Admissions Straight Talk: Recent Episodes
Linda Abraham
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What do you do when your transcript tells a story you would rather not tell? In this episode of Accepted’s Admissions Straight Talk podcast, host Dr. Valerie Wherley is joined by Dr. Rachel Slutsky, an Accepted admissions consultant and Harvard PhD, to discuss one of the most common – and most feared – obstacles in the graduate admissions process: a problematic academic record.
Dr. Slutsky draws on her background as a university writing tutor and professor to reframe how applicants think about academic setbacks. The conversation moves through three categories of challenges she commonly sees in her work: ethical issues, emotional and psychological struggles, and maturity gaps. She also addresses the often-overlooked role of financial hardship in academic performance.
The episode is practical throughout. Dr. Slutsky and Dr. Wherley discuss where in your application to address your academic record, how much space to give it in a statement of purpose, and why self-awareness – not shame – is the quality that resonates with adcoms. They cover how to demonstrate help-seeking behaviors, professional growth, and determination when the numbers on your transcript do not tell your whole story.
The conversation closes with an invitation: If you have been avoiding applying to graduate school because of your academic record, Dr. Slutsky wants to hear from you.
00:00 Welcoming Dr. Rachel Slutsky to the Podcast
02:53 Defining a Problematic Academic Record
04:28 Three Sources of Issues: Ethical, Emotional, and Maturity
07:11 Financial Hardship and the Hidden Story Behind Transcripts
09:35 Should You Even Apply? Don’t Write Off Grad School Prematurely
10:43 Addressing Academic Issues in a Statement of Purpose
13:41 Self-Awareness Over Shame: Own It, Show Growth, Move Forward
16:05 The Holistic Review Process: Highlighting Your Strengths
19:27 Demonstrating Help-Seeking Behaviors as Evidence of Growth
Related Resources:
- Dr. Rachel Slutsky bio
- Sign up for a free consultation with Dr. Rachel Slutsky
Related Episodes:
- How to Get Selected for a Fulbright and Other Competitive Fellowships [Episode 624]
- Is There Such a Thing as Too Many Drafts? Writing a Standout Med School Personal Statement [Episode 612]
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What exactly is—and isn’t—a DO? And what does it take to get into a Tier 1 primary care medical school that operates across two very different campuses?
In this episode of Accepted’s Admissions Straight Talk, host Dr. Valerie Wherley sits down with the leadership and a current student from the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (COMP) at Western University of Health Sciences. Dr. Lisa Warren, the dean and a COMP graduate; Dr. Marcel Fraix, associate dean for admissions and also a COMP graduate; TJ Pe, assistant director of recruitment; and Sarah Shirley, a rising second-year COMP DO student, walk listeners through what makes this program distinctive.
The conversation covers the school’s two-campus structure—urban Pomona, California, and rural Lebanon, Oregon—and how the shared curriculum delivers a consistent experience in two very different environments. COMP has now earned U.S. News & World Report’s Tier 1 recognition for primary care training for three consecutive years, and the panel breaks down why that matters for applicants.
Sarah shares her nontraditional path: a literature degree, a career in book publishing, a mid-20s pivot, and what drew her to osteopathic medicine specifically. The panel also discusses COMP’s longitudinal student tracks (business, rural health, sports medicine, and more), the technology-infused curriculum including simulation and AI exposure, and the robust student wellness infrastructure—from free yoga to open-door faculty.
For applicants concerned about GPA and MCAT thresholds, Dr. Fraix and TJ offer a candid, encouraging reality check on holistic admissions and the one-year master’s program that creates a pathway for promising candidates who don’t yet meet full admission requirements.
Related Resources:
- College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (COMP) at Western University of Health Sciences
- Experience WesternU (preview day): August 22, 2026
- Dr. Lisa Warren, dean, Western University of Health Sciences COMP and COMP-Northwest: lwarren@westernu.edu
- Dr. Marcel Fraix, associate dean, admissions and enrollment chair, professor of physical medicine and rehabilitation: mfraix@westernu.edu
- TJ Pe, assistant director of recruitment: pet@westernu.edu
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What does it take to get selected for a Fulbright or Boren Fellowship? In this episode of Accepted’s Admissions Straight Talk podcast, host Dr. Valerie Wherley sits down with Steven Tagle, an Accepted admissions consultant and fellowship specialist, to break down two of the most prestigious, and most misunderstood, awards in graduate education.
Steven draws on his own journey: a Stanford undergraduate, an MFA funded by a Paul & Daisy Soros Fellowship, a Fulbright that turned into eight years in Greece, and a second writing fellowship from the Institute of Current World Affairs (ICWA). Today, he helps applicants navigate the entire fellowship landscape, from “fellowship matchmaking” to final interviews.
The conversation covers the structure and purpose of the Fulbright U.S. Student Program, including the differences between Study/Research Awards and English Teaching Assistant Awards, and how country-specific requirements shape a successful application. Steven also makes a case for the Boren Awards, an often-overlooked option with acceptance rates as high as 40%, a service requirement, and language study built in.
Whether you are a college senior, a graduate student, or a professional considering funded study or research abroad, this episode offers a clear, practical foundation for approaching some of the most competitive awards available.
00:00 Introducing Steven Tagle
01:03 Steven’s Path: Stanford, Soros, Fulbright, and ICWA
02:36 What Exactly Is a Fellowship?
04:09 How Fellowship Selection Advice Works
05:52 Inside the Fulbright U.S. Student Program
10:33 Study/Research vs. English Teaching Assistant Awards
12:08 Why the Boren Awards Are Often Overlooked
14:32 When to Start Preparing a Fellowship Application
17:54 How to Submit the Most Competitive Application
19:30 Closing Thoughts and How to Work with Steven
Related Resources:
- Steven Tagle bio
- Accepted’s Fellowship Consulting Services
- Fulbright U.S. Student Program (U.S. Department of State)
- Boren Awards (National Security Education Program)
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This episode of Admissions Straight Talk covers what it takes to get accepted into the top-ranked Entry-Level Doctorate of Occupational Therapy (OTD) program at the USC Chan Division of Occupational Science and Occupational Therapy. Host Dr. Valerie Wherley speaks with Dr. Amber Bennett, associate professor of clinical occupational therapy at USC Chan, to break down how the occupational therapy (OT) field has shifted and what makes the school’s top-ranked curriculum stand out. This episode is especially valuable for OT school applicants seeking a competitive edge in the graduate admissions process.
Dr. Bennett highlights the division’s historic commitment to clinical innovation, its extensive experiential learning partnerships, and the vast professional power of the global USC Trojan alumni network. Listeners will discover how the unique 14-week doctoral capstone allows students to complete their final year remotely while translating cutting-edge clinical research into direct healthcare advocacy and community action.
For future applicants, Dr. Bennett delivers essential, hands-on strategies for mastering the program-specific prompts within the Occupational Therapist Centralized Application Service (OTCAS) application portal. Listeners will gain concrete insights into how to build a highly structured and reflective personal narrative, how to strategically select recommenders who can share character-driven examples, and how the USC Chan admissions committee evaluates applicants using a holistic review framework.
00:00 Introducing Dr. Amber Bennett, Associate Professor at USC Chan
00:39 The Evolution of Occupational Therapy and the Shift to the OTD Program
04:19 Why USC Chan Is the Nation’s Top-Ranked OT Program
08:39 Hands-On Learning, Fieldwork, and Student Experiences
12:15 Where Occupational Therapists Work: Traditional and Emerging Career Paths
14:44 Inside USC Chan’s 14-Week Doctoral Capstone
17:34 Application Essays: How to Answer USC Chan’s Prompts Effectively
20:05 What Makes a Competitive OTD Application?
24:13 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Final Advice for Applicants
Related Resources:
- Dr. Amber Bennett bio
- USC Chan Department of Occupational Science and Occupational Therapy
- USC Chan Entry-Level Doctorate of Occupational Therapy (OTD) degree program
- Extracurricular Activities Can Help You Get Accepted to Graduate Therapy Programs
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What should applicants know about WashU Medicine’s Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT) program?
In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Valerie Wherley speaks with Dr. Steven Ambler – professor of physical therapy and orthopaedic surgery, division director of education, and DPT program director at WashU Medicine – about the program’s curriculum, culture, student support, research opportunities, and admissions process.
Dr. Ambler explains how WashU integrates early clinical experience into the curriculum, why the program emphasizes collaboration over competition, and how faculty coaching helps support students throughout their training. He also shares how the admissions committee evaluates applicants holistically and what qualities make an application stand out.
If you’re considering physical therapy school and want an inside look at one of the country’s most respected DPT programs, this episode offers practical guidance and useful perspective.
00:00 WashU Medicine DPT Program Overview
01:22 Why the WashU DPT Program is Top-Ranked
04:08 Early Integrated Clinical Experience
07:05 Alumni Preceptors and Clinical Placements
07:53 Student Support, Collaboration, and Coaching
13:20 Research Opportunities for DPT Students
17:42 Holistic Admissions Review at WashU
21:53 What Makes a Competitive WashU DPT Applicant
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This episode of Admissions Straight Talk covers the essential strategies for overcoming rejection and successfully reapplying to physician assistant (PA) programs. In this episode, host Dr. Valerie Wherley speaks with Cassandra Zoetjes, a first-generation college student and current PA student at Sacred Heart University who successfully navigated three application cycles. Cassandra shares how she transformed her candidacy by pursuing a master’s in nutrition at Columbia University and diversifying her clinical experiences as a scribe and a medical assistant.
This conversation is especially valuable for reapplicants facing an unsuccessful cycle or those considering a graduate degree to bolster their academic profile. Cassandra provides a transparent look at the emotional toll of the “drinking from a fire hose” aspect of PA school and the importance of maintaining a healthy work-life balance. Her story serves as a road map for applicants who need to add depth to their writing and medical knowledge.
Listeners will gain concrete insights into these topics:
- How a specialized master’s degree can demonstrate academic rigor
- The benefit of diversifying patient care experience across specialties
- Strategies for crafting a resilient mindset and an honest personal statement
- What to expect in a PA curriculum
0:00 Introducing the Journey to PA School
1:06 Meet Cassandra: First-Gen Student Success
2:11 Choosing the PA Profession
3:39 Navigating Three PA Application Cycles
4:52 Strengthening Your GPA With a Master’s Degree
7:28 Diversifying Clinical and Volunteer Experience
9:58 Surviving the PA School Curriculum
11:47 Leadership and Student Government Opportunities in PA School
13:04 Advice for Reapplicants and Future PAs
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What does it take to maximize your premed shadowing opportunity, and why does this experience matter so much in your application?
In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Valerie Wherley speaks with Dr. Rachel L. Schreiber, a board-certified allergist/immunologist and former president of the Greater Washington Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology Society. Recognized as a “Top Doctor” by Washingtonian magazine, Bethesda Magazine, and Washington Consumers’ Checkbook, Dr. Schreiber shares practical advice on finding shadowing opportunities, keeping a journal, and asking the right questions.
Additionally, Dr. Wherley and Dr. Schreiber address the nonnegotiable topic of patient confidentiality. From HIPAA requirements, to what you can safely write about in your application essays, to the risks of discussing patients on social media, the bottom line is this: you must conduct yourself with professionalism from the moment you walk in the clinic, including after you walk out. If you are preparing to apply to medical school, this episode will change how you think about every hour you spend shadowing.
0:00 Meet Dr. Rachel L. Schreiber
0:30 Finding and Securing Premed Shadowing Opportunities
3:14 The Real Purpose of Shadowing Before Med School
4:23 Why You Should Keep a Shadowing Journal
7:08 Asking Questions and Choosing Specialties
13:25 Patient Privacy and HIPAA
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What does it take to stand out and become a competitive applicant to Touro University California College of Osteopathic Medicine (TUCOM), and what makes this program unique among osteopathic medical schools?
In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted consultant and podcast host Dr. Valerie Wherley speaks with Dr. Alesia Wagner, associate dean of academic affairs at TUCOM. Together, they explore how the school’s mission shapes its curriculum, how its 100% residency match rate reflects the breadth of specialty opportunities available to students, and how TUCOM’s approach to clinical education prepares future osteopathic physicians for a wide range of medical careers.
If you are researching osteopathic medical schools or preparing your application, this conversation provides valuable insight into what sets TUCOM apart and what it takes to be a competitive applicant.
0:00 Meet Dr. Alesia Wagner, Associate Dean of Academic Affairs at TUCOM
0:42 Overview of Touro University California College of Osteopathic Medicine
4:56 Residency Match Data: Specialties and Outcomes
6:50 Clinical Rotation Sites and Student Placement at TUCOM
9:53 Primary Care vs. Specialty Matches: Breaking the Pigeonhole Myth
11:13 TUCOM’s Pre-Clinical Electives and the Clinical Distinction Program
16:34 Culinary Medicine and Nutrition Education Electives
19:56 Interprofessional Education and the Student-Run Free Clinic
23:53 What Makes a Competitive Applicant
29:11 Life on TUCOM’s Campus in Northern California
Related Resources
- Bio for Dr. Alesia Wagner
- Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine
- Touro’s Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment Clinic at Middletown
- TUCOM Academics
Related Episodes
- How to Get into MSU’s College of Osteopathic Medicine [Episode 537]
- The Bryn Mawr Postbac Premed Program [Episode 614]
- Is There Such a Thing as Too Many Drafts? Writing a Standout Med School Personal Statement [Episode 612]
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What does Baylor College of Medicine look for in applicants, and how is its program evolving to meet the needs of today’s medical students?
In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Dr. Valerie Wherley speaks with Dr. Jesus Vallejo, senior associate dean of admissions at Baylor College of Medicine. Together, they explore Baylor’s dual-campus model, early clinical exposure, innovative curriculum, and extensive mentorship opportunities.
Dr. Vallejo also shares how Baylor College of Medicine evaluates applicants holistically and what distinguishes those who stand out in a highly competitive pool.
If you’re applying to medical school or considering Baylor, this episode offers valuable insights to guide your strategy.
00:00 Baylor College of Medicine Overview
00:30 Baylor College of Medicine: Houston versus Temple Campus Experience
02:10 In-State versus Out-of-State Admissions at Baylor College of Medicine
04:10 Early Patient Exposure at Baylor College of Medicine
06:10 Baylor College of Medicine’s Modern Curriculum and Learning Style
10:10 Research Requirements for Baylor College of Medicine Applicants
14:25 Baylor College of Medicine’s Mentorship and Student Support Programs
20:10 Baylor College of Medicine’s HEAL Program and Humanities in Medicine
24:05 What Baylor College of Medicine Looks for in Applicants
25:50 Final Advice for Medical School Applicants
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Dr. Valerie Wherley welcomes Dr. Rona Woldenberg, associate dean for admissions and interim associate dean of student affairs at the Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell.
Dr. Woldenberg explains how the school’s unique partnership with Northwell Health provides students with consistent clinical training opportunities and a dynamic learning environment. The conversation highlights Zucker’s rapid rise as a top-tier research institution and explores the innovative educational model that emphasizes hands-on experience from the very beginning of medical school.
One of the school’s most distinctive features is its EMT training program, in which first-year medical students become licensed EMTs during their first nine weeks and participate in real emergency response scenarios. Dr. Woldenberg also discusses the school’s commitment to inclusive education, cultural humility in patient care, and the importance of collaboration in modern medicine.
Finally, she shares what the admissions committee looks for in successful applicants – including curiosity, resilience, teamwork, and a growth mindset.
If you’re considering applying to medical school – or simply want insight into how innovative programs are shaping physician training – this episode offers valuable guidance.
00:00 Introduction
00:33 The Founding of the Zucker School of Medicine
04:05 Zucker School of Medicine Admissions Stats and Growing Applicant Interest
07:59 Research Reputation and National Rankings
11:21 Building an Inclusive Medical School Environment and Cultural Humility in the Curriculum
16:32 EMT Training During the First Nine Weeks and Mass Casualty Incident Day Simulation
21:00 Student Feedback on the EMT Experience
23:42 What the Zucker School of Medicine Looks for in Applicants
27:18 Final Advice for Prospective Applicants
Related Resources
- Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell
- Dr. Rona Woldenberg bio
- Medical School Secondary Essay Tips
- A Strategic Guide for Applying to Medical School
Related Episodes
- Inside the University of Miami’s Three-Year M.D. Accelerated Pathway [Episode 615]
- The Bryn Mawr Postbac Premed Program [Episode 614]
- Inside UMass Chan: How Wellness, Community, and Leadership Shape Future Physicians [Episode 611]
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Applying to law school and wondering how admissions decisions really get made? In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted Law Consultant Brigitte talks with Sophia Sim, associate dean for admissions and financial aid at the George Washington University Law School (GW Law), about what applicants need to know – from rolling admissions timelines and waitlists to scholarships, LSAT-optional pathways, and professional etiquette. With decades of experience in law school admissions, Sophia offers clear, honest advice to help applicants make smarter decisions throughout the cycle.
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:43 The Challenges of Law School Admissions
05:10 Understanding the GW Law Admissions Process
08:26 The GW Law Waitlist Process Explained
10:58 Navigating the GW Law Personal Statement
13:51 LSAT Optional: Who Should Consider It?
16:37 GW Law Part-Time Program Insights
19:15 Final Thoughts and Advice
Resources
- Sophia Sim bio
- GW Law JD Admissions
- Law School Admissions Calculator, a free tool
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- How to Get into George Washington School of Law, Episode 584
- Get Accepted to Cornell School of Law, Episode 590
- How to Get into Washington University in St. Louis School of Law, Episode 579
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Can you earn an MD in three years without sacrificing training quality? In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Valerie Wherley sits down with Dr. Jonathan Tolentino to explore the University of Miami’s three-year Accelerated Pathway to Residency Program.
Learn how the program works, who it’s designed for, how clinical immersion and scholarly projects are integrated, and what admissions committees look for in competitive applicants. Dr. Tolentino also explains residency outcomes, specialty options, and the safety net for students who need to return to the four-year track.
A must-listen for applicants weighing accelerated MD programs.
00:00 Overview of the University of Miami 3-Year Accelerated MD Program
03:05 Accelerated MD Curriculum Structure & Integrated Coursework
05:50 Clinical Training, Longitudinal Experience & Research Opportunities
08:35 Residency Match Outcomes & Specialty Pathways for Accelerated MD Students
11:13 Logistics, Timeline & Student Considerations in a 3-Year MD Program
13:54 How Competitive Is the UMiami Accelerated MD Program? Admissions Insights
25:11 Is the University of Miami 3-Year Accelerated MD Program Right for You?
Related Resources
- Dr. Jonathan Tolentino bio
- For more information on the University of Miami’s Accelerated Pathway, contact
- Dr. Tolentino at jxt1084@med.miami.edu
- Erica Simms at esimms@med.miami.edu
- University of Miami Miller School of Medicine Three-Year M.D. Accelerated Pathway
- Medical School Secondary Essay Tips
- A Strategic Guide for Applying to Medical School
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- Is There Such a Thing as Too Many Drafts? Writing a Standout Med School Personal Statement [Episode 612]
- How to Apply Successfully to Med School from Postbac Programs [Episode 526]
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Valerie Wherley welcomes Dr. Glenn Cummings, associate dean and director of health professions advising at Bryn Mawr, for an in-depth look at one of the nation’s oldest and most respected career-changer post-bac pathways. Dr. Cummings explains the distinctive mission and history of the Postbaccalaureate Premedical Program – founded in 1972 at Bryn Mawr College – and clarifies what truly defines a “career changer” in the post-bac world. He walks listeners through the program’s rigorous 12-month curriculum – including the accelerated summer chemistry sequence and the full-time fall and spring science load – while also outlining how Bryn Mawr supports students through intensive academic advising, structured MCAT preparation, and opportunities for clinical volunteering, research, and service.
Dr. Cummings also highlights the program’s unique advantages, such as its extensive network of medical school linkage partnerships, its individualized W.I.S.E. advising model, and its robust alumni mentoring system. In addition, he discusses what the admissions committee looks for in competitive applicants: strong academic performance, demonstrated motivation for medicine, a history of service, and the maturity to thrive in a tight-knit, collaborative cohort.
Whether you’re a true career changer, a recent graduate ready to pivot toward medicine, or simply exploring structured post-bac options, this episode offers valuable insights into how Bryn Mawr prepares students not only for the application process but also for success in medical school and beyond.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:35 History of the Bryn Mawr Postbac Premed Program
01:47 Defining a Career Changer vs. Academic Enhancer
02:08 Who the Program Is Designed For
05:05 Curriculum Overview and 12-Month Structure
07:19 Unique Features of the Bryn Mawr Postbac
07:25 Medical School Linkage Programs
09:45 W.I.S.E. Advising Model and Alumni Mentorship
12:17 Preparing Students for Med School Applications
14:10 Clinical Volunteering, Research, and Service
17:15 What Makes a Competitive Bryn Mawr Applicant
21:40 Letters of Recommendation and Applicant Evaluation
23:50 Final Advice
Related Resources
- Dr. Glenn Cummings contact information
- Bryn Mawr Postbac Program email: postbac@brynmawr.edu
- The Basics of Postbac Programs: What You Need to Know
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- How to Apply Successfully to Med School from Postbac Programs [Episode 526]
- The Fastest Way to Medical School Is Slowly: Avoiding Early Premed Mistakes [Episode 608]
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Dr. Valerie Wherley sits down with Dr. Reynold Jaglal, program director of the Sacred Heart University Master of Science in Physician Assistant Studies (MSPAS) program, for an in-depth look at Sacred Heart’s values-focused approach to physician assistant (PA) education. Dr. Jaglal breaks down the program’s 27-month curriculum, including its team-taught didactic model, hands-on clinical rotations, and distinctive international clinical opportunities in Ireland and Spain.
He also shares what makes Sacred Heart’s primary care–focused training unique, such as its required orthopedics rotation, and provides clear, practical advice for PA school applicants on demonstrating their fit with the school’s mission, communicating their personal values, and explaining their academic challenges. Whether you’re preparing to apply, exploring clinical programs, or curious about global PA education, this episode offers a thoughtful, insider perspective.
00:00 Welcome to the Admissions Straight Talk podcast
00:35 Welcome our guest, Dr. Reynold Jaglal
00:55 The PA program at Sacred Heart University
02:07 PA program curriculum and faculty
06:01 International training opportunities
09:15 Clinical phase
12:41 Dual degree: Bachelor's-MS in Physician Assistant Studies (BS-MSPAS)
15:42 Growing interest in the PA degree
17:35 How to create a competitive PA application
Related Resources:
- Dr. Reynold Jaglal contact information
- Sacred Heart University Master of Science in Physician Assistant Studies
- Sacred Heart University Bachelor’s–MS in Physician Assistant Studies
- The Ultimate Guide to Becoming a Physician Assistant, a free Accepted guide
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- How to Get Accepted to Duke’s Physician Assistant Program [Episode 591]
- How to Get into Physician Assistant Programs [Episode 515]
- Inside the Emory PA Program: Admissions, Curriculum, and Keys to Success [Episode 603]
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Dr. Valerie Wherley sits down with Accepted Admissions Consultant Alicia Nimonkar, an expert writing coach with a background in composition and rhetoric, to unpack one of the most important – and often most intimidating – parts of the medical school application: the personal statement. Alicia explains how applicants can use the AAMC’s premed competencies as a framework to craft authentic, focused narratives that highlight their strengths. From creating a timeline of formative experiences to developing an outline that connects recurring themes, she shares how to identify what makes your story uniquely yours – and how to make it resonate with admissions committees.
Alicia also offers practical insight into the writing process itself: how many drafts it really takes, when to stop editing, and how to avoid the “too many cooks in the kitchen” trap of excessive feedback. She and Dr. Wherley discuss the power of resilience, effort, and voice – exploring how applicants can address challenges without sounding apologetic and how to write from a place of strength and advocacy. Whether you’re starting your first draft or polishing your final version, this episode will help you approach your personal statement with clarity, confidence, and purpose.
Related Resources
- AAMC The Premed Competencies for Entering Medical Students
- Mindsets: A View From Two Eras
- The Obstacle Is the Way
- Alicia Nimonkar bio and contact information
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- The Fastest Way to Medical School Is Slowly: Avoiding Early Premed Mistakes [Episode 608]
- How to Overcome the Biggest Weaknesses in Med School Applications [Episode 605]
- Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond [Episode 523]
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In this inspiring episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Dr. Valerie Wherley sits down with Dr. Tracy Kedian, professor of family medicine and associate dean of admissions at UMass Chan Medical School. Together, they explore how UMass Chan fosters not only academic excellence but also personal growth, leadership, and wellness among its medical students.
Dr. Kedian discusses how programs such as WIN (“what I need”) Week and the Vista Curriculum create a supportive environment where students learn to lead with compassion and resilience. She also highlights the school’s emphasis on community engagement—from the Worcester campus to the Population-based Urban and Rural Community Health (PURCH) track in Springfield—and the critical importance of understanding the diverse communities physicians serve.
Listeners will gain insight into how UMass Chan’s holistic approach prepares future doctors to thrive in medicine while maintaining their well-being and purpose. Whether you’re an aspiring physician or advising premed students, this episode offers an authentic look at a medical school that truly “walks the talk” of student support and community-driven medicine.
Related Resources
- UMass Chan Medical School
- Vista Curriculum
- PURCH track
- LEAD@Lahey track
- Morningside University
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- The Fastest Way to Medical School Is Slowly: Avoiding Early Premed Mistakes [Episode 608]
- How to Overcome the Biggest Weaknesses in Med School Applications [Episode 605]
- How Many Med Schools Should You Apply To? [Episode 607]
- Tuft’s MS in Biomedical Sciences: Your Pathway to Med School? [Episode 535]
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What happens when you combine medicine, business, and technology? The cross-disciplinary Master of Science in Clinical Informatics Management degree at Stanford University combines all three of these disciplines. Over the course of just 12 months, students gain the skills to implement cutting-edge technologies, strengthen core business and leadership capabilities, and apply innovative solutions to mee the needs of diverse populations. In this episode of the Admissions Straight Talk podcast, Accepted medical school expert Dr. Valerie Wherley is joined by Dr. Kevin Schulman, Professor of Medicine at Stanford University and program director, to discuss the Stanford MCIM program. Dr. Wherley and Dr. Schulman they talk about tackling big problems in healthcare, why the MCiM degree was created, who the program is right for, and the options MCIM students have for their capstone project.
Learn more about the Master of Science in Clinical Informatics Management program here: https://med.stanford.edu/content/sm/master-clinical-informatics-management.html/
00:00 Welcome to the Admissions Straight Talk podcast
00:49 How (and why) the MCIM degree was created
02:05 Cross-disciplinary approach
04:01 Who is the MCiM program right for?
06:04 ROI and marketable skills
08:50 Capstone project options
12:56 The Stanford design process
14:32 MCiM application timeline and scholarship options
15:39 The importance of letters of recommendation
16:20 What makes an MCiM applicant stand out
Related Resources
- Dr. Kevin Schulman biography
- Stanford MCiM program information
- Stanford University Knight-Hennessy Scholars program
- Five Tips for Applying for Stanford’s Knight-Hennessy Scholarship
Related Episodes
- Transitioning from the Military to an MBA at Stanford GSB [Episode 471]
- What These Seasoned Startup Founders Have Done Since Earning Their Stanford MBAs [Episode 382]
- Stanford MBA Grows His Amazing Tech Startup [Episode 369]
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Send us your admissions questions!
If you are a medical school reapplicant, tune in for today's episode of the Admissions Straight Talk podcast! Accepted medical school expert Dr. Valerie Wherley is joined by Mory Gould, current M1 medical student and former Accepted client who worked with Valerie when reapplying to medical school. Mory discusses the med school application process, the weaknesses he identified in his profile after not receiving any acceptances, and how he and Valerie made his second application cycle a success. If you are applying to med school -- for the first time OR the second time -- this episode is full of valuable advice.
00:00 Welcome to the Admissions Straight Talk podcast
00:29 Welcome to our guest, Mory Gould
01:36 Mory's first application cycle
04:22 Weaknesses in the first application
05:16 The importance of patient care experience
07:56 Second application cycle and results
08:50 Advice for med school reapplicants
11:25 Vulnerability and openness to feedback
Related Resources
- Mory Gould contact information: morygould@gmail.com
- Dr. Valerie Wherley bio and contact information
- Healthcare Experience vs. Patient Care Experience... What’s the Difference?, Accepted YouTube video
- UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine Secondary Application Essay Tips and Timeline [2025–2026], Class Profile
- The Importance of Extracurricular Activities for Medical School Applications
Related Episodes
- The Fastest Way to Medical School Is Slowly: Avoiding Early Premed Mistakes [Episode 608]
- How Many Med Schools Should You Apply To? [Episode 607]
- How to Overcome the Biggest Weaknesses in Med School Applications [Episode 605]
- Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond [Episode 523]
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In this episode of the Admissions Straight Talk podcast, Dr. Valerie Wherley is joined by Accepted medical school consultant Dr. Barry Rothman. Valerie and Barry discuss some of the common mistakes that pre-med students make early on in their journey to medical school. Barry shares his thoughts on undergraduates majors, osteopathic medical schools, and the best types of patient-facing experience. If you are an undergraduate student planning to apply to medical school, you won't want to miss this episode!
00:00 Welcome to the Admissions Straight Talk podcast
00:58 Welcoming Dr. Barry Rothman
01:20 Errors pre-meds make in their approach to med school
02:58 Academics and prerequisites
05:46 How important is your undergraduate major?
07:38 Electives, clinical experience, and research
09:54 Tips for gaining clinical experience
15:34 Letters of recommendation
16:50 Osteopathic medical schools
18:53 Closing advice for pre-meds
Related Resources
- Dr. Barry Rothman bio and contact information
- Retaking Classes for Med School: What Every Premed Needs to Know
- Premed Confidential: The Wisdom of Journaling
- The Basics of Postbac Programs: What You Need to Know
Related Episodes
- How to Overcome the Biggest Weaknesses in Med School Applications [Episode 605]
- Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond [Episode 523]
- Inside the Emory PA Program: Admissions, Curriculum, and Keys to Success [Episode 603]
- Inside Pitt Med School: Innovations in Medical Education [Episode 602]
- Inside Geisinger Med School Admissions with Dr. Michelle Schmude [Episode 600]
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The Admissions Straight Talk podcast is back with a fresh look, and new host! After retiring this summer, Accepted founder Linda Abraham turned the podcast reigns over to Accepted admissions expert Dr. Valerie Wherley. In this week's episode, Valerie talks with Dr. Herman "Flash" Gordon, Accepted medical school consultant and former admissions committee chair at the University of Arizona College of Medicine. Valerie and Flash discuss a question we hear almost daily from medical school applicants: How many med schools should I apply to? They discuss target ranges, the importance of fit, and the truth about "reach schools" and "safety schools."
00:00 Welcome to the Admissions Straight Talk podcast
00:37 Welcome Dr. Herman "Flash" Gordon
02:13 How many med schools should you apply to?
03:25 The importance of fit
06:02 School choice: Beyond GPA and MCAT scores
10:08 Alignment with school's missions
12:49 Reach, attainable, and safety schools
Related Resources
- Medical School Selectivity Index, a free tool
- Medical School Secondary Essay Tips
- Schedule a free consultation with Dr. Gordon
Related Shows
- How to Overcome the Biggest Weaknesses in Med School Applications [Episode 605]
- Inside Pitt Med School: Innovations in Medical Education [Episode 602]
- Navigating Admissions at the University of Washington School of Medicine [Episode 601]
- Inside Geisinger Med School Admissions with Dr. Michelle Schmude [Episode 600]
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In her final episode as host of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted founder Linda Abraham shares reflections and lessons from over 30 years in the admissions world. As she prepares for retirement, Linda offers a mix of personal insight, practical advice, and hard-earned wisdom on navigating both graduate admissions and life’s challenges. She discusses stress, imposter syndrome, setbacks, and the power of resilience, encouraging listeners to take control of their future, own their story, and pursue their goals with determination. Whether you’re just beginning your admissions journey or reevaluating your path, Linda’s final message is one of growth and possibility.
Related Resources
- Free consultation
- Accepted’s Free Guides
- Accepted’s Sample Essays
Related Podcast Episodes
- The Unbelievable Story of an Orthopedic Surgeon, podcast Episode 136
- Ida Valentine: Investment Banker, Inspirational Speaker, HBS 2021, podcast Episode 311
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In the 605th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Barry Rothman, current Accepted consultant and former Health Professions Advisor and Director of San Francisco State University’s Pre-Health Professions Certificate Program, joins Linda Abraham to explore how med school applicants can overcome common application weaknesses. From low GPAs and MCAT scores to limited clinical experience, research, or community service, Dr. Rothman shares practical strategies for strengthening your candidacy and making smart, mission-aligned school selections. The episode also covers sensitive topics like academic infractions, mental health challenges, and the importance of timing and fit. Whether you’re reapplying or just beginning your journey, this conversation is packed with expert advice to help you stand out.
Related Links
- Med School Admissions Quiz
- Dr. Barry Rothman Bio
- Applying to Medical School with Low Stats: What You Need to Know
- Medical School Selectivity Index
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond
- Inside the Emory PA Program: Admissions, Curriculum, and Keys to Success
- Inside Pitt Med School: Innovations in Medical Education
- Inside Geisinger Med School Admissions
- Accepted: Your Guide to CU School of Medicine
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In this episode of Admission Straight Talk, Linda Abraham interviews Dr. Christy Bozic, the Executive Director of Duke University's Masters of Engineering Management (MEM) program. They discuss the unique aspects of the MEM program, including its focus on blending technical engineering skills with business acumen, the differences between online and in-person formats, and the importance of professionalism in engineering management. Dr. Bozic shares insights into the admissions process, the challenges faced by online students, and the incorporation of AI into the curriculum. The conversation also touches on the new co-op program and future directions for the MEM program.
Takeaways
- Duke's MEM program is one of the oldest and largest in the field.
- The program aims to equip engineers with business skills.
- Online and in-person programs share core courses but differ in delivery.
- Residency requirements enhance networking and community building for online students.
- Time management is a key challenge for online students.
- Professionalism is emphasized through five core principles.
- The admissions process is the same for both online and in-person programs.
- Video introductions help applicants showcase their personality.
- AI is integrated into the curriculum to prepare students for future challenges.
- The new co-op program offers practical experience opportunities for students.
Relevant Resources:
- Dukes’ Masters of Engineering Management (MEM)
- Applying to Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know
- How to Get Accepted to Graduate Engineering Programs
- How to Write Your Master's in Engineering Statement of Purpose
- Admissions Straight Talk Ranks in Feedspot Higher Ed Podcast Ranking
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes:
- Duke's Master of Engineering Management
- Stanford’s MCiM Combines Technology, Healthcare, and Business
- Berkeley Haas' Master of Financial Engineering Program
- What’s New at Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management
- All You Need To Know When
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, the Assistant Professor and Director of Admissions at the Emory University Physician Assistant Program, Allan Platt, offers an insightful look into the Emory University’s Physician Assistant Program. He breaks down the program's distinctive curriculum, including its unique approach to anatomy, and shares valuable advice for prospective students. Allan dives into Emory's PA program admissions process, emphasizing the importance of clinical experience, community service, and thoughtful personal narratives. He also explains the blinded Multiple Mini Interview (MMI) format and highlights common mistakes applicants should avoid.
Relevant Links
- Emory Physicia Assistant Program
- The Ultimate Guide to Becoming a Physician Assistant
- CASPA: Everything You Need to Know about the Experiences Section
- How to Get Accepted to Physician Assistant (PA) Programs
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- How To Get Accepted To Duke’s Physician Assistant Program
- How to Get into Physician Assistant Programs
- How To Get Accepted To the University of Iowa’s PA Program
- An Inside Look at Yale’s Online PA Program
- How Did This Successful PA Applicant Get Accepted?
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Beth Piraino, Associate Dean of Admissions at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine (UPSOM), explores the school’s innovative Three Rivers Curriculum, emphasizing small-group learning, early clinical exposure, and the integration of "Streams" (special interest areas) and Threads" (core competencies like leadership and clinical reasoning). Dr. Piraino also discusses the role of secondary essays in evaluating applicants and explores why teamwork, resilience, and cultural awareness are important in the admissions process. She goes on to highlight a common mistake applicants make in the application process.
Relevant Links:
- University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
- Are You Ready to Apply Med School Quiz
Related Shows:
- Inside Geisinger Med School Admissions with Dr. Michelle Schmude
- Accepted: Your Guide to CU School of Medicine
- Get Accepted to Washington University School of Medicine
- Deep Dive into Duke Medical: An Interview with Dr. Linton Yee
- Get Accepted to Loyola Stritch Medical School
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham interviews Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz, Associate Dean for Admissions at the University of Washington School of Medicine (UWSOM). Dr. Muzquiz, a graduate of UWSOM and a family physician with ties to the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes, discusses the unique five-state WWAMI (Washington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, Idaho) curriculum, which allows students to complete their foundational training in their home states.
The School of Medicine emphasizes training for rural and underserved communities, offering special programs like TRUST (Targeted Rural and Underserved Scholar Track) and CUSP (Community Urban Scholars Program) aimed at fostering future physicians committed to these populations. Dr. Muzquiz highlights the comprehensive and transparent admissions process at UWSOM, including the importance of personal storytelling in applications and interviews.
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Welcome to the 600th episode of Admissions Straight Talk! In this milestone episode, host Linda Abraham sits down with Dr. Michelle Schmude, Vice Provost for Enrollment Management and Professor of Medical Education at Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine, to explore the innovative and comprehensive Total Health Curriculum.
Dr. Schmude shares how this evidence-based program prepares medical students for the complexities of 21st-century healthcare through early clinical experiences, team-based learning, and a focus on systems-based and humanistic medicine.
Listeners will also learn about exciting updates at Geisinger, including the evolution to Geisinger College of Health Sciences and its impact on healthcare education, as well as details on the Abigail Geisinger Scholars Program, which allows students to graduate debt-free in exchange for service in underserved areas.
Relevant Links:
- Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine
- Med School Admissions: What you Need to Know to Get Accepted
- Evaluating a Situational Judgment Test for Use in Medical School Admissions: Two Years of AAMC PREview Exam Administration Data
Related Shows:
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- An Interview With the Temple Katz School of Medicine Admissions Dean
- NYMC: How to Get In
- How to Write Essays That Will Get You Into Medical School
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham interviews Dr. Jeffrey SooHoo, Assistant Dean for Admissions at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. They discuss the unique aspects of the Colorado medical curriculum, including the new Trek curriculum, the importance of longitudinal integrated clerkships, and the various tracks available for students. Dr. SooHoo also shares insights into the secondary application process, the role of the CASPER test, and the criteria for interview invitations. The conversation highlights common mistakes applicants make, the importance of research experience, and the support systems in place for medical students. Dr. SooHoo emphasizes the competitive nature of medical school admissions and the holistic review process used to evaluate applicants.
Takeaways:
- The Colorado School of Medicine has a unique Trek curriculum launched in 2021.
- Longitudinal integrated clerkships allow for deeper relationships with preceptors and patients.
- Students can choose from various tracks, including rural medicine and global health.
- The secondary application focuses on value alignment with the school's pillars: leadership, curiosity, and commitment.
- CASPER is used to assess non-cognitive competencies in applicants.
- The admissions process is highly competitive, with many qualified applicants not receiving offers.
- Interviews are conducted virtually and include both group and individual assessments.
- Research experience is beneficial but not mandatory for applicants.
- Common mistakes include not understanding the competitiveness of admissions and failing to tell a cohesive story in applications.
- Support systems like Compass Guides help students navigate their medical education.
Relevant Links:
- University of Colorado School of Medicine
- Accepted's Med School Calculator Quiz
Related Shows:
- Washington University School of Medicine
- Deep Dive Into Duke Medical: An Interview with Associate Dean Linton Yee
- Duke’s Physician Assistant Program
- Getting Into Med School Isn’t Easy…But This Applicant Did It!
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In this episode, Bruce DelMonico, Assistant Dean of Admissions at Yale School of Management, shares an overview of the Yale School of Management. The program offers a distinctive two-year, full-time MBA program emphasizing an interdisciplinary, integrated curriculum to prepare students for leadership in business and society. Bruce discusses how aspiring applicants can prepare for and approach the extensive application process, which includes a GMAT/GRE test score, written essays, a resume, a video component, a behavioral assessment, and an interview.
Links mentioned in this episode:
- Yale SOM MBA Admissions
- Yale SOM Application Guide
- Yale SOM Essay Tips
- MBA ROI Calculator
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- How to Create Successful MBA Applications
- How to Get Accepted to UCLA Anderson
- How To Get Into UVA Darden’s MBA Program
- How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA
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The NYU Stern Masters of Business Analytics and AI (MSBAAI) program is a one-year specialized degree program that trains students to make data-driven decisions. Dr. Anindya Ghose, Heinz Riehl Chair Professor of Technology and Marketing at New York University's Leonard Stern School of Business and Director of the Masters of Business Analytics and AI Program at Stern discusses everything applicants need to know. He shares the core aim of the program which is to impart cross-functional skills that can be applied across industries. Additionally, Dr. Ghose highlights the career path for graduates of the program.
Show Links:
- Masters of Business Analytics and AI Program
- Applying to Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know
- Application Advice from Accepted Data Science Clients
- Seeking a Graduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence?
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes:
- ROI and NYU's Part-time MBA
- Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi: A Full-Time MBA in the Middle East
- Stanford’s MCiM Combines Technology, Healthcare, and Business
- Berkeley Haas' Master of Financial Engineering Program
- CMU Tepper’s MS in Business Analytics: All You Need to Know
- What’s New at NYU Stern’s Online Masters of Science in Quantitative Management
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Dawna Levenson, Assistant Dean of MIT Sloan School of Management, provides a thorough examination into the MIT Sloan School of Management's full-time MBA program, which is mission-driven, focused on identifying and solving the world's biggest and most complex problems. The program offers flexibility with a one-semester core and three semesters of electives, allowing students to pursue seven different certificates or concentrations. Dawna discusses the comprehensive application process, which includes a cover letter, one-page resume, 60-second video, and a behavioral video interview. She shares her tips on how to successfully approach the application. Dawna also highlights the early admission program for current college students and graduate students.
Links mentioned in the show:
- MIT Sloan Admissions
- MIT Sloan MBA Early
- MIT Sloan Application Tips
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes
- How to Get Accepted to UCLA Anderson
- Prepare for the GRE and GMAT Focus
- How To Get Into UVA Darden’s MBA Program
- How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA
- How to Respond to the New Harvard MBA Essay Questions
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In this episode, Dr. Valerie Ratts, the Associate Dean for Admissions at The Washington University School of Medicine, offers an overview of the unique program. She describes the "Gateway Curriculum" which provides early clinical exposure and flexibility for students to explore different areas of medicine, including research, innovation, advocacy, and education. Dr. Ratts overviews Wash U’s holistic approach to admissions and the multi-step interview process. Listeners will also learn about the school’s robust student success program, with faculty coaches to provide personalized guidance and support throughout medical school.
Relevant Links:
- WashU Medical School
- Med Quiz
Related Admission Straight Talk Episodes
- Getting Into Med School Isn’t Easy…But This Applicant Did It!
- Get Accepted to Loyola Stritch Medical School
- Submit Successful Secondaries for Medical School
- Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham shares a strategic framework for a successful MBA application, with tips that can benefit applicants to any program. She discusses how to choose the right schools to apply to, demonstrate your knowledge of the programs you are applying to, effectively present yourself throughout the application, and review the application materials before submission.
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Dr. Linton Yee, Associate Dean for Admissions at Duke University School of Medicine joins us to discuss how applicants can earn a spot in this highly competitive program. Dr. Yee walks listeners through the unique curriculum which focuses on integrating basic science and clinical experiences from the first year. In addition to strong academic performance, Duke looks for clinical and research experiences, as well as a vision for the future in medicine. Dr. Yee gives an inside look at what applicants can expect from the MMI interviews.
Relevant Links:
- Duke Med School
- Med Quiz
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes:
- Getting Into Med School Isn’t Easy…But This Applicant Did It!
- Get Accepted to Loyola Stritch Medical School
- Submit Successful Secondaries for Medical School
- Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
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Alex Lawrence, Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Anderson School of Management, describes the program’s offerings. Students are offered a customizable curriculum with a wide range of elective courses and specializations. The program also includes a capstone project and focuses on developing leadership skills. The summer quarter provides students with foundational elements and an opportunity to get acclimated to the program. The program also offers a business creation program for students with an entrepreneurial mindset and an applied management research project for students to work on real business challenges. Alex discusses the flexible testing policy and shares who should take the test. Alex also highlights the program’s values and how applicants can demonstrate them in resumes, letters of recommendation, and interviews.
Relevant Links:
- Anderson Full-time MBA
- How an MBA from Anderson Helped this Career Switcher
- B-School for Good: Pursuing Social Impact Through UCLA Anderson’s Fully Employed MBA
- UCLA Anderson School of Management MBA Program Now STEM-Certified | Accepted
Relevant Admissions Straight Talk Episodes:
- How To Get into UVA Darden’s MBA Program
- How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA
- How to Respond to the New Harvard MBA Essay Questions
- Ace the New Michigan Ross MBA Essay Questions
- How to get Accepted at Michigan Ross
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Dr. April Stouder, Associate Program Director and Director of Admissions at the Duke Physician Assistant Program, discusses what it takes to gain a spot in the competitive program. She discusses Duke PA program’s emphasis on community service, particularly in underserved communities and healthcare roles. April highlights the value of non-clinical volunteering, especially in healthcare or with underserved populations. She explains the admissions process, including the CASPA application and the GPA and GRE requirements. April walks us through the interview process, which is designed to assess both cognitive and non-cognitive attributes like maturity and resilience.
Relevant Links:
- Duke PA Program
- The Ultimate Guide to Becoming a Physician Assistant
- CASPA: Everything You Need to Know about the Experiences Section
- That PA Girl with Can’t-Miss Advice for Aspiring Physician Assistants
Related Admissions Straight Talk Episodes:
- How to Get into Physician Assistant Programs
- How To Get Accepted To the University of Iowa’s PA Program
- An Inside Look at Yale's Online PA Program
- How Did This Successful PA Applicant Get Accepted?
- Andrea Benedict: Life as a Physician Assistant
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This week, Linda Abraham welcomes Dean Shane Cooper, Senior Associate Dean for Admissions, Financial Aid and Student Services at Cornell School of Law. Dean Cooper shares insights into the admissions process at Cornell Law School, emphasizing the mutual goal of finding the right fit between the school and the applicant. We discuss the benefits of small class sizes, close faculty interaction, and strong international programs. Despite its Ithaca location, the school offers abundant opportunities for experiential learning. Dean Cooper explains that Cornell accepts LSAT, GRE, or GMAT scores without preference, with financial aid linked to the strength of these scores. He highlights the importance of diverse experiences and well-rounded characters in applicants, and we explore how interviews, re-applicant growth, and the Why Cornell essay play significant roles in the admissions process. Dean Cooper underscores Cornell Law’s commitment to opening doors for students and making a positive impact on the legal community.
Mentioned in today's episode:
- Cornell Law School JD Program
- Are You Ready for Law School?, Accepted's Free Law School Admissions Quiz
Related Admissions Straight Talk episodes:
- How to Get Into George Washington School of Law
- How to Get into Washington University in St. Louis School of Law
- How to Get into USC Gould School of Law
- JD-Next: A Great Option for Law School Applicants
- How to Get into the University of Chicago Law School
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This week, we hear from Marla Schechter, a US immigration lawyer with 20+ years of experience. Marla shares her expertise on various topics related to obtaining a visa for studying in the United States. She covers the process of obtaining an F-1 visa, the advantages of studying in a STEM-certified program, the H-1B visa for working in the US, and the Green Card process. She also highlights common mistakes made by student applicants and the potential challenges of obtaining a visa for individuals with criminal records.
Relevant Links:
- Schechter Immigration Law
- Fitting in and Standing Out
Relevant Admission Straight Talk Episodes:
- Applying to U.S. Business Schools from Europe, Asia, the Middle East
- Former Wharton/Lauder Admissions Director
- All You Need to Know About the New, Shorter GRE
- Get Accepted to PhD Programs in the Humanities
- How to Apply Successfully to STEM PhD Programs
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Bara Sapir joins Admissions Straight Talk to discuss the benefits and challenges of the GRE and GMAT exams. She delves into the structure and length of the exams and also discusses the challenges unique to each one. Bara shares her expert tips on how to overcome these challenges, including being an active participant in test preparation and developing test-taking strategies. Bara and Linda have a discussion on the value of these exams and the importance of reframing the test-taking experience.
Relevant Links:
- Free Consultation with Accepted
- City Test Prep
- MindFlow Speed Reading
- Get Ready for the New GRE
- MBA Waves
Relevant Admission Straight Talk Episodes:
- All You Need to Know About the New, Shorter GRE
- What You Need to Know to Ace the GMAT
- JD-Next: A Great Option for Law School Applicants
- Oxford Lecturer Joins Accepted
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Dawna Clarke, Senior Assistant Dean of Admissions at UVA Darden, returns to Admissions Straight Talk to discuss various aspects of the Darden MBA program, including experiential learning opportunities, global study opportunities, the use of AI in the program, the application process, and common mistakes made by applicants. Dawna emphasizes the importance of authenticity in the application and provides examples of successful essays. She also discusses the interview process and suggests that applicants ask thoughtful and probing questions to demonstrate their research and interest in the program.
Relevant Links:
- UVA Darden MBA
- Discover Darden Blog
- Accepted Darden Essay Tips
- MBA Admissions Quiz – Are you ready?
Relevant shows:
- Do You Have the Spike for Toronto Rotman MBA?
- How to get Accepted at Michigan Ross
- So You Want to Do an MBA Outside the U.S.
- Former Wharton/Lauder Admissions Director
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In this episode, Eddie Asbie, Executive Director of Admissions and Scholarship at Cornell Johnson Graduate School of Management, shares an overview of the admissions process. He provides insights into the application process at Cornell Johnson, including the testing and test waiver policy, the interview process, and advice for re-applicants. He offers details on the new essay questions for the upcoming application cycle and shares his thoughts on using AI for essays.
Relevant Links:
- Cornell Johnson Full-time MBA
- MBA Admissions Quiz
Relevant shows:
- Do You Have the Spike for Toronto Rotman MBA?
- So You Want to Do an MBA Outside the U.S.
- How to get Accepted at Michigan Ross
- Former Wharton/Lauder Admissions Director
- How to Get into HEC Paris MBA?
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In this episode, Linda Abraham invites Accepted consultants Esmeralda Cardenal and Kelly Wilson to discuss the updates to the Harvard Business School application and provide insights into how applicants can approach the essays. They emphasize that HBS is still looking for leaders who have made an impact and can grow in any environment. While the criteria may be similar to before, the way applicants communicate their experiences has changed. The panelists advise applicants to focus on the entire application, not just the essays, and to demonstrate growth, leadership, and curiosity throughout. They also discuss the potential impact of the new essay requirements and the importance of authenticity in the application process.
Relevant Links:
- Sign up for a Free consultation with an Accepted expert.
- Esmeralda Cardenal, Consultant profile
- Natalie Grinblatt Epstein, Consultant profile
- Michelle Stockman, Consultant profile
- Kelly Wilson, Consultant profile
Related Admissions Straight Talk shows:
- Do You Have the Spike for Toronto Rotman?
- MIT Sloan: For Rising Executives Considering an MBA
- How to get into Berkeley Haas
- What’s New at Penn’s The Wharton School. And How to Get In
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In this episode, Linda Abraham interviews Dean Sophia Sim of George Washington School of Law. They discuss various aspects of the law school admissions process, including what makes a standout personal statement, the importance of a balanced program, the acceptance of alternative standardized tests, the use of AI tools in the application process, and the introduction of interviews at GW Law.
Relevant Links:
- George Washington University Law School Admissions
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Andrea McHale, the Director of the Michigan Ross Full-time MBA and Global MBA Admissions, returns to Admissions Straight Talk to discuss the newly released essay prompts for the Michigan Ross MBA program. Andrea shares an overview of each of the four questions and gives an inside look at exactly what the admissions committee hopes to learn from applicants. Andrea emphasizes the importance of impact and motivation in the application process. She also discusses the potential use of AI in the admissions process.
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In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham interviews Yael Bruk, a recent graduate from Binghamton University who was accepted to multiple medical schools. Yael shares her advice for pre-med students, including the importance of taking notes during clinical experiences and writing down meaningful stories to include in applications. She also discusses her own journey straight from college to medical school, including her exploration of different career paths within the healthcare field and her decision to major in biology and philosophy. Yael emphasizes the importance of staying organized during the application process. She also offers tips for preparing for medical school interviews, such as reviewing common interview questions and taking a moment to think before answering difficult questions.
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Kelly Wilson, an Accepted consultant and former admissions director takes a deep dive into master's degrees in graduate management education. Kelly provides insights into the differences between various master's degrees, such as master's in management, master's in finance, and master's in business analytics. She highlights the importance of understanding the specific program and school you are applying to, considering factors such as career outcomes, STEM certification for international students, curriculum, and timing of the program. Kelly also advises applicants to avoid common mistakes, such as a mismatch of skills and a lack of clarity in goals. She suggests seeking experiential learning opportunities and talking to current students and alumni to gain insights into different career paths.
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- Consultant Profile: Kelly Wilson
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Mohammad Salhia, Managing Director of Recruitment, Admissions, and Business Development at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto, discusses the distinctive features of the Rotman MBA program. Mohammad highlights the various MBA program options at Rotman, including full-time, morning/evening, and executive MBA programs. He emphasizes the comprehensive nature of the full-time MBA program, which includes academic study, elective courses, and a four-month internship. He also discusses the unique features of the program, such as the Self-Development Lab and the Leadership Development Lab, which focus on fostering communication, collaboration, and critical thinking skills. Additionally, he shares his tips for how to determine and present a “spike factor.”
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- Toronto Rotman MBA program
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Show SummaryIn this episode, Linda Abraham interviews Darrell Nabers, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment at Loyola University of Chicago, Stritch School of Medicine. They discuss the distinctive elements of the Loyola Stritch approach to medical education, the importance of faith and compassion in the application process, the impact of AI on medical education, and the timing of the medical school application process. Darrell emphasizes the importance of being ready and not comparing oneself to others in the application process. He also advises applicants to seek advice from reliable sources and to focus on their own journey rather than succumbing to the fear of missing out.
Show NotesWelcome to the 580th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
Our guest today, Darrell Nabers is a return guest. He’s the Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment at Loyola University of Chicago, Stritch School of Medicine. Darrell earned his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from Whittier College and Golden Gate University, respectively. He then held various admissions positions from 2000 to 2005 before joining the University of Chicago’s admissions staff. There, he served in different roles until 2015. He joined Loyola College Stritch in 2015 as Director of Admissions and became Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment in February 2019.
Darrell, welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:12]Good to see you again, Linda. Thank you for having me back.
To start, can you give everybody an overview of the distinctive elements to the Loyola Stritch approach to medical education? [2:27]Well, we’re one of four Jesuit medical schools in the country so I think that by virtue of that, there tends to be an understanding within the collective consideration of our institution about the path to medicine being similar to that of one who discerns their vocation very comprehensively. So within the scope of that discernment, we apply a lot of the same principles that might be applied in any kind of Jesuit environment, which is to obviously think of others first in supporting efforts that are more social justice oriented, being a global thinker, to be proactive and engaged when you sense or see a problem, that you don’t resist the urge to do something about it, that you are putting into motion perhaps an understanding of the situation, and then utilizing your resources to understand what needs to be done, and then pursuing a path to mitigate that which you see as an injustice or an inadequacy or an inefficiency.
And I believe that within the scope of that also is the added element of compassion for others, not just that you’re supporting the goals of others, that you’re helping others, but that you have a passion to do that and a passion to build equality among populations where that may not be the case. So if you apply that Jesuit ideal within the realm of education, which is where I’m pursuing my doctorate. I’m about a year away, but the thing that helped me affirm the sort of Jesuit pedagogy is taking classes myself, not in the medical school, but adjacent in another program because then I could understand the pedagogical link. I could understand reflection as a means to solve problems, I can then understand why principally we focus our efforts on underserved populations, because of the opportunity that exists to help a great number who are underserved, but also the potential to mitigate further consequences as a result of their being ignored. These are all essential elements of the Jesuit culture.
I would suggest that there is a culture in mind here when you are becoming a member of this community. And I further understood that when I went to Italy a couple of years ago for a class. I spent an entire summer there. It was really hot, but other than that, I learned a lot about the essential element of the Loyola name, the idea of St. Ignatius being a martyr and being a saint and being a part of this global culture, recognition of what means, his life being lived for others, his life being lived to teach others ethical responsibility, to teach others how to serve and provide compassion to others, how to solve problems reflectively, how to just think in an introspective way. And those things are still at play in many communities around the world. So for us to have an opportunity to build that environment within our learning environment and within our care environment, so right now we have students who are out there in the world working on missions in Bolivia and Belize and other parts of South America.
So that’s part of the culture of this space, and that’s an expectation that we have when we look at an application. We want to understand if a student is compelled by this environment, compelled by doing those things. And if they are, I think they’ll come out of this environment much better practitioners than if they had chosen to go to another institution.
What if one shares the very noble ideals that you just enunciated but isn’t of the Catholic faith or is of no faith? [7:05]I think faith is a part of cultural identity for many, but it’s also something that many of us don’t recognize as being a part of our everyday life. But I think in essence, what is most important in this environment is to understand how people are compelled by faith. So before we got on the podcast, we were talking about our personal situations, personal stories. One of the things I didn’t mention in that instance was the decision was made to have care at a hospital that is Catholicly affiliated. And when I asked the question why, there’s always a spiritual element to that. There’s always a reason that’s important to the patient. And as a Catholic hospital that is very front-facing as a Catholic hospital, it represents Loyola. And remember what I said about Loyola being a global brand, a global brand that represents and means many things to many people.
What should it mean? [8:22]Well, again, all the things that I described, the life of St. Ignatius. And principally, if you go to an Ignatian high school or, I know many students that have gone to parochial schools or secondary schools where there’s been an affiliation with Ignatius or Jesuits. I mean, they’re all the same. Jesuits and Ignatian spirituality are all the same element, but they’ve learned certain principles in those environments and they gravitate to them throughout their lives.
But ultimately, when a patient is sick, they gravitate towards things that are important to them. And so that becomes the element of our experience. When we have patients here, they’re drawn here in many cases by their faith, by their understanding and recognition of Loyola as being a place where they will be treated with compassion and care. So that’s very important. And that example I provided to you before the call, that’s the reason why the decision was made, because of the care model, the way that the patients were treated, the way that the staff cared for the patients.
I’ve had relatives at various Catholic institutions. I don’t know if they’re affiliated with Jesuits or not, but they were definitely Catholic, and the care was excellent. [9:35]Right. So I think there’s an element of understanding that. So if you are Muslim, faith is obviously important to you. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that a patient is drawn to an environment because of their faith. It’s that faith and that understanding and recognition of the importance of faith that compels, I think, us to see that student potentially as a good fit for this environment. So it really doesn’t have to do with the religion that you practice, but I think it is important to have an understanding of the importance of faith to others.
Obviously because of AMCAS and all the other restrictions, we don’t question candidates about their religious backgrounds. If they want to tell us that information, they’re free to do that, but we’re not going to make any discerning considerations about their application because of that. But when you provide a candidate with the platform to just speak about faith, even when you, you’re not making it a direct request like, we’re just telling them what does our mission mean to them, you get a lot of really detailed and historical longitudinal perspectives about not just themselves, but their family, and the connections their families have had to that faith element. And in many cases, that’s inspired them to move towards medicine.
So I think it has a lot of importance to a lot of people. Everyone doesn’t express faith the same way or recognize it in the same way, but I think if you do recognize it and you do understand it, you will also understand how it can compel others, and I think that’s primarily the benefit of having an environment like this, because we bring students from all sorts of religious backgrounds. When things are happening in the world and there’s contention and discord, our students come together and embrace the idea that they’re serving a higher power by virtue of being here and learning, and that their faith is helping to inspire that.
I had my doubts coming from a very heavy research institution coming to a Catholic institution, and whether or not I would feel comfortable. I’ve always felt comfortable here. I’m not Catholic. Those questions that I get about Catholic faith, I’m not really sure what that might mean. When we have mass, I often don’t know when to stand up or sit down, but it’s the feeling I get being in that environment and seeing people who are passionate about their faith. I feel like that helps me at times, because I’m very spiritual and I recognize that faith is important to me. I just really haven’t put a name to it like many people have.
Going in a completely different direction from faith, from ancient faith, let’s talk about AI. How is AI affecting medical education at Stritch, if at all? [12:30]Well, right now, I think it’s just a very comprehensive conversation about the utility of it. I think there are obviously some concerns. The initial part of it were the concerns. In my realm, in admissions, the red flags have been flying for a couple of years about candidates using AI to write their applications, to write their essays. Do we have a mechanism to prevent that from happening? So there have been discussions about that. At the end of the day, being disingenuous, it’s very easy to spot, and that’s definitely something that would rate a person down in our process, if not completely out.
So I mean, obviously again, as a student currently, I recognize that some of my classmates might be using AI to stimulate some response to a prompt or stimulate some response to a question at a greater level that needs to have more detail to substantiate whatever assertion is being made. But in the world of the pre-med, if it’s the goal to address a question and to be as compelling as possible, AI serves that purpose, but is it your experience? And I think that-
Well, it can rarely go into the depth that you need. [14:10]Exactly. And so I think that that’s the cautionary consideration in terms of admissions, and medical education as a whole, there’s probably many different ways that this could benefit. I mean, I think of simulation all the time. We have an ophthalmology lab, a VR lab, and I feel like if I were to speculate that that is a form of AI, I mean, it wasn’t presented to me as such, but when I put the goggles on and I’m in this immersive environment and I see a big eyeball in front of me and I’m able to twist it and turn it and go inside of it with my hands, to me, that seems like artificial intelligence. It may or may not be, but it’s certainly an amazing learning tool. And if I were to be an ophthalmologist, I would bend over backwards to have that as part of my training environment.
So I think that there will be, if there aren’t already applications of it, especially in the clinical training environment because I think that’s where it’s really essential, because if you can just consider in training how many different cases are you going to be able to see before you graduate? With AI, you could literally see any case you wanted. And if you’re programming, we use mannequins in our simulation lab. If you can program a mannequin to do anything that’s possible for a human to do, then that’s a great tool for training.
And I know that we have a simulation lab and I know that we do those things. The mannequins we use tend to be directed by, they’re not autonomous, they’re directed by someone, so someone has to pull the levers to flip the switches behind the glass to make it bleed or to have the baby come out, whatever. But I think at some point that technology will progress. That mannequin will probably be five times the cost, but it probably would reduce the need to have the person behind the glass because now the AI functions autonomously, and now this isn’t for all intents and purposes, a patient.
Let’s look at the application. You have a pretty extensive secondary, from what I recall, looking at it before. Is it going to change? [16:29]Yes. We’ve just applied a change. We’ve got to get it programmed in. Actually, more than one change. The one change I’m most proud of, if we can make it happen. So if it doesn’t, I guess having it out there, you throw on a podcast, not great, but I’m trying to implement some sort of sound file so that candidates can actually tell us their name. They speak it into the system and then provide a pronunciation for us, a phonetic pronunciation using a standard that we provide. So that actually would be one of the questions, one of the new questions.
That’s a fairly easy one to answer. [17:18]Yeah, it’s pretty easy. I don’t necessarily think that’s taxing, but it’s essential. Once it’s set up, it’s going to be great for us because now we’re making connections with students and we’re not embarrassing ourselves by trying to say names that we don’t understand or making the candidate feel bad when they visit us. And again, I think if we’re able to maintain that file and the candidate comes into the medical school, now we can share that with faculty so now everyone knows who that person is. And obviously there’s touch points that are really important, I think that’s definitely one of them. The other questions that we utilize, again, we’ve modified them because what we look at in one cycle, we get a sense for a question’s response and how the patterns of response go. And we might think to ourselves, well, they’re addressing the question, but can they take it a little further?
And if they did take it a little further, would this address questions to us about the candidates in general? And I would say that most of those questions tend to be questions of behavior. What kind of behavior does this predict? Or what type of response did this particular situation engender for this person? And what kind of change did it make to their original path? We are always trying to get candidates to extend their opportunities to dialogue, and that is another essential element of the Jesuit model. It is to reflect and to provide a pretty consistent baseline of understanding and evidence to support the assertions that a person makes. And so the prompts that we set up are in many cases designed to do that. Some of them are more structured to help us understand what they understand about our mission or what they know about the Jesuit environment.
So just like you mentioned in your question, that’s a big mystery to some people. So just trying to understand where they’re coming from. Did they accidentally apply to us or did they really intend to, right? And then once we get beyond that, again, it’s really trying to understand behaviors. And I can say absolutely 100% that behaviors are predictive and they often don’t change. So if a candidate has evidence of a behavior and that behavior is not, let’s say, trending up in the right direction, it’s going to be hard for us to see any way for that to change without the candidate expressing that they have remediated the behavior or that they have done things tangibly to put them on a different path.
They’ve accepted the gift of change. [20:24]Exactly. Or sought the advice they need to make the change possible. So that’s where we’re really going with the mandatory secondary questions. We have mandatory secondary questions, and then there are some that are not mandatory because they don’t apply to everyone.
So you are anticipating some changes to the secondary to help applicants dig a little deeper and gain a better understanding.One of the things I noticed on your website is that it conveniently provides a lot of data about the average number of research hours, paid clinical experience. I think the first one was 1,545 hours of research experience, 1,498 hours of paid clinical experience, 599 hours of clinical service, and non-medically based service was 548 hours, and this is per admitted student in the M1 class. You’re one of the first schools that I’ve seen do this, which I think is actually really helpful to students. [20:41]Yeah, I mean that’s an average. I think in some ways it might be more anxiety inducing than anything else, but here’s what I’ve often shared, is that this is an average of all the candidates who are matriculating into our program. So within the construct of any of these hours, you’re talking about paid clinical hours, that’s a pretty high number.
When I think about how to articulate this to a candidate, I’m really telling them three things. Out of 170 individuals, this is an average of the hours that they have utilized for this experience, which means that if you were looking at this as a spread of hours, if we’re looking at this longitudinally or putting all of these on a graph, there’s going to be probably 15 that have exceeded the maximum number of hours. So let’s say, 10,000 hours or more. There might be 15 individuals.
Right. I see there’s a bell curve. [22:33]Correct. But that curve may be a little bit more slanted, it may not be exactly a perfect bell. So what we’re saying is that on the one hand, there are some candidates out there that are exceeding the hours that normally would be bringing down the average, and there’s a reason for that though. The reason that that’s happening, and the reason there are more than there have been in the past is because candidates are taking more time to build on their experiences before they apply. This doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to do that, but this is a trend.
It’s indicative of a trend. So if a curious candidate were to ask more questions about this, which does happen a lot, then I simply tell them, thinking about this from perspective of average age, when I started here, the average age of our first year class was 23, now it’s 25.
That’s a big difference. [23:33]So over the course of, I’ve been here eight, nine years, that gradually has increased. And I was even suggested if you were to focus on the past five years, that increase would be the same. In other words, that increase has really been within the last five years. So we could say there’s an effect based on the pandemic and the delay that the pandemic caused for many to get clinical experiences, but what it also means is that students were not ready to apply or they took their time in applying and they gave themselves more time to dive into these experiences, which are very important to discern for oneself if medicine is the right vocation for you. A lot of candidates are going through this really quickly, and this is starting to build more now, I think there’s an adverse to the trend now. I’ve met a lot of candidates in this cycle who are applying as rising seniors. And it’s against the advice of their advisors.
So it’s a reversal of the trend? [24:38]Correct. And this is indicative of what happens a lot in this process is that trends come and go. At some point, this trend where people are taking more time will probably abate. We’ll probably see the class start to become more aligned with this one or two year pattern, and it is pretty typical, but I think it also speaks to the idea of what many candidates are experiencing is going out into the social media environment and trying to figure things out, and what they’re going to see, the majority of them are going to see students really anxious about getting things going and not taking that extra time.
And sometimes their parents. [25:23]Right. Yeah, there’s that factor as well. But I think when you combine the parent factor with the crowdsourcing factor and often the lack of advising, that’s typically what you get. I mean, there’ve been plenty of students that I’ve seen who have advising and are not listening to the advice, but there are even more that have no advising and are just playing it by ear or using crowdsourcing as the best way to approach this situation. But you’re absolutely right about parents, that does come up a lot. The statement is always like, “My parents don’t understand why I would take time off.”
They shouldn’t be thinking of it as taking time off. They should be working, they should be pursuing their goals. [26:06]Or just regirding oneself for the next phase of this process. There’s nothing wrong with collecting oneself and putting everything in the right place and a proper perspective to move forward in an application process. So timing is everything in this experience, and some people are just not ready because they may not have had the formative experiences that others have had, but they may disregard that if they’re looking at a post on Reddit or they may disregard that if they’re to a person that they met who is actively engaged in applying to medical school, who is maybe a lot more certain about that opportunity. And again, I think thinking about yourself in terms of your readiness, far more important. The MCAT is one indicator that tends to be an outlier in that respect because I think a lot of candidates really push themselves to take the MCAT when they’re not ready, and they may get a score back that may not be indicative of the best work they can do, but they still continue to apply.
And if you’re not successful after that first attempt with that MCAT, then you really got to rethink, is this the right timing? And just maybe putting a patch on that isn’t really going to help, just taking the MCAT again may not necessarily help. It may be a sign that you might need a little bit more time, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I keep telling people, and I really share the story about me going through my doctorate now because I’m in my early fifties. It’s not medical school, but I did a lot of things before I decided to do this, and I’m pretty certain this is what I want to do. So it can take a little bit of time to be certain about those things, but it doesn’t have to happen while you’re in undergrad.
It doesn’t have to be this automatic switch that you convert to, because it is a much more challenging environment. It’s a much more demanding environment. It takes into account the fact that you’ve already made the decision about going into this vocation, and now you’re ready to do the work to get there. But I’ve seen a lot of medical students at some point in my career who rethink that and they say to themselves, “I didn’t really think that it would be this hard and I don’t know if I want to do this anymore,” and the majority of those people had parents that were pushing them.
But to me that’s not a surprise given the population of pre-meds. Now, a lot of them are still one parent physician, two parents physician, half the poll perhaps. I don’t know if it’s that many, but it seems like that many. And often it’s the case we’re really trying to figure out, is this really their decision or is this something that they feel is a legacy that they have to continue? And so it does take a little bit more introspection to get an answer to that question.
I interviewed somebody several years ago whose father wanted him to become a physician. And largely because his father wanted him to, he didn’t want to. And then, the father unfortunately passed away suddenly while he was in college, and he still didn’t want to be a physician, but somehow I think he became an EMT. Anyway, he ultimately decided to become a physician and was very happy he did, but it had to be his decision. And I think that’s what sometimes children of physicians struggle with.I had two thoughts come to mind as you were speaking. One is that the applicants or the students who are in college are really determined to get through the college and go straight into medical school, and they want to do the clinical volunteering and they want to do the community service volunteering, and they want to get some research in and they want to take the MCAT after their junior year, and they want to get good grades. Well, all the time demands of those first four items don’t support and help you get really good grades. So if you say, I’m not going to put that kind of pressure on myself. If I start medical school a year or two years after I graduate college, I’ll be able to take advantage of my college experience in a much richer way. I’ll be able to get the experience I want. I’ll be able to confirm that medicine is the right path for me, which is your point, and I’ll just be more ready and be a better candidate. And I think that’s something that’s frequently lost on those who just say, “I want to get going,” or whose parents are pushing them. [29:09]And again, I think that’s part of the advising structure, maybe the absence of it. In some cases, a lot of large undergraduate institutions just don’t have the bandwidth to support every student’s application process, so then they’re forced to form these groups on campus. I’m not going to name the school, but I interviewed quite a few of these candidates and I was told… Because I recognize they don’t have the advising structure, but I was told that this is a process that has been happening for quite some time to form these groups on campus to support students’ efforts to apply to medical school, to give them the opportunity to compel or link to clinical experiences and opportunities.
So now you have students essentially doing the work that a lot of advising teams would do, which is to engage physicians into shadowing opportunities for students or observational opportunities. And then if you’re proactive, which many of these students are, that leads to additional opportunities once they get that chance. But that’s what’s happening, students are really supporting one another, and that I think builds momentum. So I don’t think that having momentum is a bad thing. I think it’s a good thing. But I think the reality is you have to really know personally where you are compared to everyone else, and then just let everyone else do their thing, and just independently focus on whether or not, like you said, you’re ready to do all of those things, that all of those considerations are balanced, that you have an application that works for you because you have taken an MCAT that you want to forward on, because you consider the courses you’ve taken you know that the courses you’ve taken have prepared you well.
Sometimes I see applications and I’m like, and you don’t see either one of those things, but the candidate is not really being honest with themselves about what they see, or even more importantly, what that predicts in medical school. So that’s the thing I’m always trying to help them understand, the predictive nature of what they’re telling me or showing me or showing the committee is really what determines the impression the committee has. No matter what you say or try to tell, not show, but tell, is not going to mitigate what is seen in the trending or what’s seen in the transcript or what’s seen in the outcomes. Because I believe everyone will do what they have to succeed but at the same time, can you do that without delay? Can you do that while progressing in a very academically rigorous environment? Can you do that in an environment that’s going to demand of you your time and your efforts, and very quickly move forward rather than taking the time you might need to rethink things that are happening?
So that’s the thing about medical school, the pace is just unrelenting. And it’s constantly moving on to the next course or moving on to the next level and passing through the benchmarks without delay. So when a candidate shows me a transcript says that they’re ready to go into medical school and they’ve taken the MCAT six times, I say to myself, well, does this predict that you’re going to take the boards, the step one, six times? Because you can’t do that.
At some point you have to really understand how you can maintain success in the standardized testing environment without having to do it that many times. Think about all the costs, think about all the effort, think about all the anxiety, think about all the delay. All those things compounds and build that anxiety, and that’s the thing that really makes medical school hard. And when you start to see your peers advance and you’re still in the same classification, that’s another indication you’re not ready. But at that point, you don’t really have a choice, you’ve got to make it work. And I can tell that many students at that point are thinking to themselves, “I wish I’d taken more time.”
For sure. Just going back to those stats I cited about the paid clinical experience and the clinical service numbers. If I were just to look at those stats, I might assume that Stritch values paid clinical experience as much or more than volunteer clinical experience. Are those numbers just a reflection of the trend that we were talking about or does it reflect Stritch’s values? In other words, if you just volunteer, is that somehow worse than if you get a job? [35:07]No, it’s a reflection of the trend. I mean, there are far fewer experiences coded as “volunteer.”
And certainly far fewer hours, particularly in the clinical arena because, again, this is the thing that most candidates are most compelled with when it comes to clinical experiences. It’s not necessarily the service part of it, it’s the application and the execution and whether or not it’s going to resound to the committee. Am I going to be licensed? Am I going to be certified? Am I going to have a level of progression within this clinical realm and it demonstrates that I’m ready to see patients or to have that experience of seeing patients? I think that ultimately, service unfortunately has been consigned to this sideline of, well, it’s just inherent in what I do.
If I’m going to get up and go to work and see patients, that’s service. And in my opinion, it also suggests that within the pre-med culture, there has been a redirect from service to clinical because of the challenge of getting clinical experiences underfoot, and especially when you think about that four years of undergrad. So the thing that I would say, if you’re doing four years of undergrad knowing you’re doing a gap year, what we tend to see is more service. We see more service in that four-year construct because they’re of the mind that I can wait until I’m done with undergrad to really focus on this clinical experience. I’m going to pivot to do scribing, I’m going to pivot to go on to clinical research.
So I’m going to enjoy, like you said, my undergraduate experience. I’m going to be of service to others. I’m going to do local leadership here, I’m going to do service over here. I’m going to do mission trips, those types of things. But once they leave medical or leave undergrad, those service engagements start to diminish because they’re more focused on either remediation of grades, doing a post-bacc or graduate program, or focusing on a longitudinal work-oriented clinical experience, because that’s how they build up that experience. So service becomes minimized in that setting. So we’re seeing that really hitting the post-baccs much harder in terms of limited service. So that’s why that construct across all 170 candidates has a value that is significantly less in terms of the average.
Does Loyola Stritch require shadowing? [38:18]I think it’s a practical thing to do for all candidates. I wouldn’t say that it’s the most significant thing you can do. As I mentioned, I think that you really have to find an opportunity to engage in a patient-oriented experience, whether that’s scribing, which is not really hands-on. It’s obviously, again, a lot of observation, but there’s so much work and so much interaction with the clinical care team in that position that it does satisfy our considerations for whether or not the candidate is knowledgeable about medicine, knowledgeable about work, and a care team has really seen the environment firsthand and not through someone else’s perspective.
So I think that shadowing is reasonable if you’re trying to just assert whether or not this is the right location or the right experience that you want to pursue, but I think once you’ve made that decision, you really have to pivot into something that’s a little bit more tangible in terms of your time and effort to really make the case that you’ve tested your assertion and that you are in fact focused on this vocation. And again, it doesn’t necessarily have to be that I want to be this type of physician, but that this is the type of environment of training that is suitable for me.
This podcast should air on June 11th. If someone hasn’t submitted their primary by June 11th, or let’s say even in June, are they doomed? [39:50]Oh, no. I just got off the phone with a young woman. She was so adamant about this thing, and then when I really pressed her to tell me where she got it from, she said it was a student. I was like, “You can’t listen to students.” You can, but you can’t. If I need financial advice, I’m not going to ask a student. That’s my advice. Treat application to medical school like financial advice, okay? Ask a professional. So no, I don’t think it’s late because we don’t actually pull the download in until July.
So I think that’s important for candidates out there to understand. AMCAS will compel you to submit your application in May. Once the primary application is given to them, then it’s verified. So that verification could take two weeks, it could take six weeks. That’s what really determines when your application goes to the medical schools. If the medical schools are ready to receive that application when it comes to them, then you receive a secondary application. So for us, we don’t actually start looking at those in our system until late June. So the earliest that we would send a supplemental application to anyone is, I think, the second week of July. So I would say that that would not be late. Now, if you were to say August or September, again, thinking about verification being six weeks, maybe four weeks, now that application isn’t getting to the medical school until September or October, and then you’re getting the secondary. Remember, it’s not complete until you finish the secondary. So all that time that’s elapsing is really now happening in an active cycle where you have interviews and all that’s happening. So I would say, if you’re preparing your application while active interviews are going on, then yeah, that’s too late.
Per our last conversation, Stritch is open to updates. What events are you interested in learning more about once the applicants have submitted their primary and secondary applications? How much is too much in terms of quantity? And what is insignificant in terms of quality? [42:08]Well, this is one way I know that people are listening to your podcasts because I mentioned this, was it like three years ago I did your podcast? Ever since then, we’ve started to see updates from applicants increase. Remember what I told you at that point was that we don’t tell applicants about the update process, we only tell them once they interview. And then once they’ve interviewed, we help them focus on three types of updates. But we’ve been seeing those types of updates coming to us from the primary point, so they’re obviously listening to your podcasts and getting that advice. We always suggest three of the types of updates that are most effective are an academic update. So this is for those, remember I said there’s a large trend now applying into your senior year. So you may have coursework that has not been part of your process of discernment and that verification. When you submit your AMCAS application, they’re going to want to know what your predicted courses are.
So if you’re submitting your application and you’ve started those courses and you haven’t received an interview yet, a good thing to do might be to just let the school know, hey, these are my first semester or this is my first trimester outcomes, or these are the classes that I’m taking, or these are the classes I’ve changed, or I just started taking this class and this is what’s happened, this has been great. Academic updates can not only assert that the individual is interested, but provide some context to what may have been seen in the transcript or changes that may have been made. So academic, absolutely professional. Absolutely. This is even more pronounced because we’re seeing a lot more candidates anticipating hours of experiences rather than having them completed. And so if you’re anticipating the majority of your hours in a clinical experience that hasn’t really started at the time of your application, then that’s a great opportunity for you to provide updates, and we call those professional updates.
So I’ve been in this position as a scribe for a month. I coded this in my AMCAS guest application as anticipating X number of hours. Those hours have increased, decreased. I’m working with a different physician, and I wrote about in my application, because I’m doing such a great job working for the internal medicine person I’m scribing for. I had this patient encounter, this was great. Those updates, again, help us understand interest, but also provide context to what we’re seeing in the application. And then, the third is personal update.
So anything of a personal nature that might need to be availed to us, and this runs the gamut, I think, particularly for students who are applying with statuses that are a bit challenging. So we’ve had a lot of refugees and asylees applying to us over the past couple of years. We’ve also seen a lot more undocumented students who are not able to receive DACA status applying into the pool and asking for a remedy like, how do I keep my application active? So many of them are using adjustment of status, many of them are using asylee refugee. Many of them are using temporary protected status within their applications where they are describing their citizenship.
And we allow those applications to come through and we review them, but it’s always important in those particular cases to provide updates. So a personal update in that instance would be, this is my process towards adjusting my status, or any update that would refer back to the citizenship status that is working towards a goal of permanent residency or whatever the case may be in terms of the outcome. So I think those are really important, but we see a lot of… To provide a letter of intent before you are interviewed, I think is a little bit presumptive. I would certainly wait until you’ve applied to a school before you intend to matriculate, because it doesn’t really ring true if you’re going to do an-
Well, you already applied, that’s your intent. [46:57]But I mean, if you’re writing a letter of intent, you’re essentially saying, I’m going to your medical school if given an offer. And at the application phase, what does that say? Does that say we’re your only choice? Or maybe you’ve just given everyone a letter of intent?
We don’t really know what that means. So on the other side of that, if you interview with us and you provide a letter of intent, well, guess what you provide? You provide a lot of detail as to why. This is what I experienced on the interview day. This is what I experienced in my research. This is the feeling I got when I was in person on that interview day. Those are things that resonate with the committee and are, I think, more believable.
So a personal update can really just be anything that the candidate feels they need to share.
We’ve covered a lot here. What advice do you have for applicants interested in applying to Loyola Stritch? Not so much this cycle because I think you’ve given a lot of outstanding advice for that, but they’re looking to 2025 or 2026. What would you recommend to them? [48:08]Well, we see them all the time. As part of recruitment, we have an ASPIRE program with an applicant bootcamp workshop series involved. So we’re looking at candidates who are two years away. Here’s what we basically are trying to help them understand. We’re trying to help them understand, first of all, think about your rationale for wanting to go to medical school, really understand why you want to do this. I mean, obviously, the more you think about that why, the easier it is to share with others. And if you’re sharing it with others who are clinicians, who are educators, they’re going to support your efforts, especially if you’re a good person who is actively engaged in the work that you’re doing, is someone that is service-oriented. Again, this tends to be in that four-year wheelhouse of undergrad, so service is definitely tied to that discernment.
We also talk to them about really the timing of the application, when to determine if you’re ready, but not to force the idea of readiness. One of the presentations that I put together is it just describes all the different things that go into this process, all the different variables of consideration in a committee process. So if you’re laying that out like a map and you’re saying to yourself, I’ve really done a lot of this but not a lot of this, you really got to think about balance, you really got to think about putting it all together.
Obviously, I think in undergrad, you just have to do the things that you’re interested in. I’ve talked to music majors, I’ve talked to athletes, students that actually thought they were going to become athletes or become musicians, and then I think it’s good. I think it’s good that they’ve had the opportunity to really think about another profession, another vocation, another passion that have. But when they come back into this realm and decide that they’re going into medical school or that they want to do medicine, they really have to think more about helping the committee understand why have you made this decision and how are you determined not to change your mind again?
Because now you’ve got an investment of time and money and a process where we give you a seat and you choose not to take it to the fullest extent. Now we’ve missed out on giving someone else that chance. And that’s our goal, is to provide the workforce with physicians. So we want to be sure that you are sure that this is what you want to do. So if they’ve got more time, then really it’s about timing and helping them articulate their motivation, providing them with the resources and tools to do that. We talk about reflective practice a lot in this program. We give them frameworks of reflection. You can apply a framework of reflection to pretty much any part of the application that is contextual. And if you use that consistently, then guess what? The application makes a lot of sense. When you meet that person in an interview, you’re like, “Oh, this is exactly who I thought I was meeting, not someone completely different,” thanks to AI.
So I think having more time, as I said earlier, to really know this is what you want to do and to find the opportunities to involve yourself in a clinical experience, that is paramount because you’re starting to build your network. Those individuals that are helping and guiding you are not lost. They’re going to be part of a collected network over time. These are people that are going to be part of your support team. So you’re starting to build that, and you got to build that really before you get into medical school. It’s not the kind of thing you just start on day one in medical school to build. So those are things we try to really encourage, to get a running start at this process versus a cold start.
Sounds good. Thank you, great advice. What would you have liked me to ask you that I haven’t asked? [52:36]Well, I think one question. I’m always thinking about what candidates are thinking is about common mistakes.
I’ve got counselors who interact with candidates a lot more than I do, and they do reapplicant counseling. And they’re always talking about, first, where’s the information coming from? What’s building the information base for the candidate? And in many cases just like I mentioned earlier, it’s not fact-based. It’s a student. It’s a social media site. It’s something that was crowdsourced, something that’s not actually evidenced or factually based in an institution. And I had the experience earlier today of talking to an accepted candidate where I started hearing a lot of misinformation. So I think that’s the most common mistake, is really not getting the advice from the source. And I recognize a lot of medical schools are really hard to interact with. We tend not to be that way. I mean, we try really hard not to be that way. But of course, there’s probably someone out there listening that said, “I emailed D Nabers three months ago, and he never responded.”
Well, it’s probably because I didn’t see the email. But no, we try to be transparent, and I think that pre-meds have to, if they don’t have advising, they really have to find a mechanism of advice and resource that is tied to medicine, or more importantly, tied to medical school application that they can trust. I think the other mistake that they’re making, and this is a collective thing as well, is just in the anxiousness, the anxiety that my counselors are seeing, and a lot of it is because when they talk to candidates, candidates are really focusing on what everyone else is doing. So the perfect example is the candidate that is taking the MCAT this month to apply in the upcoming cycle. I always say, know what’s on your application. Know what’s every part of your application before you apply. And the question they’re getting is, “Well, should I apply and then take the MCAT?”
And ultimately, why would you do that? Because you don’t know what the MCAT result is, and now you’ve got an application you spent money on, it’s already out there. But when they dive into why the candidates are feeling that way or why they want to do that despite the fact that they should wait is that because they feel the anxiety, they feel the pressure, they feel the need to move things forward. So again, I would just, I say it a lot, but everyone that’s applying to medical school is young. And I know what AMCAS says, I think they said there was a 61-year old that applied.
I would even tell that person. That person probably did a lot of evidence, a lot of soul-searching to get to that point. They’re probably more ready than maybe someone at 22 or 23. So what is the principle here? Well, the principal thing is readiness and timeliness, and it can’t be on someone else’s schedule. It has to be on your schedule. So that’s what you really need to feel comfortable about if you get pressure from any source, whether it’s parents advising social media to throw an application out there, no it’s not ready, then you just got to use your own judgment and not do it. But you’ll know when you’re ready. You’ll absolutely know it. And trust me, that’s the best position to be in, because you have all the choices to make when that cycle is over, and it’s not that you’re settling for anything at the end.
A previous guest gave me the quote, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” And I just loved it. It was Mike Woodson who said it on a previous podcast. I’m sure you know him. And apparently, Teddy Roosevelt originally said it. I think it’s true, and I think for medical school applicants, if you’re looking at what your peers are doing more than what you should be doing, you’re in trouble. Whether it’s what your peers are doing or your cousin did, or your girlfriend or boyfriend, it may not be right for you. So you’ve got to figure out what’s right for you. [57:02]I always say, less FOMO, more JOMO, right? FOMO being the fear of missing out, versus JOMO being the joy of missing out.
The joy of missing out is that you’re on the journey and you’re insulated in your cocoon. There’s much more positive joy in that than being on the FOMO train. And it’s not one of those things we can really vet, unfortunately. I mean, we’re doing our best, but I think, again, behaviors tend to predict that. How candidates write about their own personal stories and motivations helps us to understand that. And this is something I say at the White Coat Ceremony. I’m always talking about trying to mitigate FOMO and the fear of missing out and trying to suppress the social media.
You’re going to have your peers who graduated from high school. Yeah, they’re going to be getting married and having lives and you’re going to be a student, but there’s joy in that. There’s a great joy and possibility of what the outcome is for you, because you know what? You can still get married and you can still have children, you can still have that big house. But you’re going to be doing something that you love the rest of your life. There’s great joy in that. So try to find the joy in the experience, and I know it can be difficult if you don’t like standardized testing.
Who does? Nobody likes it. Nobody likes being tested or evaluated, period. [59:20]It’s part of life. It’s definitely part of medical school.
Darrell, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. This has been delightful. I’ve really enjoyed connecting with you again and hearing your perspective. [59:35]Relevant Links:
- Loyola Chicago Stritch School of Medicine
- Accepted’s Med School Acceptance Calculator
Related shows:
- Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, podcast Episode 571
- Tulane Medical School: How to Get In, podcast Episode 569
- Start Medical School in 2025 How to Get Accepted This Year, podcast Episode 567
- What You Need to Know to Apply to Medical School, podcast Episode 561
- All You Need to Know about the New Frist College of Medicine, podcast Episode 558
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Show SummaryKatherine Scannell, Vice Dean for Institutional Success at Washington University in St. Louis School of Law, discusses the distinctive elements of WashU’s JD program. She highlights the individualized focus on students’ career goals and the broad areas of expertise that students can specialize in. Dean Scannell emphasizes the importance of early career services and guidance for students before they start law school. She also talks about WashU’s response to the growth of AI in the legal world. Listeners will learn about the interview process at WashU and hear Dean Scanell’s advice. Dean Scannell shares her thoughts on the importance of networking and building relationships with lawyers and professionals in the field and offers her tips on how to do this thoughtfully.
Show NotesThanks for joining me for this, the 579th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
Now for today’s interview. I’m delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Dean Katherine Scannell, Vice Dean for Institutional Success at Washington University in St. Louis. Dean Scannell earned her bachelor’s degree from Wash U and her JD from the University of Missouri. She practiced law for several years and then joined Washington University in St. Louis Law School, becoming first Assistant Dean of Career Services and then Associate Dean of Admissions and today she is the Vice Dean for Institutional Success at Washington University in St. Louis School of Law. Since 2009, she has also been a Lecturer in Law at Wash U.
Dean Scannell, thank you for joining me for Admissions Straight Talk. [2:05]Thank you for having me. I’m so happy to be here.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of WashU’s JD program? [2:14]Yes. So WashU’s program is interesting, because we have so many broad areas of expertise that you can kind of focus on, and we really focus individually with each student to think about their career goals. We start that even before students start law school. So this summer, we’re working with the class that’ll be coming in in the fall to help educate them on the possibilities, what they can do with their law degree, and just let them hit the ground running.
So I think that’s unique, how we start early, and then we have a lot of very individualized opportunities at WashULaw in the educational experience and to support their long-term career goals, because most students are coming to law school to practice law, right?
So we want to help them understand what all the paths are, and that can help shape the classes, the courses they take here. We do a lot of interdisciplinary work that is interesting, like our Cordell Institute in law and medicine. And so, we collaborate with our highly ranked medical school here to think about policy, privacy, and data issues. So things like that we’ve really dug in that provide interesting experiences for our students and educational opportunities.
Wonderful. I’m actually very impressed that you started out with the idea of career services before they even start. I don’t think I’ve gotten that answer from any law school admissions dean. I’m a big believer in graduate school, in general, being a means to an end. That implies you have to have some idea of what “end” you want, and law is an incredibly broad field. I think it’s fantastic that you provide that guidance, even before somebody steps foot on campus. [3:58]That has been a very unique and very important part of our mission in the Career Center. And I should say in the admissions office, even when we’re talking with students about why law school, they may not know exactly why law school at that point. Some of them know more than others, and we kind of get the full spectrum, but we start to talk with them about the things that can open doors in their careers. And we do recruit a large contingent of first-generation students, and those students… I was a first-generation college student. And so, from a personal standpoint, I know that it’s really hard when you don’t know what you don’t know.
Our Career Center has helped educate our admissions office on some questions to ask and things to talk about even early in that admissions cycle, and even with students who may not end up at WashU, but hopefully, we’re helping educate them in the whole process.
You mentioned the breadth of offerings at WashU, and that was something that struck me when I was preparing for our call. I also noticed that you have three certificate programs, one in public interest law, one in business and corporate law, and one in international and comparative law. Can you discuss those programs for a second? [5:48]Sure. We try to bring in students with a wide range of interests. Like I said, they often change their minds once they’re here, and that’s totally fine. But we do like to bring in students with varying backgrounds and varying goals, and we think that adds to the educational experience, really elevates the educational experience, those different perspectives.
So we give the opportunity for students. As you mentioned, JD is very broad. You can do so many things with the JD. And so, we do give the opportunity for students who know they want to get some extra coursework and specialize in those areas to do that during their JD programs. So they’ll have a number of classes that they have to take that are designated in those different bucket areas to obtain those certificates. We also have LLM programs that our students can obtain, and some of them you can obtain in the three years. You can get a joint JD/LLM.
Tax is one of those. You can get a joint JD/Tax LLM. We have an LLM with a concentration in negotiation and dispute resolution. And that one you can also do in that three years.
I’m in Los Angeles, so I’m on the other coast. How does WashU’s location in St. Louis affect the learning experience and job opportunities, obviously you’re very career-focused, of its graduates? I mean, I normally fly over St. Louis. Can WashU law grads go to the coasts? [7:26]Absolutely. Most of our students end up outside… So we are a very national school. Our students, typically summers and postgrad, go to over 30 states and several countries. And so, our students are going everywhere. It fluctuates year to year what our second-largest placement will be. It might be New York. It might be D.C. It might be Chicago. I mean, they’re all pretty big, and it fluctuates each year. It’s exciting. So you’re one of our challenges, right?
Really, though, when students are thinking about coming to WashULaw, we like to get them here so that they can see the campus and see the benefits of St. Louis as the place to go to law school and where it can take you, because even during the three years, the six semesters, many of our students will do the externship in D.C., which has been around for, I think, almost 50 years now.
And the externship in New York, we have… I mentioned being individualized earlier, and this is part of that. We have a semester-in-practice program. So if there’s an organization doing the exact type of work that’ll help prepare you for your postgraduate work, that can be anywhere in the world for a whole semester.
We have a lot of states and countries represented in our JD class. And then we find that a lot of those individuals do go to locations, not necessarily where they were from, but go to locations outside of St. Louis after, although I have to say our people from the coasts sometimes get to St. Louis and think, “Wow, quality of life here is great.” And sometimes our Midwesterners leave and go to the coast, and our coast people come and decide to stay. So it’s fun.
I have some kids who’ve gone to smaller places than Los Angeles, and they’re very happy there because of the quality of life. It’s just a reality. [10:05]Yes. Yes.
How is WashU responding to the growth of AI and its impact on the legal world? [10:17]Yeah. That is fast, right? It’s just exploding. I mentioned our Cordell Institute earlier, and that’s certainly a space where we’re looking at privacy issues and data issues, policy as related to healthcare. So that is an incredibly interesting center for us. And then we have some faculty like Professor Pauline Kim, does work in looking at algorithms and AI in the labor and employment space primarily. A number of our faculty are using big data in their scholarship as well. So we are certainly looking from a legal scholarship perspective. A number of our faculty are diving into that space. You may have been asking from a student perspective.
I was thinking more like lawyers if they wanted to do research. In the last 40 years, you had LexisNexis which definitely saved people a lot of time. But with AI coming, it’s changing so much, whether writing briefs, adapting templates that lawyers frequently use, or doing research saying. [11:23]Yes, it is, but we don’t want to depend on it. So I think we have kind of dug into… We’re not ignoring it, but we don’t want to depend on it. And our legal practice and legal research courses are very intense, and we don’t have the students using AI to produce that work product. Right now, I think, I mean, you’ve probably read some of the articles, but you can really get yourself into some trouble if you’re not careful. And so, I think that our approach is a little more on that side of things. Yeah.
And you’re just watching how things develop. [12:28]Absolutely, and watching what law firms expect. So our Career Center works very closely with law firms to see what the skill sets that they expect to see in their summer associates and new associates. So as law firms utilize different tools more and more, we bring that back to the law school and think about how best to make sure our students are prepared.
Let’s turn to the application. WashU says that applicants may apply with the GRE, but if they have an LSAT, the LSAT will be used. Does that policy reflect a preference for the LSAT very bluntly? [12:59]Not necessarily, but transparently, most of our students have an LSAT.
It’s a small percentage, always a percentage every year that have the GRE instead. A little bit, but not dramatically. And it’s not necessarily a preference for the LSAT, but we will use all the pieces of data. So if they took the LSAT, we’re not going to ignore it. And the ABA, we report the LSAT to the American Bar Association. So it’s not something that we would just want to pretend like it’s not there. It gives us another data point.
But we do have an interesting program at WashULaw where applicants can ask that their LSAT score be redacted for purposes of the admissions committee. Now, we obviously have to see it later and have to report it, but the admissions committee could admit a student, an applicant based on everything else in their file is so amazing.
And before looking at the LSAT, they may put some parameters on that sometimes, like, “It can’t be below this,” or it just depends on each individual circumstance. But there is an opportunity for applicants if they feel that the LSAT detracts from the rest of their application to ask that their application be reviewed without access to that score.
Wow. And then, obviously, they have to have the GRE, right? [14:51]Well, they have to have the LSAT or GRE, but we’re just saying that the committee wouldn’t see it when making the decision about whether to admit.
Are you considering the JD-Next at all? [15:08]We have. We did ask for approval. And so, we’ve been approved to consider JD-Next candidates, and we’ll consider those. I don’t know how many we’ll get, but I think that approval just, I want to say, came through in the last few months.
I know it’s very new. We’ve been talking a little bit about academics, and we’ll continue to talk about academics, but there’s experience or there’s experiential learning that goes on when somebody has a job or responsibilities or joins a team. What kind of experience, either during college or full-time after college, is good preparation for Washington University School of Law? [15:30]Let’s see. A lot of different experiences can be good, so I don’t want to discount experiences.
I think having to interact with different types of people is a good experience for WashULaw. We value that. We value non-law experiences on that note. Sometimes students who really had to overcome some particular hardships, those can be great experiences to bring that resilience. I know it’s overused, resilience, but resilience is important. Law school’s hard. And so, students who bring that kind of experience, I think, are very helpful.
Students who are curious. We do look for kind, because you can be very passionate about your perspective, but we really want to create a culture of kindness and respect. So we look for that in the process. Legal experience can be great, not necessary.
But there’s something that if you’ve worked in a law firm, you have a little bit of context coming into law school, especially if you don’t know lawyers, you don’t have lawyers in your family. A little bit of that legal experience can provide you some context that I think can be a benefit.
Do you like people with full-time work experience post-college? [17:16]We do. So most of our students… I’m sorry, I should have started there, but most of our students do have some full-time work experience after college before coming to law school.
What addenda does WashU accept, and which applicants should write them? [17:37]Our prompts are very broad, and that’s intentional. We probably fall down a little bit more, maybe even than some other schools, on wanting to know more about each of the applicants. So we welcome addenda on any number of topics. It could be experiences that you didn’t feel you got to fully describe in other parts of your application.
It could be something about why your grades were so low in undergrad, or some context to questions that you… If you think we’re going to ask the question, we encourage you to write an addenda about it so that you can answer it for us and we don’t have to wonder. So we encourage students to really provide as much information as they feel comfortable and as they would feel comfortable talking about with us in their application.
Are you planning any changes to the application for next year? The requirements, the essays, addenda, or anything else. [18:51]We’re working on that right now, but I don’t anticipate any major changes in the application this year.
WashU’s 1L class had a 173 median LSAT and a 3.95 median GPA. You can’t get much higher in either one of those numbers. Obviously, the stats are important, but my guess is that you admit people with lower stats and reject people with higher stats. So what makes the difference? [19:11]Absolutely. It is not a formula. It is a discussion about every candidate, and the committee has such hard decisions to make, because so many people who, I’m sure, could be fantastic at WashULaw don’t get an admission. So the thing that can make the difference is maybe a unique experience or perspective. It’s hard to say any one thing. I mean, we value strong writing. We value professional engagement. I mentioned that we look for kindness. We like ambitious students, but you can be incredibly ambitious and talented and kind and respectful. That’s a very important piece for us. We want students from different geographic locations, different countries. We’ll often have about 10 countries represented in the 1L class. And so, we’re kind of looking just to balance all of that out and create the best mix of students in the 1L class as we can.
One of the distinctive aspects of the WashU application process or admissions process for law school at least, is the interview. Most law schools don’t interview. Some do, so it’s not unique, but it is a minority. Who is invited to interview, and what can the interviewee expect? [20:53]The committee decides who to invite to interview, and it’s typically candidates that they want to find out a little bit more about. And so, they do it in waves, and it’s not everybody at once, because we can only interview so many people at once.
But they hope to get to know the candidate outside of the paper a little bit more. And so, all of the interviews at WashU are done by our admissions team, and that’s a little bit unique even for some schools who do interviews. At least that’s my understanding. Some schools will have alums do interviews, but the committee does ask us, “What did we learn in the interview? What was your impression of this person, and how do you think they would fit in our community?” And things like that.
So we do all the interviews so that we can have consistent feedback for the committee that’s valuable in the process. So we do all of the interviews. In the interviews, the applicant should be themselves. I know it’s hard not to be nervous, but be yourself. And we know that candidates get nervous, so we take that into account. Be authentic in their answers.
Relax? [22:39]Yeah. Although don’t be too relaxed.
We’ve had candidates who show up in basically their pajamas, and we’re thinking, “It doesn’t really matter what your LSAT is, right?”
We have a judgment issue. I don’t think that happens a lot, but you want to be professional. You’re coming to a professional school. You are entering this profession where you want to be honest and authentic and professional in your behavior. So be relaxed, and don’t be overly nervous, but do think about how you will be perceived, and then think about some questions.
We are going to give you an opportunity, just like in an interview, to ask us questions, and we want to know that you want to be here. And so, think about some questions ahead of time that demonstrate that you’ve done a little bit of research and you want to be here. You don’t have to spend hours and hours, but it’s pretty easy to find a few things on our website typically that you could ask about.
Is it possible to get admitted without being interviewed, or are all accepted students interviewed? [24:05]It is possible to get admitted without being interviewed, but usually, I would say… This is when it might be possible. If that applicant has had other types of engagement with us, the committee might not feel that they need to ask them to interview.
So it’s not a required piece, and there are many opportunities to engage with our office. And we may know you really well already, and then that applicant may not be asked to interview.
I assume the interviews are virtual? [24:50]Yes.
Is the interview based on the application? In other words, is it questions that the admissions committee has about the applicant based on the application, or is it more behavioral in general? [24:58]It’s a mix, and every interview is not exactly the same.
So some of it’s driven by the applicant and by the information in the application. We always read the application and have questions based on the application before the interview, and then we may have some behavioral questions about biggest failure or along those lines. And then we have some time for the applicant to ask us some questions.
We’ve discussed AI in terms of students using AI. What do you think of applicants using ChatGPT to assist them in the application process, specifically the writing process? [25:52]We would prefer they not.
Writing is such an important part of law school. We do ask on our application, “Did you use AI in preparing this application?” And the applicant can answer yes, and then we ask, “How did you use AI?” So we have some who answer yes, most answer no. A lot say, “I used something like Grammarly.” We think it’s important that we have a genuine assessment of the skills and the writing, and things like that. So we would prefer they not or minimally use AI. Yes.
I recently had occasion to write something. I mean, nothing to do with admissions or Accepted. And I just said, “Please edit this.” It came back. I absolutely hated it. I just threw it out, went back to what I wrote, and did my own editing. [26:51]Yes. I find that pretty frequently, so I don’t feel like AI is there yet for some of the things.
It’s not the cat’s meow. Some things, like for smaller tasks, I found it useful. But just, “Go write something for me,” or “Rewrite what I’ve written,” it was awful.
Does WashU consider update letters from applicants who have something significant to tell you after they submit their application and before hearing back from you, after the interview, or if wait-listed? At what point is that welcome? [27:32]It is always welcome at WashU.
We have a very fluid, back-and-forth conversation with the applicants, and encourage them to reach out to us. Even if they don’t have a substantive update on their end, we try to put ourselves in their shoes. And it’s really hard. You hear, “Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.” And then it’s like, “Hurry up and wait.” Right?
And when you’re not in the middle of it, just looking at it from the applicant’s perspective, it can just feel like, “What’s happening over there? And why did that person get admitted but I didn’t yet?”
So we really encourage applicants to reach out anytime, even if it’s just like, “I just want to see what’s happening.” And we may not have much to tell them yet, but that’s okay. So I don’t want them to call us every day. That might not be good, but use your judgment. We do encourage them to reach out with substantive updates, and even just to check in is completely fine.
This show should air in a few weeks. I don’t know when you close your waitlist, but there might still be some wait-listed applicants. What advice do you have for those currently on the waitlist or perhaps on it next year? [29:10]For applicants who are on the waitlist, again, we encourage them to reach out. We’re happy to talk through options. If they have any substantive updates, obviously let us know. One thing I think it’s important for wait list applicants to think about is, “How long do I want to stay on the waitlist?” It’s not often, but sometimes there is a very, very late opportunity that someone had personal issues and they had to pull out of the class.
And so, there could be a very late opportunity. And for some applicants, that’s just going to create additional stress, and we want to respect what they want in this process also. So if they want us, they can tell us how long they want to stay on the wait list. And while they’re on the wait list, we’re happy to speak with them about the other options, if they would like to think about transferring as a 2L. We take a pretty small transfer class typically, but it’s usually individuals we were very impressed with, we got to know during the process the prior year, and then they decide to transfer.
We hope everyone ends up at a law school that they love, and they decide they don’t want to transfer, but sometimes you start somewhere and it’s not the right fit for you. And so then, we encourage them to reach out to us as early as they are thinking about that.
Sounds like great advice. Do you have advice for reapplicants? [31:07]Every cycle is different. And so, we know they can’t create a whole new application. A lot of things are going to be the same. But what’s going to be important is what’s happened in the past year since they first applied, and how they productively used that year will be important. So you always want to update your application and make it clear how you’ve worked to make your application a little stronger in that year.
I often get a question along these lines, “You know, I applied. I thought my personal statement was really good. I thought my LSAT was low. I retook my LSAT. I got a much higher score. I really don’t want to rewrite my personal statement.” How would you respond to that? [31:55]We’re probably going to look at your application from last year and look at the application from this year. So it’s kind of like a waste if you didn’t use your personal statement to tell us even more great stuff about you.
I mean, it gives you kind of another shot at, “You know this about me, and now I can tell you even more about myself in this context.”
WashU’s stated regular decision deadline is January 3rd. Do you accept applications after that date since that’s fairly early in the cycle? Is the deadline staying the same next year? [32:57]We really continue to accept applications. We encourage applications early, because we have a rolling process. And so, the committee is going to admit some candidates early, and we think it’s best if you can be in the mix as early as possible. We even encourage applicants who haven’t taken the LSAT or the GRE yet to get their application in and then supplement with those scores later. So we do encourage early, but we don’t have a hard-and-fast… I mean, obviously, once we’ve set the class, we’re not going to take more applications, but we will accept applications even into the summer.
And sometimes it’s hard to predict how the class is going to fall out. We say that there aren’t so many seats left at this point. Right? Maybe none, but it doesn’t hurt to apply. You’re not looked down on for applying this year if you want to give it a shot. So there’s no real downside, and then you can apply again next year if it doesn’t work out.
What advice do you have for those planning ahead to apply either this cycle, in other words, fall 2024, or really planning ahead for fall 2025 or later? [34:57]Study for whichever test you’re going to take.
It just opens doors. It’s like what I say, open as many doors as you can. So get to know the schools, and talk with lawyers, if you can, and talk with the schools. We have a lot of opportunities through WashU to learn about careers if you’re a prospective law student, to learn about the application process, to do workshops.
If you have that time, really take advantage of that to make your application the very best it can be. You have this extra time to start thinking about it. I always say talk with lawyers, but do be cautious that some lawyers, who have been out as long as I have and are not in higher ed right now, have a different perspective on how things work. So make sure, listen to everyone, make connections, build your network. Building your network is something that you should always be doing, and you can always learn something from everyone you speak with, even if it is, “I never want to do that kind of law.”
It’s quite valuable. And it’s fun to get to know people and learn something about them. So the more you do that, I think the better position you are coming into law school, in many ways. So that’s my advice, and have fun with it, though. Don’t make it a chore. Just have fun with it.
I think that’s wonderful advice. What was going through my head, though, is sometimes when you talk about networking or building a network, there’s a certain unpleasantness to it. It’s like you’re almost using people. How can you build a network constructively in a human and kind way? [37:02]Yes. As soon as the word “network”, because it does still come out of my mouth, but I do feel like it has this connotation to it that is not what I intend.
It’s actually really fun, especially in that period where you’re not looking for a job, to get to know people and learn. So we encourage our students to do informational meetings.
And you don’t have an ask, and we also encourage students to keep them short. And I would say this for prelaw also, when you’re in that space and you haven’t started law school yet. Just ask if you can speak with someone for 10 minutes. Everyone is so busy. Have a few great questions, and don’t take more time than that, because then they’ll want to talk with you next time you call too.
And if you authentically are interested in what they do, it doesn’t feel like you’re using them. It can be a really great experience for both the attorney and for the individual, the future attorney, who’s asking the questions. Often, attorneys like to talk about themselves and their work. They’re usually pretty excited about that. And so, you can just learn something. And hopefully, everyone who’s coming to law school likes to learn. So I look at it that way, and follow up authentically with updates. They would love to know.
And thank-yous. When you decide where to go to law school, let them know. And just short emails, keeping them updated. And if you really don’t connect with someone, you don’t have to pretend. Meet people and let those professional relationships grow organically.
I think this is a really good point. I once had somebody on the podcast who’d written a book about coffee chats. It was a Stanford Graduate School of Business alum, and he and another student had written this book, and it was like, “Invite somebody out for coffee. Invite them out for lunch if they have the time, and you’re willing to do it,” or you say, “Ask for a 10-minute call. Be appreciative. Be kind. Maybe you can help them with something.” It doesn’t always have to be taking, taking, taking. Try and be a giving person in the relationship also. [39:39]Absolutely. And even with coffees, I say offer to take them to coffee, but also offer to go to their office. That’s the easiest thing for them. Bring them the coffee, because even just leaving the office to go meet at a coffee shop can sometimes be a bit of a burden when you’re working really hard and trying to bill all those hours.
So I try to always be respectful of the requests. And also provide some information about yourself. I encourage students to say, “So that you’ll have some background about me, I’ve attached my résumé, not because I’m asking you for a job, it’s just because I want you to know a little bit about me.” And so, not have any real ask out of it other than the 10 minutes.
Great advice. Thank you so much. Katie, I think we’re almost out of time. I want to respect your time, and I want to thank you again for joining me and sharing your expertise and your insight into WashU Law School. Where can listeners learn more about Washington University in St. Louis School of Law? [41:09]So you can email our office. You can call if you want to be old school about it. We are happy to receive a phone call. You can go to our website, which is https://law.wustl.edu/. We have workshops on Discord. We have live Zoom programs all year long with our Career Center and with our admissions office, and we have one of our best resources, I think, our one-on-one consultations. You don’t have to say you want to apply here. You don’t have to. If you just want help with how to apply to law school or how to learn more about law school, you can do a one-on-one consultation with one of our admissions ambassadors. They can even look over your personal statements. They’re current students who have been trained. We don’t want the people in the admissions office to be giving that direct advice, because that doesn’t seem appropriate. But they are happy to speak with prospective law students just about what it means to be in law school. You can just ask any questions, and they’ll give you their take on, from their perspective, what their experience has been.
Relevant Links:
- Washington University in St. Louis School of Law Admissions
- Are You Ready for Law School? (Accepted’s free Law School Admissions Quiz)
Related Shows:
- How to Get into USC Gould School of Law, podcast Episode 573
- JD-Next: A Great Option for Law School Applicants, podcast Episode 562
- How to Get into the University of Chicago Law School, podcast Episode 559
- Navigating the Law School Admissions Process, podcast Episode 550
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Show SummaryIn this episode, Linda Abraham discusses successful secondary applications for medical school. She highlights the key differences between primary and secondary applications and provides 6 tips for submitting a successful secondary application. Additionally, Linda offers practical advice on when to submit and how to write concisely to meet word or character limits as well as how to check these crucial documents before you hit SUBMIT.
Show NotesWelcome to the 578th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in.
Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Med School Admissions Quiz will give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you will not only get an assessment of your chances, but tips on how to improve them. And it’s all free.
Today is going to be a solo show, and we’re going to be discussing successful secondaries. Given that the show is airing on May 28th and AMCAS is just starting to process the primary applications today, I think the show is extraordinarily timely.
You can’t submit your secondaries yet if you don’t have them, but for those of you who submitted or will submit early, in other words, your primary application sometime in June, this show really couldn’t be better timed. For those of you planning to submit later in the cycle, you can take advantage of it as soon as you submit your primary applications, and there may be even a tip or two for you regarding the primary in the course of the show.
So if you are in either group, perhaps you submit it today or will submit very shortly, or perhaps you’re the parent or significant other of someone in either of these two groups, in other words, somebody submitting early or somebody submitting later in this cycle, congratulations, you or a very important person to you is progressing down the path to medical school and achievement of his or her career dreams.
Now, applicants still have a long, grueling journey in front of them, but the next leg consists of the secondary applications, and that’s the topic of today’s show, which as I mentioned, I’m going to present. It’s going to be a solo show.
Going back to the timeliness part of the show, once you have submitted your primary, give yourself a day or two off. Don’t even think about medical school applications. If you have to study, study for school. If you can take a break, take a break, go to the beach, go for a hike, do whatever you love to do, and then start pre-writing your secondaries. You had your break, get back to business.
Secondary application questions tend to change little from year to year, and one thing that is very consistent is that they come in a deluge, and if you can have drafts of essays ready for final tweaks for the programs that you are most interested in, especially if those programs automatically send out secondaries without any screening, you’ll have a much easier time when those secondary applications start raining down upon you. And your essay responses – your applications – will probably be of better quality if at least some or most of those essays are pre-written and written at a time when you don’t have the time pressure you’re inevitably going to experience when the deluge starts.
Primary vs. secondary applications [3:51]Now, let’s start by discussing conceptually what secondary applications are and the similarities and differences between them and the primary applications that you have been working so hard on or will be shortly working so hard on. For those of you new to the process, for MD applicants, secondary applications are sent out after medical schools have received your AMCAS or your primary application.
It could be the AACOMAS, the TMDSAS… Actually, I think TDMDSAS doesn’t send secondaries. It does it simultaneously. But for MD applicants, secondary applications are sent out after medical schools have received your primary. Some screen and will only send out secondaries to those they’re interested in proceeding down the process with, and some send them out automatically. They want the complete information before they decide whether to move forward or not.
Secondary applications typically contain from one to eight, I think even one school has 11 essays. One might be long. Most of them are usually pretty short, but there’s a lot of writing involved. That’s the bottom line. The purpose of the secondaries, like the primary, secondary application that asks for more information or that asks for more than a fee from you, they will all ask for a fee, is trying to learn more about you, is trying to get to know you, and your job is to help them get to know you, to help them get to know you as a multi-dimensional, interesting, knowledgeable human being.
In this regard, the secondaries are very similar to the AMCAS, the primary application, the personal statement that you’ve already written, the most meaningful experience essays and whatever other writing, the impactful experience essay that you may have written for the primary application, and of course the experience sections.
4 key differences [5:29]However, there are four key differences between secondary applications and primary applications. I think it’s really important for you to understand these key differences.
- A secondary application should show fit with a specific school [5:40]Number one, the purpose of the secondary is to show fit with a specific school, the school that’s sending you the secondary application. The goal of your AMCAS application is to show your fitness and motivation for being a physician. So yeah, they still want to know that you’re going to be a physician, that you’re interested in being a physician and that you’re going to make a great physician, but the question in their minds is why this school and why should we admit you to this school.
And to achieve the goal of showing that you are really a fit for that particular school, youone, have to show that you appreciate that school’s approach to medical education, that it fits you. You have to show that your goals as a physician align with the school’s strength. So if you’re interested in primary care, are you interested in research? Are you interested in urban medicine or rural medicine? Whatever interests you or attracts you should be a strength of the schools that you are applying to.
And then you should show fit with the school’s mission. Now, some of you say those missions all sound alike. There’s some truth to that, but then again, applicants all sound alike too. So in that respect, I think you have mirror image kinds of problems. But regardless, to the extent that you can show fit with the school’s mission, whether it’s research or social justice or whatever, you’re going to be ahead of the game.
For those of you still working on your AMCAS application or perhaps doing school research, attending school events, et cetera, take notes, jot down what you like about specific schools and organize those notes either by files or a spreadsheet or you can use a tool like Evernote, Keep or whatever tool you find most useful, but as you’re doing your school research, take notes, again, if you’re still doing it, and you probably should continue to do it throughout the process. Take notes that you can have those notes available to you. Again, it will save you time. That’s difference number one. The purpose of the application is to show fit with the school as opposed to the profession, which is the primary.
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A secondary application must answer a specific question [7:43]Number two, the second difference, you must answer the specific question posed. It’s very different from the personal comment section or even the MMEs, which are not tied to a specific school or program and really give you a lot of latitude in terms of what you want to include in your written materials for the primary.
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A secondary application should complement a primary application [8:01]The third key difference. You want your essays to complement and build on the stories and experiences discussed in the primary application. Ideally, you can discuss different experiences, but if you discuss an experience that you have included in the primary, you’re going to need to go into greater depth or to approach that experience from a different angle and perspective, perhaps highlight a different aspect of the experience.
Paraphrasing or repeating the material found in your AMCAS is a wasteful mistake. It bores the reader. It makes you seem a little smaller as a human being, like you don’t have more to write about, you haven’t accomplished as much as the person who has more to write about, and again, it’s a waste of time for you and for them. You can also write about something that has happened since you submitted the primary or that happened earlier and isn’t in the primary application. Again, that would be probably the ideal if you can do it.
- A secondary application has time pressure [8:55]And the fourth key difference, depending upon when you do your primary application, but for most of you, you’ve known the primary application is coming for months and you’ve been preparing for months. With the secondaries, you don’t have months, you have weeks. Ideally, you want to return that secondary within two weeks. So the fourth difference is that you’re going to have time pressure.
6 commandments for a successful secondary application [9:15]And these similarities and differences mean that you have six, not 10, relax, just six commandments for your secondary application.
- Number one, help them get to know you. Now, that’s already something that you’ve been trying to do with your primary. Help them get to know you more.
- Number two, show that you appreciate the school’s approach to medical education. If it’s team-based learning, provide evidence that you’ve been on teams. If it’s problem-based learning, provide evidence that you like to be a problem solver. Whatever it is, provide evidence that you are going to thrive in their environment.
- Three, demonstrate that your goals align with the school strengths. I mentioned that a minute ago.
- Four, make sure you answer the question posed, not the one from a different secondary application that you filled out yesterday and not the one that you feel like answering, like you kind of could do with a personal statement or some of the MMEs, but answer the question posed.
- Five, you want to complement and build on the stories and experience discussed in the primary application, and you actually want to make sure that if you’re dealing with a secondary application that has multiple essay questions, that those essays complement each other. You want to minimize overlap. Again, the commandment is complement and build on the stories and experiences discussed in the primary application. And if you can use new experiences, that’s where the complementing comes in. That’s with an E “complement,” not with an I “compliment.”
- And the sixth commandment is return essays promptly, ideally within two weeks of receipt. Now, you might think, “If I get one application, I can return that in two weeks. That’s not so hard.” That’s true, but you are probably applying to 20 medical schools and if you get secondary applications from all of them, or even if you get from 15 of them, and they come within a two-week period and you want to return them within a two-week period, you’ve got a lot of writing to do. And it’s important writing.
Dividing a secondary application into 3 categories [11:10]Now, you can divide secondary essay questions into three broad categories, those about you, those about the school, and those about the intersection between you and the school, and maybe there’s always a little bit of intersection, but the third category is more explicit about it.
- Questions about you [11:26]The questions about you, for example, some schools ask for, UCSD, for example, for one long autobiographical essay or they might ask for several short questions about you. UCSD asks for an autobiographical sketch of up to 6,000 characters, which is a little longer than your personal statement in your AMCAS application. Other questions could ask about challenges or difficulties that you face. For example, Pitt asked or used to ask, all the questions are from last year, by the way, because they haven’t come out with the secondaries this year, “Tell us about a challenging problem you faced and how you resolved it. Include how the experience contributed to the person you are today, 250 words or less.” Obviously, you have to be succinct. We’ll get to that in a little bit.
Others will ask about hobbies, and they’re looking to see how you can be a contributing member to their community outside the classroom and those kinds of questions. In responding to these questions about you, you want to include information not provided in the AMCAS or other parts of this secondary. I know I’m repeating myself, but it bears repeating.
If the perfect experience to respond to a question is in the AMCAS application, approach it from a slightly different angle or provide greater depth or provide some more details that you couldn’t include in the AMCAS, but don’t just repeat what’s in the AMCAS application. I repeat, I’m going to repeat now, don’t repeat what’s in the primary. Provide complementary information.
You can cover the formative and revealing events from your childhood, adolescence and adulthood. However, don’t write exclusively or primarily about childhood and adolescent experiences. Your risk coming off as immature and raising the question, what have you been doing lately? What have you been doing in college? What have you done since college if you’re out of it already?
So yeah, you can definitely include a formative experience or two from childhood and adolescence, but most experiences should be from college and later and the older you are, the farther out from college, the more it should focus on post-college. As I’ve said, again, they want to get to know you as a human being, as a person, as an individual, not just as a student and not just as a volunteer. They’re looking to understand what makes you tick and how you would be as a member of their community.
So what kind of information would you want to include about yourself? Well, one possible approach to these types of questions and this exercise may be useful even before you start your primary applications … remember, I did promise a couple of tips for primary applications … is to create a timeline of your life and influential events, both personal and clinically or medically related.
You can use this timeline or an updated copy of your resume or you can simply make, especially if you’ve been journaling as we recommend, a list. Make a spreadsheet of events and experiences that have been influential, that have been formative, that also reveal perhaps accomplishments that you’ve had, where you’ve contributed, where you’ve learned things you’re proud of that you’d like the admissions committee to know about.
Make a long list. And you can do it on a spreadsheet. You can also put next to it some of the either lessons learned or attributes you revealed with those experiences. And then as you go along, check off the items that you’ve already covered in your primary application. Looking at the list from the remaining items that you’ve not covered, which are related to clinical research work or leadership and community service, which experience will best answer each individual question?
In other words, don’t just start writing. Take a minute and strategize. How am I going to present the most in-depth image of myself via the secondary given the questions I’m responding to, the experiences I’ve had and what I already wrote in the primary? Strategically selecting the activities and events that will reveal more about you as a person, and then for each response, creating an outline using from the short list.
Also, keep in mind this advice from Dr. Mike Woodson, director of Admissions at Tulane who said at a very recent podcast, and we’re going to link to it, “Just be yourself,” I’m quoting now, “Just be yourself. The schools and not just our medical school, they just want to know about the person as an individual. Are they genuine? Are they honest? What are their insights? Why do they do things? But what led you down this path of picking a particular activity and what did you get out of it?”
So again, Dr. Woodson made the statement on a recent Admissions Straight Talk podcast, but many other AST guests, particularly in medical school, but outside of it also, have said that, made very similar points. And the why and the results, both for you and others, are critical in your essays. Again, this is true for both the primary and the secondaries. And for your information, you can find the full interview with Dr. Woodson at accepted.com/569, but I’m going to link to it from our show notes at accepted.com/578.
There are still some schools asking COVID questions. If you get them, keep in mind the following. What they’re looking to see is how did COVID affect you and how did you respond to COVID? I think the second part is actually more important. Tragically, people lost family during COVID. Some were essentially locked up in their homes for a while. There were all kinds of social restrictions, so that’s something that everybody to a certain extent shared that part of the experience. Hopefully not everybody lost a relative.
I think what the schools are looking for more though is how did you respond? How did you respond to the lack of volunteering opportunities? Did you create some for yourself? Did you volunteer at vaccination clinics? What did you do? How did you respond? So that would be my tip for COVID kinds of questions.
- Questions about the school [17:12]The second type of questions that I mentioned are questions about the school and the very basic one is, why do you want to attend school X? For example, or Vanderbilt’s question is, “How did you first become interested in Vanderbilt University School of Medicine? 200 words,” and that’s just a variation of this very common question, “Why this school?” They want to know how much you know about their school and what is important to you at their school.
It’s important to do your research on the programs before responding to these kinds of questions, and hopefully you did your research before deciding where to apply. And I don’t mean just looking up the average MCAT and GPA for specific schools. I mean learning the school’s programs, strengths, weaknesses … well, you wouldn’t learn about the weaknesses on the website, but going to the website, perhaps going to some events, and you took notes on those things, so it’ll be very easy for you to look back at your notes and perhaps link to the pages that are relevant to refresh your memory.
But what are some ways that you can find out more about a school? Well, there’s the mission statement. Don’t miss the obvious. There’s the website and the school social media. Again, that’s pretty obvious. There are pre-med fairs and campus events, and there’s also visiting the schools if it’s geographically feasible, and networking with current and recent students. These are all really valuable ways to get tremendous insight into the different schools. Hopefully you did this before this time of year and before choosing where to apply, and then you kept good notes.
Since space is always limited in these secondary application essays, keep this kind of essay focused. Select only the most relevant and important reasons why you want to attend their medical schools. Most important reasons should include some distinctive aspect of their culture and program. A secondary reason can include proximity to family or something more personal. I would just make sure that before mentioning those elements which are legitimate, mention the professional and educational ones first.
- Questions about you and the school [19:03]And then the essay questions about you and the school, “Such as how will your background enable you to contribute in medical school as a physician?”, that’s asking about both, right? You have to know the school, you have to know your goals, you have to know yourself. And here’s an example of that. “Columbia Vagelos College of Physician and Surgeons values diversity in all its forms. How will your background and experiences contribute to this important focus of our institution and form your future role as a physician?”
The challenge in these questions is that they require that you balance enough details about you and demonstrate what you know about their campus as well as how you would fit in that question. By the way, Columbia’s question is a 300 word max. So again, you’re going to have to be really tight in terms of your writing and very focused in your response. It’s not just wordsmithing. It’s real focus.
So again, in approaching this question and approaching the application as a whole, look at your timeline. Look at the spreadsheet you prepared or your resume, whatever list or tool you have. Focus on what hasn’t been checked off. What distinctive element in your background, identity, experience, or perspective can you contribute? And obviously if you’re checking things off, you’re going to have to have a different list for different schools, right, because you’re going to be checking things off different schools. And yes, you can send the same experience, experience A to school X and to school Y and to school Z, but make sure if you’re using experiences, that you’re using that experience in such a way where you answer the question posed, not the question from the last school.
So you’re looking at your timeline or your spreadsheet and you’re crossing off things that you’ve used. And in terms of the Columbia question, “What distinctive element of your background, identity, experience, or perspective can you contribute? How will you choose to express it, both at Columbia and beyond?” And you may want to adjust some of the experiences in other essays or to adapt some of them.
In other words, if leadership experience also shows diversity, you may decide to choose a different leadership experience for a leadership question because the Columbia medical school application did ask about leadership. That’s why when I suggested my spreadsheet, I said think about the different qualities that the experience reveals, and then you can use them differently as well.
When to submit your secondary application [21:26]All right, now for the sixth commandment, return applications promptly. I already said that ideally you want to return them within two weeks, and if the primary and secondary applications do their jobs, you’ll get an interview invitation. But interview invitations are issued on a rolling basis. In other words, applications are evaluated as they come in, so if you procrastinate on returning secondaries, you might find that there are very few interview spots left. You might find that the reality might be that if you had submitted a couple weeks earlier or within the two-week framework, you would have an interview invitation that you no longer have available because they’ve already given it out.
So it’s really critical that you turn around your secondary applications promptly and without sacrificing quality. You don’t want to turn in a sloppy job. You want to make sure you answer the questions and that you show fit. You want to do all the things that we discussed before, and that’s why I strongly recommend pre-writing secondaries while you’re waiting for your secondary applications to come and after you’ve turned in your primary while AMCAS is verifying your primary.
All right, so we’ve mentioned, and this is true also for the primary application, we’ve mentioned that you’re going to have some very tight either character or word limits. There are techniques that you can use just to tighten your writing. Your content can essentially say the same thing, but it’s going to take up fewer characters and fewer words.
So secondary applications, the primary and secondary are opportunities for you to show that you can write and communicate clearly and concisely whether your essay is longer or shorter. What is the point you are trying to communicate? Make sure your response to a specific prompt, sticks to what has to be said, that you don’t include extraneous detail. Make sure that point, that central point, the central answer is clear and exclude anything that isn’t necessary to make that point.
Writing techniques for a secondary application [23:31]Most secondaries are short, 200, 300, 500 words, so you’re going to have to write concretely. Use sensory language if it’s appropriate and when possible. So example, one night I happened to be … We had some candles. I watched the candle and did it burn? Well, all candles burn. The flame burned, or did it dance? Because it kind of was jumping around. Dance says more.
Quantify whenever possible, especially impact and contribution. You can use metaphors to succinctly make concepts more real and relate them to the familiar. So if somebody tattoos something in their memory, well, that means it’s indelible without plastic surgery. It’s indelible, it’s permanent, or you could say they recorded it permanently in their memory. Well, which is better? Tattooed it in memory is really much more vivid and conveys a lot more succinctly. Essentially what I’m trying to say is you need to put your writing on Ozempic. You need to put it on a diet.
Here’s another few techniques. Use the active voice to save words and characters when you have limits on both. So one could write, “The patient was cured by the doctor.” That’s seven words, or, “The doctor cured the patient.” That’s five words. Says the same thing, just much more concisely. And if you do this throughout an essay, it makes a big difference on the amount of information you can convey.
Another technique is to use verb forms of words instead of nouns or adverbial forms. You could say, “I came to the conclusion…” It’s a perfectly good sentence,” or you could write, “I concluded,” and guess which is a whole lot shorter? “She went hurriedly.” You could just say, “She hurried.” Again, this is just simply these kinds of techniques, this kind of eye to your writing makes it more active, more succinct, more concise, more readable, and will allow you to convey more information when you’re dealing with word limits. So again, get that Ozempic for your writing. Put it on a diet by eliminating unnecessary phrases and words. Here’s another example. “I had the opportunity to serve as an EMT.” You could just say, “I served as an EMT,” or, “I was an EMT.” They all work.
How to check your secondary application [25:48]Once you write your secondaries, especially given the time pressure, you may be tempted to just send them in. That’s a big mistake. You need to check them. And here are my last three tips. I think it’s my last one for checking your secondaries.
Number one, did you address the question and reveal fit with a specific school that’s on a high level? Read your essays. I’d say move away from your desk, print your essays out, move away from your desk and go over them. Read them aloud.
Have you demonstrated alignment between the school strengths and your goals? This doesn’t have to be in every essay, depending upon the question, obviously, but is it there? Have you demonstrated alignment with their approach to medical education? Have you shown that that approach appeals to you and that you’ve thrived in similar settings or with somewhat related challenges?
It’s particularly important if you’re adapting your secondaries from another school’s application, which you’re going to start doing. Make sure that this essay answers this school’s question to test whether your essay answers the question. Either have an accepted consultant review or ask yourself if you could answer the question based solely on information found in your essay.
So that’s one aspect of checking your application.
Step number two, check your essays for grammar, spelling, and style. You want your application to reflect attention to detail and communication ability, not the opposite. In a Q&A that I had years ago, and I’ve heard this from many others since, Jennifer Welch, former admissions dean at SUNY Upstate said, quote, “You are not going to be able to make those mistakes on patient charts, so why are you doing it in an application?” So really just thinking about those things, grammar, spelling, style, punctuation, et cetera. When you are putting it together, it is really imperative. So check for those.
And again, here I think it’s even more important to print out whatever you’ve written, double space it, take a pen, move away from your desk and read it out loud, slowly paying attention to the punctuation so that your reading reflects the punctuation. And if it doesn’t work- –, does something that sounds off – stop, fix it in pen, and then continue, and then go back to your computer, fix it on a computer. If there were a lot of corrections, rinse and repeat. Print it out again, double space, the whole thing and then correct it until you say, “Hey, I think I got this down.”
And the third thing, I know that, again, I’m repeating myself, return your secondaries promptly without compromising quality. Ideally, aim for not more than two weeks after receipt.
So what are successful secondaries? They are well-written, concise, persuasive, promptly returned applications that answer the questions posed, reveal fit or alignment with the school in question, and add to the school’s understanding of you. Can you do it on your own? Can you write those secondaries on your own? Maybe, maybe even probably. But having an experienced, knowledgeable, supportive coach by your side can be extraordinarily helpful.
Results from applicants who worked with Accepted consultants [29:03]Here are the results of an Accepted client who wrote us after working with Accepted consultant Cydney Foote. “I don’t think I would be at the same place today without your help. So out of 20 secondaries, I received 18 interviews. I went to 11. I was accepted to five and wait-listed to four.”
This client is an Asian American who had good stats and a strong but fairly typical profile. Her consultant coached her through the process, including coaching her to overcome shyness in the interviews. Now, while obviously her results were great and the most obvious benefit of working with Accepted, there was another one less tangible but no less important. This client was more confident throughout the process. She was less anxious even during her interviews. She considered herself an introvert and admitted to being very nervous about the interviews before she worked with Cydney Foote.
So you might want to just consider that. There’s a lot of pressure on these things, and this could be money very well spent, especially if you consider the value of an additional year of physician earnings as opposed to waiting additional year if you get rejected.
Final thought or almost final thought. We’ve discussed crucial differences between the primary and the secondary, as well as approaches for the most common kinds of secondary essay questions. We’ve discussed how to craft your writing so you can make the most of every word and every character, every inch of essay real estate, if you will. The client you heard from benefited from having this advice applied to her essays.
If you are interested in getting similar assistance and following her footsteps, please explore our services at accepted.com/medical/services and feel free to schedule a free consultation with any of our consultants.
Relevant Links:
- Med School Free Consultation
- Accepted’s Med School Admissions Quiz
- School Specific Secondary Application Tips
Relevant shows:
- Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, podcast Episode 571
- Tulane Medical School: How to Get In, podcat Episode 569
- Start Medical School in 2025 How to Get Accepted This Year, podcast Episode 567
- Frist College of Medicine, podcast Episode 558
- What You Need to Know to Apply to Medical School, podcast Episode 561
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Show SummaryDr. Sundas Ali, a former Lecturer at the University of Oxford and now an admissions consultant at Accepted, discusses the differences between graduate school admissions in the UK and the US. She explains that while there are some similarities in the application process, such as the importance of personal statements in both countries,there are also several differences. Dr. Ali emphasizes the importance of tailoring personal statements and resumes to each program and university, as well as the significance of strong recommendations from professors. She also advises applicants to start early, do thorough research on the programs they are interested in, and proofread their application materials carefully to avoid common mistakes. Dr. Ali shares her own experience of overcoming challenges and pursuing her dream of studying at Oxford University.
Show NotesWelcome to the 574th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, “Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions“, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you’re well on your way to acceptance. You can download this free guide at accepted.com/fiso.
It is my pleasure to welcome Dr. Sundas Ali to Admissions Straight Talk. Originally from Pakistan, Sundas received both a BS in Economics and Econometrics and an MSc in International Relations from the University of Bristol in the UK and then a PhD in Sociology from the University of Oxford. She worked for several years at the UK Civil Service and, since 2013, served as a Lecturer at the University of Oxford. While at Oxford, she was involved in Oxford’s prestigious PPE (Philosophy, Politics, and Economics) admission process. She has also been involved in teaching high school and college students in rural areas of Pakistan through online platforms as well as guiding them through the college admissions process. At Accepted, Sundas will be working primarily with college and graduate school applicants. The show today will focus on graduate school admissions as always.
Sundas, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk and Accepted. [2:12]Thank you, Linda. It’s a pleasure to be on this podcast today, and I’m absolutely delighted to be a part of the team at Accepted.
I’m delighted to have you both as a part of the team and on the podcast. At Oxford, you worked with students both at Oxford and outside of it who wanted to attend UK graduate programs. Is there some quality or element of the admissions process that is unique to UK universities or to Oxford? Something that non-UK applicants need to adjust to? [2:23]Yes. Having worked with students for over 15 years at Oxford and those outside wanting to apply to the UK, US, and the rest of the world, I think what’s distinct about the UK is quite similar to other countries when it comes to graduate applications. If we were looking at college, that’s quite a difference between the US and the UK. But I find that actually for graduate programs, there’s quite a lot of similarity. For example, the personal statement, the academic statement of personal statement, which is very important when applying for graduate study in the UK. And it’s similarly very important when you’re applying to the US.
So there are a lot of similarities across the board when it comes to graduate study. The degree programs vary. So we have different degree structures in the UK, so you have an MRes, for example, which is a research degree and different types of degrees to the US perhaps, which maybe there are two different types of graduate programs when it comes to masters. But specifically thinking about Oxford and Cambridge, what’s quite different is that when you’re applying to Oxford and Cambridge, you are applying to not just a department, but also a college. So that’s quite a big difference, which my US students who are applying to Oxford had to get used to like, “What is this? We’re applying to a department, but also a college. What does that mean?”
So for example, if you’re applying for a master’s in social policy, so you’d be applying to the social policy department, that’s where your application for that MSc would go. But then you would also be selecting a college on your application, and you can choose a college out of the colleges that are available or you will be randomly allocated a college. And the college essentially is your home. That’s where your lodging is, that’s where you live. You will also have tutors and fellows there. So it’s a very academic environment, and you will be attending seminars and some graduate colleges in Oxford. I was at Nuffield myself and we had about three, four seminars every week. One on politics, sociology, media, economics.
So the environment is very academic, but your main academic learning, like your lectures, that happens in the department. So that’s where you would be going for your lectures and your classes, but you’d be living in the college. But both are trained to develop you and to benefit you academically. So it’s a dual system in Oxford. So I think that’s probably what US students would have to, would find new when applying to Oxford or Cambridge. But with other universities, I think it is a very academic environment, and we can talk a bit more about that.
If I get it correctly, the colleges have a social/communal aspect to them in addition to perhaps a certain academic focus, whereas the departments are strictly, like you say, your classes, your lectures, etc. [5:34]Yes, exactly. But it also means it’s perhaps a little bit more expensive if you’re applying to Oxford or Cambridge because you have a college fee and you also have a department fee. So this is another sort of a surprise when you apply to Oxford or Cambridge, “Oh, there’s more money involved.” But you may be eligible for scholarships or bursaries. So it’s understanding, because some students ask what’s the purpose of having two, but actually the system works really well. You get a lot out of your college and the interaction that you have, for example, when you’re having lunch or dinner or going to high table, you’re meeting fellows, you’re meeting alumni, you’re meeting, and then they have, you can go to different colleges for dinner. So there’s a lot of learning that happens quite informally over the table when you’re discussing research papers and ideas. So I think that’s, and I found that very fruitful when I was doing my research there.
Conversely, if you’re applying to US graduate programs from the UK specifically, is there something that internationals need to have explained to them? What would be different? [6:44]So let’s look at it culturally first. I think overall what I found when looking at different universities in the UK and the US, I think the UK overall has quite, like I was saying earlier, an academic approach, quite a formal approach. And there’s more emphasis, for example, if you are applying for a graduate program or a PhD, the modules that you studied, what were your marks in those? So it’s more academic, the requirements, but when you’re applying to the US, and I explained this to my UK students, there’s also the extracurricular activities, the work experience, which is also quite important for US colleges. Whereas I think in the UK that’s not in the same way. But I think if you’re applying to the top US universities, you would be required to prove some work experience also. So I think as well as your statement of purpose, your work experience matters a lot.
But also then the standardized testing, so the GRE, the GMAT, that’s something for UK students that takes them some time to understand. So, where do they stand? If they have a 2:1, what does that translate into a GPA, is that 3.5 or 3.7, et cetera? So getting used to the idea of a GPA and how they stand in that. So measuring themselves in those metrics, but also accumulating that work experience. And then of course, the other things are quite similar, the recommendations, that both countries require good recommendations and transcripts, etc. But it’s the difference between there’s more work experience which the US universities look for in their applications.
In the academic arena, like for example sociology, political science, or masters of public policy, are internships adequate? Or is full-time work experience important? [9:12]I think internships are adequate. It is just demonstrating on your CV, on your resume why you want to apply for that graduate program. What’s the motivation, what is your incentive? And I think that helps your application. So it’s not a requirement, but I think it’s just the culture of US universities, that they do like to see more than just your academic marks. So the internships, have you done something relevant in two or three years while you were doing your undergraduate? Have you perhaps worked with a professor at your university while you were doing your undergrad? Have you co-authored a paper or thought about the process of research?
So demonstrating some extra, more than just your marks that you’ve received. So internships, yes, absolutely, it is just proving what your motivation is. When you’re applying for a graduate program, you have to prove why you want to take that one step further into higher education. It shouldn’t be just that, “I don’t know what else to do”, or “I don’t want to work in the real world yet.” And a lot of students say this, they say that, “I just don’t want to go into the real world yet. It’s too scary, or three years just ended before I knew it, and I just want to keep on studying more.”
What universities want to see, and that’s the UK, US, Europe, everywhere, what they want to see is why that extra year or two years now? So you do have to show that motivation, and that should come across. And the more practical experience you have to prove that the better.
It’s pretty hard to write a statement of purpose if you don’t have a purpose. That’s just kind of the bottom line. Now, let’s say you have that purpose, you have a good reason for wanting to pursue graduate study. Let’s assume it’s an academic master’s or a PhD. How do you recommend that applicants decide where to apply? [11:03]I find that a lot of the applicants who I’ve worked with actually already have a good idea of the four or five schools that they have in mind. And they’ve already thought about it, but sometimes it’s the subject. So they’re very sure that this is the subject I want to do, for example, I want to do anthropology, or I want to do sociology, or I want to do economics. And I always tell them to start thinking about it quite in advance. Think first of all of the schools. If you’re not sure about your subject, let’s research and let’s have a look at four or five universities and their ranking. What is their research culture like? Speak to current students in that university. So as much research you can do beforehand. So investigative research to make your decision firm. And because that will then come across in your statement of purpose or your personal statement.
So I always say, think about the subject and think about your four or five universities that you have, and I can work with them on that usually. But I think these days, the students are very digitally capable and I think students do that research and the more, it is a full-time job applying for a master’s or a PhD, and a PhD becomes even more specialized. So you really have to think about your research question and spend some time developing your research proposal.
I remember when I was applying for my PhD, I spent about a week. I took a book out from a library on research methods, and I sat down and thought about, “What are the four or five interesting topics that I would like to research on for four or five years?” And it is not an easy thing, because it has to be a topic that you’re very passionate about. And then I looked at research methods and I studied that and I wrote a research proposal, a draft one, and then I emailed it to a few academics in different universities. And then I got a response from a couple of them, and I went to meet them. So I did all of that.
I think a PhD is even more specialized and that requires you to really think hard. But yeah, I know we’ll talk about that a bit more. So I think that’s my approach when thinking where to apply.
Being competitive is part of that process, isn’t it? I assume if you’re applying in a different country, it’s a little bit harder. If you’re in the United States, you can assess if your stats are competitive, based on published data. But what if it’s not published for your department or your area of study? Do you have any recommendations in that case in terms of assessing competitiveness? [13:44]Yeah, there are many different ways that you can look at the competitiveness of that university. You can look at their research ranking, their research culture, and how many, you can also email them and you can ask them. I don’t think we should go into this blindly. So if you look at the admissions requirements, if you don’t find what you’re looking for, you could email them and get the answers to that. I think just finding out beforehand when the deadlines are, when should you be thinking about writing your SOP or your personal statement? Planning ahead. Who will you ask for recommendations?
And if you don’t, perhaps students don’t meet the requirements, they don’t have the GPA or the required, but they really want to go to that university and do that course. And then we also think through quite creatively, could we actually make it happen somehow? Were there extenuating circumstances that maybe didn’t lead the student to achieve the result that they wanted to? It’s not that black and white in my experience, I think. Especially in US universities, perhaps there is a little bit more that could be said about the informal relationships you do have amongst your networks and how that plays a role as well.
I don’t have a PhD, but when I’ve talked to people who do have PhDs, including guests on the show, they’ve all emphasized the importance of the relationship with your advisor. You have a wealth of experience in admissions at Oxford. What do you think is critical for graduate applicants applying to the PPE program that you were a part of or applying to master’s degrees or PhD degrees in the social sciences? [15:39]So particularly for Oxford, PPE is an undergraduate program. There’s an interview required for that. But for the graduate programs, usually there isn’t an interview required. Oxford follows minimum requirements so you need to have at least a 2:1, which would be equal to about a 3.5 GPA in an undergraduate. You’re also expected to receive a fairly good mark, if you’re applying for a PhD, for example, a good mark in your master’s thesis. And then three recommendations are required. That’s quite different to other universities. Most universities I know require two, but Oxford requires three and they should be from your professors. That would be ideal that, for example, if you’re applying for a PhD, so then in your master’s, who was the three most academics that you worked with? That would be mostly your research supervisor, and perhaps two other people that you worked with in that duration of your master’s.
So I think it’s the recommendations play a really big part because they will show how much research, how capable or how savvy you are with research, with research methods. And those recommendations play quite a critical role, but also in your academic statement of purpose, here again, so then this for a PhD, you really need to show that you have thought through your research proposal. What methods you’re going to use. So for example, it wouldn’t be enough to say, “I just want to study anthropology”, but what is it particularly in anthropology? What are there particular elements that spark your curiosity? So for example, what is it about different religions and beliefs that interests you? What causes ethnic conflict in the world? So being very specific about that.
So in sociology, I had to write out four or five different research questions and then why do they interest me? What does the current literature say? What are the methods that I’d be following? And then I went to discuss it with potential supervisors. So Oxford, I would say is quite robust in its methods, and they want to see that you’ve thought through the research methods, you have an understanding of research methods, if you’re applying for a master’s or a PhD. So it helps undergraduate students to be thinking like that, if they’re thinking of further study in their final year, in their senior year.
I read a book a few years ago written by Bernard Lewis, a Middle Eastern historian. He talks at one point in the book about interviewing a certain student. He never said which disputed land was involved, but this student wanted to research why this piece of disputed land belonged to country X, not country Y. And Lewis asked him, “What if it turns out your research shows that it belongs to country Y, not Country X?” And he said, “Well, it won’t show that.” He says, “Well, how do you know?” He said, “Because everybody knows it belongs to country X.” Lewis did not take him into his PhD program. He was not interested in somebody who was not willing to follow the research. [16:25]Yes, this example proves that you should be open to finding an answer that you are not actually expecting, is challenging your own thoughts and being really open-minded about yes, just the answer. With a PhD the way to summarize it in my understanding is you’re creating something original, and that’s the whole process. But it’s a great exercise. If you can create that, then it helps you a lot in professional life later. The kind of steps involved in creating that original piece of knowledge. That’s a great example you’ve given.
How do you advise applicants to approach their application and the statement of purpose in particular? [20:25]When I get asked this question the way I think there’s one way to think about it, which is to imagine that a professor is reading 500 applications, is locked in a room reading 500 applications, 500 personal statements. What will make him or her want to read your personal statement or your statement of purpose? More than just the first paragraph. A very typical introduction to personal statements is, “I would like to study this course, I’m applying for this, and this will enhance my skills and develop me professionally.” That’s something very obvious. That’s something actually, and it’s taking up a lot of the word count that you have. In three or four lines you could be, I always say to my students, “Look for, really question yourself first of all. Why do you want to apply for that course? And write that.” Write something that captures the curiosity of the professor reading it. And then he thinks, “Oh, I really, yes, I do want to carry on reading.” There has to be a hook. What’s that hook?
And you really have to dig for that hook sometimes, you have to dig through your own mind to find your hook, for your personal statement, that will keep the attention of that professor reading your personal statement. So really think hard and write something captivating. That should be, but having said that, the UK and the US, there’s a difference as well. In the UK they don’t want you to write something too dramatic. So I find that there’s also a cultural difference, but it has to be something different and something original that starts your personal statement and then it shouldn’t be too long. I find that this is a common mistake that applicants make. They write two pages or sometimes longer, it should really be even less than the full page. It should be very concise and very focused and not generic. But if for applying for a graduate program, you have to show some advanced thinking.
And again, when students are applying for undergraduate, they have a lot of help. They have a lot of support from their counselors, from their teachers. But when you’re applying for graduate study, you are almost on your own, and you have some of your close professors that, or your lecturers that you have a good relationship with that may help you. But start thinking through that. What is your truth? What is that hook for your personal statement? Write your truth. And I would say make it personal. And it doesn’t have to be so academic. What are the personal reasons for why you want to apply for a master’s? What is it that? What is your profound reason? And write a draft and get someone to proofread it. Get some comments, get some feedback. Use your network. It could be family or friends. Get someone to read it, get some feedback, because it is good to get that criticism beforehand rather than not getting accepted, not getting offers later. So I think revise that draft and really make it your own. Make it your truth and start early with the personal statement, the statement of purpose.
I also like to say the statement of purpose or the MBA goals essay should show how that graduate program is going to be the bridge between where you are today and where you want to go. [23:59]Yes.
Many applications, certainly US applications, ask for either a resume and or a job history. What’s your recommendations for that? [24:38]Again, your resume for graduate study, it’s almost like your resume, it’s for a job, but it’s in that you would be putting your work experience and showing your skills, your work experience. Your resume really has to be geared towards the program that you’re applying for. So tailoring that to each application, and again, not making it generic. So your education, educational qualifications and your work experience, the skills that you’ve developed, any publications you may have. So it’s almost like, yes, it’s like a professional resume or a CV, but it comes to graduate applications. So I think, again, the US schools I find prefer a shorter resume, maybe one page or maximum two, whereas the UK sometimes yes, a CV can be two or three pages, but I would certainly recommend it should be short and concise, maximum two pages. I wouldn’t recommend going more than that.
But for the US one page would be concise and crisp, and very focused on your work experience if you have any. If you’ve taken a few years after your undergraduate and accumulated work experience, if you haven’t, then any internships you’ve done, any activities, extracurriculars that demonstrate, yeah, that demonstrate. And it should, again, the work experience that you list in that CV or resume, think about the bullet points, think about what each experience is, how is that demonstrating that this is relevant to the program that you’re applying for? So it would mean changing and tailoring perhaps each CV for each university application because the programs may vary. So in the social sciences, you might be applying for different strands of the social sciences and different universities. Thinking about the varied detail in each experience as well, and the more you can demonstrate how you are a better fit for that program would help.
How should applicants choose recommenders/ Should they prep them at all? [26:56]Again, start to think early, like who they have a good professional relationship with also, but I think again, two or three recommenders are the requirement. So if you have a recommender who’s related to the subject you’re applying for, that’s absolutely perfect. Even if it’s not somebody who knows your work, who knows your academic work and can give you a reference about that at all. If you’ve done internships, that could also be a reference. But I would say, if it’s two references and two recommenders, keep them academic from your undergraduate lecturers and your academics who’ve been teaching you, who you have a good relationship with. And I don’t think there’s much we can do in terms of prepping them, but yes, giving them as much information as possible about the course you’re applying for, giving them time. Not just expecting them to write your reference within a week, but letting them know.
And that again, I think links back to your own planning and your own timeline. So if you start thinking about it a year ahead, I would say, it is applying for a job. And then thinking about identifying the recommenders, letting them know well in advance, a few months or a couple of months at least. Or giving them enough time about the course you’re applying for, your motivations for applying and how that would lead to your future career. Do you want to do a PhD afterwards, or do you want to go and start working in an investment bank, etc.
You’ve been doing this for a long time and have many years of experience. What are the more common mistakes that you’ve seen applicants make? [28:38]I think a common mistake in a personal statement or statement of purpose is spelling mistakes or grammatical errors, which shows that they haven’t proofread it. And they’ve spent so much time preparing that application, but haven’t done those very basic things. And it could be linked to other mistakes, which is that maybe they’re applying on the day itself. So I would say don’t apply on the day of the deadline, apply a day or a couple of days, because often what happens is then they miss some key requirements. They may not be able to fulfill the recommenders, for example. Or again, that doesn’t give a good impression if you have spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.
Another common mistake is that personal statements are very generic. So they’re not geared or tailored towards the school that they’ve applied for. And as someone who’s reading your application, we would like to know why that university? What is it about that university? Have you looked at who are the academics? Who are the people in that department that you’re applying to? What is their research? What is it about that department? Is it the research methods? Because some departments have a very quantitative approach, some have a very qualitative approach in terms of their research methods. So have you thought about that? So showing as much as you can in that personal statement that shows that you’ve actually done your research. I think generic personal statements are another common mistake. These are probably the most common mistakes.
You’ve worked as an advisor in the UK, in Pakistan, and now you’re doing it in the United States. What do you like about advising applicants, specifically to graduate programs? [30:33]I really enjoy the process of just working with students. I mean, going through my own journey of education, I went straight from a bachelor’s to a master’s to a PhD. I didn’t have a break. But I learned it on my own, I learned it by myself. I didn’t have the advice when I was doing it, I didn’t have all of these resources I think. I had to learn the hard way, made my choices, and then learned. And I want to pass on my knowledge to students, and I want to advise them the best that I can so that they make informed choices, that they’re not making unnecessary mistakes or they’re not confused. I really enjoy that process of passing on the knowledge to students. Here in Pakistan, the US, the UK.
Yeah, there’s something quite meaningful about this work, which is more than just the commercial side of it. It’s more that you’re making an impact on someone’s life. You’re making, and I say this to my students, what you study today for your bachelor’s, your master’s, or it doesn’t necessarily determine your future or your career. It’s quite dynamic. It can change, and that’s okay. And I did economics and econometrics, then I did IR, and then I did sociology. So all three different subjects, all social sciences.
I find this very rewarding, and I just enjoy interacting with applicants. It’s a two-way process. I’m learning from them also. The world is changing and people and what they want to study and how they, and now with this, and we spoke about this, about Chat GPT and how people are using that. And how do you keep yourself original in a world of artificial intelligence? And how do you keep your mind active and thinking in its own way? It’s a very rewarding field and I love working with students.
The one-on-one is delightful. And of course when you get to the point when somebody calls you up or emails you and says, “I’m in! I got into my top choice!” It’s wonderfully rewarding. [32:44]Yes, yes.
What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [32:58]You’ve asked me wonderful and very important questions. We’ve covered most of the important aspects. I think perhaps what can be challenges or struggles for women or at least in my culture. I come from Pakistani culture. The challenges I faced could be unique just to my culture, but it was, “Why do you want to do a PhD?”
Was your family supportive? [33:35]I think they were supportive up to a point. And then when I wanted to do my PhD, it was very challenging because I was, yes, my family did not support me when I wanted to do my PhD because they thought I should get married, and there was lots of pressure on me to not to do it. But I got accepted into Oxford and that was my dream. And it’s a story that I often share with my students. I applied to Oxford three times, and I got accepted the third time. I applied for the PPE first, I didn’t get accepted. Then I applied for a master’s, I didn’t get accepted. Then I applied for the PhD, and I did.
So for me, it was a huge achievement that I’ve finally now going to Oxford, my dream. But there was also that conflict of get married, and I had to do it on my own. I had to face a lot of obstacles. I went to Oxford alone on the day, on the very first day. So it was very difficult achieving my dream, but that’s what makes it worth it. Like they say, like the famous quote, “No one said it would be easy, but just that it would be worth it.” So some of the challenges we really have to be open about them. And for me and women in my culture, it’s not very common that they study so much. So I think-
How did you overcome the challenge, were you just very determined? Did you have some friends that you turned to, or were you just your own internal strength? [35:01]I think mostly it was my own internal strength because Oxford was too important for me to give up. So I went there, and I went to Oxford without funding. That’s another challenge, because I had a fully funded PhD offer from Bristol, another university in the UK. But I gave that up because I wanted to go to Oxford. So I had to be quite creative, and every year I had to think, “Where will I get funding from?” I would be applying to my college for a bursary or my department for a scholarship, I applied for a few bank loans. I did a lot of jobs alongside.
I did teaching, which worked out really well because then after my PhD, I got electorship in that same year because of the teaching I had done. But I had done that for financial reasons. So it was a very difficult time, but also I think because I was so passionate about it, it was the internal strength which just made me, and eventually, I think your family does come around to it. But I think yes, I made very good friends and Oxford is just such a magical place. People have different challenges. A lot of my students who are applying have funding challenges, financial difficulty, various challenges. But being open about them and thinking through them and seeing how you’re going to, especially if you’re doing a PhD because it’s a long four or five years.
Relevant Links:
- Dr. Sundas Ali, bio and contact information
- Accepted’s Mapping Your MBA Application Quiz
- MBA Application Rejection Review and Strategy
Relevant shows:
- How to Get Into HEC Paris, podcast Episode 565
- NYU Abu Dhabi: Top Ranked MBA Program in the Middle East, podcast Episode 549
- How to Get an MBA at Columbia Business School, podcast Episode 528
- Get Into INSEAD, the Business School for the World, podcast Episode 520
- Applying to Wharton Lauder? Do Your Research!, podcast Episode 465
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Show SummaryIn this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Linda Abraham interviews David Kirschner, the Associate Dean of Admissions, Financial Aid, and Innovation at USC Gould School of Law. They discuss the distinctive elements of USC Gould’s JD program, including its small class size and student-centered approach. Dean Kirschner also highlights the flexibility and experiential learning opportunities available to students. They discuss the admissions process, including the acceptance of both the LSAT and GRE, the importance of engagement in an applicant’s background, and the components of a strong personal statement. Dean Kirschner shares his advice for wait-listed applicants, transfer applicants, and re-applicants.
Show NotesThanks for joining me for the 573rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk.
Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how you can improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
I’m delighted to have back on Admissions Straight Talk, David Kirschner, Associate Dean of Admissions, Financial Aid, and Innovation at USC Gould School of Law. Dean Kirschner earned his undergrad degree at USC, in Political Science and Film-Production. He then earned his JD at California Western School of Law. He has been in law school admissions since 2006, when he joined Loyola Law as an Associate Director of Admissions. In 2011, he became Director of Admissions at USC Gould, and in 2016 he became USC Gould’s Associate Dean and Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid
Dean Kirschner, thanks for joining me again on Admissions Straight Talk. [1:59]Thank you. I’m happy to be here, Linda.
I always like to start with this question in case some people may not have listened to the previous episode. Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of USC Gould’s JD program? [2:03]Certainly. I think one of the things that really sets our JD program apart, is the fact that it’s relatively small in class size, and that allows us to offer a very student-centered approach to the program. I like to tell prospective students, admitted students and enrolled students, that they’re not merely passers by during their three years in the JD program, but that they’re owners of their legal education. And our small size and our student-centered approach really do allow us to give students the opportunity to take ownership of their legal education.
How does that ownership manifest itself? Does it mean there’s more flexibility in the program and students have more opportunity to shape the program that they engage in? [2:51]Absolutely. I think it’s both of those things. From a curricular standpoint, once a student gets beyond the first year required courses, in the second and third year, we have very few requirements, it’s a handful. There’s an upper division writing requirement, there is a required class on race, racism and the law, that’s a new addition since we last talked, and that’s something we’re very proud of, that’s now part of our curriculum, right. So there’s that upper division writing requirement, there’s the race, racism and the law course. And then there’s an experiential learning requirement, so we want to ensure that our students have some kind of practical experience before they graduate. Beyond those three requirements, it’s really up to the student to shape those second and third years in a way that they believe will most benefit them.
The USC Gould website emphasizes the flexibility of the curriculum as well as the experiential learning opportunities. Can you touch on the experiential learning opportunities? I know they’re quite broad. [3:49]We look at experiential learning as a really broad umbrella. So there are clinical programs, which are certainly a major part of our experiential learning opportunity. So for listeners who may not know the difference between a clinical program and an externship, a clinical program is housed within the law school.It’s led by full-time clinical faculty at the Law School. Six of our seven clinics serve live clients, and we think it’s really important that students gain that experience, serving live clients via our clinical programs.
Then there’s the externship program, so that’s where we send students off-campus, to get experience in a wide variety of legal settings. Being in Los Angeles gives us so much opportunity to tap into a very diverse legal market, right? So whether it’s a traditional judicial externship, where a student may spend a semester, and most of ours are with Federal judges, in the Central District, they get incredible experience in a courtroom and in a judge’s chambers, or taking advantage of our location in the heart of the media entertainment capital, really, of the world – we have students working at movie studios, talent agencies, record labels and streamers – so tremendous opportunities for students to get that hands-on practical experience. So those are, probably, the two largest aspects of our experiential learning offerings, the clinical programs and the externship opportunities.
If somebody signs up for a clinic or an externship, is that a semester commitment? Is it a year-long commitment? Is it a two-year commitment? [5:33]Externships tend to be semester-long commitments.
Our clinical programs tend to be year-long, but, for example, the Mediation Clinic, if a student does that in their 2L year and really enjoys it, they can then come back in their 3L year and do what we call our advanced Mediation Clinic where the level of case that they’re able to oversee, in the LA Superior Court, so these mediation students are actually working in the Superior Court. It goes from small claims in the first year of the clinic to potentially, unlimited civil disputes, in the second year of the clinic.
You said that most of the clinics are live cases. What is the clinic that’s not a live case? [6:23]That’s a great question. So for us, the non-live client is our International Human Rights Clinic.
That clinic is focused on more policy-level issues, I mean, the reason that it’s not “live client.” I think is a wonderful reason, so students in the International Human Rights Clinic are working, most of the time, directly for judges on international tribunals or at The Hague. So those students get to spend time abroad, more often than not, and rather than serving an individual client, say with a landlord-tenant dispute, they’re working on prosecuting some of the worst war crimes offenders and other international and transnational issues that rise to the level of an international tribunal like The Hague.
Can you dive into the Intellectual Property and Technology Law Clinic and give us a little bit more information? [7:41]Yeah, absolutely. It’s one of our wonderful clinical opportunities and students in the, we call it our IP and Tech Clinic, they get to handle a variety of issues that are largely shaped by our location. That clinic in particular works very closely with the USC School of Cinematic Arts, and we are fortunate in that we’re a law school on the campus which has arguably the best film school in the world.
I may be a little biased considering my undergraduate major happens to be from there, but there certainly is truth to it. So our law students get to work with undergrad and/or graduate filmmakers on issues like fair use in documentary films, right, so, “Can this music clip be used for a certain amount of time in this project and does the distribution of the project have any impact on the outcome to that question?” So it’s questions like that, with very practical applications.
Within our School of Cinematic Arts, is also a video game, they have a very strong video game development program, and so our IP and Tech Clinic students also work extensively with those video game students on a lot of the same questions. “What content can fairly be used or adapted in a video game? Is it in the public domain? Is there a fair use doctrine that allows its usage?” So not only are they getting to work on substantive questions like this, but they’re also getting to interact with individuals who may be their future clients in practice. And I think that’s one of the benefits of being at a law school, and it’s not just at USC, but being at any law school that’s part of a larger university that has a great constellation of other graduate programs on campus.
The IP and Tech Clinic also, certainly, apart from the traditional media and entertainment to the extent that there are students with STEM and tech backgrounds in the clinic in any given year, they can also handle more technical cases. The head of our clinic, Professor Jeff Pearlman, has an outstanding background in tech, both on the academic side, as in the real world. So if we have students coming in with a tech background who maybe have already taken and passed the Patent Bar, the clinic can also handle some more technical kinds of cases, as part of their routine curriculum.
You’re also highlighting something else, and that is that the location of a law school is relevant to the choice. The resources the school has, both within the school and in a larger university, matter. If you do an externship, you’re not just working with potential clients, you’re also working with potential employers. [10:08]I think that also relates back to that first question that you had asked me about anything in particular that does set Gould apart, and I think I had talked about small size, but the corollary to that is that we’re a small law school that sits in the heart of a major research university, a tier one research university, that sits in the heart of a major metropolis, with one of the largest legal markets in the world, and then that metropolis sits in the heart of the Pacific Rim. So I think of it as these concentric circles, with the law school being at the very center of these three concentric circles that offer so much opportunity.
USC Gould accepts both the LSAT and the GRE, do you have any preference, one over the other? Are you finding that both tools are equally predictive of future success in law school? [11:22]I would say, we certainly don’t have a strong preference for one over the other, because they have both satisfied the fairly rigorous statistical validity studies that go into student success. The reason we accept the GRE is, because we did an extensive study prior to beginning to accept it, to ensure that it had some validity for our students. Now, I still think, for most applicants, the LSAT is probably the preferred test, for a couple of reasons, if you want me to get into them, I briefly can.
Even though a lot of law schools take the GRE now, a lot don’t, so if you want to take one test that’s going to be most widely applicable, that’s going to be the LSAT. It’s still the gold standard test for law school admission purposes. The LSAT also doesn’t have math on it, so for people who are not mathematically inclined, it may be a better bet, because the GRE does have a section with some, at least for me, who was never a math person, I would certainly find challenging. And moving forward, and I’m sure you know this and may have broached it on prior podcasts, the LSAT is no longer going to include the analytical reasoning section, starting in August, and that would be the closest to math, although not really, that was ever on the LSAT.
But again, I mean, largely because the LSAT is still accepted by every law school, I do think, in a cost benefit analysis, applicants may be getting the best bang for their buck with the LSAT, but we certainly have no issues with the GRE for applicants who have taken that. I think the other thing, again, that leads kind of the LSAT to be the gold standard is, without getting too much into the weeds on this, when we report to our accreditors every year, the American Bar Association, their instructions are, “If someone’s taken both the LSAT and the GRE, you only report the LSAT score.” So for all intents and purposes, if someone’s taken both, they’re an LSAT-only taker, for the purposes of our accreditors.
How do you view multiple test scores? I don’t mean so much, the LSAT and the GRE, I mean multiple LSAT scores or multiple GRE scores. [13:46]It’s the norm now, seeing multiple scores is the norm. So I’ve been working in the business long enough to remember, again, when our accreditors, the ABA, would tell us, “Well, you have to report the average score,” right, “If you have a test taker who’s taken multiple tests, we want the average.” It’s been about a decade since they said, “Well, give us the high score.” That alone made taking the test multiple times, a much more palatable solution.
For an applicant, so my only caveat now is, if you take a test multiple times and you have a score differential that’s beyond the standard deviation, right, so a significant differential on the LSAT, that’s plus or minus three points, that you include a short addendum and kind of let us know what happened. And in that case, there’s really no harm to taking the test multiple times, but I would say, I strongly recommend not taking it cold, just to take it.
It’s time and money.You can take practice tests cold. Don’t take the real thing cold.
Have you given any thought to JD-Next? [15:17]We have certainly given thought to JD-Next, and I’m in favor of creative solutions, whatever they may be, to widen the top of the funnel, right, to get more and more people into the law school application pipeline. The ABA had some independent consultants look at JD-Next, and they issued a report that had some positive and some negative things to say about JD-Next, so my big concern is that any tool that’s to be used as part of our admission process has a strong set of predictive validity behind that. Right now, we’re convinced that the LSAT and GRE do; we’re not convinced about any other products on the market right now, but I know JD-Next is one that they’re continuing to work on, and I know LSAC has a platform called Law Ready that they’re working on. So as more new products hit the market, I only think that can be helpful.
I found the concept of JD-Next just really intriguing, in other words, the idea that they’re saying, “Well, let’s give people the skills that prepare them for law school, and if they pass the test showing that they have the skills, they’re ready.” That’s the concept behind it, as I understand it. And it sounded like it would open more doors. [16:21]Statistical validity is a tough hurdle to overcome, and I would presume and be certain that the folks over at JD-Next, after reading the independent consultants report, will be looking at some of what is said.
What kind of experience, either during college or full-time after college, is good preparation for USC Gould? [17:25]If I boil it down to one word, it would be, engagement. We’re looking for individuals who’ve been engaged in whatever communities they’ve been a part of. So it could be their college community, it could be volunteering in their home community or in their college community. It could be individuals who have worked to help support themselves through college. It could be their work community, for people with gap years, it is their employment community. For us, engagement is so important, again, because we’re small. And with a first year class of fewer than 200 people, I want to make sure that everyone in the first year class is prepared to make an impact on our law school community. Engagement is crucial to making someone a well-rounded applicant, seeing that there are really more than a collection of great grades and test scores and engagement goes to that.
Way back in 1996, I attended a local conference of pre-law advisors. At the first session I attended, a dean of a local law school argued, very forcefully, that all those people who only look at the GPA and LSAT are wrong, that in admissions, they really look at application much more broadly. He received an enthusiastic round of applause to his comments from the advisors there. The next session was pre-law advisors only, and all they talked about was the LSAT and the GPA. So I was sitting there listening, and I was thinking, there’s a disconnect here. Now, today there’s obviously the GRE, and I do believe that over the last almost 30 years, admissions have become more holistic, but what factors, in addition to engagement, that you just mentioned, if any, do you weigh in addition to the test score and GPA? [18:37]Even to test score and GPA, there’s context to it, so the contextual factors are really important, especially with GPA, and I tend to think of it more as an academic record, right. I look at the full picture of someone’s academic record, was there an upward trend or a downward trend? Was there a change of majors? Did someone start at community college and transfer to a four-year to receive their degree? And how was that transition from community college to the four-year? Was the applicant working while in school and how many hours a week were they working? Were there family obligations? Right, so number one, it’s about digging deeper than just the number itself, especially on the Grade Point Average.
But beyond the numeric factors, it really is a holistic process, I mean, I tell prospective students all the time, “Do the numbers matter? Yes, the numbers matter.” I would not be truthful if I had said the numbers don’t matter, but going back to my film background, I think of, the numbers frame how the rest of the application is viewed, right. It tells me what I need to be focusing on as I’m looking through that lens and reviewing the application. So there are the numeric factors, there’s the context behind the numeric factors, and then there are all of the intangible qualities that make a strong applicant.
For me, the personal statement, is a really crucial part of an application, not just to assess the substance of why someone wants to go to law school, but also the stylistic choices and ensuring that, grammatically, it’s a well-written, mistake-free, at the end of the day, it’s a writing sample. So I find the written pieces really important, the letters of recommendation are another important aspect, because with letters of rec, in particular, academic letters of rec, I’m not having to substitute my judgment, I’m getting to read what someone who has seen this person in a classroom has to say about them, right, whether it’s a professor or a teaching assistant, I’m getting to see, firsthand, the words from someone who’s observed this individual in an academic setting. All of those pieces are really important, but the numbers are the framing mechanism by which I assess the rest of the application.
I’m wondering, as I’m listening to you, is it the numbers that are the framing mechanism or is the context framing the numbers? [22:03]They do both. When I see the numbers, I get this series of questions in my head, right, like immediately when I see the numbers, I’m going to start asking myself some things, and if the application is well done, it’s going to answer those questions for me.
What are some of those questions? [22:33]I think we may have talked about this on the first podcast, but I think one of the most important things an applicant can do is be self-reflective going into the process, I think one thing law school do well is, we put a lot of information out there. We put a lot of really accurate information out there. “Here are our medians, here are our 25th percentiles, here are our 75th percentiles.” An applicant should know that, going into every school that they apply to, right, what the law school’s profile looks like and what their profile looks like.
And take what kind of the social media universe likes to call, splitters, someone who has a standardized test score that may be up here, right, and a grade point average that might be down here, or vice versa. Well, I’m going to be asking, what’s more predictive? Right, so if you are an applicant with a grade point average, that’s straight A’s and an LSAT score that may be below our median or below our 25th percentile, part of your job is to make the case and to make the convincing case that that grade point average is more indicative of the kind of law student you’re going to be. So that’s the type of question I’m going to be asking as I’m looking at an application.
You touched on the personal statement a minute ago and its importance. The Gould website asks for a two to three page personal statement, and the site says, “We are particularly interested in how your background, academic or otherwise, has led to your decision to study law. This is not the place to repeat items on your resume.” Obviously, don’t just repeat items on your resume, but what are the ingredients of a good response? What would you like to see in there? I am going to guess that self-reflection is going to play a role. [23:48]It absolutely does. We’re purposely very open-ended on it, because I think that’s the more difficult personal statement to write. At the end of the day, I think a really good personal statement, answers the, why question, right. Why Law School and why now? Law school is a significant investment in both time and money, so it’s a big investment in resources. And over the years, in particular, at Gould, I’ve seen very, very, very few students not succeed, and the common thread between the students who haven’t been successful, is they can’t answer the, why, question. So for me, it’s really important to have a strong sense of who you are and how who you are has influenced this desire to attend law school now.
A trap that people fall into, in personal statements, fairly often, is a lot of times, and I completely understand this, we have influences in our lives, be it siblings, close friends, family members, and that may be responsible for someone’s decision to go to law school, but at the end of the day, the personal statement needs to be about the applicant, not about their sibling, not about their parent. It’s certainly okay to talk about how someone may have influenced you, but I really need to know why you want to go to law school because I’m admitting you, at the end of the day, I’m admitting you, the applicant, not your parent or your sibling. And like you said, self-reflection is a huge part of that, but it’s an important part of a quality personal statement.
Every so often, I’ve read personal statements where the applicant talks, one-third or one-half the essay, about a particular influencer, whether it’s a parent or a grandparent. And it’s very nice, but that doesn’t tell you anything about them. [25:53]I think the “why” is so important. It’s a big reason, why we don’t allow AI to be used on any of the written materials in the application.
You’re actually really clear about it, on your website, that you do not want applicants to use ChatGPT or AI, in writing their essays. And you’re on a campus with an engineering school and all the tech that USC has, I’m convinced AI is going to become more pervasive, do you think your policy might change? [26:30]I think it would be foolish for me to say it’s never going to change because that’s ignoring the pace at which technology changes. I certainly think we’re open to seeing where things go, but for now, and I’ve certainly spent time in Chat Gpt and other AI tools, as well as talking to faculty members who are very knowledgeable about it, AI cannot write a personal statement with the level of depth that we want to see in an applicant’s personal statement.
That’s very clear. Let’s go back to the other writing samples or writing pieces on the application, specifically, the diversity of background essay and/or your experience statement. I’m guessing it should complement and not duplicate the personal statement, is that correct? [27:26]That’s exactly correct, yes.
How should applicants parse these two things out? [27:56]That’s a great question, and there’s a fine line between being complementary and repetitive. I think with the personal statement focused on the, why, I kind of view that kind of like as the intrinsic motivation that’s driving someone to law, whereas the statement of background and experience, and again, these are all guidelines and suggestions. There’s nothing saying this is the only way, but I think the statement of background and/or experience, by its nature is where an applicant can discuss some of the more external factors that make them different from the rest of the applicant pool. So I think, right, whereas the personal statement is intrinsic in looking inwards about personal motivation, the statement of background and/or experience is an applicant’s opportunity to talk about what makes them think they’re different from the rest of the applicant pool, or what unique experiences that they have gone through in their lives have them prepared for law school.
I’ve seen great background and experience statements about being a collegiate athlete and how that’s prepared someone, or growing up in a foreign country speaking a different language, how that has prepared someone. And so I think one of the things we’ve done, so we really overhauled this statement over the past cycle – certainly, the Supreme Court decision had a lot to do with us overhauling it – but I actually think I’ve seen much improved statements this year versus when we called it, a generic diversity statement. You probably see, we now have six different sub-prompts that someone can choose to write about, with the statement of background and experience. And I’ve seen much more well-written, highly-targeted statements of background and experience, this cycle.
I wonder if you’re also learning more about individuals, because they feel they can talk about being a collegiate athlete, maybe being a skier or being of a particular religion or whatever makes them them. It can be about diversity, in the more traditional senses of the word, but it can be something very different from that also. [29:52]Yeah, absolutely. I think this new prompt has helped us get at that a lot better.
Does Gould School of Law consider update letters from applicants who have something significant to tell you after they submit their applications and before hearing back from you? [30:25]We absolutely welcome updates. The tricky part is, what’s “significant.”? For us in particular, we get a lot of people asking if they can update their resume, certainly, if there’s a new job or many of our applicants are on the verge of graduating from college, if there’s a significant academic award leading into commencement, no, we welcome those updates, but they do have to be material for us to make them a formal part of the application.
All right. Do you have any plans to introduce, either, in-person interviews, Zoom interviews, physical interviews, or a video component to the application? [31:08]We don’t, and not in the immediate future. We previously had conducted video interviews, I think we were probably a little bit ahead of the curve in conducting waitlist video interviews, over 10 years ago. Well before COVID-19. And for a variety of reasons, we discontinued that, and moving forward, at least in the immediate future, I don’t see us going back to interviews.
All right. Do you have any advice for wait-listed applicants? I suspect at this time of year, we probably have a few of them hanging out. [31:50]I think the key for waitlisted applicants is patience. The longer a wait-listed applicant can be patient, I think, has a direct correlation to the probability of them hearing a positive outcome, right. Because the key to the waiting list is, what we do or don’t do is predicated on what people who have already been admitted do, and that changes throughout the summer. So it’s be patient, stay tuned to your inboxes and look for emails from us, Law schools often, before extending offers from a waiting list, we’ll put kind of what we call, feeler emails, out there. We’ll ask people if they remain interested and willing to commit, so if you get one of those, you want to respond quickly, but you also want to respond honestly.
I make it no secret, when I’m talking to waitlisted candidates, our goal is to extend as few offers as possible off the waiting list, if we need to extend any. And so that’s going to go to candidates who are genuine in saying, “Yes, I’m still interested and still willing and still able to attend.” So it’s, pay attention to your email, and certainly, periodic letters of continued interest are welcome from waitlisted candidates, because that’s another way, beyond when we reach out, that’s a way to proactively continue to let us know that you’re interested. And I certainly think, like at this point forward, there’s nothing wrong with once a month sending a letter of continued interest to us.
I assume that the letters of continuing interest could also update you as to, again, new honors, new jobs, new activities, new responsibilities, etc. [33:26]Yeah, absolutely.
Do you have any advice for transfer applicants to USC? [33:41]The transfer process in many ways is a more straightforward process than the first-year application process. For first-year applicants, we ask for all of this information, because we’re trying to make an educated guess as to first-year performance. I mean, that’s really what applications are doing, is applications are trying to assess how successful someone can be in the first year of law school, right, not if they’re going to pass the bar, not how good an attorney they’re making, really just that they can get through the first year. With transfer students, we have that information. We have the first-year transcript from a transfer student. So for a good portion of our transfer pool, we’ll have the full first-year grades. Even first semester grades, though, are helpful because we see how the student’s done, so my advice would be, do as well as you possibly can do in the first year of law school, there is no substitute for grades as a transfer student. And then the second piece is, be able to articulate a reason for why you want to transfer beyond just like the proverbial trading up, right. Because a transfer student who gets into Gould will have done very well in their first year, so they’ll be giving up some things, right, their law school may let them grade onto Law Review, they may have a seat on the Moot Court Honors Program already. So I also want to know, why a transfer student is willing to give up some of those things that come with doing so well in the first year.
How many transfer students does USC Gould accept? [35:28]We are normally looking to enroll anywhere between 10 to 15 transfer students. To get there, we’re accepting, certainly, marginally more than that, but the goal is about 10 to 15 transfer students.
I noticed that innovation was added to your title since we last spoke. What innovations do you have planned? [35:48]I’m working on a number of projects that are just trying to bring innovation to a wide variety of student facing technology at the law school in general. So beyond admissions, I think one of the reasons I’ve been tasked with doing this is, I’ve been successful in bringing about innovation on the admissions side of things. So one thing we’ve launched in the past six months that I’m really pleased with is, we were talking about AI a little earlier, we have an AI powered chatbot on our website. So you may have seen the little pop-up on our website. It’s done a few things for us. It has cut down on phone calls seeking very basic pieces of information. But from, kind of the tech side of things, and I think people are fully aware of this, anytime you interact with a website, it’s giving a company, whether it be a law school or the retail, whatever, we’re getting information on that person so that we can then offer a more highly tailored set of marketing materials. So we’ve really, at least on the admissions side, is develop some really sophisticated marketing campaigns that are tailored to individual interests. And the AI powered chatbot is one other way that we’ve been able to do that. But no, kind of more on the law school wide, it’s doing things to try and streamline the process from when a student first applies until they graduate, to put all of the resources in a single, easily accessible location, to just kind of make doing day-to-day things easier.
Do you have advice for re-applicants? [37:59]A re-applicant needs to be getting back to self-reflection. They need to assess to the best that they can, why the decision may not have gone their way and then address that in an application and show growth. I think one of the least effective things a re-applicant can do is submit a verbatim personal statement. To me, that shows a lack of effort, it shows a lack of sincerity, and certainly, I would think there’s something someone has done over the course of a year, and a personal statement should reflect that, and a resume should be updated. So it’s taking some effort to show growth from the prior year.
Sometimes I hear people say, “Oh, well, maybe the pool will be a little easier next year, so I can submit the same thing and have a different outcome.” My response to that is, right, why rely on external factors like the pool and not knowing what a pool is going to do, when with a little time and effort, you can take matters into your own hands and, right, improve your application, and the pool is going to be what the pool is going to be.
Gould’s priority deadline was February 1st this year, and its regular application deadline was April 1st. Are they staying the same next year? What advice do you have for those planning ahead? [40:02]Our deadlines will remain the same next year with a priority deadline of February 1st. Apply early, I mean, really apply early. I think most of your listeners probably have heard the term, rolling admission, and what that simply means is, we start making admission decisions as early November, December, of the year that the cycle opens and we continue until we hit our targets. And when we hit our targets, varies, but many years, it’s earlier rather than later, so the earlier you apply simply, kind of by the whole supply and demand principle, there are more seats earlier in the process, so we have more flexibility in extending offers early in the process. So certainly, an applicant wants to apply by our priority deadline, but in all honesty, if that application can be submitted before the new year, right before the clock ticks midnight on New Year’s Eve, even better.
What should an applicant be doing now? I think an applicant should be working out their timeline, right about now. So applications at many law schools, and we’re one of them, they open September 1st. So I think, right, like that goal should be to get the application in as early as possible. So that means studying for the LSAT right now, having registered or registering very soon for an LSAT administration, making sure you register for an LSAT, that if something goes wrong on test day, you have an opportunity to take another one and still get that application in a timely manner. It means starting to reach out to potential recommenders, so, right, you don’t want to go to a recommender, September 1st, and tell them, “Hey, I want to submit my application next week, give me a letter of recommendation.” Start talking to potential recommenders now, it’s time to start getting the ducks in a row so that when Fall rolls around, as an applicant, you’re well-positioned to submit early.
Great advice. You also don’t want to go to a recommender and find out they’re going on a month-long vacation. [42:23]There you go.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [42:35]I love getting asked, “What’s my favorite thing about working at Gould?”
USC is my alma mater, and not everyone has the opportunity to work at a place that has played such a significant role in their lives, and I’m grateful for that. But beyond that, it’s the community, USC and the aw school in particular, we call ourselves, the Trojan Family, and I know that can like maybe sound kind of hokey and, but it really is. It’s more than an alumni network, it’s a family. So we just had our big Admitted Students Day last Friday, and I put out this blanket invitation to alums, to current students, to faculty. And I don’t know why I’m amazed every year, because I should just come to expect it, but the response is just extraordinary, from managing partners at Am Law 100 firms, to close to a hundred current students, coming out, because they just want to share their experience and they want to be a part of helping to enroll the next generation of Gould alumni.
It’s working at a place where that’s the experience every day, people who truly want to be there and people who want to make sure that the generations who come after them are just as poised for success as they are or as they were.
Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your expertise. Where can listeners learn more about USC Gould School of Law? [44:09]A great resource is our website, which is gould.usc.edu, another great place, especially, to get a little bit more of a day in the life, we have our own Gould Admissions Instagram account. I strongly recommend your listeners to check out either of those venues to learn more.
Relevant Links:
- USC Gould School of Law
- USC Gould Instagram
- Are You Ready for Law School?, Accepted’s free quiz
Related Shows:
- How to Get into USC Gould School of Law, podcast Episode 456
- JD-Next: A Great Option for Law School Applicants, podcast Episode 562
- How to Get into the University of Chicago Law School, podcast Episode 559
- Navigating the Law School Admissions Process, podcast Episode 550
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Show SummaryIn this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Linda Abraham interviews admissions directors from MBA programs outside the United States to find out if there are any common threads among them. The guests on the show include representatives from Oxford Saïd Business School, INSEAD, NYU Abu Dhabi, and HEC Paris. The interviews cover various topics such as program overviews, admissions processes, and common applicant mistakes. The interviews also touch on language requirements, the role of the video interview in the evaluation process, and the importance of holistic review in admissions decisions. Overall, this interview provides valuable insights into the unique aspects of these MBA programs and shed light on the similarities and differences among them.
Show NotesWelcome to the 572nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Before I turn to today’s show, I have a question for you. Are you ready to apply to your Dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it’s all free. .
If you are a regular listener, you know that during most episodes of Admissions Straight Talk, I interview a guest, frequently, an admissions director or dean. Usually, our guests are leaders at a US graduate program. However, within the last couple of years, I have had the privilege of interviewing several deans or directors from programs outside the United States. Today we’re going to take specific excerpts from four of those episodes and let you determine if there are some common threads and of course, how they differ.
Today’s episode is a collection of their answers to admissions questions as well as insight into their programs. The guests on this program are:
- Hannah Griffiths, MBA Recruitment and Admissions Director at Oxford Saïd Business School
- Teresa Peiro, Associate Global Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at INSEAD
- Dr. Robert Salomon, Dean of Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi
- Sara Vanos, Executive Director of Marketing and Admissions at HEC Paris.
I’ve asked some questions of almost every admissions director I’ve spoken to, so the responses that you’re going to see, again, represent a sample. In any case. Let’s start with Hannah Griffith of Oxford Saïd Business School.
Oxford Saïd Business SchoolWhile Saïd is a fairly new and very innovative MBA program, Oxford is the oldest university in the English-speaking world, and Hannah provides the following: An overview of the Oxford Saïd MBA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements; insights into the program’s admissions process, and a review of common misconceptions about Oxford Saïd.Can you give us an overview of the Oxford Saïd MBA program for those listeners who aren’t that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:32][HG] Yes, absolutely. So the Saïd Business School is a business school that is embedded within Oxford University. Our MBA program is a one-year MBA program, and given that the business school is embedded within a world-class university, that does impact the MBA experience in a number of different ways. One of those ways being that the students can expect, in the one-year program, a lot of academic rigor. Our program is an intensive one-year MBA, it aims to include everything that a candidate would maybe anticipate finding on a two-year program, but packed into a 12-month period.
The main aim of the business school and of the MBA program is to prepare our students to be responsible business leaders and individuals who, as they move through their career in the future, are prepared to tackle world scale problems, challenges, and to really see business as a vehicle to drive change. And be that within the organizations that they work in, the sectors that they choose to work in, in their communities, and sometimes on a larger scale in the countries that they choose to be based in.
In addition to academic rigor, there are some other things to highlight that students could anticipate finding on the Oxford MBA, an incredibly diverse cohort. So our student body is largely international, our current class is 94% international, with 71 different nationalities represented across the class. And diversity of thought is something that’s very important to us on the Oxford MBA, as well. So we have a very broad range of different sector backgrounds represented in our cohort, that also means that students can expect a diverse range of career outcomes, and also a global alumni network that will be very far-reaching in terms of its depth and breadth, as well.
And obviously access to the greater Oxford community network, correct? [4:58][HG] Yes, absolutely. Which largely comes via their college membership while they’re with us in Oxford, but in terms of that alumni network, absolutely. They gain the benefit of having a network that they will have via the business school, and then obviously, another network that comes via the university as well.
What don’t people know about Oxford Saïd that you would like them to know, or what’s a common misconception about Oxford Saïd that you’d like to correct? [5:19][HG] That’s a really great question. So I would say that the school is probably best known for its focus on social impact, and its focus on entrepreneurship. So students who research the business school, and research the MBA, those are the two main areas that will stand out to them, in terms of what the school focuses on. So I would say probably a misconception, as a result of that, is that the MBA at Oxford isn’t for you if you are a finance professional, or a consulting professional, or somebody who’s maybe looking to move into one of those two sectors after the program. And actually, the reality in terms of the makeup of our cohort and in terms of the sectors that our students go on to work in after the MBA, those two sectors are actually quite well represented. So about 45% of our class will come from those sectors, in advance of doing the MBA, and about 50% of our class will go on to work in those spaces after the program.
There is large numbers of, or large aspects of the program, in terms of the curriculum itself, but also in terms of the co-curriculars that are designed to support students who are looking to move into those spaces. So obviously, in terms of the core courses themselves, there’s a large number of those that are finance-focused. So for students who are maybe looking to pivot into that space, there is the opportunity to really study those subjects in depth on the MBA. One of our most popular co-curriculars on the Oxford MBA is our Finance Lab, which students, again who are interested in either accelerating their career in finance, or moving into the space, really, really benefit from. Similarly, with students who are looking to maybe pivot into consulting, I mentioned the strategic consulting project already that they can do in the summer semester. Our career development center also run a consulting development program throughout the academic year, to support students who are looking to move into that space.
And certainly, in terms again of the finance focus, we have some world renowned finance faculty at the business school as well. So I would say that’s probably the more common misconception, is that maybe if you are somebody who isn’t interested or doesn’t have experience of social impact or entrepreneurship, that maybe Saïd is not for you, and the case is actually quite the opposite. We do have a focus on both of those areas, but we equally have a focus on finance consulting, and a number of other industries as well.
Let’s move to admissions. Saïd asks for a transcript, test score, a one-page resume, two references, a supporting statement, and then an online assessment before it starts evaluating the application, and deciding whom to interview. What happens after the applicant hits submit, and takes the online assessment? [7:58][HG] I’m sure there are lots of people who actually wonder this. It’s a really good question. So once the applications come through to us, they are processed by members of our team, that usually can take kind of the two to three week period, depending on what stage of the application process we are at. And once they have been processed, their application will then be reviewed by the admissions committee. It will be reviewed twice, by two individual members of that committee, and it will then be reviewed a final time by the more senior members of that admissions committee, before a decision is made on whether or not that candidate will move through to interview.
The applications at Oxford are really, really viewed holistically, so there’s not a particular component of the application that holds more weight than others when we are reviewing the applications. But all of the different components are taken into account, and we’re really trying to get a sense from someone’s application of who they are as an individual, and what they could add to the cohort if they were to be admitted. So yeah, essentially that’s it. That process, in terms of review, usually again takes between two to four weeks, depending on the stage deadline that we are at. Students will then be informed if they have been selected to move through to interview and then that process will run usually, again, for about three to four weeks before students will learn if they have been successful, and have been admitted to the program.
What else are you looking for? [9:53][HG] Yeah, really good question, and definitely I would say to anybody who has that concern, particularly in relation to GPA, which people will reference often. Do not let that be a barrier to applying for an MBA, and also try not to spend too much energy worrying about it, because the GPA is the one component of the application that candidates can’t influence. It’s the score that they have. They’ve completed their degree, and so essentially, if they have a concern around that area, I would say the best mindset to have is, how you can focus on the other components that you can still control, and make sure that they’re really strong so that they essentially outweigh any concerns that you might have about your GPA.
I would take a similar approach with the GMAT, to be honest. So, it is an important aspect of the application, but essentially what we’re looking to see via your GMAT score, is that you are somebody that would be able to cope with the academic rigor of the program, particularly with the quantitative element of the program. But there is a broader range of scores represented across our class than candidates would often anticipate, and students who come through with a lower GMAT score are people who demonstrate strength in other areas of the application. So that’s sometimes via the work experience that they’ve had across their career to date, they’re individuals who are able to show us that they’ve enjoyed good career progression, and that they’ve maybe had good international exposure across their career to date, that they’ve had leadership opportunities that they’ve been able to embrace. The personal statement that they can write really allows them to give us a sense of their individual story. So again, we’re really looking for authenticity, to try to get a sense of who somebody is via the application.
And then similarly, through the online assessment, which I think is a really key component of the application in terms of showing the committee a little bit more of your personality. It gives us a sense of your communication style, of the experience you have that you might be able to draw on, and share with your classmates if you were part of the program. And all of those things are of equal importance to us when we are deciding whether or not it’s somebody who we would want to put through to interview, and ultimately admit to the class.
Why do you need both the online assessment and the interview? [12:05][HG] Yeah, really good question. And sometimes candidates do assume, I think because we have the online assessment, that it has replaced the interview, so it’s good to clarify that it definitely hasn’t. The online assessment is brief, in terms of the amount of information students can provide. So it involves them video recording answers to three questions, but those answers are 90 seconds or 60 seconds in length. So it gives us a taste, maybe, of what that individual might be like, but probably doesn’t give us enough of a sense of their personality, and how they might be within the cohort.
The interview also allows us the opportunity to just explore some of the other components of the application in a little bit more detail, so particularly, the career plan is something that we will talk to candidates a lot about at the interview. And also, as I said, really just trying to get a sense of who they are and of what they might add to the cohort.
And similarly for candidates, I think the interview is a really important part of the process, because it’s their opportunity to maybe learn a little bit more about whether they think the business school is the right place for them. We’re very aware that a lot of candidates who apply to the Oxford MBA are applying to a number of other business schools as well, and so the interview processes and opportunity for them to try to get a sense of, “Okay, is this a business school where I would fit? Is this a program where I can really benefit, in terms of my future aims, and the career outcomes that I’m looking to achieve?” And so the interview, I would say, is maybe more conversational sometimes than candidates would expect, and it does really give them that opportunity to make sure that the business school might be the right place for them, as well.
INSEAD MBA ProgramFor a different perspective. Let’s hear from INSEAD’s Teresa Peiro. Here are the topics she addresses: an overview of INSEAD’s MBA program, INSEAD’s language requirements, and what INSEAD is looking for in MBA applicants.To start, can you give us an overview of INSEAD’s MBA program for those listeners who aren’t that familiar with it? [14:03][TP] Yes, of course. Our MBA program is a 10-month program that brings together around a hundred nationalities per cohort. You can either start in January, or in the August intake. It’s a very intense program. It’s shorter, but our participants make the most out of it, and we commonly hear all of our alumni saying that it was the best years of their lives.
INSEAD has three full campuses, and several partnerships with both US programs, in CEIBS, in China. How do most students take advantage of that geographic diversity? I mean, it’s already intense, right? If it was 10 months in Fontainebleau the whole time, that would already be intense. But if you have all this, other options, how do they do it? [14:37][TP] Indeed. So our applicants have to make a decision of which will be their home campus. So what is their core courses, they will have to stay in their home campus. After that, when the electives start, they can either change campuses, so if someone starts in Singapore, they can go to Fontainebleau, and vice versa. And then we offer different partnerships, as you mentioned, with different schools in the US and China. So what happens is that they can go to that school, while they’re in that school, they’re like full students from the welcoming school, and they spend their period there, and then they come back to INSEAD.
Where are the three campuses, again? [15:36][TP] So we have three campuses: Fontainebleau, Singapore, and Abu Dhabi. And we opened, pre-COVID, a San Francisco hub.
Where are the partnerships? [15:54][TP] The partnerships are with Kellogg and Wharton, in the US, and with CEIBS in China.
When you talk about your home campus, how much time are you required to spend there? What do most students do? [16:02][TP] It depends more, per class, so there’s not statistically, something consistent. They have to stay for the core courses for the first period, they have to stay where they decided to apply to. Because we consider that that part is the most intense of the program, because they have all of these classes and all the exams, and it’s like the core, and they have to stay focused where they are. And then, switch campuses.
So it’s super interesting because now for example, for instance, we welcomed those who started in Singapore, and they arrived to Fontainebleau, and it’s like they discover a new school, it’s like a new campus. And they get to see other participants that started here in the program, and they have moved, or those who came with them. So I find it very vibrant, the campus exchange moment, because the campus is full of suitcases, and they’re coming in and out. And they see new faces, and you see how, “Oh, I connected with you when we were applicants, and now I see you here.” It’s a good sense of community.
In terms of the partnership schools, is the 10 months divided into semesters? Or, you mentioned periods, how does that work? [17:10][TP] There are periods of two months. Five plus P0. P0 starts before they arrive to campus. So we’ve got P0, and five periods.
Could you review the language requirements, both at entry and graduation, for INSEAD participants? That’s a very distinctive aspect of the program. [17:35][TP] Yes. And you know what? It’s one very near to my heart. So as you know, or maybe you don’t. INSEAD was founded by Georges Doriot, who was a French Harvard professor. At the beginning, all courses were taught in those three languages. So German, English and French, which were the languages in Europe. We’ve been adapting to the different times. English has to be validated, either by your native language, or by other means of assessment. We need to ensure that every MBA or every student in is going to be able to follow the class, and make the most out of the program. So English has to be validated. If it’s your native language, we will not question it, but then you will have to validate the second language for INSEAD reasons.
How do you validate? [18:38][TP] So if English is not your native language, you have to validate it. So there are different criteria. Most common are, you need to have, your whole degree has to be taught in English, and it has to be specified in your transcripts. Or, through TOEFL, PTE, or IELTS.
And if English is your native language, and your second language is French, for example, or Spanish. [18:58][TP] There are other tests, they are local. So there are national tests that we accept – many of them, but there are many different experiences. For example, a TOEFL is only two years, and each test has a different experience and date. So we will look at that very closely for your second language, if English is your native language. And for instance, if you for example, hold your bachelor’s in Spanish, it would be validated, too. The second language is like a C1, so it’s fluent that we require, and it’s an admissions requirement.
Now for the third language, it’s an exit language, so you need it to graduate. And we do not give the diploma if you have not validated your third language. Knowing that, the level that we require is much lower. It’s an A1. When I’m talking to candidates or prospects, I always, always encourage them to get that language policy cleared before they start, because the program is very intense. And they prefer to invest their time with other things than learning the language. But for us, it’s like in our DNA, and this open mindedness and being able to make the most of this super international exposure, we want you to have these three languages with you upon graduation.
Would your entry-level requirement be that the person has speaking comprehension and speaking ability, and some writing ability, or fluent writing ability? And the exit requirement, what would that be? I realize there are stricter requirements, I’m just trying to make it a little bit easier to grasp. [20:43][TP] The second language is quite strict. You have to go through the three levels to be a C1, which is fluent. You have to be able to write.
The exit language, which is A2, is more of a little bit of everything. So not very complicated sentences. You don’t have to be able to write a proper essay, but you would be able to write an email.
Now, INSEAD clearly lists its admissions criteria, and your website says their ability to contribute, academic capacity, international motivation, leadership potential. I’m sure you know this, you don’t need me to tell them to you. Where are you most likely to see those qualities in the different elements of the INSEAD application? [21:32][TP] It’s interesting, because when I’m running, I run application workshops very often. And I always, my first slide is with this, four pictures of these four admissions criteria. And I always tell them, “Whatever information you share with us, be sure that it falls in one of these buckets.” And a follow-up, of course is, “But what’s more important?” “No. I said it’s holistic,” and I’m always saying the same. I’m always sharing with people, “At INSEAD, we’re human beings behind admissions process. There are people reading applications.” And people are like, they begin this conspiracy theories like, “Oh, so you put our CVs in a scan, and they give you like…” “No. It’s nothing like that. It’s all about holistic, and we try to see everything.”
So we have a lot of essays, which we are aware, we know that we ask for many essays compared to other schools. But we really want to know. And it’s not only about us deciding if you are a good candidate for INSEAD or not, but if this is what you want, this is what you need to get wherever you want to go. So these four criteria, and that’s why we are so clear about it, they need to be covered in your application. It’s interesting because, as I think we’ll talk to the Kira video, but the pre-selection decision is purely based on what we’ve received in the application form. And we need to be sure that those four criteria are met.
Do you typically find, I would assume that academic capacity, you typically find in the transcript and the test score? [23:22][TP] Yes.
International motivation would probably show up in your resume and your activities, as well as the essays. [23:29][TP] International motivation is my favorite because it’s who we are. So international motivation is about us being sure that you’re not only going to be comfortable with such diversity in the class, but they’re going to embrace it. And that you’re going to be, and you know how much you’re going to learn from this diversity, and you’re going to make the most out of it. So we need to be sure of this, and how do we see it?
So the most common, and where most of our candidates really check those boxes is because they’ve gone through international experiences before, themselves. Either studying, either working abroad, and we do believe that this aspect in your life, it’s a big experience that makes you who you are, in a way. You’ve gone abroad, you’ve gone to a different culture, you had to adapt, you had to make some compromises, you learned so many things about it.
So we get that from previous experiences. Also, in other cases, we have candidates that didn’t have the opportunity of living abroad, or having this experience. So we ask them to tell us how they’ve been in an international environment, and how they felt about it. So either you’re working in a country where there are many people from different nationalities, either you work in a very international company, and you have to… I was going to say deal, but you have to collaborate, and you have to interact with other nationalities from other countries. So that’s what we are looking for. So we do ask, in the essays, “What has been your experience?” And we also ask a detailed list of the international experiences you’ve had in the past.
In advising clients, we sometimes talk about multicultural exposure. So as you say, some applicants might live in a diverse country, in many different cultures, within their own country. It’s not homogenous, it’s a heterogeneous culture. [25:21][TP] And nowadays, most of the countries are like that. That’s why companies are always looking for people who are thriving in these kinds of societies.
And the ability to contribute, I would assume, also will come really throughout the application. [25:47][TP] The ability to contribute and leadership potential come a lot, also, through the essays.
The question is, “What is it that you bring to the class?” You want to be sure that when you raise your hand, you’re going to share experiences, share what you know, ask the correct questions. And those questions and those contributions are going to come from your past experience.
You mentioned the video a second ago. What is the role of the video interview in the evaluation process? [26:18][TP] We are very happy with the video. We love the video. And our message to candidates is always, “Be yourself.” So when I’m presenting these application workshops, I put a picture of Salvador Dali, who is one of our most well-known artists in Spain, because he was genuine. He was himself, and he wasn’t shy to show who he was. And it’s about that. I’m always telling, “We are not expecting you to be a BBC reporter, unless you were a BBC reporter.”
So don’t try to use those fancy words, or things that you think that are… But be yourself. So what we’re looking for here, the role is to see who you are, in a way, and communication skills. The video will reassure us a lot also on the English level, and the fluidity when people speak. I understand it’s stressful, so we always recommend candidates, there’s a practice part in the platform. I always say, “Practice, practice, practice.” There are four questions, and you’ve got 45 seconds to prepare, and 60 to respond. I strongly recommend candidates that they use those 45 seconds to work on their structure. What is it that they want to say? And then, be yourself. I always tell the story that we had a candidate who was a professional break-dancer, and he just went to the floor, and he danced. Amazing.
We loved it. It’s a great story. And this is because sometimes, and I understand the, “Oh, instead, I’m going to try to use fancy words.” No, because you’re going to lose the point of the video, which is, we want to hear you.
And that’s why we’ve got four questions. And I always say that we read applications to try to look into it and accept you, not to reject you. That’s why it’s important that you are yourself, because for the writing, we already have your essays.
Stern at NYU Abu DhabiDr. Robert Salomon, as I mentioned, is the inaugural Dean of Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi, the newest program among the four. He answers questions about the program’s 12-month structure, NYU AD’s admissions process, and why Abu Dhabi, and why now? Let’s start with an overview of NYU’s Abu Dhabi MBA program. Can you please provide us with one? [28:41][RS] We are opening here a full-time MBA program. It’s going to be a 12-month accelerated MBA program that will run from January through December. And the first class will start in January of 2025.
You’re really just getting going. You’re not going to have a class this year, you’re just getting going for the following year, really. [29:22][RS] Right. We’ll start a year from January. Although the website is now live, the application is available, it can be downloaded, people can start it, and we are accepting applications now. The first deadline comes up January 15th, but people can start applying now.
It takes a while to put together a good application, so that makes a lot of sense. Is this program aimed for people in the Middle East, who want a US MBA? Or is it aimed for people anywhere in the world, who want to focus on business in the Middle East? What’s the goal of the program? [29:47] [RS] The program is for anybody in the world, and what we would like, however, is that people who are interested in the region, people who are interested in the potential of building a career in Abu Dhabi, in the UAE, places like Dubai or the broader region. So we’re happy to consider applications from anybody, anywhere, but we are hopefully going to be preparing people for careers in the region.
Now, that said, what people get in the classroom here isn’t going to be very different from what they get in the classroom in New York or in MBA programs elsewhere. They’re going to be prepared to be business leaders, and business managers, so they’re going to get the same kinds of core courses that they get in New York. We are bringing the same robust MBA program that we offer in New York, here to Abu Dhabi. And we hope that this program will be appealing to people the world over, not just in the region, but also beyond.
Will the professors be traveling from New York City to Abu Dhabi, or will there be online courses? Part of the robustness of the NYU program is the faculty. [31:00][RS] Yeah. And this will be an in-person program. At the moment, we don’t have any plans for online content. And just as we have a top-notch faculty, world-class faculty in New York, we will be building a faculty here in Abu Dhabi as well. So we will be hiring to the standards that we have in New York, the kind of faculty that we have in New York. Now, saying that there is from time to time, every once in a while, faculty might come over here and there to teach a specific course if they have a specific expertise, and they will offer that course here in Abu Dhabi.
In addition to that, we also have a module of the entire program. One module, or about two and a half months of the program, will take place in New York City. So students will be in New York during the summer months, I think it’s from the end of May to mid-August. They’ll be taking classes in New York and they will be taught by our faculty, our renowned faculty in New York City.
Will the program focus at all on the business of energy, since it’s going to be located in the Middle East, and specifically in the Persian Gulf? [32:15][RS] That won’t be a specific focus of this program. We will have several specializations in this program. So the specializations we intend to offer at the beginning include finance, leadership and strategy, technology innovation, and entrepreneurship/ marketing. And potentially, we’re also considering sustainability. So if anything, yeah, I mean there might be sort of a slight energy focus. But on the next wave of energy, sort of how do we transition into the next energy regime, away from fossil fuels, away from petroleum-based energy.
They’re preparing for a future without oil, without fossil fuels, and they are diversifying their economy now in order, so that once that day arrives when the last barrel of oil rolls off the assembly line, or however we want to describe that analogy, that they have other industries that are here, and vibrant, that can sustain the economy.
You mentioned that there are going to be roughly three months or two modules of the program in New York City. Can I ask why? [33:40][RS] Well we are a NYU program. We are NYU Stern, as well, and one of the reasons that we want to bring students to New York City is so that they get to know and make connections to the home university. So that’s part of it. So they get to know New York, they get to know NYU, they get to know NYU Stern.
The other piece of this is that this is a global degree program. This is a program that is preparing students to participate in the global economy. And what better way than to have them learn about the global economy, than to be not just in one singular place, but to also have a global experience. And for those in this program, that means not just being in Abu Dhabi, but also going somewhere else. And we have a campus in New York, with an outstanding faculty, a world-class faculty there. So why not bring the students there?
And that’s part of, if you look at many of our other programs at NYU Stern, they also have global components. And those global components are meant to prepare people for the realities, the business realities, of the world that they live in.
Also, New York City is one of the capitals of business in the world. [34:59]Yeah, absolutely.
Are there any language requirements for NYU AD? Is Arabic something that’s encouraged, or required? [35:09][RS] No. All languages are encouraged. I think if you have the opportunity to learn another language, the answer should always be yes. I mean, that’s an amazing gift, and an amazing thing to be able to speak multiple languages. But there is no requirement at Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi, for people to speak anything other than English. And English, spoken widely, here in the UAE. Just about everybody speaks English, all the signs are in English, and the classes will be in English as well.
Okay, great. I noticed that NYU AD, like NYU Stern in New York City, NYU Stern in Abu Dhabi accepts many tests, and also offers a test waiver option. Who should seek a test waiver, and who shouldn’t seek a test waiver, in your opinion? [35:46][RS] I want to preface this by saying when it comes to admissions, I’m not an expert. I come from the program side. So I’ve been a scholar, I’m a professor, I’m a researcher. That’s my background. And I’ve come from running programs. I’ve been running different kinds of MBA programs for Stern, and master’s programs, and executive programs for Stern for quite a while. So I’m really familiar with the programmatic side.
I’m less knowledgeable when it comes to admissions kinds of things, but let me just try and answer the question as best I can, with the caveat that I may not… I mean, generally I think the answer I’m going to give you is accurate, but I want to just caveat it with, that I might be making some mistakes on the margins.
So when it comes to test waivers, the kinds of folks who should be seeking test waivers, I would say, are those who feel like they are well-equipped in the areas that are associated with an MBA degree. And what areas are those? I would say, if you have a STEM degree, if you already have a degree in engineering, where you can demonstrate… And you did very, very well in school, in your engineering program, and you can demonstrate that you performed very well, especially in your math classes. That would be the kind of individual who might want to request a test waiver. If you went to an undergraduate business program, and you’ve already demonstrated through your completion of that program that you can handle the rigors of an MBA program, because you already have the qualifications, and you did very, very well in your undergraduate business program. Those are the kinds of folks that should or could potentially be requesting a test waiver or might be granted a test waiver.
So basically, if you have sort of a STEM-y background, and your degree is from a widely respected, accredited university, and you’ve performed very, very well in the classroom, especially in your math-based classes. Those are the kinds of folks who typically qualify for test waivers.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [38:19][RS] I think one of the questions that I was thinking about in preparation for this is, why here and why now?
I mean, I think part of it is that if you think about Abu Dhabi, and again, going back to something that I mentioned before. Abu Dhabi is increasingly becoming a world capital that’s connected to other world capitals, and it’s connected to other world capitals more each and every day. It’s becoming more, as you mentioned, it’s becoming more of a finance capital. It’s becoming more of a sustainability capital. It’s becoming more of a business capital. It’s becoming more of a consumer products capital. It’s becoming a technology capital, it’s becoming a FinTech capital.
All of these things that the UAE, and Abu Dhabi in particular is investing in, because they see the need to diversify away their economy away from fossil fuels and towards a more knowledge-based, services-based economy. For us, when we were researching and thinking about this as a location, when you speak to companies and you talk to them and you say, “What is it that you need in order to accomplish these goals that you have?” We hear the same answers over and over and over again, which is, “We need people who have managerial skills.” You talk to even private or public employers here in the region, they say, “There is a need for people with managerial skills to help us with that transition, to be a part of that, to help propel it.” Ultimately, these are the folks who are going to become the leaders in this region, and they are going to be a part of that transition away from an energy fossil fuels based economy, towards this new knowledge-based, services-based economy.
So when we were thinking about it, what better location than to do that, right here? We already have a campus here. We’ve already built a stellar faculty here. We’ve been operating here for more than a decade, we know the market, and so we feel like now is the right time to be the first ones, the first top US business school to offer a full-time MBA in the region.
There’s tremendous talent here, too. There’s a lot of young people who have an incredible desire to upskill, too. So that was also part of it. So the employers are asking for it, on the demand side for our graduates, and on the supply side, the prospective applicants, the students really want it, because they see the need to upskill as well.
HEC Paris MBAFinally, we have the most recent guest on Admissions Straight Talk, HEC’s Sara Vanos, and she shares:* An overview of the program * An insider perspective of the admissions process * What she feels are the most common applicant mistakes.
I’d like to start with some general questions about HEC Paris, and then get more specific and focused on admissions for the full-time MBA program. Can you start by just giving us a very high level overview of HEC’s three MBA programs? [40:57][SV] Sure, I’d be happy to. So we have our full-time MBA program, which is a 16-month program, which can be residential. So we have on-campus housing, or you can live off campus. So that’s in our Jouy-en-Josas campus, which is quite close to Paris. You can do specialization, you can do electives, plus your core, plus all kinds of other sort of surprises and leadership activities. So that would be our full-time MBA.
Then we have our executive MBA, that can take anywhere from 15 to 21 months, because it’s part-time. It’s either modular or block, so you come on campus every two months, or you can do every other weekend in Paris. It’s typically for more senior professionals, so the average age is 40, usually some management experience. And then we have anything from directors to CEOs to CFOs in that program. So, a very senior crowd.
And then we have TRIUM, which is one of our flagship partnership programs. So it’s in partnership with LSC and also NYU, even slightly more senior profiles that join that program. And it’s really exciting, because it takes place in modules all over the world.
How long is that program? [42:27][SV] So usually that one is just almost 20 months.
Let’s zoom in on the full-time MBA program’s more notable and distinctive elements. Can you describe them? You’ve hinted at them a little bit. By the way, I once visited HEC Paris. It is gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. [42:34][SV] Yes, one, I agree. So I commute from Paris every day to go on campus, so it’s actually really easy to reach. And like you said, it’s beautiful. So it’s a wooded, private acres of a forest, tennis courts, a chateau of its own, and of course our other programs. But the one that we’ll zoom in on now is the MBA. So, a beautiful campus with a possibility to live on campus, which is kind of interesting and different because a lot of MBA programs, you’re kind of spread out everywhere. So we feel that having this on-campus housing really builds the community from day one, because you’re with about 80% of the students living in our residential housing, you can easily attend club activities, different community events. So you really foster that connection from day one.
If we start with kind of the curriculum or notable things there, I think the 16 months is really unique. So typically, you’re looking at an MBA, where do I do it? How long, my ROI, et cetera. So we’ve kind of found the sweet spot. So you can either do 12 or 16 months, depending on your intake. So it can be a little shorter than the longer programs, but you get all of the benefits of the longer programs. So electives, specialization, participation in our MBA Olympics, New Horizons, which is broadening your horizons and figuring out kind of how to anticipate trends. So that’s unique.
We have a pretty smaller class than, I would say, some of the larger class sizes. So usually, an average of about 300 students coming in two intakes, and you can start in September or January. So that’s also unique.
I think if we say, maybe one takeaway from these things I’ve kind of thrown out there, would be flexibility and customization. So I know that’s what a lot of people look for in their program. So whether it’s program length, how to specialize what you take, so we have these specializations, which electives. Where you live, if you live on campus, all of that really offers the flexibility to have a great experience.
What do you look for besides stats? You’ve mentioned a little bit, maybe you can just give a little more on that. [44:46][SV] So typically, we will assess everyone. So we’ll start by looking at their CV. So that’s one of the criteria. We’ll look at the GMAT, GRA test. These are things that kind of all follow and compliment each other. We look at previous academic backgrounds. So, which school did you go to? What did you study? And again, we try to tie all of this back to the motivation, so there’s a motivational paragraph where you get to explain what’s next, why an MBA? So we’re kind of trying to look holistically, as discussed. We looked at extracurriculars.
We also look at languages. So we think it can be interesting, even if you’ve just started to learn a language, if your goal is to work in France, it can be helpful if you’ve already started learning. It’s not necessary, but we do look at that in terms of, again, motivation, career desires, and outcomes.
We look at the essays, so we read all of the essays, and then discuss them. So sometimes things can jump out. Some of them are kind of creative. So I would say in there, depending on the essay topic, we’re looking for different things. The additional essay is something that maybe only 10 to 20% of students use, but it’s extremely interesting, because it’s where you can add anything that we might not have known about you. And it’s often where we learn something extremely interesting. So I would say that’s something to look at.
Where we also evaluate, but it’s at a later state, would be the interviews. So, how did it go with your alumni interviewer? How did the alumni interviewer rate your presentation? Because you have to make a presentation, the communication skills and motivation, et cetera. I think those are all of the main buckets, if I’m thinking through them.
There’s none that’s weighted super heavily. They’re all kind of pairing together, and matching together. And even if someone didn’t have the perfect application, because we discuss each and every profile in a jury of several members, there are other things that can come into play. So for example, our marketing or recruitment managers try to have a call or meet everyone that comes in the program. So it can be very interesting, because often they’ll add complimentary information that can boost, almost, if somebody forgot something and the marketing and recruitment manager knows they can also talk about their conversation, talk about things like that. So I think that’s also somewhere that can add value.
What’s the most common mistake that you see applicants making in the application process? [47:02][SV] Yeah, it’s a funny one. Usually we let it go, because it’s so common, but a lot of people will cut and paste essays, and keep the other schools that they’re applying to. It’s okay, because we know that they’re applying to multiple schools. But sometimes people will say, “I’m applying to HEC only,” and then they will cut and paste an essay and a CV where they cite another school. It’s the most common one. I think, for the admissions team, we are rather used to it. We know that it can happen. We know, “Okay, it’s an oversight. Maybe the person is not super detail-oriented,” but where it can have a larger impact is our alumni will have access to the application of the person who’s applied and moved into an interview round. So for, I would say our alumni, it’s a more big mistake because they want people who are diehard HEC, they want them to love HEC, to only be thinking about HEC. So, common.
Easy though, I think, for applicants to take a quick double check. Put a PDF of your application file, look the whole thing through, and just look for these very small but easy to fix things, I would say.
Yeah, and this is one of the things that comes up repeatedly from admission directors. My suggestion for applicants is, if you are adapting essays from another school, don’t cut and paste, number one. But if you are adapting essays from another school, when you start that process… Not at the end, when you start, do a find and replace. That way you will not miss it. Just do it at the beginning. Okay? Do it then, and it’s taken care of, you won’t be making the mistake that Sara just mentioned.After listening to this episode, did you detect some common themes? What are the differences with US programs, like language requirements for some? Now it’s your chance, your opportunity to apply to programs that fit your goals, your needs, your finances, and your wants. And that is likely to want you. If you’d like help in presenting the best of the authentic you to any of these, or other top MBA programs in the United States or in Europe, or the EU, I should say. Please contact Accepted for guidance in presenting your best self, and polishing that gem of an application.
Relevant Links:
- Accepted’s MBA Calculator Quiz
- HEC Paris MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines [2022 – 2023] & Podcast Episode 565 with Sara Vanos
- INSEAD MBA Essay Tips & Deadlines [2022 – 2023]
- NYU Stern MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines [2023-2024], Class Profile
- Oxford Saïd MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines [2022 – 2023]
Relevant shows:
- How to Get into HEC Paris MBA?, podcast Episode 565
- Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi: A Full-Time MBA in the Middle East, podcast Episode 549
- How to Get Accepted to Oxford Said Business School, podcast Episode 457
- Get Into INSEAD, the Business School for the World, podcast Episode 520
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Show SummaryIn this episode, Linda Abraham interviews Christian Essman, Senior Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Case Western Reserve University Medical School. They discuss the unique aspects of Case Western’s three MD programs, the significance of research in the application process, and what makes an applicant stand out. Christian emphasizes the importance of quality experiences and reflections in the application essays and advises applicants to submit their applications when they are in tip-top shape, rather than rushing to submit on the first day. He also discusses the culture at Case Western, describing it as laid-back, balanced, and invested in the success of its students.
Show NotesThanks for tuning into the 571st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
I’m delighted to introduce today’s guest, Christian Essman, senior director of admissions and financial aid and fellow podcaster and host of the All Access Med School Admissions Podcast.
Christian, thank you so much for joining me today on Admissions Straight Talk. [1:31]Hi, Linda. Delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.
Let’s start with some just really basic information about Case Western University’s medical school programs. Can you give a 30,000-foot perspective or view of the three MD programs that it offers? [1:39]Certainly. We’re a bit unique in that we have not one, not two, but three different pathways to an MD/MD-PhD. The first one is the university program, which is our four-year MD, which is a traditional four-year degree. Then we have our MD-PhD program, which is a medical scientist training program, and that’s about eight or nine years. MSTP actually started at Case Western back in the 1950s, by the way. It’s the longest NIH-funded program ever in the history of the universe. And then the one in the middle is unique. I don’t know if the word boutiquey is a word, but it’s boutiquey. Our Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine. So these are all three Case Western programs. They’re under the umbrella of the university and they’re all Case Western students, but we have three tracks.
So the one in the middle, the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine, is a five-year MD and it’s for students who really like research. Really, really, really like research. But maybe advancing to an MD-PhD is not an educational goal to be in school for eight or nine years and getting a PhD, but they really like research. And so the reason why it’s five years is because they thread research throughout the entire five years that you’re there. And at one point students will step away usually after the second year to do 12 months of research with the results of hopefully having some publishable results. And so it’s for students who might be considering MD-PhD, maybe they’re also applying to MD-PhD. So it’s one in the middle there and so that’s why we have three different tracks. It’s a bit unique.
It is unique. I don’t know of any other school that has that three structured program. [3:36]When people apply to us in AMCAS, they apply to Case Western and then in the secondary application, they can indicate which program or programs plural that they want to apply to. And so you could apply to the university program and the Cleveland Clinic program and then you get separate admissions decisions. We review them separately. So it’s two for one or three for one if you want to think of it that way. But I will say this. Very few students apply to all three. Usually, if you’re interested in MD-PhD, that’s what you’re applying to, and then maybe add in Cleveland Clinic, but very few applicants apply to all three.
We evaluate everybody separately. So I don’t call to my colleagues down the hallway and say, “Hey, Cleveland Clinic friends, what are you guys doing with this applicant?” We don’t have those conversations. So it’s possible to get interviews at two programs and then be accepted to both and then you decide, or you could be interviewed at one and not the other or interview both and be accepted and waitlisted at the other. So there are all kinds of permutations that can happen after that.
Let’s dive into the biggest program, the four-year MD program. Can you provide an overview of that program focusing on its more distinctive elements, how is it structured, what is the focus, et cetera? [4:58]The university program is our largest program. The class size is 170. And a couple of the cornerstones of this program would be a lot of small-group. team-based learning. Problem-based learning that in the first two years that is likely the main vehicle for medical education delivery in the first two years. We talk to students when they matriculate. We do some fun little focus groups with first years after they come here and sit down with them and ask them things about the interview process that they went through the year prior. And oftentimes, those new first years will tell us one thing that stuck out about this university program is that you guys say you do small-group learning and you mean it. It’s three, sometimes four days a week for two years. Whereas some other schools, “Oh yeah, we do small group learning.” But it’s like once every six weeks. For students that like to work in small-group, intimate, collaborative learning environments this is something really to think about very carefully because that’s where a majority of the learning takes place. There are lectures that occur afterward, framing bigger picture topics, but really the main vehicle where students roll up their sleeves and get into the material and learn how to unpack the basic sciences with the clinical sciences, that’s where it happens.
Another cornerstone of the university program would be the research piece. I mentioned a few moments ago we have three tracks. All three tracks have research embedded within it. The difference is the intensity level. So I mentioned the Cleveland Clinic program has a 12-month research focus. The PhD clearly has a PhD embedded within it. The university program has a scholarly project. We call it a thesis, but it’s not a master’s level thesis. Secretly in our office … I’m going to let the secret out. We call it a “diet thesis” or a “thesis lite” if you will. So it’s experiential research that every student gets involved in. So they choose a project, it’s a mentored thesis, and so they can dip their toe into what medical research can look like. It’s not about churning out physicians and scientists out of the university program. We have two other programs that that’s their philosophy. This is about exposing all of our students to medical research so they gain an appreciation for the time and effort and sometimes the blood, sweat and tears that go into one manuscript because we know that after they leave here, they’re going to be getting journals for the rest of their lives and to have an appreciation for the inquiry that goes into one manuscript and learn how to critically analyze articles and do literature reviews is the purpose of that.
Now, some students will sink their teeth into it a little bit more than others, but at the end of the day, everybody will have research on their resume, a.k.a. their residency application. So that’s another glow that might come out of that as well.
And I think the last pillar would be innovation. We are a university that prides itself on not being afraid to try new technology. And one of the features of our university program is how we incorporate Microsoft HoloLens into our anatomy program. We are the first university to partner with Microsoft to build HoloAnatomy, and it’s using the HoloLens goggles to complement our anatomy program. And so they do HoloAnatomy usually two days a week for two years. We do cadaveric dissection early on in their first year for two weeks. So really, we call it dissection bootcamp. But after that we incorporate HoloAnatomy after that. So they build on what they saw in dissection and using Microsoft HoloAnatomy. It’s amazing technology.
It’s basically a form of simulation? [8:55]Yeah. It’s augmented reality. I had to learn this stuff. Virtual reality is where you put the goggles on, you can’t see anything, so you’re immersed into an environment virtually. Augmented reality is … These look like big sunglasses, so we can all see each other, but in front of us is a hologram of a humorous, of a thorax, of an entire person, whatever they want us to focus in on. You can walk around it, stick your head in it … You move in and out of it. It’s pretty amazing stuff. So we’re the first school to implement that and build it. And now other institutions across the country are using HoloAnatomy, like Northwestern is using it, TCU, down in Texas, Oxford University over in London or in England. Linda, I’ll tell you, I think in the next five or 10 years, you’re going to see more med schools incorporating VR, AR into their curricula. I know Kaiser Permanente has their own thing that they have incorporated into their curricula. So I think we’re going to see more schools … But that’s the thing in academia. Things can sometimes move slowly. We’re not one of those schools that wait sometimes. This is a very techy place too sometimes.
One thing I think you’ve innovated, I don’t know if you’re the first, but certainly somewhat uncommon, is that you have a stated MCAT cutoff. It’s a fairly low cutoff, but it’s a stated cutoff. Why have you chosen to provide it? [10:24]Yeah. I talked to a couple of my friends at other med schools that have published cutoffs, and one of the reasons why Linda, was because in the application pool, we sometimes see people that have metrics that are not going to be viable as a candidate to our medical school. It’s just not going to get through admissions committee. And one of those metrics that we looked at very closely was the MCAT. And so ’23, ’24 was the first year that we implemented it .So let’s start low and see how it goes. And we might bump it up again this year, taking a closer look at it through the data as we wrap up this cycle. But it really, Linda, it came down to … And this is probably not the best phrase. But to say be cruel, to be kind. Because there’s just some people that when you see some of the metrics and MCAT scores that are below 495, they’re just not going to get through admissions committee.
And I would like to have gotten my hands on them to say, maybe save that money that you paid to check us off on AMCAS and then you paid us on the secondary. This stuff adds up quickly. I wish I could have gotten my hands and say, hold off. If you have plans to retake the MCAT, do it again another time. But I can tell you this is not going to get through admissions committee. As you know, it’s insanely competitive to apply to medical school. So that’s why we started that experiment. We piloted it last year to see how it goes and how did it affect our application numbers and it really didn’t that much. And so that’s something we’re going to continue to look at. It’s that cruel to be kind I think.
I think you’re being kind. I think you’re forcing a certain realism and are saving applicants’ money and time and heartache and sweat. I think it is more kindness than cruelty in there. [12:25]Well, thank you for giving us a little validation from your perspective. It’s not easy, and like I said, we might bump it up again this year. We haven’t met. We’re going to be meeting it as a committee in the next couple of months to evaluate it again. The numbers matter. We try to do a holistic review, but at some point, there’s got to be a little bit of a line of do we think this student’s going to be successful in a rigorous curriculum because med school is not easy wherever you go. We have a crystal ball we have to look into and that’s the academic track record, and that’s what we have to go on when we’re doing evaluations.
I’m not criticizing other schools that don’t have the cutoff, but you have to wonder sometimes if not having the cutoff like that, admittedly, most students will look at the stat, and they’re not completely out to lunch in terms of their applications. But you have to wonder sometimes if they’re not pumping up their numbers for selfish reasons by not having a cutoff. So again, I don’t mean to be speaking badly of the other schools, but I think there is a service being provided by giving that cutoff. [13:26]We had to talk about it with our finance department because they said, if we don’t bring these in, how much … And they were like, okay, we get what you’re trying to do, go ahead and do it, and then we’ll talk about it next spring and see what you want to do.
You’ve mentioned how research is a component of all three programs at Case Western. Is prior research a must-have or a nice-to-have when applying to any of the three programs, but in particular, the MD program? [14:10]I’ll start with the university program, the four-year MD. And we state that research is not required to apply to that four-year program. We define research very broadly, and so we even have an essay in our secondary: Tell us about any research or scholarly work that you’ve done and what you learn from it. We also put examples. This could be an honors thesis that you did in undergrad or a capstone project. It doesn’t have to be medically related or clinically related or basic science. It could be you did a capstone project in literature or in anthropology or something. So just to show that you’ve done a … Because I think in all those you could clearly say they applied the scientific method, the scientific principles, and just to see what they took away from it. If somebody says, I have not done research, that’s okay. We have programming within our curriculum to teach students how to start to get research teed up.
So we have students that come to us every year who’ve not done formal research before. That said, though, I will say that in our matriculating class when the melt all happens and we get down to it, about 90 to 95% of our incoming students have had some research. And again, defined very broadly, honors thesis, capstone project, things like that. But there are students who haven’t had it and it’s because they’ve had other things going on, which was maybe in athletics or they were employed and working a lot, or they’re a non-traditional student and didn’t participate in research, but they’ve been doing a postbac programs. There’s always other stories going on within the application that tell us, oh, well … We don’t go looking for research, but we see it if they have it and if they don’t, we go, oh, well look at all the other cool stuff they were doing.
So we try to put that story together. When it comes to the learner program, the Cleveland Clinic program and the MSTP, you clearly have to have research.The ethos of those programs is very baked in research. They value longitudinal research. And what I mean by longitudinal is more than two summers of doing 10 weeks of summer research across an academic year or in a postgraduate situation where you’re doing maybe a year or two at the NIH or something at a hospital for a year or a year and a half. They need to know that you’re invested in this type of future lifestyle, the academics behind it, that you are into the ethos of those programs.
Is publication required for those programs? Presentation? [16:56]That’s a good question, Linda. Prospective applicants ask me all the time, if I’m applying to MD-PhD, do I have to have a publication or if I’m applying to the Learner program, the answer is no, not necessarily. The way I contextualize it is what if you’re in a lab that’s doing a longitudinal study across years and you’re plopping in and you’re three because you’re a junior or senior or something, and they’re just not at the point where they’re ready to publish anything, but yet you’re working on a larger piece of that puzzle right now that’s going to contribute to the longitudinal work, but you’re just not they’re not there as a lab right now. We can’t penalize you for that.
That said, maybe the work that you do do in that lab can be turned into an abstract or a poster presentation when there is some results that you think are worthy of showing people that. So there’s that aspect. But we’re not a school that is going through and saying they have X number of publications, interview. And even so I know some of our scientists, if you have publications, they’ll look into them. Sometimes people fluff their application with some publications that are just like, oh, this was peer-reviewed. It can sometimes not be to your advantage if you’re just pumping out something just to say you have your name on a paper. Does that make sense?
Yes, it does. It makes a lot of sense for sure. One of the things I’ve noticed with applicants is they are very numbers-focused. A lot of times applicants say, I have so many hours of shadowing, is that enough? I have so many hours of clinical experience. Is that enough if I have so many hours of non-clinical volunteering, is that enough? So let’s start first with shadowing. Is shadowing required to apply to Case Western? And if so, how much is required? And what about virtual shadowing?Okay. So we do not overtly say shadowing is required, but I think it’s written down there. It says strongly recommended. And a lot of med schools are in that camp I think. Because the simple matter is we need to know that you know what you’re getting yourself into. That’s what it boils down to in a way. And so while it’s strongly recommended, we don’t have a certain number of hours that we’re looking for, but it comes down to quality, not quantity. That said though, a little bit of nuance here, it should be more than eight hours. More than a working day to really spend some time with people. Maybe it’s a few physicians to see medicine through different lenses, whether it’s pediatrics and a oncology and cardiology, to really see a little bit of a scope of what the practice, lifestyle profession looks like. It should be a little more than the teens, I think. Because then this will come out in an interview situation, are they able to articulate some of the reflections and insights they gained from being in those clinics or in those situations or rubbing elbows with physicians? That’s where it’s going to come out, whether it was quality or quantity.
And serendipitously or coincidentally, yesterday I was working on some data some people were asking me for, and in the last entering class last year, the average number of shadowing hours for our entering class was 126.
Wow. That’s a lot. [20:46]Yeah. The year prior to that 2022, it was also 126. So that was shadowing hours and then medically related. So whether that’s paid employment, medically related. Scribing is the new cottage industry for pre-medical students. It’s great. Get paid to be in the emergency department working with physicians, nurses, and all the staff and being in the room and behind the curtain with patients and seeing all that stuff. That’s amazing. What a great opportunity. And so I looked at that, those numbers, and the average number is 1,516 hours of paid medically related employment.
Medically-related volunteers came in at 376 hours. I think that’s who matriculated with us so it’s an average across 170. And we’re not looking for certain numbers that were like hit this average or below the average. This is not data that we give to our screeners to benchmark people. But I think it goes to show that our admissions committee values rich experiences, whether it’s shadowing medically related things, paid employment or volunteering. I think that demonstrates that our committee looks very closely at quality experiences and then clearly the students were able to articulate their observations and their understanding of what this profession means.
I was smiling when you mentioned quality, because I sometimes get questions as I mentioned earlier, “I have X hours of this, Y hours of that Z hours of that. I have this MCAT and I have that GPA. It’s all competitive. Why didn’t I get accepted?” We get a lot of re-applicants coming to us. And I’ll say, “Well, how did you present it? Did you bring your insights to it? Did you talk about what you learned? Did you talk about how you contributed? Did you talk about how you grew from the experience?” And they’re like, “I don’t know.” And of course then the next question is, “Do I have to rewrite my stuff?” [22:25]Usually.
Right. If it didn’t work last time, why do you think it’s going to work this time? [23:09]Right. Don’t slap the same thing out there next time.
Let’s say somebody was a scribe in different specialties. Are you still going to want to see shadowing? [23:48]No. Maybe not. No.
Another thing that I’ve said many times is shadowing is a great way to start exploring clinical medicine. It’s a terrible way to end it. It’s not participatory. [24:04]If I could add something to that too. You asked me about virtual shadowing. I want to mention since you mentioned what if somebody was a scribe, let’s say in emergency department and they were also an EMT. Now, I think or admissions committees could argue their scope or lens is very narrow on what medicine could look like because it’s at the pre-hospital and emergency stage. We’re in and out. I’m not devaluing it, but I think if an applicant has that profile, they may want to compliment it with more experience. If you’re working in an emergency department, you have access. You have a built-in network. Talk to people. Say, Hey, when cardiology comes down for the consult, neurology is being called down for a consult, get introduced or introduce yourself. Say, Hey, can I sometimes hang out with you guys? I’m pre-med blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So take advantage of that. But I think what somebody could argue, maybe their view is very narrow, what medicine really looks like if it’s just pre-hospital to emergency, wouldn’t it be nice to compliment it with something else? Pediatrics, neurology. Add one in whatever else you might be interested in or have a curiosity about. But that might add a little extra color then to the application and be able to then round out what that view can look like. And then again, being able to articulate that in an interview situation. I want to come back to virtual shadowing you asked me about.
I feel like Linda, we’re seeing as we get farther away from the pandemic applicants we’re seeing less and less of [virtual shadowing]. We haven’t really talked about it as a team, are we taking this or not? Because people had on their application. Now we’re getting to the point where people have virtual shadowing maybe from 2022 or 2021. And since then they’ve done other medically related activities. It was in the early stages, like 2021, 2020 were a little more of the virtual shadowing that we were ever seeing because it really wasn’t a thing prior to 2020. Now I think we’re seeing the back end of that and getting back to what traditional shadowing, medical related experiences can look like.
Let’s turn to the application itself. We’ve talked in general terms about some experiential requirements and nonrequirements. When you look at the secondary application specifically, what are you trying to glean from it that you don’t get from the primary? [26:53]Well, as you know, the primary has one main personal statement, “Tell us why you’re here, why are you applying to medical school, why you’re interested in medicine?” So we are getting that viewpoint. There are things in our secondary essays that we’re trying to drill a little bit more down on. And overall what we’re looking for is our additional evidence of reflection, insight, the ability to self-reflect. Maybe we might be able to tap into a little bit of emotional intelligence, social intelligence through some evidence that they might be sharing with us within their responses. And also, we have some other questions, is there anything else you’d like to share with us? Here’s an optional essay. Is there anything else that wasn’t captured anywhere in your application up to this point or something new? We could see all kinds of stuff in there. People write all kinds of things.
And then we ask a question, if you’re doing a gap year, tell us what you’ve been doing because that may not be captured clearly in the primary. So we get some insight there. But I think Linda, an overarching theme of what we’re looking for is more insight, more evidence of self-reflection, maturity, backstory, maybe other things that couldn’t be captured in the primary, like some of their backstory or challenges they faced or overcome and things like that. So it’s a broad range, but it helps us though then try to see when we are doing the interview is the person we’re meeting in the interview, the same person we met in the essays. And a lot of times, there’s a correlation there. It’s interesting.
Do you ever wonder if there’s some growth that’s taken place between the time they submitted the application and maturation? [28:54]Maybe.
Because you submit the primary maybe in June and you’re the secondary in July or August, and then you interview in February or March. [29:01]Yeah. It could have grown a bit.
It could be a positive thing, not just negative. Obviously, if they can’t put a sentence together in person and the essays are beautifully written and articulate, you might wonder about something else going on. But sometimes it can be growth. Especially if they’re doing a lot of interesting things. Case Western has four cornerstones or themes in its curriculum, at least per the website. Research and scholarship, which we’ve touched on, clinical mastery, which I think you also touched on in terms of the small group learning, and then there’s leadership and civic professionalism. How do successful applicants show that they share those values via their application? [29:10]Truth be told, our essay prompts aren’t written in a way that we’re looking for students to write themselves into those pillars that you just mentioned. We’re not. Our prompts are not written such that we’re looking for people to say, oh, they’re looking at leadership. I’m going to write all about leadership. We are not evaluating that way. So it’s broadly defined. We hope the applicants that we’re interested in are writing authentically about things that they’ve done, they’ve experienced, they’ve enjoyed, they’ve grown from not in a way that … And honestly, we’re not a mission-driven admissions office. My friend Leila Harrison at Washington State University, very mission-driven medical school. Spokane. Students from Washington staying in Washington, serving the residents of Washington state. We’re a little different than that. And so I think that we’re talking about creating a new value statement or mission statement for our medical education division that would then tie in admissions all the way through student affairs to graduation and curriculum. But our essay prompts are not written so that we’re looking for certain … They check all these boxes off in our four little pillars, and that’s our approach right now. Does that help?
What makes an applicant jump off the page for you? If it’s not mission fit, what is it? [31:36]I almost went there when you were asking me a few minutes ago about essay prompts. I was just at a fair at University of Michigan a week ago, and I got that question I can’t tell you how many times. And it’s a really common question. I get it. People want to know what makes somebody stand out in this pool of applicants? They’re all really … For the most part, most applicants playing in med school are stars.
They’re impressive people. [32:09]Yeah. And so the people are fascinated to know, what makes somebody be seen? And I’ll tell you what, I think it’s the way people write. It’s the way you write about things. And you mentioned it before when you’re talking about meeting with re-applicants. And they say, Linda, I’ve got this, this, and this got all these great things. Why didn’t I get an interview? And you’re like, well, how did you write about it? And this is where I think if an applicant is taking their time … And they need to understand, if you’re just getting into this process, there are 15 experience slots, if you will, and each one of them, you’re essentially going to have to write mini essays for each one. They give you 750 characters. And then of those 15, if you do 15 … I don’t think you have to do all 15. But you get to choose three of them to share more.
Why was this most meaningful? Why was this most influential? And they give you 1300 more characters. So you’re writing essays for a lot of these, and that’s a place where you could do a little storytelling or talk about how this challenged you and how you grew from it or how you’re still growing. That you know what? You’re not perfect and that’s okay to say, I had this challenged me and I’m still working on it. This has been hard, but it’s pushing me. It’s pushed me. And I think that’s where … And some students are really good at finding their writing voice. And there’s sometimes Linda, when I’m reading these applications, gosh, you feel like you’re hearing a conversation from somebody. Somebody is telling you about themselves in a way they write. It’s enjoyable to read.
Another common question, I guess is like, what’s the best application you’ve ever read? And I’ve read thousands of these. I’ve been here for almost 19 years, man. I can’t remember everything. But you remember the feelings of being like, whoa, that was really well written. And then when I interview somebody and I read their application to prep for it, and I really like … I’ll tell them in the first five minutes I’ve met them, I have to tell you, you wrote an amazing application. I enjoyed reading it. And I tell them that because I know how much time that went into that. And I think they need to hear that somebody appreciated their work and enjoyed the way they wrote because I know they put a lot of effort into it. You should acknowledge that to them. And I do. I like doing that. People are usually very flattered and stunned, I think at first.
They do put a lot of effort into it. There’s no question. [34:48]It takes a lot of time to do AMCAS.
I would say to Linda, if could tack onto that there. Sometimes I do this when I give talks to pre-medical students. Like, all right … Because people ask, how do you stand out? I’m like, okay, in the group who’s done shadowing, raise your hand. Whole room will raise their hand. Who’s done a little bit of research? Who’s volunteered raise your hand. How about tutoring, raise your hand. There’s a profile and that’s okay of a pre-medical student. There are certain things you’re doing to explore to get here. So everybody that might have a similar profile, then how do you stand out?
It comes down to the writing. How will you share what you’ve done in these things? And that’s what will make it really pop.
Just to add to what you said. I also would sometimes give a presentation and say, how many of you have volunteered? Hands go up. How many of you have shadowed? Hands go up. How many of you have researched? Hands go up. And then I’ll say, okay, how many of you have volunteered in a pediatric hematology oncology playroom? How many of you have worked at a soup kitchen in a particular neighborhood of Chicago? I’m from Los Angeles. I start getting much more specific. And suddenly, you either have no hands going up or one hand going up. And then, if they add their insights to that specific experience, you have an individual.You’re drilling down.
What makes for a great interview? [37:04]Interviewing can be an art. It’s not easy. It’s not easy. It can be difficult for some people. One, it’s hard sometimes. A lot of people aren’t used to talking about themselves. Some people that’s not in their nature. And so I think that is something first to become comfortable with. And that comes from a little bit of practice, a little bit of practice. Because the applicant should be prepared to talk about 75% of the time. So that’s a lot of talking on their end. And I think what makes for a good interview is if it feels conversational versus Q&A question, answer, question … Grilling. When we are training our interviewers, that’s one of the things we try to emphasize to them. We’re trying to get to know the person on the other end of Zoom here, not to grill them. They’re already going to be nervous. This is high stake stuff.
So we were trying to meet their authentic self of who’s showing up today, not create a big stress bag out of them and try to test them. That’s not our purpose here. So we try to train our interviews to make the questions that we have conversational. Hopefully that sets the stage so that the applicant can settle in a little bit and then start to have what should feel like conversational. But also having that ability to share insights, share some more of those reflections so that there’s substantive responses. That’s what makes for a good interview. Also, when I can learn something about them that I didn’t read in their application. There are some times when I’m interviewing a candidate and the stories that they tell and share are interesting, but it’s the same stuff I read in their application. And so sometimes you would leave the interview feeling like, okay, well I’ve met them and they were really nice and they communicated well, but I didn’t learn any new stories or anything new about them because they shared the same things they shared in their application. So if somebody can complement and add into some special sauce into their interview, share something new about themselves that I don’t already know, and somehow infuse it with some different storytelling, that makes an interesting interview.
It also shows them as dynamic, growing human beings. [39:41]I have more stories to tell, not just those three that were in my application.
That’s a great tip. Great tip. Thank you. Do you have any plans to require a situational judgment test? [39:50]We dabbled with it a couple of years ago, and we dabbled with CASPer. That was about three years ago now. And we didn’t get out of it what I thought we thought we were looking for in it, so we decided to pause on it. And then we looked closely at the AAMC’s SJT PREview and again, we’ve paused on that too. Both myself and Dr. Mehta, my dean, have been involved in the testing and creation of PREview as content experts. It was really interesting, and I think they have a good approach. I like the questions they ask and things. I think one thing we learned is that if we’re going to make an applicant go through that process, we need to be able to tie it to something within our admissions process, whether it’s tying it to something within our curriculum where we have something where we can measure like, oh, somebody has this PREview score and it means something in our curriculum here. We want to be able to have something measurable because it’s not free and it takes students time to do this.
And if we’re going to ask a student and an applicant to do this, we want to make it meaningful, not just a, oh, we’re just going to look at it. Maybe we’ll look at it, maybe we won’t look at it. I don’t know. We want to make sure we’re tying something to it so that it has purpose.
So not right now. We still haven’t gone down that back down that road yet.
What is Case Western’s position in terms of updates at different points in the application process? Some schools encourage updates. Some schools only after interview, some only if waitlisted. What’s Case Western’s position? [41:23]It’s program-specific. MSTP will accept updates. And I think it’s important for that applicant cohort because sometimes they have research updates that are coming in throughout the application cycle that they want to share. That makes sense. For the university program in our Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine, we do not accept updates at the time of application or during the application process unless you’re invited for an interview. And the reason why is look, MSTP, they get like 400 applications. University program, we got close to 7,800 applications last year, college program got about 2000 applications. I worry that if we open that door to like, Hey, send us updates … It already takes a long time to screen these applications. I know applicants are sometimes I’ve been complete since July 16th and I haven’t heard from you. Do you remember how much time it took for you to put that application together? It takes us a long time to read them.
So you want us to take our time and being thorough and read these thoughtfully. I worry that if we open the gates of send us updates and then people are uploading all kinds of stuff into the application, that’s going to slow down our screening process. The application already provides enough breadth and depth for us to render a decision. I don’t need that one more letter of recommendation. I don’t need that one more update that you got an A in a class or you got a poster or something. You’ve given us so much, almost your entire academic and personal life history and secondary applications and three or five letters of recommendation to render decision, we’re good. But after you’ve been invited to interview, then we allow students to send us updates throughout then the rest of the process, whether they’re waitlisted. So we will take updates after that for the university program.
What advice do you have for the applicant who is currently waitlisted at Case Western? [43:46]We’re a school that likes to hear from people. Stay in touch with us. We send periodic emails out to our waitlist candidates, just checking in and saying, Hey, if you’re still interested, do you have the opportunity to share with us that information if anything new has come up that you want to tell us about? Because when we get to the point where the end of April, beginning of May, when we’re watching our class come together, and if we dip below our class target, which we’ve done every year since I’ve been here, we always go to our alternate list, our wait list. We want to be thoughtful in who we’re contacting.
We don’t just shotgun out a bunch of acceptances and wait and see who we hear back from because these are now we’re at the point where it’s one-to-one. And so we don’t want to get then above our target so we want to be one-to-one. If somebody’s been in touch with us and they’ve expressed interest and that thing, well then … We don’t rank our alternate list, but we have … I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds on how it works. But anyway, we have some flexibility from our admissions committee into whom we can look at for our alternate list. But yeah. Staying in touch with us is great. It’s invited.
The opening up of AMCAS is a few weeks away and the beginning of the next application cycle is looming. This show will air in April. What words of wisdom do you have for applicants planning to apply in this upcoming cycle? [45:19]Yeah, this came up last week when I said it was at the University of Michigan. Somebody said, well, I plan on submitting on the first day in June when it’s available. And I said, okay, hang on a second. Just so you know, when the submit button becomes available on whatever, it’s June 2nd or something like that, nobody gets a gold star if you submit at 12:01 on June 2nd to med school. You can post it on Instagram or whatever, but nobody gets a gold star for that because here’s what happens. You can submit it on June 1st or June 2nd, and then there’s a verification process timeline. So AMCAS has got to verify the transcripts that you send to them and match it up with the grades that you put in. That could take three or four weeks. Sometimes two to four weeks. But even if you’re verified within three weeks, we’re not going to get your application until the end of June anyway. There is a date like June 29th when any verified application has been targeted to your school will be dropped into our database then. So there’s no advantage in my mind to rush to get your application submitted at 12:01 because then you can say you did it, but maybe the quality of it might’ve been rushed so that you could just do it and say that you submit it on the very first day. It’s going to sit there for three and a half, four weeks.
So my advice to people is submit when you feel like it is tip-top shape. It is sparkling. You’ve polished it, and it is the best thing you could put in front of people. Whether that’s on June 2nd or June 11th or June 15th. I think if we’re getting a little deeper into the summer, like if we’re getting into August, September-ish, that’s getting late for me because then it’s getting secondary turned around and stuff. It’s getting a little late for me, my comfortable level in the application process. But look, if you’re applying on June 21st or something, I just feel like … And if that’s when you feel ready to click submit and you’re just like chef’s kiss, then that’s when you should do it. That would be my number one tip for people.
Just before you click submit, whenever that is, go through that application with a fine tooth comb, looking for grammar mistakes, looking for misspellings because we will scrutinize these things. You could have the most amazing, I think, experiences to share with people, but if it’s poorly written and it has grammatical errors and poor punctuation and misspellings, people are going to say, this is a sloppy, is this their best work? I don’t know about you, Linda, but I want a detail oriented physician. Details matter. And so this is what you’re presenting to people. Is this your best work? And it’s sloppy? I don’t think so. That may be something to really think about. Have other people read it. Run it through all kinds of grammar checks. Read it out loud. Read it out loud. Do all the scans, checks, things that you can think of, have other people read it, looking for things. You want this to be just your best work, so you’re really putting your best self out there. So that would be my big tip.
Tell us about your podcast, All Access Med School Admissions podcast. It’s a great podcast. [49:16]Oh, thank you. I wish I had more time to do it. This admission stuff gets in the way sometimes. It’s really become a hobby, but I do get a little time to work on it, but I wish I had more time. It’s been awesome. I get to meet some amazing people. I’ve made new friends across the country and to hear them open up about their school. And then I hear from … I’ve been doing it for five years now, and now it’s crazy that I’ve had applicants who … I started listening to this 2019, and now I’m coming to med school. Listening for four years, five years. It blows me away. It freaks me out a little bit too. It’s pretty wild. You probably get the same responses too. It really is heartwarming to hear from people that they said it helped them in some way, or it brought a school on their radar that would’ve never thought about before, and they decided to apply to it, and they ended up going there.
It really has gone beyond what ever expected it would to go. The direction and the amount of people that listen to it, I’ve not gotten used to that. And so I hope to get more time this year, 2024. I’ve been in grad school and business school since last year. January of last year, so I’m graduating in May. I’ve had to put up a lot of boundaries on outside non-work things, just because always doing homework or working on a paper. So usually I do podcasty stuff on my weekends or sitting on the couch at night, and I haven’t had that time. So I’m looking forward to getting back on the podcast horse. I got a couple ideas brewing for some future things, but it’s just working in the time. But thank you for asking. It really is enjoyable.
I feel like I have a growth mindset and to teach myself and learn how to do this stuff. How to do audio editing and how to make it all work and stuff like that, and find music and make it sound cool. I like that stuff. So I’m nerdy like that.
I like the talking to people part. The technical stuff, I leave to others, but the talking to people is great. And I agree with you having applicants say that they found the podcast helpful or sometimes having schools say … I talk to admissions directors and they say, I heard from interviewees that they listened to my podcast and they found it really, really helpful. And then they’re very happy to come back on a second time, which is great as far as I’m concerned. [51:47]Yeah. I’ve gotten the same comments from my friends. They say, oh my God, we met the student and they said, they applied to me because your thing. I’m like, yeah, well, you’re welcome. It was fun.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [52:21]What comes to mind, Linda, is what’s the culture here at Case Western?
Because that’s something that I think is … I worry sometimes about writing that on a website about what the culture is because maybe it might come across as contrived or it’s like, this is just a shiny website and they’re just saying this. We’re continuing to do interviews virtually for a number of reasons. And it comes down to logistics locally for our interviewers to not have to come to campus and find parking that stuff. But also financially for applicants that are saving tons of money and not having to travel around the country. But there’s one trade off that I miss, and that is the interview day energy. And our applicants are not getting to feel like what a regular day is here. Seeing current students in their live medical students in the wild doing their thing, in their learning environments and feeling that energy and that culture. Seeing the students smiling and laughing and looks like they have good time and their friends and stuff. So we’re missing that piece.
And so when applicants ask me what’s the culture there? I am excited to tell them because they’re maybe missing that until they come for maybe an admitted student day thing. I think people are pleasantly surprised to hear it’s laid back here. They work hard. It’s med school, they’re still working hard. I think I’ve heard from prospective students coming to us, I can’t believe how happy your students are. And they seem balanced. And I think it’s a way because our curriculum is structured in a way such that it’s not eight to five every day. And in working in these small, intimate learning environments, you get to know people well. You’re going to see people on good days and not so good days when they got something going on at home or something like that. And so you become a tight-knit group, or at least you become invested in one a little bit more. I’m not going to go as far to say everybody’s best friends and they hold hands and skip and sing in the hallways, but you get to know each other pretty well. And I think that comes down to relationships and having a vested interest in one another’s success.
People here are like down earth kind, cool, interesting, polite. And the culture here really starts at our vice dean’s level. Cultures come from behaviors, and it’s the way you behave, the thing that sets our culture. And that is what you see here is what we … It’s real. It’s not phony. And so I think you can come here and feel like you belong. People are going to welcome you, and it’s genuine.
That’s wonderful. Where can listeners learn more about Case Western Reserve University College of Medicine? [55:37]You’ll find us at https://case.edu/medicine/, and you can dig deep. And you can find us on, like you said, on my podcast. We have a couple podcast episodes about our school specifically, but they can check that out too. Thank you for asking and giving me the opportunity to share a little bit about who we are and what we have to offer.
Relevant Links:
- Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
- All Access Podcast
- Accepted’s Med School Quiz
- Medical School Reapplicant Advice: 6 Tips for Success, a free guide
Related Shows:
- Tulane Medical School: How to Get In, podcast Episode 569
- Start Medical School in 2025 How to Get Accepted This Year, podcast episode 567
- All You Need to Know about the New Frist College of Medicine, podcast Episode 558
- Applying to Medical School? The Pre-Med Competencies are What You Must Show, podcast Episode 554
- Are you rushing to attend Rush Medical College?, podcast Episode 551
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Show SummaryMBA admissions veteran Kara Keenan Sweeney has joined Accepted. Formerly part of the admissions team at Wharton Lauder, INSEAD and Columbia Business School, she’s not only an Accepted consultant but she’s our guest on the podcast. Kara discusses various aspects of the MBA application process, including choosing the right schools, handling common challenges faced by international applicants, and approaching the essays and resume. She also touches on the qualities that management consulting firms look for in MBA recruits and provides advice for MBA re-applicants. Finally, she discusses the use of AI and ChatGPT in the admissions process and the importance of authenticity in application materials.
Show NotesOur guest today is no stranger to Admissions Straight Talk. She’s been on several times but wore a different hat. It gives me great pleasure to introduce Kara Keenan Sweeney, Accepted consultant. Kara previously served as the Director of Admissions, Marketing and Financial Aid at Lauder Institute at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School and Penn Law School.
Kara has an extensive background in graduate admissions, starting with her master’s in higher education administration from Columbia and including admissions positions at INSEAD, Penn State, and as I mentioned, Wharton’s Lauder Institute. Most recently, she was a senior recruiter for McKinsey & Company.
Kara, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:24]Thanks, Linda. It’s great to be with you on this side of the table.
Glad to have you back, and this time as a colleague. Let’s start with something really easy. How did you get into admissions? [1:32]Yeah, it was a little bit by happenstance, which I think is true for a lot of admissions professionals or higher education folks. I started working at Columbia University at the beginning of my career, and one of my first jobs was in student affairs at the business school, and I was working specifically with Executive MBA students as their… Directing a cohort through the two-year program, so working closely with admissions, actually.
And I started to get a little bit of exposure to admissions and help out with interviewing and things like that. And then, a few years into that role, an admissions job opened up on my team, and I was lucky enough to get it. And the rest is history. That was, I think, 17 years ago, which is crazy to think about it. It’s been that long. But yeah, I started in student affairs and navigated my way to admissions, and it’s been a great experience.
You have a wealth of experience in MBA admissions and a lot of it has been focused in the international business space. What do you think is critical for MBAs interested in international business, and specifically those programs that you’ve worked for? [2:31]It’s funny as I’m thinking through the question again. So much of business education now is international. The cohorts and the classes are so international. I think Wharton’s 30, 40%; Lauder, of course, is probably 50, 60%. So it’s just such a global pool of students. Back maybe 30, 40 years ago, it was mostly Americans at Wharton or whatever. So it’s changed a lot. Very global by nature. But for students who are looking at international business, it’s looking at it in that global context. It’s looking at it from a big vantage point.
For Americans who are maybe looking to gain some more hands-on experience, maybe going to INSEAD or London Business School, having a “study abroad” experience can be a great way to really get that on-the-ground cultural immersion, language immersion in some cases. For some international students coming from outside of the US, coming to Wharton Lauder or Columbia Business School or any of the US schools is a great way to get that US or North America focus. Getting that on-the-ground experience is really invaluable.
Working at Lauder and at INSEAD, it’s funny, the students are so similar in terms of their profile; of course, the languages and their objectives. They all look at business very much through a global lens. For example, in approaching applications and things of that nature, of course you want to keep that global outlook. Why do you want to apply to an international program? Why are those things important to you? And really, really dive deep into that and expand on why that is, and not just take it for granted that it’s something that the admissions committee or the admissions officer looking at your application would understand.
Yeah. So many great international opportunities. And, of course, Wharton and other schools have so many great exchanges. Even for students who don’t have a language like you need to have at INSEAD or Lauder, there are so many ways you can have an international experience through, really, so many of the business schools.
It’s interesting that you were talking about having a global lens. And what was going through my head as well was, “How do you manifest that global lens?” It would probably be through the motivation to apply to the particular programs that you’re going to as well as your post-MBA goals. Is that correct? [4:49]Exactly. Yeah, for sure. That’s if not the most pointed question people get on their MBA essays, it will definitely be asked in some form. What are your short-term goals? What are your long-term goals? And really that’s a way… If the international component of a program like Lauder or INSEAD or any of them are important to you, you can weave that in.
“I really want to work in China, and this is important to me for X reason,” or whatever the case may be. Having that global outlook and baking that into your application is definitely important.
What if you want to work in China, for example, but you’ve never been to China? [5:36]That’s okay too. When I would look at an application from someone, let’s say, who’d been very US-based, maybe somebody who studied a language in college but didn’t have a ton of hands-on experience, this is an opportunity to get that hands-on experience that you’re looking for. And these programs provide that.
Some of the top schools in China, for example. Somebody could spend a year or two there studying. So, it is a great way to get that experience, and you can position your application to say, “Hey, this is how I plan to do it, and it’s through this MBA program and hopefully an internship and maybe cultivating my network in China,” or wherever the case may be. And hope to do that by harnessing the program.
What are some of the best ways to handle the more common challenges faced by international applications? In other words, I’m American by citizenship and I want to study at INSEAD. Or I’m Indian and I want to study in the United States. I’m European, I want to study in the United States. What are the most common challenges that applicants face and how do you deal with them? [6:20]For some of the programs, there are such specific requirements like for INSEAD or for Lauder you have to pass those language tests, for example. So that’s something… If you’re an applicant and you’re thinking about an international program that has some sort of language component, go on the website. I remember at Lauder, we had language audio clips that you could listen to get an idea if your language is up to snuff. If it isn’t, get a tutor, and work on it. That sort of thing. In some cases, the work that you have to do is very practical to make sure your application meets the bar. In other cases…
And I think maybe as Americans, sometimes we’re guilty of looking at things through a very American/US lens. So if you’re applying to INSEAD or London Business School or whatever the case may be as an American, make sure you’re looking through that global lens, answering their questions at a global vantage point.
What’s great about INSEAD for example, and I’m sure that it’s still the case, is they have no more than 10% from a given country. Knowing that a lot of these programs will be really intentional about global diversity, and so of course, as someone from North America, you can bring a certain outlook, skills, whatever the case may be. And then of course students from another part of the world bring something else, culturally speaking.
It doesn’t mean it’s a disadvantage, but essentially you want to make sure you meet the requirements and that you understand that you’ll be a part of a really international global cohort if you go to one of the schools outside of the US. I would say on the flip side, and maybe not so much as true for Indian applicants, but something I would come across maybe from students from Asia or Latin America… Really, anywhere in the world where someone’s first language is in English. It goes to some extent without saying, but making sure your TOEFL score is strong and that your essays are well written and that they’re grammatically correct.
It sounds so basic, but it’s really important, obviously, to the admissions committee. You can have a 750 GMAT, great scores as an undergraduate student, a great job, but we need to make sure that you can communicate clearly in a well-written way in English. Believe it or not, there are papers in MBA programs. You will have to write papers. If you do a program like Lauder, you’ll have to do a research paper so those things can be important and admissions committee members will pick up on that. So make sure your language, whether it’s English or any other language you need for a program, is really up to snuff. Brush up on it.
You mentioned the importance of the essays a minute ago, and obviously they’re not just important to international applicants, they’re important to all MBA applicants. How do you advise applicants to just approach the MBA application, the essays in particular? [9:09]It’s like you have a bunch of puzzle pieces that you need to pull together into a beautiful mosaic of what makes you you. And I think you can just say, “Okay, I wrote good essays, I have a good GMAT or GRE score.” You’re checking the boxes, but you really need to pull it all together into a story that tells the story about your professional, academic, personal. You want to have that all woven in so that when someone’s reviewing your application, they’re thinking of you as a whole applicant. They’re getting that overall composition of who you are as a person, what your goals are, what your objectives are, and who makes you you.
That’s what we’re looking to bring in: unique people that will make up a diverse class across professions, personalities, interests, clubs, passions, and whatever the case may be. So really thinking about it from a broad stroke and then maybe narrowing in. When you’re looking at your essays, that’s when you can drill down a little more on your goals or something that makes you unique. Or, for the Wharton essay, what you might add to the community. That’s when you can start to get really specific.
But you still want to make sure that the person reviewing your application has a full picture of who you are overall as opposed to just writing down a list and checking off a box.
The checkbox approach to applications isn’t a terribly effective one. [10:53]Right.
In your many years of experience at different programs, what were the most common mistakes that you saw in applications? [11:09]Going back to my earlier point about something as simple as having your essays be grammatically correct, making sure your application tells a story, making sure that… For example, as you’re building your resume and other parts of your application that tell the story about what you do professionally, that it’s clear to someone who doesn’t have an area of expertise in tech or consulting or whatever the case is. So making sure that it’s something that’s clear and transparent. And I think sometimes people could get a little too in the weeds.
I like the idea of resumes really telling the story about your accomplishments as opposed to just spitting out what you do. These are your duties. Some of the things are pretty obvious. And making sure that things are really right. I remember years ago we had an applicant who, whether it was accidental or intentional, I don’t know, they had a couple of extra zeros on the end of that salary. And it just was such a large salary it didn’t totally make sense. And, of course, those things are checked when someone is admitted to a program. They go through a background check to make sure everything’s correct.
We ended up denying the person because of other aspects of their application, but I thought, “I’m sure that was an error,” but it was something that really stuck out. And it made us all raise our eyebrows, and it just didn’t add in his favor. And I think it was just one of those little mistakes that you don’t want to make. So, make sure that you’re obviously telling the truth, being factual. But catching any little errors. Make sure you have folks, whether it’s an admissions consultant or a friend, whatever, take a look at it and make sure that you’re good to go before hitting submit.
Great advice. We’ve focused on your very rich experience in terms of MBA admissions, but you’ve also worked with applicants interested in management consulting, obviously students interested in management consulting, and you were a recruiter for McKinsey. In general terms, what are the management consulting firms looking for in their MBA recruits?And as an admissions application reader and evaluator, if you saw an applicant coming in saying, “I’m interested in going into management consulting,” and you wanted to test whether that is a realistic goal, what did you expect them to bring to the table? [12:52]Yeah. Right. Maybe to answer the last one first, I think to some extent it also answers the first question. It’s really aptitude. It doesn’t necessarily mean you came from consulting or you were at another kind of consulting firm and now you want to go to one of the three top consulting firms. What was great about my experience in recruiting for consulting was that I was really impressed by the array and diversity of the profiles of people who were interviewed and hired to work as consultants.
Some of them had been literally research scientists in a lab, I know there was someone hired who had a PhD in nursing. There’s a whole amazing skill set of folks who… Just like an MBA program, I would often tell candidates, in particular candidates at Wharton, so much of what we’ll be looking at is exactly what Wharton looked in your application: who are you as a person? What makes you unique? Where can you add value? Because of course, with consulting, the client work crosses the gamut. Finance, healthcare.
There are so many different ways you can contribute, so don’t feel you need to fit some sort of prototype just as you don’t as an MBA applicant. But the great thing about consulting is you can come in and really have such a variety of backgrounds, variety of expertise. But, of course, having strong aptitude. There are certain skills that they look for; leadership, and empathy. Again, very similar to what an MBA program might look for. There are some consistencies across there.
So, if you made a great Wharton or Harvard or Stanford or whatever school applicant and you were admitted, there’s a pretty good chance you’re in a good spot to be a strong consulting applicant. And that goes again, regardless of what you were doing before your MBA. Because there are so many different ways those profiles can add value to the client work. Essentially, at the end of the day they’re going to say, “How can this person help solve the client’s needs?” With such a variety of client work, such a wide variety of MBAs or graduate students can help solve those problems.
You mentioned aptitude. What is aptitude for becoming a management consultant? You mentioned leadership. Is it communications? Problem-solving skills? [15:30]For sure. Absolutely. For example, we might have quite a few folks considering consulting who had come from a military background. They hadn’t had a lot of formal business experience, but they had incredible leadership experience. And for example, empathy; they might have a story that they tell. And on my prior role, one of the components of the interview process was having a story that you could tell about an experience where you could really dive deeply into where you could add a specific skill set like empathy.
And what’s great about the hiring process at McKinsey was they would actually pretty much lay it out, I think, just like an MBA program. What are they looking for? You go to their website, go to their careers page and really make sure you review all of that because there’s a lot of helpful information. They’ll tell you, “This is exactly what we’re looking for. This is what the interview process is like.” They’ll say, for example, we are going to ask you to talk for 15 minutes back and forth with a consultant about an opportunity you had to flex your leadership skills.
You can think about that and prepare stories and reflect on your background. And then in the other case, of course, it’s having aptitude as far as problem-solving with cases and having quantitative ability. I think brushing up on your quant skills and making sure those are good to go is really just a practical essential through the process as well.
I never thought of empathy. I’m not opposed to empathy, but I never thought of it as being a requirement. Is that part of good listening? [17:03]Yeah. It’s not a requirement, but definitely a good thing to have as you work on teams. Of course, so much of the work is team-based work with clients. Yeah. I wasn’t sure what to expect when I pivoted to campus recruiting, but I was pleasantly surprised that it was such a holistic process. Again, very similar to the MBA review process.
Let’s say MBA applicants have their grades and scores if they’re required, they know where they want to apply. How should they go about choosing schools and completing the application? What would be your recommendation? [17:31]Yeah. This is a great question, and sometimes people just say, “I want to go to one of the top five schools. It doesn’t matter which one.” I think you want to really do your research and find out, “Do I want a small program? Do I want to be part of a large class?” like at Wharton where the world is your oyster. A million different majors and things that you can choose from and a big community to be a part of. Or do you want to be part of a smaller program where you really get to know everybody and you form that relationship or that network that, for some people, is really important? Where do you want to be geographically? Some just really obvious things.
Do you want an international experience? Do you want a one-year program like INSEAD where you’re done in 10 months, you’ve got your MBA and you can hit the ground running in your next job? Or do you want a two-year, full-time experience? You have a nice break in the summer, can do an interesting internship. Really think about the experience. And at the end, which we talked so much about when I was at Wharton Lauder and just in general, is fit.
You know that when you’re applying for jobs, “Is this the cultural fit for me? Is this a place where I can see myself?” So be sure to participate in all of those online info sessions. If you can go to campus, that’s great. If you can tap into your network, talk with students and alumni, do all of that. It’s really worth it to choose your schools wisely, choose your experience and take all the time you need early on in the process versus just say, “Okay, any of these top schools I’ll be thrilled to get into.”
Of course, I’m sure you would be thrilled to get into those, but at the end of the day you want to be at a place where you know you’ll really fit in and be happy.
Do you have a recommended order for approaching the different elements of the application, like the boxes first or the essay first or the resume first? [19:22]Yeah. I think the first thing is to sign up for those info sessions, attend those introductory reviews, get a sense as to what the schools are looking for, and understand the application process. Sometimes the essays are updated in the summer, but generally you can assume they’ll be somewhat consistent with prior years. Thinking about your short and long-term goals. Part of the… The essays are really things where you can reveal who you really are.
Some of the things might be a little bit easier to knock out, like the GMAT or the GRE. So if there’s some things that you feel, “Hey, I can get this done,” or, “I have two recommenders I have an amazing relationship with, I’m going to get those taken care of.” Different things that you feel will be less time-consuming. Other folks might say, “Hey, I really need six months to prepare for the GMAT,” and that’s where they’re going to put their energy.
It really depends on the person. But doing your research ahead of time, giving yourself plenty of time, and focusing on the areas that you think you need to put in the most work I think makes the most practical sense.
What’s critical in a resume? [20:44]In a perfect world, at least I’d like to see a one-page resume. But everybody’s different. If you can’t get it into one page, of course an admissions committee or officer will review two pages. But one page is ideal. Having a nice, clean format; having something that’s, as I mentioned earlier, easily understood or digestible by someone who doesn’t have expertise in what you might be an expert in. So making sure that if you show it to a friend who’s a second grade teacher, they can understand even though you’re an investment banker or whatever. They can easily understand, “Okay, this is what you do. This is what you’ve done over the last couple of years.”
If you’ve had interesting clients or projects. And don’t forget to include what makes you, you to the extent that you can on a resume. Obviously not a ton of space, but achievements, and community interests. Were you in a leadership role as an undergraduate student? Do you have a passion for working with children? Whatever the case is. Do you love to run or hike? Because that is such a great way for someone who’s reviewing a lot of things to say, “Oh, that really stood out to me. This person hosts a cooking class every week,” or does whatever that they love.
So, to the extent that you can… Obviously, you have your academics, your professional accomplishments. Be sure to include some aspect of what makes you you. I really love to see that and those are the things I tend to remember.
What advice do you have for MBA re-applicants? [22:04]Don’t despair is the first tip. I remember every year we would have people reapply and be successful, so definitely reapply but you want to do so intentionally. Make sure that you’ve had some change in your profile, hopefully a positive change, over the last year. Maybe the quant was a weaker area of your application so you’ve retaken the GMAT or GRE. Maybe you’ve taken some quant courses online or that sort of thing to strengthen your quantitative profile.
Maybe on the other hand, you were starting out. Maybe two years out of college and you’ve gained another third year. Maybe you’ve been promoted ahead of your peers. Maybe you’re working on interesting projects or you’ve become a manager. Anything interesting that has evolved in your profile over the last year, you want to call out to the admissions committee, and that will really be the re-applicant essay in most cases. What’s changed in your profile?
So, don’t just submit the same old application. Get new recommenders, new essays. Make sure that it’s fresh and that you can show where your profile has grown over the last year and where you’ve learned, “Okay, this is where I was intentional about working on these one or two or three things that I felt I needed to submit a stronger application.” And guarantee every year there’s a really strong number of successful re-applicants. I remember quite a few when I was at Wharton Lauder, so it’s definitely something you should consider.
And I think it’s great to do it because you can reflect back, “Okay, where did I need to correct?” Work on it, do it, and then hopefully you’re successful.
Sometimes people have the qualifications, they have the skills, they have the aptitude, but they don’t portray it well. [23:43]Right.
I think sometimes that’s very hard for them to see themselves. We tend to be in love with our own writing and our own words. [23:50]Yeah, definitely. The way you tell your story is so important.
What do you think about applicant use of AI and ChatGPT? [24:07]Yeah, this is a whole new world. In the last couple of years since I stepped away briefly from admissions, it’s really evolved. It was much less of a thing just a few years back. So a couple of things; it’s out there, people are going to use it, and I think admissions committee members and officers and folks reading your applications will be aware of that. It’s no secret. And I think people are pretty smart. I think those tools can be a great resource as maybe giving an idea or giving you some template to some extent.
But at the end of the day, it’s a computer voice. It’s not an authentic human voice and it’s not you, and that’s what makes an applicant stand out and makes you special. You want it absolutely to be your voice in the essays and no AI sim can punch that out for you and really cater to you. It’s out there, it’s not going away, and admissions committees and readers will be very mindful of it.
Yeah. I don’t know, Linda, if you’ve had a different experience with it or what your thoughts are, but it’s a whole new experience for me and I’m interested to see how things play out now that I’m back into the admissions world.
I think it is a tool and like any tool, it can be abused or it can be used. If you just give ChatGPT a specific question and your resume, it will write a very poor essay in response. Don’t do it. I was talking to an MBA admissions consultant and former admissions director yesterday, and he told me that he had a client and he could tell it was a ChatGPT-generated essay. And he asked his client, “Did you write this, or is this ChatGPT?” And the guy hemmed and hawed and finally said it was ChatGPT. He says, “Well, I could tell. This looks like a computer-generated essay and there’s not much substance to it.” Using it in that way is abuse and not going to serve an applicant very well. [25:58]Right. Yeah, absolutely. It’s called artificial for a reason. It doesn’t feel authentic. I think admissions committees are going to be very wise in the use of it. Tread carefully.
When we first started hearing about artificial intelligence, Judy Gruen, who used to work for Accepted, I was talking with her one day and she said, “Why are we talking about all this artificial intelligence? We need some real intelligence down here.” [27:55]Right.
I think that’s what the application is for and that’s what the admissions committee wants to see. [28:07]Exactly.
What do you wish I would’ve asked you? We’ve covered a lot of ground here. [28:20]I would say, what do I love about admissions or what do I love about this kind of work? And I absolutely love working with the applicants and learning their stories. I talked with somebody earlier today; amazing profile, very interesting life story, great goals. And I was so energized just chatting with him and learning about his objectives and how we could perhaps help him. That’s the best thing, is seeing the candidate experience.
Seeing them go from just the investigative stage, research phase of considering an MBA program. Working with them, hopefully getting admission, deciding where they’re a best fit. It’s just great to be part of someone’s journey. And that is life changing in so many ways. My former colleague at Lauder had a board in her room with all the couples that met each other in the program. And marriages are made, babies are born, all kinds of things. And if not a relationship, obviously you have your degree, which is an accomplishment in and of itself.
Hopefully, you will reach your professional and academic goals. But you will also have an amazing experience for the year or two that you’re in the program; new friends, many of whom are from around the world, just a great experience. Playing even just a small part in that is definitely the best part, for sure.
You joined Accepted fairly recently, but wait until you start hearing from clients that they’re admitted. It’s the biggest reward when you’re on this side of the desk. [29:41]Yeah.
Relevant Links:
- Kara Keenan Sweeney, Consultant Profile and Contact Information
- Mapping Your MBA Application Quiz
- MBA Application Rejection Review and Strategy
Relevant shows:
- How to Get Into HEC Paris, podcast Episode 565
- NYU Abu Dhabi: Top Ranked MBA Program in the Middle East, podcast Episode 549
- How to Get an MBA at Columbia Business School, podcast Episode 528
- Get Into INSEAD, the Business School for the World, podcast Episode 520
- Applying to Wharton Lauder? Do Your Research!, podcast Episode 465
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Show SummaryWould you like to apply to Tulane University School of Medicine, but are you concerned about the intense competition for seats? Its Director of Admissions, Dr. Mike Woodson, is our guest today, and he’ll tell you what it takes to get in. Dr. Woodson discusses the unique aspects of Tulane’s medical program, including its focus on healing communities and its integration of nursing students into the curriculum. He emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and authenticity in the application process and advises applicants to stop comparing themselves to others.
Show NotesWelcome to the 569th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to actually improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
Our special guest today is Dr. Mike Woodson, Director of Admissions at Tulane University’s School of Medicine. Mike earned his bachelor’s at Elon University and an MS in Sport Management from Virginia Commonwealth, and his PhD in Higher Education and Higher Education Administration in 2022 from Liberty University. After working for several years in high school athletics, Dr. Woodson moved into the admissions world at Randolph-Macon College. He then was Assistant Director of Admission at the University of Houston and came to Tulane Medical in 2017 as Assistant Director of Admissions. In 2019, he became the Director of Admissions.
Dr. Woodson, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:54]Linda, it’s great to be back with you. I’ve heard so many great things on the interview trail about your program and how it’s helped pre-meds along the way. I’ve gotten some great reviews about our episode before, so can’t wait to chat with you again.
Thank you for the wonderful feedback. To start, can you give us an overview of Tulane Medical’s program focusing on its more distinctive aspects and elements? [2:11]Sure, Tulane School of Medicine is right in the heart of downtown New Orleans, Louisiana in the south. Our focus is mainly on really helping our community here in New Orleans. Now we have students that come from all over. The mission of our school is healing communities, and that’s what everything about our school is focused on, whether it’s curriculum, whether it’s extracurricular activities, whether it’s research, it’s all focused on healing communities and we’re trying to do that here in the New Orleans community.
It’s interesting that you say you’re focused on healing communities, not individuals. Normally you think about doctors treating individuals, but this is a little bit different focus. [2:55]When we say healing communities, yes, individuals are part of the community, but as a whole, our goal is to really help the community because communities help themselves. It can’t be this big institution that’s talking down to the community, talking to individuals, lecturing communities, lecturing individuals about what they need to do. It has to be a partnership, and so it helps that Tulane is really partnering with the community in the community. Our students are living in the community. Our doctors and faculty are living in the community, so they have a vested interest in this. And so yes, individuals are part of the community, but overall we’re really trying to focus on healing communities.
What’s new at Tulane since we last spoke? It’s almost exactly two years ago. [3:49]I would say there are a couple of new things that we have going on. It doesn’t really pertain per se to the medical school, but it will affect us. In the fall we have a new nursing program that started, and the good thing about that is, once it goes again with our mission of healing communities, but also there’s going to be a lot of curriculum and activities interaction with our med students. So they’re not just learning in a silo, they’re learning yes about the clinical aspects of medicine, the academic, the science stuff about medicine, but they’re also learning how to work together and that’s the main thing, because you hear so many times, especially from people who’ve been or seasoned veterans in the medical force, how sometimes maybe this wall put up between physicians and nurses, and so let’s just try to break that wall down and have them work together, collaborate. If you’re collaborating together in the learning phase, hopefully, they’ll have that collaboration once they get out in the workforce.
So there’ll be nurses and doctors together, maybe PAs and other members of the healthcare team? [4:58]Yes, that is correct. So when we’re doing different exercises, we have our preclinical phase where the early classroom stuff, but within that preclinical side, we do have, we call foundations of medicine. That’s kind of our how to be a doctor kind of classes and where they learn different skills and tests, and those lessons we can see they’re going to be done with our nursing students. Of course, they’re going to learn the exact same thing, patient care and so forth. And so they’re going to be learning stuff together and learning collaboration because in a safer environment, in a learning environment, it’s better to learn those skills now than when you get on the wards your third year. And then you’re dealing with nurses, seasoned nurses. And we just want to make sure everyone not only knows their roles, but also knows how their roles interact together. And so making sure we get that early lesson, early learning and starting first year.
Part of that early learning will probably take place in the simulation center at Tulane. Is that brand new or has it just been developed more in the past few years? [6:02]The sim center has been around for several years now, and it focuses not only just medical school students and their education, but once again, once again, I go back to that healing communities. We have EMS training in there. We have nurses who train in there. Also, we have our residents who train in there. So a lot of different community groups, first responders that are training in our sim center. And so that’s where we envision most of that taking place in that sim center. It’s a place where they’re going to learn their clinical skills in a safe environment because we want to give our students confidence. You don’t want them doing their first test on a live person or doing it on each other. That’s probably even worse. So we want to do it in a safe environment.
We have different rooms in that sim center. We have a simulation operating room, a delivery room, emergency medicine room, and different patient triage areas where they can learn. And it looks just like a hospital. You walk into the tile floors, to the white walls and all that, the bright, the fluorescent lights and all that stuff. It looks just like a hospital. So when you go in there, you get the true feel of being in that environment. So once again, when you’re in the clinics or you’re in the wards, it’s not a scary thing the first time you step in your third year. You’ve had two years of experience of doing things in a testing center where you’ve practiced your skills and you’re able to go into those third years confidently. And that’s also, like I said, we’re going to integrate the nursing program as well, doing things together in the sim center.
Could you touch on TRuMEd, the Tulane Rural Medical Education Program? [7:56]Yes. It’s going to sound like a broken record, but once again, adds to the different communities.
Part of that is because if you go outside 30 minutes, 40 minutes outside of New Orleans, you’re in a rural setting. I know people think of New Orleans, this is big. People think of Bourbon Street. We try not to say, “Hey, that’s tourists, that’s not the city.” But once you leave the city, Louisiana is very much a rural state, and we’re trying to address the shortages of physicians in those rural communities, especially down here in Louisiana, in the deep south. And so part of our program is to have these students do a curriculum that’s focused on rural medicine. Then some of their third-year clerkship rotations will be out in those communities. Yes, it’s under family medicine, but within family medicine in a rural setting, you’d be doing a lot of stuff. You might do some surgical procedures, you might be doing some OBGYN, you’re going to be doing some family medicine, you’re going to be doing some patient literacy and so forth.
So you can be doing all that stuff in that setting because that might be the only doctor in that community. And so they have to learn a lot. They have to do a lot. And so those students that decide to follow that path are really focused on learning about that particular population segment. And most of our students that are really focused on that come from those communities. I see on their essays all the time that they had to travel an hour to see a physician or they want to actually go back to the community and be that doctor in that community and so forth. And so it’s good to get trained in that specific care because people think medicine is medicine, whereas depending on where you’re at, medicine is not just medicine. It’s a lot of nuances and that’s what we try to open their eyes to.
I would assume the rural medicine doctor or somebody specializing in rural medicine has to be more of a generalist. They have to specialize in being a generalist. [9:57]That is so correct. Our students have done a lot of the rotations there. They’ve come back and said, “Oh my gosh, the stuff I’ve done.” Compared to their peers that maybe just done it in hospitals here, they’re like, “What do you mean you had to assist with the surgery? I thought you were in family medicine. Well, what are you talking about? You assisted with the birth of a child. I thought you were doing this.”
They have to be a jack of all trades.
I’m in Los Angeles. My husband once had something on his hand. He went to the doctor, and the doctor said, “Well, I have a fellowship.” My husband said, “It’s on my right hand.” And he says, “Well, I have a fellowship in my right hand.” And [my husband] joked and said, “What about the left hand?” He says, “I have a fellowship in that too.” But I mean, that kind of specialization, you can only really have in a large urban area. [10:35]Yes, definitely. And I guarantee there may not be a specialization or a special certificate about it, but I guarantee the people in rural medicine can do a little bit of everything.
Let’s turn to the application and a little bit more about admissions. Tulane’s secondary from the website appears to be automatically sent. What are you trying to glean from the secondary that you don’t get from the primary? You have a pretty thorough secondary, looking at the questions. [11:37]Well, we try to keep it shorter, I would say, but try to extract information out that really like, why us? And we also want to make the applicants think a little bit more about themselves. I’m all about self-reflection questions. I want people to really dive into why they want to go down this path, why they want us on this journey that they’re on. And when I talk to these special groups all the time, the first thing I say is self-reflection. Please do that deep dive and self-reflection. After you’ve done all your homework on different websites and doing your research and that kind of stuff, come back and still do self-reflection now that you learn all this other information. And so that’s what we’re trying to get on that secondary, get them to think about themselves. Not to have too many tricky questions per se, but just look at the why medicine, why physician, why Tulane, all that kind of wrapped in essentially three questions, pretty much. It’s a really focused-
The primary addresses the why medicine. That’s certainly part of what the primary application does. The secondary doesn’t move away from that. But I think you already got that information. [12:55]Well, it gives them a chance to say, why medicine here? Because when you’re doing your primary, of course you want to keep it as general as possible, but now’s the time for them to, if they really want whatever school they’re applying to, if they really want us to really focus on the why medicine here and not just at Tulane University School of Medicine, but why New Orleans? Because the community’s part of us, we’re part of the community. Why us? It is a package deal. You can’t separate one or the other. So that’s what we’re kind of gleaning, I’m trying to glean from our secondaries, but also making sure they really did a deep dive into themselves as well.
It’s pretty obvious that you don’t want somebody to just look at rankings or throw darts at a dart board and pick medical schools, they have to know something about New Orleans. The first part of question number two is what disparities in health do you believe are pertinent to the New Orleans patient population? How would you attempt to address them as a medical student at Tulane? You may support your answer by using past involvement, working in a similar patient population, et cetera. So it goes on a little bit more. [13:54]Yes.
And you give them a whopping 150 words to do it, but it would require some thought on their part, research and thought. [14:21]Once again, that’s what we want. We don’t want them to be able to copy and paste and just take out the name of another school and put it into our secondary. Every secondary is going to have a why their school, but this takes it a little further and also gives them a chance to maybe dive into a little bit of the things they’ve done and how it compares to what they could be doing while they’re here in the city.
Do you plan any changes for the upcoming application cycle in terms of your secondary? [15:03]It’s funny when I start off saying you don’t want any got you moments, but I kind of want to tweak it a little bit just because I don’t want people, because I know our questions are out there on the web and everything, and I don’t like it when people pre-do their questions. They have months and months and months. I really want them to think about it on the spot because I feel like the answers are within yourself pretty much. And so we want people to think. So I don’t foresee us changing it too much. There might be an interview prompt, a video interview prompt. We’re in discussions with that. We don’t know yet how we’re going to do that or if we’re going to implement that this cycle. But once again, it will take away from the copy and pasting because you can’t copy and paste a video. But then also it might shed a little bit of a light on how they might do in a video, since we’re going to be doing video virtual interviews. So it helps us with that aspect as well.
Are you going to keep the COVID question? [16:11]We’re going to probably keep that. I think we still have maybe one or two years for that just because people, if they’re reapplicants, they’ve gone through the COVID, the height of COVID, I should say has gone away, but the height of COVID and it still affects people’s application, whether I know the overall answer is sometimes they’re like, “Oh, I couldn’t get the shadowing opportunity. I couldn’t get this research opportunity.” But also it affects people like, “It affected my family because a family member got sick or a family member died.” Family dynamics have changed. Maybe they had to be the breadwinner and they couldn’t do certain things that they wanted to do, or it intensified their passion for medicine because it affected their family in a certain way. And so I think it does still have value, that question still does that value.
What makes an application jump off the page for you in a positive way? [17:03]There are plenty of ways to make it negative. I always talk to groups of people and that’s usually the number one question and thousands, thousands of applications, how do I stand out? And I always tell people, honestly, it’s not that hard. And they look at me kind of sideways and are like, “What are you talking about? It’s hard.” And I tell people, “Just be yourself.” So many times people go to the internet or they go to friends and they’re like, “Oh, everyone’s doing this, so I’m going to do this.” And I was like, “That’s one way not to stand out if you sound like everyone else.” And so it’s only one of you. So just be yourself this entire process.
Don’t try to cater your application based on what you think school is going to hear because most of the time, you’re going to get it wrong. Just be yourself. The schools and not just our medical school, I know plenty of people in the field, they just want to know about the person as an individual. Are they genuine? Are they honest? What are their insights? Why do they do things?
The people try to check off boxes. We got it. But what led you down this path of picking a particular activity and what did you get out of it? And I tell people all the time, if you do that, you will tell us more about yourself than a standard, “I like medicine because…” And list all the activities you’ve done.
I want to help people. [18:24]I want to help people, and I always when I interview people and it’s like, “I want to help people.” I’m like, “Oh, well, you could be a banker and give out low-interest loans.”
My standard answer to that is, “Why aren’t you a plumber?” [18:34]Yeah, that is true.
Just be yourself in the entire process because only you have experienced something the way you’ve experienced it. So even if everyone shadows, everyone researches, whatever the case may be, your experience of that shadowing is going to be different. Your motivations for pursuing that shadowing is going to be different than someone else. Your lessons learned from that shadowing is going to be different than everyone else. And once you start doing that, we get a good picture of who you are as a person instead of a list of accomplishments. And then those are the ones who can master that or are comfortable with that because the internet sometimes will tell you contrary, don’t do that. If they do that, they start to stand out and we get a good idea, we can close our eyes and almost picture the person possibly being in front of us in an interview and possibly be a med student here.
That’s a great answer. And if you combine that response with your comment about self-reflection, I think you just unlock the key there to great essays. [19:41]Sometimes for these science people, it’s hard to turn down the science brain and sometimes tell them, turn up the humanistic side a little bit.
You encourage people to take the CASPer but you do not require it. What role does it play when applicants have taken it and you have those results? Is not taking it a negative? [20:00]I will say that full disclosure, we know a lot of schools require it, so we know we’re going to get it anyway. So as a school, we just don’t like putting barriers in front of applicants because now we’re just adding more tests, we’re adding extra costs, we’re adding extra time and resources. And so we encourage it. We don’t require it. And right now we’re still in the learning phase for CASPer and Duet as far as how we’re going to use it. I mean, I am good friends with the Casper people. I talk to them routinely and they’ll be the first ones to tell you that it really only correlates to possibly the third and fourth years of medical school. And so we’ve been only using it for five or six years or so. But if it’s focused on the backend, we’ve only had about three classes that have gone where the correlation might play out.
I hear what you’re saying. [21:22]We’re still looking to see how we’re going to use it. There’s still an educational curve with our committee to figure out, because some people on the committee, they’ve been doing it so long, sometimes we’re still trying to figure out the new MCAT score, so we’re educating the committee on that, how it’s going to be used, what’s it about, and so forth. So we’re still in those planning phases. Now, I could see maybe two or three cycles from now, maybe us requiring it, but for now, we’re still keeping it. We encourage it, but it’s not required and it is not going to hinder someone’s applications based on whatever they get.
You’re requiring it almost as much now for your own education as to evaluate applicants, it sounds like. [22:02]Correct, yes.
You’ve emphasized authenticity, the importance of self-reflection and authenticity in your essays. What do you think of applicants using ChatGPT or something similar? [22:11]That’s the bane of my existence. It’s because I think applicants don’t realize that we can tell when a computer writes something versus something’s authentic. Now maybe I know it’s getting better, and I know certain schools are implementing anti-AI software and so forth, but for the most part we can tell when it’s almost too perfect. And then when it doesn’t really answer the question or it gets into a lot of things that are so specific, especially about New Orleans, why would you even think to put that in your application? And so you can kind of see what it is. But then it also comes very apparent that you AI-ed application when you come in the interview and you don’t sound anything like your application.
Just the different words you’ve used, the tone, what things excite you on paper versus when you get in front of the interviewer and you’re talking about stuff and you seem bored to the stuff that excites you on your paper, but you talk about something totally different that excites you. It really comes apparent that someone else or a computer heavily influenced your application. And so I know people do it. I know our med students tell us all the time, like, “Oh, it’s pretty easy to do it this way, this way, this way.” And in my head I’m talking to them like, “Oh wow, that’s great.” But in the back of my mind, I’m like getting intel on it.
I wish they wouldn’t do it. And I wish they really would do that self-reflection on themselves to figure out this is the right place for them. Is this the right profession for them? So that they don’t think I’m good at science. I should be a doctor. Everyone told me I should be a doctor. And then when you get these self-reflection questions, I don’t know, let me just have a computer write it for you. That doesn’t seem genuine and that doesn’t seem like it’s going to play out well when you actually get a live person doing your interview in front of you.
What makes for a great interview? [24:44]I say this at the beginning of every single interview day we have, I say we don’t want robots and be yourself. I know these are super smart people and I know they’ve probably overthought this process a lot. So they’ve practiced and practiced and practiced, which is perfectly fine. And it’s funny because, I start off with, so when someone tells you hello, that’s not the time to jump into your elevator speech. And you see some people’s face, like the eyes light up and that kind of stuff. Because like, oh, I was planning on doing that. So it’s very interesting.
You don’t want to be a robot. Be yourself. Be interesting, because the entire time, we just want to get to know the individual. We don’t have any preset questions that we tell our interviewers to ask. Our students are a part of the interview process just as much as faculty, and we just want to get genuine honest answers, not the canned answers. It’s very easy when you’re doing Zoom interviews to have your answers to some questions, some topics you think about up on the screen.
Please don’t do that because it’s so easy to tell when people are reading questions. And that will certainly be a negative interview. And I’ve read comments from some of our interviewers that said, they read their entire answers. You can see their eyes moving and so forth. So please go over some stuff about the school, but just be yourself. There’s not going to be questions that you’re going to need an encyclopedia, calculator or whatever, look up anything. They’re mainly questions about maybe your experiences, your thoughts, and people are just being curious usually and just be yourself.
That sounds like a good piece of advice. Can you review Tulane medical’s policy regarding updates at different phases in the application process, before interview, after interview, and if wait-listed? [26:40]We encourage it through the entire process. We know that when you submit your application in May and June, July, you could be doing stuff when it’s finally get to review part in September, October, November, not a problem. So update it beforehand. Now you can update it after you get an interview, update it after your decision, whether it’s a wait list and so forth. We honestly have people update their interviews because once people are admitted, they’re automatically considered for scholarships. So there’s no scholarship application. And so that’s why we’re like, “Hey, update it even after you’re admitted it, because all that’s going to be taken into consideration during the scholarship review process as well.” So it’s very easy to do and we’re encouraged to do it all the time. Now, we also tell people, don’t be updating just so you can have an update. We don’t need to know that you helped your neighbor across the street and you got an hour of community service for that. We don’t need that. But if it’s anything substantial, please let us know.
How do you view shadowing? I sometimes hear people say shadowing is worthless Other people say you need to have 100 hours of shadowing to apply. For Tulane Medical, what’s your advice? [27:54]Oh, shadowing, shadowing, shadowing.
First of all, our committee and I understand that shadowing is sometimes a privileged activity. Sometimes people are like, “Oh, my aunt, she was a doctor, so I went in her office and shadowed her.” Somehow a family connection got a connection to someone, so they allowed me to shadow. Whereas some people who don’t know anyone as a physician, wouldn’t even know how to even go about that besides maybe just asking their own pediatrician or their doctor, “Hey, can I follow you around?” So I know it’s a privileged activity that not everyone has an opportunity for, so I’m not going to penalize anyone who doesn’t have shadowing. And I know shadowing takes on different aspects depending on where you’re doing it and who you’re doing it with. Is it good to get exposure into clinical medicine? Of course, but I and a lot of people here that reviews applications would rather see more hands-on clinical exposure.
So whether that’s, and I would say the same thing with scribing too, but scribing, depending on where you’re scribing, you might be the medical assistant essentially. So you got to really describe that in your application. But we really much rather see some type of clinical exposure that is hands-on. Whether it’s EMS, whether a lot of people are now being certified nurses aides or nursing assistants, medical assistants, volunteering in certain clinical settings. So one, you’re not only just seeing what the physician does, but you’re also getting other aspects of the medical field, the interactions, the collaborations that go on between different medical personnel. And so not to say if you don’t have that, it’s going to be a detriment to your application, but shadow is not the end all be all. I’ll just leave it like that.
What about virtual shadowing? Does that have any value? [30:04]Virtual shadowing can be an asset. It can give you a glimpse of medicine, especially since a lot of healthcare now is going to virtual visits, set an appointment over the phone. I’ve even done it a couple times. I thought it was a little weird at first, but I got used to it. So it can have some value for it. But once again, not the end all be all
Maybe it’s a place to start exploring clinical medicine, but a poor place to end it. [30:44]Correct. If that’s your only exposure to medicine, it’ll be hard for you to understand all other aspects of medicine.
And it is passive, as we both have said. [30:56]Very, very much so.
We’re getting calls from many applicants who are, at this point, concluding that they are rejected to cycle. They’re thinking about a reapplication. How would you recommend they approach the reapplication process? [31:01]One, please don’t call or email. I always tell people that. It’s not because we’re a big, mean medical school. It’s because if you think about it, we get 15,000 applications. We can’t possibly give advice to 14,500 of them or whatever the case may be. But for the most part, it goes back to that self-reflection. Why did you pick our school? What was the rationale behind that? And does your wants and needs out of a medical school education actually matches up what we can offer you in a medical school education? If you’re just kind of throwing a dart board and like, oh, because the average number of schools people are applying to know is 20. I think that’s ridiculous. I mean, those are all probably 20 different schools, so it can’t possibly match up your needs to that particular school. And so do that self-reflection and then be brutally honest with yourself. So many times, and I see it when people email and they still email and call our school, and I glance to see is there anything I could tell them?
And I just pull up their application. Right off the bat, I’m like, “Well, one, why’d you apply at deadline?” That’s a big no-no. Every medical school will tell you, don’t apply. Don’t submit your application, whatever the deadline is at the deadline, that doesn’t show any interest in us. Second, I hate to put everything on stats, but if you have a significantly lower GPA, MCAT than just our average, then that should be a clue as well as what you could have done or improved on. Especially if you’ve struggled with your science GPA, yet have maybe done a post-bac program or got a master’s program or just taken any other additional classes to prove that you can handle upper level sciences.
That could be a clue as well, and sometimes I don’t think they do that. I think they want people to tell them what to do, and if they do that, they’re going to medical school and there are no guarantees in medical school. I don’t care if you have a 525 and a 4.0, that’s still not a guarantee. So just overall reflecting on what you want to get out of this process, what do you want to get out your education, and then being honest with yourself as far as looking at the application and saying like, oh, well, this is probably the reason why.
So first would be evaluating what went wrong, essentially. And then step two would be fixing it. [33:43]Trying to do whatever you can to fix it. Most of the time people rush the process as well. It might take two cycles to go through or maybe sitting out a cycle to get whatever you need fixed on your application, whether it’s just being more exposure to medicine, clinical experiences, whether it’s retaking classes or doing a master’s or doing a post-bac program, or taking the time to really study the MCAT and do well on the MCAT instead of just, “Oh, I did bad. Let me sign up for the next month to do it.” That’s usually a recipe for disaster.
How do you view multiple MCAT scores since we’re on the topic? [34:27]Well, for us, we don’t care. We just take the highest score. We don’t super score or anything. We don’t look at sub-scores. We’re just looking at the highest score. And I know that’s different from other schools, but for us, we just look at the highest score.
It’s March 19th as we’re recording this, and we are roughly two and a half months away from the opening of MCAT for the 2024-2025 cycle. What should applicants be doing now in order to get that application in June, which is ideally when they should be doing it? [34:47]Correct. Have that deadline on your date, whether it’s June 1st. I mean, you don’t have to be, I hate to pick on the California people, but you don’t have to be like the most of the California people at 12:01 right after midnight, hit submit on it. Please get a good night’s sleep, you can do it the next day. But for the most part, right now you should be focusing on your strategy on what schools do I really want to apply to? I mean, you’re going to have most of your primary application done, that’s the same regardless. But really doing that once again and figuring out what schools I want to apply to, where can I see myself at and be once again, really honest with yourself.
I mean, to the point where I know people want to get in medical school, but if cold weather makes you miserable, why are you applying to only schools that are in cold weather. Medical school is far enough already. You should know yourself enough to know that, hey, maybe I don’t thrive in an environment that is a big city, or I need to be somewhat close to a family setting and so forth. And those are things that may seem superficial at first, but if it’s going to help you succeed in medical school, it’s important. And your choice is where to apply. So think about those things. Don’t try to jam in 50 different activities right now.
People reading applications are going to see through that. Now, compared to when you’re in college, and I used to be an undergrad admissions person and in their junior year of high school, you see they join every single club and organization because it looks great on a college application. People do that for medical school as well. And so this is not the time to try to jam in all that stuff. Really focus on the things you’re passionate about and continue to do in the things that you’re passionate about. Quantity is not always the greatest thing. Quality is better.
Looking at the process overall, whether we’re talking about a first-time applicant or a reapplicant, what do you think is the biggest challenge they’re facing? What causes the most problems or digs the deepest rabbit holes for applicants? [37:09]I’m going to get a little philosophical right now, and I’m going to say this because I was interviewing with someone a couple of weeks ago and they mentioned this and I wrote this quote down, and I think it’s very important. “The thief of joy is comparison.”
Oh, that is good! [37:46]So many times when people, whether they’re first-time applicants or reapplicants, they spend most of their time comparing themselves to others, and they’re not valuing the things that they can bring to the table. They’re just realizing like, oh, I don’t have this because someone else did this.
And I was at the AAMC National Conference in November in Seattle, and I was giving this talk to a bunch of pre-med students, and I quietly said, all of y’all lie. You’re lying to people on the internet. You’re lying to people. Oh, I’ve done this research or done that. You’re over exaggerating things. You’re lying. And all that is making the people who are trying to compare themselves to those people freak out so much because they don’t have that experience. They don’t have thousands of hours of research, a thousand hours of clinical experience.
And so just stop comparing yourself to others. Be happy about the things that you’ve done. Once again, brutally honest, did you do the things you did because you genuinely enjoy them, you genuinely liked them and genuinely curious about them, or you’re just kind of following the crowd, and then you’re not standing out. So figure out what brings you joy and stop comparing yourself to others. And like I said, it gets a little philosophical, but I wish people would realize that throughout this entire process.
That’s a fantastic piece of advice, and getting back to your point earlier about self-reflection, the time that you’re spending comparing yourself to Joe and Sally is not time you’re spending figuring out what’s important to you. [39:13]Correct. It boggles my mind that you waste that energy trying to chase others’ accomplishments and not worry about the things that fulfill you and your own accomplishments and looking out and seeing like, all right, I’ve done this. Even if it’s non-science related, non-medicine related, it can still give you skills and attributes that will make you a successful physician. Our Dr. Chakraborti here, he’s our Dean of Education here, and he says it best, sometimes just being the best bartender, waitress, retail sales person, just focusing on that and focusing what you get out of that is transferable skills. And so many times that people are like, “Oh, well, I didn’t do that, so I can’t apply to medical school, or I’m not going to put that in medical school application.” When he will tell you, he’s an internal medicine doctor, his only job is to talk to strangers and get them to talk to him and trust them about certain things. You learn that from doing those other occupations, other activities, so focus on the things that you do well in this entire process and stop comparing ourselves to others.
I sometimes post on the Student Doctor Network forum, and there was a post about a year ago, and it really bothered me. It really bothered me because the fellow posting was basically saying that he had been rejected and he knew he was a better applicant than some other people who got accepted, and it’s very unfair, and he thinks he’s going to go for a PhD instead. I actually responded. I said, “If you want to go for a PhD, great, fine, but it’s not going to be an easier process than medical school. It’s demanding in its own way, but you’ve got to stop comparing yourself. You don’t know what those people put on their application. You have no idea what they wrote. You have no idea what are the priorities of the schools.” He might have some idea that they applied to as opposed to what you applied to, even if it was the same school, he’s still making those priorities, but that’s a different problem. But the idea that he was so convinced that he is better. The opposite problem actually of what you were describing, you’re describing people who basically have imposter syndrome because they’re comparing themselves to others. This guy was convinced that the others were the imposters. But again, the quote you started with, “Comparison is the thief of joy,” is 100% right. Take pride in what you’ve done. Focus on that and focus on fit with the schools. [40:44]You said it perfectly.
People reach out about why they didn’t get in, and they might have friends there that got in, and the first thing they say is, “Well, my MCAT score is better than their MCAT score. How come they got in and I didn’t get in?” And I try to let them know, if you only focusing on the stats, then you’re missing out on the entire thing that what we’re looking for in general, but overall, what medicine’s about and a medical education’s about. And honestly, granted, there’s some schools out there that just look at stats. That’s fine, everyone has their own mission. But for the most part, schools want to see human beings. They want doctors who can relate to patients, whatever patient population they plan to serve, and just having a high MCAT score is not going to do it. I’ve never been to a doctor’s office and says, “Excuse me, Doctor, what’s your MCAT score? What was your MCAT score?” I’ve never said that.
Great point. We’ve had applicants come to us, and sometimes they became clients. “I got rejected despite my high GPA, despite my high MCAT. What did I do wrong? What went wrong? I wrote good essays.” Well, no, they really weren’t quite as good as you thought. [43:31]If they lead with those two statements, the rest of the application probably sounds like those first two statements.
Exactly. Maybe a little arrogant. [43:59]You said it, not me.
That’s right. And considering your emphasis on teamwork throughout our conversation, arrogance just will kill it. [44:05]It will. And especially at a school like ours where we value collaboration. We don’t want this cutthroat atmosphere with our students. We value community. We don’t want people talking down to patients, talking to patients. Just because you know more about medicine than the patient, it’s still a partnership in their health, and you got to meet them where they’re at. And so getting people to realize that and understand that and arrogance is not going to get you that.
Maybe pride in what you’ve done, but without the arrogance is kind of the balance that will get you where you need to go. What would you have liked me to ask you? [44:43]We covered a lot today.
I will say that if people want to know more, I’ll just go off with the number three question people ask me during the interview is like, oh, when I say, “What question do you have of me?” “What is it like living in New Orleans?” Because they have this perception of what they see on Mardi Gras day, which one? Mardi Gras as a whole weeks long festival. It’s not just one, it’s not just Fat Tuesday. It’s a weeks long festival and it’s more family, fun, entertainment, t’s great. But living in New Orleans is a city like no other.
I’ve lived in a couple different cities throughout my life, and it’s unique because most cities, they have their identity, and if a newcomer comes in, they might be somewhat welcoming, but if you don’t know about this little thing, that little thing, you’re not going to have too many people that maybe reach out to try to explain it to you. But here in New Orleans, everyone’s trying to get you to be a part of them, whether it’s different traditions, whether it’s culture, whether it’s different foods. It’s such a welcoming city. It’s a laid back city. It’s funny how a lot of our students that may come from Caribbean countries were like, oh my gosh, this reminds me of home, so laid back. Sometimes it’s a little too laid back for most people, that’s fine. We still like it.And so that environment really does seep in our school, which lends to the non-competitive environment here with really overly trying to reach out and make sure people succeed.
It’s not weeding out. It’s not like, oh, well, if you didn’t get this first exam, you’re not going to be a good doctor. No. It’s really trying to reach out and help people, and then also with that being with the city being in the school, the school being in the city, really focusing on that, I guess the new term might be out there is that value-based care that we’re trying to instill into our students. And that value-based care is really helping out and looking for our community once again, healing communities, and so living in New Orleans, it’s great. I mean, today it’s cold. I’m using quotation marks cold because it’s only supposed to be in the 60s. It’s cold here, but it’s a fun city. It has everything big cities have to offer, but in a smaller version, and everyone is just very welcoming here in the city. So I enjoy living in the city. Our students love being in the city, and they’ve embraced the city as well.
Where can listeners learn more about Tulane University School of Medicine? [47:31]Perfect. You can go to our website, try to make it easier. That’s medicine.tulane.edu. They can email me anytime. I’d rather talk to people than stare at spreadsheets and applications all the time, so they can email me at mwoodson@tulane.edu, and we try to make our website very interactive, as interactive as it can be, so there are lots of videos with students. Please visit our Student Life page because that will kind of give you a good picture of what it’s like to be a student here at Tulane.
Relevant Links:
- Tulane University School of Medicine
- Accepted’s Med School Acceptance Calculator
- The Casper Exam: A Situational Judgment Test
Related Shows:
- Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know, podcast Episode 513
- Tulane School of Medicine: How to Get In, podcast Episode 469
- Frist College of Medicine, podcast Episode 558
- Pre-Med Competencies for Med School, podcast Episode 554
- Are you rushing to attend Rush Medical College?, podcast Episode 551
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Show SummaryHere at Accepted, we’re getting more and more inquiries from applicants interested in PhD programs in the humanities. We have a panel of experts today on the show to discuss PhD admissions in the humanities. You’ll hear from Vanessa Febo, Dr. Mary Mahoney, and Dr. Christie St-John as they discuss what PhD programs in the humanities look for in applicants, including academic achievements, research interests, and fit with the program and faculty. They also discuss the importance of having a clear goal and being open to different career paths after completing the PhD. The panelists emphasize the importance of the statement of purpose, writing sample, and letters of recommendation in the application process. They also provide advice on researching programs, selecting recommenders, and starting the application process early.
Show NotesWelcome to the 568th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for tuning in. The challenge at the heart of PhD admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target programs, and are a standout in the applicant field. Accepted’s free download, Fitting in and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance. You can download this free guide at Accepted.com/FISO.
We’ve done this once before, and I thought it worked great, so we’re going to do it again. For today’s episode we have a panel. Our panelists are Vanessa Febo, Dr. Mary Mahoney, and Dr. Christie St-John.
Vanessa Febo is an Accepted consultant, who has 10 plus years of experience teaching writing at UCLA, where she has also guided applicants to Acceptance’s scholarships and grants, including the Fulbright, Stanford’s Knight Hennessy, and Ford Foundation Fellowships through UCLA’s Center for Scholarship and Scholar Enrichment. She is completing her Ph.D. this summer, so almost congratulations, Vanessa, and welcome.
Dr. Mary Mahoney is an Accepted consultant and tenured English professor, director of a medical humanities program at a liberal arts college in New York, and writing instructor. Dr. Mahoney earned her PhD in literature and writing.
Dr. Christie St-John is an Accepted consultant and former admissions director at Dartmouth and Vanderbilt. She earned her PhD in French and Italian.
You’re all repeat guests on Admissions Straight Talk. Welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk. It’s a pleasure to have you, and I’m really excited about this new format that we’re experimenting with. We won’t do it all the time, but I’ve enjoyed it when we’ve done it in the past.
Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:20][MM] Thank you.
I realize that the topic of PhD admissions in the humanities is a very broad topic. What will most PhD programs in the humanities want to see in applicants both academically and experientially? [2:28][CS] Well, one of the key things is that you have an idea of what you want to do this program for, that you have a basic idea of the research you’d like to do. Academically, of course, you do have to have strong grades and good test scores. I think one of the key things for me when I was applying was I was really worried about the test score, and it wasn’t as important as my grades, actually.
They were more concerned about, “What did you do here? What did you do there?” They also wanted to see writing samples to make sure that I could write well, and that I had a decent idea of what I wanted to do, and that the school I applied to had the faculty members with the expertise I needed to guide me. That is critical. You don’t just apply to any school out there. You need to check and see what kind of research do they do. You don’t have someone to guide you. It’s a very lonely and long process.
[VF] I think that’s articulated perfectly. I guess the only thing I would add is yes, with the school choice, it’s not necessarily about school rankings. Schools within those ranking systems have different rankings based on the area of study as well. For example, if you’re interested in a history PhD, and you’re interested in Tudor England, a school could be number two in the country for history, but they don’t have that support. They don’t have experts in Tudor England.
Then why are you going to that school? It’s not going to be supportive to what you want to study. It’s not just about rankings, and it’s not just about the school in general being good, a fit for you, but I think, yeah, the mentorship is an incredibly important component.
[MM] I did a master’s degree and then did a PhD. I can say that one of the things that I wasn’t privy to until I started that master’s program was that the faculty at the master’s program frequently have inroads with faculty in other programs.
There’s often an unofficial liking between schools, and some schools prefer to have a closer look at those candidates who are coming from either an undergraduate school or a master’s program with a school that they’ve had good experiences with with their students in the past. I know that that was influential in my ability to go to the PhD program I went to.
How can you research that if you’re considering going for a master’s or undergrad? [5:28][MM] I would say develop trusting relationships with your professors, and as your conversations go further and further with the seriousness of what you want for your future, they will start to tell you stories about their suggestions for where to apply, and disclose perhaps where some of the previous students had gotten in, due to, in part, the affiliation with or the liking of the master’s program.
I want to go back to the importance of a post-PhD goal. There are a shrinking number of faculty positions in the humanities. If somebody doesn’t want to work in academia or is trying to be realistic about their job prospects post-PhD, what are some realistic goals? [6:01][CS] Well, as you know, my PhD is in French and Italian, but I actually got recruited to the Business School at Vanderbilt because I had lived abroad for about eight or nine years, and they wanted someone with international experience who also spoke the languages. They hired me to teach French for business and Italian for business.
These were not obviously crowded courses, but they were fun, and also to deal with the exchange programs and start recruiting the international students and working with them. From language and humanities, I went into business. I can say the main thing that got me in there is I could tell them the difference between Goldman Sachs and Saks Fifth Avenue. I learned it as I went along.
[VF] As someone who’s about to enter into the job market, I have thoughts on that, yeah. I think increasingly, departments are facing the reality that there’s a shrinking tenure track, professorship track, pool, and that jobs are becoming more and more and more competitive, and more difficult, and trying to think outside the box about what’s available. The truth is that there is a lot that’s out there for someone with a humanities PhD.
Some of it is more teaching-focused, so something like community colleges, some of it is more administrative-focused. There are lots … increasingly, universities are looking for PhDs in administrative positions, and positions to be decision makers on campus and to run centers. That’s a big part. Then outside of academia altogether, I know personally people with humanities PhDs who work in tech, who work in all sorts of different fields, you learn a research skill set, broadly speaking, in the humanities, that is pretty broadly translatable to lots of different fields.
I think a lot of people come into a PhD program expecting to be a professor and wanting to teach, but I think being open to other opportunities is a good thing, because they’re definitely out there.
[MM] I would say the vast majority of the people that I know who completed their PhDs had aspirations to be in academia. However, I do know people with PhDs in literature, or even literature and creative writing, who went and worked at museums, went and worked in art curating, in gallery archives, international programs for ESL, and on and on.
The not-for-profit route, though, is probably one that’s most appealing among the people that I’ve seen choose it, or choose an alternative path other than to go into academia, or they graduated, but they weren’t successful with their applications or their interviews, and they had to, by me, choose an alternative route.
[CS] Also, a good route to think about, because publishing companies do a lot, not just text publishing, but you do, as Vanessa said, you develop a lot of strong research skills, you know a lot about different things. You learn to think critically about what you’re looking at, so that you make a really good candidate for a publishing company.
Good point. I was thinking as you were all talking that one thing I would assume PhDs in the humanities learn is qualitative analysis. It may not be the quantitative analysis that’s typical in the STEM field, but qualitative analysis is also valuable, and it’s something that one would assume PhDs in the humanities should end up with at the end of that education. Now, let’s go back to the beginning of the process. We started at the end, which is not necessarily a bad place to begin.Several of you mentioned the important factors to consider in selecting programs to apply to, rankings aren’t the critical factor, the faculty advisor. Again, if the faculty advisor is so important, and strength in your specific niche in the humanities is so important, how does one go about researching that? [10:26][VF] First, you can turn to the internet. You’d be surprised at what is available through some very strategic searching through the university’s website. Most universities have bios and full CVs for many of their professors. They list the professors that are in the department. They also list the grad students that are in the department, where those grad students went to undergrad, what they’re studying, who their mentors are often. They list centers that are available at the university that target specific areas.
There may be a medieval center at a particular university that’s there for people dedicated to medieval studies and all different types of humanities fields. The first place really to look is just the site. I think people don’t realize how much information, and it’s not at your fingertips, it’s not on the homepage. You have to do some digging, but if you do some digging, you will find a lot of information. You can find their personal web pages with their entire CV, and their dissertation topic. Emails for contact. Cold contacting and kind of just doing outsider level research through their websites is the first step. Then the second step is honestly your own contacts at your university. As an undergrad, the professors that you work with, where did they go to university? Who do they know at other universities that they’re colleagues with, that they’re friends with? If you have the opportunity to go to a conference as an undergrad, conferences are essentially, a big part of that is networking and learning about other people who are also in your field of interest.
These are all ways to connect with people and learn who is in the area that you’re interested in working in. Then also the lists, while they’re not super helpful, or I wouldn’t rely only on the US News Report list of the top schools, they do also list what schools specialize in different areas within your fields of study. That can be a good starting point if you just have no idea what schools are best suited to what you’re interested in. Yeah, networking and then doing your research is really key.
We’ve been talking about applicants doing research on the schools and on the programs, but typically, when applying to PhD programs one has to have done research in order to show desire and ability to do it in the future. What is enough research when applying to PhD programs, and does an applicant have to be published? [14:11][MM] Well, I do think in the humanities, your writing sample is going to be critical. It should not only demonstrate that you can analyze and think critically, but it should also demonstrate where your interests are starting to streamline, so that this way, you’re already demonstrating at least a correlation, if not a match, with some of the interests of the faculty or the interests of the department.
What is their particular bend on this? Is this a very political school? Is this a very conservative school about approaching literature from a different direction? On and on. You really want to make sure that your writing sample speaks to them in several different ways, and reflects you in ways that they understand. One other thing I was going to say earlier was I’ve had some clients who wanted to go to PhD programs, but they were bound to their geographic area.
They were limited in where they could apply, and they were willing to adapt to the focus of the program because they weren’t necessarily wedded to a niche that they would stand for. I don’t know if that came out.
Basically, geography was more important to them than the specialty. [15:46][MM] Right. I highly recommend for my clients who have to stay where they are, to try to take a non-matriculating class or two with a professor who interests you. If there seems to be a good camaraderie and a recognition of your fit, then that person should be writing you a letter. You can take that class non-matriculating, and quite likely it will transfer in, but if it doesn’t, it’s not a major loss.
It really just opened up a little bit of a bridge. I’m a big believer in gathering up what you need to make your formal application much stronger, and if you have to go non-matriculating, then so be it.
[CS] I don’t think that being published is going to be critical. It is always better, but it’s not going to be the critical factor in acceptance. You do have to have at least presented at a conference, I think. That’s also a way to get your name out there and find people at the schools that might be a good fit for you. I know I’ve recently had two clients who had both done master’s degrees, but they had gone on to work after, and had been working in the real world, not academia, for at least five years.
They both discovered something that they were fascinated with and had decided, “I want to do a PhD program.” They didn’t have anything published, but they had really good reasons for why they wanted to do the research and why they wanted to do the PhD. We came up with some really good essays, and statements of purpose.
But neither one of them had the typical route. They didn’t go directly from undergrad to master’s to PhD. They went from undergrad, worked a couple of years, masters, worked a few more years, and then PhD. I think schools like a non-traditional path, because you’re going to add some knowledge to the program, depending on what you’ve been doing, obviously.
Does it make a difference from an admissions perspective if the applicant says, “I want to stay in academia,” or not? [18:09][CS] All I can say is I think that from what I gathered from my dissertation directors, yeah, they really wanted people who were going to be in academia to make the school more famous, obviously, and to garner credit for their work, as well as my work. I don’t know that we all are cognizant of the fact that there just aren’t jobs out there.
Or if there are, when I was looking, it was, “Oh, you can go here and replace somebody who’s pregnant for a year, and then go out to this Boise or whatever and replace somebody else.” There really were, it was bad. I think they recognize that fact, but as long as you are in there doing the research, and you have a legitimate reason for the research, and it’s going to do something, make an impact when you get through with it, I’m not sure that they really care as much anymore.
[VF] I definitely think that for a very long time, there was a stigma against people who were not interested in academia, so it was pretty good advice to say that you were planning on becoming a professor and that you wanted to continue to conduct research professionally. There still is a bit of a stigma for people who decide against applying to tenure-track positions entirely. I would say from an applicant’s perspective, it’s a pretty safe route to say that you want to go into academia and to continue to do research.
I also do think that it’s not the most important part of your application by any means, because that’s obviously going to be subject to change depending on what happens when you come out on the other side. I think just having a clear intention is the most important thing. I do think it’s the safest bet still probably to say that you want to go into academia and become a professor, because like I said, that stigma, depending on the school, it can vary, but that stigma against people who want to leave academia is still pretty strong.
Do you think that it’s important to have a plan B, or just deal with it when you get out? [21:13][VF] PhD programs are a lot longer than master’s programs. If you’re entering a master’s program, you have sort of two years to figure it out, and you’re coming out on the other side before you even realize it. A PhD program, especially in the humanities, can be five, six, even seven years. You really do have that luxury of time to figure, to worry about what you’re going to do on the other side, once you’ve actually gotten through the program.
I think the more important thing is to focus on figuring out what you want to study, and to figure out who you want to work with, and have that plan pretty set going in. That’s also something the Admissions is going to be looking for is that that is really concrete, but what you do afterwards will come, because you’re going to be a different person in five, six, seven, years anyway. Yeah, I think figuring out what you want to research is the more critical and more pressing issue.
[MM] I was exceptionally concerned about what I would do once I graduated. I didn’t have, as a graduate student for so many years, I didn’t have money in the bank. I really had to know what I could do to work to be able to stay independent. I did take one part-time gap year between finishing my PhD and starting a tenure track job. I can’t say that that was advantageous in any way. It’s just that the second year, I was more successful in the application process, but I absolutely had to have a plan B.
My story is a little bit less typical than some of the other people, but there were two things that I wanted to share. One was that sometimes graduate students who are already living with other graduate students in apartments and houses have a plan B collectively, that they’re all going to stay another year. They’re going to try to work part-time here, work part-time there, get an adjunct position somewhere nearby, and then they try to figure out the networking for the tenure track lines as they go.
They plan on a semi-soft gap year. The other thing I wanted to say is I think there’s a little bit of a divide among humanities faculty, in the sense of who is appealing to them, in that it’s, when you think about it, people working in academia really have a very different sense of work life, and they have a very different sense of a work community and what work means. They tend to stay a little bit insulated in that world.
When they just see more and more people of their ilk, it’s not all that interesting anymore, because that’s your little bubble and you’re in it all the time anyway. Sometimes, this isn’t my favorite way of saying it, but sometimes an applicant who is a career changer, or an applicant who works in one capacity but wants to study in another becomes really interesting to some of the faculty, because they’re just kind of tired of just the solely bookish type.
One favorite student was a professional boxer, things like this, an EMT, previously a cop, previously a surgeon. That kind of shakes up the community a little bit in a good way, makes people learn about each other, rather than just replicating that insularity.
Do you think your having been a nurse before going for your master’s and PhD might have put you in that bucket too? [24:57]It did push my application into the, “Let’s look at her again” pile. Yes. I didn’t even know that there was a faculty member at my master’s program who, committedly, was trying to recruit people who had blue collar jobs. At the time, my nursing job at that time, it’s not so much anymore, was kind of considered a blue collar job. He wanted all the cops, he wanted all the nurses, he wanted all those people to come in, and that was just serendipitous.
What is the role of the statement of purpose in the PhD application process? [25:38][VF] It plays a very important role. It tells the admissions committee the work that you have found most important that you’ve done so far. It’s an opportunity for you to describe, sometimes they don’t have a separate research statement. In many instances, this is also your opportunity to describe the kind of research that you’re interested in and what you want to do. It’s also your opportunity to make a case for why that particular school, and who you want to work with, and to state what your purpose is attending the program, to enter academia, or to work at a museum or whatever, as we discussed.
It really is your opportunity to tell your story about and construct your narrative, so that it’s clear that your life and your experiences have been leading to this point where you’re applying to this program, and for them to hopefully say, “Well, it makes perfect sense why they’re applying to our program, and they fit the criteria that we’re looking for.” It’s one of the most, especially in PhD and master’s programs, the statement of purpose is just so incredibly crucial.
[MM] I think more and more of the graduate programs, there are many more graduate programs now that are humanities, but they’re also in a certain way interdisciplinary. I think if you can look at your interests in a way where they don’t necessarily just have to be singularly defined, but it could be the intersection of two different disciplines. In a circumstance like that, your fit with how that graduate program works in interdisciplinary ways is critical.
You don’t want to learn how to grow orange trees from a program that grows pineapples. You don’t want to do it that way, but you want to find the intersection already and show your fit in that way. That there’s nothing wrong with finding one. One of my colleagues, one of the younger colleagues that I work with now, does a fusion of literature and economics. Yeah. That’s perfectly okay, but also, know who your faculty are at that school to make sure that there’s someone who already has a foot in that door or in that intersection.
Certainly the top schools who have graduate programs that are interdisciplinary really frame, when you look at their definition and their mission statements, they really frame what they do in that program as a space of staying open in spaces of uncertainty, so that this way, there could be more discoveries by way of the intersection of these different disciplines, so that you don’t have to step in feeling as if you know the answer of what this intersection means, but that you have to spend time in it in order to suddenly realize what it means.
[CS] Something just came to mind when you were talking about the disciplinary fields. My third area was pedagogy. That was totally fascinating to me. I did lots of papers with people in other departments about different techniques for learning languages, and it also applies not just to languages. It’s like how you learn different things. I learned all about people being visual learners, mechanical learners, memorization learners, or whatever it might be, the different kinds of learning styles, which I could then apply, when I was trying to do something with a group of students, to figure out, how are they best going to learn this?
How can I put them into groups where they’re going to be compatible? I think this is a skill that goes into teamwork as well. No matter what area you’re in, if you’re working in a team, you have to figure out, how do people learn what they need to learn, and how do you put them together the right way? That was probably one of the most valuable things I got out of it.
[VF] I think that it was something that I was thinking about as Christie was talking, and MJ, that sort of two things. One, something that we haven’t really touched upon, that Christie just touched upon, that is so crucial is the teaching component. That’s something that you learn on the job as you’re going through the PhD program, but when we’re talking about future careers, that often, the sort of pedagogical training and that component, can be the more valuable piece of the puzzle if you are deciding to work outside of academia.
There are additional skills outside of the research arena that you are absolutely learning as you go through a PhD program, and that’s such a crucial one. Then I was also thinking when you were talking about interdisciplinarity, that this speaks to a tricky part of the personal statement, which is you want to show that you have a clear area of research interest, whether it’s interdisciplinary, or whether it’s sort of located very firmly within a field, but you also want to show that you’re open to exploration.
One of the trickier parts of the personal statement is coming across that you have a very clear idea of what you want to research, but also that you’re excited to change your mind. That is a really tricky thing to convey through the personal statement. That’s something that I work a lot with my clients on is, are we being too rigid? Can we interject something that adds that sense that you’re wanting to explore? They’re not looking for someone who necessarily comes in, you want to have an idea of what you’re going to study, but you’re probably going to change your mind.
They want you to be open to that exploration. You take classes for a reason. That’s sort of a tricky thing to convey in the personal statement, but it’s incredibly important. Interdisciplinarity plays a big role in that, I think, too.
I read the memoirs of Bernard Lewis. Bernard Lewis was a scholar of the Near East. He passed away at over a hundred a few years ago, and I think he wrote his memoirs well into his nineties, maybe even at a hundred. I think he was initially at Oxford, and then he moved to the US and was at Princeton. He wrote about a time when he had a PhD applicant come, and he was interviewing the PhD applicant. He had been really interested in bringing this fellow into his department as a PhD candidate.He asked him, “What do you want to do? Why are you pursuing the PhD?” He says, “Well, I want to show that this piece of land, this disputed piece of land in the Middle East belongs to X,” and Lewis did not say what X is. He did not identify the disputed piece of land. Dr. Lewis asked him, “How do you know that it belongs to the country in question?” He said, “Well, everybody knows it, so I want to do the research that will prove it.” What will you do if your research proves otherwise?” He says, “Oh, it won’t.”He wasn’t invited to join the program. I think that, going to your point of exploration and flexibility, that particular candidate was not showing the necessary open mind and openness to following the data, or even reasonable curiosity about the data. [32:33][CS] We’re dealing with hypotheses here. We’re not dealing with concrete facts, in most cases.
Let’s talk about the role of the writing sample, specifically what makes for a good writing sample. Should it be something that the applicant composes for the application? Is it a sample of research they’ve done? Should it be a statement of the research they want to do? What should it be? [34:31][MM] Well, it really depends on the orientation of the program, I think. For instance, my PhD was actually a specific kind of PhD program that had a creative dissertation, not an analytical dissertation. My writing sample needed to be creative writing, and preferably sending them creative writing that had already been accepted for publication. In my field, it kind of just makes practical sense that if you’re already involved in these genres, and you’re already publishing in these genres, your writing sample might need to reflect the genre that is your area.
They do group you according to genre, under the umbrella of the entire pool of PhD students entering the program. They can’t have 31 fiction writers and one poet. They have to have a pretty good balance for their genres. On the other hand, in the analytical writing, I think that it has to be able to show disciplined critical thinking, and literary analysis, no matter how you define your role in that, whether you are working from theory, whether you’re working intersecting theories, whether you are working in a more traditional close reading kind of arena, but that it should reflect where you would fit.
[CS] I think that’s perfectly said, because you start out with an idea and that’s what you want to develop, but then I kept getting off track. I would be researching something and find something else. “Oh, that’s even more interesting.” My dissertation director had to pull me back and say, “You’ve really got to pick one of these things. You cannot write a 9,000-page dissertation.” I really had to curb myself, but there’s so many interesting things out there.
[VF] I think part of it’s also length. Most of the time, for people applying to these programs, applying to a PhD program, your choices are limited because it’s usually like, you’ve done one substantial project, maybe an honors thesis, but it really is just, like everyone has said, there to show that you can do strong analytical work, that you can do the traditional close reading, that you’ve engaged with either theoretical concepts or history in some fashion.
That also does remind me that different schools do have different approaches to how they do the discipline overall. Some schools are very theory-heavy and are really interested in people who engage with theoretical concepts. Looking back at my acceptance to UCLA for the PhD program, UCLA in the English field is very heavy on history, and sort of historicism, and social contextualization of literature. I didn’t even know that that’s what I was doing. That was just the way I approached the text in undergrad, but it is the way that I tend to work.
It makes perfect sense in retrospect that they would be interested in me, because I was approaching the text in a way that their school was known for, which I was very ignorant of when I was applying to graduate school and didn’t even realize that that was the case. Someplace like Chicago, which is incredibly famous for more of a theory-heavy approach, may not have been interested in my work.
Kind of understanding a little bit about yourself and your approach is a good idea when you’re looking at your writing sample, but at the end of the day, it should really just be your best work in that area. You probably won’t have that many choices of what to submit, because of the length and the depth that they’re looking for. Pick the best one and edit it carefully, and then that’s all you can really do, honestly, and a lot of-
It seems like the instructions also that come with the writing sample requests are really critical. Obviously, follow whatever instructions you get, whether it’s the writing sample, or the statement of purpose, or whatever materials they request. Do you agree with that? [39:17][VF] Yes, yeah.
[MM] I’m just looking around at the requirements or the prompts for the statement of purpose or the personal statement, depending. Again, same thing as in other disciplines as well. Sometimes the prompts are very wide open, and sometimes they’re very detailed. They have several layers and several steps. Just make sure that you know precisely what it is that they’re asking for it.
Who should applicants seek as recommenders? [39:57][CS] Well, I came from a little different background, so Vanessa might be better at this one than me, because I had been working and living in France when I decided to come back to the states and do the PhD, so I didn’t have really recent recommenders from college, but I did call upon one where I’d started the master’s program. She liked me and knew that I’d made progress, and wrote the recommendation for me.
I actually got one from one of my bosses, and he had no idea about my academic research, but he knew that I could do research, and that I was fluent in the language, and that wasn’t an issue. He did the other one, but that’s pretty uncommon, because normally, you’re going to have an academic recommender.
It’s nice to know that if you’re a nontraditional applicant, then you have that option. What makes a good recommender for a traditional applicant? [40:49][VF] It’s the people who can speak best and most positively, really. I left undergrad and I worked for five years in publishing. I did know that I wanted to go back and complete my PhD, so I did strategically keep in touch with the professors that I wanted as my recommenders, and had secured them as my recommenders before I left undergrad. I definitely recommend, if you’re not sure about when you want to go on the timeline for a PhD, to kind of at least lock in some relationships and keep in touch, say Merry Christmas, or happy holidays, or happy Hanukkah, or whatever to them, and kind of keep in touch.
Also, sometimes that’s where a master’s program can be really helpful as well. Honestly, I say this to clients who are kind of debating, and I say this to students all the time, that if I could do it again, I probably would’ve gotten a master’s first. After leaving undergrad for five years and then entering a PhD program, I felt incredibly in over my head. I hadn’t written a paper in five years, and I was entering a PhD program. It was very intimidating and daunting.
If it’s been a while and you don’t feel that you have any relationship with professors, or you have good recommenders, that might be a sign that you might want to do a master’s first, just to see what academia is about and what this level of research entails before you commit to a very long program and that process. You will get much better and much stronger recommenders.
You also get a master’s degree if you decide not to pursue the PhD. [43:00][VD] Right, yeah. You come out of it, the time commitment is so much shorter. Two years is not nothing, but it’s a lot shorter than a PhD. You’ll have a much better understanding of what it entails. If you are someone who doesn’t think they have recommenders, that might be a good sign that you want to figure out whether you want to do this. A master’s is a good way to do that.
Would you ever recommend that somebody in college ask a professor to write a recommendation to use to apply to a PhD program in four or five years? [43:33][VF] That’s what I did. I asked people on my way out, and part of it was I was expecting to only take a year off and work in publishing, and it turned into five years, but yeah. That worked out pretty well, because they could basically just update the date that they had. Even if our relationship had faded and they forgotten who I am, at the time that they wrote the letter, they knew. That was helpful. Yeah. I would definitely recommend that if you’re thinking of taking a gap year, secure those letters before you do.
[MM] I think it’s also, in a way, courteous to do it ahead of time like that, because five years out, your professors will have encountered so many other special students as well. To have a letter that had been guided by common experiences in, say, either an Interfolio file or even if some professors will also send you a copy of that letter as a courtesy and let you hold onto it, so when it’s time to get back in touch with them again, you make it easier for them to have fuller recollection.
They’ll recognize their own writing where they want to replicate what I said in paragraph two, because I’m reading it now five years later, and I like what I wrote.
Do you have any last words of advice, or is there anything that you wish I would’ve asked you? [45:22][MM] You do not necessarily have to have the equivalent undergraduate degree major as the graduate program that you’re going to. You could be a librarian, but you’ve been publishing stories, and then you want to go over to an MFA program or something like that. There’s not necessarily the same expectation as other disciplines, where, like for instance, social work, many graduate programs want you to have the BSW, and then you can go into their master’s program. They’ll make that very plain in their description of who they are and who they want.
In the humanities, there’s a lot more negotiation because there’s overlap. It’s a good time to encourage that, so you don’t necessarily have to go back to school to get that undergraduate major that matches directly all the time. Some schools might prefer that, but you can see that through the CVs of their faculty, and the CVs of their graduate students as well, about whether or not they are open to a variety of different approaches academically to get to their program.
[CS] I think take the GRE early if you can, while you’re still in school. The scores are valid for five years. Make sure that you do get it, because I just was talking with a friend last night who almost didn’t graduate, because when she went to do the test, there wasn’t a test time available. This was back before everything was computerized. She took another one instead.
When she was coming up for graduation, they said, “Well, you can’t graduate.” She said, “Why not?” “Well, you don’t have a GRE.” “But I have this test.” It doesn’t matter. Book says you have to have a GRE, you have to have a GRE. She had to take it in her last year of grad school while she was doing research, so take the test early. That’s my advice.
[VF] I guess the only thing I would say is start earlier than you think you need to, especially for humanities, PhD, with the writing sample, the quantity of writing that you need to submit is different from other programs. Keeping that in mind, you’re going to have a lot of editing on your plate. Yeah, taking that test early, getting it out of the way, so you can focus on all this writing work that you need to do for the application is pretty important, so start early.
Relevant Links:
- Fitting in and Standing Out: the Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, free download
- Vanessa Febo Consultant Profile
- Dr. Mary Mahoney Consultant Profile
- Dr. Christie St. John Consultant Profile
- Applying to PhD Programs: When, Where, How, and Why?
Related shows:
- How to Write a Great Statement of Purpose, podcast Episode 473
- What to Know About Applying for a PhD in STEM, podcast Episode 410
- Writing a Compelling Personal Statement, podcast Episode 368
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Show SummaryThe 2024-25 medical school application cycle is looming. In fact, for many it’s already started. Would you like to learn how to craft a quality application to medical school, a compelling persuasive application? Well, that’s the topic of today’s episode, so tune in.
Show NotesWelcome to the 567th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you considering using an admissions consultant at any point during your medical school application journey? Well, if you are, you are eligible for a free 30-minute consultation with a top-notch, experienced Accepted admissions consultant.
A lot of experience is one thing you don’t want to have when applying to medical school, but you sure would like to have a personal guide and mentor with decades of just such experience by your side as you’re going through this really tough and long process. That’s what Accepted provides. If you’re interested in learning more, just go to accepted.com/freemedcall and sign up for invaluable guidance. And that initial call is 100% free.
And even if you have that guide, you probably want to know the itinerary, as well as what you need to bring on your trip, and that’s what we’re going to discuss today.
I have many times said that in order to apply successfully to medical school, you need to have competitive qualifications, and you also need to present those qualifications effectively via your primary and secondary applications, as well as the all important interview.
Today, we’re going to address how to do exactly that, so hold onto your hats or your earbuds. There’s a lot to cover here. Also, because there’s so much to cover, Accepted is providing a worksheet for you that you can use to take notes on today’s show or to set up a to-do list that you can use throughout the application process. Remember, a goal without a plan is really a wish. And it’s a goal to get accepted to medical school, not a wish. So, the note-taking and to-do list with due dates can help you turn your dream into reality and make sure that that goal is not just a wish, along with the personal guide that I mentioned a minute ago. Again, you can find the free worksheet here.No registration is required. So, just get your copy and enjoy.
Five essential ingredients of a successful medical school application [2:57]A successful medical school application has five essential ingredients, if you don’t mind me mixing travel and cooking metaphors in the show. Include them all in your application and your chances of acceptance are excellent. Leave off any one element, any one ingredient, and your chances are simply greatly diminished. Again, if you have all five, then medical schools will want you and accept you. My goal for this podcast is to show you that a successful medical application has to have each of these five elements, not one, not two, not three, not even four, all five. And I’d suggest that you see page three of the worksheet, where you can jot down to-dos for your medical school application during the podcast or after, I mentioned that a second ago, I’m mentioning it again. The task list will probably shrink and grow during the process at different points in time, but it will guide you and help you as you apply.
- Demonstrate you can do the work in medical school [3:48]Okay, so essential ingredient number one. I’ll list them all at the end, but let’s go one by one for now: demonstrate you can do the work in medical school. That’s just foundational. Do you have the educational foundation, intellectual ability, the capability to succeed and handle the work? And how do you intend to show that you have that, that you can do that work?
Well, the most common way, and here I’m talking academically, the most common way is through your undergraduate transcript and your MCAT score, and this is usually presented in the primary application, because it is so foundational. And you ideally want to be at or above the averages for accepted students, particularly students, for both your grades and your test scores.
If you don’t have that, how can you convince schools to accept you with below average, let’s start with grades. Well, first of all, realize that averages are what they are because some are accepted with below-average stats. However, the farther away you are from the average on the below side, and if both your grades and MCAT scores are below average, the less likely it is that you can effectively demonstrate you can do the work. What if you have below-average grades? Well, I would suggest that you consider a post-bac program, preferably one, depending upon the circumstances that you were dealing with, that will help you with study skills. If science grades are below average, consider a post-bac program that will allow you to bring them up. Perhaps one that also, again, provides the study skill support that I mentioned.
A high MCAT score can mitigate somewhat low grades. For U.S. allopathic schools, ideally, you want to be at 510 plus. A 511 doesn’t guarantee rejection and a 511 plus doesn’t guarantee acceptance. The average MCAT score for those accepted to allopathic medical schools in 2022, 2023 was a 511.9. In other words, a 512. So, that should be a guideline to you in terms of what you are aiming for, what you have, and where you should apply.
In terms of showing that you can do the work and meet the expectations of the medical schools you’re applying to, you need to apply to medical schools where your test scores and GPA are competitive in range. Yes, the medical schools consider other factors. We have holistic review and all that, and that’s going to deal with the next four elements that I’m going to discuss, deal with all that other stuff, but the grades and test scores count. They count. And that ability to do the work, to handle the academics is generally evident in your transcript and test scores. The objective, quantitative elements of the application. Okay, so that was ingredient number one, or essential element number one.
- Show that you know what clinical practice is [6:26]Essential element number two, show that you know what clinical practice is and have a realistic idea of what you’re getting into, that you’re committed to it, and perhaps have some direction within medicine.
Medical schools want to admit people who are committed to medicine, who are committed to a life of service, and in this particular way. And the way to show that you know what you’re getting into and that you have that passion, that calling for medicine, is to have been in clinical settings. If you’ve done this before, they know that you’re not going to be squeamish at the sight of blood. They know that you are realistic about the demands of clinical medicine and that you understand that not all patients are nice, not all family members are polite, and not all outcomes are good. That’s just a reality in medicine. Can you handle the workload, the emotional strain, and the sheer hard work of being a clinician, especially being a medical student and resident? Because that’s what’s going to come first, and that is really critical.
I’ve interviewed many, many medical school admissions directors, and there are some distinctions, but not one has said, “Clinical exposure is not important to us.” It’s mandatory. And it’s not just clinical exposure where you’re checking the box, “Okay, I got X hours. I’m done. I’m good. I can apply.” No, it’s this sense that you find this kind of work fulfilling and you really want to help people in this particular way. My plumber helps me too, my roofer helps me, all these people help me when I have a plumbing problem or a roofing problem, but do you want to help people in healthcare situations? Many times, life-and-death situations.
Then, do you have the direction both in terms of your educational needs and your post-med school plans? The road to becoming a doctor, a physician is very windy. It has curves, it has dips, it has potholes, and you don’t have to know exactly what you don’t want and what you want to do. You don’t have to know what specialty you want to go into. But if you have some direction, it will help you show that you have the realism that medical schools want, help you choose your schools, and many secondaries will ask you why you want to attend their school.
Well, have you thought about the kind of education you want to have; problem-based learning, systems-based learning, team-based learning? Are you more interested in primary care specialties? Do you have areas of interest that match the school’s focus and strengths? If a particular school sends a large percentage of its graduates into family medicine and you’re interested in family medicine, an unusually large percentage, then that’s one way of showing fit with the school. To the contrary, if the school sends a lot of people into nephrology, for example, or OB-GYN, or cardiology, or whatever after internal medicine, then again, that is one indication that that’s a really good school for you.
But there are other kinds of foci in medical school; social justice and advocacy, urban versus rural medicine, primary care versus specialties, and of course, in-state versus out-of-state.
You want to apply to most of your in-state schools if you have any chance at them. But then, if you have to look out-of-state, are you going to be looking at schools that accept a fair number of out-of-state applicants? If they don’t, you really have to question why are you applying unless you have some ties to that particular state or region that are demonstrable. Do you have a research or a clinical focus? Do your activities, experiences reflect your stated interests? Don’t say you have this interest in rural medicine when you’ve always lived in a big city and you’ve never traveled to rural areas. Vice versa. If you’ve always lived in a rural area and you’ve never been in a big city, don’t say you have a fascination with urban medicine because you’ve never experienced it.
This realism will come out in your essays, both in the primary application, the secondary application, your letters of recommendation, and of course, your interviews. Realize that in admissions, past behavior reflects your true interests and values and frequently is considered to predict future behavior. So, no disconnects, please between what you say you’re interested in and what you’ve actually done.
So, that’s ingredient number two, essential ingredient number two, show that you have a realistic idea of clinical medicine and an experientially based idea of clinical medicine.
- Show that you share the school’s value and mission [10:55]And essential ingredient number three, show that you share the school’s values and its mission, which I touched on a little bit in number two, but you really want to show that alignment. And the secondary applications and interview is where the main point will be this alignment and fit. The primary is going to all medical schools. You can’t show fit with any one school. By the time you get to the secondary, it’s directed, it’s focused on the specific school.
“Why do you want to attend this program?” is almost always asked. If it’s not asked, it’s thought of by the people reading your application. Why should they want you intheir program? That’s not usually asked. I can’t even think of one school that specifically asked that question off the top of my head, but it is something that you should be addressing in your application. Again, showing that your interests, your values, your sense of mission matches theirs.
And have you provided evidence that you share their values and mission through your activities and lessons learned from different experiences. It’s not just that you’re going to say, “Oh, I did X, Y, Z. I spent Y hours doing,” whatever it was. What did you learn from it? What did you contribute? How did you grow? How did other people respond? What were the results? You want to bring that out also. That will show self-reflection and maturity, as well as, again, this ability to show that you share fit, values, mission, and that there’s an alignment.
Now, what is the reason, I keep talking about fit and alignment? Look at the school’s mission and values. I’ve interviewed many, many medical school admissions directors and deans. Check out Admissions Straight Talk for relevant interviews, and you can find them at blog.accepted.com/listen-med.
In secondary essays, if you’re asked, and as well as in interviews, be able to talk about your experiences and draw from them the qualities that your target programs value. So, again, if service to the urban underserved is a priority for the school, talk about your experience at an urban soup kitchen and how effective you were as a member of the food service team. That’s just an example. If your target has programs in rural medicine, and that’s your interest, then you can talk about your upbringing in rural Montana or Georgia or whatever rural area you lived in and your desire to settle there, if it’s true.
I want to again emphasize that there’s a big difference between mouthing platitudes, spitting back the school’s website, which they don’t want, and showing that you share the values. They know what their website says. What they want to do is know about you. So, make sure that you’re not trying to pull some magic trick or rabbit out of the hat.
Most admissions committee readers have excellent baloney sniffers, and they don’t want baloney. They want realism. And the examples that you provide in your essays, your experience descriptions, your bullet points, in your CV or your work descriptions, if you provide a CV, sometimes you do for an interview, items in your activity history, what your recommenders say about you, and your responses to interview questions must all demonstrate these qualities.
And there is nothing wrong in saying, let’s say in an interview question, let’s say you know a school values advocacy, and you can talk about how you worked in a congressional office and you were advocating for whatever you were advocating for. Can definitely bring out these qualities without just mouthing the terms or social justice that you’re going to find on the website. You don’t have to spit that back, phrases at all. You have to demonstrate these qualities through the examples you choose to provide in your essays and interview responses.
Again, if you have professional direction or think you know what area of medicine you want to go to, check out residency placement data to select the schools that are strong in your area of interest. You can still change your mind in medical school, no problem, but if your current focus turns out to be your most desired residency, you may just be a little bit ahead of the game, and it’s one more way to show fit and alignment.
Caution, if you focus on stats, rankings, and forum rumors or Reddit rumors, you’re going to really obscure this aspect of admissions. Medical schools have the lowest acceptance rates of any professional programs, any of them, lower than MBA business schools, lower than law schools. They have lots and lots of applicants and they can be and are choosy. You need to know each of the school’s missions when you’re applying, especially when you’re filling out the secondaries, in order to both choose the most appropriate schools for you and convince them to accept you.
- Demonstrate you’ll make the school proud [15:57]All right, number four, the fourth essential ingredient, demonstrate that you’ll be able to contribute to class discussions and teamwork, the school’s community, and ultimately make the school proud. How do you do that? Well, you want to reveal a habit of contribution and commitment to serving others through your essays, resume, activity, history, interview, and letters of rec. Have you contributed in the past? That’s the best way to show you’ll contribute in the future. Again, past behavior predicts future behavior.
This is a reason that non-clinical community service is increasingly important in the medical school application process. The definition of community can be very broad. It can be any group that you’re a part of and that you serve, but it’s a service where you really make a commitment and you assume responsibility. That “assume responsibility,” by the way, is the differentiator between being a nice person, which is definitely a good thing to be, and actually assuming a role, a community service role. And that makes it more valuable from an admissions perspective.
It is increasingly important that your community service also includes service to the underserved. So, if your community is relatively affluent or not considered underserved, then branch out. There are lots and lots of opportunities, but show that you’re culturally multilingual, if you will, and you can deal with people who are different from you, especially the underserved.
Now, non-traditional applicants may have extensive experience to draw on. They might have been working for several years. They might have been working in a field that is not directly medical. And they can use that diverse experience and should use that diverse experience to show an ability to contribute that many applicants who’ve followed more traditional paths may not be able to do it.
So, let’s say you are an engineer, you’re really a problem solver, and that can be highly relevant in diagnosis and creating treatment plans. Perhaps you were a teacher. Well, then, presumably you’ve developed your communication skills and particularly your ability to explain complex topics to people who weren’t previously exposed to them, whether it’s children or older people. Maybe you were a team leader or engagement manager as a consultant or in business, well, then you have leadership, teamwork and organizational skills. And you can point this out, again, when relevant in your application, and try and use that non-traditional background as a strength, provided that you also show the other things that medical schools are looking for.
And again, medical schools definitely want to increase the percentage of underrepresented groups in their programs, and ultimately, in the physician population. So, that’s another way of distinctive background. Personal background can be used to show an ability to contribute.
I know I’m repeating myself, most medical schools have too many qualified applicants. Many of the people rejected by most medical schools can do the work. They might be accepted by another medical school and have fine careers. But informally, medical school admissions is a two-step process. One is evaluation, determining the qualifications, and there are always too many qualified people in applying to medical school. And the second one is selection, and that’s crafting a diverse class of committed, talented future physicians.
The implication of the selection process, yes, they want someone who can do the work, they want someone who shares their values, they want someone who knows something about clinical medicine. However, given the competition, if you have those four items, that’s just not enough. Medical schools have no reason to admit someone without something distinctive to contribute or someone lacking a record of past impact and contribution. Again, that past impact and contribution will be evidence to them that you’re going to be a person of impact and contribution, both in their medical school and beyond.
- Revealing the character and qualities that medical schools value [19:55]And the fifth element that’s absolutely critical and vital in medical school applications is revealing the character and qualities that medical schools value. Now, I’m sure if I were able to present this to you in a dialogue or in a webinar, I would ask you, “What character traits are med schools looking for?” I’m not going to do that because this is a one-to-many kind of presentation, a podcast.
What are some of the qualities? Think about it yourself just for a second, but now I’ll tell you what I think of: compassion and humility. That might surprise you, but I do think that’s an important one. Attention to detail, professionalism, teamwork, communication skills, both the ability to speak clearly and to listen well. These traits should come through in the stories you tell in your personal statements, the MMEs, the most meaningful experience essays, the activity descriptions, the secondaries, the interview, both traditional and the MMI, and your letters of recommendation, and also in the impactful activity essay in the medical school application. Leadership is highly valued, as is teamwork and the ability to work collaboratively, because as I can remember many admissions directors and deans telling me, “Medicine is a team sport.” Compassion and caring is absolutely required. Humility doesn’t mean that you demean yourself, but definitely is the opposite of arrogance and is required for effective teamwork.
Attention to detail is reflected in the care you take in your essays and applications. I can remember an assistant dean of admissions absolutely railing against the typos and lack of punctuation she sometimes saw in her school’s at the time simple secondary application.
And also realize, people, your application isn’t Facebook, it isn’t WhatsApp, or X, or Instagram. You’re applying to a professional school. Show that you’re a professional in the way you address the school via your application, or even in simple emails. Be professional.
Now, in selecting the examples in your essays and interviews, choose those examples and experience and anecdotes that answer the question and reveal these traits, most of which are also reflected in the medical school’s values and mission in one way or another.
And don’t make the reader think too hard. As Accepted consultant, Cydney Foote articulately laid out in her Nail Your Medical School Interview webinar, and which I’ll link to from the show notes at accepted.com/567, you want to explicitly weave into your anecdotes the traits you want the schools to recognize. Don’t rely on them to figure it out or come to a conclusion that you want them to reach, just tell them. And again, I’m not talking about spitting back the website, I am talking about articulating the qualities that you exhibited in particular anecdotes and stories. Don’t hit them over the head with it, but do articulate it, so they don’t have to guess, they don’t have to figure it out.
One more way to show professionalism, commitment, discipline, and organization is to apply early and respond to all secondaries quickly. Almost every med school admissions person I have ever spoken with says, “Apply early.” And the metaphor I heard once from Ryan Gray, a competitor IS:, “Medical school admissions is like musical chairs. As you go through the process, there are fewer and fewer chairs available in the circle, especially for interviews.” So with secondaries, return them ideally within two weeks of receipt, and don’t compromise on quality with those secondaries either.
I know, I know, I know it’s hard. What I suggest you do is research the schools, take notes as you do your research, before you choose where to even apply, and before those secondaries start raining down on you, and you can use the time between the submission of your primary and the arrival of secondaries to pre-write the most common secondary questions for the schools you are most interested in. That way, you’ll be able to really turn around those applications quickly. There are lots of places, including Accepted, where you can find secondary essays. On Accepted, you can also find tips on how to respond to many of the most common questions.
Some bonus advice…[24:00]Now, let’s go back to your goal, get accepted this year and start medical school in 2025. And basically, you want to show you belong in medical school, and particularly in the schools that you’re applying to. And here’s a little bonus advice to keep in mind, the admissions committee readers are sharp, intelligent professionals. They’ve seen it all. They’ve read every kind of nonsense possible. Don’t try to craft, fake, or fool. The best presentation of you is an authentic reflection of your achievements and dreams, keeping in mind the five essential ingredients of a successful medical school application. That’s what you need to get accepted this year and start medical school in 2025.
Are any of you feeling a little bit overwhelmed now? Well, that wasn’t my intention, but applying to medical school is one tough process. I’ve spoken with hundreds, if not thousands of medical applicants like you, and sometimes their parents, and they are striving to get into medical school, stressed at the work involved and the possibility that they may not make the cut, because, frankly, over 50% of medical school applicants are rejected. We, here at Accepted, know how difficult and stressful this process can be, and we’re here to help you. Your goal is to apply confidently and successfully to the right programs for you. The art of what I like to call the art of the possible.
Now, you’re at a crossroads now. You can take a do-it-yourself approach, or you can invest in your professional future. Every year, we work with applicants who talked to us a year earlier and decided after taking the do-it-yourself approach and getting rejected they wanted to work with us. As a matter of fact, I just spoke to somebody yesterday who said he had considered using us several years ago, but he applied twice without success, and now he’s seriously interested in working with us. When you work with a consultant, and he would’ve been better off working with us initially, and frankly, so would you. Why? Our clients benefit from the know-how supplied by experts applying their expertise to them. In this case, you, as your application journey unfolds, and that advice is for you on an individual basis.
No matter how hard I try in a podcast, my advice has to be general. When you work with an Accepted consultant, the advice is specific to you and custom. It’s individualized, personalized, and just for you. Given the complexity of the application process and the stakes, you need a guide who knows the process inside and out, can support you through this grueling journey. You need Accepted to be your guide. When you engage with Accepted, you can access professional expert advice, experience, objectivity, which is sometimes really, really hard to maintain. You can save time, apply with confidence, and hopefully apply successfully.
We have admissions experts, the guides, who can mentor you through the process so that you achieve your goal of applying confidently and successfully. Former admissions directors, staff members, post-bacc program directors who have been on the other side, evaluating applicants and guiding applicants, who can mentor you through the application process.
So, here’s what I suggest you do, visit accepted.com/primary if you haven’t yet visited our services section. And there are other services also. This is the primary application page. If you want just a little bit of help, you can also see that there are hourly options from that page. And you can also sign up from any of these pages for that free consultation I talked about at the beginning. Try us out at no cost to you.
And some of you may say, “Isn’t Accepted expensive?” Well, frankly, so is rejection. Our fees are clear, but the cost of rejection is not quite as obvious, even though it can be significantly higher. So, let’s take a look at the risks of not applying with an Accepted consultant by your side. The cost of reapplication can easily be a few thousand dollars in application fees alone, a year of earnings at a much lower level than after you earn your MD or DO degree, an additional year of those earnings, and there’s the potential that you could have gotten into a better program with greater lifetime opportunities and even earnings. The key one though is that year of earnings at a much lower level than if you had gotten into your MD or DO program a year earlier.
So, once again, this is what I recommend you do as a follow-up to today’s podcast, I guess, a little homework for you, go to accepted.com/medschool2025 and use the worksheet to apply today’s podcast to your situation and plan what you need to do going forward. If you are considering accessing professional guidance as you advance toward your future career, and you should at least consider it, request a free consultation at accepted.com/freemedcall. Again, that’s accepted.com/freemedcall. And we’ll also have links in the show notes at accepted.com/567 to all these links. To check out the services, get the guidance you need to apply confidently and effectively, I recommend going to accepted.com/primary, though you can check out any of our services.
And again, I’m going to emphasize my final thought, my main point to you here is that all five of the essential ingredients we’ve discussed are necessary for a successful application. It’s not one or two or even three or four that will do. You need all five. Accepted applicants have the five, our successful clients have the five, and you can have them too.
Relevant Links
- Start Medical School in 2025: How To Get Accepted This Year, worksheet
- Free Consultation with a Med School Expert
- Med School Primary Application Packages
- Hourly Med School Advising
- Nail Your Medical School Interview webinar
Related Shows
- All You Need to Know about the New Frist College of Medicine, podcast Episode 558
- Applying to Medical School? The Pre-Med Competencies are What You Must Show, podcast Episode 554
- Are You Rushing to Attend Rush Medical College, podcast Episode 551
- How to Get Accepted to Chicago Medical School at Rosalind Franklin University, podcast Episode 544
Show SummaryHere at Accepted, we’re getting more and more inquiries from applicants interested in PhD programs in the STEM fields, so Linda Abraham has invited a panel of Accepted consultants to discuss PhD admissions in engineering, life sciences, and STEM. The panelists discuss what PhD programs in STEM typically look for in applicants, including academic achievements and research experience. They emphasize the importance of research experience, publications, and presentations in the application process. The panelists also discuss the role of rankings in selecting schools, the importance of finding the right faculty advisor, and the significance of the statement of purpose in the application. They provide advice for interview preparation and offer insights for re-applicants and international applicants.
Show NotesWelcome to the 566th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. The challenge at the heart of PhD admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target programs and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance. You can download this free guide and accepted.com/fiso.
Our panelists today are Dr. Karin Ash, Accepted consultant since 2015 and former director of the Career Management Center at Cornell’s Johnson School, career coach at Cornell’s College of Engineering, and Director of Cornell Career Services; Dr. Herman “Flash” Gordon, Accepted consultant since 2014 and former chair of the U of Arizona Tucson College of Medicine’s admissions committee as well as a member of several Ph.D. admissions committees; and Dr. Barry Rothman, Accepted consultant since 2015 and Emeritus Professor of Biology, and founder and former Director of SF State University Postbac Programs.
Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:05][BR] Great to be here.
When we talk about PhDs in STEM, we have a very broad topic. What will most STEM PhD programs want to see in applicants both academically and experientially? [2:11][KA] I used to work with MBAs. When I was at one of my stints at Cornell and was working with MBAs, the admissions team would look for leadership and achievements in that regard, personality, being able to lead a team, being able to get along with a lot of other people and being able to motivate other people. I have found with STEM that it is very much about achievements in the STEM field and less focused on personality. Yes, you need to get along on any project team, and yes, it would be ideal that if you are, let’s say going to work in industry, that you become a leader someday, but I think what I have seen is it’s more about the achievements in their field. Some of my PhD clients have come directly from undergrad, they were just able to get a number of research experiences as an undergrad and applied successfully to PhD programs. Others have come to me from master’s programs. I’m not sure that there’s a right way or a wrong way, it depends on what your own experience is, but you can be successful either route.
You seem to be dealing more with the experiential qualifications. [4:00][KA] Especially research experience. Let’s say you’re applying after working in industry, but you never had any research experience as an undergrad or in industry, then the challenge is much tougher. If you had research experiences at your university, even if you’re not published, you have an easier path.
Barry, do you want to add something? [4:33][BR] Yeah, I wanted to add that I think for STEM PhD applicants, one of the criteria is you need to know how to think and that the entire application process emphasizes that and experience. They don’t want somebody who was a pair of hands who was told what to do on a research project and wasn’t intellectually involved, so I think that’s extremely important. Then, I think this is advice I give to all my PhD interviewees, is: be a good listener. A lot of times when you’re being interviewed, the person interviewing you wants to tell you more about them than they want to know about you, so being a good listener really, really works. One of my mentees with whom I work, who’s not an Accepted client, just got into UCSF’s PhD program, and I told him to be a good listener, and it worked very well.
Flash, do you want to add anything to this? [5:38][HG] I think there’s this issue of metrics versus experiences. There was a sea change in STEM about 10 years ago or so where metrics really got downplayed.
Metrics as in GPA and test scores? [5:58][HG] Exactly. So a lot of places don’t even accept GRE scores anymore, and what they want instead is a strong letter from your undergraduate advisor. They want evidence that you can problem solve, that you can make an experiment work. People talk about having good hands. If you have good hands, it means that you get results, and there are a lot of people who can’t do that and it won’t show up in their metrics. But it does show up in what you write about in your personal statement and what your advisor writes about your performance, so that’s most important. There was actually a formal study about this where they looked at outcomes for PhD students. It was actually in biological sciences, so biochemistry. What they found was that the metrics had absolutely no correlation with outcomes and that what did have a very strong outcome was the letter from the undergraduate PI.
[KA] I would add one more thing. Barry, you emphasized thinking, and Flash mentioned problem-solving, depending on the field, but I’m thinking of computer science and some of the sciences, being innovative and creative is also important because depending on what you’re going to do, first of all, your research is going to be original. But if you’re going into any kind of industry position, you’re going to be developing products. You need to be innovative, you need to be a visionary.
Isn’t part of the purpose of the PhD in research to expand human knowledge? That demands critical thinking, problem-solving, and innovativeness. Am I correct? [7:55][KA] Yes.
[BR] Yes, I agree. I think of a PhD as a license to do research as a way of formalizing your training and showing that you know enough to be able to go out there and do some research. I did want to add one other thought in terms of what makes a good PhD applicant. Certainly having publications helps, and many PhD applicants don’t have any peer-reviewed journal articles, but getting your name on some abstracts and presenting at national meetings or even local meetings can be very meaningful and show that you are thinking in the publication zone.
We’ve been talking about what PhD programs would like to see in applicants. What should applicants be looking for when they’re choosing a program? [9:08][BR] Well, having had a faculty advisor who was less than perfect, I can say that the lab is sort of a family and you can have a dysfunctional family or a highly functional family. So it’s good to find out from the other grad students and other people working in the lab, postdocs, etc, just how healthy the psychological environment is in the lab. Some advisors are negligent and don’t pay attention, some are really hands-on, some are micromanagers. So understanding the psychological dynamics in the lab, I think is one extremely important part of choosing correctly.
[KA] I also think the critical piece in looking for the right program is the research being conducted by the faculty in that department and are there at least two faculty members that you could foresee yourself working with. That should be the prime consideration of what schools you choose rather than simply rankings.
Why two? [10:36][KA] Well, at least two because one could be on sabbatical the fall that you arrive, and so then you have a backup. But yeah, at least two. Oftentimes, depending on how specific someone’s research focus is, they will only fine-tune.
[HG] I’ll flip that around. From the admissions committee perspective, it’s a red flag if an applicant only wants to work with one faculty member because that faculty member can leave or the student arrives and then they don’t get along. Then the program is left with a big issue of like, well, how do we find a home for this student? When it happens, it can be pretty traumatic. So they like somebody who has enough vision that they know people whom they’d like to work with, but it’s a group of them, so they’re flexible.
It’s not a monogamous relationship. [11:34][HG] Right. Also, the way departments are organized today is they tend to form research groups because that allows them to apply for special grants for those kinds of groups, and those can be quite lucrative. So it behooves the department to grow these groups and have three to five faculty members all working on a similar topic. Kind of environment makes for a nice research environment because then there are other students in other labs related to yours, and they can teach you techniques and you have journal clubs together, and so it can really improve beyond just the selection of your particular PI. It expands your opportunities.
We’ve kind of talked a little bit about the importance of research. What is enough research? What if you’re a second or third author? I mean, what are some of those factors? [HG] I’d say it’s significantly over a thousand hours of undergraduate research. Then sometimes, people will work in a lab or in the industry for a year or two after grad school, so that really adds to their research total.
What should be the role of rankings in selecting schools? [13:05][KA] I didn’t say they shouldn’t play a role, but I think the prime consideration is the research in the department and the faculty that you would choose to work with. Certainly, in terms of getting a good job in academia or industry, the higher ranked the school the better. However, there are many famous people in this country who came from state schools that aren’t particularly ranked, and yet they become really one of the most charismatic leaders of industry. I think it’s a factor but not one that you should dwell on.
[BR] Yeah, I would add that there are so many good PhD programs in the US. That’s one of the things that’s made us a really powerful country, is we have a huge research community. It’s sad to see a client apply to what they think are the top five schools and not get into any because they’re not applying broadly enough. There are so many opportunities out there and it’s less competitive at schools that are not supposedly high-ranked, but still extremely competent and have really good researchers.
[KA] When some of my clients say they’re not sure what schools to apply to, I’ll recommend thinking about the names that come up in the readings they’ve done as an undergrad and look up where those faculty came from.
Does it make a difference if an applicant sees their future in industry or in academia? Do PhD committees care in the STEM fields? [14:53][KA] It will depend on your faculty advisor, but there are some faculty who are very biased toward academia and want to push you to stay in academia. I think it’s important if you’re not sure if you want to stay in academia, that you find a mix of faculty in the department you’re targeting that have done both and are at least consulting with industry as part of their research. I think it’s in you as a person whether you feel like you’re an academic and want to teach and research or you have this yearning to create something new in industry to help society.
[BR] I picked up on the word teaching, that is an important part of applying. In many programs, part of your pay is as a teaching assistant. I think addressing your teaching skills or lack thereof in your personal statement is not a bad idea, especially if you’re enthusiastic about teaching. I think that would be appreciated.
[HG] There was a time when industry was a bad word. These days I think the vast majority of PhD students are going into industry.
So at this point, it’s not quite as bad a word? [16:30][HG] Not at all.
[BR] Because it’s so hard to get into academia. Years ago, I heard the statistic that of the PhDs graduating from UCSF, 25% were able to get into academia. That leaves 75%, a large number of well-trained PhDs, not getting into academia. So what Flash says it makes total sense.
[KA] We have to keep in mind that we’re talking about STEM. If we were talking about English or history PhDs, they don’t have as many choices to go into industry.
That’s a whole different kettle of fish. But in STEM, there are lots of opportunities for PhDs in STEM in this field. [17:09][KA] I’d like to talk about the statement of purpose because I know I have a lot of clients who apply, both domestically and internationally, but I think that there’s a tendency to think that your grades, and if you take a test, your tests and your work experience, what is going to get you into a school, and yet the essay is a critical component.
We’re going to get to the statement of purpose in a couple of minutes. But first, what’s the difference between going for the master’s first or going directly into a PhD program? [17:52][HG] I’ve been working with a number of clients recently who are in a position where it’s like, “Should I go straight for a PhD or should I do the master’s?” It’s really situation-dependent, as well as field-dependent. So some fields like neuroscience, there are no master’s programs. There are other fields, such as say cell biology, STEM cell sciences and stuff, where there are a lot of master’s programs, but many of them are for pre-med students. So if you’re interested in a PhD, you have to be able to find a program in your field which will allow you to work on say a research master’s, so that you can then use that as credentials to get the PhD.
You have to make sure that the master’s program requires some serious research. [19:19][HG] Right, so the opportunities to take that path may be quite limited. Why would you take that path? It’s for students who maybe discovered late in their undergraduate career that it’s like, oh, I really like research, but I haven’t done enough to get into a PhD program. Maybe I only did 250 hours. So there are two paths you can take. One is to try to get into a lab, starting out as a low level tech and then work your way up, and those opportunities vary. Then the other is to get into a master’s program where they offer the opportunity for a research master’s degree, so typically a two-year master’s, and that involves research and that allows you to establish the credentials that you perhaps didn’t develop as an undergraduate so that you can move on.
[BR] I would add that in those master’s programs that Flash is talking about, there’s usually a thesis involved as well. Also, from personal experience, people entering my graduate program, the one where I was a PhD student, with a master’s degree were definitely ahead of me – I went straight from undergrad — in terms of being prepared for the lab culture, and also had obviously more research experience. So there is an advantage definitely to taking a master’s program. It’s not the fastest way, but it might be the gentlest way to get into a research lab.
[KA] Two things. Not everybody who gets into the master’s program then decides to go on for the PhD, so having that mid-step sometimes is critical in your own career decision making. But I have had clients who’ve had a little research experience as an undergrad and they would like to apply directly to PhD, and I’ll recommend to apply to both PhD programs and master’s programs and see what happens.
I think the point is very well taken that sometimes having an interim step can be a really useful move. What if someone did poorly in undergrad and let’s say works for a few years, either in a lab or just in industry, and then they decide they want to return to school and pursue a PhD? Is it possible or have those poor undergrad grades killed their chances? [21:21][BR] I don’t think PhD programs worry about grades as much as say med schools and health profession schools, so they’re pretty forgiving. Again, I think the main test is: Do you show that you can think in your personal statement? Do you show that you can think in your interviews? I mean, having abysmal grades might be a red flag, but having say a 3.0 or above science GPA probably would be pretty forgivable.
[KA] I think in that case with low grades, the SOP becomes even more critical because you need to explain your story. What have you done since then and why are you seeking this PhD, and have you taken courses online?
[BR] I had a client who had pretty low undergraduate GPA and I asked them to take this simple online test that tried to understand their learning style. I thought they were a kinesthetic learner for sure, because they learned much more by doing than by sitting and listening or watching. This person took this little test, and sure enough, they scored super high in kinesthetic and low in auditory and visual. So we wove that into their personal statement so that there’s some rationale for them not doing well in lecture-type courses. But those people, kinesthetic learners, tend to do really well in lab courses and as lab workers.
Let’s turn to the statement of purpose since you all seem to be chomping at the bit to address that. What is the role of the statement of purpose in PhD admissions? [23:37][KA] I think it’s a very critical piece of the entire application because a resume is facts, a list of facts, but it doesn’t bring you alive. The SOP, you have a chance to not only talk about your accomplishments, but you’re talking about your goals. It’s a story that should make sense and should flow. You also can talk a little bit about your values and motivations. None of that is possible from a resume or even from letters of recommendation. You can get a little bit, but the SOP is where you have a chance to sell yourself and really show them who you are and where you’re headed and why this program is the most important program for you, because of what.
[BR] I think writing an SOP that’s multidimensional is good. In other words, if it’s only about why I want to go into research, yeah, that’s good, but it doesn’t have a lot of personal information. It’s good to give a little bit of background. Where are you coming from? What are your values? How much are you going to add to the cultural diversity of the program? Many schools now ask diversity questions.
That would be in addition to that statement of purpose, though, right? [25:15][BR] It can be, but not necessarily. So if the school does not have a diversity, a DEI question, then make sure your personal statement at least has a paragraph on it.
[HG] I’d like to make a distinction between a personal statement and a statement of purpose. It used to be that grad programs would say, “Oh, just send us five pages about yourself.” Then that’s evolved over time and some graduate programs now actually have separate boxes for the personal statement and the statement of purpose. The personal statement is, yeah, who are you? How did you get interested in science and what drives you and why do you even want a career in science? Then the statement of purpose is, okay, this is what I’ve done, this is why I did it. This is what I want to do next and this is what I want to do with my life.
So there are sort of two parts of the story, with the personal statement kind of being the more general earlier part and the statement of purpose being the later part. If they only ask for one, you can kind of combine the two, go back to the old style. It depends how much space you get and how specific their questions are. But I think in general, it pays to give a little bit of that motivational background as part of your story. But then I totally agree with what Karin was saying about explaining your path and making sense of your life. Where are you going and why are you doing that?
[KA] Flash, you’re using a keyword, why. The resume doesn’t tell why, but your statement of purpose should absolutely be the whys of every decision you’ve made. Then you have unique experiences. One of you mentioned funding and the importance of gaining funding. One of my clients was able to gain funding in a master’s program and mentioned that in the SOP. I thought that was great because if you were able to do that then, you’ll be able to do it in the future. So not everybody has that kind of opportunity, but what other opportunities have you had? As you always say, Linda, you want to fit in and stand out.
I once had a friend’s daughter ask for help with her statement of purpose, so I looked it over and I said, “Well, what do you want to do with the degree?” because I didn’t know after reading her statement of purpose. She says, “I don’t know.” Well, how do you intend to write a statement of purpose without having a purpose for your studies? It’s pretty difficult. It’s actually impossible because there is no purpose. So what is the purpose? You have to answer that question. I think those are topics that have to be addressed in the statement of purpose. One of the distinctions I make is that the statement of purpose is a more forward-looking document than the personal statement. The personal statement is how you got to this point. The statement of purpose should deal with your motivations for pursuing the purpose you have in mind. But it’s a more future-oriented document. [28:41][KA] The goals are really important because some of my clients come up with a very, very narrow goal, and I’ll keep pushing them to think about it more globally because I think these programs would like to see that their alumni are doing something worthwhile for the world. So somehow in your SOP, push yourself to think harder.
What is the role of funding in the application process, or does it come more once you’re accepted? [29:41][BR] Many STEM programs have federal funding, which tremendously helps the country build up a huge research community. I went to grad school, my tuition was covered and I got a small stipend. But if you go to a PhD program in English, I think it’s very unlikely you would have that kind of support. Now, that’s fine for US citizens and maybe green card holders, but if you’re an international applicant, you have a whole other situation where you’re competing against dozens of other international applicants, maybe for one spot that the department is willing to fund themselves. For many international applicants, there’s a place in the application where it says, “Where’s the money that you’re going to use for your tuition and living expenses? Get ready to put it in an escrow account.” So that’s a very different situation for international applicants.
What are some of the other distinctions for international applicants? [30:54][BR] I would say command of English, ability to express oneself coherently, slowly, articulating carefully.
[HG] If the university research that you’ve been involved with is very different from the American system, it can be difficult for the admissions committee to evaluate. I think the easiest ones are where somebody has worked in a lab, say in Japan, that’s collaborated with one of the faculty in the program that you’re applying to and that faculty member did a sabbatical in that lab. So there’s a connection and they understand what the student did and why it was significant and applicable to the program that they’re applying to. In the absence of that, it becomes very difficult. It’s like, okay, what did you really do? Like you were saying originally, Linda, were you slave labor in that lab? We just don’t know. Then oftentimes, it’s difficult to interpret other grading systems or even the contents of particular courses.
[KA] On the other hand, some of my best academically and experience-wise applicants have been international and they bring to the table a diversity that adds to the department and to their peers. So I would not discourage international students from applying. They absolutely make a program more diverse and more interesting.
They also bring their own experiences both in the lab and outside the lab, to whatever program they join. [32:39][HG] Labs are surprisingly multicultural and international. It’s wonderful to walk into a lab and see people from four or five different countries working together.
Who should applicants seek as recommenders? [33:03][HG] Definitely the undergraduate research PI. If that letter is absent, that’s a red flag.
What if they came from a master’s program, from their master’s advisor? [33:15][HG] Hopefully the same thing, that it’s somebody that they did research within the master’s program because that’s what the admissions committee wants to know. They want to know, what are your credentials for working in my lab?
[KA] I’ve had good applicants who had research experience in the industry and were able to use their industry supervisor, who often had a PhD.
[BR] It’s good to get an academic letter. Oftentimes you’re limited to two or three letters. With three letters, I would definitely include an academic letter from somebody who actually had you in more than one course and can speak to your intellectual talents.
Any advice for interview prep? I actually heard a story when my son graduated high school, there was an award given out by a certain woman in memory of her mother who was in the STEM fields in the 50s and 60s. She had a PhD. One day she was about to interview a PhD candidate, she was standing at a file cabinet putting something in the file cabinet and she happened to be obviously pregnant. The PhD candidate walked into her office, saw her standing, a young woman, pregnant, standing at the file cabinet, and said, “Could you get me a cup of coffee, please?” She said, “Sure, no problem.” She went and got two cups of coffee, one for herself, one for him, gave him the cup of coffee, and went around the desk and sat down and said, “Hello, I’m Dr. So-and-so, let’s start the interview.” Other than assuming that a female that you see is not the person going to interview you, what advice would you have for interview prep? [34:06][KA] Most interviews today are not in-person. They’re online. The advice I give to my clients is for most PhD interviews, from what my clients have told me, it really is a conversation and it’s not a grilling, because by that point they have a lot of information on you, and if they want an interview, it pretty much means they’re trying to make sure you’re the right fit for their program. The most important questions to be able to respond to is what draws you to this program? What are you going to contribute to our team? Really critical is what questions you have for them.
[BR] And be a good listener.
[KA] That good listening comes to the SOP too because you need to read the question, listen to the question, answer the question. I just had a client who sent me his essay, it had no connection to the prompts.
[HG] With Barry’s good listening, I think that also connects to asking good questions. I think the most effective PhD interview is when you’re listening to somebody and you can ask good questions about their research. That’s not something you can prepare, it’s on the spot.
It would also be advisable if you know who’s interviewing you maybe to read some of the recent research, wouldn’t it? [37:05][BR] Yes, definitely, and practice, practice, practice. You build confidence and then you’re less nervous and you can find your mistakes and correct them. If you don’t practice, then you are on more unfirm ground.
[KA] I always suggest to smile and laugh where appropriate, because they want to like you in the lab, and don’t be overly serious. It’s just as much your interview as their interview. You need to find out whether you feel comfortable in this lab and with this faculty member.
[BR] This may seem obvious, but some of the interviews are really long. They last all day, there’s a bunch of group presentations, etc. Do not turn off your camera. Again, it seems obvious, but it doesn’t look good if your camera’s off. Some folks are used to keeping their camera off in Zoom lectures, which is hard on the instructor, but in an interview, it really reflects badly on you to not have your camera on.
My son once had an interview where the interviewers turned their camera off. They wanted his camera on, and the interviewers’ was off. He completed the interview, but there was a headhunter involved and he just said, “I don’t want to work for that firm.” Any suggestions for re-applicants, other than this time around, get an Accepted consultant to assist you? [38:33][BR] Well, in the intervening year or two, get more research experience, have more publications, even presentations at meetings. Identify what the weak parts were in your application and address them. If it’s an interview, if you got to the interview stage, then you might really work hard on your interviewing skills.
[HG] I completely agree with that. I think the other thing you can do is to think about which school are the best fit for you. Because it may be that you applied to top-name programs or something, but it turns out that they’re not actually the top name in your field or they’re not really appropriate for you. So make sure you get the right fit.
What do you wish I would’ve asked you? What would you like to say at this point in terms of advice to PhD applicants? [39:53][HG] You asked all kinds of great questions. Mine’s not really an answer to a question, but something I wanted to add from a previous conversation here, which is that things are starting to loosen up in terms of in-person interviews. I’m having more and more clients right now flying in for in-person interviews. I think that it’s a good thing. It allows you as the applicant to better appreciate the program. It allows the faculty to say, “Oh, come visit my lab, meet my people.” That’s not something that’s easy to accomplish on Zoom. I think it works on both ends. They can do a better evaluation of you and you can evaluate them better.
[KA] I think that’s a really good point, and some of my clients have gone to the university on their own and actually met with Graduate Admissions Office staff and gotten to know them, and been able to talk to some students and sometimes even faculty. Then you have that much more to write in your SOP.
Do you recommend that if a student is particularly interested in a program and it’s not too difficult to get to the program, they go and visit the lab and program and talk to people? [41:21][KA] Absolutely.
Even if there is a Zoom interview? [41:35][KA] Yeah, because you gain information from talking to graduate students who are in the program.
Barry, what would you like to add? [41:45][BR] Well, I did answer my question, which was about international students. I think we covered that.
Karin, what do you wish I would’ve asked you today, or what would you like to say just as a closing comment? [41:58][KA] I think applying to graduate school, like everything else with your career, it’s an exploration. Try not to have set ideas up front. Keep your mind open to opportunities that present themselves along the way and research as much as you can before you start applying because you might be surprised at what you uncover.
[BR] I tell my clients, both the ones applying to health profession schools and PhD programs, the application process is transformative. It’s not just writing an English 101 essay. It’s taking stock of your life, seeing where you’re at and where you want to go, and you often discover things about yourself that you didn’t have time to think about while you were on the four-year conveyor belt of undergraduate school.
[KA] Yeah, and sometimes I’ll say in talking with a client, we’ll conclude that they’re better off waiting a year because they’re not ready and they need to gather more information before they can really make a competitive application.
Either to gather more information or have more experience or improve some aspect of their qualifications. Barry, I’ve quoted you many times in the context of medical school admissions, but I think it holds here too, sometimes the fastest way is slowly. [43:19][BR] Right, I don’t say “sometimes.”
Relevant Links:
- Fitting in and Standing Out: the Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, free guide
- Dr. Ash’s Bio and Contact Page
- Dr. Gordon’s Bio and Contact Page
- Dr. Rothman’s Bio Page and Contact page
Related shows:
- How to Write a Great Statement of Purpose, podcast Episode 473
- How This Student Got Accepted to MIT’s Engineering Program and Landed a Job at Apple, podcast Episode 460
- What to Know About Applying for a PhD in STEM, podcast Episode 410
- How to Get Into Cornell’s Master’s in Engineering Management, podcast Episode 351
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Don’t miss our Admissions Straight Talk podcast interview with Sara Vanos, the Executive Director of Marketing and Admissions for HEC Paris MBA Programs. Sara highlights the unique aspects of the full-time MBA program, such as the 16-month duration, on-campus housing, and flexibility in specialization and electives. She also mentions the New Horizons program, which focuses on anticipating trends and thinking creatively. Listen below or click the image to read the full transcript.
The HEC Paris MBA application essays – and there are many compared to most MBA applications these days –give the adcom a well-rounded view of you. They go beyond what you’ve done to capture how you think and respond, even how you imagine. Moreover, they require you to communicate complex thoughts and experiences succinctly. For the four shorter essays especially, don’t waste words on conventional introductory and concluding paragraphs. Jump right into your point or story and use straightforward sentences that avoid wordy constructions (e.g. “had the opportunity to”); don’t hesitate to use direct, declarative sentences. This writing approach has an added benefit: it conveys confidence.
Since there are several essays, I suggest first sketching out ideas for them all, then stepping back to assess how all these facets add up as a whole, and adjusting topics if/as necessary to avoid redundancy and ensure a well-rounded presentation that will make the adcom feel that they must invite you for an interview.
HEC Paris MBA application essaysHEC MBA essay #1Why are you applying to the HEC MBA Program now? What is the professional objective that will guide your career choice after your MBA, and how will the HEC MBA contribute to the achievement of this objective? (500 words maximum)
This is a traditional goals question with a couple of twists.
- First, the “why now” part should be explicitly addressed, even if it seems obvious. Briefly is fine – the essay overall should make this case ultimately.
- Second, the “professional objective” is essentially your long-term career vision. The question implies that this vision or goal will drive your preceding steps, so present your shorter-term goal(s) in that context: show how they pave the way for you to pursue and achieve your ultimate professional objective.
- Be brief but specific when discussing the HEC MBA – tie its program directly to achievement of your goals, and detail the 2-3 points about the program that are most meaningful to you.
Finally, connect the dots. This essay, well done, will convey how your goals grow organically from your experience and are achievable given your previous experience and an MBA from HEC.
HEC MBA essay #2What do you consider your most significant life achievement? (250 words maximum)
Most significant life achievement – Wow. It probably didn’t happen yesterday. And for many people it didn’t happen at work… Few work accomplishments rise to the level of MOST SIGNIFICANT LIFE ACHIEVEMENT. Imagine if, for example, you state that boosting your organization’s bottom-line (by whatever amount) is your greatest life achievement – the adcom might wonder about your values or whether you really have a life. Although, if you can say that at work you saved jobs or lessened negative environmental impacts or were instrumental in developing a new medical advancement, that would be more substantial and could possibly fit the bill.
For many people, this story will be personal – I think of clients who have persevered through, managed, and overcome major family crises. For others, it will involve impact with community, religious, and/or social organizations or groups; for yet others it could involve a major milestone such as a national sports ranking or photo exhibit or music performance.
Whatever topic you select, with only 250 words, simply narrate the story and include the results or impact. It would be fine to have a sentence or two of reflection on why it’s so meaningful to you, but don’t make a long explanation. The reason should be clear from the content.
HEC MBA essay #3Leadership and ethics are inevitably intertwined in the business world. Describe a situation in which you have dealt with these issues and how they have influenced you. (250 words maximum)
Again, keep the structure simple: tell the story, and end with a brief discussion of how the experience has influenced you. Don’t feel the need to present a very dramatic story – many such situations are gray, not black and white. It may seem like a challenge to identify an experience that encompasses both leadership and ethics. However, addressing an ethics challenge will almost inherently require leadership (even if informal), whether on your part or someone else’s. When you explain how it influenced you, don’t just state generalities; give a specific example.
HEC MBA essay #4Imagine a life entirely different from the one you now lead, what would it be? (250 words maximum)
This essay is an opportunity to show a different side of yourself. Describe an imagined life that reflects something meaningful to you. Make it vivid, show your passion. Note that the question does NOT ask what you would do if not in your current life/role; it asks you to imagine a life. Use that openness to express your creativity. In doing so, however, avoid being abstract. Weave in and employ your actual knowledge and experience, e.g., if you love ballet and are an avid ballet-goer, you could build your imagined life in a way that portrays your knowledge of and passion for dance. The reader would learn something interesting about you – and your prospective contribution to the social milieu of the program.
HEC MBA essay #5Please choose from one of the following essays: (250 words maximum)
a) What monument or site would you advise a first-time visitor to your country or city to discover, and why?
b) Certain books, movies or plays have had an international success that you believe to be undeserved. Choose an example and analyze it.
c) What figure do you most admire and why? You may choose from any field (arts, literature, politics, business, etc.).
All these options are equally good – choose the one that resonates most with you; the one that you want to answer. It’s another opportunity to showcase your interests and passions. The “why” part is key: avoid platitudes, be specific and present focused, fresh insights.
HEC MBA essay #6Is there any additional information you would like to share with us?(900 words max)
This question invites you to explain anything that needs explaining (e.g., gap in employment, choice of recommender, a bad grade, etc.) as well as to present new material that will enhance your application. If you choose to do the latter, make sure it’s a point that contributes to a clear and full picture of your candidacy. They give you a lot of words to work with; don’t think that you must use all 900!
HEC Paris at a glanceHEC MBA average GMAT score: 690
Class size (Class of 2021): 281
HEC MBA acceptance rate: 18.9%
You’ve worked so hard to get to this point in your journey. Now that you’re ready for your next achievement, make sure you know how to present yourself to maximum advantage in your SCHOOL NAME application. In a hotly competitive season, you’ll want a member of Team Accepted in your corner, guiding you with expertise tailored specifically for you. Check out our flexible consulting packages today!
HEC Paris remaining MBA application deadlines for Jan 2023 intake
| Application due | Decision received | | 1 June 2022 | 9 July 2022 | | 15 August 2022 | 17 September 2022 | | 15 September 2022 | 22 October 2022 | | 15 October 2022 | 19 November 2022 | | 15 November 2022 | 17 December 2022 |
*Application deadlines may be subject to change
** For non EU nationals, we encourage you to apply sooner due to housing and student visas
Source: HEC Paris website
*Disclaimer: Information is subject to change. Please check with individual programs to verify the essay questions, instructions and deadlines.*
For expert guidance with your HEC Paris MBA application, check out Accepted’s MBA Application Packages, which include comprehensive guidance from an experienced admissions consultant. We’ve helped hundreds of applicants get accepted to top MBA programs and look forward to helping you too!
How to Get into HEC Paris MBA? [Episode 565]Show SummaryAre you interested in an MBA program located in Europe, with a strong global and entrepreneurial flavor, a program that prides itself on flexibility and personalization? And would you love to complete your full-time MBA in just 16 months? Then HEC Paris may be just the ticket for you.
In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Linda Abraham interviews Sara Vanos, the Executive Director of Marketing and Admissions for HEC Paris MBA Programs. They discuss the MBA programs offered at HEC Paris. Sara highlights the unique aspects of the full-time MBA program, such as the 16-month duration, on-campus housing, and flexibility in specialization and electives. She also mentions the New Horizons program, which focuses on anticipating trends and thinking creatively. Sara emphasizes the importance of work experience, extracurricular activities, and language proficiency in the admissions process. She also addresses the use of AI tools like ChatGPT in essay writing and the relevance of an MBA degree in today’s world.
Show NotesWelcome to the 565th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive in those programs? Accepted’s MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it’s all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have, for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Sara Vanos, Executive Director of Marketing Admissions HEC Paris, MBA Programs. Sara started her career in higher education at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management, and in 2014 she moved to HEC Paris, starting out in their careers office. Since 2016, she has worked in marketing and recruitment. Sara became the Executive Director of Marketing and Admissions for HEC’s three MBA programs in April 2023, and she also earned her MBA at HEC in the executive MBA program.
Sara, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:54]Thank you so much, Linda. It’s a pleasure to be here today.
Can you start by just giving us a very high-level overview of HEC’s three MBA programs? [2:01]Sure, I’d be happy to. So we have our full-time MBA program, which is a 16-month program that can be residential. We have on-campus housing, or you can live off-campus. So that’s in our Jouy-en-Josas campus, which is quite close to Paris. You can do specialization, you can do electives, plus your core plus all kinds of other sorts of surprises and leadership activities. So that would be our full-time MBA.
Then we have our executive MBA. That can take anywhere from 15 to 21 months because it’s part-time. It’s either modular block, so you come on campus every two months, or you can do every other weekend in Paris. It’s typically for more senior professionals. So the average age is 40, usually with some management experience. And then we have anything from directors to CEOs to CFOs in that program. So very senior crowd. And then we have TRIUM, which is one of our flagship partnership programs. So it’s in partnership with LSE and also NYU. Even slightly more senior profiles that join that program. And it’s really exciting because it takes place in modules all over the world.
How long is that program? [3:17]That one is almost 20 months.
Let’s zoom in on the full-time MBA program’s more notable and distinctive elements. Can you describe them? You’ve hinted at them a little bit. By the way, I once visited HEC Paris and it’s absolutely beautiful. [3:26]I commute from Paris every day to go on campus, so it’s actually really easy to reach. And like you said, it’s beautiful. So it’s a wooded, private, acres of a forest, tennis courts, a chateau of its own, and of course, our other programs. But the one that we’ll zoom in on now is the MBA. So a beautiful campus with the possibility to live on campus, which is kind of interesting and different because a lot of MBA programs, you’re spread out everywhere. So we feel that having this on-campus housing really builds the community from day one because you’re with about 80% of the students living in our residential housing, you can easily attend club activities, and different community events, so you really foster that connection from day one.
If we start with the curriculum or notable things there, I think the 16 months is really unique. So typically, you’re looking at an MBA, “Where do I do it, how long, my ROI.” Et cetera. So we’ve kind of found the sweet spot. So you can either do 12 or 16 months, depending on your intake. So it can be a little shorter than the longer programs, but you get all the benefits of the longer programs. So electives, specialization, participation in our MBA Olympics, New Horizons, which is broadening your horizons and figuring out how to anticipate trends. So that’s unique.
We have a pretty smaller than I would say, some of the larger class sizes. So usually, an average of about 300 students come in two intakes. And you can start in September or January. So that’s also unique. I think if we say maybe one takeaway from these things I’ve kind of thrown out, there would be flexibility and customization. So I know that’s what a lot of people look for in their program. So whether it’s program length, how to sort of specialize what you take, so we have the specializations, which electives, where you live, if you live on campus, all of that really offers the flexibility to have a great experience.
You mentioned the New Horizons program. Could you tell us what that is? [5:38]So it’s a type of capstone, but it’s really tailored specifically to HEC Paris. So it’s relatively new in our curriculum. We always had a type of MBA project or capstone, but we’ve really refined this one. So when students come in, they’re challenged to come up with a strategic question, but then they have followings or courses or workshops through their MBA. There’s always a surprise visit. And the goal of New Horizons is to prepare you professionally, possibly have your question address something that will have your career sort of at heart, but it teaches you to anticipate trends and think about the what-ifs.
So it does that in different ways. For example, we have different improvisation workshops, so really hands-on how to react. We have workshops taught by consulting firms, so how to think like a consultant. And then we also have this kind of surprise visit. So every year the visit is changing. This year the students were surprised at 3:00 AM to visit a place called Rungis, which is where all of the fresh food produce comes in just outside Paris. So operationally, there are so many things to look at, especially because we’re receiving from countries all over the world and just how to scale, how to anticipate, how to think about it could be AI trends, it could be many different trends. So just addressing those in a real life place and then speaking about them in the following workshops. And it culminates with a project or a paper where you have to take your strategic ideas, challenge it, take all these workshops, put them into place, and then your final project, which can be used towards your professional career or starting your own company.
The interesting thing about the fruit and vegetable market is that it’s also so old. [7:17]It started in Paris a long time ago, and now it’s scaled quite a bit and moved out, but it’s just the most interesting place at such a scale to think about that and managing that and anticipating trends, and what if there’s a pandemic? How do you receive what happens next?
HEC’s program is a 16-month program with two possible intakes. What about the internship? Most MBA programs feel that the internship is very important, especially for career changers. What does HEC say about that? [7:45]So HEC and myself are very, very happy behind the internship. It can be very important step in someone’s career. Not necessarily, but we do offer that choice. So if someone joins in September, they do the MBA internship in the traditional timing, so it would be a summer internship. So there are different ways through the curriculum to prepare. That would be sort of similar to a two-year program where you have that gap in the summer, then you come back for your specialization and graduate early.
For January, it’s kind of interesting and cool because they can do a smaller summer internship, so a two-month internship in the summer, and then for their fourth term, they can choose to do a longer internship. In Paris, sometimes internships can be up to six months. So this allows them to do that kind of traditional French internship and/or they could go straight into full-time. So it’s quite flexible there as well. Shorter, longer internship and/or short internship. So many combinations. I think the hardest part is deciding and wrapping your head around which one is best for your career. Some of our students will choose to do other things in the summer instead of internships. Some will choose to learn French intensively. Some will choose to travel, some will choose to work on a startup or MBA project. But I would say about 80% of students will follow some kind of internship before they graduate.
What are the language requirements for entrance to HEC and for graduation? [9:20]To enter, you just have to be able to pass your TOEFL,or be a native English speaker, and have done a degree prior to that in English. So the entry requirements are quite easy. I think graduating becomes a little bit trickier because we expect you to learn at least one new language before you leave the program and at a level designed for your goals. So we have in-person French classes, which our students can take. They can, however, choose the level based on how far they want to go. So let’s say they know they want to work in France, they’ll choose something a bit more intensive. So they’ll evaluate their level before, and their classes will be very intense and directed at giving a certification at a level where they can work with a proficiency, versus other students might say, “Okay, I want to have a level of French to communicate, to get around Paris to enjoy, but I don’t necessarily need it to work.” So they could choose that level.
On top of that, we sometimes have students who will choose to follow an additional language. There are up to 14 available, some in person, and some through our language center. But for example, when I worked in careers, I had quite a few students who would learn German instead of French because they were targeting to work in Germany afterward. So you have a lot of choices there, and it’s all included in the tuition, and it’s kind of at the desire of the student based on where they want to go. And then, we complement that with what we think can help to their professional goals or personal goals.
Do you ever have students who, let’s say, are very good at a particular language and say they want that to be their second language so they really don’t have to learn a second language or third language would be the case? [10:48]Yes. Those ones have to learn a third language.
The basic requirement is that everyone needs to come out with a minimal, I think it’s a B1 level in an additional language. So we do have some students who come in speaking two languages. Most of our students, I think we looked and I think almost 90% of our students already come in with two. So they need a third. There are students with three already who need to learn a fourth. So we just want at least one new language at proficiency as part of the overall experience.
A very high percentage of students at HEC do not come from France. How does career placement work if they want to go back to their home country or they want to a country other than France? [11:27]I just looked at this stat this morning, and I think 74% of our students work outside of their home country, but in over 50 different countries. So we do have students coming who want to work in France or Europe or UK. So that’s happening. I think generally, about 50% of our class has placement in Europe or the UK. We do have a lot of students though, however, who want to experience a new geography or who want to return to their company. So we have sponsored students who return to their home company or we sometimes have students who want to go back to their home country. We also have double-degree students who do one year here and one year at a university in another country, so they have those double networks.
What I think is important is that we have alumni and even alumni chapters, but also sometimes alumni offices across different countries in the world. Our careers team works with companies that are global. Often they’ll work with a global office that will look at regional placements. So we do have connections, I would say, worldwide. There are places where we place more students. So I would say in Asia we have more. Also, the US. Last year we had a lot of placement across Latin America, specifically Mexico in consulting. So our careers team works globally, but sometimes they’ll chase opportunities based on the makeup or desire of the class because that seems to be ever-changing.
Years ago, everyone wanted to work in France. The last two years I think our students have been a bit more open based on opportunity. We’ve had a lot of placement for consulting firms in the Middle East as well. So sometimes MBB students are more geographically open. So again, we have the connections and we kind of have our plan, but then every year we make some tweaks to it with the careers team based on what our students are looking for.
What don’t people know about HEC Paris that you would like them to know? Are there any misconceptions you’d like to dispel, myths you’d like to bust, or just things that you think are unknown? [13:25]So I think one of the myths, perhaps is that you need French, that the classes are in French or that you need French to survive and thrive. We have lots of students every year who say, “It’s not important to me.” And they have a fantastic time, and you can get by and especially where our campus is and the surroundings and in Paris, it’s nice to have French, but it’s not important. So I think first off, to live in France, to even work in France, is a nice to have. It depends on what you want to do and where you want to go, but you don’t need it. And our courses outside of language classes are all in English. So I would say that’s a common myth.
What would I like people to know?
Maybe that you have kind of all of the things that you’d expect from an MBA, but then there are some very special things about HEC that are memorable and stand out that I would say, yeah, don’t exist everywhere. So first the specializations, that’s a four-month intensive themed kind of journey where you decide a specialization. So we can take entrepreneurship or we could take consulting or we could take finance. So you really do a deep dive there outside of the electives. So that’s really great. We have our MBA Olympics, which I think is a standout feature as well. So we host MBAs from around the world on our campus. I think it’s just a really special place, and you almost don’t know it until you talk to somebody who’s working there or studied there. It’s something that’s not very easy to communicate in words, but I think through fit, vibe, and community, you’ll feel at the moment, hopefully, that you talk to somebody who’s linked to HEC.
HEC requires a GMAT or the GRE. Any plans to accept the executive assessment or other tests? Are you considering introducing test waivers? [15:10]I love that you asked this. It’s a really timely question because I think in the last month or two months we’ve decided to accept the executive assessment. So we could take the GRE, the GMAT, or the executive assessment. I would say, as always, it’s a great idea to talk to our marketing and recruitment managers before you decide which test because they might be able to help you find the one that is the best fit for you. We have had a very low percentage recently as well of GMAT or GRE test waivers. That would be someone with a CFA level three, for example, someone with a really strong finance background paired with a strong English test or English university, et cetera. So it’s possible, but again, it’s a conversation where we look at holistically all of the elements that we would normally find in those tests. So it can happen. We have quite a bit of flexibility there. But I think it’s good to speak to a marketing and recruitment manager because it’s really specific to the person.
Sometimes it’s about the time and preparation you put into the test that helps you to prepare for this big step, be ready in courses, but also sort of mentally prepare, mentally prepare for studying again. I think there are a lot of benefits to the tests outside of just the score to get into a program.
The website says that HEC students have an average of six years of full-time work experience. Qualitatively, what makes for impressive work experience in your eyes? [16:47]Six years is the average. That’s just taking everyone. It’s really much wider because sometimes we have someone with, I would say usually two years would be the minimum. However, we have had once or twice someone with a little less than that. So we like to look at everyone individually. We examine, I’m in every jury, I hear about every single applicant from what they wrote in their essays to all of the things that we look at. So we do look at everything. Strong work experience is typically someone who has done something impressive or has shown a promotion or has a good motivation that matches what’s happening in their careers.
So we’ll look at the CV, we’ll look at the roles that the person has had. We’ll also look at their motivations alongside that, then we’ll look at their essays to understand a little bit more deeply, possibly their projects. A clear CV is always nice because sometimes, when there are many points and there’s a mumble jumble or a really crazy format, it’s harder for us to really assess the CV. But I would say usually career progression, interesting projects, and promotions. Sometimes brands can be interesting as well, but they’re not necessary. A really cool startup project can jump out. We’re looking for a diversity of professional backgrounds as well.
So sometimes we might have a pile of amazing investment banking CVs, but then we’ll have a designer or an architect, and that will really stand out to us. So we’re looking at everything. So not just what you think would be a perfect CV, we’re looking to add that professional diversity to the classroom and things that will really be interesting or that are interesting to employers. So if we talk about designers, it’s so interesting because in the last couple intakes, we’ve had some really cool or atypical profiles, and they’re the profiles that the companies that were recruiting we’re really looking at. So I would just say people don’t count themselves out because you have sometimes no idea what will jump out in the MBA world or what will be a success.
You mentioned a minute ago the MBA Tournament, which is one of HEC’s better known programs. It’s a three-day multi-sport competition. There have been 1,500 participants from 15 leading international business schools participating. I’m sure it’s an organizational challenge for the students. But that and HEC’s essay questions lead me to ask about the importance of non-professional, avocational interests or activities in your admissions process. Is that something that you are looking for? [18:56]We definitely assess extracurriculars. There’s a section where you can put any additional information. It’s important to us that people learn both in kind of traditional ways and non-traditional ways. So when you’re taking an MBA, we’re looking for you to learn in the classroom, but outside the classroom, that can be through clubs, social activities, and conversations. Sometimes we even look also at it can be travel or things that show that you’ve opened your mind. Not everyone would’ve had the chance to study or work abroad, but it could be something as simple as an extracurricular that’s global, or it could be working with business colleagues across countries. So we do look at that. We have a section where you’re able to share.
Again, you can be creative in some ways there. We don’t need you just to have volunteered at a food bank. That can be fantastic. But if you’ve volunteered in other ways, if you’ve made a committee at your work, if you have, again, started a company, if you have some kind of social purpose, or you’re involved in something within your community, I think any of those are good to share. Probably the more the merrier because some people, I think undervalue what they do, and then we see the line on their CV that says they’re like, I don’t know, a martial arts champion, but they didn’t add that into their actual application or a dance champion or somebody who’s a guitarist on YouTube. I don’t know. We see all kinds of interesting things, and sometimes we find that in the line in the CV, not in the application.
What do you look for besides stats? [21:13]We’ll start by looking at their CV. So that’s one of the criteria. We’ll look at the GMAT, GRE test. These are things that kind of all follow and complement each other. We look at previous academic backgrounds. So which school did you go to? What did you study? And again, we try to tie all of this back to motivation. So there’s a motivational paragraph where you get to explain what’s next, why an MBA. So we’re kind of trying to look holistically. As discussed, we look at extracurriculars. We also look at languages. So we think it can be interesting, even if you’ve just started to learn a language, if your goal is to work in France, it can be helpful if you’ve already started learning. It’s not necessary, but we do look at that in terms of, again, motivation, career desires and outcomes.
We look at the essays, so we read all of the essays, and then discuss them. So sometimes, things can jump out. Some of them are kind of creative. So I would say in there, depending on the essay topic, we’re looking for different things. The additional essay is something that maybe only 10 to 20% of students use, but it’s extremely interesting because it’s where you can add anything that we might not have known about you. And it’s often where we learn something extremely interesting. So I would say that’s something to look at.
Where we also evaluate, but it’s at a later stage, would be the interviews. So how did it go with your alumni interviewer? How did the alumni interviewer rate your presentation? Because you have to make a presentation. Communication skills and motivation, et cetera. I think those are all of the main buckets if I’m thinking through them. There’s none that’s weighted super heavily. They’re all kind of pairing together and matching together. And even if someone doesn’t have the perfect application, because we discuss each and every profile in a jury of several members, there are other things that can come into play. So for example, our marketing and recruitment managers try to have a call or meet everyone that comes in the program. So it can be very interesting because often they’ll add complementary information that can boost almost if somebody forgot something and the marketing recruitment manager knows, they can also talk about their conversation, talk about things like that. So I think that’s also somewhere that can add value.
Is there a conversation in addition to the interview, or are they one and the same? [23:30]The process is basically we evaluate the whole application. The marketing recruitment manager presents the file, we speak, and we all go there. Then we decide who moves to interviews. So from there, that stage, then they have two alumni interviews, and that’s where we leave the decision to our alumni. So that’s a bit almost scary because in my teams, we could say, “This is the perfect CV, this is the perfect profile.” Unfortunately, if they don’t make it with the two favorable comments from the interviewers, they can’t be admitted. So if both say no, we are like, “Oh no.” That has happened. It’s always unfortunate because if we move someone to interviews, we really believe in them, but we believe more in our graduates’ opinions of who will fit best at HEC and who will make HEC shine the most. So we send them off and let them have that final decision.
What if the interviewers don’t agree? [24:27]So if there’s two that don’t agree, which it’s more rare than you would think, if they don’t agree however, then it comes back. So we have a final, final jury, which involves people from our academic and delivery team, the dean, the careers team, and myself. It’s quite a large team. So that’s where we vet them all. If they all had a great application, they made it to interviews, it’s good, so we still check in case there are any flags that the larger community would like to discuss. That’s where we debate as a group. We read the comments, we look at the assessments of both interviewers, and we try to understand what the interviewer said, what that means, and how that ties back. So it’s kind of a final check and balance, and then the members of the final jury get to vote.
That’s quite a process. What do you want to learn from these essays? [25:30]What we’re looking for there depends on the question. So sometimes we’re looking at maybe an ethical dilemma or something that someone’s facing in their work, we’re looking for a genuine example. It’s not necessarily like, “Are you writing a poem? Are you a great writer?” It’s more about the content of the essay and what’s there, and is it genuine. Is there something interesting? Do they assess themselves? Do they have emotional intelligence? It’s hard to read all of this from an essay, but actually, you can get a lot more, I think, in these paragraphs than you would imagine based on the differences of the questions.
I don’t know, sometimes you can see that someone is a little bit creative when they describe where they might take you in their home city. You can see how they kind of struggled with the decision or how they turned it around. So we’re just trying to get to know the person because, until that point, we may or may not have met them. We want to get to know them over paper. So it’s not something that you can just say like, “Yes, no”, it’s a lot deeper than that, I think. So the more someone would share, I think the more we would be able to assess and get to know them and hopefully move them to the next round.
I also found it very interesting that the longest essay question, or the one with the highest word limit is optional. The required questions are around 200-250 words, right? [26:46]Yeah. They’re quite short. We’re looking for, usually, a couple of paragraphs, sometimes a little longer, depending on the person. Definitely, a word limit can be important because I think our longest CV was 24 pages. It was a researcher citing a lot of research.
For us that was just a little bit too long so we want to make sure that we find that sweet spot. Additional can go a lot longer because sometimes people use that to articulate various things for scholarships. So they might want to put additional information if they’re looking for a scholarship that we couldn’t have measured. Some people are telling us more about their life situation. So for the additional, we let it go. We haven’t had anything too, too long yet. And, like I said, not that many people use it, but it’s always quite valuable when they do.
Some people will use it to explain a GMAT score if it’s maybe lower than they would’ve hoped, other people will use it, for example, we have our Laidlaw scholarship, so that’s 100% funded tuition. So some of our female students will use that as a place to kind of indicate that they’re interested, and there they would have to express financial need and a little bit more information. So we kind of use that for everything for now. We’re changing to a new CRM relatively soon, wherein we’ll be able to break that down a bit more based on yes or no. So it’ll become more sophisticated shortly.
What’s the most common mistake that you see applicants making in the application process? [28:28]Yeah, it’s a funny one. Usually, we kind of let it go because it’s so common, but a lot of people will cut and paste essays and keep the other schools that they’re applying to. It’s okay because we know that they’re applying to multiple schools, but sometimes people will say, “I’m applying to HEC only.” And then they will cut and paste an essay in a CV where they cite another school. It’s the most common one. I think for the admissions team, we are rather used to it. We know that it can happen. We know, “Okay, it’s an oversight. Maybe the person is not super detail-oriented.”
But where it can have a larger impact is our alumni will have access to the application of the person who’s applied and moved into an interview round. So for I would say our alumni, it’s a more big mistake because they want people who are like diehard HEC, they want them to love HEC, to only be thinking about HEC. So common. Easy though, I think, for applicants to take a quick double-check, put a PDF of your application file, look the whole thing through, and just look for these very small but easy-to-fix things, I would say.
Yeah, this is one of the things that comes up repeatedly from admission directors. My suggestion for applicants is if you are adapting essays from another school, don’t cut and paste, number one. But if you are adapting essays from another school, when you start that process, not at the end, when you start, do a find and replace. That way, you will not miss it. You mentioned ChatGPT a few minutes ago. Are you concerned at all about it? [30:17]What’s quite interesting is recently we had a professor who gave an exam, and he allowed half the class to use ChatGPT, and he allowed half the class not to use it, and it turned out no one knew who did, who didn’t. And the professor, when they were marking the test, they didn’t know who had used it or who didn’t. The grading was much, much higher for those who did not use it. So A, I think that says something for now I think that you may lose creativity, and sometimes we know people did ChatGPT because of the format of the paragraphs or how they use emojis or kind of how they do things, it’s quite easy to know.
In the end, we are not going to ding anyone for it, but I think you might be doing yourself a disservice because A, you miss the thought that you put into the essays, which is just as important as what you write. I think the process of taking the time, finding your achievement, wording it, having that deep impact to how it comes across and how we’ll read it might or might not be more generic. I don’t know yet, and I’m sure chat GPT will get better. But for the moment, I don’t think it helps candidates that much. Maybe to formulate their ideas. But then I would still go back, and if you want the best essay, I think probably for now you’re still better than the robots. But we’re not too worried for the moment. We’ll kind of see what happens in the future. But again, we’re not looking at somebody who writes perfectly. We’re looking to understand the person, their ideas, their flow, et cetera. So if they have someone or a robot that helps them, it’s not the end of the world today.
What about applicants applying for your January 2025 intake or planning ahead for the September 2025 intake? What advice do you have for these two groups? [31:57]I think they kind of have a pleasure and a joy of planning because we see both the people who plan really early, especially when we go to fairs, for example, in Germany, they’re planning two years out, and then we see last minute applicants who are coming in one month. We like all of them, but I do think that there’s a joy in planning early because it allows you to kind of check the boxes, make a financial plan, figure out the funding, how you’re going to be able to pay for this, make a really good Excel. Because I think funding and understanding that is quite important, and sometimes it can be maybe overlooked or rushed. So I think it’s great because you can actually make, “I want to save X.” And how much your loan is for.
I think the other thing is that you have more time to perhaps visit schools, explore, maybe do that thing where you go on multiple campus visits across schools to assess fit, more time to get in touch with current students or alumni or the schools themselves. What I would probably look at for those candidates, too, schools are changing their curriculums, not rapidly, but I hope that they’re adapting every couple of years. So I guess it will be important to know how do schools adapt their curriculum? How might that impact you? How can you kind of anticipate what might be different in a couple of years? So those are some questions that could be interesting to ask. But otherwise, I would say just enjoy the ride, the joy, and all of the time you have to study, to plan. But don’t under or overestimate the amount of time and kind of ignore little things. Just use that time wisely so that you have, I guess, a pleasant journey where you can plan everything and you’re not rushed at the last moment.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [33:57]Maybe why or how is an MBA still relevant? Is it still relevant? Why is this the degree to follow maybe in today’s day and age? I think that’s something that people are kind of questioning.
Since the moment that I worked at Rotman, I have, and even before, real admiration for the MBA degree because I think it’s so versatile, and having had the pleasure of working careers, I have seen miraculous career jumps, changes, and not just career, but also personal. So if I look at a student who would come for coaching in year one versus two, the way that they’re challenged, the way that they’re trained to feel comfortable in the uncomfortable, the way that MBA programs teach a core but also teach you to anticipate trends, the way that you can holistically see marketing or finance or all of these buckets and how they work together, I think it’s incredible. For me, it’s still the most transformational, versatile degree. It opens doors that would most likely be closed or take you a lot longer to achieve. So I think that that’s probably the thing that you should know first. Why are you passionate about an MBA? And then for me, I truly believe in this degree before I did it, but since I did it, and with everything I’ve seen from careers to admissions and more.
I got my MBA a long time ago, and I did not pursue a traditional MBA path, and I don’t think I fully realized the benefit of the degree until maybe 15 years after I got it. But it still benefited me when I started Accepted. It has long-term value. [35:35]Yeah, that’s extremely important. You’re not just investing in something that’s for a couple of years, you’re investing in something for life. And I’m sure that there will be moments at two years, five years, 10 years, 20 beyond where you’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I remember that.” Or, “Oh, I can read that balance sheet.” Even though you haven’t used it.
Where can listeners and potential applicants learn more about HEC Paris’ MBA programs? [36:42]The first stop is probably the most obvious. So go on the HEC Paris MBA website. From there, there are two of buttons that you can click that might be a good place to start outside of the curriculum, et cetera.
One would be to connect with us. So I mentioned our marketing recruitment managers, they’re the loveliest people. They want to get to know you, and they’re really genuinely there to help you, get to know you. When I visit their offices, they know where someone they met two years ago is in the class or in which job, so it’s genuine.
Or we have a button that talks about our news stories or blogs, and it inspires me all the time. I also really like Instagram, but I won’t go too crazy because I like to dream about what’s next beyond just kind of the technical things in the brochure, and our stories allow you to dream about, I don’t know, a family that moved here together or at Christmas, there was all the Christmas lights of Paris and what you can enjoy, or a student story about where they did their internships. So I would say start by dreaming and connecting with us and then go deeper into the details.
Relevant Links:
- HEC Paris
- Are you ready? MBA Admissions Quiz
Relevant shows:
- Applying to Wharton Lauder? Do Your Research!, podcast Episode 465
- Get Accepted to UW’s Foster School of Business, podcast Episode 461
- How to Get Accepted to Oxford Said Business School, podcast Episode 457
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Show SummaryAre you planning to take the LSAT or the GRE before you apply to law school? Are you dreading it? Well, there’s a new option that includes a course and a test, and is accepted by 25% of all law schools. The JD-Next is an eight-week online course that simulates a real law school contracts class and trains students on the skills necessary to be successful in law school and as practicing attorneys. In this episode, Linda Abraham sits down with David Klieger, Program Director for JD-Next at Aspen Publishing to discuss the course that was developed to provide individuals with a preview of what law school is like before making the commitment, as well as to better prepare them for success in law school and possibly replace the LSAT and GRE.
Show NotesWelcome to the 562nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you preparing to apply to your dream law schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, take the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment of your chances, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it’s all free.
Let’s move on to our interview and fantastic guest. Our guest today is David Klieger, Program Director for JD-Next at Aspen Publishing. His work in admissions includes successfully leading efforts to make the JRE widely recognized for use by law schools. David practiced law after receiving his JD from the University of Pennsylvania with Carey Law School. He then earned his PhD in Industrial Organizational Psychology, specializing in psychometrics and statistics from the University of Minnesota. David has worked in the assessment and training field for more than 20 years. His published work has appeared in leading publications, such as Harvard Business Review, The International Journal of Testing, and the Journal of Applied Psychology. He’s given interviews to The Wall Street Journal and NPR about his work to innovate law school admissions. Of course, he’s just continuing to move up the ladder by joining us on Admissions Straight Talk.
David, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. I’m delighted to speak with you today, and again, congratulations on your new position with JD-Next. [2:09]Thank you very much, Linda. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Let’s start with a really basic question. What is JD-Next? [2:19]JD-Next is an innovative eight-week online asynchronous course which essentially simulates a real law school contracts class. In it, one is exposed to what a real law school class would be like. One is trained on the skills that are really important to being a successful law student, as well as a successful practicing attorney. At the end of the course, there is a final exam.
Why was it developed? Why have this pre-law school course, if you’re ultimately going to go to law school? [3:01]Well, the back story is multiple. First, there was a desire to provide a way of giving individuals a preview of what law school is going to be like before they make the actual commitment, which can be obviously quite expensive and time-consuming. Law school can be quite a stressful experience at times.
In addition, it was an opportunity to get people better prepared for success in law school. There actually is research that shows that, by participating in JD-Next, people will perform better in law school. It’s very important to perform well academically in law school because it’s really determinative of employment opportunities.
The other really important aspect of JD-Next is that there’s research that does show that the score gaps that you can see, in terms of different demographic groups, for other kinds of assessment, really you don’t see nearly to the same extent for JD-Next. It does actually provide equity and fairness in a way that’s rather innovative and unique.
When you talk about people taking the course and actually doing better in law school, is that a little bit better or a lot better? Do you have that kind of data? [4:26]It’s .2 of a grade point, which in law school, can make an actual significant difference in how prepared one is and how one looks to employers.
Are you talking about a lack of disparity among different ethnic groups of different socioeconomic groups in terms of the test and scores? [4:52]The research particularly looked at race and ethnicity and looked at the traditional majority group, vis-a-vis traditionally underrepresented groups. It was shown that, if there’s any difference in the average score across these groups, it’s smaller than what you otherwise tend to see in the admissions process.
It’s smaller than in the LSAT or the GRE? [5:24]It is smaller, based on the research.
Are there other benefits to JD-Next, as compared to the LSAT or GRE? Both to law schools and to law school applicants. There are other things that it does that the other two tests don’t do. [5:30]It’s a different type of product. It’s actually a preparation course for law school. It provides the preview benefit as well as the preparation benefit, which is really a different kind of product. There is a final exam at the end of the course, which can be used for making admissions decisions. But it is a different and more comprehensive kind of product.
Even if somebody is taking the LSAT or is required to take the LSAT, they may benefit from JD-Next because of its preparatory qualities, is that correct? [6:19]Correct.
From the law school admissions perspective, law schools have relied on the LSAT, and, more recently, on the GRE because of their predictive qualities. Can you talk about the predictability of the JD-Next, from an admissions perspective? [6:31]We have conducted that research, and it clearly shows that the final exam for JD-Next is just as predictive of success academically in law school.
Do schools get the actual score on JD-Next, or do they just get pass, fail, or something like that? [7:10]There is a specific score that’s provided.
Can you go into a little bit more about what is actually taught in the course? Is it taught legal reasoning, legal writing, analyzing cases, what? [7:23]There is a context here for what’s being taught. It’s a contracts law class. But you could argue that it could be a tortes class, it could be a civil procedure class. What JD-Next was originally intended to do, and it still does, is to teach those really important underlying skills that are important for success in law school, regardless of what the content area is.
It’s legal reasoning. The ability to provide an answer is what a lawyer would do. The ability to provide the breakdown of the case, to analyze a case, to remember the pertinent facts, to remember the holding of the case, the main conclusion of the case. To do what law students are really being trained to do. That makes them prepared to be successful attorneys.
There are actually 15 skills that the course is trying to give people expertise in that you can find on our website.
How much time does it take to complete the course? How long is the actual test? Is it a three-month course? What is it? [8:41]The course is eight weeks. The exam takes a little over three hours to complete, between three and four hours. That’s really key because that’s about as long as the average law school exam. If you’re going to try to prepare people for what the reality of law school is going to be like, it’s good to have that exam really simulate the length, as well as the content of what people are going to be expected to do.
Is the course weekly? Is it biweekly? Is it every night? Can you go into a little bit more detail on the course content? [9:17]It’s asynchronous, so you don’t have to necessarily do it on the same exact schedule as everyone else. But there are multiple activities every week across the eight weeks.
It sounds like the test is teaching various skills. Then, testing the skills. It’s not an aptitude test at all, really. [9:42]You really have to have those underlying skills, those analytical skills, to be able to do that successfully. Again, the idea is to try to teach generalizable skillsets, not just the content of contracts law to the people who are participating.
How’s the JD-Next test scored? I assume there’s a percentile score. Is there also a raw score? [10:15]There’s a scaled score, and then we provide percentiles as well.
What’s the pass rate for those who take the course? [10:27]We don’t consider it a pass, fail kind of deal. In the sense of a traditional standardized test, you don’t generally get a pass, fail, you just get a score.
What does JD-Next cost? [10:48]It’s $299.
It’s asynchronous, but it’s an eight-week course. I guess you have to complete it within the eight weeks, but when do you have to complete it within the eight weeks? Is it up to students? [10:56]You would need to be on a certain timetable to an extent, but it’s asynchronous. It’s not like you have to show up exactly at a certain time on a certain day for all of it, like you would with many traditional law school classes. It does provide flexibility that people would like.
But there are, I assume, benchmarks along the way that you have to meet? [11:26]Yeah.
When will JD-Next be offered in preparation for the 2024-25 application cycle? [11:35]On February 5th, the course was opened to people who want to participate. There will be three sessions. Those are shown on the JD-Next website. You can choose any of the three you’d like to participate in. There’s also a great amount of information, and background information there for any questions people may have.
How many people have taken the test already? [12:08]We’ve had several hundreds of participants in the high stakes use of the course. We also had a period of time prior to that, when people were participating outside of that high stakes context as well, when the course, the product was elsewhere. But it’s part of, in Aspen Publishing, in a high stakes context, we’ve seen many hundreds of individuals participate. We also see the interest rates on a steep increase as well.
What is a “high-stakes context”? Are you saying the interest is more from applicants or from schools? Or both? [12:44]Both. There’s a lot of interest from both. High stakes just basically means it’s being actually used and situated where the final exam could be used in making an admissions decision. Whereas previously, when the idea of JD-Next was first getting off the ground, the idea was just to get things running and going before the final exam would have that kind of use.
Was it originally designed as a law school prep course that went into an admissions function, or was it the other way around? [13:16]When JD-Next first came about, it was actually the result of a Bachelor of Law course that had been designed, and then it was repurposed and modified to be appropriate for this new context.
Do you have any tips for participants taking the JD-Next course? How can they make the most of it? Both from a law school preparation perspective and an admissions perspective. [13:50]I would recommend to anybody who’s interested in JD-Next that they really put their heart and soul into it. This is really important because you really want to know whether law school is for you or not for you, and you really want to be as prepared as possible if you do go on to law school. Because it really is a competitive environment, and being very knowledgeable and very skilled, it’s critical. It’s a high stakes profession, being a lawyer, so law school really tries to prepare students for that kind of profession.
I would also say take the final exam very seriously because not only does it give you a sense of how much you really learned in the course, but also it can tell you if this is the kind of thing you want to do. Because you’re going to get a lot of other exams down the road, if you do wind up going to law school, this is how people get evaluated. Also, there are law schools that are using the JD-Next final exam to make admissions decisions, so obviously, it has a high-stakes component to JD-Next as well.
Really, it’s really a major life decision, deciding whether or not you want to go on for legal education and getting into law school, so it really is an experience I would really just invest your time, your resources, and your heart into.
How many schools are accepting it now, and how many do you think will be accepting it or the 2024-25 application cycle? [15:32]There are 47 law schools that have received variance approval from the American Bar Association. That is currently the process for getting approval from the American Bar Association to use the JD-Next final exam to make admissions decisions.
Now, I would say that doesn’t mean that all 47 schools are necessarily, right now, currently using it to make admissions decisions. It’s up to the law schools independently to decide how they want to use JD-Next. But of course, JD-Next can be used also outside of that admissions context as well.
The exam is just one component of what is a larger, more comprehensive product.
What does the future hold for JD-Next? What’s in your crystal ball or your wish list? ABA approval, perhaps, for all law schools, or do you see it more in terms of marketing as a preparatory course? [16:23]Well, I don’t think there really inherently should be any limits on the product. I think that certainly law schools should be free to use JD-Next as they see best. I think that it can be an extraordinarily valuable tool for making admissions decisions. I think it also obviously has that great value of preparing applicants to be more successful law students. Then, it has that preview piece, which is particularly helpful to those who are not sure if law school is for them.
I think all of those value propositions are extremely important. I think, again, there are these pieces that can be used together synergistically, or it can be used independently, depending on the greatest benefit to the applicant and the greatest benefit to the institutions.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [17:29]Well, I think you asked a great question about how I see the long-term future of JD-Next and I can talk a little bit more about that.
I think JD-Next, right now, is trying to serve a very specific series of purposes, but perhaps one day, JD-Next will be covering other content areas with the goal of teaching those other content areas and not just the underlying skills. Then, there are skills beyond just the traditional skills that are important for being a successful law student or lawyer. There are motivational components. There are psychological components to being successful. There’s knowledge about the realities of law school that aren’t necessarily transparent. The realities of going on the job market, of the types of career paths people can seek. Also, it may be that JD-Next or the model might be used at other time points as well, to refresh people. Maybe students, they want to go back and independently brush up on a skill area, so maybe they could do that.
Right now, that’s not something that JD-Next is now doing, but it’s a thought for the long-term future. It’s a great model in the sense that people not only can see what they’re getting themselves into, prepare themselves, and also just know where they stand with that assessment at the end. I think that all provides value in so many different ways, across different skill areas, across different time points in the law student lifecycle.
It’s also very reasonable, in terms of the price. [19:11]We certainly think so. It’s far better to learn what law school is like and one’s preparedness for it, under a $299 price point than a $70,000 price point.
Right. The other thought that occurred to me when I first heard about JD-Next is there’s just a certain logic, as opposed to putting up a barrier that somebody has to jump over, to say, “Okay, let’s try and prepare you, and see if you can prepare yourself. This is what you really want to do, let’s help you prepare yourself for your chosen goal.” [19:52]I think the preparation piece for JD-Next is just an amazingly important innovation in helping people who are considering a law school experience and a legal career. I think that’s just critically important. A lot of people don’t necessarily know what they’re getting themselves into when they go down this pathway. They think they know what it’s going to be like, but they don’t necessarily. I think it’s just incredibly useful as a tool for both law schools and applicants.
I completely agree about testing out the legal field, if you will. Years ago, when I was considering graduate school, it was very common to hear, “Oh, my parents want me to go to law school because they consider it an excellent foundation.” Of course, it’s an excellent foundation – to practice law, but it’s not necessarily an excellent foundation for everything else in the world. I had some very unhappy friends with a lot of debt when they got out of law school. They had no desire to practice law, but they’d spent three years going to law school, largely in that case because, and I can think of several, parental pressure. If they’d had the opportunity to do something like JD-Next, they probably would have concluded it was not for them and done something that they would have liked more. It took them several years but they ultimately did find something, but it took them several years to do that. [20:55]I’ll also add that there was a survey conducted by the American Bar Association, which showed that some of the highest debt levels were being experienced by traditionally underrepresented groups. There’s that additional fairness, equity piece to being able to have that JD-Next experience, rather than finding out after being in law school, whether or not it’s a good fit.
Relevant Links:
- JD-Next
- Law School Admissions Quiz
Relevant shows:
- Navigating the Law School Admissions Process, podcast Episode 550
- Is the University of Texas School of Law for You?, podcast Episode 546
- Is Boston University Law for You?, podcast Episode 539
- All You Need to Know About the New, Shorter GRE, podcast Episode 531
- Rejection and Reapplication to Target Schools, podcast Episode 523
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Show SummaryAre you an engineer who wants to use your technical skills and move into an entrepreneurial or managerial role? Well, Duke’s Master of Engineering Management or MEM may be just the ticket for you, and it provides two options, on campus and online. The program has been around for over 25 years and aims to prepare engineers with business knowledge. Luis Morales, Executive Director of the program, shares more of what the program offers and how applicants can successfully present themselves.
Show NotesWelcome to the 564th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today’s interview, I want to mention a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you are applying to graduate engineering programs and that is Applying to Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know. It can guide you through a process you’ve never been through before. It’s not the same as applying to college. Download your complimentary copy at accepted.com/564download.
Our guest today is Luis Morales, Executive Director of the Master of Engineering Management Program at Duke University. Professor Morales earned his bachelor’s in electrical engineering from the University of Puerto Rico and his master’s of engineering from Cornell University. He then worked as an engineer and manager at AT&T and at Cisco before joining Duke as an executive in residence and adjunct associate professor at Duke’s Pratt School of Engineering, while also founding his own consulting company. He became the executive director of the MEM program in 2021 and also teaches three courses in that program.
Professor Morales, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:00]Thank you, Linda. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Can we start with an overview of the Master of Engineering Management program at Duke? Who is it for? What need is it intended to fill? [2:06]Absolutely. So the Duke MEM program has been around for more than 25 years. In fact, last year we were celebrating our 25th year anniversary, and as I look back at the charter of the program back then in 1997, the purpose was to prepare engineers with business knowledge. So the assessment, Linda, at the time was that we were preparing engineers for industry, for the global economy that did not have the necessary business knowledge. So they were not able to either get an impact, have an impact on the business side of companies right away so that’s exactly the need that we’re trying to satisfy.
And if you think back to if that was the need then, and you look at where we are now as technology has become so pervasive across so much of how we as a society generate value, engineering management, to me is the perfect solution because it combines, again, it builds on a base of technical knowledge, but then it builds business knowledge on top of that. So the basic structure of the program is eight courses, four of which are core, focus on management, people management, intellectual property management, marketing and finance. Then the other four are technical electives designed to basically sharpen your STEM, saw, whether it is product management, data science, software management, et cetera.
There are two versions of the MEM program. There’s the online and the in-residence. Can you go over how they’re structured? [4:40]Absolutely. So the campus program, as I mentioned before, has been around for more than 25 years. Our online offering is going to be 15 years in September. Yeah, the time flies. There are a lot of similarities between the two in terms of courses. The curriculum is the same, core courses, four electives, with some small exceptions, but the same instructors teach the core courses, teach the online sections. But then for the online course, Linda, what we do is that we replace the seminars and workshops that are included in the campus offering and we replace those with three weeks of residency where online students get to come to campus and then do their workshops, meet the faculty, and more importantly meet each other, meet fellow cohorts. So we do that before they begin their first semester. We do that halfway at the end of the first year of academic studies and then right before graduation. So those are the residency experiences.
Are there three residency experiences? [6:07]That’s right.
How long are they? [6:10]It’s one week. I know we’re not supposed to be sharing secrets here, but they’re one of the things that I consider to be the secret of success for our online program is precisely those residencies. We are lucky to have a professor who runs those residencies, La Tondra Murray, who is outstanding, and I think that helps keep the energy up during the residencies and after.
May I ask how many students are in each program and during the residencies? Do the in-residence and the online students get together? [6:51]So the residencies, the way we design it is for the third residency, the one right before graduation, that’s the only one where there is actually an overlap between when the campus students are here and the online students are here. For the other residencies, they happen during the summer. One is in July and the other one is in early August. So by design, there are very small sections. There’s very little structural overlap between the two. Initially we were mixing it up, but we learned that their profiles are different. So our online students obviously are working professionals. They tend to join us, I don’t know, 5, 6, 8 years after graduation from undergrad. Whereas our campus students tend to join us on average three years after graduation. So there’s a significant difference in maturity. So we keep the two communities separate.
Do you have people in the in-residence program that are coming straight from college or do they usually work for a little bit? [8:11]If we look at the distribution, I think there are three years, but students are allowed to join the campus program. They meet our admission requirements and we feel, Linda, if we were to change the program so that this only is dominated by fresh graduates, I think that we would be losing value if we were to do that.
So most of them have already worked a little bit. [8:48]Yeah, most of them. In fact, this is admission season, so we just had our first deadline on Monday of this week. And if you look at the applications at random, then you just say, “Okay, what is the story? Why Duke? Why now?” And it’s very consistent. Engineers graduated with mechanical engineering degree or what have you. They went on and started working in a company and then all of a sudden they saw someone in their space that they admire and they want to emulate, and they realized that that person has skills that they don’t have. And in most cases, they tend to be leadership skills or financial or marketing skills. So that’s what brings them back to school. That’s why they’re here.
What do you see as the most significant differences between the MEM and an MBA? Because there are definite similarities. [9:51]Oh, absolutely. So the way we look at it, let’s start with the MS because we live under the same roof, so to speak. With the school of engineering. We tend to encourage MS students,they tend to be individuals that are interested in pursuing research, or they may not have a line of sight to get to a Ph.D., but they’re very much interested in research type positions and opportunities in the industry. Whereas our MEM students are really interested in going back to the industry and working in roles as I mentioned before, product management, project management, more techno management roles, even on the engineering side of the companies but that’s the main difference between the two. So if we see somebody in their application, for example, tells me he or she is very much interested in research and that’s what they’re passionate about, we will encourage them to apply for an MS for a master’s.
As far as the MBA, there are similarities and there are some differences. I think as the MBA program has started to create this one, offerings like we have some here at Fuqua where we have MMS and other programs, some of the differences have become a blur. If you look at their curriculum, you will see obviously marketing, finance in some cases people management also will be there. Then we start diverging there because we start talking about intellectual property. And our approach to even finance and marketing is very much from a technology point of view. And then we have the electives, and our electives are different from the electives that you will get in an MBA program or a quant program. At the end of the day, Linda, we can make a case that, yes, an MEM student can make a choice of electives that will look very much like a MMS to some extent.
But then the main difference remains that your fellow students will all be engineers or scientists whereas the MBA will be a different profile, it’ll be a mix of different backgrounds. So I think that is the main difference and that resonates to me, Linda, given my background as an engineer, when if you and I get on that time machine and we go back to when I graduated from electrical engineering at Cornell, and you asked me, “Hey, Luis, what do you want to do after the next five years?” I would’ve told you, “Oh, Linda, I just want to be an individual contributor. I enjoy being an engineer.” I still do. That’s what brings joy to my life. But then at the time, I didn’t know that I have a passion for people that I later discovered. And it took me 10 years, so maybe I’m a slow mover, but it took me 10 years to discover the passion for people. So I shifted to a technical manager role.
I think another difference is length of time. The traditional MBA degree is a two-year degree. The MEM degree, even in-residence, is a one-year degree. I had a situation with our oldest daughter. At the time she was twenty-two, and our youngest daughter was sixteen. And our oldest daughter wanted to go for a master’s in not-for-profit management and my husband and I felt she should go for an MBA and just focus on not-for-profit management because an MBA is a much more flexible degree. And she didn’t want to hear it. She didn’t want to do the MBA. One day we had over one of our younger daughter’s friends, and she asked our older daughter, “What are your plans?” She said, “I want to go for a degree in not-for-profit management.” And she got accepted to some really top programs in that field and our daughter’s sixteen-year-old friend said to her, “Why aren’t you going for an MBA? It’s a much more flexible degree.” At which point she looked at us, like, “Did you pay her to say that?” I’m sure that some people listening to this are thinking, “Well, if I’m going to get the leadership skills and I’m going to get the business skills, and it’s going to complement my undergraduate training, wouldn’t I be better off getting an MBA and having the flexibility?” How would you respond to that concern? [13:42]That’s a fair question. I think the way I look at it is, we do offer flexibility, but I think it comes from our vantage point. So let me explain, we are catering to engineers and scientists or a STEM scientist or an engineer. Our audience is different. If you are a scientist or an engineer like me who was stupid back then, but if you use the word ‘sales’ and you say, “Hey, Luis, do you want to learn more about sales?” I would’ve said, “No, no, no, no. I want to be an engineer. Give me tech, right? Tech is what I want.” That’s what I want to do. So that is our constituency, Linda.
For them, what MEM does, it provides you that flexibility, right? It provides you a way of… I used to work at Cisco, one of my favorite executives there, he used to talk about squids and spaceships. So it’s a hard thing to follow, but the squids were these people who were focused on one thing and they knew it in depth. And then the spaceships were the individuals that can cover a lot of ground. And as an executive, he wanted everybody to be a spaceship because you could be deployed in multiple roles from the point of view of the company. But I think we make, build, and prepare squids with spaceship heads.
I love the metaphor. [16:55]We’re trying to build on the “squidness” that we all, engineers, bring to the table and broaden your perspective so that you can operate as a spaceship using my friend’s analogy.
I did my MBA many years ago, I have a social science and humanities background, and I remember some of the engineers in our program were bored with the math that we were doing. I was finding it quite challenging because I didn’t have a quantitative background. I noticed that the MEM focuses very much on professionalism and its five principles. Can you touch on what they are and their importance in the program? Often, programs will have some very nice sounding motto or mission or key principles, whatever you want to call them. And they sound great, but they’re not really ingrained in the program. So when you’re talking about them, how are these principles guiding you? How are they realized in the program? [17:20]Thank you for asking me the question by the way, because this is something I feel really, really strongly about. This is even before I became the director as a faculty, I was one of the main forces behind the development of this.
My motivation at the time when I started the dialogue at the faculty meetings was to… I said, “We come from industry, and in industry we have a very clear purpose.” There’s clarity of purpose from leadership. This is why we’re here. This is our vision, this is our mission, this is our strategy on how we accomplish our vision. So I felt like our program, despite the fact that we’ve been around for so long, we didn’t have that articulation. We clearly have a mission, as I mentioned before, preparing engineers with business knowledge, but we couldn’t articulate what do we stand for. So what happened was, and it was organic, Linda, at the faculty meetings, when I pitched this, “Okay, we should come up with a mission, a vision.” The team said, “You know what? I think it’s important for us to communicate to our prospective students and even to our students and prospective students, what are the areas of knowledge where we’re going to build core competence?”
So the initial intent was to articulate like a brand promise, Linda. If you come into this program, these are the areas of competency that you’re going to work on, and this is communication. We want to make sure that you can communicate effectively and you can communicate your ideas. I always tell my students if they’re unable to communicate their ideas, they could be the most creative person in the world, those ideas are trapped in their brains. Set them free by working on your communication skills. And in our classes and through co-curricular activities, we give students opportunities to work on their communication. Part of our Pratt master’s services team helps students with communication, particularly if English is not their first language. We help them improve their skills. The second one is teamwork. I think it goes without saying at this point in life that if you think that you’re just going to work by yourself in a lab, that’s not going to happen.
And companies will not put up with it. So we live in a world where you need to work in teams. So we talk about, particularly in our management class, Linda, we talk about how do you build a high-performing team? What are some of the characteristics of this? What are the five dysfunctions of a team? How do you have a difficult conversation? And so on and so forth. So that’s the teamwork piece. The other one is critical thinking, and it could be based on the demographics of our program. We have a lot of international students from India and from China. Sometimes faculty would see students that come with this expectation that there’s a recipe, Linda, tell me what the recipe is and I’ll follow it and I will have success in my life. And we said, “No, that’s not going to work. We need to equip you with the ability to make critical decisions when presented with multiple views of data.” And in many cases, and we’re living this through media today, it’s sometimes conflicting pieces of information. How do you deal with ambiguity? So that’s critical thinking.
Then the next one is ethics. And ethics is one that, to be honest, the students struggle with. So what does that mean? I am an honest person. I am kind. I do the right thing. So we have been putting a lot of focus on this, particularly around our data and data science areas. I was doing my own homework with your podcast, and I’ve heard some of the administrators talk about ChatGPT and how we’re using ChatGPT. To me, AI, if used correctly, which means we are all upfront. The students and faculty, we say we’re not afraid of it. We consider it a source of information. If we’re upfront with it, it’s fine. But for example, in my class, I teach a class on improving customer experience. How do we build a system to collect data that can help improve the customer experience? I talk to my students about making sure they consider data privacy concerns as you’re building the system because we say, “Okay, we’re building a system that improves the customer experience, but at what cost?” And you need to have that in the back of your mind that your decisions could impact the privacy of others and expose private information from others. And then last but not least, humanness. I think that’s my favorite principle, Linda.
And I think the way I would describe it to you is we actually went back to the Greek word of eudaimonia. I’m sure I’m pronouncing it incorrectly, but the feeling of flourishing. We’re trying to encourage our students to make use of all the gifts that God had given them, right? And put the effort to do introspection, understand what those gifts are, then make use of them for the betterment of society, but also help others do the same. So those are the five principles, and we reinforce them in class, in my communications as leader, and in every activity we have. In fact, we have awards in the program where we give out awards to students that embody these principles the most and it’s very much an element of our admissions process.
So you’re looking for people who identify with those values basically? [25:06]Yes.
Not just mouthing them, but demonstrating them. [25:12]Yes. That’s a very good point because I could go to Bard or ChatGPT and ask, “Tell me something about professionalism and the five principles,” and it would spew something out that sounds nice. But what we do in our application review, Linda, is we look for the holistic connecting the dots. So in your essays, in your resume, in your video, are you connecting those dots or it is just a one-time mention that you made of that? It has to be genuine and supported by facts.
Yeah. You don’t want your website spit back to you. That’s not very helpful. [25:57]Exactly.
You touched on experience or professional experience already. Is a GRE required? [26:08]No. We decided to re-evaluate the GRE during COVID and have been re-evaluating that every year. I made the decision to make it optional this year again. And part of it is because, we’re satisfied with the outcome of the quality of the applicants that we’re getting. We get a wider range of applicants, and we are still saying, if you want to submit the GRE, you can do it. And I think my ask is, students say, “But why would I do it if it is optional?” I say, “Well, if your GPA is not as good as you think it should be, or it could be, and you feel the GRE tells the story or helps you tell the story, then I would do it in that case.”
What else are you looking for in the admissions process? Obviously, good grades, I assume and an engineering or STEM background. Are you looking for leadership experience? Are you looking for extracurricular activities to show that somebody’s not just focused on engineering or just focused on STEM? Does that play a role? [27:09]Absolutely. The way I would articulate, so we have four criteria, Linda, that we use, and we consider them equally, actually, the equal weight. So the rubric, again has the four elements that are number one, academic, school quality. And what we’re looking for is that you graduated from a challenging or reputable academic institution that sets the bar high. Gets you ready to be a member of the Duke community. The second criteria is academic performance. So you went to that school, how did you do? Our average GPA ranges between 3.4 and 3.6. I think that’s where most of our students, so mostly A’s, a few B’s, in some cases there are C’s scattered, one or two C’s here and there.
But when we start seeing D’s and F’s, then we get discouraged. The other two criteria are, in my opinion, as important or maybe more important, the third criteria, we call it engagement. And what we’re looking for there, Linda, back to the point we were making before, is a demonstration of projection to society. So we are very clear here at Duke and our mission that we’re trying to prepare engineers that will impact the world and impact society for the better. So we want those engineers, those scientists that care about the community, that care about the world. So one of the criteria we look for is how engaged are you with the community.
It’s amazing how many applications I read of students that have a 4.0 GPA, and when you read it, Linda, it’s all about them and things that they’ve done for themselves and very little about how they’re using, again, the gifts that they have to help other people, and leader in sports or church or community or helping remove trash or whatever it is. I just want to see evidence that you really care about other people more than just you. So that’s engagement. And then the last one is fit. And that ties back to professionalism and defined principles. The way I look at it, Linda, is that we’re looking for engineers that believe in principle-based leadership, that when you say things like that, they are like, “Yeah, that makes sense.” Or “What the heck is that?” Right?
They roll their eyes. So what I’m looking for there, or what we’re looking for there is people that resonate to that, and they have demonstrated interest and there’s evidence that they believe in it. They act on it, whether it’s teamwork or critical thinking, or humanness. Some of the best applications I’ve seen are applicants talking about humanness and how they’re trying to help their community and, through that, live out their five principles.
That was very informative. What if an applicant is interested in attending the MEM? Maybe they didn’t graduate in engineering, but maybe they took a lot of biology classes or biological anthropology or something like that. It’s not hard STEM, but it’s getting close. Can he or she take specific classes to get the technical foundation that you expect? And what would those classes be? [30:56]Yeah, so for situations like that, what we recommend is that students take third-level calculus. Calculus 1, 2, 3, and then probability and statistics. And I think the third level calculus, it’s not that we’re going to be doing triple integrals in our program here, but it’s really more about you as a student feeling confident that you can be successful and you can hang around with your peers and don’t feel intimidated that you understand the concepts at that level, number one. And then probability and statistics is more about what we were talking about dealing with ambiguity. As engineers, we’re used to very precise things. Probability and statistics help us appreciate the fact that the world is not perfect, and there’s always randomness associated with it. I was teaching a class in data science, and I would always integrate probability and statistics into it because every outcome, every exercise that you do, you could characterize it as a random process to some extent.
Let’s turn to the short essays. The first question is, what is short? [33:01]It’s 1,500 characters, including space and punctuation. I think the reason why we make it so short is that we want students to put the time to think about what they want to say, number one. And number two, when they say it, they say it in a way that is somewhat concise and not rambling. But I would give you another secret, Linda.
I think if you’re an applicant out there and you’re interested in being part of our program, don’t shortchange yourself and try to use as much space as possible to tell your story. There’s nothing worse than us seeing people… A video essay is a part of our application and you see students that just spend less than a minute saying what they need to say when they have whatever, three minutes to say what they need to say. So more is more, not less. Because we’re trying to get to know you, and if you’re shortchanging us with your word, then it’s hard for us to make an assessment.
Can you give us some tips in terms of answering these three questions?Question A: We can learn about your past experience from your resume, but we’re interested in your plans. Why are you interested in pursuing the Master’s of Engineering Management degree from Duke University?Question B: Please choose one principle and explain how you plan to contribute in that way at Duke MEM and beyond. Question C: Does any elective track within the Duke MEM program fit your needs? If so, which one and why? If not, and understanding you’re free to change your mind later, those three to four electives within or outside MEM and how they will help you meet your career goals
Yeah. So for the first one, what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to understand your motivation. What is your motivation to be part of this program? And as I was telling you, this is where I hear the very similar story of I graduated, I wanted to be an engineer to fix airplanes or whatever, cars or buildings or whatever you want. But then I realized I was missing something and therefore, I decided to come to Duke. So that’s where you will see that so the first one gives us your motivation.
The second one speaks to remembering what we talk about fit and engagement to some extent. And then the third one, we’re really trying to get to your ability to do your homework. And it’s amazing how many students don’t even bother to look at the… Or I should say, applicants, don’t bother to do their homework, and that’s really a bad mark on you and bad reflection when we feel that you didn’t do your homework. I’m coming here to talk to you and you did your homework on me, and I did my homework on you, Linda.
You have an in-person interview that comes later, but you also have a video interview. Can you touch on that and why? [36:52]Yeah, so we’ve lived through the COVID pandemic where many people had to work remotely and operate remotely. So we all know that being able to see each other’s facial expressions and full spectrum of communication is important. So we look at the video as a way of delivering the complete story. So think of it as your written essays, your resume, your transcripts, your letters of recommendation are building blocks. And then the video is the opportunity to integrate all of that into one cohesive story. So that’s what we do. It is basically a way of telling the story. I enjoy listening to the videos, especially those that are successful in connecting the dots.
What can applicants invited to interview expect during their in-person interview? [38:11]One of my specialties in industry, Linda, was operations. I’m a quality management guy, so I’m in the engineering space so I would typically be part of the operations team. So I’m very good at productivity and structure and organization. So one of the things I did when I took over as the director of this program is I developed that rubric very clearly, articulated the four criteria that I just mentioned. Then I went on and hired readers that, using the rubric, evaluate applications as they come in. And we just went to our first milestone, Linda, I think we got 1,040 applications.
How many students are in the program again? [39:11]180.
So out of that number of applications, we have a number of readers, we call them. So the readers will provide a score or an assessment on their application on the basis of their rubric. And then those applications that are deemed to be strong enough that we feel that this person has a potential to be part of Duke MEM, then those get invited to an interview. Now, one of the things that we’re doing this year, Linda, that we have never done before is in the past, the interview was conducted by faculty staff here in our program. What we’re doing now this year is we have asked alumni to get involved in the interview process. So the assignment is somewhat, you can think of it as random. It’s not really, but you can think of it that way. And what happens during that interview is basically we just want to chat.
The alum have a chat with the applicant and what we’re asking applicants, and the best advice I could give applicants is to just be yourself. We’re trying to get to know you, get to know you. The heavy lifting or all the stuff, what you have accomplished, and all of that is in the application. We’re trying to get to know you as a person. So then we ask the alum to provide feedback on the applicant. That feedback comes to me. And then as part of the committee review, I decide on the offer admission or not.
During the in-person interview with the alum or the admission staff person, would they ask more questions, let’s say about how the applicant has handled particular situations or would handle particular situations? Are they going to be asking about decision points in the resume? Is the interview blind or have they reviewed the application? [41:02]It’s blind. In the past, before this alum involvement, it used to be more informed. So we would have exactly what you described, right? I will look at their application and say, “Hey, I had doubts about this, or I am curious about that.” But with the alums, we don’t share the applicant’s information. So it’s just, okay, I get the… Linda and I, we get to meet each other today, and then at the end I say, “Okay, I think Linda is wonderful”, or whatever. That’s really the process. So there’s no set agenda.
We just have a chat, get to know each other, answer a question. So I would encourage the applicants to use that time to ask questions. Right? That’s another way of getting people to know you by the questions that you ask.
What is a common mistake that you see applicants make in their applications? [42:23]I think the biggest mistake I see is that they maybe don’t follow instructions and they leave it for the last minute. And then the work product, if you will, is subpar. We just talked about the videos. Just delivering a one-minute video when you’re expected or allowed to do a three-minute video is a mistake. Remember, the goal here is we are trying to get to know you. So make use of the time and the resources that you’re given. And then pay attention to the details. Sometimes people answer the wrong questions and skip questions, and it’s so sad because sometimes we see people who seem to have the right potential, but then they squander the opportunity.
You also think of engineers as usually being very detail-oriented so it’s almost more glaring if they aren’t. [43:22]Yes. And in most cases, I think it’s because they’re rushing. They left it for the last minute, and then yeah, and we can’t help with that.
What question would you like to answer that I haven’t asked? What piece of information would you like to convey to listeners that we haven’t discussed? [43:45]Thank you for that one, Linda. I think the question I wish you would’ve asked, or I would like to share with you, is that even though we have been around for 25-plus years, we’re very much looking for ways to reinvent ourselves and build on what we do well and improve what we don’t. And I’ll give you a case in point. So during the first six months of my tenure here as director, we developed something we call our Vision 2027. And part of our Vision 2027 was to do precisely that, understand what is it that we’ve done that is working that our students and our alums are saying, “Yes, this is great faculty experiential feedback case-based learning, Duke.” What is it that is not working? So what they told us wasn’t working is that as the program had gotten bigger, we lost intimacy. So the students didn’t get to know, meet their cohort members. So what we did, we took a page out of the MBA playbook and we created something called the cohort model.
So basically, Linda, we took that 180 target of students inbound, and we broke it into four cohorts, each of the 45-ish students. And those students, we tried to curate so that there was a very diverse gender, country of origin, experience, what have you. And each cohort takes the same courses at the same time, the core courses anyway, the same time, and they get to know each other, build bonds between them very strongly. So that’s one thing that we rolled out this year, last fall. And then associated with that is something called the community building time, where we took three hours of our academic calendar or academic schedule every week, Tuesdays at noon, Thursdays at noon, and Fridays at noon and we say, we’ll have no classes during those three hours. And they’re dedicated to promoting faculty-student relationships, students-student relationships, and student-alum relationships. So we have programming that helps promote that. For example, today, Thursday, we have one of those events. So today’s event was a faculty-student luncheon that I pay for. The program pays for where faculty can take students out for lunch.
Relevant Links:
- Dukes’ Masters of Engineering Management (MEM)
- Applying to Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know
- How to Get Accepted to Graduate Engineering Programs
Related shows:
- Stanford’s MCiM Combines Technology, Healthcare, and Business, podcast Episode 548
- How to Get Accepted to Berkeley Haas’ Master of Financial Engineering Program, podcast Episode 540
- What’s New at Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management, podcast Episode 516
- CMU Tepper’s MS in Business Analytics: All You Need to Know, podcast Episode 510
- All You Need To Know When Applying To Graduate Engineering Programs, podcast Episode 486
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Show SummaryAre you a mid-career manager hoping to elevate your career to senior management? Do you feel your business skills could use a boost? Are you interested in a top, top program?
In this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Linda Abraham interviews Johanna Hising DiFabio, Assistant Dean of MIT Sloan’s Part-time and Full-time MBA Programs for Executives. They discuss the MIT Sloan Executive MBA program and the Sloan Fellows program, focusing on the application process and the unique aspects of each program. They also touch on the importance of innovation and the MIT ecosystem in these programs. Johanna provides tips for preparing a successful application. She also highlights the strong sense of community within both programs and the impact they have on developing principled, innovative leaders.
Show NotesWelcome to the 563rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Before I dive into today’s interview, I want to invite you to download Ace the EMBA: Expert Advice for the Rising Executive. This free guide will complement today’s podcast and give you suggestions on how to choose the right EMBA program for you, how to differentiate yourself from your competition in a positive way, and present yourself effectively as a future business leader who will bring credit to any program that accepts you.
Now we’re going to examine two fantastic options for mid-career, rising executives at MIT Sloan. MIT Sloan’s Executive MBA program has a more typical part-time MBA structure and the MIT Sloan Fellows program, which is a full-time immersive executive MBA program. We’re going to focus more on the more traditional one with our guest, Johanna Hising DiFabio, Assistant Dean of MIT’s Executive MBA and Sloan’s Fellows Programs. Johanna worked in business after earning her undergraduate degree from Ithaca College in 2000. She came to MIT Sloan as associate director of student life and learning in 2010, became director of MIT’s EMBA program in 2014, and added the Sloan Fellows program to her responsibilities in 2017, becoming assistant dean in 2018.
Johanna, welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:15]Linda, thank you for having me. I’m so excited to talk about my programs.
Can you start by providing an overview of both the MIT EMBA and the MIT Sloan Fellows program? [2:22]Absolutely. The Sloan Fellows MBA program is an over 90-year-old program. Often we talk about this as the first executive degree program that came to the US in the world. It’s a very exciting program to lead. It is over 70-ish percent international, so people move their lives. If they have families, they move their families and spend an entire year immersed, earning an MBA or an SM degree either in management or in management of technology. They’re a very tight-knit community. On the EMBA side, it’s 14 years old. I was part of the founding team of the EMBA.
That’s why I came to Sloan. As you shared, it’s a little longer. It’s 20 months, and we call it an executive schedule. Meaning that they come to campus every two to three Fridays and Saturdays. We have some executive modules to give them a little bit more immersion here at MIT every six months and they’re working full time. They’re learning and working. The expectation is that they all have some form of general management experience to both be able to tack on the learnings to their previous experience as well as when they go back to the workforce or on Monday go back to work are able to have the responsibility to actually use what they’re learning in their workplace.
You mentioned the MS and the MBA as an option. I think that was for the Sloan Fellows program, right? [3:51]Right.
What is the difference? [3:58]On the Sloan Fellows side, we sometimes have people who already have MBA degrees, so they’re looking for a different degree for that reason. But I would say most people get the MS degrees if they’re interested in doing a thesis and doing a deep dive into a particular topic. They have to do a thesis in order to get the MS.
The obvious difference between the two programs is that the EMBA is a part-time program and it takes longer, as you said. The Sloan Fellows program is full-time, immersive and in-residence. What are some of the additional elements that distinguish them? [4:20]The Sloan Fellows program has much more of an international community. Although a lot of our EMBAs are born outside of the US or have international experience that they can draw from. I think the biggest difference is that our Sloan Fellows program has the core in the summer. Then they have one core class in the fall and one core class in the spring, but are otherwise really able to create the curriculum and the learning experience that they’re hoping to get while they’re in this program. On the EMBA side, it’s what we call a lockstep curriculum. We’re basically telling them what core classes they will be taking. The benefit of the EMBA is that they’re working while they’re doing the degree. The curriculum is very much designed with that in mind.
It’s action learning. They’re applying what they’re learning in the classroom to their organization. That creates very quick feedback loops. Research also talks a little bit about what’s the time between learning something and then being able to apply it and that making the content more sticky. From that perspective, the EMBA has that benefit. Often people will ask me, “Jo, which one should I pick?” It really depends on their personal situation. Can they take a year off? Do they want to continue working? Do they want a general management degree? Or, on the Sloan Fellow side, do they want a general management degree but be able to go deeper in one particular area? There are still some electives on the EMBA side too. But not as many as on the Sloan Fellow side.
I assume they’re later in the program also? [6:09]Actually, we just finished four days of January executive electives. It’s when we invite not just our students but our alumni back to campus, and they get the opportunity to do electives. For our first-year EMBAs, that’s just three months after they started the program.
MIT is famous for its innovative culture and product results. How does this strong emphasis on innovation play out in each of the two programs? [6:32]We sometimes kid around that you shouldn’t drink the water in Cambridge because you’ll get bitten by the entrepreneurship bug or have some innovative idea. It’s really in everything that we do. It’s very much also if you think about who is attracted to MIT and who comes here, challenging the status quo. Wanting to make this world a better place is very much who the people are that come to my programs. But it’s, of course, also embedded in the content that they receive and the tools that they learn while they’re here. We teach them about entrepreneurship. The reason we think it’s so important is because in today’s world, where things are changing so quickly, we need to be agile. We need to learn from our customers quickly and adapt products and new businesses accordingly. Whether you’re an entrepreneur going out to do your own thing or within a large organization and are doing intrapreneurship, we think this is a really important skill and mindset that our students have as they go through the program. Well, and as they leave, of course.
Is it something that MIT consciously tries to nurture, develop, bring out, and increase in its students? Or is it something that you think students are going to bring to campus using their own innate talents to add to the curriculum? [7:53]I would say a little of both to be honest. What I always find so interesting about the students that come here, they’ve all been successful already in their own rights. In some cases, they’re coming here, yes, to learn general management, science, tools and frameworks. The reason to learn those sometimes is to make sure that their gut instincts so far have been on track. It’s as much confirming that what they’ve been doing in the past is the right way of doing it as it is learning new ways of doing whatever work it is that they’re doing. I would say it’s as much our students are coming in with an innovative mindset as it is us teaching new ways in the classroom.
Is sponsorship important? Is it recommended? Is it required? Or is it just a nice-to-have but strictly optional? [9:00]I think, Linda, you said it. From an admissions perspective, we don’t use whether someone is sponsored or not as part of our admissions criteria by any stretch of the imagination. We do think about sponsorship in two forms. There’s the financial aspect, and then there’s the time aspect. The financial aspect, actually, it’s completely… We don’t look at that as part of the admissions process. Though, of course, it alleviates a huge financial burden for the student.
On the time component, it is a requirement. If you’re a Sloan fellow, you have to be here for a year. We want your companies to release you of your day-to-day duties so that you can be fully immersed in your courses and the MIT ecosystem. On the EMBA side, we don’t want you to pretend to be sick or whatever it may be every second or third Friday. We want them to be engaged. Actually, because it’s such an action-learning curriculum, we want the companies to be excited about the opportunity for their employee to come to campus and experiment within their organization with what they’re learning.
You really need that kind of support. Also, from family. [10:29]Absolutely. Family is an important stakeholder. We want you to think about all the stakeholders you have in your world that we’ll need to pick up more things at home. You may need to step out of some of the volunteering work you’re doing while you’re in these programs. Yes, while they learn about stakeholder mapping and so forth in the program, we would like them to do some of that before they start.
You talked a minute ago about the MIT ecosystem and the MIT community, which is fantastic. Also, there’s the surrounding Cambridge community. How much mixing, if any, takes place among MIT Sloan MBA and MIT EMBA and the Sloan Fellow students or just regular MIT MBA students? [11:02]Yeah. We think of this place as one Sloan. We have a portfolio of programs, whether it’s pre-experience, the two-year MBA or my executive degree programs. We put effort into ensuring that they have some form of interaction, whether that’s the student life office putting on events that at times could make it possible for all of our students to go. That’s more on the social side. Of course, all the clubs are available to all of our students. That’s a way that they interact. Then we have a student senate, which is our student governing board, where all of our programs have representation, including my programs. Then, of course, it’s also in the classroom. Now, that’s perhaps a little bit less accessible to my EMBAs given that they’re working. But that doesn’t stop some of them from still going to class and taking electives with our full-time students, including some MIT students who may take some of our classes.
Let’s say I’m seriously considering applying to the Sloan Fellows program for the next cycle, which will start in summer 2025. What should I be doing now and next fall to prepare myself for a successful application? [12:37]Yeah. Great question. I think you want to really be thinking about why you’re doing this and what do you want to do with it, and plan accordingly. Start doing some research about what’s available at MIT. Start having conversations with maybe people in your community that have been through the program or been to MIT to better understand what it is that this program can do for you. Of course, having conversations with our admissions team or attending some of our recruiting events is something I highly recommend. Then you’re thinking about how do I get my life in order to move to Cambridge for a year, and how do I prepare myself for the academics of MIT?
English is not my first language, but for a lot of our students as well as our faculty, actually, English is not the first language. It’s important to be able to follow along with anyone who’s speaking, even someone with an accent. Because I think that’s actually the hardest part is when we have students in the classroom whose English is not their first language, and then the faculty members also don’t have English as their first language. That’s when the challenge actually comes in. Practicing English as much as possible and ensuring that you have a math background.
Now, let’s go through the different elements of the EMBA application. There are seven short essays, the employment history and a resume, three letters of recommendation, a transcript, and an organizational chart. What’s the purpose behind those things? [14:24]Sure. I will say that we’re constantly looking to improve our process, and so we actually increased the number of essays this year. But if you really dissect what we did is we took the statement of purpose, which is what we used to have, it was a 500 word essay, and actually moved it to four essays only asking for 100 words each. Why are we doing this? It’s because we want to be more transparent with our applicants as to what it is we’re trying to learn from them, as well as make it easier for our application readers and our interviewers to find the specific information that we’re looking for. The questions around general management experience, principled leadership, what goals do you have to come into this program? Why is now the right time for you to do the program? All of those are typically questions you would’ve answered in the statement of purpose. Now we’re just asking you to provide us with those in a very succinct way. That’s a little bit of the challenge. We want our students to really be honing that skill of being succinct.
Then the three other essays that we have leading in diversity, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and innovation and impact. Those are essays we’ve had in the past. We find that we get some really interesting… It aligns with our mission and aligns with what we’re trying to do in this program and what we’re hoping that students walk away with. That’s why we ask those essay questions. It’s all really about trying to understand what has your work trajectory been so far? What have you done in terms of leading others and leading innovation and challenging the status quo? We do that through understanding your employment history, having a resume, seeing an organizational chart, and having other people who know you professionally be able to recommendations providing us with insight into who you are as an individual and as a leader.
I think Mark Twain once said that he would’ve written a shorter letter but he didn’t have enough time. There is a challenge in being succinct. I’ve many times likened applications to jigsaw puzzles where you don’t want to duplicate information. You want it all to fit together and really present the picture of the applicants. [17:03]Absolutely.
The one thing that doesn’t quite fit for me is the organizational chart. MIT is one of the few, if not the only, program that asks for an organizational chart. What is the purpose of the organizational chart? What about people in very flat organizations? [17:42]Linda, I’m so glad you asked this. I was actually thinking about this recently because when I first came here, I came from the private sector. It was one of the things I asked to have included in applications after the first round. It’s since trickled into a lot of the other applications that we do. The reason we do it is because it gives us a sense of where they’re at in their organization. How far are they from the CEO? What titles do their peers have? Who reports to them? We would never make a decision on an individual solely based off an organizational chart.
But like you said earlier, this is all about creating a little bit more understanding of a piece of their puzzle. There’s also a place, I believe, for the organizational chart where they can explain a little bit what their organization is like. We have everything from entrepreneurs of very small organizations all the way to more than 100,000 people in an organization. We are very adept at understanding how to read an org chart. It’s another data point and a way for us to understand their scope of work.
What makes an application to the MIT Sloan EMBA program jump off the page in a positive way? [19:18]I reviewed a couple of applications a couple of weeks ago. The ones that really jump off the page are extremely passionate about the work that they do, the difference that they want to make in the world, how they think this degree is going to help them get there and are willing to show us who they are authentically and have some great stories. It’s clear that they’ve put a lot of work into this. There’s not one thing. Well, generic answers is not what we’re looking for.
Are you at all concerned about people using ChatGPT or its role in the application process? [20:13]The short answer is no. On the one hand, I would say admissions advisors have been around for a very long time. While I still in my heart believe that admissions advisors and the human is going to provide way better support for an individual. I think ChatGPT is a resource. Even as a school, we need to embrace it. Our EMBAs and our Sloan Fellows are very busy people who need to learn how to be more efficient at the work that they do. More is being unexpected of them, and so ChatGPT is a reality of the world that we live in today. Pretending like it’s not there or that people aren’t using it, I think, is not the wisest. We’re aware that it’s there, and actually we encourage students or applicants to be working with people who know them well to review their essays. It’s just another tool. It’s pretty obvious if someone’s just using ChatGPT and has not thought about it themselves. We’ve run all of the questions through ChatGPT to educate ourselves as to what it would say.
Other than abusing ChatGPT, what are some common mistakes that applicants make in their applications to MIT Sloan EMBA, and in this case, it could also be the Sloan Fellows program? [22:00]I think if an individual wants to do themselves a service and us a service, it is showing their true self and talking about their own experience. Don’t share what you think we want to hear. Share about experiences in your past and dreams that you have that are true to you. The biggest mistake that I’ve seen is this: trying to put on an air or trying to be something that they’re not. That comes through in an interview. Definitely, that would be one of the biggest faux pas that I’ve seen. I’ll also say, it still surprises me, but we get people who are not actually answering the question. I would go back to what I was saying a little bit earlier.
I highly recommend that people use the opportunity of these applications as a way to reflect on who they are, how have they come to where they are today, how have the experiences that they’ve had formed who they are today, and where do they want to go. Use this as a self-reflection and a self-awareness exercise. I always get really excited when I hear from someone who has said, “I really enjoyed the process. Whatever happens, I feel good about what happened. I put my best self forward.” But the exercise in doing the application felt very rewarding to the individual. I would encourage people to talk to people who know them well, whether it’s a significant other or a mentor.
I recently was reviewing an essay, and the applicant used one third of the essay to talk about his father. I thought, that’s not the right focus. It was nice. It was certainly lovely that he paid tribute to his father, but it wasn’t… The other essay was I think one third of general stuff about challenges in healthcare. Again, it wasn’t that it was wrong, but it wasn’t reflective of him other than the fact that he was interested in healthcare. It wasn’t personally revealing. It was the wrong focus. [23:47]Right. Linda, I think those are two great examples of ways to self-sabotage, to be honest. We want to get to know the individual. It’s less about what you know. That’s actually not what we’re trying to assess in the application process. It is who you are and whether our degree programs can help you get to where you want to go next.
What advice do you have for EMBA applicants preparing an application or starting to think about it? [25:27]In the year of 2024, I am committed to doing more journaling. Even in just these 18 days, I would say that my biggest recommendation is to download the essay questions and start journaling on them. Don’t try to create perfection off the bat, but let it percolate. The questions are not meant to be easy to answer. That’s not because we’re trying to make it hard, but it’s because we’re really trying to get to know you as an individual. I would really recommend that. Then I know I already said this and maybe I’m repeating myself too much, but having conversations with trusted advisors and close friends, I think is a really great way of ensuring that what is showing up on the paper is a true reflection of who you are. My recommendation would be to write it, send it to people and see what they… Or how would they answer this about you is another way to get feedback. As I said, a lot of people have found a lot of value and learned more about themselves in the process.
A lot of times people will write down, “I did this, this, and this,” but they don’t write why it’s important. If you’re going to be journaling, write what you learned from the experience, why you think it was important to journal about it. What was significant about it? Because again, sometimes people use examples and they don’t say why you should care about it. [26:53]Right. It’s such a great point. I co-facilitated a reflection session for the Sloan Fellows last week. One of the things that we talked about, as I shared I’m trying to do more journaling, they asked me am I doing the sharing what happened that day? Or is it different kind of journaling? Actually, it never crossed my mind to share what happened that day. That’s not actually even what I’m writing about. It’s more what are some of the thoughts that are running through my head. Like you said, why are those thoughts? How can I help process those, and who can I talk to?
What do you see coming down the pike for these two programs? Innovation is the middle name of MIT. I’m joking. But what’s coming that you can talk about? [27:53]I think that one thing to know about both of these programs and I think MIT in general, is that we’re always tinkering. We get a lot of feedback from faculty, students and staff to see what we need to adjust, what we can do better. Someone said, “But Jo, they’re already so great.” I said, “That’s right. I am very proud of both of these programs, and there’s always room to try something new.” I think one of the biggest interests that we’re trying to do more of is connecting more to MIT and ensure that our students are learning more about the new technology and the new science that’s coming out of this amazing institution. That’s one thing. We are continuously looking at how we can bring the Sloan fellows and the EMBAs together. We currently run an elective on Thursday evenings before Friday and Saturday classes. That is for both EMBAs and Sloan fellows, discovering your leadership signature, which has been really popular.
We’re doing another one on macro now in the spring. There’s a huge interest of these two populations to be spending more time together, and so we’re looking at that. I’ll also say that we’re trying to create more opportunities for Sloan and MIT students in general to interact. Then I just had a meeting with the Leadership Center yesterday, so maybe it’s top of mind. But how do we take more advantage of the team settings that the students are in? Why I find these so interesting, it’s the action learning of emotional intelligence and relationship building. How do we create a feedback loop for students to give each other better feedback? We already have mechanisms to do this in some ways. We have executive coaches who facilitate some of the team meetings to deepen the learning. But I think that’s also my background, but still very much something that I’m hoping and see a lot of value for our students to get more out of, so more on that.
What would you have liked me to ask you? What would you like to talk about that we haven’t discussed? [30:15]I think the one thing we haven’t really talked about for either program is how special the community is. It’s perhaps understandable for the Sloan Fellows when you move your lives here for a year you’re going through this experience together. It’s just such an amazing community. Whether it’s celebrating the highs or supporting each other through the lows, or just spending time together, getting to know the different cultures and seeing the kids become friends over the year. It’s just absolutely amazing. On the EMBA side, it is just as tight of a community. The students go through these courses together, and so they really get to know each other very deeply over the 20 months. Like I said, we just had four days worth of executive electives here last week, and the alums came back feeling like they were coming home. That has, of course, a very nice feeling associated with it.
But a lot of that comes from the learning community that they have and the community that they have with each other. I think that’s pretty special. Then of course, the other piece that I always want to talk about is how proud I am of my students and alums who are living our mission. Developing principled, innovative leaders who improve the world had many opportunities over the last week to talk to students who’ve come back and shared what they’re doing out there. Whether it’s something small or something big, always so gratifying to hear how these programs are making them better leaders, better general managers, and feeling a responsibility to make this world a better place.
Relevant Links:
- MIT Sloan Fellows
- MIT Executive MBA
- Ace the EMBA (accepted.com)
Related Shows:
- Stanford’s MCiM Combines Technology, Healthcare, and Business, podcast Episode 548
- Ace the Executive Assessment, podcast Episode 483
- The Only Online Ivy League Executive MBA Program, podcast Episode 490
- Why Is This Successful Leader Investing In an Oxford Said Executive MBA?, podcast Episode 454
- Encore: Cornell Johnson EMBA Program: Four Options for the Largest EMBA Program in the United States, podcast Episode 543
- MIT Sloan Fellow, User Experience Expert, and Busy Mom, podcast Episode 259
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Show SummaryWould you like to hear insight based on decades of experience, both advising applicants to a variety of healthcare programs and working in admissions offices for, again, many different healthcare programs? Well, today's episode is the ticket for you. Dr. Emil Chuck, Director of Advising Services for the Health Professional Student Association is our guest. He discusses the admissions process for healthcare programs. He shares his recommendation for networking, shadowing, and journaling as ways for applicants to gain insight into the healthcare field and develop critical thinking skills. He advises applicants to consider the mission and values of each school they apply to and to choose schools that align with their own goals and values. Dr. Chuck also emphasizes the importance of submitting applications early and being mindful of deadlines. He provides information about the Health Professional Student Association (HPSA) and Student Doctor Network (SDN) resources for applicants.Show NotesWelcome to the 561st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Do you know how to get accepted to medical school? Accepted does, and we share that knowledge and insight in our free guide, Med School Admissions: What You Need to Know to Get Accepted. Download your free copy at accepted.com/561download. I'm thrilled to introduce our guest, Dr. Emil Chuck. He is the Director of Advising Services for the Health Professional Student Association, which among other services and assets host the Student Doctor Network, a major resource for applicants to and students in the healthcare fields. Dr. Chuck earned his Bachelor's of Science in Engineering in Biomedical Engineering from Duke University and his PhD in Cell Biology from Case Western Reserve University.He began his career in research, but then moved into higher ed and admissions. Serving at different times student advisor and test prep teacher for Kaplan Test Prep, founding health Professionals Student Advisor for 5 years at George Mason University, Director of Admissions at Case Western’s School of Dental Medicine, admissions consultant for the ADEA, Director of Admissions and Recruitment at Rosalind Franklin University, and for the last two years as Director of Advising Services at the Health Professional Student Association or HPSA. On SDN’s forums he is known as the prolific, helpful, and extremely knowledgeable Mr.Smile12. In addition, he has also served in numerous volunteer roles for professional organizations.Dr. Chuck, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:29]Linda, it's a great pleasure to be part of your podcast and thank you so much for inviting me.Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Let's start with some really easy questions: your background, where you grew up, and how on earth you got interested in admissions from biomedical engineering. [2:39]I guess the stuff that's not on LinkedIn certainly is the earlier background about me. I'm proud to say that I'm a first-generation student. My parents immigrated from Hong Kong a couple of years before I was born. And so of all the places in the entire world where I guess in the United States where I would be born and raised for about 17 of my years before going to Duke was Shreveport, Louisiana, that's northwest Louisiana, not anywhere near New Orleans to just make sure people know. And basically I grew up in that city, that little small town in northwest Louisiana and now apparently the home district to our current speaker of the house. It's a little bit of a trivia note. I don't know him. That's one of the little known facts in terms of how it shaped my worldview one way or another. Obviously at the period of time when I was growing up, I was involved in a lot of research type projects and did science fairs, was involved in medical research at the medical school over there at LSU Shreveport before moving on to ultimately apply to all the various scho...
Show SummaryAre you a college junior or senior with an interest in business and a non-business major? Or perhaps you recently graduated and realized you need to boost your business knowledge to propel your career? Tune into this episode with Julia Hoffert, Director of Admissions & Recruitment of One-Year Master's Programs at the University of Michigan's Stephen M. Ross School of Business. Julia provides an overview of the program, including the curriculum, opportunities for international exposure, and job outcomes for graduates. She also discusses the application process, including the academic background and experience requirements, the essay questions, and the interview process. Julia highlights the resources available to students at Michigan Ross, such as the Ross Career Development Office, and emphasizes the fun, happening character of Ann Arbor, Michigan.Show NotesWelcome to the 560th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today's interview, I want to mention a resource at Accepted that can help you prepare your statement of purpose to a Master's in Management program or other graduate programs. Download Five Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Grad School Statement of Purpose to learn how to avoid the five most common mistakes we see in statements of purpose, as well as to gain tips on how to write a statement of purpose that makes your story memorable and highlight your qualifications for your target programs. Download this valuable and free resource at accepted.com/560download.Our guest today is Julia Hoffert, Director of Admissions & Recruitment of One-Year Master's Programs at the University of Michigan's Stephen M. Ross School of Business. Julia earned her Bachelor's and Master's degrees in Vocal Performance, which was one of the less common educational foundations for a career in higher education that I've come across. She moved into higher education administration at NYU with its educational theater program and then became Assistant Director of Admissions there at NYU. In 2012, she moved to Michigan, and in 2013, she became the recruiting director for U of Michigan's Master of Public Policy and Master of Public Administration programs. She has been in Admissions at the University of Michigan ever since. She became the Director of Admissions & Recruitment for Ross' One-Year Specialty Master's Programs in August 2023.Julia, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:15]Thank you, Linda. Thank you for having me.Let's start with a basic question. What is the Master of Management at Michigan Ross? Can you provide an overview of the program? [2:22]Absolutely. The Master of Management program is a 10-month program that is really designed to offer a very foundational business skillset for individuals who do not come from a business background from their undergraduate degree. On a very basic level, the type of people that we see that are the most interested in this type of program come from a variety of undergraduate programs and curriculums, but somewhere in the course of that time, they realize that they lack a certain skill set to add on top of their expertise from their undergraduate program, and they see the business skillset as something that would be a jumping point for them, whether that career be directly from what they did in their undergrad or perhaps even a pivot. But this program really is designed to offer that foundational business skillset that is so functionally useful.Can you discuss the structure of the program? [3:35]Within the curriculum, you will see elements of marketing, accounting, financial evaluation, and economics. It’s really sort of an overarching view of the business fundamentals that we would likely use in any scenario that we might be doing. We also have students have the opportunity to take elective credits, and that's where they can, in their own way, perhaps take advantage of some of the other areas of ...
Show SummaryRanked number three in U.S. News' most recent rankings, the law school at the University of Chicago is a top law school famous for its intellectual rigor. In this podcast episode, Linda Abraham interviews Dean Ann Perry, Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid at the University of Chicago Law School. Dean Perry discusses the distinctive elements of the law school, including its engaged student body, expert faculty, and interdisciplinary approach to legal study. She also provides insights into the admissions process, including tips for the personal statement. Show NotesAre you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs, be it the University of Chicago or any other program? Accepted's law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, take the quiz and you will not only get an assessment, but you'll receive tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. And it's all free. I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Ann Perry, Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid at the law school at the University of Chicago. Prior to joining the University of Chicago Law School community as assistant dean for Admissions in 2002, Dean Perry was the assistant dean for student affairs and financial aid at the University of Illinois College of Law. Before entering the world of law school administration, she was an associate at Stellato & Schwartz in Chicago. Dean Perry received her AB and JD from the University of Illinois. Dean Perry, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:00]Thank you very much, Linda. I'm happy to be here.Can you give an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Law School of the University of Chicago? [2:07]Yes, I'm happy to do that. I've been at the law school for over 20 years, and so what I find makes UChicago Law distinctive are a few things. First, it's our students. We bring very engaged students to the law school through the admissions process, students who are engaged in their learning, both inside and outside the classroom. And we're a small community, we only have a total JD enrollment of about 600 students. So really, it's an active, engaged learning community, so we bring these students that are just very much part of their learning process.Second, I'd like to highlight our faculty. Our faculty are experts in their fields, but also why they're here is because their first love is teaching. They really engage with students not just in the classroom, obviously, but outside the classroom. I constantly see that as I'm walking through the halls. It's not a mistake that all the faculty's offices are located in the library where students tend to study. Students will see their faculty members coming back and forth, it's generally an open-door policy, and the faculty want that engagement. But also, and the final point I'd like to make is that we're part of the University of Chicago, a great university that has a lot to offer, and it really helps foster the interdisciplinary approach to the study of law that we really find is important these days when you're learning the law.You mentioned the interdisciplinary approach, and that leads to my next question. The University of Chicago Law School has a real focus on the interdisciplinary approach to legal study. How is that manifested in the program practically? [3:35]That’s a great question because people talk about it a lot. Here at Chicago, we really live it, and it starts actually during your first year. We have a class that I think is unique to the University of Chicago Law School, our Elements of the Law class, which every first-year student takes as part of that first-year curriculum. And it is really the first introduction to the interdisciplinary approach to the study of law.
Show SummaryLet's learn about the newest medical school in the United States in this interview with Dr. Caleb Marsh, the Director of Recruitment and Pathway Programs of Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee. Not only that, but Frist is still accepting applications for its inaugural class matriculating this summer. In this conversation, Dr. Marsh details the program’s offerings and highlights the whole person approach at the core of the curriculum. He invites applicants to join on the exciting journey and play a part in shaping the program. Show NotesThanks for joining me for the 558th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Calculator Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance.I'm delighted to be speaking to Dr. Caleb Marsh, Director of Pathway Programs and Recruitment at the Thomas F. Frist, Jr. College of Medicine at Belmont University. Dr. Marsh has over 20 years of health professions administrative experience, having served as a health professions advisor and/or director at Baylor University, the University of Texas at Austin, Temple University, Southern Methodist University, and Temple University's CST post-baccalaureate pre-health program. He has a wealth of experience to share with us today.In addition to his extensive professional advising experience, Dr. Marsh most recently held roles on the National Association of Advisors to the Health Professions Technology Committee and served in a variety of leadership roles in pre-health professions advising organizations of different stripes and I guess geographies. Dr. Marsh, thanks for joining me today. I'm delighted to speak with you. [2:11]Thanks, Linda. I'm happy to be here.To start, can you give us an overview of the Frist College of Medicine's program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:17]Sure. One of the most distinctive parts of the program is that we're the newest medical school in the country. I think that's pretty distinctive. We’re right here in Nashville, which gives us an opportunity to really quite literally build things from the ground up physically in the space of this brand new, beautiful building that we're putting up here in Nashville, as well as building a brand new curriculum and building a brand new culture here. So I think those are all things that you'll never hear from us here at the Frist College of Medicine. That's the way we've always done it because we haven't ever done it a way before. So it's a really exciting opportunity.That certainly is. In terms of taking advantage of this newness, what are some of the ways that Frist is cutting a different path? [3:00]You'll hear us talk about the whole person approach to medicine a lot. It really shows itself in two ways. One of those ways is how we train our students to treat patients. To treat patients not just as a disease, not just as a symptom, but really as a whole person. Knowing that that sickness can cause other problems maybe in your family life or personally or you may be getting sick because of other reasons that may be something happening in your community or a number of things that could be going on in your life that aren't just the sickness or the disease. So we really want to train our doctors, our future doctors, be leaders in that. We want them to be diverse physician leaders, and we want them to be trained in ways that can help treat the whole person, a whole person approach.Also, that responsibility falls on us too in how we treat our students, knowing that our students are whole people and that they're not just robots that take tests and spit out grades, and they are people and they also have personal lives and things going on. And especially,
Show SummaryIn this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham looks back at her predictions for the 2023/2024 application cycle and offers advice for current and future applicants. She reflects on her previous predictions, such as the increase in test options and waivers and the continued use of rankings in admissions. She also makes new predictions for the upcoming year, including the increased use of video in applications and the continuation of questions about lived experiences and contributions to inclusive environments. Linda advises current applicants to pursue parallel tracks, prepare for interviews, and address weaknesses while also considering reapplication strategies. For future applicants, she emphasizes the importance of clarifying goals, researching programs, and preparing for tests. She encourages all applicants to start early and seek expert guidance to maximize their chances of acceptance.Show NotesWhat's coming down the pike in 2024 for applicants? How right or wrong was Linda Abraham with her predictions for the 2023/2024 cycle? What should applicants be doing now? We're diving into all that in this episode of Admissions Straight Talk.The academic world is at an inflection point [0:49]It's the second week of January, and the academic world is at an inflection point. It's not just the new year. Yes, 2024 just started. It's that the 2023-2024 application cycle is starting to wind down. As decisions come out, some people are admitted and some people are rejected, but it's also that a new crop of applicants is emerging for the 2024-2025 cycle. That cycle is starting to come into focus.At this inflection point, I'd like to examine some of my predictions for the 2023-2024 application cycle. I'm going to brave it again, and I'm going to make some additional predictions for the 2024-2025 application cycle, and finish the episode with suggestions and advice for current as well as new applicants.Now, if you feel that you are at a crossroads with your educational and professional journey and aren't quite sure which is the correct path for you to pursue, take advantage of Accepted's free consultation offer. You can have a free 30-minute call with one of Accepted's experienced admissions consultants. Just go to Accepted.com and click on Get Your Free Consultation in the upper right to have your free consultation.Were Linda’s predictions for the 2023-2024 cycle right? Now, let's start off today's show by exploring where I was right and where I was wrong in my predictions for the 2023-2024 application cycle. Prediction: More withdrawals from rankings [2:07]One of the things I predicted was more withdrawals from the rankings, which started in fall 2022. Med schools joined the ranking withdrawals, which I did not predict, and I didn't make any predictions about MBA programs, but I did say that US News will use publicly available data and continue to rank programs. That is exactly what has happened. Those rankings sell lots of magazines and online subscriptions. Rankings are not going to go away as long as they produce sales. That part of my prediction was 100% correct, and they won't go away as long as applicants, alumni, and recruiters continue to buy them, use them, and cite them constantly.Prediction: More experimentation with test options and waivers [2:57]I anticipated more experimentation with test options and waivers. In that, I was 100% right. I predicted more test options and waivers, except for medical schools, and indeed, that's exactly what's happened. Many, if not most, law schools now accept the GRE. Some accept other tests also. Most MBA programs accept the GMAT or GRE, and many also accept the executive assessment, and there was a switch over from the traditional GRE and GMAT to new versions of it, which are shorter. As I predicted, there has been very little change in connection with the MCAT and medical school.
Show SummaryIn this podcast episode, Linda Abraham discusses the use of ChatGPT in MBA application essays with admissions directors at top MBA programs. The admissions directors generally view ChatGPT as a tool that can be used to enhance the application process, but they emphasize the importance of authenticity and personal reflection in the essays. They caution against relying too heavily on ChatGPT and stress the need for applicants to take ownership of their ideas and experiences. The admissions directors also discuss the potential benefits and limitations of using ChatGPT and suggest ways in which it can be used effectively as a tool. Overall, they encourage applicants to use ChatGPT thoughtfully and responsibly, while still putting in the necessary effort to create thoughtful and authentic applicationsShow NotesChatGPT roared into our consciousness at the very end of last year, and I had the opportunity to ask several admissions directors what they thought about applicants using it. That's what we're going to discuss today.Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [0:46]Welcome to the 556th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for tuning in. Before I turn to the subject of today's show, I have a question for you. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted's MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Now, if you are a regular listener, you know that during most episodes of Admissions Straight Talk, I interview a guest, frequently an admissions director or dean. I also have many times asked these guests, "What do you think about applicants using ChatGPT or artificial intelligence when writing their application essays?" Today's episode is a collection of their answers to that question with a little commentary from me, but mostly it's admissions directors at top MBA programs, sharing what you need to know – the good, the bad, and the ugly – about using ChatGPT in writing your applications.In this episode, you're going to hear from:Clare Norton, Columbia Business School Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment ManagementShari Hubert, Associate Dean of Admissions at Duke University's Fuqua School of BusinessBlair Mannix, Executive Director of Graduate Admissions at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton SchoolEric Askins, Executive Director of Full-Time MB admissions at UC Berkeley HaasDean Robert Salomon, the inaugural Dean at Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi.I've asked this question of almost every admission director I've spoken to, so these responses represent a sample. And there is some difference, there's more differences on this one than on some other questions, but in any case, I think you'll see that there's cautious acceptance of ChatGPT, with several caveats and warnings for applicants.Clare Norton, Columbia Business School’s Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management. [2:43][CN] I think ChatGPT is a tool, and there are many, many tools that we have now that we did not once have. At some point in time we thought to ourselves, "If people use a calculator, will they understand math?" Yes, they do still understand math, and in fact, probably, probably higher level math than they understood before that was utilized broadly. And I suspect ChatGPT will be quite similar. We've made it very clear to students in our application process that it's a tool that can be utilized, but generative AI is not something that can write the whole answer. It's the kind of thing that could do some editing for you or provide you with some ideas to make sure that you've touched upon, but that the work must be your own. So from that perspective, I think we're quite clear.But also I think, actually back to what we were just talking about, the best applications are reflective, truly,
Show SummaryIn this episode of Admission Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham addresses the concerns of medical school applicants who have not yet received interview invitations. She debunks the myth that not receiving an invitation by Thanksgiving means rejection and shares insights from several admissions directors. She offers tips for both current med school applicants and those preparing for a reapplication. Show NotesWelcome to the 555th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. This episode is for those of you who applied this cycle to medical school and haven't received any interview invitations or at least haven't received an interview invitation from your top choice schools. We're also going to discuss a little bit about what you should be doing now – neither hitting a panic button nor just worrying and chewing your nails – which is preparing for the possibility of a reapplication.Before we dive in, I have two free resources that I'd like to invite you to take advantage of: The Ultimate Guide to Medical School Interview Success and Medical School Applicant Advice: 6 Tips For Success. Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:00]If you are a regular listener, you know that during most episodes of Admissions Straight Talk, I interview a guest. Occasionally I give a solo show, but usually I interview a guest and frequently that guest is an admissions directors. I also have many times asked guests who are med school admissions deans or directors, “When do you stop sending out interview invitations?” I started asking this question because many applicants believed incorrectly that if they don't have an interview invitation by Thanksgiving, they are toast. And here we are in the midst of the Christmas and New Year holidays, and if you haven't gotten the invitation by now, are you actually burnt toast? Well, let's hear what five admissions deans and directors have said in response to my question. The five are: Roshini Pinto-Powell, the Associate Dean for Admissions at Dartmouth Geisel School of MedicinePaul White, Assistant Dean for Admissions at Johns Hopkins School of MedicineDr. Kristen Goodell, Associate Dean of Admissions at BU's Chobanian and Avedisian School of MedicineDr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School at the Rosalind Franklin UniversityDr. Cynthia Boyd, Associate Dean for Admissions and Recruitment at Rush Medical CollegeToday's episode is a collection of their answers to that question, “When do you stop sending out interview invitations?” At the end there’s a little commentary from me, but mostly it's admissions directors and their own words. These are admissions directors at top medical programs sharing what you need to know about the interview invitation timeline. Dr. Roshini Pinto-Powell, Professor of Medicine and Medical Education and Associate Dean of Admissions at the Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth University. [4:20][RPP] So, our process is a rolling process. We do rolling admissions and we continue to send out invitations well into March. And similarly with the waitlist, that's another thing that people worry about. This is a long process, which is why I said I feel sorry for our candidates. It's a long year. It's a long year.Paul White, Assistant Dean for Admissions at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. [5:09][PW] Well, when it was in person, the last date would be around the first week of February. With virtual interviews, we literally sometimes invite people three or four days before the interview. I would say at least a week before is ideal.Mid-February to late February, certainly not the day before. Yeah, we want to give a heads-up, but when it was in person because of travel in February, we always did minimally two weeks in advance.The reason I asked this question is because there's this meme out there that if you don't have an interview invitation by T...
Show SummaryWhat are the pre-med competencies? And if you're pre-med and planning to apply in September 2024, what do they mean to you? That's the subject of this week’s podcast of Admissions Straight Talk, as Linda Abraham and Dr. Valerie Wherley, an Accepted consultant, dive into pre-med competencies. Dr. Wherley gives an overview of the 17 competencies identified by the AAMC as essential for success in medical school and beyond. She leans into her expertises as an Assistant Dean, medical school program director, and advisor to present practical tips on how to develop these traits and demonstrate them in an application. Show NotesOur guest today is Dr. Valerie Wherley, an Accepted consultant. Dr. Wherley earned her B.S. and M.S. at the University of Maine in kinesiology, and her PhD in higher education and higher education administration from the University of Connecticut. Over the last 20 years, she has served as the Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, Director of Pre-Health Post-Bacc Certificate program at Sacred Heart University, and the Director of Pre-Health Advisement at Sacred Heart University.In those roles, and before joining Accepted in 2022, she advised thousands of students in the following pre-health tracks: pre-med, pre-PPA, pre-vet, pre-dental, pre-pharmacy, pre-PT, pre-OT, pre-accelerated nursing, and pre-optometry, as well as applicants to master's programs in exercise science, biomedical sciences, occupational therapy, speech language pathology, athletic training, public health, and applied nutrition.Today we're going to focus on med school admissions, and specifically the AAMC's recently updated pre-med competencies for entering medical students. Dr. Wherley, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:21]Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.I’m delighted to have you joining me. Now, let's start with the basics. What is a pre-med competency? What's the goal of them? [2:27]Sure. Where I thought that we would start is just looking at the word competency. The National Institutes of Health, or the NIH, define competencies as the following: "Competencies are the knowledge, skills, abilities and behaviors that contribute to individual and organizational performance." So, if we keep that word in mind, that helps inform our conversation.Pre-med competencies are now a list of 17 standards that have been identified by the AAMC and others, which I can talk about in a minute, as essential for success for entering medical students, and also people who are going to be practicing medicine in the future. So, it's not just for students in medical education, but our future practitioners.So that's the conceptual framework for the competencies. [3:35]Right.Let's discuss a little bit more in depth. Do you want to focus on some particular ones? I'll let you take the lead here. [3:41]Sure. I can give an overview. The competencies are grouped in three categories, and then within the categories there are specifics. With those specifics there are sort of a deep dive into the definitions. So, without getting too far into the weeds, let's look at the categories, and then maybe the specifics.The three categories are the professional competencies, which has the biggest list now, and then there's thinking and reasoning competencies, and then science competencies. If I start backwards, the thinking and reasoning competencies, that's one category, and the science competencies actually did not get updated in the update that we will talk about. It's the professional competencies that underwent the update.So, I'll start with science competencies. There are two specifics within that category. There's human behavior and living systems, and you can look at the specific definition of both of those. Thinking and reasoning competencies include the following: critical thinking, quantitative reasoning,
Show SummaryCarnegie Mellon University's Tepper School of Business is welcoming a newly launched Masters of Science in Management (MSM) program. The one-year program is designed for early-career professionals with zero to two years of work experience who are looking for a career pivot or to gain business skills. If that sounds interesting to you, you don’t want to miss this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, where Linda Abraham sits down with Dr. Kevin Dietrick, director of the MS in Business Analytics and MS in Management Program to learn more about the program and how to get in. Show NotesAre you a college junior or senior with an interest in business and a non-business major? Or maybe you've graduated already and you feel like you need to boost your knowledge of business to propel your career and have a life of impact and consequence. Today's show is with the director of Carnegie Mellon Tepper's brand new Masters of Management. Let's learn all about it, because it might just be the program for you.Welcome to the 553rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today's interview, I want to mention a resource at Accepted that can help you prepare your statement of purpose to a Master's in Management program or other graduate programs. Download Five Fatal Flaws To Avoid In Your Grad School Statement of Purpose to learn how to avoid the five most common mistakes that we see in grad school statements of purpose, as well as tips on how to write a statement of purpose that makes your story memorable and highlights your qualifications for your target program. Our guest today is Dr. Kevin Dietrick, Director of the MS in Business Analytics and MS in Management Program at Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper School of Business. Dr. Dietrick attended Allegheny College as an undergrad and earned his master's in education and his PhD in Higher Education and Higher Education Administration from the University of Pittsburgh. He has been working in higher ed for most of the last 12 years. He came to CMU Tepper in 2018 as senior associate director of student services and became the director of the MS in Business Analytics in August and the director of the MS in Management last month. Dr. Dietrick, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk and congratulations on those positions. [2:12]Thank you, Linda. Thanks for the introduction. Thanks for having me.My pleasure. Now let's start with a really basic question. What is the MS in Management at CMU Tepper and who is it for? [2:16]That's a really excellent question and I think a good place for us to start today. The new MS in Management – we just launched it a couple of months ago – is a new venture that we have here at Tepper that falls into what I think is a suite of master's degree programs offered through Tepper. It is a one-year business degree, and to the question of who is it for, it is for folks who are early on in their career. So we talk a lot about pre-experience. That's not necessarily exclusive. It doesn't mean you have to have zero experience, but generally, zero to two years of work experience is the type of student that you'll find in this program starting. Very exciting, the fall of 2024.So what that person looks like, and I know we're going to dig into a little bit of that today, but just to give you a little bit of a sense of what we're anticipating and frankly what we're searching for. I think this is a really neat opportunity for folks who maybe are looking for an early career pivot. And so, I think that looks and manifests in a couple of different ways. It might be simply that what I studied in college, I don't actually want to do. Maybe I was a computer science major, maybe I was an engineering major, and maybe I'm just looking for a little bit of a pivot and determining, you know what, I don't want to be a programmer. I don't want to work as a software engineer.
Show SummaryIn this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Linda Abraham discusses MBA return on investment (ROI) and NYU Stern's part-time MBA options with Isser Gallogly, Associate Dean of MBA Admissions at NYU Stern School of Business. They discuss how to calculate ROI, the ROI of NYU Stern's part-time MBA program, and the benefits and flexibility of the program. Isser Gallogly also provides tips for applicants and encourages them to create options for themselves by applying to the program.Show NotesAre you concerned about possible lack of ROI if you go for an MBA? Are you considering part-time options? Then today's episode is for you. We're discussing MBA ROI and NYU Stern’s four part-time MBA options.Welcome to the 552nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Sometimes I'm asked, "Is the MBA worth it?" And my answer always is, “It depends on your individual circumstances”, but I've got good news. We've developed a tool that will help you evaluate whether an MBA is worth it for you and your individual circumstances, and by how much. Use Accepted's MBA ROI Calculator and check out how much you are likely to benefit or not from getting an MBA. And using it won't send you back even one cent because it's free.We're going to dive more into the topic of MBA ROI today with our special guest. It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk, Isser Gallogly, associate dean of MBA admissions at NYU Stern School of Business. Isser has been involved in MBA admissions at NYU Stern for the last 20 years, and I've probably known you for about 20 years since you started there. Today we're going to talk about MBA, return on investment or ROI, and specifically the ROI provided by Stern's part-time MBA program and then how to get into that program. Isser, welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:53]Great to be here. Thank you.I'm delighted to speak with you today, as always. I want to start by discussing the topic of MBA ROI or return on investment. Since our listeners have not yet earned their MBA, maybe we should start by discussing how to calculate ROI. What is it? I mean, I've seen lots of definitions, not all of which I agree with.Yeah, there are a lot of different ways that you could think about ROI, and I think ultimately it probably comes down to the person and their individual goals in pursuing the part-time MBA. I think for most people, just the notion that they're going to gain useful information, skills, experiences that will help them advance their career, be more effective at their career, might be sufficient. But for some people, they want to do some type of financial calculation and oftentimes they want to look at things like how much does a program cost and then what might that do to my salary over my working life?Right, and the one caution I would give people is every so often I see ROI and the expense part of it includes living expenses, food, and room and board. And I would argue that that should not be part of the calculation in terms of calculating the ROI of an MBA, not because I'm trying to reduce the expenses, but because those are expenses you'd have regardless of whether you did an MBA or not. So, if you're going to calculate the return on investment or just the cost of the MBA degree, while you have to budget for living expenses, it's not really part of the cost of the MBA because those are expenses you would have in any case, under any circumstances. That's just my own thing, but okay, let's go on. What is the ROI of the NYU Stern part-time MBA program? [2:47]Yeah, so we've been working on this for a few years now for the part-time program, to try to come up with a methodology that we feel is helpful for people who are interested in looking at that type of calculation. And what we did is we looked at data over the last four years of the class of the part-time students that were graduating,
Show SummaryDr. Cynthia Boyd, Associate Dean for Admissions and Recruitment at Rush Medical College, discusses the distinctive elements of the Rush Medical College program, including its focus on developing critical thinkers and providing excellent clinical care. She also highlights the importance of community service and healthcare exposure in the admissions process. Dr. Boyd emphasizes the need for applicants to present a thoughtful and authentic application that aligns with the school's mission. Ultimately, Dr. Boyd also encourages applicants to seek feedback if they are not successful in the admissions process and to consider areas for improvement before reapplying.Show NotesWould you like to attend a medical school that is outstanding – really outstanding – community service? I'm speaking today to the Associate Dean for Admissions at Rush Medical College, recipient of the 2020 Spencer Foreman Award for outstanding Community Engagement.Thanks for joining me for the 551st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Will you be ready next Spring to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Med School Acceptance Calculator can give you a quick reality check. You'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free. Now let's move on to today's interview. I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Cynthia Boyd of Rush Medical College. Dr. Boyd earned her MD at George Washington, where she also did her residency in internal medicine and later earned an MBA from Chicago Booth. She joined Rush Medical Center in 1998 and has served in a variety of roles, including Assistant Dean for Minority Affairs, Director of Medical Staff Operations and Chief Compliance Officer. She moved over to Rush Medical College full-time in 2019, and is now Senior Associate Dean for Diversity and Inclusion, as well as the Associate Dean for Admissions and Recruitment.Dr. Boyd, thanks for joining me on Admissions Straight Talk. Welcome back. [1:55]Pleasure to be here. Thank you.Let's start with my usual opening question, which is can you give an overview of the Rush Medical College program for MD students, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:01]Absolutely. So just a very quick overview, Rush Medical College was one of the first medical schools in the Midwest, dating back to when it was founded in 1837. And it is a clinical-focused organization or institution or university. We don't have a parent university, so we are dedicated to the health sciences. Rush Medical College, its main goal is to develop students who will be critical thinkers, who will provide excellent clinical care, patient safety and quality.So in 2017, the curriculum was totally changed and more directed at the students becoming the learners, self-directed learning versus sitting in a classroom and so to speak, being fed everything. So practitioner teacher models, our practitioners also teach our students, so they're able to bring to the classroom, to the students, their own practice experience, and they learn from that as well.What's new at Rush since we spoke a little over two years ago? A little over two years ago, we were in the midst of the pandemic, as I'm sure you remember and are aware. But has anything stayed from that period? What's changed? [3:17]I would say the newest is that we went from a grade scale of grading to pass fail.Oh, wow. [3:39]Now for the preclinical years, the pre-clerkship, I should say, years, it is a pass-fail grading system. Flipped classroom has already been in place, as I mentioned, since 2017, but now for the pre-clerkship years, everything is pass-fail.And when did that start? [3:58]That started I believe in 2018 or 19.Are students having difficulties in terms of residency placement because residency directors- [4:04]Not at all. In fact,
Show SummaryBrigitte Suhr, an Accepted law school admissions consultant and a former application reader for UVA Law, shares insights and advice on the law school admissions process in a podcast interview with Linda Abraham. They discuss topics such as changes in law school admissions, the importance of work experience before law school, the personal statement and diversity statement, common mistakes to avoid, and the character and fitness section of the application. Brigitte emphasizes the importance of starting early in the application process and being genuine in one's essays. She also provides guidance on addressing academic weaknesses and navigating the interview process.Show NotesIf you're applying to law school now or in the near future, you're going to love today's show. Brigitte Suhr, Accepted Law School admissions consultant and former application reader for UVA Law, is going to help you get accepted to your dream law school.Welcome to the 550th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your targeted programs? Accepted's law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check.Take the quiz and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free. Our guest today, Brigitte Suhr, earned her bachelor's from UT Austin and her JD from UVA. She then went on to travel the world as an international lawyer, working for Human Rights Watch, The International Criminal Court and other foundations and NGOs. For approximately two years, prior to joining accepted in 2019, Brigitte worked as an application reader for her alma mater, UVA School of Law, and in that capacity reviewed over 2,500 applications. She was the one recommending admit, or deny. Let's find out when she made those recommendations and how she helps accept its clients.Brigitte, welcome to Admissions Straight talk. [1:52]Thanks, Linda. I'm happy to be here.Pleasure to have you. Now let's just start with something fairly basic, actually not so basic. What's new in law school admissions this year? [1:56]There's a lot new, Linda, maybe too much new. So from year-to-year it seems like essays don't change that much. Applications don't change that much, but with the Supreme Court decision this past summer, law schools took that opportunity to review what they were doing. They want to be compliant with the decision, but in so doing, they added quite a few changes and in my opinion, maybe overloaded a bit on essays and supplementals and things like that.So it's been a big transition for those of us working in admissions and certainly for students who have even more work to do than ever. And frankly from, I wonder if some admissions committees aren't going to be regretting some of their extra essays at some point, because it's going to be longer and longer to read and I think maybe-Could be maybe more work for them. [2:47]Exactly. We might see some cutting back. I don't have inside information on that, but if I were them I'd be doing some cutting back by next summer.I know business schools used to have many more essays and over the years they've cut back quite a bit. [2:56]Yeah.This is not a change that occurred this year. I think it's a change that's occurred over the last 10, 20 years, and that is that more and more law school applicants or more and more law school students do not go directly from college to law school. They take a year off, I think it's frequently to work for a year. Do you advise applicants to, “take a year off,” – take a gap year or work before going to law school? [3:03]I mean, I think that law schools have always cared about employability, and they care about it all the more now because the US News and World Report is factoring that into the rankings, and so it becomes an important issue. But frankly,
Show SummaryIn this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, host Linda Abraham interviews Dean Robert Salomon, the inaugural Dean of Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi. They discuss NYU Stern's groundbreaking one-year MBA program in Abu Dhabi. The program is open to applicants from around the world, but it is particularly aimed at those interested in building a career in the Middle East. The program will offer the same core courses as NYU Stern’s MBA program in New York, and students will have the opportunity to study in both Abu Dhabi and New York City. The program also includes an experiential component, with students working on live projects for local companies. Dean Salomon emphasizes the growing entrepreneurial ecosystem in Abu Dhabi and the opportunities for students to engage with start-ups and gain hands-on experience. He also discusses the importance of diversity in the student body and the availability of merit-based scholarships. The episode concludes with Dean Salomon discussing the reasons behind choosing Abu Dhabi as the location for the program and the opportunities it offers for students to be part of the region's transition to a knowledge-based economy.Show NotesAre you interested in doing business in the Middle East but want an MBA from a top US business school? And would you prefer a one-year program? Today's episode is all about NYU Stern's groundbreaking one-year MBA program in the UAE's Abu Dhabi.Welcome to the 548th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Sometimes I'm asked, is the MBA worth it? And my answer is, it depends on your individual circumstances, but I've got good news. We've developed a tool, the MBA ROI calculator that will help you evaluate whether an MBA is worth it for you and your individual circumstances and by how much. And using the tool won't set you back even one cent. Use of the tool is free. It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Dean Robert Salomon. Dean Salomon earned his bachelor's from Michigan Ross and then moved to NYU Stern, which has been his home almost ever since. He earned his master's in PhD in strategy and international business there and has been a professor of management at Stern since 2005. Dean Salomon will lead the NYU program in Abu Dhabi and will actually be the inaugural Dean of Stern at NYU Abu Dhabi. Dean Salomon, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:49]Thanks for having me.I'm so glad you can join me. As we were talking about before, it's morning for me, night for you. It's amazing that we can... I think you're 12 hours ahead of me, right? [1:53]11 this time of year. Once you change your clocks, I think it'll be 12.So we're literally on other sides of the world and yet we can still have this delightful conversation. Let's start with an overview of NYU's Abu Dhabi MBA program. Can you please provide us with one? [2:07]Sure. So we are opening here a full-time MBA program. It's going to be a 12-month, accelerated MBA program that will run from January through December, and the first class will start in January of 2025.So you're really just getting going. You're not going to have a class this year, you're just getting going for the following year, really? [2:36]We'll start a year from January, although the website is now live, the application is available, it can be downloaded, people can start it, and we are accepting applications now. The first deadline comes up January 15th, but people can start applying now.It takes a while to put together a good application, so that makes a lot of sense. [3:00]Yeah.Is this program for people in the Middle East who want a US MBA or is it for people anywhere in the world who want to focus on business in the Middle East? What's the goal of the program? [3:06]So the program is for anybody in the world, and what we would like however, is that people who are interested in the region,
Show SummaryIn this podcast episode, Linda Abraham interviews Dr. Kevin Schulman, the director of Stanford's Master of Science and Clinical Informatics Management Program. They discuss the opportunities available at the intersection of medicine, business, and technology, and the problems that you can solve by combining these interests in your career. The program at Stanford combines business courses, technology courses, and ethics to train leaders who can transform healthcare delivery. The program is designed for working professionals and is a one-year, part-time cohort program. Graduates of the program can pursue careers as Chief Medical Information Officers, start their own companies, work in tech or industry, or advance in clinical leadership roles. Finally, the interview concludes with a discussion on the potential risks and benefits of technology in healthcare, and the importance of personalizing healthcare through technology.Show NotesWhat are the opportunities for you, if you're interested in the intersection of medicine, business, and technology? What problems can you solve if you combine those interests in your career? What education would you require? We're going to find out in this interview with the director of Stanford's Master's program and Clinical Informatics Management.Welcome to the 540th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Whether you are applying to a niche, innovative graduate program or more traditional one, the challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and are a standout in the applicant pool. Accepted's free download, Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance. Dr. Kevin Schulman, director of Stanford's Master of Science and Clinical Informatics Management Program is also Professor of Medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine and Professor of Operations Information and Technology at Stanford GSB. He is our guest today, and those are just three of his titles. He has several more, along with over 500 publications. His research focuses on organizational innovation and healthcare, healthcare policy and health economics, which leads us directly to Stanford's Master's in Clinical Informatics management or the MCIM. Dr. Schulman, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:00]Oh, thanks so much for having me, Linda.My pleasure. I'm really delighted to be speaking with you. I saw an ad for the program online and it just felt like such a fascinating program that I looked into it and I thought, gee, it'd be great to have you on. So let's start with a couple of really basic questions. I am not a techie and I'm not a healthcare professional. I do have an MBA. What is clinical informatics management? [2:05]That's a great question. As you think about healthcare compared to other services that you receive on a daily basis, we're just lagging so far behind in terms of how we provide digital services to our patients, to consumers, how we do follow-up, how we provide education. So we wanted to build a program to help create leaders that will transform the delivery of healthcare in this country and around the world. To do that, we combine business courses and technology courses and ethics in a year long program for working professionals where we meet every other weekend.So my next question was going to be, can you give us an overview of the MCIM program, and you kind of just did that, but can you go into a little bit more detail about how it is structured and what is actually taught in the program? I mean, again, it just sounds absolutely fascinating to me. [3:06]So at a high level, when I first started a program like this after the HITECH Act in 2009.Oh wow, it was back that far? [3:27]I was at Duke at the time, it wasn't here, but our CIO said, look,
While the Haas School of Business at the University of California, Berkeley, has made it very clear that applicants need outstanding academics to get in, the program will not compromise its values to maintain it high stats. Haas’s four Defining Leadership Principles are taken very seriously by the school’s administration and admissions team. You will need to show that you share and live by those principles if you are to receive serious consideration as an candidate. The four principles are as follows:Question the Status QuoConfidence Without AttitudeStudents AlwaysBeyond YourselfKeep those principles very much at the forefront of your mind as you prepare your Haas application.Ready to get to work on your Haas application? Read on. Haas application essay tipsHaas application deadlines Haas class profileDon’t miss our Admissions Straight Talk podcast interview with Eric Askins, Executive Director of Full-time MBA admissions at UC Berkeley Haas. He reveals why prospective applicants in their applications are encouraged to focus on their overall story and narrative, and how they can demonstrate their ability to handle the academic rigor of the program. Eric Askins also encourages applicants to engage with current students and alumni to learn more about the program and its opportunities. Listen below or click the image to read the full transcript.Haas application essay tipsHaas Essay #1What makes you feel alive when you are doing it, and why? (300 words maximum)Just reading this question excites me because it conjures up memories of my first SCUBA dive, playing tag with my stepsons when they were children, singing songs with my dad when he was ill, laughing until I cried at my husband’s jokes, and getting legislation passed that helps cancer patients live better lives. These are just some of the things that give my life meaning and purpose. So sit back and relax before you start writing this essay. Take some time to really consider the things that put a smile on your face. Is it spending time in nature? Being in nature helps us not only de-stress but also appreciate the beauty of the world around us. Is creating something new what makes you feel alive? Writing a poem, playing the guitar, painting a picture (or a house), building furniture, gardening – these can all be enriching experiences. Creating something from nothing allows us to express ourselves and share our talents. Does helping others make you happy? Making a difference helps us feel good about ourselves, enables us to connect, and builds strong relationships. Whatever your “it” is, it can be as common as a morning run or as unique as walking a tightrope – or as tasty as making barbeque sauce (for Ted Lasso fans). Regardless, it’s an activity you repeat because you just can get enough of it. It fills you with energy, love, and a need for “it” in your life. So, don’t try to guess what you THINK the adcom wants to read and write about that. The truth is that they want to read about your authentic self. Be descriptive so they can be in the moment or activity with you. And remember to write about why your “it” makes you feel alive, because the “why” is more important than the “it.” Haas Essay #2How will an MBA help you achieve your short-term and long-term career goals? (300 words max)To write this essay well, you must first understand and share Haas’s four Defining Leadership Principles (as presented on the Haas website): Question the Status Quo: We thrive at the epicenter of innovation. We make progress by speaking our minds even when it challenges convention. We lead by championing bold ideas and taking intelligent risks.Confidence Without Attitude: We make decisions based on evidence and analysis, giving us the confidence to act with humility. We foster collaboration by building a foundation of empathy, inclusion, and trust.
The University of Texas School of Law offers academic excellence, affordability, and robust support to its students. In this podcast interview, UT’s Dean of Admissions, Mathiew Le, discusses the distinctive qualities of the UT Austin Law JD program. He highlights the vibrant city of Austin, the healthy and robust Texas legal market, and the focus on building a strong community at UT Law. Le also discusses the Society Program, which helps students navigate the law school experience in a fun and social way, and the Mentorship Program, which provides students with guidance and support throughout their time at UT Law. Le advises applicants to submit their applications early, but only if they have a strong application. He also discusses the acceptance of both the LSAT and GRE, and the importance of tailoring applications to specific law schools. Le emphasizes the importance of leadership, community engagement, and enriching the learning environment in the admissions process. He also advises against trying to be overly creative in personal statements and highlights the availability of financial aid and scholarships at UT Law.Show NotesLocated in the heart of vibrant Austin, Texas Law offers its students academic excellence, affordability, and robust support, plus professional opportunities upon graduation. And today, we're speaking with its Dean of Admissions.Thanks for joining me for this, the 546 episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. You'll not only get an assessment, but you'll also get tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free. Now, for today's interview, I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Mathiew Le, Assistant Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the University of Texas School of Law. A native of Texas, Dean Le earned his bachelor's from the University of Texas at Austin and his JD from Ohio State University, Moritz College of Law.Prior to joining UT Law, Dean Le was the Assistant Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the University of Washington School of Law for almost a decade. He has held numerous national service and leadership positions, including serving as a member of LSACs board of trustees. Dean Le firmly believes in the value of a public education and has a deep commitment to providing access for education to underrepresented groups and helped co-found the National Asian Pacific American Pre-Law conference, now associated with the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association Annual Convention.Dean Le, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:10]Thank you so much, Linda. It's really a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.I'm delighted to speak with you today. All right, let's start with a very basic question. Can you give an overview of the more distinctive qualities or elements of the UT Austin Law JD program? [2:16]Sure. Absolutely. Well, one of the things that I always like to start off telling students that makes UT special really comes from a place of three colors. The first of which is the City of Austin. Austin is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, and continues to be a city that is grounded in a vibrant music and entertainment culture. Many people know that there's been an infusion of major tech companies like Amazon, Google, Oracle, and Tesla, combined with cultural offerings here. It's just a wonderful pit stop for many students who will come to law school for three years here in Austin and then decide to go elsewhere. A little bit about the Texas legal market in general is that it's very healthy, it's very robust. In the state of Texas, we have several major markets, Houston of course, Dallas, and then San Antonio as well.
Wharton has not changed its application essay questions for several seasons now. This is usually a sign that the admissions committee is happy with the kind of essays applicants are providing in response. Wharton asks candidates to share what they plan to do with their MBA in the short and long term and to discuss what they can contribute to the school’s community. The school’s optional essay then lets applicants address any issues with their profile, if needed.And don’t miss our Admissions Straight Talk podcast interview with Blair Mannix, Executive Director of Graduate Admissions at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. She encourages applicants to take risks and be themselves in their applications. The interview also covers the team-based discussion component of the admissions process and provides advice for reapplicants and those considering applying in the future. Listen below or click the image to read the full transcript.Ready to get to work on your Wharton application? Read on.Wharton application essay tipsWharton application deadlinesWharton class profileWharton application essay tipsWharton Essay #1How do you plan to use the Wharton MBA program to help you achieve your future professional goals? You might consider your past experience, short and long-term goals, and resources available at Wharton. (500 words)This question is future focused and exclusively professional. What do you want to do professionally that you can’t do now and that a Wharton MBA will enable you to do? What “soft” and “hard” skills do you hope to acquire at Wharton? How will a Wharton MBA (the education, credential, and experience), combined with your past experience and education, help you achieve your dreams?Wharton Director of Admissions Blair Mannix explains:“We want students to do self-reflection on why they want this degree. We want students to explore the pivot moment – when they decided they wanted to do this – and unpack the talent and treasure they can bring to the MBA. Spend the time and really think about the top three things you will get out of the program.”As with most MBA goals questions, Wharton wants to see how you plan to connect your MBA education to your future. Keep in mind that Wharton has an incredibly rich curriculum. How will you take advantage of its premier offerings to prepare yourself to realize your vision?To answer this question well, you need to have professional direction and you need to know which of Wharton’s myriad resources make it the perfect next stop on your professional journey.There are many ways you could structure your response. You might start with a pivotal experience that either illustrates what you seek to accomplish or shaped your short- and long-term goals. Then explain why this experience – ideally, an accomplishment – is important to you and how it relates to the question. In doing so, make sure you answer all the elements of Wharton’s essay question.Wharton Essay #2Taking into consideration your background – personal, professional, and/or academic – how do you plan to make specific, meaningful contributions to the Wharton community? (400 words)For this essay, start with the end in mind: How do you intend to contribute to the Wharton community?To answer that question, research the cocurricular opportunities and pedagogical approach at Wharton. How will you add to the program and its community? Based on your experience, what difference do you intend to make? How will you participate and, yes, contribute?Now decide on the aspects of your experience and background that have prepared you to have your intended impact. You can highlight achievements, challenges overcome, initiatives you’ve led, and teamwork situations, and that’s just for starters. You’re now ready to write.You can start this essay with the impactful experience from your past and then analyze the lesson you learned from that accom...
Located in the heart of vibrant and historic Boston, Boston University School of Law offers enormous breadth to its students, and today, we’re speaking with its Dean of Admissions.
Are you applying to law school this cycle or are you planning to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
I’m delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk Alissa Leonard, Senior Assistant Dean for Admissions, Financial Aid and Enrollment at Boston University School of Law. Dean Leonard attended Oberlin College and earned her AB in History. She has been in admissions at BU Law since 2008 and brings 15 years of experience to our conversation today.
Dean Leonard, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:37]Thanks very much for having me.
My pleasure. Can you give an overview of the more distinctive elements of the BU Law JD program? [1:41]Sure, I’d be happy to, and you’ll have to stop me when I run on too long because I love this question.
We’re in the center or heart of Boston obviously. If I look out my window, I’ve closed my shades, but you would see the Charles River with folks on it on this sunny day. You would see the State House from my office. Boston’s obviously a major legal market. It’s the hottest biotech city in the country. The First Circuit sits here. We’re big on tech and innovation, and of course, it’s a very youthful city because of all the schools and colleges here.
On top of being in the middle of Boston, we’re part of a large research institution of 36,000 students. It has remarkable benefits, concrete as in opportunities for dual degrees or for students to just take up to 12 hours of graduate-level coursework anywhere at BU towards their degrees, but also sort of lifestyle enhancements like an outstanding gym and that sort of thing.
Within the law school, we have a deep and broad curriculum. We have an outstanding portfolio of experiential opportunities that maybe we’ll talk about. We guarantee a clinical opportunity to any student who wants one. We have a broad range of study abroad programs. We have just expertise, a faculty renowned, not only for their legal research, but for their talent in the classroom.
So I think we feel very strongly about a student’s ability to find their path, even change their path during the three years, and we might want to talk about that, for all sorts of avenues toward their eventual practice. We also offer students a community of support, by which I mean students are assigned a faculty mentor, career development advisor, an upper-level student and an alumni mentor if they would like one upon entry to the law school. So I think this gives students an extraordinary opportunity of designated people from whom they may seek advice and counsel as they proceed into the building of their professional careers.
It really sounds like very robust support. [3:45]Yes, I think so.
Now, when I was preparing for the call, I was really struck by the breadth of the law school, and you’ve touched upon it in your response to my last question. Can you go into a little bit more depth? I noticed that BU Law has, for example, a special program in transactional law as well as study abroad programs and a concentration in international law. There’s a lot more, but those two programs caught my eye. [3:49]Sure. I think I’ll start with the transactional practice program, which I’d say is the premier such program in the country. It started here about 12 years ago. It is not a secret that most lawyers do transactional law, not litigation, but law schools traditionally didn’t train students. The training was often training they got in firms in transactional work. And so here, we have an outstanding program taught in large part by senior practicing attorneys in the community that is a hands-on program with a very low student-faculty ratio.
For instance, if you do the transactional program concentration, which you don’t need to do to take advantage of the courses, a required course and the first course in that series is Contract Drafting. And every lawyer is going to encounter contracts whether they are doing transactional work or litigation. But this is a class, I think we were up to 11 sections last year.
Wow, that’s a lot. [5:15]And each class has just 12 students because it’s a very hands-on class. So learning the ins and outs of a contract, doing the drafting, doing the redrafting, doing some negotiation. And those have been really fulfilling classes. I know that we get a lot of feedback from students once they’re in firms or other practice settings about how somebody handed them a contract and they knew how to read it, so it’s proved to be a big advantage to our students.
And then there are a series of courses from which you can choose if you want to do the concentration, like Mergers and Acquisitions or International Tax, a wide variety. But in each case, you would end with a simulation course, which is a semester-long course not with live clients, but it’s a simulation course of a deal. Students walk through the deal, whether it’s a pharmaceutical company and a drug maker or a business or an international acquisition. These are remarkable experiences for our students to leave law school with.
That sounds remarkable. [6:24]I think there’s been a big commitment over the last decade, I would say, to the law school keeping its pulse on the practice to be sure that our students are practice-ready. And so the Transactional Law Program is part of that effort.
And are there also clinics that they can participate in terms of let’s say, obviously they’re under the supervision of lawyers or the professors, but where they can work with people, small business people or whatever? [6:42]Yes, there’s some transactional work, I believe, in our two clinics, which are intellectual property clinics with MIT. We’re the only law school with clinics with MIT. One is the Startup Law Clinic and one is the Technology Law Clinic. Those are both year-long clinics with live clients supervised by full-time faculty. Most of our clinics are serving clients who couldn’t afford representation in the criminal law clinic or the civil litigation program. And some are policy clinics.
So we have a Legislative Policy Clinic, that’s one of the only ones I believe in the country. I can see the State House. So students have the opportunity to work on legislation, and we also have an International Human Rights Clinic that’s largely a policy clinic. Otherwise, we’re focused on live-client clinics, and as I mentioned, guarantee students the opportunity to take a clinic.
And the other program I asked about was the International Law Clinic, which transactional law is kind of the bread and butter of lawyers, right? Like you say, most lawyers draw up contracts. That’s what they’re there for. International law is kind of the other end in that it’s probably a very narrow slice of law, of the practice of law. Do you want to touch on that for a second? [7:47]Right. So there’s public international law and private international law, and we have scholars teaching in both those areas. We also have a concentration that consists, of course, of courses. We have an International Law Journal and we can talk about what law school journals are, if we get to that.
That’s a great question. Go for it. [8:26]Right? So rather bizarrely, in the field of legal academics, most law professors are writing scholarship, that is with the goal of having it published, which is what all academics do, but in the field of law, those pieces of scholarship are published by student-edited journals at law schools. So the most prestigious journal is typically the law review, and if you remember in Legally Blonde, Elle Woods is trying to get onto Law Review. That is historically a gem, an achievement that you would put on your resume that would be of interest to employers.
So we have six journals here and that’s extracurricular. In some cases, students may receive some credit, but it’s something that you would do in your second and third year. You would compete to be on a journal at the end of your first year. Here at BU Law, you would rank your preference of journals. And these are student-run organizations. They have editorial boards, they receive submissions from faculty across the country. They read them, and then they work with the chosen authors to edit and publish them, all the while many of them are writing what we would consider lengthy and very narrow papers, legal papers called notes is the term of art. And some number of student notes will also be published by the journals.
That’s how much of legal scholarship goes. It’s a great opportunity for students. We have six journals. We have a law review. We also have a Journal of International Law, Technology and the Law. We have a bunch of them. So the students who like to write and research, that’s a great place for them.
I’m not sure how we got there, but I could go back to study abroad if you want.
Sure! [10:14]Okay. So we have a very large portfolio of study abroad opportunities, 15 single-semester programs in 11 countries. Those are single-semester programs. Most are taught in English, not all of them. Some are in the language of that country. These are programs in Europe, Asia, and South America. And we also have six JD LLM programs, and LLM is a further advanced degree in the law. And so in these programs, in the three years that you would typically take to earn your JD, you can earn both a JD and an LLM, say in international arbitration at Paris, too. You have to speak French.
These are not programs that many people do, but for the right student, they are amazing opportunities and many of our students consider them life-changing and transformative. If nothing else, you’re exposed to another culture and another way of thinking about the law and a different legal system. I think you would choose them not maybe as you would choose a study abroad program as an undergrad, like, “I want to go to Australia.” That’s not how you would choose it. There are different areas of specialty at these law schools, although they’re not entirely law schools, one’s a graduate school, one’s a business school, where you would match your substantive area of interest in the law with the strength at the other institution.
So this is a great opportunity for our students. People can read more about these experiences on our website, and it’s just another way that we offer opportunity. There are a lot of choices to make during your three years of how to spend your time.
Again, I was really struck by the breadth of the programs. That’s kind of why I wanted to ask about those. But let’s turn to admissions now. That’s obviously your area. I know that BU Law accepts the LSAT and the GRE. Approximately what percentage of the applicant pool has applied with the GRE, let’s say last year? [11:52]About two and a bit percent.
So still very tiny. [12:15]A very small slice, very small slice. Yep.
Are you even able to say with that small percentage if the GRE is equally predictive of success in law school? Not really? [12:21]I cannot because we’ve only been taking it for a few years. One year, we didn’t even have any matriculants with the GRE. And of course, now we’re faced with the GRE having a new version so things have gotten even more complicated.
That’s true. [12:42]So I don’t know. I think for students who haven’t taken a test yet, in other words, they haven’t done a first degree that required a GRE and they’re just trying to be efficient and move along, I think it makes more sense to take the LSAT. And there are interesting things about it. For instance, the GRE scores writing, and you would be surprised or I have been surprised by some of the quite low scores on the writing section of the GRE.
And that would be a red flag in law school.[13:14]Yes, it would. Yes, it would.
What is the best time to apply in your opinion? [13:17]I love this question. So I started in this business in the ’90s and then took a break for a while, and I actually think the answer changes every cycle, and oh, that I had a crystal ball because I don’t know how the cycle’s going to go. So sometimes I hear people saying, “Early, early, early.” Maybe. I think it’s clear that late is bad, or rather than bad, perhaps I would say you are disadvantaged if you apply in March or April.
Maybe you can also define what is early and late? [14:02]Sure. I’ve always thought of early as Thanksgiving. If you apply before Thanksgiving for BU Law, it’s early, if we’re not talking about binding decision programs, for which we have many different deadlines.,We could talk about that. But generally, I would say by Thanksgiving is early. I’m not sending out decisions in September and October because one of the things I want to know before I start sending out decisions is, “What is the applicant pool going to look like this year?” And there’s no way to know in September and October. And also, we’re recruiting in September and October and we’re typically getting systems up and running, and for a lot of reasons, there isn’t a reason to rush.
After November, I think it gets harder to be definitive about whether in a particular year someone’s outcome would’ve been wildly different or it doesn’t have to be wildly different. It could just be different, and the student could be disappointed. Now, I recognize that, and I think we had a crazy cycle a couple of years ago. That cycle, it made sense. We didn’t know it at the time, but applying early was a huge advantage. That has not been consistently true.
So I think there’s never a downside to applying on the earlier side if you’re prepared, if you’re happy with your materials, you’ve been thorough, you’ve taken the test, but someone shouldn’t be discouraged by applying later in the cycle because the way I think of it, what’s the worst thing that could happen? If they’ve applied at the end and have been waitlisted as a result, they’re a competitive applicant. They may still be admitted. And if not, law school’s not going anywhere, so worst-case scenario, they could work or go to school for another year and then reapply the next cycle.
Is there a disadvantage to applying as a reapplicant? [15:48]Not at BU Law, not in any way, unless the person was admitted the prior cycle and did not come. I actually have a question on the application that asks if you applied the prior cycle and then it says, “If you were admitted, please explain why you didn’t choose to attend.”
Is that specifically at BU Law? Was it a different law school? Do you still want to answer? [16:09]No, it was BU Law. Yeah.
It was just BU Law? [16:13]I figure, okay, I admitted you once and you didn’t come. Why are you applying again?
Makes sense. [16:19]I tend to be cautious with those applications.
Actually, I think it’s rather generous of you that you ask the question because a lot of schools will say, “We admitted you last time, you didn’t come. Forget it.” So I think that’s a nice thing, if you will, a generous thing.What are your top tips for the personal statement at BU Law? [16:24]We have a prompt, so my top tip is follow the prompt. And you would be surprised at how many people don’t, and readers get very frustrated. Some schools don’t have personal statement prompts. Some schools have very general ones. Ours is essentially, why do you want to go to law school? We’re asking the question because we’d like to hear the answer, and if you don’t answer the question, sometimes we can be left and a reader will say, “I don’t know why this person wants to go to law school.”
And so your application is the opportunity to make the case for your admission. You have all the different parts, which together, should come together in your favor. And the personal statement is where we hear your voice, so if we’re saying to you, “Please tell us this information.” You ought to answer the question.
Excellent advice. [17:31]Some other things. I’m a little old school, so sometimes we’ll see somebody conclude that’s why they want to attend Law School X. Well, I’m not Law School X, I’m BU Law. And so occasionally, because I do think we’re in higher education, I do think there could be a learning component here. We will send an email to the applicant and say, “Would you like to review your personal statement?” And I got a few back last cycle who said, “No thanks, I already proofread it.’
Oh, gosh. Oh my goodness. [18:02]Okay, well, lawyers must read closely, must proofread. People are going to be representing people or companies’ interests here. This is not a joke. It’s a learning opportunity, but it’s also… So you certainly want to proofread carefully.
And a more recent trend I’ve seen, I don’t know, it’s hard to talk about, but I’ve seen tremendously personal information in personal statements. And it’s both hard to read because we’re human beings, so it’s hard to absorb. We can’t do anything about it. If somebody’s reporting a crime that they haven’t reported to anyone else, I don’t care to be the bearer of that information. And it often, in those essays, for whatever reason, strays from the professional presentation of why the person wants to go to law school.
So in other words, mentioning these difficult circumstances, and many of us unfortunately have had them, could be a 100% appropriate in a personal statement. That’s the reason you want to go to law school because you’ve seen the inadequacy of the criminal justice system. That’s very different than an extensive personal statement that details… I’ve had trigger warnings in personal statements. So if you find yourself writing a trigger warning, I would suggest that you think about this in a professional context. Your application may be shared with the Bar. It’s going to be housed in a law school. So you want to be professional in all of the presentation of your material. And so there are ways to handle sensitive information without providing a lot of it.
I’ve actually heard that from others. My guess is that part of the reason for this, this trend, if you will, is that the schools are looking for resilience. Well, if you’re looking for resilience, you have to have overcome something or come back from something. And the degree of pain that you experienced is also an evidence of resilience. I’m not defending it. [19:55]No, no. You’re right. And I think it’s worth writing about also.
But there is a way to write about it. [20:33]I would not discourage a student from writing about it at all. It’s the way it’s written about.
Right. And I think the other thing is that for applicants to remember, this is something that I’ve advocated for years, is you want to show that you’re stronger after whatever it is that you went through than damaged goods. [20:37]And that you’re ready.
Right. The example I’ve given, if you’ll bear with me for a minute, is years ago, we had a double stroller. I had six kids, and that thing went through from number two to number six. But I think when the sixth one was a baby or the fifth one was a baby, the metal frame broke and I think it was the sixth one, I knew I didn’t want to replace it because I wasn’t going to have more kids.I had to find a place that would fix it. So I went, actually it was some boat shot in the marina. I lived, at the time, near the beach, and they soldered it together. And I said, “Is the solder going to be a weak point? Is it going to break more? Is it going to be prone to breakage?” And they said, “No, the solder is going to be stronger than any other part.”And I said, “That’s how you’ll have to come out in your personal statement, like that old stroller.” Which by the way, after the number six was three or four or whatever, I no longer used it, I gave it away and somebody was still using it. I had no idea what happened to it after that. But that’s how you want to come out. If you had some horrible, traumatic experience that you’re using to show resilience, and most people have had difficulties in their life, hopefully not too horrible, you want to show that you are stronger, like that broken piece on my old stroller that was soldered together. [20:55]That’s a beautiful way to illustrate it. Yes.
So let’s go on. Enough from me. I’m here to interview you. What about the optional essay? Is it basically a diversity statement? [22:17]It’s an optional essay. It’s based on a requirement the ABA put in recently to Standard 303 that everyone needs to have fluency in. And I would have to look because I don’t want to misquote this.
“Consistent with the American Bar Association, Boston University School of Law believes that knowledge about bias, cross-cultural competency, ability to understand people from different backgrounds and engage with them effectively, and racism are central to the legal profession. Please tell us how your education, training, or lived experience has deepened your knowledge about bias, cross-cultural competency, and racism, and/or prepared you to explore these topics at BU Law.”
That’s a new addition to the standards and the ABA standards. The ABA, American Bar Association, as you know, are our accreditors of law schools and so all law schools now are going to be required to provide, I believe, two opportunities for students to learn around these topics. So, this is the question.
I will say, and I don’t expect this to change, I ran some data. We’ve always had an optional statement, and this one will be optional as well. And typically, about 44% of students have written that optional essay. It’s by no means required. And sometimes students find that the content they want to share actually fits in with the personal statement and they prefer to write one. So I wouldn’t expect that to change much this cycle.
When should an applicant write an addendum in your opinion? [23:52]Sure. I love them, actually. So as a reader, I’m trying to construct a narrative, I’m trying to understand who this person is and their trajectory so far and where they’re headed. So if I see an anomaly, I’m looking at a transcript and it’s a strong transcript and there’s a poor semester, sometimes, well all the time, I think it’s human instinct to try to fill in the reason. So for instance, if I see pre-med classes freshman year and the grades aren’t strong, and then there’s a flip to poli sci and the grades are strong, in a way, that tells a story. But sometimes you don’t know, and sometimes you might make the wrong assumption. If you look at the resume and see someone, for instance, joined a fraternity the semester their grades tanked, you might say, “Well, that might be why,” but maybe that person’s, God forbid their grandmother died. Things happen. And so you lose an opportunity to tell me the truth of what happened.
So I recommend people really look at their whole application closely and think or show it to a friend, where are questions that aren’t answered? And if you can’t answer them somewhere obvious, then write an addendum, whether that’s about a poor test score, a big gap between test scores, a semester of poor grades.
I think we haven’t talked about the pandemic yet, but boy did that… It was terrible. Even saying that, I get a little funny feeling. I’ve seen so much trauma and so-
It was really hard on kids. It was just hard. [25:35]It was really hard. It was really hard. Schools went remote, people didn’t have good living circumstances or they had immunocompromised family members, whatever it was, it wasn’t easy. And so there are resume gaps, for instance. I’m going back to the addendum, and I think people should own that also, and I think it’s completely fine to write about that.
And none of these need to be long. Three or four sentences is a great length. We’re reading a lot. The only ones I don’t like are, again, a little too detailed about digestive disorders. That sort of thing is unnecessary. But if you had a bad test administration because you were sick, I don’t need to know more than that. And so I actually find them very helpful. And we don’t limit the number.
Now, if somebody has four or five, you do start to question that. So you want to use common sense in all parts of your application, but I really think they can be helpful.
It’s a matter of showing judgment. [26:37]Yes, absolutely.
Judgment, common sense. [26:40]Yeah. Both things the lawyers need. Yeah.
Right, right. Professionals need them. Are there any blemishes on one’s record that would be an automatic denial, like a criminal record or academic dishonesty or dismissal from an undergraduate program or something like that? [26:45]Well, I would never say never. It depends on the severity of the incident. A lot of people drank in college. That’s not a secret. A lot of people had incense in their dorm rooms or candles. That’s not going to prevent a strong student from admission to law school. Now, years ago I read an application of somebody who threw a pumpkin out their dorm window and was expelled because you can actually really hurt someone.
Hurt somebody, sure. [27:24]Or someone who set off the fire alarm inside the dorm, the sprinkler system. These are not crimes without victims potentially. So I think there’s that distinction.
And then there are, of course, convictions. I will say that in Massachusetts, we’re constrained about what we may ask in character and fitness questions. For instance, we don’t ask if someone has been arrested. You’ll see different questions in different states. And that’s another place where students should be savvy and read the question carefully. But I would say we’re reviewing each case as it comes through. And of course, if we’re talking about felony convictions, that’s a serious matter. I’ve seen felony convictions for downloading music back in the day. That would be very different than reading somebody who’s convicted of a violent crime.
And would distance and time from the incident also be a factor? [28:17]I think in general, distance and time from a number of things in the application are a factor, whether it’s from grades, test scores or this as well. Yeah, yeah.
Is full-time work experience a nice-to-have or really important to BU Law? I noticed that 64% of the students had one or more years of postgraduate work experience. That’s a pretty large number. [28:31]It is. Typically, a quarter to a third of the class comes straight from undergrad. Those students have as much success as students who have been out doing other things. But there’s no question that life is long and there are a lot of things to learn that will help you in law school and in the practice, and if you’ve been working on those things before coming to law school, I think you’re that much further ahead. And it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for people straight out of school. So I would say nice-to-have.
Nice to have, that’s pretty good. That’s clear. And in terms of experience, whether it’s full-time work experience or internships as an undergrad or part-time, whatever, do you like to see experience that is closely related to law, like working in a legal office or legal clinic or perhaps in politics, policy, or something like that? [29:12]We have a lot of students who have been legislative aides or paralegals in a variety of settings. For some students, I think it’s important to be proximate to the practice to kind of figure out what it’s about and whether they really want to invest three years of tuition and time and make it their career. It’s serious business. Other people, for whatever reason, maybe they’ve wanted to be a lawyer since they were a kid, maybe someone they admired was a lawyer, are certain of their path and really want to take the opportunity to be in the Peace Corps, walk the Appalachian Trail, be a carpenter.
We have students from all walks of life, a lot of scientists. I think everybody brings different skills and so I wouldn’t say it’s something we look for, especially since I think people aren’t always given substantive work in some of these settings. So they may not gain the skills that they could gain in a different setting because it’s easy to Google what skills do lawyers need and sort of do a self-assessment and find an opportunity where you can sort of check some of those skills off. If you’re not comfortable speaking in public, for instance, and you know you’re going to be called on during the first year of law school, why not sort of get that taken care of before you start law school? And you might or might not be able to do that in a law firm or a legal setting. You might be better off knocking on doors for NYPIRG or something.
So I think there are a lot of different ways to approach it, in other words, and so it’s not something we look for.
What factors do you weigh in addition to GPA and LSAT? [31:12]Sure. So I think all law schools say they do a holistic review by which we mean we’re looking at everything. So even when you say, “Besides the LSAT or the test score and the GPA,” even the GPA, we’re dissecting. We get a lot of information and we can maybe talk about that separately, but in terms of the other things, we’ve talked about, the personal statement. I am a huge fan of resumes, really interested in what’s on the resume. Same with letters of recommendation and any additional materials submitted.
So all of those things can make or break a decision at different points. We have a large applicant pool here, so we’re going to have to distinguish among people, and that’s where test scores and GPAs don’t do it. That’s not an interesting way to look at the whole person. There’s a lot more there to see.
You said it before, you’re looking at the whole package, you’re looking at the resume, you’re looking at the personal statement, the addenda, the optional essay if it’s written, the letters of recommendation. What qualities are you looking for? [32:14]Curiosity, potential for growth. No one’s tapped out at 22, one hopes.
Hope so. [32:28]Signs of growth. Often you hear that talked about in letters of recommendation. “I had her as a freshman, and now as a senior, I see the following,” and you see the transformation. A good community member is really important. If someone has a letter, and we should talk maybe, or maybe we can talk about letters of recommendation, but if someone has a letter that says, “Susan didn’t let anyone else speak, wasn’t open to…” And you do read those letters. Or somebody who simply has a resume that suggests no outside activity of any sort, no interest.
So I think we’re looking for, I don’t know that well-rounded is really the word, but curious, engaged students with a sense of purpose, even if they don’t know exactly where their career is going to go, but some energy, some energy behind wanting to get there and to get there with their colleagues, not against them, if that makes sense.
You’ve touched on letters of recommendation a couple of times. What is the role of letters of recommendation in your evaluation process? [33:37]I think they can tell us a lot about how the person is in the classroom, and this is school, so I like academic recommendations. We require two letters, accept up to four, and prefer academic letters. I think they can speak to growth, they can speak to initiative, sometimes resilience and determination. We’ve seen letters coming out of the pandemic where students really distinguish themselves by staying engaged on Zoom and being able, despite difficult circumstances, to put in the work and complete an independent paper or honors thesis or a seminar with energy, which was clearly appreciated by professors, by these letter writers who are really struggling also to pivot to teaching online.
They can warn us of difficulties. I mean, I always say to students, “You need to request a strong letter, and if the person hesitates at all, you need to thank them and leave.” I’m sure you offer the same advice.
I give the same advice, almost verbatim. [34:50]Right? And I don’t love seeing those letters. They break my heart a little bit. Now, we have to use our judgment about the letter writer too because if the letter writer is a little less than ideal, you don’t want to blame the applicant. But if the letter writer seems to have standing and be a member of the faculty and is saying something negative, that is not going to go anywhere. That’s a warning.
But we read beautiful letters and sometimes you read letters and you’re like, “Oh, the faculty would… I can even think of a faculty member who would love to teach this person.” They’re super engaged with the content, they’re showing up, they’re leading the classroom discussion, they’re in office hours, yes. And then you look at the resume and you start to see the other side of them, and it starts to all come together.
It is a puzzle that you’re really looking at with different elements.Does BU Law consider update letters from applicants who have something significant to tell you after they submit their application and before hearing back from you from waitlisted applicants also? [35:42]Love them. And in fact, again, in my old-school ways, we often request additional grades almost regularly, particularly if someone’s graduating in three years and they’ve applied in the fall, I’ll ask for another semester’s worth of grades. But if someone finishes a thesis, takes a new job, gets an internship, there’s no reason not to update us.
The only thing I would say, I would implore students to include their LSAC number and to remember this remains a professional process from start to finish. So we don’t love salutations of, “Hey, here’s some news.” That’s not really how lawyers write.
Professionalism is something to keep in mind. [36:42]Yeah, through the whole process. But it also, it shows interest on the student’s part because what we’re trying to do is ascertain, “Does this student really want to come here?” So if somebody’s providing an update, I’m going to assume they’re thinking about BU Law in a very serious way and they want us to see their accomplishments or understand their situation. So yes, absolutely, we’ll add it. It’s very easy in this paperless environment to add that right to the file.
Good to know.Now, you’ve mentioned some mistakes that you’ve seen along the way. Are there other mistakes that come to mind that applicants frequently make in the application process? [37:10]I think some applicants devalue themselves or feel that they shouldn’t include things as part of their narrative in their resume or in their statement that aren’t law-related, and that could not be more untrue.
So if you have had to work over the summer as a cashier at the grocery store or a waitress so that you can pay your tuition, that’s really valuable information in the law school admissions process. It’s concrete evidence that you are trusted, you know how to show up for work, you know how to deal with difficult people, you have good time management skills, and that goes double for term time.
Same with athletes. If I read someone is, I’m not a football fan particularly, but if I read that someone’s on the football team, I’m like, “They have a second job,” or a competitive swimmer, runner, many sports.
They have team skills too. [38:17]Right, team skills, and they’re getting their work done because I’m looking at their transcript. So I think sometimes people, they just edit themselves too much in the application process, and it’s better to be authentic and present your full self and let us parse out the skillset and see the value. I had somebody who was a personal care attendant and didn’t have it on his resume, and I was like, “Boy, that is a tough job. A tough job that says a lot about you.”
A lot of responsibility. Like you say, show up whenever the hours were. [38:48]Someone’s completely dependent on them. And same for unpaid. If people have family responsibilities, same thing. It doesn’t have to be a paid responsibility. And I like a very robust resume, not a resume you would use for employment, but a resume for the law school application process.
That’s great insight. Thank you. What would you have liked me to ask you? [39:17]Oh, that’s a tough one. A couple of things come to mind. I think you didn’t ask me why I love it here, and so I’ll answer that one because I’ve been here long enough to see students from beginning to partners at firms and in nonprofits, and so I think why I’ve stayed and why I love it so much is our students are a remarkably talented and diverse group of people and very energizing to be around. I think that’s what I’ll say.
Now, you said you had a couple of things, so is there something else you want to also raise? [39:54]I think if people really want to go to law school, they’re going to go to law school. Law schools are here to support that process. I’m sure it’s not just BU Law. You can call law schools, you can ask questions, you can visit law schools, you can apply in multiple cycles. There are all sorts of ways to go about applying, and sometimes I hear stress, that makes me sad, about, say, writing the personal statement, which is a very straightforward working document. It’s meant to answer a question, it’s not meant to be a work of art. But I think I would need another hour to go further.
Well, we’re running out of time and I don’t want to impose further. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your insider perspective on BU Law, the program, the admissions process. This has been wonderful.Where can listeners learn more about BU Law? [40:41]Sure. Our website is a great starting point. We’re easy to find and there’s lots to read about there.
Relevant Links:
- BU Law School Admissions
- Are You Ready for Law School? (Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz)
- 5 Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Law School Application Essays
Related Shows:
- How to Get Accepted to Fordham Law – podcast Episode 529
- LSAT and Law School News – podcast Episode 509
- How a Non-Traditional Applicant Gets Into UCLA Law – podcast Episode 507
- How to Get Accepted to Berkeley Law -podcast Episode 504
- How to Get Into Georgetown Law – podcast Episode 489]
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There is tons of advice on Accepted.com and on previous episodes of Admissions Straight Talk, about what you should do when you're applying to top MBA programs. But what about common mistakes? What about the things that you shouldn't be doing? What are the errors that applicants like you all too frequently make on applications?
Today you're going to hear different admissions committee directors from around the world talk about what they think are the most common mistakes in MBA applications, and you're invited to listen in.
Welcome to the 538th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Before I turn to those mistakes I mentioned a second ago, I have a question for you: Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted's MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. And you’ll not only gett an assessment; you’ll also get tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free.
If you're a regular listener to Admissions Straight Talk, you know that during most episodes of AST I interview a guest. Occasionally, I do a solo show. Frequently, the guests are admissions directors. I also have many times asked my guests, “What are the most common mistakes that you see when you're reviewing applications?”
Today's episode is a collection of guests’ answers to the questions, what are the most common mistakes you have seen during the MBA application process? What are the most common mistakes that you see when reviewing applications? All featured guests are admissions directors at top MBA programs sharing what you should not do when you are applying.
The two most common mistakes were in broad categories,
Lack of authenticity, a sense that you're not really revealing yourself.
And number two, sloppiness, which can come in many forms and you can learn about those forms through the admissions directors’ comments.
There are nuances and details that the admissions committee directors provide in their comments, and you want to hear from them in their words what they are - so don't go anywhere. Don't just think that the two items I listed, you're done for the day.
In addition, there were some other errors that don't fit into those two categories and still are common and damaging to applicant's chances. For example, one would be to not adjust in your resume for business school, but give in the technical resume that you have used in getting jobs. That's not going to work when you're applying to an MBA program.
But again, you're going to want to hear what changes you need to make and you're going to want to hear it from the admissions' director's mouth. In short, to make sure that your applications shine like gems, first, remove the impurities. Those impurities are the common errors discussed in the rest of this episode. I've arranged the episodes in alphabetical order by school name.
Teresa Peiro, Associate Director of Global Admissions for Degree Programs at INSEAD [3:22]
Linda Abraham: Our first speaker is INSEAD's Teresa Peiro, Associate Director of Global Admissions for Degree Programs.
Now, you've been doing this for a few years, what's the most common mistake you see in the application?
TP: I would say lack of motivation. We know that the application process is long and it takes time, and our recruitment team is always saying focus on the essays, focus on what you're writing. You need to prepare. So a sloppy application is a no go.
TP: Essays that aren't well-structured, essays that are not well-prepared, things that are mismatching, lack of consistency, that would be a killer.
And that translates to you as lack of motivation.
TP: And this is a big investment and it's not only about money, but it's also who you're going to… This INSEAD will follow you for the rest of your life. We tend to say that you'll never travel alone, for instance. So it's something that we want to be sure that you're really going ...
Michigan State's College of Osteopathic Medicine provides an innovative patient-centered curriculum with multiple specialties and multiple opportunities for clinical exposure. Sound appealing? Well, plug in your earbuds because today I'm speaking with the senior associate dean of admissions at Michigan State University's College of Osteopathic Medicine.
Welcome to the 537th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Dr. Katherine Ruger earned her undergraduate degree at Northwood University, her master's in counseling and sports psychology at Wayne State, and her PhD in education and organizational leadership from Pepperdine University. She started at MSU College of Osteopathic Medicine as an admissions' counselor in 2009 and has assumed increasing responsibilities ever since. Since August 2022, almost exactly a year ago, she has served as a senior associate dean of admissions and student affairs at Michigan State University's College of Osteopathic Medicine.
Dr. Ruger, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:40]
Thank you, Linda.
Can you give us, just to start, an overview of MSU's DO program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:54]
Sure. I'd love to. MSUCOM, which is what I'll refer to it during the course of the session, is a really special place. I think it has a lot to do with the type of people that we recruit and attract, both from an admissions' perspective as well as faculty and staff. Certainly, it's a college of osteopathic medicine, and so our training really revolves around that holistic approach and focusing on preventative medicine. But we're looking for students and faculty and staff who have a commitment to service, a heart for leadership. That type of community just inspires a lot of growth, curiosity, excitement. It's a really wonderful place to be, and I know that I'm biased in saying that perhaps. But I think something that sets us apart is that we are part of Michigan State University, and we have a lot of wonderful access to resources as part of the university.
Our college is committed to local community outreach as well as international outreach. A lot of reasons why folks want to be part of our community is because they get to serve different populations of people. We have street medicine, which is where our students, in partnership with clinicians, get to go and work with individuals who are experiencing homelessness. That's more on the local level. Then from an international perspective, we have renowned faculty that are trying to cure malaria in Malawi. We have students going out there and doing medical missions. We have them going to Peru and Guatemala. It's really fun to be able to get them involved in a lot of different ways. It tends to be a reason why, again, folks want to be here.
You mentioned the community focus as well as the international focus. That's a balancing act I assume, but I noticed that you have three campuses. You also mentioned that it's obviously an osteopathic school. How do both the ability to study on three different campuses and the osteopathic nature of the program affect the educational experience for MSU students? [3:43]
Good question, and one that I've not been asked. The first thing I thought of was the interconnectedness of systems, which is the osteopathic philosophy in general. Because students can start their preclinical years or years one and two of medical school in Detroit, in Clinton Township, or in East Lansing, Michigan. They have the opportunity to select their geography. Certainly the vibe, if you will, across those campuses. But at the same time, there's an interconnectedness,
Leadership, teamwork, and ethics are essential elements of the Duke Fuqua MBA, which is why you’ll need to make sure you express your passion for these qualities in your application essays. Impress the Fuqua adcom by positioning yourself as an innovative leader and team player, as someone who can see the big picture, work collaboratively, and shape global business.To learn more about the school, listen to our podcast interview with Shari Hubert, Duke Fuqua’s associate dean of admissions.
Ready to get to work on your Duke Fuqua application? Read on.
Duke Fuqua application essay tips
Duke Fuqua application deadlines
Duke Fuqua class profile
Duke Fuqua application essay tips
You’ll need to provide your thoughts on one short answer question and two longer essay questions as part of your application.Instructions for all written submissions:
Responses should use 1.5-line spacing and a font size no smaller than 10-point.
Do not repeat the question in the document you upload with your application as this will cause the essay to be flagged for plagiarism.
Respond fully and concisely.
Length requirements vary by question and are detailed below.
Responses must be completed before submitting your application.
All submissions are scanned using plagiarism detection software. Plagiarism is considered a cheating violation within the Honor Code and will not be tolerated in the admissions process.
Required short-answer essay question
Instructions: Answer the following question in 100 words.What are your post-MBA career goals? Share with us your first-choice career plan and your alternate plan.
What’s your professional direction? And if you cannot progress in your career in the most direct way, what is another way of reaching your desired destination? Since you are dealing with a 100-word maximum, you will have to think long before you start drafting and then write succinctly to get your point across.
Required essay #1 (25 random things about yourself)
The ‘Team Fuqua’ spirit and community is one of the things that sets the MBA experience apart, and it is a concept that extends beyond the student body to include faculty, staff, and administration. Please share with us “25 Random Things” about you. The Admissions Committee wants to get to know YOU – beyond the professional and academic achievements listed in your resume and transcript. Share with us important life experiences, your hobbies, achievements, fun facts, or anything that helps us understand what makes you who you are.Your list will be limited to 2 pages (750 words maximum). Please present your response in list form, numbered 1 to 25. Some points may be brief, while others may be longer.
Have some fun with this list. It certainly allows for a more creative approach than most essay prompts permit. Note that the question asks you to go “beyond the professional and academic achievements listed in your resume and transcript.” So, you can list your Pez collection or perhaps your brief membership in a rock band, or the fact that you took violin from ages 6 to 18, your membership in a gospel choir, your volunteer work in a hospital, your needlepoint, your favorite recipe or photo. Gosh – the list is endless. Just let it reflect you. Think of this list as an introduction to potential friends.
Watch: Shari Hubert, Associate Dean of Admissions at Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business on How to answer the 25 Random Things Question:
https://youtu.be/Vzbd3AdrLE8
Required essay #2 (The Fuqua community and you)
Fuqua prides itself on cultivating a culture of engagement. Our students enjoy a wide range of student-led organizations that provide opportunities for leadership development and personal fulfillment, as well as an outlet for contributing to society. Our student-led government, clubs, centers, and events are an integral part of the student culture and to the development of leaders.
The describes its fundamental mission as promoting human health, with an emphasis on leadership and clinical care. It is looking for students with a strong background in the fundamentals of science who want to apply that work in a clinical setting. The school’s curriculum emphasizes early patient contact along with full integration of the sciences.Because the Tufts medical school is focused on classes where there is a dynamic environment with a great deal of peer-to-peer work, you should emphasize your ability to lead and contribute to a medical school class in your application.
Tufts Medical School secondary application essay questions
Tufts secondary essay #1
Do you wish to include any comments (in addition to those already provided in your AMCAS application) to the Admissions Committee at Tufts University School of Medicine? Please explain briefly. (1000 characters)
You can use this space to write about anything not in the AMCAS. Be sure you do not repeat your personal statement. This is a good place to indicate anything specific about Tufts or about your personal background that relates to your med school application. Some applicants use this space to write about a personal experience that is particularly relevant and not included elsewhere in their application. Others write about a personal circumstance, an opportunity or job offer that arose at some point after they submitted the AMCAS primary application.
This is also a great place to say why you want to attend Tufts Medical School.
Tufts secondary essay #2
Please briefly describe your plans for the coming year. Include in this explanation if you will be a student, working, conducting research, volunteering, etc. (1000 characters)
A thousand characters is approximately 200 words – not a lot. Discuss what you plan to do in the upcoming year that most shows your fit with Tufts’ vision, mission, and values. If you are a rising senior, will you have any leadership positions? What do you hope to accomplish in those roles? What research, if any, will you conduct? What community service will you do? Where will you participate as a clinician?
If you are taking a gap year, show, as discussed in this Admissions Straight Talk episode, that it’s going to be a growth year. What will you accomplish at work? How will you immerse yourself in different populations? Will you work as a scribe (excellent clinical exposure)? Will you participate in a research project? Be included as an author?
Highlight plans that demonstrate your commitment to medicine as Tufts sees it and that indicate that you will be a valuable member of the school’s next incoming class.
Tufts secondary essay #3
How might you contribute to the diversity of the student body of Tufts University School of Medicine? (1000 characters)
For this question, you should consider diversity in all its forms: race, ethnicity, language, family background, economic circumstances, education, gender identity, sexuality, ability, and past experience. Consider how you might interact with a diverse group of medical students and contribute to your class. It is not enough to simply say that you are diverse; you need to explain how that makes you a more appealing applicant. If you are struggling to come up with ways to describe your individuality, I encourage you to interpret the question broadly and explain how your experiences make you a unique and worthwhile candidate who is going to contribute a special background, perspective, or experience to Tuft’s class.
Tufts secondary essay #4
Given how the COVID-19 pandemic has altered the world these past few years, please contextualize how your experiences have been affected which might include your personal, professional and educational journey. (1000 characters)
It is true, COVID-19 derailed the majority of volunteer work, shadowing, academic research, internships and MCAT plans for medical school applicants. The good news, though,
The GMAT is one of the greatest challenges that many people face on the road to their MBA acceptance, but it doesn’t have to be. For many, the anxiety surrounding the GMAT is due to it being a largely misunderstood challenge. Contrary to what you might think, the GMAT represents an opportunity to illustrate your creativity and improve your critical and creative thinking skills, not just revise your knowledge of high school math and grammar. When properly preparing for the exam you’ll develop:
new ways to approach solving problems of all sorts
novel techniques for organizing and characterizing information
the ability to curate your own thought process to become a more effective thinker
With this in mind, I’d like to discuss five key points to help you get into the correct mindset for a successful (read: transformative) and low-stress GMAT preparation experience.
- You are not your GMAT.
Many people use their GMAT score to define their abilities across a range of fields, their value as an applicant, or, even more insidiously, in a greater self-esteem context.
You are not your GMAT!
Your GMAT score doesn’t represent how smart you are or how capable you are as a person, student, or professional. It certainly doesn’t deliver the distinct mix of characteristics that make you, well, you. What admissions committees are seeking when they look at your GMAT score is a set of skills that are valuable in a number of ways (more on this later), but tying your self-worth up in a number is perilous, to say the least.
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Putting the self-esteem aspect aside for a moment, identifying yourself with your GMAT means that you are giving short shrift to who you are as a person outside of a testing environment - you know who I’m talking about, the badass who has already achieved so much and is on track for so much more. There is no need to put additional pressure on yourself to perform well on the GMAT to prove to yourself, or to your family, friends, or an admissions committee how “valuable” you are, how smart you are, or how capable you are.
From our perspective as teachers, we also see this occur frequently in the other direction, with tutors who apply to work with us. They define themselves by their GMAT success rather than their ability as educators. We reject many potential tutors out of hand, despite their having a 770+ score, because a score is simply a number on a piece of paper; we seek people who understand others, are strong communicators, and who are always growing as educators.
Takeaway: By focusing on your score, rather than developing stronger critical and creative thinking skills, you’re missing the point of the GMAT.
- The GMAT is both easier and harder than you think.
I know this sounds counterintuitive, but bear with me.
The stigma of the GMAT - that it’s a terribly difficult exam - affects the performance of most test takers. This hyperbole can cause you to freeze up and underperform. The people who make the GMAT out to be more difficult than it is, in the end, hold themselves back by placing it on a pedestal and treating it with too much reverence.
The GMAT is certainly an exceptionally challenging exam that will push you to your limits. There is no mistaking that. Further, it compares you to your peers - people who have similar levels of skill and experience, hence gaining a competitive edge seems nearly impossible without working harder. However, because most people make it out to be harder than it is, they end up holding themselves back.
Conversely, the GMAT is easier than you think because it rewards informality and creative thinking, especially on the math side. A successful GMATter can use intuition and clear, logical reasoning in order to solve the most intractable problems.
Because of this seeming dichotomy, test takers bring to the exam a paradigm of thought that is very restrictive.
Our consultants receive a lot of questions from clients about applying to MBA programs through The Consortium for Graduate Study in Management. I’ve heard myths that suggest that applying to one (or more) of the 22 Consortium schools through The Consortium’s application is disadvantageous. But as the former director at two Consortium schools, I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth — provided you meet The Consortium’s minimum qualifications.
Though the requirements, participating schools, and corporate partners have changed over The Consortium’s 57-year history, not only is the organization the best deal in town but it also gives its members an alumni network that extends throughout the 22 member schools.
Jump to Can the Consortium Help You Get Accepted and Fund Your MBA? - podcast Episode 532
The Consortium history and mission
Initially, The Consortium provided opportunities for young African-American men to have a fair chance at rising up the corporate ladder via the MBA. Later, The Consortium added Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, and women to its mix. Membership came along with the fellowship.
However, after the Supreme Court decided the Gratz v. Bollinger and Grutter v. Bollinger cases, The Consortium opened its doors to offer membership to selected applicants that further The Consortium’s mission to promote the “inclusion in global business education and leadership . . . of African Americans, Hispanic Americans and Native Americans.” Members do not need to belong to one of these groups but must demonstrate the mission through community and professional action and impact. Thus, membership is no longer race based but rather mission driven. Applicants must also demonstrate the ability to succeed in a Consortium member school’s MBA program.
Consortium member benefits
Like the undergraduate Common App, candidates can apply to up to six schools with only one application for a fraction of the cost that the candidate would incur by applying to each school separately. The Consortium membership grants the candidate access to the orientation and corporate partners. Many members receive internship offers before the start of school.
To summarize the benefits:
Applicants can use a single application for up to six schools at one low cost.
Members gain access to a vast alumni network of 22 schools, including mentorship from among the approximately 9,000 Consortium alumni (formal or informal).
Students gain access to corporate sponsors at orientation if selected as a member.
If selected as a fellow, students receive full tuition and a stipend.
READ: The Consortium Application: Tips for Your CGSM Essays >>
Consortium member schools
Consortium Member SchoolAverage GMAT Score (Class of 2024)Average Undergraduate GPA (Class of 2024)
Carnegie Mellon University, Tepper School of Business7023.33
Columbia University, Columbia Business School7293.60
Cornell University, Samuel Curtis Johnson Graduate School of Management7103.30
Dartmouth College, Tuck School of Business7263.52
Emory University, Goizueta Business School 7003.38
Georgetown University, McDonough School of Business6973.29
Indiana University-Bloomington, Kelley School of Business6853.38
New York University, Leonard N. Stern School of Business7333.62
Indiana University-Bloomington, Kelley School of Business6853.38
New York University, Leonard N. Stern School of Business7333.62
Rice University, Jones Graduate School of Business7023.43
Stanford University, Stanford Graduate School of Business7373.76
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Kenan-Flagler Business School 7063.43
The University of Texas at Austin, McCombs School of Business7063.48
University of California, Berkeley, Haas School of Business7293.64
University of California, Los Angeles, UCLA Anderson School of Management711NA*
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor,
Most higher education institutions promote diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) as core values attached to their institutional mission, because doing so is crucial for ensuring a welcoming and inclusive campus environment for all students, faculty, and staff. Best practice recommends that DEI senior officers answer directly to a university or college’s president, thereby ensuring that DEI concerns have representation and an enduring voice in leadership matters. Schools’ DEI officers design and implement strategies to promote diversity and inclusion, address issues of bias and discrimination, and develop policies and practices that promote equity and fairness on campus. Some schools pair DEI initiatives with Title IX initiatives (Title IX assures gender equity on college campuses) and antidiscrimination human resources procedures related to disability, age, pay, gender, and hiring practices.
DEI initiatives promote social justice as a value that is actionable; decisions are made and actions taken to remodel institutional infrastructure so that it aligns with improving all students’ well-being, safety, access to opportunity, and rights to an education for an increasingly diverse student population. DEI also promotes cultural diversity via campus activities such as multicultural events, celebrations, and programs built with diversity and inclusion at their core.
However, as of June 30, 2023, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on a suit brought against Harvard and the University of North Carolina in which an organization named Students for Fair Admissions alleged that both universities discriminated against Asian Americans, a minority group that is largely represented in higher education. The Supreme Court decided that higher education must not consider race in the admissions process. Let us look for a moment at the history of this workplace and educational equity issue.
In the early 1960s, the civil rights movement advocated for equal rights and opportunities for marginalized groups, particularly African Americans. In 1961, President John F. Kennedy issued Executive Order 10925, which introduced the concept of affirmative action in the workforce. This order required government contractors to ensure that individuals were employed without regard to their race, color, religion, or national origin. It aimed to promote equal opportunity and to address discrimination in the workplace.
This executive order laid the foundation for future affirmative action policies, taking steps to eliminate discriminatory practices and promote equal employment opportunities. Since 1961, higher education policies and practices have aimed to increase access and opportunities for underrepresented groups in admissions. Colleges and universities began to examine demographic deterrents to education and opportunity, turning them into favorable factors in the admissions process to promote diversity and address historical inequality. By considering an applicant’s background, universities can acknowledge and address the systemic barriers and disadvantages certain racial and ethnic groups face, ultimately striving for a more equitable education system.
In the 2016 Supreme Court case Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin, the affirmative action policy of the university was challenged. The court ultimately ruled in favor of the university, affirming the constitutionality of its admissions process. The case highlighted the positive impact of affirmative action on promoting diversity and educational benefits. The University of Texas argued that considering race to create a diverse student body enriched the learning environment. The school presented evidence that its affirmative action policy had contributed to increased minority enrollment and improved campus climate.
Until recently, diversity in higher education was a compelling state interest, recognizing the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including improved critical thinking,
In this episode, Rohit Sharma, Sr. Vice President of Global Higher Education and Workskills, explains how ETS made the GRE almost two hours shorter (without cutting any sections) and why that’s a good thing for test takers - and institutions. [SHOW SUMMARY]
Are you wondering what the new shorter GRE is about? What does it mean for you as applicants and test takers? This episode is for you! We’ll be discussing the new shorter GRE format and how it affects test-takers with ETS’ Sr. Vice President of Global Higher Education and Workskills.
An interview with Rohit Sharma,Sr. Vice President of Global Higher Education and Workskills at ETS. [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 531st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Today's show is all about test prep, and I'd like to start with a quick one-question quiz. What is the paradox at the heart of graduate school admissions? Well, I'll tell you. You have to show that you belong at your target programs and simultaneously that you stand out in the applicant pool. Doing so is paradoxical and challenging. Accepted's free download, Fitting in and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance.
Our guest today is Rohit Sharma, Senior Vice President of Global Higher Education and Workskills at the Educational Testing Service, better known as ETS. Rohit earned his bachelor's in engineering from IIT Kanpur in India and his MBA from UVA Darden. He has worked as a consultant for Boston Consulting Group and for over 20 years he has contributed internationally in management and product design and development in the fields of digital skills training, assessment, and higher education.
Rohit, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:03]
Thank you, Linda. Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to speak with you today. So GRE is undergoing some transformations, right? ETS is giving us a whole new GRE. How is the new GRE going to be structured? [2:07]
Great, thank you. First of all, the GRE is going to be similar in many ways to the old one in terms of having the same three sections that we have always had, which is the verbal reasoning, the quantitative reasoning, as well as the analytical writing section. So those three things remain unchanged. But the big news here is that the time that the test used to take previously, which was close to four hours, is going to be reduced in half to just shy of two hours. So that's a big change that we are making.
And then I assume you're not sacrificing any kind of predictability or validity to the test in cutting it in half. [2:51]
Of course, that was almost like I left it hanging there so that you asked me that, but it goes without saying-
I fell for it. [3:09]
Yes, no, thank you. But it goes without saying that as you know, ETS has a very long history of over 75 years that we have been around, and one of the things that we are so proud of is the research that goes behind all of our assessments. So the validity, the reliability of these measures, these assessments, the constructs that they measure continues to remain the same as it was before.
So the total time is much less. You still have the same three sections. So is each section just basically cut in half? [3:32]
So there's a couple of things that we have done. So in many of these assessments, Linda, historically, there's always been an unscored section. And before the world of generative AI, as well as other technological advances that was needed to make sure that we can test out items that we can then put in future tests because these items have been tested in a particular way.
So first of all, we remove that unscored section so that itself produces a certain amount of time. The second thing we did was in the longer version of the test, which is the current one, there was a break in the midway for around 10 minutes.
In this episode, Professor of Medicine and Medical Education and Associate Dean of Admissions at the Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth University explains the draw of the close-knit community at Dartmouth, why the school doesn’t send secondaries to applicants with an MCAT below 503, and how to ace Geisel’s secondary. [SHOW SUMMARY]
Are you dreaming of becoming a doctor at an Ivy league medical school, one of the best in the country? Do you want to learn how to ace the admissions process at Dartmouth Geisel School of Medicine? Tune in to this episode of Admissions Straight Talk, where I interview Dr. Roshini Pinto-Powell, the Associate Dean for Admissions at Geisel, and get her insider tips on what makes a successful applicant.
An interview with Dr. Roshini Pinto-Powell, Associate Dean of Admissions at Geisel and Professor of Medicine. [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 530th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to a dream medical school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Med School Admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications and your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Our guest today is Dr. Roshini Pinto-Powell. Dr. Pinto-Powell grew up and earned her bachelor's degree in chemistry in India. She earned her MD at the Ross School of Medicine. She did two fellowships in infectious disease and returned with her husband to Dartmouth where she actually focused on general internal medicine. She also found that she loved teaching, and today is a professor of medicine and a professor of medical education as well as co-director of On Doctoring at Dartmouth Geisel, Vice Chair of Clinical Affairs at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center, . Aand most importantly for our conversation today, aAssociate dDean of aAdmissions at Geisel.
Dr. Pinto-Powell, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:08]
Thank you.
Can you give us an overview of the MD program at Geisel, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:17]
I think one of the things I'd start off by saying is that Geisel is a small school, relatively. We have 92 students, 90 MD students, two MD/ PhD students, and this is the largest we've ever been. We were a much smaller school, 65 students, until fairly recently, about a decade and a half to two decades ago, and then have grown to 92. I mentioned that because I think that's one of its distinctive elements. It's small enough that in some ways, I would say, we are the “Cheers” of schools where everybody knows your name and everybody's glad you came. And if you ask any of our students or staff or administrators, what is their favorite thing, they will say the sense of community, the sense of feeling like people know you. Our students don't graduate without personally knowing more than 10-15 faculty, have been to their homes, watched their dogs or animals and things like that. I think that makes it just a wonderful place to learn to be a doctor.
Sounds like a very close-knit community. [3:35]
I believe so.
On the website, it mentioned several times that the medical school has a real determination to graduate what they called “the complete physician.” What does that mean, “the complete physician,” and does it tie into the community that you were just talking about? [3:41]
It does. It absolutely does. I'm really glad you asked the question because that is our tagline. My silly joke usually is, well, I don't know any medical school in this country or any other that's trying to graduate the incomplete physician.
What we mean at Geisel when we talk about the complete physician is somebody who's totally grounded in the foundational science. I think that first point is really relevant and important today. I think we all know that most medical schools have a pass/fail pre-clinical curriculum to stimulate collegi...
In this episode, the Assistant Dean of Enrollment at Fordham Law School shares his tips on how to present a winning application. [SHOW SUMMARY]
Located in the heart of Manhattan, Fordham Law provides excellent ties to business, as well as options for public law. Does that sound intriguing? Tune into this episode where Fordham Law School’s Assistant Dean of Enrollment describes how to capitalize on this opportunity.
An interview with Stephen Brown, Fordham Law School’s Assistant Dean of Enrollment. [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 529th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or perhaps later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Law School Admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Stephen Brown, Assistant Dean of Enrollment at Fordham Law. Prior to Fordham Law, Dean Brown worked at NYU Law in financial aid and administration, ending his time as director of student finance, strategic planning, and institutional research. 22 years ago, he returned to Fordham to work in law school financial aid and admissions. He has a special interest in introducing admissions, financial aid, and finance topics to students and new professionals, and in mentoring.
Much of his student work has revolved around financial literacy education. Dean Brown is a frequent conference and Bar Association presenter on topics from law school admissions, financing law school, federal aid policy, financial literacy, and planning. He has served on various committees of student financial aid administrators, and the LSAC, and he's also received numerous awards, including the prestigious CLEO EDGE Award for Diversity.
Dean Brown reports that his first career in mental health counseling prepared him well for the ever-changing, often stressful, world of law school administration. He earned his bachelor's in psychology and philosophy and his M.S.Ed in counseling and student services from Fordham, followed by his EdM in counseling from Teachers College at Columbia University.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Fordham Law J.D. program? [2:32]
Fordham is in New York City. We tend to think of it as the capital of the world. That gives our students lots of opportunities. We're a large school. Some people think that’s a bad thing, but it allows us to have a large faculty. We have 84 full-time faculty. We have more than 100 adjuncts who are leaders in the bench and bar, mostly in New York. So we can have lots of specialties and programs and give our students choices, both for concentrating and focusing their education, and also exploring other areas of the law that they may not have been thinking of.
Is Fordham’s House System physical houses? [5:20]We have lots of programs. We have top-rated programs and a variety of ratings and rankings. We have amazing alumni, and we have a lot of them. They are very strong in the New York market and that's an advantage for our students.
The other real advantage we have is the House System. Most of our students are first-generation lawyers or even are first-generation college grads. And the House System allows our students to have another hour a week where they’re meeting outside of class. It's introducing you to faculty who teach first-year students but not in your section. They're working with other first-year students, so they understand some of that stress. You'll get other financial literacy and career services programming and that comes into Houses. You'll meet upper-level students and mentors. And you'll meet alumni who are there to support our students.
We moved to a new building here eight years ago.
In this episode, the Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management at Columbia Business School explains why there isn’t one right answer to the application essay - but there is a true answer. [SHOW SUMMARY]
Are you interested in an MBA that has the goal of preparing you for a career in innovation and entrepreneurship? With a record of excellence and a powerful alumni network? Columbia Business School is known for its cluster system of classes that fosters innovation amongst students. Sounds interesting? Listen to this episode where CBS’ Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management provides insight on how to get accepted to its elite MBA programs.
An interview with Clare Norton, Columbia Business School’s Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management. [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 528th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted's MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment of your chances, but tips on how to improve them. Plus it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on a Admissions Straight Talk, Clare Norton, Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management at Columbia Business School. After earning her bachelor's at Notre Dame in Indiana, Clare became a New Yorker through and through. She started her career as a trader with Citigroup and then moved into admissions first at Hunter College and then at CUNY and Columbia's Mailman School of Public Health. Along the way, she also earned her master's in higher education administration from Baruch College. She joined Columbia Business School in January as Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management.
Congratulations on your new position and welcome, Clare, to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:48]
Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Can you provide an overview of Columbia's MBA program for listeners who may not be that familiar with it? [1:59]
I think to me, the key point about the Columbia MBA program is actually the flexibility, is that we do really think of it as something that can be crafted and changed to meet the needs of individual students. I think that that's part of what makes it so exciting is the opportunity to understand about yourself, what your gaps are and what your strengths are, and to really craft an experience that is personalized to get you where you'd like to go.
We, or Columbia, have several different kinds of entry points to that MBA. So we have a full-time MBA entry in August. We have a full-time MBA entry in January, and then we also have a number of Executive MBA programs. EMBA programs on both a Friday-Saturday, a Saturday, and a global program that's a dual degree with London School of Business. So a lot of opportunities to come in and do the MBA.
This year we have also created a brand new program called MBAxMS, which is a dual degree program with our School of Engineering. So our first cohort will start with us this August.
What's new at Columbia Business School in terms of the program changes to the program, innovations to the program, you mentioned, the MBAxMS; anything else you'd like to highlight? [3:23]
I'd like to share a little more, about XMS than what I said, which is that it's really a program that equips students with both the management skills and the science and technology core that should enable them to move seamlessly from classroom to product development to large scale innovation, and ultimately help create and grow companies and drive change.
So it's really something that covers those core engineering courses in the curriculum on the areas of tough tech, applied science foundations, but also the essential business courses in leadership and strategy, finance, economics, marketing. So I think it's a really exciting program,
Thanks for joining me for the 527th episode of Admissions Straight Talk.
Are you applying to a program that requires a situational judgment test (SJT)? Currently, many top med schools require applicants to submit scores from the Casper, an online, open-response SJT offered by Acuity Insights.
This week, we are airing an encore of a popular and timely episode: Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know.
At Accepted we have fielded many questions from med school applicants.
How is something as subjective as judgment graded?
Do med schools receive the raw score?
What is the difference between Casper and DUET, another offering from Acuity Insights?
Does Casper complement or replace existing aptitude tests?
In this episode, Dr. Kelly Dore, Co-Founder & VP of Science and Innovation at Acuity Insights and Adjunct Professor at McMaster University provides answers to all these questions and more. A video recording of the interview with Dr. Dore is also available on Accepted’s YouTube channel. Don’t forget to subscribe to Admissions Straight Talk wherever you get your favorite podcasts because we have an exciting summer line up of interesting guests coming up this summer.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Relevant Links:
Casper Test
Duet
The Computer-Based Assessment for Sampling Personal Characteristics (CASPer)
Situational Judgement Test (SJT): Everything You Need to Know
Med School Acceptance Calculator
Related Shows:
Get Accepted to the Michigan State’s MD Program - Episode 522
Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond - Episode 523
Get Accepted to the Medical College of Wisconsin - Episode 511
MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require? - Episode 499
Active Learning and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine - Episode 494
What was it like to be an ER doctor at the beginning of COVID? - Episode 493
An Inside Look at The Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine - Episode 482
Deep Dive into Penn Perelman School of Medicine: An Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean for Admissions - Episode 455
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In this episode, the founder and former Director of San Francisco State University Postbac Programs and Accepted consultant since 2015 explains why the fastest way to medical school is slowly and carefully, and explores the advantages and disadvantages of applying to med school from a postbac program. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you in a postbac program or specialized masters program? Are you wondering what are the nuances of applying to medical school from a postbac program? You’re in luck, because that’s the topic of today’s episode – along with a healthy dose of excellent med school admissions advice for any med school applicant.
An interview with Dr. Barry S. Rothman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Biology, founder of SFSU Postbac Programs, and Accepted consultant for 8 years. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 526th episode of Admission Straight Talk. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it’s all free.
Our guest today, Dr. Barry Rothman, is the former health professions advisor and director of San Francisco State University’s pre-health profession certificate program which serves pre-med, pre-dental, pre-nursing, and other pre-healthcare students who are preparing themselves to apply to graduate programs in healthcare. This episode focuses on medical school applications, but since 2015, Dr. Rothman has helped Accepted’s clients in all aspects of the application process to medical school and specifically those both applying to postbac programs and applying from postbac programs.
Dr. Rothman, welcome to Admission Straight Talk. [1:54]Great, Linda, good to be here and good to have been part of the Accepted family for now eight years.
Glad to have you as part of the Accepted family. How did you get involved in postbac programs and helping applicants from postbac programs apply successfully to medical school? [2:04]Wow, what a story. At San Francisco State, I’ve had three careers. Started out very research oriented, leading a postdoctoral fellowship at UC San Francisco, and then transitioning to SF State as a new faculty member and conducting lab research in a lab at SF State. Which I was quite successful at, but it didn’t really make me super happy, and I decided to stop doing research and start teaching. I had quite a lot of experience teaching already, and so that made me happier. And then around 20 years into my time at SF State, my dean approached me and said, “How’d you like to be the health professions advisor?” And I thought, sure, it’ll be an easy thing, no big deal.
And so I naively said yes, and it took over my life. I just loved doing it. I loved working with the students. I actually had been teaching a molecular medicine class, so I was interested in medicine anyhow, and I just took it from there. The students were wonderful to deal with. We created a program that required a lot of political maneuvering through the academic senate, and after a whole year of processing we had a postbac program, a newly formed from zero postbac program.
What are the different kinds of postbac programs, and whom are they for? [3:50]Sure. Well, actually there’s a bunch of different kinds. First of all, you can do a do-it-yourself postbac program, or you can enter a structured postbac program. So in do-it-yourself, you figure out the classes you take. You could take them at one or more universities as long as it’s a four-year university, and you need some kind of advising. And Accepted can provide that kind of advising for a do-it-yourself postbac program. As you might guess, a DIY postbac program is less expensive than a structured program. Structured programs as you might guess offer structure, and so there’s a bunch of people who are running the program, there’s faculty who participate in the program, and there’s usually fellow pre-meds. Those are mainly the population that are in these structured programs. So that’s one big division, do-it-yourself versus structured.
There’s other postbac programs that focus on disadvantaged students and/or minority students versus a broad population. So that’s another way of dividing postbac programs. Also, some postbac programs have linkage programs where you can immediately get into a medical school that has a linkage. You’re not guaranteed that, but it’s an advantage to have that. Some postbac programs don’t have linkage programs. Some postbac programs are at medical schools, some aren’t. Some are very expensive, some are less expensive. Some offer financial aid as an undergraduate. Some offer financial aid as a graduate student, and graduate financial aid is actually better. During undergraduate times you’re eating into the lifetime maximum that you’re allowed to have for federal loans. And so you may have used all that money up by the time you get to a postbac program.
So having undergrad financial aid is both less in terms of the absolute amount, and perhaps zero if you’ve used up your undergraduate financial aid allocation for federal money. Graduate financial aid is better, it’s a whole new pot of money. Of course, do-it-yourself postbac programs don’t have financial aid, but the total cost might be less anyhow because of the lower tuition. So there are many ways of dividing postbac programs. I think I’ve given you the main ones.
The two other divisions that I thought of would be postbac programs for academic enhancers and postbac programs for career changers. [6:31]Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Thank you for reminding me of that. So career changers are people who are starting out taking the academics for medical school. They haven’t had any. So they may have been an international relations major or journalism major, et cetera, et cetera, and they have decided after being an undergrad that, gee, I want to become a physician. Many career changers are children of physicians who want to prove that they are making their decision independently of their parents. And so they often go into areas very different from medicine and often do quite well, but then they decide, gee, being a physician maybe isn’t such a bad idea and maybe I’ve proven my independence. And so then they’ll go into a postbac program. So they’re called career changers and their curriculum is mostly prereqs for medical school, although they do need to take a few upper division electives as well.
Academic enhancers, and there’s vastly more academic enhancers than career changers. Academic enhancers, as you might guess from the name, need to improve their academic record. Many undergraduates start out having difficulty in their coursework and science majors and math majors in particular have difficulty early on. And so their academic records improve, but perhaps if not enough, if it’s still not strong enough by the time you graduate, then you might want to go into an academic enhancer postbac program. Also, academic enhancer programs are good for first time applicants and they can be particularly good for re-applicants as a way to show that you have made some serious steps in terms of improving your record.
What about specialized master’s programs? When you finish a postbac program, you don’t get an additional degree, you’ll get a transcript. [8:47]Well, some postbac programs actually could give you a master’s degree.
There’s a blur between special master’s and postbac, but the, I guess, super special master’s programs are created to help people get into medical school. That’s their job. And for some applicants, especially applicants who are not disadvantaged and haven’t had a lot of barriers, the medical school application process can be extremely competitive. And this might be their last way of showing themselves to be an unusual applicant or a better applicant. So special masters programs are quite pricey, often around $50,000 a year. So that’s a huge amount of debt in addition to medical school tuition.
And undergrad. [9:59]Oh yes. And then the undergrad tuition as well, yes.
And postbac programs that do not confer a master’s, what is the typical cost for them? And I’m not talking about the structured postbac programs. [10:05]Right. The one that I ran cost about $600 a unit, and so our students taking 12 units would pay $7,200, something like that in a semester. So maybe $14,000 a year or something like that. That’s a lot less than $50,000.
And many postbac programs have some kind of loans available. They rarely have scholarships, but they do have loans, federal loans available. And for some people who can’t qualify for federal loans, you can get a bank loan. And even though federal loans sound really wonderful, they have very high interest rates such as 7 or 8%.
Higher than banks, or the banks are more? [11:00]I think the banks might be a little bit more, but it’s not like the federal loans are a real bargain. They can be quite pricey in terms of interest.
And it does add up. [11:13]Yes, it does. And then there’s subsidized loans and unsubsidized loans. So a subsidized loan lets you defer the interest payments until you’re in a position to actually make some money. Whereas unsubsidized loans, you’re paying interest from the get-go.
That would really add up for sure. [11:33]Yes, yes.
https://youtu.be/S_flnBgH4PsBefore we talk about the nuances of applying from postbac programs, what qualifications do all successful applicants to medical school need? [11:37]So first of all, you need strong academic preparation. You need to have a good academic record. And if it had some problems early on that’s fine, but you have to show that you’ve repaired it. And I think what most med schools want to see is at least two consecutive years of very high GPA in the sciences. You need strong MCAT scores. MCAT is a national exam, it compares everybody, so it’s one way that med schools can compare everybody that’s independent of grade point average. And third, you need considerable clinical and social justice experience. You need to know what you’re getting into and you need to show that you actually care about the health of our society. Medical schools are organs of social change, and they really put a lot of emphasis in choosing people who want to see changes occur, changes for the better. In terms of the application, the application needs to be consistent.
Your biographical information, even though it might seem trivial, you need to make sure that all the little pieces of it fit together. For example, if you say that your family had very little income and then you put that they paid for 100% of your tuition, it might sound a little strange. How could they do that if they were making $14,000 a year? So you want to make sure that the biographical part is well written and internally consistent. You need to have thoughtfully written experiences and a personal statement, and really well-written and covering areas that medical schools want to know about. You need to have supportive, well-chosen letters, and you need to choose appropriate schools given your statistics.
That’s a fantastic overview. What about research? [13:45]Research is good and some med schools are much more research oriented, but many aren’t. And I would say research is not absolutely required.
More of a nice to have? [14:02]It’s nice to have, but to do it just because you’re checking off a box would probably make you miserable doing it that way. I know I’ve done many, many years of research, it can be very tedious and so you really need to be interested in it to do it. So I would say do research if you’re interested in it. If you’re not and you’re just checking a box, maybe don’t do it.
That’s pretty clear. [14:30]So there’s two kinds of research and maybe one kind is more appealing than the other. Two broad areas, one is wet lab research where you actually do experiments with solutions in biological materials or chemical materials or perhaps physical materials. And the other is data-oriented research, where you crunch numbers and everything’s done on a computer. So they’re very different, and one kind appeals to some people and the other kind to other people.
What about clinical research? [15:01]Oh, yeah. Thank you. Clinical research of course would be great, and many students, especially postbacs can get jobs in medical schools or in universities where they’re helping to manage clinical trials. So here in San Francisco, we’re quite lucky that we have University of California San Francisco, we have Stanford nearby, and we have UC Berkeley nearby, not a med school, but the other two are med schools. And many undergraduates and postbacs can get jobs there. And for the med school, they’re a bargain because they can pay them modest amounts of money and they get highly skilled people who are running these clinical trials. So yes, thank you for reminding me. Clinical research is also another way to go.
What are the advantages of applying to medical school from a postbac program? [15:58]Well, I think most postbac programs have good reputations with the medical schools. And so in a way, if you get the postbac programs imprimatur, then the med schools think that, well, you’ve probably been carefully selected and chosen and maybe tuned up to be a better applicant. You’re in a program with other pre-meds, so the basis of comparison is a little different. They’re not comparing you to every undergraduate, they’re comparing you to a bunch of pre-meds.
Pre-med or to med students? [16:43]postbac programs.
Are postbac programs ever with first year med students? [16:48]Some are. So if you’re at a med school, obviously, in some postbac programs, you can take classes with med students. And then that’s a really good comparison because they’re actually comparing you to usually first year med students. So that’s a huge advantage.
What are the challenges of applying to medical school from postbac programs? What are the difficulties, disadvantages? [17:10]Well, some postbac programs can be rather competitive. When I designed my postbac program, since I was able to design it from zero, I wanted to emphasize cooperation, people getting along, and also having a broad population of students, both disadvantaged and highly resourced. So that was a real treat to do that, but some programs can be rather competitive and maybe not so good for you. As competitive as medical school is, at the end of the day medicine is a cooperative venture, and learning how to cooperate is a wonderful skill. And so I would put emphasis on that. And in fact, not only cooperate, but mutually support each other. I think that’s the way to go, and that’s the way I designed my program.
Would you say that having had that teamwork, exposure in a postbac program would definitely be an advantage both as a human being and as a medical school applicant? [18:11]Yes. And postbacs understand each other, understand the craziness of applying to medical school and can support each other when family members are wondering what happened to you? Why are you so crazy this year? And it can be very stressful, and it can leak out in unusual ways. Our postbac program actually went a long way to offer stress relief by having psychotherapists involved and also stress handling tools. And if your postbac program doesn’t offer that, it’s really a good time in your life to develop the ability to handle stress because you’re going to be entering a fairly stressful career.
Some postbac programs are two years, but aren’t most one year programs? Is that correct? [19:08]Yes. Yes. Career changers need two years. It’s crazy to do it in one year. I mean, it could be extremely stressful. I’ve seen some students do it though. They just dedicated themselves 110% to the whole academic endeavor.
I’ve quoted you often when you say the fastest way to medical school often is slowly. [19:32]Yes. Slowly and carefully. And I don’t say “often.”
Okay. Period. [19:41]Period.
All right, I’ll correct myself next time I quote you. [19:44]There’s no quick fix there. It’s such a labyrinthine process to get it right. You really need to think about it over a long period of time and also make sure it really fits who you are. Is this the career you want or is it just you want to be an overachiever and look cool? You want to make sure you’re actually choosing your career, any career, as long as it’s consistent with who you are as a person.
Should students count on, assuming they’re in a one-year postbac program (not the career changer programs), should they count on taking a gap year after their postbac program just because of the way the application cycle works? Academic enhancers, I assume would be probably critical. [20:14]Academic enhancers usually take a year.
But they need the grades from that year to apply so they almost have to count on a gap year, don’t they? [20:36]Right. It’s hard to avoid the gap year unless there’s a linkage program.
But some academic enhancers need more time. We had academic enhancers that took two years because their senior year academic record wasn’t so good. And again, med schools want to see a minimum of two years of strong GPA. And we even had a few people there for three years. It was fine.
That’s where they went part-time, wasn’t it? [21:09]Yes. Now, one thing I didn’t discuss was that some postbac programs allow you to be part-time and some absolutely insist you gotta be full-time, don’t get a job, you’re here full-time. In our program, we were flexible because we knew a lot of our students did not get adequate financial aid just through federal loans and so they had to work.
Makes sense. [21:31]And it was fine with us for them to be part-time. So they took longer.
So, yes, I’m a real proponent of gap years. It’s a wonderful time to further enhance your record, to get more clinical experience, to think about what you’re doing, develop your stress handling skills, and maybe even take some more coursework outside of the postbac program.
Or in a different topic that just interests you. [21:57]Yes. Another topic that I think is really important for pre-meds is public health, and med schools really like seeing people who, well, if they have an MPH, that’s wonderful, but have taken some public health coursework. So you understand the social dimension of healthcare, not just the molecular and cellular part of it.
https://youtu.be/srv25QMxpjkHow is the postbac GPA calculated in the overall undergraduate GPA? I know graduate GPAs are viewed differently, they’re a little bit off the grid, but how about the postbac program GPA in the application? [22:21]So the MD and DO applications have this matrix of GPA calculations. And so on the rows they have freshman year, sophomore year, junior year and senior year. So they can see trends through undergraduate. And then a completely separate row is postbac, and another separate row is graduate. So if you’re in a master’s program, it would go into graduate. If you’re in a non master’s it would go into postbac. But every course you take after you graduate, whether you’re in a do-it-yourself or structured program, goes into that postbac bin.
As long as it’s not towards a master’s? [23:19]Right. And that bin is divided into three or four different areas. For MD it’s BCPM, biology, chemistry, physics and math. The other bin is all other, and then the third bin is total. So that’s an advantage because med schools can see directly how much you’ve improved as a postbac, and they see how many units too. So if you have five units as a postbac, even if it’s a 4.0, it’s not very impressive. If you have 40 units, oh, that looks good. 40 units of 3.95 BCPM GPA looks good. You’ve definitely repaired your academic record. For osteopathic schools, they have an extra bin or a couple extra bins. They have BCP, biology, chemistry, physics, they have total science, they have non-science, and then they have total. But it’s the same basic idea.
Can a high postbac GPA make up for so-so or less than desirable MCAT or are they just showing different things? [24:26]No, no, no.
There are three gates to get into medical school and they’re independent of each other. So there’s a lot of I think very confused thinking about, well, if I just do great in the MCAT, my not so good GPA doesn’t matter, or vice versa. And you have to do well in all three gates; which are your academic record, your MCAT score, and your experiences; clinical and social justice. You really need to be superb in all three. So don’t naively think that one will make up for the other.
I sometimes say that the test shows you have the head for the subject matter and the GPA shows you have the ability for sitting and studying and consistent performance. [25:15]And then the clinical experience maybe shows some of your heart.
Heart and that you know what you’re getting into. [25:36]Yes. And especially the social justice experience, I think it’s very important to… Well, it’s not just show it, it’s hopefully you actually feel it and you really want to better our society.
Any last words of advice for applicants both to postbac programs specifically or to medical school from postbac programs, either way, going into the postbac program or coming out of the postbac program? [25:57]Well, I’m going to repeat what you said, and then I said, which is the fastest way to medical school is slowly and carefully. It’s a labyrinthine process. It’s really worth thinking about. There’s no quick fix. Take your time and really do it well. If you do it really well the first time, your chances of getting in will be as high as possible. If you’re a re-applicant, figure out what were the weak parts of your application. Get some help if you need help. And don’t just reflexively reapply the next year. By the time you didn’t get in, you have like three months or four months to get your next application together. And how much change can you be making during that time? Unless you were making the changes from the very beginning of the previous application cycle, you’re not going to have enough time. Med schools really appreciate people being thoughtful and taking time. So taking an extra year in between applications is very impressive and gives you more time to improve.
And makes you that much more improved because you took that time. What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [27:20]I wish you would’ve asked me more about disadvantaged and minority applicants.
Consider it asked. [27:33]Yes. So again, med schools are organs of social change and they’re in a very powerful position. If you think about it, if you become a medical doctor and you come from a disadvantaged background, your socioeconomic situation will likely improve tremendously. And not only will that improve, but most likely your progeny and your grand progeny will also improve that way. So it has a huge multiplicative effect. And so med schools really pay attention to this, but as a disadvantaged applicant, you wonder what’s going on here? Are these people patronizing me? I mean, why are they making such a big deal out of disadvantages? And so I think it’s important to realize that making a big deal out of disadvantages is well-meant and well thought about. Although at times the programs don’t handle it so well because they don’t understand what it’s like being disadvantaged and maybe coming from a minority background.
So it’s really good to be in a supportive environment in a postbac program that really is supportive of people who are from disadvantaged and/or minority backgrounds. And also when you go to med school, you better find some compadres who are like you and support you and make things make sense. Because if you’re a disadvantaged applicant and you wind up in let’s say a med school that has 80% participants who are pretty well off, you might feel rather marginalized. And so it’s really important to find people to bond with who will make you feel safe at your university. And that might be faculty and most likely fellow students as well.
Thank you very much Dr. Rothman. I really appreciate your insight and input. [29:52]Relevant Links:
- Med School Admissions Quiz
- Dr. Barry Rothman Bio and Contact Page
- How to Create Successful Secondary Applications, an on-demand webinar
- The A-Z of Applying to Postbac Programs
- Applying to Medical School with Low Stats: What You Need to Know
Related shows:
- Is a Postbac Program Right for You? – podcast episode 403
- Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond – podcast episode 523
- Get Accepted to the Michigan State’s MD Program – podcast episode 522
- Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know – podcast episode 513
- Get Accepted to the Medical College of Wisconsin – podcast episode 511
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In this episode, the Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern explains Stern’s Change Studio and Frontier Labs, explores what it means to be a Sternie, and gives advice to reapplicants. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you interested in an MBA that has the goal of preparing you to lead in an ever-changing world? Are you considering one- or two-year options? Does being in New York City with all that it offers, appeal to you? Then today’s episode is for you, the new Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern is our guest.
An interview with Lindsay Loyd, the new Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 525th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to actually improve your profile and qualifications and it’s all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Lindsey Lloyd, Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern. Lindsey leads the recruiting and admissions efforts for Stern’s full-time MBA programs, including the two-year, full-time MBA, the focused one-year MBAs, which are the Andre KooTechnology and Entrepreneurship MBA and the Fashion and Luxury MBA. Lindsay has a BA in economics from Washington State University and an MBA from Chicago Booth. Before joining NYU Stern, she had a 13-year career at American Express, where she ultimately became the Vice President of Strategic Engagement Global Commercial Services. She joined NYU Stern in January, 2023.
Lindsey, congratulations on your new role and welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:05]Thanks, Linda. Great to be here.
Can you provide an overview of NYU Stern’s full-time, two-year MBA program? [2:17]So NYU’s two year program, full-time, it’s the classic program that you think of when you hear “MBA.” It is a graduate management education that delivers on both breadth and depth. Year one, you’re going to jump in with launch orientation and then focus on the core requirements, both the required and some picks from our menu. Then have a summer internship, followed by your second year, when you really jump into electives and your specializations.
There are three things that I’d highlight that make Stern special. Firstly being access, and really this is, we are located in the heart of New York City and we fully take advantage of that. We are so connected across businesses and industries, from FinTech to fashion, from media to marketing, you name it, we’ve got Stern alumni there and the beauty is, they’re just a subway right away. So we really are in the heart of the city and take advantage of it.
The next thing that I’d highlight is Stern’s Solutions. So this is our experiential learning opportunities for students, where they’re really jumping in and participating in live business challenges in the moment. This is something that Stern launched in the early two thousands, so this is two decades worth of experience and expansion and development. And lastly, I think Stern MBAs really have the opportunity to customize their experience. So I mentioned specializations earlier, you can pick three from over 20. There are more than 200 electives to choose from, and there are opportunities to study abroad, whether that’s for a semester or for one to two weeks, on a Doing Business In (DBI) international intensive.
The second year is entirely elective, isn’t it? [4:19]Yes, it is.
Since it’s their five year anniversary and there’s increasing interest in one-year MBA programs, can you also provide an overview of the two focused, one-year MBA programs: the Tech MBA and the Luxury and Fashion MBA programs? [4:25]Right. Quite a milestone for those programs.
They are fast, immersive, and indeed, very focused. They run May to May and it’s a lockstep, 52 credit curriculum. It includes a general business core, a specialized industry core, and then Stern Solutions, experiential learning projects that are really geared towards either tech or fashion and luxury. Starting with the tech program, which isSTEM designated, there’s a West Coast immersion experience and there’s a tech advisory board that connects students with prominent professionals and firms and industry. A couple of highlights here. So we’ve seen 120% growth in applications for the tech program since its inception. Another awesome stat is that, most cohorts in this program now, are at or near gender parity, and our 2022 class had 100% employment, three months post-graduation. So really awesome results happening in the tech program.
Similarly, the Fashion and Luxury Program also has an immersion experience. They go to Europe, and past trips have included stops at places like Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Prada. This program also has a council of industry leaders that connect students, because we know that mentorship and networking is really crucial, particularly in these industries. This program has a real small, deeply connected cohort. They all know, love each other, take care of each other,, and it’s a really special thing to see. Their employment rates have also been improving. And in 2022, that class hit 94% employment in three months, post-graduation. So, a high watermark there, as well.
What is the employment rate for the two year MBA? [6:26]98%.
That’s also a really impressive number. [6:39]Immediately versus three months, I’m not sure, but it’s very, very high.
The last entering class had the highest GMAT ever, and the last graduating class had the highest average total compensation ever. Correct? [6:51]That is correct.
What do you attribute that to? [7:00]So first, all credit goes to my predecessor in admissions, Lisa Rios, for recruiting a stellar class that is strong, not just on GMAT, but across all dimensions. As part of our holistic evaluation process, we’re test agnostic, so we accept the GMAT, GRE, EA, MCAT, LSAT, and we also offer a test waiver process. So I think a contributing factor to this high average GMAT is that candidates are figuring out which test works best for them and putting that best foot forward, which I think is a great strategy. We want candidates to submit their strongest application. On the graduate compensation front, I’ve got to tip my hat to my fellow Amex alum and the Head of Career Development at Stern, Brian Ruggiero, for just incredible placement outcomes, amidst the challenges of the pandemic.
As I’ve onboarded at Stern, it’s clear that that team on the employer relation front is incredibly strong, manages and builds great relationships there. And then on the career coaching front, they are incredible and do such a great job of preparing Sternies for all things recruiting. I’ve also been really impressed with the student-led industry groups and the Stern Pay it Forward ethos, part of that IQ+EQ vibe we’ve got going. The second years do so much to help the first years prepare for networking, case interviews, the whole thing, and it’s really incredible to see it in action.
Can you touch on Change Studio? What is it and how do students take advantage of it? [8:29]Yeah, change is really the one constant in life.
And as such, it’s Stern’s mission to prepare our students to embrace change, to dare it, dream it, drive it, as the tagline says. And this mission is really foundational. It’s built into all aspects of the Stern program, from launch, to core and on through to electives. Change Studio is really an umbrella concept that encapsulates the many different co-curricular opportunities that Sternies can take advantage of during their time here, whether that’s through Stern’s Solutions, opportunities through the Office of Diversity and Inclusion, you name it. And these things, in the spirit of change, are constantly evolving based on student demand and market interest.
Is it a class? Is it an ethos? Is it an opportunity? Is it experiential learning? [9:47]I would say, it’s not one particular course or one particular prescriptive set of courses, but it’s a buffet of opportunities that are available for Sternies to choose from.
Any examples you can give me? [10:08]So I would say, Launch would be one of those. I would say, the Consulting Labs. I would say-
Entrepreneurship? [10:17]Yes, Endless Frontier Labs and some of the entrepreneurship opportunities. I would say, Leadership Accelerator, there’s a whole host to choose from. And like I said, this is something, that new programs are evolving all the time.
Where are Stern MBAs finding jobs, in terms of geography and industry, function, all three? [10:33]All three. So I’ll take those from the top.
Geography, it should come as no surprise given our location, that we have very strong placement in New York City and the Northeast. We have candidates that are placed Coast to Coast in the US and also beyond the rest of the world, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Industry-wise, it’s got about a third that go into consulting and a third that go into some kind of broader, diversified financial services, and then good chunks go into tech, healthcare, entertainment, sports and media, CPG and real estate. Functionally, we’ve kind of already accounted for that third, going into consulting, so same story there. A third going into finance functional roles and accounting type functional roles and then the rest, product management, marketing, general management, data analytics, operations. Really, if people are interested in the details, I strongly recommend you go to our website and the employment reports. We post them for both the full-time two year program and the two, one year focus programs.
What does Stern offer want-to-be entrepreneurs? I know you mentioned Frontier Labs. Can you go into that a little bit? [11:49]Stern is a great place for current entrepreneurs and flowering entrepreneurs. We’ve got some excellent elective coursework to choose from, applications and entrepreneurial finance, marketing for entrepreneurs, managing growing companies, and a host more. Endless Frontier Labs specifically, is NYU Stern’s hub for massively scalable tech and life science startups from around the world. These aren’t necessarily Stern startups, they don’t have to be associated with Stern. That program runs from October through May and Stern MBA students have the opportunity to get involved through a companion course that they take, then that allows them to work closely with the EFL founders on business development support. And some actually, have placed into full-time jobs in those companies, after graduation.
Other things that I’d highlight, the Berkeley Center offers startup advising to students and also runs the Annual Entrepreneur’s Challenge that has competitions for seed funding. We also have a program called Stern Works, it’s a fund that supports students who are seeking internships with startups and nonprofits. And then finally, I’ll highlight that we have student-led groups like the Entrepreneurship and Startup Association.
And New York City’s a great place to be an entrepreneur.
What don’t people know about NYU Stern that you would like them to know? What’s a common myth you’d like to bust or something that people just don’t know? [13:23]Yeah, and it came up recently at preview weekend for our next admitted class, but I think upon first glance, it’s really easy to write off IQ+EQ as a marketing phrase, but I’m telling you, it’s the real deal. While I’m new to Stern, I’m not new to working with Sternies. During my tenure at American Express, I worked with and for many, many Stern graduates, both Amex colleagues of mine and also with folks I was sitting across the table from, and Sternies that worked at partners of Amex’s, like Delta Airlines. All of the Sternies I worked with were incredibly smart, when it came to numbers and business strategy and also very people smart. They were generally very kind and humble leaders. They care deeply about leveling up everyone around them and very much, were strongly committed to doing the right thing by people, whether that was colleagues or customers. And that was one of the many reasons that I was really excited to come work at Stern.
https://youtu.be/lEt4uzOnwskDo you see any changes coming to NYU Stern’s application requirements in the upcoming cycle? Let’s break it down a little bit. You already mentioned that Stern will accept whatever test you feel best represents you, and you also offer waivers. Do you plan to change the test policy, allowing all, and what about waivers? [14:43]No change is being made on that front.
What about the waiver option? [15:03]Going to keep it.
What about changes to the essays? [15:08]We changed those not that long ago, and as I’ve onboarded and talked to the team and gotten familiar with the reading process and that kind of thing, we really like our questions. And the sense is, it really helps you understand and get to know an applicant and they lend themselves well to differentiating between an okay application, a good application, and a great application. So we really like our essay questions.
It’s nice when schools have some signature questions that also reflect the culture. [15:39]Exactly.
Do you see ChatGPT as a problem in the application process, specifically regarding the essays? Now I realize yours are a little different because you also have a visual component, at least to one, but how do you view that? [15:46]So ChatGPT is interesting. Amongst my fellow Stern grad program administrators, the Dean of Students who’s a Stern alum, Connor Grennan, has become kind of our Obi-Wan Kenobi of ChatGPT.
He’s a really fun follow on LinkedIn right now, I highly recommend it. He’s always sharing interesting use cases. This functionality is so new and it’s so rapidly changing every day. I will say, I plugged in our change essay prompt to ChatGPT to see what it produced. My conclusion is, I don’t think it’s a good strategy for an applicant looking to put their best forward, to outsource their application essays to ChatGPT. It can create a passable but very generic essay without much in the way of personality. And I think a winning essay is one that’s infused with personality and shows what you uniquely bring to the table.
The one sort of analogy that I’ve heard kicked around, is that ChatGPT is to writing what a calculator is to math and so I think in that vein. Maybe it’s a bit like, I would compare it to bouncing your essays off a friend or maybe an admissions consultant for feedback or using spell check or Grammarly to make sure that you’re not missing any errors. That’s all fine to use those tools, but you still got to do the heavy lifting at the end of the day.
You still have to think. [17:35]Do the self-reflection, do the research and do the thoughtful composition, if you want your essays to be yours.
I was kind of thinking about homemade, baked products, versus a store bought one. [17:44]Yeah. Right, it’s not going to taste the same.
But I have no interest in trying to detect who has used it or not. We’ll see. I mean, there’s also AI that is for image generation. So if someone creates something in Mid Journey and includes it in their pick six, that could be interesting.
I’d be curious to know what prompt to use?
Apparently, maybe ChatGPT has its own style and it’ll be in its own way, detectable, not necessarily by a machine, but by human beings. Conversely, what makes an applicant in an application come alive for you? [18:22]Yeah, I think an application really shines when every piece of it comes together to tell a cohesive narrative and it shows us three main things. Firstly, the applicant has done deep reflection on their values, on what they’re good at and what they maybe have room for improvement. Secondly, they’ve really researched their intended career path, and they can connect the dots from where they’ve been, to what they hope to experience at Stern and where they hope to be after Stern. And then lastly, shows us. How are you going to contribute and be a part of the Stern community, right? When we’re crafting this class, it’s a mosaic; we want to make sure that that Stern Pay it Forward ethos is really running throughout. So we’re curious as to what your contribution is going to be?
What stone are you going to be in that mosaic? [19:28]Exactly. Exactly.
https://youtu.be/KrmeTwo0bVUWhat about the EQ endorsement? How is that different from a letter of recommendation? [19:49]Yeah, I mean, it’s similar, but I think it adds a layer, it adds another dimension. It’s not just the task that you’ve completed or the results that you’ve delivered at work, but this gets into how you did those things? Are you leading with empathy? Are you communicating thoughtfully? Interpersonal skills are just as important as intellectual skills. And we’re looking for exceptional individuals that are self-aware, that are naturally curious, and they’re always working to improve themselves. And I think the EQ endorsement gives us a window into that.
What can an interviewee to NYU Stern expect during the interview? [20:32]Yeah, I think one of the things the pandemic allowed us to do was innovate on how we interview. All of our interviews are 30 minutes in length, conducted via Zoom with members of the admission staff. So it’s not an alumni, not a current student, it’s a member of my staff. So we are delivering, and we like this because it delivers a consistent, equitable candidate experience. And on the flip side, we get consistent and equitable interview reports from it. In terms of expectations, the interview isn’t blind. The person who’s interviewing you is a staff member who will have reviewed your application and your resume. So it’s really going to be a 30-minute conversation to get to know you better, get a sense of your communication style, and understand how a Stern MBA fits into your career journey at this time. And likewise, it’s an opportunity for you to get to know Stern better, that you should take advantage of and ask questions and help us give you more insight into Stern, as a possible avenue for you.
So you would definitely recommend that an applicant invited to interview prepare some questions. [21:41]Absolutely.
And I assume that those questions should not be answered on the second page of the website? [21:46]Ideally. They peel back the onion a bit further than that, yes.
What suggestions would you have for re-applicants to Stern? [21:58]So when I’m thinking about someone who’s reapplying to Stern, and I’m thinking even if I was in their shoes, I’d be most curious to know, what did they learn about themselves through that application process that didn’t result in what they were hoping for? I think it’s also beneficial to take a real critical look at your last application. Where are the areas that you felt were not as strong as they could have been? How can you tell a stronger story this time around? What’s changed since you last applied?
Those are the questions that I would be asking.
And how did you address those weaknesses? [22:53]Exactly.
Every so often we are asked, “I know it was my test score, or I know I didn’t have enough experience, but my essays are really good. Can I just resubmit the same essays?” How would you respond to that? [22:57]I mean, you can.
I don’t know if that’s the best course of action. I think you’d probably have something different to say with another year’s worth of experience. So you would be doing yourself a disservice by just submitting the same application essays. I would really think about what has changed and how could you reflect that?
I was just having this discussion with somebody and he says, “Well, I took some classes, I got some A’s, that’s really what’s changed, and my essays were really, really good.” And I said, “There are very few people who can’t improve their writing a year later when they look back at it, number one. Number two, if you want to telegraph that the only thing you’ve done in the last year is take a few classes and earned A’s in them, then go ahead. But maybe you want to show that you’ve done other things too, or grown in other ways.” [23:38]Right.
I don’t think part of what a re-applicant should do is, okay, so they analyzed the weakness, they saw that it was grades or test score or whatever the weakness was, and they addressed it, but they don’t want to be otherwise stagnant. They don’t want to come across as stagnant. [24:09]You want to come to a place where we’re all about change. Right? What have you learned?
What about first time applicants? They haven’t been rejected previously, they haven’t applied previously. How can applicants prepare to apply successfully to NYU Stern? [24:43]I’m sure at that moment, and I’ve been there myself many moons ago, but it can be very overwhelming. Firstly, I’d say, don’t fuss too much about meeting any one particular deadline versus another. We don’t want you to rush an application. We want to see your application, when you’re ready to submit the best application you can submit. We were talking about test options earlier, do some research, give it some prep, and give it a go as soon as you can. I think you’d want to allow yourself time to see how that score came back, retest or try another test, if you feel like it wasn’t reflective of your capabilities. And then I will also say, please don’t be put off by the high average scores. Keep in mind that averages are not minimums. Take a look at our class profile, we publish our 80% and 100% ranges, and just remember that, we evaluate applications holistically. The test score is only one data point amongst the bigger picture of you, that is the application.
And when we’re talking about tips and the tests, who should apply for a waiver? [25:58]I’d say, if you feel that the test really isn’t reflective or you’re not in a space where you can take a certain test, we’re looking for folks who have past experience in quantitative courses. Right? You’ve got transcripts supporting that you know will be able to come in and hit the ground running and do well in statistics and financial accounting in that first semester at school. So looking for either transcript evidence or folks who have had significant work experience that’s quantitatively supported. Maybe you have your CPA or your CFA, these are all other proof points that you’re going to do well. But I strongly encourage you to take a test and submit a score because it is a helpful data point. But those are the type of things that we’d be evaluating when assessing for granting a waiver.
What question would you have liked to answer that I didn’t ask? [26:59]So the one cool thing, and I think I mentioned it earlier as part of the Change Studio, but I really want to highlight it, is Leadership Accelerator, because it is the coolest thing that I’ve learned about at Stern.
What’s the coolest thing I didn’t ask about? [27:18]Yeah. So this is taking case method learning to a whole other level. They have taken it off the paper and Leadership Accelerator is an opportunity for students to spend a full day living in a case. We bring in professional actors that play business roles, that are live in real-time, throwing twists and turns at the students that they’re responding to in real-time. And it’s an amazing opportunity for practical application of theory and gives them an opportunity to learn leadership agility and reacting to these things in real-time.
What’s the title? [28:05]Leadership Accelerator.
Professor Nate Petit is the Director of the Leadership Accelerator. He developed this live case method along with Stern colleague Hannah Levinson. So it’s super cool. And one sort of tangential plug for Nate Petit, this is a podcast, so I assume that people listening, like podcasts as a format for consuming content. Nate is also the Faculty Advisor for Stern Chats. And Stern Chats is a podcast that is entirely MBA student run, and it’s a great opportunity to hear about Stern from Sternies.
Thank you for that plug and thank you for explaining it. It sounds really cool. [28:47]It’s really cool.
So basically, they show up and they’re given a situation and actors act parts and they kind of – [28:52]Yeah. The students are in roles, you’re in a boardroom and you’re debating a strategy and then a crisis comes in and how do you respond to these things?
So picture reading an HBS case, but then living it in real-time. Right?
That does sound really cool. [29:15]How people always lay out the scenario.
I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve enjoyed chatting with you about NYU Stern’s three full-time MBA programs. Can you provide a URL for our listeners? [29:22]Yeah, everything you can find is at https://www.stern.nyu.edu/ and there’s pages for the full-time two year program that we talked about and for the one year focus programs.
Relevant Links:
- NYU Stern MBA Admissions
- MBA Admissions Quiz
- NYU Stern MBA Essay Tips
- NYU Stern Executive MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines
- NYU Part-Time MBA Essay Tips & Deadlines
Related shows:
- What’s New at NYU Stern’s Online Masters of Science in Quantitative Management [Episode 447]
- How to Get into Dartmouth Tuck [Episode 514]
- How to Get Into Georgetown McDonough’s MBA Program [Episode 512]
- The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
- How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA [Episode 498]
- How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA [Episode 488]
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In this episode, the CEO of Service to School and the Chief Programs Officer at Service to School explore the resources available to active duty service members and veterans through the nonprofit and give practical examples of translating military experience into public sector terms. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you a veteran considering grad school? Are you thinking about entering the military and wondering what you should do after it? Would you just like to hear some great advice about applying to grad school, even if you’re not in the military? Please join me for this informative interview with the CEO and the Chief Programs Officer of Service to School, a nonprofit that provides free college and grad school application counseling to military veterans and service members.
An interview with Alec Emmert, CEO of Service to School and Sydney Matthes, Chief Programs Officer. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 524th episode of Admission Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mba-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications, plus it’s all free.
In honor of Memorial Day, which the United States will observe this Monday, May 29th, I decided to invite two guests from Service to School, an organization that helps US military veterans gain acceptance to college and graduate programs. It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Alec Emmert, CEO of Service to School, and Sydney Matthes, Chief Program Officer at, again, Service to School.
A little background about our guests. You could say that Alec really likes school. He holds a BS from the US Naval Academy, an MA in International Relations and Middle Eastern studies from the American Military University, an MS in finance from Georgetown University, and an MBA from Wharton. After serving in the military for almost eight years, Alec joined Booz Allen Hamilton, earned his MBA at Wharton, and then joined McKinsey as a consultant. He became the full-time CEO of Service to School in March of this year. Congratulations on your new position.
Sydney also likes education. She has worked in higher ed since 2011 on different college campuses, and is an independent admissions consultant. She earned her bachelor’s at West Virginia University and her master’s in Higher Education and in Education Administration from George Washington University. Her master’s focused on veteran support programs and campus resources.
Alec and Sydney, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:40]Sydney Matthes:
Thanks. Excited to be here.
Glad to have you both. Okay, the first question is a basic one, and let’s start with Alec for this one. What is Service to School? [2:45]Alec Emmert:
In a nutshell, Service to School is an organization that provides free college application and admissions support to any veteran who wants it. We’re talking about everything from community college to PhD programs. So if you are a veteran and you want any form of higher education, you can reach out to Service to School, and we’ve got a group of about 500 plus volunteer ambassadors who’ll be willing to help you out and get you into the program you’d like to go to. We also offer a number of weekly programs, a newsletter, things like that, that veterans can use, to better inform their college decision.
I’d like each of you also to give us a little background on your personal journeys to involvement with Service to School. And Sydney, why don’t you start with that one? [3:33]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah, absolutely. I actually started as an ambassador. So during my time as an independent admissions consultant, I was consistently approached by soldiers. My husband is active duty army, so he would send me soldiers that had questions about going back to school, and that was my full-time job. I would help them through the process and I was like, “Why isn’t there an organization that does this?”
So after a Google search, I found Service to School and I signed up to be an ambassador, supporting students on our undergraduate team. And then eventually as a volunteer role, I was the co-director of our other grad program that supports veterans that are applying to those one-off programs, like a master’s in higher ed. We have a lot of graduate degrees in computer science that fall in that space. So I led that team, and then eventually they asked me to come on full-time here at Service to School to help support the resources and the content that we provide across all of our different teams. So I started as a volunteer.
Alec Emmert:
I also started as a volunteer ambassador. When I was at Georgetown pursuing my master’s in finance, I was part of their veterans club, and I was looking for a way to give back to the veteran community, and I just started asking around. One of my colleagues there in the veterans club told me about Service to School. I reached out to the organization, signed up to be an undergraduate ambassador, did that for several years. When I decided to apply to business school, I actually became an applicant and got an MBA Admissions ambassador, and he was tremendously helpful in my success. Following my admission to business school, I paid it forward and became an MBA ambassador myself. And then only recently was I asked to take on the role of CEO, and so I moved from Ambassador to CEO. So all in all, I’ve been with the organization for about eight years in some capacity.
In 2015, I interviewed Gus Giacoman, who was one of the co-founders of Service to School, for Admissions Straight Talk. If you’re interested in that, we’re going to link to the episode. Now, Alec, when you applied to Wharton, you already were a graduate of the Naval Academy, and you had two masters degrees. As I said, you clearly liked school. Why did you want an MBA, and are you glad you got it? [5:35]Alec Emmert:
The short answer is, I’m very glad I got it. My experience at Wharton was very positive, and really what differentiated my MBA experience from the other two masters I had gotten was the ability to take two years off to really focus on myself, my future, my career, and learn from a variety of different people around me at the Wharton School. The previous two master’s degrees I got were part-time programs. They’re both very, very useful for me professionally. In my case, in my time in the military, I spent a lot of time in the Middle East, so I wanted to learn about the root cause of a lot of the challenges that were going on in the region, so I pursued that degree.
And then I used my GI bill benefits while I was working for Booz Allen Hamilton to get the Masters in Finance from Georgetown. It was an excellent program. It still is an excellent program, but it’s part-time, so I wasn’t fully immersed in an academic environment, where going full-time to Wharton enabled me to spend time talking to teachers, really digging deeper into what the future of the business landscape is going to look like. My major is in business analytics, so I got pretty deep in things like machine learning, and really was able to use that time to hit the reset button, figure out what I wanted to do with the rest of my life and expand my professional network.
I think recent surveys said that there’s growing interest in one-year and online programs, but you really felt that the two-year, full-time program was very beneficial. [7:33]Alec Emmert:
I did, because you get an internship, and the good thing about that is really your first year, all everybody ever talks about is where do you want to intern? And you don’t really have a full picture of what that internship’s going to look like, whether or not you’re going to like the industry once you get there. So it really gives you a chance to try out your first hypothesis, and if you don’t like it, if you go to your internship, you’re not really crazy about it, you want to try something else, you have the opportunity in your second year to re-recruit, try something else and meet with people from different industries, see what else is going on. Even take the time to start a company yourself, things like that.
The bottom line is that I think that the one-year programs are very compressed. They’re good at getting you the education in a shorter period of time, but I do think that the two-year programs are very, very beneficial if you’re looking to really try a bunch of different things out and focus on your own personal development for a little bit longer period of time.
https://youtu.be/0gH8M9qcdDoAnd you’re not doing the juggling that you’d be doing with a part-time program. [8:46]Alec Emmert:
Oh, yeah.
That must be hard, working full-time. [8:51]Alec Emmert:
It was. The MSF program at Georgetown is fantastic, and I learned so much in it. It was definitely a very rigorous program, and working full-time as a consultant while doing that, there were many late nights. I felt like I was always burning the candle at both ends with that one, in the sense, getting a full-time MBA removes the variable of having a full-time job. So your first responsibility when you’re at business school is doing well in the classroom, whereas your first responsibility when you’re getting a part-time degree is your day job.
Sydney, why did you go for your Master’s, and are you glad you got it? [9:33]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah, absolutely. I think the reason I went for my master’s is a lot of what Alec echoed in his experience in his MBA program. My undergraduate experience was truly transformative for me, just as a person. And I loved my time on campus, which led me to say, “Wow, I didn’t realize that working in higher education on a college campus can be someone’s full-time job.” So when I thought about going back to school, how can I do that full-time on a college campus, but also to be able to learn the intricacies of the US higher education system. So while doing my master’s program at GW, I had the opportunity to work in the law school admissions office. I worked in the undergraduate admissions office while also being a graduate student. So I had a full view of how a higher education and research institution can work.
I stumbled into the space of veteran support. Like I mentioned, my spouse is an active duty service member, and we were looking at student development theories. There wasn’t a lot of research around student veterans and how they integrate onto college campuses, be it at the undergraduate or graduate level. So I had the opportunity to create new knowledge. There’s so many incredible opportunities on college campuses across the different programs that students can enroll in, and that was just really exciting for me.
So to be able to go back for a graduate program, focused on a student population I was incredibly passionate, interested in learning more about, while also supporting my interest in learning higher education, 100% it’s led me truly to my position here now at Service to School, when I look back at 2015 and the research projects that I had. So 100% absolutely it was worth it. Just being around people that are excited to learn – you get that on a campus. And to Alec’s point, the networking, those hands-on experiences that you get from being fully immersed in a college campus, I’m just incredibly passionate about sharing that opportunity for service members, but also for anyone who’s interested in higher ed.
And your program was also a full-time program, was it? [11:40]I worked full-time, went part-time.
But you were working on campus, so in that sense you were immersed. Got it. [11:47]It felt full-time, because I would go straight from work to class in the evenings, when I would travel for work, working in admissions, talking to prospective students, was able to apply what I was learning in the classroom to my job. So it felt like I was doing both full-time, but wouldn’t change it, definitely to be able to see that practice and the application to what you’re learning in the classroom, play out in the workplace. I mean, to be able to marry those things was truly a dream come true.
So that’s the flip side of the part-time program, especially when you’re working in a related field. So there are advantages to being a vet, applying to school, and there are disadvantages to being a vet, applying to school. Why don’t we have each of you start with one of them, and you can obviously add if you have something to add. Alec, since you’re such an expert at applications, why don’t you address the disadvantages of applying or the challenges of applying as a vet to, in your case, graduate school? [12:14]Alec Emmert:
Sure. And so, I’d say that the disadvantage is really why Service to School is here. So the disadvantage is, when you’re in the military, it’s a fairly small percentage of your coworkers and your peers are going to be looking to go to graduate school to leave, and then go on to say business school, law school. Whereas when you think about it, a lot more people in the private sector, say hypothetically you’re working for an investment banker or consulting firm, I wouldn’t say the majority, but a large number of your peers are looking to those types of programs, looking to business school, potentially law school. And so, within your network there’s a lot more, I’d say peer and near peer mentorship.
You can talk about different programs, you can weigh the pros and cons of each, things like that. You can talk about good GMAT and LSAT prep programs. Whereas, when you’re a veteran, there’s a lot less information, or I’d say good information going around. Now, what Service to School is, it’s a network of mentors. So if you’re looking to get that good information, that mentorship, that near peer mentorship with your applications, that’s what we’re here for. So we’re here to essentially correct that disadvantage that many veterans experience.
Sydney, what will you say would be some of the advantages that vets have coming from the military and applying to grad school? And do you have anything to add to Alec’s comment? [14:06]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah, I mean, hitting home his point of the good information shared, that’s what we definitely try and do here at Service to School, is make sure that our applicants are well-informed about the admissions process, and where they could be a good fit at some of the nation’s strongest institutions. That’s one of the advantages, I think, of being a veteran applying to college right now, there’s so much unknown about our veterans. From my time reading admissions files, I have no idea what someone’s job in the Navy entails, or someone’s job in the Army entails. And to bring those real life experiences to a college campus, to a graduate program classroom, it adds to the depth of the conversations that are able to happen inside the classrooms.
And I think we see that through the program. The students that are going to some of our top business schools, Wharton, Harvard, they are actively seeking and enrolling veterans in those classrooms, because they see that their experiences, their lived experiences are very different from the rest of the students that are enrolling in those programs.
And we have those conversations with our student applicants regularly that you have very different experiences from what a traditional application’s essay is going to sound like, or what their resume is going to look like, and how can we best tell that story and help you translate those military experiences into civilian equivalencies or a language that a civilian’s going to understand. And that just sets their application already apart, because reading files, you’re used to reading the same undergraduate experience, there’s undergraduate clubs, but when you get a veteran’s application across your desk, it’s a whole new lens, which is really exciting from an admissions reader standpoint.
It seems to me like it’s almost a double-edged sword. You have this distinctive experience which will add to the classroom in ways that graduate admissions offices and employers will value, but you have to translate the distinctive experience into language that civilians will understand. Am I correct? [16:03]Sydney Matthes:
Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s a lot of what we spend our time doing, is helping them find those equivalencies. I tell our applicants, if I don’t understand what you’re talking about in your personal statement or your statement of purpose, an admissions officer probably isn’t going to be either, so let’s make sure we run that by your ambassador or Service to School team member, to make sure that you are translating that in the best way that we can. So then employers or an admissions office would understand some of the very specific military schooling that our applicants are coming to us with.
Alec, do you have any feedback from there, especially your time as an ambassador too?
Alec Emmert:
Yeah. The big thing is, veterans don’t write resumes. Most veterans will join the military and never have to write a resume until they leave. And so, understanding really what to put in a resume, how to convey the impact that you’ve made with your unit, is something veterans I think often struggle with. We’re always taught to be somewhat humble, by and large give the credit to the group. Whereas when that comes to writing a resume, that doesn’t always put your best foot forward.
So the key, I think, is a lot of veterans struggle with, we already discussed the acronyms and things like that, things of that in the military are pretty well known, but not well known outside and certainly not very well understood by a college admissions officer. So having that type of information in there that is not well explained, and then also being able to convey the impact they made with their unit and the situation, task, action, result, type, resume, bullet, and that’s, again, what Service to School is here to help them do.
Let’s dive into some of the different forms of assistance that Service to School provides to different types of applicants. Again, we’re going to keep the focus on the graduate programs, because that’s Admissions Straight Talk’s focus, but obviously an understanding is that you also provide to high school grads applying to college and community colleges also. So let’s start, Alec, with MBA applicants. What kind of assistance does Service to School provide to MBA applicants? [18:07]Alec Emmert:
Sure. So the big thing, we have our MBA ambassadors that provide one-on-one mentorship to potential MBA applicants. So a potential MBA applicant will fill in an intake form to Service to School. They’ll have an onboarding call, and then they will likely be paired with an ambassador with a similar background who went to a school that they are interested in attending, usually. So in my case, Wharton was my top choice, but Service to School paired me with an ambassador who was at HBS.
So they might not give you the exact school you want to go to, but a peer school. That ambassador will typically help with application preparation, resume review, essays, interview coaching, things like that. Additionally, we’ve got an MBA guidebook that’s available on our website that provides, independent of the ambassador, an applicant can go there. There are examples of good essays, good resumes, things like that. So there’s those free web resources that are available on our website at any time an applicant wants them. And additionally, we have some MBA programs where members of different veterans clubs at schools will talk to our applicants and answer questions as well.
Sydney Matthes:
Can I just piggyback in there as well?
Alec, being humble, he also just wrote and authored his own MBA Guidebook for Veterans. It’s available on Amazon.
But also, we do host an annual MBA and law school admissions fair, so we bring in schools. This year we had over 30 admissions offices represented, so veterans are able to speak directly with admissions offices for JD and MBA admissions.
Is it online or in person? [20:28]Sydney Matthes:
It’s all virtual.
And then for our healthcare professionals team, we have information sessions. This last year we did one with Mount Sinai. So a lot of virtual events for our applicants as well, and it’s all free to the applicant.
And you’re anticipating my next questions, which would be about JD applicants, applicants to graduate programs and healthcare, and applicants to other graduate programs, whether it be the masters in finance that Alec attended, maybe he can touch on that again, or research oriented PhD programs or engineering or public policy. So Sydney, you want to take that, several sub questions, if you will? [20:45]Sydney Matthes:
Sure, sure. So in addition to the events, I mean, I think the near peer piece is huge. Speaking specifically to our other grad team, that’s where a lot of our PhD applicants will fall. And when applying to PhD programs, typically they’re asking for a statement of purpose, an idea of a dissertation topic. So our PhD ambassadors are typically going through with applicants thinking, okay, well what kind of research might you want to do? Or what’s a topic for your dissertation? Have you thought through what that would look like in terms of a timeline?
Same conversations when we’re talking with applicants through their medical school applications. Okay, well, let’s think timeline. If they’re using their GI bill, how is that going to play into financing, the entirety of their time in a medical program? So the near peer piece, I think, is very key for our graduate programs, in addition to just the events and the resources that we’re able to provide with some of the partnerships that we have with graduate programs across the country.
Now, you mentioned PhDs, most PhD programs are by their very nature research-oriented and want to see previous research. Does the military provide opportunities for service members to do research? And if not, how do applicants handle that? [22:09]Alec Emmert:
That’s a good question. Sydney, feel free to jump in if my answer is lacking in any way. The short answer is yes, the military does provide opportunities for members to do research specifically. So the military is increasingly growing, more technologically advanced. And the military really actually has always been on the cutting edge of technology. And so, when you think about up and coming fields like AI, autonomy, like autonomous vehicles, things like that, members of the military are often at commands where this type of work is things that they do on a daily basis. And they might not specifically be in an R&D capacity, but they’ll publish articles in military journals and things like that. So there is the opportunity to do research while you’re in the military. I would say it’s not perhaps as easy as if you’re in a purely academic pursuit, but it’s there.
Sydney Matthes:
Agreed. Seeking out those opportunities too, there’s a lot of employers, organizations that have opportunities for research specifically for either student veterans or active duty. I know my spouse specifically, he’s getting an article published, and he’s a lawyer, and that’s all through the Army, so there are opportunities out there. That’s another thing I think Service to School does is, we try and share those opportunities with our applicants. All of our teams, graduate teams, our MBA team is run by one of our best ambassadors, and he’s regularly sending out opportunities for applicants within the MBA program for internships, research, scholarships, whatever those fields are in terms of the program that they’re applying to. Whenever we get resources like that, we try to share them with our applicants. So they’re definitely out there.
What suggestions do you have for vets applying to the different programs? Do you recommend, let’s say that MBA applicants get experience in the business world after separating from the military and before applying? Or do you think that perhaps the logistics experience they may have gotten in the military is usually enough for business school, and ultimately employers? Alec, again, do you want to take that one since it’s about MBAs? And we’ll go through the other categories also quickly. [24:18]Alec Emmert:
Yeah, sure. The short answer is, you can. I actually have known veterans who have left the military on say a Friday and started their MBA on a Monday, and they have been very successful. So it can be done. I mean, I do think the reality is, the more experience you can have working in the private sector between the military and the start of business school, the better. In my case, I spent about five years working for Booz Allen Hamilton before I started my MBA, and I think that, that gave me a little bit of a leg up over some of my other veterans at business school in terms of just really understanding really how corporate America works, because it’s fundamentally different than the military. But with that said, I think that five years might have been on the extreme side. I’d say that a good thing that a lot of veterans can take advantage of, is the DOD SkillBridge program, which I believe it’s six months before they leave the military, they can get an internship for a company in the private sector.
And so, they still get their military pay. They’re still technically on active duty, but they are working for this company. So if you can get a little bit of experience like that before you start business school, that’s very helpful. There’s also opportunities out there for pre MBA programs for veterans, that I knew some of my peers at Wharton also took advantage of. There’s some, I believe BlackRock has one, so those are also good things to look into. And the best way to handle it is, if you’re a veteran, you get into business school, reach out to the veterans club at the university, and they’re often, they’ve got a good handle on the different internship opportunities available. And then also, the Service to School MBA team can be helpful as well in that regard.
And since your husband’s an attorney in the military, what would you recommend for service members who are thinking of going for a JD? [26:41]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah. I think there’s, again, comes back to the good information. There’s a lot of bridge programs even from the military where they will go back and pay for you to go to law school, and then you come back as an active duty JAG. There’s so many opportunities that I think unfortunately a lot of people just don’t know about. So as much experience as you can get, as much as you can network and connect with people, like Alec said, reaching out to vets clubs where and when you can, and connecting with ambassadors from Service to School.
I hate to keep plugging that, but they’ve made that transition, they’ve made that leap that a lot of service members are looking for. But to talk to someone that has done that and charted those waters, is the best way to figure out what that could look like for you. But yeah, absolutely, I think as much hands-on experience as you can get, knowledge about the field and what it looks like and what that process entails, it’s just going to set you up to be the most successful, but also to make the best decision for yourself if that’s the journey that you’re wanting to go down.
I know that the military also has a medical school. That’s certainly one opportunity, and I think if you go to that medical school, your medical school education is paid for, or you have to serve afterwards, but it is paid for and you emerge debt free, which is pretty nice. But what are other things, especially if somebody’s coming out of the military, maybe they were a medic in the military, what should they be doing? And Sydney, why don’t you take that one? [27:49]Sydney Matthes:
I think a lot of it depends, and this is where we do a lot of educating with our admissions colleagues as well, is the job that someone could have in the military, it’s going to depend where they’re at in terms of rank, at least from my understanding. So my husband works as a JAG, he has a law degree, but he also works with paralegals. Some of them don’t have a bachelor’s degree.
Just for civilians, what’s a JAG? [28:43]Sydney Matthes:
For sure. He’s a lawyer for the Army, is essentially what it comes down to. He went to law school and then joined the Army afterwards. But to go back to your medic example, one of his paralegals was thinking about going to medical school. And I was saying, okay, well, what’s some experiences you can get through the military that can help show an admissions office that you have an interest in medicine that, that’s your journey? Putting him in a position to get that experience. Like you were asking about previously, should they join the workforce before they apply to some of these graduate programs? But if you can check both of those boxes from your time in service before you get out, then you’re getting paid to check that box while you’re still on your active duty assignment.
But to your point about the medical program, we had several friends that are military doctors, and they had their whole medical school paid for. They also have a residency, and take all of that part out of it too. You don’t necessarily have to do the matching when that comes with medical school residency programs. So I think when you can use the military to get that experience at whatever degree program through undergrad, I think that sets you up to double check a lot of those boxes, and use your time as efficiently, as effectively as you can.
We also once had an interview, this was a few years ago, with a representative of military medical recruiting. It’s episode 266.You have research oriented-programs, you have terminal masters programs, and let’s say engineering or public policy, all kinds of programs. So talking about grad, a very broad category, can be pretty difficult. What can veterans do to prepare themselves for those kinds of programs? Really broad strokes. [30:00]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah, I think researching your why, figuring out why you might go into one of these more specific programs. Like I said, I knew for me, higher ed, I wanted to understand the ins and outs and how it works. So a higher education administration made sense for me. But does the field that you’re transitioning into, does the career, does it require an advanced degree? It’s a lot of what I ask my applicants that are applying to some of those more specific graduate programs, are you going into a PhD because you think it’s going to make you more marketable or is it going to lead to career progression, or are you just truly interested in learning that field? So much of it, I think, comes back to your, why? Why would you invest four years, three years for law school to then come out with a law degree? What do you want to do with it? What is your why, I think is the most important to reflect on.
That’s great advice, because many, if not most or all graduate programs, most require something called a statement of purpose. And if you don’t have a why, you don’t have a purpose. And it’s extremely difficult to write a statement of purpose without a purpose. Alec, what are Student to Services requirements for participants in its programs, other than being active duty or veterans? [31:49]Alec Emmert:
That’s really it. If you’ve served your country, we’re here to serve you. It’s more so I’d say the timeline. We’ve got a ton of free resources on our website. We do the fairs that Sydney discussed. We’ve got programs that are open to all veterans. When it comes to ambassador pairing, we try to pair them with the ambassador at the time that their application is going to be completed. So if you’re in theory, say you’re applying for an intake in the fall of 2024, we’ll pair you up with that ambassador in the fall of 2023, so that you can get your application worked on then when it’s due.
But oftentimes, people will reach out to us two years before they actually have to have their applications prepped. They’re just really interested in getting our feedback on different programs, and advice. And so, we’re always open to that. And then typically, we’ll set reminders as a staff to reach out to these people. Again, check in with them, see how they’re doing. But when it comes to the actual, where the rubber meets the road, you get paired with an ambassador and you work on your application, we tend to do that right when that application is actually going to be due.
And is there any requirement, I thought I saw online, but I might have misread it, that they need to have their test if the program they’re applying to requires a test. [33:37]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah. On our website, it’ll list the teams what their requirement is in terms of testing. We like to see at least an unofficial score for an exam that’s different from enlisted versus officer. So it will vary on the program that they’re interested in applying to. But we do like to see at least a practice test, some investment in moving towards that application timeline.
People coming from the military, they have this wonderful, rich, and distinctive experience, which schools would value, but it’s hard to understand. Much like, I had to look up J-A-G, judicial something, something. Can you give me any tips or advice on how service members or vets, can translate their experience so that readers don’t have to constantly be Googling acronyms, and application readers can better appreciate the quality of their experience and the relevance of their experience in the private sector. [34:12]Alec Emmert:
The easiest thing that I tell people is, don’t put acronyms in your resume.
I’ll give you a perfect example of one client I had. I was working with, he was an MBA applicant and he had a very impressive job. He was working for, and I’m going to tell you the way he described. He says, “And I was an aide to the CNO.” Okay, the CNO is the Chief of Naval Operations, that is effectively the head of the US Navy on active duty. I’ve got to remember my numbers here. I think it’s on the order of 200,000 active duty personnel, and another 200,000 reservists. So what we’re looking at is someone who’s equivalent to the CEO of a Fortune 100 company.
I talked to the individual saying, what you did is very impressive, but anyone who’s reading that resume is not going to know who the CNO is. Yes, people in the military know, but other people don’t. So you can say something to like, Chief of Naval Operations, parenthesis, CEO equivalent of a 400,000 person organization. And so, just put something like that, so when an MBA ADCOM reads it like, “Wow.”
And the use of numbers is critical, right? [36:14]Alec Emmert:
Yes. Oh, yes, yes. And so, that’s key. I say always, numbers create impact. And say for example things like, ranked number one out of 10 peers, something like, led to a 20% improvement in unit readiness, things like that. So numbers as much as possible, and no acronyms.
Okay, great. Sydney, can you top it? [36:37]Sydney Matthes:
I don’t think so. I think I would echo everything he says. I mean, even still, my spouse has been in for 12 years and I am constantly learning new acronyms. I’m going to ask them for a dictionary.
So if I’m feeling it, admissions officers, admissions readers, they’re 100% feeling it too if you’re seeing acronyms and words they’re not used to, coming across their desk.
Let’s say we have an active duty military person who has six to nine months between separation from the military and when they hope to start their graduate program, whatever it might be. Do you have a recommendation for what they should do during that period? [37:10]Alec Emmert:
So the short answer is, you can do a lot of things, and it really comes down to the individual and what they feel they need. So a lot of times a service member will have been deployed a lot. They’ll be really burned out from the grueling military experience, and maybe just taking six months to relax to go sit on a beach for a bit. One of my friends went to Bali and surfed for six months before business school.
And that was what he needed. He had been very stressful, very stressful deployments and was burned out mentally. And before he embarked on the next phase of his life, he really just needed that reset. Now, at the same time, there’s other people who are just dead set on getting that investment banking job, that private equity job. And the best thing for them might be pursuing a pre MBA internship. So I think that the key really is for you to take a look at yourself, figure out what you need before you make that next jump.
If somebody is now thinking of applying to an MBA program this upcoming cycle, they have time to plan. And you can expand that to other grad applications too, but well, not healthcare. You’re hitting the ground running now, especially MD and DO. But all right, let’s keep it to MBA and JD. It’s now probably 15 months until they will start their program. And let’s say they’ve already separated, what would be your suggestions for them? So they’re applying presumably later this summer, maybe the fall, and they’re hoping to start their MBA summer 2024. [38:59]Alec Emmert:
So for that person, I think the number one priority is figuring out where you want to go to school, because that’s going to drive all of your decisions, because if you want to go to one of the top MBA programs, you’re going to have to get a very strong GMAT or GRE score. But if your aspirations aren’t as lofty, then you don’t necessarily have to spend as much time stressing about that GMAT or GRE. So my recommendation is really, set your target, figure out what you need to get there, and then you need to start reaching out to Service to School as the first step, I always tell people to do.
If you’re interested in going to any form of advanced education, send us a note, we’ll get you in the system, we’ll start rolling with you. And then reach out to the veterans clubs at the different schools you’re interested in applying to, because those people can generally give you some good insights. And then they’ll often have veteran visit days. So for example, Wharton has, I believe it’s semi-annual veterans visit day, where if you’re interested in going, people two, three years out will just go there, just see what Wharton’s all about, meet with some vets, sit in a classroom and see if that’s really for them. So I’d say that the first step is, setting your target, figuring out what you’re going to need to get on your standardized test to get there, and then networking with veterans who have walked the road you want to walk.
Sydney Matthes:
I mean, as you’re researching schools, encouraging them to think about how they’re going to pay for it. So if we’re talking about utilizing your GI bill or any financial aid, what that could look like for you if you’re going to pay out of pocket. That’s a big part too of figuring out what that school or that program fit is. So would definitely encourage the financial piece to be a big conversation that you start with when you’re thinking through, okay, what is this program going to cost me over the course of three plus years?
I would actually like to add something to Alec’s point if I could, not specifically military, because if it was, I couldn’t be adding anything. But in general, I am a firm believer that graduate decisions should be guided by what you want to do after the graduate program. So if you start researching your schools, you have to really know the direction you want to take afterwards, and then that becomes a true north star in guiding where you also apply. Now, hopefully there’s not a disconnect between qualifications and your goals, that’s sometimes a problem, but if that aligns, then the whole process becomes much, much easier. [41:48]Alec Emmert:
Oh, yeah. No, of course. And I’m going to throw in one more thing I forgot: Family buy-in.
You’re going to have to ask your significant other if they’re okay with you taking the time off from being in the private sector, for sacrificing several years of income, and for them to disrupt their lives to go where you want to go to school, if that’s something they’re on board with. And I think that it’s very important to set expectations with your family members and make sure that they’re really on board with your decision to apply to graduate school if you do have a family.
I do want to ask you about your new book. Can you tell us about it a little bit, Alec? [43:03]Alec Emmert:
Yeah. The book is called, Breaking Business School, The Savvy Veteran’s 10-Step Guide to MBA Success. It’s free on Kindle. So if you just go to Amazon, you can get it for free there. And basically, I learned many lessons the hard way between the military and business school. I spent five years in the private sector. I tried many different options as we discussed. I had a part-time business degree in finance, I worked for a consulting firm, and I learned a lot in the process. And when I was getting out, I got out of the Navy in 2012, left active service then, and there wasn’t really that much information out there. And so, what I did was, I set out to write the book I wish I had, had in 2012, which really gives the whole start-to-finish process of business school in terms of what careers can you get with a full-time MBA, what you’ll be competitive for, especially as a veteran where you can really put your best foot forward, what it takes to get into particular schools, and then the differences between part-time degrees, full-time degrees.
And really, then once you get to school, what to expect and how to succeed once you’re at business school, because that’s a very important variable, because just because you get into a top business school, does not mean you’re going to get that top job. You have to be very deliberate when you get to that school, be focused, set your target, and prepare for your job interviews. And then it closes out with, once you’ve already got that job offer, how can you really maximize your experience while you’re there at that school? And one of the big things there is becoming a Service to School ambassador, and paying it forward.
What question would you like to answer that I haven’t asked? [44:58]Sydney Matthes:
Yeah, I think the question would be, why not go after some of these top schools? Why not put yourself in the ring to be admitted to the top business schools or the top law schools in the country? We’ve worked with an applicant. She used to work here on staff, Service to School. She’s enlisted Navy, started undergraduate at Yale, and is now in law school at Yale. So to sell yourself short and not to give yourself the best opportunity after your time in service, why not?
Alec Emmert:
This is one is, how old is too old for an MBA?
Alec Emmert:
Because there was so much bad information about this, and there’s this myth going around, I remember. So when I got out, I was 30, and I actually thought I was too old to go to business school.
And there’s this bad information that circulates around where I think I’d heard a few people say, oh, you’re not competitive for a top program if you’re in your 30s. Or things like, Wharton only wants people that are in their late 20s at the oldest. And I said, “Well, I’m 30, I’m not going to be competitive, so I’m not really going to waste my time with it.” And the reality is really that you set your own pace.
If you are at a point in your career where you think an MBA, a full-time MBA I’m talking about, is the right move for you, if you want to take two years off, hit the reset button, pursue a different career field, then a 100%, go for it. And don’t really listen to the rumors that are out there, because there is an exception to every, quote, unquote, rule out there. And so, at the end of the day, you figure out what you want, reach out to Service to School, and we’ll help you get there.
May I ask, would you mind telling us how old you were when you got your MBA, when you started your MBA? [46:59]Alec Emmert:
Yeah, I was 35 years old. Graduated when I was 37, and I was not the oldest person in my class.
I will say, my experience is that sometimes older MBA applicants that are coming from the military, and less so coming from the military, sometimes have a harder time, because they have a harder time justifying the time off from a career, but it is not impossible. We have worked with people also in their mid 30s, I think even 40s, who’ve gone. Alec and Sydney, thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve enjoyed chatting with both of you about Service to School. And Alec, thank you for your service, and Sydney, thanks to your husband for his service. [47:11]Relevant Links:
- Service 2 School
- Breaking Business School, The Savvy Veteran’s 10-Step Guide to MBA Success
- Academic De-Greening, Part 2: Applying to Graduate School After Military Service
- Journey to Duke Fuqua: Marine-Turned-MBA, Entrepreneur, and Dad
- 38 Ways to Use the Power of Numbers in Your Admissions Resume
- Applying to Regular Full-Time MBA Programs as an Older Applicant
Related shows:
- An NYU Stern Grad and Strat Consultant Helping Vets Get Into School
- The Unbelievable Story of an Orthopedic Surgeon – Episode 136
- Transitioning from the Military to an MBA at Stanford GSB – Episode 471
- From the Military to Haas MBA – Episode 223
- The Military: One Way to Get an MD Debt-Free – Episode 266
- Wearing My Military Uniform in the Business World
- The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! – Episode 500
- How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA – Episode 498
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In this episode Dr. Ben Bernstein, author of Crush Your Test Anxiety, explains the role of mind, body, and spirit in performance enhancement. [SHOW SUMMARY]While aptitude tests are increasingly optional in graduate admissions, tests are a constant in graduate school and frequently in one’s career. How can you manage your stress and anxiety when facing a test, be it the MCAT, LSAT, MCAT, GRE, licensing exams, continuing education exams, or subject exams while in school? How can you perform at your best during a test? Dr. Bernstein will tell you how.
An interview with author, coach, psychologist, and educator, Dr. Ben Bernstein, on how to crush text anxiety to raise test scores. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 521st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we meet our guest, I’d like to highlight the featured resource for today’s episode, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions. Realize that the challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and are a standout in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance.
Our guest today is Dr. Ben Bernstein, author of Crush Your Test Anxiety, and presenter of the masterclass by the same name, Dr. Bernstein or Dr. B as he prefers to be known, has been a performance coach for a wide variety of top performers, including Academy Award, Tony Award, and Pulitzer Prize winners, as well as CEOs, athletes, physicians, opera singers, and actors. Dr. Bernstein is the author of Crush Your Test Anxiety and three other books. He also posts regularly on Psychology Today. Dr. Bernstein graduated from Bowdoin College and earned his doctorate in applied psychology from the University of Toronto. In addition, he holds a master’s degree in music composition from Mills College. Parallel to his career in psychology and education, Dr. Bernstein has extensive involvement in the performing arts.
Dr. Bernstein, thanks for being a guest on Admissions Straight Talk. [2:21]It is totally my pleasure, Linda. Thank you for inviting me.
My pleasure. Let’s start with something really basic. What is a performance psychologist? [2:29]Well, a performance psychologist is a term that I gave myself because I didn’t know that one existed and the reason I gave it to myself was I was trained as a therapist, but when I started in private practice, I found that I didn’t really take to that form of work, meaning that I’m a very active guy and I was really wanting to coach people more than do therapy with them, and so that meant I just started looking at where people wanted to perform better in their lives. Early on, it was parents or teachers, but then it became athletes and actors and dentists and doctors, and so that’s what I do is that I’m really looking for what a person’s potential is and what may be getting in the way of that. So we’re looking at their performance, and hence, I’m a performance psychologist.
How did you get into it? Was it just a matter of the fact that you didn’t care for more traditional forms of therapy or- [3:36]No, thank you though. It’s a good question. So I started out, as a young child, I was brought up in New York City, and I was a very prodigious piano player. I love playing piano, and I played very well. However, that got, sidetracked is not quite the right word, but I got pushed into recitals and competitions and national auditions and all the kinds of things that a seven, eight, nine, 10 year old might, me, really did not like, and I had severe performance anxiety. And no one helped me, actually. It was all like, what’s the matter with you and you’ll grow out of it and it’s all in your head and all these things that were completely not helpful.
I stopped playing the piano at age 14 completely. Didn’t pick it up again for almost 30 years, but what lingered in the background was that all this anxiety about performing, and it morphed into getting up in class or giving speeches and even acting because I loved getting on stage, but I had so much anxiety. So I had to actually find the way through this myself, through a lot of introspection and therapy and good teaching, really good teachers. Part of what I feel about life is that we’re all here to serve and this is my best way of serving people, which is to help them or work with them through their performance issues so they can perform at their best.
That’s a very interesting answer. Thank you for that. So it was really a combination of your own experience combined with your training, really. [5:12]Exactly, yeah, and I would say also combined with a faith, belief that we’re all here to really serve the greater good. We’re all here to help each other in one way. You’re doing it in your way, I’m doing it in my way. So we find our way to doing that pretty much through our own experiences.
I recently read a quote by the late Rabbi Lord Dr. Jonathan Sacks, and it was that our mission is to do what we like doing, I’m paraphrasing, obviously, I don’t have it memorized, what we are meant to do is what we like doing, and what the world needs done. [5:38]I love it. That’s perfect.
And I thought that was brilliant. [5:59]It is. It’s perfect. What the world needs, exactly.
And what we enjoy. It’s a combination. It’s both of them. [6:04]You bet. Totally.
Let’s go back to the topic of performance and what sometimes inhibits performance, let’s say, and that is stress or anxiety. What are those things? Are they different? Are they the same? [6:10]Well, no, they’re not the same. They’re different. They may trigger each other. Anxiety usually is a fear of what’s coming. You’re anxious about a test that you’re going to take or a speech you’re going to give or a performance review you’re going to have. It’s a fear often associated with what’s coming down the pike. Stress is different, and this is a really important question in terms of the work that I do. So the reason why is because there’s a known scientifically proven relationship between stress and performance. We know this from over 100 years of research, that stress affects performance and it’s a bell curve. Too little stress, you have to imagine a curve, too little stress, performance goes down, you don’t care, what’s the difference.
Too much stress, you’re freaked out and performance goes down, but in that top of the curve is where you actually have just the right amount of stress and that’s where you perform at your best. Now, having said that, most people really have, I have to say the wrong idea about what stress is because I talk all over the world and I ask people, what is stress, and they say things like, “Well, stress is my kids and stress is my spouse. Stress is the government, stress is taxes, stress is climate change, stress is COVID,” and it’s all what I call carpal tunnel finger pointing syndrome, pointing the finger at other things, which actually suggests, if you think about it for a minute, if all those things change, my kids calm down, my mother-in-law went away, my taxes stopped, COVID was all over, then my life would totally work.
Well, it just does not work like that. This is all life. So what is stress? Stress is what we experience when we react to certain life events, and particularly when we don’t like something, it’s not happening the way we want it to happen, we get frustrated or angry and we feel stressed. We think it’s the other person causing that, but the other person is just the other person, and it’s our reaction to that. Now, certain things in life, definitely certain life events are more stress provoking. You get ill, a bank fails, they can provoke that kind of reaction, but stress is what you feel because what I say is because you’re actually disconnecting, and I could go into that further, but it’s a different definition of stress.
https://youtu.be/9bts1-0ZPckHow does disconnection come in? [9:00]Well, disconnection comes in very important ways. I’m going to take the macro level first, which is quantum physics and all of spirituality basically says the same thing, which is that we all-
And you’re going to do it in less than three minutes, all quantum physics and spirituality. [9:12]This is like a quiz show, Linda. Now, I’m going to do it in two.
But we’ve already used up about 20 seconds. Okay, quantum physics and all schools of spirituality basically teach the same thing, which is that everything is interconnected. There is no separation. That’s very hard for us to get our heads around, but think about it this way. When you’re taking a test, when you’re giving a speech, when you’re in your kitchen, when you’re driving a car, there are three parts of you, your body, your mind, and your spirit. When all three parts are operating at top level, stress is just at the right place, but when you disconnect in your body, your mind, or the spirit, that’s when you experience stress.
So disconnection in the body would mean, for instance, when you stop breathing. I watch thousands of people take tests and they stop breathing right at the first minute. Your brain is getting the message that you’re dying, stress is going up, performance going down. So I don’t know if I’ve used up my three minutes, but we disconnect in the body. In the mind, we disconnect because we say to ourselves, I can’t handle this. I’m not able. I’m incapable, negative disconnection, and then the spirit, which is the thing we talk least about, but I think it’s the most important, we disconnect because we either don’t have a goal for our spirit to be focused or we keep getting distracted. When we disconnect, that’s when we feel stress.
But you also said that stress can be a good thing. [10:38]Yes. A certain amount of stress is necessary. The reason why is because we’re never going to be without stress. I was on an airplane and somebody asked me what I did and I said stress doctor because people call me that, and he said, “Well, the absence of stress is death,” and I said, “How do you know? Nobody knows what that’s like, but life is stress provoking because there’s always going to be challenging situations. We’re always going to disconnect a little bit. The key is not to disconnect so much that you feel stressed and then your performance goes down. You’re always connecting, reconnecting, disconnecting. So just some of that is okay, but too much of that is going to drive your performance down.
How can stress or non-academic issues, and by non-academic, I mean non-knowledge related issues, impede performance on a test? [11:33]Well, I’ve watched thousands of people take tests and if you watch them carefully, really carefully, you’ll see that when they open the textbook, literally, they pull it up on the screen, they go, huh. So this is for the people who are listening. I just held my breath. Now, when you hold your breath, what’s the message your brain is getting? You’re dying. So is your stress going up or down? Of course, it’s going up. That’s a disconnection, and if you keep doing that for three or four hours, two things happen. You become exhausted, which happens to many test takers on big tests, and also your reasoning ability, your ability to really think just goes down. So that’s a very simple thing.
Another example would be that you look at an item, well, this is a little bit more content related. You look at an item and you think, I don’t know. I don’t understand this. I don’t know what it means. That’s a confidence issue. No test is going to give you something that’s completely out of the domain of what that test is going to be or what you studied, or another non-academic issue would be you get distracted. If you’re in a room with people taking tests and somebody starts to wipe their brow or cough or sigh and you get distracted by all that, you’re disconnecting, your stress is going to go up. So it’s a great question actually because most people think it’s about academic issues and it’s not. So I appreciate the question a lot.
What kind of non-academic prep can enhance performance on exam day? [13:18]All kinds of things. So one thing is that I teach people something called three point breathing, which I’m happy to offer to all your listeners, and the way this works is that, but you have to train with this if you’re about to take an exam. You can’t just do it on test day because you have to really be practiced. Three point breathing, you exhale before you read a question, you exhale before you read the answer choices, and the third point is you exhale after you bubble in an answer. Now what that does is it keeps you from holding your breath so you’re able to stay in a much more, I’m going to say relaxed state throughout the course of the test, and you don’t get tired at the end of three hours and you’re able to think more clearly. So that helps a lot of people over the years that I trained to do that, but again, you have to practice this. You just can’t do it on test day.
It’d probably be great to practice independent of tests and then perhaps on practice exams. [14:22]Definitely. Definitely. And how about the rest of your life?
True too. [14:24]Well, but you think about it. Just anticipating you’re going to have a performance review with your boss, if you really check in with your breath, chances are when you’re thinking about that, most likely, you’re going to be holding your breath if you’re feeling anxious about it. Holding the breath and anxiety are completely connected. So you practice more, but the way you do it, it’s not complicated. If you feel that nervousness starting to ramp up, the sooner you catch it and you exhale and you feel the chair under you and you just let go, it’s going to help you. What happens with most people is that they will wait too long when they’re really ramped up and then the tools are minimally helpful. They’re helpful, but they can’t as quickly get you back to that middle place, that zone.
Now, on your website, I was looking at it a little bit and preparing for the call today. What is “the zone” that you talk about? [15:27]Yeah, sure. Well, it’s most frequently used by athletes, and when athletes have a really good performance, like LeBron James scores 40 points and whatever, and you swim and you’re exceeding your record, they will often use the phrase, “Man, I was really in the zone.” And what they’re referring to is that middle part of the graph where stress is just right. That’s what they’re actually referring to, but when they talk about it, it sounds mystical. One of my teachers called it misty moisty. It sounds like, whoa, it just came on me. It’s not magical or mystical. It’s what you can affect by becoming aware when your stress is building and then using tools to get you back. So it’s actually a conscious process of awareness and tools. So the zone is that place of optimal performance, but it’s not magical.
Not magical, it’s not mystical. [16:42]It’s not misty moisty.
And it’s one of the things that you do as performance psychology, psychologist rather, is help people get into that zone and maintain that zone? [16:48]Yes, of course. That’s great. That’s the whole point of this work.
Bear with me. I have to correct a couple of words. I don’t help people do anything. I train them to be aware when they’re slipping out of the zone and how to get themselves back using tools. Now, an important thing here to know is that everybody’s optimal level of stress is different. You have kids, you know what I’m talking about. My optimal level of stress is very different from my wife.
I can do four or five or six different things seemingly at once. My wife likes to do one thing at a time, and the worst thing we can do is look at another person and go, “What’s wrong with you? Why are you stressing out?” That’s terrible because that’s what’s going on with them. It’s different from us. So my work is about working with people so that they have a sense of what their optimal level of stress is and when they start to exceed that, how to get themselves back.
https://youtu.be/c8LrxsV9bxwHow does what you do relate to or complement traditional test prep? [18:05]Well, it complements it. It relates to it and complements it. Traditional test prep, which has been around for quite a long time, really, the function of traditional test prep, and I think this is an accurate statement, is to very deeply familiarize yourself with the test you’re about to take. In other words, how is the test structured? What does it actually cover? How is the time allotted? What are the different elements of the test? So if it’s a multiple choice or short answers or essays. There are many things that you really need to know about the test structurally, but also content wise. On an ACT math test, there are six or seven, I think, domains of math that are tested. So you really need to know that’s what test prep traditionally does, which is training you to become familiar with the test itself, but also deeper dive into the content of the test.
What I do is give people performance tools so they can stay in that more zone state. So what does that actually mean? It means that they’re calm, they’re confident, and they’re focused, calm in the body, confident in the mind, and focused in the spirit. I get people, for years, I’ve gotten people who will do very well on practice tests, but then they take the actual test. I don’t say the real test because it’s all real. They take the actual test and then they tank, and that phenomenon fascinates me. How can you cross over a threshold and then be a different person, but that’s because they haven’t been trained in becoming more self-aware, they’re aware of the test, but not more self-aware and take that awareness into the performance itself. This is what good athletes do. They’re ready to really perform and we don’t teach performance tools. That’s what I do.
You mentioned the breathing exercise. What are some of your other top tools, if you don’t mind sharing? You don’t have to give them all, just a couple. [20:15]No, I don’t mind sharing at all. I invented this model that puts them together, but it turns out there are nine tools, three for being calm, three for being confident, three for being focused. So the top three in each, I call them leg of the stool, think of a three-legged stool, the top one in staying calm has to be breathing. So I didn’t invent the tools, I invented the model. Breathing’s been around for a long time, and if you think about it, there’s a reason that thousands of years ago, the saints, the sages, the rishis, and rishi because in India and China were all talking about breathing then thousands of years ago.
Okay. So that’s one. In the mind, it’s very important that you immediately recognize when you’re saying something negative about yourself, and in the sense you confide that. You don’t try to push it down. I really don’t know what to do here, and there’s a way that I have to do. Unless you really accept that and admit that, you’re going to be fighting it, and for focus, the biggest tool for focus is to become aware when you’re getting distracted and stop your distraction. Just stop it in its tracks. An example from not testing would be I’m wanting to lose, which I am, another five or eight pounds and I am hungry and there’s an apple and there’s a donut. Okay. You get this picture here already?
I got it, I got it well. [21:53]Thank you. So I go, distraction is donut, focus is apple. All right, good. You got that.
No problem, but I think distraction is a big issue today for people not even taking tests, just constantly staying focused is something I think we’re all challenged by without any tests involved. How can we enhance focus and minimize distraction even if we don’t have a donut staring at us and we’re trying to lose 10 pounds? [22:01]Well, it’s such a good question. Let’s backtrack a little bit. Focus in the dictionary is a noun and a verb. The noun is the goal and the verb are the actions that take you to the goal. So the answer to your question is what is your goal? Be clear about your goal. If you want to minimize distraction, be clear about your goal, but also be clear that there are going to be actions that take you to the goal, apple, and actions that don’t take you to the goal, donut.
So it’s consistently becoming aware that you have this goal, but then when you come to a choice, that you make the appropriate choices. You’re totally right. Distraction is like the other pandemic that’s been going on and getting worse and worse and worse. So we have to stick to what we really want to achieve, what our intention is, and do that through our action. Really, that’s the only way, but there are other things too, I would say that contribute to that. Turn off your phone.
Turn off your notifications on your phone. [23:30]Exactly. We don’t have a car. I ride a bicycle and we live in the Bay Area, and the other day, and I’m a pretty careful bicyclist, they have a lot of bike lanes. The other day, I was going across an intersection and somebody pulled around me to make a right turn, and this guy was looking at his phone while he was making a turn and he missed me by, I would say six inches.
So this is very dangerous stuff, really dangerous stuff. I have Zoom calls all the time and four to five times, the person’s always doing something else than talking to me and they think they look like they’re talking to me, but I have a huge antenna for this stuff and they’re doing something else. So now, I begin every call on this distraction note by just saying, look, I have a thing about people getting distracted while they’re talking to me. Could you please turn off all other devices, and most people are pretty cool with that.
You think that they’re also paying you, that you think they would want to get maximum value. [24:34]Good point, Linda.
Are there different processes for performance enhancement when facing an academic test as opposed to life’s tests like public speaking, an interview, an artistic performance, or simply a difficult situation where you really have to step up to the plate and perform perhaps without the opportunity to prepare or study or do prep? [24:45]Well, that last part of your question is really the hook, without preparation.
Well, then maybe there are two different questions. You can prepare for an interview, you can prepare for public speaking, but there are also tests that you don’t know are coming. [25:12]Right. No. And also, even if you prepare for an interview or an examination, there will be things happening that you have not imagined necessarily, or you haven’t practiced. So the question is an excellent one. I don’t think it’s different processes as much as cultivating your awareness when your stress level is rising. So that would be different in different people. Stress level rising, you would feel that in the body, your pulse would increase. You might feel a little headache or stomach cramp or something like that. In the mind, you would be starting to say something negative to yourself. Somebody throws you a question. I had a client this morning and she was talking about an experience where she was teaching the class and somebody threw her a question and she got nervous.
So what does that mean? Well, she had physical symptoms, but she was telling herself as the person finished the question, I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how to answer this. So what I told her, which is, again, awareness, when she became aware that she was saying that, just to take a moment to pause, to ground herself, and let herself come back into a state where she could answer the question. So it always comes down to being calm, confident, focused. Why? Because it’s always body, mind, and spirit. So you need to know when you’re feeling that kind of stress yourself, you need to say I’m disconnected, body, mind, spirit, and you can start anywhere. Think of a three-legged stool. The three legs are dynamically connected. If you move one, it’s going to affect the other two. So I think the question is really great because we’re always faced with tests all day long.
That’s right. We really are, constantly, constant. [27:10]Constant. Yeah. I’m just thinking on a much more mundane level, your child runs in the room and goes, “Daddy, daddy, daddy,” and you go, “Calm down.” Well, that’s not helping anybody.
Well, generally telling somebody who’s excited to calm down doesn’t do any good. [27:29]No, of course not, but what people don’t realize is they just got induced into that other person’s state. The kid at this point is all worked up. You can be so helpful if you calm down and then can deal with whatever his issue is, but often, people just get swept right into other people’s stress, which is really problematic.
I sometimes have told some of my grandkids that are upset about something and screaming or yelling or crying I say, “I can’t hear you. You’re talking too loud.” That usually calms them down. [27:53]Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, you’re a good grandma. That’s good.
What tips do you have, and I think we’ve touched on this already really, but I’ll ask it again so you can review, for, let’s say, reducing tension when actually, we were talking a little bit about prep or not being able to prep, but when you’re in a situation and you’re in the interview chair and you get a question that throws you for a loop, again, is it just take a minute to think mind, body, spirit and I’m going to do the best I can? [28:10]Well, yes. Let’s see. Let me think about this for one second.
You’re in an interview chair or a test chair, and you get a question that throws you for a loop. You don’t know how to answer it. [28:45]Well, I think it’s perfectly fine to, and this comes from years of coaching people to take oral exams, for instance, or interviews. It’s perfectly fine to say I need a moment to think about this. You only feel pressured to answer quickly because of habit, experience, expectation, or you’re imagining that you’re going to not seem smart if you have to take some time to think of it. It’s perfectly fine to think about something. It’s also perfectly fine to say at the first instance, I don’t have an immediate answer for that. I need to think about it a little bit.
But in order to think about it, you do have to calm yourself down because if you’re not calm, you’re going to be thinking about how nervous you are so you won’t have room to think about it, but there’s another part to your question, which I would like to say and suggest. I think it’s very helpful to do what athletes almost always do before a competition. They imagine it. They go through it in a guided imagery way. They see it from start to finish. They see themselves performing at their best, they see themselves overcoming obstacles, they see themselves dealing with the challenge.
Now, what does that do? That actually does a whole bunch of things, which is there’s a whole bunch of muscle memory things that are going on, but it also is if you can do it in your imagination, chances are you can do it on the outside too. If you think about it, everything that we see or touch, not in the plant world, but in the physical world, other physical worlds are created first in somebody’s imagination. This microphone I’m sitting in front of, my desk, where you are, it all started in the imagination. So why not apply that to our own lives where we imagine something before? A good example of this on a very literal level is when you see a phone call come in because the caller ID and you think, ugh, ugh, God, this person, stressful.
I don’t want to talk to that person. [31:10]Yeah, don’t pick up the phone immediately. Exhale, ground yourself. Just come back to a state of openness, readiness to deal with what you have to deal with, and if you’re not ready, just don’t answer. Let it go to voicemail because you’ll avoid an unpleasant experience.
Good advice, especially for the unpleasant call. Either deal with it, take a deep breath and deal with it, or postpone it. You don’t have to deal with it. [31:22]My wife helped me a lot with emails because I would get an email and then I have to answer it, and I got myself in some hot water with that because either my answer was too short or it wasn’t considerate or whatever, and she helped me a lot with that, which is like, okay, write out an answer, but don’t hit send. Just write out an answer and come back to it. Is that really what I want to say? Am I saying it in the best way possible? We feel so rushed in our culture to be just, we have to do it now, and have to be perfect. All of this has to, has to, and it’s not really how we work as human beings.
Well, email in particular is a very cold medium. [32:15]Yes, exactly. Definitely. Yeah.
It’s very useful, but it can be very cold. [32:21]Cold is very good. I never heard it described as a cold medium. That’s an excellent adjective.
Thank you. What would you have liked me to ask you that I haven’t asked you? [32:29]What would I have liked? Well, it’s more like what I would like to say. So if I can turn around that way. I do what I do because we’re not trained in our educational system to do things in a calm and confident and focused way. Our educational system in general, and I’m not talking about particular schools and particular teachers. I’m talking about the system, is run like an assembly line, which is how it was created in the industrial revolution. You do this, you do this, you do this, you do this, and you pop out with a degree and then you get a job, and that does not create the environment for real learning, for real growth, for retention, for all of those things.
And so when people come to me and say, “I want to get a 1550 on my SAT or a 36 on ACT, or I want to get the highest score on my LSAT or whatever,” I say to them, “Look, I want that for you too and I really want to work with you so that you can get into that score level, but the reason I’m doing this work is because you should have learned this stuff in the second grade because these are life tools, how to be calm and confident,” to folks. You said this before, we’re faced with life, challenges, tests every single day and we don’t teach in our educational system, truly, we don’t really teach what’s useful for life. We teach a whole bunch of other things, and my shorthand, smartest way of saying this, how much do you remember from the fourth grade? Almost nothing, and it goes on and on like that.
And I really do think there’s a failing that we have to correct. I have the great good fortune to have been trained as a teacher in extremely progressive, wonderful schools in England that were in very poor neighborhoods, but the kids loved to come to school. Why? Because they were being cultivated as individuals, as creative people, as part of a community. It was more lifelike than anything I had experienced as a kid. So that’s what I really want to say, which is that we need to be learning life tools and then when we’re faced with any test, we can deal with it in a good way, and I really appreciate how you’re bringing all the different tests in because we are faced with tests all the time. So thank you for allowing me to ask the question that I wanted to answer.
You’re very welcome. I like a quote my daughter’s friend once said, and I later heard it was a Tom Bodett quote, that in school, you have lessons and take tests. In life, you have tests and learn lessons. [35:20]Oh my goodness, that, wow. Please put that in your website or the chat or something. I really got to remember that one. That’s great.
Where can listeners learn more about your work if they’re interested in performance enhancement on test day or in other situations in life? Where can they learn about you and your work? [35:51]The best place is my website. Now, when we go to the website, there are all kinds of resources, and one of them, if you have tests issues, would be a course called Crush Your Test Anxiety. So you look in the menu for courses, but there’s all kinds of other resources there, links to my blog on Psychology Today, and then I also want to just say I’m happy if somebody wants to consult with me. You get on my calendar, we have a 20-minute consultation. I get to ask you a lot of questions and tell you about how I work and see if there’s a fit for working together.
Related Resources:
- Dr. Ben Bernstein’s website
- Dr. Bernstein on Psychology Today
- Fitting in and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions– a free guide
Related shows:
- Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know [Episode 513]
- LSAT and Law School News [ Episode 509]
- Ace the Executive Assessment [Episode 483]
- Testing, Testing, 1-2-3: What’s the Right Test Prep For You? [Episode 443]
- How to Eliminate Test Anxiety [Episode 427]
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In this episode the Associate Global Director of Admissions & Financial Aid at INSEAD discusses the school’s unique language requirement, the role of the GRE/GMAT in admissions, and what to include in the optional essay. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you a citizen of the world? Is it your goal to be a leader in international business? Then you should consider the Business School for the World: INSEAD.
An interview with INSEAD’s Teresa Peiro, Associate Director of Global Admissions, Degree Programmes. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 520th episode of Admission Straight Talk, Accepted podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Sometimes I am asked, “Is the MBA worth it?” And my answer is, “It depends on your individual circumstances.” But I’ve got good news. We’ve developed a tool that will help you evaluate whether an MBA is worth it for you and your individual circumstances and by how much. Check how much you’re likely to benefit – or not – from the MBA. And using it won’t set you back even one cent. It’s free.
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk. Teresa Piero, Associate Director of Global Admissions and Financial Aid at INSEAD, the Business School for the World. Teresa worked in marketing for several years before joining INSEAD in 2011. She focused more on MBA programs initially, but in 2021 became the Associate Director of Global Admissions and oversees the entire admissions process for all INSEAD degree programs on all campuses including the EMBA, which is going to be our focus today.
Teresa, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:52]Thank you very much, Linda, for having me here today.
My pleasure. Now can you give us just a start, an overview of INSEAD’s MBA program for those listeners who aren’t that familiar with it? [1:57]Yes, of course. Linda, our MBA program is a 10-month program that brings together around 100 nationalities per cohort. You can either start in January or in the August intake. It’s a very intense program. It’s shorter, but our participants make the most out of it and we commonly hear all of our alumni saying that it was the best year of their lives.
How do most students take advantage of that geographic diversity? If it was 10 months in Fontainebleau the whole time, that would already be intense. But if you have all these other options, how do they do it? [2:40]Indeed. So, our applicants have to make a decision of which will be their home campus. So what are the core courses? They will have to stay in their home campus. After that when the electives start, they can either change campuses, so if someone starts in Singapore, they can go to Fontainebleau and vice versa. And then we offer different partnerships, as you mentioned, with different schools in the US and China. So what happens is that they can go to that school while they’re, say, in that school, they are full students from the welcoming school and they spend their period there and then they come back to INSEAD-
So, where are the three campuses again? I know it’s Fontainebleau, Singapore, and the third one- [3:31] There are three campuses. Fontainebleau, Singapore, and Abu Dhabi. And we opened pre COVID San Francisco hub.
So it’s not considered a full campus yet, is it? [3:43]No, it’s a hub.
Where are the partnerships? [3:49]The partnerships are with Kellogg and Wharton in the US and with SIPS in China.
When you talk about your home campus, how much time are you required to spend there? What do most students do? Or is there a most? [3:56]So there’s not statistically something consistent. They have to stay for the core courses. So for the first period they have to stay where they decided to apply to.
Because we consider that part the most intense part of the program, because they have all of these classes and all these exams and it’s like the core and they have to stay focused where they are. And then switch campuses. So it’s super interesting because now for example, for instance, we welcomed those who started in Singapore and they arrived to Fontainebleau and it’s like they discover a new school. It’s like a new campus and they get to see other participants that have started here in the program and they have moved or those who came with them. So I find it very vibrant, the campus exchange moment, because the campus is full of suitcases and they’re coming in and out, and they see new faces and you see, “Oh, I’m connected with you when we were applicants and now I see you here,” and it’s a good sense of community.
In terms of the partnership schools, is the 10 months, is it divided into semesters or you’ve mentioned periods? How does that work? [5:07]There are periods of two months.
Five plus P Zero, which P Zero starts before they arrive to campus. So we’ve got P Zero and five periods.
Could you review the language requirements both at entry and graduation for INSEAD participants? That’s a very distinctive aspect of the program. [5:29]Yes. And you know that is one very near to my heart. So as you know, or maybe you don’t, INSEAD was founded by George Doriot, who was a French Harvard professor.
I didn’t know that. [5:49]The courses at the beginning, they were taught in those three languages. So German, English, and French, which were the languages in Europe.
We’ve been adapting to the different times. English has to be validated either by your native language or by other means of assessment. We need to ensure that every MBA or every student attending INSEAD is going to be able to follow the class and make the most out of the program. So English has to be validated. If it’s your native language, we will not question it, but then you will have to validate the second language for entry reasons.
So if English isn’t your native language, you have to validate it. So there are different criteria. Most common you need to have, your whole degree has to be taught in English and it has to be specified in your transcripts or through TOEFL iBT.
And if English is your native language and your second language is French, for example, or Spanish- [6:53]There are other tests. There are local, so there are national tests that we accept many of them, but there are many different experiences. So, we’ll look at that very closely for your second language, if English is your native language. And for instance, if you for example, have completed your bachelor’s in Spanish, it would be validated too.
The second language is like a C1, so it’s fluency that we require, and it’s an admissions requirement. Now for the third language, it is an exit language, so you need it to graduate. And we do not give the diploma if you have not validated your third panel. Knowing that the level that we require is much lower. It’s an A1. When I’m talking to candidates or prospects, I always, always encourage them to get that language policy cleared before they start because the program is very intense. And they prefer to invest their time in other things than learning the language. But for us it’s like in our DNA, and this open mindedness and being able to make the most of this super international exposure, we wanted to have these three languages with you.
Upon graduation.
So I mean, in lay terms, if you want to use that, would your entry level requirement be that the person obviously have speaking and comprehension and speaking ability and some writing ability or fluent writing ability? And the exit requirement, what would that be in terms of, again, just a very approximate? I realize there are stricter requirements. I’m just trying to make it a little bit easier to grasp. [8:32]No, of course. No, the second language is quite strict. You have to go through three levels and it’s a C1, which is fluent.
You have to be able to write. [9:08]You have to be able to write. Yes.
The exit language, which is A2, is more of a little bit of everything. So, not very complicated sentences and not that you don’t have to be able to write a proper essay, but you would be able to write an email.
Very helpful. Now on one hand, you emphasize the program is intense since and it’s only 10 months. And that is, could be… I mean, it definitely is a plus on one hand. There’s lower opportunity costs, it’s very efficient, but also some applicants might be worried, “What about my internship? I want to change career paths.” Nobody goes for an MBA to do the same thing that on the way out that they did on the way in. How do you address that? [9:25]Of course. So if you start in the August intake, it’s like the real 10 months because you graduate in July. However, if you start in the January intake, you finish in December and you do have time for an internship. When I’m speaking to candidates and to prospects, “Please make this a sound decision because whether you start in January and August should not only be based on your own timing, but also think about the internship.” So those who really want an internship will start in January.
Giving the option for those who fast track or know exactly where they want to go after versus those who really want to make the most and get an internship.
Do students or participants in INSEAD ever, who start, let’s say in the September intake, do they ever do the internship immediately following graduation? Is that ever done or not too common? [10:36]I would have to ask. I’m not that sure.
What don’t people know about INSEAD that you would like them to know? What’s a common misconception, perhaps? [10:50]Misconception. That shorter is lighter.
It’s not easier. And then I also hear the other side, some other students that of course that all the MBA community they after, they all have friends who went to different schools and then they come back and can tell you, “Well sometimes we went for two years.” They had some extra downtime. And actually it’s very interesting because that was the reason why the 10 month was created because our founder could see that sometimes the second year was a lighter pace. So he decided to put it all together and make it more intense.
Our campus is like 24 hours open and you can see how they are making all of it. And I was talking to some students before today, and they’re like, “The way that we click all together,” because you also have this pressure of time. It’s going to go so quickly. And we’re always telling them, “You have to make the most.” And you hear them like, “In one week. I had relationships with people that I thought I had known for years.”
https://youtu.be/imXrEbGoDEgINSEAD clearly lists its admissions criteria and your website says they are: ability to contribute, academic capacity, international motivation, and leadership potential. I’m sure you know this, you don’t need me to tell them to you. Where are you most likely to see those qualities and the different elements of the INSEAD application? [12:05]So it’s interesting because when I’m running, I run application workshops very often, always my first slide is with this, four pictures of these four initial criteria. And I always tell them, “Whatever you share with us, be sure that it falls in one of these buckets.”
That’s great advice. [12:48]Follow up questions like, “But what’s more important?” No. The INSEAD is holistic, and I’m always saying the same. I’m always sharing with people, “At INSEAD, we are human beings behind the admissions process.” There are people reading applications and people are like, they begin this conspiracy theories like, “Oh, so you put our CV in a scan and they give you like…” No, it’s nothing like that. It’s all about holistic and we try to see everything.
So we have a lot of essays, which we are aware. We know that we ask for many essays compared to other schools, but we really want to know. And it’s not only about us deciding if you are a good candidate for INSEAD or not, but if this is what you want, this is what you need to get wherever you want to go. So these four criteria, and that’s why we are so clear about it, they need to be covered in your application. It’s interesting because I think we’ll talk about the Kira video, but the pre-selection decision is purely based on what we’ve received in the application form. And we need to be sure that those four criteria are met.
I would assume that academic capacity you typically find in the transcript and the test score? [13:53]Yes.
International motivation would probably show up in my guess both in your resume and your activities as well as the essays. [14:02]International motivation is my favorite..
Because it’s who we are. So, international motivation is about us being sure that you’re not only going to be comfortable with such diversity in the class, but they’re going to embrace it and that they’re going to be… And you know how much you’re going to learn from this diversity, and you’re going to make the most out of it. So we need to be sure of this. And how do we see it? So the most common, and where most of our candidates really check those boxes is because they’ve gone through international experiences before themselves, either studying, either working abroad. And we do believe that this aspect in your life, it’s a big experience that makes you who you are, in a way. You’ve gone abroad, you’ve gone to a different culture, you had to adapt. You had to make some compromises. You learned so many things about it. And you had to melt in. You had to-
You had to adapt, I think it’s the key thing. [15:06]So, we get that from previous experiences. Also, in other cases, we have candidates that didn’t have the opportunity of living abroad or having this experience. So we also ask them to tell us how they’ve been in an international environment and how they felt about it. So, either you are working in a country where there are many people from different nationalities, either you work in a very international company and you have to… I was going to say deal, but you have to collaborate and you have to interact with other nationalities from other countries. So that’s what we are looking. So we do ask in the essays, “What has been your experience?” And we also ask a detailed list of your international experiences you’ve had in the past.
Some applicants, they might live in a diverse country, right? And many different cultures within their own country. It’s not homogenous. It’s a heterogeneous culture. [15:57]And nowadays most of the countries are like that. That’s why companies are always looking for people who are thriving in these kinds of societies.
And ability to contribute I would assume also will come really through throughout the application, really. [16:19]Ability to contribute and leadership potential come a lot also through the essays.
What is it? And the question is like, “What is it that you bring to the class?” We want to be sure when you raise the hand, you’re going to share experiences, share what you know, ask the correct questions. And where those questions and those contributions are going to come from your past experience.
Now you mentioned the video a second ago. What is the role of the video interview in the evaluation process? [16:26]We are very happy with the video. We love the video. And our message to candidates is always like, be yourself. So when I’m presenting this application workshop, I put a picture of Salvador Dali, who is one of our most well-known artists in Spain, because he was genuine, he was himself and he wasn’t shy to show who he was. And it’s about that. I’m always telling, we are not expecting you to be a BBC reporter unless you were a BBC reporter.
So don’t try to use those fancy words or things that you think that are, but be yourself. So what we’re looking here, the role is to see who you are in a way, and communication skills. The video will reassure us a lot also on the English level and the fluidity when people speak. I understand it’s stressful so we always recommend candidates, there’s like a practice part in the platform. I always say, “Practice, practice, practice.” There are four questions, and you’ve got 45 seconds to prepare and 60 to respond. I strongly recommend to candidates, that they use those 45 seconds to work on their structure. What is it that they want to say? And then be yourself. I always tell the story that we had a candidate who was a professional break dancer, and he just went on the floor and he danced. Amazing.
That’s great. Great. That’s a great story. [18:18]It’s a great story. And this is because sometimes, and I understand look, “Oh, instead I’m going to try to use fancy words.” No, because you’re going to lose the point of the video, which is what we want to hear YOU.
He must have had something before and after to convince you that he knew English and then he showed you who he was. [18:41]That’s why we’ve got four questions and they are not… I always say that we read applications to try to look into it and accept you, not to reject you.
And so that’s why it’s important that you are yourself because for the writing, we already have your essays.
We also had someone who was doing the Kira interview, and his cat came like this. And he was so impressive how the candidate just did like that with the cat and he continued speaking.
But everything, we were all home. So we all could have, we’re human beings and that’s an important message for me. We’re human beings looking for human beings.
I’ve been trying to tell that to candidates for years, that the admissions people are not automatons, they’re human beings. [20:08]No, no. But I also see it impress us. And they really want it, but like, but we want to accept you for the correct reasons and for who you are.
Just show who you are.
https://youtu.be/MFue-9KgPk8What’s the INSEAD interview like? [20:38]Okay, so INSEAD interviews are purely run by our alumni. So, staff is not involved in the interviews. We do the matching. So we decide. So the missions officers will match the candidate with two interviewers for our MBA program. They’re purely by geographic and/or industry. And then our alumni interviewers, they will run the interview in their own style knowing that we do give them some tips. We don’t tell them what we want, what they shouldn’t do, what they should not do. But then each one has their own style, as I mentioned.
So, some of our alumni interviewers prefer to organize the interview in a much more formal setup. So they will invite them to their meeting, to their offices. Others prefer a quiet cafe. But at the end of the day, who’s been selected means that those criteria are checked. And what we are looking for is the fit with the school and the program. And our interviewers are thinking, “Would I like to have this person in my class? Would I want to have this person in my group?”
So the interview is really just be about almost fit with the community, if you will? [21:42]Almost fit with the community. And also, is this person motivated? Does this person really want to do an MBA program? Why does this person want to come to INSEAD?
Do they have those four criteria? [21:59]The four criteria are, but it’s also about the soft skill motivation. Is the motivation there? So sometimes we’ll hear this person was not passionate about INSEAD. So it’s more about passion, I would say.
And because our interviewers, they are volunteers and I always tell candidates, “They’re volunteers. They’re doing this in a way of giving back to us, to the school.” And because someone was there for the interview, they want to be there for someone else’s interview.
What’s the most common mistake you see in the application? And it can be plural too. [22:02]I would say lack of motivation. We know that our application process is long and it takes time. And we’re always telling, our recruitment team is always like, “Focus on the essays, focus on what you’re writing. You need to prepare.” So a sloppy application is a no-go. Essays that aren’t well structured, essays that are not well prepared, or things that are mismatching, lack of consistency, that would be a killer.
And does that translate to you as lack of motivation? [23:13]Yes.
And this is a big investment and it’s not only about money, but it’s also who you’re going to be. This INSEAD will follow you for the rest of your life. We tend to say that you’ll never travel alone, for instance. So it’s something that you really, we want to be sure that you are really going because you’re really going to enjoy and you’re looking for. I always say that we are looking for motivated candidates, engaged students, proud alumni.
And they know. Candidates know that pre-selection is purely based on your application form. So it’s like your business card.
Does INSEAD have any preference between the GMAT and the GRE? Any plans to go test optional? [24:05]Test optional is a no-go.
We are finding GRE and GMAT as good. Both as good predictors.
Because there was a time when I think there was a preference for the GMAT, but at this point…[24:29]At this point, no. And we see the numbers of GRE takers increasing.
And we understand that there are two different tests and they test differently. So, candidates should do some research before they prepare and they should sit the tests that fits better themselves, where they’re going to perform better.
But there’s no different expectations in terms of percentile? You should be 85% on the GRE and 75% on the GMAT? That’s no more, no longer the case? [24:50]We’re moving away from giving a strict score. It’s very difficult to get this into the candidates’ brains.
Because you hear so many, I’m sure you do too, right? Like, “Oh, I only have a 720. Am I going to get in?”
And now my latest sentence is like, “A GMAT score doesn’t define who you are.
But sometimes they’re so terrified. I met someone who told me, “I’m not going to apply for scholarships because I’ve got a 660 and I’m never going to get a scholarship with a 660.” I’m like, “And what’s the connection? Can you please share with me?”
It’s not looked at in a vacuum. [25:43]Yeah. We’re looking for… It’s not only what score you took on that day, but also what you’ve done before. Where are you working? So the academic capacity, we are broadening what we’re looking at. So your academic past background, the past background is also very important.
Linda, I had an event on Saturday, and I said, “GMAT score doesn’t define you.” I even said that I was going to get it at a tool here, like GMAT score does define who you’re. So I will show them like, this is how true this is. And afterwards we’re having a discussion, “I have this score. Am I going to get in?”
You weren’t hearing what I was saying. We just need to be sure because it wouldn’t be fair to the candidate, but they’re not going to be academically following the program and that’s what we need to be sure about. And it’s one of those four admissions criteria.
I’m glad you’re emphasizing that. Thank you. [26:57]In my application workshops, I repeat this sentence three times. Next time I’m going to ask everyone to stand up and we’re going to repeat it all together.
So let’s say I’m in the midst of preparing an application for the January 2024 intake, and there’s a deadline April 18th and June 27th, and this interview should air before the deadline. What advice would you give someone in the midst of preparing an application for an upcoming deadline? Let’s say if it’s April 18th, it’s really close or the June 27th deadline. [27:15]In the midst. I always say that applicants should aim an application deadline not because they think of those myths that they have around the application. Because then you’ve got also those myths like, if I reply to round X, I’m going to have higher chances of being accepted than in round Y. That’s not true. Apply when you, you’re ready. When you’re ready. You need to have your score. You’ve taken your GMAT or your GRE. Your applications should be towards finalizing, like proofreading more than beginning to write because it does take a lot of time.
And once you have this, the sooner the better but only because about them, because onboarding takes time. Some places you need to get visas, they have to remove transatlantic, they have to sort their lives before they come to Fontaine or Singapore. So the onboarding is better on them. And we always tell, “Be kind to yourself, so don’t try to rush it.”
But you need onboarding time.
I also just realized this show will actually air after the April 18th deadline. So we’re really talking about the June 27th deadline in terms of the January 2024 intake. And obviously there’s another deadline for the September 25, 2025 deadline. [28:47]My advice too when I’m speaking to candidates that are thinking of applying, now what I say like, take a white piece of paper and you make a circle and you write INSEAD MBA. And with the four admissions criteria in your there, you begin to write what do you want INSEAD to know about you? And you write. You write. When you fill that paper and you go and with some friends and you come back and you continue writing, and the next day you wake up and you continue writing in your brainstorm. And then you look at the application form and you look at your essays. And in each line that you wrote in that brainstorm, you put which essay you’re going to write this. And I always tell them, “If there are things that don’t fit in any other essays, you highlight it in yellow.” I like office supplies a lot, so.
And then you write. Then you get it proofread, then you read it again. Then with those that weren’t highlighted in yellow, that’s your optional essay.
That’s great advice. [29:48]But of course, because sometimes they go into it, “Okay, I’m going to reply to this essay.” Yes, but you have to read because somehow they’re connected and it depends how you want to tell your story. And it’s important. INSEAD will love your story and we want to understand who you are. I always say that when I’m looking on a file, I create someone and I add layers, who you are, where do you live, your previous experience, what do you want to do next? And that’s a good way to just don’t bias your application responses with what you thing we want to hear, but what you really want to tell us and what you want INSEAD to know about you.
I have something, a very similar system, but where I say, “Write down everything you want an individual school to know about you, look at their criteria, what do you want them to know about you? And then write down their questions.” Very, very… So I say do use a spreadsheet, but that’s basically because they all love spreadsheets, but- [30:02]I’m taking those out of their comfort zone already.
And I’ll also say some use a mind map, which is more similar, but digital. But the idea is first, figure out what you want them to know, and then figure out where you can take those things that you want them to know in the application based on the questions. And the good news is that INSEAD does ask more questions than normal, so there’s more opportunity for them to tell their story. Yes, it takes more effort, takes more work, but there is that opportunity there. [31:05]But we also see that once they’re accepted, they appreciate the time that they’ve spent thinking about… Because for us, it has to be a sound decision. You just don’t apply. And just like, “Okay, I want this school, because of these reasons.” Oh, another cater is when someone has copied and pasted their essays and you can see because they left the other schools.
That’s a killer. No, that is a… Yeah, it definitely shows a lack of motivation and attention to detail. [31:29]It’s super sloppy. Right?
Let’s say instead of applying for this upcoming cycle or a close deadline, I’m planning ahead. Okay. I want to apply in fall 2023 for the September 2024 intake. Right. So we’re really… I know the dates are, the year’s dates are nuts. Any planned changes for the application? Are you at all concerned about Chat GPT? [32:03]No.
Planning ahead. No major changes are seen for… We would never do a major change from one application to another.
So if someone wants to start ahead, download the application, look at the essays. If we were to change, maybe we would change one or we would do a minor change, but not nothing yet very major.
What would you advise the applicant planning ahead to be doing now? [32:40]Doing research. When they come to our campus, I’m so grateful. This is what you have to do. Go visit the schools. Do you feel you belong there? Talk to students. I think that they should spend much more time looking at the school. We are always welcoming to come and see it. We organize, for example, in-house events. Every two months we get to organize a master class. We have a chat where I tell them about all of these things. And we discuss like today an application, how to prepare your application.
We have also someone from my colleagues from careers sharing the career outcomes and what’s the career journey. We’ve got also people from student life sharing how is a day in an MBA program? And last but not least, we have students coming, in and it’s an open question and answer. It’s like an open mic. They just raise a question, and they ask and they reply. So for example, I think that the best thing they could do, organize to come and join us one of those. Come and meet us.
Where can listeners and potential applicants, or potential participants,learn more about INSEAD’s MBA program? [34:05]The best recommendation would be our INSEAD.edu, our website where you can find everything and reach out to us. We’re always very happy to help you.
Relevant Links:
- INSEAD MBA Admissions
- Accepted’s MBA ROI Calculator
- INSEAD Essay Tips
Relevant shows:
- How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA [Episode 498]
- How an MBA Can Help Entrepreneurs [Episode 492]
- Approaching Your MBA Application [Episode 487]
- Empowering International Students with the Financing for Grad Ed [Episode 475]
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Thanks for joining me for the 520th episode of Admissions Straight Talk.
I am taking a week off for family time. As a result, I decided to air an encore of our most popular podcast so far in 2023. To my surprise it was the solo show I did in January on preparing to apply this year.
While I was mildly surprised that the solo show was the most popular. On second thought I understood why: People are gearing up to apply in the 2023-24 cycle so the topic is timely. One of the points I make in this podcast is the sooner you start, the better your application will be. And that’s true regardless of the degree you are applying for.
I assume that many of you also took a spring break be it for a day or two or a whole week or more. I hope you spend it with loved ones, as I am doing so during my week off. I hope you had a wonderful time during your break. Thanks for listening to Admissions Straight Talk and specifically What Does 2022 Mean for Applicants in 2023.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related Resources:
- Accepted l Get Admitted to Your Dream School
- Accepted’s Med School Calculator Quiz
- Accepted’s MBA Calculator Quiz
- The Law School Admissions Calculator
- Fitting In and Standing out
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- It’s All About Authenticity and Community in Graduate Admissions
- Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know
- The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED!
- Approaching Your MBA Application
- How to Get Accepted to Graduate Engineering Programs
- What Does a UVA Law School Application Reader Look For?
- How To Get Into Dental School
- Encore: How to Get Into an MD/PhD Program
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In this episode the Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth discusses what the Adcom expects from applicants. [SHOW SUMMARY]Would you like to attend an MBA program with a tight-knit community and a strong foundation in general management, but with enough breadth that you can still do a deep dive into a specific area of interest? Dartmouth Tuck may be the perfect program for you, and today’s guest is its Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid.
An interview with Lawrence Mur’ray, the leader of Tuck’s admissions and financial aid teams. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 514th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you ready to apply to your Dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA Admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus it’s all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Lawrence Mur’ray, Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Dartmouth University’s Tuck School of Business. Lawrence has been in higher ed since he graduated high school. He earned his BA and MPA at the University of Arizona and began his career in admissions there. He then became Assistant Director of MBA Admissions at Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business, followed by a stint at UNC Kenan-Flagler where he rose to become the Director of the Undergraduate Business Program. He then served as Senior Assistant Dean of Graduate Business Programs at Fordham’s Gabelli School of Business for over six years and joined Dartmouth Tuck as Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid just this past August. 7;’/
Lawrence, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:00]Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m excited to be here.
And I’m delighted to speak with you. Now let’s start with a basic question, which is typically how I open these interviews. Can you provide an overview of Dartmouth Tuck’s MBA program? [2:06]Yeah. Great. Thank you. Again, I’m excited to be here. Thank you for having me. The Tuck School of Business is at Dartmouth College here in Hanover, New Hampshire. We are an extremely rigorous, two-year, Ivy League MBA, nestled here in the Upper Valley, which provides an opportunity to reflect and focus while you’re here. It’s an opportunity for students to really connect with one another. Again, it’s a rigorous academic program. I think sometimes people think that coming to a small school means there’s limited opportunities, but there are boundless opportunities here with a culture of collaboration and community. You can do almost anything you want to do in terms of your career aspirations. We have a culture of co-investment, so we see the students as partners along all dimensions of their journey, whether it’s the admissions journey, whether it’s the student services journey, or the career journey, and so that co-investment serves as the cornerstone of the Tuck ethos.
And in terms of the opportunities, some of the opportunities that struck me in preparing for the call, one of them was the Global Insight Expeditions. Could you touch on that? [3:20]Yeah. Our Global Insight Expeditions are a great opportunity for the students to focus on a particular area of the country with a particular faculty member. They’re typically two to three weeks, and it’s an opportunity for them to learn about a particular element of a faculty member’s research, which is anchored in a particular area. It’s also an opportunity for them to learn and understand the culture of doing business wherever they’re going. So for this winter, we sent students to Denmark, we sent students to Israel, and we sent students to Vietnam. So it’s an opportunity to build their network and also it’s an opportunity for them to engage in global teams.
And when they graduate from business school, they will be placed on the global map and working with global teams, it’s an opportunity for them to practice that on their GIXs. It’s a credit bearing class, so the students get credit for that, but it’s a wonderful opportunity. We had four GIXs in the winter, and I’m still getting used to being on a quarter system, so forgive me. We have four GIXs that went off in the winter, which for us is sort of December and January, and then we have four that are going out in the spring.
And again, you mentioned one point in the country, but is it really global? [4:39]Absolutely. We do have a couple of domestic GIXs, but the majority of them are global. And actually one unique element during the pandemic when we weren’t able to travel, one of our faculty members actually developed a virtual GIX working, he’s from India, and so was working with some NGOs in India. And the students on both ends were using AR and VR to help execute a series of projects through that GIX, and we actually will continue to do a virtual GIX as we move forward.
Now you mentioned again, the breadth of opportunities at Tuck, and of course there are concerns sometimes that students or potential students voice about going to New Hampshire, and is that going to limit them? So where are Tuckies finding jobs both in terms of geography and industry or function? [5:16]Yeah, so that’s a question that pops up a lot. I’d like to first point to our employment statistics, and I think that the perception of it being a disadvantage is aligned with the career opportunities. But if you look at our employment statistics, the numbers speak for themselves. About 98% of our students have a full-time offer at the time, usually it’s three months post-graduation. We are well represented in consulting and finance. And then after that, it’s a wide range: product management, marketing, operations, logistics, technology. About 11% of our students go into technology. That’s a growing area for us. Healthcare is a growing area for us. We have a growing area of intersection points, so we’ve got financial analytics, we’ve got healthcare analytics, we’ve got marketing analytics. So there are a lot of intersection roles that students are taking and industries that they’re going into.
Tuck is famous for the amazing degree of alumni loyalty as expressed in alumni financial support. I know this past year in 2022 you had a $52 million donation from an anonymous donor. That’s obviously a standout, but I know that the percentage of alumni participation is extremely high. I think the highest of any MBA program by far. [6:34]It is. I don’t know the exact number. It’s north of 70%.
But I don’t know the exact number. One of the things, and again, I’ve been here for six months, but one of the things that is clear, there’s one attribute that all Tuck students share. And again, I’ve been in this business for quite some time now. I’ve worked at several different schools, and it’s rare to be in a situation where all of the students experience one exact same situation. And that is for Tuck, they all had to move here and they all had to pick up their lives from wherever they were and had to move to Hanover, New Hampshire. And that single shared experience helps form the foundation of that community and that collaboration, that forms that comradery with students when they’re in the program and then that alumni loyalty when they’re out of the program.
It is spectacular to see how these students come together knowing that they’re all in the same boat. They all have to figure out their living situation. They’ve all got to figure out how do I now navigate the next two years where I’m not working and I’ve got to refocus on school, I’ve got to refocus on an internship search, I’ve got to refocus on a job search. And they get to do that all together. And again, that’s a little different from other schools. And I’ve worked at business schools that are top ranked, that are in different geographies where there’s definitely a benefit to being in New York City. That’s my last experience. But New York also presents, as much as there are opportunities in New York, sometimes that can be a little bit of a distraction. So there are lots of things to do, and I have to be honest, I’m always surprised that how little students take advantage of the things that New York City, for my former job, but it’s still a distraction.
The other part of it is in New York, a lot of time is spent commuting to school, and so you spend a lot of time, you’re either running late and starting late, or you’re leaving early trying to catch the train. So on those tail ends, that doesn’t happen here. And students, really more than half of our students live on campus in their first year, so they’re together a lot of the time. And then in the second year they live off campus. But our location is small, our school is small. Community matters. Students will come in and they will know their classmates, they will know their faculty members. When we talk about careers, one of the things I continue to be amazed with is how many alums come back to Tuck all the time.
I mean, you are walking in the hallways. It’s spring break now, so nobody’s here, but any other time, I’m being introduced to alums in the hallways or the alums are here working with the student club or organization or the alums are here serving as alumni mentors with the career services team. It’s a lot of engagement and activity, and that also means something. You have to be very intentional to come to Hanover, and you can get here by plane, trains, automobile or drive, but it’s intentional to come here. And the fact that so many alums come back and play a part in the development of the class of students below them, I think that says a lot about the culture and the community and again, that ethos of co-investment.
https://youtu.be/yzn_6EoR8dkThat was a very fascinating comment you made that everybody at Tuck has moved. They take initiative, it requires initiative. [10:28]Absolutely.
What don’t people know about Tuck that you would like them to know? Or is there a common misconception that you’d like to dispel other than what you already talked about? [10:46]Yeah, I think when you, again, I’ve been in this business for a while now, and I think that sometimes people think that regardless of the location, there are disadvantages to a small program. They think the bigger the program, the better. There are lots of benefits to some of our peers that are significantly bigger, but it doesn’t necessarily mean a better experience. One of the things that I like to tell students or that we like to tell students, consulting is a very popular industry and function for MBAs, no matter what school you’re going to. That really serves as consulting and finance really are the anchors of career services at most notable MBA programs. So when a company like Deloitte comes, and so Deloitte came for our consulting symposium in the fallthey brought a number of people with them.
Again, you have to be very intentional to come here, so you can’t come for a morning or an afternoon or just a single day. Most of the time, our employer partners come for multiple days. So wherein students in larger programs, maybe in bigger cities, they’re getting the career services partners, the alumni that are representing companies that hire students to come in for a couple of hours. When Deloitte came to visit us, they were here for three days, and so they hosted coffee chats, they were guest speakers in classes, they hosted dinners, they had some social events. So it was an opportunity for students to really engage with partners from Deloitte in a fully immersive experience that I don’t think is easily replicated at other schools.
Tuck posts its criteria, and the transparency is wonderful. It posts its criteria for admissions, and it boils down to four qualities: smart, accomplished, aware, and encouraging, which I guess kind of goes along with the co-investment theme that you’ve mentioned a couple of times. Where do you typically find each of those qualities in the application? [12:35]Yeah, we take a lot of pride, and this is one of the reasons why I chose to come to Tuck: the spirit of transparency. There aren’t very many schools that are transparent in sort of telling the prospective students exactly what it is that we’re looking for. We’re not trying to hide anything.
So when we think about smart, smart is a broad category, it’s not just what I think people think that it is, which is the numbers. The numbers are there. We are definitely, in the smart category, are looking at some of those quantitative metrics like your standardized test score, your academic background. In the academic background we’re looking for your overall GPA, but also the types of courses that you took, your grade trends and how that aligns with what you’re doing now.
We’re also looking at your professional work experience and what you’re doing. Was there a bridge between what you did at university and how you’re deploying that in your job? What exactly are you doing in your job? The scope and depth of your work experience, sort of the quantitative rigor of your work. Not everybody has that, but we are looking for that sort of analytic and technology element of work as an element of smart.
We are also looking at certification. So we have a lot of students that are coming with CPAs, with CFAs and other additional professional certifications that help indicate their level of expertise in a particular area. So those are some of the dimensions that we are looking at and that we are finding when we’re looking for smart.
When we’re looking for accomplished. Again, academics play a part in that. And so again, your academic record, your ending GPA, whatever the GPA was in your major, we’re looking at that. We’re looking again at the scope and depth of your professional work experience and growth and how you’ve moved forward and progressed in your career. So those are elements of accomplished that we can find both sort of in your academic transcript as well as on your resume and in our conversation with you during an interview.
When we are looking at aware, aware is pretty broad and it’s broad by design. Again, I mentioned this culture of co-investment a few times. And so when you have the culture of co-investment, everyone is working together towards the common good, and that means that people have to respect one another, that means people have to learn how to be vulnerable, that means people have to learn how to look inward to understand what some of those vulnerabilities are and what their strengths are, and how do they balance those or establish a harmony as they’re sort of moving forward with the teams that they work in in business school, with the communities or the organizations that they’re going to work for in their internship or full-time. And then the communities that they serve as sort of outside of work. So aware is an element that we find in your essays. We find that in the interview. We find that also in well-written letters of recommendation, and we find that to some extent in the resume as well.
And then encouraging, and again, this aligns a little with our culture of co-investment thinking through mostly around the interview, how do you deal with ambiguity? How do you deal with leading teams and managing teams and managing projects? How do you manage or navigate giving and receiving feedback? You may not be someone, there are a lot of people who come to business school and they haven’t had an opportunity to be the formal leader, but they’ve had an opportunity to lead. And sometimes that’s in work and sometimes that’s outside of work. But that element of encouraging, we can lift from, again, the essays, we can lift that from the interviews. And again, we can lift that from well-written and very thoughtful letters of recommendation.
Can you go into a little bit of what you mean by a culture of co-investment? How does that manifest itself? [16:52]Yeah, absolutely. So that manifests itself in we see the students as partners in everything that we do. So if you like for example, our Women in Business Conference, that is a big conference. We bring in probably 150, 160 prospective students to campus. It’s full of guest speakers, panels. It’s a 3-day event. The students put that on all by themselves with some guidance from the faculty and staff. But really the leaders of this are the students.
We have a new mental health and awareness initiative, although again, I’ve been in this business for a long time. That’s always been a thing. It’s only recently become a notable thing that people are talking about. But for those of us that have been around for a while, this has always been an issue that we’ve had to deal with. But our students played a big part in helping us come up with our approach for our mental health and awareness initiative. Part of that was serving on a university-wide committee to bring in a telehealth service, and then they helped design our peer mental health advisors, that entire initiative, the students helped co-design it. And so they literally went from start to finish and we just rolled it out. We just finished the elements of the design just before the winter break, and we will roll it out in earnest here after spring break.
And so there’ll be a number of different peer counselors that are deployed throughout the first year class and the second year class to help us really keep our ear to the pulse of what’s going on with the students, and to serve as a sounding board for students who might be struggling, and to serve as a first alert for when we might need to escalate things to a higher level to ensure that someone is getting the help and the resources that they need.
So by co-investment, kind of like the school is investing in the students and you’re hoping the students will be active participants, initiators, whatever in the campus community as well. [18:54]Absolutely.
And that initiative that they show by coming to Tuck will continue while they’re there? [19:05]Absolutely. And that’s born out, again, in our annual giving rate as well as our level of engagement, not just the giving, but level of engagement just across the board with the business. So again, I think in any given week there’s probably 15 or 20 alums that are on campus doing something.
https://youtu.be/kqOnhNdlxlYWhat accommodations has Tuck made in light of the recent layoffs that have caused many business schools to do different things. What’s Tuck done? [19:31]So we announced back in January that we were deploying a GMAT GRE test waiver option for those who were negatively impacted by those economic and employment disruptions. Of course, this started notably in the tech sector, but very quickly went beyond the tech sector. So our initiative was for our round three applications, and it was industry agnostic. But it was an opportunity for folks to submit an application to be considered for a GMAT GRE test waiver. And we were looking at, number one is you had to be unemployed.
And then if you submitted the application, you were unemployed and you met a few other top line criteria, then we would look at your academic background. So we were looking for an undergraduate academic background that was steeped in technology, quant, analytics. Then we were looking at advanced coursework, graduate coursework or maybe certificate programs or something, again, that was steeped in technology, quant or analytics.
And then the third category that we were looking at was your professional work experience and whether that professional work experience was steeped in sort of quantitative work data or analytics.
So we had those three buckets. The more of those buckets you could check off, the more likely you were to be granted the waiver. The fewer of those buckets you check off, the less likely you were to be granted the waiver. And again, we did it for our round three. The deadline for that was actually March 1st. So that gave us plenty of time to do all the evaluation of the applications for the fee waivers. And then for those folks who weren’t granted, not a fee waiver, but a test waiver, it gave them the opportunity to study and sit for the exams.
Do you think the test waiver policy will be extended to next year? [21:32]We’ll have to see. We’ll wait and see what it looks like at the end of this year. We’ve still got quite a ways to go. We’re getting ready to release round two on Thursday, and then we are still knee-deep in round three, so we’ll have to see what this looks like at the end.
What advice would you have at this point in time for somebody thinking of applying in the 2023- 2024 cycle? [21:54]A lot of people think that the third round or the later rounds are bad rounds and that they put you at a competitive disadvantage. I’ve never really fully understood that, but I do understand that there are some of our peers that the bulk of their enrolled classes are coming from early deadlines, but that’s only a handful of schools. I think most of us do have to rely on the full breadth of the admission cycle. So that’s all rounds of the admission cycles. I think schools will be hard-pressed to turn away strong candidates that come in in later rounds. Again, there are some exceptions, there are some of our peers where with the bulk of their enrolled classes are built off of round one and round two. And some of those peers, they don’t even have really a third round, they only have two admission cycles. But I think schools will be hard-pressed to turn away any strong candidates that come in later in the admission cycle.
Obviously when we’re talking about seats in classes and the dollars that are left, that really is the same calculus that you have to think about whether you are applying round one versus round two, and round two versus round three. As more students come in and submit their enrollment deposits and commit, schools are looking at a finite number of seats available in a class. And so that’s just something that you have to take into consideration. I will say that people shouldn’t rush. So I know a lot of people right now because I think Microsoft or one of the tech companies just said that they were … No, Meta.
Meta slashed 10,000 more jobs. And so I would definitely caution folks about rushing into the application process. The reason why most schools have multiple deadlines is to provide students with the opportunity to present their application when it’s at the strongest that it can possibly be. For some folks, that may mean multiple attempts at a standardized test. For some, the self-reflection or the self discernment piece and finding which schools I’m going to apply to takes a little bit longer. So they may apply in round two, round three or round four. I know there are several schools now, so several of our peers have extended their third deadlines and added a fourth deadline.
I was just going to ask if you have any plans to do that. [24:31]We don’t have any plans to do that. Students just need to be thoughtful about that. So whether you apply now or wait and apply early, I think that depends on how you assess your readiness and competitiveness in the application process.
What can those invited to interview at Tuck expect if they’re lucky enough to be invited? [24:50]Yeah, I think you can expect a conversation, not low intensity, but low risk I should say. I think a lot of people get wound up and they think that we’re trying to trick you with, and this is for any school, that the schools are trying to trick you with trick questions in the interview, and that’s going to be a grilling. This is not. We want to have a very civil conversation just to learn a little bit more about who you are, what makes you tick, why you’re interested in the Tuck School, why you’re interested in pursuing an MBA, and how all of that fits into your short-term, mid-term, and long-term goals and objectives. And along the way, we’ll ask you some questions about how you handle stress and adversity, how you communicate, how you give and receive feedback, and just some of the other elements of you that make you you, that you might want to share with us.
Tuck last year had three essay questions. Why are you pursuing an MBA? And why Tuck? Tell us who you are. I’m summarizing here. And describe a meaningful experience in which you exemplified one or more of these attributes. Attributes being encouraging, collaborative, and empathetic. Do you anticipate any changes to those questions? [25:50]That’s a good question, and we will start thinking about what the next application looks like here in late April or early May. So we’ll see. I think that the industry that we’re in is that a little bit of a crossroads when it comes to MBA applications, and we just talked about ChatGPT and its impact on a lot of different things. So we are going to be very thoughtful and deliberative in thinking through what the application for the next cycle looks like.
Also this’ll be, I guess, your first full application cycle at Tuck. [26:45]Absolutely.
Have you played at all with ChatGPT? [26:52]I have. I’ve played a lot with it. The output is only as good as the input.
What question would you have liked me to ask that I haven’t asked? What would you like to answer? [27:13]What would I like to answer? I think, again, sort of going back to the advantages of being in a small New Hampshire town, you get to know your classmates. One of the other elements that I’ve always thought very highly of Tuck about, and again, I’ve been in this business for a long time and I’ve known the folks here at Tuck for a long time. Back when I worked at Indiana University, I worked with a lot of folks from Tuck, and I’ve always been impressed with just the level of engagement across the board. And I think that part of that is when you come here, and again, we talked about everyone has to pick up and move but this is a place where you can’t hide. And that’s not a bad thing.
It’s getting to know your classmates and getting to know the faculty and getting to know the staff. And with that high engagement of alumni, the thing that has impressed me, one of the things that has impressed me the most is I went to South America and met up with about 15 alums and the age range was about 10 years, class years. And you would’ve never known that they were in different class years. They were just talking as if they all sat in their finance class together or their GIX to Denmark together, and that was amazing. Again, a 10-year gap. And then that was replicated. I went to London, had a chance to meet with some of the folks and again, a wide range of years, class years, but they all got along as though they were sitting in the class together just yesterday. So that level of camaraderie I think is something that adds to that element of fit and in how you can thrive in your time during an MBA.
Might also be something to show that you want to be a part of and that you’ve provided comradery and participation and co-investment in the past if you are applying successfully at Tuck. [29:18]Yeah.
All right, Lawrence, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve really enjoyed learning about Tuck’s MBA program and admissions process and community. Is there a URL you’d like to share? [29:29]Sure, tuck.dartmouth.edu will take you right to our main landing page.
Relevant Links:
- Tuck360 blog
- Dartmouth Tuck MBA Admissions
- MBA Admissions Quiz
- Dartmouth Tuck MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines [2022 – 2023], Class Profile
Related shows:
- What Does 2022 Mean for Applicants in 2023 [Episode 505]
- The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
- How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA [Episode 498]
- How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA [Episode 488]
- Approaching Your MBA Application [Episode 487]
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Tune in to hear all that University of California Irvine program in public health has to offer and learn about the future UCI School of Population and Public Health. [Show Summary]The Master in Public Health (MPH) degree experienced enormous growth since the COVID lockdown. One of the leading and largest programs in public health is offered by UC Irvine, and we are talking to the director of that program today, Dr. Bernadette Boden-Albala.
Interview with Dr. Bernadette Boden-Albala, Director of the UCI Program in Public Health and Founding Dean of the future UCI School of Population and Public Health. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 517th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. The challenge at the heart of graduate admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and are a standout in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download,Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance.
Our guest today is Dr. Bernadette Boden-Albala, director of the UCI Program in Public Health and founding Dean of the future UCI School of Population and Public Health. Dean Boden-Albala, prior to moving to UC Irvine in 2019, served as social epidemiologist at Columbia University and then as professor and senior Associate Dean at NYU. She earned her MPH and her doctorate in Public Health from Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health.
Dr. Boden-Albala, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:45]Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here.
Can you give us, just for starters, an overview of UCI’s MPH program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:52]Sure. So first of all, our MPH degree program was established, oh, almost over a decade ago. 2010. It was accredited, which is critically important, by the Council on Education for Public Health, CEPH, in 2012. And it was really the first professional degree of the UCI public health program, and a big component, again, of this envisioned UCI School of Population and Public Health. And I should say that even before we had an MPH program, we have a very large, one of the largest and most diverse undergraduate programs in public health. And so even though the program started about 12 years ago, we have a wonderful public health faculty that has really been doing public health for a longer time than that. And really the aim of the program is to create public health practitioners who really work independently and collaboratively to develop and implement strategies that are really going to reduce the burden of disease and disability globally, locally and globally.
And I would say a real distinction is our focus on community and partnering with community. And I think we have some of the best, if not the best, community-based or community-engaged researchers. And Orange County, which is one of the largest counties in the country, is a very diverse county, and a lot of our faculty are working with all different populations in the county. And so that really is, I think, a huge distinctive feature. And when you’re working in partnership with communities, automatically your focus is going to be on health equity. And we were doing health equity long before a lot of people were even talking or thinking about health equity. And so that is the foundation – community engaged work, health equity – of what we do. And then you add on top of that incredible work in public health science. And our MPH students and our MPH used to be a small boutique program, 15, 20 students, and it’s now grown to over 100 students and growing.
And we’ve been adding faculty since I got here in 2019. Our faculty has tripled. And again, we’re bringing in all of these folks whose work really threads this health equity, community work, a lot of work on environmental health disparities. When a lot of other programs in the country about 15 years ago really sort of closed down or took environmental health programs and moved them into other areas, we built ours up and now we have this very strong environmental and occupational health department, and that also includes a center that’s state funded on occupational health. We also have a very strong epidemiology and biostats department with a big focus on cancer control and screening, especially in diverse communities. Our oldest department is population health disease prevention, and that really is focused on both global health and also biological determinants of health.
What would be a biological determinant of health? [5:28]Oh, so really focused on things like biomarkers and understanding biomarkers.
Like the breast cancer gene, for example? [5:37]Breast cancer gene. Genes for depression, things about biomarkers and stress, measuring cortisol through hair, and looking at population level stress which is coming from things like social determinants of health. And our last department is health society and behavior. And as you can imagine, they’re really thinking about all of the social determinants of health and then thinking about health policy and really how to move the evidence base forward.
I saw that there are four main paths through the MPH program. I realize that you have a very large undergraduate program, but Admissions Straight Talk is focused on graduates, so we’re going to focus on the MPH if that’s okay with you? [6:14]Yes, yes, absolutely.
What are the four main paths through the MPH program? [6:29]So epidemiology and biostatistics is a key path, and that’s really training. So for biostats, you’re thinking about the development and application of statistical reasoning and methods. And a big area in biostats now is that we actually have a very large program that’s focused on health informatics and really using large data sets like electronic health records data sets. We hear this term precision medicine, precision health, right? How to individualize health to that patient or to that individual. But I talk about precision public health, and it’s really understanding that populations are different, that they experience diseases differently, and to use these large data sets to help us understand what that would look like. And that’s, of course, then this area through which people can go, biostats or epidemiology, really understanding the etiology of disease. And one area within that is social epidemiology, which is what are the social influences that impact disease and the way in which populations experience that disease?
So that’s sort of one area. We talked a little bit before about environmental health, and this really provides students the opportunity to examine how the health of the population is affected by biological, chemical and physical factors in the environment. And there’s a lot of work now. We talk a lot about climate change and health. We were just talking, Linda, about the rain in California and about climate change. And we see this all over the country, all over the world, and our folks in environmental health are working on problems like, what happens if you are exposed to intense heat for weeks at a time, and what does that do to you? Does it make it vulnerable to other diseases, et cetera? How does that influence your health? And then the other thing with environmental health is, different populations are in very different environments. And so we talk about experiencing diseases differently.
These environments then may lead to a higher incidence of certain diseases in certain populations because of exactly where those populations live. And so, environmental health, clean air, clean water, all of those things, that’s another pathway. And then sociocultural diversity and health. And this has really become big and it’s so important. It’s the work that I’ve been doing for two decades is really understanding the social impact. And it’s not just about access. It’s about things like structural racism and how to identify structural racism. Structural racism in health, and how to identify those factors and how to make changes so that we have health equity so that everybody really gets the resources they need to be successful in optimal health and wellbeing.
https://youtu.be/9sfskeD-hegBesides the MPH, which I said we were going to focus on, what are the other graduate degrees offered at UCI in public health? [9:51]Yes. So we have a master’s of science in environmental health science. So that kind of work is around things like toxicology. So there’s a whole science around environmental health. And so, those students are really focused on that. That’s very lab based. And we also have a master’s of science in epidemiology, and we’re planning on hopefully increasing our masters of science programs as well down the road probably in the next year or two to include a masters of science, for example, in biostatistics where those folks would, now, if you get an MPH in biostatistics, which is a degree we give out, same kind of thing, but how to apply this kind of statistical reasoning to go out into a lot of industries, including, for example, the pharmaceutical industry.
And so, while we’ve got a real focus on community and populations and government as places where those with the MPH can then work after, there are also private industries that are really very excited and want to have students trained, again, in a master of science or a MPH. And then I know we’re not talking about the undergraduate at all, but we also have a number of doctoral degrees also.
We have a PhD in public health, which is in disease prevention, one of them. And the other is in global health. So there’s a PhD in public health with two emphasis areas. A PhD in epidemiology and also a PhD in environmental health sciences. And that’s focused on toxicology and exposure sciences is one area. And then, environmental epidemiology. And remember we talked a lot about thinking through environmental health disparities, how to identify that, how to think about, so one of our faculty just presented some great data around pregnancy and green space, and that’s what an environmental epidemiologist would do.
Is it important to have trees? Is it important to have flowers, right? Are there differences, grass or trees? And it turns out there might be some differences. So that’s what you do in environmental epidemiology. And so those are other things that we are offering. We also have a certificate now in health informatics. We are starting a center for bioethics, a really important area. So we’re just growing.
And I would say that I think the most important thing to take away is that there are many paths to optimizing health and wellness. You can go down a policy path or an epi path, or you could go and do sort of social cultural work or access work. And it doesn’t really matter which path. You need to take the path that you have the most passion about so that you can be most successful. And we’re always happy to talk to anybody who has questions about which path may work best for them.
Sounds like there’s really a lot of, not only opportunity, well, I guess the opportunity would be where they get jobs. But there are programs that are very quantitative, more programs that are very scientific, chemistry oriented. [9:51]That’s right.
Probably more than some that are more community oriented within the field. Am I correct? [13:23]That is absolutely correct. But I will tell you that the trading, and I actually teach the MPH graduate seminar series, which is a two-quarter course at the end of the first year, that all students with getting an MPH will really understand the critical importance of the evidence-based public health science and how to really translate that to community. And I think we did a poor job during COVID, and I think we all, as leaders in public health, have learned a lot about what not to do anymore. So we need to give students the confidence to be able to defend science, and then we need to be able to give them the experience and skills to translate that out so that they can work in any community partnering with those communities, and hopefully we move in the right direction towards, again, optimal health.
When do you anticipate that happening, and why is it the school of population and public health? That’s distinctive. [14:41]That’s a great question. And distinctive is exactly what we want to be. So UCI has always been thinking about a school in public health, and we have a lot of schools at UCI, we’re a 50,000 plus campus.
Well, we’re integrated now. That’s really wonderful and UCI is topnotch on education. I left the privates to come out here to UCI because I felt I could no longer graduate students who were 150 plus thousand dollars in debt. And we’re really working, by the way, towards getting our masters in public health students out debt free.
And right now, they’re about $60,000 in debt. That’s the average. That’s less than what you see in most other schools of public health, but that’s way too much. Public health is a noble profession. But anyway, UCI has always backed and wanted to have a school of public health. Again, we’ve had a small program. I was hired about, well, four years ago in 2019 to make that transition. During that time, we grew from one department to four departments.
As I mentioned, we tripled our faculty. We’re growing our students especially, really focused on our professional MPH program, which is exactly what the world and the nation needs, right? Workforce needs of over 250,000 people in public health are needed across this country. And so we are on the way. We are very much on the way. We’re in the University of California system, so there is a bureaucracy. And we had to write a proposal which was just great, because it really gave faculty the time to think about what they wanted and how we could do things differently than other schools of public health, and what we wanted to focus on, which I have elaborated on in the last couple of questions.
Community and communication and science and enhancing the evidence base and thinking about environmental health and cancer and cardiovascular disease. So we’ve got the proposal, and it went all the way up through the system as a pre-proposal. And now it’s going back in as a full proposal. And we’re really hoping over the next few months to get a sign off on that. And that’s really important for students. I remember, I was at Columbia, as you had mentioned, and I think I started at Columbia when we were also a program and not a school. And we transitioned to being one of the great schools of public health, Columbia University Mailman School, across the country. And it’s just so great for students. Again, we’re an accredited program already.
And so, to be a school, we would then go through accreditation for a school. And that doesn’t diminish the accreditation for a program, but just enhances and really looks at the whole soup to nuts, the undergraduate, the PhD, and of course, really highlights the MPH as the professional degree in public health. And so, I think it would mean that we would have enhanced opportunities. There are some large grants out there that are only given to schools. For example, we would be this great program in this very large county really working in partnership with our community stakeholders and our government partners to really lead public health and to be that model. And so, I think it is just going to be a wonderful thing for students. Our students are thrilled to be in a program, but I think moving to the next step would just be fantastic for everyone.
When do you think, assuming that you get approval and things go forward, when do you think it would be a school as opposed to a program? And for students in the program, what do you think? What are the advantages? Is it enhanced internship opportunities, enhanced research opportunities, just more prestige to the degree? [18:46]I think there’s more prestige to the degree. I think there are definitely enhanced research opportunities. I think for our MPH students, we’ve really worked very, very hard in the last four years to really get a handle on what these practicum opportunities look like, and then how to take those practicums and move them into jobs. COVID, I think, in some ways helped that. One of the things that we did in the last couple of years is that we hired to be director of our MPH program, we hired a seasoned public health practitioner, David Soleis, who had worked both at the county for quite a while, actually into the beginning of COVID, and he was also at the California State Department of Health office for a number of years as well. And so, getting practitioners in leadership roles in these sorts of programs or schools is important.
I think it is the prestige. Also, we’re moving up in the rankings. When I got here, we were ranked at 41. We’ve moved 10 points in a very few years up to 31. We’re now number 19 comparing all across all schools and programs. And that’s private. 19 in the, sorry, 19 in the publics and 31 across. And I think that it’s harder to move into the top 20 or top 10 as a program. That’s when you really need to be a school.
And you ask then, why population in public health and why not? So it’s interesting. What we do is public health, we’re trained in public health, we’ll always be trained in public health, but the world has really looked at public health, in some ways very negatively, very punitive.: The quarantine people. And so, one of the things we wanted to do was be really inclusive of everyone and really trying to change how people thought about public health by thinking about population.
We’re really about the population, the community. And so, we ended up with this name, whatever our naming gift will be, hopefully, but a school of population and public health. And so, hoping to really get people to be positive about public health as a field and adding population.
https://youtu.be/16MeqJ0_06YLet’s turn to the application and the application process for the MPH. What are you looking for in terms of academics from applicants? And I’d like you to break down the academics into coursework, grades, and I noticed the GRE is waived. So if there’s anything else relevant, but those two, those three. [21:43]Academics first, and then we’ll talk about other things.
Yeah. So that’s great. So we are really looking for academically rigorous students. We are a top program in public health, so we are really looking for students with at least really a 3.0 or better and really more towards 4.0. We’d like to see that they have excelled in the sciences, because public health is a science. But we also would like to see that they’ve explored other areas, whether it’s social science or anthropology or philosophy. Because public health is not just science, but it’s really then the translation of science into things that we can do to optimize health in communities. And so, a broad liberal arts education would be wonderful. Those students tend to be well-read and can write, which communication is really important. And with some biology and some math skills, there’s a lot of data in public health. And so, maybe you’re not going to run the statistics for a program, but you certainly need to be able to interpret. And not just interpret, but translate that then out to lay populations.
And so that’s what we’re really looking for. And the other thing, though, I want to say, is don’t be discouraged. If you started out as a freshman and didn’t do so well in college, but then realized, I really am determined. I’m going to go and your GPA increases and your grades look better, that’s okay. So don’t be discouraged because we want people who’ve had real life experiences. And not all the time is everything easy.
And so we’ve waived the GREs for the MPH. Now, most schools of public health have now waived the GREs. And there’s concern that the GREs are actually biased against populations that have limited access to things like tutoring or to any kind of practice related organized activities, that they’re biased towards people who have had a lot of AP advanced placement in high schools. And everybody’s coming from a different type of educational experience. So we’ve done away with our GREs for the MPH students. But if you’re going to do epidemiology or biostats, we’re going to expect that you’ve taken some calculus or some statistics in college and that you’ve done well.
Let’s say you have an applicant whose grades aren’t fantastic, and maybe even the trend isn’t that great, or maybe there’s just an upward trend at the very end. Would you look at a GRE score? Would that be beneficial for that applicant? Are you not even looking at them? [24:58]We’re really not looking at GRE scores. Students are always encouraged to provide supplemental materials, right? And so you’re talking about a student that is a good test taker, but for whatever reason, worked three jobs and had other things going on. And just so you know, we have moved towards holistic admissions, right? And so that’s really taking the student as a whole and evaluating them that way. I mean, I was somebody who did work two jobs and probably could have done a little bit better at that time on my GREs or whatever, or the math class. But I didn’t have time. I was running around. And I think a lot of our students running around working, running around providing income for whatever, for family. A lot of our students have that. A lot of our students have really had very tough lives. And so, the holistic approach allows us to do that.
And so let me just tell you that it used to be a decade ago that the first thing, I’ve reviewed a lot of applicants in a lot of institutions, and it used to be that the first thing we would do is just cut off by GPA. So anybody under a GPA, you’re out. And then same thing with scores. And so then you’re left with this very limited amount of people, most of whom had lived more privileged lives. And now we have, and it’s not just us, but education has really moved, higher ed, thank goodness, to a place where it says, I want to evaluate the individual as a whole. And that is absolutely what we want to do and are trying to do. And so that means that if you have had some difficulty.
Could have been illness, it could have been financial, it could have been family, mental health, whatever. [27:09]Exactly. Do not hesitate to tell us, to explain. Do not hesitate to provide some insight because that’s what we need, right? How else can we know you as an applicant if you haven’t done that? And then take advantage, if you can, of opportunities for research or volunteering or working in a nursing home, right? And then really, I think it’s so important, the most important thing to focus on for an application is your personal statement, right? Because that is really how, it’s the only way that we get to know you. And really, I would say be very thoughtful about that and try to bring it in and integrate in what your vision of public health and how you want to be part of public health. And that’s the way that you’ll get into a great school like UCI.
That’s great advice. Thank you. Now, you touched on volunteering maybe in a nursing home, wherever. Experientially, what do you recommend applicants have in their background when they apply? [28:12]I think that working in communities or working around health is probably really important, and that’s very broad. So I talked about a nursing home. When I was in high school, I did whatever it was, big brother, big sister, right? Just a sense of perspective about society. And you get that perspective when you do those kinds of volunteer activities. And so, that to me, whatever it is, or even showing innovation and initiative by starting a new club. We have great students even in our undergrad who do a lot of work. They’re sort of justice advocates, right, around justice. And so those are the kind of things that build character, and that’s what we really want in public health. So those kind of activities are great.
UCI requires the SOPHAS application, which is for masters in public health, as well as a personal history statement and a statement of purpose. Now, you kind of touched on that a minute ago when you talked about your vision for public health, but what are you hoping to glean from those documents that you don’t get from the rest of the SOPHAS? And how do you view them as being different? [29:24]The two different statements you mean?
Personal history statement. I mean, I think I know what the difference is, but I’d like you to tell the listeners, what is the difference between the personal history statement and the statement of purpose? What are you hoping to get from it? [29:52]Yeah, so the statement of purpose, I think, really reflects a sense of maturity in thinking about what public health is. And people probably, students probably don’t know this, but 20 years ago, you didn’t even get into an MPH program unless you had at least two to five years of experience in public health. And so, people would have to put those experiences together. And so statements of purpose, so we’re not asking for that now, but we’re asking for the same kind of level of maturity about what you think public health is and how you think you can work through public health. What do you want to do? To say something like, I really just want to help the world. I think that’s wonderful. So tell me how and why, and the statement of purpose is, how are you going to think about helping the world?
What are you going to do? Well, I want to be an epidemiologist because I really like numbers and I want to understand the social impact of diseases. So in COVID, we saw these huge disparities by race, ethnicity, and so I think that might be a result of structural racism. And so what I want to use my epi degree for is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so you really, you’ve thought about it, and that’s what we want. We want students who are thinking about it, not just watching CIS or whatever television show.
The joke that everybody knows is, halfway through COVID, I got a call from my mother and she said, now I finally know what you do.What do you mean? I’ve been doing this for 25 years. And she said, yeah, but I just never knew. I said, I’m an epidemiologist. But COVID helped define what people in public health did, and that everybody does different things.
And so when you apply, it’s a serious degree. It’s a noble degree. It’s as noble as medicine or nursing or pharmacy or dentistry, social work. It’s a noble degree, and you need to think it through and think about how you are going to contribute. And so, that’s a statement of purpose, if you will. And your background, again, is how I got to where I am and what happened along the way, and to get to know me as a person. So they’re really very different. And we have a really fine group of faculty who review all of this and are really thinking again about this holistic approach.
We want to understand if students are diverse, because diversity is an asset. We want to make sure that we admit students that are all different, varied backgrounds and experiences, because students come together and they’re a cohort and they influence each other and each other’s thinking. So we don’t want everyone to be the same because we know that diversity is really the key to helping solve all of these problems. We love students who have gone out into the fields, whether it’s here in the US, whether it’s globally.
We want to know about those experiences and what they thought about those experiences. And we love students who, maybe they have another degree. Maybe they already have a RN, for example. And they’ve been very focused on treating individual patients. Public health is about the community, and maybe they’re thinking, I enjoy treating my patients, but I really want to think about community health, and I want to think about what that looks like. And so, again, diversity, but I will also say, engineering students, we need you in public health, computer students, we need you in public health because you bring skills and a different perspective. And that’s, again, how we’re going to solve some of these major problems.
Question about the statement of purpose. A lot of times, statements of purpose will also say, I’m applying to program X. I want to long-term solve whatever problem they want to solve, but I’m going to use X, Y, A, B, C resources in the program to prepare me to address those problems. Do you want to also know a little bit about why UCI, what path they’re going to take, or that’s not so important to you? [34:02]It’s very important for our PhD students. I think it’s nice to have that for the MPH, but the MPH is a professional degree. It’s a little bit different, but it would be nice to know that, for example, they say, I want to do community engaged research. And Dr. LeBron, Tanja Siri, Roe and Mori are the top community participatory researchers in the country, and I want to do my MPH with them. That’s wonderful. That really, again, that shows that they’re mature in their thinking about this.
And I would just add passion is so important, and that comes through by when you look at excitement. So to try to have some passion in these statements is great.
What is a common mistake that you see applicants make in their applications? [35:24]Missing application deadlines.
And also, another common, I think, sort of statement of purpose or background is people have had events that have changed their lives, and they want to tell you about those events. But what happens is they’ll tell you about the event, and then they’ll think that you as the reader can just get from that event to being an applicant in public health. If you’re going to tell us that you’re inspired to do public health because your grandmother had cancer.
Why don’t you become an oncologist? [36:11]Right? Well, right. Then work through the logic, right? I’ve seen the most incredible statements that start with my grandmother had cancer, and flow through, and it’s because of this, this and this, that I realized that I wanted to do this, and I wanted to work with communities around cancer and cancer survivorship. And then I saw that my grandmother had cancer and I want to go into public health. And the mistake there is I have no idea what’s in between there and in the thinking and how am I supposed to get to know you? So it’s good to have the pivotal moments, but you have to make the connections.
You’re not, in other words, you said this a couple of times in different ways, but you’re not a good mind reader. [36:56]No. Nobody is.
No. And we get hundreds of applications, right? So we are selective, and so I need to know why. Tell me why.
Is an interview part of the application process? [27:18]It’s not part of the MPH process. I think that there have been cycles when everybody gets interviewed over the decades, and then not. Should it be? I think probably, but I also think it’s very hard. How do you get students in, is it different in Zoom than in person, et cetera. So right now it’s not, although we do want to meet our students when they get accepted. And if you’ve been accepted to UCI, congratulations. We’re hoping to see you at admitted students day next week.
What makes an applicant jump off the page to you in a positive way? [37:58]Again, I think diversity, maturity, perspective, those are the key things. And of course, excellence. Excellence in everything that they’ve done or tried, or applicants who have the maturity to say, I had to work two jobs. And so, this is how I structured my educational experience so I could do those two things. So maybe it took five years instead of four, right? So I think maturity, passion, and also really important is knowing what public health is. And that’s something that, if you don’t know what public health is, you should come in and you should talk to our faculty, and you should get a sense. That’s where exploring schools becomes so important. But if you don’t know what public health is, jumping into a MPH professional degree, it’s going to be tough, because your expectations and our expectations may not be the same. And so, that’s an unsuccessful educational experience.
How do you view letters of intent or update letters at any time during the process or correspondence from waitlisted applicants? [39:13]I think they’re great. I’m wondering what my whole admissions committee would say about that, but I think there are no, I think it’s very, very important. Things happen, which can change in a really positive way for students, and they need to let us know, because I think that’s critically important. I’m going to get in trouble, I’m sure, after this, but I think that that’s important. So actually, our graduate student affairs team is really interested in that. And we’ll make sure that that gets incorporated in big things, right?
Right. I mean, you might want to do a summary of things that have happened, including one big thing and a few small things. That’s fine. It’s better not to get something every week, but maybe wait. But again, you’ve got this tight deadline, right? Applications are due usually in the middle of December, right, and then we’re going to start looking in the beginning of January. So you want to get stuff in when it happens, especially if it’s a big thing.
Now, you have a MPH. [40:30]I do.
You’ve been in the field as a professor and administrator for roughly two decades. What would you tell yourself if you were applying in 2023 or 2024 for a MPH? [40:32]Yeah, that is a great question. What would I tell myself?
What would you advise yourself? What didn’t you realize? What would you advise yourself? [40:48]Yeah, I would advise myself to really take advantage of the faculty that are around during the MPH if you’re in the program, right? That’s what you’re talking about, in the program?
No, I’m talking about as an applicant. [41:10]Oh, as an applicant.
As an applicant. I think it’s great advice, by the way, when you’re in the program. You just said it. [41:13]You asked a question, which I think was a great question, before, which was about, do you describe the people you might want to work with? And so I do think you should decide, so not all MPH programs are the same. So that’s the first thing, okay? And while we have this wonderful US news and World Report rankings, it’s controversy on that, obviously. But while we do have that, you have to decide, you have to say, I want an MPH. Why? What do I want to do with it? And so you need to make sure that you get, it’s not dissimilar to undergraduate, that you find programs that are going to have the things that interest you. So for example, global health, right? If you’re interested in global health, you want to go to a program that has global health experiences. You want to go to a program where a lot of faculty do global health, right?
Again, the same thing with community engagement. If you’re really set on doing cancer, look to see how many people are doing cancer. Also, I think I would look to see, what are the experiences of partnerships or collaborations across different schools? Who’s working with who, and maybe how do you do that? How do you find that out? So one thing you do is you can find the faculty that you might be interested in because of the area. Look them up, look at their papers. Are they collaborating with other people around the university? Because I think that those collaborations can lead to really positive things and can also be networks for you if you’re set on an area. And I would, of course, before I applied, ask, should I wait or should I move forward? How strong is my application? Would my application be stronger if I spent the next eight to nine months volunteering at an organization or whatever it is?
So I think making, really, really getting my application as strong as possible, talking to people in the field and identifying, say, the five schools around the country or around the state, whatever, five schools and programs that really are the best match for you. So say I don’t want to stay on campus. I’m taking care of my grandmother, and I want to live at home. You don’t want to have a five hour commute every day. So it depends upon what, and then thinking about people like me on the campus. How many people have lived in communities like the ones I’ve lived in that have gone to the school and that have been successful? And what does the student body look like? And how am I going to feel that I fit in? Do most of the students work? Do most of the students not work? Right? Is it a commuter school? So all of those things, plus then, what’s the science and where do I fit into the science?
What would you have liked me to ask you? [44:27]On this one, I think I’m very happy that you asked about the application. I think that’s important. One thing I always ask students when I see them is, what do you see yourself doing in 10 years, right? Because that eliminates all of the work of the MPH and the PhD if you’re going to go on that way. And I think that gives me a good sense of where they, both their maturity level, but what are they most attracted to? And so say you really want to go into the CDC and be an epidemic intelligence officer, right? So you might want to look at an Emory and you might also want to look at other schools that have sent students to go to the CDC, for example. So I think that that’s really important is envisioning yourself 10 years from now, thinking about where you want to be, and then thinking about if that program or school is going to get you there.
That’s great advice. Thank you so much. Dr. Boden-Albala, I think we’re almost out of time. You’ve been really generous with your time, and I want to thank you for joining me and sharing your expertise. This has been absolutely delightful. Where can listeners learn more about UCI’s MPH program? [45:30]PublicHealth.uci.edu.
Relevant Links:
- UCI Program in Public Health
- Graduate Admissions – UCI Program in Public Health
- An MPH/Postbac Grad’s Journey Through Med School
- Master of Public Health (MPH) SOPHAS Packages
- An MPH/Postbac Grad’s Journey Through Med School
- Interview With a DO/MpH Pursuing his Passion
Related Shows:
- Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know [Episode 513]
- MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require? [Episode 499]
- Harvard MD/MPH Student and Premed Podcaster Mary Tate [Episode 257]
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In this episode Dr. Patrick Reed and Prof. Robert Newman discuss the Engineering Management Program at Cornell and what the Adcom wants to see in applicants. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you an engineer who wants to stay in a technical environment but move into managerial roles? Cornell’s Engineering Management Masters may be the answer to your prayers. And it comes in two flavors: On campus and online. We’re going to learn about both from the directors of the program so tune in.
An interview with both the Director of Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management Program and the Executive Director/Senior Lecturer of Engineering Management at Cornell University. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 516th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today’s interview, I want to mention a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you are applying to graduate engineering programs. Applying to graduate engineering programs, what you need to know is a free downloadable guide that can guide you through a process you’ve never been through before. It’s not the same as applying to college. Download your complimentary copy.
Our guests today are Dr. Patrick Reed and Professor Robert Neuman. Dr. Reed is the director of Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management program or the MEM. He’s joined today by Professor Robert Newman, Executive Director and Senior Lecturer in Engineering Management at Cornell University.
Hello, Dr. Reed and Professor Newman. Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:37]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Good afternoon.
I’m delighted to speak with you both. Let’s start with how I normally like to start a podcast. Dr. Reed, what is the Engineering Management program at Cornell University? Can you provide an overview of, first of all, the on-campus program? [1:43]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Yeah, so the first thing is, just to clarify, what type of degree it is. It’s our master’s of engineering, so it’s a professional degree. Within this, it’s in the College of Engineering, and Engineering Management itself is a program where we are bringing folks that typically have engineering or STEM training, and then they want to continue in a technology-driven environment while simultaneously training them into the skill sets that links them into business and putting them into a trajectory where their future career is more focused in transitioning the technologies to market and thinking about management roles. It’s that interface where it’s a nice balance where you get individuals that can be involved all the way down to the technical specifications and design stage of technology, and translating it into its ultimate societal use and marketing, and the more management-driven, and I would say entrepreneurial driven opportunities.
Now, in terms of the on-campus program, can you just go over what people will be studying? ]3:07]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Sure. What folks will be doing when they come to the program – it’s a typical version of the on-campus – is a two-semester program. When they come, they will be taking a mixture of our core courses and then some of our electives. They’ll be taking courses in project management and data analytics, economics and finance, decision making, and leadership seminars. We’ll also want them to get a broader training, so they’ll be taking electives in organizational behavioral. It’s one of those things where it’s not just enough to have the technology or the idea or the design. You have to put that within the institution and market context that you want. Then one of the defining traits of our program is that it’s open to nine specialization credits and a lot of that is taken across colleges can be within engineering, it could be within the business school, or even more broadly.
With that, our popular tracks, consulting analytics leadership, we have real estate and construction management, sustainability and renewable energy, entrepreneurship. Robert can correct me, but I think one of our most popular tracks is the build your own track, or students come in and they see the flavors of all the different coursework that’s available and they tailor to their own interests. It’s pretty flexible in that regard, but yeah, that gives you a synopsis. That’s typically done in one academic year. We do have the option for students who want to maybe do an internship and they have a little more flexibility. There can be a three-semester option for the on-campus folks.
Now, Professor Newman, can you answer the same question about the online program? Provide an overview. How is the online program structured? [5:05]Professor Robert Newman:
Sure. Thank you very much. The online program really allows professionals who are currently in the workplace to come and get the same degree but while remaining in their job and to continue to work full-time. As a part-time program, students will take either one or two courses each semester. This allows them to finish the program in as short as four semesters, or they can take a longer period of time if that suits their workload better. Except for two one-week-long, summer intensives that we hold each June, the classes are done completely remotely. They’re scheduled in accordance with our normal academic calendar, so the start date of the classes is the same as the start date with the on-campus students, and the end dates are the same as the end dates with the on-campus students.
Very much the same classes for the most part, although there are some specialty classes that we have for the online students as well. Then there’s a variety of levels and synchronicity versus coordination of schedules depending on the type of class. Some classes, the students who are online can do most of the work on their own schedule. Other classes, especially classes that require coordination with students for activities such as a class in negotiations, for instance, they would have to schedule coordinates with their classmates.
Are there electives or what percentage of courses are elective in each of the programs? Dr. Reed, do you want to start with that one? [6:35]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Yeah, so for ours, we have a 32-credit on-campus degree, and nine of those credits are specialization or optional, and so there’s a degree of flexibility there. Then even within, for example, organizational and behavioral, we have multiple options that are available to the students. If they want to take different flavors of that, for example, emphasizing contemporary issues that they currently face or if they want a more entrepreneurship focus, we have different options there. In that regard, definitely nine credits available, and then beyond that, there’s some freedom in some of the requirements.
Professor Robert Newman:
Yeah, and I would add to that one of the things that many of our students say is that’s one of the things that attracts them to Cornell is their ability to pick. Almost a third of their program, they get to design based on their area of interest and the things they want to learn.
https://youtu.be/szi6XhkBwJsNow, is the degree that participants earn in both programs the same? Do they both get a master’s in engineering management, or is there an asterisk after the diploma for the online program? [7:48]Professor Robert Newman:
Yeah, so they’re both exactly the same. From the student view, it’s the same as a master’s in engineering or degree in engineering management. The course listings on the transcripts will look the same and the diploma is the same.
Are you seeing any difference in terms of… Well, I guess one group is more for experienced people and the online program is more of an early career program. Is that correct or not so correct? [8:12]Professor Robert Newman:
That is correct. The on-campus program usually is people in their fifth year of academia or people who have maybe two or three years of work experience, and then they’re coming back to academia to get their master’s degree. Whereas the online course is for students that must have at least two years experience, but right now, we’re averaging about eight years experience in our distance learning program.
Wow, really? That’s even more than typically in an MBA program. [8:51]Professor Robert Newman:
Yes, it is.
Dr. Patrick Reed:
That’s been attractive for the interactions between our program and the Cornell MBA program. They find that a lot of our students, even the on-campus students, are coming with some nice industrial experience and perspectives, so it’s been positive, and we’ve been fortunate for how the distance learning program… I mean, we’re new. We launched in 2020.
Great time to launch a new program. [9:23]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Learning by doing and talking about entrepreneurial. Five years before that were a lot of plans and a lot of studio time, but it’s been great. Right now, we have across a couple cohorts, and I think Robert can correct me, but we have 55 professionals at different stages of working their way through while simultaneously giving them a sense of cohort and connectedness. That’s neat because you have people in different companies, in different parts of the country that are connecting in ways through these courses and interactions that wouldn’t be available otherwise. In many ways, I’d say from the faculty perspective, there’s been a lot of fun and benefits from bringing in people with so much diversity of backgrounds and experience.
Do the programs ever meet? Participants, I mean. [10:16]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Off in terms of the flexibility for the DEL and the professional constraints, that generally the cohorts aren’t together at this stage because of the logistics would be very difficult, and our on-campus cohorts are quite a bit larger, and so the logistics of that coordination is a bit more challenging.
How many people are in each of the programs? [10:41]Dr. Patrick Reed:
I’m correct, Robert? I think we have 55 that are in process in our distance learning, and then we have something on the order of over 100 in our on-campus degree program ranging from folks that may be staying an extra semester and some of those that are in the more traditional nine-month, two-semester track.
What are the most significant differences between the masters in engineering management and the MBA or even an executive MBA? Because it sounds like the average age group has eight years of experience, you’re almost approaching the executive MBA area marketplace. [11:03]Dr. Patrick Reed:
I’ll take a stab at this and then I’ll pass to Robert because you have an engineer and you have someone with an MBA, an executive experience. I would say from my perspective, you don’t come to get a master’s of engineering management to leave engineering. The tagline is you’re coming to lead it, and so you’re tied to the technology, you’re tied to the technical fundamentals of the design or the technology, the architecture of what’s being invented while simultaneously transitioning that into the market context. The way that I view this is depending on the track, and that they’re not necessarily mutually exclusive, and we can talk about that, but the master’s of engineering management is putting somebody, potentially, you could think of them at that CTO track or somebody who’s going to be entrepreneurial, but they’re in on the design. They’re not just marketing something that’s technical that they’re trusting somebody else. They can get into the details, the technical specs, the functionality, the scoping, and I think that’s a little bit different. I’ll pass to Robert. It’s always interesting to hear what your colleagues have to say.
Professor Robert Newman:
Yeah, I think that’s spot on, Pat. One way I might phrase it is that the people who come from a master’s in engineering management degree, they love what they do, they are technical experts in some engineering or computer science field, and they don’t want to stop doing that. They just want to be much more skilled at leading that.
That’s a good distinction. Both of you, thank you. Let’s go into applying to and getting into the MEM, either the online or the on-campus one. What are the academic requirements to gain admission? [13:01]Dr. Patrick Reed:
I’ll speak from director level. Our typical candidate is going to have an engineering degree or a quantitative STEM driven physics, computer science, and sometimes, that can be mathematics or applied physics or things like that, but it would be a rare exception that we wouldn’t bring someone in as STEM. Then even within those fields, a big part of our current program is we’ve made a significant move. I think people can feel the pressures of how technology is changing on a day-by-day basis, and we want to set a foundation for our students, and so that means they need to understand probability, statistics, and the emerging underlying mathematics of analytics, which is changing day by day. We put a big emphasis not just on the engineering or STEM degree, but also making sure that they have the underlying mathematical qualifications to be able to handle some of the analytics training that we’ll have in the program. I’ll pass to Robert in terms of if you want to add to any differences for our distance learning.
Professor Robert Newman:
No, I don’t think I have anything to add to that.
What if somebody comes from a non-engineering background? Can they take the coursework and would you consider that and then if they showed aptitude in the coursework, or do you really want somebody with a STEM degree? [14:29]Dr. Patrick Reed:
What do I mean by STEM degree and what is it I’m specifically interested in… The calc series, so you’re going to have to… I’m looking in detail at whether or not somebody has gone all the way through multivariate calculus, has some linear algebra in their background. There’s different levels of mechanics that we don’t necessarily require that is in engineering degrees, but might be implied if they took electives in the college of engineering. Then probability and statistics are something that we don’t really compromise so much on, but that doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t allow somebody to take that in the background. I think it’s mathematics predominantly.
It is nice to see some physics, or if they’re more on the software side, on the computer science side of interest, that they have the underlying fundamentals there in terms of software engineering, some of the coding classes, and some of the background and theoretical basis for software development. There are examples where we’ve had exceptional people that had unique backgrounds and stories, and they did the work. They worked with us and asked what were the background in terms of the math and or physics or statistics that we thought would fill a gap for them, but to be completely honest, that’s relatively rare.
https://youtu.be/SQfpDS4aM3EThank you. No, I would assume that it is rare because it’s also very demanding, but I noticed in preparing for the call in terms of academic requirements, that the GRE is optional for the online program and not even mentioned for the on-campus program. When can a solid GRE score help to you? [16:08]Dr. Patrick Reed:
I do a lot of the initial screening of applications, and then work with Robert and our whole program to really vet are candidates, but to be honest, I don’t use the GRE as a preliminary screening device, and I do not allow it to be a negative, so the way that I view it is it’s supplemental information if somebody provides it. It provides me with maybe a little bit of extra information in terms of the quantitative or the verbal elements or some aspects, but I can say where they’re spending their time, I would spend a lot more time on the statement than I would on an optional GRE.
It’s great advice. Experientially, what do you like to see from candidates or in candidates’ backgrounds? [17:08]Professor Robert Newman:
Aside from the two years minimum work experience, which is a requirement for all the online applicants, we really look for candidates who have a few things. One is those who want to develop both their technical expertise but also their human skills or their soft skills, and their ability to be more effective leaders of engineering teams and engineering projects. We look for people who have a really clear understanding of why they want to come get the MEM degree, and people who exhibit the potential to grow and to grow personally, and that they’re looking for personal development over the course of this program, not just to simply add a degree to their resume.
Dr. Reed, do you want to add anything to that? [17:59]Dr. Patrick Reed:
I really like that last point, I think. This is a unique opportunity, you’re coming to a program. Whether it’s distance, you’re still in the Cornell family and resources, and it’s a unique time, and so I think it’s really important to make it more than just resume decoration. This is an opportunity to really think about what you want to attain, what your path is. I think we can distinguish the types of candidates that want to just come because the name is Cornell versus those candidates that want to come because they’re on a personal journey and in whatever their story is for their professional development or their aspirations. Yeah, we’re really looking for that latter. That’s part of our role is to help them fulfill that.
So, you’re looking more for a purposeful approach, the application process? [18:48]Dr. Patrick Reed:
The purposeful, right. That’s why I emphasize this statement. People may be surprised, but I really do read every line of every one of these, and it’s an amazing privilege actually to be able to meet digitally so many different people and have so many stories, but if you’re the person writing it, you have to realize that you have somebody that’s reading potentially hundreds of these, and so there are going to be things that are going to stand out, and it’s going to be your personal narrative, your aspirations why you’re there. It’s more than just academics, too. It’s not just that, “Oh, I got straight As, and therefore I qualify.” In many cases, if we have a compelling lived experience that’s narrated through a statement, that will more than compensate for somebody not having a straight A GPA.
That’s a wonderful answer. Thank you. Professor Newman, do you have anything to add? [19:49]Professor Robert Newman:
The only other thing that I might look for in candidates, other than making sure they understand what’s the purpose for them coming and how’s their world going to change as they get this degree is make sure that they have a clear understanding of the coursework and what they’re walking into. Going from working full-time to trying to get a degree online, it’s a lot of work, and making sure they have a clear understanding and a way to budget their time so that when they sign up for a four credit hour course, they realize, “Okay, this is going to be 12 hours a week for the next 13 weeks,” and that they have a realistic understanding of how that coursework is going to fit in their schedule as well as how it’s going to help develop and grow them professionally to reach their goals.
Dr. Patrick Reed:
Just to jump on that briefly, this is something I do want to maybe put a few underlines under is we’re mandated by the State of New York to have a certain number of our class hours spent per hour in class, and so obviously, we take that seriously, and sometimes that can surprise some applicants both on campus, and in particular, those that are in a working environment and for the distance. I would say when applicants come from the first conversations, it’s good to clarify with us where you’re at and what the actual expectations are. It’s not something we arbitrarily choose. This is something that’s mandated, and then we carefully track.
Yeah, I think for most part-time programs, that’s something that they really have to understand, and also they need their employer’s support if they’re working full-time, they might need their family’s support if they have families, so that is critical. Now, we’ve touched on the statement of purpose. Can you describe the application process for each of the programs? I noticed there’s a statement of purpose requirement and a technical writing sample requirement for both programs, which is a little bit unusual. Last question was, can you go into the distinction between the statement of purpose and the technical writing sample? There’s a lot in that one question. I probably should have broken it up. [21:28]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Yeah, no, I’ll take it. The statement of purpose is landing us into your narrative. Who are you? What is the journey that you’ve been on? What are the aspirations and experiences that have shaped where you’re at? Then how do you connect to our program? We’re looking for a degree of maturity there. That’s somebody that’s taking ownership in this experience. It’s not, “Oh, I’m going to go to Cornell and they’re going to get me a job.” No, you’re going to get you a job through completing your narrative and your path professionally. Now, when we move to the example of professional writing, that’s a different voice and it’s a very different skill. It’s telling in terms of the professional voice and the narrative of presenting technical information. I find that also quite helpful to distinguish candidates where you can see in context whether that’s on-campus or distance, how they’re communicating and conveying information, which is obviously, it’s not about necessarily them. That’s about the clarity of their communication, and in many ways, the ability of our program to augment that ability to communicate.
Robert, do you want to add it all to that? [23:26]Professor Robert Newman:
He covered it really well.
Now, on the site, you encourage applicants to be creative, and the site actually says, quote, “We want to learn more about you in a fun, engaging way,” close quote. Now, I have read thousands of statements of purpose in the last 20 plus years, so I can understand why you would rather read fun, engaging statements of purpose, but when does fun and creativity demonstrate poor judgment or become weird, forced or just inauthentic? Not helpful. [23:31]Dr. Patrick Reed:
In the modern age of AI supported writing, if we start to see similar patterns in your pros that it may in fact be augmented and not telling your story, I’d say that’s a new issue that’s coming in. I think in terms of that boundary, first of all, it’s fine to not overshare, and if you do want to share, that’s fine, but sometimes you read an essay and you come out of the other end of it and you’re not sure how it’s related to grad school. Might have been fun, might have been creative, but it’s not topically relevant, the task at hand. I would say having just read several hundred of these, those are the cases that stand out as not connecting to what we’re doing. This is a collaborative communication. We’re exchanging information. If I don’t leave from that exchange with any more in-depth knowledge of you and how you connect to my program, I might remember your essay, but I’m probably not going to respond positively.
You may not remember it in a positive way either. [25:23]Dr. Patrick Reed:
There’s always interesting examples here or there.
That was a wonderful answer. Thank you very much. Robert, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? [25:33]Professor Robert Newman:
Yeah, I do. Realistically, I want to know something about the applicant that would be different than every other applicant can tell me. I want them to bring enough creativity to their application or to their interview where I have something unique about them that I might remember and something that sets them apart because realistically, we have hundreds and hundreds of applicants and most of them have very similar backgrounds, so bringing something fun, something different, something unique about yourself helps to make it personalized as long as you don’t take it too far and as long as you still put it in the context of why you’re applying for this program and why this program is a good fit for you.
Dr. Patrick Reed:
There is one thing I do want to tie to the degree though, and it’s something that I think we cover in a lot of our classes, is that creativity is the defining trait that separates a lot of folks and success. The ability to do the quantitative work is not necessarily unique, but it’s what you do with that quantitative work that’s going to be the distinguishing factor, and so beginning with that creativity and how one presents oneself, you start to get an indication because the reality is we have an incredibly talented pool, and that pool is only beginning, more competitive, and larger. To be honest, most people have pretty incredible quantitative skill sets. What distinguishes people is what they’re going to do with it.
It seems to me like the top engineers have to be on one hand analytical, but it’s the creativity that they bring to that analysis and that numerical and quantitative ability that distinguishes the great engineers from the average engineers. Is that correct? [27:23]Dr. Patrick Reed:
Yeah, I think one of the things is doing what’s already been done well is not trivial. Recognizing what needs to be done and hasn’t been done, and how one would approach it is that’s where you start to get into new spaces, new impacts, translating your ideas into new markets. That’s where we’re operating is we want those individuals that aren’t following through with tried and true methods. We want the folks that are creating what is going to be needed, and that vision, and that creativity, both in the quantitative side, and we shouldn’t just overemphasize. The bias in engineering is doing quantitative work and thinking that that’s thinking. The organizational behavioral elements relating the managerial elements, you can have a great idea, but if you don’t team build and bring that out in terms of the actual context that is going to take it to market, then the idea might as well not exist.
Thank you for that answer. Is an interview required of all admitted applicants? If not, who is invited to interview? [28:57]Professor Robert Newman:
That’s a great question. Basically, we like to interview as many applicants as feasible. The structure and system is a little different for online students than it is for on-campus students. With the on-campus students, we get flooded with applications of students that we’ve never talked to, and so in that case, we’re going to interview almost all of those. There may be a few very, very top candidates or a few candidates who have a Cornell engineering undergraduate degree who we may admit without an interview, but for the most part, the on-campus student applicants are going to get an interview if they’re in contention for a position.
With the online program, it’s a little different in that without any exceptions that I know of, by the time somebody applies to the online program, they’ve already spoken to faculty, they’ve already spoken to staff, and we already have somewhat of a relationship and an understanding of who they are and why they’re coming here, so there’s no usually a reason to schedule a separate interview after the fact because we’ve already gotten to know them a little bit through information sessions and then one-on-one questions and answers. That just doesn’t happen with the on-campus cohort, but they do happen ahead of time with the online students.
The two questions that have occurred to me as you have been speaking: You said how many people are in the program, but how many applications do you receive in an academic cycle? [30:26]
Dr. Patrick Reed:
That’s been growing, which is nothing I’m necessarily complaining about at all. This year, we have for on-campus, and I think, distance learning combined approaching about 600. Last year, we were over 700. When I started my position as director in 2015, we were more in the 180 applications. As our program has evolved, our curriculum has evolved, and I think the awareness of technology and management meets engineering has evolved. There’s been a bit of an explosion. To give you some direct transparent numbers, we’re looking at applications, particularly, we’ll take the on-campus as the example, there’s more than 500. Of those, we are looking at probably interviewing no more than 140 individuals. The interview doesn’t mean that we’re at the final decision. That’s the last part of the evaluation.
Especially for the online program, but for both of them, is there an international component to the student body? [31:48]Professor Robert Newman:
Yeah, so there definitely is. With the online program, we’re really focused. At this point, we’re still focused on North America just for the convenience of time zone, although we may expand that in the future. With the on-campus cohort, we have probably about 70% of our students come from countries outside of the United States.
That’s enormous. Okay, great. Now, moving forward in this journey, what are typical positions that grads of the MEM programs go into? [32:07]Professor Robert Newman:
Sure. It would almost be easier to tell you what positions they don’t go into, but I can take a stab at this because you have to understand that the students coming in, first of all, have a broad range of experience and industries and undergraduate work, so everything from computer science to biomedical engineering to aerospace engineering to civil engineering to mechanical engineering and electrical engineering. There’s a wide range of skill sets coming in, and there’s a wide range of interests, not only in different industries but also different job types. Many will go into engineering roles, others will go into data analytics, some will go into consulting. Both product management and project management are extremely popular with our graduates. Some come because they have an entrepreneurial mindset and they’re looking to either start businesses or grow businesses.
I noticed online that at Cornell, and certainly at other universities, there’s an option for an MS/MBA. That’s obviously different from the MEM, and it probably takes about three years to complete, but for whom is that option better for? [33:21]Professor Robert Newman:
I think that’s a really good option for top students. Absolute top students. it is an extremely competitive program to get into, but people who are looking to be entrepreneurs or looking to actually run businesses, so engineers and technical people who have a mindset that they want to be moving up to the C-suite at some point while staying in very tech products or tech services in engineering related fields. The program is sequential, so it’s not in parallel. You’d still come and get your MEM degree first, and then in your last semester of the MEM degree, you would apply to the Johnson School for the MBA portion of the combined program.
Now, what is a common mistake that you see applicants make in their application? We’ve discussed a couple of them. I don’t know if this is going to be repetitive, actually, but just again, this is something I like to ask because it’s, I think, as instructive sometimes to know what people shouldn’t do and what they should do. What would you say is a common mistake that you see? [34:21]Dr. Patrick Reed:
One is to complete the application as requested. That’s a basic but surprisingly common issue. I think one of the things that people may… They may see it as a task and not a story. It makes sense for it to be an integrated story that includes your transcript because you’re taking classes and a degree, and you had aspirations. I assume you would invest in that. You’re professional. It makes no sense. Every so often, you’ll see folks will have not gone to as much depth on the professional experience they actually have, and so I would limit your opportunity costs. If you have a unique experience, I would share that. Then I think too few students necessarily realize that we do value things that go beyond just academics. The example is if you have a unique skillset, like you’re a concert pianist, but that’s not related to your engineering management, it is related actually, so we should know about that because it speaks volumes about your dedication and your breadth. Yeah, I would say don’t sell yourself short and make sure that the story is broad in all of the features that you need us to know about.
Professor Robert Newman:
I would add to that, when it gets to the level of an interview, there’s really two repeated common mistakes that I see. That is, applicants either, when they’re asked a question, quickly diverting to telling me what they want me to hear about them. They have a preconceived storyline they want to make sure they get across during their interview instead of answering the question that was asked. The other similar mistake they may make is some applicants will provide an answer that they believe the interviewer wants to hear instead of just answering the question as asked. One of the things we look for, can you actually listen to my question and answer the question as opposed to telling me some things that you think are really important for me to hear about your background?
Dr. Patrick Reed:
Be exceptional, but don’t tell us that you are exceptional.
That’s a great one. [37:20]Professor Robert Newman:
I like that, Pat.
Very succinct, short, sweet, and to the point. It’s a great one. Okay. I’m great. Really, I am. What question would you have liked me to ask that I haven’t asked, or what question would you like to answer that I didn’t ask? [37:27]Dr. Patrick Reed:
For me, I think one of the things is where do we see things evolving, especially at the interface of engineering, tech, and business over even the next five years?
Dr. Patrick Reed:
I think we’re in a stage now where if somebody went back to 2019 and tried to predict 2020 through 2023, they’d probably do a pretty poor job. That’s not all… We can fixate on the negative sides of that, but there’s also the positive sides of that in terms of the explosive growth. AI is largely gone common and viral. People are playing with it in their every day and in their networks, and that’s not slowing down. We’re at the beginning phases of this, and there’s levels of communication at the humanity scale that hasn’t existed before and are accelerating any breakthroughs in technology.
To get to the point here is that I think training for a future where creativity, a willingness to embrace the fact that the future’s going to have some ambiguities and some significant uncertainties, to stop pretending like we’re going to respond to what will be, and be a little more careful with being ready just in case, and the way that we’re handling our technologies, the way we’re handling our supply chains, the way that we’re having an impact, at the end of the day, if we’re really thinking about the impact of technology, the impact of decisions, the impact of engineering on society, there are a lot of issues to consider there. I think we need to make sure that as we’re moving forward, that we can distinguish actual action that is making the world a better place from the appearance of action. I think part of that is the breadth of training and the depth of training. I think that’s something that we discuss a lot in our program is bringing people to the stage where it’s not the appearance of action. You’re actually making a translatable impact.
It sounds to me like that’s your niche. [39:57]Dr. Patrick Reed:
We hope so.
Professor Newman, did you have a question that you’d like to respond to that I didn’t ask? [40:00]Professor Robert Newman:
Sure. Absolutely. I guess a question that I would like you to ask that you may not have is what do our students and what do our graduates say as to why they chose Cornell as a MEM program from Cornell? What we see is they give three or four reasons over and over again. One is the strong mix of extremely technically rigorous skill development alongside with human soft skill development needed for leadership. Another one is the level of personal support from faculty to students is really appreciated by our alumni and our students. Probably the third one-
Okay, we have a snowstorm going on and it’s affecting the internet here, but the third reason is absolutely the flexibility of the program and the ability to pick nine credits of electives as well as one of your organizational behavior electives is really appreciated. Then the fourth one would be the strength and support that they get from the alumni network. We have the Cornell Alumni Network is huge, and even with the MEM program itself, it’s been going on for well over 30 years on campus. Cornell alumni like to help Cornell students and future alumni. Those are the four reasons why people tell me over and over that they came to Cornell for a master’s in engineering management.
That’s a wonderful way to end.Dr. Reed and Professor Newman, thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve enjoyed learning more about Cornell’s master’s in engineering management and its evolution since the last time we spoke. Dr. Reed, where can listeners and interested applicants learn more about it? [42:08]Dr. Patrick Reed:
You can go to our website www.engmanagement.cornell.edu or if you just want to do Google Cornell Engineering Management, you’re going to find us.
Relevant Links: Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management On Campus * Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management Online * Applying to Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know* – free guide
Related Shows:* CMU Tepper’s MS in Business Analytics: All You Need to Know [Episode 510] * The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500] * How to Get Accepted to Graduate Engineering Programs [Episode 486] * How This Student Got Accepted to MIT’s Engineering Program and Landed a Job at Apple [Episode 460] * How This Student Got Accepted to MIT’s Engineering Program and Landed a Job at Apple [Episode 460] * Stride Funding: Where Your Education is an Investment and not a Debt [Episode 495]
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Dr. Valerie Wherley, Accepted consultant and past Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, and former Director of Pre-Health Advisement and Director of the Pre-Health Postbac Certificate Program at Sacred Heart University, speaks in depth about the path to becoming a physician assistant. [Show Summary]Healthcare is a field that is growing, but what areas are really booming? According to US News citing Bureau of Labor Statics’ projections, between 2021 and 2031 “an estimated 38,400 jobs should open up” for physician assistants. Sound good? Let’s learn more about becoming a physician assistant.
Interview with Dr. Valerie Wherley, Accepted consultant. Dr. Wherley earned her BS and MS at the University of Maine in kinesiology and her PhD in higher education administration from the University of Connecticut. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 515th episode of AdmissionsStraight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. This interview is all about getting accepted to PA school and giving you tips on how you can do it. In addition to listening to today’s interview, I invite you to download Accepted’s free guide, 10 Tips For Acceptance to a Physician Assistant Program. Grab your free guide for advice on selecting the best PA programs for you, writing your personal statement, interviewing effectively and simply presenting the best application you possibly can.
Over the last 20 years, she has served as the Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, director of pre-health post-bacc certificate program at Sacred Heart University, and the director of the pre-health advisement also at Sacred Heart University. In those roles and before joining Accepted earlier this year, she advised thousands of students in the following pre-health tracks: pre-med, pre-PA, pre-vet, pre-dental, pre-pharmacy, pre-PT, pre-OT, pre-accelerated nursing and pre-optometry, as well as applicants to master’s programs in exercise science, biomedical sciences, occupational therapy, speech language pathology, athletic training, public health, and applied nutrition. That’s her breadth. Right now, we’re going to go in depth and we’re going to focus on physician assistant admissions.
Dr. Wherley, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:32]Thank you for having me.
What do physician assistants do? [2:36]Sure. Great question. So a physician assistant or PA, which I may use during this podcast is a licensed medical professional, first and foremost, who holds an advanced degree beyond their undergrad, which is typically a master’s degree, and they’re licensed to provide direct patient care. So if you’ve ever received care from a PA, it’s important to know they are fully qualified and fully trained, and their scope of practice really encompasses quite a bit. And so their scope of practice starts with the ability to take medical histories, to conduct physical exams, to diagnose and treat illnesses.
They can also develop treatment plans and order and interpret tests. They can prescribe medication, which sometimes people may or may not know. They can counsel on preventative care, they can perform certain procedures that’s very specific. They can assist in surgeries. They are not the primary care provider in surgeries, but they can assist. They can make rounds in hospitals and nursing homes, and they can also do clinical research. So while that is a long list of their scope of practice, I’m sure it’s not exhaustive, but PAs are certainly a team player and a welcome provider on a healthcare team.
What are some of the restrictions on what they can do? [4:20]Well, in most states, PAs do not operate or practice, and by I say operate, I mean independently practice. PAs are restricted to be practicing under the supervision of a physician, an MD typically, and again, that’s in most states. And one of my specific things that I noted is they can assist in surgery. So you will not find PAs being the primary care provider in performing surgery again, independently.
What are some of the other differences in actual responsibilities and required education between let’s say a physician assistant and a physician? [4:58]So I covered the responsibilities of a PA, and I’ll talk about education and then I’ll go into a very specific thing about the PA title if I can, because that’s very important to the profession, and I want to make sure I recognize that very clearly. So while MDs and DOs can work independently, the required education for MDs and DOs is of course, they will complete an undergraduate degree, which will take somewhere between three and four years, depending on if they’re an accelerated undergraduate curriculum. And then they’ll go to medical school for an additional four years, and then they will further go into a residency program for somewhere between three to seven years. So you can add up all of those years of education and also the finances and the financial support that it would take to get through all of those years of education. PA school is very different.
So potential PA students can think about going to their undergraduate degree for, again, three to four years. And then a PA degree is a master’s program that usually is completed in somewhere between 24 and 27 months and at the end of a PA program, they sit for their licensing degree and then they are ready to go to work. So depending on a student’s thoughts about how quickly they want to become clinically relevant and able to get into the workforce, what is their financial support and how many years do they want to be in their education, PA school or MD school could be the path for them. Now, I do want to make a note about the title of physician assistant. So in 2021, the governing body did vote and say, we want to officially change the title from “physician assistant” to “physician associate.” So the official title of this clinical practitioner is “physician associate”. So the moniker is still PA, right?
And the reason for that was they wanted to be very clear that these healthcare practitioners don’t simply assist physicians.
They’re associates, they’re colleagues. [7:35]Right. So they are associates, they are colleagues, they are a fully vetted member of the healthcare team. Now, further in the research, when you look at some of these PA websites, they do say, and I quote, “PAs should continue to use physician assistant as their legal title because changing the entire moniker over to physician associate will take time.” So in clinical practice, you will still see them referring to themselves as physicians assistants.
When did the change take place? [8:05]I believe it was May of 2021.
Yeah, when the vote happened. But of course, to see it in fully vetted practice is just going to take time.
Another, I think path that physician associates or assistants are sometimes compared with would be nurse practitioner. [8:16]Correct.
What are some of the differences there? I think the difference between nurse and PAs is much clearer, but what about a nurse practitioner? I mean, they can see patients. [8:30]True. So it’s also a very good question. So I’ll go back to the training of a PA and I’ll get a little bit more specific about the training of PAs. So again, PAs will complete a master’s degree and they will complete 2000 hours of clinical training. And that 2000 hours is standard for the over 300 accredited PA programs that exist.
And that’s part of their training, that 2000 hours is part of the program or training as a prior to? [9:09]Nope, as part of their clinical training. So PA programs will have a didactic component, and that’s the classroom work. And then they will have a clinical component. And that clinical component is 2000 hours of training.
That’s roughly a year. [9:26]Yeah, correct. So their 2000 hours of clinical training has a wide breadth of clinical rotations. And I am going to read these because I don’t have them memorized, but their clinical training will be in family medicine, internal medicine, general surgery, pediatrics, OB-GYN, emergency medicine and psychiatry. So they get training and exposure in all of those clinical areas. So we’ll note that. I’ll move over to nurse practitioners. So nurse practitioners must complete a master’s degree or a doctoral degree depending on their program. And they’re specifically trained in the advanced practice of nursing, which I’ll talk about a little bit more. Students in NP school complete 1000 hours of supervised clinical training.
That’s compared to the 2000 hours for PA, and they’re trained in a chosen health population focus area. So this differs from the clinical hours that I just talked about in PA school. So their focus area tends to be in these domains, family, adult or gerontology, neonatal, pediatrics, women’s health, psychiatry or mental health. So their concentration of clinical work tends to be a little bit more focused. And the PA clinical hours, as you can see, really mirrors medical clinical rotations.
It seems like the nurse practitioner’s focus is more as you put it on different communities of patients. [11:04]True.
And the PA is more like medical treatment options or systems. [11:12]Absolutely. Now two more notes about this. In 22 states, nurse practitioners have approved “full” practice. I put “full” in quotes and full practice for NPs in those states allows nurse practitioners to prescribe, diagnose, and treat patients without physician oversight. So if you are a student who lives in one of those 22 states and you are looking to practice clinically and autonomously without going to medical school and you’re looking for a different path, nurse practitioner might be the way you want to go because you have full autonomy to prescribe, diagnose and treat patients. The other thing PA schools or a PA training allows students to do, and PA schools really have a lot of pride in this is something called lateral mobility. Lateral mobility in the PA profession means that students have the ability to change their specialty area at different points in their career.
So once a student gets out of their PA program and they’re trained as a generalist, then once they start working, they can subspecialize as a surgical PA and they can work as a surgical PA for a period of time. That’s sort of on the job training. And then if they decide that they want to move laterally in the PA field, then they could change jobs and subspecialize as a pediatric PA. So that lateral mobility for some students is very appealing because they think, Hey, I might want to change my specialty in 10 years or in 15 years. And as we know in the world of medicine, once you hang your hat on a specialty area, that’s your work.
https://youtu.be/0xyh6VUc9o0Are there different types of physician assistant programs or perhaps a better question will be what are some of the different types of physician assistant programs, associate programs, I should say? [13:19]This is a really good question because oftentimes I think that some PA students just think I’m going to apply to all PA schools because they all are created equal. So right now, prospective PA students can choose from over 300 accredited PA programs that are in the United States, and most of these programs take between 24 and 27 months. But there are some differences between these programs that I would just like to highlight. There are 11 PA programs in the country that are either online or hybrid. So the didactic component would be online or have a combination between online and then come to campus at some points. And then the clinical component, of course would be in person. So that’s one option to consider depending on who you are and what your learning style is like.
Some schools use traditional lecture lab models for their didactic component and other schools use case-based learning. So just lots and lots of case studies to bring this content alive and to enlighten students instead of traditional lectures. So if you are more a case-based learning style student, you want to look for a program that uses those case-based learning models. Some schools offer interprofessional learning with other healthcare students on the premises. So PA students go into the cadaver lab with the pre-med students and with the nursing students and offer lots of this interprofessional learning, which I personally think is quite nice.
I think the University of Iowa does that, doesn’t it? [15:08]Yeah, potentially. So I think it’s great to have a PA student right next to a medical student, right next to a nursing student, potentially right next to a dental student all looking at the same cadaver and really trying to figure things out. Now, while some PA schools and curriculum don’t offer clinical exposure until year two, there are some programs out there that offer early clinical exposure, which again, I think brings the didactic curriculum to life. And so I would suggest look for those programs out there that offer early clinical exposure. And then my last point would be there’s a difference between programs out there that are connected with a large teaching hospital or that are more community-based medicine, and that would offer students different exposure to access to procedures or things like emergency medicine or rural medicine. So it’s really what are you looking for in your PA school curriculum.
What should they be looking for? [16:09]I think it depends on their vision of what kind of practitioner they want to become. So if they’re looking for a really urban sort of based environment and they think that they might want to work in surgery or critical care or emergency based medicine, they might want to look to be connected with a large teaching hospital that would give them exposure to a wide variety of patients. And if they’re really looking for a more rural setting and providing care to patients who may not get care otherwise, they would be looking for a community-based medicine program.
What would be some other things that they should be considering? [17:15]I think the other things that students should consider would be what I talk to students about, whether they’re PA students or pre-med students or pre-dental students and those are things like the mission statement of the school. Does it resonate with you? School fit, size of the school, size of the cohort that you might be joining, the location of the school. Certainly going to an open house of the school and hearing the dean speak, hear other students speak, taking a tour of the campus and a tour of the facility to see if you could envision yourself being there and being part of the community and feeling like it’s a good overall fit for you.
What should PA applicants have in their academic background before they apply? We’ll get to the experiential qualifications in a second. [17:15]Yes. Academically, there tends to be a general list of prerequisites that PA students should be aware of. However, schools vary school by school in terms of specific recommendations. So it’s always suggested that you’re checking with the school’s website to make sure you’re covering your prerequisites very specifically. But in general, pre-PA students need to take anatomy and physiology, typically a full year. Biology and chemistry, usually organic chemistry and then a few upper level classes like biochemistry and microbiology are usually recommended. English composition and or writing, usually two semesters are necessary on your transcript. One or two semesters of psychology, statistics or biostatistics. And then two specific courses I’m seeing required by more PA schools are genetics and medical terminology.
What about experientially? Getting into a PA program is not easy. [19:28]So experientially is the point that really differentiates my pre-PA applicants, usually from my med school applicants. And the reason why is the PA curriculum is abbreviated. So it is a master’s program and it is completed in 27 months. And what PA schools are expecting is that when students walk in the door, they have had a large number of patient care hours and healthcare experience, which has provided a foundation of knowledge that will prepare them for this rigorous PA school curriculum. So having said that, a data point that I found said the average number of direct patient contact hours PA matriculates had on their application last year was 3000.
That’s a year and a half of full-time work. [20:38]Correct. Right. So some undergrads are able to balance being an undergrad student and also acquiring these direct patient care hours. More often than not, pre-PA students require a gap year to get this work done. So you graduate, you take a gap year, and you get your direct patient care experience, and then you’re applying to PA school. So actually the average age of students who are applying to PA school is 26.
I think the average for med school is 24, isn’t it? [21:13]I think so. I think so. And so sometimes students feel like they are falling behind because they still have to acquire this direct patient care experience. But the truth is everybody is in the same situation where they’re out there just working and gaining this valuable experience. So direct patient care is anytime a student is working and providing direct patient contact with somebody in need. So students often gain this experience by working as a paramedic, an EMT, an athletic trainer, a CNA, a medical assistant who’s really providing care and not doing clerical work.
Some RNs will work as an RN and then apply to medical PA school. So all of their hours working as an RN count as direct patient care. So there’s a fairly long list of sort of what, quote unquote, ‘counts’ as direct patients.
What about scribe? [22:25]Medical scribing tends to be this very gray area. It seems like maybe over 50% of PA schools out there that I am aware of will count scribing as direct patient care and the other 50% do not. But on the CASPA application, so the CASPA application is the official application for PA school, and CASPA stands for Centralized Application Service For Physician Assistant, still Assistant.
There are two different categories among the extracurricular experiences where students are available to add, there is direct patient care where students can chronicle, and there’s also healthcare experience. So healthcare experience is where you have worked in a healthcare environment, but the experience is not directly involving patient care. So if you apply to a school that does not consider medical scribing patient care experience, you’re allowed to put it in this other bucket called healthcare experience. So it will sort of count in a holistic application review.
How many programs do students typically apply to? Or is there a typical? [23:46]I don’t know if there is a typical If there is, I’m not aware of it.
What would you recommend to somebody who’s reasonably competitive? [23:59]I would recommend anywhere between 10 and 15.
https://youtu.be/nDDOBN-l9IwShould PA applicants take the MCAT, the GRE or the new kid on the block, the PA-CAT? [24:09]Yes. Great question. So as I’ve mentioned, there are 300… Oh, I think a little over 300 accredited PA programs. The last that I knew, just a few over 100 do not require the GRE.
Do they not require any test or just not require the GRE? [24:32]They do not require any test. Most do not accept the MCAT.
So there’s usually no reason for PA students to be embarking on the MCAT and less than 20 schools at this point in time require the PA-CAT.
So there is a list of schools out there that are requiring the PA-CAT. I think we are going to see that number grow year to year to year, but right now we’re under 20. But as that PA-CAT, for those of you who might be new to this information, the PA-CAT is a newer standardized test. It was beta tested maybe two years ago. And as we see it become more reliable and more data comes out about its validity, I believe we are going to see more PA schools accepting it as a standardized test and requiring it.
Do you see the PA-CAT and the GRE kind of coexisting where students will be able to choose which one to take, or do you see one ultimately winning out? [25:46]I predict that the PA-CAT will become the new standardized measure and the GRE will become obsolete.
The PA-CAT is based on questions pulled from prerequisite courses required of PA students. So it seems to be more linear in terms of questions that are being asked based on foundational knowledge that students should have, where the GRE seems to be much more broad and not linearly correlated with their foundational content knowledge.
In that regard, I assume that the P-CAT is much more like the MCAT, the PA-CAT rather. [26:37]Correct. Correct. And so I should say, in an effort of full disclosure, I was a part of the PA-CAT development team where I was an anatomy and physiology expert, and I helped write some of the content questions for A&P.
What is a competitive GPA, either number or range for PA programs? [27:05]Sure. So some PA programs just look at cumulative GPA, but in order to answer this question thoroughly, I wanted to say PA programs can look at and evaluate up to four different GPAs overall GPA, a science GPA, a non-science GPA, and then what’s called a BCP GPA, which I will explain.
So an overall GPA is your cumulative GPA and a competitive cumulative GPA for PA school is a 3.6 in that range. And of course there’s always a standard deviation.
Science GPA would be the GPA of every single science class you’ve ever taken as an undergrad. And for PA school, competitive science GPA is about a 3.5, and I’m pulling these GPAs from successful matriculates from last year. Non-science GPA is any class you took as an undergrad, which was not science-based. So your English, your psychology, your sociology, your anthropology, and that competitive GPA is a 3.6. Your BCP GPA, that’s your biology, your chemistry, and your physics. Just those three classes, lecture and lab. And that competitive GPA would be a 3.5.
But no M in there. No math. [28:34]No math.
Does the CASPA application require activity descriptions and/or personal statements? And what are the schools looking for with these materials? [28:42]Sure. So CASPA offers the opportunity to write several different items in terms of activity descriptions, leadership, volunteer, just to name a few. But the big two, as I mentioned in one of my prior answers are healthcare experience and patient care experience. This is really the opportunity for pre-PA students to demonstrate that they have done the work, they’ve had exposure to the field, they understand what it means to be part of a healthcare team. And writing these descriptions very clearly about skills acquired and understanding of the process of your clinical work is very critical. And this could really help your application shine. So again, healthcare experience is paid and unpaid work in a health or health related field, but it is when you are not directly responsible for a patient’s care.
So you could be filling prescriptions, delivering food to patients rooms, transporting patients in a hospital, and you could be doing some record keeping in an office setting. But that is healthcare work. Direct patient care is very different. And so some PA schools will have on their website, we require X number of hours of paid direct patient care, and they’ll be very, very strict about that number. And that will vary based on schools. So this is where you could be directing a course of treatment, taking vitals, working as an EMT, a phlebotomist, a physical therapy aid. It looks very good if you have some type of certification to back up this clinical work.
I guess the main thing the schools are looking for with the descriptions in the primary application is just evidence that you know what you’re getting into, and this is really a commitment… That you’re making this commitment with good reason. [30:56]Absolutely.
Based on your personal experience. [31:11]It’s the exposure to healthcare. It’s the acquisition of new knowledge and new clinical skills. And the other thing is schools want to know that you are coming to PA school because you want to be a PA for the scope of practice of a PA, and that it is not your plan B because you didn’t get into medical school.
It’s so important, and I have counseled students on this before, maybe who didn’t have a positive application cycle for medical school. Well, maybe I’ll just go to PA school and PA admissions committees have been doing this for a long time and they will rake through an application where it is a fallback plan for medical school.
That’s a great warning too. Now, do PA programs have secondary applications as medical schools do? And what is the difference between the CASPA and the primary and the secondaries for PAs? [32:08]Sure. So CASPA, as we’ve talked about, is the primary application. This will be the application where you submit everything from your biographical information, all of your academic transcripts, your activity descriptions, your personal statement, which I think I have to talk about, and your letters of recommendation. And your secondaries, yes, some schools will have secondary essays or secondary questions attached to their specific application. Secondary essay questions, sometimes they’re just called supplementals, can be an extra essay question asked by an individual PA program. Oftentimes there is a question related directly to the school, such as why are you choosing our school? Why are you choosing our PA program? What makes you particularly interested in our curriculum? Why did you apply to our program? You can think of these supplementals or secondary essay questions as a precursor to an in-person interview. It’s a question that they want to hear you answer or see you answer in writing prior to a face-to-face interview. So I’ll pause here and go back to the question about the personal statement.
So CASPA does require a personal statement. At this time, the length of it is 5,000 characters including spaces. So at first you think, oh, I have a lot of room to write. And then when students start writing, they go, oh, I don’t have very much room to write. And the question for the past couple of years has always been, why PA? And it’s short and sweet into the point and it ends up being one of the most difficult questions to answer.
Well, that kind of gets back to your warning a few minutes ago. [34:22]That’s right. So of course some of the general guidelines are this is your opportunity to write in a narrative fashion, not a scientific paper, not your opportunity to rehash your CV. It’s not your opportunity to retell the things that are already in your activity descriptions. And it’s really the opportunity to tell your story how you determined that PA is the right fit for you as a future healthcare practitioner.
I sometimes say regarding med school applicants that the primary application is about your fitness to be a physician and the secondary application is about your fit with a specific program. Would you say that’s true with PA programs as well? [34:57]I think that’s very true. I think that’s very true. I think those secondaries, as I’ve said, and as you indicated, are school specific. So they could be a specific question about the curriculum or about the region or about the institution itself. And they’d really like to hear something specific that has intrigued you. Why are you applying to their program? And they want to know, are you a student that is just applying to 50 programs and you’re hoping something will hit? So you do have to make it very specific.
Are there some generalities that you can give on about PA interviews? [36:00]PA interviews, the feedback that I have heard over time is they have changed during sort of this age of COVID.
And maybe it’s true for other disciplines as well, but pre-COVID PA interviews, my students were telling me I’m not part of an admissions committee, but my students were telling me, were very formal and sort of very intimidating. Through COVID with a lot of the online interviewing formats, my students have found them to be quite conversational with admissions committees members focusing their questions on students’ clinical experiences for sure. And with questions regarding maybe something like describe a patient interaction that was very impactful, certainly questions regarding an ethical situation that maybe was difficult for the student and how he, she, or them handled it. Questions about working together in groups and then asking them to verbalize, what do you know about the PA profession? Do you know about the history? Do you know how it came to be? And why did you choose PA? Why did you choose PA instead of medicine or nursing or any other healthcare member? Why PA for you? So be prepared in your interviews to answer any of those questions.
Great tips. Thank you. What are some of the common mistakes that you see PA applicants making? [36:06]Common mistakes would be either over inflating your roles and responsibilities in a patient care experience or a healthcare experience. And that’s number one. I would say number two, having a personal statement that does not truly answer the question why PA or is not compelling to answer the question why PA or number three, which we have not talked about, is not having any shadowing hours.
So not all schools have a requirement of shadowing, and some schools say there is no requirement to shadow a PA. I, in the work that I’ve done for all of these years, think that shadowing is critically important. I think that you need to at some point in your journey, shadow somebody who is doing the work that you think you want to do in your career. And I also think it’s important to shadow somebody in several different disciplines. So if you think you want to be a PA, I think it would be great to shadow a PA in internal medicine and then shadow an OB-GYN PA if you’re allowed to, and then shadow a surgical PA. Even if it’s just for 10 hours, 10 hours, 10 hours.
So you can see PAs who are doing different types of work in different types of settings. And so you understand lateral mobility like I talked about before. And then you can actually sit with the person that you’re shadowing and ask some questions, do you like what you’re doing? Do you like your scope of practice? What type of patients do you see? That will give you more information about this potential career that you have chosen and then that will give you some data to answer potential interview questions or even to put into your narrative of why PA. And so I think having no shadowing on your application is a real pitfall.
What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [40:23]Gee, Dr. Wherley, is there going to be growth in the PA profession?
Gee, Linda. Yes, there is. So the PA profession is this really wonderful market I highly encourage students to look at because according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, there is going to be tremendous growth for the PA profession. So for students who are looking to get into a healthcare related field and who don’t want to go through all of those years of medical school and don’t want to have that financial burden, want to get into the workforce quickly and want to know that they are employable after having a master’s degree, the PA profession is the right fit because the data says that this profession will increase 28% from 2021 to 2031.
The United States is just going to be looking for more and more PAs.
A physician shortage. [42:50]Right. The physician shortage and the healthcare market is looking for more workers. And with our aging population needing more healthcare, PAs are going to be needed. And so if you are someone who’s listening to this podcast and you’re thinking, I wasn’t really sure what track I might go down, strongly consider PA, physician associate.
Relevant Links:
- Dr. Valerie Wherley Bio
- Contact Dr Valerie Wherley so that she can help you apply
- 10 Tips For Acceptance to a Physician Assistant Program
- PA Application Package
- That PA Girl with Can’t-Miss Advice for Aspiring Physician Assistants
Related shows:
- How To Get Accepted To the University of Iowa’s PA Program [Episode 462]
- All About Duke’s Top-Ranked PA Program [Episode 416]
- An Inside Look at USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry [Episode 414]
- Yale’s Online PA Program: Is an Online Ivy League PA Program Too Good to Be True? [Episode 298]
- Andrea Benedict: Life as a Physician Assistant [Episode 234]
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Shortcuts to Key Insights from this Episode* An overview of both Georgetown’s MBA programs and the MS in Environmental and Sustainability Management or the ESM. * What distinguishes Georgetown’s program in Environment and Sustainability Management from other similar programs. * Where graduates of Georgetown’s MBA program and the MS-ESM program find jobs. * The types of academic backgrounds Georgetown is looking for in applicants to the MBA and MS-ESM programs. * What an interviewee can expect if they’re lucky enough to get an invitation. * A key piece of advice from Shelly Heinrich to all applicants. * A common – but avoidable mistake – seen on resumes.
Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean for MBA and MS-ESM admissions, and Director of Marketing at Georgetown’s McDonough School of Business, discusses everything applicants need to know about getting into Georgetown McDonough’s MBA program. [Show Summary]Are you interested in sustainability? Also considering an MBA? Well Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business offers and outstanding MBA program AND an MS in Environmental and Sustainability Management. And today’s interview is with the associate dean of admissions for both programs. Pull up a chair.
Interview with Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean for MBA and MS-ESM admissions, and Director of Marketing at Georgetown’s McDonough School of Business. [Show Notes]Are you interested in sustainability? Are you also considering an MBA? Well, Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business offers an outstanding MBA program and an MS in Environmental and Sustainable Management. And today’s interview is with the Associate Dean of Admissions for both programs. Pull up a chair.
Welcome to the 512th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today’s interview, I want to give you a gift, Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out. This guide will help you navigate the paradox at the heart of admissions. Realize that you need to show in your application simultaneously that you fit in at your target schools, and that you stand out in the applicant pool.
It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean for MBA and MS-ESM admissions, and Director of Marketing at Georgetown’s McDonough School of Business. Shelly has been leading Georgetown’s admissions efforts since 2014 and became Associate Dean in 2017. She earned her BBA from Texas Christian University, her Master’s in Educational Administration from UT Austin, and her Executive MBA from Georgetown.
Shelly, welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:52]It’s wonderful to be back. Thanks, Linda, for having me.
Can you provide an overview of both Georgetown’s MBA programs and the MS in Environment and Sustainability Management or the ESM? [2:01]Yeah. Absolutely. I’ll start it with the MBA. The good news is our three MBAs are the same in that we have a full-time, a flex in-person for working professionals, and a flex online for working professionals.
They are all 54 credits. You get the same degree, and you have access to the same experience at Georgetown McDonough, so it makes it very easy to talk about. Full-time is 20 months, like a normal full-time two-year program would be, and then the two flex programs are anywhere between two-and-a-half years to five years. But you’re taking the same classes. You have the same core for the first half of the program, and then you get to choose from electives in the second half of the program.
At Georgetown, we don’t require you to choose a concentration. We really feel that you should customize based on what is of interest to you and/or really, what your skill gaps are. There are so many hats that we wear in our jobs today that may be strategy or marketing, or finance or budgeting. We want you to fill those skill gaps in the electives of your choosing. Very briefly, that is the nuts and bolts of the MBA programs. I should say that the flex online is newly launched, so we will be enrolling our first cohort this coming fall. And we’re really excited.
Moving now to the Master of Science and Environment and Sustainability Management. It is a lot of syllables, so we do shorten it to ESM, but we welcomed our first cohort this past fall. We launched it a year-and-a-half ago, and our first cohort of 45 students started in August. It is an 11-month program, 30 credits, and it’s an interdisciplinary academic program at the intersection of business and science. It’s very unique for Georgetown McDonough.
We’re actually partnering with the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences in this interdisciplinary format, which, for a university, is pretty unique. We’re really excited at the innovation in launching this degree. That’s very basic about the two programs.
One question we get a lot from applicants to part-time programs or to online programs, is the degree any different? Is there an asterisk after the MBA for the flex time or the part-time programs? Or is it just, you have a Master’s in Business Administration from Georgetown McDonough, whatever option you choose? [4:17]Yep, that is what your degree says, is MBA. Even if you did our Executive MBA, it just says MBA. Students can be assured that they’re getting the same rigorous coursework, classes, and professors. It’s not a diluted version of any of the MBAs that you do with us.
If someone is interested in a sustainability and management business degree, who should go for the MBA and just customize the program so that it’s focused on sustainability, and who should go for the MS-ESM? [5:00]This is one of the questions applicants really have to answer for themselves nowadays. You look back 20 years ago, it just used to be a degree. You went to business school, you got an MBA degree. Now, you have MBAs in all different flavors, and then you also have specialized master’s. The way to think about these two degrees is, specialized master’s are really good if you want to specialize in a certain topic. If it’s a certain function or industry area, you know for the short term or maybe even for the long term, that is what you want to do.
In a specialized ESM master’s, you know that you want to go into sustainability. You’ve decided upon that for your career, which is fantastic. I feel like sometimes some of us are still learning what we want to do even when we’re adults, but the classes are all going to center around that topic. The case studies that you would do, the group projects are going to be around that specialized topic. And you can guarantee that all the students in your class will all be interested in that same topic as well in a specialized master’s.
They’re typically shorter, so most specialized master’s degrees are a year or less. And therefore the cost, it reflects the shorter nature of the program. With an MBA degree, in most traditional two-year MBAs, you do a year of core courses, which are a breadth of topics. You do get exposed to a lot of different topic areas. And then typically, at least with Georgetown, in the last half of your program, you choose your electives. Someone at Georgetown could choose to do an MBA focusing on courses in sustainability. They can even actually get a certificate in sustainability at Georgetown through the MBA, and then participate in the various clubs related to sustainability.
This could be good for someone who thinks they maybe want to do sustainability, but maybe they’re not sure. And/or they want to leave the door open maybe three, five, seven years from now when they might want to pivot to something else. Because an MBA is that degree that can allow you to pivot long into the future, into another type of industry. It’s a little bit longer. Also, the cost reflects that, but it is a broader degree in scope.
What distinguishes Georgetown’s program in Environment and Sustainability Management from other similar programs? [7:41]When we were doing the research, I was on the taskforce to launch this program. When we were doing research of what other schools were out there that combined science knowledge plus business knowledge, we noticed that there were degree programs that were either housed only in an environment school, so they were in a school of environment, the school of science, or we noticed what we just talked about. They were in a business school where it was a business degree with a little bit of a flavor of environmental sustainability.
What we saw lacking was a university saying, “No, we want it to be almost equal.” We want to have half professors from the environment and science classes in their pedagogy and half professors from business coming together for this interdisciplinary approach. I think someone outside of the academic world may say, “Well, that’s a no-brainer to merge.” But in the university world, merging schools at an institution like Georgetown, it’s pretty innovative. And so that’s what we did.
We said we’re going to take experts in the field of business, experts in the field of science and environment, and put it together into a degree. You can look at the curriculum chart and see half classes in each discipline, and then some classes that were what we call interdisciplinary, where the topics are being combined. What that also does is it gives students the best of both worlds. In many cases, they get access to different events and clubs at the McDonough School of Business. They get access to different clubs at the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. They also get access to the Earth Commons.
We’re providing them more resources in many ways than had that degree only been housed in one school. It was a really exciting initiative. We didn’t know what to expect when we launched the degree, but in our first application round three months after launching, we had 100 applications and we had a total of four application rounds. It was really exciting to be a part of this growth at Georgetown.
https://youtu.be/QvgftKu5EQcHow many students are in the ESM program, the MS-ESM? [9:54]We have 45, this first cohort. It was funny. Last year, we set out saying, “Okay, we’re going to try to get 40 students.” And then after our first round, we had 100 applications. And then throughout the next three rounds, more and more and more. We actually got to a room capacity constraint where we could have enrolled a larger class, but classrooms that we were scheduled to be housed in had a fireproof capacity. Honestly, that is why we limited it to 45, which seems silly, but that’s actually the reality of what happened.
Any plans to add on to the room or expand the class? [10:31]For this year, so far, we’re tracking ahead of last year, which is great. So we’ll see what happens in May. But I will say, in the future of this program, we may think of doing something for working professionals. Or we may think of doing something that’s more accessible virtually. But as of now, our goal is to keep the quality of the students high. And so I think for at least for this next year, we’ll probably keep it the same size.
You didn’t say it explicitly, it was implied that the MS-ESM is an in-residence program. [11:01]Yes, I should say that. It’s an in-person program. Classes are during the daytime hours. We do have students doing internships and working at about 20 hours a week, so you can still work part-time while in the program. For example, if you’re working at one of these large environmental organizations in DC and they allow you to scale back and go maybe only 20 hours a week, you could still do the program in person while working part-time.
It must be pretty rigorous though. [11:33]It is. Yeah. It’s a 30-credit, 11-month program, so it is rigorous.
Where are graduates of Georgetown’s, both its MBA program and its MS-ESM program, where are they finding jobs? [11:43]With the MBA program, we’re very similar to a lot of traditional programs where we have our top three students going into consulting, finance and technology. Georgetown’s MBA also has a lot of diversity outside of those top three. We have students going into real estate, nonprofit, entrepreneurship, global organizations as well. There’s a little bit more diversity in the pie, if you want to say that, in terms of our post-MBA career outcomes.
And then for ESM, I think what’s exciting is, we haven’t graduated our first class, so let’s see where they’re going. But I will say, the green economy, when we started researching this, the World Economic Forum produced these predictions of the amount of jobs that will be produced in the green economy by 2030. And it’s in the multi-millions. I think 24 million rings, don’t quote me, but I think 24 million.
I started looking at these jobs and all of your major Fortune 100, 500 for-profit companies, but then NGOs have some type of sustainability positions now, and it’s incredible. You look at major sports apparel companies or major hotel brands, major food companies, and they all have sustainability jobs. The interesting thing though is, there’s not a lot of programs, degree programs that are producing graduates with the skills yet for these jobs, and so that’s I think where Georgetown has filled quite a niche and gap there.
You’re really at the forefront then? [13:23]I’d like to think so, yes.
What kind of academic background are you looking for in applicants to both the programs, both the MBA and the MS-ESM? Much the same or somewhat different? [13:27]Well, I would say so for MBA, I would say for both programs, we need to see some level of quantitative ability. When I say quantitative, having some knowledge of statistical forces is going to give you a head start. That’s been, I think, some of the classes where when people come in varying level of statistics abilities, that it maybe isn’t the best classroom experience. If you can come in having some basic stats class, you’ve done it online, you’ve done it for credit, that’s going to give you an even playing field coming into both of the programs.
In terms of the majors that suit best, for an MBA, we have all different kinds of majors. I think maybe a third of people for an MBA come from a traditional business major. After that, it could be humanities, liberal arts, engineering, science, really all over the map. I think what we’ve seen for the ESM program is, we had about 40% come from some type of environmental or natural science background, which was a large chunk. And then the other 60% were very diverse, everything from economics to government, to business, humanities.
I just think by the nature of who would be attracted to this program, we’re going to have some people that came from an environment or science.
In terms of experience, specifically work experience, what do you expect, again, for the MBA programs as opposed to the MS-ESM? [15:00]For the MBA program, you have to have a minimum of two years at the time that you start the program. The average though, is typically between four to six years. That’s the average because that’s where employers say it’s the sweet spot when they come to hire. We have had students come in with 10 years work experience, but their career goals have to just be adjusted a little bit because they are going to be overqualified for some of the traditional MBA jobs. They’re going to have to be willing to do more just in time recruiting, one-off recruiting for the level that they’re qualified for.
Or perhaps they have their own business? [15:47]Yep. Exactly.
Or they have a job waiting for them? [15:50]Exactly. Or they’ve come out of the military and they’re looking to transition. That’s the age. For a specialized master’s degree, and in particular the ESM program, it’s skewing slightly younger. The average is just under four years of work experience versus an MBA, which is between four and six. We do allow people to come out of undergrad, right out of undergrad.
They do need to have significant internship or project experience in environment sustainability. They’ve got to be able to contribute in the classroom, and that’s going to come from a very engaged undergraduate experience. We have let some people right out of undergrad, but then we have people with 10 years of work experience, who perhaps 10 years ago, didn’t have any options for an environment or sustainability master’s because they weren’t there.
They’ve now come back to say, “I either have been working in this field and now want some formal education in it,” or, “I’m looking to pivot my field into this.” Yes, we have people of all different experiences. The one common thread is, they all have a passion for environment and sustainability, as you could imagine.
I noticed that tests are optional for the MS-ESM, and they are required, but waivers are available for the MBA. Why the difference, and is it really a difference? [17:11]That’s great. It’s one of these things like seven years or eight years ago, we wouldn’t have been asking this question at all.
But it’s very relevant today. For the ESM program, it is optional, and we say it’s optional because truly, it is. You don’t need to prove anything. You don’t need to show anything. If you already have the test, great. Submit it. Or, perhaps, if your GPA is lacking and/or you don’t have a lot of work experience that’s substantial, then maybe that standardized test could help elevate your profile. But it is strictly, strictly optional.
For the MBA program, this year, we have moved to a waiver process. Now, there’s two different waivers. For our full-time program, you actually have to apply for the waiver and be accepted or admitted with the waiver, before you can then apply for the program. There are certain criteria.
You have to apply for the waiver first. It’s a very short form to say, do you meet the GPA criteria? Do you meet the quantitative work experience? It’s a short Google form you fill out and then we will say, “Yep, the test has been waived for you.” And now you can submit the application without a test. The reason for that is, we want to be fair to applicants. The full-time program, we get a large volume of applications. It takes people a lot of time to go through the application process.
https://youtu.be/YViZ5EbDgM8You have to prepare for the test. [18:57]Yeah. Exactly. And to write the essays and get the recommendations. We want to tell people right away, are you going to be eligible without a test or not? Because we don’t want to take your application fee, go through the whole process and then say, “You know what? You’re not eligible without a test, so you wasted your time.” We’d rather let them know upfront, save their time, save our time, and then move forward.
If they’re admissible without the test or you don’t need the test, why put them through the test prep and the test? [19:21]Right. Exactly. Exactly. We want to be cognizant of their time and do that in the beginning of the process. With our flex program, if you meet the criteria we’ve listed on our website, you can submit without a test. It’s a lower volume of applications. Any part-time program in any MBA in the US is a lower volume than their full-time for attracting local audiences, not global audiences. What we look for in a flex part-time applicant is a little bit different. We’re emphasizing more of their work experience in terms of what they bring to the class. Yes, academics are important, but we’re looking at different contributions in the admissions process.
Both offer test waivers. At the end of the day, we want to know if an MBA student is going to be successful in the quantitative classes of the curriculum, finance, stats, accounting. People can show that through their standardized tests. They can show it through quant classes that they took in undergrad. Perhaps they have a CPA or CFA. Perhaps they do quantitative. We just want all of our students set up for success when they start the program, and that’s why, perhaps, there’s a difference between MBA and ESM. Because MBA is a more highly quantitative degree.
The essay questions for the two programs are really quite different, but you’re the one managing both of the processes, right? [10:44]Yes.
The video essay for the MS-ESM is about long-term career goals. The video essay for the MBA asked for a hobby, passion, or what you want to do for fun in your free time, and why. Are you doing an experiment on the two programs, trying to see what kind of responses you get? What is the reason for the different questions? [21:06]Yeah. No, great question. For ESM, we’ll start with ESM. Just like it’s an interdisciplinary academic degree, we have an interdisciplinary admissions committee, so it’s a different process. We have people from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, we have faculty on the admissions committee, and then we have admissions professionals. So different structure entirely. But also, if you look at the questions we’re asking, we want to get to know this audience. It is a new program and we want to know, why are they interested in environmental sustainability?
We know at the school why it’s important and we know where these students are going, but we want to hear from them why they’re interested in this kind of new degree. And why are they choosing Georgetown versus some of the other programs out there? Because if we’re going to be spending 11 months talking about environmental sustainability, someone needs to be able to write an essay that says why they’re passionate about it. Because it’s a highly concentrated topic of interest and focus in the program. That’s why it’s a little bit of a different question, because it’s new and we want to get to know the audience. And then we want to know how they’re planning to use this in the future in environmental sustainability.
With an MBA, as we’ve talked about, it’s a totally diverse audience. People are going to all different types of jobs, industry, skills, they’re starting their own companies. An MBA is a well-established kind of degree. People know what they’re getting into and know why they’re doing it. We really want to get to know the diverse complexity of the student audiences, and we get to know that through the three prompts that we’ve provided. What I love about how we do this at Georgetown is, we don’t force people into one essay. We give them three, allow them to think about what sells their value proposition the best, and then answer that, the best one.
They also focus on our values. If you think of principled leadership, helping the common good, diversity in the Georgetown community, these are very strong values of Georgetown. And admitting people that are going to be a part of that thread of our community and value fabric is really important. In both programs though, we have video essays, and I love video essays because it allows us to get to know the candidate in a hopefully non-stressful environment. Sometimes the applicants get very stressed out by the interview experience. They shouldn’t. We try not to make it stressful, but they do.
The video essay allows them to re record and record that video essay as much as they want until they feel like it represents them. And then it allows us to see them in a very normal, non-stressed environment. And we get to know them a little bit outside of paper as well. That’s why we do the video essay. It’s helpful in the MBA because of the volume of applications and the volume of people in the admissions committee. In the ESM program, we don’t have an evaluative interview components, so this video essay is in substitution of it.
Any plans to introduce an interview to the ESM admissions process? [24:26]Not at this time. But as with any new program, we, every year, evaluate and optimize and get feedback. Because it’s a smaller program, we’re already getting to know the candidates a lot in the pre-application process. Our admissions recruiter can almost go down the line of the applications and say, “Yep, I’ve met with that person, met with that person.” We just get to know them a little bit more. At this point, no evaluated interview, but we’ll see. We’ll see how that might change.
What can an interviewee to the MBA program expect that they’re lucky enough to be invited to interview? Is it all virtual now, or are you starting to do in-person? [25:01]We are completely back in business, as I say. Yes, we are offering virtual. Certainly, it’s more conducive to people’s schedules and the travel cost, but we want people to come to campus. I think when you step onto Georgetown’s campus, and especially the Hariri Rebuilding, it’s a magnificent campus.
You really feel the weight of the history and the prestige, and so we want people to come to campus to get to know our community. But obviously, if it works better to do virtual, they can do that.
What can you expect? It’s 20 to 25 minutes. We give candidates a few minutes to ask some questions of us. It could be from a member of the admissions team or an alumni, or a student interviewer. We have a large team. We do that so we can reduce biases, by having multiple opinions and perspectives. We have a series of questions or topics we will ask students, but we also like to have the conversation flow. If you say something that’s of, really, interest to us, we may ask you to expand on that.
The goal is for us to picture how you’ll fit within the cohort from an academic perspective, from a giving-back-to-the-student experience perspective, from an alumni perspective. We’re trying to see how you really fit with the culture and community at Georgetown. But don’t be nervous. Just have a conversation with us. Get to know us as we’re getting to know you. It’s a two-way street, really.
They should also prepare questions for you, shouldn’t they? [26:41]Absolutely. Absolutely. That is one of the, I would say, biggest mistakes that I’ve seen applicants make is I’ll say, “Do you have any questions that I can answer for you?” Some people will say, “Well, I’ve had all my questions answered from all of the students and admission staff that I’ve previously spoken with.” That may be the case, but still, ask a question anyways.
Because even if you already know the answer, think you know the answer, ask it anyway. Because it does show a level of interest in the school, and we are gauging the level of interest you have in us when we interview you. Again, just repeat something even if you feel like you know the answer.
Now, just to clarify, you said that you have a large team of interviewers, but the applicant is interviewed by one person, correct? [27:25]Correct. Yeah, that’s absolutely correct.
It’s one interview with one person, so it’s one-on-one? [27:34]Yes.
The deadlines are March 30th and May 2nd for the MBA program, and April 3rd and May 15th for the MS-ESM. Is an applicant at a disadvantage if they apply in these later rounds? Are they better off waiting until next year? [27:44]No, you’re not at a disadvantage. There is always room for good applicants. I would say, in particular, this year, we are very empathetic to these tech layoffs. I almost feel like in some ways, it’s mirroring the layoffs of 2020 and 2008. People from fantastic companies that are now saying, “Let me reevaluate. Am I in the right industry? Am I in the right function?” If the answer is, “I don’t know,” or, “No,” come to an MBA and reset and figure it out. Or come and do a specialized master’s to make yourself that more marketable to guard against potential layoffs maybe in the future.
Investing in yourself with a graduate degree will only help you in the future, but it can also give you some mental space to really think through, introspect in, what’s happening in your personal and professional life, and figuring out what’s right for you. And then you also gain a great network of colleagues as well. It’s not too late to apply. If you are ready, submit an application.
In a worst case scenario, let’s say we don’t have room for you, we love re-applicants. Re-applicants have a high percentage of admit rate. When we pull the numbers and we see re-applicants that have come back and maybe improve their application a little bit from the previous year based on feedback we give them, their admit rate is higher than just applicants in their first try. Have a conversation with us, we want to get to know you. And definitely apply.
Has Georgetown made any accommodations for the laid off workers, or are you just planning to, I guess, reserve more seats for the third and fourth round, given what’s been going on the last couple of months? [29:33]Yeah. We did make accommodations in that we were going to only leave our full-time test waiver open in the fall. We decided to extend the test waiver into the spring because studying for a test can take three, four, five months. We know that this is affecting candidates right now. They may not have that time, so we just extended what we had already done in the fall.
If you look at our application fees, we have different criteria that we introduced about a year ago based on your income level. If you are under certain income levels, therefore if you were just laid off, you can qualify for different waivers or reductions. That’s something we’ve always been proud to do, to recognize people from different socioeconomic statuses.
Georgetown has always had four rounds, so I know I see a lot of other MBA programs adding a fourth round or adding a third round. We’ve always had four rounds, so for us, we will keep that, and then may extend some rolling flexibility right after the fourth round. We will just see how everything goes.
Let’s just focus on MBA and the ESM. What should they be doing? What should they be examining in their background to see if they need to improve something and be ready for the fall? [31:04]Yeah. I can tell an applicant that has gotten to know us really well, because they have come to various events, even if they’re virtual. They have talked with some current students and they’ve maybe talked with some alumni. By doing all those conversations, by the time they get to the application process and the interview process, they can talk very naturally and very authentically about why they’re interested in Georgetown. And it comes through. It’s not like they’re memorizing facts from our resume. They just speak about it because they came to campus or they had lunch with this alum.
We can tell that authenticity, and that weighs in pretty heavily to the admissions and interview process. Because any school wants candidates that want to be at their school. I’m sure I could speak for any of my colleagues that would say that. So use this next six months to do that. Get to know the schools. Get to know Georgetown, because it will then further convict you if we’re the right school for you as well. It helps you and it helps us, so do that.
Come visit us. We have different in-person or virtual sessions. And we are back traveling throughout the world, so check out our website. We’ll be at, hopefully, a city or a country near you in the next six to eight months, and we’d love to meet you.
There were some really interesting projects that the ESM students were doing. Could you dive into that for a moment? [32:39]Yes, definitely. This is the Capstone Project. In any of our graduate programs, there’s always a very hands-on Capstone experience. We just announced or about to announce the Capstone Projects for the ESM students. We have companies like Amazon, Department of Energy, Starbucks, that are going to be participating in this Capstone Project. Students will be in small teams, they will solve a problem for these companies and then present their recommendations to the company. Really excited about those for the ESM program, all very environment and sustainability focused. And it mirrors the Global Business Experience that our MBA students do, which also tackles and solves a problem for a current company.
In terms of other projects, just to add on for ESM, we have, even in this first year, students who have already published articles in the Supply Chain Management Review. The topic of this article was palm oil supply chain, and it’s just so impressive to say four months in, we have students publishing in a top journal. Lots of things that are hands-on in both programs.
You mentioned not asking questions in interviews. What else do you see as a common mistake that applicants make? [34:07]A common mistake is underselling their accomplishments on their resume. There’s a lot of times where I see a student’s resume and I then speak with them, whether it’s an informational interview or if it’s an in evaluative interview, and they start talking about some of their experiences in their job. I’m looking at their resume and they’ve undersold themselves.
For example, I was interviewing a candidate one time and they talked about how they got promoted at this top consulting firm. I’m looking at their resume and their promotion is not on their resume, and they were at a top consulting firm. The person said, “Well, I just ran out of room.” And I said, “You never run out of room to say you’ve been promoted.”
Thinking through how to show those accomplishments, how to write a resume that is not bullets of responsibilities. Instead, bullets of accomplishments.
Quantify your accomplishments. What did you do to improve the process, the function, the department? That’s a big mistake that I see a lot of people making, to be very honest.
One way to guard against that is, go to the website. Go to your company’s website, or go to your competitor’s website and look at a similar job description to the one that you have, and think through. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. This is what I’m doing. This is the way I can position my responsibilities. Because sometimes, from a bird’s eye perspective, what you’ve written on your resume doesn’t really reflect the value and truly immense work that you’re doing for a company.
Because when you see that, then it tells us at the school that you’re going to go above and beyond in the program. You’re going to go above and beyond when you get a job as an alum. It builds a profile of who you are.
You’re in Washington DC. What does that add to the programs? [36:45]Yeah. Washington DC is the nexus of everything in many ways. Fortune 100 companies, nonprofits, NGOs, government. There’s actually a statistic out there from the Chamber that says there’s the largest concentration of Fortune 500 companies is represented in DC. It may not be their headquarters, but there is a representation of companies that are out here. What that means for applicants is, when you’re networking, you don’t necessarily have to go to New York or Boston or Silicon Valley. There is going to be someone from an office that’s here in DC that can get you your foot in the door, that you can network with here, having coffee, versus having to necessarily take the train or take a plane somewhere.
I will also say that we have tons of large speakers and world leaders that are in and out of DC all the time to do whatever they do. But while they’re here, they often want to speak with students because it’s fulfilling for them as a leader. They often will come to Georgetown and they’ll speak to students. And so our students get exposure to literally world and corporate leaders.
I think every sitting president has spoken at Georgetown. Whether it’s the President of the Peace Corps or a chief in the military, or CEOs of a bank, or CEOs of consumer products, good companies come to Georgetown. That exposure from a learning perspective. Also, alumni are constantly in and out of DC. And so being able to network and build your network is helpful.
From a very work-life balance perspective, and I say this with a perspective, I’m from Texas, so I’ve lived in DC for a little bit of time now, but I’m originally from Texas, DC has a great work-life balance. There’s the Potomac River. You can go kayaking. You can go two hours west of here and be in the mountains and ski. You can go three hours east of here and go be on the beach. Short ride to New York. We’re just in a great large city with a small town feel.
What question would you have liked me to ask that I didn’t ask? [39:05]Why Georgetown, maybe? Why Georgetown?
I love this question because I can talk about it with just authenticity, that I believe in it. What makes Georgetown unique, I guess, is how I maybe would even word it. We have a global focus. Because of our location in Washington DC, which is a very global city, and because of the students that we attract, we typically have over 40 countries in the MBA program. Even in the ESM program this year, we had over 20 countries, with 45 students.
Wow. [39:48]You’re getting to be exposed to this global environment in a very short amount of time, the global nature of our professors. A third of them hold international passports. We’re talking about global companies and global organizations. Second is our Jesuit background. I didn’t know what a Jesuit school meant or what it was before I came to work at Georgetown. To be very honest, I am not Catholic, but I’ve learned to appreciate what being a Jesuit means.
There’s a real focus on taking care of the whole person and teaching in the classroom. We hire professors that actually want to teach and are motivated by teaching, not just researching. As an executive MBA student, I saw the stark difference going into the MBA classroom. These professors were almost like putting on a show. They were invested in this experience of the MBA, which was phenomenal.
I would also say we teach at the intersection of business and society and politics and environment, looking at a more bird’s eye view of what’s happening in the world. And then yes, being in DC, it is a part of your experience. Maybe in undergrad, I would’ve wanted to go to a more rural location. But if I’m in a professional degree program where my goal is to get a job coming out, I want to be where the employers are, where the alumni are, where the networking is happening. I want to be in a city, and so you obviously get that at Georgetown.
Shelly, thank you so much for joining me today. I really enjoyed learning about Georgetown’s MBA program a little bit more again, and the MS-ESM program. Thank you, again. [41:16]Thank you. Thanks for having me. It’s always great to be on, Linda.
Relevant Links:
- Georgetown MBA
- Georgetown MS-ESM
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Shortcuts to Key Insights from this Episode* How to prepare and practice for the Casper. * A detailed explanation on how the subjective test is scored. * The most recent development in making Casper more equitable across all demographics. * What happens if raters identify a red flag. * Will Casper spread to other fields such as social work and law? * Common misconceptions about Casper. * Relevant Links and Related Shows
Do you have to take the CASPer for at least some of the programs you are applying to? Are you concerned about? This interview with the co-founder of Acuity Insights, the folks who provide the Casper, is for you! [Show Summary]Dr. Dore discusses everything applicants need to know about taking the Casper and what it truly tests.
Interview with Dr. Kelly Dore, Co-Founder & VP of Science and Innovation at Acuity Insights and Adjunct Professor at McMaster University at McMaster University. [Show Notes]Do you need to take the Casper for at least some of the programs you are applying to, are you concerned about it? Well, this interview with the co-founder of Acuity Insights, the folks that bring us the Casper, is for you.
Welcome to the 513th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to your Dream Medical Schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/med-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free. Again, take the quiz at accepted.com/med-quiz to obtain your free assessment.
Our guest today is Dr. Kelly Dore, co-founder and vice President of Science and Innovation at Acuity Insights, and also adjunct professor at McMaster University. Dr. Dore, welcome to Admission Straight Talk.
Can you give an overview of the Casper exam and its structure? What can applicants expect? [1:31]Sure. So the exam most people who are familiar with from Acuity is Casper. Casper is an online situational judgment test. A situational judgment test, it’s different than a behavioral interview question you might have. If people are familiar with doing interviews where you say, tell me about a time you managed multiple responsibilities at once. Instead, an SJT presents a scenario in the case of Casper. The majority of those are video scenarios too; you’re watching a 60 to 90-second video. You have a role in it that we tell you at the beginning, and you watch that video and then you get a series of questions after it. So you watch the scenario, see what’s going on, and there’s then three follow up questions talking about what you would do and why you would take that course of action.
The total exam takes around 90 minutes, and during that time, there’s opportunity for breaks. There’s the chance to just reflect, so you’ll watch the video. There’s a chance to have a reflection period before you go into typing your response or recording your response, depending on the moment In Casper. Now Casper broadly is intended to measure social intelligence and professionalism in applicants. It was developed so that we could get a more holistic picture of applicants supporting that holistic selection process and the Casper exam. We’ll go into more detail about it, but it is something that we hope supports the application process.
When can applicants take it? I know it’s online. Can they take it at six in the morning, wherever they are? Can they take it at 10 o’clock at night? [3:01]Absolutely. So because it is online, and I always say we were online before online was cool. So back in 2010, we started with an online examination because we started in Canada and we wanted to ensure that we weren’t disadvantaging our rural and remote applicants. They weren’t having to travel to test centers to take this examination because the intent of it is it’s used early on in the admissions process. So before you’ve gone for an interview or things like that, this happens. So you don’t want to have to travel or incur costs for accommodation and things.
So the way that Casper works is because it’s a proctored examination, there’s set test times. Now there’s a variety of set test times. It’s not just one time. So when you’re applying, if you’re applying to physiotherapy, you can go in, look for your school and look at all the different test windows that are open to you. Now, the test, as I said, takes about 90 minutes. You have a two-hour window to complete the test. So it’s not that it’s to the moment and then your computer shuts off. You have a little bit of flex time, and of course, folks who require accommodations can apply for that if they need extended time and things like that.
Is there a different Casper rexam if you’re applying to medical school than if you’re applying to DO programs or PA programs or whatever? [4:13]Yeah. There are different Casper tests that exist. So first of all, the Casper tests that’s even between Canada and the US are different Casper tests. Because they take into consideration some of the cultural nuances and settings that are appropriate for that country. And also the raters who rate that examination, and we’ll talk about that a little bit later, are from that country. So you don’t have people from Canada rating U.S. tests and vice versa.
Now, we also have different levels of tests. So people who are coming out of high school applying to a nursing program, they get a different level of Casper test than somebody may be applying to medical school, and then somebody applying to residency would get an even different level of test. So we’ve got that set up for the level of difficulty. And then in addition, we also have little test groups as well. So MD and DO applicants can write the same examination because we know there’s cross application there, so we didn’t want them to have to write two examinations. And then the others have their own test windows as well. Sounds a little confusing as I’m explaining it, but when you go on and enter your school, you’ll see that the test is set there, it’s set for you at the right level for the school that you’re applying to.
How many different kinds of tests are there? It sounds like there’s a lot. [5:34]It does sound like there’s a lot. We have an amazing content development team who works with a lot of equity and diversity in mind as they’re developing them. But they also keep in mind they want to get the right level of difficulty. The scenarios that we present, so for example, if you’re applying to a medical school or you’re applying to a nursing program, there’s not clinical content in there that you need to know because we don’t want to give advantage to anybody who’s family is a physician versus those who are maybe first in their family to attend university.
So the content is intended to be relevant to everybody. So that’s why when we have these different levels of tests, we want to make sure that people who are leaving high school have had the opportunity to have the experiences we have in this scenario or can at least relate to them. And then similarly, people applying to medical school, they may have had other examples of things in university they would’ve encountered. So we can have a little bit different scenarios there.
So the goal is obviously to assess judgment, I guess cultural awareness, the non subject matter related aspects of a medical school or healthcare application, correct? [6:35]Healthcare application, absolutely. So we’re wide across healthcare. So a variety of different types of programs use us to apply to. One of the important things is that while we broadly measure social intelligence rather than professionalism, there’s a lot of sub areas that are covered in that. So communication, collaborations, ethics, empathy, they’re sometimes referred to as the non-cognitive skills or non-academic skills. I actually have heard them recently referred to as the durable skills because the technical skills and the knowledge stuff is constantly changing in the world that we live in. But these are the things that are durable throughout somebody’s lifetime and training, and I really like that term.
I like that too. So that’s what admissions committees are gleaning from it. This professionalism, the socialism intelligence, is there a way for applicants to prepare for it or practice for it? [7:26]Yes. And because we know, and I can tell you this, when we started this examination in McMaster back in 2010, a single medical school in Canada, there was a test prep company that popped up when we started it and I said, “We can tell you how to write Casper.” And I thought, “I can’t tell folks how to write Casper. I don’t know how they’re doing it.” And we really wanted to ensure that we were creating an assessment that didn’t provide an opportunity for third-party coaching in that same way. We didn’t want you to have to pay in order to do better on the examination. So a couple of things that we did around the structure of that.
So first and foremost, we do have a practice test. There’s a technical requirements check that you can do and a full practice test. And the reason that those are important is that when we did a study actually looking at people’s preparatory methods for taking Casper, whether it was third-party coaching, doing the practice test, sitting in their room thinking about the types of things that were measuring, the only thing that had a little incremental value was really the practice test that they could write. And it’s because we know this, it’s a familiarization with the format.
So you go on, there is a time limit for the answers. And I think that is one of the things that people are always worried about is that you can actually go on to complete some of this. You can do it as many times as you want, if you want to do it 10 times. It’s all about making you feel more comfortable in a stressful situation as much as possible. So I really encourage. This is what I tell all of the pre-health advisors, always get your applicants to do the practice test, make them feel comfortable. They know what they’re getting into, whether that’s typing their response or video recording their response. It just gives them that opportunity to feel a little bit more comfortable with that. And then in addition, we send out a ton of materials.
So on our website, there’s a webinar that you can watch that our applicant support team who’s amazing goes through everything for you, how to sign up, how to do all the things you might want to do to prepare, how to get a quiet space for yourself, et cetera. And then there’s also emails that go out in other literature that we provide to say, “What are our tips and tricks? If we could tell you everything that we would do if we were writing the test, what would we tell you?” And that’s all there free and accessible for folks to go and grab, which is really important because we want to make sure that as much as possible, we’re able to level that playing field. So really encourage folks to go try those out.
https://youtu.be/NceLfTJ2nmcI think one of the biggest concerns that we hear from clients and medical and healthcare applicants of all fields is how do you grade and test something as subjective, that’s judgment? [11:04]That’s a great question. You have to have experience. And I think the other thing about bad judgment is we all do make mistakes. Any of us who said, I don’t make mistakes would be but-
Using bad judgment. [11:31]Exactly. And the whole point of that though is to learn from it. And if you’ve learned from it, then really at the end of the day you’re doing better because you’re really starting to reflect and think on things. Not everybody does that, unfortunately. Some people still continue on to go make bad judgments, but hopefully most of us are trying to do that. So when we actually started to create this test in the first place, that was part of our consideration. There’s really cool research by Shiphra Ginsburg out of the University of Toronto who’s looked at professionalism. And what she found is that if you get experts, so these folks who are faculty members who are supposed to be able to measure professionalism, and you get them to watch a scenario, what’s interesting is they can’t agree on a course of action.
And that what you realize here is when we talk about these complex professionalism scenarios, there’s no single right answer that exists. There’s lots of shades of gray in all of this, and they’re all impacted by exactly what you say, our own experiences, our own pathway, the things that we’ve encountered, the context around the thinking that we’re doing at the time. I was always the person who when I was writing multiple choice examinations in university, I would write in beside the answer why I picked that one, because I need to contextualize it. Just that gives you a little weird insight into my psyche.
So one of the things that helps you realize is that there’s a lot of thinking that goes into why we pick an answer. So when we created the Casper examination, intentionally we made it open-ended because we don’t think it’s right for applicants to look through and pick from a list of five the most appropriate, because that varies a lot. And Shiphra Ginsburg found the same, that if she had to try and get experts to agree on a right course of action, she had to simplify and simplify and simplify the scenarios again until it was obvious.
So we really want to have these complex professionalism scenarios. What we need to do is actually have open-ended responses where Linda, you and I would see the same scenario, but we’ve had completely different experiences in our lives. So we may take the same course of action, but for very, very different reasons, or we might take different courses of actions, both of which are very appropriate when we contextualize them and we explain our why behind it. And it’s really that why that helps us score Casper. If we just had people write their answers about what they would do, in all honesty, we wouldn’t get the right information. It’s why you take that course of action that really helps us know A, it’s an authentic response. You’re not just trying to pick what I think is right, what you really feel and believe is the right course of action.
And then the other part of it is our rating part. So I always tell applicants this because I think it makes them feel better. Our raters have to do a Casper test so they know what it’s like to write your response or be saying your response and get cut off. So they understand that sometimes you don’t finish your last thought or you don’t, so they understand a lot. The other thing is that when we get them to do the rating, we don’t give them an ideal response to grade against, because again, Linda, when we’re answering a scenario, you might talk about communication and empathy, and I might talk about collaboration and problem solving in my response, both of which are very appropriate or-
Social influences. [14:46]Or social influences, exactly. So we might take it in slightly different directions because of things that are important to us. So we don’t want our raters going through and just having this pre-prescribed idea of what the right answer is because there is no single right answer. And as they’re doing this, they’re going through and they’re looking at applicants as they go through multiple applicants for the same scenario. So they’re benchmarking as they go through and after they’ve rated 20, they can go back and rescore those responses because I may think something is a seven out of nine, and then after I’m like, “That’s actually an eight or a nine out of nine,” after I see the other responses. So it’s relative to your peers as well. And people, what we’ve seen, and we can give example responses is that some folks say, I would do A, and some people say they would do B and they score the same, and that’s one of the most important things.
The other piece is that there’s still subjectivity in it, that’s right. Most of the world is subjective, unfortunately, whether you like what I’m wearing is subjective or not, whether or not I introduce myself properly or explain the Casper test well is subjective or not. So one of the most important things is this concept of multiple independent responses. So a GPA is valuable because it’s not just a measure of a single course. A multiple choice exam is valuable because it’s not just a single question. Casper becomes valuable because it’s not just a single scenario. This year there’s 14 scenarios that folks are going through to get that score, and it’s your performance on each of those. So you could have a Casper scenario and you say, “I did not answer that one.” Well, you just feel like you didn’t nail it as much as you would like to. That’s okay. The other raters have no idea how you answered that scenario. You just go on and you start again fresh with-
So it’s different raters rating? [16:42]It’s a different rating-
It’s not by the exam, it’s by the question? [16:48]Exactly. So we’ve removed this thing called the halo effect. The Halo effect is an unintended first impression bias that we all get. So I come on the call, you’re from Los Angeles and we didn’t have this conversation, but if I told you about this great story I had on my first visit to LA. That might make you think differently than if I didn’t know you were from LA and I said, “I don’t really like that city.” That just creates this unconscious bias in your head, just like a panel interview. So part of the reason panel interviews are difficult is that folks can go in and if you’re really nervous on the first question and you stumble and you don’t feel like you’ve got it, you still have to answer the rest of the interview questions is part of the same group and you’re constantly thinking about how they may have seen your response.
But with Casper, it’s a brand new rate for each scenario that you write. So what that allows you to do is have a 14 different fresh starts as you’re going through and really present your best self as you’re going through. So that score that you get at the end is 14 independent impressions of how you did across 14 different types of scenarios.
And the rater is only rating, let’s say question one? [18:00]Question one for multiple different-
Another rater is rating question two and another rater question three. I assume you have multiple scenarios, you don’t just have one set of scenarios for each program because otherwise it gets shared and all that stuff. [18:04]Exactly. Yeah. And the nice thing about that too is that because we know with implicit bias, we all have bias, this unconscious bias that we all have by having multiple raters, it allows us to minimize the potential impact of that bias across the examination.
I viewed the sample videos that you have online, the sample scenarios, and I was struck by the fact that they were all basically ethical dilemmas. [18:36]And there is ethics in everything, in all honesty, it’s this umbrella over a lot of things. Exactly. And the scenarios we used are probably some of the ones that we’ve gotten feedback over. We actually are going to likely update them. So a lot of them you’ll see, sometimes it feels like communication goes over a bunch of scenarios, and that makes sense because you can’t cover just one dimension in a scenario, and that’s it. These are very, very multi-dimensional. And because we’re talking about professionalism across all of these scenarios, it also is your lens through which you’re seeing them a little bit too. You’re seeing the equity in them, you’re seeing the different pieces in the different scenarios. So one of the things that we’ve heard is that some applicants see one thing through the scenarios. They were like, “These were all about collaboration.” And somebody else said, “These things are all about ethics across the scenarios.” So it’s really interesting because it does allow that different lens for folks to have.
I remember the one about the fellow whose wife wants him to take paternity leave and he’s worried that it’s going to impact his future and his career. It was interesting. And he was talking about it with his colleague, and I was thinking to myself, “Why doesn’t he talk to his wife?” I was thinking, “Discuss it with your wife.” [19:49]Yeah. There’s a lot there, I think. And I think in what we’re trying to do is no scenario is perfect because they’re all meant to be complex and a little bit.
They were. [20:20]Yeah. So I think one of the things that we want folks to do is it really stimulates your thinking. Each year we modify the test because we take a lot of applicant feedback. We also use stakeholder feedback and data as well to try and evolve the test each year. So one of the things that we’ve done is after you watch the scenario, we’ve added a 30-second reflection time. So that really allows you to pause and say, “What was going on in that scenario and what was happening before you see the questions?” And very similar to what you’re saying there is because you do get these thoughts of like, well, “Why isn’t he doing that?”
Why is he talking to his colleague? Why is he going to talk to his wife? [20:56]Exactly.
Casper introduced video recorded responses last year. Are you planning to keep them going forward? It sounds like you are. And did you see any change in scores upwards or downwards with this change and another… Well, I’ll ask you my next question in a minute, but go ahead. [21:03]Okay, great. So for anybody that wrote the exam last year, they will have seen that we’ve evolved from just having typewritten responses, which is where we started back in 2010 to now also allowing some of the scenarios to be video recorded, just like a Zoom session. And then also other ones typed. And there were two reasons for that. One was applicant feedback that especially in the world that we live in, that they don’t want to just type their responses. They want to be able to communicate. And that ability to capture verbal communication is also so important because not every program can have an interview and not every program wants to wait to really value that communication piece until the interview time. That was, in fact, the first reason why we created Casper is that in our medical school, we were having to weight GPA so heavily, we used the MCAT verbal reasoning component back in the day, but we weren’t able to really measure these personal professional attributes early enough on.
So that was the original inception for why Casper was created. But when we started doing it, when we were at the edge of technology back in 2010 and scary as that is to sound, we were really just doing type responses because the internet wasn’t where it could be for people to actually capture videos. Now, the data has also said about videos that you can actually further minimize demographic differences with the use of videos, which is very counterintuitive, which we talked about implicit bias and readers actually seeing the videos. So before last year, we actually piloted it for two years before that, so where people could opt in and voluntarily complete the video at Casper. That allowed us to start collecting data and understanding because I’ll be honest, I wasn’t convinced when I read that first study that we would see demographic differences decrease, but amazingly enough, that’s what we saw.
So SJT, situational judgment tests and Casper in particular tend to have significantly smaller demographic differences than things like GPA, GRE, MCAT, those standardized academic tests. So because we’re measuring something different, we tend to have smaller demographic differences. So that means fascinating differences between the two groups. However, there were still demographic differences, they still existed, those group differences.
So with the addition of AV, we’ve found that we’ve been able to even further decrease those demographic differences. The strongest area where we’ve seen that is actually for Black or African American applicants who write the examination. So last year everybody wrote it who completed a Casper test, but we didn’t use the scores because we really wanted to test and make sure we were introducing something that made sense, was defensible in what we were doing, but also really did provide that demographic differences decrease that we wanted to see.
And we saw the results repeated for every different group. So whether that was nursing or OT/PT or MD, DO or GME for applicants to residency, we saw it time and time again. So for that reason, we made the decision to include it this year in the examination, which is in all honesty, so exciting to me because while we’ve made changes to the exam each year to try and make it more equitable, this is really, I think one of the first times a standardized test has really made a monumental change that’s demonstrated value in terms of demographic impact.
https://youtu.be/EcoW7jAaj9UI guess that’s the difference in literally looking at people as individuals as opposed to as members of a group. [24:44]I think so. And despite the fact that they’re videos, and again, I keep going back to the fact that this was counterintuitive to me at first. We’ve been able to see through a combination of the way that we train raters, but also because of the snapshots that we’re getting and we’re having, again, those multiple independent impressions, we’re able to capture data that not only predicts for future performance is defensible, but also now has increasingly smaller differences between groups that are applying, which just aligns with our mission of creating more equitable assessments in creating a world served by exceptional professionals.
Do medical schools or healthcare programs, whatever program they’re applying to have access to the actual exam, the videos, or do they just get the raw score? [25:32]Great question. So applicants who write get their quartile when they write. They understand where they fall.Part of the reason that we did that, and I just want to explain that, is that Casper is not like the GRE or the MCAT. It’s not a cut score that schools have-
Like you get a 512 or a 515- [25:59]And you’re in or you’re out. It’s not that way. It’s used in a way to support the holistic assessment of applicants. So it’s used in a rubric or in a formula along with people. So it’s not a cut score in that same way, I want to make sure people understand if they find out they’re in the bottom quartile, it does not mean that they’re ineligible for getting in.
So all they find out is what quartile they’re in? [26:22]They find out what quartile… The schools actually get the scores and they get the average score. So they don’t see the score for the individual scenarios. The only time that they would do that is if our raters do rate for red flags. So if there’s egregious racism, anything like that, that is in the response, the rater flags that. Now we at Acuity don’t make a decision about what to do with that that’s passed on to the school, whether or not they want to consider it a flag or not. So in those cases, that would be the only time. But in all honesty, I’m grateful to say that those are few and far between, which is very important.
So they get that they don’t see the videos or they don’t get the individual responses because we want them to be able to use the data. And what we know, and sadly enough we’ve heard, is that we know personal statements have limitations. They have bias in them, they tend to be not personal statements. They tend to be the collaboration of an entire community to write sometimes. Because if you have three months to write a high stakes personal statement, I’m going to get everybody I know to help give me feedback as you should.
That’s by the way, in my opinion, a recipe for disaster if you get everybody to comment. [27:32]I could not agree with you more.
So we know, unfortunately, that a lot of the personal statements that are written don’t get read because schools don’t have the resources to sort through them. That is unfortunately in some cases, the sad fact. Schools are getting better at that, which is the most exciting part because they understand it’s important to have more data points on applicants. But what we know is that if we gave schools every single scenario, they would just get overwhelmed with data. And each individual score itself is not a defensible score. It’s the collective that is a defensible score, and that’s what we want them to focus on.
Is the Casper predictive of success in healthcare programs, and as a clinician, has there been any studies to correlate Casperto passage on the Step exams or other licensing exams, especially the clinical ones or to the objective structured clinical examinations in medical school or other exams? [28:19]Those are the key questions. It’s like you might be measuring something, but are you measuring something that matters? And the exciting thing for us is that we’re seeing that data. What’s exciting in my mind is that that data is repeated school after school, after school. We’re seeing it repeated. What we tend to see, so in medical school for folks who are applying elsewhere, tends to be the first couple of years. It’s changing a little bit, but they tend to be more lecture-based where you’re focusing on anatomy and physiology and all of those really important things. But Casper doesn’t correlate with those things. We know Casper doesn’t correlate with GPA. It doesn’t correlate with those. So it doesn’t correlate with your measures of your anatomical knowledge, that shouldn’t. If it was, we would be measuring the wrong thing.
Where we see Casper starting to correlate is in those third and fourth years on OSCE performance. So what we tend to see is that it adds strength to the prediction, so additive to GPA or additive to the MCAT. So it makes it stronger. So it’s a combination of knowledge and personal professional attributes. Not surprisingly that they’re measuring in OSCE. We actually had the good fortune of doing a study with the National Board of Medical Examiners who do the Step exams at the end of medical school. And what we saw, not surprisingly, is that your Step one exam does not correlate with Casper. That is not surprising. It shouldn’t.
That’s a knowledge exam? [29:56]Exactly.
That’s step two and step three? [29:59]So Step 3, we didn’t have the data for unfortunately. Step 2 CS, we saw some increased correlations. What we saw, if we look at the Canadian National Licensing exam, and we published a study on this as well with the Medical Council of Canada, is that what we see is that Casper correlated with a component on the national licensing exam in Canada, which is roughly equivalent to the Step 2 CS, which had a component called the CCLEO and PHLO, which is the cultural, communication, legal, ethical, organizational and population health components. So big words, yes. What it predicted for if you did well on CCLEO and PHLO, it predicted good peer review out into practice and lack of professionalism complaints. So we saw Casper correlating that, which is a surrogate for later performance of course, and we’re ongoing doing these studies, trying to collect more data.
When we look at higher education or other things, such as occupational therapy, we’ve seen correlations with OSCE exams as they’ve gone through over and above GPA. So that’s like, is it telling the school something useful? We’ve seen that data repeated in physician assistant programs, and most recently, even in teachers education and business schools, we started to see as people go into co-ops and get their work placement ratings very similarly, we started to see that. We also saw, when we think about beyond residency programs that are starting to use Casper, when they start to use it, they saw a decrease overall in both professionalism incidents as well as formalized remediations they had to do in professionalism. And why that’s important is that we know we’re actually relatively good at remediating knowledge.
So if somebody has a knowledge gap, we tend to have good solutions and a good pathway for them to follow to get them better. When it comes to professionalism, we don’t have those same tools. We don’t have those same frameworks in place to remediate and support. We tend to rely a lot on external resources, and they tend to fail a little bit more. So for that reason, we know it’s adding something to the process of helping to find people who are incredibly intelligent but also strong in their personal and professional attributes.
How does Casper differ from the AAMC situational judgment test, which I think is called PREview? [32:21]Great. So the AAMC for medicine has come out with a situational judgment test called PREview. What’s interesting is that they’re completely different formats. So even though they’re both situational judgment tests, they actually are collecting different information on the same thing. So very much, I use the analogy of when we’re talking about admissions to medical school, you have GPA and MCAT. They’re both measuring academics but different pieces of it. And I think the same is true with PREview and Casper. So PREview is a fixed response SJT. So where you have a series of response options after you’ve seen a scenario. So very similar, you get a text-based scenario with PREview, and then you rate the effectiveness of different options. The limitation to that is that, of course, those are pre-selected options from a group of subject matter experts.
So we’ve got a fixed option. You mean multiple choice options? [33:18]Yes, multiple choice options. And you rank the effectiveness of each. Yes, absolutely. PREview is really measuring your knowledge of what is the right thing to do in that scenario. Do you know from when you look at the list, which is the right thing to do, which is an important data point. Casper on the other hand, is measuring what you would do in that scenario. So you would take this course of action and why would you take that course of action? And it allows a little bit more flexibility in which one you would personally pick. Because what I know about generating response options is that even if I were in a room and I have been with incredibly brilliant folks at a conference workshop or something where we’re all brainstorming, we will not come up with every answer.
Students and applicants to health science programs and higher education will blow your mind with the way that they think through these complex problems and the ideas that they will come out with. And they’re things that we would’ve never ever thought of. And to me, those are the superstars who can really be creative and agile in their thinking and come up with something really from the heart based on their own experiences and things like that. And that’s the part that I think we miss otherwise. So fundamentally, they’re both situational judgment tests, which is a very, very defensible way of measuring things, but the way that we’ve set up the questions and scenarios actually measure different and I think complimentary things.
I wonder if any medical schools are going to start requiring both of them because they are complimentary. [34:46]Yeah, I think they are. It’s interesting as schools start to adjust and shift moving away from just really MCAT or GPA or GRE or whatever the right assessment is that they might require or really a GPA heavy application to considering other things. We do know that some schools do require both of them.
You also offer an exam called DUET. And what is DUET and what does it test? How does it test it? I mean, we focused very much on Casper, so maybe how does it differ? [35:15]So what we did is wanted to really look at what are some of the things that applicants think are really important and programs think are really important, but maybe we don’t measure really well. And one of them that came to mind once we developed Casper was this concept of “fit.” Is this program the right fit for me? Is this applicant the right fit for our program? And there’s a lot of problems with the term fit. It is a little bit assuming that there’s a single fit that people have, and if you don’t look like this cookie cutter shape, then you are not the right fit for a program, which I don’t think is right. We know that the more diverse a class is, the better for both the class and the program outcomes and the profession as a whole.
So we wanted to really say, “Okay. How do we take this concept that we know is really important to people, but do it in a more defensible way?” Because right now, programs are measuring this concept of fit by really very arbitrary ways. When I interviewed folks saying, “How do you measure fit? What do you look for?” Their answer was, “Well, I know it when I see it.” And oftentimes that means they looked like me or sounded like me or did something. So what that does is perpetuates some of the biases that we have in the process or doesn’t allow everyone a fair shot at the application. So we really wanted to say, what else could we do? And so DUET has that in mind. It’s how do we take the values and priorities of an applicant and the values and priorities of a program and actually align them in a way that makes sense.
So the way that we do this is a forced choice or paired comparison selection process. So it was a very long process to create this. We have one version for residency and one version now for MD and DO with other versions coming out soon. So what we did is get a lot of stakeholders including applicants to these programs, current students, faculty, all sorts of different stakeholders to say, “What are the things that really matter when you’re talking about fit?” Now, this isn’t taking into account geography or all those other things that also matter. No silver bullets in this conversation. We don’t have the answer to everything, but incrementally, how do we add data? The analogy I use is to add more pixels to the picture to get a clear lens of who it is that are actually applying to our programs.
So what we know is that with DUET, we were able to get three categories with multiple characteristics. And I’ll just use the example of if you could have a program that promotes diversity or has a reputation for excellence, which would you want? And the answer is, well, I’d want both. So there’s no way to give applicants or programs just a list of these characteristics. So we have them go through this comparison process. I use my kids as the analogy where during COVID, like many people, they wanted a pet. If I just said to them, “Do you want a dog, a cat, a fish or a turtle?” They would say yes to all of them, and I would live in a zoo. So what I could have said, “Okay. Do you want a dog or a cat, a dog or a turtle, a cat or a turtle?” And have them pick between each of those pairings. And what I would end up with is a numerically prioritized list of these animals. We did end up getting two kittens, by the way.
So what we do is we do that similar process with values like promoting a culture of diversity and a reputation for excellence. But instead of just picking A over B, it’s how important is one over the other, because it’s not just a simple, ”I care about one and don’t care about the other.” It’s, you’re allowed to have that sliding scale of importance for those. And by doing this, we’re able to get a sense of who the applicant really is or what the applicant’s priorities are and how they align to the program. Now, it doesn’t mean if somebody aligns with you not perfectly that they’re not the right fit, that means A, you have an opportunity to support them when they get into your program, which is a really great piece of data. But also you have an ability, we’ve given programs a chance to actually look at what they say are their values and priorities and say, “Is that right? Is that what you want to be doing?” And that’s been a really great opportunity.
So the DUET assessment as a quick summary takes about 10 minutes to do. It’s an online examination. You do it on demand. So anytime you register for your Casper test, you can go and sign up and complete DUET. We just say do it within the two week window of when you’ve completed your Casper test so that the school has your data. Then once you’ve completed it once, that’s all you have to do. So an applicant completes it once and it’s sent to every program that they’re applying to that requires DUET, and that’s compared to the program profile. Now, the programs go through the DUET process too.
I was just going to ask you. [40:40]They take the 10 minutes and they go through, and what’s great about it is it’s not just the admissions director who’s doing it or the program director. We get a combination of faculty and current students to do the DUET, to actually create the profile. So it’s not just what do they aspire to be, but the students in the program are actually saying, “What is it actually?” And that’s where it’s great data for the program to have to say, “Is that actually what you want to be doing?” But also it really gives a much more authentic sense of this concept that we call fit. So we’ve started to use the term instead of fit, we call it applicant program alignment, which really-
Just heard that term for the first time, I think yesterday. [41:18]And it’s this term alignment that really to me is a sense of how aligned are you? Because you could choose and not be very aligned to a program, but go to them for a variety of different other reasons. They could be geographically the right school for you. There could be a lot of other things, but it’s knowing that going in so you can respond and reflect on that.
Now with alignment as the goal, will there be a lessening of diversity of opinion and thought? [42:36]Great question. So one, I would hope not, and the reason for that is this is alignment in a few very specific areas. So it’s-
So alignment of values to a certain extent. [42:57]Values and priorities, absolutely. One of the things, and part of the reason I love Caspe ris that it allows that diversity of thought and very different perceptions of what a right answer is. With DUET, you’re getting a sense of, is this person really looking for a research heavy institution and that’s not what you are, then maybe you can’t support them. I always say that most of us are not weeds. There are some people who can grow in any soil you put them in. I am not one of those people; I need the right soil in order to be my best self. So it’s about making sure, are we putting them in the right soil there or are you prepared for the fact that you’re bringing in somebody who requires a very different soil? And so you need to be prepared to support that person because that’s an intentional choice, which is great.
I also really want to emphasize though that these are two data points in what should be many data points about the selection process. So it shouldn’t be just that we get people with a 3.8 or higher GPA in, because to me that brings in only a very small proportion of who could be a great nurse or healthcare professional. When we think about adding these other data points, that’s what helps us broaden and get that more holistic impression because we want folks who have had different opportunities in life, maybe folks who have never volunteered or never been able to shadow clinically because they’ve been working or supporting families or doing other things that are incredibly important in our society.
So how do we make sure that across the whole spectrum of the admissions process, we’re not putting artificial barriers in place. So for example, in the case of shadowing, there’s now these virtual shadowing opportunities that folks can do. And to me, that is just one of the best things that I’ve seen come out of the COVID pandemic because what that means is that you don’t have to know a clinician already or be able to get connected. You can just sign up for one. And it doesn’t require you to necessarily go and do that when that might not be feasible for what else you have going on in your life.
So it’s one of the silver linings I’ve tried to find in the way that admissions was completely disrupted during the COVID pandemic. Absolutely. I think we’ve actually found some really strong silver linings in this process. I also think virtual interviews are one of them too, from an equity standpoint of having to pay to travel and things like that. So I think going back to your original question, there is this tension because it’s really hard when folks don’t align with our way of thinking, for example, because that means they’re not going to be easily agreeable with what we’re doing.
But I think actually that breeds a better health professional because all of your patients aren’t going to be aligned to the way you’re thinking. All of your other caregivers that you need to work with in order to create that amazing healthcare team are not going to align with your way of thinking. So how do you learn to have that flexibility, that ability here, and understand others that provide a way to start articulating the reasoning behind what you think, not just what you think as a way to start building that pattern of communication. It’s going to help not only in the school but beyond. So I mean, that’s my opinion on why I think it’s going to happen, but I hope that by adding these data points, we’re not going to be limiting our applicant pool that way.
Now, Casper, correct me if I’m wrong, started at one school about 12 years ago? [46:33]Yeah. The research on it started 20 years ago to date myself.
20 years ago. All right. But it actually was implemented initially at McMaster in 2010. [46:44]Yeah, 2010.
Do you see it spreading to other fields? I mean, professionalism is important, social skills are important in tons of areas, whether it’s law, business, engineering, whatever? [46:50]Absolutely. So we already have teacher education programs using our tool.
Social work? [47:15]Yeah. And we’ve had other schools in business and engineering express an interest because in many of those cases, to become an effective professional, to become an effective engineer, you need to communicate and collaborate. You’re not a single person. You’re on a team. So all of those things are becoming increasingly important. I have this vision that one day by having these assessments, unfortunately unless something is measured, we don’t put a lot of value on it when we think about admissions, as you probably know more than anybody else. So I hope that by assessing it, a defensible way that tries to be as equitable as possible and accessible as possible, that we’re actually building and changing the culture of the way that we think broadly is a society that grades and academics are incredibly important, but the way that we treat each other as human beings is even more important.
It’s something I always feel like I try to instill in my kids as I am teaching them about what’s important in life, it’s not always getting the perfect test score. It’s about are you being kind to your classmates? Are you having these, are you being inclusive? Are you doing those sorts of things? And I hope as a society, that’s actually the way that we’re moving. So we’re starting to see that momentum across higher education that people are saying. There’s actually difficulty with some of the existing standardized tests and measures that they use. So what else is there? What else is important in how we’re selecting our teachers or our engineers, our lawyers of tomorrow?
Do you see the Casper as a complement to the existing aptitude tests or as a potential substitute? [48:53]Well, I don’t think it’s a substitute-
Situational judgment test, I should say. [49:06]Yeah. Situational judgment test. I don’t know if it’s fully a substitute in that it’s not measuring the same thing. So if you are measuring-
I want to know that somebody can do the work required from a specific program. [49:17]Yeah. That’s a very, very different measure. Although I think that measure, the pendulum has swung so far that we’ve almost set our standards for that way too high. But I think when we talk about Casper, it’s that there’s a need to balance that we don’t just want academics. We also want to be looking at the whole person who’s applying. So it’s about having other measures that allow us to really capture not just how absolutely intelligent you are, but who you are as a human being, because those two things combined, that’s going to make you successful. And if you need support in one of those areas, then how can we support you?
This has been absolutely amazing. My last question is, what would you have liked me to ask you? [50:04]Maybe some of the misconceptions about Casper?
I just set myself up to answer a tricky question. So I think people believe that it’s just a barrier or a hoop to jump through. I want to convey that the reason we originally developed this is to make sure that as much of the whole applicant is actually included in the admissions process as possible. That you aren’t just your grades, you aren’t just a data point on an academic test that you’re much more than that. And we really, really wanted to make sure that that was included. So that’s probably one of the misconceptions that I really want to get away from. Also, to highlight that we have accommodations in MD/DO programs. We have a fee assistance process for the application process. We’re actually encouraging other groups to develop these FAP programs so that we can honor them in the application process. So we really want to make sure that that’s right.
I will actually add one more thing because it’s such a hot topic right now, is ChatGPT. Because the question is, can you gain Casper with ChatGPT? And we’ve done a lot of research on this trying to understand that, and we’re excited because two things, one, the majority of our scenarios are so complex in their videos, so it’s harder to input in the time allowed to ChatGPT. The other thing, and I want to highlight this to people who may be using them for personal statements or other things, is that ChatGPT really just generates a very generic answer. And unfortunately has no passion in it. It’s not necessarily up to date in terms of the societal or cultural things that are going on that may impact your beliefs or perspectives on things.
So there’s a word of caution and the fact that what we tend to know is that because we’ve tried to answer Casper with ChatGPT internally, and that you don’t actually always score that well because it gives a very generic answer; it can have lots of mistakes in it and things like that. And the problem is when those mistakes are there, and you only have a time limited thing, you may get your response submitted in a way that actually isn’t reflective of you. So the best advice I can give folks is find a quiet space, make sure nobody’s streaming videos, next door to you, but just really try and be yourself. Because it’s when you come across as who you are as an individual, who you are as a human, your own experiences, and you really express those through your responses, your why, you would take course of actions, those are the people that excel.
Where can listeners learn more about Casper and DUET for that matter? [53:25]So if you want to just go to our website, which is acuityinsights.app, you can learn more about the different assessments. You can see some example Casper scenarios as well, so that you can feel familiar with it. When you sign up to do the Casper test, you can take the full practice test. So go on, learn more and don’t be afraid to reach out with questions.
Relevant Links:
- Casper Test
- Duet
- The Computer-Based Assessment for Sampling Personal Characteristics (CASPer)
- Situational Judgement Test (SJT): Everything You Need to Know
- Med School Acceptance Calculator
Related Shows:
- MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require?
- Active Learning and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine
- What was it like to be an ER doctor at the beginning of COVID?
- An Inside Look at The Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine
- Deep Dive into Penn Perelman School of Medicine: An Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean for Admissions
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Exciting changes to the curriculum at the Medical College of Wisconsin. [Show Summary]Dr. Jane Machi, Assistant Dean, Admissions and Recruitment at the Medical College of Wisconsin, explores the MCW Fusion Curriculum – and completing med school in three years.
Interview with Dr. Jane Machi, Associate Dean for Admissions at the Medical College of Wisconsin. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 511th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to Accepted.com/medquiz. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment of your chances, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. And it’s all free. Again, use a calculator at Accepted.com/medquiz to obtain your free assessment and those tips that I just mentioned.
Our guest today is Dr. Jane Machi, Associate Dean of Admissions and Recruitment at the Medical College of Wisconsin. Dr. Machi earned her MD at the Medical College of Wisconsin and is a proud alum, as you’ll hear shortly. In her clinical practice she specializes in pediatric emergency medicine, in addition to serving at MCW as an associate professor and associate dean of admissions.
Dr. Machi, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:43]Thank you.
Can you give an overview of MCW’s MD program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:53]Sure. The Medical College of Wisconsin has a campus in Milwaukee, and we have two regional campuses, one in Central Wisconsin in a city called Wausau, and then we have a campus in Green Bay. We’re a private institution. Our Milwaukee campus has 50% of our students from Wisconsin and 50% are out of state. And then our regional campuses are really geared towards replenishing the physician shortage that everyone is facing. We’re not unique in that regard, and the regional campuses were opened with the hopes that the students that we train there when they complete the residencies will return to Wisconsin.
Predominantly, those campuses are geared towards Wisconsin residents, so close to 80% on each campus come from Wisconsin. I think one of the most unique things about our curriculum in particular, which our students rave about all the time, is our scholarly pathways. On the Milwaukee campus, they have opportunities to dive deep into a topic that they’re really passionate about. Some examples are we have an urban and community health pathway. We have a global health pathway. We have a patient safety and quality improvement pathway. We have research pathways. The students can choose.
They go through a series of orientations to each of the pathways, and they choose and they do a scholarly project typically in their first two years. And then on the regional campuses, they also participate in a scholarly pathway, but there is one, and that is the physician in the community pathway. I should say that our Milwaukee campus is a four-year campus, so our students spend four years with us. The regional campuses are three-year campuses, so you get out of medical school one year earlier. The target specialties for those campuses are really primary care and psychiatry oriented, and those are the types of students that we try and recruit.
We know very well that students may change their mind once they get into medical school. They may find another field that they’re more intrigued by and want to spend more time in. There is an option for them to do a fourth year if it’s necessary, depending on the specialty that they’ve chosen. That’s a little bit about MCW.
Does the curriculum differ other than length at the three different locations? It sounds like Milwaukee has more breadth of offerings and the two regional ones are, as you say, focused on primary care, which I assume are family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics. [4:24]And pediatrics.
So not OBGYN? [4:43]No.
Although we do have students from our regional campuses who do choose to go into OBGYN and many of them have done it in three years. Many of the specialties that you might think take four years to get into, we have had students match into residencies after the third year. A fourth year is not always necessary for all of our students. But some that require that additional year, like emergency medicine, there are special rotations that they have to do that they just can’t accomplish in three years. The curriculums are comparable. The regional campuses, it’s very accelerated, so there are no summer vacations.
On the Milwaukee campus, there are breaks and the regional campuses don’t have those breaks. That’s how we are able to get them to complete all their requirements in the three years. There are not as many electives; there’s no more time for electives. That’s really the big difference. We’re going to get to the curriculum in a minute, but the initial first two years, they’re done together with our Milwaukee students. The regional campuses participate in the same courses. They’re just doing it in their geographic areas.
They have their own Sim labs, their own anatomy labs, their own resources on each of the campuses, and they do their rotations in their regional geographic regions. The Green Bay students will stay in that area, and the Central Wisconsin students actually will spend time in hospitals that are in all different rural areas in that central part of the state.
Is there a focus on rural medicine in your region? [6:30]There is by virtue of their locations. A predominant shortage of our physicians in Wisconsin are those that practice in rural areas. One of our focuses is that we would like our students to be interested in rural medicine and want to return to a rural community to practice to fulfill those needs in our underserved rural areas.
What is the Discovery Curriculum that I was reading about in preparing for our call? Both the three- and the four-year options? The first two years are the same, right? What are the first two years? [7:03]No. I will say that the Discovery Curriculum will be replaced by the MCW Fusion Curriculum starting July of 2023. We’re about to start a different curriculum.
We’re really excited about it. It’s been a lot of hard work. There are many, many people that have been involved in developing this curriculum. Rather than having year one, year two, year three, year four, it’s actually a three-phased curriculum, which I think many medical schools have gone to, where you spend… It’s no longer two years of traditionally what we think of basic science. That’s been decreased in its amount of time. On the Milwaukee campus, they’ll spend 18 months doing their early clinical exposures. There are doctoring threads, learning communities. The scholarly pathways will not go away.
That’s the one thing from the Discovery Curriculum that is coming intact to the MCW Fusion Curriculum. The regional campuses will do it in a shorter amount of time because they don’t have summer vacation. They will get it all done in a briefer time. Phase two is basically what we traditionally think of as the core clerkships, and that’ll be 12 months. And rather than spending block times in specific rotations, they’ll be divided into areas like inpatient medicine, outpatient medicine, and then the surgical specialties, and they’ll spend a year doing those. And then the third phase is really sort of the self-discovery phase where students can really individualize their education.
If you want to be a surgeon, you can do a lot of different surgical things and rotations, electives, and focus that fourth year or that phase three… See, I’m in the fourth year. Phase three.
I have a whole new language to learn. In phase three, it’s really individualized and we’re really wanting to prepare our students to become really good residents, have them be prepared to start their intern year when they graduate.
That was a wonderful introduction. Let’s turn to the application. What is the secondary like? Does MCW screen before sending out secondary? I guess that should be the first question. Do you screen before sending out secondaries? [9:43]The only real screening that we do is basically for basic eligibility criteria. Making sure that their undergraduate credits are coming from either a regionally accredited US or Canadian medical school. That’s the biggest screening that we do. And then if you meet the eligibility criteria, you’re sent a secondary application and given that opportunity to fill it out.
What do you hope to glean from the secondary that you don’t get from the primary? [10:22]I think one of the big things that I think the secondary allows us to learn about the applicant is how they see themselves at MCW. Did they do their homework? Did they look on the web? Are there certain things within our curriculum that they’re incredibly interested in? How do they see MCW preparing them for the future? Everybody tries to hesitate to use the word fit, so I’m going to say align. Do they align with MCW’s missions? Can they see themselves being a student at our school? That goes for all of our campuses.
https://youtu.be/CSPZF9HNdFMIt seems like one of your big missions is supplying physicians specifically in Wisconsin. Are ties to the state really important for applicants to MCW? [11:06]Only on the regional campuses is that a specific thing that our goal is to have predominantly Wisconsin residents on those campuses. Like I mentioned before, the Milwaukee campus is 50% Wisconsin. That is where we cap it. Ties to Wisconsin aren’t necessarily something that we look at and identify and pluck them out of the pool other than, like I said, the regional campuses.
But it is about alignment, if you will, with mission, I guess, your strength and your approach to medical education. Is that correct? [11:49]Yeah, yeah. It gives us an opportunity to get to know them a little bit better. I know applicants spend… There’s a lot of essay questions that they have to fill out on every secondary that they’re invited to fill out and given that opportunity. But I think it allows us to see, do we see them as a student in our school? Is Milwaukee the right place for them? Is Green Bay the right place for them? Is Wausau the right place for them?
Do you ever recommend to a student, “I think you’d belong better at that campus than the campus you applied to,” or not so much? [12:29]No, we don’t do that. When the students apply, they rank which campus is their number one, number two, number three, whatever. We have three campuses, so they get up to three choices. We select students based on their choice. If they’re a Milwaukee number one, they’re looked at for the Milwaukee campus. If they are a regional campus number one, they’re looked at first for the regional campuses. Not everybody gets to interview.
Occasionally, we have students who rank a regional campus number two, and that may be where they are invited. Sometimes I think that we see that they are really in good alignment for what those campuses offer, and so we give them an invitation to interview on our regional campuses.
What is the role of the Casper in your evaluation process? [13:26]We use Casper as one data point amongst all of the many. It’s not something that we use to screen in, screen out. It is looked at as a non-cognitive variable amongst many other variables in our screening process, in our interview process, and then in that final decision. Sometimes things come out in the interview and the admissions committee will have a discussion about, well, their Casper score was whatever it is. That seems to be more who they really are. Sometimes it may influence a decision, but we don’t use it to…
You don’t use it for screening? [14:12]No, no, we don’t.
You don’t screen for interviews based on the Casper? [14:17]Not solely based on a Casper score. No. Not solely based on that. If they have a really low Casperscore, the admissions committee will… They screen every application of everybody that we invite to interview. They will see all of the scores and it’s a piece of data that they use. Does the writing match? If they have a really low Casper score, does it come through in some of their explanations of how certain experiences influence them? I’ve seen it in applications where it does align with how they write and how they think and how they’re portraying themselves. Many times it doesn’t. We don’t use it in any algorithmic, mathematical, magical equation.
You don’t use it in a vacuum either, it doesn’t sound like. [15:15]No, no. Like I said, it is just one piece of information amongst all that other information.That seems to be growing.
You have the primary, the secondary, the Casper, even before you get to the interview. What is a common mistake, and I’m not talking about typos now, that applicants make in approaching the primary and/or secondary application? [15:30]I think my pet peeve when I read applications, and I’ve been doing this for many, many years, one of the things that I notice is they will just list their shadowing hours. I did 65 hours of shadowing, and they don’t talk about it. We’re not a school that counts hours to give credit for a certain experience. To me, and it is one piece of advice I give to anybody that approaches me and wants to talk about how to apply to medical school, is to talk about what those experiences meant to you.
How did it shape you in some way? Are you going to use what you observed in your practice? What did you learn from the physicians? Those sorts of things. I’m always disappointed when I see many, many hours spent and no explanation. I don’t know how to interpret that. That to me is I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see.
I think that’s very valuable feedback. [16:48]Typos are always a big thing. I know you didn’t want to talk about typos, but that is a high stakes application. If you can’t take the time to make sure there are zero typos, one starts to wonder about, is it your attention to detail? Did you really care about it? How bad do you really want this? Especially if there’s many. You can forgive one or two, but I’ve seen applications that have had several on both the primary and the secondary. You start to wonder about the person.
I should probably not make it “except for typos,” but I think everybody, all medical school applicants know they shouldn’t have typos in their application, whether they succeed or don’t succeed. They may not realize the part about listing hours like a badge of pride… I still appreciate the point about it. They may not realize though that listing hours like a badge of pride is not really what you want. You want to see some insight into that experience, what did you get out of it. [17:27]I think the hours are important. It does tell us how much of themselves they invested and what they’re choosing to do. The admissions committee is quite savvy. They know who’s box checking. I think the number of hours is that cue. If you don’t write anything about the experience other than what it was about, I think it indicates perhaps, were they just trying to beef up their application in some way, whatever the experience is? Any of the experiences, they should be reflecting and thinking, what competency is this achieving for me? What have I gained? What am I getting out of it? Applicants should focus on things that they’re passionate about. We’re hoping they’re passionate about medicine.
What makes for a great interview? [19:02]I think what makes for a great interview is someone who’s actually authentic and true to themselves. I think the overly rehearsed, sometimes almost canned answers are a turnoff. I mean, you need to be prepared and you need to think about the questions. There’s certainly many places where students can get access to all kinds of questions that potentially they may be asked, but we’re looking for honesty, sincerity, and a good person. We have students do some of our interviews.
One of the things we ask them to consider is, would you want them to be a student in school with you? Do you want them to be your colleague? Being yourself is really important, but also preparing and knowing where you’re interviewing.
What is the interview day like? Is it in person at this point, or is it virtual like you and I are talking now? [19:57]We’re currently doing our interviews virtually on all of our campuses. We haven’t made any final decisions as to how we’re going to do this next academic year. We’re having discussions about what’s best. There’s pros and cons to both sides. Our regional campuses, they’re in smaller cities. If you’ve never been to Green Bay or Wausau, how do you know? Should you get to see this school that you’re going to attend? Milwaukee is the same way. If you’ve never been to the Midwest or to Milwaukee, getting to see the school, the campus, meeting people, there are a lot of benefits to having it in person, but we also see the other side.
It’s a high cost. We’re having on the Milwaukee campus applicants coming from all over the United States, Canada, and other countries. That’s a huge cost to the applicants. Our interviewers, it’s convenient for them to be virtual as well. They’re not having to travel between clinics and trying to get to the interview on time. It’s a lot easier for them to just log in from their office wherever they are, in whatever hospital. It does make it easy on both sides, but we haven’t made any final decisions about what we’re going to do next cycle.
Just very recently, for the first time since COVID, I talked to a med school admissions director who said that they are going in person. [21:28]Yeah, I think it depends. If you’re an in-state university and you are only recruiting from your state, the travel time isn’t that far. But for a school like ours where we have applicants coming, like I said, from all over, it’s harder and it’s costly.
MSAR says that the Medical College of Wisconsin received around 11,000 applications, I guess last cycle or the cycle before. [22:03]That’s the COVID cycle. We were in that dumpster fire altogether, where we’re like, “Where are these people coming from?” Yeah, we all lived in that.
How do you cut down from 11,000 to around 800? That’s less than 10%, and then to a class of 265 students. I assume half of that are Milwaukee and the other half are the other two campuses, right? [22:24]Yeah. On the Milwaukee campus, we have 220 students, because MSAR doesn’t… We can’t separate our campuses, so it’s one number. The 265 is our three campuses together. Milwaukee is 220 and we interview 650, 700. Most everybody applies to the Milwaukee campus regardless. And then on the regional campuses, certainly the numbers are smaller, the class sizes are much smaller. Central Wisconsin is about 20 and Green Bay is about 25. That’s another factor that applicants should consider is, do they see themselves thriving and flourishing in a smaller setting, in that smaller group?
The committee is one of the hardest committees at work at the Medical College of Wisconsin. They spend an inordinate number of hours screening. Like I said, everybody that gets an invite has been screened from page one to page whatever and given either yes, bring them in for an interview, no, not at this time. We have to magically come to 50 on the Milwaukee campus. It has to be magic. There is this mathematical magic that happens somehow. And then the same for the regional campuses, really selecting and looking really hard at our pool of Wisconsin residents.
Lots of meetings. Lots of screening. We probably interview about 100 or so for each of the regional campuses to get to those class sizes, depending on the campus. Somewhere 90 to 100 for each of those. That’s where I think you get to the 800 interviews because they added all up.
Going back to the different curricula at the different campuses, is the three-year option not available in Milwaukee? [24:38]No, it’s not available.
It’s only available at the… [24:49]At the regional campuses.
https://youtu.be/5jX8OZt-Gq4What makes an applicant jump off the page for you in a positive way? [25:04]I think one of the things, at least for me, is I peruse just through the experiences is some of the breadth and the depth. What have they done? If I’m reading their personal statement, do I get the sense that they’re truly passionate about medicine, not just helping people, but about medicine in specific? Can they communicate that? Looking at their road traveled, all of the other attributes that they bring to the table, those are the sorts of things that I tend to pay attention to. How have they prepared themselves? Is this really the career for them and have they really thought it through?
I think that’s one of the common things at the end of the day when the committee is saying yay or nay is a lot of it is understanding of medicine and do they really know what they’re getting into and do they understand and have they exposed themselves. I think that’s becoming more and more important as healthcare is changing. Do they understand interprofessional teams and how to work with all of the different arms, the nurses, the care partners, the pharmacists, the dieticians, the families for that matter? Can they see themselves being a part of that?
Because we’re not solo in a vacuum. If that’s what they think, then maybe becoming a physician isn’t for them because it is a collaborative affair for sure.
One of the questions I get constantly from applicants is, should I send an update letter? Should I send a letter of intent? And that sometimes varies from different schools at different points in the application process. What is your view? What is the process at the Medical College of Wisconsin? [26:58]The Medical College of Wisconsin accepts updates at any time. The applicant is welcome to go into our information portal and upload their information at any time. We’re not quite there yet because we’re still interviewing. But when we start to look at our wait list and we start to make decisions, because we don’t rank our wait list, as we build a diverse and all those sorts of things class and have a well-rounded group of students, sometimes those updates help us understand what have they been doing since they interviewed?
That application, the primary, one gets filled out so early that some things may have changed entirely. They may have said, “Yep, I’m going to be a CNA, and then that job didn’t pan out, but I ended up being an EMT,” or whatever their choice is. Sometimes those things change and letting us know, or they want to let us know why the Medical College of Wisconsin is in their top tier of schools to attend. I think it’s important. We allow them to upload at any time.
When do you stop sending out invitations? [28:24]When all the interview days are full, and sometimes that’s the week before the last interview day. We continually invite people. As the interview cycle goes on, applicants are starting to get… If they’ve interviewed in more than one school or they got into their dream school, they may decline our interview, even though they had scheduled one. That opens up a slot for somebody else. We just continue to run through until we get to the very last interview day. This year we’re interviewing through mid-March. On the Milwaukee campus, we have five interview days left, I believe. The regional campuses still each have a handful as well. So the Thanksgiving thing, I don’t know about that.
It’s open until the interview day is full and remains full. If someone drops out the week before, we’re going to try and find somebody to put in that slot. We certainly want to fill each interview day. We don’t want to leave slots empty for sure. I don’t know about that.
How do you view prerequisites taken at community college or two year colleges? [30:09]I think we view them like any other prerequisite. Most applicants who attend a community college will eventually transfer to a four-year university. It’s not so much the performance in the community college years, it’s that transition to a four-year university. We have many, many students who have attended community college. Sometimes that’s the way they get started in college because financially it makes the most sense for a lot of our applicants, unless it’s a technical college, something like that, that really isn’t focused, but getting prerequisites at the community college…
How do you view shadowing and virtual shadowing? Do you think it’s important that applicants shadow? And then what about virtual shadowing? [31:03]I think it’s important to learn from as many different physicians as you can and not be so narrow that you’re just with one specialty, because there are so many. As physicians, we all practice in a different way. I’m a pediatric emergency medicine physician, so I see kids and their families in the highest stressful environment, whereas another specialty may not be like that to that degree and to get that understanding that we’re not all the same. Where do you see yourself fitting in? What intrigues you and what interests you? I think we’ve managed the virtual shadowing, particularly since the advent of the pandemic.
We’re still seeing those effects on our applications and probably will for the next year or so. As hospitals have opened up and clinics have opened up, more and more of our applicants now are having the opportunities to do in-person shadowing. But we understand. Again, it’s about what did you learn and how did it impact you, no matter what the opportunity was. How is it shaping you as a future professional in medicine? I think it took us a little bit to adjust to what it all meant. We didn’t really understand. The committee didn’t understand.
We have a very fantastic recruiter who spent time orienting the faculty to all these different web shadowing types of platforms and what each offers and what did they actually get out of it, that sort of thing. We could understand a little bit more when we saw a certain shadowing website what they actually were getting out of it. I think we’ve adjusted pretty well.
But I’m going to guess that if in-person shadowing is an option, you would prefer it to virtual? [31:03]I would, and I would think an applicant would prefer it as well to be up close and personal and be able to ask questions and actually see the patient in live time. It’s nice that things have opened up. It’s given that opportunity once again for students to come and see what it’s like and what our jobs are like. You get to see all of the other people that we work with, the team, not just hearing how we work through a case problem, although that’s important, but you get to see the interactions and really understand what the day is like. Because I think that’s what shadowing is for, is to get a taste of what the specialty is, but learning from the physician what their day is like and why did they pick it.
I think sometimes in those virtual shadowing, sometimes there’s not always those opportunities because they’re attended by so many to actually get specific questions answered. I think relationships get built. I’ve become a mentor to students who were pursuing medicine just by virtue of them emailing me and saying, “Can I shadow you?” And then we just developed a relationship. I think there are those opportunities to gain insight from someone and develop a mentoring relationship, which is really important.
Listener question. Now, you are a physician obviously. If you are a med student today planning to apply in 2023, this upcoming cycle or the cycle following it, what is the one thing you would be doing to prepare yourself for medical school? [34:40]I think I’m going to sound like a broken record. I really think that it’s important to get exposed to as much of healthcare as you can. I think that’s really important. Take care of patients. See if that’s something you can do. I think those clinical experiences, whether it’s being a medical assistant, CNA, an EMT, where you’re actually having to show compassion and empathy for someone in their most vulnerable states, can you see yourself doing that and communicating with people in that regard? I think it can be very soul telling that if you can’t find that within yourself, then maybe medicine isn’t the right career for you, that you should think about something else.
I would say gain as much exposure as you can and as your schedule allows. Leadership is incredibly important. I certainly was not a leader. When I was an undergraduate, I didn’t do those things. But I think as physicians, we’re leaders of a team. Having those qualities and being able to lead a group, a club, or something at your college or your university is I think really important. Those are my two things, I think. There’s probably a lot more that I would say to do. I think most of all is doing something you’re really passionate about. Again, not the box checking and doing things that you think the medical school is looking for, because that’s not going to better you as a person.
Really be passionate about the choices you’re making. It says a lot. When you write about it, it’s going to shine through, as opposed to, “I just did this because they wanted me to. I didn’t get anything out of it, or it’s not something I see myself doing long-term.” It’ll come through in the communication.
I remember one of my first clients, my first med school clients, he got in and he called me afterwards and he said, “We wrote in one essay about my butterfly collecting. That was the one thing that every school that I interviewed at asked me about.” [36:54]Yeah, and that’s important too, as burnout is such a hot topic, well-being. In the MCW Fusion Curriculum, there’s a huge focus on well-being and career development. Med school is very stressful. How do you maintain your self-health and take care of yourself? It’s really important. To have those habits or those hobbies, it’s really important because it’s what brings you joy, and it’ll come through. I often will say, what do you do outside of science and medicine?
Because sometimes people just really haven’t done much else because they’ve been so focused on those sorts of things. But how are you going to handle the stresses if you don’t have an outlet in some way, shape or form, whatever it is?
What would you have liked me to ask you? [38:05]What would I have liked you to ask me? I think most everything you asked, but I think from myself and personally, because I am an alum of the Medical College of Wisconsin, I’m very proud to be an alum of the Medical College of Wisconsin, I think one of the biggest things that I have seen over the years and since I was a medical student is really, and this is going to sort of sound cliche, but I really mean it, it’s collaborative. It’s friendly. The faculty really care about our students and wanting them to be successful. We’re in their corners. We want to build relationships with them.
I gained so many mentors when I was in medical school just by the relationships I formed when I was on my clerkships or doing other rotations. It is really that environment that really attracted me. I was an older student, and so my outlook on life was maybe a little bit different than somebody who was fresh out of college. I wanted to be in a place where I felt like I was going to fit in and not be isolated. I wanted to be accepted. The medical college was a great place, and I’m just proud to be an alum. I could gush, but I’ll stop about that.
Relevant Links:
- Medical College of Wisconsin Admissions
- Are You Ready? Med School Admissions Quiz
Related Shows:
- The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
- MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require? [Episode 499]
- Active Learn and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine [Episode 494]
- What was it like to be an ER doctor at the beginning of COVID? [Episode 493]
- How To Get Accepted To Washington University School Of Medicine in St. Louis [Episode 485]
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Drawing on her knowledge as the Director of Masters Admissions at Carnegie Mellon Tepper School of Business, Kari Calvario shares everything students should know about CMU Temper’s MS in Business Analytics program. [Show Summary]Welcome to the 510th episode of Admission Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me.
Before we dive into today’s episode, I want to mention a resource at Accepted that can help you prepare your statement of purpose to masters programs in business analytics and data science. Download Five Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Grad School Statement of Purpose to learn how to avoid the five most common mistakes we see in graduate school statements of purpose, as well as how to write a statement of purpose that makes your story memorable and highlights your qualifications for your target programs.
Our guest today is Kari Calvario. She is the Director of Masters Admissions at Carnegie Mellon Tepper School of Business. She earned her bachelor’s in English literature and a masters in education. She joined Tepper in 2014 and has been there ever since. [Show Notes]Thank you for having me. I’m excited to speak with you.
We’re going to focus on the masters in business analytics programs at CMU Tepper. What are they? Can you provide an overview of both the full-time in-person option and the part-time online option? [2:02]Yeah, happy to. Thanks for that first question. The Tepper School, as any school, is always looking to diversify. We’re looking to grow. Our MBA program has been our flagship program, but I think one of the really great things about Tepper is we’re always looking to innovate. We’re always looking for what’s relevant. With lots of conversations with employers, with alums, we found that there was this need for professionals who have not only advanced analytical skills, but then the ability to combine that with a business sense and be able to communicate those business needs, to be able to convince about business needs. The Master of Science in Business Analytics program was initially born as our part-time online version, which still exists to this day, but it was born out of that need of wanting to provide students with analytical skills and be able to combine it with the leadership and business skills that they would need. As that program continued to grow over the last several years, it evolved and kind of branched also into our full-time MS Business Analytics program. Now we carry both of them. They are both really successful programs. It started with this need several years ago after the feedback that we got from employers, industry professionals, alums, and has now grown into two really successful programs.
Is AI becoming a more important part in the curriculum? I find it fascinating that it’s a program that really seems to combine left brain, right brain, that you’re highly statistical and quantitative, but it also is very much about communications. With all the publicity about ChatGPT, AI, et cetera, is it becoming a more important part of the program? [3:39]I don’t know that it’s a more important part, but certainly it’s an integral part of it. We wouldn’t be CMU if it wasn’t something that was a part of our program. I think the lens that our curriculum is taught from even something like a communication class is all taught from this analytical lens, which of course, lends itself to AI, to machine learning. When we talk about this intelligent future, this background that I have, we talk about data informed, but human decisions. Data can’t make decisions, but it’s such an important part of it.
It’s data informed, but there’s the human part of it. AI, you just mentioned, it’s this really unique combination of AI and the improvements that we can make, but we still need the human piece of it. And that’s what I think our program is really good at.
What distinguishes CMU Tepper’s Master in Business Analytics program from other BA programs, and what do the two programs, online and offline, have in common? [4:51]Well, you asked to distinguish first, so I’ll go with that first. I think what sets our program apart is that our parent school is the Tepper School of Business. This is something that we’ve been at the forefront of — analytical decision-making. It’s been the type of curriculum that we have. That we’re not a case-based school. Cases have a place for sure, but we are founded in making decisions based on data. When the business analytics program was formed, it was formed under that parent kind of guidance, I guess for lack of a better term. We’ve done this before.
Specifically when we first started with the online program, our part-time online MBA has existed for years and years and has consistently ranked in the top MBA program. From a delivery of the program, from a content, from the curriculum being a sister program at the Tepper School with the MBA program, that’s I think what sets it apart is this business analytics has become this hot topic and very well it should, but it’s something that has existed at the Tepper School and in the MBA curriculum for quite some time.
We’ve formalized that and, of course, have evolved at or else why would we have a different program than the MBA, but the concepts, the structure, the faculty who are teaching in the program, that’s all been really well established just at the Tepper School in general.
That was what distinguishes – what do the two programs have in common. [6:38]What did they have in common is just that, it’s the exact same curriculum. A question that I get a lot in admissions is, “Will my diploma say part-time? Will my diploma say online?” The diploma says Carnegie Mellon Tepper School Master of Science in Business Analytics, because the graduation requirements are the same, the faculty teaching in the full-time on campus program are the exact same faculty teaching in the part-time program. The only difference is in the delivery of the program and the time it takes to complete it. Because of that, there’s no differences between the two. It’s an MSBA from Tepper no matter how you earn it.
No asterisks. [7:21]No asterisks. Nope.
What are some of the problems or projects that MSBA students have tackled? Anything particularly memorable? [7:26]Yeah, and it’s hard to go in a single conversation, Linda, without saying COVID. It’s the world we all live in. Of course, I’m going to go there. But from a business school perspective and from a business analytics perspective, our students have had some really unique opportunities to do — we call them capstone projects or hands-on experiential learning — those sorts of things, that they’ve been able to work towards a specific goal.
Our students have worked with Campbell Soup before and forecasting when everybody went home or was sent home for two weeks in March of 2020, but then it turned into this long-term forecasting, how many people are really having soup over their lunch break anymore, when really it was a throw it in your lunchbox, bring it to work. But then suddenly these issues start. Our students are working on those hands-on trying to forecast, okay, some folks are returning to work, some are in this hybrid environment, how do we forecast the needs and the supply? We’re working with bigger, larger organizations, but also smaller private organizations.
Blood donors dropped during COVID, and so working with private organizations to stabilize just even something like blood donors and to get a predictable model of how do we stabilize getting our donorship back. It’s these wide-ranging projects, but they’ve been some really unique opportunities to be part of some really good things of helping companies get through this pandemic and things like that. They’ve had some really hands-on experiences that are really fascinating.
Now, you have the residential component. It’s a nine-month program, right? And then you have the part-time online program. Is there a residential component to the online program, and do the two programs ever meet? [9:11]Just from the nature of our building, the Tepper Quad is the home of the Tepper School of Business. There’s certainly an opportunity, but there’s no official overlap as in everybody’s all together for this one reason or not. For the 18 months online program, there is no required on-campus component. You can do the entire program online. Certainly though, campus is always open. There are opportunities. We call them immersion weekends. There’s not an academic component to it, but for certain times throughout the year, it aligns with the curriculum. There are these immersion weekends where online students can come to campus.
They spend Thursday night through Sunday morning. They might be meeting with their career counselor. They might be doing a leadership workshop. They might be doing some networking. There’s some really unique opportunities to come to campus, but not every student. We have some international students who maybe can’t travel, so there is no required academic component to those weekends, but they do have the opportunity to come here, be with their classmates. They’re with their classmates online Monday through Thursday, but really the opportunity to be in the same room together. There is that opportunity for the online program.
Are the classes for the online program on the weekend or evenings, or is it asynchronous, synchronous? [10:42]Both. Yeah, so both. We’re a good blend. We are both synchronous and asynchronous. I’d say it’s probably about 80/20 of synchronous. It’s mostly synchronous. Classes are Monday through Thursday. No Tepper student ever has classes on a Friday, but Fridays tend to be their busiest day. It’s group work. It’s recruiting. It’s catching up. But classes are in the evenings, Monday through Thursday. There are typically two sections offered.
Usually it’s like a 6:00 to 8:00 and then 8:00 to 10:00. It’s the exact same class, but two different sections. They have the ability to go to those classes, and it roughly shakes out to an East Coast time and a West Coast time, but you don’t have to…
https://youtu.be/lyqg8F_-5LgThat’s what I was thinking. [11:32]You don’t have to live in Pittsburgh to go to the 8:00 time zone if it’s better for work. What we’ve done is most of the students in our online program are working professionals. Maybe they have a stable work schedule. Some might be traveling. Some might have later hours. If they’re logging into a class, we want it to be worth their while, right? We want them to have interaction with their professor. We want them to interact with their teammates.
There’s going to be projects. They’re not logging into a live class and taking a final or something like that. The asynchronous classes, which they know in advance, can watch this video, react to the prompt, or things like that. If they’re coming to the synchronous classes, they’re really beneficial.
What kind of academic background are you looking for in applicants to these programs? [12:18]Yeah, that’s a great question, and it’s another question that ‘s probably my second most asked question.
It’s a very frequently asked question. [12:32]As I mentioned, we’re an analytical program. We’re a quantitative program. It’s kind of like a double-edged sword where we celebrate that and we’re really proud. We’re really proud of the curriculum we have. But then I think we kind of push back a little bit that it doesn’t mean one size doesn’t fit all. One undergrad major, one course preparation. What we do look for though is aptitude. We want you to be able to come into our program to be academically successful. You’re going to have quantitative classes. You’re going to have some programming classes. You’re going to have these analytical classes.
Have you seen programming before? It doesn’t mean you have to be this expert coder in R and Python, but are you familiar with it? Have you maybe taken some Coursera courses? There are backgrounds, I think, that naturally fit. A lot of engineers are naturally attracted to Tepper. Maybe it’s software engineers, computer scientists, but it’s more about the types of classes that you’ve taken. Have you seen some more math classes? Have you seen some programming courses? It doesn’t mean you had to have majored in it, but just so that you can transition into… Your very first semester, you’re taking probability and statistics, which uses R.
It’s more about the aptitude. We dig really deeply into applications. Yes, you’re an economics major, but I’m going to dig into your transcript and see what classes have you taken. What have you done in your work? Do you have any certifications? Is there anything or what is there that lets me think, yeah, you can come here and you can be successful in the program knowing there’s resources and there’s always going to be help, but what’s the aptitude that you have? Sure, experience with technical skills, but it’s not a requirement.
I was a political science major undergrad, and I took the minimum math that I had to take. If I were to wake up one morning, and I was a lot younger, and I decided I wanted to go get a masters in business analytics, would you advise me to take some statistical classes, some quantitative classes, and probably some programming classes, either at my local community college or extension or Coursera or something like that? [14:17]Right, yeah. Exactly right. Spoken from an English major when you introduced me. I took the minimum to graduate and moved out of that school. What I would say is you don’t have to send me a transcript from Carnegie Mellon that says you got an A. There are other ways to show it, but I’d say, “Hey, here’s what you’re going to see in your first semester. Here’s what you’re going to see in your first year. Let’s talk about some things that can prepare you for that.” It’s more of a conversation. Folks are always welcome to give our office a call. We can’t go through an application and say, “This will get you in. This will not get you in.”
You understand that. But we can say, “Hey, I would really love to see you. Go take an online computer science course and get a little more familiar with these basic programming languages,” or go out at a calc course or a linear algebra course or something like that, or write me an optional essay in your application that says, “Hey, I don’t have these formal classes. I was a political science major, but here’s what I’ve been doing in my work since. I’m using Tableau. I’m doing these different things. I’m building these really complex reports in work. I’m self-taught, but I’ve got the skillset.”
I wouldn’t know that if you didn’t put it in your optional essay. But once I read it, that’ll prepare you sometimes even better than a class that you took 10 years ago.
What about experience? We’ve talked about academic background. What about experiential background? It seems like the online program is a little bit more geared towards those people with full-time work experience, and the full-time program, the in residence program, is more of a pre-experience program. Could you dive into that a little bit? [16:00]Sure, and you’re exactly right, Linda. Again, it’s kind of the evolution of the program. When we began, and it’s our part-time online program and it has really grown year to year, we’ve got about 50 students in it each year, which is what I think is a really healthy number, a lot of those folks see the need for business analytics in their current company and they want to use the degree to move on to more senior roles, or maybe making an industry shift, but they want to take the skill set and use it to move into become that subject matter expert, become the analytics expert in their company, get that promotion, reach that next senior level.
When the full-time program launched and it’s more pre-professional, that was feedback from employers saying, “Okay, here’s kind of the types of jobs,” and perhaps we’ll talk about that, but the types of jobs we see are more for folks who are just going to start out in the industry. They’re pre-professional. Maybe you’ve had a couple analytics internships, or you’ve got a year or two as a data analyst or something like that. But given the curriculum and the recruiters that we are talking to are saying, yeah, you’re going to be highly employable, but it’s not going to be that I’m already established at this company and I just want to move into a more senior position.
It’s going to be, I’m just starting out in the industry. I know I’ve got this really, really desired skillset, and that’s going to help me really break into this new industry.
For the pre-professional program, do you like to see relevant internships? [17:43]I do. Yeah, I do. I think it’s natural, right? Whether it’s an internship in banking… Are we looking for quants? Are we looking for data analysts? Not specifically. We’ve seen folks who’ve had internships in investment banking. One of my favorite applicants interned at Disney but was doing some analytical work at Disney. I think it can go across industries, but versus me, to keep using myself as an example, I interned at a library. I did nothing with analytics. I loved it, but I probably don’t have the relevant internship experience to be looking at my time at my local library.
While we’re not picky or we’re not just kind of like, well, you weren’t working at a SaaS company, or you weren’t doing something like that, it’s not that. It’s more of, oh, that seemed like it was really impactful, or you returned for two summers. You interned the summer of your junior year. You returned the next year. That obviously means that your performance was well received. That’s a good indicator of potentially how you recruit and how you interview. There’s different ways to do it, but seeing those relevant internships helps.
Now, I’m going to guess that occasionally a student struggles in the MSBA program, right? Do you know why they struggle? Is there any pattern that would help you I guess not admit people who struggle? [19:07]Yeah, yeah, that’s a completely fair question. It’s a reality, and we have support. We have our academic office, our program office. I think there’s a couple different things. For our part-timers is time and the time commitment. It’s an extra 20 hours a week on top of most likely your full-time job, maybe a family, all sorts of things. I think it’s just being realistic. It’s not about intelligence. The folks that are applying to our program are all super, super bright, but maybe they’re not used to spending 20 additional hours. When you’re an undergrad and that’s your whole world, maybe that’s what you can devote to it.
But when you’re juggling different real adult experiences, to add on 20 additional hours. I think it’s our job in admissions, whether it’s the admissions interview, whether it’s just the materials, whether it’s just phone calls I have with somebody who’s interested in the program to say, “Hey, you’re going to get a lot of support here and you’re really bright, but I need you to know too, you’re going to have to put in some work. It’s not a light program. Like we talked about, you’re here part-time, you see online. It’s a lot of work, but it’s 18 months and then you’ve done it and you’ve got the degree and you’ve moved on.”
I think it’s just being really intentional. We try in our office to be really authentic and to say, “Hey, we really want you to be a part of our program. Let’s have a conversation. But I’m going to be honest with you, you’re going to have to put in some work to be successful in this program.” The full-time classes, we’re recruiting or doing admissions right now for the second cohort. From a Tepper standpoint, less data, but the sentiment remains the same of this is the big leagues. This is a masters program. You can do really well in an undergrad, but you’re going into a masters program now and you are living on your own and doing this sorts of things.
I think, again, it’s being upfront with candidates, whether on our website, whether in one-on-one conversations, of saying like, “We are going to support you to the nth degree, and we need to see some on your end too.”
Let’s move into the admissions realm, okay? Can you describe the application process for the MSBA? [21:39]Yeah, I sure can, and it’s exactly the same. I’ve talked a little bit of like, well, for online, it’s this. For full-time, it’s this. Same application. You literally just select which program that you’re applying for. It’s a pretty standard application process, Linda. It only takes about 30 minutes from start to finish. I always joke that the reason I know that is I made my little sister submit an application and time it. Like any good big sister, I was like, “Hey, I need a neutral party to tell me what are the roadblocks in our applications,” so I made my little sister do it. It takes about 30 minutes from start. That doesn’t account for selecting your two recommenders, and I can talk about that in a second.
But start to finish from as far as all the data you’re providing, the information, plugging in your academics, 30 minutes. Like most places, we’re going to ask for transcripts. We’re going to ask for two letters of recommendation. We use an internal form/ it’s not a free form letter. But two, they can be academic, or they can be professional. We’ve got a short answer question and a video essay, which is new to this year, and has actually really, really helped on the admission review side because it gets candidates in front of us sooner. We see their presence. We can hear about their goals. We really, really like that addition we’ve had.
It’s an entirely online application. It can be started and stopped at any time. It auto saves. You can start it out of curiosity one night, and then finish it a couple nights later. It’ll always be there for you. We’ve tried to make it as straightforward as possible and as painless as we can. All the standard things, transcripts or resume, two letters of recommendation. We do have a test waiver policy. It’s not like you can tell me yes/no for a test, but you submit a simple essay saying, “Hey, here’s why I think I can apply in lieu of the GMAT or the GRE,” and we review that and let folks know, and then we review applications.
In terms of the test waiver, do they have to submit the test waiver so many weeks before the deadline, at the deadline, or how does that work? [23:40]Nope, just part of the application. We’ve got an upcoming application deadline. Within 10 business days after that deadline, we let folks know. It’s not a, “Yes, you’re in. No, you’re not in,” but it’s a, “Hey, we gave you a waiver.” It’s not an indicator of admission. It’s an indicator that you’ve provided enough evidence that you don’t need to submit the GMAT or the GRE. Or “hey, we need you to either give us a test or go take the GMAT or the GRE. Let us know the timeframe that you might do it.”
If somebody’s not granted a waiver, it’s not the end of the road for them. There’s just some more steps. Sometimes folks have a test score, and they’re able to provide it to us. Others need a little bit of time to study for it. They might push their application to a later round, which is completely fine with us.
The essay question asks about “your objective in pursuing the MSBA.” CMU also asked for up to the two-minute video, which you mentioned, which asks them to discuss your post-MSBA goals. Now, some applicants may feel that the questions are duplicative. Can you provide guidance on how to make the most of each question? [24:32]Sure. Thank you for that. I think it might actually be a little duplicative, honestly, and maybe we need to wordsmith that a little bit.
What we see a lot with the written essay question is folks saying, “Here’s why now. I’m one year out of undergrad, or if I’m part-time, 10 years out of undergrad. I’ve had conversations with my supervisors.” It’s more of that of. Perhaps it’s better to frame it as, what’s your motivation to pursue an MSBA at this time? I think that’s driven by where you are professionally, where you are in your life. To say, okay, I’m a recent graduate and I know that business analytics is the hot item right now. We get a lot of folks, “I wanted to come to CMU for undergrad, and now I have this opportunity.” I think the written essay is more asking for, what’s your motivation at this point to apply?
The video essay, we worked really closely in partnership with our Masters Career Center. It’s the same essay that we ask our MBA candidates as well of, talk us through your goals. Of course, with MSBA, it’s likely, I’m going to move into an analyst role. I’m going to work for this company. But the thought that goes into it of thinking through, here are some companies that I think I might want to work for. We don’t specifically ask a plan B, but we give some guidance on maybe share a plan B, show the pencil versus pen argument.
The video essay is the opportunity to say, “Let me talk to you about my goals and talk to you about the companies and why I think I’m interested in that, but I’m also open to knowing it might take me a couple steps before I reach maybe my top company.”
Is it more long-term? [26:45]Yeah, yeah. It’s more encompassing, but maybe we’ll do some updating of those words, Linda.
What can an interviewee expect if lucky enough to be invited to interview? [26:56]You’re exactly right. Our interviews are by invitation only. We don’t have the capacity to interview everyone. We do a pretty nice 30-minute interview. It’s conducted by a member of the admissions team, so myself or any of my colleagues who are admission officers. It’s a behavioral style interview, so a lot of, tell me about a time when, give me an example. We always recommend candidates brush up on the STAR technique, the situation, the task, the action, and the result. It just helps to keep answers succinct, but I think too is we’re very conversational. Of course, we have a goal of the interview.
We’re trying to assess fit for the program, but it’s not meant to be a test. How I am today is how I am in an interview. I want to get to know these folks. Because our interviewers, they’re figuring out if they want to come just as much as we’re trying to assess if they will be. I would say be prepared with maybe three to five specific examples at work about leadership, about teamwork, about a time you were challenged, things like that, and allow the interviewer to lead. 30 minutes flies by. We’ve got things we need to get through, but there’s always time for questions at the end.
It’s 30 minutes, allow your interviewer to lead, but ask one or two questions at the end that you can’t really see on the website. I’ve had folks, Linda, ask me about my thesis from my masters degree because it’s on my LinkedIn. I don’t even remember my thesis from my masters degree, but it has shown me that they’ve taken the time to just dig a little bit deeper than the website, or I’ve been at Tepper a long time. I’ve been here nine years. My favorite question to answer is the growth that I’ve seen or where I see the program headed. That to me shows this candidate is really being thoughtful about the questions they’re asking instead of what’s the tuition or something that’s easily accessible on the website.
When this show airs, there will be still two rounds available for this application cycle. March 26th and May 7th are the upcoming or will be the upcoming deadlines at that point. Is an applicant in a disadvantage if they apply in these later rounds, and are they better off waiting until next year? [28:56]Yeah, totally fair question. Absolutely not at a disadvantage. We’ve got the four formal rounds for a reason. We don’t have our fingers crossed behind our back. If you’re a competitive applicant in round one, you’re a competitive applicant in round three. We don’t have a cap of the program that we’re trying to hit. Especially as this program is growing, we want the folks in the program who are, of course, going to be academically successful and be able to get the jobs that they want, but who are going to be good contributors to the classroom, that are going to be team players, that are going to be leaders.
Sometimes those folks don’t apply until round three or until round four. Absolutely not at a disadvantage. The only not even caveat that I add is if you’re an international student, the reason we recommend earlier is because of the visa process. Did we admit folks last year in the later rounds and did they get visas? Yes, but that’s a process out of our hands. My recommendation for an international student would be earlier, but absolutely you can apply in a later round. You just have a little bit less time to get your visa if you’re admitted.
How does the MSBA differ from an MBA with a focus on analytics or a masters in management with a focus on analytics? [30:25]There’s two simple ways. The first is it’s more technical and it’s more applied. What I mean by that is it’s a lot of business classes, but it’s business classes taught with the lens of analytics. I think I referenced it before, but I always think of our communication class. They’re all taught with this eye towards being analytics professionals. In a communications class, they focus on the science of storytelling and using data to do storytelling. It’s a communication class by nature, but it’s with an analytic lens.
Some of our core classes at the business school aren’t even taught as electives for the MBA program because they’re all specifically looking more towards that analytics lens. That’s the first, and then it’s just the how do you apply analytics? It’s one thing to learn about it, but then the application of it in these experiential learning courses to be able to say, “Okay, here’s this industry. Here’s how we’re going to apply analytics to it.” It’s in the application and then just being more technical overall.
https://youtu.be/dbwop8TqKl8What jobs are graduates of the programs getting, and how does CMU Tepper help them find those jobs? Are you seeing on campus recruiting coming back to Carnegie Mellon? [31:44]Yeah, we are. It’s really interesting, Linda. Just recently, the Admissions Office moved and we combined with our Masters Career Center in one suite. It’s been really, really exciting because it’s almost like the front end with admissions where the folks are talking and then to see the end, but we’re seeing the recruiters who are coming in. We’ve got a shared lobby space. That’s just my silly anecdote. Recruiters are coming to campus. We’re in our first cohort of full-time MSBA who are recruiting. They’re in the process of getting offers. We’re still kind of waiting and seeing what type of jobs. Certainly our prediction is they’re going to get early career analytics jobs.
They’re going to get business or data analytics jobs. Our part-timers I think are getting promotions. They’re moving into more senior analyst roles within their companies. But with these full-time folks, I think we are seeing that. But the support that they get is twofold. They get support from the Tepper Masters Career Center, so they get one-on-one coaching from the Career Center. They get resume reviews. They get mock interviews. They get all of these things in addition to at the Carnegie Mellon Career Center level.
They’re able to work with both the Tepper Career Center and the larger Carnegie Mellon Career Center with access to career fairs that happen at Carnegie Mellon, specific analytic career fairs that are happening. The levels of support are quite robust from one-on-one coaching all the way up to unique access to Carnegie Mellon analytic career fairs.
Does the part-time program also have access to the Career Center, or just the full-time? [33:30]They do.
Absolutely. Yep, absolutely they do. They’ve got the one-on-one coaching. They’ve got the access to recruiters. A part-timer can formally recruit. They do not have to only come to the program if they’re looking to stay at their company. They absolutely can recruit. Their resume becomes part of Tepper’s resume books. At Carnegie, we’ve got partnerships with over 200 recruiting partners who are coming and recruiting. They get a Tepper resume book. Even our MSBA students, their resumes are part of this resume book that employers can access.
What about applicants who are planning ahead for next fall? They’re not going to apply this cycle. How can they prepare to apply successfully? I mean, would that go back pretty much to doing the internships, demonstrating the aptitude if they don’t have the classes? I mean, what would you recommend? [34:14]Yeah, I would recommend all of that. I think those are excellent points, Linda. I think too is to try and connect with the community as well. We’ve got student ambassadors. It’s on our website of folks who are current students in the program who don’t report their conversations back to admissions. You can have these conversations of what is life like? What’s the class?How can I prepare. They also though don’t have a bearing on admissions. They’re truly just neutral conversations, but they’re really great, because they’re living and they’re breathing the program. Talk with a student ambassador. We’re probably in the next couple weeks going to get some campus visits up and running.
Those will go throughout the spring, throughout the summer. Come to campus, eat lunch with the MSBA students. If you’re a part-time student who can’t get to campus, we’ve got our online class visits. They’re live Tepper classes. You’re kind of a fly on the wall, but you can see the interaction between faculty and students, between classmates. In addition to taking that objective look at, okay, are there any classes maybe I could take or I could audit, if you’re a college senior and I guess you’re in probably your spring semester, but maybe there’s an opportunity to tack on a class. Of course, there’s that.
But I think in addition to that is, how do I really learn more about my fit with this community? Whether it’s the nine-month full-time or the 18-month part-time, it’s a quick program. It’s going to make a lasting impact. You want to make sure that this is the right place for me. Take advantage of the resources that we provide to immerse yourself in Tepper.
What question would you like to answer that I haven’t asked? [36:06]That’s a great question. I think it would be, “I don’t have the background you’ve talked about. Can I come to Tepper?” I talked about that a little bit, but the answer is I don’t know if you can come. I don’t know. It’s a holistic application review. Can you apply and should you apply? Absolutely. Do not count yourself out because… I think I’m very much like a list maker. I have this, check. I have this, check. I can go, okay, now I can go apply to Tepper. It is holistic. We don’t have our fingers crossed behind our back of, yes, we talked about aptitude. I don’t mean to repeat myself, but I don’t want folks to count themselves out of this program because there is no one set recipe for admission.
What if I’m not an engineer? What if I don’t have this class? What if I don’t have that? Well, then let’s have a conversation and let’s talk about what you do have and what can help make you be successful. My answer might be or my suggestion might be, hey, you might need to go take a class or two just so that you get here and you can be successful. My answer’s not going to be, “Don’t talk to me. Don’t apply.” We pride ourselves on being really approachable. We want to talk to folks. We want to share more about the program. We’re trying to grow our program, both of them. The part-time has been around several more years.
We always want to move and grow forward. If we had the same people applying, we can’t get diverse thought, we can’t get diverse backgrounds, and that doesn’t make for an enriching program. Should I apply to your program if I don’t meet the certain mold? Absolutely. And if you’re not sure about it, give us a call and we’ll talk about it.
You’ll give them some advice as to what they can do to prepare themselves? [37:52]Yeah, exactly.
Relevant Links:
- CMU Tepper Full-time MS in Business Analytics Program
- CMU Tepper Online MS in Business Analytics
- 5 Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Grad School Statement of Purpose – free guide
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Test optionality seems to be coming to law school admissions. Top schools have withdrawn mostly from the US News rankings. What does it all mean? We ask a law school admissions expert for his input. [Show Summary]Welcome to the 509th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we meet our guests, I’d like to highlight the featured resource for today’s show. It is the Accepted Law School Admissions Quiz.
Interview with Steve Schwartz from LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channel [Show Notes]Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Acceptance Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but actionable tips on how to improve your qualifications, plus it’s all free. Again, use the calculator at accept.com/law-quiz to obtain your complimentary assessment.
Our guest today is Steve Schwartz of the LSAT Blog and the LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channel, which we are going to link to from the show notes at accepted.com/209.
Steve graduated from Columbia University in 2008. In high school and college, he tutored students in a variety of subjects and also helped prep test takers for standardized tests, including the LSAT. However, he really began to focus on the LSAT when he was applying for law school. He founded the LSAT blog in 2008 and never looked back. Today, 15 years later, he has helped thousands master the LSAT, get into law school, and sometimes secure scholarships worth tens of thousands of dollars.
So Steve, thanks for coming back to Admissions Straight Talk. You’ve been on the show several times before, and I’m glad you could come back. [1:58]Thanks so much for having me on, Linda. It’s great to be back as well.
Okay, great. Now let’s start first with the changes on the LSAT specifically. The ABA in November moved closer, and it keeps moving closer, to making entrance exams optional for law school accreditation, which means that law schools will be able to choose whether to require the LSAT, GMAT, GRE or any other exam from applicants basically before making an admissions decision. Can you go into that change a little bit more, and what can we expect? [2:07]Yeah, sure, of course, Linda. So there has been a big test optional movement in higher education, of course, for quite a while now, and the legal profession tends to move a bit more slowly than others, a bit more bureaucratic, perhaps, and so it took this long for it to finally reach the LSAT and law schools and the American Bar Association.
There have been a few attempts, or at least a few proposals in the past to remove the so-called LSAT requirement, but I’m pretty sure this is the first time it’s ever made it this far, and at this point, we’re giving it the full rubber stamp to remove that requirement. At this point, it’s largely a formality, so we can expect they will remove that requirement in February 2023.
It will go into effect when? [3:10]That’s a great question. A lot of folks are confused about this. There was a last minute amendment added to the proposed revisions stating that their changes, if they go through, will not go into effect until the fall of 2025. So this is all a rather drawn out process now.
Okay, and when it goes into effect, assuming it happens, which is likely, although you said it’s going to go into effect until2025, but when it goes into effect, how will law school admissions be affected, and do you think they’re perhaps even being affected now or in 2024 and 2025? I mean, until then. [3:29]Yeah, for sure. So law schools will be free to remove the LSAT requirement and not require any standardized test at all. However, I suspect that most will not remove it and will keep the same policies in place as they have for many years. Of course, in the long term, who’s to say? But I would expect that for the next five, 10 years at least, most will keep the LSAT requirement, because they find the LSAT useful in making decisions.
What I’ve seen in the business school world in particular, I’m less familiar with undergraduate testing requirements, but in the business school world in particular, there’s been a whole continuum of experiences. So I think some of it, you’re already seeing in the law school world, right? They’re taking a variety of tests. Most law school applicants are still taking the LSAT, but they will accept the GMAT, they’ll accept the GRE, some will accept even the MCAT, which is a medical school exam, but what you’re seeing in the business school world is some schools, particularly the elite ones, are requiring an exam, usually the GRE or the GMAT. Some schools are taking a plethora of exams. Some schools are not requiring exams, and some schools are offering waivers, which means that the applicant makes an argument to the school why they shouldn’t have to take the exam, and the school either accepts or rejects it. If they accept it, they don’t have to take the exam, and if they reject it, they do have to submit an exam score.Do you think that that might be an intermediate step, the waiver policy, in law school admissions? [4:17]I love the waiver concept. I haven’t heard it discussed in the law school admissions context, but I could see that being a way to kind of maintain a soft requirement. So who’s to say what they’ll do? I’m sure that schools, law schools look at what other graduate institutions do, like business schools, and so they’re probably aware of this option, but I do think that law schools will require the LSAT or some other exam like the GRE in the vast majority of cases, and there is a key difference, I think, for law schools versus business schools, which is that there’s a big exam at the end of law school, the bar exam, and so law schools need to make sure their bar passage rates don’t drop too much, meaning they need to accept applicants they think are likely to do well on the bar and pass it.
Right, and the LSAT is predictive of bar passage? [6:08]I should be specific here. The LSAT is the strongest single predictor of first year law school grades. LSAT plus GPA is a stronger predictor of first year law school grades than the LSAT alone. So it’s only been studied to and shown to predict first year law school grades specifically. I would extend that a bit and say probably is a pretty good indicator of passing the bar exam as well, although perhaps not as strong an indicator, but the question also then is, if you remove the LSAT, what factors do you have left to consider in evaluating an applicant’s likelihood of passing the bar?
Right. The bar is a difference, but again, I know that what the business schools have done is they, largely forced by COVID… I think the move to test optionality was starting in business schools before COVID hit with lower ranked schools. When COVID hit and the tests were not available for a couple of months, and then it was only online, and in certain countries it was very hard to get, and of course, business schools were much more international than law schools. The schools kept the waiver policies, and they found they started testing, “Well, are the people who take the test doing better or worse in business school? Are they doing better or worse in getting the job after business school?” They, to a certain extent, reverse engineered it, and the results are not all out, but the schools that I have talked to say that they have found other measures that are as predictive or almost as predictive as the GMAT or the GRE.So I’m wondering if, especially starting lower down the law school food chain, are they going to start waiving the LSAT, which will jack up their application volume, and then reverse engineer it to see, “Well, is there going to be a drop in bar passage rate? Are these people not going to do as well? Are there other ways that we can assess them?” I know that for decades, certainly since I’ve started doing this, law school admissions, more than business school admissions, have been very much about GPA and LSAT, GPA and LSAT, GPA and LSAT. Do you have any thoughts on that? [6:46]Yeah, I do. You’re right that law school is unique in that admissions is largely number based in contrast to business school, which I understand is a bit more holistic looking at work experience, for example. The question is… I’m sure that it would be possible to reverse engineer it such that if the LSAT didn’t exist, maybe you could look at all the other factors combined and then make a prediction out of that. The question is, how do you do that at scale?
Especially… If you look at numeric factors alone, LSAT and GPA, remove the LSAT, GPA becomes more important, of course, but how do you deal with grade inflation? How do you deal with applicants who come from different universities and colleges with different majors? In pre-med, for example, I’d imagine the majority of applicants are majoring in something science related.
https://youtu.be/A9wlz9zJ3GEThe majority. Absolutely. [9:09]I would guess. Not everyone, of course. You can major in English and go to medical school, of course, but I think most are doing science. In contrast, you can major in literally anything and go to law school, and you, of course, see probably more humanities than STEM, but there’s a pretty wide range there, and the grade inflation question, I think, is a huge one. The executive director of LSAT, Kelly Testy, in these hearings with the ABA, she made the comment that GPAs are so inflated, it has to be virtually meaningless, which I thought was a bit hyperbolic, but I also kind of see her point.
No, that’s a very narrow range of GPAs that’s admissible at certain programs. It’s tiny, and it’s probable… Well, it is just tiny. I think that’s that… Let’s leave it at that. Let’s say test optionality, or at least the waivers, comes to law school. Who would you think should take the exam, regardless of the school’s requirements? [9:39]I would imagine that the majority of applicants who are admitted would be taking the LSAT, because there is still the factor of the US News rankings, which we can talk about in a bit if you’d like.
We will. [10:27]It’s a way for applicants to demonstrate that they’re serious about law school and not doing this on a whim or, for lack of a better option, that they’re investing themselves and are going to invest themselves not only in the application process, but in law school itself, versus, “I’m going to apply to every graduate program and see where I get in, and then choose my career path entirely based on that.
I would also say that, for the person who has a low GPA, and whatever low GPA means to the schools you’re applying to, it’ll differ from school to school, a good LSAT score can really help you get in, and it may help you get a good scholarship, and we’ll go back to that… We’ll get to the US News rankings and the changes there, but again, for people with excellent GPAs, it may be relevant experience, whether it be volunteer internships or work experience, if the LSAT isn’t required, it may be that you can celebrate not having to take the LSAT, but if your grades leave something to be desired or you don’t have that experience, the LSAT could be a way of showing commitment. It could be possibly –. again, it remains to be seen – a way to get a scholarship. [10:47]That’s exactly right. If your GPA’s lower than you would’ve liked it to be, or you just want to do something to improve your chances, given the emphasis that law schools place on LSAT and GPA relative to other factors, improving your LSAT score is the number one thing you can do, and I’m not going to say it’s necessarily easy, but if you can improve that number significantly, you’re going to maximize your odds of getting into a better law school, getting more scholarship money, or both, and again, with the rankings, law schools look to grant scholarships based on LSAT and GPA scores, because that’s how they raise their status in the rankings.
Are there any other changes that you see coming down the pike in LSAT land? Specifically the LSAT. Again, we’ll get to the rankings in a minute. [12:07]Yeah, sure. The other big thing happening in LSAT land is the logic games section. The logic games section will almost certainly be undergoing some major changes in the next couple of years, and they’re basically looking to remove the current section and replace it with something else that might be called logic games, might be just simply be called analytical reasoning, which is the formal name of this section, but the previous prep materials and the previous exams that are released covering logic games will likely not be nearly as useful, and I can get into why, if you’d like.
Sure. [12:43]Sure. So basically, there was a pre-law student, I think of a couple of pre-law students actually a few years back who sued LSAT. These were blind applicants, and they said that they were at an unfair disadvantage on the LSAT, because given that they were not able to see, they could not benefit from diagramming logic games the same way that most other test takers do. I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at the logic game, but it’s quite hard to do logic games without some diagramming or some scratch paper.
https://youtu.be/iyeLsfpljlgI haven’t looked at the logic games, but I occasionally play logic games, and I know I use a pen and paper. [13:13]You kind of need to…
Not the LSAT Logic games, the newspaper kind of logic games. [13:16]For those who aren’t familiar, imagine if you’re doing trying to do Sudoku in your head or crossword or…
Right, exactly. [13:27]It would be prohibitive just because there’s too much information at once. LSAT logic games really push the limits of your short-term working memory, meaning you can’t really do this in your head unless you’re a total genius. So I think these folks had a point, and so they sued LSAC under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and LSAC settled the lawsuit and agreed to complete research and development into a new version of the test without the current logic games section within the next four years. That settlement was in fall 2019, bringing us to fall 2023 as being the deadline by which they need to complete that research and development, and they have already started that process. We see it publicly.
Okay. All right. Is the new section likely to be easier? [14:08]That’s a great question. I don’t think LSAC can really make things easier, because they’re really sticklers about the standardized nature of the test, and so they can’t make it so that the new logic games versions of the test as a whole with the new logic games are easier than versions of the test with the old logic games. If they were going to make it easier, they’d have to adjust the raw score conversion charts, AKA the curve, accordingly, so that people were not at an advantage taking one version over the other.
The LSAT is not going away for at least two years, and probably longer. What are your top tips for LSAT prep given that the test is still required? The LSAT is still the most common aptitude test for law school admissions. Yes, many law schools are accepting the GRE or the GMAT, but when I’ve interviewed law school admissions directors, they all say that the overwhelming majority, usually 90% plus, are submitting the LSAT. So what are your top tips? [14:39]Well, my first tip would be, given everything we’ve discussed here, we’ve discussed a lot of changes coming down the pike in a couple years. These things are changing, but as I said, also, nothing’s really changing. The LSAT is still going to be required at the vast majority of schools for the foreseeable future. We’ll see what changes down the line, but if you’re listening to this now or in the near future, you’re applying the next couple years, take the LSAT. It’s almost certainly going to be required, and take it seriously. The logic game section is another thing to talk about too.
If you’re listening to this now and planning on the LSAT in the near future, I would highly recommend taking the LSAT before the logic games section changes. As I mentioned, the previous prep materials for logic games will no longer be relevant. The changes are big enough that you’re going to need new study approaches, and we don’t have enough information yet about what that new section will be like. LSAT themselves probably doesn’t even know yet, and so what that means is that you can’t study for a section if you don’t know what it’s about. When the new version does come out, sure, I’ll work diligently, I’ll pull all nighters to put out new stuff as quickly as possible, but there still won’t be the same volume of information out there about the new thing, because by definition, it’s new. In contrast, you have about a hundred released exams, meaning 400 logic games of the current format you can use to study from. So take advantage of this opportunity to get the LSAT done now. Make 2023 the year that you crush the LSAT.
Sounds good. All right. Now we’ve alluded to the other big piece of news in law school admissions, which I don’t think is as significant, actually, but it’s still big, and that is the withdrawal of a growing number of top law schools, starting with Yale and Harvard, from the US News rankings. Can you go into the background on that? Accepted’s blog has a list of the top 50 programs and whether they are participating in the rankings or not, and I’m going to link to that from the show notes, accepted.com/509, but for now, can you go into the background, what caused Harvard and Yale to leave the rankings, and, of course, other schools to follow their example? [16:28]Yeah, of course, sure, and those schools are constantly changing. I haven’t even been keeping up with it. So it’s great that you’ve put together this list of the law schools that are staying in or not staying in. That’s important information for folks to know, because it does dictate, to some extent, how law schools may adjust their admissions policies going forward. Although I agree with you that this isn’t as big a deal as the other things we’ve been talking about.
The background is that Yale and Harvard, vocally, they made public statements on their websites and to the media that they were no longer going to submit information to US News, they were no longer going to participate in the rankings, because they disagree with how US News ranks different law schools, and I can get into why, if you’d like.
Yes, please. [17:43]Sure. So there were a couple of big things that stood out. One is that these schools do not like the fact that US News effectively penalizes law schools for public interest fellowships. The way they calculate who’s employed after graduation. The public fellowships didn’t really make the cut, and so schools are at a relative disadvantage if they granted more public interest fellowships.
The other big thing is that, as we talked about, law schools give out scholarship money, merit aid based on your LSAT score and GPA, and so they were saying they don’t like that US News incentivizes schools to grant lots of merit aid to students to raise their status in the rankings when that money could have gone to need-based financial aid instead.
Those are the two big, big complaints about it, and another one that came up, I think, was that because the LSAT and the GPA are so highly regarded by US News, it was preventing law schools from taking a more holistic approach to evaluating law school applications. Certainly was the points that you made, but I think the third point was also something that was in there, and as you indicated, withdrawing from the rankings means that they’re not going to participate, they’re not going to submit their own information, and their deans are not going to respond to the surveys, but US News says it’s going to continue to rank law schools. So how will this withdrawal affect applicants? [18:25]Yeah, sure. So US News, of course, like anyone, is free to rank law schools. I can rank law schools, you can rank law schools. No one can stop us from making rankings of things, and so if US News no longer gets this self-reported data from law schools, then they need to adjust the rankings in some other way. They can put placeholders or use previous data and kind of make their own estimates and projections of what’s going to happen going forward, or they can radically change the rankings entirely to focus only on publicly available data that law schools submit to the American Bar Association, which I think is probably the best way for them to go and what they should have been doing all along, given that there’s been so much malfeasance and cheating, essentially, on the rankings by a number of schools, both law schools and undergrads and all also sorts of schools.
And business schools. [19:47]Business schools too. A recent law school example-
I think medical schools. [19:50]All of them, I think. All of them, and they have a big incentive to do it, and who can check. There’s no validation, there’s no investigations. So USC Law School most recently got in trouble for cheating on the rankings. Columbia University, the undergrad, got in big trouble for cheating in the rankings, and their ranking dropped as a result, and so I think relying on self-reported data, on publicly available data, US News can do quite easily, because this information is available already in the American Bar Association’s 509 reports.
I assume that data includes average LSAT and average GPA for the entering class? [20:21]Exactly. They have to supply the median LSATs and GPAs, and so given… I think they could quite easily make adjustments, US News could do that, and then it would really just become more neatly organized… I think you mentioned this when we were talking on LinkedIn. It’s like a neatly organized place for applicants to look at all the data, but of course, they shouldn’t place too much importance on these small differences in rankings.
No, I have said for a long time that the rankings are great storehouses of data, but the only ones ranking schools should be the applicants. [20:47]That’s exactly right.
Because they should have their own criteria for what’s important to them in a law school. If it’s placement at a Big 10 law firm, Manhattan Law Firm, well, okay, then that’s important to you, then figure out what schools are going to get you that. If it’s public interest law, then what schools are going to get you that? If it’s certain programs or externships or internships, then go for that location, whatever it is, and a lot of that information can be found neatly organized, well summarized in the US News rankings, but not all, and I think Einstein once said, “Not everything that can be counted matters and not everything that matters can be counted,” and I think that applies to rankings and evaluating law schools also.Yeah, but I think that there is a place for a storehouse, and it is valuable, it provides value to have that storehouse of data. Do you anticipate that more law schools will refuse to participate? I think right now, it’s about 15 that are not. [21:00]Yeah, I think I’m almost certain that more schools will drop out of their rankings. I think that they’re kind of fed up with it. They’re kind of fed up with playing the rankings game, giving out lots of scholarship money and not being able to look more holistically, as you mentioned. At the same time, though, if US News is still ranking them anyway and applicants are still looking at them anyway, their influence may not diminish that much.
I think it’s also worth mentioning that there is a problem with… Let’s say law schools stopped granting so much merit aid because they want to give more need-based financial aid instead. Schools like Yale and Harvard with enormous endowments can do that quite easily. They can make law school free for everyone for quite a while if they wanted to. Of course, they don’t, but other schools that don’t have such large endowments, where their budgets are more closely tied to tuition dollars in particular, if they were to hypothetically stop granting so much merit aid, who would stop them from just keeping that merit aid for themselves and keeping the scholarship money for themselves?
US News… As much as I don’t love the influence that US News has, I think it actually plays an important and often overlooked role, that it gives schools reason to give out financial aid on the basis of LSAT scores and such and GPAs, and as we mentioned earlier, the biggest way you can improve your shot at scholarship money and getting into better schools is through increasing your LSAT score, which is, in turn, largely due to the US News rankings and the role that they play.
I think also recruiters, law firms will look at it in terms of where they’re going to send recruiting people. [23:32]Certainly.
Do you have any concerns about the change? Do you see any negative impact? [23:40]That really is the number one impact, negative impact that I’m looking at here. I work with pre-laws, I’m looking to help people get into law school and get lots of scholarship money, and so I’m taking the applicant’s perspective on this rather than the school’s side. So for me, I’m a bit concerned to see that the merit aid could diminish as a result of this, but I’m overall not really that concerned at the end of the day, because I do think that the rankings will still play an enormous role. They’ve been around for decades. I think they’ve been around since 1990 or so, for law school, and so I ultimately don’t really…
I think it’s earlier. [24:16]Even earlier. Yeah, I think Yale’s been the top school for the past… Since 1990, before that’s been different, but I think given the importance that they have in public perception, I think the headlines around this will pass, and schools may get some good publicity for saying they’re not going to participate, but US News will still rank them anyway. So ultimately, I think this is another one of those things that will not really have a significant impact in the long term.
I had some concerns, and I think the ABA reports probably alleviate most of them, that this could lead to less transparency, that they’re not expected… Obviously, the rankings themselves, as you said, there was occasionally cheating, but I don’t think it would be good for applicants, let’s say, if they didn’t know the average LSAT and they didn’t know the range of LSAT scores, they didn’t have salary data for graduates.Again, if people are going into public interest fellowships or public interest law, and somebody is interested in public interest law, I think that information is really, really valuable. That was my one concern, but I think if you have the ABA, one of the 509 reports, I think is what the title is, then that’s going to keep the law schools honest and transparent.Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask you? Anything else going on that you feel is relevant for law school applicants at this point you’d like to comment on, or changes? [24:41]No, I think you were quite thorough and we pretty much covered everything we set out to cover. Again, I would just emphasize to folks that the logic games changes coming down the pipe, I would estimate that they’ll announce a new game section that will start in June 2024, since LSAC’s “year” begins in June, and June 2023 is too soon, because they haven’t done enough research and development yet, but I do think that 2023, if you’re listening, you hear this now or watching it now, make this the year that you crush the LSAT, because you want to take it with the current format. The devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.
Steve, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your taking the time to speak with me and our listeners. Where can listeners and LSAT test takers learn more about your coaching? [26:13]Yeah, of course. Thanks for asking me. So again, I’m Steve Schwartz, LSAT Unplugged. I’m pretty easy to find online. I’m quite active online. I have the LSAT Unplugged YouTube channel, the podcast, Instagram, even TikTok, Facebook. I’m out there, and of course, if you would like support with the LSAT, I have a variety of options including live online classes, on-demand videos, coaching. You can reach me at help@LSATunplugged.com. I’m glad to help.
Related Links:
Former Boston University Law School Admission Officer Christine Carr (current Accepted consultant) – YouTube
LSAT Blog
LSAT Unplugged – podcast
LSAT Unplugged – YouTube Channel
The Law School Admissions Guide: 8 Tips for Success – free download
Law School Admissions Quiz
Related Shows:
What to Do if the LSAT Becomes Optional
Acing the LSAT
How to Get Into Duke Law
How to Get Into UVA Law
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Everyone has challenges when applying to top law schools. But combine non-traditional work experience, a low stat or two, and a growing family, and this applicant faced significantly more than the usual hurdles. He overcame them all and got into his top choice program. Let’s find out how he did it, and how he’s doing now. [Show summary]
Hello and welcome. Thanks for joining me for this the 507th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check and not only that reality check, but an assessment and tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it’s all free. You can use the calculator at accepted.com/law-quiz, to obtain your complimentary assessment. Again, that’s accepted.com/law-quiz Grew up here in LA. Went to school in New York, Yeshiva University. I met my wife and we got married in LA, but we lived in New York for a couple of years and then the weather was just too much. And you can’t compete with the weather out here, so we moved back where our families are.to obtain your complimentary assessment.
I’d like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk, Yitzy Frankel, who is a 1L at UCLA law. Yitzy earned his bachelor’s in psychology from Yeshiva University in 2013 and a master’s in marketing from Sy Syms School of Business in 2018. Before joining Sy Syms, he worked as the marketing and social media manager for fencing in the schools, and that’s fencing as in the sword stuff, not the stuff around your backyard. And while fencing in the schools, he managed fencing programs in 10 states. After earning his masters, he worked at a Jewish boy’ high school in Los Angeles as Director of Admissions and Marketing, and he did that from 2017 to 2022, when he left to join UCLA Law. Yitzy, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where did you grow up, that kind of thing? [2:11]
Grew up here in LA. Went to school in New York, Yeshiva University. I met my wife and we got married in LA, but we lived in New York for a couple of years and then the weather was just too much. And you can’t compete with the weather out here, so we moved back where our families are.
Before we get into the admissions and law school stuff, what do you like to do for fun? Just a little background. [2:33]
I guess I have three main hobbies. Fencing, obviously.
Okay. [2:41]
I still fence competitively. Having a little bit of time with COVID and studying for the LSAT, but I still consider myself a fencer. I love biking and I’m a Van Gogh enthusiast.
Wow. [2:54]
My goal is to see every Van Gogh painting in the world.
There was a big Van Gogh exhibit here last year, wasn’t there, or two years ago? [2:57]
There was one in Santa Barbara recently. And actually, for my break, I’m flying to Detroit for a couple of days with my oldest daughter. We’re going to go see a Van Gogh exhibit there.
Now let’s get to law school stuff. How did you get interested in becoming a lawyer? It’s quite a change from psychology and marketing or being an admissions director at a high school. [3:12]
It’s something that I was interested in when I was 16 in high school and then kind of came back. I’m 34 now. So definitely kind of a second career. But basically, I had a teacher, Mr. Wasserman in high school that gave me a John Grisham book, and I fell in love with it. And at the time, I think there were 16 or 17, and I read all of them in two months.
Oh, wow. [3:42]
Yeah, I know. Since then, I’ve learned the legal field is not like the novels. But that’s definitely what piqued my interest. And I definitely always wanted to be a lawyer since then. The reason it took me so long is because I got to college and for various reasons, my GPA suffered. No good reasons, nothing that that’s excusable, just my lack of focus. And so I decided, I guess law school isn’t for me with my GPA.
I later learned that with a good LSAT and a strong application, you can really make up for a lot. But I kept pushing it off, and I got married. I’m like, I should have done it before I had my first child. I should have done it before. Then I had twins in the middle of COVID. I’m like, “Oh, now it’s for sure too late.” And then I met someone who was four or five years older than me who had decided enough pushing it off, time to go. And he went back to law school. And that kind of really inspired me that if he could do it, and I could be done before he started, age wise what’s my excuse.
So is he out now? [4:44]
He might be in his last year. I don’t remember exactly when he started.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3yO360DydgSo you mentioned the low GPA. Did you face any challenges, other challenges I should say, besides the low GPA when you were applying to law school? [4:52]
I guess other than my age and having three kids and it being a little bit different to take off three years to go to law school, it was really the low GPA and I just knew I needed to have a perfect application.
So two questions. How did you address or attempt to address a low GPA? Obviously, you can’t change it. Was your master’s GPA higher? [5:15]
Yeah.
Okay. So that was already good. [5:26]
That definitely, I completed that in I think 2018. So it was definitely not something that I did on the side just to show that I could get a high GPA for the purpose of law school, though I’m sure that probably works. But it was working with Brigitte at Accepted, I was really able to take responsibility for why my GPA had been so low even though it was so many years ago. And to show them between my career and between the masters and obviously, with a good LSAT score that I really can handle the rigors of law school and don’t judge me just by my GPA. That was old.
That’s basically what you have to do. And in terms of the LSAT, did you take it once? Did you take it more than once? Did you get a tutor? Did you take a course? [6:04]
I took it twice. I studied with a phenomenal teacher. But with three kids in a full-time job, I made the mistake of taking it the first time right after the holidays in September, October time, about a year ago. And not having a minute to breathe and just the final stretch of studying right before is very important. I didn’t do as well as I expected. And Brigitte actually encouraged me to, if you think you can do better, go for it. And thank God I took it then in January. So I was also a late applicant. As far as law schools go, I applied in the end of January, early February.
Oh, wow. That is late. [6:49]
Yeah.
But you still did it. [6:51]
Yeah.
https://youtu.be/MydzpMk4rFkAll right. And in terms of making your application perfect, what did the perfect application mean to you? [6:53]
At a very detailed level and making sure every period is in the right place. But it was more working with Brigitte, just to craft a coherent story, whether it was the personal statement or an addendum about my GPA. I don’t know if I have the most impressive story. I’m sure they hear some really impressive stories, and people have had impressive experiences and lives, but I spoke about what was personal to me. And it was really well crafted. Most people apply to law school once, so it’s something that’s like, why not talk to the experts? And Brigitte was an expert in non-traditional applicants. She, I believe, worked for UVA’s admissions department with people like me, like let’s give them a second look and see what’s there. She kept me from making mistakes. Really funny example was I kind of took what I thought was a self-deprecating crack at admissions officers because I was working in admissions. And she’s like, “Who do you think is reading your application?” Think about that. So she really helped me to present the best version of myself, I think.
That’s a great answer. Thank you. How did you choose where to apply? Obviously, you applied to UCLA, you got into UCLA. But that was one of many schools that you applied to. So what were you looking for in law schools? [8:10]
I applied to 17 schools.
You had several acceptances too. [8:22]
I had seven acceptances, six wait lists and three rejections.
That’s amazing. That’s very impressive. [8:31]
Yeah, I know. I was shocked. Honestly, UCLA was the dream. I’m thrilled that I got in. It was very funny. I guess as a splitter, high LSAT, low GPA, I was either wait listed or accepted with a lot of scholarship. Basically, I chose schools that were obviously in LA. I blanketed the LA area. But also just because I’m a religious Orthodox Jew and I’ve got three kids, I picked schools where I thought I was competitive that were in decent enough Jewish communities.
Got it. [9:08]
So one good example is Wash U and St. Louis.
Yes. [9:12]
Phenomenal school. They gave me a ton of scholarships. They were very generous and a good Jewish community.
Why did you choose UCLA? Was it mostly family or was it something about the program? [9:19]
I guess for two reasons. Honestly, it made the most sense. It was here in LA. Both our families are here. Very highly ranked, but that was the reason, that was number one. But learning more about it and having gone there, it’s just such a phenomenal school. It’s known as one of the schools where everyone’s collaborative. There’s really no backstabbing. Older students, and even my classmates are just happy to share outlines, for example.
That’s wonderful. [9:50]
Yeah, the teachers are just of the highest caliber, and they also have several different institutions where you can specialize. Just this coming semester, I’m going to be taking trademark law with an expert in the field.
And that kind of leads to my next question. You’ve obviously very happy at UCLA. But what do you like best so far about your UCLA law experience? I know you just finished finals, so it might be… And what do you think needs to be improved? So there’s two questions there. [10:08]
I mean, now that finals are over, that’s what I like best about it. Honestly, I’d say the caliber of the professors. They’re really all trained at some of the best schools in the country, and they’re phenomenal teachers.
Oh, that’s great. [10:41]
Great. So I really just enjoyed the classes. Even the class I enjoyed the least, civil procedure, I just enjoyed going to class every day, even though it was really difficult for me. It was by far the hardest class for me. The cases are just thrilling in my opinion. There’s really nothing to complain about. There’s so much to do, there’s so many programs going on. Obviously, as a 1L, I don’t get a lot of chances to take part in it. My biggest complaint is that there’s a reading room all the way up in the fourth floor tower, and the couches are so comfortable and just looking out the window, watching the sunset can kind of lull you to sleep. They’re a little too comfortable.
I know what you mean. Not about those catches, but about being comfortable when reading and all of a sudden, oh, well. Now, you obviously haven’t been in school for several years. What surprised you about your experience at UCLA Law? [11:25]
So I obviously wasn’t the best student, but I found that by prioritizing my schedule, and also, I kept a living document, a rolling document that I would edit that was kind of open on my computer at all times of the next week to week and a half of what was coming up. And I would mark what I’d read, what was coming up. That kept me on track. So I was always able to keep up with the readings and the assignments and whatnot. It was tough. It was tough sitting in class for hours a day at first, but then I really got into it.
And you adjusted. [12:12]
Yeah.
You adjusted. Do you have a specialty you intend to go into? [12:14]
For now, I’m looking more in the, there’s the Ziffren Institute at UCLA that has, it’s like media, entertainment, technology, and sports. So I’m going to take classes in that area, starting with trademark this coming semester. And we’ll see. I think the kind of intellectual property side of things is thrilling.
It’s a very interesting field to be sure. Now, you mentioned that you have a family. How old are your kids now, may I ask? [12:38]
My oldest is four and a half, and there are the twins and they’re identical, so it’s really cute. They’re about two and a half.
Wow, okay. That’s a handful. Two and a half year olds are a panic. [12:52]
Yeah. My wife gets all the credit. I studied for the LSAT for 11 months and she watched the kids every Sunday I was studying. So she really gets all the credit. It’s really not easy to make a career change this late in life. And she’s the one that really gets most, all of the credit, really.
I am sure. It sounds to me like it was very much a joint effort. [13:17]
Yeah. She’s the one who called me and encouraged me.
Do you feel that having a family at this point is making your law school experience more difficult or is it giving you focus, motivation? Which way is it? [13:23]
I don’t want to say it’s an obstacle in a bad way, but it’s definitely, my kids need attention. I wish I could see them more. I spend as much time as I can with them. I’m off now, so for a month I’m just spending every day with them. It’s not easy, but it’s definitely manageable, with prioritizing. Set aside my work to get it done. When I finish class at two, until five, I go home, spend an hour with them until they fall asleep and then finish the rest of my work. And they’re young. Hopefully, they won’t remember it too much.
Well, sounds like you’re also disciplined and you are making time for them. So far, are you glad you made the decision to pursue the JD? [14:05]
Oh, thrilled. I cannot be more happy. I thought the classes were going to be harder. I thought they were going to be boring. It’s like I’m finally doing what I’ve wanted to do for years.
Oh, that’s wonderful. [14:21]
It’s not something that I have to slog through and it’s like it’s going to be a tough three years, but just get through it. I’m really enjoying my time.
I guess you’re doing what you really wanted to do, like you say, for years, even if it’s not like a Grisham novel. [14:31]
Yeah. True.
What advice would you have for those interested in pursuing a law degree as a non-traditional candidate? [14:39]
A couple of things. Number one, what I found for me, the question that anyone needs to answer, and I’ve had a bunch of friends come up to me since I posted that I’m going back to school this late in life, some of them, not for law school, one wants to do an MBA, one wants to make a career change. They just don’t think it’s possible this late in life because they don’t see people doing it. The one question I think you need to ask yourself is, how long will it take you to get there?
For law school, it’s three years. For medical school, it could be 10 years. Will you wake up in three years and regret not having done it? If the answer’s yes, then it’s an easy question. You got to figure out the logistics. And that was for me. I’ve thought about medical school. My brother’s a dentist, an orthodontist, and I’ve thought about it. I won’t regret 10 years from now at this stage in my life not having done that. I know I was going to regret not having gone to law school when I was 35 or 36.
So that was, I think, one piece of advice. But I think you had two. [15:38]
Oh, that was one. And number two, and this is like, I could rant about this for an hour. Put everything you have into the LSAT. It can really change your life. A single point could be the difference between getting accepted to your dream school or getting rejected and could be worth thousands of dollars in scholarship. For me, I had in some ways the benefit of the pressure of knowing that my LSAT was going to determine 99% of it because my GPA was so low. So I kind of had this knife to my throat for a year where I was either studying for the LSAT or feeling guilty that I wasn’t studying for the LSAT.
Oh, gosh. [16:22]
And it really, for 11 months, which is longer than most people. Also, keep in mind, I had a full-time job. I lived with the question of whatever the decision is, will this help me do better on the LSAT? So whether it’s going to a movie Saturday night. Obviously, don’t take my advice too seriously. Don’t miss your cousin’s bar mitzvah, once in a while because you want to study, study, study full time. But I definitely didn’t see my friends for a long time and I just focused on studying for the LSAT and it paid off.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [16:59]
That was it, about the LSAT. I really think a lot of people, including me for years, think that it’s an IQ test and it’s really not. It’s really a learnable test. And I think a lot of people study wrong.
What’s studying wrong or right? [17:15]
For example, if a student, let’s say someone who’s a freshman in college and knows they want to go to law school and they’re like four years early, I’m going to start studying now. And they study a little bit every day. To me that would be like if you want to run a 26 mile marathon so you run a mile every day. When you get to the marathon, you’re not going to be able to do the 26 miles. So another thing where you trust the expert and go to people who teach the LSAT well, which is also another area. But it’s really something that’s a learnable skill. And don’t tell yourself, “Well, I’m not in the top tier of intelligence, so I probably can’t get the top tier of grades and scores on the LSAT.” And I think with the right motivation and really looking at your mistakes and being your own coach and beating yourself up about it because no one else will do it, can really help you to maximize your potential on the LSAT.
All right. Well, you obviously did. I want to thank you so much, Yitzy, for taking the time to join me today. I really appreciate your sharing your experience and perspective. Now, before we started the interview, you and I had talked where people can reach out to you via LinkedIn…[18:09]
Absolutely.
I actually reached out to one of your guests who had offered people to reach out to, it was Chris Melcher. He’s a professor at Pepperdine. And he, at the end of his interview, offered anyone want to reach out? I took him up on his offer and he helped me on a couple of my essays.
Wow. [18:44]
So honestly, if anyone has questions about being an older parent, non-traditional applicant or just want to talk about the LSAT, I’d love to talk to them. Yitzy Frankel, Y-I-T-Z-Y F-R-A-N-K-E-L. Find me on LinkedIn. And if I’m not studying, I’ll respond.
Okay, great. And we’ll link to Yitzy’s LinkedIn profile from accepted.com/507, which are the show notes for today’s show. So again, Yitzy, thank you. [19:03]
Thank you. And I know I’ve said this before, but thank you to Accepted and to Brigitte who really, that’s like my other piece of advice, go to the experts. They know how to apply. They know law schools and don’t mess it up.
Related Links:
Law School Admissions Quiz
Yitzy Frankel on LinkedIn
Work with Brigitte Suhr, Yitzy’s consultant.
Relevant shows:
What a Law Career is Really Like
UCLA Law School: How to Get Accepted
How to Get into USC Gould School of Law
Bonus Episode: USN Rankings, LSAT, and Laid-off Workers: What Does it All Mean?
How to Get Into Georgetown Law
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Did you know that Cornell Johnson has the largest Executive MBA program in the United States with four distinct flavors? I didn’t, but let’s learn together about Johnson’s EMBA program, its unique distributed classroom, and how to get in from its dean and director. [SHOW SUMMARY]
Welcome to the 506th episode of Admission Straight Talk, Accepted’s podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Before I dive into today’s interview, I want to invite you to download Ace the EMBA, expert advice for the rising executive. This free guide will compliment today’s podcast and give you suggestions on how to choose the right EMBA program for you, differentiate yourself from your competition in a positive way and present yourself effectively as a future business leader, who will bring credit to any program that accepts you. It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Dean Mark Nelson, the Anne and Elmer Lindseth Dean and Professor of Accounting at Cornell Johnson Graduate School of Management, and Dr. Manoj Thomas, Senior Director of EMBA and MSBA programs, and the Nakashimato Professor of Marketing, also at Cornell’s Johnson Graduate School of Management. Dr. Nelson and Dr. Thomas, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Thanks for having us.
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
Thank you, Linda, delighted to be here.
Dean Nelson, what makes a Cornell Executive MBA program different from other EMBA programs? [1:55]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
That’s a great question, Linda. I mean, first off is the fact that we have these four different flavors of a Cornell MBA. And that’s very intentional, it’s been developed over time. We started initially with our Metro EMBA program, which is based in New York City, and which is focused on a general management EMBA, providing that jurisdiction, that market.
Second, then we have our Americas EMBA program, and that’s a really unique program where we’re reaching out to executives throughout the Americas using our own unique approach to distributed learning. And then third, we created an FMBA program, a collaboration with Tsinghua University, a finance-focused EMBA, and that’s bilingual and offered in Beijing. And then fourth, we have our MBA/MS in Healthcare Leadership program, which is providing both an EMBA and also an MS in healthcare from two great institutions, the Johnson School and the Weill Cornell Medicine.
And so I go through that because the unique combination here is that we’ve got a general interest EMBA in New York, we’ve got something focused in the healthcare sector, we’ve got something that’s a unique and leading program in China, and then this Americas program serving the Americas. And I see that as a pretty special and unique roster of great EMBA programs.
Now, when you think about what’s the spine that relates all these together, there’s a couple things that I’d shout out, and then I’d maybe ask my colleague, Manoj, if there’s anything he wants to add in. One is that in all of these programs, we have a team-based learning approach that we think is really, really important. And by that I mean that we have students that, of course they’re performing individually, but they’re also on small teams, they’re coached, they’re assessed, they’re given feedback.
So we think of business as a team sport, and the ability of these executives to deliver exceptionally well in that context, we think it’s really important and so we’re very intentional about how we go about that approach. It is the case that in all of these programs, the students are working on problems that they’re addressing at work right now, so they’re able to put it into practice, and we think that team-based approach is really key.
And I guess the other thing that is unique, not only about the EMBA programs but about Cornell is that we have our Cornell Tech campus in New York City. So we are based in Ithaca, New York, but what a lot of people don’t realize is that we won the opportunity from then Mayor Bloomberg to create a new tech-based campus in the heart of New York City and have done so.
And so we have two of our programs, Metro and Healthcare Leadership, based at the Cornell Tech campus and all of our programs end up having residential sessions there. So to be able to offer programming at a campus that’s been built from scratch in the last 10 years, that’s very, very forward-focused and future-focused on the digital economy, that’s pretty unique and special, and we’re very proud of that.
That’s great. Dr. Thomas, do you want to add something? [5:28]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
I think Mark covered it very well, I’ll just reiterate what he said. I think what really makes our suite of MBA programs, EMBA programs, unique is first that I cannot think of any other popular university offering so many distinctive options for students depending on their specific needs. So that’s one thing that really makes it unique.
And the other thing is that we have realized quite early on that MBAs in general, but Executive MBAs in particular, they need not just to learn the skills, but they need the transformation of behaviors. They want to evolve as individuals, as people, and we’ve created a pedagogy that does both.
How? [6:09]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
So, as Mark talked about that, we are an Ivy League institution, you come to our program and we’ll teach you microeconomics and macroeconomics and we’ll teach you regressions, we’ll teach you accounting and we’ll teach you finance and marketing. And unless you know all of these things pretty well, you’ll not be able to graduate from our program. So that’s how you develop the skills.
The behavioral transformation comes from our team-based learning. So over time, they start learning that they not only have to do well individually in these courses, but there are lots of team assignments, and they’re intentional, they’re designed, keeping in mind that there will be behavioral learning here where they’ll get feedback from team members about their biases, about their preconceptions and how they can be more effective team players.
And all of that is a part of our curriculum. So that’s how we blend both of these goals and meet both of these goals. And I think that’s one of the things that makes us different from other programs, as far as I know.
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Can I jump in real quick?
Sure, of course, anytime. [7:13]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I just wanted to add that the process by which this happens is very carefully thought out. So we have a leadership framework that we created at Cornell. We call it the four Cs, where we’ve got competence and character and compassion and courage. And we talk about what each of those means and what those skills are. But when we’re talking about people operating in a group, the real key is, you give some instruction, but then they apply it and then they get very specific feedback, and rinse and repeat.
You keep doing that and working on each person’s individual weaknesses and helping them be stronger. This relates to diversity and inclusion, this relates to harnessing the power of the group and being able to identify the complementarities that make a group stronger. So we’ve got people who are absolute specialists in this that are team coaches and team advisors, and that’s a spine that runs through the program.
That’s very specific, not just general teamwork. They’re getting feedback on the nature of their participation? [8:20]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Yeah, I think it’s true, because oftentimes people will throw folks into teams and then they’ll throw them in another team and then they’ll throw them in another team, and that’s actually not teaching them, that’s having them work in teams and so…
And having them fall on their face and learn from falling on their face. [8:33]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Exactly.
When you’re talking about working in teams, you’re talking about people who also have usually full-time or almost full-time responsibilities. How do they navigate that? [8:55]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
That’s a great question. I’m happy to take that question. I teach in the program, and I didn’t really have an appreciation of how much our students have to go through until I started tracking them very closely. And to your point, Linda, I realized that the behavioral transformation happens because, as you said, they have very busy lives; they have their careers, they have their families, some of them have small kids, some of them have parents at home. And then they’re ambitious, and they sign up for this rigorous MBA program.
And what really makes them committed to the pedagogical goals is the fact that they’re learning as a team. And let me kind of illustrate with an anecdote, and I kind of encountered this quite frequently. Sometimes we have student assignments and we have team assignments in all our courses, individual assignments and team assignments. Sometimes the students, when they have to choose between doing extremely well on a team assignment versus an individual assignment, guess which one they focus more on?
Team? [10:02]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
A team assignment, because they feel they have this obligation to make sure the team performs well. And even if they have to make a trade-off there, they focus on a team assignment. And I think the team structure kind of helps us enable the students to navigate all the conflicting demands in their lives, enables them to grow in the program.
Cornell’s EMBA program is the largest in the US. What advantage does that create? [10:42]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
I have to begin by saying that we don’t know the exact number of enrollments in all schools, right? The only source that we can rely on our third-party industry service. So the most reliable source for us is EMBAC, which is an independent body that surveys all EMBA programs. And in the latest survey, they surveyed 125 schools, and we looked at the number of schools that have big programs and there are seven such schools when I looked at that. They are Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Sloan, UCLA, and Wharton.
And then we looked at the total, the number of students enrolled, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that we are the top in terms of students, whether or not we include our students in Beijing, even if we include our students just in the US, we have the largest cohort of students in coming in any year, at least in the year 2021 to our EMBA programs. Now your second question is, how does that help us?
I think the most concrete is that we learn from our mistakes, and we share those learnings as we start new programs or other programs. So each program doesn’t have to commit its own mistakes to improve; it can learn from the mistakes that other people are committing, our other programs are committing, and we learn from our strengths and we learn from our observations.
So going back to the team-based learning, we started our team-based learning with our Cornell Americas program, which uses this distributed classroom, and I can talk about that later. But we had to create team-based learning because the classrooms are distributed, they are not in Ithaca or in New York, they are spread all over the North Americas. And once we learned that, and once we realized the power of that pedagogical approach, we said, “Well, we have to roll that out to our EMBA Metro and our EMBA MS/Healthcare.”
And our program directors wanted to, were very keen to embrace those because they saw the power of this pedagogical innovation. So I think the most important advantage is that we learn, we have these internal learning process, so as an organization we are improving because we have all these programs. The second one is more obvious and more straightforward; we have a pretty large network, which means that Cornell EMBA alumni, that they’re in Chicago or in Toronto or in Peru, and they’ll have lots of other Cornell alumni that they can connect with.
Dean Nelson, do you want to add to that? [13.17]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I really do. I agree wholeheartedly with what Manoj said. There’s another thing that’s maybe less apparent, but I think is really important. And that is, you’ll look and there may be some schools where the EMBA program is sort of a one-off and they have a focus on something else, but they also have an EMBA program. And it’s really critical to highlight, and Manoj alluded to this, but it takes a special skillset to teach EMBA students well.
You’re dealing with more experienced people. , You’re dealing with people who are dealing with the strategic issues you might be covering on a daily basis. And while, Linda, you’re dead on that they’re very busy people, the other thing is that on a Saturday, they’re bringing into the classroom what happened at work on Friday, and they’re looking to apply it on Monday. And learning as a faculty member to draw on the incredible experience in that class and on the immediacy of them putting their education to work.
You’re sort of a conductor of a symphony more than you are playing your own instrument. It’s always that case, I think, when you’re dealing with graduate students, it’s even more so for EMBA students. So if we have four programs with somewhat different clientele and modalities, but they’re all focused on EMBAs, what that means is that we have a deeper bench of faculty, we have deeper expertise of faculty that we can bring to bear on this really important but somewhat distinctive student population.
What is a distributed classroom and how does it contribute to the Cornell EMBA options? [15:07]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I would ask Manoj because Manoj is teaching actively using this approach and he can describe what it’s like as a faculty member as well as more conceptually.
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
Happy to. I think we are quite proud of this. And I have to admit that we started off this concept in 2005. We did not realize that this is going to become so big and powerful. We did not anticipate a pandemic 15 years down the line and everybody going hybrid and online. But we started off 2005 in a partnership, our partnership with Queen’s University, and actually they are the ones who were the pioneers who had this idea.
And so we started our EMBA program in New York City and we were looking to take this, what we believe is a pretty strong EMBA program, to the rest of the country, and so were Queen’s, and we thought that we should partner with them. And we created a program spanning all of Americas, North and South America, in 20 locations.
And the problem that we faced was the following; it’s not like teaching engineering or a math class or a chemistry class where you can look at the glass slides, take notes, or read books and learn. In a business class, it’s very important to interact, it’s very important for people to debate and thrash out ideas and question and challenge. How do we create that environment? And this is more so for Executive MBA because there’s a wealth of experience, Linda, in each classroom. So how do we create that?
So people, our colleagues, who were running this program at that time, had this very powerful idea of creating classrooms, physical classrooms, in each location. So we have 20 such small physical classrooms, each can accommodate 10, 15 students. Students physically go into those classrooms every weekend. They spend eight hours there starting at 8:00 AM in their respective time zones, and the faculty either go to a studio in Cornell or a partner institution.
And we have a studio which is pretty much like a television studio. If you’ve ever happened to be in Ithaca, I’d be happy to give you a tour of their studio. We go in there and we have colleagues helping us beam our content, and we see all the students on a big, large, huge wall in front of us. And I can then say, “Ron in Toronto, what do you think of what Lisa just said in Dallas?” And then I can turn to someone in Seattle and say, “Okay, who do you think is correct?” And they can all interact with each other.
So what we’ve done is we created this structure where we can recreate an MBA classroom by recreating in peer-to-peer interactions, and at the same time we can distribute it across multiple locations. This is very different from what many other institutions currently… the way they currently think of online education. They think of a Zoom room, putting people in Zoom rooms, et cetera.
We also have those kinds of approaches but I think that the foundation of the Americas program, this concept of distributed classrooms, I think it’s a marvelous pedagogical innovation that has helped us roll out her MBA to many far different places.
So it’s almost a combination of small groups and online. [18:33]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you can tell I’m excited about this too. There are a couple things to add to this. Manoj gave a wonderful explanation. The first might only… this metaphor might only work for people of a certain generation, but there used to be a sitcom called Frasier. And Frasier was a psychologist on the radio and he had someone in the control room named Roz. And Roz would sort of orchestrate what was happening while Frasier was sort of the talent on the line.
And one of the things that is really powerful about this approach is that there is a Roz; in addition to the faculty member, there’s a control room. So what Manoj didn’t say was when he called on Ron in Toronto, the person in the control room pops up a record of what Ron’s doing, what’s his background, how does he tie in. There are opportunities for that controller to collaborate with faculty member in terms of how they’re offering ways that students in this distributed format can be providing polls and votes and input in a variety of ways.
So before I saw this, I sort of thought of a distributed environment as being, “How close to a real face-to-face classroom can you get?” And what I didn’t realize is that in some ways you have an augmented capability, unique capability. And that’s really interesting. And once again, it takes work to know how to harness that well. It takes the infrastructure and the talent and the team, but from a faculty member perspective, you have to learn to do that extraordinarily well. And that’s part of the investment that we’ve made in the structure.
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
Yeah, I just want to echo what Mark said. It is wonderful. Yeah, my colleagues, Todd and Steve, who are always behind the scene and in fact many times I’ve turned to them and asked them, “Which boardroom do you think I should ask this question to?” And they’ll tell me which boardroom is kind of just poised to answer that question. Yeah. It kind of augments our teaching skills being in that structure.
Do the students who, let’s say, attend in Dallas versus the students who attend in Chicago or Boston or wherever they are, or Florida, do they have group projects? Do they get together socially? Do they become a cohort? [21:08]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Yes, and they get very tight. So they’ll do group projects together and they’ll be socializing together. But they’re also, as Manoj was saying, they’re relying on each other and so they become extremely close. The other thing that’s interesting… I guess two other things about this format that I just find so intriguing. One is that we’ll allow students to do a weekend in another town.
And so there are some people who just have this bucket list of saying, “I’m going to go to every one of these boardrooms at one point or another and I’m going to join their…” Because they all know each other. They see each other and they’re interacting, both online and also when we do residential sessions. So the idea of someone from Mexico City popping up to Seattle and being hosted, they really enjoy that.
I assume there’s also forums for interaction midweek .[22:21]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. But another thing that’s interesting and that maybe isn’t immediately apparent is that, I mean you really, really benefit from each other in an Executive MBA classroom. Certainly do in a residential MBA classroom, but even more so from an Executive because they’ve got so much to share. And what’s better yet is imagine that you’re doing a case and you’re asking people’s perspectives, and one person’s in Santiago, Chile and another’s in Monterey, Mexico and another’s in New York City and another is in the Bay Area.
And they’re not only from a different place. I mean, in our residential program we have 43 countries represented. Not only from a different place, they’re in a different place and they can talk about how right now that cultural challenge might be addressed in their particular settings. And so to have that simultaneity of diversity of background, it’s just really unique, and I think it’s an unsung learning advantage of this approach.
Does any individual cohort ever get together with the rest of its cohorts? And do the cohorts ever meet altogether? [23:36]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Yeah, we have residential sessions where they’ll come to the Ithaca campus, they’ll come to our Cornell Tech campus, our partner university, Queen’s. And, I mean, it’s like a huge family reunion when this happens because everyone knows each other and they not only interact during the day in the classroom, but I think the bar scene in Ithaca benefits from their presence. I mean, they get out and they socialize a lot with each other and they’re excited to do so.
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
I’ll just add to what Mark said. I talked to somebody who was in our first class, 2005, who graduated from the first class and I asked them, “What is it that you really take away, remember, even now from the program that you attended in 2005?” And he said, “My classmates, my board roommates,” and he said, “We’re still in touch, we still meet.”
So part of it is, as you, I think, quite astutely pointed out the beginning, it’s a very rigorous program because they have conflicting demands and now they’re put in a team, they’re accountable for the team because many a time they’re leading their team project and they kind of rotate in their roles and they get to know each other very well, extremely well. They get to know each other’s family problems so they can help each other around all of that.
Now they’re seeing other teams online and now they’re curious to meet the team in Toronto or to meet the team in Calgary or meet the team in Boston. And like Mark said, then there are these residential sessions that happens twice a year, and they come to Ithaca or they go to a Cornell Tech campus and they’re like, “Oh yeah, so finally we get to meet the people in Boston and we finally get to meet people in Monterey,” and they bond there. So I think it’s a wonderful structure.
What do most people not realize about Cornell’s EMBA programs, or options I should say, that you would like them to know? And are there any misconceptions that you would like to dispel? [25:31]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I’ll say a couple and then invite Manoj to jump in. So first off, there’s some things that I think they just automatically expect. They know Cornell University and the Ivy League School and they anticipate that it’s going to be high quality and rigorous, and it definitely is. I think the team approach that we were describing is something that people probably don’t realize to the extent that they could.
The amazing diversity of students in these classes, both in, depending on the particular program, geographic location, functional orientation. In our Healthcare Leadership program, half of the program consists of clinicians, but the other half are people from the healthcare sector really broadly defined. So they’re healthcare implement manufacturers and consultants and pharmaceutical, biotech. So that diversity of functional discipline and orientation, it takes them only a little while to realize just how much they have to draw upon and to learn from.
So all of that I think is true. What people maybe don’t know, I don’t know if I’m dissuading or informing at this point, but sometimes people have the image of an institution of Cornell’s standing, as full of a bunch of stuffy people who aren’t approachable and aren’t warm and aren’t caring and aren’t supportive. And it’s very, very much the opposite. So you go back to the motto of Cornell, “Any person, any study,” the idea of being welcoming and embracing and supportive.
Everyone’s ambitious, everyone’s driven, but it’s not cutthroat. It’s exactly the opposite. And that then leads to the power of the Cornell network after they graduated. And it’s sort of like the rings of an onion or whatever, where you start maybe with your team and then your cohort and your class and your program, your year. But it doesn’t take long before you’re talking about the Cornell University network of well over 250,000 people and they’re all, we talk about, bleeding Cornell Red, huh?
And they’re sort of part of your network. There’s this line about Cornell that we’re elite but not elitist. And I think that’s really important for people to understand. They’re joining a family and it’s an accomplished family, but it’s a very supportive and close family. And that makes the process fun and affirming and special.
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
Can I add, Linda? And in terms of the more… I agree with all that Mark said, I want to touch on a couple of concrete things. I was talking to somebody on the West Coast and this person was telling me that this person is working in a good company, technology company, and saying, “I want to do an EMBA, but from a place like Cornell, but I can’t travel, I don’t have time to travel.” And that’s the first myth I’d like to bust.
If anybody is listening to the program, I want you to know that you don’t have to travel to Ithaca or New York to get a Cornell EMBA. You can be in Seattle, you can be in San Jose, you can be in Los Angeles, and you can stay there, and without quitting your job, you can get an Ivy League Cornell EMBA. That’s the first thing.
And when I told this person this, they said, “Oh, that’s interesting. That’s really interesting. I probably would like to enroll.” And then he thought about this and said, “But I’ll have to take a GMAT.” I said, “Nope. The GMAT usually was required for your regular MBAs, but if you’re applying for an Executive MBA program, we look at your profile. We need certain experience, we need 15 years experience, we need you to have some management experience, leadership experience.”
“But if you have those, and we need you to have an undergraduate degree that enables you to attend and respond to rigorous courses. But if you meet those benchmarks, we know that you are very busy, working executives, so we are not going to ask you to take a bunch of time preparing for tests. We don’t need to do that because we have enough information from your credential to evaluate your preparedness for a program.”
So those are the two things I’d like all prospective applicants to know. Even if you are in Canada or anywhere in any part of the US, you have access to a Cornell EMBA program. And we made it easy for you to complete your EMBA without quitting your jobs and without having to take too many leave, et cetera. And the bonus that you get is that you’ll get some lifelong friends.
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Sorry, one more thing that just… Manoj sparked something in my mind. Something I want to make sure people don’t do. Don’t psych yourself out. Don’t think you can’t do this. One of the things we have, we have a pre-assessment process where we ask people to just reach out to our admissions folks and talk to them. Applying to an EMBA program is very different than what people have in mind maybe when they applied for undergrad, where they filled out this common app and mailed it and sat there nervously for four months, wondering whether anything’s going to happen.
With an EMBA program it’s a lot more almost like executive placement. I mean, you’re talking with busy people, with accomplished people that… they don’t want to waste their time, we don’t want to waste their time. So early on in the process, we’ll talk about what our programs are like. We’ll help people understand which program is best for them. We’ll walk them through the process.
And if there was some reason why we didn’t think someone was a fit for any of these programs, we tell them. So we’re not wanting to waste their time. Instead, we’re wanting to help them through this process, just as we’ll help them through their EMBA. Sometimes I’ll talk to people and they’ll say, “Oh, I never applied. I could never get in.” It’s like, “Well, how do you know if you don’t talk to us?”
We promise we won’t lead you on, we won’t waste your time, but give yourself the opportunity to be considered because it could be a life-changing opportunity.
Dr. Thomas, what are the cities where the distributed classrooms are located? [32:08]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
On the East Coast we have Ithaca, New York, Boston, and DC. Then we have Seattle, LA, San Jose, and Francisco. We have Dallas and Houston. And then we have 10 other cities in Canada. And we have Monterey and Lima-
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Santiago, Mexico City. I’ll jump in.
Is that for all the EMBAs? [32:36]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
For EMBA Americas. We have our Metro EMBA program, which is based in New York City. So if you are from the Northeast and if you really are passionate about being a part of the business community in New York City or in the tri-state area, then we would say that you should go to the Metro MBA program, which operates at the Cornell Tech through our state-of-the-art campus for business school.
And I think I should… I don’t know if it’s the right time or not, I also want to talk about the other program, which is our EMBA/MS program that’s also based in New York City. And that’s a very unique program of its kind. I don’t know whether it’s the right time or you want me to…
As you might know, Linda, one of the sectors that is booming a lot in the US and for the rest of the world is healthcare.
There is a lot of need for people who are trained in management skills in the healthcare sector. And so many of the business schools have been creating specialized tracks for healthcare MBA. What we’ve created I think is truly unique. So it’s not just a healthcare track. We come up with a dual-degree program where students get an MBA and they get an MS from a reputed medical school, which is Weill, and they’re co-taught.
Half the courses are taught by business school professionals, our Ivy League professors teaching MBA programs, and half of them are taught by faculty who are clinicians or professors from the medical school. This is a program that is completely unique and it’s only five years old. And I’m optimistic in 10 years from now when we have brilliant physicians and healthcare professionals all over the country looking for the best healthcare program in the country, I’m optimistic, I’m hopeful that they’ll turn to us.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the pre-assessment? [34:51]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
There’s a bit of form as well as a conversation that people will have. Really quickly in the process the idea is to just get… it’s just the starting bare-bones amount of information for us to be able to help someone to triage. And then from there, we’re moving on to walk them through the process itself. When you’re submitting a pre-assessment, we could pop that up to something too.
It’s before you’re entering the formal application process, it’s before you have to have any kind of an application fee. It’s just designed to get you started. And it’s a very small amount of information before you’re having a conversation with an admissions expert that’s there to answer any question that you might have.
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
And just add to that a couple of… As Mark said, it’s very, very short. And we have basically two goals in this. One is we want to tell them, as Mark said earlier, if the students are not appropriate or suitable for an EMBA program, we want to tell you early on that, “Okay, this is probably not the best program for you.” And we’ll guide them to other programs or give them that feedback. That’s the first step.
So it’s very easy, just fill in your name and give them your LinkedIn profile and then you basically have a conversation. Someone tells you that, “Well, you are the right kind of person who should apply,” or, “You should not apply.” Now if you are the kind of person who should apply, then our admissions officers will work with them to help them complete the application process and guide them through the application process. So the pre-assessment serves those two kind of goals, which are I think very important.
Who should take the GMAT, GRE or EA? Do you have any preference among those tests? [36:49]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
I’m not quite sure why. If you really want to see where you rank amongst all the other students, and if you have that need, I think you should take the test. I think typically people take the GMAT. I took the GMAT long, long time ago, and I suspect most of the business school students were applying to do MBA program, they take the GMAT.
If it’s not used at all, then there’s no point in it. There’s absolutely no point in it. [37:21]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I’d say they don’t need to be submitting a test score. If they’ve done it and it’s a wonderful score, then go ahead and submit it because why not show something wonderful? But it’s not a barrier. And I want to go back to something that Manoj was saying earlier, which is when you’re dealing with someone who’s 35, 40 years old and they think they’ve already got a record of accomplishment, it’s a little silly to try to judge them based on a standardized test score or based on their undergraduate grade point.
It’s what have you done for the last 10, 15 years? And that’s the real track record. And so it makes sense that the less experienced the target audience of a program is, the more things like tests and undergraduate performance and stuff matter because you’ve got less else to go on. But at this point, we’re looking to bring in people who are already successful and already leaders, and to just accelerate their trajectory, make them that much stronger and able to go that much farther.
What if somebody has, for whatever reason, they blew off undergraduate, they had a tough time, they have a really poor GPA, they have a 2.5 GPA, but they have excellent work experience, they’ve really accomplished a lot once they got out of school. Do they have a chance? [38:43]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
I’m very glad that you asked that question because I think all the applicants should get the correct picture here. So our program is quite rigorous. So they had to do quantitative analysis, they had to do strategic analysis, they have to have soft skills and hard skills. So we do require a certain level of competence on the part of applicants as they’re applying. And the only point is, “How do we assess that?”
As Mark said, for us, it’s not an entrance exam that helps us assess it. It’s the performance, past-academic performance, and their track record in the industry. And when I talk to my colleagues in admissions, “What do you look for?” And they’ve said that many times they’ve said, “No, this person looks really good on paper. And in fact this person also has very good academic track record, but I don’t think this person will be able to contribute to the team in a team discussion, so I don’t think this person is a good fit.”
So that’s the approach that we take. Your question is more specific and probably best answered by one of my colleagues in the admissions office, but my suspicion is their answer will be something like this. They’ll say that if a person has got really weak undergraduate track record, then they most likely would be guided to take some courses or show some evidence for some kind of… the ability to take… perform right in a classroom.
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I’ve actually run into this situation before, and people grow and change. I don’t know about how you think about when you were an undergraduate, but I personally am grateful that I’ve grown and changed since those days. Thank goodness.
My husband likes to say,”I’ve never met anybody who feels they were smarter five years ago than today.” [40:51]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
And some people have more to grow when they’re 18 than others or at a different point in time. And so it’s just really, really important to know where they’re at at the time that they’re applying. And so part of what happens with pre-assessment is that, let’s just say that someone has nothing in their background or their education to suggest that they would be comfortable dealing with the more quantitative aspects of the program.
They will recommend some training materials to help the person be prepared. Because the last thing we want to do is to have someone admitted and not be able to do the work and not have a great experience. So think of it as almost a diagnostic process in this admissions process. And we’ll look to see if there’s a weakness in someone’s background that they should address just to make sure they get the most out of the program length.
But again, don’t start off by saying, “Well, I got a two five in undergrad, so there’s no way Cornell would accept me.” Let’s have the conversation, because it might be quite possible that they’d be a tremendous person based on the trajectory of their career since they were an undergraduate.
If you were a potential applicant thinking ahead to an EMBA application and program, what is the one thing you would do to prepare yourself to apply? [42:08]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
That’s a very good question.
Dean Mark Nelson:
This is going to sound incredibly selfish because I am an accounting professor, okay? But one of the things, if someone has never ever… and I’m looking really past the application process, if someone’s never seen any kind of financial statements, financial information, anything of that nature, there are all of these different short courses or overviews or whatever. Just getting a little bit of the bare bones of accounting I think is useful because then when you jump into an accounting class, you’ve got some of that language, some of that syntax. But again, I can’t say that I’m not being self-serving in that because I am an accounting professor and I love this stuff.
Dr. Thomas recommends a basic course in marketing? [43:17]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
So I just wanted to make sure, Linda, well, I would definitely recommend a basic course in marketing clearly, but I just wanted to clarify, did you say that after they get admitted or before they apply?
Potential applicant. [43:32]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
A potential applicant? So if somebody is thinking of applying for an EMBA program, my recommendation would be get in touch with other EMBA students. Understand the experience, understand whether this is for them. It’s not for everybody.
And the challenges. [43:53]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
Yeah. It’s time consuming for people to go through… I mean, once you enroll in an EMBA program, I’ve heard people say that, “We kept our social life on the side for two years, because all we do is work and study.” And so you are giving up a lot for two years and you have to make sure that you are in it because it’s going to be valuable for you. That’s going to be my advice.
[Dean Mark Nelson]
No, that’s great. And I’d also add, if you’re in a committed relationship, sit your partner down and say, “Okay, are we in this together?” Because at graduation, I always make sure to thank the partners and to say, “Congratulations to the both of you for getting your EMBA because it was a team effort at home as well as in the classroom.”
Sure. By the way, I was laughing when you were suggesting taking an accounting class because I was an undergrad, I have an MBA, but it was a full-time MBA and not an Executive MBA, and I was a political science major. I took the minimum amount of math in college that I possibly could get away with. So when I was thinking of getting the MBA, and at the time you only needed one year of work experience, I took a math class to prepare myself and one accounting class because I felt I needed to know something about the language of business before I committed to this. [45:12]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
And were you glad you did that?
Yes, I was. I was very glad I did that. [45:15]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
There you go.
Proof positive, absolutely. So I’m sorry, Dr. Thomas, I did not take marketing at that point. [45:22]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
That’s okay. No, you did your marketing in your MBA program then.
Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask you that I haven’t asked? [45:29]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
I don’t think so. I think if there’s one thing I’d emphasize is something that Manoj said right towards the end, a really, really good way to understand what a program is about once you’ve talked to people in admissions, is to say, “Who are some students who are some alumni that I could speak with?”
And there you’re talking to somebody who’s been a customer and they’ve been part of the whole experience, and they will give their own perspective. And certainly we would be happy and proud for people to speak with any of our current students or any of our alumni because we’re looking for that alignment and that excitement about being part of our community, and we think they’ll convey that very well.
Dr. Thomas, what would you have liked me to ask you? [46:33]
[Dr. Manoj Thomas]
I think you’ve asked all the great questions, Linda.
I just wanted to emphasize the behavioral transformation part of the EMBA program along with the skilled learning, and the fact that there is an EMBA program which is specifically designed for people from different industries, different backgrounds. I think you’ve covered all of that, and those are the things I would’ve liked to emphasize in this conversation.
I want to thank both of you, Dean Nelson and Dr. Thomas. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been delightful. Where can listeners and potential applicants learn more about Cornell Johnson’s EMBA programs? [47:44]
[Dean Mark Nelson]
Johnson.cornell.edu\programs\EMBA.
And a final reminder, download your free copy of Ace the EMBA, Expert Advice for the Rising Executive.
Listener, thank you too for joining Dean Mark Nelson and Dr. Manoj Thomas and me for our 506th episode. Thanks again for coming.
This is Admissions Straight Talk, produced by Accepted, and I’m your host, Linda Abraham. I’ll talk to you again next week. [48:24]
Related Links:
- Executive MBA Programs | EMBAs from Cornell Johnson
- Cornell EMBA Application Essay Tips & Deadlines [2022 – 2023]
- Ace the EMBA: Expert Advice for the Rising Executive,a free download
Relevant shows:
- How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA [Episode 488]
- Applying to Wharton Lauder? Do Your Research! [Episode 465]
- Ace the Executive Assessment [Episode 483]
- Why Is This Successful Leader Investing In an Oxford Said Executive MBA? [Episode 454]
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Reflecting on trends that impacted graduate admissions in 2022, Linda Abraham shares her predictions for 2023 and offers an action plan for those planning to apply in the new year. [Show Summary]Thanks for joining me for today’s solo show. I’m going to review a few trends from 2022 and also attempt to inspire you for the upcoming year. You can email me at ast@accepted.com when my predictions prove wrong in the course of the year.
Predictions: More law schools will withdraw from U.S. News rankings [1:16]I predict that more law schools will withdraw from U.S. News rankings.
Will the rankings influence end with the withdrawal of these schools? I actually don’t think so.
U.S. News will use publicly available data and still rank programs. Its rankings will continue to influence admissions, recruiting, and applicant decisions. But are they going to hold as much sway as they have in the past? I don’t know. That’s hard to say. I don’t think the U.S. News is going to just stop ranking schools. I don’t think applicants are going to stop looking at rankings, and I don’t really think schools are going to stop being influenced by rankings. Perhaps a little less so in the past, but I think you’re going to see changes on the margins in that segment.
What about other segments of the higher education market?
I don’t think medical schools are going to stop ranking or participating in the U.S. News ranking. I also think that the rankings are a little bit less influential in the med school arena than they are in law schools or business schools.
It’ll be really interesting to see if business schools withdraw from the rankings. Certainly, the admissions directors there have no greater love of rankings than the law school admissions directors and deans.
I think if you see the M7 schools withdraw, you might see a trend very similar to what you’ve seen in the law school market, where it’s the elite programs that have largely withdrawn, and the lower-down ones are not withdrawing yet. There are some that have but not that many.
We’ll link to posts that Accepted has on the withdrawal of specific schools from the U.S. News rankings.
Prediction: More experimentation with test options and waivers [3:05]What about test optionality? That has been a trend that’s been growing and increasing over the last several years. It really took off with COVID. I don’t think you’re going to see much change in the law school space this year. I think you will see it if, as anticipated, the ABA approves making tests optional for its accredited programs. I think you’re going to see more experimentation in the grad and MBA market with test optionality. And you may also see, throughout the graduate and undergraduate arenas, acceptance for a larger variety of tests.
Many law schools are accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. In the business school world, you’re seeing widespread acceptance of the GRE or the GMAT to the extent that the test is required. You’re seeing more waivers. You’re also seeing greater acceptance of the Executive Assessment, which was originally designed for Executive MBA programs. And at some schools, you’re seeing them basically saying, whatever has an alphabet soup in it is fine.
I think you’re going to see more and more experimentation. You’ll see more waiver options and there’s been a lot of experimentation with that in the B school market. I’m not sure you’re going to see wholesale test optionality at the elite programs.
I think med schools will stick with the MCAT. It has some correlation to performance on the USMLE, which is obviously the test that doctors have to take at the end of medical school. And medical schools very legitimately want to know that the people they admit are going to perform in medical schools.
Grad schools are all over the map outside the professional designations that I’ve just discussed. Some are going to require a GRE or another test; some won’t. Again, a lot of experimentation is going on.
Prediction: Application volumes will soon increase [5:03]What about application volume? When the US or the world goes into a recession, unemployment typically increases, and application volume and competition for graduate school seats also increase. So far, unemployment is still pretty low in the United States
If the job market remains tight, application volume will probably remain low for certainly for the remainder of this cycle, which is the 2022-2023 cycle and maybe even into the 2023-2024 cycle. I don’t think so though. I think unemployment will increase and therefore, application volume will increase. This will be for all graduate categories: business school, law school, med school, you name it. When the economy is in the tank, it’s a great time to go to graduate school, whatever your profession is.
I don’t know that schools will hit the kind of application volume highs that they hit at the beginning of COVID lockdowns, but I think you are going to see if a recession does hit, that application volume will increase. My suspicion is that you’re going to see this either with late rounds at business schools or, more likely, the next application cycle across the board.
What to make of these predictions [6:26]What do you take from all this?
Whether law schools are in or out of rankings is something that gets headlines, but frankly, it really shouldn’t affect you that much. You should be making your own rankings. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. U.S. News is a great source of data that you can use to compare law schools on specific metrics, but that shouldn’t be the sole determinant of where you apply. Whether you’re applying to law school, business school, med school, or whatever program it is, you should be doing your own ranking.
Test choice and test optionality are definitely good for applicants. Having these options could change your application process and give you a bit more control than you would have if one test was definitely required by the schools you’re applying to. But even for law school, these changes won’t come until 2025, at the earliest. Frankly, if your grades don’t show academic ability or don’t reflect what you feel is your academic ability, then you will probably need to take a test. Take the one that shows you at your best. You’ll want to take it because schools want to know that they’re admitting people who can do the work.
The anticipated increase in application volume will affect your chances of acceptance. There are so many seats in a specific school. They get more applications and competition becomes more intense. That could influence your school choice as well as where you get in. But again, that is something you don’t have a lot of control over.
That’s a review of 2022 and some of the major changes or influences that I see on applicants from last year.
Perspective for applications in 2023 and beyond [8:06]Another purpose of this solo episode is to share my perspective on this whole process. I’ve been an admissions consultant since 1994. I’ve seen great applicants come through, mediocre applicants, and sometimes some not-so-good applicants. Most applicants that I’ve dealt with are really wonderful, talented people.
I responded to a post on Student Doctor Network, which is a forum for medical school applicants, in September. This post really, really bothered me. I’m going to share the post with you and what I feel is wrong with this post.
So on the Student Doctor Network, also known as SDN, this fellow wrote:
“Two pre-interview invitation rejections and no interview invites. Sick of seeing so many people I know who are mediocre and disingenuous get consideration with record speed. Feels like no matter what I do, it’s never good enough. I’m considering just pursuing a doctorate in science and leaving the shell game alone.”
Obviously, this fellow was frustrated.
For those of you who are not familiar with the medical school application process, interview invitations are typically sent out between September and February. It can start a little earlier, but September is pretty typical, and this was posted towards the end of September.
I responded to this fellow with some sympathy, but I also wrote:
“For your information, whether you get an interview invitation in September or January, as long as that interview invitation ends up with an acceptance, it doesn’t matter when the invitation comes and whether you apply once or more than once. As long as you get in, you’ll still spend the vast majority of your working life as a physician.
“So whether you go for a Ph.D. or become a physician depends not on whether others get interview invitations or acceptances but on how badly you want to be a physician versus the Ph.D. in science. They can provide very different careers and lifestyles. It also can be fairly difficult and competitive to get into Ph.D. programs.
“Finally, the people you feel are mediocre and disingenuous may have something going for them in terms of their achievements and insight into their experiences that you are unaware of. It happens all the time. They also may have presented their qualifications and fit more effectively via their application.
“Don’t automatically blame ‘the system’ and fail to take responsibility. Doing so will prevent you from improving what needs to be improved, whether you need to apply to med school or decide to pursue a different path.”
Why has this post from someone I never met stuck with me and bothered me so much?
It reflects an attitude that I feel is very disempowering and just unhealthy. I firmly believe that graduate school is a means to an end. Anybody who has listened to this podcast knows that’s what I think. First, you determine what you most want to do and the education needed to achieve that goal. Then you figure out if your goal is worth the effort and resources required to attain it and go for it. But realize that the application process and the study or the program of study you’re trying to get into are means to an end. They are not an end in themselves.
So whether you go for plan A or plan B, and whether that’s becoming a business person, a lawyer, a doctor, whatever it is, it should not depend on whether someone you feel is worthy or not is invited to interview. That should be really irrelevant to your decision-making process.
It should not depend on whether you get an invitation to interview at the beginning or end of the evaluation process.It should not depend on whether you agree with the admissions committee’s decisions vis-à-vis others or not. It should depend on your goal. That should be your starting place and your guiding North Star throughout this process.
Furthermore, this fellow was comparing himself to other individual applicants that he knew. Please, please, please don’t do that. Just stop it. Don’t do it. It’s a big mistake. You may not see something in the other applicant that makes them highly qualified for their goal or perhaps they want to go into an area of your field for which they are well suited, and you are poorly suited and vice versa.
Your information could easily be incomplete. Alternatively, you can be completely correct about their fitness for their goal however, they did a better job than you did of presenting themselves in the application.
Let’s also face it, this is not a perfect system. There are times when somebody less deserving might be admitted than somebody who is more deserving. That’s just reality. That’s life. By blaming the system and the unfairness of it all, you relieve yourself of all responsibility as well as any agency and ability to improve and change the outcome.
That was the most troubling part of the post for me. This individual had obviously done a lot of work. I think he was a re-applicant. But when you talk about the system, in other words, vague circumstances beyond your control that are definitely out there and everybody has to deal with, you can’t do anything. You can’t change. What you need to do as an applicant, whether first-time or re-applicant and not getting interview invitations, is focus on what you can change, influence, and control to achieve your goals.
Steps to take now for your 2023 applications [13:58]If you’re a current applicant, assume rejection until you are admitted. Prepare for reapplication so that you’re constantly improving your qualifications. They’re not mutually exclusive but one will assist the other. Do everything you can to get admitted to this cycle. So can you improve your qualifications at this point, even if you’re applying now? Or if you’re beyond the point where you can improve your qualifications for this current cycle, then prepare for reapplication.
Can you improve the presentation of your qualifications if you need to reapply? Because a successful application requires good, competitive qualifications and a successful presentation of those qualifications. Did you aim too high? Should you change your target schools?
Finally, you do have to ask the question, and that is, do you still want the goal you originally set for yourself so much that you were willing to take the steps necessary to achieve it from this point in time going forward? Not what happened six months ago or a year ago, but at this point in time.
I’m going to be repeating myself here a little bit, but when or whether people you feel are worthy or unworthy receive interview invitations or acceptances – that’s something you have zero control over. Focus on what you can influence. Focus on what you can control. That’s your qualifications and your presentation of those qualifications, as well as where you apply.
So that’s my message to you as you dive into 2023. Empower yourself by focusing on what you can influence, change and, most importantly, improve.
One of the things that you can definitely influence and control completely is when you start the process. Yes, folks, it’s that time. If you plan to apply in the summer or fall of 2023 and have not started, start today. Start now. Move forward. Begin your test prep if it’s required for your particular course of study. Begin school research or advance school research. Take notes that you’ll be able to refer to. Consider journaling about your own experiences so that you will have material for essays and interviews.
Most importantly, assess which of your qualifications need improvement and start working on them and engage with an Accepted consultant as soon as possible to map out your plan and application timeline. Yes, we will work with you later in the application cycle, assuming we have availability. But you will get so much more out of the collaboration, assistance, the guidance if you engage with us early. You have no idea how starting early can improve your qualifications, your applications, and of course, the outcome.
To engage with an expert Accepted consultant, go to www.accepted.com.
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Kristin Theis-Alvarez, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the UC Berkeley School of Law, shares her insider perspective on the recent decision to withdraw from US News Rankings and describes how students can demonstrate the Berkeley ethos to secure a spot in this prestigious program. [Show Summary]Thanks for joining me for the 504th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get your assessment but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it’s all free.
I’m delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Kristin Theis-Alvarez, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the University of California Berkeley School of Law. Dean Theis-Alvarez earned her BA in Rhetoric and Native American Studies from UC Berkeley and her JD from Stanford Law, graduating from Stanford in 2000. She has been with Berkeley Law in different roles since 2007 and became Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid in 2018.
In addition to her duties at Berkeley, she’s a member of the Board of Trustees and Chair of the Diversity Equity and Inclusion Committee for the Law School Admissions Council.
Can you start by giving an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Berkeley Law JD program? [2:08]It’s a little bit challenging to encapsulate them, but I will try to hit some of them and I imagine through the rest of the questions, others may emerge.
I like to start with the first year because frankly, it’s a point of distinction between us and a lot of our peer schools. We are firm believers that there are a lot of law schools that give a really great education and it becomes more about fit and where you want to spend three years as well as what in particular you want to get out of it.
One of the places where we are different is in what we will allow people to do in the first year. You may have this idea that all of the curriculum in the first year is set and you just sort of suffer through it and then you get to do fun stuff in your second and third years. That’s the case probably in many places, but certainly not the case at Berkeley.
We made a really distinct choice, many years ago that if we’re going to recruit, and we do like to recruit students who have a strong track record of engagement, then we should allow them to be engaged and to do what they care about most. That shouldn’t take away from, but augment their experience. We will allow people to join any of the journals except California Law Reviews as first-year students.
We’ll allow students to get involved in our pro bono program, which has a number of distinct aspects, but the most well-recognized is the student-initiated legal projects, which are hands-on legal work, supervised by attorneys and community partners. First-year law students are actually doing things that make a difference like representing someone who is in the process of seeking asylum. There are over 40 of them this year.
We also let people try out for the competition team. If you’re someone who’s really passionate about moot court or mock trial and you plan to be a litigator and you want to keep doing that, you can do that in your first year.
Similarly, the curriculum is actually not nearly as fixed as it used to be. We went through curricular reform a few years ago, and we made the decision to remove property, which is typically one of the core required courses, not only as a first-year requirement but as a graduation requirement.
We also took a unit from torts and reduced it by a unit to add a unit, which sort of equates to hours in legal education to the legal research and writing program so that people were getting more practice, developing more skills, and having more examples of their writing also to enter the employment market with. Functionally, that means that there are three required courses in legal research and writing in the fall. Then in the spring, there’s only one remaining required course, plus written and oral advocacy.
Many students would choose to take constitutional law, which is a graduation requirement, but even if you do, you still have remaining units to take an elective and frankly, you could take two or three depending on the number of units. That has really opened things up. We had a lot of interesting conversations about it, but I do think it speaks to the fact that we like people who are highly specialized. These are people who want to go into patent law and don’t need to wait out for the first year to get involved in the things that they care about. They’re also people who are creative explorers looking to put together different aspects of the curriculum and have them be informed by one another from the very beginning.
Beyond that, I mean I think there’s an incredible breadth and depth of curriculum here. The faculty actually enjoy teaching, which is hard to express and sometimes sounds like a little too muchmarketing. I think Dean Chemerinsky, is a really great example of someone who’s an incredible leader and thinker, but also who loves to teach. He teaches constitutional law every spring to first-year students and usually teaches either criminal procedure or first amendment law in the fall to 2Ls and 3Ls. That really sets the tone.
The only other thing I’ll say is that I think that the education, curriculum, and opportunities at Berkeley really emphasize experiential education and interdisciplinary education. Beyond the pro bono program, we have 14 clinics, six in-house, and eight in the community. We have a really robust field placement program that includes opportunities to go to the Hague for a semester or Washington D.C. or something along those lines. You could also do it part-time and locally while taking classes. It’s sort of infused. There are all of these places you can really take what you’ve learned in the classroom and practice it in some way.
We really fundamentally believe that most of the complex legal problems in the world are not going to be solved by a single discipline if that makes sense. It makes sense to build yourself a set of courses that include environmental law and racial justice and criminal law and international law. There are problems that are cross-national, complex things like immigration driven by global climate change. Those are the kinds of thinkers that we hope to enroll and then that’s the kind of education that we hope to provide.
Does the flexibility in the curriculum enhance students’ abilities to get internships between the first and second year? [7:09]Potentially. We have a very strong law and technology or intellectual property program, for example. We’re adjacent to Silicon Valley, and also there’s a huge biotech hub in San Francisco and in the East Bay. So if there’s a firm that knows they’re looking to hire people who are going to be patent prosecutors or something along those lines, then they’re very interested in getting their hands on those students quite early. It does help that the students have had some intro to IP, patent, or something else that they can take in their first semester before they go off into a law firm to learn how to be a summer associate, which is a unique experience unto itself.
Can you touch on the grading system which is supposed to enhance collaboration and cooperation and create a positive culture at UC Berkeley Law? [8:36]
Yeah, it is fairly different. There are some other schools that have their versions of alternative grading, which I would broadly describe as just non-A through F’s.
You’re still getting evaluated. I sometimes say we give out grades, not hugs. You actually do get feedback. It’s still on a curve but the way that it works is that it’s not tied to the A through F system. So you’ll never have a GPA or a class rank. But essentially the top 10% of any given class will get an HH, which is high honors. The next 30% will get an H, which is honors, and then the remainder of the students will get a pass. It is possible to get a restricted pass or a low pass or a non-pass. It’s extremely unusual but it does exist.
There is accountability. I have some theories about this and sort of its effect on culture. I don’t know that it changes the culture in the way people think it does. Somehow people think, “Ah, I don’t have to worry about grades. I’ll just be nice now.” I don’t think that’s how it actually works. People worked really hard to get here, and they don’t stop being people who are very interested in working very hard and doing really well. Obviously, there are a lot of benchmarks along the way. Things like summer jobs and clerkships, and all of those kinds of opportunities that people are fairly focused on.
I think if you get into Berkeley, you get into a lot of great schools, usually. There’s a lot of overlap with many of our peer schools. As I mentioned in the beginning, I think it comes down to fit. So if you’ve had an experience where you were at an extremely competitive undergraduate school and you think, “Well, I’ve done that, I don’t particularly want to do it again.” One of the variables you start to look at is the culture and community variable, which is really best understood if you go to visit, rather than listening to anyone like me talk about it.
But if that is important to you as you weigh it against things like net cost or placement or bar pass or something else, then you choose based on it. If you choose based on it, you typically hold it as a value so it becomes this shared value of collaboration. We pick Berkeley for a different experience, therefore we work hard to create a different experience. There’s not a lot we as administrators could do to make people be kind.
I try to pick kind people when I’m admitting them, but it’s sort of a self-reinforcing system. What I will say about the grades is that you still will spend most of your time in the library, but you have space to say, “Well, I’m not so worried about how I’m going to do in torts. It creates a little bit of breathing room. Or people can say, “I’d like to join a journal because I’d like to work on the citations part of this and I think it’ll be helpful in my career search, et cetera.” Or “I’m not enjoying much at all about the first-year curriculum, but I came here to do workers’ rights and labor work and so I’m going to get involved in some of those projects through pro bono and it’s going to remind me kind of my why. So when I’m struggling in a particular class or just with law school and why I chose to come.”
You were quoted as saying that removing the test requirement could actually increase disparities in law school admissions. How do you see that happening? [12:50]
If anyone can’t fall asleep at night, they can go read the comments of the American Bar Association. One of them was co-written by me and a colleague at the University of Wisconsin.
It’s 19 pages long because I approached the question of whether we need a test and what the role of the test is with an attempt to be open-minded about it. Frequently we get cited as people who are opposed to getting rid of the test. People assume that somehow we’re out here on a campaign for the law school admissions council and for the test. I spent a lot of this summer frankly just doing independent research because the reality is I hadn’t thought a lot about it. I actually have a high school senior going through the college application process right now, and we’re dealing with the question of what it means to go test-optional. It’s been an interesting time. I did a ton of my own research and then wrote this lengthy memo with footnotes and all.
What really became problematic for me, as someone who reads thousands of applications every year, is that a lot of people are making rules who don’t actually do this work. One of the things that became true for me, and the research seemed to bear out is that there’s just as much disparity in GPA. That disparity in GPA is compounded by limited access for some people to more elite institutions. You get the double whammy of a GPA that might not be an exceptionally high GPA and a GPA that might not be high or is high at an institution where there’s the likelihood of bias in terms of people’s sense of the reputation of that institution.
There is research that shows that the students who were admitted test optional for undergrad were not more racially diverse, or maybe just slightly for some groups and that actually there were fewer people admitted who were low-income and first-generation college students. It actually hurt some people while maybe just slightly helping some other people. Then there’s emerging research that maybe the attrition rates and graduation rates might not be the same.
I worry a little bit about that suggesting something around mismatch, which I really struggle with. My interest is more from a reader’s perspective. We’re doing a holistic read. There are only two places where there are numbers. One is the GPA and one is a test score. If you remove test scores from the equation, I don’t know that schools are, at least initially, going to be very adept at figuring out how to do something like score personal statements or score interviews or add numbers back in, which is helpful when you’re dealing with an applicant pool of my size and creates a sense of reliance on undergraduate GPA.
That’s affected by so many things and becomes really problematic, especially as you put the questions of prestige together with the questions of performance. I was just telling someone as I was reading binding early decision applications, that this is what people don’t understand. At some schools, there were as many people, or more, admitted because of their test scores as there might have been who were not admitted because of their test scores.
I had someone apply from a small Christian college in the middle of the country. I don’t know much about it. I looked at the transcript really carefully. I read the letters of recommendation really carefully. I still was sort of not sure exactly what it meant. I’ve never seen an applicant from the school. They had an exceptionally high LSAT score. So the first and fundamental question of whether I think they could be academically successful through the combination of their performance at undergrad and LSAT, I felt fine about that. Then I moved on to things in terms of other qualifications. And that going away is going to be a challenge.
From my perspective, and I’ve also read thousands of applications at this point in time, are there definitely times when the test is going to be the piece of evidence? What if somebody worked their way through undergraduate college? Even at a public Ivy. They’re going to have struggled with some grades. But if they have the time or they focus for a little while on the test, they might test great. [17:47]
When we talk about applications, I say that applicants perceive this as a three-part test, which is, “Do I have a good enough LSAT score?,” “Do I have a good enough GPA?,” and “Do I have good enough extracurriculars?” which is not at all the endeavor that we’re engaged in. The first question is, “Do we think you can come and do the work?” The next one is, “What will you contribute beyond being a good student?” And the third is, “Are you a good fit for our institution?”
We’re very careful then to say, even with GPA, it’s much more complicated than that. It’s the academic record or history as an indicator and predictor of future success. GPA is nestled in a collection of factors that include rigor, study, age of grades, major obligations outside, division one athletes, full-time employees, people who are single parents, people who are reentry students, and so on. Also, the explanations people provide are important. They had a medical emergency. They had a death in the family. There’s all of the juicy context.
There are other kinds of patterns. They have a high GPA, but they took two classes pass/fail every single semester. There’s just all kinds of possible stuff. People somehow don’t think that’s true for the LSAT. Of course, it’s true for the LSAT. It’s why we have a prompt to say, “If you don’t believe that your test scores are indicative of your potential, tell us why. What should I be relying on instead in your record?” There are multiple test scores and patterns of cancellation, but now there are things that we don’t see which are problematic like the use of score preview, test prep programs, et cetera. And that can be trickier.
I watched the debate at the American Bar Association Council when they were discussing this and someone raised the issue of, “Why do we need to do this?” We raised this in our memo. Why do we need to do this when any school could just decide to weigh the test less? We’re told to use a test, but we’re not told how to use that test or how much importance to give it. So a school that really wants to radically depart from this idea of being driven by tests or that is really disturbed by what is a demonstrated score gap for racial minorities could simply say, “We require the LSAT per the ABA standards and we just don’t give it a lot of weight.”
The reason people don’t do that, which is a segue into your next question, I think largely has to do with US News & World Report. There was this strange piece of that conversation where someone said, “Well, maybe this will change” because they were referencing the changes the schools had announced that they weren’t going to participate in US News & World Report. It seems very strange to me to change something about the admissions process and requirements that schools and admissions professionals are saying is helpful to them because we don’t like the behavior of a third party and the influence of the third party on the schools themselves and the pressure it creates for us to emphasize something we don’t think should be emphasized.
Part of why I think it’s exciting to see schools depart from US News & World Report is because it’s taking what we have griped about for years and actually putting it out into the world. I think if we do more of that, there’s a way to keep test scores a part of the process, but lead courageously in terms of how we treat and regard those scores. But we are where we are. I’m a realist. We have two years to figure this out. The new rule, assuming it gets through the state council house of delegates will be implemented in application season ’25-’26.
Berkeley Law is no longer participating in the US News rankings. I gather you’re celebrating the fact that you won’t have to fill out those rankings reports. Are there any misgivings? [22:04]
Yeah. I just got a week of my life back, but that was not the motivation.
We can’t control what US News & World Report does, and I think they have already said pretty clearly in public that they’re going to continue to rank schools. We’re a public institution, so a lot of our information is public. In fact, we are going to form a committee to think about how we can represent on our website using some public-facing dashboards and other tools, a lot of this information, because we agree and feel that the consumer information is important and that ABA 509 reports are helpful, but it might be useful to visualize that data in a different way. It could be useful to provide more data than we would otherwise provide elsewhere.
Most of it’s going to be available. I think there are some schools right now that maybe would withdraw if not for the fact that they think the thing that helps them the most is per pupil expenditures, which is probably the only piece of data US News & World Report really can’t get its hands on without the school volunteering it.
If you’re a school saying, “Our reputational ranking and all these other things are not so great, but per pupil expenditures are exceptionally high, that’s what has pushed us into the top 20.” I can understand some real reticence to leave. Ultimately, I think ours was not a decision, and I’ll speak for myself, but from my perspective, I was an advocate for non-participation, and it was a decision that didn’t have to do with strategy.
I think if we had gone down the strategy wormhole of, “How does this help us? How might this hurt us? What are our peers doing?” then we’re still living in a world where rankings reign supreme and I’m still waking up in mid-March going, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to live and die by what someone on a website thinks of my school,” which is just silly. Part of it was this desire to not be in that world so much anymore.
We are ranked by many entities that are not US News & World Report. There are rankings on specialties. There are rankings for people who have blogs. There are rankings for people who are consultants. There are just so many ways and that’s always going to be true. But we are imbuing this particular ranking with some special significance because we’re volunteering data that wouldn’t otherwise be available and then we were railing against it or sort of complaining about it. That just seems absurd, frankly.
We didn’t make a forever decision. I don’t know how other schools have thought about that. I still personally have an issue with the fact that the methodology is entirely opaque, that the only way we can see and reverse engineer what analysis was applied is by purchasing for a fee, the full data set, and that it changes from year to year. To me, if you’re providing a tool to help people really understand clearly with transparency how to compare schools, you would need to keep the methodology stable for chunks of time and see how schools perform against that methodology.
If you change it every single year, it doesn’t actually do that anymore. I would personally love to see a commitment to make the methodology more transparent and then to hold it stable for a period of time and convene a group of deans or leaders in legal education to help inform changes periodically every three or five years to that methodology to reflect a changing environment.
I’m not going to get what I want, just to be clear. Nobody is asking me either, so that’s totally fine. But it’s been really fascinating. I really applaud the deans at Yale and at Harvard as well for going out front on this issue. We were the third school. There have been many schools that have followed both public and private. But I do think that our colleagues at those schools recognized they were in a unique position and took the initial step. Yale has never not been number one. It’s absurd if US News report suddenly ranks them 12. So I just want to give credit where credit is due. That foresight in leadership has really been transformative.
Someone asked whether or not we thought somehow this was a negotiation tactic. I actually don’t think that US News & World Report cares a ton about law schools, but it would be really problematic if undergraduate institutions or business schools chose not to participate as those schools draw from a more international audience. I think to the extent that anyone is worried that it might become a cross-discipline trend, that’s what’s likely to bring folks to the negotiation table and not just us drawing the line in the sand.
Considering the formal application deadline is February 15th and it’s now January, is it too late to apply? Are applicants at a disadvantage applying closer to the deadline? [28:30]
It’s a great question, and a question I get all the time. It’s directly related to an understanding and misunderstanding of what rolling admissions mean. We are a school that employs rolling admission, which is to say we don’t wait until February 16th to crack open 6,000 applications and try to read them in the next four weeks. We start reading them as they come in and we start making decisions as they come in.
I think people are right to suspect that as a pure numbers game, their “chances” look worse in February. Picture the lines on a graph. In September, we have very few applicants, and all of those 800-900 spots that we’re going to offer. Over time we start filling those seats. Then the line for applicants isn’t a straight line up, it’s more like a bumpy line that has a lot to do with LSAT administration and score releases. What is absolutely true is that we get a spike at the end of the cycle as people approach the deadline. If your odds are 100 apps and 800 spots in September, that looks pretty good. If your odds are 2,000 apps and 100 spots in February, that doesn’t look so good.
We would be terrible at our job if we said, “We have an application deadline on February 15th, but we’re just done admitting people on January 15th,” or something along those lines. We know that there are good applicants that are coming. We know that there are people for whom something happened in their test administration in November and they really feel like they need to take the January test to show us what their true ability is. We know that there are people who don’t have access to the same kind of pre-law advising that explains some of this to them and the benefits of applying early. We absolutely have space in the class in February. It would also be very silly of me to admit someone who I didn’t think was a great person for Berkeley, simply because they applied in October or to deny someone who was amazing simply because they applied in February.
When you zoom out to the 10,000-foot view, there is an impact. When I am in a given person’s application, there isn’t an impact. If I read someone who got assigned to me on the 15th and I was reading them on the 20th and I knew we have no space but they were amazing, I would say, “Well Dean Chemerinsky, we’re going to be a person over.” Because we’d want them. So in that sense, I don’t think people need to stress about it impacting them directly.
In the world of law admissions, there are only so many things that people can control. You can’t control what you did as an undergrad and what your LSAC or GPA are but you can control when you apply. What we tend to tell people is that because that’s something that you can control and because there’s at least the potential for a little bit of benefit earlier in the cycle, we encourage you to apply at the earliest point at which you have your strongest application prepared. That’s the general advice.
The second part of this question we get is if we’re going to run out of money. We do both initial gift aid offers and a process called reconsideration. Even if you didn’t get an initial gifted offer, it wouldn’t be because of the time you applied, but if you did, you could still request reconsideration, which doesn’t open until mid-March after our admit weekend. That’s a separate set of money and we plan for this phased approach. There are absolutely scholarships available to someone who applied on February 15th and got admitted.
Who should apply via the binding early decision program? Does it have a higher acceptance rate than a regular decision? [32:33]
It’s a timely question as we sent out decisions yesterday. Our binding early decision program requires some things. It requires you to apply by mid-November. It requires you to have taken an LSAT or a test no later than sort of October so we can get your scores in. It requires you to write an essay describing why you applied to Berkeley. It requires you to sign a binding early decision agreement signifying that you actually understand what you’re entering into, which is to say that if you are accepted, you are firmly committed to attending Berkeley and you must withdraw your application from everywhere else where you’ve applied even if you haven’t received a decision.
On the flip side, I feel really strongly that one of the more inequitable things in admissions, in general, is binding early decision programs that take a fair number of people, particularly at the undergraduate level, but do not offer non-loan financial support at that time.
When I launched this program a few years ago, we launched it with a $25,000 scholarship award. We didn’t just make that number up. $25,000 per year, or $75,000 total, was the number tied to the average award of anyone admitted the previous year. I could say with a straight face that you were not at a financial disadvantage. You were guaranteed, in fact, what had been the average award for any student. Sure, you’ll never know whether you might have gotten a larger award but we’re not trying to trick people into committing because I think they need the benefit of the admission. This year we upped that to $30,000 because last year’s average scholarship award was closer to $29,000. Because we’ve tied those two together, we made that adjustment.
Is that award regardless of need? [34:35]
Yes, and people can apply for need later in the spring and we will increase awards.
To answer your question of who should apply, people who know that Berkeley is absolutely their first choice. They don’t need to know if they got into other schools. They don’t need the option to stay closer to home. They don’t need a full ride or aren’t counting on one. I tend to think of it as people who would come to Berkeley for nothing. The fact that they can come to Berkeley and get a $90,000 scholarship spread over three years, they’re over the moon about that.
I don’t think that most people can apply by an early decision and say, “Oh, I’m just so relieved to be done on December 6th and I don’t need to know whether if I would’ve gotten into those other 15 schools and I don’t need to know if I would’ve gotten a full ride somewhere.” I think we’ve built a great program and I also think that you should approach all binding early decision programs as an applicant with a lot of skepticism about whether it’s the right thing for you. You’re giving something up when you are committing so that’s a really important consideration.
To answer your question about admit rate, it varies. I don’t have a set number that I must or may not admit. We’ve admitted between 35 and 60. It just depends on the caliber of the applicant and not on a fixed sort of number in terms of how many people we’re trying to enroll through that program.
Last year the number was lower than the overall admit rate, which was 12%. We took only 35 last year and I think the admit rate was about 10%. This year the admit rate is about 13.5% because we took a larger group although we also had 100 more applicants than in the past. It varies, but it’s about the average admit rate plus or minus a percentage point on either side.
Berkeley Law accepts the LSAT or the GRE and occasionally the GMAT. Approximately what percentage of the applicant pool is applying with the GRE or the GMAT? [37:29]
Oh, it’s small. This cycle is the first time we’ve accepted the GRE with no questions asked.
We took the GRE in the past as a pilot program like we take the GMAT. Because the numbers are so small, it’s hard to study how those people have actually performed. We only accepted the tests from people who were applying to a joint degree program or who had taken the test in the last few years for the purpose of applying to another masters or PhD program.
That kept the numbers very, very small. I can’t tell you this year how many people will apply with the GRE. I expect it to be more. We are going to have to look back at the cycle and crunch the numbers. Right now my eyes are seeing a lot of GRE score reports, but it’s also because we’re requiring you to send the GRE score report even if you have an LSAT. If you took the GRE because they were required for the ABA to report the scores of people who took either or both tests even if we didn’t use it for admission.
I’m seeing a ton of them, but if they’re applying with LSAT, we really consider them LSAT test takers. There will be a little number crunching that has to be done and the question of how many people were GRE applicants versus how many people were GRE plus LSAT applicants is unclear at this stage.
One of the things that’s fascinating is proponents of the GRE, or just maybe of expanded test options. They don’t think the LSAT is the end all be all in a variety of ways. I think there are some applicants who think, “I’ve heard the LSAT is really hard. I took the GRE. Well, maybe that’s better.” What’s fascinating is that the LSAT is just a score across all of the three sections that are scored when you take the test.
With the GRE, we get subsection scores. There’s actually much more data for us which could be good or not good for someone. I could say, “I’m not so worried that you didn’t score in the 97th percentile in the quantitative section, but I’m pretty worried that you only scored in the 50th percentile in writing.” Suddenly I know that as opposed to the LSAT writing sample, which is unscored. There are some interesting pros and cons at work and it has been fascinating to see more data.
Do you have any suggestions for how applicants should choose which test to take and submit? [40:15]
My general advice right now, and obviously, this advice is only good from 2023 to 2025 is that I would take the LSAT, if it were me or if I were advising my kid. The plain reality is that not all schools accept the GRE and far fewer except the GMAT. If you’re making a pure choice, unless your list of schools is exclusively GRE-accepting schools and unless you feel like you can get your hands on some data that helps you understand how your GRE score compares to people who’ve been admitted at that school with a GRE, which is also elusive, I think that you’re wise to take the LSAT. It’s just more portable.
You could apply to a bunch of schools and then think, “This seems like a competitive cycle. I might want to apply to a few more schools.” There are things you just can’t know. And if there are those few schools that don’t take the GRE, then you’re signing up for the LSAT in January or in March. That can be really problematic.
What’s your number one tip for the personal statement? [41:27]
I’m going to say: keep it personal.
Don’t write about a student in your second-grade class that you’re teaching. Tell your story. I am not especially interested in a description of where you are right now and where you plan to go. You should think about the personal statement as more like a proxy for an interview.
I’m very interested in you telling me something about your journey to this point and with a certain amount of momentum, that feels like you going to law school is the necessary and inevitable conclusion of that tale. Tell me how you grew up, why you care about the things that you care about, the way that you see the world, and how that lens has been shaped by personal experiences. People can talk about their childhood. People can talk about something they did in college. People can talk about work, but ultimately we’re trying to learn more about you.
The metaphor I sometimes use is rounds of interviews. The first interview for a job is to look at your resume. Does this person seem qualified? That’s not your personal statement. That’s other aspects of your application. And then I invite you in for an interview in my office, and you’re wearing a suit, and it’s very formal. I have your resume and I am sort of checking if you have the skills. There are some generic questions, but if you got over that hurdle, the next thing I’d probably do is try to set up an hour where we could meet for coffee, or you could meet with me and my team for lunch. In that moment, you would not probably be dressed in a suit, nor would I, and we would be talking about very different things. “Where did you grow up? What interests you about this? I’m just so curious about how you came to want to work in admissions. Tell me more about that.”
That’s the conversation that I think the personal statement is attempting to simulate. If you are extremely business-like and it’s not particularly personal, you’re really operating the space of that in-office interview. I just don’t get to know you as well, and it would be unlikely if I were selecting someone for a job here that I would pick the person who I didn’t know as well.
I sometimes refer to admissions deans as the keepers of the culture. We’re responsible for 85% of the people in the building so we really care about knowing who you are in some way. We don’t have interviews, at least not at this time. This is it. This is your shot. If there’s something that you need to say, say it.
Do you encourage applicants to submit addenda and are there any addenda that you prefer to see? [45:12]
I would maybe break the group that you’re referencing up into two or three categories. One would be optional statements, and for us that’s the why Berkeley statement and the diversity statement, which is what you will contribute in terms of diversity. Those are very helpful as supplements to your personal statement.
Your personal statement should be the foundation and everything else is helpful information that surrounds it and enhances or deepens our understanding of some elements of it. I really enjoy reading either or both of those. Our personal statement is up to four pages, which is fairly unusual. I will say that there are people who will write a four-page personal statement that does the work of also answering the questions of why Berkeley and what will they bring in terms of diversity and how is that shaped their viewpoint in their personal statements. That’s why they’re optional. It’s not a strict requirement, but especially if you’ve written a shorter personal statement that you’re maybe using for more than one school, I would encourage you to write the optional statements.
There are required addenda for character, fitness, and prior matriculation. There is also an optional addendum that asks, “If you don’t believe that your academic record GPA or LSAT scores test scores are indicative of your potential for success, please tell us why and what is.” Then there’s just the world of broad addenda, which is things I didn’t ask for, and you want to send me. If you think about it that way and you narrowly constrain addenda as things I didn’t ask for, but you want to send me, that list is probably pretty short. I don’t actually really want to receive your honor thesis or your photography portfolio or something along those lines that’s just not going to be helpful in my analysis.
But I do think that if there’s something that we should know, especially when understanding something related to your work experience or lack thereof, your academic history and your test scores, then you really should find a place to put it. In all likelihood, that’s an addendum that is not taking up space in any of your other statements.
Do you like to see work experience that is closely related to law working in a legal office or legal clinic? [47:41]
We like to see experience. I have no preference for it being law-related. I think there’s a tendency to think that being a paralegal or doing an internship at a law firm is somehow going to be the cherry on top of your application, and that’s just not the case. Oftentimes, when you’re at a law firm, what you’re really doing is very mundane and not very interesting work whatsoever. Other times it might be quite dynamic and interesting.
Fundamentally, we really do like people with experience. I don’t care if it’s experience accrued in undergraduate. There’s no requirement that it be a postgraduate experience. Have you been busy? What do you do with your time? Is it leadership? Is it campus involvement? Is it helping your family run a business? What, beyond being a student, do you do?
That kind of goes to that second question I referenced. What will you contribute beyond being a good student? For a lot of people that is post-graduate experience. Sometimes that’s also in getting a master’s degree or getting a teaching credential. Sometimes it’s people who have traveled, taught English in another country, or just taken a break from law school.
Mainly, I’m very interested in knowing that the class is going to be full of people who have a track record of engagement and who are the kind ofpeople who will take action.
That’s kind of the Berkeley ethos, the” let’s do something about it” attitude. Demonstrating that you’re someone who has had that draw to do something is helpful. You could be a 20-year-old undergraduate who fulfills that, absolutely and you could be someone who has been working in organic farming and community organizing for three years and has realized that the way they want to make a change in the world is to get a law degree. That’s also very reasonable.
You have a JD so you obviously applied to law school. What would you today tell your applicant self if you could? [50:23]
That’s a good question. What I often say when asked what I would tell people that I didn’t know at the time, but really worked out for me, was to not listen to people who tell you that your chances are non-existent or that you have no right applying to that school.
I had the benefit of ignorance. I just applied to the schools that I thought I would love to be at. I liked what they offered. Their faculty seemed great. Their programs were a good fit for me and I went for it. It worked out fine. I just think there are so many people now whose lists are constrained by their perception or other people’s perception of whether or not they can be admitted.
If I had to tell myself something back then, it actually probably would’ve been not to be just as interested in schools around ranking as frankly, I was, which is ironic. We do grow and change, Linda.
It’s like me telling people who were stressed about jobs, “I promise you your first legal job will not be your last legal job. You’re not signing a contract forever.” So I had some options and I chose the school, which was a great school, but a school I think at the time that was number two in the country. I had a really lovely time, but also many things about legal education have changed.
There were very few people that grew up in a very low-income household, which I did. I didn’t really think about that as a variable. It was a little bit challenging for me to suddenly be in an environment with people who were third-generation graduates at the school. There were some variables I wish I had thought about and sort of kicked the tires a little bit more around what I was looking for. Part of that, to be clear, was my own lack of experience, ironically. I applied to law school at 21 and went directly from undergrad.
The advice I would give to anyone now would be to take some time off. Law school will still be there. You’ll only be a better applicant for waiting a little bit. But I didn’t ask some of the questions that I now try really hard to counsel people to ask even if it means they don’t pick Berkeley. Who do you want to be around for three years? What kind of environment are you looking for? Where do you see yourself ultimately ending up, et cetera.
It felt very strange to even contemplate at the time saying no to a school that was that school. That probably is true for a lot of people now but I had many other really good options and I think had I made a less reflexive or automatic decision, I might have had a different experience.
Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask? [54:03]
Your questions are fantastic.
I think one question that should get asked more in general is, “Are your students happy?” I cannot say that every student at Berkeley is…I mean, it’s also finals and it’s a terrible time to ask. Nobody is happy right now. But I think that we, as an industry, produce far too many unhappy attorneys. There’s a study that said something like 70% of attorneys wouldn’t recommend the profession.
I think if we figured out a way, whether it’s through rankings or elsewhere, to think about how we determine whether students are happy, even if things are really hard and they’re challenged, that we would be better served not just as legal educators but as members of the profession. This is an incredibly important profession and it requires a certain amount of stamina, and stamina can be fed by anxiety or joy. I think we should work for it to be fed more by joy.
Where can listeners learn more about Berkeley Law? [55:32]
I would go to our main website, www.law.berkeley.edu and poke around to see what we have to offer.
Related links:
- Berkeley Law Admissions
- Are You Ready for Law School? (Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz)
- 5 Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Law School Application Essays
Related shows:
- How to Get Into Georgetown Law | Accepted
- Duke Law Interview with Dean Mark Hill
- UVA Law interview with Dean Blazer
- USC Gould Law School Interview with Dean Kirschner
- UCLA Law School: How to Get Accepted
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Learn what you can do to prepare for your future employment [Show Summary]Diana Economy, former Head of Admissions at Michigan Ross and Senior Talent Acquisition Manager at Vail Resorts, offers her unique perspective on how students can prepare for future employment even while applying to or completing an MBA program.
Interview with Diana Economy, former Head of Admissions at Michigan Ross and Senior Talent Acquisition Manager at Vail Resorts [Show Notes]Welcome to the 501st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. I hope you tuned into our very special 500th episode last week. If not, you can still catch it.
You’ve seen the stats that most people have a great return on their MBA investment, but what about you? Are you going to see that kind of return? How much will it be? How much can you anticipate? We’ve created a tool that will help you assess whether the MBA is going to be a good investment for you. Just go to accepted.com/mbaroicalc, complete the brief questionnaire, and you’ll not only get an assessment but also the opportunity to calculate different scenarios. And it’s all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk, Diana Economy, Senior Talent Acquisition Manager – Programs and International for Vail Resorts, and formerly the Director of Full-Time MBA Admissions at Michigan Ross. After graduating with a BA in Organization Studies from the University of Michigan, Diana worked in talent management for companies like Kearney and Kirkland & Ellis. She returned to Ross and earned her MBA in 2010, and then again worked for Kirkland & Ellis and BCG before returning to Ross as Associate Director of Admissions. She was the Director of Admissions for the Michigan Ross Full-Time MBA program from 2017 until just this past July when Diana joined Vail Resort.
Before we get into the interview, I have to ask how’s the skiing? [2:35]Oh my gosh, Linda, I have never thought so much about snow. It’s going well so far. It’s always kind of fun to hear as the resorts are beginning to get the snow and opening. Especially in the work that we do with talent acquisition, a lot of folks are starting over the course of the next month. It’s a really exciting time in the industry.
What is the common thread between recruiting MBA students and recruiting talent for Vail Resorts? [3:16]It’s really interesting, given the cyclical nature of the admissions cycle and, of course, the cyclical nature of the ski season. A lot of our resorts are open through the summer as well, but no question that we’re hitting the Super Bowl timeframe of the operations. As I think about what I learned from my time in admissions, as well as working in talent acquisition and the kinds of things that we look for in our employees, I really find that people who have a good sense of who they are and how they can contribute, those qualities translate both to admissions committees and to our guests.
If any of you have been to ski resorts or resorts in general and you think about the people that you interact with, whether it’s somebody who’s running the lift or doing these other things, they’re very engaging, they’re very natural in doing that. Of course, an MBA is doing a very different type of work and a different skill set is required to get into the MBA program. But there’s something to be said about those who thrive in an MBA program and their ability to build those connections and have the ability to impact and influence those around them that I see as very fluid between both the MBA admissions and recruiting that I did and what we look for in great talent at Vail Resorts.
I find your focus on contribution very interesting, especially when you talk about networking, because networking has such a strong connotation of “what’s in it for me.” [4:46]You’re right. When we’re reading applications and admissions, one of the things you’re thinking about is “Who is this person going to be when they’re sitting in the classroom? What kind of contribution are they going to make there? Who is this person when they’re on a team of people where there’s no leader on the team, and everybody has to work together to figure out how to get to the output for the class assignment? Who is this person at 10 o’clock at night?” MBA programs are not like a 9:00 to 5:00 job where you go home, and you’re somebody else. It’s very fluid. There are a lot of social experiences, academic experiences, career, and cultural experiences, and I think moving in and out of those experiences and being authentic and natural to who you are, as well as open-minded to learn from those around you is very important.
How do you suggest people choose where to apply and, if accepted, where to attend among multiple acceptances? [6:04]This is an interesting question in light of something you and I have been talking about online, which is law schools not using rankings anymore. I think a common answer here might be that a lot of people look to the rankings first to figure out where to apply. Something I’ve always said is that rankings, or anything else, need to go much deeper than that. One of the things that I think COVID brought forward for candidates is the many ways to engage with schools now. They used to wait for an admissions officer to come to their country or location, and they’d only come once, and this was the one chance to interact with a school. Maybe there were a few virtual events, but students were really relying on a website.
Now, there are so many virtual office hours, engagement opportunities, and on-demand content that are really prescriptive about what the experience is going to be like. I know at Michigan Ross, we had over 300 student ambassadors, and you could filter by their background, their interests, and where they were from. I always told people that if, at minimum, they just read the student ambassador bios on our site, they were going to get a really good idea of who’s in that program and the people they’d be learning with.
To hear firsthand about that directly from the people that are part of that community is invaluable and certainly goes well beyond the rankings. You’ll find the school if you’re listening for the right things. I would tell you as you’re taking notes, if you created a spreadsheet, the things that are important to me and I’d recommend you to write down are who you talked to and how you felt after. Not just what you heard from them, but did you enjoy that conversation? Would you want to speak to somebody else at that school? I think a lot of times if you talk to the one person at any given school that’s very much like you, you’re probably going to hear what you would expect to hear. But it’s in that second or third or fourth conversation with somebody else that might have different interests that you get some perspective. Are you hearing some similar themes with the way that the students react to the program? I think it’s in that voice that you’re hearing about the experience they’re articulating that you start to understand your own fit.
I’m not defending the rankings here, but I’ve always viewed them as stores of data. In that sense, they served a function and they were valuable. But as rankings, I think they were named for sales purposes and marketing purposes, and they worked in that sense. But they were terribly misnamed. [9:23]Very misnamed. They started at a time when people had much more limited access to data and information. You’re right, the number of students I find who don’t spend time thinking about what the rankings measure and compare them against their own value set. If you take a look at the US News, it’s 25% of admissions data. What does that really mean? It means GMAT, GPA, and a little bit on selectivity, how many people you’re selecting in with the number that have applied. That’s it. Otherwise, it’s what other deans think about your school and what recruiters think of your students. It’s not about job satisfaction, but what job did you get? Did you get it in a timely manner? And how much money are you making as a result?
If you care about the diversity of people in the classroom around you, that ranking doesn’t really measure that. There are so many pieces that people prioritize that are just not considered in the ranking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAFRl9PsRDIWhat’s the most common mistake that you think applicants make in the process? [11:08]I think a lot of people think there’s a right answer for a school’s essay questions, and they Google it. They’ll search, “What is the right answer to school X’s essay questions?” and they use this external perspective to help inform their story. Now, it’s one thing to use this perspective to guide generally around themes, but if you do that and your own personal self-reflection is absent, the essays come across very generically. It comes across as “I’m writing what I think they want to hear” versus “I’m writing what I’m truly passionate about.”
I would say, whether an essay question asks you this or not, and probably most do not, I would answer the question for yourself of what you’re passionate about and why. I don’t think we give ourselves enough opportunity to have that exploration. What makes your heart race and makes you so excited to want to do it? What does that look like for you? I think if you hone in on these things, they’ll really come across in your essays.
There are more similarities than there are differences in post-MBA jobs. There’s a reason that a variety of industries recruit from the same type of program. I think if you understand what you’re driven by, that’s going to still be there. Once you get your MBA, you’re just going to get this toolkit around you that’s going to allow you to direct those interests and passions in a way that’s going to be most beneficial to you and to the company. I think people are surprised to realize that what the tech industry is looking for, what the consulting industry is looking for, and what they’re looking for in brand management are more similar than different. That last 20% to 30% that makes those roles different can be a material difference for you if you are self-aware of how you want to apply your skill set and the kind of environment or roles that might benefit from that.
How do you recommend students maximize their MBA experience and investment with employability in mind? [13:39]Every job that I’ve had post-MBA, I have gotten because of my network. Largely because of my MBA network. At Vail Resorts, I am working for two alums whom I love, who have done very well at Vail and who have painted this picture of what could be there. It wasn’t just the relationship that got me in the door, but it was their confidence and the way that they were articulating what the company has meant to them and how they have grown personally and professionally.
It helps that I had that conversation with somebody who knows me as well. It wasn’t just the network that opened the door, it was the further conversations that we had that allowed me to better understand my fit with the company and what that could look like going forward. That’s why I say when you talk to student ambassadors or alumni, you are really investing in a network for life. Not all networks are created equally. There’s a good bit of similarity between the top MBA programs and their networks, but there are some differences too. I think that’s up to candidates to explore through the set of conversations during the admissions process.
It sounds to me like you not only had a network, you had relationships. [15:18]You got it. That’s an important distinction. I’m glad you said that because you’re right, people think of networking as self-serving. Nobody’s going to remember you if you’re just a number. They’re not going to pick up the phone quite as easily as they would if they had a real connection with you.
I saw in Poets&Quants this week, John Byrne published an article that argues the decline in MBA applications over the last couple of years is not a cyclical downturn due to the type of job market but really a reset due to the increasing cost of the MBA. What’s your take? [15:50]That’s a good question. I will say COVID was such a weird timeframe for schools with this huge fluctuation in applications. I think candidates were trying to figure out their stability and what was happening next. As we see these tech layoffs now, I think there’s a new wave of what’s next. I will say that I’m hopeful. I think this is a boost in the need for innovation in the MBA program. I don’t think it’s a move away from the MBA program. I’m hoping it’s a bit of a call to action for schools to continue to innovate and grow and build with the market to get candidates what they need. I think in this new environment where candidates are expecting and craving more flexibility and more specialization and customization to the needs that they have, the schools are well prepared, especially with the academic customizations and things that you can do through an MBA program.
I think the next question for MBA programs, especially for a two-year residential program, is going to be whether or not it needs to be two full years. How many months are needed with your cohort to be able to build the relationships that you need to sustain your career? I will say after two years, you have very, very deep relationships. As the world has evolved, people want to get to the job market a little bit sooner. They want to be able to make money. Is there a hybrid experience that still allows you to engage with your cohort at some point? Maybe it’s just the final semester or some period of your second year that gives candidates that flexibility to be able to get the cohort experience, get the education that they need, but also start to try out these skills maybe a little sooner so that they can continue to build and grow those skills.
You can see it in the second year that folks will say, “I have a job lined up in 10 months, but I could be making some money now to help to offset some of these costs.” What does that look like? I’ll tell you, at Michigan Ross, there’s a strong focus on experiential learning. There are a lot of opportunities for students to take on very experiential opportunities. I presume that that has started to move more towards some paid opportunities that students are doing complimentary to their MBA experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2sTrDd9EsUWhen you’re hiring for management positions at Vail Resorts, what are you looking for? [19:06]In my role at Vail, I work on the talent acquisition strategy or the things that make talent acquisition go. When I’m doing international recruiting, it’s actually mostly students. It’s more similar than it is different to the work that I did at Ross. Having said that, I see some similarities, especially as you look for executives. As I talk to friends in other industry spaces, there’s this notion that somebody needs to be able to come in and be resilient and adaptable because everybody can say, “Okay, I’ve developed a set of hard skills, and I can run these reports and do these spreadsheets and manage these technical skills,” but I think businesses are changing so fast. Vail acquired a ton of resorts in the last 10 or 15 years. They went from a handful of resorts to 40+ resorts.
It’s not just the tech industry where you see this evolution of what the new business looks like. It’s other industries that maybe didn’t have as much change in the past that could be accelerating that change. A lot of businesses are looking for you to be adaptable to that. I think change is uncomfortable and a little scary for folks but I think the MBA is a great playground, if you will, for change. It’s a great space to try new things and adapt and flex those skills such that you can demonstrate them to employers. That’s probably what’s going to differentiate these laid-off tech workers. A lot of them have a technical skill set. Probably some are a little better than others, but let’s say most of them are more similar than they are different. What’s going to differentiate them? It might be their relationships or their ability to demonstrate that they can pivot and adapt to change.
How can career changers enhance their chances of making the pivot they hope to make even before they’re accepted to school? Maybe I’m computer programming and I want to go into general management and want to apply to an MBA program in the fall. What steps can I take now that will help me make that change? [21:55]We’re in November, so candidates might be applying now for next September. You mentioned that maybe they have some interest in general management or brand management or whatever the case is. There’s an inkling that they have developed, whether it’s through their own professional experience or otherwise, from hearing more about these other professions about what that future could look like. They’re starting to visualize themselves in that future. They’re starting to put together a career goal essay. They’re already thinking about that right now. I think there are so many ways to learn about what that future could look like. I know that Ross, over the course of the last month, just did a bunch of webinars, a full hour on why Ross for healthcare, why Ross for marketing, and why Ross for data and analytics.
Not only are you going to learn how that school is going to help prepare you to get into that field, but you’re also going to hear directly from people about what they did during their internships and why they chose the companies they did. That’s one small piece of a lot of this knowledge that’s out there about what these career paths really look like.
If you apply next fall, you’re literally only 12-14 months from doing your internship interview. I think people don’t realize that that starts in maybe December or January of your first year. You are a year away from needing to demonstrate a set of skills to a future employer. I think if you have some clarity around those skills and some space within your current job, this is the time to seek out a stretch project or experience that’s going to allow you to acquire a specific resume bullet or, at a minimum, bring more direct, applicable experience into an interview.
What’s a common misconception about the hiring process and talent acquisition? [24:52]I’m going to build from the first year of that MBA experience because I think for prospective MBA applicants, they don’t realize just how early the recruiting process starts. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a misconception, but just something that maybe there’s not as much awareness on. Just to give some context, a lot of schools over the course of the summer do a substantial amount so that when you hit the ground on day one of school, you probably have already had a lot of prep and focus on what your career path is intended to be. I think people think the MBA is two full years to explore. Do people go on one path on the internship and then change for their full-time job? Maybe. But I think it surprises people how fast that process happens.
Once you get into the networking period, which could be happening over the course of several months, and even into the interviews, the misconceptions that I see around the actual job process or experience is that people feel they have to be a certain way. Especially with consulting, companies looking for client-ready candidates. If you are only telling them about your data and analytics skills and not about your ability to build a team or relationships or develop a relationship with a client, they’re not going to pick you.
I think a misconception is just honing in on what they believe to be a particular skill. They do value that skill, but they value well-roundedness too. You have to make sure that you’re pulling in those stories to show the other parts of who you are. I will say if you went to engineering school and you are an engineer or have been in a technical role, you must, in the admissions process for in the networking and interview process for recruiting, demonstrate something other than your engineering skills and technical background. Show the ability for small talk.
You and I see this is different for international students too. It is really culturally different when international candidates from different parts of the world come, and they realize that the first five minutes of the conversation might be about the Michigan football game or about something that’s happening in the world or a variety of things that have nothing to do with the job. That takes practice. Again, it’s hard for Americans too, but in particular, there are nuances for international candidates. The schools work very closely to try to make sure that those cultural nuances translate and that the candidates are ready.
Do you think the withdrawal of Harvard, Yale, and Berkeley Law from the US News rankings are going to spill into business school? [28:19]I do and I’ll tell you some of the other trends that we saw that maybe took business school a little bit longer to catch onto. You saw test waivers happening earlier than the MBA programs were bringing those forward. It was for equity reasons, and they did it across campus. I think there’s something to be said if an action is taking place on your campus. It raises the awareness of the deans around you. You can bet that the deans of Harvard, Yale, and Berkeley Law schools talk to the deans of the business schools there. They do. They get together from time to time. It’s just the nature of how deans stay connected, interacted, and engaged. I am confident that the conversation will continue to evolve.
When the MBA programs or business schools decide to pull out, I think is an interesting point. If you’re a Yale or a Harvard, that’s a little bit different than the school that’s ranked number 27, deciding to do the same thing first. The domino effect, when it starts at the top, can sometimes move a little bit faster. I’ll be intrigued to see what happens here in the coming weeks.
I think the same question could be asked about test waivers. [29:35]When we started our test waiver at Michigan Ross, the top schools didn’t do it. It was a lot of discussion about what it would mean for the school. How do we maintain quality? What does it look like? What measures are we looking at for success? We also did it at a point at which people were saying, “I cannot get to a test center to be able to take the test.” Or, “I live in an environment that’s not great for me to have four dedicated hours to be able to take this test and perform my best.” When we heard that, we made adjustments based on the candidates’ situation. I’ll be honest, we made those adjustments thinking, “Well, we’re going to try this right now.” It was situational in the moment. We gathered data along the way and we now have data that says people that have the test waiver did well in the classroom. People that have the test waiver are still getting good job outcomes.
At Michigan Ross, it’s still only like 80% have the test and 20% do not. There are a number of candidates who choose to take the test as an added demonstration of their candidacy or maybe build up a deficiency they feel they have. It is still the case that a lot of people are taking tests. It’s probably because a lot of schools still require the test. They’re applying to schools where they need a test, but even as we move into this post-COVID world, Michigan Ross has continued their test waiver. We’ll see if that continues. But it’s in a new environment, and I think the fact that we saw some demonstrated success from it. There are other measures that we can take a look at to be able to determine both candidacy as well as scholarship.
How can someone get a job at Vail Resorts? [31:59]That’s a good question. There are so many jobs, Linda. This is one of those environments where I get a chance to work with people who run the mountains. They run lift operations or the tickets or the rental business or all these things. It’s fascinating to me just because there’s such amazing diversity of talent in the work that we are all doing collectively to make this a great place. One of the things that drew me to Vail was that we’re looking to create an experience of a lifetime for our customers and for our employees. For me, what I see is a drive and a passion for the people around me, whether it’s doing great work for the guests or whether it is how we support our employees.
You can imagine, during ski season, how many guests we’re getting and all the things that are happening. But we’re also thinking about how we can support employees’ growth and success. If you’re looking to work for Vail, it comes back to this drive to both bring the experience of a lifetime to our guests and an experience of a lifetime to our employees. If that motivates you, I think that that passion comes through, and you can figure out the opportunities within that will ultimately lead towards similar objectives.
Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask you? [33:28]I don’t want people to be worried that the MBA is going away. I say that meaning people have to make their own assumptions and things about that. But I look at it as such a transformational experience. Like his experience of a lifetime for our employees and guests, that’s what the MBA is too. It’s an experience of a lifetime for students. I know that we hit on a theme of whether or not the MBA is still valuable. The MBA is what you make it. I think that when you go into that experience, if you’re mindful of what you want to get out of that experience and have a focus, it can be life-changing and truly transformational. I would say the question that I wish you would’ve asked is what else candidates should know about this great experience. Beyond the classes, MBA students are having incredible experiences, like going to a wedding in India with 50 of their classmates because one of their classmates is getting married. How often have you done that in your professional life, right? There are just going to be experiences that come up that you really can’t replicate outside of this very intensive, focused environment with so many great people around you. I hope you consider applying and I hope you consider applying to Michigan Ross.
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- Michigan Ross MBA Essay Tips and Deadline
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- Accepted’s MBA Admissions Consulting Services
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- University of Michigan’s Ross MBA Program: Everything You Need to Know
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- How to Get Accepted to UNC Kenan-Flagler Full-Time MBA Program
- The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED!
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Invaluable insights into all aspects of the graduate admissions process [Show Summary]In celebration of Admissions Straight Talk’s 500th episode, Linda Abraham invites Accepted consultants to pose and answer the questions that students should be asking – and frequently don’t ask. This conversation is filled with invaluable insights that will benefit anybody preparing for graduate school.
Accepted consultants share invaluable insights into the questions that students should be asking [Show Notes]Welcome to the 500th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. This is a very special episode. It’s the 500th, and I am very proud of that. We’ve been working hard to present a particularly informative show. I’ve invited different Accepted consultants over the course of the past few weeks to respond to one question that each one believes applicants should ask and know the answer to. And they frequently don’t ask and, therefore, never learn the answer. So this is a collection of clips with different consultants – all experienced experts in their area of admissions – addressing different issues. I think you’ll find it invaluable as you apply. I’ve been finding it very interesting to hear what they’re asking and also what they’re answering.
I’m going to start with a question right now. What is the paradox at the heart of graduate admissions? I’ll tell you, you need to fit in and stand out. You can learn how to master that paradox by downloading Accepted’s free guide, Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions.
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Let’s start with our first guest, Cydney Foote, who is one of Accepted’s most experienced and, consequently, most beloved consultants. Before joining Accepted in 2001, Cydney was an administrator at the University of Washington School of Medicine. She has also written three ebooks on med school admissions, and she’s guided hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants to acceptance, mostly in the healthcare field.
The question for Cydney is: What’s a useful tool that applicants can and should use no matter what stage of the application process they’re in? [2:57][Cydney Foote] I think one of the most useful things that someone can do before they even start to write their application materials is to keep a journal. It sounds very simple. It sounds like something a little kid would do, but so many people will sit down to write their first question and they don’t know what to write about. If you keep a journal for the months, or even the years, before you start writing [applications], you can flip back through it and see what you’ve done. Often, you’ll see patterns arising from things that you enjoyed and things that you did well. It’s kind of the way that the universe is nudging you towards a certain area. A lot of that can just slip by you in your daily life as you’re running from one event to the next. If you’ll write it down just five minutes a day, then you’ll have a whole wealth of material to go back on and look through later.
Another really good reason to journal is that it helps you support your claims. This is one of the most severe flaws that I see in a lot of people’s writing in their first drafts is they will make claims about things that they did like, “I am a great team player,” “I’m a great leader,” or “I am a great communicator,” but without the examples to support that, there’s nothing that will help the person who’s reading the application believe that you are that. It’s not that they necessarily disbelieve you, but they don’t have anything to reference. If you have something written down, those examples can be used to support your claims, and it will just make your application process so much more powerful, compelling, and convincing.
There’s also a final reason for doing this. When you start to write your application, especially for medical school, but for any field, you’re going to be doing a lot of writing. If you’re not used to doing that on a daily basis, which you probably aren’t if you’re a science major, it can be difficult. If you will just take five minutes a day and start exercising your writing muscle, it will make the rest of the process feel so much easier when you finally dive in.
That’s great advice. In terms of what to include in the journal entries, do you recommend just focusing on what happened or perhaps what they learned from it? [5:22][Cydney Foote] I think both are useful. I think that a lot of people start out just writing about their daily activities: something that impressed them that they saw in the ER, something that a clinician did that they thought was really neat or that they said to them. It can be anything. But those concrete examples are really important in my opinion. As you start to break out and get more comfortable with writing, then I think you’ll start to notice things about what you think but it depends on how reflective you are as a person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvSSytZ8ZrI____________________________________________
I’d like to introduce our next guest, Dr. Valerie Wherley, who is the former Assistant Dean of Student Affairs at the William Beaumont School of Medicine and former Director of Pre-Health Advisement at Sacred Heart University. Dr. Wherley has over 20 years of experience working with successful pre-med, pre-health, and pre-masters students, helping them to create their most competitive applications. She brings that experience in guiding her clients at Accepted and in answering our question today.
The question for Dr. Wherley is: For any pre-health applicant, what is the benefit of revealing a hobby or two on your application? [7:11][Valerie Wherley] Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I love this question. I think there is great benefit in pre-health applicants revealing and sharing a hobby or two on their application. I will say that with a caveat. I do think when talking about a hobby, applicants should think about whether or not the hobby is meaningful. Can they reflect on what they have learned as a result of participating in this particular hobby in terms of skills acquired or things like interpersonal communication? Have they been participating in this hobby for a long-term period of time?
I think if they can think about those three aspects of the hobby, then it would qualify as being eligible for going on one of those pre-health applications. Hobbies are the portion of the application that reveals something very unique and interesting about an applicant. These pre-health applicants have done an incredible amount of work in terms of taking science classes, getting a competitive GPA, doing clinical work, and proving themselves in that domain. Hobbies are a way to reveal a specific component of themselves that is interesting and unique and maybe shows some diversity that could really click with a member of an admissions committee and really elevate that application into the next round.
One other thing is, hobbies also are that part that shows that applicants really understand the benefit of work-life balance. They not only devote time in the classroom into their clinical work, but also know how to unwind and unplug. When they get into graduate school, they are going to have to work very hard in class with didactic work and clinical work, but when they have time off, do they know how to give some time to themselves? Whether it’s dancing or singing or exercising, whatever it is, that’s really an important thing that admissions committees are looking for because it’s important for both mental health and wellness and even avoiding burnout.
I remember one of my earliest clients, this was well over 20 years ago, was a med medical school applicant. He was a butterfly collector and he listed it as one of his additional activities on the AMCAS application. He said every interviewer asked him about that hobby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NqhNUUZ5Z0____________________________________________
It’s my pleasure now to introduce Dr. Karin Ash. Dr. Ash has her Ph.D. in Educational Psychology and Organizational Behavior from Cornell University. She has been an Accepted admissions consultant since 2015 after serving as Head of Career Services for both Cornell University and the Cornell Johnson School of Business. She also has worked in the engineering program at Cornell University.
Here is the question for Dr. Ash: What is the most important part of the application for applicants in the STEM field? [11:10][Karin Ash] Well, first of all, just in case anyone isn’t familiar with STEM, it’s Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math.
This isn’t an uncommon question and my response would be that all parts of the application are important, but you can’t change your GPA. It’s a fact. You can take the GRE only so many times, and your score is a fact. If you’re applying to top schools, you’re competing against a lot of other people who also have good scores. Those are facts. Your resume is a list of facts. In your references, there’s some room for creative thought on the part of the writer, and it’s your job to provide the facts to him or her to make sure that they can write a very detailed letter that provides examples that show how your skills are the right skills for that grad program and you’ll be successful.
But the essay is where you have the most room for creativity and to present yourself to an admissions committee. Why did you major in what you did? Why did you choose the work that you did? Why did you focus on the particular research area? You have more control over your essay than any other part of your application. I wouldn’t say that the essay is the most important part, but it’s a critical component that you have the control to steer.
Your motivations are where you really want to start in your thought process. Identify your goals, and then work backwards. How does your story directly relate to those goals? The other thing you can do is reach out to current students or recent alumni and learn more about the program from their perspective. You can learn more than you can get from a website, and you might be able to incorporate some of what you learn into your essay. I just think there’s so much more room for you to maneuver in an essay than any other part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNdJ1nu0Bv4____________________________________________
I’d like to now welcome Kelly Wilson. Kelly has previously been a guest on Admissions Straight Talk, when she was the Executive Director for Master’s Admissions at Carnegie Mellon University, Tepper School of Business. Prior to that, she was Assistant Dean and Director of MBA Admissions at Georgetown McDonough, which I think is actually where I met you. She brings almost 25 years of admissions experience to us today.
The question for Kelly is: Admissions directors frequently say, “Be authentic, don’t write what you think we want to hear.” How can an applicant be authentic and put their best foot forward, especially when responding to goals questions, where the applicant is worried their goal is too distant from what they’ve done in the past. [15:10][Kelly Wilson] I think that’s a valid concern. From an applicant’s standpoint, there are times when I think the tendency is to think about what the admissions committee wants to hear. For me, that’s flawed thinking, but I understand why people think it. What I would like to encourage people to think through is, what are the goals you want based on where you are currently and what are the aspirations you have for your career? There might be a goal that is too much to accomplish in a short period of time of the MBA program. I think some thought and some conversations with a coach help this process greatly. Is the short-term goal really the short–term goal, or might that be an intermediate goal where you should think about an interim step to get you to that goal? That’s one way to think about it.
One thing that I caution people against is to think about stating goals that they think will sit well with the admissions committee. So for example, I had a conversation not too long ago with a candidate who was working in a tech startup space, and they were thinking about business school and said, “I think I should say that I’m interested in consulting since many more people go into consulting.” I said, “Okay, let’s talk about that a little bit” because I understand that for a lot of MBA programs, consulting is going to be one of the top sectors that students go into, but it’s not the only one. It’s better for the applicant to think about how they should connect the dots between what they’re doing and what they want to do, while conveying an openness to opportunities that might arise once they get to school. Nothing that a candidate writes in their essays is set in stone by the school. No one from the career office pulls that out and says, “But you said this.”
If schools aren’t going to hold you to your goals, why are they so interested in them? [18:44][Kelly Wilson] That’s a really good question. This was my philosophy the whole time as I was looking at applications. I wanted to see that somebody did the work to think through a plausible path of what makes sense and what they can accomplish at the school they’re applying to. I remember working in admissions and being at an event with prospective students and having a panel of alums. It would happen more often than not that the alumni would say, “Well, don’t tell admissions, but that’s not really what I wanted to do”, or “I didn’t know that that’s what I wanted to do.” Our expectation isn’t that you have to know. It’s that the plan you lay out makes sense.
Because if you lay out a sensible plan now, you can do it in the future if your interests change. [20:09]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSWNAbHfvPk____________________________________________
Our next guest is Natalie Grinblatt Epstein. Before joining Accepted way back in 2008, Natalie was Admissions Dean and Director for three top MBA programs. Her clients have been accepted to U.S. M7 MBA programs and admitted to elite programs around the world.
My question for Natalie is: What would you advise applicants to do if they were rejected from Round 1 applications and they’re debating about what they should do with Round 2 applications? [20:45][Natalie Grinblatt Epstein] That’s a great question because every year, I run into this situation, where maybe students went alone in Round 1 and didn’t use any kind of counseling or coaching and then they come to me and want to know what they should do.
The first thing that we’ll do is gather some data. We want to assess the application. What went well? What didn’t go well? What are some holes or things that you can improve between Round 1 and Round 2? Maybe it’s updating your resume. Maybe it’s being more clear about goals. Maybe it’s answering the prompt more clearly. Maybe it’s connecting with the school and showing that you share your values. There is the possibility that it might just be numbers, in which case, we might advise you to retake a test or to offer to take a class. That’s hard to do in a month but if you enroll in a class, you can discuss that with the admissions committee in an optional essay.
The second thing we do after the assessment and figuring out what we can do between now and January is try to figure out how to highlight the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses. That’s how we will approach the application. Of course, we want to cast the net a little bit more widely. Are there schools out there that would still allow this candidate to achieve their goals without there being another issue? If you’re only looking at rankings, you might not be finding the school that’s best suited for you. We’re going to cast the net a little bit more widely and discuss those schools. We’ll do the same sort of research that we would do with Round 1. We’d want that person to get in touch with people at the school, students, alumni, and staff. We’d want them to visit either virtually or in person so they get a sense of what the schools are like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ureYhVnKPYw____________________________________________
Our next guest is Vanessa Febo, who joined Accepted about a year ago. Vanessa has been teaching writing at UCLA for the last 10 years and has guided applicants to acceptance of top schools like Harvard, Stanford, UCLA, and USC, as well as to leading scholarships, including the Fulbright, Ford Foundation, Knight, Hennessy, Marshall, and Truman.
The question for Vanessa is: What is something that is often missing from the first draft of an applicant’s statement of purpose? [24:14][Vanessa Febo] Great question. Something that is often missing from the first draft of an applicant statement of purpose is the very basic, who, what, when, where, and why type of information. This is something that I see time and time again, working with clients. They spend a lot of time trying to articulate their deep reasons for wanting to join the program, which is absolutely necessary. They spend time talking about their research experiences, which is absolutely necessary. But in the process, they might forget to mention what school they went to or what their project was about?
I recently met with a client who was working on an engineering project and he didn’t state the problem they were trying to solve or even the purpose of doing this work. It’s kind of funny because in a lot of the first round edits, I’m asking questions like, “When was this?” or “ What company was this with?” It’s oftentimes not the deep, philosophical questions but more the timeline for your work.
Why are you going to put yourself through more schooling? Why do you want to be there? What do you plan to do while you’re there? One thing that I almost never see right off the bat on an application, on the statement of purpose is the purpose. What do you want to do with your degree when you are done? That is an obvious surprise too, how many times clients haven’t really thought about that.
I always talk about a statement of purpose being a very forward looking document while a personal statement is a little bit more backward looking. In a statement of purpose, you will talk about your past experiences, but they really want to know what you are going to do in the program and what are you going to do afterwards. It can actually be really difficult to figure out. Oftentimes, we know we want to do something, but we’re not exactly sure how to explain it. Or sometimes the reason might be that you like the location of the school, which is a legitimate reason, but it shouldn’t be your only reason.
So I guess the bottom line is don’t forget who, what, where, when, and of course, the why regarding your purpose.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sfezqf0t7Q____________________________________________
I’d like to welcome Alice Diamond to our episode today. Alice was the Associate Dean for Career and Community Service at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. She has 35 years of experience in career and admissions advising for undergraduate and graduate students. She joined Accepted in 2021.
Alice, the question for you is: How important are extracurricular activities in a graduate school application? [28:55][Alice Diamond] The answer is extracurricular activities can be really important, but it depends on a couple of things. The first is how much of a connection you can make between the activities that you have and the field that you want to enter. Did your activities actually have an impact on your decision to go into this career field? Let me give an example. You’re applying to grad school in clinical social work or marriage and family counseling, and you want to be a therapist. You were a Resident Assistant in your residence hall as an undergraduate. That experience can be extremely relevant if you think about the skills that you developed. You mediated conflicts between roommates, you created a living learning environment in your residence halls, I’m sure you had to develop crisis management skills, and you were a peer leader. If you can articulate those experiences and how they relate to the counseling field, it’ll be tremendously helpful.
Another example is you’re going to go into the healthcare professions, for example, occupational therapy or speech and language pathology. One of your experiences was volunteering over a period of time at a shelter for people in need. Whenever you’ve interacted with diverse populations, and especially those that are underserved, especially dealing with people who have been facing challenges like housing, finances, social and emotional challenges, it gives you the kind of experience that’s really relevant to working in a healthcare setting. It’s great to mention that in your application.
Often people are members of an athletic team and those experiences of being part of a team, collaborating together, and facing challenges are great talking points. Sometimes an athletic team member will have a direct experience like interacting with the team trainer that impacts their decision to go into a field like physical therapy. That’s really helpful to mention.
I’ll mention a couple caveats. One is that it’s depth, not breadth that matters with activities. A long list of things that you did one time, while they’re wonderful, are not going to have an impact on your application. It’s the ongoing activities where you really learned, contributed, changed. Most importantly, you can reflect on the experience because where extracurricular activities matter is when you learn and grow. It’s great that you worked at a soup kitchen, but more important is the reflection that you had about what you learned about hunger and homelessness from that experience. I encourage you to think about the activities that made a difference to you and describe them often. The grad school essays will be really helpful places to bring this in.
I also want to mention that, in higher education, we’re actually going from the word extracurricular to the word co-curricular because of the idea is that it’s really not “extra.” Let’s say you’re applying to grad school in political science and you had a leadership role in student government, that experience could be essential and also a really good complement to your academic experiences in the classroom. We use the word co-curricular now to give the sense of how important it is to your personal and professional development inside and outside of the classroom.
Excellent points all around. That’s a wonderful answer.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcKvXnWmBxA____________________________________________
Our next guest is Dr. Herman Gordon a.k.a. Flash who is the past Chair of Admissions at the University of Arizona College of Medicine. He has an A.B. degree from Harvard College and a Ph.D. from Caltech. Since 2014, he has helped Accepted’s clients gain acceptance to medical schools and Ph.D. programs in the sciences.
The question for you is: How can applicants avoid triggering negative stereotypes and implicit bias when applying? [33:27][Herman Gordon] Let me take a step back and talk a little bit about what happens in the committee room when the client’s application comes in. I’ve served on national grant review panels as well as on an admissions committee, and it’s similar dynamics in both. Everybody wants to find good people and develop them and help nurture them. There’s a real positive aspect to it, but there’s also the need to select in both grants and med school applications. The acceptance rate can be less than 10%. It’s pretty brutal.
There’s an aspect of admissions, which is weeding people out. In medical admissions, that gets weeded out at several steps. The first step is the invitation for an interview and then the next key step happens when the application goes forward to the whole committee and then gets reviewed there. In all those steps of the way, there’s the opportunity for bias and stereotypes, and I think an important concept as part of this is red flags. What tends to happen, at least at the end of the line, when it gets to the committee, is that if somebody doesn’t want the application to move forward, they can pick up a red flag and say, “We can’t accept it because of this,” and then the application is tubed. A serious red flag would be a couple of DUIs, but there are much more subtle ones.
Part of what I do with applicants is bring that perspective that anything that could be picked up as a red flag. I help notice those things and present or phrase them differently. The other aspect is that there are just certain biases that different people have. Not all reviewers have them but some definitely do. Twenty years ago, we talked about racial biases. Today, it’s much more subtle.
Let’s take engineering students as an example. I personally have loved teaching engineering students in med school. They have really good problem solving minds, and I think it’s something that should be mined for med school. But I have seen this both in working on committees, as well as working with applicants who have engineering backgrounds, that they just have a harder time with it. I think that’s because there’s this stereotype that engineers are nerds; they’re bad with people, and they’re not going to be good doctors. It’s just not true. You can think it, but it doesn’t mean that it’s true. It’s wrong to apply it to everybody and to rule people out for that kind of reason. Being aware of those kinds of biases is important so you can create an application that defends against those biases.
How would you advise an engineering client to fight the stereotype? [37:04][Herman Gordon] It’s very important that they present their people skills. Those could be on the job, in collaborations, in small groups, and hopefully, it’s in their community service efforts and in their clinical pre-medical training. They’ll want to demonstrate that they can work effectively with people and that it’s a driver for them. This will break the stereotype and allow the application to go through and be really processed on its merits instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDjhTXkDuYc____________________________________________
Our next guest is Esmeralda Cardenal, former Associate Director of Admissions at Yale School of Management, Director of MBA Admissions at MSU Broad and consultant at Cardiff Business School in the UK. Since 2014, Esmeralda has guided Accepted clients to acceptance in various graduate programs, including MBA, masters in finance, business analytics, data science, sustainability, and public policy.
Esmeralda, the question for you is: What are the most underrated parts of the applications by applicants? How should they be viewed and treated instead? [38:21][Esmeralda Cardenal] In my twenty years of working in admissions, I would say that the most underrated and perhaps forgotten part of the application is the application boxes or the short answer questions. These questions are not on the website but are on the portal once you go in and create your account. They’re usually the ones that people tend to forget and leave to the last minute.
What happens is that people usually spend a lot of time on their essays and resume which is wonderful. Then, at the 11th hour, when they’re submitting everything, they find out that there are all these required short answer questions with very tight character limits. The problem with this is twofold.
One is that usually at this time there is not much time left. They’re rushing something that should not be rushed. A lot of times, this is what the admissions committee sees first. You don’t want to rush anything, but especially these questions.
The other problem is a lot of these questions ask about elements of work experience or extracurricular leadership that many times have already been touched on in the essays. The problem arises when applicants begin repeating things they already said in the essays.
I tell all of my clients as soon as they know that they are interested in a school, to go in and create their account so they know exactly what that school asks. Get all those short answer questions and put them in a Google Doc and treat them as you would treat an essay. Answer them carefully and make sure that you are answering within the character limit.
These questions have a very tight and strict character limit. When they say about 300 characters, we’re not talking about 300 words. Once I had a client who thought they were writing 500 words. It was 500 characters, which is very different. That’s about 100 words. You want to make sure that you are writing concisely and to the point and answering all these questions.
Another thing to remember as you’re putting together your resume, you don’t need job duties and responsibilities and what you do on a day to day basis because that is going to be asked in those short answers. There is a lot more that you can say in the application just make sure you don’t rush it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0x0tbPLn0A____________________________________________
Our next guest is Jamie Wright, who has been on Admissions Straight Talk several times before. First, when she was Senior Recruitment and Admissions Manager at London Business School, Early Career Programs, and later after joining Accepted in 2017. Since then, she has helped clients gain acceptance to top programs in the United States and the EU, including London Business School, INSEAD, Oxford, Cambridge, Judge, Imperial, and others.
Here’s your question, Jamie: What’s the ideal candidate to business school? Can you give me a percentage chance that I can get in even if I don’t meet the ideal? [38:21][Jamie Wright] I think the quick and simple easy answer to both is, there’s not an ideal and no, I can’t give an exact number percentage of the chances of your application being successful.
In terms of the profile, I think that there still exists a rumor that in order to attend business school, you have to come from a certain background. I hear it all the time talking to clients. They say you need to have worked in finance or consulting. That’s not to say that they don’t add any value, but they’re not all of the profiles.
I don’t think that schools want a homogenous grouping of students, nor do I think that applicants want to be in a classroom filled with people who look and sound just like themselves and have the same background and experience. I know I don’t have to say it, but this range of experiences, be it academic or professional or extracurricular, results in a diversity of perspectives, discussions, and debate. It’s so interesting in the classroom.
That’s all to say that there might not be an exact profile that schools are looking for, but there are what I would consider common attributes. These are things like passion, leadership potential, commitment, and drive. There’s a lot of talk about EQ, IQ, and AQ skills. These are all the attributes that make not only successful students, but eventually, successful employees as well. I would say these are the more common qualities that schools are looking for, but there’s not a cookie cutter that applicants need to come from.
So if I was working on a not for profit, but I showed initiative, ingenuity, creativity, leadership, etc. I’d have a chance? [45:43][Jamie Wright] Absolutely. I think it’s interesting you say nonprofit. A lot of times that comes up as a non-traditional category. These students are making up a much bigger proportion of the classroom. Admissions committee members love to see an applicant coming from a different background. I used to love it when I would see people coming from different journeys because that’s what makes the classroom experience unique. I think most would agree that you learn as much from your peers as you do from faculty. Schools are very aware of that. They want to make sure that that peer-to-peer learning is happening and that you want to learn from these interesting people coming from different backgrounds.
And to answer the second question, what I would say is that, we can always give our recommendation as to whether we think a candidate stands a chance at a particular school. We can acknowledge they have a good profile or if there are some interesting things about their profile. But whether or not they’re admitted really depends on the whole application and not just what we see on that one page resume or CV. I don’t think that it’s possible to give that percentage without going deeper.
When I worked at London Business School and led the Early Careers admissions committee, I would reject candidates who looked good on paper, but I couldn’t understand their ambitions and couldn’t see any real motivation for their career or the program. We’d sometimes have to cut those people lose because the lack of interest and motivation at the application stage is usually a red flag and not a great indicator of what would happen once they came into the classroom. That’s all to say that the applicant’s journey and their story and their research and all of that does play a huge role in any decision. We need to be able to dig deeper into that before getting to any percentages and likelihood of being accepted.
I also say that at the end of the day, you’re going to be 100% in or 100% out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfkk8LmQ0v0____________________________________________
I’d like to welcome now Dr. Christie St- John. Dr. St- John joined Accepted a few years ago after a distinguished career in international, MBA, and graduate admissions at both Vanderbilt and Dartmouth Tuck. She also served on the board of directors of the MBA Career Services Council and the Consortium for Graduate Studies in Management. That was in addition to her duties at Vanderbilt and Dartmouth Tuck.
The question for you is: What’s the value of attending school admissions events, whether virtual or in person? [49:51][Christie St-John] I think this is critically important because a lot of times when I’m talking with clients and I’ll ask them, “Why do you want to go to the school?” They’ll answer, “It’s ranked high.” That’s all they know about it. They don’t know whether the companies they want to work for recruit at that school. They don’t know the personality of the school or what the students are like. It’s so easy now to go to virtual events. Now that COVID seems to be laying low for a while, in-person events and MBA fairs all over the US and the world are taking place again. That’s an important place to go and meet the people who are on the admissions staff of the school. They usually bring alums with them and sometimes even current students. You can get a lot of information that you’ll never find on the website from those people.
If you visit in person, you get to look at the building. Where are the faculty located? If you need to go to career services, is it in a totally different building or is it going to be convenient to get to? Where are the faculty located? Are they all over different buildings in the campus? Are they in the same building that most of your classes are in? These are things that you’ll never find out on the website because they don’t get publicized.
Another thing that’s really important is finding out what sort of activities you can do there. One of the best ways is to go in person, but I know that’s not feasible for some people, especially if you’re international. But you get to sit in on a class and see the dynamics in the classroom. To remedy that for people who can’t get there, a lot of schools do online classes that you can sit in on. I’ve done that myself because I just find it really interesting.
One thing that people don’t know is that, schools have very sophisticated technology today that actually records when you come to visit. Anytime you click on their website to go see something, they know it. If you have never even bothered to go to the website or even go to a basic webinar, they know that. At the end of the day, if applications are piling in and they’ve got to choose between you and someone else and you’re both saying, “I’m really excited about your school,” they aren’t going to believe you if you haven’t been to a single event.
You should reach out to students, alums, and your admissions point person. This is something that I know a lot of international students I’ve worked with are afraid to do because it’s not what they do in their country. But here, it is not only encouraged, it’s really expected of you.
Are there risks in messing up when you’re at these events? [54:04][Christie St-John] Yes. If you are unkind or rude to students or staff members, they’ll make a note of that. We had one of our receptionists report back to us. If you are very arrogant or standoffish, if you go to lunch with students and are disengaged, these things are noted. Schools don’t want to invite someone who isn’t open to learning who they are and finding out more about the school. If you don’t seem to be interested in the school and you’re sitting on your phone the whole time, they’ll notice. So mind your manners.
Overall, I think it’s really one of the things that is most misused or not used at all by people. When you’re talking to people during the interview and they say, “What do you like about our school?” and you answer, “You’re highly ranked, and I like the city of New York,” that’s not enough. It’s like going up to a young woman and asking her for a date because she’s beautiful.
It is like dating. Definitely an analogous situation there.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtiDHAJj3Q____________________________________________
Next I want to welcome Dr. Mary Mahoney, who, when she’s not helping Accepted clients get into medical school, healthcare-related programs, or English-related programs, is a tenured English professor and Director of Medical Humanities at Elmira College. She has advised applicants for over twenty years.
Here’s a question for you, Mary: How do I convey empathy effectively in a medical school personal statement, and later in interviews? [56:27][Mary Mahoney] So let’s tackle the writing first. When you’re writing the personal statement, in order to convey empathy, you probably want to tell a story that belongs to someone else. The story could be about a patient, it could be about an experience shadowing, it could be any kind of relevant experience that is associated with medicine. When telling the person’s story however, we want to make sure that we tell the story according to what it meant to them. We don’t want to compete with who gets to put meaning to this story. We want to demonstrate that we could actively listen well enough to understand the nuances of the experience for someone else. This demonstrates that you have the ability to pay attention, listen and glean what an experience means to someone else. Someone reading your essay is able to see that you have the ability to understand deeply the life that someone else is living.
But then you can add your perspective as well. As a medical professional, what could you possibly do to help them? Where do you see a problem that could possibly be rectified? Adding what this means or what could be done to help this person is not necessarily a bad way to conclude.
By listening and narrating someone else’s story, we actually grow in our ability to have compassion and recognize the significance of differences in the world. We have an obligation as someone in a leadership role to know how to intervene. That takes practice and it takes trial and error at times, but also the work of the team.
As far as relaying this in an interview, maybe it is a surprise, but the key message is that you listen and engage with someone. You engage in a conversation, which is an exchange between two people. You don’t override anyone speaking or interject, but acknowledge what someone is saying with responses like, “That was challenging.” Or you can share how you feel like, “Oh, that’s so sad.” Or you can show gratitude and say, “I appreciate that you shared that with me.” Or you show interest by asking, “And what happened after that?” Or you can show support and then that might sound like, “I’d like to help you out with that. What can I do to help with this?” Then you create this reciprocity in conversation that demonstrates that you’re really having a conversation, and this conversation means something.
That’s great advice, thank you so much again for joining me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4O27XKDAT0____________________________________________
I’d like to now welcome Michelle Stockman, professional journalist, former Columbia Business School admissions insider, and experienced MBA admissions consultant. She joined Accepted in 2007 so when I say she’s well experienced, I’m not kidding. It’s been fifteen years; is that hard to believe? [1:02:28]
[Michelle Stockman] It’s hard to believe. It’s gone by so fast. I have really enjoyed all the clients that I’ve gotten to know through the years, and it’s really been a fun journey both personally and for my clients.
Certainly one of the perks of this work is getting to know our clients and helping them.The question for you is: What aspect of the application usually requires the most work? [1:02:59][Michelle Stockman] Nearly everyone who comes to me as a client is an incredibly exceptional individual, otherwise they wouldn’t be thinking about doing an MBA. In terms of their transcripts, resumes, and job qualifications, everything is top notch. It’s up to refining a story. Where we spend a lot of time, is thinking through future goals. I think that a lot of applicants come and have a general idea of what they want to do. They know they want to do something different in terms of the future, whether they’ve gone as far as they can go in the position that they’re working in and the industry they’re working in, and they need that MBA to gain the skill set to move up within the company or the industry, or they want to switch industries.
These are all absolutely valid and good reasons to want to do an MBA, but if you come with just that and put that in your application, that is not specific enough, and that’s not really compelling because that is what everyone wants to do when it comes to deciding to pursue an MBA. What makes the difference is people who have really thought that through.
When you walk off the stage with your diploma in hand, what would be your dream job? Does that job exist? What can you find out about that job? Can you network around people who are working in those companies or who might know what is entailed? What skill sets are people in that job valued for? What do you have now that you can bring right away? What will you gain within the MBA program that will make you a strong candidate for that?
We have just been through some pretty intense worldwide events, in terms of the pandemic and energy crisis. You need to show you’re flexible. It’s good to have a couple of companies where you could see yourself working or a little hint of a plan B in case that first plan A doesn’t work for some reason. If you’re an international person, you can show that you want to work in North America or Europe if that’s your target, but you’re also willing to look somewhere else if that’s where the company needs you. That is one thing that we work on together first.
The long-term goal is also something that you need to put some thought into. It needs to be something that is inspiring and that answers a big question of life. How are you able to capture the attention of whoever’s reading your application with this big idea that you want to solve? That is something that’s going to make whoever’s reading your application sit up from wherever they are, look at their stack of applications that they might be ho-hum about, and read this one and say, “Yes, this is in the yes pile. I’m going to fight for this person because I like their idea. I think it’s exciting. I think I learned something new when I read their application because they gave me some context and some background that I didn’t know. I think they’ve got the skill set and the personality to be a leader in that aspect of the field or industry they’re in.”
When I work with applicants, I find we spend a lot of time talking about these things. I challenge them to really brainstorm and think it through because it’s hard. It hasn’t happened yet. It’s something that takes a little bit more thought and effort but when it’s done well, it can be really exciting to read. That is the goal.
That was a fantastic question and answer. I really want to thank you for joining me for number 500. [1:07:23][Michelle Stockman] Well, congratulations to you, Linda. It’s always a pleasure and you’re an incredible business woman and entrepreneur. Much respect.
Thank you so much.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMKZjHH1E6sAt this point, I want to thank all of the consultants who participated in this very special episode. I really appreciate your contributions, your time, your thoughts, and of course your expertise.
Listener, I want to thank you for joining me for our 500th episode. There would be no 500 if you and others had not listened for the last 499 episodes. Thank you for your support. I’m rather proud of this milestone, and I want to give credit where credit is due: It goes to the fantastic guests we’ve had for the last over 10 years and to listeners who’ve consistently listened week in and week out.
Related links:
- Fitting In and Standing out, a free guide
- How to Write a Goal Statement for Graduate School
- B-school Selectivity Index
- Med School Selectivity Index
- Accepted Resource Library
- Accepted’s Admissions Consulting Services
Related shows:
- How to Write a Great Statement of Purpose
- When Should I Plan to Apply to Grad School? NOW!!!
- Applying to U.S. Business Schools from Europe, Asia, the Middle East
- An Insider’s Look at MBA Admissions
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Find out the latest admissions news and what it all means [Show Summary]It was a very newsy November and in this episode, Linda Abraham is covering the most notable updates in the graduate admissions world: law school test waivers, top school withdrawals from US News rankings, accommodations for laid-off workers, and more!
In this bonus episode, Linda Abraham, Accepted founder and CEO, talks about the latest admissions news and what impact this can have on applicants [Show Notes]Thanks for joining me for this bonus episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Last month was indeed a very newsy November. It was full of admissions news and I just decided I’d be remiss if I didn’t touch on it for Admission Straight Talk listeners. Hence this bonus episode.
In the meantime, if you have any thoughts or feedback for me on this episode or any other episode, feel free to email me at ast@accepted.com.
American Bar Association Ceases Requiring Admissions Tests From Law Schools [0:55]All right, the first news item that I’d like to touch on is the American Bar Association. It looks like it will cease requiring that law schools require admissions tests which would mostly be the LSAT and the GRE. (A couple of schools accept the GMAT) And they’re going to do that as of 2025. If this change is finally approved, as is very likely, law schools can individually choose whether to require an admissions test or not.
Based on the experience of business schools that have gone with a lot of test optionality, most law schools will either require it of all incoming applicants, or they will require the test, but offer applicants the opportunity to apply for a waiver. Or they might say, “Those who meet certain requirements can automatically get a waiver.”
How will this apply to you? If you have good grades and tend not to test well, optionality is fantastic news for you, because you won’t have to take the test if you apply to schools where the test is optional after 2025. However, schools do want to know that you can do the work. If your academic record leaves something to be desired or doesn’t convey your abilities adequately, it would probably still be wise to prepare for and take the test so that it will better show your abilities.
It’s too early to tell, but in the business school realm, I think it’s true that a high test score can enhance somebody’s chances of getting a scholarship. As I indicated, it’s my gut feeling in the B-school world, and it may become true in the law school world as well.
If a scholarship is important to you, even if you have the grades, and particularly if you test well, it may make sense for you to take the test, even if it is optional. Whatever it is, just keep in mind that schools want to admit people they believe can thrive in their programs. Make sure that somehow, you’re providing them that confidence.
Top Schools Withdrawing From US News Rankings [3:08]Newsy November item number two is that top-15 law schools are withdrawing, with two exceptions, from the US News rankings. It all started when Yale and Harvard withdrew from the US News rankings on November 16th. They were followed by Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, Columbia, Penn, University of Michigan, Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown, UC Davis, and UC Irvine. Today I read about the University of Washington, and there may be more by the time we get this recording posted. The University of Chicago and Cornell Law announced that they currently intend to stay in the rankings.
For the schools that decided to withdraw, what’s their motivation? They say that the rankings simply don’t jive with their values. They’ve discouraged diversity and they’ve discouraged schools from accepting applicants who are more interested in public interest law which pays less than corporate law.
You might have noticed that it was mostly the top 15 or so schools that withdrew from the rankings. Top schools don’t need the publicity they get from the rankings as much as programs lower down the ranking food chain. Their reputation and their placement are well-established, so while their decisions are still affected by the rankings, they can afford to not have that influence on their decision-making. They want to be able to increase the diversity of their classes, both ethnic and socioeconomic, and they are concerned that the rankings are taking away from their success in that area.
US News says it will continue to rank law schools and might just use publicly available information as opposed to the ranking reports and the surveys. If it still continues to rank law schools and if applicants, parents, recruiters, and alumni, still value the rankings as highly as they have in the recent past, rankings could still influence law school decision-making, but probably to a lesser extent.
What are the implications of this mass withdrawal of elite law schools from the rankings? I think the advice in terms of school choice still holds. For other kinds of programs, I’m sure there are a lot of admission directors and MBA programs and medical schools that would love to see their schools withdraw from the rankings. It might happen but we’ll have to wait and see. I wouldn’t be surprised if other law schools withdraw, as I indicated, or if US News makes changes that will make the rankings more acceptable to law schools and perhaps try and move them back in.
But for you, my advice would be that you should be the one ranking law schools, not US News. In fact, in my opinion, the only one ranking law schools or any graduate program should be applicants, deciding where to apply and not based on someone else’s criteria, but on a thoughtful consideration of what’s important to you in a law school or graduate program. You’ll have to research it to determine which programs provide what you’re looking for. The data in the rankings may be part of your research, but not everything that will be important to you or should be important to you in law school is going to be captured in US News rankings data, or even data on the law school website, though you’re going to find a lot more there. I have long said that the rankings are misnamed. They are excellent stores of data and information, but they are not a universally valid ranking for everybody, and that’s why I say you should be the one ranking the law schools.
They’re also occasionally prone to fraud, because they’re not audited and there are a lot of benefits to being highly ranked. There’s a motivation to fudge, if you will, some of the numbers and get a higher ranking. That has happened occasionally in the past in different markets. I don’t think it’s a mass problem.
I think the biggest problem is that applicants, parents, recruiters, and alumni put too much weight on the ranking and don’t realize the rankings are storehouses of information. They can be part of your research and decision-making, but no applicant should decide based solely on rank. I’ve talked to too many applicants who say, “I want to go to a top X school,” and that’s whether it’s in law, business, med, or whatever. What’s top X for you?
When you decide where to apply, based on your goals, preferences, and qualifications and you have multiple acceptances, then take a look at the rankings. If there’s a significant difference in ranking, I would consider that as one of the factors in deciding where to attend. But for minuscule differences in rankings, I really wouldn’t and I wouldn’t recommend that you do either.
My concern with the law school withdrawal from the rankings is that law schools may become a little bit less forthcoming with information that applicants should have, like LSAT, GPA ranges, perhaps salary data, bar passage rates, and those kinds of things. I’m hoping it won’t happen, but that is a little bit of a concern that I have. I hope it won’t lead to less transparency. I do hope it will lead to less emphasis on the actual rankings numbers as in the past.
Business Schools Offer Accommodations for Laid-Off Workers [8:39]The third item in Newsy November was accommodations for laid-off workers in applying to business school. This started with Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management on November 14th. Some MBA programs since then, in addition to Kellogg, have offered a helping hand. They’re really reaching out to recently laid-off workers and encouraging them to apply this cycle for their MBA. I think this started with Kellogg and specifically with tech workers because these employees at elite tech companies are usually very good applicants and MBA students.
The accommodations vary from school to school, and eligibility for the accommodations also varies from school to school. They can include separate deadlines for recently laid-off workers such as at MIT Sloan and Berkeley Haas. It could be a test waiver offered by Kellogg, Cornell Johnson, NYU Koo Tech MBA, or Berkeley Haas. It could be application fee waivers such as at Indiana Kelly, UCLA Anderson, or Georgia Tech. Or it could be a later deadline for tests and recommendations which is what UCLA Anderson is offering laid-off workers. Here’s a link to a summary of B-schools with accommodations for laid-off workers. But for full details of these accommodations, check our summary and then check the school’s websites for all the details because there are nuances and you should understand them directly from the schools.
Also, assume that more schools are going to join this parade. I think in general, these accommodations are genuinely trying to help people who just recently lost a job, but I also think they reflect the fact that application volume is down. I think they also mean that schools are going to use the waitlist more.
They’re going to compete more with each other for students that they really want. That competition is going to take place via scholarships and grants, and they’re going to probably accept more Round 3 applicants or perhaps even, and this is truly speculative, extend final deadlines or add a round or two, if application volume is really, really down.
What triggered all of these accommodations? I think the big trigger was the increase in layoffs, specifically in the tech field and among white-collar workers. According to True Up Tech, over 210,000 workers in tech have lost their jobs in 2022. Obviously, there have been some layoffs in other industries too, although the overall job market is still really strong, as I’m sure you all know.
Considerations for Applying to MBA Programs During a Recession [11:17]As I discussed way back in June during my previous bonus episode, right before a recession is a good time to apply to graduate schools and business schools in particular. Application volume goes up during a recession when layoffs increase, which means there is more competition among applicants for spots, as opposed to among schools for applicants. During an economic expansion when unemployment is low and opportunities abound, young professionals question the value of a full-time, two-year MBA. However, if you earn your MBA during a recession, you gain shelter from the economic storm in business school and improve your skills and marketability. Plus, if the recession isn’t too long, you can graduate into an expanding economy.
However, applying during a recession means that you apply when everyone else is also seeking shelter from the economic storm. This is what I touched on in the last bonus episode. The last application cycle saw a decline in applications. We had an expanding economy, a really strong job market, and another decline was anticipated this year. My take is that it’s happening, and MBA programs are really motivated to actively recruit recently laid-off workers, partially because application volume is still low.
If unemployment increases, application volume is also likely to increase because young professionals tend to seek graduate education more when there are fewer opportunities for advancement, as there typically are in a recession. What are the implications for you as an applicant? Well, I checked briefly with accepted staff, which includes former admissions committee members and directors from Carnegie Mellon, Tepper School, Cornell Johnson, Michigan Roth, Dartmouth Tuck, Vanderbilt Owen, and Yale School of Management, and all agreed that if application volume remains low or simply declines from last year, schools will be forced to use the waitlist more and also accept more applicants during round three, even if they aren’t getting the PR for these accommodations. They also felt that while the accommodations are a genuine help to applicants, there’s tremendous PR value in these schools’ moves.
In other words, even if schools don’t actually announce accommodations, reality may force them to accept more Round 3 applicants, use a waitlist more, and be more generous with financial aid. If you’re ready to apply, do take advantage of these accommodations and apply during Round 2. And if you only become ready for Round 3, this may be a year when Round 3 is going to be more widely used than in previous years.
Now, this is all good news. Waiving tests or application fees or giving applicants more time, is just helpful to you. My reading of the tea leaves implies that schools are experiencing a drop in applications, particularly business schools, though I believe it’s true of law schools and other graduate programs also. As a result, they’re taking more initiative to recruit applicants for Round 2 in the case of business schools. It also implies to me that even schools that are not announcing accommodations will probably use a waitlist more and also accept more applicants than usual Round 3.
And the final implication is that it’s a little easier to get accepted this cycle than in some other years and schools may be competing for admitted applicants by being a little bit more generous with scholarships than they otherwise would be.
Yes, November was newsy. No question about it. And most of the news was positive for applicants.
Law school applicants, we’re here for you. If you want an experienced admissions eye to review your personal statement and addenda, go to accepted.com/law/services and explore how we can help you.
MBA applicants, take advantage of the apparent drop in MBA applications to apply when you can get into the programs that you may not be able to get into if application volume increases. Again, we are here to help. Go to accepted.com/mba/services and check out our flexible options.
Related links:
- MBA Programs Seek Recently Laid Off Tech Workers
- U.S. News & World Report Sees High Drop Out Rate Among Elite Law Schools
- ABA Drops LSAT Requirement Beginning in 2025
- Accepted’s Admissions Consulting Services
Related shows:
- When Should I Plan to Apply to Grad School? NOW!!!
- How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA
- How to Get Into Georgetown Law
- Active Learn and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine
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Discover the differences between and how to get accepted to common healthcare admissions tracks [Show Summary]Accepted consultant Dr. Valerie Wherley has an impressive and extensive background in pre-health, having advised thousands of students to acceptance at their dream schools and programs. In this highly informative podcast interview, she distinguishes the differences between common healthcare admissions tracks and shares how to craft a compelling application for each one.
Interview with Dr. Valerie Wherley, Accepted admissions consultant and former post-bac program director & pre-health advisor [Show Notes]Welcome to the 499th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. We have lots of resources, articles, guides, and podcast episodes that can help you get accepted to the graduate healthcare programs of your choice. Go to accepted.com/healthcare to explore the library of free resources there.
Today is all about healthcare, and our guest is Dr. Valerie Wherley, an Accepted consultant. Dr. Wherley earned her BS and MS at the University of Maine in Kinesiology and her Ph.D. in Higher Education/Higher Education Administration from the University of Connecticut. Over the last 20 years, she has served as the Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, Director of the Pre-Health Post-bac Certification program at Sacred Heart University, and the Director of Pre-health Advisement Sacred Heart University.
In those roles, and before joining Accepted earlier this year, she advised thousands of students in the following pre-health tracks: pre-med, pre-PA, pre-vet, pre-dental, pre-pharmacy, pre-PT, pre-OT, pre-accelerated nursing, and pre-optometry as well as applicants to master’s programs in Exercise Science, Biomedical Sciences, Occupational Therapy, Speech-Language Pathology, Athletic Training, Public Health, and Applied Nutrition.
Let’s tap into that amazingly broad and notable experience.
What should all applicants in healthcare fields have if they want to apply successfully? What are the common requirements? [2:27]Great question. As you said, I have worked with a variety of pre-health fields during the time I worked at Sacred Heart and at the Beaumont School of Medicine. The commonality that students need to have in their academics is a demonstration of mastery of those prerequisite courses. They need a very strong academic transcript and whatever those prerequisite courses are for their intended path. Typically, that’s the sciences. A lot of those pre-health tracks have common courses such as biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and anatomy, with some nuances depending on the track. There’s just no way around saying you have to demonstrate competency and mastery of those foundational concepts on your academic transcript. You have to be strong there.
From an experience perspective, my suggestion is to demonstrate that you have exposure to your intended career path. Exposure comes from observing, shadowing, and interviewing the people who are doing the work you want to be doing in the future. It’s not enough if you have a family member who has said to you, “You’ll make a great dentist one day,” that’s lovely. However, you have to have been in the trenches seeing the work and still know that it is your calling. You can demonstrate that in your personal statement and in your interview when you are applying to graduate school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTzQJw5PqcIs shadowing enough? [4:31]Shadowing is the first place to start. When I worked with undergraduate students, I always said shadowing is step one to really see if this is the place where you want to be. Shadowing is a great place to understand what you do and what you don’t like. I would have pre-PT students, for example, who would shadow a physical therapist for a few weeks and walk away from that experience and say, “That’s absolutely what I could see myself doing,” or just as importantly, “I cannot see myself doing that. It’s not the scope of practice that I thought it was.” That’s the importance of shadowing.
Then we move into more in-depth experiences such as a semester-long internship or externship or some of those paid clinical experiences that are critically important to particular pre-health paths. It might not be direct patient care, but it still qualifies as healthcare experience.
What should DO applicants do differently or have that isn’t necessary for MD applicants? [6:05]MD and DO applicants should prepare somewhat similarly in terms of academics and core experiential things such as clinical experiences, but DO applicants need to understand some of the basic principles of practicing in a DO way and what the DO education offers.
The DO education usually offers about 200 hours of this piece called osteopathic manipulative treatment, which is not offered in a traditional MD curriculum. In a DO interview, applicants may be asked the question, “Do you know what this is? Are you prepared for this piece of your education? What does this mean to you? Are you prepared to put this into practice in your DO career?” DO applicants certainly want to be aware of what that piece of their curriculum looks like.
Also, they should know what the DO philosophy is. The DO practicing philosophy takes into account a holistic view of the human and patient and also really talks to patient care with a prevention point of view that MDs may or may not encompass.
The other thing that seems to be a critical component is having a letter of recommendation from a DO as part of your overall application package. You’re going to secure one of those letters if you’ve done some shadowing, had an internship, or if you have a long-term working relationship with a DO who can write you a really strong letter of support.
Physician assistant programs are becoming increasingly competitive. What are those programs looking for that’s different from MD and DO programs? [8:03]A physician assistant usually has some nuances in terms of their prerequisites that are different. My pre-PA students are usually always required to take A&P I and II. More PA schools are requiring students to take medical terminology. There are some nuances in those prerequisites. PA schools are expecting students to walk in the door with some acquired clinical skills, and that is because the PA curriculum is short. Once PA students start school it is very fast-paced. The learning environment moves quickly and they’re in those clinical settings fast.
PA students are expected to come in the door with some foundational clinical skills. Those are required by what’s considered direct patient contact hours. To be a competitive candidate, most PA schools are requiring documented direct patient contact hours. The requirement will vary by school, some require 250 and some require 2,000. You’re going to be a competitive applicant if you have documented direct patient contact hours and you will acquire those by having some kind of license or certification, such as an EMT, an MA, or a CNA. That takes time. It’s a real exercise in time management and organization to balance school and getting these patient contact hours done.
Do you think a gap year might be advisable for many PA applicants? [9:47]A lot of the applicants that I worked with at my university did take a gap year in order to finish and acquire enough of those patient contact hours in order to be competitive. I think a critical mistake is applying to PA school before a student is ready or when they’re just meeting those minimum required hours that are posted on a school’s website. My recommendation is always to look at that minimum number of required hours and try to double it. That’s the point when you are really getting into the competitive area.
What’s different about how dental applicants should prepare in comparison to MD or PA applicants? [10:33]Dental school applicants will take their admission exam known as the DAT, which is different than the MCAT and the GRE.
I should have mentioned that for PA students, they’re developing a new standardized test out there called the PA-CAT which is coming down the pike now. There are 11 schools out there requiring the PA-CAT. There are other schools out there that are calling it optional. I think we are going to see more and more schools adopting the PA-CAT in the future.
My pre-dental students are preparing for the DAT exam that can be taken at the end of their junior year after most of the prerequisites are done, particularly organic chemistry. Dental experience is of utmost importance. You’ll want to have some experience working as a dental tech and certainly in a dental office where you’re shadowing a dentist. Dental specialties are really good experiences as well like shadowing an orthodontist or somebody who works with an older population doing denture work.
Another suggestion is to join a pre-dental club on campus. If you are a traditional undergraduate student, it would offer you some volunteer experiences in the community like teaching an elementary school about oral hygiene and how to floss and brush. That looks wonderful on an application.
What’s really critically important to my pre-dental students is this thing known as manual dexterity. When you think about being a dentist and working in patients’ mouths, that’s a very tiny space, and you have to be able to demonstrate that in some fashion, you have worked on your manual dexterity skills prior to going to dental school. Students get really creative when they demonstrate this. They talk about their ability to knit or crochet or do woodworking or paint or draw or play a musical instrument. Anything like that speaking to your manual dexterity skills looks great on your application.
How should physical therapy applicants prepare? [13:02]To be a competitive physical therapy candidate, you need to show observation and shadowing in a variety of physical therapy clinics and outpatient and inpatient settings and have your hours documented. Most physical therapy schools have some type of log to submit at the time of application where your hours will be verified by your supervising physical therapist. Whether you have shadowed or observed for five hours or 100 hours, you will have a physical therapist who will vouch for you not only by signing that log but hopefully by also submitting a letter of recommendation. It really is about observing physical therapists who have a wide scope of practice in a variety of disciplines like a pediatric physical therapist, a geriatric physical therapist, and a physical therapist who works with traumatic brain injuries. The more the better. When you go in for those interviews, you can speak to the variety of PT practice that is out there beyond what we typically think of as just sport-related PT.
How does an application to veterinarian school differ from the other applications? [14:55]My pre-vet students hold a special place in my heart because my dad is a large animal veterinarian. He graduated from Cornell University and has been practicing for as long as I can remember.
In order to be a competitive veterinary medicine student or applicant, it is about having strong prerequisites. More and more vet schools are shying away from requiring the GRE. For students out there who say, “I am not a good standardized test taker,” that is good news for them.
Demonstration of a variety of shadowing and clinical experiences is of utmost importance. When I talk to my pre-vet students, I talk about getting exposure in four different categories of animal experience: small animal, large animal, aquatic animal, and exotic animal. If you can demonstrate that you have had experience and exposure in those four domains, that will show a holistic portfolio on your application. It is hard to do, especially depending on where you live regionally. If you do not live near a zoo or an aquarium, it can be really challenging. If you’re a traditional undergraduate student, connecting with a faculty member who could connect you maybe with an internship that maybe would require some summer travel would be of utmost importance.
If it’s absolutely impossible for you to get experience in one of those four categories, then my second tier is that school choice becomes critically important. When you’re applying to vet school, match the experience on your resume with what those vet schools have to offer in terms of what their specialty areas are. What do their faculty specialize in? What are their clinical experiences? That school choice should really match. There are schools out there that have great exotic animal programs. If you have a lot of exotic animal experience, that should be a really good match. You can talk about that in your personal statement. If you have no exotic animal experience, that school might not be the best choice or fit for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrjqoJHIXBUWhat recommendations do you have for applicants interested in a Master’s of Public Health? [18:32]I’m finding a lot of students are interested in a Master’s of Public Health for a variety of reasons. I think being interested in the general population or public policy or simply what’s going on in our communities is sparking an interest in this particular program. It’s also a really interesting choice for students during a gap year. I’m finding some pre-med students or some pre-PA students acquiring an MPH during their gap year, not only for their own personal interest but also to become more competitive applicants.
However you’re doing this, or whatever your motivation, to become a competitive applicant, there are two avenues you should really think about. First of all, most MPH programs out there are going to ask you to write a statement of purpose. What is your driving motivation to get this Master’s of Public Health? A statement of purpose should really tell an admissions committee why they should give you a seat in the program. It should be really well-written.
The second piece is thinking about what concentration or track you might be interested in within the MPH program. Public health is so big and there are so many opportunities. If you look at a particular public health program, they will typically offer between five to eight concentration areas, which is where you hang your hat. Some examples of those might be a focus on health promotion, environmental health, occupational health and wellness, epidemiology, biostatistics or public policy, just to name a few. So really research an area or a track that you think could meet your career objective or goal so that you could write about it and say to an admissions committee, “I’m really interested in public policy and here is why.” Those two writing pieces will help make your application rise to the top.
Who should do a formal post-bac program and who can do an informal one? [22:19]I had the pleasure of being the Director of the Pre-Health Postbac Certificate Program at Sacred Heart University and worked with some wonderful students through that program, not the least of which were military veterans coming back and going back to school. They were a wonderful group of post-bac students. In my post-bac program, I had two general categories of students: students that I would call career changers and students I would call academic enhancers.
Students who are career changers coming to a post-bac program are students who did not study anything scientifically related as an undergrad and have decided to completely change their career for one reason or another. Maybe they feel a calling to medicine and now need to get all of their prerequisites done in order to move on to the next phase of their new career. These students need to do a complete and formal post-bac program, from biology to organic chemistry and beyond. My program was two years long, and students also acquired clinical experiences and research experiences along the way. At the end of our post-bac program, they would get a certificate of completion and a fully vetted academic transcript, which looks really nice on a graduate school application.
Students who are academic enhancers may have completed a science-related undergraduate program but did not perform to the best of their ability the first time around and need to come into a post-bac program to take a second crack at some of these courses. Now, students could take a few courses if they just needed to retake a few specific ones. Or they can redo the entire complement of classes which shows programs, “I’m a new student now with these new skills. Watch me now.”
How can applicants in healthcare programs differentiate themselves in an authentic way? [25:31]Great question. I’ve thought of a few ways that students can differentiate themselves to ensure that they are not looking like everybody else.
My first answer is to show longitudinal commitment. If you are an applicant who is doing community service for a day and doing research for a week and doing a leadership role for a month, doing a lot of very short-term items will look like you are checking a box. The students who have longitudinal commitment really stand out. You get to choose what and where that looks like. It could be to your church or your synagogue or volunteer experience at a soup kitchen. Notice I’m not mentioning clinical work here, I’m talking about longitudinal commitment. It can be Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, but it has to be long-term. That really differentiates you as an applicant because it shows commitment, resolve, and resilience. It shows all of these really wonderful qualities about who you are.
The second thing is a diversity of interests. Applicants to any of these pre-health programs will have to take science classes. On some level, you must be interested in science, patient care, and helping people. That’s pretty common. A diversity of interest is really wonderful to read about from an admissions committee perspective. If you play the trumpet, surf, knit, write poetry, or anything else, that’s very wonderful to read about because that shows that you have interests outside of patient care and you have the ability to have a work-life balance. It shows you can potentially talk to patients about something else besides their ailments and that you can connect with patients in the future on a real human level. Showing your diversity of interests is another way to stand out.
And the third thing I would say is leadership. In whatever way you can manifest leadership, talk about how it has changed you and what skills you have cultivated as a result of that leadership. Don’t just tell it like a resume item. Really show it and talk about it.
What are some common mistakes that applicants make that you’ve seen over the years? [29:10]I caution applicants against predetermining their specialty at the time of application. I think it’s okay for students to talk about what they may be interested in. If you are an applicant who has shadowed a lot of surgeries and you think you might want to go into a surgical specialty, that is okay. But I do not think an application should be so forward-facing as to be predetermined and locked into a specialty area. When I was working at the medical school, I certainly saw students’ thoughts on specialty areas change from the beginning of year three, which is the start of clinical rotations, to the end of year three, which is the end of clinical rotations because a light bulb moment happened and a student went from surgery to OB/GYN and then declared OB/GYN at the end of year three.
More importantly, admissions committees, regardless of your pre-health track, want to know that if you are getting a seat in their program, you are coming in with an open mind. When you go into clinical rotations, whether it’s inpatient or outpatient or psych or dermatology, you’ll be there with an open mind and open heart and willing to listen and hear and absorb every single piece of information. It shows that you’re not so closed off, that you are only concerned about one specialty area because you’re locked in.
Another common mistake is applying before somebody is truly their most competitive self. That’s the kindest way to say it. Don’t apply before you’re really ready academically, from a clinical perspective, with the strongest letters of recommendation, and with the strongest test scores. I know applicants are eager to get into the application cycle. That’s a very exciting time in your academic career but you also want to put together your most competitive application. If it means waiting a year, that is in everybody’s best interest.
The third thing I would say is applicants not being selective, discerning, or data-driven about school choice and school fit. I do think that time and thoughtful intention about where you are applying, why you are applying, doing some research on the mission statement of a school, the faculty that are at that school, and what that school stands for is a really important process. How does the school fit with you as an applicant, your background, what you’ve done, and what you hope to do in the future? I think that really matters. Some applicants will cast a very wide net and just sort of think, “I’ll go wherever somebody gets me a seat.” You really want to be happy at the school where you are and fit with a peer group and a community where you can do some really good in-depth learning. I think school choice and school fit are a big part of this puzzle.
What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [33:24]I think my final point is about mock interviews. In my opinion, mock interviews are so important.
Once you get your application in, and you’re in that application cycle, and you get the wonderful news that you have been invited for an interview, you should practice, practice, practice. A mock interview with a consultant, somebody who’s been doing this work for a while, is such a good use of time to prepare yourself in the most professional way.
It’s helpful not only to see how are you appearing on camera but to practice the different types of interview formats and types of questions that you could be asked, from general questions to pre-health specific questions to the more difficult questions like situational judgment questions to ethics-based questions. Those are really tough. Getting this practice also makes sure that you are phrasing your answers in the most professional way. I can’t recommend mock interviews highly enough.
Related links:
- Healthcare Admissions 101
- Dr. Valerie Wherley Bio
- Contact Dr Valerie Wherley for help with your application
- 10 Tips for Acceptance to a Physician Assistant (PA) Program
- Med School Mock Interviews
- Other Healthcare Mock interviews
- Accepted’s Med School Admissions Consulting Services
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- How To Get Into Dental School
- How To Get Accepted To the University of Iowa’s PA Program
- Temple University’s Postbac Programs: A Plethora of Possibilities
- All About Duke’s Top-Ranked PA Program
- An Inside Look at USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry
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Discover all you need to know about MIT Sloan's MBA program [Show Summary]
MIT Sloan is one of the magic M7 MBA programs, and its Assistant Dean, Dawna Levenson, shares everything applicants aiming for acceptance should know.
Interview with Dawna Levenson, Assistant Dean at MIT Sloan School of Management [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 498th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted's MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but also tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk, Dawna Levenson, Assistant Dean at MIT Sloan School of Management. Dawna earned her bachelor's and master's in Management Science at MIT Sloan, became a partner at Accenture, and then returned to MIT Sloan in 2007 as Associate Director of Academic Programs. She moved into Admissions in 2012 and became Director of Admissions in 2013 and Assistant Dean in 2018.
Can you give us an overview of the MIT Sloan Full-Time MBA program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it? [2:07]
Absolutely. I think I would begin with class size. Our two-year MBA has a class size of roughly 410. You may have some friends who just graduated in the past year or so, and their class size was slightly bigger. That’s a result of the pandemic when there was a fair amount of uncertainty, and we actually grew the class size in 2020. However, it was never intended for that to be permanent, and so we have slowly worked our way back down. Fundamentally, the class that just matriculated, and moving forward, will be approximately 410.
We have a one-semester core and then three semesters to really shape the curriculum as you see fit based on your interests. As much as you as a student have flexibility in terms of your classes and shaping that, our faculty have a lot of flexibility, too, in terms of how they teach. Your classes will be a combination of traditional lectures and problem sets, as well as a lot of project-based classes.
We have a subset of these project-based classes that are called our Action Learning labs, where you are either on a particular subject matter or focused on a certain geography and working as part of a team to solve a real problem for a real company and make recommendations to them at the end of the project.
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Are you seeing any trends in terms of hiring? Where do MIT Sloan MBA grads get jobs? [3:42]
We just recently published our 2022-2023 employment report, so these numbers are right off of that. For students who graduated in 2022 seeking employment, 31.2% of them went into consulting, 22.6% went into finance, and 22.6% went into technology. An additional 6.8% went into pharma, healthcare, and biotech. It’s a good spread.
What's a little misleading is some may have gone into consulting, but they’re focused on the tech industry. So, keep that in mind.
Can you explain the optional core electives? [5:02]
Our two-year MBA students spend their first semester taking core classes. You’re actually part of a cohort of somewhere between 65 and 70 students who you're taking all of your classes with. You're also assigned to be part of a core team of six or seven people where you're actually doing all of your work together. In addition to your core set of classes, you also have the option to take one additional elective. You can choose from marketing, finance, strategy, or operations for that additional elective.
What are the core requirements? [5:48]
They include microeconomics, DMD, which is data models and decisions, accounting, and communications.
What are the tracks and certificates that MIT Sloan offers?
Welcome to the 497th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me.
It’s Thanksgiving week! I want to take this opportunity to thank you again for joining me. Because of the holiday I decided to air one of the most popular shows of 2022: An Interview With the Temple Katz School of Medicine Admissions Dean
I chose this interview with Dr. Jacob Ufberg not only because of its popularity, but because Dean Ufberg gave wonderful insight into Temple Katz’ medical school, its integrated approach to teaching medicine and its tight ties to the community that it serves. If you haven’t tuned in for this interview, please do so. And if you listened already, it might be worth a second listen.Also a quick announcement. If you have parents who are curious about the medical school application process or maybe a little anxious about it. Tell them about the Parents of Preprofessional Applicant Facebook group. They can join at https://www.facebook.com/groups/preprofessionalparents/.
If you like this episode and want to test out whether you are competitive at your target medical schools, take the free Medical School Admissions Quiz at accepted.com/medquiz. It’s a brief assessment that will give you valuable information into your competitiveness as well as suggestions for improving your qualifications and competitiveness. Take it today at accepted.com/medquiz.
Thanks as always for listening to Admissions Straight Talk.
Wishing you a wonderful Thanksgiving! I’ll talk to you again next week! In the meantime, here is An Interview with the Temple Katz School of Medicine Admissions Dean.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related links:
Temple University – Lewis Katz School of MedicineMed School Essentials Video CourseTemple Katz Secondary Essay TipsAccepted’s Medical School Admissions Consulting
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NYMC: How to Get InDeep Dive into Penn Perelman School of Medicine: An Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean for AdmissionsTulane School of Medicine: How to Get InAll You Want to Know About Georgetown Medical School’s AdmissionsTemple University’s Postbac Programs: A Plethora of Possibilities4 Steps for Showing Fit in Your Application
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Discover all you need to know about UNC Kenan-Flagler's MBA program [Show Summary]
UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School is a leading MBA program located in North Carolina, an emerging business hotspot. Danielle Richie, UNC’s MBA Admissions Director, describes the qualities that make up the dynamic student body and shares her tips on how to get in.
Interview with Danielle Richie, Dir. of Full-Time MBA Admissions and Student Recruitment at UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 496th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we get to our wonderful guest, you're invited to take the free six-question quiz at accepted.com/mapmba to see how prepared you are to actually apply. You'll also gain access to relevant other resources, both free and paid, that can help you develop an application strategy for acceptance.
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk Danielle Richie, Director of Full-Time MBA Admissions and Student Recruitment at UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School. Danielle earned her Bachelor's in Public Relations at Oswego and her Master's in Communications at Syracuse University. She has worked in higher ed admissions and administration at Utica College, Syracuse University, Bentley University, and of course, UNC Kenan-Flagler, where she moved to in 2018 as Senior Associate Director for MBA Admissions and Recruiting. In November 2021, almost exactly a year ago, she became Director of Full-Time MBA Admissions and Recruiting.
Can you give an overview of UNC Kenan-Flagler's full-time MBA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:27]
UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School is located in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. We are a two-year MBA program at 62 credits. There are 15 core classes where candidates get the breadth of business. We have 12 concentrations that students can select from to gain more in-depth knowledge. These vary from business analytics to consulting, marketing, healthcare, real estate, and so on and so forth. You really get to create your own journey, if you will, with an MBA from Kenan-Flagler. We are STEM-designated, and it does not matter which concentration you pursue. You actually don't even have to, and about 20% of our students will just do a general MBA and they'll pick and choose from over 125 different electives to make up their program. We do require an internship between year one and year two. A lot of our students will do a "traditional internship" where they will apply and go on to work six to eight weeks in the summer with a company.
What's new at Kenan-Flagler? [3:41]
There are a lot of exciting things going on at Kenan-Flagler. We had our groundbreaking ceremony in September for a new building that will open up in 2024. We're very excited about that. We're not looking to expand the MBA program, but the building that we're in currently was opened in 1997. We do want to grow our undergrad business program by doubling it, so we are building that facility. Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan Chase came and was one of our guest speakers.
We also just launched our Charlotte MBA Executive Program, located in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's about two hours from Chapel Hill and is an executive format that working professionals can use to earn their MBA. That’s in-person and is targeted to applicants from North Carolina as well as South Carolina because Charlotte is close to the South Carolina border. As Charlotte continues to grow, especially in the financial space, we saw that it was a great opportunity to offer the Charlotte MBA, as well as some executive development opportunities off campus.
Can you highlight the modular system? [5:31]
We call them mods and prospective students always ask, "What's a mod?" A mod is essentially seven to eight weeks of classes that you take. You're in Mod 1 when you start class. By October break, you'll be taking your final exams,
Find out how you can benefit from Stride Funding [Show Summary]
Tess Michaels shares what’s new at Stride Financing, the innovative educational financing company she founded, and reflects on the impact that her Harvard Business School MBA has had on her impressive success today.
Interview with Tess Michaels, Founder and CEO of Stride Funding [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 495th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. I don't usually plug Accepted services on this podcast, but Accepted is having a fantastic special, the last one of 2022, and I would be remiss if I didn't share this news with Admissions Straight Talk's listeners. You can save up to $1,000 on Accepted services between now and November 14th. You premeds looking to next year, now is your opportunity to lock in a package at this very special rate AND start your application early. For those of you with December and January deadlines interested in a few hours of invaluable editing and advising, you too can save. Go to accepted.com, choose the type of service that's best for you, and use coupon code SAVENOW. This special ends November 14th.
I'd like to welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk Tess Michaels, Founder and CEO of Stride Funding. Tess graduated from Penn with a Bachelor's in Applied Science and another Bachelor's from the Wharton School in Global Impact Investing and Operations Management. While at Penn, she founded SOCEANA, a platform to democratize giving and promote corporate volunteerism, which was acquired in 2018. After graduating and being accepted to Harvard's 2+2 program, she worked at Goldman Sachs as an analyst for two years, and then at Vista Equity Partners as a private equity associate. As soon as she arrived at Harvard Business School, she founded Stride Funding, which we're going to learn a lot more about in today’s show.
Can you give us an overview of Stride Funding's approach to student financing and how it differs from traditional student loans? [2:20]
Absolutely. As you mentioned, I was actually inspired by my own experience as a student when founding Stride. I was part of the 2+2 program at Harvard. I knew I was going to pursue my MBA, and candidly went through the back and forth of the question, “Is it worth it to go back to school?” That sticker price is just so hefty, and I realized a lot of my peers were in the same boat. I was even asking everyone, "If you could solve one thing, what would it be?" and everyone kept saying, "I want to go back to school, but the costs are prohibitive and I have no guarantee around the outcomes."
I became really fascinated with two concepts. One, how do we actually structure products to align incentives and naturally tie into the outcomes that students receive?
And secondly, how do we increase access? I found it so backward that despite going to a great school and great program, almost every lender asks for students to have co-signers. In fact, 92% of private loans require a co-signer which really just means being backed up by a wealthy parent or family member who has a clean credit score and can guarantee your loan. To me, that felt like such a backward system because the whole point of going to school is to do better than your family and to create future potential in your growth. I'm happy to walk through the ways that we've addressed this with Stride's products, but that was really where we started.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkoM2kAG-fM
Can you describe Stride Financing’s three products? [4:08]
We have three products on the market and are continuing to grow our product set. They range on the spectrum of product differentiation and then differentiation on access. Each of our products is non-co-signer based. Anytime you come to Stride, you know that you are going to be evaluated based on your future potential, not your historical background. That's a core belief at Stride. With that being said,
All About UVM’s Larner School of Medicine [Show Summary]
The University of Vermont’s Larner School of Medicine’s new Associate Dean for Admissions, Leila Amiri, shares the hallmarks of the program, including its active learning curriculum and mission centered around respect, kindness, and cultural humility.
Interview with Dr. Leila Amiri, Associate Dean for Admissions at UVM Larner School of Medicine [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 494th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's medical school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz and complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Dr. Leila Amiri, UVM Larner's new, as of June 2022, Associate Dean for Admissions, comes to Larner from the University of Illinois College of Medicine, where she was Associate Dean for Admissions and Recruitment. Previously, she was Director of Admissions and Financial Aid for the University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine. She holds a Ph.D. from North Central University and an MA and BS degree from the University of South Florida. Amiri is a member of the Association of American Colleges Advancing Holistic Review and Alignment Working Group, National Chair of the AAMC BA/MD Affiliate Group and National Chair for the Committee on AAMC Professional Development Initiative. Dr. Amiri was also a guest last year in her previous role, and it's a pleasure to have her back on Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you give us an overview of UVM Larner's College of Medicine's program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:12]
I'll be happy to. At Larner College of Medicine, we have a big history of training medical students. We're actually celebrating our bicentennial, so the class that's meeting for 2023 will be the 200th class that we've seated. We've come a long way in terms of the educational model. We're most known for our active learning model. Students are really at the center of our learning model and its active, student-centered learning all based on educational pedagogy and adult learning principles. There’s a lot of community engagement with our students here and at our clinical sites which are in Vermont and in Connecticut.
What does active learning mean in practical terms? [3:11]
When you look at educational philosophy and pedagogy, adult learners need to really be invested in what they're learning. Not only do they need to be invested in what they're learning, but they also have to find meaning and value in it. They have to be at the center of constructing the information.
There's very little lecturing that happens here for our students. There's time that they spend on their own before they come to class. Think of a flipped classroom model. They spend a lot of time on their own looking at basic information and then when they join us in the classroom setting, there’s a lot of group activity, engaging with their peers, and working through problems.
It's not completely problem-based learning, but there's problem-based learning, case-based learning, and team-based learning. We have all of these different models where students are not sitting there just as recipients of information, but really they're constructing the information with each other as they're going through the different phases of their learning.
They're getting cases, they're getting problems, and they're working in teams. When you think about the way these things look, they become progressively more complex and progressively more sophisticated in terms of the case that they're engaging with. For example, they might not receive all of the information that they need, which is typical in a clinical setting. They will get a patient scenario and there'll be some gaps in that knowledge.
ER Physician, filmmaker, popular speaker and travel company founder. Here how it all comes together [Show Summary]
Dr. Calvin Sun is an emergency room physician, known for his blog-turned-travel company. During the pandemic, his travel content quickly shifted to real-time COVID updates as he chronicled his experience as an emergency room doctor in Manhattan. He has gathered all of these experiences into his newly released book, The Monsoon Diaries: A Doctor’s Journey of Hope and Healing from the ER Frontlines to the Far Reaches of the World.
Interview with Dr. Calvin Sun, Founder and CEO, The Monsoon Diaries [Show Notes]
Welcome for the 493rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for joining me. Given the time of year, I'd like to highlight for today's listeners a wonderful resource if and when you're invited to a medical school interview, Accepted’s free download called The Ultimate Guide to Medical School Interview Success. In the guide, you learn how to prepare for interviews, including the difficult questions, how to make sure your body language matches your intent, and what is proper follow-up after your interview. Grab your free copy at accepted.com/ultimatemediv and enhance your chance of acceptance.
It's really hard to summarize Dr. Calvin Sun's bio, but I'll try anyway. Calvin graduated from Columbia in 2008 and in 2014, he graduated from SUNY Downstate College of Medicine and then began his residency in emergency medicine at Montefiore and Jacobi Medical Centers. He also was the director of Resident Wellness at Jacobi.
In his non-existent spare time during medical school, he somehow managed to found and now runs The Monsoon Diaries, which he describes as a blog-turned-travel company. The Monsoon Diaries organizes flexible budget trips and has gone to over 128 countries in the past six years. He's also a filmmaker, popular speaker and activist in the Asian American community emergency room physician, and, at one time at least, was a clinical assistant professor of Emergency Medicine.
Listeners, I invite you to listen to accepted.com/254 for the incredible story of how Calvin Sun became Dr. Sun, founded Monsoon Diaries, the travel company, and portrays his experience as an emergency room physician in Manhattan, the corona pandemic’s epicenter in 2020.
To start, I'd like to ask you how you came to write your just-released book, The Monsoon Diaries: A Doctor’s Journey of Hope and Healing from the ER Frontlines to the Far Reaches of the World. What's the story behind the book? [3:12]
The story is my life in a nutshell, in a show-don't-tell fashion. It can also be seen as a love letter of gratitude because it's being released at the tail end of what we hope to be the worst or the end of the pandemic. I was approached by a literary agent two years ago. It was a totally cold approach in January 2021, and they asked if I'd be interested in writing a book. I think I had mentioned to you in our prior podcast, episode 254, that I have this habit of writing, which is what caused my Monsoon Diaries blog to turn into a community. I was writing live and blogging live on my travels while I was a full-time medical student. People started following along and it turned itself into a community.
During the pandemic, I did the same thing. We couldn't travel during the pandemic. It was not ethical, so I worked all the time, and I blogged about it in the same way I would on a trip because it was all new territory and new frontiers. That's the only thing I knew how to do to keep myself alive when I couldn't travel. It was the next best thing. People followed along, one of whom was a literary agent who then wanted to turn it into a book so I said, "Sure." One thing led to another, and two years later we now have a book published by Harper Collins in bookstores since September 27th.
What do you hope people take away from The Monsoon Diaries? [4:57]
Do you need an MBA as an entrepreneur? [Show Summary]
What does it take to become an entrepreneur who drives impact and change? Is an MBA necessary? Inge Kerkloh-Devif, Senior Executive Director and Senior Vice President of the HEC Paris Innovation & Entrepreneurship Center, shares her thoughts.
Interview with Inge Kerkloh-Devif, Sr. Exec. Dir. & Sr. Vice President of the HEC Paris Innovation & Entrepreneurship Center [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 492nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you trying to figure out how you should approach the four to eight applications that you're planning to submit when applying to an MBA program? You can get tips and answers by taking Accepted's free, short quiz – just six questions – at accepted.com/mapmba. By taking the quiz, you'll get a sense of how well you're approaching this critical process and gain access to relevant resources, both free and paid, that will provide you with an effective and efficient strategy for your MBA application effort.
Our guest today, Inge Kerkloh-Devif, earned her masters in Marketing and Communications at HEC Paris in 2006. Since then, she worked in business in Paris and then became Executive Vice President of HEC Paris's Executive Education Program, focusing on Global Business Development. In 2019, she moved into her current role as Senior Executive Director and Senior Vice President of the HEC Paris Innovation & Entrepreneurship Center. In 2021, she added to her responsibilities the role of Co-Site Lead Executive at the Creative Destruction Lab in Paris in partnership with the Innovation & Entrepreneurship Center.
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Can you tell us a little bit about both HEC's Innovation & Entrepreneurship Center and the Creative Destruction Lab in Paris? [2:11]
Of course. The Innovation & Entrepreneurship Center is the whole ecosystem we have built as a school around innovators and entrepreneurs. As we say, we think, we teach, and we act around innovation and entrepreneurship. That means we do research on innovation and entrepreneurship. We have more than 20 programs we are teaching at the school to teach innovation and entrepreneurship to our students. And we have all of our incubator acceleration programs, so students are learning by doing. Entrepreneurship is really part of the DNA of the school.
The Creative Destruction Lab, or CDL, was founded 10 years ago in Toronto, Canada at the Rotman Management School. They're now partnering with 12 universities all over the world to offer this objective-based program from massively scalable, seed-stage science and technology-based companies. It's really an acceleration program for deep tech. The program has an intake from more than 600 companies per year. We have one lab in Paris, we have one lab on climate, and one lab on space.
What's the difference between deep tech and tech? [4:15]
Very good question. I think I can give 10 different answers to this. For us, we can see this really emerging more and more in engineering and scientific projects. Those are really long-term projects. We are working with scientists and engineers to get these projects to grow. For us, it's specifically based on scientific and engineering projects to give this deep tech long-term projects. When I say we are working with scientists and engineers, they're coming out of the laboratories. It's very research-based.
If I have a business idea, or maybe I don't yet have a business idea, but I know that I want to be an entrepreneur at some point in my career, how can an MBA help me succeed? [5:33]
I think of these as two different stages.
If you already have your idea or if you're just joining an MBA, what we can see is very often, students are launching their business or their ideas a little bit after completing their MBA. They learn all the basics, they build their network,
Welcome to the 491st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me.
I am taking a week off for family time this week. As a result, I decided to air an encore of one of our most popular shows of 2022: All You Want to Know About Georgetown Medical School’s Admissions.
I chose this interview with Dr. Ellen Dugan, Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid at Georgetown University School of Medicine not only because of its popularity, but because Dean Dugan gave wonderful insight not only into Georgetown’s admissions process, but into what many schools seek through their admission process.
If you like this episode and want to test out whether you are competitive at your target medical schools, take the free Medical School Admissions Quiz at accepted.com/medquiz. It’s a brief assessment that will give you valuable information into your competitiveness as well as suggestions for improving your qualifications and competitiveness. Take it today at accepted.com/medquiz. Thanks as always for listening to Admissions Straight Talk. I’ll talk to you again next week! In the meantime, here is All You Want to Know About Georgetown Medical School’s Admissions with Dean Ellen Dugan.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related links:
Georgetown University School of MedicineMed School Admissions Quiz Are you competitive?Georgetown University School of Medicine Secondary Application Essay TipsAccepted’s Med School Admissions Consulting Services
Related shows:
How To Get Accepted To Washington University School Of Medicine in St. LouisAn Interview With the Temple Katz School of Medicine Admissions DeanU Penn Perelman School of Medicine: Interview with Admissions Dean, Dr. Neha VapiwalaUW School of Medicine: Interview with Admissions Dean, Dr. LeeAnna MuzquizAre You Rushing to Attend Rush Medical CollegeWhat Med School Applicants Must Know About Johns HopkinsDeep Dive Into Duke Medical: An Interview With Dr. Linton Yee, Associate Dean of Admissions
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Find out what's new at Wharton's Global EMBA program [Show Summary]
Wharton’s first-ever online Global MBA Program for Executives is here and Dean Peggy Bishop Lane is diving into everything this exciting program has to offer for students across the globe.
Interview with Peggy Bishop Lane, Vice Dean of the Wharton MBA Program for Executives [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 490th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Before I dive into today's interview, I want to invite you to download Ace the EMBA: Expert Advice for the Rising Executive. This free guide will complement today's podcast and give you suggestions on how to choose the right Executive MBA program, differentiate yourself from your competition in a positive way, and present yourself effectively as a future business leader who will bring credit to any program lucky enough to have you. Download Ace the EMBA at accepted.com/aceemba.
It gives me great pleasure to have, for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Peggy Bishop Lane, the Vice Dean of the Wharton MBA Program for Executives. Dean Bishop Lane earned her PhD in Accounting from Northwestern University. She started her professorial career at NYU Stern and then moved to Wharton in 1997. She has been the Vice Dean for the MBA Program for Executives and an Adjunct Professor of Accounting since 2012.
To start, can you give an overview of the Wharton Global Executive MBA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:14]
Absolutely. I think the main thing to know is that we intend for this global cohort to look very much like our existing Philadelphia and San Francisco cohorts. It's going to be the same curriculum with essentially the same faculty and the same admissions requirements. I hope that it's actually more similar to what people already know about our program than it is different.
Of course, what's unique is that you don't have to be in-person every other weekend as you do in Philadelphia and San Francisco. What we've created is a remote opportunity to do our program. With that said, it's very important to us that it's not fully remote because we know how important an in-person experience can be to the student experience.
The truly unique part for us is the residential factor here, and we've got six different residential weeks that we've incorporated into the program. The first two are purposely very close together because we want the students to create some relationships and then solidify them very shortly after. Right now, our Philadelphia and San Francisco cohorts start together in Philadelphia and we're going to start our Global cohort with them. So all three groups will start at the same time for about a week in Philadelphia, and our Global cohort will stay on a little bit longer to give them that opportunity to really get to know each other well. Then about three months later, we'll bring them back together in San Francisco. They'll get to see that campus and feel the connection to our group out in San Francisco for about a week as well. The third week to cap off their first year together will probably be in some location outside of the United State, but it’s still to be determined. Then we'll have three more residential weeks in the second year so that they can keep those bonds really alive.
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Are the last three residential weeks intended to be in Philadelphia, San Francisco, or somewhere else? [4:29]
The first one will be another one where they get to interact with our Philadelphia and San Francisco students. We just finished what's called our Global Business Week, where we send our affiliates in San Francisco students to their choice of four different locations. We split them up, we mix them together, and we're going to add a fifth location and then bring the global cohort into that. They'll do that in September of their second year.
Dreaming of a spot at Georgetown Law? Here's all you need to know [Show Summary]
It’s hard to get a law education any closer to the heartbeat of policy and legal action than at Washington D.C.’s Georgetown Law School, labeled by the Washington Post as “the country’s most popular law school.” Andrew Cornblatt, the Dean of Admissions explains exactly what it takes to get accepted to this top-ranked and highly competitive program.
Interview with Andrew Cornblatt, Dean of Admissions at Georgetown Law [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 489th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or perhaps later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it's all free.
For today's interview, I'm delighted to have Andrew Cornblatt, Metta and Keith Krach Dean of Admissions and Associate Vice President of Graduate Admissions and Enrollment at Georgetown Law. A graduate of Harvard University and Boston College School of Law, Dean Cornblatt has been a member of the Georgetown community since 1980. He became Dean of Admissions at Georgetown Law in 1991 and served as Dean of Admissions at the Georgetown Public Policy Institute, now the McCourt School of Public Policy from 2002 to 2016. It's hard to find someone with more experience in admissions.
Can you give an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Georgetown Law School JD program? [2:36]
I think the two things that are most unique about Georgetown are its size and its location. Georgetown Law is a large law school. I think it's among the largest in the United States, with 575 entering students. Even though it’s a big law school, we work very hard to make it a big law school with a small law school feel. These are small classes and the campus is beautiful. It's like a small college with lots of different buildings. We pay particular attention to individual students and their needs. We have big programs, but we have individual people who deserve individual attention and that's what we focus on.
As far as location goes, we’re right at the heart of Washington D.C. in the center of law in the USA. This is where everything gets made, interpreted, enforced, and implemented. That all happens within a 10-block radius of where I'm sitting right now in my office. When you have that as a resource, and that's available to you, it enhances the electricity of what you're studying. It's hands-on stuff, but it allows Georgetown to be at the crossroads of theory and practice.
When I went to law school all those years ago, and when people go to law school now, so much of it is about the theory of law and what happened way back then and cases from the 1800s. All of that's important. I'm not saying it isn't. But this generation of law students is hands-on. They watch it happen on video. They stay attuned to every development every 10th of a second through social media and all of the alerts they get. This is a place that's right at the center of all of that. That's part of our course structure too. The plus side of being at a big law school is you have that many more courses from which to choose. But if you want to know where the heart is beating, it's right outside my window. I think that's what excites students when they come here.
What are some of the programs that are unique to Georgetown Law because of its location? [5:39]
Let me give you two, even though there are probably 200.
So first, all law schools have clinical programs. It's a sort of supervised practice where you represent clients. All the clinics are different. Georgetown has the most in the country. This is an expensive education, but we are committed to doing this.
Expert tips on how to approach your MBA application [Show Summary]
What’s the right way to approach an MBA application? Like a productivity challenge? A jigsaw puzzle? A to-do list? Linda Abraham weighs in and shares her expert tips to master this process.
Linda Abraham, Founder and CEO of Accepted, shares her insights into how best to approach your MBA application [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 487th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Today is going to be a solo show where I answer common questions while also providing information on how to approach your MBA application. If you're not applying for an MBA, there's still going to be a lot for you to learn from this episode, specifically from its strategic approach to the application process and its focus on using every element of the application to your advantage, not to mention thinking about where you want to end up after you get the degree.
For you, MBAs, when you finish listening to this episode, you're invited to take a free six-question quiz at Accepted.com/MapMBA to see how well you've absorbed the lessons in this show. You'll also gain access to other relevant resources, both free and paid, that you can use as you attempt to incorporate the advice contained in this podcast into your strategy for a successful MBA application.
I realize it is an enormous effort to apply successfully to an MBA program, especially if you're applying to top MBA programs with acceptance rates like 6%, 10%, and 20%. That means they reject the overwhelming majority of applicants who submit applications.
Indeed, the elite programs reject many, if not most, admissible candidates. You have a challenge, even if you have good stats, and that challenge is even greater if you don't. Actually, it's really a few challenges:
How can you make your application as impressive as possible?How are you going to tell your story and effectively present the non-statistical elements of your application, specifically the essays and, when necessary, a video?How can you make the process efficient?
Those are the questions I'm going to address. Listen in. There's a lot to cover here.
How to choose the right schools [2:47]
The foundation of any effective application process is choosing the right schools to apply to. In order to determine what those schools are, you must have professional direction, defined for MBAs as having a preferred industry in which you want to work and a function you would like to perform. Note that this is not necessarily what you want to study. It's different. The basic question is, where do you want to end up? What's your goal for the MBA? Because that goal, or direction, becomes your north star in the application process and when you arrive on campus.
You also need competitive academic qualifications. You're going to have to show through your application that you can handle both the communications and quantitative demands of a top MBA program. These qualifications are usually revealed via your transcript and your test score, but they can also be revealed via certifications and work experience, your application itself, your writing, and your interview.
The third thing you're going to need is a sense of what's important to you in an MBA program. It might be location. This can also be a part of your professional direction. For example, you may want to work in London or you might want to work on Wall Street or you might want to work in Silicon Valley. Those are more professional, goal-oriented location questions. What I'm talking about is just personal preference. Do you prefer being in a small city or a big city? Do you prefer a warm climate or a cold climate? Do you have a significant other whose work and preferences you need to account for? Do you prefer to be close to your family or far from your family?
You’ll also have to consider instructional focus and curriculum: case versus experiential learning versus a combination of cas...
Tune in to hear all that Cornell Johnson's dynamic MBA program has to offer, and more [Show Summary]
Eddie Asbie, Executive Director of Admissions and Scholarship at Cornell Johnson Graduate School of Management, dives into this dynamic program that equips students for careers in finance, tech, healthcare, and more.
Interview with Eddie Asbie, Executive Director of Admissions and Scholarship at Cornell Johnson Graduate School of Management [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 488th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Before we speak with our wonderful guest, I want to invite you to take advantage of a fantastic tool at Accepted, the MBA Admissions Quiz. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at those programs? Accepted's MBA Admissions Quiz can not only give you a quick reality check, but also tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free. Use the calculator at accepted.com/mbaquiz.
It gives me great pleasure to have, for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Eddie Asbie, Executive Director of Admissions and Scholarship at Cornell Johnson Graduate School of Management. Eddie earned his bachelor's in communications from the University at Buffalo and a masters from SUNY Buffalo in Student Personnel Administration. Between his undergraduate and graduate degrees, he worked at SUNY Buffalo and while in grad school, he served as an Admissions Advisor at the University of Buffalo. He joined the Johnson School in 2012 as an Assistant Director of Admissions and Financial Aid and became the Executive Director of Admissions and Scholarship in June 2021.
Can you give an overview of the Cornell Johnson full-time MBA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:16]
We're located in Ithaca, New York, which is in central New York. Our MBA program is a general management MBA program that allows our students to really get the basic business fundamentals while also expanding personally and professionally throughout their career goals. We are known for elements of our program, such as our immersion learning program, which gives our students the opportunity to immerse themselves in their particular career paths. This happens in the spring semester of their first year. It gives students that hands-on experience while taking advanced level courses in their particular immersions so they can ultimately be able to hit the ground running with the internship itself.
We also have Cornell Tech, MBA program located in New York City. If you are looking for a residential two-year program, there are opportunities for our program to collaborate with the Cornell Tech campus in New York City.
There are a lot of other great features like flexibility in the program to work with other departments. Our program really gives you the opportunity to customize the program the way you best see fit. We understand it's a business school, but we also understand the direction that our students are going into spans so many different industries, whether it is hospitality, healthcare, tech, or anything else. We have some great programs here at Cornell that allow students to be able to tap into other areas.
Is there anything new at Cornell Johnson that you'd like to highlight? [4:49]
I will say that within my time here at Johnson, we've done a pretty good job of making sure that we stay relevant with what's happening and changes to our curriculum. One of the new exciting things that I would like to share is the opportunity to do a 1+1 program, which is a full year here in Ithaca, along with a full year at Cornell Tech.
This program gives our students, who are applying to the two-year residential MBA program, the opportunity of going through the standard core in the first semester and during a tech-focused immersion experience in the second semester. Then in the second year, you would join the Cornell Tech students, focusing on their startup curriculum where you'...
All you need to know when applying to graduate engineering programs [Show Summary]
How should you approach an application to a graduate engineering program? Dr. Karin Ash, a top-notch admissions consultant and career coach for aspiring engineers, shares everything you need to know.
Interview with Dr. Karin Ash, Accepted consultant and former Dir. of the Career Management Center at Cornell’s Johnson School, career coach at Cornell’s College of Engineering, and Dir. of Cornell Career Services [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 486th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Do you know how to get accepted to graduate engineering programs? Dr. Karin Ash does, and she shares her knowledge and insight in Accepted's guide, “Applying to Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know.” Download your free copy at accepted.com/486download.
Our guest today is Dr. Karin Ash, author of the guide that I just mentioned, and the former Director of Cornell University's Career Services, Director of the Career Management Center at Cornell Johnson School, and a career coach at Cornell's College of Engineering. Dr. Ash joined Accepted in 2015 as an admissions consultant and career coach. She has been guiding clients to acceptance at leading masters and PhD programs in engineering at top universities, including UC Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, Cal Tech, Cambridge University, Columbia, Cornell, Duke Georgetown, Harvard, MIT, Northwestern, NYU, Stanford, UCLA, USC, University of Michigan, UT, UVA, and University of Washington, among others. She's here to discuss how to get accepted to graduate engineering programs.
Much of your experience before joining Accepted was in the career guidance side of graduate and undergraduate education, how do employers influence admissions decisions? [2:16]
They can influence it in a couple of ways. Let's say all of a sudden, a lot of employers decide they need more computer scientists. The programs at a university might expand the number of candidates that they are willing to bring in. It can also make a difference if they emphasize certain areas within an academic area. For example, they can say they need more calculus because the new hires are coming in with not as much math skills as they might need. So they can affect the curriculum.
The other way is if I'm sitting on an admissions committee and I going through files trying to decide who should be interviewed for a possible spot and an applicant’s story seems very clear, and it seems like they would not have a hard time finding employment. It can make a difference if I think the story doesn't make sense, and I don't think they're going to have an easy time getting employment. It doesn't mean they're totally out of the picture, but I might put them in another pile because schools get ranked somewhat based on what percentage of graduates find employment and what their salary level is. Those are some ways employers can influence admissions.
I think teamwork has been a skill that employers have increasingly valued over the last 20-40 years. Is that something schools are emphasizing more in admissions decisions? [4:19]
Absolutely. That's a good point, Linda. I think that's been true in the MBA world for quite a while, but with engineers, more and more companies are insisting that people work on teams. They realize that there's more productivity and a more creative outcome when you have diverse teams working together, not only within a department but across departments. You can get into a school without having great leadership or communication skills, but if you have them, it's an asset and there's more assurity that you'll get in.
It also depends on the department. If you're being hired for a coding position, it's going to be less important than if you're being hired for operations management or civil engineering, where you're dealing with construction sites and architects, and you've got to be able to communicate across many dif...
All you need to know when applying to graduate engineering programs [Show Summary]
How should you approach an application to a graduate engineering program? Dr. Karin Ash, a top-notch admissions consultant and career coach for aspiring engineers, shares everything you need to know.
Interview with Dr. Karin Ash, Accepted consultant and former Dir. of the Career Management Center at Cornell’s Johnson School, career coach at Cornell’s College of Engineering, and Dir. of Cornell Career Services [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 486th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Do you know how to get accepted to graduate engineering programs? Dr. Karin Ash does, and she shares her knowledge and insight in Accepted's guide, “Applying to Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know.” Download your free copy at accepted.com/486download.
Our guest today is Dr. Karin Ash, author of the guide that I just mentioned, and the former Director of Cornell University's Career Services, Director of the Career Management Center at Cornell Johnson School, and a career coach at Cornell's College of Engineering. Dr. Ash joined Accepted in 2015 as an admissions consultant and career coach. She has been guiding clients to acceptance at leading masters and PhD programs in engineering at top universities, including UC Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, Cal Tech, Cambridge University, Columbia, Cornell, Duke Georgetown, Harvard, MIT, Northwestern, NYU, Stanford, UCLA, USC, University of Michigan, UT, UVA, and University of Washington, among others. She's here to discuss how to get accepted to graduate engineering programs.
Much of your experience before joining Accepted was in the career guidance side of graduate and undergraduate education, how do employers influence admissions decisions? [2:16]
They can influence it in a couple of ways. Let's say all of a sudden, a lot of employers decide they need more computer scientists. The programs at a university might expand the number of candidates that they are willing to bring in. It can also make a difference if they emphasize certain areas within an academic area. For example, they can say they need more calculus because the new hires are coming in with not as much math skills as they might need. So they can affect the curriculum.
The other way is if I'm sitting on an admissions committee and I going through files trying to decide who should be interviewed for a possible spot and an applicant’s story seems very clear, and it seems like they would not have a hard time finding employment. It can make a difference if I think the story doesn't make sense, and I don't think they're going to have an easy time getting employment. It doesn't mean they're totally out of the picture, but I might put them in another pile because schools get ranked somewhat based on what percentage of graduates find employment and what their salary level is. Those are some ways employers can influence admissions.
I think teamwork has been a skill that employers have increasingly valued over the last 20-40 years. Is that something schools are emphasizing more in admissions decisions? [4:19]
Absolutely. That's a good point, Linda. I think that's been true in the MBA world for quite a while, but with engineers, more and more companies are insisting that people work on teams. They realize that there's more productivity and a more creative outcome when you have diverse teams working together, not only within a department but across departments. You can get into a school without having great leadership or communication skills, but if you have them, it's an asset and there's more assurity that you'll get in.
It also depends on the department. If you're being hired for a coding position, it's going to be less important than if you're being hired for operations management or civil engineering, where you're dealing with construction sites and architects, and you've got to be able to communicate across many dif...
What's new at Washington University School of Medicine? [Show Summary]
Dr. Valerie Ratts, Associate Dean for Admissions at Washington University School of Medicine, shares what's new in the program, including the Gateway Curriculum and the virtual interview experience.
Interview with Dr. Valerie Ratts, Associate Dean for Admissions at Washington University School of Medicine [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 485th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you will not only get an assessment, but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Today's guest, Dr. Valerie Ratts, earned her MD at Johns Hopkins, where she also did her residency in obstetrics and gynecology as well as a fellowship in reproductive endocrinology. She joined the Washington University faculty in 1994 and currently serves as Associate Dean for Admissions and a Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Washington University School of Medicine.
Can you give us an overview of the WashU School of Medicine program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:52]
Well, actually, our curriculum has changed since I last spoke to you. We're very excited about it. It's called the Gateway Curriculum. We're reimagining how we should best be educating medical students for the future and we deliver that in three phases.
In phase one, we concentrate on the fundamentals and foundational modules in medicine. But we're integrating it the entire time. When you're getting basic science courses, we're integrating clinical problems, social sciences, health equity, and justice. All of those things come up during phase one. We also have clinical immersions during that period where students go into the clinical spaces for three weeks at three times during phase one. They’ll go to inpatient, outpatient, and peri-procedural spaces. The goal is not to be the physician. Yes, you get some clinical skills. Yes, you see how the different units work. But the goal is to get a perspective of how all the other healthcare providers in that space, including social workers, nurses, and pharmacists, work together. We think that medical students, at that point in their education, haven't quite learned all the bad habits that physicians get. They have a very unique perspective. We have small group sessions where the medical students will meet with other medical students and their professors to talk about the things that they observed in those spaces, good and bad. The thought is that when they become the physician down the road, they can reflect upon that period of time, and it will hopefully make them better doctors in the future. That's one of the things that we're doing in phase one, getting them very quickly into the clinical spaces and using that unique perspective that an early medical student has.
Then we have phase two. This is the gateway to clinical medicine. This is when students rotate through the six big specialties in medicine, OB/GYN, medicine, surgery, neurology, pediatrics, and psychiatry. All medical schools require you to rotate through these clinical services. You're basically trying on all the hats to learn what type of medicine you really enjoy. What we do uniquely in this phase of the curriculum is we have the clerkship start with bookends. In the beginning, we review foundational modules and science that we first taught in phase one that is applicable to the clerkship that you're going to be engaged in. We are reviewing that medicine to help you remember it, understand it, and to better apply it. This is this helical learning that we've integrated into our curriculum, and it seems to work really well. Then the students go,
Everything you need to know about the UCLA Anderson MBA program [Show Summary]
Alex Lawrence, UCLA Anderson’s Assistant Dean for MBA Admissions explores the hallmarks of the program and discusses what makes a competitive application.
Interview with Alex Lawrence, Asst. Dean of MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Anderson School of Management [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 484th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Before we get to our wonderful guest, I want to invite you to take advantage of a fantastic tool at Accepted, the MBA Admissions Quiz. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at those programs? Accepted's MBA Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just complete the quiz, which should only take about five minutes, and you'll not only get an assessment but also tips on how to actually improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free.
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It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk Alex Lawrence, Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Anderson School of Management, which just happens to be where I earned my MBA. Alex is a fellow Anderson alum who earned his MBA in 1999. Prior to that, he earned a bachelor's in Electrical Engineering. After earning his MBA, he worked in management consulting for four years and then returned to UCLA Anderson as Director of the Riordan Program. In 2012, he became first the director and then the Assistant Dean for MBA Admissions.
Can you give an overview of the Anderson full-time MBA program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive element? [2:15]
The UCLA Anderson MBA is obviously near and dear to my heart, being an alumnus of the program and now running the admission side of things. My relationship with the school goes back over 25 years.It’s a two-year program that balances the opportunity to go through the traditional core elements while also taking what you learn in the classroom to actually participate in a number of different experiential or practicum types of activities. We actually started school yesterday and today is day two for the class of 2024.
One of the things I think shows how we're always innovating in our program is that beyond traditional summer internships, more and more of our students are doing academic internships. Part of the graduation requirements is to satisfy a global requirement. Our students have been taking on some of those different opportunities for almost 10 years now, where they do a consulting project with a global company or perhaps they travel overseas.
We're a smallish class size of around 330 students. We don't necessarily look at students with just a business background. It's really diverse domestically, internationally, and across genders also career interests as well. We have students who go to a lot of different areas, not just consulting and finance, but real estate, entertainment, and more.
We're always trying to push the envelope, and we added a course in ethics to the core classes students need to take in order to graduate. Students have to participate in that. In our career services, there's a required class as well that our students have to take. There are a lot of different elements. Once you peel back the layers and learn more about Anderson, there's a lot to find out. I hope we'll get a chance to talk about a lot of that and more.
How does the Anderson course in ethics differ from traditional corporate social responsibility courses? [5:08]
Many times ethics are woven into some other elements of the curriculum like elective courses or case studies. Before the pandemic, we were working with students, who we always work hand-in-hand with to innovate our curriculum, and they wanted to create an all-day conference on ethics that would include a case competition ...
What’s new at Michigan Ross? [Show Summary]
Taya Sapp, Senior Associate Director of Admissions, shares all of the latest updates including a new dean, new testing policy, and a new essay question.
Interview with Taya Sapp, Senior Associate Director of Admissions at Michigan Ross School of Business [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 479th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. You've seen the stats that most people have a great return on their MBA investment, but what about you? Are you going to see that return? And how much will it be? We've created a tool that will help you assess whether the MBA is likely to be a good investment for you individually. Just go to accepted.com/mbaroicalc, complete the brief questionnaire, and you will not only get an assessment but also the opportunity to calculate different scenarios. And it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Taya Sapp, Senior Associate Director of Admissions at Michigan Ross School of Business. Taya practically bleeds Michigan blue. She graduated from the University of Michigan with a bachelor's degree in American Culture in 2003 and then worked as an Admissions Counselor at another college for several years before returning to Michigan. She joined the admissions staff at Michigan Ross in 2011, rose through the ranks, and today is the Senior Associate Director of Admissions.
Could you start with a basic overview of Ross's full-time MBA program for listeners who may not be that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:09]
I think the one thing that we are really known for is learning by doing. I always like to tell people if you learn best by doing, there's no better place to be than Michigan Ross. I can give a couple of examples of that. The cornerstone is MAP which stands for Multidisciplinary Action Projects. It's a seven-week consulting project that every single student does at the end of their first year at Ross. This past year we had projects with Blue Origin, a social responsibility project with Amazon, and we also had nonprofit students analyzing data sets to help design fundraising campaigns. There’s a pretty big variety in the projects. It's a huge differentiator for us because students spend a full seven weeks doing it and then get to do their internship. A lot of times, people think of it as almost two internships. It's also a great opportunity for travel. We did start sending people internationally again this year, and the nice thing is the sponsor covers all travel expenses.
Can you tell us a little more about what's new in the Ross MBA program? [3:33]
We have a new Dean starting on August 1st. We are really excited to have her come to Ross and see her vision for leading our community here. There are a few other things I'm excited about. We started something called the Business+Tech initiative this past year which is a hub for everything tech. They launched a tech literacy week, which is basically a bunch of workshops to help people orient themselves to different areas of tech. It covers everything from how a lack of diversity can impact artificial intelligence to boot camps and machine learning and different programs like Python and Blockchain. They’re really helping prepare students for not just the recruiting aspect but also the actual knowledge in tech.
We have seven different student investment funds at Ross, and the newest one just started this year. It's called the Michigan Clean Venture, and it's focused on clean tech investments. I think it’s really exciting that our students saw a need for that, and we were able to launch it this past year.
I'm really excited to see both of those growing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42r65-N047Y
Is there anything that you think people generally don't realize about Ross that you'd like them to know or any myths you want to dispel? [5:09]
Wondering if you're a good fit for the Geisinger Commonwealth SOM? [Show Summary]
Dr. Michelle Schmude, Associate Dean of Admissions at Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine, shares everything that’s new in the program, including a revised curriculum and a unique opportunity that allows students to graduate debt free.
Interview with Dr. Michelle Schmude, Associate Dean of Admissions at Geisinger Commonwealth SOM [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 482nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Do you know how to get accepted to medical school? Well, Dr. Suzi Schweikert does, and she shares her knowledge and insight in Accepted's free guide, Med School Admissions: What You Need to Know to Get Accepted. Download your free copy at accepted.com/482download.
Today's guest, Dr. Michelle Schmude, has spent her career in higher ed administration and med school admissions. After earning her BA in History and Business, she went on to earn an MBA and then a Doctorate in Education from Wilkes University. Since 1996, she has worked in admissions, first as Dean of Full-Time Admissions at Point Park University, then at Kings College, and since 2015, as Director and then as Associate Dean of Admissions, Enrollment Management and Financial Aid at Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine. She's also an Associate Professor of Medical Education at Geisinger. Now that you know a little bit about Dr. Schmude, let's find out about Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine and its admissions policies.
Can you give us an overview of the Geisinger Commonwealth Med School program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:57]
Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine offers the MD degree, which is the Doctorate of Medicine, and we are an allopathic medical school. We are located in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and we were founded in 2008 as the Commonwealth Medical College, which transformed into Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine in 2017.
Right now, we enroll 115 students in each medical school class. Our MD curriculum is known as the Total Health Curriculum, and it is divided into three phases. The first phase prepares our students in terms of the principles of medical sciences and practices. The second phase would be our core clinical immersion. And the last phase is our career differentiation and exploration, which prepares students for the transition to residency.
Also, highlighted within our MD curriculum and our Total Health curriculum, we have six longitudinal themes, where our students are immersed in Health Equity and Justice, Personal and Professional Development, Health System Citizenship, Primary Care, Community Immersion, and Population Health. These themes are interwoven throughout the four years of our medical school program in both our basic sciences as well as our clinical sciences.
Are the themes something that a student chooses to focus on or does everybody cover all six themes through the three stages? [3:44]
That's a great question. All of our students participate in the six themes. Additionally, our students participate in active learning sessions. In our medical school curriculum, along with the six themes, we do not have any lectures. So our students prepare ahead of time and they come to class as active participants in their learning experiences. They’ll engage in small groups, workshops, reflection, and case-based learning. They also engage in early clinical experiences, and those experiences do have the six themes woven throughout.
It sounds like it's very much of a flipped classroom kind of experience. [4:39]
It absolutely is a flipped classroom.
We assume our students come to class prepared because they are provided with all of the materials ahead of time. They have that knowledge and they are able to engage in these active learning experiences to help further their understanding and application of the course content.
Tune in to hear all you need to know about the Executive Assessment [Show Summary]
Who is the Executive Assessment for? What is it? And how to prepare for it? Introduced by GMAC a few years ago, for the Executive MBA, the “EA” has gained credibility and acceptability for a variety of MBA programs. Brett Ethridge, test prep expert, weighs in and answers all these questions in this informative interview.
Interview with Brett Ethridge, founder and president of Dominate Test Prep [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 483rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. You've seen the stats that most people have a great return on their MBA investment. But what about you? Are you going to see that return? How much could it be? We've created a tool that will help you assess whether the MBA is likely to be a good investment for you individually. Just go to accepted.com/mbaroicalc, complete the brief questionnaire, and you’ll not only get an assessment but also the opportunity to calculate different scenarios. And it's all free.
Try the MBA ROI Calculator!
It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk, Brett Ethridge, founder and president of Dominate Test Prep. Brett earned his Bachelor's in Public Policy Studies from Duke in 2000 and then joined the Peace Corps for two years where he worked in Madagascar. He then earned a Master's in International Finance, Trade, and Economic Integration from the University of Denver. In 2010, he founded Dominate the GMAT, which became Dominate Test Prep. Today, Dominate Test Prep provides test preparation for the GMAT, the GRE, SAT, ACT, LSAT, and most importantly for today's conversation, GMAC's Executive Assessment. The Executive Assessment is accepted by many Executive MBA programs, an increasing number of part-time MBA programs, and even several highly ranked full-time MBA programs, including Columbia, Darden, Duke Fuqua, Georgetown, NYU Stern, UT McCombs, and Vanderbilt. Let's learn all about the Executive Assessment.
Let's start with a basic question. What is the Executive Assessment? [2:42]
It's a standardized test used as part of the admissions process for a wide range of primarily Executive MBA programs in the United States, but also overseas. It’s also being used by an increasing number of online MBA programs, part-time MBA programs, and full-time MBA programs. It's very similar in a lot of ways to the GMAT exam, which is the widely used entrance exam for business school, but different in distinct ways as well. In short, it's a standardized test that a lot of students are taking right now to get into various MBA programs.
Why did GMAC develop the Executive Assessment if it already had the GMAT? [3:32]
Because they were asked to (if the story is correct). I actually first learned about the Executive Assessment myself at a forum that the GMAC hosted at their headquarters in Ruston, Virginia back in 2018. I think the Executive Assessment had been around for maybe a year or so at that point. It's a fairly new exam at four or five years old. It was my first time really learning about the exam. At that point, only a couple dozen schools were even using it.
The story they told us, so this is straight from the GMAC's mouth, is that the admissions directors at a lot of the top executive MBA programs came to them and said, "Look, we love the GMAT. We're currently asking applicants for our Executive MBA programs to take the GMAT. But it's a really steep hurdle in the application process for a demographic of applicants who are in their forties, sometimes fifties. These people have been out of school for decades and now you're asking them to do the advanced math that's on the GMAT and spend months and months and months preparing. Can you come up with something that's a slightly lower barrier to entry? Not in terms of being easier, necessarily. We want to make sure that the applicants have the quantitative chops and also verbal reasonin...
Expert tips for MCAT success [Show Summary]
Todd Bennett, co-founder of The Berkeley Review and expert MCAT instructor, shares his best tips for preparing for and taking the test.
Todd Bennett, co-founder of The Berkeley Review and expert MCAT instructor [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 480th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for joining me. Before I introduce our guest today, I'd like to invite you to take Accepted's Med School Admissions Quiz. Ask yourself, "Am I ready to apply to my dream medical schools? Am I competitive at my target programs?" Accepted's Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check, just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but also actionable tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
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Our guest today is Todd Bennett, whom I met many years ago. He was, at the time, the CEO of the Berkeley Review, and for the entire time, since I met him those many moons ago, he's been an expert MCAT instructor, both for the Berkeley Review and on his own.
Is there anything new in terms of the MCAT and the MCAT prep world since we last spoke about a year ago? [1:55]
Well, the biggest thing is that COVID restrictions have basically simmered away and it's no longer the same concern it was. The content hasn't seemed to change much, but the delivery and all the stress and weird times looks like it's just going to go back to the regular shot. So that's the biggest thing. There are still some basic protocols, but it's so much less stressful than it was during the pandemic.
How do you recommend students prepare for the MCAT? [2:42]
The biggest thing at the very start is to look at what you're studying. The only company that puts out realistic questions that have been on the MCAT, or are very similar, is the AAMC. It’s the company that is responsible for the test. Start with their materials. They have an MCAT guide that's the best thing on the market. All these people with “super secrets” are pretty much just people who've read that book from start to finish.
They're pretty straightforward in what percentages of the questions they give, how they ask their questions, and what they're looking for. If you start there and really analyze and break that down, you will realize that you don't have to know the material at the same level you studied for college. It's not that it's harder or easier. It's different in that you have to apply it.
I'll take physics, for instance. It’s one of the topics I taught for many years. In college, people memorize equations, learn to do problems, show their work, box their answer, and pray for partial credit. That's physics in a nutshell. On the MCAT, they're going to talk about some experiment they do in biochemistry with some machine that uses an electric field, and they'll want to know, "What's true of this electric field if we turn up the voltage", or, "What's true if we move the plates further apart or closer together?" Suddenly you have to take that physics, and apply it to a bio experiment.
Getting used to that is the hardest thing I find people have to do. They spend so much time memorizing facts that they never take time to get used to what the questions and passages are like, and they get shocked when they start doing AAMC materials. It’s the number one reason why people postpone or have to repeat. My best advice is to start with the real deal, analyze it, learn what you can from it, and then start your study.
How much time should an applicant budget for MCAT prep? [4:42]
It starts with an honest look in the mirror and assessing what you know and what you don't know. How did you take your class? Did you take one of those notoriously easy online classes? Or did you take a more challenging class? Figure out what you know and how much you've covered.
In general,
Hear about possible changes to the law admissions process and how to get accepted [Show Summary]
Mark Hill, Senior Director of Admissions at Duke Law, has worked in admissions for twenty years. In this episode, he shares his thoughts on how law schools will be affected by a potential recession and the possible elimination of a test requirement. Mark explores how applicants, especially those hoping to get accepted to Duke, should handle the shifting landscape.
Interview with Mark Hill, Senior Director of Admissions at Duke Law [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 481st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your qualifications and your chances of acceptance. And it's all free.
I'm delighted to have an Admissions Straight Talk, Mark Hill, Senior Director of Admissions at Duke Law. Mark earned his bachelor's degree in Cultural Anthropology from Duke, and then later earned a master's in Higher Ed from Northwestern, where he also served as Assistant Director of Admissions. In 2002, joined Duke Law as an Admissions officer. Since 2013, he has served Duke Law as Senior Director of Admissions.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Duke Law School JD program? [2:21]
The way that I think about it, there are two elements that characterize Duke. One is that we're among a handful of really top-tier national law schools with students who come from all over and have really great job prospects all across the country. Most of our grads don't stay in North Carolina. They're looking elsewhere. There's a handful of law schools like that.
The other thing that makes us distinctive is that we have a relatively small class size. We're in a smaller city and so we’re a smaller school. We can really give individual attention to students. We help everybody who comes here craft their own course through the opportunities at Duke to get to where they want to end up.
Because it's a smaller school and a smaller city, we really attract folks who are intending to be full-time law students. They're focused on engaging with one another and with their professors. I suppose it's not for everybody, but for people who want that kind of full-on focused experience, it can be really great.
I've often mentioned a couple of distinctive dual degrees. We have two JD/LLM degrees that can be completed in the three years that it would take to do a JD so they don't add any additional time. You can get a really good concentration and an LLM focusing either on international and comparative law and all the spectrum of the things that means from public law to finance and corporate transactions. The other one focuses on law and entrepreneurship. Maybe you want to be a lawyer who works in the startup space or who works with venture capital. Maybe you have entrepreneurial ideas of your own. Maybe you just want to work for law firms that help provide legal services to those kinds of companies. The JD/LLM in law and entrepreneurship is a great thing there. Those are Duke-specific dual degrees. Of course, we have dual degrees with graduate programs like JD/MBA but I like to mention those as things that are particularly distinctive about Duke.
This part of North Carolina has a lot of tech and startup activity because of Duke, UNC, and North Carolina State which are three major research universities in this area. A lot of big tech companies are actually moving in here like Google, Apple, and Meta. It’s a natural fit not only because there's a growing demand for lawyers with those skills across the board but also because Duke is in a really good place to help our students con...
Find out what's new to the U. of Colorado SOM curriculum [Show Summary]
The University of Colorado School of Medicine has introduced a new curriculum that includes clinical training starting in year two and a longitudinal approach to patient care. Dr. Jeffrey SooHoo, the Assistant Dean for Admissions explains everything applicants will want to know about these changes and gives the inside scoop on how to get accepted.
Interview with Dr. Jeffrey SooHoo, Assistant Dean for Admissions, U. of Colorado SOM [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 478th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Do you know how to get accepted to medical school? Accepted's Dr. Suzi Schweikert does and she shares her knowledge and insight in Accepted's free guide, Med School Admissions: What You Need to Know to Get Accepted. Download your free copy!
Also, thank you and a shoutout to Nareg Keshisian who left a five-star review for Admissions Straight Talk on Apple Podcasts. He wrote:
"Linda does a great job answering many of the questions that are on students' minds. These podcasts give greater insight into what schools are looking for in applicants that would be otherwise difficult to find elsewhere. I would highly recommend them to other applicants who are looking for more information about the admissions process for particular schools."
Thank you again, Nareg. Your feedback is deeply appreciated. Giving insight to applicants into what schools are looking for is exactly the goal of Admissions Straight Talk. Your words are high praise.
The next step in achieving Admissions Straight Talk’s goal is introducing today's guest, Dr. Jeffrey SooHoo. After attending Boston College as an undergrad, Dr. SooHoo earned his MD at Loyola Stritch School of Medicine in 2009. He did his residency at the University of Colorado in Ophthalmology and a fellowship in glaucoma, also at the University of Colorado. He has been Assistant Dean for Admissions at the University of Colorado School of Medicine since 2020.
The University of Colorado School of Medicine introduced a new curriculum almost exactly a year ago. Can you walk us through it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:14]
Absolutely. Our new curriculum is called the Trek Curriculum and all the different elements are named after elements of a hike in Colorado. It was named by our students. You start out in the Plains and progress to the Foothills followed by the Alpine and finally the Summit.
There's a number of things that I'll point out as being unique features of the curriculum. I think the biggest change is the move of the core clinical year from the third year of training to the second year of training. That decreases our core preclinical time from two years in the classroom to just one.
A question I get often is, "Dean SooHoo, do you now expect me to learn two years of material in one year?" And the answer to that is no. We thought really critically about the elements of our preclinical curriculum and what needed to be in there to prepare you to be a clinical student. I think there was a lot of in those first two years that, while interesting and maybe relevant to medicine in some way, didn't necessarily need to be learned during the time before you went out into the clinical space.
Students are eager to get into the clinical space. We also think it's better for learning for them to have clinical experiences earlier because it allows them to think more about the science behind the medicine. It also gives them a human framework in which to place that knowledge. Then they ask better questions because they say, "Oh, well, I saw Mr. Jones and he has this condition. Let me try and understand the pathophysiology of his disease, or let me understand how his medications work." They have a clinical framework in which to put that knowledge. I think that's one of the biggest changes.
The other change is that in that clinical year,
Imagine a world where there’s no LSAT [Show Summary]
With talk of testing becoming an optional step when applying to law school, LSAT expert Steve Schwartz, discusses how test optionality would change admissions. What would it mean for applicants? Should applicants still plan to take the test?
Interview with Steve Schwartz, Founder and CEO of LSAT Unplugged [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 477th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we meet our guest, I'd like to highlight the featured resource for today's show. It is Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz. Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment of your chances but actionable tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free.
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Our guest today is Steve Schwartz of the LSAT Blog and the LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channel, which we're going to link to from the show notes at accepted.com/477. Steve graduated from Columbia University in 2008. In high school and college, he tutored students in a variety of subjects and also helped prep test takers for standardized tests, including the LSAT. However, he really began to focus on the LSAT when he was applying to law school. He founded the LSAT Blog in 2008 and never looked back. Today, 14 years later, he has helped thousands master the LSAT, get into law school, and sometimes secure scholarships worth tens of thousands of dollars.
Linda: Today, we're discussing a possible LSAT-optional world. Can you give us context for something that a few years ago neither of us would've imagined possible? [2:25]
Steve: It is quite a surprise. The general trend has been for more and more of higher education to go test-optional. We've seen this in a number of undergraduate institutions, but at the graduate level, they seem to rely quite a bit more on standardized tests. Overall, I think some of this comes from the fact that there's a lot of grade inflation in colleges and universities. If everyone has a high GPA, then how are schools going to distinguish between different applicants? I think that's part of the reason for the change.
Linda: I certainly agree with you. I think that the focus on the test score increased because the GPA was a less valuable signal.
Steve: That's why they say that they might need exams like the LSAT for admissions purposes, but at the same time, there are concerns around the equity involved in members of different groups having different test scores and concerns over access. These two issues - on the one hand, grade inflation and on the other hand, issues of access - are seemingly at odds with each other. That poses a problem and a debate that all of higher ed is trying to untangle.
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Linda: We’ve also seen really different trends. The undergrad world has really embraced test-optionality. A few weeks ago, MIT, which embraced test-optionality as a whole, suddenly announced the undergraduate school will be requiring a test once again because they felt it actually enhanced access and equity. Obviously, nobody in undergraduate or graduate levels wants to admit people who aren't going to succeed.
At this point in time, what do you think LSAC is going to do? What actually is the issue? Is it schools making a choice? Is it LSAC imposing a policy? [5:05]
Steve: That's a fantastic question. Just to backpedal a little bit, you mentioned COVID and how schools were going test-optional. Because of the American Bar Association's requirement that law schools use a valid and reliable admission test like the LSAT, law schools could not do that in March 2020 when the pandemic hit North America.
Discover the unique Temple Katz SOM program [Show Summary]
The Temple Katz School of Medicine distinguishes itself with two campuses, a Narrative Medicine Program, and deep ties to the local community. In this interview, Jacob Ufberg, Associate Dean of Admissions, shares everything applicants need to know to get accepted to Temple Katz.
Interview with Temple Katz School of Medicine Admissions Dean, Dr. Jacob W. Ufberg [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 476th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in.
The medical school application process is complex. Think of it like a structure that you're building with many elements and floors. Like any building, it requires a strong foundation. Accepted’s free four-part video course, which takes less than half an hour to complete, lays out the foundation of an outstanding medical school application. Watch it today at medschoolessentials.com.
Our special guest today is Dr. Jacob Ufberg, Associate Dean for Admissions at Temple University’s Lewis Katz School of Medicine and Director of the Emergency Medicine Residency Program. He completed his bachelor's degree at the University of Pennsylvania, then he earned his MD at the Lewis Katz School of Medicine and did his residency in Emergency Medicine at The Medical College of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. He returned to Temple University's Katz School of Medicine after completing his residency and has since become Associate Dean of Admissions, Interim Assistant Dean of Career Advising, a Professor of Emergency Medicine, and an Emergency Medicine Residency Program Director. I'd say he's a little bit busy.
Can you give us an overview of Temple Katz's approach to medical education, focusing on its more distinctive aspects? [1:58]
At Temple, we teach our clinical medicine and basic science interwoven together with our clinical faculty and basic science faculty integrated together into our pre-clerkship curriculum over the first year and three quarters. That can provide some clinical perspective for the basic science that the students are learning. We do a good deal of small group and case-based learning, and we have a strong focus on integrating the learning of safety, quality, social and structural determinants of health, disparities in health, and medical ethics. We have a wonderful simulation center here. We use simulation and standardized patients quite a bit in the pre-clerkship years for clinical correlation. We have a curriculum that allows for a lot of early and frequent clinical experience. We have two campuses, one here in North Philadelphia and one in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania at the St. Luke's University Health System. They both provide really wonderful clinical learning opportunities for the students. One of the great things is that the students have an opportunity to cross over from one campus to the other for some of their clinical learning opportunities over the years.
Is there a different focus between the two different campuses? [3:37]
I wouldn't say that there's a different focus. We are very well-aligned in how we teach, what we teach, and the experiences that the students have. There is a size difference. The campus here in North Philadelphia has 180 students per year and there are 40 students per year at the St. Luke's campus. Each offers unique benefits. The students up here love the urban setting. The students down on the St. Luke's campus love living at a slightly more relaxed space. They have a smaller learning group that provides the opportunity to really mesh together, grow together over the years.
Can you describe the Narrative Medicine Program? Is that for all students or is it an elective? [5:36]
Any student has an opportunity to participate in the Narrative Medicine Program. Narrative medicine is kind of a newer thing, and it really lives at the intersection of science and medicine and the humanities. It's about storytelling. It's listening to patients and their families,
How can an international student pay for grad school in the U.S. or Canadian graduate education? [Show Summary]
MPOWER Financing has changed the graduate education financing industry by offering international students loans with no collateral or co-signer requirement. Sasha Ramani, the Associate Director of Corporate Strategy explains how they do this responsibly and shares his own journey through graduate school, which led him to this role.
Interview with Sasha Ramani, Associate Director of Corporate Strategy, MPOWER Financing [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 476th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are any of you, whether in the United States or outside of the United States, aiming for the MBA Trinity of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton? Well, you're in luck. Next week I'm going to present What It Takes to Get Accepted to Harvard, Stanford and Wharton on Thursday, June 23rd. The webinar is free, but you do need to register to reserve your spot at accepted.com/hsw.
I'd like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk Sasha Ramani. Sasha grew up in Canada and graduated with distinction from the University of Waterloo where he quadruple majored in Actuarial Science, Statistics, Operations Research, and Business Administration, while also being active on campus. After graduating, he worked for Mars & Co and Deloitte as a Strategy Consultant before moving on to the Harvard Kennedy School, where he completed his MPP in Business and Government. Since 2017, he has worked with MPOWER Financing, a fast-growing FinTech company, providing millions to promising international and DACA students without collateral or co-signers.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background? [2:05]
Sure, absolutely. I'm from a city called Mississauga. It's a suburb of Toronto in Canada. That's where I was born and raised. I spent my entire childhood there until the end of college. Then I moved to New York City and worked as a management consultant for two different consultancies, Mars & Co and Deloitte Consulting. I specialized in investment management. That’s the traditional consulting work of helping firms grow and expand, advising on mergers and acquisitions, cost-cutting, or other ways they can expand their product or geographic services.
After that, I moved on to the Harvard Kennedy School where I got a Master's in Public Policy. That's when I came across MPOWER almost by accident. I came across the firm at a startup career fair, not even looking for jobs, but just looking for interesting startups and getting a flavor for what people were doing.
It just sort of crossed my mind that if for me, as a Canadian in the U.S., which makes me the least international of all students, to get a bank account, a credit card, or other bread and butter financial product was kind of like pulling teeth – imagine what it's like for a student from India, China, Mexico, Brazil, or any of the other 200 plus countries thatMPOWER serves. So I did my graduate school internship with MPOWER in 2017. I loved the experience. When I completed my master's in 2018, I joined full-time and I've had the pleasure of being the Head of Corporate Strategy ever since then.
How did you go from the very focused to the big picture? [4:07]
My undergraduate was a double undergrad between a Bachelor's in Mathematics from the University of Waterloo, and a BBA, Bachelor's of Business Administration, from next-door Wilfrid Laurier University. It’s a short walk between these schools, about 15 minutes. They’ve collaborated to have this cross-disciplinary double undergraduate program together. It's actually considered one of Canada's leading undergraduate programs for students interested in those fields. It's also a co-op program, which means students take work terms that are interplaced between study terms.
I realized that what I liked most about my experience doing co-op jobs as an actuary was the part that made me feel like a management consult...
An inside look at the NYMC MD program and how to get accepted [Show Summary]
New York Medical College’s MD program offers students robust clinical experiences and ongoing academic and career mentoring. Dr. Karen Murray, Associate Dean of Admissions, gives an inside scoop on how students can get accepted to this competitive program.
Interview with Dr. Karen Murray, Associate Dean of Admissions for the SOM at NYMC [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 474th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Calculating your GPA for med school can be difficult, especially if you are applying via AMCAS, AACOMAS and/or TMDSAS. However, Accepted has a free tool that can really help you. Using our brand new and free GPA calculator, just enter your classes and credits to calculate your GPA. If you are a couple of years away from applying, you can download the GPA calculator spreadsheet and assess the impact of your grades as you earn them. Or you can calculate the impact of different anticipated grades and see what your GPA will be if you ace that course, or if you take a hit. Just download the spreadsheet template at accepted.com/medgpa, and you can use and update it as needed. Plus it’s free.
Try the Premed GPA Calculator
Our guest today is Dr. Karen Murray, Associate Dean of Admissions for the School of Medicine at New York Medical College. Dr. Murray graduated from Cornell University with a Bachelor's in Biology and Biological Sciences. She immediately started medical school at NYMC and graduated in 1991. She then did her residency in OB/GYN also at NYMC and has been an attending physician and Associate Professor at NYMC since 2003. She became the Associate Dean for Admissions for the School of Medicine at NYMC in 2018.
Can you give us an overview of NYMC's approach to medical education focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:23]
New York Medical College has recently undergone a revamping of its curriculum. This was geared toward the changes that are happening with the USMLE. Unlike the traditional medical school where you had two years of full, straight lecture courses followed by two years of clinical, we are actually starting our clinicals early.
They start out during the first year with the fundamentals, which go from August to March. Then, starting in March of your first year, you start your systems. Your systems-based learning goes from April of your first year and continues through to February of your second year. Usually somewhere between the end of February and March, you take the Step 1, and immediately after that, you start your clinicals. Your clinicals start in April of your second year and run through into your fourth year and graduation. We've put a little bit more clinical in there and start the clinical a little earlier.
A lot of students go to medical school because they really want to put that white coat on and get out and start seeing patients. You do see some of that in your first year during your fundamentals. You may have a preceptor you meet with once a week. Then your core clinical rotations start at the end of your second year like prior to getting into the third year.
So students have a little bit more than two years of clinical rotations? [3:54]
Absolutely. Yes.
Is there anything that you would like listeners to know about New York Medical College or perhaps a myth that you would like to dispel? [4:10]
New York Medical College follows a holistic review of the application and the applicant. This is something that comes from AMCAS where we use the E-A-M model which stands for Experience-Attributes-Metrics and each is weighted equally. Your experience comes from whatever kind of medical research clinical experience you may have that you put in your application. Your metrics are pretty obvious. That would be your MCAT or your GPA. Your attributes come from your personal statement, the MMI interview, and any letters of recommendation that you have.
How to Write a Statement of Purpose That Gets You Accepted [Show Summary]
Vanessa Febo is a PhD candidate in English Literature at UCLA and a writing instructor who has guided students to acceptance at top programs at Harvard, Stanford, and USC. In this episode, she shares her expert tips on mastering the writing required for a successful statement of purpose.
Interview with Vanessa Febo, a PhD candidate in English Literature at UCLA and Accepted Admissions Consultant [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 473rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance. You can download this free guide at accepted.com/fiso.
Our guest today, Vanessa Febo, is a PhD candidate in English Literature at UCLA. She graduated from the University of Michigan with a Bachelor's in English, and then worked in business for several years. While pursuing her PhD at UCLA, she has taught writing to undergraduate students and assisted graduate students in getting major grants and scholarships, including the Fulbright, Stanford Knight-Hennessy, and the Ford Foundation Fellowship. She has also guided students to acceptance at top programs at Harvard, Stanford, USC, and others, while an Accepted consultant.
How did you get involved in coaching applicants in the writing required for admissions as well as grant and scholarship applications? [2:08]
I was an English major, and I knew that I wanted to pursue a PhD. I wasn't sure what that entailed at the time. I don't think anyone necessarily does when they’re going into a PhD program, but I discovered a lot of it was teaching. I really loved teaching and a big part of teaching and the English curriculum is obviously working with students on their writing, which we’re not necessarily fully trained in. So I got additional certification in writing pedagogy as well. Then I managed to get a job at the Scholarship Resource Center at UCLA, which is a very unique center because it's one of the only of its kind in the country. It's really surprising to me that more universities, especially private ones that have so much money, don’t have centers like this. We're one of the very few that actually help students work on applications for scholarships. Through that, I have the opportunity to work with students on what we might call national merit or nationally recognized international scholarships as well because that is operated through that office. I got to work with Dr. Rebecca Blustein, who spearheads this at UCLA. I've been involved on selection committees for scholarships through this office for in-house scholarships and for things like Phi Beta Kappa, the National Honor Society. I was recently on their selection committee for that, but it just finished. I've also worked with students with both interviewing and essay writing for all sorts of scholarships, large and small. So that's what got me started. Then I branched out more into statements of purpose.
What's the first step applicants should take when they're thinking about writing a statement of purpose essay? [4:39]
I'm going to give an answer that's going to sound really simplistic, but I'll explain why it's actually really important. My answer is to always read the prompt. It's not always obvious that there is a prompt and usually there’s additional information on application webpages or on a school's page that feeds into the prompt. They might state what type of applicant they're looking for in a different section of the webpage from the actual prompt itself. I always consider this additional information as part of the prompt. Part of it is gathering all of that information together and seeing what they're actually askin...
All you need to know about med school admissions [Show Summary]
Madison Searle, a published writer, graduate application advisor, and former director of an undergraduate Honors Center at a leading Public Ivy, shares his tips and strategies for medical school applications that lead to acceptance.
Madison Searle, Accepted medical school consultant, talks about how to get accepted [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 472nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in.
Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you will not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it's all free.
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Our guest today, Madison Searle, is a published writer, graduate application advisor, and former director of an undergraduate Honors Center at a leading Public Ivy. He earned his Master's in English Lit from UVA and taught writing seminars for students in two honors programs at the College of Natural Sciences at UT Austin in addition to being the director of those programs. Almost all of the students in his seminars were applying to medical school or other healthcare professions. UT conservatively estimated acceptance rates for those programs at around 95%. Today, Madison is an Accepted consultant working with med school and healthcare applicants.
You were an English major and got your Master’s in Literature. How did you get involved in med school and science admissions? [2:13]
Good question. For the past decade, I've taught two writing seminars to two honors programs that were about 80% premed students. One of the first things I did in that first semester a decade ago was teach autobiographical writing because I knew that’s what they were going to be doing for medical school applications. I continued doing that through January of this year and I also worked with countless students on their own medical school application letter.
You worked with students individually through the program as well as providing the seminar? [2:47]
Correct. Yes.
How do you suggest applicants approach the writing portion of the primary application? [2:54]
My first bit of advice to any premed student, and I got them early enough in their trajectory that I could give this advice to them, was to keep a daily journal about their premed journey. It would be useful to them in three ways. First, it would help them to simply remember the experiences and thoughts they could draw on for their medical school applications. It would give them practice at writing about their own thoughts and experiences, and it would also help them gain clarity in figuring out and really being able to articulate their motivation for going to medical school.
READ: AMCAS Work and Activities Section: What to Include (With Examples) >>
As far as the personal statement itself goes, there are few absolutes in writing and teaching students how to prepare for an essay. But I think that's one of them. You should not just dive into the personal statement. I was working with someone last week who was frustrated with herself because her draft was not to her satisfaction. And she said, “It's such a simple question. This ought to be easy.” Of course, it's not a simple question. It's a very complex question, but I think a lot of students have the idea that the question, "Why do you want to go to medical school?" is obvious. It shouldn't be obvious and it takes most students a good bit of time to get the complex reasons down in a way that feels authentic and honors the significance of that decision they've made to apply to medical school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAoOVHmeo1w
How many times did you have a student say they want to go to medical sc...
Football, Air Force Academy, and business; hear how they come together in this Stanford MBA's journey [Show Summary]
Captain David Harris has been a leader since childhood. Growing up and in college, he played football. After graduating from the U.S. Air Force Academy, he served as an officer in the U.S. Space Force, and now he’s preparing for an MBA at Stanford GSB. In this episode, he shares his story.
Interview with David Harris, US Air Force veteran, Stanford GSB MBA candidate [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 471st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. You've seen the stats that most people have a great return on their MBA investment, but what about you? Are you going to see that return? We've created a tool that will help you assess whether the MBA is likely to be a good investment for you individually. Go to accepted.com/mbaroicalc, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but also the opportunity to calculate different scenarios. And it's all free.
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I'd like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk, Captain David Harris of the U.S. Space Force. I first met David when he won a free consultation after attending an Accepted webinar. I was very impressed with him and here's why: In addition to being a delightful person to speak with, David graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 2017. While there, he was a football team captain for the Academy's Division I team. Upon graduating, he worked first as a Nuclear Cruise Missile Manufacturing and Production Program Manager for the U.S. Air Force and is currently serving in the United States Space Force's National Reconnaissance Office. Parallel to his service in the military, David has pursued internships in private equity and venture capital, participated in Management Leadership for Tomorrow's Professional Development Fellows’ program, and co-founded his own investment management company, Ikon Capital Group.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background? [2:38]
No problem. I'm David Harris. Originally from Dallas, Texas so a Cowboys fan by law. I was actually born during a Cowboys game and that kind of laid the framework for my early pursuits. I played football growing up and that ultimately opened the door for football scholarships at the Air Force Academy, which I chose for the leadership and academic challenge. I majored in management and played football, as you mentioned, and then graduated. That's where I caught the bug for finance. I was really interested once I got into my major, specifically the finance course to dive a little deeper into private equity. So I got an internship at Pharos Capital down in Dallas before I went into active duty at the Nuclear Cruise Missile Program Office, where I was working for three years. It was a great opportunity to lead with decent size team of up to 30. I got the real challenge when I went to the National Reconnaissance Office leading a team of about 125 and managing $250 million worth of software development satellites. It was definitely an amazing experience. I tell people all the time I had the luckiest military career of all time. Then from there, I was able to do a venture capital internship before I head to GSB where I'll be looking to go into private equity post-MBA. And a quick update, I'm headed to Blackstone at the beginning of June for a pre-MBA internship.
So you have three parallel paths: football, Air Force Academy, and business. What do you like to do for fun? [4:19]
I'll give you two things. One, I really love volunteering with the Riordan Programs from UCLA. I’ve really enjoyed helping out the youth in southern California. That's been a big passion of mine for the past four years. I'm actually flying out next week to go to the Riordan Gala where we'll be presenting a few awards.
Outside of that, really, I really enjoy cooking.
Discover HEC Paris' top-ranked MBA Program [Show Summary]
HEC Paris’ top-ranked MBA Program is known for its entrepreneurial spirit, the strong representation of many cultures, and the rich alumni network that feels like family. Benoit Banchereau, MBA Admissions Director, explores what sets this program apart and how potential students can secure a spot.
Benoit Banchereau, Executive Director, Marketing and Admissions at HEC Paris MBA programs shares what the program is looking for in applicants [Show Notes]
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Benoit Banchereau. Benoit is the Executive Director of Marketing and Admissions at HEC Paris MBA programs. He earned two masters degrees from the Sorbonne in Paris, one in Bilingual Journalism and the other in Media and Communication. He also participated in INSEAD’s International Marketing Program. He has worked in communications and marketing for companies like A.T. Kearney, Standard & Poor's, and Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer before joining HEC Paris in 2015 as Director of Marketing and Admissions. In 2019, he became the Executive Director of Marketing and Admissions for all of HEC Paris' MBA programs.
Can you start by giving us an overview of HEC's three MBA programs? [2:17]
We have a full-time MBA that takes place on the campus of Jouy-en-Josas. It's a 16-month program that students complete on-site. The Executive MBA program is between 15 and 18 months. It includes people who are generally above 35, and it's a part-time MBA. We have five flexible options. We have some modular intakes, weekend intakes, a bilingual intake in French and English, and an intake in Qatar where we have an office.
Our program is very highly ranked in the Financial Times, it has the number one place. For the moment so far so good, but you can never stay too long in first place. Our TRIUM Executive MBA is a partnership with NYU and LSE, London School of Economics. It's a very special international offer that gives students the opportunity to belong to the three alumni communities from HEC, NYU, and LSE.
Is the TRIUM Executive MBA a full-time program or a part-time program? [4:32]
It's a part-time program with exactly the same target. In terms of population, it's more expensive than our Executive MBA at HEC. It really gives a special offer. It's usually between 50 and 60 participants so it's a very small cohort with people trying to get an international perspective. The alliance between HEC, NYU, and LSE is so valuable, especially at this time when we see that international relations are so important. It gives a very interesting approach, especially with our friends from LSE who can actually bring this to students.
Can you zoom in on the full-time MBA program's more notable and distinctive elements? [6:05]
What you're going to get from the full-time MBA is the quality of the courses that we provide with top professors. The way that it's structured is we have a fundamental phase that lasts eight months. Then it's followed by a customized phase that lasts another eight months. It could be an international exchange, it could be a specialization, it could be actually many things. It's really a la carte, which is very appreciated by participants because they can really design their own way of doing the MBA.
The fundamental phase is compulsory for everyone. You can't actually choose corporate finance or not, marketing or not, operations or not. What we are trying to introduce during the MBA is learning by doing. We are really careful about that because you can attend a lot of conferences and speeches about leadership and you will probably enjoy it very much. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that you will be able to do it. I mean, you have been inspired, but are you able really to demonstrate on the ground that you can apply it? What have you learned? This is really what it's about.
Interested in a spot in Tulane SOM? Hear all about what the program has to offer [Show Summary]
Set in vibrant New Orleans, the Tulane School of Medicine offers students an outstanding medical education with opportunities for community involvement and research. Mike Woodson, Director of Admissions, explains what it takes to get accepted to this competitive program.
Mike Woodson, Director Of Admissions at Tulane University School of Medicine talks about how to get accepted [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 469th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for tuning in. Calculating your GPA for medical school can be difficult. You’ve got the science GPA, the overall GPA, and it's particularly difficult if you're applying via AMCAS, AACOMAS and/or TMDSAS. However, Accepted has you covered. Our free tool can really help you. It's brand new and it's a free GPA calculator. You can download the template to your computer or laptop and use it as you wish. You simply enter your classes and credits to calculate your GPA and sign GPA. If you're a couple of years away from applying, you can download the GPA calculator spreadsheet, enter your classes and assess the impact of your grades as you earn them, or you can calculate the impact of different anticipated grades. Just download the spreadsheet template at accepted.com/medgpa and you can use and update it as needed. Plus it's all free.
Our guest today is Mike Woodson, Director of Admissions at Tulane University School of Medicine. Mike earned his BA at Elon University and an MS in Sports Management from Virginia Commonwealth. He's very close to earning his PhD in Higher Education Administration from Liberty University. After working for several years in high school athletics, Mike moved into the admissions world at Randolph-Macon College. He then was Assistant Director of Admissions at the University of Houston and came to Tulane Medical in 2017 as Assistant Director of Admissions. In 2019, he became the Director of Admissions.
Can you give us an overview of Tulane Medical's approach to med ed, focusing on the more distinctive elements? [2:26]
Every medical school has its own features, characteristics, mission, values, etc. Tulane University School of Medicine really focuses on whole body preventative medicine. We're in the heart of New Orleans and we focus on serving the underserved population. Our school has 20+ student-run clinics. We have a culinary medicine center that helps our students learn and also has ties with the community. We conduct research that also helps the population here in New Orleans. Our tagline is, “We heal communities, we heal people” and all of that fits strongly into our mission.
What would you like listeners to know about Tulane Medical that many applicants don't realize? Are there any myths that you would like to dispel? [3:28]
If you're known for one thing, people just assume that you don't do the other thing. We are known for our community service and our student-run clinics so people just assume we don’t have any research opportunities. That's far from the truth. As I said earlier, we do have a lot of research that really focuses on the populations we serve here. We have an aging center, a cancer center, and also the Louisiana Cancer Centers right across the street from us. Our students really get opportunities in both those areas. We do have a primate center where we have a lot of primary research going on there. Our latest thing that we just got a huge grant for is developing a whooping cough vaccine.
How does New Orleans impact the student experience at Tulane Medical? [5:18]
It's interesting because if anyone has been to New Orleans, they’ll know it is a very culturally diverse city. It's very laid-back. The culture of the city actually seeps into our medical school. We don't take ourselves too seriously here. During Mardi Gras festivals, you'll see faculty members and students having fun together.
So you want to attend UVA Law? Here's what you need to know [Show Summary]
Are you interested in a top law school located in a beautiful city at a historic university? UVA Law, founded in 1819 by Thomas Jefferson, may be just the one for you, but it has only a 9.7% acceptance rate. Our guest today, Assistant Admissions Dean Natalie Blazer, will tell you what the admissions committee at UVA Law is looking for.
Interview with Natalie Blazer, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Chief Admissions Officer, U. of Virginia School of Law [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for this, the 468th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying for law school? Are you planning ahead to apply next cycle or the year later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you will not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Natalie R. Blazer. Dean Blazer is not only the Assistant Dean for Admissions and the Chief Admissions Officer at UVA Law, she's also an alumna. She earned her bachelor's at Boston College and then attended UVA Law. Following law school, she clerked at The Hague, worked in a Manhattan law firm for six years, and then worked in law school admissions at Columbia Law and Georgetown Law before returning to UVA as Assistant Dean for Admissions.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of the UVA Law School JD program? [2:04]
Most people probably know UVA Law is a top 10 law school. It's actually the number one public law school in the country. It's something that we are very proud of. I think you can get a great law school education at any top law school, but what sets UVA apart from most is the experience that you have here. We are consistently ranked number one for quality of life, classroom experience, and faculty. I think all of that goes to our community and our culture.
Law school has a reputation of being extremely cutthroat and competitive, especially when you get to the higher level of law schools, but that’s not the case at UVA. When I think about what truly sets us apart, it is that experience that you have here. It's the colleagues that you have, the supportive nature of the community, the faculty accessibility and outreach that you have, and the supportive administration.
Seeing it from the administrative side versus the student side, I do see how much hard work and effort goes into making sure students have an amazing experience here. Obviously, our career outcomes, the actual academics, all of that goes without saying. When I think about what really distinguishes UVA from some of our peer schools, it is the atmosphere here. It’s that community culture.
The 2020-2021 application cycle saw an unbelievable surge in law school applications. On March 28th of this year, the overall applicant volume was down roughly 11.5% from the last year, but up 6.6% from two years ago. What is UVA experiencing in terms of application volume? [4:10]
Pretty much exactly what you just said. I know that our peer schools are in the same boat. Usually, national application trends are exactly what we're experiencing at UVA. If you were to just take out the 2020-2021 cycle, we would be on a steady uptick, applications going up, up, up for the last several years. The last cycle was certainly an outlier. While technically, yes, applications are down this year, really they're up in terms of what we can come to expect. We're still up, as you said, depending on the day, somewhere between 5% and 8% over two years ago.
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UVA accepts the LSAT, the GRE, and the GMAT, but requires applicants to submit all scores for the GRE and GMAT. Do you have any preference for one test over the...
What international applicants to U.S. business schools need to know [Show Summary]
Michelle Stockman has a Master’s in Journalism, 15 years of experience as an Accepted admissions consultant, and has lived all around the world. Bridging all of these experiences, Michelle gives her tips for international students applying to U.S. MBA programs.
Interview with Michelle Stockman, Accepted MBA admissions consultant [Show Notes]
Hello, and welcome to the 467th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today and whenever you can tune in. The featured resource for today's show is Accepted's MBA Admissions Quiz. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA program? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted's MBA Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mba-quiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to introduce Michelle Stockman. Michelle earned her Master's in Journalism from Columbia University. While studying there, she worked in Columbia Business School's admissions office and got a real insider perspective on the MBA admissions process. She reached out to me way back in 2007 and has been an MBA admissions consultant ever since.
She also pursued her career in journalism and has lived in different parts of the U.S. as well as different parts of the globe. For the last six years, she has lived in Berlin, Germany, and assisted many of our European, Asian, and Middle Eastern clients, and even a few located in the U.S., to gain admission to U.S. and European MBA programs, and occasionally, journalism school.
Before we get to MBA admissions, can you please tell us a few of the places that you have lived? [2:18]
Absolutely. I grew up in Rochester, New York, which is near Niagara Falls. As an adult, I moved to New York City, where I lived for about five years, and I loved it. I was a journalist there. I went to journalism school there. I worked in the Columbia Business School admissions office and felt like I was entering a movie every day, helping people achieve their dreams as well as pursuing my dream. Then I moved to Washington D.C. and got to experience living in the city that's the seat of government and watching U.S. politics up close.
Then I moved to Islamabad, Pakistan, where I also worked as a journalist and admissions consultant. It’s a beautiful city. It's right in the foothills of the Himalayas. I had a wonderful time there, and that's where I started my family. After that, I lived in Qatar for a little while. Family had brought me there, and I worked from there as well. That was a really interesting experience. I found it to be incredibly diverse. I met people from all over the world who had come to work there, and did a lot of hanging out in mall food courts so we could have some yummy meals while staying out of the heat, and just made some wonderful friendships. Then I moved from there to Berlin, Germany, and I love it here. We've lived here for six years, and it's just been an incredible, wonderful, international experience.
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What do you see as the main challenges faced by international applicants to U.S. MBA programs? [4:15]
The easy answer is that it's hard to get to know the schools that they are applying to because of distance, because of perhaps the inability to travel and visit campuses. We also have COVID, which absolutely made that impossible even for domestic candidates. I'm going to go a little deeper than that because there are a lot of resources that schools give you to get to know their programs. The reason why they want you to get to know their programs is so that you can make the most of your time when you're there. They also want to make sure that you are a good match and that you can actually pursue and achieve your goa...
Thanks for joining me for the 466th episode of Admissions Straight Talk.
I am taking a week off for family time this week. As a result, I decided to air an encore of our most popular premed podcast so far in 2022. It is my interview with Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz, UWSOM Associate Dean for Admissions.
Given that the 2022-23 med school application cycle is moving into high gear I thought it was a great time to highlight this interview with the admission dean at the program that is ranked #1 by US News for primary care and a not-too-shabby #9 for research. I assume that many of you are also taking a spring break right now be it for a day or two or a whole week or more. I hope you can spend it with loved ones. Have a wonderful time and thanks for listening to the encore of University of Washington School of Medicine: An Interview with Admissions Dean, Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related links:
University of Washington School of Medicine’s WebsiteAdmissions Interview | UW MedicineUniversity of Washington School of Medicine Secondary Application Tips and Deadlines [2021 – 2022]The Medical School Admissions CalculatorGet Accepted to Top MBA Programs with Low Stats, a webinarAccepted’s Medical School Admissions Consulting
Related shows:
All You Want to Know About Georgetown Medical School’s AdmissionsDeep Dive into Penn Perelman School of Medicine: An Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean for AdmissionsDeep Dive Into Duke Medical: An Interview With Dr. Linton Yee, Associate Dean of AdmissionsAre You Rushing to Attend Rush Medical College?How to Get Accepted to Chicago Medical School at Rosalind FranklinHow to Get into Kaiser Permanente Medical School – Warning It’s Tough!How To Get Accepted to University of Illinois College of MedicineGet into University of Washington Medical School [a previous interview with Dr. Muzquiz]
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Wondering if Dental School is for you? [Show Summary]
Dr. Barry Rothman shares everything students should know about the dental school application process drawing on his knowledge as an Accepted Admissions Consultant and former Health Professions Advisor and Director of SFSU’s Pre-Health Profession Certificate Program.
Interview with Barry Rothman, Dental School admissions expert [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 464th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools, and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted's free download Fitting in and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance. You can download this free guide and accepted.com/fiso.
Our guest today, Dr. Barry Rothman, is the former Health Professions Advisor and Director of San Francisco State University's Pre-Health Profession Certificate Program, which served pre-med, pre-dental, pre-nursing, and other pre-healthcare students who are preparing themselves to apply to their graduate professional schools of choice. Since 2015, Dr. Rothman has helped Accepted's clients in all aspects of the application process to graduate healthcare programs and graduate schools and life sciences, including of course dental school, which is the subject of today's podcast.
How did you get involved in dental school admissions? [2:17]
I think around 1995, I was asked by my university to be the Health Professions Advisor. This was something I had never even thought about. I had been teaching in the Biology Department for nine years at that point. I taught Molecular Medicine and I was interested in Physiology. I had a number of pre-meds and pre-dents in my classes, and I was kind of interested so I figured I'd give it a try.
What I discovered was that there was a huge need at my university, and probably in many universities, to have a Health Professions Advisor who could relate to the students and really give them service. I decided to take it on, and I fell in love with it. I fell in love with being the Health Professions Advisor for all sorts of health professions, including dentistry. Also, I had had some contact with the UCSF Dental Post Bac Program, which was doing well at UCSF, and because I was the Health Professions Advisor at SF State, and UCSF is two miles down the road, we put our forces together and I joined them.
I got to learn how they ran their post-bacc program. Then I took my own ideas about having programs that were extremely supportive of students, and had lots of mutual support, and not competitive, a nurturing environment, and decided after a year or two delay to create my own post-bacc program at San Francisco State, starting with a sort of multipurpose pre-health program mainly for pre-meds and some pre-dents. The students at SF State actually asked me to create this program.
At that time, pre-meds were allowed to be Second Baccalaureates in the whole CSU system, but they weren't given much in the way of service. It was more like, "Okay, you can take classes, but don't expect anything." They were willing to pay more money for a post-bacc program in order to get more service. Over a period of a year, the Dean, the Academic Senate, and I put our heads together and created the program.
It was a win/win situation. It made me happy. I continued running the post-bacc program, and actually expanded it into dental and into nursing over the next nine years.
What are the prerequisites for applying to dental school? [5:24]
They're very much like the medical school prerequisites, with some exceptions. You need a year of Intro to Bio with Lecture and Lab, a year of General Chemistry with Lecture and Lab, a year of Organic Chemistry with Lecture and Lab, and a year of Physics with Lecture and Lab.
Unlike medical school,
Discover what opportunities the Wharton Lauder MBA program offers [Show Summary]
Kara Keenan Sweeney, Director of Admissions Marketing and Financial Aid at the Lauder Institute at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and Penn Law School shares how the program continues to offer global opportunities during a COVID influenced world.
[Show Notes]
Welcome to the 465th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today and whenever you’re able to tune in. The featured resource for today's show is Fitting in and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions. Your application needs to show that you're going to do both, and that's the difficult paradox at the heart of admissions. Master that paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance. Download the free guide.
It gives me great pleasure to introduce Kara Keenan Sweeney, Director of Admissions Marketing and Financial Aid at the Lauder Institute at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and Penn Law School. Kara has an extensive background in graduate admissions, starting with her master's in higher administration at Columbia, and then moving onto admissions positions at INSEAD, the University of Pennsylvania, Penn State, and now the Lauder Institute.
Can you give us an overview of the Wharton Lauder program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it? [1:45]
The Lauder program was founded in the mid-1980s by the Lauder family to work with Wharton to help educate and generate a new, globally-minded group of business leaders. When students come to the Lauder Institute, they're earning a Master of Arts in International Studies at the same time, they're getting their MBA from Wharton. Basically, it's an MA/MBA joint degree fully integrated into the MBA program.
When students come to Lauder, they focus on one of our six programs of concentration. Five of those programs are regionally focused. We have a program on Africa, East and Southeast Asia, Europe, Latin America, and then what we call the SAMENA region or South Asia, the Middle East and North Africa. That's our fifth regional program. We also have a global program for our students who have already had fairly significant global experience.
In our regional program students are almost in every case also focused on a language. We have 10 languages of instruction at Lauder. When they come to Lauder they're already speaking a language at an advanced level, and then they'll continue to work on that language until they get to the superior or the fluent level over the two years as part of their studies at Lauder. It’s a fully integrated joint degree. We have a small program with about 70 to 80 students a year. It’s a really international community and just an amazing group to be a part of.
Are you also a joint program with the law school? [3:22]
That's right. Thanks for highlighting that. We do have a joint agreement with the law school as well. Each year we have a handful of students that do it. It's not really by design; it's a little bit by default. The law school has just less than 200 students a year over at Penn Law. Wharton is up to about 900. There are just a lot more MBA students.
The Wharton program was founded to really work and fit in specifically with the Wharton school way back when it was founded. Our law school partnership is a little bit more recent, but in the class that's starting this summer, we actually have three incoming JD students. We're really happy to have them in the program. We love to have them, but we just tend to have fewer of them.
Does the Lauder Institute only work with applicants interested in dual degrees? [4:13]
Exactly. Lauder only offers a joint degree. Students take about two classes a semester at Lauder. They take their normal Wharton course load or their normal course load over at Penn Law. At Lauder, we borrow the credits from the other degree so that they can graduate with both because some of the L...
A peek into what change the Forte Foundation is implementing [Show Summary]
In honor of Admissions Straight Talk’s 10th anniversary episode, our first ever guest is back. Elissa Sangster is the CEO of the Forte Foundation which is at the forefront of increasing female representation in the business world - from the classroom to the workforce.
Interview with Elissa Sangster, CEO of the Forte Foundation [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 463rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. I love hosting Admissions Straight Talk because of the fascinating guests I'm privileged to talk to. But today's show is extra special. It marks Admissions Straight Talk’s 10th anniversary. The first show aired on March 29th, 2012, almost exactly 10 years ago.
So, first I have to thank you, our listeners for tuning in and sharing your valuable time and attention with me and our guests. I also have to thank the guests who share their time, experience, and expertise with you and me during the interview.
And one of the people I have to give extra thanks to today is our guest Elissa Sangster. Elissa was willing to be Admissions Straight Talk's first guest when there was no track record, no stats to report, no download numbers. Today, I can talk to prospective guests about our 650,000 total downloads, but I couldn't 10 years ago when Elissa first said yes. So thank you again, Elissa. That's why this show is special to me.
This show should be special to you because of Elissa's critical role as head of the Forte Foundation, which has made enormous strides in increasing women's representation in business school and business through her profound insider's knowledge of the business school and professional world. Elissa earned her MBA at Texas A&M's Mays Business School in 1994, and immediately became the Assistant Director of its MBA program. She moved to UT Austin in 1997, where she served in different roles, including the Assistant Dean and Director of McCombs’ MBA program. In 2004, she became the first Director of Forte Foundation, a consortium of business schools and companies working to increase the number of women in business leadership roles. She's been successfully running and growing Forte Foundation ever since.
Can you give a background on the Forte Foundation and its growth? [2:47]
Sure, absolutely. We started back in 2001 when there was a research study being done by Catalyst. A lot of business schools and companies were looking at women's advancement into business school and into business leadership positions and corporations and there was grave concern about what was holding women back. So the research came out with a study that we then built into a business plan for an organization. That's really where the launch of Forte began. That was in about 2001, and then in 2002, we held our first event which was a series of MBA forums. We had five of them in 2002 and really continued to grow. I came on board full-time in 2004 as the first full-time employee of the organization. As you said, that's kind of been the history, and here we are today in 2022. We're really excited to see where we go from here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12wKC2JrglE
Can you give an overview of the programs for women in college considering a business career at this point in time? [3:51]
College has been a relatively newer part of our programming and by newer, I would say the last eight or so years. We've been developing relationships with college women and college campuses, knowing that it’s important to be really thinking about how to prepare for a business career and business school early on. You really need to have those critical conversations in college because college women are thinking about their futures yet many of them are not business majors. We offer programming around that. We have a conference coming up next week, College to Business Leadership. We also have a program right before that called Candid Conversations t...
What is the U. of Iowa's PA program all about [Show Summary]
The role of Physician Assistant was introduced less than 60 years ago and the University of Iowa’s Physician Assistant Program has been at the forefront since day one. Tony Brenneman, the Program Director shares what the program offers and how applicants can gain an invitation to the 25-student cohort.
Interview with Anthony Brenneman, Program Director at University of Iowa's Physician Assistant Program [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 462nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. This interview is all about getting accepted to PA school, specifically the University of Iowa's PA program, which began a half-century ago in 1972. In addition to listening to today's interview, I'd like to invite you to download Accepted's free guide, 10 Tips For Acceptance to a Physician Assistant Program. Grab your free copy for advice on selecting the best PA program for you, writing your personal statement, interviewing effectively, and simply presenting the best application you possibly can. It's a competitive field out there, so you need to do the best you can.
Today's guest, Tony Brenneman, grew up in Oregon where he also earned his Bachelor's in Psychology and Piano Performance from Linfield College and an MSW from Portland State University. He worked as a social worker until he learned about the PA profession and joined the University of Iowa's PA program graduating with his Master's of Physician Assistant Studies in 1996. He worked in Bone Marrow Transplant, and in 2004, joined the UIPA program and became the Program Director in 2012 and a professor at the University of Iowa’s Carver College of Medicine in 2014.
Before we dive into Iowa's PA program, can you talk a little bit about your own journey, from studying piano performance to social work in Oregon to then becoming a PA in Iowa? [2:19]
It does seem a bit convoluted, doesn't it? I think I had a journey that in some respects is very much like other people that have been thinking about joining the PA profession - they've started off in one career pathway or had bumps along the road, and thought, "Well, this isn't a field that I can get into anymore so I'm going to go off and try other things." I will say when I headed off to my undergraduate experience, I thought for sure I was going to go into medicine. As a 17-year-old, I was a young one going off into college, I wasn't quite ready to put my foot down to the pedal the way I needed to at that point in time. I'd always enjoyed playing the piano so I had enrolled with a biology and piano performance plan.
When I decided I needed to think about other things, I decided to switch it to piano performance and psychology thinking along the lines of music therapy. I still really wanted to be in that healthcare background so that's where that was going at the time. Once I graduated and learned more about music therapy, I decided it probably wasn't a field that fit who I was so I looked around to see what I could do with that psych degree, and a Master's of Social Work was one of the things that I could do. There were social workers that worked in hospital settings, so that was what really intrigued me.
After I graduated, I went on to a hospital there in Portland, Oregon. I started off working in the emergency room, working a 1:00 AM shift on the floor so I really got to see a lot of different experiences and different roles. After that, I worked at their rehabilitation center for several years before moving to Iowa in the neurology department. I did that because I was ready for a change of pace and thought, “Why not Iowa?” So I moved to Iowa, and through my wife, I learned about the PA profession. She’s not a PA, but her friend's husband went through the program just before I did. She introduced me to that idea because I told her about that desire to be in healthcare so I looked more into it and thought, "Yeah,
All you need to know about UW's Foster MBA program [Show Summary]
Amber Janke, Director of MBA Recruitment and Admissions at Foster School of Business shares everything potential applicants should know about the collaborative MBA program.
Amber Janke, Director of MBA Recruitment and Admissions at Foster School of Business talks about how to get accepted [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 461st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. You've seen the stats that most people have a great return on their MBA investment, but what about you individually? Are you going to see that return? How much is it likely to be? We created a tool that will help you assess whether the MBA is likely to be a good investment for you individually. Just go to www.accepted.com/mbaroicalc, complete the brief questionnaire, and you'll not only get an assessment but also the opportunity to calculate different scenarios.
It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Amber Janke. Amber earned her BA at Chapman University and then went to NYU, where she earned her MA in Higher Education Administration and Student Affairs. She also started her career in higher ed as the Assistant Director of Admissions at NYU. She moved to Foster as Associate Director of MBA Recruitment and Admissions in 2016, and became the Director of MBA Recruitment and Admissions for Foster School of Business in 2019.
Can you give a basic overview of the Full-time MBA Program at Foster for listeners who may not be that familiar with it? [2:24]
Absolutely. We have your classic two-year Full-time MBA Program here at the Foster School. The first year is very focused on a strong MBA foundation. It’s focused on leadership, teamwork, and we're very big on hands-on experiential learning here at Foster. You get that in the first-year curriculum. In the second year, our students get to choose the elective courses that best suit their career goals. We don't have specific concentrations or areas of studies that students are required to choose. Instead, they really get to customize their degree in a way that makes sense for their career goals.
Do students graduate with a concentration? [3:09]
They don't graduate with a concentration, they graduate with an MBA, but we really encourage them to share the things that they've learned and worked on, on their resumes.
Is the first year lockstep, where students are with the same cohort? [3:27]
Yes, we are a lockstep program. We're a pretty small cohort. We typically have no more than about 125-130 students. We're very focused on community and culture here at Foster. Our students are very big on helping each other achieve their goals. Our students are very driven and want to make a positive impact on the world, but they also want to help others do the same and it's something that I think is pretty special here at the Foster School.
What don't people know about Foster that you would want them to know? Is there a myth out there about Foster that you would like to dispel? [4:04]
I think there is an impression, and there is some truth to it, that there is a lot of interest and placement in technology, post-MBA here at Foster. We certainly have the benefit of having many technology companies right in our backyard. Our students are interested in that, but we also have really strong placement in marketing, consulting, and finance as well. That's one thing that I think sometimes people are a little bit surprised about. While we have a lot of students who pursue careers at those companies post-MBA here in Washington, we also have students that are working across the US as well. We have an expansion across the US.
Where do most of your grads go outside of Seattle? [4:59]
California, Chicago, New York City. We've seen more placement in other areas in the country as well.
Does Foster have any plans to consider the Executive Assessment Exam? [5:37]
Join us for some insights into MIT's Engineering Program [Show Summary]
Syed Shayan Zahid moved to the United States from Pakistan to pursue an education in engineering. He shares his journey from an undergrad at Purdue to a master’s at MIT and his next step, a career at Apple.
Interview with Syed Shayan Zahid, student body vice president at MIT [Show Notes]
Hello and welcome. Thanks for joining me for this, the 460th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Before I dive into today's interview, I want to invite you to download Applying To Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need To Know. This free guide will complement today's podcast and show you how to select the right engineering program for you, differentiate yourself from your competition in a positive way, and present yourself effectively as a talented, innovative future engineer and problem solver. One who will bring credit to any program that accepts you. Download it for free.
I'd like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk, Syed Shayan Zahid. Shayan grew up in Pakistan and came into the United States to study at Purdue University in Indiana and graduated in 2019 with distinction. While there, he pursued multiple internships at Cummins Inc. and also worked there full-time briefly. In 2020, he began his Master's in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering at the famed Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT. Now that's the skeleton of his story. Let's put some meat on those bones in this conversation.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where did you grow up? How'd you get interested in engineering? [2:17]
My name is Shayan, that's how I usually go by. Some people prefer calling me Syed, but whatever you prefer. I'm originally from Pakistan. I grew up in this metropolitan city called Lahore. It's one of the busiest cities, I would say, in Pakistan and is known for its historical significance and cultural heritage. We have, from the Mughal Empire dated centuries ago, a lot of historical monuments and buildings, and the city is divided into two parts. One is called Old Lahore, and the other is called just New Lahore, or Lahore in general. I am from the more modern part of it, but it was really interesting growing up in a place where you have a lot of history embedded in your day-to-day life.
What do you like to do for fun? [3:10]
That's a very good question. It depends on the time of the year, honestly. And then depending on how much time I have outside of my academic commitments. But mostly I like skiing. I've been doing ballroom dancing since 2015, since I moved to the US. I've been competing as well but COVID has stopped that spree of competitions. Hopefully they're going to start back up soon. I like to also pursue interests such as hiking, anything that involves being outdoors and traveling.
How did you get interested in engineering? [4:20]
That's a question I had a lot of difficulty answering for myself when I was applying to the US and undergrad. The main key thing that I looked to was what my experience was like in childhood and what I truly enjoyed. There were a few options. I took biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, all these STEM subjects in high school, and as I was evaluating, the one common thread that I found is, I really like understanding how things work and also how to make things that maybe make the world better in some way. That was kind of the vague idea I had in my head - that I want to pursue something that involves building something and understanding how things work. I wasn't too interested in the biological or life sciences per se, personally. But what really propelled me to make the final decision was how to put things together that already exist in the world to make something that is totally new and that when people see it think, "Oh, why wasn't this done 10 years ago?" So basically just a passion for inventing new things is what brought me to engineering.
Interested in a spot in Georgetown University SOM? [Show Summary]
Dr. Ellen Dugan, Georgetown Medical School’s Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid, describes how cura personalis, or care of the whole person, drives the Georgetown experience and curriculum.
Interview with Dr. Ellen Dugan, Georgetown Medical School’s senior associate dean for admissions [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 459th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but also tips on how to improve your qualifications and your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Our guest today is Dr. Ellen Dugan, Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid at Georgetown University School of Medicine. She is a Hoya through and through. She earned her MD at Georgetown University School of Medicine and then completed her residency training in Emergency Medicine, also at Georgetown. Following four years of service in the National Health Service in rural West Virginia, Dr. Dugan returned to Georgetown and has been on the faculty there since 1990. She served on the Admissions Committee for 10 years prior to becoming the Associate Dean. In addition to her admissions duties, she is an Associate Professor in the Department of Emergency Medicine and formerly served as the Vice-Chair and Interim Academic Chair in the Department of Emergency Medicine at Georgetown.
Can you give us an overview of Georgetown University School of Medicine's curriculum program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it? [2:10]
I'm happy to. That's our new curriculum, which they basically started revising in 2015-16. Our graduating class of 2021 was the first class to go all the way through, so it's fairly new. It's divided up into three phases. The first 18 months of the first and second year, or the foundational phase, are made up of six blocks of core content. They’re organ-system-based modules that integrate basic science disciplines with doctoring training if you will. The doctoring courses are called "cura personalis," referring to and uniting the development of professional skills that are unique to doctoring, like physical diagnosis, communications, ethics. This runs through all the blocks. There are also intercessions that are one week long that are emphasizing topics critical to physicians in healthcare. An example would be the opioid epidemic. Then they have medical student brand rounds all through the first three years.
The core clinical phase is the third year, which is blocked out into 4-8-week core clerkships. Those would be medicine, surgery, OB-GYN, pediatrics, family medicine, psychiatry, neurology, and three two-week selectives, or electives. Then there's the advanced clinical phase, which is the fourth year, and that's made up of 37 weeks. Three of those four-week blocks are required. One is four weeks in emergency medicine, and then the other two are four-week blocks in doing acting internships where they function as interns so that they get the confidence and the skills to hit the ground running for residency. Then the best part of it, they have 24 weeks of electives, so they can basically design their entire fourth-year course other than those first three blocks that they have to do. It really gives them great freedom.
Is the elective block always at the end of the fourth year, or does that vary depending upon the student? [3:59]
It varies. They can do the emergency medicine later on. What they want to do in those first few blocks is when they're getting ready for residency, they hone those blocks into the specialty they want to go into so that they have letters and clinical experience in that particular field.
What steps can you take to get accepted despite a low GPA? [Show Summary]
Linda Abraham outlines five steps for mitigating the impact of a low GPA so that you can move forward with a successful graduate school application.
Linda Abraham, Founder and CEO of Accepted shares her insights into overcoming low stats [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 458th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into our main topic for today, I want to invite you to take advantage of Accepted's library of free downloadable reports, several of which discuss how to apply successfully with low stats. Check them all out today.
Now to today's topic. I was recently doing some end-of-the-year/beginning-of-the-year review and noticed that one of our most popular podcasts is “Five A's For Your Low GPA”, which is now going to be replaced by today's podcast. I decided to address this topic again, because it is a recurring issue and because I'd like to address some factors that have changed since the initial podcast in 2016 which is almost six years ago.
We're going to go through the five A's as I call them, or the five steps for dealing with your low GPA. You really have to do all of them if you have a below-average GPA, because you want to mitigate its impact or ideally eliminate its impact as schools evaluate your application. So to deal with a GPA that is causing you concern, I'm going to give you the following five steps.
The five A's are:
Assess your GPA (is it really low?)Analyze the causes of your low GPAAddress those causesAdd context to the low GPAAvoid mistakes in addressing the GPA
Now let's go through each topic in more depth.
- Assess your GPA (is it really low?) [2:41]
I define a low GPA as one that is 0.3 or more below your target school's average GPA for matriculating students on the US 4.0 scale. This information can usually be found in posted class profiles, or sometimes on US news rankings, or on Accepted's Med Selectivity Index, Law Selectivity Index, and MBA Selectivity Index. An alternative definition, which also works in my book, is a GPA that is below your target school's 75th or 80th percentile if you have that information. Usually, the information I started with is a little bit easier to come by, but if you have this, it works also.
Now let's take a look at these definitions and discuss what's good and bad about them because there's good and bad in both of them. First, the good. What I like about these definitions is that they are relative to the schools you are targeting. So if you have a 3.3 GPA and the average GPA for the entering class at your target school is a 3.3, you do not have a low GPA. You don't have anything to mitigate. You don't have anything to address unless possibly there's a downward trend in your grades. However, don't tune out yet. If you have that same 3.3 and the schools that you're aiming for have an average GPA for accepted students of 3.7 or above, as do several medical schools, some law schools, Stanford Business School, and other graduate programs, then you have a low GPA and you should definitely, definitely listen to the rest of this podcast because you're going to need to do the steps that I'm going to outline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T0mGKJydMc
What's the flaw in my definition? Well, there are some flaws. Number one is admissions is about much more than just your GPA and you're going to see that later in this podcast. You cannot look at any one number, be it the number of publications you have, your GPA, your test score, the amount of work experience you have, the number of hours you volunteered, and focus exclusively on that number. It's just not going to work. Whether it's a good number or a bad number, admissions is much more holistic than that. It really, and truly is.
By focusing on the average, which I've done, remember I said 0.3 or more below the average, the definition doesn't reflect the impact of trends in...
Find out what the Oxford Saïd MBA program has to offer [Show Summary]
Hannah Griffiths, Oxford Saïd Business School’s MBA Recruitment and Admissions Manager, shares how the school aims to equip leaders to effect change in various sectors all over the world. Additionally, Hannah highlights what it takes to get accepted.
Interview with Hannah Griffiths, Oxford Saïd Business School’s MBA Recruitment and Admissions Manager [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 457th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Before we get to our wonderful guest, I'd like to invite you to join me for our next live MBA webinar. I will present “How to Maximize Your Chances of Acceptance and Reduce Your Stress Before the 2022 Application Season,” and I'm going to present it tomorrow, February 16th. During the webinar, I'm going to give you a plan that can prepare you for a successful MBA application this fall. The presentation is free, but you do need to reserve your seat, and you can do so at accepted.com/457webinar.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Hannah Griffiths, MBA Recruitment and Admissions Manager for Saïd Business School at the University of Oxford. Hannah earned her Master's in English from the University College Cork and shortly thereafter started working at Oxford in different roles and in different parts of the university. She's been there for most of her professional career. Since November 2019, she has been the MBA Recruitment and Admissions Manager for Oxford Saïd.
Can you give us an overview of the Oxford Saïd MBA program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:55]
Yes, absolutely. The Saïd Business School is a business school that is embedded within Oxford University. Our MBA program is a one-year MBA program, and given that the business school is embedded within a world-class university, that does impact the MBA experience in a number of different ways. One of those ways is that the students can expect in the one-year program a lot of academic rigor. Our program is an intensive one-year MBA. It aims to include everything that a candidate would maybe anticipate finding on a two-year program but packed into a 12-month period.
The main aim of the business school and of the MBA program is to prepare our students to be responsible business leaders and individuals who, as they move through their career in the future, are prepared to tackle world-scale problems, challenges, and to really see business as a vehicle to drive change, be that within the organizations that they work in, the sectors that they choose to work in, in their communities and sometimes on a larger scale in the countries that they choose to be based in.
In addition to academic rigor, another thing to highlight that students could anticipate finding on the Oxford MBA, is an incredibly diverse cohort. Our student body is largely international. Our current class is 94% international, with 71 different nationalities represented across the class. Diversity of thought is something that's very important to us at the Oxford MBA as well. We have a very broad range of different sector backgrounds represented in our cohort. That also means that students can expect a diverse range of career outcomes and also a global alumni network that will be very far-reaching in depth and breadth as well.
And obviously access to the greater Oxford community network, correct? [4:00]
Yes, absolutely, which largely comes from their college membership while they're with us in Oxford. But in terms of that alumni network, absolutely. They gain the benefit of having a network that they will have via the business school and then obviously another network that comes via the university as well.
One of the concerns with a one-year program is that maybe there won't be an opportunity for an internship. It's harder to make career changes.
Hear what it takes to get accepted to USC Gould School of Law [Show Summary]
USC Gould’s Associate Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid, David Kirschner, shares how students can get accepted to this top-ranked law school.
Interview with David Kirschner, Associate Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at USC Gould [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 456th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target program? Accepted's Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz and complete the quiz. You'll not only get an assessment, but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it's all free.
For today's interview, I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, David Kirschner, Associate Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at USC Gould School of Law. Dean Kirschner earned his undergrad degree at USC in Political Science and Film-Production. He then earned his JD at California Western School of Law. He has been in law school admissions since 2006 when he joined Loyola Law as Associate Dean of Admissions. In 2011, he became Director of Admissions at USC Gould, and in 2016, he became USC Gould's Associate Dean and Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of the USC Gould JD program? [2:06]
Certainly. I think one of the elements that certainly differentiates us a little bit from some of our peer schools is our small size. At beneath 200 students, at least that's our goal each year to bring in a first-year class of no more than 200 students, it lends itself to a very collegial and collaborative learning environment where students, not only get to know their faculty members well, but they also get to know one another very well and support one another. I think that small size is a great facet of a Gould education. I like to say small size does not mean small opportunity. As a relatively small law school, we're set in the heart of a major top-tier research university that sits at the heart of kind of the de facto and default capital of the Pacific Rim, which is Los Angeles.
There's no shortage of opportunity. There's no shortage of individuals to learn from. Not only do we have a great full-time tenured faculty, but we're also able to draw from a pool of incredibly talented practitioners in Los Angeles who serve as adjunct faculty, and teach some of the more niche style upper-division courses. Students not only have the ability to learn from experts in their fields who publish in research and present, but then also learn particular areas from practitioners who are doing things every day. I really think it's that combination of small class size, a collegial and collaborative environment with all of the resources that a university like USC offers, as well as a world-class city like Los Angeles.
In preparing for the call, I saw that the first year is a very much standard curriculum and the second two years are entirely elective. Is that right? [3:53]
That's quite accurate. In the second and third years, there are a few requirements. There's an upper-division writing requirement and there are certain classes where the material is tested frequently on the bar that students choose to take but those bar classes are not required.
There’s tremendous, tremendous flexibility in the upper-division.
How has COVID affected the curriculum and experience at USC Law, and what do you think is going to stick? [4:29]
It has impacted things in so many ways. I think one of the lasting impacts will be flexibility. I don't necessarily see any significant short-term impacts on the curriculum. As you probably know, and as some listeners may know, legal education has looked remarkably similar for quite a long time. Of course,
How to Get Accepted to the Perelman School of Medicine [Show Summary]
Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean of Admissions for Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, the first medical school in the United States, explores the values the school instills in its community while reflecting on the new wave of interest in medical careers that has developed over the course of the past two years.
Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean of Admissions at PSOM [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 455th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Calculator can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete your quiz, and you will not only get an assessment, but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Professor and Vice Chair of Education in the Department of Radiation Oncology at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Neha Vapiwala is also the Dean of Admissions at Penn’s Perelman School of Medicine. She earned her Bachelor's in biology and Hispanic studies from Johns Hopkins and her MD from the University of Pennsylvania.Dr. Vapiwala, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
Could you start by giving an overview of the Perelman School of Medicine's curriculum? [2:00]
Absolutely. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to listeners today about our idea of medical school education here at the Perelman School of Medicine. We think of it as learning for life, so really establishing the foundation of medical education, but recognizing it goes and extends well beyond our students' time with us and working to establish the best practices and the foundation for a lifetime of learning, which I think all of us in the healthcare field understand. It's a very humbling and constant reminder of how much there is yet to know.
We start in the summer of the first year of medical school with the core principles, what we refer to as Module One. It's all of the basic sciences. This is a pass/fail block. The idea is really for all of our learners, all of our students who may or may not have been science majors in undergraduate, who may or may not have done a post-baccalaureate year, it's bringing everyone onto that same page as far as our basic sciences.
After that first six-month period, we launch into Module Two, which is a full calendar year. It runs from January of the first year into December of the second year and teaches what's called Integrative Systems and Disease. It's taking all of those foundational basic science elements, and it's saying, "Okay, how does this apply to the human body? How do we think about the cardiovascular system, the pulmonary system, renal, and so on and so forth?" It goes through all of these disease site, organ-based modules with this idea that you're learning about the normal function of the human body, the physiology, and then learning to identify the pathology, both in terms of what you see under the microscope and what you see in the human patient, in front of you in the exam room, and really integrating all of it so that the learning in the classroom is given immediate clinical impact and context.
These basic science and then disease site-based modules are, of course, integral, but concurrent with all of this, we have Module Three which is running from that first day of medical school through December of the second year. It's called Technology and Practice of Medicine. Of course, students are learning the science, but there are also so many other aspects of healthcare: the business of healthcare, the innovation, the role of information technology and artificial intelligence and everything in-between to really help understand and give some depth to a lot of what we're learning in the classroom. This is meant to enhance the core curriculum.
The intersection of business and human rights led to the Oxford Said EMBA [Show Summary]
Anthony Triolo is a champion of social justice with an impressive work history serving countries all over the globe. He’s currently earning his Executive MBA at Oxford Said and shares what led him to the program and how he intends to incorporate his learning in the next steps of his career journey.
Interview with Anthony Triolo, Oxford Said Executive MBA candidate [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for this, the 454th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Before I dive into today's interview, I want to invite you to download Ace The EMBA, Expert Advice For The Rising Executive. This free guide will compliment today's podcast and give you suggestions on how to choose the right EMBA program for you, how to differentiate yourself from your competition - in a positive way - and how to present yourself effectively as a business leader who will bring credit to any program that accepts you. Download Ace The EMBA.
I'd like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk, Anthony Triolo. Anthony has an absolutely fascinating background. After graduating from Yale with a bachelor's in history and political science in 2000, he went on to work on the Truth And Reconciliation Commission for Sierra Leone, where he worked from 2003-2009 in differing roles, all relating to justice.
He then worked as a Senior Associate for the UN’s Special Tribunal for Lebanon at the Hague. After serving in additional roles related to international law and justice, he became the Director of Strategic Initiatives at the Rule of Law Collaborative at the University of South Carolina in 2020. While all the above is extremely impressive and interesting, he has been invited to Admissions Straight Talk because he recently began his Executive MBA at the Oxford Said Business School as an Executive MBA Director Awardee, which earned him a sizable financial award.
Let's get right to it. In preparing for the call, I saw the phrase “transitional justice”, several times in your bios and in your work. So I have to ask you, what is transitional justice? [2:35]
Transitional justice is a way to help societies who are grappling with the legacy of massive human rights abuses confront their past so they can move forward and have a more prosperous future. We usually talk about transitional justice in the post-conflict setting. I've worked on transitional justice initiatives on a global scale and usually what that means is prosecuting individuals who were responsible for war crimes that were committed during the conflict. It's about truth telling, telling the story of what happened during the conflict and making recommendations for the way forward. It's about reparative justice for the victims, and it's about institutional reform. How do we repair what was broken and make it better so that the occurrence of violence doesn't happen again? In reality, transitional justice is not only limited to post-conflict societies. It includes all societies across the board, including the U.S.
Given your career progress to date, why did you decide to even consider an Executive MBA? [3:51]
I'm 20 years into my professional career, and I'm sort of reading the tea leaves. I'm really interested in the intersection of business and human rights. I've worked a lot in the public sector, but I realize in order to really make an impact and have a transformative impact in the world, you need greater partnerships between the public and private sector. I was thinking that the MBA could help me get a better understanding of the private sector to help build those partnerships that are necessary to bring about change in our society. That's what really led me to pursue the Executive MBA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yicKKHheUE
What was the most difficult part of the application process for you and how did you deal with it? [4:40]
I think it was trying to pick a program that was right for me...
Applying to MD/PhD programs? Here's what you need to know [Show Summary]
Dr. Herman “Flash” Gordon, an Accepted consultant and former chair of the University of Arizona Tucson College of Medicine's admissions committee, provides a deep dive into the application process for MD/PhD programs, highlighting crucial preparation tips.
Interview with Dr. Herman “Flash” Gordon [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 453rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Do you want to get accepted to medical school this cycle? We have a webinar that's just perfect for you. You're invited to the webinar titled Start Medical School in 2023: How to Get Accepted This Year. Watch the webinar here.
Our guest today is Dr. Herman AKA "Flash" Gordon, Accepted consultant and former chair of the University of Arizona Tucson College of Medicine's admissions committee. Dr. Gordon also served on PhD admissions committees while at the University of Arizona. Since joining Accepted, he's guided clients to acceptance at MD, PhD, and MD/PhD programs, sometimes to several acceptances at those programs. Dr. Gordon has been on Admissions Straight Talk several times in the past, and it's my distinct pleasure to have him on again today.
We're going to focus this show on MD/PhD admissions. How and when did you get involved in med school admissions and then specifically the MD/PhD world? [1:58]
I started on the University of Arizona admissions committee about a decade ago. It was one of these things that's like, "Oh, it's your turn to take on a big service job." I knew nothing about what I was getting into, although I was teaching med students. It was interesting. I very quickly learned that it was actually a great committee and that for everyone who was on it, they felt like it was the best service they had ever done. It's a major responsibility, you're determining people's futures, you're shaping the class that you're going to teach, it's just a great opportunity. And you're doing positive things; it's not like a disciplinary committee or something like that.
How long were you the chair of the committee and roughly how many applications did you evaluate in that period? [3:06]
I was on the committee for four years, and I was chair for the last two years. At the committee level, about 600 applications make it through the interview and then go on to the full committee. So that's 600 a year of which, as chair, you have to look at all of those. But when you're on a subcommittee, or at least we ran with subcommittees, then you get about a fifth of those, so 120 or so. It's a lot of work. For a typical admissions committee member, it's about 200 hours which is a lot. As chair, it's probably closer to 600.
Although I had done PhD admissions in neuroscience, I was new to how the MD/PhD admissions worked. Different schools do it differently. At the University of Arizona, there was a separate MD/PhD committee and both that committee and the regular MD committee had to accept the applicant. So it was this sort of parallel process. At some schools, the MD/PhD committee has more autonomy, you have an allotted number of slots and get to fill them however you want.
But there is a very large component of both sides having to accept you. They have to accept you as a clinician, and they have to accept you as a researcher.
Are there different kinds of MD/PhD programs? And if so, what are some of the major categories? [4:54]
I think the biggest distinction is whether it has an MSTP or not. The MSTP is an NIH funded program that basically pays for a certain number of students to be in an MD/PhD program each year, so that gets you a full ride. While you are doing your research component, you're getting a stipend as well as having your tuition paid so you're acting as a graduate student during that time.
There are other programs which don't have an MSTP. They all aspire to have an MSTP because it's a load of money and it allows you to attra...
An overview of the UT McCombs MBA program and what you need to know to get accepted [Show Summary]
Rodrigo Malta, UT Austin’s Director of Admissions highlights key factors that make the UT McCombs full time MBA program attractive to many. He discusses what students can expect from a virtual admissions process and gives tips he’s gleaned from his 10+ years in his role.
Interview with Rodrigo Malta, Managing Director, MBA Recruitment and Admissions at UT McCombs [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 452nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. Are you debating whether to apply during Round 3 of this year or Round 1 of next year? It's a great question, and there are pros and cons to each position. Join me on January 20th at 10:00 AM Pacific, 1:00 PM Eastern for our next MBA Admissions webinar when I'm going to dive deep into who should apply Round 3 and who would be better off waiting until next year. You can reserve your free seat for this webinar, our first MBA webinar of 2022 at accepted.com/round3.
It gives me great pleasure to have, for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Rodrigo Malta, Managing Director, MBA Recruitment and Admissions at UT Austin McCombs. Rodrigo earned his bachelor's at Missouri State and his MBA from UT Austin McCombs in 2007. He started working in MBA admissions at McCombs in 2008 and became the Managing Director in 2010. In addition to his duties at UT Austin, Rodrigo is a member of the Board of Trustees of The Consortium for Graduate Study in Management, of Salesforce’s Recruitment and the Admissions Advisory Council and he's also UT's representative on the Graduate Management Admission Council. Rodrigo, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
Can you give us a basic overview of the full-time MBA program at UT, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:29]
Thank you, Linda, for giving me the opportunity to share a little bit about Texas McCombs. I'm going to speak and share information primarily about our two-year MBA program at our Austin, Texas, campus.
For the full-time MBA program in particular, I think there are three distinctive elements that I would like the listeners to know about as they're considering different business schools to pursue their studies.
First, it’s a highly flexible and deep curriculum that we have for our full-time MBA students. So coming in, we bring in a class of about 260 students from a variety of walks of life and educational and professional backgrounds. It is really important for us to ensure they have kind of that core business foundation, the core classes. You do all your core classes, the majority of that first semester, together in cohorts. We divide those 260 students into four cohorts, and everybody gets that solid academic business foundation to then explore 100+ electives that we have across 20 concentrations in classes that you can take at the business school and outside the business school. This highly flexible and deep curriculum where over 70% of the program itself is self-selected coursework is one of the highlights of our program.
The second highlight that I want to share with the listeners are the people. We have amazing individuals pursuing their dreams here at Texas McCombs and amazing faculty members that are going to be supporting you along the way. The combination of the amazing research faculty that is not only creating knowledge, but disseminating it in a really great way in the classroom with students that are thirsty to know more, to make an impact, and the staff that's going to be there to really advise you and help you navigate all the opportunities of Texas McCombs is really important. So the people are number two.
And the last aspect is place. We are really fortunate to be part of one of the primary research institutions in the US at the University of Texas at Austin. It is even luckier that we are in the amazing city of Austin which provides our...
All about the distinctive program at UWSOM and how to get accepted [Show Summary]
Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz, Associate Dean for Admissions at UWSOM gives an in-depth look at the top ranking program, highlighting adaptations that have been made as a result of the pandemic and outlining each step of the University of Washington’s admissions process.
Interview with University of Washington School of Medicine’s Dean of Admissions, Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz [Show Notes]
Welcome to the 451st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's med school admissions calculator can get you a quick reality check, just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance, plus it's all free.
Our guest today is Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz, UWSOM's Associate Dean for Admissions. Dr. Muzquiz graduated from UWSOM in 2000 and received a Native American Center of Excellence certificate for successful completion of the Indian Health Pathway at UW. She did her residency at the Seattle Indian Health Board Clinic through the Swedish Family Medicine Residency Program in Seattle and was chief president from 2002 to 2003. She has tribal citizenship with the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes, the CSKT, in Montana. She worked as a family physician with a CSKT since 2003, and in 2011 became the medical director for CSKT Tribal Health. She's also taught medical students and physician assistant students for UWSOM for the past 12 years. She assumed the role of Associate Dean in 2018 after serving as Assistant Dean for approximately one year.
Can you give an overview of UW’s curriculum focusing on the more distinctive elements? [2:32]
It's a fairly complex starter. We had a curriculum revision in 2015 where we really embraced the idea of clinical experiences early and often, incorporating that into a block style of curriculum taught over three different phases. We have our first phase, which is our foundation phase, which is mostly the basic sciences incorporated into a clinical experience way of presenting material. students get the opportunity to really learn basic science through some traditional lecture format and small group work, but are also assigned to do early clinical experiences with a primary care practicum and link to some mentorship early, as well as learning their clinical skills right at the outset of the start of medical school. Then they're able to take the basic science knowledge and the pathophysiology and apply that to patient care and see it in action, in real life. It really helps set that foundational knowledge. That lasts for roughly 18 to 24 months, because we're starting our year earlier actually coming up for the class entering in 2022. That lasts for the first part of medical school, and then the second phase is our clerkship phase, which is where folks do the traditional clerkships required. It's essentially the third year of clerkships, where it's the foundational family medicine, OB-GYN, surgery, internal medicine, psychiatry, etc. The final phase is the explore and focus phase. That's where we do our elective rotations. So there's a little bit more flexibility. Folks are really exploring their career choices, doing some internships, trying to get that experience in the fields that they're interested in. And then they're applying for residency throughout that time as well and getting ready for that experience. Interestingly, we also have a more longitudinal curriculum that's taught throughout for example the social determinants of health and how those weave throughout.
There are different weeks that are paused in between basic sciences or in between the time for clerkships where there's a focus more on how health and healthcare impact populations and specific populations.
I am swamped now with clients facing early January deadlines so I decided to end 2021 with one of our most popular shows of the year, my interview with Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine’s Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Equity, Inclusion, and Diversity, Dr. Lindia Wllies-Jacobo.The Kaiser Permanente School has not yet graduated its first class, but with its tuition-free approach, dedication to social equity, and emphasis on small-group learning, it has an acceptance rate of roughly 1% and is third on Accepted’s medical school selectivity index. It is very hard to get into.
However, in this excellent and very popular interview, Dr. Willies-Jacobo lays out clearly what Kaiser Permanente is looking for.
As we put away or throw out our calendars from 2021 and turn to 2022, I also want to share a few thoughts. When New Years Day comes and goes, some of us ignore the milestone, but many look back - and look forward. Whether your 2021 was a good one or bad one, I hope that AST’s listeners will muster their courage and determination, their positivity and ability, to plan to create a better year, a better future for themselves and the world. To paraphrase Stanford GSB’s motto “Improve lives. Improve organizations. Improve the world.” Again, thank you for listening to the podcast. I wish you much success in this brand new, exciting year ahead.
Now the interview with Dr. Lindia Willies-Jacobo of Kaiser Permanente Tyson School of Medicine.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related links:
Kaiser Permanente’s Tyson School of Medicine’s websiteThe Medical School Selectivity IndexMatching Your Values to the Medical School Mission StatementAccepted’s Medical Admissions Consulting
Related shows:
Are You Rushing to Attend Rush Medical College?How to Get Accepted to Chicago Medical School at Rosalind FranklinHow To Get Accepted to University of Illinois College of MedicineAll About BU School of Medicine, a Social Justice-Minded Med SchoolWhat Med School Applicants Must Know About Johns HopkinsEverything Applicants Need to Know About the Dell Medical School Experience
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It’s a busy time of year now. We here at Accepted are busy helping applicants with the end-of-the-year application crunch and enjoying the company of family.
Perhaps adding to your happiness, you are planning a move to a new location after an acceptance. Or perhaps you’re not yet at that happy stage; you’re knee-deep in essay writing because your applications are due in January. Or maybe you are wisely planning ahead for a 2022 application with the intention to matriculate in 2023 – you’re preparing for your aptitude test and working to raise your GPA or get relevant experience.
Wherever you are in the application process, now is a great time for an encore show. Since it was one of the most popular MBA admissions interviews of 2021, I decided to replay the excellent interview provided by Lisa Rios, Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions at NYU Stern School of Business.
I want to take this opportunity to thank you for listening week in and week out, or whenever you find a show you like.
I also want to wish you a wonderful holiday season and a happy, healthy and prosperous new year, filled with the realization of your educational and professional dreams, and of course acceptances.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related links:
NYU Stern’s websiteNYU Stern MBA Essay Tips & Deadlines [2021-2022] & Class ProfileTop STEM MBA Programs: A Comprehensive List and Overview of STEM-OPT Eligible B-SchoolsWhy MBA? a free guideAccepted’s MBA Admissions Consulting Services
Related shows:
An Interview with Dartmouth Tuck’s Former Admissions Director, Luke PenaNYU Stern: An Insider’s Perspective on Getting AcceptedHow to Get a CMU Tepper MBAAll About Becoming a Georgetown McDonough MBAWake Up to Your Amazing Career PossibilitiesNYU Stern’s New Online Masters in Quantitative Management
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An inside look at UCLA Law School and what you need to know to get in [Show Summary]
Robert Schwartz, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Law, shares an inside look at the unique opportunities the program offers students and important tips for those seeking to attend law school.
Interview with Rob Schwartz, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Law [Show Notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 448th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Or, perhaps are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year, or even later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz and you'll not only get an assessment, but you'll get tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Now, let's move into today's interview. I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Robert Schwartz, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Law. Dean Schwartz earned his JD from Cardozo Law and graduated magna cum laude. He then practiced law for several years before returning to Cardozo, where he served as Dean of Admissions for 11 years. He joined UCLA in October 2006. Dean Schwartz, thanks for joining me today on Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of UCLA Law School's JD program? [1:52]
Sure, I can try to do that, at least for a little bit. I think it's a very distinctive school and program so there's a lot to say about it. In terms of distinction, I feel like we offer a lot of programs that are really on the cutting edge, that are very important in society today. So you take issues like climate change, we have the Emmett Institute for Climate Change and the Environment. You take issues like civil rights and racial justice, we have a specialization in critical race studies, one of the only schools in the country to offer such a specialization. Take the issue of LGBT rights, the Williams Institute for Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Law is located here at UCLA. There are several others. We've recently launched a Center for Immigration Law and Policy, and a Technology Law Center. On the human rights front, we consider ourselves a powerhouse here on the West Coast, through the Promise Institute for Human Rights. So those are just a few examples.
I'm also very proud of our program that we offer in the first year, before the first full week of classes. We call it Law 101 and it's a five day program which gives students an introduction to what law school is all about. I think it makes them feel more comfortable, as they get ready to start their legal studies. You even get to take a practice law school exam at the end of the first week. It's just pass/fail but I think it gets the jitters out before you start your real classes.
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UCLA is famous for its strength in arts, entertainment and media law. I read that 29% of the students specialize in media, entertainment and technology law and policy. Can you touch on what UCLA offers in those areas, both in the classroom and outside of it, in terms of extracurricular opportunities? [3:35]
I'm glad you brought this up because when I mention a few things, I inevitably leave a few things out and what I left out was the Ziffren Institute for Media, Entertainment, Technology and Sports Law, which is another one of our specializations. It's actually not that high of a percentage of students who actually specialize in entertainment. By the time they graduate, I'd say only about five to seven percent of our students actually graduate with a specialization in entertainment law. But, it's a phenomenal program available to students. In the first year, students can go and attend talks, lunches, and events with our alumni who are executives in all kinds of positio...
Thinking of applying to NYU Stern’s Online MSQM program? [Show summary]
Launched right before the pandemic, NYU Stern’s online MSQM program offers a unique blend of business management foundations, leadership and analytics to (mostly) young professionals. NYU Stern’s Vice Dean for online learning, Dr. Kim Corfman, joins us to share details about the program.
Interview with NYU Stern's Vice Dean for Online Learning Dr. Kim Corfman [Show notes]
Welcome to the 447th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today's interview, I want to mention an Accepted resource that can help you prepare your statement of purpose to the MSQM, to a data analytics program, or a master's in management, as well as to other graduate programs. Download Five Fatal Flaws To Avoid In Your Grad School Statement of Purpose to learn how to avoid the five most common mistakes we see in grad school statements of purpose. You'll also learn how to write an SOP that makes your story memorable and highlights your qualifications for your target program. Download this valuable, free resource at accepted.com/447download.
Our guest today is Dr. Kim Corfman. She is a professor of Marketing at NYU Stern and Vice Dean for online learning. She has served as Vice Dean for MBA programs, Academic Director of the Langone Part-time MBA program, and Coordinator of the Doctoral Program in Marketing. Needless to say, she knows a ton about management education and NYU Stern specifically. As I mentioned today, we're going to talk about Stern’s fairly new MS in Quantitative Management program.
What is the Master's in Quantitative Management at NYU Stern? Can you provide an overview? [2:22]
The MSQM provides business basics, essentially, the MBA core plus analytics courses. The combination is designed to help students become data-literate managers and leaders. That's the really short headline about it.
It's 20 months from start to finish and it's lock-step, so there are no electives. Students take one course at a time for three to three and a half weeks per course. They come one right on top of the next and are pretty intense, but we've calibrated them so they are manageable for motivated students.
What kind of academic background are you looking for? [3:16]
We welcome applicants with any undergraduate major and we have a wide variety. We do have some undergraduate business students. We even have some people who got MBAs already. Lawyers. A couple of doctors. It's quite diverse, which is really fun.
The other part of that is submitting a standardized test score is optional. Something we want to make very sure applicants understand that if they choose not to send us a test score, we do need to see strong evidence of the quantitative, verbal, and reasoning abilities that are necessary to be successful in this kind of program. They do need some math and reasoning ability. They need to be able to write and we need to be able to see that.
What would be the minimum level of math that you would like to see? [4:12]
Some calculus and a lot of the basic maths that leads up to that. On our website, we very clearly lay out exactly what prerequisites they should have.
What type of students are you attracting to the program in terms of experience? Is there a maximum amount of work experience that you consider? Do you require full-time work experience? I recall, we spoke two and a half years ago, you were really aiming it at early-experience or even pre-experience students. [4:29]
We originally thought that would be the population that found it most appealing, but we've ended up seeing that even though we get a fair number of applicants right out of undergrad, most of them are in the typical MBA applicant age-range, and we have a whole bunch that are considerably more senior - they've already had very successful careers and they're looking to refresh. Or they never got an MBA and this looks like something that ...
Are less-than-stellar language skills preventing you from reaching your professional or academic or personal goals? [Show summary]
Christina Ball, Fulbright scholar and founder of Speak! Language Center and B-Speak! brings her love of cultures and languages to this episode. She describes the approach her programs take to making language learning enjoyable and effective for those looking to improve their English or learn a new language.
Language issues don't need to keep you from reaching your dreams [Show notes]
Welcome to the 446th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for joining me today. Before we dive into today's interview, I want to share a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you are applying to graduate school. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted's free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance. Download your free guide at accepted.com/fiso.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time, Dr. Christina Ball. A Fulbright scholar, Dr. Ball earned her PhD in Italian language and Literature. In 2004, she founded Speak! Language Center to help people learn other languages. In 2012, she co-created B-Speak! English, a one-on-one coaching and educational service designed to help international graduate students, especially those applying to business school, and working professionals strengthen their speaking and writing skills in the English language. She's also a writer and actress. Let's hear her story and then cover how she can help you.
How did you get into the business of language instruction, both for Speak! and B-Speak!? [2:13]
It all started with my own passion for language and my interest in languages and cultures. Both sets of my grandparents were immigrants from Poland and Italy, so I grew up hearing lots of Italian and Polish in the household of my grandparents. I think it all started there. Then, in my own travels and studies, I just fell in love with Italian, French, Spanish, all of the literature, and meeting people and hearing their stories and learning about culture, so real love of culture. Speak! started in 2004. I have an academic background, so I was a college professor before starting my business. Many people in my family have businesses, so I think I definitely have the entrepreneurial gene.
I was teaching at Yale, Wake Forest and here where I live at University of Virginia, and I just started to notice not only my own desire to have a language center, but also people kept asking me, "I'm not a student at UVA. I'm an adult, and I'm going to Italy. How can I learn Italian?" I just saw there was a real need for a language center like you have all over Europe. You'll find private businesses, which are language centers, teaching people all of the languages of the world, but it's less common here in the US where we tend to rely on universities to teach us.
So in 2004, I started a one-room Italian school called Ecco. In Italian, ‘ecco’ means like ‘voila’, or ‘here it is’. I had about five adult students and me as the teacher and then over the years the demand for Spanish, French, and German caused us to change the name to Speak! Language Center in 2009 and to add online services. Now we teach 22 languages as well as obviously English, and we just added sign language. It's very exciting.
We started B-Speak in 2012 through a local connection. We have the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business here. We started hearing from some of their own graduate students from different countries, such as China and Korea, and they came to us on their own saying "I see you do English now. Can you help me? I'm struggling in my class” or “I'm not getting any internship or job inter...
What to do if you have no interviews [Show summary]
What do you do if you still haven’t heard back from medical schools by Thanksgiving? In this episode, podcast host Linda Abraham shares how students can pursue parallel tracks to expand their opportunities.
Linda Abraham's advice for med school applicants who still haven't received interview invitations [Show notes]
Welcome to the 445th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for tuning in.
I decided to do a solo show today. This is my second in a row, but don't worry we're going to go back to normal interview programming next week. This show is aimed at our premed listeners, but I think there is value to other applicant groups as well in listening in. But the focus today will be on medical school this time.
As I mentioned, this is Thanksgiving week, a short week, and I have something timely to discuss, so I'm going to share it. I'm also going to keep this podcast a little shorter than usual in honor of the short week and also because I think I can cover the topic in less time and I'm not going to keep you on the podcast for no good reason. I'm going to dive into our timely topic in just a second.
The freebie we're offering with today's show couldn't be more relevant to today's topic. One common reason for no interviews or ultimately rejection for medical school applicants is that they simply aimed too high. And you have to ask yourself, were you really competitive at your target programs? If you're aiming ahead, are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Calculator can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Recent admission stats [2:38]
Now, let's face it. It's hard to get into medical school. The process is long, difficult and grueling. In my opinion, of all the graduate and professional programs, it has the most demanding process. One of the difficult parts of it, by the way, is the utter silence at this stage of the game. But leaving that aside for the moment, acceptance rates support my contention. The AAMC reports applicants aiming for the class that entered in 2020, where I strongly suspect acceptance rates were higher than this past cycle that entered in 2021, enjoyed a 41.9% acceptance rate overall. That means that most applicants were rejected. And the news from AACOMAS is even worse. The most recent data, which is only for 2018, shows that of 20,981 applicants to 20 DO programs, 7,415 were accepted. That’s a 35.34% acceptance rate. In other words, almost two thirds were rejected. Now, this data is all for the classes that applied before COVID. It is not for the class that applied through the pandemic when the so-called Fauci effect is believed to have contributed to a surge in medical school applications, the recession probably also had some role to play.
What medical schools are looking for beyond grades [3:57]
Most admissions directors whom I have spoken with are still seeing a high level of applications this year, but AMC data is not yet available for last year's cycle or for this one. Of course, while we're talking about stats and numbers, the focus tends to be on GPA and MCAT but medical school admissions aren’t just about stats. Medical school admissions offices are very serious about holistic review. In my many interviews with medical school Admissions Directors and Deans, when I ask them, "How do you winnow it down? How do you choose from the thousands who apply to the few hundred who get interviewed and then maybe one or two hundred who are accepted?" The answer almost always is: your essays, your experiences, and your writing. They’re looking at what you've put in the application, not just the grades and the stats.
So in addition to competitive grades and MCAT, which you definitely do need,
The best way to approach your MBA application [Show summary]
You have your GPA and test score but how should you approach the actual application? In this episode Linda Abraham, Admissions Straight Talk host, shares Accepted’s DARE framework to help you confidently apply to your dream schools.
The essential ingredients that adcoms look for in an application [Show notes]
Welcome to the 444th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for tuning in.
I decided to do a solo show today, just me and you. Because this is a particularly packed episode, we also have a worksheet for you. You can use it to take notes or use it later independent of the podcast to perhaps jot things down that you remember from the podcast and add to it. You can download your worksheet at accepted.com/444download.
Before we explore today's topic, I want to invite all Admissions Straight Talk listeners to take advantage of a fantastic special that Accepted is offering this week: up to $1,000 off our services purchased by November 19th, which is Friday. The coupon code is SAVENOW. Whatever graduate program you're considering, the time to buy and save is really right now. Go to accepted.com/services to find the right service for you. Get details about the special, and then use the coupon code saved now on this investment in your future.
This, our last special of 2021, also relates directly to the topic of today's show, Creating Compelling Round 2 MBA Applications. Now, dear listener, if you're not an MBA applicant, you may still find relevant nuggets in this show, which really is focusing on strategy and maximizing your application. All the examples will be related to MBA applications. I recently delivered a webinar on this topic, and frankly, it was very well received - so well received that I decided to provide much of the content from the webinar here. If you attended the webinar, you're certainly welcome to stay for a review and also for a few tidbits that weren't in the original.
Now, let's start with some basic assumptions: you're dreaming of a career that excites you, you're aspiring to MBA programs that will launch you towards that career, but you face obstacles. You have a problem.
How do you build an application that portrays you at your best and is a perfect match for the schools you're aiming for? How do you move your application reader from your stats to your story? [2:51]
I'll tell you, you use a framework that allows you to use your application strategically making the most of every inch of application real estate available to you. That part of the strategy that I'm going to outline is something that is true of every single applicant to any graduate school. Whatever program you are applying to, you want to make the most of every inch of application real estate available to you. So, part of implementing this strategy is going to start right now.
You can download the worksheet, if you haven't already, from accepted.com/444download, and use it. My recommendation is to get a pile of little sticky notes and on each one, put an idea for something that you want the schools to know. Talking about business schools, I would focus on achievements, obstacles overcome, leadership examples, teamwork examples, examples of your resilience, initiative, organizational ability, but you only need three for this exercise. Put one idea on each post-it note and then put the post-it note on the part of the worksheet where you feel it most belongs.
It's quite possible you might be thinking that some experiences could exemplify leadership and overcoming obstacles and an achievement, that's fine. You can copy the ideas into multiple squares. That's just fine. But at the end of the day, you want to make sure that your application is revealing a multifaceted portrait of you and that you have demonstrated these different qualities. As ideas come to you during the podcast, or as additional ideas come to you later,
Are you thinking about taking a standardized test for undergraduate or graduate admissions? Read on for must-know test-prep information! [Show summary]
We’re calling in test prep leaders and co-hosts of the Tests and the Rest podcast, Mike Bergin and Amy Seeley to discuss tips and strategies for choosing the right test prep for you as well as the best approach to test taking all the way from SATs and ACTs to GMATs and LSATs.
Test-prep pros Mike Bergin and Amy Seeley share their expertise and advise [Show notes]
Welcome to the 443rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me.
Today's show is all about test prep, and I'd like to start with a one question quiz for you. What is the paradox at the heart of graduate school admissions? You have five seconds, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I'll tell you. You have to show that you belong at your target programs and that you stand out in this applicant pool. Doing so is a paradox, and it's a challenge. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox At The Heart of Admissions will show you how to do both simultaneously. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance. Download your guide at accepted.com/fiso as in fitting in, standing out.
I want to thank Alex Levenger for leaving a review on our July 20th episode. I'm going to quote excerpts from it. He wrote, "I gained some excellent bits from the July 20th episode. Number one, there really are two disparate attitudes that can make the GMAT tough: thinking you're better than the exam and freezing into paralysis." And his second point was, "The GMAT is a metaphor for a study or general work tasks. My main quibble is with the initial assessment test. I think it's faulty to gain any useful granular info into a student by using this test." Lots of people agree with you, Alex.
Our guests today are test prep experts and fellow podcasters, Mike Bergin and Amy Seeley. A word about each of them.
With over 27 years of intensive experience in every aspect of standardized test preparation, Mike Bergin knows what works in test prep and what doesn't. A nationally recognized leader in test prep, Mike founded Chariot Learning in 2009 to deliver on the promise of what truly transformative individualized education can and should be. Mike is also the founding president of the board of directors of the National Test Prep Association, a non-profit dedicated to promoting the highest ethical standards and best practices in the test prep industry, while advocating for the appropriate administration and use of standardized tests for admissions and assessment purposes. Lastly, Mike is also the co-host of Tests and the Rest, the college admissions industry podcast and creator of the Facebook industry group for test prep professionals, Test Prep Tribe. He and his podcast co-host Amy Seeley even run the nation's leading test prep conferences and online summits.
Turning to Amy. Amy Seeley began her career in test preparation over 28 years ago, working for Princeton Review after gaining valuable knowledge and experience as a part-time tutor, she turned that passion into a career with Townsend Learning Centers. She quickly assumed the role of director of test preparation services, creating, managing, and administering all aspects of Townsend's test preparation programs. After leaving Townsend in 2006, Amy began Seeley Test Preparation services, meeting the test preparation needs of several hundred students annually in the greater Cleveland area. As demand grew for Amy's assistance in improving test scores, Seeley Test Pros was born in 2012 with the addition of tutors trained and successful methods and strategies of Amy's experience. Amy's knowledge of standardized tests is unsurpassed. Amy is the founder and co-host with Mike Bergin of Tests and the Rest, college admissions industry podcast, which discusses the latest issues in testing, admissions, learning and education with experts.
Are you dreaming of a spot at Yale School of Management? [Show summary]
Bruce DelMonico, Yale School of Management’s Assistant Dean of Admissions, returns and shares how the school has endured the pandemic and highlights updates in the admissions process.
What applicants need to know about this mission-driven, case-based MBA program [Show notes]
Welcome to the 442nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. Are you preparing to apply to your dream business schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's MBA admissions calculator can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to actually improve your qualifications and your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free!
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It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk and introduce Bruce DelMonico, Assistant Dean of Admissions at the Yale School of Management. He has been on the admissions team at Yale since 2004, became the Director in 2006, and the Assistant Dean in 2012. He was last on Admissions Straight Talk almost exactly two years ago in October 2019. It seems like a lifetime ago, because that was, of course, before COVID.
Bruce, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show. So much has changed in the last two years.
We're going to do some review from the last conversation. I would actually recommend that all listeners also listen to Bruce’s previous interview which is at accepted.com/338 but let's start here.
Can you please provide a basic overview of the Yale SOM MBA program for listeners who may not be that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:17]
Sure, happy to. So here at Yale, we have a full-time, two-year MBA. Hopefully the listeners are familiar with the general structure of the MBA program. I think some of the things that make our program distinctive are the fact that we are very mission oriented. Our founding mission is to educate leaders for business and society. That's a very broad, multi-sector mission. I think that definitely does animate and influence just about everything that happens here at the School of Management. For students who are here, for those of your listeners who come here to Yale, that means a few things. The first year of your experience, the core curriculum consists of our integrated curriculum, which is different from what you would experience in other business schools. I think that's one distinctive aspect. And we can go more into that, but I won't bore you with all the details now. But it's a very integrated, as the name implies, a multidisciplinary approach, really trying to get our students to think broadly across disciplines and functions.
We also are case-based, but we have our own case writing team, so we use raw cases, as we call them. That's another distinct feature. Although it's become more common, we do have a very global orientation, and so many global opportunities exist here. That's actually a required part of your experience here at Yale. I think that was something that, again, has become more common, but I think we're the first school to really make that a required part of the experience.
What's the difference between a raw case and a more traditional case? [4:00]
So a traditional case, or a cooked case, as we call them, involves the case writing team doing the research, gathering all the materials, and then distilling it all down, boiling it all down into a 10 to 12 page document that leads the reader to a single point or the thrust of the case. It's very linear and makes one culminating point. The idea is that all the things that are irrelevant or extraneous are weeded out and the student doesn't really need to worry about that.
The insight that the faculty had here at Yale is that that's really not ho...
Get to know Rush Medical College [Show summary]
Built on the tenets of community service and community engagement, Rush Medical College strives to graduate empathetic physicians. In this episode, Dr. Cynthia Boyd, Associate Dean for Admissions offers a closer look into the program.
What makes Rush Medical College unique? A flipped-classroom model of learning and an unwavering dedication to community service [Show notes]
Thanks for joining me for the 441st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Will you be ready, next spring, to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Now, let's move to today's interview. I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Cynthia Boyd of Rush Medical College. Dr. Boyd earned her MD at George Washington, where she also did her residency in internal medicine, and later an MBA from Chicago Booth. She joined Rush Medical Center in 1998, and has served in a variety of roles, including Assistant Dean for Minority Affairs, Director of Medical Staff Operations, and Chief Compliance Officer. She moved over to Rush Medical College, full-time, in 2019, and is now the Senior Associate Dean for Diversity and Inclusion, as well as Associate Dean for Admissions and Recruitment. Dr. Boyd, thank you so much for joining me on Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you give us an overview of the Rush Medical College program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:07]
Sure, I'll be speaking primarily about the medical school. At Rush University Medical Center, we have four colleges dedicated to the health sciences: the College of Nursing, Health Sciences, Graduate College, and the Medical College. It has been in existence since about 1837. It was the first medical school established, actually, in Chicago. It is very focused on clinical care, outstanding clinical care, integrating that with education, research, and community partnerships.
We are located on the west side of Chicago, about five miles from the downtown area, the Chicago Loop, as it is called. Our community is a very diverse community, ranging from very wealthy, to the very poor. More recently, our curriculum was changed to become what is described as a flipped classroom, where the students do the learning. The teacher is not in front of them doing didactics, students do the learning, and then they come to class in a group of their peers to share what they've learned, to ask questions. It puts the focus on them as their learners, versus the faculty putting out all of the information. That's changed within the last five years. Probably, one of the newest innovations has been our curriculum.
What does the faculty do in a flipped classroom context? [3:45]
There are specific courses, so to speak, that the students will learn and focus on for anywhere from four to six weeks like gases, nutrition, etc. But they are given readings and articles and videos, and a variety of ways to learn on that topic. Then when they come to class, there is both clinical faculty, as well as basic science faculty, at the same time. So we combine both the normal and the abnormal, in this case, both anatomy for example, as well as pathology, etc.
The students learn on their own, and they interact with each other. It is very important for them to have those oral communication/interpersonal skills to be able to have these discussions. The faculty are there to facilitate that, facilitate the learning, and also to be able to provide individual learning, if that is necessary. But it puts the focus on the student to actually review and learn the concepts.
When I went to medical school, we didn't have that. But when you start seeing patients,
What makes Wharton's MBA program unique, and how to demonstrate to the adcom that YOU belong there [Show summary]
Blair Mannix, Wharton’s Director of Admissions, shares the ways the admissions committee aims to reduce stress in the application process and offer a positive experience. She dispels myths about the Wharton admissions process and offers advice for students seeking acceptance to the MBA program.
From the structure of a TBD to why standardized testing is here to stay: Your guide to the Wharton admissions process [Show notes]
Welcome to the 440th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply for your dream business schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's MBA Admissions Calculator can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz. Complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but tips on how to improve your qualifications and your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk Blair Mannix, Director of Admissions at Wharton. Blair first came to Penn as a graduate student where she earned her Masters in Higher Education Management in 2010. She joined Penn's undergraduate admissions staff in 2008. She's been at Wharton's since 2012 and became Director of Admissions in 2017. She was last on Admissions Straight Talk just under two years ago. And what a two years it's been. Let's catch up on life and admissions at Wharton.
Blair, welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you just start by providing a basic overview of the Wharton MBA program for listeners who may not be that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:56]
Absolutely. It's difficult to put Wharton into five to seven sentences, but I will try. So, Wharton was the first business school in the United States, established in 1881. Wharton's first MBA class was in 1921 so this year it was actually the 100th class that Dean Erika James welcomed in August, which was really, really exciting. It is a perfect bookend in terms of 100 years of classes for me that this year's class is more than 50% women, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But it just feels like this beautiful bow. One hundred years, 50% women. That's great.
What I think makes the Wharton education distinct is that it's very hands-on. It's very practical. It's very tactile. You're never going to look at a problem from 30-feet away. You're going to get right into the guts of it and try to figure it out. And that's what we teach because that's what we believe that businesses need.
We're known for innovation across many disciplines. We are certainly known for finance, and we're really proud of that reputation. 100 years of the best finance education you can get, but we are many other things, and I think that's important for people to understand.
There are two distinguishing centers that I really want to mention: The Stevens Center for Innovation in Finance, which is financial technology and the Harris Center for Alternative Investments, which is VC, hedge funds, and a hub for all of those research projects, corporations, communities, students, and businesses. These are both at Wharton, which is really exciting. I'd love for your listeners to check out the Stevens Center at Wharton or the Harris Center at Wharton.
The last thing I'll say that I think is a differentiator is we're a pretty large program, 864 students, but we really work hard to make sure that it is a robust social experience. Business is a team sport. It's not a solo sport. You have to meet and interact with your classmates, and we stop at nothing to make sure that that happens.
So to summarize, I would say: first in its class, started in 1881, finance, tactile, practical, and then a robust social life as well.
That's great. Thank you. Can I add something? [4:19]
Please.
One of the things that I've been struck with,
Get to know UVA Darden's thoughtful application process [Show summary]
Dawna Clarke, Senior Assistant Dean of Admissions at Darden School of Business explores the program’s unique case method and recounts how the school proactively adapted during COVID-19.
What makes UVA Darden unique? A choice-rich MBA experience and a close-knit student community [Show notes]
Welcome to the 439th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream business schools? Are you competitive at your target program? Accepted’s MBA Admissions Calculator can give you a quick reality check, just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz and you not only get an assessment, but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk Dawna Clarke, Senior Assistant Dean of Admissions at UVA Darden. Dawna is one of the most experienced and respected MBA admission directors I've had the privilege of knowing. She started her career in MBA admissions at UNC Kenan-Flagler, then moved to Darden (which is where we first met) and served for 15 years as director of admissions, and then served in the same role at Tuck and even spent a short period as an MBA admissions consultant. She returned to Darden in 2017. In all her positions and roles in MBA admissions, Dawna is known for running an applicant-friendly admissions process while attracting great candidates to the schools that she has been associated with. Dawna, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk and congratulations again on your new title.
Can we start with a basic overview of the Darden MBA program for listeners who are not that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:18]
Sure, absolutely. I'm happy to give an overview of Darden. Darden is a two-year, full-time, general management program. Assuming we're primarily talking about the full-time format, we do offer other formats as well, but I will focus on the full-time format. I will say one of the most distinctive elements of Darden is that it is primarily a case method school. Over the years, our faculty has revisited the curriculum and asked whether a case method is the most relevant teaching method. To date, since the school was founded in the 1950s, they continue to commit to the case method.
The philosophy is that the best way to learn how to make business decisions is to start making them. At Darden, we're trying to cultivate a variety of skills, leadership skills, team skills -- it's a general management program. So people are going to get accounting skills, financial skills, global skills, but one of the most relevant skills that we're trying to cultivate are strong business decision-making skills. The philosophy is that the best way to start to cultivate those skills is to practice. Students do over 500 cases while they're at Darden. So there's a lot of practice. It's very practical and relevant. One of the benefits of the case method that a lot of people don't know about is that it exposes you to a lot of industries. So for students who are coming to Darden, a lot of people know that they want to transition into a business career, but they may not know what functional area. Through the general management program, you're going to get a lot of exposure to all the functional areas of business like accounting and economics and finance. But because it's a case method school, every case is set within an industry. So in your two years at Darden, a student is going to get exposed to almost 70 different industries. Even if you don't go into energy, knowing a little bit about energy may be really valuable to you if you have a client in the future, who's from the energy industry. You're going to have cases from transportation, hospitality, financial services, consulting, startups, petrochemical companies. I love the phrase, “We don't know what we don't know.”
What makes Chicago Medical School unique, and how to wow its adcom with your application [Show summary]
Dr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School, describes how the school trains students from all backgrounds to be thoughtful and dynamic healthcare leaders. He shares his advice for students looking to pursue medical careers and to be admitted to the program.
What CMS's emphasis on interprofessionalism means for applicants [Show notes]
Before we meet our guest today, I want to invite you to Accepted's next med school admissions webinar, which will actually be a Q&A. The topic - drum roll - is Got Interviews: What if I'm Not Invited to Interview?, a live Q&A where I will be joined by Dr. Herman Gordon, former chair of the University of Arizona medical school's admissions committee, and Dr. Barry Rothman, founder and former director of several postbac programs at San Francisco State. The Q&A is on October 6th, that's tomorrow, at 4:00 PM Pacific/7:00 PM Eastern.
If you haven't received an interview invitation yet, during the Q&A you can share your concerns, and we'll share our suggestions from our collective decades of experience in medical school admissions. Save your seat for free!
Now, let's move on to today's interview. With a focus on interprofessionalism, the Chicago Medical School is one of five graduate schools in healthcare at Rosalind Franklin University of Chicago. It also has one of the larger MD programs in the United States, and I'm delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School. Dr. Ellison earned his doctorate in Educational Leadership from the Roosevelt University of Chicago. He has worked in higher education and specifically in medical school admissions and administration for decades. Dr. Ellison, welcome to Admission Straight Talk.
Can you give us an overview of the Chicago Medical School program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:13]
Well, Chicago Medical School is a commuter based medical school. We serve a variety of patient populations, from those who are from rural communities, urban settings, suburban settings, individuals who may be coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, all the way to those people who may have more privilege and resources. We really want to make sure that we are training physicians who are going to have a broad-based education. Those individuals will have opportunities and experience with treating a wide variety of patient populations and individuals who may be coming from various backgrounds.
Rosalind Franklin seems very focused on interprofessionalism and the stated vision is “To be the premier interprofessional health sciences university.” Could you define or describe interprofessionalism? How does it manifest itself in the medical school curriculum? [3:01]
Well, we realize that to provide the best patient care, it takes a team approach and the physician is one part of the team, but the nurses and the pharmacist and the other health science individuals who are working as a part of that team help to provide the best patient care and to improve those patient outcomes.
A part of what we do here at Chicago Medical School is to incorporate these experiences in what we do as it relates to students from the various programs taking similar classes, working on similar cases. We look at how they would assist each other in those healthcare settings and how important those roles are in helping to improve the outcomes of the patient.
You will see our students interfacing in some of the classes that they take together. You'll see them interfacing in some of the clinical experiences that they have, and you'll also see them interfacing in some of the social and community-based outreach that we do here at the medical school, in the university.
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What can you do before starting business school to set yourself up for a valuable MBA experience? [Show summary]
Bob Manfreda discusses his experience in the Stanford GSB program and shares wisdom from his co-authored blog, MBA Coffee Chats, and book, Coffee Chats: Thoughtful advice on how to get the most out of your MBA.
How coffee chats can help you clarify your career goals, prioritize activities and more [Show notes]
Welcome to the 437th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Before I introduce our guest, I have a question for you: are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's MBA Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mba-quiz, complete the quiz and you'll not only get an assessment but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus it's all free!
I'd like to welcome to Admission Straight Talk Bob Manfreda, Stanford MBA and co-author of Coffee Chats: Thoughtful advice on how to get the most out of your MBA. Bob earned his Bachelor’s in Applied Physics and Chinese at Notre Dame, worked at Deloitte as a consultant, earned his MBA at Stanford as an Arjay Miller Scholar and is now a manager at Deloitte. He is also the Chief Booth Officer for PhotoFox Photo Booth.
My first burning question is, do you like coffee? [1:53]
I do. I made myself an iced coffee for the occasion.
You were at Deloitte before you went to Stanford GSB and you're now again at Deloitte. Did you intend to return to Deloitte after your MBA as you've done? [2:04]
“Intend” might be too strong of a word. I knew it was a strong option, and it was one that I was excited to have. I was sponsored to go to school. I cared to come back, but I also wanted to explore some other careers just because I'd been at Deloitte for four years already. And there was a lot out there. I think I had a little bit of a wanderlust career-wise. So I did some poking around in venture capital, in mid-stage startup and then entrepreneurialism which was a list of three things that I came up with that I thought would allow me to maybe be financially equivalent but still explore something new.
I started working my way through that list. For whatever reason, I never really got a lot of momentum on starting my own thing. I realized after a couple of coffee chats actually that venture capital probably wouldn't be something for me. And I interned at a mid-stage, tech startup and had a great time, but it didn't really work out for my career perspective. There wasn't necessarily a path there. When I got to my second year, Deloitte made the official offer to return, and it felt like the best thing at the time for me.
Has it worked out for you? [3:20]
It has. Deloitte is a good company. They've got great benefits. I'm currently actually on paternity leave. We had our first son, Jackson, who is six months old. My wife works for a company called Snowflake, and they updated their policy to six months so she had a bunch of time off. Anyways, long story short, now I get months 6-10 off with Jackson which I'm really excited about.
Going back to consulting, for me, I think there was the professional benefit of getting to manage people soon and to continue developing some of the core skills. But I think there was also the personal element of it that I knew I'd have that benefit available to me of good paternity leave, and I'd be able to go to where I want to in the country so it was more than just a professional decision.
Let's turn to your Stanford experience. What did you enjoy most while you were a student at Stanford GSB? [4:19]
I think it was the freedom to choose every single day. As I went into school and reflected on life growing up through school, the goal was always me getting better and pursuing an interest. That's the mandate of educational institutions. When I went to the professional world, that was certainly a goal,
Welcome to the 436th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. I'm actually taking a week off for family time this week. As a result, I decided to air an encore of one of our most popular shows of 2021 so far, and that show is, What Life at Icahn Is Like as a Med Student, Parent, and More. I chose it not only because of its popularity, but because it's a fascinating exploration of how a non-traditional student navigates parenthood and medical school.
If you like this episode and want to test out whether you are competitive at your target medical schools, take Accepted's free medical school admissions quiz. It's a brief assessment that will give you insight into your competitiveness, as well as suggestions for improving your qualifications and competitiveness. Take the quiz today!
Thanks as always for listening to Admissions Straight Talk. I'll talk to you again next week. In the meantime, here is What Life at Icahn Is Like as a Med Student, Parent, and More.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related Links:
Get Accepted to Medical School in 2022, an on-demand webinar Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Secondary Application Essay Tips [2020 – 2021]Life as a UCI Med School Student, Wife, and Mom, a student interviewWhat Do the Medical School Admissions Teams Say About Admissions?Accepted's Medical Admissions Consulting
Related Shows:
A Physician’s Nontraditional Path from Law Enforcement to Medical SchoolAccepted to Med School in Mid October: How Did He Do It?How This Premed Student Got Accepted to Medical School EarlyFacing Adversity as a Med School ApplicantAn International Student’s Experience at Harvard Medical SchoolHow This Dell Med Student Is Fighting HungerApply at Your Best: Advice from a Med School Admissions Expert
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Learn how to increase your chances of acceptance to medical school or another health professions school. [Show summary]
Caleb Marsh, Admissions Director of Temple University's CST many postbac programs explores the robust opportunities available to students preparing for medical educations and careers.
How can Temple University's postbac programs help you reach your career goals, and what does the Temple postbac admissions team look for in applicants? [Show notes]
Are you considering a postbac program because your undergraduate grades are not exactly what you'd like them to be? Or perhaps because you lack required courses for the education you need to pursue a career in medicine, dentistry, physical therapy, podiatry, pharmacy, or a physician assistant science? Pull up a chair, our guest today is head of admissions for Temple University's many postbac programs.
Welcome to the 435th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. This podcast is brought to you by Accepted's free guide, The A-Z of Applying to Postbac Programs, which teaches you how to apply effectively to postbac programs. That includes choosing the programs, writing strong personal statements, securing effective letters of recommendation, and more. Grab your copy here.
Our guest today is Caleb Marsh, Admissions Director at Temple University's CST postbac programs. Caleb started his higher ed journey at Baylor University where he earned his Bachelor's of Computer Information Systems and Human Performance, as well as a Master's in Educational Administration. He began working in pre-health advising at Baylor in 2002 and continued at UT Austin and SMU before becoming Admissions Director of Pre-Health Post-Baccalaureate Programs at Temple in 2018.
How did you get so involved in pre-health advising with your background in computer science and human performance? [2:14]
I wanted to actually be a coach when I was in college, and you had to pick a teaching discipline. So, I thought, "Well, I can teach computers. I enjoy computers." But my first job in college was as a student worker in a health professions advising office in which I was introduced to what life as a premed was like, which was very different from the life that I was leading as an undergraduate student. Through it and watching the journey, I just fell in love with working with health professions students and helping them go on and achieve their dreams and goals of going on to things like dental school, medical school and in a sense, being a coach along the way. So, I didn't deviate too far from the coaching aspect of things, just different sports, so to speak.
Can you give an overview of the post-baccalaureate options at Temple University? [3:19]
Sure. So first of all, I'll start with the two primary pathways students can take. One pathway is for students that are career changers. So, students that might have been teachers or lawyers or rabbis - all kinds of professions who decided they wanted to go back to school, pick up their prerequisite courses and go to professional school. We have another pathway that is for students that would like to enhance their academic credentials. These are typically people that were maybe premed as an undergrad, and this is kind of the typical postbac student that most people think of. They want to go to a postbac program to try to improve their science grades as an undergrad. That's kind of the basics, but as you mentioned, we have all these other different and more highly specialized programs within that framework. We help students of course go to medical school, dental programs. We have a pre-dental program, pre-pharmacy, and pre-podiatry tracks as well.
Our three newest tracks are PT, PA, and DMI, which is Diagnostic Medical Imaging. It would be someone who had an undergraduate degree, but wants to go onto a DMI program and needs to just get some remaining pre-reqs and wants to take that pathway on to a DMI program.
Would you like to be a member of Team Fuqua? [Show summary]
Shari Hubert, Associate Dean of Admissions at Duke’s Fuqua School of Business, describes its collaborative MBA program and gives insight into what Duke seeks in applicants.
Duke Fuqua: Where decency meets diversity. [Show notes]
You're interested in Duke’s collaborative MBA program and intrigued by its general management curriculum and the strength of its entering class as revealed by its newest class profile. But, you're also unsure how you can make your case for acceptance. Then pull up a chair. In today's podcast, Fuqua's Dean of Admissions is pulling back the curtain on what Duke seeks in applicants.
Welcome to the 434th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Before I introduce our guest, I have a question for you: are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive? Accepted's MBA admissions calculator can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk Shari Hubert, Associate Dean of Admissions at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business. Shari earned her bachelor's at Dartmouth and her MBA at Harvard. She worked with several lead companies and in 2009 became Director of Recruitment for the Peace Corps. In 2012, she returned to the MBA world when she became the Associate Dean of MBA Admissions for Georgetown McDonough, which I think is around the time that we met. Then she joined Duke Fuqua as Associate Dean of Admissions in October 2017. Shari, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you give an overview of the MBA program at Duke focusing on its rather distinctive structure? [2:21]
Sure. Absolutely. I think our curriculum is a huge asset in helping students really tailor their MBA to their specific needs and interests as they're going through the two year program. The curriculum is designed to allow students to have breadth in terms of the business fundamentals and the leadership components through the core as well as deeper specializations should they be interested with our concentrations. We have 16 concentrations, as well as certificates and our second degree which is the MSTeM, the Master's of Management Studies and Technology Management certificate.
Each of those concentrations and certificates really allows students to customize their experience based on their career interests, or their own personal interests. Our students start their first month in the program, all in a course called the Summer Institute, and we really revamped that last year. It's a hands-on program, three courses that really emphasize how to think through business challenges critically and ethically, how to take ownership of your work, even if you're working for somebody else, and how to find ways to bring common purpose to a team as you're working together.
This particular set of courses really prepares them for the next two years, it's a level setting course. The remainder of the academic year is broken down into four, six-weeks terms. Each term meets twice a week for two hours and 15 minutes. One thing that is unique to us is that we actually don't have classes on Wednesdays as opposed to Fridays like some schools. That really enables our students to stay together over the weekend to create community and to really be connected even more.
Another thing that's unique is the way in which we structure our first-year leadership teams. They're four to five person teams, they are called consequential leadership teams or C-Lead teams for short. And the nice thing is they're actually managed or mentored by second-year students who are selected to be our Center for Leadership & Ethics fellows. So first-year students off the bat get peer mentored and managed by second-year students,
Is your accent in English holding you back professionally? [Show summary]
Esther Bruhl is a speech pathologist and founder of Speak More Clearly, an accent reduction training program for non-native English speakers. In this episode she explains how accents are formed and how new ones can be learned.
Increase your marketability or productivity, by reducing your accent when speaking English [Show notes]
Welcome to the 433rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk.
Before we dive into today's interview, I want to mention a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you're applying to graduate school. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted's free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox At The Heart Of Admissions will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you're well on your way to acceptance. You can download your free guide at accepted.com/fiso, which stands for fitting in, standing out.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Esther Bruhl, a speech pathologist who specializes in accent reduction for non-native English speakers. Esther is also the founder of Speak More Clearly, both the site and the YouTube channel, and I think she's the first guest we have had from down under, also known as Australia.
How did you get into the accent reduction field? [1:58]
I'm a speech and language pathologist. I work with children who have speech and language problems, but I also work with adults who feel they can't be clear. Another speech pathologist and I started doing groups for people face to face in our clinic a long time ago, because in Australia, like in America, there are many people who have second languages. They've come from other places. In fact, in Australia, we have over 400 other languages that other people speak.
So we started this for people who were professionals, working either on the phone or other sorts of professions - lawyers, whatever. And they were feeling not confident and not good about the fact that they couldn't be understood. People had to keep asking them to repeat themselves, et cetera, which is very frustrating actually. And so we started those at a very small level and then more and more people were coming along. She pulled out, she went on to do something else, and I just continued on. The more people we had, then we realized we had to make some courses. We originally just had audio courses, but now we have video and audio, the whole shebang, online. And that's how I started, and I got more and more interested in it as I went along.
I assume at this point you're mostly working with adults, no longer with children, right? [3:57]
Oh no, I still do have a children case load.
What causes accents? [4:09]
Oh, I think this is a great question. When we're very, very young, and we start to learn language, we actually hear all the sounds that there are to make. When we babble, we babble all the sounds. All different sounds, even the ‘cha’ and ‘schm’, and any other sounds that are not in our native languages. And slowly over time, as we're learning our native language or languages, we diminish our auditory acuity for all those other sounds and only focus on the sounds that are in our native language or languages. At the same time, what we're doing is learning to move our mouth in a certain way. We organize our articulators in a certain way to only use those sounds as well, because before when we're babbling, we're saying all sorts of odd sounds that are not in our language.
Slowly that takes over, and we no longer use all those other sounds and therefore we have an American accent in English, or an Australian accent in English, or whatever language we're speaking. That is partly to do with our neurological centers which are our language listening areas. So the language listening areas are very open at that po...
Early patient exposure and the option to pursue research or an additional degree during the program's third year, make Duke University Med School a unique choice for applicants [Show summary]
Dr. Linton Yee, Associate Dean for Admissions at Duke University School of Medicine discusses the program’s integrative learning approach that offers students hands-on training from day one.
Interested in doing research during your time at medical school? Duke University School of Medicine might be the program for you. [Show notes]
How would you like to take the entire didactic portion of medical school in the first year of medical school and spend your third year doing research or pursuing another degree? That's what students at Duke School of Medicine can do. We're going to hear from Duke School of Medicine's Associate Dean of Admissions right now.
Welcome to the 432nd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in.
Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted's Med School Admissions Calculator can give you a quick reality check, just go to Accepted.com/medquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
Our guest today is Dr. Linton Yee, Associate Dean for Admissions at Duke University School of Medicine. Dr. Yee earned his bachelor's and MD at the University of Hawaii. He then did his residency in Pediatrics at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center and a fellowship in Pediatric Emergency Medicine at Children's Hospital in Los Angeles. From 1996 to 2007. He practiced and taught Pediatric Emergency Medicine in Hawaii and California, before taking a position at Duke University as an Associate Professor in the Department of Pediatrics’ Division of Emergency Medicine, and a pediatric emergency room physician. He's also Duke Medical's Associate Dean for Admissions, and it's in that capacity that I have invited him back to Admissions Straight Talk for a show devoted to Duke Medical.
Dr. Yee, can you give an overview of Duke Medical's highly distinctive curriculum? [2:11]
We've had this curriculum in place for a number of years, and the goal is to produce leaders in medicine and also to help the applicant and the student, eventually, understand the link between clinical medicine and research, and how both of these things help to promote, advance, and improve medical practice. Our curriculum is changing right now, and we're putting in new elements in what we call ”patient first.” I think all the applicants and med students out there have to understand that the patient is the center of your universe and everything you do has to be done to improve their well-being. So we're shifting a lot of our thinking now, and actually using the immersion of the med students into the first year, from day one so you're seeing patients from day one. We're then integrating a lot of the biomedical concepts with that. So you'll have early clinical exposure, and you'll have a lot of the foundations within that first year. That first year is still your basic science year, but with a lot of clinical elements integrated in.
The second year is still your clinical year and then the third year is where we actually have you do research or get an advanced degree. That's where you get a chance to choose your own direction and get to pursue your passions. If you think about it, there are very limited opportunities for you to do that within med schools in the United States. So this is really a chance to do what you want to do and to utilize everything that you've done in the past to pursue what you're passionate about and that's kind of how things are set up over here.
If you're having all of your early clinical exposure and also doing the entire didactic portion in your first year (which many medical schools take two years to do) how do you fit it all in? [4:02]
Get to know NYU Stern's top-notch MBA programs, and find out what Stern adcom looks for in applicants [Show summary]
Lisa Rios, NYU Stern’s newly appointed Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions, describes NYU’s innovative MBA program and the COVID adaptations that have been made to elements of the program and its application process.
Interview with Lisa Rios, Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions at NYU Stern [Show notes]
Are you interested in NYU Stern? Well, today we're interviewing the brand new assistant dean of MBA admissions at NYU Stern so tune in.
Welcome to the 431st episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Are you ready to apply to your dream business school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted MBA admissions calculator can give you a quick reality check, just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance -- plus it's all free. Again, use the calculator at accepted.com/mbaquiz, and you can obtain your free assessment right there.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Lisa Rios, Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions at NYU Stern. Lisa has been a member of the admissions team since 2008 and leads admissions for the full-time MBA programs. She has evaluated nearly 50,000 MBA applications and seen nearly 5,000 new full-time MBA students start their MBA journey during her time at Stern.
According to Lisa, the best part of her role is that it does not feel like a job; she loves what she does. The biggest reason for this is the Sternies she works with every day. The second is the fast pace at which Stern innovates and challenges its people, including the admissions team, to ideate, try new things and continue to learn. Lisa also enjoys the travel that is part of her job, at least before COVID, and the chance to explore other cultures that comes along with it. Bombay, London, Istanbul, Tokyo, Toronto, and Beijing, are just a few of her recruiting stops, and the places that she doesn't get to visit in person, especially during the last year, she experiences through applicants’ vivid images and descriptions in their “Pick Six” visual personal expression admissions essays. Lisa, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk and congratulations on your recent promotion to Assistant Dean.
Stern has a pretty impressive menu of MBA options. I think that's part of its innovative nature, can you give an overview of the different options? [2:43]
Absolutely. Thank you for asking. So you're right, Stern does have a large portfolio of MBA program options available to prospective students. It runs the gamut from executive MBA, including a TRIUM program that partners with two schools on the other side of the globe to give a global experience to our students, as well as a part-time MBA program. And the areas that fall under my purview are the full-time MBA programs, which include the two year full-time MBA as well as two focused MBA programs, one in tech and one in fashion and luxury.
Can you give an overview of the full-time program focusing on the more distinctive elements? [3:49]
So the two-year, full-time MBA program is really geared towards helping folks make a transition in their career and helping elevate them to that next phase of their professional life. For some folks it's a career pivot, and then for others, it's folks that are looking to build out a skill set so that they can continue to move up the proverbial ladder, as I'm sure you've seen as you're connecting with prospective students.
The thing that I love about Stern is the experiential components of the program: the fact that the students have the opportunity to put into action what they're learning in the classroom with real problems and providing solutions for real organizations. You'll see this through our experiential learning suite of options.
Are you smart, accomplished, aware and encouraging? Dartmouth Tuck may be the MBA program for you. [Show summary]
Pat Harris and Amy Mitson, co-executive directors of the MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at Dartmouth Tuck, share all about the Tuck experience including its close-knit community, amazing alumni network, and unique location while offering guidance to those seeking to attend.
What the Tuck adcom looks for in applicants, and how to show you've got it [Show notes]
Welcome to the 430th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted's podcast. Thanks for tuning in.
One of the questions applicants sometimes ask is, “Are Accepted's services worth the money?” The answer is a resounding, “Yes!” at least in my opinion. If you're curious as to why that's so, or why I’m convinced it’s true, check out the MBA consultant ROI calculator and find out for yourself how much not teaming with an Accepted consultant could cost you. Use the calculator and you'll see three different scenarios that you can try out.
It gives me great pleasure to have, on Admissions Straight Talk, Pat Harris and Amy Mitson co-executive directors of the MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. Amy joined the Tuck admissions office in 2000. An attorney by education, Pat joined the Tuck MBA admissions office in 2004. Both have assumed increasing responsibilities over the years and became co-executive directors in September, 2020 -- in the midst of the pandemic. I believe I met both of them way back when Tuck hosted a conference for admissions consultants in 2005 and probably had them on our typing-only chats way back when.
Now it's my pleasure to have you both on for the first time. Amy and Pat, Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you give an overview of the full-time program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:36]
Amy: The Tuck program starts with an expanded orientation for students to establish a firm foundation so they can jump into a very rigorous academic experience during their time at Tuck. It was several years ago when we redesigned the orientation program to now be called Tuck Launch and there are several components of that: integrated programming in Tuck Launch, experiential learning, as well as very specific opportunities for reflection.
We believe this sets a stronger foundation as people jump into the core curriculum. The core curriculum at Tuck begins and weaves its way through the first year at Tuck with expanded fall term opportunities and new data analytics courses. We made some changes to the winter term to try to optimize student academics as well as recruiting, and we've gotten some very positive feedback on that. When students head into the spring term of the first-year, a distinct element of the Tuck experience is the first-year project. Many MBA programs will have a capstone project in their first year. The uniqueness of Tuck is that students have total choice of the team that they want to work with and the project that they want to work on. It could be something consulting, non-profit focused, entrepreneurial where you'd present to investors at the end of the project. Sometimes students are working with alumni, local projects, global projects - the sky's the limit. At that particular point in the curriculum, students definitely have the relationships built and have met all of their classmates and start to bring teams together. It’s a great opportunity to apply the skills that students learned throughout the first-year core.
Then heading into the second-year curriculum, it is all elective-based with incredible opportunities for experiential learning, working with faculty in very small scale electives. Or, of course, some of our larger, more popular electives like investments and negotiations, some leadership and communications courses. And the list goes on. The Tuck MBA is also a STEM-designated MBA program.
I am taking off for family time this week. As a result I decided to air an encore of our most popular med podcast so far in 2021, and it is: What Med School Applicants Must Know About Johns Hopkins, my interview with Paul White, Assistant Dean for Admissions at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. It actually took place last fall, but has been very popular this year.
It’s an excellent time for this podcast. Many of you are knee-deep in secondaries, including secondaries for Johns Hopkins. Others are starting to think ahead to next year’s cycle. In either case hearing from one of the most experienced med school admissions directors at one of the top medical schools in the world, can only benefit you if you are applying to medical school.
For those of you thinking ahead to med school interviews or perhaps already having received an interview invitation, I’d like to invite you to Accepted’s next webinar, How to Nail Your Medical School Interviews, to be presented by Cydney Foote, who has been helping med school applicants nail their interviews since 2001. We expect a packed house for the webinar so sign up today!
Whether applying this cycle or next, I hope that you are enjoying a wonderful summer. Thanks for listening to What Med School Applicants Must Know About Johns Hopkins.
For the complete show notes, please check out the original blog post.
Related Links:
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine websiteJohns Hopkins University School of Medicine Secondary Application Essay Tips [2021 – 2022]How to Nail Your Medical School InterviewsThe 5-Part Framework for a Successful Medical School Application, an on-demand webinarSchool-Specific Secondary Application Essay TipsMedical School Admissions Consulting Services
Related Shows:
How to Address COVID-19 and the Events of 2020 in Your ApplicationHow to Get into Kaiser Permanente Medical School – Warning It’s Tough!How To Get Accepted to University of Illinois College of MedicineA Dean’s Perspective on What Makes Great PhysiciansA Medical School Admissions Expert’s Guide to Postbacs and Med Schools
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College admissions tips from a Harvard graduate [Show summary]
Julie Kim shares her journey from growing up as an immigrant daughter to obtaining a Master’s of Education from Harvard to now operating her own college consulting company. She shares her tips for getting into Harvard despite low test scores.
How following a passion for education led Julie from HGSE to admissions consulting [Show notes]
Welcome to the 428th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted’s podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Before we dive into today's interview, I want to mention a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you are applying to graduate school. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target programs and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance. You can download the free guide here.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time, Julie Kim. The daughter of immigrants, Julie admittedly didn't excel in high school. However, using a passion project, she was able to secure acceptance first to USC as an undergrad, and then attended Harvard's Graduate School of Education where she earned her Master's in Education in 2015. She founded Julie Kim Consulting, an undergraduate admission consultancy in 2015 and has grown it ever since. Julie, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
One question that I had right off the bat was, your undergrad degree was in Business Administration and Marketing. Why the pivot to Education for the Master's? Or was that your plan all along? [1:25]
That was my plan all along. As you know, there's not a lot of undergraduate majors that students could take advantage of. At USC in particular, they didn't offer an education major but said they allowed a minor. I thought, well, I want to get into business one day and I feel like this is such an applicable skill set in all industries so that's where I started. Even though I was majoring in business, I continued to participate in education related internships and volunteer work and research.
How did you know that you wanted to do education all along? [2:22]
I always loved teaching. I remember when I was in third grade, I sat my little brother down and I was like, “I'm going to teach you math.” And he was like, “Okay”, because we're only two years apart. So I always loved teaching, and even with my parents, I would always be explaining to them what's going on in the education world and what is the difference between SAT and ACT. I think I was kind of born with this love for education.
You attended USC and majored in Business and Marketing, and then you chose to go to Harvard. Did you take some time off in between, or did you go straight? [3:37]
I took a year off to prepare for the graduate admissions process. So a year later.
How did you prepare for Harvard? [3:57]
Studying for the GRE exams, they're so hard. I was actually at the same time taking another master's program through USC teacher education. I was taking classes at USC and then also studying for GREs and participating in a few research opportunities at USC. Oh, and I was also tutoring on the side to make side income. So just doing a lot of teaching, learning a lot about education during that time.
To what do you attribute your acceptance to Harvard? [4:33]
I really think my passion is what got me into Harvard. Not just saying that I'm passionate about education, but sharing my vulnerable story. I wasn't trying to show Harvard that I knew everything and that I am this perfect person. Instead I really conveyed where I come from as an immigrant daughter and how I didn't have some resources, but I still made it work. And that vulnerability and authenticity, I think that really made the difference because to be honest,
Ace any standardized admissions test, with top-tier academic coaching and effective tools to manage anxiety [Show summary]
Bara Sapir has been providing test prep for over 20 years and is a pioneer in mindful test taking, implementing a holistic approach to the test prep process. She shares her best tips along with her comprehensive approach for success on any test.
Approaching test prep with mindfulness [Show notes]
Welcome to the 427th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, thanks for joining me. Before I introduce our guest for today, I'd like to invite you to take advantage of Accepted’s price rollback. Last year in the midst of the pandemic, Accepted experimented with a price rollback and it was so popular that we are doing it again. Today and tomorrow you can purchase Accepted's outstanding admissions advising and editing at 2017 prices. Just go to accepted.com/services, choose the service that's right for you and save. The rollback prices will only display in the shopping cart, not on the website page, but hurry this special ends at midnight July 21st Pacific time. Then it's back to contemporary times and 2021 pricing.
Our guest today, Bara Sapir, is an internationally recognized expert in high performance coaching and personal empowerment and is a pioneer in mindful test taking and transformative test preparation. She has a BFA from the University of Michigan, a MA in education from the Jewish Theological Seminary, and a MA from the University of Michigan in art history, gender and holocaust studies. Well-resourced and experienced, she has had a 20+ year career in the test prep field with expertise in eliminating test anxiety, managing stress, building confidence and improving each student's journey through the academic terrain. She founded City Test Prep, a hybrid test preparation company providing academic mastery, test taking strategy and techniques in holistic and mindful test taking.
Given your background in the arts and history, how on earth did you get involved in test prep? [2:26]
It started when I was at University of Michigan. I was in the Fine Arts program and felt that I wanted to stay on to really take advantage of the university. I could have either gotten a double major or I could have stayed on to get a Master's degree and be in the PhD program and thought, "Let me apply to PhD programs," but to do that I needed to take a test prep course in order to take the GRE. And I did, I took the Princeton Review and felt like, "Oh, this is really interesting. This is really fun. I can do this too." So I started working for Princeton Review and I saw once I started teaching how the work that I did as an artist, which is so much about being in the zone and being present and really allowing yourself to be just so fully immersed in the now so that you can produce what it is that you're trying to express, was really relevant to students who were learning a lot of the material. So I started to bridge these worlds between the fine arts and being in the zone, and the students I was teaching in test prep.
How do you define mindfulness? What role does mindfulness play in effective test prep? [3:42]
Right, it's a very popular term right now, everyone is talking about mindfulness. Mindfulness is a mental state that is achieved to be in the present moment. It’s a practice of being in the present moment. When you're in the moment, it doesn't negate that there's things that come into your mind. It’s being aware of the things that come into your mind whether it's thinking about what came before or what came after or what your feelings are about whatever it is, whatever bodily sensations that come up. It’s acknowledging that those things come into play, but that at all times you have the practice and presence of acknowledging it but then coming back to the moment. The practice itself allows you to be in the moment even when you're not actually in a mindful meditation.
Are you aiming for an MBA from CMU Tepper? Here's how to make that dream a reality. [Show summary]
Kelly Wilson, Executive Director of Masters Admissions at Carnegie Mellon University's Tepper School of Business discusses Tepper’s MBA programs, which are focused on analytics, leadership and technology advancement.
With full-time, part-time and hybrid options, Tepper offers an MBA program to fit any schedule [Show notes]
Welcome to the 425th episode of Admissions Straight Talk Accepted Podcast. Thanks for tuning in.Are you ready to apply to your dream business schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Acceptance MBA admissions calculator can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mbaquiz, complete the quiz, and you'll not only get an assessment but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it's all free.
It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk Kelly Wilson, who is the Executive Director of Masters Admissions at the Carnegie Mellon University Tepper School of Business. Kelly earned her Bachelor's at Grove City College and three Master's degrees: an MBA from George Mason and a MS and MIS from the University of Pittsburgh Joseph Katz Graduate School of Business.
After working for several years in business, she began her career in admissions at Katz in 1999. In 2008, she became Assistant Dean and Director of MBA Admissions at Georgetown's McDonough School, where she served for four years and which is where I think I first had the pleasure of meeting Kelly. She then returned to Pittsburgh and became Executive Director of Masters Admissions at CMU Tepper, and has been working in that capacity for the last almost nine years. Kelly, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
How many master's programs are you overseeing and what are they? [1:40]
We have our MBA program in three different formats: the Full-Time two-year program, our Part-Time Online Hybrid program, and our Part-Time Flex MBA. In addition, we have the MS in Product Management and then MS in Business Analytics. We will be launching a couple of master’s programs in the near future. So keep an eye out for that information.
What is the difference between the three MBA programs? [2:15]
So the Part-Time Online Hybrid is our online program; there is an in-person component to it which is why it’s hybrid. The way that it works is the part-time students will come to campus about every six and a half, seven weeks between mini semesters where they'll do a weekend together on campus.
The Part-Time Flex was our traditional Pittsburgh-based, part-time program. The really cool thing now is that our part-time students in both programs will spend the first year together in that Part-Time Online Hybrid format, giving flexibility to both groups of students, and then the Part-Time Flex students from the Pittsburgh region can choose to take more traditional evening classes if they'd like, or they can continue on the Online Hybrid format.
Can you give an overview of the CMU Tepper full-time MBA programs, focusing on the more distinctive elements? [3:24]
Absolutely. It’s hard not to bring in the part-time options when we're talking about the full-time program, because in fact they are the same MBA taught by the same faculty. And one of the few MBA programs that allow students to transfer between programs after year one.
For our MBAs, what really sets Tepper apart is the combination of leadership development and analytics skills that the students get in the program. If we first talk about analytics within the core of our program, which is a fairly robust core, you will see that in addition to the typical business classes, we've got three specific classes that focus on developing those analytical skills.
It's a probability and statistics course and optimization course, and a statistical decision-making course where students will learn optimization, modeling skills,
Want to learn more about Kaiser Permanente's highly competitive tuition-free and lecture-free medical school program? [Show summary]
Dr. Willies-Jacobo describes the foundational values that are woven into the culture at Kaiser Permanente School of Medicine which accepted its first class in the midst of the pandemic. She also shares the challenges and adaptations that have come as a result of establishing a new program during the tumultuous past year.
KP Tyson: A unique medical school with a dedication to social equity and an emphasis on small group learning [Show notes]
Our guest today is Dr. Lindia Willies-Jacobo, Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Equity, Inclusion, and Diversity at the Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine, which welcomed its first class in the summer of 2020 and in the midst of the pandemic. While the Kaiser Permanente School of Medicine may be new, Dr. Willies-Jacobo is not at all new to the field of Med School Admissions.
She earned her MD at UCSD and served as a professor of pediatrics from 1992-2019. For 22 of those years, she was also the Assistant Dean for Diversity and Community Partnerships and Director of the program in Medical Education, Health, and Equity.
Can you give us an overview of the Kaiser Medical School curriculum, focusing on the more distinctive elements? [1:55]
Absolutely, happy to do that. We just welcomed our inaugural class a year ago, last July, in the midst of a pandemic. We certainly did not anticipate that, but I think in terms of some unique features of the school, I think perhaps the most distinct one would be that we are a non-lecture based school. So we perhaps are, if not one of the only ones, the only school whereby all of our learning takes place in small groups of eight. Because we welcomed 50 students, there is one group of 10 students. So it is non-lecture-based, problem-based learning. It's all integrated. As prospective students may have read, we've decided not to go with the sort of typical departments as there are at many schools. But instead, we have three pillars, our Department of Biomedical Science, our Department of Clinical Science, and our Department of Health System Science. So all learning is integrated across all three pillars.
The other couple of distinct features about our school is that we were really built on kind of the foundational principles of equity, inclusion and diversity, which means that it is fully baked into the fabric of the school. We also are teaching anatomy in somewhat of a future facing forward thinking way. We are not using, the students will not be or have not been, dissecting cadavers, but instead we're leveraging technology so that anatomy is being taught by way of augmented and virtual reality. And then I'll just close by saying that our school has curricularized well-being. So we have a pretty significant and robust well-being curriculum. It's called REACH, which stands for Reflection, Education, Assessment, Coaching, and Health and Wellbeing. So every medical student is actually paired with a physician coach, who is helping them along their journey in terms of developing their professional identity. So those are a couple distinct areas.
In preparing for the call, I saw the three pillars. I also saw that there are four threads woven throughout the curriculum. According to the website, they were Equity, Inclusion, and Diversity; Health Promotion; Interprofessional Collaboration; and Leadership. Can you kind of unpack that? And I know you said that the three pillars are throughout the four years, how do the threads and the pillars come together? [4:20]
What we have done – and they really are threads, meaning that it is threaded across all four years – it's also threaded across our three pillars that we've just described. So the equity, inclusion, and diversity thread, for example, that's where students come together in somewhat of a didactic seminar, style,
All about the University of Illinois College of Medicine's admissions process [Show summary]
During this episode, Dr. Leila Amiri who is the University of Illinois College of Medicine's Assistant Dean of Admissions and Recruitment, not only dissects the UI COM admissions process but also provides a wonderful and experienced perspective on the overall medical school application process.
Do your goals align with the mission of the University of Illinois College of Medicine? [Show notes]
Welcome to the 423rd episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Before we meet our guest I want to invite you to attend this next med school admissions webinar: How To Create Successful Secondary Applications. It's a free webinar which I will present on July 8th, 2021. Secondary applications are going to flood your calendar and consciousness in the weeks ahead and maybe even have already started doing so. You have to turn them around quickly and effectively, but how? We've got you covered. Register for How To Create Successful Secondary Applications for free.
And now a little information about our guest today. Dr. Leila Amiri joined the University of Illinois College of Medicine team in 2017. As Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment she oversees admissions and recruitment for all three campuses of the College of Medicine. She is a passionate advocate for holistic review and admissions and provides strong support for students striving to achieve their academic and professional goals.
Dr. Amiri has spent her career in higher education, starting as a peer advisor in the biology department. Over this time she has worked with a variety of students at seven different institutions as an advisor, faculty member, administrator, and mentor.
In the medical education arena she has engaged in leadership at the national level serving as a liaison for the committee on admissions for the Association of American Medical Colleges, AKA the AAMC, and as an AAMC holistic review facilitator working with other medical schools admissions committees on how to include holistic review in their process. She is currently serving as the vice chair for the BA/MD Affiliate Group.
Dr. Amiri, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.
Can you give us, to start, just a basic overview of the UI School of Medicine program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:15]
Absolutely, we're one of the larger medical schools in the country. We admit 300 students every year to three different campuses. We're very mission driven in that the mission is to advance health for everyone with outstanding education, outreach, healthcare, research, and really with a focus of social justice and social responsibility at the core of what we do.
What I really appreciate about our program is that we are so diverse, not only in the student body and the faculty, but also the programming that we offer. So we're able to offer, for example, urban focused healthcare programs all the way up to rural medicine focused programs.
What's a common misconception about the University of Illinois College of Medicine that you would like to dispel? [3:03]
I think because we are a multi-campus school I think sometimes students feel that the educational programming may be different on the different campuses. Once we implemented our new curriculum in 2017, we actually have standalone four-year medical programs on each of our sites with live instruction and curriculum that's delivered simultaneously and assessed simultaneously.
Now, the feel of the curriculum will be a little different, obviously, because they're in different locations, but the educational experience is very similar. And the other thing that I want to point out is that we don't have a specific type of student that we're looking for. Because we are old and because we are big we like to welcome students to join us with whatever passions they have,
What factors should you consider when deciding how to prepare for the MCAT? [Show summary]
Our guest today has been providing MCAT prep for just under 30 years and he's going to share his best MCAT prep advice with you!
The Berkeley Review’s CEO, Todd Bennett, shares his best MCAT prep advice [Show notes]
Our guest today is Todd Bennett, whom I met many, many years ago. He is the CEO of and an MCAT instructor at The Berkeley Review, which he co-founded in 1992. Todd, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk!
How did you get involved in MCAT prep many moons ago? [1:22]
So much of life is serendipity. So, way back in 1988, I had a job teaching organic chemistry as an adjunct lecturer at UC Irvine. And one summer there was nothing to teach and realizing that, hey, I need money for rent, I went to the job listing on campus. And there was an interesting offer tutoring chemistry and physics to postbac students trying to get into med school, a bridge program through Dave Hacker and Charles Gipson. I signed up for it and fell in love with it - greatest teaching job in the world; motivated students, smart, dedicated, and best of all from a teaching standpoint, no grading. You were purely on their side in working their way through it. So that summer I wrote up notes and practice questions and put together a pretty good booklet, and without even noticing it, it became kind of an underground sensation around UC Irvine and then Southern California. And somebody in San Diego got wind of it, who ran an SAT company and said, "Hey, what do you think about doing MCAT?"
And so, we started something called Hyper Learning at the time. It ends up that the people I was with, honestly, I don't think one of them had any interest other than making a quick company, selling it, another quick company, and selling it. And so, it was on the selling block immediately and I thought, "No, no, I like what I'm doing. I don't want to switch." And so in 1992 we started The Berkeley Review, grabbed one of the bio teachers, a physics teacher I knew, and just went for it. Amazingly, it just shot off like wildfire. I mean, at the time it was just really needed.
Do you want to bring us up to date a little bit in terms of what's been happening with The Berkeley Review? [3:03]
We change with each test. So since we started, there've been three changes in the test, and each one's brought a new challenge. I mean, I know this is probably blasphemous to say, because it's stressful for a lot of people, but the MCATs are a really well-written and well thought-out test. You can reason your way through it, and it really does test pertinent skills in analyzing data material and getting you to work well with things you maybe don't familiarize with at first. And in time you realize, "Hey, I get this. This is simple.”
We continue to do classes. COVID forced us to go online. We were very antiquated for many years and got up to speed, and I realized our fear of going online had a lot to do with losing the personal touch. Knowing each person individually has been key.
And one of the biggest godsends of going online that I never thought of in a million years, it caters to the shy student. The student can now type in a question in a private chat. I have one particular student in mind who, when we were live up until last March 2020, she never asked a question in class. She'd come up after class, wait until everybody left and she'd ask a few questions. All of a sudden in the chatbox, she was typing like a stenographer. It was awesome. She came out of her shell, and I realized this is a great medium for certain students and so, I've fallen in love with online teaching. A year and a half ago, if you were to ask me, I would have never, ever thought that would happen, so it's kind of where we're at today.
And basically at this point then, anybody anywhere in the United States to be sure, and maybe even in the world, could take a class from The Berkeley Review,
How to Respond to a Rejection [Show summary]
Admissions guru Linda Abraham highlights four reasons that could cause a rejection and offers concrete, practical suggestions for moving forward.
How to Respond to a Rejection [Show notes]
Some of you are unfortunately facing a fistful of dings at the moment. Some of you haven't heard definitively. You are either in waitlist limbo, or just waiting to hear an answer, any answer, to your applications this year. But you know that rejection is still a distinct possibility. How can you respond to rejection? How should you respond to rejection?
Normally I like to be positive and upbeat, and I will get positive and upbeat a little later, but of course, rejection is something that applicants have to deal with. And it isn’t positive or upbeat. And therefore I want to deal with it in this podcast.
But before we get to the main topic, I want to mention that one of the challenges of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to Accepted. Download the free guide.
Today's podcast episode is a solo show, and I’m going to give a little high-level encouragement and then get down to brass tacks advice on what you should do as you approach re-application if you choose to reapply.
Rejection reality [2:16]
Let's face it, I'm not Pollyanna: Rejection is disappointing. It's frustrating. Maybe a little embarrassing, because you told people you were applying.
Acknowledge those negative feelings, but don't wallow in them. Acknowledge them. You put a lot of effort into this year's application, you spent money, you invested time, you invested emotionally in this endeavor and you're disappointed. What can I tell you? It's legitimate. Some of you may feel that this is the end of the road for your particular career dream. Maybe you've applied before, maybe you find rejection to be a terrible blow.
Realize that rejection is disappointing. There's no question about it. Perfectly legitimate to feel that way. It is a setback but it is not a tragedy. No one has died, no blood has been spilled, no limbs have been lost, you haven't lost your livelihood or anything close to it.
What about my dreams and goals? [3:12]
You might respond to me and say, "But what about my dreams, my goals?!?!" I have two thoughts for you on that.
You may not need to give up your dreams and goals. You may decide to reapply. We'll get into that and how to do that effectively later on in the podcast. You may apply to different schools or programs that are easier to get into, and that still support your goal. You may decide to achieve your goals in another way that doesn't require a graduate degree. Or the second thought is, you may need to modify your dreams and goals and replace them with new dreams. In other words, re-dream, instead of reapply. I can tell you that there have been many times when my husband and I seemingly hit a dead end on a dream and had to re-dream, we adjusted. And you know what happened? Things worked out better than we had ever hoped with our original dream.
For an example of an applicant who had to dream differently, please check out accepted.com/234 for the story of Andrea Benedict who had to abandon her dream of becoming a physician to become a PA instead, and absolutely loves her work and her career.
Let's say you acknowledge that you're rejected, there's no question about it. What should you do? Give yourself an hour or two, maybe even a day or two, to be down and then move on. In fact, pat yourself on the back, for your effort and initiative and applying in the first place. You tried to improve your skills through education, you tried to move forward, you tried to grow and improve. That effort deserves to be acknowledged and praised and...
What every applicant to Georgetown McDonough should know [Show summary]
Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean of MBA Admissions at Georgetown McDonough, explores what’s new with the school’s full-time and flex MBA programs and how applicants can stand out to the admissions committee.
Make your application to Georgetown McDonough shine! [Show notes]
Interested in an MBA focused on international business with rigorous academics and a supportive collaborative culture? Pull up a chair. Today's guest is the Dean of Admissions at Georgetown McDonough's MBA program, and it fits your bill perfectly.
Shelly Heinrich is Associate Dean of MBA Admissions and Director of Marketing at Georgetown's McDonough School of Business. Shelly has been leading Georgetown's admissions efforts since 2014 and became Associate Dean in 2017. She earned her BBA from Texas Christian University, her master's in educational administration from UT Austin, and her executive MBA from Georgetown McDonough.
Can you give us an overview of Georgetown's full-time and flex MBA programs for those listeners who aren't that familiar with these programs, and focus on their more distinctive elements? [2:13]
The great thing about our full-time and flex program is that they are both 54-credit degrees, and they both follow the same exact curriculum. You have the same access to the career center, which is unique sometimes for a part-time MBA, the same access to professors and the global consulting experience. The real difference is the timing and the format. The full-time MBA is a standard full-time MBA. It's 20 months with an internship the summer between year one and year two. Our flex MBA program, you can complete in two and a half to five years, really crafting your own schedule. If you want to take two to three classes at a time, you can speed it up. If you want to stretch it out, taking maybe one or two classes at a time, you can do that as well. With the flex MBA, you also have different course delivery options in order to make it more flexible. You can choose between electives that are on Saturday, that are in the evening, that are hybrid and also do more of our intensive learning experiences, the intense one-week electives to get an entire credit knocked out. You do have a little bit more flexibility. But in general, both are standard MBAs and when you graduate, your degree says “MBA.”
What's new at McDonough, other than the pandemic and the new reality that we're all dealing with? [3:35]
What I love so much about Georgetown and our Dean Almeida is his energy. Even while we were dealing with the pandemic, we were still continuing to forge ahead and launch the new initiatives that we had wanted to launch and then even launch some new ones. We launched in December our MBA advanced access program, which is our deferral program. We launched an MBA mentorship program, which is a mentorship program between alumni and MBA students to get professional mentorship and guidance. Our students launched a McDonough Talks podcast to give you the real story of what it's like to be a student.
Then, because of the pandemic, we launched operation cura personalis. We have the academics, you have the career, and then you have the community aspect of an MBA. Operation cura personalis is true to our Jesuit roots and focuses on cura personalis, which is “care of the whole person,” and looks at programming that we could bring to our students to develop the mind, body, and spirit. What is it that makes you a successful leader? Yes, it's functional intelligence and certainly career aspiration and motivation, but you also have to have the rest of yourself that you develop as a leader so that you can be an effective leader of your team. A lot's been launched over the last year, which is really exciting and just one of the great things I love about McDonough.
What are some of the elements of cura personalis? [5:05]
We realized shortly after a few months into the pande...
Words of advice for premeds and medical school applicants [Show summary]
Dr. Sunny Nakae discusses CUSM’s approach to training the next generation of great physicians and shares wisdom from her book, Premed Prep: Advice from a Medical School Admissions Dean.
Are you curious about CUSM? Read on for info about this new program and for valuable tips for all medical school applicants [Show notes]
How do you prepare to become a physician? How do you prepare to apply to medical school? Our guest has written the book on the topic, after two decades in medical school admissions.
Today's guest, Dr. Sunny Nakae, is the Senior Associate Dean for Equity, Inclusion, Diversity, and Community Partnerships at the California University of Science and Medicine School of Medicine, one of the country's newer medical schools. Dr. Nakae earned her bachelor's and MSW from the University of Utah, and then her PhD in higher ed at Loyola University of Chicago. She started working in medical school admissions in 2006 as Director of Diversity at Northwestern's Feinberg School of Medicine, moved to Loyola Stritch for six years as Assistant Dean for Admissions, Recruitment, and Student Life, and then another two years at UC Riverside, again as Associate Dean, and then last year joined CUSM as Senior Associate Dean for Equity, Inclusion, Diversity, and Community Partnerships. All that experience is reason enough to invite her to Admissions Straight Talk. However, I also want to discuss her fantastic book, Premed Prep: Advice from a Medical School Admissions Dean.
Can you give us an overview of the CUSM MD program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:18]
California University of Science and Medicine School of Medicine is a community-based medical school. That means that we are really focused on training in a lot of different sites. We're focused on primary care. Our main affiliation is Arrowhead Regional, but we also have sites at St. Bernadine's and other places. We're in inland Southern California, so about 90 minutes/a little under two hours from the coast. It's a very underserved and economically divested region of California, so our goal is to produce more physicians that want to train in our region, and stay in our region, and take care of the people that live here. We have early clinical experiences, where students are placed with preceptors and clinics, outpatient settings, so they get very comfortable with outpatient and preventative care and ongoing clinical home settings.
Another distinctive element that we're developing is we've recently changed our service learning into something called Change. Students will have a similar placement with a community partner that they do on the clinical side through the Care program. Care and Change together are going to create this opportunity for students to actually learn about structural determinants of health, and what our director calls health adjacent services. It's a way for us to give back as a school, which is important for us. We want to make a departure from the typical pedagogical models that use a colonialist approach of, "We're going to come in and do what we want on our terms, and demand certain things of you, and impose our learning objectives on you, and then go away. And then a new group of students is going to come in and do the same thing.”
The students are going to be put into college groups and be assigned to a community partner. Let's pretend it’s Harm Reduction in southern California. They're going to work with this community partner or nonprofit organization or educational group. The student's job is to learn about what the community partner's goals are, what their strengths are, how they can actually leverage the talents and gifts they bring to the school as students to actually help our partners achieve their goals. The learning is real learning, the contributions are real contributions, and we're really helping. That's why we call it Change,
How can an MBA degree help an entrepreneur? [Show summary]
Entrepreneur and Harvard Business School grad Ben Faw reflects on the value of his MBA and the role it played in his successful career.
Why this serial entrepreneur feels his time at HBS was invaluable [Show notes]
What happens to Harvard Business School MBAs after their first job? Do they still value the HBS MBA experience? Let's ask Ben Faw, who was a member of the HBS MBA class of 2014.
Ben Faw was previously a guest on Admissions Straight Talk way back in Episode 59, just about seven years ago. At that time, Ben had just graduated from HBS and was about to take a position with LinkedIn. Prior to attending HBS, Ben attended West Point as well as the US Army Ranger School, and served in Hawaii, Iraq, and Kuwait. What's happened since graduating from HBS? Let's find out from Ben.
When we last spoke, you were about to graduate from Harvard Business School and start a position at LinkedIn. What's happened since then? Bring us up to date. [1:53]
It's been a really interesting and exhilarating journey. There's been a couple of twists and turns. But to start with, LinkedIn was a super positive experience for me. I was able to get a lot of understanding around particularly technology and the digital advertising ecosystem and just a ton of exposure to what a top organization in the technology field can look like, and particularly what it takes to maintain a strong positive culture. As you know, none of these cultures come for free. They’re something you build and then have to maintain, and you’ve got to see all of that.
Then, I had worked with a classmate of mine from business school on a startup project that got to the point where I could actually join full-time in the fall of 2015, about a year and a half after business school. That company, BestReviews, ended up growing quickly. We sold that in early 2018 to Tribune Publishing, which has published the Chicago Tribune and several other newspapers, for over a hundred million. I was fortunate enough to be able to help a lot with that integration, got a little bit of knowledge around the newspaper world, and transitioned to an advisory role there.
I have built out a new software company called AdVon Commerce, leveraging a lot of the insights and perspectives from working in that e-commerce and digital marketing world. I got married at the very end of 2019, which proved fortuitous given the situation that unfolded in 2020.
Do you feel like you're still using your MBA degree, either the network or the education, looking back on the experience? [3:54]
I personally believe, and the data would prove it out, that I use almost every aspect of the MBA every single day of the week. And that includes Saturday and Sunday. I don't always work all of those days, but for me, it's the network that is used almost every single day for me, certainly multiple days per week in one capacity or another directly, and then indirectly in the lessons and insights from the network every day. The skills and perspectives are an everyday occurrence for me. Whether it be thinking about the strategy, the financials, the marketing, each aspect is something that, at least from my work, has been a daily activity. I couldn't be more grateful. And I frankly don't think I would have had the same level of success or accomplishments without the training, the network, and also the confidence that Harvard Business School and the MBA experience gave to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx4KzuvBUb8
Do you think the case method was a significant ingredient in that value proposition? [5:03]
I think in my own case it was, just because I learned well through that method. For me, it provided a way to truly see this in action, in an actual scenario. One thing I did was I actually wrote a small journal entry every day while at business school on what I took away from the cases. That process of preparing for a case,
Achieving balance: A resident's advice for succeeding in medical school without sacrificing your personal life [Show summary]
Dr. Wendell Cole, a Morehouse graduate and orthopedic surgical resident at Tulane, shares the personal experiences and med school survival strategies that led him to write The Med School Survival Kit.
How planning and time management pave the way towards greater academic success and personal fulfillment [Show notes]
Have you been accepted to medical school this cycle? Congratulations! Are you still hoping to be accepted this cycle? Are you planning ahead for next cycle? Today's guest is going to discuss his path in med school, as well as how you can excel in medical school while enjoying the experience.
Dr. Wendell Cole graduated with a degree in biology and medical virology from Georgia State University in 2014. He attended Morehouse School of Medicine and graduated in 2018, at the age of 24. He has been an orthopedic surgical resident at Tulane University School of Medicine and will complete his residency in 2023. He published The Med School Survival Kit: How To Breeze Through Med School While Crushing Your Exams in 2018 as he graduated med school.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? [2:03]
I am a first generation son of immigrants. My mom and my father are both from the Caribbean. They immigrated here in the '90s or '80s and had me. I was born in New York, and I moved around a lot, and I ended up spending most of my time in Georgia. Marietta, Georgia is where I spent most of my time. Then Atlanta, Georgia is where I spent the majority of undergrad and med school. Most of my life has been in Georgia.
Growing up, nobody really did medicine before me. There weren't any other doctors or anything else like that in the family. I liked sports a lot growing up, and I started playing sports in high school. I played football, and I ran track. Another thing that I started enjoying in high school was actually a TV show called House. They have a lot of different seasons, but it's an intriguing show on medicine. That combination of the two piqued my interest in medicine. I always liked science stuff, and I always liked sports. I thought, well, what's something I can do to combine the two? So I went through undergrad thinking I was going to do something sciency, but again, I watched House all the time, so I can say that heavily influenced me going towards the field of medicine, like sports. That brought me towards orthopedics. I kind of knew it was something I wanted to do.
I also injured myself and had to have surgery when I was in college as well, so it wasn't just House. I had personal injuries. When I was in college, I actually tore my ACL just horsing around, not even doing a professional sport. The thing that took me with that is that beforehand, I expressed my emotions by working out. I wasn't able to work out, so I felt a part of me was missing, I guess, for a lack of better terms. Long story short, I ended up getting an ACL reconstructed, being able to run again, do sports. That kind of birthed my interest and gave me that form of self-expression back. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to do orthopedics.
What was the hardest part of the medical school application process for you? [4:42]
It was trying to figure out where to apply to. I went to Georgia State University and for many years, I didn't know that we had a pre-med program per se or pre-med committee that can help you choose places to go and apply to. For the most part, I was just doing it on my own, not having had anybody in my family that was in medicine or anything. A lot of it was Googling and searching for different places where to apply to, asking, where do I get my letters of recommendation? Who do I ask? What are they looking for? Those were the big things, trying to figure out where to apply to, and then how you put together a pre-med kit.
Discover INSEAD's unique one-year MBA [Show summary]
Virginie Fougea, Global Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at INSEAD, shares what’s new for the school’s MBA program and what prospective applicants with global business ambitions should know.
Do you aspire to do business internationally? Consider INSEAD! [Show notes]
Are you a citizen of the world? Do you aspire to be one? Do you have global business ambitions? Then you should be interested in the business school for the world, INSEAD. Its Global Director of Admissions and Financial Aid, Virginie Fougea, is our guest today.
Can you give an overview of the INSEAD MBA program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:29]
INSEAD was started in 1960. We welcomed our first class around those years. Since the very beginning, we have had very international classes. We have a number of Europeans represented, but also people from outside Europe. Now we have, for example, 92 different nationalities in the current classes, so that is definitely in the DNA of the school. We have a campus in Fontainebleau in France, which is 60 kilometers south of Paris, as well as the campus in Singapore. We have a hub in San Francisco, that is the newest one, and we also have a campus in Abu Dhabi. The idea was to allow people to be on the ground, and not just talk about how to do business in Asia without having put a foot in the continent.
We have an MBA, MiM (Master in Management), Executive MBA, and Executive Master in Finance. For the MBA, we welcome two classes. One in September that starts in the end of August/beginning of September, and one starts in January every year. We welcome roughly 500 students, total per class, with 300 in Fontainebleau and 200 in Singapore.
It used to be really easy for students to move among the campuses, and most students did not attend the entire program in one campus. How have COVID travel restrictions affected that? [3:14]
It did affect some people during their studies. Those who were in the 2020 classes last year, obviously all the borders were closed and you couldn't reorganize your plans. Those people obviously had to stay on the location where they were. However, quite a number of people decided, when the countries were closing down their borders, to go back home. We had a few people doing that. Others decided to stay in Fontainebleau or in Singapore and keep sharing their apartments with their roommates. To be very honest, now with the quarantine and the fact that the countries have reorganized the travel and the possibility to enter the different countries, we are able to have all our students in person on both our campuses in Fontainebleau and Singapore. For example, we just had the Master in Management students who just all went to Singapore all together. They spent the first part of the program in France, in Fontainebleau, and they all moved -- the 90 of them moved -- to Singapore for the rest of their program as planned. That's the idea with the MiM is that they stay together. Obviously they had to plan the quarantine, and we facilitated all the visas and made sure that everyone could join.
What don't people know about INSEAD that you would like them to know? What's a common misconception? [5:11]
The first one I hear when I speak with prospective applicants is, "Do I absolutely need a 700 GMAT?" My answer is always, "Well, if you want one, a 700 GMAT for yourself, then go for it." But if it's just purely for INSEAD, maybe a 700 is fine, but maybe you want us all to be realistic. What is the score that will make you happy and that will make you feel, “I did well,” because not everyone is comfortable taking a standardized test. Not everyone is good at math, and not everyone is a native English speaker and can fully read and write in English. Depending on all this, we are happy with any score that is more or less above or somewhere close to 600.
What is Duke's physician assistant program looking for in applicants? [Show summary]
April Stouder, Associate Program Director and Chair of the Admissions Committee for Duke’s PA program, explores what’s unique about this top-ranked program and what applicants can do to be competitive.
A focus on primary care makes Duke's PA program unique [Show notes]
Are you preparing to become a PA, or even just considering the field? Are you wondering how to apply successfully? Our guest today is the Associate Program Director at the first US PA program, and she's going to tell you all about it.
April Stouder earned her bachelor's at Manchester College and her master's of Health Science in Duke University's PA program in 2000. From 2002 to 2012, she worked as a PA at Duke. From 2012 to 2018, she was Director of Clinical Education at Duke, and she has served as Associate Program Director and Chair of the Admissions Committee since June 2018.
Can you give us an overview of the Duke PA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:53]
Most PA programs are two years in length, and ours is no different. Perhaps what distinguishes us a little bit is our primary care-focused mission. Not every PA program is distinctly focused on primary care, but that is a big part of our mission, training primary care PAs. We are one of the programs that's been around the longest. We were the first, established in 1965. We had a class of four graduates in 1967, and then the profession took off from there. That's part of our proud history and always something that we like to bring up, but we're definitely not a program that rests on our historic laurels; we're definitely a program that likes to evolve and improve along the way.
We are one of the larger programs in the country. We have 90 students per cohort, a total of 180 students at any given time, and approximately 40 faculty and staff. As my program director always says, we're like a giant cruise ship, a big vessel in the ocean chugging along. We're a big program, and that does distinguish us from a lot of programs out there. We're also housed at an academic medical center. There are other programs at academic medical centers, but that does distinguish us from some of the programs out there as well.
The curriculum includes one year of didactic instruction and one year of clinical. Is that pretty typical for all PA programs? [3:08]
That is pretty typical. There's a few programs out there that are a little bit longer in length; maybe they’ll start someone in their junior or senior year of college, and then they go straight into the PA program. But the more typical thing now, because the terminal degree is the master's degree, is that most folks have finished their bachelor's studies and then come to PA school as a graduate program, which is two years in length.
How has COVID affected the Duke PA program, both the didactic portion and the clinical portions? [3:45]
COVID really did a number on medical education across the country, and we were certainly no exception to that. In the spring of last year, we had students out on their clinical rotations, and we had a first year cohort of students that were used to coming into the classroom, into our labs, every day. In roughly the beginning of April, we had to pull students off of their clinical rotations. The community at large was dealing with an influx of sick patients, and so we did that for the protection of students and also just to spare personal protective equipment that had to be prioritized for practicing healthcare professionals.
Our second year students came off rotations, and we kind of hit the pause button as we quickly figured out, what we could do to help them continue to move through the program. We created several virtual electives that they could participate in, focusing on things like public health, leadership, and getting extra training on substance abuse disorders.
Everything you need to know to about the latest incarnation of the LSAT [Show summary]
LSAT prep expert Steve Schwartz returns to the Admissions Straight Talk to discuss the demise of the LSAT-Flex, the future of the LSAT, and essential test prep tips for law school applicants.
How to prep right and crush the LSAT! [Show notes]
LSAC recently announced new test dates, the demise of LSAT-Flex, and the return of the LSAT, but remotely. Let's get the low-down from LSAT expert Steve Schwartz of LSAT Unplugged.
Steve Schwartz, of the LSAT blog and the LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channels, graduated from Columbia University in 2008. In high school and college, he tutored students in a variety of subjects and also helped prep test-takers for standardized tests, including the LSAT. However, he really began to focus on the LSAT when he was applying to law school. He founded the LSAT Blog in 2008 and never looked back. Today, 13 years later, he has helped thousands master the LSAT, get into law school, and secure scholarships worth thousands of dollars.
We spoke almost exactly one year ago when the LSAT-Flex was new. COVID-19 was new. At the time we discussed the new and remote LSAT-Flex. Today, we're going to discuss the demise of the LSAT-Flex. What gives? [2:02]
The Flex was always meant to be temporary. That's why LSAC gave it the Flex name to distinguish it from the normal regular LSAT. But here we are, one year later, COVID-19 is unfortunately still with us to some extent, although hopefully things will be looking better later this year with the vaccine rollouts and such. But they can't keep administering the LSAT without experimental sections. They've got to be able to test out future questions. So starting in August this year, they're adding back in an experimental section, and they're going to start calling it just the LSAT again.
How is the LSAT going to be different from the LSAT-Flex, given that they are both remotely proctored exams? [2:55]
It's a very, very small difference. I don't want people to get overly stressed about it. It's still the same question types, the same difficulty level. You're going to have logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension like before. It'll still be the same length of 35 minutes per section, but the overall test sitting will be longer by adding back in that fourth, unscored, experimental section. They'll also insert a break between the second and third sections. So the length gets a little bit longer: a 10 minute break, plus another 35 minutes for that fourth section. So test-takers are looking at roughly a 45-minute longer exam, but as you said, it'll still be online.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBvTgPYsnG4
Are there any in-person testing centers planned for those who prefer that? [3:46]
Not currently. At the moment, I don't think that we'll see any for quite a while, but LSAC indicates they're open to the possibility, although they still will keep the online option, we're expecting. They've said it'll be online through at least June, 2022. But this is still much shorter than the pre-COVID LSAT, which had five sections: four scored, one unscored experimental. The LSAT, for the foreseeable future, will have three scored sections plus one unscored experimental section.
With the GMAT, you have an option to take it in-person or remotely. MCAT, the medical aptitude test, is entirely in-person. The LSAT is entirely remote. So each one has a different approach? [4:25]
Yeah. There are so many logistical things for them to deal with that I can understand. On the one hand, I think it's nice to give people options. On the other hand, it's a lot of work to offer it in multiple contexts, and in-person. If I understand correctly, the GRE is virtually every day. The LSAT’s not even every month. It's almost every month, so they don't have that same level of regularity. Things are kind of ad hoc each time they're doing it.
Do you fit with USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry?[Show summary]
Dr. Anita Tourah, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs at Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC, offers an inside look at the dental student experience and admissions process.
How an emphasis on research, education and patient care makes USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry unique [Show notes]
Are you thinking of a career in dentistry? Worried about how to get in? Wondering what a dental education requires before you earn that DDS? My guest today is the Dean of Admissions at a top dental school.
Dr. Anita Tourah is Associate Professor of Clinical Dentistry and Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs at the Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC. She earned her bachelor's degree in chemical engineering at Tehran Azad University and earned her DDS from Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry, as well as a special certificate in prosthodontics.
Can you give me an overview of the Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC's program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:46]
Our school is focused on three fundamentals: research, education, and patient care. These are an integral part of who we are. If we go to the research, we've been consistently part of the top-funded private dental schools by the National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research, and we have trained many academic leaders who run NIH-funded research nationwide and worldwide. We encourage our students to do research, either basic research or translational research, and our faculty guide them to conduct that research and also put together the manuscript for publication. We host a very successful annual research day, and that's when our students, faculty, and postdoctoral fellows come together to show their innovative discoveries. We also have a publication, The Explorer, which has won multiple national awards that provides a comprehensive summary of all the innovative discoveries that we do at USC.
The second fundamental is patient care. We are located in the heart of Los Angeles. We have a great and extensive array of patients for our students, and we have very extensive community outreach programs, such as Union Rescue Mission, Mobile Clinic, QueensCare, and numerous rotations to the hospitals and communities that give treatment to our patients. Many of those treatments are free for our patients.
Education. We strive for the best education for our students and we always try to bring new technology, new equipment, new software, new faculty with new ideas. This commitment shines through in all that we do in the field of prosthodontics, endodontics, periodontics, and so on. So at Herman Ostrow, we provide the best education for our students, we provide the best treatment for our patients, and we're always trying to find new innovations through our research program.
Is research required for the students? How soon do they start in terms of patient care? [3:58]
No, it's not a required part. But if they're interested, we encourage them, and we guide them and we support them throughout the process.
Patient care starts in the third year. The first two years are mostly preclinical where they unlock skills and procedures. Once they complete that program, those first two years in a preclinical setting, then they go to the clinic and start patient care.
Ostrow students have "significant preclinical experience, education, training, and restorative dentistry using simulators." Can you disclose what kinds of simulators? How does that work? [4:34]
Dentistry is a very unique profession. Just think about it. We're working in a very limited space, and it's dark and everything is slippery. Everything is in either millimeter or it's in micron, so it could be very challenging to actually provide dentistry to the patient. We strive for excellence and we want the best quality for our patients, so therefore,
Are you considering a Master’s in Finance or MBA degree? [Show summary]
Admissions veteran and Accepted consultant Dr. Christie St-John explores the latest in MBA admissions and provides insights for those applying for a master’s in finance.
Read on for must-know admissions insights! [Show notes]
In May of 2020, admissions veteran Dr. Christie St-John joined Accepted as an MBA and graduate admissions consultant. Today, I'm going to speak with her about MBA admissions and about master’s in finance admissions.
Dr. St-John was a guest on our old chats as Associate Director of Admissions for Tuck. More recently, she was on Admissions Straight Talk as Director of Vanderbilt Owen's MBA Recruiting and Admissions, and most recently as an Accepted grad school and MBA admissions consultant. Today, Dr. St. John is going to share her expertise with you and me, once again, on this podcast.
You've been advising applicants as a consultant for about a year now. How has your perspective on the admissions process evolved since you moved to helping applicants, as opposed to evaluating applicants? [2:37]
I'm looking at their resumes and their essays much more critically because I know what is going to be said and discussed on the other end of it. While they may think they have wonderful essays that explain everything, sometimes they are too close to what they're writing about, and the message is totally lost because they are leaving out important elements of it. That has really helped me get people on the right track to making their essays as detailed, yet still concise, as possible so that their best qualities will show up.
Let's just talk about the resume. What are some of the more common mistakes that you see, or that you are now correcting, that you saw as an admissions director? [3:41]
A lot of times the candidates would just put down a job description, and that is not what we're looking for. We're actually looking for results. Showing that you have initiative, that you have actually had an impact, however small, on the organization you're working with. That's what the admissions committees are looking for. In many, many cases, members of the career management staff will also be on the admissions committee. You can believe that's what they're looking for because their job is to get you a job. If you don't have the experience or the qualifications or any sort of leverageable skills that they can help you with, they are probably going to nix your acceptance because they can't help you. The whole point of your going to a school is to be helped to find a job. You need to be a bit more self-aware of what you know how to do, and what you don't know how to do as well, when you're coming up with your long and short term goals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCzcS1K-wyc
What about the essays? What are you looking to improve? [4:55]
The first thing is to make sure they're actually answering the question that's asked, because that is quite often the main issue. They're thinking, “I've already done it. This is similar to what I did for X school. I'm just going to cut it and paste it and put it in here for Y school.” Sometimes that might work but, for the most part, no. Each school knows what they want. It should be obvious in the question the way it's asked. If you're answering something totally off the mark, you get points off for that.
There's no right or wrong answer, but there is an answer that makes sense to the question. When it says, “Tell me about your short-term goals after the MBA,” and you say, “My short-term goal is to get an MBA,” that's not after the MBA. You need to have reasonable goals. You cannot reform the entire education system or the healthcare system of the United States, or any other country, by yourself. Have realistic goals.
Do those goals have to be a little bit ambitious too? [6:09]
It's always good. That's another thing that admissions committees will look at.
Ellisa's non-traditional path to dentistry [Show summary]
Ellisa Soberon, a dental student at UCLA with a nontraditional path to dentistry, shares her insights on the dental school admissions process and life at UCLA.
What makes UCLA School of Dentistry unique... and the perfect fit for this dental student! [Show notes]
So, you want to go to dental school? Let's hear from a UCLA dental student how she got in and how she likes it.
Our guest today, Ellisa Soberon, is a first-year dental student at UCLA Dental School. In 2014, Ellisa earned her bachelor's from UCLA in environmental science with a minor in geography and environmental studies. She worked mostly in business between completing her undergraduate education and starting dental school.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and where you grew up? [1:48]
I grew up in a small town in Northern California called Alamo, about 40 minutes away from San Francisco. I grew up as an only child to two Asian-American immigrants, one from South Korea, my mom, and my dad, who came from the Philippines. I grew up as the only Asian-American in a predominantly white neighborhood. It was a great experience, honestly. I worked really hard in high school and was always an inquisitive person, and always had a love for the sciences. That carried over when I went to UCLA.
It was interesting growing up with two unique cultures that are very different. I didn't really know many other people who had that unique blend of different cultures growing up. Our Thanksgiving dinners were always really interesting. We always had Korean dishes, Filipino dishes, and American, and I feel like I was really lucky to have all three growing up.
As an undergrad, you majored in environmental science and then worked in business. How did you move from those pursuits to dentistry? They seem pretty far apart. [4:19]
I've always had a love for sciences. I really struggled in undergrad figuring out what I wanted to major in. I was undeclared for two years, and finally my counselor looked at me and said, "Hey you're approaching your junior year and you need to declare a major." My roommate was actually an environmental science major. I had not even given that major a thought. I thought that the classes that she was taking were super interesting, and I still had a love for science. So I thought, you know what, I'm just going to go for environmental science. And I'm glad I did. I honestly learned a lot with that major, and it's incredibly relevant today.
But in all honesty, I ended up choosing a career in technology and business right after graduation, purely because I needed a career. I needed a job after I graduated. So I stuck with that for about four and a half years before I thought, well, is this something that I really want to do for the rest of my career? I thought about it. I had what I like to call my quarter-life crisis, where I went around asking people, “How did you decide that you wanted to become X, Y, or Z?” And through talking to a lot of different people, I had a very honest conversation with myself and thought, I still want to go back to my roots which is the sciences. I ended up talking to my own dentist, and he described everything that he did on a day-to-day basis. And it sounded really interesting, so I decided, you know what? I'm going to give this a try. I'm going to shadow a dentist and see if this is something that I want to pursue. And that's how it started.
Did you explore dentistry further, in other clinical settings? [6:23]
I definitely shadowed a general dentist in my area. I also volunteered with a mobile dental clinic and got a lot of exposure that way. I shadowed a variety of dentists through that mobile clinic. So I felt like I had a good idea of what it was like through volunteer work and also owning a private practice, which I think is really important when it comes to dentistry.
Thanks for joining me for the 411th episode of Admissions Straight Talk.
I am taking a week off for family time this week. As a result I decided to air an encore of our most popular podcast so far in 2021. It actually is a solo podcast that I did for our 400th episode back in January entitled Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020.
As one application cycle winds down to a close and the next one starts up, It’s a good time to review some of the points I raised in that episode. I discussed:
the application surge at graduate schools in many different fields and how to respond to it.The increasing availability of test optional programs and test waivers at programs that still require aptitude tests.Reflections as we move forward, hopefully away from the 2020 pandemic.
For the MBA wannabes among you, especially if you are concerned about your GPA and test score, I’ve got a masterclass for you! I’m presenting Get Accepted to Top MBA Programs with Low Stats on Wednesday April 7, and you’re invited. You can accept this invitation at accepted.com/411MBA and reserve your seat today! It’s free.
I assume that many of you are also taking a spring break right now be it for a day or two or a whole week or more. I hope you get to spend it with loved ones. Have a wonderful time and thanks for listening to the encore of Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related Links:
Get Accepted to Top MBA Programs with Low StatsGet Accepted to Medical School During an Application SurgeTest-Optional MBA Programs: Everything You Need to Know in 2021Entering Law School Gets More Challenging as Number of Top Applicants SkyrocketsHow to Answer Med School Questions about COVID-19 and Other Major Events of 2020 [Video]Accepted Admissions Consulting ServicesMBA Application Timeline: How to Get Accepted in 2021The 11th Grade College Planning Timeline That You Need to Get Accepted
Related Shows:
How to Address COVID-19 and the Events of 2020 in Your ApplicationApplying to Med School During COVID-19Expert Advice for Applicants and an Inside Look at UCLA Anderson from an Intl MBATwo Admissions Experts on the Latest in Law School Admissions
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Are you considering a PhD, either in the United States or abroad? [Show summary]
Dr. Eva Lantsoght, a professor of civil engineering who has lived and studied all over the globe, shares her insights on applying to PhD programs in STEM fields.
What to expect when applying to domestic and international PhD programs. [Show notes]
Would you like to attend a US or UK master’s or PhD program in a STEM field? Are you concerned about the process of both applying to and completing the degree?
Dr. Eva Lantsoght is a citizen of the world, professor of civil engineering, blogger, and podcast host. Dr. Lantsoght was born in Belgium and earned her bachelor's in civil engineering in Brussels and her master's in structural engineering at Georgia Tech, with a full ride scholarship and a scholarship from the Belgian-American Educational Foundation. She earned her PhD at TU Delft, where she has been a researcher since earning her PhD in 2013 and recently received tenure. Since 2013 she has also been an assistant professor at USFQ in Quito, Ecuador, where she also has tenure.
Officially, you're a professor of civil engineering with a focus on concrete. However, you've been blogging and podcasting about something not so “concrete”: how to get into and complete PhD programs. How did you get interested in this process? [2:14]
I started blogging in the first year of my PhD, and at that time, it was just documenting my experience in the laboratory. I wanted a place where I could write about what didn't work in the lab or the processes behind what we do in the lab, like how to keep lab notes, how to organize all that information, things that don't get into a journal publication. So I started to use my blog as a space for documenting those things. As I progressed through my career, I started to write about other topics related to PhD research and PhD education, and then came questions from students thinking about doing a PhD. “What is it like? What should I consider? How do I select a school? How do I select an advisor? What is different about a PhD in the Netherlands versus the United States?” I started to write about all of these topics.
I think there's a lot of information out there, but I found that, especially in my niche of engineering and civil engineering, there may not be that many professor bloggers or PhD student bloggers out there. I stepped up to the lack that was there and started to address those. From those questions came my interest in looking at what PhD programs are like at different universities and why there are these differences and how that then impacts the career of researchers after going through a more research-oriented or more a coursework-and-research-oriented PhD program.
What is the typical process for earning a PhD in a STEM field? [4:24]
It also really depends on the country, but mostly I've worked in the Netherlands. What I see is that typically, if it's full-time, it will be a three- to four-year endeavor. If you do it part-time, of course, it takes at least five years. There will always be a time of reading, familiarizing yourself with the literature, defining what is really going to be your research question, the topic that you really want to address. And from that comes the methods that you will apply, and in a STEM field, that typically has either a theoretical component or an experimental component, or that experimental component can be physically in the lab, or it can be numerical experiments. That requires a large amount of time on either bench work or computer simulation work, or a deep theoretical analysis. And from there comes interacting with the data, wrapping up everything, getting back to your research question, and then writing the dissertation and defending at the end.
What if a PhD student has a hypothesis, and the test shows that the hypothesis is false? [5:31]
I do a lot of experimental work, so I am very well aware of all the surprises one can get in the lab.
Need-to-know information about MIT Sloan [Show summary]
Dawna Levenson, Assistant Dean of Admissions at MIT Sloan School of Management, shares the latest from the school’s full-time MBA program, including why it’s chosen to go test-optional and how the pandemic is shaping the classroom experience.
Do you see yourself at MIT Sloan? Read on for the inside admissions scoop. [Show notes]
This is one of the most competitive MBA application cycles in memory. Today, I'm interviewing the Assistant Dean of Admissions at one of the most competitive MBA programs, MIT Sloan.
Dawna Levenson is Assistant Dean at MIT Sloan School of Management. Dawna earned her bachelor's and master's in Management Science at MIT Sloan, became a partner at Accenture, and then returned to MIT Sloan in 2007 as Associate Director of Academic Programs. She moved into admissions in 2012 and became Director of Admissions in 2013, and Assistant Dean in 2018.
Can you give an overview of MIT Sloan's full-time MBA program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it? [1:52]
We have a two-year MBA, we have a one-semester core, and then three semesters to really shape the curriculum to meet your interests. We have three tracks. We have one in finance, one in entrepreneurship and innovation, and a third in enterprise management. Think of those as templates or maps for particular areas of concentration. We also have three certificates: one in business analytics, one in healthcare, and a third in sustainability. These have been designed so that people are able to actually do one of each, if they're interested. You could imagine that you may do the finance track, but then want to apply it to healthcare.
One other distinction I want to make is that, while the tracks are very specific to our two-year MBAs, the certificates are actually open to not only our MBAs and the entire Sloan community, but actually the entire MIT community. We are, in fact, MIT School of Management. That can mean as much as you want it to mean. As an MBA student, you are able to get involved in classes and clubs and conferences throughout the Institute to really help compliment your MBA experience. You can take some of your electives throughout the Institute. You can actually, also, take classes at several of the Harvard schools as well.
What’s new at MIT Sloan, other than a lockdown and a pandemic? [3:18]
It's hard to ignore the pandemic, and we absolutely should not. What I think has come out of that is lots of really interesting conversations in the classroom, as well as lots of very interesting projects. Many of our courses, which are, in fact, project-based, have taken the opportunity to refocus on different aspects of the pandemic and COVID-19. Whether it be from a healthcare standpoint or whether it be infrastructure and the impact there, or if you just think about it from a global perspective, so many things have been impacted. This has really, I think, shifted the conversation an awful lot. And again, at MIT and MIT Sloan, we're really all about identifying and solving the world's biggest problems. There were those who said we've been built for this time. I think we're trying to do everything we can to really make a difference.
Can you give a couple of examples? [4:20]
Last spring, when the pandemic hit, one of our courses is called USA Lab. And for that lab class, all of the projects, which had been defined very differently early on, shifted focus to be very much focused on helping the companies that we're working with figure out how to survive through the pandemic. This fall, all of our action learning lab classes have become virtual, which has become very, very helpful to their sponsoring companies all over the world. Because as I mentioned, companies have been impacted tremendously. As part of the actual learning experience in the past, there's been a travel component tied to that that has been funded by the company.
A tale of med school reapplication success [Show summary]
After getting rejected from medical schools the first time around, Nicole Stephens bounced back and reapplied. Now happily anticipating the start of med school, she shares her advice for fellow reapplicants.
How to apply stronger the second time around [Show notes]
Were you rejected from this year's med school cycle? Is the deafening silence from medical schools causing you to fear rejection? Are you starting to think about reapplication?
Our guest today, Nicole Stephens, reapplied successfully and is happily anticipating the start of medical school. She earned her bachelor's in neuroscience from UT Austin in May 2019, and she is currently pursuing an MS in biomedical science from MD Anderson UTHealth Graduate School of Biomedical Science in Houston.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and where you grew up? [1:56]
I grew up moving around the country with my brother and my parents, and both my parents served in the military. Every few years we would pack up and move to a new location. Not only did this inspire my future career, but it taught me a lot and shaped me a lot as a person, teaching me things like integrity and discipline and showing me the diversity across the whole country. We finally did settle in Central Texas where we really fell in love with the area. I decided to stay to do my undergrad in Austin at the University of Texas. Then, I stayed in Texas for my graduate program here in Houston and will be attending medical school here in Texas as well. I'm not from Texas, but I'm now a Texan at heart.
How did you decide to pursue a career in medicine? [3:01]
I decided around when I was in middle school and early in high school from observing and learning about the injuries of returning soldiers. Being from military communities, many of the members would deploy overseas and return with injuries like post-traumatic stress or traumatic brain injury. I saw somewhere in my community that I would be able to help. That's what inspired me to go into medicine.
Did you volunteer with some of the veterans and soldiers that came back injured? [3:29]
I was able to volunteer at the military hospital at Fort Hood, Texas in the ICU there. My mom, she's an artist. She did some art with some veterans, and I was able to volunteer with her for that. This was when I was 14 or 15. I wasn't able to do much as a volunteer, being so young, but I was able to observe a lot. I think being in that environment at a young age, I was able to see that that is what I want to pursue in the future.
Why did you decide to pursue the master's in biomedical science? [4:09]
I knew that there would be some time between my time as an undergrad and medical school, and I wanted to do something that would challenge myself, but also show medical schools that I was dedicated to continuing my education and show them that I was able to continue to increase my GPA. That's why I decided to do a program. The reason I chose my particular program is because I had the opportunity to continue my research. So as an undergrad, I did a lot of bench work research, and I worked with fruit flies. Now as a graduate student, I'm now able to work more with patients in clinical research. That was a really neat opportunity and led me to this particular program.
What is the application of your research, either with fruit flies or human beings? [4:58]
With fruit flies, I studied their circadian rhythmicity and a few different mutant variants. Now I'm doing completely different research. I'm actually doing research at the dental school here, working with geriatric patients. Geriatrics is something I'm really interested in, so that's why I chose this particular lab. My thesis project is in studying oral health changes over time in nursing home residents. The oral health and systemic health, they're connected. For oral health,
What makes the Cambridge Judge MBA experience unique? [Show summary]
Charlotte Russell-Green, Head of MBA Recruitment and Admissions at Cambridge Judge Business School, explores the one-of-a-kind experience students can expect from the full-time MBA program at Cambridge Judge’s historic campus.
What Cambridge Judge is looking for... and what it can offer YOU [Show notes]
Are you intrigued by the innovative and venerated Cambridge Judge Business School? Interested in an immersive one-year MBA in the UK? The Cambridge Judge Head of MBA Recruitment and Admissions is our guest today.
Charlotte Russell-Green earned her bachelor's in Drama and Theater Arts from the University of London. In only a couple of years, she was working in the MBA admissions world, first as a senior marketing executive for QS World MBA in North America and then in MBA admissions for Cambridge Judge. She became Head of Recruitment and Admissions for the MBA roughly five years ago.
Can you give us an overview of the Cambridge Judge MBA program and focus on its more distinctive elements? [2:03]
The Cambridge MBA is a one-year full-time MBA program, run out of the University of Cambridge, which is in the UK, which is in Europe. The great thing about the Cambridge MBA is it really is experiential. The curriculum has been designed to take you on a micro to macro journey, but with each term, there is a key learning milestone: a practical project where you're working with a real life client. There are two live consulting projects that run alongside your studies, as well as the global consulting project, which is where you work with an international client on site as a consultant, as well as an internship opportunity in the summer. So it's really experiential, and it's really, really collaborative.
We have a class size of circa 200, which we find is optimal for us and the learning environment that we have, because you can build meaningful relationships with your classmates. It's broad enough and diverse enough to build a far-reaching network, but you're really going to get to know everyone in the class. You're also set amongst the University of Cambridge, so you are a member of one of the famous Cambridge colleges, and you get to have the Harry Potter-style dining experience. It's a fantastic opportunity and a great life experience.
Over the summer term, you can do an internship. We keep the summer term quite flexible because people can be at quite different journeys of their career path. Some people want to do an internship. Some people choose to do another consulting project, or some even choose to do a research paper.
Do the students have any difficulty changing career direction or returning to their home country if they aren't from the UK? I know most Cambridge Judge students are not. [4:02]
Usually around 90% of the class is international. A really good thing to look at, which perhaps we can link to later, is the employment report, which is a great way of seeing where our students go after the MBA. Particularly if you're coming from the US and you're used to the two-year standard MBA model, you might feel a bit anxious about the one-year program and it being so fast-paced and over in a flash. But actually we have over 90% of the class switch function sector or location, and actually, over 40% of the class achieve all three. So within that one year, people are able to really change up their career and achieve a lot. Good thing to do would be to look at the report and drill down, but we get people who work in the UK and we get people who go to work internationally in another country.
But we do also get people who return to their home country. It's something that our students do achieve. But what I would say, if you are someone from the US who is looking to work in the US after your MBA, then unless it is your goal to gain that international experience and get that one year internationally and broaden your network international...
How Blueprint Prep can help YOU crush the LSAT [Show summary]
Blueprint Prep’s Sena Maruflu, who aced the LSAT and now coaches aspiring law students, shares why and how the LSAT can be a learnable test for dedicated students of any background.
A stellar LSAT score can mean the difference between acceptance and rejection at top law schools. Learn how YOU can achieve the score of your dreams! [Show notes]
Are you prepping for the LSAT? Planning to apply to law school? Blueprint's Sena Maruflu, who aced the LSAT and now teaches the LSAT, shares her top LSAT tips.
Sena has a very unusual background. She speaks eight languages and is truly a citizen of the world. She moved to New York City to pursue a career in the arts, but somewhere along the way, she launched a career in international business as a sustainable coffee entrepreneur. She also considered law school, got bit by the LSAT bug (she earned a 178), and began to teach LSAT prep. She considers the LSAT like another language: completely teachable and completely learnable.
How do you get involved with LSAT prep? [1:33]
I come from a career in the arts, primarily in dance. I moved to New York City at 17 to pursue that career, and I ended up getting injured and being unable to dance. I was looking to do pretty much anything else, and I explored quite a lot of things. The LSAT was that “anything else” and I ended up falling in love with it.
What do you think is the most important thing for prospective law school applicants to keep in mind when prepping for the LSAT? [2:07]
People frequently ask me this question because I don't really have the most robust academic experience. I never really went to elite, impressive institutions or anything. People always ask me how I earned such a high score, and I really think it's because I had such a positive and excited attitude throughout the whole thing. I think I always kept the end goal in mind. For me, the end goal wasn't earning a perfect score. It was because I genuinely wanted to go to law school, and I really wanted to take that next step in my academic career. For some people, it's being a certain kind of lawyer or solving a specific kind of issue that they really want to go to law school to solve. Keep that at the forefront of your mind as you're studying, not really worrying much about the little mishaps along the way, just acknowledging that they're going to happen. Lucky for me, I failed many times in my life, so it was nothing that was a shock to me. It never really brought me down too much. I always kept the end goal in mind.
What if an applicant knows that the schools they are applying to are accepting both the GRE and the LSAT? When should applicants take the LSAT, and when should they take the GRE? [4:36]
That's a really great question because accepting the GRE is a relatively new thing in law school admissions, and shockingly, there actually are cases where taking the GRE is an appropriate step. A couple of things on that: The first is acknowledging that if you want to apply to law school, you most likely are going to have to take the LSAT. This is different from business school or medical school, or most higher education programs, because people applying to law school have very diverse majors. People can be dance majors and apply to law school, or they could be science majors and apply to law school. The LSAT really is the one and only standardized thing that everyone has. It is very important, and schools view it as very, very important because of that reason. It's the only standardized thing.
However, I think when the first batch of schools set the precedent of accepting the GRE, and Harvard was one them, there came the question of, when is it appropriate? To answer that, looking at past trends of applicants that got accepted to elite schools with the GRE shows that there's one thing that most of these applicants have in common, and that's having a really, really high GPA.
Looking to apply to a social justice-focused medical school? Find out if BUSM is a good fit for you. [Show summary]
Dr. Kristen Goodell, Associate Dean of Admissions at Boston University School of Medicine, explores student life at BUSM and its social justice-focused approach to medical education, as well as her advice to applicants on navigating its competitive admissions process.
Who gets accepted to BUSM? [Show notes]
Do you have your eye on BU's medical school? Would you love to attend that program but are a little nervous about the fact that it gets 80 applications for every available seat? Have no fear: BUSM's Associate Dean of Admissions is today's guest on Admissions Straight Talk.
Dr. Kristen Goodell is Associate Dean of Admissions at Boston University School of Medicine. She earned her bachelor's degree at Colby College and her MD at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. She completed her residency in family medicine at Tufts and has been a practicing physician ever since 2007. In addition, from 2012 to 2017, Dr. Goodell served as a Director for Innovation in Medical Education at the Harvard Medical School Center for Primary Care. In 2017, she was appointed Assistant Dean of Admissions at BUSM and became Associate Dean in 2018.
Can you start by giving us an overview of the BU School of Medicine program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:27]
The most important take-home message to know about BU School of Medicine is that we are a social justice medical school. You see that come out in a number of different ways. You see it in the types of things that we focus on in our curriculum. You see it in the patients that we take care of in our primary academic hospital. And you even see it in the energy and the vibe that we bring to our work. A big place that you see that is in the extra things that our students do in addition to studying for their classes. I could say more specific things about that; I have about one million stories to illustrate the fact that we're a social justice medical school.
We're not the only social justice medical school in the United States. There are a few schools that I know of that I would characterize as existing to take care of an underserved population, often a specific underserved population. We are one of those schools. It certainly differentiates us from the other schools in the northeast. A thing that is really interesting about our medical school is that this powerful social justice driver happens in the context of a major research university. We're not a community school that's focused on delivering care to one specific community, although we do take care of our patients in our neighborhood. But we are a big academic medical center along with a major research university. What that means is that you see a lot of our areas of expertise and some of our coolest innovations are all focused around the idea of social justice.
One example is that we're the primary investigative site for a large multicenter trial that is looking to see what happens if you screen every single patient for social determinants of health. Every patient in any of our primary care clinics is asked about their access to food, is asked about their housing situation, if they have transportation for appointments, if they need employment support, all kinds of stuff. We're doing this big study to see, if we know about those things, would we be able to address them? And then later on, does that impact the patient's health? It seems like it should be obvious, right? Of course, doctors should hopefully know if their patients don't have food or a place to live. Except the thing is, in medicine, we often don't know that because we don't ask because in medicine we don't screen for things we can't treat. But at Boston Medical Center, which is BU School of Medicine’s primary teaching hospital, we've developed all of these supports and ways to try to address those issues for...
Applying the lessons of MBA school to the reality of COVID-19 [Show summary]
Al Dea, a tech product manager who earned his MBA from UNC, dives deep into what life is like after business school, including how the pandemic has impacted the post-MBA experience.
What steps can businesses take to help employees thrive during COVID? How can MBA programs help students thrive during this time? [Show notes]
Our guest today is a tech product manager, member of the UNC MBA class of 2015, host of the MBASchooled podcast, and author of the book MBA Insider: How to Make the Most of Your MBA Experience. Al Dea earned his bachelor's in marketing and theology from Boston College in 2010. He then became a Deloitte analyst and consultant until starting his MBA at UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School. He earned his MBA from Kenan-Flagler in 2015 and returned to Deloitte for a couple of years, then started in product management for a leading high tech firm in 2017, and today is a senior manager in product marketing at that company. On the side, he launched his website, MBASchooled, in 2015. A year ago, he published his first book, MBA Insider: How to Make The Most of Your MBA Experience, and started the MBASchooled podcast.
It's been about a year since he was last on Admissions Straight Talk, and we discussed in that interview his application experience and MBA experience at UNC. We’re not going to cover those topics again, but if you would like to hear Al's perspective on the topics I typically discuss, check out the original interview, MBA Insider Shares His Secrets in New Book.
How did you adjust to remote work both personally and as a manager working in tech? [2:46]
I’m someone who works as a knowledge worker and for a tech company. Relatively speaking, we've all experienced challenges, but my experience making the transition was rather seamless. Many of the people on my team have worked remotely for varying degrees of time, and in some cases, many are only remote based off of where they are, geographically speaking. It wasn't so much that we hadn't done this before; we just all hadn't done it permanently before. It was really about refining and getting used to this being an everyday thing. That said, even though we did have incredible resources to make the transition, even though we had some kind of norms for knowing how to collaborate over Google Hangouts and Google Meet and the like, it definitely was still challenging. Anytime you get a shock to the system, or you have to make an adjustment, it takes the body a little bit of time to adapt and evolve.
For me, a couple of things stood out. Number one, the fundamentals in the ways of working. Fundamentals: these are the things that are critical to helping you be at your best and do your job effectively. If you think about a professional athlete, if I think about someone like LeBron James, LeBron James is amazing on the court because of all the things he does off the court in order for him to be at his best. That was something that I took to heart as I made the transition to working more remote and thought about for the folks on my team. What are those fundamentals that, in this new environment, we need to make sure we focus on so that we can do the best we possibly can each and every day? It was going to be different because the environment was different.
The second thing was thinking about the ways of working. These are the kinds of the things that you sometimes take for granted when you're working in an office every day, the ability to pop over to someone's desk and say, "Hey, what about that thing in that meeting that we talked about? Can you follow up real quick?" Or being able to go to the coffee bar to catch up with someone and have that chat about what's going on. We paid attention to those as well and thought about how we reenacted those. All of us as humans are social beings, and those are really critical and important.
Understanding postbac programs, and how they can help YOU apply to medical school successfully [Show summary]
Accepted consultant Dr. Barry Rothman offers an overview of postbac programs to help prospective med school applicants discern if the postbac experience is the next best step for them, along with tips for postbac applicants.
How postbac programs help applicants apply at their best [Show notes]
Are you applying to medical school but concerned about your undergraduate record? Or, did the medical bug bite you when it was too late to take the med school prerequisites? Then you either are or should be considering a postbac program.
Our guest today is Dr. Barry Rothman, Accepted consultant. Dr. Rothman has been on the show several times. The first time was way back in 2013, before he joined Accepted. At the time, he was serving at San Francisco State University as a professor of biology, director of postbac programs, director of the SFSU health professionals advising committee, director of the pre-health professions certificate program, and director of the SFSU/University of Pacific Dental postbac program. He has since left SFSU and is now a much-loved consultant at Accepted.
How and when did you get involved in postbac programs? [2:11]
Around 2005. I was a professor at San Francisco State, and my Dean approached me and said, "We need a new health professions advisor." I thought, “I like working with students and I'm interested in molecular medicine. This sounds good. I get three units of release time, and it should be easy.” Well, it was a lot more work, and I loved it. I really fell in love with the area and especially the students, working with them closely, helping them find their way into the health profession. At the time, there was an informal postbac program that all the CSU campuses had, but there were no services. You could just take classes with undergrads.
What services did you feel were lacking? [3:03]
Mostly advising, letter writing. There was no organization. It was just free-floating. The postbacs who came to SF State could take classes, but that was it. Nobody took care of them. A group of them approached me and said, "We would be willing to pay extra money if we could get some advising." I said, "Okay, let's put our heads together." We wrote up a proposal, and my dean got on board. I had to take it to our Academic Senate, which was a learning experience in itself, having to learn how to navigate the political waters at San Francisco State, which are pretty calm, not turbulent, but still, I had to learn how to present my program to the Academic Senate and convince them that this was a good thing to do. It turned out great. Amazingly, it was in black ink from the very beginning.
I'm not directing the program anymore, but now the program’s into its 14th or 15th cohort. It's been quite successful. It was formulated on the idea of cooperation, although many health professions situations can have a competitive component to them. We really wanted to select people who wanted to be team players, and that has been very successful. A lot of folks don't want to be in a heavy competitive situation and want to be in a situation where people pull together and support each other.
Let's dive into the different kinds of postbac programs that exist, focusing on MD and DO postbac programs. Can you give us an overview? [4:34]
The two main divisions are career changer and academic enhancer. A career changer is somebody who hasn't taken any, or perhaps one or two, of the prerequisites for medical school. They are, in essence, changing their career from whatever they were doing before to a medical track. An academic enhancer is somebody who has completed most or all of the medical school pre-reqs, and probably some electives, but hasn't done as well as they wanted to do to be. They need to enhance their academic record by taking additional, usually upper-division biology electives.
How can you ace the GMAT, the EA or any test required at your dream school? [Show summary]
Mike Diamond of Apex GMAT shares his advice for acing the GMAT, prepping for graduate program tests of all kinds, and why empathy is central to Apex’s approach to test-coaching.
Mike Diamond, Director of Curriculum Development at Apex GMAT talks test prep [Show notes]
How can you ace the GMAT, the EA, or any tests that may be required at the school you have your heart set on? Today’s guest has your answer. Mike Diamond is Director of Curriculum Development at Apex GMAT, and also its Co-Founder. Mike earned his bachelor's at Brandeis in 2000 and has worked in finance, strategy advising, and political consulting. However, his passion is the GMAT.
How did you get involved in the test prep business? [1:55]
Entirely by accident. My passion is teaching and helping people, and I've always pursued that in all the various places that I've been in my career, and even going back to being a student. And like many, I was sort of the go-to guy for friends and family members, as a resource for people I knew, without paying attention to it as a potential career choice. I had spent some time working in a hedge fund, and then I was in the world of political consulting as you had mentioned. I loved it. I was helping people. I was doing really interesting work. But frankly, I was getting a little jaded, and this is well over a decade ago, and I know a lot more people are jaded these days. I was getting a little jaded, and I was having a burrito with my best friend's cousin. We're sitting in the Qdoba, and she's brilliant. She's actually an instructor at Manhattan Prep and she says to me, "Hey, I'm super passionate about Teach For America. I love teaching fourth grade science in North Philly, but I pay my mortgage teaching the GMAT." I said, "Oh really?" At the time, I only thought there were the bigger shops, the Kaplans and Princeton Reviews. And frankly, as an educator, and I certainly consider myself an educator, those never held much appeal for me as a place of employment. I said, "Oh wow, that's really fascinating." I had always had a proclivity towards psychometric standardized testing.
So about four days later, I went in, I did the GMAT, and then I began taking meetings with various GMAT firms. I was disappointed in what I saw, and there's plenty of great firms and great tutors out there. But once a GMAT business gets beyond a small scale, personalized attention really isn't a priority, and everything defaults to curriculum and having very bright instructors go through a prescriptive method for learning how to excel. There's two problems with that. One is that it only gets a candidate so far, and the other is that it's very one-size-fits-all, and yet one size does not fit all. Very quickly, everything else went into the rear view mirror. I began Apex with some like-minded instructors, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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What is Apex GMAT Prep? [4:54]
Apex is dedicated to helping people become better thinkers and better learners. We really consider the GMAT and the results that you get from becoming a better thinker as a result of that deeper process, permit you to be a more creative problem-solver, a more critical thinker in your profession, in your MBA, EMBA, or other graduate school program, and in your life and your relationships. There are a core suite of thinking skills that are not taught academically, that come through experience, but also come through having a particularly great teacher or particularly great circumstances with respect to family or mentors on how to approach the attitudinal adjustments one needs to make the emotional and psychological adjustments that one has to make to even approach intractable problems. Most of this is what we focus on. It's not tips, it's not tricks, it's not heuristics.
Need help deciding if law school and a legal career are right for YOU? [Show summary]
Christopher Melcher, a celebrity family lawyer and teacher of law, offers an unvarnished look at a lawyer’s day-to-day and what a career in law can look like.
Considering law school? Read on to learn what a career as a lawyer can look like. [Show notes]
What's being a lawyer truly like? Our guest today, a divorce attorney to the stars, is going to tell us. Some of you may wonder, what does celebrity family law (which almost seems like an oxymoron) have to do with admissions? That's a very good question. Listeners considering a JD may want to learn what lawyers really do, what the career is really like.
Christopher Melcher got his JD in 1993 at Pepperdine Law, went initially into criminal law and personal injury litigation, and has been with the family law firm of Walzer & Melcher since 2002. He's also an adjunct professor at Pepperdine Law.
How did you decide that a career in law is for you? [1:55]
That was easy for me because my dad was a lawyer. He was a deputy district attorney in the early 1970s, and when I was really young, he would come home and talk to me about his cases. These were serious cases. I might've been six or seven years old when he started talking to me about his cases. He would explain what he was working on, and then he would ask me, "What do you think?" That got my legal mind started because he was genuinely interested in my opinion. I don't know what I had to share at that age, but we would have these conversations.
As I got older, they, I'm sure, got better, but I remembered that he really wanted to know what I thought. I had the feeling like he would maybe use some of that input for his cases and arguments and trials that he was in. That helped form this legal, analytical mind. As I got older, I got into some trouble in grade school, and I remember being in the principal's office and my buddy, Don, was there too for some unrelated offense. He would ask me like, "I got in trouble. What should I do?" I would give him advice. I was like a little jailhouse lawyer there as a kid, helping my buddies craft their stories for the principal. That's how it started in getting those legal juices going in my brain.
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Did you test that thesis as you got older? [3:38]
I wanted to be a lawyer from that early age, but I really didn't want to do the work. I wanted to grow up too fast, and that really was a mistake. I had a lot of fun, but I didn't want to put the work in, and that held me back. I think back then it was easier to slack in school and still survive. I don't know what I would do now. I feel the pressure on students now is so much greater than it was. I'm talking about in the 80s, for me, because I could get by as a C student without studying or reading or doing anything and somehow got into college and somehow got into law school. I had it easy because, I think, of the times.
Things really clicked for me probably in the second or third year of college when I decided, "Okay. I have to actually do this and take it seriously." Then I kicked it into high gear and finished off college and got into law school.
You initially started out in criminal law and then switched to family law. Why the switch? [4:54]
When I was in law school, I had my whole future mapped out. I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to become a corporate securities lawyer because I had met somebody doing that, and they made a ton of money. I was like, "Wow, this is for me." I like corporate law. I liked all this with the investing angle. Some of these lawyers were taking a piece of the action, basically, for these companies that they were helping to form and getting paid quite a bit of money if the company was successful.
That was my goal, and I figured I was going to go out of law school, work at the Securities and Exchange Commission,
Can the lessons of 2020 help us forge a better 2021? [Show summary]
For Admissions Straight Talk’s 400th episode, Linda Abraham reflects on a turbulent year and identifies the most important trends in higher ed admissions to watch in 2021.
Applying to graduate school: A journey of self-improvement [Show notes]
We’ve reached Episode 400! I feel it's a milestone, and I've decided to do a little bit of a different kind of a show. I'm going to discuss two important developments of 2020 and their impact on applicants, their implications for you as you apply, and how you should deal with them.
I also want to speak at the very end on a more personal and, hopefully, thoughtful perspective, a little bit higher level, more strategically, and share some thoughts as we are starting to see the light at the end of the pandemic tunnel. This is a brand new year. The other perspective that I'm going to share will reflect a little of what I've learned from Rabbi Lord Dr. Jonathan Sacks, a favorite writer, thinker, and teacher of mine, who sadly passed away in November. His writings have relevance to many people and many situations, but specifically to grad school applicants, and I'm dedicating this podcast in his memory.
The rising number of graduate program applicants [2:16]
The first development that folks need to be aware of, and I'm sure you are aware of, is the surge. And no, I don't mean the surge in COVID cases that we are tragically experiencing. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the surge in applicants to graduate programs across the board that is occurring this fall and winter.
What do I mean by that? Let's give some examples. In December, NPR reported that 18% more applicants applied via AAMC to medical school than did a year earlier. Some school-specific numbers: Stanford, which also went test-optional, reported a 50% increase in applications. Boston University reported a 27% increase in applications. And when I spoke with Paul White of Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in October, for Admissions Straight Talk's 392nd episode which you can find at accepted.com/392, he reported at that point an increase of 25% in applications to Johns Hopkins.
Business schools are also experiencing a surge in applications. They were experiencing a decline in applications that seemed to end for most schools with round two of last year and the recession’s onset in March of 2020. They have also seen a surge in applications this cycle. The stats for last year revealed 67% of MBA programs reporting increased applications per GMAC. The stats for this year aren't out yet, but news reports, whether from The Wall Street Journal, Poets&Quants, or my conversations with admissions directors, all indicate increased application volume.
Law school applications have also soared. Through December 15th, LSAC reports a 38% increase in applicants (not applications, but applicants) year over year, a whopping 57.4% increase in applications year over year, and an almost 62% increase in applications over two years ago. Twelve out of 200 law schools reported a 100% increase in applications, and 106 out of 200 law schools reported an increase of between 50 and 99%, which means that well over half of law schools are reporting more than a 50% increase in applications. LSAC, conservatively, warns that it's too early in the cycle to draw conclusions, since at this time last year, 34% of applications had been counted. However, I am concluding that with roughly a third of applications in, or presumed to be in at this point in time, the file numbers may not be this eye-popping, but there will be a marked increase in applications to the nation's law schools.
Various graduate specialties are also up: for example, Master's in Public Health. ABC News, citing data from the Association of Schools and Programs of Public Health, which has over 100 MPH programs participating in its Common Application service,
How this non-traditional medical student transitioned into medicine as a second career [Show summary]
Efrat Bruck is an M4 at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, as well as a parent and MCAT video creator for Khan Academy with a nontraditional path to medicine. She shares how the program has given her the flexibility and support to balance these responsibilities and thrive in medical school. Listen to the show >>
A career-switcher's journey from teacher to medical student [Show notes]
What's it like to attend Mount Sinai's Icahn School of Medicine? And how does this M4 juggle the responsibilities of parenting, med school, serving on the Mount Sinai Student Admissions Committee, and being an MCAT video creator for Khan Academy?
Efrat Bruck is a non-traditional medical school student who attended medical school as a mom and had a successful career as a teacher. Now, she’s an M4 at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York.
Can you tell us a bit about your background outside of medicine? Where did you grow up? What do you like to do for fun? [1:45]
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York in the neighborhood of Borough Park. My parents immigrated to the US about one year before I was born to seek medical treatment for one of my older brothers who has congenital kidney failure, and much of our childhood revolved around his medical situation. I think, by the time I was in high school, he had had three kidney transplants. My dad is a rabbi and a teacher in the community. My mom was mostly a stay-at-home mom, but also taught intermittently, so I come from a family of teachers. I'm one of 10 children. I have seven brothers and two sisters, and I am seventh, part of the younger crew.
After high school, the expectation was to get out there in the real world and become financially independent, so I went to a one-year program that trained me to be a teacher, and then I got a job as a high school teacher. At the age of 18, I started teaching high school and started what would be an almost decade-long career in education that I really, really enjoyed. In my last year of college, I started working at Columbia University Medical Center in a research lab in nephrology. I had a really personal connection to nephrology because of my brother. I think my work at the lab was the springboard that eventually led me to go to medical school.
When did you go to Columbia? [3:20]
To backtrack, I went to college a few years after high school. Maybe three years into teaching, I went to Touro College in Brooklyn, New York. And then in my last semester of college, as part of one of the honors projects, I started working at a lab at Columbia, a lab in nephrology. The principal investigator was Dr. Jonathan Barasch. That was, as I said, the springboard for applying to medical school.
You mentioned that because of your brother's situation, you were drawn to nephrology. When you went back to college, were you thinking of getting more of an education-oriented degree and staying in that field, and then you decided to make the switch? Is that how it worked? [3:49]
I'll backtrack a little. I really always wanted to be a doctor from a pretty young age. I love the sciences. I think all of us, when we sort of look back at our school years, there were some classes that felt like a burden and some classes that maybe felt a little more natural, or you looked forward to it. That's how I felt about the sciences. I always looked forward to those classes, and I didn't feel that burden of studying, at least when I was a kid. It gets burdensome later on! But as a kid, I really loved it, and I was just fascinated by this link between science and medicine.
I knew science existed and that somehow this translated into medicine, which I knew kept my brother alive all those years. So I was really fascinated from a young age, but as I said, it wasn't really on the radar for me right after high school to go to college.
I am swamped at this time of year with clients facing early January deadlines so I decided to end 2020 with one of our most popular shows of the year, my interview with Accepted’s own Esmeralda Cardenal.
For you MBA applicants applying during this very tough cycle or planning to apply in the next cycle- take advantage of Esmeralda’s experience, both as an MBA admission director and experienced MBA admission consultant for Accepted. Here are a few of the questions she addresses:
What are your top tips for dealing with a low GPA?What do you wish applicants did before they come to you for assistance with their applications?What are some of the differences between applying to a typical MBA program and applying to a Master's in analytics program?What can applicants do to learn about a school since they can't visit now, and fairs or receptions are pretty much nonexistent?What advice do you have for MBA re-applicants, both as an admissions consultant and former admissions officer?
The interview actually took place last March. It’s also interesting to hear what the concerns were less than a year ago. What’s the same, and what’s changed.
As we put away or throw out our calendars from 2020 and turn to 2021, I also want to share a few thoughts. For most people it’s been a really tough year. Health challenges. Financial pain. Social isolation. Restrictions galore. Social unrest. A divisive election in the U.S.
I think most of us will be glad to close the books on 2020. Even though it has shaken our world and maybe our confidence in the future, I hope that AST’s listeners will muster their courage and determination, their positivity and ability, to pick themselves up and plan to create a better year, a better future for themselves and the world. To paraphrase Stanford GSB’s motto “Improve lives. Improve organizations. Improve the world.” Again, thank you for listening to the podcast. I wish you much success in this brand new, exciting year ahead.
Now the interview with Accepted Senior MBA Admissions Consultant, Esmeralda Cardenal. >>
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related Links:
Work with Esmeralda CardenalFitting in and Standing Out: the Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, a free guide How to Answer MBA Application and Interview Questions about COVID-19 and Other Major Events of 2020 [Video]School-Specific MBA Application Essay Tips Accepted’s MBA Admissions Consulting Services
Related Shows:
Is the MBA Worth It, or Is the Sky Falling Down on the MBA Degree? How to Address COVID-19 and the Events of 2020 in Your ApplicationAn Insider’s Look at MBA AdmissionsHow to Prepare for a Successful Round 1 MBA ApplicationMBA Insider Shares His Secrets in New BookHow to Get Accepted to a Top EMBA Program: The Experts Speak
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It’s a busy time of year now. We here at Accepted are busy helping applicants with the end-of-the-year application crunch and normally I would be enjoying the company of extended family at this joyous time of year. Thanks to COVID, however, our extended family is not gathering in person. I suspect that your celebrations are also somewhat muted this year.
However, depending on where you’re at in the application process, you may still have a move to plan after hearing of an acceptance, applications to complete, decisions to anticipate or make, interviews to prepare for, and next year’s application plans to start working on. And you may even have some work to do.
Consequently, now is an excellent time for an encore show. Since it was one of the most popular med admissions interviews of 2020 and is really relevant to anyone having to draft a personal statement or narrative , I decided to replay the interview with Accepted’s Dr. Mary Mahoney. An English professor, Dr. Mahoney’s specialty is narrative medicine. In simple terms she’s expert in helping you tell your story and that’s the topic for this show.
We’ll run that interview in just a second. Right now I want to take this opportunity to thank you for listening week in and week out, or whenever you find a show you like. There are lots of different ways for you to spend your time, and it’s greatly appreciated that you choose to spend it with AST’s guests and me. So thank you so much!
I also want to wish you a Wonderful Holiday Season and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year, a new year filled with the realization of your educational and professional dreams, and of course acceptances. A year in which COVID and the pandemic become history so that next year, my family and yours can celebrate in person.
Now the interview with Accepted’s Dr. Mary Mahoney.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related Links:
Mary Mahoney's BioFrom Example to Exemplary, a free guide to writing outstanding admissions essaysHow to Answer Med School Questions about COVID-19 and Other Major Events of 2020, a short video9 Secrets to Telling an Attention-Grabbing StoryThe Miraculous 15-Minute ROUGH, ROUGH DraftWhy Should I Spend Money on an Accepted Med School Admissions Consultant?Accepted's Medical Admissions Consulting
Related Shows:
Writing for Medical School: Personal Statements, Activities, and SecondariesHow This Premed Student Got Accepted to Medical School EarlyHow to Apply to the Best Med Schools for YouWake Up to Your Amazing Career Possibilities
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The Kellogg MBAi: Where business and technology intersect [Show summary]
Kate Smith, Assistant Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at Kellogg School of Management, breaks down the school’s brand-new MBAi joint degree and how it prepares students for careers at the intersection of business and technology.
Interview with Kate Smith, Assistant Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the Kellogg School of Management [Show notes]
As if its impressive portfolio of MBA programs (not to mention the pandemic) wasn’t enough to keep Kellogg busy, it also launched a brand-new program at the beginning of this academic year. Let's catch up on what's new at Kellogg and learn about its new accelerated joint MBA at the intersection of business and technology management.
Kate Smith is the Assistant Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at Kellogg School of Management. Kate earned her own MBA from Kellogg in 1998, then worked in marketing for leading brands including General Mills, Quaker Oats, and Pepsi. She returned to Kellogg in 2012.
Let's start with some basic information about the MBAi. First of all, what is it? Who's it for? What's the structure? And what degree do graduates actually receive? [2:05]
Thank you for opening on what is an exciting innovation here at Kellogg. We have just introduced this new program in the Kellogg portfolio of MBA options. The MBAi is a new joint degree. It has been launched by the Kellogg School of Management and the McCormick School of Engineering at Northwestern University. The vision for this degree is that it is at the nexus of business and technology management.
The MBAi is building on a long legacy of innovation and collaboration between Kellogg and McCormick. The two schools launched, years ago, a dual degree called the triple M program, which provides rigorous business education integrated with a strong foundation in design innovation. The MBAi is a new specialized program that is meant for students with prior undergraduate STEM experience, and/or prior work experience in the tech sector. Examples could include having worked as a product manager, a data scientist, a software engineer, an R and D associate. We're going to be building what I'd say is a real nice diversity of backgrounds leveraging tech and STEM expertise so that they can contribute that on a journey to accelerating their knowledge and foundational expertise at this intersection of business and technology.
It's going to be a fast-paced, five-quarter program, which is (I think) very appealing in terms of the speed at which you can pursue and complete your MBA degree experience and immediately jump into what is a rapidly evolving tech sector. The curriculum will include the entire Kellogg MBA core curriculum, as well as technical courses in topics such as machine learning, artificial intelligence, data wrangling, robotics, computational thinking for business. That will also be complemented with the entire Kellogg MBA core curriculum. Students will have the opportunity to round out their degree with just a few electives, choosing between both Kellogg and McCormick.
This program is intensive, with a five-quarter format as opposed to our two-year program, which is a traditional six-quarter program format. There's a little less flexibility on electives and more of an intentional design into the curriculum, integrating the aspects of data analytics, AI, etc., and weaving that throughout the curricular offerings.
The graduates will have one degree conferred by both Kellogg and McCormick. It's a joint degree, so it's different than a dual degree. Our current triple M is a dual degree, one degree conferred by McCormick, the MBA conferred by Kellogg. This is a joint MBA degree called the MBAi, conferred by us both together. You're going to be going five quarters straight through, so you're going to start in the fall, and you're going to take courses for five consecutive quarters and graduate the following December. ...
Learn about The Consortium for Graduate Study in Management, and how it can help YOU gain acceptance at a top business school. [Show summary]
Danni Young, Director of Recruiting for the Consortium for Graduate Study in Management, breaks down how the Consortium helps hundreds of students from target populations get accepted to top MBA programs each year.
Are you planning to apply to top MBA programs? Listen in to discover if applying through The Consortium is right for you. [Show notes]
Danni Young, Director of Recruiting for the Consortium for Graduate Study in Management, earned her bachelor's degree from Lincoln University in Missouri and her MBA from Washington University in St. Louis. Let's hear from her how the Consortium can help you get your MBA.
Let's start with the basics. What is the Consortium? [1:41]
The Consortium is a nonprofit organization that's been around for over 50 years now. Our mission is to ultimately increase the representation of three target populations in our member schools, MBA programs, and in the ranks of management in corporate America. Our mission is focused on African Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Native Americans. Our goal is to ultimately increase representation of those three target populations in our member schools. Over the last 54 years, we've offered $510,000,000 in fellowship support.
What are the benefits of membership? [2:35]
It starts with our common application process. If you're thinking about pursuing your MBA at one of our 20 member schools, we definitely encourage you to use our common application. With that common application, a prospective MBA has the ability to apply to up to six of our member schools with one common application. Obviously, the benefit of that is that you'll save time and money when you're applying to business schools, but you're also having an opportunity to apply for Consortium membership, which is very valuable in itself, and then also to be considered for the Consortium fellowship.
The application process is very streamlined. You don't have to apply directly to our member schools. You can apply through us, and your common application will serve as your application to the business school. It will serve as your application for membership as well as your application for the fellowship consideration. It's a one-stop shop.
Ultimately, the benefit of Consortium membership is that aside from the fellowship consideration, you'll have an opportunity to be a part of our exclusive network. Our network consists of our 20 member schools, roughly 1000 students across our 20 schools currently. We have 10,000 alumni in the US and abroad, and we also have roughly 90 corporate partners that are part of the Consortium as well. That's our network, and that's what membership entails: being a part of that network. Membership also means that you have access to our online career center. It's called CGSM Online, and it's a platform only for Consortium members. It's a great way to have connections with our corporate partners, upload your resume, look at a job, post job opportunities.
That membership means that every new Consortium member has a chance to attend our annual orientation program and career forum. We call it OP. That's the highlight of the Consortium experience. It happens every year in early June. This past year, it was supposed to be in Seattle, Washington. With COVID, we had to transition the conference to virtual, but it worked out really well. But next year, our OP will be in New Orleans. Hopefully, we'll be able to be onsite for that. That's a four- to five-day conference in which new members have a chance to connect with other Consortium students across our schools. They have a chance to attend workshops and seminars on business-related topics. They get a chance to have direct access to our corporate partners and also attend our career forum. So even before they start their MBA program in the fall,
Med applicant Mary Thomas shares her path to medical school acceptance early in this year's application cycle [Show summary]
Mary Thomas will begin her medical school studies next summer after receiving an exceptionally early acceptance in October. She shares how she achieved that early acceptance, along with insights into her application process and the personal passion driving her pursuit of a career in medicine.
How this non-science major gained a spot in medical school [Show notes]
Are you planning to apply to medical school next summer? Would you like to be accepted by November? Mary Thomas did just that. She is happily anticipating the start of medical school after being accepted in October. (Yes, you read that right!)
Mary graduated from Pitzer College in 2019, took a couple of gap years, and applied this cycle to medical school. Let's learn more specifically how Mary got her first acceptance to medical school in October of this most extraordinary year.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and where you grew up? [1:56]
I grew up in Edmonds, a suburb outside of Seattle. I grew up with two older siblings. I grew up with my parents being really involved with their jobs, so I spent a lot of time alone growing up. I was a really avid reader, and that was something that led me to become really passionate about social justice in high school. That is how I ended up going to Pitzer College in Southern California, because I knew it was a school that really emphasized social justice in its curriculum. I ended up going down there for college, and it was a really good fit for me, and it was a big part of how I ended up pursuing a career in medicine.
How did you decide to pursue a career in medicine? What were some of the formative experiences? [2:39]
My older sister, we've always been really close. She's in medical school right now, and that was something that was always in my mind as something that I might be interested in. But I would say I didn't become really driven towards it until I was in college. I started working with a volunteer organization, a grassroots women's mental health group. I was working with these women that came from really challenging backgrounds and faced a lot of really difficult circumstances, and I was a really passionate volunteer for that organization. I was there for the entire three years, starting my sophomore year of college. I was totally devoted. I think I missed maybe three of our weekly meetings the entire time that I worked with them.
As a volunteer, what did you do with these women? [3:29]
We had our weekly meetings, totally community-led, where we would do a wide range of activities like meditation. Sometimes we did things like yoga. We did a unit on dance therapy. We would do art therapy. We would have a lot of discussions. We didn't really call it group therapy, but discussions where we were able to share a little bit about experiences that other people might not understand outside of that community. My volunteer work was helping plan these weekly meetings. Sometimes we'd have presentations about certain therapeutic techniques and things like that. That was my role with that organization, and I loved working with them.
Though I was a super devoted volunteer, I felt like I didn't have that much to offer. That was what made me realize that medicine would be a really powerful career for me to pursue because the women in this group didn't have a lot of access to healthcare. I realized that maybe that's something that I would want to pursue to be able to give even more to this group. I felt as just a college student, I didn't have that much to give, even though I really wanted to help and it was such an awesome organization.
Were the challenges that these women faced mostly financial? Emotional? Socioeconomic?
It was a mental health group, but specifically a group for Latina immigrants.
Can business school support an entrepreneurial venture? [Show summary]
James Chance, a 2019 London Business School MBA graduate, reveals how his experience at LBS impacted his path as an entrepreneur, along with how he’s transforming online privacy protection through his startup, yourself.online.
Learn how entrepreneur James Chance launched his start-up while at London Business School. [Show notes]
James Chance graduated from the University of Bristol in 2011 with a degree in mechanical engineering. He then worked as a strategy consultant for Accenture UK, until he joined Google in 2016. He earned his MBA at London Business School in 2019, which is where he also launched yourself.online, his startup. We're going to learn more about James's MBA path and experience, as well as about the launching of yourself.online and how it can help you maintain your privacy.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, and what you like to do for fun? [2:03]
I grew up in Central London, not too far from the City, the financial district, right in the center, quite close to St. Paul's. That was a real eye-opener in terms of this very fast-paced world, and growing up, I was fortunate enough to, from that experience, see a lot of things, arts, culture, different businesses, all sorts of different stuff as a kid and as a teenager. When I reached the end of secondary school, then I decided I wanted to get out of London and go to the University of Bristol, as a change of scenery.
In terms of what I like to do for fun, I've always been really passionate about traveling. I was fortunate enough to have a few occasions where I've traveled for work and worked in different countries, the US, Australia. But then I’ve also done more adventurous travels as well. I was fortunate enough, with a friend of mine in 2011, after I graduated from college, to drive halfway around the world from London to Mongolia in a car we bought on eBay for just under a thousand dollars. It's an adventure called the Mongol Rally, which was great fun. And I've always been trying to find those sorts of, not quite as adventurous, but trips that are a little bit off the beaten track. But unfortunately that's all on hold this year, but big plans for next year, hopefully. Next year, post-pandemic, I'd really like to do more of South America, since it's not really somewhere I've explored much. I'd really like to do some of the Argentina, Brazil, bits of Peru as well.
You worked as a strategy consultant for Accenture for almost four years, then for Google as an analytical consultant, and also in e-commerce for a family business in Norway. With all these different experiences, why did you decide you wanted or needed an MBA? [3:50]
I first started to think about doing an MBA when I was in consulting. This is something throughout, really: I had come into business coming from an engineering background, so coming from a technical background, where my quantitative skills and analytical skills were good, but I didn't have that much grounding in terms of finance, management, stuff like that. And I was fine for probably, I would say, the first few years of my career. But I found when I was at Google, I was fortunate enough to be brought into some really high-profile meetings with some of our senior clients, the CMOs of some of the largest e-commerce companies in the world, and stuff like that. Fantastic experience, but I was sitting at some of these meetings and I thought, I don't know how you work out marketing ROI. There were things that I just didn't have the fundamental business knowledge around. I could do the maths and things like that, and solve problems, but there were broader things I'd like to expand my skill base at and expand my fundamental background knowledge.
LISTEN: Encore: Is an MBA Worth It, or Is the Sky Falling Down on the MBA Degree? >>
And then on top of that, I'd always had throughout my business days a kind of back-...
Learn what the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine adcom looks for in applicants [Show summary]
Paul White, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, dispels common misconceptions about the program and explains what applicants can expect from an admissions process altered by COVID-19.
What makes Johns Hopkins School of Medicine unique, and how can YOU show your fit? [Show notes]
Do you want to know how to get into Johns Hopkins School of Medicine? Are you wondering what its curriculum is really like, and how it has adapted to COVID? Johns Hopkins School of Medicine’s Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs is here with answers.
Before arriving at Johns Hopkins, Paul White attended Yale for undergrad and Georgetown for his law degree. He has worked in admissions, both undergrad and med, since 1979. Since 2012, he has served the applicant community as the Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs at Johns Hopkins and made a previous appearance on Admissions Straight Talk in 2016.
Can we start out with an overview of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine program, focusing on its distinctive elements? [1:50]
Johns Hopkins has a wonderful educational program. Hopkins is one of the schools that really pioneered prerequisites for medical school, and the Flexner Report, which came out in 1910, said Hopkins was one of the schools that did it right, and we've never sat on our laurels. So we're always asking, are we keeping current? Are we teaching students what they need to know to work with patients? A few years ago, easily 12 years ago now, Hopkins completely revised its curriculum to focus more on the social determinants of disease.
We incorporate that throughout the curriculum when our students come to Hopkins. You have a course that begins right after orientation that focuses on healthcare disparities. There are several intersession courses you'll have between major components, like anatomy and so forth. But the very first one focuses on healthcare disparities and brings in someone from the community who talks about their issues, and so forth. We also have our students do an ambulatory longitudinal clerkship later in their first year, which gets them out into the community and working alongside a physician who works with patients from underserved populations.
Continuing with that, we integrate, throughout the curriculum, the social sciences, ethics, public health, and interprofessional education. We give our students opportunities to do research. Many of them have already had research prior to coming to Hopkins. Although it's not required, I would say easily 95 or 96% have had research prior to their matriculation. But by the time they graduate from Hopkins, easily 99% will have research, and nearly 99% will have a publication by the time they graduate from Hopkins. So that has really strengthened the profile of our students, which was pretty strong to begin with, but it has really made students that much more attuned to what's going on in the world and ready to address it using scientific methodology.
When you talk about a longitudinal ambulatory clerkship, what are they doing? [4:55]
I think of it as advanced clinical shadowing, and actually in the community working with the physician. But rather than being a pre-medical student, they're actually medical students, and it is something which they are evaluated on as part of their curriculum as well. Who they see depends on who the physician is seeing as part of the clerkship. That's why it's several weeks rather than a two-time event.
What’s a common misconception about Johns Hopkins that you would like to dispel? [5:36]
That the only thing we're interested in is research. That is a misconception that can impact how someone is viewed in the admissions process. Even though I am not a physician, I'm a lawyer by training, I want to make sure that the students who come to Hopkin...
Learn what's new at Berkeley Haas, as well as tips for crafting admissions-worthy applications. [Show summary]
Eric Askins, the newly appointed Executive Director of Admissions at UC Berkeley Haas, explores the school’s full-time MBA program and its admissions policies, as well as how it’s adapting the MBA experience to COVID-19.
Interested in applying to Berkeley Haas? Read on for info about special programs and application advice. [Show notes]
UC Berkeley Haas has a new Executive Director of Admissions: Eric Askins, formerly Haas’s Senior Associate Director of Admissions. He’s here today to explore Haas’s full-time MBA program, as well as how the school is adapting to COVID-19.
Can you give an overview of the Berkeley Haas full-time MBA program for those listeners who aren't that familiar with it and focus on its more distinctive elements? [2:37]
The first place to start is our location. Based in the San Francisco Bay area, our program is incredibly close to the center of innovation that exists out here. I think some of that is probably evident if you look at our outcomes. Berkeley Haas has graduates in tech. About 15 to 20% of our students each year are going into startups. But if you were to ask us for the most defining feature of our program, it's likely our defining leadership principles (Question the status quo. Confidence without attitude. Students always. Beyond yourself.). It's a set of culture-forward initiatives that we have here, about 10 years old now, that really hold our core values up-front. You'll find, I think, very few programs that lead with values, and we're certainly one of them.
What's new at Berkeley Haas (other than lockdown, the pandemic, and smoky air)? [4:08]
Certainly, all of those things are new, and they are challenges. But there's a silver lining in there too. Let's talk about some of our academic programs first. Chief among the things that we launched in pilot mode last year that are truly new this year are a joint degree with our school of engineering, an MBA/MEng program. This program is two years, so no additional time. It is a cohort model that is part of the MBA cohort, so it doesn't operate separately, which is really a great opportunity to continue to stay connected with the broader community here at Haas. Additionally, the students select from among seven different engineering programs to really give you that niche opportunity that you might be seeking and give you the skills that you need to take advantage of some of the great opportunities that exist in the career world.
You can go, let's say, into electrical engineering/MBA, artificial intelligence/MBA, all kinds of different engineering specialties, including nuclear engineering, if that's what you're looking for. Chemical engineering. We took a nuclear engineer this year. This program launched in pilot mode last year. We didn't recruit heavily for it. We simply listed it on our website. We are beginning to look at expanding it. We now have a cohort of about 30 students, 15 in each class here. There is a community. Although it's new, it's new with a community, which we think is really essential. Again, we're very community-focused here at Haas, and we want you to be learning alongside others and learning from others as well as from our faculty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMWjFryl0g&feature=youtu.be
How do you see the MBA/MEng program growing for the entering class of 2021? [6:00]
I think 15 feels like a pretty healthy number for us. We may move it up to 20 if we see qualified candidates in and around that space. We probably won't move it beyond that. We have a successful joint degree already with our MBA/MPH, which is a master's in public health. That's been running for about 10 years and has an incredible community around it, and we typically don't go over about 20 students in that group either. The goal here is not to create little segments of the MBA,
M2 Sotonye Douglas shares how she never lost sight of her dream to become a doctor. [Show summary]
Sotonye Douglas describes herself as an “imperfect” medical school applicant who nevertheless became a student at Quinnipiac Netter School of Medicine, overcoming tremendous barriers in the process.
An "imperfect" applicant discusses her path to medical school. [Show notes]
There's a myth out there that med students never fail, never drop a class, and all have high MCATs and GPAs. They're perfect. Or they don't get in.
Our guest today is determined and hardworking, but she has also overcome significant challenges on the way to medical school. She doesn't fit the myth of the perfect med student, but she is nevertheless a proud M2.
Sotonye Douglas is a second year MD student at Quinnipiac Netter School of Medicine. She was born to immigrant parents from Jamaica and Nigeria and grew up in Brooklyn in New York City. From a young age, she wanted to be a doctor, but working her way through high school and college made it hard to get good grades, much less prep for the MCAT. Yet today, she is an M2. Let's hear her story of hard work, perseverance, and tremendous determination directly from her.
Can you tell us a little bit more about your background outside of medicine? When did you start working? What do you like to do for fun? [1:59]
To go back in time a little bit, I did start working when I was in high school. I was working, but I was also student body president. I was also a cheerleader. I was very, very busy even then. I think that's when I started learning how to multitask. That's what kicked it off in high school: me learning how to be professional and how to juggle and how to run from one thing to the next. But for fun, I like to spend time with family and loved ones when I can because I do have a lot of family internationally. I love visiting family and trying to get away and travel. That's my release.
How did you figure out that you wanted to be a doctor? [2:56]
From a very young age, I found this interest in science. It just seemed so interesting to me. I also speak about having a very deep and robust interest in art. As a kid, when people would ask me, I would say, "Oh, I want to be a doctor." But as I started to get older and as I got into junior high school, I had this opportunity: There's this program that is no longer in New York City called the Gifted Program. It was for students who were talented and gifted, basically students that were performing higher on exams and stuff. They had special classes and things worked into our schedule. I had the opportunity to be exposed to a Saturday program for anatomy, and there were models and stuff. They brought different organs. And I had never seen any of that before. I knew what organs were, I knew what a heart was, I knew what a brain was. I knew what these things were, but I had never seen models. I would have been around 11 or 12. And seeing the models, they reminded me of sculptures. The arteries are in red; the veins are in blue. It was seeing the vibrancy and real organs. Since being in anatomy lab, I know that that's not actually what it looks like, at least in anatomy lab, but just seeing it at that age, it caught my attention because it reminded me of a sculpture.
And I think at that point, I started seeing the connections between art and science, and that anatomy class solidified medicine for me. That's when I was getting ready to go into high school, and I said, "I need to be in a high school that's going to help me continue this." My old guidance counselor and the high school secretary, they remind me every time they see me: "I remember your first day at school, you came in and you said that you wanted to be a doctor." They remind me all the time now when they see me. It was just something that I felt very strongly. And despite everything that happened, I’ve always remembered having this overwhelming feeling of,
How can MBA hopefuls- especially those who are members of special applicant groups- best position themselves for acceptance? [Show summary]
A valued and recent addition to Accepted’s staff, Dr. Christie St-John reveals what her career as an admissions director taught her about applying to business school (particularly for veterans, international students, and those from underrepresented groups), plus what’s ahead for the future of MBA programs.
MBA admissions advice from an admissions insider [Show notes]
Previously, Dr. Christie St-John was a guest on our chats as Associate Director of Admissions for Tuck, and more recently on Admissions Straight Talk as director of Vanderbilt Owen’s MBA Recruiting and Admissions. Now, this MBA admissions veteran just joined Accepted as an MBA and Graduate Admissions Consultant. Today, I'm going to speak with her about MBA admissions and graduate admissions in general, as well as specific subgroups, including veterans, international students, and underrepresented groups. I'm also going to get her insight into the impact of COVID and business schools going test-optional.
How did you get into Admissions? [2:10]
It was one of those peculiar things about who you know and being at the right place at the right time. I was doing my PhD at Vanderbilt and a friend of mine in the Spanish department had been recruited to the business school to run their program that they were doing in Latin America. When she was promoted to do that, she called me and said, "They're looking for somebody to fill my former job with exchange programs, and they want somebody with international experience, and you'd be perfect." And I thought, the business school, really? I was on my way to becoming a university professor of languages.
So I went over and talked with them. I convinced them that I knew the difference between Saks Fifth Avenue and Goldman Sachs. I had worked in the business world before I went back to school and in the U.S. and in Europe. It was not like business was a strange thing to me, but I'd never really known this kind of job was available. Had I known, I would've started it years ago because I had only been in the position at Vanderbilt about a week, and the Dean came down to me and said, "Okay, you're going to go to Miami with Lori on Friday, and then you're going to South America for a month." I said, "Okay, let me just dust off my passport and I'll be ready to go.”
That was the start of it. It's been the most fun job I've ever had. It’s almost like not really working, although it is; it's tiring, going through all the time zones. There's a lot of work to do, but it's been great because I love getting to know all the students and seeing where they're from and being able to talk to them about, "Yes, I've been to Delhi." "Yes, I've been to Seoul" or wherever it might be. That helps, I think, create a rapport with them.
You have a wealth of experience in MBA and grad admissions. How do you feel about moving to the other side of the admissions desk? [4:30]
As you know, when I was at Tuck, I invited a lot of the MBA admissions counselors up to visit us, and I got a lot of flack from schools about that: "Oh, how can you invite those people? You can't do business with them." And I said, "You know what? They're providing a service. And if we want them to talk about our schools to people, they need to know about our schools. And that's why I invited them." And I think it was really good, not only for the consultants who came, but it was certainly good for me to understand more about what you were doing out there. It was all a bit vague. “Why do people need help getting their applications done? It's so simple.” But it really isn't.
It's a terribly competitive area, more so now than it used to be when I first was applying to graduate school. It is something I think that's necessary. People don't realize that you really have to stop and think about what you're doing and why you're...
Azan Virji discusses his path to Harvard Medical School, and challenges faced by international medical students [Show summary]
Med student Azan Virji explores the unique challenges he faced as an international student applying to Harvard Medical School, as well as his mission to mentor students like himself through the organization he founded, F-1 Doctors.
F1-Doctors: A virtual community connecting international medical school applicants with mentors who are current international students [Show notes]
Our guest today is Azan Virji. Azan grew up in Tanzania and came to the U.S. as a student at Yale University, where he studied molecular, cellular, and developmental biology and was a Yale Global Health Scholar. He earned his MPH in 2019, also from Yale, and then went on to begin his medical studies at Harvard in 2019. Knowing all too well the difficulties facing international applicants to U.S. medical schools, which were exacerbated by the corona pandemic and visa policy changes, Azan founded F-1 Doctors in May 2020. Its mission is to provide a network of international medical students, dental students, residents, and attendings to international applicants who are struggling to pursue their med school dreams.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background? [2:21]
I was born in Kenya, which is neighboring Tanzania, but then I grew up in Tanzania because my mom is from Kenya and my dad is from Tanzania. I think of myself as an East African baby, and I went to high school there as well. I spent 18 years of my life there and went to high school in Mwanza, Tanzania. It was a pretty small high school; my graduating class at the end was almost 24 students. In school, I was the person who would always volunteer to do things. I was always really interested in leadership activities and getting leadership experiences. I was what we called the Head Boy at the time. It's based on the British curriculum, where you're basically the link between the students and the faculty. And then I was also a really big theater nerd. I used to do plays regularly and used to sing a lot. On top of all of that, I was really hard working. I wanted to focus on academics and really wanted to do good in school.
Then, I applied to colleges, mostly here in the United States. The reason for that was twofold. I think it's pretty obvious that some of the best institutions of higher learning are here in the United States. Some of the world-class research happens here, and I really wanted to be a part of that environment. But on top of that, I also come from a very low-income background. I'm a first generation, low-income student, and I really needed financial support to attend a place of higher learning. It's something that I couldn't afford on my own. And in the United States, particularly, a lot of colleges here do have a lot of generous financial aid packages that they offer to attract international students from the rest of the world. I got a great financial aid package to attend Yale. That's how I finally found myself, after never having left East Africa, in the US for the very first time, almost six years ago now.
It was definitely quite a cultural shock in the beginning, trying to get used to the different way of learning. I think that was really hard for me, particularly when it comes to writing essays in English. That's something I really struggled with when I first came here because the way I was taught to write essays was very different. I found myself struggling a lot when it came to English writing classes, when I got here. The way you phrase your arguments and the way you structure your paragraphs just really got to me.
And I also found myself underestimating the level of intensity of classes. When I came in, I'd already done organic chemistry before, so I thought I'd be fully well-equipped for sophomore organic chemistry. So I joined a sophomore level course, even though there was a freshman level course that was availab...
Wondering how to write about the tumultuous events of 2020 in your application essays? [Show summary]
Accepted Founder Linda Abraham offers a framework for discussing COVID-19, the events of 2020, and their impact on your life in your undergraduate or graduate program applications.
Your application should include information about your experience of and response to COVID-19 and the other events of 2020, whether or not you are explicitly asked for it. [Show Notes]
I want to address something that I've been thinking a lot about. I think that my topic is not only of concern to me; I strongly suspect it's of concern to you, too, and something that's on everyone's mind: how to deal with COVID and the tumultuous year 2020.
.It's a pretty big topic, isn't it? I'm going to narrow my topic a little bit. I have neither a cure nor a preventive vaccine for the disease. I also don't have cures for the other ills that have struck the world this year. I'm going to suggest how you should address these events in your application, regardless of whether you are applying to undergraduate or graduate programs, or if you're asked about COVID and year 2020 in an essay or in an interview (or in a video interview).
How should you address COVID and the other events of 2020 in your application? There's two aspects to the question, to any COVID or 2020 kind of question, or any of the questions that we're dealing with right now. The first part of it is, how have you been affected? And the second one is, how have you responded? In other words, how have you acted to address or alleviate the pain, stress, and suffering of others?
How to address COVID-19 in your application [2:37]
Let's deal first with COVID, which I think is an overarching theme for this year. There are plenty of lemons with COVID. There're plenty of difficulties. There's plenty of pain. There's plenty of illness, and death. I hope it's not true, but it's quite possible that you or a loved one has had COVID, and maybe you didn't have a light case. Maybe you were sick for several weeks. Maybe you were unemployed or furloughed for all or part of the time since the first shutdown in March.
Moving more specifically to admissions, many of you have experienced the inability to take tests when you planned to take them, especially if you were trying to take the MCAT in March, April, May, or most of June. Perhaps you've had planned volunteer activities canceled, or your internships postponed or moved online. Maybe you had classes that you wanted to take for grades to boost your GPA and suddenly, they're pass/fail because that's what happened to a lot of courses in the spring. Maybe you are taking classes online via Zoom when you really would do much better in an in-person, traditional classroom environment. That's certainly happening to tons and tons of people. So there are lemons there.
Perhaps you're stagnating at work because of reduced opportunity for advancement and interesting projects. And I think everybody is dealing with loneliness and monotony and the sameness of not going out. I am above the age where I'm not supposed to go into stores and go into public places. But I know many young people, either out of an abundance of caution, concern for their relatives, or their own health conditions, are also limited in where they go. And everybody is more limited than they were a year ago.
Is there any lemonade to be made from this? Yes, there actually is. It provides enormous opportunity for community involvement, even with social distancing. What are the opportunities? It can be contact tracing, suicide prevention, an outdoor activity with a youth group that you're very committed to, delivering food to the vulnerable, organizing organizations to reduce food insecurity in a time of high unemployment and homelessness. Any of these activities would show you taking initiative and assuming responsibility in your community or in society for cultural and societal problems...
Welcome to the 386th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me.
I am taking a week off for family time this week. As a result, I decided to air an encore of one of our most popular shows of 2020: How to Apply to the Best Med Schools for You.
I chose it not only because of its popularity, but because it’s critical that medical students apply to programs where they are likely to be accepted. A solid understanding of the interplay between your priorities and qualifications as well as the medical schools’ criteria for admissions is critical to your success.
If you like this episode and want to test out whether you are competitive at your target medical schools, take the free Medical School Admissions Quiz. It’s a brief assessment that will give you insight into your competitiveness as well as suggestions for improving your qualifications and competitiveness. Take it today!
Thanks as always for listening to Admissions Straight Talk. I’ll talk to you again next week! In the meantime, here is How to Apply to the Best Med Schools for You.
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related links:
Med School Selectivity Index: Avg MCAT Scores, GPAs, and Acceptance RatesAce Your Med School Application: A Live Q&A with 3 Med School ExpertsMedical School Admissions QuizWhat Do Medical Schools Look for in Applicants?Accepted’s Medical School Admissions Advising
Related shows:
Focus On FitApplying to Med School During COVID-19Med School Admissions Veteran Shares Her Experience: How to Get In
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What makes Dell Medical School unique? [Show summary]
Joel Daboub, Director of Admissions and Records for Dell Medical School at UT Austin, explores the school’s unique curriculum and what applicants need to know about Dell Medical’s approach to admissions.
Find out about Dell's one-of-a-kind approach to medical education, and what adcom members are seeking in applicants. [Show notes]
Today's guest is Joel Daboub, Director of Admissions and Records for Dell Medical School at UT Austin. He earned his MBA at the University of North Texas and worked at UNT's Health Science Center as Assistant Dean of Admissions from 2004 to 2015. He then joined the brand-new medical school at UT Austin, the Dell Medical School, which we're going to learn about right now.
Can you give an overview of the Dell Medical MD program? [1:30]
I’ll point to our curriculum and describe that first because that's one of the most unique aspects of Dell Medical School. As a brand-new medical school, one of the things that we had an opportunity to do was to rethink medical education. What are the challenges that physicians face today that may not necessarily be addressed with a traditional medical education? And in particular, how do we reinvent healthcare? What skills do clinicians need today to not only take care of their patients, but also manage the healthcare system? And I say “we” euphemistically. The greater minds in medical education looked at curriculums from across the country and across other countries as well to see what skills physicians need to develop. How could we design a curriculum to meet that?
The first thing that many students recognize is that our basic science curriculum is only 12 months long. Historically, in a Flexner-like model, that would be at a two-year length of basic science education. That allows us to then use the second year for clinical education. Historically, that would be your third year. Having our students go through that training in that sequence, that opens up the third year to a lot of marvelous opportunities, especially since we're part of the University of Texas, and there are so many great training programs at the university that can be beneficial for future leaders. Making that third year available for a dual degree or research activity really gives our students an opportunity to expand their skills in that third year that you historically would not necessarily get in medical training.
Particularly if you’re going on to manage or work in management in a hospital setting, you may choose to do the MBA program, for instance. We have a brand-new health policy degree opening up with the LBJ School for that year. We have a health transformation degree that's just brand-new in our school for that year that's actually created by Elizabeth Teisberg, who was one of the co-authors of the book about healthcare transformation that's really changed how we think about managing healthcare. That third year really expands the opportunity for our students to gain additional skills that one would not necessarily get in medical training but we believe are necessary if you're going to be at the table, making decisions about how healthcare is going to change. We are starting to think also about not just the process of using fee-payer models to run healthcare, but about how healthcare outcomes are more important drivers than procedural-based or frequency of activity.
And then the fourth year is much more traditional. That is when our students begin to navigate the residency selection or search process. They may do away rotations along with additional clinical training as they continue to grow as clinicians and prepare for their first year as interns. We do have them go through two acting internships during that year. This is a level of clinical training that is a much higher expectation than a traditional level of training a trainee would experience as a student.
https://youtu.be/HGap9E4OJn0
Law school admissions experts Linda Abraham and Christine Carr share wisdom about how to achieve application success during COVID-19 [Show summary]
In part two of this joint interview, TextMax Prep’s Branden Frankel and Jelena Woehr interview Accepted’s Linda Abraham and Christine Carr on what applicants should expect entering the law school admissions process.
Click here for Part 1: The Test Prep Experts’ Guide to the LSAT >>
How will the coronavirus pandemic impact law school admissions this year? [Show notes]
[Jelena] Since the COVID-19 pandemic began, have you noticed more people interested in applying to law schools, fewer, or no change? What are students' feelings about applying to law school from your point of view right now? [0:37]
Linda: We're seeing more law school applicants this year. There's no question that we're seeing more inquiries, and I think it'll ultimately significantly increase our law school admissions businesses this year.
[Branden] Are applicants bringing different concerns to you than they were bringing before? [1:26]
Christine: Not necessarily. Actually, with respect to the pandemic specifically, I'm generally the one that's bringing that up and asking questions as to how they're informing their decisions based on the current state of affairs and remote learning, etc. I've been seeing that most of the applicants are asking the same types of questions. Personal statements are still top of mind for many people, and how to get started, so it's not necessarily any different right now.
Linda: I think there is some concern about starting law school online and the quality of their education, especially if that continues. On the other hand, there seems to be a lot of optimism about a vaccine coming out in early 2021. So for the people applying this cycle, by the time they start law school, hopefully much of the population will have been vaccinated and the restrictions that we're dealing with now, we won't be dealing with.
[Jelena] Should online learning lead to any changes in an applicant's application strategy? Should they be highlighting different traits about themselves than they would in a pre-pandemic world? [2:58]
Linda: I think, in general, adaptability is something that everybody is valuing a little bit more these days. I don't think that's going to fundamentally change what law schools look for in a law school personal statement. It might change a little bit. If you're showing that adaptability, grit, perseverance, and resilience, those qualities have become more important in the last six months. But fundamentally, I don't think you're going to see big, big, big changes in the core of the personal statement.
Christine: I think that adaptability piece is a big piece, and that's a thread that we carried pre-pandemic, that ability to take on many things and handle different aspects and multitask and think critically about different things. When I was working with applicants from March, when the bottom fell out, essentially, and people were making decisions about where to go, I was counseling many of our applicants to look at schools for their adaptability, how they handled themselves and how that frontline admissions office was taking questions and handling questions. Are they forthcoming with information? And are they keeping in contact? Because that's setting the tone for the type of community that you're going to be joining, and in order for you to be successful, ultimately, you want to be in a community that is able to adapt to those types of changes as well, right alongside you.
You don't want to be the only one that's adapting and showing those characteristics. You want the community that you're joining to already be setting that tone. So I was counseling many of my clients to be very cognizant of how you're being treated as an applicant, and how the offices are moving forward when they're making the transition to online, because it was on the fly.
LSAT experts discuss how to prepare for the LSAT, LSAT vs GRE, the LSAT-Flex, and more [Show summary]
TestMax Prep’s Branden Frankel and Jelena Woehr, hosts of the Legal Level podcast, explore what LSAT test-takers need to know about testing options, recent changes, and prep strategies.
Click here for Part 2: Two Admissions Experts on the Latest in Law School Admissions >>
TestMax Prep’s Branden Frankel and Jelena Woehr talk about all things LSAT [Show notes]
Law school acceptance isn't just dependent on your LSAT, or your GPA, or your personal statement, or even where you apply. All those elements come into play. Part one of this joint, two-part episode with TestMax Prep’s Branden Frankel and Jelena Woehr, who also host the Legal Level podcast, will cover them all. Adding her law school admissions expertise to the show is Christine Carr, Accepted's law school admissions guru and former Associate Director of Admissions at Boston University Law School.
Jelena and Branden, how did you both get involved with LSAT prep? [1:58]
Jelena: The LSAT was intended to be an off-ramp out of a tech career for me. I had thought about it for a number of years. In fact, recently I went back into an old email that I no longer have and realized I'd been talking about taking the LSAT in my emails years ago, way earlier than I ever thought that I was interested in it, with some random guy from OkCupid that I was emailing back and forth with. But in 2017, I was tired of working in startups and thought I should finally go ahead and take the LSAT.
To my surprise, I actually really, really enjoyed the LSAT. I got a 178 on the June 2017 test, and the process of studying for it actually taught me a lot that I had not picked up earlier in my life about study skills and my own learning style. I ended up liking the LSAT so much that I couldn't really quite figure out what I would do as a lawyer, so I never went to law school, but I just started teaching the LSAT. I'm still really loving it. That's my journey.
Branden: My journey started earlier, as my life started much earlier, because I'm much older. I studied for the LSAT first in the early 2000s. I ended up going to law school in 2007. I taught the LSAT a little bit before I went to law school. The LSAT was always up my alley because I was a philosophy major as an undergrad, and I was really into symbolic logic. I took a lot of symbolic logic classes, so when I studied for the LSAT, it was kind of close to what I had been doing as an undergrad, which is not the same for just about anybody who has any other degree, and then I went to law school. I practiced law for a few years. I had a kid and a wife at one point, and then my wife and I split up. I had my daughter half the time, and working in the law firm was just not a flexible way for me to manage my responsibilities as a newfound single parent.
Doing LSAT prep was something that I had done before and I had loved, and it also gave me flexibility, so I came back to it. That was eight years ago at this point, and I've been doing it pretty much straight ever since, and I love the LSAT. I know that makes me weird. To me, it's fun. Not just the logic games are fun, but I mean, I think the exam is fun, and I also really love teaching, and I love getting to interact with students. It's definitely fit into my life as my life has changed, so it's been great for me and I really love it.
Christine, are you also somebody who considered law? [4:43]
Christine: It was the briefest blip. It was very short-lived, right after graduating from undergrad.
One of the questions that we frequently get is, “Should someone go to law school in a recession?” Branden, you started UCLA Law in 2007, when the future looked very rosy for future lawyers, and you graduated in 2010, when the law school job market was the pits. You're not working as a lawyer today. How did you navigate that, and do you regret having gone to law school? [5:10]
Washington University School of Medicine's unique approach to admissions [Show summary]
Dr. Valerie Ratts, Associate Dean for Admissions at Washington University School of Medicine, explores what’s unique about the medical school’s approach to admissions, including what COVID-related changes applicants can expect this year.
Interview with Dr. Valerie Ratts, Associate Dean for Admissions at Washington University School of Medicine [Show notes]
Dr. Valerie Ratts earned her MD at Johns Hopkins, where she also did her residency in obstetrics and gynecology and a fellowship in reproductive endocrinology. She joined the Washington University faculty in 1994 and is currently Associate Dean for Admissions, as well as a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis.
Can you give an overview of Washington University School of Medicine's program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:37]
Washington University School of Medicine is an amazing medical school. The thing that I'm the most proud about right now is that we are about to implement a new curriculum, an innovative curriculum, called the Gateway Curriculum. We're looking at how to educate in medicine a little bit differently. We are going to educate our students while thinking very carefully about what their passion and pathway will be in medicine. We will be working to enhance their exposure to the areas of academic medicine that we think are very important for physicians. That includes research, medical education, advocacy, inquiry, and innovation. The other thing about WashU that we think is particularly important, besides our science, is that this is a place where we pride ourselves on creating a culture that is incredibly supportive for our students, a culture of collegiality and collaboration.
Academic medicine implies that the graduates are going to become professors or continue doing research. Is that a focus, or do you see your grads going into primary care? [2:56]
That's part of the new curriculum, recognizing that physicians go into various areas of medicine, and that we're ready to support them and enhance their education to be ready for those various areas of medicine (again, medical education, research, inquiry, innovation, and advocacy). We want to expose them to those areas, give them the skill set that they need and the experiences, so that when they graduate, when they complete their residency and fellowship, they can use that skill set to go into a career in all of those different areas. That's how we look at academic medicine. It's not just research, though research is very important.
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You have one of the biggest medical sciences programs, don't you? [3:52]
Yes. The MSTP program is a signature program here. It's one of the longest running and largest physician sciences programs in the country. Research has placed us on the map here at WashU, but I always say, research is more than just pipetting away in the lab. Basic science is incredibly important. And we are very good at that. But research, I always say, is asking a question, collecting data of some type, whether it's basic science data or question surveys, and using that data to answer the questions and think of more.
Physicians have to be involved in making sure that we get healthcare to the population. That's particularly important. We know that there are social determinants of health, and we are positioned to make a difference, and we think that we need to actively teach our students how to do that, give them the skill set, give them the exposure.
What is the WashU secondary like? [5:14]
The WashU secondary application is a pretty short application. In fact, we pride ourselves on having one of the shorter secondary applications. It's actually part of our claim to fame there. It has a little bit of demographic information.
Stanford GSB grads discuss MBA admissions, entrepreneurship and affordable car loans [Show summary]
Nicholas Hinrichsen and Chris Coleman, startup co-founders who earned their MBAs at Stanford GSB, return to Admissions Straight Talk to share what they’ve accomplished as entrepreneurs since earning their MBAs.
Chris Coleman and Nicholas Hinrichsen share how their experiences at GSB helped them grow their startups [Show notes]
So, you want to be an entrepreneur in something using tech. Or maybe you're interested in tech product management. Should you get an MBA? Is it a waste of time and money that you could better spend learning on your own, founding your own business? Two Stanford GSB grads are here to share their perspective, reflecting seven years of successful entrepreneurial experience since earning their MBAs.
Nicholas Hinrichsen and Chris Coleman, who were previously guests on Admission Straight Talk in Episode 88, both graduated from Stanford GSB in 2013. While at GSB, they founded Carlypso, which was acquired by Carvana in 2017. Since then, they’ve founded a new venture, WithClutch.
When we last spoke, you both had recently graduated from Stanford GSB, and you were running Carlypso, which you had founded as MBA students. What's happened since then? Can you bring us up to date? [2:09]
Chris: A lot has happened since then. When we talked, I think we were going through Y Combinator. We actually ended up pivoting the business into a new model since that time. Carlypso was this sort of peer-to-peer car sales platform. We ended up pivoting to being a direct wholesale channel where we sold cars, leasing to companies that can't sell directly to the consumer but have to sell through these wholesale auctions. We became a virtual dealer of sorts. We built software that said, "Okay, what are the cars that we think are good for consumers? How do we figure out how to use performance marketing to our advantage so that we can market the right car to the right consumer?"
We had a pretty good handle on that. It was a good business. It wasn't a great business because it required very, very heavy operations, actually moving around 4,000-pound pieces of metal all the time, rather than bits and bytes. The software that we built ended up being more valuable than our end-value prop to consumers. And so we sold the software to Carvana, and ended up joining as executives there. Nick ran the sell-to-Carvana business of buying cars from consumers, and I ran product for the initial part of the consumer experience, from the homepage, search page, and product pages.
We spent three years there. It was a great three years of seeing the company go from early public company to the company everyone else is aiming to beat. That was a really fun ride, and we got to know some of the executives there very well who were super helpful and had very different skill sets than us. Now we've gone off to start a new thing again. Me and Nick have just started WithClutch, which is sort of a platform for saving consumers on their automotive expenses.
Nick: Our first employee at Carlypso ended up applying to business school when we sold. So, business school plays lots of roles in our lives. The person at Carvana who we touched base with to “compare notes” (when what we really wanted was to sell the company) happened to be one of our classmates from GSB. I had worked on a student-run event with her, and Chris had been on a student trip with her. Thankfully, GSB reappeared in our lives multiple times. I don't think we would have made it to where we are without our experience at the GSB, frankly.
Silicon Valley tends to disparage the MBA. When we spoke in 2013, you were very happy you did your MBA. Do you still think the time you spent at GSB was time well spent? [5:34]
Nick: There are so many dimensions to it. If you go into it thinking it's an academic experience, you'll walk out of it with so much more than what you've learned.
An inside look at the impact of COVID with Darrell Nabers [Show summary]
Darrell Nabers, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment at Loyola University of Chicago's Stritch School of Medicine, shares how the school is adapting its program and admissions policies to life in the time of COVID-19.
Changes to Loyola Stritch's program and admissions practices as a result of the COVID pandemic [Show notes]
Our guest today is Darrell Nabers, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment at Loyola University of Chicago's Stritch School of Medicine. Darrell earned his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from Whittier College and Golden State University, respectively. He then held various admissions positions from 2000 to 2005 before joining the University of Chicago's admissions staff where he served in different roles until 2015. He joined Loyola Chicago Stritch in 2015 as Director of Admissions and became Assistant Dean for Admissions and Recruitment in February 2019. Darrell was a guest on the podcast last year for Episode 325. Our latest interview focuses on the changes to Loyola Stritch's program, and specifically its admissions practices as a result of the COVID pandemic.
How is the Loyola Stritch medical school program different today due to COVID-19 than it was a year ago? [2:19]
It's very different. One example would be the fact that I am speaking to you from my home and not from my office. We as a staff have been working from home since March 20th. There have been discussions about when we'll return to the building. They have not yielded a decision, and because we're part of a larger institution with an undergraduate campus and the graduate campuses, that has to be a unified decision. As a health sciences division, we have been able to advocate for our third and fourth year students to get back into their courses, which has happened.
So we have third years who are doing mostly didactic-structured content for the first couple of months before they begin their rotations. The fourth years had to take a pause on their clerkship training when the COVID crisis hit, and this allowed them to make up the clerkships before we had third years overlapping with them. That's a difficult thing to do, to have two classifications overlap and then the third shift. Once the fourth years make up the clerkship rotations in the next few weeks, then the third years will move into theirs, but they're currently participating in clinical simulations and exercises and mostly virtual content, but we'll be back in the clerkships soon. And then of course, the fourth years move into their sub-I’s and electives.
For the first and second years, we are virtual. So there's an asynchronous curriculum which allows students to log in and conduct their coursework. There are also live lectures that are provided through a virtual platform. The goal is to bring both groups back at some point this year. We have preliminarily determined the early part of October for the first years to be back on, to actually be on campus for the first time. It's just going to require attention to the different health mandates by the state. Our main campus made a plan early to bring undergraduates back to campus, and then this last week we were told that they're not going to have students on campus for the foreseeable future. So again, I think a lot of things are in flux.
When it comes to the decision to reopen the school, talking about changes, obviously we'll be wearing hospital-grade masks, we'd be wearing PPE, and the building will be tied to a hospital, so when we're within the medical school, we'll be wearing masks. There'll be compulsory daily screenings, temperature checks, a questionnaire, and an application that all of us will have on our phones to check in. And obviously, if there are symptoms, if anyone's symptomatic, then there's self-isolation protocols that we have for students. And then for staff, obviously we have protocols for staff and facul...
Chen shares his journey from military intelligence service-member to international MBA student to Accepted admissions consultant [Show summary]
Chen Chadash, Accepted consultant and UCLA Anderson MBA grad, had a unique path to business school as an international student with a background in military service. He shares his insights on life at UCLA Anderson, working as an admissions ambassador, and navigating the MBA application process.
How can an admissions consultant help international applicants understand the MBA application process and submit essays and supporting materials that highlight what adcoms value the most? [Show notes]
Chen Chadash has a fascinating background: He earned his bachelor's in physics and electrical engineering from the Technion in Israel and served in an elite unit in the Israeli military for seven years in intelligence and cybersecurity. He then joined UCLA Anderson in 2016. After interning at Ernst and Young for the summer, he joined full-time in July of 2018. While at UCLA, he was a student admissions ambassador and has leveraged that experience to guide applicants to top MBA programs, including MIT Sloan, Kellogg, Booth, Columbia, INSEAD, London Business School, and UCLA Anderson.
Can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what you like to do for fun? [1:51]
I grew up in Israel, far from here, in Tel Aviv. I recommend everyone who hasn't been there to visit. Obviously, during the COVID pandemic, it's a bit difficult, but once that's over, I highly recommend it. I really like cooking a lot. Even more, eating what I cook. I really enjoy sports. I used to play basketball for many years in high school. And then other than that, I really like extreme sports. I like to try new things here and there like kite surfing, like climbing Mount Everest, scuba diving, stuff like that. I stick with some of them. Some I don't really enjoy, but I do enjoy trying them.
Did you get to the top of Everest? [2:50]
I got to the base camp. It's about 18,000 feet high. Base camp is what basically everyone can do without any special equipment. Beyond that point, it really gets dangerous. You have to get training, oxygen, etc. But base camp is what everyone can do if you don't mind the two weeks of hiking in very difficult conditions.
And then just a couple months ago, I had my first baby. I would call that another extreme experience! But this one caused me to stop everything else that I was doing and focus on that.
Why did you decide to earn an MBA? [3:37]
I was in the military for a long time. After a long military service, which was great and a very fulfilling experience that I wouldn't trade for the world, I felt I had a huge gap in understanding business and how the "real world" works. It was a very different environment. I was looking for a way to bridge that gap as fast as possible and in a way that would be both beneficial career-wise and in a way that I would enjoy. Then living and studying abroad was something that was a dream for me for a long time. Both those things came together. An MBA abroad basically checked all those boxes.
What was the hardest part of the application process for you as an applicant? [4:31]
2015 was when I started thinking about that process. 2016 was when I really started working on my application. First of all, it actually took me some time to really understand what an MBA abroad in the U.S. meant in terms of the application. It's really a funny story. I realized I had to take the GMAT first, so I signed up for the GMAT course, for the English part and engineering and physics. I figured with the quant part, I was going to be okay. But I felt I had some polishing to do on my English skills. So I signed up for this class. On the first day, it was me and some other folks, and the teacher asks, "Have you started working on your application?" I had no idea what she was talking about. There was nothing in my head. Everyone was like,
Zack Timmons integrated business and medicine to take on a social problem facing his community. [Show summary]
Zack Timmons, a fourth-year medical student at Dell Medical School at UT Austin, combined his passion for medicine with his background in business to create Good Apple, an Austin-based produce delivery company on a mission to end food insecurity. Listen to the conversation >>
A med student and social entrepreneur on a mission to alleviate food insecurity in his area [Show notes]
Zack Timmons is a fourth-year medical student at Dell Medical School at the University of Texas at Austin and co-founder and CEO at Good Apple, an Austin-based produce delivery company on a mission to end food insecurity. Since launching Good Apple in November 2019 as a third-year medical student, Zack and his team have delivered over 540,000 pounds of healthy food directly to the doors of over 17,000 people facing food insecurity.
Prior to medical school, Zack attended Rice University where he studied the cognitive sciences and was premed. He later worked for two years as a business analyst at Deloitte Consulting. He plans to pursue an emergency medicine residency, where he hopes to leverage his patient stories in the emergency room to continue building programs and organizations to meet the health needs of our community's most vulnerable residents.
Can you tell us a bit about your background outside of medicine? [2:14]
I grew up near Waco, Texas in a small town just outside of Waco called Robinson, Texas, and lived there with my younger sister and my two parents who are a huge influence on my life. My dad is a commercial tire salesman and my mom's a social worker. I think they've really instilled the importance of getting to know people and service in the community. They're a huge influence on me.
I always really enjoyed the outdoors. I think that's something I still enjoy today, from downhill skiing to long-distance backpacking. Most recently, my partner and I completed about 300 miles of the Pacific Crest Trail in California. Cooking is also a huge hobby. I spent a little bit of time in the Northeast prior to medical school and got to know Marc Vetri, who is an incredible pasta chef in Philadelphia. So have recently been making a lot of homemade pasta, which is great.
When did you decide to become a doctor? [3:38]
Probably when I was a senior in high school, I made the decision that I was at least interested in medicine. I will say one thing is that my passions for medicine have definitely changed and matured the more I get into the field. I think there are so many reasons to be excited about healthcare today. But I think initially, the way I started off was maybe a pretty simple story. I was really interested in the sciences and loved the application in helping people. That was kind of the initial impetus to my path. When I got to Rice University where I went to undergrad, as you mentioned, I had this incredible opportunity to work as an emergency medicine technician, and I actually gained my advanced certification through a course at Rice, which is really cool. So I did that for three years during undergrad.
I really always had a passion for emergency medicine. Initially, it was a lot around loving the pace of the field. I loved the opportunity to make an immediate impact on patients’ lives. But I think more recently, I've really appreciated newer things about emergency medicine: the opportunities to solve some really complex clinical challenges. In emergency medicine, we see a lot of undifferentiated patients, which is such an exciting thing to take care of, and then more systems-based. I think we see a lot of the problems in the healthcare system, both medical and social problems, things like housing and education that really impact people's health. That's my new passion in medicine: How do we create these health centers that also provide medical care? Medicine is such a vast field.
Why Georgetown's new MSBA program may be just what you're looking for! [Show Summary]
Dr. Sudipta Dasmohapatra, Academic Director of Georgetown’s MSBA program, goes in-depth on who the new online master’s program is for and how will prepare students for careers in data science leadership.
Earn your Master's of Science in business analytics online in just 16 months, while continuing to work. [Show Notes]
Are you attracted to business analytics but don't want to take the time off work to enter a full-time program to master the topic? Georgetown's McDonough School of Business has just what you're looking for: an online master's designed for working professionals. Today's guest is the director of that program, and we're going to learn all about it.
Dr. Sudipta Dasmohapatra earned her bachelor’s and master’s degrees in India and her PhD from Penn State, and she's always been a numbers geek. She started her career as a data scientist in 2004 and her teaching career at North Carolina State, where she was Associate Professor of Marketing and Customer Analytics until 2017. In 2017, she became, among other duties, the Director of the Master's in Statistical Science at Duke University, and in 2020 she joined Georgetown as Academic Director of its brand new online MS in Business Analytics (MSBA) program for working professionals.
Can you provide an overview of Georgetown's MSBA program? [2:06]
The Georgetown Master’s in Business Analytics offered by the McDonough School of Business is coming online in January 2021. It is an online, 16-month, comprehensive analytics program. We have designed it with the goal of preparing future business leaders and managers that are interested in learning how to understand data and how to use data to create, share, and sustain value.
The graduates of this program will be prepared to lead in key growth sectors where graduates that have deep business analytic skills are highly sought. This particular program has been rigorously curated to meet the needs of the current marketplace. We have integrated the technical aspects of data analytics with the managerial business functions so that the students can learn to speak and communicate the language of data.
Within this particular program, we have both asynchronous classes, as well as synchronous sessions in which the students can join their cohort, as well as a prominent faculty, in a virtual classroom. Students also have the opportunity to come to campus. We have two week-long campus-based residencies that provide integrated hands-on activities to the students through a very intensive, week-long curriculum.
One of the cornerstones of this particular program that I want to talk about is the capstone project. The capstone project, over six months, applies the program's concepts and methods and tools that the students learn in a challenging business data analytics assignment with a project sponsor. Students that come into this program can not only leverage the core McDonough and Georgetown community network, but being in the global capital city of Washington DC, we are going to connect the students to a network of people, programs, and complex data that have real-world consequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Lc59Bxemc
Could you give an example? What do you think a capstone project would be? [4:17]
A capstone project could be from a real-life sponsor. We might have, let's say, the military that has all this different data to do, say, cyber analytics. We might go to them and leverage our existing contacts and get data from there, and students would be able to work on projects where they can see the application of what they have learned in a real-life project. That's what we are envisioning right now with the capstone project.
Wow. How large of a cohort do you plan to admit this year and in subsequent years? Is it a lockstep program, where all participants take the same courses together,
What's it like being a student at Stanford GSB? [Show summary]
Ilana Walder-Biesanz’s eclectic background includes engineering, opera, product management, ballroom dance, data analytics, and theatre. In this episode, she shares why she also pursued an MBA from Stanford GSB.
Should you include interests and experiences that are not directly business-related in your MBA application? Absolutely! [Show notes]
This show's guest is a true Renaissance woman, currently interning for a company in Nigeria, after earning her MBA from Stanford GSB as a member of the Class of 2020. She also has a fascinating series of experiences before arriving at Stanford.
Ilana Walder-Biesanz earned her bachelor's in engineering from the Olin College of Engineering in 2013. As a student at Olin, she also had an arts and humanities concentration in theater and founded the Olin Opera Organization. After graduating, she pursued her masters at the University of Cambridge in European Literature and Culture and was a Gates Cambridge Scholar. She then studied for a year at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich as a Fulbright Scholar. Returning to the U.S., she worked for three years for Yahoo as a Product Manager and joined Stanford's GSB class of 2020, where she was a Siebel Scholar and an RJ Miller Scholar. She just became a data analyst marketing intern, working remotely for a Nigerian-based company on behalf of Stanford Seed, the Institute for Innovation in Developing Economies. And what I've told you is just the tip of the iceberg. Ilana has traveled extensively. Per her LinkedIn profile, she speaks English, Spanish, German, and Italian reasonably well, and some Japanese, French, and Hebrew. I'm not exaggerating when I say she is a true Renaissance woman.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background? [2:26]
I grew up in Portland, Oregon to two parents who had both studied theater in college and had started their careers as actors. So they pretty much pushed me onto the stage as soon as I could walk and talk. I think that's been a through-line of things I'm interested in throughout my life in engineering and business: I've been an avid actress and theater-goer. Dance came a little bit later. I was horribly graceless as a child, and my mother (who was actually also a dance teacher on the side) despaired of me and pulled me out of dance classes because I was so bad at it. But at some point later in life, I found my feet and really developed a passion for ballroom dancing.
Can you go into a little more depth on how you developed your interest in engineering and analytics, along with your interest in opera, dance, and the humanities? [3:27]
The humanities and opera and dance definitely came first. I actually discovered engineering through Girl Scouts probably when I was eight or nine. My Girl Scout troop went to a Lego Robotics sampler. Just a day where we all built robots out of Legos together. I thought it was the coolest thing. I signed up for Lego Robotics after school and eventually graduated to building robots out of metal instead of Legos. I did that throughout middle school and high school and that was what sparked the interest in engineering and in building robots, which is pretty much what I did for my four years of my engineering degree.
Why did you decide to go for an MBA? [4:25]
I was working in tech as a product manager, and I think there were two things that sparked the MBA decision there. One was I felt like in my role as a product manager, a really solid grasp of business was what I was lacking most. I had the communication skills, I had the technical background, but product managers make a lot of business strategy decisions. I felt like I was Googling around for things and didn't really have a solid framework or understanding of the best way to approach those. I also had a hypothesis that I wanted to move out of product management and be more directly involved in the business side of things and swit...
Could a postbac program boost your chances of acceptance to medical school?[Show summary]
Dr. Barry Rothman, an Accepted consultant with 19 years of experience in health professions advising, shares his expert guidance for applicants considering postbac programs and medical school.
Learn how this admissions cycle will differ from other cycles, and how you can best position yourself for success. [Show notes]
Dr. Barry Rothman is a former health professions advisor and Director of San Francisco State University's pre-health professions certificate program, which served pre-med, pre-dental, pre-nursing, and other pre-healthcare students who were preparing themselves to apply to their graduate professional schools. Today, he helps Accepted's clients in all aspects of the application process to graduate healthcare programs and graduate schools in the life sciences.
How did you get involved in pre-health advising at San Francisco State University? [2:22]
I was being a good tenure-track faculty member, and I was given the opportunity to be the health professions advisor because the previous one had retired. I had no idea what I was getting into. I thought, "Oh sure, it'll be an interesting sideline." Little did I know that I would fall in love with it. Within a few years, I would be working with many health profession students and pre-health profession students, and that they would want more service than our school was offering, especially the ones that were postbac. With their support and help and with the support and help of my dean, we created, from nothing, a postbac program that's been highly successful the last 14 years.
Most of the applicants were premeds. Then when it was successful, I realized that it could expand into other areas. We expanded into a dental postbac program, in collaboration with UC San Francisco's School of Dentistry. We expanded into a nursing postbac program, which was also very successful and very unusual. There are very few nursing, dedicated postbac programs.
In your opinion, who should consider a postbac program? [3:52]
There are two major types of postbacs. One is called a career changer. Some people really don't figure out what they want to do, career-wise, until partway through, or maybe even all the way through undergraduate school. There's a certain kind for career changers that will take them through all the medical school prerequisites and hopefully a few upper-division electives. They basically need all the coursework, or almost all the courses, that medical schools require. There's another kind of career changer, which is somebody who actually completed their undergraduate degree, went out into the workforce, and then got the epiphany that they wanted to go into a health profession. Interestingly, many of them are children of physicians. If you're a child of a physician or a healthcare provider, you want to make sure you're making this choice on your own, not because mom or dad is in healthcare. Sometimes, you have to really convince yourself of that, by becoming an art history major or a political science major or a public health major, going out into the workforce, and then realizing that, "You know, inside of myself, I really do want to do this and I've certainly been exposed to it, but it's not just because of mom or dad."
I think it's very valid. I think it's really good to make sure it's your decision and not just because you're being influenced. And of course, you have a tremendous advantage because you've seen what the home life is of a physician or a healthcare worker, the good and the bad of it. You've probably worked in the office during a summer or something like that, and so you really are well-informed; you just needed to make sure it was your own decision. Those are the career changers.
Then the vast majority of people who show up for postbac programs are what we call academic enhancers. Those are people who knew for quite a while that they wan...
How to write an acceptance-worthy essay for HBS [Show summary]
Harsha Mulchandani, member of the Harvard Business School Class of 2021, offers her perspective on student life at HBS, as well as what her work on the Harbus Essay Guide has taught her about writing the perfect admissions essay.
How can The Harbus Essay Guide help you craft your admissions essays? [Show notes]
Is HBS on your list? Hear from this student about her experience so far at Harvard Business School (shut down and all) and about how the Harbus Essay Guide can help you get accepted.
Our guest today, Harsha Mulchandani, lived most of her life in India. She earned an integrated MS in mathematics and computer science in 2015 from IIT Kanpur. She then launched her professional career at Boston Consulting Group and left BCG to become an investment analyst in 2017. She moved to Boston to attend Harvard Business School last summer and join the class of 2021.
For her summer internship, she is an M&A and operations associate while also serving, separately, as a product manager for Harbus, HBS' student newspaper. For Harbus, she works primarily on the Harbus Essay Guide, which just came out, and its interview guide, which will come out shortly.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, and what you like to do for fun? [2:05]
I grew up in India. For the largest part of my life, I was in a town in the northern part of India called Jaipur. You may have heard of it as the “Pink City” or a city famous for forts and palaces, or more recently for weddings. It's getting popular. I spent a large part of my time, until I was 18, there. And then I shifted to Kanpur to do my integrated master's in mathematics and scientific computing. I spent about five years there. After that, as you mentioned, I launched into management consulting with the Boston Consulting Group. A large part of my two and a half years there was focused on consumer goods, and I did a project with the government of Rajasthan, which is my home state as well. And then from there, I went on to a private equity fund called Westbridge Capital. I spent about a year and a half there, and I'm here now. That's what I did before joining HBS, other than of course getting married.
And for fun, I've been into dance all my life. I used to do a lot of dance growing up, in college and now in HBS. And I like to go for short runs and listen to some of my favorite podcasts.
Why did you decide to get an MBA? [3:46]
I guess this is the question that people ask any MBA graduate often, or someone who is deciding to go into an MBA. I guess the most important question to answer is, why an MBA? And I guess for me, the answer was never just about only the hard skills or only the more tangible skills. It was a mix of a hard skills agenda and a more personal development agenda. And the answer for me somehow has always been a cross cut of those two. My exposure to working styles had only been focused on my own geography, which is India, so being able to develop a more global working style, interacting with some of my colleagues who have had experience working here or have grown up here. That was one of the things on my list. I wanted to interact with people and figure out what it is out there.
A lot of people do it on investment calculations and take the salary of their next job and say, "Okay, in how many years can I make up for the salary?" But I guess for me, it was always that you have to add that personal development equation into that. It's a melting pot of so many different cultures, being able to listen to speakers from Brian Stevenson to Alan Horn. And also personally for me as an entrepreneur, I guess America is a much deeper market capital wise. Just to be exposed to the venture capital/private equity community here. I guess if I put all of that into the equation, it would seem favorable for me to come here and do an MBA.
A Columbia Med School student's incredible response to COVID-19 [Show summary]
Dr. David Edelman, a recent graduate of Columbia Medical School, shares his perspective on pursuing a career in medicine during these exceptional times, as well as what led him to co-found the COVID-19 Student Service Corps.
The journey of a Columbia MD/MPH who is already acting on his commitment to health equity [Show notes]
What's it like to attend Columbia Medical? Why did this newly minted doc also earn an MPH, and how did he co-found a student organization to help med students serve New York City during the pandemic? That's what we're going to find out.
Our guest today is Dr. David Edelman, co-founder and past co-chair of the COVID-19 Student Service Corps. Dr. Edelman earned his bachelor's degree in biology and Spanish from Washington University in St. Louis in 2015. He then began his medical school studies at Columbia University's Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons. While there, he also earned an MPH at Columbia Mailman School of Public Health. He is about to start his residency at Montefiore Medical Center in its Primary Care and Social Internal Medicine program.
Can you tell us about your background outside of medicine? [2:20]
I'm originally from a small suburb outside of Cleveland, Ohio. I grew up there, played a lot of sports growing up, and then left the nest to be an undergraduate in St. Louis at Washington University. I continued on with sports for a little bit there. I played football for a year, was on the club baseball team for a while, and then really found interests in Spanish language, which I studied abroad a little bit in Spain. I just loved being in a different place and being on my own and learning about language and culture and people, as well as global health and the intersections between health and equity in the United States and abroad.
I've gotten into running over the last five years. I love hiking. I have a dog who is here with me. Since I haven't started residency, I'm able to spend a lot of time with my dog. I also host a weekly trivia question for friends and family as a way to stay in touch over the last few years, which has been really fun. Those are my little quirky things I like to do.
When did you decide to become a doctor? [3:40]
I think the first moment was in high school. I think it really speaks to how the teachers that you have really make a difference on what you do in life. I was in a biology class and the teacher I had in 10th grade, Mr. Grim, was just such a phenomenal inspiring person. It's a cliche, but he made all the science come alive. And it's not because we were dissecting animals or anything, but because he really connected everything that we were learning in such a fun, fundamental way to how we live and breathe and act as people. That got me interested in it.
The only physician in my family is my uncle. When I was telling him about how much I loved it, that class in 10th grade, he said, "Why don't you come down to my hospital one night, and you can shadow in the emergency room?" That first ever experience in medicine was on a Friday night, downtown Cleveland, in a level one trauma center from 8:00 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. I think even 11 years later, that was still the most jam-packed night of medicine I've ever had. I saw more in those six hours than I think I've seen in week-long periods ever since. It was a pretty cool intro, and from there I knew I wanted to do something in medicine, and that kept growing as I kept exploring more, and I saw myself in that role.
What were some of the more impactful experiences that you had as you explored medicine before medical school? [5:13]
There were a number of things. When I think of what led me to where I am now, and that includes going into a primary care residency program and integrating medicine and public health through social medicine, I think about these converging threads of my life.
What's it like to be a student at a top business school during COVID-19? [Show summary]
Eli Engelman, member of the Columbia Business School Class of 2021, shares his experience applying to and matriculating at Columbia’s MBA program, including how his experience has been shaped by COVID-19.
A CBS student reflects on his b-school experience so far [Show notes]
Are you wondering if an MBA moved online is a valuable experience? Or are you less worried about how your education will be delivered and more worried about getting into an elite MBA program when you didn't necessarily attend a college with an Ivy League pedigree? Our guest today will address both those topics.
Eli Engelman grew up outside of New York city and decided after a stint in the Israeli army to attend the Zicklin School of Business at Baruch College, where he earned a BA in finance and minored in philosophy and computer applications and business. After interning at Bank Leumi, he joined the bank full time in 2016 and worked there until he joined Columbia Business School's Class of 2021.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background and where you grew up? What do you like to do for fun? [1:52]
I grew up in Monsey, New York, which is about 45 minutes north of the city. I attended a local high school and upon graduating, I decided that I wanted a little bit of an interesting experience in life. And so I moved to Israel to study abroad and join the Israeli Defense Force. And after three years in Israel, I decided to return to New York, this time Manhattan. I wanted to position myself at the center of business and to pursue a degree at Baruch College. Like you said, I majored in finance and minored in computer information systems and philosophy. And I had a wonderful internship at Bank Leumi, which is Israel's largest investments bank, and I decided to join them full-time. I loved the idea of being at the intersection of business, as well as that international experience that being at an Israeli bank afforded me. And at Leumi, I was a member of both the portfolio strategy and alternative investment teams. For fun, I love to read, I love to snowboard, hike and travel, and discovering different cuisines is a favorite pastime of mine.
Your undergraduate degree is in business. You have four and a half solid years of experience at an international bank. Why did you decide you wanted or needed an MBA? [3:11]
There are three primary reasons. I think there are actually many more, but the three that spring to mind are the fact that at Leumi, I got a really broad experience and I thought it was very important that starting out, I would focus more on the breadth than the depth of my experience, just to see what I would like. And I worked on public markets and private markets, and the private markets were really interesting to me. I hoped an MBA would allow me to leverage what I learned at Leumi and provide me a platform to focus my skill on that particular discipline.
The second was that I wanted to just surround myself with ambitious, hardworking peers who I could learn so much from, and that's really come to fruition in a profound way.
And the third and perhaps most important, and one that you're less likely to hear in general, is that life is short and I wanted to diversify my experience as much as I possibly could. I wanted to live as interesting a life as I could, and I thought an MBA would be a great way to take a two year break from "real life" and explore and see what's interesting to me and hear different perspectives, and that was very enticing.
Do you remember anything particularly challenging about the MBA application process for you? [4:53]
What was the most challenging thing to me on my application was also the thing I thought would be the least challenging, which was my resume. I originally assumed that my resume's purpose is to highlight responsibilities, essentially to showcase the faith that Leumi or the companies ...
What unique challenges can this year's med school applicants expect to face, and how can they be overcome? [Show summary]
Dr. Herman “Flash” Gordon, Accepted medical admissions consultant, walks med school applicants through applying during COVID-19, as well as disclosing thorny issues like academic discipline or a criminal record.
How COVID-19 is impacting medical school admissions [Show notes]
Dr. Gordon returns to Admissions Straight Talk to discuss applying during the pandemic, as well as applying with blemishes, like a criminal record or academic discipline. What qualifies him to guide you? He served as chair of a medical school admissions committee for four years.
Dr. Gordon earned his bachelor's at Harvard and his PhD in developmental neuroscience from Caltech. He began teaching at the University of Arizona's medical school in Tucson in 1991 and has been doing so ever since. He also served as chair of the med school's admissions committee, and after leaving that position in 2014, he's been a very popular admissions consultant at Accepted. Who can better guide you in applying to med school, especially if you have some issues to deal with? (And everyone is dealing with the issue called COVID-19.)
How did you get involved in med school admissions at the University of Arizona? [2:14]
Like so many committee assignments, I was drafted. I was fine with it because I thought it was an opportunity to help choose the students that I'd be teaching. As I got into it, I really, really enjoyed it. It's such an important committee in med schools. It's definitely the most labor intensive, even probably more than PMT. It's also extremely rewarding, because you're changing people's lives by accepting them to med school, and it's such an intense effort. You're working with your colleagues who are also really dedicated to this task, and the outcome is great. You end up with this class that you really enjoy teaching, and you feel good about them becoming doctors.
At University of Arizona, like at many schools, there are a number of students who serve on a committee as well. And that's very valuable, and I think they get the word out to fellow students, both at their own school and other schools, how dedicated everybody is to this effort. They also communicate how much effort it is, but it's also something I think everybody feels good about. I know that from talking with colleagues, who say "I had to serve on this or that committee," the one committee that everybody says was really worthwhile was the admissions committee.
There's uncertainty about the kind of education future med students will get this fall. (Online? Offline? Blended? Clinical experience?) What's your take on how they should be responding to these different challenges? Let's take, first of all, the uncertainty surrounding the MCAT. [5:14]
First, it is what it is. Med schools have to accept a new class of med students. And so they're going to roll with it. They know this, and what the MCAT is doing is allowing students to apply even if they don't have their MCAT score posted yet. Schools are sending out secondaries even without the MCAT. What they're saying is once you get the MCAT in, then we'll process your application, but you can be building it in the meanwhile and it'll just go through when it does. It won't be too late. Even people who are taking the MCAT through June and into early July, they're saying that they're expediting the reporting of the score. So it'll only be two weeks. So worst-case scenario, there is the end of July. That's still very much within the normal season for MCAT. So I wouldn't stress over that.
I think the bigger stress I'm hearing from applicants is if they don't already have an MCAT score, and they take the test and it's not the score that they would have wanted, they don't have time to retake the test. And yet they've already spent all the money and put in the application.
Are you dreaming of an MBA from UCLA Anderson? [Show summary]
UCLA Anderson’s Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions, Alex Lawrence, explores the opportunities awaiting future MBA students, as well as the changes Anderson is making to campus life this fall to provide its students with a safe, rewarding MBA experience.
Learn about Anderson's unique MBA program, as well as tips for submitting an acceptance-worthy Anderson application [Show notes]
Alex Lawrence is the Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA School of Management and an Anderson alum who earned his MBA in 1999. Prior to that, he earned bachelors and masters degrees in electrical engineering. After earning his MBA, he worked in management consulting for four years and then returned to UCLA Anderson as director of the Riordan Programs before becoming Assistant Dean for MBA Admissions.
Can you give an overview of the Anderson full-time MBA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:08]
Anderson emphasizes early specialization and hands-on experiences. We're like the typical two-year MBA program, having core classes with electives following that. I think one of the distinctive features, especially since we were the first school to have this as part of the requirement, is that all of our students have to complete one of two hands-on exercises or opportunities, that being the applied management research project, where you get a chance to work with an organization on a real business challenge or a business creation option. We were the first ones to create that opportunity for our MBA students.
In addition, we're not a one-trick pony in the sense that we're not just a consulting school or a finance school. There's a lot of different areas that our students can be interested in or focus on. That variety makes our campus, our culture, so much more distinctive than other campuses, because students come in with diverse backgrounds and diverse interests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNyw9J9NHFU
Other than the lockdown and pandemic, what's new at UCLA Anderson? [3:37]
One of the big things is that we launched a brand-new campus, a brand-new facility building, which is spectacular. Before this virus situation went down, the students were really enjoying it, the visitors who were coming, prospects, as well as those who had just been admitted and are still coming, the class of 2022 and beyond. Fantastic facility. Our new dean at that time, Tony Bernardo, he's still short of a year of being in the program, though he's been here on the campus for over 20 years, so we had a new dean in place as well. Those are two of the biggest things.
What don't people know about Anderson that you would like them to know, on a bigger scale? [5:03]
I alluded to it a little bit earlier, talking about the variety of choices that students can look at. Very few people know that in the Los Angeles area alone, it's number one in the world for small business activity. I say that because when you look at the culture, when you look at the opportunities that many of our students are exploring and that our alumni are currently participating in, it's a very entrepreneurial culture. It's a very entrepreneurial environment.
That's why I made it a point to mention the BCO (Business Creation Option), which is younger than the AMR (Applied Management Research) opportunity as well. With our accelerator that is on campus, many of our students do still look at that opportunity of becoming an entrepreneur. Many may still focus on some of the traditional career choices (tech, finance, consulting), but as a secondary, they all also are pursuing some entrepreneurial ventures as well. When you look at the types of companies that alumni have started or are currently engaged at, it's so diverse.
The last thing I'll mention is that for as long as I've been here, I've seen this increase in the number of students who are doing internships beyond just the...
Can students make a difference during the current pandemic? [Show summary]
Jalen Benson, founder of the National Student Response Network and first-year med student at Harvard, discusses what health care volunteer opportunities are out there and how to find them during the Coronavirus outbreak. Listen in.
Finding volunteer opportunities for premeds despite COVID-19 [Show notes]
Here's a common scenario we're hearing about from premeds and others in healthcare fields. It goes like this: “I had a great volunteer community service gig lined up for the spring and summer, but it was canceled due to COVID. What can I do to get this kind of experience and apply effectively?”
Our guest today is Jalen Benson, founder of the National Student Response Network. Jalen is a first-year student at Harvard Medical, after completing his undergrad in biology at Dartmouth and spending two years as a research assistant at Stanford University. When COVID-19 hit and students went home early, he founded the NSRP, a national network of medical, nursing, and PA students in all fifty states that helps connect volunteers with the organizations that need them and might not know they’re there. While many traditional internships and volunteer opportunities are shelved, there are still many ways you can help. The trick is to know where to ask, and realize that even if you can’t go on a far-flung internship, there are many local organizations that need help right now.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background outside of medicine? [1:55]
I'm from the town of Pensacola, Florida. It's in the panhandle of Florida between Tallahassee and New Orleans, so way, way at the far western end. Nice and warm, nice sunny beaches. So growing up in Pensacola, I really could never be still. I loved playing soccer, and I was always doing that and running around doing a million and one things from history, to working at the beach. And my family was mostly me, my younger brother, and my mom.
And going to college I got involved more in the outdoors, and now I love hiking, and skiing, and the whole nine yards. All the things you get into going to New Hampshire when you see snow for the first time. My parents didn't go to college, so there was no warning of what to do or how to do this, it was, "All right, it sounds great." I visited, it looked good to me. I didn't think about what snow was, I hadn't seen it before, but I adjusted and I learned to love it, and I learned to play ice hockey, and ski, and go hiking. My parents still don't know quite how that happened, but here we are.
When did you decide to become a doctor? [3:21]
It's funny, I spent most of my life trying to avoid medicine. My mom is an MRI tech, and she raised us primarily by herself, so that meant a lot of weekends when she was on call, we were on call. Going to the hospital and sitting in waiting rooms, and I was like ... I didn't want to do this. I thought I was going to go and do law. And then as I got older, I fell more in love with science. And what struck me about medicine was the idea of the trust the patient gives you and the story. When you talk to patients it's not like, "Oh, my leg is broken and fix it," because I can fix problems as an architect or a lawyer, or anything else. But when they say the leg is broken they're saying, "It's broken, and it's really important because my daughter has a recital next week, and my wife is sick so I need to be able to go to the recital on her behalf," and so how to make sure we're doing that. The trust you get from patients and those pieces of stories you get, that's what really made me know that this is what I want to do. You help people now, get a piece of their story, and then they leave better for having seen you. Hopefully.
Were you considering a career in research when you went to Stanford and did those two years, or were you always convinced that the clinical path was the path for you? [4:21]
What's it like growing a startup during business school? [Show summary]
Stephen Cognetta had already co-founded his tech startup, Exponent, by the time he entered the Stanford GSB class of 2020. Today, he shares how his MBA experience shaped his approach to growing Exponent and what the business is doing to help job applicants land their next tech position.
Combining a Stanford MBA with a tech startup career [Show notes]
Are you thinking you'd like your next job to be in software engineering, product management, data analysis, or a host of other high-tech fields? Interested in learning about the Stanford MBA experience? This Admissions Straight Talk episode is going to discuss both how Exponent can help you land that next high-tech job, as well as how Stanford helped our guest run his startup, Exponent.
Stephen Cognetta earned his bachelor's at Princeton in computer science before taking a position at Google in product management, where he did work on Google search features and then Android. In 2017, he founded Exponent and joined the Stanford MBA class of 2020 a little while later. Let's hear about his business, his MBA experience, and where he's headed.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, and what you like to do for fun (when you can leave your house)? [2:07]
I grew up in the Bay Area; my life always keeps pulling me back here, to the San Francisco Bay Area. I worked at Google, as you mentioned, for a couple of years. Then when I was founding Exponent, I took a big cross-country road trip where I went to 44 different states over a year and a half. I was doing a little bit of the digital nomad life, sort of starting a company, traveling, trying to explore and get out of the Bay Area. But of course, it took me back. My life took me back there, and I came back to Stanford for a great opportunity. So I'm back in the Bay Area.
Some things I like to do for fun: Obviously, I love road trips, exploring and seeing things. I'm a huge fan of puzzles and riddles and things like that. I go crazy for twisting plots of TV shows and movies and stuff like that, which is probably what got me to be a computer science major in the first place.
What was the most interesting place you visited when you took that 44-state road trip? [3:11]
I really loved the natural beauty of West Virginia. It was just super beautiful. I was staying in a town called Lewisburg, and it was near a bunch of natural beauty. I also felt like there was a lot of an appreciation for the land there that felt really special. It was on my list because it was one of those places that I didn't know much about or had much of an expectation about, but I was just blown away by the forest and the natural beauty and all the local types of flowers and plants that were there in the region. I think we in California have this idea that we're the most beautiful place in the US. California is certainly beautiful, but there's just so much beauty in other parts of the US also that I was not exposed to or knew about.
Why did you decide you wanted an MBA? [4:58]
My story is actually a little different. I applied to a deferred admin program. Actually, while I was at Princeton, I applied to get into Stanford. The deferred admit program, for those that don't know, is where you get admitted, and then you can choose to go to the MBA school two to four years after your graduation date from undergrad. At the time, I knew I really valued higher education. I knew that there would be a path for me where I could potentially get an MBA and it was an option that I thought was really helpful, especially as a STEM major, since I was majoring in computer science. And I thought that it would really balance out my skillset of having both the technical background and then also, the business acumen to help me succeed in that entrepreneurial world that I was hoping to get into.
How can you write a stand-out personal statement? [Show summery]
Dr. Mary Mahoney, Associate Professor of English at Elmira College and Accepted consultant, draws from her expertise in the medical humanities to deliver advice for writing a compelling personal statement. Listen to the show!
A professor of English and Accepted admissions consultant shares top writing tips [Show notes]
Our guest today, Dr. Mary Mahoney, is Associate Professor of English at Elmira College and a recent winner of the Barnhill essay contest at that college. She focuses much of her work on medical narrative and medical humanities. This work, in Dr. Mahoney's words, helps students understand and articulate why they want the medical career or healthcare career they are pursuing. In addition, Dr. Mahoney serves on the Elmira College Committee that reviews personal statements and provides feedback on interviews for Elmira students.
Who can better help you tell your story through your personal statement?
Can you tell us a little bit about your background? [2:07]
The story that I tell that brings home a little bit of who I am and how I was raised is that I'm the youngest of five children in a pretty typical Irish family. When I came home from high school one day and told my mom that I wanted to be a poet, she said, "That's terrific, but not until after you go to nursing school." So that's what I did. I had a bunch of friends who were going into nursing school, and I had no other clear direction. I came from a family of math people. Auditors, accountants, all math people. And while I liked math, I really had no interest in doing anything like that. So nursing sounded good to me. I was an empathetic kind of teenager. So I went ahead and did that.
I was a nurse by the time I was 19, and started working as a nurse when I was 19, but just continued going to school full-time over and over and over and over and over again, all the way through to the PhD. I didn't know that there would be a way to bridge the two, but I started writing about being a nurse when I was in my Master's program at Sarah Lawrence College and received a whole lot of encouragement to continue writing that way, because there was so little representation of a nurse's point of view in essays and stories and articles and things like that. People thought that it felt fresh, in the sense that it wasn't a writer writing about being a writer. It was a writer writing about being a nurse.
I found a conference at Duke University, a conference on poetry and medicine, and it was all about the medical humanities. That was how I found out about the medical humanities, in addition to seeking out journals where my writing would be suitable.
What are the medical humanities? [4:14]
The medical humanities is an interdisciplinary focus on studying what living is, what life is, what it means to be a human, what it means to be a person, what it means to live in a body that gets sick. What it means to be mortal. What that means in relation to the people that we have relationships with, our cultures, our communities, and also, how all of that informs who we are as individuals, which brings up really abstract aspects to who we are that are frequently unseen in the communication between health professionals and patients. It's trying to bring the fuller, more comprehensive aspect of being human into the space of medicine and vice versa so that there's a much more reciprocal relationship between a practitioner and a patient.
The distinction between “humanities” and “medical humanities” is that the focus has something to do with bodies that fail. Also, I think the medical humanities are really for anyone who might be interested in it, but I think the idea of it as a curriculum is that it fosters empathy and teaches how to recognize empathetic feelings or empathetic moments as meaningful for people who are headed for the health sciences as a profession.
An engineer with Indian Railways seeks innovation as a Rotman MBA student. [Show summary]
Meenakshi Chauhan spent five years as an engineer with Indian Railways (and the only woman in her department) before leaving in search of a more challenging, innovative work environment. Now, she’s preparing to re-enter student life at the University of Toronto’s Rotman MBA program.
Preparing for life as an MBA student at Toronto Rotman [Show notes]
Meenakshi Chauhan has worked since graduating college as an Indian Railways engineer. She started a beauty blog in 2018 and is now looking forward to starting her MBA studies at the University of Toronto's Rotman School.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, and what you like to do for fun? [1:23]
I was born in a small village where I lived with my parents and their extended family. I lived there for about two years, but for most of my childhood, I've lived with my grandmother. My father was the only person earning and my mother had to take care of the whole family, so they didn't have much time for me. So I was mostly brought up by my grandmother. I lived for around eight to 10 years with her, and then I moved back with my parents. As far as what I like to do for fun, there are a lot of things that I like to do. I like to paint. I like to cook, and this lockdown has given me the chance to cook a lot. And I love to work out. On my blog, I'm also writing a lot about health and nutrition, so I love to work out and take care of myself.
You earned your BTech in 2013. On your blog you write, “I was selected as an assistant engineer in Indian Railways, considered one of the most prestigious jobs in the engineering field. I was at the top of the world until I joined. I realized that the job was not as exciting as I had expected it to be.” Why didn't it live up to your expectations? [2:32]
So when I joined Indian Railways, I had a certain impression in my mind: The job is going to be very challenging, I'm going to work and learn about a lot of new technologies, and I'll be involved in innovating stuff. Indian Railways is completely owned by the Indian government, so bureaucracy tends to slow down things a bit, and I felt that when I started working with Indian Railways that things were a bit slow. It took months to get the approval for anything. So it got a little monotonous for me, and I didn't really find it as challenging as I was expecting it to be. So it got a little bit boring for me there, and I wanted to do something more exciting that would help me develop my skills as well as enjoy the whole working process.
Was it difficult for you as a woman in a male-dominated field and industry? [4:04]
It was a bit difficult for me, and mostly because in the department I joined, there were not many women. I was the only woman in that department, so I got judged a lot. My intelligence was questioned. My seniors, as well as my juniors, would often say that I was not fit for the job. I wasn’t capable of handling long hours or putting in that much effort towards my work. So that was a bit disheartening for me. Eventually, I did handle it, but initially it was a bit disheartening for me.
How did you handle it? [5:00]
I got a few opportunities, and I must say I'm lucky that I got opportunities where most of the topmost officiants of Indian Railways were monitoring the project, looking after that. I was solely responsible for handling a few of those projects, and I did exceptionally well in those projects. They eventually did understand that it doesn't matter whether I am a girl or some male person working there, and it's just the kind of dedication you put in, the effort you put in that matters, not my gender that matters.
You worked with the Indian Railways for just about five years. Did the frustration ultimately lead you to turn to business and an MBA? [5:38]
No, I wouldn't say it was the frustration,
Show summary: LSAT expert Steve Schwartz shares how to prepare for the new online LSAT exam.
Steve Schwartz, who’s spent 12 years helping thousands master the LSAT, breaks down what test-takers need to know about preparing for and taking the new online LSAT-Flex.
Show notes: What test-takers need to know about the LSAT-Flex!
The March and April LSATs were canceled. What are applicants to do? Take the GRE? No way. LSAT-Flex to the rescue!
Our guest today is Steve Schwartz, of the LSAT Blog and the LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channel. Steve graduated from Columbia University in 2008. In high school and college, he tutored various subjects and also helped prep test-takers for standardized tests, including the LSAT. However, he really began to focus on the LSAT when he was applying for law school. He founded the LSAT Blog in 2008 and never looked back. Today, 12 years later, he has helped thousands master the LSAT and get into law school and sometimes secure scholarships worth tens of thousands of dollars.
How is the LSAT-Flex different, in format and delivery, from the old LSAT? [2:01]
The biggest difference is that it's online and students are doing it from home. The main reason for that, of course, is we're speaking during COVID-19, stay-at-home orders, quarantines, shelter-in-place, and so it wasn't possible to do it in person, so they've moved pretty quickly to allow students to do it from home.
And what about the content of the LSAT-Flex? [2:24]
The content is the same, except the amount of content is different. So you still have your logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension, but now on LSAT-Flex, you have only one section of each, whereas in the old in-person LSAT, whether paper and pencil or digital, you had five sections—four scored plus one experimental, and the four included two logical reasoning sections rather than one as we have now in the LSAT-Flex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjLigdv7MbE
Are they changing the scoring as a result, or keeping the same scale? [2:52]
It will still be the same scale. So students will still receive a score on the band of 120 to 180, but there are fewer scored questions—only 75 scored questions rather than 100 scored questions, so each question is worth more.
Are they going to count the logical reasoning section twice somehow because there are now half the number of those questions? [3:13]
That was my big question as well, and fortunately LSAT did tell us that, in fact, they will not double-weight logical reasoning. So each section will be worth approximately the same, which leads you to ask, why was logical reasoning ever half the exam if they're willing to do an exam that does not include that? I think it's simply the requirements of the platform, the requirements of administering a remote exam, and shortening the length of it from five sections to now only three sections, which can be done in about two hours.
Should applicants adjust their preparations if they're taking the LSAT-Flex? [3:49]
They certainly should. You're doing it two hours, three sections, not five. Logical reasoning has diminished in importance. Logic games and reading comp have relatively increased in importance. Endurance matters a little bit less, but it's a lot more important to be warmed up and ready to go the second it starts, because every question counts more.
https://blog.accepted.com/applying-to-law-school-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic/
Does that mean it should be faster? Should applicants focus more on the games than they did on logical reasoning before? [4:16]
Yes, it does. If logical reasoning was not your strong suit, the LSAT-Flex will be more up your alley. Regardless of where you are, spend less time on reasoning than you otherwise would have, more on games and reading comp, and also simulate your practice tests with three sections back-to-back, no break, only two hours,
Applying to business school during a pandemic [Show summary]
Soojin Kwon (Managing Director, Full-Time MBA Admissions and Program at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business) and Diana Economy, Director of Full-Time MBA Admissions at Ross, answers pressing applicant questions about applying to Ross. They address how the application process has shifted in light of COVID-19 and what accepted students can expect from their MBA experience this fall.
What prospective MBAs should know about applying to Michigan Ross [Show notes]
Are you among the many MBA wannabes who are thinking about applying for an MBA? Are you wondering whether to apply this cycle or next? We've invited Soojin Kwon and Diana Economy to answer the most common applicant questions related to COVID-19 and its impact on MBA admissions, specifically at Michigan Ross. During the podcast, Soojin Kwon provides an excellent framework for evaluating whether you should apply now or not.
Most of us have been confined to our homes for over a month. I first of all want to express my profound hope that all listeners and their loved ones are well. The restrictions and challenges of the coronavirus have wreaked havoc on so many areas of our lives, and this show is devoted to the challenges it has posed in the MBA admissions world, specifically at Michigan Ross’ top-notch, full-time MBA program.
It gives me great pleasure to have on today’s show Soojin Kwon, Managing Director of the Full-Time MBA Admissions and Program at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business, and Diana Economy, Director of Full-Time MBA Admissions at University of Michigan Ross School of Business. Both are returning guests to Admissions Straight Talk and I'm thrilled to have them back. Soojin and Diana, in addition to being highly experienced in MBA admissions, and specifically Ross admissions, are both also highly articulate in this extraordinary time in so many ways. I’ve invited them on so that we can learn how the Michigan Ross program is dealing with the challenges of COVID-19. I’ve also used questions drawn from Accepted’s recent COVID MBA webinar, so my questions in this podcast, even more than usual, are really your questions, applicant questions, in an attempt to help you determine if you should apply for your MBA, and specifically if and when you should apply to the Ross MBA. But even if you're not applying to Ross, you’re going to find a lot of valuable insight in this episode.
Other than the health risks and inconveniences that we’re all dealing with, as admissions directors what are your concerns about the impact of COVID-19 on the MBA classes now at Ross and those considering the 2020 and 2021 application cycle? [2:31]
Diana: This has taken up every meeting, every day right now, and we are regularly talking about both our students and our incoming students and doing everything we can to think about their needs and try to prioritize our planning accordingly. We meet regularly with the Dean’s office, whether myself or Soojin, to make sure that we’re in sync with their plans as they navigate and manage for the fall. Our Dean’s office has been great about doing regular town halls for our students. So we have done town halls for our full-time MBA students at least a few times already. We’ve even done town halls for our admitted students and even prospective students because we recognize the importance of communication during these difficult times.
<< Read: How Will COVID-19 Impact Your Admissions Journey: 5 MBA Admissions Experts Speak >>
We're trying to communicate as much as we can, knowing that there are a lot of answers that are unknown right now, but doing what we can to stay in touch with our constituents. For our current students, one of the big areas that we're working with them on, of course, is employment, so the internships and full-time opportunities for them. And while at this point, we haven’t seen that many internships or full time of...
A career-changer's path to med school [Show summary]
Valerie Fuchs holds a PhD in environmental engineering and spent eight years as a water resources engineer. This summer, however, she’ll start medical school. Hear how Valerie navigated med school admissions as an older, nontraditional applicant and got into her first-choice school.
From engineering PhD to med student [Show notes]
Are you an older, nontraditional potential med school applicant burned out on your profession? Are you thinking about medicine, but worried about starting over? Or are you just getting started?
Valerie Fuchs earned her BS in civil engineering and her PhD in environmental engineering, and she did a postdoc fellowship at Yale. For the last eight years, she has worked as a water resources engineer. This summer, she is starting medical school.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? [1:46]
I grew up in Spokane, Washington. I am the oldest of five kids from a big Catholic family. I went to a Catholic grade school over there, and then moved on to Gonzaga University, not far from home. I always kind of had that interest in math and science, I guess, and had cousins who were engineers, and I thought, well, I'll try this out and see how it goes. I really got interested in civil engineering, soil and water science, and those kinds of things.
I thought as I went through school that what I really wanted to do was be able to help people in terms of water and sanitation, developing communities in particular. The direction I ended up going in grad school was sanitation for developing communities, so wastewater treatment in Bolivia and other countries in South America. I did research and a whole doctoral dissertation on it. Then I kind of continued that, but I started looking at storm water when I was at Yale for a year before transitioning into consulting engineering. I've been a consultant for about 10 years now. I have moved all over the country. I did a lot of research and work in different countries in Central and South America. Then finally, about six years ago, I decided I wanted to be closer to family and move back to Seattle. I've been here ever since.
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What made you start thinking that engineering isn't for you, and that medicine is? [3:47]
A few years ago, I started feeling like even though engineering is a great intellectual challenge for me, I wanted to be engaging more with people. My day-to-day work as an engineer is mostly sitting at a computer, crunching numbers on different types of projects. I wanted to be really doing something more one-on-one with people, potentially helping them improve their life in some way.
So, I started looking at a variety of different options. I considered teaching high school science. I looked at becoming a massage therapist. That was until August of 2016, when my mom became ill and then passed away of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. I spent about three weeks with her in the hospital and in hospice, and all stress aside, I found myself really intrigued by observing her care team, her neurologist and the interns that were helping. They were just so engaged with us, with her, with our family, engaging with us, compassionate towards us, and doing so much hard work to try to figure out what this really rare disease was that she had, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.
If you heard, probably 10 or 20 years ago, there was a lot of news about Mad Cow Disease. It's basically the human form of that. It means that there's a certain protein in the brain, a prion protein, that changes form, and that causes a domino effect of these other proteins to change form, and that creates holes in the brain. It’s a neurodegenerative disease that can happen really fast that usually hurts people in their 60s. It's extremely rare, and they don't know why it happens or how to cure it. It was really out of nowhere.
What does it mean to train "the best managers for the world?" [Show summary]
Judith Puigbo, Associate Director of MBA Admissions, explores how to get into ESADE, a top MBA program based in Barcelona committed to doing good.
Learn about ESADE's unique MBA program [Show notes]
Judith Puigbo is the Associate Director of MBA Admissions at ESADE, responsible for MBA admissions in Switzerland and the Middle East. Let’s learn more directly from our guest.
Can you give us an overview of ESADE's highly ranked full-time MBA program, focusing on what’s distinctive about it? [2:06]
We were the first business school founded in Spain, in 1958. Spain was a very closed society, and we were always looking at what was going on in the U.S. So a group of entrepreneurs (well, now we called them entrepreneurs; in that period, we were calling them family businesses) thought, “Listen, we need to establish a management school, a business school here in Spain.” We had very good engineering schools and economics schools but not management.
So that’s why a group of managers from family businesses decided to create a business school together with the Jesuits because they thought, “Well, we know about management. We have no idea about education.” So that’s why they wanted to partner with the Jesuits. (Georgetown in Washington, for example, was founded by Jesuits.) The Jesuits had a very large tradition of creating schools and universities all over the world, because they believe that it’s better to empower emerging countries through education rather than just doing charity. So that’s why they had the very large tradition of creating schools and universities.
I know this is a very “grandma” story about where we come from, but it explains the DNA of the school. We were founded by entrepreneurs, so we have this entrepreneurial spirit, but also we were founded by the Jesuits, so we have this collaborative environment as well.
And regarding the full-time MBA, I want you to remember the word “flexibility.” I think that’s one of the main assets, the flexibility of the program, because you can do it in 12, 15, or 18 months, and there are many moments in the year where you can tailor the experience through electives, language courses, student clubs, the career examination programs, different tracks, and study tours. So you can ask many people about their experiences, and they would all say something different because there are never two MBAs that are exactly the same. And of course our location is also an asset.
How do you address potential concerns about Barcelona not being a major business hub (like London, New York, or Hong Kong) if you want to pursue business studies? [4:54]
I don't agree totally with that because Barcelona is very well-known in the startup environment. For example, we have the Mobile World Congress every year here. (Not this year; it had to be postponed due to the situation.) But there are many startups here because it’s a location where it’s easy to attract talent. So it is an important hub for startups. Many technological companies also have a subsidiary here. It’s true that compared to Madrid, they would have more headquarters, big corporations. That’s true. But Barcelona has always had this entrepreneurial spirit.
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It’s true that many students, when they come to Barcelona, I have to be very honest, their main goal is maybe not staying in Spain. They take the opportunity more to have an international experience. While they are here, they can learn Spanish, and that opens the world to all Latin America. Spain is a good connection with Europe from the geographical point of view, but also with Latin America from the language point of view.
We have two other schools in Spain: one in Barcelona, one in Madrid, IESE and IE. And I always say that for me, they are not competitors. For me, we are a hub.
Dr. Joe Bardinelli shares his journey from cop to doc [Show summary]
Not everyone follows a traditional path to a career in medicine. Today’s guest, emergency physician Dr. Joe Bardinelli, was a police officer for six years before deciding to enter medical school. In this episode, he shares how and why he went from being a cop to being a doc.
A physician's nontraditional path to med school [Show notes]
Dr. Joe Bardinelli earned his bachelor’s in Criminal Justice at age 22 and for six years worked as a police officer. At 28, he started osteopathic medical school at Lincoln Memorial University and then pursued his residency in emergency medicine at Conemaugh Health System. Today, he’s an ER doctor in Florida.
Can you tell us about your background outside of medicine? [1:48]
I grew up in the South. I was born in Georgia. My dad moved around to several jobs while we were growing up. He changed careers a couple of times. That took us to the Carolinas and subsequently Tennessee, so I was there from high school on and went to East Tennessee State University for my bachelor’s degree there, and that’s where I ended up going into law enforcement in Kingsport. I stayed there more or less up until I started medical school, which was over in Harrogate. That’s about an hour north of Knoxville, probably an hour and a half from where I went to high school.
<< What is Med School Really Like? [Find out from real students!] >>
Now we’re married. We started with one child, going into medical school, and then we had our fourth about two months into residency. We’ve got eight, six, five, and three now. We like to be outside; that’s why we moved down to Florida. We wanted to be near the water. We have no ties to the area down here. We just wanted to try something different, and we figured that if we were going to do it and make a big change that we might as well do it while the kids are young.
Do you think your father’s ability to change careers influenced you? [3:08]
It had a role in it, because he was a police officer as well. My grandfather was, and I think, ultimately, that’s probably why I ended up going into it because I felt like I needed to try it. He ended up getting out of law enforcement and went back to a school for neuro-diagnostics to do EEGs and other neurologic testing on the brain. While he was in that, it was right around middle school or high school, so that gave me the opportunity to go into the local hospital and volunteer.
<< READ: How Can I Continue Volunteering in the Age of COVID-19? >>
He worked closely with one of the local neurosurgeons there. At that time, it was much easier than it is now. I was able to go in and shadow surgeries and got to be around medicine more, so that’s kind of what sparked my interest. I knew in high school that I had an interest in it, but I still pursued law enforcement going into college just because I felt like I needed to. But I certainly don’t regret the decision. I had a lot of great experiences and learned a lot about life that I otherwise would've never seen had I not gone into that. I made some lifelong friends as well and still miss certain parts of it. But it’s definitely been a good change overall.
When did you start thinking you wanted to be a doc and not a cop? [4:22]
Probably two or three years into working at the police department, I started re-evaluating and trying to decide if this was something that I could really do for 30 years. In Tennessee, their retirement system is set up to where you have to work 30 years, and you have to be a certain age before you can retire. We just started thinking about the totality of the circumstances where we were at.
Obviously, nobody goes into law enforcement for money. It’s usually not a driver for people to go into it. It's more of a feeling like you’re doing something good for the community. But unfortunately, the administrative folks in a lot of the departments can beat that pride out of you bec...
This week, I'm taking a podcasting staycation and airing an encore of our most popular MBA podcast so far in 2020: Is an MBA Worth It, or Is the Sky Falling Down on the MBA Degree?
I recorded this episode in December, and it aired in January. Despite the radical transformation of our lives since then, most of the advice in this episode is still highly relevant. And perhaps the title, which was somewhat facetious when we chose it, has become almost prophetic.
The MBA may be more worth it than ever, especially if you can take advantage of the extended or added deadlines this cycle. The guidance on determining if the MBA is worth is still valid.
As to whether the sky is falling down on the MBA degree, it has to some extent fallen down on business schools, who fear massive “summer melt.” But next year when the recession hits, things could change.
And now, Is the MBA Worth it, or Is the Sky Falling Down on the MBA Degree?
For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.
Related Links:
Is an MBA Still Worth It?Paying for Your MBAHow Are Business Schools, Applicants, and Admitted Students Responding to COVID-19?Accepted’s MBA Admissions Consulting Services
Related Shows:
A Conversation About Today’s MBA MarketplaceEntrepreneurship at HBS: How Stride will Help You Fund Your FutureHow to Leverage an HBS Education: The Story of LeverEdge
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Zach Donato, who will be starting medical school later this year, reflects on his application experience and his expectations for med school [Show summary]
Zach Donato, who is preparing to start medical school, shares his perspective on getting accepted as a reapplicant, staying on top of the application process, and mentally preparing for med school.
An accepted incoming medical student shares why, in admissions, "the straight path is not always the best one." [Show notes]
Zachary Donato is happily anticipating the start of medical school. He graduated from Emory University in 2018 with a major in neuroscience and behavioral biology. He is currently pursuing a masters in biomedical science from the University of Miami, and this summer, he will start medical school.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? [1:56]
I was born in a small town in Virginia called Roanoke. I lived there until I was about five, then we ended up moving to Denver, Colorado. So I was raised very outdoorsy. I was hiking all the time, biking, running, you name it—outdoor activity, I probably tried it. So I grew up in Colorado. Then I went to Emory undergrad, like you said, and pursued my degree in neuroscience there.
How did you decide to pursue a career in medicine? [2:30]
The main thing was during my high school career, my AP biology class. So kind of up until that point I was all over the place. I was taking business classes and just trying to envision myself doing different things. I would say my teacher, my AP biology teacher, really inspired me and ignited a passion for me to pursue a scientific career. Nothing got me as excited as when I was doing the labs in biology or learning new concepts. It felt like nothing I’ve ever felt before. So I knew I wanted a career in the sciences and that kind of led me down the path of, “Okay, maybe medicine is something I should consider.”
How about clinical medicine? Where did you get the appetite for that? [3:16]
That next summer, I ended up volunteering in the post-anesthesia recovery unit at a hospital in Denver. I think as I started kind of getting familiar with patient care and listening to patients’ stories, that really excited me in a way that I was intrigued with. I realized that I could do a lot of little things to make a patient’s experience much better. I kind of wanted to keep doing that, so I kept exploring the medical field.
Your 2019/2020 application wasn’t your first medical school application—you applied for 2018/2019 first. What do you think contributed to your rejection the first time around? [4:02]
I think one of the things that applicants really struggle with is getting the whole picture together, right? So you have your letters of rec, you have your personal statement, you have your activities, but how can you put that into one really nice picture of yourself? So I think first of all, my letters of rec, I kind of rushed to get them. A lot of times students struggle getting close to people, especially with undergrad. You have so many people in your classes. I really struggled doing that. I think my personal statement really didn't reflect who I was and my journey. I told a lot of nice things, but it wasn't about my story. I think that's really where I struggled the first time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uckHryN-L4
What do you think you did differently the second time that made the difference? [4:44]
Preparation. You have to be ready for everything the day that AMCAS application comes out. I submitted on the first day. Getting the personal statement to be my story, and then having the activities backing up what I say about my story. Then getting close with the faculty at UM, really developing those relationships, and doing a lot to show my commitment to the medical field.
What was the idea behind pursuing a masters as a postbac? [5:18]
I kind of needed to reinvent myself a little bit. In college, I struggled.