We Chat Divorce Podcast: Recent Episodes
My Divorce Solution
Welcome to We Chat Divorce with Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison, and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA, co-founders of My Divorce Solution – the company that delivers the quintessential financial blueprint to couples facing or going through the divorce process. This blueprint known as The MDS Financial Portrait establishes the foundation and options an individual or couple would need to make clear financial decisions when considering divorce. In each podcast, Catherine and Karen sit down with divorce professionals and other individuals who provide insight and frank discussion about real people, real situations, and real divorce.
In this episode, we welcome Hirsch Serman, a CPA, trained mediator and CDFA. Hirsch helps his clients work through financial complexities, tax ramifications and inequities in the settlement process. Hirsch is committed to helping each client understand the more complex tax and financial implications of their situation so that they can create a divorce settlement that truly accomplishes their goals. We hope this episode provides some tips to help you develop your divorce strategy! We also chat with Hirsch about:
Identifying values and priorities in your divorce
How to know what items you’re willing to give up
Knowing your starting point and ending point in the negotiation process
You can find more about Hirsch:
Website
Connect with us on social media:
Tik tok
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
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In this episode, we welcome Gabrielle Stone, an American author, actress, dancer and director. After the rug was vigorously pulled out from under her when her husband’s affair came to light, she found herself falling into the arms of another man. After a second failed attempt at love and a massive heartbreak, she decided that instead of landing flat on her ass—she’d make a career out of it. And so came the birth of the book Eat, Pray, #FML, where she shared all the mistakes, all the lessons, and most importantly, how she became a fearless leader from it all. When fans around the world demanded more, the highly anticipated sequel, The Ridiculous Misadventures of a Single Girl, and the podcast FML Talk were born—and Gabrielle soon realized that her broken heart had bloomed a movement. This episode is all about turning heartbreak into power We also chat with Gabrielle about:
How the trauma and heartbreak of divorce and loss can shape you as a person
Reclaiming your power after giving pieces of yourself away
Learning how to be okay by yourself
How to moving forward when you’re scared to start over
You can find more about Gabrielle:
Website
Connect with us on social media:
Tik tok
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
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In this episode, we welcome Caroline Strawson, Award Winning ICF Accredited Trauma Informed Coach and Therapist. Caroline helps women experience “post traumatic growth” after dealing with abuse from narcissistic partners. This episode is all about how to claim or take back your financial power and how to view narcissism through a trauma-informed lens. We also chat with Caroline about:
The journey beyond dealing with a narcissist partner - there is light at the end of the tunnel
Overcoming the trauma from being married to and divorcing a narcissist
The 5 main types of financial abuse by a narcissist
Narcissistic relationships and how to tell if you are in one
You can find more about Caroline:
Website
Connect with us on social media:
Tik tok
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
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In this episode, we dive into the intriguing world of finance and unravel the mysteries surrounding forensic accountants during divorce. In this episodes we discuss:
What it means to be a Forensic Accountant
How to know if you actually need one on your divorce team
The significance of the MDS financial portrait before further seeking expert assistance
Connect with us on social media:
Tik tok
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
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In this episode, we sit down with Jillian Abby, author, story teller, podcaster and advocate for the LGBTQ+ community. This episode is all about financial challenges in divorce when coming out. In this episode we discuss how to ease the divorce process when “coming out” of a same sex marriage. We chat with Jillian about:
Jillian’s coming out story as a spouse in a “good marriage”
The financial difficulties in divorce when coming out and being a stay-at-home parent
How to consider your emotional capital in divorce
The benefits and downfalls of being considered overly amicable in the divorce process
You can find more about Jackie & Divorced Girl Smiling
Website
Connect with us on social media:
Tik tok
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
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In this episode, we sit down with Jackie Pilossoph, Editor and Chief of Divorced Girl Smiling. Divorced Girl Smiling (DSG) is a community of support and connection where you can feel heard and understood. DGS has a mission to empower, connect and inspire men and women before, during and after divorce. In this episode we chat with Jackie about:
Claiming or taking back your financial power
Taking steps toward being more kind and forgiving to yourself
How financial independence can lead to independence in relationships
You can find more about Jackie & Divorced Girl Smiling
Website
Connect with us on social media:
Tik tok
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat with Tracy Moore-Grant, founder of the Amicable Divorce Network, an international association of seasoned, licensed professionals who are dedicated to helping reasonable people navigate the process of divorce. Tracy has represented clients and practiced exclusively in the area of family law since 2002, giving expert divorce guidance and helping parties avoid costly and destructive litigation.
In this episode we chat about:
What it means to divorce amicably and how to get started
How to find the best professional to support your amicable divorce
The alternative solution to traditional litigation-forward attorneys
You can find more about Tracy:
Website
Connect with us on social media:
TikTok
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat with Gilza Fort-Martinez, a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 25 years of expertise in couples therapy, conflict resolution, and improving interpersonal relationships. Gilza teaches us the four Rs of emotional restoration and how to rebuild trust in a new relationship.
Gilza is the founder and CEO of Resolution Counseling Center, a private practice in South Florida where she has successfully helped hundreds of individuals create paths of resolution that have turned their lives around.
In this episode we chat about:
The four Rs of emotional restoration according to Gilza
Recovering from betrayal trauma
How to properly rest after a divorce, and
How to rebuild trust and start anew in a new relationship
You can find more about Gilza:
Website
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat with Marianna Goldenberg, CDFA, about financial divorce topics you may not know about. Marianna shares with us the five most common mistakes when dividing executive compensation in divorce and other insider financial divorce tips.
Marianna has 30 years of industry experience and is the founder and CEO of CURO Wealth Management. As a CDFA, Marianna loves to empower people to make important decisions for their financial future.
In this episode we chat about:
Why deferred compensation plans are important to your financial future
The 5 most common mistakes spouses make when splitting executive compensation
The different options for deferred compensation plans
You can find more about Marianna:
CURO Wealth Management
Listen to more divorce podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
There's a crucial gap in the divorce legal system that most people aren't aware of. If you are considering divorce, a divorce plan is a critical first step for setting yourself up for success. This week, we show you how to create a divorce plan that will prepare yourself and your divorce team for one of the most challenging aspects of divorce - the separation of finances.
In this episode we chat about:
The missing gap in the divorce system you may not be aware of
How a good divorce plan can save time and fees with your divorce attorney or mediator
How to shift power away from the legal system and towards yourself
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
While we focus a lot on women's perspectives on We Chat Divorce, on this episode we explore men's experience in divorce.
This week, we chat with Rob Roseman, creator of WTF divorce, host of Dad the Best I can Podcast, and divorced dad of three. We discuss how men find their divorce support system and the actions you are unknowingly taking that are over-complicating your divorce.
In this episode we chat about:
How men deal with divorce differently than women
Finding the right divorce support system as a man
How to stop over-complicating your divorce
Connect with Rob and WTF Divorce:
Website: WTF Divorce
Instagram: @wtfdivorce
Podcast: Dad the Best I Can
Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com.
____________________________________________ The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
We focus a lot on the spouses during divorce, but what about our kids? This week, we chat with Danielle Kelly to understand divorce through our childrens’ perspective. We discuss everything from how we should approach our kids about divorce to ensuring they have the right support system. Watch the whole episode to hear Danielle’s takeaways from her parents’ divorce.
In this episode we chat about:
When to tell your kids about divorce and how it affects them
Finding the right support system for your kids
The different ways your kids may deal with divorce emotionally
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Credit Cards, Debt, and Divorce. Don’t worry, this week, we tackle it all and chat about the importance of knowing which assets and debts belong to which spouse. When spending money or paying off debts, make sure to categorize each one to avoid costly mistakes during divorce.
In this episode we chat about:
How to categorize spending as personal or marital
Why you shouldn’t pay off debt too early without knowing how much your spouse is liable for
How to negotiate debt during a divorce
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
____________________________________ The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat with Stacy Francis, founder of Francis Financial and Savvy Ladies - a nonprofit that empowers women to take financial control. Stacy shares with us her expertise in divorce finances, as well as top mistakes to avoid when it comes to splitting assets.
In this episode we chat about:
Identifying different financial assets and how to find the “hidden” ones
Calculating the worth of assets correctly to avoid costly lawsuits
How cryptocurrency can play a bigger role in your divorce than you think
You can find more about Stacy:
On her website
On her White Paper
On her organization
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode, we chat with David DeWitt, CFP about ADHD and how it impacts the divorce process. David, a Certified Financial Planner for adults with ADHD joins us to talk about finances, investing, and other areas of life that ADHD impacts. Listen to the end to hear David’s insights on what ADHD behaviors look like in adults and tips to keep your finances in check.
In this episode we chat about:
How ADHD impacts financial behaviors and exercises to manage it
How to manage ADHD to make investment decisions without emotion
How to avoid being a target in divorce if you have ADHD
Connect with David:
ADHD Money Talk Podcast
Financial Planning for Adults with ADHD
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat with Kate Anthony, host of the New York Times recommended podcast “The Divorce Survival Guide”. We have open and honest conversations about abuse, finances, separation, and the hardest question of all, should you stay or should you go?
In this episode we chat about:
How to withstand coercive behavior and gaslighting in divorce
How financial abuse is one of the most common forms of abuse
How to understand your financial contributions as a stay at home parent and claim your rightful assets in divorce
You can find more about Kate:
On her website
On Apple Podcast
On Instagram
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat about dad’s side of divorce, and the importance of keeping our kids out of the line of fire during the divorce process. We discuss the importance of spending time with our kids and how to avoid abusing our financial situation.
In this episode we chat about:
Shifting blame away from your kids for your decisions
The importance of showing up consistently for your kids
Avoiding using finances as an advantage over your ex
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, we chat with Cindy Stibbard, a professional divorce coach, about how to properly cover all of your bases when going through a divorce. Getting an attorney doesn’t mean your work is done in protecting yourself; there are some aspects of divorce an attorney isn’t qualified to advise on. You still need to stay aware, process the divorce emotionally, and make a plan for moving on.
We dive deep with this divorce coach into:
How to get yourself prepared for all aspects and stages of a divorce
The benefits of having a divorce coach to help you navigate your emotions
Why an attorney is not an all-in-one solution to your divorce
You can find more about Cindy:
On her website
On Facebook
On Instagram
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s episode we chat with Tracy Malone, author and narcissistic abuse coach, on her strategies for protecting yourself when divorcing a narcissist! We discuss behaviors of narcissist exes and how divorcing a narcissist is different from a “typical divorce.”
In this episode we chat about:
Gaslighting and how narcissists can make you question your sanity
The small divorce details you should pay attention to when divorcing a narcissist
Overcoming fear and protecting your own assets when divorcing a narcissist
You can find more about Tracy:
On her website
On YouTube
On Instagram
Find more podcast episodes, divorce blogs, and our divorce community at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s Divorce Explored we give out some crucial divorce tips for mothers. Make sure you’re prepared and don’t finalize your divorce without knowing these!
In this episode we chat about:
How to financially prepare for the divorce process
Avoiding rash decisions by keeping your emotions in check
Believing in yourself by standing up for yourself and your children
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s Divorce Explored we chat all things Settlement Agreements. Find out what you need to know about these Agreements, and how to cover your bases to best protect yourself.
In this episode we chat about:
What’s included in a Divorce Settlement Agreement
The differences between a Divorce Settlement Agreement and Divorce Decree
Paperwork you need for yourself and your attorney to protect yourself and your assets
In each episode of We Chat Divorce we demystify a divorce topic -- exploring divorce and its impacts on your finances. We'd love to hear your episode suggestions: email us at: hello@mydivorcesolution.com.
Looking for more explorations into Divorce? You can find our full podcast library at mydivorcesolution.com or your favorite podcast player.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week Karen Millon from Healin Podcast joins us to chat about what stops us from reaching our life goals, and how to overcome these obstacles.
In this episode we hear about:
Shedding negative thoughts about yourself and reshaping your confidence after divorce
Knowing you are capable of taking initiative to explore the unfamiliar and unknown
Understanding the side effects of your divorce decisions to make the right decisions
Karen Millon, author of An Amazing Divorce and certified Transformational Life Coach, is on a mission to inspire and support talented individuals who are struggling with their divorce or breakups and want to thrive personally, romantically and professionally.
To connect with Karen:
Web: Healin Podcast
Social media: @healinwithkaren
Social media: @healinpodcast
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, we chat with Ashley Nicole Russell on how her law practice helps clients divorce with integrity.
In this episode we hear about:
Maintaining the power in your divorce by picking the right attorney
Keeping the wrong people away from your divorce to build a strong foundation for your future
Collecting the right resources so you can take control in divorce - treating divorce like a chess game instead of feeling like a pawn in a legal game
Ashley-Nicole Russell, Esq. is an award-winning family law attorney, author, and speaker who is changing the way divorce is perceived around the world. She is widely-known as a dedicated, passionate, and trustworthy attorney with integrity. She is committed to protecting her clients while understanding the needs of their families. As a child of divorce and divorcee, she brings a unique, relatable, and personal understanding to ANR Law Offices and the communities it serves. As the first collaborative law firm in eastern North Carolina, ANR Law has office locations in Greenville, Raleigh, Beaufort, and Wilmington.
To connect with Ashley: ANR Law
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Certified Financial Planner Paula Nangle, President of Marshall Financial Group, shares her insights on helping clients achieve their maximum potential in life.
In this episode we hear about:
How Paula’s expertise not only helps clients with their financials, but she also helps them live to their best potential
Top tips to maintain or restore your credit score after a divorce
Surviving the twists and turns of life when going through a divorce
Paula is a Certified Financial Planner and has been President of Marshall Financial Group since 2016. Paula is laser-focused on instilling the values that have guided Marshall Financial for 40+ years. “Running the firm is truly a team approach, with everyone in our management group working together seamlessly and in the same direction,” she says.
To connect with Paula: Marshall Financial
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week we have Jennifer Warren Medwin on the podcast to share with us the Four Quadrants of Divorce as highlighted in her book “Strategies and Tips from a Divorce Coach: A Roadmap to Move Forward.”
In this episode we hear about:
The biggest issue that couples face in a relationship
The four quadrants you need to know to be prepared for divorce
Separating the different aspects of divorce for making clear decisions
Jennifer is a Certified Divorce Coach, Supreme Court of Florida Family Mediator, and a Certified Marital Mediator. She’s distilled her divorce coaching expertise into a new book and My Divorce Solution is featured on page 84!
To connect with Jennifer: Seeking Empowerment
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week we have T.H. and Jessica from exEXPERTS to give us their advice on the best ways to deal with divorce stigmas. In this episode we hear about:
The way society treats divorcees, and the stigmas that come with it
Creating a support system to get the right feedback for yourself
Giving your children the ability to make better decisions tomorrow regardless of the ones today
How exEXPERTS can give you the knowledge of all aspects of divorce in one place
Whether you are considering separation, getting a divorce, or are a newly divorced woman, T.H. and Jessica can help you not only survive but thrive a divorce. Having gone through this process themselves, they are not only knowledgeable in the field but can personally relate to your situation. exEXPERTS’ diverse team of experts are here to empower you with the resources you need to come out of the divorce process better than ever.
To connect with ExExperts:
Website: https://exexperts.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZhug0U2OaOzQvgjiU4n8Vg
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/exEXPERTS/
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this week’s Divorce Explored we uncover one of the hottest divorce topics: finances. We’re giving you the same insights we give our clients to help them make divorce decisions with financial clarity - not fear.
In this episode we hear about:
How to get your financial house in order when preparing for divorce How to analyze your financial situation and set yourself up for a successful future post divorce Financial mistakes to avoid when getting a divorce Why a credit report gives you the information you really need for looking at your divorce finances
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
We’ve launched a new podcast series: Divorce Explored - where we answer all your questions about the divorce process - through a financial lens.
In this week’s Divorce Explored: Settlement Agreements, we give you all our insider information about Settlement Agreements and how to get prepared before putting anything on paper.
In this episode we hear about:
What a Settlement Agreement is Why you might need a Settlement Agreement The legal role of a Settlement Agreement and its standard components How to get prepared before you start a Settlement Agreement
You can find blogs, articles, and more information on the divorce process at mydivorcesolution.com.
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
This week we have Elise Buie, founder of Elise Buie Family Law Group, to give us her professional opinion on the best ways to approach a divorce in order to start a better life post divorce.
In this episode we hear about:
How a divorce could be the start of a better life, not the end of your best life Elise’s experience with her clients and how some have blossomed into millionaires How to make the best long term decisions for your children The difference in making objective decisions and avoiding fear based decisions
Elise Buie is the Founder Elise Buie Family Law Group, helping families live their best lives as they transition through divorce or other family changes. Her practice involves all aspects of family law: preparation of postnuptial and separation agreements, parenting plans, child support, simple and complex financial cases, relocation, and blended families.
Elise Buie, Esq. is a passionate, creative, problem-solving family law attorney who creates solutions, not obstacles. After evacuating her hometown of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and surviving a divorce, Elise landed in Seattle and founded her law firm. Elise's practice involves all aspects of family law, guided by a collaborative philosophy and her deep understanding of complex parenting issues. Elise opened her firm during a period of personal adversity. Now in a period of global adversity, Elise's firm has experienced its most significant growth yet, which she attributes primarily to her driving force and mantra: "I can do it."
To connect with Elise:
Website: https://elisebuiefamilylaw.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elise-buie/
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com!
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL’S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you!
This week, Michelle Dempsey-Multack, author of the upcoming book “Moms Moving On” joins We Chat Divorce to discuss what it means to divorce peacefully and create a healthy environment for yourself and your child.
In this episode we hear about:
How being around an environment of divorce growing up affects your views of it How divorce doesn’t always have to be a battle to make yourself better than the other person How to create emotional boundaries to create a safe space for your children How divorce is a journey and the situation today won’t be the same forever
Connect with Michelle:
Website: https://momsmovingon.com/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/themichelledempsey
You can find blogs, articles, and more divorce resources on our website at mydivorcesolution.com!
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Shanahan, Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Shanahan and Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, SHANAHAN, AND CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
On the newest episode of We Chat Divorce we’re joined by Erin Levine, Esq. to discuss DIY Divorce. Levine is a Certified Family Law Specialist, owner of Levine Family Law Group and Founder/CEO of Hello Divorce. Her innovative, disruptive approach to how Americans interact with the law makes her both a loved and feared force in the legal world. With her groundbreaking divorce navigator platform, she’s revolutionizing the broken divorce process, making it affordable and available to everyone. Erin’s access to justice work has been recognized by the legal industry and beyond, with awards and recognition from the likes of Women Founders Network, Forbes, Vice, and the American Bar Association.
Learn More >> https://hellodivorce.com/about/erin-levine/
Connect with Erin Levine, Esq. on LinkedIn >> @ErinLevine
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Shanahan, Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Shanahan and Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, SHANAHAN, AND CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Catherine and I are so happy today to welcome attorney and founder, Erin Levine to our podcast. Welcome Erin.
Erin Levine:
Thank you for having me. I always love talking and with both of you, I think it's going to be a great conversation today.
Karen:
I'm so excited. Thank you. Same for us. So in this episode, we're going to discuss insider tips on DIY Divorce. But first I'm going to take a couple minutes and introduce Erin. Erin Levine is a certified family law specialist. She's the owner of Levine Family Law Group and Founder, CEO of Hello Divorce. Erin's innovative, disruptive approach, I love that, to how Americans interact with the law makes her both a love and feared force in the legal world. With her groundbreaking divorce navigator platform, she's revolutionizing the broken divorce process, making it affordable and available to everyone.
Erin's access to justice work has been recognized by the legal industry and beyond with awards and recognition from the likes of Women's Founder Network, Forbes, Vice, and the American Bar Association. I also want to add Erin, congratulations on all the work you and your team have accomplished at Hello Divorce. It's a lot of hard work. We often see your name front and center in legal justice conversations. It's not a secret that the court system of handling divorces in America is in a word broken, and we applaud you for all that you're doing.
Erin Levine:
Thank you. Thank you. That was a beautiful introduction. I appreciate it.
Karen:
Well deserved. We can end the podcast now. That was awesome. So Erin…
Catherine:
Not to cut you off, but all anyone wants to hear is divorce, affordable, fast through your process. Awesome.
Erin Levine:
I hope, yes. I hope that we are really making efforts all of us collectively to make the process friendlier and simple and cheaper and being able to help people figure out when they should be spending money and when they should be saving it and all that good stuff. So, yeah, let's get to it. Let's talk about these tips and I'm really excited.
Karen:
Okay, let's go. So before we dive into the tips, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your story and journey that created the passion for the work you do and how the divorce.
Erin Levine:
Yes, absolutely. The vast majority of people divorce without a lawyer and whether you divorce with a lawyer or without, once you file that initial paperwork, you learn just how broken and impossible the system is to navigate. It is wildly inefficient. And the worst part about it is it sets people up to fight. You are filing a lawsuit. It says in many states, X versus Y. You are instructed to resolve conflict by going in front of a judge and throwing your spouse under the bus.
Erin Levine:
And so that style or that way that we divorce in this country always bothered me and always frustrated me and caused me great concerns for my clients, because the goal of divorce should always be to reorganize your life and your family in a way that makes the most sense for you, where you are setting yourself up for a best next chapter, not destroying everything that ever existed, not focusing on revenge or everything that went wrong in your marriage because your marriage wasn't a failure until you got to that point. For many years, it was a success and a lot of wonderful things came out of it.
Erin Levine:
And so with that, I became a family law attorney because of the concern I had around the system being broken and my own experience navigating the system as a late teen. And I built a law firm, I scaled it, at one time, had 10, 12 attorneys. And we were really doing a lot of great work litigating and negotiating and mediating contested divorces. But what kept on coming back to me is that piece of every time we won, that means somebody lost and that can be so devastating for a family. And I just kept coming back to the point that divorce doesn't have to be a zero sum game. There has to be a better way. So that's when I scaled way back my law firm and started to think through what a new company could look like.
And I founded Hello Divorce to create a platform that transforms the divorce experience into a friendlier, simpler, and cheaper alternative to battling it out in court. What we are primarily focused on right now is legal because everyone who has to get a divorce or everyone who's getting a divorce, excuse me, has to go through the legal process. So we want to make sure that we are helping with that first and foremost, but where we are ultimately going is to help people with many other things that come up throughout divorce, because it's not an event, it is a process and there's issues and all sorts of things that people help with before, during, and after divorce. So we're just starting to explore how we can help in other ways. And that started with our divorce support series that we launched last week. Yeah. So super exciting.
Karen:
Yeah. Awesome.
Catherine:
It's really exciting. As you know, Karen and I have seen the same struggles with the system. Why is it being done this way? And why are families being put through this process? And hearing back that it's the process, it's the system, it's just not good enough for us anymore. And I think the people going through divorce are getting smarter and wiser. It doesn't have to be that way and you hit it head on when you said when an attorney has to file for divorce, the other person is getting sued. I'm suing you for, or I want full custody. Some of that language I understand attorneys have no way around because that's the language, but if you can avoid going that route first, that's the best way to avoid that language.
Erin Levine:
Yes, absolutely. There are a million really well-intentioned lovely lawyers, but once you get yourself into that system, it is really hard to get out and lawyers when they are representing a client, have to follow all the rules. And like you said, sometimes that means using language like you're being sued or we're taking you to court. So to the extent that you can opt out of the system or at the very least set some ground rules with your spouse, or if you guys are represented with the lawyers to try to focus on resolution first, it doesn't mean there won't be conflict because there will always be conflict. That's just the nature of divorce. You've been married for a very long time. You can't unravel that overnight, but to the extent that it is possible to opt out the system, set ground rules or negotiate outside of the court system, that's what we're here for.
Karen:
I love that because I feel a lot of people, maybe most people are either looking for emotional justice or a divorce decree, or they think the moment they hire an attorney is the moment they can hands-off somehow you're going to deliver to me everything I want. And so all three of those are missed. I was just speaking with someone last week and she was just so passionate, just need a divorce, my husband is sending money overseas and he's created all this debt. I just need a divorce. And I said to her you know if you get a divorce and you haven't covered all that territory, you're worse off than you are today. And I don't think she realized that. I think she was just so focused on that divorce decree, that she doesn't even understand that there is a process and it doesn't necessarily have to include the litigation piece of it, but she had to take some steps to help herself.
Erin Levine:
Yes. And no wonder why she's confused. We have been told over and over and over again that there's two ways to do divorce either with the lawyer full representation, balls to the wall, we're going to litigate the heck out of this case or DIY you're on your own good luck. And what we have now learned is that there are so many other options and getting a divorce and feeling successful and feeling that you have that peace of mind that, hey, this wasn't perfect, but I made it through and I'm ready to really embark on my next best chapter doesn't necessarily include legal help. It can include financial health if that's what you need most, it can mean wellness support. There's so many different things. So we want people to take a step back and think about what do I need most, what am I most concerned about? And then take a look and see what those options are. It might be legal. It might not be.
Karen:
I love that. So on that note, Hello Divorce is recognized for disrupting the divorce industry. So can you tell the listeners a little bit about what Hello Divorce is doing? What is it that Hello Divorce is doing to set itself apart in the divorce industry to make a difference?
Erin Levine:
Absolutely. So we created a platform that helps people navigate the legal aspects of divorce. So what that means is in every state, you have lots and lots and lots of procedures, lots of forms that have to get prepared, filed, delivered to the court at appropriate intervals, served on your spouse, just to be able to get divorced. So even if you have a full agreement, you have to follow this path. And so what we've done is make it really easy to be able to do that. So you can use our software to not only prepare the forms that need to be filed with the court, but then also you can level up to obtain any of the services that you feel like you need or want to help you through. So our most popular product/service is DIY Pro. What that is, is you complete all of these questionnaires at your own time.
Erin Levine:
Yeah. Basically on your own time. And when you are done and you've completed each step, there are three steps, a divorce manager jumps in to give you some encouragement, to make sure all the forms are complete, to file them with the court, to coordinate with your spouse and to give you instructions on what comes next. And ultimately that divorce manager is going to ensure that everything gets done timely and properly. And so you are divorced on the schedule that you want it to be.
Erin Levine:
But we also understand that in a lot of cases, people need additional help. So we offer other services that include access to a lawyer for legal advice in increments of 30 minutes or more, or our cooperative divorce program, which includes both spouses and an awesome mediator. So you use our software to travel through, disclose your finances, prepare your legal forms, but you have a mediator who jumps in and helps you resolve any of the issues that might come up that you're stuck on. So that might be some child support. It might be dividing property, but whatever it is, he or she is there to really help you guys come to an agreement so we can get it down on paper and filed with the court.
Karen:
Well, excellent. Yeah. So on that note and because Hello Divorce seems to be doing it really well, currently explain why does divorce costs so much in America? What's going on?
Erin Levine:
So the average cost of divorce in the United States, according to USA Today ranges from between 18 and $25,000 per person if you have children. You would think it would be exponentially less if you don't have kids, but it's still well over the $10-$12,000 mark. So divorce is insanely expensive. And it's a combination of a few things. I think the minute that you lawyer up in that traditional sense, you are sending your spouse a message, even if it's just to protect your own interests, that message, that cultural message is you are in it to win it. And so I always tell our customers that if their spouse has hired a lawyer, it doesn't necessarily mean that. It's okay. And it's healthy for you emotionally, legally, financially to have a lawyer help you through a divorce. But one reason why divorce is really expensive is because A, people lawyer up, and there's that immediate fear and fear has us do really irrational things like sometimes respond by lawyering up with the most aggressive lawyer in town.
Erin Levine:
The other reason is just the complete inefficiency of the legal system and how dated it is. So as an example, there are many courts across the country, even in big cities, that to file a document, you have to have a fax machine, or even if you have a full agreement, you have to do 20-30 forms, especially with the pandemic. Even with online hearings, we see that courts are backed up if there's not an emergency or what they believe is an emergency, it could take you 3, 4, 5, 6 months, even a year before you get into court to resolve something as simple as a temporary order for child support. And then of course, lawyers are taught for the most part to win, and that's what they're paid for. And that's what you expect when you put a lot of money in and any time that it becomes a win/lose situation, we're going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars in court. So those are some of the really big reasons why divorce is incredibly expensive in this country.
Catherine:
And what's so frustrating about that is because that win is defined by what? So if you're the one going through divorce, your attorney may think they won, but did you really win in the end? And that's the [crosstalk 00:16:11] a lot of times we find that individuals do not understand the components of their marital estate and are not able to interpret that. So when it comes to making compromises and knowing what their options are, they can't do that. And so a win to them is not a win if they don't understand what they have and what they're going to do with it. So they're spending all this money on the system and then this process that isn't really working to their benefit, which is why people are so bitter after divorce, which is sad to me.
Erin Levine:
That's right. Unless there's an emergency, there's no reason why a lawyer should be jumping in and filing motions right off the gate. You cannot understand how to dissolve your marital contract, which really is a financial contract until you understand what you have. So the very first thing we should be doing preferably even before the divorce starts, but definitely early on is gathering data. Sometimes one spouse has far more access to that financial data than you do. And it doesn't necessarily mean that that spouse is bad. It could've just been the dynamics in your relationship, but one way or another, you have to have all that in front of you before you can make good decisions on what you're going to compromise on versus what is an absolute necessity for you.
Erin Levine:
And so that has to be the number one goal. What do we have, understanding what those assets are, understanding the ramifications around dividing them or transferring them or equalizing them. And then ultimately making a decision that comes from a place that is educated and informed. That's what I love about what you ladies are doing. It's just absolutely key. And I see a lot of spouses that are trying to rush their spouse to get things done. And ultimately that's just setting everyone up for failure.
Catherine:
Absolutely. If you take that pause and you're able to get that information, it's a matter of then just deciding where everything goes, instead of fighting over what everything is, then you can then hook into your system. And if you need that one-on-one with an attorney or if you need that mediation help, it's there for you. But then if you have all this data that you can make that decision, then you just need the paperwork to do it.
You don't need to sit in front of a judge. I can recall a client who came in, her husband was the judge. And so in finding out all the information and how he ran his financial household, I thought, hell if he was my judge and I was going through a divorce, I'd be mortified. He didn't know how to run his own household, let alone tell me what to do with my household. So there's a lot of that out there that you don't understand. So you're better off standing in your own estate here and figuring that out first.
Erin Levine:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that that point it's going to resonate with a lot of people. And so I just want to expand on a little bit more. Earlier this week, we posted a quote from Adele that we found on E Entertainment news and it said something about how oftentimes when we see a woman get divorced, we picture them as spinning out of control. And she said, but I've never felt so peaceful in my life. And that is so powerful because I think we do that a lot, especially when women are divorcing in their 40's, 50's, or 60's. We as a culture look to them, oh, they're having a midlife crisis or oh something snapped, maybe it's menopause, but it's not okay. But really these women, because we're meeting them by the hundreds are more powerful and more clear than they've ever been in their life.
And they are choosing a path and it's so brave. And so for these women, I just want to remind you that wanting this information, wanting to be clear about what the finances are, wanting to make educated decisions is not being crazy. It's not being unreasonable. It's not being unfair. It's not being litigious. It's really making healthy, positive decisions for you and your family. And I say it because I've seen it a lot. I've done a lot of the mediation in our cooperative divorces. And I've seen it on both sides where one spouse is like, can't we just be done? What's the big deal? I told you how much is in that account. I told you what vested versus unvested means and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, putting a tremendous amount of pressure on the spouse who's new to the financial picture. And it's not unreasonable to want to be clear. In fact, not being clear could mean destroying your financial wellbeing.
Catherine:
If you say being clear. Being clear is powerful. That's probably the most power that you can give yourself in divorce. If you're clear about a decision that needs to be made, you're making a really smart decision. I say it all the time. Attorneys get their backs against the wall if their clients ask them a lot of questions. If you have an aggressive spouse that handled the finances and you ask a lot of questions, they feel like you're questioning them and they become very defensive.
So I always say, ask as many questions as you want. It's your right. Asking a question doesn't mean you're questioning somebody else. It's your right to have that power. And it'll never go regretfully that you have it to your next chapter as you say.
Erin Levine:
Yes, absolutely.
Karen:
I agree with that. Shifting the power out of other people's hands into your own is so powerful so that when your spouse is saying, I told you all this, you get to decide if you have enough information to verify that, and when your attorney or your mediator or some other professional, it doesn't even matter who says with all this money, do you know how many people would want to be in your shoes?
Well, that's for you to decide. That's not for anybody to decide for you. And so to your point, it's not coming from a place of revenge or a litigiousness or whatever it may be. It comes from a place of knowing. And when you can stand in that truth, you can make super good decisions for yourself and all of that emotion that you may have attached to different assets or whatever it may be just dissipates.
Karen:
And then if you do have to go into litigation, or if you're with a mediator or however you're choosing to move ahead, they have the best information and they have a clear client that they can best help you. And so that's why I love this approach to divorce, because it really does empower people to know the truth and make decisions based on it. Doesn't mean that you have to fight for every last dollar. It just means that you know what it is, and you get to decide what the compromise is.
Erin Levine:
Right. Absolutely. And that's the thing, you get to decide what a win is. And it might not be to fight for that extra $20 or $30 a month in child support that might not be worth it for your peace of mind. It just might not.
Catherine:
What I like about your process also is I always say, yeah, we need attorneys or mediators to help us in the process. Very few cases that you don't need some kind of touch point, but when you go through your process, it's when we need them and for how much time do we need them? And I like that you're able to streamline that process. I know that when we send somebody through our process and they have that financial clarity, yes, now they can go through your process and just connect with the other professionals as needed and then to a completion, in a doable way.
Erin Levine:
I don't want the lawyer to be the center of your case ever. They have a huge caseload. They have so many things that are going on in their lives. Only you know, what's best for you. You should have a lawyer there. Now my caveat of course is if you were in active litigation, having a lawyer on retainer in a full representation capacity is key if you can afford it and make it happen. But for 90% plus of the rest of the world, having a lawyer there when you need one is great, but they cannot be the center of your case. You need to be the center of your case. And so that's why as part of whether you're using our DIY, do it with you, or even do it for you packages that I really want people to start by thinking of their strategy, which might change and putting some really good ground rules in place, if possible. Can I expand a little bit on that?
Erin Levine:
So, I think the conversation around ground rules is really, really tough, especially if one of you have been thinking about divorce forever, and then finally said, I want a divorce. And the other spouse, it's really new to you, like you're just learning about the divorce. It kind of already starts feeling really unfair. And so having that ground rules conversation is really tricky. And sometimes it might not happen right on day one. But if you can at some point sit down, whether it's talking to your spouse directly, talking to your spouse with a third party, like a therapist or a religious leader, or maybe even texts or email if that feels more appropriate, but being able to say, hey, look, I know this is not ideal. I know neither one of us are happy that we are leaving this marriage, but ultimately this is what is going to happen.
Erin Levine:
And so let's talk about what we want this divorce to look like. Do we agree that we will do whatever it takes to stay out of court? Do we agree that we are going to put our kids first? Do we agree that we together will talk to our kids about the divorce? Do we agree that we are going to be open and transparent about sharing finances and coming up with an agreement that works for us versus what the judge tells us is in our best interests? The best thing that happens is you come out of that conversation with some real ground rules that you can always go back to. You could always remind your spouse. Look, I know you hate me right now, I know you're mad at me, but remember, we both believe that the best thing to do is to keep the money with us as opposed to lawyers.
Erin Levine:
But if that conversation doesn't go that well, then at least you've learned more about what your divorce might look like. If your spouse says, you know what, screw you, I'm taking you to court, you're going down, which is the most extreme, but let's just say that happens because I'm sure it happens quite a bit, then you know, okay, I needed to get my ducks in a row. This is not going to be easy. Maybe using the DIY at Hello Divorce is not going to meet my needs. Maybe I need to talk to a lawyer. And at that point we have tons of resources on Hello Divorce that can help you choose the best legal help for you, the best financial help for you as well. So when you're thinking about DIY or you're thinking about how am I going to do this divorce? I always think it's a great idea to start with that initial conversation.
Catherine:
Well, those ground rules and those questions you ask, whether it comes out to be a good conversation or not, it's a realistic conversation. And what I see it as doing, bringing to the forefront of what some possible problems could be. So you're starting off with not a filing of I'm suing you, you're suing me. You're starting off with listen, we're going to agree to put the kids first. And even though you might be saying, shit, he's not going to put the kids first, he never put the kids first, but at least you're putting it out there. You're both saying we're going to agree to that. So you can have all those negative feelings going on in your mind, but you're actually agreeing to at least acknowledge that these issues are coming up. We see a lot in our platform and we provide that unbiased space to share financial data.
Catherine:
A lot of stuff happens in there. They're saying, I'm not giving you that data because he's not letting me have my kids for the weekend. So I'm not giving that data. You see a lot of this playing with the information, but at least I always feel like it's healthy because we give them that time to kind of blow off that steam rather than going to an attorney to start and say, I want to get them for everything that they have, I'm going after everything, when you don't even really know what everything is. So then they can go and do a DYI because they have all of this information and they blew off some of that steam and they're aware of that. So yeah, I think it's a great option and a much healthier option.
Erin Levine:
Yeah, absolutely. And not all the ground rules have to be really stressful and big questions. It could be as simple as one of us is going to have to carry this forward and do a lot of the paperwork or the heavy lifting, which one of us is better at doing that, which one's more committed to following through on things like that? And so it could be simple and other things like how are we going to communicate? When are we going to communicate about divorce-related issues? Because I don't know about you, but I don't want this divorce to take over my life. It's already a really big deal. So can we say that when we're with the kids and we're having dinner or whatever situation it is that we're not going to chat about divorce. We're going to leave that for X time or X day. But that can be really helpful too.
Karen:
Yeah. I love that. Love that so much. So last tip here, processing a divorce online. Am I frozen?
Catherine:
You're back.
Karen:
Okay. Erin, processing a divorce online can seem daunting to some individuals. How does Hello Divorce help their clients feel safe, secure and well-represented?
Erin Levine:
Well, part of what we do is really provide clarity, transparency into the process and a clear roadmap from how to get from point A to point B. So instead of using the legal terms or showing you the legal forms, we are explaining to you along the way, we are giving you questionnaires that ask questions in plain English that you can understand so that you're actually not even seeing the forms until they've already been populated. And you have gone through the analysis. So that's a little bit confusing and that it sounds like it's a long time between filling out the questionnaire and getting the forms. You actually get them instantaneously as soon as you're done, but not until you've already gone through the questionnaire and the process. The other thing that we really do is make ourselves available. We understand that software is super helpful.
Erin Levine:
Technology is incredibly amazing and we lack that big time in the legal profession. And so to have that available to consumers, people love that, but divorce is major. Major on a emotional, financial, and legal level. And so we make ourselves available to help, whether that's asking questions on our chat bot, if you're a DIY pro member above, you always have a divorce manager that you know you can go to and ask questions and connect with. And then also having lawyers and mediators available when necessary or when you think it will be helpful. We have loads of resources breaking down really big concepts into smaller, more digestible downloads. Everything from a list of all the settlement terms that you should consider negotiating to templates for co-parenting plans and a divorce worksheet to get yourself organized and make sure you're not missing anything when you ultimately go to negotiate that final agreement.
Erin Levine:
The other thing that we do is break divorce down into three steps. So the court might say there's a hundred steps or your lawyer might not have even organized the divorce into steps. But what we've done is we've broken it into three steps designed to help not just get through the legal process as quickly and easily as possible, but also to help with your morale and to help you feel like you're making progress. So step one and step two, really have to do with filing the divorce paperwork, especially if you're in a state with a waiting period, because we want you to get that waiting period going and getting your financials out. If you've been able to do those two things, then you're two-thirds done. You can look at your spouse and say, hey, we're getting close to the finish line.
Erin Levine:
And you have been able to cooperate to do what many believe is the hardest part. The last step is coming to an agreement and getting that agreement down in paper to file it with the court. And by the time people get to step three, it doesn't feel quite as emotional or scary. They've been able to get the resources that they need from the site. They've been able to use our software and get comfortable with it. So they're really set up to get through that final step and on with their life. So we're always changing, iterating on our product based on the data that we get from thousands and thousands of users, which is exciting too because we can then take that data and use it to our advantage to create an even better product for our consumer, our clients.
Karen:
That's fantastic.
Catherine:
Awesome.
Karen:
I'm inspired to say the least. So Erin, how can our listeners and viewers find you at Hello Divorce? I think it's fairly obvious, but it's good to just put it out there just in case it's not.
Erin Levine:
Yeah. So we're at hellodivorce.com. Our handle is @HelloDivorce. I would encourage anyone who's feeling like they need some extra motivation, community or tips to follow us on Instagram @HelloDivorce. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter. My name is Erin Levine, L-E-V-I-N-E.
Karen:
This concludes our conversation with Erin Levine on DIY Divorce. We really valued our conversation with Erin and look forward to more conversations in the future. If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe and leave a review. We love to hear your feedback!
On the newest episode of We Chat Divorce we’re speaking with Marianna Goldenberg, the Founder and CEO of Curo Wealth Management in Langhorne, PA. Marianna is a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CDFA®). Marianna was just eighteen years old when she left behind the oppression and dangers of living in the Soviet Union, with a mere fifty dollars in her hand. Seeking a better life and a safe place to rebuild where opportunity was the reward for integrity and ambition, she and her immediate family left everything and everyone they knew in Russia for a fresh start in Pennsylvania. Hard work, big dreams, and an undeniable determination to succeed led Marianna to UPenn’s Wharton School of Business. At Wharton she earned degrees in mathematics and finance, thus kick-starting the financial career she is so passionate about today.
Learn More >> https://www.curowm.com/
Connect with Marianna Goldenberg on LinkedIn >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariannagoldenberg
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Shanahan, Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Shanahan and Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
Karen Chellew: Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Catherine and I are happy to welcome Marianna Goldenberg, CDFA®, to our podcast today. In this episode, we're going to discuss five critical considerations when dividing executive compensation in divorce. But, first, let me take a couple minutes to introduce Marianna. With thirty years of experience, Marianna is founder and CEO of Curo Wealth Management. Curo Wealth Management is a financial planning firm located in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Curo in Latin means to take care, and this is exactly what they do for a select group of families, women, and busy executives. When it comes to her clients, Marianna takes care of everything relating to their finances. She loves teaching and empowering people to make important decisions for their financial future, helping to set them off on a better path than where they started. Marianna especially loves it when they bring their kids into the conversation so that they can learn, too, and she can help them save for their futures. Welcome, Marianna.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Catherine. Delighted to be part of your podcast today.
Catherine Shanah...: Oh, we're so happy to have you. And boy, oh, boy, could we go on and on about this conversation because I don't think that there's a day that goes by that I don't get frustrated of what people overlook when it comes to executive compensation, so this will be a great conversation for people listening. So thanks for coming on board.
Marianna Golden...: Of course.
Catherine Shanah...: You are a wealth of knowledge and often a resource I go to when we're doing our financial portraits to get some more input from you because you really are an expert when it comes to executive compensation.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you.
Catherine Shanah...: It's my pleasure.
Karen Chellew: I completely agree. What would we do without Marianna some days?
Catherine Shanah...: The only thing I think was missing from your intro there, which was a nice long intro, Karen, thank you for that, was when you said, "She looks after families and teaching children." Where are the dogs? Marianna's always including her dog in something.
Marianna Golden...: Absolutely.
Karen Chellew: Lola.
Marianna Golden...: It's a big part of our firm. The board of stress management.
Catherine Shanah...: Oh, yeah. So let's jump into this, five things to consider. I know there's more than that, and we'll tackle five of them today. This is just such a topic that people are afraid of, their attorneys steer away from sometimes, and the individuals, the non-employees, in particular, and even the employees themselves sometimes, a little bit of it is over their heads on what's considered marital and what's not considered marital. So what's the first thing somebody should consider?
Marianna Golden...: That's a great question, Catherine. What's really important to understand is, these days, a lot of companies change the way they reward their employees. They used to have lifetime pensions or cash bonuses, but the employers really tried to tie the success of the company to the compensation that they leave to their employees. Part of that is something that's called long-term incentives or executive compensation, and it's a really involved and very important concept. A lot of times, even the employees themselves don't understand how it works. Then you put divorce on top of that, and you have parties that are not privy to that, and it becomes a very complex issue that we always come across during the divorce and distribution of assets.
There are various kinds of long-term care incentive or executive compensation, and the most common ones are restricted stock units, performance stock units, stock options, which are then divided into qualified and non-qualified, and restricted stock units or RSUs for short. Those are the kinds of executive compensation that we normally see.
Catherine Shanah...: And how do you know if your spouse has that?
Marianna Golden...: That's a great question. A lot of times, it's really overlooked because, as part of discovery, attorneys usually ask for tax returns or other documents that don't include this particular type of compensation. Really, if someone works for especially publicly-traded companies and they are of a senior management position, chances are a part of their compensation is executive comp or LTI. The best way to determine if someone has one is obviously to ask, but not everybody is going to be forthcoming in sharing that information. The best way I've found to understand if someone has this type of compensation is ask for a few documents. The first one is a total compensation package, and it's really a printout that the employee gets every year that shows everything that they receive as part of their overall compensation.
The second one is to request their 1231 pay stub, and the reason I say 1231 is because different companies have different timing of when their executive compensation gets paid. Some do it in the beginning of the year, some do it in the middle, some do it quarterly, so it's really important. If you request 1231 pay stub, it will show up on that pay stub. It will not show up on W-2. It will not show on tax returns. So those are usually the two main documents that are requested, and if you just have those, you won't know. The other thing that's important, too, is to Google. We all know you can get any answer in Google these days. So part of discovery should be Googling the compensation for the company, and chances are you'll find out a lot about the plans by doing that in conjunction with the rest that I just mentioned.
Catherine Shanah...: I want to just expand a little bit on that 1031, I mean, 1231 pay stub or pay statement or however you want to reference it. So often, Karen and I, when we're putting together the financial portraits for individuals, will hear, "No, I got this pay stub or I got that pay stub," and, "No, they said that we can look at a W-2 with it," or, "What's the big deal? I have this quarter's pay stub." It really is a big deal to get that last year-end statement. There's a lot of valuable information in there, you're saying.
Marianna Golden...: Yep. There is additional bonus that was paid that wasn't outlined before this new project or patent or some kind of additional recognition, all going to show up there. It's such a great source for discovering compensation that wasn't disclosed.
Karen Chellew: And I'm going just going to ask because this is really not my area of expertise, except I'm in the document collection piece a lot. You're identifying the existence of the executive compensation because I know a lot of the other party or the spouse with the executive compensation will say, "Well, it exists. Yes, I agree with that, and here is this spreadsheet defining what the it is." So, to your point, that compensation package is important as to how it plays out. I just wanted to make the differentiation there from the existence of it to the valuation of it that's two different perspectives.
Marianna Golden...: So true, Karen, and it's a really valid point because a lot of people do just what you said, spreadsheets, and this is not a valid document from the company. Something that's called a stock or options ledger, which is the official document from the company, will identify... Once we know there is an existence of the executive compensation, it will be an official record that will identify what particular compensation we're talking about, all the particulars, the dates that they were awarded, the dates that they become available to the employee, and the taxes that will be taken. So it's really a wealth of information as well.
Catherine Shanah...: Can you compare that to a screenshot of someone logging into their net benefits statement on the computer? Is that the actual ledger? Because, often, when we're... Karen, when you're collecting the documents, you'll see the screenshot or someone just logging into their net benefits on a certain date, and it'll show what's vested, what's not vested. Is that the same thing as asking for the company's ledger?
Marianna Golden...: Depends on the screen and depends on the company, but I would say this is a good beginning because in order to be really fully disclosed, right, say, the screenshot is terrific. The other thing that's important is something that's called the summary plan description or SPD because that's going to really spell out the ins and outs of the specific plan. Also, if there are any historical vesting or exercise that happened before, we need those exercise invoice to determine if the actual shares were sold or kept after the vesting. So it'll show us if that happened, when it happened, what was the cost basis of those shares and the taxes withheld. The historical part of that, during marriage, during separation, and then the future are all important parts for the overall picture.
Karen Chellew: I-
Catherine Shanah...: That's great.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. To your point there, too, Marianna, where you said that's a good beginning, I think sometimes it can stop there. As they're collecting documents, they get a couple pieces of paper and say, "Oh, this is a good beginning," whether it's the mediator or the attorney or whoever they're working with, and they assume that as they get closer to the agreement or to the trial or the master's conference or wherever they're going to be hashing out the logistics... No one has gone back to pull that ahead to get all the information. So I know when I'm working with clients, I'm saying, "Let's just get this out of the gate. It's easy to get. If you're getting one thing, you might as well get all of it," so that everybody has that fund of information from which to work. I think that's so important because, by the end of it, if you're not staying on top of it to collect all the relevant information, you've got a lot of information to collect and things get easily overlooked when you're trying to hash out a settlement.
Marianna Golden...: I totally agree. I really believe in saying, "You don't know what you don't know." So in order to have the good understanding, you have to have all the documents and make the conclusions. But then you have the facts. That's what you need.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: Yes. And it's much easier to get those facts, to Karen's point, when you're in the process of collecting and you're not getting fatigued by the whole process and just over it. By the time that you really need the facts, you just don't want ... You want to be done with it. So I totally agree with that. What's the next tip, number two, for you to consider?
Marianna Golden...: So we just discussed how do you even know someone has that particular asset. The second one, once you determine if someone does have the executive compensation plan, you really have to understand what it is that you're looking at. As I mentioned, there is various types of executive compensation stock options, restricted stock units, performance stock units, long-term deferred comp. The important thing is to make sure you get a summary plan description for each document and really outline what it is that you're dealing with. If it's stock options, are they incentive stock options or they're non-qualified stock options? What are the terms? When do they vest? When you exercise, do you hold the stock or do you sell the stock?
Each award is very different. And I see it a lot in the property settlement agreements where they use the word vested or exercise for the wrong time of the executive plan, so you really want to make sure if it's options, they're vesting and they're exercised. If these are restricted stock units you're talking about, they cannot be exercised. They can only vest, and you have no control with when, where with the stock options, you do have control when you can exercise. So it's very different terminology that gets often mixed up between different awards. So that's-
Catherine Shanah...: Which seems like an easy thing, right? But now you've signed your agreement and you have to make sure that you're able to execute your agreement. So if the language is not properly written, how does that happen? So these are really good points, and I know if you're listening to this podcast right now, your head is probably doing a whole spin-around because you've mentioned a lot of big words like vesting and non-qualified and qualified. So it's really important, I'm hearing you say, to get that summary plan description so that you do not have to be a genius with this but you have to be able to have the document to actually outline what it is that you're doing with it.
Marianna Golden...: That's exactly right because I often see the document that spells something out about the plan, something like let's divide this particular asset in half or the employee can do this or that, and it's really important to know that if your legal document says that you can do something but the document that the plan is based on doesn't allow for it, you can't do anything. The divorce document becomes obsolete if the plan document doesn't allow for a certain transaction. If you don't have the summary plan description that you incorporate into your divorce document, it's not going to work. It's just useless piece of paper at that point, and guess what? You have to go back and negotiate and pay additional fees to get it resolved.
Karen Chellew: That's such a good point, Marianna. I know when we're compiling the MDS portrait for our clients and they have executive compensation, we'll put that in the table of recommendations and considerations. We'll say, "This is what you have, this is what you need, and this is who can help you," because a lot of attorneys frankly aren't financially trained. Of course, it takes a village. It takes a team when getting through any kind of difficult challenges. So even if your attorney may not understand how the executive compensation works or all the nuances of it or the complexities of it, you can take that to your financial planner, just like Marianna, who can help you know how that plays out so that your attorney has the information he or she needs then to get that agreement rock solid for you.
Marianna Golden...: It's so true. I often work with couples where they do have their financial planners but these particular people are not specialized in the executive compensation. So they might say this is what they suggest, but it's not going to be really useful if that's not their specialty. I would highly recommend to talk to your financial professionals and see do you work with executive compensation, do you understand how it works, do you have specific companies and plans that you are really familiar with because although it's a common asset, but each plan might has its own specifics and you need to know those specifics.
Catherine Shanah...: And let me piggyback off of what you were saying, Karen, because let's take a look at the downside to all of this, I guess. So let's just say I'm sitting here and I have this agreement and I'm listening to you guys speak and I say, "Okay, great, my language isn't saying what Karen just said." Now, Marianna, you're my financial planner and I bring you my agreement. Are you going to force me to go back to my ex-spouse to get this plan description because it was never requested before? How are you going to help me if I don't have that information?
Marianna Golden...: That's a really unknown question. It really is because I did have situations where someone comes with a document and says, "Can you help me execute the terms?" It's really hard when the other spouse isn't open or amicable. It's really hard to put it for something that's not spelled out. So it might be case where you need to back and have the agreement rewritten if the other side is not cooperating with the terms. I often recommend for people even to have a separate agreement which is not part of the overall MSA that states how to exactly go about and execute the terms of the executive compensation.
Also, a lot of times... And we might talk about it more. A lot of times, you have to understand that the executive compensation is only an asset when it becomes vested. So doing something beforehand, the employee even doesn't own that asset until it's vested, so it might take a couple years before it becomes a real asset. But then the considerations have to be made. Is it an asset subject to support, or is it an asset subject to equitable distribution? You can't double-dip, so that really has to be outlined as well in the property settlement agreement. So it really-
Catherine Shanah...: Oh, boy, do we need to do a... We need another podcast just on that. I know that if you're listening, you might write in and give us some questions on that, and I'm sure Marianna will come back because that's such an important realization to make when you're negotiating. A lot of people don't really want to sit back in that seat and say no. They want to double-dip and the other party doesn't. And to round out what we just said a second ago, if you're listening, whether you're the employee spouse or the non-employee spouse, if you do not want to communicate after the fact, which is in most cases, make sure you give the documentation that's needed now and make sure you ask for the documentation needed now so that you can ensure that the proper language is in your agreement or that you have another agreement, which I love that idea, so that you do not have to communicate on these issues moving forward. Great point there.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Karen Chellew: And I'm just going to give a little case, I guess, summary of something that we experienced not too long ago, where the couple had an agreement and, for whatever reason, it said the spouse was supposed to give the other spouse a copy of the W-2. So that didn't happen, but the pay stub what was needed, Marianna, to your point.
Marianna Golden...: Yes. Yes.
Karen Chellew: And they only got the W-2. But the agreement didn't call for the W-2. I mean, the agreement did not call for the pay stub. It only called for the W-2. So that became a real issue because, now, the spouse was without the proper documentation for her accountant to work with.
Marianna Golden...: Yep. And that's the thing. You need to know what to ask for because if you don't know what you don't know, the agreement will not be complete and filed properly.
Catherine Shanah...: I totally agree. Can you all hear me? I thought I lost my audio there.
Karen Chellew: Yes.
Catherine Shanah...: Okay, great.
Marianna Golden...: Nope.
Catherine Shanah...: Sorry for the little delay.
Karen Chellew: Can you hear me, by the way?
Catherine Shanah...: A little low.
Karen Chellew: Okay.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Catherine Shanah...: That's a little sidebar there if you're listening to us. It's technical day on Monday, right? So that brings us to your third consideration, which is really, really important, and, boy, I could go on forever about this one. A lot of times, you have an agreement written up or you're negotiating and your attorney or your mediator, they're leading that negotiation and they don't even realize if these awards are transferrable or even dividable. So how do you suggest somebody considers that?
Marianna Golden...: Great question. I do see it quite a bit, where attorneys state in the property settlement agreement that here is options or issues or what have you, and they should be divided 50/50, 60/40, whatever that might be. As I said before, if the summary plan description or plan document does not allow for transferability, which is probably 90% of the time, you can't divide this. It doesn't matter what your document says. So the first thing, what's really important, is to, a., define what you're trying to divide. Don't just say stock option, which is a generic term. Put the stock options for restricted stock units. Attach the ledger that we discussed, which clearly indicates the numbers, what's the grant number, what's the date of the grant, the vesting schedule, and so forth so you have the exhibit outlining that. Then that exhibit should, and we didn't talk about it yet, but that should state what part of those options or issues are marital property and what are not. Because the ledger might show and will show all of them, you have to identify specific lots that are subject to division.
Then, if you understand the plan document after you request it, you will know that it has to be done on the specific terms in order to be divided. So, as we mentioned, if they are non-transferrable, the only way you can give the non-employee spouse their portion is by non-employee spouse giving a written authorization to their ex-spouse of the action they wanted to complete. Is it an action of exercising their option after vesting? Do they want to keep the stock after they exercise? Do they want the employee spouse sell the stock and send them the proceeds and how much tax to withhold? So there is a lot of moving parts. They all make sense once you do it once, and they're a specific order. But that's the only way pretty much with few exceptions that transferability has to take place, and it has to be outlined very specifically in the document, which I, again, suggest to be a separate document aside from the property settlement agreement. Is that what you're asking?
Catherine Shanah...: Boy. Again, we're throwing out a lot of terms. I know if you're listening to this and your head's spinning again, that's a lot to consider, right?
Marianna Golden...: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: So, again, we're going to go back to getting the documentation so you can absorb it all a little bit at a time, not when you're forced to go to a settlement hearing and not when you're forced to negotiate. If you can digest this information beforehand, you'll make smart decisions. So, really, the transferability and the division, because there's other things to consider and some of that money was taxed already, so now you don't want to be told that it's going to be taxed again, right? So it depends on the reward that's given. There's so much to consider.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah, it's a very complex asset, if you will, but it could be used as a very rewarding asset if you know what you're doing because it's easily overlooked but it's also easily used improperly. Sometimes, it's by design. Sometimes, it's just because someone doesn't know or understand how it works. Even people that work for a company, they're busy executives. They keep running and building their corporate career, and they don't have, often, time to slow down and understand how it works. So they might not themselves understand what's involved, let alone someone who's not involved in the company.
Catherine Shanah...: That's a really good point because often everyone takes the position that my spouse is lying to me about this or they're hiding this from me, and maybe we can look at it from a different point of view saying maybe they just don't understand it themselves, right? So, again, it goes back to really requiring the documentation so that everybody's working uniformly on the same information. Also, yes, this is such a complex asset, but, remember, a lot of wealth today was built off of this asset, so don't be afraid of it. Don't walk away from it and choose your home or something else because it's an easier solution. Take the time to understand what's on the table here before you make that decision.
Marianna Golden...: And if you don't understand, work with professionals. That's really important because, just like you wouldn't want to make your healthcare decisions without going to different specialists and getting second opinions and really making an informative decision, it's the same thing in place here. If you don't know, ask. If you're not sure whoever you ask is giving you information that you can easily understand and process, go somewhere else. It's much easier and plus the fact that it's time-effective to do it all up-front than deal with it at the end.
One of the reasons I became a CDFA fifty years ago was because someone came to me with this specific situation, where they gave up their rights to the executive compensation because it was something difficult and something they couldn't quite understand and decided to take their home as an asset and gave up the executive compensation. Guess what happened? 2007, 2008, when real estate market collapsed, they had an asset that they thought worth a lot of money that was not liquid. They couldn't refinance because they didn't have the income to get approved for a refinancing, and they couldn't really sell it because the prices dropped significantly. So they didn't have choices, and you always want to be in control of your financial situation. The only way you can, if you look at all the choices and then you make a decision that's based on data and your understanding, not because somebody said so.
Catherine Shanah...: Exactly. If you ask a question once to your advisor... Marianna knows this for a fact. I must've asked 15 times the same question, just so I had complete understanding of something, and that's okay. That's really okay.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Karen Chellew: From the perspective of choosing your battles, this is one of them where you definitely want to lean in and make sure you have all of the documentation necessary so that you can make an informed decision. It is so important because it could be the difference of 100, 200, 300,000 dollars. It's to that level. I know a lot of people have a budget when it comes to divorce and they can only spend so much money, and I completely get that, and we respect that. But this is one of those assets that you definitely want to make sure you have the information and documentation you need to make that really good decision for yourself.
Marianna Golden...: So true. So true. And another important consideration for that, if you already listened to us and you've done all the work and you've made the right decision, it's the follow-up or follow-through that I often see people overlook because once the proper documents are executed, then somebody actually needs to follow up and put them into work. If you are working with the incentive compensation that is going to stand over a number of years and you already moved on with your life, it's hard to remember, yes, you have to go back every year, and not only do you have to make sure that you give your ex-spouse instructions how to execute the share that you were rewarded, because it's done on the annual basis, you also have to make sure that the taxes or tax consequences are addressed, and that's on the annual basis as well. So who wants to be attached by the hip every year, which is true, but, also, if there is lots of money, like Karen said, involved, perhaps that's something you want to do.
Catherine Shanah...: Well, that's one thing I love about you and your practice. You are diligent and almost sometimes probably a thorn in my side because you follow up so much on these kind of things, right? That's so important because time goes so quickly. Even myself personally, I can't believe I was divorced 11 years ago, I think it is, 11 years ago, or 10 year. You probably can't believe it, right? It goes so fast with the blink of an eye. So you can very easily let that vesting date or let that sales, if you had just sold the shares or whatever, and you're not following it... So if you don't have a good financial planner who's working on your team to keep you in line with this, then you can lose out. So, yes, I do think that's a great interview question when picking a financial planner. What is their expertise in this field, and how do you help me stay in line with this? Those are really good questions, and I know you really cover that quite well.
Karen Chellew: Very true. Great question.
Catherine Shanah...: So what is the timing and the tax consequences? I know that's another consideration and maybe the fifth consideration for handling these types of complex issues.
Marianna Golden...: And yet another great question. So it's really important to go back to the beginning where we said, in 90% of the cases, the executive compensation is owned by the employee and it's not transferrable. What that means, that that employee will have to go through the steps of exercising or selling the asset or vesting, if it's related to restricted stock units. Any of those transactions mean the next step is taxes because when you are awarded executive compensation, they're not taxed at the time of the reward. They're taxed at the time of vesting when it's related to RSUs or at times of exercise as related to stock options. When those two events happen, that's when that taxation occurs.
A lot of times, companies change their rules. They will do the mandatory tax withholdings on your behalf. When I say mandatory, that means federal tax, state tax, local tax, FICA, Medicare tax, Social Security tax. So all that is subtracted before the employee gets their net check. Some companies allow for the employee to increase their federal withholding if they already know they're in a higher tax bracket. Some companies are going to do it the same across the board. For example, I work with a lot of J&J employees. They're across the board. Federal withholdings is 22%. You can't increase it, you can't make it lower, so that's what it is. You have to remember that when you get that check, it's already net of taxes.
Now, if they attached a 22% on the exercise or vesting, it's not necessarily means that what you pay at the end of the year or in the beginning of the following year when you do your taxes. If you are in a lower effective tax bracket, that means you're going to get some of the tax back when you file your taxes. If you're in a higher effective tax bracket, you're going to have to pay more. That's where the confusion comes in. The employee got taxed. They give the net proceeds to their ex-spouse, but it's on them to pay the tax. So the reconciliation has to be made every year where both parties should have their tax return side by side and they should see, okay, well, if the employee's spouse had paid 22% federal withholding but their actual effective tax rate or how much they've paid on their tax return is only 20%, they owe the difference of extra tax up-front to their non-employee spouse.
I know it's really confusing, and I explain it to my clients every year, and I have to repeat it again. But it's so important because most people don't follow through with this. On the flip side, if the employee spouse paid 22% withholding but they are actually in the 35% effective tax rate because of other compensation or other income sources, the non-employee spouse now owes money to them. So some people, when they reconcile it, they sometimes split money in escrow so there is not much going back and forth. But it has to be all spelled out in the document because if it's not, who's going to enforce it?
Catherine Shanah...: Exactly. And, really, it's important to use your own independent accountant to reconcile this from your spouse's accountant because numbers could be interpreted differently.
Marianna Golden...: Yep. I've heard this phrase once and I really liked it. It made a lot of sense to me. Everybody's entitled their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. So-
Catherine Shanah...: I like that.
Marianna Golden...: I really love it. So you're absolutely correct. Independent accountants because here's the fact, that's how you reconcile it. If you use the same accountant, in my opinion, it's a conflict of interest.
Catherine Shanah...: And, in my opinion, don't be afraid that you might potentially owe back your spouse money because if your spouse is having that much more income that it's pushing their bracket up, it might be a reason for a support modification.
Marianna Golden...: That is true.
Catherine Shanah...: So they may not even ask you for that.
Marianna Golden...: Very true.
Karen Chellew: Good point. Good point. Well, this concludes our episode on five critical considerations when dividing executive compensation in divorce. Thank you, Marianna, for a great conversation.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you, ladies, for having me. It's something that fascinates me. The more complex it is, the more excited I get. So I hope that I was able to communicate it properly so to give, at least, people a sense of if you don't understand, ask. You don't know what you don't know. So I hope I was able to convey that.
Catherine Shanah...: And before we sign off, please tell us how our listeners can reach you.
Marianna Golden...: Great question. So the best way to reach us is to go to our website. It's www.curowm.com, and Curo is spelt C-U-R-O. WM stands for Wealth Management. So it's www.curowm.com. Our email address, our phone number, all our social media platforms are there. So we'd be more than happy to hear from our listeners.
Karen Chellew: Thank you.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you.
Karen Chellew: Okay. That's good.
Catherine Shanah...: Okay.
Karen Chellew: All right.
Catherine Shanah...: Oh my gosh. It's so much information, and it's so... I know it's just so scary for a lot of people. Even when we had a case and the financial planner gave the recommendation that our joint client just negotiate away the LTIs and the RSUs just to keep the home, I was like, "What?" Sometimes, I feel like some financial planners do that because they know they're not going to invest that money for a long time so there's no income for them. They're not making any money off this advice or what have you, and that's so annoying to me.
Marianna Golden...: It is so true. A lot of times, too, because they think it's complex, they don't understand it. They just want to give it away so they don't have to deal with it. It's really interesting because I had a case where they were dividing everything properly. I looked at the documents. Everything was properly executed. Then I said to both parties, because they were amicable, I said, "Look, it's really important for you guys to communicate and coordinate the timing of the exercise because the less taxes the employee will pay, the more it's going to go to your boss' pocket. Then that number will be higher, so it's in your best interest to communicate." What I suggested to do is, instead of exercising a lot in one year, split it over a three-year period. Their reaction was so interesting because the employee spouse said to me, "How come my advisor never suggested that? That makes all the sense in the world." I go, "Well, chances are he doesn't understand how it works."
Catherine Shanah...: Right.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: Right.
Karen Chellew: I don't think it's that unusual, and I think, from my experience, because I'm typically over in the attorney's office with the clients, they're saying, "Well, we got this piece of paper from the other side, and so that's what we're using." That piece of paper can be completely missing a lot of documentation. It's routine that Catherine finds money that would've been just lost had we not dug in and said, "You really need this information to clarify the documentation that supports this data because that often is the missing piece."
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Catherine Shanah...: Well, how about the client that we actually went to you for some advice on as well, your input? That attorney tells client, "Just go ahead and sell your RSUs and pay off your marital debt," and he ends up selling the non-marital portion to pay off the marital debt.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Catherine Shanah...: Crazy. Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: So common.
Karen Chellew: So, Marianna, do you see often where an employee spouse will work with their employer to change their compensation during divorce so that it's not on the table? Sometimes, I get that question, well, whether it's support or ED. I know we can cover that in another podcast. But, often, the non-employee spouse will say, "Well, can they change their compensation package so that this doesn't exist anymore or so that they're compensated in a different way that they don't have to share this with me?"
Marianna Golden...: That's a good question. I feel that it would be really near impossible to do it for a publicly traded company. Obviously, if you're in a really high C-suite position, maybe. But, generally, you don't. This is how the company does this. They want to tie their performance with the compensation they give you, so they as well, your compensation. But I do believe that it can be easily structured if it's non-public, if it's a private company, and they still issue this form of communication. It's probably easily manipulated.
Karen Chellew: Especially if they have a close relationship with their employer. Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: Exactly.
Catherine Shanah...: Right. Right.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah.
Karen Chellew: Wow.
Marianna Golden...: And that's why we need history. We need to see the pattern. Because it was never done before, then we know something's up, and so historical data is important just as the future data.
Karen Chellew: Right. Okay.
Catherine Shanah...: There's definitely a great follow-up podcast to this.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. It's very complex. But it's complex for all parties involved, all professionals involved. It really takes a village to get to the bottom of a lot of these calculations and valuations. Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: A lot of times, knowing that's my area of expertise, the more complex, the better. I thrive on that. I would get a call from an attorney or a client who's not even a client say, "Hey, I was told you understand this. Here's the document. Can you just make sure we didn't miss anything, or can you interpret this for me?" So it's just a piece of information that they wanted to make sure that they're properly handling.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. Yeah. And-
Catherine Shanah...: That's great. Keep at it.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. All right.
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah. It's so needed. You got to keep this as your thing because-
Marianna Golden...: It's getting more and more popular.
Catherine Shanah...: Yes.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Marianna Golden...: More and more companies, instead of doing cash compensation, do the performance type compensation.
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah, because it's lowering their turnover. It's so hard now to get employees and keep-
Marianna Golden...: …
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah. Yep.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah, because you give someone something today which they can't touch or feel, but if they stay for three or five years, all of a sudden, it becomes quite a sizable asset.
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: All right. Well, we're going to have to chat again.
Marianna Golden...: Of course.
Catherine Shanah...: Thank you so much. This was great.
Marianna Golden...: Always a pleasure, ladies.
Catherine Shanah...: This is so good. You look fantastic. This is really good.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
On the newest episode of We Chat Divorce we’re speaking with Donna M. Cheswick. Donna has over 30 years of experience in the financial services industry. She is a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CDFA®) and a Certified QDRO Specialist (CQS). She is the owner of Cheswick Divorce Solutions LLC, located in Southwestern Pennsylvania, where she helps individuals, couples, and family law attorneys with all the financial complexities that arise during divorce to ensure the most financial advantageous settlement possible. Education is the backbone of her business. She frequently teaches workshops on a wide variety of topics relating to finance and divorce, as well as authors numerous articles for local/national print and online publications. Donna also is a trained divorce mediator and a collaborative financial neutral. She has also been drafting QDROs and other like orders for the last ten years.
Learn More >> http://cheswickdivorcesolutions.com/
Connect with Donna Cheswick on LinkedIn >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnacheswick/
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Shanahan, Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Shanahan and Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce, Catherine and I are so happy today to welcome Donna Cheswick, owner of Cheswick Divorce Solutions LLC. In this episode, we're going to discuss the nitty-gritty on issues with retirement plan division in divorce. But first, let me take a couple minutes to introduce Donna. Donna has over 30 years of experience in the financial services industry. She's a certified divorce financial analyst. You will also hear the term CDFA. She's also a certified QDRO specialist. That term is a CQS. You may have never heard that one. She is the owner of Cheswick Divorce Solutions located in southwestern Pennsylvania, where she helps individuals, couples, and family law attorneys with all the financial complexities that arise during divorce to ensure the most financial advantageous settlement possible.
Education is a backbone of her business and she frequently teaches workshops on a wide variety of topics relating to finance and divorce, as well as authors numerous articles for local national print and online publications. Donna also is a trained divorce mediator and a collaborative financial neutral. She's also been drafting QDROs and other like orders for the last 10 years. Welcome, Donna.
Donna:
Thank you so much. I'm glad to be with you both.
Catherine:
Oh, always love having a fellow CDFA here, which is how we met. So happy to have you here. And I'm really looking forward to getting to the nitty-gritty of retirement accounts with you. I know I'm burning with some questions and I'm sure Karen is as well.
Karen:
Absolutely. And you are a wealth of information to us and our clients. And we're so grateful that we have you on our team live. So Donna, let's just start out with how are retirement accounts split in divorce? Let's talk about that.
Donna:
Well, there are two main classifications as I'd call it of division. You have dividing employer retirement plans and then you have dividing IRAs and other types of qualified plans. And the employer plans require a special document. It's called a qualified domestic relations order. You'll hear the term QDRO or Q-DRO, depending on what part of the country you live in and they both mean the same thing. And that is needed to allow the employer to actually divide an employer plan to an alternate payee.
The other process is basically transfer incident to divorce. When you have say an IRA account, you just need special language in your marital settlement agreement detailing how that transfer is going to occur. Both of these methods are done as a tax-free transfer. Nobody's taking out money from their account, writing a check to their soon to be ex-spouse. Everything can be transferred in a tax-free transfer from one party to the other.
Catherine:
So let's give a couple of examples about that. So, an employer plan would be?
Donna:
PPG, Google, pensions, a municipality - anywhere where you are working for someone else.
Catherine:
But that would be a pension…I'm sorry, that would be a pension, a 401k.
Donna:
Yes.
Catherine:
A 403(b).
Donna:
Yes. 403(b).
Catherine:
Okay. And then the other plans that you're mentioning are just IRAs, Roth IRAs.
Donna:
Correct. Correct.
Karen:
I was just going to say how many times do we see IRAs and Roth IRAs designated in the marital settlement agreement that they need a QDRO? I see it more than I don't see it.
Donna:
They do not. Only employer plans require a QDRO. However, if you put language in your marital settlement agreement that says you're going to divide an IRA by a QDRO, many times the plan administrator will want one because you've put it in your marital settlement agreement because you have to send a copy of the marital settlement agreement along with some paperwork to that IRA custodian. So you need to be careful not to put language in that you don't need because then ultimately-
Karen:
Spending another $500…(laughter)
Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point because actually I never knew that. So I have an IRA. If you're listening, you have an IRA, your attorney just throws the language in there because they think they should throw the language in there, that plan administrator may require you to execute a QDRO, which is costly.
Donna:
Correct. Correct. Now you can put kind of roundabout language in there that says if the custodian or financial institution requires it, one will be you know what I mean. But if you say this plan will be divided by qualified domestic relations order, likely that plan is going to or that IRA custodian, they're going to be looking then for qualified domestic relations workers. You said you were going to provide one.
Karen:
Right. And they have to follow the order. They have to follow the marital settlement agreements. They don't have a lot of options.
Catherine:
I know you can say this, but Karen, you may recall this, but Donna it's the truth. And really, I wish I made this stuff up, but I don't. We had an attorney that charged a client a couple of hours because he did all this research to find out that her IRA did not need a QDRO.
Karen:
We're not sure what the research was either.
Catherine:
We asked for the research just out of curiosity, but we never received it. But she did receive the bill for it, which is upsetting. You also bring up something else when you mention the pensions meaning defined benefits or defined contributions like your 401k's, you must hear this just as we hear this. A lot of people feel like, well, my employer won't let you have that money. So that money is mine.
Donna:
That is not true. Even if the employer, because there are some plans, some employer plans that cannot be divided with the qualified domestic relations order. They're few and far between but that does not mean they are not marital property. And should be attributed, maybe one party is going to keep that asset, but the other party is not. But yeah, I hear that a lot of times too, my spouse says that's my pension not yours. That's not true. That's marital property. It doesn't matter that it's only in one party's name. If it occurred during the course of the marriage, all or some of it, because maybe there's a premarital component or post-separation component, it's marital.
Catherine:
Mmm-hmm.
Karen:
Yeah. And that means you have a marital interest in it. So while the one spouse or the other may technically own it, the other spouse has an interest when dividing the asset and when dividing the marital property. I think a lot of people are challenged with that concept. Yeah.
Catherine:
Yeah. When we talked about the details you mentioned the marital component and the non-marital component, but it's also really important, isn't it? To have details on what happens if one of the spouse dies before the QDRO is actually approved?
Donna:
Well, that's one reason why you don't want to delay getting these orders done because that's just one possibility that can happen. Now you can do post-death QDROs.
Catherine:
Oh.
Donna:
They can be divided post, not every plan, but any ERISA plan can be, but again, not 20 years from now when they've already distributed the assets, that's the problem that you run into. Say you have a 401k, the party dies, the qualified domestic relations order hasn't been processed. And the plan makes a distribution to whomever those beneficiaries are that the employee has on file and they send the money out. Then what?
Catherine:
Right.
Donna:
Then you may have to go to the estate of the deceased and a whole bunch of other legal issues that can arise.
Catherine:
What happens if you get divorced and there is supposed to be a QDRO and neither party initiate or follows up on the QDRO being processed because they're in their 50s, let's say or 40s and now they want to retire. QDRO was never initiated. Will the company know that one is required?
Donna:
Well, the company doesn't know anything until they're told, right. If the company does not know unless they have that legal document, they may not know. But one can still be prepared. Because I get a lot of attorneys come to me, more recently one from 10 years ago. Nothing was ever prepared and it was a pension and wife or ex-wife knew ex-husband was going to be retiring soon. She calls the company and asks, when am I going to start getting my pension? Well, what did the company tell her? We have no paperwork on file, which they didn't. Nobody did a qualified domestic relations order. I mean you can lose benefits if you…
Karen:
And the surviving spouse could have been changed by then as well.
Donna:
Yes. That's another problem. The party could go into pay status and pick single life expectancy. Meaning it's only going to pay out on that employee's lifetime. God forbid if that employee dies an early death, there's no, even if you get a QDRO submitted, the former spouse payment will die when the employee spouse dies. And that could be problematic.
Catherine:
What if the ex-spouse remarried in that scenario?
Donna:
Pardon?
Catherine:
What if the ex-spouse remarried in that ten-year period but the attorney didn't call you.
Donna:
Well, depends on the plan. But what happens is they may have chosen a joint and survivor benefit with a new spouse. Now that's different while they're living than when they die. Right. So as long as the employee spouse is living, there can still be a division. The court order is submitted for a former spouse, but potentially if that employee spouse dies and they were able to name a second spouse that could be problematic.
Every plan is different, there's different rules. You definitely want check that information out. But I would encourage people do not wait to get these legal documents prepared. They should be done. Actually, they should be done at the point when you're signing your marital settlement agreement in a perfect world or very shortly after the divorce decree.
Karen:
Right. And even asking your council or your attorney to take the steps, to notify the plan administrator that a divorce is pending because usually that'll put a hold on the account until they have further instruction. I know it's only temporary but sometimes that will create a lockdown of sorts until the divorce is completed, especially in these really long divorce scenarios. Yeah, that can be helpful too.
Donna:
Not all plans that will. So be aware. And sometimes it's only for 18 months. So five years goes by, there's no hold put on after.
Karen:
Right. Right.
Catherine:
You've brought up something really great. Of course, I run with this kind of information. I love the client who just called the company where she knew her husband worked and said, "Hey, when is my pension kicking in?" Because that can also bring up an undisclosed asset. So if they say we don't have any information, I think it's really easy for people to overlook because they don't ask about it. And because there aren't as many anymore it's just something that's overlooked, but why not? If you're out there and you know that your ex spouse is retiring and you don't have a pension, but you think they do call the company. I love that, Donna. And say, "Hey, can I receive my benefits?"
Donna:
Well, but the problem is if it's not been addressed in the marital settlement agreement, there may be no award to the former spouse because depending on the language in the marital settlement agreement, it may have only addressed certain retirement accounts that were disclosed and said the other party keeps all other retirement accounts in their name.
So if you know your spouse has worked for a company for at least five years, even if it was years ago, you should be checking if there's any type of pension or 401k type benefits that are kind of out there. The pensions are more problematic. You're right. Because you don't get a statement in the mail every quarter like you do with your 401k. You might get one annually if you're lucky and…
Catherine:
And now they're digital a lot. So you don't even see them if you don't have access to that information. And that brings me to a really good thing. Why is it so important to get actual account statements?
Donna:
Oh, that's a huge issue. So you want to get a complete copy of any type of retirement statements, not just a screen print, where a lot of people will go in they'll just print out, "Hey, today, my 401k is worth X." Well, that's good to know and you don't just want the first page of the statement because there's a lot of data that is forthcoming in page two, three, four, five and six that may not be showing on page one.
Donna:
You need to know if the participant's spouse, that's the employee's spouse is vested. If it's a 401k plan, so all of those dollars that are showing belong to the employee? Obviously the employee's contributions are always theirs, no matter what, but if there's some type of match from the employer, some employers have what's called a vesting schedule. Maybe they only give them 20% a year of that dollar that they're matching.
They have to work there for a period of time to get that whole amount. Loans are another big issue. Most account statements do not show if there's a loan on page one, that would be important to know. The other thing that's important to know is the different buckets of money. Most people are familiar with pre-tax, you put a dollar into your 401k. You're not paying any tax on it. But some folks worked for a prior employer, maybe they rolled in their old 401k into their current employer’s plan. That's a different bucket of money.
The employer has to segment that separately. Maybe their after tax contributions like a Roth 401k. A dollar and a Roth is not equal to a dollar in the kind of traditional bucket. So all of those things show up later on in the statement and I hate to even bring this up but it happens. With the technology age, it's real easy to sort of forge a screen print and manipulate it to be something that it is not. And so it's harder to forge a 12-page account statement. But you want that full account statement. There's data on there that you're going to need to see.
Catherine:
Oh, amen to all that. We have clients saying, why is it so important to get the whole statement? Here's the value. And for everything that you just mentioned, page three and four are missing, it's one of 12, okay, we want every page in one of 12, and then if it's not there we say why it's not there. But yes, gosh, if you're listening so important to have the statements.
Karen:
Mmm-hmm. It is. And you touched on the fact that a lot of people have prior employers with 401k accounts still remaining there. We run into that a lot and then they get to their divorce and now there's one, undisclosed 401k accounts and two, they're missing or they're faced with what their attorneys put in the marital settlement agreement. Now you've got five QDROs, the need for five QDROs. Can you talk about that a little bit? How to identify other 401k accounts that you wouldn't otherwise know about?
Donna:
So again, if you know your spouse has worked for an employer in the past, you want to be asking what your attorney should be asking on your behalf for discovery if there are any plans with those prior employers. Sometimes you can do some digging on the internet. Any ERISA governed plan has to file what's called a 5500, it's a tax document and those are public.
And you can see, does the plan even have a defined contribution plan or a defined benefit plan? Sometimes you can call the company and ask. Does your PPG, do they have a 401k plan? Yes, we do. Do they have a defined benefit pension plan? Yes, they do. And at least you will know there is a plan that exists. Does not mean that the employee is eligible for it but you at least want to know first the existence.
Catherine:
Exactly.
Karen:
I want you to highlight that because that happens a lot and I just wanted to reiterate that. Thank you for doing that.
Donna:
Mmm-hmm.
Catherine:
And it's really the big general question about these defined benefit plans that individuals don't necessarily have the privy to the information so they don't understand it. So when they do get a partial statement or they do get a screenshot or what have you, it'll say what your monthly benefit is at retirement. Now you're still working in most cases and then I'll give you a lump sum option. Can you explain to our listeners what the differences and what are the things to consider when you see that on a statement?
Donna:
Sure. So not all pension plans will offer a lump sum option but if they do it oftentimes is disclosed on that statement and that gives the employee or alternate pay if there's going to be a division, the potential option to either take a chunk of money and no further payments stream out into the future. You're almost kind of buying out your pension. You're taking that lump sum amount, you're transferring it into another retirement account, an IRA and then there's no more pension.
There are some pension plans that'll do kind of a hybrid. You can take a partial lump sum and it reduces that monthly benefit payment. Say without the lump sum, you're going to get $2,000 a month but if you take out the lump sum, now you only get $1,000 a month. You have to weigh those options. A lot of times it is in the plans benefit to offer a lump sum. They want to get the employee off their books. They want to get the liability off of their plate and push it over onto the employee's plate.
But if you do the math on what your monthly income stream would be over a theoretical life expectancy and then what the growth rate on that lump sum would be over that same life expectancy, you have to kind of weigh whether it's better to take the monthly payment or whether it's better to take the lump sum. And everybody's needs are different and everyone's concerns are different, but you definitely want to know all those options and what they mean for you and if it's beneficial or not.
Catherine:
So just as a follow-up to that, let's just say I get divorced and my spouse and I split his pension and now it's gone through a QDRO, will I now have the benefit of choosing a lump sum or an annual payment or do I have to get what my ex-spouse chooses?
Donna:
Well, it depends when the qualified domestic relations order is prepared. If it's prepared before they go into pay status, there are more choices available potentially. Once an employee goes into pay status, they have to choose what they're going to do right there and then. And usually those choices are irrevocable, right. You can't go back and say, "Oops, I didn't want to do that." Or "I [inaudible 00:20:53] do that." So that is important to know.
If it is before the employee goes into pay status, potentially you have the option of what's called on a pension plan at least, a separate interest QDRO, where in theory the pension is sort of dividing the pension into two parts, one for the employee and their marital portion and also any premarital or post-separation amounts. And then kind of one part for the alternate payee who's the former spouse and each spouse once that plan is divided can kind of take their piece and do with it what they want.
Catherine:
Hmm. So that's called a special interest QDRO.
Donna:
It's called a separate interest. So think of it riding on a train. Prior to the employee retiring and taking their benefit, usually most plans will allow, it's not a municipal plan or a government plan, they will allow for what's called a separate interest. That kind of division into two parts. And each person's on their own train kind of going forward into retirement.
If it's what's called a shared interest, everything is dictated by the employee spouse. The alternate payee doesn't really get to make any choices. They are stuck, not stuck, but with whatever the employee chooses. That's why you need to be sure proper language is in your agreement because you want to protect as many of those rights as you can. You don't want the employee electing something that might not be in your favor because it's permanent.
Karen:
Right. And if they have that shared interest, what happens when the participant passes?
Donna:
If they have put in language for survivor benefits, which is very important then the alternate payee or former spouse interchangeable kind of terms can continue on either all or a portion of that pension for their life expectancy. But those benefits have to be elected when the participant retires. Can't go back and say, "Oh, I didn't do that. We need to fix it." So it's very important to make sure those documents get in and that they're worded properly to protect those benefits for the former spouse.
Catherine:
Donna being a QDRO administrator do you often see, and I already know what the answer is, but if you're listening, this might be one of you, is that it's such lazy language and everyone's marital settlement agreement that you're just going to divide this or hire this person to do your QDRO, but all of these little points that you're bringing up, and I know Karen has experienced this a lot as well are things that could be negotiated. They're expecting this divorced couple to agree to this after the divorce, they're barely talking going through the divorce and these are major life choices that should be discussed before you sign your agreement. Isn't it true?
Donna:
Absolutely. And you are so right. Usually what happens is there's negotiation going on, the settlement agreement gets signed and then and only then do people start to get information about the plans that are going to be divided. And what happens is if you don't have proper language in your agreement, you may either lose benefits that you probably should have been entitled to.
And Catherine, like you said, if they're not even discussed during the settlement process, how do you know what your option is and what you're potentially giving up or not giving up. When you have a vague agreement it's subject to interpretation. Well, I might interpret things one way. Someone else might interpret things another way.
Karen:
Mmm-hmm.
Catherine:
Definitely.
Karen:
And I know I have prepared some QDROs as well. I'm not as experienced as a QDRO administrator as you are Donna, but I know that when the elections come through it's do you want to include gains or losses? And all of these, is it shared or separate and all of these questions that hosts the divorce agreement that the QDRO administrator is either picking for the clients or asking the clients to pick. And probably they have no idea what anything means at that point and a lot of times even their attorneys don't know how to interpret that specific type of language.
Donna:
Well, and sometimes it's done purposely, right. Sometimes if you have a real savvy attorney and maybe an attorney that maybe not as familiar with retirement account divisions, sometimes what you don't put in your marital settlement agreement favors one person or the other. And so one or two words can make a big difference. Are we going to include gains and losses or are we going to exclude them?
That can be a huge thing especially if there's a block of time that goes by before that order gets prepared and sent into the plan administrator for them to divide that plan. If the market's going crazy on the upside, and you're just dividing a plan 50-50 as of a specific date in the past that other party, there's going to be a windfall for one and perhaps a loss for the other and kind of vice versa. The market can go the other way too.
Karen:
Are you going to include loans, exclude loans?
Donna:
Yup.
Karen:
Are you're going to divide by shares or dollars? There's a lot of components there that people really are not aware of when they're dividing retirement plans and that the paragraphs and the settlement agreement is parties agree to split.
Catherine:
There's also another caution. You hear a lot about the gray divorces and the people in their 50s and 60s, and now even a lot of in their 70s coming to get divorced, but the ones in their 50s and 60s, some are eligible for retirement in earlier ages, right? So no one is anticipating a divorce they can go ahead and go into payee status before their spouse would know this and then file for divorce and you can't do something about it. So if you're kind of in the cusp of that time, this is something that you need to consider or put out there if there's a pension.
Donna:
A lot of plans but not all of them, if there is a spouse, a married spouse, not a divorced spouse and the participant, the employee spouse tries to go into payee status and chooses an option that's not a joint survivor benefit, many times the plan will require the spouse to be notified or to have a notarized signature or something. Not all plans, not all plans. But again, yeah, you want to know all those things. At least while you're married, death benefits usually are in place, right.
Because it's only the divorce that kind of severs that marital relationship. So if you're the beneficiary or even if you're just the spouse and it might be assumed, God forbid, if your husband or wife dies, you may still be covered up until the time the divorce decree is issued. Every state's different. Again, we're making some general kind of assessments today but you need to know all these things because you don't want to lose valuable benefits to which you're entitled.
Karen:
That's so true. Donna, how important is it to get a summary plan description? And can you describe what that is?
Donna:
Sure. So a summary plan description is basically the rule book that the company puts out in regards to their retirement account, right. If they have a 401k plan, whatever type of retirement plan that they have, there's a rule book behind the scenes it's called that summary plan description. That summary plan description though be aware, it's usually written for a single individual or a happily married individual. There's usually one little blurb in it that talks about, oh, by the way, if you get divorced see our written divorce procedures.
So the summary plan description is important because it does tell you when normal retirement is for a pension plan, it really becomes important more so in my mind, for pensions than for 401k type plans. They are pretty easy to divide. The rules are generally the same. Pensions are where things get tricky. You want to know how they calculate the benefit formula. When is retirement or cost of living increases something that the plan pays. Are there any supplemental type benefits that might need to be divided provided that they exist? And things like that.
Catherine:
So much information about these plans and people often times they just don't want to get involved with it. There's so many stress factors, as we all know, going through a divorce, dividing your home, dividing every asset and then you get down to this pension and you're just like, "Okay, you keep yours. I'll keep mine." Thinking it's easier thing to do. Where five years later you say, "Holy crap, why did I do that?"
Donna:
Well, even if you have two pensions that look the same, meaning they're valued roughly at the same, the rule book at each company may be different. Maybe one plan has survivor benefits, one plan does not. A lot of municipality kind of and union type plans have some odd kind of rules about police and firefighter, things like that. So even two plans that look on the surface to be similar, may have vast differences that if you knew what some of those differences were, you may want the right to either share them or give that right up to the other spouse and let them keep that plan.
Catherine:
Mmm-hmm. Great points. Such a great point. You're not always comparing apples to apples just because it looks that way.
Karen:
Mmm-hmm. That's so true marital assets, right?
Donna:
The devil's in the details ladies, you know that.
Catherine:
Absolutely. But if you're afraid to ask these questions, what are the best questions to ask?
Donna:
You mean for a divorce and client?
Catherine:
Mmm-hmm. If you're listening right now and you say, "Oh my gosh, we think my spouse has that. Or he has it somewhere else." What are the best questions to ask? A lot of people are afraid to even ask for that summary plan description. We've heard attorneys say, "Okay, we know what they made every year. We have it." Or "We have the screenshot." Or "We have this." How do you stand in your own confidence to ask these questions?
Donna:
Well, first of all, as we talked about earlier, definitely complete account statement. Don't do anything without that. A lot of times people can call the employer themselves, even if they're not the employee, right. I call all the time. And I ask for copies of the summary plan description. Some companies have them write on their online website, go onto their website, Google summary plan description or put QDRO or put divorced and see what pops up there.
But you can try to call the employer, especially if you are a spouse, because often times you can get that information. And you want to ask for three things. If there's a pension, two things if there's a 401k type plan. So if there's a pension, yes, the summary plan description. Even maybe more important than that is the client's written divorce procedures. Every ERISA govern plan should have them where they're not in compliance, but there's a document that kind of specifically talks about if an employee is getting, what is the kind of rule book there?
And then most plans have what's called a model or a sample qualified domestic relations order. You should ask for a copy of that too. Now I caution you there, don't just use it as a fill in the blank. You've got to know exactly what that means because you eliminate a word or you eliminate a paragraph it could have a huge financial effect, a windfall for one, not so much for the other. With 401k type plans which are called defined contribution plans, I usually only get written divorce procedures and a model DRO, obviously again, a statement, but I don't really get the summary plan description because nine times out of 10, there's nothing in there that I'm not going to already know.
Catherine:
Or you need the full statement.
Donna:
Yes. Full statement, no matter what.
Catherine:
Mmm-hmm.
Donna:
And keep asking if you're not getting it.
Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And don't sign until you have it. Don't sign, take pause. You deserve it.
Karen:
And these plans most of the time, if not all of the time cannot be divided until the divorce decree is in place. Am I correct on that?
Donna:
That depends. Most defined contribution plans will allow for division because the ERISA rule states, you can divide to a spouse, a former spouse, a child or a dependent of the employee. So a spouse is someone who is still married, a former spouse to someone who's not. Different from some pension plans they will require a copy of the divorce decree. When I say they meaning the employer before they will finalize the qualified domestic relations order. And again, that's just something to find out in advance so that you know.
Catherine:
This is really great information. Before we sign off, I want to touch on a little bit, incident to divorce. Can you explain the one-time withdrawal you're allowed to have from a plan?
Donna:
Yes. And that applies only really to defined contribution plans. So kind of throw pensions off to the side. It does not apply to pension plans. But if you are going to be receiving an award from your spouse who is the employee, you have the ability, once that money is divided at the plan level into your name, that you can take a one-time distribution. It's only once, you can't call every month and say you need $1,000, and it waives the 10% penalty you are under 59 and a half. So if you roll that money over into an IRA and then take the money out, you've lost that one time ability and you're going to be stuck paying that early withdrawal penalty of 10%. If you're under 59 and a half.
Catherine:
So you still have to pay taxes on the amount that you receive, you don't have to pay the penalty if you're younger than 59 and a half.
Donna:
Correct. The employer is mandatorily going to withhold 20%. They don't really care what your tax bracket is. The rule is they withhold 20%. If they withhold too much, you'll get it back when you prepare your tax returns for the following year. And if they don't withhold enough. So if you're in a higher tax bracket than 20%, you may owe a little bit more if you physically take the money out and spend it.
We're not talking about rolling it over to another plan, we're talking about if a lot of times you'll see it in divorce, maybe there's debt that needs paid off. And maybe there's not a lot of liquid assets. So one party will maybe take more from the 401k to agree to pay that debt off. And that's one way of getting some money out, still taxable money, but you can avoid that 10% penalty if it's done properly.
Catherine:
And I really want to bring that up because if you're listening, a lot of times you're being told, okay, you get this asset and you have this one-time withdrawal. Or some people don't even know about the one-time withdrawal, but you're thinking you're getting this and okay, you're trading away something else that might not have the same tax consequence. And you really need to consider what your needs are. Like you mentioned, you might be paying off a debt or you might be using that money to purchase a new home. But before you make that decision thinking that you're going to use those monies, yes you might be exempt from the 10%, but it's still taxable. And is that really equitable compared to what your spouse received?
Donna:
Well, that's why you'll hear the word thrown around where we're going to tax effect assets so that we're going to look at the tax consequence and theoretically pretend that that asset was liquidated. And if so, what would that tax consequence be? So, if I have a dollar, let's just use a dollar because it's easy. If I'm awarded a dollar, how much of that dollar am I going to keep?
It's in a savings account I'm going to keep 100% of it. If it's in a retirement account and I have to spend it, I'm going to be subject to some tax. So that dollar that I get, maybe I'm only receiving 80 cents. If my spouse is keeping a dollar but I'm only keeping 80 cents, how fair of a division do we have? Multiply that out to any type of asset size you're talking about.
Catherine:
Yes. So important and if you didn't get that rewind then listen again because once you sign that agreement, there's devils in those details that we discussed. If those details aren't there about getting the tax back, you're shit out of luck as my dad would say. So it's very important. Again, rewind and listen to that because I hate hearing these stories years later that you just didn't know, you were so emotionally drained at that point that you wanted to be done with it. And now you're stuck with that scenario.
Donna:
It's surprising too that some people out there that they physically have to take money out of their retirement account and give their spouse a check. That is not true either.
Catherine:
In fact, that's good point. Absolutely.
Karen:
That could be disastrous.
Donna:
Mmm-hmm.
Catherine:
Yes.
Karen:
So Donna do you prepare QDROs across the United States? Are you limited to a specific area?
Donna:
I am not limited to a specific area. My practice is located in southwestern Pennsylvania. Probably 90% of the QDROs that I draft are for attorneys in that locale. But I do draft for a few other states. I have some connections elsewhere. For ERISA plans, it doesn't matter where the plan is. The rule book is the same. For pensions you need to sometimes know a specific state rules and regulations.
For instance, if you have a government employee that works for the state or you have a teacher, each state has different rules and regulations. And so whomever someone is using to draft that document they do need to understand those rules and regulations so that they can properly draft that document to the party's satisfaction and know all the things and bells and whistles that need to be in all the oops factors that could happen if not done properly.
Karen:
Mmm-hmm. That's great. So how can our listeners find you Donna?
Donna:
They can find me by Googling my website, cheswickdivorce solutions.com. They can probably Google my name as well. They can call me. My phone number is on my website as well and send an email.
Catherine:
Or call us. We had to find you for sure because we're always looking for you.
Karen:
You're on speed dial with us, Donna.
Donna:
Oh, that's nice. Thanks.
Karen:
So this concludes our discussion with Donna Cheswick on the nitty-gritty issues based in retirement plan division. So thank you so much, Donna for being here with us and we look forward to more conversations with you.
Donna:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
On the newest episode of We Chat Divorce we’re joined by Renee Bauer, Esq. to discuss The Art of Re-Invention – Divorcing Without Shame. Renee Bauer is an award-winning divorce attorney, author, podcast host, and champion of finding your Happy Even After. She boldly educates and inspires women about divorce so they can move into their next chapter with confidence. She is the creator of The D Course, an online educational course designed to help save thousands of dollars in legal fees. Renee is regularly sought out by media to comment on trending family law issues. She is the Founder of Happy Even After Family Law located in Connecticut.
Learn More >> https://msreneebauer.com
Connect with Renee Bauer, Esq. on LinkedIn >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/rbauer1/
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Shanahan, Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
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Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce with Karen Chellew, legal liaison and Catherine Shanahan CFA co-founders of my Divorce Solution, the company that delivers the quintessential financial blueprint to couples facing, or going through the divorce process. This blueprint, known as the MDS financial portrait, establishes the foundation and options and individual or couple would need to make clear financial decisions when considering divorce. Each podcast, Catherine and Karen, sit down with divorce professionals and other individuals who provide insight and Frank discussion about real people, real situations, and real divorce.
Welcome to We Chat Divorce, Catherine and I are so happy today to welcome Attorney Renee Bauer to our podcast. In this episode, we're going to discuss the Art of Re-invention - Divorcing Without Shame. But first let me take a couple minutes to introduce Renee. Renee Bauer is an award winning divorce attorney, a published author, and founder of the family law firm Bauer Law Group. Renee's insights are sought after by local, national, and international media outlets, podcasts, and conferences, where she speaks on co-parenting blended family dynamics, relationships, and the art of reinvention as an accomplished litigator. She boldly educates and inspires women to reclaim their right to happiness through her online course, The D Course, love that and her podcast Happy Even After. Welcome Renee.
Renee:
Good morning, Ladies. How are you?
Catherine:
Good. We're so happy to have you, not only because of your expertise, but for your enthusiasm that you bring to a very difficult topic basically. ou know, you've been a divorce attorney for so long, and now you found the courage to talk about your own experiences with divorce. What gave you that courage to do that?
Renee:
Yeah, so, you know, it was really, really difficult. And for most of my career, I showed off in the way I thought a lawyer was supposed to show up, you know, all buttoned up and I was putting on an act and I would go into court and represent my clients and do the job that I thought I was supposed to do. But when I got home from at night and I kind of stripped away the suit in, in the act, it was, I was like a broken version of myself because I never talked about not just one divorce, but two divorces that I've had. And because I was filled with so much shame and I really had no intention of talking about it. I thought this was just something I was going to keep to myself forever and kind of just live with it. And one day a good friend of mine had started a podcast and she said, “Hey, I want to have you on as a guest. And I'm going to bring some sushi over, we'll have a couple drinks. I'm going to ask you questions.” And at that point I didn't listen to podcasts. I was just like, okay, like, I'll answer some questions for sushi. I can do that. And then she came over, we ate a ton. She clipped the mic on me. And for the first time ever, I spoke about my divorce and she asked these questions and I actually answered them. And when that podcast episode dropped, I was inundated with messages and emails and DMS from other women who said, that was my story too. Thank you for sharing. One woman said she sat in her hotel room and just sobbed because she never, she felt so alone during her divorce. And here she was listening to someone else talk about what they were going through. And at that point I knew I needed to stop being the buttoned up version of myself and really strip away those filters and start sharing my real story and start being vulnerable, which is so hard to do as, you know, a type A perfectionist of just really showing up and saying, hey this is me. This is what I went through. And it's definitely been a process, but it has been so rewarding because I’ve just connected with so many people that way. And I've heard so many incredible stories and was inspired to start my own podcast because of that.
Catherine:
You know, it's great that you say all of that because we talk about what it does for the other women, you know, the three of us developing through them or to the other side, right. So we know where they, where they are currently probably. But when you tell your own story and I've experienced this myself, you know, that vulnerability is very hard to do. But when you do it afterwards, you really you're healing yourself further. You know, you realize that there is still more healing. We all need to always improve. So when sharing your story, not only is that woman's sobbing in her room feeling a sense of relief because she realizes she's normal, but then I bet you went home too, and you probably shed your own tears saying, wow, I let that out. It's like something I was hiding from and it's okay. Right. Is that how you feel? Yeah. And, you know, especially the second divorce, like that was just such a moment of embarrassment and almost humiliation like the marriage was in, I was in and out of it so fast before like a season was up, but there was so much shame from that one and, you know, coming out the other side in inch and I, I you're right. You're completely right. I'd never really healed from that. Like I was still holding onto it and now I talk about it so much. And so frequently as just something that has just happened, there's no emotion attached to it. It's like, all right, it's just part of my story. And it allows me to do the work that I do now. It taught me to be a better partner and spouse for my current husband now, because I really learned from, from that. And, you know, if you, the more you talk about it, the, the more detached you are as if this is something that's so substantial and so impactful to who you are as a person. And it becomes so much less than that. And it's just, okay, this is just one chapter in my book is really, really thick. So I'm going to turn the next page, but you're completely right. The more we talk about our stories and share them there is just this healing process that happens for the person who's listening to that. And the person who's actually speaking it.
Karen:
Yeah. Renee, were you in the attorney during your divorces where you practicing family law attorney?
Renee:
Yeah. And you know what, there’s the embarrassment of having to go into court and go into the courtroom on the day that I was getting divorced and standing there amongst the judges that I regularly practice in front of and some colleagues you know, that was so much shame there, which is crazy because it's like, why. You know, I do this every single day. Why was I so attached to this? And you know, there's so many reasons for that - generational upbringing and you know all of the societal upbringing that what we're taught about divorce. So even though I can work in that space and help other people through it, when I was going through it myself, it was just, you know, I got brought back to those moments of being a child and, you know, learning about friends whose parents were getting divorced or hearing my own parents talk about divorce and, you know, just, just whatever relative said. And just those things that you brought up thinking and attaching to that word. So yeah, it was, it was really, really difficult. And there was such a a difference between what I was doing in my work every single day and my personal life. And it wasn't until those two blended that I really stepped into who I am, what I was meant to do. And just in complete alignment with my life. Like there was definitely a disconnect before that time.
Karen:
So did they blend, or did they collide? I'm just wondering.
Renee:
It's all semantics. You know, I think that it was a collision at first and now it blends. I think that, you know, there was some was so much resistance at the very beginning and even my current husband and I like had to sit down and have a conversation about me speaking and being so public about it in a way that I never had before, because it was so personal. Like I kept everything to myself and now I was thrusting our family kind of into the social media world and speaking about it and sharing things, never sharing things about the exes. Cause that's not what it was about, that doesn't help you heal, but just short of sharing about our life in my journey. And so there was some resistance at the beginning because that was something my, my husband was uncomfortable with. He was like, I don't know about this. And I'm like, I get it. It's hard, it's hard for me, but you know, this is going to happen and we're going to do it. And now it's going to get easier each day and now it's, you know, he's totally comfortable with it. So there's definitely the collision at the very beginning and now it's blended beautifully.
Catherine:
Oh, that's awesome. You know, and I think a lot of shame comes from a lot of guilt, you know, as our generation, we're all in the same generation or actually we might be a little older than you, but you know, we're, we're expected to play our role and play it perfectly. And we're expected to do so many different things perfectly. And not only are we expected by others, but we expect it of ourselves a lot of times. And so we feel so guilty about not being able to, you know, meet up with the expectations of staying married forever or the shame as you say, getting divorced the second time, because it just didn't work out. Why do we carry all that guilt and shame on ourselves? You know, it's not until you get into your fifties that you start releasing some of that where, you know, it just doesn't matter.
You know, the twenties and the thirties and the forties are just about sometimes almost everybody else, but yourself and that's what needs to change. You know, we don't need to be, feel shameful or guilty because our marriage didn't last as long as it was supposed to, by the guidelines that are put out there. You know, I don't say my marriage was a failure. You know, I was married 20 years. That's what the person, 23 years, I just say it lasts as long as it was supposed to, you know, and I think we need to change the mindset and the dialogue on how we treat others, you know? And when we look at somebody who's a divorcee, you know, so it's okay. You don't have to say, I'm so sorry for you. You know, you can say congratulations for moving forward with getting through that. Yeah.
Renee:
Yeah. And it's not contagious. It's like, you know, you say that you're divorced and you know, some reaction is like, oh, well, didn't, you want to try to make it work? Or, you know, oh, well, there's plenty of fish in the sea. And they kind of like, step back a little bit from you as if like they can catch it, but you're so right. And you know, what I think you said is so important is the guilt of walking away from something that just isn't good enough. Like it's okay to have to be married to someone who is a good person and not the right fit for you. And to be able to say, you know what, we're just not living in alignment. Maybe our values are different. Maybe would just adjust, it's come to completion and being able to walk away from that because there's something not something better that you're looking for, but it's just not the relationship that you want for yourself. And you walk away. Not because you're looking for there's someone waiting in the wings, but you walk away because you're choosing yourself. And I think that I, and I'm sure you guys hear it too, but there are so many women who will say, you know, my husband's a good person. He's a good father. And so what's wrong with me that I'm not fulfilled. And I think that that's, you know, there's so much work to be done there. And that's, you know, that was my first marriage. Like there was nothing wrong with it, but it wasn't, it wasn't a good fit. And, you know, he went on to marry someone who was his perfect match in every sense of the word. And so did I and you know, and it's, it's kind of like breaks my heart to think of people who stay and they kind of jam themselves into our relationship because they think that if, if, unless it's abusive or unless it's like really bad, then there's no reason for them to be unhappy. And that's where that guilt comes in because they feel guilty about wanting something different than what they have.
Catherine:
Just sad because we all change. You know, we hear a lot of people say, oh, our spouse says you change. Not the same person I was married to. That's why I want a divorce. You know? Well, of course we all change. You know, hopefully I change every day. I pray that I become a better person tomorrow. Right. So it's okay to change. And as you're saying, if over those years 20, and we have a lot of 30 year marriage is coming to us 20 years or five years, whatever it is, if your outlook has changed in life, listen, let the spice goes by so fast. That's okay. You don't have to feel guilty about it. You know, it is your right to be happy. And we see that a lot on the financial side, because there's a lot of shame and a lot of confusion and sadness or fear that they're going to leave this marriage.
They don't have to take, they're not happy, but at least everything's taken care of because they don't understand it. And once they start getting the financial knowledge that they need, whether they have to go to work or not, it doesn't matter. But once they get that Renee, you should see their faces, you know, they just transform into, oh my gosh, I'm feeling a little bit more empowered. I'm embarrassed that I didn't know that information. You know, we always say, it's okay. You know, you did the best you could at the time you're doing it. But once you gain that kind of knowledge, some you get to move forward right. In the positive direction for yourself.
Renee:
Yeah. I have a client that I like to use as an example for exactly what you're talking about. And she was in a long-term marriage. Her husband did everything, paid the bills, took care of the house. And she had a really comfortable life. It was not a good marriage. It wasn't horribly bad, but it certainly was not good. And she would've stayed forever because she was afraid of what was going to happen on the other side. And so she was forced into this divorce situation. She knew she would have stayed married, had he wanted to. And she was so afraid of paying her own bills, taking care of the house and all of that. Having to go back to work full time. And it was about a year after her divorce that she reached out to me and said, I have never been so happy in my entire life.
And I didn't even know that I was so unhappy until I was forced into this situation. And she said, she bought her house. She was paying her own bills. She was financially responsible. She was saving money. And, you know, she was just so happy that she was forced into this situation. And I'm like, that's you know, that's the example. That's the success story of just because you don't know it now, does it mean you can't learn it? And there's so much power when you start to really understand what money looks like and, and the finances and you take control of it. You're no longer just sitting back, waiting for things to happen for you. You become the driver and that's, you know, that's amazing. That's incredible.
Catherine:
That is incredible. And if you're listening, you know, that that woman took on a very courageous journey, but it was not easy. So a lot of people look at us, probably the three of us and many others that we talked to is I want to get to where you are now, you know, I'm 10 years out, right? So I want to get to where you are now, but I had to do that work too. You know, I cried every day for years, you know, I went through my ex saying to me, who has a better marriage than ours, ours is fine. Who, whose other marriage do you want? And I always said, it's not about the other people's marriage. It's about what I want, you know, the happiness I want. But it it's a journey to get through that. So if you're listening, give yourself a time so that you can be the success story of that woman as well, which is so exciting to hear.
Renee:
Yeah. And, and I think that that's so important too, is just to have some grace and allow yourself to heal and not jump into something else. Don't try to quick fix your emotions by jumping into another relationship. Like really give yourself that space that you can, and it's okay to cry. It's okay to miss your kids on the weekends. You don't have them. We all have gone through that, but you just continue putting one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward. And that's how you get out the other side.
Karen:
I love that. So I see a tip here is give yourself space. What's some more tips that you have to help people divorce without shame, because I'm going to guess it's a high percentage of people that do have a significant amount of shame navigating this challenging process.
Renee:
Yeah. And so, you know, there's so many bad things about social media, but I think there's so many good things too. And I think that there are so many communities of people going through something similar and so many resources out there. So I'd say find a community that you feel comfortable in enjoying that. There's so many really amazing people doing this work and in this space and surround yourself with some, with other people who know what it's like, and they get it and they can say, I see you. I felt all of that attend events. Like the one that you put together that's a great place to connect with other women and make lifelong friendships. In addition to being inspired and excited about your future. And then just give yourself time. And like I said, don't jump into anything like it's, I think it's your initial reaction is to want to get some attention, want to mask the pain that you're feeling and you start dating before you're ready. And now you're just, you're covering up without actually healing. And so really before you jumped back into the dating world to make sure you're ready to do that, and you're doing it because you, you are ready to date, not because you're trying to fill the void to fill the time when you missed your kids.
Catherine:
Yeah. Do you think that's what you did and the second time around?
Renee:
Well, I actually did that right after my first divorce, I jumped into dating and that didn't work. That was not my second husband. Then there was time in between that. So, you know, who knows, who knows how many, what mistakes I made the second time around. You know, I think that that was just not giving the relationship enough space to let everything reveal itself. I think that that was just jumping too quickly into something and ignoring the red flags you know.
Catherine:
Love that Renee, not giving yourself enough space to let everything reveal itself. That is so powerful. And I think that we need to write that down and take that away because it's so true. You know, men and women, nobody wants to be lonely and everyone, and as we get older, everyone says, I don't want to be alone. I hear it from both sides, the men and the women. Right. So I always remember saying, you know, just because to my friends, I'm sitting here alone by myself. I'm really not lonely. Like I enjoyed watching the TV by myself. I enjoyed not having to cook for my kids finally for a night. You know, I learned to like embrace that and it really is cathartic. And it is something that we need, I guess it's the self care, right? Which is the best care that we need to start embracing, especially as women, because we're all, we're big givers and we're always taking care of something. But to take that time, even when you're going through the divorce to pause and look at what you need, you know, and give yourself the time to see what it is that you need from a companion, if that's what it is that you want.
Renee:
And that's, that's exactly the takeaway that I have as to this day is because when I did create that time and really learned how to be by myself and do things that filled me up, it's something that I still crave. And even in a current relationship in married, it's still something that I make time for. And, you know, an example is I went to Vegas recently with my husband and he was traveling for work. And I spent the day kayaking down the Colorado river by myself. And it was, it was, you know, I don't need, I don't need someone else to be there with me. Like, this is something that just filled me up and it was that self-care. And it was being in nature and being by myself, it wasn't being lonely. It was doing something by myself. And you really, when you give yourself that space, you learn how to do that. And when you're comfortable being by yourself, you don't need to fit the type, fit someone in there. You will if you're with someone and it feels good and you're having fun and it's joyful, then that's fine. But when you start to see the red flags, you're able to walk away and say, you know what, this doesn't serve me. And I don't need you just to keep me company because I can keep myself company. Then I think that that's important is that you're really paying attention to those red flags. We all have had them in bad relationships. And when we've allowed them to linger a little too long, that's when you see the, the divorce or, you know, the relationship not work out. But it's taken some time to get there. So pay attention right at the beginning and you know, really dial into what those red flags feel like in your body and pay attention to them. And don't try to make excuses for them. It's, it's your gut instinct telling you that something just isn't right. And it's okay to walk away from that.
Catherine:
Yeah. I'd like to set up, I would like to set a challenge out there if you're listening to this podcast, because I do believe that with that self-care, you will release some of the shame and the guilt that you feel. So Renee, we heard that you just went kayaking in Vegas by yourself and really had a great time. So if you're listening, challenge yourself, what will you do this week today, this month to challenge yourself, to be by yourself and Karen, I think you and I will have to think of something too. I know Karen recently went out and I was so proud of her. I'm a little bit more of an extrovert. So I go out and do a lot of things, but Karen is more of an introvert, not in a negative way at all. I'm not saying that, but I said to her, go do pickleball by yourself. You don't need your friends all around you to go with ego due to a group that you don't know anyone. And she ended up doing that and she could talk about her experience. I'm not talking for her, but I will boast for her because she was the champion of a tournament that they had. And she would have never done that probably years ago, but found the courage to do it. And how did you feel after you did that for yourself? Like what kind of self-care was that?
Karen:
That was incredible because you are right. I am an introvert. And when I hear both of you talking about those things by yourself, I know for myself and for a lot of our clients, that's a really hard thing because, you know, for most of our lives, we're just around a lot of people. But I did take that challenge and I did sign up for a tournament. And so my first experience walking onto the courts was, oh, God, I don't know where to go. I don't know who to talk to. I don't even know if I'm in the right group here, cause you have to assign yourself a level to compete. So, you know, I just kept stepping up and asking questions and, you know, taking the next step and the worst case scenario I could walk away. But I never felt like doing that.
I met some really great people and I had a really good time. So it was a great experience. So I do encourage anyone to just take small steps if that's your first step. Because we do have to do really hard things in our lives. And that piece of it is important, especially when you're in a life-changing situation, which divorce is. And we have lots of them to really know who you are inside. And I love that you encourage your clients and the people that are around you to do that because it is important. Yeah.
So I have a question because you're challenging people to do hard things. That's can be a very hard thing from a self-care perspective, but when people are divorcing, they have to do really hard things from a tangible perspective, meaning make really good informed decisions for themselves and value themselves enough to make really clear financial and legal decisions. And sometimes it's really super hard because you're walking into a vortex of chaos. It seems sometime, and you don't know what's right and what's wrong and you're getting opinions from everybody. And sometimes you're you feel vulnerable and intimidated. So how much do you assign that as being as the art of reinvention, because going through divorce begins that art of reinvention. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Renee:
Sure. That's a great question. You know, I think that one of the mistakes that lawyers see clients make is the client comes in and says, okay, I hired the lawyer and now I don't have to do anything. And I'm going to let this lawyer do all of the work and speak for me. And I'm just going to follow the advice. And I think that that's a big mistake. There are lots of lawyers out there. Some of them do better jobs than others. Some have different value systems in terms of how they practice and whether they are pushing things to litigation or more settlement minded. And you really need to take control as a client of your own situation and become informed and ask the lawyer every step of the way, why things are being done or ask questions and not just allow or rely on the professional to tell you the way something is supposed to be done.
Because at the end of the day when you sign that divorce agreement, you have to live with it. And if there's something you don't understand, or there's something that you absolutely hate, that's in there, then you need to be sure that that's being addressed before your signature goes on that page. And you know, we say lawyers say all the time that no agreement is perfect. And usually both sides are a little bit unhappy with the agreement, which is true, but you also have to start to prioritize what's important and have your goal lists. And you know, like what's the number one thing that's so important to you that you don't want to negotiate on, or it's more important for that piece than something else. So you can give up something else in order to get that. And you have to be the one to set those goals and not yet let your lawyer or any of the professional set them for you.
So I think that the most important piece of it is educate yourself and ask, don't be intimidated or afraid to ask questions of the professionals and don't let any professional bully you into an agreement that you don't like. They're supposed to be working for you. They're supposed to be guiding you and counseling you and advising you of all of the, maybe the different variables if you pursue it in court or not, but you are allowed to ask questions and make sure you understand so that you're not just kind of being pushed into something that you don't like. So education and being a self advocate are the most important pieces.
Karen:
I love that you say that.
Catherine:
Sorry.
Karen:
Yeah, it is. I spend a lot of time with clients at the table with their attorney and other professionals and they do take that. It's almost a relief. Okay. It's in their hands. I'm good to go. And I'll say, well, now it's even more important that you're engaged because they're your advocate. They're not the boss. So they, they need to be directed by you. You come to the table and you, as an attorney, you need to know what do you want and why do you want it? And then you can do your job. And I think to your point, a lot of people don't understand that. And then they end up very confused and very frustrated.
Renee:
There's lots of lawyers that will just try to jam an agreement down their client's throat just to be done with it. And they, they won't listen to them or they won't recognize what their goals are in the hierarchy of those goals. And instead, they're just going to tell them that you need to do this because this is what's on the table and you're not going to get something better in court. And I think just having a better conversation, a more communication with your lawyer in order to head to, to get on the same page. So you both are working towards the same goal and a lot of times that doesn't happen.
Catherine:
Yeah. So even if you take pause and take on the challenge of doing something by yourself, for yourself, that might be the space that you need to get the courage to ask those really good questions or to listen to your gut. Women have a really good, strong gut reaction to things and look at the red flags and write those things down and take it to your attorney and ask those questions, you know, because you'll become more powerful by the more questions you ask.
Renee:
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Catherine:
Yeah.
Karen:
So Renee, do you have a final tip for everyone? I'm sure it may relate to your Happy Even After podcast or The D course. What would you like to leave with everyone today?
Renee:
I would say that you have to start turning inward to find solutions to the things that are keeping you up at night. So, so often what happens is someone looks at their acts and says, they're the reason for all of my misery. They're the reason I don't have enough money, or they might look to their lawyer and say, they're the reason that I, you know, I didn't get enough. And they're looking constantly for external answers, things that are keeping them up and are causing them concern. And when you flip that switch and you say, okay, what can I do to fix this problem? Or what can I do to make sure I have enough money to pay my bills? Or what can I do when I'm missing my kids, you're starting to provide your, provide your own solutions. And I think that is the key to coming out the other side of divorce, to thrive in past divorce and to really finding your happy even after is to stop blaming and looking back, stop looking in the past and just look forward and have the courage to rely on yourself and the strength to say, I am all that I need in order to make it out the other end. And because you have all of the power and you have everything you need inside of you, you just have to tap into it, believe in it.
Karen:
I love that. Absolutely. Okay. Renee, where should people go if they want to connect with you or learn more about you? Sure. Instagram is my favorite place to hang out. So you can find me there at Ms. Renee Bauer. And then from there, you can link up to everything else I have going on. Wonderful. Okay. Well, this concludes our episode on the art of re-invention divorcing without shame. Thank you, Renee, for a great conversation.
Renee:
Thank you so much.
On the newest episode of We Chat Divorce we’re joined by Winter Wheeler, Esq. to discuss The Four Cornerstones of Mediation™. Wheeler, a graduate of Georgetown University and Tulane Law School, has always combined her interests in culture, diplomacy, and the law. She is especially passionate about changing the face of mediation and arbitration - by bringing compassion, listening to the forefront, and placing the litigant and emotions at the center of the conversation. Wheeler is a former top civil litigator who has made her niche as an expert mediator.
Wheeler is the creator of The Four Cornerstones of Mediation™, which she introduced to the world in her first TEDx talk in March 2021. Wheeler, a married mom of four, gave her second TEDx talk “Confessions of a Working Mom Who Has It All” in June 2021. She is co-author of the bestselling book, #Networked. She is also the creator and host of The Mediate Now™ podcast.
Our hosts, Karen and Catherine, sit down with Winter Wheeler, Esq. to discuss The Four Cornerstones of Mediation™.
Learn More >> https://www.winterwheeler.com/
Connect with Winter Wheeler, Esq. on LinkedIn >> @Winter Wheeler
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Shanahan, Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Shanahan and Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, SHANAHAN, AND CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Catherine and I are so happy today to welcome attorney mediator Winter Wheeler to our podcast today. In this episode, we're going to discuss The Four Cornerstones of Mediation™.
Karen:
Welcome, Winter. So glad you're here with us today.
Winter Wheeler:
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. I've been following y'all, and it's a privilege.
Catherine:
So fun to have you, and I want those flowers in your background.
Winter Wheeler:
They're fake, so I'll send you the link.
Catherine:
This is one of the things I love about you.
Karen:
So before we get into the conversation of the four cornerstones, I'm going to take a couple of minutes to introduce Winter.
Karen:
So, Winter is a former top civil litigator who has made her niche as an expert mediator. She is sought out for her unique, compassionate and successful style handling complex matters that involve a diverse range of cultures, including Spanish-speaking clients.
Karen:
Most recently, Winter was a senior attorney at a prominent law firm. And it's this extensive body of experience she brings into her current mediation practice that makes her work stand out. A graduate of Georgetown University and Tulane Law School, Winter has always combined her passions for culture, diplomacy and the law.
Karen:
Winter is the creator of the The Four Cornerstones of Mediation™, which she introduced to the world in her first TEDx talk in March of 2021. And Winter, you actually launched it yesterday, am I correct on that?
Winter Wheeler:
Yes, we launched a course based on the four cornerstones.
Karen:
I love that.
Winter Wheeler:
And that is available as a group or private classes.
Karen:
Awesome. She gave her second TEDx talk in June 2021, entitled “Confessions of a Working Mom Who Has It All.” I highly recommend that you listen to it. Catherine and I just got a little preview of it. Amazing! You have to listen to it.
Catherine:
Yeah.
Karen:
“Confessions of a Working Mom Who Has It All”
Karen:
Winter's also the co-author of the best-selling book #Networked. She's also creator and host of the Mediate Now podcast. Winter spends her free time volunteering in her community, enjoying her husband and four children, and traveling back to Miami, Florida, where she was raised, as much as possible.
Karen:
She's especially passionate about changing the face of mediation and arbitration by bringing compassion and listening to the forefront and placing the litigant and emotions at the center of the conversation.
Karen:
That is powerful, Winter.
Winter Wheeler:
Thank you.
Karen:
That's awesome. So, let's pop right into this and talk about the four cornerstones. I guess we'll start with number one.
Winter Wheeler:
Okay.
Karen:
Number one, what is it?
Winter Wheeler:
Number one. Number one is emotional intelligence. So, of course, emotional intelligence, we've all heard about it. It's one of the newest buzz phrases, right? It's how we relate to other people, how we understand ourselves. And it's about how we understand, how we relate to the world, and how our feelings, how our emotions interact with those around us. How do we react to those around us? How do our feelings affect how we interact with those around us? We typically don't think about that on a daily basis, on an interaction basis. And ... Go ahead, yeah.
Karen:
I was going to say, especially in the framework of mediation or negotiation, that I can see it play a really important part.
Catherine:
Well, yeah. Because everyone comes into mediation thinking it's their spouse, it's not them. Someone else's actions cause our reactions, so you're already geared up when you go into mediation thinking, "Okay, I'm ready to defend myself against anything he says," or vice versa. So you're not really thinking internally, "What am I actually bringing in here emotionally?" Other than my anger, or my hurtness, or the sadness, or what have you.
Winter Wheeler:
Exactly.
Catherine:
Is that what we're talking about here, how you walk into a mediation?
Winter Wheeler:
Exactly, exactly. It's about how what you do makes the other person respond. Now, you can go into it thinking "I'm going to respond to everything he says. I'm going to respond to everything that he's ever done to me. He's hurt me so badly and I have a list. I have that list of what he's done to me, and I know how I can counteract all of those things."
Winter Wheeler:
You can do that. That doesn't help you. It doesn't help you get what you want. Right?
Winter Wheeler:
So when you go into a mediation, what you need to focus on is how you can help yourself long-term. What is it that you need? What is it that you want long-term?
Winter Wheeler:
Short-term, it may make you feel good to say or have your mediator say something nasty to your ex, but that doesn't help you long-term. Right?
Karen:
Absolutely.
Winter Wheeler:
You know your soon-to-be-ex spouse. So what you need to do is think about how what you're about to say, the message you're about to deliver, is going to be received by them.
Winter Wheeler:
And one thing about this technique is, if you're the one using it, and likely you are the only one using it, you can project based on what you know about the other person, and decide what you're going to say, in such a way that you can control how they respond.
Winter Wheeler:
For example-
Catherine:
What about the individual, I'm sorry.
Winter Wheeler:
No, no. Go ahead.
Catherine:
A lot of times you hear people who jump mediators, I'm leaving this one because she's not listening to me. Or she's not defending me, or she's defending him too much, or she's agreeing with him and she's not seeing all the bad things he did to me.
Catherine:
I can see that plays into this as well.
Winter Wheeler:
It certainly does. And now, of course all mediators are not created the same. They're not all equal. We all have our quirks. We all try to be neutral.
Winter Wheeler:
I am now in the process of certifying mediators in this method, so you can look for mediators who are certified in this method. But if you inherently do not trust your mediator, trust your gut. Never forget to trust your gut.
Winter Wheeler:
But at the same time, your mediator is there to tell you the truth. And your mediator, if you're in a position where your mediator has separated the two of you because you should not be in the same room, your mediator knows what's happening in the other room.
Winter Wheeler:
So sometimes your mediator is telling you something about yourself that you need to hear and not necessarily saying the same thing to the other party. So when you are dealing with a mediator, I need you to be open and to be honest. And I tell people that at the start of the mediation. If I say something to you that you don't like, that makes you unhappy, that makes you upset, that makes you angry, my goal is never to make you upset.
Winter Wheeler:
It's to be honest with you. So you need to tell me if what I have done has made you angry. If it has made you trust me less, please tell me. Because there is always a reason for every single word that has come out of my mouth.
Winter Wheeler:
Mediators, good mediators, are calculated. Our goal is to get you what you need and some of what you want. We want everyone to go home satisfied. Satisfied is very different from happy, okay? Keep that in mind. It is very, very different from happy. But satisfied people go home with what they need. They go home feeling heard. They go home feeling whole.
Catherine:
I love what you just said and I think that we need to quote this out there. You go home with what you need and some of what you want. And I think that if you're listening and you're going to mediation and Karen and I always talk about compromise. Any divorce, there is going to be a compromise, whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, there's a compromise on both sides, but what's so rewarding is if you know what you want and know what you need, you'll realize that you'll get some of both of that basically.
Catherine:
And it allows you to have more of an open mind to the communication and be able to say, "Hey Winter, you pissed me off yesterday. You told me my ex was not such a bad guy and I think he's a horrible guy" or whatever it is. And then you always want to say, "Well, Catherine, let me tell you the truth here. I've seen worse or I've seen better" or whatever it is or "You're being unrealistic." I love that open communication. And I think it's so hard for a lot of people doing it and it basically stems down to the way we look at it. A lot of people don't know what they need and what they want financially speaking.
Winter Wheeler:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Catherine:
It leaves you so seriously scared through the process, which is why we're doing what we do. But this is great.
Karen:
Yeah. And I think you probably see Winter speaking about emotions, a lot of people coming to the table needing things or thinking they need things from a very emotional perspective. And you were going to make a comment a couple of minutes ago about for example. I'm hoping you were going to take something that somebody would say and reframe it into how they could have said it better. I think that would be cool.
Winter Wheeler:
Yeah. I don't remember exactly.
Karen:
I'm very interested, but I think it would help our listeners to kind of have it for example, especially in the cornerstone of emotional intelligence, helping them understand what people typically want to say and then how you help them reframe it.
Winter Wheeler:
Right. So a lot of what I hear comes from a very emotional place. So a lot of states no longer have fault divorce. We have no-fault divorce. It doesn't matter that your spouse has cheated on you. It doesn't matter. Now here in Georgia, we do still have jury trials, so that's always fun, but most states don't have that.
Winter Wheeler:
So you can say to me all day long, "Well, he should owe me more money because I found out he was sleeping with Susie." And you can say, "I want you to tell him that I" ... dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Okay. That's great. The way I'm going to tell that to him is going to be very different from the way that you said it to me.
Winter Wheeler:
I also called myself an interpreter because you can tell me whatever you want to tell me, what I'm going to say to him or the other party, which could be a her, is going to be something that they can hear. Emotional intelligence involves understanding how, what you think and feel can actually be heard and understood by the other party.
Winter Wheeler:
And if you have been yelling at your partner, because you likely have been, especially in a case where they've cheated on you, if you've been telling them the same thing over and over and over again, and it's not sinking in, then clearly I'm not going into the other room to say that. Right?
Karen:
Right.
Winter Wheeler:
So I will reframe it into something positive. And can I reframe absolutely anything and everything into something positive? Yes, I can. That's my job. So we take, "You were cheating on me and you owe me, blah, blah, blah," into "She raised three children with you for X years and so as a result, she feels that she deserves X."
Winter Wheeler:
We don't talk about what he did with Susie, because he knows what he did with Susie. I don't always have to talk about what he did with Susie. We changed that up. We changed that up a bit. We just changed the narrative, but you have to come in thinking about what the other person thinks, how do they feel?
Winter Wheeler:
And it's so hard. I understand it. It's so hard to think about how that person who has hurt you so badly feels. But if you want to come out with what you need, you have to do that. You've got to take a lot of that emotion out.
Catherine:
Absolutely. And I think that's just par for the course in divorce. A lot of people see emotional injustices have some kind of financial compensation and understanding to your point what you need or what you want, at the end of the day, maybe determining, we see this a lot, how much did husband spend on girlfriend with part of our money? That could be discussed, right? But in the framework of how do we come to a conclusion they're not, "I'm hurt."
Catherine:
And so I really appreciate that first cornerstone of yours with just the emotional intelligence piece of it, because that is a critical piece of being very successful in negotiations, I believe. Being able to parse out what parameters of discussion will be. That's awesome.
Winter Wheeler:
Yes, definitely.
Karen:
All right. So let's move on to cornerstone number two is ...
Winter Wheeler:
Cornerstone number two is cultural knowledge. A lot of the time when I talked to people involved in divorce and divorce mediators, they will say, "Well, this doesn't matter. They've been married for so long. How could this possibly be a concern for them? They knew that going in." It's such a naive position to take.
Winter Wheeler:
When you talk about people engaging culturally, when you're in love and you get married, you think the cultural differences don't matter. And then you get married and you have children and they do matter. Now I'm in a multicultural, multiracial family here myself. So yes, they do matter. The extent to which they mattered, you don't even necessarily talk about while you're married, because it's easier a lot of the time to just gloss over it, or "I'm sick. We can't go to that event."
Winter Wheeler:
I pulled that this summer myself.
Catherine:
Darn headaches.
Winter Wheeler:
Yeah. Darn headaches. My migraines are just crazy right now. Oh, COVID. COVID, my God. We can't fly. But once you're at the divorce table, those things mean a lot because this person is now going to have control of your children when you're not there. So what does that look like? Now suddenly Aunt Mary's graces tendencies will be visited upon your children when you're not there to shield them from them. And now it's a big problem.
Catherine:
Well, how do you come into your divorce now? I know we've seen this, it's just religious things. All of a sudden, they want custody during certain religious holidays, but never before did they exercise those holidays at all. But how do you change your mindset coming in when it was never established during your marriage?
Winter Wheeler:
Right. And so what I have seen and heard about is that it's more so an issue when the soon-to-be-ex spouse takes up with someone who is more culturally aligned with them. So now they've got someone who wants to celebrate those holidays. Those cultural corks are now part of the norm. They're a part of every day for them. So they're now going to be part of your child's everyday life.
Winter Wheeler:
So, oh, it didn't matter to me that you weren't Jewish, but now suddenly it does matter to this new person and so now we're doing it all the time. It didn't matter that you weren't Muslim. Well, now it does. And so, what you need to do as the non-religious, non-ethnic whatever it is, you need to figure out all of the things. Spend your time learning about what these new cultural issues are.
Winter Wheeler:
Now, should you have done it at the beginning? Of course, you should have. But when the other spouse tells you, "I don't care, honey, I don't care. I love you. We're going to do this. And we'll just do whatever you want" you probably didn't bother to go ahead and learn anyway, Love conquers all.
Catherine:
Yeah. Until it doesn't.
Winter Wheeler:
Right. Until it doesn't. Until it doesn't.
Winter Wheeler:
At that point, you need to spend your time learning a whole lot about what these cultures are doing. What are the norms? What are these holidays? What are they actually doing? What are they actually teaching and learn about it. Is it something that you can just simply live with? Can you ignore it? Can you just let it go? Find out are they simply acknowledging these holidays because these are a high holy holidays or are they deeply dug into this or are they actually relatively secular and just celebrate these holidays because they do, right?
Catherine:
I love that. So check your emotion-
Winter Wheeler:
Those are things you need to know.
Catherine:
So check emotional intelligence before you look into these cultural changes that you're about to have.
Winter Wheeler:
Yes. Absolutely.
Catherine:
Because if I had little children and I don't right now, but if I did, and my ex-girlfriend now wanted to practice something, I would have to check myself because it becomes, I'm not doing it because of the girlfriend or what have you. And that's where you have to check yourself. And I love that. Learn about the religion, learn about the important holidays, and then say, "Think about the kids in the end." Would it hurt them to actually learn this? And let it go.
Winter Wheeler:
Right. Exactly.
Karen:
That is so difficult. That was my experience. My children were seven and five. And I tell people when I was going through my divorce, I wasn't just divorcing my husband. I was divorcing my lifestyle, everything I had been taught, which my children had been brought up and I can't do this anymore. So I had to go through the steps of not only allowing, but understanding that I can't change their lives to the extent I would like to because we had brought them up in that environment. So that was very difficult for me and I can understand the emotional, I don't want to say tragedy, but the upset that I had to experience, because I didn't understand that no one was going to follow my thoughts that this wasn't good for me then. I should've thought about that a long time ago. That was very difficult.
Winter Wheeler:
Right. And that is, I would call Grief. I talked about grief in one of my podcast episodes, Mediate Now, and grief is so many things, it manifests in so many different ways, but it's really the loss of anything that you believed was true or constant. It's the loss. It's the feeling that basically the ground has been taken from under you, something that you believed was going to be there for you is suddenly gone and you didn't want it gone. And there are ways to deal with that.
Catherine:
Also realizing that you thought you had something that you didn't, so you thought you had this lifestyle or this relationship because you created it and you tried so hard, but at the end of the day, you really didn't have what you were thinking you had.
Winter Wheeler:
Yes. It is so hard for human beings to understand that everything we have is fleeting. It's not real. Nothing that we have is real. The things that we have are tangible for the most part. My home is tangible, but if it burned down, it's gone. It is gone.
Winter Wheeler:
The people that we love can die at any point. And it is hard for us to think of that. The people that we love and that we have committed to can leave us, they can hurt us because they have free will. But we don't like to think of it that way, because it is just too much to think of every day, but those things can happen. And when they do, we have to grieve.
Winter Wheeler:
When it happens, we go through grief and then we need to go through this process in order to bring our lives back to center and we need to get back to the place where we remember that we, I, I am what I have. I am enough. I will be okay. How do I take care of myself? And I take care of myself by remembering that I can deal with other people in such a way that I get what I need, by taking out a lot of the emotion, by addressing other people's emotions in a non emotional way. And that is what the four cornerstones do for people.
Karen:
Yeah. I love that you said that. You said, "I still deserve what I need." A lot of people are immersed in guilt and their response to that is, "I don't deserve it. Just take it all. I'll figure this out." I personally went through some of that myself because I felt so bad. We see a lot of clients coming through, "I feel bad. I feel guilty." He said, "If I take his pension, that's the last straw." You're not taking anything. So it's having that emotional, how would we say it, intelligent conversation and understanding. I love that you say that because I think so many people struggle through that when they're trying to reconcile all of the emotions.
Winter Wheeler:
This is why I'm an advocate for divorce coaches. Somebody to help you and remind you that the response you're having isn't emotional response, it is not a long-term intelligent response. Don't give up everything you have. Don't accept peanuts when you deserve more.
Karen:
Yeah. And know what you have and what the division is, because it helps you navigate through those very emotional conversations, because it's already in your knowledge bank and you don't have to wonder, you know every topic that comes up, you don't have to wonder how that works.
Catherine:
This is why I love our portrait because we'll lay out there what you have and what the considerations are for it. And I always say, "Listen, if your mediator gets you too much and you want to give it back, I'll help you write the check." And not one person has asked me to write a check to give it back to their spouse. So you need to know what your assets are, what your debts are, what are the considerations? And then it's your divorce. If you feel that badly after knowing everything and being in the know about everything, then go ahead, negotiate away, whatever you want.
Catherine:
But if you don't have that financial clarity do not feel bad because you deserve it. And listen, I didn't feel bad. And again, I never had somebody telling me they want to give their money back.
Winter Wheeler:
Right. I've never heard anyone say either.
Catherine:
Yeah. I have on the other hand, had people coming up and you all probably do as well saying, "Oh my gosh, Catherine, I wish I knew you five years ago. I just decided to walk away from it all and now I regret it" and their lifestyle drastically changed and "I don't know how I'm going to ever catch up." So that's what we don't like to hear.
Karen:
Yeah. They were lost in those emotions. So Winter, let's talk about cornerstone three.
Winter Wheeler:
Yes. Cornerstone three. This will be a quicker one. Cultural immersion. So in this context, when we're talking about divorce and we know that we need to suddenly learn about another culture and we're making decisions for our family or for our children, we need to figure out what actually is happening. What may happen, what does this really look like for my kids going forward?
Winter Wheeler:
Try to get involved with the community. And if you're lucky enough to live somewhere where there's a large pocket of that community, go, see that community, go out there, try to make friends. It could be as simple as going to a restaurant and chatting up the waiter, signing up for language classes, if that applies, and really just putting yourself in a position in which you are no longer just a stranger, you're not kind of just on the periphery.
Winter Wheeler:
You don't want your soon-to-be ex-spouse being the only one who actually understands the nuances of this culture. You need to understand yourself so that there are no longer any surprises. Get out there and understand and immerse yourself. I know immerse immersion. It's not a trick. Immerse yourself in that culture and get involved.
Winter Wheeler:
I heard, I think yesterday or the day before when the new census data came out, the number of people who consider themselves to be multicultural, went up like 125%. So this is happening to a lot of people all over this country. We all need to be concerned about the cultures that we are engaging in and not concerned in a negative way, but interested.
Winter Wheeler:
Listen. And let's just back this up. Before you marry someone, learn about them. Stop marrying people because you, "Oh, I love him. He gives me butterflies." Honey, they all do. They all do. Okay? That's just how it works. Those are called hormones. That wears off.
Winter Wheeler:
Spend some time and learn. Is this really what you can live with if you had to be part of this culture without the spouse? Because that could definitely happen. At this point, what is it? Are we still at 50% divorce rate? I don't even know-
Karen:
Higher now.
Catherine:
Higher now.
Winter Wheeler:
Is it higher now? The odds are you could be part of this culture by yourself, right? This new culture, all by yourself. You have to understand it. Your children could be very interested in this new culture. They're half of that culture,
Catherine:
I know that people are listening right down there saying, "Shit, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that because he never wanted to do that." But I think that if you can change the way that you're looking at this, the situation will really change. You're not doing it for your ex, you're doing it so that you can experience what your children are going through and you can have intelligent, supportive conversations with them when they come back, because you're coming from a place of knowing rather than just shutting off, which we should never just shut anything off in life.
Catherine:
But you're doing it for you and your children because a lot of times, and I can attest to that, when you divorce, your spouse may be in a better financial situation so they take them on trips and that you've never been there and they come back and your kids tell you all about it, and you're sitting there feeling so sad that you didn't get to go on that trip with them, not necessarily your ex, but with your kids. And they've now experienced something that you have nothing to do with anymore.
Catherine:
This process, number three of the cultural immersion, is really for the benefit of yourself and your children, and always feeling connected to them. If they ended up not liking it, the culture, what they're now exposed to, you can have a conversation with them about it. It is part of their life. I love that. I love that thought process.
Winter Wheeler:
Not to be completely stereotypical, but when you're talking about a man who is moving on to a woman with a new culture, they are often very likely to just immerse themselves in that woman's new culture. They are. That becomes his new normal.
Winter Wheeler:
My personal experience as a second wife, my husband, he was very much immersed in his first wife's culture. I don't think he could tell you anything about it today. All he knows is mine, that's it. He's made attempts to learn my secondary language and learn about the country my family came from and that's it. So these things happen and we need to be aware, we need to be ready. And it's for the benefit of the children. It really, really is. It's also for your sanity, but it's also for the benefit of your children. We have to keep that in mind.
Karen:
Yeah. And when you broaden that out a little bit, when you're co-parenting, it helps to be able to support decisions one parent makes or the other based on their culture. Sometimes it's not an intentional response, or it definitely comes from a place of, "This is what I believe is right, because this is what I was taught" and so forth and so on. And so it kind of minimizes the emotional disparity there when you can come at it from a place of, "This is what they believe, and this is how it works" and things like that. I love that you said that. Yeah, that's excellent.
Winter Wheeler:
And that's actually the perfect segue into the last cornerstone, which is genuine empathy. If you can truly empathize with how the other person is having to move on, because we all have to move on and we don't always move on in the same way, but if you can understand that this is how they have to do it, then you're going to be more likely to be supportive and kind, and you'll understand it in a much easier, more sympathetic manner.
Winter Wheeler:
If what they need is to be with some new person or even get more in touch with their own background absent any other third party, then you need to let them do that because we all grieve a divorce in a different way, but you do need to be able to understand what they're going through and how it's happening.
Winter Wheeler:
And the more supportive we can be of the other person, the better it is for our children, because we don't want our ex-spouse to be a shell of a human being. Now, as much as we may personally want to see that that is not good for our children. Not at all, not at all. We have to have compassion for them and that compassion for someone that you did love at some point means you need to continue to love them. Is it a different type of love? Of course it is. But you need to keep in mind, you did love them enough to marry them and have children with them. You have to remember that.
Catherine:
That sounds great. And that sounds so much more difficult. I don't know if you're listening. So how do you recommend someone shows empathy to a spouse who you feel like has no empathy towards you?
Winter Wheeler:
It's not even showing them empathy. They don't need to know that you have the empathy. It's really for you.
Catherine:
That's a better way to look at it.
Winter Wheeler:
Yeah. In this scenario with the four cornerstones ... and it's different. This particular cornerstone, this fourth cornerstone is different when we apply it to different situations. It's about having that mindset for yourself. It's about reminding yourself that having some compassion and allowing that person the space they need is going to be what's best for you.
Catherine:
Which is much better to swallow, right? And so that again comes from being informed of where we go back to your other quotes is that you'll get what you need and a little bit of what you want. And so if you can keep that mindset, the empathy can set in for yourself rather than being an outpouring of stuff you're trying to take.
Winter Wheeler:
And truly, at the root of this, especially in a divorce context, the four cornerstones are self-centered. They are absolutely self-centered. They are designed to get you what you want. They have nothing to do with the other person. They are about setting yourself up to get what you need because the other person likely has no ability to communicate on such a high mature level.
Winter Wheeler:
Sometimes you have to be the adult in the room and the way you can be the adult in the room is to follow these four cornerstones. If you can follow all four and they all work together, got to do all four simultaneously, they will work you will be the adult, and the other person will likely not know that they are being somewhat manipulated.
Karen:
I'm just clarifying what I'm hearing from you. This has nothing to do with restoring relationship or repairing relationships and everything to do with negotiating to an end result to the benefit of you, yourself financially, and from a parenting perspective to the benefit of the children.
Winter Wheeler:
Sometimes that's the case. It depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to restore a relationship, you can use these four cornerstones and you can repair a relationship. However, if you have no intention of repairing a relationship, you can use these to give the appearance of wanting to restore a relationship.
Winter Wheeler:
It's all about civility. Truly. Being civil long enough to make sure you have what you need. You have to not focus on revenge. Revenge is not yours. It's not yours to seek. You have to not focus on getting your point across. The other person knows what your point is. You're mad. They don't care. They've told you they don't care. They've made that clear. So stop worrying about making sure they know you're mad. They know. What you need to focus on is getting what you want. What can you do to get what you want in a way that makes sense, in a way that makes the other person feel whole and complete, in a way that they don't feel that they're being taken advantage of, in a way that makes them feel that their needs, their rights are being respected?
Winter Wheeler:
And if you can follow these cornerstones, you can do that. Now, ideally, in my mediator-loving I love everybody little heart, you would actually mean these things, but you don't have to, and they still work.
Catherine:
And they allow you to move forward in a positive direction, which is what we truly believe in.
Winter Wheeler:
Yes. You can move forward.
Karen:
And hopefully ... Go ahead, Winter.
Winter Wheeler:
No. You can move forward positively for yourself, for the other person. And I think that's the beauty here is that you can move forward positively for everyone, whether you actually mean it or not. Everyone gets to move forward in a positive direction. You, your ex, your children. Your children will feel that everyone is getting along, everyone is trying to make this work, everyone wants the group dynamic to succeed. Everyone.
Karen:
I love it. And then, what if everyone could incorporate these four cornerstones into every relationship, how different our world would be?
Winter Wheeler:
Yes. I firmly believe that this can be applied to every single relationship that we have. Every single one.
Karen:
It's amazing.
Winter Wheeler:
I use it everywhere.
Karen:
I love it.
Catherine:
Who is this available to and how do you get it?
Winter Wheeler:
This is available to absolutely everyone. It is not only available to attorneys or to mediators. I encourage everyone to get involved here. You can watch my TEDx talk. You can just go onto YouTube and search my name. Winter Wheeler TEDx. Be careful. There are two, This one is called Mastering the Art of the Uncomfortable Conversation. But you can also go to my website, WinterWheeler.com.
Winter Wheeler:
I am offering a course in this. It is a 14-hour intensive course in which you can be certified in this method. You can have group classes, private classes, everything is there available to you.
Winter Wheeler:
I encourage people to reach out because this method can revolutionize the way you communicate with people.
Karen:
Oh, I love it. That's extraordinary, Winter. Thank you so much. This concludes this episode on getting clear on the four cornerstones of mediation. Thank you so much, Winter, for a great conversation.
Winter Wheeler:
Thank you for having me.
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by Susan Guthrie to discuss the topic: Divorce Attorney Secrets to Thriving BEYOND Your Divorce. Here’s an overview of Susan's experience:
Susan Guthrie, nationally recognized as one of the Top Family Law and Mediation Attorneys in the United States, has been helping individuals and families navigate separation and divorce for 30 years. Susan provides exclusively online divorce mediation and legal coaching services to select clients around the world through her business Divorce in a Better Way. Susan has also recently partnered with mediation legend, Forrest “Woody” Mosten, to create the Mosten Guthrie Academy to provide cutting edge gold-standard training for attorneys, mediators and other professionals.
As a leading dispute resolution professional, Susan is honored to serve on the Executive Council of the American Bar Association’s (ABA) Section of Dispute Resolution as the Membership Officer and to be a Co Chair of the Mediation Committee and Annual Advanced Mediation Skills Institute.
Susan is also an internationally well-regarded expert in online mediation and has been training colleagues and other professionals in the practical and ethical considerations of conducting their mediations online with her innovative programs and webinars and has helped more than 18,000 colleagues transition to an online practice.
In addition to her other professional endeavors, Susan is an award-winning podcast host. Having reached a podcast listening audience of almost 4 million in the past two years, Susan is the creator and host of the hit podcast, The Divorce and Beyond Podcast with Susan Guthrie, Esq. which debuted on iTunes “Top Podcasts for Self-Help” List. She recently launched The Learn to Mediate Online Podcast with Susan Guthrie, Esq. to bring current information, updates and news on ODR to her thousands of followers.
Susan has been featured in and on media outlets such as CNBC, Market Watch, Forbes, Eye on Chicago, WGN, the ABA’s Just Resolutions Magazine, Thrive Global, The Nook Online among others.
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Susan Guthrie to discuss Divorce Attorney Secrets to Thriving BEYOND Your Divorce.
Learn More >> https://www.divorceandbeyondpod.com
Connect with Susan on LinkedIn >> @Susan Guthrie
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen Chellew:
Welcome to we chat divorce. Catherine and I are so happy to welcome family attorney and mediator, Susan Guthrie to our podcast today. In this episode, we're going to discuss divorce attorney secrets to thriving beyond your divorce. But first, let me take just a couple of minutes to introduce Susan.
Karen Chellew:
Susan Guthrie, she's a nationally recognized as one of the top family law and mediation attorneys in the United States. She's been helping individuals and families navigate separation and divorce for 30 years. Susan provides exclusive online divorce mediation, and legal coaching services to select clients around the world, through her business, Divorce in a Better Way. She's also recently partnered with mediation legend Forrest Woody Mosten... Did I say his name right?
Susan Guthrie:
Mosten.
Karen Chellew:
Mosten, to create the Mosten Guthrie Academy to provide cutting edge gold standard training for attorneys, mediators and other professionals. In addition to her other professional endeavors, Susan is an award winning podcast host having reached a podcast, listening audience of almost four million in the past two years. Susan is the creator and host of the hit podcast, the divorce and beyond podcast with the Susan Guthrie, which debuted on iTunes top podcasts for self-help lists. She recently launched the learn to mediate online podcast with Susan Guthrie Esquire to bring current information, updates, and news on ODR to her thousands of followers. And that's just a small piece of all that Susan has done for us and our industry. Welcome, Susan.
Susan Guthrie:
Oh, thank you both for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you.
Catherine:
What I love about all that, I'm just going to call her Susan. That's how easy she is to talk to.
Susan Guthrie:
Oh, please. The worst part about being interviewed is hearing all of that first part.
Karen Chellew:
If I could give my personal accolades, I often think about you as the forerunner and paving the path so that all of us behind you have really good exposure in the new way of technology, mediation and to your point, Divorce in a Better Way. Thank you for all the work that you do, not only for people going through divorce, but for all of us professionals who are trying to help families just do it a better way.
Susan Guthrie:
Thank you. That actually makes me so happy because I do think it's a dual front approach. Let people know that they get divorced in a better way and let professionals know that people want that better way. There are people like both of you helping people to do that. I think it's just so incredibly important that people hear that message. I really appreciate that. Thank you.
Catherine:
It's really exciting that we're seeing a shift in power to the couple actually going through divorce and they're requiring a change. They need it. It's nice to see the professionals coming around to provide that for them.
Susan Guthrie:
I think we are seeing more and more professionals. I will a little bit throw my profession under the bus, the lawyer side of me, they're a little slower to come to the table. But I think it's really important, Catherine, what you just said, the people who are going through the experience of divorce want the control back. They're finally starting to understand something that's actually been true all along. It's like Dorothy, who always had the power to go back home if she just clicked those shoes. You never had to turn your power over to an attorney or a judge. But now I think it's a much better known paradigm that you can sit down and still control your life, even if you're going through the disruption of divorce.
Karen Chellew:
We've had the benefit of working with many attorneys who embrace the clients being informed and are trusting that more because I think also historically, maybe attorneys felt that only they knew how to do it, so they didn't really trust another way. But I think their trust level is also expanding into that realm of helping people divorce a better way. That's a good thing.
Susan Guthrie:
I think the more experienced the attorneys get with working with financial professionals like you and see just how much better the entire process is, for the attorneys included. We all know it's a tough way to make the living, honestly, to be there in the, I don't know what you want to call it, the sandbox of divorce day in and day out. When people are moving through the process in a more informed and supported fashion, I think everybody wins.
Catherine:
Oh, yeah. Otherwise you have one case for five years and who wants that?
Susan Guthrie:
[inaudible 00:05:33].
Catherine:
Everybody gets fed up at that point, and it's never a good outcome.
Karen Chellew:
To our topic today, divorce attorney secrets to thriving beyond your divorce, Susan, I think you have some hacks, tips and secrets for us. Let's go to the first one. What's the first mistake most people make when they're deciding to divorce?
Susan Guthrie:
I think that very first mistake is something along the lines of what we've just been talking about here. And that is that they automatically assume that it's going to be a knock-down drag-out battle and they start preparing themselves for that both mentally, as well as with the team that they may be pulling around them. And as we just talked about, it does not have to be that way. You almost make it a preordained conclusion if you go into it with that mindset. The very first thing I always tell people to do is take a breath, take a moment and educate yourself, much as we're talking about right here, about all the different ways and the different approaches there are these days to getting divorced, to going through the process and start thinking about what's going to work best for your family. As you both know, there's mediation, collaborative divorce, online processes. There's so many different ways that you can go through this. I think it's really important not to automatically assume that it's going to be what I call, your mama's divorce. Your mama's is divorce is the old world. Have your divorce and you get to curate that the way you want it.
Catherine:
I feel like that needs to come from an informed perspective, which is why we work so hard to just financially educate anyone who's going through a divorce process, because a lot of financial literacy really, [inaudible 00:07:40] in these divorce cases, which prompts people to take that jumpstart or leap into a battle in their head because they're afraid they won't understand the information that they need or will they get the information that they need. When they come to us first and we can do that, you really feel the temperature of everyone. They have a chance at mediation, because I feel like mediation should be the first step anyone takes to any part of negotiations. I don't think you need to jump into this, we need two attorneys to fight something out. If you're informed, you should be able to make smart decisions on your own.
Susan Guthrie:
You actually said, I think, the key word in all of this is education because face it, your average person going into divorce... One of the scary parts of it is it's usually something you haven't been through before. You may have been through it tangentially through family members or friends or something like that. But the biggest emotion people feel in the beginning of divorce is fear and it's because they don't know and don't understand. Well, it is truly one of those areas in life where knowledge is power. It breaks down to certain areas that you need to know. You've already mentioned the one that you two are such experts at, financial. You need to educate yourself in the financial. You also need to educate yourself on the side of things if you have children on what's going to actually work best for them. There's a lot of information around that. And then frankly, you need to think about the process itself because that's still that knee jerk thought, much as you just said, Catherine, about getting two attorneys to do all that negotiating for you.
Susan Guthrie:
You don't need to hire someone to negotiate for you. You can strategize with an attorney. You can learn how to negotiate by educating yourself, if it's not something that you're well versed in. That educational step, hugely important, and finding the right people and the right resources to learn from. Because unfortunately, the flip side of the plethora of information that exists in our world at our literal fingertips, there's a whole library in here, you don't know who you're getting information from always. You do need to vet your experts and make sure they're like the two of you, people who actually are subject matter experts in your area before you get your information from them.
Catherine:
It's hard when you have a lot of people chirping in your ear telling you what to do and what you shouldn't do. It frustrates me sometimes when they're trying to advise them to make decisions and they don't even know what the overall agreement would look like. They're one-off decisions that could really blow up your whole scenario. That's always a frustrating thing, just too many people in your ear.
Susan Guthrie:
Well, and doing that thing you just mentioned right about, people will start to make piecemeal decisions before they have a full picture of what the actual, I always call it the marital pie. You two have a much better, much more financially technical term for it, your divorce solution and your-
Catherine:
Our financial portrait.
Susan Guthrie:
Portrait. But I call it the financial pie or the marital pie. But until you know exactly what's in that pie, a big mistake people make is they start slicing their pie up and dividing it. Well, I'm going to keep the house, he's going to keep this, we're going to do this. Before they know whether can you afford the house? What's the debt on the house? Can you refinance the house? I mention the house just because as we all know, that's a big area and often one of the larger assets. But that is something that people jump into and start making those piecemeal decisions when really it should be made as a part of an entire whole.
Karen Chellew:
Oh, I'm so glad you said that, Susan, because it just seems like recently many of our clients who even have attorneys engaged, they're having discussions about dividing one of the larger assets without taking the whole pie, as you say, into consideration. That's red flags for us, to watch a client feel like they have to participate in those discussions when they don't have a full understanding of the entire portrait.
Susan Guthrie:
It's when mistakes get made. And honestly, the biggest issue when I see that happening, and maybe you two have seen this is, someone will say that they agree to one of these of the moment, piecemeal things, and then realize as things start to unfold, maybe that wasn't the right decision. They walk it back and to the other party that feels like reneging. That feels like going back on your word and now what have you done? It may have been done innocently, but you have now created a tension and a lack of trust because you've now turned around on something. It actually can lead to huge mistakes. It all goes back to what we talked about just a moment ago about you wouldn't make those mistakes if you took that time, before you jump into any of the dividing, to get educated, to understand what you have to get that financial portion.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely.
Catherine:
Exactly. It's that mistrust that you cannot get back when you're going through divorce, because there's already a break in trust which led you to divorce. But now that's when that 10% or less cases end up in these litigation battles.
Susan Guthrie:
Sure.
Catherine:
If it would have just started differently... And I bet you, if we had about 100 people on here who are divorced and never knew any of us or anyone like us, they're all probably saying, gosh, I wish I started it differently.
Susan Guthrie:
The start is really one of the key moments in time. I think it's important for people to understand because as we all know, and I've been through it, you go through a long period of time where, am I going to stay? Am I going to go? Am I going to stay? It's exhausting. And then you get to that and you build yourself up to either have the conversation with your spouse, that's very stressful or you hear it and it's a big pow because you maybe didn't know it was coming. But everybody in that moment thinks, well, I've got to rush out and get an attorney. I've got to go get the meanest attorney I can find in town. They just jump into the process and put it all into the hands of that attorney. And instead, there are so many steps that are actually better steps to take such as engaging financial experts to start the financial education, getting a coach who's going to help you with now all that emotional content that you have going on, doing your research, listening to podcasts, whatever your resources and then making decisions about, well, do we want to sit down and mediate?
Susan Guthrie:
Do we want to hire a collaborative professionals? Do we want to sit at the kitchen table and see what we can work out? There's a million different ways to come out this, as opposed to that, jump in, hire an attorney, and you're off to the races, or off to the war.
Karen Chellew:
And thinking that it's just going to be handled for them. And they're going to just arrive one day and get their share. I love that you-
Susan Guthrie:
My fair share. What I'm entitled to.
Catherine:
Yeah, what I'm entitled to.
Karen Chellew:
That's so true.
Catherine:
[crosstalk 00:15:32] I'm going to throw some of your colleagues under the bus a little bit as well is that we've seen people that go for their consult with an attorney because it's the meanest one or the sharkiest one, or what have you, who you have to have. And I have seen them promise things that really never play out in the long run and they don't even look at all of their assets. And it's all a depends type of scenario, but the person who's so emotionally charged going through, they're thinking that they're the shark or the best attorney, leaves their believing that's what they're entitled to or what they can expect down the road. It's really not the case. Again, I think going to an attorney consult can be very important, but it's the timing of it and what knowledge do you bring to that consult so that you don't get I call toxic positivity type of information. You get information based on data that you can process that later in a more reasonable way. That's another important thing.
Susan Guthrie:
So important. So important what you just said that I hope all of your listeners are hearing this and I will throw those same attorneys under the bus. Let me be really clear about this. No attorney in a consultation can promise you anything. No attorney at any point in your divorce can promise you anything as a result in your divorce. You know why? We don't wear the robe. We don't make the decisions. We don't have a crystal ball and we don't have a magic wand. None of that comes with a law degree. If you go to an attorney, here's another insider tip and that attorney promises you something, don't go back to that attorney. Do not retain that attorney. You are not paying for, what did you just call it, Catherine? It was so great.
Catherine:
Toxic positivity.
Susan Guthrie:
Toxic positivity. If you're going to pay for toxic positivity, what are you really paying for? Lies or untruths? It may feel good in that moment to hear what you want to hear. All an attorney can do is tell you a range of what we've seen in court or how we might see how south something might break down. But there is never an ability on the part of an attorney to promise you anything. A wonderful point for people to understand. And the other point that you made, I do think is also important for people to understand, if you're going to go for that consult, it can be a great educational experience. The more information you can give the consulting attorney ahead of time, such as the financial portrait, home run if you have something like that, because then they're able to give you insights, not promises, but insight about what's in there. So important.
Karen Chellew:
It is so important and I also love what you say about getting a divorce coach because so many people approach divorce, looking for emotional justice and they don't know the difference between divorce, division of assets, parenting plans, and support. I've just been through a really painful time in my life and I'm going through a painful time in my life and it's really not going to factor in a lot in the actual divorce process, as it relates to getting your assets divided and things like that. I love that you said, one of the first things is also to get a coach involved to help you make those differentiations.
Susan Guthrie:
It's probably one of my top tips. And again, some of my colleagues, at least in the legal sense, not my mediation colleagues as much, but my lawyer and attorney colleagues still haven't entirely embraced the concept of coaching. But when I work with a client who is working with a coach and they are able to sit down, hear what we're talking about, mull it over in their mind and then as we talked about in the beginning, make decisions for themselves, keep the power. They can do that so much more, in an easier fashion, also in a fashion that actually results in good decision-making. If you're going to make a decision based on that emotional justice, which by the way, does not occur. Karma, she may be a witch, but she doesn't really come along very often in a courtroom if ever, or in a divorce case it's just not the forum. It's not set up for that.
Susan Guthrie:
It is set up to divide your stuff and figure out how you're going to co-parent your kids. That's what it's about. It's not about he's a jerk or she's an over spender, or he did this, or she did that. It's not about that at all. Truly an important... I am a huge fan. For me, the ideal team in a divorce would be a good collaborative or divorce attorney, a good mediator, financial professionals like the two of you and a coach and or therapist, if we need also mental health help assistance or issues with the children. That sounds like a lot, your divorce is going to go much faster and much better to divorce in a better way, if you have that kind of support.
Karen Chellew:
Right.
Catherine:
So true. And then you don't live with regret of the decisions you made because to have that happily ever after divorce is prolonged when you're harboring a lot of regret and decisions that you know are not really for your best interests now. Now that the clouds have gone away a little bit and the dust settles and you sit there and you say, this is what I'm stuck with. It's harder for you to move on with your life because you constantly replay the divorce process in your head.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah. How many clients can I count who have I've spoken to a year down the road after the divorce or more who said, I cannot believe I fought over the blah, blah, blah. Insert anything, because I can tell you, playing cards, television sets, sofa. You name it. 15 more minutes with my kids and I know, please don't get upset with me parents, but 15 minutes and it costs you $25000 to litigate those 15 minutes and ramped up the animosity between you and your co-parent. Trust me, your kids would have been better off if you hadn't fought over those 15 minutes for six months. Absolutely.
Karen Chellew:
Having that focused approach, I think it does take a team. And for so long divorce has had this stigma about it, that it's embarrassing and something that is looked down on in our society. But if you liken it to the death of a loved one in your family, or even a surgery, a team is needed. It's very similar why a team is needed because there's a lot that you're working through in the divorce process, not only to maintain the family unit, but to make sure everyone's okay, for your own wellbeing, but also your financial wellbeing and to make really important legal decisions. There's a lot of different complexities that I think people don't realize. They look for the cheapest answer, not understanding how complex of a situation it is.
Susan Guthrie:
It's extremely complex and the more you layer into it, if you have no children, it still can be extremely complex on the financial side. Layer in children and depending on their ages and what's going on with them, you get an even more complex situation. And then you add the emotional contents on top of all of that. It's one of those things. I always find it interesting because I do find that people have that perception of, well, it's going to cost me a fortune to pull that team together. What they don't realize is their divorce is actually going to go much more quickly and be resolved much more quickly when they're informed and supported. When I say supported, I mean all those people.
Susan Guthrie:
I went to law school for three years, I've practiced for 30 plus years. I've learned a lot about finance. I've learned a lot about children over the years of my experience, but I'm not an expert in finance. I'm not an expert in children, despite being the stepmother to triplets. There are people who are trained in those areas and by the way, the way I've even learned what I do know is I've been lucky enough to work with fantastic professionals like you, where I've learned that information. They don't teach us about [inaudible 00:24:41] and 401ks and all that in law school. Guess what folks? Nope, I've learned in for people like you. Getting that information, understanding what you're work with, having your emotional control over or where you're at, actually means that your divorce will go by much more smoothly and quickly. And you will pay all of those professionals less than you would pay the shark attorney to drag your case into a courtroom and try it, which can take a year or two. These days, even longer with COVID.
Karen Chellew:
I'll agree with that.
Catherine:
I wanted to ask you a little bit about, and this [inaudible 00:25:19] to all of this. People don't really understand that in divorce, you're basically dealing with support, custody and equitable distribution. What we find really interesting and we're really actually proud of is that since we just stay in our zone, because we know what we're good at and we know what we're not good at, or we know there's other professionals good at, we like the team approach, but actually gathering the document and we're assessing the data. Couple of times we have one of the parties, typically the person who is not really the caregiver of the children all the time, now is starting to feel a lot of angst and says, "I'm not giving you any more forms until she agrees to custody of X, Y, and Z."
Catherine:
Our approach is, we collect your data. We assess it. We still need these documents. However, we're going to refer you to a mediator at this time, or we're going to refer you to a coach at this time and go talk about just the children thing, because they're not really going to do your financial decisions. And neither of you should make a financial agreement between yourselves, because we don't even have all the data for you to have all the knowledge you need. But really what happens is they then go off to who we refer them to and settle just their children. They're not doing these one-off agreements because a lot of people feel really pressured into, oh my gosh, they're going to take my kids if I don't agree to him [inaudible 00:26:44], or if she wants to keep the house, she has to do this. And we're going to deal with this all together. What is someone's choice other than what we're doing here? And is it somebody's choice to stop, take pause and say, "No, we're just going to go talk about the kids with a mediator or a coach and still gather those documents." I feel like that's how they keep their trust going, basically.
Susan Guthrie:
I think that's a fantastic suggestion actually, because yes, you do not... When we talked earlier about it's a puzzle and you need to put all the pieces together, taking the parenting plan outside of that is actually something that can be done and discussed at any time. Because what people need to understand, and I'm just going to speak about the law for a second, because I don't really think the law should have much to do with your children, but in a divorce, it does. The issue of what's in your children's best interests, which is the legal standard is something that is subject to be changed at any time. Even if you were to go and decide today that you think this particular parenting plan is in your children's best interests, if things were to change in the future, then that's up in the air that that can be revisited. It can always be revisited.
Susan Guthrie:
What I say to people, what you described, I call it the hostage-taking approach to divorce negotiations. It is the, well, I'm not going to give you what you want, or I'm going to take what you want if you don't give me what I want. I especially hate it when they do that with the children, but they will do it with other things that are important. I've seen them do it with the pets. I've seen them do it with the house. I've seen them do it with retirement. You name it, because that is a key thing that we all understand as professionals in this realm, spouses know how to push each other's buttons and they know where the weaknesses are. They will use those in a negotiation, which may be great if you're a cutthroat business deal guy.
Susan Guthrie:
But if you're trying to negotiate a settlement with someone that you're going to go forward and co-parent with, perhaps you don't want to come at it from that approach. Yes, I think it's a great approach. I think you can go to a mediator at any time in your divorce. And a good mediator is going to help you with the current issues, whatever those might be, as well as help you start working toward that final settlement. That's what people don't realize is they think they go to a mediation and it's all about what the final settlement is going to be. Very often in the beginning of a mediation, we are going to talk about how the kids are going to get to school every day for the next month, until school's out or how the bills are going to get paid while you're figuring out how the divorce is going to work out, how the mortgage is going to continue to get paid, or who's going to be responsible for doing this, that, or the other thing.
Susan Guthrie:
You can deal with immediate issues and you can always be working toward that final issue. But the key point is that you and Karen are working in the background to help continue pulling together the information that's needed so that when you have worked out what your, at least, current parenting is going to look like, you can move on to those financial issues.
Karen Chellew:
Agreed.
Catherine:
Don't you love when somebody comes to mediation, they say, well, we have an agreement. We just want to go over it with you.
Susan Guthrie:
Another situation that's hardly ever happened. Yes. [inaudible 00:30:21] to their credit, I don't want to deter anyone from talking to their spouse. One, I will say to everyone what I say to people in my opening week, we call it an opening statement in mediation, what the mediator says. It is perfectly acceptable to say, I hear what you're saying. I understand it. If you've asked the questions that you need to ask, let me think about it. I'm open-minded but I want to think about it and not make a decision right now. Well, that is the trap that people fall into all the time. And I always say, sounds great. I hear you. I need to talk to my financial advisor. I need to talk to my attorney. Give me some time to think about it and let's talk about it more with our mediator. Perfectly acceptable and actually a home run for everyone.
Susan Guthrie:
Because then when you come to mediation, you're ready to talk about it but with someone who's going to help you. That's the other thing people need to know, is that your mediator... Somebody said to me the other day in a mediation, Susan, he did this when we were married and don't you think that's unfair? Can you believe he did that? Don't you think that's unfair? Is that right that he did that? It doesn't matter what I think that's not my role at all. I actually didn't agree with her and I thought it wasn't that bad, but am I going to say that in a mediation? No, it has no bearing on anything. It's that she thinks that, so we need to deal with that in that context, but everybody thinks their mediator's going to make decisions for them.
Susan Guthrie:
That's absolutely not our role. Maybe he doesn't know she thought that was unfair. Maybe he doesn't know that she thinks he shouldn't have done that and maybe we need to talk about that. There was value in what she was saying, but she was looking for me to be her, the emotional justice that you were talking about, Karen, and that's not your mediator's role. But your mediator is there to say, maybe you need to talk to Tom. Have you ever expressed this to Tom, Mary? Maybe we should have a conversation about that. Do you think it would be helpful?
Catherine:
Right, which is great. We do that with our financial portrait, not to mediate them but we'll often hear, this was a premarital, I put 200 000 into our home. I want that back. Okay, well, how did you put the 200? Do you have a copy of the check that we can include in your portrait? Oh no, but I have a tax document and wife is unsure if it's premarital not. Our notation to the mediator is exactly this, husband is claiming he has a premarital portion. We requested these documents. They were not received. We're not telling him, even though we know it's not going to be considered premarital, he has no proof, but she's believing him because he's bullying her into it. And we can't say to her, it's not premarital because we're not going to meddle with what the mediator is going to do, or if they go to attorneys.
Catherine:
But we put enough in there that she's questing that. She says, "I'm not agreeing with you. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I just need to see this document." If we can't get it, then the next professional has [inaudible 00:33:30] just asked for that document. But their emotions are being heard. He's being heard. He realizes that it's not going to be considered premarital before he gets to that mediation. That little bit of the fight goes down. It's really, for us, rewarding to see them transform a little bit into, okay, maybe we will talk this out. And then the professional gets the document and knows exactly where they're coming from because we've wound some of it. It really does make a better process for everyone. When again, you need the knowledge.
Susan Guthrie:
It's critical. Part of that is two people having just misunderstandings about what the law is and flip of that, just because the law says it doesn't mean you two can't agree to do something different. Maybe in that particular case, the wife would say, well, I do remember you put in 20 000. I remember that really distinctly. I agree that it is absolutely fair that you get that 20 000 back. The other 180 is in the mix. I think we need to talk more about that. Now that may not be what a judge would do, but in mediation they get to be guided by their own moral compass and by their own definitions of fairness, within the context of, they have to come to an agreement. I get people all the time and I'm sure... Well, that's not fair or that's not what I'm entitled to. Who knows what's fair and who knows what's entitled to? What can you live with? What works for you and what works for your family as you move forward? Because I always say to people, yes, everything has a dollar sign, but always keep in mind, your peace of mind has a dollar sign attached too, and that you're going to spend a lot of money arguing over that television set probably much more than your peace of mind was worth.
Karen Chellew:
I think that comes from a space of just having some control. But when you're informed and you have a team, you won't even be fighting over a television or a sofa, you'll know the parameters of what's going to benefit you most. And that's where your focus will be. That's great. Susan, what last word would you like to leave with people about their divorce experience?
Susan Guthrie:
You used the words earlier, Karen, and I think it's important to say them again, divorce is so viewed as a shameful and stigmatized experience in our lives. I actually read a quote and I think it was a quote from Jennifer Aniston, she's been married and divorced twice. And she said to a reporter, I consider both of my marriages very successful. They just didn't last forever.
Karen Chellew:
That's what I say.
Susan Guthrie:
I've been married twice and divorced once. One, I would love it if we can start twisting that or inserting that thought into our brains as we go into divorce. And the other aspect of this that I want people to just consider is that instead of being a horrible, terrible experience of life and a horrible thing to happen to you, consider that divorce is an opportunity.
Susan Guthrie:
It is an opportunity for a new beyond. That's why my podcast is divorced and beyond. It's your opportunity to create a whole new future and truly in life, you can count on one hand the times in your life where you have those opportunities to make major changes to fit in with what you truly want. And we change and evolve as we grow. If you can view divorce as an opportunity, as opposed to a terrible, horrible thing that is happening to you, I think that you will find that you can divorce in a better way.
Karen Chellew:
I agree. [crosstalk 00:37:34].
Catherine:
Amen to that.
Karen Chellew:
Thank you so much. This concludes this episode on divorce attorney secrets to thriving beyond your divorce. Thank you Susan, for a great conversation.
Susan Guthrie:
Thank you both for having me. I truly enjoyed this. Thank you.
Catherine:
Thank you.
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by Shawna Woods to discuss the topic: Prenuptial and Post Nuptial Agreements. Here’s an overview of Shawna's experience:
Shawna Woods is the Managing Partner of the Atlanta Divorce Law Group. She has been practicing exclusively in Family Law for 18 years. She is the host of the soon to be launched Happily Ever After Divorce Podcasts and regularly appears as a guest on the firm’s Facebook Live.
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Shawna Woods to discuss Prenup, Do They Help or Hurt?
Learn More >>www.atlantadivorcelawgroup.com
Connect with Shawna on LinkedIn >> @Shawna Woods
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Catherine and I are so happy today to welcome Attorney Shawna Woods to our podcast today. Welcome Shawna.
Shawna Woods:
Thanks for having me guys. I'm really happy to be here.
Catherine:
We're so excited.
Karen:
Yeah, we really are. And I'm very excited because in this episode, we're going to be discussing Prenups. Do they help or hurt? How many times do we hear that from clients? But first, let me just take a few minutes to introduce you, Shawna. Shawna is the managing partner of the Atlanta Divorce Law Group. She's been practicing exclusively in family law for 18 years. You don't look old enough, Shawna, I have to say. Shawna is the host of the soon to be launched Happily Ever After divorce podcast and regularly appears as a guest on the firm's Facebook Lives. Check them out. We'll have a link on this podcast after you listen to it. So welcome Shawna.
Shawna Woods:
Thank you. Thanks again. I'm really happy to be here.
Catherine:
It's so great, because we actually met through a mutual client.
Shawna Woods:
We did. Well, I had a client singing your praises and it was just serendipity that the attorney who was representing her was not available the day to take the call and we got on and I've just had such a wonderful time chatting with you and that you were so knowledgeable. And got to the point and we could understand, yes, this is what we need to be recommending for the client. Financially, it was the best thing for her. And I really did appreciate your approach to it.
Catherine:
Oh, and likewise. We appreciated yours. And we're so excited to meet you and have that conversation, because when we can work together, as a team, and come together with all the information that we need and the client is provided with the knowledge that they need, it just lets you do what you're trained to do in a much better fashion for them. So you get to just use your legal expertise and help them get what they should be getting.
Shawna Woods:
Absolutely. And I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up a client and go, you know what? My Divorce Solution would be really good with them. Let's send them over there now.
Catherine:
That's awesome. That's so awesome. Thank you so much for that. We really appreciate that. And today's conversation really led through our conversation as well. When we were talking to you about what is trending right now, we're getting a lot of people who are calling us, who are saying, you know what, we think we should get a prenup, which is gathering all that same information for your financial portrait, which has been great. But there are a lot of fears on what's the good, what's the bad, and what's the ugly, and what's the pretty about it.
Shawna Woods:
Yeah. I think that people do have kind of a misconception that if your fiance, or even somebody where you're talking getting married, and someone brings up a prenuptial agreement that they're looking and thinking, oh, this isn't going to work down the road. And in fact it can be the exact opposite is that someone's looking at it in a very realistic and loving manner saying, you know what, if this doesn't work out, right, we're going to work really hard, because we all know marriage is work, right? It is not an easy thing. If this does not work out, let's decide right now, while we're in a good space, why we're loving each other, why we're really appreciative of each other, let's decide how we're going to divide things in the event that it doesn't work out, instead of coming at it when you're hurt, and when you're emotional. And when there's been a lot of baggage dragged into it when you're at that divorce state. So having a prenuptial agreement, I think, is a really loving thing to do.
Karen:
I love that approach. And so many couples that come to us, and I'm sure to you as well, Shawna, approaching divorce, had they had those conversations way back when they got married, they would be better positioned to contemplate and make really good decisions for themselves instead of recreating most of their married life after 20, 30, 10, 3 years even, it's very difficult. And to your point, emotional. So, having those conversations is so important, and helpful, and loving. I love that you're using the word loving.
Shawna Woods:
Yeah, I do think it can be. And I appreciate that. And I think that a lot of people again have that kind of misconception, oh, this is to protect the wealthy one, or the person who has assets. And in fact, if you are planning on having children, and your idea, and you both have discussed that, is that somebody who's going to stay home and raise the children and give up a career, or the opportunity to build their work, work history, then how does that look like if this doesn't work out once the children are grown, right? And that can be a very good protection for people.
Catherine:
Yeah. So that leads me to a couple of questions, and what you and Karen were saying just a second ago, it also can alleviate that. For all of us, who've been married when you were married 20 years, over those 20 years, you know your relationship's [not hard 00:05:26], but how many people throw out that threat
of divorce? I'm going to threaten you, and so once that word comes into the conversation, which is never really very good, it can comes in continually. So if you had a prenup, maybe that word wouldn't be thrown around so much, because it's not a threat any longer.
Shawna Woods:
Right, because you kind of know what's going to happen. You don't have that fear of the unknown. What happens to me if I don't have the financial stability? What happens to, do I have to go out and get a job while I'm raising kids? How is that going to look? What does my future look like? You can really just concentrate on what's going on in the marriage, right? And try to fix it without that then, what you said, Catherine, is that threat, which we really hate, right? Because that's that controlling. That's that financial control that we've seen so often in some marriages.
Karen:
Yeah. Who of us haven't done that 15 or more times anyway? It's just a natural response when you're an argument. That's it, I'm done.
Shawna Woods:
I'm done.
Karen:
I'm done.
Catherine:
Yes. Exactly. Yeah.
Karen:
But when it goes up further than that, this is something that people should consider, and I think one of the topics we're going to talk about is the prenup agreement for anyone and everyone? Are there cases that it's better not to have one? Or would you recommend that everyone start their family, their marriage with a prenup?
Shawna Woods:
I think prenups really are and should be for everyone, at least having that discussion. What does this look like for us? One of the things I like about having prenuptial agreements, because I just had a case yesterday where this lady had come in and said, "Well, he said, when we were getting married, he had all this money." Turns out he didn't. With a prenuptial agreement, you both have to sign affidavits that show, what are your assets? And what are your debts? Because that's an important part of it, is that sometimes they walk into a marriage not knowing that the person they're getting married too has a big tax step. Right? And they don't want to be sharing in that, maybe regardless, but definitely not in the case of a divorce. So you have to be honest and open. That's one of the requirements of a prenuptial agreement is you both have to sign affidavits and say, here are our assets and debts.
Shawna Woods:
Even if your assets and debts are my vehicle because I just graduated college, right? You want to say, this is what we have, and what about this going forward? One of the things that we find is really helpful for so many people want to start small businesses, right? And you have a business partner that is not your marriage partner, and what happens in the event of a divorce, because your portion of the business can be considered marital, right? And so, that's one of the things I think is really important as we're starting out, the thinking about the future of these assets, do we want a small business to be considered a marital asset or not? And it's an important conversation to have early on.
Karen:
Right? And
Catherine:
Karen:
Go ahead, Catherine.
Catherine:
It's really important, as a matter of fact, Karen and I had this conversation because I just got remarried two years ago. But when we talked about me having a prenup, I said to Karen, "Well, what about you getting a postnup?" Because she's married, so it's a really interesting, we started business later in life, the two of us together. So, we have the postnup and the prenup, and of course we can talk about a postnup on another podcast, because it's so much to talk about. It's another great tool for people who are just thinking about it, or rather stay married, but want a financial agreement.
Catherine:
I do want to ask you something that was the second question from what you said earlier, before I forget, you talked about if you plan to have children and what's going to happen, you can lay that out in your prenup. Well, what if things change while you're married, and now what you thought about in the prenup, one of you, or both of you, don't agree with it. I guess if both of you, it doesn't matter, but what if you now don't agree with that anticipation that you tried to plan out.
Shawna Woods:
So yeah, and I want to be very clear that you can't do child support or child custody in a prenuptial agreement. That's not on the table. I think what we're both talking about, just want to be clear for the people listening, what we're both talking about is what about spousal support, right? What is spousal support look like if you both, let's assume that both parties have decided you're going to stay home with the children until they're school age. Right? And then they get to be school age, and lo and behold, there's a lot of other stuff that goes on with kids in school age too. There's running them back and forth to extracurriculars, and picking them up. And gosh, look at all that aftercare you're going to have to spend, if you go back to work. And that can be, maybe a renegotiation to a postnuptial agreement. Right? And I do think that having those initial conversations, but if you do change your mind, if you have to have that conversation with your spouse, right? Are we still on the same page? Do we still agree here?
Karen:
Absolutely. I have a really good friend who just got married last year, and her husband already had a business with third parties, plural. And he just happened to be mentioning that he was getting married at a board meeting. And all of a sudden he got the news, you have to get a prenup, because any spouse who's coming on board is not going to be an owner of this company. And that was news to both of them. And so they had to negotiate a prenup. And to your point, she had to understand that if she was going to be engaging, and participating, and supporting the business, that doesn't mean she would have ownership. So can you talk a little bit about how those things play out, especially when a spouse is disqualified, for lack of a better word, before they're even married, due to the operating agreement or the shareholder agreement?
Shawna Woods:
So those are very, very interesting topics. And again, there are so many people who are small business owners now, or have a portion of the business. And the way it works, at least here in Georgia, is the business, whether you own it a whole, or you own it with a partner, the growth on the business from the date of the marriage until the date of the divorce is considered a marital asset, and a forensic accountant comes in and helps us decide what the value of that business is. Right?
Shawna Woods:
Well, if the majority of the marital estate really is the value of that business, and the court wouldn't order, oh, the spouse gets to now step into the business. What the court would order was the spouse who has ownership in the business will then have to pay out to the other spouse. But if you have a small business, right, you can't really deplete all the cash out of that and keep running that small business. And that is one of the things I think people with small business and people who have partners who are getting married, do want to have that discussion, because in the event of a divorce, is this business going to tank because your spouse was coming after a portion of the assets of the business. Right? And that's really what we look at, is not necessarily, because an operation agreement is not going to let the spouse come in and run it. But a court could order, this person, this wife, this husband to say, you need to pay them a hundred thousand dollars in 30 days, chop, chop. That can ruin a business really quickly.
Karen:
Right. Absolutely.
Catherine:
That's really a great point. Because again, this is about having all the details in your agreement, right? So something that would be easily overlooked. Just saying, okay, I have this prenup, you don't get the business, but really what about the growth of that business during your marriage?
Karen:
Right. Right.
Shawna Woods:
And you'd have to look at the investments. Another thing that I hear very commonly is somebody will say, oh, I bought the house prior to marriage, it's mine. And I'll say...
Karen:
Partly.
Shawna Woods:
So true. If you purchased a house prior to marriage, yes there is some separate property asset there. Here in Georgia, if you put your spouse's name on it, you just gifted the whole thing to the marriage, if you don't, but you continue to pay on it during that marriage, that growth during the marriage is still considered marital. So if that is something that you both are looking at as, oh no, we see this as this one spouse's separate property, you need to spell that out.
Catherine:
So what is the difference between, you mentioned earlier, and I'm well aware of the couples now coming in getting into marriages, and they keep their accounts separate, and maybe have a joint account. Is having those statements from date of marriage, keeping them on record, enough to protect your premarital asset, or do they need to have the prenup?
Shawna Woods:
Oh, they definitely need to have the prenuptial agreement. Even in Georgia, it doesn't matter whose name it's in. Right. They consider if I was married at the moment, they would consider my earnings, marital earnings, and even if I put it in an account in just my name, that's still marital earnings. So just having [inaudible 00:15:26], and I do, I hear that a lot too. Oh, don't worry, we kept everything separate. Okay, but that's not enough. Right? You really do have to spell out, and I like to very well spell out, not only what is separate property, but what is marital property? What are we going to specifically consider marital property to be. If we buy a home together, and put it joint names, that's marital property. Okay. Now how are we going to divide it? Is it going to be pro-rata, what we put into it? Or is it just going to be 50/50.
Karen:
Right. And Georgia is an equitable distribution state, different from the community property states.
Shawna Woods:
It is.
Karen:
Like California, Arizona, and so forth.
Shawna Woods:
Yeah. It almost works out to be the same thing a lot of times. I think it just adds argument, unfortunately,
Catherine:
Exactly.
Shawna Woods:
Equitable, meaning what's fair. And equal, of course, meaning 50/50 and [inaudible 00:16:23] community property states are. Georgia courts really start out with what's fair being 50/50, but they let you argue why it's not in your particular case. And so it does open up a lot of doors for litigation if you don't have that prenuptial agreement in place.
Karen:
Absolutely. And Shawna, just to that point, can people come to us when they're considering a prenup, or a divorce, that financial portrait that we built for them helps them collect all of that documentation. So, you know when it's delivered to you, you're not only looking at a number on a report, you get to look at the documents that support it. So you get to look at the operating agreements, and you get to look at all
of the different documents that would support your client's claim for whatever that may be or would support the prenup disclosure. Is that what you call it? A disclosure for a prenup?
Shawna Woods:
Yeah. And a disclosure is a great, yeah. A great term for that. Absolutely. And that is so very helpful. And it's not that our clients, I would say, are unsophisticated, but it does take nuance to get all of that stuff together and look at what is a financial portrait.
Catherine:
Yeah, your attorneys are also intimidating for a lot of people. I mean, I love you. You're great, from the minute I started talking to you, I find you very easy talk to you. I would go to lunch with you. I think you're a fabulous, Karen felt the same way. But for a lot of people who are in this emotional state where they're afraid to even talk about a prenup or anything, because you're talking about divorce before you're married a lot of people feel like, going to the attorney almost puts them at a tense scenario, right? When they come to us, what I loved about what we do now with the prenups is that, and everything else, is we turn it into a financial exercise for our clients.
Catherine:
And so they're coming in at a really, you know, this is just an exercise. We're getting everything together to deliver it to your attorney. And that's why we love working with attorneys like you, is because we just make this transition for everyone so much smoother. And it can be more loving, if it's treated like an exercise instead of something that's torture for somebody else. Because there's always one person that doesn't want to do all the data collecting, or one person that doesn't want to talk about it, because they just don't want to, or they're just agreeing to go there. So I find this to be really exciting for not only our business, but for what we're doing, working with you, and the people who are really trying to be smart about these decisions going into them.
Shawna Woods:
I absolutely agree. I can't tell you how many times I'll sit across from somebody and I start talking about the disclosure. It was Karen who said the disclosure statement, and I get this kind of blank look on the other side. And I'm like, okay, I need to walk them through this, but that's not what I do. Right? That's that's not my forte, and I love having you guys, and I feel the same way about both of you. I was like, this is such a fun connection. And it's great when I have, not only this wonderful company where I can send clients, but it's like I really like them and you're going to love them too. And I do think that what you guys do is so very important. People are waiting now a little bit later to get married, right? And they kind of already started having 401ks, and maybe some assets, and helping them understand what their financial position really is right now is important. And I really love that about you guys.
Catherine:
Yeah. And listen, we can talk all the legal stuff. I mean, you have to have really serious conversations with these individuals. So if you have to mucky the waters by talking about their financials and get them in this blank state, or get them in this, it's so nice when we send them over, and we don't have to get into those conversations. Everybody stays in their zone. And your conversations are more bearable when everybody knows what they're dealing with because you bring up really great points about the details.
Shawna Woods:
Yeah, I actually can give really good advice when I know what the details are.
Catherine:
I like that.
Karen:
I love that quote. That's the best quote.
Catherine:
We're going to have to do this, because I totally agree.
Karen:
Shawna, you talked about that a prenup cannot include child support, child custody discussions. Are there other things that cannot be included in a prenup? And are there things that can be included in a prenup that people may not think about?
Shawna Woods:
I think there are some clauses in there. I call them the penalty clause. And some of those things are when you think about infidelity, if that has been an issue in their relationship, And they kind of want to go forward saying, all right, we're both in this, but one partner has already experienced the other partner having stepped outside of the relationship. There are times when they put, what I call the penalty clauses in. It's like, all right, if this is the cause of the breakup, the marriage is that you're stepping outside of the marriage, or if you're stepping outside the marriage, this is going to shift how we separate things, or this is going to shift spousal support. And so, I think it's important for people who may have those issues, not only to get a prenuptial agreement, but also to have had some pre-marriage counseling, right? To ensure that these are the things that they're looking at important.
Shawna Woods:
Primarily not included in a prenuptial agreement is anything to do with the children, because all of courts are going to tell you, it is the purview of the court to decide what's in the best interest of the children, at the time. Not pre-planning it. And it makes sense, right? Because this unknown child, we don't know who's going to end up being the primary parent. Or a default, we think it's going to be mom. And sometimes it's really not, and same with child support. It's all determined, the needs of the child based on calculators of where the parties are living at the time, because you have to do all that cost of living things. So those are the things that can't be included in a prenuptial agreement.
Shawna Woods:
What you really look for is, is this prenuptial agreement so one-sided, right? Is it so one-sided that it's just unconscionable, right? And those would be really those situations where you have somebody who's wealthy, and usually significantly older than the other party, and says, I get everything and you get nothing. Those aren't really going to be held up in court.
Karen:
All right. And you mentioned the state, as it relates to the kids, where they're living at the time, if a prenup is drafted in Georgia, and the couple moves to Utah, is it still enforced?
Shawna Woods:
It's still enforceable since we have full faith and credit with all of the states in the United States, and even in the prenuptial agreement, and you've seen these in other contracts, I'm sure you guys have too. It'll say if this has to be decided, it's to be decided on the laws based on Georgia. Right?
Karen:
Okay.
Shawna Woods:
So, we signed something for our car insurance that says something about Delaware, right? That's always where they, so that's the same thing. It's a contract. And that's exactly what a prenuptial agreement is. I think what people don't realize is that when they get married, yes, it is a wonderful, loving bond, but it's also a contract, and it's a contract with you, your spouse, and the state. And the prenuptial agreement is to say, no, no, we don't want the state deciding it, we're making those contracts ourselves.
Catherine:
Okay. I love that look at it. I never heard that before, said like that.
Karen:
Yeah.
Catherine:
Yeah.
Karen:
That's very good.
Catherine:
Yeah. That's very good.
Shawna Woods:
Yeah. Once you look at it that way, because people don't realize how much the state is going to get involved in your marriage if this goes to a divorce, and for most people, we don't want them involved.
Catherine:
Right. Exactly.
Karen:
So I've heard some, sorry Catherine, did I just cut you off?
Catherine:
No, go ahead.
Karen:
Shawna, I've heard some attorneys ask initially when a couple's going through divorce and they have a prenup, they'll throw in the phrase to sunset. I think it's called the sunset clause. Have you heard of that? Like it makes it non-valid after so many years, and maybe that's
Shawna Woods:
A sunset clause.
Karen:
I think it's called the sunset clause.
Shawna Woods:
I haven't heard of that in particular. I think what you're probably, it is like, oh, well that was so long ago. There is certain ways to, what I call attack a prenuptial agreement. One would be the one I talked about earlier, where it's simply unconscionable. You wrote it, or whoever wrote it was just written in a way it was just really unfair to one person.
Shawna Woods:
A second way would be if you signed it like two weeks from a wedding, that's really frowned upon. Right? Think about all of the things that we've got family coming in, we've got the flowers picked out, we've got the cake coming. And all of a sudden here sign this prenuptial agreement. It's a little bit of a duress, right? That's really unfair.
Karen:
And so many are.
Shawna Woods:
So many are. I do strongly suggest, is that at least two months prior to a wedding. One of the things with what I think you're talking about Karen with a sunset clause is so much has changed. That's one way they talk that, can we attack this? So much has changed from the time that we decided this prenuptial agreement that it's no longer fair, right? Because there's always a fairness presumption to it. Those are kind of rare, but they could happen, and give you maybe a 40 year marriage, say you had an idea that you were both could have W2 jobs and somebody was going to stay home, but happens if you had a special needs child who actually you have to stay home for 30 years with, right? What happens then? Or what happens in those types of things? It's something so unusual happen that this is no longer a fair prenuptial agreement. We try to kind of foresee certain things. Right? But those do happen on rare occasion.
Karen:
Right. And then that's all the way back to Catherine's point earlier where she asks questions that may require a postnup agreement to make the amendments and so forth. Yeah.
Karen:
Another thing we see are people coming in, in this age of technology, so many people think, well, I can just go get a form online. I can just go get divorced online, and our eyes get this big. And so they'll come in and we'll say, well, we want both of you to go get this prenup interpreted, and come back to us so we can help you get the documentation, because it's sometimes very clear that that form was just downloaded from some random website. So can you talk about the importance of a professional, helping to draft these prenups so that both parties are protected?
Shawna Woods:
Absolutely. I can actually kind of give an example of the danger zone. I had a gentleman come to me, he has small business. Most of their asset was in the small business. He has put his life and soul into this [inaudible 00:28:23], 12 hour days. We all know those things. And they had a 25 year marriage. He says, well, I have a credential agreement. I said great, let me look at it. And I said, this isn't worth the paper it's written on. And he was shocked. And well, what do you mean? Why not? I said, well, because the prenuptial agreement is very statute-based. Okay? You pull it off the internet, now 25 years ago, I don't think it was off the internet. I think he probably just like tried to copy someone else's, right? But it's very statute-based and it's based on the state that you're going to be getting married in. Right? And they have certain requirements that they're not necessarily going to be in this thing that you just pulled off the internet. And if those requirements are not met, it's invalid. Immediately out the window.
Shawna Woods:
Secondly, how we attorneys, we speak that special little language. Everybody speaks a special language. And I always use the example, my mechanic speaks a special language that I don't understand. Okay. I speak a special language for the courts. And that's just the way we're trained. The courts are going to read our language and know what it says. It doesn't always make common sense, y'all. We have to word it in a certain way that the courts have told us, this is what this word or this phrase means, right?
Catherine:
Yeah. I don't speak that language. I get very frustrated reading it.
Karen:
That's why I call you all word assassins. But you have to be.
Shawna Woods:
I take it, I accept that. I understand. Yeah. But the same with divorce settlement agreements, people come to me afterwards and say, "Hey, can you fix this?" I'm like, "No, you messed it up so much I can't even fix it."
Karen:
Oh, it's so true. It's so true. So what else would make a prenup or a postnup non-enforceable. Obviously downloading an agreement, that's not, what do you call it? It's not according to statute, as you said, but what would be another reason?
Shawna Woods:
A couple other reasons, one of the things, if you are addressing spousal support here in the State of Georgia, at least, and of course, that's all I can speak to, but you have to have two witnesses in addition to the notary, right? So if you don't have those, and you've addressed spousal support, again, that's out the window. Not releasing your financials or defrauding on your financials, not completely saying what is the value of something. One of the reasons I actually, with small business owners. I tell them, go get just a really quick and dirty, but go get someone to value the business, and go with the highest value, right? Because you don't want someone to come back and say, oh, they low balled me. I didn't really understand that their business was worth three million dollars when we got married.
Shawna Woods:
And again, with small business owners, you're like, well, it's not worth that much. I can't take that much out. No, but that's what it's worth. I'm putting that in quotations when the court puts a value on it. Right. So definitely get evaluated. Use someone like, you know, use you guys, My Divorce Solution to actually have your financials done. They're done and understanding, right? It's done, a professional has done this. I don't have to write what I think my pension is worth, I actually know what my pension is worth. And you guys know that's a big one.
Catherine:
Yeah, absolutely Shawna. I love that you say that.
Karen:
I know Catherine has to talk to a lot of people about why giving up that pension could be detrimental, because they never really think about it from the perspective that they're from their retirement, they're more afraid, or pensive because someone doesn't want to share the pension.
Shawna Woods:
Right.
Karen:
We go through that a lot.
Catherine:
How does a prenup hold up in the event of a death?
Shawna Woods:
So you're really looking at the last will and testament, as far as death, right? But I do say a prenuptial and a last will and a testament should kind of mirror each other if that's what you want. A prenuptial agreement's whole purpose is in the dissolution of a marriage. Right? But if you have a prenuptial agreement, and this often comes into play, to your point, is when you have second or third marriages, and you have grown children that you want to leave your wealth too. Right? And so if you have the last will and testament, that reads, here's what I want to leave to my children. And a prenuptial agreement that says, we've already said that was separate property. Right? So that you don't have a spouse than trying to make a claim on a will when you already have that prenuptial agreement. All right. You've got two contracts.
Karen:
What if they don't agree? Which is the reigning document? Let's just say the prenup says...
Catherine:
If they're not aligned.
Karen:
Yeah. Yeah. So the prenup says, I keep my 401k, but the will says all of my assets go to my wife.
Shawna Woods:
Those two actually do agree.
Karen:
Okay.
Shawna Woods:
Because I keep my 401k. So when I die, I can say where it goes.
Karen:
Oh.
Catherine:
Wow.
Karen:
Wow. You're so smart.
Catherine:
That's a good one. Yeah.
Shawna Woods:
No, we just had that one come up a couple of times.
Catherine:
Can you just give me the data, and then you interpret it. [inaudible 00:34:20].
Karen:
We could ask questions all day long, but I know what a lot of couples would want to ask you is, can we both use the same attorney?
Shawna Woods:
Yeah. I mean, technically you can, but you should not. The reason being is you're going to get legal advice coming in to see an attorney. You're going to get the legal advice of here's how we should word it, right, to protect you. You should have your spouse, or your potential spouse, should have an attorney representing them that says, okay, this is how we want them to word it, to protect them. Right? And it doesn't mean it has to get contentious, you guys. It doesn't mean we're going to blow this up and it's going to get super expensive. It's just that each one should have somebody who says, I have informed my client, and we have an attorney affidavit. They're not required in the State of Georgia, but I think it's good practice to have an attorney affidavit that says, I have explained to my client what this prenuptial agreement means, and they understand it. Okay? That's another way to making sure that your prenup [inaudible 00:35:34] agreement are being upheld. So both spouse, potential spouse, have these attorney affidavits independently saying we have explained this, they understand, okay?
Shawna Woods:
It's just another way to protect yourself from this getting kicked out for being fraudulent. For myself, I will tell you, I simply don't feel comfortable having two people in the office say, we want to do this together. I appreciate that. Y'all go talk about it outside my office, and I will talk to one of you, and I will get a recommendation from another very amicable attorney to represent the other party.
Karen:
Yeah. And you know what, Shawna, to your point of loving, it definitely sets the stage for really constructive financial discussions moving forward, getting through that with two different advisors, having just delivering perspective is really what you're doing. In doing this, this is what you're doing. I think that's a great way to set the stage for continuing to have really good discussions about the finances and each person's approach to them. And it balances out that relationship that, I'm going to say, most marriages do not have. The balance of the financial management of the household.
Shawna Woods:
Absolutely. And I think it's so important to have that financial honesty with each other from the get-go. Are you a spender? Are you a saver? That's another thing we talked about when we talk about prenuptial agreements, if you're marrying someone who is a spender and you're concerned about their credit card statements, well, you should be, because that's going to be your debt if you don't do something about it from the get-go.
Catherine:
Yeah. It's all about expectations, having the conversations about what we expect from each other, and what will happen with one of those expectations change. And remember everyone, divorce rates the second time around for second marriages or more, is 62% or higher. So it's larger than the first time you get married. So if you want to prevent some of that, and a lot of it comes from financial issues. Have these discussions because you may want to decide even if it doesn't go right, if you should be marrying that person the second time around.
Karen:
That's great. Shawna, is there anything we should add before we conclude this episode? I know you've been amazing at all this information and the details. It's incredible. But is there anything that you would like to add that people need to know when considering a prenup?
Shawna Woods:
I just want to circle back, that I really do think it is the kindest way you can enter into a honest discussion about finances. What your expert, to Catherine's point right now, what your expectations are moving forward, balancing your finances, and planning for the future. It's a great time to talk about what do we want our future to look about? Are we on the same page, right? And too many people don't get into that discussion, and then they get married and realize, you have completely different financial goals. And you want to be there together when you're saying I do.
Catherine:
Yeah.
Karen:
I love that.
Catherine:
[inaudible 00:38:59]. Yeah.
Karen:
I love that.
Catherine:
That's good.
Karen:
Thank you, Shawna.
Shawna Woods:
Thank you.
Karen:
And this concludes our episode on getting clear on prenups. Thank you Shawna, for a great conversation.
Shawna Woods:
Thank you guys.
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by Rebecca Zung to discuss the topic of How to Negotiate With a Narcissist. Here’s an overview of Rebecca's experience:
Rebecca is a narcissism negotiation expert, and one of the top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized by U.S. News & World Report as a “Best Lawyer in America”, as “Legal Elite” by Trend Magazine. She is the author of two bestselling books: Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R.: The SureFire Method to Step Up and Win (foreword by Robert Shapiro) and Breaking Free: A Step-by-Step Divorce Guide for Achieving Emotional, Physical, and Spiritual Freedom.
Her perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets, and she's been featured in or on Extra, Forbes, Huffington Post, Newspeak Time, Dr. Drew, NPR Talk Radio, Good Day New York and CBS Los Angeles among others. Now, based in Los Angeles, she is continuing to serve through her very popular YouTube channel, media appearances, podcasts, articles, and on-demand programs such as S-L-A-Y, S.L.A.Y. Your Negotiation With a Narcissist and Breaking Free Divorce Masterclasses.
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Rebecca Zung to discuss How to Negotiate With a Narcissist.
Learn More >>https://www.rebeccazung.com/
Connect with Rebecca on LinkedIn >> @Rebecca Zung
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce, Catherine and I are honored today to welcome attorney Rebecca Zung to our podcast. In this episode, we're going to discuss how to negotiate with a narcissist. But first, let me take a couple of minutes to introduce Rebecca. Rebecca is a narcissism negotiation expert, and one of the top 1% of attorneys in the nation. Having been recognized by US News and World Report as the best lawyer in America, she is the author of two bestselling books. Her perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets, and she's been featured in or on Extra, Forbes, Huffington Post, Newspeak Time, Dr. Drew, NPR Talk Radio, Good Day New York and CBS Los Angeles among others. That's amazing. Now, based in Los Angeles, she is continuing to serve through her very popular YouTube channel, media appearances, podcasts, articles, and on demand programs such as S-L-A-Y, S.L.A.Y. Your Negotiation With a Narcissist and Breaking Free Divorce Masterclasses. Welcome, Rebecca.
Rebecca Zung:
Thank you both.
Catherine:
I don't know if you're listening, if you're feeling like me that your stomach is filled with butterflies, you're either really excited to talk about this narcissistic viewpoint or you're really nervous listening to this. Either way, how did you come into focusing on negotiating with narcissists?
Rebecca Zung:
Well, it's like everything you've ever done prepares you for this one moment. And I feel that way with me. I had been a divorce lawyer for a long time. I did high net worth divorce in Naples, Florida, which is an affluent community. So I represented billionaires and celebrities and all that. And obviously, there was a Narcissister too in there. And so I represented narcissists. I had been on the other side of them. I have had them as opposing counsel or even judges sometimes. And I had been focusing on learning how to negotiate for a really long time. Oh, back when I first started my own practice, I was looking for a way to develop my practice and get more clients and so I developed a talk on how to negotiate period, not with narcissists, just how to negotiate.
Rebecca Zung:
And I gave that talk to every rotary between Tampa and Marco island, every single women's group. I mean, I've given that talk a thousand times, I've even done it as the keynote speaker for the American Bar Association. I wrote a book on negotiation. Robert Shapiro wrote the forward. So I was really thinking I was going to focus more on teaching people how to negotiate in general. I was looking for something else to do other than the day-to-day grind of practicing law. And I just thought that that was going to be my thing. Well, come to find out that I was dealing with two narcissists in my personal life. One was in my business life, in a little business that I had started with someone, which didn't go anywhere, thank God. But the person was around and in my space long enough to wreak havoc and cause lots of drama, trauma and chaos.
Rebecca Zung:
And then I had a family member who was a narcissist. And so somebody had pointed it out to me and recommended that I read a book on it and I was reading this book on the airplane with my husband and I was literally like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Every page was blowing my mind that this was what I was dealing with these two people. And so I started reading everything I could get my hands on, hundreds of books, which, behind me, you can see some of them. I mean, literally got my practical Ph.D. or whatever you want to call it, I just basically read everything I possibly could on it. And that's when I started to realize that I could actually apply my knowledge of negotiation to what I was learning about the personality of a narcissist.
Rebecca Zung:
And I actually started to see movement and I started to see actual things happening for people in negotiations. So that's how I came about it. I started doing it on YouTube. I now have, I don't know, close to 9 million views and close to 150,000 subscribers in just over a year, so.
Catherine:
That's awesome. I mean, you can imagine in divorce when an individual who may have the narcissistic traits feels like they're losing control when we empower the other spouse with some financial clarity, we see this all the time. So it's almost in every divorce case where when financial clarity is upon somebody else, there's a lot of nervousness on the other side. Why? I don't know, but I know that probably every one of our clients or almost everyone would love to follow your channel.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. They can find me, if they put in to negotiate with a narcissist, I'll be popping right up.
Karen:
Yeah. And I feel most, not, I guess, most people when they're entering divorce, one spouse or the other fully believes that they are divorcing a narcissist. So how did you break that down with, like you had told us before we hopped on this show that there is actually a diagnosis, but there's also tendencies and behaviors? So how does someone break that down and understand it a little bit more? I know we only have half an hour here, but can you touch on that a little bit?
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. So, I mean, reasonable people want to come to a resolution. They don't want to spend lots and lots of money on lawyers. They want to be able to have peace in their lives. They want to be able to move on. Yes, they want to get an outcome that's fair, but they're interested in having a conversation on how to come to a resolution. You'll know right away if you're dealing with a narcissistic type of a person because instead of trying to figure out how to come to a resolution, they are ratcheting it up. They're filing motions all the time. They're refusing to provide financial disclosure. They are using the court system as a sword. They're lying in pleadings, they are offering settlements and then as soon as you say yes to it, they change it and they blame it on you. And it goes on and on and on. And it's like five years and $400,000 later, you're still doing this. That's when you're dealing with a narcissist.
Karen:
That's incredible.
Catherine:
So how do you equip yourself in that scenario?
Rebecca Zung:
Wow, that's a really big question. It seems like a simple question, but it's actually a big question because that's all part of what I teach in S.L.A.Y, which is to build strategy, create leverage, anticipate what they're going to do and be two steps ahead of them and focus on you, your case and your position. That's what S.L.A.Y stands for. And so in the program, I teach people actually how to do documentation the proper way. I mean, a lot of people say document, document document, which I agree with, but there are certain things you want to make sure you're focusing on. There's a way to organize it. There's a way to find, look for patterns and then all of that becomes your leverage so that you could potentially motivate them and incentivize them to want to come to the table.
Rebecca Zung:
You have to understand that narcissists are driven by one thing and that's narcissistic supply, that's it. And so settling the case doesn't give them narcissistic supply, they get supply from jerking you around and intimidating you and moving the goalposts and thinking it's a big game. So they have no incentive to want to resolve it unless you give them another incentive to want to resolve it.
Catherine:
Yeah. I always say whenever we do the portrait with our couples or individuals, if they come by themselves, when you know all your options and you know the components to all those options, you're able to make a compromise, but you're able to make a compromise, knowing that either position will be acceptable to you but you left the other side too, they're narcissist because they always want to win. So when you have financial clarity, you can say, I'll be okay with either of these scenarios. So you put it back in their hands and just let them pick one because you're okay with either side.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah, I mean that's one way you could go about it. But if you're dealing with a really malignant narcissist, they're going to say neither. And because neither is, I mean really just because they just want to screw you. But they'll come up with some reason why neither works and, or they'll pick the parts that they like and keep those like, oh yes, I'll definitely take this, this and this, the parts that you're offering that are good for them, but the parts that you want, they don't want to do. And then they'll try to hold you to the part that you were offering, even though they didn't want it, I see Karen nodding her head.
Karen:
That's so true. We see that all the time. So what are some ways that people can disarm a narcissist?
Rebecca Zung:
Well, I think there's a couple of different ways that you have to look at it. I mean, there's a way to disarm them when you're just having a conversation with them and you're just trying to communicate with them on a day-to-day basis. And then there are ways to disarm them in the actual negotiation process too. So I think it depends on what it is that you're dealing with, but just from a communication point of view, I think there's a number of different ways. All of them require though that you learn how to at least control your emotions while you're in that interaction. So that's why it's really important to either be super brief or have strong boundaries. And then when you are interacting with them, you are not taking the bait because they constantly are trying to trigger you. They want you to say something or do something that they can turn around and use against you. As soon as you say, oh, whatever, like there you go, there's a potential trial exhibit for them.
Rebecca Zung:
So you got to be really careful about how you respond and so I advise people to be very brief in their interactions. And so like you can have a tactical response to an email, for example, like if there's a really long email about what a deadbeat you are, and you're a horrible person and whatever it is that their diatribe of the day. And there's maybe one line in there that you actually need to respond to, like about what time to pick up the kids or something like that. You can just say, "Thank you for your email. I am in responsive it. I deny your allegations and you can pick up Susie at three o'clock on Wednesday." So you've denied it, you don't need to go point by point, are you kidding me, I'm a wonderful mother, I'm this, that, and the other thing. Never try to justify, explain, or overshare, just, "I've received this, I deny it. Here's the only thing I need to respond to." And that can be so empowering when you know that you don't need to respond to every single thing.
Catherine:
So true. And it's so important to try it for the first time. It's really difficult if you're trained in a long-term relationship and you're so used to that type of toxic interaction, to actually do that the first time is empowering, but it's scary. So if you're out there and you're listening, it is scary, but do it, less is more in a lot of these situations and you will feel really good about that because they won't know how to respond to you.
Karen:
I agree. That's great. So take that same communication style and if you're in person or you're with them, and you're having to talk to them on the phone or the exchange of the children or whatever, what can you do to disarm in a live setting? Some tips, obviously there's probably a million.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah, in my course, I have 50 key phrases to destroy a narcissist. But you just remember wherever you can almost become an observer, almost like you're reporting the news. Like, I can see that you are upset or you are entitled to that opinion. I'm sorry that that is your opinion or I'm sorry that that's how you feel or something like that. I mean, you can even use words like I agree, even though... There's a trick that I tell people to use, which is, I agree that that is your opinion, so you're agreeing with them and they hear, I agree, but you're not saying anything really. I hear what you're saying and that's it. And it's almost like there's this invisible shield where you're not getting emotional.
Rebecca Zung:
So one of the other things I tell people to do is maybe sometimes if you know you're going to have a conversation set an agenda ahead of time. Like we will talk, and this is what we will talk about. We're not talking about this, this and this, we're going to talk about that. And maybe figure out a way to get in and out of that conversation, by setting a time limit ahead of time or saying, you have to leave for work or you have to go take a shower or whatever. Whatever you need to do to feel like you're in control of that conversation ahead of time that just psychologically can help too.
Catherine:
Yeah. And writing things down and having it right in front of you is also very comforting because you can always resort back to reading it off your paper, and learning to walk away, walk away when you have to. So that's really big too, again, another scary thing to do.
Karen:
But it sounds like what you do in your courses and in your teachings is empowering them with boundaries so that they can just start to enclose themselves in a safe place of sorts when they're engaging with a narcissist who doesn't have their best interests at heart.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. I mean, that's just part of the whole strategy for communication. I mean, I also teach how to do the research, create the strategy, figure out your diagnosis, your guiding vision, your guiding policy, your action plan, all of that, but around the communication piece of it, for sure. I mean, it's all about reducing your exposure to that toxicity because they work on your neuronal patterns, on your brainwaves and things. And so it's almost like deprogramming yourself in order to try to heal from it. And so getting out of that is so important because if you get sucked back in, it almost slides you back as far as you're healing from that trauma.
Catherine:
Yeah. And it doesn't happen overnight. When you walk away, like you just said, you have to retrain your own mind. I mean, I'm talking personally here now. So when you walk out of that situation, a lot of times people who do not heal, end up in another relationship with someone similar to that same pattern. It took me two and a half years to get through my process of healing. And thankfully I met my current husband after that time period, but it really is that you're so easily triggered to go back to a pattern. So you really need to give yourself that time and that process, allow that process.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah, and I do want to mention that part of the reason why you become so trauma bonded to them is because of that cycle of love bombing, devaluing, and discarding, they throw in those strategically placed love bombs and every time they do that, you get a dopamine hit in your brain. There's actually a study with, Robert Sapolsky had done a study on monkeys. And if you gave them a treat every single time, their dopamine levels in their brains did nothing, but intermittently giving them a treat or a reward, just the anticipation of getting it had the dopamine levels in their brain rise to a level of cocaine. And so actually, you become physiologically addicted to this person because of that, it's way more toxic than somebody who's just toxic all the time.
Catherine:
That's so interesting.
Karen:
It's incredible. So tell me this, are people born with narcissistic behavior or is it a learned trait?
Rebecca Zung:
I do say I'm not a psychologist, but from what I read and what I have studied and learned, and I've interviewed a bunch of psychologists, my understanding is that they are not born that way, that they are created. And so it's nurture, not nature, that it happens at some point during their formation as a child where they came to a conclusion that the world is a scary place, that they're not good enough, that they have to be in survival at all times in order to live. And so they psychologically live there and I think it's very subconscious, but it's either that they were traumatized in some way as a child, or I've also heard that extreme overindulgence can cause it as well because children actually want boundaries. They want their parents to care. And by extremely overindulging them, they don't feel like they were worth anything. So I think it's both.
Catherine:
Yeah. So I hope my kids are glad that I was so strict.
Rebecca Zung:
Mine too.
Catherine:
Well, I have a curious question, have you gone up against other attorneys for a case that are narcissists and how did you handle that?
Rebecca Zung:
Part of the reason I'm glad I don't practice on a full-on basis anymore because I couldn't stand them. I mean, there are certain opposing counsel that I would have to tell my clients, well, they hired so-and-so, so it's going to be twice as expensive because she's going to fight every single thing. There are certain ones that I just could not stand because of that. Yeah.
Karen:
Yeah. And it's to the client and the family's detriment, it's to everyone's detriment.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. But I have to say, I always, half-jokingly, but not really jokingly, that people are like dogs and their dog owners, they always seem to find the lawyer that's just like them.
Karen:
Wow.
Catherine:
Yeah. That's so true. Or they find one that's like their partner, because they're actually, like you said, addicted to that type of personality. So they almost feel like that person will put up with their spouse, so they're being bullied. I mean, I see clients being bullied by their own attorney, it's because it's the relationship they had with their spouse. So they're used to that. They don't see it being wrong. Yeah. It's unfortunate, but that is the way it is. Yeah. It's so interesting. It's really very interesting.
Karen:
So on that note, can you really get a narcissist to negotiate successfully?
Rebecca Zung:
I've had done it many thousands of times actually. And they're actually the simplest people to understand. I mean, they're heinous to deal with, but they're actually very easy to understand. I mean, they're only motivated and incentivized by one thing, and that's narcissistic supply. Regular people are motivated by lots of different things, it might be time with your children or it might be a flexible schedule or whatever, but with them, it's not, it's always that one thing, that's the thing they keep coming back to. And then just understanding that there's a hierarchy of narcissistic supply. So there's like, their diamond level grade A, source of supply, which is their image and how they look and the outside looking in like, what are people thinking of them. And especially people that they respect.
Rebecca Zung:
So in the court system, it will be definitely the judge or the lawyers or maybe the mediator or something like that. They want to make sure that they look good and the other person looks like the bad one. And with narcissists, it's all black and white, you're either for them or against them, or you're either the best or you're the worst. And so that's the grade eight A, level. And then the Core level, which I call Core level, which is like the... It burns and it gives them energy, but it's not as good as the diamond level. And that is like jerking you around, degrading you, devaluing you, making you squirm, scaring you, all those sorts of things. They get supply from that as well. So the key is to create a leverage situation that ethically manipulates the manipulator by threatening a source of narcissistic supply that means more to them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around.
Karen:
Wow.
Catherine:
Love that. That's so good. Yeah. Well, we apply that to our financial portrait, giving people the courage to request the information and to understand the information financially, really empowers them to stand stronger and let their attorneys that they have to do their job of being aggressive, because they're understanding what their rights are. And they're understanding what the financial outcome will be. And nobody expects somebody who's married to a narcissist to have that courage or to be able to state what they want, because they don't understand financially what they've ever had. So I love applying all of that to the financial clarity that everybody needs before they get divorced.
Rebecca Zung:
Totally.
Karen:
So another question that we have here is what kind of tricks do they play and how can you identify a trick that a narcissist would like to pull on someone else or on your spouse or on you during a divorce?
Rebecca Zung:
During the divorce?
Karen:
Yeah.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. They manipulate text messages, they lie about things, even things that are readily verifiable and even things that are things they don't necessarily need to lie about, but they just do because that's just their way of being. So I had a case where the wife, who I think is more than just a narcissist, I think she might've had borderline or some other issues. But in the middle of the night, one o'clock in the morning, she gets into this fight with her 15-year-old son. She throws him out of the house with all of his stuff. It was 30° outside. It was in the Northeast part of the country in winter. And so the kid calls his dad and says, come get me. I'm outside on the curb with all my stuff. Dad goes over there in the middle of the night, gets him, brings him back to the house. The next morning gets an email from the mother saying, this is probably for the best you should call the bus and let them know to pick them up over there by you for a while. So he does that.
Rebecca Zung:
And a couple of weeks later, she files a motion in court, sworn testimony saying that he kidnapped the child, refuses to return the child and it's just like a flat-out lie. And she even sent an email saying, we'll change the bus. I mean, but that's the kind of thing that they do. And it's maddening because it costs you money.
Karen:
Yeah. And anybody can make a claim about anything and you have to defend that in court if that's where it's taken up. And I think a lot of people don't understand that, but at the end of the day, that's your only choice is defending that claim. That's incredible.
Catherine:
Well, it's terrible too, because the child's sitting there saying what the hell's going on here. And so they're growing up realizing, how am I dealing with this? Who am I dealing with? And it's unfortunate.
Rebecca Zung:
Horrible, because then a lot of times, those are the parents that refuse to allow counseling for the child, too.
Catherine:
Exactly. We talk about that a lot with even custodian plans, 529 plans, you might have that spouse who's the custodian on that account, so years later they're using that account to manipulate your child. So it wasn't talked about before, because it was never identified that they had this trait. So it's something that people should consider, who's going to be the custodian if something like that happens because now the kid again is being manipulated instead of the spouse because the spouse is no longer married to them.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. It's tough.
Catherine:
Yeah. It's a hard thing.
Karen:
Yeah. So it sounds like your programs really take people through the breadth and width of understanding it, identifying and responding to it. So where can people learn more about your programs and what they offer?
Rebecca Zung:
Well, I have a free gift for everyone and they can get a free, crush my negotiation prep worksheet, which is 15 pages. It's basically an ebook. It's actually a really nice free gift and they can get that at winmynegotiation.com. So I made a nice, easy URL so people can remember, winmynegotiation.com. And so I would start there definitely check out my YouTube channel, totally free obviously as well. Rebecca Zung ESQ is the, it's youtube.com/rebeccazungesq or just put in negotiating with a narcissist, you'll find me right there for sure.
Catherine:
Yes, for sure. That's awesome.
Rebecca Zung:
Yeah. And Instagram is Rebecca Zung. My books, whatever. I mean, I would start with the YouTube channel as well as the free worksheet.
Karen:
That's fantastic. That's really great. I had something I was going to say, and it went right out of my head. Oh, I know what I was going to say. All of this will be in the show notes below the podcast. So don't feel like you have to remember that, we'll have that all laid out when we're promoting so that you can easily click through, to learn more about Rebecca's programs. So this concludes our episode on negotiating or communicating with a narcissist. Thank you so much, Rebecca, for being with us today and having this great conversation.
Rebecca Zung:
Thank you for having me.
Catherine:
Yeah. Thank you. It's been great.
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by Evan Schein to discuss the topic: The Dynamics of Discovery and the Divorce Process. Here’s an overview of Evans's experience:
Evan Schein is a New York City-based divorce and family law attorney, partner and the Head of Litigation at Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein LLP. During his career, Evan has litigated high-conflict custody cases and complex financial matters. Evan leads the firm's litigation practice. He has helped clients find post-divorce happiness and build successful financial lives, advocated to protect children and fought for the rights of victims of domestic violence.
Evan is the host of the Schein On Podcast where he gives an inside and unfiltered look into the world of marriage, money, divorce and more.
Evan has taught several Continuing Legal Education seminars for various organizations and bar associations in New York and nationally and has been cited in publications for his work on prominent New York family law cases.
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Evan Schein to discuss The Dynamics of Discovery and the Divorce Process.
Learn More >>https://scheinondivorce.com/
https://www.berkbot.com
Connect with Evan on LinkedIn >> @Evan Schein
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen:
Welcome to We Chat divorce, Catherine and I are very happy to welcome attorney Evan Schein to our podcast today. In this episode, we're going to discuss the dynamics of discovery and the divorce process. But first, let me just take a couple of minutes to introduce attorney Schein. Evan Schein is a New York City-based divorce and family law attorney [00:00:30] partner and the head of litigation at Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein. During his career, Evan has litigated high conflict custody cases and complex financial matters. Evan leads the firm's litigation practice. He's helped clients find post-divorce happiness and build successful financial lives, advocated to protect children and fought for the rights of victims of domestic violence. Evan is the host of the Schein On the podcast, where he gives an insight [00:01:00] an unfiltered look into the world of marriage, money, divorce, and more. Welcome, Evan.
Evan Schein:
Karen, Catherine, thank you for that fantastic introduction. It's great to be with you both and all your listeners.
Catherine:
Thank you for being with us. And I have to say if you're listening, you're probably thinking the same thing I'm thinking. Schein On Podcast with unfiltered talk with an attorney. How exciting is that?
Evan Schein:
I'm excited to be with both of you. This is great.
Catherine:
Yeah. Good.
Karen:
Awesome. So on that note, you're a divorce litigator, but yet you promote mediation and the wellbeing of families going through the divorce process. What is your story here? And how is it that you have ended up with this philosophy?
Evan Schein:
Karen, it's such a great question. And it's one of my favorite things and topics to talk about. The divorce process for so many people, there's so much fear, there's so much uncertainty. It's a process that it's unknown. And unless you've been down this road before, you don't know what to expect, you don't know the direction, you don't know the path forward. And I believe it's incredibly important to explain to clients, what are the options? What are the options? What are the process choices available? Whether it's litigation, whether it's mediation, whether it's collaborative law, or if you're in a state that practices arbitration, it's important to educate your clients on the process and the options available.
Not every case needs to be litigated. Not every case should be litigated, but if a client does not understand the options available to her, him, not six months down the road where they're already in messy contested litigation, that is far too expensive, but at the beginning, at the beginning of the case, or really when somebody's thinking about starting that process, embarking on the divorce journey, it's important to know the options available, to consult with an attorney who can explain to the client those options available and what each option looks like.
Catherine:
When you explain the options, which is a great point, I totally agree, setting up those expectations is really paramount for people going through a divorce. Can you, as the attorney behind the scenes, and have handled so many cases, and we know that very small cases actually percentage-wise go to litigation, do you have a really good bird's-eye over a case saying, hey, this is going to be a litigated case, or not? And are you able to explain to the person sitting in front of you why it probably would not be a litigated case, or why it would be one?
Evan Schein:
Catherine, great question. The answer is yes. Part of my job as an attorney is to set expectations and to manage expectations. I can pretty much tell within the first 15 minutes of any substantive conversation with a prospective client, or when I sit down and I ask a client, what are the issues? What are your goals? If you're arguing over something that does not need to be litigated, your case should not go down that path. There is options available, mediation, collaborative law, just negotiating back and forth with the other side, you can get a deal done. You can reach a resolution. You can bring closure to such an incredibly difficult time in somebody's life in a quick, easy, simple way, but there are issues that are complex.
If I represent, or if I'm working with a business owner or the spouse of a business owner, and there are multiple properties, if there are complex financial issues, if there are complex assets, for example, I just tried a case where it involves separate property and appreciation in a very long-term marriage. My client owned a business and he also owned a commercial real estate that the business practiced out of. So when you have very complex financial issues and there are claims of separate property, and there are claims of marital property, and what each spouse is going to receive, some of those issues, the financial issues, can get very complex. And so I can generally tell early on which cases are going to be litigated and which cases are going to settle pretty quickly.
Catherine:
Do you think those complex cases that you're saying that could be litigated, or maybe litigated, or most likely would be litigated, is due to the lack of understanding from one of the parties of the complexity of that asset? Because I feel like when we do our, we've developed the NDS financial portrait, and we don't come from an advice standpoint, we come from a knowledge standpoint, and it just really has been shown over the last few years how, when the spouse who is not in the business, or not involved with that complex case, when they're informed and they know how to interpret the asset, and they know how to access the, excuse me, asset, and they have more knowledge about the asset. They're able to make smart decisions without actually a judge telling them what to do when the two attorneys can really just talk that out. Not having that knowledge, I feel like is what sends a lot of people into that litigation route.
Evan Schein:
Catherine, I love this question. Knowledge is power. Education is absolutely everything. And not every case, again, even when there are complex financial assets, the cases don't have to be litigated. Clients don't have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, hire five or six different appraisers to valuate businesses in real estate. The important thing is if you have attorneys who understand the process if you have clients who are educated if you have clients who could over time develop trust to learn about the financial process, the assets involved, cases can and should settle. But what happens is, and you make a really great point, if somebody doesn't understand the assets, if someone feels that somebody's hiding something, if there's a lack of trust at the beginning of the process and everybody isn't working together to help understand the full financial picture, that's going to have a domino effect and it's going to send the case to a place where it doesn't need to be if everybody can get ahead of it at the beginning.
And part of that process, and the due diligence, and the work that you do, and Karen does well, is helping people to understand the financial process, the financial picture, and giving both parties the full understanding so their attorneys can do the work to help them get to the place where they need to be, which is separated, divorced, and figuring out next steps.
Catherine:
Boy, if we could replay that again, and again, and again, it's exactly what we say, which is exactly why we love to align with attorneys like you, who actually get that concept. It's really hard to have two attorneys on both sides thinking the same way like that.
Evan Schein:
Well, and Catherine, I'll tell you what happens, again, another great point, attorneys have to set out proper expectations for clients. And if you work with an attorney, or you work with a financial advisor, or a financial professional, or any professional who doesn't have the same fundamental core belief that a client does, in terms of helping somebody get from point A to point B, watch how quickly that case takes on a life of its own. And it's very problematic, and anytime I take over a case, it's amazing to me, and at this point, it probably shouldn't be, when clients say, Evan, if I knew this if I knew that, if this was explained to me at the beginning of my case, you know what? I probably wouldn't be in your office because my case would be settled and I would be divorced.
Karen:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And from my experience with clients, having their first, or developing their initial relationship with their attorneys, especially if they go to what they consider as a shark attorney, I think I try to help clients understand the difference between a shark attorney and a smart attorney, but they get, I feel like the attorney answers most of their questions with, it depends, it depends. Everything depends. And, of course, it depends, but they walk away feeling worse than when they started, and then they start throwing paperwork at the attorney. And then they're more confused because they think the attorney should be addressing every piece of paper as it's coming in. And then to your point, it takes a life of its own and it goes off the rails, and they can easily get 50, $60,000 in, and still be as confused as they were when they started.
Catherine:
Karen, you bring up a really good point there, and as you even say the word, I'm a financial person, so I'm not taking it from the attorney version. So I give a lot of pushback to people like you, Evan, because I just do, but when she said that word, those two words, it depends, immediately my stomach right here, sitting here right now, got a little agitated. So that life of its own that everyone's talking about is for the person on the other side who's going through the process saying, don't tell me it depends. Although I know legally, you're bound to say that for a lot of reasons, the common person like myself doesn't understand that. We just want to be informed, right? And guess what.
Evan Schein:
And here's the thing, is that in litigation, sometimes it does depend. It depends on the judge. It depends on the issues. It depends on the other side. And I tell everybody, there are four people involved in every case, it's the clients and it's the attorneys. To settle a case and have control over how it settles, takes everybody. It takes all four people to be on the same page. For a case to go off the rails, it takes only one of those four people to have a different expectation, to get bad advice from an attorney, a financial professional, and the case proceeds to litigation. And that's when you hear about the cases that are in court for three years and four years, and people are spending exorbitant sums of money, but the thing about divorce is, there's a playbook, right? There's a script. And how do we keep that script being followed? How do we keep that playbook being followed?
And it's very easy for people to go off-script. It's very easy for that playbook to get thrown out the window, but what if we had a better playbook, a different playbook, where the playbook accounted for certain things, if the attorneys and the professionals involved were people who understood what a client wanted, a client's goals, and everybody was working in rhythm and in sync with one another to get the best possible outcome for a client, because every client's goals are different, right? Some people want a hundred thousand dollars here, $50,000 there, people want to move forward. And if it means bringing a case to an end, sometimes it's just not worth the fight for certain people. And when you go into an attorney's office, and Karen, you mentioned a shark attorney, that shark attorney isn't talking about collaborative law, mediation, other ways to settle a divorce, that attorney, and most attorneys, are only speaking about what they know.
And if they're not an attorney or firm that understands the benefits to litigation, mediation and collaborative law, the only way that that attorney is answering the client who's sitting across from her, or him, those questions is with what he or she knows, which is you must go to court. You must fight no matter what it takes, you must hire this appraiser, but that's not great advice.
Catherine:
It's so, I'm sorry. It's so refreshing to hear you say all of this because we worked tirelessly on creating our portrait because we believe that everybody needs to work on the same page. We believe that each side needs their expectations and their strategies, however, you want to word that, but to take the emotions out of the decision-making process has to be that everyone's working with the same data, right? And so when people come to us, they're unleashing their emotions in a really non-biased safe environment where we get to transform it into the data that is now shared with both sides. Whether it's the mediator, or if it has to be a litigated case, or it just has to attorney representation, it doesn't matter. We certainly can tell the temperature of both parties and be able to make suggestions on who might be a good fit for them.
But the importance of just having all the same data will let these families learn how to compromise because everybody's compromising in divorce. But when you're compromising with knowledge, your attorneys that you're paying them the money that they're earning is worth it because they're making decisions based on this. Not somebody derailing because you're not working on the same page with the data, it's all data at this point.
Evan Schein:
Absolutely. And I love saying divorce is the greatest team sport. Nobody should go through it alone. You shouldn't try to navigate it by yourself. You shouldn't try to navigate it with just your attorney. To get through a divorce and to get through it the way you should get through it, which is to look forward to life ahead, to get through it in a way that makes sense and works in as efficient and effective, it's a true team sport. It takes a team, everybody plays a role, the financial professional, the attorney, perhaps other professionals such as the therapist, or a business evaluator. But if you take the sport of, let's say baseball or football, and you look at the great sports dynasties of all time, everybody from top to bottom played a meaningful role. And I truly believe divorce is a team sport. And if you have a team, a team of really excellent trusted professionals, it's the best way to go from point A to point B, and to move forward in a very healthy, productive way.
Karen:
I love that.
Catherine:
Totally agree.
Karen:
Yeah. And to our topic today, which I think is going to be very important for people to hear your perspective. The discovery process is one of the most misunderstood pieces of divorce. Attorneys know they have to do it because they're procedurally mandated to do it, but clients are very confused about how it works. So can you talk to us about what is the divorce, not the divorce, the discovery process, and break it down in a way that a person who may not have gone through that yet can understand what the pieces of it are, and what an attorney's responsibility to that is.
Evan Schein:
In a very simple way, the discovery process is how you understand and how you educate yourself on the overall financial picture. In the discovery process, and regardless of whether you're in litigation, or you're negotiating, or your case is being moved forward through the mediation process, the discovery phase of a case is the exchange of financial information. And I say financial information because it could be documented, it could be bank statements, credit card statements. It can be working with professionals to fill out financial forms, financial statements, but at its core, at its foundation, the discovery phase of a case is how both sides can learn about information, about the other person's finances and assets, and really fill in the holes, and fill in the gaps. The truth is if there's compliance, if everybody's on the same page at the beginning, a lot of this work is done at the outset.
And I really view the discovery process as a way to fill in the holes, to fill in the gaps of missing information. Maybe instead of five years of tax returns, only three years were produced at the beginning. You might need an additional year or two. Maybe instead of five years of bank statements, only three were produced and you may need an additional year or two. So the discovery process is one that really doesn't start, or really should start at the beginning of a case, because if you want your case to move forward if you want your case to settle, both sides, not just one, but both sides need to really have a true picture and a true understanding of what the financial process looks like. And if your case is in court and there's information that either side needs that have not been produced, the court will dictate the discovery schedule.
And what that means if you're in litigation, if you're in court, the judge will set dates and deadlines by which both parties need to comply, produce different financial documents that are requested, credit card statements, bank statements, checking account statements, savings, retirement, investment accounts. The list goes on and on. And that phase is really where you learn about someone's finances if you already don't have a clear picture of [00:17:30] what the overall financial asset picture looks like. The separate part or the second part of the discovery phase is, in addition to exchanging hard financial documents, there's something called depositions.
Depositions in the court process is where the attorney gets to ask your spouse, or partner, financial questions, at least in the state of New York, where depositions are limited to financial questions only. You get to ask someone under oath questions about somebody's assets, about bank statements, credit card statements, [00:18:00] anything you want so long as it's relevant and proper to the issue of finances. And at the conclusion of the discovery phase, if it's handled correctly if it's done right, both sides should have a true picture, a true understanding of all the financial assets in the case.
Karen:
That's a very good breakdown. Thank you.
Catherine:
And again, it really matters how that process is started, it is my belief that really matters how it started, because that is where the trust foundation begins. And believe me, we all know here today that people getting divorced typically don't trust each other. That's pretty much why they're getting divorced at that point. However, if we can start the process with gathering that data, we don't need two attorneys, quite frankly, to gather this data. That's not what you're trained to do by gathering this. You have to follow your mandates, I get that if one party is not producing the information, but what we do is try to work with them to gather all of that so that they're really putting out there that, listen, I'm going to be transparent. I'm going to give this information, I know I have to.
And then we get to hand it over to both sides so they have it. And then the discovery process really only has to occur if you see a missing gap as you said, or if you see something that wasn't produced that you really wanted, or we asked for five years of tax returns and they only gave us two and had no explanation why they couldn't give us the other three. Some people have explanations, but if we say to you in consideration, he, or she, just refused to give it. Now you could just zone in on that, you don't have to go through the whole minutia of getting the things that we've already gotten. We don't need two experts, two litigators to collect that data, because there it is. And then the couple gets to start working. You have those expectations again, it always comes down to the expectations, right?
Evan Schein:
Absolutely. And Catherine, you make such a great point. There's this phrase that I use sometimes, it's called divorce limbo. And it is the most uncomfortable, I believe, phase or experience for a client to go through. If you're going to start a divorce action, and I tell everybody this, be prepared, be organized, just like you said, don't wait to produce documents to share financial information. I'm going to break the news on your podcast. It's going to come out. It's going to come out anyway. And so at the end of the day.
Catherine: Breaking.
Breaking.
Evan Schein:
That's right. And here's the thing, because I litigate, because I'm in a courtroom, at the end of the day if someone isn't complying, the judge is going to mandate that somebody produce documents, you can serve subpoenas. Your attorney's going to get the documents. To produce it, give it up, do it in the beginning. If you want to have a divorce, and divorce the right way, get ahead of it. Get ahead of it at the beginning, because otherwise, you're living in divorce limbo. And really what I mean by that is if somebody starts a divorce process, [00:21:00] and he, or she, doesn't know what's next, that's not great. Do the work ahead of time.
Have a plan with your attorney, with your financial professional, whoever the client is working with, have a plan, a short-term plan, a long-term plan, have a path, have a direction, don't file for divorce and not be able to say to somebody, this is what happens next because it's an absolutely terrible feeling for somebody to be in. Going through a divorce is hard enough, going through a divorce and feeling like your life, money, your kids, everybody's in limbo, it's an absolutely terrible feeling, but here's the key, it could be avoided if it's handled correctly.
Catherine:
Exactly.
Karen:
And here's the scenario. You go to an attorney, you filed your divorce complaint, that's done, you start the discovery process and you get those two documents called interrogatories and requests for production of documents, right? And they're long, and they're intimidating and overwhelming. Well, how great would it be if you could just say, oh, I've already done that? Here you go. Here it is, the data, the documents to support it. I'll answer these questions. Boom, boom. So not only is it great for the client because that emotion of fear and overwhelm is dissipated, but it's also great for the attorney because it's delivered in a package, not in over the course of months and sometimes years of requesting documents that are just dribbling in.
Evan Schein:
Absolutely. That goes back, that's the perfect playbook. That's the perfect script on how to get divorced, how to get divorced the right way, exchange your documents, exchange your financials, work in a way that helps both parties to understand what exists. You can't divide what you don't know exists. And again, it's going to come out. And so get ahead of it. Work in a way, and look, you don't necessarily, a client doesn't necessarily have to have the most amicable divorce. Catherine, you mentioned in most divorces, there's a lack of trust. In many divorces the communication is problematic and it's not there. You don't need to necessarily be best friends as you're going through a divorce process. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is simply complying, producing your financial documents, getting ahead of it, having a plan, working smart, working in an intelligent way, working with people who want to help you get from where you are now, which is a not so great place, to a much better place, and how to do that in an efficient, effective way.
When people say to me, Evan, my case has been in court for five years, or nine years and these are people who I don't represent, then I hear these stories. To me, it's, you have to go back and examine what happened. And I can pretty much guarantee before I even asked that question, I know there's a list of about five to seven things, what went wrong. [00:24:00] And one of those things always is, someone was not forthcoming with financial documentation. Somebody tried to hide assets. Someone was withdrawing money. Someone was gifting money to a family member. It's all discoverable. And so if you know that, and your attorney explains it to you, and the people you're working with help you to understand what's the process ahead is going to look like if you don't do A, B, C, D, you'll do it at the beginning of the case.
Karen:
Yeah.
Catherine:
Yeah. And even in addition to that, and I totally agree with everything that you just said, is that even for the kudos to the ones who were really forthcoming with their information, and kudos to the business owners in the complex cases that they give you all that information, the problem can still lie in that the other party doesn't understand, doesn't have the financial literacy of those assets. So they're being asked to make decisions on people who are not explaining to them, or they don't get the bird's eye view, or the playbook, or the blueprint, we call it, to the decision-making.
But how exciting would it be? I probably would love to be an attorney if I could not litigate, but I would call it to negotiate because I love negotiating. But if we're handing you this document and your opposing counsel has the same document, and now you're negotiating, you're not litigating, because you don't need a judge to tell you what to do. A judge doesn't want to tell you what to do, but you're actually negotiating what you're trained to do, trying to get the best compromise for your client while they're trying to get the best compromise. And then your client understands it because they're seeing it. To me, it's just such a great way to save families who are going through a divorce, because I think the narrative needs to change. I am a divorcee, I'm remarried, but it's just a part of my story. And all of these people are going into new relationships. I'm remarried, everyone's getting remarried. So why not go into a new marriage in a healthier view because you didn't have to be tortured through the divorce of your prior marriage.
Evan Schein:
Catherine, you're a hundred percent right, and here's the other piece, and you touch on it, about the divorce process. Even in the scenario that you mentioned, for someone who maybe doesn't have the financial sophistication, or the financial background to understand numbers, or complex financial concepts, the divorce process, I find, can be a very empowering process. When someone could understand the finances and whether it's balancing a checkbook, whether it's in investments, whether it's other basic concepts, or learn more about money, how great is that? How fantastic is that? Because here's the other piece of it. There's going to be life after divorce.
Someone maybe, as you mentioned, in new relationships, someone wants to be in a position to explain to their children about money, about saving, about investments. And in that power, that knowledge, it's an incredible feeling, but in order for that to happen, the person needs to work with the right team. It gets back to the whole divorce is a team sport, because there are other things to consider besides just the divorce process. It's life after divorce, having that knowledge, having that education, being empowered by what you learn in the divorce process and taking that knowledge and applying it to other areas of your life.
Catherine:
It's so true. And that's why we really focus on coming from knowledge, not an advisory standpoint so that the entire team can then make good decisions. You make smart decisions when you have the knowledge, you don't have to know what the market's doing every single day. You don't have to know what every investment actually means, but you have to understand that every decision has an outcome, and when you have the knowledge, it's everything in the divorce.
Karen:
I agree.
Evan Schein:
And the other piece of it too is, divorce is so emotional. And I know it's something that the three of us have talked about. It's emotional and it's a hard process for people to go through. And a lot of times emotion drives people to make irrational decisions in terms of settling cases, whether it's the house they want, but they can't afford it, whether it's the, something else that somebody wants, but they can't afford it. And so it gets back to the simple concepts of, well, if you want the house, let's look at the cash flow. Let's look at the other assets. Let's look, is this something that makes sense? And by having those conversations and discussions, then it puts people in the position to get a fair settlement, a very good settlement, and one that they know that they could feel good about and that they truly, truly understand.
Karen:
Yeah. And I was just thinking the same thing, Evan, I feel people often look for emotional justice as a part of the divorce process. And it's just not. There is no emotional justice. So, as bad as you think the other person is treated, or whether he or she is doing whatever they may be doing, that's not going to get resolved. What's going to get resolved is the formulaic division of marital assets and support, and a parenting plan if needed. Am I saying that correctly?
Evan Schein:
Absolutely. You are. And Karen here's the thing, clients say to me all the time, Evan, I want to go to court. I want the judge to know everything that happened in my relationship, in my marriage. I want the judge to know all the bad things that my spouse did to me, but here's the key. You have to manage your client's expectations because, one, the court is very expensive. It's time-consuming, but here's the other piece of it. The judge isn't going to care about all the things your spouse did, or didn't do, in your relationship and in your marriage. And if you're looking for that validation from the court, you're not going to get it. And what you're going to get is you're going to get the feeling that we're not heard. You spent a lot of time and a lot of money, and your case is likely to go on for another year, or two years.
And so I tell everybody, whatever your image is of the court process, right? If it's based on television, if it's based on movies, that's not reality. That's not reality. It doesn't matter what your favorite divorce or any legal movie is. That's not going to happen. It's not going to play out like you see it on television like you see it in the movies. And I tell clients a lot of times before the first appearance, go to the courthouse, know how to get there, experience it, feel it, know where you're going, sit in a courtroom, see what happens. Because if you can experience that, if you can feel that, then you know what the process actually looks like, not what your friends tell you, not what you see on TV. And if you understand that, then you can make an informed decision as to whether litigation and going to court is really the process that you want to take.
Catherine:
Boy, we could do a whole podcast on that because I have a lot to say, but I won't say it now. But you're so right. And yeah, I think we will have to do another podcast on that, because it's such an important topic and such a misunderstanding that it would really be great to discuss it even further. I could talk to you forever and I just love to drill you about a lot of things, because I love what you say.
Evan Schein:
Absolutely. I'll come back do a part two.
Karen:
Awesome. I have one more question on this topic before we conclude our discussion today though, on that note, Catherine. Many of our clients feel very lost and confused, especially during discovery as their funds are quickly becoming extinct. They're spending a ton of their marital estate on processing the discovery, but they also feel like they have no power. Is there something a client can do to be more proactive with their time and more in the know when interacting with their legal team? Are there specific things they can be asking their attorney, or are there specific things they can be doing when they feel so lost and out of the loop during that process of the exchange of documents?
Evan Schein:
Love the question. And I've two answers in response. One, the client should be part of the process. Don't just follow directions. Don't just follow what your attorney sends you, ask. Why is this necessary? Is this relevant? Right? What's the goal? And the other piece of it too is, a client should identify goals early on. And if your goal is to keep the house, if your goal is to receive X amount in child support, whatever the goal is, right? Or to resolve it quickly, any plan that's being formulated should really be a plan that is focused based on the goals that the client articulates to the attorney. And lastly, I can't stress enough how important it is to be prepared, be organized when it comes to your financial affairs and your financial orders. And whether it's working with professionals, whether it's complying with basic information, do it in the beginning, do it even before you file for divorce.
I have people reach out to me and say, how could I be prepared before I even start the process? Which is my ideal client and my favorite focal, because I can tell you exactly who you should work with and how you should work, and the documents that you need, and then go off and do it. But when I say go off and do it, go off and do it smartly, intelligently, and work with people who could advise you on how to be organized, not just in the beginning, but really to help someone stay organized through the course of the divorce process because it's a rollercoaster. There are ups, there are downs, there are good days, there are bad days, but if you can be organized in the beginning, watch how much better and smoother the process will be by getting ahead of things and being prepared.
Karen:
Absolutely.
Catherine:
Maybe we can use that on our commercial. I like it.
Karen:
I like it too. Yes.
Catherine:
I like this, but I want to tell you there's two breaking news here if you're listening, Evan, this is great. He had two breaking news that all of you should write down. You have to produce this information. You don't want him to have to get it, so be forthcoming. And number two, which I love, life goes on after divorce. Love that.
Karen:
Me too. So this concludes our episode on the dynamics of discovery and the divorce podcast with attorney, Evan Schein. Thank you, Evan, for a great conversation.
Evan Schein:
Karen, Catherine, it was a pleasure being with you.
Catherine:
Thank you.
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by Gabrielle Hartley to discuss the topic of What You Need to Know Before You Get Married. Here’s an overview of Gabrielle’s experience:
Gabrielle Hartley, Esq. is a leading online mediator and family law attorney known for keeping 99% of her cases at the settlement table. She is the author of Better Apart; The Radically Positive Way to Separate, which received a glowing recommendation from Gwyneth Paltrow and People Magazine.
Before opening her full-service online mediation and professional training center, Gabrielle clerked in matrimonial court in NYC where she resolved hundreds of high conflict divorces.
She is a sought-after expert in the positive divorce space in media outlets such as The New York Times, The New York Post, U.S. News and World Report, has been interviewed on dozens of podcasts and is a regular guest on NBC Mass Appeals. Gabrielle serves on many committees within the ABA Mediation Access to Justice Week 2020, and co-chair of the DR Just Resolutions Mediation Edition. She is also on the Western MA Mediation and Collaborative Dispute Resolution Steering Committee.
Gabrielle trains divorce professionals in the Better Apart Method Online. In addition to offering training for professionals, she maintains a private mediation practice and is of counsel to Lisa Zeiderman’s law firm in Westchester and NYC.
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Gabrielle Hartley to discuss what you need to know before you get married.
Learn More >>www.gabriellehartley.com
Connect with Grace on LinkedIn >> @Gabrielle Hartley
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce, Catherine and I are honored to welcome attorney Gabrielle Hartley to our podcast, today. In this episode, we're going to discuss what you need to know before you get married. Expert advice from the divorce lawyer, so you won't ever need one. But first, let me take a couple of minutes to introduce Gabrielle. Gabrielle is a Leading Online Mediator and Family Law Attorney. She is the author of Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate, which received a glowing recommendation from Gwyneth Paltrow and People Magazine. [inaudible 00:00:37], an expert in the positive divorce space and media outlets such as The New York Times, the New York Post, U.S. News & World Report. She's been interviewed on dozens of podcasts and is a regular guest on NBC Mass Appeal. And here she is with us today. Gabrielle trains, divorce professionals in the Better Apart method online. Welcome, Gabrielle.
Gabrielle:
Hi.
Catherine:
Hello. I love this. Flipping the story, what to do before you get married. We don't often, or do we ever even talk about that?
Gabrielle:
Well, I find the Millennial generation is really on top of things. I know there's a lot of conversation about, everything that's wrong with them, but I'm going to say they're a planning group. And so I get a lot of phone calls with people asking me what they need to know? Do they maybe need a prenup? Or sometimes they're not even really interested in a prenup, but they're just literally interviewing me to find out what do I see that goes wrong? And so I decided to write this book, what you need to know before you get married so that people who couldn't afford an hour with me could just get it for free right now. And then just for a couple of bucks on Amazon, when it goes up there. And to talk about the things that you really need to pay attention to, which you may be totally ignored while you're in the throes of romance.
Catherine:
Yeah. I say this all the time, because, I say that people will budget for their wedding. They'll... How much they can spend on their dress? And how much they can spend in a venue? And what's the band? But do you ever really talk about your budget post marriage? No. What are the expectations between the two of you post the big fun marriage? Just not a conversation, a lot of people have.
Gabrielle:
That's right. They don't talk... They're so wedding-oriented, but they're not talking about how they're going to plan for retirement, life insurance, childcare, somebody's mom going to watch kids? Are you going to have kids? Even away from the money and we will circle right back to the money. But do one of you expect that you're going to have dinner with your parents once a week or twice a week, even? Right. Are they going to come to you or are you expected to go there for Sunday dinner? Do you expect that your spouse is always going to go with you?
Gabrielle:
These are things that really break people up. What about partying? Right. I have a little section called, my girl wants to party all the time or maybe I said guy, I don't remember. But, it might be a lot of fun to go out every night when you're dating and you're just living it up. But then when you finally are settling down, it may be that one of you decides it's time to open quote, "Grow up." Close quote. And the other of you might say, "What do you mean grow up? This is who I am. This is who I thought you were." There's a lot of important conversations that don't happen. And what's so interesting is when you're getting divorced, all of these conversations are often happening for the first time.
Catherine:
And it's the blame game. "You never wanted to go out at night. You never wanted to do this. You never held my hand. You never got me flowers." But, they never did that before. You never had the conversation before they got married.
Gabrielle:
Or maybe when you were dating, they did get you flowers, but they were in the courting stage, right. But now it's real-life in your marriage. So, I love that you just brought up the blame game. That's something I talk a lot about in the context of divorcing positively. It's about becoming an active visionary. Same thing, having these important conversations is not just about doing an investigation of your betrothed to be, right. It's like an investigation and to yourself, what's your vision? So what you need to know before you get married is also about, really having an important conversation about what you want out of your life with yourself. Do you want to work 70 hours a week? Or do you want to work for somebody? Or do you want to work for yourself? Do you want to work part-time? Are you picturing that you're going to be a homemaker? Are you going to have a career? Or are you going to have a job just to make some money? Or does one of you have significant family money? How's that going to work with your marriage? Right.
Catherine:
But, even when you have the vision, it changes. I wanted to be Donna Mills from Knots Landing. That was my goal. I was going to be this little kind of aggressive woman in the work field. And then I had my daughter and once I had her, I didn't want to work anymore. I just could not see myself leaving her. So your goals and your dreams can change, but how do you communicate that with each other?
Gabrielle:
Right. And it's really ongoing. And, we touched briefly on the idea of, you can have... Everybody's heard of the idea of a prenup, which is making an agreement before you get married, to tie up what would happen in the case of dissolution or divorce after you're married. And there's a lot of things that we could sort of dive into that, but also just so anyone listening to this knows if you've become, if you've gotten married and things were going well for the first, seven to 13 years and year 14, your spouse says, "You know what, I'm going to take on a bunch of debt because I've always wanted to open a restaurant." And suddenly you're like, "Oh My Gosh, I don't want to take this debt with you." Or for whatever other set of reasons there is something called a postnuptial, that you can enter into, which is basically a contract after you're married, which would designate how things will unfold. Should you get divorced?
Catherine:
Let me back you up there for one second. So our listeners can understand because it's a common question and quite confusing at times. So the Millennials or whatever they're called, the younger generation, I just call them all. A lot of them keep separate accounts. The first time I got married, you wouldn't even think of keeping separate accounts because I didn't grow up that way. But now they're keeping separate accounts. And does that protect them? How do they protect those separate accounts? If they don't, if they didn't get it prenup?
Gabrielle:
It really depends where they live. In Massachusetts, anything that's acquired after the marriage is definitely considered marital, regardless of how it's titled, the same thing in New York. It's really important that you have conversations. And quite frankly, if you want to really protect yourself, you really do need to have a written agreement just because something is not in your name... Is in your name alone does not mean that it's not both of yours. In fact, in Massachusetts, even if things were acquired before marriage, everything comes into the marital part until you prove that it's not part of the marital part.
Gabrielle:
Whereas in New York, everything is considered, anything marital is marital, separate is separate, and then you have to discuss and explain and prove why it should come into the marital part? And I'm only familiar really intimately with those two states. And I would suggest anybody who has money and they want to make sure that it's considered separate, that they create a contract that protects it. Let's talk a minute about inheritances or trusts, right. Those aren't necessarily going to be deemed separate property either in case of a dissolution. And that can be really shocking for some people to find out. So it's really important, they have all these conversations.
Karen:
So to that point, we have a lot of couples come to us or individuals come to us with their net worth statement. And so that obviously defines what they consider their marital estate. But all of those points you just made and change that net worth statement as it relates to the division of property. And so I think you usually have one person who's a spreadsheet person, right. And they come in with that and they want that to be what they're dividing. And so many times that's not what you're dividing at all, because of all of these different factors. So that's why financial clarity is so important. And having financial conversations is so important so that your goals and what you're doing? And how you're living? And how you're behaving? Is in tandem with each other. So that when you, if you would choose to separate, for whatever reason, you're not having to reach that huge gap of yuckiness. Lack of a better word there.
Gabrielle:
I always say hard now, easy later, right. That's what I see about mediating with people who are having a difficult time working through details, they just want to sort of glaze over things and you never want to glaze over things. The same thing when you're getting married, you really want to have these conversations. I know, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is famous for saying, "A long-term marriage is predicated on everybody being a little deaf." And yes, there's value to ignoring some of the things that could make us upset and angry once we are married. But when it comes to your financial stability and integrity and ability to move forward and have respect for each other and not want to, blow your own head off or each other's heads off.
Gabrielle:
It's really important that you have these conversations. Especially if you're marrying people from different backgrounds. So, it doesn't matter if you have similar amounts of money, our money narratives are so strong and they really play into how we go through life. I was just going to say, sometimes I have clients who have millions and millions of dollars and they really don't want to spend money on two hours of mediation, where somebody else has very little money and they don't want anything for free. And they just have a different relationship with money.
Catherine:
That's exactly it. Everybody has a different money story and whether it's good or bad, it's an intimidating conversation. But I think if my advice would be for everyone to approach it with an expectation outlook. So it's not really a questioning outlook about the finances, but if you came to your spouse or your partner and said, I just want to discuss expectations as it relates to finances." It's a much gentler, kinder way to walk into that conversation. And it's something, again, like you both said, it's an ongoing conversation. So again, two years into your marriage, you can say, "Maybe our expectations have shifted here, let's re-discuss what our plan was from two years ago to today." And if you start that pattern of expectations, it's really great because it doesn't put anybody on the defensive. Just, is a great conversation to have, and I encourage everyone to have it.
Gabrielle:
I think that that's a really great point. But going back to the idea of having these conversations before you get married. Typically, how we view things, yes, of course, we mature and we grow and we start to see things differently. As we become older, we tend to feel more powerful and more able if things are going in a favorable way. But, who we essentially are? Is sort of there from the beginning and having conversations about all different things, including money, even if the conversations are uncomfortable, you're doing yourself a favor. Even if you end up breaking your engagement, right. Or maybe you say, "We're going to get married." But, you get married with the knowledge of how each other thinks. You just saved yourself in 20 years, like, "Oh My Gosh, who are you?" I never knew conversations. Right.
Catherine:
Exactly. Yeah.
Karen:
Yeah. Gabrielle, how often should the prenup be revisited?
Gabrielle:
So a prenup is just what it says, it's prenuptial. It is created before you get married. And once you are married, you cannot have a new prenup. That would be a postnup. So after you're married, typically actually people don't revisit them all that often. The whole idea is that it's done, right. The only reason that typically people would enter a postnup is that something changed, maybe the economic position of one person or another, or the attitudes of one person or the other has changed. Maybe the people, somebody found out that their husband or wife cheated on them and they want a divorce. And they say, "The only way I'm going to stay with you is if you enter a postnup where I get 80% of everything." And the person says, "I promise, I'll never do it again." And then they call me and I say, "Oh, don't make those promises. You might not keep buddy." Right.
Catherine:
Yeah.
Karen:
Yeah.
Catherine:
Give her the 80%. Yeah. We have a lot of people that come through our and do our portrait. And because we provide a space where they can decompress, where they're gathering information and really let out their feelings on how their financial life has been for the past 20 years or what have you. They come to a new understanding and we send them to mediation afterward, or we send them to a marriage counselor because they decide that they just want to postnup. They want to stay together, but they want a new financial understanding between the two of them. And they want to work on their emotional side, not so much the financial side because that would be taken care of. And I think it's really a good approach if you're not sure whether you want to get divorced or not.
Gabrielle:
Absolutely. I actually have, I train mediators in the Better Apart method. And I have a set of mediators who I refer to, who that's, all they do is people who want to stay married, but need to create new rules for their marriage going forward, right. So it's not one size fits all. It's just when I say that, I mean the outcome is not one size fits all. People can get through all kinds of adversity. You can have really different ways of viewing things. There's always compromise concessions, acquiescence, all different ways to get along, right. But you have to be able to have meaningful conversations to get there. And I'm just going to add in a little conflict resolution tip, when you're stuck in an argument loop, let's say you start having these important premarital conversations or you're already married and you're having a hard time. When we get stuck in a loop, we're typically perseverating on the, what? What we're arguing about? Right. But if we can get beneath the what? And get to the why we care? We can start to have conversations that get some movement.
Gabrielle:
So it's like what we want? That's our wants and the why we want it? Is typically the need. So when we can satisfy our needs, then we can start making agreements with each other. So let's say you're getting married. And one of you wants a big family and one of you doesn't want kids. Well, red flag stop, have a conversation, "Why do you want a big family?" "Well, because we said, we're moving across the country and I don't want to feel isolated." "Why don't you want any kids?" "I feel like I'm going to be pulled in too many directions and I want a career." Well, there's a lot of space in there, right. Maybe you don't need to move across the country. Maybe you can agree to have a nanny. When we get to the why? When we dive into the why? We can create solutions and it's the same thing with financial wellness, "Why do we need $10 million of life insurance?" "Well, if you die, I'm afraid of this, that, and the other thing." "Okay, how else might we find a solution for that?"
Catherine:
So I call that the emotional value to a financial asset. That's finding what's the emotional connection to this asset or to the debt? Why you're acquiring this debt? Because that's really what needs to be fixed or that's the conversation that needs to be fixed. We have the data and we can give your attorneys and your mediators, the data and all the recommendations and considerations and all of that. But then you need to do the work to get to the why? Or the emotional value behind it. Excuse me.
Gabrielle:
Yeah. And, the Better Apart process, that book was written specifically for, [inaudible 00:17:45], can see the book, for people who are going through a divorce, but it's really navigation of getting your own inner alignment in check. So it's like, "How can I slow down? How can I get clear? How do I move past disagreements? How can I address things from a zero valence clear, neutral way?" All of these things are actually important to all of us, whether we're single, married, divorced, an artist at home on a commune or a businesswoman on wall street, no matter who we are. When we are aware of our inner thoughts, we can start changing them, we can start neutralizing and then we can start having important conversations.
Karen:
Yeah. And I think to your point, it's never too late to start having those conversations and start making those agreements. Because I think, the Gray Divorce is a big movement in our country right now. And I feel like it's a lot of people looking for autonomy and having those conversations and having those agreements can create for a lot of people, not for everybody, of course, that level of autonomy that they can continue their relationship that maybe is perfectly intact, except for people have lost their autonomy.
Gabrielle:
That's so on point Karen, that is... That's my story in a way, right. I was really unhappy in my marriage because everything was about my husband and I was very full of resentment. And I wanted to write this book and I was like, "I want to write this book. I want to be a global conversation changer around divorce. And I want to get Gwyneth Paltrow to endorse it." I had this vision and I didn't know what it was going to do to my marriage because I was suddenly playing big or whatever you want to call it. And, it was definitely created some bumps in the road, but there were bumps anyway, right. So, why not see if there's a way that you can make your relationship, whatever that relationship may be like with a spouse or with whomever, see if you can make it work and you change your own behavior? You can always leave. But why not try to change from within the context of the relationship first?
Catherine:
Yeah. And it's a hard conversation because the longer you wait, the harder it is. So the earlier you can do that. Good for you. My daughter did the best thing for me when she got married this past August, the prior year, she gave me the talk, "Mom, I'm not going to be home for every Christmas, Charlie and I will be alternating Christmas and Thanksgiving." And I was kind of like, "What? I can't imagine, not having my daughter there." But she really set me up to like, "This is what we discussed and we're going to alternate holidays, Christmas and Thanksgiving." [crosstalk 00:20:56]. So I was able to settle myself into that as her being my first one to go off and do that to me.
Gabrielle:
Catherine, that's such a great example because case in point, it's not just about who you're married to. We have lots of close relationships, our children, my goodness, right. Your children are like your lifeblood and the idea of not having holidays with them, I have three sons, so I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm never going to see them again." But, I can always try to trap them with me right now. But, but the fact of the matter is, what a gift that your daughter was so clear with you. And I'm sure she was that clear because she had a mom who did a lot of work around clarity and you modeled clarity to her. That's amazing, you should be really proud. You literally gave me complete chills on my arms.
Catherine:
What I thought was the cutest was because of my first holiday that she wasn't here. I was so worried about my son because I always want my kids to always know... As a mom, we all feel like, [inaudible 00:22:04], to know when you're not here, your kids are there to take care of each other, right. And so I remember the first thing, he was like, "Well." Trying to see if he should be with his dad that time because Danielle would be. He was trying to align the two of them. I just was so happy with that. I thought, "Oh, that's so sweet. And maybe they did this with to me."
Gabrielle:
They say it seeps in.
Catherine:
Yeah, it does seep in, right.
Gabrielle:
My kids are total teenagers. So...
Catherine:
Yeah. You'll get there.
Gabrielle:
Right now, you're all just really sweet.
Catherine:
Oh yeah. That's a sweet age. Yeah.
Karen:
All right. Gabrielle, how about three tips for people approaching marriage?
Gabrielle:
Okay. Well, the first one we... [crosstalk 00:22:52]. Right, we've just gone through ad nauseum, which is know your financial picture, have a conversation about what you both need and want. Talk about the idea that you're going to check in every other year for adjustments. And remember taking a pause or a step back is always the best way forward.
Karen:
Love that.
Catherine:
Love that. We both just said that. That's awesome. This is awesome.
Karen:
Thank you, Gabrielle, for being here with us today.
Gabrielle:
It's my pleasure. I always love talking to you guys.
Karen:
We love talking with you too. Such a ball of energy. So this concludes this episode of what you need to know before you get married. Thank you for a great conversation.
Gabrielle:
Thank you.
On this episode of We Chat Divorce we welcomed Grace C. Roessler, Esq. Grace is an associate at Mirick O'Connell's Family Law and Divorce Group in Boston. She concentrates her practice in the areas of divorce and family litigation, including pursuing and defending the following actions: divorce, custody, child support, modification, contempt, request to permanently remove children out of the Commonwealth, paternity, restraining orders, department of children and family investigations, and elder divorce. In short, Grace is a busy person.
She has experience serving as a third-party neutral including court-appointed discovery master and is a certified mediator. While she aims to settle cases amicably and efficiently, including attending voluntary mediation or conciliation, Grace is prepared to litigate the matter in the best interest of the client.
She regularly appears before probate and family court judges, promotions, and trials to litigate on behalf of her clients. She volunteers for the Middlesex Probate and Family Court lawyer for the day program, is an active member and contributor to the Boston Bar Association, and serves as co-chair of the Boston Bar Association Family Newsletter.
Grace was selected by her peers for inclusion in The Best Lawyers in America: Ones to Watch© 2021 and The Best Lawyers in New England: Ones to Watch© 2021 in the field of Family Law. In 2019 and 2020, Boston Magazine and Law & Politics named Grace a Massachusetts “Rising Star.”
Prior to joining Mirick O’Connell, Grace was an associate at the firm of Brick, Sugarman, Jones & McBrien, LLP. Here are her Bar & Court Admissions:
Massachusetts Wisconsin Certified Mediator
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Grace Roessler to discuss how to navigate life insurance during divorce.
Learn More >> https://www.mirickoconnell.com/grace-c-roessler
Connect with Grace on LinkedIn >> @Grace Roessler
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce. [Catherine] and I are honored to welcome attorney Grace Roessler to our podcast. Hello, Grace.
Grace Roessler:
Hello.
Karen:
In this episode, we're going to discuss the different roles life insurance plays in a divorce. But first, let me take just a couple of minutes to introduce Grace. Grace is an associate at Mirick O'Connell's Family Law and Divorce Group in Boston. She concentrates her practice in the areas of divorce and family litigation, including pursuing and defending the following actions: divorce, custody, child support, modification, contempt, request to permanently remove children out of the Commonwealth, paternity, restraining orders, department of children and family investigations, and elder divorce. Grace is a busy person. She has experience serving as a third-party neutral including court-appointed discovery master and is a certified mediator. While she aims to settle cases amicably and efficiently, including attending voluntary mediation or conciliation, Grace is prepared to litigate the matter in the best interest of the client.
Karen:
Grace regularly appears before probate and family court judges, promotions, and trials to litigate on behalf of her clients. She volunteers for the Middlesex probate and family court lawyer for the day program, is an active member and contributor to the Boston Bar Association, and serves as co-chair of the Boston Bar Association Family Newsletter. Look for more of Grace's credentials and the bio attached to this podcast. It's quite impressive. Welcome, Grace.
Grace Roessler:
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Catherine:
Holy cow. That's awesome. Well, life insurance and divorce. That's a topic rarely discussed, and I'm really excited to have you on today and talk to us about it. So let's start by discussing life insurance and why it's so important not to overlook it in divorce. And then let's end our conversation today and talk about what are some options available if life insurance is not accessible to people if they're in divorce, if they can't qualify for it.
Grace Roessler:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So the life insurance with respect to divorce, a lot of the time, it is essentially there or ordered to be in effect in order to make sure that a surviving spouse and any children are financially taken care of in the event that the family member who is currently paying child support or an alimony award predeceases the end of their obligation. And so that's probably one of the main reasons why life insurance becomes part of your separation agreement in a divorce.
Catherine:
Yeah. So a lot of people have whole life policies or they have term policies, and they don't understand the difference between the two.
Grace Roessler:
Right. And so the whole life policy carries with it... Obviously there is some kind of a cash benefit if the individual that's holding the policy were to die, but the whole life policy also carries with it a cash value that's associated with it. And that's something that we always ask people to put on their financial statements as well because it is actually a marital asset. The term policies do not, and the term policies end at certain periods of time. And so when you have a term policy, you might have to renew it as part of your divorce agreement or it's something to consider when you are crafting life insurance provisions, to make sure that if you know that a term policy is ending in say the next year or two, that part of the language that you have in your separation agreement is to ensure that that coverage continues or that it's renewed for another period of time.
Karen:
So I believe we come across a lot of agreements that say they're supposed to produce the policy to make sure it's in full force and effect. I doubt a lot of people do that, but are there other provisions or language that could be an agreement that would help to keep that policy in full force and effect without having to track down those statements?
Grace Roessler:
Yeah. I think there are a few ways that I usually deal with that in my separation agreements. The first is actually, yes, you can certainly put the person that's holding the policy in charge of pursuing or making sure that you're providing that information to the other parent at least once a year.
Grace Roessler:
But another good way to check in on that is actually to make sure that the other person contacts the provider every year or every quarter and makes sure that it is in effect. It's ironic that if you're the person that has the policy in your benefit, yes, once a year, you're supposed to go give it to the other side, but there's a good chance that the other side should be the person coming after you to make sure. I think it's really important for people to follow up on those provisions in their separation agreements. And I agree with you that doesn't always happen. And what you don't want to happen is for that life insurance policy to not be in existence when it should have been or in the event that someone untimely passes.
Catherine:
So let me clarify what you're saying. So if I'm receiving support from my ex-spouse and I'm the beneficiary on his life insurance policy, you're saying that it's my responsibility or I should take ownership in going to, let's say MetLife to get the proof that I'm still the beneficiary. So will MetLife really give me that proof just as the beneficiary or do I have to be listed as the owner on that policy, or do I have to bring my divorce decree stating that I'm entitled to get that information?
Grace Roessler:
Right. So I guess two answers to that. You certainly can be the listed owner of the policy and make sure that your ex-spouse is the one paying for the policy. That is one way to ensure that a policy will exist. In terms of getting that proof, generally speaking, no, MetLife would not necessarily give you the proof of the policy. But in that situation. And in my case, what I normally do is notify the carrier of the person that has the policy, give them some kind of letter that says, "As you know, per our separation agreement, you are supposed to carry this life insurance policy. Please give me a most recent copy of the policy existence and the beneficiary determination page so that I can confirm and keep it in my records." And if that person doesn't respond to you within a week or two, I always recommend to clients that we need to file a complaint for contempt because you don't want that policy to lapse.
Grace Roessler:
If it has lapsed, the other person might have to go back to the drawing board to obtain an entirely new policy, which does take a while, especially in COVID where the physicals that are associated with that life insurance policy are hard to schedule. There's just a backlog of people, since they weren't doing in-home visits for a period of months. So I always say you should file the contempt. You can always withdraw it once you are in receipt of proof of that insurance policy and the correct beneficiary designation, but it is totally worth it to make sure that you have that on the books, to make sure that it's there.
Catherine:
Can you put language in the agreements to read that if a policy lapsed that I would have the right to sue his estate?
Grace Roessler:
Yes, absolutely. And in those situations, it would be what we call a complaint in equity against the estate because technically, if the other person is deceased, you're not going to file that complaint under your divorce agreement docket number. It would get a new docket number with the probate and family court and you would be suing the estate. And as part of that... And I always put that language in there, that if you fail to have that life insurance policy at the time that you die, and if it was supposed to be intact, that your ex-spouse could come after your estate.
Grace Roessler:
The interesting part about that is sometimes there is an estate to be had, and that's when the parties will fight or their estate will fight with you about what is left and what you should have received. In some cases, there won't be much of an estate left, and that's where people are really left with not much. And again, that's why it's so important to make sure that that life insurance policy is intact, to do the check-in once a year because you could be very left with a situation where the estate is maybe only a vehicle and a few thousand dollars in cash, depending upon how the person lived their life. So you just never know what's going to be left over.
Karen:
So are there times when it's just better to pay that policy yourself or have that... It seems like that would just cut to the chase. And I know financial wherewithal would factor into that, but-
Grace Roessler:
Yeah. I think that sometimes it is better, especially if you've been married to them, you know what their habits are, if they're not really reliable, or if they haven't necessarily spent money wisely during the course of your marriage. You can bet that that person's probably going to continue those same bad habits. And so I agree. I think in some instances, if you have the financial capability to take the life insurance policy out on the person, you should. I think that there should still be some consideration for having to do that.
Grace Roessler:
So one way that I have done it in the past is we can calculate how much the premiums are on that policy every year for duration of the life insurance term or how long the policy is supposed to be in place and we can cut that out of the other person's share of the assets. So essentially, they have prepaid you for the premium cost for the entire amount of time that the policy is supposed to be in place, and that person has prepaid you from his or her assets that are being divided at the divorce. So it's a very clean break.
Catherine:
Yeah. So the best way to control the policy is to become the owner because the owner is the one who gets all the notifications and can change anything on the policy. The insured is just the insured. The owner is the one who has the control over it. So I always recommend you being the owner of the policy, but you also can buy paid-up policies. It's just we always hear a lot of attorneys say, "You can't make them get a policy if they don't already have a policy in place." So I like hearing this version of it, except that there's support for... Even with equitable distribution, sometimes it takes a while to get your assets divided. I mean, I don't see a lot of policies being put in place if they're not in place, Karen, do you know?
Karen:
No. As a matter of fact, when we ask about that, we usually get shut down. To your point, you can't force them to purchase a policy. You have to use the coverage already in existence.
Grace Roessler:
I think to some extent, it's true that if you are doing an agreement and it is agreed upon by the parties, I don't think that you can force people to do that. I think a judge has the authority to issue that kind of an order. And if you continue to bring this up at a pretrial conference or at a trial, I think that the judge certainly has the ability, and in my experience, has ordered individuals to either obtain life insurance and/or obtain additional life insurance to supplement whatever their employer-sponsored policy is or a temporary policy is, especially if we know that temporaries might expire in a year or two or three after a divorce.
Grace Roessler:
All of that information certainly would be presented to the judge at a trial for the judge to be able to order that because it is a form of security and the courts are certainly going to care about that security, especially if you have young children. If you have a five-year-old or a six-year-old or a seven-year-old, you've got 20-some years 19 years worth of support that you would be paying. And if you die three years or four years after that judgment, that is a whole lot of money that the surviving parent is short that you would have paid. You would have paid that as part of the child support order. Most of that money probably could have also gone to college. And so I think the judges are very... especially in light of COVID where we just don't know what's going to happen to people's health if they do get sick, I think the courts are very aware of the need for the security blanket, if you will, for the life insurance.
Catherine:
A lot of times, it should be pointed out, in insurance policies, if you don't change the beneficiary, they're irrevocable. So even though your divorce order might state that you're the beneficiary, if your actual policy states that somebody else is the beneficiary, what are the chances of it reverting back to you?
Grace Roessler:
I'll tell you that the answer is a court has to order it. And so I've been on all three sides of that equation. I have represented the insurance company, and I have to tell you, they are neutral in that. Most of the time, the insurance companies are able to get out of a case by simply being able to agree that whatever the court decides, we will implement, because the insurance company does not want to be involved in this battle. On its surface, though, they will do exactly what that beneficiary designation says. So unless it's altered by the court, you're right. They're going to just stick to their guns and say, "This is what it said." It really does. It takes a court to be able to alter that determination.
Grace Roessler:
And I've been successful in doing that by proving that someone had this obligation to their first spouse. They clearly willfully did not put their first spouse on as the designee. The second spouse received all 500-some million-some. And to show why that was inappropriate, and to show that there might be still minor children here, or the person had an alimony obligation that was still not fulfilled.
Grace Roessler:
And that is a contract. And so under contract law, that individual breached their own contract. And therefore, as a result, the court is able to come in and swipe that money for whatever was due for that ex-spouse at the time of death. But it takes an equity action. It takes a court action to do that, which can be expensive, which is another reason why in terms of avoiding these kinds of issues, that's why either, as you said, owning the policy yourself to make sure that it's intact, or regularly checking in with your ex-spouse every year to make sure it's intact because on the backend, it's a lot of work to try to get the money back once it's been either distributed or once the person dies.
Karen:
Yeah. Can you imagine being a spouse and not knowing that that other obligation existed? That would be insane.
Grace Roessler:
When people come to me for let's say a modification... maybe it's a child support modification; maybe it's a contempt... one of the first things I actually look at in their agreement is whether or not there's a life insurance obligation. I just did it yesterday. And I say before I take the client, before I file anything with this new action, I look at that and I ask them, "I see you have a life insurance policy you're obligated to have. Do you still have it? Let me see it. I want to see it." Because every time that you reentered the court system, you're going to be looked at again for everything that you're doing under this contract. And that life insurance policy, that's going to be raised no matter what you file. It will be raised. And it's very important to still have it in place.
Karen:
Yeah. Incredible.
Catherine:
I'm so glad that you're so upfront with everyone or with your client, and you set it out there. You set out there for them so there's no running around. There's no trying to get around it. It just sets out the intention so that if they want to try to get around it, they're the ones that are hurting themselves.
Grace Roessler:
That's right.
Catherine:
You have an obligation. I always say if people would just know you're getting married, if you get divorced, this is what it is, just bite the bullet and move on.
Grace Roessler:
Right. Yeah. And I think to that extent, the life insurance provisions, it's usually later in the separation agreement. It's exhibit E, it's D, it's F. It's somewhere in the back. And it really should be A. It should be right there in the front because it is your protection. It is the backup plan. And so much of what we do is what is the consequence of X, Y, Z? And the consequence of not having this life insurance policy in place is really disastrous for a child, for the ex-spouse. That's still left holding the bag, trying to either help themselves or raise a child. It's just the impact is so great that it really should be top-of-mind for anybody who is either thinking about going back into litigation, or as I said, on a yearly basis, doing that check-in to make sure it exists because you're going to need it. It's expensive to live, and there's a reason that you negotiated for it in the first place.
Catherine:
It's changed the dialogue, changed this from an emotional conversation to a factual one. And then is, "Why did we acquire this life insurance?" Even when we compile people's portraits and we bring up the life insurance, "Well, we're not keeping that because if anything happens to me, my ex's boyfriend or girlfriend is not getting that money. Or if anything happens to me, my kids are getting enough money that they don't need this money." And it's even when people are married and why they don't buy life insurance. "If anything happens to me, my kids will have enough insurance." But what they're not doing is really doing the number-crunching and realizing that they're buying pennies on the dollars when they're buying life insurance. And they're not [crosstalk] the real cost for what your estate's really going to be worth and why you have in place. And that's the conversation that needs to be had.
Grace Roessler:
Right. If I could just share, I had a case a couple of years back where I had represented a woman in her paternity suit, and then I represented her in a contempt. She had asked her ex for proof of the life insurance policy. And a few weeks went by. He hadn't responded. And so I told her, "We need to file a contempt just to make sure." At the time, they had a little daughter who was three and he was supposed to carry a $300,000 life insurance policy. We ended up taking him to court. He was found in contempt. The judge gave him 30 days to get a new life insurance policy because he had, in fact, allowed the other one to lapse. And we came back to court. He had the life insurance policy, 300,000. Everything was fine.
Grace Roessler:
A few months later, he died. He died of cancer. It was very quick. He was young. He was a professional. You never would have known, but it happened. And if it hadn't been for filing that initial contempt and following through and spending the $2,000 in legal fees to make sure that it existed, she would never have had the $300,000 that she received from the life insurance policy, which I can tell you has now grown to almost $500,000 in the last seven years, 10 years since we've had this action, and her little girl is going to be able to go to college with that money. And that's something you don't always think about at the time, but that's really what this is about, is planning ahead into the future so that you're not the only one that's financial responsible and that your ex-spouse in his or her own way continues to support your child or you depending upon what you negotiated.
Catherine:
Yeah. That's life-changing.
Karen:
Absolutely. So what about if a person's not insurable?
Grace Roessler:
There have been cases where people aren't insurable. If you've had certain types of cancer, some mental health diagnoses. The insurance companies shy away from depression, history of depression, that kind of thing. I think in years to come, there won't be as much of an issue with that. But for now, there is. And so one of the other things that we can bargain for is to be beneficiary of existing assets. So if you have a retirement account, that you still remain the beneficiary of the retirement account. If you have a home, you could put the home in trust and be the beneficiary of the trust on the home. Those are things that exist already. You don't have to pay for them per se, but it's an additional safety net, and sometimes it's easier for people to do that. And there's no premium associated with that particularly, so it's also a cheaper option for people that if you use your existing assets, you can figure out what's there and be able to save those for the ex-spouse.
Catherine:
That's a great idea. And also, if you're listening and you have current term renewable and convertible policies, we see them when they come in with our portrait, we look at the dates, and some of them are convertible to whole life policies without proving insurability. So even though you're going through a divorce, you might want to call your insurance agent and have that converted now to a permanent policy.
Grace Roessler:
That's a great idea. I just got the envelope for one of my own, actually. Yeah. But yeah, it happens, and it's a good thing. [crosstalk] good record with your current insurer, they'll do that for you. So you can always ask too. Divorce is hard to talk about sometimes, but it's better for more professional people in your life to know what you're going through so that if you have that conversation with your insurance broker, they also still might be able to help you. I think that it's time to get creative with your solutions, and that's one thing that I like to pride myself on is just trying to be creative with what we can do for someone.
Catherine:
Absolutely. Three minds are always better than one.
Grace Roessler:
Absolutely.
Karen:
So do you have any other final tips for people as it relates to life insurance before we conclude?
Grace Roessler:
Like I said, my only other tip is if it seems like you're not getting a response from your ex-spouse, that's usually not a good sign and you should not be afraid to take quick action to go to court to fix it, because generally, people do cure the issue before you have a hearing, and that's the entire point of filing anything. It's not to get even. It's not to spend a ton of money. It's to fix a problem and to make sure that everyone is doing what they're supposed to do. And so I guess my final tip is don't ever be afraid to make that first step of filing something about life insurance because if you're looking at trying to save a $300,000 policy or a $500,000 policy, in the long run, if you file a contempt and you spend a grand or two on that issue, it is still completely worth it to make sure that that policy exists.
Karen:
Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So all of you out there who've been divorced and you're still receiving some type of payments or whatever from your spouse, check your agreement. If there's life insurance obligations, make sure you have yourself protected. That's incredibly valuable. Well, Grace, thank you so much for being with us today. This concludes this episode on the many roles life insurance plays in the divorce process. Thank you for a great conversation.
Grace Roessler:
You're very welcome. Thank you very much for inviting me on. And I hope that everyone learned a little something this afternoon.
Catherine:
Thank you, Grace.
Karen:
[crosstalk] did.
Grace Roessler:
Thank you.
On this episode of We Chat Divorce we welcomed Dr. Elizabeth Cohen, Ph.D. a/k/a The Divorce Doctor. Dr. Cohen is the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership called Afterglow: The Light at the Other Side of Divorce. Her online course teaches women how to heal, grow and thrive after divorce no matter how difficult the process has been. She offers a monthly membership program to provide 1:1 coaching, expert support from divorce professionals and an engaged community of like-minded people.
Dr. Cohen received her PhD in clinical psychology from Boston University. She was the recipient of the prestigious American Psychological Foundation Research Award for her research on the emotional effects of 9/11. She has been featured on the Tamron Hall Show, the Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women’s Health, Huff Post, Thrive Global, Daily Beast and Good Housekeeping. Dr. Cohen is a weekly contributor to Psychology Today with her “Divorce Course” column. Dr. Cohen hosts the Divorce Doctor podcast where she interviews people about their divorce experiences. Dr. Cohen’s book based on her Afterglow program entitled, - Light on the Other Side of Divorce: Discovering the New You was published on April 20, 2021! Congratulations Dr. Cohen!
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Dr. Cohen to discuss how to Heal, Grow and Thrive Beyond Divorce.
Learn More >> https://drelizabethcohen.com/afterglow/
Purchase Dr. Cohen’s new book! - Light on the Other Side of Divorce: Discovering the New You
Find The Divorce Doctor – Elizabeth Cohen, Ph.D. on Facebook >>
Follow Dr. Cohen on Instagram >> @thedivorcedoctor
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST
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Karen Chellew:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Catherine and I are honored to welcome Dr. Elizabeth Cohen to our podcast today. In this episode we're going to introduce you, our listeners, to discuss how to heal, grow, and thrive beyond divorce. Dr. Cohen has been there. She really, truly knows how it feels to have your life derailed by divorce. She's a leading expert and I love this, is known as the divorce whisperer and the divorce doctor. Clearly, she knows what she's talking about. As a therapist, who has worked with hundreds of divorcing clients, she has developed the Afterglow Method, which teaches clients how to rediscover a life of growth, change, and abundance post breakup.
Karen Chellew:
We're going to have some great conversation today. Let me just tell you a little bit more about her. Dr. Cohen is a clinical psychologist based out of New York, but helps people across the nation through telehealth. Dr. Cohen is the CEO of the Center For CBT in New York City. She has been featured on the Tamron Hall Show, the Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women's Health Huff Post, Thrive Global, Daily Beast, and Good Housekeeping. Wow. Dr. Cohen is a weekly contributor to Psychology Today with her Divorce Course column. She's the CEO and founder of the Online Divorce Course and Membership Afterglow, The Light at the Other Side of Divorce. And we're going to talk about that during our program today because Dr. Cohen's new book Light on the Other Side of Divorce, Discovering the New You, will be published soon, April 2021, just a week or so away. Congratulations, Dr. Cohen, and thanks so much for being here.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Thanks so much. I'm so happy to be with both of you and to be with your audience.
Catherine Shanahan:
I'm exhausted listening to that intro. How do you do it? I also wish our listeners were on our conversation before. I will say, you're just a joy to talk to already and we haven't even begun. So this will be a great conversation. Fun for everyone to listen to.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah, I'm really excited.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. So your book is patterned after your Afterglow Program from what I can see, right?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Talk to us a little bit about that.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah, it is. And actually, Catherine, when you say like, oh my gosh, you're so tired with reading what I'm doing. I mean, I have to say, me too. Hearing that, I felt a little tired. But I have to say, I wrote the book and I created the online program for the people who were going through what I went through. When I was going through a divorce 11 years ago, I was one night, finally put my young, young kids to bed. I don't even know if I had showered that day. I opened my laptop in bed and looked and Googled divorce recovery program. And I really couldn't find anything. That was a moment where, I didn't realize this until later, that it sent me a message that it's kind of shameful to get divorced. We don't offer suggestions of how to move through because you're not going to. That was like the implicit message that I got.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
And I wanted to create the program, the online program, to reach people and to create the book, so that no one ever had to feel like they had to piece together a program the way I did. And I have the privilege of having the education that I knew where to look, but most people don't. And you know, you're dealing with finances, you're dealing with lawyers. So I wanted it a comprehensive program for people. And there's two modalities, right? You can read it in the book and you can work with the worksheets in the book, or you can have more interaction with me through the videos and through the online community online. So it's really for wherever you are, I want this information to be accessible. Not everyone going through a divorce can afford therapy, can find the time for therapy. So I really wanted to make it, as I said, accessible for everybody.
Karen Chellew:
I love that.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. I found that really interesting because 11 years ago, when I got divorced and then after meeting Karen, we realized that there was no place to go to get financial knowledge, to look at the documents and access them. And then to get some recommendations and consideration, unless you went through this whole legal battle somehow, where do you go? Because I had the gift of having a financial background, I was able to piece it all together and put it all together.
Catherine Shanahan:
And then I afterwards had the gift of meeting Karen, who knows how to get all the documents organized and ready for court, if you need to go that route, or to even just validate what we have. But it's so nice to partner up with you here because having all of our experiences, for everybody else going out there, that's the benefit, we've already gone through it. And now we can organize a financial life and an emotional life. What better way to move forward through something that you should not be ashamed of and that's being divorced.
Karen Chellew:
That's so true.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Absolutely. Absolutely and I think if tomorrow morning I woke up and suddenly I had to file my taxes, I would be screwed. I am not a CPA, right? But for some reason, I don't know if it's the shame of divorce, we get divorced and suddenly we think we're supposed to do everything. We're supposed to know exactly how to manage our finances and have a perfect budget. We're supposed to know how to date again.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
We're supposed to know how to step through our emotions. Absolutely not, you need a team. And that's what I love about the work that you both do, is that, I mean, if I had had the gift of women like you guiding me, lovingly, compassionately showing me what I can and can't do, financially, I would have had so much less guilt and shame. And the process would have been so much smoother. So I think having a team approach is so important and saying, when you don't know what you don't know.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely. We said that together.
Catherine Shanahan:
None of us know everything. Nobody out there knows everything.
Karen Chellew:
Right and when we first started our company, it was a three phase model then, and now we just do the financial portrait. But we still have the same conversation with our clients when they first come to us. That look, there's three areas, financial, emotional, and physical aspects of divorce, that pretty much need alignment for you to be able to navigate through the best way. So having those three areas in alignment really does help. And so you may be more supported in one area than another. But finding the resources you need to bring the balance to all three, I think, is so important.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
It's so important. And you have to remember, I mean, the people that I work with are still, especially before they're divorced, getting texts, getting emails from their previous partner, and are very triggered by the mention of money, or the mention of co-parenting, or the mention of emotional... anything. And so if you have a team, I can call up Catherine and Karen say, "Oh my God, I just got this call and now they want to move this to here. What do you think?" You don't have to be alone with it. That was the most difficult thing, was having to manage the actual logistics and my emotions. So to have someone be able to help with that, is just a gift.
Karen Chellew:
I so agree.
Catherine Shanahan:
And also, knowing what your talent is. When we're able to work with our clients on their financial piece, they get to leave it right there. They get to work on their financial piece with us. That's the role with us. And then when they go to you, they don't have to spend all their time with you talking about the financial piece. They really get to work on themselves and what you're gifted to do with them. So it really helps them take full benefit of the resources available to them, which is really uplifting to a lot of people.
Karen Chellew:
I agree. And when I'm going to do a budget, so many people are so nervous about facing the budget, it's such a dirty word. But when they come to you then and say, "Karen wants me to do a budget." Just to get that emotional support, to say, "Just take one step," and supporting them emotionally, because it is a huge transition to start to take ownership of your finances. And that budget is the first step and it's the scariest step. But being able to take one step at a time is hugely important.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah and I think also, Karen and Catherine, I think that one of the things that I can really help people look at, also, is what is coming up when you have the fear of budgeting? Because everyone's fear is different. Maybe in my family, when I had to do it, I had a parent who was a gambler. So that was a whole history that I had to work through, that I think I brought to many accountants and many financial planners, they don't know what to do with me because I am so emotional, right? That was something for my therapist. And so everyone has a reason why, a different flavor of their anxiety to budgeting. And so if you're working with someone like me, right, we can really tease it apart and understand it and heal that part. So you can show up fully for both of you and your work.
Catherine Shanahan:
Well, that really speaks so loudly about a lifestyle analysis, because we don't only just do a budget. We do a lifestyle analysis because if you're a wealthy person and you've been a stay-at-home mom and you've just been living with a credit card and you really haven't been in charge of the marital estate at all, you don't really know how to transform your lifestyle into a budget. So in doing a lifestyle analysis, it's so great to be able to say, "Go to Dr. Cohen and she'll talk through why your lifestyle is like that."
Catherine Shanahan:
Because even myself, I used to buy things just to buy things that I was missing in my marriage, right? And then of course you have the buyer's remorse later. I know it's nice I was able to buy those things and I thought that our marriage was all about that. We finally got to a point that I could do that, but the loneliness was still there. But us, as financials, can't work through that loneliness piece. We may have to tell you that your lifestyle is going to change. It may go for the better, it may go for the worst, it may stay indifferent. But then to send them to you to work on why those needs are there. It's such a really powerful piece for somebody to take control of themselves again.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. I agree.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
I just thought of something, which is, I have a chapter in the book called Living Life By Design, Not By Default. And I'm thinking that if you're doing this, let's say you do this lifestyle plan with them and they realize that they have to shift things. Then they come to me and we really talk about, Life By Design, Not By Default is all about what do you really want and what do you really need, right?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
And small things like, "Do you want a space where you have candles? Do you want to paint the wall blue or pink?" I had no idea when I first got divorced, I don't know if this was your experience, what I wanted or what I liked, right? That was a process. So they can take what you have and the numbers and what they can actually afford. And then we can talk about, "Oh, what do you want to do with that? What feels right? What lights you up?" I know for me, that was the hardest and exciting part of divorce.
Catherine Shanahan:
For me it was, I wanted a bedroom. I wanted my master bedroom to be all warm and cozy, and I walked in, and I set a goal. So I got divorced when I was 44, I started at 45. And at 50, I said, "When I turn 50, I want my dream bedroom." I just want it to look... I have a chandelier, I saved for that. And that was so rewarding to me, to be able to take the pictures of that room. I love my room every day that I walk into it.
Catherine Shanahan:
I just feel so at peace there. Anyone that comes to my home loves my bedroom and my master bathroom. And now that I'm remarried, my husband even likes it because I did it in the grays and the neutrals [crosstalk 00:12:17]. So it's still acceptable on both levels. But it is so true, to add that into your future. And it's something really to look forward to, and then to talk through. Pity I didn't know you then, Elizabeth, because we would have been on the phone all the time.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
All the time, oh my God. All the time.
Karen Chellew:
Oh, that's great. Well, let's highlight a couple of more chapters in your book. I love the one, Divorce Is Not So Bad, Attacking Assumptions About Divorce. What's that all about?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah. So it still shocks me, it's 2021 and people will come into my office and will say, "My son just started dating someone. They're really lovely, except that they come from a divorced home or they come from a broken family." This is 2021 and we still have a stigma of divorce, that there's something wrong with it. It is deeply ingrained in us, we marinate in it. So I start the book and I start my program really where, I think, you have to start, which is looking at your thoughts and assumptions about divorce, and about marriage.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
So what are the messages that people in your family have taught you? What are the messages we've learned, I mean, hello, Disney movies, from every pop culture about what happens after marriage, right? The movie stops happily ever after. What do we learn about divorced families and really challenging it. I have this suggestion in there and I have practices about practicing this every day. What if you were to say, "My relationship has come to its perfect and absolute best closure. I've gotten everything I needed and that's all there is," just think about how different-
Catherine Shanahan:
I love it.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
... that would be.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. I always say my marriage was never a failure. It lasted as long as it was supposed to last.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Exactly. But I think you're unique in that, Catherine. I think most people either take the other person's inventory or are afraid of it, blame someone, themselves, or the other person for why it ended. Instead of saying like it did this beautiful thing, I have on my website, divorce is an opportunity, divorce is growth, right? Divorce is an opportunity to shift.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
I sometimes joke that it's graduate school for relationships. If you decide to face the divorce in the way that I encourage, and I know you both do too, of not focusing on the other and focusing on yourself. Then it's an opportunity to learn so much about yourself. It's such a gift. So that chapter is all about really looking at what your assumptions are, where they're coming from, and how to challenge them.
Karen Chellew:
Wow. That's great, because then that cycles down to your ability to communicate with your children in a healthier way, so that they're not carrying that burden and assumption. I know my children were five and seven when I went through my divorce. And we were from a religious background, the kids went to a private school.
Karen Chellew:
So by default, some children were not even allowed to sit next to them at the lunch table. I guess they thought divorce was contagious. Some of my married friends who were no longer... So I think in a lot of settings, that is some people's experience and some children's experience. So to your point of kind of reframing that for yourself and your family allows a more healthier journey through the process. So I love that.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Absolutely. Absolutely, and I recommend that people really write down three things they gained from their divorce. Like for example, one small example I gave in the book is I was able to watch whatever TV show I wanted in bed. Again, not a huge thing, but that was a little gain I got.
Catherine Shanahan:
That is huge.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
That's huge.
Karen Chellew:
It is huge.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Right? Catherine got the bedroom she wanted, right? That's what she got. And for me, if I had had the gift and opportunity to work with you both, I would have thought, "Oh my God, my divorce allowed me to get clear on my money. What a gift." I would have just stayed in-
Catherine Shanahan:
Start over.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Right. To be clear and supported. And so I think you're absolutely right about really watching the words we use around our children and around other people. We set the tone when we talk to people. So when people started asking me about how I was doing with my divorce, I would always use a positive word. Like very often people say, "I'm so sorry." And I'd say, "Oh no, no, please say congratulations. I'm very," [crosstalk 00:17:09]. Did you say that too?
Catherine Shanahan:
Yes.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah, right. Like please and so-
Catherine Shanahan:
Why are you sorry that I'm finally finding some happiness. Don't be sorry for me.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Exactly and I thought that was a way to kind of slowly, one person at a time, change the stigma. I had this experience where people said to one of two things to me. "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry," or, "How did you do it?" And I realized, I mean, as a therapist, we call it projection. Everyone just responds based on their own stuff. It has nothing to do with me. So just know that you can totally set the tone when people come to you and ask you about it, think about the words you use.
Catherine Shanahan:
And think about the words you use when you're talking to somebody going through this. It doesn't have to be, "You should get them or you should get her for everything that she's got or oh my God, tell me what went wrong or, oh my God, were they cheating? Or who were they cheating with, or where are they going?" Immediately when you are approaching somebody who's gone through a divorce, you want to hear the dramatic story. [crosstalk 00:18:13] be about that, try to change the dialogue that you're setting off to people going through the process. That would be so rewarding.
Catherine Shanahan:
Everybody says, "What can we do for my friend, who's going through this? Or what can I do for my sister?" How about changing the way that you speak to them? And don't look at others going through a divorce when they're sitting at the bar, "Oh, here she is, a divorcee looking to pick somebody up." No, maybe she's just going to have a drink by herself, just wants to get out of the house because they don't say that to men. They just say, "There he is at the bar." If a woman's sitting there, it's almost like taboo. She's not allowed to be there by herself.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Really good point.
Catherine Shanahan:
Change the way that we look at other women going through the process. It would be really helpful to the divorcee, to help them feel not shamed or not frowned upon, actually.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah. I think that's such a good point. And I think if we shift, I tell this story in the book about sitting in the playground and one of the parents from my kid's school said, "Oh, we don't see your ex-husband a lot. What's the deal with him?" I mean, I just told like every terrible, terrible story. And as I was telling it, I felt vindicated and I mean, their jaws were dropped. They couldn't believe it because there were some really intense stories.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
And after I walked away, I'll tell you both, I felt like crap. I felt terrible. And in that moment I said, "I can't keep doing this. I can't define my divorce on his bad behavior." I mean, I could and I could have a lot of stories. But that is not going to help me. So that was the moment when I said, "I'm the one who ended up here, how did I get here? Let me focus on me. The only person I can control is me." And that's really where I thought of it as like, we call it post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic stress. And you're saying like-
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, I love that.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Right? So for, Catherine, you're saying like, if you see someone going through a divorce, ask them first, "Oh, tell me what you've learned? Or what's going better for you? Or what are you enjoying now?" Really shifting it because we do really set the tone. I have a chapter in my book too, about how to get the best support from friends. And honestly, it's-
Catherine Shanahan:
Oh yes, we highlighted that.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Good, if someone isn't supportive, forget it. You don't have time for that. You just don't have time for that, right?
Catherine Shanahan:
Right, got-
Karen Chellew:
And that's okay. Totally okay.
Catherine Shanahan:
You said a couple of things I really want to comment on. My gosh, I could talk to you forever. We have such a parallel story, for one.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
I know, and I love what you suggested about people really watching the words when they support their friend and about sitting at the bar. You're so right. It's so gendered.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yes, it's crazy. So you talked about post-traumatic growth, right?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yes.
Catherine Shanahan:
And Karen and I say this all the time, and we talk about possibilities. I always said, through my divorce, "There's endless possibilities out there," right? But what we get to see, from our work, what we're doing, is individuals and typically it's the women, I have to say still, that are redefining their stories with money. So first they come apologizing, "Oh my gosh. I'm so embarrassed. I didn't take control of our finances. I feel like such a failure. My husband did all this work. I don't understand anything. I feel so stupid." And none of those are the case. Women are very savvy. They just weren't given the opportunity to play that role in their marriage.
Catherine Shanahan:
But when we shift gears with them and Karen starts with their budgeting and making them comfortable with that. You start working with them, analyzing why their lifestyle is that for their budget. And then we give them the tools that they need to understand their finances, to move on with their financial planners or whoever they have to move on, after us. They start redefining a new story for themselves. This is a clean slate. I now get to sign my tax return and understand what I'm signing. I now get to make these financial decisions because I'm making them. Good, bad, or indifferent, I'm making that decision for the rest of my life. It's really rewarding and so powerful, what financial clarity gives somebody. I just love what we do because of that.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. And we hear a lot of this as well, pivoting from, "Well, he's told me that this is the truth, or he said, this is the way it is, or he said this, or he said that," to, "I'm going to make a decision too. This is my best decision. This is what I want to do." So it's not a negative that he said, but so many women frame their opinion or their conclusions based on what he said. So right or wrong, it's not their opinion or their conclusion. So to help people get to that place of making their own decisions and feeling comfortable because sometimes they don't even trust their own gut to make a good decision.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Exactly. I mean, I think also many people, who have been in relationships where maybe they have given over the decision-making or they have tried a lot of people pleasing, right? It's going to be really hard to trust yourself. And as you were talking, Karen, I'm thinking trust yourself to make a decision and trust yourself to make a mistake.
Karen Chellew:
Oh, that's so good.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Right?
Karen Chellew:
Yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Like I have chills, right? We learn from mistakes, you know? and we're constantly shifting and I really want to make this clear, what you needed at one time, might not be you need now. We are amazing beings, that we shift and change. And that's the affirmation about the relationship, like that relationship worked for me back then. I have so many friendships and so many relationships that worked for me at a time. They say a reason people come into your life, a reason, a season, or a lifetime. Have you heard that?
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. I say it all the time, mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Right and so this is, that person is here to teach you something. And maybe what you're learning is like, I can make a mistake and bounce back from that. Doesn't have to be perfect.
Catherine Shanahan:
Right, I actually think my daughter said this to me. She said really two powerful things to me. Well, she said a lot of powerful things. One of them was, "Mom, I think you're sad because you thought you had something that you didn't." And I thought, "That's exactly right." Some of us think we have this relationship that we wanted to have, but we didn't really have. And so that's where a lot of the guilt comes, or the regret, or what have you.
Catherine Shanahan:
But another thing I want to ask you, how do you handle this with your clients? Because another dialogue that I think the outsider says to the person going through divorce is, "Your spouse is a idiot. Just get over it. You should be so happy. Move on. Why are you crying? This is ridiculous. Move on with your life." Everybody has to move at their own pace, right? It was two and a half before I truly healed and was ready to walk again. So everybody's different. Everyone moves at their own pace. And how do you work with your clients to say, "Hey, let's just take this one step at a time. Don't listen to all the others out there, who love you, but may be guiding you on a path you're not ready for,"?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah. So in the chapter called Friends Or Foes, about how to get the best support, I talk about a taxonomy of four different types of people in your life. I have an exercise where you really kind of list all the people in your life and figure out what category they're in, and they could be one of many. So the first category is what we call a cheerleader. This is your person who, no matter what you do, is like, "You are amazing."
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
You're like, "Oh my God, I got a flat tire and hit this other car." They're like, "Oh my gosh, you're such a good problem solver. You already have the tow truck there," right? They just always upride you, is how I think of it. Then there's the confidants, those people you can talk to all hours of the night. I feel like you could be both of these for me, just talk, and talk, and talk, and they'll listen, and they'll support you.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
But then there are people who are what I call wayshowers. So in writing the book, I'm one of those, Catherine and Karen, with your experience, we're people who've gone through what you've gone through and we can show you the way. We might not be the people you're calling every night, we might not be your cheerleaders, right? Or your confidants, but we've shown you the way and you want to learn from us.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
And then the other one, I like to think of them as like the fairies. They're the ones who kind of network you. So you're sitting on the train, at least when we used to take trains, and you just start chatting with someone. And they tell you about a new condo complex that's coming up and you're looking for a place, or someone who mentions a fun dating site and how they had coaching around it. Those are people who you just meet for the network.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
And I bring these up, these are the four supports, we'll get to the next one, because at least for me, I, at times, wanted everyone to be all of those. I got them really confused. And the more who you can go to for what, the better you are. And the last group are what I call the naysayers. And we all have them. There's something in psychology, I think it's the confirmation bias, where, I did this, we go to the naysayers, even though we know what they're going to say. I think we think if we convince them that we've won, right? And I just say, don't do that. Stop going to the naysayers.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
The person who said, "He's terrible break up with him." Don't talk to her so much about the divorce. And if you do, I have this exercise where you try to use these other words of opportunity, you kind of shift the conversation. So I want to let people know, you are in control of who you talk to, and what you share, and how much of it you share. You could say to someone, I explain this in the book too, "Hey, I know you're really trying to help me and it sounds like this is something that would be helpful for you. The way you're talking about my ex is just getting me more riled up. So why don't we just go and talk about this cool TV show on Netflix?" Right?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
You can set that boundary, but you have to really be aware. Just like the ex is not who we should focus on. We are in control of who we talk to. What we share as our divine, special secret. And we don't have to share that with anybody. So I really had to learn that the hard way.
Catherine Shanahan:
I love that chapter and I love that exercise. I think that is fabulous. That was so good.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah. So glad.
Karen Chellew:
I love it. And we cannot end this podcast without talking a little bit about righteous anger. I heard you talking on other podcasts about this and it's fabulous. Can you please touch on that?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Of course, everyone loves to talk about this. I love to talk about it too. In the book I wrote, I get giddy when I think about it, because it's an emotion that we've just been told, especially for women, to disavow it completely. So I have to start this conversation by saying that all emotions are excitations in the brain. That's what they are. Joy, excitement, pride, those are the same excitations as sadness, grief, and anger. It's the judgment we put on it that really taints it.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
The brain has no valence for these different emotions. It's us who give it power, positive or negative. So I describe righteous anger, and usually people think about righteous anger is you're being politically active or socially active. And I use the word righteous because you all have a right to be super pissed off. If you're going through a divorce, I'm sure there are things that you have absolute understandable need to be angry about.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
I think anger is a beautiful emotion, just like all emotions. The problem is, most of us are told not to be angry. Get over it, how many of us heard like, "You're fine," right? Or this one kills me the most, "It could be so much worse, at least you have fill in the blank," right? Or for women, "Pipe down, whoa." All of these messages-
Catherine Shanahan:
You're getting aggressive.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
You're getting aggressive, right? Using the B word, right? Instead of like, "No, I'm just being assertive, saying how I'm actually feeling. And I'm frustrated." We're allowed to be irritable. We're allowed to be frustrated, but we're allowed to be angry. So I really want to let people know, if you've gone through a divorce, totally able to have righteous anger. Problem is we push it down and it comes out sideways. So we snap at our kids, we have road rage. It comes out in a different way, at our lawyer, at our financial planner, right? It comes out other ways. And we know this, right? As people working through a divorce, right?
Catherine Shanahan:
At your business partner.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Exactly. At your business partner, at your partner partner. All the time, right?
Karen Chellew:
The next person who walks in the room person.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Exactly, exactly. So let's do them all a favor and allow you to actually feel your anger. And because we think about emotions, but they live in our body. I suggest that we work on anger through our bodies. So I always suggest, everyone has their own song, but you find a song and you find music that just gets you feeling all the feelings of anger. For me, it's Rage Against The Machine. You put it on and you just let your body move in whatever way it wants to, because your body knows how it needs to release.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
The first time I did this, I had no idea what I was going to do. And the next thing I knew my elbows were moving backwards like this. And every time I do it, I do that. I think it's this feeling of like, get off me. I don't know what it is, but it's just, my body knows what it wants to do. Sometimes I like to pound on the floor. There's all these movements that I want to do, that the music helps me move through. And then when I'm done, I'm done. It really moves through.
Catherine Shanahan:
It's kind of like what I used to do with my son, when he got into his little cranky moods, I had to go up in your room. Sometimes I had to hold the door closed because he was trying to come out and he'd start banging, what have you. And then after a while he settled down because I always said, "Come down when you're feeling better, or you want to talk to mommy differently. That's when you come back downstairs."
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah.
Catherine Shanahan:
I really loved it.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah, because-
Catherine Shanahan:
What's the name of that song? I don't have that many songs.
Karen Chellew:
I don't either.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
So the song that I like is, it's called Killing In The Name Of. It's called Killing In The Name Of, and it just goes like... And I bang my head. It's just the most amazing thing. Not on anything, but in the air. And it's interesting because I have a teenager and I was driving in the car with her the other day and she put on a song she liked.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
And she started doing this thing with her head and I thought, "Yeah, I know, you need to move all of it." And being a teenage girl, it's like the rage is constant. I was like, "Yes, move your head, dance, move, move." Because we really, we need to move this natural fight, flight, or freeze response through our body. So I have a lot more exercises and suggestions for that in the book.
Karen Chellew:
That's fantastic.
Catherine Shanahan:
Maybe we do a podcast of just all this, like...
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah. Well, I have been in groups of women where they will rent out a studio and have lots of different music and people just move their bodies how they need to.
Catherine Shanahan:
Oh fun, that's so fun.
Karen Chellew:
That's amazing. That's amazing.
Catherine Shanahan:
So our next person who's not understanding their 401k, I'm going to say, "Call Dr. Cohen and tell her to play Kill in the-"
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Kill In The Name Of, and take some good punches, exactly. Yes.
Karen Chellew:
Oh, that's great. Oh, that's great.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, this is awesome.
Karen Chellew:
Well, we barely touched on all of the chapters in your book, so this is just a snapshot of all of the-
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Yeah, I'll have to come back.
Karen Chellew:
... nuggets. Absolutely, absolutely. But for now, we're going to go ahead and conclude. Time is nearing. So this does conclude our episode on healing, growing, and thriving beyond divorce. Thank you so much, Dr. Cohen, for being here today. Thank you for the excellent conversation. We're so appreciative. And for all-
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Oh, thanks so much.
Karen Chellew:
Oh, we're just so happy.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Me too.
Karen Chellew:
Not angry, in this moment.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Which would also be okay, we're-
Karen Chellew:
Totally, that's totally great. So for those of you who are listening, this podcast will have already aired by the time your book comes out. So you can get your book on her website, www.drelizabethcohen.com/book. You can order it on Amazon. It will already have been out a month by now. But until then, congratulations to you.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Thank you.
Karen Chellew:
And thank you for the wonderful resources you provide to people who really need you. Thank you.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen:
Thank you and thanks for what you provide to people too. It's such a gift and thanks for having me.
Karen Chellew:
Thank you.
On this episode of We Chat Divorce we welcomed Melissa A. Gragg, CVA, CFE, MAFF, CDFA, and owner of Bridge Valuation Partners. Melissa provides litigation support services and expert witness testimony for marital dissolution, owner disputes, commercial litigation, business interruption claims, personal damage calculations, lost profits, and personal injury. She also conducts business valuations for purposes of estate planning as well as mergers and acquisitions.
Hosts, Karen, and Catherine sit down with Melissa to discuss Business Valuations and Divorce.
Let’s get into it!
Approaching the valuation process and understanding the reasons why. The difference between getting a certified valuation and a non-certified valuation. The space of divorce, the space of mediation, the space of collaborative divorce, and how valuation theory fits within that.
Learn More >> https://www.valuationstlouis.com/about-valuation-experts Find Bridge Valuation on Facebook >> https://www.facebook.com/ValuationStLouis Follow Melissa on Instagram >> https://www.instagram.com/msvaluation/----more---- If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com
The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
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Karen Chellew:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce Podcast. Today, we welcome Melissa Gragg, CVA, MAFF, CDA, and owner of Bridge Valuation Partners. I'll let you, Melissa, describe all of those titles there. Melissa provides business valuation services for litigation and mediation. So welcome, Melissa.
Melissa Gragg:
Thank you.
Karen Chellew:
Thanks for being with us.
Melissa Gragg:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
So let's start off and maybe you do want to give a little bit of your background, but also talk to us about how you got into mediation.
Melissa Gragg:
Sure. Basically, I've been providing business valuation services for divorces and litigation for the past couple of decades, for almost 20 years. Probably about five or seven years ago, I started doing valuations for both parties in litigation, serving as a joint expert. And obviously there's things to do to make sure you protect yourself and communication has to be very open, but it started to solve some of the problems of discovery. It started to solve the problems of getting some of the documents. In that process, since I was working for a lot of attorneys on both sides and being a neutral valuation person in the middle, these same attorneys were also doing collaborative divorce and they were doing mediation for divorce. And so they said would you be willing to do that?
Melissa Gragg:
And I didn't really know, but I also saw even then that eventually people would get tired of going to court and they would want some other options. And so I was like, okay, let's do the mediation training. Let's do the collaborative training. And it kind of just built upon the skills that I already had in doing joint expert work. And then we sort of have, as a society, moved towards less confrontational ways of getting divorced. And so mediation and collaborative divorce are now really prevalent in divorce matters or even child custody or anything, as well as a lot of other areas. But that's traditionally where I focus for mediation.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah, that's great. And I think when you are able to reduce the adversity, it does allow better pathway for negotiation. And with so many people having businesses and pass through businesses and the whole goodwill factor, having someone like you to provide perspective on that can be very invaluable. I've sat in many conversations or conferences with clients and their attorneys where the first thing out of the attorney's mouth is, okay, well, we need to get three business valuations at each one I need a retainer of $30,000 without even knowing the client. So I think it's good that we're going to have this conversation today to break this down and deconstruct the whole perspective of valuing businesses.
Melissa Gragg:
Yeah. And I think that people don't understand that valuations and even litigation process or mediation process, it can be in stages and a lot of times at the first stage, the attorneys or the parties or the clients, they don't even know if they need a valuation. And I think that's where it gets a little bit interesting, is that you can actually work with a valuation person to run preliminary numbers. Like take a look. There's a lot of things that I can see in a tax return, either a personal tax return or a business tax return that tells me whether this is a valuation that is sizeable, right? Because if we're talking about a valuation of millions, then it's going to be very important to go deeper into that to make sure you get to the right number, right?
Melissa Gragg:
The best number that the documents get you to. But the other is, if it's a $10,000 business, why are you paying $30,000 for an expert to come in and say, it's worth $10,000. So a lot of times just coming in and we'll just say, hey, why don't we just take a few hours? Why don't we just look at what you have and then say, yeah, I think there's going to be value here or no, because valuation is also very much tied to compensation for the owner. And then compensation has to do with maintenance or alimony and child support. So they're all intertwined. And so you have to make sure that you're not double counting and that you're not using those things in the same place.
Catherine Shanahan:
Well, that really brings us to the point that is really overlooked. And that is, what is the purpose of getting this valuation? And when you go an attorney as Karen mentioned earlier, and they say, okay, let's get three different ones so we can compare them and we'll spend $30,000 on each or what have you, or when you mentioned that, okay, you might have a company worth $10,000, so why would you spend this, the swirling question here that is overlooked is what's the purpose of this? Are you in this to sell the business? Are you in it to co-own the business together? Are you in this to get your buyout? Do you need income from this business and how do we not double dip like you've said? You can't take an equitable distribution as an income stream. There has to be some kind of balancing between the two. And so a lot of times it's people coming in just scared. One spouse saying you're not getting the business because it's mine. And the other one saying, oh my gosh, what do I need to do? So when we do our recommendations and considerations in our reporting, before we send them over to you for a valuation, it's really important to understand why you want this valuation.
Melissa Gragg:
Yeah. And I think that business owners don't always know all of the documents and the pieces that are needed. Right. I'll get a tax return and it'll be 10 pages long and I'll be like, so I know that this isn't the whole tax return. And I really need the whole thing to look at. I'll get all the business valuation stuff, but there's a pension and the pension is worth more than the business valuation. But basically when a couple comes together, they have all of these assets or they have all of these pieces of property things, right, that they own. And then they have debts or things that they need to pay on those properties. And so a lot of people can come in and say, okay, well, you have a car. The blue book is this. You have a house; the value is this. But in the business, that's always kind of that missing piece in their personal balance sheet that they're like, we don't really know what that is.
Melissa Gragg:
Well, a lot of courts are going to ask to do a business valuation based on fair market value or fair value. Now, these two things may sound a lot alike, but they are not. And then it comes down to the state and how the state is defining that word. Right. And so in the State of Missouri, we're looking at fair market value, but that means a willing buyer and a willing seller. It doesn't mean that you're going to go sell the company. It means that what would the price be if somebody of the street, not strategic, not a competitor, but comes in and purchases this company. Right. What cash flow? I mean, a lot of times it comes down to cash flow. What's the cash flow? Well, if you have a business that all of the cash flow goes to pay the salary of the owner and there's nothing left, then what else is left in that business?
Melissa Gragg:
So it's a lot of those different nuances. But working in the middle, first of all, we'll get access to documents. Either they'll go through your process and everybody is communicating and they're like, yes, let's get all the documents together. Or they will work together and get the documents, but then we're coming together because the valuation has some subjective pieces. And so what we're doing in those subjective areas is making some assumptions. But if we look at the history of the company or we look at the prospective future of the company, those are facts, right? And then we take those facts and then we apply some valuation stuff on top of it. When we do that and we're working for both parties, we're being reasonable and kind of in the middle on those subjective assumptions. We're not saying, okay, here's a low value, here's a high value, let's average it and go in the middle.
Melissa Gragg:
No, we're saying, so each time I go through the valuation, like, hey, we picked this capitalization rate at this level because I see it, the range between here and we went in the middle because we're working for both parties. Right. And quite frankly, that's what I was doing in litigation anyway, but I would have one side or the other would be like, well, can you just make the value be a little bit higher? Can you make the value to be a little bit lower? And in valuation those subjective areas, you can do that, but you have to have a good reason and you have to be able to support it. And if it's just, I decided to do that, everybody else can see it. And if everybody else can see it, you're not really successfully supporting a position. You're hanging yourself out and everybody can see that you've contrived that number. So when we work together, we don't have to do that and we can support it. It's just the same work that I was doing. People come in and they're like, she's going to tell it like it is. She's just going to tell you the truth. And a lot of times I think that's what's missing because people can settle it if they have the right information
Catherine Shanahan:
Tell us the difference between getting a certified valuation and a non-certified valuation?
Melissa Gragg:
Well, I think that traditionally this valuation concept was born from accounting firms, servicing clients, and then starting to realize that there's also like gift and estate tax when you transfer some of your property or a business to the next generation. Right. So they kind of got into that. They started learning about business valuations and you see a ton of CPAs and accountants have a valuation credential, but they would only do maybe one valuation to 10 valuations a year. Okay. So we do 50 to 100 plus valuations in a year. So I think the difference is just the specialization. So you could have a credential, but I think that the next question is, how many valuations do you do a year? How many kinds? You don't typically need a valuation person that knows your industry.
Melissa Gragg:
They don't have to have done a million in your industry. They need to understand the space; the space of divorce, the space of a mediation, the space of collaborative and how valuation theory fits within that. There are certain things in Missouri that you can't do because the law prevents it. So the law trumps the valuation theory. Right. You can go to every state and that's going to be the same issue. And so realistically, if you're doing these traditional evaluations in your CPA, it could still be an actual evaluation, right? They have a credential, but they just don't know what they don't know. And that can get too caught up. We did a recent one that nobody took discounts. There are discounts in the valuation, but nobody took them. They were operating from another state, coming into the state that they were testifying in. They didn't know the case law. And so I think that kind of certified valuation report just needs some credential behind it. But I think that the question is also, do you do these valuations in litigation or in mediation because presenting a valuation and fighting for your position in deposition or trial and then presenting it to two parties in mediation is very different, right?
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely. And to your point, again, I tend to be in the middle of these situations and they'll go to their attorneys. And to your point, the attorneys are vying to get that valuation to support their client. And they know they need it to be really high or really low because they know at the end of the day, the judge is going to chop it in the middle and say this is it for most cases. Now sometimes, obviously there are some advocacy involved there, but to your point, your approach is getting to that end result and neutralizing it right out of the gate. And I think if people understood that sooner than later, they would save. So let's say they each spent $30,000 on their business valuator, they would save $60,000 collectively by just approaching it knowing that that's how it's going to be.
Melissa Gragg:
Right. Absolutely. But I think there's also a benefit here for mediators because I think mediators and even lawyers in the divorce arena, they stay away from complex cases. Right. Financially complex cases are harder. They don't always know the nuances of what's happening. And I think that where we come in, is we partner with mediators and we say, listen, you're going to do all of the other stuff. You're going to mediate the parenting plan and the custody. You could even do the income and expenses and the property statement, whatever you feel comfortable doing, but then we come in and value the harder assets, right? The more complex financial things. Like if you have a complex compensation package that involves warrants or stock, RSUs, restricted stock units, phantom stock, all these things that vest over time.
Melissa Gragg:
Or if you have a pension, but you can't separate the pension, so we need to know what it's worth today. And then you have the business valuation. So those are complex things. In my mind, as a mediator, you can still do all the other things that you had planned on doing, but you can take on more difficult cases that everybody shies away from because we come in and we understand the mediation process. We also understand the litigation process and we can help the parties. If one party is just like, well, I know that this is how you value it because I've been in this business forever, those are hard conversations for somebody that doesn't know valuation to say you're wrong, right? But if they're wrong, we have the capability of saying, well, that's probably not correct information, but here's a third party document, not just my opinion.
Melissa Gragg:
And that's what we've always done in litigation, is support opinions with third party data that, yes, I'm presenting this information, but it's also educating them on why their position is just, well, if the valuation is $400,000, then I get to keep the house. That's usually the thought process, it's like, well, if it's high enough, then I get to keep the assets that I want. Whereas the reality is, if people understand the true picture, right? The true reality of their financial situation, they can make better educated guess... Not guesses, but better educated decisions on what they truly want or need in that environment. And we can facilitate that conversation. Once you get past one business and you now have five different businesses or 10 different businesses, that exponentially becomes more costly in litigation. And sometimes all of them don't need to be valued. So it's a different process.
Karen Chellew:
And what you're saying, Melissa, I get so passionate because that is why we created My Divorce Solution. To capture all of the documentation and neutralize it so that professionals like you and mediators can take that information, that data, the documentation to support it and help these clients, these couples make really good decisions for themselves because that pathway of gathering the information, neutralizing it, helping them understand the components of the data and the documentation, by the time they get to you, they're ready to talk. They're ready to hear an unbiased approach. And the adversity has been so neutralized by that point, they can really have good negotiations.
Catherine Shanahan:
[inaudible 00:17:43] about how one party thinks that they don't have to give this information. And at the end of a year or two, or however long they prolong it, they end up giving the information, but if they only would have known that if they gave the data from the beginning, it would have cost them thousands and thousands of dollars or less. [inaudible 00:18:01] saying, I didn't give this because I didn't have to, or I was told that I didn't have to. And eventually you're going to do it in the least costly way or you're going to do it in an overabundance costly way.
Melissa Gragg:
Absolutely. And I think mediators and attorneys, especially mediators, because when they're mediating a simple divorce, right, they're just getting some simple documents, the most recent statement for the mortgage or something like that. And it's all like they can kind of handle it, right? When you start to get into complex financial situations, you can't just, a client comes in, I want to mediate my divorce, I want to be divorced by the end of the month. It's a longer process. And part of that process is the collection of the data. And if these parties are first getting divorced, they've never been divorced again, they don't know. They don't know, oh, I can get into my bank account and get 12 months of transactions downloaded into Excel. That would be easier for everybody to look at. Well, I didn't know that. Oh, we could work to put all the documents in one location. So a service that kind of assists in that collection of data will make that beginning part faster. So then, yeah, you can get it faster.
Catherine Shanahan:
I'm sorry. Not only faster, but what individuals don't realize is when you start off not doing this process and not working together, it adds more doubt into the non-business owner spouse. So if you prolong the data or you hold back some data, you're only putting fear in the other spouse's mind. And that's what lends to, okay, I need three business evaluations because now I'm scared. He's holding back or she's holding back data, and I'll need to pay three different people to give me three different answers.
Karen Chellew:
Using marital assets.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, exactly. So again, getting together and doing it in the beginning is the best way to get the best use of your money.
Melissa Gragg:
And manipulating numbers always makes people very nervous because you always... Not always, but typically you have one spouse that knows where everything is. They know where all the assets, the bills paid, everything, and you have one spouse that just has been on the sideline. Maybe doesn't even have access to any of the accounts. Maybe doesn't even know where they are or if they exist. And we had a recent one where I was even suspicious of one of the parties. And every single time we got the documents, there was no suspicion. I mean, half the time, even in the business valuation, people will try to tell me what they think I want to hear or what they think, if I tell her this, then she's going to make the value be higher or lower.
Melissa Gragg:
I can see through all of that. They have to understand that I am asking certain questions just to know the position or if it is a difference than what the data is telling me because in my mind, the tax returns and the financials tell a story. But then the story, it's kind of like a book and somebody tore out certain pieces, right? And so I'm looking at the book and it tells most of the story, but then there are certain pages that are like, ooh, that was missing. So what happened here, right? So I'm just looking at completing the financial story and then I'm layering on the business valuation theory on top of it. Now, they sometimes think they know how to manipulate that, but it doesn't matter. It just is trying to get to the truth.
Melissa Gragg:
It's trying to get to that position. And I agree, if everybody has started disclosing information, sometimes they think things are way more powerful or damning than they really are. And sometimes they're even leaving hidden gems of value to just look like there's nothing there. And I think that that's where it gets a little confusing because yes, no one's going to know what they don't know, but what you want to prevent is three years down the line, they come back and sue the attorney or somebody else because, oh, this document wasn't disclosed or, oh, this account wasn't disclosed. And so you're already in a very emotional situation to begin with, the more over communication you can have. And so in that process, I typically over-communicate. And I tell people, ask questions or stop me, but I'm like, I want to make sure everybody in the room understands what the financial story is and has the opportunity to ask questions. And going through that process means you can't position the valuation to be a certain number.
Melissa Gragg:
If something comes to light that's like, oh, we forgot about this piece, it just layers into the valuation, but you still have the same methodology. Right. Now, most of the time in litigation, nobody wants to disclose the methodology because then they're going to come after me, things like that. The reality is there's probably 95% of the valuation, 90% of it, something like that, is theory. And the other 10% is art. And that's where you really have to get defendable third-party data to help you support your position. Right now, we're in a very unique economy. We are looking at a past that we cannot rely upon as an indicator of the future and the future is unknown. And so we sit here at a moment in time trying to explain what the value of something is. And do we ignore last year or do we use it. Do we ignore the past or do we use it? Do we look at the future? So, I mean, realistically, any time that an attorney or a business person or anybody understood valuation; right now, it's completely changed. And so you really need somebody that can come in and take all of those external factors and bring them into the picture and tell people the impact. What does that mean? Yes, I have considered it. What does it mean? And then they can say, okay, I think that makes sense.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. And to all of our point, approaching the valuation process this way, I'm sure it's extraordinarily less expensive. You get a more [crosstalk 00:24:59] approach. So if people knew that if they came to My Divorce Solution, they get their documents, they get them interpreted, they're all collected, they go to their professionals, not only are they managing their divorce in a less stressful way, but financially it's so much more cost-effective. So for people who come to us midway having spent $200,000 already, they all say, I wish we came to you first. I'm sure you hear it all the time as well. So for those out there who are listening and you haven't started, or you're just starting, it's super important to know what you're arguing over or what the disputes are before you start the dispute.
Melissa Gragg:
Well, and a lot of times that more passive spouse that hasn't been aware of the financial situation has to be given a voice. Okay. And they have to be given the permission to ask questions. I'm not trying to be silly about it, but it really is. So I don't really come in and give permission or do any of those things, but I hyper explain everything and I explain it in a very simple way that everybody can understand, but I'm always there to make sure that the spouse that doesn't know what financial is, is content with the answers and understands because what that does is kind of deescalate the emotion when you have the understanding of the facts. Right. Because if all you're thinking is like, this person has said that we have millions and now they're saying that we have nothing, like sometimes that is the truth.
Melissa Gragg:
That is the hard truth, right? And so when I come in, I deal with numbers. I am very empathetic to the emotion and I allow the emotion to happen because it happens and you have to allow it because it needs to get out, but also that understanding of the true picture. Once that sets in, and then they're like, okay, I don't want to hear it from my spouse. Right. I want to hear it from this person. But once I explain it and be like, there isn't hidden money or there is. Once it's explained, then they can start to get out of that hyper emotion that was just confusion, partly and get into, okay, how do we move forward? Now, those people also sometimes need like, you can't stay in the $1 million house. Financially, it's not going to be feasible.
Melissa Gragg:
A lot of these things, the attorneys don't want to say. The mediator doesn't want to say. A lot of people, even in this space, are non-confrontational by nature. I don't mind confrontation. I don't think it has to be confrontation. I think it has to be information. It just has to be what is it telling us and how can I take that information and then make the best decision I've given valuations that are $1.2 million, right? And I say, listen, it is reasonable to be somewhere between $1 million and $1.3 million. So if you guys can figure out a space in there that this works, then you're fine. If you want to give up something and you know that it's worth $20,000, it's going to be your choice. That's the beauty of mediation, is you can choose that that's not that important and it's more important to the other person. And so I'm going to give on that position. Right. But you can't do it, if you don't have all of the pieces of the puzzle.
Catherine Shanahan:
[inaudible 00:28:35] we always believe that if you have financial clarity, then you can make smart decisions. And that's what our mission is. So if you're out there, you have the clarity and you want to give up or negotiate away an asset, that's your right to do, but do it with financial clarity so that you feel confident moving forward in your life because in divorce, knowledge is not only powerful, but it's everything.
Karen Chellew:
It really is. Thank you, Melissa. We have more conversations to have. We only just barely touched on this subject as we know, but I'm really happy that we've crossed paths and you're doing really good work and we're proud to introduce you to our listeners.
Melissa Gragg:
Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much. And your service is just an amazing part of helping kind of maybe the new way of doing things, right? The new way of divorcing. So I think we're all on the cutting edge, right?
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely. Divorce inside out, I call it. All right. Thank you, Melissa.
Melissa Gragg:
Thank you.
On this special bonus episode of We Chat Divorce, we are welcoming not just one but TWO AMAZING guests, Casey Shevin and Sonia Queralt, Co-founders of Divorceify.
Sonia is a divorce litigator, divorce coach, and divorce survivor. She now dedicates her career to helping people going through divorce focus on building their future. She became a programmer and co-founded Divorceify to help people demystify the complexities of the divorce process.
Casey is also a divorce litigator turned divorce mediator turned divorce innovator. Casey earned her bachelor’s degree at Smith College and studied law at Georgetown University, where she was recognized for excellence in clinical fieldwork in family law. Casey is admitted to practice law in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.
So, let’s get to it….
Today we are chatting about Four Early Divorce Mistakes and How to Avoid Them –
Failing to Confront Indecision Failing to Get Organized Choosing the Wrong Divorce Process Hiring the Wrong Help
As companies founded by divorce professionals, My Divorce Solution, and Divorceify have quite a bit in common, beginning with our commitment to the people we serve. This partnership combines an innovative flat-rate financial foundation – The MDS Financial Portrait – with Divorceify’s roadmap that includes a customized action plan, an education, access to reliable resources, and vetted local professionals selected specifically for you. Together, we will make the divorce experience clearer and more manageable.
We are thrilled to partner with Divorceify and support all the amazing work they’re doing to positively impact how people get divorced.
Learn More >>
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
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Transcript:
Karen Chellew:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce, Catherine and I are so excited to introduce you to Sonia and Casey, two of the founding partners of Divorceify. Today we're going to talk about the four early divorce mistakes and how to avoid them. But first, let me introduce you to our guests. Sonia is a divorce litigator, a divorce coach, and a divorce survivor. She now dedicated her career to helping people going through divorce, focus on building their future. She became a programmer and co-founded Divorceify to help people demystify the complexities of the divorce process. Casey is also a divorce litigator, turned divorce mediator, turned divorce innovator. Casey earned her bachelor's degree at Smith College and studied law at Georgetown University, where she was recognized for her excellence in clinical field work and family law. Casey is admitted to practice law in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Thanks for being here, Sonia and Casey were so excited had this conversation with you.
Casey Shevin:
Thank you for having us.
Karen Chellew:
Of course. Casey, do you want to start off by telling us a little bit about Divorceify?
Casey Shevin:
I would love to. So as we just mentioned Karen, I started out my career in family law as a litigator, which mean for those people who are listening and are not totally sure what litigation means, that basically means that you take your divorce to court. So you ask a judge to set a schedule where you're making regular court appearances, and although most people assume that ends in a full-blown trial, 95% of cases actually settle. So most of the time I was helping people try to settle out of court. But with the watchful eye of a judge setting the schedule for every step of the process. What I found in litigation was that that wasn't the best fit for me as a way to serve my clients. And so, I was always trying to get people to settle rather than fight for every penny they could get, because I felt like there was a real value in shortening the duration of the divorce and kind of salvaging whatever co-parenting relationship my client had to their soon to be ex spouse going forward.
Casey Shevin:
So I ended up leaving litigation and forming my own practice in mediation. And around that time, I was looking for other people who were finding themselves unsatisfied with the divorce status quo. And that's when I met Sonia and our third co-founder Tali. All three of us are attorneys and working moms, and we all wanted to find a way to help people avoid some of the earliest divorce mistakes. So what I found in mediation is that people would start in litigation, they'd spend tens of thousands of dollars, they'd have tons of headache. Their stress level would be through the roof, and they would find that they were fighting over things that really either didn't matter to them. They felt like their money was being spent inefficiently, or it was just ratcheting up the conflict level in their household to like an unsustainable point.
Casey Shevin:
And they felt like there was no end in sight for the litigation. So when they found out about mediation they would come to my office, they would have a couple sessions, they would really get down to the root of whatever was left in front of them to decide. And they'd be like, if we had known about mediation earlier, we could have saved ourselves so much time, so much money and so much conflict in our household. So that was a real light bulb moment for me in terms of thinking, wow, people need a place to go for divorce orientation and education. So that they can really get their divorce started on the right foot. And Sonia was at the time... And I'm going to let her speak for herself in a second, but Sonia was actually thinking the same thing. She was seeing it from a different perspective which I'm sure she'll share, but she was out there thinking the same thing, which is that people need a one-stop shop for orientation and education. And that's where Divorceify was really born.
Casey Shevin:
So when you come to Divorceify's site, you do a pretty simple intake as a client. We ask you natural language questions, you answer them, it takes five to 10 minutes. And then at the end, we spit out what we call DivorceGPS, which kind of directs you to what we think are the best process options for you, because there's more than one way to get a divorce agreement. And we also direct you to the types of professional help that can help you get to the finish line efficiently and holistically. And so it's not just attorneys, it's also financial advisors and mental health professionals and parenting coaches and mediators, et cetera. So we're really excited about it. We think it's a great place for people to start their divorce process and really learn about the options out there and really figure out what's the best fit for them.
Karen Chellew:
Love that. Sonia do you want to add... Oh, go ahead, Catherine.
Catherine Shanahan:
Sorry. It is exciting because I want to hear Sonia side first before I say anything more, I guess, but it's exciting for people to have a place to go because there are so many options and a lot of times the only options available to you are the options of your friends and family members who have gone through the process and everyone's financial situation is different. But before we expand on that I didn't mean to interject there Sonia. So tell us a little bit about you and how you jumped into the Divorceify process?
Sonia Q:
Thank you, and that's okay. So I also was a divorce litigator. I litigated divorces in Boston, Massachusetts. I did a lot of high-end, high-conflict divorces, I was in court a ton. And really also in my own personal life my marriage was imploding. So I was able to advocate for my clients, I couldn't advocate for myself. And so, what really solidified that I needed to sort of help people through the divorce process in a different way was I was involved in a three year divorce trial. So two high-end executives spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, liquidated assets, children went into regression behaviors. And basically we ended up having to settle because in Massachusetts there's a mandatory retirement age for judges. So the judge was about to retire and he looked at us after three and said "You guys are either going to have to settle or you're going to have to start over." Well, what ended up happening was we ended up settling with the very first proposal that I had drafted to the other side three years prior.
Sonia Q:
Done, no more, no thank you. So with that my personal life was kind of crazy, and I decided that I needed to walk away from litigation. And part of that was based on what Casey said, that education orientation piece, I kept finding that clients were coming to me and they were making three critical mistakes. Number one, starting off on the wrong process. Why, exactly Karen and Catherine, what you said that they're responding to their divorce and their marriage, how their best friend did their neighbor. Everybody's got a divorce war story, but that's a problem, it's their own, it's not yours. And number two, that clients really don't realize divorce is much more than a legal problem. So if you don't address all of the pieces of your divorce with the right experts and professionals, you're not able to get through the process in the healthiest way possible.
Sonia Q:
Number three, which we're going to talk about is clients really felt disempowered. They didn't realize that during the waiting period there are things you can do to empower yourself and prepare. All of those things together with my own thing going on, I decided to walk away from litigation. I packed up my car with only my belongings, and I left the marital home. Before doing that as a divorce litigator, everybody kind of looked at me and said, "You do this all the time. You know exactly how to do this. It's going to be nice and easy or divorce is simple." And I thought, yikes, it a lot different. [crosstalk 00:08:45] And it became really critical for me to surround myself with the right team of professionals that really understood what I needed, what my non-negotiables were, and to educate me on what I was choosing to walk away from.
Sonia Q:
Only then could I make a well-informed decision? And so my decision became my non-negotiable, my happiness, I was stuck in a miserable marriage for way too many years. And the other thing that I did was I walked away from everything. I left equity on the table. I left a lot of things, but I didn't knowingly and having brought in the right professionals to help me understand what that meant for my future and for next steps. So with all of that Divorceify was born.
Karen Chellew:
I love it. And your third partner Tali, she's also an attorney. Do you want to just give a little bit about her?
Casey Shevin:
Sure. At the time we met Tali, she was working with judges for the court system. So she really saw the burden of over litigated two cases on the court system. Part of the reason litigation moves so slowly is the court system is overwhelmed by the number of people coming to it for help, when realistically a lot of those cases don't need to be in active litigation. It's very common to feel like you need the help of a lawyer. You shouldn't necessarily expect that you're going to understand the legal ins and outs of your case, but hiring a lawyer doesn't mean you're going to go to litigation. So Tali really saw that from the court's perspective of how beneficial it would be to head people off before they really even stepped foot in the courtroom and get them to other alternatives. So Tali actually took some time off from the law to learn to code, and so she's like our tech co-founder. And she's just been really awesome in coordinating all the various tech aspects.
Casey Shevin:
And like really what Divorceify is. It's a multidisciplinary marketplace of services where you can come and we all love a curated shopping experience these days. I don't want to sort through every option on Amazon. I don't want to sort through every option on Netflix, I want them to already know what's the best fit for me. So that's really what Divorceify offers like a tech and innovation enabled way to get your divorce started on the right foot.
Sonia Q:
That makes me think of TJ Maxx. Maxx seems always fine to say deal. But for me, I have to walk in and only see their front circular, whatever you call them through all the whole deals going on there.
Casey Shevin:
[crosstalk 00:11:35] multiples of options. I just want to know like what's in my style, directing me to the things I know I like.
Karen Chellew:
Right.
Catherine Shanahan:
So if you're listening to this, the big takeaway I'm hearing right now is three litigating attorneys ran for the hills. They knew that there was a better way to do this. Then they set out to set up Divorceify a great marketplace for people to find a better way to do it. So I'm really glad that we met you all and that we're partnering to make it even stronger.
Casey Shevin:
Yes.
Catherine Shanahan:
For people gaining financial clarity so that they know where to turn and where to go.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely. So let's talk about some early mistakes people make when entering the divorce process or even thinking the divorce process. So the first one is failing to confront and decision.
Casey Shevin:
Yeah. So Sonia mentioned a few things that like we do focus on Divorceify, but what we think are like the four earliest mistakes that you can make is, like you said, the first one is failing to confront indecision. The second one is failing to get organized. The third one is choosing the wrong divorce process, and the fourth one is hiring the wrong help. So we'll start with the confronting indecision. So you don't wake up one morning and know for sure that you need to get a divorce. It's not like a light bulb moment that happens for most people. Most people it's a gradual thing. You're like, "Is this marriage working? I don't think it is. Is there a way to make it better? Maybe we'll try that. Am I done? What would divorce be like? Is that what I want?"
Casey Shevin:
The period of indecision lasts a really long time for most people. And it's a huge decision to make, so that makes perfect sense. I want to normalize that because that makes perfect sense. That being said, the longer you spend mired in indecision and without doing anything to help yourself get past it, the more likely you are to make a mistake that costs you money. So how can you confront indecision and why does starting your divorce before you've really made a decision cost you money? Sonia and I have both dealt with clients who started their divorce, not really sure that they wanted a divorce, and that costs you money because you're just ping ponging back and forth between, do I want to do this or do I want to stay in my marriage? And you're spending money with attorneys, maybe you're shopping around, maybe you've picked one. And this attorney is like, "Can I send that first letter? And can we put together a financial statement? Like, what are we doing?" And every time they're contacting you to try to prod you along, they're charging you legal fees.
Karen Chellew:
I'm going to add to that, Casey.
Casey Shevin:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Because I just had a situation this week where we had clients who I guess were in indecision. And they didn't realize that once you hire an attorney and once you filed that complaint, and once someone sends over that discovery, all of a sudden you're mandated by court deadlines. I think that a lot of people have no idea about that. They think, okay, I'm going to file, then I can think some more. Well, now, you're in the midst of deadlines that your attorney has no choice, but which to respond to. Or their license is at risk, or you're going to get a sanctions motion against you. So I think to that point a lot of people are unsure, but they don't even know that filing a divorce actually is a commitment. It's not an exploratory decision.
Catherine Shanahan:
Well, you say that people don't just wake up and want to get a divorce the next day. But I know that there's a lot of people out there myself included, who said once my youngest kid graduates from high school, I'm getting out. So there was all those years of waiting, but then the time comes and now you're sitting there thinking, well, do I want to do this or do I not want to do this? And it's because they don't have financial clarity they're afraid to be alone. Or they just don't know what their life will look like after divorce. So when you Karen and I worked really hard on our process of the Financial Portraits, because how do we know what attorney to send them to, or what therapists that they need? If they don't know what their financial situation looks like.
Catherine Shanahan:
So it always amazes me when somebody comes in and they start doing their portrait and they realize that their inheritance is not marital because they never co-mingled it. And they say, "Oh my gosh, I only stayed because my mom would have died if my husband got any of that money. So I just stayed. If I know he's not going to get it, then I'm going." And the other women who say, I'm going to say mostly women, but there's certainly men also that say the same thing. "Wait, the pension is marital, I get half of that. He always told me, I'll never get that, what will I live on?" So it's really transforming when we're working with our clients and they realize that this is a marital asset, this is not a marital asset. And here's what your life will look like after working on their budgeting. Because then they can make the smart decision whether they stay or go.
Karen Chellew:
And Sonia, I think you make the point often that you, while you knew the litigation process, you needed support in the emotional process. And we fully believe that physically, financially and emotionally, all of those areas need to be in alignment for you to make really good, clear decisions for yourself. And some people are going to have strengths in places other people do not. But to your point of having a team and that fund of resources where they're all committed to the same cause, which is you is extraordinarily beneficial.
Sonia Q:
It is, and I think that you just addressed another piece of it. One of the things that... Casey and I are attorneys, our focus was on substantive legal issues. That is where we had our highest value for our clients. So then as a professional in the divorce field, you also have to learn to stay in your lane and respect it. That's what you do. That's what you know, that's a wonderful thing, but then you pull in your colleagues. Then you pull in the other professionals to help that client through, so there's that piece of it. And the other piece is exactly what you said, Karen, most all divorces have the divorce aspect legal issues, whether it's a settlement or you are in the court system or whatever that process is, and the financial piece. Most of them also have a parenting. The finances and the legal process and making it happen are two parts of every divorce.
Sonia Q:
And if you don't have the right information about the types of ways that you can get divorced, and what your Financial Portrait picture looks like now, what it will look like. And if you don't have that information, there's no way that you can make the best decision for your family. So you need the two pieces, which is why Casey and I are so pumped to be partnering up with My Divorce Solution. Because you guys have the financial piece and we are not financial professionals, but we know it's important and clients need it. I needed it. Divorce is much more than a legal problem.
Karen Chellew:
And so is mediation.
Catherine Shanahan:
And what's really great about your process is that yes, you need an attorney we can say, or yes, you have these financial concerns, but when we can vet them... No not vet them, but send them back to you, you can vet out the professionals. So it's really nice bet that we can transition our clients through your process to find the attorney when they need the attorney. Because sometimes in the middle of doing their Financial Portrait, they need an attorney. We're not attorneys, we don't give legal advice, we give financial opinions and financial advice, but to be able to say, go to Divorceify, here's the scenario. And here's the type of professional you need, you've done the hard work for them by vetting out that professional. So that's really so empowering that many people don't have. They just don't know how to find someone for them. Even though they could find the process, they can't find the right professional for them. And you often do that.
Casey Shevin:
What I wanted to point out is that the vast majority of people who come to our website and use our predictive technology to get recommendations, it's like over 75% of them are just thinking about divorce. Of those people many of them know they want to get a divorce, but they don't know how to get started. And then about a third of those people are just not even totally sure they're ready. They're still in this exploratory phase. What Karen mentioned earlier, I just want to go back to that quickly, which is that when you file something with the court to say that, I think I want to get a divorce. Yeah, it's true. You can withdraw that, you can take that off the table. Of course, you've spent money preparing it. You've now notified your spouse, you want to get a divorce? The ball is rolling. So you've started something by doing that.
Casey Shevin:
But it also does give you financial protection, like filing something with the court. So the time you spend before you file anything with the court can be a time in which financial stuff goes down that you learn about later. If you and your spouse are actively talking about divorce, the word divorce is going back and forth all the time, people start doing what attorneys called divorce planning. They start moving money around, they start thinking about what would come after this marriage. And there's many cases that came to our office where we would finally be doing financial discovery, we have started the divorce, we're pulling finances, we're putting together what the marital estate looks like. And we find out that the other spouse pulled $50,000 out of retirement in six months before the divorce was filed.
Casey Shevin:
And you can't get that money back that money's gone now. So you may be can recoup it through a judge. You might not be able to, it depends on the state you're in. And that's a really important thing to think about, like the longer you spend spinning your wheels on, are we going to get a divorce, are we not? Things might be happening that you don't know about. So how can you move past that period of indecision? And like we said, it's not just a legal decision, it's a financial decision, it's an emotional decision. So we have number of professionals in our network that can help you make those decisions. So one way to do it is a type of therapy called discernment counseling. And it's something that you do with your partner. And many people are resistant to couples counseling, especially when they're on the edge of a divorce.
Casey Shevin:
I don't want to be brought into this room and beat up by a counselor, we never tried marital counseling before. Now when we're like, at the very end, we're going to try it like that doesn't make any sense. But the truth is discernment. Counseling is different. It's a goal oriented process with a set number of sessions. And the goal of the process is to decide, are we in or are we out? And once you make that decision together and you're on the same page about whether you want the divorce or not, you can move forward really efficiently and with a lot of honesty and with like a lot of resolution on the emotional piece. You can also just have an initial consultation with an attorney where you're asking them a lot of really important legal questions and like, what would happen if I decided to file, would we have to go to court right away? What could be happening if I choose not to file? What might it look like for my kids, if I got a divorce?
Casey Shevin:
You can get some of those initial questions answered without really committing to that attorney or to filing something. So getting an initial consultation is a great way to move past indecision. And then finally the financial piece, a lot of are just really terrified. They can't afford to get divorced, not just the legal fees, but like what does splitting our assets look like? What does splitting our debts look like? Can we refinance this house? Can we afford it to buy two new houses? Were our kids live? So getting the financial piece together and, or understanding what your finances might look like after divorce is a really important way to move past indecision. And that's something we love about My Divorce Solution is that you guys really help people understand what the various outcomes might look like.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely, to your point a lot of times when you said they're exploring, and they're in indecision, couples want to work it out more than they want to fight. So they're more willing to engage in honest or more honest financial discussions, than they will be willing to engage once they've engaged with attorneys. Because as an attorney, it's your job to protect your client. So by default it becomes a little-
Sonia Q:
I like that honest or more honest. So if you are listening ask yourself will you be honest or more honest?
Karen Chellew:
How much honesty will I get here.
Casey Shevin:
Right. Totally.
Sonia Q:
Love that go ahead.
Karen Chellew:
I thought that you would like that. But what trying to express is as an attorney, it is your job or an attorney's job to protect the client. So in doing so there's some level of adversity created by default. And then I also help people try to understand that even in mediation, mediators, they don't give advice or that's not their role. So I think a lot of people going into mediation saying the mediator is going to help me understand, well, only to a point. Because again, their role is to facilitate conversation. So having the financial clarity of knowing what you have, what's going to look at like what your options are, how much money do I spend a month now and how much money will I have later. Generically speaking, it's such good foundational information to help you make a decision. Do I stay, or do I go?
Casey Shevin:
Yes. And I think that what we're starting to get into is the second mistake that people make, which is failing to get organized. So there is a huge value to getting organized before you hit the starting line of your divorce. So before you're filing something in court or before you're like really starting to pay attorneys, large sums of money every month to start negotiating for you. The most valuable thing you can do for yourself is to prepare, and what does that mean? So part of that is getting emotionally ready and like, Sonia can speak to that probably even better than I can. But I would say that a big part of it is getting your financial documents organized because really divorce is ultimately the dissolution of a business partnership. When you get married, the state gives you certain rights and responsibilities and that's the contract of marriage.
Casey Shevin:
And when you get divorced, the state has to go in and look at what rights and how do those rights and responsibilities get dealt with during the marriage. So what did they accumulate together that they're not both now legally entitled to, and what are their responsibilities to each other now that they're getting divorced? Is somebody expected by the States to support the other person financially, for a period of time to help them get back on their feet as a single person. That's like spousal support. You have children together, there's a lot of financial responsibility there through child support. So before you ask the state to go in and make decisions about your rights and responsibilities, dissolving your finances, splitting things up, you need to really have all your ducks in a row as to what are the assets and debts that we're going to be asking the court to divide.
Casey Shevin:
If you're prepped well for that, then that process that when the court says here's all the different pieces of paperwork you need to produce, or if you're in an out of court divorce process, your attorneys are still going to say, you can't get the court to approve a divorce settlement, unless you have had full financial disclosure. And you're willing to sign a contract that says I have received full financial disclosure, and I'm confident that I understand every asset and debt in this marriage. And I'm confident that it's getting split up in a fair way that I can agree to. My Divorce Solution, financial prep, and the reason we're partnering with you guys to send clients to you is that we really feel like it is the comprehensive preparation that clients need. Right?
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely.
Catherine Shanahan:
Well, before even knowing what you want and what you have, if you're out there and you're thinking, how the hell do I do that? All you need to do is don't overlook an opportunity to gather some information that you may not have access to after it's announced that you want a divorce. So if you're out there and you see a statement, but you have no idea what it is, it's okay, you don't need to know what anything means at this point. If it has numbers on it, you gather it. Don't make the mistake of missing the opportunity to gather some information. Just a couple of weeks ago, I heard someone say, "Oh my gosh, I left the house, and I had my hands on the document and now I don't and he won't give them to me.
Catherine Shanahan:
So make a copy of anything that you have so that we can organize you. We will let you know what's missing. We'll make sure you have the financial clarity when you go through our process, but right now, take the opportunity to gather as much information as you can, whether you understand it or not. It doesn't matter to us.
Karen Chellew:
If it has numbers on it, make a copy.
Casey Shevin:
That's very good advice.
Catherine Shanahan:
Exactly.
Karen Chellew:
Just to elaborate a little bit on that there have been some couples or some people who come through the process and when they get financially organized and clear, they understand that their relationship issues were more financial. And once they had the clarity, they were willing to work on their marriage again. Now that percentage is very small, but it definitely exists. And so, again, making sure what you're doing so that you don't have regrets later. It's just really important.
Catherine Shanahan:
That reminds me of something Karen with a client not too long ago. And it was actually the male. He is getting his Financial Portrait and they're going to therapy at the same time. And he said, "I don't know if I want a divorce or not." And I said to him in his review, "It's great, you're taking care of this because you'll know what it will look like if you stay married or if you stay divorced. But the most important piece to this is you're really giving yourself and your wife, the opportunity for you to emotionally work on your marriage because you already have it settled." So the financial piece is not coming into your therapy session. It's just staying on should we stay connected and together because we really do love each other emotionally not, we don't love each other financially because some people can't overcome that in therapy. And that's why therapy sometimes probably doesn't work.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. Sonia, you were going to say something.
Sonia Q:
Yeah. I think one of the other things not to overlook is preparation saves you time and money. So walking into your attorney's office, well-prepared with the Financial Portrait, with documents that you have captured and sitting down there will save money because the attorneys not having to talk to you for a... Usually it's for several sessions about what documents to start to collect, and we don't have to do that. You're coming in and you're ready. And then we can focus on what we need to focus on. Whether it's a pickle, the right process, looking at all of the options, et cetera, children, custody, whatever that looks like, but it really does save time and money. And I think that's something that at least what I would tell clients all the time is coming to me with a stack of papers and documents and just throwing them down at my desk and being like, "I know there's suspicious behavior here. My spouse is hiding money in an account." It's like speaking Chinese. And this is why, one, I don't know your family.
Karen Chellew:
Two you don't speak Chinese.
Sonia Q:
Yes, I don't. And number one, they don't know your family. Number two, I have no idea the patterns of behavior that your spouse has or does not have when it comes to money, taking out money for a certain ATMs et cetera. I would always say to clients, pull the documents, and when you have a moment of clarity in your mind, because that's also something, the emotional piece is heavy. And some days you can't either look at or think anything divorced and that's okay. But those moments you can sit down look through it, flag things for your attorney. So that when you're sitting down, it's not just this massive pile of just statements. We were looking at hundreds of thousands of pages of statements all the time. You've actually created your story, what you think that is. And really that is powerful because that's also empowering for you as you're getting through it. And every little step of preparation is a drop in the sort of empowerment bucket. So that's a big piece. Get prepared, get organized, it'll save you money and your attorney will love you. [inaudible 00:33:51]
Karen Chellew:
That's so awesome. And you always have the spouse that has the spreadsheet. Usually one or the other has to spreadsheet [inaudible 00:34:01] And they for sure know what it is and it's a no brainer. And I can't think of any time that spreadsheet has really laid out the marital assets and the components of the marital assets and what it's going to mean to divide those marital assets. So while from like a straight line of... That's probably the wrong math word, Catherine, but from just a very linear perspective, the spreadsheet may be a good place to start. But it's only a drop in the bucket to the information that you need to know and understand how it plays into dividing assets, in family law situations.
Casey Shevin:
I mean, look, getting a divorce, like really sucks. It is one of the most stressful things you can go through in your entire life. 85% of the clients who come to our website say that the stress of their divorce is interrupting their day to day functioning. You might be at work, but your head might be somewhere totally different, most days that you're at work because you are so crushed by the stress of what is about to happen to your life. So at Divorceify we're thinking about how do we get people to start their divorce on the right foot and have the best divorce possible. But what we're thinking about is the cost of your divorce, the tone of your divorce and how long it takes to get a divorce. So look, you can have millions of dollars, but do you want to give that money to your divorce attorney? Or do you want to spend it and leave it for your children? Spend it on yourself, leave it for your children. We would so much rather have you do that.
Casey Shevin:
Even if you have the means to litigate your divorce for years and payer your payer attorneys, hundreds of thousands of dollars. But that's not true for most people. Most people don't have that kind of money, and they really are worried about how much their divorce is going to cost. So in either situation, you want to be thinking about how to be efficient. There's no reason to fork all that money over to your divorce attorneys.
Karen Chellew:
Right.
Casey Shevin:
The second thing is the tone of your divorce really sets the tone for your family going forward. Most people who are getting a divorce have kids together, whether or not those kids are adults or young children, you are going to have to be in the same room with your ex at some point in the future. Whether it's a college graduation, a wedding your kid's kindergarten performance at the end of the year, whatever it is, you're probably going to have to be in a room with this person, and you don't want that to be toxic for everybody in your family. So we think about how do we keep the conflict level as low as possible without making you a doormat.
Karen Chellew:
Right.
Casey Shevin:
The other thing is the duration of your divorce. Like it is very common for people to spend six months to a year, debating back and forth, do I even want a divorce? That alone is painful. Once you've decided that you want to get one, you don't want to spend another one to three years getting divorced. You want that to be as short, a duration as possible without it feeling like you're on some like hyper speed stress train. So we really think about how do we keep the cost down? How do we keep the tone controlled? How do we shorten the duration of your divorce? And good preparation will influence all three of those things. And I think part of it is knowing you want a divorce, and that this is the right decision for you. And taking the steps that you can take to get past in decision. Be sure about it when you start it. And then getting really well-organized and prepped and having some vision of what it might look like after divorce, that really will help you go into it in a calmer mindset, spend less money with your professionals.
Casey Shevin:
And some people might think like, well is getting a Financial Portrait really necessary. Isn't that something my attorney's going to help me with anyway? Sure, it might feel like an additional cost at the beginning, but trust me, when I tell you that paying for good financial analysis at the beginning is going to save you money throughout. And you're much likelier to be happy with your settlement at the end of it. So, I mean, I think that that's a huge cost saver and time saver and conflict saver, because also your attorney who your spouse will probably hate is not going to be the one being like, "Well, what we have to do with this asset is X," they're going to already have an analysis that was done by financial professionals. That tax affects everything that shows why this is a great scenario for everybody, that's really what you want.
Karen Chellew:
And so, I think that goes into our next segment of choosing the wrong divorce process. The third early mistake.
Casey Shevin:
Yeah. So we think there are basically four main ways to get divorced, there's a few outliers otherwise, but we've talked about litigation. So using the court to set your schedule and going for a judge the other option is really out of court negotiation. So you hire attorneys and you tell your attorneys before we file something at court, we really want to keep this out of court as much as possible. And you have-
Catherine Shanahan:
Wait a minute, can I stop you there for a second, Sonia? I just can't even imagine going through what you went through. And then the judge tells you "I'm out of here. You need to decide this." So when you mentioned the litigation process, I mean, I never think a judge should decide what the fate of your family is. I just can't get that out of my head, going through all that money, all that time, you being a professional, knowing the process, and then it's out of your hands. And the judge says, "Sorry, see you later." I mean, so if you're listening to this, we all know that litigation, if voidable which it is for 85 or 90% of the cases avoid it, that must've been so traumatic that process.
Sonia Q:
And I think the other piece is, speaking of the emotional piece, if you want to punish your spouse, you for sure need to get in touch with a mental health professional because using the court system to punish your spouse is the biggest mistake that you can make for your family, for your finances and for your children. And so, I'm going to say it again, if you're thinking that way now is the time to start doing your homework on a mental health professional that you can afford that you enjoy talking to because you need to talk yourself out of that.
Catherine Shanahan:
That's great a great point. That's another way of doing that.
Karen Chellew:
It's a great way to punish yourself.
Sonia Q:
Exactly, and at the end of the day, what Casey was saying is that if you're going to do that through the court system, you're setting the stage for an adversarial hostile co-parenting relationship, which by the way is for life, so good luck. It is absolutely unnecessary. And I can very much understand those moments of absolute rage because your spouse is pushing the right buttons because you've been married, they know which buttons to push, to get the best reaction out of you. I understand, take a breath, whatever you need to do, but do not use the court system to punish the other spouse.
Karen Chellew:
Right.
Casey Shevin:
The other thing to think about with courts is judges are there to protect people when they need to be protected. So if there's abuse in your marriage, whether it's financial abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, that's a great case to take to litigation because the court will see through that bullshit, and they will do what they have to do to protect you and your family. But that being said, because the court is really designed for those cases. And really those are the pieces that the judge and their staff want to focus on. If you're arguing over accounts and who gets this account and who gets that account and who gets this vacation house and who gets that vacation house and who gets this collection of collectibles versus that collection of collectibles. The judge's not super excited about your case and being the ones who decide what they think to rational people with the help of attorneys should be able to decide on their own.
Casey Shevin:
And so, we have seen that number of cases that get all the way up to the line where they have two or three assets or two or three maybe items or debt that they can't figure out, who's going to be responsible for. Who's going to take. And there's like maybe a difference of some amount of money between what this side will accept and what that side will accept. We have seen a number of times where the judges called their attorneys back into their back room, and they're like, "Look, this is probably what I'm going to decide. So you need to just go out there and save the court's time and tell your clients that because you don't want to have a three-day trial on this. And when we could be helping families that like really need our help."
Casey Shevin:
That's very disheartening as an attorney too, is like, you've been fighting for your client for however many months or years. They've paid you thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for their day in court. And then the judge is like, "Yeah, I'm just going to save you guys a lot of time and tell you that this is what's probably going to happen. So go settle this." And then hour later, your attorneys have hand written a settlement and sent it back to the judge to approve.
Sonia Q:
[crosstalk 00:43:36] That's a whole other podcast that I love, but let's go on to the other way, even getting divorced because that's a great topic, I could go on a whole day [crosstalk 00:43:50]
Casey Shevin:
That litigation is to be avoided if you can. And the next way to get divorced is, you both hire attorneys or financial advisors and whomever else you want, but you tell these professionals, we want to settle out of court and you let them do the heavy lifting on going back and forth and trading proposals, but really like their job is to settle it out of court. The third way is mediation, and usually that's the two of you, you and your spouse, and a neutral third party in a room that person might be an attorney, they might be a mental health professional, they might have a financial background, but their job is not to decide what's going to happen there. They're helping the two of you reach a decision by providing information along the way and helping you guys reach, a compromise.
Casey Shevin:
And then the fourth way is like a do it yourself process. And there's a few different ways to do a do it yourself process, but there are some companies that are now offering online divorces, where they have the forms available, you and your spouse just really fill in what you want the court to do. That's becoming more popular. And it's understandable why like the cost is a lot lower, the timeframe can be much shorter. And it's empowering to do something on your own. That being said, there's a very narrow window of families where they get the outcome that feels fair at the end of that process. And part of that is like divorce is really complex. It's a complex legal problem, it's a complex financial problem, it's a complex emotional problem. The idea that you could do it all on your own, probably not fair to most people.
Casey Shevin:
So what we say is that's like a good fit for divorces where the conflict is very low, there aren't any children, you haven't been married that long, and you really don't have that much to divide between you. Sometimes attorneys call those divorces like a walk away. You're both just walk away what's within your name, you split down the middle of whatever's in your joint names. And there are young couples that are totally willing to do that. And if you're one of those, then do it yourself process might be right for you. Otherwise, you probably are going to need some help.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah.
Catherine Shanahan:
So in any of these processes, Divorceify I can help direct the client to the right process and the right professional, correct?
Casey Shevin:
Exactly.
Sonia Q:
And what Divorceify also does is it also highlights the pros and cons to each process because there's also the collaborative process. And there's been a big collaborative movement. And the reality is that many clients do not know that in the collaborative movement, there are several professionals that sit down at a table for a certain set of sessions to get you to a settlement. However, you do sign a contract in the beginning that if you do not settle the case, or both parties come to an agreement you're starting again, so-
Karen Chellew:
New professionals.
Sonia Q:
Correct. So in order to pick the right process you also need to understand what does this process entail? What makes sense, what doesn't. And what the pros and cons to each are. And so Divorceify does that in our DivorceGPS, you will not just get the recommendation, but you will also understand the other ways to get divorced and the pros and cons to each. Because there's a little FYI. So you might think, oh, things are bad right now. We just have to litigate. We can't communicate, I don't trust him or her et cetera. And you think, all right, this is the only way, well, next week when the temperature's been turned down a little bit, you never know, and perhaps then the lines of communication open. So wait a second. Suddenly mediation can be on the table. There's other options. So things can change, but you need know what each decision entails.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. I liked my little tour through Divorceify, I did the test tour. And I really appreciated the fact that it did a great job of explaining the different types of how you can approach the divorce process, but specific to whatever scenario, I set my situation out to be, it told me the pros and cons of because you have this, or you have these assets, you're going to need this. And because of this, you're a candidate for this, but you could consider this, but it may or may not work for you. And I found that to be very helpful and I can see how that could be extremely helpful for someone to have all of these considerations as it relates to their divorce journey. It was good.
Casey Shevin:
Yeah. And, I think that there's ways to overdo it, like to go to litigation when you don't really need litigation, but there's also ways to under do it. So doing a DIY divorce and then getting your settlements approved by the court and then finding out years later that you could have been entitled to more money. That's one of the ways people really underdo it. Another way is like I just want this to be over. I just want this to be better for my kids. I'll do whatever it takes to get to the finish line because I'm so stressed out by this. So I'll do mediation because that's what my spouse wants to do. So I'm just going to do it. And then you get in the mediation room and your spouse's like steamrolling you. And you're like, well whatever, like, it's fine.
Casey Shevin:
Sonia is somebody who has said, like I left money on the table and I walked away and that was the right choice for her. But it was a totally informed decision that she made. And I think the key is just make sure you're confident in the process that you're using. Make sure you're confident that you're getting all the information that you understand, the decisions being reached. And that you feel confident, you understand how it will affect your financial future, because you can do mediation, you can reach agreements on almost everything and then have some things that you don't agree to, that you then take to attorneys to resolve. You can do a hybrid model between different processes, you don't have to just choose one and stick with it.
Casey Shevin:
And it's really important if you feel like you're in the middle of mediation or in the middle of litigation or trying to do DIY and you're muddling through, and you're just not confident. Like you can go back to us, use our predictive technology and get a new recommendation, or just look back at the options that we recommended in the beginning. And think maybe I could default to a different process and end it in a better way.
Karen Chellew:
I so agree. And I do not want to close out this podcast without addressing the concierge service, which I believe is kind of the glue that holds your divorce together, going through the Divorceify process. So Sonia, do you want to talk a little bit about that as we close out you?
Sonia Q:
So I think that people going through divorce, you need somebody in your corner. You need somebody to be able to meet you wherever you are in the process, whatever that day holds for you. There were days I couldn't get up and shower and that was all right, just let yourself be. So in order to really help people wherever they are in the process or in the beginning stages, we have a concierge service. What do we do? Well, it depends on what you need. So it's very easy, you get to talk right now, the concierge service is myself and Casey. You get to talk to one of us, you get to tell us, or you get referred by your team of professionals that feel that you need a little extra, either hand-holding support orientation, strategy sessions.
Sonia Q:
So what we really do is you would come in, you would talk to Casey or myself for 30 minutes. We would get an idea of what your situation is, what you need. And then we put the steps in place to get you there. Whether it means more education, whether it's helping to get prepared, whether it's starting to have conversations that you need to have with professionals, let's say a parenting coordinator, and you're thinking, I don't even know where to start with the parenting plan we'll help you. If you need to be connected to the right professionals, we'll help you. If you need a venting session, because things are heavy and you have nowhere else to turn, we're listening. So whatever that person needs, we help them get there. And we give homework. Not tough homework, we're not bringing you back to school.
Catherine Shanahan:
I just wanted to say you lost me at homework.
Sonia Q:
I know. Listen we all need a little bit of homework [inaudible 00:52:36] therapist on the phone. That's what it is, a little bit of possibility that you can really count on. And Casey and I offer a level of experience that not many other services provide, because we've been there. We're attorneys, we get it, we've seen it, I had felt it. So our goal is to really get that person through the concierge service to their next step. In the easiest, most efficient way possible for them.
Karen Chellew:
I love it.
Casey Shevin:
Our partnership with My Divorce Solution, the way that that kind of works is you might be a client of My Divorce Solution already. And then you get your Financial Portrait and your to do's and it's like, oh great, now I know where I'm at, but I have all these to do's to do. And now I have to figure out how I'm going to get divorced and who I'm going to hire to help me with that. That's a point at which you might be referred to our service by Karen and Catherine, and we can help pick up where they left off. Another way that you might find our partnership working together is you might through a process. Do DivorceGPS, get our predictions, and then get an email from us where we are kind of nudging you to go get a Financial Portrait done, because we think that that's a really important step in the preparation process.
Casey Shevin:
And so you might start with MDS and come to us, or you might start with us and then go to be referred to MDS and just know that like we are working in partnership with them to really get clients prepared as best they can. And then our concierge service can really layer on top of the Financial Portrait to really help you get in the right hands to take you to the finish line. So hiring the right help whether it's a therapist, a parenting expert, a attorney, a mediator, or whatever you decide is the process that you want to be using. And we can help you make that decision as well, we'll help you get the right help to get you to the finish line.
Casey Shevin:
And when you're hiring an attorney, it's not just where they went to school, how many years they've been in practice and how much they cost that matters. It's also, are you comfortable talking to this person? Do you feel like they understand your goals? Are they really going to support your process the best you can? So we think about personality fit as well, not just like the credentials on paper, and that's a way that we can be helpful is help you really think through holistically, who do you need to be working with? So at that point, we've got our concierge can really be helpful.
Sonia Q:
I just wish I go through my divorce again, to have a concierge service.
Karen Chellew:
I know. [inaudible 00:55:16] Go ahead
Sonia Q:
Really quickly for anyone listening, because I don't know if we've made this clear. To use the divorce certified DivorceGPS it is free.
Karen Chellew:
Totally free.
Sonia Q:
Absolutely free. You can come back like Casey was talking about. If things have changed in your process or things have changed in general. You can come back and do another one and it's still free, 15 more and they're all free. Everything always has strings attached. There are no strings attached here. So just come in and just walk away with something that is completely free and gives you a starting point that you can trust.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. So if you're hearing anything and you're sitting at home and you feel like you have no place to go and no one to talk to, you don't have to make the decision to get divorced today. You don't have to decide what's going to happen for your rest of your life, but you can go on to Divorceify's website and get a free GPS or some options and that are available to you. So don't sit there and be sad because that really makes me sad, do something for yourself. And if it's just getting information, then good for you get that information that you need.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely. And so on that note, while we could continue talking for hours, I'm sure. This concludes this episode of the four early mistakes and how to avoid them in the divorce process. Thank you Sonia and Casey for a great conversation, and we look forward to the next one.
Casey Shevin:
Thank you. And for your listeners, thank you for joining and we wish you the best next chapter possible.
Sonia Q:
That's right.
In this month’s episode, we are welcoming Michelle Dempsey to the We Chat Divorce Podcast to talk about Overcoming the “Divorce is Death” Mindset.
Michelle Dempsey is a Certified Divorce Specialist, writer, mom, coach, and speaker. Michelle fully believes in the empowerment of having someone by your side to help you through the uncomfortable process of divorce. Her work has been featured in publications including Forbes, Scary Mommy, Parents, Daily Business Review, HuffPost, Elite Daily, and more. She is also the host of the Moms Moving On podcast. Michelle works with women at all stages of divorce.
Listen in as Catherine, Karen, and Michelle get together to chat about –
Getting over the divorce stigma – “Did you even try to work it out?”, “I’m so sorry about your divorce!”, “You couldn’t wait until your children were older?” … Sound familiar? Playing victim and the effects of divorce on your children The grieving stages of divorce
And a few laughs along the way!
Catherine always says “Divorce is only a part of your story. It is not your entire story.” Remember, it's just a chapter, just a little piece of it.
Whether you are just thinking about divorce, taking your first steps in the divorce process, or moving beyond divorce, this episode has something for you!
Get in touch with Michelle - info@momsmovingon.com
Instagram: @themichelledempsey
Become a Member: https://momsmovingon.com/become-a-member/
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.----more----
Karen Chellew:
Welcome Michelle. Welcome to We Chat Divorce. We're so happy you're here today to talk with us about overcoming the divorce is death mindset.
Michelle Dempsey:
I love to be here to talk about just that. That's one of my favorite things to talk about.
Catherine Shanahan:
Why is that one of your favorite things to talk about?
Michelle Dempsey:
I think from early on in my split, I think, the way I was approached by people in regards to my divorce was so mournful and like I should have been dressed in black and crying in a corner and it always amazed me how non divorce people would say, "Oh, I'm so sorry for your divorce. So terrible. Oh, you couldn't wait until Bella was older. Oh, you didn't want to work it out." Things like that. And the whole, of course, "Oh God, I'm so sorry, because divorce is such a death." And then all the divorced people I knew were like, "Congratulations." And so I think for people who had never experienced it before, granted, I hadn't personally, but my mom had, and I watched her go through it as a child.
Michelle Dempsey:
I think the notion of divorce to some people is so terrible and so awful. And they compare it to a death because yes, it's essentially the ending of a relationship, but you're still very much alive. And so is your ex and you still have to co-parent with this person. So what death? The relationship is still there. It's just there in a different way. And I feel like putting divorce into that negative box eliminates the opportunity for you to see it as a rebirth or an opportunity to start fresh or write a new chapter or reestablish what your relationship might look like with your ex now, as you move forward as co-parents. So I am not into the whole divorce is death mentality.
Catherine Shanahan:
I totally believe that I feel the same exact way. I know others do not. However I remember people saying to me, "Oh, I'm so sorry.: And I thought, "Really, because if you knew what it was living like, you wouldn't be so sorry."
Michelle Dempsey:
Exactly.
Catherine Shanahan:
And then those same people, some of them today are divorced. So were they sorry that I was going through it and they weren't able to go through it at the time? So it really always made me feel uncomfortable.
Michelle Dempsey:
Right. And here's what I've noticed, Catherine, the people who were most critical, were not trying to be critical, but had the most to say about my divorce had the most questions or, and "You didn't want to work it out?" And "You didn't want to stay longer for the kids?" What I've come to realize is that those were projections from their own emotions. And what came to be their splits like you said. They were questioning me because they wanted to hear from me like, "No, don't get divorced. Yes. I could have stuck it out. Yes, we could've stayed together for the kid," but that wasn't the case. And it's just ironic to see the people who had the most opinions are now ... Or the ones who disappeared. I call them the flockers and the fleers, like you have the flockers and the fleers, and I just wrote about this in my book.
Michelle Dempsey:
You have two sets of people in your divorce, the people who jump on you for all the details and make comments and criticism and want to know everything and the people who flee. And very often, you're going to find both of those, people in both of those categories that ends up in the same situation as you.
Catherine Shanahan:
Oh, I totally agree with that as well. You said something, I have plenty of blockers and fleers. That's great. I love those terms. But the other question was always from my married friends who I thought were friends said, "Aren't you afraid you're go to be alone." You're going to be alone forever."
Michelle Dempsey:
That's projection [crosstalk 00:03:58] because they might. They might not be okay with the concept of being alone, but alone and lonely are two very different things in my opinion and I talk about that all the time. Alone can be a beautiful thing. Alone can be an afternoon to yourself where everybody's leaving you alone and you can just watch your TV, read your book, eat your snacks.
Michelle Dempsey:
Lonely though, is when you don't find the beauty in being alone. And that's fearful for some women because society tells you, you have to have a partner, you have to have a teammate. You have to have somebody to carry you to the finish line. But honestly you really don't. And it was once I dropped that mindset of, "Oh God, I need somebody," that I did find the perfect partner, which was ironic. So getting comfortable with that aloneness is a foreign concept for a lot of people because society will tell you it's bad. But in hindsight it was the best thing for me to be alone.
Karen Chellew:
And some of those fleers, I know from my experience, for some reason, they thought I was, or divorce was contagious.
Michelle Dempsey:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
My friends who were married, "Oh, I don't know. He doesn't want you to come over or we have to meet not at my house anymore," because I truly think that their spouse especially, thought it was something contagious. But even more than that, when people have that divorce is death mindset, think of how that transfers to the children. If you have that, or you allow that energy into your home or into your relationships, they're carrying that then that, "Oh, my mom or my dad did a terrible thing or did something that's not good for the family." And then what do they do with that emotion?
Michelle Dempsey:
It creates such inner turmoil for children. And I've seen it with some of my clients and even people I know personally who can't get out of that victim mindset, "Well, Daddy left me and it's so hard." Kids shouldn't be shielded from everything, but to make them all of a sudden, have to feel okay, "Well, I love my Daddy, but I know he hurt my Mommy. So should I love my Daddy? Is he a bad guy? He's half of me. I don't want to be a bad person." Right away that creates an anxiety and a inner battle in a child that they shouldn't have to be fighting. So I'm a big fan of cry if you need to cry, mourn if you need to mourn, whatever you need to do to get the feelings out so that you can move on, do it, but don't make your children a part of that. Children benefit from seeing you alone if alone is where you can be resilient. And I think a lot of people are worried that the lack of a spouse is really going to impact the child so negatively when research shows that all children need to thrive is one stable parent or caregiver.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely.
Catherine Shanahan:
That's correct. Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
The consistency, and even moving forward through life, we all have to make critical decisions about a whole host of relationships. And so will our children. And when they see examples of us making good decisions for the betterment of the entirety of the family, and it enables them to make good decisions for themselves as well.
Michelle Dempsey:
Right.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. It always baffles me when we have a client come in and say, "Well, my children told me that I shouldn't take this these dollars. I shouldn't ask for this money from their dad." Or their dad tells me that mommy's taking all of my money, that now we're broke. I'm broke. I can't do this. So even involving your children in any kind of financial discussions is inappropriate. I mean, our kids, their burden is not our problems, right? They're not-
Michelle Dempsey:
I remember being a kid and the money, literally, whenever my dad did give it, which was few and far between would go through me. I'd get out of the car, he'd drop me off. He'd hand me a check to give to my mom. And then sometimes I'd come in without the check. And my mom would be like, "Did he give you the check?" And so I always knew that like he owed her money. It was a very awkward position to be in. And of course, I don't think they put me in it to be hurtful, but they just didn't know better. And it just sticks with you.
Catherine Shanahan:
My mom was telling a story just recently, how she had to get on the subway at two or three times a week to go to her dad, to ask for the money for my grandmother. And I'm like, "That is just so awful to do that," but that's what we do. And the lesson of being lonely and alone, it's such a good lesson to teach our children too at such young ages, because I could remember saying, "I am in such a lonely marriage. I'd rather be single and lonely than married and lonely." But then when I became single and I would just sit in, because I did have a lot of friends who stayed with me that would check on me and invite me out with their spouses and so forth, and I said, "I am so good being home. I want to watch a movie all by myself. My son's out, my daughter's at school."
Catherine Shanahan:
I enjoyed that time with being alone. And it didn't mean I was lonely. And I kept saying just because I'm alone, doesn't mean I'm lonely. And it's good for our kids to learn that now, too, just dealing with the pandemic alone. You realize how much alone time we all have. You said it earlier, which I love is just enjoying that, loving that time you have for yourself.
Michelle Dempsey:
Yeah. I read something recently and I've done a lot of work in around trauma and resilience because I did a lot of work to heal from my own traumas. And I have found the most resilient people are the people who have been able to take the lessons from their past and move forward. But something I came across was how keeping yourself busy all the time and the inability to sit alone with yourself is a trauma-based response. And it's really just avoiding what's going on inside of you. You are so uncomfortable with so much, and maybe you're harboring so much in your subconscious that doesn't even come to light every day. That's where alone feels so uncomfortable. And I used to be that person. My mom always would say, "My God, you can't just sit still. You can't just have a night alone." Back before I even married my first husband, I was always on the go, always had a plan. If I didn't have a plan, I had to make one. It was because I was too uncomfortable with all of my undealt with stuff, that I distracted from it by staying busy. And that's not the way to go about things. Sure, once in a while, you want to get out and take your mind off things, of course, but making that a constant instead of making the time for yourself a constant, it's completely unhealthy.
Catherine Shanahan:
So what are three steps somebody could take to shift their mindset from feeling like their divorce is death, to making it more as a new beginning.
Michelle Dempsey:
I think the first step always is to grieve your pain, right? So I'm never going to say, "Oh, your marriage is over. Get over it. Be happy." No. You have to acknowledge that that sucks. Divorce sucks. Nobody wants to go through it. It's hurtful. It's painful. It's the dismantling of a whole life connections, friendships plans. It's a lot to process. So it's hard. And you have to give yourself time to process it because you're not going to be able to see the other side as an opportunity until you can release all the feelings, feel the feels as I like to say. So I truly think that's step one. And I see so many women that I work with because I help them through the transition want to go from zero to 60 like, "okay, it's over, I'm fine. I'm going out with friends. I'm good."
Michelle Dempsey:
And I'm like, "Call me in two weeks when you can't get out of bed in the morning," because the more you try to ignore it and the more you try to be okay, the harder it's going to be and the harder it'll come back to bite you. So grieve. Be alone. Feel shitty. Cry watching ... I used to lay in bed after my split and watch The Affair. That was the show that like I'd binge watched first. And it was just such a poignant time in my life because it was like, I was feeling things through this show. It was so well-written, I loved it, but also tapping into my own unhappiness and just, I don't know, I was icky for a while, but that icky place they say you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable, that's really where I think you need to be in the beginning stage of a marriage, let it happen. Let yourself feel shitty. Don't try to avoid it. And then you move forward.
Michelle Dempsey:
And the second thing I think would be to really harness the idea, get it in your head and repeat it to yourself daily, that now you have a new opportunity, whether you wanted to be in this situation or not see this new stage in your life, new marital status as an opportunity. Marriage is unfortunately for so many women, their whole lives when in reality, it's just a small part of our lives. And if you come out of a marriage after 20 years and you're like, "I don't even know who I am anymore" it's because you've made that marriage your whole life. Now you can make your life your own. And maybe marriage fits into it later on down the road, you find somebody who fits your life. But this is the opportunity that you have to give yourself that not everybody gets. And so I think that's a really special thing.
Catherine Shanahan:
[crosstalk 00:13:40] Every day in Hilton Head and I would ride my bike there every single day, since my daughter went to school, when I was here and I would just look into the ocean. And when I, even now to this day, when I look into the ocean, I think endless possibilities because as I was crying, not knowing what I would do next, I just thought there are so many endless opportunities out there for me and I'm going to seize them. And that's what got me through it. Just knowing that and then hence here, here we have My Divorce Solution, so who knew at 44, I become an entrepreneur. And it's funny now because this was my first Thanksgiving where I ordered a pre-made turkey. I was that mom that cooked all the meals and did all the stuff. This year my daughter was like, "Mom, why would you ever cook a turkey? This was fabulous."
Michelle Dempsey:
That's so funny.
Catherine Shanahan:
[crosstalk 00:14:28] the day and eat in the afternoon.
Michelle Dempsey:
Right. There's certain pressures that we put on ourselves I think in marriage that are now lifted. I remember always wanting to look perfect when my husband got home from work. And even if it got ignored, I just put that kind of pressure on myself or whatever it was. And I really took comfort in just being. Like bra off, hair up, nobody at home to criticize or why are there dishes in the sink, putting on whatever music I wanted to put on. That was really powerful for me. The sense of this is my life now, and I'm going to do it my way.
Michelle Dempsey:
And then the third thing I always say to shift the mindset, you really have to acknowledge the feelings again, but do it through a form of ... For me, it's always been journaling. None of my clients get away without having to journal. Right now, we're doing actually a 30 day journaling challenge because answering certain questions, putting it out on paper really helps you to physically, like it's science, physically take something and release it. When you write something down, it's when you make a to-do list. Now you're not forgetting because you have a to do list. So if you take your journal and you write about the things you hope to bring into your life in the next couple of years, or write about the changes you need to make personally or how you can be healthier, what you can do to feel happier. Putting that out there sort of holds you accountable and helps shift you into a mindset of looking ahead, instead of just like, "Eh, what now?" So [crosstalk 00:16:07] those are my three things.
Catherine Shanahan:
I'm a huge journaler. I do tons of journals and it's something about it happens if you write it down. It's a path to get there.
Michelle Dempsey:
Yes. I'm not a woo woo spiritual person, but I do totally believe the universe helping you manifest what you deserve and if you put it out there ... I always knew it, even in my first marriage as it was imploding, that my perfect man was out there. I didn't care when it was going to happen. I was very happy to be alone after my split, but I kind of always knew I'd be getting married again. And I really, in my head knew what he would look like. I just knew all of these things and it came to fruition because I would write about it.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. Same here.
Michelle Dempsey:
I did something. I did something completely out of character a couple of months before my marriage ended. And I was just writing about it for the book and I was like laughing at myself. So I had a girl that worked for me and she's like, "You need to go see an energy healer." And I was like, "Huh? Come on. I'll go to the spa. I'll get a massage. I'll get a manicure, pedicure. I don't know about an energy healer." And she's like, "I'm telling you, you need to go see this woman." So when you're down and out, you'll do anything to try and feel good. And that's how I felt at the end, towards the end of my marriage. So I remember getting in the car, I drove like an hour and a half to this stranger's house in the middle of, I don't know, it was another county far from Miami.
Michelle Dempsey:
And I knock on her door. And the whole time I'm thinking like, "What the fuck am I doing?" "What am I doing? What am I doing?" And she opens the door and she was everything you'd imagine her to be, she was wearing scarves and a long duster. And she had a thing in her hair, just this character of her personality. She was beautiful and warm. And she smelled like patchouli and so did her house, had like different colors on every wall. And she brought me into her little studio and she laid me down, did all this Reiki and sound healing and all sorts of things. But at the end of it, she said, "I'm going to leave the room. I'm going to give you a piece of paper and a marker. I want you to write a note to yourself for what, where you see yourself five years from now."
Michelle Dempsey:
And so I wrote this note and she said, "I want you to stick it on your bathroom mirror." And I did. And I kept it there until I moved in with my now husband. And it was literally, it was like, "You will be a published author. You will have the man of your dreams. You will have clients who rely on you for their help, for help." And I remember putting it on my bathroom mirror, like, "Oh my God, I hope my friends don't see this." And it was amazing to me how all of those things that I told myself I deserved came to fruition.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. I believe that.
Karen Chellew:
Fabulous story. I love that, Michelle.
Michelle Dempsey:
Thank you.
Karen Chellew:
I've worked with a lot of the clients and their budgeting post divorce and moving on. And I say that budgeting is a form of journaling. It's recording what the it is and-
Michelle Dempsey:
That's a really good point.
Karen Chellew:
... how you're going to be CEO as you're moving ahead and you get to choose how you spend or save or otherwise every single penny. So I've just made that connection in our discussion here. But I truly believe that budgeting is a form of journaling. I think that's [crosstalk 00:19:25]
Michelle Dempsey:
It totally is. It's setting an intention. And then you tend to hold yourself to it. That's why I'm doing this challenge with my Mom's Moving On community members, because when you set the intention to do something and each journal prompt every day is intentional, it totally helps you shift. It helps you think way outside where your brain tends to get stuck. So I love that.
Karen Chellew:
Right. And there's no reason to get stuck.
Catherine Shanahan:
It's like an accountability for yourself.
Michelle Dempsey:
Listen, I really have reached a point in my life where I have no patience for people who don't take accountability for their actions like ex-husbands and say you're wrong when you're wrong. Say you dropped the ball when you drop the ball. Hold yourself accountable. It's so important to be a better person that way. So good for your kids to see that. [crosstalk 00:20:19] Can I tell you another story about the energy healer real quick?
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Sure.
Michelle Dempsey:
Now that I'm thinking about it. So I saw her, we wrote the bathroom mirror note. I was in shock for days after we met over the fact that I even went and did this, I spent like $300. I didn't know what kind of a waste of money it was. And then fast forward a couple of months, I got separated and I move into this new space with my daughter and I loved it. I loved my apartment. It was a townhouse. We set it up like girl power and it was everything I wanted to buy from Home Goods. I didn't have to answer to everybody. It was a mishmash of stuff. And somebody, my employee was like, "You should call Lillian to come and sage your new space."
Michelle Dempsey:
And I was like, "I could burn a freaking leaf in my kitchen. I don't need Lillian here." And then I was like, "What the hell? I liked her last time." So I call her to come over and she's walking around and she's burning sage. And she gets to my kitchen and she's like, "Oh my God. Oh my God, you have to get rid of that." And I was like, "What?" She was like, "Your knife set. It's in your heart. It's in your heart chakra corner. It's in the corner of your ... This is the relationship corner of your house. There's knives there." And I'm like, "I didn't know. My house didn't come with a map." So she made me move the knives. So she told me where to put them.
Michelle Dempsey:
Then she goes up to my bedroom and I had a painting on my wall that was very like strong womanesque. Okay. It was like a beautiful black woman lounge singer from the '30s or '40s singing into a microphone. It looked like she was screaming and I loved it. It was so strong. She's like, "You got to take it off your wall. Take it off. I'm going to leave the room, take it off the wall and I'll come back in." And I was like, "All right," needless to say, I'm like, "What did I just, what just happened here?" Three days later I met Spencer, my now husband. And I'm like, "I'm going to give that to Lillian. That was all Lillian."
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. She took away ... She made you a little bit more vulnerable.
Michelle Dempsey:
It was so funny how she freaked out about the knives. I'll never forget it.
Karen Chellew:
Wow. Yeah. What an impact she had. That was a great investment.
Michelle Dempsey:
I can't find her now. She's not on Facebook anymore because I've wanted to recommend her to people, even though I still think maybe it's, I don't know if it's real, but just the experience was so cool.
Catherine Shanahan:
I always think that there's signs out there and you either choose to take them or we don't. And so whether, you could have said, "Hell, I'm not doing that," or when she left the house, you could have put the picture back up on the wall.
Michelle Dempsey:
I never put it back up. My husband ... I still have it. It's in my garage. For some reason I can't get rid of it. And I'm really good at throwing things away, but it sat in my garage, in my townhouse. I never put it back up. Then it came with us to this house and he's like, "Can we throw it away now or give it away?" And I'm like, "No, I want it there. It's a reminder." So great.
Catherine Shanahan:
That's good. That's a good reminder.
Karen Chellew:
I love that.
Catherine Shanahan:
I also like what you said about, and one of the first things to help people move through that notion of death and divorce. Because again, I am a silver lining type of girl. So I feel passionate about this as well, dismantle. Yes. Your divorce, your life as you knew it, or what you thought you had or wish you hope that you had is now being dismantled. But when you dismantle, remember, it's just a chapter in your story. I always say divorce is a part of my story. It is not my entire story. It's just a little piece of it. So I like that phrasing dismantling.
Michelle Dempsey:
Thank you. I liken it, and I'd probably say this in every podcast, too losing a job. Obviously losing a job is not as emotionally traumatic as a divorce. However, when you lose your job, you don't lose the job and decide, "Oh my God, I've lost a job. I'm never going to work again and my whole life is over. Forget working. It's not for me. I'm just going to shrivel up and die." No, you take the lessons. "Okay. Maybe I wasn't as passionate at this job as I could have been because of X, Y, and Z. Maybe I'm really more designed to do something else." You take the lessons and you move forward and you get out and find another job. With ending a marriage, It's the same thing. That thing in your life didn't work out. That doesn't mean the other things can't work out. And so that's how I relate it.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you Michelle, for being with us today and for your wonderful work with Moms Moving On, I know your community really does count on you and we've heard great things about you from our podcasts with you recently. So thanks for being here and we look forward to more conversations.
Catherine Shanahan:
[crosstalk 00:25:15] forward to your book if you want to tell us a little bit about that, you said next week, we might have some good news on that?
Michelle Dempsey:
Yeah. So it will be available for pre-order next week, which will be the week of, the first week of February. If you go to my Instagram @The Michelle Dempsey, you will find a link in my bio to get on the list, to be able to get the information about pre-order and there are other links there. You can listen to my podcast, Moms Moving On, you can join my Mom's Moving On membership community, which is a really quickly growing community of women that have signed up. It's a low monthly fee of $9.99 cents to access all of my favorite divorce experts, resources from them. They get a free monthly workshop with me and another expert and obviously sense of community through our private Facebook page, which is amazing. And yeah, that's what I've got going on.
Karen Chellew:
Awesome. That's fantastic.
Catherine Shanahan:
Thank you so much.
Karen Chellew:
Congratulation.
Michelle Dempsey:
Thanks guys. Talk soon.
Catherine Shanahan:
Okay. Bye.
In this episode, we are welcoming Attorney Tiffany Hughes, founding partner of the Law Office of Tiffany M. Hughes, to the We Chat Divorce Podcast.
As of one of Chicago’s elite law firms, The Law Office of Tiffany M. Hughes concentrates solely in the area of family and matrimonial law, whereby they represent individuals in all aspects of family and matrimonial law proceedings, including litigation, mediation, allocation of parental responsibility (formerly known as custody), parentage, divorce, orders of protection and other family-related matters.
Their mission is to deliver the most practical, experienced, and effective legal representation to their clients. In order to achieve that goal, our Attorney Hughes and her firm combine an unparalleled level of service along with legal skill and judgment designed to help their clients successfully manage all family law matters.
Today, we're going to be talking about setting up your settlement!
Let's Chat . . .
What is the difference between family law and matrimonial law? Where does someone start with setting up for settlement? How does someone frame their case for settlement?
And don't miss the valuable tips on how to save time, money, and stress less during your divorce... Listen in!
Resources:
www.thugheslaw.com
tiffanyhughes@thugheslaw.com
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com
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The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work.
WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew.
WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
Read the transcript:
Karen Chellew:
Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Today, we are here with attorney Tiffany Hughes, the founding partner of the Law Office of Tiffany N. Hughes. Tiffany is recognized as an experienced and passionate advocate on behalf of her clients in the area of family law. She concentrates primarily in family and matrimonial law, and Tiffany, maybe you can tell us the difference between those two, including litigation, mediation, allocation of parental responsibility, formerly known as custody, parentage, divorce, and other related child matters. I should say, and other child-related matters. With representing a wide range of clients in family law, Tiffany handles matters from beginning to end, including litigation when needed, and settlement when available. Courtroom ready and effective, Tiffany keeps her clients' goals as her primary concern. So, today, we're going to be talking about setting up your settlement. Let's start out with how does someone frames their case for settlement?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Where do we start?
Karen Chellew:
Well, first of all, I would kind of like to go back with what is the difference between family law and matrimonial law? I don't know if a lot of people know that.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Good. Good question. Yeah, so matrimonial law is individuals that are married, so matrimony. So that's more of your divorces. Family law incorporates parentage, which is parties that are not married but have children together, so parentage actions. You've also got guardianship, adoption, child support. So anything that's not matrimonial, relating to marriage, is going to be your "family law matters".
Karen Chellew:
Okay.
Catherine Shanahan:
That is a good question. I don't think I ever really knew the difference.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah, I think [inaudible 00:01:59]-
Catherine Shanahan:
I lump them all together.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah, me too. Yeah, that's a good differentiation and I didn't really realize that what was formerly, I always consider it custody, what is the world now that I just [crosstalk 00:02:15]-
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, allocation of parental responsibility. So, they changed it to where now it's no longer referred to as custody. And that's just really, it's kind of a fancy phrase to explain the decision making, which the big four categories are education, school, religion and extra curricular. And then, parenting time, which incorporates holiday and regular parenting time. So, it's what we call the APR agreement, the allocation of parental responsibility agreement incorporates those things.
Catherine Shanahan:
You know what I love about that, I know this is not what we're supposed to be talking about. But, I love the word responsibility, because that whole custody agreement, of course I want custody, you want custody. But really, it's about what are your responsibilities and what are my responsibilities here? Because we both have them.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Right, exactly.
Catherine Shanahan:
I like that. I really do like that.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, and I think it makes sense. I mean, looking at it in that frame of mind where you have these four categories and deciding and then, both parents figuring out what makes sense for them and for the kids. It just kind of streamlines it, I think. It also makes it very clear for them what has to align and what has to be agreed upon. Versus with custody, it was kind of, well custody meant, "I want custody." Well, what does that really mean? Do you want decision making? Do you want the majority of parenting time? It was kind of this broad term that a lot of people didn't understand.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, they'd call my office and say, "I want to fight for full custody." And it's like, well are you talking about decision making or parenting time? What does that mean to you? Because it was very objective. Or very subjective rather.
Catherine Shanahan:
Right. And financially speaking, most of the times when people call us when they're doing their portrait it is, "I want custody so I don't have to pay so much in child support."
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Oh yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Huge, right [crosstalk 00:04:15]. So, let's kind of take that and segue into framing your case, or your situation for settlement because that custody factor, which a lot of people see it as a financial matter, not necessarily time with their kids or even decision making. How do all things flow in and where does someone start with setting up for settlement? When you go to an attorney most of the time, the attorney out of the gate is, from a client's perspective, is setting it up for trial. So, talk a little bit about how all that works together.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a good idea to set up a case for trial from the beginning. I think that that costs a lot of money for clients, but I think overall what you want to do is get a very, very in depth understanding of marital debts, marital assets, non-marital assets and non-martial debts.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, when I first am working with a client, I say, "Look, we need to put together a list of all of the assets and all of the debts." And getting the documents from them to start preparing what I do, which is a marital balance sheet. So, that's the first real initial step.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Now, a lot of the times, unfortunately, they don't know what assets there are. They were not in control of the finances. They don't know what accounts their husband has, or his wife has, or et cetera. So sometimes it's tricky because they don't have that information. So, a lot of times I'm a little tricky in what I do. And I say, "Well, why don't you check the mail?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, I don't check the mail. He usually gets the mail." So, she starts getting the mail and noticing that there's credit card statements that are coming in that is not a joint credit card. There's bank accounts that she's not listed on. Little things like that, that just start to help.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Depending on where they are in the process, if they're not ready to file yet, then I tell them to actually have a conversation with their spouse about this before moving on to the next step. So, setting up for settlement really occurs even before, in my opinion, before you even hire an attorney. Before you even really get started with anything because you need to know what you have. What are you looking at? What assets do you have? What debts?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Another thing is with the house. Just getting some basic understanding of, "Okay, well if I make $50,000 a year, and my husband is making $200. Even with the money that I get from settlement overall from the estate, would I even qualify for a re-fi on this house? Is keeping this house something that I can even do? Is it a viable option?"
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, thinking about all of these pieces from the beginning helps. You also have to be careful though because they're already very overwhelmed. They're already very emotional. They're scared. They don't know what the law is. They don't know what the process is. So, starting the process of settlement with them from the beginning has to be kind of a, you have to have a timeline approach. It can't be throwing everything at them and being like, "Okay, now go." Because they won't be able to do it, right?
Karen Chellew:
Right. And that's exactly why we started our company, My Divorce Solution, is to divorcees because we went through that. And helping clients establish all of that before they walk through an attorney's door, unless of course they're in harms way or some other situation that requires immediate legal help; it's invaluable to have that at your fingertips. And be able to deliver it, and not only deliver it but to confidentially talk about it and own the information.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Absolutely. I mean, you guys do amazing things. Obviously I love the both of you. But, without having your assistance, a lot of these clients, I mean, they just don't know what to do. And they don't know where to start, and they don't know how in depth and how much time that these things actually take to get in place and get it set up. So, I think overall initially, like I said, I'm really working with them on just getting a baseline understanding of what the assets and debts are. And seeing what they know about their financial situation overall.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And if I'm working with somebody that does have a lot of information, that is very well aware, and is not overwhelmed like if they're more of a type A personality. And they're very organized and they have things available, then I will say, "You know what? Why don't you go ahead and start sending me over the statements. Start sending me X and Y." And getting things prepared to then create the marital balance sheet and to look at the estate overall.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, you know what I love about you is, well first of all, I think you're just so articulate and really talented. And such a great match for so many people going through divorce. But, what I love about the combination of the two is that when we see the client come at that point where they're not sure, "Do I want to get a divorce or do I not? Or yeah, I think I'm organized." But then they end up not being so organized. It's really overwhelming when it's actually you, yourself, stepping into the shoes, going through the divorce process. No matter how together you feel you are or not.
Catherine Shanahan:
Your net value or your net worth of yourself is either really low because you never took hold of that information. Or, it's really too high. You think you know more than you actually know as it pertains to a divorce scenario. So, when they come through with us and we actually give them hands on with the documents and the information, I love to see the transfer over to you for their need and whether or not, you know what, you can settle this case probably. Or, you know what, your spouse is so non-inclusive of anything and there is no transparency, that this will be a litigated case.
Catherine Shanahan:
They go into you prepared because just, I don't know how you guys feel, but even though I have a police officer in my family, one would pull me over I get very nervous. I'm a pretty confident person, but it's just that uniform, it's just that stigma that they have, right?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Right.
Catherine Shanahan:
Walk into an attorney's office when you're going through a divorce is really scary. I mean, people have to bring a friend, or they bring Karen in our cases. Or, it's just even when I had to go myself. It's very intimidating. But to see them come in with that data, whether it's complete data or partial data, a work in progress, I feel like I see them so much more empowered. And then, I feel like you get to really do your job and to really set up their expectations with them because after all, that is really the part that could be the most misleading for someone when your expectations are not set out. It makes it for a much more difficult process.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, no and in addition to that, I mean, obviously if you don't know what assets and debts that you have, and what your financial future looks like, I mean that's a huge, huge stressor for them to then add on top of that unrealistic expectations of that they're going to be walking away with a million dollars when you don't even have a million dollars in your estate. You think you do, but you don't because you don't know. So, in line with what you're saying, I mean, the expectation aspect of the whole process is something that I go through with them, really during the initial call or meeting that I have. And saying, "Illinois is an equitable distribution state. I'm also licensed as an attorney in Florida and practice there. Florida is an equitable distribution state."
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, going through what that means, so it doesn't mean that it's 50/50 but it usually is. And just getting them to understand that things are going to be split. Giving them the knowledge that most attorneys don't give you. Usually you walk into an attorney's office and it's, "Hi, take a seat. Okay, all right." It's like a business transaction. There's no personalized-
Catherine Shanahan:
What do you want?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, what do you want?
Catherine Shanahan:
What do you want? What are you fighting [crosstalk 00:12:52]-
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
You want the kids? You want the kids? Okay, how much of the time? I mean, it's just very sad.
Karen Chellew:
So true! It's so true.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, I know.
Karen Chellew:
In talking about, and giving clients expectations without knowing their information first, I sit there and I listen. And, "Oh, well I'm sure that I can get you X amount of month. And you'll get the house, and we'll take him to the cleaners." In the initial consult, and I'm thinking, well first of all, this is not what she wants and you're scaring her to death. And second of all, how's this going to effect the kids and the family unit post divorce? And then, as it's going along, no where near the number that the attorney said. On a lot of levels, I think it's just a sales tactic and they don't really care.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
It is [crosstalk 00:13:46]-
Karen Chellew:
It's very frustrating.
Catherine Shanahan:
And we've seen cases where, exactly what you said Tiffany, they, "Here, we'll get you a million dollars." And they don't even really have a million dollars, so how are you getting them a million dollars, right?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Right.
Catherine Shanahan:
But I'm sure you get a lot of cases where they've hired that attorney who's promised something above the expectations that are realistic. $10,000 later or more, that client realizes that they're being set up to settle, that they're not going to get any of that stuff, and they never expected that. So, now they move to a new attorney, which is why some attorneys get a bad rap. So, now you must get a lot of those cases where they come in and now, you're dealt with, okay, they were set up to think they're getting this. And now, I have to have the realistic talk with them.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah.
Catherine Shanahan:
How do you do that shift from, "Okay, this is what you heard, this is where you were. I'm sorry you're that many thousand dollars into it, but here's what we have to do to settle this case because you do have your financial portrait." And hopefully they've come to us at some point and they get it finally. And now, we have to shift gears and shift mindset to a very emotional divorcing couple.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, well I mean, to be honest with you, I literally tell them, "I will never lie to you. You don't know me yet, but I'm somebody that you can trust and you can obviously talk to any one of my other clients that I've had over almost a decade. Unfortunately though, I'm not going to tell you things that will always make you happy. So, you need to understand that I'm going to be honest, and you may not like it, but it's the reality of what we're talking about. And I need you to understand what reality looks like versus what your expectations may or may not be and what the law is. So, I'm going to give you the knowledge and provide you an understanding of what the law is. And then, we can talk about how we can work on what settlement looks like for you. So, if you want the house, how do we enable you to keep the house? If you wanted X, how do we enable you to do that?"
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, my approach with them is very non-lawyer-like really other than-
Karen Chellew:
I can see that.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah. It's very, it's more of a conversation and just trying to understand what's important to them, ultimately what their expectations are. And I'll be honest with you, I mean, I do not take every case and there's a lot of reasons why. But one of the biggest reasons is expectations. I know from the onset of that conversation that I cannot get them X because it's just not possible legally. And I know that if I were to take the case and not get them X, then they're not going to be happy. So, I have no interest in doing it when I know that legally it's not going to happen. And I'll tell them that.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And if they're understanding and they really truly are being understanding about it, then I'll consider representing them. But if not, I'm not your girl, you know?
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah.
Catherine Shanahan:
You're not the shark in Stilettos right?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Not in that case I won't be.
Catherine Shanahan:
I love that. Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
So, Tiffany, how do you balance and what can a client expect when working with their attorney when you're balancing preparing for trial, or that root of litigation because that is what an attorney does as you're also trying to settle? So, I think you have to take steps down the litigation path to keep the case moving, especially if you have a spouse who's just sitting there with their arms crossed. So, how do you help a client kind of balance that and navigate through those two different pathways?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, I mean, it's very challenging for clients. They don't understand the work that goes into a trial. They think that, "Well, I've already tendered you all the documents. And you already have a marital balance sheet now, that we're pretty much done." And it doesn't work that like. So, with settlement obs we have all of the documents, we have full financial disclosure. And then, we start to arrange what essential they want and how we can make it look appealing to the other spouse, right?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, when we're doing that we have, and I keep referencing the marital balance sheet because it's just easy. And again, a marital balance sheet essentially, for those who don't know, is just it's a spreadsheet that has nothing fancy like what you guys do. But, if I'm just putting something together, it has all of the assets and all of the debts. And you can literally move around, you want... If we're going to give her the house, then the house goes on her side of the balance sheet and then, we distribute the assets and the debts accordingly. So, that way if we're doing a 50/50 equitable distribution case we know that we have to have the same amount of 50/50 on both sides.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
There's a huge strategy in making settlement offers that are literally the same thing but look different to the other spouse. So, when we're setting up for settlement these are the things that I do. When we're setting up for trial, it's, "Okay, now let's look at what the law is. And let's see based upon the link of the marriage how much non-marital assets, factors that are considered for Illinois, under 503, the statute. How are we going to divide the property and what would that look like at a trial?"
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
There are certain things that a judge can't order at a trial, but that parties can agree to. So, you've got to keep in mind that it's not the same, and a lot of clients are like, "But he agreed to this. Or we could have the judge order that." And it's like, well if we go to trial that's off the table because now the judge doesn't have the discretion to do X. So, really explaining it in depth, again with being cautious of not overwhelming them at the same time, because they think trial and they think, "Oh my God, I'm going to spend $20, $40, $50,000 just immediately to get all of this going."
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, it's not easy to answer your question completely because it's-
Karen Chellew:
No, I think you did-
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
But-
Karen Chellew:
It was very helpful [crosstalk 00:20:35]-
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah. I think so too, because I got to be honest with you, I never even understood that it was the attorney's job to explain the law to the judge.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, it is.
Catherine Shanahan:
And to fight for your client's rights there. I just thought the judge was the one who knew all the laws and was going to apply it himself. So, just your little explanation goes a little bit much further than what I'm saying. But I think that as a whole, the everyday person doesn't understand. Now, I'm just the financial person. Karen understands it because she worked with a firm for so long, so she gets it. But someone like me, and most of the people out there, didn't really understand that it was true. You know what I want, go in there and get it for me.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Right.
Catherine Shanahan:
They didn't look at it in that perspective, which is why, again, nobody wants to go to the courtroom. Nobody should want to go to a courtroom.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
No, and I think this is really helpful for everybody when they are framing settlement and getting set up for settling, is keep in mind when you're settling you have the control. You have the power. When you walk into the courtroom, you lose that power. When you have settlement, you can come up with creative solutions in order to resolve and to distribute the marital estate. You really have a lot of creative solutions for parenting time and for non-financial related matters like holidays, and decision making.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
When you go into a courtroom there is no creative solution. It's cookie cutter. It's, "Well, we're going to do this. We're going to alternate. We're going to do this." And everything is very, very cookie cutter. So, when you're looking at settling and you have the ability to be creative in doing it, it's something that really, honestly is the best. That's why I always start off with how can we frame this case for settlement? What do we need to do next?
Karen Chellew:
That best benefits your client. And so, I run against, well Catherine and I both do, we run up against a lot of people thinking what our portrait is, is what you call a marital balance sheet. Or, some people call it a net worth statement. So, that's great to have, but that doesn't help the client understand if I take the house, this is what it means to me financially. How much retirement would I be giving up and what does that mean to me? What do I need for cashflow from my budget? How are all these divisions going to affect me long term?
Karen Chellew:
And so, the delivery of what we call the MDS financial portrait allows you, as an attorney, to move that data around that sheet with the client knowing what all of those assets and liabilities being moved around means to them long term. So-
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
That's invaluable.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, and what it entails to move them because it's not as easy as just, "Okay, here's your marital settlement agreement. See you later. Go do it." It's a lot of effort to make some moves amongst those assets and debt.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah, especially for the higher net worth with the executive compensation being played in, and prior employers who had the deferred compensation. So, that can get lost in all of those moving arounds of the net worth statement if the client doesn't have the knowledge and the questions to ask to make sure that all of those factors remain front and center. And not just front and center, but what that means to them long term in different markets and this whole year of COVID really has just changed the landscape of a lot of couples divorcing modules. And, their division scenarios, so that's something that you point out that's very important, I think.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Well, and to add to that, I mean then you start looking at tax implications. Do you know how many attorneys don't even advise clients on tax implications?
Catherine Shanahan:
Yes, we do.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
I don't even know if they really even care. I mean, it just boggles my mind.
Karen Chellew:
Even have the knowledge. Yeah.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
No, they don't, and honestly I feel like you're really doing your client a disservice by not even acknowledging that, "Look, you're going to have this IRA. He's going to take the cash. What does that mean for you? And then, when you take it out at 65, or 62, or 59 and a half, or whatever it may be; that's income to you. Where he just took a nice lump sum cash buyout and you don't have any of that, which isn't an income to you." So, nobody explaining these things. Why don't you do a division of an IRA or something along those lines, and what I do is I subtract out, for my client.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Like, "Okay, well if you're going to take this on, then this IRA actually only equals X because once I do the net, take out all the taxes and get to that portion of it, this is really what you're left with. So, therefore if we're going to do a cash buyout and really make it equal, we have to consider these things." So, I mean, it's just unbelievable to me. Going through all of these things with clients is just so important, and unfortunately, a lot of attorneys, either they don't know or to be honest with you, they don't care.
Karen Chellew:
I agree.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
It's too much time. It's too much... It's an inconvenience. They probably are taking on every single case they can get, and really it's just how much money can I make from the client and get this over with? And they're not invested.
Catherine Shanahan:
Right. It's too much work for them, and at that point they've already earned their fees that they want to earn. But, you also have to consider the earnings on the tax deferred growth on that investment as well. I mean, that's what we do with all of these accounts because there really is a way that you have to true up the investments to both parties, and allow the considerations and recommendations. But, what I really want to shift back to, again, is that when you're getting ready to settle and one of the parties is just not... They're just going to push you to the end. A lot of people, I say they just run out of their patience. They get a divorce fatigue about them, and their patience are gone, and they're just saying, "Okay, I'm being forced to settle, basically."
Catherine Shanahan:
When do you decide, where do you play that card, "I'm going to hold out to the end. I'm going to hold them until he folds, basically" and going, "I can stay the course because that's my personality" but a lot of people can't. So, I think that what gets lost sometimes is when you don't have, and which is why we spend so much time on our portrait with our clients is, at the end there when your patience are running out and you have divorce fatigue and you're just done with this. If you don't have a document to go back to and say, "Okay, I'm willing to stick until this comes to fruition, or I'll let the judge decide. Or I'm willing to take scenario B or C, because I see it right here in front of me, so I'm making a decision on that." How do you work with the other side of being the stronger link there that you're willing to go to the end? What is-
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
A lot of it, really to be honest, is based upon... and I'm going to assume that there was what we call a pre-trial conference, which is where we actually sit down with the judge and the judge gives us a recommendation as though if we were going to trial. I'm going to assume also that that judge would also be our trial judge because unfortunately, a lot of times we have judges giving us pre-trial recommendations but it doesn't matter. They're not our trial judge. So, that has no weight. It doesn't mean anything. They're not going to be the ones that is hearing the trial itself, then why does it matter? I don't care what you think. You're not doing the trial. Your recommendations won't mean anything to either counsel because if they know, they know that that judge will not be the trial judge.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, assuming we're before a trial judge, assuming there's a pre-trial recommendation, I know that the judge recommended X. And I know also what he would have the discretion to do at a trial. I can tell the client, "Look, if you take this, if you take what he offers you, you're going to get $500,000, right? Now, I can't guarantee you anything in what happens at a trial, but I can tell you that it's kind of like gambling, because it is. But, you're looking at upwards of over a million if we go to trail. So, do you want to take the risk? Let's do a cost benefit analysis. How much is it going to cost to get you to trial? Does it make sense for you to go to trial?"
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
If the offers are low, then we are forced to. I had this just happen to me a couple years ago. A client and I worked together for like three and a half years, and got great pre-trial recommendations. And, the husband wouldn't settle it. So, we did a five day, back to back, full trial in front of Judge Walker in Cook County, and she got three times the amount that I anticipated she was going to get.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, for her, it made sense, right? It was amazing.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And she actually just got remarried before COVID. I went to her wedding.
Catherine Shanahan:
Awe!
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And so, that was really great-
Karen Chellew:
So, was she scared and did she falter every now and then and say, "Oh, I'm not 100% sure." Did you have... Was it a challenge to keep her engaged because you were so confident that the offers were so low? Because I think sometimes we run into that where the other spouse just bullies, bullies, bullies to the point that they've lived their entire life listening to their spouse. And he was the authoritarian or she was the authoritarian for all that time. And now, they're having to make independent decisions and can they trust that decision when they're so new at it, with new advisors and so forth.
Karen Chellew:
So, do you find that, specifically even in that case, that she had a little bit of trouble hanging in to see it through?
Catherine Shanahan:
But before you answer that, on that same type of client, we have seen time and time again, and I can already tell by just the few times I've talked to you and your personality, and what I've read about you. We see the own client's attorney then bully them into settling, because either it's financially over their head and they don't want to do anymore work. They haven't followed along with it, and they don't want to catch up because it's too much work to show up. Trial is a lot of work for the attorney, and half the information, when I see it, it's never even used. So, they're just gathering this information.
Catherine Shanahan:
So, we've seen their own attorney say, "You should go settle this." So, it's like they're being bullied almost on both sides.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
That is absolutely the saddest situation.
Catherine Shanahan:
It is.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And I have seen it, and it's very, very, very upsetting. Literally, a lot of attorneys, because they hadn't done their jobs originally, discovery, so the tendering of all the documents, that's all closed. So, if you didn't tender it previously, you can't use it at trial. So, guess what? Their attorney thought, "Oh well, we're not going to go to trial, so I'm not going to worry about tendering the documents. And they have enough of the documents. We don't need this document or that document." Maybe they were lazy with it, never pushed the client to ask them for certain things.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
But when you go to trial, you have a non-marital house from prior to the marriage, well everything under the law is presumed marital, which means it's your burden to prove that that's a non-marital home. And if you didn't tender the documents regarding that home, how are you going to prove it's non-marital? So, they catch themselves, the attorneys that is, in a situation where they're advising their clients something that is not in their best interest because they didn't do their job initially.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And then you've got, just like you guys are saying, you've got situations where the other spouse was authoritative. He or she was very much in control of everything, and the other spouse does feel bullied. The client I was telling you about, the husband actually used the emancipated children, the children that are obviously over 18, he used them against her. He actually blamed her to the children for doing all of this and making litigation be so [crosstalk 00:34:19]-
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, and oh my gosh, it's just... So, her daughters still to this day do not talk to her.
Catherine Shanahan:
Which is sad.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
It's just so upsetting. But you know what? She stuck with me, and she knew that I would never take her down a road that I wouldn't personally go down myself. And that's what I do with my clients. I would never ever advise you something that is not in your best interest. And if I wouldn't do it personally, I would never tell you to do it.
Catherine Shanahan:
I love that.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And so, she really, she stuck by me. She understood. I spent a lot of time with the education piece of it for to understand this asset, if we go to trial, this asset if we don't. Going line by line and her to see the potential numbers of what it would look like. And then, we had the unknown categories of specifically for her was the dissipation, where he was spending money on his girlfriend and the traveling. And Mexico and all these gifts, and all this stuff that he bought the girlfriend. And it all worked out.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Honestly, it is obviously a case by case basis, but doing the cost benefit analysis, giving them an idea of what they would get at trial really helps them. And then, just getting them focused on you know what, even if we settle right now, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be divorced tomorrow.
Catherine Shanahan:
Right.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
By the time we get a date for the divorce, the prove up date, by the time we get everything on file you're not going to be divorced tomorrow. So, okay, what? We've been in it for a year. What's two more months to get you what you really could potentially get? Versus you just settling now because you want out.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, what I love about that, and if your client listens to this, I want her to know that she should really be proud of herself because at the end of the day, you go home. We go home. We all go home. So, they're left... The judge goes home, and her ex moves on with his life very easily. So, she's stuck with what she felt in her gut was right. I mean, she had a good champion ahead of herself by having you to help her with that. But at the end of the day, her daughters are going to see this. Take it from me, take it from Karen, we've seen it. I've seen it personally. I've seen it through a lot of our clients. Those kids will come back around because the true colors always shine.
Catherine Shanahan:
So, that's really, I love to hear someone that is able to persevere. And believe me, we believe in settlement. We love mediation for the clients who are informed. They come through our process, we know they're informed. So, we want anyone to avoid court, but to have your attorney and have your spouse bully you to a decision is something that is so upsetting to us at our firm, and just anyone that we know. So, I love actually hearing this story to be honest with you.
Karen Chellew:
I wish we could replicate you a thousand times.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, seriously.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Me too. [crosstalk 00:37:28].
Karen Chellew:
Oh my goodness.
Catherine Shanahan:
We have a lot of great mediators that we know, but good litigators...
Karen Chellew:
Oh, it's so hard.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And that's another thing to mention, Karen what you were talking about in regards to attorneys pushing settlement. There are, I can tell you at least in the domestic relations division, which is the family and matrimonial law, that a lot of attorneys actually don't know how to do a trial. They don't know how to litigate. Actually like, not just go into court and go into a pre-trial in the back, and making arguments in chambers. I'm talking about opening statements, rules of evidence, moving in exhibits into evidence, testimony, cross examination, closing arguments. A lot of attorneys don't know how to do that.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And that's, sometimes to be honest with you, I have a good percentage of my clients right now that know how great of a trial attorney I am, that came to me just to do the trial. Saying, "My attorney can't even do it. I'm not happy with him anyway. I need somebody who knows trial work, and who is going to be a shark in Stilettos." And I am that girl at that time if I have to be. But it's amazing.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, a lot of attorneys will avoid trial because they don't know how to do it.
Karen Chellew:
[crosstalk 00:39:03] agree, and I just want to point out, a shark in Stilettos doesn't mean to someone else's detriment. It means standing in the gap for your client. That's powerful, and we just don't see that a lot. Thank you.
Catherine Shanahan:
I want to follow up on what you just said, because I think it's... Let me remember what you just said. I'm getting all excited about it, all these things I want to ask you a question.
Karen Chellew:
So am I.
Catherine Shanahan:
Not knowing how to go to trial. I mean, my own attorney didn't even go on record and ask for attorney fees. And what people don't understand is I, at one point during trial, was saying to my ex, I was talking directly to him because I knew the truth. I knew he knew the truth, so I'm trying to talk to him. And the judge kept saying, "You're not allowed to talk to him." You know? Or, I turned right to the judge, I'm a talker and I know finances. So, I turned to the judge to explain something. He's like, "You can't do that. It has to go through your attorney."
Catherine Shanahan:
I was like, to Karen later, "What did they mean I can't say it? I know this information, and I want to look him in the eyes." And they're like, "You're not allowed. That's not the process." So, I had a learning experience that you have to make sure your attorney is really going to say everything that you want them to say, or fight for you, because if it doesn't come out of your attorney's mouth, it's not going to happen. And I didn't realize that, so I do think it's so important you have an attorney if you're going that litigation route, or if it ends up having to go that route, that that attorney is like you. They're equipped and they know how to enter all the orders, and do all of those things that go on record, and everything else that goes over my head. Because again, I'm just a logical thinker. I'm not really a follow this process thinker.
Catherine Shanahan:
So, yeah, that is very important. It's so refreshing to hear you speak like this actually, because I really [inaudible 00:40:56] down and dirty. Like what do you guys say about each other at the end of the day when you walk out of that courtroom, because I know what we say about certain people. And it's terrible because we need you. It's a matter of getting the right fit.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, and the problem is, is that a lot of attorneys are not really, truly passionate about what they do. Right? So, for them, it's like, oh they work at a firm, they're a partner, they have to bill so many hours, they have to collect so much money, otherwise they're out of a job. But they don't love it. They're not truly, truly invested in it, because it's just a job. The difference is with me it's like the zealous representation they get is because I'm very passionate about what I do. I know that sounds silly but it isn't. It's hard to explain because a lot of attorneys, they don't have that fight in them anymore.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
It's kind of like, and it's sad to say it because I love animals and I love my dog. She's actually sitting over here. But, it's like an older dog, and they just kind of lay down and play dead because they're tired. And attorneys that aren't fully invested in their clients, that's what happens when they go to court for you. That's not good. They don't ask for things. They don't ask for attorney's fees. They don't zealously represent you because they're just tired. And they're not [crosstalk 00:42:21].
Catherine Shanahan:
It's okay. You're there.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Guys?
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah.
Karen Chellew:
Yep.
Catherine Shanahan:
You're there.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Sorry, I lost you.
Catherine Shanahan:
That's okay. You're back.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Okay. Sorry about that. So, anyway, what I was saying is that's what happens when they go to court, right? They're not fighting for you. They're not zealously representing you, and that's why you have to be very careful on what lawyer you decide to have represented you because you don't know it from the beginning. And, unfortunately, little things that are so easy to ask for that are never done, it's just because they're not invested. They don't care.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
It's like it means nothing to them. They're not invested. They're not getting anything if you get $100,000. They don't get anything. It's illegal, right? Ethically, it's not allowed. So, they're just like, "Well, whatever."
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Chellew:
I'm going to make an observation here because it's my experience that when I go to a consult with a client, an initial consult, I'm just going to leave it at that one, where the attorney's promising them everything. "I'm going to do this. I know that judge. I know him. I know her. I know the whole world, and the whole world essentially bows at my feet." [inaudible 00:43:46] you know? "I am it."
Karen Chellew:
Versus someone like you, who says, "You know what? I'm going to be straight up. We're going to start here, and then we're going to go here. And I'm never going to lie to you, but I'm always going to be there for you." So, while that may not... That's a bit of a different story in an initial consult, but I think as a client, you should be able to recognize the difference because that representation is going to play out because someone who talks that way in the beginning is not going to deliver at the end because it's all about their ego. And all about who loves them, and they just need this new client to love them, because they need a lot of money, billable hours, to your point, to keep their job. Or run their firm or whatever. And that's a very different message than what I hear you saying today.
Karen Chellew:
And if we could have more attorneys that would take that approach and just be real, because these are real people and real families. And it's not about taking somebody to the cleaners. It's not about that. It's about my fair share and will I be okay? And how do I set up my new life? It's really about that, and that's something we just don't see a lot of.
Catherine Shanahan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah. And what we were talking about previously is in regards to attorneys that specifically ruin settlement for the benefit of themselves or their firm. Specifically just eliminating any chance of settlement and moving a client towards a trial when they know that it's not in their best interest. I tell clients all the time, I say, "Look, I don't want you to pay a lot of money in attorney's fees. That's not at all what I'm looking for you to have to do. In fact, my goal is, is that you pay as least as possible and then, in turn, you tell your neighbor, your friend, your family, your boss, whoever. Hey, you know what, Tiffany and her team did such an amazing job." And that's how my business grows.
Catherine Shanahan:
Absolutely.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yeah, I don't churn, that's what they call it in my division. Churn a file. I don't do that, and it's not good. I mean, these attorneys that do that, I mean, these parties just spent their kids' college tuition over litigation for what? So, when you do that initial consult with that attorney who's like, "I know this guy, and I know this guy. I'm just the end all, be all." Think about what the real intentions are. And think about how that person's going to frame your settlement, and how they're actually put the work that they're going to put into your case, because they're not invested. And if they're not invested, they're not going to put the time in. It's going to be very cookie cutter. It's going to be very, very bare minimum work at a very, very high price.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, attorneys like myself, that are really invested in clients, we are so eager to get the best result. Whatever that means, like how ever long that takes. And if that means that you know what, maybe it took me an hour and a half, and maybe I went a little overboard, I'll no charge. I'll no charge some time for them. Although it's technically billable and the judge would grant me that time, I do it as a courtesy because I really go above and beyond in all of the work that I do. So, it really is sad, like I keep saying, about these other attorneys.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
But, with all of us working together, we make a difference.
Catherine Shanahan:
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to hear that because I said to Karen, "If I hear one more attorney or judge even say that this is the process, and it's the process." And I keep saying, "Well, then change the process. Change your attitude, which will change the process." But they don't, and that's why when I say what's the down and dirty with the attorneys when they're off alone and they leave their clients there? Is it, "I'm going to get to you..." We've heard this before, "You have the weaker spouse, so you need to settle." Those kinds of things are really frustrating and even these trial attorneys sometimes when the trail comes, they're not the ones that show up. They send their associate.
Catherine Shanahan:
We've seen the, what is it called? [crosstalk 00:48:20] yeah, the associate. They send them for the case, or the conference officer, or for the trial case. And you're like, "What? Why is that person showing up? I've paid for the other one all this time."
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yep, exactly. Yeah, it's crazy [crosstalk 00:48:38]. And then, that's a problem that a lot of clients have too, it's like, "Okay, well I just spent all this time going through settlement with you, and we're trying to reach an agreement. And now, all of a sudden, you're not even working on my case anymore." So, they just get passed around to different people who then have to catch up on what the other attorney did to understand what recently happened with this. And the client's getting billed for it. And, all the while, nobody really knows what the hell's going on because there hasn't been one attorney on it long enough to really understand what the hell's going on.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
So, that's, again, why obviously having you guys is so, so crucial. Being able to put together the parts of the finances and the assets and the debts, and long term investment information. And then, letting me being able to do my job, where I can focus on that aspect and not have to do that. And not to mention, it saves the client a lot of money.
Karen Chellew:
Yes, and I love that you help your client understand they're not just taking your word for it. You're making sure they understand what's happening, what their decisions mean to them. That's incredible.
Catherine Shanahan:
Yeah, which is why we want to align with you and mediators and the good attorneys that we come across, is because if we can all streamline this process, if you, the people, let us do your financials and let the attorneys do their job, let the mediator do their job. It's less stress, it's less time, it's less money. That's changing the system that I am passionate to change. Karen, I'm getting all heated because I'm thinking of all these cases. And I wish Tiffany would have been in on.
Karen Chellew:
I know.
Catherine Shanahan:
Clients have been on. Right? So, this has been great information. It really is. I hope if you're listening and you're in the gunk, or the middle of this, you realize that there are other options for you. And if you're looking just to hire an attorney that really it's an important conversation that it's every right that you have to have it.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Absolutely. Yeah. Knowledge is power.
Karen Chellew:
Absolutely.
Catherine Shanahan:
In divorce, knowledge is everything.
Karen Chellew:
Yeah. Tiffany, for those lucky people who are going through a difficult situation, who they have access to you, what counties in Florida and what counties in Illinois? Is it Illinois?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Illinois, yep.
Karen Chellew:
Are they able to access your help?
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Right now, with COVID and everything occurring via Zoom, I'm in all counties in Illinois and all counties in Florida. When things change, then I won't know yet as far as Florida exactly. Right now I'm in Hendry County, but the Palm Beach area, Fort Lauderdale, Miami. So, more of like the Southeast of Florida. All of those counties.
Catherine Shanahan:
I'll go work with you there. Karen can go to Illinois. I'm coming to Florida.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
I know, right?
Catherine Shanahan:
I know you'll need me there. You don't want to see me over Zoom.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
Yes. And then, in Illinois when Zoom it's... pre-COVID, McHenry County, Cook, Du Page, Will, Lake. I do some work in Grundy. Pretty much when it comes to any county, whether it's Illinois or Florida, I have clients that call me and say, "You know what? I don't mind to pay the reduced hourly for the drive time. I really don't mind, because I'd rather have you than have somebody else." And the people that are in those [crosstalk 00:52:34]... Yeah, the people that are in those counties, especially the smaller ones, everybody kind of works together. And the clients, rightfully so, feel like that opposing counsel is really on their side because they're friends with ex.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
And, unfortunately, a lot of times that's kind of true. I can't say that it's not. Not every time, but I understand the concern and they would rather have me from the city, downtown, working on... I work on high asset net worth cases, so they need somebody who has the knowledge. They need somebody that has the power, the ferociousness. So, here I am.
Catherine Shanahan:
Awesome.
Karen Chellew:
Thank you. Continue your great work. We'll continue our conversations I'm sure. And, this concludes our podcast, and we will see you on the next one.
Tiffany Hughes, Esq:
All right, thank you so much guys. It's been an absolute pleasure as always.
Catherine Shanahan:
Thank you.
In this episode of We Chat Divorce Podcast, Catherine and Karen have the privilege of chatting with Attorney Rosemarie Ferrante. Rosemarie is an attorney licensed in New York and Connecticut, who focuses her practice on non-adversarial divorce through mediation and the collaborative divorce process. Rosemarie believes one of the most important factors for couples who are contemplating divorce is to understand that there are many professionals who are available to assist them through the process. The professionals needed, are specific to your family. REMEMBER: Somebody's mediation might not be the same as yours, and the professional best suited for you might be different based on your specific needs and the needs of your family. Let’s Chat… Details In Your Divorce Agreement:
Divorce is NOT One Size Fits ALL
Make Sure Specific Financial Details are Spelled Out
Know the Financial Impact Before Signing
Utilize a Reviewing Attorney
Resources: https://www.divorcemediationct.com/attorneys/rosemarie-ferrante/ If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This month we welcome Elizabeth (Liz) Billies to The We Chat Divorce Podcast! Liz has been working as a divorce attorney in suburban Philadelphia at the firm of Dischell Bartle and Dooley, P.C. During this time, she’s represented hundreds of men and women going through separation and divorce. In doing so she has learned a few (maybe more than a few) things about relationships and the divorce process. In addition, to her family law practice, Ms. Billies also operates her blog, the Divorce Lawyer Life, where she provides her readers with practical tips to help them expertly navigate the divorce process to their best post-divorce life. In this episode, we're going to be discussing family-owned businesses and divorce. Let's Chat...
Generational family-owned businesses
Husband and wife owned businesses
What to look for (books & records)
What to listen for ( what is your spouse saying about the business)
and much more! If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
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We Chat Divorce Podcast welcomes Jennifer Hurvitz! Jennifer is known for her no-nonsense approach to all things relationships and is proud to say she's made quite the career out of pretty disastrous circumstances...her own divorce. Jennifer is a Certified Divorce Specialist (CDS™), public speaker, best- selling author, and host of the Doing Divorce Right Podcast. Divorced since 2014, Jennifer lives in Charlotte with her two kick-ass teenage boys. Through her popular blog, The Truth Hurvitz, and weekly podcast, Jennifer helps people understand what a happy divorce can look like and how to dip their toes back into the dating world. She loves sharing her insight on how to stay in a successful marriage, too! Jen has also been featured on OprahMagazine.com, twice! And look out for her TEDx Talk in 2021! In this episode, Karen and Catherine chat with Jennifer about…
Jennifer’s straightforward approach to Divorce Coaching, from establishing your divorce team, coparenting, dating, and setting goals!
Dating After Divorce and Your Non-Negotiables List
Lower Your Expectations and Just Have Fun!
Financial Red Flags
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST----more----
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In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we are thrilled to welcome Wendy Sterling. Wendy is a Divorce Recovery Specialist, certified ThetaHealing Practitioner, podcaster, writer, author, and speaker who founded The Divorce Rehab™. Wendy helps divorced women recover from their divorce by finding their true identity and voice by ending their pity party, mourning the loss of their marriage, to create a new and better life they design. After her own unexpected divorce and finding the world of coaching, she realized she could combine her 20 years of experience in Corporate America as a leader with this new coaching methodology and make a profound impact in the world. She helps women see their divorce as a gift, it happens FOR them not TO them. Let’s Chat -
Discovering Your Identity
Gain Self Esteem to Move Forward After Divorce
Celebrate Those “Little” Victories th
POWER in the PAUSE - Divorce Is Not an Emergency
Where Can You Find Resources?
Is Divorce Recovery Possible?
Wendy Sterling is hosting a fantastic LIVE EVENT with an all-star expert guest line up! The LIVE SHOW called Divorce & Narcissism: How to Communicate, Set Boundaries and Get What You NEED from a Narcissist airs Tuesday, September 29th! Enjoy FREE ACCESS by clicking the link to register – https://www.wendysterling.net/divorce-and-narcissism-live We will see you there! *** if you would like access Wendy Sterling’s Beyond Divorce Online Summit , go ahead and email her at wendy@wendysterling.net If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
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In this episode of We Chat Divorce we are excited to welcome Sheila Tucker, MA, LAMFT. Sheila is a licensed associate marriage and family therapist and founder of Heart Mind & Soul Counseling in Hilton Head Island, South Carolina. Sheila helps couples identify their unhelpful relationship patterns and create new ways of understanding themselves and one another. She also works with individuals who feel held down and held back by anxiety. Sheila joins Catherine and Karen to talk about “the stories we tell ourselves” and offers a treasure house of information for couples that have gone through divorce, going through divorce, or thinking about divorce. Let’s Chat -
Defining “the stories we tell ourselves” and what that entails
Co Parenting communication
Don’t be embarrassed! Amending your relationship with money
YOU do deserve to be HAPPY despite divorce
Change your story to Facts vs Fiction
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com Resources: Instagram: @heartmindsoulcounseling https://www.heart-mind-soul.com/about sheila@heart-mind-soul.com (843) 592-3998 200 Main Street Hilton Head Island, SC 29926----more----
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In this episode of We Chat Divorce we welcome Kate Anthony! Kate is the host of the critically acclaimed and New York Times recommended podcast The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast and the creator of the groundbreaking online coaching program, “Should I Stay or Should I Go?”, which helps women make the most difficult decision of their lives using coaching tools, relationship education, geeky neuroscience, community support, and deep self-work. Let’s chat about…
Kate’s Online Coaching Program: Should you stay or should you go?
Unpacking the cultural influence on marriage
Fairytale expectations and Emotional Needs
Making EMOTIONAL and FINANCIAL decisions not just for ourselves, but for our children
Healing your resentment
We hope you enjoy listening to this month’s episode of We Chat Divorce. If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com Resources: https://www.kateanthony.com/stay-or-go-group
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On this episode, we are honored to welcome Kelly Galardi. Kelly is a CPA that provides tax advisory services for small businesses and individuals. She specializes in working with clients who are separating or divorcing. Let’s chat about… yes, TAXES. There is a lot to deal with during a divorce. Add to the list more complicated paperwork during tax filing time…ugh!
Do I file separately or jointly while I am going through a divorce?
Benefits to filing as head of household.
Electronically Filing joint tax returns, without both spouses having signed off!? OH MY! What you will need is a 8879 form annually.
Where do I go to find the status of my stimulus payment? Imagine a couple who filed taxes jointly in 2018, and their refund was direct deposited into their joint bank account. But they divorced in 2019, and they no longer share the bank account…
We hope you enjoy listening to this month’s episode of We Chat Divorce. If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com Resources: IRS Stimulus Check Tracker www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment
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In this episode, we are Frankly Speaking with the co-authors of Our Happy Divorce, Nikki and Ben. Nikki knows how being supported by a strong, loving family can influence the way a person navigates life, love, marriage, and motherhood. Having grown up as a member of the iconic San Francisco 49ers football family, she was thrown into the limelight at a young age. The values her family instilled in her have helped shape who she is today, and she continues to live by them.coparents Ben intimately understands the detriment divorce can cause in the lives of children. The example of his parents’ divorce instilled in him a deep commitment "to do" better by his own kids. Ben is an investor, board member, philanthropist, golfer, and sports enthusiast. But above all, he is a dedicated father and family man who understands the importance of putting his ego aside and his children first. IT WAS NOT PERFECT ... Nikki and Ben define their own personal story with us and discuss what happy looks like today. Inspired by their son, they developed ways to co-parent, step-parent with an emphasis on putting the children first. As they say, “If we can do it, anyone can do it”. As Catherine says, "DIVORCE does not mess your kids up, it is how both parents BEHAVE before, during, and after divorce that can mess your children up." There is a different way to get Divorced. Let’s talk about it…
Getting to the “Happy” … We chat about cleaning up the wreckage of the past and forgiveness.
How can we stop pointing the finger at our spouse and get honest with ourselves?
Do not fool yourself, your children know what is going on.
Open discussions about financial settlements and joint custody.
Using the Divorce Process to redefine what your life, your finances, and relationship will be like post-divorce.
Co-Parenting and Step-parenting survival tips during the pandemic.
Want to learn more about Our Happy Divorce? Visit their website at https://ourhappydivorce.com/ Whether you are thinking of divorce/separation, are in the midst of a divorce, or embarking on your new life after divorce, this episode has something to help you. If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com
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In this episode of the We Chat Divorce podcast, we welcome back Colleen Kowal, LPC of Hilton Head Island Counseling. Colleen is a relationship specialist who believes that what sits at the heart of most problems is a broken relationship. Her private practice specializes in relationship therapy, working with couples to save and end marriages in a way that doesn’t destroy the family’s children and brings insight. She joins us to talk about The Art of Repairing. Repair? I’m getting divorced. There is nothing to repair... There is an art to repairing what is broken, even after divorce with no intention of getting back together. What does require repair is the new post-divorce relationship, especially when the former spouses will be co-parenting.
When you get divorced it doesn’t mean the relationship is over. It is a new beginning. There will still be birthday parties, graduations, weddings, where the family unit will gather.
Sometimes a repair isn’t possible if either person isn’t capable or ready.
If only one parent is ready to repair, be the best example possible.
Consider what behavior you practiced in this relationship – not speaking up, not setting boundaries – that you can begin practicing in the post-divorce relationship and be aware of so that you don’t carry it into your next relationship.
Whether you are thinking of divorce, are in the midst of divorce, or are embarking on your new life after divorce, this episode has something to help you. If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by Midlife Courage Coach Sheree Clark. She shares about moments where she had to choose courage and how you can do it, too. You’ll have another opportunity to learn from Sheree Clark and many other experts (including us!) through an online event called “It’s YOUR Time: Turning the Midlife Crisis into Your Midlife awakening.” Sheree is interviewing all sorts of healthy living experts throughout the month of May. To access this free resource, click here. Our episode airs May 21st. To learn more, visit www.midlife-newlife.com. Have questions or a topic you’d like us to cover in future episodes? Contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this episode of We Chat Divorce, we’re joined by attorney Jessica VanderKam to discuss the importance of being proactive in the divorce process and owning your own destiny. Jessica VanderKam is a partner with the firm Stuckert & Yates, which is based in Newtown, Pennsylvania. She is also a judicial candidate in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Our court system is overburdened. But you can make the most of your time in the courtroom by being as prepared as possible and by managing expectations. Knowledge and a plan will go a long way in helping you own your divorce destiny. That’s also where we come in. Have questions or a topic you’d like us to cover? Contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
What is it like to work with us? In this episode of the We Chat Divorce podcast, one of our clients, Eileen, joins us to describe her experience. She has gone through all three phases of our proprietary program and is now enjoying a life of clarity and confidence. If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this episode of the We Chat Divorce podcast, we’re joined by Charissa Liller, an attorney based in Doylestown, Pennsylvania practicing Family Law with the firm Curtin & Heefner. She began her career as a prosecutor and has been practicing law in Bucks County for over 20 years, with over 15 of those years focused on Family Law. Charissa is also running for Judge in Bucks County. She is seeking to bring experience, empathy, and consistency -- qualities she brings to her family law practice – to the bench in support of families experiencing divorce. Today she joins us for a conversation about guidelines and best practices related to Spousal Support, APL (Alimony Pendente Lite), and Child Support. Highlights include: Support: an Overview
You do not have to be married to file for child support, as long as parents are living in separate households. If the parents are living within the same household, the court requires proof of a need to distinguish financial separation (bills aren’t being paid, utilities being turned off, groceries, certain expenses for the child)
If you are married, you can file for spousal support as long as you’re residing in physically separate residences.
Once you have filed for divorce, spousal support is then called APL.
Spousal Support vs. APL
APL is only when a divorce complaint is filed
With spousal support there’s an entitlement defense; the payor can claim claimant spouse is cheating, but the court requires proof. The remedy is to file a divorce claim, then you can file for APL.
Child Support Orders – What to Know
Extracurricular activities are not addressed in support orders. You can add provisions to the child support order providing both parental parties are agreeable to doing so and to the terms.
Medical expenses are always addressed. However, psychological and psychiatric expenses are not included with medical, so that language must be included as a provision in the order to ensure that expense is covered as a medical expense.
Support orders are always modifiable.
Final Tips:
Work with a CDFA to be clear on what your financial picture is and what it will be.
Don’t file support modifications on your own. Always consult with an attorney. You don’t know what you don’t know is key in divorce.
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
It makes us sad to think of the people who are unhappily married, especially during the holidays. When you are unhappy, you behave in a way that doesn’t allow you to live your best life. You live just waiting for each day to end so a new one can begin. You tend to overlook all the beauty in the world and all the possibilities for a joyous life. You live with envy of others and the life you thought you were supposed to have instead of living with purpose and aspirations of attaining your dreams. We know this firsthand because we felt all of those emotions and more while we were going through our divorces. We also know it doesn’t have to be this way. We also want to caution you to not simply jump into divorce because it’s at the top of your New Year’s Resolutions (right next to the Polar Bear Plunge). Consider these ten insights before taking the plunge toward divorce: It matters where you start. Know your options.
Divorce does not define you.
Believe in yourself because you are enough, and you deserve to be happy.
Bullying is never acceptable, not even in divorce.
Divorce does not mess up your kids, it’s how both parents behave before, during, and after divorce that can mess up your kids!
When negotiating your divorce, know that there is a difference between what is fair and what is equitable.
You are stronger than you think.
Don’t feel guilty for wanting to be happy.
Knowledge in divorce is everything.
You will be OK!
If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Is this your first holiday after your divorce? Getting through all the "firsts" is a challenge. In episode 11 of the We Chat Divorce podcast, Catherine and Karen share their experiences with their first holidays during and after divorce. The emotions, the awkward situations and, ultimately, how they embraced all the opportunity that came with this change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In Episode #10 – Real Solutions with Real Estate, we talk about the realities of making decisions about real estate during divorce. Whether it’s a shared asset you’d prefer to sell or deciding whether to stay in the family home, this episode has solutions. We’re happy to be joined by Hilton Head Island-based realtor, Karen Ryan. You may view the original We Chat Divorce broadcast here. The Unwanted Asset Catherine shares about a recent experience where we were able to work together with another professional to provide a creative solution to end a client’s ongoing stress. In this case it was with our guest for this episode, realtor Karen Ryan: “We had a client who was getting nowhere with her divorce. She was two years into the process, and they were stumped on this rental property that they owned ‘down on a beach somewhere,’ as she explained it to me. She did not want this rental property. She was the bread winner of the family. Her husband wanted this property. But there was really no way out, the attorneys did not know what to do about it. They were going back and forth, but he clearly could not afford it. She had some emotional issues with having it because of things that went wrong in their marriage. So, I said to her, ‘Where is this rental property?’ She said, ‘Hilton Head, South Carolina.’ And I said, ‘As a matter of fact, I’m going there; I know a realtor, I’m going to talk with her, see if she’ll take me there. And then I can evaluate it financially, see if it would be worth while keeping, and maybe we can financially be creative and come up with a solution finally end your divorce.’ That’s when I called today’s guest, Karen Ryan, and told her the situation. She took me through the property, went through everything, and said, ‘We manage properties, so the stress would not have to be on the client.’ We went through the numbers and she gave me a spreadsheet of possible rental income on this property. I went back to Pennsylvania, met with the wife, we went through the numbers, and our client actually started to cry. She said, ‘I can’t believe you have a solution for me. I can’t believe these two years can come to an end, because this could work.’ And I said, ‘Yes, it could. Go back to your attorney and here’s what you should tell them.’ She did. They got divorced. To this day, she’s still renting that property and she’s very happy about it.” So, know that there are ways to think creatively about a financial situation, to take the emotion out of why you think do not want an asset, when the asset can be positive for you financially. It’s so hard to make decisions in the divorce process at any moment, because you’re just so driven by your emotions and everything’s so new and unknown. That’s why we say we’re going to start with knowns and we’re going to keep going from there. The Devil’s in the Deed Details Another thing to consider is making sure everything is correct on the property deed. Even though it seems like a simple transaction, if it gets messed up it can be a reason for litigation later. So, any time you’re wrapping up things after divorce, and you’re ending up with property, make sure you get that deed reviewed by a real estate attorney.
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Divorce is complex. That’s the reality. The good news is, with sound counsel from your professional team, you can still navigate the process with clarity and confidence. In Episode #9 – Complex Divorce, we go behind the scenes with a recent client, answer a question from our audience and learn how to proceed in a complex divorce with our guest, attorney Mary Fran Quindlen of Beaufort, South Carolina-based Quindlen Law Firm, P.A.. You may view the original We Chat Divorce broadcast here.
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This is the audio from our March 2018 episode of We Chat Divorce, which aired in March 2018. You can watch the episode here. In today’s episode, we’re joined by Cecilia Halseth, author of Walking is for Wimps. We had a great time discussing how to start, and keep, a healthy routine throughout a stressful time.
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This episode of the We Chat Divorce Podcast also serves as the debut of our new television program airing on WHHI-TV in Hilton Head, South Carolina. What you’ll hear is the audio from the episode, which you can watch here. In today’s episode, we introduce ourselves to our Hilton Head audience and share our divorce stories. We’re also joined by Colleen Kowal, of Hilton Head Island Counseling. Colleen is a Licensed Professional Counselor with the State of South Carolina and a certified Imago Relationship Therapist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
With many people divorcing later in life, establishing arrangements for elder care has become increasingly important. But what about situations where divorcing couples have special needs children? Our guest, Linda Anderson, a certified elder law attorney, will help us understand how to navigate these issues. Linda is one of approximately 50 certified elder law attorneys in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Her practice, Anderson Elder Law, specializes in the legal issues affecting elders, the disabled, and their families. We are thrilled to have her as a guest for this podcast to help us share the information necessary for families with special needs children who are divorcing to do so with clarity and confidence. The statistics are not clear on whether the risk of divorce increases in families with special needs children. One report states the while the average divorce rate is 50%, the divorce rate for couples with special needs children is 85%. The most common struggle for these couples facing divorce is how to meet the requirements of their special needs children, now and in the future. Your Team of Experts You are likely working with your family attorney as you begin divorce proceedings. You want to ensure that the family law attorney is bringing in a special needs attorney, who has the expertise as it relates to special needs planning and the role of public benefits, and a financial planner, to ensure the structuring of the estate plan for the child is established to determine the rest of the financial settlements. There is an overlap between understanding the public benefits for both seniors and special needs children and the uses of trusts in both cases. It is a body of knowledge that applies not just to people over a certain age but anyone of any age struggling to maintain control of their medical, legal, and financial issues. When caring for the welfare of special needs children – in a divorce situation or not – there must be an understanding of the public entitlements and benefits.
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As we begin episode four of the We Chat Divorce podcast, please remember that divorce does not define you. Yes, it’s part of our stories and it may be a part of your story, but that’s okay. We’re here to share our insight and inspiration, addressing the good stuff and the bad stuff (aka the BS) and hope this podcast will help you move forward in a positive direction. Being Present with Each Other Do you find yourself having a hard time focusing? Does the activity in your life, not to mention in your divorce, have you feeling overwhelmed? It’s a problem we all encounter, especially in our world of instant gratification but disconnecting, especially from social media, is important. Whether you’re a stay-at-home parent, managing the household or you’re working full time, the most important thing you can do for each other – and your marriage - is be present. It’s deeper than putting the cell phones down. Make it a point to have a transition time from work to home and then carve out some time to sit with each other and acknowledge you want to be in each other’s presence. Being married and being a parent is about relationships and if you can’t figure out the relationships, you’re going to have a lot of dysfunction going on. Being present and listening, making that person feel heard and affirmed is so critical to healthy relationships. We all need to slow down, listen more, and be in the moment. Being Present in the Divorce Process Being present throughout the divorce process is a critical skill to develop. You have a lot coming at you all at once – where to live, will the kids be okay, will you have enough money, will you have enough energy to get up and go to work each day, and on and on. Actively being present is a skill that will get you through each step. It may be helpful to start journaling, even if that means you write down each step and focus on them one at a time. This is also true with mediation. If you’re going through divorce as two individuals, each with your own attorney communicating with each other on your behalf, you’re not even in the conversation in the moment. With mediation or a negotiated settlement, you remain present and in the moment about the decisions being made. Literally. You’re there in the room together and you’re able to hear you’re your soon-to-be-ex wants a certain asset or more time with your kids. This process allows you to communicate with each other and, above all else, be heard. It changes how you get divorced for the better. Today’s Takeaways
Use the “24-Hour Panic” Rule: Give yourself time to not think about the issue. Write it down if it helps you. Put it on a to do list. When you come back to it 24 hours later, your perspective may be completely different.
Stop, Drop, and Let Go: Maybe you’re not wired to let something go for 24 hours. Try 10 minutes. Remember the fire prevention phrase, “Stop, drop, and roll?” Tell yourself, “Stop, drop, and let go.” If you feel overwhelmed or you’re not feeling heard, give it that time, that silence. The feeling may go away or you may master it.
Being present helps to set boundaries for yourself and others. It helps to quiet the noise in your head so you can tune into what others are saying. It helps you to focus on one thing at a time. We Welcome Your Feedback Thanks for joining our community. We want to hear about the positive steps you are taking for yourself every day. Be sure to like our Facebook Page and Instagram Page and follow us on Pinterest and Twitter. For more information about who we are and what we do, please visit our website at www.divorceusolutions.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In episode three, we continue our real talk about the world of divorce with a conversation about the realities of co-parenting. Is anyone really ready for that? Co-parenting is always a challenge, for sure, but this podcast will give you practical tools to get through it with your sanity and current marriage intact. Celebrities, They're Just Like Us! With all of the money and resources available to celebrities, it’s easy to presume they sail through co-parenting or relating to an ex’s new significant other. At the end of the day, though, we’re all human and need to think of our children above everything else. Jennifer Garner and Ben Affleck are one example. Jennifer recently took their children on vacation and Ben went along. They stayed in two connecting suites of the same size, so their kids could spend time with both parents. They made it work for them and their children. Ryan Phillipe, who was married to Reese Witherspoon, has said that “You have to get to that point as a divorced parent, as any parent, where you’re not putting yourself first.” Taye Diggs, who is co-parenting his son with singer and actress Idina Menzel, acknowledges this: “When you have a kid in the mix of it there’s no time for negativity.” No matter who you are, put your children first. We get married for a reason, we get divorced for a reason, but there’s never a reason to put your kids in the middle of it. Keeping It Real Co-parenting is complicated by so many things, the emotional residue of the divorce, new significant others or spouses on the scene, and the world of step-parenthood. How can you navigate these relationships, stay focused on the well-being of your children, and stay sane? Know when to pick your battles. Here are a few ways we recommend to keep the peace, and your cool: Drop the Rope Often, you’ll find yourself in an argument with your ex. It could be a timing issue, or whether your children left things at the other’s home, or any number of issues. Instead of participating in this tug of war, simply drop the rope. You’ll feel more mentally free and present for your priority, your children. That’s interesting. This tactic is especially good to use with narcissists. When someone is battling head-to-head, and no matter what you say, you will never be “right” in his or her eyes? Just say “That’s interesting,” and leave it at that. It’s not worth the stress it will cause you or your children. 24 Hour Panic Rule Things happen. The threat of court, an ex is late picking up your children. Whatever it is, give yourself 24 hours to not even think about it. Give yourself time to breathe. Often, whatever it is will resolve itself, or you’ll have a fresh perspective. How do you know these tactics are working? React to the reactions of your children. If your child is happy and doing fine, that’s what it’s all about. Talk about it together so your child can feel secure. When It’s All Said and Done It’s hard to co-parent through a divorce. Stay engaged, try to better yourself. Be there for the kids, and you’ll all grow and develop together. Give Us Your Feedback The hardest part for us is not hearing your voices. Please give us your feedback, your comments, your questions. Let us know in the comments section below this recording. Be sure to like our Facebook Page and Instagram Page and follow us on Pinterest and Twitter. For more information about who we are and what we do, please visit our website at www.divorceusolutions.com. And remember we know divorce is never easy, and your life may be changing. Change can be good! We want you to know – you are not alone, and you will be ok. We’ll talk to you soon. We chat because you matter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
The We Chat Divorce Podcast brings you conversations about real people, real situations and real divorce. We’re Karen Chellew, paralegal and business manager, and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA (Certified Divorce Financial Analyst). We’re co-founders of Divorce U Solutions, where we work with clients to navigate the often complex and confusing process of divorce. We’re here to share our personal and professional experiences to demystify the big business of divorce. This podcast is time for you to gain clarity and even have a laugh or two. First up, what we wish we had known as we went through our divorces. For more information about who we are and what we do, please visit our website at www.mydivorceusolution.com, like us on Facebook and follow us on Instagram. Welcome to our community! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices