Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast: Recent Episodes
Beyond BookSmart
Focus Forward is a comprehensive guide to improving Executive Functions - the mental skills like time-management, task-initiation, organization, and emotional regulation that allow us to be successful. Whether you're a parent looking to better support your child, or are simply looking to improve your own Executive Function (EF) skills, this podcast is for you. We'll be having guests of all kinds on, including parents who've had success in improving their child's EF challenges, adults who have navigated executive dysfunction, and experts who specialize in treating these types of issues. Focus Forward is an Executive Function Podcast sponsored by Beyond BookSmart.
In today’s episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. John Randolph - a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist, brain health consultant, and Clinical Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at Dartmouth’s Geisel School of Medicine. He’s the past president of both the National Academy of Neuropsychology and the New Hampshire Psychological Association, and his research focuses on cognitive health, executive functioning, and resilience. He’s also the author of The Brain Health Book: Using the Power of Neuroscience to Improve Your Life.
In our conversation, Dr. Randolph breaks down the CAPE model—a simple and powerful way to think about and take care of our brain health. We talked about cognitive strategies, activity engagement, preventing cognitive problems, and education about our brains. And, how small, consistent actions can make a big difference in our long-term brain health. We also discuss the impact of sleep, exercise, and social connections, which was validating for me as this is what I always like to ask my clients about. Dr. Randolph also shares a little about the research he’s doing with people with multiple sclerosis to figure out how to improve cognitive resilience. Our brains are fascinating, so listen today to learn how we can extend and enrich our lives by taking care of them!
Show Notes
Learn More About Dr. John Randolph
https://www.randolphnp.com/about-dr-john-randolph
The Brain Health Book: Using the Power of Neuroscience to Improve Your Life
https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393712872
12 ways to keep your brain young
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/12-ways-to-keep-your-brain-young
Build Better Work Habits: How Your Brain Changes with Practice
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/build-better-work-habits-how-your-brain-changes-with-practice
The Quiz My Colleague Used With Her Client
https://www.viacharacter.org/account/register
Learn More About 1:1 Coaching
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-works
Learn More about BrainTracks Teacher Professional Development
www.braintracks.com
Get in Touch
podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
Instagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching
www.beyondbooksmart.com
In this week’s episode, we’re talking all about routines. If you’ve ever tried to make a lasting change in your life, then you know how hard sustaining new habits can actually be. However, there are proven strategies that you can use to solidify habits into routines. In this short episode, I’ll be sharing some of my favorite practical strategies for building and sustaining routines.Thorugh the science of behavior change, you’ll discover new ways to build healthier habits through small changes that snowball into bigger transformations over time. Most importantly, my hope is that you find some practical approaches to build routines that work for you (even when life changes or gets stressful!)
Have thoughts or questions? Feel free to send me an email at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
I hope you enjoy listening! Here are the show notes for today’s episode:
Show notes:
Ep 12: How to Maintain Progress Through Times of Change
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=p9nb11s6hx
Ep 57: Decluttering Your Life: How to Make Space for What Matters (ft. Tidy Dad, Tyler Moore)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=pcr8a1lkgb
Atomic Habits
www.jamesclear.com/books
11 Personal Hygiene Tips for People With ADHD
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/11-personal-hygiene-tips-for-people-with-adhd
Time for Bed! Why Sleep is Essential for Executive Functioning
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/time-for-bed-why-sleep-is-essential-for-executive-functioning
On-Demand Webinar on Building Healthy Routines
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/building-healthy-routines-webinar-on-demand-recording
Tips from Calm.com
https://www.calm.com/blog/daily-routine
Get in Touch
podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
Instagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching
www.beyondbooksmart.com
Today, I’m joined by the one and only Tyler Moore, AKA “Tidy Dad.” Tyler is a New York City Public School teacher, a husband, and a father of three. He creates content based on his own experience with tidying that he hopes will help others find joy and order in what he calls, “the beautiful mess of life”. Tyler came on to Focus Forward to share his new book, Tidy Up Your Life, which was just released this month! The book is a deep dive into the connection between physical and mental clutter and how our ability to organize, prioritize, and adapt can shape the way we live. Tyler and I also explored how embracing uncertainty and the “messy middle” of change, pivoting when necessary, and experimenting with routines can lead to powerful shifts in both mindset and priorities. He also explained the thinking behind his step-by-step approach to maintaining our homes —starting with organizing, followed by tidying, and then cleaning. In his book, he expands his ideas on this by offering cleaning and tidying options that are thoughtful, simple, and accessible for each area of the house.
Tyler was fun to talk with and I hope you enjoy our conversation and learn a lot from him!
Here are the show notes from today’s episode:
Learn More About Tyler
Website
www.thetidydad.com
www.instagram.com/tidydad
Tidy Up Your Life
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751698/tidy-up-your-life-by-tyler-moore/
From the Beyond BookSmart Blog
Getting Organized: Minimizing Clutter In 4 Easy Steps - Beyond BookSmart Blog
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/getting-organized-minimizing-clutter-in-4-easy-steps
Gaining Calm by Organizing: How to Clear Your Space & Mind
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/meditation-in-organization-how-to-clear-your-space-mind
7 Tips for Organizing With ADHD: How to Organize Better
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/7-tips-for-organizing-with-adhd-how-to-organize-better
Get in Touch
podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
Instagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching
www.beyondbooksmart.com
Happy holidays, everyone! It’s such a special time of year and I’m grateful to all of you for choosing to spend some of it with us here at Focus Forward! Don’t forget to check out Beyond BookSmart’s New Year’s discount on our new monthly coaching subscription, which offers 2 of our 45-minute one to one coaching sessions per month for a more accessible price of $252. You have the choice to add more sessions if you need additional support. You can find more information in the show notes or by going to our website, beyondbooksmart.com. Still have questions? Shoot me an email at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com and I can help you out!
Parenting, much like coaching, is a journey full of questions, challenges, and opportunities for growth—both for our children and ourselves. How do we guide without pushing, encourage independence while offering support, and foster resilience in a world full of pressures? Ooof, it’s a lot of work.
Today, I’m joined by Neal Elliott, a parent and veteran coach at Beyond BookSmart who has been coaching since our company’s inception in 2006, and whose wisdom has shaped countless lives. I asked Neal to join me to share three stories about coaching. The stories he chose highlight the importance of trust, relevance in learning, and meaningful parent-child relationships. You’ll hear about a student who improved his algebra skills by connecting math to Minecraft, a long-term client who rebuilt confidence through trust, and a special in-person coaching moment from our pre-virtual coaching days.
Neal’s stories inspired our conversation and led us to talk about building trust, encouraging progress (even the smallest steps), and reframing failure as a vital learning opportunity. Whether you’re navigating the teen years or guiding a younger child, I hope Neal’s stories and wisdom will inspire reflection and offer some support for the road ahead. And be sure to check the show notes for Neal’s curated collection of books and other resources he wants to share with Focus Forward listeners. Neal knows what he’s talking about and he’s created a treasure trove, people!
Show Notes:
Neal Elliott’s Resource List
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14vTPW7F2IrCF8CDwKp8xTEXMSt5NsR0xiPG5i6boDxE/edit?usp=drive_link
Learn more about Beyond BookSmart’s 1:1 Coaching Program
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-works
See our current coaching subscription prices (discounted through January 5, 2025!)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/contact-us
Something I love about executive function skills is that when you host a podcast all about them, you will literally never run out of topics because EF skills impact every aspect of our lives. In today’s episode, we’re talking about romantic relationships and executive functioning. I’m joined by Dr. David Helfand, a licensed psychologist specializing in neurofeedback and couples therapy.
Dr. H, as he goes by with his patients, shared how executive functioning impacts relationships, particularly for couples navigating the impact of stress, trauma, and neurodivergence. I was so happy to also be joined by my podcast team—Sean Potts, our editor and producer, and Justice Abbott, our creative visionary. We got to dig deep into how to make our relationships healthier by improving our communication, emotional regulation, and intimacy. Whether you're looking to strengthen your relationship or support a partner with executive function challenges, this episode is packed with insights to help you move forward together. Just a note if you’re listening with children around - we briefly and non-graphically mention sex, as this often an important aspect of romantic relationships.
Some of the questions we covered today were submitted by our listeners. If you want to be part of the conversation, be sure to sign up for our subscriber newsletter and follow Beyond BookSmart on our social media channels.
Episode 55 - Dr. David Helfand - couples and EF
Learn More About Dr. David Helfand
https://www.lifewisevt.com/david-helfand-psyd/
https://marriagequest.org/dr-david-helfand-psyd/
https://marriagequest.org/marriage-retreat/
Further Reading
Why You Should Stop Rescuing Your Partner (and what to do instead)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/why-you-should-stop-rescuing-your-partner-and-what-to-do-instead
Relationships & How ADHD and Executive Function can impact them
https://sethperler.com/%F0%9F%A7%A0-relationships-how-adhd-and-executive-function-can-impact-them/
The Impact of ADHD on Marriage
https://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/adhd.10.3.9.20553?journalCode=adhd
Effects of adult ADHD on intimate partnerships
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10522158.2023.2165585
Get in Touch
podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
Instagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching
www.beyondbooksmart.com
In today’s episode, we’re diving into a topic that’s so important for families navigating the ups and downs of childhood and parenting: behavioral and Executive Function challenges in kids.
I had the pleasure of inviting back to Focus Forward the wonderful Dr. Nerissa Bauer, a developmental pediatrician with a wealth of knowledge and compassion for helping families thrive. Nerissa has been a great partner with us at Beyond BookSmart and I’m so happy to be able to share her wisdom with you all again. Listen today to hear us explore the messages behind children’s behaviors, the connection between emotional regulation and executive function, and how parents and caregivers can approach challenges with curiosity, collaboration, and love. Dr. Bauer shared invaluable insights, from understanding the “why” behind behaviors to the power of the pause and how we can model self-regulation for ourselves and for our kids. Be sure to check the show notes after you listen to learn more about Nerissa’s work.
Learn More About Dr. Nerissa Bauer
YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@NerissaBauerMD
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-bauer-md-mph-faap-4b692967/
Let’s Talk Kids’ Health
https://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/
Teach Me ADHD Virtual Courses for Parents and Kids
https://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/virtual-courses
Ep 39: Speaking Up: How to Empower Our Kids to Advocate for Themselves (ft. Dr. Nerissa Bauer)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=j5rz3vnbkp
Emotional Regulation Resources
Emotional Regulation as a Kid Can Be Challenging: These 7 Activities May Help
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/7-activities-to-help-your-child-with-emotional-regulation
How Beyond BookSmart Supports Students with Emotional Regulation Challenges
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-we-help/stress-management
Emotional Regulation and Executive Function Skills: A Powerful Link
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/emotional-regulation-and-executive-function-skills-a-powerful-link
How Can We Help Kids With Self-Regulation? - The Child Mind Institute
https://childmind.org/article/can-help-kids-self-regulation/
Co-regulation: Helping children and teens navigate big emotions - Harvard Health Publishing
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/co-regulation-helping-children-and-teens-navigate-big-emotions-202404033030
Get in Touch
podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
Instagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching
www.beyondbooksmart.com
Ah, I’m so excited about this one! In today’s episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with the one and only Kendra Adachi - popular author, podcast host, and creator of “The Lazy Genius” approach. Kendra offers a refreshing perspective on using and trusting our executive function strengths and supporting ourselves where we face challenges. Her method encourages us to be "geniuses" about what matters while allowing ourselves to let go of what doesn’t.
Throughout our conversation, we dive into Kendra's new book, "The Plan," which brings a compassionate twist to time management. We also explore the impact of small, intentional changes, trusting ourselves, and how to push back against pressure to “always do more.” Kendra also breaks down her five-step Lazy Genius Method for tackling big projects: prioritizing, essentializing, organizing, personalizing, and systemizing. Kendra’s insights remind us that we can find real contentment by honoring what truly serves us, trusting our instincts, and embracing the season we’re in. I hope you enjoy listening and walk away feeling as inspired as I did!
Show notes:
Learn More About Kendra Adachi and The Lazy Genius: https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/
The Plan - a book all about compassionate time management: https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/theplan
Kendra on Instagram: @thelazygenius
Learn more about Beyond BookSmart: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/
It’s no secret that parenting a child with ADHD can be overwhelming at times. However, with the right mindset and support, it can also be fulfilling and inspiring. In this week’s episode of Focus Forward, I sat down with Archie Chimanayi, an ADHD professional who offers assessment, treatment, and management of ADHD, Autism, Depression and Anxiety for children and adults. Beyond his expertise, Archie also has a son who has ADHD and autism, which means he has a unique perspective of a professional and a parent of a child with a diagnosis that impacts Executive Functioning. I was lucky enough to be a guest on Archie’s “ADHD Care” podcast back in May of 2024 and left the conversation knowing that he would be a perfect guest for the Focus Forward audience.
The format of this episode is a little different than our usual interview format. I'll be playing three short clips from our original chat. After each clip, I’ll share some of our recent conversation where we went beyond what we covered initially, bringing in fresh insights and more detailed discussion to help you as a parent, caretaker, or professional. From knowing what to look for, navigating the feelings that can come up after a diagnosis, and understanding the importance of self-care for men—this episode is about taking a closer look at the challenges and opportunities that come with raising a child with ADHD. I hope you enjoy the conversation!
Here are the show notes from the episode:
Learn More About Archie Chimanayi
ADHD Care, Ltd.
https://www.adhdcare.co.uk/?p=about
Archie’s Video Tour of Exhibit Hall: ADHD Conference in Baltimore (2023)
https://youtu.be/cHahKPTxf8A?feature=shared
Episode 61 - Navigating ADHD: Parenting, Podcasting, and Personal Insights with Hannah Choi
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/episode-61-navigating-adhd-parenting-podcasting-and-personal-insights-with-hannah-choi--60147752
Episode 69 - Focus Forward Podcast Feature with Hannah Choi
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/episode-69-focus-forward-podcast-feature-with-hannah-choi--62388901
Other resources mentioned
Men with ADHD Facebook Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/mensadhdsupportgroup/
ADDitude Adults with ADHD Facebook Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/additudemag/
Hi everyone! We're right in the middle of ADHD Awareness Month, and to celebrate, we're bringing back one of our all-time favorite episodes with a twist. Today, we look at what makes ADHD brains tick, explore both medication and non-medication strategies, and talk about how pairing these with executive function tools can build confidence in people with ADHD. We also give tips for those of you who are exploring a potential ADHD diagnosis for yourself or your child. This episode also includes voices from a number of people with ADHD who graciously recorded their thoughts to share with us. Trust me, you’ll want to stick around until the end, because we have the most adorable voice you’ve ever heard, sharing their experience with ADHD—I can’t wait for you to hear it!
Show notes:
Episode 51 - Re-release of ADHD episode
ADHD Fundamentals
ADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmart
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022
Fact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) Topics
http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/adhd-facts.pdf
Beyond BookSmart’s ADHD Webinar
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/on-demand-webinar-registration-adhd-fundamentals
ADHD Brains
How Does ADHD Affect The Brain?
https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/the-brains-structure-and-function
ADHD & the Brain
https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Families/FFF-Guide/ADHD_and_the_Brain-121.aspx
2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gA
The Default Mode Network, Motivation, and Attention
https://www.labschool.org/news/stories/default-mode-network-motivation-and-attention
ADHD Neuroscience 101
https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-neuroscience-101
ADHD and Gender
ADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measures
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827008/
The Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly Miles
https://www.inclusivetherapists.com/blog/the-intersection-of-adhd-and-gender-diversity
A Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMC
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195638/
ADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for Parents
https://psychcentral.com/adhd/people-with-adhd-more-likely-to-question-gender-identity
ADHD Diagnosis Support
How to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind Institute
https://childmind.org/article/how-to-get-an-adhd-diagnosis/
Diagnosis of ADHD | CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/
ADHD Symptom Management
The Exercise Prescription for ADHD
https://chadd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/ATTN_06_12_Exercise.pdf
What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-should-you-treat-first-adhd-or-mental-health-challenges
Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy - CHADD
https://chadd.org/for-adults/cognitive-behavioral-therapy/
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and Options
https://psychcentral.com/adhd/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-adhd
Non-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard Health
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/non-drug-treatments-for-adult-adhd
Long time no see! Welcome back to season 4 of Focus Forward AND our 50th episode of the podcast. We’re so happy you’re here with us as we begin the best season yet. Today’s episode topic was chosen based on research we’ve gathered about people interested in coaching. According to our questionnaire, planning & prioritizing is the #1 Executive Function skill that students and adults alike are currently struggling with. In this episode, I’ll be sharing some of our favorite tools and strategies to help you or someone you love buiild this critical skill.
Show notes:
Executive Functioning and Positive Outcomes for Children
Executive Function & Self-Regulation
https://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/
Executive Function Skills Predict Children's Success in Life and in School
https://www.mindinthemaking.org/stories/executive-function-skills-predict-childrens-success-in-life-and-in-school
Ellen Galinsky’s books on EF and children and adolescents
The Breakthrough Years
https://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/
Mind in the Making
https://www.mindinthemaking.org/
Focus Forward Episodes Mentioned
Ep. 40: The Breakthrough Years: Raising Thriving Teens Through Executive Function (ft. Ellen Galinsky)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=fhebx5zqfl
Ep. 14: 4 Steps to Build Time Management Strategies You'll Use for Life
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=2hd9mmw2wi
Ep. 25: Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction: Expert Tips to Help Motivate Your Kids
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=e5k6nv0wte
Executive Function for Teachers and Classrooms
www.braintracks.com
7 Classroom Management Strategies That Teach Students Executive Function Skills
https://www.braintracks.com/blog-posts/7-classroom-management-strategies-that-teach-students-executive-function-skills
Today’s episode is just for us parents during this back to school time. As you already know, supporting the people we love comes more easily when we feel good about ourselves. However, when things get busy and our energy drains, it’s easy to forget about taking care of ourselves. With the return to school providing plenty of chaos for us parents, now is the perfect time to prepare and make sure you’re ready to not only support your kids, but also yourself. So today, we’re exploring five key Executive Function areas that will really support you during this time and give you some tips and strategies in each area. Even if you can’t realistically do all of the things I cover, pick one - just one - that you’re going to commit to doing. Make observations over the next few weeks - what was hard? What was easy? Did it make a difference? Is there something else you can add? (This reflection is an Executive Function exercise in and of itself!)
Show Notes:
Register for our Back-to-School Webinar on August 14
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/back-to-school-relief-2024
Watch Our Past Webinars
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/workshops-and-events
Focus Forward Episodes Mentioned
Ep 44: Ask the Coaches: Answering Your Top Questions about Summer, Motivation, Transitions, and more!
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=z1tfw9hl2a
Ep 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About It
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6d
Ep 42: Insomnia, ADHD, and Sleep Hygiene: How to Transform Your Life Through Better Sleep (ft. Marlee Boyle)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=rpuckdh0f5
Other Resources
Covey Quadrants/Eisenhower Matrix (Hannah’s version)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bzg9nObT0HbK5EjK2s7bBW3deSRzstAVA_v_VEX71zY/edit?usp=sharing
ClutterBug
www.clutterbug.me
Today’s episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Deborah Korn, a licensed clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience treating trauma with EMDR therapy. If you haven’t heard of EMDR before, you’re in for a treat because this therapy technique is pretty mind-blowing. From our conversation, you’ll learn what EMDR therapy is, how it works, and who might be a good candidate for this innovative intervention for coping with trauma (spoiler alert: you don’t need to have had a big traumatic experience to benefit from EMDR!) Best of all, Dr. Korn shared some inspiring and heartwarming stories about people whose lives have been changed for the better (or maybe even saved) by EMDR therapy. I hope you enjoy the episode!
Show notes
Learn more about Dr. Korn
https://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/about-deborah-korn-psyd
Every Memory Deserves Respect Book
https://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/book
Learn More About EMDR
EMDR International Association
https://www.emdria.org/about-emdr-therapy/
EMDR Institute
https://www.emdr.com/what-is-emdr/
Today’s episode is all about obsessive-compulsive disorder or OCD. I met up with Dr. Anthony Bram, a clinical psychologist in Lexington, Massachusetts to learn more about this fascinating brain-based condition. Dr. Bram works with adults and kids, providing support for a wide range of mental health challenges, including OCD, anxiety, depression, and learning differences. He explained to me that he became interested in helping people with OCD during his predoctoral internship. He realized that the traditional kinds of psychotherapy that he had been learning were not so effective in alleviating the distressing symptoms of his patients with OCD. This led him to discover a specialized form of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) called exposure with response prevention (ERP). Dr. Bram continued to learn more during his postdoctoral work at the Menninger Clinic, which was in Topeka, KS at the time. There, while primarily pursuing advanced training in traditional modalities of treatment and assessment, he also sought the supervision of a cognitive behavioral therapist who specialized in OCD so he could begin learning and applying ERP and other CBT techniques. This experience taught him the importance of being flexible and expanding his therapeutic skills to better meet the diverse needs of his clients. I’m so happy to bring Dr. Bram on so we can all learn about OCD, its connection to executive functioning, and how to support people in our lives who may be struggling with it and its related challenges. Enjoy!
Show notes:
Learn more about Dr. Bram
http://www.dranthonybram.com/
Learn more about OCD
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd
https://iocdf.org/about-ocd/
OCD activity in the prefrontal cortex (image)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x6W41yZhcbsnf4ZJ9qCY1R8J4-_jv0sl/view?usp=sharing
Find a Provider
https://iocdf.org/find-help/?_provider_proximity=42.3600825%2C-71.0588801%2C50%2CBoston%252C%2520MA%252C%2520USA
Okay, so this week is a tasty episode! I invited Becca King, a registered dietitian and social media influencer with nearly 200k followers, to join me on Focus Forward to talk about food, ADHD, and Executive Function as the three are more interconnected than you might think. We talk about many aspects of food and cooking - how to lower or get rid of barriers that may prevent us from cooking or eating nourishing food, meal planning and how to make it work for you and how it may change as your life situation changes. We also talked about the importance of crunch (haha!), finding satisfaction in the food we eat, and how to remove the guilt or shame we might feel when we don’t cook or eat how we feel like we “should”. Becca follows an “all foods fit” approach to nutrition and really helps people get to a place where they can nourish themselves with nutrient-dense foods and eat the fun stuff, too. Thanks for listening and be sure to check out Becca’s instagram and resources in the show notes below!
Show Notes
Learn more about Becca King
Instagram: www.instagram.com/adhd.nutritionist
Becca’s Tips for Remembering to Eat: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Os3jH51Y-7BwNQdn7zSntTzj1b2FBswP/view?usp=drive_link
Becca’s Sensory Descriptors to help understand your sensory preferences with food: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gjbDnVhwDIvYbodCGtu7tGB0vbWS60aU/view?usp=drive_link
ADHD and Food
Executive Dysfunction 101: How to Treat ADHD's Most Difficult Symptom: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/executive-dysfunction-101-how-to-treat-adhds-most-difficult-symptom#howtotreatED
ADHD Diet For Adults: Foods To Eat And Avoid:
https://add.org/adhd-diet/
Nutrition in the Management of ADHD: A Review of Recent Research:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10444659/
Nutrition and ADHD: https://chadd.org/about-adhd/nutrition-and-adhd/
As Executive Function coaches, we often talk about how working on Executive Function skills is really an act of building self-confidence. Learning to be confident in yourself and believing you can get through the hard stuff is the key to trying new things, reaching your goals, and truly making a lasting difference in all areas of life. We work hard to build this confidence in our clients, just as my guest today does with his college students. James Sanders the third is a professor of public speaking and interpersonal communication at Fayetteville Technical Community College in North Carolina. He joined me to share ho teaching public speaking has shown how students can truly blossom when they step outside of their comfort zone and grow. I’ll let him tell you more about the work he does, but this man is making positive change happen wherever he goes. We talked about the importance of community, of trusting yourself, and saying yes to the scary things that are a stepping stone towards reaching your goals. In addition to being interesting to talk to and an inspiring ray of sunshine,
Hi everyone! Today we’re having another Q&A with some of our amazing Executive Function coaches. Together, we answer your top questions pertaining to summer support, motivation, transitions, and so much more! Our last coach Q&A episode was in December and became our second most listened to episode of all time - so we figured why not do it again? The three Beyond BookSmart coaches I met with this time are Vin Kachurik, Cass Estey, and Maria Ares. If you’ve attended any of our free webinars, you may recognize a few of their voices. Although many of the questions we answered were about high school and college life, the tools and strategies we discuss can be used by anyone at any age. So tune in and get some support for the inevitable transitions and challenges that we all face at this time of year! And when you’re done listening, be sure to check out the show notes for some links to more resources and deeper dives into some of the tools we talked about today.
Webinar: Finishing Strong: Executive Function Solutions for End-of-Year Success
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/finishing-strong-executive-function-solutions-for-end-of-school-year-success
James Clear (Atomic Habits) Resources
https://jamesclear.com/eisenhower-box
https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits
Covey Quadrants Explained
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/covey-time-management-matrix
How to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment Experts
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/how-to-increase-motivation-with-adhd-10-tips-from-experts
Spoon Theory Explained
https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
80/20 College Split
https://drive.google.com/file/d/198Yao_AjXR8KwBxUoRu8IGGIQIgg0wAa/view?usp=drive_link
College Readiness Skills List
https://drive.google.com/file/d/125bkdoLNuBA-3qagORblx7ICSBBVGm74/view?usp=sharing
A Day in the Life of a Sumo Wrestler
https://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/sumo/sumo04.html
Today we’re talking all about creativity. You may have already known that Executive Function skills benefit our creativity, but what you might know is that creative hobbies can actually have huge benefits for the development of our Executive Functioning. In this episode, we explore this symbiotic relationship so you can learn how to enjoy the brain benefits of both creativity and Executive Function. The full episode is now available to stream on all your favorite podcast platforms (linked above!)
As always, thank you for being part of the Focus Forward community! If you enjoy this episode, be sure to leave us a 5-star rating on the platform you're listening on ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Here are the show notes from today’s episode:
Benefits of Creative Hobbies
Association of Enjoyable Leisure Activities With Psychological and Physical Well-Being: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863117/
Crafts as serious hobbies: Impact and benefits in later life: https://intellectdiscover.com/content/journals/10.1386/crre.9.1.93_1
Window of Tolerance
What Is the Window of Tolerance, and Why Is It So Important: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/making-the-whole-beautiful/202205/what-is-the-window-tolerance-and-why-is-it-so-important
How to Help Your Clients Understand Their Window of Tolerance: https://www.nicabm.com/trauma-how-to-help-your-clients-understand-their-window-of-tolerance/
Managing Perfectionism
Conquering Failure: Expert Tips for Building a More Resilient Life: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/overcoming-procrastination-webinar-on-demand-registration-0
Focus Forward Ep 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About It: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6d
The Perils of Handmade Perfectionism: https://luvliness.net/2024/02/the-perils-of-handmade-perfectionism/
5 Teachings From The Japanese Wabi Sabi Philosophy That Can Drastically Improve Your Life: https://www.omaritani.com/blog/wabi-sabi-philosophy-teachings
Creative Hobbies and Executive Function
Directions Practice: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zIOa53QyoJkx98mhLCluX2NGNgZ4iXN-ag2hW-gHUL0/edit
Sewing with Threads Podcast - Sewing and Neurodiversity: https://www.threadsmagazine.com/2024/04/03/sewing-and-neurodiversity-with-hannah-choi-episode-76
Learn more about Hannah and Bonnie (Bonnah Co Fiber Arts):
www.bonnahco.com and www.instagram.com/bonnahcofiberarts
Hi everyone! Today we’re talking about sleep. I met with Marlee Boyle, a respiratory therapist and sleep specialist in Nova Scotia, Canada. Marlee co-owns a sleep clinic and specializes in helping people with ADHD improve their sleep. This episode is one that you’ll want to listen to because we all should, as Marlee says, “start with sleep”. You’ll also learn about sleep apnea and how important it is to address this, differences in circadian rhythms and what to do about them, how cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I) can help, and how to support kids who have difficulty sleeping.
As always, thank you for listening! Here are the show notes from today’s episode:
Learn More about Marlee Boyle
https://www.sleep-works.com/
Sleep Works’ Favorite Sleep Tools
https://www.sleep-works.com/amazon-store
Marlee’s Venn diagram of Sleep and ADHD symptoms
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P9Q9KHzCNe7_ej0J9EwbwWPYa9SWykTb/view?usp=sharing
Sleep Resources
CDC Sleep Resources
https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/resources.html
Sleep Resources from MIT
https://health.mit.edu/community/sleep
ADHD and Sleep
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health/adhd-and-sleep
Ep. 41 of Focus Forward - Dr. Olivardia shares some information about sleep apnea and his own experience with ADHD and sleep
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=mfbk3q8d60
ADHD and Sleep Problems: This is Why You’re Always Tired
https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-sleep-disturbances-symptoms/
Today’s conversation explores a really important topic - the occurrence of ADHD with other diagnoses, also known as comorbidities. If you aren’t sure if this topic applies to you, I encourage you to listen anyway because you might end up learning something that could truly, truly help yourself or someone you love in ways you never expected. I learned so much from my guest, Dr. Roberto Olivardia, who is a clinical psychologist and lecturer at Harvard Medical School. I met Roberto at the ADHD conference in Baltimore last year and was excited to get him on Focus Forward. He’s just a wealth of knowledge and super interesting to talk to. Roberto and I started out exploring the comorbidities that can occur with ADHD, such as OCD, anxiety, depression, and bipolar disorder. Our conversation led us to sleep and sleep apnea and eating disorders in boys and men and the connection to ADHD here, too. This important connection is not talked about or studied as much as it needs to be. Thank you for listening and I hope our conversation resonates with you or someone you love.
Show Notes
Learn More About Dr. Roberto Olivardia
Roberto Olivardia’s profile: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/profile/roberto-olivardia
McLean Hospital’s Free Mental Health Webinars: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/video-series/mental-health-webinars
Facing Insecurities With Body Dysmorphic Disorder - webinar hosted by Roberto: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/video/facing-insecurities-body-dysmorphic-disorder
The Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys: https://www.amazon.com/Adonis-Complex-Identify-Prevent-Obsession/dp/068486911X/
Roberto Olivardia on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=roberto+olivardia
Learn More about the Connection between ADHD and Other Diagnoses
What Is Complex ADHD? Symptoms, Diagnosis & Treatment by Theresa Cerulli, MD:
https://www.additudemag.com/complex-adhd-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment/
Not Just ADHD? Helping Children with Multiple Concerns: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/features/not-just-adhd.html
Are Eating Disorders Related to Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777329/
Is obstructive sleep apnea associated with ADHD? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21808754/
Hi everyone! It’s a special day for us here at Focus Forward. Today marks our 40th episode, just days ahead of our two-year podcast anniversary. I want to thank our amazing team at Beyond BookSmart and of course, you, our listeners. It means so much to us to know that so many are finding the work that we are doing here at Focus Forward helpful.
Today’s episode is also really special because I had the ultimate privilege and joy of getting to sit down with Ellen Galinsky. Ellen is the OG of researching and writing about Executive Function skills, parenthood, and child development. In addition to being the author of many books, she also founded the Families and Work Institute along with many other life accomplishments you can read about in her bio. You may have heard of or read her book “Mind in the Making” which explores seven life skills young kids need to thrive - and these life skills are Executive Function skills! In her books, she takes the brilliant work done by researchers all over the world and writes about it in a way that we non-researchers can understand and use in our lives. She’s done the same in her new book, The Breakthrough Years, which comes out in a couple of weeks on March 26. The Breakthrough Years teaches us more than just how to help our teenagers thrive, it helps us understand them. As you’ll hear Ellen explain, she asked teenagers what they want people to know about them and the messages that teens want us adults to hear make up the five chapters of the book. So tune in and learn how to help raise thriving teens through a deep knowledge of what drives them and through the application of Executive Function strategies.
Learn More About Ellen Galinsky
Ellen Galinsky’s Website
https://www.ellengalinsky.com
The Breakthrough Years
https://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/
Mind in the Making
https://www.mindinthemaking.org/
Families and Work Institute
https://www.familiesandwork.org/
Other Parenting Resources I’ve Been Loving Lately
Lisa Damour’s books and "Ask Lisa" podcast
Aliza Pressman’s book and "Raising Good Humans" podcast
Never Enough by Jennifer Breheny Wallace
Adam Grant’s books and “Rethinking” podcast (not parenting-focused, but still very much applicable!)
Kenneth Ginsburg’s book, Congrats - You’re Having a Teen!
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Today’s episode covers a topic that’s close to my heart - both as a parent and an Executive Function coach. We’ll be talking about self-advocacy for kids and adolescents with Dr. Nerissa Bauer, a behavioral pediatrician from Indiana whom I met through my colleague Wendy Craven. Nerissa and I got to meet in person at the ADHD conference in 2023, which was just so much fun that I had to bring her onto Focus Forward! Together, we explored the importance of emotional literacy, which empowers kids to recognize and express their feelings effectively. We also discussed how kids, especially those facing learning challenges or other diagnoses, can learn to advocate for themselves. You’ll hear Dr. Bauer share invaluable insights and actionable tips for parents and caregivers of all ages, from toddlers to high school seniors. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation as much as I enjoyed being a part of it!
Here are the show notes from today's episode:
Learn More About Dr. Nerissa Bauer
YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@NerissaBauerMD
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-bauer-md-mph-faap-4b692967/
Let’s Talk Kids’ Health
https://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/
Teach Me ADHD Virtual Course for Parents and Kids
https://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/teach-me-adhd-sales-page-general-registration
Self-Advocacy Resources
6 tips for helping your grade-schooler learn to self-advocate
https://www.understood.org/en/articles/6-tips-for-helping-your-grade-schooler-learn-to-self-advocate
The Importance of Self-Advocacy
https://www.understood.org/en/articles/the-importance-of-self-advocacy
Getting Students on the Road to Self-Advocacy
https://www.edutopia.org/article/getting-students-road-self-advocacy/
Self-Advocacy for College Students
https://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-students
Emotional Literacy
Marc Brackett, PhD talks emotional literacy with Brene Brown
https://brenebrown.com/podcast/dr-marc-brackett-and-brene-on-permission-to-feel/
Emotional Knowing and Emotional Literacy
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/envy/202209/emotional-knowing-and-emotional-literacy
Developing Emotional Literacy Across the Grade Levels
https://www.edutopia.org/article/developing-emotional-literacy-across-grade-levels/
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Hi everyone! In today’s episode, I sat down with Dr. Bianca Busch to talk about college students, their experiences adjusting to college, and how they can take care of their mental health. Dr. Busch is a psychiatrist in the Dallas, TX area and also the founder and CEO of The College Psychiatrists, an organization dedicated to supporting the mental health needs of college students.
We explored topics such as the importance of emotion regulation - always a fave of mine, learning to recognize and manage feelings of overwhelm, and the role of friends and other support networks in promoting mental well-being in college students. As we know, the college experience is not just about academics as students must learn how to balance classroom demands with healthy social relationships. With a compassionate approach, which really resonated with me, Dr. Bush offered guidance on fostering resilience and building a foundation for success both in college and after graduation. Listen to learn from her knowledge and experience as she shares her insights into the unique challenges that college students face today.
Here are some relevant resources from today's episode:
Learn More About Dr. Bianca Busch
https://www.drbiancabusch.com/
https://www.collegepsychiatrist.com/
https://www.instagram.com/collegepsychiatrist/
Overwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Control
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/overwhelmed-by-college-heres-how-to-regain-control
Freshman Social Jitters? 5 Tips to Making Friends in College
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/freshman-social-jitters-5-tips-to-making-friends-in-college
What College Students Struggle with Most (and what you can do to help)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-college-students-struggle-with-most-and-what-you-can-do-to-help
Before Heading to College, Make a Mental Health Checklist
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/well/mind/mental-health-college-students.html
Two Keys to Helping College Students Feel Like They Belong
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/two_keys_to_helping_college_students_feel_like_they_belon
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
This week’s episode is focused on something that is both widespread and completely misunderstood - imposter syndrome. After all, there’s nothing inherently wrong with people who feel like imposters. It’s not a syndrome - especially to the degree to which the term “syndrome” is appropriate. In reality, the more accurate name is something more like “imposter phenomenon, which is actually a term coined by the original researchers on this subject, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, in their initial papers. Regardless of what you want to call it, feeling like an imposter who doesn’t deserve the success they’ve experienced or the position they’re in is all too common in today’s world. Left unchecked, feeling like an imposter can grow beyond self-doubt and prevent us from feeling fulfilled or confident in all areas of our lives. Luckily, my guest today is Dr. Nicole Pulliam - aka the perfect person to help you overcome your self-doubt! I was connected with Nicole through a colleague of mine, Allison Larthey, who saw her speak at the Women’s Leadership Summit in NJ in the fall of 2023. After having the pleasure of speaking with her for this episode, I now know why she was so impressed by Nicole’s presentation. Tune in to hear our conversation about how to manage feeling like an imposter, the impact of it on our lives, and what you can do to better support yourself and those around you.
Here are the show notes for today's episode:
Learn More About Dr. Nicole Pulliam
https://www.realandworthyllc.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbSFe0Fumnk
Learn more about Imposter (or Impostor, both are right) Phenomenon
The Imposter Phenomenon in High Achieving Women: Dynamics and Therapeutic Intervention - Clance and Imes
https://www.womeninanesthesiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ip_high_achieving_women.pdf
Imposterism, Perfectionism, and Burnout – A Toxic Triad - Dr. Tracey Marks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BMSsKWJ8gs
Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome
https://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome
Feeling Like an Impostor Is Not a Syndrome
https://slate.com/business/2016/04/is-impostor-syndrome-real-and-does-it-affect-women-more-than-men.html
It's Not 'Impostor Syndrome' When You're Black and Woman
https://watercoolerconvos.com/2016/04/20/its-not-impostor-syndrome-when-youre-black-and-woman/
Dealing with Imposter Syndrome (ADHD Storytime from How to ADHD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wbCf0gNSw
The Connection Between ADHD and Imposter Syndrome | Psychology Today
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/on-your-way-with-adhd/202302/the-connection-between-adhd-and-imposter-syndrome
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Could we really have a podcast called “Focus Forward” without eventually covering the topic of attention and focus? Of course not! Rest assured, today’s the day, and as a person with ADHD, difficulty paying attention is one of the most frustrating aspects of my brain. Most annoyingly, I seem to notice just about everything that’s happening around me but still end up missing so much of what’s actually important for me to remember. Luckily, I now know that this is simply a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was some inherent character flaw. Can you relate to that struggle, too? Well, then this episode is for you. Today, we explore the critical Executive Function skill of attention and examine some of the most effective strategies for supporting focus in people of all learning profiles. I hope you enjoy and gain some valuable ideas to try out in your own life! If you do, be sure to leave us a review (and let me know at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com!)
In the meantime, here are our show notes for today’s episode:
Impact of Meditation on the Brain
Mindfulness Meditation Is Related to Long-Lasting Changes in Hippocampal Functional Topology during Resting State: A Magnetoencephalography Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312586/
When science meets mindfulness
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-researchers-study-how-mindfulness-may-change-the-brain-in-depressed-patients/
7 Ways Meditation Can Actually Change The Brain
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/02/09/7-ways-meditation-can-actually-change-the-brain/
Myth of Multitasking
Dan Crenshaw’s YouTube Video - Try the Myth of Multitasking Exercise!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQyfirx2HA
Psychology and Neuroscience Blow Up the Myth of Effective Multitasking
https://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/psychology-and-neuroscience-blow-up-the-myth-of-effective-multitasking.html
Stop Multitasking. No, Really — Just Stop It.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/29/opinion/do-one-thing-at-a-time-management.html?unlocked_article_code=1.NE0.5X_B.EppCuwbpn7YE∣=url-share
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Space Cadet
Airhead
Daydreamer
Absent-Minded Professor
Ditzy
Scatterbrained
She’s got her Head in the Clouds
Dreamer
Any of those names sound familiar to you? I can feel my own gut reaction to saying them aloud just now and know that I have either been called them by others or called myself them inside my head. As a person with attention and memory challenges, it’s bound to happen that I forget stuff or neglect to pay attention to stuff I really should notice. And, ironically and very annoyingly, I seem to notice literally everything going on around me and at the same time, not notice the important stuff when it’s really, really important for me to do so. Now I know that this is a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was just a character flaw. Can anyone relate to that, too? Well, today’s episode is about the EF skill of attention, which as you may know already, is tightly connected to the EF skill of memory. They’re like best friends and worst enemies at the same time. Frenemies, as they kids say, wait how long has that word been around? Do people still say it? Am I dating myself by saying it or making myself seem cooler than I really am. Lemme look this up MAKE TYPING NOISE Okay, I just did a quick google search and “frenemy” was first used in 1953! It’s often attributed to Jessica Mitford, Queen of the Muckrakers and notorious Civil Rights lawyer who wrote in her 1977 book “Decca: The Letters of Jessica Mitford” saying that her sister came up with the word. Wait, what’s a muckraker…hold on. Ahh, wait, okay, Hannah pay attention and get back to the episode at hand. We can learn about muckrakers later on.
Okay yes, so, the connection between memory and attention. When I interviewed Dr. Sherrie All for episode 16 of Focus forward, which was all about memory, she said this:
memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place.
So, if you struggle with remembering stuff, it might be worth an investigation into your attention EF skill. That’s what we’re going to do today. We’ll take a look at how inattention can impact our lives and what we can to do set ourselves up for success. I’ll teach you some tools and strategies our coaches like to share with our clients and I’ll also spend a little time debunking the myth of multitasking. Sorry folks, it’s not a thing. At least, not for most of us.
Before we dive in, I want to talk briefly about the connection between EF skills and our emotions. As you have heard me say before and I’ll say again and again, our emotions are connected to our executive functioning. If we’re stressed, having trouble regulating our emotions, or in a crisis, our EF skills may be, will likely be, harder to access, especially the ones that we struggle with in regular times. So, if you find it hard to pay attention and your memory is anything like mine, go easy on yourself, especially in challenging times. Improving your attention can help with remembering more but the reality is that some people will still have challenges with memory, even if they are fully paying attention. Have some grace, some compassion for yourself. Listening to this episode, learning some strategies, and taking the time to learn and care for yourself is a good way to do this.
Okay, so other than the direct impact on memory, how else can inattention impact our lives? Inattention can lead us to overlook important details. This can look like not noticing a negative sign in a math problem, missing a payment to the dentist, entering a wrong number on our taxes or maybe not even paying our taxes at all, missing a meeting with the boss, or putting the waistband on a pair of pants backward. That last one was me. I love to sew clothing and I did that once. Wait, I actually did it twice. In the same day. I noticed that I had put the waistband on backward and then unstitched it all, which if you’ve ever unstitched something, you know how tedious it is and then I did it AGAIN. So, inattention can have some real consequences on our grades, our finances, our time, and our self-esteem. It can also have a severe effect on our health and safety. In the kitchen, it can result in injuries or fires, while driving it could potentially lead to fatal accidents, while playing sports, we could hurt ourselves or others. We could miss cues our bodies are giving us and unintentionally delay treatment for a health condition. We could miss dangers in our environment, like when I walked head-on into a guy wire. The guy wire was fine. My knee was not. Wait a second. Is it guy wire or guide wire? I’ve always said guy wire but maybe it’s guide wire? Hold on…wait wait wait back to the episode, you can research that later, Hannah.
Anyway, there are a ton of other situations I’m sure you can imagine or pull up from your own life experience. The message here is that attention is a critically important, time-saving - and potentially life-saving - EF skill to work on. So, it’s good you’re here.
So, how can we set ourselves up for success?
There are a bunch of things we can do to increase our attention and reduce the chance of all that bad stuff I probably just depressed you with from happening. There’s hope, folks, there’s hope. And a lot of the things we can do are pretty simple. Of course, you actually have to do them, which is the hard part but let’s all give it our best shot.
First one is a magic trick. At least, for me, it seems to be a magic trick. It’s to slow down. Just slow down. It’s that simple. And yet, sooooooo hard to remember to do in the moment. But, really, slowing down can make a world of difference for your attention ability. When we rush, we’re more likely to miss things. Just this morning, my son was leaving for school and had to be there earlier than normal and had to bring some extra stuff with him. He rushed out the door and 30 minutes later, we got a call from him that he forgot the extra stuff. If he had slowed down, he would have noticed the bag we had oh so thoughtfully left right by the door. And earlier this week, I rushed to send an email to a large mailing list and then my colleague pointed out that I had forgotten to include the link I referenced in the email. In the moment, it feels like slowing down will waste time, but you can see in these two examples, we ended up having to use more time later to fix the consequences of rushing. It can help to repeat a mantra of “slow down” or “take your time”. Slowing down does not come naturally to many people and can take some time to build it into your life. But I think it’s a goal worth working towards because it helps us be more proactive and less reactive.
This reminds me of that quote by Viktor Frankl: “Between the stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space lies our freedom and power to choose our responses. In our response lies our growth and our freedom”
Slowing down allows us to expand that space and take advantage of the many benefits of this kind of thinking.
Okay, this naturally leads me to the next tip for improving our attention - mindfulness and meditation practice. I’ve talked about this before on Focus Forward and you’ve likely heard about it before. Studies have shown that meditation and mindfulness do actually strengthen our ability to pay attention, focus on what we’re doing, and, as you might expect, remember things. You can find links in the show notes if you’d like to learn more. When we meditate regularly, we strengthen the areas of our brain that support attention and focus. The prefrontal cortex actually changes structurally! And, meditation can lower your stress levels, which as you know, will make it easier to access your executive functions. As we learned from Rachel Hulstein-Lowe in episode 12 about maintaining progress during times of transition, mindfulness doesn’t have to be anything fancy. Just taking the time to pay attention to the things we do regularly, to slow down and notice what we’re doing and the sensations we’re feeling. But, if you’re interested in a more comprehensive meditation practice, there are so many amazing resources out there in the form of apps, websites, and books. You could check out your local library, gym, and yoga studio to see if they offer meditation classes. If you are skeptical, rely on the science to convince yourself to try it. Your attention will thank you!
Okay, next up is something we always hear and probably just go “yeah, yeah, yeah” about. Sleep. Prioritizing it is critical for a bajillion reasons and attention is one of the most important ones. I’m going to be interviewing sleep and ADHD specialist, Marlee Boyle and our conversation will drop sometime in April. We met the other day and I asked her for her top five tips for maximizing our sleep quality.
1) Keep a regular wake up time. Sleep regularity improves sleep quality and helps us fall asleep at a regular time. Even if you have a poor night's sleep, still wake up at the same time to prevent throwing off your sleep schedule for multiple nights
2) Try not to stay in bed while you're awake. If you're awake for more than 20 minutes in your bed, try getting out of bed for 20 minutes and do something boring in low lighting until you feel sleepy and then return to bed.
3) Get outside in the morning and take breaks outside as much as you can when you're not sleeping well. Sunlight is a strong regulator of sleep so by getting daylight exposure (even on overcast days) will improve your circadian rhythm and help you sleep. And, I just want to add to Marlee’s tip here that if you work at night and sleep during the day, installing blackout curtains, using a white or brown noise machine to minimize sounds that might wake you, and using a sunrise lamp for waking might help improve your sleep.
4) Don't stress about not sleeping. If you're having difficulty sleeping, try not to let yourself worry about it because that will keep you awake longer.
5) Limit caffeine to just the morning time and use it strategically, rather than habitually.
Okay, that’s enough for sleep. Try to get more, okay? and come back in April to learn even more from Marlee.
Next up are two quick tips I like to teach my clients. Breaking large tasks down into smaller, more manageable steps and paying attention to diminishing returns. I’ve covered both of these in other episodes so I won’t get into them too deeply, but just a reminder that these two strategies can have a huge impact on your ability to pay attention. Okay, so first let’s quickly look at breaking things down. When the steps of a project are smaller and clearly defined, it’s easier to pay attention to the task. We are less distracted by worries about how long it’ll take or how hard it’ll be, the requirements of the task are clear to us, and we know there will be a stopping point relatively soon. Slowing down before you start a large task and breaking it down into these smaller steps will give you so much relief down the road. My second tip is to pay attention to diminishing returns - is your effort giving you an equal amount of productivity in return? Instead of setting a timer when you’re going to do work, try paying attention to how you’re engaging with the work. Are you finding it easy to focus? Keep going! Is your mind wandering and you can’t focus? Maybe it’s time to do something else or employ some other kind of strategy to support your focus. I recognize that many listeners may rely on urgency to get things done, so this strategy may not work for you. If that’s you, you might benefit from the procrastination episode I did - it’s episode 11 - awww, back when we were just a baby podcast.
I had a college student client who did poorly on a test in an astronomy class. He got half the questions wrong even though he paid attention in class and studied well. When we took a look at what he did during class, he mentioned that he was listening to the instructor but he wasn’t taking notes and was only relying on her handouts, slides, and the text for studying materials. He decided he’d try taking notes for the second half of the semester. He got only one question wrong on the final and reported that he truly understood and remembered the material in a way he had never before. Not only did he have more resources to use when he studied for the final, he was fully engaged in the class and because of that, found it more interesting and easier to pay attention. When we engage ourselves in what we’re doing, we’re less likely to be bored and distracted and we’re more likely to remember what we did. This same strategy can be used in a variety of situations - taking notes in a work meeting is likely to help you remember what the heck your boss said, asking questions during a boring conversation with your grandmother might make it more interesting, and taking notes in a class you find boring might trick your brain into actually learning something. Granted, I know this can be a Herculean task when it’s a topic you’re completely not interested in, but I do think it’s worth a try. And you never know, you might find out that astronomy is your jam! Like, did you know that a majority of stars we see are actually binary stars? It’s not one star, but two stars orbiting around a common center of mass. Amazing!
Ack, okay back to the topic at hand, Hannah - pay attention! Now, let's explore another tool for focus, and this one might not be for everyone: listening to music. Surprisingly, for some, it can enhance attention during focused work, as long as it's the right kind of music. Studies support this, even though it might spark disagreement among parents.
Many find lo-fi music ideal for studying. I usually listen to mellow tunes in a foreign language to avoid getting distracted by the lyrics. If music doesn’t work for you, be honest with yourself. It can be tempting to listen anyway, even if you know it’s detrimental to your ability to focus. Instead, consider brown or white noise to minimize distracting background sounds. Finding what works best for you is key to making potentially mundane tasks more manageable.
You might be wondering why I haven't delved into how phones can wreck our attention.I kinda feel like I don’t have to. We all know they're distracting, and it's a tough battle to win. Pretty much everything on that phone is designed to leave you wanting more. Instead, let's explore how we can use our phones to help us with attention. Planning apps, to-do lists, and reminders help us focus and break down tasks. Apps like Focus Dog and Forest motivate us to stay off our phones. Meditation apps like Headspace and Smiling Mind teach us to meditate. Note-taking, Pomodoro timing apps, and phone features like digital well-being settings enhance productivity and reduce distraction. Set alarms and timers for focused work without constantly checking the clock. Countdown timers can challenge you to finish tasks within a set timeframe. Embrace your phone as a tool for focus rather than a distraction.
I just want to say one more thing about phones and attention. Please, please get off your phone while you’re driving. I totally get how easy it is to do. I promise you I’m not trying to preach or act like I’m innocent - I have totally done it myself, but truly - the people in your life need you to stay alive. Other people driving or walking on the roads need to stay alive for their people. So keep your attention on your driving and not your phone. Distracted driving can be more devastating than you could ever imagine.
Okay, so let’s move on to debunking that multitasking myth. I’m the bearer of bad news for those of you who self-identify as multitaskers. You’re actually switch-taskers. We know you can’t actually do two things at once and quickly switching back and forth between things may SEEM like multitasking but it’s actually still switch tasking. Although, I have to say that when my kids were little, I think I might have actually been able to multitask - somehow I could open a yogurt smoothie bottle for my daughter and answer the never-ending “why” questions she was asking me while cooking dinner and cleaning off the counter and adding new socks for her little brother to the mental list of things I had to get at the store and also wondering when I had last washed my hair. Can anyone relate? Okay, so other than parents of young children, no one is truly multitasking. Every time we break from a task to switch to a new one, we lose focus, which, as we know, slows us down or causes us to miss stuff or make mistakes. Here’s a little test you can try to see this in action. I learned this from Dan Crenshaw, whose YouTube video is linked in the show notes. Okay, so You’re going to pause me and do two things: one, get a pen and paper and two, open the stopwatch on your phone. Then, come back and I’ll tell you what to do next. See, I’m breaking down the task into smaller steps! Practicing what I preach, baby. Okay, hit pause now and come back when you’re ready.
Yay! You’re back! Okay, hopefully you’ve got your pen, paper and timer ready. Alright, you’re going to pause me again and write the alphabet down on your paper. Then, below that, write the numbers 1 through 26 under each corresponding letter. So, when you’re done, you’ll have two horizontal lines - one with the alphabet and one with numbers 1 - 26. Be sure to time yourself doing it, okay? Alright, go do it, I’ll wait again.
Okay, yay, you came back again! Okay, now you’re going to do the same thing again but this time you’re going to write A and then 1, B and then 2, C and then 3, D and then 4 and so on. So the result will look the same - a line of the alphabet with a line of numbers under it, but you’ll be switching back and forth between the letters and corresponding numbers. Got it? Okay, do it now and don’t forget to time yourself again cuz otherwise this is just a big waste of time.
Welcome back! So unless you’re magical or a parent of small children, your second time should be longer than the first time. You may have even made or almost made some errors while you were doing it.
My point is, if you can, try to work on one, just one, thing at a time. You’ll hopefully find it easier to focus, get more done, feel less tired when you’re done working, and make less errors. Granted, if you’ve been really embracing the multitasking life, you’ll likely find it challenging to drop this habit. But, give it a shot! You may find you need to use strategies to support this - maybe use a timer to keep you on task, use one of those focusing apps for your phone, or if you meet virtually, try keeping your camera on so you can’t sneak off and send an email during a meeting. It can also be motivating to keep track of how you feel when you don’t multitask - are you noticing any improvements or benefits? Check out the show notes for more ideas on beating multitasking!
Okay, so hopefully you’re still with me and I haven’t lost your attention yet! And yay for you because you’ve made it to the end of this episode! I hope it was not too boring and you were able to learn something new. There are a ton more things about attention I could have written about but frankly, I was getting a little bored of this topic myself and was losing my own attention, so that’s our show for today! Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen! Please share this episode with anyone who might find it useful which is probably everybody. We’re so grateful to everyone who has shared Focus Forward! Word of mouth keeps us alive. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com slash podcast. We’ve got some super special stuff coming up for our newsletter subscribers, so get your name on that list so you can find out what we’re up to. Our patient and kind editor and producer is Sean Potts and our brilliant content marketer is Justice Abbott. Thanks for listening and I wish you all a healthy and happy new year. Oh, and it’s guy wire, in case you were wondering. A guy is a rope, cable or cord used to steady, guide or secure. And a muckraker describes a journalist who worked to search for and expose real or alleged corruption, scandal, or the like, especially in politics. Roosevelt used the term as an insult to these writers in a speech in 1906. Hahaha, aren’t you glad you paid attention until the end of this episode??
Well, we are almost at the end of the year. Happy New Year! Oh, you guys Thank you all so much for listening along in 2023. I was feeling a little emotional writing this intro. I’m so excited that we made it through another year. These podcast episodes are a lot of work and following through on stuff takes a lot of effort for me so I’m just really proud of myself for keeping up with it! And I have to say that what makes it easier for me is how much logistical, technical, and creative support my teammates Sean and Justice provide me and the continuous emotional support I get from them and other colleagues of mine at Beyond BookSmart - continually putting yourself out there as a podcast host is challenging so the emotional safety net they provide is well, I couldn’t do it without it. We are looking forward to next year and are excited about our upcoming episodes. If you have any topics you’d like me to explore, let me know! You can email me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. And if you’ve got some free time, could you quickly rate our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? Hopefully 5 stars and if not, please let me know what we can improve!
Today’s episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Marissa Edwards, Ariela Paulsen, and Karl Apelgren. These fantastic humans are all executive function coaches for Beyond BookSmart and If you’ve attended any of our free community education webinars, you may recognize their voices. I was so thrilled they agreed to join me for a Coach Q & A episode where we answer questions that were asked by people who registered for our webinars. Today we tackle managing negative thoughts, the impact of complex medical conditions on our executive functioning, the power of connection and having a strong support network, test anxiety, finding motivation when you’re not interested in something, especially classes, and how to succeed even if you have a teacher who is not supportive of your needs. I enjoyed talking with them so much that I really want to do this again. If you like this format, please let me know!
As always, here are the shownotes from today's episode:
Top 10 Ways for Overcoming Test Anxiety
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/top-10-ways-for-overcoming-test-anxiety
How to Help Students with Anxiety: Top 8 Tips for Parents and Teachers
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/treating-student-anxiety-7-expert-tips-for-parents
When Students with Health Conditions Transition to College
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/when-students-with-health-conditions-transition-to-college
Complex Child - A Resource for Parents of Children Who Are Medically Complex or Have Disabilities
https://complexchild.org/
Organization tips for caregivers of a child with complex medical needs
https://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/article?contentid=1148&language=english
Executive Functions, Self-Regulation, and Chronic Pain: A Review
https://academic.oup.com/abm/article/37/2/173/4565851
How to Practice Self-Compassion: 8 Techniques and Tips
https://positivepsychology.com/how-to-practice-self-compassion/
Text a Friend… Right Now! - Happiness Lab Podcast
https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/text-a-friend-right-now
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
A few months ago, I was in Ithaca for a family event and met Doug Kim, who shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager in their inclusive design team. Once he told me that his team develops technology in a way that supports neurodiversity and mental health, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward.
For anyone who doesn’t know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I am sharing I learned from their Inclusive Design Toolkit, (which you’ll hear more about later!) Inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation, which I just said, is the current, widely accepted definition, which was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products but can, and should be used when designing anything that many people will use. It’s more than just making a product accessible, it’s about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will use it. Another thing I learned from the toolkit that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that “An important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute, while inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive design should make a product more accessible, it’s not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards but truly usable and open to all.”
Something else you’ll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning and adaptation based on user feedback. It’s a dynamic process aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. This aspect of inclusive design really resonated with me as an Executive Function coach and I hope it resonates with you, too!
Microsoft's Resources
Microsoft Inclusive Design
Original Toolkit
Toolkit for Cognition
Inclusive AI
Further Reading:
Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat Holmes
Inclusive Design Toolkit and resources from University of Cambridge, UK
Inclusively - Support for employers and employees
History of Inclusive Design - Institute for Human Centered Design
Inclusive Design LinkedIn Learning Course with Christina Mallon
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Oh my goodness, it has been a month since we last dropped an episode. With Thanksgiving and the ADHD conference and all the other stuff that just goes on at work. We decided to skip one this past month. And before I get to this episode's topic, I wanted to share a little mini report on our experience attending the ADHD conference, which was held in Baltimore from November 29 to December 2, and I'm recording this a few days after returning home and I am still filled with excitement. It was so great. Sean Potts and Justice Abbott from our marketing team and Wendy Craven, who is one of our outreach specialists joined me at the conference. And it was truly an incredible experience for us all. We met some brilliant and interesting people who stopped by our booth in the exhibit hall and shared their stories with us. And we worked really hard to make our booth a fun place to stop by people lined up to spin our colorful prize wheel and learn about ADHD symptoms and some tools that you can use to manage the challenges that come along with those symptoms. And our ADHD Beyond BookSmart squishy brains in our teal blue company color were a major hit. And our you're not lazy bracelets and stickers resonated with many people. We also had a secret notes project where people could anonymously share their thoughts about their ADHD, and a community art wall that everyone could contribute to. We are all so grateful we were able to attend. And next year's conference is in Anaheim in southern Southern Cal in sunny Southern California. And it is absolutely an event worth attending. So start saving those pennies.
Okay, so let's get into today's episode. Back in June, I was in Ithaca for a family event. And I met Doug Kim, who is a friend of my husband's cousin, Doug shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager. And part of his job includes collaborating with the inclusive design team at Microsoft, and working on developing a guide for Inclusive Design for neurodiversity. And as soon as I heard those words come out of his mouth, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. And of course, because he's wonderful, he wholeheartedly said yes, and then came through with an even better offer, and brought two of his colleagues who are the leaders of inclusive design at Microsoft, Christina Mallon and Margaret Price. And for anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I'm sharing I learned from their inclusive design Toolkit, which you're going to hear more about later. And inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation that I just said is the current widely accepted definition. And it was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products, but can and should be used when designing anything that will be used by many people. It's more than just making a product accessible. It's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will actually use it. An additional thing that I learned from the toolkit, and that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that an important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute. Well, inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive designs should make a product more accessible. It's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards, but truly usable, and open to all. And something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning, and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process, and it's aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. And this aspect of inclusive design really resonates with me as an executive function coach. As coaches we also collaborate with our clients to carefully and thoughtfully over time. Figure out the best way of using a tool to create a larger system that works to support the EF challenges the client experiences Okay, enough of me talking about this, let's get on to the show.
Oh, and by the way, you get to hear Exhausted Hannah today, I tried to record Focus Forward episodes in the mornings when my attention and my brain are at their best. But due to some scheduling limitations, a couple of my guests are on the West Coast. I recorded this conversation after a long day of work. And apparently speaking coherently, in complete sentences was not my strong point at that time that day, so please have patience with me. As you wait for me to get my thoughts out of my head. Oh, boy. Okay, here we go.
Hannah Choi 05:41
All right. Well, hello, Microsoft people. Thank you so much for joining me on Focus Forward. Would you go around the room and introduce yourselves? Doug, do you want to start since you're the one that kind of connected us all?
Doug Kim 06:01
Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Doug Kim, and I'm a design manager at Microsoft. Part of my charter is to help support inclusive design. And a strong collaborator with Margaret. And Christina, were also on the podcast today. And we've been talking and working quite a bit over the, over the past couple of years on developing our developing our inclusive design toolkit, and especially developing better practices for designing for neurodiversity.
Hannah Choi 06:34
And Christina,
Christina Mallon 06:37
so I am Christina Mallon, I lead inclusive design at Microsoft, I joined about two years ago. I have dual paralysis and ADHD. So really excited to bring my lived experience into the conversation today.
Hannah Choi 06:53
Yeah, thank you. And Margaret. And last but not least,
Margaret Price 06:57
Hi, my name is Margaret. I joined Microsoft in 2014, as one of the founders of the inclusive design practice. I'm a strategist, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum. And so this is a topic that is near and dear to me.
Hannah Choi 07:13
So can you just tell me the story about how you, you know, got to where you are today, and, and you know, how this inclusive design became what it is, and just kind of how you got here.
Margaret Price 07:28
Back in 2014, the number of product groups at Microsoft were asking some pretty big, bold questions like, What is the future of interaction design? And what's missing from various design thinking methods today? And how can we think about embracing the full range of human diversity as we think about product making, from how we frame problems to how we solve them. And so a small team of people got together and created this practice called inclusive design at Microsoft, which is grounded in three principles of recognizing where there's exclusion today. Learning from diversity, and scaling, for figuring out how you can think about disability through the lens of permanent temporary and situational abilities. And recognizing that there's so much opportunity to learn from somebody who may be experiencing a permanent disability or anyone who's experienced a large range of exclusion. You might think about exclusion through the lens of disability, but also through the lens of socioeconomic status, gender identity and a number of other dimensions. And how do you bring people into the process who've been excluded. And what that means in product making is, of course, having diverse teams of people and championing that, but also thinking about how you recruit folks to come into the process as CO designers to actually bring equity into the process because, of course, what we make as a byproduct of how we make and so we started as a very small and scrappy team of people and ended up building education and capability for all of Microsoft and scaling that we wanted free, accessible resources for the world. So we actually ended up creating curricula that's now in over 60 universities around the world. And a number of companies have been inspired by the work that we've done to create their own inclusive design departments. And we've worked hard to, you know, create a number of experts there are incredible brilliant people all around Microsoft, who are experts in the space now who apply the inclusive design method into their own product groups. And so it's been, it's been a journey of trial and error and learning and testing from a number of diverse communities in Microsoft and outside of Microsoft. And it's certainly a subject that is near and dear to my heart and Doug's and Christina's.
Hannah Choi 10:17
That's great. Yeah, I love I love how that conversations are being had with people who, who truly know, the experience from because it's a lived experience, there's not, you know, there's not really sort of assumptions being made. Can you tell me a little bit about how you work with your co-creators and how you make that whole process? happen? And it sounds like it's pretty fantastic and successful.
Christina Mallon 10:52
Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to cover that. And Doug, let me know if you want to add on. So we believe and as Margaret just mentioned, it is integral that there is equity within product making. So our goal that Microsoft is to ensure that we are creating with people from marginalized communities, at the beginning of ideation, all the way to releasing for, you know, general release, and how we work with them is through either ERGs within our company, that has individuals from marginalized communities as a part of that erg and an erg as an employee resource group, or we work with teams or individuals with different lived experiences from being a part of a marginalized community outside and we pay them to ensure that they can provide feedback at multiple times within the product development process. And feel free to really join in as I know, we've been working hand in hand on this specifically in Azure.
Doug Kim 12:04
Yeah, you know, we're always looking for ways that we can collaborate with people who have experience and always always looking for ways to improve that and always ways to like, help, you know, the people on the inside, who are creating these products really, really, like, learn to empathize with what people are experiencing with their products, which is not easy. And it's, it's, it's not an easy process. And like, there were a lot of mistakes, I think, there were made, like, in the early days, people were just sort of building awareness about disability and accessibility, you know, people would try to just like, whatever, try to use a screen reader or something and say, oh, okay, I got it, right? Well, you know, you don't, right, because if you have the luxury of turning off the screen reader after 15 minutes, then you have no idea what it's like to not be able to do that. And so this is a lesson that we try to like, you know, drill into all the folks that we work with, in terms of like bringing them along on this process. You know, there's this, this is kind of like widely adopted phrase principle, you know, nothing for us without us. And so we really try to stick to that principle, like, involve people very deeply in the design process, who represent the audiences we're trying to expand our capabilities to include, and Sen. And we just really feel like you cannot practice inclusive design. Without that step. You know, you can't make assumptions because, you know, I guarantee if you're making assumptions without that input, they're going to be wrong. Yeah.
Christina Mallon 13:40
Yeah. And then Microsoft, we only consider products that are inclusive are ones that are co designed with communities. Because, you know, we believe that it is key to product success,
Hannah Choi 13:54
Right. So is, which would you say that, that like, how, how much does the idea of inclusive design come up in across to Microsoft as a whole? Like, is it it, would you say it's a conversation and and a viewpoint that the entire company has or is it is it more specific to certain products?
Christina Mallon 14:26
Yeah, I mean, our mission is to create you know, tools, so that every single customer and enterprise customer and person on this earth can use it to reach their dreams and the company is bought into inclusive design. There are, you know, certain parts of the company where I feel like it was a design is used more. I definitely you know, if you have champions like Margaret, and Doug and they are specific In organizations, we see a lot of inclusive design. There are others where there isn't a strong champ of inclusive design, that less inclusive design happens.
Hannah Choi 15:12
And I suppose that's found, I mean, it's huge company.
Christina Mallon 15:14
So over 200,000 people, yeah.
Doug Kim 15:19
You know, it doesn't matter you can, you can be in a company of 200,000, or a company have like three things, you're trying to change behavior, it's always interesting what you have to, like, think about, right and plan for and strategize. So I think our situation is different. Obviously, we're at one of the biggest companies in the world. But like, you could be at a company of six and face like a similar set of challenges, and convincing people to work this way, developing expertise, you know, that's what the toolkit is about, just because we want to be able to like, like, empower the whole ecosystem, and give folks like yourself, like a set of tools that kind of like, normalizes the idea of inclusivity, it doesn't make it like an oddball thing that you only do, or think about, you know, once in a while, when you have the times like
Hannah Choi 16:12
that one person or something.
Christina Mallon 16:14
First original toolkit, over 2 million people have downloaded and used, we just launched the inclusive design for cognition, which we like to call Inclusive Design for Brain Stuff. And that launched it and we've seen a massive amount of users using it. But really, the Inclusive Design original toolkit is what led the way.
Hannah Choi 16:38
Yeah, I really love that. Something that I am, one of the goals of this podcast is to increase conversations about, you know, like, neurodivergent brains and how, and how, like, Let's break the stigma. And so I really love that you guys addressed that. saw that as a as a separate, not a separate, I don't want to say separate but like sight as its as its own area that needed attention. And that, and that needed that recognition and guidance for people who might not know what, you know, what people are experiencing. So I really love that that is that that is out? Are you seeing more and more people?
Christina Mallon 17:28
Now we're definitely a huge demand, Margaret, and Doug, get some original work around cognition. And as I took in the new role about, you know, two years ago, and change, we said, Okay, this work is so amazing. How do we get this in a more formalized toolkit? Because there is such a demand, I'm constantly getting LinkedIn messages, emails and say, Hey, how are you designing for people who have trouble focusing or making decisions or communicating? And that's why I reached out to both Doug and Margaret, when I joined to say, hey, can we build upon this work, and they really were, let's do it and signed up. And I really appreciate the partnership, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of usage of the toolkit, and also seeing it reflected and used by product makers at Microsoft and externally.
Hannah Choi 18:25
And I really love how the way that you created, it makes it I felt like, as I read it as a I don't, you know, I don't create products, but I do create, I do help my clients create, you know, systems that work well for them. And I really loved how it, I felt like it really encourages the reader from whatever viewpoint they're coming from, to consider what they need, and, and to consider how to ask for what they need. And here are some possible ideas and it just the way that you presented it is just really accessible. And it's kind of fun. And, you know, like the graphics are really fun. And I know that's just kind of like little stuff, but as a consumer, it made a difference for me when I was engaging with it. So anyone listening who hasn't checked out the Inclusive Design toolkits from Microsoft, I really highly recommend checking them out a lot of really good stuff in there
Doug Kim 19:35
Inclusive dot Microsoft dot design, that's the website that they're on. Thank you, we promote and that's where like the original toolkit is there's a bunch of videos and guidance PDFs of what the new stuff on there and you know examples of how you know we've we've built these into products is these concepts.
Hannah Choi 19:58
So when you were creating them, how do you do come up with and kind of incorporate the five types of, of cognitive demands? Which for me are executive function skills, learning focus, decision making recall and communication. So I was just wondering like, how did you decide on those? Well,
Doug Kim 20:23
were you talking to Margaret? Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. No, you start.
Margaret Price 20:29
So it started with a pretty comprehensive, lit review. So looking at a lot of existing information from different fields of study, from psychology to cognitive science, to think about help us think about how do we frame this space? This is a really complex space. So how should we think about it? So we started with a lit review, then conducted hundreds of interviews with folks all around the world over a span of maybe two and a half years and 2015 2016. A lot of folks in academia to really deeply understand how can we think about perception, I can think about sensing and thinking, what are all of the different ways we could frame this? What are all the possibilities, and then we apply the inclusive design method to it, we brought in a lot of CO creators, we mapped a number of ways we could think about it, we started mapping the various dimensions. And actually, there's many, many, many more than our initial few. We prioritize these few based on the business opportunity for Microsoft, the opportunity for the world to have stronger impact on the need that we saw from people. And so all of this is grounded in evidence based research. And was prioritized based on where we saw the largest need in our communities.
Doug Kim 21:59
Yeah, and so like, I work on Azure, which is our, you know, enterprise oriented cloud services offering. And we did a lot of studies for how Azure works, or does not work for neurodivergent users. And so a lot of the things that we pulled out of those studies kind of found its way into the guidance that there's there in the toolkit, like decision making in Azure is, is kind of a huge deal like and you have to retain a lot of information to be able to effectively make effective decisions you have like dozens or hundreds of options to choose from to get a particular result that you're looking for. And so we wanted to kind of like abstract out some of these to the like, the cognitive types of functions that are at play here, and how we do or do not support them. So I think a lot of the some of the impetus to choose these came from, you know, the research that Margaret was referencing, but also kind of the experience of our users who are saying, like, this is where if I make the wrong move, I could be in big trouble. You know, you could write $1,000, as opposed to nothing. Yeah. So you hear that? And you go, Oh, okay, I get it. That's a tough call. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 23:27
Yeah. And if you can't confidently make those decisions, then you're going to be more stressed, which is going to impact your ability to use your executive function skills. Well, which is going to set you up for making more mistakes. So yeah, and that just shows you how important it is to consider these things for people who do not have a, you know, you know, that like don't have ADHD or don't, you know, have mental health struggles or whatever, you know, is impacting someone's someone at work, it's so important to consider that. And I love how you think about that scalability. I have how, you know, like, this thing, yes, it addresses a need here that everybody can actually use it and benefit from it.
Doug Kim 24:19
So I'm curious like for you, okay, so you're an executive functioning coach, very fascinating to learn how this kind of affects your work. Like one of the issues that came up for us was just consequences. Right? Am I aware when I'm going through a given experience, what the consequences of my decisions are? And if not, how do I move forward? So is that something that comes up for you like what, what are your clients telling you about consequences and the stuff that they need to be able to, like understand and move forward make decisions? You know, when the consequences are ambiguous?
Hannah Choi 24:55
Yeah, it's huge. And so much so much that comes out is confidence, the confidence to make any decision that they're making? And many of the people that I've worked with, have have spent their life feeling like they've been doing it wrong all along. And, and so to come to a space where question like, you know, like, I'm asking them questions like, what does work for you? What doesn't work for you? What have been the consequences of your actions in the past? And, you know, and and what do you kind of envision for yourself in the future? It's? Yeah, not really sure where I'm going with this. You're really, really, really, so much of what I do just real, I can really relate to the work that you guys have done in addressing. Yeah, the potential consequences that other people have to have in their life and the business decisions that they're making or whatever.
Doug Kim 25:58
Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to sort of like, basically understand, like, what the, one of the one of the key concepts in the toolkit is trying to try to understand what the cognitive load is, like, how much demand are you putting on the on the user? And why and where does it come into your experience? Right? And so these are, the aspects of the dimension is how much you're asking them to remember how much you are you expecting them to project in terms of the the consequences of their decisions, I want you you're expecting them to be able to act on their own versus in collaboration with their teammates, or co workers. And I think these are normally things that we don't really discuss in depth, we're just sort of like build products, assuming that a person is acting alone, acting independently, and has all the tools that they need to be able to say, make an informed decision. And so, I mean, that's not totally true. I'm being a little bit. I'm exaggerating a little bit, just to make the point. But I think that one of the points of the toolkit is to say, don't make assumptions here, options about what your customer does or doesn't know or what they're expecting, as they're moving through an experience. Build it in a way so you understand what you're asking of your customers, you and understand the level of demand that you're placing on them to do anything, because every experience does that. Right. There's something that it's going to ask of you, right to say, like, if you jump into a car, like there's a presumption that you understand how to operate it, because you've passed the test, at some point, we're seeing all that stuff, the minute you turn on the ignition, right, there's an assumption that you know that when you press the brake, that the car is going to stop. So every, every experience does that to a certain extent. But not all product traders measure that, and weigh that and say, what actually, where are we assuming before somebody even, you know, starts the car?
Margaret Price 28:10
Well, I love what you're saying. And to build on it, I think it's a really great set of points that leads to the recognition. You know, there's a lot I mentioned, at the beginning of the call, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum, and there's a lot of self-blame that can happen. What's wrong with me? Why can I use those sorts of thoughts? And I think that's where, you know, the worlds colliding and unlikely between what we do and a lot of what you do, which is, you know, as Doug mentioned, asking, what are the cognitive demands? And where are the mismatches between what's needed from the person and what the product is providing? And recognizing that it's not your fault. It's this product’s fault. Yeah, this is not built in a way that's going to serve you. Well. And this is not about you. This is about the product not being built. Good enough.
Hannah Choi 29:03
Yes. Yes. And that yeah, that's, that's many conversations that I have with my clients is being like, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how your brain works. And this and unfortunately, it is not the system, the world that we are in is not, you know, necessarily designed for that.
Doug Kim 29:25
Well, I think that's especially true with like, well, I don't know, I don't want to get into kind of a waiting thing. But like, you see, that was neurodivergent. Conditions like so commonly, like I think societally, like in this is true, I think, pretty much across the globe, we're like conditioned to say, put the onus on the person with that condition to adapt. Yep. It's an experience that wasn't built for them. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the key premises of the toolkit and this extension of the toolkit. deals with cognition, which is that no, like, that's, it's not you, it's us. It's not, it's not you, like, if it doesn't work for you, then that's a problem with a product, right? It's a problem with the environment or the world that were created, never expecting you to participate in. Like, if it doesn't work for you, then we need to adapt it, we need to come up with systems that normalize you to an extent that allows you to function as effectively or better than anybody else who's using a product. And, like, puts the onus on us as periodic creators, to, to adapt to you as opposed to the other way around. And the fact that our systems up until, you know, very recently, and like without this sort of understanding of how things work could work potentially a lot better for our interviewers. And folks. It's, it's, you know, it just hasn't been built that way. And, you know, I think our mission, like the three of us together, and now you and everybody else who's like involved in this inclusive design process, is is to upend that expectation, and say, it's the onus on people who are creating products. You know, I mean, you create a product, this podcast is a product, right. And it could be applied to anything that anybody, you know, makes,
Christina Mallon 31:25
I think, people are starting to see this, you see the World Health Organization, how they define disability as a mismatch between a person and a design. And I think that is really key because, again, as a disabled person, I'm told, okay, you need to figure out how to do this or fix this solution. Yeah, and it's really taxing. And this is something that's common in marginalized communities.
Hannah Choi 31:54
Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was just doing some research on, on advocating for yourself at work. And, and many of the articles that I read, said, unfortunately, it is on you, it will, in most situations, it will be on you to educate your employer, on what how to, you know, meet your needs. And so, it's, and that's, that's with any marginalized community, marginalized community, right. It's it, unfortunately, at this point, it is, it is on that group to educate everyone else. This inclusive design, the fact that Microsoft is embracing this so much shows us that that, like, that's a good role model. Do you think that within I mean, I guess you guys can only speak for the departments with it to work. But would you say that within it, or in your experience? Like, Christina, if you need something? Do you feel like you're, it is easy for you to advocate for yourself? Do you feel like that inclusive design concept spreads to the advocacy part? And for Costco? Yes,
Christina Mallon 33:14
I'm definitely empowered to implement inclusive design, and that the entire company has a pretty good understanding the importance of it. But the current state of the economy, with our focus on AI, there's definitely more begging that needs to get done for resources around it. And I think, you know, that's why people in positions of power really need to advocate for this. And that's why when I started, Doug, and Margaret, could empathize with me. And were able to provide, you know, their resources to help create the inclusive design for cognition toolkit.
Hannah Choi 33:58
And, and Doug and Margaret would like, where did where did your strength in, in, in your knowledge come from? Was that just from your experiencing your experience of creating this inclusive design? Or is that something that you have naturally already felt before you got into that?
Doug Kim 34:19
Everything I know comes from Margaret.
Hannah Choi 34:24
Margaret, you're amazing.
Margaret Price 34:28
You're all amazing. Yeah,
Christina Mallon 34:30
we're all amazing
Margaret Price 34:32
lots of listening and learning. And I as a generalist strategist, I like to learn there's so many brilliant leaders in this space outside of Microsoft, who pioneered inclusive design long before Microsoft got in the business. And so a lot of listening and learning to brilliant folks. And we can, you know, give you links For show notes too. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 34:58
Thank you, I was just gonna say that
Margaret Price 35:01
A lot of listening, a lot of learning a lot of synthesizing just a ton of information. And wanting to communicate it in ways, as you mentioned earlier that are simple for anybody to understand. And connecting dots that might seem not connectable, I have a background in research as well. And so I love listening and learning and connecting dots that might seem like they can't connect. And I think, you know, to your question earlier about advocating for ourselves in the workplace, I think, for me, a lot of it came from not as much inclusive design as the work on myself. And I think you do a lot of this with folks that you coach, probably, but really becoming, you know, keenly self aware about my needs, and how to communicate them and boundaries and how to communicate them. And recognizing that communicating well. And communicating in a way that's going to serve me is the absolute best thing that I can do, rather than ignoring or suppressing what I need.
Hannah Choi 36:07
Yeah, and so much of advice, like going back to the idea of how you have to, you know, it is on you as a person to advocate for yourself, and you might end up having to educate your employer. But a big part of that self advocacy is, you know, like, knowing yourself, and knowing what your boundaries are and right, like you said, like learning how to, how to ask for that. And yeah, that is, it's a lot of what I do. Yeah. And it's so funny, because I just, just over the past year, went through the whole ADHD diagnosis and answered all these life questions that I've had about myself for a very long time. And, and, you know, working at beyond booksmart, it was, it was like, not a thing, and not a big deal. It was, you know, it wasn't like I had to decide whether I was going to disclose and, and, you know, there were already so many systems built into, you know, built into how we do things at beyond booksmart. Because, because we are in the business of supporting people with executive function challenges. So I feel very lucky that I work at a company where I am just automatically supported, and that there are lots of people within the company who, you know, also, like, have shared needs or similar needs, or even different needs. And so a lot of our training materials are presented in many different formats. And, you know, there's, there's many different ways to interact and many different choices that you can make whatever works the best for you. And I know, that's not how it is that many places. And so I, I really hope that these kinds of conversations continue to happen that companies like Microsoft, and other I mean, you guys almost have like a, an I don't know, if you feel this way, but as a very large company, like you have a really big opportunity to, you know, to be a voice for this. I, you know, I like I kind of feel that way, there's a podcast host of like, well, I don't really have a lot of power, but I have a little bit of power, and I'm going to try to use it. So do you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like that responsibility?
Christina Mallon 38:18
Yeah, I mean, I took my job six months pregnant with my first child, which is kind of crazy. But I knew the power that Microsoft has to empower people like be to be able to achieve their dreams. And I already knew that the foundation has been set by people like Doug and Margaret. So it would come into a very inclusive company.
Doug Kim 38:48
Well, I would say that, you know, something that, like kind of struck me as you were talking when I was was like the, the idea that you have power, and I think everybody has power. And a lot of us have this tendency to like even regardless of what position we're in, to kind of under estimate what that what that power is. And so I think if you're in this, you care about this space, which if you made it this far into this episode, you obviously do. You can exercise your power on one on one, right, you can help shape conversation and you can help normalize things. If you're more of like from representing the ally ship side of things, you can learn more, you can reduce the burden on your colleagues or whoever it is to have to advocate for themselves. You can absorb information like our toolkit, but any of the other like, you know, amazing resources that are that there are out there to help, you know, again, create this expectation. ation of inclusion as a as a regular and standard practice. So there we're constantly stretching ourselves to be more inclusive and to include more audiences that haven't been included to this point. So it could be a one person company, it could be two people working together to see, you know, examine how they operate, could be a soccer club could be whatever a classroom. I don't think that work ever ends. But it's like, I think we found that it's joyful work, you know, it's inspiring work. Learn more about human human capability, and what you can do to enable and empower that. So, you know, it's also fun.
Hannah Choi 40:48
What creative work, problem solving, and something that you said in the beginning, just connected me back to what you were just saying. And you said, I think Margaret, it might have been you, you said, you asked people a lot of questions, the CO creators that you worked with. And then Doug, you said, you made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, I can't remember exactly who said what, but but I think that's part of that power is not being afraid to ask the questions, and not being afraid to make the mistakes. And, and that is so scary for people, especially when you're asking questions about something that you don't really know a lot about.
Doug Kim 41:29
So yeah, you know, sort of, you're bringing into mind this, or like, you know, that era that Margaret was referring to earlier, back 2014, 2015. You know, I just started, like, getting used to interviewing people with disabilities. And I was interviewing this woman who has a low vision person who used like, an extreme amount of magnification, and a third party tool to be able to magnify her, um, screens to something like 400 person, and I was watching her work and just kind of like, making little comments. And at one point, the, the screen magnification tool she was using just crashed and quit. And, you know, I was looking at her and I said, and I just kind of chalk. Well, I said, oh, shoot, like, it's a crash. Let's, let's reboot that out. And she just looks at me, she goes, Why are you laughing? And I said, Oh, well, it's just the like, a little glitchy thing. And she just said, you know, it's not a glitch. When this happens. It is so hard for me to get this back. And my livelihood, because she was an independent business person, right, who worked on her own. She said, You know, my livelihood could be drastically affected. Like every time this happens, and you know, Margaret's done a lot of research, too with customers who have said a lot of the same things around things like, you know, improperly coated, or created notifications and interruptions. There's a lot of science around that, too. But at the time, I was like, oh, boy, I just got a big lesson. Yeah. And understanding, you know, how to empathize with what people are experiencing. Yeah, so I view that as kind of, like, you know, a mistake on my part, in terms of how I reacted to what she was experiencing at the time. But something that has, like, continued to, like, help me understand how to move forward, and how to understand how to work with folks with disabilities, or with anybody really, anybody? Yeah, developing more like tools for empathy and understanding and how to keep you know, going deeper into this work. So those are, those are really helpful. Actually, I still pretty much think that, you know, like, if she remembers that at all, it's quite some time. Now, she probably didn't think much of me. But yeah, she's been enormously helpful. Just that one episode, to you know, whatever progress I've made my journey along this path.
Hannah Choi 44:05
Yeah, and going back to that power, I mean, that shows like the power of, of experiences for people, we, you know, we never know the impact that we might have on somebody. And so you guys probably don't even see the the impact that your work has, has had on, on everybody.
Christina Mallon 44:25
We get some nice notes here and there. But I think having people with disabilities within the company is super important. Because you're able to do these really quick empathy sessions and you can actually see oh man, this really does affect when the small design changes made. When we look at power and power dynamics, most people that are making decisions sit in an area where they have lots of power, they are white, they are male, they're educated. They speak English, upper middle class live in, you know, the states or the UK. And it is so important to have diversity within the company so they can influence these power makers or become one of the power people. And Microsoft does a good job of that, and really looking at hiring and trying to increase the exposure to people with disabilities. But you know, here's the thing, everyone's gonna make a mistake, I make mistakes about disability, and I'm disabled myself. So it's always a learning experience. And if people treat it as a learning experience, and don't get scared to even interact with someone that disability, life will be better. Yes,
Hannah Choi 45:42
I worked for a few years in the, in the students in the, like Disability Resource Center at a community college. And, and I just loved it, that diversity of employees within that, within that office, and then the students that came in, it was, it was I made a ton of mistakes, I made a ton of mistakes. And I learned so much. And it was, it was just such an amazing experience. So grateful for it. Yeah, I we're actually, I'm right in the middle of preparing for a webinar, we do these community education webinars, and we have one coming up a week from today. And it's about, it's about how to manage like perceived failure. And, and we're talking a lot about how, like, exactly that what you said, Doug, like that, that felt like a mistake, but you are still learning from it years later. And how how when you can change your viewpoint from seeing it as a mistake, and something to trip you up and stop you and switch it to see us something as that we can learn from and grow from. And you can separate a little bit separate, like your ego from it and and then become more, you know, just more aware and more understanding.
Doug Kim 47:10
Well, you know, yeah, and I think that, like, if you're coming from a position of ally ship, again, that you should expect to encounter a road where you have setbacks and you take on risks, you know, in, in your journey to like, you know, help serve that community or even understand more about that community, you you're part of the goal, I think of ally ship is to alleviate risk from other people and put it on yourself. And some of that risk is, you know, involved in in making mistakes. I mean, if I look at whatever the embarrassment that I felt in that moment that I was talking about, it's not much compared to what the person that I was trying to understand from past experience every day, every time that you know, magnifier crashes. And so like, if a second if I can take one second to have an embarrassing moment, and help, you know, ultimately create a better system for her, then that's really not much of a risk. But it is, it is, like a lot of people like think about, like a potential misstep like that as a huge risk. In some ways it is. It's embarrassing. It's not fun. But it's what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some like emotional discomfort, you know, or the possibility of emotional discomfort, you know, off somebody else's plate and putting it onto yours. That's a very that's, that's an expected and also a that's an outcome. You know, you should you should expect to have.
Hannah Choi 48:54
My favorite quote, ever is by Susan David, who's a psychologist, and she said, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I just love that so much.
Margaret Price 49:08
Oh, that's beautiful. I love Susan David.
Hannah Choi 49:10
I know I love her. She's so great.
Margaret Price 51:21
Delightful. Well, thank you so much for having us on. Because yeah, speaking of executive executive functioning skills, flexibility is part of that and my, and my rigid schedule, I am gonna have to hop. But really, it was such a delight. Meeting you, Hannah, and speaking with you, and of course, talking with two people that I just adore, Christina and Doug. So thank you for having us on and for discussing this important topic.
Hannah Choi 51:52
And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to listen and learn about inclusive design and for having some patience with me. You can find links to lots of inclusive design resources in the show notes, and please share this episode with your family or your friends who might help it find it useful. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and please subscribe to focus forward on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Our very patient editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our thoughtful and creative content marketer is justice Abbott extra special thanks to Doug who brought Christina and Margaret onto the show with me and a million thank yous to the people at beyond booksmart who helped make our attendance at the ADHD conference possible. Thanks for listening
For many people (especially those with Executive Function challenges), managing money can be really stressful. If you can relate to this challenge and are thinking of sending a kid off to college, then learning how to plan your finances accordingly is something that’s worth being really proactive about. According to the Education Data Initiative, average tuition and fee rates have increased 130% since 1990 - and that’s after adjusting for inflation (yikes!) So, what can we do? Is there a way to approach saving for college that is less stressful and more effective than just wingin’ it or waiting till the last minute?
Luckily, today’s guest is Shannon Vasconcelos, the Director of College Finance for Bright Horizons College Coach, and she joined me to discuss saving for college in a very executive function-friendly manner. In other words, she was the perfect expert I needed for this topic. Listen to learn from this college finance expert how you can approach this new exciting yet expensive chapter well prepared!
Show notes:
Bright Horizon’s College Coach
www.getintocollege.com
Getting In: A College Coach Conversation
https://getintocollege.com/Resources/Getting-In-Podcast
You Need a Budget (Hannah’s favorite budgeting tool)
www.ynab.com
Saving For College
https://www.savingforcollege.com/
Roth IRA and 529 Explained
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/which-is-best-529-college-savings-plan-or-roth-ira
Making College Affordable: 5 Tips for Securing Scholarships
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/making-college-affordable-5-tips-for-securing-scholarships
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So this episode is about saving money for college or whatever post high school plans you or your child might have. And for many people, especially those with EF challenges, managing money can be really stressful. And because college is very expensive, it's something that is good to be really proactive about. Starting to save early is what we would do in a perfect world. Actually, in a perfect world college just wouldn't be so expensive, and we'd all have the means to pay for it without worrying about how we're going to do that. Unfortunately, this is not our reality. Today's guest, Shannon Vasconcelos, who is the Director of College finance for Bright Horizons College Coach told me that going to college is a lot more expensive than it was 30 years ago, I did a little research and according to the Education Data Initiative, since 1990, average tuition and fee rates have increased 130% And that is after adjusting for inflation. That's crazy. So what can we do? Is there a way to approach saving for college that is less stressful and more effective than just winging it or waiting until the last minute. Luckily, Shannon approaches saving for college in a very executive function friendly manner. So, she was just the expert I needed for this topic. We focused on college savings as college does end up being the most expensive option that people choose to do after high school. But even if you or your child have other plans, many of the lessons and tips about saving that she shares are still applicable. I met Shannon through my experience being a guest on Bright Horizons podcast called "Getting In: A College Coach Conversation". Their expert hosts and guests have created an absolute wealth of information about pretty much every aspect of the college admissions process. Although every week they come out with a new episode. So apparently, there's more to learn. I was so thrilled to have Shannon share her knowledge on Focus Forward. So listen to learn more from this college finance expert. Now on to the show. All right. Well, thanks so much for joining me, this is gonna be fun. Talking about money is a little stressful for me, I find I find finances stressful. So I'm actually really looking forward to this. I've got kids that are in sixth and ninth grade. So we are definitely the audience for this episode. Good. Would you introduce yourself for our listeners?
Shannon Vasconcelos 03:02
My name is Shannon Vasconcelos. And I am Director of College Finance for Bright Horizons College Coach. We are a company that helps families prepare for college and all different ways from saving to college through the college application process. And how to get through the those college payments.
Hannah Choi 03:24
Yeah, that's great. And I got to be on your podcast. A few months back, I was talking about college and how to find success in college if you're going to college with some executive function challenges. So that was really fun. I really enjoyed that.
Shannon Vasconcelos 03:39
Yeah, we really loved having you.
Hannah Choi 03:43
I'm so happy you're here today. So one thing that, that we talked about before we met and that I and then I really wanted to bring up again is that though we will be talking a lot today about saving for college. Some kids don't go to college and and that's great for those kids, if that's not their path. And but as parents, we can still, you know, think about their future and maybe there is something else we can be saving for for them. And so I hope that any listeners whose children choose not to go to college can still benefit from some of the some of the content that we talked about today. So I just want to acknowledge that different paths that they follow. And for sure, and
Shannon Vasconcelos 04:31
I would say college tends to be the most expensive path week. And so I think if you're not sure if college is in your child's future, I always feel like it's better to over prepare than under prepare. If it's a possibility. We want to think about saving for college, but that sort of "traditional" - I'll put traditional in air quotes. There always been a lot of different paths, but that the traditional four year path, college path, kind of residential university, it's not for everyone. And there are lots of other kinds of educational options, short term certificate programs and trade schools. And, you know, even starting your own business, maybe maybe your child has that entrepreneurial spirit, they need a little bit of seed money, and you want to prepare for that. So I think there's lots of reasons to be saving for your child's future, college tends to be the most expensive one we think of and one that you want to be prepared for if it's a possibility. But if you save it all, I think there's multiple uses that that that money could potentially be put to in the future.
Hannah Choi 05:49
So like, why why should we see why should we be thinking ahead and preparing other than the obvious that, like you just said, it's very expensive?
06:00
Yeah, I think that really is, is the biggest driving factor that college is such a huge expense and much more expensive than when you are i Hannah, we're going to college or certainly when parents were probably went to college, if the if they went to college college costs have been increasing at quite a rate more than you know, the general inflation rate in the economy over the last, you know, 20 3040 years, actually, since 1990, college costs have doubled. Wow. So it's quite an expense, and one that you want to be prepared for, you know, there are different ways to pay for college. And certainly one that's gotten a lot of attention lately is student loans. Student loans are of course an option to help you pay for college. But of course, when you borrow student loans, they charge you interest you save, you're the one that's occurring, the interest. So, you know, if you're a parent thinking about let the interest work for you, rather than against you, if you do the math on it. saving for college, as opposed to borrowing for college can actually cut your college costs in half. When you think about all of that interest, so it's really expensive, it's getting more expensive, and preparing for it will, will help I think, will help your stress levels. Yeah, you have a chunk of change, set aside for college. And it will actually having that chunk of change set aside will, in the end reduce your college costs as opposed to borrowing. And I should also I think throw out there. Sometimes people are worried about saving for college because they think it will cost them college financial aid and I save for college, they won't give me financial aid. That is just not the case, your savings does feed into the financial aid calculations. But to a very small extent, that's good to know, the way the financial aid formula works is it's mostly driven by the family's income, not their assets, not their savings. And so if we want to just put numbers to it, so folks understand in the financial aid formula, you're the formula expects you to contribute something like 5% of your assets to college each year. Okay? Meaning so if you saved $10,000, for college, that might cost you $500 in financial aid eligibility, though, you're still up by 9500, you could you know, that helps you pay for college, much, much more than the loss of financial aid hurts, I would encourage everybody who has the means and I'm not talking about a huge amount of means, you know, every little bit helps to start saving, it'll just make your life easier in the end.
Hannah Choi 09:08
And I love that you pointed out that it reduces stress because as our listeners know, if they've been listening for a while they've heard me talk about how stress really, really impacts our ability to access our executive function skills, which as we'll explore today, you really do need to access those if you're going to be planning and prioritizing and managing and organizing. Or all of your finances for the future. So 100% Yeah, yeah, great. So what do you think stops people from saving I mean, other than what you just mentioned, do you think that people's biggest reason for not saving Yeah,
Shannon Vasconcelos 09:50
I think so that it's the whole prospect is just intimidating. And yeah, it you know, it's this the stress of it, but like you say that It can just make that executive functioning that's required just really difficult. And I mean, this is part of the stress just that the numbers are so overwhelming and it's intimidating to think they can get into a headspace. Well, it's impossible to save that much. So they just don't try that. That's the worst thing you can do to let yourself get to the space of I'm so overwhelmed. I'm not even going to try.
Hannah Choi 10:34
Yeah, right. So doing a little exploration and learning. As we know, knowledge is power. So as doing maybe listening today to today's episode, and, and taking that first step to figure out how can I do this in the least overwhelming way? And yeah, I am a classic example of that. No, I don't like math. So I have like a visceral reaction to anything that has to do with numbers. Even conceptually, I don't like thinking. So. So this, I'm really looking forward to learning this today. So
Shannon Vasconcelos 11:10
yeah, and I think what I tend to recommend for folks who are just feeling overwhelmed that so much, I'll never be able to do it. I don't know how to approach this. I always recommend breaking the process that this sort of big, overwhelming process of saving for college, break it down into manageable steps.
Hannah Choi 11:32
Yes. Are you looking for a job as an executive function coach?
Shannon Vasconcelos 11:40
I've gotta say, for my kids college, that's that side hustle, maybe?
Hannah Choi 11:47
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's pretty much my go to strategy for myself. And for any of my clients, or anyone who is asking like, this feels really big and scary. What should I do? And you're right, break it down.
Shannon Vasconcelos 12:00
Yeah. And in my mind, how I organize it. In my mind, I think there are forced steps for basic questions to ask yourself, once you've made the decision I'm going to save for college. So that's the first first hurdle to get, I'm going to do it and you do that, then I think there's four questions to ask yourself to, to bring this big goal into fruition and take it step by step. And I think that first,
Hannah Choi 12:33
if you're listening, get a pen and paper and start getting organized.
12:40
One hundred percent! Brilliant tip. Yes. So I think the first question to ask yourself is what kind of account do I want to use to save for college and this is something that I work with families all the time on making this decision, because there's different places you could put your money, the I would say, most popular option for saving for college is using what's called a 529 account. And that's an account that when you save your money over the years in this account, when the time comes to make a withdrawal, you if you withdraw the money for college, so it's sort of like as a 401K is for your retirement, it's for this specific purpose. 529 is for college. And if you're withdrawing the money for college expenses, you don't have to pay any taxes on the earnings of your 529. So it gives you that nice tax bonus, yeah, if you use this money, how it was intended, which was for college, so I would think that's the most popular option, the 529 that people are using to save for college. It does have that restriction, though, that this money is supposed to be used for college to get that tax break. If you use the money for anything other than college, you have to pay taxes on the earnings plus a 10% penalty. No, wow. So you want to be you know, fairly confident you're going to use this money for college, you're not going to have to pull it out for something else. But some people are uncomfortable with that they want more flexibility. So they will just use a regular plain ol' savings account or investment account that they could use for college or for anything else, right. So if you're in that space, where I'm not sure if my kids gonna go to college, I don't like my money being tied up. What if I needed for some emergency, you could just use a regular savings account or regular investment account. You forego the tax break. You know, you'd have to pay taxes on the growth of the account, but you get more flexibility. So that's definitely sort of a decision that people have to weigh what's more important to me this this tax break and saving more money or having more flexibility. There's a nice sort of compromise option that that some folks will choose to use, and it sounds a little weird at first and but it's using a Roth IRA to save for college, a Roth IRA is supposed to be a retirement account. And actually, if you're going to be over 59 and a half, when your kids go to college, Ah, okay, it can be a really great option, because that's their, the way that a Roth IRA works is very actually similar to a 529. Tax wise with a 529, you put the money in, it's after tax money that goes in, but you don't pay any taxes on the growth, if you use the money for college with a Roth IRA, after tax money goes in, you don't pay any money on the growth, if you're over age 59 and a half. Okay?
Shannon Vasconcelos 15:49
If you're an older you had your kids in your 40s, exactly,
15:53
The Roth IRA gets you the same tax benefit as a 529. But without the restriction. And even if you're a younger parents, some younger parents will still use a Roth IRA for college savings, because they have this, I'm getting real kind of into the weeds wonky here with it with this option. But with a Roth IRA, your earnings are sort of tied up into in the account till after you're 59 and a half. But your contributions, the amount that you put in, you can get out at any time for any reason. And you've already paid taxes on that money, there's no tax implication. So some younger parents will use a Roth IRA assuming I will pull the money out the the contributions out the principal out to pay for college, but I'll leave the earnings in the account till after I'm 59 and happier those for my retirement. So it's sort of you're gonna use it as sort of a dual purpose count account because it sort of gets you summit, the tax breaks, but some of the flexibility to so that can that can be a good option for for some people, but but there's a number of options. So thinking about what your priorities are, in turn what's matters to me saving the most money in terms of tax regs, what matters to me having flexibility that will I think drive that first decision of Okay, where am I going to cut this college saving?
Hannah Choi 17:11
Yeah, yeah. That's, that's really great information.
17:16
Yeah. And then I would say the next decision to make is once you know, the kind of account you're going to use, okay, well, who, who's the actual sort of business or plan manager or bank that I'm going to use to hold this and you can open a 529 account with a variety of investment managers, the way it works at the 520 Nights, specifically, is that every state has their own. But you're actually allowed to invest in any states five times. So I could live in California, but invest in the New York State 529. And different plan managers will have different fee structures that look at slightly different investment options, though, they tend to be relatively consistent across the board, you can probably read looking for basic investment options, they'll probably have it in any 520 units, you want to look at the fees, many states offer a state tax incentive to stick with your home state plan. Okay. So that's usually enough incentive if your state has one of those state tax break to stick with your home states plans, and that can make the decision easy if it's going to be a 529. If it's going to be like a regular savings account or a Roth IRA, something like that, that's more flexible than looking at companies that you've worked with, who have you had a good experience with, again, what kind of what kind of interest Did they give you? Or what kind of fees do they charge that can help you make that kind of next level? This is Yeah.
Hannah Choi 18:55
So, is there a place that is there a place that people can go that has all of that information altogether? Or do you just need to go and research each state
19:06
if we're talking about 529, like defined college savings accounts, specifically, my favorite website to research that is a website called Savingforcollege.com. All the detailed information about all the different states' 529. They will tell you if your state has a state tax break, you can do like side by side comparisons. They have a nice list you can find on their website of this dates with the you can sort the list of all the different state 520 names by who charges the lowest fees. I think that's a good starting place. Cool. So yeah, that's that's a really good place to find. Identify who you want is your plan manager. So it's the type of account you want. Who do you want is your plan manager. And then what type of investments do you want to hold in the account. So again, kinda like a 401 K, that a 529 is similar to a 401k, where you've chosen this 529, perhaps, that you want to invest in, and you're given a list of maybe 10, or 20, mutual funds that you can hold the money in within that 529. And some more stocks, and some are more bonds, some 529 types have straight savings account options. But to make this decision, pretty easy for folks who don't really feel comfortable picking investments, they're not sure what they should do just about every 529 out there has what they call an age based fund or target date fund, where you can just choose the mutual fund based baby for me, yes, 100% makes it so much easier, based on your child's age. So it might be like the college 2025 fund the college 2030 fund based on when your kid is going to go to college, and what happens and you just put the money in that fund, that's all you have to do, you don't have to think about anything else. And over the years, as your kids get closer to college age, the makeup of that fund becomes more conservative. So it's sort of banking on the fact that when your kids are quite young, you can be a little bit more risky, be a little bit more aggressive with your investment, as they get closer to college age, you probably want to be a little bit more conservative, be safer, you don't want to, you know, the stock market to take a downturn and all of a sudden you lose all your college savings you want, right? Right, gradually grow more conservative. That's what most kinds of financial experts would would recommend. And these age based funds do it for you. So that's one very easy option for folks who are kind of intimidated by the prospect of choosing particular investments,
Hannah Choi 21:55
right? Yeah, I'm very lucky because my husband is it manages all that stuff for us. And he is not overwhelmed by that kind of thing. So I was just thinking, if you if you have a partner who can take that on and is happy to get involved, then that's great. If you if your partner or you don't have a partner to work with you on it, it's really great to hear that there are options for people like me, who'd be like, I don't know.
22:22
Completely, yeah, it makes things a whole lot easier. And I think, again, 520 nines as like kind of the sort of primary college Pacific savings account. They were sort of design with regular folks in mind, you don't have to be an investment expert, to get a 520 started. And then I would just say like, final question you need to ask. So yeah, I know, I want to save in a 529, let's say, and I live in Massachusetts, and they have a state tax break for choosing our plants. I'm going to go with the Massachusetts State Plan, that's who I'm going to house my money with. I'm not sure what to do with investments. So maybe I'm gonna choose the age based fund within that 529 for my child's age. Okay, I've gotten through the first few questions. Final question, how much do I say, Yes, this can be an intimidating one for folks. And what I tell folks is not to stress out too much about it. If you are maybe more like your husband, you're a real numbers oriented person really wants to kind of dig into the data. There are good college savings calculators online, on that saving for college.com website, they have a nice college savings calculator that can help you with setting some savings goal, okay, I know my child is going to likely go to college in this year. So I have 10 years to save or five years to save whatever it is. And this is the calculator will tell you okay, this is what college costs are anticipated to be the cost of an average college at that time, this is how much you'd have to put away on a monthly basis to reach that goal. So for real data, numbers oriented people, I'd absolutely recommend running one of those college savings calculators. The flipside to that is I find that running those calculators can be scary for folks sometimes, very, very often. So don't be surprised if this happens to you very often it shows you a number you could not conceive in your wildest dreams. Yeah, so what I tell people is that is okay, do not get bogged down by that do not worry about that. There are other ways to help pay for college. There are the student loans. We already talked about their scholarships, there's grants. There are monthly payment plans where you can pay the college bill like spread out on a monthly basis as opposed to like having to come up with the money. There's all these different ways to pay for college. You do not have to save that full amount of college that the calculator might tell you, right? Honestly, almost nobody can do that. So that, that turned you off the prospect of savings. If you want to see the numbers to help you set yourself some goals, and you can afford those numbers fantastic. If you can't afford them, don't worry about it, I always tell people just do what you can take a look at your budget, see if if saving for college or for your kids future in some way is important to you. And you don't you're not able to save as much as you'd like. Or there are other places that you could cut back. But just do what you can, any amount that you save is going to help you it's going to make your costs lower in the end again, because you've saved some instead of borrowing it all. It's gonna reduce, reduce those stress levels. So just do whatever you can don't stress out about the big numbers, every single little bit helps.
Hannah Choi 26:10
And listen to a really great episode that College Coach did on scholarships. And like my daughter's in ninth grade. So it's still pretty early, but I know it's going to happen fast. And I have to say after listening to that episode, I felt a lot better. Like, oh, there are so many options for scholarships out there. Yes, it requires a lot of work. And a lot of planning. A lot of executive function skills come into place that come into play. But yeah, all in all, hope is not lost.
26:38
No. And I will tell you, the the numbers bear out that add I think these these numbers, they helped me a lot what I think about I think they help other people at public colleges, about three quarters of students receive some type of scholarship or grant discount, they are not paying full price at private colleges that have those super high sticker prices. Almost 90% of students are getting a discount. So in fact, almost nobody is paying those super high standard prices that you see discounts are readily available. Again, it's just a matter of putting the work in to find the discounts applying for need based financial aid, if you might qualify for that looking for schools where you might stand out be above average, that will maximize your chances of getting merit scholarships, so So yeah, don't be turned off by the full giant, huge sticker prices, because almost nobody is actually paying them.
Hannah Choi 27:44
Yeah, that's good to know. Yeah. Yeah, I was very lucky when I went to college. Well, I guess you could I don't know if it's luck or not. But I very much qualified for need based. So I hardly paid anything. And I went to a private, expensive private college, and we hardly paid anything. So yeah, great. Actually,
Shannon Vasconcelos 28:06
it seems to be the case that those super pricey expensive private schools, they've got sort of a lot of money to play with, they tend to be the most generous with, particularly the need based financial aid. So don't get scared off by the sticker prices. There are absolutely ways to get discounts and most people aren't paying the whole huge sticker price.
Hannah Choi 28:29
Yeah. So thinking about answering those four questions. It, it really helps to break it down. And at the same time, you still have to like, track all that information. Do you have any suggestions for staying organized and not letting not letting all that become overwhelming?
28:50
Yeah, I think that it's great, too. And it's great for saving for college. It's great for achieving all your financial goals. really setting up your own budget, or I prefer to call them spending plans. I think people are scared off by the B word. Budget. What do you think of it as a spending plan? It's okay, this is your income. This is what I get to spend this is this is a positive? How do I want to spend my money? What do I value? And so keeping track of what you're actually spending your money on? does it align with what you value what you determined because you've thought about this, you've got organized. You know, keeping track of that spending in an organized manner is I think really critical to be able to save effectively for college and really kind of any financial goal that you might have is taking a look at the numbers and not just spending sort of money mindlessly, which we all do on occasion, yeah. That to a minimum and making sure your spending and alignment, spending and saving and alignment with what is most important to you, is, I think, really, really key to this process.
Hannah Choi 30:17
We just, we just started using it at the beginning of this calendar year, we just started using a budgeting app, a spending plan app called called, You Need a Budget, which is colloquially colloquially called YNAB. And and I love that you said does it align with your values, and that's what's been really neat about, about tracking and watching how we spend our money, and what we spend it on is showing us what our values are, and where the money is going to. And it's, it's, it's just made me a lot more aware of how we spend our money. And, and I catch myself saying, you know, is this in alignment with my values, whatever it is. And it's, as someone who is anxious about money, it has really helped me feel better about about how about spending and about saving our money, which has been really, really great.
31:18
That's fantastic. And yeah, people who use that you need a budget app are devoted to it, I haven't personally used it.
Shannon Vasconcelos 31:28
Yeah, it's got a cult following.
31:30
So if you're in the market, like that's one that you that you might want to look at, it doesn't work for everybody, some people are, like, I just You just like kind of a regular spreadsheet, I just get and that that like works for me. But like everybody is so different. And that that is one that a lot of people love. So that's what it's not so
Hannah Choi 31:50
Yeah, it's very well loved by many people who have ADHD, because of something about like, how it's organized, it's it's very motivating to us. And it's, there's just like a huge population of people with ADHD who really love what they have.
32:06
So I totally get that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I would, I would also say, just sort of set up like a system to review your college savings progress regularly. And this is not the kind of thing I don't think that you have to be like in your college savings account, you know, on online site, like, every day did it go up. That will drive you crazy. But maybe set like a once a year, check in, you've set it up, maybe with automatic investments that I really, really recommend that will help keep people on track. Like don't give yourself a chance to spend the money. You can automatic deposit automatic deposits every month. But like make a an effort, maybe put something on the calendar once a year to just take a look at it review your college savings plan is what you're doing still working for you? Or do you want to change things I think having some level of flexibility is really important to being successful with with college savings are probably the most kind of long term financial goal. You know, think about things like maybe you've had a job change. So maybe, maybe you're making more money now. So think about that automatic deposit that you set up, maybe could you increase that, or maybe the maybe you've gotten laid off or you've chosen to take a step back and work maybe you have less money available. And maybe you need to adjust what you're putting into the college savings because again, it's spending in alignment with their values, maybe you've decided you value some some other things that need to take priority over college savings at this point. So be thinking about those things set up sort of an maybe an annual check in to think about that, though, the mounts that you're saving. I also think one tip that I think is really helpful to folks with young kids. If you're thinking about this early, which is awesome. You've got a baby or toddler and you want to start saving for college, which is great time on your side. That's fantastic. Yeah. But you might not have a ton of money if you are paying for like full time childcare, right? A lot. A lot left in your budget for college saving. And if you can do a little if you can do $25 a month, $50 a month. I definitely recommend doing it because every little bit does help. But what about when your child enters kindergarten if they're going into the public school system, you don't have to pay 1000 2000 Whatever it is, that opens up more ability to save for college.
Hannah Choi 34:55
You take that money wouldn't that be great if you could take all of that money you've been putting there and stick it right In the 529.
35:00
One hundred percent, that will like, put jet fire into your college savings. But if you don't think about it, if you don't do this kind of checking, it becomes really easy to just that money trickles out and is spent on other things. And you all of a sudden, where did I used to have to pay $2,000 a month for child care now, I don't feel $2,000 A month richer, because going out into the world and all these different ways, but make that concerted effort to check in, oh, I've got I'm gonna bout to have this new money in my budget, I can direct all of it would be great, or even some portion of it into college savings. That will really kind of supercharge your savings and child care, I think is the most obvious one, a lot of parents of young kids are still paying back their own student loans. So again, maybe you can't afford a ton right now, because you're working on paying off your own student loan. But once those student loan payments, and maybe that's an opportunity to supercharge your savings, so So checking in kind of regularly as circumstances change. And I think also your your college expectations could change. And that could affect, you know, that type of account that you want to save. And that's something that you can change along the way. So maybe when your kids were young, you weren't really sure is college going to be in their future or not, maybe you weren't really comfortable doing that 529, where you get the great tax break for college. But if you use it for something else, you got to have to pay a penalty. So maybe that scared you off the 529 at first and you just wanted to use a regular savings account to get started. And then that was working for you. But as the years tick by maybe you realize, I'm pretty sure my kids are going to go to college, this is going to be what we're going to use this money for. Maybe at that point, instead of doing the regular savings account that doesn't get you a tax break, maybe you start putting money into a 529 later on once you're more confident that college is in the future. And then I think it can also you know work in reverse, maybe you started saving in a 529 when your kid was a baby. And as they get further on in their, you know their high school years, you you come to realize they're not really interested in college, this isn't the path that they're on, then maybe you can switch to start saving into a more flexible house. So just setting up that kind of, you can do it at different intervals, I think, at least early on, like an annual check in is a good point to just set aside a little time we put it on the calendar, you know, reoccurring appointment. Now just set aside a time look at your budget, look at how your savings is doing look at where it is, is this plan that I set up initially still working for me? Or is it time to do some adjustments? I think that will help folks along the way.
Hannah Choi 37:59
I love that that's a great example of how cognitive flexibility the executive function skill of cognitive flexibility comes in. Because you have to be able to look and say like, this is the plan that I originally had, or that we originally had, is that still the case? Oh, it's not okay, well, what's something else that we can do? And, and that can be really challenging for people. So having the additional knowledge about the other options is a great way to make it even more easy to be flexible. So completely.
38:30
And, and, and sort of said this, but I think to reiterate, you know, being flexible, I don't think means being like reactive again. Yeah, I don't recommend like, looking at your account every day. Oh, no, it went down a little bit, I need to pull my money out. It's, it's not that kind of you have to be able to sort of deal with your emotions, a little bit of doing any kind of investment is, you know, if you're in the stock market at all stocks go up and down, right. You know, so you can't be sort of, you need to be able to control your your emotions to some extended, stocks went down. My Accounts down today, or maybe even this year, stocks are down. That does not make me happy. I wish it was that way. But I know this is a long term endeavor. And this doesn't change my overall goals. So I'm not going to panic, you know, and I see that and I'm going to, I'm going to stick to my plan that I know is right for me at this time. And I will review that plan annually and I'm willing to change if the plan doesn't make sense anymore. But this this knee jerk reaction I'm having on this one day does not mean the plan doesn't work anymore. It's understanding that kind of upfront And I think knowing, doing that sort of internal introspection, to know your risk tolerance is important upfront, if you are going to be in the stock market at all, you have to be able to deal with the with those ups and downs, you have to be, you know, willing to take those risks for the potential of greater return. If that does not sit well with you, if you're like, this will just stress me out every day, then maybe you shouldn't be in the stock market, like you think about like, what's the like, absolute best, like financial thing is not always what's best for your life. Day to day living, if you have a very low risk tolerance, maybe you think about using a lower kind of risky investments. So like that high yield savings account, or a more conservative kind of fund, I think there's actually I neglected to mention, in addition to 529s or like the kind of most popular type of college savings account, there's another one that is available in some states, not all states, but some states have a prepaid tuition plan. Okay, tuition plan, what you're basically doing is kind of locking in tomorrow's tuition at today's prices. And they generally work they're you, unlike 529s where you can invest in any states 529. And you can use the money for college in any state, they're, they're more flexible. With prepaid tuition plans, you're locking in tuition, usually at your home state colleges, okay. So if you're fairly confident that your child is like likely to attend an in state public university prepaid plans can be a really good option. And what they're essentially doing again, you're kind of locking in that tuition. at today's prices, what's kind of happening behind the scenes is a guaranteed rate of return, if you wish and goes up 3%. Every year, your investment makes 3% Every year, so you have the equivalent, and that's guaranteed. So prepaid tuition plans are, you know, a lower risk option, you're not subject to the whims of the stock market, every year, the flip side, the more negative side to it is, you're also probably not going to make a ton of money, tuition, what we've been seeing lately is kind of two or 3%, average annual tuition increases, so you're going to make a decent rate of return, I think mind blowing, but you're also not going to lose money. So again, thinking about your risk tolerance, maybe the prepaid tuition plan sounds better to you than 529 money in the stock market. And I should say that even though they're sort of tied to in state tuition rates, you're not 100% locked into to your child attending an in state public university, oh, that usually happens if they choose an out of state school or private school, you get your money back, plus some sort of minimal return returns.
Hannah Choi 38:58
So, you don't lose anything.
41:02
Kind of a lower risk option. So again, thinking about your risk tolerance. And if you feel like seeing the stock market go down, it's going to make you lose your mind and give up on saving altogether. Like a prepaid plan is a better option for you.
Hannah Choi 43:50
Because they're such a such a great example of how important it is to have this self awareness of, of, you know, what like, like you said, your own risk tolerance, or even your kids like to teach your kids like, you know, what do you want out of your college experience? Do you want to stay close to home? Do you want a bigger school, you know, or do you want a smaller school or, you know, if they know what they want to be when they grow up, then you'd look at that like that, that local public school and see if it has what they're interested in. So just that self awareness, metacognition is the is a good executive function skill, just knowing like how we tick is so important in that in the ability to be proactive instead of reactive.
Shannon Vasconcelos 44:34
makes so much sense. Totally.
Hannah Choi 44:37
Yeah, that's great. And, and also, like you said, that emotional regulation piece, and not having that reactive need knee jerk reaction and seeing Yes, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint, where, hopefully it's a marathon. Hopefully you've started this planning earlier. That makes me think like, what if? What if? What if plans change and you do have to be really flexible and your kid is like, actually, you know what I want to go to college not started saving until they're maybe a junior or a senior in high school is all are you? Are you kind of out? You know, I don't want to say screwed, are you? Is it too late for you? Or is there something still that you could do?
Shannon Vasconcelos 45:21
No, I would say it is never too late to save for college, I like to like to say it's never too early to get started. It's never too late to get started. Where ever you are at, in this process, whether you got small, like elementary schoolers at home or you've got again that like junior in high school, and you haven't started savings yet. It's never too late to make that decision. And again, like crossing that hurdle. Yes, I'm gonna do that. That is the most important thing and everything else can flow from there. And is it realistic, if you're starting junior year in high school to say I'm going to save 100% of college costs? Probably not. But that's okay. Every single little bit helps every dollar that you save, that you don't have to now borrow is going to make a big difference to you. In terms of, again, how much that that college education costs you in the end. And again, like your stress levels, yeah, I'm not going to have enough to totally pay for college out of my savings account. But I'm going to have some, I'm gonna have a low, maybe I can pay for books. That alone is a big step and a big stress reducer. So wherever you're at just making the decision to get started, I think is key. And again, you want to think about okay, we don't have a long time horizon anymore. So maybe I don't want to be in super risky investments, maybe I want to play it a little safer.
Hannah Choi 46:53
But what about for, what about for teens who work themselves and they make their own money? And that they would like to save for college? Should they just put it into their own 529? Or is there some other sort of more beneficial account that a team could set up?
47:10
I think you could do it a couple of different ways. Like if you're sure this money is going to be you want to use it for college tuition, or food and housing, those are all kind of eligible 529 expenses, then yes, absolutely. Put it into the 529, again, gets you a little tax break. Now the later you're starting this kind of I would say the less significant that 529 tax break is. Because it's you get the growth on the account tax free, that's the benefit to the 529 Money's only going to be in there a few months, like there's just not that much time for the money to grow, the growth is not going to be that huge. Again, there'll be a little savings there and all likelihood, but you want to weigh like how important is tying the money up for this specific use. And compared to the tax break, you're gonna get out of it. But I think if you and one sort of cognitively nice thing about the 529, I think it lacks flexibility. You think of that as a negative buy for somebody who might be tempted to spend this money on something else, having it tied up where you have to pay a penalty, get it out, that can be a nice incentive to keep it there.
Hannah Choi 48:34
Yeah. So if you struggle with self control, built in built in strategy, totally
48:42
Yeah. So So a student who is making their own money could put it into their 529. They could also just put it into, like we met like a high yield savings account that gives them some more flexibility. Like maybe maybe it's not necessarily money that you're going to use for tuition, but it's maybe to pay for books, or it's to pay for, you know, pizza on a Friday night, or one of those other kinds of expenses that might make for a great college experience. Maybe you want to be able to buy tickets to the football games on campus, or the concerts and kids like those other things that aren't a direct college expense that the 529 intention, just putting it into a regular savings account, where you have total flexibility within the money for a student that might be very appropriate for them so they can use it for all those other fun college expenses. Tuition, maybe not that fun, but college expenses.
Hannah Choi 49:42
Yeah, it's so important to to do those fun things because college isn't just about the academics. It's so much about the social part. So that's great. All right. So I have to say like I feel better after hearing all this. I also feel like if I was not married to the person I'm married to, I would still need some help. What if you're like me, and you're still like sweaty palms like this still feels overwhelming. Who can you? I mean, I could reach out to you, I suppose.
Shannon Vasconcelos 50:19
Call me and I'm always here.
50:26
Honestly, that's, that's about half of my job. So that's totally fine to do that. But yeah, I think that asking for help in this process because it is so big because it is overwhelming, I think is a really important skill to have. And I actually think about asking for help when it when it comes to paying for college, I think about it in a few different ways. One is asking for help from friends and family to reach your college savings goals. Because it is a big number. It for most people saving that full price is not really possible on their own. So most 529 plans have a feature where you can ask friends and family for contributions to your colleges savings account, maybe for birthdays or holidays, I do this for my kids as a way like to send a little automatic email to the grandparents. And so and so's birthday is coming up, he would love a contribution to his college savings fun. And I have actually found, like family being like, surprisingly, like excited about it like thing to do, this isn't going to be a toy that gets broken in five minutes, or they're gonna like outgrow this is like really substantial way to help it small amounts at a time. But like every birthday, like a little contribution to the college savings fund, like again, it adds up over time. So I would not be shy about asking for help from friends and family in that way, I found that they're actually they think it's cool and fun and very amenable to that.
Hannah Choi 52:20
We have, we have a family friend who is kind of like a third set of grandparents for kids. And she used to do very similarly what you do, and and so when my kids were little little she would buy them gifts. And then at one point, I think when they were maybe four or five, she switched. And now she just gives them something very small, like just like a book or something. And then she sends a check with the thing, it says "for the 529".
52:49
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think that that's a great thing to do. You don't have to go this alone in that way in terms of getting to the numbers that you want. I also think about asking for help in terms of down the line, applying for financial aid. And, again, almost nobody pays full price for college that financial aid is available. So when down the line certainly apply for it asked for that help when you need it, thinking about it. Now, if your kids are younger, like I think just knowing that that help is available down the line, it is helpful in terms of removing some of the intimidation factor, I have to save it, I'm going to apply for financial aid when my kids is senior in high school. You don't have to do it all yourself. So just knowing that upfront and certainly, oh my god, please apply for financial aid. Like that it's not something to be scared again, when you take the things that are intimidating, something like filling out the forms are in the air intimidating, please, please do it. And please ask for help with that if you need it. But that that financial assistance is available. So ask for that down the line and going into things know that that is available. And then finally, in terms of asking you for help, like again, with the whole setup of this whole process or I'm not sure about these decisions I've made I know these four questions, but I'm not sure what the right answer is. You can actually literally ask for you know professional help with that you can go to you have a financial planner that you're already working with or you're looking for a financial planner can can help with the setting up of a college savings account. If you're just like look, I cannot deal with it. Again, I want to let people know they've made them pretty user friendly. Like you can do it on your own but if it's something like not worth the stress to you go to a financial planner, they can set up these accounts for you. Or you can go to to us at Bright Horizons College Coach and educational counselor that can that can help you work through these questions and help you make you You know, the right decisions for you. And again, we can check in with people I would actually recommend we work with with folks families privately. So you can go to our website getintocollege.com. And, and reach out to us that way. But we also work as an employer benefit with a lot of companies. So it's something to check in with your employer, do you offer college counseling as an employee benefit? And because we do, we work with a lot of companies, and so employees of companies hire us to work with their employees for free. It's really cool. Yeah. And sometimes we're sort of like an under the radar benefit. And people don't realize that that we're there. Sometimes they realize it, but it's not till their kids are senior in high school. They'll help at that, at that point with the college application process and the financial aid application process. But we can work with you when you have a newborn baby and are thinking about how to save for college. So I would say, check with your employer to see if they offer Bright Horizons college coach as an employee benefit, and then we can help you for free. Otherwise, go to our website, get into college.com. And we're happy to help.
Hannah Choi 56:08
That's awesome. Cool. Well, I think that is if you can, if you can stay organized, or get organized. And ask yourself those four questions, regulate your emotions, take some time to really reflect on what you are like as a person, how you can handle this, what kind of help you do need. And if you do need, use those self advocacy skills and ask for the help that you need. And go into that meeting with some concrete questions that you've come up with. Because you have taken the time to figure out what you need and what questions you have. I think that sounds like a great recipe for success. Combining financial planning with executive function skills. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. This is really interesting and also very calming. I feel good. I feel better about it. I assume so. And also. Yeah, good. Just listening to you speak so fluently about him like, oh, it's must not be that big of a deal. Because she's not tripping over her words so it must not be that hard
57:22
You can do it. And I know you're already doing it. You can do it. And everyone listening. This is something that you can do again, ask for help if you need it. But but you can do this and every little bit helps. Great. All right.
Hannah Choi 57:37
Well, thanks again, Shannon. I really appreciate the time, your time today and all the great information that you shared is awesome,
57:43
Oh, you're so welcome.
Hannah Choi 57:47
And that's our show for today. Thanks for taking time out of your day to listen and I hope you learned something and maybe found some relief like I did. Just because it's money doesn't mean it has to be awful. You can find links to the resources that Shannon suggested in the show notes. And if you know anyone who might benefit from this episode, you can share it with them. If you have any questions or topic suggestions you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I'd love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Our talented editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our Ultra creative content marketer is Justice Abbott and a very special thanks to Ian Fisher at Bright Horizons College coach for connecting me with Shannon. Thanks for listening
Applying for college can feel like a monumental, overwhelming task - and that’s because it is! There are so many deadlines, details, and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic Executive Function skills - but does it have to be? And then, once you get there, how do you set yourself up for success as a college student with EF challenges? I wondered how I could use the platform of Focus Forward to help those of you out there find some resources and strategies to make applying and going to college a little easier. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at McMillan Education, an organization whose goal is to help make the process of applying to college a little easier and less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at McMillan came to my rescue! We met on a sunny morning just last week to have a chat about all things college - both before and after acceptance. Keep listening to learn how you can make the most of this next chapter and if your kiddos are too young to be thinking about college, tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It’ll be here waiting for you!
In the meantime, here are some show notes related to the episode:
Guide to Colleges for Students with Learning Differences (check your local library or school counseling office)
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Colleges-Students-Learning-Differences-dp-0593517407/dp/0593517407/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
McMillan Education
https://www.mcmillaneducation.com/
WISE Advice on Educational Planning - McMillan’s Podcast
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2134583
Students with Disabilities Preparing for Postsecondary Education:
Know Your Rights and Responsibilities
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/transition.html
Self-Advocacy for College Students
https://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-students
7 Ways to Support Your Teen During the College Application Process
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/7-ways-support-your-teen-during-college-application-ellis-mba-phd/
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So I was talking with my children's former second grade teacher recently and she was telling a funny story about how the stress of applying to college was affecting her and her daughter, who is a senior in high school. Another friend of mine, Bonnie, who you might know from my tip of the day about body doubling on Instagram. She shared with me that she was wondering how she could support her son, who is a junior in high school in the college search and application process without actually doing the work for him. There are so many deadlines and details and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic EF skills, throw in a neurodivergent brain and it is bound to be an extremely challenging experience. But does it have to be? I wondered how we here at Focus Forward could help my friend and my children's teacher find some resources and strategies to set their kids up for success during the stressful time. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at Mcmillan Education, which is an organization that does exactly that - make the process of applying to college a little easier and a little less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at Mcmillian. Excuse me, Mcmillan came to my rescue. We met on a Sunday morning just last week to have a chat about all things college, both before and after acceptance. So keep listening to learn. And if your kiddos are too young for this info at this time, just tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It'll be here waiting for you. Or listen anyway, just because you're a Focus Forward super fan. I'm just kidding. But speaking of our amazing fans, if you listen to us on Spotify or Apple podcasts, could you please do me a big huge favor and give us a five star rating, we will love you forever for it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And don't forget to reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com If you have any topic ideas that you'd like us to cover. Okay, now on to the show. Well, hi, Rachel, thanks so much for joining me today.
Rachel Leja 02:33
Hi, Hannah. It's nice to be here.
Hannah Choi 02:35
Yeah, I'm so excited to to talk about this because my kids, my daughter is in ninth grade. So this is going to be something that is coming up for us. So it's good to kind of figure things out, things have changed since I went to school some number of years ago, we won't count that. And so would you introduce yourself and explain why you are here and what your background is?
Rachel Leja 03:05
Sure. So my name is Rachel Leja and I work for Mcmillan Education. We are an educational consulting firm out of Boston. And I work with students that have learning disabilities or neurodivergence of some type. And my background is in special education teaching. I started my career at the Landmark School in Beverly, Massachusetts, where I fell in love with all things executive functioning. And I took what I learned there, and I transitioned to a therapeutic day school in Connecticut, where I imparted a lot of that wisdom and honed a lot of that work, especially with students as they were applying to colleges. And after I left the teaching world, I've joined Mcmillan and much of my work has been with students. I work with school aged students as well for school placement, but I do a lot of college work. And a lot of my work revolves around students that have a neurodivergence, and specifically some executive functioning deficits. So a lot of my work is focused on helping them manage the process and also bolster those skills during that time.
Hannah Choi 04:06
So you have you have such a great background for that you have like the the teaching sort of student support side and the kind of knowledge about the whole application process. So it's like, yeah, really great combination.
Rachel Leja 04:17
Sort of a convergence of all of my worlds.
Hannah Choi 04:19
Yeah, that's really neat. I love that. Cool. Great. So could you tell me a little bit about McMillan and maybe how like, just how you guys approach supporting kids when they're applying to school? Sure. So,
Rachel Leja 04:36
Macmillan education, like I said, we are located out of Boston, but we have consultants kind of all over. I'm actually in Connecticut. We have about 18 or 20 consultants that work with all types of different students and learners. We have folks that specialize in things like international placement or athletic recruiting. And like I said, I work with students with learning disabilities. So we all kind of have our own well, areas of expertise and we assign students kind of based on their background coming in to work with counselors. And our job is to really help students to break down the college process itself. For all students, not even those that are, you know, in addition to those that struggle with executive functioning, most students find the college process overwhelming. So really spending the time to break that down into meaningful chunks. And to help students really execute that application process. So everything from college search, to standardized testing, to pressing, you know, send on those applications very soon, is really what we do with students.
Hannah Choi 05:37
That's great. I have a friend whose son is a junior in high school, and she just said to me the other day, I, you know, I want him to take ownership of it, because it's his college experience. And it's his, you know, it's his high school experience, and his, you know, it's his life. And at the same time, she's like, I feel like I need to support him as well. So it sounds like the services that you guys provide, probably make it so that parents can learn support, but also take a step back a little bit and give some of the ownership to the kid.
Rachel Leja 06:13
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, part of our process is meeting with everybody. First, we have a meeting where we talk with students and parents, and we get some insight about kind of the student's goals wants, you know, hopes for the future, but also the same from the parents. And then usually, it's largely hands off with parents, and it allows them to kind of step back and be a part of those more fun parts of the process, like going on college tours, or, you know, kind of talking about the things that their kids are excited about about college and not having to worry about some of those, like, you know, the the little tasks that can be lagging and aggravating, and then lets us kind of, you know, be those people and instead kind of helps students stay accountable while keeping peace at home.
Hannah Choi 06:58
I mean, I see that a lot as a coach, you know, just getting be allowing the parents to step out of that, like you said, like that sort of naggy role. And it's different when it's not someone in your family, when it's when it's someone outside your family. Working with you and supporting you with that kind of stuff, it it, it hits differently than when is your parents. Right, right. You know, did you did you do this? Did you do that?
Rachel Leja 07:19
Right? Yeah. And one thing that's you know, we always say is that we are truth tellers. So we are here to just share the information that we have with students and families and sometimes utilizing that objective data can really help to clarify things for students and for parents. And so, you know, that's, that's also part of our process with students and families.
Hannah Choi 07:39
Okay, so if you're working with a student who has, you know, a disability or ADHD or something like that, how do you support them? And how, what are the kind of the progress that what are the steps that you take? Yeah, to support them through that?
Rachel Leja 07:54
That's a great question. So we use in our college planning, what we call our WISE method of educational planning, which is broken into four steps. So already, we're breaking a larger task down for all of our students. So that first step is really the "wondering" phase, like, you know, thinking about what's my ideal college, what's available out there, what am I interested in. In that "investigation" phase, where we are really digging deep on colleges and looking into services, requirements, things like that, that "seek" phase, again, we're really doing a lot more of that kind of deep work. And then "endeavoring" is really just, you know, putting those applications together. So throughout those phases, for all of our students were utilizing this process and through the platform that we have called the owls nest, students are assigned tasks throughout that process that align both with the college process itself and with our wise methods. So that's one way that we kind of helped to break down and keep students accountable throughout the process for each of those tasks. The college process itself requires a ton of executive functioning skills. And even for students with strong executive functioning skills, the sheer amount of information and deadlines can be really overwhelming. So by breaking it into those meaningful and manageable chunks, that can help to increase clarity and productivity and also help students to manage the stress of the college application process. So my job is to just really help kids to get out of their heads, externalize some of their thinking, put things on paper, have conversations in a way that helps them to really wrap their brain around what they're looking at and what they want. Because it's it's such a daunting process. So my job is to help kind of make that process a little bit less mysterious.
Hannah Choi 09:47
Yeah, it's something that I've been that has kind of been trending for me lately is this idea of the strategies that that people with executive function challenges use can be used by anybody and and like you said, you know, it's this breaking things down and making things more accessible, making things easier that benefits everybody, regardless of any, like ADHD diagnosis or any other diagnosis, like why not take advantage of all of these strategies that are really helpful? Right? Yeah, I love that the students can have a place that they can go to see what their next steps are. So it's the accountability is on them to do it. And yet that you give them some autonomy to say like, Okay, I need, I need to, I need to make this choice to log into this account and see what the next steps are, and and figure out when I'm going to do that, and how I'm going to make that fit into my busy schedule. So I love that you, you, you give them you support them with the tools that they need to, to work towards that independence, and you give them the opportunity to have some autonomy, about around how they're going to approach it and when they're going to approach it.
11:02
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things in my work that I like to do at first, especially, is to really model all of those good behaviors for students like when we're getting together, okay, we're logging in together, we're looking at your Owl's Nest, we're looking at your common app, we are, you know, modeling these behaviors for students so that they understand, you know, how to create good habits around this. It's not second nature for a lot of kids to just like, know how to research such a vast topic, and what to do with all that information. So a lot of it for us is really guiding students in those initial phases. And then by this time of year, hopefully, and many of my students are doing this, they're really taking off and they really are taking ownership. I've had a couple of meetings just this week with students where they've come in with their own agenda, and you know, their own set of questions for me, and I feels like I'm no longer leading the meeting, and I'm just really helping guide them, which is my favorite part.
Hannah Choi 11:55
Oh, I love that. That's great. So speaking of this time of year, I mean, we are recording this, at the end of October, and this episode is going to drop in, in November. So at what point is, should people be by this point? And and, you know, listeners, if you're listening at any other time of year, it's still this, this information is still going to be relevant, because, you know, you can write down some information, save it for the future. But you know, like, at what kind of like, what's a good timeline, the least stressful timeline, then somebody could follow?
12:34
Yeah, that's a great question. So we have a lot of families that come to us early in the process. I currently have a couple of sophomores on my roster that I'm working with and, and that work is really just geared towards helping to guide them through high school and their experience and sort of thinking about, you know, what are your interests? What are the courses that you're taking? What extracurriculars are you pursuing? So you know, that is certainly an okay time to start as well. But most students start kind of in their junior year, I usually start more intensive work with students over the summer before senior year. So our hope is to really focus the bulk of the writing during that junior summer, or that summer leading up to senior year so that when senior year hits, and you are back in the thick of it with schoolwork and applicant finalizing your applications, that that is kind of off your plate kind of that that task is one less thing to do. And that allows you to do things like you know, go on some last minute visits, and you know, maybe have some more conversations about strategy with your with your counselor. But I certainly also have students that come to me at the beginning of senior fall, and they haven't maybe done any work at all, or they've done some work. It's certainly doable. It's a little bit more of a stressful timeline. But we generally get it done. I mean, in early applications are going in November 1, which means ideally, we'd love kids to press that submit button tomorrow to account for any possible technical difficulties that might come their way. But you know, there's, there's really, it's never to, actually I don't want to say it's never too early to start, it would be certainly too early to start in eighth grade or something like that. But kind of starting the big picture process. Thinking about college as you enter high school is certainly not uncommon, especially in the changing landscape of college, which continues to be more competitive than ever. So I think you know, general rule of thumb by junior year, mid junior year, you're thinking about it, you're starting to go on college visits and spring of junior year and then in summer really focusing your attention on kind of those basic application parts so that you can take those off your plate later on in the fall.
Hannah Choi 14:48
Yeah, and that's such a it's so important to reduce the stress as much as possible because I mean life as a student is stressful enough if you are also challenged with executive dysfunction for whatever reason, when you're stressed the areas that start that challenge you are going to challenge you even more. So I can see how it is so important to take your stress levels into consideration when you're applying to, you know, to college, or when you are just going through the whole process, whether you're doing applications or whether you're actually in the application part or not.
15:27
Yeah, and I think just the the part of starting early, that also helps us it just gives you more knowledge from an earlier start. So that things you know, when something's less of an unknown, it's less intimidating, it's easier to initiate. So I think the more exposure that students can have, I mean, I know a lot of families with multiple kids who, you know, I go to visit colleges often. And I will see, you know, obviously a junior touring with maybe their freshman sibling or something like that, that's a great way to expose kids to just what college campuses look like. And another note, on your point about kind of those students that struggle with executive functioning is, you know, a lot of a lot of my work is helping students to sort of recognize the areas in which they are weakest when it comes to those executive functions, not to point fingers and say, You're bad at this, but to say, this is an area that you need some extra support. And, you know, if I'm starting to see a student really struggle, you know, we're looking at, you know, early decision deadlines, and it's two weeks before and you haven't, you know, done any outside work, or you know, you have you've been missing meetings with me, that's some really good data that we can use to inform your college selection process, because not all colleges are going to offer that type of support that's going to allow those students to transition from often highly scaffolded high school programs into a much more independent college landscape.
Hannah Choi 16:51
Something to keep in mind, which is related a little bit to what we were just saying is, if you have a diagnosis, you probably want to keep schools in mind that are going to be supportive of someone who might be taken advantage of accommodations. So how do you support students who maybe have used accommodations in high school and would like to continue, or at least have the option?
17:14
Yeah, to to do that, so many students don't realize that their IEP isn't going to follow them to college, and that we're going to need to look to sort of the, the originator of a lot of those recommendations and accommodations, which is often neuropsychological testing. So I think it's really important for students, especially as they're entering college, to be really familiar with that testing, we like it to be, you know, at least within two years, so that it's recent. And the reason for that is not just so that the information, you know, the data is most recent on the student, but also that the recommendations and accommodations that are being suggested, are relevant to a college setting. So you know, helping a student read through their neuropsych evaluation, maybe not all the nitty gritty, but looking at, you know, how do these things translate? What are these recommendations mean for you in a college setting? And think about what did that look like when you were in high school. So I often say to students, I'd really like you to tell me what you felt you needed in order to be successful in high school, what has helped you specifically, so kind of going through that list, and sometimes that's utilizing the IEP to say, you know, I did use this accommodation, and it was great, or I didn't actually need extra time as much as I thought I would. So that might not be something that I need in college. But the flip side of that conversation is, you know, the expectations of high school and the expectations of college are very different. Students that didn't feel they needed extra time in high school, with the increase in pace, volume and complexity of college level work might find that that extra time is absolutely necessary. So having that conversation about, you know, maybe more accommodations is better, you don't necessarily need to utilize them all, but they're there if you do need them. So having really frank conversations about what their diagnosis means for them. In some instances, we work with students to kind of acquire those accommodations, that's another service that we offer. So in that case, you know, scripting with students, having them you know, be comfortable explaining to a stranger, you know, this is my diagnosis, this is what it looks like for me. And these are the things that are most helpful to me, academically, and students having a level of comfort with even just the language like understanding, you know, the words that are going to help them best advocate for themselves. And those kinds of educational buzz phrases are buzzwords that kids might necessarily not necessarily be familiar with, but they see plastered all over the websites for every, you know, Academic Support Center at every college. So, a lot of just education around, you know, what is your diagnosis mean for you? What does it mean at a college level? And how might you find that support and best fit environment based on that information?
Hannah Choi 19:54
So how do how do students know where to look? And like is There's sort of like a clearing house of schools that are great for supporting people that might take advantage of
20:07
Yeah, you won't see this, but I'm holding a book that I use a lot. So the Princeton Review has a book called the "K and W Guide to Colleges", for students with learning differences. And I think that's a great place to start for families, because it does a really nice job of breaking down the levels of support that students will find at colleges. So to use some of their language, each college that's included in their guide is kind of coded. So there are the most structured programs. So those are the most comprehensive, usually fee based, they require some sort of application process or contract with the student. And they offer the most robust support delivered by learning specialists. In some instances, there's kind of a reverse FERPA where students will allow their parents to have communication with the college. So that can be really helpful for students that want to feel like you know, they have kind of a team around them supporting them, you know, those can often involve cohort learning. So grouping of students based on their needs. You know, I'm thinking of, of a of a couple of particular programs that offer within those cohorts, one on one support, which could be highly individualized based on a student's needs based on that documentation. But also small group instruction around things like executive functioning skills, and strategies, or even some content work with writing, reading comprehension. So those were the most kind of structured programs, and there are certainly many of those out there. And they're growing, because I think colleges are recognizing the need for that, not just coming out of COVID. But just coming out of a world where students are so highly structured in high school, you know, their, their time is accounted for almost 100% Every day, and then getting to college and recognizing, whoa, I have all this freedom, I only have two classes a day, this should be no problem. And we all know how that can go south very quickly. And then there's more coordinated services, where they're going to be services on campus where students can avail themselves of a writing center, a math center, maybe it's content, tutoring with peers, or professionals. Sometimes this is fee based, sometimes it's built into the college. But those services really rely on the student to lean in. Whereas those more structured programs, they're not going to go looking for you. They're not going to really be knocking on your door and the door of a door if you don't show up. But they are going to say "hey, I noticed that you weren't at our, you know, you missed our meeting the other day, what's going on?" In those coordinated services type schools, there's going to be more more responsibility on the student to access those services, which can be great for a student that is more independent and knows what works for them, I have several students that, you know, have said to me, I feel really confident in my ability to seek out what I need, consistently, great, we can look at more of those programs with coordinated services. And then there are those colleges that basically offer, you know, the Federal compliancy. So they are compliant. So they will they will do whatever, to provide reasonable accommodations to students who qualify. And you'll notice that every college says that they can do that. And to you know, a certain extent they can, they can offer extra time, they can offer, you know, preferential test taking spaces or maybe seating, things like that, maybe technology to support students. But that's going to be the least amount of, of oversight from the services to the student, meaning they're not going to, you know, come looking for you and say, Hey, you signed up for you know, you access the accommodations, but you haven't actually used any of them, it's really going to be on the student to do that. And many of your larger universities are going to have that kind of a thing. You know, where they have access to those things, but they need to do that on their own. That being said, there are some other really great larger universities that recognize that need, especially for students as they're transitioning in in their freshman and sophomore year, to offer a little bit more comprehensive support. So I think we're going to see that into the future. Some of these more competitive colleges are going to offer programs for students that are divergent, because they value these students think differently, and recognize that they can bring a lot to their communities.
Hannah Choi 24:21
That's great. Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in California. And it was really neat to see the the variety of students who would come in and you could really see the kids who had, who had practice the scripts and had, you know, really learned how to advocate for themselves and then the kids who were, you know, just learning how to do that. So it is wonderful that you work on that with kids, because it gives the it gives them so much more confidence and ownership of you know, this is something that that they're going out into the world with this year. divergence and it's not going away. And the world is yes, like you said it is slowly changing a little bit. But that's still the safe environment of us of a college. It's not that big outside world. So. So learning how to advocate for yourself is just hugely important. And even, even in the whole application process to I imagine if you don't have any kind of diagnosis, or if you don't struggle with executive function skills, still being able to advocate for yourself and say, you know, this is the kind of school I want, this is the kind of environment I want. Yeah, so I love that I love that what you do, supports kids and, and enables them to, to learn that and to become stronger in that.
25:43
So one part of my work with students is certainly helping them to, like I said, before, that word "demystify", like, what is all this educational jargon mean on these websites, and, you know, I'll have students that say, I looked at XYZ college, and I can't really tell the difference between the three. So kind of helping students to understand, you know, what those buzzwords mean, and how they translate to day to day. experiences for students is really important. So I always encourage families when they're visiting a campus, and if you know, your student is going to need academic services, whether that be executive functioning coaching, or content level coaching, or whatever that may be, go to the office of accommodations, or whatever it's called on campus, have a meeting with somebody in that department. Let me tell you this, they're kind of akin to the librarian, like they can't wait to help. This is their job, this is their passion. And it's so wonderful for students to meet those folks before they even apply to a college because not only does it take away some of the unknowns about you know, are these people nice? Is this in an area of campus, that's going to make it really obvious when I access it, or, you know, how many other kids use this program? Am I going to be the only one, those are things that students can talk about with these folks at these accommodations offices, that will help to de-stigmatize and demystify the whole process so that when they actually land on campus, they say, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go speak to so and so the, in the accommodations office, because we had a really great rapport over the summer when I came for my tour. And I'm excited to, you know, see who I might be working with. And, and as much as you can - Parents, let students lead those meetings. Because, you know, I have lots of kids that go with their parents, and I've observed it myself on tours, where, you know, parents are kind of taking that role of asking all the questions and sharing all the information and as much as you can prepare and encourage your student to do that, because it's just good practice. And it also, you know, is going to create more of a genuine relationship with those folks on campus. And if the parents doing all the communication.
Hannah Choi 27:46
Right, yeah, and the parent, your parents are not going to be there when school starts.
Rachel Leja 27:50
You're going to college!
Hannah Choi 27:53
Yeah, a lot of the students that I work with, are our freshmen and sophomores in college, and they are, much of much of what we will end up talking about is how to take advantage of the services and accommodations that they qualify for. And, and figuring out just the process, and, and how, who to talk to, and what, what documents they need and, and how to take advantage of the services. And I just, I always think like, Oh, if this conversation had been had, before they got there over the summer, or once they were accepted, or whenever it'd be much less stressful, and much less like you said, like a mystery, like, what is this mystery office over here? And yeah, so I really encourage anyone listening, like Rachel said, is, you know, go in there and meet people early and, and you know, write a script out, practice what you're going to say, and figure out the questions you want to ask and write them down, you know, you're probably going to be nervous when you go in. So if we're nervous, it's hard to use our executive function skills. And so I don't know about you, but memory is always my first to go. And I have to write stuff down.
29:06
So yeah, and I encourage students, when they when they go, you know, bring your documentation with you bring your list of recommendations and accommodations and, and highlight that baby up and share it with them. There's no, there's no shame in not being able to remember all the intricacies of your profile. And I think that, you know, those folks would really appreciate having that information up front, because then they can really speak to how they can support you specifically. First, and, and what you know, if there's multiple programs on campus, you'll notice now a lot of schools have kind of differing levels of support different tiers, so they can make recommendations, you know, based on your documentation based on their experience that would be best fit for you.
Hannah Choi 29:46
Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I mean, I just I just the other day did a webinar all about executive function skills and, and a big section that we talked a big thing that we talked about was this is this idea of building independence, those strong skills that you need for independence. And so and so someone who has, you know, who has, who someone who is a neurodiverse has a neurodivergent Berberine is going to, like I said, you know, you're going to have to use these skills when to get out of college. So take advantage of it in. And luckily, it is becoming less stigmatized, and there is more acceptance and conversation being had about it. So take advantage of it. Because you think college is hard. Once you get out of college, and you're out in the real world, you know, there's even less support. So it's such a good place to practice it.
30:41
And it just gives students the opportunity to start taking ownership over the process earlier on, there's so many people that are going to tell you what to do, what to think, where to go, how you know how to strategize. And I think if you have a really clear sense as a student of what's going to benefit you in terms of that support, then it will be easy for you to say, you know, XY and Z College is great, but they certainly don't offer the type of support that I'm looking for. So you know, thank you very much. But no, thank you. I won't be applying to x College, just because you've recommended it.
Hannah Choi 31:12
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. So this goes back to you know, anyone listening, if you are in high school, or you are the parent of someone who is in high school, now is the time to start practicing all of those things. Because what a super safe, supportive environment that you're in right now, to practice that. And it can be hard as a parent to let go and to let you know those potential stumbles happen. But it's it's so important, so important, especially if you have a neurodivergent brain,
31:45
Righ. And I think one thing for parents of all college students, but particularly with that narrow divergent brain is being curious about your student's college search process and not prescriptive. You know, I love having them kind of explained to you why is it this that this college appeals to you and really dig deep? If they'd say, like, you know, they have study abroad? Well, all colleges have study abroad, which particular programs are you interested in, you know, help to kind of elicit some of those conversations that are going to help to kind of crystallize their view of, of this college, instead of saying, like, well, I, you know, I'm not familiar with that college, so it must not be that good. Or are you going to get into a decent grad school with that college? Or, you know, nobody in our family went to that college. Those are all things that parents say, you know, without, without much ill intent, just sort of off-the-cuff just in conversation. But those are the kinds of things that can get into a kid's brain and really keep them from looking at things that are the best fit options for them for them. And it gets them thinking more in terms of aligning their values and beliefs with an end goals with their parents, which don't always match. Oftentimes don't match.
Hannah Choi 32:52
So maybe asking those open ended questions and maybe making observations but, you know, couching it with, like, there's no judgment in this observation, just from a place of curiosity. Yeah, which, again, goes back to how helpful it can be to have someone who is outside of their family and doesn't know the family history and doesn't know those, you know, those specific values, they can look at the student more, you know, the student outside of outside of all the other things that their parents think define the student.
33:24
And it's so helpful to to know those the parents values and the family's values to even if they don't align with the student, because that can be helpful when you experience you know, and this, this often happens at students will have a school on their list that their, their parent might not necessarily be as enthusiastic about and, and just sort of helping them to learn how to how to kind of share with their folks what appeals to them about that particular program. And, you know, I think for parents, I think the most helpful thing that you can do is to kind of, you know, help students lean into the process and, and make time and space for them to explore and help them with things like, you know, help them but don't do for them, you know, scheduling tours, and setting up interviews or taking advantage of opportunities to speak with current students. But really, just, like you said, kind of a no judgment zone and taking more of a backseat role and, and letting them drive the bus. And obviously, as you know, as professionals and as parents at certain points, you need to step in and course correct. But largely, if you give your students the space and the time to explore and to really dig deep and to really do some good reflective work, they're going to come up with a list of colleges, that is really great. And, you know, there's going to be a range of schools on there from, you know, reaches to more target schools to schools that they're, you know, more likely to get into and, and that's totally appropriate. And we encourage that. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 34:51
Which goes back to the whole idea of let's get started a little earlier on this. Yeah, we think we might need to. Yeah, I mean, that's something We that we work on all the time with our clients, like, let's start with this schoolwork or this work project earlier than then you think you might need because it is nice to have that extra time it is less stressful.
Rachel Leja 35:11
And I think for parents right now I'm experiencing this myself with some of the students I'm working with is, you know, it is getting close to deadlines. So they've been really great about standing on the sidelines and, you know, reading my updates and things like that, and communicating with me as necessary. But now that itch to sort of get involved starts to creep up. So it's so tempting to jump in, especially when your kids are struggling, but don't take that as an opportunity to gather some data about, you know, what's holding them up in the process, and what is the stumbling block, and certainly helping them to, you know, come up with strategies to address those, those, those blocks that they're having, but really just sort of thinking, okay, so how is what they're experiencing now going to translate to college. And sometimes that can really help parents to see that their student is going to need a more structured program, or they are going to need more comprehensive support, instead of just doing for them, allowing them to make mistakes, because they will, they will miss deadlines, and you know, things like that along the way. But, you know, all of that is to be sort of observed, again, with curiosity, and how is this going to translate? And how can I best support my students leading up to graduation leading up to the, you know, submitting the applications, whatever it may be to bolster those skills and strategies, they're going to need to be successful as they transition into college?
Hannah Choi 36:33
Yeah, and it's so hard. You know, that's something that we've talked about so many times, it's so hard as parents to back off and say, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you drive the bus. But when they are supported, and given the tools that they need, it can reduce the chance of, you know, missing too many deadlines.
36:56
Right, exactly. Yeah. And, and oftentimes, you know, those, those instances where kids do do mess up or message miss a deadline or something like that, you know, all behaviors, communication. So maybe if we miss some of those early action deadlines, maybe we're not so sure about those colleges, and maybe we need to solidify our list. And, and it's such a, it's such a developmental process and a process of discovery for students. So, you know, so much of the work that we do with kids is centered around mirroring back to them, the the characteristics, the values, the beliefs, that they have the interest, the passions, to help them sort of start to see themselves outside of themselves, like, you know, what do you bring to a college campus and, and sometimes that process takes time. And parents get really nervous that, you know, we're getting close to deadline, and that essay isn't perfect. But, you know, through that process of writing the essay, not only have I learned so much about your students, so that I can guide them to the best, you know, opportunities for them. But they have now learned so much more about themselves. And they just have, you know, after they write a couple of really strong supplements about, you know, why do I want to attend this college or, you know, tell us about yourself outside of school, they start to see the person that everybody else sees that maybe they don't necessarily see. So a lot of my work is just helping them not only recognize the areas that they're going to need more support in college, but what are the attributes that you bring to a community that are really going to help your application shine, and set you apart from other other qualified applicants.
Hannah Choi 38:32
And that and that just really shows you the value of having allowing your student to work through that process on their own, from a really authentic place? Because then it does give them the opportunity to make those discoveries about themselves. And, and, and figure out like, oh, well, I thought this was my value, but in the process of writing this out, or it's kind of like a journal, right, that process of journaling, also, like served as my college essay, yes, supplemental writing, you know, can really open your eyes to something that you didn't necessarily realize was true.
39:08
Yeah, and for students with executive functioning, challenging, the writing piece is often the hardest part. I mean, writing requires you to use so many of your executive functions, you know, you've got a lot of balls in the air, you're juggling when you're trying to write something. So from organizing your ideas to, you know, creating meaningful and clear communication to the reader and your writing style. You know, all of that requires a lot of a lot of scaffolding for students with executive functioning deficits. So, you know, my work with kids can sometimes look like, Okay, we don't know where to start. I'm just going to ask you some questions. And as you talk about this, I'm going to write down as much verbatim you know, is I can get so that we can then take a look at you know, what do you what do you have to say or what do you sound like when someone just casually asks you this question versus when you're trying to craft the perfect hook for your A college essay. So, you know, when we take away some of those demands of, you know, organizing the ideas in their head holding them while they get them on paper, you know, thinking about how do I translate this in a way that is creative, but also clear and, you know, leaves my reader wondering, you know, that's a lot to ask students to do at one time. So we can try to again, help externalize some of that process, and really break it down. It's, I'm feel really lucky in that my training, you know, my background, my, my college degree is in professional writing. So writing has been something I've been passionate about forever, I had a ton of great training, when I worked at Landmark around the five step writing process. And, and so much of that is translated into my work with students, and all of our counselors do that, because we all have school experience. But some students, those with executive function needs really just need that extra level of support. And by kind of allowing students to, to just think about conveying the content, first, it really does open them up to recognize that they have a story to tell, yeah, a lot of them get really bogged down in, you know, they've got I can tell they've got the Thesaurus up, and they're throwing in synonyms wherever they can, but, you know, colleges really want to hear your authentic voice. So helping students to develop that authentic voice, it can take time, but it's absolutely worth it every single time.
Hannah Choi 41:23
Yeah, I can't, gosh, who knew that applying to college could be such a self discovery process. And you think it's just like, Oh, I'm just gonna find the school to go to but it you can really learn so much about yourself and what you need, both to be successful. And just to feel like you can be your authentic self.
41:45
Yeah, so many kids don't know what they want to do when they get there. And that's okay, too. I think part of it is just helping kids to recognize that this next step is going to allow them to further develop their interests and passions, and we just need to make mindful decisions about a college, it's going to give you the opportunity to do that. And also recognize that there are, you know, some programs of interest there that you might like down the line. But for so many kids with ADHD, executive functioning challenges, or any learning disability, getting through high school has been the challenge. And so the idea of entering willingly into four more years of, you know, much more intense academic setting is really scary. And so kind of helping them recognize that it doesn't have to be a home losing my train of thought here, it doesn't have to be something that's, that needs to be set in stone, and that they can really continue this process of development when they're at college. And you don't have to have all the answers now you just need to set yourself up in the best way that you can for success.
Hannah Choi 42:49
Right and finding a school that is going to be an integral, positive supportive aspect of that is, yeah. So, once once a student gets to school, do you have some recommendations for, you know, aside from what we already talked about, with taking advantage of, or getting to know that office of accommodations or Disability Resource Center, whatever it's called on the campus? You know, what are some what are some suggestions that you have for students?
Rachel Leja 43:20
So one thing I like to always suggest that students do, and this is the case of most colleges, you know, the accommodations office is not going to communicate to your professors, what your needs are, what your accommodations are. So your first order of business should be to set up meetings, whether that's during office hours, or, you know, however, your professor manages their time to go and meet with that Professor one on one. And if you've had that conversation with the accommodations office, you've already had some good practice, feel free to bring that script, they will provide for you often a physical letter or a digital letter that you will provide to the professor, use that as the basis for your conversation. But I think just being very upfront from the beginning, and this is not an opportunity to overshare This is not like let me give you my life story. And all the ways I've failed. Let me tell you, you know, I've done my homework before I got here, these are the services I'm going to avail myself of, this is what I need from you, you know, I have an accommodation for professors notes beforehand, you know, not all professors are going to be amenable to that at every college. But in my experience, if students have been proactive, and students have taken ownership and responsibility for their part of the process, teachers are much more likely teachers and professors are much more likely to lean in and support that student. And it also just takes away some of that unknown again, you're building a relationship with your professor from the very beginning. So if and when because it happens to everybody and I remember what had happened to me. Everything's going along in September and October and then like, you know, we've got a bunch of things happening all at once or exams or something like that. So when you know when the Autumn does fall out, you already have that established relationship with your professor. So I think that's incredibly important. Utilizing any sort of transitional freshman support system that exists, whether that's a seminar class, led by an advisor could be your advisor could be another instructor, just taking advantage of all of those opportunities, academically and socially, because a lot of these more structured programs will have a social element to them as well, because for students that have learning disabilities, sometimes that has impacted their social life in different ways, for whatever reason. And those are opportunities for them to, you know, get involved in campus activities to make, you know, like minded friends and peers, and also, again, just de-stigmatize this idea of students with learning disabilities on college campuses. And then I would also say, really get to know your advisor, right off the bat, even if you're going in undeclared. And you might not have the same advisor year to year I have students worried about that, well, you know, what, if they change, establishing that relationship from the start is great, because not only can you share what you need in terms of support from the college and from your advisor, but you can also talk with them talk through with them your plan, your goals, you know, what are the paths that you're considering pursuing, and just really remembering that you are spending a lot of money to go to college, and these things are built in and or, you know, they might be a fee based program, but you are, you know, you are paying for this, so make sure you get your money's worth, and recognize that it's the college's responsibility to, you know, to make good on these promises for accommodations and things like that. So really not feeling like a burden. I think that's the big problem that a lot of my students have is they've always felt like that, you know, and they've probably heard it, you know, they might have overheard a teacher saying, Oh, I have to make extra notes for Johnny again, like, God, that's such a pain. And then they start to internalize that and feel like they're a burden, and really just from the start to recognize that they are, they're taking responsibility for what they need. And they are, they're taking that burden off of other people by saying, Hey, here's what I need, here's how you can do that. Let's help each other make that happen. So that would be some advice that I would have for students. And that's easier said than done. Obviously, that takes a confident kid. Yes. But luckily, it's a practice. Yeah, lots of practice. But luckily, there are organizations like yours and others that will help students to lean in and take advantage of those. Those supports, and even I talk with students all the time, even on a more traditional campuses where those supports don't exist, or in that level of, to that level of I guess. I don't know. I don't know how to phrase that. But then like, yes, exactly more holistic, that there are ways to supplement that elsewhere. Yeah. And so you know, there might be a student who says, you know, I'm really I know that I'm going to need these things. But this is the college I've dreamed of going to since I was little, and I got in and you know, Ed, and all of that, well, then, okay, we can make that happen, as long as there's somebody there that can say, okay, there's a gap here, we need to fill it somehow. How can we find that? Yeah,
Hannah Choi 48:08
well, I mean, I can say from the other side of that, all that preparation, and all those steps that you just mentioned, it truly, truly, truly does make a difference. I mean, I have had clients who, I had one client who was very, very sick during finals week, she had, she had established a really great relationship with one of her professors. And so the professor was super, super lenient with her, and, uh, you know, and made accommodations for her and allowed her to, I can't remember what that you know, how they actually did it, but she was able to do that final in such a way that, you know, worked around her being really ill, but also, you know, within the timeline that the teacher needed to follow as well. So, I mean, it just makes such a huge difference. And I see it in the students who they do feel like they're a burden, or they feel like these college professors are not human, they're sort of like this, like these magical beings and just anyone listening, your professors are human, and they appreciate a heads up, and they appreciate you expressing to them what you need, and saying, and this is how I would like to take advantage of it. Don't leave it up to them to come up with a solution. Tell them this is what I need. And this is how I plan to take advantage of it. What can I do to make your life easier?
Rachel Leja 49:34
Right and that's, that's huge, because I think students, students often are used to the adults taking care of it in high school, ya know, it's it goes, goes on to all your teachers read the site up, let's do these things for the student. And at the college level, I think, you know, just showing them that you understand that there is an additional, you know, there's additional work involved for the professor, but ultimately it's going to be you know, little In comparison to the work that that student would have to do to overcome those challenges on their own and, and I think that it's important to remember that there are going to be some colleges that are more competitive or most competitive, that are not going to be able to offer students this level of individualized attention this level of accommodation. And that's, again, why it's so important to visit these these offices before you before you apply to schools. And, and even if you don't have a chance to visit before you've applied, when you get those acceptances, it's certainly an appropriate time to say I'd love to set up a meeting with you and talk about what this would look like. And you know, that can be done via zoom. We are all very zoom savvy now. So if that college is further away, you know, don't wait until you're on campus, I would say no matter what, get that ball rolling proactively.
Hannah Choi 50:48
And if you do, wait till you're on campus, please don't wait until midterms. Right?
Rachel Leja 50:52
Right. Yeah. If it's the second week, and you haven't met anyone yet, put it on here. Yeah, you've got to really lean in. Yeah, it's not like high school where the first two weeks are just like figuring out your schedule. Getting to know Yeah, they jump right. And hammer drops. Pretty quickly.
Hannah Choi 51:07
Yeah, I have a client who goes to a school where they're on seven week terms. And he has a quiz on the second day of class. Yeah, sounds about right. Yeah, he has readings due on the first day of class.
Rachel Leja 51:19
And that's a whole nother part of it for students is they've never experienced a syllabus and you know, self guided workflow, if you will, you know, recognizing that, it's, that's not the reading you're gonna do in class that day, that's the reading that's due that day, and you're expected to do beforehand, a lot of education around like how to read a syllabus, you know, and that's part of what those folks in the accommodations offices and those executive functioning coaches can do for students is, let's sit down. And let's look at each one of your syllabi for this semester, let's identify, you know, those, you know, those stress points where there's going to be a lot of things do at once, let's get ahead of that. Because, you know, extended time and college on assignments isn't a thing. It's called you start earlier. So, you know, really understanding how do i budget my time and plan? And also how do I create a course load that's going to allow me to kind of balance my energy. So it's not too reading heavy to writing focus, really having a sense of, of how those kind of Gen Ed requirements might, might pull on you as a student with those challenges.
Hannah Choi 52:23
Yeah, and that's actually something I meant to mention earlier is when you are connected with your advisor, and the accommodations office, they know teachers, and they know, you know, who might be a good fit for your particular brain. And then also just rate my professor.com make absolutely advantage of those things. Don't try not to base your schedule, or your classes on the schedule, like Yeah, okay, we all want an ideal schedule, right. But let's also take a look at, you know, the professor makes a huge difference.
Rachel Leja 52:53
And the ideal schedule for a teenager might feel like classes that start at three in the afternoon. But that is, you know, as I quickly found out as a student, you know, if you have classes that go till, you know, 7:30/8:00 at night, and then you still have work to do in your next class, the next morning is at whatever time you know, being really mindful to of your of your habits, your sleep schedule, what you need in terms of sleep and what you need in terms of downtime to because so much of what students don't consider when they're thinking about colleges is like, how I will have free time, right, what will I do with it? And how can I spend it in a way that's both productive when it needs to be but also, you know, refreshing and recuperative? It needs to be too.
Hannah Choi 53:35
Yeah, yep. So I think the the message that keeps running through this is start early on anything. Yeah, everything. Everything just start earlier than you think you need to build your independence, build some autonomy and use your external resources. Ask for help. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. Well, so what are you? What are you excited about in your, in maybe in your work or in your personal life? What's something that you're looking forward to?
Rachel Leja 54:09
Yeah. So professionally, I'm really looking forward to getting these early applications in.
Hannah Choi 54:14
Yeah.
Rachel Leja 54:16
A lot of my kids yeah, I tell them you this is the time of year when I'm, I have sleepless nights for you guys. So submitting those applications. I'm really excited about that. And having my kids get a little bit of a break too, because it's really stressful and it's hard to hard to log on with, you know, kids on Zoom and you can see it on their faces as they are ready to be done. So I'm excited for that for me and cool them. And personally, I'm a huge Halloween fan. Coming nice. I've continued to add decorations outside I'm really hoping I get more trick or treaters this year. We had a really great year the year before last we give up the full size candy bars around I love that and last year we had three two or treaters. So if you live in my neighborhood Yeah. Come by come by our house and it'll be all lit up and we've got candy for you. That's
Hannah Choi 55:07
Awesome. Yeah. And so if someone is interested in learning more about Macmillan and you in particular, how can how can they reach out to you?
Rachel Leja 55:17
Sure. So you can check out our website, that's Mcmillan. education.com. You can find out more information about our process our work with students of all ages, really. And you can find out any information about all of our counselors, we all have a little kind of bio and some some blogs on there too, for people to check out. And you can also take a look via our website, our own podcasts, we have wise advice for educational planning. And there are some episodes there that are geared towards kind of the college process. There's a great one on the essays and good ones on standardized testing. So that's another good free resource for families as well.
Hannah Choi 55:55
Thank you so much, Rachel, in good luck with Halloween. I hope you get more people!
Rachel Leja 55:58
Thank you. Thank you. Me too. I might put a sign out like Don't Don't forget about us. Yeah, we have full size full size candy bars. Yeah, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Hannah Choi 56:08
All right. Thank you. Thank you, Hannah. And that's our show for today. I hope you learned something I know I did. And in two or so years when my daughter starts her college search, wait a second. Oh my gosh, is it really only two years from now? Am I that old? Okay. Anyway, hopefully I'll be better prepared to support her. Do you know someone who is also that old? I mean, whose kiddo is also about to apply to college? Please share this episode with them. We will love you for it. And if you have any questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if I said as I said in the beginning, if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can help us out by giving us a boost with a five-star rating. And you can sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast And I realized I do not give our podcast behind-the-scenes people enough airtime. So here's a million thanks to Sean Potts, our editor and producer Justice Abbott, a marketing specialist and truly our everyday marketing hero and Angela Malloy, who helped connect me with Don McMillan and Rachel Leja at Macmillan education. Thanks for listening!
In this week's episode, I invited Eric Tivers, host of the popular ADHD ReWired Podcast, to join me on Focus Forward and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community and discussed some aspects of living a strategy-based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickle ball scoring, classic ADHD tangent. Stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric and about the high-quality services he and his team provide.
Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis, and despite the time that has passed, the insights remain relevant. I'm delighted it's now October and ADHD awareness month so we can share this conversation with you all!
Here are the show notes from today's episode:
Hannah's guest appearance on ADHD ReWired
ADHD ReWired Podcast
2023 Annual International Conference on ADHD
ADHD Support Group Search
My podcast episode with Dr. Jan Willer
Beyond BookSmart
How to Keep Score in Pickle Ball
How to Keep Score in Tennis
ADHD Resources
Adult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)
CHADD
Beyond BookSmart’s ADHD Success Kit
How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis
Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHD
Women’s ADHD Wellbeing Podcast
Contact us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
Hannah Choi 00:18
Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to share a correction from our last episode, I mistakenly said that I had an appointment with a psychiatrist. Jan, who I interviewed caught this when she listened to the episode and helped me realize that I actually have an appointment with a licensed professional clinician, who in Connecticut anyway is qualified to evaluate people for ADHD. I don't know about you, but I find all of these titles quite confusing. But I am so glad I get to learn all about this and share it with you. Anyway, I wanted to share again what Jan taught me that psychiatrists are great for testing people with more complex brain issues. And people with master's levels degrees, who are qualified can diagnose ADHD even without a full neuro Psych Exam. I'm still going to pursue the test. Because you know me brain nerd. I'm super curious to learn more about how my own brain works. But please know that you absolutely don't have to do the same to get the help you need.
Hannah Choi 01:22
Okay, so it is still ADHD Awareness Month and I've got some exciting news to share. I will be attending the upcoming 2023 annual International Conference on ADHD in Baltimore at the end of November. I am headed there with three of my wise colleagues, Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, and Wendy Craven. We will have a Beyond Booksmart table in the exhibit hall. And we'll also be learning from some of the presenters who will be sharing their knowledge and experience with attendees. If you want to find out more about the conference, check out the show notes. There's a link down there.
Hannah Choi 02:00
And besides being all about ADHD, this conference has a special connection to today's guest. We are back with another ADHD themed episode for this month of ADHD awareness. At the end of the summer, I had the absolute pleasure of being a guest on the ADHD rewired podcast. It is hosted by the very funny and very smart Eric Tivers. We talked about finding success in college when you struggle with executive functioning skills. And when we spoke not only did Eric convince me that I had to go to the ADHD conference, okay, wait a second, convinced his way too strong of a verb. He just kind of mentioned it with enthusiasm. And of course, I was totally sold. So let's try that again. Not only did Eric inspire me to go to the conference, but he also shared that he'll be presenting at it on the topic of technology. Bonus. Okay, so, back to the meat of this episode, I invited Eric to join me on Focus Forward, and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We also explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community. So keep listening to hear Eric share about the coaching groups and the adult study halls he offers to provide that essential support and community we discuss some aspects of living a strategy based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickleball scoring, you know, classic ADHD tangent, and stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric, and about the high quality services that he and his coaches provide. I really encourage you to check out the good work that he and his team are doing. You can also find links to his website in the show notes. Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis. And despite the time that has passed, the insights do remain relevant. I am delighted that it is now October so we can share this conversation with you all. Okay, on to the show.
Hannah Choi 04:12
So, hi, everyone. I'm here today with Eric Tivers, who is the host of the ADHD ReWired podcast and you do a lot of other stuff. So could you introduce yourself and maybe share what you do and short a brief explanation of how you even got to where you are today?
Eric Tivers 04:36
Sure, so I'll thank you for having me on. My name is Eric Tivers. I host the ADHD ReWired podcast. And, you know, we, I am a licensed clinical social worker. And I started ADHD ReWired back in 2014. When it was, you know, I didn't even know what I was really going to be dealing with it. It was sort of like I I know I have thoughts and ideas that I want to share. I don't really like to write, it's a struggle for me. So like podcast, and like when I was in grad school, I was really actually struggling with my ADHD. And I discovered podcasts around that. And I discovered this old, like, not even good quality podcast, but it was like raw and authentic. And I wanted you that one day, like that kind of stuck with me for a long time. Yeah. And, and then I mentioned, we launched the podcast, it first started as just a solo show. And then I sort of stumbled into an interview. And I was like, Oh, I like this way better. Because, you know, it's as trained as a therapist, like, I'm just a curious conversationalist, I guess. And it was, I just really enjoyed helping other people tell their story. And then sort of through that, I launched my first online coaching group and, and that wasn't even like a grand plan, either. That was sort of a, I had this idea. And it was, the idea came out of actually, like I was in therapy at the time. And I would like go to try to get to my therapist office, like about 20 minutes early, just so I can do the homework that I supposed to be working on. This is silly. You know, it's like I'm my clients, this whole working man, wish there something working just to have like, regular like check ins kind of touch points, just to kind of keep me on track throughout my week. And so I started looking online for stuff and like, there was nothing. There was no one doing anything like that. So I created that. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it was like, where it is now to where it was when I first heard the very first version of it. I don't know if you ever heard the idea that a few are not kind of you don't cringe at your like earliest stuff you put out there, like you waited too long to start. I definitely cringe at some of the first stuff like we did, like, we didn't even have like a concrete schedule for the first season of coaching group that we did. Like it was like every week, like alright, what's good for me, I Oh, my God, that's an awful idea.
Hannah Choi 06:55
But you know what I love I love that, that you cannot wait for perfection to start, just just start and then it will evolve into what it's supposed to be.
Eric Tivers 07:06
Yeah, so you know, now here I am. You know, we're recording this on May 5, I'll happy Cinco Demayo. And, you know, we're, I think I, we just released episode 480 something. And you know, and I have experimented, and I've done different iterations of stuff on the podcast, and it's been super fun. You know, and there's no way I would have been doing a podcast from 10 years. Now, if I didn't love what I'm doing, right. It's amazing. So these coaching groups, they just kind of they almost kind of life of themselves, like they know, they were feeling really fast. And then I started doing two coaching groups at a time the manager didn't three coaching groups at a time. And then I was burning out a little bit. So I scaled back at two. I closed my clinical practice to focus exclusively on the coaching groups. So we've had over 1000 people go through the program. We're on our, we just started at registration for our summer season will be our 33rd season.
Hannah Choi 08:04
Oh my goodness, congratulations.
Eric Tivers 08:07
Thank you. Thanks.
Hannah Choi 08:07
That is awesome.
Eric Tivers 08:08
Yeah. And so we've been we've been growing, I got a couple of coaches that work with me, and, you know, learning all the kind of the leadership stuff there, which is, it's way harder than I ever imagined it would be like, I gotta figure it out, then I'm like, no, no, no more to learn. So it's it is like, I'm going back for seconds and thirds of humble pie on a regular basis.
Hannah Choi 08:33
I have a colleague who always says, always learning and growing and I love that. That's so true.
Eric Tivers 08:39
Yeah. I mean, as soon as you think you, you know everything, then that's where you get into trouble.
Hannah Choi 08:43
Yes, that's right. So I love thinking about all the people in your that that you have encountered that are now probably so much more confident, and so much more sure of their own abilities, despite their executive function challenges, despite their ADHD, so congrats to you and everyone that works for you for creating that space for people.
Eric Tivers 09:10
Well, I definitely didn't do it. I'm I mean, I've had lots of lots of help lots of other people who do a lot of stuff sort of on the back end. And, you know, we have we have a very active alumni community too. And a lot of our a lot we have. And when I open up the alumni community, it's because people will kept like re signing up for the group to do it again. And and so people were asking, was there anything else we could do after this? And like, maybe, and so maybe three or four years ago, we started this, the alumni community, and it's been wonderful. We have a bunch of different of our alumni who are leading peer based sessions each week. And so it's really cool because it's like, I tell people, one of the best things I do for my own ADHD is this work because it kind of makes me think about it all the time after like, I can't go into autopilot. I think a lot of other people feel that same way. It's like when they and sort of give back and be in some kind of leadership role in the community, it helps them stay on top of their own stuff.
Hannah Choi 10:06
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I find that as a coach, you know, just talking about it all the time with my clients, and, you know, trying to think of news, like help them come up with new solutions for whatever challenge that they're dealing with it, that kind of thinking becomes a habit, and then you just kind of do it for yourself or, yeah.
Eric Tivers 10:27
So yeah, so that's kind of when we have our we have an adult study hall, it's a co-working community, which, so that's, that's another thing we have been working on. So yeah, lots of lots of things in the fire and, you know, experimenting with different things. And you know, one thing that is that is constant is that things are always changing.
Hannah Choi 10:47
So something that you and I had talked about before we recorded was the idea of community. And I really think that, that you are creating that community with the work that you're doing. And I just, we just dropped an episode the other day, I interviewed two social workers and their coach. And we talked a lot about how important validation is, and how important finding your flock is. And so I'm sure through that experience, you are creating that in a way for people.
Eric Tivers 11:28
Yeah, you know, one of the things because people always ask me, like, Well, how do I know if I should do group? Or if I should do one on one? And, you know, I would I, I tell them, I have a strong bias towards group. Because there's, you know, I and I've done intensive one on one coaching with people. And, you know, I tell them that I'm kind of a sucker for, like, positive reinforcement. And when I see people doing like, like, profoundly better. To me, that's like, my big shiny gold star. Right. And with group there's, there's just something that's, you know, it's funny, I'm very science based person, but like, it's, I think it's just magic, what happens in group, I, because it is, you know, we see ourselves in each other, and we are so much more generous and compassionate towards others, others are having the same struggles. And then, you know, when we see that kind of what they're doing and where they're coming out, they're they're doing all these great things. And yet, they're being so hard on themselves. And then there's that recognition of like, oh, wait a minute. Like you have these these mirrors that are reflecting you, back to you. Right, except now there's no judgment being
Hannah Choi 12:35
Yeah. That's awesome. That's powerful.
Eric Tivers 12:39
that that me too, is super, super powerful. Yeah, and I always tell people to I'm like, I just want to be really clear before we, there's any, like, ideas, that I have all my stuff together, because I don't, I am working on all the same stuff, too. I mean, being consistent, you know, it's like, I get the planning and then I stop looking at the planning, right, I gotta come back to it. And so really, what I think what community has really done one of the strengths of, of community is resilience. It is a sort of a resilience incubator. Yeah, because we're kind of be inconsistent with ADHD, it's just, you know, it's and I'm not saying that, like, it's just is what it is, you know, but it's part of it's part of ADHD, the consistency. So what we can do is skip the part, when we've fallen off what we want to be doing, we can skip the part of beating ourselves up, and we can reach out for help as a ham struggling here. Yeah, well, we get when we can say it, when we can speak the thing that we're instead of like being silenced in silent and shame. I mean, that because that that shame piece it is it's significant, it is really significant. And when you're in a community of people who get it because they also live it and your non judgmental support. It's, it's really profound, you know, it's, it's kind of like a rabid onion pillar, right? If people come in for white, like, I just want to get my planning and time management stuff figured out. It's like, work on that. But keep keep an open mind, because there's a way like, you can't not deal with the shame stuff when you're dealing planning. And anything that at the planning of time management when you have ADHD. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's not just the planning. It's not just the time now.
Hannah Choi 14:24
Yeah, yeah. And that's something that we talked about in that conversation was how tightly wrapped our executive function skills are with our emotions, and how and how the context in which we are talking about is how coaching sessions can can often sometimes feel like therapy, and it's because you cannot, you just can't separate that. And so being able to, like you said, you have that mirror to reflect yourself back to yourself without that judgment is such a nice way of of dealing with those emotions. I'm not sure how to explain what I'm saying. And I'm sure you know what I mean. I just I love that. I love that.
Eric Tivers 15:07
Well, your executive, its executive functions are self. It's about self regulation. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 15:13
Right. Yeah. And it comes down to it, you know,
Eric Tivers 15:16
I mean, it's, it's the self regulatory stuff that we have intentions of doing. And that impacts, like the things we're trying to do. I think like, like Russell Barkley talks about an executive functions, any goal oriented behavior that you sort of put out to the world, and it comes back to you in some way. So it's like, even if it's like, it's as simple as getting dressed, right? Like, your intention is, you gotta get up before you get dressed. Right. And, yeah, if you are successful with it, you got clothes on your body, right?
Hannah Choi 15:42
That's so funny. That's the example I always use. Like, you have some executive function skills, because you're wearing clothes.
Eric Tivers 15:49
Yeah, you know, are looking at like emotional self regulation, if you are employed. And you think that your boss is a jerk, and you let them know that and your goal is to get a promotion. And instead, you're actually shutting the door, because you can get yourself fired because you mouthed off to your boss, right? That ability to take a deep breath when you're in that that space. Like, you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard to do. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 16:15
Well, I, I haven't shared this yet on the podcast, but by the time people listen to this episode, they will know, I just got diagnosed with ADHD, which I am so happy about, because it has answered everything. And I'm sure this is the story that you've heard from so many people. And all of that has, over the past few weeks when I've been thinking about it, and I feel like I am calming my, I'm like giving my self a hug my past self. And like, you know, just and so and, and that whole shame piece. And the whole inner narrative really comes up a lot for people with ADHD or for people just who are struggling with anything, really, because there's this sort of this message that we receive from society that we're supposed to be just like, amazingly successful at everything all the time. And you have to like, especially as a mom, like you're supposed to do all these things plus, like have a really beautiful Instagram feed and be like selling cookies on the side or whatever.
Eric Tivers 17:24
And make it all look easy, right?
Hannah Choi 17:26
Yeah, yeah. And it's just not easy for anybody. And if you're additionally, you know, dealing with executive function challenges, if, because of any diagnosis, and it just makes everything a lot harder. So, yeah, so being able to being able to talk about it and to, and to address it in a really safe and encouraging and warm way is is really wonderful. So I'm really glad you're able to provide that for to your, to your coaching groups.
Eric Tivers 18:02
It's so it's so interesting. First of all, congratulations on this.
Hannah Choi 18:05
Thanks. Thank you.
Eric Tivers 18:07
And you're in it's so interesting, too, because so many people who have such a wide variety of responses to Yeah, that diagnosis. And it's, it's really kind of striking, like how many people I've spoken with throughout the years who who've been professionals in the ADHD space, didn't think they had ADHD going. And then like, years and years later realize, I actually do, and it's so funny, because I have always like, was like, just thought that was a really like, Ha, what what would that be like to experience that? And I see it, because right now, and I have not gotten an official diagnosis. But I did recently take an online evaluation for autism. And I had a highly what I didn't mention is that part of my clinical practice, before I closed my clinical practice was specializing in autism. Okay, and so, you know, my, I have a 11 year old son who has has autism and ADHD. So it's like, you know, I used to speak and present on this stuff. And yeah, you know, in part of, and I was, I was mentioning at the top of the show, about, like, how, you know, leadership has been serving me some humble pie. And it because part of it's like some of the social stuff that I think I've been Miss reading and I'm like, right, and so like, I'm always someone who's always trying to do better. And it's like, if, and so what I'm sort of seeing a certain pattern, I'm like, okay, like, this is something other than like this than ADHD, like, I really tried to cultivate a culture of feedback in my community, with my team and yeah, I've gotten some little some hearts of your feedback, but like, thank goodness that some of my team has felt safe to Yeah, sure that I know. You know, it's sort of that that the only way I can sort of think about it as being like the the realization that maybe sometime Sam's coming off as an accidental a hole. And I'm just like, Oh my God. Yeah. And so it's been very humbling, recently something I'm still kind of working through. But you know, it's like, yeah, when we gain that self awareness, that that like, entry into a new space of awareness, that hurts like it. It is it is, you know, but I, you know, from the time I got diagnosed when I was 20 years old, I've been like, I'm this this sort of mission to keep uncovering blind spots. Because it's like, and I'm just understanding the concept that we all have blind spots. Yeah, right. Yeah. And knowing that, you know, that sort of like idea like, so if someone is not self aware, how do they know?
Hannah Choi 20:49
Yeah, I felt, and I don't know, maybe you feel this? It's almost freeing. I, as soon as she told me, you know, the results, I just felt this like, huge. Ah, okay. Now, I get it. And like you said, you're discovering things over the time, I have also been discovering things. And it's like, oh, that's why that happened. That's why I did that. And then I'm able to release myself of that burden of shame that I have been carrying for feeling so bad about that thing, whatever it was. It's kind of been like Christmas the past few weeks, I've just like opening up all these things. I hope you experienced the same thing with the air or maybe you already are with that.
Eric Tivers 21:40
Oh, I think I'll get I'll yeah, it's definitely a, it's like, hot, it's definitely been a little bit of a, it's like, I don't know, it's not like shocking, but it's, it's, I don't know, it's like, it's just humbling, it's what it's telling me where I can describe to describe her. And I was like, this feels very, very humbling. And just interesting. You know, it's, it's, if we are on, if we have that growth mindset, and we are open to feedback, you know, it's, I always tell people helping you to think that, like, the growth journey is a fun one. No, no, no, this is hard. This is our critical timeout for a little while. I tell you, you know, when anytime I have had big discoveries about myself, it has led to huge growth. And so I've always been open to trying to find those blind spots, even though I know it's gonna suck emotionally for a while. It has never, I've never not been grateful, in hindsight, for those discoveries.
Hannah Choi 22:47
And I see that a lot in my clients too. And I work with a lot of college kids and a lot, and what I've noticed is that a lot of them are still learning to be self aware. And they're still discovering aspects of themselves that they didn't know. And, and, and executive function coaching is such a great place to explore that it's such like a nice, safe, safe place, and so many different things that we can kind of test out and figure out and, and so much of my coaching comes back to asking why and so much of answering the question, why is becoming is by, you have to become self aware to answer that, why. And it can be really hard, like you said, it can be really hard to to admit, whatever the Y is, and, but that is the key to open the door to allow for that growth. And to, to be able to let go of whatever that shame is that you've been carrying around because of that challenge or limitation.
Eric Tivers 23:45
Yeah, it's I always tell my group members, like if you're not uncomfortable, like, lean in more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, you're not, you don't have to be sort of in that state forever. And it doesn't last forever. It's, it's sort of it's episodic, you know, it's, you go through periods, and then you, you know, at least for me, it's like, figuring these things out. And then spending years on on like, honing in the skills and the pieces around that, that I need to and then it's like, as you develop mastery around different things, then you kind of the process repeats like, oh, new discoveries. Oh, again,
Hannah Choi 24:21
Yep. Or, Oh, I just got I found mastery, but I'm sliding because of whatever and now let's discover a new way to get myself back back in the game and and to be okay with that.
Eric Tivers 24:32
You know, it's funny too, because, like, one of the things that that I'm that I'm actually trying to work on now is being treated less sarcastic in different interactions. I guess it's funny, I was I was talking to my partner yesterday about this cuz she's been kind of helping me through through some of this. And like, when she kind of gave me this feedback about my sarcasm, and I found myself wanting to hold on to like, like gripping. But start I love beings. It's funny. Yeah, but not it's not always received as well as I think you think it is like, yeah. All right. I'm gonna sit with that for a while. And you know, it's it's having that courage to ask others like, hey, like, is this been your experience that like in our conversations? Yeah, so it's having those those courageous conversations. I mean, that's really what it's, it's about. Yep.
Hannah Choi 25:21
And I don't know if you've experienced this as hosting a podcast, but I feel like I experienced that every time I listened to a new episode or listened to anything that I've ever recorded. Like I, I go through that, like, Oh, God, why did I say that? Or why didn't I say it this other way? And then But then I always go back and say no, okay, now you have a chance to, to learn from that and to grow from that and to step even more outside your comfort zone and to challenge maybe challenge what you how you did something before and yeah,
Eric Tivers 25:55
Yeah, you know, to me, like, I love absurdity. Like, that's just like, absurdity is my sense of humor. Or it was probably where I like sarcasm, but I just, you know, I'm learning to be more careful about that. But like, when I think about just like, brains are funny, glitchy and they are, like, you know, if we can, instead of being so hard on ourselves, like, why can't I do this, like, drive, we were talking before I hit record, like, I love playing pickleball I cannot remember the score during the game. For me, it is like to be in like one of those like baseball pitch counters and just like holding my other hand, but
Hannah Choi 26:35
then you'd have to remember to use it.
Eric Tivers 26:40
And I always feel really at home when everybody else I'm playing with also can't remember the score. I'm just like, I think it'll be like, Well, what's your excuse? Because, you know, one of the younger ones there? And it's like, yeah, it's called ADHD.
Hannah Choi 26:55
It's not my age. Yeah. Oh, man.
Eric Tivers 26:58
It's it's funny. I'll, I'll say the score my head over and over again. And then one for one moment, I'm thinking about something else. And I forgot score.
Hannah Choi 27:05
Oh, my God, I feel you I just like relate to that so much. I just started, I started playing tennis and this a year ago, with my sister who's actually quite good at keeping track of the score, and I'm always like, I think I just need to play with her all the time. I'm the same way. I'm like, Alright, I got it. And I don't I actually and I don't even know which side of the court I'm supposed to be on right now.
Eric Tivers 27:31
With tennis is like the funny scoring it like, right?
Hannah Choi 27:34
Yeah, it's so weird. Yeah. And then if you play doubles in pickleball, it's even weirder, because then you have to say, like, if you're serving first or second, right?
Eric Tivers 27:44
Well, I typically only played doubles have, like, I don't, I don't want singles. I mean, it's a it's an amazing workout to play singles, because it's like, oh, my god, she has to be everywhere. I like doubles. So I don't know. It's but you're right. Because you have to say which, which, which serve it is.
Hannah Choi 28:01
It's too confusing for me. And we just play we just hit the ball around and be like, Yeah, we both won. Or we all win. Yeah, Everyone's a winner. Yes. What were we talking about? Speaking of forgetting things.
Eric Tivers 28:22
Brains are funny.
Hannah Choi 28:23
Brains. Brains. Yes, I love the brain. And I love helping people understand why they do what they do, because of their brains. And helping people learn strategies that can help them use their brains to their advantage instead of being sort of taken over by their brain. So like a lot of that emotional regulation is a huge part of my coaching. And, and I love just learning about it and teaching people about it.
Eric Tivers 28:54
You know, within that frame. There's this idea that I that I talk about my groups that, you know, if you're wanting to be successful, and you have ADHD, you have to learn how to bend the world to you. Because like, the world is not bending the other way. Like the world's not reaching out to say, Hey, how can I accommodate you? Right? Like, yeah, we get all this paperwork is really hard. Like, it's like planning this, you get it with paper, and it's, you know, your teacher tells you about it, you know, in the first day class never mentioned it again, like, right, we have to develop these strategies to really scaffold the things that we need around us. And be you being okay with that too. And that's such an important and I think for a lot of people a really hard thing because, you know, I always said who I am, we are not trying to get you to learn how to be normal. Like that is not our goal. Right? Like that is like that is our goal to make sure that that like you don't want that to be your goal, because that is like that will be a goal that you'll you're not going to achieve
Hannah Choi 29:57
And we want to preserve your uniqueness, right. Yes. See?
Eric Tivers 30:00
Yes, yeah, you know, so whatever, like, whatever you need, like, just kind of figure out how to, you know how to advocate for it, how to ask for it, you know, when something that kind of informs a lot of the work that I do, and even my personal life was based on some work that I did when I was in grad school. And so it was around my dissertation, and it was looking at, what does it take for students with invisible disabilities and ADHD, learning disabilities, dyslexia, etc, to be successful in adulthood. And what they found is that it is not the diagnosis that is preventing people from having the same sort of measures of success compared to their peers, it's if they have high levels of self awareness, if they have self determination, and good self advocacy skills, like, if you look just at the sort of the outcome measures, whether it's income, educational attainment, just overall life satisfaction, you got those three things, when you have ADHD or something like it, right, you're going to do just as well, like, that doesn't mean that things aren't going to be sometimes harder, like they will be. But like, You got to be willing to do the stuff and make sure that you love what you're doing. Because that's another thing our ADHD, it's like, we don't really have that, that, you know, the luxury of doing work that we don't love
Hannah Choi 31:22
Right. Yes, yes. It's very hard to keep that going.
Eric Tivers 31:27
Right, right. I know for a little while, but you
Hannah Choi 31:31
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So much of that, that those those aspects that you named are part of figuring out, or you it's, you can find those when you have that opportunity to learn about yourself and ask those questions and discover the different aspects of you that yeah, they don't fit into this system of the world that is out there. And that, but then, like you said, That's okay. So let's figure out how we can just just embrace that and use it as a as a benefit and use it as a, you know, something that can take you to places that you might not go if you're more of a linear thinker, or if you are more of like a round peg in a round hole?
Eric Tivers 32:19
For sure, for sure. Yeah. Cuz it's, you know, managing life and you have ADHD requires coming up with 1001 Little strategies, like it really is. It's, and it's this idea of living a strategy based life. Right? It's like, when we were kids, okay, I'm struggling with that, right? What can I do? That didn't work? What else could I do? Alright, that worked for like two weeks, that's not working anymore. What else can I try? Right? It's, and if we can stay open to, you know, just being curious of what works, what's getting in the way, we'll get there. Maybe it's, I think one of the things that I think is helpful for us to remember with ADHD is that, you know, we want progress yesterday. You know, stick with it, like, you look back and serious of yours, and you'll see the growth. But if you're just like in the moment, like week to week, it can be really hard to see the growth. And if you're really doing the work, it can actually sometimes feel like you're doing worse, when you're actually doing better. And that's called a self awareness that is growing self awareness makes us feel like we're doing worse, even though we're not
Hannah Choi 33:21
Yeah, you know, something, how you mentioned this strategy based life. I remember when I told my colleague who is also the, the editor and producer of our podcast, Sean, who also has ADHD was diagnosed when he was 12. He said to me, I'm so surprised to hear that you have ADHD and I and he said, You have such good executive function skills. And that and I said, I think it's because I am exhausted from using strategies all the time. Like, all the time, I keep my shit together, for the most part, because I am constantly using strategies, which is, frankly, completely exhausting. And, and, and so often I find myself or have found myself saying, why can't I just do this without fill in the blank? And, and now I can say it's okay. At least you're doing it with that thing. You're not just like not doing it?
Eric Tivers 34:21
Yeah, and you know, and one of the things too, is is like, find me strategies, but then you got to adopt them are destined for to make them work for you. Yeah, you know, like, in our in our groups, we you know, we have a lot of these frameworks, but we really try to explain this as they think about everything we're sharing as sort of this is the sandbox for you, right? Like play with it and make it your own like you have this this worksheet for planning like you don't like the way that it's laid out, like, recreate it for yourself. So it like resonates with your brain, like break what we're doing. If we're telling you something that is different than what you do You want to do what's currently working? Ignore what we're telling you. Don't try to fix what's not broken. Yes, right.
Hannah Choi 35:07
Yes. Well, this has been so great talking to you. And, and thank you so much. You're actually the first person that I've told outside of my family, that I have ADHD but and it's not because of a shame place. It's just because I haven't. I haven't really said ADHD episode yet. And so I just kind of saving it for that. But it it's talking about community and, and, and hearing yourself in someone else's voice. I experienced the benefit of that today in our conversations. So I just like I said before, I'll say it again, I'm so glad that you're creating those spaces for people because I know that it's highly needed.
Eric Tivers 35:54
Well, congratulations. And it's it's it's super exciting. You know, it's it's just knowing that we have like, a hole that just opens up so many, like opportunities and things to explore that we can learn about when we have like, Oh, this is why we're, we're struggling, you know, yeah, great. Thanks. Because it really, you know, out of all out of all the disorders, really, I mean, it's, I think ADHD is one of the most manageable, but it could also be one of the biggest, you know, pains in the butt if you're not managing it, right, because it will remind you on a regular basis, you have ADHD, if you're not like paying attention to it. I tell people that we don't have the luxury to do left on autopilot. Like we will crash and burn. And if we think yeah, do like autopilot.
Hannah Choi 36:40
Yeah, I'm so glad there's that the stigma around being neurodivergent is really starting to break down and that more people are having these really important conversations. And I'm so glad that you have so many listeners, and I hope I start to have more listeners, because these conversations people need to hear them, they need to get that validation that it's okay to struggle. And there are there are options, there are questions that you can ask and answers that you can find.
Eric Tivers 37:12
You don't need to struggle alone, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 37:15
So could you share your contact information and where people can find you, because I'm sure people are going to be really curious about learning more.
Eric Tivers 37:24
Yeah, best best place to reach me would be at my website, which is ADHDrewired.com. Since you are listening to this, you listen to podcasts. So you can also use whatever podcast app you're listening to and search for ADHD ReWired. And, you know, when we have our coaching groups, you know, our, I don't know, when this episode's gonna come out, but we we do them a couple times a year. In the end, they're intense, if you're looking for, like, if you're someone who does, well look almost like that boot camp style of like, Alright, I'm going to full immersion. Like, it's, you know, it's like a six to sometimes up to 10 hours a week, we do three sessions a week, you have a four person accountability team that you meet with twice a week where you do masterminds with, and then all the other stuff that we have available in our alumni community. So it's really designed to not just help you learn some skills, but to really, it's about, you know, the shame, resilience is about getting self awareness, and then, you know, having a safe space to practice learning skills.
Hannah Choi 38:23
I love that. And I have to put a plug in for your podcast. It's great. It's I love, I listened to a bunch of episodes and, and they're long, but the conversations are so interesting, and so relatable. And I love how many wide variety of topics you have. There's kind of something for everybody in there.
Eric Tivers 38:43
Well, thank you for doing the work that you're doing. This is wonderful. And thanks for letting me be on the other side of the mic. It's fun.
Hannah Choi 38:49
Yeah. Great. And I look forward to being on the other side of the mic with you as well, later on in the year.
Eric Tivers 38:57
Whenever that's on the calendar, whatever. Right now, so we have no idea when.
Hannah Choi 39:03
We have no idea. But it's happening. We know that yes, yes. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Eric. Take care. You too.
Hannah Choi 39:12
And that is our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And if you know anyone who might relate to any of it, please share this episode with them. I hope we get to see you at the ADHD Conference in Baltimore. If you go stop by our booth number 112 in the exhibit hall and say hi. Until then you can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we will share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening
Hey, we're back! I'm so excited to bring you the first of many new episodes in our 3rd season of Focus Forward. Considering it's ADHD awareness month, I wanted to explore something relating ADHD that we hadn't done before. In this week's episode, we're tackling adult ADHD and the life-changing journey of getting a late diagnosis. This episode is particularly special for me as it documents my own personal journey in discovering that I have ADHD (in real time!) This journey of revelation began with a conversation I had last year with Dr. Jan Willer - a clinical psychologist who specializes in supporting those with ADHD. After our conversation, I began to seriously suspect that I, too, might have ADHD. In this episode, we'll explore the difficult question of "do I have ADHD or not?" and the impact that getting a diagnosis can have on our life and sense of self. I hope you enjoy this one!
Resources Related to this Episode
Dr. Jan Willer’s Resources
Jan’s books on Amazon
ADHD Resources
Adult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)
CHADD
Adult ADHD Toolkit
Beyond BookSmart’s ADHD Success Kit
How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis
Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHD
Women’s ADHD Wellbeing Podcast
Contact us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
Hannah Choi 00:18
We are back after our summer break. Yay. Today's episode is super special. Not only is it our first episode of season three, but it is also our 30th episode. I know there are podcasts out there with hundreds and hundreds of episodes. But I just have to say I'm super proud of this achievement, and I'm so glad you're here with me today to celebrate. On top of all that fun stuff is also ADHD Awareness Month. In today's episode, I'm going to share some of my own ADHD story which all started when someone very close to me was diagnosed a couple of years ago. hearing their story got me thinking about my own life experience through an ADHD lens. I recorded the ADHD episode and have an excuse me had a couple of clients whose challenges I could relate to more than just a little bit of a coincidence. Dr. Sherrie All, the star of the Focus Forward episode 16 all about memory connected me with Dr. Jan Willer, a licensed clinical psychologist who lives in Chicago, and she has written two books for practitioners - Could It Be Adult ADHD?, and The Beginning Psychotherapist's Companion, I thought Jan would be a great person to talk with. Jan and I recorded twice, once back in January and the second time just last month in September. The first time we talked about ADHD and what it is, and then spent a while talking about my own experience and symptoms. In September, we met again to reconnect and talk about the post diagnosis experience, and how people can both support themselves or the people they love who have ADHD. So today's episode is all about ADHD. And because it's ADHD Awareness Month, I hope my story helps someone out there find the confidence to go get tested. As you'll hear it has been a positive and life changing experience for me. So first up is our conversation from January.
Hannah Choi 02:20
Hi, Jan, thank you so much for joining me on focus forward.
Jan Willer, PhD 02:25
I am really excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Hannah Choi 02:29
This is take two right? We tried last week but my, I'm a migraine person and my migraines got in the way. So I'm glad we're able to do this today. Glad I migraine free today. Yeah, so we are going to talk about ADHD in adults and what that experience is like for people and how they got there. And so can you share a little bit with our listeners about why about why I'm talking to you about ADHD?
Jan Willer, PhD 03:03
Sure, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Well, I've been interested in ADHD for a good while. And actually a number of years ago, a psychiatrist that I would refer to would start referring adult ADHD clients, to me just kind of out of nowhere. And at that point in time, I didn't know very much about ADHD in adults. And just as a little sidebar, graduate schools usually don't teach very much about adult ADHD. And so every mental health professional out there who knows much about it has taught themselves and gone to seminars and that type of thing. But anyway, so I started teaching myself about it. And the more I learned, the more interested I became, and, you know, it's just a population of folks who really are undertreated a lot of the time and a little education and a little help with executive functioning issues can go and maybe a little bit of medication can really go a very long way in terms of helping people feel better and feel like they're functioning better as well.
Hannah Choi 04:16
I see that in the clients, the adult clients that I've worked with, where they have experienced exactly that with a little bit of medication, a little bit executive function, coaching, and just like a lot of knowledge, it's really made some big differences. What are what brings someone what are the questions that people have when they come to say, like, I think I might have ADHD?
Jan Willer, PhD 04:41
Well, a lot of the time, people will come to me and they've already been wondering about whether they have ADHD for a long time. And many people who've had ADHD their entire lives, were not diagnosed as children. And it used you know, back in the old days, it used to be thought that if it wasn't really obvious as a child, and the child wasn't pretty impaired from ADHD, then a person who is an adult couldn't possibly have ADHD. Now we know now that that's not true, because there's a lot of folks who don't get diagnosed for various reasons. Maybe because they just had inattentive type ADHD, and they were well behaved kids. And so, and they were, you know, pretty smart, and they just kind of flew under the radar and their grades weren't amazing, but they weren't disrupting the class, and they were just kind of daydreaming. And, you know, nobody really noticed that they were having some learning issues. So a lot of the time, those are the folks that kind of end up coming to us. But also, sometimes people may have had some hyperactivity as a kid, but their parents, and their schools really recognize that they need a lot of exercise. And so they would get put into sports and all kinds of camps that gave him plenty of exercise and this, so they coped, okay. And they didn't have behavior issues. So, you know, in the past, most of the folks with ADHD who are identified as children were people who had behavior issues, and usually white boys as well. But now we realize that anybody could have ADHD. And, and I think that is that information has gotten out into the popular consciousness. And so people are soaking that up and going, Oh, wow, maybe I have that. That sounds kind of like me. I just thought it was a flaw I had, but maybe I have ADHD.
Hannah Choi 06:46
So something that I've noticed, just in my observations of people talking about, if they have ADHD, or if they wonder if they do, I have noticed. And I think that there is a stigma around around it around being diagnosed with it and around having those challenges. Do you see that in the people that come to you do, do they express those hesitations?
Jan Willer, PhD 07:16
You know, I think it varies a lot by the age of the person. Because it seems like, you know, young adults have are much more knowledgeable about people who are neurodivergent, and often seem to have a lot less stigma about that, you know, they understand that people is some people have ADHD, some people are autistic, it's, you know, it's not necessarily such a big deal to them. It's just more a recognition of individual differences. But for people who are, you know, middle aged and older, for sure, and possibly also younger than that, it kind of depends on you know, the environment the person grew up in, they're often did grow up at a time where there was a lot of stigma about having ADHD. And there were a lot of stereotypes about people who had ADHD, which were often wrong. And there may not have even been an understanding that ADHD lasted to adulthood. And so they've often just internalized a lot of shame about some of their life challenges that are very, like completely related to ADHD.
Hannah Choi 08:30
Can you just talk a little bit about what ADHD is for any listeners who might just kind of have like a surface knowledge of it? And maybe we can help any listeners who might be questioning whether they they might and then maybe some, maybe you could share like some symptoms or some characteristics that aren't necessarily fully known? I mean, that the name of it ADHD, like is Attention Deficit Hyperactive disorder, but like you said before, many people can have ADHD but be the inattentive type. So maybe just share a little bit about what it is.
Jan Willer, PhD 09:09
Sure, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the first type of symptom of ADHD that was really recognized was the hyperactivity. And you know, if you've ever seen a hyperactive kid, that's pretty obvious. I mean, that's a kid that's just bouncing off the walls full of energies, maybe really talkative. And so, and then over time, it became clear that a lot of those kids also had some challenges with paying attention, despite, you know, in addition to their high energy level and tendency to bounce off the walls, and then it became clear that there are kids who had the inattentiveness alone. They didn't have the hyperactivity, but they still had a hard time paying attention consistently, especially in school and that was kind of where it was the most obvious but, you know, sometimes that home to their parents would say do this or that and they just kind of lose track of it didn't really absorb that information, or procrastinated, which can be a symptom of ADHD too. And then, you know, as things went along, people started to recognize that for most people, they do not grow out of ADHD. Most ADHD does last to adulthood, not every single one. But most, for sure. And as they recognize that ADHD, lastly to adulthood, they would see that adults with ADHD had a lot of executive functioning problems. And I'm sure that your listeners have a good understanding by now of what executive functioning. So I'm not gonna go into detail about that, because I'm sure you've covered that in a lot of different podcasts. Yeah. And the they actually, many experts actually consider the executive functioning problems to be more disabling for people who have ADHD as adults than either inattention or hyperactivity. Yeah. And we'll see that too. Sure. And when you look back at people who have ADHD as adults, it turns out that the executive functioning problems are a lifelong problem. They're just less obvious in kids, because with kids, the adults in their lives, be it their teachers and parents, you know, other other adults will structure their lives for them. And so they don't have to do as much executive functioning as an adult. That's right. And often, when people who have ADHD go off to college or leave home for the first time, they may, they often do have a lot of struggles initially, because they're not used to doing their own structuring for themselves.
Hannah Choi 12:02
Yeah, absolutely. I see. And most of my clients are college kids. And that's exactly what I see. Every pretty much in every every client, like, Wow, a lot of things were structured for me in high school. And I thought that I could, you know, just keep up doing the same thing once I got to college and wait a second. Not exactly working out as I thought it would.
Jan Willer, PhD 12:24
Yeah, and things can really fall apart pretty fast. Because nobody's telling them to get up. And people who have ADHD have a tendency to be night owls. And so, and especially, and sometimes it's so extreme that they could even get a diagnosis of delayed sleep phase disorder, which is a sleep disorder. And so that difficulty getting up to go to things, stay up till three in the morning, hanging out with friends playing video games, whatever, you know, and then they don't want to get up until 11. And class was it 9:30? Yeah, yeah. So there's can be a lot of different pieces to the difficulties that college students can have.
Hannah Choi 13:07
I know a big part of ADHD for kids and adults. But maybe we can talk about adults here is the self regulation and emotional regulation. How, how does that show up? What do you see in your practice?
Jan Willer, PhD 13:23
Yeah, I mean, that is indeed a common problem. And about half of people who have ADHD as adults do have this emotional dysregulation problem. And what it consists of is, when people have something stressful, occur, they tend to be especially reacted to that. And it could be just kind of ordinary stuff, like somebody cutting you off in traffic, or it could be something bigger, like, you know, some family crisis or something, or, you know, just a minor change, like, you know, they were looking for peppers in the refrigerator, and they didn't have any, and they were going to, that was going to be a key part of what they're going to make for dinner. And so these stressors, whether they're big or even little, can lead to some pretty intense emotional reactions for the person and the person can feel irritated and frustrated and aggravated. And, you know, depending on the individual, some people have kind of learned to hold all that in because they've realized that other people don't react well, when they're next to somebody who's really, you know, having an outburst about a minor stressor, but other people don't have the, you know, ability, at least in that moment to hold that in and may have, you know, a verbal outburst or a temper outburst or something in response. And that can be, you know, really challenging for the person because they look around at everybody else and they're like, wait a minute, these other people are having stressors to, but I'm reacting somewhat differently from them. And again, this is sometimes where there's shame or embarrassment. Because the person then feels bad about themselves for having a strong emotional reaction when other people might not. Yeah. But unfortunately, it can be a part of their ADHD struggle.
Hannah Choi 15:22
That's so interesting. I didn't ever know that, that that how closely connected that was to ADHD?
Jan Willer, PhD 15:29
Yeah, it really should be a symptom that is in the official diagnostic manual, but it's not.
Hannah Choi 15:36
What are some other symptoms that people might not know about?
Jan Willer, PhD 15:40
You know, that's a really good question. One symptom that I actually see all the time, is that often people who have ADHD have a really hard time getting to sleep. And they lie down in bed, and they're ready to go to sleep. And their brain just starts going and going and going. And it's very active. You know, folks who don't have ADHD, when they lie down and go to sleep, their brain is kind of like slowing down and not very full of stuff. As long as they're not stressed or anxious about something, yeah. But a person who has ADHD, their brain just tends to be at very active all the time. And that's not true for everybody. But it's true for a very large proportion of people who have ADHD and, and their brains activity will keep them awake. And they may stay awake for an hour when they're trying to go to sleep with their brain just churning over all kinds of different stuff. The default mode network is a network that so the brain has many different networks of connectivity. And the default mode network is one of those. And they call it that because they people used to think that if you weren't doing something, then your brain wasn't thinking about anything. Now, anyone who has tried to meditate knows that that's ridiculous. Yes. Because of you not doing anything, which is what meditation is, to some extent about your brain is full of ideas. And yeah. So so that's the default mode network kind of churning up ideas and thoughts about your life and how we what's just going on with you what you plan on doing just any old random thoughts about your life. And that area does tend to be extra active and people who have ADHD, which is I like you're pointing out the connection to the sleep onset problem. Yeah, right. Also, that area is supposed to be kind of quieted down, when you're working on a task, that since that area tends to be extra active, and people who have ADHD, often one piece of their challenges with distractibility is that they are distracted by their own thoughts when they're trying to work on things. Right. And so they're really trying to focus that their own thoughts are interrupting their thought process. And a final thing that is probably related to the default mode network in ADHD is that people who, there's a little bit of research, unfortunately, there is really isn't enough research on the positive aspects of ADHD. But there is a little bit of research indicating that people who have ADHD tend to be more creative than the average person, and tend to be really great at brainstorming and thinking up lots of ideas.
Hannah Choi 18:41
I was reading about that. And, and the article was saying that it may be because they're able to not gonna remember the whole brain part of it, but they're able to make connections that might not necessarily be able to be made by someone as easily if they don't have ADHD.
Jan Willer, PhD 19:03
Yeah, absolutely. Sort of. Yeah, that thinks ability in that part of the creativity of the ADHD brain for sure. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 19:10
Yeah. Huh. It's interesting that if there's one thing that you said was like, not everybody experiences that not being able to fall asleep bit. So what do you think? When when, like, not everyone with ADHD has all the same symptoms? And like, why do you know why that is? And no, it's just probably because we're just all different. But it's so interesting that some people can quiet their default mode network and then others can't.
Jan Willer, PhD 19:41
Yeah, it is kind of fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think that part of that has to do with the fact that ADHD, there's no one gene that ADHD is carried on right there. There's a lot of research about genetics and ADHD and a lot of it on us Sleep is way too technical for me. But yeah, I can read enough of it understand that there are dozens of genes at least that affect whether a person has ADHD. Okay, and if so to help what degree? Yeah, because some people have a lot of ADHD, some people have a little bit and some people have none. So, right. Right. And that, you know, plus everybody has a different life that they've been through was raised a different way. And so, you know, sometimes I see people with, you know, pretty significant ADHD symptoms, but they have no problem keeping track of their calendar, because they've had folks working with them their whole life about how important that is. And they've really got the skills down.
Hannah Choi 20:43
Right. Yeah, I imagine, like so much of your about of how your ADHD affects you, as an adult, is decided by just the strategies and the skills that you've learned and the awareness that you have of yourself and the impact that your behaviors have on your life and on others. And with kids. It's harder for them because they they haven't learned to that. Yeah, they just haven't been around long enough to, to kind of know that sort of stuff.
Jan Willer, PhD 21:19
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, with my client, adult clients, I don't work with kids. I tell them that one advantage that they're bringing to working with their ADHD is maturity. Yeah. Right. Because having that insight into how some of these challenges of ADHD have affected their life negatively, provides a lot of motivation to work on.
Hannah Choi 21:45
I interviewed Nancy Armstrong, who was the executive producer on a documentary called "The Disruptor"s and, and that her documentary, really highlights, it definitely explores the challenges. And it also highlights the positive side of ADHD. And that's and their work. Yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great watch. They're working really hard to dispel a lot of the myths around ADHD and, and help people find the positives. So in your opinion, what are some of the positives?
Jan Willer, PhD 22:19
Well, we've already mentioned a lot of them, right? The artistic creativity can be one of them, out of the box, thinking of being more of a divergent thinker who's able to connect a lot of different things. I think that because of people having that out of the box thinking, they're often really valuable team members. And, you know, I personally have, of course, I have no proof of this. But my personal belief is that the reason that the genes for ADHD survive in the population is because it's so helpful in any group of people to have somebody who is really creative and full of all kinds of ideas and thinks about things in a really different way. And, you know, to some extent, that might be true of autism as well.
Hannah Choi 23:12
So it's really interesting talking with you. And I know, it was a conversation that we had the other day before we came on, and in all the research that I've been doing, and all the clients that I've worked with, I'm realizing the more and more I read and the more and more I talk with people that I really think that I probably have our head like had as a child and still have the inattentive type. So much of, of what I've read, and just things that people have said, I'm like, Oh, my God, that just, I feel validated when I hear that and so it makes me wonder, you know, maybe that was something that I could have gotten help with as a child and, and, and can still now like as an adult, find things that helped me. I'm sure that you've heard a lot of people come into your practice and say something similar.
Jan Willer, PhD 24:12
Absolutely.
Hannah Choi 24:17
Okay, so in the interest of time, and potentially embarrassing myself more than I'm comfortable with. I'm going to stop the recording of a conversation here. Right after this. I asked Jan, if she'd be open to talking with me about my own challenges. We talked for a while about my life and what I struggle with and why I think I might have ADHD. It was pretty eye opening and extremely validating. She encouraged me to get a formal diagnosis from someone in my state. After chatting with Jan, I set up an appointment with my primary care physician who is an internal medicine doctor. I was really optimistic on the appointment day but things didn't go as planned. I was reminded of something that Dr. Theresa Cerulli said about how internists will not usually entertain a conversation about ADHD, and will generally refer you to a psychiatrist, which is exactly what mine did. Feeling deflated because I knew a psychiatrists fee would be greater than what I could afford. I remembered my own advice to clients. What would this look like if it were easy? So I reached out to Jan again, for more guidance. Do I need to see a psychiatrist is a full neuro Psych Exam necessary? And who else can I consult besides my doctor? Jan assured me that a full neuropsych exam wasn't required. She explained that due to the shortage of psychiatrists available for ADHD support, other providers can diagnose it without a formal neuropsych exam. And this boosted my confidence to search further. And then I found a local psychiatric nurse practitioner online through psychologytoday.com, which is a great resource for that kind of stuff. We met for over an hour, she asked me all about my health history and my childhood, my college years and my coloring challenges. And we went through the adult ADHD Self-Report scale together, which was hilarious. I kept bursting out laughing at many of the questions because it was me but on paper, and I kept wondering "Was the person who created the scale living in my brain?" Initially, I wasn't sure I wanted to use medication. But after learning about the ADHD brain and how it works, I was more open to it. I remembered something else that Dr. Cerulli said, at least have the conversation about medication options. Whether you use them or not, is up to you but have that conversation. I also felt confident trying medication because I already did all the things you're supposed to do, right? I eat well, I get a lot of exercise, my sleep habits are good. I had created systems that work really well to support myself in EF areas that I struggle with. But honestly, I was exhausted, forcing myself to use them all the time and not being as successful as I probably should have. And honestly, I was being pretty mean to myself inside when I struggled. So something had to change. So I decided to try using ADHD medication. I knew I wasn't interested in stimulants because I wasn't sure how they'd work with the anxiety that I already dealt with. And considering my history, Sophia prescribed the non stimulant Wellbutrin initially, it actually worked really well. But unfortunately, it increased the number of migraines I was having. And interestingly, there is a connection between migraines and people with ADHD. And I'm actually having an appointment with a with a neurologist coming up. And I want to ask more about that and learn more about that connection. So anyway, I switched to another non stimulant called Strattera. And that's actually been working great. It's made a huge difference in reducing the constant chatter in my head until it quieted down in there, I seriously had no idea how much noise I had in my brain all the time. I've also noticed that it's so much easier for me to get started on my work and get back to it if I get interrupted. And I can also stay focused on my work for longer periods of time. And following through on stuff that I don't want to do is not so painfully difficult anymore. And I remember Bob Shae telling me that his meds make it easier to use all the tools he had already implemented. I agree, Bob, I completely agree. I have spent a lot of time reflecting you know, me, I love that self reflection and thinking back to choices that I made and things that I did that were likely because of ADHD. I've been reading and listening to podcasts and talking with people about their ADHD. And I am learning so much. I decided to reach out to Jan again to talk with her about what comes up for people once they've been diagnosed, and what supports will help. We met just recently to record and realize it had been almost nine months since we first talked. Let's check in to hear what we talked about.
Hannah Choi 29:17
So when we last talked, I asked you about my own experience with ADHD and I really am grateful to you for taking that time with me to walk me through that a little bit uncomfortable, and a little scary conversation and and it's just such a great example of this idea that when we step outside of our comfort zone we end up finding magic and and discovering things that we never knew or we knew about ourselves but we didn't like have words for it. And it's just been who I got chills it's really actually been life changing and I'm I am so grateful for it. So thank you.
Jan Willer, PhD 30:03
Oh, you're welcome. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I do find that a lot of people really appreciate knowing that they have ADHD. Because it has so much explanatory power for what people have been struggling with. And like you said, sometimes people don't even have the words, yeah, for all of their struggles. So being able to talk about it with a professional and have that person say, Oh, well, people who have ADHD often struggle with this, and this and this and kind of give, give the person the words and the ways to conceptualize it. And then they'll be like, Yes, I do that. And yes, I have that problem, too. And yes, that's so hard for me, really can kind of make a difference in terms of the person understanding themselves, and being able to communicate with their loved ones. And people they work with even the whether they come out about having ADHD or not, they can still say things like, it really doesn't work very well, for me to have a lot of interruptions when I'm trying to work on a project.
Hannah Choi 31:13
Yes, yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great point that you brought up. And something I wanted to talk about is that whole, you know, disclosing at work type of thing, because so I, you know, I'm very lucky, I work in a job where, you know, I wasn't even an issue for me to disclose, they were just like, okay, yeah, that's great. What's next, you know, and then, and, in fact, it, it probably really helps me as a coach to know and to relate with my clients even more. And, and so I'm very lucky that I work in an environment that is not only extremely accepting of neurodivergence, but also we are in like, the literal business of supporting people who are neurodivergent. And then you know, there's there's other people who may or may not feel safe disclosing that at work. And so I really love that, that that suggestion that you gave just then of how you can disclose your needs without necessarily disclosing your diagnosis. How do you support client, your clients who come to with that struggle?
Jan Willer, PhD 32:26
Yeah, well, you know, everybody who has ADHD is a little bit different. And so you know, depends on some people work better at home, some people work better in the office, it kind of each person has different situations where they concentrate better. Sometimes that people do better in the office that also certain areas of office are too noisy or distracting. And so they need some help with that. On occasion, I have written accommodation letters for people. And it doesn't always work 100%. But usually, they are able to do something that's helpful to the person. Like I had someone I was talking to once whose cube was right by the coffee machine. And you can imagine how distracting that would be for anybody, much less a person who has ADHD, and they were able to get moved to an area that was a lot quieter. And that made all the difference in terms of being able to be efficient at work.
Hannah Choi 33:29
Yeah, and I imagine a big part of it is self efficacy and being brave enough to speak up about it. So having someone like you to maybe work through a script, or just kind of talk out what an accommodation might be helpful. I'm, I'm sure that is a big, a big part of people's experience.
Jan Willer, PhD 33:50
Right. And, you know, people can kind of take two different approaches to that. I mean, one is kind of the official HR approach, you know, going in, I want reasonable accommodations for my ADHD, which legally is considered a disability even though you know, people can discuss whether they could consider it that way or not. And so that's one approach. And the other approach is to say, okay, to think about, well, how is my ADHD interacting negatively with the work environment? And how can I verbalize what my needs are? If I don't feel comfortable or the HR situation isn't optimal in a way that people can hear it and might be willing to work with me on it? Tomorrow, kind of informal approach.
Hannah Choi 34:42
And I bet when you have an like, I imagined maybe like before someone gets a diagnosis, they still are aware of what their challenges are. Maybe after they get the formal diagnosis. They're like, okay, that might give them some confidence to to ask for what they need there. There's an actual reason why they need that. It's not just that they're bad. They're, you know, there's a real reason.
Jan Willer, PhD 35:08
Right, and I think you're bringing up a really important point is that a lot of people, you know, like yourself managed to kind of fly under the radar their whole life. And they knew something was going on, they knew they were somewhat different from everybody else. But it often tends to be very internalized. And the person tends to feel like, well, I'm struggling, and all these other people aren't struggling, therefore, there's something wrong with me. And so that, you know, that, then they just kind of end up what caught doing what many people call masking, which is trying to pretend that there isn't an issue, even if they are struggling, and a lot of people can be very successful at pretending. But even though even though inside they're really feeling kind of miserable about
Hannah Choi 35:59
Yeah, there's a there's a, an internal cost. That is it's maybe not visible, but they are feeling it. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. That That reminds me of, we recently did a webinar about ADHD, and about for people who were newly diagnosed and are curious. And a parent asked about their child who was, I can't remember, I think he was like, older teen young adult kind of college age. So the parents said, he had just been diagnosed, and was feeling like it was a negative thing. And, and, and she was wondering how we could or how she could support him to learn about about it, and maybe see it in a more positive light. And it just made me think like, he's probably spent a lot of his life internalizing all of those things, then you find out, Oh, there's a reason for it. Oh, then this must be a bad thing. So how do you support people who are how can we even our listeners, if we have people, you know, loved ones in our lives? who have been diagnosed? How can we support them? In seeing that it's not all bad?
Jan Willer, PhD 37:21
Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways to look at this. I mean, one way to look at it is to say, well, you know, if you if you think about it from a disability perspective, which is, you know, one angle to look at things is to say, Okay, well, it's a disability that makes it difficult for this person to learn, in certain situations difficult for the person to work in certain situations take information in and at times, you know, all kinds of other challenges that can come up with that. But does that, does that have to be viewed in a negative and judgmental way? Right, you know, the brain is an organ to the brain, you know, can have issues just like any other organ can have issues. And so, in a way, that's one way of conceptualizing ADHD and thinking about it in terms of not having stigma towards a person who has an illness or a disability or something like that, because nobody deserves that, that's, you know, that's ableism. And that's wrong. So, another way of thinking about it, which I think is is equally valid, is thinking about it in terms of being neurotypical versus neurodivergent. And so, you know, when we think of people who are neurotypical, we're typically talking about a person who doesn't have ADHD, and a person who doesn't have autism. And so, those folks at you know, the world is built around people who are neurotypical is not built to accommodate people who are neurodivergent. And so that's part of the difficulty that people who are neurodivergent have is that it's just not, it's not built for how their brain operates, nothing is built for how their brain offers and the things that are valued, don't tend to be the things that the people who are neurodivergent have to offer. So for example, some of the things that a person who's neurodivergent have to offer our, the, their incredible ability to be really interested and passionate about things and just really dig in and get into something and understand all the incredible connections between they're taught that topic that they're into and everything around it, they're great at understanding things in a network kind of interconnected way. Whereas kind of in this is obviously a little over-simplified, but a person who's neurotypical tends to be more of a linear thinker, whereas a person who has ADHD tends to be more of a, you know, kind of a divergent, tangential type thinker. And also people who have ADHD are often very creative in some way or another, you know, they can be creative in terms of problem solving, coming up with ideas, brainstorming, they also can be very creative in terms of the arts. So, and they're just great at coming up with ideas that no one else ever thought of, you know, and those are not things that the school system was really searching for.
Hannah Choi 40:45
So help, helping somebody with ADHD who maybe has recently been diagnosed recognize that ability that they have, and recognize how they can use that in a work situation or school situation. Yeah, while simultaneously advocating for themselves to somehow fit successfully into that neurotypical system.
Jan Willer, PhD 41:11
Right, the neurotypical world. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 41:14
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that broke my heart that he that that boy felt that way. Because, and maybe it's just age, right. So I, I found out that I was, you know, I got the answer to all of my questions when I was 46. And so I, I might, you know, I'm just like, just have more life experience, and I'm more mature, I guess. Right. So I was able to, like, kind of go back and, and hug the 20 year old version of me that, you know, didn't understand. And he is that 20 year old version of himself. And so he doesn't, he just has what other people are telling him. So I guess that's not really sure where I'm going with this, but I like, but it just makes me think of when you've been diagnosed, finding people who really support you recognizing your strengths. And, you know, and following your strengths, following your talents, finding a work environment, or a school environment that is willing and open to supporting you as an neurodivergent thinker. With an ADHD brain or an ASD brain, then, you know, that that would I imagine just lead to a better experience, like I'm having, you know, the fact that the work that I do is very well suited for me.
Jan Willer, PhD 42:37
Yeah, and I think people who have ADHD are especially well suited to professions where there's always something new to learn, there's always a problem to solve. There's always a new person to talk to, you know, and that, and they're really great at engaging in all of those new things that are coming at them and love, usually love learning new things. Yeah. Which I think is really cool.
Hannah Choi 43:05
It is. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so I was just listening to Ned Hallowell he was on, on a podcast that I really enjoyed listening to with a woman called Kate, I can't remember her last name, but she's a British woman who has a podcast called the ADHD, women's well being podcast, and she interviewed him on there, and he was talking about, and I'm sure he's talked about this and other things, I just happen to hear it on there. But he was talking about how important it is for people with ADHD to, to, to do things that, that they're really interested in and find a job that they are good at, because it's something that they're good at, or because it's something that they're interested in. And to break free from these, like, preconceived notions that society has, like, oh, you need to become this or that or maybe your parents expectation or, or your social circle or whatever. And, and this just another chance, another op op, another situation where a person has to say like, Hey, I might not do things the same as everybody else.
Jan Willer, PhD 44:12
Absolutely. Right. And doing things different in a different way. Doesn't mean you're doing things in a worse way. Hmm, I like that. Right? Different isn't?
Hannah Choi 44:21
It's just yeah, it's just different. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.
Jan Willer, PhD 44:27
And, you know, often I'll tell my clients who have ADHD that it's important to work with it rather than against. Yeah, don't fight it and feel like I have to do everything the way exactly the way that a neurotypical person does it or I'm not successful. Yeah, do it in a way that works for you and your own particular brain. And that's great.
Hannah Choi 44:52
Yeah, just I have a friend who has ADHD and so we've just been talking a lot lately and, and we were talking about how Oh, how it's so fun talking with another person who has ADHD because you can get really tangental and tangential and come right back and other person just follow right along. I had a client this morning, she's like, sorry, I'm all over the place. I'm like, Don't worry, I, I gotcha. Gotta take a lot of notes as you're going, because otherwise I'll forget what you say. But, uh, mowing you? Yeah. And I guess that deer? Do do you see in your clients desire to connect with other people who have ADHD or to find a social support that way?
Jan Willer, PhD 45:39
You know, I think it's interesting that you're bringing that up, because I have certainly have noticed that a lot of my clients who have ADHD do tend to have friends who have ADHD, and sometimes even spouses, but the spouses can go either way, sometimes they have ADHD, and sometimes they want to be with somebody who's very organized. Like, they want to be with a really neurotypical person, balance them out. Yeah, exactly. But they do tend to really, you know, kind of enjoy that bouncing around. Yeah, seasonally, that happens when two people have ADHD. It's an interesting phenomena.
Hannah Choi 46:18
It's fun! We're fun people.
Jan Willer, PhD 46:20
Yeah, I mean, people who have ADHD tend to be full of life. And, you know, it's really and spontaneous and have lots of interesting things to say. And you know, that's cool. That's a good friend.
Hannah Choi 46:35
Something that, that I've been thinking about lately is the anxiety that comes along with ADHD and how, for me, realizing how connected they were was so freeing, and it's truly incredible how much less anxiety I am experiencing now. And I remember you said that you said to, you often encourage people to explore the ADHD diagnosis when they have it, where they have anxiety. And at night, I really can speak to that it made a really big difference for me. And then I think back to my childhood. And I remember I went to the summer camp, and they gave away awards at the end of the summer. And the award that I got, which I was 12. And now looking back on it, oh god that my poor 12 year old self, the worst they gave me was the "What If Award". And because I always used to say, well, what if what if this happens? What if that happens? I was really anxious. And it nobody said like, "Wait a second? Why is she wondering all the time What if?" And now I realize it's because my brain was thinking of all the things, all the things. And I just so when I realized that I was in the car today while I was driving. Oh, so I went back to my 12 year old self. It's okay. We get it now. Yeah, so that's been that's been like a really nice experience that I've had is being able to go back and just kind of forgive myself a little bit.
Jan Willer, PhD 48:09
Yeah, yeah, it really it does take a while to kind of turn over all the things that happened that were related to the ADHD, and put it all in context, isn't it?
Hannah Choi 48:20
Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's and you know, so it's been, like, nine months since we talked, so nine months of me, like really exploring that. And, and it's, I think, out of the whole experience, I think that is probably the most impactful is being able to explain a lot of things and, and really forgive myself, because I held on for so long, that, that I was just bad at all those things, and, and internalized so much of it, and I and I, but I was really good at masking it even to myself. And so it's just been, like incredible, but for sure need a therapist. Like, I don't think I would have been able to do that all on my own. I wouldn't, I would have been more afraid to go there without the support of a therapist, you know, like, walking me through it is it's been. It's been hard. And it's been amazing. Yeah.
Jan Willer, PhD 49:27
Yeah. So there's there's a lot of advantages that can come to having a therapist who is knowledgeable about ADHD, right? Yeah. Because they can help you sort through those issues from the past and get their perspective on it. Right. And they can provide you with a lot of information about ADHD and you know how the brain works when a person has ADHD. Yeah, what their common struggles are or what their differences are. So, so that's, that's really useful too, and it can help you work on and coping skills if there's things that you're struggling with.
Hannah Choi 50:03
Yeah. So you know what, before we go, what kind of it? Like, what's your top advice that you give to people? Right? You know, when they, when they come to this realization like, oh, okay, this is why?
Jan Willer, PhD 50:19
Well, I think it's the case with any, you know, cognitive or emotional difference that a person may have in that get, you know, knowledge is power, right? Yeah. And so the more a person understands themselves, the more they understand how their brain is working, the more they've understand how ADHD has affected their life, and affected how they feel about themselves and their emotions, you know, then that really helps them figure out how to move forward. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 50:53
Yeah. And that might take a while and might take a lot of hard work. Probably some tears. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again, Jan. I will be forever, eternally grateful to you for taking the time and for being so supportive. And I really hope that anyone listening can can find a Jan Willer in their lives, to you know, to kind of walk them through this whole, like, exploration of possible ADHD diagnosis.
Hannah Choi 51:33
I just like I like you heard me just say, I am just so grateful for this diagnosis now at age 46. And I'm sad that there was not as much education and understanding about ADHD back when I was a kid so that me and other people like me, could have gotten help earlier. And mom, I know you're listening, I just want you to know that I placed absolutely no blame at all on you, or dad, or on my teachers or the other adults in my childhood, there just wasn't the knowledge, the awareness and understanding that we have today. And I know there are people out there many of them women like me, who were masking their symptoms with coping skills, they were not so that were not so outwardly noticeable to others and didn't have any catastrophic consequences. But they were slowly turning them us inside into people who struggle to find confidence, and believe in themselves. So I am really hopeful for myself and everyone else out there who can relate to any of what I've shared today. If you can relate, please reach out, ask for help ask the questions. It's scary, but you got to do it. I made an appointment, like I said before with a neurologist to learn about my migraines and the connection with ADHD. And I also made an appointment with a more affordable psychiatrist who does full neuro psych reports for less than the typical cost. I'm very excited about that. And you know, as Jan said, knowledge is power. So I'm taking my brain health into my own hands and learning as much as I can. And I really hope that you're able to do that for yourself as well.
Hannah Choi 53:11
If you've been listening for a while, you'll know that one of our main goals is to hopefully help someone somewhere who is struggling with an aspect or maybe many aspects of their executive function skills. Well, this episode is here to maybe help that person find freedom from their frustrating past. By finding the courage to get tested, ask questions, learn about medication and strategies that truly can make a huge difference. It was hard and kind of weird to put myself out there for this episode. My colleagues and Jan both asked me if I was okay with being in that vulnerable position. But I thought about all the people who might be able to relate who might not know where to start and who might find some inspiration and maybe some bravery in my story. I also figured if Katie Couric, Jimmy Kimmel, and Ryan Reynolds can all share their colonoscopy experiences on TV, I can share my ADHD story with you on Focus Forward.
Hannah Choi 54:10
And that is our show for today. If you know anyone who might want to hear all this or maybe needs to hear all this, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love love, love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts and if you listen on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, please give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening everyone.
Wow, I can’t believe it. This is the last episode of our second season of Focus Forward. We started the season off with Rachel Hulstein-Lowe who joined me to talk about transitions and how to make them a little easier. We explored memory, college students, grief, cognitive flexibility, and much, much more. You supported us by downloading our new episodes, reviewing us on apple podcasts and Spotify, sending me emails of support, and subscribing to our podcast newsletter. My heart is truly full from it all. Thank you! We'll be back with more episodes for you early this fall 🍁 In the meantime....
Today, we’re ending season two with an exploration of a really important Executive Function skill - organization. Although there are many dimensions to organization, I’ve dedicated this episode to just three that are particularly important: space, data, and belongings. Discover new strategies, approaches, and tools you can use to become more organized and live a more fulfilling life overall!
Thank you again for your support and for being part of the Focus Forward community! Here are the show notes from today’s episode:
Finding Motivation to Get Organized
Decisional Balance Sheet for helping make a decision to change behavior: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uwhjq0HZhGUdr6_Pfpq5U2flPjdb5jcLGmA54HNiO_c/edit?usp=sharing
Cassandra Aarsen’s Organization Quiz: Clutterbug.me
How to Help Your Child Get Organized: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/how-to-help-your-child-get-organized
The Anxious, Stressed High School Student: An Executive Function Link: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/the-anxious-stressed-high-school-student-an-executive-function-link
Gaining Calm by Organizing: How to Clear Your Space & Mind: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/meditation-in-organization-how-to-clear-your-space-mind
Email Organization Inspiration
Best Practices for Outlook: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/best-practices-for-outlook-f90e5f69-8832-4d89-95b3-bfdf76c82ef8
Get started with Gmail for Google Workspace: https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9260550?hl=en
Sort’d, a Beyond BookSmart coach-recommended Chrome extension for Gmail organization: https://www.sortd.com/
Contact us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Last week, I had a blast hosting another free webinar for Beyond BookSmart that was all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie, an Executive Function coach and ADHD expert, joined me to explore how the ADHD brain works and what the roles of medication, therapy and executive function coaching are within the larger umbrella of ADHD treatment. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches’ favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with, and featured psychiatrist, Dr. Theresa, to fill in some of our expertise gaps around ADHD medication. So, today, I’m bringing you the audio from the webinar AND a bonus Q&A section that Amy & I did after the webinar (there were just too many great questions we didn’t get to!) If you joined us live and just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to around 47 minutes to listen to just that. And if you didn’t get a chance to watch the webinar at all, be sure to look for the link in the show notes below!
For those who have been blessed with careful ears, you’ll hear me share in this episode that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. Because of my recent diagnosis, this episode is particularly close to my heart. I hope you enjoy listening half as much as I enjoyed being a part of these important conversations and if you do, be sure to give us a 5-star review on the platform you’re listening on! And last but certainly not least, thank you for being a part of the Focus Forward community.
Here are the show notes for this week:
Watch our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis
https://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/u3pueh40rs
Slides from our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/hubfs/How%20to%20Thrive%20with%20ADHD%20After%20a%20Diagnosis%202023.pdf
Beyond BookSmart ADHD Success Kit
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022
Focus Forward Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHD
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=by637taszi
Focus Forward Ep 18: Flipping the ADHD Narrative: How "The Disruptors" is Changing the Way We Talk About ADHD (ft. Nancy Armstrong)
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=wwh3rsdpbw
2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gA
Resilience is a topic I've wanted to explore for a long time on the podcast. After all, how can we continue to work on ourselves if our progress is always getting cut short? So in this week's episode, we're going to explore 6 tips for becoming more resilient in your life.
When I started doing the research for today’s episode on how to handle sliding back when you’ve made some progress, something about my search terms brought up a bunch of articles on how to handle sliding while driving on icy roads. I was going to pass these over but then I got a little distracted and a little curious about what the pros have to say about this. Living in New England, knowing how to handle driving on icy roads is a requirement so I thought I should brush up on my knowledge. And, as I read through the article, I realized that all of the tips they suggested applied quite well to sliding back when making progress! So, today’s episode is a two-fer! It will teach you about managing both sliding while driving on icy roads and sliding back after making good progress. Once again, Focus Forward to the rescue!
Here are some resources related to the episode.
How to handle backslides: https://www.scottsfortcollinsauto.com/what-do-you-do-if-your-car-is-sliding-on-ice/
Resilience Resources:
https://www.apa.org/topics/resilience
https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/resilience/according-experts/protective-role-executive-function-skills-high-risk-environments
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6403185/
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_hardwire_resilience_into_your_brain
James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/get-back-on-track
Emotional regulation: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/
Consistency: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9iZTI4OGFjL3BvZGNhc3QvcnNz/episode/NDBjMDBiMTUtMzMwMy00OGVjLWI2OWMtMGE3ZjNmNDlmZGI3?ep=14
Breaking streaks:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ulterior-motives/202306/how-broken-streaks-sap-motivation
In this week's episode, we explore the fascinating world of the human brain and its impact on stress management, parenting, and relationships. We had the privilege of inviting Dr. Alison Roy, a licensed clinical psychologist, and a bona fide brain enthusiast. I first heard Dr. Roy speak during the pandemic, and her insights on the brain, trauma, stress, and parenting were truly impactful.
In our conversation, Dr. Roy sheds light on the science behind our reactions to stress and provides practical advice on how to maintain control and leverage our executive function skills—the skills governed by the pre-frontal cortex, a term you've probably heard me mention quite often. The aim? To improve and maintain our relationships, make parenting a bit easier, and in general, navigate life with a better understanding of our own minds.
I urge you to listen to this episode, even if you're not a parent or caregiver. Much of the advice that Dr. Roy shares is universally applicable, and her passion for educating others about the brain is truly infectious. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I relished being a part of it.
Here some relevant resources related to the conversation:
Dan Siegel’s Books
https://drdansiegel.com/books/
Hand Model of the Brain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m2YcdMdFw
Polyvagal theory in practice
https://ct.counseling.org/2016/06/polyvagal-theory-practice/
YouTube Video of Dr. Stephen Porges explaining the polyvagal theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec3AUMDjtKQ
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs
https://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571
Dr. Alison Roy’s website
www.dralisonroy.com
Beyond BookSmart
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/
You may or may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics but in a live setting, it's such a blast and I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about Executive Function skills and discover how life changing they can be to work on. We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our latest webinar, “Your Kid’s Not Lazy: How to Unlock Motivation Through Executive Function” to our Focus Forward listeners and share some bonus content for those who happened to be among the 1300 people who registered.
This past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, their related Executive Function skills and challenges and some tools and strategies you can use to help make motivation a little easier for your kids and/or yourself. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the q&a feature on Zoom and then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. For this webinar, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So, I invited our panelists, Amy McDuffie and Vin Kachurik to join me the day after to help answer a whole bunch more. Keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our bonus conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills, and self-advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate to. The new section starts around 44:08 if you want to skip right to it!
If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, BeyondBookSmart.com. They're always free and we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable.
In the meantime, here are some resources related to the episode:
Full recording of the webinar
Michael Delman's book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay
Blog on ADHD & Motivation
Link to agenda and webinar slides:
Info about Executive Function coaching
Supporting College Students - including Covey Quadrants
How to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment Experts
Dr. Lisa Damour’s Advice for Motivation to Do Homework
Okay, so today we’re getting real. Recently, a coworker shared with me how her friend has long struggled with working as a nurse while also having ADHD. This friend was lucky enough to find a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her, but many are not as lucky. And although ADHD is commonplace in the healthcare space, its challenges are often stigmatized and swept under the rug - creating an epidemic of shame that can feel isolating and overwhelming. After all, imagine what it feels like to constantly help others when you yourself are struggling everyday?
To help shed light on this subject, we reached out to an Executive Function coach of ours, Beth Malvino, who coaches two social workers, Lina and Cassie. Together, they bravely shared their stories about the difficulties they’ve faced in managing their own executive dysfunction while supporting others' mental wellbeing. Their stories are powerful and filled with important wisdom around the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and what can be done to overcome them. We explore self-care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live, and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening who has Executive function challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you’ll hear on this episode.
NOTE: There is some very light swearing in this episode. If you’ve got any young kids with you who happen to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on healthcare workers, you might want to give them a heads up.
Finally, I also wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Send me your episode topic ideas! I’d love to hear from you.
In the meantime, here are the show notes from today's episode:
Tips For Nurses Managing Their Attention Deficit Disorder:
https://blog.diversitynursing.com/blog/tips-for-nurses-managing-their-attention-deficit-disorder
A Day in the Life of a Healthcare Professional with Executive Function Challenges:
https://www.worksmartcoaching.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-healthcare-professional-with-executive-function-challenges
8 Tips For How To Thrive As A Nurse With ADHD | NurseJournal:
https://nursejournal.org/articles/how-to-thrive-as-a-nurse-with-adhd/
ADHD - Workplace Issues:
https://chadd.org/for-adults/workplace-issues/
If you’ve been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.
In today’s episode, we’ll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you’ll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She’s also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you’ll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches’ perspective to the conversation as well.
Here are some resources related to the conversation:
A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing Child
https://developingchild.harvard.edu/guide/a-guide-to-executive-function/
Peg Dawson’s Smart but Scattered Books
https://www.smartbutscatteredkids.com/books/
Child Mind Institute Guide to Executive Functioning
https://childmind.org/topics/executive-functions/
Executive Function Skills by Age
https://lifeskillsadvocate.com/blog/executive-function-skills-by-age/
Downloadable Guides by Age from Harvard University
https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/activities-guide-enhancing-and-practicing-executive-function-skills-with-children-from-infancy-to-adolescence/
Focus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challenges
https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=zn7ksmofjm
When it comes to helping students learn more efficiently, Executive Function skills are the greatest tool teachers have at their disposal. Yet, many teachers aren’t aware of their value, and the ones that do often don't know how to support them in the classroom. For example, we had one teacher ask us on our Facebook page how teachers can support their own Executive Function challenges while also managing a classroom full of kids who have varying degrees of Executive Function challenges, too. As soon as I read this question, I knew EF in the classroom was an important topic to cover on Focus Forward - and that I also had the perfect people to reach out to.
BrainTracks is a separate division of Beyond BookSmart that’s focused on training teachers in Executive Function tools and strategies that they can use in the classroom. I invited the program’s director, Susan Lohman, and one of their School Training specialists, Allison Larthey, to talk about the role Executive Function skills play in the classroom and how teachers can help both their students and themselves develop these skills further. Listen in to learn how you can apply these same strategies to find more time and energy for learning at home or in the classroom.
I hope you enjoy the conversation. Be sure to check out the relevant links and resources below that were mentioned in the episode!
Braintracks
Braintracks Website
Braintracks Resources
Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay by Michael Delman
Ep 15: Building Meaning: Life Lessons from an Executive Function Pioneer
Tools
6 Steps to Successful Goal Setting for Students (and Adults!)
SMART Goals - How to Make Your Goals Achievable
Circle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in Action
Mirror Neurons
Mirror neurons: Enigma of the metaphysical modular brain - PMC
The Mind's Mirror
Although each and every Executive Function skill is essential for success in today’s world, one that’s too often-overlooked (if not forgotten entirely) is cognitive flexibility. Whether you’ve heard about this skill or not, cognitive flexibility is critical for adapting to difficult situations and just overall feeling like we have control over our lives. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode, so here we are! I’m going to show you why it’s so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own and of the kids in our lives. If you’re dying for more information about this after you’re done listening, check out the show notes below:
Learn More About Cognitive Flexibility
Demystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscience
Flexible Thinking Problems in Kids | Understood
Kids Use Flexible Thinking to Learn | Executive Functioning Skills | Understood
Improve your Cognitive Flexibility Skills
What is Flexible Thinking? How to Become a Flexible Thinker
Circle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in Action
The Importance of Taking the Perspective of Others
Meditation, mindfulness and cognitive flexibility
3 Ways to Improve Your Cognitive Flexibility
Cognitive Flexibility Resources from the Beyond BookSmart Blog
2 Executive Function Skills to Help Parents Beat Back to School Stress
Grit + Executive Function skills = Academic Success
Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world?
To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.
Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.
Learn More About Dr. Sussman
Dr. Sussman's Website on Trainings
The Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use Disorders
Dr. Sussman’s YouTube Channel
The Ross Center
Screen Use & Executive Function Skills
Beyond BookSmart’s collaboration with Dr. Sussman
Screenagers by Delaney Ruston
On this episode, I’m taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our Executive Functioning. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. Even though grief and emotional trauma are part of being human, they're both really hard to talk about as we all have experienced or will experience some form of each within our lives. However, not only is everyone’s reaction to grief different, but everyone’s reaction to other people’s grief is different, too. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about. Most of all, hopefully finding some answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. After all, things won’t be the same after loss, so how can we navigate that?
I reached out to Dr. Lisa Shulman who is a neurologist and a professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and Our Brain. Her focus on the brain’s reaction to grief and, as you’ll hear her explain, emotional trauma, was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa’s personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic. Her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more and her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss.
Show Notes
Learn more about Dr. Lisa Shulman
Read Lisa’s book Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and our Brain
Learn More about Jody LaVoie
Watch Hannah’s conversation with Jody on our YouTube Channel
Resources on Grief, Loss, and Emotions
How to Feel Your Feelings by @emilyonlife (on Instagram)
Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated Executive Producer of "The Disruptors," the first comprehensive documentary about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and its effect on kids, adults, and their families. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Nancy to have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD and why she wanted to create a comprehensive film to help dispel the myths around ADHD and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits.
When you view the film, you may notice a star-studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician Will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. The film also features Dr. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and New York Times best-selling author, who's helped lead the charge on ADHD awareness for decades.
If you’re listening before January 26, 2023, you can watch The Disruptors for free! (Info in the show notes)
Show Notes:
Learn more about “The Disruptors”
Watch “The Disruptors” for free! Use code TDB-BBS. Available from 1/19/23 - 1/26/23.
If you're reading this after January 26th, 2023, click here to find out how to watch.
Learn more about Nancy Armstrong
Download our free ADHD success kit
Whether it's the first day at daycare or preschool, the beginning of kindergarten, or the transition to middle or high school, sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. But for college, it can can be downright terrifying.
According to both the experts and the people in my life, it’s the biggest leap of faith of all - especially these days with the high rates of depression and anxiety among college kids (both of which have doubled since 2014!) Luckily, there are people like Dr. Marcia Morris out there to support both our kids and ourselves. Marcia is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida and she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the university. Marcia and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives.
Here are some resources related to the topic of college students' mental health.
988 Lifeline
Learn More about Dr. Marcia Morris
Marcia’s website
The Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College Students
Psychology Today Blog
College Mental Health Resources
Healthy Minds Study
How Colleges Today Are Supporting Student Mental Health
Student mental health is in crisis. Campuses are rethinking their approach
Before Heading to College, Make a Mental Health Checklist
Taking a Mental Health Leave from College
Gap Years
Taking a Gap Year Before Grad School
Taking a Gap Year Before College
Learn More About Gap Years
On this week's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All, who is a neuroscientist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Cognitive Wellness Centers in Chicago and the D.C. area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book (which you’ll hear me gush about) called the Neuroscience of Memory. This topic is especially interesting to me because working memory is one of the core Executive Functions we use everyday. My own working memory is my biggest EF achilles heel, which is probably why math and I don’t get along and why I can’t go to the store without a list because I’ll walk out with lots of stuff I didn’t need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But, over the years, I’ve learned what strategies help me the most. Talking with Sherrie helped me understand that it’s okay to use these external resources to remember things during the day and that there are concrete things we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn, supports our memory. Listen in to learn more about memory, the brain, and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently as long as we possibly can.
Here are some resources related to our conversation:
Learn more about Dr. Sherrie All
Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness
Sherrie All, PhD
The Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, PhD
Learn More About Memory
Working Memory Underpins Cognitive Development, Learning, and Education
Memory - Harvard Health
Cognitive Health and Older Adults | National Institute on Aging
Working Memory: Take Note of Your Child’s Challenges
How to Memorize More Effectively (When Technology is Not an Option!)
Memorization Strategies – Learning Center at UNC
7 Ways to Retain More of Every Book You Read by James Clear
Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?
In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.
Show Notes
BrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.com
Your Kid’s Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delman
An Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/
Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.com
Chan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/
In today’s episode, we're exploring the Fxecutive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward, defines the skill of time management as “the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines”. She continues by arguing that this process starts with one simple insight: understanding that time is important in the first place!
As an Executive Function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time and how it impacts their lives. Today, I’m going to share with you a 4-step system that I’ve developed that can help you build time-management strategies that you'll be able to use for life.
Time Management Basics
How To Master Time Management – ADHD Skills Part 1 - Dr. Tracey Marks
6 Simple Motivation Hacks for a More Productive Life
Time Management Tip: The Unschedule
Transition from High School to College: Time Management is Key
15 Practical Ways to Improve Time Management Skills - Lifehack
3 Time Management Tips That Actually Work - James Clear
Eisenhower Matrix/Covey Quadrants
How to Use Covey's 4 Quadrants Matrix for Effective Time Management
The Eisenhower Matrix: How to prioritize your to-do list
Avoid the "Urgency Trap" with the Eisenhower Matrix
Learn how to use Stephen Covey's 4 time quadrants to maximize your productivity
How to be More Productive and Eliminate Time Wasting Activities by Using the “Eisenhower Box” - James Clear
Managing Phone Distraction
These simple steps will help you stop checking your phone so much
10 Strategies to Limit Your Teen's Screen Time
Offtime
Dial D for Distracted | The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
Screen Use and Screen Addiction Resource Page
October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.
From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual’s life in ways both good and bad. So in today’s episode, I’ll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We’ll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I’ll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset.
A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication’s role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.
Speaking of which... here are the show notes!
ADHD Fundamentals
ADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmart
Fact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) Topics
What is ADHD? | CDC
5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard Health
ADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MD
School Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute
ADHD Brains
It's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHD
Default Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
Norepinephrine: Dopamine’s Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology Today
It's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHD
ADHD & the Brain
2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube Video
The Default Mode Network, Motivation, and Attention
The ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention Deficit
ADHD Research
The World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorder
ADHD and Gender
ADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measures
The Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly Miles
A Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMC
ADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for Parents
ADHD Diagnosis Support
How to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind Institute
Symptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDC
ADHD Symptom Management
The Exercise Prescription for ADHD
What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?
Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADD
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and Options
Non-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard Health
Shout-outs to our guests!
Theresa's Practice
Bob Shea's Work:
We’re back! Didya miss me? I missed you all and it's so great to be back with new episodes of the podcast. As this new season of Focus Forward begins, I’m diving right in to tackle the difficult subject of transitions, its impact on personal growth, and what can be done to better cope. To inform this conversation, I invited Rachel Hulstein-Lowe, a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you are listening to this episode months after school has started or you are not even a parent or caregiver of children, don’t worry because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time, by anyone, in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. While the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope.
Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation
Learn more about Rachel Hulstein-Lowe.
Learn more about Lisa Damour.
Mindfulness Resources
Getting started with mindfulness
Smiling Mind App
The impact of the pandemic on children
The Stolen Year by Anya Kamenetz
Effects of COVID-19 pandemic on mental health of children and adolescents: A systematic review of survey studies
Snapshot of pandemic’s mental health impact on children
Back to School Support
Back to School Anxiety
Student Stress: Untangling the Anxiety & Executive Function Connection
Exhausted by the School Year (already)? How to Get Back on Track
Can You Help My Anxious Kid?
People often think of procrastination as a time management problem, but studies show that it's actually about something much different - avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013, procrastination researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term and let their “future selves” deal with the consequences, somehow believing that their future selves will be able to handle it better. Despite the fact that putting things off may protect us from discomfort temporarily, it’s rarely the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. The potential consequences are endless and it can become a habit that holds us back form reaching our potential. That's why in this week's episode, I'm going to share a few pieces of critical information about procrastination and explore some coach-approved strategies that will hopefully help you combat this common issue. Throughout the episode, I also talk to a number of people in my life about their procrastination habits to help provide first person context to our exploration. I'm sure you'll be able to relate to many of their experiences with procrastination!
This is also the last episode in our first season of Focus Forward. We will return on October 5th and bring you more relevant topics, fascinating guests, and useful support for you as you work to develop your Executive Function skills. If I’ve learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast, it is to embrace my fear of failure. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. She says, “discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life”. Hopefully, you can find power in this quote to do the things you want to do - regardless of how scary it might be. Thanks for supporting the show and please feel free to email me at hchoi@beyondbooksmart.com if you have any suggestions for future episodes!
Here are some relevant resources related to this episode:
Why We Procrastinate
Sirois, F. and Pychyl, T. (2013) Procrastination and the Priority of Short-Term Mood Regulation: Consequences for Future Self
Why People with ADHD Procrastinate - YouTube Video with Tracey Marks
Inside the mind of a master procrastinator - a TED Talk with Tim Urban
This is the real reason you procrastinate — and how to break the habit - Read about and find the link to Adam Grant's WorkLife podcast episode on procrastination.
Tips and Tricks
Peg Dawson’s Task Initiation Obstacles Worksheets
For Students
For Adults
Steps, Time, Mapping (STM) Project Planning Worksheet A template to use for inspiration when creating your own STM.
Do You Shine Under Pressure? How to Manufacture a Sense of Urgency Tips from ADDitude on how to create fake urgency.
The Power of Imperfect Starts James Clear's article on getting started and figuring out what is necessary vs. what is optimal.
Books
It’s About Time: The Six Styles of Procrastination and How to Overcome Them by Dr. Linda Sapadin
Atomic Habits by James Clear
Eat that Frog! 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian Tracy
List of Books by Russell Barkley
Music credits:
Aso - Sunsets
leavv - Voyage
Ambient Guitar - Westlake
Purpose - Jonny Easton
GateKeeper - The Piano Says
Into the Light - Chill Acoustic Guitar
Acoustic Folk Instrumental - Hyde
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:00
Do you procrastinate?
Procrastination Consultant 1 00:01
Sometimes.
Hannah Choi 00:02
Do you know why you procrastinate?
Procrastination Consultant 1 00:04
I think I procrastinate because I just don't want to do it. And I know it's, I think it's gonna be hard.
Hannah Choi 00:09
And what do you do to get yourself going?
Procrastination Consultant 1 00:12
I pair it with something that I like doing. Like, I don't like eating spinach. So I always eat or the rice so I can't taste it.
Hannah Choi 00:22
Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And as you just heard, I am tackling the idea of procrastination in today's episode. That cutie patootie I was just talking with is my 10 year old son, and he is one of the procrastination consultants I interviewed for this episode. Throughout it, you'll hear clips of people in my life who procrastinate and if you stick around until the end, you'll hear from the one person of everyone I asked who does not procrastinate ever? I know! I was surprised to.
Hannah Choi 01:06
I was talking with my sister Julia about writing this episode. And we both agreed that there are definitely opportunities within an episode on procrastination. I make a lot of jokes about putting stuff off. You know, I could joke about procrastinating about writing this episode. Well, turns out it's no joke, I have actually found getting going on writing this episode harder than most anything else I've written. And when I thought about why this was because you know me, I love a little bit of reflection, I realized it's because I really, really want to get it right. And I have to admit that I'm afraid I won't. I mean, you're all gonna be listening to me chatter on about procrastination. And there are just so many aspects to it. And I definitely can't cover them all in one episode. And there are so many other amazing resources out there already created by all these amazing people. So how can I make sure that I'm creating and contributing something new? It's a lot. Oh, by the way, I've included some of these amazing resources in the show notes. So maybe you can procrastinate from doing your work by checking them out after you're done listening to me. Anyway, my point is that I continually put off working on the episode because of a fear of not getting it right, not getting it perfect. And fear doesn't feel good. So it makes sense that I would avoid a situation that might cause that right. People often think of procrastination as a time management problem. But studies show that it actually often comes down to doing what I did, avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013. And academic study done by some procrastination, researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term, and then let their future selves deal with the consequences. Somehow believing that these future selves will be able to handle it better. I can for sure relate to this and definitely have said, "That's a problem for Future Hannah". While it's a funny thing to say, and humor eases the decision to procrastinate a little, it's not always the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. And today, I'm going to share some ideas about procrastination and some strategies that you will hopefully find useful.
Hannah Choi 03:28
But first, let's take a quick look at the brain science behind why we avoid things. Procrastination is essentially a result of challenges with task initiation, which is the executive function skill that helps us start doing the things we need to do to get through our day. There are other EF skills that come into play here as well, such as self regulation, the ability to manage our emotions, and metacognition, which helps us understand why we do what we do or don't do in this case. As you may know, these EF skills are managed by the prefrontal cortex, which is located in the front part of our brains, tap on your forehead. It's right in there. Alright, so that's great. If we've got these prefrontal cortexes that are supposed to be helping us, why is it still so hard to get started? And this is where the helpful but sometimes ill-timed limbic system comes into the picture and starts causing havoc. One of the main things the limbic system is responsible for is helping us react quickly to situations that are dangerous or cause discomfort. And this is a good thing when you have just grabbed a hot cast iron frying pan handle. (I did this the other day!) but not so helpful when you're just trying to get your math homework started. The limbic system says, "Alert alert! Get out of here because this does not feel good". So let's check in with my procrastination consultants on this topic and see what they have to say about it.
Procrastination Consultant 2 04:58
Um, I procrastinate because As I mean, after I've had a long day at school, I have lots of homework and outside responsibilities from other things I'm a part of, and I just kind of want a break. And so I want to move my brain on to other things and not think about all that stuff because it makes me anxious, stressed out.
Procrastination Consultant 3 05:15
Often if what I need to do involves calling somebody on the telephone, or talking to somebody, I'm not always comfortable in those situations. So I'll often put off doing that.
Procrastination Consultant 4 05:30
I think I tend to procrastinate when I'm hungry or tired. Because when I do activities, when I'm hungry or tired, I'm often very hard on myself. So then I don't I don't enjoy the activity.
Hannah Choi 05:44
Okay, you can hear them say that they avoid things that cause discomfort. This is their limbic system talking. When they finally do get going. It's because their prefrontal cortex is finally stepping in and taking over the situation. The limbic system has been around since birth, and our prefrontal cortex develops last. So it kind of makes sense that our limbic systems get first dibs on our reaction to stuff we need to do. The brain chemical or neurotransmitter dopamine also plays a big part in motivation, and it can explain why we don't want to do things that are boring. It also explains why people with ADHD often have major struggles with task initiation. When we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and I'm not saying that this hard work and effort is always pleasurable, but what is pleasurable is that we received praise or good grades or some other reward, and then dopamine is produced. This dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine makes it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation, so they do not feel that motivating pleasurable feeling as much as people without ADHD. Something else interesting that I learned from reading Russell Barkley, a renowned ADHD expert, who's written a ton of books on the topic is that people with ADHD have a difficult time seeing time other than right now. So why not put off the sucky stuff and do something that gives you a nice boost of dopamine instead? If this is resonating with you, regardless of your ADHD status, you are not alone. My procrastination consultants shared that boredom was often a reason for putting off tasks.
Hannah Choi 07:36
Do you procrastinate?
Procrastination Consultant 5 07:37
100%? Absolutely. All the time!
Hannah Choi 07:40
Do you know why?
Procrastination Consultant 5 07:43
So for me, if it's not fun and creative, it's pretty much gets put on the backburner every single time. I just get bored of it. And I don't want to do it. So I won't do it.
Hannah Choi 07:53
Do you know why you procrastinate?
Procrastination Consultant 6 07:55
Because I don't want to do it because it's boring.
Procrastination Consultant 7 07:59
And generally speaking, the task itself is usually not anything incredibly difficult. But for whatever reason, it's perceived by myself as something that's dreaded. Either it's boring, or I'm not willing to devote the time to sit down and actually started.
Procrastination Consultant 8 08:26
Like, I always put bills at the top of my list. But do bills always get done. No, they never get done.
Hannah Choi 08:33
Why not?
Procrastination Consultant 8 08:33
I because I procrastinate because I hate it.
Hannah Choi 08:36
Okay, thanks for sticking with a while, explored the brain a bit. So what can we do about this? How can we battle our brains? How can we overcome that boredom? These brands of ours learn these reactions over years and years from childhood really. So it makes sense that we would react the same over time and find it difficult to change? Is there any way we can ease those uncomfortable emotions and then hack these tasks, so they're not quite so awful, and stop leaving so much undone for those future versions of ourselves.
Hannah Choi 09:08
So the other day, I counted, and there are about 5 million approaches to help with task initiation. And while I would love to share all of those 5 million ideas with you, I wouldn't have any time left to spend watching my Korean dramas instead of doing the things on my own to do list. And it would also leave you no time to do the things that you like to do instead of what you're supposed to be doing. So I've narrowed my list down from 5 million to five. I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a strategy or approach that works well for you that I don't mention in this episode, shoot me an email and I'll try to share them in a future episode, which I'm sure I'll procrastinate about, and you'll have to wait until 2024 to listen to it.
Hannah Choi 09:52
Okay. Anyway, so onto my five strategies to make task initiation a little easier and a little less painful. I'll also explain some of the EF skills that you might use for each strategy. First up, make a plan. Practicing the EF skill of planning and prioritizing is always helpful. And for some, it can really make a difference when it comes to getting started. Something we coaches hear often is that the reason our clients don't start something is because it feels so big, sometimes overwhelmingly huge, and they just don't know where to start. I bet you've probably felt that way about something before I know I should have. I really felt this writing this episode. Anyway, the simple act of breaking tasks down into steps is often the nudge that's needed just to get going. And it can also help you find a good place to start. But how do you do this in an organized and effective way. One of my favorite tools that I share with every client I've ever worked with, is called STM or steps time mapping. And I'd be willing to wager that this tool is a favorite in every EF coaches toolbox. You can find a link to a visual for this tool in the show notes. But for now, I'll just describe it to you. To create an STM you write down all the steps involved in your project. And you can get as granular as you'd like here. And then make some guesses about how much time you'll need for each. And then map it out when and maybe even where you'll do the things. Be sure to build in breaks, and maybe even some buffer time at the end, just in case something comes up and you're not able to work on the thing when you thought you'd be able to because I promise you that will happen. It can help to work backwards from the due date to figure out how much buffer time you can actually give yourself and try to be honest with yourself and realistic about how much you're likely to get done in a day. I always ask myself and my clients is this a reasonable amount of work you're asking yourself to do at this time.
Hannah Choi 11:54
And this idea leads right into my second tip for making it easier to get going. Using the EF skill of metacognition and checking in with yourself to either see how you're feeling or to figure out what barriers are keeping you from getting started can be really helpful. Take some time to figure out what time of day you're most likely to be successful in completing these tasks. In addition to the question about whether it's a reasonable amount of work, I also like to ask when are you most likely to be successful doing this thing. And it may be that you do your best work at unconventional hours so be open to considering working when most others aren't. You might be like my dear friend Bonnie, who finds two in the morning a prime time for getting work done. A tool that can be used to check in with ourselves before starting to work on something we don't want to work on is the halt strategy. And halt was originally developed to help addicts predict when they might relapse at beyond booksmart. We teach this tool to our clients to help them assess how they're doing before starting something. Okay, so H stands for hungry. A is for angry or anxious. L stands for lonely and T for tired. If you're feeling any of these things, taking care of them before getting started might help. And speaking of a for anxious, feeling anxious about doing nothing can really get in the way of getting started. If you're experiencing a lot of anxiety, it might be helpful to get some support from a therapist. If you're not sure where to start, reach out to your doctor and they can provide some guidance. It can also be helpful to do some reflection and ask why you're procrastinating at this particular moment. What is stopping you? Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and a guest on a previous episode of this podcast has an excellent activity that might help you figure out why you're procrastinating and come up with a plan to get past that stuck feeling. Her tool is linked in the show notes. So please check it out.
Hannah Choi 13:58
Okay, so next up is to be sure to create a good environment, it's worthwhile to take some time to consider steps that you can take to set yourself up for success. The EF skills of self regulation, flexible thinking and organization come into play here. So you could pair the thing that you don't want to do with something that you do like to do. You could fold that dreaded laundry while watching a show. You might want to consider choosing a show you've seen before or when that you won't get sucked into. You could listen to music or an audio book while you mow the lawn or try out a new podcast on your morning run.
Hannah Choi 14:35
You can work with a buddy this strategy is called body doubling. Make sure it's someone who won't distract you from your work or give you a hard time if you're struggling to stay focused. A college client of mine has identified two friends of hers with whom she can study and they're motivated to study which helps her get into it. You can make sure you have a special snack that comforts you or one that you can just use as a reward. Maybe every time you finish A paragraph or even just a sentence on that paper you've been struggling with, you get to eat some m&ms. It can also help to take some time to set up a good workspace. Make sure you've got the supplies you need and good lighting. Wearing noise cancelling headphones can help if you're in a noisy area, or you have to share a workspace and maybe try putting up a Do Not Disturb sign. This can let others know that you're trying to get stuff done. For some people changing up your location can help. So maybe try working at the public library or at a friend's house, or even just out on your back deck.
Hannah Choi 15:32
Okay, next up, start small and stay small! The tool I mentioned before that STM that's a great example of starting small, the first step of using that tool is to break your big task down into small tasks. Time management, planning and prioritizing are the EF skills that come up most of this strategy. If I'm having trouble getting started on something I'm writing like this episode, for example, I always make an outline. And my outline doesn't even start off looking like an actual outline, I just do a messy brain dump. And I type some words that come to me on the page. And actually, you don't even have to type. You can use voice recognition software. If you're working in Google Docs, turn on the Google Voice type in the Tools menu. And you can just dump the contents of your brain right onto the paper without even lifting a finger. You can also use a speech to text app right on your phone. Another great strategy that many Beyond BookSmart coaches share with their clients is the beloved Five-Minute Goals. This is such a great strategy because it both gets you to do the thing, but it also gives you an out. You only have to do the thing for five minutes or even two minutes if five feels like too long. Okay, so you set a timer and do the thing when the timer goes off, I'm willing to bet you that you'll experience what my daughter shared.
Procrastination Consultant 4 16:57
Well, sometimes I like to say just do it for a minute, because then eventually I'll forget about it and just keep going.
Hannah Choi 17:06
Okay, if I'm wrong, and you can't relate to what she said, and you find yourself praising the timer gods and being glad that the five minutes is over, maybe it's not a great time for you to do the thing anyway. We know that starting small is essential and so is continuing this approach while you work. Continually breaking things down into small chunks is a great way to help yourself get through the things you don't want to do. Don't expect your effort to be effective for hours without a break. And if you discover a new task within the larger thing that you're doing, be sure to break that down to
Hannah Choi 17:43
Okay, My fifth tip goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how I was struggling to get started on this podcast because I wasn't sure if I could do it the right way. So my advice is to try to be okay with imperfection, which to some of you is gonna sound impossible. I know. I totally get it. This is personally what often gets in the way of me getting started. self regulation and flexible thinking are two of the EF skills that can help one of my favorite books about procrastination. It's about time by Linda Sapadin. In it Dr. Sapadin writes about how perfectionist procrastinators are aiming for you guessed it perfection. And since they know that the risk of failing to reach perfection is extremely high, they may put the thing off entirely to avoid failure, or wait until last minute so they can blame what they see as an imperfect product on something else other than themselves. If this resonates with you, you might try working on striving for excellence instead of perfection. High performing successful athletes are coached for this and it works. So go for really great not perfect.
Hannah Choi 18:56
Dr. Sapadin suggests changing your language, instead of saying "I should do this thing". Try saying "I could do this thing". This shifts your thinking from seeing the thing that you have to do as a burden to seeing it from a viewpoint of realism and choice. I feel like you could use this change in language as an opportunity to throw in some of the other strategies here too. "I should write this episode on procrastination" becomes "I could write this episode on procrastination sitting on the back deck rewarding myself with five m&ms after I finished a sentence". Excuse me while I go raid my kids' Halloween candy.
Hannah Choi 19:36
I think a lot of perfectionist procrastinators would likely benefit from some reflection on their relationship with failure. Like I said in the episode on failure, when scientists do experiments to create or test something they don't look for perfection right away. If they did, nothing would ever get invented. Right? One of my favorites, James Clear who is the author of Atomic Habits wrote a great article on his blog about this idea, you can find the link to the article in the show notes. And in it, he encourages us to be honest with ourselves and figure out what is needed versus what is optimal. Yeah, of course, we'd love to be able to dive into something with everything all perfect. So we can have this perfect outcome, but it's just not realistic. And it's also not as interesting, we learn a heck of a lot more about the thing that we're tackling and about ourselves. And we actually allow ourselves to create without fear of imperfection, the results of this are actually just beautifully messy iterations of the thing we're working towards, they're stepping stones towards something we can be happy with. And creating space for these iterations can't happen if we leave things to the last minute, right. Many of my procrastination consultants said they rely on urgency.
Procrastination Consultant 2 20:55
Most of the time, it's deadlines. And like a sense of urgency that makes me makes me want to do it.
Procrastination Consultant 5 21:02
Deadlines. Usually, that's what motivates me, I just have no more time left to put it off. And then I have to do it. And I also just like to work under pressure. It just gives me that adrenaline to get it done.
Procrastination Consultant 3 21:15
What I do to get going, is either come up against a deadline where I have no choice, and I simply have to do it. No excuses.
Procrastination Consultant 9 21:25
I think it's because I'm motivated by deadlines and I only will start to start a project or something. If I'm moving close that deadline, and I get anxiety inducing effects of that. And that motivates me to then start.
Procrastination Consultant 10 21:40
I think deadlines approaching faster, like I will absolutely do it. When it's like okay, I can do this, and it's due in 10 minutes, or I need to do this by tomorrow, then I'll finally, that's what forces me honestly, nothing else will get me to do it. Unless the deadline is like, right there.
Hannah Choi 21:58
I'm guessing that many of you listening are nodding your head saying Yep, that's me. You may like working this way. And if you do, you'll hear no judgement from me. I do encourage you to keep listening though there may be a way to break free from the urgency reliance.
Hannah Choi 22:13
Okay, let's jump back into our brains for a sec. Remember that limbic system from the beginning of this episode? Well, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, and it's responsible for the flight or fight response you've likely heard of, and probably experienced, well, waiting till the last minute and relying on urgency to get stuff done is stressful, whether we realize it or not. And it causes our brains to be hijacked by the amygdala. And during an amygdala hijack, our bodies release stress hormones, which are not great. So out of concern for your beautiful brains and your healthy bodies, I challenge those of you who use urgency as a motivator to experiment with not relying on urgency with not waiting for that adrenaline to kick in and force you to get the work done. I totally get that this may seem utterly impossible to you. Or you might not even be interested in trying, but at least hear me out. If you feel like you must absolutely rely on urgency, you might try building in fake urgency. Of course, this requires you to basically trick yourself into thinking the thing needs to be done earlier than it truly does, which I admit sounds pretty difficult. But try just try starting something just like a tiny bit earlier than you normally would use some of the strategies I just explored, especially the ones where you work to break the large tasks down into smaller tasks. These mini deadlines can help. And this is also why building in that buffer time I mentioned earlier in the episode is so helpful. With buffer time, we can adjust how small our steps are. Some days you're going to be feeling ultra-productive and others will just be a slog. giving ourselves the space to keep things small can really help on those days. But leaving it to the last minute doesn't allow for that and then we have to push through regardless of how we feel. This strategy is what works well for me. If I leave things to the last minute my anxiety takes over and makes it so I can't even do a task at all. One of my consultants shared that she experiences this too.
Procrastination Consultant 10 24:25
Packing and stuff? I knew I needed to start packing I didn't procrastinate because I'm like, oh, that's gonna stress me out if I wait too late. I don't know I'd like selective procrastination.
Hannah Choi 24:34
If you aren't able to break free from urgency and start even just a tiny bit earlier, use your metacognition to notice how you feel and notice the quality of your work. I'm willing to wager a good amount of m&ms that you'll have a better experience feel better about your work and in turn feel better about yourself.
Hannah Choi 24:57
This is the last episode of our first You send a focus forward, and we will return on October 5, and will bring you more interesting topics, fascinating guests and support for you as you work to develop your executive function skills. If I have learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast it is to embrace my fear of failure. It has taken a lot of work and it will continue to take a lot of work. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. And Susan says "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And this podcast has added more meaning to my life than I ever imagined and it was one of the hardest and most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I have to admit that this episode in particular was originally scheduled for much earlier in this podcast season. But in an ironic twist due to scheduling changes, and my own perfectionist procrastination tendencies, it ended up being the perfect topic for the last episode of the season. I know my lesson here is to not go for perfection, but sometimes you end up with it when you just try for excellence.
Hannah Choi 26:13
I can't even begin to thank you, our listeners enough for all the support you've given me and my podcast team over the past 11 episodes. I want to personally thank Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, Mimi Fernandez and Jackie Hebert for all of their help from the beginning. And special thanks to Annabel Furber, Barbara Garvin-Kester, Denise McMahon, John Frank and Michael Delman for their help on this episode. And a very, very special shout out for my procrastination consultants who also happen to be very special people in my life: Graham, Eliza, Bonnie, Isabelle, Nikolai, Justice, Maura, Julia, Aidan, Lynette, and William. And as always, thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we've covered in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with the special people in your life. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when the first episode of the new season drops and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening. Oh, and I didn't forget - here's Maura sharing her experience with procrastination, or should I say not procrastinating?
Hannah Choi 27:34
Do you procrastinate?
Procrastination Consultant 11 27:35
Never, never. No, no, no, I'm like the kind of person. If I have something to do, I have to do. Why, why I do tomorrow if I can do now or today?
Despite being a common diagnosis, many people with ADHD may go most of their lives without ever officially being diagnosed. Although there are a number of challenges that this presents, one of the most frustrating is that the longer ADHD is left untreated, the more difficult it becomes to change our habits. Even so, that doesn't mean it's impossible - and our guest today proves it!
For this week's episode, I invited Bob Shea - a renowned children's author who only recently received an ADHD diagnosis at age 52 - to talk about the trials and triumphs he experienced living with hidden ADHD for so long. Although Bob has some legitimate regrets about not getting diagnosed sooner, he's worked hard to address his challenge areas and make meaningful transformations in his habits. As a result, Bob has seen major improvements in both his personal and professional life that he's excited to share with our listeners. He also reveals the tools, systems, and interventions that helped him along the way. His contributions to the podcast reveal an important lesson - it's never too late to get the support we need to become the best version of ourselves.
I know you'll enjoy listening to Bob's advice, wit, and humor just as much as I did during our conversation.
Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation:
ADHD Resources
On-Demand Webinar: ADHD Fundamentals - What you need to succeed after diagnosis: This is the link to a webinar Beyond BookSmart held recently. If you register, you’ll gain instant access to the webinar.
8 Things You Need to Know About ADHD After a Diagnosis: A blog that summarizes key points from the webinar linked above.
ADHD Information for Adults: This website includes information on medication and non-medication approaches to managing ADHD.
How To ADHD YouTube Channel: An amazing channel that tries to both normalize and help support the trials and tribulations of living with ADHD.
Dr. Tracey Marks - Skills Training for ADHD Playlist: A fantastic psychologist and content creator with invaluable insights on living with ADHD.
Other Stuff We Discussed
Bob's Planning and Time Management Strategy Here's a pic of Bob's notebook so you can see how he lays out his tasks and week.
The Sam Harris Meditation App: This is the meditation app that Bob likes to use every morning.
Jetpens.com: Bob's favorite place to shop for pens online.
The Pomodoro Technique: 25 Minutes to Increase Productivity: This is the time management approach called the Pomodoro Method that Bob uses. We also use it as coaches!
Leuchtturm1917 Notebook: This is the notebook I use for my bullet journal.
Time Timer Visual Clock: This is the visual timer that I asked Bob about and then he showed me his which he had on the desk next to him.
River Fox BuJo: My daughter’s Pinterest account I mentioned in the episode
Bob Shea's Instagram and Website
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
When my kids were little, we spent hours at our local library and we'd go home with 50 or so books at a time. We especially loved picture books that made us laugh. And one day we discovered an author called Bob Shea, and Bob's books quickly became some of our favorites. Thanks to the internet, we found out that Bob also lived in our home state of Connecticut. We followed him on Instagram and really enjoyed his drawing tutorials and quirky posts. And Bob started inviting other children's authors and illustrators to have a conversation with him on Instagram Live every Friday. And one day he had author and illustrator Charles Santoso on for a chat. And Bob openly and very candidly shared about his experience having ADHD. He talked about the time management strategies that he uses, and how important they are for him. I knew at that very moment that I just had to invite Bob on to be a guest on the podcast. So today, I've got you a very entertaining and very real conversation about how ADHD impacts his life, how medication really helped and the tools and strategies that he uses to find satisfaction in his life. And I'm really thrilled to share Bob's story with you today. Before we jump in, I want to acknowledge that not everyone with ADHD uses medication. And whatever choice people make about medication is theirs and theirs alone. There are alternative options for those who choose not to use it. And for those who do use it, they likely find that it doesn't work well just on its own. As you'll hear Bob say it works well for him because he combines it with other non medication strategies. If you are interested in learning more, check out the show notes for more reading and resources on this topic. Okay, now on to the show. Okay. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. Do you wanna introduce yourself to our listeners?
Bob Shea 02:10
Sure. My name is Bob Shea. I'm a children's book author and illustrator. And I found out that I had ADHD when I was 52.
Hannah Choi 02:24
Did you, did you won...have you had you wondered before in your life?
Bob Shea 02:30
I not in a serious way. It was probably the six months before I was diagnosed that I really started to think that it was more than just character flaws.
Hannah Choi 02:51
Did something happen? Was there like a some kind of shift in your thinking or something that got you to start with questioning that?
Bob Shea 03:00
There were two things I did start following some ADHD accounts on Instagram. That was one thing. So that put it on my radar pretty strong. And what would happen was or what happened I remember specifically, someone did a real that had symptoms of ADHD that I had never known would have been things and it was exactly how my brain works like exactly. And it wasn't the traditional. This is what ADHD is why because my the one of the reasons I one of the reasons I didn't think that I had it was because I know people who you know, in five minutes, you're like, Man, this conversation is 20 different subjects. And my my brothers both have it in and in the three of us it presents differently. So that was difficult. I'm not hyperactive, I don't have any of the traditional things. My my thoughts about ADHD were Bart Simpson, bad student acting up can't sit still. I was I did well in school. I wasn't a troublemaker at all. None of those things. So I was like, I don't have any of that stuff. And then there was a day when I was trying to finish a project I was trying to finish a book that I had do. And I couldn't do it like I couldn't pick up my iPad and open up the file and start... like it was due it was like that safety net of, of a looming deadline did not fail to ignite the fire. And I was scrolling on the Instagram instead. Like, compulsively. I was like I can't stop doing this. I'm look I was like I need some kind of stimulation that and the the I was I'm looking forward to doing the book. Like it was not like Yay, I'm gonna do this book and I'm excited finally gonna get to dig in. I've avoided it and I, I made an appointment for the next day with my, with my doctor with a physician's assistant. I went home and told my wife and she was like, Yeah, that's a really good idea.
Hannah Choi 05:23
She's like, finally the day has come.
Bob Shea 05:24
She was like, yeah, she was like, Man, she got the worst of it over the years, I'll tell you. So, yeah, so then I went to the, you know, when I went to this appointment, and I almost cancelled it. I was like, you know, just do your work. I'm sure you're fine. She's gonna let I had gone to her one time for Xanax because I had to go on tour. And I didn't want to talk to people that asked for like, I'm like, Look, I just need, I don't take it normally. Like, she has my records. Like, I'm not a drug seeker. But I was like, I'm traveling, I got to talk to people. I need some Xanax. And she was reluctant to give it to me, and like really gave me a hard time about it. And so I was like, she's not going to do anything for this ADHD, she's gonna laugh at me. She's like, come back when you break an arm. That's what I thought it was gonna be when you have when you're bleeding. Give me a call, like not for this. Boo hoo hoo, you can't get your work done. But she was really, really empathetic. And I had I had in the three months prior stop drinking, because it was a pandemic, and I was getting really heavy. Yeah. I was exercising every day. And I was, I had cut sugar out. And I was meditating a lot. I'm a big meditator. And so I went down the litany of what was happening, and that I had that I had and hadn't been doing these things in the last three months. And she said, everything you just said is what I would have told you to do. I would have said, eat better exercise and meditate. She said, if you're doing that stuff, and then she gave me an assessment, and I was laughing, because it was like, they were watching me during my day. I was like, Yes. Like, that's what I do every time. Yeah, they're like, do you like not? Do you get really close to the end of a project and not finish? I'm like, there's something new to do here. Like, right? I'm like, Yeah, you know, like everybody does that like, no, not everybody. And she put me on Adderall right away. And it was flipped, like flipping a switch. It was great. It's wonderful. I know it doesn't work for everyone. And everyone has their own way of treating it. But for me, my wife was like, thank God.
Hannah Choi 07:48
That's awesome. Yeah, that's so great. It's so great that you that you didn't let the part of you that wanted to not go that that part didn't get its chance. And you just went anyway and talked with her. Yeah. Well, I mean, I actually know that a lot of people are afraid to find out because they don't want to find out that that, that they have X, Y or Z. And but I'm sure it has been your experience. Once you find out it actually can really open up a lot of doors and opportunities and possibilities and totally different way of thinking about yourself.
Bob Shea 08:23
Just Yeah, I saw my, the past 50 years of my life and an entirely different light. And I was like, Man, why did anybody put up with that guy? He was the worst. I was, I was so glad I actually was birth because I was like, man, like,my life would have been so much different. Had I known that I could have been fixed. But you know, and then the other thing is like, both of my brothers have it. They don't want to do anything about it. Like they like it. And I'm like, really? I'm like I would I can't get rid of it fast enough. I'm like this is I don't I don't spin this into a positive thing at all. For me personally, I'm like, I have I could get I could have been high. Who knows what my life would be like, if I didn't have it? It's not it's not some secret power that I have.
Hannah Choi 09:18
Right? Right. But like we were talking before we started recording, don't you feel like it has given you some of the creativity that you've needed to to create the do the stuff that you've done, create the books that you've done and
Bob Shea 09:34
yeah, I'm, I'm hesitant to give that so much credit because, but I'll tell you I think that that's true. I think that it allowed me to say, see to make connections I wouldn't have made otherwise when I was coming up with things and what it did was it gave me a unique voice creatively, my sense of humor is very unique to me, for good or for bad. I'm not saying that it's better or worse than anyone. But I'm saying when I write jokes or make a joke, it's comes out of left field. And it's not, Oh, I see what he's doing when he's doing this. It's very strange, for better or worse, but I'll tell you all the things that it didn't wear me all the things that it did for me, I would trade it to be have had a normal life, because I think it was a million times a detriment than it was, then then whatever it gave me.
Hannah Choi 10:39
Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah,
Bob Shea 10:41
If I was sitting right now in my office up in Hartford, Connecticut, as executive of insurance company, in the HR department being like, you know, we have a lot of events coming up. And we have to do these things in a nice, neat desk. I'd love nothing more.
Hannah Choi 11:00
Well, I have to say that I'm really glad that you did not discover your ADHD until you were 52. And I think that there are lots and lots of children in the world that are really glad you didn't. And lots of parents.
Bob Shea 11:12
Well, I appreciate you saying that. But you know,
Hannah Choi 11:15
So if you look at your life, since you were diagnosed, since you started, like, you know, taking Adderall and just being okay, I have a diagnosis. This is this is why do you see Have you seen the change? Could you compare the like before and after?
Bob Shea 11:33
It's night and day, I mean, that there's there's work things like like right now, I'm as busy as I've ever been in my career. Right now, for the last two months, and probably going into the next couple of weeks, I have so much to do. And it's fine. Like, it's not, I'll have to work this evening, I'll have to get up early in work. But it's fine. I can. I can see it for what it is. I it's not overwhelming things. I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed all the time. And that affected my relationship with my family. Because nobody can talk to me. Because you have so much going on in your head. That is all equally important. That was the thing. Everything you had to do was just as important as the other next thing, which actually wasn't as important. So when my wife would come in the room and go, Hey, what should we have for dinner? I'd be like, how can you come in here and add another thing to this pile that's in my head, right? And now I'm just I'm so much more pleasant to be around. I was irritable all the time. I was I thought I thought it was over. I thought I thought I was going to I thought we were going to split up because it may like we didn't talk about it. But in my head. I was like head in my head. I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. But I can't be around people.
Hannah Choi 13:04
Do you think that it was it's mostly that medicine that has changed things for you?
Bob Shea 13:11
Yes, you know, yeah, because, but that but there's I have to explain that a little bit. I do think that that's the case because I wanted to change. I didn't want to be like that. I knew that I was I knew that I was a jerk. And I knew that I was impatient, and that I couldn't she on the weekends. She'd be honest. She's like, you know, when you're home on the weekend, all you want to do is be at work. I know that you're I know that you're not happy. I couldn't, I couldn't relax. I couldn't go just do something. And it was because I thought I had failed the previous week, getting things done. And so I was trying to always try to catch up. I was always trying to catch up. The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners. So always had calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this? And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill. I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do. Because you're so bad at it. Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Choi 14:32
So what's what kind of systems and strategies do work for you?
Bob Shea 14:36
It's sort of a it's sort of a mix of a lot of different systems that I had found. But But basically, it's capturing all the information in your head. So I I just did it this morning because it's Monday. I usually do it on Sundays. I write down everything I have to do that week like and it's all in a big pile. So it can be work on this illustration. And the next thing could be make an appointment for a haircut. Like it's not there's no over here you put work and over here you put it it's it's a, it's a messy list on the page next to that I put big blocks because I have to see things and I can't do this on the computer, I have to write it down with my hands, or else. It all looks the same on the computer. It's just like typed words. It could be anything. Yep. And now, because a draw, we're like writing a list, you can draw a little picture of something. Oh, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So then I, so then I do the days of the week next to that, just horizontal bars of Monday through Friday. And then I drop in roughly, where what I'm going to do on what day really rough like not like you at three o'clock are going to do this. Yes. Then when the day comes...this all sounds so complicated. And it's not. Then on the day I draw a box for every half hour of the day, I make a list, I make a list, I'm going to I'm like, I'm going to work on this. And I'm going to work on this and I make a box for every half hour of the day and I write in the box, what I'm going to work on at what time and it's it is very flexible. If I don't, I'm okay with that. But I have to just know that I have a plan. I will not make this punitive because I will be mad at it. So it's to help me it is not to punish me ever. And one of the things that I did it first, or one of the things that helped the time while blindness was so bad because I'd be like I have a book to I'll take me two days, I don't know, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I had no concept. So what, so what I do is I write what I plan to do in that in those blocks time. Then when they pass, I go, and I don't do it immediately. Like at the end of the day, I'll say, Boy, I thought that thing was going to take me an hour and a half took me three hours. That's awesome. So I'm training myself to know what things really take like, oh, going to the post office, that's probably negative 20 minutes. Like, really, you gotta get an envelope, gotta find the right size envelope, you got to pick up the address the person gave you you got to seal it, you got to walk down, there's probably going to be aligned, you know, you're gonna get a coffee after because you did an errand and you need a treat. And then you know, by the time you get back, like how long did that trip to the post office, it takes an hour. And then you have to be like, alright, you have to go to the post office today that costs an hour. Like and then you know, because then you're like, then you're not, you overestimate what you can get done. And then at the end of the day, you feel terrible. You're like, you beat yourself up and you're like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, Yeah, you know?
Hannah Choi 17:48
Yeah, time blindness is a really big. It can, it can really impact so many aspects of your life like, like actually just running out of time. But then also the your opinion that you have it yourself. Yeah, if you constantly are not estimating the time correctly, then you're just gonna feel like you can't get anything done.
Bob Shea 18:12
Yeah, yeah. And as a result as a result of doing that. And the medication I don't take on as much. Yeah, ever. Because now when I see so if I'm sitting here, and I go online, or whatever, and I go, Hey, look at little felted animals, looks fun. I could get some felt. And I'm gonna make little, like penguins and foxes. It'll be adorable. I'm a children's book author. I should be doing this whimsical stuff all day. And then you go and you look that stuff up. And you buy felts and you got felting needles and stuff. And then you're like, how am I going to do this? And then the reality hits.
Hannah Choi 18:55
It's just so funny because my other my other job is I, I teach fiber arts classes with a friend of mine and that's like exactly what we do!
Bob Shea 19:07
Right? But it looks really fun. I have the needles here. I in my closet, I have the needles. But now I see that and I go Yeah, that'd be fun if you have time because and the only reason I say this because I'm like, Well, what are you going to do the other 20 things I taught myself that. Agreeing to do something means you're saying you're not going to do something else. Right? And I'm talking to the guitar in my corner. Okay?
Hannah Choi 19:37
Just this morning, I was talking to a client and he, he is an adult who was also recently diagnosed with ADHD. And he was talking about how, like for work he's doing really great like staying on to on on track and not taking on too much. You know, and checking like, Is this realistic? Like if my you know, am I is it realistic to take on another client or whatever. And then and then we were talking about how you also have to kind of do that in your, you know, in the in the fun things. Like you, you, you might want to make the felted animals and play the guitar and you know, be really good at all these things. But if you would you ask you have to ask yourself the same thing you ask yourself with your work, like, is it realistic to take on all of these things? If you if you take on too much, you can't do it all and then you just beat yourself up?
Bob Shea 20:29
Yeah, that's the thing. I could enjoy none of the things. Yeah. And all it was was another source of tension with my wife, because it's like, my half done projects were all over the place. And she was like, can you just throw this out? Now just bring it to Goodwill, or give it to somebody throw it away? And she was right. But I mean, I was like, I was like, I'm gonna make that it's gonna be great. And that's the other thing too with ADHD, you can't be bad at things. Like if I played guitar, I was like, I'm gonna be really good at it. So I didn't say that with guitar, but with most most things. I'm like, I don't want to just, I don't want to do this half measure. I want to be good at it. It's like, Well, yeah. And again, with the paying attention to how long things take. I'm like, I can't do anything else.
Hannah Choi 21:15
Yeah, right.
Bob Shea 21:16
I'm full! Like even with work, I'm like, when are you gonna do all these amazing?
Hannah Choi 21:21
There's only so many hours in a day. Yeah. And you have to sleep and you have to eat and you have to have some downtime.
Bob Shea 21:27
Yeah, I belong to a Makerspace in New Haven. And it's good and it's bad, because it's great because I can go there for the day. And I'm like, I'm just doing this and I enjoy it. And I I said to my... I stopped putting up requirements on myself. I'm like, when I go in, you're gonna fail at all the things and not walk out with a wooden, whatever you were making. You're going to walk out with your materials all ruin that you paid for. And just and but I'm like, That's the day that's fine. And the other thing, the other other reason it's bad is because they keep getting new stuff, which Oh, wow, you guys gotta chill. So I could do pottery? Oh, my gosh, I'm looking at slip casting. And what do I need? What do I need to buy for this? Man, I'm like that. So now I'm like, ignore that, don't learn how to use the tablesaw
Hannah Choi 22:23
You're getting a lot of practice of saying no.
Bob Shea 22:25
I am! I'm just ignoring stuff. I'm like, I let me tell you, I hate Pre-Adderall Guy so much, that I'm saying no out of spite. I'm like, you don't deserve to make pottery. Help bring another thing into the house. You. I see you back there. You know, because it's still I'm still the same thing. Like my brain still is seeking those that stimulation to like, it's still dopamine, when I'm like, a new thing to learn. There's a lot of dopamine in that goldmine of dopamine. So passing that up as Adderall makes you say, you've got enough to get by. You don't need to go look for other places, even social media. I'm on social media so much less. I used to be on Twitter all the time.
Hannah Choi 23:17
So going back to the strategies that you use, how did you develop those? How'd you come up with those?
Bob Shea 23:22
Even before the Adderall, I was obsessed with time management. Always, always, always, always, unsuccessfully. I remember in the 90s, A long time ago, I went and did a Franklin Planner thing. And I think I kept a Franklin Planner for a while, like for a year, probably about a year and then I had to refill it. And I'm like, fellas, I'm gonna have to do that anymore. But I always remember the sort of the principles and stuff. And I remember now thinking back, like it's not ADHD friendly. Like they're very, it's very, like, it's for people who already have their act together. And it's just a way to clean up their act.
Hannah Choi 24:08
Those linear thinkers
Bob Shea 24:09
It's so I always thought it's always like, something wrong with me. I thought I always thought it was like a character failing that I had, I was like, Well, you know, I was like, You know what, I always hated sports. When I was growing up, I probably just don't have discipline. And that's a now that's why they always wanted you to do that, so that you could do a boring task that you didn't want to do. And then, so I had an even I was even going back to the makerspace I was designing all these electronics, things that were all about how to remind me to do things. Every one thing, I had a thing where I'm still making this one, and that's not me lying, it's my first project. I was gonna have more successful authors than may record a message to me like, "Hey, how's that book coming you were telling me about?" Yeah, and then randomly during the day, it would announce that whatever I was doing was like, Oh, I was looking at felted animals. Back to work, yeah. I had I have it all sketched out, like, how it works. And the components I need, but everything I did everything I was like, seriously, I was like, I'm going to film, because I didn't know how the day worked. I'm going to film this was an idea of flowers, drying and decaying and falling off the thing. And then I'm going to play it fast during the day over eight hours, so that when I looked up, I go, Oh, the things are starting to fall. That means I have this much time. I was trying to, I was trying to find ways to look at time visually that I'd understand and not like just a clock, which I'm like, that's just the number I don't know. Because you come in in the beginning of the day, and you're like, I have all day. You know, and you're like, well, and then you're like, Well, I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go take a walk. And then I'm like, Jesus running out real quick.
Hannah Choi 26:06
Yeah, like half a day now. Have you heard of the Time timers were like shows a red...like, It's like, it looks like a clock. And yeah. That right there. Do you use it?
Bob Shea 26:19
Sorry about that noise. That's part of my thing with with the, with the blocks that I draw out the half hour blocks, 25 minutes, because it's the Pomodoro Technique, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Are you if that is the I'll tell you something. The timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm, I'm diligent about using the timers. That's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today. It's like it's not a bad day, it still works falls apart a lot easier. Those timers, because it gives you a little deadline. Yep. And you look at that thing. And you're right, like the visual thing for me was huge. And so for that deadline, I go, I tell myself, you can't look at your phone, because you're working. And so then that way I go, Well, there's only 15 minutes, I can not look at my phone for 15 minutes. But if I don't have the time, or it's every three minutes up, pick it up. Yeah, I'm better about it now, but that's how it works. I also blocked Instagram on everything but my laptop so that when I sit down, it's intentional. Like I'm gonna go on Instagram now. Look at messages I do. scroll a little bit. It's boring on your laptop. You're not on the sofa looking at TV and doing it. So I'm out faster. I'm in and out faster. And and then on my devices for work. Like my iPad. No. No social media. Still the news? I still look at the news all the time. But no social media. Yeah. Pinterest is great. I like Pinterest. Yes.
Hannah Choi 27:57
It is great. My daughter is like slowly racking up a whole bunch of followers. She does bullet journaling. Yeah, she does. She does bullet journal. She has this bullet journal. She's 13 years old. And she's really starting everyday. She's like, Oh, I have like 20 more followers. She's up to 350! Yeah, it's so cool. But she like shares like her that art the art that she did it for the week and how she laid it out. And
Bob Shea 28:24
Does she get this she get... she's been to like JetPens, right? And she gets all this stuff from
Hannah Choi 28:29
I don't know what JetPens is. But she's got all the pens.
Bob Shea 28:32
Sorry, I told you because oh, there's a whole other world of pens you don't know about
Hannah Choi 28:38
JetPens, okay, I gotta write that down.
Bob Shea 28:39
So good. I love I love that stuff. And like pencil cases and like pencil sharpeners that look like pandas.
Hannah Choi 28:48
And you guys could talk for hours. She's totally into it.
Bob Shea 28:52
So So I give her a lot of credit, because I couldn't keep up with a bullet journal. My thing is like black ink and then read for like, what I really did, because I'm like, I had to pare it down to a simpler.
Hannah Choi 29:04
Yeah. Well, I keep a bullet journal too. But mine is also like, super. It's just like, there's nothing fancy
Bob Shea 29:11
Yeah, that's what mine looks like. Yeah. And you have the same you have that kind to Yeah. Yeah, my wife made minus 10 or something.
Hannah Choi 29:20
Yeah, yeah. I
Bob Shea 29:20
don't know how you say it. I use those a lot for other things. But I don't but I use a different I just use a grid. Very simple one because I go through so many of them.
Hannah Choi 29:30
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping systems like that requires some practice. It requires quite a bit of perseverance and quite a bit of, you know, discipline. What motivates you to stick with it?
Bob Shea 29:49
This I think what, what motivates me to stick with it is that, like I said before, it's not punitive. It's not it's not it's here to help me not make me feel bad. So as I use it things that don't work for me, it was a little more not complicated. There were more, there was more to it when I first started doing it, anything that didn't sort of serve me I got rid of. So now it's like, it's a way to collect my thoughts. It's not a way to to be a taskmaster that you have to do these things. At the end of the day, a lot of times, I'll have gotten made a lot of progress on things, but maybe not even the things I thought I was going to do. And then I'm like, that's still a good day, I made a lot of progress. And I'm proud of what I did. Like, I'm glad that I moved the needle on this project. The other project can wait a day, because I have long deadlines. You know, like, I don't usually I think, like when I was doing graphic design, like maybe I didn't notice it much because it was like That thing's due in two days, like and it would be like in the next week, something else would be due now. It's like months at a time. That's bad for people like me.
Hannah Choi 31:01
Long term planning is like a whole different set of skills that
Bob Shea 31:04
I'm still working on that that is like, time makes no sense to me. Three months, like, that's never gonna happen. It's never gonna be here.
Hannah Choi 31:14
Have you ever watched inside the mind of a master procrastinator with Tim Urban? He, it's a TED Talk that...
Bob Shea 31:22
Yes, I think so! He has he does his thesis in the last day. That was hilarious. Yeah. So good. Before I knew I had ADHD. Yeah, it's hilarious!
Hannah Choi 31:35
it's a great, that's such a great example of exactly what you just.
Bob Shea 31:41
Yeah, yeah. It's like, and it's, I'm not. I so I just turned in a book. A couple of, I'm in the revision process of it now. And I was proud of myself. Because it was only two weeks late, instead of three months, like yeah, I was real- And I'm sure they are, but it was a new art director and I don't think that they were as proud of me as I am.
Hannah Choi 32:05
You're like, you don't know what this means.
Bob Shea 32:08
Like, I'm like, checking outside to see if the UPS guys bring in like, you know, a Harry and David box gift basket. Two weeks late, two weeks late, not three months. Like, oh, look, guess who's almost like a normal person?
Hannah Choi 32:26
That's so great.
Bob Shea 32:27
I have friends who are like, Yeah, this isn't due till September. So I finished it early, so I could get out some other things. I'm like, What are you talking about? I've never, ever done that. Ever. That's the thing. I had a friend who told me he did that. And then I was telling him about the ADHD. And he's like, maybe I have ADHD. I said, let's take a step back. Yeah. Remember how you told me? You just finished something up? That's not due for three months? No, no, no, no. I'm not a medical professional, but no.
Hannah Choi 33:01
So funny. What do you think would happen if you turned something in on time?
Bob Shea 33:06
I might have no, I don't know. I have no idea what that's like, I think that I'm gonna tell you though, I see the I see the benefit of doing that. This sounds so dumb. This sounds like such a, Are you new to being in the world? Like, if I so working alone and making up my own projects and things it's like, it's it's so much more helpful to me to have a system and try to get in on time. Because that frees up time for other things. Not felted animals, other projects that could maybe make money, right? Like there's, I mean, it's a balance with the kids books, because I can't, I can't have people be like, Man, he's cranking these things out once again. You right, you know what I mean? Like,
Hannah Choi 33:57
Can't be too productive!
Bob Shea 33:58
Good, right, like, have a side hustle. I can drive for Uber in those two weeks. That's what I could have been doing.
Hannah Choi 34:08
No, no, Bob.
Bob Shea 34:10
I don't think that's not a good idea.
Hannah Choi 34:11
You obviously did something different to get your three week overdue and a three month overdueness down to two week, two weeks overdue. What do you do different?
Bob Shea 34:20
That was that that's the last piece that I'm working on now. What is the long term plan? I can't I don't understand how time works. I don't get that. You know, I don't get that. Laters not does not a thing. Laters Not a thing. And it's not better than now. Like the way I behave now? Yeah, I'm gonna behave like that tomorrow. Like, I'm like, I can be like, Oh, tomorrow when I wake up, I'm gonna be all put together. You know what I mean? So now this machine that I've made that can kind of not a very fast moving thing. It's it's constantly pressing forward, which is good and not speedy. But so it's only recently that I've acknowledged that the future is going to happen, whether I like it or not. So I start to use. So now I am using a calendar. On my computer, which I don't like to do, I should actually get a physical one. And I'm writing in dates things are due so that I can see them approach. Yeah, that's good. I know that I have something due on August 1. And I'm already obsessed about it not obsessed. But I'm already like, if you don't get started on July 1, you're never going to get that done. I know that that's and I'm like, I can't. Last minute panic. It gets old after 50 years. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 35:47
Takes the wear and tear on your body. Yeah. What if instead of... what if you put the deadline- So you have the deadline that it's due on August 1? What if on the calendar on July 1, you wrote, like, start the thing?
Bob Shea 36:04
Yeah, that's, that's what I should do. And I did. I did that. The one that was two weeks late, I put in every day like you are supposed to be working on this thing. I am the worst employee. I just, I That stuff's easy. If I'm like, if it's due in 30 days, I'm like, Well, I can go to MakeHaven today. You know what I mean? Because it's 30, I still got 29 days - work a little harder.
Hannah Choi 36:36
And I suppose thinking, well, if I just do it all now and I get it done five days before the due date, then I could spend five full days in a row at MakeHaven.
Bob Shea 36:46
that sounds like a wonderful world that I do. You know, I'll tell you, I have that conversation with myself in a very convincing manner. executing that plan, to a degree where all the steps are taken care of in a in a timely way. And let me tell you something, too. It's not me. It's not me blowing it off. It's, it takes longer than I guess. So even with this thing, even. And then things happen that you don't anticipate. You know, that's the other thing
Hannah Choi 37:19
Yeah. And the unpredictable variables of life,
Bob Shea 37:22
That and that's even going back to the boxes, and it applies to the month to going back to the boxes. If you write down what really happens. You can look back and go, oh, there's all these things that I didn't know in the morning were going to happen that I had to deal with. And so you don't feel bad. At the end of the day. You're like, well, it wasn't my fault. I wasn't I wasn't like googling what movie was Nicolas Cage in in the 90s was the thing and they switched faces. You know what I mean? You're like, you don't you don't stop to do that. As long as I'm like working and not like, just looking at, you know, woodworking videos. What I like to do - keep that to my personal time.
Hannah Choi 38:05
Yeah, having some flexibility, like, like, flexibility both in what we do during the day and also like recognizing that, that we cannot be rigid all the time. We cannot. As much as we want to stick to whatever we have planned for that day, it just doesn't. Yeah, definitely gonna happen.
Bob Shea 38:25
Yeah, it's, it's, it's about being honest with yourself about how you work, and then saying, Look, you work this way. Here's what'll work with that without you beating yourself up because I because I couldn't figure it out. Because I was like, I did all this stuff in my career to get to the point where I'm have autonomy. I can work by myself. I come up with my own projects. Great, great, great. And I'm like, and then you ruin it because you're on stupid Twitter. Why would you do that? You have you? Here's everything that you wanted. And you undermine yourself. It's awful. It was
Hannah Choi 39:10
How much do you think that had to do with fear? The fear that you weren't going to be do it do it right or fear that it was going to be uncomfortable while you were doing whatever it was.
Bob Shea 39:22
That's a big part of it because I would - the books - I can't look at books that I did already. From the past. Somebody's using an angle grinder outside. So I can't look at Yeah, so good. It's like, I hope I hope they're making a playground. Something good.
Hannah Choi 39:45
I never found out what my neighbors were doing.
Bob Shea 39:48
Right. Hold on. Let me look real quick. Oh, soft serve ice cream. It's gonna be good. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 39:55
Wait! That's another distraction. Now, I think they're building a brand location of the makerspace
Bob Shea 40:02
Oh, that's good. Right there. Right? They are. It's they're putting in a table saw. More noise, Great. Yeah, you know, you get so excited for these projects. And in your head, it's perfect. It's the best thing you've ever done. And then you can then you put it down on paper, and there it is going through the filter of your abilities.
Hannah Choi 40:25
And your own self criticism, I'm sure
Bob Shea 40:27
I can't I was saying before, before they were making the ice cream stand outside, but I can't look at my old books. I can't open them up. People are like, Oh, what was that thing? And I'm like, I'm not going I'm not opening that again. All you see is the things you did wrong. And and in my case, all I see is Yeah, you did that at the last minute, didn't you? Yeah, you're a champ. You're a prince. Look at that, aren't you Like, aren't you professional?
Hannah Choi 40:53
I'm so curious. I want I kind of want to follow up with you in a couple of years and see, like, if you, like see how your thought processes about your own work have changed? Yeah, I'd be interesting to see that.
Bob Shea 41:07
I think that I think that I'm managing expectations about that. And as long as I can be comfortable with myself, I'm fine. Like I said, like the overwhelm went away. So I'm not always like, yeah, I sort of can just accept things the way they are and be like, yeah, that's okay. And I'll tell you, that is so huge. Like, it's so huge.
Hannah Choi 41:35
Yeah. So I'm, I'm doing an episode on procrastination. So would you say you are a procrastinator?
Bob Shea 41:46
Yep. Yeah, more. So before the Adderall for sure. Yeah, yeah, I still do it. And now when I do it, I can stop if I want to. But also, if I'm doing it, and I know that I'm doing it, I'm like, give yourself a break. You're okay. It's not that big a deal. Because what the other thing is about understanding how you work. So I write this grid during the day, the last couple of hours, like probably from from four to four to six. You're not getting anything done. Like you're not, you get it you get an ice cube of creativity every day, you get like, here's this, you can you have this for like an hour and a half, and then you're not gonna get anything good. Stop. So I know from four to six, I'm like, Alright, clean up your office, which is still a mess from ADHD, I'm still working on that. Clean your office reply to emails, low cognitive load things. Yeah. Because that's the time when I'll be like, looking at Instagram or something. Because I'm, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out of stuff, you know.
Hannah Choi 42:53
So something that I try to work a lot with my clients on is is exactly that, like noticing, diminishing returns, noticing when your effort is not, is not being effective anymore. And so that's so great that you, you know that about yourself, and you know, what the things that you can do, instead of just messing around, like, you know, you can still do some things, which is going to make you feel better about yourself by the end of the day, like, oh, like, like all these other things that I did? Yeah, I may not have like, written more or drawn more, but I did make my space more usable,
Bob Shea 43:30
Which is another goal. Like it's one of the things so it's like, yeah, I can I can move piles around for the next hour from one spot to the next. Just which is another thing I can't I bet it. I can't see. I'm clutter-blind as well. Anyway, but uh, but yeah, that's, that's the thing is to just be easy. Go easy on yourself. And if you if you know that you're diligently trying don't like I'm like, yeah, they know. It's all working out. Okay, it's all from everything's for my benefit. So I don't mind it so much.
Hannah Choi 44:04
Yeah, that's great. And being able to do that self reflection is so important. And, and, and recognizing, like, what your strengths are and what's challenging, and how you can use both of those.
Bob Shea 44:17
Yeah, a lot of that, too. I mentioned before I'm a big meditator meditation has allowed me to understand my thoughts as they're happening, and to recognize thought patterns and be like, alright, I see what it is you're doing now. And you take your level you're a little distanced from you don't become your thoughts. You're able to like observe them and go, alright, you you don't want to do this. Why not? Yeah. And then think about what else can I do instead? And that lets me shift and then that way I'm not hooked on the well you back off other thought because I'm getting some dopamine from this Instagram and then I'm gonna ride this for a while.
Hannah Choi 45:05
So how do you? How did you get into meditation? And how do you keep yourself? How do you? How do you keep up with the practice?
Bob Shea 45:13
I, you know, my, my mother in the 70s was into back when it was a super popular thing. She was into Tm. It's a transcendental meditation because it was like on the Merv Griffin Show. You know,
Hannah Choi 45:26
I remember people talking about that when I was little.
Bob Shea 45:28
Yeah, you know, I was like, That guy was on TV all the time. It was super like it was a pop culture thing. And then she would do it, she went to some meditation thing, tried to get us boys to do it, we laughed, and we're like, I'm not doing this. We tried once. You can't make people meditate, you cannot make them do it. But I always remembered that she did you know. And so I think when I was like, in my 20s, I started doing it again, late, my late 20s, I did it. And I did it in a different way. I didn't do TM, but I would just do it with the real. And again, I had to do the ADHD, I'm like, You need to build this muscle of focus. And so I did it that way for a while. And it was fine. It was fine. It was good. I didn't really know what I was getting out of it. And then I started to use the Sam Harris app a couple of years ago. And that's really the thing where he walks you through why you're doing it and how to do it and all this stuff. And that and he's like, he comes at it from a point of view of not like it's a spiritual thing. It's other goes my my cuckoo clock to did let me know that an hour has passed in my head. So I have an understanding of time. I've 10 clocks all around the thing. I'm obsessed with clocks now. It's a good one. Yeah, and I'll let the bird keep talking for a second. There it goes. And that the keeping up on the practice is, all of these things work in tandem, I have to, I can tell when I'm eating poorly, if I'm not exercising, if I'm not doing meditation. Life's worse. Like even with the medication life's worse. So if I try to try to ride my bike in every day, I usually when I you know, and this is more of a habit forming than anything else. Usually what I'll do is when I get in right away, I'll sit and meditate. When I walk in the door, put my stuff down, sit on the cushion. There's on the app, it's a meditation everyday 20 minutes do it and it's over. Like when I wake up when I wake up. I try to write for a while. Then I'll exercise that I might go for a run. I'm in, meditate, set, it all sounds wonderful. It sounds like you have this wonderful thing. It's all it's all tension. It's all motivated by fear. So that's the foundation is fear. So but it all helps me stay focused a little bit.
Hannah Choi 47:54
Yeah, right. It's a fear of not feeling good, right? I feel a fear of failing, you know, those strategies are to help you be successful.
Bob Shea 48:02
I can feel better. I feel better. If I get sleep. I have to get enough sleep. And then I just I feel so much better. I'm so much more able to deal with things.
Hannah Choi 48:13
Yeah, I I really feel that with exercise. Like for me, I really need to exercise if I don't exercise then I tend to really beat myself up a lot. And when I exercise I'm much gentler myself. And I actually just ran a half marathon yesterday I ran the Fairfield half marathon. Yeah. It wasn't my first half marathon but was my first time during the Fairfield one. It was really fun. Two more questions for you. They're not long. What are you excited about?
Bob Shea 48:43
What am I excited about? Me personally? In the world? Because nothing
Hannah Choi 48:52
Okay, personally? Yeah, I know the world is awful, right? Personally
Bob Shea 48:59
I'm excited about my son's graduating high school, he's gonna go to college in the fall. I'm pretty excited about that. I'm, I'm doing I'm - because I do one thing at a time now. I'm doing some I have some good projects at the makerspace that I'm excited about. I'm excited, just even about running and riding my bike. I'm so excited that it's nice outside. It's all very simple things that I do. And I write down gratitude stuff at the end of the day. And it's always the same thing. It's always like my wife, something delicious, and out and my bicycle.
Hannah Choi 49:35
I have been keeping a gratitude journal for - I'm in my fifth year now. It has, I have to say like I think that has made one of the biggest impacts on my life.
Bob Shea 49:39
For real?
Hannah Choi 49:39
Oh, yeah. It's amazing
Bob Shea 49:42
Do you do it in the evening or in the morning to start your day and set your intention kind of thing.
Hannah Choi 49:54
Yeah, that's a great question. I do it in the evening and I also sometimes end up doing it in the morning for the previous day, because I forgot to do it. But what I have found, it has helped me so much with negative thinking. And, and I find myself throughout the day going, Oh, that's something I can write about. I automatically think that way now. And it also at the end of if I have like a particularly hard day, it forces me to look back on it in and look for the even if I can be grateful for the challenge of that hard day. I made it through or, or whatever, like my kids made me happy or, you know, something.
Bob Shea 50:43
This day is over. I'm grateful. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 50:47
During the pandemic, I often just wrote, "I'm just glad this day is over". Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a huge thing for me. So I'm glad you're doing it too. Yeah.
Bob Shea 50:58
That's good. I'll start to - I'm not mindful of things during the day. To to jot down that's a great idea. That's good. That brings it into the whole day.
Hannah Choi 51:08
Yeah, yeah, it's been really nice. And it's cool too, because the one that I use as a line a day journal, so it's actually got five years on each day. So I can look back on that, that day from the previous and so I'm in my fifth year now. So I can look back on on all of them before and it's really interesting to see that I do tend to be thankful for a lot of the same stuff. And so that makes me feel really good. Like, Oh, those are those are things that I should be doing. Like I do kickboxing, and I'm very often thankful for kickboxing. And, sadly, the place where we do it at is closing. But um
Bob Shea 51:43
Oh, really?
Hannah Choi 51:44
Yeah. It's a real bummer. But it's it is it's really nice to look back on that. And just, it's like evidence. I just I love looking for evidence. And there's a lot of evidence in that book.
Bob Shea 51:56
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Choi 51:59
All right, one more question. How do people find you even though you're not too much on social media?
Bob Shea 52:05
On social media, on Instagram, I'm Bob Shea books. And then I do have Bobshea.com. That's my books website. But those are really the two main places the main thing is is Instagram, @Bobsheabooks
Hannah Choi 52:22
and on your local children's library bookshelves.
Bob Shea 52:25
Oh, yeah, exactly. Wherever, from your local independent bookseller. Yeah, just go in and go in and demand my books. And if they don't carry them there, they usually have a display in the center of the store, like new releases or whatever. If they don't have it, just flip that over. Flip it over, run out.
Hannah Choi 52:45
Well, that's that's how we found you, my kids. When my kids were little, we can't remember how we maybe they had one of your books up on like the, like the top, they put like one of the books up on the top?
Bob Shea 52:56
And oh, okay. Yeah, good I hope so.
Hannah Choi 52:58
So every time we found out you had a new book, we are super excited. So thank you for being a part of my children's childhood.
Bob Shea 53:04
Oh, sure. Thank you.
Hannah Choi 53:08
All right. Well, thanks again, Bob. This is great. It's really interesting to hear different people's perspectives. And and I'm so glad that you found strategies that are working for you. And I wish you luck on figuring out long term strategy planning, I think that I was thinking about it, like, just the fact that you're very good at doing your daily stuff is probably why you ended up with only being two weeks late and not three months, like, Yeah, I think that daily practice, probably just made you more aware of time and just made you more productive at, you know, the only thing I was, I was wondering, do you work backwards? Like, do you ever do start at the finish? And then figure out like, Okay, well, I know that they want it, like this amount of time ahead of time. And then and then okay, that means it takes me usually takes me about five days to do whatever and then schedule that there. And then it's like, all of that, all of that time blindness that you're conquering, can be so useful, right? Because, you know, you know how long things take now. So then it makes it easier when you're working backwards to budget in time. So yes, yeah, I think take now,
Bob Shea 54:25
I would I, I know I should. I should do it that way. In fact, I used to use Gantt charts, you know, again, you know those things. So again, a Gantt chart. I, this is my pre ADHD like, I was so obsessed with them. Like I gotta come up with a way that I can do this. Basically, it's a timeline, and then you hang like a string that moves along with for every day. But on that chart, you have the different things that you're different tasks that have to get done, so you can see where you are and whatever tasks and then So But what ends up happening is you just keep moving the task, like the Gantt chart is, so that is a quick visual, like, if you have five things going on where you are and all those five things.
Hannah Choi 55:10
Yeah, that's cool.
Bob Shea 55:12
Yeah, no, yeah.
Hannah Choi 55:14
I recommend looking at how long things take you and trying to, trying to figure out and adding in buffer time and adding in time for all those variables that we can't predict.
Bob Shea 55:28
I do. I try to add 50% more than my guess. And I'm getting better at it, but not still can't do like I'm never spot on.
Hannah Choi 55:40
Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear?
Bob Shea 55:43
I did. I did. That's where I got the sit down and meditate as soon as you come in.
Hannah Choi 55:47
Yeah. Habits stacking. Yeah, I was meant to. I meant to mention that earlier when you were talking about that. But I like his idea of just 1% better. It obviously adds up over time, like you have you have proof. You have proof that a little bit better does add up over time.
Bob Shea 56:05
Yeah. And then the other the other thing I do in the book with the boxes, the next day, I look at how I did the day before. And I go Yeah, you know, you kind of were messing around too much at this time. And you know, you went for that walk was longer than you thought. So then that day, I can be like, Yeah, that's what I say. I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday.
Hannah Choi 56:27
Yeah, that's so great. Oh, you're like a dream client. Oh my gosh.
Bob Shea 56:31
I'm too introspective.
Hannah Choi 56:34
Nah. No such thing. Well, thanks so much, Bob. This has been great.
Bob Shea 56:39
Thank you. That was fun.
Hannah Choi 56:43
And that's our show for today. I really hope that you had a chuckle and learn something useful from Bob. Or maybe you could just really relate to his story. More and more adults are being diagnosed with ADHD, so this feels like a really relatable and important story to share. Check out the show notes for a link to see some of Bob's time management strategies. And thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening
In today’s episode, we’re looking at another set of helpful skills - especially for teens and young adults - and those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive function skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation, plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing, and responding to our emotions. I think this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn and also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our…well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age will have a hugely positive impact on our lives.
To learn more about emotional regulation and what coping skills might be particularly useful to teens and young adults, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area, to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know, it’s a mouthful and also something you may not have heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym but had no idea what it was, so I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie. DBT is related to CBT which you may have heard of before. If you haven’t, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. In this type of therapy, you learn to recognize negative or unhelpful thought patterns and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I’ll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills.
Here are some helpful resources from our conversation:
DBT® Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets, Second Edition, by Marsha Linehan
And Then They Stopped Talking to Me: Making Sense of Middle School by Judith Warner
Village Psychology - Jackie Wolfman’s practice
What Is Dialectical Behavior Therapy for Adolescents - The YouTube video I watched to learn more about DBT before I talked with Jackie
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
In the last episode, I spoke with Nadine Briggs about the connection between social skills and EF skills. We talked about different strategies and tools that kids and parents can use to develop these skills. In today's episode, we're looking at another set of skills that are helpful for kids, especially teens and young adults. And those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive functions skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing and then appropriately responding to our emotions. I think that this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn. And it's also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our...well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age can have a hugely positive impact on our lives.
To learn more about emotional regulation, and what coping skills might be particularly useful, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know it's a mouthful, and might also be something that you have not heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym, but I had no idea what it was. So I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie, you can check out the show notes for the stuff that I found. DBT is related to CBT, which you may have heard of before. And if you haven't, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. And in this type of therapy, you learn to recognize certain negative or unhelpful thought patterns, and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears, and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I'll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills. Okay, now on to the show.
Hi, Jackie, thanks for joining me today. And there's your dog! (dog barking in background)
Jackie Wolfman 02:57
Right on cue! Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here to talk with you.
Hannah Choi 03:03
Yeah. Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners a little bit?
Jackie Wolfman 03:07
Sure. So my name is Jackie Wolfman. I'm a clinical psychologist. And I've really focused my career on helping both college students and young adults in their early adulthood who might be struggling with anxiety, trauma, impulsivity, relationship difficulties, a whole host of things. And so, more recently, I founded a mental health private practice called Village Psychology that's dedicated to providing evidence based therapy groups, workshops and other programs to help college students and young adults really find relief from suffering and, you know, hopefully begin to create lives that they're truly excited about and really love. So, I spent 10 years in New York training and doing my education there. And then I moved to Boston about 10 years ago now, to do a postdoc in dialectical behavior therapy at McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School. So that's where I got really the bulk of my DBT training, which I can talk about later. I'm certified, I'm a certified DBT clinician by the DBT Linehan Board of Certification. And I have a background in the arts. So I really like to think of myself as someone who tries to combine, you know, creativity and innovation and, you know, a strong grounding in science and evidence based practice to develop these programs, you know, to work with young people.
Hannah Choi 04:42
Oh, that's wonderful. I love that. Can you explain to our listeners what DBT is?
Jackie Wolfman 04:45
Absolutely. So DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy. It is a form of CBT cognitive behavioral therapy that includes a focus on individual therapy, on-call skills coaching, and also skills training groups, so groups where people are learning to develop coping skills in different areas.
Hannah Choi 05:12
So dialectical, that's not a word that you hear every day. Can you tell me a little bit about what it means and why it might be important?
Jackie Wolfman 05:19
Sure. So it's definitely important, it's the name of the therapy. And a dialectic really refers to this idea that we can have two things that seem like opposites, and they can both be true at the same time. So some different examples could be I am tough, and I am gentle. Or I like school and I don't like school. Right? And so, dialectics is important for a lot of reasons. One is that it really helps us get away from all or nothing thinking. So all or nothing thinking is either, you know, something like, I got an A on this test, or I'm a total failure, right? That would be all or nothing, or either you're my best friend, or you're my enemy. Right. And so when we get stuck in these all or nothing types of thought patterns, dialectics dialectics can help us find balance and move out of that. So maybe instead of, you know, either I get an A, or I'm a failure, it's something like, you know, that test was really hard for me, and I'm going to study in a different way next time, or I'm disappointed with how that went. And I can ask for help to see what I can do differently, right. So helping us find that middle ground, so that we're not stuck in these all or nothing types of ways of seeing ourselves or other people or even the world.
Hannah Choi 06:51
Something that has just been trending for me lately is this idea of identity and who we are. And so I imagine dialectical thinking is helpful in, in figuring out who our identity is, and how I imagine, like, you can say, like, like I did poorly on that test, and I'm still a good student, or whatever.
Jackie Wolfman 07:15
Absolutely, yeah, It really can inform how you talk to yourself about yourself, right? And then how you view yourself, and what different things mean to you that I can see this as a, you know, I did poorly on the test, or I didn't study as much as I could have is a problem that can be solved, right, that can be addressed. And you can also hold in your mind, like you're saying this idea that I'm still a good student, right. And I'm still smart. And I'm still curious and passionate about what I care about. So it's not just one or the other.
Hannah Choi 07:48
Who's a good candidate for DBT?
Jackie Wolfman 07:50
Yeah, so people come to DBT, to work on a range of difficulties, it was initially developed to work with people who are really at high risk of hurting themselves and having difficulties in a number of different areas. And since it's been expanded to apply to many different types of problems. But I would say a common factor in terms of people who come to DBT treatment and really benefit from it, or is some sort of difficulty with regulating their emotions. So that might look like anxiety, depression, it could be rapid mood changes, it could be feeling num or empty, impulsive behaviors, or really any combination of those.
Hannah Choi 08:34
Would you say there's, like I hadn't, I hadn't really heard of it. I mean, I'd seen the acronym. And I know about CBT. But I hadn't really didn't, I had to do a little research to learn about it myself, you find that people are, is there? Is there more awareness about it now? And also, is there a stigma about it if it used to be used for people who are at risk of hurting themselves, but now it could be for anybody really?
Jackie Wolfman 09:03
Yeah, I think there is increasing awareness about dialectical behavior therapy, and certainly has, you know, been considered really the gold standard for people who do have high risk behaviors, whether that's, you know, suicidal thoughts or self harm or other types of risky behaviors. And so sometimes people do have that question - "Is this really for me?" because I don't fit into that category. And so I think it just requires more education to tell people yes, it might be, you know, let's look at what the what the therapy offers and what you're looking for help with. And, you know, see if this if this makes sense, because, like you said, I mean, these are skills that I think pretty much we all could use. I mean, I use them all the time and continue to practice them. So it's not necessarily for everyone, but it really can benefit a wide range of people I think.
Hannah Choi 09:58
Yeah. So if you are if you are listening and you don't feel like you fall into the category of that, there are still lots of, what I'm getting is there are still a lot of coping skills and strategies that you might learn in DBT that can help. So it sounds like DBT is from the research that the reading that I did about it, and I watched a YouTube video, which was really helpful as well. Yeah. It sounds like it's very holistic, like it, it includes the families, the person who's the person who is at the highest risk the and their families. And then I love how the skills groups are involved. And then also, the skills practice and how, how available, you as the therapist are to the person who's in therapy, so that they can make sure that they are completely supported when they're trying to learn these new coping skills.
Jackie Wolfman 10:56
Yeah, so the, I think your you know, part of what you're talking about is what we call skills coaching, where your individual, usually your individual therapist, sometimes it could be the group therapist, but your therapist is available to you in between sessions for short, coaching calls. And this is because it's really one thing to learn the skills in the group. And that's terrific, but it's a whole nother thing to be able to apply them in the moment that you need it. And so sometimes that's during a therapy session, but most of our lives, were not in our therapy sessions, that might be for one hour a week at most, potentially. And so that's what the skills coaching is for that you can contact your therapist, you can say, "This is the problem I'm having, these are the emotions I'm feeling. This is my goal. This is what I've already tried." Usually, your therapist prompts you to answer these questions, of course, and what what else can I do, you know, help me figure out how to use these skills now when I really need it. And I just find that that really goes such a long way in terms of people's ability to use it and start to use them eventually more independently. So they don't necessarily need to call their therapist, but at first, it really makes just a world of difference and being able to apply the skills in the time that that you really need it.
Hannah Choi 12:09
So I imagine developing a really strong trust between your client and your therapy, the client and the therapist is really important, so that they feel comfortable reaching out because they I mean, I imagine they might feel like they're interrupting you.
Jackie Wolfman 12:23
Absolutely. So some people will say that, you know, oh, you know, isn't it hard to be on-call because people are calling you all the time. And actually, what I find is exactly what you're saying that actually people don't want to interrupt my life. They don't want to bother me, they don't know if it's worth it or you know, things like that. And so really, I have to help people encourage them to, to reach out. And you're absolutely right, the relationship between the therapist and the client is the most important thing in terms of really any therapy being successful, I think, because that's the foundation upon which you can do all the other work.
Hannah Choi 12:56
Yeah, I mean, we find the same thing with with executive function skills coaching. And we also do the same thing - we check in with our clients during the week. And I always encourage my clients to reach out like if you're struggling and you are like not sure what to do in a situation where you're trying to, I don't know, plan for the week or something, reach out! But you're right, people don't do it very often. So hopefully, anyone's listening, I hope they reach out to their therapist or reach out to their coaches now.
Jackie Wolfman 13:22
That's one of the skills to learn in practice really, is to be able to ask for help.
Hannah Choi 13:28
Yeah, I mean, even Yeah, that's definitely something that I've been working on and, and doing this podcast has actually been part of that, you know, like, have, I've had to ask for a lot of help. I've had to ask people to explain things that I don't understand. And it's, it's a scary thing to put yourself out there. But you can learn so much and grow so much.
Jackie Wolfman 13:49
Oh, absolutely.
Hannah Choi 13:50
That's great. So you said you work, um you do group? Like group? What do you call them group? Is it group therapy or group sessions?
Jackie Wolfman 14:03
You know, I do call it group therapy, because it is group therapy. But I also explained to people that a DBT group is in a lot of ways a little a little bit more like a class than other types of group therapy. So we there's different types of group therapy. And that can be benefit beneficial in different ways, you know, for different people at different times. But these groups that would the DBT skills, training groups, it really does, in some ways feel a little bit more like a class because there is a workbook, there's a curriculum on teaching a different skill each week, there's homework practice. So it's not an open ended discussion group, although there are many opportunities to connect and share with other group members. But it's much more structured.
Hannah Choi 14:45
And so do you. You offer these groups for young adults, right?
Jackie Wolfman 14:53
Yes, so I never know what to call, you know what young adult means? Because to some people that's too In other words, it's older so. So I have I have groups that are specifically for college students, which tend to be traditional college age, maybe 18 to 22. Ish. And then I also have separate groups, which I do call the young adult groups, but those are ages typically 22 to 30. Ish. I have both.
Hannah Choi 15:18
Yeah. Oh, that's great. And so what if? And I imagine there's also DBT, for kids who are in high school?
Jackie Wolfman 15:26
Yeah, absolutely. And I've done that as well. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 15:30
So speaking of kids who are in high school, I have a client right now who is graduating, and he's going to be going to college in the fall. And so it makes me think about what kids can do to kind of get ready for, for being a grown up. And, and and the differences that they're going to encounter when they get to school, and they're going to be away from their regular environment. Do you, do you ever work with kids prior to college?
Jackie Wolfman 16:01
I do. And in fact, I'm working on developing a more specific program for sort of like the pre-college prep, but from the mental health and wellness perspective, and to help people kind of identify what are the skills that they need to learn in practice before starting college.
Hannah Choi 16:25
Yeah, so what are they? What should people work on?
Jackie Wolfman 16:30
Yeah. So there's four main categories of skills that we cover in DBT. And I think those map on really well to some of the skills that are needed for college. So the core skill is mindfulness. And one of my favorite quotes about mindfulness is that it sounds simple. And it is, but it's not easy. So when I'm talking about mindfulness, I'm really talking about two things, your ability to focus your mind where you want it to go. Instead of, you know, feeling like you have no control over that. And also increasing awareness, both of what's going on around you, but really, also what's happening internally, your own thoughts and your own feelings. And so a mindfulness practice can be again, super simple, like for the next 30 to 60 seconds, notice whatever sounds you notice, it's a very simple practice. And if we start to do that, usually what we notice is it's not easy, it's really hard, right? I start thinking about when I'm going to have for lunch or a conversation I had yesterday, or all the things on my to do list, right to just kind of bring myself to the moment and focus on those sounds. It takes a lot of practice. And so I think it has a lot of applications for everyone, but in particular for college students, because they have so much going on, to be able to focus where you need to focus is a real challenge. And being able to identify what you're feeling in the moment has so many benefits for being able to figure out what else you need.
Hannah Choi 18:02
Yeah, and what's so interesting, like, if you look at sort of the brain science behind mindfulness and awareness of how we are feeling is the executive function skill of metacognition, and like, how can you like, can you figure out what you're feeling? And can you figure out like, why you do what you do and why you don't do what you do? And so that seems, and it's also the last executive function skill to develop, and the trajectory of the development of that. And so that's interesting, because that's about the time when people start to get better at that. So that's good timing. If you think about it from like, a brain science side of it.
Jackie Wolfman 18:42
Yeah. And I think it's something we can continue to develop our whole lives.
Hannah Choi 18:46
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, especially with how busy and pulled and how, in many directions people are being able to. Yeah, recognize how you're feeling and, and like you said, the attention piece of it is, so this can be so challenging when there's so much going on. Great. So what's the next the next core skill?
Jackie Wolfman 19:10
Yeah, so the next core core skill has to do with relationships. So in DBT, we call this interpersonal effectiveness. So really having strategies for maintaining relationships, while also being able to ask for what you need, whether that's asking for help, and saying no turning down a request and keeping your self respect. So being able to balance maintaining relationships with these two other factors of asking for what you need, and also saying no, are very important you can imagine for a college student.
Hannah Choi 19:47
Yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought about that, like asking you for what you need and also saying no, because in a way that's asking for what you need.
Jackie Wolfman 19:56
Yes, absolutely. So being able to identify and understand your own limits. And taking the risk to set them can be very hard to practice, especially we don't want to make people upset, or we're afraid people won't like us, or we just don't have practice doing that. But we've so many demands of college students, it can be really, really helpful to be able to say, You know what, I have all these things on my plate right now, I'm not going to take on this other thing, or to be able to say, you know, what, what you're asking you to do actually crosses my values. So I'm going to decline.
Hannah Choi 20:32
But you're saying reminds me of something I read in a book once? I think it was And Then They Stopped Talking to Me by Judith Warner. Oh, don't quote me on that. But anyway, if it is that book, she writes about how important it is for kids to check in with how they feel after they hang out with someone.
Jackie Wolfman 20:52
Yeah, I love that. Because I think so much of our focus can be on does the other person like me? How am I coming across, right? And we all might feel that way at times or a lot of the time. But they'd be able to kind of switch that narrative and ask, well, actually, how do I feel around this person? And is this someone I want to be spending time with? is really, really important to be able to, again, it's that mindfulness piece, I think of checking in with yourself and seeing how do I feel? What is my reaction?
Hannah Choi 21:19
Yeah, and checking in with you, and figuring that out, might give you the confidence that you need to say to the person No, I'm not comfortable doing this or asking for what you need. Great! So what's next? So excited?
Jackie Wolfman 21:35
Yeah. So next, we have emotion regulation. So emotion regulation has a lot to do with being able to identify emotions, and really understand what in the world they're doing there and what they're doing for you. So like, what is the function? What is the purpose? What good are emotions? So having some understanding of that, and then having some tools to change the emotion when that's your goal. So obviously, that's not always going to be the goal, there's often times where it's very useful to sit with your feelings, tolerate them experience them, but there are times where you do want to change the intensity of what you're feeling, or how long that it's lasting. And so this is also a very important skill for college students, when who might get very overwhelmed by exam week, or things going on socially, or, you know, conflict with family or whatever it might be dealing with a pandemic, right? There's just so many, so many things, affecting people every day. So having some tools to feel like, okay, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. And I know some things that I can do to bring the intensity down. It can also apply to feeling numb or empty, right? If someone's feeling that lack of feeling or experiencing a lack of feeling, what can I do to get myself back into experiencing my, my emotions?
Hannah Choi 23:01
What strategies are do people find most useful for both of those situations?
Jackie Wolfman 23:06
Yeah, well, there's a really cool strategy in DBT, called opposite action. And basically, what that means is you identify what you're feeling, the feeling that you want to change, you identify what is the action urge, meaning, what is this emotion telling me to do? Right? Am I feeling angry? And I feel like yelling and screaming, am I feeling sad, and I want to climb in bed and pull the covers up over my head? What is the urge, and then you identify the opposite. And then you do that. And you're like, wow, so if I want to reduce feeling sad in the moment, and my urges to, you know, pull the covers over my head, if my goal is to change the feeling. If the goal is not to change my feeling, then, you know, go to bed and pull the covers over my head, there's a time and a place for that. But if my goal is to change the feeling that I would do the opposite, I would get active, I would be around other people, right? I would go for a brisk walk something like that. And that can really change how you're feeling.
Hannah Choi 24:06
I love that. And, gosh, I wish I had learned all these things when I remember being in college. And I think a lot of these strategies would have been really helpful.
Jackie Wolfman 24:15
No, I think that all the time. It would have been really nice to have some of these tools.
Hannah Choi 24:19
Okay, and then that was three. So what's the fourth?
Jackie Wolfman 24:23
So the fourth is called distress tolerance. And what this means is having skills for crisis or just really challenging situations where you can't fix it, or at least you can't solve it right away. But you don't want to do something to make it worse, right? Like we've all been in that situation where it's a tough situation, challenging situation and then you know, I go ahead and do something that just makes it all worse for myself. And so these are kind of what you think of usually what comes to mind when you think of like traditional coping skills like maybe distraction, maybe self soothing yourself in the moment because you can't solve it in that moment. But you can prevent yourself from doing something impulsive or risky or just, you know, not helpful, that sometimes, you know, we have those urges and those difficult moments because we want to fix it, or we don't want to feel that way anymore. So these are tools that can really help us to get through and even do well, in the most challenging situations.
Hannah Choi 25:24
So for kids who are going off to college, or who are kids who are in college, or anybody, really any adults, if they're listening, if if you don't have access to DBT, and you but you want to benefit from some of the strategies that are used in DBT, are there resources or ways to access that information that that people can find?
Jackie Wolfman 25:52
Yes, absolutely. So anyone can get the workbook it's, it's has both handouts that you can read through and then it has worksheets, so that gives you assignments, basically, of how to go and practice some of these skills. So and there's a lot of information online as well. And there are some free resources, I can send you some of that information, if you want to put it in the notes for people, but there's some nice resources for parents as well, to be able to get support around some of these skills so that they can kind of identify them and help their children to learn and practice them, as well.
Hannah Choi 26:32
And would you say there's like an optimal age to start this kind of stuff?
Jackie Wolfman 26:38
It's such an interesting question, because now there's DBT-C, which is for children. Right? So. So there's any age, I think, can benefit from these skills? I've certainly mostly, you know, most worked often with adolescents, you know, starting as young as 13, 14. On up, but I know there's lots of people doing good work with, with kids even younger.
Hannah Choi 27:04
So, what can parents do, like in addition to those resources, what can parents do to support their kids?
Jackie Wolfman 27:12
Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing parents can do is, well, there's three things that parents can do, there's probably more but I would say parents can model, they can validate, and they can reinforce. So in terms of modeling, what I mean is parents can learn and practice some of these skills themselves. Because that will demonstrate to their children how to how to use some of these skills. And children learn from watching what their parents do when they're feeling strong emotions or having a difficult time. So I think that's a huge benefit. If you're learning and practicing these skills yourself, your children will benefit from that. The second skill for parents that I think is really, really core, to supporting college student high school students, and then who be them become college students is to learn and practice validation. So often, when children are younger parents are major problem solvers, right? They come in, they help their kids, they solve their problems for them to a large degree. But as kids get older, parents have less of a role in terms of problem solving, which can be a hard transition for parents. But it's an important one as their children get older and get more independent are going to be solving more problems on their own or with the help of others. So validation, is still something that parents can do. So reflecting back the emotions, or experiences or perspective of their child, communicating how their emotions and experience makes sense, and really providing that kind of warm, compassionate ear. While doing that they can say, you know, would you like some suggestions? Would you like some help with this? And if they say yes, offer them, but I think a lot of parents have had the experience of trying to jump in and, and solve the problem with some merit, very, some maybe very good ideas, but then their child is like "Naw, won't work, that don't work that well, you know, I don't want your help". Right. So I think validation is really, really, really important.
Hannah Choi 29:23
That's a that's a like a when, when we're working with a client who's new to coaching. We always ask first, like, Would you like, Would you like some ideas for this? And I think yeah, if someone says no, then they're not going to be receptive to it. If they say yes, then they're going to be receptive. And but if you don't ask, you don't know what you're gonna get, and you might end up ruining the relationship. Well, you're not ruining it.
Jackie Wolfman 29:50
But yeah, it becomes more challenging. You want to you want to kind of have that collaboration, that you're working on something together.
Hannah Choi 29:59
And it's hard as pair aren't too, cuz of course, we just want to fix everything for our kids. But it's it's got, especially when they're older, that's got to be up to them to be a part of it if they're if... I imagine that it is more effective if the child is like, "Yes, I want your help."
Jackie Wolfman 30:18
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, nobody wants to see their child suffering and in pain, and if there's something they can do to help solve it, you want to do it. And so sometimes I remind parents that validation is doing something, right? You're helping your child understand their experience, realize what makes sense about it. And then support them and figuring out what to do next.
Hannah Choi 30:42
What are some good questions that parents can ask in a situation where the child is really having a hard time?
Jackie Wolfman 30:50
Hmmm..."Tell me more about that." "It sounds like you're feeling blank. Is that right?" Right. So checking in with them. And I think, I think it's a good indication that you're being validating. If you get more information, right, if they're talking more, that's often a sign that they're feeling understood. So I think the simple questions are sometimes the most effective.
Hannah Choi 31:21
What you, one thing that you said, when you said, I think you're feeling this? Is that right? Reminds me of what previous guests of mine Sherry Fleydervish said, she said, "It's okay to be wrong. You know, it's okay to guess your child's feeling and be wrong". Because that can actually that can help them, figure it, help them figure out what they are feeling. And figuring out our feelings is a really big part of of that emotional regulation and awareness,
Jackie Wolfman 31:49
I completely agree, I can help them figure out what they're feeling. And also, it's the effort that matters, right? If I'm validating someone else, I don't have to get it right 100% of the time, but usually the other person, or at least when someone's validating me, I appreciate that they're trying. And if I say, you know, that's not quite it, and they say, Okay, it's all good, right? If they say, No, you are feeling what I think you're feeling, then it doesn't usually go that that great. But, you know, if you continue to roll with it, then then you know, I appreciate when someone's trying, they don't have to get it perfectly.
Hannah Choi 32:23
Yeah, so if you're the person who's validating someone else, you have to be okay with possibly being wrong. Exactly. Yeah. And then, and then allowing yourself to be wrong in that moment, and letting them tell you, hopefully, they'll tell you what they are feeling.
Jackie Wolfman 32:37
Exactly right. And then going with that. And even as a therapist, I do this, right. So I might, I might have missed the mark on something and then I and then I'll say, oh, okay, you know, help me understand what did I miss? And go from there?
Hannah Choi 32:50
Yeah, and it really helps them figure it out, I'm sure. Cool. And what's the third thing?
Jackie Wolfman 32:57
So, reinforce, so this means catching your child doing something effective, and pointing it out? Right. So in whatever way you think if you know your, you know, your child, they would respond to so noticing them using a skill, a coping skill, and maybe mentioning that, like I noticed, when you had an argument with your friend, you really took some time to think about what you were going to say before you texted them back back. And I you know, I really think that helped you communicate your point of view more clearly, right? Something like, you know, can be very simple. But to be able to notice them using a skill and then support that either by pointing it out by to being specific about what you think the benefit was. Maybe just gently noticing it, right? So anything like that, where you're you're focusing on drawing out those positive coping skills can be very supportive.
Hannah Choi 33:54
And that's very cool. So I imagine that in DBT, the parent portion of it is maybe bigger than in other in other types of therapy. Am I right?
Jackie Wolfman 34:08
Yes, especially with adolescents. So there are some DBT groups where you have adolescents in their own group and parents in their own group. And there are other groups where the adolescents and their parents are together and what we call multifamily groups. So you have multiple families in the same group, and everyone is learning and practicing the skills together. So it really reinforces this idea that this is not just for the student. This is also for the parents to be learning and practicing these skills as well and really working together. There also can be DBT parent guidance where parents or caregivers are meeting with a DBT therapists themselves to get help and coaching on how to use the skills with their children. So it does tend to be a big part of the treatment especially with younger folks.
Hannah Choi 35:02
And I imagine that if a if a child is at high risk than their parents are probably going to want to be involved.
Jackie Wolfman 35:12
Yes, yes. Yeah, it's absolutely important.
Hannah Choi 35:17
Yeah, we even see that in coaching kids, we have coaching coordinators, which are the family connection. So that the coach works with the client. And then the coaching coordinator works with the families and answers any questions that they have. And yeah, it's not like full on coaching sessions, but they're available to help, you know, parents understand the process of change, and you know, why their child might be resisting, or you know, just how the coach is approaching?
Jackie Wolfman 35:48
Yeah, that's so important, because I think how parents understand their child's behavior really informs how they respond to their child, and just having a different understanding of what might be going on might really make a big change. And I think I've seen a lot of parents really appreciate that to be able to, you know, be given some different perspective on what's going on.
Hannah Choi 36:09
Yeah, especially when you as the parent can't relate to the child's behaviors, their just approach to life. Like if you're really different from them, yeah, it's nice to have to feel like you're being supported as well. So you can really support your child.
Jackie Wolfman 36:23
Yeah, yeah, I see that a lot as well.
Hannah Choi 36:26
Great. So speaking of executive function, would you would you say do you see? I mean, we know the research shows that there is a connection between executive function skills challenges and Melton mental health. Do you see? How does that show up in your practice?
Jackie Wolfman 36:45
I see it in my practice, because I see people come to work with me, because they're having difficulty with their emotions, or trouble in relationships, or other types of behaviors that they want to work on, that have been getting in their way. And then it comes to light, but they may also have ADHD, or that they're having a hard time organizing themselves. And that's part of what's maybe increasing their anxiety about their classes, or, you know, being able to maintain an internship. And so there's just and there's also a lot of overlap, I think, between things that you can see with executive functioning difficulties and some different mental health diagnoses. So you know, difficulty focusing cognitive difficulties, impulsivity. And so some of the skills that were initially maybe developed to help people with their moods or their emotions can also really help people who are having these types of executive functioning difficulties too, because a lot of the there's just so much overlap there. But I think the emphasis that we have in DBT on emotions can be very helpful, because when emotions are high, we all know, it's much more difficult to think clearly. And we think very differently, emotions are lower. And so having those tools to reduce the intensity of what you're feeling, understand it not feel like you're crazy for having these reactions can then help you think more clearly, and, you know, execute some of those skills much more effectively than when emotions are high and running the show.
Hannah Choi 38:27
I just, I just recently sat down with Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and, yeah, it was great. And she and she said something in her book, which really, really resonated with me and, and she said it, once you know the executive function skills, areas that you struggle with, if you notice that you are really struggling with them, and those things are really giving you a hard time, it's, it's a sign that you need to stop and pay attention to what's going on. And maybe you have too much on your plate, or maybe there's like a larger thing that needs to be addressed. And I just loved that, that advice and I use it for myself all the time. Like I have a terrible memory as the listeners now I've talked about this before and I noticed when I'm when I'm extra forgetful, I know that it means that I just have too much going on and I need to do something I need to do something needs to change.
Jackie Wolfman 39:22
I love that this idea that that it's telling you something important that you need to pay attention to. And I think emotions act in a similar way, right? Like what is this emotion telling me what is what is? What is it signaling to me about myself or the situation that I'm in? And then we know that can help figure out what to do from there.
Hannah Choi 39:42
Yeah, there's so much so much evidence and information and in our behaviors and are, how we feel. Yeah, I love it. I really approach my coaching that way. Like I love to ask "why?", like, let's really ask why. And you can ask why and get one answer and then you can ask why again for the whatever answer that was, and then you kind of really get down to the, the base of it. Like what's really, really, really going on? It reminds me of my parents used to call me the "why bird" when I was little because I asked why all the time? Practicing. Practicing for now.
Jackie Wolfman 40:19
Yeah, being curious.
Hannah Choi 40:20
Yeah, being curious is so it's such a, it can be a difficult thing to do because sometimes you don't like the answer you come up with. But it's so informative and just can really change your life. Yeah. So yeah. So you have anything else that you want to share, anything else that you think our listeners would, would benefit from?
Jackie Wolfman 40:46
I think one thing is that if you're going to be starting practicing some of these skills, to start with what feels easiest, start with something that you're drawn to. It doesn't have to be the biggest, most difficult thing that you can tackle at first. And like we said earlier, it's okay to make mistakes. And it's not always going to be easy. So I think, you know, that's something that's important to communicate. And, and really, just to having that respect for your own emotions and feelings and noticing if you're someone who judges yourself a lot for how you feel that that is also going to be an important thing to work on to really try to get back to that validation. Even that self validation of what is this I'm feeling and how does it actually make sense? Even when I feel like I don't like?
Hannah Choi 41:37
Yeah, it was it Walt Whitman, who said, Be curious, without judgment or something like, I'm sure whoever it was much more eloquent than that. But yeah, that's great. That's great advice. I guess, if you're just trying to change, do anything new, it's good to start with something that is small and feels like something that you're interested in that I don't think any change has ever been made by chewing, biting off the biggest piece and, and trying to make it happen. Yeah. All in all at once. That's great. And do you have anything going on that you're excited about?
Jackie Wolfman 42:14
I do. So next summer, we're going to be starting the pre-college, mental health prep. And then also coming up this fall, in addition to the DBT groups, I'm developing groups for those same age group range, so the college students and then the young adults up to age 30, groups for anxiety, and then a group for trauma. So I'm really excited to add those groups to what we're doing. Because I really believe in group therapy. And that experience is being so helpful for people and just really adding that extra support, in addition to you know, maybe their individual therapy that they have every week.
Hannah Choi 42:54
Have you noticed any change? I mean, you've been you've been in the business for a while now, have you noticed any change over the years with people's openness to therapy and talking about therapy?
Jackie Wolfman 43:07
I have, I think people have become more open to talking about therapy and willing to share that they're in therapy with other people. And I think even you know, maybe in part because of the pandemic, and how pervasive the difficulties with isolation have been for so many of us that it's it feels a little bit less stigmatized to ask for help around these things, because we just see so many people around us struggling in different ways. So, you know, it's it's possible that that has been helpful in that sense in terms of maybe reducing some stigma around it.
Hannah Choi 43:48
Have, do you notice a difference in the kids who are in your groups today post pandemic as compared to the kids that were in your groups before?
Jackie Wolfman 43:57
I think I think that just the real emphasis on feeling isolated, or feeling like things aren't going according to plan. Because they're not that you know, none of us expected this or planned for this or wanted this. So those are kinds of the themes that come up now that weren't as, that did come up before but weren't as strong before, that there was sort of this expectation of go to college I would spend a certain amount of time there. I would have my full senior year. I get to be with my friends right. And now there's just a such a uncertainty about the present and the future that is really hard to manage.
Hannah Choi 44:40
I was just want thinking like I wonder if maybe it maybe you've noticed this but I wonder if there's so this going through the pandemic is this collective shared experience that we've all had, and it is a form of trauma, right? Because it's like this small repeated exposure to difficult things over and over and over. And and I wonder if groups, people within groups therapy groups feel closer than they did before the pandemic? Because everyone's gone through the shared experience. I mean, I don't know if there's any way to measure that. But would you say?
Jackie Wolfman 45:16
I don't know. But anecdotally, I would agree, because I think it can be very validating to be in a space with people who have gone through similar things, which is what I hear a lot about the college groups that people really like, being in a group with other college students because of that shared experience. And because you're seeing that you're not alone with some of the things that you're struggling with. And if there's other people who are similar to you, in some ways, who might also be struggling. And so I think having that shared experience can be very validating, and comforting. And I do see people more seeking out groups, because they're looking for that connection with other people.
Hannah Choi 45:54
Yeah, right, right. And how wonderful is that they get the they get the social connection, and they get the side benefit of, or the side benefit of the social connection and the skills, the skills that they're learning with them.
46:05
Yeah, I think they're equally important, I really do being able to connect with other people and, and differentiate, you know, where we're different and where we're similar and have those types of conversations. There's not always a ton of spaces where we can do that. So it's really fun, actually, to be able to provide that. Because it's very helpful and supportive and exciting when you see people using skills. And then it's not just me as a therapist who's encouraging them. But you they start to encourage each other and rely on each other for, you know, being more skillful using more of these tools. And it's just, it's really fun to see that develop.
Hannah Choi 46:42
And Jackie, can you share with our listeners where they can find you and more about your work?
Jackie Wolfman 46:48
Absolutely. So they can go to the Village Psychology website, which is villagepsych.com. So it's village p-s-y-c-h.com. And you'll find a lot of more information about the groups that we offer, my background and also ways to get in touch.
Hannah Choi 47:05
All right. Well, thanks so much, Jackie. I'm so glad you were here today. And you shared everything with us. This has been really, really fascinating and really interesting. I'd love to have you back to talk about more.
Jackie Wolfman 47:16
Thanks so much for having me. I'd love to come back.
Hannah Choi 47:20
And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Jackie, thank you so much for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. Jackie is about to have her first baby so we send her all the best wishes from Beyond BookSmart. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening
Something we've wanted to explore more deeply on the show is how much of an impact Executive Function skills can have on our social lives. All of those EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships. To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs - a social skills expert. CEO of Simply Social Kids, and mother of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joined me to talk about how social skills and executive function skills are connected and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and ability to function in the world. We also dive into the importance of building resilience and explore some practical strategies to develop a mindset that allows us to overcome the inevitable challenges and roadblocks we face in life.
Related Resources
Simply Social Kids - Nadine’s social skills company website
Your Kids Can Achieve Social Success this Summer (With Your Help)!
ConversationHQ - Conversation starter resource
Resilience Training: How to Master Mental Toughness and Thrive
The Social Executive Function Skills That Elude Kids with ADHD
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
Something I find very interesting is how interconnected these EF skills are with every single aspect of our lives. We feel their effects at school, at work and at home. If we struggle with organization, our backpacks or kitchen counters might be classified as disaster zones. If our working memory is not strong, we may forget that we have a quiz today or forget to go to the grocery store after we go to the gym. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for us, coming up with an essay topic or figuring out a different way to get to work when the car won't start might feel impossible. And what we mostly read about and hear about is how these EF skill challenges affect our academic performance or affect how we work or manage our homes and families. And something that I wanted to explore more deeply is how much of an impact executive function skills can have on our social lives. All of these EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard, can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships.
To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs, who is a social skills expert, and also a mom of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joins me to talk about exactly this, how social skills and executive function skills are connected, and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and our ability to function in the world. Life is short, and it can be a lot more fun with friends. So taking the time to do a little bit here and there to improve our social skills through working on our executive function skills can make a huge difference. Hmm, okay, well, this is easy for me to say as an extrovert. You might be listening to me and rolling your eyes thinking No thanks. I'll just stay at home and snuggle with my Netflix. But hear me out because you introverts might have a partner or kids who have more social needs than you. And this episode is packed full of really useful tips and strategies to help both ourselves and our kids, find more meaningful interactions with people and hopefully make and maintain friendships that enrich our lives. Okay, so onto the show. Hi, Nadine, thanks so much for joining me today.
Nadine Briggs 02:43
Thanks for having me.
Hannah Choi 02:45
Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?
Nadine Briggs 02:48
Sure. I'm Nadine Griggs, I'm CEO of Simply Social Kids. And we have a social skills program where we work with ages eight to 28. And we have our in-person groups that are in Tyngsboro, Massachusetts, but we also have an online program for people who are not in our local area. We run weekly social skills groups to help them to make friend connections and just learn how to be more social.
Hannah Choi 03:09
That's great. So I guess through the lens that I'm always looking through is executive function skills, and maybe you know, kids with ADHD, anxiety, high functioning autism, how are those kids empower the social skills of those kids impacted?
Nadine Briggs 03:29
That's exactly who we work with - kids with high functioning autism, ADHD, anxiety, or just general awkwardness. They might not have a diagnosis at all, they just can't quite make friends. And they do struggle a lot. Because a lot of times, they're not able to really figure out how to initiate a social interaction, or they don't know how to get together with people like they want to hang out. And I usually and we'll talk mostly about teenagers today, I think in terms of that's, that's kind of the population that is struggling a lot with this. Because they're, they're no longer relying on their parents to schedule their playdates for them. And so it's really hard. They, they need the help, but they don't really know how to get that help. And they don't know how to initiate. So what often happens with teenagers is they're just alone. And they and they don't know how to get get out of their own way in that, in that sense. They don't know how to schedule time with other people. And some of the parents I've talked to more recently, we've had conversations about how they think that their kids are okay alone. And that's actually not true at all. They're not okay alone. They're really lonely. They just don't know how to initiate getting together with people. Or they might do it and it's a little bit awkward, or they don't have anybody they even know what a call or they're anxious about calling people. You know, a lot of times kids will say to me, he'll say, you know, what do you do over the weekend, they'll say, oh, I didn't do anything. And then they'll say, you know, nobody ever calls me to do anything with them. And I'll always ask them, Well, how many people did you call to do something with and when I flip that script, they always say no one because they just don't know how to really organize that and get that going for them and, and reach out to people. And they, a lot of it is their, their memory like they don't think about it, they forget, if I say, you know, a lot of times I'll write on the on the whiteboard at my center, I'll write up "text somebody on the drive home today". So it's fresh in their minds, or you know, is they don't think about it, and they then they get upset that they don't have anything going on. So it's kind of this lack of, of action that they they struggle with. So that's a huge piece.
Hannah Choi 05:29
Something that you said earlier, makes makes me think about, like you said, so up until the teenage years, or maybe tweens, parents have been the people that have helped them set up playdates and purely just because kids don't have little kids don't have phones, they don't have ways to, you know, to connect with their friends. So they need to use their parents, how can we - What are some things that we can do as parents to help kids shift from a from us, arranging those playdates to them, arranging them?
Nadine Briggs 06:03
This is where smartphones are really helpful for that, you know, one of the things that we suggest to parents a lot is just to create, like a social plan for your kid with your kid, I should say, not for your kid, because when you create a social plan, basically you sit down with your your teen and you say, How often would you like to see people? You know, you might have a kid on the spectrum who's fine with once a month or you know, a couple times a month might be fine. Or maybe when they do get together? It's a shorter amount of time than somebody who didn't have that diagnosis, they get they do get some social fatigue sometimes. So maybe it's a couple hours, rather than a four hour thing? Is it just how often should they get together? And then figure out okay, well, let's let's put something kind of in our minds or on the calendar of every other Friday or every other weekend, we're going to try to do something with people. See, you have that structure of in a month, this is how often I'm going to see people or, or maybe look at the clubs that are offered at their middle schools and high schools and say, Oh, how many of these do you think we should sign up for? And then kind of get again, getting those things on the calendar? You know, I think that's really important to figure that part out, well, how much socialization do we need? And then thinking about it? Who would I socialize with, who's who's kind of my shortlist of people, a lot of times, I'll take a, you just do like a circle within a circle within a circle kind of a diagram. With kids I work with, it's okay, who's in that inner inner circle? Who is in that next circle out that maybe you want to bring into your Inner Inner Circle and kind of create that list of people. So you have a focus of, I'm going to focus on this one to three people rather than, you know, 12 people here to give it something a little bit more manageable for them to focus on those people? And then figure out well, what do they like to do? You know, how do we get together with them? Where do I see them most often? Am I on a sports team with them? Are they in my class? You know, are they in scouts with me, you know, what, where do I see this person, and then start to figure out how you can spend time with that person and share like interest with them. So kind of chunking it down into smaller pieces, just like you would do with academic stuff, or executive functioning right and make it feel more manageable. If it's if it's too much, if you're trying to be friends with like everybody at the lunch table, rather than just the people on either side of you, that's when that anxiety can kick in. And once that happens, then they start to act out a little bit, they might either they might shut down. Or they might get overly silly, he might want to try to be really funny and humorous, and really show off he kind of thing. And when that happens, that puts people off too. And so when that starts to kick in, we get all sorts of things happen. And so we're trying to keep them them calm and just, you know, think about it more in a more organized fashion. And they just to be more deliberate in those ways, I think, yeah, right.
Hannah Choi 08:53
I had never really thought about that. Like, this is sounds silly. Again, it's switching gears a little bit to adults, but like my husband and I have very opposite social demands, needs. Like I'm very social, and he prefers to not socialize as much. And so I love that idea of sitting down and kind of breaking down like, well, this is what I need. And this is how I can reach that. And this is what you need and how you can reach that. So I imagine with within families that, that that does happen a lot, but between kids and parents and between siblings as well. So maybe everyone sitting down and doing a social plan and seeing how the family plans can fulfill that need for some people. And and maybe family plans won't fulfill that need for one of the kids and they need to have additional, like additional social interaction with friends or I mean
Nadine Briggs 09:46
you bring up a great point too, because a lot of the the apples don't fall too far from the tree sometimes. And so you might have parents who are really not that social. In here you have a kid who's not that social and they don't have any more of an idea how to help their child with socialization because they're not particularly social people. And that's where it you know, obviously having a social skills coach and getting some outside help can really be beneficial because they don't know how, and they don't know what's getting in their way.
Hannah Choi 10:12
Right? That's so interesting. Yeah. And so if their parents aren't comfortable with it themselves, and they're not going to be, it's going to be difficult for them to help
Nadine Briggs 10:22
Their kids don't have that role model. They don't if their parents don't have friends over for barbecues and things on the weekend, they're not seeing that, how that should look Yeah. So they're not really getting that in the home. Right. So they may be getting that at school. It depends who they're hanging out with at school, if that's a good role model, and maybe not a good role model.
Hannah Choi 10:42
Yeah, that's so interesting. I was just talking with my niece the other day, and we were asking her, and she doesn't have any siblings, and we're asking her how she felt about school ending. And she said that she was glad it was ending, because you know, it's tiring, school is tiring. She's in fifth grade. But then she said, but I'm going to be lonely, because I'm not going to be able to be with my friends all the time. And so and, and her mom is not she is a social person, but she's not super social. So I, I imagine that, that it's, yeah, I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here.
Nadine Briggs 11:19
It still might be a little bit on her to kind of say, Yeah, I'd like to meet some friends at the park or go to a, you know, an amusement park or mini golf. And, you know, in all those things in the summer, which are great ways to get together with people. But yeah, it is, it's very difficult if the parent isn't that social. And like I always suggest to parents to kind of think about where you might go, and then invite a bunch of people to join you at that date and time. And you might go and no one shows or you might go and maybe a few people come a park or something just saying we're going to be there's a park called Friendship Park near us and thinking about friendship. So it comes to my Friendship Park, you know, three o'clock on Saturday, you know, who wants to come and you hope you other kids will be there. But then you don't really have that pressure of, I've asked this one person and me. So they could just show up at the same time. I used to do that a lot with my kids when they were little, like so we're all going to go to the movies at this time on this day. Who wants to come with us? You know, we're going to be in this we're going to be in this row. That was before you had to really Yeah, exactly. No know, but then that we would just other people like, yeah, we'll meet you there, you know, and it would took a little bit of the pressure off of, you know, inviting those individual person and then having them reject you.
Hannah Choi 12:35
Yeah, right. I love that. And I love what you what you said about how you can use like the same skills that you use to break down academics into smaller chunks, you can apply that to social skills. So what are some other ways that kids can work on, maybe not work on their executive function skills, but use their emerging executive function skills to support their social skill development?
Nadine Briggs 13:01
You know, one of the big issues is the the memory challenge. A lot of these guys don't have great memory. And, and that's a problem because you think about when you socialize with somebody, let's say you're gonna go to, you're gonna go to the market, you're gonna bump into somebody you haven't seen in several months. Right away, you're gonna go, your mind is gonna go okay, what do I know about this person? What I know about their life? What is the last time I saw them? What was going on with them? And you're filtering that out? Geez, what was the thing that I just last knew about them? And you might have maybe their kids studied abroad, or you know, to ask, Oh, how was Italy or something, you'll remember those things. Kids who have that, that challenge. They don't necessarily remember those things about people. So they don't know how to find that information about that person, retrieve it, and come up with it. And so, a lot of times what we'll do, if that's a random example, that you're going to bump into somebody at the market, but if you're going to get together with somebody you haven't seen in a while, spend some time deliberately thinking about what you remember about that person. Give yourself that opportunity to say, All right, I'm gonna get together with Susie, what do I know about Susie? Susie just got a new puppy. You know, last time I saw her. Okay, well, let's ask about the puppy. Those types of things. So I think they need to think about some of that stuff before they go. And then sometimes even to, to prepare them for socializing. They can put a few little notes in their phone and the contact for that person likes Fortnight, you know, just got a puppy, whatever information they have about that person. Now they have to remember to put the note in the phones. So we can have that challenge. Yeah, that is a great way to have just a couple little things. I'm not gonna put a big dossier on the person your phone, there's a couple little things about them, and then even go through like a conversation starter website. There's one that we like called Conversation HQ. And I'll see the kids just scroll through the conversation starters on conversation HQ. And don't ask them verbatim and say "where do you where would you be five years from now?" or whatever it is, like, look through them and find one that is something you might actually say. Or maybe it triggers something that you can change it to something you'd actually say. So it's not that you're going to sit there. And you're basically, you know, interview the person with all these conversation starters, you're going to just kind of get ideas for what you might want to talk about. And then you use it in your own words, using your own language so that it's more natural for you. And it's something that you'd actually say, but you have those topics in your head. Right, like, like it, let's say they love nature. And we had a, I don't know, the meteor shower the other night, which it was cloudy where I was, and then we got to see it. And let's say that, you know, you've had that conversation with somebody, they also like space, right? You could say, "Hey, you happen to catch the meteor shower." "Oh, it was cloudy near me." Did you happen to see it? Or do you think there's life on other planets, you start to get in a conversation perhaps like that, if that's something you know, that they like, I wouldn't just randomly walk up to somebody, and say "Do you believe in life on other planets?" But if that's your thing, you just start so they go through and you might scroll, scroll through a lot of them before you have some that are something you like. And if you think you'll forget, put a couple little notes in your phone. And on the drive there, review some some of the notes that you have about that person to help spark those memories for them.
Hannah Choi 16:17
It reminds me of like test prep, right, like getting ready for tests, prior knowledge and like doing a little research. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. It actually reminds me, I remember my husband once. He was he said to me, oh, yeah, I was just thinking, we're getting together with so and so you know, tonight or whatever. And so he was he was trying to remember like, what sports teams that that person liked. And he was reading up on the articles about the those teams.
Nadine Briggs 16:52
Yeah, it helps. Because then you're, then you feel less anxious. And you might not end up even talking about sports. But that helps your anxiety. Yeah, kind of, you're in check. You feel more prepared that you've I mean, I believe because I'm a very social person, I'm a lot, My husband and I are a lot like you and your husband. I'm the social one. He said, "you just saw people, do you really need to see people again?"
Hannah Choi 17:12
Yes, yes, I do.
Nadine Briggs 17:14
You know, but I don't even do that. If I'm gonna go to a barbecue where maybe I only know the people hosting it. And I might know of the other people and seeing them in a while, or I know them, but I'm not really friends with them. And we're just more acquaintances, you know, I will do the same thing and start to think what do I know about that person? What is last time I saw them? What are some things I might be able to talk to that person about and prepare myself so that I don't feel uncomfortable going to a place where I don't really know that many people? So I think it's a pretty good strategy and for, for kids with executive functioning challenges, I think that it calms their anxiety and it prepares them with some topics, and they can even make some notes in their phone and just go to the bathroom and review. me look at my notes on some kids might do. It's I work with, you have to tell them to not necessarily, yeah, do it verbatim, or they write a little bit black and white in their thinking and a little bit literal. So you have to tell them, it just wouldn't just go to the bathroom and take a look at your notes in there. Don't do it in front of the person. Yeah, believe it or not, that's one of the things we need to do is just connect those dots that are obvious to other people aren't necessarily obvious to the people that we work with. So we have to say things that aren't normally said out loud, like things like that.
Hannah Choi 18:25
Right? Right. But how wonderful that you're teaching the kids that and because if they're if they don't have anyone in their life that either feels comfortable telling them that or it just doesn't, they just don't know what to tell them that then then that's, that's so great. And I'm sure that they feel comfortable with you telling them that because you've created a safe space and, and they're, you know, they're
18:48
That relationship with the kid is really important, because we are the ones if they tell a joke that's not funny, you know, we're not going to do the polite laugh. Yeah. And that's what most people will do is it's my job to not do the polite laugh. And to tell you why that feels funny, because most people will do that, especially if they're feeling uncomfortable. They, you know, the social norm is to just laugh a little bit and hope they stop talking about the thing that's, you know, that's creepy, or whatever the topic is that they're talking about. And, you know, it's, it's our job to say, that's not a great thing to talk about with your friends. And so you do have to have a good relationship with somebody before you can be that brutally honest with them. Yeah. Right. And, and then they know that what the role is to it, they know that all our goal is is to help them make those connections so they can have those deep, meaningful friendships and not be lonely anymore. Yeah. And so once they know that, and that's what our motivation is, and they take it really well. I mean, they're great about it, and they, they do apply it to their lives. Sometimes they need to be reminded because they do have difficulty sometimes taking it on themselves taking responsibility for what they do. And so a lot of times we'll preface it by saying, are you ready to take what I'm about to tell you and apply it to your own life? Sometimes if we just prime them with that, then you get that buy in Yes, I'm about to take what you say and apply it to my own life, then that then you they're ready to receive what you're saying and really take it in. In sometimes that's needed for some kids.
Hannah Choi 20:17
And we do that with coaching to write like you like, you always just have to meet someone where they are. And you have to find out like, like, are you ready for this? Is this Yeah? Is this something that like you said, are you ready to take it on? So how can so so your you know, your, the social skills work that you do with your clients happens, like, like, they take that with them home, and they practice it, practice it at home, I'm sure how can parents support their kids that are that might be socially awkward, and might need to be working on these skills.
Nadine Briggs 20:51
Yeah, they practice it in our program, too, which I think is a big piece of it, because we coach them in the moment. So we teach them and then they get to, they hang out with other people their age, that they practice it there. So for parents, you know, there's an education for a lot of them, if they're, if they're naturally social, they're probably already coaching their kids quite well, because they know how to be social. If they're not, though, and they tend to be a little bit awkward. Either leave it to the professionals, or, or study up on it, there's a lot of really great books, there's a lot of, you know, good podcasts, and there's different resources and, and take that on as something that they need to educate themselves on. And they might need to look at all the different types of things that we would coach on, like conversation skills, flexibility, you know, perspective taking, not trying to control what other people do. And that's a biggie, and all the different pieces that go into socialization and figure out what are the things that your their kids struggle with the most, and then study those things, and help them with those things. Because again, trying to tackle everything at once is really hard. Social skills is vast, there are so many different pieces to socialization. And we coach on social skills, but also resiliency. And that's a whole other big topic of that. But I think they need that as well, because they do get some level of rejection in their lives. And they need to be able to bounce back from that. But they have to study up on it, and then help them apply it to their own lives and even have them apply, have the parents become more social too
Hannah Choi 22:15
Yeah, it might even help and might help them might help the parents.
Nadine Briggs 22:19
It's funny. We have a parent support group that we run for people who are enrolled in our program, they're welcome to come on every week for an hour. And we've had people come on who make friends with other people, as parents, and I'd had I'd one day I had this dad come sit at my desk and the nicest funniest dad, he's such a great guy, I mean, of all the people you want to be friends with, and you'd want to go out and have a beer with this guy. He's just that person. And he sat at my desk. And he said, Nadine, I gotta tell you, I don't have any friends. Oh, and it broke my heart. Of all the people in my program of all the parents who would have friends, it would be this guy. It's like, I feel I feel jealous of my wife. She's got friends from college, and they go what every Friday night and, and I sit home and my kids a teenager, and he's, he's in his room. And he doesn't talk to me and sit there by myself. But you know, we talked about how he could get out and you join like, the Lions Club or Kiwanis, or get involved in community service and, and get himself out there to meet people and socialized you, which is also going to give you know more of a role model for his kid who needed that.
Hannah Choi 23:26
Hmm. So was he able to?
23:28
He did, he did, he actually became friends with another dad, in our program. So we had before the pandemic, we had a parent waiting room, where they were able to socialize. And that was good for the parents to make friends with each other. And actually, what used to happen then, too, is I would go back and I would tell them what we did in the group, the lesson that we taught to all of the parents and they would talk about it themselves. Now we have to write a summary because I'm not allowing as many people in the building, but they still they get the lessons that we do in person that we tell them what we did and what we coached on. So then they can carry that forward with their kids. And they're using the same language and all of that, because they have it all in a written report every week. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 24:08
So something you said earlier, it makes me realize, but it really is so clear how connected executive function skills are to social skills, like the perspective taking and cognitive flexibility and emotional regulation. Those are really, really tied together. So I guess, I guess when kids are practicing working on their social skills, they are going to naturally end up working on executive function skills. And do you think the reverse happens like when kids work specifically on executive function skills, maybe in school or with a coach like if they're in executive function coaching, do you think then it then has a positive impact on their social skills?
Nadine Briggs 24:47
I absolutely do because you think about just even just taking like tasks and initiation. One of the biggest struggles with the kids that I work with is just going over to somebody and starting a conversation, right? They don't know how to do that. And so they tend not to do that. And even getting together, like I said, you know, here comes summer with all this fun stuff to do, let's say they all want to go to like an amusement park, you know, being able to kind of figure out all the details around that, and get that off the ground. So they actually go and it actually happens, you know, they're, they're using all kinds of executive functioning skills for that. So some of the kids I work with, I actually have a, an event planner that I give them, it's like this one pager and it's like our parents involved, well, how much time is going to be needed? Who's going to drive? Who am I inviting? Here's the website, what do you do if there's rain? You know, is there a plan B, like all of these details, in an event planner, and again, I have to say to them, you use the event planner, with your parents, you don't tell your friends that used an event, right to figure out how to go to amusement park, yeah. But those things are really, really very helpful to them. Because those are the details that they have a lot of trouble with. They don't know how to do all of that and figure out a day at a time and especially when parents are involved, and you're going to have a big group that goes, all of those things are really difficult for them. But yes, I think they, they learn and as you know, as kids get older, and they do start to learn, and they practice those executive functioning skills. It gets better as they get older. Right? Yes. And I see that with my own son, he's 22. Now he's almost 23. And he has ADHD, and for sure, his executive functioning has gotten much, much better as a young man than it was certainly when he was a teenager in middle school. Right? Socially and academically,
Hannah Choi 26:30
Yeah, all of those, all of those more advanced executive function skills are really just starting to emerge, at the same time that kids are starting to crave that independence and wanting to be friends have friends and interact outside of their parents. So that's this kind of an interesting crossover time where they're craving that independence, but they're also not really consistent yet, with all of those executive functions,
26:57
Righ, and teenagers get can get very upset if parents try to help them with their executive functions. There's a thing about it that's very triggering,
Hannah Choi 27:07
Right? I was actually just going to say that what I love about that event planner is that it, it gets the parent out of it. So that, that we see this a lot like it actually, when I was in my conversation with Fran, we were talking about how, when you can get yourself out of an executive function or a social skills challenge, like friction, then it can help your relationship with your child, it also gives your kid such a great opportunity to really develop those things independently, and practice those skills independently. But the event planner worksheet has all the things that they really need to be considering to have a safe and fun experience. That and those are all the things that a parent would say, like don't forget this. Don't forget that. Don't forget that. But then the parent doesn't have to because the event planner, maybe the parent just has to remind this their kid to use the event planner, but they don't have to say like well, you know, what are all the details?
Nadine Briggs 28:11
Exactly? Yeah. And they're gonna forget them anyway, even if they did,
Hannah Choi 28:14
Right. It's gonna be written down. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, like I would love to work on that. You know, like use like I'm just thinking about like coaching like how how what an awesome activity to do in an executive function coaching session is to work on an event planning activity because
Nadine Briggs 28:35
Yeah, the kids that work on that all their friends benefit greatly from that time because I'm putting together all these events I'm doing the apple picking and the go visit the castle. And you know, and there's one young woman that I work with, and like her friends had it made, they were doing all kinds of stuff. They were going to Boston and they were shopping and be-bopping around Faneuil Hall and it was because I'm like I'm on the other end, you know with that event planner, saying "mom dad can they do this you?" know and then the other friends are just getting invited. They're like this is great. They don't have to do anything!
Hannah Choi 29:10
I love that and then and then the child who's who's arranging it gets such satisfaction now just seeing all her friends having fun and and having like I made this happen I did this. someone who like I bet there's ton of a ton of opportunities for them to see evidence like to look back on - like a year ago, I I could not have done this and now when I'm going to Fanueil hall with my girlfriends.
Nadine Briggs 29:37
Well the thing about that too is those experiences are so important because those are the bonding things right like when you're I was talking to a family last night they live out in like the Chicago area and I'm working with their their teen. And it's like you know when you let's say you have an ice cream social at your house, right and you have you know, the chocolate and vanilla and all these different things. When the kids start throwing marshmallows at each other. They're, and they're belly laughing over like, what somebody's got hit me I and all those little things that happen when you when you create those moments, and that's that bonding stuff obviously "if you belly laugh with somebody, you're pretty much gonna be friends for life". Yes. Those experiences where you had a little food fight and it was harmless and maybe one you know, fell under something and we had an ant problem six months later and mom got all upset that was totally worth it. Teenagers love that stuff. So then they then they remember that or they see a marshmallow and go, "remember this?", you know, and then all of a sudden, they're all laughing again. So it's, that's the stuff that really bonds them in that meaningful way. Those types of things. And that's why it's so important to create those moments in or have them create the moments eventually, when they're old enough to do it, and have the executive function skills to do it. So that stuff happens for them. Because that's, that's the bonding stuff. That's what creates lifelong friendships. Right?
Hannah Choi 30:56
I love that. It reminds me of something that my sister was telling me that she heard about was like, there's like three types of fun, like, type one fun, which is, I don't know, I'm gonna get them wrong. But one of one of the funds is where you end up in like a flow state where you you'd like lose track of time, you don't notice the passage of time and your belly laughing and you're just like, totally in it and having so much fun. And I think that's probably where like, not inside jokes come from, but, you know, like, just share these like shared common experiences that that kids like, like you said, like they find a marshmallow and everyone burst out laughing. Just seeing a marshmallow. And from an outsider perspective, you're like, what's so funny about a marshmallow?
Nadine Briggs 31:36
Right, exactly. Yeah, that's the bonding stuff. Those are those are the those are the really precious moments.
Hannah Choi 31:42
Yeah. And so if you, if you if it's, if it's challenging for you to get into social to create those social opportunities for you, then you're not good, then you're going to miss out on that. So I love that what good work you're doing. It's so wonderful.
Nadine Briggs 31:59
It's so much fun. Yeah, it's
Hannah Choi 32:01
fun with the kids. So I have, like, I'm gonna disc kind of repeating myself, but I'm just thinking about as a coach for executive function skills, a lot of the work that our coaches do is on academics, because you know, that's what kids spend a lot of their time doing. But then when we move into the summer months, it's a great opportunity to work on other things. So like that event planner is a good idea. Do you have any other ideas that that kids could work on during the summer?
Nadine Briggs 32:30
I like things, like socializing, I like things that are out in the community, because you can go to the thing, and you can leave when you're ready to leave. When you're, when you're at someone's house, there's pressure to, you need to make sure you have enough that entertains that person and there's going to be a drop off and a pickup time, that's going to be set. And what if you're done and there's 45 minutes left of your time, that can feel awkward and uncomfortable. And so you don't want to have negative social experiences, you want to have positive social experiences. So like at my center, there's actually a ice cream stand that's one mile down the road. And I say to kids all the time, my team groups is like into their parents, like bring an extra five bucks, and go get an ice cream. At this place. It's a mile down the road. And I know there's kids who go every time every single week after group, they go with their parents. But that way you go you have an ice cream, you're there for half an hour, you socialize for a bit, or maybe you're there longer if you're having good conversation, it's up to you at that point, and you leave when you're ready to leave. That's great. So those it anytime that you're doing something that you're you have that as a conversation topic. So you're going to an amusement park, and you can talk about your favorite rides and things you like things you don't like, what are you going to get for lunch? What prizes Do you want to try to win? There's all these these points of conversation that you can have when you do that. Or if even if you go bowling or a mini golf or anything like that bumper boats, those types of things that are available in the summer, then then you can talk about the golfing, right. Oh, look at that shot. Oh, I can't believe I got in the water that time and you have those things to help them to connect and bond over. It's a lot harder. When you're just someone's at your house. And you're you'll have to have conversation with them the whole time. And you've got to find things that entertain them the whole time is a lot more pressure. Yeah, that's so interesting. If you for adults, you think about you go out with another couple and you sit there at dinner. Yeah, you have to talk topics for that whole time at dinner, right? So if you go out to dinner with somebody new, you might be a little anxious because you're like, oh gosh, what if we run out of stuff to say before the check comes?
Hannah Choi 34:39
Maybe just drinks?
Nadine Briggs 34:41
Exactly. For apps
Hannah Choi 34:45
So in our basement, we when we refinished our basement and when the kids were little we were trying to decide what to do with the space. And and I said we're saying let's just leave it open and so we have like, like a Big beanbag, and we have swings that hang from the joists. And just like a lot of like gross motor fun things. And so when my, my friends have kids over, and I can tell they're like, it's kind of like, they're not really sure what to do, obviously go downstairs and play, you know, if they haven't already gone down. And it's fun to like, have just something to be silly with. So I imagine, you know, like going to the park or I don't know, like going for a walk or something where you're being physical is can kind of give you something to do with your body while you're trying to talk.
35:38
Yeah, this air hockey table that is at our center is enormous. Because when we think about this awkward teenage boy, let's say he's 14 and he walks in. He's anxious, he's socially awkward. He doesn't know anybody. He doesn't know me. He doesn't know any of the staff. He doesn't know any of the kids and he walks into a room with like, 10 other kids. Wow. That's a that's an ask. Yeah, that's a big ask. So when they walk in, I mean, obviously, we're there to greet them and everything. But one of the things I love them to do is to start playing air hockey. That's because then you're actively engaged in a social, you know, item, basically your game. Yeah, but you don't really have to talk.
Hannah Choi 36:12
Yeah. And it's one on one.
Nadine Briggs 36:15
One on one or two on two. Yeah. And you can talk about the shot, you can talk about a good shot, you know, we're almost got that one in. And then you already have that conversation starter right there. But you're engaged without just standing there awkwardly waiting for somebody to come talk to you. Yeah, you know, it's such a nice way to break in. Now. I do have to watch that table to make sure they don't stay at the table we can. There are some kids who will do that. And I have to say I need you to branch out from the table and go do something. I've tried something else. But yeah, we watch it. But it's a great way for them to start because they're again, they're busy, They're engaged. They're socializing, but they don't have to say too much yet.
Hannah Choi 36:53
That's great. So that makes that leads into a really good question that I have for you is, where do you start? Like if, like, where's a great place to start for someone who is struggling socially?
Nadine Briggs 37:05
Well, like I said, I would start with that plan, that social plan. And I would figure out what are what are their biggest hang ups for socialization is? Is it anxiety? Is it conversation skills? Is it that they don't have access to people that they would be friends with? Do you need to go join scouts or a youth group? Or you know, get yourself out there in some other way? So kind of narrow down? What is it we need? Do we need to work on anxiety? Do we conversation skills, do we need to find your people and they are way down that way and start start that way and the lowest lowest hanging fruit, you know, who is who are your people, and let's go find them and then start to ingratiate ourselves to those people, it kind of depends on the kid. There are some kids who who don't even realize even as teenagers, that they need to put themselves physically near someone else. Even in my center, I'll have a bunch of kids playing air hockey, and they're all watching the air hockey and one kid on the other side of the room. He doesn't necessarily understand that the signal you're giving is that you don't want to really be friends with people, when really it's your anxiety, just stand with everybody else. Put your body there and and be in that group, you know, those types of things. So that's where I would start is just to kind of break down? Where do we think the biggest issue is, and then if they need social coaching, and they need an intervention of some sort to seek that out, I think this summer, you know, we're, we're crazy busy this summer, I think because it is such a good time to get people kind of caught up, you know, from the pandemic, you know, a lot of people felt like they lost a couple years. And so this is an opportunity for them to just focus on the skills, and you know, things that they might not have been able to work on for the last couple and get ready for the next school year. You know, so if they're not able to do it, if the parent is kind of lost, and they don't know how to narrow down that list of friends and figure out where the problem spots are, and either study it up on their own, or get some outside help to do better with those areas that are making it difficult for them, you know, get help to do that so that their kids are moving forward, particularly teenagers, teenagers developmentally start to separate from their parents from at about age 11 ish, so that they can eventually leave the nest when they're right after high school. And when they start to separate from parents, they need to be able to latch on to peers. And if they don't have that peer group, they're just kind of floating out there without being tethered to anything. And that that's what that concerns me because they do need tethering to other teens. And they need to find that place where they're okay. They're accepted there. They belong. So it's really important for parents to find that. Otherwise, they're very unsettled. And you might even find that they don't want to pursue anything outside of high school, they want to stay home and we don't we don't want to have that basement of yours be used for a 35 year old. No, no, no. So right. You want you want that separation, you know, and so you have to help that happen because developmentally they they really crave and need that to be able to become a functional adult. Yeah, so it's critically important that they find that. And, you know, it's, it can be really difficult if somebody has super unique interests and all these other things. So you really have to help them find their way, one way or the other, if they can't do it, get outside help to help them do it.
Hannah Choi 40:18
Yeah. And I imagine as parents, I mean, it's, it's hard enough to, to let your kid you know, start to move away from you and out into the world when you when you're confident about your child's social skills. So I imagine that, that for parents whose kids do struggle with social skills, it is even harder to to, to support that or allow that to happen. And to do it's almost like you're like pushing them out of the nest.
Nadine Briggs 40:50
But well, I always say prepare them for whatever their next big phases. So if they're, if they're in elementary school, you're preparing them for middle school, you're in middle school, you're preparing for high school, when you're in high school, you're preparing for whatever's after high school. And if after high school is college for you, you have to be ready to live in a dorm. And so when you think unless you're going to commute or whatever, if you're gonna live in that dorm, you're gonna be just a few feet away from some other person you don't know. And you might even be in a forced triple and a little tiny room. That's a lot of socialization and connectedness to other people that you may or may not do well at. And so that can really affect kind of how you are over your overall well being if you're not able to do well in those settings. So I always look at if you're in middle school, and you're super socially awkward, let's get on it now, and get you ready for you know, if you if you think you're a college bound person, or even if you're not, you're even in the military, they have lived in close quarters. If you're working with people, you decide to go to trade school and you go to work, you know, a job, you need to still be able to get along with people, right? You know, and even in your first jobs, you know, when you're old enough to work, a lot of times your boss is maybe a power hungry teenager. That's right, you're not necessarily going to have some 40 year old seasoned manager knows how to handle you're right, you're gonna get somebody who's maybe not that great at managing people and in their own communication skills around your employment. Yeah, you know, those are all challenges they need to be ready for. So it is really important to get on all of these soft skills as best we can early as possible so they can be more competent.
Hannah Choi 42:29
Yeah, those transitions are huge. And I and I think it's, it can be difficult to be that forward thinking when you're in the middle of, you know, the, the difficulty of high school or the you know, the, the the challenges of middle school, it can be hard, it can be hard to be so forward thinking and but it sure does help if you're able to, I know that's something that we coaches work a lot a lot on is like the transition transitions, yeah, transition from from school to work, or from school to college and working on all the associated executive function skills that come with that and turns out there's a whole bunch of social skills, too.
Nadine Briggs 43:09
Finding your voice, finding your confidence, you know, if someone says something to you being able to kind of report back or say something back to them that feels comfortable to you. And those types of things are important, like I that one of the young women I work with, she's super shy, and people will say things like, Oh, I can't believe she talked, you know, and I tell her I say yeah, I did. Yeah, just like of course I did. I did that like, Yeah, you bet I did! you know, to get her from oh my gosh, I can't believe they said that, too. Yeah, I did is a journey, you know, and but by the time they're done with high school, we want them to be in the Yeah, I did. And yeah, I am, you know, here I am worlds, you know, are you ready for me and have that kind of confidence in themselves. And then that takes time to build that up if they don't have that now and then so it's a it's a process to get there.
Hannah Choi 44:01
And it takes a lot of being brave and putting yourself out there and being vulnerable and trying new things, which is super scary. And I'm sure that the kids that come to you are so grateful for for what you do and the parents of the kids too, because it is so scary to try new things and to have a coach or you know, some kind of support person along with for the ride is invaluable
Nadine Briggs 44:25
yeah, we need to have resiliency is huge. The Resiliency is huge. You need to be able to work through these things and if they don't go your way. Yeah, you need to be able to find the silver linings on things.
Hannah Choi 44:37
Gold directed persistance gotta stick with it.
Nadine Briggs 44:40
You do, you do and it's all you got to train your brain to think that way. And so there's a lot of things we do to teach them how to do those exercises to get your brain in the right frame of mind around all of this. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 44:54
It's it's just, I just wish that I could give For every child, all of the things that they need, you know, I wish that every child could every parent could know about, you know, these kinds of support and get access to them. And it's wonderful to be able to do that.
Nadine Briggs 45:12
I agree, if you try to get the word out there as best you can, and you know, shout from the rooftops and hope that they hear you, you know, because it is so important, and it's life-changing stuff. And, you know, there should be a focus on academics. I know there is a big focus on academics, but this other stuff is just so so important, too. Yeah. And it's not enough to be smart. You need to have these other skills as well.
Hannah Choi 45:33
I do think that there is more, more conversation about it these days. And like we were talking, before we got on about the pandemic has created more opportunities to talk about challenges that people have, and more people are more open to being flexible. So I guess that's one good benefit about side benefit of the pandemic, is allowing these conversations to happen more.
Nadine Briggs 45:35
Absolutely. I mean, you know, I tend to be more of an optimistic person, I look at the silver lining of things. And honestly, with the pandemic, we went online. Yeah. And had we not, I mean, we serve kids from, you know, 11 different states and get kids from Canada. Yeah. They make friends. Yeah, we have a kid in Florida, I was friends with the kid and Long Island. And, and you know, and that never would have happened before. And so you have to look at those things, as difficult as creating a whole new program online was, you know, when it worked in the end, I mean, there were some bumps, so we had to figure things out. But you got to look at the silver lining of things, no matter what you're faced with and focus your brain on the things that are going well, versus the things that don't go well.
Hannah Choi 46:45
And what a great attitude to go into learning social skills with, you know, you can look for the little tiny thing, little tiny win that you have that you know that you weren't able to do yesterday, I said hi to somebody, and yesterday, I couldn't even look at them.
Nadine Briggs 46:58
So yeah, exactly, exactly.
Hannah Choi 47:02
That's great. So what are you excited about or looking forward to in the field of social skills development for kids?
Nadine Briggs 47:10
I am really excited that in the social skills development, that there is a really big movement on teaching the resiliency piece of things. I think that's a really big missing element to it. But what it what it is, it's more with this kind of building the muscles in your mind that are focused on things that are going well, versus the things that are not going well. So it's kind of like if you're thinking if you're focusing on the woe is me all the time, though, that's the the firings in your brain that are going to they're going to solidify for you. If you're thinking about the things that go well, those are going to be the things that you bring that get the most strength, it's kind of like going to the gym and lifting weights, right? You, you want to lift your optimism weights and not your negative weight, like that has some has some weight. Yeah. And so we do that with kids all the time. And like if I hear from from a parent, so for example, I have this one kid whose parent will email me and say, Oh, my gosh, the change in my kid, I hear him when we carpool with other people making conversation now in the backseat with the kid, rather than just being quiet the whole ride. The next time I see that kid, I'll go, I heard you're a rock star on those carpooling trips, and that you're now making conversation with people where you didn't used to make conversation before. And I'm really impressed by that. So by saying that to him, he's all like, oh, wow, like, I, she's reinforcing what I'm doing. I'm really taking what she taught me and doing it, she sees me. And that encourages him to do it even more not to mention the fact that he's made a connection with that person. So it's all that kind of stuff. Like I'll say things to kids, like, I'm really impressed by you, or I like the way you think. People never get told they like the way they think. So there's little, there's little phrases and things like that, that that are, they're just embedded into the into how we interact with people. We do things with kids, we have these things called "I CAN" cans. And basically like I'll take like a Crystal Light container that has those those packets in it, you know, that plastic container when it's all gone. And we'll put like, colorful paper around it and just say "I Can" on it. And, and so those are a nice little tool for parents to use in their homes. It's probably from a little bit more for your younger kids than teenagers. But just you know, the things that you can do, like, you know, I can do this, like I know, I can get my homework done on time, or I can be a good friend of somebody who's sad. And when they see evidence of the things they're doing well, right, you put the little note, you can do this and you put it in the can. And it's like it's kind of like never giving an empty compliment to somebody. Yeah, you saying like, Oh, you're such a nice person. Now you're such a nice person. Because when I saw this kid struggling with how to play that game, you'd pull them aside and you explained it to him with a lot of patience. That that's a that's a loaded compliment where I'm telling this person exactly why I'm saying they're a good friend. I'm not just saying it because I want to say something Nice, I'm saying it because I mean it. And here's the evidence that I saw, that shows me what a good friend you are to that person. And so that that's the power of that sort of thing is like, you're not just, you're not just blown fluff at somebody, you do have an evidence based reason for saying what you're saying to them. And I think that's really powerful for them, because they can really latch on to that, and it doesn't feel like left to them, it feels really meaningful. And then you're gonna get more of the same from that person, because it was acknowledged in a really positive way.
Hannah Choi 50:31
Right? That's so great. Well, I hope that continues to be used in in schools and different environments where kids are over the coming year.
Nadine Briggs 50:44
And I think that's the challenge schools are overwhelmed. So you say, oh, let's bring in you know, positive education and resiliency training and well being it that that's the challenge right now, I think, to the, to the people who are really interested in spreading the word about this stuff. That's, that's the challenge is that it almost needs to come from the children. And I think that's, that's programs like mine, where we're teaching it, and then they're showing other people the power of it, like a little army of Optimists out.
Hannah Choi 51:15
Well, that's something that I've talked about on the podcast before and just something that, you know, as a coach, I try, like, my, my ultimate goal is that my clients will go out and into the world and, you know, share what they've learned in their coaching sessions and, and help others with their own executive function, skill development. So it's the Yeah, same idea. And I'm sure that, you know, just like we as parents model things for our kids, our kids can model the model for their friends.
Nadine Briggs 51:43
So it's sometimes for their parents.
Hannah Choi 51:45
And yes, that's right. Yeah, right.
Nadine Briggs 51:49
I have a six year old who is who sometimes will, social coach his mom.
Hannah Choi 51:54
Great. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has just been fascinating.
Nadine Briggs 52:01
I thank you for having me.
Hannah Choi 52:02
Yeah. Where can our listeners find out about you and your program is available? Worldwide? Sounds like so. Yeah, just share with share where people can find you.
Nadine Briggs 52:13
Yeah, simplysocialkids.com is the website. And usually we do as an intake for for new families so we can determine if the program is a good fit for their child or their teen or their young adult. And then we do free trials. So with they'll set them up for a free trial, they can take it for a spin. So they think of it and then if they're interested, they can enroll.
Hannah Choi 52:30
That's great. Oh, good. Well, best of luck to you. And, and I'm sure there's, like you said an army of kids out there that are spreading the spreading the good social skills that they've learned from you.
Nadine Briggs 52:42
Let's, let's hope so, that's the goal!
Hannah Choi 52:46
All right. Well, thanks again, for talking with me. I really appreciate it.
Nadine Briggs 52:51
Thanks for having me.
Hannah Choi 52:54
And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Nadine. And hopefully you learned something that will empower you or your kids to enrich your social lives. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics that we cover in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts with all those new friends you're gonna make. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and you can easily find the resources that we share on each topic. Thanks for listening
Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.
I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.
Related Resources
Executive Skill Questionnaire-Revised
ESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!
Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-R
Smart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard Guare
Smart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered website
Helping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills.
Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does.
But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire.
Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode.
Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans.
Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty.
Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show.
Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?
Peg Dawson 05:41
Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.
Hannah Choi 08:18
I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.
Peg Dawson 08:28
Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.
Hannah Choi 08:53
Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,
Peg Dawson 10:31
yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not so
Hannah Choi 11:16
yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.
Peg Dawson 12:00
Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...
Hannah Choi 12:43
Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,
Peg Dawson 13:02
yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.
Hannah Choi 14:05
Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.
Peg Dawson 14:24
Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,
Hannah Choi 15:59
yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.
Peg Dawson 16:16
So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.
Hannah Choi 19:29
I saw that too.
Peg Dawson 19:30
So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.
Hannah Choi 20:08
Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?
Peg Dawson 21:18
So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.
Hannah Choi 22:44
Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.
Peg Dawson 22:49
And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.
Hannah Choi 26:22
Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,
Peg Dawson 27:03
Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.
Hannah Choi 28:00
Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.
Peg Dawson 28:33
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.
Hannah Choi 29:30
And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. So
Peg Dawson 29:50
I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's such
Hannah Choi 30:33
If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.
Peg Dawson 30:36
It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.
Hannah Choi 30:59
Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.
Peg Dawson 32:09
Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. So
Hannah Choi 33:08
yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,
Peg Dawson 33:34
right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 33:46
So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.
Peg Dawson 38:27
I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.
Hannah Choi 39:29
Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.
Peg Dawson 39:34
Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.
Hannah Choi 39:37
Do you have any questions for me?
Peg Dawson 39:39
So how long have you been coaching?
Hannah Choi 39:41
I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.
Peg Dawson 40:05
Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?
Hannah Choi 40:19
That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?
Peg Dawson 42:02
Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.
Hannah Choi 42:15
They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.
Peg Dawson 42:56
I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But and
Hannah Choi 43:19
so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?
Peg Dawson 44:55
But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.
Hannah Choi 45:40
And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.
Peg Dawson 46:44
And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,
Hannah Choi 47:55
if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?
Peg Dawson 48:41
No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.
Hannah Choi 49:19
But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?
Peg Dawson 49:34
So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.
Hannah Choi 49:57
I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it!
Peg Dawson 50:00
Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?
Hannah Choi 50:02
They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting.
Peg Dawson 50:13
And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.
Hannah Choi 50:25
Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.
Peg Dawson 50:40
Thank you. This was fun.
Hannah Choi 50:44
And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!
When we look to a professional for support, we may be looking to improve our mental health or confidence, but at a fundamental level, we're really hoping to change our lives. So what does that mean when it comes to Executive Function support? In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you’ve listened to those episodes already, you’ll have heard them share that while it hasn’t been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey, so I reached out to Fran Havard, who is a mom of four kids, two of whom have executive function challenges. Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she’s one of Beyond BookSmart’s EF coaches and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator or, as you’ll hear her call it “CC”, by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she’s learned and how she manages all of this.
Here are the show notes for this episode:
Helping our Kids Learn EF Skills
Activities Guide: Enhancing and Practicing Executive Function Skills with Children from Infancy to Adolescence
Helping Kids Who Struggle With Executive Functions
Smart But Scattered Kids book by Peg Dawson, Ph.D.
A Day in the Life of an Elementary Schooler with Executive Function Challenges
Finch App for Android or Apple devices
Helping Ourselves Practice EF Skills
Executive Skill Challenges: Adults Have Them, Too!
Executive Functioning in Adults: The Science Behind Adult Capabilities
Support for Adults: New Ebook from an Executive Function Expert by Michael Delman, Beyond BookSmart CEO
How to ADHD YouTube Channel
How to Work or Study in a Noisy Environment
Staying Focused in a Noisy Open Office
6 Ways to Minimize Distractions in a Noisy Work Environment
Why Are Power Tools So Loud?
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now, and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you've listened to these episodes already, you'll have heard them share that well. It hasn't been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey.
So I reached out to Fran Havard who is a mom of four kids, two of whom who have executive function challenges. And Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she is one of Beyond BookSmart's coaches, and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator, or as you'll hear her call it "CC" by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she's learned and how she manages all of this. I don't want to give too much away. But as you listen today, you'll hear that recording this episode challenged my attention and cognitive flexibility executive function skills like no other. This episode is authenticity in practice, we are truly keeping it real. Now on to the show.
Hi, Fran, thank you so much for being here today. Do you want to start off by telling our listeners a little bit about you and your background?
Fran Havard 01:48
Sure. My name is Fran and I'm a parent first. I've joked with a lot of people around me that I wear many hats. So when they're interacting with me, they got to make sure I'm wearing the right hat. So if I go to meetings, and I'm in my journalist hat, I have to announce that ahead of time, if I'm in my doctoral classes, I announce that ahead of time. I am a parent first though, for children ages 5, 8, 9, 8? I think he's about to turn nine. So nine and 10 and 12. I have worked with adolescents most of my life. I coach, older us adolescents, usually at 19 starting college. And that is my favorite age group to work with.
Hannah Choi 02:34
Can you explain a little bit more about the roles that you've played at Beyond BookSmart? Just so we can kind of get a little more understanding about your perspective when it comes to executive function challenges.
Fran Havard 02:46
So I play two roles at beyond booksmart. One is I work with families as a coaching coordinator. So I sort of as a support with the coaching process, but not in the role of coach. I answer I, you know, explain or narrate the growth process to families and I you know, celebrate the successes when we've met another part of the change process. And we're in a different phase of development, I, you know, communicate what's happening in coaching, I answer questions about, you know, if there's resistance to coaching, what that means and how we overcome those hurdles. And I'm also a coach, so I work, I'm also living the challenges that our coaches are living with and living the successes that we're seeing through this process.
Hannah Choi 03:35
And, and you're also a parent, do you like I know myself being a parent, I, I bring a lot of what I what I've learned about executive function into my parenting, how does how does, being a coach and a coaching coordinator affect you as a parent?
Fran Havard 03:56
So actually, how I started coaching is an interesting story. I knew, you know, I was a stay at home parent, I had left teaching. And I was sort of working in virtual ed. And I had a child who was she was, I didn't know what it was, I'd been in teaching for a decade. She was messy. Everything was messy, like the hair, the books, the backpack, everything was all over the place. And I just started like, I mean, like the emotions, everything was just and I had an older daughter who was neat and tidy, right? And then the second daughter came along, and I couldn't believe how different they were and I thought that's strange. So I started like googling like anything else just seeking out why is like, literally Why is my kid so messy? And somehow I stumbled across this language called executive function. It was like new at the time. I don't know it was like it felt like new language that I hadn't even heard as a teacher as a veteran teacher. And so I started to look more about it, and then all of a sudden, I hit the on Beyond BookSmart. And I said, Well, you know, at that point I'm not working, but I applied for the job because I thought if I could learn what they're doing, and I could try it, maybe I could help this really messy kid I have. And that's how I started Beyond BookSmart. And it turned out that I ended up out of four kids, two are very messy. And what I realized the most through asking you like, your question is, what do I learn, I learned the language to communicate with them, you know, that I wouldn't, didn't, that I wouldn't have had without, you know, being an executive function coach, like, how to help them reflect on their experiences to help them grow, you know, and learn how to listen more to them, rather than trying to force them into a mold that they, they're, you know, like squeezing them, but you know, you can't put them I've learned how to accept that they're not going to be neat and tidy. And that, either I get them to, you know, through that messiness articulate their authentic selves, or, you know, I'm forever nagging and yelling at them. And I think executive function coaching, which you think, Oh, you must be so perfect and organized to do this job. But, you know, that's how I learned I had ADHD, that's how I learned my children had ADHD, you know, I learned what it was, through my interaction with it, it's a learning, you know, it's a, it's a different style of learning, and being and observing and knowing. And we just have to find how you can be that person in another environment that wants you to be a certain way. And then through reflection, through questioning, and I would say, you know, as a coach, and as a parent, that's what I've learned how to coach my kids.
Hannah Choi 07:02
Is I one thing that we hear a lot from parents, and I'm sure you have to is parents feeling like, like, I didn't know, like, I didn't know what was going on, or like, I knew something was off, but I didn't know what it was. And then, you know, like, I wish I had done something differently, or I wish I had found, you know, about executive function, just executive functions earlier. Did you go through any of that?
Fran Havard 07:30
Oh, absolutely. It was like, there's this expression, if you can name it, you can tame it. Yeah. And I found when I could name those EF executive function areas, like, you know, metacognition, or planning, prioritizing time management, task initiation, if I could name it, see the strategies that I could bring in. But before I could break it down and see those parts, I just saw a big mess. Once I can name the parts, I was able to analyze how those pieces were coming together to create what I was seeing in front of me. And that's knowledge feature, every parent, every kid needs to know. Because if you can say, task initiation is my struggle right? Now, I know I don't want to do this, but I'm going to give myself a five minute goal to get over this hurdle, you will find that they are the awareness to know what their drag is use that tool to get through it. And then it's not failure. That's why I love executive function coaching because these messy kids meet failure again, and again, because they don't know how to name the pieces. So it just seems like a giant mess. And if anything that I've learned from working this job, it's like it's and I always say this with clients. It's a constant unraveling, like this braid on the back of your head, and you're pulling apart the strands, and you're rebraiding it. So that it's, you know, how they want it braided but it has shape, it has definition and the parts are recognizable.
Hannah Choi 09:15
I love that. So when you're working with families, and you're working with the you know, so say the child is in coaching, and the child has you know, been identified as someone who is not like fitting in to the mold I mean, really they are they just haven't found the strategies that work for them to fit into society as it is. Now I'm sure there's like a world somewhere where messy people would just be like embraced and welcomed
Fran Havard 09:44
In their their messy world right? Yeah. children's book writer that has that messy character it's like this blob of color and you know, the sunshine guy he's got Mr. Messy is my favorite character of all because it's like You're just like, what is it? It's like, I wish I had a piece of paper, but it's like this big scribble guy walking around with.
10:08
I think I remember that
10:08
He reminds me of my daughter, you know, use that metaphor we use that. I use that with her so that she laughs about it, because, and you gotta you gotta have laughter right?
Hannah Choi 10:20
Yes. Speaking, I don't know if you can hear it, but there's some kind of loud noise going on
Fran Havard 10:25
Is someone serenading me? What's happening out there?
Hannah Choi 10:28
I don't know. There's like a loud drill or a saw, like people don't realize I'm recording right now? (laughter)
Fran Havard 10:34
I thought that was a song I was like, kids playing instrument out the window. (laughter)
Hannah Choi 10:39
No, it's the neighbors. Okay. A big part of parenting, at least I know, for me, and many of my friends is this guilt that we that we feel. Regardless, like, regardless of what the topic is, what area of life it is we're bound to like find some, you know, something that we fault ourselves for. Do you? Does that come up in your conversations with parents?
Fran Havard 11:02
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important that, you know, me having had the experience of not knowing what was happening and having an experience where I was yelling at my kid, you know, to get them to put their shoes on, or find their backpack or wonder why one morning, she grabs a backpack, puts it on her back and gets ready for school. And it's not even her backpack or you know, I've had those experiences, where you can't understand why they just don't get it. So for me to have made changes to my own behavior, such as: This is your hook. This is your backpack. For me to have made changes to how I parent and my expectations for her and how I can better support her and the youngest son made a world of difference on conflict in the house. So whenever I work with parents, I some part of the conversation that I'm listening to what they're saying, I'm hearing that your son is not filling out a Google Calendar. But what I'm saying to you is, what can we do to sort of support that process? How can we help? Because telling my daughter to pick up her backpack and put it on her back? Doesn't mean she's gonna know which backpack. And so just because your son has a Google Calendar, how can we increase the our interest in it, get engagement, you know, engage with that tool, as a family. And I feel like a lot of my experiences as CC is translating.
Hannah Choi 12:44
I know for myself, like my son is very forgetful. He's he's very much like me. And so. So every morning, it would it was this constant thing of me saying like, did you get this? Did you get that? Did you get this? Did you get that? And I'm like, What are you doing? Hannah, you need to you need to approach this like a coach. So we made a list. And we have a list on the door that goes out to the, we leave from our garage, so there's a door that goes out there. And so there's a list on there. And he's gotten so good every morning, he stands there in front of it. And he's 10. And he stands there in front of it and reads everything off and then scampers off to get the one thing that he forgot. And it and it's totally taken the stress out of the mornings. For us. It's, it's absolutely, it's taken the pressure off of me, it's removed that from my role, which is great for him and for our relationship.
Fran Havard 13:33
Exactly, because it gives them I know exactly what you're saying. Because there's this tool that I used with one of my children, I just started using an app where it's one of my clients actually showed me this, they said they use this little character, and you set goals for yourself. And you design your character and you set goals like brush your teeth in the morning, make sure your math homework is packed, wear underwear. Your parents of kids with executive function issues, like the first thing you're like is you put the underwear on, you know, because that step they miss. So like we have tags like that on this app. And then they he comes in the morning, and he'll slide that he did these things. And then the character will get moving. And the character goes on an adventure. And you don't know that's adventure. It's just it's little penguin walking. And and when you do more, it shortens the journey. So they, he will come home from school and he'll pick up his iPad to look at his penguin and what the penguin found on the journey because it's usually a four hour journey or five, he'll make find coconut milk, he's like, "Ma, I found coconut milk". And I'll be like "that's amazing!", but it all stems from him having done those acts and that's tied to the metaphor of task initiation. Right, right.
Hannah Choi 14:51
Yeah. I love that. That's great. We will include more about that app in the show notes if anybody wants to get in We have that. So if any, any of our listeners hear this noise in the background, the house next to me is apparently undergoing some kind of alteration, there's some wild saw or drill or something going on. My apologies
Fran Havard 15:13
I'm a bit nervous about the timber part, when whatever they're sawing falls down.
Hannah Choi 15:20
Okay, they obviously do not see the big red Record sign that I have, that I should have. Something that I write about a lot. And I, I struggle with myself a lot is this expectation that just because we are executive function coaches, we kind of put this pressure on ourselves, like, oh, maybe we are also supposed to be excellent in all of our executive functions. And I think executive function coaches are such great examples of how no one on this earth has perfect executive functions. And so where, what if What areas do you have to work on and what challenges do you find?
Fran Havard 15:56
You know it's funny because when I think about executive functioning coach, we're just having strong executive function, it doesn't always have to look neat and tidy. Like, I have a friend who is, I mean, counters are sparkling, everything is white, got three kids, right? Everything's still white, even with the three kids running around the house, everything has a container, I'll never be that person. So what executive function skills look like, for me, are not what they look like for other people. And for me, it's become like, it's about knowing how to prioritize what's important. That's strong executive, you know, how many projects we deal with every day, when we sit down? If you have four kids, three of those kids are classified special ed. I mean, that alone is a bucket, that alone is a task list. Yeah, that's how I think in those terms, you know, I think I have to do X, Y, and Z, my house doesn't look perfect. My purse, I, I haven't carried one in a very long time. Because I, I lose it, you know, like, but what I've gotten really good at is thinking in categories, and then sub categorizing. And I can, you know, I've gotten good at a planner or, you know, things like, things like that, when it comes to executive function, but and that's what I say, like, we have this image of what's perfect, what has very strong executive function skills. And if there is like, anything that I've learned as a coach, and as a parent, there's no perfect, there's no perfect if you can figure out like, you know, this is all about the change process, if you can figure out what you want to change, and own that and want that and that's the hardest part. And that is the hardest part of executive functioning as a, you know, strength. It's most people that are good at it, either a going through the motions, or B, they know what they want. And that that's nuts. That's the difference. So you know, if my friend has a perfect pristine house, she prioritizes that executive function area, all right, I don't. I mean, I literally went to bed last night with dishes in the sink. My friend would have a mini heart attack if that happened. Like she she says and understand she I called her once and I was like, What color should I paint for these cabinets? And she's like, I can't watch that video. I was like, Why can't you watch the video? She goes, You left all your cabinet doors open, who leaves the cabinet doors open? You know, like for her executive function coaching is everything neat and tidy.
Hannah Choi 18:38
My god, I seriously think there's someone. Also, there's like someone here.
Fran Havard 18:45
In your house? I didn't notice, I feel like you're doing great. But I'm like trying I'm like, I could tell there's a lot happening!
Hannah Choi 18:55
There's like someone in my house. My husband is working from home as well. Okay. Hey, you know what we said we were gonna go into this being really authentic. Well, listeners, I am treating you to authenticity today. Welcome to my life.
Fran Havard 19:15
Well, Hannah, you know executive function coaching is a lot about how you respond to things, right?
Hannah Choi 19:20
It is. It really is. Yes, I'm just gonna get through it. And I'm gonna just love it. And I'm just so happy that I'm talking to you. You can go through this with me. So something so two things that I wanted to talk about. One is you said something earlier about comparison and I feel like that comes up a lot. We have these assumptions in our head about how we are or our children are like supposed to be and how other like other kids It's other are like our friends, kids are a certain way. And oh, like my kids are supposed to be that way. And I think that I'm, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the parents of our kiddos that are going through executive function coaching are feeling this way. And it's just so important to recognize that everyone has strengths. Everyone has challenges, your kid is not the same as as someone else's kid, you are not the same. There's going to be things about your kid that are you know, that they're better at something than someone else's kid. And I don't know, that's just something that comes up a lot. I've noticed in conversations with friends and just conversations with other coaches and parents. That comparison is it's tempting to go down that road. And it's can be a little dicey. If you do.
Fran Havard 20:56
Well, I find that I have to fight that as both a coaching coordinator and as a parent, this idea of what's right. Fix my kid, you know, this is not what coaching is about, I always find I have a definite focus on what's your authentic self. Because these kids have learning differences. And it's not so much that they have learning differences, how they engage and see the world is different. That's why the result, what you see on the other side is different. Because the kids that we work with the ADHD kids, and other learning difference, kids don't see the same world. And I have to temper the expectation right away that that's a beautiful thing. They will never see the same world that x sees it or Y sees it. They interact in a very unique way. And that is something to celebrate. And so, I had a line with parents, that is where I go, allowing parents to understand that it is okay, that your child engages in different way with the world. Congratulations, you've birthed an individual with a unique perspective on the world. Yes, Well done for cultivating that through their early childhood. Well done for keeping that special bit of them right through, you know, school, and yeah, they might not have straight A's in high school, but we'll help them find a way to be successful.
Hannah Choi 22:40
Oooh, you're giving me the chills.
Fran Havard 22:41
I mean, like, yes, it's so true.
Hannah Choi 22:48
I, one of my adult clients and I were having a similar conversation, he was recently diagnosed with ADHD, and he did a project for grad school where they interviewed educators and just people from all different aspects of education, and about how so, so many people don't fit into this, you know, the mold of, of education, as it is today of most schools. And, and then we were saying that, but it's the people who don't fit in, that are the ones that you know, can really end up making change. And it's the people that are different, that see the world in a different way. And that, you know, that that interpret the world in a different ways. They're the ones that keep things interesting and keep us on our toes. And we need more people that think that way. And then in order for them to reach their goals, yeah, they need to develop some executive functions, strategies that support the areas that, that make it maybe make it hard for them to do X, Y, and Z.
Fran Havard 23:53
Yeah, I, the other day, a little I was in my son's third grade classroom. And we were doing a word search. And like, I've always been a sort of outside the box thinker. And it, I took the word search, and I started doing it with his class. And then I turned the paper to the side, because for me, I could look at letters, you know, turn around, I can all of a sudden see a pattern that I didn't see before. And I and I, all of a sudden, everybody's sitting at my son's table, turn their paper to the side because they had never thought and I thought and I always think when I work with kids who are, you know, have learning differences. They always have their paper to the side helped me see things a little bit differently, you know?
Hannah Choi 24:32
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking with someone she was, I can't remember who it was, but she was saying, you know, like, if you walk into a special education classroom in an elementary school, you might see someone like lying on the floor and doing their work or someone you know, using some kind of manipulative or you know, sitting in some kind of unique chair or something. And that's what we need in every classroom. Like it should be just sort of accepted and standard. Some people work on the floor. Some people hold their paper sideways. Yeah. And that's, that's one thing that I love about coaching is helping people find what works for them. And I always say, like, I'm gonna make this suggestion, but I don't want you to think, oh, I have to do it this way. Like, I want you to say like, I want you to tell me when it doesn't work, I want you to tell me what you didn't like about it. I always start my question. Okay, you tried this? What did you not like about it? That's it's super valuable, really valuable information. I'm sure that you've had conversations with parents, when they say it feels like it's taking a long time. Because a common thing that we talked about with clients all the time, I'm sure you've talked about it with your clients. And I know it comes up a lot is like how long it takes to make change. I mean, there's 1000s of books on, you know, developing new habits, there's, you know, podcasts and executive function coaches and everything. And it just takes a long time. What do you how do you, how do you help parents understand that and how do you yourself manage it, when, when either one of your clients is taking a long time, or if you're taking a long time, or one of your kids.
Fran Havard 26:11
I'm a firm believer that you have to get underneath, you got to get up underneath the resistance to change. So you remember, we we learned a lot about friction when we that when we read the article I sent and you have to understand as a parent, as a coach, what's creating that friction, that resistance to change. And I think a lot about problem solving in those terms. Now, because change is slow because of this friction. And then when you look at like a kid who's, you know, 17 in pre contemplation, which is there, they don't even realize they have to change, they're so over it, they're so detached, and how to bring them to that line, that takes a long time, relationship building, and a lot of making that child feel like they can be successful. And then the more that you can reshape that perception they have of themselves, so that they can see I'm a person capable of doing good things, I am a person capable of having a conversation, then you get the wheel starts to spin. So you have less of that, you know, that friction, and you have more of that's what we're going for the snowball, where one good idea feeds another good idea. It takes it takes a lot of verbal unpacking, we have to change the narrative inside the head. And when we do that, then changes quicker. But and that friction causes that slowness then causes the rate of change to slow down. Like we use physics as we use Newton's law of motion in this company, in Beyond BookSmart to talk about, you know, force and change in the process. It's not always the carrot, I'll give you this and you'll do it. Right. That's artificial. We've learned as coaches that that doesn't work. What Works is how we change this.
Hannah Choi 28:19
Yep. And so much of that is confidence, right? The how you were saying like, like, if you are at the point where you've like, say, you've been labeled something, you know, you've been labeled, you know, disorganized or you just have, the messages that have been given to you growing up is that you are incapable of doing this thing in a way that people like, and so your confidence has been eroded. And so I imagine that a lot of the friction that we that we do experience is for is not necessarily being able to believe that we could change, right?
Fran Havard 29:03
That's exactly it. This is me Take it or leave it. That's pre-contemplation. This is who I am. I'm not capable of change. Right? Yeah, that mindset, that's what you're working with. That's what you're changing. You're you are, you know, Emily Dickinson said "Hope is the Thing With Feathers that perches in the soul", like you are giving them that hope that purchases in the soul and then grows so that they can feel that they are more than this label.
Hannah Choi 29:32
Yeah, yep. It's a it can be hard. It can be hard waiting for someone to, you know, or walking away. It
Fran Havard 29:40
can be hard because there's a lot of conflicting messages and you makes you think I need to fix everything. And that's why that's why the executive function pieces so great, because it's about the parts, right? Yeah. What are we going to fix this week? We're going to fix we're going to try to and see if we're ready to fix task initiation. We're gonna try by, by getting over this hurdle of going to the gym, or dealing with my physics teacher, or writing this English assignment, Hannah, you know, writing for me is, you know, where my energy mostly lies when it comes through executive function coaching and getting a kid over that hurdle of you write the first sentence, then that's huge. We can get the first sentence written when you know, if we can isolate those parts, then we're not taking on everything. And then those quick wins those small successes that you're feeling, I wrote a sentence. Great. You weren't or you had nothing before that. And
Hannah Choi 30:43
I opened the doc. Sometimes it's just opening the doc. Yeah, yeah. Yep. And I think that as an outsider, as an observer of someone who struggles like you said, you can you find yourself saying, like, why can't they just that without breaking it down like that so small into such small, tiny little goals can be challenging for the observer. Because it's, you know, we just don't understand. But for the person who is learning better strategies to support themselves, that's the key. And that's kind of why it takes so long right?
Fran Havard 31:26
To unravel the mess so they can see what they want to work on. Yeah. So they can realize it's not really a mess. It's just a beautiful bunch of parts looking different.
Hannah Choi 31:36
Yes, that's right. Yeah, it's all there.
Fran Havard 31:40
It's all there. You would necessarily want to see it or not how they feel that they should show it, you know?
Hannah Choi 31:50
Yeah. Do you have any questions for me?
Fran Havard 31:52
Why don't you tell us a little bit about how starting this podcast challenged your EF skills?
Hannah Choi 31:58
Oh, yeah. Well, that's a great question. As you know, I really love to write, if writer, if listeners don't know, I write quite a bit for Beyond BookSmart. Internally, mostly internally. And so I was super excited about doing this, because I knew that I was going to be able to write a lot. But that also meant I had to be extremely organized. We have a lot of working parts, we have the audio, the writing, the planning, there are so many executive functions that are tied up with planning a podcast. So I would say for me, mostly, it has been task initiation, getting myself to make sure that I do the things that I need to do, because there's a lot of things on the list. Writing everything down. Absolutely. So I don't forget. And organization, keeping it all organized. So yeah.
Fran Havard 32:54
But thinking what are you going to do next?
Hannah Choi 32:56
Yeah, right, right. And cognitive flexibility,
Fran Havard 32:59
right. Next steps is the most important executive function skill you could have.
Hannah Choi 33:03
It is yeah. So next steps is - we end every meeting with the next steps, you know, what are we all going to do next? I end every writing session. If I sit down to write I end, every single writing session with what's next. I think, Oh, I think if I were to give one tip to anyone in the world, would be to use Next Steps. What is your next step when you stop doing the thing? What is your next step saves a whole bunch of heartache when you can't remember what you're gonna do,
Fran Havard 33:33
What you're gonna do, like you get up a podcast, most people get up and Chuck their stuff, they go upstairs and drink a cup of coffee. If you sit there for 30 seconds, and take a quick note, you save all those ideas flooding your brain, it's like it's a time window, you got to grab it.
Hannah Choi 33:48
Yeah, it's so true. And a huge thing that I talk a lot about with my clients is frontloading and doing as much as you can upfront to save yourself a whole bunch of grief later on. And, and that is for me, too, is that like you were saying earlier to the whole reflection piece, like quick, like if you do our little reflection session after anything that you've just done, then you are frontloading a whole bunch of work for next time.
Fran Havard 34:15
Exactly. And it's like, it's like a flood after you're in one of these and you just got to gotta get it down. Got to capture. Yep. Well, thank you, Hannah.
Hannah Choi 34:25
Oh, thank you, Fran. I really hope that our listeners can hear it. And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode and maybe even had a little chuckle listening to our attempts to maintain focus while the house next door was attacked with a power tool. Here at Focus Forward, we aim to bring you authentic stories and give you opportunities to learn and also be entertained. So hopefully today's episode did just that. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. On our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned thanks for listening
Mental Health & ADHD/Executive Dysfunction section starts at 20:21
When we talk about Executive Function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is important for everyone and studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health. In today’s episode, I’ll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids’ mental health. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joined me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, NY.
Sherry is a child and family therapist who is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay, dyadic developmental therapy, art and play therapy, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise and interests include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, family transition, divorce, and separation support, trauma, attachment issues, and social and relational skills. Learn all about her work with Best Self Inc. here.
Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients as well as the producer for this podcast. Now, as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD and is especially interested the increased risk for mental health disorders and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist Check out some of that work on BBS's Facebook page and blog.
Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Sherry & Sean.
You can find more about Sherry and her work at https://www.bestselfinc.com/
Mental Health and Executive Function Challenge Connection
Executive Functions in Students With Depression, Anxiety, and Stress Symptoms
What Should You Treat First? ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?
Executive Functioning: How Does It Relate To Anxiety?
Academic Anxiety: How Perfectionism and Executive Dysfunction Collide
3 Ways ADHD Makes You Think About Yourself
Self-Regulation and Co-Regulation
Executive Function & Self-Regulation
What is Co-Regulation? | Best Self Family Post
Developing Kids' Executive Function, Self-Regulation Skills
How Can We Help Kids With Transitions? - Child Mind Institute
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When we talk about executive function, we also need to talk about mental health. Taking care of our mental health is really important for everyone. And studies show that there is a connection between executive function challenges, and mental health diagnoses like depression and anxiety. There are many, many ways that executive function challenges affect mental health and vice versa. And in today's episode, I'll explore just two of these: emotional regulation for kids and the impact that ADHD can have on kids' mental health.
I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with two guests to talk about these interesting topics. Sherry Fleydervish joins me from Chicago and Sean Potts joined me from Brooklyn, New York. Sherry is a child and family therapist who works with infants through adults, and also supports the parents and families of these children. She is trained in many therapeutic areas, including theraplay dyadic, developmental psychotherapy, mindfulness, sandtray, and cognitive behavioral therapy. Her areas of expertise include anxiety, depression, ADHD, parent support, and family transition, divorce and separation support, trauma, attachment issues and social skills.
And Sean is one of Beyond BookSmart's earliest coaching clients. And now as an adult, Sean has developed a passion for raising awareness around ADHD, and is especially interested in the increased risk for mental health disorders, and the societal stigma associated with ADHD. He uses that passion every day as a driving force in the work he does as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, and it's the reason why I thought he'd be a great fit for today's topic. I also need to mention that Sean is my partner in crime for this podcast, he does all the editing and all the sound, which is good, since I can't stand that kind of stuff. So without him, this podcast would not exist. Thanks, Sean.
Okay, so keep listening to hear my conversation with Sherry and Sean, and learn some great strategies to support both our own emotional regulation and that of our kids, and to hear how ADHD impacts the mental health of students, and how we can help support kiddos with ADHD. Okay, now on to the show.
So today, I would love to talk about two topics that are really, really important to me as a coach, and also to, I think everyone, the first is emotional regulation. And that's how we manage our emotions. And emotional regulation can be challenging for everybody. And it is especially challenging for kids, because they don't have a lot of experience, yet their executive functions are not completely developed yet. And they just haven't had a lot of opportunities to practice emotional regulation. So I'd love to talk about some, you know, ideas that you have shared from your perspective. And and then I would love to cover the idea of the connection between executive function and mental health. Because we see that a lot that there's a lot of challenges by people who have executive function challenges, often go hand have some also some mental health challenges along with them. So if we could cover those two topics today, that'd be fabulous.
Sherry Fleydervish 03:48
Absolutely. You know, something that I talk about, every single family session, every child session intake is just emotion regulation. You know, a lot of times I've see, I start my intakes with parents, and they come in, and they tell me what's been going on. And oftentimes I hear, you know, these behaviors are showing up and these labels and these things that kids are experiencing, and my mind immediately goes to regulation and where they got in their, in their ability to do that, and their ability to regulate and then the parents ability to help them co regulate to, which is something I talked about. But all of that comes from a deeper lower part of our brains that take so much time and years and experiences and everything to start to build. And so that's that's oftentimes regulation is oftentimes the first place that I really start with families.
Hannah Choi 04:43
And I feel like so many of us, at least in the generation that is old enough to have kids and then then the generation before us. There wasn't a lot of education about about self-regulation, emotional regulation, and especially co-regulation. I think, maybe even a lot of our listeners don't know what co-regulation is. Would you like to explain that a little bit?
Sherry Fleydervish 05:03
Yeah, absolutely. So what I often say is that we are sharing our nervous systems, especially with our children. And when they're little and they're babies, we're really doing everything for them, we're rocking them to regulate them, even when they're in our bellies, we're rocking them, we're regulating that, then we're feeding them, we're watering them, we're doing all of those things for them. And then as children get older, we start to help them use build their own ability to regulate themselves, but you know, even, we're even co-regulating with, with our high schoolers to, you know, instead of, maybe before you would pack their lunch for them, but, you know, now you're just putting things in the right spot in the, in the fridge for them instead. And so all those little pieces are helping them regulate, you know, instead of maybe holding them, you're just sitting next to them while they do their homework now, instead of really being there, but it really is just sharing your nervous system and sharing your regulation with your child. And I'm also always, you know, talking about how different energy states require a different type of regulation. So if you have a child who was really upset and sad, you can mirror that with your body, you can get lower with them, and you can talk to them at a lower level and put your hand on your on their shoulder. But if you have a child who's really angry and frustrated, "My brother just ripped apart my favorite stuffed animal!" and, you know, I, I invite parents to match that same energy with their child and get bigger and meet their effect and just tell them how frustrated it is that they this just happened. That's co-regulating, it's showing through your body through or voice through your aspect that I hear you, I see you. And then a child begins to be able to regulate themselves as we, as we kind of practice and learn and model that.
Hannah Choi 07:03
So so much of, of helping our kids is learning first, for ourselves what we need to do to help ourselves and then through that we can help our kids.
Sherry Fleydervish 07:16
That conversation invites a lot to understand our own systems, you know, I help parents understand what comes up for them as their child moves through different things that maybe, maybe transitions are really difficult. And so I invite them to wonder what does that feel like for you to when that is happening. And so the first step is regulating yourself, you can't help you can't help your child you can't help them regulate when you are in that state of dysregulation as well. So it really starts with just taking, taking a deep breath, and being you know, taking care of yourself first.
Hannah Choi 07:52
And it's so hard to do that. It's so hard to, at least I personally find myself feeling like well, that whole idea of putting your putting that mask on the oxygen mask on first, it's so hard in the moment, or just in the busyness of life, it's so hard to remember to do that. And, and that's, that's why I am always I think anybody who knows me, well, I'm always talking about self-care. And, and I think part of it is because I'm trying to remind myself like Hannah, you have to do that too. But it's so important to to take care of ourselves first.
Sherry Fleydervish 08:28
I think even just hearing that it's okay to pause and put your mask on. And model that's, that's a modeling moment. You know, mom needs a break, mom needs 10 seconds before she can figure out how to help solve this problem. That's, that's everything. And your kiddo feels like they can do that, too.
Hannah Choi 08:43
You mentioned transitions. And I know that's a really big, that's something that a lot of our clients find challenging. And I just know kids in general, and even adults can find transitions challenging. What what do you suggest for parents or ourselves? If we struggle with transitions? Do you have some kind of go to strategies that you'd like to suggest?
Sherry Fleydervish 09:08
Transitions are so so hard, and especially ones where we're moving from something that we're really enjoying and really liking and maybe can be regulating for us too, for example, you know, if your kid's playing video games that is actually really regulating and then they're, we're asking them to move to homework or dinnertime or whatever it might be - bedtime, that isn't so regulating for them. And so, just being mindful of that piece, too, when we're supporting our kids through a transition, it's just how you're approaching it and your own. You know, I talked about expectations a lot - the expectations that you don't even realize you have as you're leading up to a transition, what you want it to be like, even if you're expecting it to be abrupt because maybe it has been in the past and then tying in this topic of Co-regulation, how can you use yourself to help your kid get from A to B? Does, you know if the video game is super regulating, can you come in and say, "Okay, you have five minutes left. And then as soon as you turn off, we're going to pass the ball outside. Or as soon as you turn off, we're going to go, you can pick up your favorite game, and we're going to play it for five minutes before we move to dinner", or get out the house or whatever it is. You are offering yourself up to play into be almost like the little train to get from regulation to task that I don't really like so much. But just use yourself as a tool to do that. And that's in the moment. And then before it's trying to set up for structure and as much as as much as you can you have a plan for how often or how long you're going to be playing each game or doing each activity or whatever it might be, so that your child feels as as prepared as they possibly can for the next for the next things.
Hannah Choi 11:08
Transitions are so hard. I see just parents struggling with them on the playground after school. When the kids are they've come out of school and they're going on to the playground to play and then it's time to go. And I often hear parents say like, "Oh, I don't want to tell them it's time to go because then I know what I'm going to have to deal with". So what could a parent do in a situation like that?
Sherry Fleydervish 11:34
Oh my gosh, notice that notice that dread? Notice that worry? You know Where's where's this gonna go today? Are we gonna get to the car, are we gonna have a dragging, screaming kid to the car. Just be mindful of that. First off, take a deep breath before you're going. And then how? How can you enter that same playful state that they're in right out there on the playground? They're playing. They're having so much fun. And then they hear time to go right now? What if it was, "Hey, this seems like such a fun game of tag. Can you go and tag whoever it is that's next. And then we're going to head out". It's - you enter, join in the play join in even if it's for a minute, I bet that that minute ends up being more worth it than the potential 10 minutes or the potential screaming, you know, just join in notice what they're playing and then kind of come out together to the car.
Hannah Choi 12:40
That's so smart. Seems like co-regulation is I mean, it probably doesn't work every time I imagine. But if it sounds like it's a great strategy to practice a lot.
Sherry Fleydervish 12:51
It might not, you might get, "I don't want to I don't want to go. This is too much fun. I don't want to leave". You can still co-regulate, right? You could say "Yes, I know you're having so much fun. And you don't want to go to piano. You think piano sucks. And this is so much more fun". That's still you're still entering and you're still like meeting them for that really frustration. But we do have to go so like I'm, I want to help you I want to problem solve right now how to make this easier.
Hannah Choi 13:19
So sure, that read that makes me think of this idea that we should just stay calm, you know, and so that kind of makes me think maybe we shouldn't just stay calm. Maybe we like you said we need to meet them where they are. And it feels a little strange for me to think Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, to get angry with them. But, but then it really shows them that we understand where they are.
Sherry Fleydervish 13:43
I hear this so often, it's um, I tried to stay so calm, I stay so calm, I have, you know, me as calm as I can with my voice and all of these pieces. And that's incredible if you can, if you can be there. But that idea of mirroring your child's emotion, emotional state, it's okay to not be cool as a cucumber, you know, because if you hear a child to saying, you know, I'm just I'm so so sad. I'm so bummed out or I'm so angry and I'm so frustrated. Kind of like what we said earlier, it's, it's okay to meet them with that with that same emotion it shows mom and dad or whoever feels can feel that way too. So
Hannah Choi 14:30
I remember my mom when I first started working with kids as a teenager, my mom gave me some advice. And she said, when a kid is upset or just won't stop talking to you just say back to them what they have said to you, just repeat back to them what they've just said to you. And and it's and they just sometimes just want to be heard. So this idea of it's almost like this idea of co-regulation like they you are acknowledging their feelings. You're not You're telling them through your behavior that these feelings are okay. Is that would you say that's an accurate description?
Sherry Fleydervish 15:07
I love that I love that advice so much because it just shows a child it shows your child that it's it is okay to have all of these feelings. And later on, you know, addressing the behaviors and the way that you express them. That's that's a different story. But you you're modeling that it's okay to have have all of those different emotions, and they're welcome here, too.
Hannah Choi 15:28
Yeah great, thanks, Mom!! One time I was in a store and there was this little boy and he was probably three or four. And he kept saying he was with his grandparents and he kept saying over and over and over again. Like, I want Mommy, I want Mommy and they were they were yah. Yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, you'll see her later. Mommy's busy or whatever, and I want mommy he kept saying, I went up to him, and I said, you want your mommy? He said, Yeah. And then he stopped yelling about it. Like, see, you just need to say back to him, He just wants someone to acknowledge that.
Sherry Fleydervish 16:11
Sometimes we just we miss that piece. And, and, and it's almost out of the moment, it seems so simple or from, from that, from the observer, you saw that, like, that kid just wants his mom, you just want your mom so bad. You're so you just miss her. You know, and it stepped him right? Back into right back into it like, well, this adult just heard me okay.
Hannah Choi 16:35
But I guess it shows that when you are the parent or the caregiver in the moment, it's hard to, to step out and say, and like look at it, like an observer. Look at it like that crazy lady who just talked to my grandkid.
Sherry Fleydervish 16:52
It's a lot easier not in the moment to do that. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 16:55
So do you have any strategies for when you are in the moment, and it's hard, and you're having trouble getting out of it as as, as an adult.
17:03
The first step, it's just it's noticing, and maybe taking a step back, and maybe even getting lower getting on your child's level. And just even if, if it just means, you know, just looking at them in the eye and saying, you're just, you know, you're so worried about, you know, the test that you have tomorrow at school, if your kid just won't stop talking about I have to study I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to prepare this way. And my my advice is, is not so much to focus on the behavior, but to focus on the emotion underneath of what your child is saying. And just get curious with them, they might not be able to tell you how they feel. But they're communicating through even that little boy in the grocery store was probably feeling worried or missing, or just wanted, wanted his mom. And that's an opportunity for us to say and wonder, I wonder if you're feeling worried right now you don't know where Mommy is. Or I wonder if you're just nervous for your test tomorrow, we can pull the emotion out of the over and over and over talk that we hear. Notice maybe what it's bringing up for you, that might be the same feeling that your kids feeling, and isn't able to communicate it.
Hannah Choi 18:22
Being able to label your emotions is so important. And I feel like I and I think that is a skill that goes along with emotion with executive function. And just sort of that emotional awareness. And that's a big part of emotional regulation is labeling your emotions? Do you have any strategies for all ages for little kids up to adults for helping to figure out what you're feeling or maybe helping someone else to figure out what they're feeling? Because I imagine a lot of our coaches might need to help their clients figure out what they're feeling and maybe the client doesn't know what they're feeling, and they're hoping to figure that out.
Sherry Fleydervish 19:04
I always say as the whether you are the that whatever adult you are that's in that child's life, or that teenagers like it's, it's okay to guess and it's okay to guess wrong. You know, if you're noticing that a child is something just changed, you can just say, Oh, I just noticed something changed now. What happened for you, but what's going on right now, and it might not come out as a feeling. It might be I'm thinking this or you can you can still use that to be curious about the moment and if they can't connect to what they're what they're feeling, then maybe you can help them connect with what's going on in their body and I invite all ages, clients of all ages to do that. And if they can't express to me what they're feeling then I asked them to just draw it you know, can you pick a color can you draw what that what that feeling feels like in your body? Can you identify it somewhere inside write up your body right now. Or where that change just happened. It doesn't have to be through communication through through verbally, we can find other outlets. And maybe it's just a quick journal for a teenager or for us to just, I don't really know what's going on. But I'm just going to write for a minute and see what kind of comes out.
Hannah Choi 20:20
So something that that comes up a lot for, for us as coaches and I think just us as humans, and is what I talked about in our first episode is this idea of failure. And I the emotions that go along with that, and how I think with for people with executive function challenges, we, you know, people can often feel like failures, and there's a lot of emotions there and anxiety that might come up. And do you do have any, what's your insight on that, like the connection between between executive function and feelings, emotions,
Sherry Fleydervish 21:05
To follow up on the conversation about failure that you bring up is just how I loved the first episode that you released when we were talking about failure, because it is an it is a learning opportunity. But in the moment, it sure doesn't feel that way. It was really, really, really bad. And we have our own self beliefs that show up and start spiraling. And then we have all the messages that we've heard, you know, and if you're a kid or teenager struggling with some executive functions as well, then at school, you're probably oftentimes getting redirected and reminded and something wrong. And it's really hard not to internalize all of that, and end up with these negative thoughts about ourselves kind of swirling.
Hannah Choi 21:56
Well, I was just going to ask Sean, if he was comfortable sharing your own experience growing up, I know that you can relate personally to some of what Sherry was just saying, you want to share any of your experience.
Sean Potts 22:09
Yeah, I, I grew up most of my life, not really knowing I had had ADHD, it was one of those things where I would never really love going to school, it was very hard for me to sit still, it was very hard for me to like, have that sort of rigid, structured time. And that, you know, there was definitely a lot of friction that happens when I was younger around that, you know, and my parents noticed it at a fairly young age. And that led to me getting my first ADHD diagnosis tests when I was probably in fourth grade. And for whatever reason, I didn't get diagnosed at that time. So the problems continued to get worse. And until about halfway through middle school, when it was just sort of kind of hard to ignore the level of executive dysfunction that I was experiencing. I mean, I was a C/D student and I, you know, could never sit still, I was constantly getting kicked out of the classroom for whatever annoyance my 12 year old self was contributing to the classroom and distracting from learning. So I eventually at that age, was able to get diagnosed with ADHD. And that was sort of the beginning of my journey to treating it. I mean, of course, getting that diagnosis is huge. So from there, very soon after, you know, we started doing trials with medication. And also, I mean, that was a big component. But the biggest for me, it was definitely the executive function coaching. I got, I started working with a coach when I was at this point about 13, 14. You know, it took a little while, probably a year after my diagnosis before I really got moving forward with coaching. And for me, the transformation that happened was just like, was unbelievable. You know, within six months, I would say I was coaching, I was almost a completely different student I was, I was getting A's, which was the first time in my life and you know, I, there was no C's to be found on my report card. But more importantly, I rebuilt this confidence that I felt like I had lost from my years of going to school with untreated ADHD and just feeling like I was so different. That was huge. All of a sudden, I was like, teachers were complimenting me and I was, you know, like, the, my parents didn't have to nag me about homework. And I was feeling really confident in my abilities. And it was a big revelation. I think that confidence was sort of the the boost I needed moving forward. And now looking back, it's been what? Over 10 years since I had started coaching at this point. I'm 25 and the you know, I still am so grateful for the experience I had then, but I also recognize a lot of the problems that I had are not isolated incidents that I only experienced. I mean people all over the world have on untreated ADHD and the consequences of that can be really substantial, both on their mental health, their sense of self and their, you know, future prospects. So I'm have become very passionate about that. It's why I also love my job now working as Beyond BookSmart's Marketing Specialist, where I'm able to educate and spread awareness and advocate for a lot of the stuff that I struggled with and so many other people struggle with. So it's really cool to be here and talking to both of you about this, it's really, it's kind of an amazing, full circle to be here and be able to talk about it in the way that I am.
Sherry Fleydervish 25:35
Oh, that's, it's a really important piece to bring up. And I appreciate you sharing a little bit about that diagnosis coming a little bit later in adolescence too and what that must be like to experience or go through all of those years of school and not really understand what's different about how your brain works, and what your brain needs, until later on. And when we tie in mental health. And what we know about regulation, as well, is that we can't really access those thinking decision-making parts of our brains when we're not emotionally regulated. And so mental health, and if we're struggling with, even if it's stress, or anxiety, or depression, or whatever it might be our whole, we aren't able to plan and organize and our memories impacted. All those pieces that we need to be successful are, it just makes it harder to do that to get there.
Hannah Choi 26:36
And I imagine if you have grown up with this continuous message that you're hearing over and over and over again, that you're a failure, I mean, that maybe that's not the words they're using. But that's might be the message you're receiving. And imagine that that causes an amazing amount of stress on the brain, and then makes it even more challenging to access the executive function skills that that are already challenging.
Sherry Fleydervish 26:59
Absolutely. Yeah. You. It's, you know, those beliefs and your own perception of your own abilities, and can lead to some of those thoughts. And then that I can imagine how then having those feelings, and maybe leading to that either leading to avoidance or anxiety and not wanting to go to school or not wanting to go certain places where maybe those feelings have come up in the past and all of those things, kind of becoming comorbid and leading to each other.
Sean Potts 27:33
Yeah, absolutely. That's totally true. And I think, from my own experience, and from the research that's been done, I think there was something that said that by the time someone with ADHD turns 10, they've heard, I think, 10,000 more corrective messages than their neurotypical peers, which is, I find very sad, because that has a big ripple effect that impacts someone with ADHD's perception of themselves, first and foremost, but also of their capacity to do things and their confidence. And that, again, it has a ripple effect later in life that really impacts your mental health, your sense of self, your, again, your confidence. And I find that to be one of the saddest things about untreated ADHD is the fact that there's this coexisting mental health risk that people with ADHD also have. This leads me to my first real question, which is for you, Sherry. And it's that I'm very interested from the work that you've done, how you've seen some of the impact that that type of corrective messaging or other challenges that people with ADHD have, how that's manifested into mental health challenges, and the clients that you work with, would love to hear anything you have to say on that subject?
Sherry Fleydervish 28:53
I'm just thinking about the first thing that comes to mind is this environment, the environment of school, and what is expected of students, and how if you're not fitting in, maybe because of your ADHD diagnosis, executive functioning challenges, you're not fitting in with what is expected. And where I start, oftentimes, I do collaborate with schools, and I'll kind of talk about how I do that with my clients. But it's first starting with, with my clients and with their families, and recognizing that maybe these pieces of the environment actually aren't working with me or for my brain or for how I needed and so not necessarily adapting yourself in that moment, but I'm more wondering how can the teachers support the state that you have, and how can we adjust this expectation to fit in with what you what you need and talking with teachers and maybe even providing some education to about how oftentimes these students are experiencing redirections? And how can we You help them without constantly correcting correcting their behaviors. Instead, working with teachers has been really, really validating for for all the families and the clients that I work with. Because just knowing just a student going into school knowing that my teacher gets it, you know, she knows that I'm not trying to misbehave, or trying to be a bad kid, or whatever it is that had been coming up in the past is is not the case and knows that, you know, I'm trying to try and make the best that I can.
Hannah Choi 30:36
Have you noticed an increase in opportunities to work with teachers? Like are, is there more of a, are educators becoming more aware of kind of like a holistic approach to teaching?
Sherry Fleydervish 30:52
Absolutely, I, I really, really appreciate all of the teachers that I that I'm able to collaborate with, and that they're able to take the time to speak with me for, you know, 15, 20 minutes about one of their 30 students, and there is so much more social emotional learning going on in the classroom these days, it's truly incredible. And then that insight is so helpful for therapy, I use everything that the teachers are giving me all those observations, and bringing them into the room. And then life on on the flip side, as well, I feel that teachers are craving this piece and needing it and wanting to know what works best for each student. And they're so willing to implement it, because that's all they want is the success of their students. And then unfortunately, a lot of times, it's you know, what, if you're not supporting my kid, you're not doing what they need. And teachers are self-internalizing, to, like, I can't connect with this kid. And this is so hard, where, you know, I try so hard to just let teachers know you're doing the best that you can. And it's not, you know, some kids have different needs, and how, how open they are to having those vulnerable conversations, something I'm really grateful for.
Hannah Choi 32:03
And I imagine that there's also it also varies from school, depending on the, you know, the the leadership, and how aware of the leadership is of, of the importance of social emotional regulation, and just how important that piece is, I was just talking recently with our, my, my children's elementary school principal. And, and she was saying that, that for her, that's number one that's, that comes first. And the happiness of her teachers, you know, is just so important, and that she sees mental health as the most important thing first for everybody. I love. I just loved hearing that. And, and so that's great that you're seeing a lot of partnership between schools and mental health providers.
Sean Potts 32:48
Yeah, that's a great point, Hannah. And Sherry, I'm just curious, I just have a quick question for you, too. Do you find in the work that you do, that teachers have become more aware or perceptive to the, to these issues around ADHD and executive function than they were, let's say 10 years ago, because from my experience growing up, it really felt like, almost no fault of their own, teachers just didn't really know about these challenges, they didn't really know how to handle them. And because of that, oftentimes, you know, that would manifest into frustration or other areas like that. And I'm just, I'm just curious, if you think that's changed at all, in the last 10 years, in the work that you've been doing,
Sherry Fleydervish 33:27
I think, you know, to Hannah's point, it definitely depends on the administration, the higher-ups and what that, you know, the different environments and of each school as well. But overall, I definitely see teachers were invested on that mental health, emotional piece, I think, because there's so much more education out there on it, the stigma is decreasing, and so many more people are open to therapy, and there isn't this huge stigma on it, for lack of a better word, that it seeps into education, and it seeps into the teachers as well, you know, they are recognizing that they have their own things going on too, then it's so much easier to see and to connect with students who are also experiencing that. And so, I think overall, just it's, it's a lot easier to have those conversations and teachers are really willing to go there.
Hannah Choi 34:27
And breaking down that stigma around mental health and therapists and you know, taking care of our mental health is so important. And and why continuing to have these conversations and normalizing the idea of having a therapist normalizing the idea of, yes, everyone has executive function challenges like I am the first one to admit Yeah, I'm a coach and I love helping people and I also really struggle with in certain areas of executive function, and you and just just having these conversations and showing people You can talk about it, and it's okay. And talking about it is going to help, it will help, it'll help someone. Oh, that's great to hear that that conversation is happening more.
Sherry Fleydervish 35:13
And sometimes even just talking to teachers on that note of acknowledging your own challenges, whatever, whatever it might be, you know, that is such a great way to connect with your kid, you know, or your student, whoever it might be that, you know, I have a really hard time organizing my stuff to, here's something that has helped me or let's problem solve together, let's, let's work through this, let's figure out how to do it. Just that little piece, that little nugget, I'll have kids come in, and just tell me that they had this great talk with their teacher, and the teacher might not have even noticed that it was just this little piece little thing that they connected on, you know, I felt this way before. That's everything can be everything.
Hannah Choi 35:50
I see that a lot in my clients, whenever I you know, if I share something that I've really struggled with, I see, like visible relief on their face, like, wow, this person who's supposedly, you know, obviously, she knows something about executive function. She has struggled with it, too. And it's, yeah, it's so important to share that. Although it can be scary to be open about your own struggles, your own challenges. But I think it gives everyone else permission to think, oh, I actually feel that way too sometimes. And that's okay.
Sherry Fleydervish 36:24
I've worked through that over the years as a therapist, and how to self-disclose and learning how to disclose in a way that's really validating, and opening up this place of, of comfort. And it sounds like you're working on that same thing, too. And just showing, no, I have, I have these struggles, too. And I have these feelings. And these eyes open up so wide, some of these kids like, well, you know, adults that I model also experience struggles.
Hannah Choi 36:56
And it's okay. Something that reminds me of the idea, I can't remember what it's called, you probably know, the, the idea where you can feel two different two opposing feelings about the same thing at the same time. So the idea of replacing but with and then so that reminded me of Sean, your your experience growing up? And how, if you had, maybe you've received the message, like, you know, you, you are, you need to work on your organization or whatever, and you're, you're a great student, or you're a good, you know, you might have heard like, yeah, you're smart, but you, you know, need to work on this. And it kind of negates everything that was said first. So do you is that a strategy that you have shared with people? Or is that something that's coming up for you lately?
Sherry Fleydervish 37:56
I think that when you're when you're offering that opportunity of learning, right, that's usually what what we're doing, at the end of the day, when you're offering criticism, or you're offering your observation or whatever it might be, it's an opportunity for that other person to, to learn or in your mind get better at whatever that challenge is. And so we have to sandwich those pieces with, obviously, things that will make them feel proud of themselves and feel accomplished. And then when you're adding in these pieces of but you can do this next time or but whatever it might be, you know, here's the place, sometimes I'll say it like this, you know, your brain works really, really good at your, you have a great memory, you're very creative. And you have an ability to see all these little details that everybody else may not be able to see, but your brain at, or I don't even want to say but your brain has a little bit of a harder time with shifting attention from this to this or from whatever activity we're doing before to this one. And so maybe connecting with, with that actual piece that they're struggling with. And saying, you know, I'm here with you, I want to help. I want to help you strengthen this part of your brain, I want to help this not be so hard for you. And connecting with you know how hard it is for them feeling that comes up for them. And then working together to be kind of kind of like a consultant or that you know, how can we problem solve together?
Hannah Choi 39:36
And that makes me think of the idea of meeting someone where they are and and not asking more of them that they are then they're ready for and figuring out what their strengths are and how they can use those strengths. Sean, do you remember do you think have you ever thought about that concept of like, of, of you can be this One of the thing and the and the kind of opposite at the same time. And do you think that any of the messaging that you received growing up as a kid with ADHD, do you think if you had been told this message of you have challenges, and you're like, you're this and you're that instead of you're this, but you're that, do you think that would have made a difference for you?
Sean Potts 40:21
Oh, yeah, I think that would have made a huge difference. Particularly around when I was maybe nine years old, I remember I just had this one teacher that just never really understood or got me beyond the surface level challenges that she saw. And my mom often recalls this one parent teacher conference, or the typical one that would happen near the end of the year, where she, you know, once the conference with my dad, and you know, for the next 20, 30 minutes, my teacher just kept listening, all these negative things I was doing wrong. And eventually she just snapped and was like, "Do you have anything positive to say about my son?" And I think that's the best example of what it was really like for me being in the classroom every day with the teacher who saw me in that way. And I remember the next year, I had just such a an upgrade, where I had a teacher who immediately got me and saw some things that I didn't even see in myself, particularly around writing and creativity and some things that I've since learned that I really like. And the first time the parents come into the classroom, she mentioned how the first thing she said to my mom, when she came up to her was your son, so creative. He's such a great writer, and my mom tells me that she just started crying, because from her perspective, she had been hearing these negative things. And that was in stark contrast to what she knew about me. But at a deeper level, it was a stark contrast to it, I felt like I knew about myself, but I had really impacted me hearing all the things I had heard that year before from that one teacher, and some of the ways that she approached my challenges. So, you know, I really think it would have been a huge help to have had that earlier. And I think, you know, overcoming that was a huge part of my journey with my ADHD and the executive dysfunction I was experiencing. So no, absolutely, I think that would have made a huge difference. But I also do recognize that I was lucky to have had a teacher like that. And I also recognize that there are a lot of students who don't. And that's really, really sad and unfortunate, because I think anyone growing up with those types of challenges, needs to needs to meet somebody who can see you as an individual beyond just those sorts of those surface level challenges. So that you can realize that they're really just that surface level challenges. They're not some inherent character flaws that makes you you know, irrevocably messed up are different. They're a challenge that you have a whole lifetime to be able to overcome. But within that, you also have your strengths. And if you can have a teacher or somebody in your life who can help you realize that as someone who's young with ADHD, I think that is one of the most important ingredients for future success. And I again, I feel very lucky to have had that both in that teacher but also in my coach.
Hannah Choi 43:07
Yeah, and then what you said about confidence, I mean, that keeps coming up in every conversation that I have had, I feel like about everything recently, but especially these conversations for the podcast is it all seems to come back to confidence. And I imagine share, you see that a lot in both your clients and the parents of your clients. And that when you learn the skills, then you become more confident, which then helps in I imagine more ways than we will ever know for people.
Sherry Fleydervish 43:39
That is something that comes up in almost every intake, "I just I want my kid to feel more confident". And that shows up in every aspect, then up up their identity. And when I bring kids into my office, that is one of the first things that I work on is Where do you feel your best? Because these are not, kind of to Sean's point, these are not conversations or things that kids just inherently think about, you know, where my where am I? Where do I feel the best? Where do I feel strong? Where do I feel empowered, and confident? I bet you every kid you speak to will actually have an example of it. But then and offering your own piece if they don't you know why see how how focused you are whenever you're drawing in session. Or seems like you're three steps ahead when we're playing Connect 4 for every single week. Those are these little pieces where you're starting to notice other their notice there's their confidence when they might not even be seeing it themselves. And then using that to work towards some of the challenges and the pieces the things that they want to see different in their own lives. Even five year olds can tell me "I want to feel less of this feeling and more of this feeling". Like, Okay, great. Well, using the things that I know where you feel competent, we're going to, we're going to build on those pieces that feelings you don't want to have any more the challenges you're having at school. You're not just this one thing.
Hannah Choi 45:17
That reminds me of a conversation I had with my family recently, we went around the room, and we challenged each other to come up with five things that we were really good at, we had to say it about ourselves. It was so hard. It was such a hard thing to do. And I think you're right, we don't naturally think that way. And, and so how great to start off, you know, a conversation with someone that way i when I've meet for when I first meet a new client, I always ask them, so what are you good at? And it's it's hard to think that way. But it's important. Yeah. Great to have any. Sean, do you have any other questions for sherry?
Sean Potts 45:59
Yeah, so for the clients that you work with that have, let's say, anxiety and depression, but also have ADHD where these two, these two, or maybe even three things are existing simultaneously? How do you assess where to start treatment? Do you start with the ADHD? Do you start with the depression, anxiety, what's the focal point for treatment, and why?
Sherry Fleydervish 46:23
This happens often, right? Where a client is experiencing symptoms of different diagnoses, and maybe if it has comorbid diagnoses already coming into, into my session. And I start by just really, really, really, for a moment, putting aside that diagnosis, and noticing what is what is showing up the most, and what is the most symptomatic, and what is getting in the way most for this client. You know, if they have dual diagnosis, then maybe we need to first focus on that anxiety. And that is the most important and to figure out how to calm your mind calm, your body be a little bit more regulated. So then you can tackle some of those some of those pieces and those thoughts. And then we can dive into the other diagnoses or the other symptoms, you know, that the diagnosis is important and really validating for so many people. And for me, too, and it helps with treatment, but just kind of looking at a client and a person as a whole, and parsing out what is what is really the most important thing to support in the beginning. And everything else will eventually fall into place.
Hannah Choi 47:36
I find that to with coaching, you know, we always start off like, what's the thing that's the hardest for you right now? Like, what's the thing that's causing the most stress for you, and the thing that, that that's keeping you up at night, and just starting there, and you're right, I do find that the other things kind of end up naturally just getting involved and and leading into them. And then and then I do notice also that some of the challenges that came up, once we address those challenges, they actually were associated with some of the other stuff too. So then it makes the other stuff that used to be super challenging, also a little bit less challenging, just by working on this one other thing.
Sherry Fleydervish 48:19
I wonder if it's that they're building on their strengths, or they're starting to feel more competent in one area, and it kind of just even without even that conversation happening. It's just starting to morph into those other places. Other things.
Hannah Choi 48:32
It's pretty magical to see. So I imagine you have that experience as well. Yeah, thank you so much, Sherry. It's just so interesting to listen to you talk and and you have such a calm manner about yourself. I bet your clients just love talking with you.
Sherry Fleydervish 48:51
I loved this conversation, I feel like we just I wish it happened more. I wish these conversations were out there more just kind of normalizing therapy and parenting support. You know, it's just, you need the space, you know, and it's not just a drop-off service. I won't let that happen. I don't let that happen in my office. I make sure parents know from the beginning. I don't care if your, you know, your kiddos coming in here, five or 17. You know, I want to work together so that what's going on in my sessions is is coming and translating at home, too.
Hannah Choi 49:32
When when my kids were little I lived on Cape Cod and I have to give a shout out to Cindy Horgan at the Cape Cod Children's Place. It's a an organization that provides support for young families on the outer and lower cape. And my kids went or my Yeah, my kids went to preschool there and she approaches it like that when you. Yes, your kids go to school there, but she supports the parents so much and you could just make an appointment to go talk with her about any parenting challenges that you're having, and she just wrapped you right up in her, you know, figurative arms and just kept you, you know, gate gave you great strategies and and, and she was so great she was so open about her own challenges and just normalized everything so much. And just what you were saying right there just reminds me so much of that experience and I wish that every, every child, and every parent would have an opportunity to work with someone like Cindy Horgan. So. So thanks, Sherry, could you share with our listeners, where we where they can find you if they're interested in asking you more questions or learning more about you?
Sherry Fleydervish 50:42
Absolutely. So you can find my profile on bestselfinc.com. And you can also find a whole lot of other resources for children, teens, parents, families of logs, and resources are all on our website. You can even subscribe to our family newsletter. And we often will send blogs through that updates, anything that we've written.
Hannah Choi 51:08
I'll be sure to include all of that information in our show notes, too. So if you're listening, check out the show notes. And you can find it there too. Thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. I just I loved every second of this conversation. I feel like I could have talked for a whole nother hour, but maybe maybe another day.
Sean Potts 51:28
Absolutely. Thank you both. This has been such a pleasure to join this conversation.
Sherry Fleydervish 51:33
Thank you so much. It's been really wonderful to be here.
Hannah Choi 51:38
And that's our show for today. Thank you for joining me and taking time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode. As Sherry said, it's so important to have these conversations about mental health, executive function challenges and parenting support. The more we talk about these so called stigmas, the more we normalize them, and by normalizing them more and more people will be able to access the support they need without negative reactions from the people around them. And here at Focus Forward, we will continue to have these important and sometimes difficult conversations in the hopes that we help someone, somewhere. If you are interested in normalizing these topics, please check out the show notes for some tips on how you can help. Oh, and hey, you can start off by sharing our podcast with your friends. If you haven't yet, subscribe to this podcast app beyond booksmart.com/podcast. You'll get an email about every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening
Supporting kids with Executive Function challenges is hard enough, but what happens when they're feeling resistance towards changing their habits? How can parents and key support systems work together to inspire real change - even in those who may not see the value in it just yet? On this week's episode, I sat down with one of my favorite people, Kim - the mom of one of my long-time coaching clients, Skyla. As you’ll hear in today’s episode, our first session together four years ago was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love, consistency, support, and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla’s coach and I can’t quite believe that I finally have the opportunity. So listen in to hear her mom Kim and I tell our story of Skyla’s success. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey and that you leave feeling inspired in your own Executive Function journey.
Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Kim about her and her daughter’s journey.
Test Prep and Managing Test Anxiety
Understanding Test Anxiety
How to Overcome Test Anxiety
Student Stress: Untangling the Anxiety and Executive Function Connection
Organization Resources
Clutterbug - Find out what kind of organization strategies work best for you
Understanding why kids struggle with organization
Emotional Regulation
Self-Reg with Stuart Shanker
Permission to Feel by Marc Brackett, Ph.D.
Whole-Brain Child by Daniel J. Siegel, M.D. and Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D.
Foster Care and Adoption
Adopt US Kids
Childwelfare League of America
Internatonal Adoption
Resources for Foster Families
National Foster Parent Association Resources
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:03
Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
So four years ago, I was paired with a new client, and her name was Skyla. And at the time, she was a fourth-grader who was in the process of being adopted, and she was being adopted with her younger sister by a woman called Kim. And the first day we met, it was a sunny day in March of 2018. And we met up at a local public library for our first coaching session. This was BC, you know, before COVID, before we switched to entirely online coaching. Anyway, I knew from the start that this was going to be a unique experience for me as a coach. As you'll hear in today's episode, that first day was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love and consistency and support and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla's coach, and I can't quite believe that I finally have the opportunity to do this. So keep listening to hear her mom cam and I tell our story of Skyla's success, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey. Hi, Kim, this is so great having you here today? Could you start off by introducing yourself and sharing your family's journey to executive function coaching? And before you start, I just want to say thank you again for talking with me today.
Kim 01:51
No problem, happy, happy to do it for you, Hannah. Yes, so I mean, I my journeys started, geez, it was probably 2016 in in, you know, looking to adopt children and going through the process of becoming a foster parent, and then identifying two girls, young girls that were in need of a permanent home. And so, you know, Desi and Skyla, came into my life and began living with me in 2017, February of 2017. And, you know, certainly in foster care for reason, their background was was quite a difficult one and a challenging one. And they had a lot to sort of work through and had missed, you know, a lot of, you know, critical academic aspects of of learning, because of their biological home and the circumstances, they're so sort of coming in and putting them into a parochial school with a hope that, you know, some structure would would help them be able to, you know, advance in their studies and catch up quite a bit. But, you know, became clear that additional supports are going to be needed. And so I think I found Beyond BookSmart on just doing a Google search, I feel like that's the way I came across it. And it turned out to be great. Uh, you know, I was hooked up with you, Hannah, and, you know, I think starting in March of 2018. And from that point forward, you've been working with Skyla, and, you know, amazing progress. I mean, really, just, like I said, from, you know, night, today day to night, it has, it has been really a, a real metamorphosis, so to speak. And in terms of her approach her thinking, her emotional regulation, her, you know, confidence is incredible as to where it started. So it's been, it's just been so helpful. And, you know, I think that it's, it's not just about the work and, you know, helping her with the work she needs to do. It really is more of the emotional and organizational skills that I think she she just had no idea how to do those things. And so, this was a huge, huge step in the right direction for her.
Hannah Choi 04:47
So I know it's been four years. But do you remember how you felt?
Kim 04:53
Yes, I do. I remember being just frustrated and had no idea how to handle some of the issues that were coming up. You know, there was significant meltdowns, you know, at homework time that carried on for hours hours of, of her just crying, "I don't know what to do. I'm stupid. I don't know how to do this". And, you know, was it a, an attempt to avoid actually doing the work? Or did she really feel that she didn't know how to do it? And I think, you know, looking back, it was a combination of the two. But yeah, it was really frustrating, like, how do you help her when, you know, she's so clearly emotional, and upset and unable to even like, get to a starting point, and then try to go through it. So it was, I was, I was very frustrated. And, you know, she was very frustrated too. So was really looking for some help, just how do we, how do we make this better? How do we help her focus more and, you know, understand that school is something you're going to have to do, you're not going to get out of it. But, you know, let's just try to try to take this emotion out of it. And try to get the work done.
Hannah Choi 06:33
I, I remember, really vividly once working with her in the beginning when she was still in fourth grade, and she was doing something, something with math and and it was really hard for her. And I think, like I remember the session ended, she was really upset. And, and then a few weeks ago, I was talking with her about math, and she was doing an online math thing that in the past has really challenged her emotional regulations. And I and I asked her, "What do you do now when you are working on that math and it's really hard." And she said, "Well, I just notice that if I'm starting to get upset and frustrated, I walk away from it, I just take a break. And I go back to it later". And I was just I told you I was gonna cry. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes to think about how, what a gift that is for her to have figured that out after so long that now when she's in a frustrating, frustrating situation, she knows how to manage her emotions. And yeah, and like how that is applicable to so many things. It doesn't just have to be math.
Kim 07:54
No, everything, everything. Yeah, yeah, no, I made it. And I know you really hammered that home with her like throughout many of your, your sessions with her and, and that, you know, that ability to just stop pause, whether it's breathe, walk away, just take take a mental break from this for a minute, rather than continue to get more and more frustrated and overwhelmed by what's in front of you. And you know, she definitely has picked that up and has taken it and it's just, it's great to see. I mean, like you said, it's a great life skill. I think probably I could do that at work and that might help me, too.
Hannah Choi 08:39
We can all we can all learn from Skyla. Yeah. Every every time I think about her, your I should say your like yours and hers, journey through this through coaching and just through and not even just coaching but just through the process of adopting them and having them you guys become a family and, and you know, watching both girls really change and blossom and grow and is the idea of just trust, like trust, just like trusting the process trusting that people that you have welcomed into your life as a support system. And, and I just think that this is like her your story is such a great example of of that. Because in even my own experience as her coach, I had to keep telling myself like, trust that trust that what you are, the messages that you are giving to her. They're getting through. And it just it was it was hard sometimes to trust that. Yeah, it was really hard. And it took a really long time. Like I've been trying to get her to breathe, to use breathing as an emotional regulation tool for four years. And she used it in when she took her test. And she said it you know and and she said that was the Is your side system ever taken? And I'm like, I know, there's a lot of factors involved there. And I know that breathing is one of them. And, and so trusting that process like, Have you felt that? through it? Yeah.
Kim 10:13
I mean, you know, I feel like I was in such dire straits when she initially started that I felt like I had no choice. You know, clearly as time has gone on, and I've seen her, you know, make positive, you know, move in a positive direction. It's, it's been, okay, like, you know, we hung in here, she's hung in here, she's starting to take what Hannah's telling her and apply it, and it's, it's just creating much more positive outcome for her and, you know, for for us for everyone. So, yeah, no, I mean, it's, trust is not my strong suit.
Hannah Choi 11:02
It's hard. It's hard to do.
Kim 11:04
Yeah. But, you know, I think that, you know, I, you and I had talked about the plan and what you were gonna focus on with her, and they were all the right things that she needed, as she's gone through the process. So it just made it easy to trust it. And then, you know, seeing it work, but it took a lot of time. I mean, I give you a lot of credit. I mean, this is a kid that, you know, did not come from traditional circumstances. And, you know, it just made everything far more challenging. And but she's, I mean, really just an amazing, in an amazing place right now. I mean, she is, you know, putting in extra effort, rather than the bare minimum. She is, you know, going above and beyond. She comes home, she does her homework before she does anything else. I don't have to ask, I don't even have to worry whether or not she's getting her work done. Because I know she is. And she is so much more confident now. Than where she was. I mean, it's, it's really, I mean, it's so incredible to see. And her grades have have come to a good place. And this year is 8th grade. It's really challenging.
Hannah Choi 12:30
And her school does not make school easy, though. Yeah, confidence is, I would say the one thing that has been the biggest change I've noticed in her and I remember when she was in fourth grade her saying to me, there's no point in getting excited about anything because it probably won't work out. And that just broke my heart. And now I see her excited about stuff even though she's so school is so boring. You know, of course, every kid every kid says yeah, it is. It's boring. Like work is boring for us. Right? Exactly. Yeah, I mean, not all the time. Yeah. But now I just like I remember she didn't ever want to handwrite anything but she also never wanted to type anything. And because she felt like she was too slow of a of a typer but she also felt like her handwriting was so poor. And so so that was there was always so much friction with anything that whenever she had to produce anything, and now she's like, bopping the keys with like, no problem. And her handwriting is gorgeous. And her notes are beautiful
13:45
They are! they're all color coded and highlighted and I mean she's got little little sticky notes in her books with notes in them it's unbelievable. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 14:00
She is such a good student it's incredible and she just uses all the all the tools and she's so organized you I don't know if you remember but when when she first I'm sure you do when she first started coaching she was very resistant to folders and oh yeah, no, it was more into like the shove method just like shove it into the backpack
14:20
Balls of paper in the backpack? Yeah, not no organization whatsoever. It was. Yeah, somewhat horrifying. Could you be that disorganized? Yeah. But now she has like an accordion folder with like everything neatly placed inside. It's it's a total 180 It really
Hannah Choi 14:44
I remember just talking about organization was really stressful for her. She would have really big emotions around changing her organizational style. And now she likes to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, off. So great. Well I love it. So, were there times where you? And I don't know, you can be honest with me, because I know how difficult it is as a parent to trust the people that we, you know, that we bring into our children's lives. But were there times where you where you questioned that? Did I make the right decision with coaching?
Kim 15:19
Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, there's always like, a doubt, like, you know, I think we all want to hit the easy button and like, have things just magically change. And they didn't magically change it. It took a long time. And, you know, I, you know, I think we all want to see progress happen faster. But the, she's a child, children are children, and, you know, they're, they're not working at our pace they're working at at theirs, and it's very different. So, yeah, of course, you know, everyone wants things to happen faster, especially when you know, you're a parent. And, you know, it's not just Skyla I have her sister too, and trying to balance both of them and trying to get them up to speed and get them in a better place. So that they can be successful. You know, there were times where I was like, ah, is this working? Is it not? I don't know. But, you know, I think just hanging in there. And then, you know, continuing to see over time that progress. I mean, it really has, it does take time. It does, it's there's no immediate silver bullet to solve these things. You do have to hang in there. And, you know, but four years, and we've seen incredible progress from
Hannah Choi 16:51
Tremendous, I know. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I think that her story, at least for me, as a coach has been such a great example of looking for these, like, beautiful, small moments, where I see a shift, and I see oh, like she reacted in this tiny little bit different way. And it's like, okay, I'm making some progress. And it is, so it was so minuscule. Like, so tiny. But I saw that, and, and so those tiny little things became, in my, like, in my mind, and my heart became these, like, huge wins. And I, like, I know, typing in my portal notes or emailing you or texting you and being like, yes. Right. Like this thing happened. And it seems like such a small thing, but it's, I've been waiting two years for this or whatever.
Kim 17:48
Right? Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's those small, iterative steps and wins and, you know, changes in her mindset, or just being open to like trying a tool you suggest or, you know, thinking about something a different way, or, you know, it, it takes it takes time to get kids comfortable with that stuff. And, you know, I mean, clearly, you built a great rapport with her from early on. And I think, you know, building that trust with her, allowed a lot to happen, of course, right. Because that's, that's the first step in any process in any human interaction is, is building trust between the coach and the child.
Hannah Choi 18:39
Yeah, yeah, that yeah, that was my I mean, I could tell the, the second I met her, I thought, okay, like, this is, this is not going to be easy, but I was, I was just, I just fell in love with her that first day and I, I just was so excited to, to have the chance to, to, you know, to work with her and, yeah, it. I mean, I, I know, I've told you this 100 times, and I'll continue to tell you it but it's just such a gift for me. I'm so grateful for it. I am just so overwhelmed sometimes by how lucky I feel that I've had her in my life. And I know that I will, like even if our coaching our coach client relationship ends, I know that will stay close because I just I think that I just can't imagine not having her in my life
Kim 19:32
is an amazing girl. And she's a really special child. I mean, she really is in so many ways. And you know, just kind of thoughtful and caring. I honestly she's, she's a gift to you and me.
Hannah Choi 19:53
Right, right. Yeah. So What would it present day Kim, tell tell Kim from 2015 or 2016, like when you first started, you know, thinking about adoption and
Kim 20:11
yeah. You know, I think that it's, you know, I, I went into it, honestly, you know, adopting two children as a single parent, which is a challenge. And then also working quite a number of hours per week. So it, it's been a, it was a really hard adjustment for me early on, I have to admit, like really hard from, you know, spending 40 plus years of your life as a, essentially a single person, and then all of a sudden, there's two little beings in your home all the time.
Hannah Choi 20:54
And they've come from challenging situation.
Kim 20:58
That's right. Yeah. And, you know, it was, I mean, I would never change the circumstances for the world. Never. It was such an amazing, you know, I don't even know what the term to use for it, but just that we found each other, and that we came together as a family, and that they are both, you know, really doing well, and going to, you know, a great private school next year, I would say, do do it, go ahead and adopt those girls and try to make a positive influence on their lives and help them any way you can. So, I think that, yeah, I think that, you know, had I know, now how successful this would have been for, you know, or this has been for Skyla. It would have been so easy going into it, because I would have been like, okay, all right, it's gonna be a few years, I know exactly when this is all going to shake out and be better. But yeah, it was stressful. There's been stressful on the way but it's, it's happening. I mean, like, things are improving, and they're really, really thriving. So it's wonderful to see.
Hannah Choi 22:28
really is, it's, it's, I love your story I love I love everything. I don't, I don't want to think about what would have happened if you hadn't found them. And it's, and also for yourself to like, what a beautiful thing that you've gotten for yourself to?
Kim 22:43
Absolutely, ya know, by far I'm the I'm the person that's getting the most, I think
Hannah Choi 22:51
and what are you looking forward to, for you and for them?
Kim 22:55
Ah, she's, I mean, well, so Skyla starts high school in the fall, I mean, like, I can't even like where did time go crazy, is crazy. And I'm excited for her to be, you know, in a school, it is going to be more challenging than where she has been. And, but I think, you know, she's up for the challenge now. And I think that she's going to do she's gonna do really well. And I think she's going to be surrounded by people that are motivated, and, you know, are going to push her maybe a bit more than where she is now. And I think that will be good for you know, not too much. Right? So but, but definitely a healthy push towards more academic kind of excelling more of an academic from an academic perspective. And, you know, the school also has a lot of sports, and art and theater. And so I really want to see her participate in a lot of those things as well because she loves her painting and she loves, you know, acting, she still threatens that she's gonna go for an audition and become an actress, we'll see.
Hannah Choi 24:14
I could just I could totally see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kim 24:18
So you know, I think that the school is going to offer a lot for her in terms of lots of different things academics, but also socially as well as other courses that I think will be will be great and then my goodness, I can't even think like, she'll be driving at some point. And then off to college. So it's, it's exciting. I think she has a really solid future in front of her and I'm really happy for the help that you've given us. Certainly through this process. I could not have done it. Honestly with without you would have been, Ah, you have so much patience? And I have almost none, so...
Hannah Choi 25:07
Well, you're doing something right, because it can't just be me. Yeah. Well, do you have any questions for me?
Kim 25:19
Right, let's see, what can I ask you? I know it was it was definitely walked into something that was unusual in terms of the circumstances, just given her background. Was it? Was it the hardest child you've ever had to work with?
Hannah Choi 25:39
No way. Although I don't know why me she definitely was very, it was very challenging. But she just kept coming back. Right. Like, like, even when we would have a frustrating session, and she would leave in tears. Or, like, if we had tech problems. It's, you know, and it didn't end well. When we met again, it was like, it never happened. And she was just back. You know, just back to her chip herself. I remember we would have corn parties. Like she would come on to a session if she hadn't eaten yet. It was just like a little dicey. And so I'd be like, alright, what can I get her to eat? And so, so we started this thing. And we still do it today, actually, where if, if like, she's eating something, I will ask her for some. And she gives it to me, like by putting it up to the camera. And we do it without even like, there's no laughter. Yeah, it is as if she is giving me the thing. And we have done this in sessions over the past four years, just the other day, she was eating Maltesers. And I was I love those. And I was like, Oh, can I can I have one? And she very seriously said, Sure, and picked it up and put it up to the camera, and I took it and ate it. And we've been doing that since I think since the first corn party where we both ate corn. I was like, I'm gonna just like get her to eat anything. Yeah, so I like ran upstairs and grabbed myself a bowl of frozen corn, just like eating frozen corn. Well, yeah. And I just, I don't know, I just felt like I said, I just fell for her right away. And I was just so happy to do whatever it took to, to get her to, you know, to do buy in to buy into it and to trust me. Yeah. And that I that I wasn't leaving. I'm not gonna leave. You can give me the hardest day and I'm not going to leave. I'm going to come back next week. Whether you want me to or not? Yes. And so maybe that maybe that is something that strengthened our relationship is that she recognized like that I wasn't gonna give up.
Kim 28:03
Yeah, most definitely. I mean, I, you know, clearly she came from, you know, a background where people did give up, you know, she got moved to different homes. You know, and I, it's funny, as we've talked, you know, she's admitted, like, I, you know, when you came and said you were going to adopt us. She's like, I didn't think like, this was going to be it for me. Like, I really didn't think this, that I was going to stay in one place. I thought I was gonna go somewhere else. And what a horrible I mean, what a horrible way to think but yes, she's stuck with me now. So
28:51
Yeah. And do you remember when the adoption was final? And we both notice, we noticed a really big difference.
Kim 28:58
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 29:03
Oh, yeah. Remember, like one session to the next. It was there was a big change with the adoption in between. That's right. Yeah. And she still has challenging days, right. Like there was we had a session a few months ago, where she just complained about school the entire time. And then the next session, she was like, Oh, look, I got I got 100 on this and I got 100 on that, and I'm gonna do this project. And so we just all have bad days, some days. Just really great at communicating how bad of a day it was.
Kim 29:32
That's right. Yes. No, she's she's very vocal on her bad days. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 29:37
Which is actually really good. Like talking through your stuff is important. Better than holding it in.
Kim 29:43
Absolutely. Yeah. What's What's the longest you've worked with a client?
Hannah Choi 29:53
Skyla
Kim 29:54
is it really? Wow. Wow. Yeah. You Okay.
Hannah Choi 30:01
Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Yeah. And I'm so excited to go to her graduation, her eighth grade. She showed me a picture of the dress she's wearing. So oh, do I have to dress up?
30:15
She's, she's got quite a dress for this. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 30:22
Cool. Well, I, you answered all my questions. Do you have anything else? Anything else you want to say? Or?
30:30
Like, how much time does it take to make meaningful change with with kids? Like, is it? I mean, it's been for years for us. But like, I can't imagine you can do it in six months, or a year or even two year, it has to be an extended period of time. Right.
Hannah Choi 30:53
My sister is also a coach for beyond booksmart. And she has a client she's been working with for six years. He's a senior in high school now. Yeah, it just, it takes a really long time. And I think part of it is just because change is hard. You know, even adults, like most of my clients are adult clients. And, and a lot of them come in thinking like, oh, I'll just do this for six, you know, six months. And you know, here, you know, a year and a half, two years later, they're still still getting a lot of benefit from it. But I think because your executive function skills are not finished developing, that part of your brain is not finished developing until you're in your mid 20s. So there's a lot of learning to be done. And kids who already have challenges in that area, it just makes it even harder. Yeah, yeah, it just takes a really long time. It really does. Especially when, you know, there's other stuff going on, you know, like, like, like, for example, like, schuyler's background, you know, and or just personality. Right. You know, there's, there's so much that ties into it, and then throw in a pandemic,
Kim 31:59
right. Oh, my God.
Hannah Choi 32:01
Right. That messed everything up!
Kim 32:04
Yeah, exactly. It's like two years of this. So
Hannah Choi 32:10
yeah, it's been really hard for most everybody. Almost everyone. Yeah,
Kim 32:16
yeah. Especially the kids. I mean, fortunately, I mean, she was able to be in school, the majority of the time, but yeah, it's still still hard. Or tough two years.
Hannah Choi 32:32
Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think that. I think that. I think that, yes, it's taken a long time for Skyla to make a lot of make change. But, but I don't think it's, that's like not, it's not unusual. And it's not It doesn't surprise me, what is the best thing about it is that you have been able to allow her to take her time to do it in in the time that that she needed. And that, you know that you know that she was you that you were in a situation that allowed her to, you know, to just take her time and be herself and find that for herself. And, and I really feel like because it was because we had the patients with her. And because we allowed her to learn that in her own way at her own speed. We met her where she was always right to me, we know that about her, you cannot force anything on her. You know, we just continually had to meet her where she was. But through that process, she's learned so much about herself, and she's learned what will work and we've learned what will work and what won't work. And so now, like, that's all really solid for her now. So like all of these things that she's learned about herself and strategies and tools and what's going to work and what's not going to work and what you've learned about her now. It's so solid in her it's so it's like become part of her because it was allowed to develop naturally. And it was allowed to develop in its own time. And so I think it'll, that that will, like serve her so well over the course of her life. Because it's she's learning them now in this, like formative years, you know, and that she wasn't forced to be anyone but herself. And and as hard as it was. We trusted her and we trusted the process that eventually she would figure it out. Yeah.
Kim 34:33
Yeah, it's been great. I mean, what a story. I Yeah. I was looking at our notes from like, the earlier sessions. And and sort of like after a year after two years after three years and just the different focus areas and the progress and you know, the good days the bad days, but Overall, she's she's just come so far.
Hannah Choi 35:03
I know, it's amazing. That's our story for today. Before I go, I wanted to share that just last week I took Skyla, her sister and my daughter out to lunch, I found myself just mesmerized by the beauty and the intelligence and sense of humor of these three girls. I'm so excited for their futures. And I don't know if I'll ever know how to put into words how lucky I feel to have met Skyla and been given the chance to become someone she trusts. So thank you, Kim, for trusting me. And thank you all for joining me today and taking time out of your day to listen. I really hope that you found something meaningful or inspiring in today's episode. I know for me, it was a really moving and special experience and I feel very fortunate to have been able to share it all with you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to this podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening
Changing habits is at the core of all personal transformations. However, as we all know, it can be really difficult to stay consistent and disciplined when trying to build new habits. Why is it so hard and how can you actually follow through on new habit goals?
Habit tracking is the practice of choosing habits that you’d like to add to or remove from your life and keeping track of whether you do them or not. Listen to this week’s episode to learn about how tracking habits can help you. You’ll hear some ideas for how to build habit tracking into your life and will hopefully find inspiration to track some habits of your own!
Bullet Journals
www.bulletjournal.com The original, by Ryder Carroll
River Fox BuJo on Pinterest This is my daughter’s bullet journal Pinterest account.
Little Coffee Fox Bullet Journal - Getting fancy with your bullet journal
Little Coffee Fox Minimalist Bullet Journal - Keeping it simple
Habit Tracking Articles for Further Reading
The Ultimate Habit Tracker Guide: Why and How to Track Your Habits by James Clear
Habit Tracker Ideas List - A very long list of things you can track
Why You Should Be Tracking Your Habits and How To Do It from lifehacker.com
How long does it take to form a habit? The explanation of the data of the habit formation study I mention in the episode
Habit Tracking Apps
These were all recommended to me by people who like using them. I have only used Habit Loop myself (which I love).
Habit List - for iPhones
Streaks - for iPhones
Habit Loop - for Android
Habitica - for Android
Books
Atomic Habits by James Clear
Habit Stacking by SJ Scott
Readings on Habit Building Strategies
18 Tricks to Make New Habits Stick - A good list from Life Hack
How to Build New Habits that Stick from Developing Good Habits website by SJ Scott
How to Build a New Habit: This is Your Strategy Guide - from James Clear’s website
And, last but not least, here’s my Chocolate Banana Peanut Butter Smoothie Recipe!
Transcript
Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
Today I'm diving into the topic of habit tracking. In my episode about managing our emotions around failure, I talked a little bit about thinking like a scientist. Well, habit tracking is an excellent way to put this idea into action. By the way, this episode is packed full of habit tracking ideas and suggestions, so you might want to pause me and grab a pen and paper to write down anything that inspires you. I'll wait. Okay, so what is habit tracking? You may have heard of it already. But just in case you haven't yet, habit tracking is a practice of choosing the habits that you'd like to add to or remove from your life and then keeping track of whether you do them or not. In today's episode, I'll share five ways that habit tracking can be beneficial, and then I'll explain five different methods of tracking your habits.
Before I get started, I want to mention that habit tracking is just one way to support yourself while you're trying to build or break habits. In a future episode, I'll cover some more ideas for making habit building a little easier. If you're too excited to wait for that episode, check out the show notes for this episode. I've listed some useful resources in there for you.
Okay, so let's talk about habit tracking and why we might want to do it. So you can use habit tracking to see your progress. Collecting data over a period of time, even a week can be helpful. But hopefully you can do it for longer. And then over time, you might start to see change happening. And this can be super helpful. And along with seeing progress, you might also notice trends in your data, you can then adjust how you approach that habit. For example, a few years ago, I wanted to reduce my sugar intake because of some health stuff I was dealing with. So I used a habit tracker. I noticed that I always seem to eat sweets on Saturdays, no matter how hard I tried not to I just always ended up eating them on Saturdays. So instead of beating myself up about it, I just said, "Okay, let's just eat a little sugar on Saturdays and see about eliminating it on the other days". And this really made a huge difference for me. I stopped feeling bad about eating sweets on Saturdays. And interestingly, looking forward to eating sweets on that day actually helped me eat less during the week. I think an overlooked but really important part of habit tracking is figuring out what habits aren't actually all that important to you in whatever season of life you're in. And I often talk with my clients about the power of the shoulds you know, the things that we feel like we should do. So sometimes, we might decide to track a habit that is something that we feel like we should do. I recently read an article about how great green smoothies are for you, right? You know what, they are tons of leafy greens and some kind of citrus or a banana all blended up. And I thought all right, okay, I should add a green smoothie to my morning routine. Yeah, I just couldn't make it stick. It's cool, whatever. So I don't start my day with a green smoothie. I do start it with a chocolate banana peanut butter one though.
So anyway, if we repeatedly do not do the new habit, perhaps it's not the right time to introduce it into our lives. Again, this idea of failure being informative comes up. Failing to do these habits gives us a lot of info. So ask yourself, why aren't you doing them? Are they truly important to you? Okay, next up motivation. Habit trackers can be highly motivating for some people. Personally, I only find them really useful for the data that they provide. In fact, this data is what motivates me to actually remember to track them in the first place. But my teenage daughter loves doing the thing. So she can fill out the box in her pretty hand-drawn habit tracker that she has in her bullet journal. If you're like Hannah, what's a bullet journal? Just hold on a sec, and I'll explain them in a bit. Okay, next up, sometimes we need to build in a new habit because of a health reason, a change in diet like maybe we need to cut out morning coffee. Or maybe we've started taking new meds or doing exercises for physical therapy, we might want to use a habit tracker to reinforce the addition of these new things into our lives. We may even be feeling a little stressed about these new required habits. So a tracker might help us to remember to do them, which in turn will ease some of that stress.
Okay, so hopefully I've convinced you of all the great reasons to track some habits. And now we have to figure out the best way to do it. Keep in mind that everything I recommend today can be modified to, you know, fit your own needs. I always encourage my coaching clients to take the tools that I teach them, and then tweak them until they work for their situation. If you're not sure which one to use, just try the one that kind of resonates with the most with you, and then approach it like an experiment. They might not work well for you at first, and that's totally okay. Right? Just see what part of it is working for you and what part isn't, and then change it up to suit your needs. Alright, so tracking tools.
First up is that bullet journal that I mentioned earlier, the idea of bullet journaling was created by a guy called Ryder Carroll. And a bullet journal is simply a planner that you create to fit your own needs. And this customizable aspect of it is actually what I really love about them. Mine, it's very simple. It's just a plain notebook, I've got a few things in it, mostly just my weekly calendar and a meal planning page. My daughter, on the other hand, has a bullet journal and it's truly a work of art. She has her weekly calendar and an exercise tracker, she's got book lists and gratitude practice and a habit tracker. So you can add easily add a habit tracker to your bullet journal just like she did. If I went more into detail with how to use a bullet journal and how to track habits within one, I'd keep you here all day. And that's not what any of us wants. So be sure to check out the show notes for more bullet journal resources. And if you don't use a bullet journal already, I highly recommend checking them out. I've had a few clients that have had a lot of success using them.
Okay, next on my list is spreadsheets. My sister Julia is the queen of tracking things with a spreadsheet. I envy the data that she's collected over the years. Well, I say that I envy it. But I don't actually envy it so much that I'm actually going to start using spreadsheets. But if spreadsheets are your thing, you can build one that tracks your habits or anything you want to collect data on.
All right, Fitbits and other smartwatches. Fitbits can track your steps and other habits like exercise or how much water you drink. And there are apps that you can add to your Apple or your Android watch. You can check out the show notes for some suggestions for apps. I personally don't wear a watch. But I know that for the people that do they really love them.
There are a ton of apps out there for both iPhones and Android phones that can make habit tracking easier. Something that I really like about the apps is that they have built in Notifications, and you can modify them as needed. And I personally found the notification super helpful to get me to do the actual habit.
And if you are a parent, you might be familiar with the strategy of sticker charts. You know, grownups can use them too. I actually use this sticker chart when I'm training for a half marathon. I got this idea from my other sister, Maria. So I print out the training plan I'm going to use and then I put a sticker in each box after I complete that day's training challenge. And usually just covering the chart with stickers is rewarding enough for me. But sometimes I'll build like a small prize or reward into it for a little extra motivation. Talking about sticker charts reminds me of when my kids were little. And I always felt like I needed a sticker chart to help me remember to use my kids sticker charts. Anybody relate to that feeling?
So this actually brings up a good point. It's all well and good to have this idea of tracking habits, right? So let's track them. But how can you actually remember to track them, especially when you're first starting out. So to help yourself, you basically just have to really support yourself, you have to build a really strong scaffold. To do this, you could set reminders on your phone, you could use the notification feature in the habit tracking app, you could put sticky notes around that remind you to track the thing. For example, if you're tracking how much water you drink, you could put a note right on your water bottle. Or if you're tracking exercise, you could put a sign up in the area of your home where you exercise. Or you could stick it in, you know with your stuff that you put in your gym bag. There's a million ways to do it. So get creative and see what works for you. It might take a bit for the habit of tracking habits to stick. But with good support, hopefully you'll find success.
And like I've said before, and I'll say again, and again change takes time. And learning how to look for small wins can really help keep you motivated through this challenge of making change. And habit tracking is a great way to look for these wins. In fact, if you're just starting out with habit tracking, I encourage you to pick only one or two habits at first. Diving in and optimistically picking a whole bunch might be exciting and promising and a little bit crazy. But it's likely that it'll end up feeling like there are just too many habits to track, and you're a lot less likely to be successful with those new habits. So just pick a couple that you think are realistic, you know, realistic to add to your life right now and give it a shot. And as we know, habits can take a very long time to form or break. I think I read a study that said it takes on average 66 days. So like I said earlier, having a record of your progress over time, can help support that habit as you're building or breaking it. If you're working with a coach, you can ask them to support you as you track your progress. Maybe have them checking with you at the beginning of each session or during the week. Are you using the habit tracker that you chose? And if not, why? Maybe have a conversation with your coach to figure that out. And no worries if you don't have a coach, try and listing a friend or another trusted person, share your new habit tracking, experiment with them and ask them to hold you accountable. Maybe you guys could even track something together. My family loves creating Fitbit contests with the other people in my extended family who were Fitbits as well. You could create family sticker charts for family goals. Or you could hold yourself accountable by creating text chat groups of like minded people who are also trying to reach goals.
So that's it for today. Wow. Who knew there was so much to say about habit tracking, I'd actually taken a break from tracking my own habits. But in writing this episode, I found a renewed zest for tracking habits. So I'm back on the wagon. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful in this episode.
Before I go, I wanted to share some listener feedback about my episode on failure. In that episode, I mentioned the commitments or goals that executive function coaching clients make after each session. And Neal, one of our coaches suggested that instead of saying they were commitments or goals we coaches give to our clients. Perhaps I could have said they were commitments and goals made with our clients. I love that this small change in prepositions makes such a huge difference in meaning. Thank you, Neil, for making this suggestion. And I completely agree. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode on habit tracking. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond bookstart.com/podcast. And we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening
Building on the theme of failure from episode one, I sat down with Jodi for this week's episode - the mom of a young adult who had serious Executive Functioning challenges during his transition to college that impacted his grades, mental health, and overall quality of life. He has since made an inspiring transformation working with an EF coach over this past year and is now doing remarkably well. This episode explores what the tumultuous process looked like in all its glorious imperfection from Jodi's perspective.
Jodi is very open about her son’s challenges with Executive Functions, the pandemic, and the transition to college, and how all of these factors made life exceedingly stressful for them both as Jodi wrestled with wanting to help but not knowing what to do.Listen to this episode to hear Jodi’s inspirational story about how she and her son are thriving after what felt like a huge failure. Hopefully, if you or your child are struggling with your own Executive Functions, this episode will give you some inspiration that with hard work, time, and the right support, massive transformations are possible.
Some readings and resources related to topics & themes that came up in my interview with Jodi:
Resources for Parents with Children Who Have ADHD
Child Mind Institute - Complete Guide to ADHD
Parenting a Child with ADHD
American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry - ADHD Resource Center
Transition from High School to College or Work
College Readiness Checklist - from BBS Tools Library
Transition to College Checklist - from FAME Main
12 Steps for Easing the Transition to Work - from understood.org
Asking for Help
4 Tips to Effectively Ask for Help—and Get a Yes
Teaching Students How to Ask for Help
Beyond BookSmart Resources
Overwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Control (blog)
How to Help Overwhelmed College Students (webinar)
College Executive Function Coaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
In the last episode, I covered the idea of failure and how it isn't actually failure. Many of our listeners are either executive function coaching clients or their parents, we know that both clients and parents of clients can feel like they're failing, both before they reach out for coaching and then even during coaching. But as we know, this isn't actually failing, right? It's just part of the process of finding what works. I wanted to explore this more and look at it from the perspective of someone who knows this feeling well. So I sat down with Jodi, she's a mom of a young adult who is working on improving his executive function skills. He's working with an executive function coach. And Jodi also spent some of her time talking with families who are interested in coaching for their own kiddos. So I'll let her tell you more about herself and share her unique perspective on brains and parenting and just share her inspirational story about coming back from what felt like a huge failure. And just a short note, before we dive into my conversation with Jodi, this is our first interview for this brand new podcast. And as you'll hear in the first few minutes, we're still working out some of the audio kinks. But we're not seeing this as a failure. Nope, it's been an excellent opportunity to learn how we can make it the best it can be. And it's just a little bit of a bumpy ride along the way. All right on to the show. Hi, Jodi, thanks so much for joining me today. Could you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your family's journey to executive function coaching?
Jodi 01:58
Yeah. So I'm Jodi. I'm a mom of young while a freshman/sophomore son in college. And I have a junior daughter in college and my daughter actually has multiple sclerosis, which is an autoimmune disorder that attacks your brain or spinal cord. So she got diagnosed at 16. So she was just young in high school when she got that. She was really high high executive functioning. I'm I feel like the only thing I can say I'm a genius at is executive functioning. And maybe empathy. It but um, and she was the same, but now she has MS. So she's she's struggled with a lot of those challenges. She's not the person who's with Beyond BookSmart, interestingly enough. In my career I work as a nurse and actually in an insurance company, but I work with our brain spinal cord injuries. So I spent the last 10 or 11 years working with very closely with brain injuries from their original right acute out of the injury and through the rehab and, you know, throughout their life of the injury until they're, you know, outside of our claim and workman's comp. So I have a lot of knowledge about how brains work differently. And what happens when brains don't work the way they used to work. And I have a son who has was diagnosed with ADHD when he was very little and the biggest reason why he was diagnosed with it was because he had a lot of trouble managing his emotions, so he had a lot of emotional dysregulation. I used to always say like, you can't take them off the train tracks, you gotta let them know, we're gonna be switching tracks, give him a little time advance notice. And then obviously, the typical ADHD stuff where, you know, they're, they're distracted, they don't focus, they seem like they're not listening. Um, so, so my son who has the ADHD diagnosis is the one who is in. We're just about I think a year somewhere around our year anniversary here with I think we're just maybe a month shy of that with Beyond BookSmart in through his life when he was little, it was always a challenge. I did bring him to a neuropsychologist who when he was maybe in second grade, and she said, "Wow, he needs some help". You know, it was it was pretty it was pretty significant not you know, very significant and so we did a lot with that we tried to avoid medications we weren't able to avoid medications and you know, he he grew up you got to better better hand handle with his with his emotions and regulating emotions and, but still all of the typical challenges that we see with our ADHD kids and learning and today's learning environment, which is so different than my learning environment I got to play when we were in lower grades, you know, they don't get to play anymore. No. Oh, so um, so he did he, you know, we did alright in our school system were very remote. We're kind of out in the woods in Western Massachusetts and we have a regional school and great teachers and great education. His teachers were really committed to him and understanding his differences and helping us with that. So the school system was really great. But when he hit high school, he was done with meds. He didn't like the way they made him feel. So all of a sudden, we're in a situation where the meds were helping him and he never learned any tools. So we did a lot of tripping through high school as far as like, falling behind getting ahead, falling behind getting ahead. He had a 504 plan, where you know, and I would constantly have team meetings, I would collect the team meetings right, and sit down and say, why can't we all work together? I can't, I can't bring it home if I don't know what it is that I'm trying to you know, do it at home. And so we got through it, but he ended up being a on top of all this he in in, you know, as we see a lot, very smart intellectual kid and... COVID. Senior year. So he wouldn't know what's happening all sudden, everybody's home, he lost prom, he lost senior trip, he lost graduation, he lost senior track, you know, just, and he lost his friends, which he's always had a hard time with friends. And he finally got this really great group that just really melded probably his junior year. And then he lost that group of friends. So we went into video gaming, because that's where everybody was, right? We couldn't see anybody. So we went into video gaming, he had zero structure. Time of day came and went, No, no, nobody had structured school. Nobody knew what to do. There wasn't planned like it is now. They're a little bit better at that remote teaching. So we kind of lost him. So we already had those struggles, and then I kind of lost him. So hoping that college would be better, he dove right into college into robotic engineering college. Remote robotic engineering. Yeah, no. Well, and they didn't really know.
Hannah Choi 07:30
Yeah, they were figuring it out, too.
Jodi 07:33
Yeah. Yeah, they really had a good grasp already, you know, on that kind of situation. But obviously switching to everybody being remote. He was very isolated. So he went to his dorm. And he didn't, he had a roommate who was never there. And so he sat in his room alone all day and all night and had classes that he never attended, because they were on his computer. And, you know, so that's sort of when he failed every single class. Or they do quarters there. So we
Hannah Choi 08:05
That's fast. Those quarters are fast. My grad school, I went to UC Santa Barbara in California and its quarters there. It was, it was Yeah, but is it nine weeks or something goes by fast?
Jodi 08:16
It's um, it's they I think it's seven, seven and a half week much. Yeah. reclass is seven and a half week. Yes. Four days a week. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 08:25
I know. You basically start and then all of a sudden it's midterms. Yes.
Jodi 08:29
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, by midterms, he still hasn't done any of his homework because it's only two weeks in right and so it all catch up. Don't worry about it. It's all good and not so much not so much. Yeah. So he is and he wouldn't take help and our relationship started to get I'm really close with my kids. Both of them and our relationship was really getting hurt because I was having to you know, I was having to be the I can't I can't regulate his college and manage him at college and be mom without him just eating me you know so it was it was really really tough and in high school I was looking for executive functioning coaches in the area right and ever thought to that remote one option
Hannah Choi 09:17
right, that was before COVID Before we thought that way Yeah, we didn't think
Jodi 09:21
that way at all everything is better in person better in person and although it is better in person remote gives us some really fantastic opportunity.
Hannah Choi 09:28
Look at you and I, we're having this conversation.
Jodi 09:30
Yeah, I know! We're having conversation. We aren't that far away but we still aren't next door. So so you know earlier there was really no executive functioning coaches out here the school didn't know anybody and you know, he got he went to like executive functioning specialty therapists but it's very different. You know, your coach.
Hannah Choi 09:51
It's not the same thing. Yeah.
Jodi 09:53
So so the school actually said Beyond BookSmart is not anything on our list. We can't tell you how it goes. But what I do know is we have kids doing. So that's the only one I've heard of, if you want to give them a call and give it a try. So that's how we got cool. That's a little history on me.
10:11
Yeah, I'm so glad for for him and for you and your relationship that they knew about that they knew about executive function coaching? Because it's not it's, I mean, first of all, that people even know what executive functions are. That's, that's really common. When, when people like, if it ever comes up, like, Oh, what do you do for work? And then I tell them, they nine times out of 10, I think that I work with executives. And so they're like,
Jodi 10:39
Oh, I would have never thought that.
Hannah Choi 10:42
And so and so then I'm like, well, some coaches work with executives, because some executives need executive function coaching. But the majority of our clients don't are not executives. So yeah, so that's wonderful that they that they, that they knew about it, and were able to connect to
Jodi 11:01
Well, his his school is really, the school is full of a whole bunch of kids on the spectrum. I mean, in I guess you maybe you probably see that a lot of engineering schools. Yeah. But they, they have a whole department that works with these kids for this reason. And so I thought that were going to be okay, because of them. But then realized, I think maybe we would have been if it wasn't for COVID. But there was it COVID just changed, right, everybody, everybody, you know, they just, it just blew up. Yeah, anything that was difficult was so
Hannah Choi 11:37
that's the story that I personally have heard from so many people. And I know a lot of my colleagues have heard and just other people that I've talked to, I was just talking to a friend of mine recently. And she was just saying, like, she felt like she had everything together. And then when COVID hit, she realized she actually didn't, it's so much of our success is built is supported by the structures that we have, right? And so when those structures are there, and they're solid, and they're working and and we can kind of like relax, and so then then it's like, okay, then I don't have to worry about all that other stuff. So now I can, I can, you know, I can, like the parts, the parts that are challenging for me are not as challenging because I'd have to worry about all those other things. And so then when you do have to worry about them, and you're you've never managed them like that before. So like, you don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the story that I'm hearing. And I think that a lot of us coaches are hearing from pretty much everyone.
Jodi 12:37
I'm even seeing it. I mean, like I say, and I know what executive functioning is, right? Because I work with brain injuries. So yeah, what happens when everybody falls on their head, they hit their frontal lobe and boom, that's, you know, sort of, that's where it goes. But, um, so yeah, so they, they, they knew of it. I mean, that's, I spoke to them with those terms. And they were like, Yeah, you know, this place we hear, you know, it's in Boston, whatever. And so and so here we are. But now it's just and even some of the parents that I talked to now, because between the his school, I'm on the parent Facebook site on his school, so between his school and then doing a little bit of liason, so I guess, liaison work type thing here, you know, just talking to other parents to let them know what my experience is. It's just there are a lot of questions still about... Well, it's, you know, remote and, you know, we're already doing so much on a computer. Do you feel like the remote can be successful? I feel like somebody needs to sit next to my kid. And I'm like, these, these these kids have been staring at screens for three years.
Hannah Choi 13:47
It's nothing new for them. No,
Jodi 13:50
they actually don't know how to sit down next to a person.
Hannah Choi 13:52
Haha, yeah! "What do you doing so close to me?"
Jodi 13:56
Yeah, which is actually kind of interesting even saying that because COVID You know, I think we find kids on the spectrum are not necessarily kids with ADHD but my son is definitely has his his levels of socially awkwardness. I mean, there are there he has a hard time reading social cues, but he's himself is very social once it becomes integrated, very chatty and social. But he was really hard to engage in, initially with as parents, we're reaching out on Facebook together saying, "my kids are struggling, my kids suffering, my kids not passing, my kids depressed", you know, and trying to get our kids together, which was like, herding ants. You know, like, I mean, when you know, there's fruit all over the place. There's like it possible, you know, and they're like, oh, yeah, sure. Okay. Well, yeah, my I'll reach out later, later, like later later. And then finally, somehow, I'm pretty aggressive. So you know, I definitely helicoptered that one. And you know, there were a handful of us parents who did and we sort of forced them to get together a little bit, a few of them. And what did they talk about? Are their moms! Great! We worked so hard to get them together. But now, now I'm you know, there's still that conversation is still going on. This is happening with COVID or without COVID. And so I'm always speaking up and saying, Look, you know, send me a private message and I'll let you know what's going on for me. So I've spoken to a lot of parents at the school and actually, some of them directed here, but also just some saying, "Look, I'll have my kid reach out to you". And I'll tell you, in I can say it's, it has a it's a direct effect from the coaching that he's been receiving. As much as we're doing this coaching for a lot of executive functioning skills, he is getting so much more confident in himself and aware of like, who he is, and that he's different in different is okay, okay. So he's reaching out to these kids. He's like, "Oh, yeah, no problem, Mom". And then I'm like, hey, you know, gently, did you ever reach out to the kid? He's like, "Oh, yeah, we reached out, we spoke, we talked, we're on Discord together. And I've met him for dinner." And I'm like,
Hannah Choi 16:19
When I, when I think about working with my clients, my dream for them. And I'm sure like all other coaches feel this way, or anyone that works with someone in this kind of capacity is that is that when you're done working with them, they then take what they've learned, and bring it out into the world and share it and help other people. And what a great example of that!
Jodi 16:40
Well, let me tell you another one, which is this is really like jumping ahead in in sort of missing the point here. Well, I guess not missing a point, right. We're here to talk. But jumping out of the executive functioning, which I'm sure that people who are listening want to hear, right. But taking a pause on that, since it's kind of going in this direction. He one of the parents, I was speaking to who was trying to get a feel for you know, talking to me about you know, what's it like to be to have a kid in this and, you know, a lot of parents are, you know, we have to sign up and for so many months, and you're worried about that, right? You know, we can deal with it. And, you know, my biggest thing is, it takes six, nine, twelve months to create a behavior. So you got to commit for six months. It's not going to work at three. It's probably not going to work at six. we're gonna say, you know, if you're here, it's because somebody's hit bottom. But with all that being said, the dad was like, would your son mind talking to my son, because, you know, I can't convince him that this is the thing. I'm willing to take the jump, but he needs to take the jump. And I'm like, Yeah, sure. never talked to my son about it. Yeah sure! He'll be home this weekend. So, you know, I go into his room. And I'm like, and he goes, Mom, what? He's like, what? And so I asked him if he would talk to him. He's like, Yeah, sure you have his phone number is a discord. So I give him his phone number. As I'm talking to him. Now, you're a coach, you've got to know and anybody listening who has a parent, or maybe is even in it themselves? Perseveration. Like, wait till later, is there a common denominator? And he's like, sure picks up his phone to (makes dialing sound) "What should I say?" I say something. And he's like, ah, that doesn't really sound like me since this thing. So then he shows it to me. He's like, What do you think about this? I'm like, just hit send. Hit Send. The kid responds right back 15 minutes later, they're on the phone. And, and, and I and I had to share this with his coach, because I think this is kind of exactly what you're saying. Like, you're hoping that not only are they going to benefit from this and find a better way to find themselves, their fit their way to fit and be successful in this crazy world they've been dumped into because we got to slowly progress right with, we didn't have executive functioning, we slowly learned the technology. They just woke up. We're born into the technology they didn't get to like, figure it out. So he says he's talking to this kid for at least 45 minutes and you know, pacing all over the house and stuttering through his words and trying to get his thoughts out and all that. And eventually he gets rolling. And he is the stuff he's saying. He's like, look, he's like, it's hard work. It's really it sucks. It sucks in the beginning. And I was at rock bottom. So I knew I had to do it because I there was nowhere else to go. And I didn't want to and I lied to my mom and I lied to my coach and and he's like, it's kind of hard to lie to him because they're on your computer and they're looking at what's going on. And he's like, You got to share your stuff. If you're not going to share your stuff. It's not even going to work like this is what he's saying. You know, and there's pauses the other kids like asking questions and uh huh. You know, and then he's like, you know, going on and on and on. Had to have been 45 minutes, I was talking to this kid, and I'm in the living room in tears. Yeah, I would want to cry the stuff the coach and I have been saying, you know, he's coming out of his mouth, he's like, You have to be really, I don't think he used the word transparent. But he basically said, you know, you have to be transparent. If you lie, you're only hurting yourself. Because guess what they're gonna find out, your parents are paying for it, they're gonna be mad, the coach is gonna tell your parents, you know, you've got to let them talk to your parents. And he's like, look, my coach talks to my mom. So now my mom doesn't bother me. So let your coach talk to your dad. Let your coach talk to your mom. Yeah. You know, he's like, let them all talk. And but he's, but it was the coolest piece about it was he was like, it sounds like you really should do it. He's like, it's gonna be really hard work. He goes, but you know, this, this is this is it's getting me through on passing. I'm learning. And what was one of the things he had said, I can't. He was talking about. You know, that? Oh, one of the other pieces he was saying. So the whole lying part. I mean, we literally just went back through that, right? He goes, it's gonna feel like you're not making any progress. Wow. Like, I feel like sometimes why am I wasting my time, I should just quit. I'm not making any progress. And then he's like, and then I think about where I was, and I pass this many classes, I failed some classes. I didn't lie, and I got really ahead, then I got excited. And then I fell behind. And he's like, like, and then the other thing he said, which I could not believe, is, "you have to be honest with yourself". I was like, is this kid eading from the book, you know, he's like, You have to be honest for yourself. And you have to ask for help. Right? In his coach has been like, and we both been like "Coby, until you have to ask for help." Guess what, you can't do it. Just acknowledge that this is your your he hates he won't use the word pattern anymore, because he has changed. And to him, he doesn't have the same patterns, even though looks that way to me. So but it's just like listening to him say all the things that his coach and I have been saying over and over and over again, coming out of his mouth. I want him to keep talking to his kids. Because the more he says it right, the more it becomes real for him. And he holds up the phone. And he was so pumped. He said, I think he's gonna sign up. I feel like he's gonna get help, like, I'm getting help. And it feels so good not to have all of that. He was also alone, because I don't get it. I have executive functioning. I've really good executive functioning. That makes no sense to me. You know, so Wow, that was that was a huge off the track.
Hannah Choi 23:04
Oh, I love it, though. It makes me think about like, if you were to, if you were to to check in with how you felt like when you heard that conversation, and think about back to when he first started and how you felt when he first started coaching. Like, at like, if you if if present day Jodi could tell past Jodi, like beginning of coaching Jodi, what would you tell yourself?
Jodi 23:34
I would say you're right to stick with it, you know, go the beaten path, because when we started, it was painful. He was depressed. And he has a therapist now. And he has his coach. And any a support group at school, like all these kids are now a support group to each other. And it was so painful because he started he ended up dropping out the fourth quarter, he had to withdraw from school. So he didn't get suspended for a year because he hadn't passed any classes. And so he was just he couldn't have been more bottom and he looked like, like, he looked like a cancer patient, the circles under his eyes, you know? And he said, he said "I need, I think I need help". And I said and so we did some research. We had a couple of things that we were looking at in this from you know, the school had not recommended you guys won't give me your name not solely recommended. And and so he was at rock bottom and he owned that he was at rock bottom before he just still kept thinking he was going to be able to do it. He was going to be able to catch up. He was going to be able to figure it out. And so we started we started a little bit he started a little bit of coaching really got to know his coach and they hit it off like good so well. Yeah. And we didn't need to go on to a second one or anything. It was a fantastically perfect match and still remains that way. But so he took a summer class so so the the last quarter he just went up, he worked like regular job worked and worked with the coach and we just did sort of life skills type stuff. They did, he did with them. And then we started a summer class. So summer classes were seven weeks. Okay. And it was community college, but it was still seven weeks and it was one class. One class seven weeks history. All writing okay. Oh, no, take that back. It wasn't history. It was psychology. All writing. I think it's his favorite classes ever taken. He hates writing any any doesn't like to look at himself. Right? It was incredible. You got an A in that class, right. So that was awesome. And then we roll into, but it was a great start. And then in the middle, he was crashing and burning. And then from that crash and burn trying to catch back up and getting an A, the teacher was so great with him, which is surprisingly, because the teacher really appeared to be really narcissistic. It was it the way he wrote the way he spoke the way his syllabus was written. It was very, it was like, I was like, this is interesting, but he loved my like the retrospect he just was like looking at himself and all of it. Yeah. So but the painful part was, as we went through those really, as we got that we did the second semester in the summer with two classes. I remember what they were. But he ended up getting a B and a C in those classes. And that that was that's where today's God, I wish I could go back and just like tap myself on the shoulder and give myself a hug and say, this is a right stick with it. Because I wasn't sleeping. He wasn't sleeping. He was it was it was painfully hard for him. His brain hurt, he couldn't sleep, he had headaches. I mean, it is a complete roto root of the way they function. You know, it's it's, it was it was so hard. It was so hard to watch. And I find that a lot of the parents that I'm talking to their kids are the earliest they don't think that their kids need that much help. But he needed that much help. And he's he was working through depression, but it was he has zero executive functioning. He doesn't understand time, how long will take you to get this done? Not even how long does it take you to go grocery store, which he's gone to 100,000 times now. He doesn't know how to organize himself. He doesn't know where to start. He doesn't know how to what comes first what comes second, none of it. So it was a lot to learn and implement and get graded on all the same time. Yeah, that is in he again. He just looked like a very, very ill person. And I knew I knew he had to stick with it. And but it was very painful. And so for any parents who do go into this in and see that, stick with it, support your kid, tell him they're doing a great job, he would consistently take one step forward, and two steps backwards. And one step forward. And one set, you know, it was like, it almost seemed like he was never getting any for traction. But then he did. Yeah. You know,
Hannah Choi 28:32
so what, like, for you, how did you? How did you handle that? Like how, like, what are strategies that you use for yourself? To when you like when you saw him take, you know, like one step forward and two steps back or
Jodi 28:50
I didn't? I didn't always handle it. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean,
Hannah Choi 28:55
it's like, as a coach, it is. It's, it is so hard when you see that, but they're not our children. I mean, sometimes they feel like they're our children, but they're not. And I know like for myself when I see a client who's you know, struggling like that. It's really hard. And, and, and it requires so much patience. And it requires like so much looking for these tiny little wins and recognizing like, oh, wait, okay, so we're like not doing well in all these other areas. But this one little tiny nugget of gold has been found. So like, what, what what did you like for yourself to get through that
Jodi 29:40
you handed in one out of three homeworks in a week? That's better than zero and a three homeworks I mean, that's what we were celebrating. Yeah. And he got up and went to class, online live and didn't watch the recording once this week. I was like, This is what like yeah, Ah, it was it, it was so hard. But for in for me, I didn't do it graciously. So any parents out there who aren't I would, I would handle it horribly in in fall into my own patterns, which is, which, you know, we talked about before we started recording, I was watching this, listening to this other podcast one day and I was crying because I thought, oh my god, I'm the worst parent in the world, I have alienated my child, trying to make him like me. And treating them like he was just a bad kid who didn't want wasn't motivated or, you know, was lazy, they get these lazy labels, they don't have the skill. So. So I went back and forth just like he did, I took two steps forward, one step backwards and one step forward and half step backwards, you know, I would support him one day, and the next day, I would get frustrated and be like, how could you not have had it in your homework? And so that's where the coach came in.
Hannah Choi 31:00
Oh, and so how did how did that change it for you.
Jodi 31:05
So I still communicated with I communicate with a coach. And so once he established a relationship with my son, and he established a relationship with me, and I was very clear with him, you need to call me out, you need to call me out. And it doesn't matter if feelings get hurt, I'm not gonna go tattling to, you know, to anybody to say, your main we want a new coach said you need to call me out, I need you to point to me and say back off back off, not your role. And he did. And he actually had a very long phone call with me where I was in tears. And he was just very honest. And I appreciated it. And I think without really he knew he could do that. I would imagine that you guys can't do that with everybody.
31:54
No, yeah, and my experience actually, my I mostly work with college and adults. And, and the parents of the kids that I have worked with, have in general not been involved. And so it, but what you said is so important how like your like your coach, the relationship between the coach, and the person being coached is so important. But the network, the support network of the person being coached, in a lot of situations is a big part of it. And so you have a trust and rapport with your coach with your child's coach, or, you know, or whoever. I mean, it could be your partner's coach, like if you're an adult, if you're, you know, if you're an adult and you have a partner, the partner might, you know, also need to be get some reassurance from the coach. So, right, it's right, it depending on the needs of the people in the support network of the person being coached. So that's wonderful that you are able to get that.
Jodi 32:55
Yeah, so he's been fantastic. I didn't really think about that. And I know some of the parents that I've talked to, they're just like, I don't really know what my son does, but I just found out that he's not passing any of his classes. And I thought to myself, Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, but then that parents like, Oh my God, how could you be so into your kids stuff? Like back off, you know? So,
Hannah Choi 33:15
And there's no right way to do it? And right, and what you said, like about listening to the podcast, and then crying and feeling like, you know, what am I doing? Like, how much of parenting is this guilt? Right? This like, guilt that we put on ourselves? No matter what, we're not doing it right. I mean, I don't know about you, but I that's something that I struggle with as a parent often. And yeah, and it's it's...
Jodi 33:39
You just hope in the end, you didn't screw them up too bad.
Hannah Choi 33:45
Meanwhile, here we all are here we all are going to therapy. Yeah, yeah.
Jodi 33:53
But the coach, I am, I am, again, super close with my kids. And in you know, you could label it helicopter parenting, I would say I am not the Nancy helicopter parent, but I am definitely in there trying to recognize where they need help and helping them acknowledge that they have deficits and that I'm here to give them resources. Like with my daughter, she needed resources with coaching and soccer and she didn't really need we needed medical resources when she got diagnosed, and my son has been, you know, social environments. What kind of sport can we get him into where he doesn't feel like he's getting bullied and I created a robotics program at the high school so that he could get into robotics and ran that, you know, so that's the kind of involvement I have. I try not to like overly, you know, manage your schedule, all that it's definitely what they want. And then I help them find the resources and move in that direction, but very emotionally involved with my kids and our coach is just incredible. He knows that he can just, say "this is your role, mom. You know, I talked to Coby today you've overstepped" You need to support them, you need to support them in this way. Yeah, this is the best way to support them. Not this stuff. Don't ask any of these questions ever, ever, ever, ever? Yeah, these are your questions that you can ask, this is your role in the supporting. And so I think that we've gotten there really gotten there, I, I'm very backed off, and I'm just my role is to watch his phone to make sure he goes to classes. Now that's my role.
Hannah Choi 35:24
There you go, that's great.
Jodi 35:26
His role is to have his fingers in his work, know what he's doing, you know, criticize, or whatever it is that you guys do when they don't do the right thing and help to redirect them and all that, but it's, it's, um, it's really, it's just, in the parents that I talked to, some of them are just like, well, we don't need that much. I'm like, then you don't doesn't matter. They're giving me what we need. They're gonna give you anyway. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I tell the parents, when I talk to them is like, Look, your contacts are there to hear your honest, whatever it might be. And if you're a helicopter parent, and you're doing too much your contacts are gonna say, this might be why this isn't working, it might actually be the coach, we might need to work with you a little bit, you know, or they, you might, it might not be a good match, and you don't like the communication and they'll change that. That's the great thing about you guys is you're like if there's something wrong, yeah, you'll make it work.
Hannah Choi 36:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think something that you said earlier made me think about a conversation I was just having with one of my adult clients who were talking about trust, and how, how so much of going through executive function coaching is about trust and about trusting yourself, and about trusting your coach, and just trusting the process. And like you said, in the very beginning, and which is something that I feel like I say, like a broken record is it takes a really long time. And so trusting all of the parts of it yourself and your coach and, and the process and, and the tools that you try and everything, it's and that's such a huge part of it. And ah, I forgot what I was going to say - where I was going with that. But anyway, it's a big deal.
Jodi 36:45
I have one parent who at at my son's school, who I directed to you guys who has, I don't know where she's at right now. But she had gone to the matching coach matching process. And she called me and she goes, this is how it went for me. Is this, is this how it went for you? And I said, Well, no, but when you're in that meeting, did you say, Hey, I feel like you glazed over A, B and C? And that's really important to me? Well, no, I didn't know if I could
37:39
You gotta speak up!
37:39
Yeah, be honest, the kids have to be honest, the moms have to be honest. Like all of that. Let them know how you feel. This isn't personal. At all. Yeah, if you if you don't like your contact, let let somebody know that you need to change. And this is why or talk to your contact about why you feel you're not in touch. These people are all about matching and functioning and making it work and trust, right? There's no trust, even if they're they did nothing wrong. It's just not the right match or there isn't trust. So they need to find a new person that there will be trust with and it might not have anything to do with either. Yeah. So she's like, okay, all right. I'm gonna call it that. That's better than not calling back and just walking away from it
Hannah Choi 38:30
You know, everything you're saying is just making me so glad that we're that we decided to do this podcast because it, it's it, it's showing me like how valuable hearing someone else's story is, and how that right there is such a huge part of asking for help, like what your son said, you know, like, I think I need some help. And in and reaching out and asking, like, can you tell me your story so that I can figure out like, where mine fits in, you know, and what my needs are and everything. So that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing all that.
Jodi 39:04
Yeah, of course.
Hannah Choi 39:07
I love I, I was thinking about something else that you said. And you were saying, you are really involved with your kids. And but I was thinking about how you have you, you really have had to be since the beginning with your son being diagnosed so early with ADHD. And then with your daughter becoming having such high, you know, intense medical needs. You can't you as a parent of a child with you know, those medically fragile, you you need to be involved. You know, you can't. You don't have the choice of, of being hands off. So, so it doesn't surprise me that you continue to be like that, because that's just how you have always parented and thank goodness you are because your son knew that he could go to you and say that Like, I need help, and that you recognized it that you saw it in him. And you realize, like, something's off here.
Jodi 40:08
Yeah, yeah. Well, that was worried before we even started, you know, so but yeah, like, you know, part of part of my career and in what I do, even on the side, you know, I've had a couple of friends, one whose son ended up fell down the stairs, in his 20s, you know, fell down the stairs or got a brain injury. And, you know, the system right now, especially with COVID, you know, and another friend who's, whose good friend was dying of cancer. So we have these two situations where they're in the hospital system, and nobody's giving them any information. And they think that that's okay. So it's, it's sort of the same thing, teaching them working with them as as a case manager type liaison to help get their answers and move things in the right direction, get the person with cancer discharged home, get the kid, you know, the right care, and, you know, communicate the home needs and rehab and things like that, and just educating the family. Do that with my kids, like we all. That's, that's how I roll. And that's how they roll. And everything is very, everything's very open in our family in regards to anything going on. There's there's no issue, you know, my kids will tell anybody who puts them on a podcast. So go ahead and put my son on a podcast, my mom needs to butt out. I'm just like, Look, guys, you can't go from having all these years of needing me and asking me for help, to all the sudden "Thanks a lot, we got this!" I'm like, Look, I need a transition.
Hannah Choi 41:41
Yeah, I need that too!
Jodi 41:44
I need to transition out as well. For myself, I actually have been working with a life coach, to balance myself with all the stuff going on with my kids don't my kids growing up not needing me that I'm getting all the resources, my daughter is taking over all of her own medical care. My son has a coach who's taking care of him and a therapist. So just finding that balance and finding me because me has just been helping these kids with all these needs. Yeah, who are you want to yours? Right? Yeah. And so I'm like, Well, what do I do if I'm not helping you if I'm not up in your business, and so when they're like, You got to get out of our business. So the coach is my life coach has been great. She's, she's got me to start reading again. She had me create a reading nook in my house and bedroom that's like my no phone, no TV, no, nothing. Mom's you know, and even my son will come in and he'll be like, Oh, you're already reading.
Hannah Choi 42:41
Wonderful, and how important that self care is. Right? And when we are caught up in all the busyness of, of the challenges of life. Yeah, it's it's that's like the first thing that we that I think a lot of people like, oh, and it's probably actually the last thing we should like. Right. But it's so hard. It's so hard to prioritize that. That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you. So great.
Jodi 43:07
Thanks. We're all a work in progress.
Hannah Choi 43:09
It's true. We really are. And, and I'm, I am very, I personally am very open talking about the things that I have challenges with. And I think that when you can be open like that, and recognize like, no one is perfect. And everyone needs help. In whatever form it is. It's it's so freeing. It's so freeing to just be like, Yeah, this is me.
Jodi 43:35
This is me. I'm not perfect. I need help, too. And we're all different. And that's okay.
Hannah Choi 43:41
We need to be different. Yeah, otherwise, be weird.
Jodi 43:46
Yeah, who don't want to be the same drone walking around?
Hannah Choi 43:49
Yeah. That's so great. Um, let me see. So what are you looking forward to like, for your son for yourself? For like, you know, I mean, obviously, you are thinking about yourself in the future, because you, you know, you got yourself a life coach, and you're reading again, and you know, and you're taking time for yourself, but what are you looking for forward, forward to?
Jodi 44:17
I, you know, I my, my big thing is just when, and I just started sort of looking at like, what am I you know, what does my life look like? And I think this happens with everybody who's who's empty nesting even. But for for my son and for my daughter, I mean, she is really moving in a place where she is she's really taking control of herself recognizing her deficits understanding that she can't move as fast as everybody else and she's really finding finding her place and she's gonna have challenges her whole life even if she didn't have MS. You know, so she's really going into she's really gotten herself sort of in that direction now, which is exciting. So I'm just looking forward to when my son Coby is, is doing that same thing. And he's moving in that direction. Yeah. And I think the first glimpse of it was was this past week listening to him talk to that other kid. I was like, Oh, my God, it's happening.
Hannah Choi 45:15
It's happening. It's really happening. It's happening.
Jodi 45:17
Yeah. And there's no particular like, check the box. Okay, it's been done. It's been done, I can move on. Yeah, but there they, I didn't think that it would ever be happening with him. He's just always just so I'm, is his father is a lot similar. And his father has to have a - We're divorced. But we've been divorced for a long time. So and and, he really has to have a wife and a secretary to be successful. Right? He needs the wife for the regular life stuff, and kids and everything else. And he needs the Secretary, because of the executive functioning, right? So the wife not. And so my thing is, I don't want my son to need a wife. And that's a big reason why we I would have to say, we've probably got divorced because for me, it felt like he was just lazy and wouldn't do anything. And I was doing everything right. Yeah, he needs that wife for that. And then he's the secretary. So I want my son to not need that. I want him to be able to give what he has to give to somebody without them feeling like they're, they're giving everything right, you know, and he's taking and so and I see him doing that.
Hannah Choi 46:27
I was just gonna say he's on his way to that.
Jodi 46:30
Already started that. Yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I want. And it's going there. So we're sticking we are sticking with it. I was just gonna say and he, I mean, he even has plans as much as I think one of the things that you guys always say is the point is not to stay on forever, right? The point is not to stay an executive coach with this person forever. It's to teach them the tools and let them go free. And that takes a while and parents will ask me how long does that take? Like? It's just like, my brain injuries. Everyone's different. But it's gonna take over a year. I really don't have a whole lot. Yeah, yeah. Like my son's always already like, okay, so when I've got this going, I still want to work with you on public speaking, I still want to work with you on better healthy lifestyles and activities. And so he's already planning. When I'm perfect. This is what we're gonna work on next.
Hannah Choi 47:25
So he's really thinking into the future for himself, too, which is so that's so beautiful. Yeah, I love that. How wonderful. Yeah, I have, like I mentioned before, when before we started recording, I'm my I'm coming up on four years with one of my clients, and she's in eighth grade. Now, I started working with her when she was in fourth grade. And with my, the session we had on Monday, it was just like the entire session was this gift of all of these things that that I have been working with her on over the years. And she just like, did all the things. Like she tried something new, and she was gonna ask your teacher for help. And she, she, like, breathe. She like we're working on breathing before, like during taking a test because she rushes through tests. And she told me, I breathed before every question. And she said, you know, that was the easiest science test I've ever taken. I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah. And it's, I mean, yeah, it's taken a long time for us to get there. But it's just so wonderful seeing her taking these skills that she's learning. And she's already thinking about, well, how can I apply them in the future? And that he's doing that too. It's just
48:40
You've like, just turned a leaf. It's like you, and there's possible you'll roll back or whatever?
Hannah Choi 48:46
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jodi 48:47
And how lucky she is to have had you for four years at that age.
48:51
How lucky am I? Oh, my gosh. It's just she is lodged in my heart, man. She's just she's just such an amazing person. I'm actually going to be interviewing her mom in a couple of weeks. And it's just yeah, it's it's beautiful to see as a coach, and I imagine that your son's coach has has had a similar emotional experience watching him, you know, just to go through what he's gone through. And how long has I can't remember if you said this before, but how long have they been coaching together?
Jodi 49:25
I think we're just we're we're close to a year where I think we're just under a year because he it was after he made it through three quarters. Right. So finals are this week of the third quarter. So that took me a couple of weeks to find you guys so so we're coming very close to just a year just to your he's got a lot of work ahead of him. Yeah. So you know and is Coach isn't going anywhere. I'm not gonna let him go on and Yeah, yeah, they have such a respect. You know, like there's there's such a respect I'm just I, what we've seen in a year how hard, it's so hard for him still, but I just can't say this enough where he's come already, you know, you could look at him on a big global and be like, he hasn't really gotten anywhere. But that's just not true. He's off academic probation, he didn't get suspended. He, you know, like those, that's a big deal. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 50:19
And, you know, you mentioned in the beginning confidence and how, like, that comes up all the time, parents will say, you know, like, I just want my child to feel more confident. And I think I think feeling better about your own executive function skills makes you just just just naturally you feel more confident. Like I know, for myself, like I told you in the beginning, I have terrible memory. And and I used to not use a planner, or anything, I wouldn't, I would just like occasionally write have to do no to do lists and write stuff down. But I would just try to rely on my terrible memory. And yeah, it was like, not a great decision.
51:00
That would stress me out so much. I have to write everything down.
Hannah Choi 51:03
Yeah, now I'm like obsessively checking my planner. But when I went, I guess when I was in grad school, like when I was in college in high school and grad school, then I wrote I did I kept a planner during then. But then I think I just thought, like, Oh, I'm not in school anymore. So I don't have to have a planner anymore. But, but my confidence, just like went down the toilet. Because I just started thinking, Oh, well, I'm just like, not a good friend. And I'm not a good partner, because I'm forgetting these things. And then I realized, wait, I just need to write them down. And then I'm not gonna forget them anymore. And, and it, it gave me my confidence back. And so for kids who, especially for kids who have challenges in many executive function areas, you can you can imagine how that would erode your confidence pretty darn quick.
Jodi 51:53
You're a failure every minute of the day. Yeah, no matter what you do, every minute of the day, he was a failure. That's what I had me crying when I was listening to other podcasts. Yeah, he was basically a failure constantly. And then he started lying. Because, right. He's failing. And so it gets you off his back for totally. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 52:10
You know, it's a protective a protective action. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And, and like he said, You can't lie. That's so wonderful. So he went from lying to saying, like, you can't lie. Yeah, that's great. Not doesn't mean he's still not going to. And this is a kid who used to never be able to lie. He had the worst face. Everybody could tell, you know, he got good at it as he got further into high school. And it was a skill. But yeah, I mean, not to say he's not going to do it. But I'm just like, Oh, my God, keep the kids coming for him to talk to because the more he says this out, yes, the more he'll stop before he does it. Because it's, you know, it's being repeated. And it's being shared. And it's, what if that kid calls him back later? Because he said, you have my number anyway. I Yeah. And if it's a year from now, give me a call if you need me. What's he gonna say? I don't lie to my coach the whole year. No, I Yeah. I lied to you, too. You know, just kidding. Yeah, I think, I think, like when I think about my client that I've been working with for four years, and I think about the messages that I've given to her over the years, and it's taken a really long time for those to sink in. And I think like, like how you said that you want that you hope that he, you know, continues to have those conversations with those kids, and continues to say that, because I think whether we tell ourselves the same message over and over again, or someone else tells it like someone that we trust, and that we that doesn't sound like nagging or whatever, that eventually it does sink in, and it does, you know, it you like, like she said to me, because I've always said to her, you know, where we're just, you know, if you can do these things, it will make your life easier, you know, things won't be so hard. And, and we've, you know, we've been saying that for I've been saying that for years to her. And she said to me on Monday night, while school is still boring, but it's so much easier. Oh, yeah.
Jodi 54:15
That is like, that is like the moment where you just celebrate.
Hannah Choi 54:19
Yeah, and you'd but I think just you have to hear it. You have to hear it from yourself. And you have to hear it from the people around you that you trust again and again. And I think that's kind of why coaching takes so long is because it just takes a long time for those message for you to like truly believe those messages. And then once you believe them, you have to put actions with them.
Jodi 54:40
Right? Right. Once you're like wait, it works. Now you have to make that intention happen over and over.
54:46
Yeah, and now he's got all this great evidence that he can do things. And so when he does slide back, which he will I mean, we all do you know, like even you and executive function Master, I'm sure there are times where you're like, Oh, I really screwed that up. You know? Oh, yeah, yeah, we're not
Jodi 55:07
Because all the things you don't prioritize, like, whatever. And you know, afterwards you're like, I knew better. Yeah, I knew better. But in the moment, it felt easier.
Hannah Choi 55:17
Yeah, I'm so glad that's just such a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing today and for sharing with the other parents, I'm sure that you have, you know, made such a difference in, like, if you think about if you can change one parent or not change one parent, but give one parent the confidence to hook their kid up with a coach. And then, and then that kid then has the success that their son is experiencing? And then he then goes on and talks to someone else. Like, that's wonderful. Like, how many ripples that we create?
55:54
So yeah, so many ripples. Yeah, yeah, in, in that whole point is just parents get definitely some of the ones I've been talking to. And you've obviously probably talked to them too, like, some of the timeline is really a focus for some of them. And I'm like,
Hannah Choi 56:09
Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, it's expensive. It's, you know, it's definitely not like a, but, you know, I just said to someone the other day, actually a friend of mine, who was who is interested in, in coaching, and, you know, we were talking about how it's, it's actually it's an investment, it is very expensive, but it's an investment that will not stop paying off when you're done it, you know, it will continue to pay off. I mean, I know myself just like, being a coach, like I have, I don't have great executive function skills, but I have I have been able to, you know, I know, like a ton of strategies, I know what works for me. And, and I continue to see, like, how challenging it is to keep them keep up with it. But how, in doing in doing it, and in improving my own executive function skills, how it has such a positive impact on all aspects of my life. And it's just so great.
Jodi 57:10
So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I and him talking to the kids. I mean, I just can't, like, you're right. It's the Pay It Forward, just keeps going and keeps going. And if one parent joins and sticks with it, and does it, and the financial piece of it, is it I'm a single mom in, in, my son goes to a private engineering school. And we don't get any financial aid. Well, like I he gets loans. I happen to make just enough money, that we don't get to get any financial aid.
57:45
Yeah, so you're like, right in between?
57:47
Yeah, exactly. So you know, it's, it's, it's a struggle to pay it. But the reality is, you know, my daughter's treatment is like, $300,000, twice a year. And it's covered by insurance, right? Yeah. But if it wasn't covered by insurance, I would be in debt up to my ears, because she can't be your brain can't be decompensating, she's 22 years old. So you know, I feel the same about my son, you know, some for a period of time, it was a huge struggle. And sometimes I get caught up and I, the coach, might his coach knows that the extra time is always approved. He never would have used extra time with my son and it's always on like, you need extra day you need to, it's always approved. So you know, for me, there is no dollar amount I could put on my child and you can't always say that, you know, you can only come up with so much money, right? Right. Yep. But it is expensive. But I if you can make ends meet and make it happen, it's worth it. In the end, lots of time, sometimes lots of pain, lots of patience and lots of money, but it will always keep paying it forward for your kid or for yourself, always.
Hannah Choi 59:08
So that's it for today. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful and something that resonated with you and Jodi's story. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to the resources and tools I mentioned. Thanks for listening
“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” - Thomas Edison
Some of my favorite readings on the topics I covered in today’s episode on managing failure.
Reframing Failure as a Success
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Permission to Feel by Marc Brackett, PhD
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How Reframing Your Failures Will Actually Bring Success from LifeHack
Self-Talk
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Third Person Self-Talk Is An Effective Way To Reduce Anxiety And Regulate Emotions
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4 Ways to Stop Beating Yourself Up, Once and For All
Thinking Like a Scientist
Atomic Habits by James Clear
What Are You Measuring in Your Life?
7 Habits That Can Help You Think Like a Scientist
Transcript
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
And today we're asking the question, how can we manage our feelings when we think we failed. So as you heard in the intro, I'm going to talk about failure today. Failure is something I think we can all say we've experienced. And as you'll see, in today's episode, the main message I want you to take away from this is that when you try something new, and it doesn't work out the way you expected or wanted to, you're not failing, you have not failed. If you try something in your EF coaching journey, and it doesn't work for you, you haven't failed, your coach hasn't failed. If you try something that I suggest in this podcast, and it doesn't work for you, you haven't failed. And the same goes for me. Creating this podcast is a risk, right? I'm taking a chance that I will fail to make something that is useful for people. But if I say something that you don't like, or you try something and it doesn't work for you, I haven't failed. I've just found an opportunity to try to find something else that might work.
Of course, this totally sounds Pollyanna ish, right? It's way easier said than done. If everything we tried worked, or we all felt totally fine with failure. I wouldn't be here talking about this today. EF coaches, therapists we they wouldn't have jobs. We'd all be on some tropical island drinking pina coladas and getting our feet massaged. Wait a second. Okay, nevermind. Sorry. That's just my dream.
Okay, back to reality, talking about failure. Okay, so what's the definition of failure? If you look online, or in a dictionary, you'll find something along the lines of a lack of success, or the inability to meet an expectation. So this definition might be the same for everyone. But how failure feels is going to be different. And as EF coaches, we often find that many people, when they first start on their coaching journey, are already feeling stressed about failing. We noticed a strong connection between failure and executive function challenges. Maybe we've labeled ourselves or maybe our children have been labeled as disorganized, or forgetful or bad at planning. But the way that I see it, is that you or your child just hasn't found the strategy that works best yet.
So if you're in coaching right now, or actually, if you're just a human being, you might already be feeling sensitive to the idea of failing. And maybe that's why you decided to listen to me today about talk about failure. So I'm going to share some ideas for managing this so called failure, as we always say, in coaching, small steps lead to big changes. So please don't feel any pressure to like, dive right into any of these strategies. Maybe just try one, or even just part of one, or maybe just think about it, write it down somewhere, tell someone you're thinking about it. I'm really not asking for a big commitment at all, just hear me out and maybe give something a shot in whatever way like feels right to you right now. There are a ton of different ways to manage how we react to failure. And I really don't want to overwhelm you. That's not what I'm here for.
So I've chosen three to cover today than those are reframing your failure as a success, self talk, and thinking like a scientist, these three strategies are kind of all interconnected. And trying one will often naturally just involve one or both of the others. So I'll do my best to explain each one. And like I just said, you can try them out and see what sticks.
Okay, so first up reframing. So you may have heard the quote by Thomas Edison, he said, I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. So instead of seeing failure as a lack of success, like the dictionary says, try to see it as that you successfully found a way that doesn't work. So last week, I was working with an adult client of mine who has a strategy that he uses to manage his anxiety about the week to come. So on Sunday night, he takes some time to look over and plan for the upcoming week. He has a bullet journal. So he writes down his appointments and his classes and for the work for his job. And last week, he didn't do this. He got busy, and he just decided that he wasn't going to do it. And as his coach, I was glad that he hadn't done it. And so we did some reflection in our session. We meet Monday mornings, so it was good timing. But we did some reflection and saw how and he saw how effective that Sunday night planning actually is. So So technically, this was a failure, right? He did not meet his expectation of Sunday night planning, but not doing it was actually super informative for him. So if we can change our view to see these failures as actually highly valuable, it can be so beneficial. It's hard work. I'm not saying it's easy, it is hard work to do this. But if you can try it, you might end up actually end up like being more open to new ideas than you ever thought you would be. So get excited when it fails. I kind of think there's almost more value in discovering what doesn't work than what does. I believe that we learn more about ourselves. And we're really forced to think creatively, right? The strategies that we end up using after we failed are more solid, because they're built from your response to what didn't work, a strategy that you try and works on the first time, I don't think is as rock solid, because you haven't encountered any variables that will test it. So failing, while trying new strategies in the end, I think makes it more durable system that can survive long term.
That being said, if you do find something that works for you, on your first try, that's awesome is so great. Just know that it might not always be there for you, it might not always work, just depending on what's going on in your life. And that's totally okay. I really like to think that these strategies that we know work for us but aren't currently working for us, are just patiently waiting. They're waiting for us when we're ready to go back to them. So keep that in mind.
All right, so next up self talk. So you can combine the reframing strategy that I just covered with self talk, and self talk, is the thoughts or the speech that we direct towards ourselves. So, you know, I know you know what this is when you talk to yourself either out loud or in your head. So and it can be positive and motivational? Like, yes, I did this, I can do this. I'm great at this. Or it can end up being negative. Oh, why did I choose that? Oh, I'm so stupid. So there are some strategies for managing this one that surprised me as being actually super useful for myself. And I really hope you guys try this, because I was really surprised at how well it worked for me, is talking to myself and the third person. And they've done research on this. And they found that it's actually super effective, it helps put a little distance between what you're saying and yourself. And it kind of separates out some of the emotions that are tied up in that self talk. And so for myself, and my own experience, I find that like motivational self talk is way more effective when I refer to myself as a third person, when I'm motivating myself with self talk. So for example, I'm a runner, and I'm not a fast runner. And when I'm trying to get myself going, I used to say I can do this, I can keep going and I recently changed it to Hannah, you can do this, Hannah, you can keep going. And I realized it's kind of like someone's on the sidelines, like on the sidewalk watching the race. And they're calling that out to me. And it just feels more motivating than me just telling myself that. So give it a shot, see what you think. I also find that it can help cut down on negative self talk. So like if I say to myself, ah, you know, why did I make that stupid decision or whatever. If I had said to me, if I say to myself, Hannah, why did you make that stupid decision, I realized I would never see that to another human being, you know, I would never use that word towards them. And I wouldn't ever talk like that with with someone else. So referring to myself in the third person has really cut back on negative self talk. So naming how you feel in your self talk can also be really helpful. So, you know, saying, I'm feeling very angry right now. Or Hannah, I think you're feeling very angry right now. So give it a shot, email me or send me a message and tell me what you think.
All right, next up, thinking like a scientist. This is one of my favorite strategies, and I really love working on this with my clients. So approaching something new by thinking like a scientist and approaching the new thing like an experiment. It lowers the stakes, it can be kind of fun. We know experiments often fail. All the things that have been invented in the world didn't magically work the first time. So these failures led the scientists to figure out what might work next time, it gives it gave them really useful information. So if we think like this, when we're trying new things, it can help us develop really great strong strategies. Another coach that I work with has this strategy that she uses with her clients when they're setting their weekly commitments. So if you're not familiar with executive function coaching with Beyond BookSmart, we have weekly commitments that we give our clients. So these are like a goal that they're working on for the week. Instead of calling it a weekly commitment, she calls it a weekly experiment, which like I said before, lowers the stakes, makes it feel less, makes it feel just less serious.
So trying something new is really important, right? So we have to get brave to try the new thing. But I believe the most important thing, the most valuable thing that we can do after we try the new thing is to reflect on it after you try. So when scientists run experiments, they don't just run the experiment, and then run it again. They ask questions. Why ask why get curious? Why did this happen? How did it feel? Did you notice anything? What worked about it? Most importantly, what didn't work about it.
So those are the three that I'm covering today, as you'll hear me say, over and over again, in pretty much every episode, that change is super hard, it takes a long time. And it's going to be filled with many of these so called failures. So to manage this, it can help to accept that it takes time, it can help to reframe these failures as a positive thing. And also reach out for help, whether it's from your executive function Coach, your friend, their mom on the playground, after school, your running buddy, whoever you know, will be there for you can be really helpful. If you do have a coach, that is a great person to support you through these new changes, of course, these new strategies that you're trying, it's really nice to have someone acknowledge your effort, you have someone going through the journey with you, it's also having that outside observer and that person is holding space for you, in this judgment free zone, have a coaching session, you know, they're not going to get upset with you. If you try something and it doesn't work, they're going to be excited for you. So take advantage of your coach, take advantage of the person in your life that you have that can support you, you know, as you learn and grow and find what works for you and discover what doesn't work for you. And then through that, find out what does.
I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode, I am now going to listen back on it and probably find a bunch of things I wish I had explained more clearly. Or I'll remember another idea that I should have included, but I'm not going to beat myself up about it. And if I do, I'm going to talk about it in third person. And I'm gonna write down those ideas that I forgot and I'll be sure to include them in a future episode. So that's it for today. I'm so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen. Be sure to check out the show notes for each episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening
Transcript
Hello, and welcome everybody to the very first episode of Focus Forward, executive function podcast. My name is Hannah Choi, and I am so glad to be your host as we embark on this journey of executive function improvement together. Before we dive into what this podcast is all about, I thought you might want to know a little bit about who the heck you're listening to. I am an executive function coach for Beyond BookSmart. And I have been coaching people since 2017. I live in Connecticut with my family. And if I'm not coaching, you'll probably either find me at my sewing machine or doing something fun outside.
If you're listening to this, you might already know the term executive function. But just in case you're not familiar with it, or you want a little refresher, I'll explain it briefly. Our executive functions are these mental skills that we use to get through each day, with greater or less success depending on where our strengths and challenges lie. For example, I'm awesome at time management and prioritizing, but my memory is horrible. Guys, it's really bad. My husband, on the other hand, has no idea what time it is ever, or how long anything will take. But he is way more organized than anyone else I know. Luckily, we make a really good pair.
Executive function is a bit of a mouthful, so we usually call it EF for short. So when you hear me refer to it as EF, you'll know what I mean. So about the podcasts, some episodes will be a quick bite, a small introduction to a topic related to executive functions. I'll offer some suggestions for strategies, maybe something you can try in your own life if you're feeling up to it. Other episodes will be more of a deep dive into habits and behaviors and the nature of transformative thinking. I'll interview some parents whose children have gone through or are currently working with an executive function coach, I'll chat with college and adult clients who have a coach still or who have graduated from EF coaching. And I'll check in with them and see how they're doing. I'll ask some executive function experts to talk about their own experiences and share what works for them.
Some of you may be working with an executive function coach yourself. And some of you may be the parent or guardian of a young person in coaching. Or maybe you just stumbled across this podcast and you're wondering what the heck executive functions are. Whatever situation you're in, listen to these episodes to pick up tips, strategies and more support for you or your child's executive function skill development journey.
Something I've been working on myself is getting better at asking for help, and being open to new ideas. So as hard as it has been for me to seek help, I do have to say that my life is richer for it. So kudos to you for listening, for being open to new ideas and asking for help in whatever form that is for you. If you get anything out of these podcasts, I hope that it's that you remember that change is really, really hard. And it can take a really, really long time. Being gentle with yourself, and your child can be a really helpful place to start. We're all just doing our best right? Having a coach for some support is an effective way to make change in your life. But you can do this even if you're working on improving your executive function skills without a coach. Consider what your priorities and your goals are. Find strategies that resonate with you and work on them consistently and thoughtfully.
Personally, I am super excited to be hosting this podcast. Just because I'm an EF coach does not mean I have stellar executive functions. I have to work daily to support my own EF challenges. So I am super excited to see what I'm going to learn on this podcast journey. And this is a podcast for everybody. Whether you're part of the Beyond book smart family or not, I am just so glad you're here and you're taking time out of your day to listen, thank you. Be sure to check out the show notes for each episode on our website, and subscribe at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools that we mentioned. Thanks for listening everybody. Bye