either case.
So now we're kind of down to price. As a bookseller online, especially, if price isn't your differentiator you're going to work really, really hard to find one and you're going to fail. So I said, "Well, how do you do that?" Let's see, I got to buy him for something. So I run a really cheap operation with wooden doors for desks and all this cheap stuff, right? Intelligently cheap, keep your overhead way low, keep the operating costs of delivery way low, looked for economizing and savings everywhere. And then, oh, last trick take no profit. And the stock market will reward me with more money than the profit I could have taken over any given period of time. That is the increase of value of the stock will recognize that I can do this over and over and over and grow. Right? It's that kind of inventiveness that I think is so interesting in business.
And I think sadly, a lot of people who have those kinds of ideas, don't pursue them in a clean way, because instead of asking themselves the right kind of question, which is, what must I never do in this business? If I believe what I believe, what must I never do? Right? If I truly believe what I believe is the why behind this business, what must I not do? Instead they back their way into something that they know damn well, they shouldn't do. And they do it because somebody says, you have to do it. Somebody says you have to raise money. Somebody says, you have to have an office. Somebody says, you have to have a VP of sales. Somebody says, you need a technical co-founder, whatever one of those things happens to be, right? Somebody says something. And instead of thinking it through from first principles, how do I know that? In fact, why even pay attention to that?
The question is, what do I need at the minimum to confirm my thesis, the reason, my why. To confirm it or disconfirm it with the smallest negative impact and the fewest people, especially people that I care about. And it comes down to, well, now you're in the business of doing an experiment. So now you're doing science and the opening of every business is passion. I want to do it, follow it immediately if you do it really well, with a tiny bit of math, is it worth doing if it works? That's the purpose of business planning, by the way. The purpose of a business plan is to answer this question. If it works, would it have been worth doing? It's actually a retrospective done in advance. It allows you to look at the future and say, "In the case where it all works great, would it have been worth doing for me, for the other stakeholders and for the world? Would it have been worth doing?"
And that's what a business plan tells you. The first sort of business plan, especially one that you're ever going to present to somebody to raise money. But since you're the first investor and your time is worth more than anybody's money, for sure your time is worth more than anybody else's money. Right? You got to ask yourself the question, am I going to invest the time? Well, you got to see the future. That not accurately. You must not see the future accurately. That's a really bad idea. You have to make a business plan that answers this one question. So if it all works out, will this have been worth doing? Then having done that, you throw that business plan away. Now that you've convinced yourself to make the investment or somebody else in case you really, really, truly believe you need somebody else's money, which in general, you don't, but maybe you do.
And then you ask yourself the question. What's the smallest thing that I can do in the shortest amount of time that's going to give me evidence to confirm or disconfirm my core thesis? And in general, your core thesis is somebody needs something that they don't have today, and I think I can provide it based on an insight or some other advantage that I have due to my background or my circumstance. If my circumstance or my background, doesn't give me advantage to provide something for somebody who has a problem that I can solve, I don't even know why I'm in business. So that's rule number two is, root in your own experience, not in somebody else's business book. Your experience is the core of your differentiator. That's what you're bringing to the party. You could be bringing your circumstance. Maybe you were born rich or something like that.
Some people say you're 6'8, and you weigh a lean 265 pounds. And you can put your elbows over the rim. Well, maybe you should invest in learning how to play basketball. You never know what that might pay off, right? Like can be a good one. Your circumstances may have not have been over your own creation. That'd be a version of being born rich, no matter how poor you are is if you happen to have a super skill, you're a mathematical prodigy, right? You're a sales genius. You're a psychopath who can talk people out of their money for reasons that they will never understand. That's a bad one, but it would be a gift that you could use to start a business. And many people have used that last one as a gift to start business.
Corey Frank (09:54):
True.
Chris beall (09:55):
Bernie Madoff may well been a guy who did that and the best of the ones that talked themselves into it. They believe they're doing good stuff, man. That's a really good disguise. So, [crosstalk 00:10:06] those are the two things though. And they're generally not done.
Corey Frank (10:09):
And instead what's done is take a heaping load of confirmation bias and discount. Both of those two rules, big time.
Chris beall (10:16):
Yeah. Big time. And then following a formula. And there was a modern version of this and Silicon Valley was super popular. I used to talk to lots of young people. Who'd come to me and say, "I want to do a startup." It's like, what does that even mean?
Corey Frank (10:30):
Yeah.
Chris beall (10:31):
Well, I want to do a startup. But why? Because startups are where it's at. Well, there's no such thing as a startup. That's a nonsense concept, right? It doesn't even mean anything. All businesses at some point start, that's not a unique characteristic of a business that it starts. They all start. That's like saying, instead of saying, I want to be president of the United States. You say, I want to have been born. Well great. Wonderful. We've really accomplished something here in terms of our understanding of what to do next. Right? So I want to do a startup. Well, okay. So in what? Well then they'll get usually to something that's in their core. I know the young man come to me of somebody close to me. And he had a passion about how the relatives of old people who were sick, got screwed in medical pricing, medical services pricing.
Corey Frank (11:24):
Okay.
Chris beall (11:25):
And that the family members couldn't figure out how things should be priced. And when you can't do price discovery, and you're a buyer on a short timeframe, you tend to get screwed. That's one of the great principles of life, right? If I got to buy now, it's like the seller who's moving. And I know somebody right now is moving from her house to Tucson. So she's got to get rid of her stuff by the closing date. It's got all the ducks in a contract, right?
Corey Frank (11:50):
That's right. Yep. Yep.
Chris Beall (11:51):
So she going to get the best for that white couch? No, somebody's going to get that white couch for 100 bucks. And I guarantee you that white couch is worth a lot more to someone, just not to anybody she's going to find in that amount of time, right? So being a buyers, is the same thing when you're under time pressure and you can't ice discovery efficiently, you get screwed.
Chris Beall (13:11):
That's the definition of, I was like the number one mechanism. That's why the economy also is some people are under pressure time pressure devise. Some are under time pressure to sell. In neither case, do they find the price, the correct price, the market, whatever the correct market price is. And there's a transaction and somebody wins and somebody loses, but that's okay because the person is screwed on price, wins on convenience or timing or whatever it is. Right? So it's kind of funny though, when you say, okay, so you want to do this startup. So this guy wants to do a startup. And I said, "Well, what do you think your first step is?" He says, "Well, I've got to find a technical co-founder." "Well, why is that?" "Well, because I don't know how to write code." "Okay. And how do you know this has something to do with writing code? Do you know enough about this to know that it's worth writing the code?"
"Well, I know that people in the circumstance gets screwed." Got it. We started with the passion, go write the business plan, that shows why this is a great idea in the future looking back if, it works. And then you'll have some sense of what it is, but no, your problem isn't finding a technical co-founder, that's not your problem. And your desire can't be this type of startup because all the cool kids have a startup. But you see a lot of that in business. And then you'll get folks who are at the opposite end of the spectrum. We were talking about our mutual friend, Sushee Perumal, right? And Sushee runs a company called MaxSold. And I don't think he'll mind us talking about him because the guy's just absolutely a dear.
Corey Frank (14:42):
He's the only one that listens to our podcast anyway.
Chris Beall (14:44):
That's right. He said he listened to every episode, at least once. He said he binged on us, Corey, he binged on us. Sushee, thank you so much. That's why the numbers went through the roof last week.
Corey Frank (14:54):
That's right. That's right.
Chris Beall (14:55):
Listening over and over. But he has a brilliant business, brilliant, brilliant business. And he went about it the right way. Step-by-step starting with, is it worth doing? And this is a guy who has tried various things, starting an airline. You can go to susheeperumal.com or wherever he out there and check it out. His story is unbelievable. It's told beautifully. He must have talked to somebody who told them how to tell him a good story, because a good idea. Sure it wasn't me. But he's kind about the step-by-step. Now he's taking a little bit of money right now. That is a very, very considered thing to do because he's figured out who needs it. They buy it all the time and they just got to figure out, okay, so how do I spread this out? How to escape it.
Corey Frank (15:39):
Wait, hang on. Did you say that a founder of a business actually has a business that's running and throwing off cash, and then he's looking for money? I thought Chris had happens the other way around. You actually have the money first.
Chris Beall (15:50):
Yeah. Different approach, different approach. It's a very, very much a bootstrapped approach. And the beauty was he had an insight and then he went out and validated, or I would have been not happy, but content, I suppose, or accepting of a hard disk confirmation. It says, this is a bad idea. Business plan says, it's a good idea in retrospect that from the future, looking back on it, if you were to make it great, but the facts of going out and exploring the needs, it's a bad idea. But the fact said it was a good idea. In fact, right here in little port towns in Washington, where I live, we were walking along one day, about seven months ago and saw somebody with an apron with his company's name on it. And that apron said, MaxSold and she was standing in a driveway. And I went over and asked her, "What is this?"
We're out in one of the outposts of the world. This is the Quinn for peninsula. If you go that way, 300 yards, you are swimming to Canada. The picture behind me is Seattle. I'm a little ways away from that. And I asked her, "What do you think about this thing that you're doing? Whatever it is." And she said, "I do estate sales for a living. I'll never do another one. This is the only thing that I will ever bring to my customers." She didn't know that I knew Sushee. I just asked her a question. Clearly he's found, he struck a nerve out there. And we'll need to get rid of their stuff. And I don't know if he came up with it and, he acted surprised when I said it today. I say to people, "Okay, Sushee's business, MaxSold. What does it do?"
It sells everything from the sponge under the sink to the Ferrari in the driveway and gives you the money. I mean, that's pretty good, right? From the sponge under the sink to the Ferrari in the driveway, we sell it and we give you the money.
Corey Frank (17:33):
We'll get him on as a guest.
Chris Beall (17:34):
Yeah. We'll get him on. He really is great. He's great. He can't even fly to the US right now, even though he has an airplane and all that good stuff from the airline he started, which didn't work out, but learned a lesson or two, and it's on his site. But my point is going through the motions of starting a business is not starting a business. And going through the motions of starting a company, a VC funded company is almost surely not starting a business. It may be starting a company, which as we've talked about before is an R&D.Lab for a future acquirer. But dominance plays don't come out of their, dominance plays they come out of figuring out a real need, figuring out something to do about that, that can fit within everybody's cost parameters now, and for a long time to come. So there's profit.
And then figuring out how to scale it. Now today Sushi and I were talking about scaling and that's the flip side is you can create demand, but what if you have to service it locally, can you create enough local service centers, capability, or whatever you want to call it in order to scale? Well, that becomes a fundamental business problem. And you need to then understand finance at another level because each one of those is a unit of being finance. How are you going to finance it? You have to think that stuff through. This is where talking to people who built similar shaped businesses is worthwhile.
If you're going to be a four-legged animal, talk to the other four-legged animals, don't talk to the kangaroos. Don't talk to the monkeys that hang from the trees, talk to the other four-legged animals and say, "How did you solve this particular problem? And there's no business books that'll tell you that stuff because there's too much variety. In this case, I happen to have some experience from the past around 2003 and making that kind of financing and operational equation work in the real world. And so I could share that with them, not as some mentor or whatever, but as a guy who put one of his, another four-legged animal, right? Running ConnectAndSell is not like that. It doesn't resemble it at all. It's just completely different animal.
Corey Frank (19:36):
So when you look at, with that Chris, when you look at all the businesses that you've been a part of, either as an investor, a board member, an executive or CEO, and you see that when any of those businesses that maybe didn't do as well as you'd like, was it personnel? Was it operational? Was it financial? Was it plumbing? What do you see when you get above the trees and you look at maybe the businesses that you've been a part of, or again, affiliated with or invested in, what's the residue that maybe you've learned, certainly going to be different for everybody, but from what makes Chris Beall Chris Beall today, right? The Market Dominance guru here is the collective residue of experiences that enables you to now take a left turn when it previously took a right turn and to learn why it's important to take the right turn. What would you say is the collective aggregate of those experiences? What would you say to us?
Chris Beall (20:36):
Number one, I'll go chronologically because it's easy to do for me. Because I can go back to when I was pretty young, because I started, starting businesses and one sort of another one, I was probably 11. First one was super successful. People needed it. They needed to have work done around their house and in their corral and stuff like that. And a couple of hardworking kids with some tools and razorblades and whatever could do anything and priced it right, sold it right, knocked door to door. As my first door to door sales job was selling our own stuff and it was super successful actually. It was a very successful business.
Key to success actually in that one, low overhead. I lived at my parents house and [inaudible 00:21:12]. So I had the energy from the food and time on my hands and I could go make a business. By the way, if you can ever arrange to have your overhead covered at 100%, you should always immediately go start a business. It's always better than having a job. Always. I would recommend this to any kid who's thinking about college. Who's not a big fan of college. There's a bunch of them.
Corey Frank (21:34):
Sure.
Chris Beall (21:35):
So tell your parents, instead of me costing you 100 grand a year, how about you put me up at home and I'll go start a business and it's going to be a grinded out business of some kind, because that's how you do things. Go, [Walmart 00:21:47] , Cuban. Yeah.
Corey Frank (21:49):
If you get your GNA covered, that's a big piece of that.
Chris Beall (21:52):
You're good. You're good. And that's the number one thing to do actually in any business. Number one, not is so what do you believe when you're not believing? Right? I mean a business or life is like a racehorse. It eats while you sleep. How much does it eat while you're sleeping? So that was one that worked really well. It eventually ended because my business partner took up other interests. We aged out of it, I would call it. And went and did other things. And then on another business that went, a software business, I was in I'll come forward, quite a ways that went bad. It was very sad. It was the first Unix-based ERP company. So think in 1983, '84, imagine on Unix, which nobody built commercial software on at the time, the vision was Unix and it's whatever comes after it turned out to be Linux, same damn thing really. Will dominate commercial software because it lowers the effective cost of software development by letting a developer spread their output over many kinds of computers.
And at the time there were many kinds of computers. So one developer suddenly becomes 40 and that arbitrage was too irresistible. So instead of thinking up some brand new ERP system, we took one that was fairly popular at the time and just went ahead and looked at it and said, "Well, at least this thing's useful. Let's just build this, but in Unix land." And we did it and it was superb. I mean, it was built in a beautiful way, made every release on, every Monday morning, we would release software. Always worked pretty much bug free, got customers like Honeywell and all sorts of wonderful brands, right? Motorola, folks like that. [Shewish 00:23:32] Chemical out of salt Lake city was a big customer of ours, found a niche in continuous flow manufacturing because some of the things we did in our underlying mathematical model could handle units other than one, two, three. It could actually count to 0.5 or 0.3726, right?
Corey Frank (23:49):
Which lesson was target the niche?
Chris Beall (23:52):
No, that was. The good lesson was, don't be too creative when you don't need to be. You don't need you stand at your genius on this damn thing. Right? So the genius was in seeing that this could be a differentiator that's really fundamental with regard to being able to develop what the market needed. And then the chase, which was smart was down this continuous flow manufacturing route, but the company blew it and we blew it because the venture money that was in, which was some of the smartest venture money in the world, firm is still around. I won't name them because I'm a nice guy, but they're big and they're still around. And I had friends have gone to work there as VCs, since they got impatient and wanted to make it go faster and be liquid. And that was only three years into it.
So what was wrong with that? Well, it wasn't that kind of product. So while we had product market fit, we didn't have investor and company product type fit, an ERP product. You want to treat it like SAP did. As an infinitely long road, you're going to go down and you're just going to become more and more dominant as you solve more and more problems in the world because nobody else can get to your stage of understanding of those problems and having the code, the integration of services on the customers that allow you to be able to go solve the next problem that is go vertical to vertical. And so they got impatient and they decided to shrink wrap the software and sell it as a standard package, fast, fast, fast, and nobody wanted it. So they actually created it. And the investor impatience created per product market non fit, where there was already product market fit.
Corey Frank (25:32):
So that disconnect between the investor and the founder in that disconnect on the thesis and the breakup strategy is what should have been ameliorated or talked about at the beginning? So arguably that wasn't the type of investment that was a snug fit in their portfolio, but they did it anyway.
Chris Beall (25:52):
They did it anyway. And they expressed their dissatisfaction by bringing in professional management. And that's a standard failure mode for all these businesses because professional management is the rough equivalent in many VC situations, ventured back situations of a salvage job. So a kind of a hatchet job, right? You come in and you trim costs and you arrange for the thing to be sold. It never got sold except the software got sold to a big company and became the core of a series of very exotic, automated distribution systems that were kind of second to none, a 20 year ahead of their time kind of things. But the business as a result went away. And there you go. I mean, it was ahead of SAP, who knows? You never know how these are going to play out. I mean, but it's a game that, the game needs to be played out over 90 minutes, turning it into 90-second game is a bad idea.
Corey Frank (26:45):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (26:45):
That's just all there is to it. And then I've seen that another standard failure mode is overreach. So when times are good, these things can fail because somebody thinks that, one of the businesses I was involved with, we had an opportunity to sell the business for a lot of money, billions and billions, really a lot of money on a very lucky set of circumstances where a company that didn't have that much money into it. It was perfectly positioned at a particular time in the market to sell to a public company in an all stock deal with no lockup. And it was a one-week-long plan to a close and the whole bit, but that ran counter to the notion of the company's liquidity path, which was to an IPO. So when 2000 came along and the beginning of the tech crash happened, the IPO was no longer viable and the company could neither be sold appropriately nor could it go IPO.
And so it got trapped. It's just, what are those two, the two not quite mythical water feature Scylla and Charybdis, right? You get caught between those two. And it's if you turn this way, it's bad. If you turned this way, it's bad. And so some billions of dollars of potential upside were lost and the company ended up selling for, I believe in 2005 for 19 million, with 11 million in cash, still in the back. So that's a mistake of just an overreach. It was just a moment where there was so much boldness and certainty that liquidity was ours that instead of taking the money, and this is really common with us, right?
[Rich Plumage 00:28:16] told me years ago, am I a corporate lawyer, one of those companies many, many years ago, he told me on a round of golf once and I'm afraid. I said, "Rich, it's clear. You're a wonderful human being. And you're a great professional, but it's clear you haven't spent all your time on the golf course." And he said, "Well, maybe not." I said, "Well, what have you learned all these years? 40 something years of doing this stuff, helping companies with finances?" And he thought for about four holes and then stopped me and said, "One thing, take the money."
Most sales professionals are familiar with the journey of a cold call. It starts with fear. From fear we move to trust. From trust we move to curiosity. From curiosity we move to commitment, and from commitment to action. In this episode, Corey and Chris remind us that there is only one discovery call or meeting. And a true discovery call or meeting doesn't have a destination in mind. Welcome to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "Sales Professionals - stop worrying about the deal."
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Most sales professionals are familiar with the journey of a cold call. It starts with fear. From fear, we move to trust, from trust to curiosity, from curiosity to commitment, from commitment to action. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Corey and Chris remind us that there is only only discovery meeting, and a true discovery call or meeting doesn't have a destination in mind.
Welcome to this episode of Market Dominance Guys: Sales Professionals, Stop Worrying About The Deal.
Chris Beall (01:04):
I did a debate the other day.
Corey Frank (01:06):
Yes, at University of Texas, correct?
Chris Beall (01:09):
Yeah, and the subject was fascinating. We spoke about two different views of sales development. As you and I have been speaking, we've been speaking about the sales development function, that first conversation, the follow-up conversation, and ultimately the discovery meeting as being the essence of dominating markets. Because if you do that right, you can do the math, so to speak, and you can dominate a market.
Scott [Gillum 00:01:39] was taking the other side of the debate because in his view, it's simply too expensive to talk to people. So it's better to use low-cost mechanisms, such as digital, media, search, advertising, that kind of stuff, and digital content, social media perhaps, in order to get people to come to you and then be the last company to have the first conversation. And my view is you want to be the first company to have the first conversation. So a very divergent view, but the difference in view is actually based on a different understanding of the cost of a conversation.
It's fascinating to reflect, for me anyway, on this debate, two rational people taking 180-degree opposite views of what you should do. One based on optimizing cost, the other based on optimizing market dominance, but each one coming from a different perspective with regard to the cost of having a conversation.
So Scott's view was, well, a conversation is... He opened with quoting Chad Burmeister, who by the way I had just been with the day before talking about the same subject, and saying it takes 30 or 40 dials to get a conversation. That's too much to waste early because you'll be trying and you won't get ahold of the person, and then they won't be ready to buy or they're the wrong person, the wrong company, whatever. So wait until they show up and you know they're ready to buy, then have your first conversation because it's so expensive.
So it's fascinating to me that the cost of having a conversation, both actual and perceived, can cause a 180-degree shift in the idea of how you should go to market or what's practical with regard to go to market. Yet the difference at the end is, if you wait to have the conversation, your only way to dominate a market is by having superior advertising, which is a hard position to maintain.
Corey Frank (03:35):
Sure. If I have superior digital means, superior digital fire power, superior digital messaging, efficiency, at least that's the top of the funnel in order to dominate a market. That view is interesting. It's very pragmatic, right? It makes sense.
Chris Beall (03:54):
Well, it sounds pragmatic. It has an issue in that the entire fight is out on the table. When you're choosing to get into a fight for a market with competitors known and unknown, it's very hard to do it in a way that's anything but transparent. Your search terms are all transparent. And by the way, at any given moment, Google is busy selling your perfect competitor the exact search terms that will put you out of business. Their model is to go and find your perfect competitor and once a year, each one of you gets a shot at the good words, so to speak. That's going on and your advertising is out in the open, and your website, and your LinkedIn work, and your Facebook. Whatever it is, is out in the open.
Whereas when you're having a conversation one-on-one with somebody, not only can it engender trust in a way that digital can't, but it's private. Any information that you receive from that conversation is proprietary. And it's hard to imagine sustainably winning a fight by having no information advantage whatsoever.
Corey Frank (05:01):
Let's talk about that for a moment. I had a conversation with Andy Paul yesterday. Andy, if you're listening, I'm about to break apart your messaging and about to butcher it. But from Andy's conversation that I had with him, we were talking about the biz dev and then the sales role, and I believe one of his paramounts is that the biz dev, if I get a person, if I get a lead on the biz dev call and I've created some trust, that trust does not transfer to the sales person. So if I set a discovery call as a biz dev for you as my sales rep, Chris, and I've established some trust, I've been able to create a couple hundred thousand bits of information to create to turn that fear into trust and to be able to expand that trust into a discovery call with you, you as the sales person has to start all over again. You don't start from step two. You really start less than that.
So we're not talking about optimizing cost. We're trying to optimize some trust when we have another cook in the kitchen as well, are we not?
Chris Beall (06:01):
Yeah, I think Andy's exactly right. If you do a hand-off from one person to another and do it with the simple assumption that the amount of trust that was needed in order to get to curiosity, remember the journey. And we'll just go back over the journey for the cold call and ultimately for the follow-up call, too, the unscheduled follow-up call. The original journey in the cold call is from fear to trust, trust to curiosity, curiosity to commitment, and commitment to action.
The action is actually showing up at the discovery meeting, and the person you show up to the discovery meeting with could either be the person who you set the meeting with; that is, the sales person is doing their own biz dev function and they are setting their own meetings. And in that case, you already have built that little bit of trust. You probably would be wise not to rely on it being there. Why squander it? But to go through a process of re-meeting the person a little bit, and that's why, as I think we discussed in one of these episodes, I love to start with the question, "Where are you on the surface of our blue whirling planet?" just to have that sense of us being together.
There is a need in every conversation to re-initiate the relationship a little bit and re-establish the trust. But you have an advantage in a 15-minute meeting that you don't have in a cold call, and the advantage is the person has decided to come to you and confirmation bias tends to kick in. If I decide to come and meet with you, I'm doing it of my own volition. So my interpretation of the meeting, especially the early part of the meeting, is going to be conditioned on my decision to come and meet with you. That is, I will be looking for confirmation that this is a good thing for me to do with my time because I'm doing it with my time. I value my time. I believe that I am a good custodian of my time. I have voluntarily chosen to come and meet with you, and therefore, I'm going to be more likely than not to interpret that investment as a good investment and therefore you as a person worth meeting with, which is very, very different from a cold call.
So yes, you can blow it by acting like a sales person. You can get into interrogation mode. I was told to ask questions. Let's just start right in with the questions. Time's a-wasting.
And I know that Andy Paul, it's funny that he's a master of time and Zero-Time Selling was his first book and one of the most brilliant sales books ever done, and Andy and I have talked at great length about it. He's not advocating hurrying up in the conversation though. He's advocating getting to where you need to go or deciding not to go there in the minimum amount of calendar time and in the minimum amount of elapsed time or rep time actually. So his unit that he cares about most is the sales rep hour. And the question is, what are you getting done per hour of your time? I think that's quite brilliant.
What happens in a discovery conversation needs to be as efficient as can be while taking into account that you're establishing or re-establishing a relationship with somebody, and that needs to happen because otherwise you may run the risk... and you will run some risk, but you may run the actual risk that this person's going to say, "Hey, I came to this meeting in good faith and you're abusing my trust."
So the sales person who abuses that trust can lose it, but they still start with some. And they start with some for a funny reason. It's not a transfer of the trust from, say, the business development person who called them to the sales rep who's holding the discovery meeting. It's a transfer of trust back to the prospect who trusts themselves enough to invest their time wisely and come to the meeting and, therefore, the meeting is going to be interpreted at first flush, at the beginning, in a positive light.
Chris Beall (11:00):
You can blow it for sure. Sales people blow it every day. I have neighbors who listen to me listening to some of our sales reps' calls. I use [Chorus 00:11:09] in order to listen to those calls, and I do it often while trotting on the trails here in Reno because I can get two things done. I know it's supposed to be impossible to multitask, but you actually can walk and listen at the same time or trot and listen at the same time. And I am living proof of it. I do it pretty much every day.
Corey Frank (11:28):
Just as long as you have no gum in your mouth.
Chris Beall (11:31):
Yes, as long as you have no gum. And breathing turns out to be relatively automatic, especially when you're going up these big hills here. My neighbors believe I own a dog, and the dog's name is... Well, the polite version of the dog's name is shut the heck up. That's actually not the dog they think I have. That would be [crosstalk 00:11:51] brother or sister.
Corey Frank (11:51):
Sure.
Chris Beall (11:51):
What I'm saying is if you keep talking at this point... I'm just shouting at the air because I have no more sense than to do that, and then I'll try to take a note by sending myself a text message by talking to my phone. But the point is, you can abuse somebody's trust by going on and on about something that you care about instead of letting them talk and listening. It's still very different from interrogating them. If you're curious about what their situation is and you're willing to learn what their situation is, before you map their situation onto the amazing coincidence that your product is the perfect fit for them, if you can just listen, get them talking about something that they care about and listen, then you are doing the right thing with their trust.
And that trust can lead, again, to curiosity, but in this case it's your curiosity. You're being curious about their situation as a sales person. And from there, you can have mutual curiosity. They could become curious about how you might be able to help them, and from there you could have exploration, and exploration tends to be the next step that you're looking for... exploration or stopping the exploration, deciding there isn't any reason to. We call that disqualification, which is I think an unfortunate term. It's nothing more than just deciding not to go on another date.
Corey Frank (13:14):
The shut the heck up reaction is from the sales rep abusing that trust that was first created by that biz dev in that conversation, the overwhelming confirmation bias that that sales rep has that you are a fit. You seem a mere QED, you must be a fit for my product, and I am going to continue to try to talk about the things that I'm interested in without curiosity at all, with potentially the exception of my only curiosity will be how you're going to answer the questions that I need to have you answer... time, need, budget, fit, bant, what have you... in order to fit into my funnel.
Is it a lack of empathy? Is it a lack of genuine curiosity? Is it a lack of awareness that the sales rep shouldn't be selling the product in that discovery meeting? And as you've always said, there's a product, irrespective of the product that you're selling, that is innately built into that discovery meeting, and that is what should be sold. That's the value that should be distributed to the prospect on that phone.
Chris Beall (14:25):
Exactly. I mean, it's a whole bunch of things that work together to get this standard behavior. For one thing, we make our reps believe that making quota is everything, and then we reason backwards and say therefore selling to this particular prospect is a perfect outcome. And in a market dominance sense, that tends not to be true. But even in a sales sense, it tends not to be true.
We wouldn't call it discovery if it only had one outcome. We wouldn't go on a voyage of discovery and say, "And oh, by the way, here's what we're going to find, just to let you all know." Right? We're going into these little wooden boats and we're going to sail across this big ocean and, oh, by the way, what we're going to find is a mall with a Starbucks and so forth and so on. And it's going to be shaped like this and it's going to look like this. We're going to be able to buy this. That's not a voyage of discovery.
Discovery has to do with the unknown. And yet we tell reps, "No, no. You've got to know because if you don't know what the answer is, you won't get to the answer. And if you don't get to the answer, you won't get the sale. You don't get the sale, you don't get the quota. You don't get the quota, you don't get the commission. So let's just focus on that."
And I think that arises from two sources. One is it's the tradition of what I call sales at the crossroads, one and done. Once we sell to you, we're strangers and we will go our separate ways. It's transactional, I believe is what that kind of selling is rightly called. But the other is when we only have a few opportunities, when our flow rate of conversations and our flow rate of meetings is low, then we're desperate to make the most out of each one.
So if we have enough conversations, it's very easy to take the attitude, at least it's practical to take the attitude, that says let's just have a good conversation. Let's explore this one question, which is does it make sense to move forward together? In order to explore that, as a sales person, I need to tell you what it is that I think might make a difference, and you need to tell me what resonates with you, if anything. And it's back to something that's economic, something that's emotional, something that's strategic. If nothing resonates, well, there's no reason to explore it. If something resonates, let's take that element and explore it further in the conversation.
So if the desire is to have a good conversation that has the right result... the right result being either moving forward or not depending on the degree of fit, timing, and maybe other factors that are out there... then it's a simple job to hold a discovery meeting. But it's hard. It's a hard thing to execute on an intermediate step.
It's like if you're a football player... it's NFL season now here in the US, the American football guys are out... and I'm trying to become a better wide receiver, and I've got to learn to run a particular pattern, whatever this pattern is. I'm learning to run this [inaudible 00:17:25], and there's a cut in it. I actually need to focus on making the cut before I focus on catching the ball.
If I just think about catching the ball the whole time, well, for one thing, my back is to the quarterback for part of the time and catching the ball isn't going to work during that period. And I've got to make the cut correctly at the right time in order to get to the right place to catch the ball. So focus on making the cut. Focus on having a good run with the right speed, planting the correct foot, and doing the right stuff with my upper body in order to support the cut and also to see if the cornerback is covering me or whoever's on me. And if I focus on that, my chances of being open to catch the ball go way up. If I'm just focusing on catching the ball, I'm probably not going to make a very good cut.
What I'm doing in the discovery call is more like getting to the point where we can be open to consider a transaction. So how do I do that? Well, I need to focus on the conversation itself, and that's what's hard to do because it's not the end goal. I've often heard managers say, "I don't care how you do it, just get the deal." And "I don't care how you do it" is like saying our approach here is to hire people and fire people until we find one that can do it.
Corey Frank (18:42):
Well, that's right. Andy and I had a conversation about that yesterday, Chris, it's funny, about quotas, and his premise, which I really like, is that quotas are not good. When the measure becomes the target, Andy says, the measure is no longer valid. You miss out on the humanistic element of the problems you're trying to solve for your prospects it seems.
And I really like this idea, I think we should tackle it next call, about discovery. Discovery is not a destination. Discovery is a state of mind with the unknown. It's not an iterative process where I already know the destination with my heavy confirmation bias as a sales person. Certainly, I've been guilty of that, is that, listen, because you fit my persona of X... You're persona number three, Chris. You're a CEO of a SaaS tech company over X million dollars with Y amount of margin. Therefore, you must fit the product that I am trying to sell and not having any budget, you have to be a fit. So my discovery is already tarnished or biased in its performance. It's kabuki at that point because I already know where I'm going to try to take you, and as the prospect, you probably already are feeling a little bit like this is a hostage situation as we're going down our questioning funnel.
But it's not genuine from the sales perspective, correct? Because it's not a true discovery of let's find out if it makes any sense to explore this together because I already have my finger on the scale.
Chris Beall (20:23):
I think that's exactly right. The hardest part about sales... And I'm speaking with these students at University of Texas, Dallas... Dr. Dover's brilliant program down there. Dr. Howard Dover runs this amazing advanced sales program down at UTD. I had a group of students that were around me and one of them asked me, "Well, what should I do or what can we do that would make a difference in our sales careers?"
And I said stop caring about the deal. Just stop caring about the deal. Just be willing to execute the process of exploring with another human being what might be possible, knowing that you only have one set of things you can provide. You're not a consultant there to have a conversation with them about everything, which is why you allocate a specific amount of time for the discovery meeting. You allocate that time in order to clip the investment. And within that investment period, that 15 minutes or 30 minutes, whatever it is that you set on the calendar, you want to have it go as well as it can with regard to discovering the truth about the potential fit between that person's situation and their challenges and what it is that you offer, especially your most plain vanilla, this is down the middle offer, the thing that's really in the bag, so to speak.
If there's a great fit, or even might be a great fit, to the degree that it's worth exploring further, then you have the next step. That's what sales really is, is navigating a series of next steps that are very concrete and doing it with an investment known in advance, time investment. This is where Andy Paul's entire approach is so spot on. You're going to have one discovery meeting, and in that discovery meeting, you're going to determine does it make sense to move forward to the next step? And the next step is not another discovery meeting. It's something different.
In our world at ConnectAndSell, the next step is what we call an intensive test drive. It's an actual experience of our product in production with a sales team. And that is the only next step that is prescribed in our sales process coming out of a discovery meeting. There is not a next step that says let's meet again. The error that many sales people make is believing that-
Corey Frank (22:42):
That's right.
Chris Beall (22:42):
... continued time investment is progress.
Corey Frank (22:45):
That's right.
Chris Beall (22:45):
It's generally waste.
Corey Frank (22:46):
Well, that's great. Well, we're going to end it there for today's session, Chris. I think we have four more topics just from the last five minutes of your little riff there, one of which is I need to lasso Andy Paul and be the bystander, the fly on the wall, and let you two guys duke it out on the definition of trust, I think.
So I think the discovery call as a destination is a misleading term from the prospect's perspective it sounds like. So if we're going to call it a discovery call, then we have to be authentic and genuine and really mean what we say about a discovery call versus having the destination in our mind and we're going to do everything we can to get them there when it's inauthentic to say let's just see how it's going when I already know where I'm taking them. So that's incredibly valuable.
With that, Chris, until next time?
Chris Beall (23:42):
All right, Corey. This was a good session for the first one in my 66th year. Hopefully, I can stand up to the pressure going forward.
This is the continuation of the conversation with Donny Crawford about sales follow up, overcoming rejection, and likening sales to Google search results. Thank people for the conversation no matter how it went. This helps keep your emotions in check and allows you to move forward to the next call, even if you were rejected in the previous one. Get some very applicable and practical techniques in this episode of Market Dominance Guys - The Power of the Anti Curse to Overcome Rejection.
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If you missed the first half, you can catch it here >
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This is the full transcript to this episode:
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey continue their conversation with Donnie Crawford talking about sales team follow up and why they don't do it and what you can do to change that bad habit. The first thing they talked about were the three reasons reps don't follow up. We pick up in part of that conversation so it makes sense for the rest of it. And we talk about search and how search and sales are so closely related. Sales and your ability to solve a prospect's problems are no different than Google giving you the right results for what you're looking for. You just have to be able to sift through the junk and know that there's more than the story that's being presented to you.
Chris Beall (01:13):
If you were advising somebody else and you were just looking at the business impact, how would you advise them? Oh, I'd have them call them. Why? Well, because something good might happen. That's part of the why. But the rest of the why is, guess what? This is somebody that we know something about that's incredibly valuable. This is somebody who answers their phone. And the cohort of folks who answer their phone, if we had known in advance, they answer the phone without having to call them, we would have just called that list.
Donnie Crawford (01:44):
Yeah, just that list. Exactly.
Chris Beall (01:48):
But now we know that list. They coughed up that information to us, answering the phone. And we don't know how often they answer the phone, but we know they answered it once, which is a lot more than zero times. So we have... Psychology tells us, I've been rejected. I don't want to talk to somebody who rejected me. The fact is they made an objection. They didn't care to talk with you. They didn't have time or for whatever reason. And they objected strongly enough that they hung up on you.
Donnie Crawford (02:20):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (02:21):
And so if you can take that objection and say, "You know, that's fantastic." And this is the key to the psychology. When somebody hangs up on you, non-sarcastically, you need to say to yourself, fantastic. This is somebody that I know answers the call.
I'm going to talk to them again. And I'm going to talk to them about a week from now and see how it goes. That's open-minded. And then you put in the teleprompter, that thing I just said, which is, "When we spoke on this date, you didn't have time for a conversation." All the other ones compared to that one psychologically are super easy.
Donnie Crawford (02:58):
Totally.
Chris Beall (02:59):
Because you had a further conversation. However, there's another psychology element. And this comes back to don't know how and don't know why. Which is when somebody says something to you that is any other objection, that is not indicating to you definitely that they're intrinsically disqualified, you should talk to them next quarter.
Donnie Crawford (03:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (03:23):
Because there's only four possibilities in a sales conversation. Yes, no, not me, not now. And we lump everything about not knowing that some prospect is disqualified into not now.
Why? Because until we talk to them, we don't really know anything about them. So we can't talk to them in the past. We must therefore talk to them in the future. And then that's the definition of not now. How far in the future? One quarter. Why? Because the basic unit of time for considering any new category of offering, not your offering, but any new category of offering, is about one quarter.
Donnie Crawford (04:03):
It's happening quarterly. Right?
Chris Beall (04:05):
Yeah. If you're going to buy something, you're going to consider it within a quarter. So put it out one quarter. Don't think, put it out there. And that's another thing is don't think. And then write a teleprompter that says, "When we spoke on this date, you said whatever and I'm curious about whatever."
Donnie Crawford (04:26):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (04:27):
And that's it.
Donnie Crawford (04:28):
That's it.
Chris Beall (04:30):
And then you let the conversation flow. So a big part of the psychology is you don't want to do what you don't know how to do. And if you don't really know how to do it, you really don't want to do it. Especially if your emotions are involved in a negative way. And so you need a ledge, as Jet Blunt calls it, an emotional ledge to clean to when the objection comes, that feels like rejection. The worst one is the hang up.
So your ledge is a word or two that you say to yourself or say out loud. Don't say to them, they're gone. But you say it out loud, listen to yourself say it and set the follow-up. So what I say is "fantastic." Just exactly like that.
Donnie Crawford (05:17):
That person answers the phone.
Chris Beall (05:18):
That person answered the phone, I'm going to talk to them again next week.
Donnie Crawford (05:24):
Yep.
Chris Beall (05:24):
That's your ledge. And you need that ledge the same way that you need something to say to yourself. Say you're weightlifting and you know you're to the last rep that you can do before failure. You need to encourage yourself in that.
Donnie Crawford (05:39):
Absolutely.
Chris Beall (05:40):
It doesn't happen by itself. That weight doesn't jump up off your chest or wherever you're trying to get it all by itself. This is the one that you're going to have to push until then. It's like "Eh, no biggie." Right? And then when you're... This is why we have spotters. So when we lift, because you might dropped.
Donnie Crawford (06:00):
That's our managers, making sure we keep doing it.
Chris Beall (06:02):
Exactly. Managers spot us when we drop the weight on their chest and somebody needs to help come get it off.
Donnie Crawford (06:09):
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Beall (06:10):
But in general, we should be able to talk for ourselves and get that weight up one more time. And we need self-talk and the self-talk needs to be completely routine, setting the right tone of voice, very positive. And by the way, it has to specify why it's positive. Because when we're talking to ourselves, it's just like we're talking to a prospect. If we don't say why, they don't believe us. So if we don't say why to ourselves, we don't believe ourselves. Fantastic. Here's somebody that answers their phone. I'm going to talk them again next week.
Donnie Crawford (06:10):
I love it.
Chris Beall (06:49):
You're done. So that's kind of it.
Now why do people believe that their follow-ups can be done manually more effectively than ConnectAndSell? They believe it for two reasons. One is they feel like they need to prep for the follow-up. What was the last conversation about? What do I need to think about before I talk to this person? They have to ready themselves. And there's some truth to that, but you're going to make a trade-off. And that is, say it took 22 dials on average to get somebody on your list on the phone. Now you've got somebody who answers the phone.
So your "answers the phone" list is now down to busier. Right? So they don't always answer the phone. You don't know. So say your new dial to connect for that list, it takes 12 dials. So now here's the trade-off. If it takes 12 dials, still can navigate to failure, 11 times. Your mood is going to be pretty poor by the time you finally get somebody, it's still going to be a surprise because you don't expect to talk to them. So now you're going to have a different problem, which is your preparation didn't prepare you for anything, but leaving a voicemail. And leaving a voicemail, it's a one-shot thing. You can't leave voicemails over and over and over for somebody just because you had one conversation with them a quarter ago.
Donnie Crawford (08:07):
Right.
Chris Beall (08:08):
We didn't earn that many voicemails. So you have another psychology problem on a performance problem ahead of you if you decide to manually call. You won't be ready for the live conversation when it happens. And that's a serious problem.
So what to do about that? Well, to get the other side of the bat, which is if I could talk to somebody on my follow-up list, and now it's going to take me two minutes instead of four minutes. So that's kind of nice. I get a little reward, it's faster. And I know what to say, it's right there in my teleprompter. All I have to manage is my attitude, my mood. But I always have to manage my attitude, in both cases.
So instead of peaking for the big conversation, that doesn't happen, the big conversation that doesn't happen, the big conversation that doesn't happen. I don't have peak at all. I can just relax and know that my teleprompters can tell me what to say. I'm going to say it.
Donnie Crawford (09:02):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (09:03):
And that's... Yeah. So it's a trade off. And that trade off, it's got to be explicitly made by the rep. So then now I know why I shouldn't do it manually because I still haven't on in 12 chance, or one in eight chance or whatever, and I'm not going to be as good. And by the way, it's going to cost me half an hour. Half an hour is a lot more than two minutes. So what could I have done with those 28 minutes? Well, I could have talked to four more people-
Donnie Crawford (09:28):
Talk to more people. Exactly.
Chris Beall (09:29):
I could have talked to four more people. Given that sales is search, have to talk to people. So if I talked to more people per day, that's good. My follow-up list let's me talk to more people per day, which lets me search more of the space for someone who has or might have the problem that my company offers a solution for.
Chris Beall (10:47):
So it kind of all comes down to the psychology of the here versus the future. I'll call it the ant and the grasshopper. Salespeople tend to be grasshoppers. They don't do anything for the winter. They just eat right now and hope for the best. They kind of hope winter is not coming. So that's a problem for management. How does your compensation help them? How does you're talking to them help them? How do you show them data and evidence that helps them? And how you help them hold themselves accountable for doing what they know needs to be done? You'd be on that rowing machine right now, Donnie. If you and I had a relationship where you said, "Chris, I want to make sure that I hit this rowing machine every day. Can you help me?" And I'd ask you every day, "Hey, Donnie got on the rowing machine yet?" One or two answers. "I haven't, but I'm jumping on-"
Donnie Crawford (11:37):
Yes or no. If no, get on it.
Chris Beall (11:41):
Yeah, Donnie. We can still hold this conference call when you're on the rowing.
Donnie Crawford (11:47):
Just get on there.
Chris Beall (11:48):
Get on it. I don't think you're going to transmit any viruses or anything.
Donnie Crawford (11:50):
Oh, shoot.
Chris Beall (11:52):
So accountability is always assisted by other accountability. And we need to manage to that because we know this stuff is hard for these three reasons.
Donnie Crawford (12:02):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:02):
I don't know the how, they don't get the impact, and the psychology works against them. And then there's one more thing, which is, everybody loves a cherry on top. Everybody loves the extra, the freebie, but wait, there's more. And here's the more for follow-ups, when you talk to somebody, you can actually send them an email with the logo. You can actually reach out to them on social and they might accept your invitation. As long as you do it correctly, which is you thank them for the conversation. No matter how the conversation went, they gave you a gift and you must acknowledge that gift and do nothing else.
Donnie Crawford (12:42):
Right?
Chris Beall (12:42):
So if you acknowledge the gift and sell to them, you're actually violating a social contract and you must not do it. But if you acknowledge the gift and simply thank them and then offer them a gift, maybe a piece of fairly neutral information that's of value that you know about, then you're approximately balanced.
So with regard to social transactions, social exchange theory. So you follow up with an email instead of it being ignored as cold spam, it's an email from someone that just spoke with. And all that email has to say is thanks.
Donnie Crawford (13:21):
Yep.
Chris Beall (13:22):
So that's it.
Donnie Crawford (13:22):
That's it.
Chris Beall (13:25):
Now, what do the numbers say? The numbers say that follow-ups outperform cold calls by a factor of something on the order of three. They're easier to reach and they convert to meetings more readily because you have better conversations. And because your timing is likely to be better because you can't move into the past, only the future and all of their purchasing is going to happen in the future. So you're getting closer to the date where they're going to buy
Donnie Crawford (13:52):
When you started to really think through the Market Dominance stuff and the making sure you're falling within that cycle, I think that big idea was that is the ultimate reason for following up. I mean, it's completely the, that's the big idea, the important idea to keep in mind. So hopefully I can relate that to them. By the way, on the fantastic piece.
Chris Beall (14:19):
Yeah.
Donnie Crawford (14:19):
I remember actually doing flight school with them and on the fourth call, the fourth blitz with Olive Caser, there was one group where we were talking about fantastic. We were talking about that word. Like any objection that comes your way, it's almost like you can just answer "fantastic." That's fine. Great. I do like the answer of even people hanging up with you, fantastic. That person answers their phone. Move on. That's great. I'm going to follow-up with that person later.
Chris Beall (14:47):
Yeah.
Donnie Crawford (14:48):
There was a rep who used the word "fantastic" five to seven times in one call with every single objection he got. It was hilarious. And we even got on, Matt and I, heard this guy saying fantastic over and over and over again. And his whole attitude about these calls was just magical. It was just amazing. And it was just because he was treating these calls as, not as a scary cold call, but as something that he can learn from and learn how to handle objections and have the right attitude when handling them. It was actually really a beautiful thing.
Chris Beall (15:28):
That is fabulous. I mean, that is... Self-talk is funny, right? Because self-talk like, I'm going to come up with something I say to myself is not effective.
Donnie Crawford (15:38):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (15:39):
It has to be almost like cursing, right? It's anti-curse.
Donnie Crawford (15:46):
It is the anti-curse.
Chris Beall (15:49):
We need to have something come out of us that's kind of like... Cursing comes from a different part of the brain than speaking. It actually is a completely different part of the brain.
Donnie Crawford (16:00):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:00):
It's not related. It was barely related to speech. Cursing is more closely related to physical action.
Donnie Crawford (16:07):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:07):
Like punching the door or something like that.
Donnie Crawford (16:08):
Totally. There's actually a physical energy that comes out of it when you curse. There's actually a psychological effect, physical effect to it.
Chris Beall (16:17):
Yeah, cursing, self-talk that allows us to reposition ourselves for action after something like that.
Donnie Crawford (16:24):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:24):
And it's important that people do it. It actually is really important. And it lets us know something about how somebody else feels, that they're serious, that this means something to them.
This is the anti-curse. This is saying "That thing went bad, but cursing is a bad idea right now because I need to be in a different psychological space." So you need a knee jerk reaction, but it's just an expostulation that allows... And it's said in a positive way and you need to practice it. One of the beauties of ConnectAndSell is you'll get to practice that many times a day and you'll get really good at it. [crosstalk 00:17:05]
Donnie Crawford (17:04):
That's a big idea too, Chris, that's a really good idea. That's a podcast.
Chris Beall (17:04):
Remind me-
Donnie Crawford (17:09):
That's a podcast.
Chris Beall (17:13):
That is a podcast.
Donnie Crawford (17:13):
The anti-curse and you have to practice them
Chris Beall (17:17):
First thing in anti-cursing, right? We learned how to curse when we're young and we become very good at it. As teenagers, we practice it. And then as adults, we really, really have got it down. But we don't really learn to anti-curse because why? Right? We lose... After all, if we do that in public with people that we're trying to get to help us, here's the deep dynamic. When we're young, we're in a power struggle with our parents. We need their help, but we want independence. We have to have independence because we have to become adults someday. So we're doing this really awkward dance with our parents and that dance involves power. And we have to be careful about not giving up too much power to our parents, too early. And parents, this is why it's tiring to be a parent because you're in a power struggle with your children all the time.
No matter whether you think you are or not, because they have to be on an evolutionary journey where they take independence and you lose power. Because at some point you're dead and they're not, and they need to continue to function. Right? So if you have all the power and they never managed to get the independence, it doesn't work out so well. Right?
So there's this journey that we're all on. And you would think that we would get to the point where we're no longer fighting everybody around us in order to keep them from having too much power. But in fact, we all do something in order to gain power with others around us, the way we used to with our parents. I call it the baby bird syndrome. We open our mouth and show the pink interior and say, "feed me."
So we complain. We complain in order to restore a power relationship that we like, which is our power over our parents by us squawking. And we don't have to do it with our parents. We can do it with strangers.
The way this dynamic really, really goes down all the way is in sales we have a problem. And the problem is we have to be the adult. And most people can't give up the power that comes from not being the adult and having people do things for you because you complain. Those who do by the way, are a master salespeople. The definition or the hallmark of the master salesperson is somebody who is so grown up that they have no, inclination to complain about bad things that happen. In a sales situation, they have mechanisms that they've adopted. Anti-cursing is one of them in order to maintain their status as the adult in the two person relationship between seller and buyer, the buyer must never be the adult. The buyer has to complain.
Donnie Crawford (20:03):
And then you're there to provide the solution and the guidance and to be the trusted adult and parent to lead them down the right path. Yeah. That's interesting. That's interesting.
Chris Beall (20:15):
Exactly. So it's totally different from what folks think, which is, "If I'm strong, one of the things I get to is I get to say, 'Hey, that wasn't good enough. You should have done more, whatever it happens to be.'" Right? But as the adult, with a bunch of kids, that's a ridiculous thing to do unless you're trying to get them to understand and grow. In a sales situation, we're not trying to get the other person to grow.
Donnie Crawford (20:38):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (20:38):
We're trying to get them to explore with us, whether it's wise for us to work together from their special knowledge, which don't have. We have to have access to their special knowledge about their situation. We have knowledge about our solution that somehow those could come together in a conversation we could figure out, "Oh yeah, this is something we ought to do." But it doesn't work so well if we can't access their knowledge and we can't access their knowledge, if we're complaining and making them do stuff for us. We're accessing their resources.
Donnie Crawford (21:10):
Well, parents and child relationships are the same way. A lot of times the child's not going to open up and not going to provide the information until they realize the parent is really there for their safety and their guidance and they can trust them and they're not just going to spew out feature function to their kids. They're going to listen and understand and be honest with whether their advice or their product or their solution is going to even be valid in a situation or not. You have to be willing to say, "Yeah, we don't apply to you at right now at this time. I can't give you advice right now at this time, because it doesn't make sense for you, but in four months in may." In four months-
Chris Beall (21:57):
Exactly. Because I can see your evolution from my experience. Yeah. So I think what we tend to do is simply play these... We play these old scenarios out, depending on our level of maturity. And in sales learning how to act more mature than you are, is a key to making progress.
Donnie Crawford (22:20):
It's interesting.
Chris Beall (22:21):
And therefore having words that you can say to yourself that cause you, or help you act more mature than you are, is very useful.
Donnie Crawford (22:29):
Yeah. When I was 19 or 20, I was on my mission. Me and my companions were all trying to be really good, like really good people. Like, I mean, just... I've never tried harder to be as good of a person as I could possibly be than I was in those two years when I was on my mission. And there was a companion of mine who lived a very colorful life before joining... To be going on a mission. And he was a bodybuilder. He lifted weights even on his mission. And it was hilarious, him trying to be good. The time I knew he was really, really trying was when he dropped free weights onto his foot and he yelled, "Yes. Yes." And he just was screaming at this, his cuss word was a positive. Right? It was exactly the anti-curse that was like... And it filled him with endorphins and it took the pain away actually. But it's a perfect example of the "fantastic" that guys will answer the phone. It was-
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I love it. I love it. Well, this is the essence of the whole thing. And I think we got to it here in this stuff about follow-ups. As the essence is the hardest stuff, which is deciding to overcome our need for emotional distance and retreat when we feel rejected, that's the hardest part of sales. That's why Jet Black wrote a whole book about it. So the hardest part is where we need the most help. And we need the help from others and each other and ourselves... I mean others in ourselves. And we got to have something that we do when it gets hard.
Donnie Crawford (24:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And that's going to be talking to ourselves and we better say the same thing every time with the same tone of voice.
Donnie Crawford (24:17):
I like it. I'm absolutely going to use fantastic. This person answers the phone for this. I will incorporate that. So.
This is a continuation of the conversation we started the last episode with Mandy Farmer, CEO, Accent Inns. Chris asks Mandy the question of what's next after you have firmly decided that fun is the core of building a great business, and nothing will push me off this. How do you attract and retain the right people who hold these same values? Corey likened the tone of the company to something like the people who make Cards Against Humanity. Even their company contact info on the game sets the tone for their irreverence. They are the same all the way through from the product they make to the people who support it and lead the company. There is a box of awesomeness that is given to each new hire at Accent Inns. They know in a short period of time who is embracing their values and who is faking it. She does the fakers a favor and cuts them loose quickly, out of kindness to them and to her team. She says, "Fire fast, hire slow." Learn more about her success ideas in this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "How to retain the people who want to save men's souls."
If you missed the first part of this interview, please listen here >
----more----
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The full transcript for this episode is here:
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, we're continuing our conversation with Mandy Farmer, CEO of Accent Inns. Be sure to listen to the first episode to hear all about fun being key to your success. This continues the conversation where we're talking about how to attract and hold the right people. It goes back to an old sales anecdote where a guy was walking down the street and he saw some brick layers. And he asked the first bricklayer, "What are you doing?" he said, "Laying bricks." The next one he asked, "What are you doing?" he said, "Making six bucks an hour." He asked the next one, "What are you doing?" "Building a cathedral." And he asked the fourth one, "What are you doing?" and he said, "Saving men's souls." This is how you find and retain the salespeople and the team members that want to be saving men's souls, not just the bricklayers. Tune in for this episode of Market Dominance Guys.
Chris Beall (01:18):
So you went through all of that. When were you, "Okay, now Natalie, is this what I have to do, but this is what I have business faith in?" So to speak. There has to be a point in there somewhere it's like, "I'm compelled, I must do this, I'm doing it, trying, it's sort of working, sort of not working." and then, "Now I'm so convinced that fun is at the core of building a great business, that nothing will ever be able to push me off that, even if a global pandemic, which probably is never going to happen, were to come along and blast my industry to smithereens, I'm not moving off the fun position. The fun spot is going to be mine." When did that happen?
Mandy Farmer (02:00):
I think it first started happening maybe about five years ago. Before that, I always knew that fun was a part of where I wanted to go. So I always knew, "Okay, here's where I want to go and it involves a lot of fun along the way." But we weren't there, we were way down here. So the first thing for me was, I was getting the right team and so slowly but surely, I made sure we crafted the most amazing executive team. We couldn't call ourselves an executive team because that is a no fun name. So we're the Care Bears. So our Care Bears are... They're phenomenal. And I truly believe that crafting that team has been without a doubt the thing that I'm most proud of stuff, because they're phenomenal. So with them, we can do whatever we want. So once we had the Care Bears in place, the next step was making sure that we've got the right GMs in place like, Natalie.
And that was hard, right? Because it's going to mean getting rid of some people, but also making sure that you can attract the right people. We've got this amazing general manager in place and then of course it just trickles down. But once we have the Care Bears in place, the thing that we did after that was we sat down and the team, including all of our general managers and our frontline employees, we sat down and we crafted our values. So as much as I really wanted to say to them, "Guys, it's fun, it's fun, right?" I can't do that, I can't say that. It's got to be organic and we all need to come up with what our values are. So of course they're your real values, they're what makes our company great. So I didn't even need to suggest fun. Fun is going to be right up there, because it's already how we're living our values.
But the thing is, once we've got it in place, that alongside our other three values or our four values in total, then what happens is that when someone comes into our organization that's new, and the very first day that they're with us, they get a box of awesomeness. And it's a beautiful, awesome box. And that box of awesomeness has four things in it. And all four things relate to one of our values. So immediately on a first day, people understand, "Oh okay, I've got a Kazoo, why do I have a Kazoo?" And it's because we have fun, right? And we celebrate success. So it's just a touch point, but it's one of those things that is brought in on day one with people. Then they start training and they see that our training is also fun, because our values have touched every single thing that we do. So if, even if it's our policies and procedures, look at it through the lens of fun, they still need to be tight. They still need to be very specific, but they can still have... You can put your goggles on and look at your policies and procedures.
So that's just what we've done, is we've really made sure to look at everything through the lens of our values.
Chris Beall (05:04):
Corey, your buying heads should just be spinning at this point. So Corey, what, in your experience in your career, who's come closest or what situations come closest to Mandy's approach? Or have you ever seen it tried other than any certain crazy friends you have?
Corey Frank (05:24):
I think... And you and I have spoken about this offline a few times, Chris, is when it... And Mandy, you're touching on it... Is when fun is mandated, when it seems forced, when customer service, the customer comes, number one. When it becomes more just a slogan that is in the employee break room, versus lived from the top down, that's where I think the customers and the certainly, the prospects can feel it. I think of cards against humanity, right, that game. And when that came out a few years ago, there's no other word I could think that, but it's a reverent enough, where even on their customer service line, if you had a problem with one of the card decks that you ordered, or you wanted more, it was this concept that they could still get business done, but they're not going to have this lead with ego. And having pride in your brand does not mean that it's an elitist concept, necessarily. I'm thinking of some of the other hotel brands that, they're very nice.
You feel very different when you walk in, but "comfortable" isn't the word that I would use, because they're almost so over the top elegant, the folks are more like butlers or maids than they are like people that you want to hang out with after shift and have a beer. Or, I don't necessarily trust them to say, "Where's the best place to go for a pizza and a hot dog around here?" Right? So I think Chris, right, what we've seen certainly in our inside sales teams over the years and all the teams that we've looked at and consulted with and been a part of, is sometimes the drudgery of making the dials is a challenge. One of the stories that comes to mind a mentor told me, was pretty famous story, right?
A man walks past a construction site and sees a number of workers laying brick. And he goes through the first worker who's laying brick and says, "Hey, what are you doing?" he's like, "I'm building a wall." And goes to the second worker, "Hey, what are you doing?" and he says, "I'm making six bucks an hour." Goes to the third person, "What are you doing?" he's like, "I'm building a cathedral." And then he goes to the fourth person says, "What are you doing?" he's like, I'm saving men's souls." Now we all have worked with each of those four different types of folks, but it's probably the latter two people and particularly, the latter person that are saving men's souls that has this attraction, this endearment to, like you had said, Mandy, "To jump out of bed before the alarm clock goes off every day and get to work."
So how do you go about... Right, Chris? I'm curious. How do you go about recruiting these type of people? Did they come from referrals? I think I noticed something on your website that you have folks that have been there over 10 years and you probably don't lose people, I would imagine, even though you're probably not the highest paid hotel or hospitality chain in the area, specifically in a nice area like DC. So how do you recruit, how do you retain and how do they weed themselves out? So they're not parasites, because they probably look around and say, "Dude, I don't believe in saving men's souls." and, "I don't believe in building cathedrals, I'm just here for the six bucks or I'm just here to make a wall and then go home and slide down my dinosaur at the end of the day and go back to my family." So you got to have this business's personal mentality. I think this big picture, it's... How do you guys do it so well at Accent?
Mandy Farmer (08:40):
Well, I can tell we're on the same page and I think it's really important to get rid of the bad apples. So I've always said that, I've always supported my team to let them know, "You what, it might cost us money, it might cost us money to get rid of these people." So if that's the case, I support you because it is no fun working alongside one of those people, they will ruin your day. So it's worth paying that money. It really, really is. So I've always said that, "Fire fast, hire slow." So they know that I've got that support. But the other thing is, is that we've got a really amazing people culture, whereby yeah, we have fun, but we also do things right. For me, fun is also doing a really good job. So doing a really good job means that you are coaching your team.
So you're sitting down with them on a regular basis. You're giving them feedback, you're coaching them along. And if they don't meet the milestones, then we say goodbye. So that happens pretty quickly. We give them lots of opportunities and lots of training along the way, but if they're not going to cut it, then it's really not fair to the rest of the team that they stay on with us. And they're probably going to be better suited. I have fired people who I know are leading better lives because I fired them, because they just weren't going to be happy working in my weird world. So now they're in a great other place. So that's such a good new story when something like that happens. So with our recruitment, we do ask for referrals.
We pay for referrals because you know what, if we hire someone good chances are they're going to have good friends, right? And if they bring their friends into work then, again, that family fun atmosphere just gels more, right? You want to work with your friends, you want to work with people you like. So that's one trick we use. And then we will put on job fairs. That sounds so boring, doesn't it? But not how we do it. We actually do fairs, right? So there's cotton candy, there's a dunk tank, and again, it just shows like, "Hey, here's what you're going to get." Right? "Right off the bat, come join us, we're fun? And then, before you know it, you don't have to advertise for people because the word of mouth starts going and you become known as an employer of choice and you don't have to hire as much because so many people stay with you. I've got a lot of people on our team that have been with us for a really, really long time. And that feels so good.
Chris Beall (11:25):
It does. We just [inaudible 00:11:27] private celebration with our head of research this morning and sent him a note. This is his 10th anniversary with the company. And the main thing that I'd told him was, "It's such a pleasure and it's so much fun working with you." And we've never met, he's 11,000 miles away. And we work together every day on different kinds of stuff. It's a blast and that's the main thing.
It's just, I don't think any of us stay doing anything for very long if it's not fun. Even the parasites have a hard time and they just have parasite fun, which is a different kind of fun. It's that taker kind of fun, but it's like, "Yeah, but the rest of us, it doesn't work for." But it's a sure sign, I think, that you're succeeding in using fun as a competitive weapon of business quite frankly. When what you're really competing for, which is talent, ultimately it's the people in business and into my business. It's always the people and you're competing for them every day. And if you have a competitive edge for the ones you really want, so they qualify in because they're referred and they qualify in, because it's no fun to work for a company that really values fun if you don't. It's the worst thing in the world.
Chris Beall (13:34):
So you were pelting invaders fairly naturally. Every once in a while, there's a psychopath who really work hard to worm their way in if they see enough value. And you can normally tell. I can tell anyway when they ask for a big title, because it's not fun to have a big title, it's ridiculous to have a big title. So that's like, "okay, you need a big title, you're not going to be hired, right, that's all there is to it." "Oh, I needed to do my job." "Really? Well, that doesn't sound like fun." But it's fascinating to me. So all these folks come to your property... I come to your hotel and I have this experience, do you have business people who show up that then go...
They go off into their lives and they come back to you and say, "Hey, Mandy, you're doing something different over there, can you help me bring that into my business? What is this magic? I came into the room, I saw a bunch of cool stuff, it was all fun, I had great experiences of the people. Even the people who were cleaning the room, they were fun. How'd you do that? Can you help me understand that?" Does anybody ever come and ask you that?
Mandy Farmer (14:48):
Well, strangely enough, I'm actually doing a webinar tomorrow. And it was a company, they've asked me to come and talk to their group. And I think it's because right now, so many people are, or they're in that fear mode and they can see that I'm not. So they want to help their team get into that positive brainstorming like, "Okay, where are the opportunities here?" So I'm happy to help any company do that. So yet just this week, last week I did one and it really fuels me as well to the point where just yesterday we started talking about, "Should we actually put together something? Should we put together a leadership retreat for when this is all over, we can actually welcome some people to some of our properties and put on like a really good in-depth how to do this, how to thrive no matter what life throws your way." So it was just yesterday we started talking about that. So I'm really glad you're asking me that question.
Chris Beall (15:56):
That's so funny. I was talking to Natalie just yesterday and I said, "So are you guys thinking of using your property as a magnet for learning about fun and applying fun to business? Because it just seems like such a natural go somewhere, you have fun, you learn about fun?" And people who actually do it, not a bunch of consultants who come in and have no fun and claiming to make you fun, right. And come away with both easy stuff from the hard stuff, because the easy stuff is like, "Let's have fun." The hard stuff is, "Oh, and guess what? You're going to have to fire a bunch of people."
But that doesn't sound like fun, right? It's like, we're all CEOs on this little podcast here and it's kind of funny that I belong to a CEO group that's called the Alliance of CEOs. And I love these people, I just love when we get together. Now, every Friday we used to just do it once a month and it's virtual. So it's easy to travel. It's a gray area thing, I'm up here. I'm now in Port Townsend. I'm probably not that far from you. If I were a really good swimmer, I bet I could get-
Mandy Farmer (17:03):
I could see you [crosstalk 00:17:03].
Chris Beall (17:04):
If I go over to the top of the bluff over here, I can wave a little, "Hi."
Mandy Farmer (17:07):
Such a cute show, love that [inaudible 00:17:10].
Chris Beall (17:11):
We'll be right over as soon as the border opens back up, although I don't think they're going to detect a swimmer. I think that that gets [crosstalk 00:17:17]. I'm not good enough on a standup paddle board and it's too comical, actually. You could make major league YouTube videos. I can defeat any cat video by watching me try to get up on a paddle board. That's my-
Mandy Farmer (17:29):
I think you should do a podcast from a paddle board.
Chris Beall (17:32):
It would be very short and shaky.
Corey Frank (17:35):
I think we should do a podcast from one of the Accent hotels when this clears up Chris, right? I think we go out of location.
Chris Beall (17:43):
So anyway, the Alliance, we get together and we talk and it's kind of funny. But this always sounds [cringe 00:17:48] but I think it's actually funny, I call it "The lonely binds club". Because, it's not lonely hearts, but CEOs have lonely minds. You were the person who was working on the business all the time, even when you're sleeping. If you don't think you are, if you jam on your dreams carefully, you'll probably find out that that's what they were actually about, right? It's trying to figure out the business because business is dynamic, because as I've always said, "People are only different in a small number of ways. Businesses are different from each other in a nearly infinite number of ways."
And while we have balance sheets and P&Ls and all that, they don't really capture how we're different from each other, how dynamic businesses are. So we're always working on them. So here we have these lonely minds and we get to meet and talk like this and we'd be with our Alliance of CEOs, but it's CEOs talk to CEOs and they can connect at the mind level, because we have to work on the same crazy stuff, right? And what folks don't often realize is that even if fun is core to your business, getting to fun involves doing things that don't sound like fun, but you got to make them fun. To that's the hard part, right? I don't have the luxury of waking up someday and saying, "You know what, I'm not going to have any fun today. I'm going to take a non-fun attitude towards the parts of the job that other people might think aren't fun."
They have to be fun too, even though they have these other qualities, like letting somebody go or doing a tough deal with a customer in a difficult negotiation. Whatever it happens to be, I got to be having fun doing that. Whereas somebody else might have to have fun having cold calls, which is a lot of what our company does, right? So I just think that's such a big part of this, is if you want to have fun, be part of your business, you got to take it really seriously without being grim. Seriousness is seriousness of purpose and grimness is a bad attitude and [inaudible 00:19:59] tease that apart. Do you ever run into that where it's so important to have fun that sometimes it's like, "But I got to do this part thing?"
Mandy Farmer (20:07):
Oh yeah. So another thing we do is we use strength finders. So we know our team intimately. And so what might be fun for you might not be fun for me, but maybe what the things that I don't find fun, Corey is going to find really fun. And so that's how we do it. We know where each one of us thrive. So that for me, I'm the big thinker brainstormer or cheerleader. But when we get down to the nitty gritty details, I'm not that very good at it. Whereas I've got people on my team who just cannot think big and they just, it scares them when someone says, "Oh, we're going to do that." So they're the ones that are actually going to implement that. And they really thrive in it and have so much fun doing the implementation part.
So while it is hard to let people go and as a CEO, I need to be there. If let's say I'm going to let one of my team go, I would be there. But I'm also going to have someone there with me who, they're good at this and they also know that they're actually liberating someone. So even though it's hard, I know deep down, if it isn't the right fit, I am actually really helping that person. So there's a way for me to feel good about it. But I really believe that it's about talking about what your strengths and what your weaknesses are so that you can team up, because I know all my weaknesses, I'll procrastinate on them. And if I am held accountable with my team and they know what my weaknesses are, someone will help me and they'll take the lead on it. And I'll just follow along with them.
Chris Beall (21:51):
I think that's such a huge principle. I'm a big believer that the main thing we do in teams is we cover each other's backs, because our backs are weak and we're all weak in different ways. A team can be strong and have fun where the individuals will sometimes but won't often because doing stuff that you suck at isn't fun.
Corey Frank (22:11):
Well, it's liberating, I think. Two, you had mentioned this earlier, Mandy, coming to work for the first year or so as a CEO taking over the company, trying to put your own stamp on it. I think the word you used is "authenticity", which I like, is that one of the reasons I love my podcast partner here so much over the years is he is the same over a beer as he is on stage, as he is on a $5 million deal. And that is true authenticity. There's no trying to think, "What role am I supposed to play? Am I supposed to play this role for this title or this role for this title?" And I imagine if you have a culture of that, like you do at Accent, that it's liberating for your team members to feel that way, is that somebody wants to work with me and collaborate with me throughout this 9.00 to 5.00, or whatever this period of time I'm at work, because of me, of who I am, not for my education and not for what, but because of who I am first and foremost.
Somebody could have the same degree that I do, the same GPA, the same experience, but that's not as personal as what makes me laugh or what makes me burn the midnight oil on a project or makes me go the extra mile. I think trying to harness that and trying to... As in a aerosol spray that you spray when you walk into the hotel, is it an injection or an IV treatment when they go through the hiring process? But I imagine whatever it is at Accent, it's clearly working.
Mandy Farmer (23:43):
Yeah. We joke about it because we can tell like with the new hire, it takes a good couple of months to where they really go, "That's for real?" And then finally it hits them and they're like, "Oh my God, this place is for real." And then they realize-
Corey Frank (23:59):
And then they come out, then they're really, really excited.
Mandy Farmer (24:02):
Yeah. And then it's just they drop all their pretenses and they're just like, they've drunk the Kool-Aid and it's exciting when we've reached that moment. And what I've noticed over the years is, it probably... I remember maybe three years ago it took six months, a solid six months before I saw that, "Yeah okay, they drank the Kool-Aid." And now we're down to, I think one or two months where it's just, they're starting to realize. And I think it's because all those previous hires they'll actually say to them, "Yeah, it's for real, like seriously, let your guard down. It's cool. We're all cool here. You're safe here."
Corey Frank (24:36):
You're safe.
Mandy Farmer (24:37):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (24:38):
So I've got a question for both Chris and you Mandy. One thing I want to ask Chris for so long, so is there a book or a movie? Just one book or one movie that if I was going to work for you, Chris, at ConnectAndSell, or if I was going to work with you, Mandy at Accent, is there a book or movie say, "Listen, don't look at the website, don't look at our collateral, don't look at our P&Ls, don't look at our investor docs. Read this, or watch this and you'll get me after doing that." Is there one that comes to mind for both of you guys?
Chris Beall (25:08):
There's one for me. I would have you read, Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!, which is the autobiography of Richard Feynman. If you want to get me, read that.
Corey Frank (25:20):
Surely... And what's it about?
Chris Beall (25:21):
It's about one of the physicists who made the 20th century what it was and made some of the greatest discoveries ever. And he had more fun. I mean, the title of his autobiography is Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! This is somebody who took the hardest intellectual work of all in the most fraught situation that mankind has ever faced, which is the creation of the atomic bomb and made it fun. And not just made it fun like a joke, but made it fun like the fun was the key to getting the work done. And he's also the guy that figured out why the Challenger crashed, the guy who pulled that little O-ring material out of the ice water, the congressional hearing, and got the congressmen to understand what had happened.
And this was a guy who put fun front and center. And if you want to listen to something you might not understand, but it's worth listening to. Listen to the finding lectures on physics. I realize that sounds pretty bad and it doesn't sound fun. And I sound like a physicist, which I am, but I tell you what, just listen to Richard Feynman and you'll get how the most serious stuff in the world can be built on a foundation of fun.
Corey Frank (26:35):
That's perfect. That's perfect for you. Mandy, what do you think? How about in your corner?
Mandy Farmer (26:40):
I'm going to go with three books. So one book that really, really influenced me in creating a product that was so different, that really gave all of us permission to have more fun. It was a book it's Purple Cow by... I think it's by Seth Godin?
Corey Frank (26:59):
Seth Godin, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mandy Farmer (27:00):
And that really made me realize like, "Okay, I need to do something different here." So that's when we created hotel Zed. Then hotel Zed was still wacky and weird that it allowed Accent to really blossom as well. So that's the first book that I think, to really understand my brain, that one gave me permission to really seek out differences. On leadership, I'm going to say Brene Brown, Dare to Lead. I love that book. I love all her wisdom on being an authentic leader. It's on my bookshelf, in fact, I got it one foot away from me right now. And it's one that I can pick up, I skim to any page and go, "There it is, this is it." Then the third one is also a foot away from me and it's called, The Culture Code and it's by Daniel Coyle. And I love a thriving alive culture. To me, that is what so excites me. If we can create that workplace that just, as soon as you walk in the door, you feel it as a customer, that's what really motivates me and really gets me going.
Corey Frank (28:09):
That's awesome. That's great. Well, I tell you what I think we're out of time for today that has been incredible discussion. Thank you, Mandy, for coming. So from what I understand, right, it synthesized a lot of the tips that you have for fun is, "Go fun or go home, bring your true, authentic self to work, no parasites," certainly you and Chris are aligned on that. "Find your Wolf pack in your organization," which I really like that concept of the rebranding. "Always look to help." Then of course the one, if I could put an explanation point on what all the things that you've said today, it's ,"No fear." So, really appreciate the time and I think Chris, we have a regular guest here in the making. I don't think we have standing guests almost like they had on the Johnny Carson show, but I think Mandy should definitely be one of those. And especially if we can shmooze her to maybe do an onsite in a few weeks here, a few months up North at one of her properties too, what do you think?
Mandy Farmer (28:09):
I absolutely love it.
Chris Beall (29:07):
Mandy, I'm going to be right up, it's not very far from Port Townsend and I'll be seeing you soon.
Mandy Farmer (29:13):
I looked forward to it, Chris. It was great to meet both of you.
Chris Beall (29:17):
Thanks so much for being on, I really appreciate it.
Corey Frank and Chris Beall just had the fun privilege of recording a Market Dominance Guys podcast with Mandy Farmer, CEO of Accent Inns on the most important value in her business (and ours also, it turns out) - fun. This is part one of this interview with Mandy. Take a break and enjoy some lightness, as well as considering a new approach to help secure employee retention while growing your bottom line and see why she and her team are thriving in the hospitality industry while her competition is going through massive layoffs.
As soon as the border opens up and we can cross the border, our team will take the ferry north to have fun learning more about the crucial role of fun in business - the best way, by direct experience! Thanks, Mandy, for being our second guest ever, and for sharing the business power of fun with us today. And thanks, Ryan Reisert for introducing me to Natalie Corbett yesterday.
I'm so glad we took the opportunity to have these conversations. Conversations Matter. Fun conversations matter even more! Join us for this episode of Market Dominance Guys.
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Visit, https://ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:28):
Great. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Corey Frank, and the esteemed patron of honor here, Chris Beall as always to my virtual left. Today, we have a very special treat for everybody because we don't have guests usually, Ryan [Riset 00:00:52] made it just under the wire from a few weeks ago, but we're honored to have Mandy Farmer who runs the Accent Inns. It's a family owned and operated group of hotels in the British Columbia area. And I think you'll agree after our chat with me and Chris today that their approach, the Accent Inn approach, of taking fun seriously is a core value for any company, especially in today's environment. So welcome Mandy to the podcast.
Mandy Farmer (01:24):
Glad to be here.
Corey Frank (01:26):
Chris, so how did we get to know Mandy here? Normally it's just Johnny Carson and Ed McMahon, Ed McMahon, of course. And we decided to have some guests and an esteemed one at that, so how did we get to know Mandy? And how does this have to do with Market Dominance? Is fun a dominant trait for businesses today?
Chris Beall (01:43):
Well, yeah. So what happened was Ryan Riset, somehow, and you know how many people we talk to at ConnectAndSell. If you haven't had a conversation with us, you probably are hiding somewhere pretty well. Somehow he had a conversation with Mandy's colleague, Natalie Corbett, and I don't know how that came about, but he told me about it, he said, "These guys are doing something in the hotel industry that seems impossible and yet they're just doing it."
And they're doing a bunch of something. So one of them was they're providing accommodations for essential workers. And that really resonated with me because my son, Galen, is an essential worker in Reno. And I know the effort that he goes through just to get into the house, because there's other people in there and he has to come home and strip down in the garage and put his clothes in a bag and sneak in through a known path that he takes quickly into the shower, and the whole bit. This essential worker business is a non-trivial undertaking and actually, he had an experience the other day that it would have been very nice if he could have gone somewhere else because he had a seizure at the office.
He's the assistant manager of the FedEx office in Reno, and just some combination of some medication that needed to be adjusted and as a result, lack of sleep and the stress of dealing with the public, on the front lines of public, that by the way, is not always a very kind to these essential workers, basically saying, "Hey, you're not at any risk, this is some kind of a hoax or whatever." So it's not a nice thing to hear during the day. So anyway, it would have been great if he could have gone somewhere other than having to come from the hospital all the way home and do all that. And so I heard about that and I got into a conversation yesterday with Natalie and what jumped off the page and maybe what was wildest, you know my way of doing business, right? I say, if you're not having fun, you're not taking this seriously enough. That's our number one thing. And every company I've ever built, every company I've run, every team I've ever run, number one, we're going to have fun. Number two is we're still going to be enthusiastically wrong every day.
We're just going to be so wrong so often and we're just going to maintain our enthusiasm, not in the face of being wrong, but our enthusiasm for being wrong. And if we can do those things, then a whole bunch of good stuff's going to happen. We don't know what it's going to be, but a whole bunch of good stuff is going to happen. And those are not easy things. And then we're going to keep the parasites out. I don't know if Mandy cares about that, but I care about it a lot. No parasites allowed in the company. If you're not willing to get in the row boat, row with us and [inaudible 00:04:24] like. If you've got a yacht over there a little ways away, and you're willing to sink the rowboat to go over to your yacht, that one doesn't work, right? And I've got my ways to doing that. So I heard this flown in first as a core value thing, and I thought, this is the missing thing you and I have talked about, but we have a whole episode about it.
We have an episode that says the best surfer is the one having the most fun, right? So we actually hit on it, but we've come at it peripherally through the fact that we think the conversations are the key, but in Mandy's world, something else is going on. It's like a major business invention, putting fun at the top of the value chart, the value of the company values and then letting that provably drive business results that are effectively impossible for others with the proof being that when her whole industry went like this, her company came out of it in a couple of days with new offerings that made sense, that were being fielded, that were on the street, the people who are using with new stuff every day, coming back. And then it turns out if you go to the past, they were already doing stuff like that. It was a continuation. So fun as an instrument, an essential foundational capability of market dominance we've never explored and here we are with Mandy. Sorry. That was kind of long Mandy, but did I catch it?
Mandy Farmer (05:51):
You did. Yeah. And I think obviously we speak the same language, we are cut from the same cloth.
Chris Beall (05:57):
What's wrong with us?
Mandy Farmer (05:58):
I love it. The fun is so important and I think that it's a really crazy thing to actually be talking about right now because we're in the middle of a pandemic. It's almost like we're not allowed to have fun right now, but for us, my company, we are thriving right now. Yes, revenues are down. Yes, I'm worried about our bottom line, but my company is thriving and we're thriving because of our values of having fun and taking care of each other, making sure we've got the community's back. And so even in great times, we thrive, but I can tell right now, we're on fire right now.
Corey Frank (06:41):
You know Mandy, one of the things I noticed from your website, first of all, two things, I love it says that pillow fights are optional. So you're putting that kind of irreverence fun tone at the forefront. But the other thing is, and I'm sure you notice this too, Chris, is that the images that you have on your website are of active people utilizing the property, not just of the property. A lot of hotels, you're just going to see the beautiful room with nobody in it. You're going to see the pool with nobody in it. You're going to see the expensive restaurant with nobody in it and in your imagery, it feels very family-friendly, it feels that fun is a preeminent value. Where does that come from? From a thesis or a theme as a core value, as Chris had said, of your company?
Mandy Farmer (07:30):
Well, really, one of our other core values is authenticity. And so we call it, being real and for us, fun has always been such an important part of my personal values in that I really want absolutely every single one of my team to come to work and to have fun and to enjoy their jobs. And so it's really important that we embrace that in absolutely everything that we do. So when you're talking about the language on our website, when you walk into one of our rooms, we have actually sat down and thought about how do I make this pen fun? Okay. You walk into the bathroom, how is it going to be fun? It's just going to be a boring hotel bathroom, but we've actually brainstormed. No, no, let's just think outside of the box, let's throw really bad ideas at everything. Let's have a laugh because these ideas are so bad that we're just going to laugh and have fun, but then you know what, one of us will go, "Oh, actually it's not bad" Yeah. And then before you know it, we're implementing it and we're doing it.
I know that if I'm having fun, when we welcome people into our hotels, they're going to have fun. And what I love is that, especially this really dark time, it's really important that people have that brightness in their day. So one of our themes is we're big onto ducks. We've got ridiculous rubber ducks and they're the craziest rubber ducks you've ever seen. My favorite is the lumber duck, and he's got this really big beard and he's holding a chainsaw. Why? I don't know why. And so people see that and it just brings a smile to their face. They'll look on the phone, and there's a joke on the phone, when you look at like dial zero for the front desk, there's jokes in there that are hilarious. And what happens is if people might be attending for a funeral or they might be in a subtle worker and they've had a really hard day and suddenly we've just given them a reason to smile and to just not take themselves so seriously and not take this whole, like everything so seriously. And just to have a bit of a smile brightens people's day.
Chris Beall (09:40):
Wow. So how'd you get here? How'd you get to... where you raised fun? [inaudible 00:09:48] I was kind of okay, so here's my fun story, I'll just throw it out there. My mom was a great practical joker. Now her practical jokes tended to be extreme. So here's an example of one where I went to the school bus stop in the morning, I grew up near where Corey lives now in Scottsdale Arizona, but it was way out in the desert. And I went to the school bus stop in the morning and the kids were obviously teasing something that was on the ground and that something turned out to be a big rattlesnake, big, big thing. Big around as my current arm, not my skinny little arms back then, and I was probably 14. So I thought this is bad news.
I got to do something. So I ran home, got my rifle came back. Can you imagine doing this now? Came back. I was thinking of getting a shovel or something, but I thought, I think I can kill the snake. And we didn't kill snakes, by the way, our family had a... One of our family values was not killing snakes, but this snake definitely was a problem. So I come back, now with the rifle, you can be at a distance, right? Hold it at arms length and that was my mom's gun, actually that she'd given me. Shot the snake, took it home, put it in the refrigerator because I thought we might need it because it's a snake. It was a lot of meat, right? We lived in a tough area and what did my mom do with it?
She curled it up on the top of the garbage and put it out for the garbage man, but she went to the effort of propping its mouth open and propping its fangs out individually with little toothpicks so the things are sticking out like this. And I found her waiting for the garbage man to show up and I said, "Mom, they'll never come and pick up our garbage again." She said, "It'll be worth it." So, that was the kind of fun that went on in my family. It was a little [inaudible 00:11:42] came right down to it, but I was otherwise raised by a Western Massachusetts person who had lived through the depression, and basically thought that we were all going to go broke and die tomorrow.
Corey Frank (13:02):
So I wasn't raised with fun, but something in there, something lit up in me and I've been into the concept of, through my whole career, whether it was the rock climbing and mountaineering part of the career at doing big walls or whatever, the whole idea is don't ever let it be grim. If we're going to succeed, we're going to have to have fun because this is... I guess my view is, life is hard, we better have fun or it's too hard. That's kind of it. So I was raised in a tough kind of situation like that, [inaudible 00:13:32]. How about you? How did you get to this weird position?
Mandy Farmer (13:35):
Well, I'm in a family business, so I'm third generation. We started off as a construction company. So it was my grandfather that started farmer construction and my dad worked in that field and he didn't like it. He was not happy. And so as a kid, I saw him not really enjoying his job. And then one day he pitched to his partners, "Hey, why don't we take this field where we keep a lot of the construction equipment? Why don't we build a hotel there?" And they thought he was crazy and he kept pursuing it and eventually it happened. And I literally watched my dad change overnight where he became this really excited, happy, passionate, enthusiastic man. And it was because he found the right job. He found the right career. So I ended up in the hotel industry too, never thought I'd join the family business.
And to be honest, I needed a job when I came out of university and started in sales at the family business and eventually worked my way up because it was fun working with my dad. And so he really allowed me to take over the company, but in a family business, it can be challenging to take over because you often approach it feeling like, "Oh, I only got this job because I'm a daughter." Like, I was given this job. And so I really felt like, "Oh, I've got to prove myself. And I've got to be just like him." Or I've got to be the stereotype of a CEO. And so for the first few years of my leadership, I really thought, "Okay, this is how it's supposed to be and I'm going to be this way." And I realized I was not bringing my true self to work.
And this really upset me. And we had some parasites and I knew that if I was really going to bring my true self to work, which is really a bit of a weird and wacky and fun loving, big hearted person, there was going to be some big changes at work. And so it took me a number of years to really figure it out. But it meant cultivating the right team. They have been the secret sauce to my success without a doubt, making sure that I'm surrounded by people who inspire me, who I want to be around, who are fun. I want to enjoy coming to work. I want to wake up on a Monday morning and go, "Yeah, I'm going to work today." And so, it was them that really motivated me. And I knew, I really sat down and spent time thinking about what is my ideal workplace? How am I going to get there? What am I going to do? And for me, that's bringing my weird and wonderful self to work with no qualms about it.
Corey Frank (16:19):
So what's the hardest part of being, not just fun centric, but fun foundational. What's the hardest part about keeping the fun going or keeping the company going?
Mandy Farmer (16:31):
Whew. Well, first off, when we first started implementing fun, people didn't get it. They were like, "Well, how are we supposed to do fun?" And they wanted to know, tell me how fun is. And I realized this isn't something you've mandated. It's got to be really authentic and real and grassroots. And so it took a long time to cultivate our sense of fun. We tried training on it and I was like, this isn't working, this isn't real. And so eventually it grew, but it's about leading, leading with fun and making sure you hire people that are fun and with big hearts. So that was probably one of the hardest things we've ever had to do. When people ask me, how do you do it? I often think I just can't really give you a recipe because it's got to come from within.
But basically everyone knows, when I talk about a company's success and why we're thriving, it's because I'm actually looking at it in terms of fun. And so I'm often not talking about it in terms of the bottom line and for many businesses out there, they're like, "That is nuts, that makes no sense, you're going to fail if you aren't looking at your bottom line" Of course, I am looking at it, but what it is is fun comes first. And then what always happens is your bottom line is actually going to be even better because you've got all these engaged people coming to work. And not only do you have an engaged workforce, but then you've got engaged customers because they see you having fun and they're engaging on your social media and they're sending you sales leads because they want to see you succeed. So suddenly your bottom line is beyond what you ever imagined, because you've actually focused on the one metric of fun.
Chris Beall (18:11):
So is that what you would say is what the big guys are missing, is they're using probably hospitality as it's a destination, a clean room, a great restaurant, friendly staff. And you have this little secret that maybe is a little slightly irreverent because I can't measure it, but yet you're thriving. And yet you get referrals from your existing customers who seem to be a pretty fervent in their desire to continue to stay at Accent every time they come to the BC area.
Mandy Farmer (18:41):
Yeah. When I think about my competitors and some of them, they're big boys, right? Like Holiday Inn, Marriott, all of these guys just so big that they almost are a little bit heartless and we're all about heart. We were just one big gushy heart, right? And so for them, they have a share price that they need to maintain. I don't have a share price. So I don't have to focus on those metrics, I can focus on different metrics, but strangely enough, if they actually focused on my metrics, I think that the share price would go up, but it doesn't work that way, unfortunately. And so for us, compared to our competitors, they were all about, "Oh, whoa, we have to cut. Right now, they went into fear mode. We have to cut, we have to reduce everything.
We have to cut our sales team. We have to do all this. And for us, we took a different approach. We were first off, safety. Safety of our team. We can't have fun if people don't feel safe so let's make sure that they all feel safe. And so that's when we went over our safety protocols and all of that, the second thing I didn't cut my sales team and all of our competitors did and their business fell off. It just completely fell off. And instead what happened with my sales team was they decided to rebrand. So we no longer have a sales team. We have a Wolf pack and they are hunting, and they are fierce and they are... I have never seen them more, just connected in bumbling and bursting up. They're a real inspiration to all of us, our whole team. So yeah, just this whole different approach. Fear-based versus love-based. And then once we had got in place, we decided, okay, well, how can we help in this time of craziness?
How can Accent Inns help? And so that's when we realized, okay, we can actually house the essential workers, any of the frontline workers to keep them safe, to keep their family safe. But then we realized that there's evenmore that we can do there. And so we partnered with a charity. We raised money so that all of those expenses were covered, these stays are free. So that if you are working, let's say in a grocery store, we need grocery store clerks, right? We need to keep them safe and healthy. We need their families safe and healthy. They can't afford to pay rent twice and stay in a hotel. So by doing what we're doing, we can actually wrap our arms around them, keep them safe. And then what happened in the communities was people started donating food to them. We started dropping off Easter chocolate for them. We have schools writing them letters. And so we stick these little love letters from elementary school students on their doors. And suddenly now, we're all the whole community is doing something good and positive and we feel great.
Corey Frank (21:35):
It's just tremendous. It's just tremendous. I got to ask a very specific question, I heard about this Valentine's day thing you guys were doing. I don't know when it was two years ago, whatever it was. Can you tell us that fun story? I think we all need a fun story right about now.
Mandy Farmer (21:53):
You bet. So we have two brands and they're both our brands. I don't franchise. I don't buy it from holiday and they are brands and it allows us to do weird and wonderful things. So one is act [sentience 00:22:05], but then the other one is Hotel Zed. So in Canada, the last letter of the alphabet is Zed. And so Zed is a wonderful cousin to Accent, we still have humor and fun, but it is really out there and it can push boundaries and limits. And so it's a retro chic boutique motel. So it's got all the throwbacks to the 1960s. It's a really, really fun place to say.
So on Valentine's day, it was years ago, we started off by running a Nooner promotion. And so we decided that Valentine's day, a lot of times what people do is they [inaudible 00:22:46] bouquet of roses, they pay way too much for roses. They try to get a reservation at the restaurant, but they can't get in. And it's just, you often Valentine's day can fall flat. So we decided, well, why don't you surprise your Valentine's day with your gift of your sexy self? And it's a Nooner, so you check in at 11 o'clock and you check out at two.
Corey Frank (23:07):
That's fabulous.
Chris Beall (23:07):
That's awesome.
Mandy Farmer (23:12):
So we started doing this and we run it every single year. And so this year, we always put a little slant on it. So this year, this slant was a baby maker and we thought, okay, so here's our Valentine's day nearest promotion. But if you actually make a baby at Hotel Zed, we're going to give you Valentine's day stays at any one of our locations for the next 18 years.
Corey Frank (23:39):
Wow.
Mandy Farmer (23:43):
[inaudible 00:23:43] CNN picked it up and then when CNN picks up something, it goes around the world and it's translated into Spanish, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian. It was crazy. Went around the world, TMZ picked it up. And then before you know it, they're doing a spoof on Saturday night, live on the weekend update.
Corey Frank (24:02):
Wow. TMZed.
Mandy Farmer (24:04):
Right.
Chris Beall (24:04):
TMZed that's right. And so, how many folks have... So it's been two years now, right? Or a year or so? I bet that everybody just flacks to the Valentine's day promotions this year, than at every hotel, that's incredible. And how many babies, any baby updates as for us yet?
Mandy Farmer (24:26):
We're still waiting for confirmation, but so far, no, it looks like we went and struck out this year.
Chris Beall (24:33):
Wow. Well. Hmm. So we'll be right up, but no, no babies. Not in the forecast on this particular Valentine's day or the next one or whatever, but that's just fabulous. So when you're in the process, when you made the decision to go fun, go fun or go home, right, so to speak?
Mandy Farmer (24:59):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (25:00):
And you're in that process and you're trying to figure out how to do it. And you're trying all the things that people might be recommending and let's bring in the consultants, let's do the training, let's do all that stuff. You got your parasites gnawing away at you because there's always parasites unless... In fact, I'll make a contention. In my companies, fun is how we keep parasites out. It's the number one part of our immune system, because the parasites have to fake that they want to come and have fun. And it's easy to find out they're faking before it [inaudible 00:25:34], usually easy before you hire them because they are parasites and parasites don't want to have fun, they want to have whatever they want to have. They want to feed off the organism that you've created and it's power and put some of it in their pockets, so to speak.
So you went through all of that, when were you like, "Okay, now Natalie, is this what I have to do because this is what I have business faith in, so to speak. There has to be a point in there somewhere, it's like, I'm compelled, I must do this. I'm doing it. Trying, it's sort of working, sort of not working and then pop. Now, I'm so convinced that fun is at the core of building a great business, that nothing will ever be able to push me off that even if a global pandemic, which probably is never going to happen. Where we were to come along, and the last of my industry is smithereens. I'm not moving off the fun position. The fun spot is going to be mine. When did that happen?
Corey and Chris talk about when to hire the right people, how to hire the right people, and horror stories. It starts with the tension between talent and alignment. There are three scenarios you don't want to end up with a new hire. You always want people that are talented and aligned, or else you either don't hire them in the first place, or accept this and fire them now. You may have a candidate that is talented and capable. You think talent will take over and they will become alignment. Never happens. Lack of alignment may be due to a fundamental insincerity and sucking out of the company what they can. Yes, I can do that, hey can I have that corner office?
Next, you may run into the candidate that has no talent and no alignment. First, why would you EVER hire that person? If you did - time to fire them. The final is the tougher one. They have alignment, but why only have some of the talents you need, but not enough so they lack performance. They just aren't catching on. Join Chris and Corey for this episode of the Market Dominance Guys: Construct Your Company So It Is Unappealing To Parasites.
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Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by:
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey (00:34):
Hey Chris, great to chat again. One of the things that I think we were talking about last time in abbreviated detail was when to hire the right people, how do you hire the right people, and maybe some horror stories of when the people that we hire are not in alignment with what our values are as a business, particularly in this market dominance role.
So I think it'd be interesting to hear from the master here, hear from you about, when you're knee deep in market dominance growth mode, and you have your systems, firing on all cylinders and everybody's in their respective swim lanes. How do you go about hiring and adding to the team where we both know that sometimes adding one person that is not culturally aligned can bring down the entire kingdom, so to speak, or at least set us back many, many, many months? So what have you learned from the market dominance growth patterns that we've seen and you've seen in certainly so many of your client companies and how it relates to hiring the right people and what are some of the processes folks used to make sure that they're hiring the right folks?
Chris (01:45):
Well, it's a fascinating question, Corey. I mean, we know that there's always a tension in every company, between talent and alignment. At General Electric, they used to talk about this, that you had the folks who were essentially talented and aligned, and of course those people are golden, and then you have the people who are talented and capable, but misaligned, and you tend to keep them because you keep thinking that their talent or their skill or whatever, is going to take over and somehow maybe they'll get aligned and then that doesn't ever happen and you finally end up firing them.
I mean, they used to talk about fixing that, but I don't know very many cases where somebody whose lack of alignment is due to fundamental insincerity as a human being and they're just kind of in it for themselves and seeing what they can suck out of the company. Ask not what you can give to the mission, they ask what's your pot of gold is going to look like at the end of the rainbow, and by the way, can I have that corner office please with this nice view?
And then there was the easy one, which is the no talent, no alignment. And how in the world did you hire that person? So there's your hiring processes, your recruiting and hiring processes be able to avoid, but anyway, that's easy.
And then there was the tough one, which is the person who has very well aligned, but they seem to have some of the skills, some of the talent they need, but it just doesn't come together, and so you're getting a performance, really it's not alignment and talent, it's alignment and performance, you're not getting performance. And what do you do about that?
Well, what do you do about it? Well first I think is you construct your company so that it is unappealing to parasite. The funny thing is, to where you can do...
Corey (03:21):
Parasites?
Chris (03:26):
Parasites, yeah. You're probably wondering what is a parasite?
Corey (03:30):
I saw the movie, it was fantastic. So I'm on bated breath here. Yeah. I'd love to hear about that.
Chris (03:35):
It's so funny that movie came out. I haven't seen it, and then it won all these awards, and people are talking to me about it, and I've been yapping about parasites for 35 years and it's, wow, finally, somebody else thinks they should make a movie about these creatures.
But parasites are funny, and businesses, in all systems, if you have something that is valuable and robust, that means it'll survive a fair range of experiences, including injuries and insults, then that something, whatever it is, is likely to be parasitized because one business model, so to speak, is to attach yourself to it and just suck good out of it, right.
So our bodies are like this, by some count, most of the cells that are in me right now, in my physical body, from the tips of my toes, to the top of my head somewhere, and a lot of them in my gut and on my skin are actually different organisms, they're not my DNA. If there is such a thing as my DNA, and I'm not sure I bought it anywhere or whatever, but it is certainly whatever I got from my mom and dad, that DNA is not their DNA, these are other organisms and they're living on me like I'm some sort of a planet or a country, a state or whatever it happens to be.
And they have their own lives and they have their own concerns and their own wars going on. You know, when the war and your gut gets bad between some creatures and some other creatures, you might feel ill. People are finally figuring that stuff out.
And well why is that true? It's because my physical body and its relationship to the world is such that I will survive a wide range of things, including this load of parasites. Some of which are good for me, some of which are bad for me, but they're all living off me. I've got to do the eating, I've got to go out and find something to eat, and they ultimately are eating what I ate in some form. Like maybe out of my gut, maybe out of my blood who knows what they're doing but they're living. They don't have to find a meal out in that world, they get to find a meal in this world, which is me.
And companies are like that because companies are pretty robust. If you have a company that's achieved market dominance, for instance. So let's posit that you've been following this program and you now are dominating, are in the process of dominating one market. You look pretty delicious to somebody outside who would love to come and join your band and enjoy the fruits of the hunting that the company does as the company finds new customers and goes through those first conversations we talked about and those followup conversations and builds trust. Think of the company's trust goodwill in the market as an estate that the company owns, it has farmland, so to speak, that it's created, it's taken the stumps out of the soil and can grow crops, right? So why not join up with that company instead of having to go and do your own hunting. As an individual, join up with the company, and that's why people join companies.
And one of the reasons is, hey, they're bigger than me. It's why my mom always told me to join a company, she said, "You know, why would you ever leave 'that good company'?" Of course, my mom lived through The Great Depression back in the '30s and a company looks like an island of safety to somebody who's been through that, compared to being an individual on your own.
When I went out as a consultant in 1988, my mom was horrified because I was leaving the safety of something that was bigger than me and more robust, and I was going out in my own little rowboat to do well. Now I went from making 60 grand a year to a quarter million a year between a Friday and a Monday, I thought that was pretty cool. My mom thought it was terrifying, the fact that I had a one-year contract for a quarter million dollars, it's like, are you kidding me? That's not a long enough contract. What happens after that? I go, "Mom, it's four years of what I was making." She says, "Yes, but what if you can't find a job in those four years?" Really, I'm telling you.
So it's very interesting. So the attraction is toward the robust entity that you can feed off of, and yet what you want in your company aren't people feed off it, you want people to contribute to it. That is everybody at a company has to be, from the bottom to the top, has to be fundamentally underpaid. That is, we all need to contribute more to the mission than we take out of the company economically. And at the top, so to speak, if you call it the top, I don't really think it is, but if you look at the traditional hierarchy, then you say all a CEOs sitting there at the top of the company. Well, that should be the most underpaid person, that should be the person whose contribution exceeds the value of their taking out by the most and whatever that equation has got to be set.
And that's pretty easy to do with founder-led companies. Actually, it's one of the reasons that founder-led companies do so well, it's because the anchor for the entire anti-parasite mechanism that you want to put in, is to make sure that the top person is not the top parasite and the worst hire in the world that you can make, and I've made, it is to bring in a very talented person with the pedigree, who's joining your company as CEO in order to milk the company.
And you can tell you have one of those when they talk a lot about their sincerity and what a team player they are. As soon as somebody in an interview process, as soon as somebody tells you they're a team player, you know they're a parasite. It's a certainty, because the team players don't talk about being team players, it's like saying to somebody that you meet over coffee, "Oh, by the way, I breathe oxygen."
Corey (09:18):
What do they talk about? What should they talk about?
Chris (09:21):
What should they talk about is they should be very curious about the company's mission, about the good that it does for customers, that the company does for customers. How it achieves that and how it operates on the inside in order to be able to continue to create that value for customers and how it is financed. They should be interested in that because that might affect what happens next, like are we financing by selling or as a gross processor? Are we financing by stock appreciation? Those are the curiosity that a person would show, sincere curiosity in the company, is an indicator of potential alignment.
Now, of course, there could be a curiosity that's like Little Red Riding Hood's Wolf. Very curious about how good Red might tastes but it's a fine line, that's why hiring is tricky.
Now there are a bunch of things in the world of biology that are very tricky. That it's kind of amazing when you think about that they've ever been figured out, that eating is one of them. Think about how dangerous it is to eat, that you're putting something inside your body. You better make it pretty good choice of what's going in there because it might be bad. It has an advantage, whatever it is from being on the inside, and you've decided voluntarily to stick it in there, put in your mouth, chew it up.
Corey (10:44):
Well Chris, we spent a lot of time in person and if it truly was dangerous to eat, then I'm living on the edge. I have for many, many years so.
Chris (10:56):
Exactly. I think that we... Obviously, biology has solved that problem, and organisms have figured it out, all sorts of things, how to eat each other too often, how to procreate without one killing the other, although in the world of spiders, that's a little tricky and we all know the praying mantis' fate.
And so there's a lot of trickiness to this whole business of interacting with other creatures. And when you're a company, you're a creature and you're going to hire somebody, they're a creature. If you're going to eat a really big, dangerous meal, like a CEO, you better make sure it's not going to eat you from the inside.
Corey (11:29):
If I'm hiring a senior person like a CEO or a senior leader, don't I want to know about their previous team and how they interacted with their previous team? Isn't that a leading indicator or a positive indicator? Or is there danger in asking a question like that?
Chris (12:46):
I used to think that you learned a lot from that sort of thing. I'm learning by getting to observe Amazon's senior hiring process. It's something that's very interesting. Over there at Amazon, as far as I can tell, they don't really want to know about what your team did, they want to know about you, they want to know what you did, because that's who they're hiring, they're not hiring your previous team, and they don't want anybody who got lucky and a lot of people get lucky in business because you can join something that succeeds and you had nothing to do with it. Maybe you were even harmful, who knows? And then you put that on your resume.
And do you ever see anybody in LinkedIn put in their profile, "I joined this company in 2016. It took me two and a half years to figure out what I was doing. By the time I figured it out I don't think I'd made much of a contribution but the company got sold for a lot of money." Nobody says that. It's a common true story, but nobody says it. Nobody comes right out.
So what they do at Amazon is they ask these probing questions. They go down, down, down into their leadership principles. They asked the many why's, what did you do? What did you do? What did you do? And they encourage you to talk about you, I, they want you to use I, and they want to find out a couple of things. One is, do you believe or have simpatico with their 14 or whatever this leadership principles, especially the big ones of customer obsession, of big thinking, of going deep?
You know, they've got these principles and they coach you, by the way. It's really interesting. The Amazon process, they coach you, it's not like a trick thing of figuring out, oh, did you get lucky and figure this out? And they say, look, this is how we hire, and this is what we're looking for. And then they probe like crazy in the interview process. And then, and did they make a quick decision?
So my point is, knowing about the person and how aligned they are with your principles is much more valuable than did they get lucky once or twice. And by the way, if you get lucky, once you might be hired into other situations where you get lucky. I know a kind of person who has come in to companies I've been at, whereas no longer there, and their job is essentially to auction the company off. They get a big carve out and the company sells no matter what because it has value, and they're just like, oh, they get another one of those. Well, what were you as CEO of three successful exits, really? Or were you the butcher? So it's really interesting if you look at that.
But let's take the more mundane hires. Not mundane, but the less scary ones. They're all scary. How do you get somebody on board who aligns with your mission? Well, they better be curious about your mission and they better dig it. They got to think your mission is worthwhile because they're going to work really hard at aligning with other people. Like at ConnectAndSell, our mission is to enable companies, to dominate markets by a conversation-first approach to business. So if you were to come to me, joining ConnectAndSell, and you really said, "You know, I don't believe in that conversation's first crap. What's that? I believe that what you should do is advertise like crazy on social media. And if you have to talk to somebody, I guess that's okay. But you know, so what, right?"
You might still love the idea of the connected self thing. Like I like this company it's growing, it's profitable, blah, blah, blah. I want to be part of it, and so I'll answer the questions in the interview and have it in a benign way and then we'll point to my previous successes and you'll hire me. And then I come on board and I don't even like the mission and I'll start kind of edging away from the mission, right? So hiring somebody who doesn't dig the mission, doesn't get the mission, isn't curious about the mission, there's a real problem. And the younger the company is, the scarier it is to hire somebody who believes in another approach. And I've been at many companies that have done this, I've made this mistake repeatedly, or I've participated in making this mistake, or you hired the person, and the more senior, the role, the worse whose actual beliefs don't align with the very purpose of your company's existence. You're hiring somebody who wishes you were dead. But what they really wish is you or someone else, right? That's a problem.
And then the other one that is, okay, the hiring process. So you get it all really, really good, and you have these probing interview questions and everybody's trained interview, and you do it like Amazon. It's the most awesome process I've ever seen in my life. I'm still in awe that I got to see a little chunk of it yesterday and it's like, wow, what an amazing thing they do over there. And say, you get that right.
Well, what if your company isn't designed for action, for achieving the mission? What if it's designed for parasites to grow and multiply in their power? Well that would be a problem because then if you get somebody who's got a little bit of parasite in them, they're going to rule the roost over time.
So here's something I've done. Two things I've done over time that most people would disagree with but I think it's worth folks thinking about it a little bit. One is I don't allow standing meetings except for a meeting that's called the forecast call. That's actually, it's a sales best practices call, but a regular meeting or once a week meeting that kind of thing, that people have to be at, those are outlawed in my world. And the thing I'm trying to avoid is the failure to sunset the regular meeting, to say the status meeting on a project.
So a new project starts up, we're going to, let's say, we're going to figure out whether we can enter a new market. So we spin up a little team to go look at that market. At ConnectAndSell, the way we would do that as we'd say, well, the market hypothesis is a list. We can make the list, we take a couple of people who are our best top of funnel colors, we come up with a candidate message in the form of a breakthrough script, we train those people up on the breakthrough script, our top of funnel people, we turn them loose with connect. So, in the script, they have 30 conversations a day, we listened carefully for what those conversations sound like, we look at the appointment setting rate, and if over the next two weeks or, however long it takes us to achieve conversations equal to the square root of the number of estimated participants in that market. If that number is above 5%, we look at that market and go, that's pretty good, otherwise not right.
Little project. Now, one thing to do is to keep the project short and by keeping it short, great things happen. Let's say you have a check-in meeting, once a week on that project. So now the project gets delayed for some reason or said, it takes a couple of months or whatever any project could go on for a while, the check-in meeting, the status meeting and the status reporting, say we have status reporting also. So somebody has to write up a little status report. How are we doing on our project? And they write that up and they publish it every week to the people on the project. Oh, but they also have to publish it to senior management, including people who are just kind of interested or who don't want to feel left out or whatever it happens to be. And so now a bunch of stuff starts to happen and encourages parasitism. One is the meeting itself becomes more important than the job, so whether we're making progress, it's also becomes easier, it's easier to attend a meeting than it is to accomplish the goal.
Why? Because attending a meeting just requires showing up at a meeting, whereas accomplishing the goal, it requires doing the unknown. After all, if it's known, we wouldn't have a project around it. Projects are only built to address the unknown, so the unknown is scary and uncertain, so why do scary and uncertain one when you can do the certain.
Thirdly, you offer an opportunity for somebody to play holier than thou. You were one minute late for the meeting, Corey, isn't punctuality important to you? So now things like punctuality, which of course are important, become more important than actually achieving the mission. So you get this thing that happens with standing meetings where officious parasitically inclined individuals. So maybe they might've just had that in their upbringing, that they're kind of more comfortable or when everything is super structured and mom and dad are in charge and that kind of stuff.
That meeting becomes a new entity, it's like having a new employee in your company, that meeting, is it like a demon employee that you didn't hire carefully, that you can't figure out how to fire. Like, how do you stop having this stupid bidding? So my approach is just to say, no, no, you can't put meetings on the calendar on a regular basis, you can hold a beating. The only people allowed to add a beating or people who are going to contribute, actually make something happen, but you can't have next week, same time, right? You and I have this particular meeting that we try to do on Tuesday mornings, but that meetings outside the company, not inside and we abandon it on a regular basis when we have other things to do. It just turns out.
So that's part of it is no standing meetings and this is considered anathema, right? I don't have an executive staff meeting that we have every week. We do try to get together and talk strategy, maybe on a more regular basis that I'm comfortable with, but that's about it. And so the second thing is, and this is really big. Email is the vector. Maybe even email is the medium in which parasites thrive. And it's for a very simple reason, actually for two reasons. One is, it's very easy to use email for politics, everybody knows this, I'm not saying anything new to anybody, right? Email is a wonderfully political instrument because you can copy people on an email or worse blind copy them if you're a well parasite, and you can do it for the purpose of pointing fingers, laying blame somewhere, setting somebody up for a fall, making it perfectly clear that you're doing your job, but maybe they're not doing theirs, whatever, right?
So all you have to do is copy a few of the right people, and then you have the right tone in an email, in a way you go and you look better and the other people look worse. So that's a common parasitic track and you see it all the time. Well, what can you do about that? Since email is necessary for internal communication, although some companies have banned it, so maybe they just are doing something so brilliant that all it can do is worship them and that, but they might replace it with something else. The other thing is text-based communication. It comes with a default emotional interpretation, that's negative. So when you read an email and its tone is neutral, your emotional reaction will be slightly negative. You will see, even a completely benign email that's just neutral as critical of you or potentially critical of you.
The reason for that is simple, because email can be used politically, it can be copied to people, secretly or openly. You're having a conversation with folks you haven't agreed to a conversation with as a recipient, that is they know that you're reading what it is that you're reading, and you're interpreting that simply. What do I think about this? But what do others think of me because of what's in this email.
And so... BDM that's right for political exploitation, and parasites operate primarily through intra inside the company politics. So my rule is simple. You're not allowed to copy somebody in an email unless you can prove, and the burden of proof is on you, that they needed that information to do their job. And if you were wondering about whether that's true or not, call them and ask whether they want to be copied on the email, tell them what it's about and see whether they want to be copied because they could say yes because they need that information to do their job, but it's your call as the email creator, and you're answerable to the company, that would be me. And I fire people on the first offense, I tell them this in the interview process...
Corey (24:44):
[crosstalk 00:24:44] ego-driven activities of parasites. So this is your first parasite theory of market dominance driven companies, is that you got to get the politics out of business, is what I hear you saying. And that is core with understanding that the alignment more so than even talent or capability, but alignment is key, right? Summarize that.
Chris (25:08):
Yeah. Alignment is key in terms of your hiring. Talent is key in terms of the contribution they're going to make, you can hire untalented people all day long, you get nothing. I see you really are trying to hire folks who are obviously talented, that's not actually very hard to figure out. Obvious, talent is obvious, but to completely avoid the parasites, you've got to check the alignment process carefully through your hiring process, and that means your interviews need to probe and go deep and they need to go deep into what was this person really like? And specifically, what have they done in the past? They have done that. What their teams have done? And does it hold up to scrutiny and how did they go about their business that doesn't hold up to scrutiny?
But on the design side, you can actually design a business to be robust against parasites by, from my standpoint, avoiding two things. One is where the parasites thrive in terms of I'll call it time, and the time that's dedicated to meetings, to standing meetings, which grows essentially to fill the calendar and grows to fill these status emails forever. You just design that out. So we don't have those standing meetings and we'll just live with that and miss a meeting needs to be called. Somebody can call they are meeting and that's one meeting, and then it's over. All meetings are sunsetted after their first occurrence, so that's kind of, yeah... And they live for one, whatever, one hour, half hour, one day, whatever.
And then the other is that the medium, we call it the medium in space and communication space that breeds parasites is email. And you simply forbid copying folks on emails, unless you can prove they needed the information to do their job. And no [inaudible 00:26:52] seeing if anybody was at a company, there's no reason ever to blind copy anybody within a company except, to advance your political agenda, secretly. So if you do that, you're dead meat. And that's kind of it though, those are two simple design principles.
In this episode, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation with the co-author of Outbound Sales, No Fluff, Ryan Reisert. Chris shares a view that is a bit unpopular but rings true. He states that "This pandemic will civilize our society. This is part of the civilization of our society by which matching the need to the capability of a solution it will be done without lying, tricking, and pushing. It's a big honesty bath that will cleanse a lot of us off." Corey dives into the concept of a repeatable process and leadership vs. luck and leadership. The latter option scales well. For a guide on how to come out of this restructured sales environment with everyone working from home, join Chris, Corey, and Ryan for your tips of the week. This Market Dominance Guys episode is called The Culling of the Non-Professionals.
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ConnectAndSell.
ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, https://ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
In this episode, Chris Beall and Corey Frank welcome co-author of Outbound Sales, No Fluff, and Sales Director, Ryan Reisert. In these uncertain times, sales pros are faced with waiting for the dust to settle, then try to regain their market or take this time to learn new skills and technologies.
There is a third option and that is to reframe conversations compassionately, patiently and gain control of your market. For a guide on how to come out of this restructured sales environment with everyone working from home, join Chris, Corey, and Ryan for your tips of the week. This episode is called #WFH Sales Pros - Wait, Learn, or Dominate Your Market.
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This channel is brought to you by ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations.
Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall talks with ConnectAndSell's Customer Success Manager, Donny Crawford drilling it down to the three reasons Sales Teams don't follow up. When we hire people to sell for us, whether it's to sell meetings or whether it's to sell deals, we tend to put them under a compensation regime that emphasizes this quarter. Need happens at this moment to match up with what you can provide. And in order to determine their need, you have to have a discovery conversation with them. And until you have a discovery conversation, you don't actually know whether they need your offering at all much.
As we know that mounts the pressure to meet numbers of calls but doesn't usually accomplish closing more deals. Learn how yes, no, not now affects our emotion tied to rejection and perception of rejection - the ability to keep our emotions in check. This is part one of a two-part session.
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ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Chris Beall (00:43):
Record away. Are we recording?
Corey Frank (00:45):
Oh, yeah, we're recording.
Chris Beall (00:46):
Fabulous, I'm so glad we're recording. I'll read your notes back to you.
Corey Frank (00:49):
There you go.
Chris Beall (00:50):
All right, so here's the thing about followups. When we hire people to sell for us, whether it's to sell meetings, or whether it's to sell deals, we tend to put them under a compensation regime that emphasizes this quarter's results. And then we say, well, next quarter's results will come as a result of work that you do now, which is pipeline building, and work that marketing does, which is bringing in new leads. But we don't tend to emphasize as management, the number one reason that you will do well in the next quarter, and the quarter after that, and the quarter after that. And it has to do with having multiple conversations, about one per quarter, with everybody who's relevant in your marketplace.
And the reason we need to do this, and this comes up to a fairly high level, is that in your market, say you've got a thousand folks in your market. In that market of a thousand, there's only going to be about 1 in 12 that are in market to take a meeting and potentially buy your product in this particular quarter in which you find yourself. And that's because the replacement cycle for almost every B2B product or service is about three years. That is, if I've just bought a CRM, I'm not looking to buy another CRM until at least three years have gone by. In that case, it might be more like five to seven. If I've just bought anything, any service whatsoever, I'm probably not in the market for that service again for about three years.
Now this varies by product, but the average is about three years, and three years have 12 quarters in them. And so, by math, only 1/12 of your market is coming into a part of their consideration cycle for your class of offering every quarter, 1/12 is coming into the consideration cycle every quarter. So that means you have two choices. You can either wait until they're ready, and talk to them for the first time, or you can talk to them about once a quarter and catch them in every quarter, in which they might be considering buying an offering like yours, or thinking about an offering like yours.
The former, which is wait until it's just the right time, has a problem. And the problem is, until you have a conversation with somebody ...
Corey Frank (03:21):
How do you know?
Chris Beall (03:21):
... you don't know when the right time is for them. So that comes back to a higher-level idea, which is, sales is actually a form of search. You don't make things happen in sales, you find opportunities in sales where somebody's need happens in this moment to match up with what you provide. And in order to determine their need, you have to have a discovery conversation with them. And until you have a discovery conversation, you don't actually know whether they need your offering at all, much less what they need it now.
So how do you get discovery conversations? You have calls to people in which you attempt to set a meeting, whose purpose is to educate them with regard to something in your market, preferably to offer them some information about something that is of economic value to them, which is about risk, time, or money, or something of emotional value, which might be about frustration or disappointment, or even fear, or something of strategic value, which is about where they're trying to go and what stepping stones they need to step on in order to get there. And in that discovery meeting, you're going to explore down those avenues. And if something resonates, then you're going to come up with next steps, and you're going to follow that process through to either a transaction, or a decision that they make either to go with a competitor or go with nobody to solve their problem.
And so, here you are as a sales rep, you're thrown into a situation where you were encouraged to focus on the current quarter, but your opportunities, 11 out of 12 of them, are in future quarters. And so, what are you going to do about that? Well, it turns out the easiest thing to do about that is simply to talk to every relevant person about once a quarter. And when they finally do take a meeting you know that their interest level is high enough that they're worth doing discovery with, and then you can go down the path with.
So that's the big reason to do followups is, unless we speak to everybody in our market once a quarter who's relevant, then we have a problem. And the problem is, when they finally are ready to buy and we haven't spoken to them, they're more likely to buy from somebody else. So in a sense, our education of anybody that we don't follow up with, when we're educating them now, but not following up layer, we're actually working for our competitor. Because we're doing the competitor's work of educating the market, everybody has to educate the market, and then we're leaving the business to the competitor when it's finally time for the prospect to buy.
So that's the big high-level reason. Now, why don't reps do it? Well, one they're not comped to do it. It's a speculative, [inaudible 00:06:12] investment time. They put their time in and they don't know if the investment's going to pay off. So that's part of it. So they're not sure that they should do it because they don't really understand the impact. And in particular, they don't look forward to quarters and ask, hey, if I'd follow it up with everybody from two quarters ago and talk to them the next quarter, except those that I disqualified and those that I actually held meetings with, what would my pipeline look like now?
Well, it'd look a lot richer because it would include folks who are getting closer to that point in time when they're ready to consider your product. They pile up, and as they pile up, more and more of them convert. But if we're not speaking with them, they don't pile up and therefore, they don't convert. So that's the why from the rep perspective is, if you look out two, three, four quarters, and you look at your paycheck, you'll find that your paycheck will be much, much bigger if the conversations that you're having with people in that quarter include more people who are ready to buy.
And by definition, if they're going to buy some time in the next three years, they're more likely to buy between now and three quarters from now than they are in the past. So that's just simple math, but it's hard to kind of comprehend, especially when you're being effectively paid on making quarterly numbers or even annual numbers, which don't tend to line up with how people buy. So part of it is management, not compensating in a way that makes sense, so the rep has got to take it on themselves to make the investment. The investment is of their time and they don't know the impact. Part of it is they don't know how. And by don't know how, I don't mean they don't know how to click the button and connect themselves. That's-
Corey Frank (08:04):
Sure. They need the mechanics, right?
Chris Beall (08:05):
... I want to talk to them. They know the mechanics, they might know the mechanics, but they're not in practice. We don't ever do anything regularly that we don't do regularly. It's like your rowing machine. If you are rowing every day, then rowing every day is easy. But when you never row, you don't go over there and start on the rowing machine. Starting things is hard, and continuing things is easy. That's why we tend not to start things because we don't like the commitment that comes from knowing that we'll then continue it. So-
Corey Frank (08:30):
And it's painful to start back up if you haven't been in the habit of doing it. And so you actually don't realize the benefits. You slowly are benefiting it over time because they start to actually come into play day after day after day. And that's the only way to realize how beneficial they are, is by actually experiencing them.
Corey Frank (10:00):
I like that quote that Sean [inaudible 00:10:04] put on one of your posts, and it was a quote from Blount. What was it? Basically, he said something about the 30 days, right? It's, the work you do in this next 30 days is actually going to pay off 90 days away from now, which is three months, which is so far in the future, but you got to do it now in order to really start benefiting from them 90 days out. And Blount was saying that in a particular way. He said, "I'm thinking about not just the next 30 days, but I'm thinking about what's happening in three months, in six months in nine months", that kind of thing.
Chris Beall (10:46):
... And it's up to management to sit with reps, or now get on a Zoom video with reps, and say, hey, let's look back and note, when you did follow up, how much good it did and how much money you made. And all they have to do is say that, and if the answer is there is none, it's because you didn't follow up. So let's start now. You have to plant a tree before you can harvest the fruit. So let's plant that tree now and then let's pay attention to it, and watch it grow and nurture it. And look back from that future, from that 90 days out 120 days, 150 days out, and ask, what does it look like back to this time? And we're likely to see good results. But they don't know how in that, if you don't do it all the time, you don't even recognize that this is a followup situation that should be taken advantage of.
The most common one is the short call or the hangup, or the angry exit. So most reps don't like that because of the third point, which is the psychology. They're offended. And Jeb Blount wrote a book about this, and it was called Objections. You've read it, and I've read it, and we all think it's important. And he basically says, take objections, and we teach them ... We treat them unconsciously, inevitably, as rejection. And until we learn to handle that reaction, we will end up walking away from opportunities because we don't have our emotions in control, and our emotions lead us away from optimal action.
The optimal action when somebody hangs up on you is to set a followup for a week out, and make a teleprompter that says, hi, so-and-so, when we spoke on this day, you didn't have time for a conversation. Is now a better time? And the fact that you were caring enough to call them back, the fact that you know, the date, the fact that you claim to have had a conversation with them, which they don't remember at all, right, will allow them to more easily open up and have a conversation with you. They might ask you a question. When did we speak? And you say, oh, I called you at 2:38, and you were really, really in a hurry, and it made sense to me. You just got off the phone really quickly. And so I think that ... what I want to talk to you about is I think just amazingly important for almost everybody's business, but I don't know if it's important for years. And then ...
Corey Frank (13:23):
And then let it go. And then let them determine whether they're going to hang up on you again or not, right?
Chris Beall (13:28):
Yeah. That's why I want to talk to you. Well, what is it that you offer? Oh, well, the way we like to say it is that, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough. And then you do your breakthrough. So that one is the one that's hardest. Matt Forbes-
Corey Frank (13:43):
Psychology [inaudible 00:13:44], yeah.
Chris Beall (13:44):
... and I spent a long, long set of lobster dinners one night to get him over this hump, because he just said, well, they hung up on me. They hung up. Nobody hangs up on me. I said, well, actually, a lot of people hang up on you, man. Because a lot of people hang up on everybody. So if you were advising somebody else and you were just looking at the business impact, how would you advise them? Oh, I'd have them call. Why? Well, because something good might happen. That's part of the why, but the rest of the why is, guess what? This is somebody that we know something about, that's incredibly valuable. This is somebody who answers their phone. And if [inaudible 00:14:26] folks who answer their phone, if we had known in advance they answer the phone without having to call them, we would've just called that list. But we don't.
Corey Frank (14:33):
Yeah, just that list. Exactly.
Chris Beall (14:36):
But we know that list. They coughed up that information to us answering the phone. And we don't know how often they answer the phone, but we know they answered it once, which is a lot more than zero times. So our psychology tells us, I've been rejected, I don't want to talk to somebody who rejected me. The fact is, they made an objection. They didn't care to talk with you, they didn't have time, or for whatever reason. And they objected strongly enough that they hung up on you. And so, if you can take that objection and say, that's fantastic. And this is the key to the psychology. When somebody hangs up on you, non sarcastically, you need to say to yourself, fantastic. This is somebody that I know answers the phone.
I'm going to talk to them again, and I'm going to talk to them about a week from now and see how it goes. So that's open-minded, and then you put in the teleprompter that thing I just said, which is, when we spoke on this date, you didn't have time for a conversation. All the other ones compared to that one psychologically are super easy because you had a further conversation. However, there's another psychology element. And this comes back to don't know how and don't know why, which is, when somebody says something to you that is any other objection that is not indicating to you definitely that they're intrinsically disqualified, you should talk to them next quarter. Because there's only four possibilities in a sales conversation, yes, no, not me, not now.
And we lump everything about not knowing that some prospect is disqualified into not now. Why? Because until we talk to them, we don't really know anything about them. So we can't talk to them in the past, we must therefore talk to them in the future. And that's the definition of not now. How far in the future? One quarter. Why? Because the basic unit of time for considering any new category of offering, not your offering, but any new category of offering, is about one quarter.
Corey Frank (16:51):
It's happening quarterly, right? Yeah.
Chris Beall (16:54):
Yeah. You're going to apply something, you're going to consider it within a quarter. So put it out one quarter. Don't think, put it out there. And that's another thing is don't think. And then, write a teleprompter that says, when we spoke on this date, you said whatever, and I'm curious about whatever. And that's it.
Corey Frank (16:54):
That's it.
Chris Beall (17:18):
And then you let the conversation flow. So that's a big part of the psychology is, you don't want to do what you don't know how to do, and if you don't really know how to do it, you really don't want to do it, especially if your emotions are involved in a negative way. And so you need a ledge, as Jeb Blount calls it, an emotional ledge to cling to when the objection comes that feels like rejection. The worst one is the hangup. So your ledge is a word or two that you say to yourself or you say out loud. Don't say it to them, they're [inaudible 00:17:55]. But you say it out loud, listen to yourself say it, and set the followup. So what I say is, fantastic, just exactly like that.
Corey Frank (18:05):
A fat person answers the phone.
Chris Beall (18:08):
[inaudible 00:18:08] person answered the phone. I'm going to talk to him again next week. And that's your ledge. And you need that ledge the same way that you need something to say to yourself. Say you're weightlifting, and you're to the last rep that you can do before failure. You need to encourage yourself at point, right? It doesn't happen by itself. That weight doesn't jump up off your chest, or wherever you're trying to get it all by itself. This is the one that you're going to have to push. Until then it's like, eh, no biggie, right? And this is why we have spotters, so when we lift ... because we might [inaudible 00:18:46]. We may [inaudible 00:18:48].
Corey Frank (18:47):
That's our managers. That's our managers making sure we keep doing it.
Chris Beall (18:50):
Exactly. Exactly. Managers spot this when we drop the weight on her chest, and somebody needs to help come get it off. But in general, we should be able to talk for ourselves and get that weight up one more time. And you know, we need self talk, and the self talk needs to be completely routine, set in the right tone of voice, very positive. And by the way, it has to specify why it's positive. Because when we're talking to ourselves, it's just like we're talking to a prospect. If we don't say why, they don't believe us. So if we don't say why to ourselves, we don't believe ourselves. Fantastic, you're somebody who answers the phone. I'm going to talk to them again next quarter.
Corey Frank (19:33):
I love that. I love that.
Chris Beall (19:36):
You're done. So that's kind of the idea. Now why do people believe that their followups can be done manually more effectively than ConnectAndSell? They believe that for two reasons. One is they feel like they need to prep for the followup. What was the last conversation about? What do I need to think about before I talk to this person? They have to ready themselves. And there's some truth to that, but you're going to make a trade off, and that is, say it took 22 dials on average to get somebody on your list on the phone. Now you've got somebody who answers the phone. So your answers the phone list is now down to a [inaudible 00:20:15], right?
So they don't always answer the phone, you don't know. So say your new dial to connect for that list is, it takes 12 dials. So now here's the trade off. If it takes 12 dials, still 12 dials can navigate to failure 11 times. Your mood is going to be pretty poor by the time you finally get somebody. It's still going to be a surprise because you don't expect to talk to them. So now you're going to have a different problem, which is, your preparation didn't prepare you for anything but leaving a voicemail. And leaving a voicemail is a one-shot thing. You can't leave voicemails over and over and over for somebody just because you had one conversation with them a quarter ago. You didn't earn that many voicemails.
So you have another psychology problem and a performance problem ahead of you if you decide to manually call. You won't be ready for the live conversation when it happens. And that's a serious problem. So what to do about that? Well, take the other side of the bet, which is, if I could talk to somebody on my followup list, and now it's going to take two minutes instead of four minutes. So that's kind of nice, like a little reward. It's faster. And I know what to say, it's right there in my teleprompter. All I have to manage is my attitude, my mood. But I always have to manage my attitude, in both cases.
So instead of peaking for the big conversation that doesn't happen, the big conversation that doesn't happen, the big conversation that doesn't happen, I don't have to peak at all. I can just relax and know that my teleprompter's going to tell me what to say, and I'm going to say it. And that's it. So it's a trade off, and that trade off has got to be explicitly made by the rep. So then, now I know why I shouldn't do it manually because I still have a 1 in 12 chance or one in eight chance, or whatever, and I'm not going to be as good. And by the way, it's going to cost me half an hour, and half an hour is a lot more than two minutes. So what could I have done with those 28 minutes? Well, I could've talked to four more people.
Corey Frank (22:17):
Talked to more people, exactly.
Chris Beall (22:18):
I could've talked to four more people, given that sales is search, I have to talk to people. So if I talk to more people per day, that's good. My followup list lets me talk to more people per day, which lets me search more of this space for someone who has or might have the problem that my company offers a solution for.
By any measure, you can confidently claim that the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team is the world’s most successful team in the world. Famed for starting any game with their intimidating black jerseys and dramatic and culturally symbolic Haka – which is a traditional, Maori warrior challenge to the playing opposition, they have amassed a track record that is truly unequaled by any other sporting team. In more than a century of playing – they started in 1903 - the All Blacks have won almost 75% of their 580 plus matches in history. It is often said that the All Blacks remember their defeats more than their victories!
They accomplish this domination despite New Zealand having a population of only about 4 1/2 million people with their financial and player resources being dwarfed by the likes of other nations who compete at a high level like England, France, Australia, and South Africa.
They truly punch above their weight class and make every match, every player, and every training session count.
And just to show you that domination in your market does not have to equate to inflated egos or the proverbial “spiking of the football,” the All Blacks continue to enjoy enormous global success with their grounded sense of humility and character. And one of the most dramatic illustrations of this was at the end of the 2015 rugby world cup when New Zealand soundly beat Australia. At the end of the match Sonny Bill Williams, one of the All Blacks best players, gave his winning gold medal to a young boy named Charlie Line. Charlie had snuck onto the field at the end of the match to celebrate and was soon swarmed by security guards. Feeling sympathy young fan, Sonny stepped in and promptly gave his hard-earned medal to young Charlie - a kid he had never met before. He later said, 'Rather than have the medal hanging up and collecting dust at home, it’s going to be hanging around that young fella’s neck and he can tell that story for a long time to come!” The players on his market-dominant team are driven not to become merely a good All Black but a GREAT All Black.
----more----
And in this week’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Connect and Sell’s broken down version of their own Sonny Bill Williams, my co-host Chris Beall, takes us on a logic filled journey of how Market Domination happens on an exponential level...and NOT in a linear fashion. The All Blacks clearly recruited, trained, and play their competition in exactly such a manner and it has shown results for 116 years.
So welcome to the Market Dominance Guys and this week’s episode, “Would it help if I perform a Haka before my cold calls?"
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:33):
By any measure, you can confidently claim that the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team are the world's most successful sports organization in the world and famed for starting any game with their intimidating black jerseys and their dramatic and cultural symbolic haka, which is a traditional Maori warrior challenge to the plain opposition, they have amassed a track record that is truly unequaled by any other team in sport. And in more than a century of playing, they started in 1903 by the way, the All Blacks have won almost 75% of their 580+ matches in history. It's often said that the All Blacks remember their defeats more than their actual victories. And they accomplish this domination despite New Zealand only having a population of about 4.5 million people. With their financial and limited player resources being dwarfed by England, and France, and Australia, and South Africa, and so many others, they truly punch above their weight class and make every match, and every player, and every training session count.
And just to show you that domination in your market does not have to equate to inflated egos or the proverbial spiking of the football against your opponent, the All Blacks continue to enjoy enormous global success with their grounded sense of humility and character. And one of the most dramatic illustrations of this was at the end of the 2015 Rugby World Cup when New Zealand soundly beat Australia. And at the end of the match, Sonny Bill Williams, one of the All Blacks best players, gave his winning gold medal to a young boy named Charlie Line. You see Charlie had snuck onto the field at the end of the match to celebrate with his team and was soon swarmed by security guards. Feeling sympathy for the young fan, Sonny stepped in very quickly and promptly gave his hard-earned medal to the young Charlie, a kid he had never met before. He later said, "Rather than have the medal hanging up and collecting dust at home, it's going to be hanging around that young fella's neck and he can tell that story for a long time to come."
The players on his market dominant team are driven, not to become merely a good All Black, but a great All Black. And in this week episode of the Market Dominance Guys, ConnectAndSell's broken down version of their own Sonny Bill Williams, my co-host Chris Beall, takes us on a logic field journey of how market dominance happens on an exponential level and not in a linear fashion. The All Blacks clearly recruited, and trained, and played their competition in exactly such a manner of exponential growth and it has shown results for 116 years. So, welcome to the Market Dominance Guys, in this week's episode entitled, Would it Help if I Perform a Haka Before My Cold Calls?
Chris Beall (03:58):
Markets work by a process that says if you win one, your opponent is weaker across all future games you're going to play. When you win two, your opponent is a weaker yet. Why? Because you have two references and they have zero. When you have three, they're weaker yet. It's harder for them to get their first one. And then, they've got to go to the margin. It's like being a stallion controlling a harem of mares. The other stallions, the guys who don't have a harem, are out on the outside. They get an occasional make a fall here or there. You're dominating the market. Why? Because the mares like to be around the guys dominating mares, that's why. It's safe for them. It's a good play. And market dominance works like that. Market dominance works non-linearly and yet sales compensation, sales plans, business plans, all this stuff are linear.
They miss the main point. The main point is not to go, "Oh, we're going to have this growth that goes like this because our activities go like this." It's, "Oh, it gets easier, lower risk, cheaper, faster; the faster we go at the beginning and our denominator is time."
Corey Frank (05:22):
So, if you had... and this is a conversation for another time too, is redesigning the comp plan for the future, the sales comp plan, the sales leadership comp plan, the CEO's comp plan. What I hear you saying is that it should be designed more or less from what we were talking about earlier about the myopia that most folks have when they start a company about their own numbers, their own goals, and instead, more of globalist perspective on compensated on their penetration for market share.
Chris Beall (05:57):
Yes.
Corey Frank (05:58):
That will inherently help the individual, the organization hit its goals, but if you're not setting your comp plans out, your incentive plans based off of market dominance, you're living in your own world when there's other visitors in your own universe and you choose not to accept it.
Chris Beall (06:16):
Yeah. You're simply hoping that somebody doesn't go faster than you within your market.
Corey Frank (06:21):
That's a great point [crosstalk 00:06:22].
Chris Beall (06:22):
It's a capturing lockups. Hope truly is your strategy, if you execute a standard go-to-market. All standard go-to-markets are based simply on the hope that somebody else doesn't get in there and go faster than you. Because it's a run away. If they win, they win. If they start to win, unless they blow it, they're going to win. And so, what should you compensate for early? Logo capture, referenceable accounts. So, your hunter should be compensated for capturing logos and your customer success people should be compensated for turning those logos into referenceable accounts. And you need to be objective about both of those. And by the way, your pricing model should be designed to capture logos. And your financing plan is a consequence of the application of that logo capturing pricing model applied to your market.
So, once you go out and you figure out how many... say you're doing this with the phone, how many dials does it take to get a meeting in this market? How many meetings does it take to get a net new opportunity in this market? Right? How does that really work in our market? "Oh, look, now I have those conversion numbers. I can take those numbers and say, these are the worst case. This is my early case. This is only going to get better. It's going to get easier because I'm going to have my referenceable customers." Applied time to referenceability from first engagement. And what are the issues around referenceability? Am I addressing all of the issues around referenceability or hoping somebody else addresses some? So, at ConnectAndSell, for instance, we made a serious error of omission in our own go-to-market. We said, "Well, certainly it's obvious that there's a big factor," which is when somebody's using ConnectAndSell and we've amped up their number of dials and therefore the number of conversations, "Surely they will be able to handle those conversations and do as well with them as they do with their current conversations."
Well, first of all, we found out they weren't having enough current conversations [inaudible 00:08:26] to know how they're doing. Secondly, we found out, "Oh, their messaging is terrible." Thirdly, we found out there was a huge talent spread between the top and the bottom, which suddenly was material. The best reps were actually producing at a rate that would allow market dominance to take place with no problem whatsoever. But unfortunately, most of the pool of reps was not doing that or anything; we call them the zeros. You've been through this with me. Why do we have the zeros? Why do we tolerate the zeros? And so we went through a process of... it took years, by the way, we were so dumb at it, of learning the ecosystem, our customers, the trainers, the books, the online information, this desire of people to be better. All that's done enough.
It turns out we got to bite the bullet and do it. We did something radical. We said, "Okay, if that's needed, it's needed in order to get referenceable customers for the acceleration effective ConnectAndSell, not for something else, therefore we're going to provide messaging workshops, which I personally do. Why do I do those? Because I'm really not trying to get their message correct. I'm trying to get their management to decide that this was worth managing too. So, I have to get a mindset change almost like a religious conversion place. In management, where they say, "Oh, I get it a cold call that works from a foundation of recognizing that the starting point is fear. And I've got to turn fear into trust and trust into curiosity and curiosity into commitment and commitment into action. Once I know that, and I believe it, then what the words are and how the words are said means something to me as a business and now I'll manage to it and I won't be tolerant of drift."
That's actually why I do the messaging workshop; is to get management to the point where they'll work with us. So, I'm trying to create a piece of the ecosystem... management that works as a piece of our infrastructure for their market dominance, because if they don't take that point of view, the alternative, which we've learned the hard way, is the refs.
Corey Frank (10:41):
How often do you do those?
Chris Beall (10:43):
I do an average of two a day, 2.5 a day. So, I'm manufacturing converts. I normally get three to four people on these, sometimes more, but 10 people a day. So, it's about three, 4,000 people a year who are going through this process of going from, "I think I know what a cold call is or what it's all about, how the dynamics work," to, "I have a completely different view of that whole process and I get that it's... I could be under my control and I could use it as the spear point for market dominance."
Corey Frank (11:19):
Can you invite me to the next one that you do?
Chris Beall (11:22):
Sure, absolutely. I can also give you tons of recordings.
Corey Frank (11:26):
Oh, yeah, I'd love to- [crosstalk 00:11:27].
Yeah, sure that'd be great.
Chris Beall (11:28):
Yeah, we could take one of those recordings and take it apart and anonymize it. Just edit it down and let that be probably four or five episodes.
Corey Frank (11:40):
Well, that's what I have on here is I have part one and part two, the messaging workshop podcast in that or four parts. Jocko just did an incredible podcast with probably... You all hear war stories and you hear folks who are in precarious situations and got out the nick of time and the Huey lands and they're hanging on to the rift of the skiff as they're flying away. And then Jocko had a four-part... He took his podcast divided into four parts. So, it's about five hours with this incredible guy named John Stryker Meyer. And Stryker, or Tilt as they call him, was in covert operation in Laos.
So, much of what he experienced he couldn't communicate until recently. But those stories are just cliffhangers and the hours fly by. And I imagine a messaging workshop that is pertinent to a lot of the data and the cold cognition data that you talk about and now to see how it comes into place, like you had said to prevent drift. So, you don't just employ a technology, drop it off and then pop smoke, and then get out of there. There is a fair amount of training on the why, not just a what and that training on the why is as critical as the, what otherwise drift will occur; your math won't work, right? You're going to fill up your dataset.
Chris Beall (13:08):
Exactly. It's got to be polluted with performance numbers that are coincidental, not driven.
Corey Frank (13:16):
That's great.
Chris Beall (13:17):
Sometimes you get lucky, right? The blind pig and all that.
Corey Frank (13:21):
Yeah and you start falling in love with chance. And you assume that chance, with no statistical validity, is the new normal is the [crosstalk 00:13:30] path
Chris Beall (13:30):
I love that phrase, "You start falling in love with chance." I believe the entire sales profession is fundamentally in love with chance. That's why they celebrate wins. In our company when somebody closes a deal and there's a win and there's all this jumping around, congratulations. First of all, I noticed that the congratulations always go to the sales person, not the customer success person who was actually on the ground [crosstalk 00:13:55] in the test garage making it happen.
And secondly, I noticed that I never say anything about it. Because to me the wins are the lucky outcomes from the thing that really counts, which is, "Did you push the button? Did you have the conversations? Did you convert those into meetings? Did you eat the false positives and do that with grace and in an uncomplaining way?" Because they have to be there and we should do a whole session on just false positives, the importance of false positives; why you must have them, why you must not try to get rid of them.
In fact, I'll jump onto that for just a moment. This is the single biggest fallacy in the entire world of sales. I was talking to somebody who really knows the stuff. The other day, I was talking to Roy Raanani the big exit conference. And we're just standing there in the hall, kind of catching up and we're talking about qualifying in a cold call. And he said something about how the good rep qualifies in the cold call. And I said, "Roy, if you qualify in the cold call, you destroy the integrity of your list." And he said, "how's that?" I said, "Well, the list has a certain quality associated with it." If you decide to change that quality, say you have 10 reps and each one is qualifying.
Each one has a little bit different idea of qualifying and then the emotional state of the prospect is different because you've ambushed them. So, some are more or less ready for those qualifying questions. Some will tell you the truth and some won't. So, you have this huge amount of variety you've just introduced in a process. And meanwhile, one step downstream in discovery, you have a hundred percent fidelity for qualification.
So, you jumped the gun and tried to qualify with variety of inputs, with variety of circumstances, with variety of processors. And what you've done is you've effectively made your original list, which had one set of queries or one set of processes to make it. And you're now effectively turned it at random into 10 or 50 or a hundred different lists of which the quality is completely unknown because you weren't patient enough to wait for the step of a process where you actually can qualify this designed for qualification and you've done it because you want to manage the emotional state of your sales rep of your account executive, but they don't have to do the company's work. They can only do their work. And you need to remind your folks, "There's a reason we pay you a base salary to do the company's work."
It's not like a welfare state. You don't get a base salary because, "Well, people need money to live off," you have a base salary because we are paying you, Dear account executive to do the company's work and one of the most important things we need to do is we need to assess the quality of our list because our list is the expression of our understanding of our market. And if we don't understand how well we're expressing an understanding of our market in the form of this list, we can never improve our list. All we can do is celebrate luck.
Corey Frank (17:07):
So, if I have a house file of 2.5 million, but I'm not able to articulate any demographic, SIT persona data in that 2.5 million, on prow that I have a house file of 2.5 million, when really it's just noise, it's garbage, it's names; it's not a list. You just say, "what is a list?" A list truly is... I like that. Your list is an understanding of your market.
Chris Beall (18:39):
It's a hypothesis and the processing list is simple. What you're trying to do is to get elements of the list... the people who are on the list, into a process where they can be qualified or disqualified. And if they're qualified, there'll be interested in moving forward... By the very nature of it; if they're qualified and you have something of value, it's not very hard to move them forward. And discovery is where we can qualify because of the trust relationship. That's different. When you ambush somebody, they don't trust you. They fear you. When they fear you, they won't tell you the truth. They'll tell you whatever it takes to make you go away. So, qualifying questions fundamentally can't work in a reliable way in an ambush conversation. Therefore, we should not use an ambush conversation to qualify. Unless qualifying is unimportant, if it's unimportant and we should do it all the time.
Corey Frank (19:34):
But most sales managers would say... and I'm sure you had this conversation, right? Devil's advocate and the hallway is, "Listen, Chris, I understand that I may tarnish my list, but they were interested and they were open. They were receptive. They wanted to. They asked me questions about the product and they showed interest enough where I could venture in the cold call, into the discovery and have that blended into one sit-down session. Why is that so wrong?"
Chris Beall (20:06):
That's a different error or action. So, that error is the error of trying to hold the entire discovery conversation by a quick transition from ambush to a mutual agreement, that's really bad. There's the flavor of it though, which is to go from ambush to quick qualified, "Let me ask you three qualifying questions. Oh, Just to make sure the meeting's great, right?" Well, I'm making an assumption. My assumption is you're going to tell me the truth. Now, there is a place you can pull it off right after they accept the meeting and they put it in their calendar.
You're actually on a ledge where you can explore that safely, if you're really good at it. But the fact is, it's pointless. And the reason it's pointless is you still getting quality information relative to what you would get in discovery. So, take it into discovery and be consistent. There's a rule in manufacturing. I don't ever split a process between two workstations; one of which feeds another. I execute a process for the workstation, I produce an intermediate output and that output, with known characteristics, goes to the next workstation in my assembly line. I don't say, "Oh, wait, I have a few minutes. I know the next station is supposed to be the one that stamps the head flat. But I got a minute. I'll go grab a hammer and whack it a few times and see if it works." You don't make stuff like that. You don't do things in manufacturing because I have a minute, because I happened to have that part in hand, you do it with [crosstalk 00:21:36] the machines that's designed to do it.
Corey Frank (21:37):
But there's this insecurity that I'm going to elongate the sales cycle when I don't necessarily need to.
Chris Beall (21:44):
Yeah, you are. False positives in all manufacturing processes. False positives are a requirement. They're a mathematical requirement because at every step of the process, you're gaining information. So, you can't pretend rationally that you must've had that information before. When I make the list there's information I don't have. When I invite somebody through a five sentence process to come to a discovery meeting, I learn one thing: are they interested enough to come to the discovery meeting? I manufacture that one piece of information, which is actually pretty valuable because 95% of the list isn't interested and won't attend the meeting. So, now I've got this amazing 20 to 1 improvement. I don't really need to make it like 20.3 to 1. I got my 20 to 1. Is there going to be some stuff in there that we'll discover won't move forward the next step? Absolutely. Should there be? There must be false positive.
Corey Frank (22:43):
[inaudible 00:22:43] market. So, this is good stuff. This is another topic I just wrote down there. Are you saying that in most situations, B2B software selling products, it doesn't have to be... the truck, a client of yours is a good example. But in B2B is that I should never do... When I'm doing cold calling, I should never have a one call, one discovery call process.
Chris Beall (23:11):
Exactly.
Corey Frank (23:11):
Yes, I need to do in order to have developed that fear into trust and move that flywheel, as we talked about before.
Chris Beall (23:22):
Exactly. The point is, process at each step what that step is designed to process and produce outputs from one step to another, that within the boundaries of what you need to know about that output; its characteristics, most of the time, you're within some set of parameters. You make it ostensive. Keep your opinion out of it. Taking a meeting is objective. Having an opinion about whether it's a great meeting or not that's going to happen, is not objective. So, when a rep says, "I had a great meeting," I go, "That's nice. Did you get a test drive?" "Well, no. They said they had to go back and talk to somebody."
Like, I had a meeting today and you would have listened to that and gone, "What a great meeting." Anybody would say it was a great meeting, "Wow. That guy's got... he answered all the questions, they moved in their understanding, they seem to have a need, they express with a tone of voice that indicates they're going to go forward." That meeting produced nothing because it didn't produce a test drive, which is what the discovery process is designed to do. So, now the process is going into one of its alternative forms which is, "They're going to get back to me. I failed as a sales person to get the next step." But if they come back now, that meeting, after the fact became a great meeting. Why? Because it produced a test. That's it. Everything needs to be objective, as you go down, opinions don't need to apply. No opinion needs to come into the process. I don't know why sales managers listen to the opinion of their reps on any subject whatsoever. It's of no value.
Chop your process up into pieces that produce intermediate outputs that are completely objective and have to do with the prospect's action, not your response to what they said.
Corey Frank (25:21):
The subjective nature needs to be in the presentation; in the pitch. The objective has been ironclad since the manufacturing age about what that equals.
Chris Beall (25:31):
And the manufacturing revolution was built on a few great concepts. One of which is, push quality upstream. My vendors must... my suppliers must deliver to me stuff that's of high enough quality that I don't have to inspect it. That's the objective standard. I can use what they deliver to my dock without inspection. How do I discover that? I don't discover it by inspection. I discover it by looking at yields.
Federer, Nadal, Serena, Martina, McEnroe, Borg, Court, Navratilova…a roster of some of the best tennis players the world has ever known.
But add one more name…Esther Vergeer to that list. Because she may actually be the most dominant and successful tennis player that you have never heard of. She won 148 career titles, 48 Grand Slam titles in singles and doubles, 23 year-end championships and seven gold medals.
And she did it from a wheelchair.
Esther Vergeer has used a wheelchair since she was 8, when an operation to correct hemorrhaging around her spinal cord left her paraplegic. So she took up tennis and shortly began to string together a list of titles that would be the envy of the tennis and sports world.
From 2003 till retiring in 2013, Esther didn’t lose a single game. Not even one bad day. In these ten years, she had won 120 consecutive tournaments that amounted to 470 consecutive matches. And over the course of all these matches, she lost only 18 sets and was pushed to a match point only once.
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Richard Krajicek, the 1996 Wimbledon champion, called her "perhaps the most successful sportsperson of all time." And with a record like hers, it’s tough to disagree.
And surviving in your market…especially in today’s uncertain and volatile markets with the world’s challenges of the coronavirus means taking a lesson from Esther on how she approached her training…and why she thrived and won.
It’s not about the 10X rule or playing full-tilt…it’s simply about 1%.
Can you be 1% better than the market, your competition, and yourself?
In this week’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris takes on through the math of this 1% and all the preparation, thoughts, and rationale behind some of the shots you need to take to survive and thrive in today’s business climate. From a defensive lob to buy time, to a blistering cross-court forehand, there’s a shot for every situation. And dominance, as Esther knows very well, doesn’t start with doubling your competitor’s headcount or raising 5X the capital, it starts with focusing on the simple 1%. That approach – with math on your side – is more than enough.
So welcome to the Market Dominance Guys and this week’s episode, “You only live once, but you get to serve twice.”
The Market Dominance Guys are produced and sponsored by:
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:34):
Federer, Nadal, Serena, Martina, McEnroe, Borg, Court, Navratilova, a roster of some of the best tennis players the world has ever known. But I would add one more name to that esteemed list. Her name is Esther Vergeer because she may actually be the most dominant and successful tennis player that you may never have heard of. She won 148 career titles, 48 Grand Slam in singles and in doubles and a 23 year in championships to go along with her seven gold medals. And she did it all from a wheelchair. You see Esther Vergeer used a wheelchair since she was eight years old when an operation to correct some hemorrhaging around her spinal cord left her a paraplegic. So she took up tennis shortly afterwards as a little girl and began to string together a list of titles that would be the envy of the tennis and of the sports world, from 2003 to retiring in 2013, Esther didn't lose a single game, not even one bad day.
And in those 10 years, she won an impressive 120 consecutive tournaments that amounted to an unbelievable 470 consecutive matches. And over the course of all these matches, she lost only 18 sets and was pushed to a match point only once. Richard Krajicek, the 1996 Wimbledon champ called her perhaps the most successful sports person of all time. And with a record like Esther's, it's tough to really disagree. And surviving in your market, especially in today's uncertain and volatile markets with the world's challenges or the Corona virus means taking a lesson from Esther on how she approached her training in why she thrived and why she won. You see, it's not about the 10X Rule or playing full tilt at all times. It's simply about 1%. Can you be 1% better than the market or 1% better than your competition or 1% better than yourself.
And in this week's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris takes us on some of the math of this 1% and all the preparation and thoughts and rationale, behind the shots you need to take to survive and thrive in today's really challenging business climate from a defensive lob, to buy some time, to a blistering cross-court forehand there's a shot for every situation in tennis and in every situation in business, and dominance like Esther knows very well, doesn't start with doubling your competitors head count or raising 5X the capital it starts with focusing on the simple 1% that you can do. And that approach with math on your side as Chris will show us is more than enough. So welcome to the Market Dominance Guys in this week's episode entitled, 'You only live once, but you get to serve twice.'
Well, the answer to your deeper question is, how do others measure their success or lack thereof in their first two or three years or starting a business? They only measure their success against themselves. Right? Most of the time.
Chris Beall (04:05):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (04:06):
And maybe their Alexa rank or who knows whatever it is, any goofy arbitrary marketing stats. And I don't start out of the gates, knowing where the goal line is, oftentimes. I do only, in respect to what my financials are that I gave to the board.
Chris Beall (04:24):
Yep.
Corey Frank (04:25):
That's the goal line, that's a fore goal line. That's not the real goal line. Right? And that's what I think what's so powerful about what your premise is here. Is why isn't people asking about this? Is why are they being so myopic about their own business or about their own goals? As opposed to missing an entire part of the equation, which is what is the market telling you, what your goals really should be?
You may pat yourself on the back for hitting 12 and a half percent growth for the year and throwing off 10%. When the reality is that you have three or four or five other competitors. Right? That are actively taking market share that you are missing out on because you were so focused on yourself versus the market as a whole.
Chris Beall (05:11):
Yeah, that's interesting. I saw a presentation the other day. I think it was at the Sage... Big exit conference that basically said the only thing that counts, it wasn't the big exit conference it was actually an Alliance of CEOs meeting. And I have to look up who the guy is, but he made a really strong point, which is relative growth, growth rates relative to the competitors for the same customers, which means the same market are ultimately what determines valuation and that's it. Because [crosstalk 00:05:45] there's a compounding effect,
Corey Frank (05:47):
Your cohorts versus their cohorts.
Chris Beall (05:49):
Exactly. Exactly, because it's a zero-sum game. That's actually something that I brought out and I'm trying to figure out to do with this stuff. I have two, maybe three long, long, long recordings that I did solo while I'm trotting around. I took a 17 mile run the other day in Seattle and recorded this almost the entire run I recorded.
Corey Frank (06:14):
Oh that's awesome.
Chris Beall (06:15):
Some stuff. Right? And what I was trying to do was to start at the beginning of the book and get to the real fundamentals. And I didn't know what they were so they had to evolve as I was trotting along. This wasn't an exposition. This was an exploration. But what came out of the exploration was a core concept that we haven't hit on yet, and it's the concept of... Or maybe we have, but I really went deep on it.
It's like, this is why this stuff works so to speak or why almost everything doesn't work. Then I made the distinction between two different kinds of games, the games like tennis and chess that are pure zero-sum games. And if you're a little bit better than your opponent, you make them a little bit worse. If I'm better than you or you're better than me, let's have you be better than me at tennis. Not in that some general sense. We're going to go skill by skill. So your service percentage is 1% higher. Your service placement is 1% better. Your serve speed is 1% higher. You're getting the ball in play is 1% higher on a return. Your ability to hit the down the line forehand...
Chris Beall (08:32):
A, 100 matches. You're going to win 98 of them. I'm going to win two. And the reason is your 1% make me worse. Because when you hit that down the line forehand, now I have to actually get the ball back with my backhand. And if my backhand is whatever it is X. Right? You just made it a little bit worse because I've got to chase this thing down. So you've made me worse by being a tiny bit better. And then over time, what happens is I get worse. I recognize that I've got to compete and so now I try to do things that I'm not really very good at. I must. Right? Desperation sets in. And making your competitors desperate. So that's why it's such a great signal in the marketplace when a competitor tries to underprice you, it tells you that you're winning. It tells you that you've forced them into a position where you should... Whatever you're doing, keep doing that because your 1% or 2% or whatever that's causing them to lose is causing them to become desperate.
And the unit is really interesting too. I think tennis is the best example. I think the entire world of tennis is exactly like business. So a couple of players dominate the grand slams. They are just dominant. Right? If you go back over the last 20 years and you list winners of grand slam tournaments on the numbers that they've won, it goes like Federer a million, Nadal a million, nobody. Right? Occasional freak of nature. And then you go back and ask the root cause. Federer injured, Nidal [inaudible 00:10:12] Federer getting divorced. Whatever it happens to be. Right? It's always that the guy who is 1% better, who is probably really only 1% better is now for whatever reason, temporarily not 1% better. And you run into a little lucky draw. You find yourself as the US Open Champion, but you're never going to do it again. In golf it's very different.
The other players have no impact on you whatsoever other than if you get behind, then last nine holes of Sunday, you might start to do desperate things. That's the only place that converges. Golf's not a zero sum game. Everybody can score. Everybody has that the course is the course. Yeah, morning might be a little easier, the afternoon wind or something else like that. But the course is the course. But in tennis we play competitively and we play a lot of points. That's again, where it's like sales. Sales we play a lot of points. We have a lot of meetings. We have a lot of conversations. We have a lot of opportunities to choose our shot. Am I going to go after this one or this one? We can allocate our time the same way it is in tennis.
Knowing I'm running down a Fort in my forehand corner, going to the right, I have three categories of shots I can choose from. That's like I have three different kinds of prospects I can go on. I can try to hit that down the line, passing shot. I can try to put something deep in the corner, cross court my safest shot if my opponent's staying back. Because if I think I've got to recover and get back to the center of the court, I want time. And I want the longest possible distance on the other side of the net. And I want the lowest point of the net. That combination says hit this cross court shot. Or if my opponent's coming in, I recognize that situation. And I might decide, Hey I'm too far out of position to do anything, but hit a little defensive lob.
So I make my choice. That's like choosing what prospects do I go after in the marketplace. It's very, very similar and my chances of success depend on the kind of prospect for that [inaudible 00:12:16] I can choose to go after the big whale and see if I can take some share with one deal. I can say, no, I'm a little bit out of position. I'll go and do this easier mid-market play where they've already expressed some interest or I can hit the defensive lob, I can just live off my inbounds. See what happens if I go after my inbounds for awhile, but I had my choices. Right? But if the other guy's a tiny bit better than me, my choices keep shrinking. His choices keep growing. And over time, and it's not the accumulation of points. It's the fact that we get two points. They're called matches where that's the market where we win or lose.
And once we've won the match, it's over. We have the position we move forward in the tournament, the other guys out. So when we dominate a market, we move forward. We get to go try to dominate another... And when we lose, it's bad, because now we got to go enter another tournament, we have to go figure out what's wrong with our game, we have to decide if we want to keep playing professional tennis or become a coach or a commentator. This actually what happens with businesses. Right? All these other options open up in the face of failure. But that tiny fraction of being better when it's just amped and ramped allows dominance not sometimes, but effectively every time. And that's why professional tennis records look like they do. They don't look like anything else in the world. It's not the tournaments that are won that's interesting.
It's the match records. If you look at the match records of Federer, of Nadal, those kinds of people, of Serena Williams, their match records are absurd. If you took those match records into golf, it being nutty. Tiger Woods at this point would have run 130 majors, but you can't do that in golf because you can't make the other person worse. That's the deep math behind this. The linear math and therefore what do I need to do? Is actually a consequence of how markets behave. That's like, what do I need to do in order to win this tennis match? Well, I sure better get my first serve in. That would be a bad idea not to get my first serve in, but it's got to have pace in placement, but it doesn't have to be perfect because I'm at a huge disadvantage if I don't get my first serve in.
The number one thing that causes folks to lose [inaudible 00:14:45] you lose your serve because your percentage of first serves is too low. It's actually a flow rate. It's how many first serves do I get in per unit point that I play? It's like a conversion rate. So I have to do that. I have no choice. I can't go to zero. When somebody says the quality versus quantity thing, I always think, well, wait a second, if you were playing tennis, are you saying the quality of your service has to be so high you'd be willing to accept the probability of actually having it happen to go to zero. And then you're going to sit on your quality [inaudible 00:15:19] of the one perfect serve that you didn't make. Zero is a bad number, man you multiply it by other numbers you get, zero. You have to actually have volume because if you don't have volume, you have nothing statistical going on at all. You're just relying on luck. Without volume all we have is luck.
Corey Frank (15:41):
If you have volume without skill, you have the [inaudible 00:15:45] suck. And so that's a good topic for another time as well.
Chris Beall (15:50):
Yes. That's the pity pat serve. Right? Even though you're better off with the pity pet serve than you are with the perfect serve that never went in.
Corey Frank (15:58):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (15:58):
Some percentage of those, your opponent is not going to be able to do well. Just because they have to execute now, and their execution has some probability to failure, but there's somewhere in there where it's enough. Enough in a market is I have discovery meetings with 60% of the market over two years. Three years, it's like three sets. It's like that's what's going on, is I got three sets. I got to do something in those three sets. What do I have to do? Well, I know one thing I have to do, I've got to engage in real points that are played out so that if I'm better, I have a shot. If I'm not better, I got to find out sooner rather than later.
Cause I got to go get my coach to go to the practice court and we got to get some film going. We've got to find out where is it that I'm 1% less where I need to be 1% better? That's really what I'm looking for. So the insight from thinking this through and talking to myself about it was the deep math is very non-linear. The linear math is I need to talk to 60% discovery meetings. How do I do that? Well, I have to have a certain number of conversations, 20 in order to get a discovery meeting. Okay. Well the math behind that is linear. Oh, I have to have a certain number of dials, navigated dials to get a conversation. So I know roughly if I take 400 and I multiply it by 60% of my market, that's approximately how many dials I'm going to have to have in order to get all those discovery meetings.
That's just linear. Right? Anybody can do that math. That's third grade math. I multiply a number of times a number. And then I take that number and multiply it times another number I'm done. That's how many fully navigated dials I need? How long will take? Well, now I have a choice. How do I do it? I can do it with a telephone. Okay. So take that number and divide it by 42. That tells me how many man days I'm going to need. I can do it with ConnectandSell. Take that number and divide it by a 1,000. Now I know how many man days I need. That's it. I mean, there isn't anything more to the math. We're done with all the math. It's not even deep math. The deep math is in the runaway process. An avalanche can start with a pebble. Small, small thing that you can do.
I once started at an avalanche accidentally, which fortunately didn't hurt anybody. And it was doing something I shouldn't have been doing at the Monarch Ski area in Colorado. I went out of bounds on my cross country skis, way up high on the mountain that overlooks highway 50. And I'm out there on the slope and everything's nice and peaceful and quiet. I remember hearing a chickadee in the middle of winter. Chickadee, dee, dee. Mountain chickadee I thought, how peaceful. And then there was a sound. Kind of sounded like, I don't know... If you were to get kicked in the gut it sounded like that [inaudible 00:19:04] that sound, and it was just cup crystals underneath and breaking woods. There was a layer in the snow, probably about this deep that was made in these little domes they are made of ice. And they're very delicate and they're very beautiful and they're not very strong.
And when they start to collapse, all the ones around them feel it and they get weak and they collapse and then boom the whole slope goes down and then it fractures right below my skis. And I mean right below like two inches below my left ski, I'm basically right on that slope.
Corey Frank (19:35):
Oh.
Chris Beall (19:36):
And then this thing starts to happen. And by the time that thing is going, we have an airborne powder snow avalanche that covers some large amount of room. It's probably moving 120 miles an hour and it goes down covers highway 50. And thank God doesn't bury anybody. No cars at that moment. I'm up there going, Oh my God what have I done? Right. Well, what had I done? I had initiated a cascade. And in the world of mathematics, real life, there are cascades. Now then when you push a boulder off a cliff, it's unlikely to be alone when it gets to the bottom.
Other boulders will come with it because one dislodges two, two dislodge three. Nuclear fission works like that, it's a cascade. One atom splits, neutrons come out of it, they go poke themselves into other uranium atoms or plutonium or whatever you have. They make those two unstable one makes two the two are unstable and split. Oh, now I have four neutrons. And pah, pah, pah, pah. The next thing you know, a city is destroyed or you control it by absorbing some of them and but you're walking... That's why nuclear power is exciting. Right? Because you're always walking on the edge. Always walking on... It's like, "Oh, those control rods are in. But if they're in too far, it goes" and if they're out a little bit, it goes, like this. Sales... Itself isn't like this. Sales is highly linear.
Sales itself is a linear process. Or with my market. I talk to the market. I talk to individuals. I do it at some known flow rate. That flow rate is per whatever, per day. Anything that's per day is linear. Do I get more conversations tomorrow? Because I had more yesterday. Nope. I got to go get them afresh. Right? I turn the crank. It's like, if I were crushing grapes in order to make wine, I don't get to a point and say, "Hey, I crushed enough grapes yesterday. I don't need to crush any more today." Nope. Dammit the fruits still got to be crushed linearly. Right? And it goes through a linear process as I'm making wine. Linear, linear, linear. Until now, I've got all the juice and I destemmed it and done whatever else I need to do. And it sat for it's 12 hours or 24 hours, 32... However long it's got to sit in order to be like, "Oh, we're all happy. And we're all the same in here in uniform."
Then I add the yeast. That ain't linear. When I add the yeast market dominance occurs, the yeast dominates that market. Whatever other little organisms are in there trying to play the yeast goes, "No, I got a little quicker game here." Right? It knows how to make more yeast based on how much yeast is already can... Made by the making of yeast by the eating of the sugar. I know yeah there's a by-product called alcohol and a bunch of other things that come out of it, but it's a runaway. And if you watch that graph you know this is what people... Everybody uses the phrase exponential they have no idea what it means.
What it means is the more I have and the faster I'm going, the more I'm going to get and the faster I'm going to go without doing anything. That is it's built into the process itself, that it behaves like this. And nothing entails the [inaudible 00:22:50] not one thing that behaves like this, but market dominance behaves like this.
Corey Frank (22:58):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (22:58):
Market dominance is not the consequence of the linear acts and sales per se. It's a consequence of how markets work. Markets work by a process that says, "If you win one, your opponent is weaker across all future games you're going to play."
The earliest civilizations on earth developed between 4000 and 3000 BC when the rise of agriculture and trade allowed people to have surplus food and economic stability. Many people no longer had to practice farming which allowed for a diverse array of professions and interests to flourish in a relatively confined geographic area. The use of fire, the advent of the wheel, learning to domesticate animals, and come up with this cool thing to record progress called writing, all of these became milestones as we climbed the “civilization tree.
Later, in the colonial rush in the mid 16th century, the Western Europeans brought even newer technologies, ideas, plants, and animals that were new to the Americas and would transform peoples' lives – some not necessarily for the better: Things such as guns, iron tools, and weapons; But also Christianity and Roman law; sugarcane and wheat; horses and cattle all became hallmarks of a “civilized” society.
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But what about our sales profession? Can you say that Sales has tracked at the same arc as the rest of civilizations trademarks? After all, one can argue that our craft of sales hasn’t changed much in the past few thousand years. As our Market Dominance Sales historian, Chris Beall is fond of reminding us, Sales used to be an interaction among strangers at the crossroads between two people who likely would never see each other again. One may get miles away from the city after interacting with a salesperson only to release that the thing that they purchased doesn’t do what the salesperson said it would.
But there were no Amazon or Yelp reviews to post after a discouraging interaction. Only more fear and suspicion from that sales experience that, in turn, the next salesperson needed to overcome to secure a sale.
But today, in the Market Dominance Guys laboratory, we believe that Sales does indeed have a shot at civilizing the world. How? By forcing trust and sincerity to the forefront of how humans interact and conduct commerce. And they've never been there, says Chris. Sure, we had to have all sorts of societal mechanisms things like duels – we spoke in an earlier episode about the Colt 45 Peacemaker as an indispensable tool to keep and hold politeness and honor in check. Because, simply, if you weren't polite to another man, then you'd be challenged to a duel. And if you were in enough duels, the math would eventually play out that you're eventually going to be dead.
But in the current world, we have the anti-duel - we have the internet where no one can be impolite in business for long.
But it’s the B2B buyer who will actually challenge you to the duel in today’s world. The B2B buyer, because of their strong need to not get fired due to the information gap between buyers and sellers is motivated to get information real and true information. Nobody can (or should) ever be as educated as any salesperson simply because of the nature of specialization. But if you insult that sales prospect or you're insincere or untrustworthy or exaggerate - and you give them any reason not to trust you, they are going to “kill” you. And they have the easiest way in the world of killing you and it's got a great name: It's called ghosting. And Chris reminds us that they are not the one who becomes the ghost; YOU become the damn ghost because you're already dead to them!
So in this week’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, we learn why we're at the cusp of true importance for the role of sales in society today and need to understand that the “game” has to move on from being a mere primitive game and instead becomes be a sincere set of human intentioned actions based on universal principles. And the most universal of these is that somebody has to actually be part of the conversation at the point of fear. And if you can generate trust out of this fear, then you win as long as you don't blow it. So grab your Rosetta stone, your flint, and welcome to this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guys, The Rise and Fall of the Sales Empire.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 3 (00:34):
The earliest civilizations on earth developed between the years of 4000 and 3000 BC. When the rise of agriculture and trade allowed people to have surplus food and economic stability, many people no longer had to practice farming, which allowed for a diverse array of professions and interests to flourish in a relatively confined geographic area. The use of fire, the [inaudible 00:01:02] of the wheel, learning to domesticate animals, all these plus a really cool thing called writing to record their progress. All became milestones as we climbed the civilization tree. And later you could say in the colonial rush of the mid 16th century, the Western Europeans brought even newer technologies and ideas and plants and animals that were new to the Americas that would transform people's lives some as well, no, not necessarily for the better. Things such as guns are tools and weapons, but also Christianity and Roman law and sugarcane and horses and cattle all became hallmarks of what's called a civilized society.
But what about our sales profession? Can we say that sales has tracked at the same arc as the rest of civilizations' trademarks? After all one can probably argue that our craft of sales hasn't really changed much in the past few thousand years as our market-dominant sales historian, Chris Beall is fond of reminding us sales used to be an interaction among strangers at the crossroads. Between two people who would likely never see each other again, once the transaction was complete. One may get miles away from the city after interacting with a sales person only to realize that the thing that they purchased doesn't do what the sales person said it would. And what do you do? I mean, there's no Amazon or Yelp reviews to post at this point after such a discouraging interaction, only more fear and suspicion from that sales experience that in turn, the next salesperson they ran into, that salesperson needed to overcome all that trust distrust in that, that fear and suspicion to secure their sale.
But today in the market dominance guys' sales labs, we believe that sales does indeed have a shot at civilizing the world and how it would do this by forcing trust and sincerity to the forefront of how humans interact and conduct commerce. And they've really never been there, argues Chris, as you'll hear. Sure we've had all sorts of societal mechanism, things like duels. And we spoke in an earlier episode about the Colt 45 peacemaker as an indispensable tool to keep in hold politeness in honor and check because simply as you remember, if you weren't polite to another person, then you'd be challenged to a duel. And if you were in enough duels, the math would eventually work against you and you're eventually going to be dead or out of business. But the current world, we have the anti dual. We have the internet where no one can be polite, no business can be impolite for long and expect to still stay in business.
But it's the B2B buyer who will actually challenge you to the duals in today's world. The B2B buyer, because of their strong need to not get fired due to the information gap that they want between buyers and sellers, they're motivated to get information. Real and true and timely information. And nobody can or should with all the sales enablement, best practices that are out there today, no one should be as educated as any of your salespeople, simply because of the nature of specialization. But if you do insult that sales prospect or you're insincere or you're untrustworthy, or you exaggerate, and you give them any reason not to trust you, they are in essence, going to quote, kill you. And they have the easiest way in the world of killing you. And it's got a great name too. It's called ghosting.
And Chris reminds us that they are not the ones who become the ghost in that description. We become the damn ghost because we're already dead to them. So in this week's episode of the market dominance guys, we learn why we're at the cusp of true importance for the roles of sales in today's society. And to need to understand that the game has to move on from being a mere primitive game and instead become more of a sincere set of human intention actions based on universal principles. And the most universal of these probably is that somebody has to actually be part of the conversation at the point of fear, and springboard of fear. When you can generate trust out of that fear, then you're going to win as long as you don't blow it. So grab your Rosetta stone, grab your Flint and welcome to this week's episode, entitled the rise and fall of the sales empire.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
As an SDR, if I have an SDR team, my average handling time, my average call time per call should be a minute and a half-ish, maybe two minutes. If I have an SDR team that has more than a two minute average conversation, then I'm getting too deep in discovery and they're going too far down the funnel. And that's probably why my conversion rates are or were they are.
Chris Beal (06:46):
And your show rates are probably too high.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
And you show rates are too high. Yes.
Chris Beal (06:51):
What you try to do is, you want to get enough curiosity in order to get some energy coming towards you. You don't want that energy to be high enough to always get over the hump. And the reason isn't that you don't want it there, is that the process of getting there overspends the trust that you've had, and therefore yields an unreliable result. That as you ended up cherry picking and leaving a good part of the market for your competitors. As soon as you walk away from a situation that where they should have for their own good attended the discovery call, and you don't give them the chance to make that choice themselves, you've done work for your competitor.
You have actually introduced into that person's mind some new thinking about a problem. And now when your competitor shows up, they have an advantage. So if you want to work for your competitor overqualified during cold calls. You're spending-
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Overqualified [inaudible 00:07:41]. Yes.
Chris Beal (07:42):
You're spending money to work for your competitor at that point. You just don't know when they're going to harvest the result. Whereas if somebody doesn't attend to your meeting, they're not going to attend the other guy's meeting either. It's fine. Let it ripen. They will ripen and you'll get 60% of them over three years to attend your discovery calls. And then you own the market. It's not which 60%, but this is the other thing that's really funny. 40% will never attend your discovery calls. Great. That's just fine. That includes the ones you're talking to now. So the fact that you're talking to somebody other than that, you should do your best to get them sufficiently curious to commit the commitment is when they go to their calendar, commitment isn't is an action.
The action is the jump over to actually attending the discovery call. So there's four steps we do in a cold call. Three of the four steps we do in a follow-up call. So cold call. We do fear, fear to trust, trust to curiosity, curiosity to commitment, commitment represented as something on your calendar and my calendar. So, that's what we're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Fear to trust, trust to curiosity, curiosity commitment.
Chris Beal (08:55):
Yep. And that's, as far as we want to go in the cold call. The prospect may want to turn that into action, but the setup is bad for action because the trust isn't high enough. We need more trust. They got to qualify themselves further. By showing up at the meeting. The horse must approach me. I'm never going to chase the horse. The horse is always bigger than me. The horse can run away.
And even when it's back has to me, it can kick me. It's a bad place, right? They got stuff on both ends. I don't want any of it. I don't want [inaudible 00:09:27] to bite me. I don't want them to kick me. I don't want any of that. I want to live at another day because by the way, I'm just like every other big animal I have to be careful of myself. I got to make sure I stay, but so I wanted to generate this little sequence right on the cold call on the follow-up call or the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth conversation. I don't have to start anymore with the fear. There's no fear. I actually get to start with whatever trust I have in the bank account from before. Then I amplify that trust slightly by referring to the previous conversation. You're important. I remember when we spoke and what we talked about and what you said. A lot of you in there. We, includes you.
We includes you again. And what you said is just you. I'm kind of a little more trustworthy when you answered the phone, you were neutral. I remind you of the previous conversation, which I don't expect you to remember, but the reminding process should tells you that I care about. [inaudible 00:10:28] I remembered, [inaudible 00:10:29] I remember [inaudible 00:10:30] hearing act. That's why do Memorial services. Even the dead preferred to be remembered and this person is still alive. So then when we get into discovery, we're in a completely new world, because there's enough trust that they came to us, if we're really smart in discovery, we don't actually start spending that trust right off the bat, by asking interrogation style questions. We actually don't. First of all, we remind ourselves, what are the three things that this person is going to walk away with? Even if it's only one of the three that will be a value to them for the rest of their life, no matter if we ever do these things together.
Because that's what I sold them. I sold a meeting where they're going to walk away with something of value and it's not going to be a gift card. Somebody called me the other day and said, "what do you think Chris, if we gave out [inaudible 00:11:21] what if we gave out a gift card for attending the discovery meeting?" It's like, well, I don't know. Did you marry your wife or do you just like pay her on a regular basis? It kind of depends on what kind of relationship you want, but if you're going into business with somebody, because you're really going to help them over time, you probably marrying them. If you want to have a prostitution relationship with somebody, start with the gift card, but you better keep it up because if it takes a gift card to do one, it's going to take discounting [inaudible 00:11:56].
So I'd be ready. I'd put that in my budget, right? Lots of gift cards going down this road. But they trusted you enough to show up without a gift card or what if it is [inaudible 00:12:07] improve my show rate. You don't want an improve show rate from gift cards. You don't want that little speed bump in the way now they showed up. The best way to open, and we could have a whole section on discovery, the best way to open a discovery call is first to remind yourself the most important step on a discovery call is inside yourself.
It's like when I did that run on Sunday morning from here to Reno, the most important thing wasn't making sure my feet were taped up and making sure I had water in my backpack. And then I had enough bars to eat on the way and all that. Most important thing was the gut check, is to look inside myself and ask myself fairly seriously, is this an undertaking which has an unknown amount of effort, pain and uncertainty and maybe danger. 64 years old. I don't have a cardiologist. My friend Jim Haggard sent me a note, does your cardiologist approve of you cavorting around doing this? Right? And I had to answer my cardiologist, whoever he, or she might turn out to be in the future. [inaudible 00:13:16]
I have to be my own cardiologist. Right? So what if I was endangering myself? I'm endangering myself. What am I doing to the future of my kids? What am I doing to Helen? Who really kind of thinks it's right to live the rest of our mutual lives together in some long kind of way. So I had to do the gut check. That's what I do before every discovery call. I don't go research this person. I don't research their company. I check inside myself. I put in the sincerity dipstick. I want to know, do I sincerely believe that the odds are good. That whoever it is I'm meeting with has kind of learn something, in the economic realm, in the emotional realm and in the strategic realm, even just one of those three sufficient that it will be worth their 15 minutes, even if we never do business together. That's the key. That's the product.
So as an SDR, I need to know I'm selling that product and what those three things are. And those with three features of the product. I don't have to say them, but I have to know them. I have to believe them. And how often does anybody ever teach their SDRs the three things somebody is most likely to walk away from a discovery meeting with that will benefit them for the rest of their life and have nothing to do with buying our product.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
You're talking about the economic and emotional and strategic realm?
Chris Beal (14:33):
Yeah. Something you might learn. [crosstalk 00:14:35]. Does anybody think about teaching their SDRs the importance of believing that the meeting itself that they're selling has value independent of the product or is the meeting a stepping stone on the way to selling them a deal? In which case we know who it's for. It's not for them. It's for us. And as soon as we start selling for us, not for them, we're toast. That's a mistake Jesus wouldn't have made.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, that's right.
Chris Beal (15:01):
Right?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
That's right.
Chris Beal (15:03):
I mean, that's an error. That's an error of kind that is commonly made and it's made due to the ancient tradition of selling, which is sales was an interaction among strangers at the crossroads. You would never see each other again. So almost all sales in the ancient world were done where two roads came together. And therefore there was enough concentration of traffic that it was worth setting up your stall. And the salesperson always feigned sincerity and haggling became the order of the day. And all it was, was how desperate's your need, what am I willing to part with this for? I know my inventory and my ability to replenish it.
You don't know how much you're going to need. We're going to exploit the information asymmetry and send you on your way. And you're going to find out how bad the product was I sold you later. Three days camel ride out. Sales as a profession was built at the crossroads. There are no crossroads anymore. We don't say goodbye after the sale. The sale is the beginning. That's to say hello. So sales has exactly the opposite meaning now than it used to, but we hold the old traditions. Actually, if you think about Sandler, Sandler was a breakthrough approach that said, and remember it came about from door to door, I might see the person again. It's like, what if we did door to door in a way that allowed us to sell the same person again? That was the Sandler breakthrough.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah. I love Sandler. I think the school of sales, like for, this is a course, what you're talking about. And again, the sales theory, this unified field theory of sales is a new generation of how to sell with that I can't hide from you anymore. I'm on LinkedIn and even if I go from Cisco to Avaya and I try to call you again, I can pull up, "wait a minute. This motherfucker he tried to screw me at Cisco but now he's over here" and "oh, I see. Hey Chris, I see that. You're connected with John Mueller over here. Hey, listen, he called me again." "Oh, I remember that guy." So there is, like you said, there's no crossroads any longer where you're camel... There's, no camel ride that's long enough where it's too far to reach you again. So this concept of reputation, even in SDR, I get a cold call from an SDR. I can pull you up on LinkedIn and say, "listen, you've been there for a month. Your company's been in business for two years." The ability for me to get any information on your organization is so readily available. What do I have left?"
Chris Beal (17:29):
Right? Every STR has a story about how they came to believe.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
That's a good one.
Chris Beal (17:35):
That's a key. They have to have a story. If you want to cheat. And your company's been around, keep your SDRs and keep them because they believe in the mission. The most important people in the entire company to believe in the mission of the company, are the SDRs. When you look at your investment in employee development, you should be weighting your investment heavily in your SDRs', believing in the overall offering. And specifically that sincerity of overall mission, right? Alignment with the mission as a whole. And then specifically as a skill, very specific like point by point scale, they need to understand and therefore believe in the potential value of the meeting at it's feature level of benefit level, which is, what are the three things that somebody is likely to walk away with If they pay attention to the meeting?
Well, then they're all learners. So oddly enough, there's only one universal product now, which is value through learning. That's all there is. That's the first product. The ultimate, monkey paw. Right? The meeting itself is the ultimate monkey's paw. And it's the way to destroy or hurt the value of that meeting is to turn it into a sales meeting. In which case now the poor SDR has nothing to sell. As soon as the purpose of the meeting is to push somebody to a deal, the SDR no longer has anything to sell sincerely. And that's a broken value chain and broken value chains, open up gaps for competitors to walk in. And it's always the same, which is, it doesn't matter if it appears to be working for you. The question is, what if your competitor did it all the way? What if your competitor ran this program precisely? Because a small amount of competitive edge results in market domination,
Chris Beal (20:19):
Because the basic theory of market domination is, this is the new England Patriots approach to business, right? Why are they such a difficult team to deal with? Because they always play a long game. They play a long game. It's a multi season long game. And then within the season, it's a long game. And then this game itself is going to be played as a long game. They just play a long game in which small advantages accumulate over the game in order to resolve the high probabilities of outcomes, especially seasoned level outcomes and dynasty level outcomes. Folks who do that dominate markets. It's pretty simple really. Accumulate small advantages and build on them as a strategy because every advantage gives you a new place from which you can accumulate more advantage. It's not exactly hard to understand. It's very rare that you're Genghis Khan and you're the only guy with a bunch of people on horses. And everybody else [inaudible 00:21:11]
Speaker 4 (21:12):
[inaudible 00:21:12] Today that doesn't much anymore. You're right.
Chris Beal (21:14):
It doesn't. It's hard to be Genghis Khan now. So at some point, when we bring all this together and bring it all down to the big why, the big, why is market dominance without which we won't have survival. That's, what's so interesting. Our alternatives are attenuated and being attenuated more, which is [inaudible 00:21:32]. We just don't get to play that game anymore like we used to. I just talked to somebody, [inaudible 00:21:37] a company that sells to manufacturers. It's called a strategic pricing SPA. And what they sell to manufacturers is fascinating. They sell the benefits of raising your costs. And so if you're facing, especially if upcoming potential recession, we can increase your costs in a world where everybody is cost plus, and you [inaudible 00:22:00] sell effectively. Then your margins will go up.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Well, the math works. In the restaurant business, you see this all the time is that two schools of thought. My business is going down, it's Arizona, it's the summer, what do I do? I have Groupon happy hour specials, try to cut cost, which is the opposite of what you should do. Because my traffic, which is the constant is now down. I have to now have four times the level of traffic to make up. Versus if I just increased my prices with the same little folks that would make it up.
Chris Beal (22:32):
Right. And if you increase your cost a little bit, so your cost might be, for instance, what are you spending on how the restaurant presents itself the moment you walk in? So say in order to make your restaurant more attractive in Phoenix in the summer, what you do is you put, and it's on a street with a lot of other folks and say, you're the first one to go all Palm Springs. And you put some little mist sprinklers out there, and those things cost you 5,000 bucks to install. Your cost went up and therefore your prices can go up.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
So you're saying that costs go up to make the prices go up.
Chris Beal (23:12):
Yes. And it's very [inaudible 00:23:14] intuitive but if the volume flow is going to be similar or even down a little bit, a slight increase in cost in a competitive world where everybody's competing with each other, right? Manufacturers all competing with each other and distributors are the worst. So these guys first order they sell to distributors, right? And so that's their first product, but their second product goes to the manufacturers and says, "we're going to help your distributors, who you don't want to have, make more money. We're going to help them make more money because then they'll actually pay [inaudible 00:23:43]." so there's a hidden part of the equation, which is really how much money are you collecting dear manufacturer, not how much do you think you're selling volume wise and how much money are you making? So we're going to go, you give us your distributors. We're going to allow them to increase their costs so you can charge them more, by the way.
And as a result, their business is going to be more profitable. And it's like, whoa, it's mind blowing, but they take you through the numbers and you go, yes. But I asked him, what's so important about this for manufacturers. And he said it's simple. M&A is getting killed. The manufacturers have got to move into markets now through organic growth because it's getting too expensive to buy competence. And so now they're actually getting investments from private equity firms. The money's flowing the other way. They're the ones being invested in. Now they've got bosses, Oh my God, the bosses are impatient. And meanwhile, their way out the side door, so to speak, which is to buy another company to grow their business is being out competed by the private equity guys who don't have the pain of integration and have a huge amount of money because of the concentration.
The fact is the ultra consultation wealth and society now has made private equity super strong because at the margin, if I've got a ton of money, how am I going to put it to work? Well, some of it's going to go to work more as risk capital venture, some as less risky private equity and some over here where everybody else is competing, how do I get an edge? I'm going to choose a hedge fund or a private equity fund is going to help me out, right? I'm at least get [crosstalk 00:25:13]. You had this, this macro things happen in society, which is liquidity of information, power of technology, the ability to close loop on regulations of laws. What happens when you have money, you can buy boats. All that stuff has led to this bubbling up of money, into the smaller numerically, smaller set of people.
Those people have access to the whole market. One of the places they must put their money is where money is made, which is companies doing real work. That's called private equity. Private equity out competes corporates every day of the week, because money that doesn't have anything that it's beholding to except it's buy, sell value, is always more liquid than business, which means I have to buy your company and integrate it by operation somehow. So I can no longer as a manufacturer reliably play the market expansion game and buy the markets that I dominate. So now I must dominate them through organic growth, which means sales is no longer the old sales, not only in the crossroads sense, but in the disposal of inventory sense to keep my machine. Now it has a new role, which is to get me market so I can survive. I know I'm not surviving so well on the private equity guys, get to buy into me.
That means I'm not getting enough money from the market and I'm having to take their money. I know I'm not going to leave this for my kids unless I put a growth engine on it that's got [crosstalk 00:26:36] and that's why I built it in the first place. So I'm about to blow my 35, 40 years of legacy work on a change of circumstance. So I must learn to sell. And what got me is that the SPA guy said, "this is the theme in manufacturing now, is organic growth has become a requirement of business." And that's fascinating to me because it means that this unified field theory, like everything, it's got to have a place to apply it, right? So it's like nuclear energy was interesting in terms of scaring the living daylights out of people by dropping a couple of bombs and then freezing the world up for a while with regard to global oppression.
But what made it really wild was the fact that you could make electricity and the world needed a lot more electricity because factories run on it. 80% of all the electricity in the world is used to turn machines in factories to turn motors and nuclear energy is just one heck of a cool way to do it. Now I didn't [crosstalk 00:27:36] reputational issue and all that. But the reason that, that's [inaudible 00:27:39] in the fifties was not that we scared the living daylights of everybody and I managed to use it to Institute this cold war that froze up a bunch of latent, voluntary, aggressive power that would've gotten unleashed on the world. We would have, I'm sure would have had world war three by, I don't know, 1962, because Korea was an attempt at it to get it going. And it's like, no, we're all too scared.
We can't do that. Sorry. So that was a nice effect. But the real effect was you can manufacture electricity for nothing. And that's an amazing thing. Now, solar is the new nuclear because when the cost came down enough, you can manufacture electricity for nothing [crosstalk 00:28:18] solar [inaudible 00:28:20] solar is now like 32% of great Britain's total energy supply and was predicted at this point to be like 2%. Why? Because when the time comes, the time comes. When the time has come for a sales theory that addresses the problem of directed organic growth. It's a different business problem that you're solving with sales directed, organic growth must result in market dominance if it's going to increase survival. And so what do you base that on? What's got to be based on 100% reliables. It's like nuclear energy is 100% reliable. Statistically, whether it's made of uranium 235 or it's plutonium, either one statistically will behave exactly the same as you predict. That is I can't say I know this atom is going to fission, but I can say that I know the rate of fission.
That's going to be in this collection of atoms if they have neutrons of certain velocity. I can say that to a point [inaudible 00:29:26] decimal points. I can say how that's going to work. We need a unified theory of sales that tells us statistically, what's going to happen so that we can direct that energy beam that we can create with that level of certainty at a market. And oddly enough, the twin pillars of this thing are trust and sincerity. The thing I believe about all this is that sales finally, if the conditions continue to obtain, sales has a shot at civilizing the world by forcing trust and sincerity to the front of human interactions. And they've never been there. We had to have all sorts of societal mechanisms. Duels. We talked a little about Romeo and Juliet. How did we use to enforce even just politeness? Well, because if you weren't polite to a gentleman, then you'd be challenged to a duel.
And if you're in enough duels, you're going to be dead. They have to [inaudible 00:30:25] out of this now. Musicals, just to remind us of what that's like. Well, in the current world, we have the anti duel. We have the internet. Everybody can be impolite. Now the question is where do you have to go above politeness all the way to sincerity so you get trust? Only in sales. You can design products without sincerity. You can manufacture products without sincerity. You just have to be good, right? Technically good. You can assess need without sincerity. You can statistically analyze [inaudible 00:30:55] responses on the internet. You can do all this stuff without sincerity, but the B2B buyer because of their need to not get fired, because the information asymmetry between buyers and sellers that obtains now and will always obtain, no buyer can ever be as educated as any seller.
Impossible because of the nature of specialization. The B2B buyer is the guy who will challenge you to the duel in the modern society. The guy with the sword is the B2B buyer. And if you insult that person, you're insincere. You [inaudible 00:31:29] many reason not to trust you. They're going to kill you. And by the way, they have the easiest way in the world of killing you. It's got a great name. It's called ghosting you. We [crosstalk 00:31:39] say ghosting like they become a ghost. They don't become a ghost. You become the damn ghost because you're already dead to them.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
That's awesome. You're the ghost not them.
Chris Beal (31:49):
That's the big surround [inaudible 00:31:51] the unified field theory. Otherwise, it's unimportant, but it's actually, we're at the cusp of importance for the role of sales in society. And the game has to go from being a game, to being a sincere set of actions based on universal principles that have to also be true. And the most universal of them is, somebody is going to actually be able to start at fear. If you can make trust out of fear, you win. As long as you don't blow it, but you have to do it sincerely. And the rest of this is nothing more than how to make a nuclear reactor. Don't just pile up a bunch of uranium and hope for the best. It doesn't work out. There's only two States [inaudible 00:32:36] one is called meltdown and the other was called nothing. Warm. [crosstalk 00:32:42]
Can't make money off those little puppy [inaudible 00:32:43]. But if you can assemble the nuclear reactor, which you make up out of the pieces we've been talking about, you can actually go and... You can survive in a very, very tough world. So that's what [crosstalk 00:32:59] it's interesting and I don't know how we package all of this. It works but once we get the book together, it's going to be really interesting because I'm practicing now a 22 minute talk that I've now given at dinner. So I'm going to do a lot of dinners, [inaudible 00:33:14] breakfasts where people generate their own breakthrough script a little lighter. Like here's the basic theory, now let's do it. Right? because at breakfast time, people are capable of doing that kind of work. Dinnertime [inaudible 00:33:25] that work. All they can do is listen, then have a discussion and then see if they remember anything after all the alcohol. Right?
But the dinner speech, the idea is that it starts with an assumption that no one will challenge, which is market dominance is required for survival. All the reasons that we got there, they're very light, they're just touched on [inaudible 00:33:46]. Like, Oh yeah, because primarily, because the old way of doing it, which is M&A is being impinged upon by private equity. Everybody knows private equity has too much money for comfort. If you're a buyer of companies and you're not a private equity firm, they have too much money. They have too easy a job because they have to buy it. Kind of do a couple of little things and sell it, whereas you got to buy it integrated. So the price is higher for you and your costs are higher to get to the same point. And then you still don't have the option they had, which is just to sell it because you kind of ruin it.
It's overhead is the problem you're going to solve when you synergize it out. But you sell it, you have to sell it with the overhead because it's not a functioning company. Right. So that [inaudible 00:34:25] gone. That doesn't take long. That takes like a minute, minute and a half to get into it. And that's like, so what is the implication? And what does it all come down to? And the surprise answer, the first seven seconds of a cold call on the telephone. That's the surprise. And people get it. [Inaudible 00:34:42] Whoa. They don't know what to do with it but it's like, Whoa. And that's what I want out of this book because I want people going, Oh, and then there's a cookbook. You can actually do this. Yeah. And it's not easy.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
There's a Terrence Malick. I don't feel like him as a director and a writer, right. I think he's just genius. He did a movie a few years ago with Brad Pitt and this dynamic with his father and he did Thin Red Line. He's got a movie coming out in December about a Austrian saint who was conscientious objector in the Nazi army. And when the Catholic tradition became who's about to become a saint and is beatified and... But he has this habit in these movies to take the eye off of the... The camera off of the character and then move to something in nature and study it. And in this movie with Brad Pitt, it went from this dynamic with this father, the son, and changed to like 10 minutes of the big bang theory and the universe in its creation. And for some folks it's like way too esoteric, right?
And he just kind of had to study, it's like why? And it's going to the origin of, like you were saying, the origin of sales is that two strangers come against each other at this crossroads. And one wants something that the other has. And in order for survival, they both have to come to some sense of fairness and then go on their merry way. And because they're a stranger, they have to either fame this sincerity, or it has to be genuine. And I like what you're saying that really what we're talking about here is also this origin story of trust. And you think about all the things in technology, the tech stack, I can have 50 things in my tech and my marketing stack. I can have $40 per square foot, real estate overlooking Lake Travis in Austin, or overlooking the golden gate bridge. I can have Zig Ziglar, the reincarnation of himself come and be my Monday morning motivating spiritual guide. But when it comes down to is seven seconds with you and your voice and your tone. It's so human. It's so counterintuitive at that point, that the very definition of your ability to dominate your market in 2019 comes down to the very same thing that it came down to in 2019 BC.
Chris Beal (37:12):
Exactly. In the village, but not at the crossroads. That's what's so interesting. At the crossroads we fake it. In the village we can't because there's nowhere to go. And we're all in the village now. There's nowhere to go. [crosstalk 00:37:24] We're stuck in the village. So the question now becomes, how do you civilize a village with seven billion inhabitants? What is the repeatable requirement? The repeatable benefit, the repeatable principle to be applied that could civilize a world where that is essentially a village with seven billion inhabitants. And I believe the answer, oddly enough, it's not B to C. B to C sales doesn't do it. It's too transactional. It's too cold.
The irony is when I buy products for myself, I'm not risking very much. You have to have risk on the table to have tension and the fundamental risk that will remain in society for a long time is the risk to the individual decision maker buyer in business to business. And that risk ain't going anywhere. And it sets up the entire thing. The whole thing is set up from that. And from there, you can actually the rest of it, you can reason your way to, with no experience about anything, except for knowing one thing for this particular solution which is, human beings are afraid of human beings they can't see that they don't know. That's pretty obvious, but people tend not to think of as [inaudible 00:38:35] but it turns out to be what's important.
The United States may stake its claim as the first country to land on the moon but Russia can boast that it is the first country to drill the 2nd deepest man-made hole ever recorded here on Earth.
Since the early 1960s, scientists have attempted to drill down to the Earth's mantle. Why the mantle? Because we’re told that scientists only have a "reasonable" understanding of what it's made from, and how it works.
In 1970, Russia entered the race to dig. But unlike the Moon landing, Russia achieved more than the US. Over the next 20 years, a Russian team of scientists drilled down 40,230 feet into the Earth… That's 7.6 miles. The hole, known as the "Kola superdeep borehole," is only nine inches in diameter. Nearby residents around the dig have said they could hear souls screaming in hell coming from the depths as the team dug deeper and deeper. Take advice from the Market Dominance Guys, if you find yourself in a sales hole, stop digging.
----more----
But the drilling – and the screaming - stopped in 1992 when the temperatures below became too hot and the drill bits quickly melted one after another. In fact, temperatures reached 356 degrees before they had to cease operations. And, despite reaching such incredible depth, Russia still never got close to the mantle.
But for those of us in the sales profession, there is still a deeper hole here on earth that we dig. Everyday. We dig it in our own cold calls. It’s called the Trust Hole and it’s truly the deepest hole on earth if we fall into it. It is truly inescapable. And we fall into it with our prospects when we say we are only going to innocently tell them why we called…and then blow past the initial trust allotment they’ve given to us, further test it, and then finally abuse it by pitching them your entire presentation.
Vs simply building and investing the trust we have earned to get a Discovery Call.
So in this week's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris speaks of the cautionary tale that envelops us all too frequently on our cold calls. Because if you do the right thing and say the right thing on your initial cold call, you'll have some trust built in all of seven seconds. And if you do the right “next” thing, that trust will be converted to sufficient curiosity for them to take your Discovery meeting. If they are not interested in our initial pitch, the simple math of Market Dominance says to leave them alone…just come back later in your list cycle and restart the process. Don't attempt to squeeze any more from the call. Once you're out of trust, you're out of trust. There's no cash advance or check you can write to get more. Because you can never climb out of the trust hole for the rest of the relationship with that human being.
So put the hardhat on, tread lightly, and let’s start exploring this week’s episode entitled, “The first law of sales holes: "If you find yourself in one, stop digging!"
This episode is sponsored by ConnectAndSell as well as UncommonPro.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 3 (00:34):
The United States may stake its claim as the first country to land a man on the moon, but Russia can boast that it is the first country to drill the second deepest man-made hole ever recorded here on Earth. Since the early sixties, there has been more than just a space race. There has been a drill to the Earth's mantle boring race. And why the mantle? Because we're told that the scientists have only a reasonable understanding of what it's made from and how it works, and the scientific riches would enrich scientists for many years.
And so in 1970, Russia decided to fully enter this race to win, and they decided to dig and dig and dig as deep as they could. But unlike the moon landing, Russia achieved more than the U.S. ever did, because over the next 20 years, a Russian team of scientists drilled down to a depth of 40,230 feet. That's over seven and a half miles.
This hole, known as the Kola Superdeep Borehole, is only nine inches in diameter. But what's interesting is the nearby residents around the dig always said that they could hear the souls screaming in hell, coming from the depths as the team dug deeper and deeper.
But the drilling and the screaming stopped in 1992, finally, when the temperatures below as they drilled just became too hot because the drill bits melted one after another. In fact, the temperatures reached 356 degrees before they had to cease eventual operations. And despite reaching such an incredible depth, Russia still never got close to the elusive mantle.
But for those of us in the sales profession, there is still a deeper hole here on Earth that we dig every day, and we dig it in our own cold calls. It's called the trust hole, and it's truly the deepest hole on Earth if we fall into it. It is truly inescapable. We fall into it with our prospects when we say we are going to only innocently tell them why we've called. Then we blow past that initial trust allotment that they've given us and we test it further, and then we finally abuse it by doing what? Pitching them your entire sales presentation versus simply building and investing the trust that they've given us and earn it into a discovery call.
So, in this week's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris speaks of the cautionary tale that envelops all of us too frequently on our cold calls. Because if you do the right thing and say the right thing on your initial cold call, you'll have some trust built in all of seven seconds. We've talked about this before. And if you do the right next thing, that trust will be converted to sufficient curiosity for the prospect to take your discovery meeting.
And frankly, if they're not interested in our initial pitch, the simple math of market dominance says to leave them alone. Just come back later in your list cycle and restart the process. Don't attempt to squeeze any more trust from the call, because once you're out of trust, as Chris says, you're out of trust. There's no cash advance or check you can write to get any more because you can never climb out of the trust hole for the rest of the relationship with that particular human being.
So, put the hard hat on, tread lightly, and let's start exploring this week's episode entitled The First Law of Sales Holes. If you find yourself in one, stop digging.
Corey Frank (04:47):
So, Oren in Pitch Anything. He talks about four key components in any successful call that is memorable is having curiosity, humor, intrigue, and the most important one is tension. He postulates that most weak-minded sales people avert tension because of supplicative behavior, need for approval, want to be liked. Certainly you see that in the emails that you just talked about. And so are you postulating that email is not effective as a prospecting tool mainly because there are no stakes for the other person? There's no tension. I can create some intrigue and curiosity maybe a little bit, but I'm not involved in this process. So don't use emails. Two tablets coming down the mountain from Chris Beall, do not use emails from a cold perspective to generate your leads. You will not get to market dominance one email at a time.
Chris Beall (05:50):
And it's for two reasons. One is it is absolutely less effective than other approaches. And two is your competitor might choose to use tension. The real issue with market dominance is it's a relative thing. You've got to win before your competitor takes the market. I always call them your fiercest competitor. Whoever that is, is going to combine having the goods, having the will, and being smart enough to put together a plan of action and execute that plan of action. That competitor is your issue in terms of taking a market.
So now the question isn't might... So, here's a way that people commonly think of it. I send a bunch of emails out, and I have some hope for response rate. And I get responses either within my band of response rates I hope for or not, and I tune the emails until I get the response rate I want. And then I use those and I get some meetings, and I'm getting what feels like traction, right? I am getting traction.
So that's interesting. Of course, after a while I find that that gets harder and harder because I can send emails to everybody. And once I'm sending to everybody, then the ones who are going to reply, or if I've already replied and now I'm kind of... It's too fast, right? So for any market, I can saturate the communication part, the initial communication with email too easily, but that's not the real issue.
The real issue is my competitor might choose to do something that works, not just at the beginning and not just for those who are inherently curious and social or whatever. But it works in the general case. And that is something that starts with the tension of a fear relationship. If you choose to start with fear, you're in the driver's seat. As long as you know how to convert fear into trust. So if your competitor chooses to go down the fear route, because the ultimate tension is just to inject fear into the situation. Fear is the emotion that overrides all other emotions, ask anybody who's ever tried to jump out of an airplane. I did it a few weeks ago. Now, it didn't scare me, but my life background conditions me not to be afraid of stuff like that. It probably did scare me, but I don't recognize it. I don't actually-
Corey Frank (08:05):
Driving Ferraris, jumping out of airplanes, running up mountains.
Chris Beall (08:09):
Yeah. You can condition yourself to have a different kind of response envelope around stuff. My dad used to tell me, "Fear is incredibly valuable. It tells people what to stay away from so they can survive." And my counter-argument was, "Great. Love it in others. I'm going to substitute for fear, assessment, reason, and cold calculation. So that's going to be my fear." And I was very deliberate about it. I said, "I'm going to choose something else to do the work of fear, because I don't trust fear." My view was in the modern world, we're going to fear things that it doesn't make sense to fear. And if we're wise, we let fear play a role to create tension in a relationship that we can then resolve. All stories require attention. And if you think about story writing, and every deal has a story, every new customer relationship has a story, we start with somebody wants something.
Then we have to have some obstacle. Something is in the way of somebody getting something, right? But somebody wants something, we call that our hero in the story. And the things that get in the way we have a bunch of names for, but they're the challenges in which the plot of the story is that the hero is going to go through a series of adventures. And those adventures are going to ultimately result in either the hero getting what they want, those are the happy stories, or not, which are the tragedies, right? So Romeo and Juliet, we can work our way through that story. Somebody wanted something, and everybody ended up dead. That's why we call that a tragedy. Along the way they almost got it. In fact, they almost got it, and then un-got it, and then almost got it again.
And then damn, everybody was dead. All because of a little communication error. But very telling actually, when you think about it. They were in a situation where the way they lived was at the edge where fear could be reality. Because that was back when, as we saw in the opening of the play, someone gets killed. And they get killed just for saying something. That was back in those days when you could... The discipline of society was exercised at the tip of a sword among individuals. So it was a different world. We don't live in that world anymore.
So my choice, and frankly I think if you can pull it off, it's not easy to do by the way. But if you can pull off substituting for as much of your own fear, substituting reason, and testing that and getting help, having people give you good information, knowing how to get information. Knowing when you're going too fast and you need to slow down and think, knowing when it's time to act right now and you better do something because that's what reason tells you to do. Now sometimes reason actually creates urgency, which is something that folks often don't think. So if you want to dominate markets, you have to be the adult in the room.
And if you're the scared person who's just running around and going, "Oh my God, I'm not going to make my four, I'm not going to make my number. I might get fired," you can't dominate market. All you can do is get lucky a few times. And then eventually something's going to catch up. Whereas your opponent, a serious player who wants to dominate this market, who says, "I'm going to put fear to work for me. I'm going to let the fear that's inevitable in a cold call," not a cold email outreach. Not walking up to somebody to conference, by the way. There's no fear in that because you see the person, they're a visible stranger.
Corey Frank (11:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (11:31):
If a person walks up to you and they hold their hand up to shake your hand saying, "I'm unarmed," then we're good.
Corey Frank (11:31):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (11:39):
We don't fear that person. We may not like them. We may be thinking, "I've got something else to do." And so we can use a conference, for instance, in order to do useful things to advance our business. But we don't have the ultimate control position. The control position is to engender fear and the other person, and then resolve that fear as quickly as possible.
Corey Frank (12:03):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:03):
And it's a place from which you cannot lose, but you have to develop the skill in which to do it. And then you have to not blow it because you're going to take fear and turn it into trust. And the trust is a currency. As you spend trust, you don't get more of it. You have to keep building more. So you get a little bit of trust. And now what do you spend it on? You spend it on curiosity. And once you get curiosity, you've rolled the boulder off the cliff at that point. All boulders rolled off cliffs, get to the bottom. You just don't know what the path is going to be. That's why it's curiosity.
So now you got another problem. If you over-engineer. The next part, that is once the curiosity turns into discovery, you want to have a period of, "Okay, approach me now." That's why you want to set the meeting. This set the meeting, hold the meeting is so important compared to have the meeting in the ambush call. You can never climb out of the trust hole. For the rest of the relationship with that human being, you will never climb all the way out of the trust hole that you put yourself in, or the mistrust hole.
I always tell people, "It's pretty simple. If you do the right thing, you'll have some trust in seven seconds. If you do the right next thing, that trust will be converted to sufficient curiosity to take the meeting. If it isn't converted, leave them alone and come back later. Restart the process. Don't attempt to keep squeezing." Once you're out of trust, you're out of trust. There's nothing more to spend. There's no credit card that you can pull out and go, "Don't worry, I'll pay you back later. You can trust me later. I'm going to do something right now that'll make you not trust me. But it's okay, we'll get it back later when you see how wonderful my offer is." I don't care how wonderful your offer is.
Corey Frank (13:43):
But that's what happens, right? We're going to be rolling in trust when you take this 30 minute demo call for me that, "Hey, we have time right now. Let's just jump right into it."
Chris Beall (13:53):
Exactly, exactly. So you need to have the horse approach you before you try to put the bridle on it. You just have to have it come to you, and that means you need a separation. And you actually want things like, you want there not to be 100% show rate. That's actually your best qualifier. Your best qualifier really is, they have a declaration of a willingness to do something. But the intention to actually do it and overcome all those obstacles, then you have a new hero by the way.
The new hero is your prospect, and their journey is to come to visit your land, your world. They're going to come into your house, and you're going to share something with them. Hopefully something of value. You're going to teach them something that is going to help them understand their world economically. It's going to help them understand their world emotionally. And that's going to help them understand their world strategically. The three things that we need to be able to get help with in order to navigate through the world. You're going to give them that stuff, right? But they have to come into your house.
Chris Beall (15:50):
So they're going to your house, which is the discovery meeting. If they're not ready to come to your house, fabulous. We'll push the button for that 15 minutes and have more conversations. This notion that, "Oh my God, nobody showed a meeting. They no-showed a meeting." That's wonderful. That's great. The ones that no-showed are the ones you weren't going to move further with right now anyway. Now, call them back because maybe it was something that's just in their world that came up. And they're going to love you for calling them back and saying, "You know, we had this meeting on the calendar for the 15th at 8:00. Clearly something came up with you. I remember you said you were a morning person. How about if we do Friday? Can you go even earlier, maybe 6:30, 7:00?" Whatever it is, it's okay to do all that stuff.
It's also okay if they don't show. Qualification before discovery is an error, but there's one form of natural qualification you get for free without even having to work. Did they show up at the meeting or not? And being petulant about a no-show is ridiculous. You were offered a gift, they didn't show. That's a gift of time, and to be all pissed off about it as just to be a child.
Corey Frank (16:58):
I asked Burmeister, It's a common question I would ask when I was at Stormwind, was what's a good show rate? Or what's an acceptable no-show rate?
Chris Beall (17:09):
60% is a good show rate.
Corey Frank (17:11):
60%, so-
Chris Beall (17:12):
That's a good show rate.
Corey Frank (17:14):
So the son of man himself, Jesus used ConnectAndSell, it's impossible to get 80, 90, 100% show rate? It's just not possible?
Chris Beall (17:24):
It's wrong. It's possible to do it, but it's wrong.
Corey Frank (17:24):
That's a better word for that, it's wrong.
Chris Beall (17:30):
Jesus is a lot smarter than that.
Corey Frank (17:34):
That's great.
Chris Beall (17:36):
I mean, Jesus would have been so happy if 40% of all those who could've showed up, but weren't really going to take it seriously didn't show.
Corey Frank (17:43):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (17:45):
I mean, he had the same problem we have, right? There's only so much time on earth to get the job done. And we all have that problem.
Corey Frank (17:52):
It's funny. Maybe you planned this, Chris, is that he had three years to get to market dominance.
Chris Beall (17:58):
Maybe he planned it. Three years, as far as we can tell, is the replacement cycle for everything. If you're going to take up a new set of health habits, how we started this conversation, and you're really going to be able to say, "Okay, now I do things differently." So say you decide you're crazy and you decide to become a barefoot [inaudible 00:18:18] runner. The time during which you're going to actually stick to it if you're serious about it before you replace it with something else, probably about three years. If you go past three years, you're going to be really hard to sell to. But for the most part, we turn over our cars. We turn over our jobs. We turn over the system that we bought to do X, Y, and Z, which is the most part for selling. Whatever it is, our habits-
Corey Frank (17:58):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (18:44):
We turn them over about once every three years. And so if you want to dominate a market, you have to eat that cycle. That cycle is built into the market. It's not you, it's them.
Corey Frank (18:53):
Yep, I know.
Chris Beall (18:53):
Then you get the ones who are going to go today, the ones that are going to go at quarter from now, the ones who don't even need to meet up. You got to go through 12 [inaudible 00:18:59]. It's just the way life is. That's a fact of the world. And maybe your market's weird. People always tell me that markets are different. My market's different. The whole thing is going to be over in 12 months.
Corey Frank (19:09):
Really?
Chris Beall (19:10):
Show me some examples of where that happened, where you know all the facts. Where you actually know when they started, when you actually... Not the news stories, not the dressed up documentary, not the BS. How it actually went. Go back even to a [crosstalk 00:19:25].
Corey Frank (19:24):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (19:25):
One of the huge, huge successes. Look at the first three years. That's what it took. It takes three years, right? During that three years, you are going to manufacture trust over and over and over and over and over again. You don't ever get off the hook. You never get to go, "Oh, look, we're so good at this. We're 15 months in. We don't have to be in the trust manufacturing business anymore." Sorry, you got to keep manufacturing trust at a steady flow rate. The flow rate is represented as units. The unit is discovery calls held per unit time, or quarter or whatever, for folks are offensively in your target market, because that's what you're trying to dominate. And your target market is always identified based on publicly available information. That's competitive, because you and your competitors have access to the same publicly available information.
Corey Frank (20:16):
Yeah. And that is the unified field theory, as far as you're concerned, about dominated the market. The math works out.
Chris Beall (20:23):
The math is the math and the glue on` the hidden particle, the thing that... Like the discovery of quarks, right? Couldn't figure out how atoms worked until somebody finally came up with this crazy idea about quarks. And then the whole key to quarks is, well, what keeps them together anyway? Why don't protons just... As far as we can tell, protons will last the length of the universe, why don't decay? Well, they just have this peculiar relationship among the quarks. Which, it's like we're just going to play the same game back and forth. "Here, you get the blue out, and give it back to me. You get it." You know, they don't get bored on that game. Whereas everybody else occasionally they'll kind of slip on out and there'll be a decay that occurs and something will become too [crosstalk 00:21:05].
Corey Frank (21:05):
Right, right.
Chris Beall (21:05):
So yeah, the unified field theory is this. The essential fundamental particles, so to speak, of this entire thing is trust. And the certainty is fear. And so what you do is you trigger fear, manufacture trust, turn that into curiosity, turn the curiosity into commitment, the commitment into action. And you just run that cycle over and over and over. You run at the lowest cost you can, add as tight a target as you can. And this is the number one reason you must never qualify in a cold call, because you screw the whole thing up. When you qualify, you're saying, "My target market is not my target market. It's actually a subset of that, that I'm going to discover, but I'm not going to discover it during discovery. So I'm going to try to discover it when there's not an... I'm going to spend some of my trust currency to try to make this thing go away." Whereas all I really have to do is set the meeting and have them not show up. It's so simple.
Corey Frank (22:08):
So trigger fear to manufacture trust.
Chris Beall (22:12):
Yes.
Corey Frank (22:13):
And then-
Chris Beall (22:14):
Spend that trust on curiosity.
Corey Frank (22:17):
Spend that trust on curiosity, and repeat.
Chris Beall (22:20):
And then that curiosity becomes commitment, right? But not yet action. And then commitment becomes action. And there's attenuation rate on each one of those, right? The curiosity, it doesn't always become commitment. It only becomes commitment maybe 6% of the time, 7% of the time. For a whole bunch of reasons, right? You've just injected yourself into somebody else's life. Curiosity is actually relatively weak as a motivator, but it's the best we can do.
Corey Frank (22:50):
So trigger fear, manufacture trust, spend that trust on curiosity, and then hope manufacturer spark catalyze that curiosity to become commitment.
Chris Beall (23:02):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (23:03):
And that chemical reaction, curiosity becoming commitment, is probably very heavy on tone and language.
Chris Beall (23:12):
Yes.
Corey Frank (23:12):
The choice of my words, the pacing, the performance piece.
Chris Beall (23:12):
And luck.
Corey Frank (23:17):
And luck!
Chris Beall (23:18):
So once I, once I optimize, now I'm down to luck. Luck number one, timing. Am I going to get a meeting? Let's try this. So say somebody cold calls me on June 27th, 2020. I'm getting married on July 5th. Following that wedding, there are going to be two days probably in the penthouse over there at the hotel right across the water, which is where we're getting married. Then there's going to be a month in Iceland.
Corey Frank (23:53):
[crosstalk 00:23:53] Iceland! Oh that's fantastic.
Chris Beall (23:54):
Then there's going to be an additional month in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and the Shetlands. Then there's going to be three weeks in the Nordics. And then there's going to be two weeks on London's West end seeing plays. And then I'll consider a meeting. The pudding is, no matter how much curiosity you get out of me, I could be like [crosstalk 00:24:15]-
Corey Frank (24:14):
You're shut down until Thanksgiving, basically.
Chris Beall (24:16):
Shut down until Thanksgiving, and that's just luck on your part as the cold caller. And that's the real world. We don't know what somebody is available to do. And curiosity is very weak as a motivator. It's just the strongest motivator that we can find. And curiosity can be about economics, can be about making more money, not losing money, reducing risk. All economic concepts. It can be about emotions. It can be about reducing frustration or reducing fear. Very occasionally it can be about the emotion that we, quote, read. It can sometimes be about envy. But usually it's just frustration or fear. The twin emotions that we get to use in business regularly are frustration and fear. You're frustrated with the way things are going, or you're afraid of bad things going to happen. That's kind of it.
Corey Frank (25:05):
That's it. But you're saying Chris that because of this intersection, this confluence, this convergence of luck, timing, tone, choice of words. If I have that, and that is performing at a high level, I still can only expect to get one out of 12, one out of 13 proceeding to accepting a discovery call.
Chris Beall (25:27):
Yes, at the beginning.
Corey Frank (25:30):
At the beginning.
Chris Beall (25:30):
And that number gets better over time because I'm actually taking those out of the market and I'm pressing the remaining market into the remaining quarters. So the concentration goes up a little bit over time, and I'm also improving my approach slightly because now I'm talking to you for the second time. If I have an aggregated trust, I get to start from the trust position. I don't have to go through the whole fear bit. When I call you the second time and I say, "Corey, when we spoke on August 20th," all I have to do is say that. "When we spoke on August 20th, you said," whatever. You immediately trust me. Cause I'm not a stranger. You might not remember the conversation, but you have to make a decision now.
Corey Frank (25:30):
Yes.
Chris Beall (26:19):
I'm either a liar who's pretending that we spoke on August 20th, and that's way too specific. Only the greatest con-men in the world would ever say that, right? Or, wow, I'm actually not a stranger. This is why everything always comes... This is the weirdest math, right? The funnel is the concentration of effect on the first seven seconds of a cold call, because that's where you have the invisible stranger effect. Which guarantees fear, which allows you to make the move to trust within seven seconds. After that, don't blow it.
Corey Frank (26:57):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (26:57):
This is like fishing for a fish of unknown size and strength. And the strength of your line is always exactly the same. I'm fishing on seven pound test line. Okay, well if it's a big fish, I better let it run a little bit. The biggest fish is the one-on-one, take the meeting now.
Corey Frank (27:16):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (27:18):
So I have to adjust how much tension I put on the line, how hard I try to get them into the meeting, depending on how strong the fish is. And I don't know. So all I can do is ask the fish. "You going to come with me? Ooh, I guess not, catch you later." Right? So then you go catch them again. You play catch and release over and over and over.
Corey Frank (27:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (27:42):
This is what's ironic about it. The bulk of the market is captured through followup calls. Second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth conversations. But the key skill is the cold call because followup calls can't be executed until you have a cold call. And if the cold call isn't executed in a way that you leave them with the possibility of trust when you call them back in the follow-up and say, "Hey Corey, when we spoke on August 20th, you said that you were headed to whatever to do whatever."
Corey Frank (28:10):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (28:14):
"You didn't have time for the conversation with me." Even if you hang up on me, by the way, I'm going to say that. Because you didn't have time for a conversation, otherwise you would have talked to me. So this is the strange thing is cold calling itself only generates this very modest yield. If you generate 5% conversation of meeting in cold calls, you're doing really well. There's only eight and a half percent of the market's in play in any quarter anyway.
Corey Frank (28:37):
Oh right, right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (28:40):
Four and a quarter is halfway. So you're above 50%, and above 50%, you can dominate the market. But you have to persist because the market is not ready. They're not ready because your product's new or whatever, but they're also not ready because it takes three years for the market as a whole to consider a new offering because of the replacement cycle of existing solutions.
So you got to talk to people over and over. The skill required to have a second conversation is very modest. The skill required to execute the first seven seconds of a cold call is monumental. Huge. There's nothing easy about any part of it. The point of the call where, say it's... So I'll do the ConnectAndSell one because I'm familiar with it.
Corey Frank (29:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (29:20):
So I do the whole thing from scratch. I don't know if we've done this from scratch, but I'll do it from scratch.
Corey Frank (29:24):
That's good, that's good. Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (29:26):
So I say, I haven't heard your voice, it's a ConnectAndSell call. So I just have a beep in my ear.
Corey Frank (29:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Beall (29:31):
So I say, "Hey, this is Chris from ConnectAndSell. Corey, I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds, tell you why I call?" You're going to go-
Corey Frank (29:40):
Sure. Yeah, sure.
Chris Beall (29:43):
That's right. And I'm going to say, "Corey, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all. And the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available?" And you're going to say something along the lines of, if you're interested, "What, what are you talking about? Tell me more."
Corey Frank (30:07):
Yes, yeah. [crosstalk 00:30:09].
Chris Beall (30:10):
And I'm going to say, "You know Corey, we've learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this just isn't a fair setting to talk about something that's important. Are you a morning person? How's your Wednesday?"
Corey Frank (30:20):
But what is it? Is it X? Is it Y? Will folks try to come back to you a second time, or that's so strong of a response that most of the time they'll just say, "Okay. Yeah, I'll bite"?
Chris Beall (30:32):
Well, the reason for that response being worded like that is it makes two things perfectly clear. Remember when I told yo. I know I'm an interruption, I'm reminding you that I agree with you that I'm an interruption. And if you're trying to change this to a conversation about what it is that I'm offering, which is not what I told you I was willing to do, by the way. That wasn't the deal, the deal was I'd tell you why I called. The reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar, not to explain what we do. Now I'm telling you why I can't explain. I shouldn't explain what we do, it's wrong. It's ethically wrong. It's not fair. It's not fair to you and it's not fair to our offer because it's too important.
I'm establishing myself immediately as your peer. We're on the same page. We're looking to do the same thing, which is have whatever happens next be what should happen next. And certainly what's unfair shouldn't happen. So Chris Voss talks about the F-word, says you should almost never use it. And I agree with him because as soon as you imply that the other person's being unfair, the amount of reactants are going to get as crazy. But if you're saying, "If I were to do that, it would be unfair to you and to me." Then it's kind of okay.
Corey Frank (31:42):
So that's the proper way to use fair?
Chris Beall (31:45):
Yes.
Corey Frank (31:46):
Is in the potential negative connotation, the self-deprecating connotation versus fair enough, or does that sound fair?
Chris Beall (31:54):
Exactly. When you use it the other way, you're basically saying, you know what? I'm about to accuse you of being unethical.
Corey Frank (32:02):
Interesting.
Chris Beall (32:02):
Fairness is an ethical term, not a moral term. When you accuse somebody of being unethical, you're not saying, "Hey, you violated a moral." You're saying "You're a bad person."
Corey Frank (32:11):
So that's been in Vogue for a number of years. And now you're saying that it's time to retire that word.
Chris Beall (32:17):
Always has been, it's a very dangerous word to use. And it's used unskillfully a lot. When somebody says, "that's fair," think about when somebody says that to you. Whatever it is, they say, "that's fair." What are they really saying? They're not saying anything about fairness, right? They're saying "I'm going to withhold my assessment of what you said until it's convenient for me." They're refusing to engage with you at that point. When somebody says, "that's fair," that's simply, "I'm not ready to engage." And people say it all the time. When they say, "that's right", they're saying, "I'm ready to engage. We've now made progress, and this is something we both agree on." It's objective. That's why it's, "that's right," rather than, "you're right." When they say, "you're right," they're saying, "at this point, I can't defeat you in this argument based on what I know in the position I'm in. So I'm going to say your rights so I can get away from you."
So there's a big difference between "that's fair," "that's right," and "you're right." And folks that use them interchangeably get in trouble and they have no idea why. Then I'm morass at that point.
Corey Frank (33:25):
Yeah, I think it emanated from Sandler. I know Matson uses it a lot, but I think even David Sandler used "fair" in a lot of his early recordings from kind of the late 80s, early 90s or so in some of his screenplays. But that's interesting how-
Chris Beall (33:41):
It's super desirable as a state. And therefore, you're playing with fire when you're playing with "fair." The other F-word.
Corey Frank (33:47):
I love it.
Chris Beall (33:47):
But it's okay in this case, because a little fire as needed. When you asked me for more information, turns out, you're not really asking me for more information from your curiosity. You're of two minds. One is you might want to know a little more. The other is you want to say, "We're set." You want me to tell you enough so that you can say we're set. And then you're out of the conversation through the back door. I don't want to let you out through the back door because I think it's wrong. I think you'll benefit. I think you'll learn one, two, or three things of immense value to you if you just come and attend the meeting. I believe that deeply, that's my product is the meeting.
I believe in my product. I think you'll learn something about the potential for reducing your costs of having conversations. I believe you'll learn something about the potential for having your life as a manager be easier because you're [crosstalk 00:34:47] do something that you want them to do. And I believe you'll learn about the potential for dominating markets or getting on a path to dominate a market, which is fundamentally going to allow you to keep your job, or if you own the company, to survive. I believe you'll learn about those things regardless of whether we ever do business together. I believe in my product.
Corey Frank (35:06):
That's beautiful.
Chris Beall (35:07):
The product is the meeting.
Seth Godin, of Purple Cow fame, writes, “Trust and attention – these are the scarce items in a post-scarcity world.”
I’m obviously fairly partisan on this issue but would certainly add “Fear” to his list as well. Or, specifically, how do you embrace and leverage “fear” in your systematic effort towards Market Dominance?
No one said Market Dominance would be easy. It’s diligent and deliberate…it’s a three-year marathon where one of your end goals is that you end up having discovery meetings with 60% of your market. It’s both ambitious and arduous to set a course for market dominance. But the results are irrefutable…IF your inputs are consistent. For instance, understanding that the constraint of your sales system is not headcount, sales methodology, or even price point.
It’s the flow rate of conversations with relevant people that you have at the top of your funnel that is so commonly the real constraint to success.
----more----
But as entrepreneurs and Sales Leaders, knowing what we need to do to fix this top of funnel constraint is often a dreadful and fear-inducing exercise. Because we know what this real constraint is called: It stirs in the bellies of sales professionals everywhere. It’s not the bogeyman, or Baba Yaga or Pennywise; it’s the “Cold Call.” This king of all top of funnel constraint leads many teams to displacement…or the simple avoidance of what truly needs to be done by doing something seemingly easier or far less friction.
Like sending email.
Or better yet, sending an email campaign.
Or doing SEO, lots and lots of SEO...
Anything but jumping on the phone and talking to strangers.
Even in our own sales community on LinkedIn, there are countless and doggedly argued threads every week where a new sales “expert” likes to wax on about the final death knell of the cold call. Or that having your reps Cold Call is a colossal waste of both capital and goodwill.
They’ll spin compelling data about pick up rates, dial to conversion rates, and even quote rep turnover percentages to win minds to their side. Cruelly enforcing this medieval and antiquated exercise in futility must stop in our sales craft.
Because “Fear.” Fear of employing a practice that is seen as dated. Fear of people leaving your organization. Fear of doing something that doesn’t get results.
And mostly, though, we fear the experience of making cold calls ourselves. But if we’re committed to be Market Dominant, we'd be wise to let fear play its healthy role with our competition. Let your competitors embrace that fear and refuse to use an indispensable tool like the cold call. Fine.
But we are also wise to let fear play its role in the cold call itself. With the prospect. Because we want to use it to create tension in a relationship that we can then resolve.
And, according to the Van Helsing of GoToMarket strategies – my partner on the other side of this microphone, Chris Beall - the way you properly run a cold call is acknowledging you that you start from a position of fear. Because the other person is indeed afraid of you. They're afraid of you because you're an invisible stranger and an invisible stranger is the worst possible thing in the environment of evolution. Those are the people from across the river paint their faces wrong…they put a bone in their ears, instead of their nose…and maybe they even talk funny. Their drumbeats don't sound quite like yours …and you would really prefer they stay on the other side of the river where they belong.
We have this inherent fear with invisible strangers. And when we cold-call somebody we trigger that fear and they may express that fear in “pushback.” Feelings like annoyance, anger, dismissiveness… whatever it happens to be. But when we're afraid, something interesting also happens, too; We tend not to run away. We want to get away, but instead, we put a little defense mechanism…a little squid ink, so to speak. And that’s the point where we need to embrace fear in the call. And so this episode, we learn from Chris how to properly use fear and how to ultimately turn that fear into trust…and then that trust into curiosity…and then that curiosity into real commitment.
So turn off all the lights, light a candle, and cue the macabre organ music…This is The Market Dominance Guys and this week's episode entitled, “Don’t Look Under the Bed: How to Make Fear your Friend in Cold Calling.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Seth Godin, of purple cow fame, rights, trust and attention, these are the scarce items in a post scarcity world. Now, I'm obviously fairly partisan on this issue but would certainly add fear to this list as well, or specifically, how do you embrace and leverage fear in your systematic effort towards market dominance? No one said market dominance would be easy, it's diligent and deliberate. It's a three-year marathon where one of your end goals is that you end up having discovery meetings with 60% of your market. It's both ambitious and arduous to certainly set a course for market dominance but the results are irrefutable, if your inputs are consistent. For instance, understanding that the constraint of your sales system is not headcount or sales methodology or even price point, it's the flow rate of conversations with relevant people that you have at the top of your funnel. That is so commonly the real constraint to your market dominant success. But as entrepreneurs and sales leaders, knowing what we need to do to fix this top of the funnel constraint, is often a dreadful and fear inducing exercise, because we know what this real constraint is called.
It stirs in the bellies of sales professionals everywhere and it's not the boogeyman or Baba Yaga or Pennywise, it's the cold call. And this king of all, top of funnel constraints leads many teams to simple displacement. The simple avoidance of what truly needs to be done by doing something easier with far less friction like, sending an email or better yet sending an email campaign or doing SEO, lots and lots of SEO. Anything but jumping on the phone and talking to strangers. Even in our own community of sales professionals on LinkedIn, there are countless and doggedly argued threads every week where a new sales expert likes to wax on about the final death nail or the cold call. Or that having your reps cold call is a colossal of both capital and goodwill. They'll spin compelling data about pickup rates or dial to conversion rates or even, "Rep turnover percentages." To win minds to their side. "Cruelly enforcing this medieval and antiquated exercise in futility must stop in our sales craft."
They'll say. Because fear of employing a practice that is seen as dated. Fear of people leaving your organization because they don't like to call, they don't like to pick up the phone. Fear of doing something that it doesn't get results. And mostly though, we fear the experience of making cold calls ourselves, especially as leaders and entrepreneurs. But if we're committed to be market dominant, we'd be wise to let fear play it's healthy role with our competition. Let your competitors embrace that fear and refuse to use an indispensable tool like the cold call. But we are also wise to let fear play its role in the cold call itself, with the prospect. Because we want to use that to create tension in a relationship that we can then resolve. And according to the Van Helsing of go to market strategies, my partner on the other side of this microphone, Chris Beall, the way you properly run a cold call is acknowledging that you start from a position of fear, because the other person is indeed afraid of you.
They're afraid of you because you're an invisible stranger and an invisible stranger is the worst possible thing in the environment of evolution. Those are the people from across the river who paint their faces wrong, they put a bone in their ears versus their nose and maybe they even talk funny. Their drum beats don't sound quite like yours either. And you would really prefer that they stay on the other side of the river or where they belong. So we have this inherent fear with invisible strangers and when we cold call somebody, we trigger that fear and they may express that fear in pushback. That's what we really dread, isn't it? That's the fear, feelings like annoyance and anger and dismissiveness, whatever it happens to be.
But when we're afraid, something interesting also happens, we tend not to run away. We want to get away but instead we put a little defense mechanism up, a little squinting as, Chris likes to say so to speak. And that's the point where we need to embrace fear in the call. And so in this episode, we learn from Chris how to properly use fear and how we ultimately turn that fear into trust and then that trust in curiosity and then that curiosity into real commitment. So turn off all the lights, light a candle, cue the Macabre organ music. This is The Market Dominance Guys and this week's episode entitled, don't look under the bed, how to make fear your friend in cold calling.
Announcer (06:04):
I can always tell when you're about to speak wisdom, your posture changes, everything else, so I want to make sure I capture this though.
Corey Frank (06:30):
Well, actually I think it does map onto this whole concept of market dominance, they're both marathons. And market dominance is a three-year marathon, where you end up having discovery meetings with 60% of your market. Got to try. You're never sprinting, you're never pushing, that whole end of month end of quarter, all that stuff means nothing when you're going after market dominance. You're just jogging at a trot. You're not pushing, you're not discounting. Sure, when you're doing the market entry part, you always discount. Usually you discount by adding services so that you don't charge for. The best way to discount as always to simply do more and make sure you don't charge for it.
The temptation is to say, "Well, since we're doing more, this must be part of our business, folks are valuing it. If you don't charge for something, people won't value you and therefore we should charge for it." But that is a mistake when you're doing the early part of the chasm crossing for a particular market. When you're chasm crossing, you have to buy your way into the market and you can either buy it with a lower price. You can buy it with greater services, which is lower price. And the smart way to do it, is to hold your price point, your guest at price point for the core offering and add services that you don't name, because that's another key. When you name the services, then you feel like you have to charge for them, you just provide them. So in our case, for instance, for our company, the services we provide have always been extensive as you know.
We do this immense amount of consulting, we do analysis along the way, how are your reps doing? What's your talent spread like? Recommending best practices, going in and offering to do coaching, all of this stuff that everybody else in the entire world of sales services, training, consulting and so forth, they charge for. We don't even give a name to them, because if we give a name to them, then it would be tempting to package them and charge.
Announcer (08:21):
It would, yeah, right.
Corey Frank (08:23):
And there's two problems with that. Problem number one, is you forget what it is you're trying to do. You're trying to dominate a market with an offering with scales and whatever the service thing is probably isn't an offer that scales, maybe it is but you don't know and it's not like you set out to do. So, that's one, two is as soon as you charge for services, somebody is going to end up owning that part of the P and L internally, you have to have a sales head or a business head of GM or something for that part of the business.
Announcer (08:53):
Functional services. Yeah, right.
Corey Frank (08:54):
Exactly. That stuff is easier to sell from your core product because it has no edges to it. There was never any edge to the services you'll provide. If somebody says, "Well, does the service include x?" The answer is always, yes. Because it's a service and at the margin, we could do one more thing and one more thing, wouldn't be a big thing in this particular case. So you end up putting your product boundaries, so to speak around your services through policies, whereas your actual product has natural bounders. If I've sell you a Tesla, you might say, "Well, I could use it as a doorstop." But it's not going to fit very well through the frontier year of your house or into your office. You're not going to be too tempted to use the Tesla as a doorstop, which is a low value use of Tesla or to use it as a planter for your tomatoes.
There's a natural boundary around your Tesla but there's not a natural boundary around my service to drive you wherever it is you need to go, because you just might decide, "Hey, you know what? Instead of flying to San Francisco, I'd like to be driven there." I didn't put that in my business plan, that I was going to be gone for so long that done so far away, I couldn't pick up another passenger. And by the way, he's going to buy my Teslas now. It's a horrible mistake that's made in market dominance plays to price down incorrectly but you must price down. To enter a market, you have to offer something that overcomes the natural hesitancy that people have toward buying something new from someone that they haven't done business with before and by the way, doesn't have a single reference. And you can't use your precast and references, because they were buying your stuff, not as product to solve a broken mission, critical business process. They were buying it for competitive advantage and we'll not talk about it.
And by the way, by the time you get to this part of the process they hate you, so they're not going to say nice things anyway. But they're not going to say anything, which is the good news. So it's, they hate you but so what? They don't hate you by the way and think your stuff is bad, they just hate you because they had happy years about what they could do competitively. And some other part of their value chain broke down and they asked you to help fix it and of course you couldn't because you can't fix whole companies. And so you end up always in this relationship where people in the pre chasm market, companies in the precast market are buy in for, this extraordinary reason which is, I need to go kill the competition. And they can't kill the competition most of the time. And so they just keep piling up the requirements and the pressure on you, the provider of the magic beans, the magic technology, and eventually you get everything you need out of it, if it definitely works.
Thank you very much, dear visionary customer you've forced me to make my technology work, now I need to package it as a product and take it to market across the chasm, which means I have to price down. The chasm gets wider, the higher the price of my offering relative to the certainty of value that a customer is going to get out of it, my first customer. That just widens the chasm, so I want to narrow the chasm by allowing that first customer to buy at what feels like a lower price and the best way to lower your prices is to add services. I will do more for you and the worst mistake you can make is simply to package those services and say, "Hey, this is a new product." We finally gotten to the point of almost packaging flight school. But flight school has the funny quality for us as a permanent pre-chasm resident. We sell competitive advantage, so we don't ever get to cross the chasm correctly.
And so what we have to do, is seed the pre-chasm to the point where anybody else who wants in has got to get through our wall of fire. Everybody who is properly addicted to connect and sell for competitive advantage is taken. And if you want one from that worth bit, we have to scorch the earth on the other side. But we have a beautiful little post chasm offering called, flight school. It takes your reps and turns them into the top 5% of cold callers in the world and it does it reliably.
Announcer (13:05):
But that's not a standalone product?
Corey Frank (13:07):
It's not, because it only works with the ConnectAndSell stuff because otherwise you're not having enough conversations. You can feel good about it but being an expert at having three conversations a day, it's just ridiculous. I'd say making a race car driver out of somebody and saying, "By the way, we go to 7/11 once a week.
Corey Frank (14:22):
When I was a little kid, we moved out into the desert, North Scottsdale. What is now, you would see this as way down in town but back then, it was way out in the middle of nowhere. So think Cactus and 68th street.
Announcer (14:37):
I'm about a block away from there right now.
Corey Frank (14:39):
So you know the area, well, this was all open desert back then, we were one of the first houses in the area. The big deal was that you got to was zoned for animals. It was actually zoned, believe it or not. It wasn't un-zoned, it was all part of Scottsdale. Scottsdale, was Annex all the way up to Pinnacle Peak way back in the day. Scottsdale is the most visionary annexation in the history, actually is still thinking in the U.S. you would classify it with Jacksonville and a couple of other towns, that figured this out earl, which is we're in a place that's naturally going to grow as the economy changes over time.
And so let's take all the land we can and put it inside the city boundaries and let that be our... It's like pre making a legacy, it was very, very clever and people knew it by the way, it wasn't unconscious. It was controversial but it wasn't unconscious. We were the people who are going to buy into this vision and move out into the desert, which is what we did. So we moved from Camelback and Scottsdale road, where we were in 1957 and 1963, something like that too. We moved out there to '68 that it's actually Jenan and between 67th and 68. A long block South of Cactus, and we're zone for horses. And part of the idea was, that we were going to have horses and there was no limit, you could have 20 of them if you wanted but who would do.
And we were on an acre and then we bought the acre behind us so he had an acre for the homestead itself and then we had an acre of training horses. Then we had cavalettis and barrels and everything out there. So I was the youngest of the family, when you're the youngest and you have four older sisters and the oldest is a horse expert it's intimidating. And yet I had to have a horse. I had this horse, which I shared for a while with my sister, Cindy, his name is Tim. And Tim was a big gentle, quarter horse gelding, 16 hands, big stocky animal, very, very gentle but it's a horse. It was big enough, he could outrun me all day. He could hurt me if he wanted to and I was a little kid, so I'm like seven, eight years old.
And I've got to learn how to put a bridle on a horse by myself, because there was never anybody around to help. So how did I do it? Well, I was taught by one of my sisters, how to do this, which is you come up to the horse and you hold your hands about this far apart and palms down, fists closed and you have like a carrot in each hand. But the horse doesn't know and horse's sense of smell is pretty good, but not strong enough to be able to tell which hand do you have the carrot in and anyway it's in both, so they don't. The horse has to make a choice and that's what you're trying to do is to take this fear relationship, because they're prey animals, they're afraid of anything approaching. They have a stereotype set of responses as humans do also to being approached.
And until you can get the bridle on the horse, you have to get the horse to approach you. That's why we cold call and have unscheduled follow up in- [bridge 00:17:55] Calls in order to set a meeting but we never hold the meeting, that's putting the bridle on, in that call. Because as soon as we do that, we aggregate the trust that we set up for them to come to the meeting in the first place, that is, they haven't come to us yet. So, Thornburg talks to his victims before their ears have come up and are facing forward. The horse tells you that it's ready to consider your proposition when instead of laying it tears back, which is to listen for the saber tooth tiger behind it, that's going to jump on its back and drive its fangs on other side of its withers, which is why their damn fangs are so long.
It takes a lot to penetrate a horse on the back and swipe the big dagger is there as part of doing the mess. But horses don't like things behind them, so you have occupied their attention in front of them, so they listen behind them. That's with their fear response. They're smart, they got to work 360, you're a prey animal and your body is precious to you. They have very low reproductive rates. Animals with low reproductive rates are extremely cautious about their corpus, about their body because it's worth a lot. You're a merry you might have six falls, seven falls, eight falls in your life, that could be it. It's a really big deal to die. Whereas there's some animals dying is no big deal, but they already had 43,000 babies last year, so what? They're promiscuous with their bodies and the big animals with the low reproductive rates, whether they're carnivores or whether they're prey animals, all have the same strategy which is never get injured.
That's their strategy, never get injured. And they don't like to get in fights that's why bears do what they do, they act in a certain way you really watch carefully in the site. They're really trying not to get hurt, even when they fight each other, that's the only time that they are willing to risk it because they're fighting directly for reproduction at that point. It's a one for one game, I win somebody gets pregnant. That one they'll fight for but they won't do it in order to take down prey, unless they're starving because it's not worth it. It's just not worth getting injured, because you get injured and you go into this downward spiral. So horses are like this, there is go back and all this. To get the horse to come to you requires curiosity. The way you run a cold call is you start from fear, the other person is afraid of you.
They're afraid of you because you're an invisible stranger and an invisible stranger is the worst possible thing in the environment of evolution. Those are the people from across the river, who paint their faces wrong, put a bone in their ears instead of their nose. They talk funny. Their drum beats don't sound correct. Everything about them is just uncomfortable. And you would really prefer they stay on the other side of the river, where they belong. And if they show up and are invisible, that means it's night. And people who show up in the middle of the night uninvited to your village are not your friends. They're not bringing you a bud light. They're there ultimately, for reproductive purposes to take over the situation. You've collected something of value and now they're coming to get it.
And so we have this inherent fear of invisible strangers and when we cold call somebody, we trigger that fear instantly and they express that fear as push back, annoyance, anger, dismissive. Whatever it happens to be, everybody has a different way within a characteristic set of ways of handling fear. When we're afraid, we tend not to run away, we want to get away, but we want to put a little defense up, a little squiddick. So you see this on almost every cold call, it's not, "Hey, I'm so glad you called me." It's just not. And yet why not? After all, I mean, it could be something wonderful. And we all say, it's about the fact that we've interrupted them and blah, blah, blah and they're busy. Really, have you ever watched somebody in their day? They ain't doing.
They're not doing anything most of the time, they're pretending to be busy, they would love a break quite frankly. Their job bores them, it irritates them, all sorts of things are going on they don't like, a little break might be nice to talk to somebody. However, you ambush them. If it had been a good friend who called they'd act different. Because you're not an invisible stranger, you're just an invisible friend. An invisible friends, friends in the dark are just fine. Strangers in the dark are presumed to be enemies. So that's the big issue we have with cold calling, so Thornburg, actually goes through that process well. I mean, the guy spent, he took an hour and a half lesson from me one day, one-on-one. So he got most of it and he just went off to apply it.
So he's good at the beginning because he goes through the fear to trust part really well. But then the question is when you get a little bit of trust, how do you spend it? So with the horse, how you spend it, is you spend it on curiosity. So you get trust by just standing there and not approaching. You approach, you trigger the fear, you wait, the fear decays. Then the question is what next? And the answer is curiosity, which is why you just stand there with your hands out, palms down, fists closed. And eventually the horse will exercise that curiosity and they'll make a commitment. The commitment is to one hand over the other. When they do that, you turn the handover, there's the carrot, they get busy with the carrot. You reach behind yourself to where the bridle is. You pull the bridle around, you don't put the bridle on them.
You touch them on the side of the face, which they like. Because once you're touching them and not hurting them, you must be one of them. Because there's only one thing that touches a horse and doesn't hurt it and that's another horse, a friend and we're the herd. So you actually become a member of the herd through touch and you're feeding them. And so then you've got a twofer and then eventually the touch is allowed to come up high enough to get the bridle, to put it around their muzzle and get one loop over the ear and once you're there, then you have a second thing you got to teach them to do, which is separate, which is get the damn fit in their mouth. That's like, "Okay, food bit." And you have to do that, that's getting to the close.
That's done in discovery but my point is, there's a strict separation, which mean approach, triggering fear, moving that fear to trust. So with the horse, we do it through inaction, because if you're still and you're not continuing to approach them, you're acting exactly the opposite of a predator that's close and within view. So for a horse, you signal untrustworthy just by not moving. With a human, we signal with trustworthy, by telling them we see the world their way. I know I'm an interruption and then we show them a path for solving the problem. The problem is us, we are the fearful thing, well, how do I solve the problem? Listen to me a little bit. And I'll go a way with a simple offer.
I know I'm an interruption, can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And if you say those two things exactly like that, just exactly those words, not some other words that make you comfortable, they're words that allow somebody to say, "Wait a minute, you see the world my way you are an interruption." If you want to blow it, all you have to do is just say this, "I know I'm interrupting your day." So you throw the circumstances under the bus and you're saying, I'm not the problem.
Announcer (25:24):
Why the 27 seconds again? I know it's a playful tone, we've talked about that, is it too cheesy? Is it to diminish your stature or your status at all? Or does tone matter in how you sell that 27 seconds?
Corey Frank (25:42):
Tone matters a lot, you have to say the 27 second ask is playful, curious, come along with me, come along with me. It's almost offhand, "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" Let's just root disconnect between, I know I'm an interruption. And then the natural next thing to say is, and I'm sorry, I'll hang up. But instead of saying that, you offer an alternative plan. And when you offer a plan to somebody you're offering the plan, you're not demanding the plan, you don't think you have a right to it. So you use a tone of voice that says, "Come with me, it'll be fun." So now I have first order purpose, which is let's have some fun. So it's very, very gentle but it's like, "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" But you are asking for something, can I have? You're not asking, may I have?
By the way, you're not asking for permission. You're asking a question of fact, can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called you? You're saying, you're in charge. You could choose to give me these 27, if you do, I'll tell you why I called. If not, I guess you won't know. I mean, this is what's so interesting to me about market dominance, I've been through it... We'll have to go through this over and over and over to get it across.
Announcer (26:57):
That's great, solid.
Corey Frank (26:58):
Way over here is controlling the market by having discovery calls with 60% of the market for three years. Most people don't want to think that but that's the way over here. I go through the process of how do I get a discovery call? Well, I need to talk to somebody. Why do I need to talk to them? Because, they have to trust me enough to decide to spend 15 minutes with. How am I going to get them to trust me enough to do that? Well, I'm starting from fear.
My alternative is to let my competitor go down the hard road and start from fear. So I could start just from curiosity, send them an email. Email is not scary. It seems like a superior opening move. I send you an email, you're not afraid of me. However, there's no tension in there to create anything out of, there's no energy. How much does it cost to me self image wise to dismiss an email? I think I'll do it right now, let me find one. I'm going to find an email and dismiss it right now.
Announcer (27:57):
How do you feel? How do you feel? Any tension in doing that?
Corey Frank (28:00):
This is not bothering me in the least. Somewhere in here, there will be one. Here we go. For your team, we work together with accounting and finance, temporary help in your department and do hope we can work with you again. To make this possible I'd like to offer you a $400 invoice credit. Well, it's gone. And that's even somebody who claims they know me.
A lot goes into building a surfboard. In fact, depending on the expertise and the quality of the board, there can be upwards of 39 steps from start to finish. It’s not a fast process and takes a skilled surfer on the shaper to know what a particular board size or shape will do in the water. Take Dick Brewer, the undisputed 83-year-old grandmaster surfboard shaper from Hawaii. Dick has designed boards surfing legends all over the world…the big guys like Laird Hamilton and Garrett McNamara. He says he has made more than 50,000 boards in his lifetime. McNamara says, "He makes the boards that I can trust my life on." Dick doesn’t take that trust lightly since Garrett regularly hunts waves of 100-feet plus to ride. Today, Dick hand-makes about 200 boards a year, putting his crisp, neat signature on each of them with a pencil and some of his custom wood boards sell for as much as $12,000.
Dick’s fundamental innovation was to shape the nose and tail of the board into a teardrop rather than an oval, allowing the board to cut into the water more precisely and help surfers ride inside the tube of the wave…this was revolutionary at the time and is credited with helping explode the skills and confidence of the big wave riders and also help newer folks try their hand at the sport. Tune in for this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "The Best Surfer Out There is the One Having the Most Fun."
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In the previous episode of the Market Dominance Guys, we compared the surfboard to the words or scripts that are used. And the surfer – the professional salesperson who wields and performs those words with an exacting tone, pace, and delivery.
And so in this week’s episode, I ask our own grandmaster and sales-pitch shaper – Chris Beall, about the critical nature of the focusing on the first seven seconds of your call to establish true trust and how that simple revelation was akin to Dick’s innovation of shaping the tail of a board into a teardrop and brought about a very similar revolution into our sales craft.
This is the Market Dominance Guys and this week’s episode entitled, “The Best Surfer Out There Is The One Having The Most Fun.”
Dick’s fundamental innovation was to shape the nose and tail of the board into a teardrop rather than an oval, allowing the board to cut into the water more precisely and help surfers ride inside the tube of the wave. This was revolutionary at the time and is credited with helping explode the skills and confidence of the big wave riders and also help newer folks try their hand at the sport.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:48):
A lot goes into building a surf board. In fact, dependent on the expertise and the quality of the board, there can be upwards of 39 steps from start to finish. It's definitely not a fast process and takes a skilled surfer on the shaper to know what a particular board, size or shape will actually do in the water. Take Dick Brewer, the undisputed 83 year old grand masters surfboard shaper from Hawaii. Dick has designed boards that surfing legends have used all over the world. And I'm talking the big guys like Laird Hamilton or Garrett McNamara and others. He says he's made more than 50,000 boards in his lifetime, in fact. Garrett McNamara says that he makes the kind of boards that I can trust my life on. And Dick doesn't take that trust lightly since Garrett, as some of you know, regularly hunts waves of 100 feet plus to ride.
Corey Frank (01:53):
And even today at 83, Dick hand makes about 200 boards a year, always putting his crisp, neat signature on each of them with a pencil. And some of his boards go for as much as $12,000. And Dick's fundamental innovation was to shape the nose and the tail of the board into a teardrop rather than an oval, which was used for years, allowing the board to cut into the water more precisely and help surfers ride inside the tube of the wave. This was revolutionary at the time and is credited with helping explode the sport and explode the skills and confidence of the big wave riders and also help newer folks try their hand at the sport. And in the previous episode of the Market Dominance Guys, we compared the surf board, the tool of the surfboard to the words or the scripts that are used in your sales pitch.
Corey Frank (02:52):
And the surfer, the professional sales person who wields and performs those words with an exciting tone and pace in delivery. And so in this week's episode, I ask our own grand master sales pitch shaper, Chris Beall, about the critical nature of focusing on the first seven seconds of your call to establish true trust and how that simple revelation was akin to Dick's innovation of shaping the tail of the port into a teardrop and how Chris's innovation brought about a very similar revolution in our sales craft. This is the Market Dominance Guys in this week's episode, entitled the best surfer out there is the one having the most fun.
Chris Beall (03:45):
When Chris Voss said, right now, to me that evening, when he said, "You need to show this person that you're competent to solve a problem they have right now." It was the words right now that blew my [inaudible 00:04:00] up because I just suddenly realized, wait a minute, the problem this person has right now is me. And it turns out the secret to the whole damned thing is for me to actually say, "I am the problem." And to offer a solution to the problem that is me and that moves the trust needle every time. And this is where our customers, we teach them this get confused because they then go back to the traditional model and say, "Yeah, but did it produce a meeting?" And that's not the point. The point is 103 million, right? I said, 100 and this little test drive here, and 103 or 108, I think it was, million bits of information.
Chris Beall (04:53):
Most of which were not in the words. This is the other part that's hard for people to understand is within those seven seconds, I can only get out so many words. I can probably say 40 words, right? So let's try to see how many words there are. I know I'm in an interruption, that's five and I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called, that's 11. So 16 words are emitted during that time. So those 16 words average in this case, I think six, seven characters each. So 16 times, six times, eight, right? 16 times six times eight. That's only about a 768 bits of information. That's not very much, right? 768 bits. And yet those 16 words took seven seconds. And in those seven seconds, there are 140,000 bits of information that I've emitted. Well, all the rest of it's tone of voice, it's pros to what do I sound like?
Chris Beall (06:02):
It's who do I sound like? Is do I sound like somebody you can trust? So this brings down the talent issue to something that's really people don't think about, which is the quality of the voice. I'll call it the obvious sincerity of the human being who is having that first seven second conversation, is the key to market dominance. This scripts purpose, the 768 bits of information, its role is to be like a surfboard. The job at the surf board is not to ride the wave. Pro surf boards in the ocean all day long and you will not have very many artistic wave riding experiences. Surf boards just bop around and do whatever they do. And every once in a while, one of them kind of comes in on a wave and stays on it for a while. Nothing very interesting happens.
Chris Beall (06:52):
You put a surfer on the surf board, constrained by the surf board, right? They can't walk around anywhere else on the water. They can only walk around in that little tiny little floaty thing that they got underneath them and a fairly small amount of that. But if their skill is high and their courage is there, they know what they're doing, within that script, that is the surf board. They can express their personality.
Corey Frank (07:14):
Well, let me talk about that for a second. I love, first of all, I love that analogy. The script is your surf board. The surfer is the tone and the sincerity and who wields that tool.
Chris Beall (07:24):
Yes.
Corey Frank (07:25):
So James, what's the gentleman's name? James Wahlberg? He does the videos. I love his...
Chris Beall (07:31):
[inaudible 00:07:31].
Corey Frank (07:31):
[inaudible 00:07:31] . Right? And I love his breakthrough script, but his value prop that he delivers that I think that's where the hiccup is because his tone is exceptional. Right? Very empathetic. His pacing is a masterclass. His body language just gets into it. Right? I mean, he doesn't have 100 calls, right? He has one call a hundred times. I mean, he is just the iceman. He does not leave his wing man. I love it. But it just seems that the far be it is for me. I don't know. I, I respect the hell out of him for doing it, but seems like he could do some help on his, on that initial big idea. That seemed to be where he's missing a lot of his success. Now, granted, it's not the sexiest product, but I still think that's irrelevant.
Chris Beall (08:21):
Yeah. Well, if it's a pure trust product too, I mean, it's got the issue that it's a funny kind of software, right? It's something to do with this analysis, he is reluctant to talk about a breakthrough because of his own personality. I've actually taken him through the entire messaging workshop. And this is what I do a lot of now is messaging workshops. And the more sophisticated somebody is, the less likely they are to like the message that we come up with.
Corey Frank (08:50):
Yeah. [inaudible 00:08:52] It's close. I think really he's so close.
Chris Beall (08:55):
He's close. But I'm happy to have him out there amusing masses, right? It works like crazy, but it is true that the surf board constrains the performance, but I'd rather have a master surfer on a shitty surf board than the other way. Then me on the best surf board in the world. You put me out there on a wave and you're not going to get much because I won't even get up on the board. Right? But it does say that our talent management is we should be looking for, the guys at 511 Enterprises do this. So they hire people who are graduates of a couple of the religious schools up there in Redding, California. And they hire them because they were on a mission to help these people stay in the Redding area. And so if they could get them sales jobs and put them in this inside sales organization, that they run on the outsource spaces, then that would help their mission.
Chris Beall (09:51):
So they're kind of a nonprofit for a while. And then they became a profit-making entity and now a serious business. And what we call it is packaged sincerity on steroids. So they hire people who've been through a sincerity filter. It's not average people who go to school in these places, these are people who are above average sincerity. And then these people can be scripted. They can be given a surfboard and taught to surf, but they have good balance. That's like sincerity is like good balance, right? If you want to be a great surfer, you got to have good balance. Now this analogy, I think plays all the way out in a fascinating way. And again, it is the exact opposite of how people think about it. I had a nesting workshop yesterday with the manager and some other people and his paradigm was this. Well, my reps need to be themselves. They need to be creative.
Chris Beall (10:46):
Well, they need to be themselves. They need to be identical each time. And it's their voice that's going to carry this. Of the, how many bits did you? You get a lot of bits in here, 140,000 bits in a seven second conversation in which less than 1,000 of those bits are the words.
Corey Frank (11:04):
Yeah. Be yourself. I work a lot with Oren Klaff, his new book comes out today, great by the way. And he has a bit that he uses, he was on London reel with Brian Rose a year or two ago. And Ryan says, "You know Oren, in a high stakes sales pitch when this is your craft and your profession, can't you just be yourself?" He said, be yourself, terrible idea. You're not that good. Chris Rock and Jerry Seinfeld do not go on stage for a three minute set at the comedy store or in Carson and be themselves, right? It takes 30 hours to condense it to three minutes. Like Mark Twain. Mark Twain used to go through his words and his manuscripts. And if he could take out words, every other word, and it still made sense, he would leave the words out. And he took the word and it changed the fundamental meaning of it. Like Hemingway, every word is very compact and appropriate versus [inaudible 00:12:03].
Corey Frank (12:04):
Tarantino? You could create, you could exude three minutes of different scripts. It stays the same, the art isn't there, but the meaning is still the same. So yeah. Be yourself, terrible idea.
Chris Beall (12:15):
Terrible idea. Express your true belief in something? Absolutely a great idea. This is the other part that I find so fascinating. This sales person has to be selling something. So first they have to get trust. That takes seven seconds to move the trust needle. Then they have to sell something. And the question is, if I want to consistently go through a market and own that market. I want to dominate that market. I'd better be selling the same thing over and over.
Chris Beall (12:42):
That thing can't be my product because my product being software, no matter what it is now is always software is too adaptable. So it can't any longer say, "You know what Corey? See this, this you got to have one of these. The reason I have got to have it, it's got a little cover on it. And that texts the inside and it's orange. So it's easy to find because you're misplacing things all the time and you look at it and you go, "That's interesting, but you know, what you can do with those is I can use that as a doorstop. I can swat a fly with it. I can toss it across the room to amuse my dog and have him fetch it.
Chris Beall (14:16):
You know it's software, right? These aren't software, but everything we sell nowadays as 1,001 uses or 10,000 or 100,000 micro uses. Why do we have to configure software products? We're making the product that is the product. I don't have to jump out of the box of work except ours, actually, for a funny reason, it's because our product is not a product. Our product is the conversations that it produces. And so those are consistent because they're ancient. They go back 500,000 years or quarter million years or whatever it is that people, whenever people started talking to each other, that stuff so old, I don't have to worry about whether it's going to slip out between my fingers and become something else. The conversations are ancient and they're very reliable, but the sales person is still once they get that little bit of trust, they have to have something to sell.
Chris Beall (15:06):
The product that you can sell consistently is the discovery meeting. And when you sell the discovery meeting, you must believe in the product, which is the discovery meeting. So the key to everything in market dominance is this, make sure you get the first seven seconds right, by showing the other person that you're on their side. I know I'm an interruption. So one way of doing that and then showing them that you're competent to solve a problem they have right now, the problem I have right now, or they have right now is me. So let's solve me. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And that's how we're going to solve me. You do your thing. You listen, I do my thing. I tell you why I called and it takes 27 seconds. And so we've solved the problem. Now, the question is, what am I going to sell you in those 27 seconds?
Chris Beall (15:56):
I'm going to sell you something I have to truly believe in, which is not my product will solve your problem. It's my meeting we'll teach you something. That's what I have to sell you. And to sell you that I have to know what that something is. All good discovery meetings teach something in one of three dimensions. There's an economic dimension. They teach you something about your business with regard to, or your own situation with regard to risk or with regard to time, or with regard to money out of getting it or saving it. There's an emotional dimension, usually around frustration, occasionally around fear, almost never around anything else. Those are the only two emotions. The third one is...
Corey Frank (16:39):
Is it economic and emotional?
Chris Beall (16:43):
Economic emotional. And then the third one is strategic, which is you're going to learn something about another way that you might not have thought about, or you didn't know it was possible or safe or whatever of going from where you are to where you need to go. And you're going to learn all three of those things to some level in this discovery meeting. Therefore, since I know that, I believe in the potential value of that discovery meeting for you, the human being who's going to attend it because companies don't learn. People learn even if we never do business together.
Chris Beall (17:13):
If I have that belief, and then I say anything that doesn't make you not want to attend the meeting, that's all, that's really, what's funny about it. It's like a negative rule, if I don't use the category of my product at all. So I keep you from being able to say, "Hey, you know what? That's great, Chris, but we're set." If I can avoid you making that fatal mistake of saying you're set, which you will always say, if you think, you know what I'm selling. Why will you say that? Because the alternative is that you're incompetent and you don't want to be thought of as incompetent. So you don't say, you say...
Corey Frank (17:50):
Large amount of time. Wordsmithing, nuance, pacing, tone. Role-playing around how to describe this discovery meeting that you're offering.
Chris Beall (18:01):
Yes.
Corey Frank (18:02):
As opposed to, "Hey, let's take 15 minutes and tell you a little bit about what we do and how it can help your business team save time, money, and whatever it is." Right? And so folks spend all this money on lists in their tech stack and their sales rep up a fucking ping pong table in the hoopla. And when it gets down to it, ConnectAndSell, they flip on the switch and they have just a terrible surf board that doesn't take them where they're riding terrible waves, if you will.
Chris Beall (18:31):
Yeah, they look ridiculous. They look like me on a surf board, right? They look like they're lying down or, you prefer, I hope a shark eats that one. I don't ever want to watch that again. It's that kind of thing. So I'll give one example and then I'm going to go talk with my friend Fallon at Node. Because she's got the answer to something. She's going to call me in five minutes. So we'll just wait for her call. So this is why our pitch sounds like it sounds. So ours is, Corey I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all. And the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar, and share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available?
Chris Beall (19:14):
No, every word in there, that's five hours of work to come up with that original set of words. Now it's down to one hour for somebody to learn the framework and maybe to believe in it enough to manage to it, which is what our challenges is. Please manage to this new framework. And why do we care about it being precise? Because every word counts in the surf board, it's like, do you want the surf board to have a fin on it? Because if it doesn't have a fin, when you move your weight a little to the side on the back part and nothing happens, it spins, we don't want it to spin. We want it to cut into the wave at that point. Oh yeah. But I don't like the fin because when I'm carrying the surf board, the fin sticks out in a funny way and it's harder to put it on the roof of my car.
Chris Beall (19:59):
Well, screw your issue with the fin, surf boards need fins, right? The reason for this word here, the reasoning for, I believe in here as uncomfortable as it is, is that's the fin on the surf board, I believe allows you to come back later and move your weight a little bit and change the direction of the conversation. So that's why we put it there. Right? So when we go through this process with folks, it only takes like Sean McLaren says, "Oh, it takes me three minutes to work somebody's message." And I say, "It takes me an hour." It's like, what do you do for an hour? I say, come watch some time. And so he came and watched and just sat in and I did one of them and afterwards he said, "Oh, that's different." I said, "Yeah." And yet the part where they do the only three minutes and all I do to get them to do the message is this, you walk into a bar.
Chris Beall (20:53):
I take him into the bar. And there in the third bar stool from the left is your person. They're wearing their ICP jacket. It says ICP, that looked like a motorcycle game, kind of person with patches and stuff. They're drinking with their right hands. You have to sit down to their left because right-handed people want to be free to punch you with the right hand or strangers. And then you ask him, "How was your day?" And they said, "You have no fucking idea." Then they give you the litany. And it's, Deming's litany. It's always the same. I didn't have one of the three things I needed and I didn't have the time, the resources or the support that I needed to do my job as well as I believe it should be done.
Chris Beall (21:34):
The only thing we have to sell in the world. Sadly, that's not the meeting. We have to know that that's out there or else we don't build our product. We use that personal thing is it that their feelings about that day as the bridge to the meeting and we do that by taking their feeling and turning them into negative words that follow the phrase, I believe we discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates. And then we put that in there and then before they can screw around with it, because that will hurt them, we got to actually do something obvious. One, tell him why we called. Two, use the extra few seconds to set up a meeting.
You can learn a lot about market dominance by sitting in the sand…and watching surfers on the beaches of Southern California as they hone their craft. As a land-locked kid from the mean streets of Milwaukee, I would visit the beaches of Venice, California every summer and attempt to ride the relatively modest waves of the warm Santa Monica waters.
Time and again I would bite it and tumble into the surf…learning a little bit each ride about balance…about the feel and the connection to the board beneath you…about timing.
And later committing to a career in sales revealed many of the same techniques that I tried to master as Midwest kid first learning to surf. Certainly meeting with the Sales version of Point Break’s surf-master Bohdi, Chris Beall, over 15 years ago, has helped guide me in search of both riding the perfect wave and executing the perfect sales call.
In this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris argues that it’s the quality of the voice of the sales professional…and the obvious ability to emote sincerity of the human being who is conducting the first seven-second conversation with the prospect, which is really the key to market dominance. You are the surfer. And the scripts you ride – its purpose – with its first bits of information - is to be like a surfboard. Working with both a high-quality tandem is the only way to achieve dominance.
But let’s remember that the job of the surfboard is not to ride the wave; that’s the surfer’s job. As I found out after many a spill, it simply can not ride the wave without a competent surfer. Having a Martin Scorsese-written script alone doesn’t guarantee success in your cold calling.
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That would be like chucking 1000 surfboards in the ocean…what would happen? Watch all day long and you will not have very many artistic or higher level wave riding experiences from doing this in spite of how expensive or expertly crafted your board is. The surfboard would just bob around at the pleasure of the waves. But every once in a while one of them could kind of come in on a wave and stay on it for a while… but nothing really very interesting happens.
BUT…you put a competent surfer on the board – who is now constrained by the confines of the surfboard (the script)…and if their skill is high enough and their courage is great enough, and they know what they're doing with their balance - or within that script - they can truly express their personality and establish trust…all in the first seven seconds. Their tone of voice, the prosody, what they sound like, “who” they sound like…all factors in the emotion that the prospects feel such as, Do you sound like somebody they can trust?
Hey…no one said Market Dominance would be easy. So welcome to this week's episode entitled, "Surf’s Up - We all stand equal before a wave."
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro. Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:50):
You can learn a lot about market dominance by sitting in the sand and watching surfers on the beaches of Southern California, as they hone their craft of the waters. And as a landlocked kid from the mean streets of Milwaukee, I would often visit the beaches of Venice, California, every summer, and attempt to ride the relatively modest waves of the warm Santa Monica waters. And time and again, I would bite it and tumble into the surf learning a little bit each ride about balance and about the feel and the connection to the board beneath you, and about timing. And later, committing to a career in sales revealed many of the same techniques that I tried to master as a Midwest kid, who first learned to surf. Certainly meeting with the sales version of Point Break's surf master Bodhi, my partner in the podcast here, Chris Beall, over 15 years ago has helped guide me in search of both riding the perfect wave and executing the perfect sales call.
And in this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris argues that it's the quality of the voice of the sales professional and the obvious ability to emote sincerity of the human being who is conducting the first seven seconds of the conversation with the prospect, which is really the key to market dominance. In our analogy, you are the surfer and the scripts you ride, its purpose with its first bits of information, is like a surfboard. And working with both a high-quality tandem of a script and a surfer or a performer is the only way to achieve market dominance. But let's remember that the job of the surfboard is not to ride the wave. That's the surfer's job. And as I found out after many a spill, it simply cannot ride the wave without a competent surfer. Having a Martin Scorsese-type written script alone doesn't guarantee success in your cold calling. That would be like chucking a thousand surfboards in the ocean and what would happen? Watch all day long and you will not have many very artistic or higher level wave riding experience from doing this. In spite of how expensive or expertly crafted your board is, you would just see many surfboards bobbing up and down at the pleasure of the waves. But certainly once in a while, maybe you see one of them come in on a wave and stay on it for a while, but nothing really interesting happens.
But if you put a competent surfer on the board who is now constrained by the confines of the surfboard, the script, and if their skill is high enough, and if their courage is great enough and they know what they're doing with their balance, and within that script, they can truly express their personality and establish trust all in the first seven seconds. Their tone of voice, their prosody, what they sound like, who they sound like, all factor in the emotion that the prospect feels culminating in, "Does this sound like somebody I can trust?" Hey, no one said market dominance would be easy. So welcome to this week's episode entitled, Surfs Up, We All Stand Equal Before A Wave.
Chris Beall (04:13):
This is what I asked [Chris Bosch 00:04:15] at that dinner that I was so kindly invited to and he had a very clear answer. To begin to move the trust needle, you have seven seconds. So that's a decay curve. When you encounter somebody, there's this time of ambiguity where they're neutral. And as you begin wasting their time, they begin trusting you. If you don't achieve trust after a while, you go into the, "Meh. I don't really care about this person." So his point is you got seven seconds. And during those seven seconds, you have to do two things precisely. One thing is you must show this person clearly that you see the world through their eyes and you're on their side. You understand their situation and you're for them not you. You can still be for you. I don't mean to them the exclusion of you,? But you're for them, you're on their side. And so you can't be on somebody's side unless you know what their side is. You have to show them that you see the world their way.
And then the second thing he said you need to do is establish with this person that you are competent to solve a problem that they have right now. And that's actually where the cold call comes in. What's so interesting about this whole equation, right? What happened to capitalism equation and why did sales become such [G&A 00:05:34]? In the capitalist world, that now becomes the manufacturing of trust.
Corey Frank (05:40):
Well, you started off this conversation by saying, is it okay to tell a sales rep how to do their job?
Chris Beall (05:46):
And the answer is if a sales rep is... If their job is to manufacture trust across a subset of the market... So say I have a market of 10,000. So I have 10 sales reps. So each sales rep has got a thousand people... Whether I assign them or not, doesn't make any difference. Their burden, so to speak, that they need to carry is a thousand trust relationships. So really, what I'm asking them to do is to hold an initial thousand conversations if they can, with their thousand and then have this process start to occur. The most important part is the thousand conversations, not the process. The process that leads to the sale is not irrelevant, but it's really close to irrelevant compared to the essential manufacturing process that needs to be run, which is some trust between every person in that thousand and that rep. And this is one of the reasons that sales teams should be relatively small when they go dominate markets, because it's hard to find that many people in the world that folks would comfortably trust. You actually have to hire salespeople for trustability. Exactly the opposite again. That's what's so fun about all of this, right?
Everything that we think about the classic salesperson, they're slick, they're smooth, they're fast-talking, they're this, they're that. They're the least trusted profession in the world other than politicians who are simply salespeople of futures that they never have to deliver. They make Elon Musk look a guy who's on the hook. So we have two kinds of salespeople people don't trust. Politicians and salespeople. And here we have this paradigm that says, "No, what we need to do to dominate a market and therefore stay in business..." Let's always come back to, is there any safe place in business? There's only one. Market dominance. If you dominate one market, you're pretty safe. If you dominate two, you're four times as safe. And if you dominate three, you're nine times as safe. So your safety factor goes with the square of the number of the markets that you dominate. So if you want to have a company that produces value for your heirs, so to speak, a few generations from now, you need to dominate probably four or five markets. And then you're 25 times a safe. And you take the business failure rate, which tends to run failure in four years and you go, "Oh, for four times 25, that's a hundred years. My business not might be around a hundred years from now." Especially if we can establish a traditional market dominance because then you have [crosstalk 00:08:37].
Corey Frank (08:37):
If you look at someone like [GE 00:08:37] who had dominance in capital, they had dominance in airplane [hitches 00:08:42], they had dominance in consumer goods. And in a span of one generational leadership... Not even, a couple of years, they've ended up selling off all those divisions and becoming fairly irrelevant.
Chris Beall (08:53):
Yeah. They managed to make the classic mistake, which is they mistook the flow of revenue. The best way to get revenue at GE was to load up on GE capital and say, "Go, go, go." So GE capital became this bigger and bigger part of it. And they lost their taste for dominating the real markets that they were in. And then having thrown the anchor through the bottom of the boat, they ended up doing a lot of bailing. And it's hard to get out of that situation. Actually, it's impossible to get out of. It can't be done. But in the general case, if you care about your company and you care about its future existence, you need to dominate. You come all the way down to, "How do I do that?" Well, the unit of change, which in any business process or any process, the question at the core is what's the unit of change? What must change and what are the inputs... What is the probability of change given the inputs and the magnitude of the inputs?
So say, I say the unit of change is that a square foot of floor gets clean when the input is a broom or a vacuum cleaner or a dustpan or whatever. I apply the inputs. There's some probability of getting the change to occur. I multiply that all out. I figure out what the cost is of doing that. And I say, "Oh, well, if I want this big change from not dominating a market to dominating a market, for instance, I have to have this many units of change." And what are they? Well, the unit of change is the fact of someone who is a potential buyer in that market, trusting a salesperson. And they're on a path to trusting that salesperson more than they trust themselves. That is, if the point of purchase can't occur until the buyer trusts the salesperson more than they trust themselves because the buyer's conservative... Why are they conservative? Because in B2B, you're putting your long game, your career, on the line for something short, which is the purchase of something that solves one problem. So you've got to be pretty motivated to risk your career for a purchase.
Corey Frank (10:50):
So the gentleman that you were talking about before, that you were talking with right before this conversation, very large multi-billion dollar company, probably fairly entrenched in the sales enablement, sales operations role wants to trust the product, but doesn't trust it enough. Wants to trust you, but doesn't trust you enough. The status quo, the devil I know is better than the devil I don't.
Chris Beall (11:14):
Well, in this particular case, the product is sold, but there's another sale that needs to be made. So this is a big customer of ours. They consume a million and a half dollars a year. They're a serious big customer, but their paradigm is the ancient paradigm, which is the salesperson makes the decision as to what tools they use and what techniques they use. Given that, it doesn't really matter if he trusts me because there's no way that they're going to change their paradigm until they change their paradigm. So our problem becomes to find a part of that particular company that is in enough trouble, that they will risk some senior manager, a general manager, CEO of one of those units, will risk their career on a new sales paradigm, which they're free to do. It's not like this is a religion to them. It's just a habit.
The old sales paradigm, which is the salesperson does whatever they want, as long as they produce the number, everything's cool. And we only start to manage them when they don't produce the number. That's the old one. And we manage them... Effectively, it's called managing someone out. Just because of modern restrictions around firing people. That's the old paradigm, but that paradigm doesn't allow you to dominate markets. And the reason it doesn't allow you to dominate markets is you can't manufacture trust as fast in that paradigm as a competitor can by using an alternative technique, which is talk to everyone. That's the real problem.
The real problem is that if you want to be in the innovation economy, which means you've got to bring new stuff to market, which brings into play the chasm. So if you can't just sit there and stand pat on your old stuff, but you've got to go, you've got to do new stuff because there are disruptors coming in because software is eating the world. So software will eventually eat you no matter what it is that you do. Did the car industry ever think software would eat the car industry? Imagine that. And you know what? Software ate the car industry.
Corey Frank (13:21):
Well, look at Siebel and Salesforce. I mean, there was a time when I first got into sales where Siebel was the dominant player in the marketplace. Nobody else was even close. And in a matter of a couple of years, this upstart Salesforce usurped them from this heavy integration, heavy software piece for sales automation software. And before that was Brock. Remember Brock was the big one and then Siebel came and then now Salesforce. And Salesforce has been able to continue to innovate, continue to throw new things at it, to maintain their position.
Chris Beall (14:51):
Yeah, this happens over and over. Whatever's heavy gets displaced by something lighter. The definition of software is it's lighter. It's lighter, it's more liquid, it moves faster and it opens up possibilities at the margin, business model possibilities. Salesforce's business model that was so radical was you could actually try it for free. And there was no install. I switched from Oracle to Salesforce in about a week. Million-dollar Oracle CRM implementation. Been going on and going on as part of this big ERP thing that we were doing. And this guy, Kevin Stoffel, who worked for me as my insights sales guide, a little team of four people, five people, whatever. He came to me one day and said, "I know we're doing this Oracle thing. I know that we're really working hard at it. I know we have this big investment going on. Is it okay if I try something else from my team because I'm tired of waiting."
I said, "Well, it's Kevin. I know you, you wouldn't be asking this question unless you already tried something else and it worked. So what is it?" He said, "Okay, this is called Salesforce." And I said, "Did you put data in it?" And he said, "Absolutely." "Is it delivering value?" He said, "Yeah." "You want to show it to me?" He says, "Yeah." He shows me a running CRM that his team's using every day and has been using for a week because he could upload a spreadsheet into it. Million-dollar Oracle implementation gets turned off immediately. That was in the unit of change. The unit of change was you could try it for free... Because Salesforce was softer software than Oracle. Oracle was hard software. We had to run it on our machines. We had to integrate it with this and that, programmers got involved, project managers...
Imagine a little company, really a tiny company, $42 million a year company with more than 20 million a year of that being from cutting two gold master CDs a year and sending them to Germany, needing to go through a year of consulting and integration and whatever. And here this guy comes along, this unassuming kid from Iowa, Dubuque of all places. If you can imagine somebody coming out of Dubuque and doing this. And he goes, "Well, I just tried this thing over here and it seems to work pretty well." Boom. Done.
And then what is the next unit of change? Somebody, me, who believes in that company's ability to deliver in a wider range of circumstances. So I go and start Finish Line Floors. Do I go build an ERP system? No, I took Salesforce. I spent... And I logged this. I spent 16 hours and 33 minutes working on Salesforce in order to make it into a full-blown ERP system for a floor finishing company, including data gathered from the field and pictures coming in and analysis and the whole bet. So softer software. because it was even softer in another way. And it was configurable and programmable and I didn't need programmers, blah, blah, blah... Ate something else. It ate an ERP system that I never bought, which I probably would have had to buy or build. Software eats the world because of its liquidity and flexibility and ability to have short cycle times to value. Look at our company. Our cycle time to value is the shortest in the history of business. One day you go from not touching it to at this moment, at this very instant-
Corey Frank (18:11):
They say, "Listen, Chris, I've done all this work. I've had all these conversations. I'm still not getting market dominance." And you can say, "No, but you can look at this different view, Corey. It looks a scatter chart. It looks like a Jackson Pollock painting, and it needs to be more focused on a particular market. You think you're having conversations that are concentrated or that all conversations are pretty equal. The conversation that has greater atomic weight when they are focused on a particular market. So you have a list problem, Corey." As an example, right?
Chris Beall (18:45):
Or I could say, "We can analyze these conversations," for the cold ones in particular, which are oddly the most important because you only have seven seconds once. You have one shot to move the needle. Now, fortunately, if you fail, as long as you don't fail in a memorable way, thank God you're not memorable, then you can go take another shot, but it's effectively a cold call, even though it will be in this followup list.
Corey Frank (19:17):
As long as you don't fail in a memorable way. That's crazy.
Chris Beall (19:17):
I mean, thank God salespeople are not memorable. But if you fail in a memorable way, when you have the follow-up, you could have a problem. But so it comes down to, are you talking to a list that makes sense? That's your 808 dials here. When you talk to them, to those individuals, do you talk to them in a way in which you establish that you are on their side, that you see the world their way and that you're competent to solve a problem they have right now?
And this is where this whole different anatomy of a cold call comes about. We really need to get into it because that's... I mean, I keep saying it's interesting. To me, it's just fascinating that we're at a point in history where the capitalist revolution is over because there's no longer any need for capital to do the classic thing we did in business, which makes factories. Software is eating the world. Innovations and the pace of flow of innovations is up, but the process of taking those innovations to market has gotten more difficult rather than easier. And if you can take innovation to market as a whole product and dominate that market, you'll mentally live to fight another day, but you might be able to dominate another market. And if you have the ability to dominate markets as a core capability of your company, then you can do anything you want in business, including acquiring other companies and all this other stuff. Because you own this innovation engine, the real hard part, which is taking it to market.
But when you come right down to it, you have to manufacture units of trust. And to do that, you have seven seconds. And within those seven seconds, you have to do two things. And one of those things requires, in the traditional paradigm, requires guesswork. And the guests that we traditionally make is that the problem we solve is the problem that is on this prospect's mind at this moment. When Chris Voss said, "Right now," to me that evening, when he said, "You need to show this person that you're competent to solve a problem they have right now," it was the words right now that blew my brain out. Because I just suddenly realized, wait a minute, the problem this person has right now is me. And it turns out the secret to the whole damned thing is for me to actually say, "I am the problem." And to offer a solution to the problem that is me. And that moves the trust needle every time.
And this is where our customers, when we teach them this, get confused because they then go back to the traditional model and say, "Yeah, but did it produce a meeting?" And that's not the point. The point is 103 million... That was what I said, a hundred and... This little test drive here, at 103... or 108 million bits of information, most of which were not in the words. This is the other part that's hard for people to understand is within those seven seconds, I can only get out so many words. I can probably say 40 words. Let's try to see how many words there are. "I know I'm in an interruption." That's five. "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" That's eleven. So 16 words are emitted during that time. So those 16 words average in this case, I think six or seven characters each. So 16 times six, times eight, that's only about 768 bits of information. That's not very much. 768 bits. And yet those 16 words took seven seconds. And in those seven seconds, there are 140,000 bits of information that I've omitted.
While all the rest of it's the tone of voice, it's prosody, it's what do I sound like? It's who do I sound like? Do I sound like somebody you can trust? So this brings down the talent issue to something that real people don't think about, which is the quality of the voice. I'll call it obvious sincerity of the human being who is having that first seven-second conversation, is the key to market dominance. The script's purpose, the 768 bits of information, role is to be like a surfboard. The job of the surfboard is not to ride the wave. Throw surfboards in the ocean all day long. And you will not have very many artistic wave riding experiences. Surfboards just bob around and do whatever they do. And every once in a while, one of them comes in on a wave and stays on it for a while. Nothing very interesting happens. You put a surfer on the surfboard, constrained by the surfboard. They can't walk around anywhere else on the water. They can only walk around on that tiny little floaty thing that they got underneath them and a fairly small amount of that. But if their skill is high and their courage is there, they know that they're doing within that script, that is the surfboard, they can express their personality.
Corey Frank (24:42):
Let me talk about that for a second. First of all, I love that analogy. The script is your surfboard. The surfer is the tone and the sincerity and who wields that tool.
Chris Beall (24:51):
Yes.
Corey Frank (24:53):
So James... What's the gentleman's name? James Wahlberg. He does the videos... I love his-
Chris Beall (24:57):
[Thornburg 00:24:57].
Corey Frank (24:57):
Thornburg, right? And I love his breakthrough script, but his value prop that he delivers, I think that's where the hiccup is because his tone is exceptional. Very empathetic. His pacing is a masterclass. His body language just gets into it. I mean, he doesn't have a hundred calls. He has one call a hundred times. I mean, he is just the Iceman. He does not leave his wingman. I love it. But it just seems that... though far be it from me... I don't know. I respect the hell out of him for doing it, but it seems like he could do some help on that initial big idea. That seemed to be where he's missing a lot of his success. Now [Brandy 00:25:46] is not the sexiest product, but I still think that's irrelevant.
Chris Beall (25:49):
Yeah. Well, it's a pure trust product too. I mean, it's got the issue that it's a funny kind of software. It's to do this analysis. He is reluctant to talk about a breakthrough because of his own personality. I've actually taken him through the entire messaging workshop. And this is what I do a lot of now, is messaging workshops. And the more sophisticated somebody is, the less likely they are to like the message that we come up with. They're still thinking [crosstalk 00:26:20].
Corey Frank (26:22):
I think he's close. I think really he's so close.
Chris Beall (26:23):
He's close. But I'm happy to have him out there amusing the masses. It works like crazy, but it is true that the surfboard constrains the performance. But I'd rather have a master surfer on a shitty surfboard than the other way... than me on the best surfboard in the world. You put me out there on a wave and you're not going to get much because I wouldn't even get up on the board.
The United States of the mid 19th century is ripe with stories of its timeless legends and colorful characters who helped weave the historical events that defined the Great American West. The stories and movies about the adventures of lonesome cowboys, men with black hats, or brave lawmen of the Old West who clashed frequently in conflicts such as the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, the duals in the dusty streets of Virginia City, and tales of quick justice in Dodge City, continue to capture our imagination.
When we talk of cowboys and other figures of the Wild West, we immediately picture a man on horseback. But no cowboy would roam the West or walk the streets without a gun…and such a gritty figure would most likely wield a very distinctive long-barreled revolver called the Colt 45. In fact, no gun in the Old West was as important or left such an indelible mark as the Colt Single Action Army Revolver, or more widely known simply as the Colt Peacemaker.
It was said that "God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal."
And why it was called the Peacemaker and the “Great Equalizer” is as related to business and market dominance today as a cowboy is related to his boots.
The Colt 45 leveled the competitive playing field because it equalized the relationship among fighting males…especially in the strong honor culture of the Old West, where discipline was enforced through one on one combat and duals deriving from even the faintest slight. So much so that the reason people used to be more polite back then could be argued that it was not because they were nicer people, it's because you might get killed otherwise. And that, as my fellow co-host Chris Beall would say, was considered to be a great inconvenience. join us for this episode of Market Dominance Guys.
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ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:48):
The United States of the mid 19th century is ripe with stories of its timeless legends and colorful characters who helped weave the historical events that defined the great American West. The stories and movies about the adventures of lonesome cowboys or men with black hats or brave lawman of the old West, who clashed frequently in conflict, such as the OK Corral, the dusty streets of Virginia City or the quick justice that was meted out in Dodge City, continue to capture our imagination. And when we talk of Cowboys and other figures of the wild West, we immediately picture a man on horseback, but no cowboy would roam the West or walk the streets without a gun and such a gritty figure would most likely wield a very distinctive long barreled revolver called the Colt 45. In fact, no gun in the old West was as important or left such an indelible mark as the Colt single action army revolver, or more widely known today, simply, as the Colt peacemaker.
It was said that God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal and why it was called the peacemaker and the great equalizer is as related to business and market dominance today, as a cowboy is related to its boots. The Colt 45 leveled the competitive playing field, because it equalized the relationship amongst fighting males, especially in the strong honor culture of the old West, where discipline and honor was enforced through one-on-one combat or duals deriving from even the faintest slight. So much so that the reason people used to be more polite back then could be argued that it was not because they were nicer people, it's because you might get killed otherwise. And that as my fellow co-host Chris Beall would say, was considered to be a great inconvenience. And business came out of that culture so much that software today is really the equivalent of strapping on a six shooter and a Colt 45 and for most aspects, really equalizing the business playing field, because even a little guy without an awful lot of capital or physical fighting power, just armed with software, packs enough punch so that he or she is a threat to any larger company, or at least can compete enough to make their own mark and begin to influence and impact a market on their own.
And software's the 2020 example of the Colt 45 Peacemaker. Anyone can attack anyone else in business, even without saddlebags of venture money. So it makes complete sense then that the company that's trying to make money from its innovation needs to dominate a market as quickly as possible, because to dominate quickly means to dissuade the many soon to come ankle biters, freshly armed with software themselves who just arrived in town and now want to pick a gunfight with you. So in this episode, Chris arms us with a little knowledge, a little wisdom and some good old fashioned street fighting tricks to hold our own and to grow our lead after we embark on a market dominance mission. Welcome to this week's episode of the Market Dominance Guys, entitled, "High Noon: Facing the Black Hats Who Are Trying to Take Your Market."
Chris Beall (04:35):
Question is is it okay to tell a sales rep how to do their job, what tools to use or technologies to use, process to follow? And it comes all the way down to this ancient question about what is the relationship to sales itself to a company and its strategy. So under the old paradigm, which came to us from, as we were talking about before the roots of capitalism, where capital is deployed to create the means of production that is factories full of machines with people tending the machines, or maybe it was some people doing things by hand or whatever, but capital is deployed in order to build something repeatably in that something turns into inventory, finished goods inventory, and that inventory must be disposed of and turned back into cash in order to make the cycle work. Right? So what that always suggested was well sales is this external function that just sits out there somewhere in the world.
And as long as they dispose of the inventory in a way that's reasonably efficient and they don't take too big a cut, then it's not really relevant to the future of the business. The inventory must be disposed of, sales must be good enough, but we certainly don't want it inside the company, because then it turns into overhead. That is when there's nothing to sell, then we carry the sales person. So, and the classic evolution of business through, I'll call it the capitalist revolution that occurred as a concomitant of the industrial revolution, hand in hand, we ended up with this model of the salesperson as effectively kind of an independent contractor. And it shows up in how we compensate salespeople, where we compensate them with variable compensation, with commissions based on what they sell. And the ultimate, most respected kind of salesperson is the pure commission rep, who is a lone wolf who does whatever they do.
And they run their territory the way that they want to run it. And it doesn't really matter if some mix of their Rolodex, their charm, bribes given and taken, whatever it happens to be. Now that's in the form of say nice dinners or whatever it happens to be, right? It doesn't really matter because ultimately if the sales rep decides to put more of their own money into selling and take as a result, [inaudible 00:06:48] who really cares, right? And so in this new formulation where there is no finished goods inventory, where all interesting products are manufactured instantaneously at the point of consumption, which is what's true of software... Back to the question, I guess.. Remember who's it is, it was somebody, Seth Godin or somebody talking about software... Maybe it was Marc Andreessen said, said software is eating the world, right?
And what it means is software eats the world because there is no need to carry finished goods inventory. That's at its core why software eats the world because you don't need any of it. Actually, there never is any software in that sense. It doesn't exist as a deliverable, you just experience it by interacting with it and then since software has moved into the cloud, you don't even need the damn hardware anymore. So now it's a magic trick where you say, "I want some, now I could go out right now." In fact, we're doing it right now, we're in Zoom video. I don't recall ever becoming aware of or interacting with or downloading or getting a machine for any software for Zoom Video. It never happened, right? And yet we're consuming something that is as sophisticated as any remote video experience ever was.
The kind where you would buy a screen and put it up in a conference room and you'd have hardware to do this and that. So software eats the world primarily because it doesn't exist, which has is its main strength. But it blows up conceptually, the relationship between sale and the company that's trying to make money from its innovation and that needs to dominate a market in order to stay alive because with increased fluidity, as software goes and eats the world, software also basically says, and anyone can attack anyone in business. Everyone's armed with... Software is the equivalent of six shooter and the Colt 45. Now the gun that tamed the West, right? Why? Because a little guy without an awful lot of physical fighting power suddenly was the equal with any man. That's why it's called the great equalizer, right? The great equalizer was the Colt 45. It equalized the relationship among fighting males.
And in the honor cultures out of which the United States drew it stock, it's rootstock, came out of a number of honor cultures where discipline was enforced through duel. And so the reason people used to be polite was not because they were nicer people, it's because you might get killed otherwise. And that was considered to be a great inconvenience. So there was this sort of universal discipline mechanism, which is you get your honor is questioned and something had to happen, right? So here we came out of that culture and we had an equalizer and now software is the great equalizer among business and businesses that don't understand this, that think that they're protected by the old protection which all looked like capital and access to supply chain, and being threatened by businesses that have no need for supply chain, that have no need for capital.
In fact, you're seeing that even in the venture finance software world, nowadays. Venture capitalists will no longer fund the creation of software. How about that? 20 years ago, venture capital was the primary way we funded the creation of innovative software. The software revolution was built... I'll go back to the beginning of my career. So I did my first startup in 1983, and we had a little bit of software that a guy had written in his basement, so to speak, actually sitting on the edge of his water bed in Boulder, Colorado. And it was just enough to intrigue one of the top venture capitalists at that time. In fact at the top of the class of 83, it was a fund called the Masters Fund in Boulder, Colorado of all places, right? And Boulder became and still is the number one per capita software shop in the world.
Corey Frank (10:39):
Really?
Chris Beall (10:40):
Yeah. Still is. And it all came out of that period in 1983 to 19, probably 88, 89, when there was this flowering of software companies and the venture capitalists at the time knew that the trick was to get them early and fund the development of their first product. So ideas were funded and turned into products backed then and then software ate the world so bad so to speak that even that little piece of inventory building went away and now anyone can build anything. I just hooked up a relationship between a 17 year old software developer and a very experienced kind of really [inaudible 00:11:22] entrepreneur out of the investment banking world who wants to revolutionize something about investment banking. And late fifties, almost 60 year old guy, who happens to know everything there is to know about algorithmic valuation of companies. And it's entirely possible that the three of them will end up building a multi-billion dollar revolution out of nothing more than a 17 year old's time that he can find while going to school, still going to high school, and an old guy's knowledge of how to solve a particular problem using algorithms.
You think about that. Think about the entire investment banking industry could be blown up, destroyed, by that little triad of people coming together with no venture capital whatsoever, until their product is filled, until they know that it works. And until it's dangerous, disruptive, you want to see a Colt 45 play the role of a Gatling gun. So that change, what's so interesting about that in the sales world is sales is still run as though we live in a capitalist society, but we live in a post-capitalist society where there's actually no role for capital in production anymore. Capital plays almost no role in production. Now, if you're Elon Musk, you need capital in order to do something else. Look at Tesla that the capital in Tesla isn't tied up in Tesla's factory. The capital is tied up in the speculative nature of how they sell their cars.
The fact that they sell their cars ahead, they actually reversed the inventory flow completely, backwards. You sign up to buy a Tesla two years from now, when you're getting a leading edge Tesla. And so the orders are already there and cash is already there, but you need more in order to de-risk the production cycle itself. The question is no longer, "Can we make the cars?" It's no longer, "Can we dispose of the inventory?" There is no inventory. The inventory is in Elon Musk's hand. It's a rate of production of a car that has never been built. Copy number zero doesn't even know. And so in his head, which he sells to the stock market and sells to the people buying the cars, there are these future cars. Want to buy my car that doesn't exist. So the car itself looks exactly like software at that point.
It's a specification for a product that doesn't exist that will be delivered just in time when it's made to you often some [inaudible 00:13:36] future. Please pony up a hefty deposit and I will use that deposit and go leverage that up in the stock market in order to see if I can build this car in time for you. And if I don't, you wait, and all this flex occurs, right? So we have this... And what did they do with their sales model? They just basically said, "Oh you know the old sales model where the car dealership is the territory, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Not going to do that."
Chris Beall (14:57):
We're just not going to do that. You can just go online and buy a Tesla. That's how you do it. You can go to a little showroomy thing, right? But there's no sales force in there to sell to you. They don't even know how to sell a Tesla. No human being knows how to sell a Tesla. So Tesla's their software and so there's an industry where you'd think, "Well, I still need the whole capital thing for the supply chain. I need all this stuff," but it turns out you don't. You need believers in the potential value of having this piece of software that happens to roll around on four wheels.
Corey Frank (15:28):
So believers, not capital.
Chris Beall (15:28):
Yeah.
Corey Frank (15:28):
The believers are the new capital.
Chris Beall (15:29):
The believers are the new capital and sales, the job of sales in the innovation economy, is to manufacture believers.
Corey Frank (15:35):
So the job... Say that one more time. The job of the-
Chris Beall (15:38):
The job of sales in the innovation economy is to manufacture believers.
Corey Frank (15:42):
That's huge, Chris. To pivot on a different type of currency, right? So what we've talked about last time is that I have to wait for this congruence of the prospect and the sales person to hit. And if they don't buy at that intersection point, right? Most sales folks will trash that prospect, but what's the percentage of, is it one out of 12?
Chris Beall (16:05):
One out of 12 are in market at any given quarter.
Corey Frank (16:07):
Right. So my job is to make believers of the 11 of 12 that aren't buying and eventually close the one of 12 that is.
Chris Beall (16:16):
Exactly.
Corey Frank (16:16):
But the 11 of the 12 still have a currency that doesn't show up on the immediate balance sheet that I have to be aware of, hyper-aware of.
Yes. And we can actually... It's possible to measure the shadow balance sheet. This is a [inaudible 00:16:31] shadow asset, and you measure it simply by the outcome of conversations and the probability of future conversations, that each one of those individuals you talk with, you can come up with a probability that they'll still be around when you talk to them again, probability that they come into market. So one out of 11 turns in to one out of 10 to one out of nine to one out of eight. Eventually you compress them against the end of that cycle. Where it's like counting cards. I used to be a blackjack player. And as you get down to the bottom of the deck, eventually every card will be dealt, right? If you're dealing all the way through in the abstract, right? And in the real casino, of course, they shuffle early in order to avoid this problem. But the statistically compressed deck scares the casino because the counter can know too much.
And this is a silly story, but I remember sitting there at the old what is now The Stratosphere, I'm trying to remember what it used to be called. And in third base and playing my two hands, I think I was playing at the time, I was being polite because there were some people at the table and every card in the deck that was left was a 10 and the dealer was showing a six and I knew it. So I'm just splitting in halves, right? And people are freaking out. I mean, some guy wanted to get in a fist fight with me, which I can assure him there were better ways that we could interact about this question of whether I was an idiot, but he was convinced that I was an idiot. And I didn't have to think, I just happened to know every single card left in the deck and said, "I can't see it's a 10."
And therefore I'm taking 10s until we run out a deck. Right? Well, this is what happens to that cycle. At first, only one in 12 cards so to speak, one in 12 of the people I talk to is potentially in market. And now I need to turn as many of those of the one out of 12 into believers as possible in order to fuel my movement into the market, because I need to have real customers because my customers within a market are my units of referenceability and referenceability is how I lower my marginal cost and marginal risk of entering that market more deeply. Every time I get a customer and a customer is successful with my product, he just bought my product and was not successful, right? That fact makes the next customer easier to sell, the next prospect easier to turn into a customer. So I have a manufacturing process where I'm manufacturing believers and an ever lower cost and an ever increased value.
So that asset has this weird quality. This is why exponentials are exponentials. The rate of flow of that asset, the net new customers that are coming in and becoming customers, actually increases the flow rate. And when flow rates get multiplied by increases of flow rate, that's the next [inaudible 00:19:08]. That's where the curves go like this and the amount of time it takes to dominate the market has to do with when that curve crosses a particular threshold, which is kind of the 50% plus one is what people say. It's not really the case. It's really a probabilistic thing. Are you going to own main street is the real question. Are you going to become the standard? When you become the standard, you own that market, and you really should reduce your sales effort and take your best salespeople and put them on another market. Bad habit to leave salespeople around in dominated markets.
It's almost like, you ever play Monopoly and there's couple of different types of people who play Monopoly, right? The traditional way to play Monopoly is that the Atlanta or Continental or Baltic, and you don't buy it, you're saving your money for the Marvin Gardens and the-
Chris Beall (19:54):
Park Place.
Corey Frank (19:56):
Park Place, right? And there's those folks that just wait for chance, just wait for simple chance of the marketplace that they're going to land and they're eventually going to get a Monopoly on those yellows or those greens or the Park Place of the world. And then with the aggressive, kind of the new way that you play Monopoly, is wherever you land, you just buy it, because you never know when the light blues or the pinks, et cetera. You're going to monetize every role of the dice today. [inaudible 00:20:24] but maybe on your 17th turn, monetized your activity on your second roll of the dice.
And I almost see kind of what you're postulating here, right? Is that saying, it's that, listen, stop trying to look at the marketplace as this one in 12 congruence of time, of fate, and that your success is hinges on that one in 12 chance. No matter how good your messaging is, no matter how good the timing is, you could still only close one of 12, but the activities behind [inaudible 00:20:58] interactions still have a currency, still have an atomic weight that you have to see in the abstract, in the higher level, in the strategic view, if you will. And that's what I love about what you're postulating here.
Chris Beall (21:11):
It's so interesting because it comes down to then the question of how do we manage sales? Because if we're managing sales for the quarter, which is what is the tradition, then what we get is the behavior that is within the quarter, that is the sales person's effort goes to making their number. And when they make their number, we're happy, right? And this is what I just heard from this sales manager, actually was a sales ops guy, but it was somebody in that world in this big company and their theory is, "Well, if the reps like it, they can use this tool," this ConnectAndSell tool as they call it, "Then they can use it. And if they don't well, that's up to them, but if they don't make their number, then we're going to encourage them more strongly to use this technology." Right? And the reason for that isn't that they're foolish.
The reason is they're just living in an old paradigm. The old paradigm being the rep has the territory. The rep manages the territory. And the goal is to dispose of the inventory. And so, as long as the rep is disposing of the inventory, which is it makes the quota, then we're all good. And it doesn't matter how they do it. It doesn't matter if they wave a magic wand or drive around in circles, it just doesn't matter a matter. But the real question at any given point is what are you doing with the 11 out of 12? What you're doing with the one out of 12 is you found them and they're probably going to buy, unless you're an idiot. So then the question is, well, what are you doing with the 11 out of 12? And the answer is, if you want to dump in a market, the 11 out of 12, when you speak to them, anybody in that set, you need to move the trust needle in your direction as a human being.
That is the classic other answer is, "Well we'll give them information." The 11 out of 12, right? "We'll give them information. We certainly don't want to waste time in a discovery call with them. Discovery conversation would be a total waste. Oh, we might spend 15 minutes or half an hour talking to them. And then they don't buy. That's such a failure. So sad." Right? So let's send them some marketing information, some collateral, and this and that. Well, nobody has generated a trust relationship ever with a brochure. Like, "I trust this brochure," is a nonsense statement. It just doesn't happen. People trust people and, by the way, people trust people and people only. We are wired to trust carefully and then we're also wired to trust increasingly until somebody shows they can't be trusted. So it's a threshold. It's a very funny looking curve, right?
Trust works like this. It's generally negative. And then if I decide that I trust you, it goes way up like this, but I'm strongly biased in favor of interpreting everything you do as good till you betray me. And when you betray me, then my trust goes to hugely negative and I never trust you again, right? How does trust work in the long run? But that's not the company's problem when they're going to market with an innovation. The problem is no one knows them and no one trusts them at the beginning and they need to exchange about 600,000 bits of information with everyone in their market that they can talk to with one and only one purpose, which is to move the trust needle above where it is today through an interchange of information, which starts with somebody making the approach, right? This is just classic sales. If you want to control your market, you have to make the approach and you have to initiate an interchange of information designed to get the other person to correctly trust you.
It's so simple when you think about it, right? And when you think about what do we measure salespeople for? Exactly none of those things are measured. Not one of those things is measured. Do we measure how many people that they interact with, how much information they interchange, whether they move the trust needle or not. And if so, how much? This is the essence of peeling your market off against competitors and this is actually why at the beginning of a market domination exercise, you should talk to more people per day than toward the end of it. For two reasons, one is you start running out of them because you're selling to some and then learning that others are fundamentally not in your market and whatever your idea of your market is, which you turn into a list, ends up having false positives in it. And it must have false positives because you can't know in advance the conversations and getting the information back.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
You've been listening to market dominance, guys, radio sponsored by ConnectAndSell right here in the Funnel Radio Channel.
For at-work listeners, like you.
Almost 400 years ago, in the early 17th century in Europe, tulip bulbs were considered hard currency. 200 years ago, many islanders of the South Pacific used bleached seashells to flaunt their wealth. 100 years ago, many Texans measured their success by how many heads of cattle they ran. And today, my 8-year-old measures his wealth by the rare skins and VBucks he accumulates through his Fortnite gaming efforts. But today, if you’re a CEO or senior business leader in B2B tech markets, you may also have an alternative form of capital that should be leveraged in every way that the currency in your bank account is currently deployed: If you have created the function of an SDR team – regardless of the size - they are indeed a source of capital that operates in many ways like traditional capital and is also liquid.
Since our focus at the Market Dominance Guys is lending a hand to companies and offering techniques and insight to market penetration, transitioning to NEW and additional markets may be something that isn’t at the top of the list. But, Geoffrey Moore argues – as we discussed in an earlier episode about his book, “Crossing the Chasm” - that breaking into any market is an aggressive act. And as such, Moore proposes a specific and consistent and testable strategy for moving from one market to the next with success. And testing and entering a new market is often a much more simple exercise than many realize…especially if you have the alternative capital – SDRs – to invest in it. It is through your SDR team, after all, that is the means by which you're going to identify the ripeness and opportunity that exists in a new market.
With their number one job to be an instrument of market exploration and their number two job to be an instrument of market expansion.
That’s why, in essence, the mighty cold call is the essence of this entire market domination thing. Namely, can you hire and train and coach your SDRs to speak empathetically enough to get the prospect to trust them enough in 30 seconds and be curious enough that this curiosity can be transformed into commitment, and that this commitment will turn into the action of actually showing for the meeting.
In this episode, we explore the power of deploying SDRs…how, how many, and when…and why the more markets our SDRs can validate, the less our chances are of going out of business. This is the Market Dominance Guys and this week’s episode, “How Many SDRs does it take to Change a Lightbulb?”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Almost 400 years ago in the early 17th century in Europe, tulip bulbs, the flowers were considered hard currency. 200 years ago, many Islanders of the South Pacific used bleached seashells to flaunt their wealth. A hundred years ago, many Texans measured their success by how many heads of cattle that they ran. And today I can say that my eight year old son measures his wealth by the rare skins and V-bucks he accumulates through his Fortnite gaming efforts. But today, if you're a CEO or senior business leader in B2B Tech, you may also have an alternative form of capital that should be leveraged in every way that the currency in your bank account is currently deployed.
If you've created the function of an SDR team, regardless of their size, they are indeed a source of capital that operates in many ways like traditional capital and is also liquid. Since our focus at the Market Dominance Guys is lending a hand to companies and offering techniques and insight to market penetration, transitioning to new and additional markets may be something that isn't at the top of many lists. But Jeffrey Moore argues as we discussed in an earlier episode about his book, Crossing the Chasm, that breaking into any market is an aggressive act. And as such, Moore proposes a specific, and consistent, and testable, strategy for moving from one market to the next with success. And testing and entering a new market is often a much more simple exercise, however, then many realize. Especially if you have the alternative capital of these SDRs to invest in it. It is through your SDR team after all that, the means by which you're going to identify the ripeness and opportunity that exists in a new market will actually occur.
With the number one job of an SDR to be an instrument of market exploration. And understanding that the number two job of an SDR is to be an instrument of market expansion. That's why in essence, the mighty cold call is still the key cog in this entire market domination thing. Namely, can you hire, and train, and coach your SDRs to speak empathetically enough to get the prospect to trust them enough in 30 seconds, and be curious enough that this curiosity can be transformed into commitment? And that that commitment will turn into the action of actually showing for the meeting.
So in this episode, we explore the power of deploying SDRs, how, how many, and when. And why the more markets our SDRs can validate the less our chances are of going out of business. This is the Market Dominance Guys in this week's episode entitled, How Many SDRs Does It Take to Change a Light bulb?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
The cold call today, done by an SDR who believes in the potential value of the meeting, for the human being that they're talking to, in the downside case where there's no business to be done ever, not just today, but ever. That cold call done by that SDR is the equivalent of the assignment of a territory to a good rep in the past.
So my unit of go-to-market the past was get a good rep with a Rolodex, and give them a territory. Why the Rolodex? Because the rep is referenceable within the Rolodex. So it's like, "Why not?" Right? I get myself a market. What's a market? The rep's territory. That was the brilliant act of the past. No longer even interesting. The brilliant act of right now, is one cold call by one competent SDR into a list that is a hypothesis about a self-referencing market.
Why is it so important? Because without it, without that cold call, we can't have a shot at getting enough information back and forth between us and somebody else to get them to come to a meeting where they might confess their desperation. It's a chain of value that goes along. And if you break that chain by refusing to do the cold call, you cannot dominate a market by starting with a list. And you have to rely on your product being magic. And occasionally products are magic and it fools everybody. So SaaStr is all about. The whole SaaStr thing, go to SaaStr. What is it really about? Let's all go into a room that may or may not have dart boards in it. Let's close our eyes and throw the darts really, really fast. And every once in a while, we'll hear a little satisfying thump and somebody will say, "Bull's-eye." That's it. That's it. And then they dress it up with a bunch of words about what you might be doing.
But the right thing to do is, to go find a room where there's just a couple of you in there, turn the lights on. But you still can't see the [inaudible 00:06:13] and you're not that good at throwing darts. And here's the dart board I'm going after and go, "Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop" With good technique. And eventually you'll get a bull's-eye. Darts are funny, they're magnetic. So now future darts will tend toward the bull's-eye because they're attracted to the first one. And over time you get a big cluster there, and now you can blindly throw darts, and they're all going to go in there. At which point the right thing to do is find another room. So it's a different world we live in because of software. Because everything is software now, whether it says it's software, it doesn't say it software, it's all software. And software moves liquidly through the world. And I need to overcome the challenge that it appears to be good for everything.
So this brings you to the next thing, which is when somebody says... I have one today, by the way, there's a test drive we're doing today with a company. They do root cause analysis, training, and software. And what do they say right there on their website? "This can be applied in any domain." Therefore they're going to stay small, and be a consulting business. Because as soon as you say it's for everything, it's for nothing.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
As soon as you say it's for everything, it's for nothing. And so many businesses fall into that.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
Or worse, they'll do that in the VC pitch. What's the application, what's the use case? "Oh, any market whatsoever." Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
And even worse, VCs will encourage it. I've got somebody in my CEO group, has this incredibly powerful technology, but they apply to trading, high-frequency trading. It's a nuclear weapon for high-frequency trading. It's a way of turning software into hardware. Reliable, by pushing a button, it turns software into hardware that executes with a thousand times less latency. I'm sure there's other domains for it. The VCs looked at it and went, "Gee, that's a little narrow, just trading. Show us that you have more imagination that you can apply it to other things."
So the poor entrepreneur looks at it and goes, "Oh, I better go develop some of that stuff." Okay. Well, what's the biggest thing that shows the most imagination? Smart cities. Can you imagine selling a smart city? I can't even conceive of what you would do. Who would you approach? [crosstalk 00:08:28] these smart cities?
Speaker 5 (08:30):
The sales process alone would bankrupt the company.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Exactly, [inaudible 00:08:37] VC.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
You're talking three years.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Yeah. Three years to get the first proper meeting, and then God knows what's going to happen. It's an opaque. So anyway, so to come back to all this, what's interesting to me and the talk that I'm now giving over and over is this: way over here is strategy, and we used to execute strategy by M&A, because you buy the territories, and you buy the product lines. It's wonderful, right?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I bought another company. I'm in the Western US, they're in the Eastern. It's more common. The buyers in the East, somebody has done a similar thing in the West, and you buy them. You get all the territories. Yay. It's wonderful. It's just the coolest thing in the world. That used to work, right? How do I do that in a world where it's now software, my territories all overlap, the geography doesn't mean anything. What am I doing? And then how do I compete with private equity, which doesn't have to integrate. Their risk of failure in private equity is very low. My risk of failure when I buy a company and integrate it into mine is essentially 90%.
So private equity spends 10 cents on the dollar for the same product, once risk adjusted. So they don't even have to have more money than me. Then they want machine that's looking for them all the time, so they see all the good stuff, and I'm an amateur part-time guy with my little Corp Dev group, going out, looking for what they can get. You just can't compete with that shit man. You can't. And every example that says you can is a false example, that's the false positive. "Oh, look, that one worked for so-and-so." Well, you're not in there. You don't know what really is going on. It's probably a mess. It's probably not working they're just dressing up because they don't want to look like a failure.
There you are with strategy. Got to take more markets. Why? Because my market that I'm dominating now will eventually be subject to either competitive or secular forces. Probably secular change of technology or changing economy. And I will be unable to cover all my overhead from the gross profit flow of that market. If I'm down to one. This is that game of risk where you don't want.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
I've been there.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So eventually I'm going to lose, but at least I'm alive now. If my number is zero, I got another problem. So going back to your original question, what do you do first? Find a market that you currently dominate, and ask yourself what the gross profit flow is off that, and how big your company could be. That's contingency plan to shrink to that size if you ever need to.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
There you go. So that's the triage that I have to do. I may have to cut off a limb or two to save the whole body. If I find myself in that position, where listen, I'm not growing. I'm growing 10 to 12% a year, minimally. Whereas my competitors are getting noisier, my sales reps, my SDRs are running into that more and more. I thought I had a head start and I blew my head start. I blew my capital on initiatives, or marketing, or websites that don't mean anything.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
SDR teams calling people they shouldn't be talking to. False top of the funnel. You're top of the funnel should be this big around, because it's like, "We're going after this." They go, "No, talk to everybody." "Why?" "Because we ran out of people to talk to you." "What?" And we have the team. The team is now the factory. When you hit it directly, the SDR team plays the role of the factory. That is they spend money, but they don't produce anything. They don't produce a product.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
But that's a fundamental error, is that the top of the funnel with a company that has SDRs needs to be as narrow as possible, not as broad as possible.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
And the tip needs to be the smallest possible.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
And the smallest possible.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
I mean, this is kind of why we're in business. We let you run that SDR team. Like we won't put this in the book who it is, but we can say it here.
(Bleep)
They're using an STR team of 11 to take the entire (Bleep) services market, which is projected to be a trillion dollar market. They're smart. If you just did the math on that, instead of you have to talk to, your SDR team would be, it'd be the same size as (Bleep) is going to be, which is 450 people.
The difference between carrying 11 people and 450 people is not a difference of size. It's a difference in time.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
You're a radically different company. This is what happened, in addition to everything else to... What was that insurance company that everybody loved so much out of Silicon Valley, they were going to revolutionize the... I can't even remember their names. Are they still in business? I talked to the guy who was going to Phoenix to hire 300 people. And I asked him, "Would you like to get the job done with 20?"
Announcer (14:12):
And he said, "No, the VCs have told me my job is to hire 300 people."
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Well, there's currency in large teams for these companies. Look at the Silicon Valley model, we see at Chris here in Phoenix. When [inaudible 00:14:26]. You have companies, obviously this is off the record, but you see companies like (Bleep) and (Bleep). As these companies, they get all this capital and they grow the footprint. And (Bleep) ultimate downfall was they tried to go into show many markets their sales, their SDRs, were working in hallways and three to a desk calling people from LinkedIn, sourcing people from everywhere, just trying to get... And they were poorly trained. They didn't pass their licensure.
And it was one thing after another and it just kind of fell apart. So they didn't have a narrow scope out of the gate. They just wanted to cross that chasm, and parachute airdrop to the other side, by thinking, we're just going to throw cannon fodder at it. And that's exactly what led to their downfall.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Yeah. They ran good slight twitch, which was they had not had the experience of the relationship between the rate of regulatory compliance as needed, that is the creation of people who are allowed to sell, and their behavior in the marketplace, to the market's demand. They didn't understand that. They just made it up. It was like draw a line on a graph. And then when you're off by a little, you're carrying this huge weight. It's like building a factory for a product you don't know that anybody needs. You're deploying capital, and the capital is going to...
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
And your ability to get rid of it fast is pretty limited. It's where what's above the line actually plays the role of overhead. If I don't apply the steel to make the car, I don't have to pay for the steel. The excess that I happen to have an inventory, my buffer, is my risk. That's all I've got. And I can, I can sell it. I can salvage it out. I can sell it to somebody else at 40 cents on the dollar, 20 cents on the dollar, or whatever. So I am only liable for the net, times the time it's going to take me to offload this when I realize that I don't need it for production.
We don't execute with that discipline on the top of the funnel sales process. We don't treat those people like a bunch of steel that's sitting there in inventory for cars that it turns out nobody wants for our Edsels.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
We don't do it. We kind of do it like this, "Well, I guess that didn't work."
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Well, I think a couple of things as we're getting to the top of the hour. So I think next time let's continue to explore how do I unscrew this light bulb? How do I reverse these effects of aging? I think that's a good exercise because that that'll give people hope that I don't have to just start a new company. That's like, "I don't have to take apart all the Legos. If I missed a step. I can create something still pretty sensible out of the legal pieces that are already built."
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Exactly. And I think this is a beautiful thing that you can really do that's so cool. And this is actually why we're in business again. It's what you can do is you have liquidity if you have SDRs. SDRs look like capital in a whole bunch of funny ways. One of which is if they're good, they're liquid. So the time it takes to ramp an SDR to sell the same product into a new market, is zero days. Because they're not selling the product, they're selling the meeting, and the meeting is a consistent product. It may be that the three things that somebody takes out of a meeting in the new market are subtly different, but the SDR only has to believe in the potential value of the meeting. They're not even going to get into its feature set. The belief is within them. So if you have good SDRs, and you keep the numbers down, when you realize you don't need them anymore in order to dominate your current market. You're already dominating it and now it's time to get a second one.
Because dominating two markets, your chance of failure is one fourth. Dominating three markets, your chance of failure is one ninth. It goes with the square of the number of markets that you dominate. If you dominate five markets, your chance of business failure is one twenty-fifth of where you are when you're dominating one market.
It's kind of like Metcalfe's law of the value of a network, but this is just math. You're probability of failing for... Now I'm going to make an assumption here. The assumption is that your financial buffer is sufficient to withstand say 95% of the secular horrors that you might run into in some reasonable period of time. The time it would take to acquire additional capital. But your gross profit flow from dominated markets will continue in downturns. They are your actual buffer against a recession or anything else. Nobody ever goes out on business because the market that they're dominating with a legitimate post chasm offering, mind you, not a pre-chasm thing that's dressed up like post chasm, but a real post chasm offering. It is hard to go out of business. You might find yourself at the margin expanding more slowly, or not expanding at all, or whatever, but you can shrink your overhead. You don't really need it for that much.
So, when you look at it, the number one thing you want to do, as soon as you find what market you truly dominate today, is to find one that you have a shot at dominating and reallocate your SDR resources only. The best of them, the very best, maybe two or three or whatever, to going over into that market with a message, and finding out if you can dominate that market.
What we do, this is the Connect and Sell magic, and that should take a week.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
Hmm.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
So that's your response to unscrewing the light bulb is, find out if you can make the light bulb turn at all, then ignore the light bulb, and take that hand off of it, and go find out if there's a light bulb you can screw in and the room next door. And first you got to get a ladder, that's your STRs, and if you can get up there and reach it and go, "Ooh, look the pitch of the screws about the same. And I think this is electricity. I think we'll be good." Then after just turning it a couple of times, you go, "Oh, we can do this. We can get this light bulb all the way in. We're good." Right?
But if you just sit there in the other room and you keep unscrewing it, seeing whether a different one fits and all of that. Well that rooms only that room, it comes with risk. It's actually a simple, simple program. Now when you have huge bloated SDR teams, you can't actually reallocate them. You don't even know who's good. When you have SDR teams whose purpose is to incubate AEs, you're really screwed, because your SDR team is the means by which you're going to identify the new market. The next market, the one that's going to reduce your risk by 75%, your risk of business failure. So it better be an SDR team that does it like it means it.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Versus a temporary, stop holding bin, AE and probationary period before I move forward, that's a position in and of itself that has value in and of itself. Inherent in itself in the whole cog. It's a cog in this entire wheel to market dominance.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
It is in fact the true spear point without which you cannot dominate a market. You need to have the SDR function. If you embedded into your AEs, they need to be extraordinarily disciplined, and you have to motivate them appropriately so that the future is important to them.
One of the beauties of an SDR team is they can keep setting appointments for people you've talked to before. They don't mind. But you got to pay them for the appointments. You can't pay them for the sales. That's not their job. That's not their job, morally, that's not my point. It's not their job, their role in your survival is to be the shock troops who can go in and determine that there is a market here. Once you've determined there is a market you can apply resources to dominating. It turns out those same troops can go and do that next thing, which is get the discovery meetings.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
And the point if I paid them on the sale versus the meeting, it's not one customer or a handful of top customers are not going to get me to market dominance. And so what I'm shooting for is off. I need numbers. I don't need dollars necessarily. The numbers will produce a dollar. I like that, that's great.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
This is a new chapter we didn't even think about. And I'm glad we came to it, which is, there was a chapter in here, the mission critical role of the professional SDR. And this isn't a matter of taste, which it tends to be like, "Well, I kind of liked to have SDRs that turn into AEs because otherwise I have to recruit AEs." Really you can't... Okay, so you're saying their job is unimportant, but when their job is not done, you can't explore markets. STRs number one job is to be an instrument of market exploration. Their number two job is to be an instrument of market expansion through the production of meetings where trust can actually grow. Between the AE, not the SDR, but between the AE, there's a transfer of trust. I have a conversation with you and I get you into a meeting with Jonty.
Your trust ends up being between you and Jonty. You forget me, the SDR, which is great. I'm fungible, I'm liquid. So I can be used to have another conversation. My skill is to get you to trust me enough in 30 seconds and be curious enough, that that curiosity will turn to commitment and the commitment will turn to the action of showing up to the meeting.
That's my job. I'm spinning in a little 32nd cycle. And when you try to catch me and stop me, I break free. That's my objection handling. And eventually I drill just far enough into your heart that you go, "Okay, I'll take the meeting." Because you like me a little bit and you're curious. And I believe in the value of the meeting and you hear that in my voice. That's my job. As an SDR, I need to repeat that little duty cycle, 30 times a day. And nothing else.
So people in the SDR world say often, "Oh, the SDR should be held accountable for the sale." How is that? Well, they should be picking the good ones. Oh, so that we don't actually have to make a list that's our market. We'll let the SDR make up the market. And that's another chapter, which is, are you letting your SDRs do your marketing, your market analysis? Because that's the standard. The standard is we don't really have a list that we believe is the market. We have this thing, we call an ICP, which we derive through argument, internal argument. We talk to each other endlessly. And then the ICP, our Ideal Customer Profile, we turn it into a list, or we turn it into search criteria or whatever. We do a bunch of stuff. This is the modern thing also, do everything because it might produce something. Swing at every pitch. Don't just use the bat, take your hand and wave it at it, reach back and take the catcher's mitt, and throw it at the pitcher, just do everything. Because something might work.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Because of the pressure of the overhead. Because I have a warehouse full of good that I need to get out on the street, and I need to turn them into cash as quickly as possible.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Yeah. And the irony is they're not proper inventory.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
They're actually supposed units of future demand. It's business run backwards. Software is eating the world. Okay. So fine. Just recognize software's eating the world and we have to make one simple adjustment. We can't use territories as markets anymore. The Rolodex no longer means anything. We have to actually do the work upfront to make the list that is our potential market. And then with discipline, call into that list with zero qualification. We must not qualify otherwise we take the signal that would come up, the negative signal, which is these don't belong in the list and we would hide it from ourselves.
We need to know if our list is any good, but we don't need to be rigorous about making sure we don't talk to the wrong people. It's okay. Talk to the wrong people. It's a cost. You should talk to about 15% of the wrong people so that we know we're talking to all the right people, because we're trying to find the one who's desperate enough to buy early.
And if we fail to explore it all because we get all picky about it. Well, my AEs don't like talking to those people. It's a waste of their time. Well, sorry, but this is a market exploration machine that's going to turn into a market exploitation machine and it's not about you, Billy Bob. But we pay them like it is about them. When they bitch about this I just say, "Let me just remind you of something. Take a look at your paycheck and ask this question. How much of that is my base?" Because whatever chunk of that is your base, you owe the company that proportion of that work 100%.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Yeah. I tried-
Speaker 4 (27:31):
That's my work. You're doing that for me.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Certain things you get paid a base for, and there's certain things that you get commission for.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
And you don't get to go like, "Hey, no I'm paid on commission. I'm coin-operated." Really? Take zero salary. See if I'll take you on as a contract salesperson. I may or may not.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
It's a new discussion.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I like that.
Announcer (27:58):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys Radio, sponsored by Connect and Sell, right here in the Funnel Radio Channel for at-work listeners, like you.
The classic book, Crossing the Chasm, by Geoffrey Moore, is a manifesto, a field manual, and sales’ version of Dr. Spock’s book on “company rearing” for new entrepreneurs…all in one. To level set for a brief moment – and Googling an image of Dr. Moore’s chasm graph may be helpful for the episode here - marketers have traditionally identified different kinds of B2B tech buyers: Innovators, Early Adopters, Early Majority, Late Majority, and finally the Laggards.
The traditional model assumed that, in the lifespan of a product, the market is first dominated by the innovators, then the early adopters etc. down the line. This model implies a level of inevitability in the flow-through of one of these categories from another to another…as your business continues. Good in theory but not so easy in practice.
The reality of entering and competing for markets today, gaps exist between the categories in this model that are large enough to derail the most promising startups as they transition from one category of customers to the next.
And the biggest gap Moore writes about is the one between Early Adopters and Early Majority. This is where both bags of money and companies go to die. Because the GoTo market & sales strategies that win deals in the Early Adopters group, won’t necessarily work so well for the Early Majority group. Instead, you may find yourself at the bottom of a valley looking up at an el Capitan-like sheer vertical wall of market climbing ahead of you. The sales team by your side that did well in the early stage of capturing innovators and early adopters now find themselves often overmatched and underequipped by the challenge and technical nuances of a market wall this big.
Since it is vastly different market types, moving from early adopters to early majority requires new tools, new approaches, and a lot of new thinking.
So what is the new thinking? In this episode, I ask Chris about the simple differences in the type of team and skills and techniques you need to climb this wall and continue moving down Moore’s market path. Building trust is the core requirement – and without understanding how and why you need to manufacture it to scale this wall, you’ll be left floundering and eking for survival with other amateur but well-intentioned climbers at the lower reaches of this meager market wall. So once again welcome to the Market Dominance Guys and this week’s episode, “All dead companies are equally uninteresting.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:49):
The classic business book, Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore, is a manifesto. It's a field manual and it's a sales version of Dr. Spock's book on company rearing for new entrepreneurs, all in one. And to level set for a brief moment, googling an image of Dr. Moor's graph may be helpful for our episode here today. But marketers have traditionally identified different kinds of B2B tech buyers. You have the innovators through the early adopters, through the early majority, the late majority, and then finally, the laggers. The traditional model assumed that in the lifespan of a product, the market is first dominated by the innovators and then the early adopters, et-cetera, down the line. And this model implies a level of inevitability in the flow through of one of these categories from another to another as your business continues. Certainly good in theory but not so easy in practice as many of us can attest to.
Corey Frank (02:04):
The reality of entering and competing for markets today, gaps exist between the categories in this model that are large enough to derail the most promising startups as they transitioned from one category of customers to the next. And the biggest gap that Dr. Moore writes about is the one between the early adopters and the early majority. This is where both bags of money and companies go to die. Because the go to market and sales strategies that win deals in the early adopters group, won't necessarily work so well for the early majority group. Instead, you may find yourself at the bottom of a valley looking up at an El Capitan sheer vertical wall of market climbing that is ahead of you. The sales team by your side that did so well in the early stage of capturing innovators and early adopters, now may find themselves over-matched or under equipped by the challenge and technical nuances of a market wall of this big.
Corey Frank (03:11):
Because since it is vastly different market types that you're after, moving from early adopters to early majority requires new tools, new approaches and a lot of new thinking. And so what is that new thinking? In this episode, I ask Chris about the simple differences in the type of team and skills and techniques you need to climb this wall and continue moving down Moore's market path. Building trust is the core component and without understanding how and why you need to manufacture it to scale this wall, you'll be left floundering and perhaps eating for survival with other amateur but well intentioned climbers, at the lower reaches of this meager market wall. So once again, welcome to the Market Dominance Guys. And this week's episode entitled, "All dead companies are equally uninteresting".
Chris Beall (04:21):
8.5% of your market is in-market this quarter. So if sales is the means by which we engage the whole market, because we have to have human conversations in order to get trust. And we have to have trust in order to have somebody trust us more than they'll trust themselves, and until they trust us more than they'll trust themselves, they won't buy anything. They won't buy a damn thing until that happens. So we've got to engage the market with regard to how we deal with its future, which has always at any given points, 11/12 of the available market. If you look at it on a per quarter basis 11/12 of the market is out of market right now. We can't engage them with advertising and all that. That doesn't cause them to be loyal to us compared to somebody else who might choose to engage them with human conversations.
Chris Beall (05:10):
So the vulnerability you have in market, even if you're the natural dominant player, you have huge vulnerability if you do not explicitly use sales as your means to engage the 11/ 12 of the market that is not in market right now. There's no other means to do it. And therefore discovery conversations, 11/12 of them have to be about the future. And they're simply for the purpose of establishing a trust relationship that someday you'll harvest. Next quarter, the quarter after, the quarter after. So, it's a multiplicative factor in market dominance. So if I've got the goods, I've got the inner reference ability, my delivery is good and all that good stuff, I still got the problem with time. And we compensate our salespeople as though we don't have a problem with time. As though their job is to harvest as much as they can this quarter but then who's going to take care of the future.
Chris Beall (06:06):
I know how we used to do it, simple. We assign a sales person to a territory, and if they're good they get to keep it long enough that they do this work. These territories and markets used to look like each other. When products were geographically constrained in the sales approach, territories and markets looked like each other because the market was a circle of trust. And so the sales person, look at the classic field sales person from 25 years ago. What did they really do with their day? They didn't run around and just try to get deals. That would've been crazy. They knew that there were folks who wouldn't buy this quarter. And they talked to them. They allocated their time between the present and the future sufficiently that they could dispose of the inventory mostly through discounting and they could get a future that got easier and easier and that's why it was so wonderful, if you're a successful salesperson with a rich territory.
Chris Beall (06:59):
Those people that have big houses. Their kids go to nice schools and this is actually the number one mechanism by which folks from I'll say, lower and middle class backgrounds in America gained wealth and entered the monied class, by money I mean the top five or 10%. Not the top half of 1% that tends out near the factor. It was simple, somebody with the personality, the drive, the willingness to learn and whatever got a territory. So they had like a little company. They would go out and use whatever it was to dominate that territory. You ever met a successful salesperson who owned a territory 20 years ago, he owned a territory for something, tires, or feedstock or whatever it was, who didn't actually have a pretty comfortable professional life once they got that coin?
Chris Beall (07:50):
Market dominance is, so we have the wonderful example of it. It just doesn't happen to fit the modern world where our territories being geographic doesn't make any sense anymore. And maybe even being aligned around industry sometimes doesn't make sense, although it usually does. So we actually have a wonderful model that tells us how to do this. And what did we do as people who ran businesses? Make sure that our best highest potential territories, which were our markets actually are being serviced by somebody whose life is getting easier. And if we're going to go after a new one, we have a certain kind of rep that we put in there if we really care about it. And we all knew this, everybody knew those people ran businesses like this, and it's why sales got to sit outside the company. Because who cares what the relationship of all that is to the company? It's your role. Companies produce inventory. So now they can do it a different way.
Corey Frank (08:47):
I think just for the sake of capturing this is, many of the times when we chat, it's just so fricking obvious. It is like Occam's razor, it's right in front of you sometimes, but when you iterate it, it's so clear. And I see how many mistakes I've made in business, just by saying, I'm not running this play. Actually, why didn't I run this playbook, 20 years ago? So specifically when you say that the average product life cycle of a product rate is 12 quarters for three years. And at any given time, only 11/12 of the market is ready to buy.
Chris Beall (09:25):
1/12.
Corey Frank (09:28):
Actually 1/12. And so the value of the discovery meeting like we started this conversation with is one of the potential topics is that sales leaders, CEOs, chief revenue officers, Sales reps, are shortsighted when they're trying to do the transactional model in, and of itself to call closes, where I SDR the call, and then I do the presentation or discovery, and if they don't buy, they're gone. And I miss out when I don't offer a valuable discovery call that is beneficial to the prospect, even though they're not buying because that's going to create an affinity for them to perhaps buy easier, or be more aware of my company down the road when their particular need matures enough to match with being in that quarter where I'm going to attack them now.
Chris Beall (10:22):
Yes.
Corey Frank (10:23):
So this is to review that, I get it I think, that's very helpful.
Chris Beall (10:26):
So in the nature of business products, nature of all products to some degree is, recency of purchase it has a radical effect on desire for another unit, especially from someone else. I buy a car, I'm not in the market for a car tomorrow. I'm a little bit more in the market for a car the next day, even though you can't notice it. And once I get out there about three years, I'm actually looking for a car. That's just the way it is. Most products, it's not the product life cycle, it's the replacement cycle for most products is around three years. Your mileage may vary, your product it might be four years or five years. If your product happens to be a power plant, maybe it's 20 years, but most products that we sell that we bother to have a sales force around it's about three years.
Chris Beall (11:14):
And when you think about what needs to happen in those three years, your goal within market is to become the trusted go-to person for everything about that problem. Not about your product, but about that problem. So as this individual company, they bought something, and now we're in quarter two, after that quarter three and quarter four, you need to be interacting with them, not heavily, but interacting with them, bringing them new stuff, bringing them new information. Not for the purpose of making them smart about your product, but just to use the asymmetry of information. You're the expert, you're the vendor. Vendors always know more than buyers about a problem, because you were immersed in that world and they're busy doing their own stuff. So that information and the renewal of trust, you know how trust works, right? You only have to be gone from somebody for a day, to have the trust start to decay for this weird reason, which is nothing more than lack of interaction.
Chris Beall (12:24):
You're not quite sure who that person is because they might have changed. So your deepest best friends when you get back together after 20 years, 10 years, five years, there's always this surprise, which is like, it's like we were never apart. If the trust factor didn't change, that wouldn't be a surprise. When we rediscover that person as the person that they became in our head, we're delighted. And we go right back up to where we were trust wise, but it actually shows us the trust you gave in your opinion, very silly, right? Well, these are strangers for crying out loud.
Corey Frank (12:59):
So the trust has a half-life dependent on each person then.
Chris Beall (13:04):
Exactly, and its cycle. And then you have another problem, the person you're dealing with, they themselves have a half-life.
Chris Beall (13:57):
So whoever it is that you're dealing with today, there's some probability that a different person is going to be responsible for that, it's the person best worth talking to. So you also got to keep re-engaging in order to just stay current with who, because you have to start from scratch again with these trust relationships. So your target company is going through their three year cycle to finally get to the point of being interested in buying a product to solve the problem that you solve. The individuals in there might change, so you have to keep up with that. Even if they stay the same, you've got to keep the trust relationship going. And the threshold is not to stay ahead of your competitors, although that's an absolute requirement, but the decision point requirement is you have to speed more trusted on this problem concerning this problem, than that person trust themselves.
Chris Beall (14:51):
The threshold for action in B2B as a buyer is I must trust the seller more than I trust myself. This is actually the core of the entire B2B conundrum. All of this other stuff is just math. The rest of it, you could compute, you could just throw it out there and compute the entire thing. But there's one part of it you can't compute, which is the radical risk especially as the purchase gets big, that a B2B buyer is taking in making a decision. Therefore your competitor and market at all times, your number one competitor at all times is no action. The younger, the market, that is the fewer of you guys are in there solving this problem, the bigger the power of Mr. Non-action, we're not going to do anything. When Jeffrey Moore draws that curve, that beautiful bell curve with the chasm in it, the reason for the chasm, if you think about the chasm mathematically, it's kind of funny. What it says is, hey, when you get over there into, trying to get onto main street, you're trying to get out where folks buy because other folks bought, you're at the bottom.
Chris Beall (16:05):
I think what people do when they look at the chasm is go, well, I go up this and then I jump up, [inaudible 00:16:10] you go up this and you go down to zero revenue in market because your market's on the other side of the chasm. And now you come over and you have to spend your way up that vertical wall in order to [inaudible 00:16:23] the customer and spend your way up that vertical wall with sales effort, backed up by appropriate marketing communication to support the sale. And you've got to get somebody to trust you so much that they're going to buy without a reference.
Chris Beall (16:40):
That's a crazy hard thing to do. People look at this picture and they go, oh, there it is. I like this one with the yellow over here, because we can see the yellow. That should be flashing red actually. So here we are and we're starting to sell some stuff and these are early adopter lab. It sounds pretty good, look, we're growing sales, therefore we're growing what you talked about, which is the sales engine. Which plays the role of the factory that must have its inventory disposed of. But now it's inventory consists of nothing of value, except sales capacity that's learned how to sell in a different market of folks who are not referenceable, across the chasm. Just no referenceability crosses the chasm, it's like the blood, brain barrier. No referenceability crosses the chasm.
Chris Beall (17:31):
And so now we're down in the chasm, a big, scary chasm. I always think this is drawn wrong, the chasm should be wider than the entire curve. And we get to go down there and we're on foot, in our canteen and we're shaking a gun and still have enough water in it. It's a lot like the bleached bones of folks that didn't make it, that's pretty bad. And then we get over here, and we have to take our imagination and go, oh, I'm at ground level when I start with the early majority, and I have to climb a vertical wall, that's this big. How do I do it? Well, does my vertical wall climbing team look a lot like the teams that sold to early adopters but a completely different reason? And are not referenceable at all across the chasm? Yikes. So this is your problem. Every market, you have to do this work. Every-
Corey Frank (18:24):
Is it a false positive that I happen to succeed with the earlier markets, or with my earlier product? And I get confident, I'm going to raise money off of that. Because, look at the success that I've had in this particular case here with the innovators, or the early adopters, not knowing that it's a false positive, and if I really want to go and dominate my market
Chris Beall (18:51):
Well, it is. It's not a false positive. You simply need to be careful how you interpret it and how you spend. And when you decide to cross the chasm, you have to see it as... So it's not a de novo activity, it's not like you didn't learn anything. Your early adopters, especially your visionary customer, the one that overpays you wildly, if you're smart and demands proprietary advantage, if they're smart. And if you're both smart, you go with that deal and you actually make a little company over there. That little yellow thing is actually a little company. It's a real, it's a business. It's a business whose purpose is to help somebody else dominate their market. That's its purpose. That is it sells competitive advantage for a living. And it might sell one unit or two units or eight units.
Chris Beall (19:44):
One is optimal. And the reason one is optimal is it's probably enough to force you to make your stuff work. Whatever your stuff is, doesn't actually work because it's not a whole product. It doesn't solve the whole problem. You haven't seen the whole problem yet. But if somebody is trying to use it for competitive advantage, they're going to beat the living daylights out of you until you make it work. And that's their job. And you have to extract as much money as possible from them because you're about to cross the chasm. Now you can use it as a demo for venture capital. You can go say, look at this demo. I have something that works and solves an actual problem. I don't understand the whole problem yet, but somebody was willing to pay me a fair amount to solve this problem for them. For them, it happens to show up as something that they can use for competitive advantage, but I believe there's another market this early majority over here, this thing to the right, that needs it to solve a broken mission, critical business process.
Chris Beall (20:45):
And that's a completely thing. And if you give me some money, I'm going to take my capability and what I've learned and build a new go to market from scratch over here using maybe some cool stuff that I could claim about these other guys, but they're not real references. That's, marcom. Use the fact that big co if they'll let me talk about it, the big co embraced my stuff, in order to impress and speak to folks in the early majority, but that's not why they're going to buy, they buy it because they're desperate. On the left side, they buy because they want to win, but let's ignore the innovators. The innovators buy because there are folks whose job is to figure out what's going on. What's coming next up. They're relevant, but not to this discussion.
Chris Beall (21:34):
The big challenge is this, when you build a sales team that assumes sales and marketing team and expenses around it, but assumes there no chasm, the chasm is going to be filled by either nothing, but as you die, or by venture capital or something like it, in which case given the true with the chasm, you lose control. If I'm a VC, I never have to worry about whether I gain control of companies, I just let them execute correctly, which they all do. It's a happy situation if I'm the money guy, and that's why the term sheets for venture capital are written essentially as salvage management documents. And the docs themselves, the corporate docs, when you actually do a round of financing and you read all the way through them, the big step, those series B financing, that's the one that normally looks most like this, just read through it and take a yellow highlighter. And when a sentence speaks to salvage, just highlight and then take it and put it up, and then just flip through it and go, okay, what was the point of all this?
Chris Beall (22:41):
Well, the point of all of this is we're going to have to salvage value out of this company, usually in the [crosstalk 00:22:46] that's the point of the damn thing. And why? Because when you try to fill the chasm with venture capital, it's tempting to keep your original sales force and your original sales approach that you used pre chasm, and just keep it and keep trying to make it work. It is truly, that's a wall and you're going to throw shit against the wall and see what sticks.
Corey Frank (23:09):
So I'm already donating your organs, doing a prenup and writing your will, right out of school. When you're at your most promising, and you have the highest zeal and the most intensity, oh, here's where your kidney's going to go. Here's your will.
Chris Beall (23:26):
And by the way, I think your dog might make pretty good dog food. It really, it's true. And it's not mean or anything. I think people just don't, they don't get what the nature of the beast is. The chasm is the nature of the beast. And it has teeth. If I really wanted to animate the chasm, it would be like that creature in Star Wars, the thing in the [inaudible 00:23:52], I don't know what that thing is called, but they would fall down there and it wasn't pleasant, right?
Corey Frank (23:55):
Well, Joseph Campbell and the cosmogonic cycle, the hero, there's a Harold, and there's a Coleen, and then there's a McGuffin and there's a guide, and there's always a false guide as well. And that guide will take you into the underworld. And sometimes you're not going to get out of the underworld until, and Joseph Campbell's wrote, you defeat your father or the nature of your father or the monster. And then you can come back into the real world armed with all this wisdom, and this glory, and this promise, and this potential. So it's funny how fact meets fiction here [crosstalk 00:24:30]
Chris Beall (24:31):
So what's so interesting to me about this, and this is why when I talk to people about it I say, look, your strategy, let's go all the way back to the beginning, your strategy has to include top, front and center, survival. All dead companies are equally uninteresting. They just are. In it to say well, we learned something and we failed, and all that, to me it's just ridiculous.
Corey Frank (24:58):
All cadavers are equally poor conversationalists.
Chris Beall (25:03):
And they compost, but that's about all you can do with them. You can't converse with them, you can compost them. So if you're trying to rotate or something, cadavers are great. But if you want to actually go for a walk with somebody, and when you get there, have two of you, you got to have living beings, right? So all dead companies are equally uninteresting, and therefore your number one imperative is survival. And this is actually the number one thing that venture capital does to companies, as they say, well, it's actually not, our number one imperative is that you produce some value that we can salvage in the nine out of 10 times, that we're going to be salvaging. We're running a boneyard over here, and I'm not going to show it to you, but if you pay attention, you would read it in the docs.
Chris Beall (25:50):
Why is that sentence there? If we all thought we were going to succeed, why is that sentence there? And the answer is, well, sometimes things go wrong. No, it's not true. They always go wrong in the same way. Every once in a while, a product offering is so oddly compelling to the early majority. They're so desperate that the sales force that you built pre chasm can actually sell post chasm.
Chris Beall (26:16):
I'll say that's an example of a product like Slack, Dropbox, or Salesforce that you actually could cross the chasm with your pre chasm sales team. But if you go back into Salesforce's history and see how close they came to going out of business, it was really, really close. And the reason is you take this expense you build, because you don't know how to get rid of it. And then you repurpose it to go after a real market. And you're really depending on the chasm being narrow and getting a [inaudible 00:26:50] effect where you could jump across it, because your product is so needed by somebody that they figure it out themselves and go, I actually don't care how much I trust you because I hate the situation I'm at. I'm an example for Salesforce.
Chris Beall (27:05):
So a guy named Kevin Stuffle will came to me in 2000, 2001. He was running my little inside sales team in Requisite Technology. We had our big field sales team about [inaudible 00:27:18], we've made a choice between Oracle and SAP for our enterprise system, including a CRM. We chose Oracle. Why? Because somebody thought they would influence Oracle to do a bigger deal with us even though SAP was paying us, say $20 million a year for two gold master CDs for source code. What can I say? Did they overreach? It's pretty common in business. This is not peculiar to this conversation. The overreach is pretty much the standard play for most ambitious CEOs. If I do this, then I can get this. And we see, I'll go back to the game of risk. There are people who play risk like that. And the overreach is what kills them. There's the Russia strategy, hold the Russia that kills you by being divulged to death.
Chris Beall (28:00):
There's the overreach in which you put that amoebic harm out there, and then it gets cut off. And it's like, oh, [inaudible 00:28:06] so we did that. And then this guy, Kevin Stuffle comes to me one day and he says, Hey, Chris, is it okay if I try something new with regard to how we do our customer tracking and stuff? I said, what are you talking about? He says, well, there's this thing called Salesforce out there, and they have this way that you can try it for free. And I said, well, you do you want to try it for free? He says, well, I already did that actually. And I actually have all the data for my team loaded into it. We're using it every day and it's really easy to use. And this Oracle thing, we're a year into implementation, and as far as I can tell, we're no closer to having a running system.
Chris Beall (28:46):
So I brought this up in a day, time to value, by the way is a wonderful thing. What was I desperate for? Some way of knowing whether we were cutting ourselves into a real market, because we were a company that did a spectacular job of extracting money pre chasm. It's not very often you get more than a hundred million dollars out of your pre chasm sales activity with one sales rep. That's pretty good. It's not good for going to market, but it's good from a financing standpoint. And it does your product work standpoint.
Chris Beall (29:17):
And I happened to be the rep and I sold four deals. I sold Granger, in this order, Corporate Express, little tiny deal of $250,000, Granger mixed deal, $10 million of investment, A million and a half dollars was source code, $2 million of engineering services, Oracle a million dollars flat, one day, one check, you get the code. And then SAP, 15 million, 17 and a half, 20, 22 and a half, and 25 over five years with unlimited top end and more products to sell, all pre chasm. So how much sales team do you need to do that? If you put together a plan, most people would go, hey, I think I'm going to need to have all this stuff. What you need is, it's four assassinations, you need exactly one ninja. The number of ninjas for four assassinations is one.
Chris Beall (30:11):
And if you have zero ninjas, it's hard to do very many assassinations. That's one way of doing pre chasm. And it works well under certain circumstances where you really have got something radical. So there's a deal you can do that involves source code, and exclusivity, and IP rights and engineering services. It's a very easy deal to do. If you don't like venture capital, and you have [inaudible 00:30:36] you've got real technology, you go do that as your pre chasm deal. And you avoid the problem because you don't have your factory in the form of all these people, access DRS and this, that, and the other thing, you just got your Ninja over here, and then you're a little heavy on delivery, but that's okay because your pre chasm customers will pay two and a half times market, not cost, but market for delivery services because they're seeking competitive advantage.
Chris Beall (31:04):
They like the fact that it's expensive. That's good for them. And they like the fact that they're sucking it up and others can't have it. That's wonderful for them. So say you fail to do that deal. So now you want to go after it more conventionally, which to me is like crazy, but what the heck? So you want to go after it with a sales team, a pre chasm sales team. Now your issue is that sales team, when you come up to the edge of the chasm is all expense and boom, no revenue. And they wonder why is it getting harder to sell? Well, it's because that early adopter market is small and not self referencing. It's not actually a market. It's anti self referencing. When I sell to Granger, I can't sell to Graybar for competitive. If I sell a tool to Granger, I can sell it to Graybar. If I sell a weapon to Granger, I can't sell it to Graybar.
Chris Beall (31:59):
This is actually our company's problem. We sell weapons. By the very nature of what we sell, we sell a weapon. And so it's not particularly referenceable for two reasons. One is it works really, really well. And therefore people don't want to talk about it. And two it's, well, if that guy is using it, I want something better. In the early market before the pre chasm market, before the chasm, all you can sell is enlightenment, which is to the innovators, and weaponry. And you sell weaponry by choosing sides. When you cross the chasm, you sell tools. Tools that solve broken mission, critical business processes, and you sell them packaged as a whole, so the problem actually ends up being solved.
Chris Beall (32:53):
And once you do that, it's a simple process. Make a list, call everybody on the list, find out who's desperate enough to buy from you, even though you don't have any references in that market. Make that bridge, the mini chasm. Bridge the mini chasm with human trust. The mini chasm is between the guy who's so desperate he needs your product and his feelings about whether you're just selling to them or whether you're helping him, and you've got to bridge that. And you bridge it with this huge amount of information, about 600,000 bits just to get started in a 30 minute conversation. A 32nd conversation, by the way, it's got 600,000 bits. A 30 minute conversation has got millions and millions, of millions of bits. That's why discovery is the essence of the game. Because in discovery, you can have so much information go back and forth, not the information about your product, the information about you.
Chris Beall (33:52):
Can you trust me? And now if you have a need right now, well, you'll buy right now. Might I have to discount? Yeah, because I don't have the references. What's the purpose of the discount, to make the sale? Kind of, but not so the rep can get the commission so that you can get your first reference customer in market. So by the way, Jeff Moore taught all of this years ago, it's been a seriously ignored as though there's another course that people take called how to ignore the fact of the chasm and all of its consequences. I think there's a lot of PhDs being awarded in that particular field.
Corey Frank (34:30):
So whether you believe in gravity is irrelevant, because it believes in you.
Chris Beall (34:34):
It believes in you. [crosstalk 00:34:38] And this is the unified field theory of modern business, it's not true back in the past. When I could assign a sales person to a territory, I had something to sell. I can sell it at a discount if need be, I'm disposing of inventory, completely different universe. All business processes and structures and how we do accounting, how we finance businesses, all that's built on a paradigm that is no longer relevant. Those products are no longer interesting. What's interesting is software is eating the world. The reason it's eating the world is software is liquid, and travels at the speed of light. So it can go around the world and find out what's good to eat. It's like a swarm of locusts. Software's always going to have a meal. Now, the question is, are you going to make any money off it? And the answer is, well, you better shrink down your goals at the beginning in order to be able to dominate. And when you do dominate, this is coming all the way back to why does the cold call the essence of this entire thing?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys Radio sponsored by ConnectAndSell, right here in the Funnel Radio channel for at-work listeners like you.
If you want to dominate your market, here’s an inexpensive tip: Head down to your local Goodwill and buy a used version of the classic board game Risk… It seems that you don’t need AI, Machine Learning sims, or dozens of third-party load-tested and validated forecast models to predict how your business will perform in the next 24 months. Sometimes you just need to remember how you played a game that many of you probably haven’t picked up since you were 12.
Risk was a board game that taught many of us about basic market dominance…each player sits and views a map of the world where each player has a finite number of armies placed randomly in a territory. The goal is to budget – and risk – your armies to conquer your neighbor’s landmass – while also leaving some troops to defend the territories you already have won from attacks that soon come on other fronts. The player who conquers all the armies on the map is the winner.
No less of a result than we’ve talked about on these episodes.
Consider that at the outset of every turn you simply ask yourself, “What am I going to risk in order to boot somebody out of a territory, so that I can dominate it from which I can launch another campaign when I'm strong enough to dominate and adjacent territory?”
It’s the same theory in business – except deploying real dollars and resources vs placing your surplus of plastic pieces in Greenland (never a good idea).
If you and your leadership team just played Risk all day long, I guarantee you will see traits and ideas and lessons to be applied to your current business.
Because this math and exercise in risk and reward – and you’ve really got to do that kind of fundamental math if you haven’t already done so – is kind of like the game theory of business that must be done before we can figure out the real role of sales.
So let’s jump right into this episode of the Market Dominance Guys entitled – Parker Brothers gave me my MBA.
----more----
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Speaker 3 (00:26):
If you want to dominate your market, here's an inexpensive tip. Head down to your local Goodwill and buy a used version of the classic board game, Risk. It seems that you don't need AI or machine learning simulations, or dozens of third-party, low tested, invalidated forecast models to predict how your business will perform in the next 24 months.
Sometimes you just need to remember how you played a game that many of you probably haven't picked up since you were 12. Risk, for those who aren't familiar, was a board game by Parker Brothers that taught many of us about basic market dominance.
Each player sits and sees a view of the world where then each player has a finite number of armies placed randomly in a territory. The goal is to budget and then risk your armies to conquer your neighbor's landmass, while also leaving some troops to defend the territories you already have won from attacks that soon come on other fronts. The player who conquers all the armies on the map is the winner. No less a result than we've certainly talked about on these episodes.
Consider that at the outset of every turn, you simply ask yourself, "What am I going to risk in order to boot somebody out of a territory or a market, so that I can dominate it from which I then can launch another campaign, when I'm strong enough to dominate another adjacent territory?"
It's the same theory in business, isn't it? Except deploying real dollars and resources, versus placing your surplus of plastic pieces in Greenland, which is never a good idea by the way. If you and your leadership team in fact, just played Risk all day long, I guarantee you, you will see results and traits and ideas and lessons to be applied to your current business that would certainly help springboard into a successful 2020.
Because this math and exercise in risk and reward is so critical to business, you've got to really do that fundamental math if you haven't already done so. It's like game theory of business that has to be done before we can figure out the real role of sales. Let's jump right into this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, entitled, "Parker Brothers Gave Me My MBA."
Corey Frank (03:24):
Two states of a company that you were talking about is either they're dominating at least one market or they're dominating none, which is very binary or they're in the process of dominating one or dominating none. But I think it would be helpful today maybe to spend a little time talking about, "How do I do a reset? I'm not dominating my market. I'm getting my ass kicked. Is it time to hang up the spurs because I already lost? Or is this an irreversible condition? Is this a reversible condition? What are the steps that I would have to take as a business to start my path back to market dominance? Or is it the company that if they do this correctly, who are dominant, will never have any ankle biters again?" But what's a company to do that finds themselves asleep at the wheel, wakes up after their C round and realizes that, I'm only going to grow by 12% this year.
IEB does only going to grow by about 4% this year. I'm in this purgatory, where, what do I do? Do I double down? Do I re-engineer my sales department? Do I re-engineer my marketing department? Do I introduce new products? Do I try to look for a strategic M and A record and pull the plug? So we'll be talking about that because as in session four and five, we talked a lot about discovery and how discovery is a destination strategy and it's just a step to get to the next step. And that reps need to believe in this discovery meeting in and of itself. And which is also an interesting point Chris, is that most sales methodology is actually, I take that back. Most sales organizations, sales managers, if you're a new rep, the teaching that I give you performing the discovery meeting is to get me the answer to these four questions.
Chris Beall (05:20):
Yes.
Corey Frank (05:21):
I don't care how you do it, but get me the answer to these four questions. So they're not even taught that this should be a benefit to the prospect, they're taught that this is you're a blood letter and you need to extract this blood at any cost, and I need these four pieces of who besides yourself makes the decision, when you make a decision, as you had said.
I'm only asking questions here to get the buyer into this cul-de-sac that they know they're trying to be shuffled into and they're playing the game, and who's to say that they're going to give you honest information. So we can talk a little bit about that too in addition to how do you reverse it? Why are people, why are managers trying to teach this way that this isn't a discovery meeting, that you only need these four pieces of information and the job of the discovery call isn't necessarily a sale it's market dominance to talk about?
So in and of itself, the mindset has to shift for the sales reps, where that is a product that has value inherit in and of itself. Even if you don't get the sale, you've moved the needle to helping raise awareness, increase information, increase a market branding in the market itself even if you don't get the sale. That's a tough equation for a lot of sales reps to solve in the binary world of did you get the sale or did you not? But even if you didn't get it today, you may get it later. So I think those are three broad topics we could cover today if you're game.
Chris Beall (06:49):
Sure. We could probably get a book out of each one of us. That's a really, each one is pretty big.
Corey Frank (06:55):
Where would you like to start? How to reverse the effects of aging and as a terminal? Why or how do we better coach as leaders our team besides just extracting the form bloodletting questions and how do you square the circle that this is a product in and of itself that says value inherent in and of itself, even if I don't get the sale.
Chris Beall (07:16):
Yeah, let's start with the big one, which is how do you reverse the effects of aging? That's very near and dear to my heart right now. Actually has been for about the last 25 years. So I like, for instance, I actually ran all the way to the Seattle sailing club yesterday, just because if you go out and run for a few hours every day, you will reverse some of the effects of aging. It's actually a pretty good example. It's a simple process. You run it every day, you run it long enough and it has an effect, and I think it's very similar to the issues around your aging position in a market. So I think most companies find themselves in exactly the situation you were talking about, which is they don't dominate any market, but they can't be sure.
I think step one in the question of market dominance is, you need to discover the truth about whether you might be currently dominating market. It's easy to forget what a market is and a market is a set, which means it can always be expressed as a list of those companies that for your offering are inter-referencing.
That is if you sell to one, you will lower your cost and risk associated with selling to all others in that set, that's the nature of a market. I don't know, markets are naturally bounded because you get to the edge where you find a company that will not be influenced by the sale of your offering to anybody in the set. That's the natural boundary. So it's entirely possible that you actually do dominate a market and you just don't know it. So that's number one is you've got to go find out what your current status actually is.
Given that the relationship between the markets as natural entities, that is if you do the research and the analysis and ask yourself that inter referencing question, you get a list and who you actually sold to in the past. It's often somewhat rather coincidental mostly because sales itself is the means by which markets are dominated, and sales is very rarely aligned with markets, natural markets, real markets. And so what you do is you find yourself in three or four or seven or 31 markets or whatever, and if you were to make that list, which is a good exercise, what are all the markets oriented? What's the rule?
Well, market is a list of those companies that are into referencing and you do it in a rigorous way so that you're not fooling yourself like, "Oh yes, of course," because Harry the pencil manufacturer bought from us then George, the grocer certainly is more likely to. That's the sales person's fantasy. But a proper analysis will show you generally that there is one market that you dominate.
It's a funny situation. There's a reason you're still in business. I mean, you can actually flip the reasoning around. If you're still in business after a while you probably dominate a market, but you may not know what it is. You may not have been explicit about what it is. So step one is go make those lists and find out if you dominate a market because if you do-
Corey Frank (10:26):
If there's something that you're still good news, step one, you're still alive.
Chris Beall (10:30):
And if you want to reverse aging, the first thing you have to determine is that you're alive and aging. If you're not alive and aging, you probably can't do very much about your aging.
Corey Frank (10:40):
So we will create an algorithm and then if statement for all of this. I love that.
Chris Beall (10:45):
So that's step one, because, and the reason that's such an important step is, in the likely case where you'd find a market that may be small, that you dominate, you should ask yourself the question does the gross profit flow from that market support the entire overhead of the company.
This is one of the glories of actually having a P and L that's set up correctly. Is that you can really go to your P and L and you're not allowed to cheat here. You can go in and be realistic. That is if your P and L has below the line expense items that properly are allocated to the sales function, or maybe this marketing function, or maybe marketing and specific product within market for this list support function.
You can do some work there and say, okay here's my true overhead, but whatever your true overhead is, you have to ask yourself, the question, does the gross profit flow from my current dominated market, allow me to be a company of the size that I am? So having done that, you get an answer to that question, which is almost always no, because you bloated your overhead over time.
By the way, if you have ventured in finance, you actually deliberately blooded you overhead like crazy because that's what venture capitalists ask you to do is just spend their money. They call it putting it to work because they have no more evidence that the money is doing a good thing. Other than that, it's going somewhere else. It's not stay here, and we certainly didn't give it to this company to have it sit in the bank. [inaudible 00:12:19] banks checking account offering is not what venture capitalists are looking to fill.
They're hoping that money goes to work. It's actually a little bit of a silly idea, but it has some soundness to it. But anyway, it's how they work, and therefore venture finance companies tend to take on a lot of overhead and the answer is always, no, even if we dominate a market, we can't cover our overhead, but that's okay, because our marketing includes future venture capital.
So you're on a path and the path is a different path where you say, well, I'm going to get this D round or this E round or whatever. But at some point that ends up being a below threshold question that is here. You have to either sell the company, which is actually the plan, or you have to shrink your overhead to match the gross profit flow from the markets that you are confident in, which always includes every market that you dominate. You got to do that math. It's the fundamental math the business must be done before we can figure out the future role of sales. This step is I would say this step is never done.
Chris Beall (14:12):
I mean, it's an obvious step, but it doesn't seem connected in folks' heads that you have to do this first because they see all the revenue as being reliable. But in fact, their revenues divided in two and therefore the gross profit flow is divided into two basic sets.
One is the set of all profits from markets I dominated and therefore I can comfortably predict the future. I can forecast. So there's a relationship between market dominance and forecasting that's interesting. The entire sales forecasting process when carried out or the revenue forecasting process, not sales, but revenue forecasting process when carried out a year or more actually has a hidden assumption and that is that that revenue is forecastable. But non-market dominant revenue is not forecastable fundamentally because after all, you could have the dominant player decide to play a game in that market and throw you out.
One of the reasons that you want to be the dominant player is it opens up a whole bunch of games such as, "Hey, we'll reduce our gross profit flow in here a little bit and price crush everybody else in this market, and then when they're gone, we'll enjoy it a little bit more." To the victor, will go the spoils.
The fundamental nature of fighting when you spend in order to fight and you take risks. But when you do it from a dominant position, when I've got the aircraft carrier and you have the whatever it is, a little destroyer over there or whatever, I often will choose to fight just to get rid of you. I prefer to have an ocean that doesn't include you and your stupid destroyer. You can't do anything about it. This is the point.
The point is when you're not the dominant player, if dominant player decides that you are a threat and they decide to spend the energy time, money, whatever, to attack you, they have a play they can run that you can't play unless your pockets are infinitely deep.
So let's ignore infinitely deep pockets which I call non businesses. Those aren't businesses at all. Those are companies perhaps like venture finance companies, but they're not businesses.
A business actually lives and grows off its net profit flow, and therefore must have a gross profit flow, and therefore it has to have, in order to plan, has to forecast ability across profit flow and therefore must dominate at least one market because that's when they can play this [game 00:16:36]. They can choose to attenuate their gross profit flow in order to increase their hold on a market. Generally, for the purpose of being able to go launch themselves into another one. That's why you do it.
I don't know, this is tough for this book because most people I think of an age to read this might not have ever played the game Risk. Risk is the game that those of us of a certain age grew up on that taught us about market dominance.
The way you play risk is you decide at the margin, what am I going to risk in order to boot somebody out of a territory so that I can dominate it from which I can launch another campaign when I'm strong enough to dominate and adjacent territory.
I mean, if you just played Risk all day long, I just applied it to your business. You do really well because it the ultimate simple game and it had chance in it and everything, which is true. There's a lot of chance out there. Your product might not be as great as you think, or technology might change out from under you. Secular changes could occur in the economy. You can end up, if you're in the real estate business and the economy turns upside down with regard to real estate. Well, the market you dominated is no longer such a wonderful thing to dominate. Now, that sucks to be in there.
Corey Frank (17:56):
That's a great analogy Chris, because you think about the risk board if when you get the random assignments of your countries with the cards at the beginning of the game, and you may look down and say, Holy cow, I got three of the five territories in South America. I think I'm going to start dominating there first to get your beachhead. Then if the other folks, there's always one guy in the group that puts all their armies in Russia and thinking I'm going to start there and I'm not going to have all these little satellite, little armies. I'm going to start there and then invariably what happens, the little ankle biters start nipping at the peripheral of this big guy and he doesn't have a big army anymore because he has no beachhead to expand off of that and that's very, very compelling.
Chris Beall (18:43):
Yeah, this is funny. I've thought about this before. That'd be interesting to hold a one week seminar in which all people do is play Risk for about two or three hours, and then you talk about what you learned and you actually have the game recorded and analyzed. It's like what are you trying to do here? Because it is the game that matches the challenges that we find around market dominance.
The funny thing is, and this is, I think what folks don't get, I'm going to jump to the other topic for a moment, is the duty cycle, the core act of market dominance is acquisition of one net new customer gain market. And the impact is all of the gross profit flow that will happen not from that customer alone, but from that customer and the increased opportunity to take other customers and put them in your portfolio because of the reference ability impact from that first customer.
So this is why there's a bunch of other elements to this equation that are really interesting, and we don't have to get into all of them. But for instance, time to value is a big element, because time to value can affect time to reference-ability and the act of reference of being reference able or the state of being reference able is the state you're trying to put a majority of that market into. So you're trying to get a book. I call it rolling a boulder downhill. You're pushing the boulder up hill, up hill, up hill but you're spending energy trying to get enough of this market that the boulder starts to roll down hill and all boulders that roll downhill get to the bottom of the hill. They just do. It's the nature of boulders and the nature of hills.
It's a really simple idea, but you have to, if you think about it, if I'm rolling a boulder up this hill and every once in a while, I run away from it and I go over and I roll a boulder near the bottom of another hill and I forget to get this one all the way up over the hill to where I dominate, I get a bunch of boulders when I'm pushing up hill. That's all I get. It never gets easy.
The great rule of business is, there's a point where it gets easy and the point where it gets easy, if you make a list of all those companies for whom you could make a next sale pretty easily, that's the rest of the market that you're dominating.
So, once you identify a market that you dominate, you actually don't have to go gather the rest of it. You can use the rest of that market as a financing vehicle so that it turns into it a different thing. You'd have to be careful of threats, your Russia situation. You have to be careful of threats, but then aware of them, but not obsessed with them because you're done. You got extra plays. You can run, but be aware of them. You have to be aware of secular forces, which you can only deal with with financial buffers. So that's why we keep cash in the bank because there may well be something that happens we don't predict, and we have to weather a storm.
Those things could happen in a business, but we should not at this point simply say, "Oh, I got to get the rest of this market." The purpose of the rest of that market for your business is to provide you with the flow of gross profit that doesn't cost you much to acquire, including future sales in that market.
So you can take that money in excess of the buffer that you need and choose another market of the right size that you can afford to go after and now go roll another boulder up the hill because this one's rolling down the hill. Time to go put some effort into your business, and this is not done. It should always be done once you identify one. So this is the opposite of what everybody thinks. So what everybody thinks is, "Oh my God, I got to go find one to dominate." It's almost always the case that if you're in business, you dominate one market. You just don't know it. It's pretty small.
Well, it's just what you think and you just have to be realistic and go. This is the one I'm sure of, how much excess gross profit flow can I extract out of it without hurting my reputation. You've got to provide good service and because otherwise your reference ability goes down. With bad service, you can turn around and push the boulder back up over the hill. That's a really bad idea.
You have to monitor whether folks are still reference able, whether they're still getting value, that kind of stuff. But the conservative play is to say, I just want this one, and they will ensure your survival right up until the point where the secular forces of the world, either competition or change in the economy cause you to suddenly not be able to forecast properly up to two years. And when you can't forecast properly, then you have a problem because you can't rely on that gross profit loss. What have we dominated market looks like as a venture capitalist? Who is providing or a bank, who's providing you with money at a very, very favorable rate?
Corey Frank (23:48):
So these equations that we've been taught in business school and marketing for a while, or these types of graphs here cost five to 10 X more to acquire a new customer. We've all seen the box where you have the four quadrants in the lower right quadrant is it's five X easier to get those. You know what I'm talking about. It sounds like it's missing a piece. It's not just go getting any customer. It's getting a customer in that existing market that you're trying to dominate. That's what makes it easier. Not just any random customer, an existing customer at all. They have to be in that marketplace. That's how you're going to move this boulder much easier.
Chris Beall (24:28):
The big issue I'll call it the impedance mismatch that makes companies operate chaotically when it comes to engaging the outside world, not just the world of potential customers is how sales is organized and how sales is operated. So sales is organized according to territories or whatever, but tends not to be tightly organized around markets, real markets, which have these inter referencing capability. That is a sale is a sale, is a sale is a sale. Although we all know it's not, we all know there are customers we love and when we go, wow we got that one, isn't that great? And customers that when we bring one in, we can feel it. It's like the sales person asked for extra whatever.
The first thing they ask for is discounts that don't make sense. Everybody goes, why are we doing this? And the answer is because the sales person wants the commission and they don't want to lose their job. Why does the manager let them do it? Because the manager doesn't want to lose their job. I mean, it's really simple. It's a cascade of conservative fear-driven behavior that drives out this rationality of saying no, no, these are the good customers, and these are the non-customers and says, but wait, wait, wait it's revenue.
But wait, what's being ignored is, that revenue could actually have negative value. Even after you look at it on a P and L and you go there's the gross profit flow. It could have huge positive value. Does it represent a legitimate beachhead in a new market? But using luck or the desire of a salesperson for a commission or the fact that Joe knows Mary, using those as the ways of identifying your next market is truly insane.
You're putting the whole business at risk in order to make a salesperson happy as you can't figure out another way to motivate them. I mean, it's really rather strange. And I'll go all the way back to, this is what I'll call the conundrum of capitalism.
Capitalism taught us something about sales that has not been widely recognized. Capitalism taught us that sales has a purpose. Dispose of the inventory to generate gross profit flow. It was the push out of the factory that organized all of sales because the factory is going to keep making stuff, and we got to get rid of it. And since we can't keep making it at the margin, we may as well just keep making it unless the market gets saturated in such a way that it starts spitting it back, vomiting it back on us. That tends not to happen in most markets.
So we learned how to organize sales and operate sales. According to the principle of get rid of the inventory, which is why we discount. In the modern world of digital products, there is no inventory. You discount because you're afraid that if you don't make the sale, you're not going to cover your overhead. The discounting and sales competes with your pool of capital. Your pool of capital if you've had a pool of capital would also allow you to say, you know what, I don't have to worry about this little issue of whether we have enough money flowing in. I've got my pool of capital and I'm going to focus tightly on making sure I dominate a market because that's-
Corey Frank (27:44):
But I don't have inventory, but I have overhead in costs. I spent X amount of dollars on ad-words. I spent Y amount on SDRs Z amount on my marketing stack. So it's ironic that it's inverted. Before I had this big factory with a warehouse full of hale bales that I needed to get out of there. Now I don't have that, but I have all this other costs that gets the Hale bales off the door. That's where that panic sets in to discount or to get. I got to cover my net for the month. I got to be profitable for the month.
Chris Beall (28:14):
And many times, those that you just described are all above the line. There they are. They're all actually accounted for as cost to goods.
Corey Frank (28:23):
Yes.
Chris Beall (28:24):
But you just pointed out that they're not. They're the equivalent of a factory that's sitting there producing nothing, but when it produces, it produces a weird thing, which is revenue.
But from running a business perspective, it's really producing gross profit. But what it does within a dominated market and outside of one are radically different with regard to the future gross profit, which is what you really care about unless you're going out of business tomorrow.
This is actually the fundamental reason we need capital in modern companies is not to have a factory, is to have a buffer against uncertainty when we decide to either fight within market, you got to have the ammo to fight. I want to throw somebody out. I want to expand into an adjacent market. So I know that's going to cost me money because those initial sales aren't pushing a boulder up the hill. I don't have the reference ability and I got to break force my way in there. And all of this is confounded by another factor, which is the one that's I think the hardest for people to think of. The replacement cycle for most products in B2B is three years, therefore only eight point five-
Speaker 2 (29:38):
You've been listening to market Dominance Guys radio sponsored by Connect And Sell right here in the funnel radio channel for at-work listeners like you.
Rocky. The Karate Kid. The Average Joes. Rudy. Underdogs. We love them. They are the people who use their grit combined with their well-coached and newly acquired skills to make waves, cause the odds-makers fits, and run up the score.
When you get funded by a VC and finally have the green light to release the Kraken and launch your vaunted sales machine, there is a temptation to run up the bill on the countless tools available in the sales and marketing stack and forget the meager stack from whence you came.
“Stand back…I have capital and I’m not afraid to use it!”...you’ll think.
- Magic beans to make my phone ring?...I’ll take it!
- A love potion to make my prospects swoon into a demo?...Yes, please!
- A virtual dancing Elvis to get folks to download my white paper?...sure, why not?
You can spend the GDP of a small Caribbean country playing this game and feeling like you also have the perfect Millennial-friendly office, the best cold brew, and the ideal dress code and PTO policy.
But the most sophisticated and successful stack and culture in the world can be had right now if you simply have a tight message that works combined with a mechanism to talk to hundreds of thousands of people a year…AND doing it with a small team of sincere and empathetic salespeople.
But is it realistic?
In this episode I ask Chris if something like this only exists in the lab…or can it be really be seen in the wild.
Welcome to the Market Dominance Guys and this week’s episode: “Mr. Miyagi and the Theory of Market Dominance.”
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Announcer (00:51):
Rocky, the karate kid, the average Joe's, Rudy, underdogs, we sure love them. They are the people who use their grit combined with their well-coached and newly acquired skills to make waves cause the odds makers fits and run up the score. When you get funded by a VC and finally have the green light to release the kraken and launch your own vaunted sales machine, there's a real temptation to run up the bill on the countless tools available in the sales and marketing stack and forget the meager sales stack from whence you came. You'll think, hey, stand back, I have capital and I'm not afraid to use it. Magic beans to make my phone ring? I'll take it. A love potion to make my prospects swoon into a demo, yes, please. A virtual dancing Elvis to get folks to download my white paper, sure. Why not? You can spend the GDP of a small Caribbean country playing this game and feeling like you also have the perfect millennial friendly office, the best cold brew, the ideal dress code in PTO policy, but the most sophisticated and successful stack and culture in the world can be had right now, if you simply have a tight message that works combined with a mechanism to talk to hundreds of thousands of people a year, and doing it with a small enough team of sincere and empathetic salespeople. But is it realistic?
In this episode, I asked Chris, if something like this only exists in a Petri dish in the lab, or can it really be seen in the wide open plains of the wild? Welcome to the Market Dominance Guys and this week's episode entitled Mr. Miyagi and the theory of market dominance.
Chris Beall (02:48):
This what's so weird. This is huge leap. This is why I think it's so interesting. Okay. I have a strategy. My strategy consists of making a list. That's my strategy, right? I make a list. I claim that hypothetically, that that list is self-referencing. If one of them buys, the others are more likely to buy. I don't have evidence of that yet. It's a claim I'm making to myself. It's like any other scientific experiment, I make a claim. I got to set up the experiment. So I set up the experiment by making the list of companies. And I set up my sub experiment by saying, oh yes, and I'm going to try to talk to these people in these companies. I hypothesized that they're important to this process. And then I can start with them.
Now, what? Right, it's really interesting. Now what? I can advertise to them, but that doesn't give me any feedback other than that some of them can advertise another way. What if they're searching? I can buy some ad words and I can do that. And some of them will come to me. I can email them and some of them will come to me. But what I'm trying to do is to drive discovery conversation with which I find out from that individual whether they will take the risk of advancing the discussion to the next step.
So now I get to call the sheep from the goats, the sheep of the socializers who will always take a discussion to the next step because that's what they do. And the goats are the ones who are going to go, "I ain't going there unless I see personal advantage." And the personal advantage must first include the risk. So the risk comes from you lying to me because you know, more than me.
So therefore the thing that must happen is a discovery conversation in which by and large, as the potential buyer exits that conversation, they've now placed significant trust in that particular seller, whether or not they're going to buy now. So you're conditioning the market through sincerity applied at discovering. Your mathematical problem however, isn't discovery because you can't get them into discovery. We're busy and they don't spend their time doing this. So now you have to go, oh, here's my bottleneck. My bottleneck is right above discovery, which is right above the top of my funnel.
So now I have a new trust problem, which is how do I get somebody to take me to a discovery meeting? Oh, well the answer to that turns out to be in the oddest place that nobody ever thought to look, which is the first seven seconds of a cold call. So that's what's so interesting about all of this is you take what is going on in the big world, right?
So what happened to capitalism? It's really interesting. What happened to capitalism is all the machines became free and you can rent them. So the role of capital in society is completely changed. Capital is no longer an interesting question with regard to expansion of your business. It used to be core to buy the second cotton gin, I had to spend the same as I did on the first cotton gin. I've got to know that there's enough demand out there. So that's probably pretty easy, but mainly I have to have the capital. Without the capital, I can't do it. My gross profit flow from my sales is what's going to create the capital because at some point accumulated capital drains off. So to make a sustainable business, the capitalist formula was get a machine, make a thing, whatever the thing is that the people need or companies need or whatever, have a sales force out there, channel and we call it and have the gross profit flow come back and make sure the inventory is disposed of or else my prices will collapse, right?
That's the old formula. That's the formula I was taught in school, in high school. I remember taking a class on whatever they call it, economics. Right? And they showed me the supply demand curves and how capital works. And in 1972, when I took that class, I remember raising my hand saying, "Mr. Kittredge, that model is obsolete. "And he said, "How could this model be obsolete? This is how our society works." And I said, "That model is obsolete." And I told them this in '72. I said because the math says that the cost of making new products is going to go down. The cost of making the machines that make products is going to go down. And the driver for that is the thing I just learned how to do over the last four years, which is to build software.
When the experts say software is eating the world, everybody gets this wrong and they go, "Oh, software's eating the world. That means we're going to use more software products." It's not true at all. Software is essential to the making of all things that we use, including software. It's irrelevant that we use software, that we sell software to consumers use it is irrelevant. That doesn't make any difference. It makes making things cheaper and cheaper because it's software that ultimately robotized as the economy. It robotizes first certain jobs like writing something down on a piece of paper, sending it to somebody, sending the memo. Remember we used to have typing pools? The typing pools all went away. These are huge, huge, huge numbers of employees who did things that are now done by software.
Software drives costs, incremental costs of making new products, new products. The copy of a product is so cheap. Now we don't even think about it, right? Back in the day, the copy of the product counted. The classic P and L meant something. Cost of goods was the cost of my inputs, and the cost of the labor to make the thing. Cost of the labor has gone down because of software. The cost of the goods has gone down because of somebody else's software.
It ripples through the economy. So now we're left with the only thing that counts as markets. The only thing that counts as markets and the biggest changes you can't buy them anymore. You used to be able to buy markets and now you can't buy them because you're competing with money, and money is more liquid than your damn corporation. This is why the first seven seconds of a cold call are the essence of executing corporate strategy. And the message that goes in the next 27 seconds is the most likely point where you're going to fail and they process or the machine that's in scarce supply is the sincere sales person. And that's the new economy.
That's why I want to write this book. That's what this book is about. It's not about salespeople getting better. The reason that we're doing this company is we've stumbled upon the mechanism for tearing the lid off the top of the funnel. We actually don't think that solves the problem. We think that's today's problem. Today's problem is getting a flow of discovery meetings. Tomorrow's problem is holding great discovery meetings. That condition the market in your favor for dominance
Corey Frank (09:51):
Is the natural progression of ConnectAndSell, right? From a one dimensional product company that performs a service that's advantageous to the market. You've repositioned the messaging, the big idea to what ConnectAndSel really is. That it seems like this natural offshoot is that there is going to be a shortage of sincere sales people than that is going to beget another industry of all types of sales training, or maybe even instead of a typing pool, I have a sincere salesperson pools. Right? And it's kind of the natural trend line for great, okay, I love it. I agree with you. I want to dominate my market. I don't have the right recruiters. I don't have the right people to hire these people. You're given me the screenplays to say, but I don't have the Stella Adler's to coach and put me on stage and slap me around to get me there. How do you get me there?
Chris Beall (11:01):
Exactly. Exactly. How do you hire the right people who have the right characteristics inside of ... So how people are raised becomes really important. What kinds of places can you go that have filtered for sincerity? So we have a company in Northern California we work with called Five 11 Enterprises. And what they do is they hire graduates out of Simpson College and Bethel University or College, whatever it's called. So their strategy, their purpose was to provide jobs for people that were like themselves. That is people whose spiritual inclinations were such that they went to a school whose purpose was to allow them to conduct a spiritual life professionally, somehow, right? So that's a sincerity filter because those schools don't attract insincere people by and large, and they filtered them out along the way through their program. That's not their primary intention. It's a side effect of how they're run, right?
It's a core to their mission, but not core to their practice, the filter. So you get these folks who are coming out of these schools who love the area it turns out. So you have a reason to aggregate them. They like the Mount Shasta area. They like Redding. There is not a lot of jobs there for these kinds of people anyway. What are the jobs going to be? Right? It's kind of interesting. So they could go to work in the medical field perhaps, or something like that. There are always jobs there. But what if they could learn sales? And then what if we could amp them up by a factor of 10? So this phrase is a little bit funny and it sounds flip, but it's not. It's actually very sincere, which is we work with Five 11 Enterprise to provide packaged sincerity on steroids.
So they package the sincerity in the form of a salesperson training, and a place to sit, great support that is support that's appropriate to a sincere person. And then we amp them up by a factor of 10. We turn each one into 10 people, and then we manage them against the standard since. Drift, right? And drift is all about seeking comfort in place of performance. So the coaching is very simple, but it's still rigorous coaching. We have to listen carefully and they have to be held to a high standard. But interestingly, the high standard is the standard of sincerity and precision, not what you normally do with salespeople. Normally with a salesperson you say, "Give me somebody with some good sales DNA, a good track record, the Rolodex, and here's your territory," right? But that's the capitalist approach, which is no longer relevant. Not because there's anything wrong with capitalism. It's just burned out because you don't need the capital anymore.
Chris Beall (14:40):
So what you need is you need a pace of taking a market and you need the insurance policy of knowing you're going to dominate it. As soon as you know you're going to dominate one market, you have capital. Oddly enough, it frees up resources to now go after another market. And all this stuff comes together in this interesting way. That's what's going to be kind of hard about this book, but I think is exciting. So when I deliver this to people now in a simple form, right? But it's still a whole thing. Starting from here's the change that you were seeing out there. The change is it's hard to buy companies now to execute strategy. You can put a strategy down on a piece of paper, but there's a new sheriff in town called private equity. And he doesn't want you to have his company that he wants to buy and he's going to bid it up.
And by the way his job is simpler than yours. You've got to integrate, he doesn't have to integrate. So he's going to, oh, you're going to get an overpriced product and it's going to have higher risk. So, okay. How do I stay in business? Because dominating markets is not a matter of desire. It's a matter of necessity. If you don't dominate one, you will always go out of business. Mathematically you will always go out of business. Why?
Because someone else will come along and dominate all of the markets that you're playing. One will dominate one, one will dominate another. You're playing in five markets. You think and I get 16% share, 22% share, 5% share, 9% share and 18. I'm doing so good, right? And you're counting dollars with dollars are coming in. And you're looking at the gross profits. Gross profits are good. Right? You're looking at your growth rate. Oh, I'm doing okay in this one. I'm growing 20% in this one. I'm growing 6%. But mathematically what's going to happen is if you're in five markets, one, two, three, four, up to five companies are going to come in eventually and dominate that market through a simple program of talking to everybody.
Corey Frank (16:34):
Yeah. Right. And today they talk with everybody in lieu of ConnectAndSell or a tool like that, they're going to do it by using social media to dominate the conversation. Whoever has the greatest noise, which has to be done.
Chris Beall (16:50):
It can't be done because it's noise. It can't be done.
Corey Frank (16:52):
But this is a lot like Ockham's razor theory of markets, because you're going to the simplest half that not the most obvious path for so many folks is where does truly the consumer have this catalyst, this initial big bang or spark of being introduced to your company of potentially step one, verse one chapter, one of your company is in that first seven seconds. It's not way back in the origin story of the product. It's not in the R and D meetings. It's not in the marketing or the logo or anything like that. Right? It really is this Ockham about what's standing right in front of you.
And that's very disconcerting I would imagine for the traditional market understanding. It's very disconcerting for a marketing person, a product marketing person, an R and D person, hell it may even be disconcerting for the sales person here. Right, because wait, I thought my job was just to make my nuts and then maybe get a firm handshake. And now you're telling me that the company's survival, it's very survival, it's binary. It's either you dominate or you're dead. I don't like this binary world. I like this gray world instead. And that's what we're talking about here.
Chris Beall (18:17):
Yeah. That's what's so interesting. The shift happened really fast and so we have a front row seat at ConnectAndSell that no one else has. We get to watch companies actually doing it, and they won't talk about it, but we get to watch it. That was my dream with you guys at Stormwind. If we had done that step-by-step and stuck together and hadn't had that moment of doubt that Tom had then ended up in kind of going away and coming back. And if we had just said, let's reduce that top of funnel force by 70% and let's change their comp so that sincerity is going to be in play a hundred percent of the time. Let's do the whole thing, right? Would have simply eaten that market whole. Nobody would have a little to stand up. And it would have been simple step-by-step. It would have taken approximately three years to full domination.
And it would've taken approximately 18 months to certainty. And its certainty could have said, you know what? We could be worth four times as much if we demonstrate we can dominate a second bar. So let's do that because we know how to make products like that. Right? I mean, how hard was it to make a new product?
Corey Frank (19:28):
Nothing. Nothing.
Chris Beall (19:30):
But dominating market? Very hard. Having shown you can dominate one, if we dominated one together, we would have been able to easily identify another. You already had like nine of them in your head. Just pick one, make a list, take the best, the best four people. And in four weeks we wouldn't just have knowledge, we would have had the beginning of dominance, and we'd take that dominant cycle down from three years and then maybe two years. But the time to certainty would have gone down to six months. And with a time to certainty on six months, that's the turns on your capital. That's what's changed. The financial equation has changed the turns on your capital. When do I get all my capital back? Right?
Corey Frank (20:11):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (20:12):
It depends on only your capital is now market domination is its markets. That's what my capital is, not money anymore. So what's the turn? Well, the turn starts at three years because that's the replacement cycle for products. For all products it starts at three years. Your time to certainty, when you look at the math, is you're at about 85, 90% certainty if you're following your dominance plan and the numbers are working. If that's all happening, then at 18 months, halfway through that cycle, you're sure that you're going to dominate that market. You're only at about 18 to 20% of market share, but doesn't make any difference because you've talked to everybody. You condition the market in your favor right? It's a mopping up action.
So you're foolish to spend management attention on a mopping up action. Management attention should go where net new value is being created and net new value is created in the next market. So I've got customers doing this and we can't put them in the book by name because they won't agree, but doing this right now [inaudible 00:21:18] market. And no one will ever be able to compete with them and no one knows what's happening. And they're very secretive. They hired a new guy. He comes in and he's at least got a great background and used to be at inside sales, all this stuff. And he says to his boss, "We got to go talk about this."
He says, "If you ever breathe one word of what we're doing with Connect and Sell, you will be fired." He goes, "Oh, oh." And then he comes to me and he says, "What should our stack be?" I said, "You have the most sophisticated stack in the world right now. You have a message that works. You have people who talk to 300,000 people a year, 11 of them. You've won. What you need to do is pick another market. Don't worry about your damn stack."
And so we fought over this for quite a while, for quite a while and you know, like three months, right? And he's going, "But I need this, I need this, I need this. I need this." Dude. And he says, "Yes, I get that it's working, but it could be working better." So it doesn't make any difference. It doesn't make any difference. If I'm going to win every fight. Does it make any difference if I win in the first round, the second round or the third round, if I win every single one? Who cares, right? I'm going to be undefeated.
Corey Frank (22:27):
So the competition's going to wake up one morning and realized that they can't catch.
Corey Frank (22:32):
Hopping over, game over. They've talked to everybody and they don't even sell to them. Their strategy is this, it's literally their strategy. Talk to everybody. That's their strategy. And they simply talk to everybody so they don't push it. They just talk to everybody. They kill their numbers. Everybody's talks about somebody's new business plans. How are they doing? These guys literally blow their plan out of the water every quarter. And yet they don't try to sell the product. They just talk to everybody.
Today, when you examine the toolbox of the modern sales professional, many of us immediately see the abundance of options in the marketing and sales stacks that decorate most of our desktops…I have tools that can disguise my phone number, I know when someone opens an email, I can do a virtual face to face meeting…AI and machine learning tools even tell me what to say and who I should say it to…a scale of portable technology and advancement and capital on any ordinary rep desktop that would leave an Apollo-era NASA slide-ruled engineer in your dust.
But what about the techniques, behaviors, and go to market strategies of that same modern sales professional?
Sadly, for most of us, we’re still stranded in mid-century America. But not the mid 20th Century, rather, I’m speaking of the mid 19th Century America of 33 states. The mid-century of America where the new hot book on the scene was not Good To Great or The Lean Startup, but instead a fresh little nautical fiction text entitled Moby Dick.
In this episode, Chris takes us through a virtual time warp of strategy, territories, and compensation as a salesperson.
Some things have indeed changed, But some remain firmly entrenched in a midcentury President Franklin Pierce’s America. This is the Market Dominance Guys and today’s episode “Get the DeLorean; My Profession is Stuck in 1855!”
----more----
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:47):
Today when you examine the toolbox of the modern sales professional, many of us immediately see the abundance of options in the marketing and sales tech stacks that decorate most of our desktops. I mean, I have tools that can disguise my phone number. I know when someone opens my email, I can do a virtual face-to-face meeting on demand. AI and machine learning tools even tell me what to say and who I should say it to. It's a scale of portable technology and advancement and capital that any ordinary rep desktop today would leave an Apollo era, NASA slide ruled engineer in your dust.
But what about the actual techniques and the behaviors and the scripting and the go-to-market strategies of that same modern sales professional? Sadly, for most of us, we're still stranded in mid-century America, but not the mid 20th century. Rather, I'm speaking of mid 19th century America, that of 33 States. The mid-century of America, where the new hot book on the scene was not good to great, or the lean startup button instead, a fresh little nautical fiction text entitled Moby Dick. In this episode, Chris takes us through a virtual time warp of strategy and territories and compensation as a salesperson. So some things have indeed changed, but some remain firmly entrenched in a mid-century Franklin Pierce America. This is the Market Dominance Guys, and today's episode is Get the DeLorean: My Profession is Stuck in 1855.
Corey Frank (02:42):
When we were doing the test drive with you, at Stormwind we had ConnectAndSell, and we were doing pretty well and we're spending lots of money. Tom says we should probably try another competitor just in case. Well, there are no other competitors. Came back with this company called ConnectLeader.
Chris Beall (02:57):
Oh yeah.
Corey Frank (02:57):
Oh, okay. Well, sure I kind of felt that yeah, that's the right thing to do for the business.
Chris Beall (03:03):
Right.
Corey Frank (03:03):
You know, brought those guys in and you know how the movie ends, right? We probably lasted maybe, gosh, maybe a month with those guys after like three months with you. And then I come crawling back to you and the services, give or take let's just say from Tom's perspective, the services were roughly the same. The biggest difference was the trust factor that I had, because we've probably known each other maybe 10 years before Stormwind and had various interactions. So I did trust you more than I trusted myself. Right? And people like Chad or Steve in the marketplace as well, there are certain folks that I do trust, which is why you seek out their counsel, you seek out their advice. You probably don't set one foot in the AASP Conference in Chicago, you don't even get into the breakout rooms before somebody sees you at the hotel check-in and says, "Oh wait, Chris, I got a quick question about ABC vendor. You're familiar with them."
Chris Beall (04:04):
I can't physically get into the building, which is great.
Corey Frank (04:11):
Yeah, because this trust oozes from you, people do trust you. Is that a little bit of that I may have a superior product? I may have even an exceptional list, but if my salespeople are not trained with true empathy and I don't hire to that, that they'll never get to that threshold. Or I may succeed in spite of my sales team, but how conscious should I be as we're going down this path of market dominance in the selection of the people who give that message?
Chris Beall (04:46):
Hugely careful, this is where hiring somebody who even exaggerates a little bit is highly problematic. I know some who do and get away with it, but they exaggerate transparently. That is, it's a joke. You know, Steve's the opposite. Steve Richard is hyper precise. Steve will never tell you a number that he doesn't know is true. He just won't do it. So there are two personalities out there in the public that take different approaches to it. But when you're hiring a salesperson and you get that person who shades what they say a little bit in order to influence somebody, the problem is that it is the web of lies problem. You can't play it. At some point it just gets problematic.
But the other problem is, human beings are to sincerity as wolves are to fear. They smell it, our insincerity, right? Human beings smell insincerity, and the only people that can get away with being insincere in a sales situation are psychopaths. And there are psychopaths out there, sociopath's whatever you want to call them, who actually have perfected the art of causing people to trust them, even though their intentions are very, very bad. Those people exist. They make up a special subset of society they've existed for all time. They have some function out there. I'm sure you can send them in among your enemies. You might get something good to happen. Some of them are in certain industries that are interesting. I would imagine if I were going to be, say a true undercover spy, living in somebody else's society for 40 years, with intent to subvert them, it would probably be pretty handy to be a sociopath or psychopath because then I could get people to trust me because I manufacture it.
But for most of us, for the vast, vast majority of people, we're stuck with actually having good intentions, sincerely having good intentions in order to be trusted. And that's a funny place for a sales person to be. In fact, when we compensate salespeople, we're basically saying to them, "you know what, I don't trust you to actually put the effort in and do this correctly so I'm only going to pay you for what you bring in." Everybody else in the company we pay because they do what we asked them to do and we've designed that process. If they do a diligently and they interact with other people in the company, in a way that's helpful, or at least not too hurtful, we keep paying their salaries and unless their job description goes away, they get to stay with us, right?
Salespeople, we give them the opposite message. We say, you're an outsider. We're going to pay you as little as possible for doing the job and as much as possible for the results, we don't care how you get the results. We just don't care. Just bring in the number, right? And then we kind of hope that we get sincere people. It used to be, you didn't have to be that sincere to play the scan. So now we have a new situation. It's going to be very interesting to me to see what happens in the world of sales compensation. Sales compensation is based on the notion that sales itself is an external function of the company. Sales is not inside the company, it's outside. It's an appendage, notice where it is on the P and L S G and A sales general and administrative. What, what in the world?
We've lumped it in with the electricity that we buy, the rent that we pay. You have to have a sales function, whatever that is right? The sales job was always to convert inventory that was being generated by a factory. So it's the essence of how sales is thought of as an outgrowth of the core structure of capitalism. So capitalism says this, Hey, I got to have capital to make stuff, because you make stuff with machines, right? That's why capitalism was interesting because machines represent the ability to make more than an individual human working with their hands, with the tools they might've accumulated, say were handed from their mom, their dad, right? So if I'm a carpenter in 1600, well, I apprentice to a carpenter, probably my dad. I borrow his tools for a while and then when my dad retires or passes on or cuts his hand off or whatever the hell he does, those tools become mine. And my skills are mine and I take my trade out and I do my trade.
Chris Beall (10:04):
That's not capitalism. What's the upside of having capital? That would do you no good. In fact, it'd be bad. It would take away the spirit to go out and work.
Corey Frank (10:14):
Right.
Chris Beall (10:14):
Idleness, right? I've seen books, very sacred books that talk about how dangerous it is to have [crosstalk 00:10:22]. They're not the right ones, the [inaudible 00:10:25] issues. So there's only so many forms of entertainment.
Corey Frank (10:30):
Getting pregnant.
Chris Beall (10:31):
So then we come along and it's like, okay, wait a second, we figured out how to take the stuff of the earth; coal, rain falls uphill and runs downhill. Just a couple of things and turn that stuff into motion. And we figured out how to harness that motion and turn that motion into inputs turning into valuable outputs without a person doing it. And now we say, "Oh, well look at this. I can make cotton gin."
Well, what does a cotton gin do? It solves one problem and it creates another problem. The problem is I can run the thing all day long. I can run it all night long. I can do it with two people, one in the day, one in the night, because people need to sleep. That's it, two people doing the job of a hundred people. So now I have this output. I got to dispose of the output. Now I need sales to dispose of the output and turn it into cash.
Why do I want the cash? Because the cash is capital to get a new machine and double my productivity, double my production, not my productivity, but my production. So, capitalism produced this beautiful thing, which is a positive feedback loop between the gross profit produced by sales and the future size of my company. Because as long as I have access to the inputs, which is why big companies became vertically integrated, I need my own coal. I need my own iron ore, right? They have integrated supply chains and they did that because interruption of supply would cause your capital to go idle. Your machines would go idle.
Sales' job was to keep up with the output and the primary way sales did that was by dynamically adjusting price within individual markets called territories; it was always geographical, in order to make sure that all the output was disposed of. So the reason for the great discounting culture in sales is that the job of sales was to dispose of the output. You can't have inventory buildup forever. You got to sell the stuff off in order to be able to buy the raw materials that you needed to make the stuff in the first place and then in order to be able to potentially expand the business. So sales is still stuck in 1855. Still looks exactly like it did in 1855, which is, I hire you, I give you a territory and you have discounting authority. And you'll only exercise it to a particular degree because your commission depends on how much you sell. So the discipline is provided by the commission.
Corey Frank (12:59):
And I have extra inventory and I need to get it down to a certain level to keep these machines going and I need a machine [inaudible 00:13:06].
Chris Beall (13:06):
It's very simple, right? Why sales exists and why it sits there on SGNA. Why sales doesn't sit, where it should set today, which is right in R and D. Sales is actually a form of development at this point. It's development of the thing you need more than a product, which is a market. The scarcity in the world has gone away from products. You can build products anytime you want. See this product here, this little coffee cup with all of this stuff on it, it's my wife's name and all this cool stuff. I can go on Zazzle and have one of these things made for me. I can have a hundred mate, I can have 10,000 made. And all I do is go click, click, "no I don't want it to say this, I want it to say this. No, I don't want the color to be white I want the color to be beige. No, I don't want that size, I want the handle to look different." Right?
Think what that used to take 150 years ago, a hundred years ago, 50 years, 30 years ago. That's huge to make that design decision. We made molds, we have jigs, we have this, we have that. My capital had to be affected. Products are nothing nowadays. Markets are [inaudible 00:14:11]. I was talking to a guy last night about a radical product, a product that will change the world. I can describe it at the very highest levels. It's a product that would allow any owner of any company to know what their company is worth at no cost. Just like you can know what your house is worth through Zillow, you can know what your company is [crosstalk 00:14:34] super valuable product.
Anybody can see how valuable it is, right? If you could do that and make the product, you do it. Well, you can do that and make the product. It turns out to build that product, if you have the deep knowledge of that domain, which this individual happens to have, is a matter of calling up [inaudible 00:14:50] and saying, Hey, Tesh would you take a $100,000 to build this for me in six weeks? And he goes, sure, yeah, maybe whatever. I don't know, I'm busy, whatever. Right? So say decides to do it. You're going to get a usable product within six weeks that will change the world. [crosstalk 00:15:06] a marketing problem.
Corey Frank (15:08):
Right.
Chris Beall (15:09):
Your product problem has gone down, which is why VCs will no longer fund ideas because the products are so easy to build. They're going, if you bring me an idea, what's wrong with you, why didn't you build the product? So they won't play that game anymore. But the [inaudible 00:15:26], is to go to market game as a demo for a future acquire. But if you're a serious corporate, that is, you're stuck with survival. As a corporation when you get to a certain point, the option of just throwing yourself away, is not so great. If you're a startup, fine, you throw yourself away. You get bought by somebody for whatever the going price is. Everybody's got a formula such and such X revenue, but this category of company, blah, blah, blah, right? But if you're running a hundred million dollar company that you've built up over time, you don't have one market you dominate?
Somehow say two of your markets that you used to dominate dissolved through secular forces, they're not there anymore. So you're going to go out of business. It's not an "if" it is a "when". You will go out of business essentially for a simple mathematical reason, someone else will come in and dominate one of your markets that you're playing in. And as you lose share, you'll have to discount like an old fashioned sales guy in order to maintain what feels like share in the market but it actually is going down because the gross profit contribution of each unit that you're selling in that market on a repeated basis is going down and you're hollowing out your company.
Corey Frank (16:33):
Okay, so if I take this in continuous equation here, superior products, better than average products may not necessarily win in the end if their go to market strategy, their sales staff is not at a superior level. In other words, all of the things being equal in a vacuum, a superior sales force with a substandard product will beat a standard product with a substandard sales force over time, over an extended period of time.
Chris Beall (17:05):
Overtime, every time. There will be no exceptions to that. There's a certain class of product that is not a superior product that is sort of the mindblowing product where somebody gets it just right. And it resonates in the market. Slack is an example of a mindful product. There were a hundred Slacks, right? There were a thousand Slacks at one point and they happen to get it together just right and "bing" the thing resonated and it spread. And everybody uses those as examples, but when you look at those examples, they apply to a tiny, tiny fraction of the kinds of products that you can feel out there. Almost all products you can feel for the enterprise can't work like Slack in terms of the spread, because the unit of adoption isn't the human.
Dropbox was like this, the unit of adoption was the individual and then they did this thing. Most products, the math doesn't work like that in [inaudible 00:17:58]. The unit of adoption normally is the work group or the department or the division of the company. [crosstalk 00:18:07] And the unit of adoption or unit of change is above the level of the individual, product is essentially, not meaningless, but secondary to go to market strategy. Did I make a list? So, it doesn't get easier and easier or harder and harder?
Announcer (18:31):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys Radio sponsored by ConnectedAndSell right here in the Funnel Radio Channel for at-work listeners, like you.
States, lots of ‘em, 50 states. Plus Red States, Blue States. States of consciousness. Physical states. Liquid/Gas…
How about the state of Markets, being Market Dominant, or simply being an “also-ran?”
The fact is there are only two states you can reside in as a company: you're either dominating one market or more, or you're dominating zero. And if you're dominating zero markets, you WILL go out of business in time unless you turn into a company that IS dominating at least one market.
Market Dominance is security, it’s collateral, safety, shelter, asylum, parlay; but most importantly, it’s freedom. Because the only two reasons a company dominating a market can ever go out of business is either financial mismanagement or if the market is just too small.
So how do you map your journey to market dominance? What’s changed over the past few years that makes it easier for some and more difficult for others to even get out of the gates? In this chat, I ask Chris for his insights into the real stakes of entering this Octagon of business without true dominating intent. This is the Market Dominance Guys and today’s episode entitled, “The Two-State Solution in Market Dominance: Dollars or Donuts?”
----more----
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (01:05):
States, lots of them. 50 states, plus you have red states and blue states, states of consciousness, physical states, liquid gas. How about the state of markets or being market-dominant or simply being [inaudible 00:01:22] in your market? The fact is, there are really only two states you can reside in as a company. You're either dominating one market or more, or you're dominating zero. And if you're dominating zero markets, you will go out of business in time, unless you turn into a company that is dominating at least one market.
Because market dominance is security. It's collateral safety shelter, asylum parlay, but most importantly, it's freedom because the only two reasons a company dominating a market can ever go out of business as either financial mismanagement or if the market is just too small.
So how do you map your journey to market dominance? What's changed over the past few years that makes it easier for some and more difficult for others to even get out of the gates. In this chat, I asked Chris for his insights into the real stakes of entering this octagon of business without a true dominating intent. This is the Market Dominance Guys, and today's episode entitled The Two-State Solution and Market Dominance: Dollars or Doughnuts.
Chris Beall (02:39):
It's the talk that I gave, starts with corporate strategy and the challenges of corporate strategy, and it goes all the way down to the psychological nuances of the script. In one case in the dinner case, I'll call it, I leave the details a little fuzzy. So I get to sort of the fact that there are these psychological imperatives and the language is important, but it's not a workshop. The idea is to get people discussing this controversial question which is, is it possible that an old path to dominance has gotten more difficult because of some secular changes in the world?
Which is primarily the concentration of wealth in the hands of a smaller number of people which has driven the growth of private equity, and private equity has driven the competition of money with corporates where corporates have to compete against money that has an easier job. What does the money have to do? All the money has to do is make an investment. They have to find an asset they want to invest in, and they see them as assets, not as companies. And then they put the money into that company through this complex looking process. But it's the same for all parties who might ever want to buy that company, no different.
They have more flexibility. They can take positions from whole ownership down to some fraction, which a corporate can't do, corporate needs control. So they have a wider variety of targets they can go after. They have no requirement to integrate, none whatsoever. You can buy the company and just let it run, or they can buy it and put in new management, or they can buy it and have a thesis about operations, or they can buy it and combine it with another company.
They can do anything that they want, right? I'm a corporate when I buy a company, what can I do? I can either let it run independently and decide whether the law says I have to consolidate the books or not. And then I can say, "Well, I've added it to my portfolio, and I'm going to seek synergies later at the SSL approach, or I'm going to integrate that company into mine, into the acquiring company, which is known to fail 90% of the time.
So as a corporation, I have to pay up. Now I have to pay premium prices for an asset that may or may not be the right asset because I can only learn so much about it before acquiring it. And after acquiring, and I have to do more work with a higher failure rate. The guy I'm competing with just does his due diligence strokes a check and says, "Yeah, we'll flip it later."
Right? So that path to strategy, that mountain that sits in front of me has gotten steeper and steeper and bigger and bigger and corporate strategy, which is, essentially, which markets am I going to go at? Right. I have product strategy too, but even there, I tend to execute as a big corporate, I execute through acquisition. And product strategy, I still can kind of do it that way. The venture capitalists take care of that problem for me.
They build the research and development labs off there in Silicon Valley and Silicon slopes and Austin and Boston and all those places. And all of these people come to work for them thinking that they're starting these businesses, but all they're really doing is just working for these laboratories that are working on categories of problems. [inaudible 00:05:42] isn't quite happy because they get a free labor and they have a salvage operation running, just strip the IP out of these things if the business didn't work, which they don't really care about, the business that is.
That business's a demo of value for a future acquire and every once in a while, you'd do kind of demonstration make one of them. So as that game is played, no problem. Product strategy is a big corporate. I could choose to make my own products and take them to market, but that fails almost every time. Now, some people know how to do that. Half of those people are talking to you right now. So it's so uncommon that it's just not even worth considering a product strategy.
But your big strategy is market strategy. I need to go and take a new market because market domination is by strong evidence, the only insurance against business failure. So that's actually where I start this talk, which is quite surprising to people. I say to them, the fact is there are only two states you can be in as a company. You're either dominating one market or more, or you're dominating zero.
If you're dominating zero, you will go out of business, unless you turn into a company that's dominating at least one market. The only reason a company dominating a market can ever go out of business, or two. One is financial mismanagement to the point where you can't even recover in a market dominance position. Usually you take on too much overhead. So if your overhead is so big and you can't figure out how to get rid of it, or you're too dumb to get rid of it. And if your market is too small, then dominating a market, doesn't ensure your survival.
Corey Frank (07:24):
So, what is defined as a market, Chris.
Chris Beall (07:25):
I use Jeffrey Morris' definition. So a market is a list or set actually, but a set is usually expressed as a list, of mutually referenceable companies. That is, they have the mathematical property that when one of them buys a product from vendor A, a specific product X from vendor A, then every other participant in that market, everybody else in that set becomes more likely to buy that product at the same price or under the same conditions of knowledge.
So you keep lowering the cost, the internal cost, your cost as a seller of taking the next unit within the market of advancing in the market as you take units. So markets essentially are mathematically downhill operations. Once you get a Boulder rolling downhill, it rolls faster and faster and picks up more boulders, right? So in a market, once you get that first customer, which is very hard to get, by definition, anybody else who's positively influenced to buy from you, that particular product by definition, they're in that market.
If I will buy, because you bought a little bit mean. I'm a little more likely to buy because you bought, you and I are in the same market for that particular product. And that's it. It's just a mathematical concept. It's a set of all of those who are mutually, mutually reinforcing with regard to their desire to buy. And the reason for markets being defined like this, and this is markets for, usually not entirely estate, which categories, but if I'm a company coming into a space I'm not established. So I've got the same problem as though I have a new product or innovation.
I'm new. New is bad. Nobody wants to buy new in business, right? Everybody wants to buy new as a consumer because as a consumer, I'm putting my money at risk. And if I'm identity as a consumer is wrapped up around, like my social status is wrapped up around the perception of other people that I do, new things, then I'm easy to sell to.
This is what consumer products tend to come into the market quickly. If they hit a little subset that are like, wow, that's the cool thing. And then cool tends to take them either up a big or they just eat the cool factor. And that's all they get is the cool ones, right? There was no equivalent of that in business, except a tiny fraction of people called technology enthusiasts that you can sell to and you can sell new stuff to them. And they were very, very small and they flame out quickly.
In the business world, people are afraid for their jobs when I buy, I fear for my job. So I'm not sure surely much more conservative than when I'm risking my money because I'm not risking my money anymore. I'm not risking the price, right? If even if I buy a Tesla, the worst cases, I melt the price of a Tesla minus the resale value of a Tesla, right?
So I take it off the lot and then I sell it the next day because I hate it, because it turns out those two big screens make me have seizures while I'm driving or something. And it's like, "Well, I got to get rid of this Tesla." What if I might lose, I don't know, 5,000 bucks. It's not so bad. If I buy my company a Tesla, so to speak, and we could commit to a business process in which the Tesla is essential to the business process.
This is how we're going to get to our conferences from now on. We're not going to fly. We're going to drive this Tesla really fast. And then we discover, Oh, darn their speed limits. We hadn't taken into account that there are speed limits. It will go really fast, but we can't go that fast. And now it's too expensive to get to all the conferences we need to go to, and we're going to go out of business. "Hey Chris, why'd you buy the Tesla? Why didn't you stick with the airplanes?" "While they're kind of expensive and all that and the Tesla promise to be cheaper and blah, blah, blah."
It's like, Oh, okay. So you failed to notice something in your analysis and we're not letting you ever buy anything again. So we're going to take your power away. Maybe take your job away. So what am I risking? Oh let's see my reputation by kids' college education, my retirement, my respect in the community, whether my wife stays with me, husband, dog, whatever. I risk everything [inaudible 00:11:39] it could be to be first bigger or the newer, the scarier.
So what's so unique about B2B and what frankly drives me crazy when I see these predictions that B2B will go to the way it BBC, and it'll all just be easy buying online. It has to do with how much information the buyer has. It has nothing to do with how much information the buyer has. In fact, the 180 degree opposite. The more information the buyer has accessible to them in B2B, the less inclined they are to buy. Because the information is all vendor information or vendor influenced information. You can't tell. It's the fake news problem. It's all fake
To some degree, every single thing anybody says about any commercially available B2B product is shaded in the direction of trying to influence the buyer to make a decision. The buyer knows that, and the buyer knows that decision could cost them their career
Corey Frank (12:34):
The B2B buyer knows that. [crosstalk 00:12:36].
Chris Beall (12:38):
That's right but the B2B buyer has this, their consumer, when they get up in the morning. They drive to work in their car and they close their car door. They walk with their briefcase up to security, and as soon as they scan their badge and they go into their cubicle, it's almost as if the air is piped in differently or the ceiling tiles or the magnetic forces change them to these risk averse pieces of mankind, versus they'd be so risky to buy something on their own money, but they come into this environment and they have much more of a sensitivity to marketing information, product information, the phone ringing in a sales or a stranger on the other end of the line. So it's the same person on the weekend between Monday to Friday, but the stakes are higher. Is that what I hear you saying?
Corey Frank (13:34):
Exactly. The stakes are so high. They're so high that only somebody who is so reckless that nobody would ever let them buy anything for a company just goes out and goes, Oh, I'll just get one of these. They'll just get whatever it is. Even something as simple as a conference. Look at the decision to buy something as simple as, "I think we'll go to this conference," not even as a sponsor. Very simple. Risk isn't that high? You don't like the conference. You don't go again.
And yet a committee will form around it. People's opinions will be asked, right? It's not this idea that... In fact here's the contradiction. Okay. The big contradiction. So we're told us sellers, two things are going on. One is our B2B buyers are becoming consumer-like, and the other is the buying committee is getting bigger. Now think about that physically.
A consumer privately sits there in front of their computer or on their smartphone, and it looks at some information and gets influenced by influencers, whoever it is, Kim Kardashian or whatever. And they go as a consumer, "Oh, I think I want this, click, click, click. And they have like buy with one click on Amazon and all that kind of stuff, right?
The B2B buyer, we're told, does the same thing more and more each day. And yet somehow they're doing it by committee. The committee is getting bigger. So what is the committee all sit around at that person's desktop and stare at the stuff and go, "No click here. No click there." It's physically impossible to reconcile the notion of the B2B buyer becoming more like the B2C buyer and the committee growing, ever larger and more influential.
They're opposite ideas and yet we're fed both of them by the pundits. The experts in B2B sales, with the exception of what I'll call the four horsemen of Outbound, right? Jeb Blount, Anthony Iannarino, Mike Weinberg, Mark Hunter, people around that set go, "No, no, no, you don't get it. None of that stuff's happened." What's happening is the scared buyer is still the scared buyer I must talk to a seller that they learned to trust. And that seller is when it tell them what to buy. And they're going to earn that trust by being trust able at the beginning, and then trust worthy over time.
They actually have information asymmetry. They know better than the buyer, and so they will be the trusted advisor. Think of the contradiction between the B2B buyer being B2C and the need for the trusted advisor and the growth of the committee. All of these are contradictory ideas. And nobody exposes the contradiction. "Oh no, no. They're all happening." Why? Because as an expert, I can make more money selling sales techniques to you. If you believe all this crap, right?
But what's really happening is nothing has changed, except this internet thing has provided so much additional information in the form of scary noise. The buyer has become more conservative rather than less. And that more conservative buyer expresses themselves in the larger committee. The committee is an insurance policy against the individual buyer, making the decision and being held accountable. So the committee is not a corporate idea like, "Wow, we need to have 10 people involved in every sale."
It is, "Wow! It's so confusing out there. Things are moving so fast. So if velocity increasing and information flow and availability increasing. And so here I am as the buyer, what do I do for safety? There's safety in numbers. I'm not going to make this decision by myself. I'm going to make it with others. However, only one person in that committee, whoever it is who kind of is guiding it, or is the person that everybody else is looking to the person who would have been alone. If there hadn't been the committee, that person is going to rely completely on trusting one of the sellers more than they trust themselves.
The threshold for a B2B purchase decision is not to trust one of the sellers more than you trust the other sellers. It's to trust one of the sellers more than you trust yourself. This is the essence of the B2B equations from a market dominance standpoint. Now we go all the way back to, Oh, look what happened. Private equity came in and wrecked the landscape for buying companies in order to enter markets.
So now I have to enter markets by myself, which means I have to sell my way into markets. So now I'm on the outside, my buyers are these cautious creatures who aggregated into these committees when they're doing serious buying. So I have to somehow gain an advantage there over all my competitors in order to dominate this market.
Before I could take my balance sheet and get an advantage by cleverly identifying a company that was ready to sell itself. To me, that's hard. Now I have to do something though 100 times harder, which is I've got to get this cautious animal called the B2B buyer first identified, as to find them. Then I got to get their trust. And then I got to grow their trust through a process in which new players are going to come in and that trust has got to go out into the committee, somehow.
I have to exceed a threshold I'm not aware of, which is they have to trust me more than they trust themselves. Otherwise, they're going to go to the standard outcome of a B2B buyer, which is no decision. 90% of all B2B purchasing processes end in no decision. The reason is none of the sellers climb the mountain high enough, the trust mountain high enough to be trusted more than the buyer trust themselves. This is the essence of the entire market domination and therefore survival question for every B2B company.
Announcer (19:22):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys Radio, sponsored by ConnectAndSell right here in the funnel radio channel. For at-work listeners, like you.
What do you need to believe when you ask someone for 15 minutes of their time? What’s the underlying emotional and rational DNA of true belief that is pulsing through your brain?
And even beyond this, it would be helpful to remind our listeners about our mission here at the Market Dominance Guys…what’s the real reason these nuances and steps and tactics of market dominance even matter? Because, after all, if we don't get past the discovery step consistently we can never dominate our market.
So all of these steps are not necessarily put in place for the salesperson themselves to be successful, although that is great byproduct; The real underlying purpose of all of this is to provide an alternative or an adjunct to the traditional funding, mergers, and acquisitions as a way of executing corporate strategy …That’s actually the purpose of all this…as my esteemed and candid co-host is very fond of saying, “You can go sell any damn way you want…if you DON’T want to dominate markets. Why? No one will care.”
In this episode, I poke Chris into a controlled burn on the mathematics, the reasoning, and the basic economics of how to dominate your market…and why it matters even more in today’s booming economy. This is “No Tourists Allowed: Are You Serious about Reaching the top of your Market.”
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ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it! ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. So come on… give your fingers a rest with ConnectAndSell! Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with
Ask 50 bartenders how to make the best Tom Collins and 48 out 50 will tell you: Pour 1 oz Freshly squeezed lemon juice, 1 1/2 oz Gin, 2 oz Carbonated water and 1/2 oz Sugar syrup and shake. Now ask 50 sales professionals how to “make” the best Discovery call and you’ll get 50 different answers. Have an agenda. Build rapport. Establish time frames. Set a power frame. Identify a budget upfront or don’t do the call at all. Do a question stack. Talk a lot. Talk a little. It seems that everyone has their own recipe, and yet they are still calling it by the same name. Now sales discovery calls have been around at least as long as the vaunted and debonair Tom Collins. So why do they differ so broadly, and what ARE the necessary ingredients for creating a great Discovery session? In this session of the Market Dominance Guys, I ask Chris – a master mixologist in his own right – for the best additives – including trust, tone, and pace to earn a true confession in a Discovery. This is “The Confessional is Now Open – How to Harvest Authentic Trust in your Discovery Calls”
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ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (01:06):
Ask 50 bartenders how to make the best Tom Collins and 48 out of 50 will tell you, "Pour one-ounce freshly squeezed lemon juice, an ounce and a half a gin, two ounces of carbonated water, and a half ounce of sugar syrup, and then shake well." Now ask 50 sales professionals how to make the best discovery call cocktail and you'll get 50 different answers. Maybe they'll say, "Have an agenda, build rapport, establish timeframes, do a question stack, identify a budget upfront, or don't do the call at all. Talk a little, talk a lot." It seems that everyone has their own recipe. And yet they are still calling it by the same name.
Now, sales discovery calls have been around at least as long as the vaunted and debonair Tom Collins drink. So why do they differ so broadly? And what are the necessary ingredients to creating a great discovery session? In this session of the Market Dominance Guys, I asked Chris, a master sales mixologist in his own right, for the best additives, including trust and tone and how to pace to earn a true confession in a discovery call. This is, the confessional is now open, how to harvest authentic trust in your discovery calls.
Product is, how do I go about navigating putting the right steps, the mood lighting if you will, for a good discovery call to get them to feel ... confession isn't out in the open in church, right? The music's in the background and the curtain and there's the screen and I feel safe to talk about some of these issues because you are a white-jacketed professional who's already demonstrated to me that you've solved problems like this in the past. And, "I've never told anybody this, but here's the problem that I have. Maybe you can help." It rarely gets to that point of trust in most discovery calls I find. How do you get that spark going?
Chris Beall (03:22):
Yeah. So first is the very thing that you talked about. At the very top of the funnel we have to believe, truly believe, in the potential value of the meeting for this human being. And that's what we're selling. Now we're having the discovery meeting. So the very first thing we have to do, remember we don't have rapport yet with this individual. They've simply decided to take the meeting, so step one is to take that as sufficient trust for you to approach me and turn that into an opportunity for rapport.
There are tons of ways of doing this. There are a lot of people who are expert at it. I have my own way of doing it. I simply ask the person I say, "It really helps me to know where somebody is when I'm talking to them in this world where we're all removed from each other, where are you on the face of our blue, whirling planet right now?"
And the reason I ask it like that is twofold. One is I want them to have a picture, that classic picture of the earth from space, the one in which we're all together, because I want to bring us closer together. So the farther away the view, the closer together folks in the picture. So we're both in the same boat. Here we are. We're on this blue whirling planet. I want to see that Earthrise over the moon planet, that picture, right? That famous picture. I'm trying to get at that in their head because it takes this where you're over here and I'm over here and it pulls us together. And we're both in here. And that's why I say blue, because when you look at the earth from far away, it just looks blue, right? Because it's mostly ocean. And the fact that it's whirling, time is going by, we're spending our precious time together. So, where are you on the face of our blue, whirling planet?
And then they'll talk about where they are usually with pride. Almost everyone is proud of where they live. So they have an opportunity to express something that's a value to them, which is pride. That's why don't ask about the weather, because people aren't proud of their weather, they're proud of where they live, they chose it. They're making the best of it. They might be moving from there to somewhere else. They may have a story about it. So immediately some openness starts. And it's very rare that somebody won't speak for two or three minutes. Then they remember it, that they're dominating the conversation and then they politely ask, "So where are you?" And I always tell him something that's very personal. "Well, I'm here in Reno, Nevada. And what I'm actually doing right now is I'm trotting on this trail, because I love to get out and run while I'm talking."
"Wow, really?" And that's just ... it's different, right? So it causes them to remember this part of the conversation, it's just about people. So I want to go from the setting of it's about problems. I want to avoid that issue to start with and just have it be about two people having a conversation in some setting, the setting is we're far apart, but we're close together. You're in a place that you're proud of. I'm an interesting person because I'm doing something interesting or I'm in an interesting place and I'm proud of where I am too. Okay. So now we're done with that.
The second question I tend to ask in discovery is this. I say, "I took a look at your website and I kind of think I get what you guys do, but I've learned the hard way that I'm always wrong when it comes to guessing about somebody else's business. So if you could help me out here, here's something that I'd find useful. If you have a perfect customer, everything's great, perfect client, perfect customer, perfect fit, your product is exactly what they need. They have the means to buy it. They're not pushing back on price. Your customer success people or support people are going to have a very easy time with them. They have the right attitude. When everything goes perfectly in your business, how does that change your customer's life?"
And I always ask it exactly like that, because now I'm [inaudible 00:07:11] mission, and everyone is proud of the mission that they're on, but they don't get to think about it very often. They're lost in the minutia of day to day, the challenges of not having enough time, enough resource or enough support to do their job as well as they think it should be done. After all, that's why they took the meeting. They took the meeting because they resonated with one of the three. They had an emotional or an economic or a strategic reason to take the meeting based on their personal experience, not on their problem.
Corey Frank (07:40):
But, Chris, you're talking about is you now have two questions that ... let me back up for a moment. We started with Sebastian Maniscalco and the company bit, and he was on Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee with Jerry Seinfeld a couple episodes ago. And Seinfeld has a really insightful piece on the New York Times video magazine about how to write a joke. He calls it the pop tart joke. Seinfeld shows the actual, a browned yellow legal pad, free hand in a Bic number two blue ballpoint pen that he's written and crossed out and moved the words around. And he says, "I worked three years on this one joke to the point where every word is in the place where it needs to be." And he talks about chimps in the dirt, playing with sticks and how the tone and the syllabic transition has to be just right for the timing.
And what I hear you saying is, the blue, whirling world right now, right? That has been tested and retested and refined. You say it with an exuberance of an intensity of real curiosity, of intimacy, of empathy. And then the second question that you talk about where you struggle a little bit with the broken wing, as an amateur salesperson, I could say, "Oh, Chris is asking. So where you calling from?" [crosstalk 00:09:15] Chris, I did the same thing you did. And I could say, "So what exactly do you guys do over there? And I get different reactions." Wait a minute, Chris, I said the same thing you did. No, no, you don't understand. Yours reeks of empathy and true interest. And it seems like I could, as a sales person, feel like I'm doing the same thing you are.
"What do you mean? I'm building rapport. I asked them where they were, and I asked them what they did. Then I went and I said, 'Okay.' And maybe I didn't respond with an empathetic tone. I would say, 'Anyway, so let's just jump right into this.'" And the prospect feels like, "Did you care about my answer at all? Or are you following some sort of script?" And it's like, at that point, the call is dead. And now the product would have to really be fantastic for them to supersede a terrible opening that I just gave.
But nevertheless, we see that all the time. So this element of tone that you have, dropping your voice. I just think that, that is ... can that be taught? Does that take practice? Does that need real coaching behind that to make sure. Because even if ... my product demo could be off a little bit, but if my tonality in my empathy is at the level that you just demonstrated, it seems like that's going to buy me a little bit more time, because I'm now likable. I've connected. I've had a little bit of trust in that initial call. So, but I see that all the time.
Chris Beall (10:43):
Yeah. Can it be taught? Absolutely. Must it be coached? Yeah, because we drift, and we drift because our personal lives and our professional pressures cause us to get in a hurry and skip micro steps. That little step where you check yourself before you even start the conversation to make sure that you're sincerely interested and not just saying the words, that your curiosity is real.
Just like before you go on stage, if you were a Jerry Seinfeld. Jerry Seinfeld I'm sure has a checklist before he walks out on stage. And that checklist is run 95% inside of himself, because if he is not on, and that's what it's referred to in that business, as being on, if he's not on, he's dead and he'll find out how dead he is. In front of a comedy audience, you're dead within three or four seconds. Walk out there and then start talking, you run the checklist internally.
I run an internal checklist before every discovery call. I ask myself, how do I feel physically? How sharp am I mentally? How much do I care right now about our own business and about somebody else's potential to take advantage it? And how open am I to learning something new? Those are the four things on my checklist. It takes me five or six seconds to go through the whole thing. But I go through that checklist and I never initiate a call. As experienced as I am at this, I'm too experienced to initiate a conversation with somebody without going through my checklist internally. It's a 100% internal. I don't care about, do I have some materials? Have I prepped this or that? Am I ready to show them a demo? That stuff's all garbage.
All that really counts and the strategy within the discovery conversation is that we go from sufficient trust that the person is willing to approach me and come to the meeting to actual rapport. Rapport means we're doing things together. We're not moving and having to check each other. We begin to move in the same way. True rapport. We're walking side by side. Our steps are matching. When I speak, they listen. When they speak, I listen. That's rapport. Rapport is in an emotional state. Rapport is an operating condition that can be achieved between two people. When we're in harmony, in sync with each other, it's very intimate. In a sense, it's very mechanical. But to get to the point of being in rapport, you have to practice it with each other. So you need a safe place to practice rapport. So where are you on the face of our blue, whirling planet? And every word counts. Where are you on the face of our blue, whirling planet?
We share it. It's blue. It's vast. We're tiny. We're here together. It's whirling. Time is going by. It's a planet. It's not just some dirt. If I give somebody that to say, 100% of the time, they'll make up some other words and tell me it's the same thing. That's right. We just had one just for the 27 seconds that was funny, a call yesterday with somebody who will remain unknown, and he's the owner of the company he's personally calling.
So they changed the 27 seconds to 17 seconds. And then say, "Well, nobody stayed on. People were hanging up on us. We said the same thing." No, you didn't. You change 27 seconds to 17 seconds. So you actually sounded like you weren't serious. Like you were lying. Because nobody could get something done in 17 seconds, so you weren't credible. Simple mechanical issue. You only put 23 pounds of pressure in a tire that needs 38. And you're wondering why the car doesn't handle it correctly. Well, there was some PSI in there. Isn't that good enough? No, it's got to be a right amount.
Corey Frank (14:25):
The new Top Gun trailer just came out and it reminded me, I used to do a bit where I'd teach some of the sales reps that, remember the movie, Top Gun. They're in the bar and they first see the villain in the movie, Val Kilmer, Iceman. And Goose is re-introducing Maverick to Iceman, "Hey, why did they call him Iceman?" Said, "Because he flies ice cold. He waits for the other person to make a mistake. He is an automaton. He is a robot of efficiency."
The skill then is, how do you do these things? I have no doubt, Chris, that when you say, "Hey, where are you in the face of our blue, whirling planet, Corey?" Right? The pauses, the staccato, the musicality is exactly the same. If I track that on an oscilloscope for your last 100 calls, there would be almost zero deviance in there. And that's locked in, and you are now the Iceman when it comes to that bit. And if I can put the little mini steps where I just aced that, and then I ace the opening and then I ace the next rock and the next rock and the next rock. Before you know it, I've created so much positive momentum that it does become very predictable.
Chris Beall (15:45):
Yeah. What's funny is, all you're trying to get to is a state where the person is comfortable confessing.
Corey Frank (15:52):
The state where the person is comfortable, yeah.
Chris Beall (15:54):
That's all you're trying to get to. And you do that with what you say and how you say it, and with what's inside of you that supports what you say and how you say it, which is actually the key. And the openness is the real internal key, because if you're not open and curious, then it comes out in your voice and nobody's going to want to confess to you. People want to confess where they will be heard. They don't want to confess to somebody who has an agenda. So if your agenda, in fact, this is why I do not open discovery calls with an agenda. Because as soon as I've been an agenda in place, I'm saying my purpose is to get you to a condition where you're more likely to buy from me, no matter what the agenda is.
And if you need to talk more, I'm not going to listen because I have my agenda. But a confession is a confession. We don't know how long it should take. Here's how that actually goes in time. Those first two parts, the first one will take about a minute and a half to two minutes, and somebody will talk about where they are. And then they'll ask you, because after two minutes, they get uncomfortable with dominating the conversation, because now they're flowing and they think, "Oh, I shouldn't do that. That's impolite," and they'll ask you where you are, which is the immediate rapport. You're back and forth. You're actually, this is like a warmup to play a game of tennis with somebody. You don't start right out in the court with a big booming serve. You politely hit some balls back and forth to warm each other up, because that's what's fair, right? That's what's fair. It's how we start a game of tennis.
People tend to ignore this part of the game. This is a critical part. By the way, when you're playing friendly tennis, right? I used to play a lot of it, the warmup is where you actually establish the feel for what it is that you're going to do with each other, because you're not really just trying to beat each other's brains in. It's competitive, but it's still friendly. So that first question, minute and a half or so, then you take 15 to 30 seconds to say something about where you are and how much you like it. Just saying how much you like where you are is a positive thing. They're proud of where they are, what they're doing. They may have something interesting to say about it.
You say something interesting and you say you like where you are. Then when you ask them the second question, which is about their mission, you just shut up afterwards and they could go on. So the time that that takes is somewhere between 15 seconds, they don't think about their mission much. And it's really hard to help people like that, or they love what they're doing and how it changes somebody's life. And they just go on and on and you just let them go. There's actually no time where you ever stopped that, because that will contain the entire confession. You have to never ask another question. If they give you everything about the mission, then when the mission is getting stuck in some way, when they can't get the job done as well as they want, they're going to talk about that stuff. And all you have to do is just listen. You're done. I mean, discovery will take place entirely within the answer to that question.
When everything goes perfectly, when it's the perfect customer, when is the perfect situation, when the delivery is perfect, where your people just nail it, where the timing is great, where the customer has the means to buy the product and doesn't push back on price. When everything goes perfectly, how does your offering change that person's life? And then that's the key question, how does it change their life? You've recontextualized the whole thing in terms of true, ultimate value for a human being. Not the value you're going to provide them, but the value that they are providing others. Folks love to talk about the value they're providing others. Let them do it.
Corey Frank (19:38):
Even if they're in database management at American Express, by asking that question, I mean, you could get whether they are strategically minded. [crosstalk 00:19:51] just want to make sure that if somebody is on vacation, that when they swipe their card at the scuba shop in Jamaica, that it goes through. Or they could maybe lend it to their world, is that something more tactical. "My guys don't have to work on the weekend because we're running a very smooth, tight, under budget shop and we get our requirements done right the first time," so.
Chris Beall (20:17):
Exactly. So now they finished their confession, right? So you're actually kind of done, except you haven't told them what you do. So at that point, it's very awkward for them because they've really dominated the conversation, which you want them to do. And they're just [inaudible 00:20:34]. And then at some point they kind of go, "Oh, there's not a lot of time left." I'll often let it run up to within three minutes of the end of the meeting. I mean, this would shock most people in sales. I now have three minutes to tell them what we do. But remember, all we're trying to do is determine whether it makes sense to move to the next step. So how much did they need to know about what I do?
Well, they need to know one thing that I believe we do that addresses an economic issue. One thing that I believe that we do that addresses an emotional issue, almost always frustration. And one thing that I believe that we do that allows for a strategic result to be achieved, that would otherwise be difficult. So there was only three reasons that anybody ever avails themselves of something new, it either makes them money or reduces risk or save them money. That's all economic. The risk being just the probability of getting those savings or those new winning, or their life is dominated by something that's frustrating them, very rarely a positive emotion. There's normally frustration. That's the nature of work. We're frustrated when we don't have the time, we don't have the resources or we don't have the support to do our job as well as we believe it should be done. This is what Deming taught us back in the 50s. People work for pride of workmanship.
They don't work for money. They work for pride of workmanship, and they're frustrated when they don't get pride of workmanship because they don't have the time, the resources, the support to do their job as well as they think they should do it. And then strategy is pretty simple. Everybody's trying to go somewhere. My product can help them take a step. If that step is a step within their strategy, we can help with their strategy. And whatever they respond to, this is the hardest thing in the world I think for salespeople to do, the very, very hardest. If somebody says, "It's really, really frustrating for me because my reps just won't use the phone." And I say, "Yeah, and you know what's great about ConnectAndSell? It's going to save you a bunch of money."
When I refuse to abandoned the other two, when they [crosstalk 00:22:48] one of the three, I basically am saying truly, truly, I'm not listening to you and I don't care about you at all. But reps hate to give up anything it's like, "But what if the cost savings were important to them? What of making more revenue were important to them? What if dominating the market's important to them?" And their sales manager will say, "You didn't mention this, this and this," when they listen to the [crosstalk 00:23:12]. But the key to everything is to reduce the problem set to be discussed by a factor of 66%. That's what you're looking to do right then.
Then if there's something left, there's a fourth answer by the way, there's a fourth thing, which is none of the above, in which case you don't move forward. So if they resonate with the economics, if they resonate with the emotional, or they resonate with the strategic, you immediately abandon the two they don't resonate with and they're qualified to move forward. If they don't resonate with any of those three, they're not qualified to move forward. It's very objective. It's not their answer to their budget question, their timing question, their this question, their that question. In discovery, we're trying to find out, is there a fundamental reason for us to take one more step? And if you hate your life because of something that I can help you with, and it's emotional, there's a reason to go forward. We might find the money at that point.
Corey Frank (24:06):
But I've already established trust with you in rapport. I've already confessed things. So the likelihood that even in this last three minutes, I may not have the comprehension to fully understand your value proposition and those things that you're talking about. But because you're just such a likable, empathetic guy, I'm going to give you that next meeting, which would be more of the formal demo at that point. But if I've ruined or rushed the confession, the priest isn't there looking at his watch saying, "Okay, come on, come on, come on, come, come on."
Chris Beall (24:42):
Yeah, and I'm sure there are priests like that. I mean, being a confessor is a nuanced art form. It is performance art at the highest level. And what's so interesting about this approach-
Corey Frank (24:56):
Performance art at the highest level.
Chris Beall (24:59):
It is, it's truly. It's performance art at the highest level. Sales is essentially, you're asking somebody to adopt you as their confessor. So it's even harder because you don't have the magnificence and the tradition of the church. All you've got is yourself. The horror, the sliminess of the tradition of the salesperson at the crossroads, trying to get you to pay as much as possible, and then go on your merry way, you actually have a harder job as the salesperson. But without doing that job, you're doomed because all you get then is the lucky hits. You're not looking to get the lucky hits. That's why we call it discovery. We're trying to discover.
Now to go back to, what was the value of the meeting? It turns out in a great discovery meeting, the value of the meeting is the person in their confession, discovers truths about their own situation that they were unaware of. And that's valuable. So oddly enough, the value of the meeting isn't learning about your product, it's learning about yourself and your situation and clarifying it. Then hearing that there is something that could help with one of these, maybe all three of these aspects, something about, "Hey, this is wasteful and it's driving me nuts." Something about, "I never seem to have enough time to get everything done." Something about, "Every time we try to go down the road and try to get to where we're going, we're blocked and we can't do it, that strategy." They get to hear that, "Hey, for my truth, there's a possible light at the end of the tunnel. There's a door that might open." That's what they could learn. That's [crosstalk 00:26:37]-
Corey Frank (26:36):
Discovery, but it's really self-discovery.
Chris Beall (26:39):
Self discovery. And then one little piece of self-discovery plus rational hope.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys, sponsored by ConnectAndSell, right here in the Funnel Radio Channel, for at-work listeners like you.
Alex Honnold, one of the most talented mountain climbers in the world – who is the only man to ever successfully summit El Capitan free solo – and that means no ropes - by the way – had a strategy. And his strategy did not reach the top of the mountain. That was his ultimate destination. His strategy was to map the 30 sections – or “pitches” as they are called in climbing parlance - and practice the necessary and wide variety of different skills needed to manage each of these 30 precarious steps. Now as a sales professional, I find it fascinating that climbers call each section of a mountain a pitch…especially because, in this episode of the market dominance guys, Chris talks about strategy in much the same way Alex attacks a mountain…as simply a list of necessary and intermediate destinations leading to the summit or close. And each of these strategies needs to employ the proper tactic – or in this case – the proper pitch. This episode of Market Dominance Guys is “How to Free Solo your Pitch”.
----more----
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (01:06):
Alex Honnold, one of the most talented mountain climbers in the world, who is the only man to ever successfully summit El Capitan in Yosemite, a free solo by the way, and that means no ropes, had a strategy. And Alex's strategy was not just to reach the top of the mountain. That was his ultimate destination, but his strategy was to map the 30 sections, or pitches as they're called in climbing parlance, and practice the necessary and wide variety of maneuvers and skills needed to manage each of these 30 precarious steps.
Now as a sales professional, I find it, first of all, fascinating that climbers call each section of a mountain, a pitch, especially in this episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris and I are going to talk about strategy in much the same way that Alex attacks a mountain. As simply a list of necessary and intermediate destinations leading to the summit or the close. And in each of these strategies, how do you employ the proper tactics, or in this case, the proper pitch? This is how to free solo your pitch.
You were saying that we are experts at strangers. We see, sense, can feel the seismic disruption in the force of strangers when they come into our life, albeit via phone or for a conference call or what have you. And so we're pre-wired to know that strangers, these invisible strangers, are inherently never a good thing. And so by understanding that, it's like I've seen the problem in the world and it's me. By starting from that very self aware versus being self-absorbed perspective, I think that's going to step one, chapter one of how a sales rep can have a successful discovery call. And so I think that's what we wanted to chat about today a little bit, is that this breakthrough that I really liked you talking about last time, is that the discovery call is the product, should be a product in and of itself, separate from the product.
And that if your discovery call is all about an inquisition, all about questions that the prospect can see a mile away is only going to be used to box me into a corner with some fancy alternate choice questioning technique, then that's not a successful discovery call because it doesn't lead with value. It doesn't have any value separate from the product itself. And if you do that and you do the example you used with the black widows in the garage with the Raid, it only makes them angry. So you have to have the right repellent or attractant, otherwise you're only going to piss off the person that you were intent on. You can't be like Evel Knievel and jump over discovery into the close, into the product demo. It has to be something that has much more of a nutritional value, much meatier in this case.
So I think that's probably a good place to start for today, is the discovery call. And how it has value, how it doesn't become successful, how you screw it up. Maybe a little bit of the biophysiology of why we need a good discovery call anyway and why it's the surest path, even though it takes a little bit more time and reps want to jump it, they want that Candyland shortcut, but it truly is the best way to get to a sale and then ultimately market dominance.
Chris Beall (04:52):
And number one is that the discovery call is a destination. You're not trying to get to a deal. The destination, and this is true of any strategy, by the way. It's kind of funny, when people talk strategy, so I'll back up into strategy just a little bit. They often are talking about the equivalent of standing at the bottom of the mountain and looking at the summit and saying my strategy is to get to the summit. But that's not a strategy. The strategy would be, looks to me like this crack right here on the northwest ridge is a good place to start. And there's a ledge up there that I see. And from there, it looks like we can traverse 50, 60 feet to the left, and now we can get into this big chimney over there and we can go up.
It's a series of steps. A strategy is in fact, a series of destination and each destination has the quality that it gets us closer to or reduces the cost and risk associated with getting to the next destination. And if we string them all together, we get to our ultimate destination. So people are very confused about strategy in the first place. They think strategic means important or final. And strategic has nothing to do with what's important and nothing to do with what's final. It simply is a list. Strategy is a list of intermediate destinations, each one of which reduces the cost and risk of getting to the next destination on the list. That's it.
If you want to cross a river, you don't want to get in and swim perhaps because you have some issue with that and there's rocks in the river. The strategy is I stand on this rock and then I go to this rock and then I go to this rock. I go to this rock and some of them might appear to be coming back toward the shore I came from, but I can string them all together and arrive at my final destination. But each rock-
Corey Frank (06:33):
But folks would say that those are tactics, but you're saying that there's a whole bunch of little tactics to make the strategy, but the strategy in and of itself is made up of these little stepping stones. And some folks like to skip over all that and just get to the top of the mountain.
Chris Beall (06:51):
Yeah, the tactic is how you execute a strategic step. How I get to that next destination. That's a tactic. So for instance, if my destination is a discovery call, that's my first destination. My tactic could be I call somebody on the phone and I use that breakthrough script. My tactic could be that I send them an email. My tactic could be that I make a presentation to a group of such people and see which ones respond to my presentation and talk to them in person. My tactic could be to put a billboard up outside their office that says, "Hey, we got something cool going on, come learn about it and here's a website or a phone number."
All those are tactics. Tactics are all hows. Strategies are lists of wheres, of destinations. And the first destination is the only one that counts at any given point or the next one is the only one that counts. And so when you begin the process, the safe thing to do is ignore the second rock, the third rock, the fourth rock, the fifth rock, because you've got to jump and land on the first rock. And if you're trying to jump to the second rock while you're trying to land on the first rock, you will land in the river. And that's what happens to most salespeople. They don't see the value, they don't understand the value for the person they're going with. Because they're saying, "Hold hands with me, oh prospect, and we'll jump to this rock here that we call discovery."
And then the salesperson, as they're about to take off says, "Well, really, really, really though, there's this other one. I think I can almost get to it. Let's just jump over there." And then splash, you both go in the river and it's not so great. You can only accomplish one strategic step at a time. You need to focus on it. You need to treat it as a destination. You have to maximize the odds of getting there with the person you want to get there with. And then you need to consider, do I take the next step or not? Because one thing that's true in sales strategies, all sales strategies have intermediate qualification. That is at some point, you find out that it doesn't make sense right now to move to the next step. So each one has that special quality that not only are you going there for an independent purpose, independent value, that's going to be delivered to the person who's going there with you. But one of the outcomes that's okay, is you say, "Let's not move forward together."
And that's the other thing that salespeople have such a hard time with in their heads, is they don't think it's okay to go to the first step with somebody that they're not sure is going to go to the second step. But it's in the first step, discovery, where you discover if you should go to the second step. So presuming anything about whether they should go to the second step, that is beyond discovery to a demo, to a test drive, to a POC, wherever it is your next step might be, having any assumption about that whatsoever, again, pulls you off course and makes it harder to sell the first step on its own as independent value.
The core belief that's needed for a salesperson in the top of the funnel conversation, whether it's a cold call or whether it's a follow-up call, a second conversation, third conversation or whatever. The core belief that they need to have really deep inside is they need to believe in the value of the meeting that they're offering, the discovery meeting. For the person they're talking to, not their company, but that human being. In the case, which they would consider the downside case, where there will never be any business done between your company and their company. That's the core belief.
If a person believes that, they can use almost any tactics at the top of the funnel. Then it's just a question of efficiency. How much time do they have in order to get the job done? And recalling always, the job is market dominance. The job isn't to make the sale, the job is to exhaust the market of possibilities so that when your competitor comes along, basically it is scorched earth. You've talked with everybody in a sensible way, everybody who's relevant before they talk to anybody. That's the ultimate winning approach. It's above a strategy. It's an approach. It's a paradigm for going to market. And it says basically if I work my way all the way back through, the only safe position is dominance. All nondominant companies go out of business. It's just a matter of time.
So I've got to seek safety. I need to find the high ground of dominance. To find the high ground of dominance, I need to have something to dominate. We call that a market. In order to be able to dominate that market, I need to condition the market in my favor and against all competitors, current and future. The most reliable way to do that is to establish trust with every relevant person in that market. The only way to do that is to have conversations with every relevant person in that market, because it takes about 600,000 bits of information going back and forth to establish trust. And I can't do that with digital means. I can't do that with emails that have 5,000 bits of information each. How can I get somebody to read 120 emails before we ever speak? That doesn't happen.
I can't do it with social, which is even worse. Social communication is shorter than email. I might have to have 7 or 800 social communications before somebody begins to trust me. And then I'm in a noisy environment where others are being mistrustful and not trustworthy. And so that environment is a tough environment for me to operate in. Have conversations in a private environment, where somebody can choose to begin to trust me based on just the information I'm providing, not all the noise that everybody else is providing that's trying to counter, confuse, mess with what I'm trying to do here, which is to be a person to another person.
Corey Frank (12:12):
Sure.
Chris Beall (12:12):
So I'm kind of stuck, right? If I want to have a business that stays in business, I must dominate a market. To dominate a market, I need to talk to everybody in the market who's relevant. I need to talk to them in a way that is meaningful to all of them. The only product that I can sell to every single person in that market is a discovery conversation that educates them with regard to something I know that's of potential value to them that they probably don't know and it's okay that they don't know it. That's the other key. It has to be okay for them not to know it. It has to be safe. It has to be-
Corey Frank (12:46):
For them to admit that I don't know this.
Chris Beall (12:48):
Exactly. And the beauty is, as the vendor, I always know what the customer doesn't because I'm a specialist. They're a specialist in their business, I'm a specialist in my business. A specialist can always teach a generalist. So the information that I have as a specialist is okay for you as a generalist to say, I want to learn this. You don't have to do anything to your self image, except I'm a learner. Whereas other, if I'd say to you, "Gosh, Corey, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough system that allows you to make coffee in the morning." And you'd say, "Well, I'm set."
And you're thinking, what kind of idiot does this guy think I am? He thinks that I don't even know how to make coffee and that's an important thing to do? That's the standard opening pitch. "Hey, Corey, let me tell you about a category of product that every competent person in your position has already considered in order to solve a problem they have." Otherwise, I wouldn't be calling you and telling you.
Corey Frank (13:47):
But is that laziness, Chris? Or do some companies just don't have that thought, what problem in the world does your product solve? But if I'm a sales rep working for an established company, it seems like that is a violation of the rules of nature, if I throw out some broad based ubiquitous benefit that insults the prospect in the first 30 seconds of the call, either due to laziness, it's not thinking about their product in the right way. It seems like that's so prevalent in the world, is that sales reps won't spring off their first step and have something that is more of a specialist benefit. And instead, "Hey, we have a better, faster way to do X and Y and Z. Like to take a few minutes of your time and maybe schedule a demo and talk to you about that."
Chris Beall (14:44):
Yeah, so I don't think it's laziness. I think it's actually a misunderstanding of the situation. The problem is this, if I'm going to speak to you narrowly about something that's special and I'm going to do it before we're in a discovery conversation. So I'm trying to get you into the discovery conversation first, and I'm going to speak narrowly, the chance of me hitting your current problem, which by the way I can't do anyway, because your problem is me in the first conversation. But say as a lucky guess I could hit problem number two, one that's in the back of your mind. You just turned away from that problem to answer the phone. So the narrower my targeting of what I'd have on offer, the lower probability of me hitting your problem, because the narrow problem is something that's had by a smaller number of people right now.
So I have a problem at the very, very top of the funnel. And again, this goes all the way back to the peculiarity of the times we live in. This problem was not worth solving 20 years ago. It simply wasn't. There were very few companies that were bottle necked above the top of their funnel 20 years ago. They were bottle necked on delivery and on innovation. So delivery and innovation, I can't deliver more of the stuff that I'm selling. I've got channel issues, I have delivery channel issues. I've got all this stuff. And oh, by the way, I got to keep up with whatever's going on in the market. I got innovation issues. Now it's flipped around. Everybody can innovate. Everybody can deliver. And nobody has enough people to talk to.
So we have a new problem that's worth solving, which is, how do we just breakthrough above the top of the funnel? Which is a universal problem for all B2B businesses now. And in so doing, what universal factor or situation or fact can we use in order to make every single conversation at just above the top of the funnel? That's a prospecting or lead generation kind of conversation. Make everyone stand on reliable ground. A guess as to somebody's business problem is not reliable ground, because the narrower my guess, that is the more value I bring, the lower the probability of actually hitting the target. And I've got to dominate the market by talking to everybody in discovery.
My problem is I need for a market of 10,000, I need 2,000 discovery calls in the first year. So that by the time I'm through with the third year, I have 6,000 discovery calls and I've hit more than half the market. And anybody comes in now, three out of five times at random, they run into somebody I've already spoken with. So I'm conditioning the market for all time against all competitors by having discovery conversations rapidly enough. Therefore, my discovery conversation needs to be an independently sellable product. I'm going to sell it for time. You give me 15 minutes, I'll teach you something. And I need to know what I'm likely to teach them.
Corey Frank (17:24):
Because information is so readily available today versus 20 years ago, you as a salesperson, you were the necessary evil because I needed you for more than the price. You were going to give me information that wasn't available because you had access to catalogs and trade shows and manifests and scenarios and case studies. I couldn't pull up a white paper as easily as I can today and know more about your three or four competitors in the first 30, 90, 60 seconds of that phone call. Do you have any competition? Well, no, we don't have any competition. Well, according to the research I did in the last 60 seconds, this and this and this and this.
So it seems like the salesperson hasn't evolved past the point where all they're good for today is just figuring out if I can get a lower price than what I can available, what it says on your website. And if I don't evolve to be more of someone who provides value, insight that I can't readily find anywhere else, then I'm going to go the way of the dinosaur.
Chris Beall (18:36):
Yeah, exactly. And the insight is not insight that I can just bring to the meeting because I haven't heard from the prospect, then the true nature of their situation. Their situation is always embedded in something. It's always peculiar, as my mother would say. So it's idiosyncratic. They have their boss, not somebody else's boss. They have their budgetary process, not somebody else's. They have their history of other tools, techniques, and approaches they're using to address this problem. Not someone else's. None of that stuff is publicly available. It's so precise and it's so unique to this individual that offering anything generic as an insight, doesn't make sense.
The insight needs to evolve out of the conversation. That's why it's a discovery meeting, not a discovery presentation. And it has to involve true discovery and what are you trying to discover? You're trying to discover the nature of their situation, such that you can use your expertise and evaluate whether it makes sense to take one more step down this road. That's really all you're doing in discovery. You're not designing a solution. You're not looking to figure out what the ROI would be. You're not doing any of those things. You're not digging into the product details or features. You're simply asking a bunch of questions and they're asking a bunch of questions. You're having an actual conversation to figure out if by and large, in a risk adjusted sense, given the cost of the next step and the risks associated with failure for the next step, does it make sense to take the next step?
That next step could be simple. It could be a demo. It could be more complex, proof of concept. It could be a visit to the site. It could be a decision to bring more people into the process, which is expensive. Whatever it happens to be, we don't know that we should take that step together until we've had a conversation in which the prospect confesses the truth of their situation. So it's really of the form of a confession, not an interrogation.
Corey Frank (20:41):
It seems now that a sales mind person like myself, the answer to, does it make sense to take the next step? Does it make sense to move forward? 100 times out of 100 when I ask that question, my intent is that of course it makes sense from my perspective.
Chris Beall (21:01):
Right.
Corey Frank (21:02):
But I didn't do a thorough job of getting them to confess their problem to establish trust and so every problem is a nail and I'm the hammer. And every prospect is the same. And if they would only take my product for a test run, if they'd only just see the demo in their mind, they don't even have to elaborate it. I know they're going to process silently that, ah, this is a fit. And that's what I'm hoping for as a salesperson, versus getting them to elocute and talk about what the specific issue is. And so if I don't have that trust, I'm not going to give that to you in a good discovery call, no matter how good your call.
Announcer (22:33):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys sponsored by ConnectAndSell, right here in the funnel radio channel for at-work listeners like you.
There is a universal product that every company has that it needs to better understand and sell more effectively and correctly. And it's a product that can be crafted and messaged just like any other product your team sells. Because it’s a real product, it requires belief in its potential value and worth from the folks that sell it. It’s a product that shouldn’t be short-cut or mis-messaged…or even try to do too much. It needs to be measured for effectiveness. And the ability to get this product in front of your list is also one of the keys to market dominance. That product is the Discovery Meeting or Discovery Call. In the episode, I ask Chris to separate fact from fiction and put some sound data and reasoning behind this misunderstood and much-maligned tool. This episode of Market Dominance Guys is The Right Tool for the Right Job, or as I like to call it, Don’t Make the Spiders Angry.
----more----
ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (01:02):
There's a universal product that every company has, that it needs to better understand and sell more effectively and correctly. And it's a product that can be crafted and messaged just like any other product your team sells. And because it's a real product, it requires belief in its potential value and worth for the folks that actually sell it. It's a product that shouldn't be shortcutted or mismessaged, or even try to do too much. It needs to be measured for effectiveness. And the ability to get this product in front of your list is also one of the keys to true market dominance. That product is the discovery meeting or the discovery call. And in this episode, I asked Chris to separate fact from fiction and put some sound data in the reasoning behind this misunderstood and much-maligned sales tool. This is the right tool for the right job, or as I also like to call it, Don't Make the Spiders Angry.
Chris Beall (02:11):
It's subtle as can be, and when people want to change it, it's really fun to listen to them because they want to change it to eliminate the taboos. They want to run from the taboos into the conventional, where they can ask some normal questions. Did I catch you at a bad time? All those kinds of questions feel...
Corey Frank (02:32):
Why is that, Chris? They don't want to express vulnerability, they have an inner governor that says, I don't feel confident enough, vulnerable enough, to go there. And so, it's really on them, not necessarily, they're not ready emotionally to commit themselves to that level of vulnerability in our profession.
Chris Beall (02:58):
Yes. And [inaudible 00:03:01] puts it perfectly, which is, every objection I ever heard was felt as a rejection and went into the banks, the memory banks of, oh my God, I'm going to be rejected again so I'm going to take actions to avoid rejection. And the objection would be, no, I don't have time. To hear that in somebody's voice is actually not to hear, I don't have time but I don't like you, I won't even give you 27 seconds. And that'll happen. There are people who can say no, there are people who'd slam the phone down, there's people who will bark at you. All these things will happen and they accumulate so the emotional courage that it takes to be a cold caller is substantial, even with only two sentences. Even two sentences you can learn, and if you get the emotions right in your voice, you're good.
Now that the cure for it actually is not to go get [inaudible 00:03:55]. The cure is to have a belief. And the belief is in the potential goodness of what you have on offer for the other person, which is never your product. So this is the other huge problem with this approach is there's a desire to skip the step of selling the meeting, which as an object of independent value for this individual, regardless of what is ever going to happen and to jump to selling the product to the company. And that error is the standard error. Once you get past the courage question, then the question is, what do you really sound like? Are you sincere, or you're not sincere? So you need to sincerely believe something to make all of this even-
Corey Frank (04:42):
So a one call close, even if it can be done, shouldn't be done because you rob the prospect of an opportunity to have this trust journey with you. You're really manipulating at that point. So even as a fuller brush sales person, even though they probably hit you over the head, there should be a one call, one door close, you would set the meeting. And that aspect of the meeting is the prize for that instance. That is the objective, that should be the only objective on a cold call at this point.
Chris Beall (05:25):
Yes. And therefore you must believe in your product, your product is the meeting. So you must know what they're likely to get from the meeting independent of ever moving forward to business. So the core belief for successful cold calling is to believe in the potential value of the meeting for the human being that you're talking within the downside case where there's never going to be any business done between your company and theirs. It's precisely that formulation. That's what you must believe in. And you must rationally believe in it, that is you must be able to internally defend that belief to yourself. You must know what they're going to get. And the only thing you could get from a meeting, when people have often said to me, "Oh, what does that mean, you should give them a prize like, they get a $5 gift card?"
No, you must know what they're likely to learn that will make a difference in their life no matter what. They're not sure to learn it because learning is always an iffy proposition, but there's a likelihood, a probability that they're going to walk away from that meeting knowing something they didn't know before, that's a value to them, not to their company. It may be a value to their company, but that's irrelevant. It's a value to that human being. So I'll repeat the formulation. This is the key to the whole thing. If you can accomplish this, the techniques mean almost nothing, but this is hard to accomplish. If you flip it around and you get good at the techniques, you'll get some success, but your success will be limited by the fact that you don't have the correct core belief because people are being [inaudible 00:06:57] listening to voices and they'll hear the lack of sincerity in your voice.
So what can you be sincere about? You can be sincere about this one thing and then it's so important to get there. If there were one thing I would change about every sales organization in the world would be this, that everybody who has first conversations, the leads and the potential value of the meeting that they have on offer for the human being that they're talking with, in the case where there's never going to be business done between the two companies. And those are all important, the word never is important there.
Corey Frank (07:32):
So belief.
Chris Beall (07:33):
Belief in this very specific. Belief in your product gets in the way of belief in the potential value of the meeting. If you try to combine the two beliefs [inaudible 00:07:49] .
Corey Frank (07:49):
But that is the fundamental dispute, they're one and the same. And they are two distinct destinations in your perspective.
Chris Beall (07:58):
Yes. If all you learned from me as a fuller brush man, is that there's such a thing as a spider spray that kills black widow spiders, and you don't buy any from me, you know something new, which is when you're looking for something to kill spiders with, don't use Raid, it just makes them angry, that's a value.
Corey Frank (08:21):
That's awesome. You're already preempting my objection. How will that benefit there? [inaudible 00:08:33]
Chris Beall (08:35):
That's the key. And what's so interesting is we've done the experiments. So for one of our customers who will remain on named here, we took on the project of doing a massive amount of calling for them, using our outbound on-demand service. And we got the script right, we got the messaging right. We knew that this stuff should work. And it only worked at about a 4% conversation to meeting conversion rate. And after three days, I just said, no, no, no. You know, because one of the beauties of ConnectAndSell is in three days you're done, In fact one day, you're done. You're always done in one day. Your signal has come back. If it's working, it's working. If it's not working, you should stop and fix something. That's the whole idea. So in three days, because I was paying attention to other things, I'm looking at the numbers and I go, this is insane.
We can't do what we said we would do with these conversion rates. We're below threshold and we're not moving. And oh, don't worry, they'll learn to do it better. That's never the case. They don't learn to do a better, you teach them to do it and they do it and that's it. So I listened to a bunch of recordings and I thought, what is missing here? What is missing in this paint by numbers thing that I'm hearing and what was missing was the sincerity in the tone of voice. And by the way, these callers were selected specifically for their sincerity, they're graduates of some of the finest religious colleges in the world. They're pre-filtered for sincerity. This is like packaged sincerity on steroids, and yet they were failing. And so the question is well, what's missing. And I thought, oh, well, what's missing is they don't believe in what they're selling.
And in fact, their sincerity about their religious calling is that, that's real, their sincerity about this product is zero. So what could they be sincere about? Well, they think they're selling the product, they're selling the meeting. So we got a customer to actually just tell them in a video testimonial, what the meeting did for them, not what the product did for them, and then what the product did for them. And what they learned in the meeting was that by changing how they dealt with this particular problem in their organization, which happens to be expense management, they would free up time to pursue their own strategic objectives, which is the reason they joined their company in the first place.
They learned about the opportunity to be free to do their job well, like learning that Raid makes black widow spiders angry, and that there's a spider spray that kills them. And then frees you up from having to worry about angry black widow spiders in your garage. They learned that there was a path to freedom in which, if they were to go down that path, they would find themselves with time, with the energy, with the bandwidth to do the job as they really wanted to do it. Instead of being consumed with this meaningless to them sort of ticky tack paperwork back and forth rework job that they were doing.
Corey Frank (11:36):
Sure. But isn't that the different evolutions of sales professionals? Like I remember an article, I think it was about 20, 25 years ago when I first got into sales by the Beverage Institute that talked about the four evolutions of sales professionals and evolution number one, well, what was called the commercial visitor. And the commercial visitor was someone who had a certain level of criteria that classified themselves as such number one, was they fell into sales by accident. Number two, they felt that sales as a profession is living on the fringe of society. This was well even before Sandler's kind of role versus identity where or supplication, they had really an essence, a high need for approval. And they felt that anytime I have to ask for something and taking something from someone and I couldn't square that circle.
And so what you're talking about these folks who had a tough time believing in the product they had to sell, and is that a fundamental mistake for a lot of sales leaders or a lot of visionary CEOs is not necessarily talking about the personal benefits of the product or the learnings that their product has, even if someone never buys, as you had said, and that instead they're dwelling on the better, faster, cheaper, rainbows unicorns world after that the prospect has purchased the product and is paying you their monthly SAS business. And it seems like there's a disconnect and identity perspective or from a messaging perspective of training these new salespeople
Chris Beall (13:20):
There is. And my claim is this, there is a universal product that every company has that it needs to understand and sell correctly. And that product is the discovery meeting. And it's a product that can be crafted, it can be understood like any other product, it can be described sincerely, it has to be delivered correctly. It's a real product so it has delivery. And its purpose is to help somebody understand something of value to them or potential value to them that they didn't understand before. Because the asymmetry in businesses is, if I'm the purveyor, if I'm the vendor, I know I always know more than the person I'm selling to. So the first product I can put on the shelf is the product where I share that knowledge in a way that is useful for this person, even if they don't [inaudible 00:14:11].
That's the universal product, and once you understand that that's the universal product, then you can manufacture and sell discovery meetings in a completely reliable way. And we know from the math of business, that the flow rate of discovery meetings constraints the growth of the business. It's as simple as that actually. This entire thesis is around one thing mathematically, and we were dealing with the human side like how do you get there? Right? Just the manufacturing process for these discovery meetings. But the discovery meeting itself is the product. And this is the hardest thing for sales leaders and marketing leaders together. And this is where the sales and marketing alignment question if we can explore in depth in another one of these discussions. Sales and marketing alignment happens when sales and marketing agree as to what the discovery meeting itself is as a product. As soon as that happens, the entire sales and marketing misalignment problem goes away.
Failing to do that you're left with this evil Knievel approach where I'm going to leap across this huge trust barrier and land on the buy something from a side of the Snake River Canyon. And I end up down in the bottom of the Canyon, almost every single time, which is this whole quota attainment problem and all that kind of stuff. And it's the business failure rate from businesses fail primarily because they don't establish product market fit between the product that they need to sell first and the market and the product they need to sell first is not the product they set out to build, but it's the discovery meeting.
Corey Frank (15:50):
And the discovery meeting, if you had to is it's an educational journey that establishes value if the person never moved forward with the product itself.
Chris Beall (16:06):
That's the absolute. Everything you offer along the journey to possible sale has to have independent value that is value independent of the sale itself. If I apply on that simple construct, you can generate a strategy, a series of steps that you can consistently execute between the starting point, which is being the scary invisible stranger, who is also inconvenient and a possible ending point that is not predetermined, which is somebody deciding that they want to enter into partnership with you and take advantage of your knowledge and what you have to offer as a product and the steps in between are steps of increasing trust and knowledge moving together. And so what you have to share is knowledge. So your product is knowledge and knowledge is shared in a discovery meeting and the opportunity for the person to confess, which is the breaking of a taboo to go back to the original topic, to confess their problem to you. They're paying their situation. That opportunity is actually what's on offer in the discovery meeting. The opportunity for them to confess their problem to somebody that they trust. That's actually what the product is.
Corey Frank (17:22):
I love it.
Announcer (18:09):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys sponsored by ConnectAndSell right here in the Funnel Radio Channel for at-work listeners, like you.
Growing up, your mom probably told you to never talk to strangers. She also said never ask anyone for money. So…fast forward 20 years and find yourself at your desk, a newly minted college grad and a fresh-faced and newly hired sales professional at a great company. And what does your boss tell you to do on your first day? “Um…Josh, I need you to take this list of leads and I need you to call them (i.e. talk to strangers)…oh and then, if they’re really friendly, I need you to ask them to buy something (i.e. ask them for money…or even tougher, ask them for time). Um...ok?”
So how do you step up and actually tackle these taboos and address the social baggage that we all have been taught? How do you reduce fear and build trust…especially since you are even worse than a typical stranger…you are an invisible stranger! In this episode, Chris and I have a little fun in this episode of Market Dominance Guys and discuss “Stranger” Things.
----more----
ConnectAndSell – Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it! ConnectAndSell’s Patented Technology loads your Best Sales folks up with 8-10x more Live qualified Conversations every day….and when we say qualified, we’re talking about really Qualified…like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their impossible whopper - kind of qualified. Learn more at ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:56):
Growing up, your mom probably told you to never talk to strangers. She also said, never asked anyone for money, right? So fast forward 20 years, and find yourself at your desk. A newly minted college grad and a fresh-faced in newly hired sales professional at a great company. And what does your new boss tell you to do on your first day? Josh? I need you to take this list of leads and I need you to call them.
Corey Frank (01:23):
I talk to strangers. Oh, and then your boss says: "if they're really friendly, I need you to ask them to buy something." I, asked them for money or even tougher, ask them for time. So how do you step up and actually tackle these taboos and address the social baggage that we all have been taught, especially about cold-calling.
Corey Frank (01:45):
How do you reduce fear and build trust? Especially since you are even worse than a typical stranger, you are an invisible stranger. So with this episode, Chris and I have a little fun and discuss stranger things.
Chris Beall (02:06):
In cold calling is "how do you step up"? And it turns out there was a very powerful way to do it, which is to break the taboo against being the problem and be straight up, just admit, in fact, proactively declaim, you are the problem. I know I'm an interruption. And that's why the phrase is said like that. I know I'm an interruption. I agree with you. You know, I'm an interruption. I don't have to tell you that, but I'm telling you, I know I'm an interruption. So not only have I broken the taboo, which gets everybody's attention, right? It's like blood, it gets everybody's attention. You can't open a cold call with blood and that one doesn't work. And you could, somebody answers the phone. You say: "Hey, Corey, you know, I've got a lot of blood right here. That's kind of pouring out of this side of my arm."
Chris Beall (02:54):
You'd probably go: "Oh my God, I might get your attention. But I think it might be a little difficult to the conversation." But if I say: "I know I'm an interruption and I break that taboo against being the problem." Then suddenly you've got to deal with the fact that I've done that. And this is by the way, how I was successful as a brush man in Phoenix. I would knock on the door and imagine your kid has never sold in his life. You're selling under pressure, real pressure. I've got to make money in order to deal with the financial consequences of a miscarriage said, miscarriage, by the way happened, just on the other side of this counter, in the middle of that kitchen, that's 10 feet away from me. It happened. And guess what it was: it was pool of blood on the floor.
Chris Beall (03:41):
So, I mean, imagine a pool of blood spreading across the floor, underneath my wife. So that's how, that's what I came to as this miscarriage is watching somebody in her, in her house, coat standing in a pool of blood. Right? So now I've got to deal with this and we're about to move the next day. We're going to move to Colorado. Well, now I can't move to Colorado. There was a hospital visit. There's...
Corey Frank (04:07):
And you're selling Fuller brushes?
Chris Beall (04:08):
And not, yet, I'm moving and now I need a job and I need a job in one day. And the only job I could find in one day was to be a Fuller-brush-man. And I met the Fuller-brush people at Denny's, the boss, you know, the district manager or whatever he was. And the training was almost non-existent. It's like: "here's the bag?
Chris Beall (04:31):
Here's the stuff. Here's what you do. Here's how you fill out the order, your territory dude go." Right? So I thought about it and I said: "Hey, this is what they said to do is knock on the door and then try to sell them something." And I thought that's impossible.
Chris Beall (04:44):
Why would somebody buy something from a stranger knocking on their door when it's 114 degrees out? That's just nutty. They have a perfect excuse to close the door, you're costing me a dollar, a minute of air conditioning. "Thank you very much goodbye."
Chris Beall (04:58):
So I thought, you know, typical of my approach to things as a physicist mathematician: is to break it down into the pieces and then ask which piece can I do? So the piece I realized I could do was this: I would knock on the door and I thought, what I need is information and permission to come back.
Chris Beall (05:15):
Those are the two things I need. I need to know who I'm dealing with. I need to have them tell me I can come back. So I can't sell them. So when I'm selling them, I'm selling them the opportunity to learn something about them, which I can do just by looking at them. Okay?
Chris Beall (05:29):
So I got to get a look at them and then I need to get permission to come back; so that's my sale. Can I come back? So the way I did it was this: I broke a taboo and knocked on the door. They would answer, I said: "Hi, I'm Chris Beall I'm your new Fuller-brush-man. You probably don't know what Fuller-brush is, I sure don’t." Huge taboo, Right? I'm ignorant of my own company. That's like a crazy thing to say. A hundred percent of the time people kept the door open. There wasn't one person who closed the door in my face. I don't even think my mother would've done. And she was an expert, she was like, God of closing the door.
Chris Beall (06:11):
So, then they would say, how can I help you? That's what everybody said: "How can I help you?". Because I had said that I was vulnerable because I didn't even know what my company was. And so they asked for the opportunity to help me. And I said: "Well, here's what would be really helpful for me. I've heard, and I don't know if this is true, that our company has some products that can't be bought in stores and that are unusually good around the house".
Chris Beall (06:41):
And what I would like to do is to go look at those products, which I haven't had a chance to look at, at all yet. And if I find one or two of these that I think would really make a difference in your life, do I have your permission to come back in and waste five minutes of your time showing them to every single person I talked to said, yes, there were no exceptions. So I had a door to close rate in my first week here, my territory of 100%. And now I had information. So it was a woman 30 to 40. Obviously had some kids. There's an oil stain on the driveway. Hey, they have a garage, it's Arizona and know that they have black widow spiders in there, and I know how to find them because I grew up here. Then I went off, you know, I took my notes on each one and went to the next door and, and did this and did this and did this.
Chris Beall (07:31):
And it took five days to do my whole territory. I was very efficient because I didn't have to waste any time selling them anything. It was just this one thing. It took less than two minutes. It was done. I'd watch, take my notes fast blocks with they do the next door, compose myself a little bit, and then knock on that door and just repeat the same thing. Now I got all this information and I went and found, I figured out there were seven demographics that were significant. And I found a person that I knew in each demographic. And I went through the catalog very quickly category by category and found two products for that demographic that that person told me that they would buy. One was very inexpensive and it was something you would only ever need one of in your life.
Chris Beall (08:12):
So you would buy it from me unless you hated me. And then the other one was something that was relatively expensive consumable, and that if you wanted it and you thought it was never coming back, you'd buy a lock. That was that two products. So 14 products. I sold that of the thousands in catalog. And then I just went back in the evening when people were a little more relaxed, it's not quite so hot, sun's just gone down. So it took me twice as long to go through the territory. And I shared those two products and I always made sure it was only five minutes and everybody except for 6%. So 94% bought something from me and other 72%, bought at least $30 of the thing that you wouldn't be able to get again. And some would buy a hundred dollars plus, and one in 10 would buy my electrostatic-force-sweeper. Cause my mom liked it.
Chris Beall (09:06):
And I became the number one Fuller-brush-man in Arizona history, I believe in two weeks. By doing something very simple, by breaking the taboo of ignorance of what you're selling by not posing as the product expert, but by being vulnerable. And then them offering me help and me doing a service for them, which is researching the products and then keeping my promise, which was five minutes.
Corey Frank (09:32):
So, but everything else that you read, it seems as about establishing star power, credibility, respect; that you know, your product. And I almost hear you saying Chris, that vulnerability supersedes that, it it's a, it's a super highway to trust because the reaction that your prospects had said to you after you showed vulnerability, you probably physically threw up your arm.
Corey Frank (10:05):
So I don't know anything about right. And so just the mythological statement of having [inaudible 00:10:12] being vulnerable led to them saying, well, how can I help you? You've given, you've opened up. You know, let me, let me see. I can, how I can help you. And is, or, or is it, is it a temporary condition? Is it a parallel condition? Does it, is it like the word blood where vulnerability shocks people into wanting to render assistance and, now you're in the trust circle. If you will? Where they're going to be listening a little bit more intently because they're not going to have their hand on their wallet or their hand on their holster because you've already kind of bypassed that, that emotion. That's what I hear you saying. But,...
Chris Beall (10:59):
And it's very powerful because it's universal. We're not pulling a trick on them. You're actually telling them the truth, that's what's especially interesting.
Chris Beall (11:07):
In the cold call, when you say, I know I'm an interruption, you're not saying, I know I'm interrupting you. I know I'm interrupting your day is not interesting. It's not about me. I want to tell you that I'm the problem. And then, cause you think I'm the problem. The circumstance is not the problem. We can't throw the circumstance under the bus, but we can throw me under the bus and that's it. There's subtlety in here. This is why this is so hard to teach and so hard to learn because taboos are very, very hard to break. And we drift away from breaking the taboo to the non-taboo version, which doesn't work at all. By the way, it has no effect. When I say, if I were to say know, I'm interrupting your day, I get nothing. If I say, I know I'm an interruption and I emphasize the word, no, then I get something. And what I get is you're listening to the person who just said he was an interruption. Why did he say what was an interruption?
Chris Beall (12:11):
I mean, I know I agree with you, right? But nobody ever, nobody ever admits that and it doesn't go. It doesn't go stale at some point you only have to use it once or only that person once.
Corey Frank (12:24):
Versus, "Hey, did I catch you at a good time to catch you at a bad time? Do you have five minutes to talk? Can you have 15 minutes? Maybe I can get in your calendar?" Too soon and no trust and no empathy.
Chris Beall (12:35):
Yes. And it's only four words: I know I'm an interruption. It's Five words after which you get to offer a solution to the problem after all, why would I tell you about a problem that I believe you have?
Chris Beall (12:50):
Which, happens to be me unless I'm going to offer a solution to the problem. So if I just called you up and said, I know I'm an interruption and just stopped after a while, you'd be thinking, yeah. "Okay. Like, what's next?" What if I say: "I know I'm an interruption." And then I changed my voice to playful and curious, and I offer a solution. So I'm going to change the mood here from an acknowledgment of flat, very flat acknowledgment of a fact, which is, I am the problem to a question which is basically: "might we play together for a little bit of time?"
Chris Beall (13:38):
Can you, will you come out and play? So now we're back to knocking on the door; "Hey, can Corey come out and play? Mrs. Frank, can Corey come out and play?" That's that voice, right? You wouldn't say: "Hey, Mrs. Frank, can Corey come out and play?", that would be ridiculous. Right?
Corey Frank (13:56):
Yeah.
Chris Beall (13:56):
You have to say it in playful curious. And it has to be that knows Okay. "No, sorry. Corey is doing his homework right now and he's a little bit behind in school. He's not the quickest kid in the entire place. And he has to do the extra work. Sorry. He can't come out and play"
Chris Beall (14:11):
Right? You have to let Mrs. Frank say whatever she's going to say. And that's who you're asking. Actually you're asking their parents if they can come out and play. So that is, it's interesting to them that the solution to the problem might be as simple as coming up and playing for 27 seconds and they don't have to do anything. They just have to listen.
Chris Beall (14:32):
So, when you asked the question, you're actually asking a funny question. You're not asking permission. People often say to me: "Oh, so then you ask for permission to talk."
Chris Beall (14:42):
That's not what you're asking at all. You're asking about a circumstance, which only they can know about. And you're doing it in a way that you're presenting a plan to solve, to solve the problem. So you're showing that you're competent to solve a problem they have right now, The problem is: you.
Chris Beall (15:02):
So you offer a solution to the problem in a classic way. That's been heard thousands of times, which is:" can you come out and play?" That is:"are you free for a moment? Can I have 27 seconds?" So at that point I've shown vulnerability. I know you want to help me at that point, by the way your inclination is to help me. So I'm going to give you a program where you can help me. Can I have? "You're going to give me something: 27 seconds."
Chris Beall (15:30):
That's funny, that's playful. For purpose to tell you why I called; can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?
Chris Beall (15:37):
And that voice, which has got a little up rollercoaster is not a standard question. It's not a question of the sort like where you would answer:"Yes I have a bag of coffee; no, the dog is sick."
Chris Beall (15:52):
It's none of that, it's a question of, are you willing to come out and play with me for 27 seconds in order to solve a problem that I know that you have, which is that I'm an interruption
Announcer 2 (16:12):
Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer or investor is one of the hardest jobs in business.
Announcer 2 (16:18):
So, when it's really time to go big, you need an uncommon methodology to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world through a modern, innovative sales and scripting tool set. We offer a guiding hand to ambitious leaders in their quest to reach market dominance. It's time to get uncommon with uncommonpro.com.
Announcer 1 (16:51):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys, sponsored by ConnectAndSell. Right here in the funnel radio channel for at-work listeners; like you!
Explaining the decision to employ the newly developed and yet far-from-perfect radar system used to protect England from the stifling Nazi blitz in World War II, the esteemed scientist Robert Alexander Watson-Watt said, “Always strive to give the military the third-best because the best is impossible and second best is always too late.” This attitude of being good enough, and not perfect, has been dubbed ‘the cult of the imperfect.’ The French philosopher Voltaire summed this attitude nearly two hundred years earlier when he wrote, “The best is the enemy of the good.”
Certainly, when creating a call campaign or lead list, trying for perfection in our initial query is also very much our enemy. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris explains why what you are doing when you create a list is already wrong! This is Market List Creation…Know your enemy!
----more----
ConnectAndSell – welcome to the end of dialing as you know it! Give your fingers a rest. With ConnectAndSell’s Patented Technology, you’ll load your Best Sales folks up with 8-10x More Live qualified Conversations every day… and when we say qualified, we’re talking about really Qualified… like knowing how many tears they shed while watching the end of Toy Story - kind of qualified. Visit ConnectandSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:57):
Explaining the decision to employ the newly developed and yet far from perfect radar system used to protect England from the stifling Nazi blitz in World War II, the esteemed scientist Robert Alexander Watt said, "Always strive to give the military the third-best because the best is impossible. And the second-best is always too late." This attitude of being good enough and not perfect has been dubbed the cult of the imperfect. The French philosopher, Voltaire, summed this attitude up nearly 200 years earlier when he wrote, "The best is the enemy of the good." And certainly when creating a call campaign or lead list, trying for perfection in our initial query is also very much our enemy. And in this episode, Chris explains why what you're doing when you create a list is already wrong. This is market list creation, know your enemy.
Your advice then if I may, we have a hypothetical software company that it's an HR persona software that helps me identify unhappy employees and it calls their social media and their credit score and their kid's college tuition and puts this all into an algorithm that spits out a score that says, "Even though Chris Beall is a good employee today, he has all these external pressures, positive or negative, that would make him an unhappy employee." Let's just say we have a product like that.
And I want to focus on certain people in a company. The traditional way is to say, "Hey, listen, this fits HR people in an organization." What I hear you saying is, "It's more or less of who has the most, where is a potential area of pain from an organization that is suffering from turnover that needs to stem that turnover or that the cost of acquisition is so high in getting an employee that you want to make sure that when they find an employee, they keep that employee." And so as I'm going through this thought process of creating this list for this fictitious HR software company, what are some of the steps I should think about when I create my list from how most people do it, to how it should be done? Because I have a product that fits every HR person in America and every organization that has employees should care about this product, because you don't want those employees to leave.
Chris Beall (03:43):
So the trick to all of this is actually pretty simple. It is first to recognize that it's a hypothesis. Your list is a hypothesis about the market. It's not the definition of a market. And as a hypothesis, it's worth about as much effort and time that it would take to come up with a hypothesis for, gosh, I wonder if this pork chop would taste better with more salt on it? Really, you don't want to sit around for four or five days thinking about this, arguing about it. So thing number one is, cut it with the internal meetings that are full of everybody's opinions. All you're going to do is reduce the darn thing to a list anyway. Until you're actually talking to folks you don't know very much, get a cycle time for building a list down to as fast as possible because the cycle time to discovering if the list is any good is about a week. Done right, it's about a week.
So don't spend five weeks talking about something that's going to take one week to determine if it made any sense, because I guarantee you you're wrong. So you missed, number one, admit you're wrong in advance, and then be bold in your hypothesis. Second, be very, very specific. So whatever your hypothesis is, don't hedge within the hypothesis. The goal isn't to see whether you can settle at a meeting. The goal is to see whether you'll learn something from having set those meetings. So be specific. Target a role, target an industry. If you're really in a frisky mood, target a geography for a funny reason, which is there are always differences in geographies that are not manifested in the data.
Corey Frank (05:19):
Really?
Chris Beall (05:20):
All of it, everything in the world has got local influences. It's like in every business there's seasonality, but until you've run it for two years, you don't know what the seasonality is.
Corey Frank (05:31):
So for instance, if we had this hypothetical HR software, obviously where there's a high amount of employees moving back and forth for attrition. I tested in the SFO Palo Alto area, and I may get a different result of the same product in Mission, Kansas, where there's only four big employers and people work at these organizations for 10, 15, 20 years. And so if I would validate it in Mission, Kansas versus SFO, I would potentially get some false positives if I never tested it outside of a particular geo.
Chris Beall (06:10):
Exactly, exactly. It's always good to be more specific, if there's enough volume to support the experiment. Unfortunately, these experiments don't take that much volume, the smaller this debt that you're going, if you think, okay, it's possible that the San Francisco Bay area is a market for us. That means it's self-referencing. And that's a great example you gave because that's a great example of companies that share a bond, a background that you wouldn't have elsewhere. They share the same venture capitalists, the same board members, and they're under very similar pressure. So I would go as specific as you're going to go to the SaaS companies in the Bay area that are funded, they have to be funded, maybe even going to the ones that are series B and beyond because they have this particular talent management problem, in my head. And I just go over to some combination of ZoomInfo and LinkedIn Sales Navigator.
And maybe if I'm really looking for funding information, CB insights, I make my list. How long does it take to make that list? 15 minutes, 20 minutes, not very hard. I put in some criteria, then I inspect the list. How do I inspect the list? Well, list-making always brings false positives in terms of titles, mapping personas to titles is very, very hard. Don't worry about it. Make the list with a broader set of keywords, because that's all you really have to work with or concepts and attributes. As you know, this used to be my business at one point in my life was the world of catalogs, all that kind of detail in them. Don't worry about it too much. Just make sure your list has false positives in it. Then pull the list into Excel, pivot the list on title, sort descending, that's from the biggest, the highest count to the lowest count, on the counts of the titles.
And there are two things you're looking for. One is you want the title with the biggest count to be a drop dead obvious, this is who I want in the list. And you want titles that have high counts that are obviously not possibilities. The classic case, I'm looking for CEOs and I got assistants to CEOs.
Corey Frank (08:15):
Yes.
Chris Beall (08:16):
Well, I pivot the list and now I've aggregated the assistant to CEO titles with a number next to them, there's 22 of these, 11 of these and sort. I just strike those as a chunk. And then I got my list. It's a very simple two-step process. And even with the big list, a list of say 5,000, it takes about another 15 to 20 minutes to go and pivot the list and say, "Oh, there's a title that I never want. And there's too many of them." If there's a title you never want, and there's not very many of them, below some level of count, just ignore it, go ahead and call them and talk to them. You might learn something. Now you've got a list. That's it.
Corey Frank (08:50):
That should take about a week to run through with the proper support mechanism, the proper technology. I should be able to use that week cycle to validate to vet out the success of that list. And we can talk about next time since we're up against the clock here, talk about what is the definition of success, whether this list should continue or whether we should pivot, change the selects and go with a different list. And then AB tested week to week before we quote unquote scale or get a larger list.
Chris Beall (09:23):
Exactly. Actually what we're going to pivot on is the message first. The message is more nimble than the list. And we always modify the design based on the cycle time of getting to a new design. So the new design is a new message, which is a new product remembering that our original problem was not to find the people, they're always out there.
The companies are always out there, but to find a product. It's a search process looking for a product, and we're going to look for the product that resonates in a list. Once we do that, we lock down on the list and we lock down the message, we expand it, and we immediately go to scale. I'm hearing you say, Chris, they're just so overly rigid in their messaging and what they perceive as their market, after maybe a cycle or two, either in seed round or early A round where they never come off of that and then they just throw boatloads of money at trying to fit the square peg in this round hole. And I think that's what we can talk a little bit about next time here, since we're up against the clock.
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You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys, sponsored by ConnectandSell, right here in the Funnel Radio Channel for at-work listeners, like you.
Startups that begin their journey without a primary mission and focus on getting to true market dominance causes many teams to instead lead their new company into conditions that are ripe with extreme uncertainty and essentially abandoning all process. They often jump head-on into the product development cycle in order to execute on their “idea” and get to “market” as quickly as possible…so they can start selling and bringing in revenue. Understandable for sure. But this is not the only option…nor is it even close to the ideal one. Eric Ries’ fantastic work, The Lean Startup, demonstrates that companies CAN create order and reduce chaos by providing tools and processes to test their vision not once, but continuously. That’s the key here…continuously. In this Market Dominance Guys episode, entitled “Messaging Eats Product for Breakfast” Chris and I also discuss when is sales really sales, and when a product pivot should really simply be a messaging pivot.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (01:00):
Startups that begin their journey without a primary mission or a focus on getting to true market dominance causes many teams to instead lead their new company into conditions that are ripe with extreme uncertainty. And essentially abandoning all processes. T.
They often jump head on into the product development cycle in order to execute on their idea and get to market as quickly as possible just so they can start selling and bringing in revenue. And it's certainly understandable, but this is not the only option nor is it even close to the ideal one.
Eric Ries' fantastic work, The Lean Startup, demonstrates that companies can create order and reduce chaos by providing tools and processes to test their vision, not once but continuously. And that's the key here, continuously.
In this episode entitled Messaging Each Product For Breakfast, Chris and I also discussed when is sales really sales? And when a product pivot should really be simply a messaging pivot.
We had left off last time with this concept of do something that looks like sales or do you actually do sales. Whereas the goal was to actually do something that looks like sales from our friend VenCat and his concept of trying to get to these pivot points as quickly as possible.
Chris Beall (02:25):
That's a very interesting point. I think it's funny that when you think about it, the looks like sales part actually is sales, but it has this subtlety, this subtle difference, which is that rather than it being an activity that is, I'll say, thrown to the sales department and we measure, "Did you sell something?" We do something that looks exactly like what we would do if the sales department were very mature and well run, which is they handle the top of their funnel with great discipline. That's what great sales departments do is that when you look at the top of their funnel, it looks very smooth. The flow is smooth. And instead of desperately lunging for the deal at the end of the month, the quarter, the whatever in order to quote unquote, make their number, their goaled the same way but the flow is so smooth that they actually make things happen all along the way.
And I mean, that's I think the greatest distinction between a well-run sales organization and sort an average sales organization is a well-run sales organization, even if the deals will tend to close toward the end of the period because that's how their buyers are trained to behave and it's just easier to do that way, their top of the funnel on there and as a result, their pipeline, they call it strong, but it's really smooth. It's just, it flows.
There are opportunities that flow in, they have consistent false positive rates. If you were to investigate them carefully, they'd have very low false negative rates, that is they'd be catching most of the opportunities out there before their competitors do. That's the essence. And what we're really talking about here is market dominance and therefore we're talking about competition.
So, the key isn't just to survive and thrive in the venture capitalist eyes, it's to actually win the market. So, even if you weren't funded at all by external funding, core dynamic is you want to be there before your competition is there.
I think what really happens done right is you build the top of the sales organization, that is the top of the funnel, exactly like you would have it at maturity and you simply do it faster and you run it faster. Down funnel, your activities are very similar but they're subtly different. So, discovery actually a great discovery is real discovery. That is it's not a drive to a deal. Because once the top of your funnel is in good shape and is flowing well, you can afford to do true discovery. That you can afford to have a conversation with somebody in which you discover whether your idea of your offering and their current concept of their problem as it evolves in the conversation that you have together, turns out to be a fit sufficiently to take the next step.
That's all discovery is, is that we're trying to find out, do we have enough reason here from this conversation which might take 15 minutes or 30 minutes or something like that to say, "Let's explore further. Let's go from discovery to intention to solve. To explore a solution to one of the pain point or opportunities that's been discovered."
So, discovery is really the key to this whole thing because what you discover is product market fit. Market because you're talking to enough people. So, it's not product customer fit. The problem with the standard model of, "Let's just go sell." Is you never find a product market fit because you're so busy working on product customer fit.
It feels so good, "Can I get this person to buy something?" And when you go down that path, you morph your message in real time by adapting the message to the customer in order to try to make the sale. And this is the standard problem that shows up in all sales organizations. It's fatal actually, or at least it'll wound you badly when done early in the go-to-market process, is instead of saying, "Hey, here's my offering," in the form of a message, "now I'm going to go through discovery to discover whether anything in my offering resonates with your problem. And then we're also going to explore timing." Instead of doing that, we say to the sales person, "Hey, go get a deal."
So, the offering morphs in the process of the deal to whatever the salesperson and the customer decided should be to take the next step. So, now every conversation takes the offering in a new direction.
Corey Frank (06:44):
Yeah. And the product team is frustrated, "Why don't you just sell what's on the menu for God sakes."
Chris Beall (06:49):
Yeah, exactly. And so now you go all the way back to, and they've invested in the product, the product team has and therefore their confidence in the product. And so you have this drift occurring over here on the sales side, you have this rigidity because you already over-invested in the real product which you can't move very easily because it's built, and those two create this fault line and the Grand Canyon actually that you mentioned shows up in that fault line.
Corey Frank (07:15):
So, the Henry Ford axiom that if I listen, actually listen to what my customers wanted, they'd still be riding on horses.
Chris Beall (07:23):
They'd want a faster horse.
Corey Frank (07:24):
This concept where you can over-invest in the product at a greater pace than you're getting, gaining, culling, harvesting, this market data is the key. So you want to have the product ahead of the market or you want to have the data coming in just where there's a low enough, where the product can continue to be nimble and adjust accordingly.
Chris Beall (07:49):
Yes. Yeah. So, the less built the product is the more valuable feedback from discovery is in terms of informing product evolution. Product is free to evolve when it has less to it.
Corey Frank (08:00):
Product is free to evolve when it has less to it. So, less is more.
Chris Beall (08:05):
Yeah, and it's vastly cheaper to build a message than a product. I personally do messaging work for lots of our customers. The good messaging exercise at the top of the funnel takes about 15 minutes. That's a solid messaging exercise that will turn into results in the form of appointment setting rates within 24 hours.
So, you've got a 24 hour cycle from building a virtual product in the form of a message and getting starting to get the feedback back in the form of appointments that are set. And you have, even in the most agile of development communities, even when the product is pure software, Cloud based, agile is can be, scrumming like crazy, all that good stuff, you're very, very lucky to do meaningful four week sprints with releases.
The difference between four weeks and a day, it's a factor of 20, approximately 18, right? You're 16 times as nimble as the most agile development team if you simply avoid developing things that you don't know you should develop.
Corey Frank (09:07):
Let's talk about that as an example. So, without maybe just broad, broad messaging, obviously not necessarily company names here, but what is an example of where you would go in and you would talk about messaging that they think is static. They think is valid. They think is mature enough and, "Thank you very much, Chris, I just want this tool. Thank you." And then after a while, they'll come back and say, "Hey, the tool, wasm#t what we thought, Chris, thank you very much," and you're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on a minute. Let's talk about your messaging before you just get this faster horse here." Right? And what are some of those examples where folks may think that they are selling the drill versus selling the hole?
Chris Beall (09:55):
Yeah, I wish they were mere examples. I mean, it's the standard. And for a couple of reasons. One is that messaging at the top of the funnel generally is inherited from marketing. Somebody uses some marketing language and says, "Let's say that we are the number one provider of something. Let's say that we have a platform that does X, Y, and Z. Let's say that, our service provides you with and category one, two, and three of wonderful things that it does." So, all those are marketing oriented messages.
In fact, they're the very kinds of messages that inform a [depth 00:10:34] that you've built to influence venture capitalist to perhaps invest in you.
So, in the world of marketing and the world of investment we talk about categories. Always. Because if we're not in a category, we don't know what we're doing. We can't message a market without a category. It doesn't mean anything. It's like to the market we say, "We do this wonderful thing, using words you've never heard before." That doesn't work, right? So, you can't do that in a market because markets are one to many.
Interestingly investors are one to many also because investors look like consumers or companies in the marketplace and that they have to all be investing what each other are investigating, category-wise. Nobody wants to be fool enough to invest in something that no one else is investing in. And that means investing in a category whose name is understood, the idea is understood.
It's really funny, people use disruption all the time as something that, "You're going to invest in my disruptive product." What they really mean is, "I have a variant of something that's hot and that you guys are investing it." Right?
And you can tell, because they'll say, "Well, we're the Uber of something," and then when Uber became unpopular because of their shenanigans, "We're the, whatever," you know, "We're the Snapchat of account-based marketing." And so what does that mean? Well, it's rational to say that to investors. And it's rational to say something a little bit like that to customers in the marketplace when you're using advertising and you're using social media. The problem is when you're trying to assess whether a specific thing that you're thinking of building might solve a specific problem, you have to stay away from the category for two reasons.
One is the category is not the solution to their specific problem. The category is a bag in which a whole bunch of different things that might solve that problem or problems like that are placed. So, you're not really helping them think about it.
Secondly, psychologically, when you say to somebody in a cold call, especially you say something that indicates your product category at all, "I'm calling you because we know we help companies like yours solve the problem of keeping track of their IOT investment." Whatever that is or something like that. It's like well if they're competent, they're already doing it. You're actually asking them, you're saying this, "We provide something that you should have already bought, unless you're an idiot. Unless you're an incompetent fool who's paying no attention to the market. We provide ... Oh, wait, it's already out there. We provide another one."
Corey Frank (13:16):
That messaging that you just say, right, as fictitious as it is, I mean, that is so common to all the different varied sales pitches that you and I receive every day, either in a LinkedIn reach out or in a cold call or in a mass email, it is structured exactly like that.
Chris Beall (13:34):
Right. And so you get one of two answers. Neither one is good. One is, I don't care. That is, that's not a concern of mine right now. Thank you for letting me dismiss you in a relevant sense in a couple of seconds, which is what I was trying to do anyway. But if you're pitching me, my job is to make you go away.
Corey Frank (13:52):
Yes.
Chris Beall (13:52):
I'm not inviting you into my house to sit down. You know, here got another mug, got a pot of coffee, sit down. And Mr. And Mrs. Salesperson and regale me with your wondrous insights, right? That's not what I'm looking to do. I'm looking to make you go away. So, you've given me the perfect way to make you go away as soon as you tell me the category, because I get to say the following either, "Don't need that kind of thing right now," and I get to preserve myself image, "Thank you very much. You have to go away."
And then the other one is, "Oh, you've hit a little too close to home. You've actually talked about a category that's important to me, but you've insulted me by implying that I haven't even bothered to look into this area. So, you're telling me it's really important and I've been incompetent and inattentive and haven't paid any attention to it at all."
Now that doesn't work. So, I just say, "Oh, thanks. That's really nice. I'm glad you're in that business. You know, we're set, we're set." And then neither one of those, consider them as objections, is handle-able. They're fundamentally on handle-able objections. One of them you say, "Hey, this isn't something that's important to us right now." And how do you [crosstalk 00:15:02] argument with somebody, "You know, you're just wrong. You don't know what's important to you. Let me tell you what's important to you. I have insights about you and your problem you have no idea about because I'm a sales person. In fact, I'm a top of funnel, 24 year old sales person. And [crosstalk 00:15:20] you the person with enough money to buy, authority to buy what I sell. And I'm going to give you insights about your business that you just didn't know. I mean, you're just so clueless, dude."
And then on the other one, they say, "I'm set." It's like, what can you do with that? "No, you're not, no, you're not. We're so much better,"
"No, really. I just bought one of those last week."
Corey Frank (15:43):
Isn't saving money important to you? Isn't saving time important to you, right? And then I already lost the pride argument here. Now I'm just wrestling with the slippery pig, but that's the point that most people don't.
Chris Beall (15:53):
You need a message that's in a package that allows you to get all the way through a conversation and intrigue somebody enough to have a meeting or to maybe take a meeting, maybe take an appointment. So, to do that, you have, you've got to put some pieces in the message. So, recalling that, as you pointed out in your intro summary here today, the product is the message at this point, you're selling the message. The close is the beating. They take the meeting. The actual delivery is they come to the meeting. That's delivery. They come to the meeting and you hold the meeting and then you have a full product cycle that you've got an idea of what you want to want to do, you've sold it, you actually have transacted. They came to the meeting and now something will happen next. Whatever's going to happen next will happen next, right?
Corey Frank (16:45):
[crosstalk 00:16:45].
Chris Beall (16:45):
So, we're trying to find out very, very early on, as early as we can, does our product, which is the message actually have validity or legs in the marketplace? Which is my list. So, it's so important to start with a list that the company creates and the company manages because that's the market. Allowing the sales person to make up the list is basically saying, "We have no idea what our market is and what we're really looking for is some faux examples of success so we can take them back and fool ourselves. We want to feel like we're making progress."
You're not making progress if you're going in every direction, you have to be going in one direction. You can't go in every direction at once. That's a bad idea, right? I can't say, "Hey, Corey," say to me, "Well, what'd you do on the 4th of July?" Say, "Well, you know what I decided to do was to go on a little vacation. So, I sent part of me to Seattle and part of me to Phoenix and I went a little, a little chunk I sent over to Columbus, Ohio, because I have some friends there and you know I've always wanted to see Alaska. So, I sent some parts and all those different directions."
"Oh, really? How'd you decide that?"
"Well, I let foot decided where it wanted to go and you know my left hand [crosstalk 00:17:52] had interest in Phoenix ... "
And it's just ridiculous to do that and yet it is common practice. Let the sales person make the list, use a category oriented message and then let the salesperson make up any words that they want to package that [crosstalk 00:18:06].
Corey Frank (18:06):
I had a conversation over the 4th of July with a girlfriend of my brother who just started at a SAS software company selling HR solutions. And she's been there for about six weeks and so of course I say, "Hey, how's it going so far?"
"Well, it's going all right."
"Well, tell me about a typical day, how you start your day and what's your list like, what's your market?"
So long story short, what they believe in is for the first 90 to 120 days is that the sales rep self generates their own leads via LinkedIn, via business journals etc. Find out who's in the news. And so they have a software product that's been around for a few years and their goal is to not support the sales rep by feeding them the list but instead to say, "This is what our product is, this is what it does. Now you go out and you find folks that you think will fit into this type of model."
So, of course there's an incredible amount of frustration. And I would imagine downstream, especially if there's no sales happening, there's an incredible amount of desperation that shows up in the tone. And there is this confrontational nature then because, "I really, as a 24 year old sales person, don't know what I'm doing. I have all this marketing collateral. I have a website that I really don't necessarily quite understand and I'm trying to get to the sale. So, it's going to come through in my tone that, 'What do you mean you don't want X and Y and Z? Because I'm seeing for my website in my collateral that people like you should want X and Y and Z'."
And so the tonality is wrong even if the messaging is kind of right because it's starting from again, I think the back end of the cow here. That kind of yields this, that goes back to the front of the cow where this frustration comes in. Then I realized that the sales manager of this HR software company is probably going to say, "Well, I just need better sales reps at this point. And that's the problem. It was not necessarily my message because I have a mature website and I have a mature messaging and I have sold a couple of widgets before. So, I think I know what I'm doing. I just need to grow at scale.
And so it seems to become a challenge.
Chris Beall (20:19):
It's very interesting that the most common response to executing a process that is guaranteed not to find product market fit is to scale the sales organization.
Corey Frank (20:33):
That's correct.
Chris Beall (20:33):
I mean, it's really interesting when you think about it. It's like saying, "Well, so I have this hose. I'm trying to put out a fire with this hose but the hose sprays the water in every direction so it doesn't seem to do anything to the fire. So, I think I need more hoses just like this one. And I'll point them in every direction and maybe the fire would go out."
Well, for little wimpy fires that could work but dominating a market is not a little wimpy fire to put out. If you just change the hose so the hose directs a high pressure stream at one place, you can choose the part of the fire that you can put out. And from there, cools down a little bit, people would think of this as the opposite analogy, right? It's like, how can going to dominate a market look like putting out a fire.
Well, remember, you have competition. The market is always on fire. You're trying to cool some of it down enough to let you go in. You're new and you need to direct it at one spot. And one spot means it's something about the market that if you get some you're more likely to get more. This is where going all the way back to Geoffrey Moore and Crossing the Chasm is so key.
Markets are self-referencing. The most important thing about a market is that it's self referencing. A correctly defined market is always a list. It's never an idea. It's never a description. It's always a list. So, here you have this problem, "I've got a list and I've got to make that list self referencing with regard to something that I sell, my product. So, if I don't at least make the list, to direct all the effort at the list, I have no chance whatsoever of ever getting self-referencing going on."
And there are exceptions and the exceptions are in the ... This is not about consumers. This is all about B2B. In the B2C world you can actually have products take off almost accidentally. It happens on occasion because the product is so popular for whatever reason something's going on in the world, right? Every once in a while in B2B, like in once in 20 years, something will take off just like that. Often a B2C crossover, like the iPhone. The iPhone became a dominant player in B2B even though the iPhone deliberately tells you in every way, don't use me for business. When you go and put a contact on the iPhone, it says their default phone number is their home phone. Home phone. You don't even have home phones anymore. Even Apple should have known about mobile phones. They were selling you one. But it [crosstalk 00:22:59] difference because utility was so high in the B2C space that the product jumped into the B2B space, like a fire jumping from your neighbor's house. And that's what happened.
But when you're inventing a product or coming out with an innovation in B2B and say, it's not even a product site, it's a service, you've got to get the thought rough reference-ability within a market. That means go small, because it's easier to put out a little fire, a little part of a big fire than a big part of a big fire. Start with the premise, the market is always on fire because your competitors are out there. You've got a problem. There's no safe way to go. You need to cool down part of that market enough for you to safely go into it. And then once you get in there, you're closer, so you can aim your high pressure, very directed, super, your hose with a little bit more water. So, you're not trying to see how much you can get on the flames. You're actually trying to see how concentrated you can get.
And you've got to make sure it's all water. The message is water. If you pour the, if you point that hose at the fire and the fire gets bigger, you got the wrong message. Your product is not acceptable in the marketplace. It doesn't cool the market down enough for you to enter. So, the context that I think folks tend to be missing in this entire discussion is competition. There's a strange assumption that is it works like this, if I'm coming up with something new, I have no competition.
That's ridiculous when you think about it, if you're coming up with something new, you have infinite competition. Your competition set is everything out there that anybody could conceivably use today to solve the problem that you would like to solve. And by the way, the problem is always being solved today because those companies you want to sell to are not all out of business. Your problem's important and it's not currently being solved in some way, then everybody would be out of business. So, your problem is always currently being solved. Always have a competition problem.
Now, the question is, can you cut your way in, or in this analogy cool your way down? I get it that this analogy is weird. It's not going to fit people's mental framework, but it's the true analogy as far as I'm concerned for what go to market is like. Go to market is not an attempt to start a fire, it's an attempt to put one out in a small enough area that you can go there. That it's safe for you to go. Because it's unsafe to go into highly competitive markets with a brand new anything.
Giving it to your salespeople, you're doomed because they're going to make up their own message. They're going to make up their own list. And now I've got, I'm pouring gasoline, I'm spraying gasoline on the fire instead of directing a high pressure stream of water at a part of the fire that's most likely to be put out. That's it.
Announcer (26:30):
You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys sponsored by ConnectAndSell right here in the Funnel Radio Channel for at-work listeners. Like you.
I know many veteran entrepreneurs would agree that “Raising venture capital is the easiest thing that a startup founder is probably ever going to do.”
Marc Andreessen said that the venture capital business is a 100% game of outliers- it’s all about extreme exceptions.”
“…think about it…there are on the order of 4-5000 ‘fundable’ companies a year, that want to raise venture capital.”
“…and about 300 of those will get funded by what’s considered a ’top tier VC’; about 25 of those will someday get to a 100M in revenue…”
“…and those 25 from that year, will generate something on the order of 97% of all the returns for the entire category of VC in that year.”
In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Corey asked Chris to tackle the mindset around this Venture Capital seduction process and break it down with eyes fully open to its true purpose and function. Who should you have on your team to really give you the brutally honest feedback you need…before the VC enters the picture? And most importantly, how can you ensure that your VCs goals and YOUR goals are properly in alignment?
This is the Market Dominance Guys: “The Hard Truths about Taking VC Funding”
----more----
ConnectAndSell – With ConnectAndSell’s Patented Technology, you’ll load your Best Sales folks up with 8-10x More Live qualified Conversations every day….and when we say qualified, we’re talking about really Qualified…like knowing how many tears they shed while watching the end of Toy Story - kind of qualified. Visit ConnectandSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (01:03):
I know many veteran entrepreneurs would agree that raising venture capital is the easiest thing that a startup founder is probably ever going to do. Marc Andreessen said that the venture capital business is a 100% game of outliers. It's all about extreme exceptions. Think about it. There are on the order of 4 to 5,000 fundable companies a year that all want to raise venture capital. And about 300 of those will get funded by what's considered a top tier VC. And about 25 of those will someday get to $100,000,000 plus level in revenue.
Corey Frank (01:45):
And of those, 25 from that year will generate something on the order of 97% of all the returns for the entire category of venture capital in that year. So in this episode, I asked Chris to tackle the mindset around this venture capital seduction process, and break it down with eyes fully wide open to its true purpose and function. Who should you have on your team to really give you the brutally honest feedback that you need before the VC enters the picture? And most importantly, how can you ensure that your VCs goals and your goals are properly in alignment? This is the hard truths about taking VC funding.
Corey Frank (02:34):
I just find that [inaudible 00:02:35] entrepreneurs, especially if they go into a traditional VC, they're not getting that to be true to the process. Maybe a list of ventures with their book seems to have that template on the process. And I think a lot of VCs and financial institutions are following that model from that PE firm. But the vast majority, they're not clinging or adhering to maybe financial process controls. But nothing outside the realm of doing what you're talking about, which is validating, vetting the customer persona profile, finding the three pieces of information, trying to get it done in quick cycles, not 500 days, not 50 days, but trying to get it done in a couple of weeks, to then rinse, lather, repeat. So where is that disconnect where they're unaware that that is helpful? It seems contrarian to how a traditional VC operates giving guidance to an entrepreneur today.
Chris Beall (03:37):
It's actually competitive without a traditional VC operates, which is why you don't see VC encouraging them. Because the VC is actually interested in putting money to work, and then maybe having a win and having high salvage value on the losses. So the three things you've got to do as a VC is you've got to fund with too much money. You have to put the money to work. So that means you want to invest in companies that need more money later. You certainly don't want to invest in the ones that don't need more money, right? Because you have this other problem. If you were running a venture firm that had a very small fund or sort of an on demand fund with limiteds that were quite happy to have their money not invested, unless it's going to be a win, then you might run a process that emphasizes early on making sure that we have a product before we build the product.
Chris Beall (04:28):
I mean, a VC that focused on that would actually just have to restructure their portfolio to say, we're always going to win, but we're never going to own as much because we don't get to put as much money to work, but we'll be happy doing that. We'll end up owning 8.7% instead of 87%, but we're going to win a hundred percent of the time. And we're still going to have the same unicorn ratios, so to speak. We'll still have the same big home run ratios, but instead of salvage value, we're going to eliminate salvage entirely and always build companies that work. It's actually impossible to build a company that doesn't work. If you go through the initial process of making sure that somebody wants your product and will buy enough to cover the cost of developing the darn thing and taking it to market, that's a working company a hundred percent of the time.
Chris Beall (05:19):
It may not be huge already, but you can actually repeat the process over and over. You can say, Hey, wait. Now we're in this market with this product. Let's find out if this product described a little bit differently with this message, can go into this adjacent market. Now, instead of one big monster market, I can go take market after market, after market. That's why the series that I've been doing on LinkedIn is called Market Dominance. It's not dominance of imaginary [inaudible 00:05:46], it's dominance of actual markets reduced to lists. When you reduce the market to a list, you have a shot at understanding what it would take to solve a problem for enough folks in that list, for enough money, that it covers your cost of building the product in the market, the cost of going to market, and the cost of supporting the product.
Chris Beall (06:07):
And you can do that a hundred percent of the time because here's what's funny about this whole situation. What comes out of discovery is completely reliable. In a discovery meeting, if you run a discovery meeting with the correct fidelity, it's like a super MRI machine. It's like a CAT scan from heaven. It tells you who needs what. And if you choose to be so bold as to ask what they will pay for them. And you can even discover through implementations. Now you can't discover this and discover it. Through your first five implementations, you can even figure out what does it take to make it work in the real world. Can you do five implementations before you take them on it? Probably. After all, VCs don't fund the Build a Products anymore. They expect you to build the product in the garage because they're so easy. So now really what is the VC funding? They're funding to go to market of a product that they don't know if it has a fit in the market. And that's the VC's risk profile, which is where all the problems come from.
Chris Beall (07:10):
The root cause of all of this is building products that don't have a place, a known place in the market to solve a known problem for a known person is within a company, so it solves the further problem, who knows how to buy it. You know, it's the unknown. You started this out, you asked the great question, which is what are the unknown unknowns? [inaudible 00:07:32] unknowns are. Does anybody need what it is that we're thinking about building? What would they pay for it? What would it take to implement it in the field? What other element of the ecosystem must be brought to healed? That is, do you have service providers? Do you have integrations that have to be done? Is there training that's needed? Our product is a great example. We need to train people on how to hold great coal costs because what's the point of having 10 times as many conversations, if you suck?
Chris Beall (08:02):
So our product naturally in its natural way, if you just unleash it like a coyote into the wild, it doesn't behave like a domestic dog. It behaves like a damn coyote. You have to train the thing to sit, lie down, and roll over. Don't pee on the carpet, quit killing the cat. Would ya? Our product is very dangerous in that sense, because it's so fast. It has to be tamed. So we had to learn through the implementation process, because you can't learn this through discovery. You learn it through implementation.
Chris Beall (08:35):
What needs to be done to have the problem actually get solved without blaming the customer for their failure to do their part? That is the step after discovery and that's the hard work. And that's the one thing you might need funding for. Because implementations, unless you can figure out how to charge enough for these things, for the whole thing, you could end up underwater. Now, I believe that there are ways to avoid that if your product is tight enough and small enough, and then you can wrap it up in some services. There's a safe way to use services as an adjunct to a product without becoming a services company. And there's rules that are easy to follow, like don't charge for the services, or if you do charge for the services, make sure that there's no goal associated with the services number. So don't give somebody that number, that tail will wag the dog every time.
Corey Frank (09:30):
And that's a common pratfall as it is, because you see companies and the software, especially in our space, they have a great software and the tech or market stack. They love it. People enjoy it. It's a klugey install. And then some CFO or VP of sales has the bright idea to say, wait a minute, if it's complicated, that means we can charge for it. And if we can charge for it, I can have a whole team of professional sales, engineers, poster, pre-sales engineers, et cetera.
Corey Frank (10:03):
And I could create a high margin product line, and in essence, you keep following that process, that flywheel and it leads to more frustration from the customer, more fear from the customer side that we fall this false flag of the Accenture model where the implementation is never done. In the new world, you're saying that just the opposite should be true, because we want intuitive, simple products that fit three needs, one of them emotional, ideally, and we want them up and going. And that's how you get to market dominance, is more people using a product, not fewer people using the product. But you're charging more for it with not just the software, but the professional services element as well.
Chris Beall (10:48):
Exactly. If it turns out that something needs to happen to make the product succeed and actually solve a problem, that work needs to be done it's fine to coordinate that work. It's fine to do that work. It's even okay to charge for that work. But if you ever give somebody that number, they'll sell that work and they'll sell every other kind of work that's close to it. The problem with services is service offerings have no natural boundary. Product offerings have a natural boundary. The product only does so much. I can only use this coffee cup for so many things. I can't actually ask it to drive me to the airport. It doesn't work. I could ask a person holding this coffee cup to drive me to the airport as a service. Okay?
Chris Beall (11:34):
So say that person's original job was to fill the coffee cup and bring it to me and make sure that it had the right coffee in it, but they're charging me for bringing me the coffee. And I could say, by the way, I'd like a ride to the airport. What's that going to cost? And they're going well, I get my commission based on how much services I charge. There's a services revenue I bring in. Yeah, I'll give you a ride to the airport. And then they say, wow, that's great customer service. But where's the boundary? I went from serving coffee to driving people to the airport. And that's what happened. That is the tail that wags the dog. And the problem is those services are an essential part of filling out the rest of the product. You can't build every feature. You can't make every integration happen.
Chris Beall (12:17):
So take integration services, a very, very common problem. In the software world, my software must always work with other software. I can build out every possible integration in advance. My problem is I don't know whether my first customer is going to have exactly that version of that thing, whatever that is, their CRM or their accounting system or whatever. I don't know what that's going to be like. And even worse, I don't know how it's configured. So I may think I've done an integration with Salesforce, but have I really done an integration with Salesforce that takes into account the fact that they use contacts for leads and that they customize the contact object? So some of its lead characteristics have to do with these additional fields, some of which were interpreted three years ago, one way, and then we changed the interpretation and they mean something else now. That by the way is the standard. That is the standard for all CRM. It's the standard for all enterprise systems. They're full of these overloads of fields that have values that used to be one way, but now are another way, where you have to interpret it.
Chris Beall (13:18):
Well actually, if it starts with an A, what that means is all of this stuff is in there. You can't integrate to a piece of technology in advance, and know that the implementation of that integration out of the box is going to help solve the problem that you are trying to solve. Services will be required. The question is, do you charge for them? If you charge for integration services, which by the way, have no independent value. So one of the rules for services is if you charge for stuff that has no independent value independent of your product, you have a real, real problem. Your problem is that, that piece of the business will run away with the business. And yet it has little appeal, so you'll undercharge. And now you'll end up with negative margins on your services.
Chris Beall (14:05):
So this happens all the time, right? So you've got to be very, very careful. Services are required. Think of it as ongoing product development costs that is not capitalized, it's expensed. Keep track of it very, very carefully and make sure it's enough to make the product work, that the feedback that comes back from the services is what tells you what to build next. So the first iteration of that product is three features that are going to solve real world problems that somebody has a field for. The second set of features are the ones that come back from the gaps that show up in services. We keep doing the same thing over and over. Let's product test that. Some of them are full, some of them are platforming. They're like, we have one in our product. We call it integration architecture.
Chris Beall (14:51):
We do our integrations out of a pre-wired integration to Salesforce, to Microsoft Dynamics, to whatever. And then we just have to do non-coding work. So taking coding, where it can turn into non-coding work by building a platform with configuration switches in it, is a way to make your product more robust without solving a new problem. You're not solving a new problem, you're solving the problem of fitting into the world that your customer lives in, and doing it without ever increasing services revenue that somebody owns. And they go, Hey, I'm going to go sell more of them integrations. You also avoid the conflict because services revenue often is charged by time, by the hour. So you have an inherent problem, which is the person who owns the services revenue number wants things to take a long time, and you need short cycles to actual usage of the product and delivery of results.
Chris Beall (15:48):
So the longer the services, the longer the cycle time between the sale and actual realization of value. And that's where the fundamental risk of the businesses is that cycle time. So you increase the fundamental risk of the business in order to make some revenue that has no value for you in the long run. It's a huge mistake. I think if we were to reduce it to a recipe, the recipe is this. We need to take our [inaudible 00:16:15] close deals because you need implementations because that's the next part of the feedback.
Chris Beall (16:18):
Corey, I tell you, I believe we're onto something here. And you know what the next natural thing for someone to do is, and this'll be on the recording so it's okay. Someone who wants to run a different kind of investment operation, who simply says, look, if you have an idea, bring your idea. And instead of having the Vista style book, which is very, very late, have the early book that says, the name of the fund is it's the Hundred Percent Fund. A hundred percent of all the companies that we launch. It's not one of those incubator blah-blah-blahs. Actually, it's a process machine in which the entrepreneur and their passion is inserted. And five weeks, six weeks later, a product pops out, and that product goes and dominates its first market. Within three years, it'll be complete dominance, but its assurance of dominance happens within six to nine months. But it's a runaway math problem at that point or best solution.
Corey Frank (17:22):
That's right. I think you're onto something on that as well. It's certainly needed today, as you said, that there's ubiquity of products, but there is a scarcity of solid go to market advice. I have a plethora of MarTech, ad tech, sales tech tools in my stack that I can amplify the suck.
Chris Beall (17:45):
Yes.
Corey Frank (17:45):
Right, as you say. But if I don't have the clean closed-loop strategy feedback loop to expedite my five pivots, that invariably I'm going to hit. Pay me now or pay me later. I'd rather do that, and front load those versus backload those which is going to cost me time. It's going to cost me people. It's going to cost me ownership, and it's going to cost me potential market dominance issues, et cetera.
Chris Beall (18:11):
And marriages.
Corey Frank (18:12):
And marriages. That's right.
Chris Beall (18:16):
[inaudible 00:18:16] friendships settled. I mean, really when you come right down to it, time doesn't kill all deals, time kills all companies. And it kills the relationships. It kills the human side. Frankly, it's just too hard to go climb these mountains if it takes too long, and people's relationships fray when they're asked to be in the lifeboat with somebody for two or three years before they figure out if there's a destination. So I think really you come right down to it, the big issue is the human cost. We're sending people to war, and we're sending them to war unarmed and unprovisioned. and the brave ones get through, and then we say, well, look at that. Well, it was one in 10. But you know the one in 10 that make it as unicorns go in and examine the human relationships, examine the history of the human relationships in those companies.
Chris Beall (19:10):
And then ask yourself a simple question. If this had happened in one fifth of the time, would these people still be friends? Would they still have intact marriages? Would their kids still know who they are. And that's really what's going on here, is the innovation economy is a beast and it chews up human beings in a way that is not good. It's not good. It's absolutely necessary. It's the current war. If we don't fight the war for innovation, we have issues, really big issues. So, somebody's got to go out there and do that, that hard work, but we don't have to do it in a way that destroys people's lives. This is my entrepreneurial passion. This is why I'm doing connect themselves. Helping investors make money, that's not that interesting to me.
Chris Beall (20:03):
I've been in the startup world since 1984. That's a long time. I've done sincere startups, one after another. They take too long. They hurt too many people. Yeah, they sound glorious and all, but if you really go in and you really dig in and say, realistically, what happens? What happens is human beings get chewed up in a machine made out of ignorance. They attempt to solve the ignorance through the application of money, and the money poisons the relationships, and it actually poisons the companies themselves. So this is a way of getting the innovation economy to work in a fundamentally different way, by dispelling the ignorance and reducing the amount of time you need to spend in the lifeboat together, and making it much more like something that we know how to do. We should know how to do innovation. And the bottleneck of innovation is go to market, not invention. This was beyond delightful and exceeded expectations. And my expectations were pretty darn high.
Corey Frank (21:04):
Oh no. It's you have so much rattling in that brain of yours. Right. If I could do a matrix and just plug it in, and fly a helicopter out of what's in your head, learn Kung Fu or whatever it is that's in Beall's brain. That's great. Forget inside John Malcovich.
Chris Beall (21:21):
I love it. I'm now fascinated by an idea that I hadn't really thought of before that you and I might be able to work on, which is you might know some people who are open-minded enough to make a new kind of investment thought.
Corey Frank (21:36):
Oh, my buddy Ori Isen. We did 41st parameter. He's on [inaudible 00:21:42] right now. So he's good buddies with Morton Meyerson who is a very keen, savvy investor with this type of humanistic approach. Absolutely. I think that's something that we should talk about it. Beyond incubator and it's beyond VC, it's something from the heart.
Announcer 1 (22:47):
You've been listening to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys radio show, sponsored by Connective Cell on the Funnel Radio Channel.
In our journey to Market Dominance, Hope springs eternal…it does in sales forecasts…in product rollouts…and especially in venture fundraising.
“But Hope is not a strategy. And Luck is not a factor. And fear is not an option.”
In this episode, I ask Chris about the key features and strategies every startup must-have. I brought extra paper expecting a long list…but to Chris, things are simplified…there are only three.
So arm yourself! Tune in to this episode of Market Dominance Guys to hear Corey and Chris and let’s now dive into the 3 Features & 3 Strategies Every Startup Must Have.
----more----
ConnectAndSell – With ConnectAndSell’s Patented Technology, you’ll load your Best Sales folks up with 8-10x More Live qualified Conversations every single day….and when we say qualified, we’re talking about really Qualified, like knowing how many tears were shed while watching Titanic kind of qualified. Visit ConnectAndSell.com
Uncommon Pro - Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.
The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Corey Frank (00:58):
In a journey to market dominance, hope springs eternal. It does in sales forecast and product roll-outs and especially in venture fundraising, but hope is not a strategy and luck is not a factor and fear is not an option. In this episode, I asked Chris about the key features and strategies. Every startup must have. I brought extra paper expecting a long list, but to Chris things are simplified. There are only three. So arm yourself. Let's dive into the three features and three strategies every startup must have.
Chris Beal (01:40):
This is the work that has to be done before the product is built. This is the key to the whole thing is, know that the product is going to succeed in the marketplace before you build the product. I hate to say it, but it sounds like an art of war thing. This is where you win the battle and you actually win the war before you begin fighting, because you're going to lay out the intelligence that you have in a way that guarantees that before your enemy starts to maneuver, you've already won. So the whole idea of this approach is to always win before building the product because you build the product that is going to not only win, that is you can set appointments for it, but that has such a headstart and such velocity going into the market, that you have the luxury of a full pipeline all the time, and you can be selective and choose the best customers.
And the issue is always customer quality, not customer quantity. And I don't mean this BS that people say about if I totally talked to one person a day, that's high quality. What I mean is your targeting needs to be as much as possible, like that hypothetical person in the bar. So think of it as I go in and I look at that person, but they look kind of fuzzy. Every time I try to focus on them sometimes they're tall, sometimes they're short, sometimes male, sometimes female, sometimes the drinking with the right hand, sometimes it's the left, sometimes it's whiskey, sometimes it's beer, that's not good. I want that shimmering image to come down to a single human being. That thing that they call a persona because that's all I've got. And then I'm going to make a list that I think contains them.
But of course it's got to be a little broad. Good queries always delivered too much data. Therefore good queries have always got to be winnowed against the obvious false negatives. Obvious false negatives must be removed because they're pure pollution and they can only be removed by inspection. And a huge mistake people make is they diddle around with the query to try to get the perfect list. If the process is due to query, inspect not one at a time, but in chunks of titles. Wipe out titles you know are bad, that you just know they're bad. If you're going after CEOs and you see somebody's title is assistant to the CEO and out of a list of 10,000, you have 2,337 of those, wipe them out. Don't go about making a better query, just get rid of them.
Corey Frank (04:07):
But why do people leave them in? Is it the security of the numbers? Is it the hope that maybe my persona could be saying, "Hey, it's a beer drinker and maybe he also could be a whiskey drinker and maybe he also drinks wine." And trying to take it from the backend of the dog versus having the empirical data stare at me in the face here.
Chris Beal (04:30):
Entrepreneurs make the mistake repeatedly encouraged by venture investors, by the way. To describe their market, their total addressable market is vast. As though that's an advantage, it's a huge disadvantage. The tighter your first market, the better off you are because the better your chance of your product actually solving the problem that that market has. If you're making shoes for people that have a left foot that's much larger than the right foot, that may be a small market, but every one of those pair of shoes has a chance of selling because those people who've got one and a half inch longer left foot than right foot, well, they're going to be very interested in your shoes and they're not going to be so worried about whether the laces are pretty or whether the colors are perfect or what the style is. Like, "Finally shoes that fit my foot."
So tight markets are excellent for going to market, and they're not great for raising money, but this whole technique avoids raising money because all the products can work before you build the product. So instead of wasting all of this effort doing your pivot on the product and you're going to market, do your pivot on the words between, "I believe we discovered a breakthrough." And "The reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar." That pivot costs you 15 minutes. Do your second pivot on the list. That pivot costs you an hour. So now you have two ways to pivot in order to explore combinations. And now we have the hard part, which is, "Okay, but what do I vary first?"
And what you vary is this, you make your list. So you put that person in that bar stool seat and you tighten it down as well as you can and you put some time into the list, not into the query, but into the list. Your list doesn't have to be big. If your market is a market of... Say your initial markets is a market of 10,000, you're going to need a hundred conversations. To get 100 conversations you're going to need a list of 500 folks. And you're going to talk to 20% of them. You're going to talk to 20% of them over four weeks. That's really easy. Maybe you'll talk to them over two weeks. If you use ConnectAndSell you'll talk to them in the first week. So there you are, it took you a week.
Message is not generating 5% conversation to meeting those two possibilities. One is, you're not very good at delivering the message. Well, there's three, actually. You're not very good at delivering is the message is the most common. Getting the intonation right and believing sincerely in the value of that meeting. You've got to write down, what is the value of this meeting potentially for this human being that I'm talking to.
Corey Frank (07:10):
Not the company. I need to make it as personal as possible.
Chris Beal (07:14):
As much about their day, "How was your day?" "You have no idea." As much about one of those you have no ideas. Whatever that bad thing is, it's got to be about that. And then that meeting has to provide value for them, not just around that by the way, but value for this person, which always means learning. The only value somebody can get out of meeting is to learn something. So you have to know what they are likely to learn and how that's likely to change their life. Even if they never buy your product.
The beauty of this is, you now have a product to sell which is very easy to make. It's called a meeting. You have value in that product, that's very easy to describe, it's called learning something. You got to be explicit though. This isn't like, "Hey, I'm going to hold a meeting and try to sell you something." Try to sell you something is not value. You must bring insights from your research, from your revelation. You have to bring those insights and allow this person to learn from them. And then you let them confess. And if their confession indicates that one of the things you're talking about is so intriguing to them that they want to tell you the answer to, "How was your day?" You're not going to get that answer. Then you focus on that. Ignore all of your other great ideas and say, "Okay. Went into my product feature category as interested in this and this is how I developed my feature set."
My feature set for my product is the output of discovery meetings. Sales are the secondary output. My first output, I'm not trying to prevent a disaster. The disaster is I build a product the market doesn't want. That's the number one way that startup companies run out of money. They build a product that they think the market wants and the market doesn't want it. It's called product market fit and everybody talks about it endlessly and then they put the cart before the horse and build the product and take it to market and see if it fits. The key here is the product is the message. The message is the product. The discovery meeting is the experience in which if someone confesses to having a need that you could fulfill in your product, they've told you about a feature that they need. They've told you about a capability.
This is how you do requirements gathering in a completely fail-safe way. By the way so far, how much have we spent? We spent $500 on Zoom. We spent 15 minutes coming up with a message. Somebody had to learn how to deliver a message with the right intonation. There are experts who could do this. You can learn to do it yourself. I recommend entrepreneurs learn to do it themselves. It's really straightforward. It's just, there's a belief in the value of the meeting. You have to write down three things that somebody is going to walk out of the meeting with that are of potential value for them if they never do business with you.
And then you got to push a button. Now, this is where it becomes really hard. This is where it becomes a ConnectAndSell commercial unfortunately, but it's just a fact of the world. Now, all you've got is time. So you can talk to two people a day and you could do it for 50 days. So 50 days is two and a half months. Or you can talk to 20 people a day and do it for five days. The problem with 50 days is now you're talking about real money. Now you need an external investor. At some point, if I'm going to cycle 50 days per test and I'm going to do 10 tests, I'm 500 days in before my 10 pivots have revealed the perfect product and that's too long.
So my real issue is in the original scenario, you propose the poor head of sales is asked to do this impossible task, which is take a product we don't know if anybody needs. That we haven't figured out why anybody's going to buy it. That we don't even know why they're going to take a meeting, figure it out. Redevelop the product as a set of persuasive techniques. And so the product itself gets hidden. If the sales guy's great, the product needs and its gaps in the marketplace get hidden behind good salesmanship. And what really happens is the great sales guy goes out and find somebody who needs the product for a completely different reason. Usually competitive advantage. There's no such thing as a product that you can gain competitive advantage from. Those are weapons. I sell a weapon. In that sense it's not a product. It's a weapon. You gain competitive advantage. Why do people buy it? They buy it to kill their competitors. That's why they buy it.
The great sales guy will take your idea of a product and go find this fabulous customer. They're the best in the world. They need this so bad. They tend to be really big. They're so excited. They're the only one we need. If we just get this one more, we'll make our number and their need for the product has very little to do with what it was built for. They need the components to pick apart and turn into a weapon and they will take you off course.
Now, if you invest for that fine. Hang out with those guys. But it's not a salesperson's job. Now you have to overcharge them a huge amount of money in order to have your weapon on an exclusive or semi exclusive basis, it's got to be in a market you're never going to address. You're going to leave that to sales? You're the entrepreneur, you're out of your mind. I hired a sales guy. He's really good and found a way to get us into a market of one, which we will now wallow in for two years, except he's going to price it down because it's not his job to price it up because he imagines he's going to sell more. Now we're done. That's how you enter the chasm and die. That's the exciting way. That's the ski jumping way of entering the chasm.
Corey Frank (12:38):
I lose control of my company, because they continue to raise maybe another round or two, maybe you'd get up to the C round and I've had maybe a handful of slight pivots, hope springs eternal, maybe replace the sales guy by two or three other guys that have maybe more domain expertise as I perceive it. And the feedback back to the product team is, "Well, if you guys only had X in a product then it would sell more as opposed to selling off the menu." And they're not addressing the problem from the true persona. What does the persona itself say is a problem that you were addressing and then work backwards up the funnel to the product features. That's what I hear you say at this point.
Chris Beal (13:28):
Exactly. Most products only need three features. Very unusual is to have a problem that's worth an initial solution in the marketplace that needs more than three features. So the question is, well, what are the three features? And are they worth something? What would somebody pay for them? And then, now I got to figure out, how does that work? How would you implement it? How would you deploy it? There's a whole bunch of things we don't know but the first thing we don't know is, is there anybody out there who's interested enough in this problem that they're going to pay to have it solved and which are the three elements? And the three elements tend to be... One of them tends to be economic. The product will deliver economic benefit in the form of decreased costs or increased revenue. Sometimes that's time. So it will deliver value in the form of decreased cycle time. Sometimes that's some business process.
So reducing cycle time to business processes that are at somebody else's bottleneck allows them to actually grow their business. So that's what I call a real product. A real product is a product that when applied improves their business. That's pretty exciting. So something that reduces cycle time at a bottleneck process will actually improve their business. If you apply the product, their throughput will go up. Because reducing cycle time at a bottleneck is how make throughput go up. If the product allows their bottleneck to be scaled, that is there's something expensive there or slow or whatever and they can replace it with something that has bigger capacity, then that can help too. Cycle time is the same, but you can shove more inputs in and get a higher flow of outputs out. Okay. That's wonderful. So that's one of them.
The second thing products can do is, I'll call it emotional cultural. That is the bottleneck process-wise turns out not to be where you need to invest. You need to invest in the robustness of the behavior of a team. So this is what a lot of sales tools do. They basically say, let's be happy or let's feel better about what we're doing or whatever. And that's actually big. Products that do that, that have features that improve the emotional cultural, the surround, so to speak. People call them vitamins, but I tell you they're more like a balanced diet. You're missing this entire macronutrient and you're in bad shape and that's why you're snapping at each other. Let's toss some juicy stake in and see if you guys start to act better. So it's something that in discovery, if you have part of your message, that's about the emotional element. That's good because they might resonate with that.
And then the other thing that a product can do is a product can take somebody forward strategically. So it doesn't actually address a bottleneck process. It doesn't actually make them happier or more productive working together better, reduce social friction and so forth. It actually lets them go somewhere from which they could go somewhere else. So strategy is always about a list. A list of destinations. A strategy is nothing but a list of destinations. Each destination has the peculiar quality that it lowers the cost and the risk of going to the next destination on the list. That's a strategy. Think of strategy as, I've come to a river and I've got to get across the river. The river is too wide to jump and it's too deep and swift to swim. I need rocks in the river. I'm going to make a path, my strategy in which I say, "I can jump from this rock to this rock, to this rock."
It could look really weird. Maybe sometimes I'm going back toward the bank from which I came. But that's because that's where the rocks line up. This is why strategy is hard. It's very rare that strategy might lie. Strategy is conceptually and emotionally hard because it takes us on a path that's not obvious. If it were obvious, we already would have taken that path. So when you sell a product that helps somebody get to a new destination, I call that a strategic feature. So in discovery we're going to talk about these three kinds of things and say, our breakthrough has an effect over here. It makes this faster or it makes this cheaper or makes the throughput bigger. It has an effect over here. It makes us happier. It lets us work together better. Our customers love us more, or it has an effect over here.
It actually allows us to go and become better, go to a new place, become the leader, something like that from which we can go forward. There's only three things we can do in business. We can either take what we have and make it run better, faster, cheaper, which means expand the bottleneck in some way. We can take who we have and have them work together better. And who we have includes our customers, our partners, and whatever, do something with people. Or we can do something with our situation. We can move to a position from which we can move to a better position.
That's the sum total of everything we can do in business, your product, better address all of those in some way. And we want to get discovery meetings in which somebody can say to us, "Man, it would be so great if we could produce twice as much at that particular bottleneck." If we can have twice as many sales meetings or somebody might say, "You know it would be so wonderful if our people could work together better. If the projects were more coordinated, if they hated each other less, if it was less like a Dilbert strep." And somebody might say, "Our market is really changing out from Honduras and we need to move from our current position as the provider of, I don't know, rebar, we've got to actually start providing custom rolled steel." Whatever it is, there's something in there that will appeal to them or answer number four.
Corey Frank (19:26):
Is there a magic cocktail or maybe a best practices cocktail where I don't want to just by appeal to the heart, the mind and the gut, do you try to grab one from each? Or am I making a mistake if I don't employ at least one specific emotional benefit into the breakthrough.
Chris Beal (19:48):
Huge mistake. The breakthrough itself only needs to be sufficient to get the meeting. In the discovery meeting you need to explore all three. You need to make a claim in all three areas. The claim doesn't need to be heavy handed, but it needs to be distinct. So the whole idea of this process is that the true core duty cycle of this whole thing is discovery meetings. The purpose of early discovery meetings is to discover your product, not to discover their problem. Like, "Hey, you have this problem. Let me go solve it." It's to discover the nature of their problems so that you can abstract out of that the features of your product. Your product is going to have three features. Really. If you can build more than three features and do it coherently, more power to you, but even an iPhone only had three features. You really think about it. One of them was a negative feature. The little keyboard was gone.
Corey Frank (20:48):
Yeah. Right. Right.
Chris Beal (20:50):
One of them was a funny feature that, "Well it works more like a computer so my apps can be broad." That's a strategic term from the foundation of being able to make real apps for a computer. You can go to a place that you couldn't go to before, which is the future is opened up to more solutions. And then one was emotional, which is the iPhone was just more fun to use. And you got a social benefit out of being an early adopter of it. It had three features. They were marvelous features. They got it all right. At that point, does the salesperson really have a problem?
Corey Frank (21:34):
No.
Chris Beal (21:34):
If you can make your product as appealing as an iPhone and the economic dimension, the emotional dimension and the strategic dimension, so that they don't even have to pick. The one that resonates with them first. "Oh, I love it because it's a more practical way for me to do the four things I have to do every day at work whereas my Blackberry can only do two and a half. And the stupid keyboard was driving me nuts and now I get to do this thing and I don't always keep..." "Oh, I like it because it makes me just look sexy as hell."
Corey Frank (22:05):
Where is the disconnect though, Chris? I find this where you and I have both been on the other side of pitches where folks are presenting their product to us for either a capital raise or a strategic or just a practice. It's we are the Uber of, we're like the iPhone of and it's an articulation issue or just simply unimaginative where they can't bridge that chasm where they see beyond this kind of self product love. They are in love with their own shadow and they don't take any of this advice from the market yet. They only believe it in the antiseptic clean room of their own mind that this product will be a breakthrough. If I can just get it out there, if I can just raise my $5 million on a 15 post money, then all my problems will be solved because I know that just getting it out into the universe will be enough.
Where do you see some of those common pitfalls where when I start a company with a product, I could be 100% completely brutally honest that it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the persona at the end of the bar thinks. How quickly that flywheel happens, where I can adjust, go to market, adjust, go to market versus the tree huggers who say, "No, no. It's a client problem and I'm going to go find another market and maybe another market and another market." And then again, I go through two or three, four cycles of funding and then now I'm at 7% of my company left and now I'm a hostage in essence.
Chris Beal (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah. And you're a hostage who's on your way to becoming a statistics. Not a good one. I think it's a fundamental paradox inside the entrepreneur. The entrepreneur has to have this massive... Call it passion, this irrational belief and their ability to solve a difficult problem that's out there. So they have this insight and the insight as well, if we just did this it solves its problem, whatever the problem is. So they have to irrationally believe that. And there were rational belief in the nature of irrational beliefs. It wants protection. The belief itself is the thing that they're afraid might die if they expose it to reality. So it truly, when somebody says, "It's my baby." The baby isn't the product. The baby is the belief that was born inside of them that says, "I can solve this problem and therefore I really don't want any negative feedback to come in."
Because that's just the same dumb naysayers who didn't solve the problem in the first place. I have to believe I'm right in everybody else's wrong in order to be an entrepreneur. So I start off in that place. So the question is really given that that's a requirement that I start off there, how do I get around that requirement? It's actually fairly simple, but it's hard. It's emotionally hard. You need a single advisor and you give that advisor a little bit of your company, rather than giving it to somebody for money. You need advice and it's go-to-market advice. And the go-to-market advice has to do with establishing a feedback loop that gets you the three free features of your product that still conformed to the basic shape of your baby.
So you can imagine the baby going out there and dominating the world and your advisor has to be very, very encouraging with regard to the feedback. Oddly enough, one of the advisers jobs is not to be brutally honest about the feedback, but to be brutally honest about the process. So the process is we're going to talk to people and we're going to have these conversations in which we find out which of the three kinds of problems that the economic, the emotional and the strategic are resonating most. So it's not like your baby could be ugly. It's just the little toes could be really pretty or maybe the baby has beautiful eyes or maybe when the baby coos, that's going to be lovely.
Corey Frank (26:19):
I'm hung up on that. They don't engage in that encouragement number one. And they certainly, from my experience don't often enough focus on the process. Instead, they focus on the brutally honest part. After you have your quarterly board meetings and you show your metrics that aren't going in the direction that you need to and then they'll pile on and, "Hey, have you thought about this market or this market in this market?"
Announcer (27:39):
You've been listening to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys radio show sponsored by ConnectAndSell on the Funnel Radio Channel. You've been listening to Market Dominance Guys sponsored by ConnectAndSell right here in the Funnel Radio Channel for at-work listeners like you.
Welcome to Market Dominance Guys. There’s a common storyline for newly minted entrepreneurs…it goes like this: I have a product… a widget…a service. It works…I think it works pretty well. And so now I'm going to hire a bunch of sales folks…probably a VP of Sales and he’s going to do the hiring…and then we're going to launch and then we’re going to get working and execute on that hockey stick picture I have in my investment deck. Oh, and we're also going to do the market launch, some PR about our funding, and spend a few bucks updating the website.
Now every superhero has their origin story…and in this episode, I’m going to ask Chris to dive in and talk about Startup Origin Stories: Is Sales the villain if something goes awry? Is sales the hero? Where’s the kryptonite in today’s VC funded startups and businesses?
Tune in to this episode of Market Dominance Guys to hear Corey and Chris explain sales isn't to blame.
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TRANSCRIPT FROM THIS EPISODE:
Chris Beall (00:00):
Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off-ramps of driving to the top of your market. It all starts, right now.
Corey Frank (01:00):
So I've been thinking about a conversation, Chris and I have had these last few weeks, quite a lot. There's a common storyline it seems, for newly minted entrepreneurs or even current business owners. And it goes like this. I have a product, a widget, a service, and it works. I think it works pretty well. And so now I'm going to hire a bunch of sales folks, probably a VP of sales, and he's going to do the hiring and then we're going to launch, and then we're going to get working and execute on that hockey stick picture I have on the financial slide in my investment deck. Oh, and we're also going to do the market launch, maybe some PR about our funding and then spend a few bucks updating the website. Now every superhero has their origin story. And in this episode, I'm going to ask you Chris, to dive in and talk about startup origin stories. Is sales the villain if something goes awry? Is sales the hero? And where's the kryptonite in today's VC-funded startups and businesses?
Chris Beall (02:11):
Take our beliefs as an entrepreneur. The belief that we have inside that we can solve a problem that's out there in the world. We need to turn that belief into two things. Thing number one is a message that is designed to cause somebody to take a meeting in order to learn more about this great insight that we have. And the number two thing is a list of people that we believe have a problem in their day that frustrates them. That feels wasteful to them. That keeps them from going where they want to go. We need to make a list of those people. And then we have just a very simple next step in the recipe, which is hold conversations with those people to set appointments, to have this meeting, that what we'll call this discovery meeting and the number one way that we know we should stop.
Stop moving forward. And pivot is when we cannot get that meeting flow rate or that meeting ratio conversation and meeting ratio above 5%. until we do that, we don't really know enough to hold those discovery meetings. We hold them anyway, but we're holding them without knowing how to get them. There's no point in having something downstream, that's very desirable that we don't know how to get. We need to be able to get those discovery meetings and we need to get them at a known cost and a known flow rate. Costs because money's important flow rate because time is important. We run out of money. We run out of market opportunity if we don't move fast. So what are those flow rates? The ratio is turns out a 5% conversations turning into meetings is one of them. It turns out another one is about 20 conversations per day.
That's a 100 a week. That means each week we exhaust statistically the information that we can get for a market of 10,000. 10,000 square root of 10,000 is 100. We've sampled the 10,000 sufficiently after 100 conversations.
Corey Frank (04:07):
After a week.
Chris Beall (04:08):
After a week, if 100 conversations in a week lead us to five meetings, then we know we're on a path where we can go and amp that up and say, let's hold those five meetings in the following week or whenever the next week or two. And let's go get another 100. At the end of the first month, we have 400 [crosstalk 00:04:25]. The problem is if it takes you 50 days to do a cycle instead of five days to do a cycle. And by the time you've done the average number of cycles, unless you just get lucky, right? Luck is wonderful. You get lucky, you get a hit on the first one. It's 5%. You hold those discovery meetings. They say, "Oh my goodness. I just can't believe that we're talking about this. I'd buy that. I'd buy that for twice as much as you're talking about." If that happens, great, boom done. Don't keep doing this process. Don't tune it any further. Make that list. You got the list, go sell.
So make the product, fill it in with services. Do all that stuff. Unfortunately, normally it's five, six pivots to get there. Why? Because there were subtleties that you missed when you formulate the problem in your head and those subtleties come back as feedback and discover. So now you need to change the message, but you don't want to change it reactively. You want to change it deliberate. So how do we do that? We hold the discovery meeting. We take the feedback from the discovery meeting. we say, "Oh, that's interesting." That's how, if I put this in the message, this word, it's normally one word, maybe two, then maybe I get a higher flow rate of meetings. You put that word in the message. You do another five days, you have another 100 conversations. You see what happens? Do I have seven meetings? Do I have five minutes? Do I have two meetings?
Whatever it happens to me at some point you're in that process, you've done three, four or five pivots. Five pivots will cost you a month and a week at 20 conversations a day. Five pivots at the usual rate of conversations will take you a year. So the differences between a year and a month and a week. This the key to everything. Is to get the cycle time to pivoting on the product, which is at that point, representatives nothing more than the message. And the message is nothing more than eight, 10, 16 words, right? Our message is this. And it took a little while to get there. I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration. Keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all.
That's a pretty simple message. It follows a bunch of rules that might not be obvious to folks who don't make messages for a living. It doesn't mention a product category because if you mentioned a product category, they won't take the meeting. They'll just say, "We're set." There's a whole bunch of things you're not doing in that message. That's pretty simple.
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Corey Frank (07:11):
And this is a common theme for new sales folks. I have a product, I have a widget, I have a service and I'm going to hire a bunch of sales folks. And we're going to launch, we're going to do the market launch, PR and product and new website. And then we just need the folks to hit the phone and sell a bunch of stuff. The last mile, every, all the hard stuff is done at this point. Right?
Chris Beall (07:37):
Absolutely.
Corey Frank (07:38):
And we'll just hire a bunch of inside sales reps, just hire a bunch of field reps, and then this product should sell itself. I'm an inside rep. And I pick up the phone and I usually have a script or a screenplay that my sales manager got from their sales VP who went to a bunch of workshops, or this is how they sold for the previous 15, 20 years. And lo and behold, when my results don't show it in the first 30, 60, 90 days. It's because I'm not working hard enough, or because I don't have enough tools in my tech stack, because no one's picking up the phone. So I think when we look at the basic building blocks, step one, chapter one, verse one as a sales professional with an already established or assumed to be established product that is good enough in a marketplace that speaks to a problem that should be fixed or ameliorated in the marketplace.
What are some of the common missteps that I would have as a sales rep that I don't even know I'm about to jump into. I'm assuming it's just the quality of the script or quality of the lead. If only people would pick up the phone and then once they do pick up the phone, these are the ratios that I'm stuck with. And I guess it truly is a quote-unquote numbers game at this point. So what is the known or the unknown unknown that I'm about to step into as a sales rep, as a sales leader, when I spring forth all these new sales, glistening sales phones, and sales stack galore, et cetera, when I'm just about to hit the starter's pistol?
Chris Beall (09:26):
Wow, that's a heck of a question. I actually think the setup turns out to be the big issue. And then the setup being, when you go and hire a bunch of salespeople, I'm going to look at it, not from the sales person's perspective, but from the perspective of what I'll call sort of the entrepreneur investor, somebody who's got skin in the game on this thing. And if the product launch, the go to market fails, they've got a serious problem. Problem is that they're going to run out of money and they might get another shot. Somebody else might take the market, whatever it happens to be. So I think the big problem is that they've hired salespeople before they actually know how to sell the product. So the biggest mistake I see people make is thinking that hiring a sales leader and having that person hire sales people is the next step after you have an offering and you've described the offering in some marketing communications sense, usually you describe it first to investors.
Even if it's not institutional investors, somebody has got to foot the bill for getting started with any new product. That's true of products that are launched as companies or products that are launched out of companies. In both cases, you have somebody who's saying, "Okay, I'll spend some money to take this state of the world out there from whatever it is right now to, hey, it's better because we're solving this problem." And then we'll make a bunch of money doing that. And isn't that wonderful. That's why we'll put the money into it. So somebody thinks there's a return and they take their imagination, the investor's imagination, and I'll call it the product proponent or the product champion, the entrepreneurs imagination about what can happen.
And they flesh it out through a whole bunch of difficult, expensive activities, including building the product, which I think is the most bizarre of those activities, given how expensive it is to build something. And this is very true in software, but it's true in other fields too. It's even true in services where you build out, hey, this is what we're going to do. Or you build out the software itself. Here's my minimum viable product, or here's my one data or here's my beta or whatever it is. And they haven't actually gone out and sold the least expensive version of the product through a series of conversations that give clean feedback as to whether anybody cares enough to even take a meeting. And when you work at logically, you sell a product until somebody will take a meet. So taking a meeting is the first signal that the product has a chance in the marketplace.
And if you flip it around and say, "Okay, so what's the strongest signal that you should not launch your product?" It's if you take a message out that says, here's the problem I think I could solve for you. And no one will even take a meeting. So why would you build a product that you can't get a meeting for? Therefore you should go get the meetings first. The number one mistake that people make is they don't go and get the meetings first before they build the product. It's a cart before the horse problem that is truly disastrous because the cart leads the horse off a cliff into that thing, that Jeffrey Moore calls the chasm. And then you go down into the chasm where there's no revenue and you spend your time after all of this investment is invested in the building of the thing, you've invested in the website.
You've invested the marcomm, you've invested in talking to each other so much that you should have stopped years ago. You've invested in your imagination. You've invested in maybe your marriage not being quite so good anymore. You've invested in all of this stuff. And now you're going to go find out if your investment has a shot. Nine out of 10 times as originally formulated. And I'm being very, very, very, very generous here. It doesn't have a shot.
Corey Frank (13:15):
And at that point, the companies go through multiple pivots. They try to re-engage and re-establish. So at what point is it 50% product viability and you start selling? When did this convergence, this meeting where the product development and the sales meet? It's not at the five yard line where the product is 95% done, 50 yard line, where the product is still malleable enough to adjust. When is that kind of that magic minute where, okay, concurrently start the sales reps as we are going to concurrently start building the foundation of the product?
Chris Beall (13:54):
I believe the way it should work is this. The safe way to take products to market is you conceptualize the product. You go, and you talk to some people who have the problem. If you are not a subject matter expert, what, by the way, in the problem that's being solved. If you don't have deep roots in that problem, you're going to have serious problems with your product anyway. Because products don't solve parts of problems, they solve whole problems. And the whole problem includes a bunch of subtleties that you don't understand unless you pin on the other side. So when somebody comes to me and says, "Hey, Hey, Hey, I'm going to do this incredible product." And it's in a domain they know nothing about, I know of one, somebody who was very irritated with the fact that their beloved grandparent was treated poorly by the medical system, by our healthcare system, going through very old age and ultimately death.
And so he decided to start a company to solve part of that problem. And it was the problem around prescriptions and treatments. And was the price fair. He didn't really have an insider's knowledge of that. I don't know how you would gain that except 20 years in the healthcare payments and insurance industry, but it was very well intentioned. And yet it was like watching somebody try to kind of climb Everest barefoot. I mean, there are those of us who will trot up to Everest barefoot, but you're not going to get very far up on the mountain barefoot. And that was, the good intentions meant nothing. So if you are on a product domain, if you're not a domain expert in that product area, you probably shouldn't be trying this anyway. If you are, you probably have a pretty good idea of message.
And if you can take that message and weaponize that so that you can actually reliably get a calibrated response out of the message itself, that will tell you whether you even should embark on building the product itself. So in a sense it's, while is still in the air at kickoff, the question is, can you feel the kickoff or is it going to bounce around down there and be recovered by the other team who's not going to punch it in? The real question is, can you catch the damn ball? And you don't know until you give it a try. So here's my recommendation of how to do this. This is Chris Beall's extremely cheap way of reliably and safely taking products to market with zero investment. And it works like this, make up a message using this technique. So imagine the person that will care about this problem the most. Call it your ideal customer.
Imagine it's Friday, it's 7:00 PM. You walk into their favorite bar. There at the third barstool from the left, there is your imaginary perfect, perfect customer. They got two empty beer glasses in front of them. They got one of them that's a third of the way drunk down. And they don't look completely happy. Even from the back. The body language says, maybe not a great week, maybe in fact, a pretty bad week. So you just saunter in, you put on your empathy face, you sit down in the barstool to their left, you turn to the right. And you say, "Hey, how was your day?" And this person's kind of look at you, your ideal customer's going to look at you and say, "You have no idea." And then they're going to tell you about their day. It turns out that's who you're ultimately selling to.
You may have a product that solves a problem for a company, but you never sell to a company you'll only sell to this person. And the only thing you're going to sell to this person is a meeting to learn more about why you think that you can solve a problem that's in that, how was your day litany of complaints? So they're going to lay out what's their day all about. And you come up with a simple message and your message goes like this. I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates, and you take the worst part of their day. That's there every day. That's the source of their frustration, where they don't have the time, the resources, or the support to do their job as well as they think they should do it. And you put that in that message. And then you weaponize that by putting an opener in front of it, that causes that person should you get them on the phone to stay on and listen to the next 27 seconds.
And you put a closer on it, you take it out and you see if you can get 5% appointments. The threshold for go-to-market is 5% appointment setting with the message that represents your product. The reason it's 5% is this. When you look at how products and solutions to problems work on the buy side, they tend to cycle about once every three years. That is if I just bought a solution or implemented a solution, I'm three years away from my next consideration of a solution for the same problem. So if everyone in the market is trying to solve a problem, and by the way, if they're not, you're doing it, right? If your product isn't solving a problem, that's trying to be solved by a lot of people in different ways. You're out of your mind. You can't take that into the market.
So now I'm the first guy to recognize this problem is very odd, right? That means you're going to have a lot of conversations. Would you say, "Do you know that you have this problem?" That is not a good conversation to have. You have to have a conversation that says, "When we were in the bar the other day, and you said you have no idea." The third thing you mentioned is that whatever, it's somebody who runs the lab for testing wine. The third thing you said is one more time, the owner of the winery walked in and dumped 400 tests on me. And he knows that the lab has only got a capacity of 200 a day and they had to be done by the end of the day, because the stuff's going to ship. I hate that. Why don't I get more lead time? Okay.
So say you have a product that without any changes, other than sticking it in his wine testing lab will increase his capacity by from 200 to 600, by reducing the cycle time of an individual test from five minutes to one minute, and it eliminates the need for some precursor chemicals or whatever, that's your imagined product. Okay. So say I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that comes from having a sample set of 400 dumped on you when you only have capacity for 200 and you got to get it done today, and you can't make any mistakes.
And the reason I reached out to you is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share that breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available? That is a weaponized message that will get those who are currently kind of interested to pay attention. Well, concurrently kind of interested if they're interested once a quarter and they're replacing their solution once every three years, there are 12 quarters. So only 8.5% of the market is even available to you right now. So if you go above half of that 5%, you will dominate the market. If you can set appointments with half the available market, which is 8.5% of the total market, and you can do that right now, you can terminate the market.
Corey Frank (21:17):
The 5%, how do I know when I'm reaching the 5% or how do I know how to compile my total addressable market, where I reached this magical threshold of 5%? The metrics that are involved is one thing, but it sounds like from your perspective that the pain messaging has to resonate with a certain subset of the market to even be viable.
Chris Beall (21:49):
You have a fundamental problem. This is like the hardest problem in science in general. Which is that you have multiple variables in play and each one has its own characteristic yield. So you have one variable, which is who are you trying to talk to? So don't worry about how hard they are to reach, this isn't 5% of those that are in the list. It's 5% of those you talked to. So now there's an efficiency question around the cost of talking to them all, which we can address separately. But this is really, if I have a conversation with somebody who is hypothetically that person in the bar, that person, my ideal customer, which is an entity in my imagination. So I try to take my imagination and turn it into a list of people. And the beauty is, by the way, it's a list of human beings, where the company they work for is a characteristic of them, not the other way around. That is the kind of company they work for as an attribute of the person.
The person is not embedded in the company, in this conversation, but the person is the person who's going to respond and take the meeting. Early on, all we're trying to do is solve the problem of getting a flow of meetings to happen. If we get the flow of meetings to happen, we're going to get information about whether the product really makes sense, but so far, all that's like problems zero, get flow of meetings with hypothetically qualified folks who have this problem. So how do I get that flywheel moving? First, I've got to get a little bit of purchase on it. So I have to take a guess, right? Do I grab the slippery part? Do I grab the gritty part? I don't know. I don't know. All I can do is hypothesize. So I make a list. That's my best hypothesis. It's the one that was in my head, as well as I can turn that into data using sources.
There are such great sources now, there are two ways to get this done right now that are so marvelous. They're kind of, they are truly transformative. One is go to Zoominfo and do a query, John. Yeah. 93% of the time or some crazy number like that, that query in Zoominfo is going to contain enough of your ideal customers, that you will be able to quickly subset it based on the response to the conversations you're having. And as long as you have enough folks to talk to, to determine statistically, can you get this to this 5%, you can get the job done. Remember the job we're trying to solve is should we taste it? Should we make a product to solve this problem? This is why the poor sales person is at the other end of this, trying to deal with the fact that they're trying to sell a product that shouldn't have been made, or maybe shouldn't have been made, or is off by 5%.
But it's the 5% accounts. And nobody knows because nobody's gone out to set the meetings. So they get it all backwards. And they say, "Salespeople, you go set the meetings." Well with whom? Oh, let's start guessing now. Right? You got to do your guessing early. So your first guess is you make a list. The second way to make a list as you go to LinkedIn sales navigator, you do the same kind of query that you would have done in Zoom info. You're looking for folks that are a little harder to find than the Zoom in query will let you do. And you always manually inspect the list. A list that's worth calling is a list that's worth inspecting. When it should never call a list that has not been inspected. Otherwise you can end up with artifacts of the query, not artifacts of your imagination, screwing up the list. That is if you're doing a query and the query has keywords in it.
And one of the keywords is short and common. You're going to get pollution in the list, false positives that come from the excessively broad match in that query. And so they're going to be in there. What you do is you take that list into say, Excel, you select the whole thing. You pivot it. You make a little pivot table, that's got the title and the count. And you look for titles that are totally inappropriate, or the count is big. And you simply then go back to the main list and you sort it by title, and you wipe those out. They didn't belong in there in the first place. And they're just, they're by catch. Think of it as you're fishing, you think you've got your net set up correctly, but now you're catching dolphins. Okay, well, get the dolphins out of there. It's not a good play, right?
Corey Frank (26:06):
But at this stage, the bigger, the list does not necessarily mean the better quality of a list because you're still at chapter one, verse one stage of trying to prove there is a market by validating meeting metrics. And most, whereas most sales leaders would probably say, "Oh, I can. I just did a query on Zoom for this select group, this title group. And I have 43,000 available folks. I'm excited. I need to hire them at that point. 40 sales reps to take it. And I'm going to use all that VC money to hire 40 sales reps when the market really hasn't been addressed yet, because I'm going off of my list size without a manual inspection to validate it or to vet that out."
Chris Beall (26:56):
Yeah. And if I ever get to that stage where I'm a sales leader, I'm kind of screwed because this work has to be done before any sales leader at seller hire. This is the work that has to be done before the product is built.
Chris Beall (27:53):
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