Framed Perspective

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In this conversation, we discuss the concept of Black Nihilism. We dive into what it means and how we can use it to better understand all that is happening around us today.

We also list numerous resources where you can learn more.

Resources

List of resources mentioned in this episode:

Orlando Patterson quote from this Afro-pessimist Wikipedia page

Algorithms of Oppression book by Professor Safiya Noble

Paper critiquing Noble's work: Black Feminist Musings on Algorithmic Oppression

Safiya Noble's Twitter thread about the paper

Coates and Obama Interview 1

Coates and Obama Interview 2

Coates and Obama Interview 3

Coates and Obama Interview 4

Tightrope: Americans Reaching for Hope, by Nicholas D. Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn

Dr. Claude Anderson

Nordic Model

William Barber

bell hooks - Oppositional Gaze concept

About Framed Perspective: Recorded Conversations

These recorded conversations started as a way to explore the idea of what does it mean to be Black in the 2020s. The conversations are meant to explore this topic connecting pre-slavery history with all that has happened throughout the diaspora up to present day. The hope is that these conversations will spark deeper dives into these topics both for us the hosts and the listeners. Recorded Conversations is hosted by Duane Rollins, a Native Black (descendant of slaves) and Victor Udoewa, a descent of Nigerian immigrants.

(Really) Rough Transcript

SPEAKERS

Victor Udoewa, Duane Rollins

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Victor Udoewa 0:02

I have it. Actually, I'm not as familiar with the, the framing of it from that perspective. So I've, the term that I've, I've come across and in conversations on things like that is Afro pessimism, and I noticed you said after idealism some I'm curious about what afro-nihlism necessarily means if it's the same as Afro pessimism or where you've seen it, but I can talk about Afro pessimism and maybe we mean the same thing.

Duane Rollins 0:36

We might mean the same thing but as I was looking at afro-nihlism is that notion that due to the structures of anti black racism that for a lot of black people life just has no meaning and no point. Right. So it involves some of this pessimism right around now is nothing we can do to really change right anti blackness. Therefore, life has no meaning. Right, existence might not matter, like, an assassin is the way of the defeated mind. Right, or the defeated existence in that, you know, no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, no matter how good you are, how smart you know how much integrity you have, there's always going to be the sense of somebody tearing you down or taking something from you because of it so why even work hard, while even like kind of go through with trying to achieve. Because no matter what if you do achieve like it'll all just be stripped away. Once you, you know really build something that's like meaningful. So like nothing matters.

Victor Udoewa 1:54

Okay, yeah, that sounds like the same thing. I mean, I would add that in Afro pessimism. Another way maybe, maybe a more simple way of thinking about it is that it's a view that holds that the position that African Americans have had in slavery days is fundamentally unchanged. Right, so they're still viewed as they were in those days. And it's a view that I guess kind of is what you were implying has no hope. So it's kind of funny that the people that I know that are, that have that come from that perspective of viewpoint, or at least that talk about explicitly academics, right, they're professors. They're scholars. But when I think about in popular writing right are popular speakers who might write a popular books. The most prominent Afro pessimist I know, I think would be Tallahassee coats. And what's interesting about it when I think about it. Every time I've seen him on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every time I've seen him on whatever the show is called that's hosted by Stephen Colbert, and it was called The Tonight Show or the show. The last question that Trevor Noah and Stephen Colbert always ask him is, and they'll say it's like okay well I always ask you every time you come on here I just want to check Do you have any hope. And that's what I kind of thought it was interesting, I mean I knew why they asked that because when you read his writing it puts you down like you don't feel good. Right. Um, but I didn't know he was actually like an entire perspective shared amongst a lot of people that it became named that talks about this extreme type of despair about the situation that it is fundamentally unchanged and it never will, for many of them change. So yeah, that's another way of saying that the position that there has is every day is the same.

Duane Rollins 3:55

Yeah. And what I will note about it, is that when they talk about Afro realism or black realism. It generally is referring to blacks in America from a lot of the work. Debt like I was reading and they go all the way back to. Invisible Man right that book, and the notion that is a black man is like a nameless character. Right, throughout this entire light book, his journey his struggle is not really being seen. Right. and there's another aspect of it too, particularly in a black feminist moment or black woman is movement where their gender is not necessarily seen, apart from their blackness. Right, so it's like blacks almost neutral like you're black and it's quote unquote bad, Right. And you're treated a certain way because you're black, gender aside. Now there's other things that happened because of you know different genders that you know i think you know warrants a much deeper like more nuanced conversation but the idea is that even your gender is like, you know, not as considered and you might, you know, look at you know, black masculinity and some of the things that we talked about. There's also having this you know pervasive way of saying like, it doesn't matter. Right, like, you know what what is happening to you, or you know what you can achieve doesn't matter. But I will note that it seems to be much more of a black American thing than the black immigrant experience.

Victor Udoewa 5:34

Yeah,

I do hear you on that I was at the National, I think it's called the National Black convention. I think it's, I feel like it's the first attempt but maybe I just don't mind history. But anyway, they brought it, they at least restarted it or it started last year it's only 20. Anyways virtual. And there was one section on it, that hit me related to what you're talking about and it was about immigrants. So this person, and I can share we can share the video link later in the

resources. What did a short talk it might have been less than five minutes but about the difference between immigrant experiences in the US. And so I didn't, I didn't know right because in the US we talk a lot

about the Latin American immigrant experience, right, we think about initiatives like DACA whether people afford against it you know it's it's mainly focused on those people. I'm in DC one of the biggest immigrant communities, the two biggest are Ethiopia and El Salvador. But we talked about the status of El salvadorians, and unnecessarily building. But this woman in this video. During this national bank convention last year in 2020, was saying that, even as immigrants, the immigrants who are most discriminated who are more likely to have a bad experience more likely to be treated unfairly are the black immigrants is really an interesting I didn't, I didn't realize this, because of the closest that we have the border we show in Mexico and Central America, so I'll definitely share that. but even if even though Afro pessimism Afro realism is focused on African Americans, I think because of the confines of the fact that we're in America that some of those effects may spill over to even immigrants, even though they're not African Americans but they're here within the American context, seen as similar. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah.

Duane Rollins 7:37

Yeah. And I should note that Invisible Man is it really captures some of this idea of like black journalism, but it really is a conversation about contemplating the meaning of life, not necessarily that there is no meaning, like at all, so it sits on the opposite end and in terms of the book is the archetype for black existentialism, but black middle ism, you can kind of see some of that in the book if you just think about being like nameless, right, or invisible like in society doesn't matter. But yeah, it's a, it's like a, like a heavy subject by yeah and i will say like, like one It seems like it's in the realm of academics. It really exploring and or philosophers right exploring and thinking about concepts of blackness and what it means to be black in America and how to move us forward. But one way that the notion of black male ism has been rejected was with the election of Obama who literally ran on a campaign of hope. Yeah, right, which is a fundamentally like a rejection of that. But it goes back to that point I was saying that some of the black nihilism is different because it is. He did come from an immigrant. Right. And so his perspective might also have been waived by that and being of mixed race might also have changed like some of the ways that he views on those things but it is this notion of like, how does hope play versus, hey, these people are anti blackness is anti blackness you aren't really going to change it. So, a lot of times it feels like you're screaming in a whale. Right, or you're screaming at a wall and nobody's going to hear you, that doesn't really matter.

Victor Udoewa 9:33

The set of interviews I think it's for three or four interviews by the Atlantic. I can't remember what year was done in but it was Ta-Nehisi Coates, who I would call them Afro pessimists interviewing, President Obama who I would call Afro optimist I don't know what to call them. So just like what you said, and it's really interesting because you can see, you can see Ta-Nehisi like in his mind struggling to understand this guy like he's like but but but didn't you. Did you think that maybe you weren't gonna win or did you think that it was impossible. And I was like no I, you know, I grew up why people, you know, always had, you know, I feel like everyone has a bit same basic wants and desires and needs, and it's so interesting to see kind of the stuff that goes on and in Takahashi's mind, and from the questions that he's given from growing up in Baltimore, in tough and rough neighborhoods, compared to Obama who grew up, Indonesia some part of his life Hawaii, other parts of his life. Yeah, it's just fascinating so I think we should add that into links so you can see kind of the two perspectives and conversation. Because he has this inherent optimism and ultimately leaves, it leads to different types of policy implications. I won't go too much into it but the whole debate, I think, in policies, what do you do about the black situation right. A lot of black people want you to do what might be called pro black policies do stuff that helps uplift the most vulnerable black communities communities of color, etc. Focus on the people that need help. And what Obama tried to do. Maybe because he didn't think that could pass was what's called Universalist policies, I'm just going to do something as General. And by nature of it helping you know, for people, it'll help poor black people or poor, you know, Latin x people or poor immigrant whatever. And the question is, does that work, you know what, where's the efficacy what's most effective kind of thing so it's interesting because it leads to this kind of policy implications.

Duane Rollins 11:46

Yeah, and you're seeing this play out from the people who say, Obama didn't do anything for black people or pushing that even further. Obama actually harmed black people like with his approach to Universal Life policies, and that things are so much worse for black people because of Obama and under Obama. And if you look at like some of his like starches like critics, right, and I don't think none of it actually falls in that category of being a staunch critic of Obama i think he kind of looks at the situation around it and is very critical of like the context in which these things happen. But if you look at, you know, maybe like Cornel West, and some of the comments and strong comments he had around how Obama was hurtful and detrimental to blacks, and then Dr Claude Anderson, right is also a very very very like staunch like Obama did nothing for black people or again. Even worse, Obama was actually harmful to black people right and I think they follow up more on that nihlism side versus, you know the optimists right or the people who are like more hopeful about the future and how things can change for black folks. Yeah,

Victor Udoewa 13:10

and I think that that might lead to why there is a pessimism because you can't. I don't think you could have been a pessimist. Right. Like, I saw I saw an interview of Ta-Nehisi Coates because he didn't you mentioned him in front of what it was, it was an interview of Ta-Nehisi he was in France, he was being interviewed by a French magazine and someone asked him something along the lines of what we're talking about. And he said, You know, I can't be the president. Yeah, for recognition acknowledgement of the fact that the position that he comes from doesn't allow society at least a predominantly white society to vote for it, right. He's a Cornel West can be president, right, because the position that Cornel West is occupying, I think, in my perspective is Victor talking now is a prophetic one right he's, he's coming out as speaking truth to power I don't have any problems with what he said, Now whether or not he should have said it in public or, you know, etc. I kind of I see him as a critic but I do see him as what I would call a critical supporter if that if that exists, but it. When you say things as they are and people don't think that they are like that they don't think that our country's like that, it's very hard to get elected. So, in order to have to get elected you kind of have to have a bit more of this is great or we can get along or integration or reconciliation or etc etc. But if you come out and say something like, hey there is no reconciliation without liberation. Right. It just makes it very difficult, which I think can feel the pessimistic perspective because it's like, well, if I can't say truth, and be in a position the truth, lead me to a position of power that it means everyone who's in power is is one that's not at least telling the full truth or, you know, or doing enough, right, it's kind of a cycle so it's it's it's weird but then some of that some of the incrementalist would like but, but that's what you need you need someone who can who can bring in white people just enough to get in power, and then begin to make incremental steps so people like no incremental ism doesn't work especially from like a trans black feminist perspective right radical was the word I was missing like a radical black feminist perspective, abolition is where it's at right the form isn't enough it isn't doing enough whether you're talking about capitalism, the prison industrial complex, what we call democracy etc It isn't doing enough and so they want to dismantle it and then reimagine it so I think that it leads to that cycle, because I think if you, if you speak the way some of these Afro pessimist speak is very difficult to, to be elected.

Duane Rollins 15:51

And I think we're also seeing this kind of play out and largest society when it comes to America this idea of nihilism like does any of this stuff actually matter, right, because we're looking at, you know, Trump, both his, his rhetoric, some of his policies. And the way that he acted, and then some people who previously were these moral or at least they had these stances of being like high morals and like high integrity, but then they allow somebody who was not that to be who they champion. Right, and was clearly not that right not like, Oh, this is just my opinion it was like well he kind of like proved himself, over and over again to not be that way. Yeah, now you have like again Lindsey Graham where you know again during the Clinton trials he was the first one like hey like family values these things matter and now all of a sudden they seem to not matter. Um in ways that don't add up right he's like spirit of democracy. Right. Yes, and I think a lot of people are like becoming disillusioned with the both the idea of the American dream. Right. And the idea of America, being in charge, right we're being leaders are being models, right that others should follow because they're seeing the warts, like of it all and the hopefulness around it isn't there. I think that's one of the biggest crises crisis that Biden and his administration are really going to have to like face right is can you get people to be hopeful and actually care and understand that, you know, what we have is something that's worth like keeping it working because right now everybody's looking like, I don't know if this is working at all like, I think Vita has taken a more like pro black policy stance and corporations are taking a pro black, you know, you know attitude towards how they're going out and doing their business, and we'll see how that what that leads to.

Victor Udoewa 18:02

Yeah. I mean, I might say that it can be helpful right to get to that point, right if you if you if you can't first realize what is happening, and grieve it right lament it and be like, oh gosh this is this is rough This is crazy. You can't address it. So, even if you're the decision, you know some people might go the route of okay it's an addressable and others might go the route of okay we can address it you first got to get to the point that oh this is here it exists. So from that perspective, it's a good thing for people to come to that place. The question is, I think, when you get to the afro pessimism app from nihlism is, has there been. That's the key question hasn't been progress. And so you know some people say yeah there's been progress, and maybe there has been, and then some people would say I think some of the pessimists are near this would say, Well, I feel like it's still here is changing forms. Right. And in that the reform movement seems not to be able to segment to put a hold on it to extinguish it to diminish it, it's just more managing it and squeezing it so that, it, it, it gets away and becomes in a different form. So it's a tough thing like I. Another resource I think we should add I was looking at there's a there's a paper by a first year graduate student, I think she's a black, black student I don't, I don't know, but a first year graduate student wrote a paper presented it at a conference, and it critiqued the book called algorithms of oppression the algorithms of oppression was a milestone book, when it came out by Dr. Professor noble, right, who talks about how it's built into the algorithms that you find at Google, but any of these other companies Twitter, Facebook, are the biases of the Cubs right so if you say Black Girls, and then it starts doing predictive text, you'll see all kinds of crazy stuff. You know what I mean. And so groundbreaking thing and she's like we got to do work to try to improve this and make this better yada yada yada. This book this paper that recently came out, it's a it's a conference paper. So she was given a talk at a conference wrote in a paper and then spoke. By this, graduate student basically critiqued it again coming from this kind of black radical feminist perspective which is like reform, you can't reform this thing. You can't reform the bias, out of these algorithms, out of these companies. How long have we been talking about the pipeline How long are we talking about diversity, equity inclusion. Nothing is happening. What we need is as a more of an abolitionist perspective that built into the very nature of, of, of algorithms etc is bias and we need other ways of of reimagining how to, to get information and navigate the information within this world, etc. So, Professor noble felt really. I feel like she felt her, because she went on Twitter and said, Wow, I just got told by some first year, I don't think she's at first aggressive and but someone said my work, wasn't good enough or radical enough and then it was weird because she was using her power. She has a following she's a professor she's well known as a huge. This book is huge. To gather support people like oh that that graduate student is wrong, or they're new they just don't know why do people have to come in academia and the only way they think they can rise up is to tear someone down yada yada yada. And you'll see when we share, I will share the Twitter thread as well that I think. Professor Nova was missing the that she doesn't come from a perspective that is an abolitionist perspective so she, I think misunderstands what it means. Like I don't think it was a personal takedown I just think it's it's it's just the first few graduates coming from, from a perspective that saying reforms, often don't work that built into the reform is a way of managing the system right, a type of greenwashing where you do the bad on one hand, and then you say I'm doing some good, some of the profits you make from that and you know I mean so it was just really really interesting to me. But the reason I mentioned it in our conversation is that it's kind of that perspective, that's like, oh, maybe this is all for not this is a waste of time because this is a kind of reform based society, right and incrementalist based society. And if I don't think incremental ism will get us there, then what hope is there, because I'm stuck in a structure that doesn't like revolutionary change. So you just made me. You made me think of that and it's it's a hard thing to contend with whether or not I get it that I am. Maybe I'm less likely to be killed, physically. Then, if I was walking around in Jim Crow South or whatever.

But, but, is the quality of my life, fundamentally unchanged, is that is the gap in chasm the difference between mine and someone of the same income level who's white. Is that difference qualitatively, the same from from years before my options is limited by it's just, yeah. It's a tough. It's a tough thing to contend with,

Duane Rollins 23:27

it also feels to me a lot like that. The conversation is happening around insiders versus outsiders. Right, of. Can you change the system from within. Or can you only reform it from being apart from it. And what I know about this is that there's always seems to be this dichotomy or this tension or this notion that there can only be one way to approach these problems. Right. And I think the nuance of the situation is that you actually need both right in order to be effective. Right. I don't think Malcolm would have been effective without Martin and Martin would have been effective without Malcolm right and kind of the positions on both. We're tired of what's happening and one is this will never happen. And you got to have your own thing and others like integration by is the way forward. I think you kind of need both aspects of it. But the idea of defining what outcome, doing one, right, and being clear about like those goals and that's what I think about my 2020 and beyond is that we say have things got better. But the question is, like, Well, what do we actually mean by better. Yeah, right. How do we define that are we just talking about the economic perspective or are we talking about perception are we talking about the means of opportunity, because, you know, black nihlism might really states that there's no such thing as the American dream for black people because America was inherently built on racist principles to, you know, or anti black principles to keep black people from achieving that dream that dream wasn't for them. Period. Right, right, right. Black optimism says the American Dream is our dream and it's still us right and we're still pushing that forward this idea of opportunity and if you work hard, you can get ahead. Based on your own, like merit and wishing, how this plays out in so many different conversations around. You know Equity and Inclusion right and the best ways to really approach that and, and again it's the same. You could say it's the same conversations that were happening in the 50s and 60s and 70s, even when you were thinking integration versus you know segregation and were we better off when it was just our communities together, versus us being integrated.

Victor Udoewa 25:54

Yeah I read a book. Sorry I didn't read it but I went to a talk by an author, it was a book talk, and I thought it was really insightful, what he said he wasn't specifically thinking about black people he was just thinking about the differences between the UK and the US, the book is specifically about the economic situation and economic dream in American Dream here in the US, but he made a statement about because he's a British guy, about the difference between British people and us people. He said, you know, in the UK, people know that there's limited. And for some people, no social mobility. Right. They are born into a class and that's the class they're going to die in. He said in the US. The same is true, but people don't know that. Like it somehow they've been told about a dream. That is achievable and attainable but for some reason the structures that keep us in our place are invisible to them so they don't realize that it actually is attainable and sometimes I think what happens like in the Obama cases, people often oftentimes, white, white people or predominately white groups will measure the possibility by the exception. Right. Look at that person because that was so without saying, Wait a minute, why am I using the exception what's indicative where's the average where's the medium what like what's going on. And so it was a really insightful comment I remember at that talk and I can share the book and resource as well, that we, we kind of don't know if that structure is invisible it gives it all the more its power to written is a really great book that talks about the structure called caste, the origins of content. Excellent. But I can't say enough about the book but really speaks to that, how we have this kind of race based caste system but also she differentiates caste from class from race. Because race is malleable there are times when certain people weren't considered white, as you know, and then they became white retired Jews slobs Irish Italians. When they came over to the US. But, but the caste structure of the dhanak has the lowest caste, which, which is occupied by black people, it has always been kind of in place even till today. So, it's a, it's really really interesting, the visibility, it gives us power.

Duane Rollins 28:19

Yeah, I think we are in a very very unique time today. Yeah, yeah, where we're at, is more visibility into that caste system, and more understanding that we thought there was not one but we're showing with evidence and data that this does in fact exist. So I think the next like 18 months are going to be incredibly important to seeing what we might do to really start addressing that because, again, the American dream is that there's no such thing as a caste system, right or the idea of the American dream that you know where you're born doesn't necessarily dictate where you end up in your lifetime. Now, what I will say is that generationally speaking. You can move through different classes, right but the American dream is that you yourself can go from wherever you are poor, to rich, usually in a span of 10 to 20 years right now and I'm being very specific about that time span because the idea is that if you work hard you work smart, you have some sort of outcome, usually within a decade or two, you can go from whatever class you are to something that is like big way beyond that. No, we're seeing it happen a lot for let's say like high, middle class. Right, people that are having a class are going to buy rich, like ultra rich. Right, particularly like in their lifetimes, but I don't know if we're seeing it from like the poor to the middle class or middle class to like, you know, high, middle class when the whole. We hear a lot of the exception stories of themselves, like around that.

Victor Udoewa 30:02

Yeah. You kind of, you kind of bring up the anti capitalist and because I think it's very difficult in our system, economic system right but our economic system is not just a system of the allocation of money but it's the allocation of power as well. We talk about capitalism it isn't a sense that type of system of governance at the same time, it's, it's very difficult to accumulate mass wealth in a way that decreases inequality, like, usually if you if you're accumulating mass wealth. Let's say you Jeff Bezos or something. There are people that are helping you to do that, that are not accumulating that well, and are getting paid. Not very much, but maybe doing most of the work, enabling most of the work right. So Mark's right. Going back to the 18 1800s 19 early 19 hundred's Marx is talked about that talk. He said he came over to the US right and he wrote about slavery and he saw like the liberation of slaves as a wonderful thing but he did talk about, you can move from one type of slavery to the next type of slavery. So we talked about wage wage slavery. Right, which is why he promoted a, regardless of the system. He was promoting he was seeing problems in capitalism that over the years seems almost inherent to it, like it's very difficult to do that so I don't know, there is this connection like Bell Hooks talks about the connection between class sex and race. Martin Luther King talks about connection between militarism capitalism and racism. Right. Reverend William Barber the second who former head of the NAACP in North Carolina talks about, and he's the head of the poor people's campaign talks about five interlocking and justices or evils he talks about mass, poverty, systemic racism ecological devastation the war economy and the false narrative of religious nationalism, you kind of brings them all together and shows how they all kind of feed on each other. So there is a there is a component like Angela Davis talks about how capitalism, in and of itself and this way here is practice he was racist, right. So, it's hard to talk about one without the other. It's hard to dismantle one without affecting the other, you know, so

Duane Rollins 32:37

the challenge to my, a lot of people have been exploring like democratic socialism or the Nordic model. Right. Yeah, and how those countries are like moving forward, but what you see. Sometimes in like socialism is like everybody agrees that socialism is good if it's just us. Right, right, but when it's others or outsiders that also benefit from it benefit from it. That's where there's real like issues and like tensions, right cuz like, Hey, we're helping Americans like great but the question, our country, particularly like what was it was American right because there's some they only believe there's a certain type of person is a patriot, and everybody else is not right. Yeah, regardless of like their citizenship where they were born here how long they lived here, you know get questions of people who have lived there their whole life in it for like multiple generations that people will want you to go back to Mexico, right or go back to China where you're in it's like where you're from is like, well, this is where the fun is where they grew up. So I think the idea of democratic socialism like is really interesting, and I think it should be explored more. But the question becomes, can you have democratic socialism in a society is still coping it hasn't really figured out how to address racism in general.

Victor Udoewa 33:54

Yeah, I mean that's the question I think that we're dealing with now. Well, in some sense, this is kind of a side, side points your point is this question of how do you make decisions. And so, there's this thing this phenomenon called minoritarian rule. Right, which I think is is part of what Stacey Abrams has been working against where I think if if you if you asked me, let me ask you, like if if every eligible. Right. Eligible person for voting like voter voting eligible person in the US voted. Right. With this select this past election, I'm talking about let's say a presidential election because we all have different states and counties and cities. Where do you think that the the bulk would have gone would you think do you think Biden would have won or do you think Trump would have won.

Duane Rollins 34:47

So I still would say Biden would have won but you can also look at the actual difference in numbers right from like the actual election you say the popular vote versus the Electoral College.

Victor Udoewa 35:01

Yeah, so that's what like for years, to me, I was trying to figure it out I don't know I don't know where this country is but one thing I know I want to know, I want everyone to vote. I want I want the races to vote I want supremacy. I want everybody vote because I want to know where this country is and then that lets me know Do I want to be here. Or if I want to go somewhere else, right. So I have this sneaking suspicion that maybe if everyone voted it wouldn't be the way and you and you kind of you, you get that feeling because there's a lot of people fighting people's votes rights voter suppression stuff like that. So then when I saw what happened in Georgia this year and I tried to help with it like I was phone banking and stuff like that I went I was trying to get out the vote. And even when I think in places like Texas, like I really believe like what is happening is that the minority of the people in some of these places, who are white are getting away because of various structures, whether it's the courts, whether it's gerrymandering whether it's voter suppression, every vote is not equal. And so when I have this conversation with certain people this is what they say. So we would wait a minute. Are you saying that, not because I'm now in the minority then I don't, then I don't get to like the person that I vote for doesn't win. And I say, yeah, that's what like that's how it works. and you can't complain about, like, oh, minority debt like, why shouldn't it be who I want even I'm in the minority when you didn't complain about it before, when you weren't in the minority, like it only matters now, I don't know, sorry I'm getting worked up a little bit, but the point is, we have this minority rule thing, and people are really opposing the changing demographics in this country, and there's going to be a continued fight, but I think there are more states that are like Georgia. I'm pretty sure that, and you will see, and we will hopefully we will see it depends on how the systems and the fight, go but you know we know this is a kind of a backlash the whole, the whole Supreme Court case, I think is Shelby vs holder in 2013 that allowed states to not get approval from the United States government before making voting laws, because they used to have to from when I sat there now they could just do whatever they want and I kind of voter suppression never stopped but not just like exacerbated is blew it up. So I, I think that thing bothers me when people are like, oh, but what about me that shouldn't. That's not fair if I'm an A minor, but but that's how it works. We're doing majority rule, like, I don't know that that kind of bothers me so yeah it's it's a it was a struggle, and

Duane Rollins 37:35

destiny. Yeah, yeah, I was I like the notion of like minorities rights are being flipped in ways that, again, the rules are changing mid game is kind of where everybody's frustration is but is not like hidden anymore and is much more blatant to where people who maybe were in the middle was like this doesn't really matter is that happen. They're seeing it happen so often in such blatant ways with such like really really poor like candidates right and people who like yet. Why would you want them in like if you have an option that it only has to be other things and that goes back to Tallahassee coats, like famous line that Donald Trump was the first white president. Right, where he really mentioned that, you know, because of who Donald Trump is and what he represents him, you know, he didn't have qualifications he wasn't necessarily well liked by a lot of people, but the only way that he could have been in this position is because he's a white male. It is no other like gender, race of people that could have done it things that he could have has did, and still one been allowed been elected been allowed to stay and been paroled it, it only happens, because he's a white male, like in this country so his argument is that he's the embodiment and really the first like white president, right on the US, and I think that's just something to keep in mind. So, Yeah, as we kind of think about where I go next. Any like parting thoughts.

Victor Udoewa 39:08

Here, the one thing I'll say, because I always bring up some really good things and I like 1000 things saying, and I don't always remember them all but one thing I wanted to note is that, in my experience in conversations with people across this country. I do realize that there is a growing consciousness, growing white consciousness of racial issues and problems and tensions that have always been there, and simultaneously, my party that is, there are still people, there's still groups of people, predominately white people who are not becoming more conscious of the stuff that's going on. And maybe it's because they only consume media with certain types of whether it's Facebook or, or Fox News or whatever but that the idea that everybody now is realizing isn't true it's it's some portions and yes more white people. But I don't know what I don't know where the balance is I don't know what the percentage is but there are people who are not more conscious. Now stuff that's going.

Duane Rollins 40:06

Yeah. So, with that being said, I think we have a lot of work to do. Moving forward, but specifically for black people I do think we have a black meal isn't something to really explore a lot more and be thoughtful by what does that mean but how do you channel that into policy, economic, you know, social wins that we think will help continue to uplift us to provide us an opportunity to just pursue the American dream and to pursue it freely right without obstruction, as is afforded to so many other people, but it is a mental block that we have to overcome. First, and there's also policy. Right, and structures that do need to be done in order for it to happen. There's, there's both of it but you first have to at least overcome that mental block and I think that's one of the advantages I haven't seen from the you know what I call the black immigrants versus black natives right and how they view the world, and maybe it's because they have the context of other systems and other places, and why this is you know presents more opportunity. But yeah, when you're, you're born in it, you know that it, even though if it's presenting more opportunity to other places it's not presented as much opportunity as as a 42 other people that are there also.

Victor Udoewa 41:28

And one thing I add another thing is that, I think I may not be an afro munis Africa's pessimist. I don't even know where I stand necessarily but I find solidarity with them because we ask, we're asking the same questions. So even though Malcolm and Martin had differences, he. They also ended up really close in a position to the end of the line, but they're asking the same questions. So I think that that kind of puts them on the same side, I want to close with a quote from Orlando Patterson I'll be real fast. He has a book called slavery and social death, which is where a lot of Afro pessimists draw from. He says we're going through a period of extreme despair about the situation of African Americans the most extreme form of this despair is a movement called Afro pessimism which holds that black Americans are still viewed as they were viewed in the slavery days as different inferior. And as outsiders. I find myself in an odd situation because Afro pessimists draw heavily on one of my books slavery social death, which is ironic because I'm not a pessimist. I don't think we're in a situation of social death, because one of the elements of social death is that you're not recognized as an integral member of the Civic community the public sphere. And we certainly are on the political and cultural levels, and we're very integrated in the military, which is the quintessence of what defines who belongs the afro pessimists are right though, two points persisting segregation in the private sphere. So, that sums up where Orlando Patterson he's a professor at Harvard lands. And again, we may not all come to the same conclusion, but we're asking the same questions and hopefully work towards same things.

Duane Rollins 42:57

I love that saying we're not may not all come to the same conclusions, but we're asking the same questions is exactly what we want to like kind of get to, when it comes to the conversation around this. So thank you again Victor. Beautiful. As always, and we'll do this again.

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In this conversation, we discuss the concept of Afrofuturism. We dive into its history, how it’s evolved, and what it may look like moving forward.

We also list numerous resources where you can learn more.

Resources

List of resources mentioned in this episode:

NK Jemisin (Website)

The Social Responsibility of Wakanda’s Golden City (Wakanda Bible)

Pages from the Wakanda Bible (Twitter)

The Darker Side of Western Modernity: Global Futures, Decolonial Options by Walter D. Mignolo (Book)

Ytasha L. Womack (Website)

Afrofuturism: The World of Black Sci-Fi and Fantasy Culture by Ytasha Womack (Amazon)

Mark Dery - Credited with coining the term Afro-Futurism (Wikipedia)

Black to the Future - Essay by Mark Dery

AfroTech

Black to the Future: OkayAfrica's Introduction to Afrofuturism (article)

Octavia Butler(Wikipedia)

Colson Whitehead (Website)

Lion's Blood: A Novel of Slavery and Freedom in an Alternate America by Steven Barnes (Book)

Nola Hopkinson (Wikipedia)

Skin Folk: Stories by Nola Hopkinson (Book)

About Framed Perspective: Recorded Conversations

Rough Transcript

SPEAKERS

Victor Udoewa, Duane Rollins

Duane Rollins 0:03

All right. So back end again, with recorded conversations really moving the conversation forward on the flavors of blackness, talked about wasn't meant to be black in America, or does it mean to be black and Africa was meant to be black in the Caribbean paddles into play. And today, we want to have a follow up conversation about Afro futurism. So we're going to start off and just go into Victor just say, you know, when you think of Afro futurism, what does that mean to you? And how are you thinking about that concept today?

Victor Udoewa 0:41

Yeah, it's a tough term. I was thinking about afrofuturism, the concept before we came together to meet and I was like, how do I even how do I even define what that is? So there are different there are different ways to look at it. And it it is a it's a cultural aesthetic, it's a philosophy. It's an outlook that really addresses issues, themes, concerns of the African diaspora, you know, broadly, even wherever they are in the world, through technology and culture and science fiction, and a range of various genres, specifically trying to envision black futures, that that stem from these Afro diasporic experiences in groups. There's a, there's an afro futurist named Tasha Womack, that defines it as which I really love the intersection of technology, future imagination, and liberation. And there's another one that I saw that says, it's kind of a way of imagining possible futures through a through a black cultural lens, which is really cool. And actually one of one of the things that I think is cool about like artwork, or you Duane and myself, in terms of our password is that there is a type of design called futures design or speculative design, etc. I see future design is a bit of a broader umbrella than speculative design. But just to help frame this, you know, you can do future designs, speculative design for a few different reasons. So, one, you might do speculative design future design, because there are, there's no comparable thing that exists, there's no we don't know how to design something. So a good example, would be thinking about the iPhone, which I know it wasn't the first phone that had like a touchscreen interface. I think it was a second, but the first one wasn't really widely known. So that it was the first big large scale phone. How do you design that when that has never existed before? Like, what should that interface be like? That in some sense, it's it's a real actual design that it that people will use, but it's speculative, because it's just new, there's nothing comparable to there's a there's an element that's just for like, I would say, inspiration, right? Think of it in Fiction or Science Fiction, think of designing languages, or costumes in Star Wars or Star Trek. Like, it's not necessarily to build something or do something in real life. It's just for fiction, but it can inspire people and have all kinds of ripple effects. The third, which is kind of what I'm starting to do in my work is where you imagine multiple possible futures, for a particular situation people, program, whatever, and then you back casts, which can be done qualitative qualitatively, or quantitatively, say, to say, what are the different milestones or states we have to pass through if we want this future to happen in 10 years time? So we do we do futures design in a lot of different spaces, even outside of afrofuturism. So afrofuturism is applying that type of speculative design design fictions, specifically, in a way that centers on the black experience. And I can talk more about that, but I'll start I'll start there.

Duane Rollins 4:17

Now, it's actually a great place to like, jump off from because I'll tell you how I understood afrofuturism, which is, for me, it was it was a reaction to a lot of science fiction, where it felt like black people and black culture didn't exist when you thought of like the intergalactic universe, right? So it was this claim that there are black people in the future and there's black culture. Now. What is that? What would it look like as we continue to evolve when we imagine you know, 100 200 300 years into the future? Right. What how we operate on the intergalactic life. spectrum like, how does what? How does what we do like today? Like resume? like then? And what can we extrapolate from my god and lessons in the past like from it. So it was almost like a revolutionary way of saying, Hey, we exist in the future. And we want to imagine a future that is shaped by the black experience. Right? And not just, we are either a big character, like in the thing, or oftentimes, like in the sci fi genre, black people were seen as there were kind of covered by the animals or the creatures or, like, those will be the ones that had like, say that ethnic voices, like, in a sense. So that's how I kind of first came across the term in and of itself. And as I started looking into it more and seeing how it's evolved. I think one good representation of it today would be the Black Panther. Don't branch out, which is, like a really good take one like, like a future technology future state. Right. And what would a country look like? When wears black? And isn't that necessarily affected by colonialism? Yeah. Freedom. Yeah. So I really love like, how you broke down the first parts of it. And that was like, just a general understanding I had of it.

Victor Udoewa 6:19

Yeah, I love it is fictional. Just like you said, Black Panther is fictional. It has a whole bunch of technology involved in it. There's also elements of Afro futurist design, like the fashion, the types of clothes they wear, and the costume designers work on that film has that in it. There's a bit of a pan africanism in it, right, with African Diaspora people from all over actors, actual actors, whether they're British, African, British, African American, Afro Caribbean, African, you know, and they use access from all over. So it has it has. And the really cool thing about that example, you use, it pulls from the past. So it's, it's imagining the future, but also, reimagining the past right to say, in the past, there was this country that was untouched and never touched by colonialism. And so today, or in the future, this is where they arrive at. So there's all these connections. The other thing you brought up for me was the I think that there is a, there seems to be a natural connection from what you said to why there is a science fiction link in afrofuturism. Because when you think about science fiction, or just space, right, because you talked about space, we always think about things like aliens, right. And that whole alien, alien nation of black people, I think has a connection to aliens in what it means to be extra extraterrestrial versus an Earthbound be. So a lot of the narratives talk about, they're there. They're trying to revive attempts to build new truths outside of some dominant cultural narrative, like you said, and looking at alienation in various different ways. There's even one there's one half a futures text, science fiction story, where the I don't know, I don't know if it's the US but people why people, when they went to the moon, they they put it's called the dark side of the moon, they they establish an African enslaved people on the other side of the moon that you don't see. So it's exploring, again, alienation that we have historically experienced here on Earth, through the use of space and being alienated out there, when we think of aliens or things like that. It's kind of interesting. So yeah, I hear you on all that.

Duane Rollins 8:42

is actually we've been exploring this and all of our conversations, like when you think about the diaspora, and I think afrofuturism forces us to confront this notion of in the future all the black or do we identify with a country for all this consider by Urban humanoid? sex? Right. And, and those are, I think, some of the works that we're seeing now and what people are exploring is wrestling with that one, because you look at Lovecraft country.

Victor Udoewa 9:17

Yeah.

Duane Rollins 9:18

And what's happening there is just like, Alright, you know, they're definitely black. Yeah. But there's other aspects where I was like, This Supreme Being, that's also black, per se, but it's not necessarily like, it has black culture and black identity, but it's just a human in and of itself. And I think that's what we're continuing to try to figure out and wrestle with, and it goes back to that notion of like in France, you don't think of yourself as like, you know, African, French or Caribbean French is they say in French or just French, right? Whereas America, you can hyphenate right. And again, these are tensions that I think almost A lot of people are exploring as we see writers from different parts of the world really take on this concept. They're doing some really thought provoking stuff, in my opinion, around like what it looks like, right? from both those in the culture and outside of the culture.

Victor Udoewa 10:15

Yeah, is it it is fascinating because you can find it. And I think he's talking about this in fashion, in visual art, in, in literature, especially fiction literature, in music. So it's it's a lot of replays, and it's really cool. Like, a lot of times I I, unfairly or I don't, I don't give enough credit to the act of naming. Right. So I think it was 93 might have been 94. There's a particular scholar mark. Dairy that gave gave the actual name afrofuturism. Right. It, it. It he coined the term. But once that term was coined, it got actually applied to things that existed before the coining of the term. Right? Which makes sense. Usually, you coined the term after there's already been a sufficient movement, you know, so like, I didn't grow up thinking. I'm trying to think of a good example, in music, parliament and George Clinton. funkadelic I didn't think of his afrofuturism But yeah, Comic Con is right. Go ahead. were you gonna say some

Duane Rollins 11:25

Now I was gonna say like, even building on that, I think outcast?

Duane Rollins 11:30

Yes, I would also like fit that genre, but I didn't necessarily consider it afrofuturism. But looking back when I might, oh, that's definitely what? Yeah, the mindset of the mentality. Missy Elliott. Yes. Right. And when she was doing her video, language and exploration along with Busta Rhymes, right, again, those are still explorations of the same concept. But it wasn't defined that way. When looking back.

Victor Udoewa 11:57

Yeah. And today, I think a really big in my mind, the biggest artists or let me say biggest mainstream artists is Janelle Monae. who's done some videos and some of their songs. So some, some people are full on in it. Like sunrise, if you ever know him in his arkestra. Or some people dabble in and, you know, dabble. They do a song here, but then they do other stuff. And they come back and do a song. So I've seen people even put reon in the category beyond saying the category with lemonade. And some of the videos and fashion and songs from that. So yeah, it's it's it's really interesting. And now like today, you can actually find conferences on it. Right. That focus specifically on especially especially in the art visual art room in terms of Afro futurist art.

Duane Rollins 12:47

You can find Afro tech.

Victor Udoewa 12:50

Yes. Yeah, I just went to Afro tech the first time this was November 2020.

Duane Rollins 12:57

Yes, still didn't have a pleasure to go. And of course got canceled probably the year that bottles will show up. So I got I got to make a trip out there to get that experience.

Victor Udoewa 13:07

Yeah, well, it was virtual this year because of the pandemic but seeing how much work they put into making in virtual it's, it's it was the most advanced virtual conference I've ever been to. Like they they they created an entire world virtual world like you had an avatar you walked physically through, not physically virtually you walk through this actual world and stop the different places and every time you entered a place or you went to a party then it opened you up into a it was it was it was pretty phenomenal.

Duane Rollins 13:38

Wow. So um, yeah. Yeah. Where you also talk about how a lot of this is seen, like in literature, like to write and particularly like fictional worlds, but like literature in general, would love for you to kind of like expand upon that a little bit.

Victor Udoewa 13:55

Yeah, in my, in my mind, the biggest, the biggest literary artists, specifically novelists that I have heard of doing this type of work is Octavia Butler. And I for those who don't know her, she's she's pretty big. She centers in her work themes of black women who are who are strong and powerful and don't take mess and are exploring various things of our history. And futures. There's there's a few others. there's a there's a I want to say Nigerian American author whose name is coming to me. Who has a I think I would call it a young adult series, but it's called first one is called blood and water. Have you heard of that?

Duane Rollins 14:55

I'll say NK Jemisin with the broken Earth series. I think really face Yes, also Yeah, but keep talking about the other artists I'll look them up author

Victor Udoewa 15:05

yeah so I'm glad you mentioned a Nk Jamison cuz she I would say she and Octavia Butler are the two biggest that I know of. And in fact, I want to say they're they're kind of award winning. So one of them I'm sorry, my it it's it's not staying with me one a an off MacArthur Fellow Genius Grant. I don't know if this passed in 2024 for her work, but yeah, her novels, Butler's novels associative afrofuturism sometimes it's controversial because it has a lot of multi ethnic multi species type things. She has a book called Wild see, that really fits specifically the the ideas of the afro Afro futurist themes and concerns that I think is really good. There are other people like Steven Barnes has a book called if not African lions blood. Another one called Zoo heart. You mentioned engage MK Jamison, there's Colson Whitehead, there's Hopkinson, I don't know how to pronounce the author's First they may lo nalo Hopkinson. So there's a few of them that are doing really cool stuff, sometimes for the adult audience, sometimes for the young adult audience. Like Nancy farmer has one called the ear, the eye and the arm. And then going back to what you said, you think about people that we didn't necessarily consider it. I remember in school reading Ralph Ralph Ellison's book, The Invisible Man, it was put on my high school literature list, and some people kind of think of it if not Afro futurist, at least as a precursor to Afro futurist literature. So yeah, there's a few different people out there.

Duane Rollins 17:05

And the author that we were talking about was totally out of me. Yes, who created the children of blood and bone, Syria? Along with? I think there was a follow up book. That was the children of virtue and budgets. Okay. What I actually saw that my, my wife actually has read that book, okay, halfway around the house, but I think that's a you know, again, is really like a really like, nascent topic to talk about, right, because it does explore both like the future but also like, black feminism, right, like and how those characters develop in the future. And again, you also have ones that when we talk about black masculinity, how we how that's developed in the future, too.

Victor Udoewa 17:55

Yeah. And black feminism has a name, actually, which I believe first I was seeing written down by Alice Walker. And she she used the term womanism. So now in different philosophy, philosophy departments, in different religious departments. If you do womanist philosophy or womanist theology, you're doing a theology or philosophy that centers on the black female existence being that black liberation philosophy or theology doesn't incorporate your experience enough and then the feminist philosophy can be seen as racist and non incorporating your your blackness and so it kind of sits in this intersection and then as that has gone on to inspire other now there's more chorister, philosophy and theology so the intersection of being a woman and a Latin American, I've seen Dali so like the lowest caste I think it is in in India being both a woman and part of that I've seen a soft South Korean version etc. So it is this kind of spawn on into this interesting intersection of liberation for an ethnic minority and the female gender

Duane Rollins 19:13

is there anything or any documentaries or videos podcasts, or just albums music that you would suggest people who are like really want to dive into this topic to get into I know we mentioned a lot of different things, a lot of books to kind of revisit but there may be some things that people can specifically start like exploring to get a feel for that concept.

Victor Udoewa 19:38

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think it's it's hard because there are some books that I would I want to mention mentioned that talk about it kind of as a good introduction there nonfiction. I know not everyone reads nonfiction, but I will mention one, I think at the beginning conversation I mentioned you, Tasha Womack and in how Womack defines afrofuturism as the intersection of imagination, technology, future liberation. So that comes out of a book. And that book is called Afro futurism. So that's a really good introduction. There's another there's another scholar Alondra Nelson. Let me see if I got the books, right. Yeah. afrofuturism this, the subtitle is called the world of black sci fi and fantasy culture. And that that came out in 2013. So it's, it's, it's still relevant. Then there is Alondra Nelson who's uh, who's another scholar. So I think what you can do is you can go on YouTube and do a search for Afro futurist futurism, in in type Alondra Nelson, and you'll see some quick interviews that kind of give a good introduction. Alondra is a lol Dr. A Nelson, but a larger Nelson does have some articles, you can look up but you might find them a little bit more academic. So I would I would go for the YouTube thing. But there's a book you know, Introduction to future introduction, colon future texts, by Alondra Nelson you can look that up. But Alondra does it does does some really cool stuff. There is a su books our mentioned by that by Alondra as well one also called afrofuturism colon past future visions. The other one is called Afro futurism a special issue of social text. So there's some books there. But what I would do my recommendation is to go on to YouTube, type afrofuturism search search Alondra Nelson, you will see some kind of interesting talks about that. The second is, there are a number of different films that kind of explore it, right? There aren't films that necessarily do a straight up like this is, this is alpha futurism. Let me define everything over there. There are a lot of films that explore it. afrofuturism, for whatever reason, I think, isn't as big on the film side as it is in the in the book or visual arts or music side. But there are some films, so I was trying to think of ones that might be good to, to mention. Um, there's like a number of different ones. And there's one that I thought was really cool. I mean, you've mentioned some you've mentioned some, you know, music, and books. There's a, there's a movie from 1993. So that's around the same time that the term was coined. It's called sankofa. It's directed by any Ethiopian born person. And it features an actual contemporary for that time model, who is in a photo shoot and during the photoshoot, the model, suddenly find yourself on a plantation in the southern US during, during the slavery plantation here, which I think is kind of an interesting juxtaposition of the present and the past and how does the plantation period compare and contrast with being a model on a photoshoot? And maybe in a in an industry that doesn't have enough black representation etc. Of course that that's me interpreting but you kind of see some some really cool stuff that people have done over there. poomsae is another cool one. If you look it up science fiction film by I think a Kenyan off, Director back in oh nine. moonshot monsoons over the moon that's 2015. So just five years ago, it's a two part. It's a short film, so you don't have to spend that much time. And it imagines Nairobi, Kenya in a dystopian future, and you have all these street gang fights that are trying to free people from a trap system. Again, using the future to talk about the president is a really cool one. I'm trying to think of others that might be back Black Panther you mentioned as well, which I think is a really cool one. The funny thing is, you know, Wesley Snipes, some people look at the human vampire movie series blade, as a type of afrofuturism where Wesley Snipes is protecting humanity from evil vampires.

As a person of African ancestry being the hero and leader in this type of sci fi fantasy world. So there's a few things like that I'd recommend people kind of go see but I actually think the movie you mentioned Black Panther is a really good intro to see what what it all means and some of the things that people explore in Africa futures.

Duane Rollins 24:53

Yeah, so one of the things that like I most look forward to like potentially getting my hands on one day is on hand bleacher. She designed Wakanda for the movie. And she has this 515 page, what they call the Wakanda Bible that she handed out to the cast members, as he's tweeted out, like a couple of pages, like from it, but it really describes like, you know, what this, like the nation of Wakanda is with maps and drawings and people and like their costumes and the different cultures that they're borrowing from, etc, from the time that they use, like research, like from the film. So that's something that I found to be very interesting is like reading the work that she did, like on that seeing a couple of the pages, I think I've only found two of the pages itself. But I am looking for an actual copy. So if anybody knows how to get my hands on one, please let me know. But hopefully, that's something to be published in the future, they did publish to two pages of that Wakanda Bible and a Marvel anniversary book. I also but that's a, I think, a really interesting way to start thinking about it in addition to those resources, but that's something that's strictly from popular culture. And I would go back and revisit, you know, the the musical parliament, right, and listen to those albums. And it really will take you to a different place and help you imagine like a different future. outcasts. Also revisiting their catalogue, kind of helps you see the world in a different way. And you can start with Speaker box, love, love. But there's other ones that have been at Allianz, or it's a really good album to give you that Bob and in the visual language of how it might look in the future for us.

Victor Udoewa 26:40

Yeah, I really like the Black Panther one because it it even though it's a film, it incorporates all of it. So the the fashion, the technology, the future, the writing. So the literature, it just has it kind of all in one, so it's kind of a really cool one. The other thing is you can also take a look at a few like, album album album covers. So there is a C. Miles Davis has an album cover. Which album is that? I think it's the album, a garter that the cover of it is is really cool. It was a Japanese artists created the cover, but it's afrofuturist influence cover that depicts like an advanced civilization, which I think is really cool. And then there's two, there's some artwork as well for genetic Janell Monet has an alternative Alter Ego called Cindy Mayweather. And she's this kind of person that's inciting a rebellion and kind of liberate her to help liberate citizens who fallen under an oppression. Again, those are those themes coming back from the African American experience. I was just really African experience, to be honest, globally. But specifically, there's our work in George Clinton, you mentioned in Parliament. And then soon raw, this kind of Afro futurist artists that came out of Alabama, we did a lot of work in Philadelphia, and his orchestra is still going on today. It's been carried on, they have some artwork that shows a lot of like, extra x, extraterrestrial beings rescuing African Americans from a lot of oppression on earth. And you can kind of check some of the artwork. So there's some artwork on some of these albums. It's kind of interesting as well, that is influencing the music, and then the music further influencing other art.

Duane Rollins 28:45

Yeah, Charlie says many of these books and people as I can in the show notes themselves, but this is just a beginning of exploration. Right down that path, though, what does the future look like? Or what could it look like, for black people and some of the questions that are raises and we'll continue to explore this, like just the conversation as you kind of figure it out, and try to understand it better try to help define it, right for future generations to

Victor Udoewa 29:12

And I just, I just want to mention one other thing that comes from our first or second conversation, I don't even remember. But specifically, the thing I love about afrofuturism is that it to me begins to speak about the gifts, the positive aspects, the things that we can celebrate about being a person of African ancestry. Yes, there still are elements of liberation and connections to kind of what that means, but it this is it afrofuturism you know, imagining future possibilities, re envisioning what it means to live in a world a human, a world of humanity, which a black person can be equal. That is a gift that is something want to celebrate and, and one of the questions that needs to be is how do we then get there. So I think about that activity.

Duane Rollins 30:02

I was always thanks for the conversation.

Victor Udoewa 30:07

Always, always, and I'll see you next time. I know we got some, some more really cool topics to talk about some. I'm excited.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit duane.substack.com

Afrofuturism: The World of Black Sci-Fi and Fantasy Culture

Lion's Blood: A Novel of Slavery and Freedom in an Alternate America

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Photo by Bash Visual on Unsplash

In these conversations, we’re exploring what it means to be Black in the 21st century. We take a journey to describe Blackness in America, across Africa, and in this episode we look at the Caribbean.

Victor and I are joined by two special guests. The first is my wife Makenzie who is third generation immigrant of Grenadian and Dominican descent and Raoul Castro who was born in British Guyana and immigrated to America at age 11.

We give context to the question of “What is the Caribbean?” and touch on some of the history of the region. We also list numerous resources where you can learn more.

Resources

List of resources mentioned in this episode:

CARICOM (overview)

How Europe Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney (book)

Golden Age of the Moor by Ivan Van Sertaman (pdf)

An Untamed State by Roxane Gay (book)

Zami: A New Spelling of My Name - A Biomythography by Audre Lorde (book)

A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies - Bartolomé de Las Casas (book)

The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano: Written by Himself (book)

C. L. R. James (wiki)

Cheikh Anta Diop (wiki)

About Framed Perspective: Recorded Conversations

Rough Transcript

SPEAKERS

Victor Udoewa, Makenzie Rollins, Raoul Daniels, Duane Rollins

Duane Rollins 00:00

Duane again, here back with Victor. And we brought two special guests today to really continue our conversation around. We call them flavors of black, right? We previously discussed, like the different types of black people in America, we expanded that to see like on the continent of Africa, like, how's that really shaped the narrative of like blackness? And what does that mean there? Um, and today, we want to really talk about the Caribbean. So I'm joined by two special guests. First, I want to introduce somebody very near and dear to me. We'll talk about yourself and maybe your backgrounds without context, where you're coming from Caribbean sauce? Yes, definitely. So my name is Mackenzie Mackintosh. I'm Blaine's wife. He didn't guess in the name.

Makenzie Rollins 00:50

I am. My my grandparents are from the Caribbean. So I was actually born and raised in Long Island, New York, where they moved to, after they had started their life after getting married in Brooklyn. And my grandfather, he's from Grenada happens specifically carriacou Grenada, which is one of the smaller sister islands as part of the island nation. And then my grandmother, she's from the Dominican Republic. My grandfather, he was born in Grenada, and raised there and came to America, I want to say in his early 20s, whereas my grandmother, she was actually born in the US went back as an infant to Dominican Republic, or went to Dominican Republic as an infant, and was raised there until she was about maybe 10, or 11 years old. And then she moved to New York with our parents. And so her mom and her father, were both like born and raised in Dominican Republic, and they had wanted to kind of start setting up that life in the US. And I think it was because of the current dictatorship that was occurring during that time, which I think during the 30s, it was to heal which Lino Forgive me for the Miss mispronunciation. But you know, it was just a turbulent time. And so you know, as many people seeking a quote, unquote, better life in America from other countries, they immigrated to the US specifically in New York to start that life. And I was raised up by them, I was also raised by my mom, but I was raised by them in their household. And so I do have feel like I have a deeper connection with my Caribbean roots because of that. Whereas if, say, I was just raised by my mom, and we, you know, live outside of the house, I don't know if I would, you know, be as in tune with my background, as I am. And so that's just a little bit about my background. I'm sure we'll get more, you know, into it throughout the conversation. But you know, that's just to start that off.

Duane Rollins 02:53

Fantastic. Cool. I feel like I learned some things about you that didn't know before. So this conversation is enlightening. I'm also we're also being joined by roll if you want to kind of introduce yourself and give a little bit about your background so people can understand the perspective that you're coming from.

Raoul Daniels 03:10

My name is Raoul Daniels. It is a French spelling name ra o ul, but I'm named after Raul Castro, who, if some of us here are not old enough, the Castro's were actually the pop stars of the 60s and 70s in the Caribbean in political circles. So my dad being enraptured of the Castro's at the time, named me after Raul Castro. I was actually born in what's now called Diana, but used to be called British Ghana, to distinguish it from the Dutch, Ghana and French piano, which is in South America. We are the only English speaking country in South America and our culture most closely ties in with Trinidad, Barbados, Jamaica, and any of the rest of the English speaking West Indies. So we are mostly or we are black. Individuals included in this conversation, but just a hint at the history of the Caribbean. I am descended from several different races or ethnicities of people. my great grandparents are from several different places. They are from India. They are from Hong Kong in China. They are African, right, descended from slaves, but they're also my grandmother came from Dutch Guiana and has a bit of Javanese etc in her our ancestor Who we should have chosen his name was actually a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong named Mr. hosszu. My or his son who he had with a black woman. When the son chose to choose a name in order to go to school, instead of choosing his Chinese name, he went with the name of his mother. And so we became Danielle's as opposed to hold suit. But I guess call it an accident of history. I could have easily been, you know, Raul hosszu, or Raul polunin, which is another of my ancestral names. But you know, I'm Raul Daniels and identify here in America, at least as a black male.

Duane Rollins 05:50

Fantastic. And then I don't want to make any assumptions. Victor, do you have any ties to the Caribbean? Dead? We shouldn't know about or death? I don't know. Like, did you live there secretly for a number of years somehow?

Victor Udoewa 06:03

No, I don't have any ties. Not that I know of. In my family line. I've visited the Caribbean number different countries. So I have a lot of questions. For Makenzie roll, just listening to the intros.

Duane Rollins 06:14

Yeah, well, let me start off with like the first like, big question, which is, right, so what is the right a lot of people like, say, the West Indies, or you were speaking about French Ghana versus British guy, like, what is the Caribbean? Like, what does that mean?

Raoul Daniels 06:31

So if I can give a quick historical perspective before Makenzie, just because dealing with people like Victor have been forced to read lots and lots of books, ever since I was a child. And to match his historical breadth of knowledge, I've had to, you know, swallow an entire library. But the Caribbean is a strange, polyglot mixture of races, because most of us were colony, we were either slaves, or people trying to enslave us, or we became colonies. And then even later, when freed, we still were subject to some of the wider forces of the rest of the world. So, for instance, you know, many countries, the Spanish, at one point, owned most of the Caribbean, right, South America. Right. And the Caribbean, were Spanish owned, because they were the first ones to plant their flags in most places. The Portuguese did to a small degree, but the Spanish owned most of the land. So places like Trinidad and Tobago, right? Spanish, Jamaica, or Jamaica, Spanish, Grenada, Spanish, right? So most of the Caribbean hide Haiti, with the Dominican Republic against Spanish. So most of it was originally Spanish, but whenever there was a war in Europe, you traded your colonies. So if you were defeated, you hand it over your colonies to other people. So even my small little British Guyana in the in South America. Well, first owners were the Dutch than the French. There was some Spanish incursion from Venezuela. And then the last ones to come in were the British. So we ended up speaking English, but we have places such as better for walking. Right? I grew up on what was a former slave plantation called South Reinfeldt. Right. And we have villages like Versailles in in our country. Our capital city is Georgetown named after King George right. So yes, we speak English but the Caribbean is a polyglot there is the what used to be the French West Indies, Martinique, Guadeloupe, right. Dutch Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, right. Still some Spanish right South America, and you know, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic. Right. But in terms of European cultures, where everything Europe was, except were in a small geographic region, and having slaves from Africa, Portuguese from the area, Indians from India, Chinese from Hong Kong, right, and all these people forced to live together and, you know, survive.

Duane Rollins 09:48

Okay. there's anything you want to add to that?

Makenzie Rollins 09:52

No, I mean, I think he definitely explained it. He gave all of the details in history. You know, that I know people will be listening to this and they won't be able to see me, you know, shaking my head and agreeing with him in the background. But yeah, I definitely agree that the the Caribbean is interesting mixture of cultures and history. And it really does tell the story, I think of, you know, just the influence of the transatlantic slave trade, but as well as just occurrences that have happened in, you know, European history altogether. And also, you know, influential to the development of the America. So it's Yeah, it again, I completely agree with everything that he said, but the Caribbean is something that I feel like, I'm still studying myself. I mean, again, I wasn't born there. So there's a lot I feel like I have to learn about that history. One of those things being, you know, even still learning and going back to what he was saying, but the actual natives of the Caribbean, it's like the tainos, the Caribbean, I believe that era wax that, you know, originally inhabited those islands. There's just a lot to unpack there that I feel like a lot of people in historians haven't really even explored yet.

Duane Rollins 11:12

Like that. And, and when it comes to countries, like some places that has 26 countries, I've seen some sites listed as 13. Is there an official count on like, the number of Caribbean country? I think there's 13, like independent countries in the Caribbean. But do you know, okay,

Raoul Daniels 11:30

it depends on what you call the Caribbean, right? The Caribbean? Basically, if you look at the geographic, right, it's basically all the countries including what what's called a Caribbean ocean, right? But Guyana, which is in South America, is politically part of the Caribbean. So, in one of your previous episodes, Victor was mentioning like ECOWAS, right in the Caribbean, we have CARICOM, which is a economic free zone initiative of Caribbean countries, but they because of historical politics, they exclude the, the Spanish speaking and some of the French speaking, because some of the French speaking Caribbean are still departments of France, right? So for instance, they're not free countries, right? They're still colonial countries, so to speak. But you know, in our modern days speech, we don't call them colonies, we call them departments of France, right? So Caribbean, geographically, is anyone touching the Caribbean ocean? Right, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Haiti, all the way down to the coast of South America. Right. But you also have to consider the politics of the region. Are you French, Caribbean, Spanish, Caribbean, or Dutch Caribbean, there's still Aruba, Curacao on Bonaire thrown in there, because many of us are still tied to our European. Former colonizers, economically, culturally and in language. Right. So Caribbean is a an amorphous, and amorphous term.

Victor Udoewa 13:30

Yeah, it kind of brings a question that I have for you, Mackenzie, about your grandmother. So I've been to the Dominican Republic, and that borders Haiti, right. Yeah. And I've heard all different kinds of languages. They're listening and talking. So I was curious. One was your grandmother, is your grandmother, a, an afro Latina? And, okay, and that's all I was gonna ask you what, what languages does she speak?

Makenzie Rollins 13:57

So, my grandmother is definitely an afro Latina. She was a dark skinned woman. And I do think that I mean, we can go into a whole conversation about Dominicans and identity and blackness and all of that. But she was a dark skinned woman. And I know that in her time in the Dominican Republic, not that she was shunned, but like she had full knowledge that she was a dark skinned woman, because that level of blackness was just not, I guess, Bernoulli accepted during that time, especially under that dictatorship, where that dictator in particular was very fond of, you know, the Spanish Empire and, you know, wanted to be like a true Spaniard. So, you know, basically shunning any kind of level of blackness. And, I mean, that really reflected on their relationship with Haiti as well, which, you know, still has a long standing impact. But going to her language, she was a I think our first language was Spanish I vaguely remember her picking up other languages. I'm not sure if she picked it up when she was in the Dominican Republic and actually found this out. After she developed dementia, she kind of would revert back to those languages. So like, I grew up with her speaking English to me all the time, like perfect English. I would hear her speaking Spanish to family members and you know, to other people, like, you know, other Spanish speaking people. And, you know, that's when she would indulge in that. But any other times she would speak English. But the first time I heard her speak French, we were actually in a hospital with her. And, you know, it's just something that just came out. So I think it's one of those things where it was reverting back in it was pretty fluid. I'm not a fluent French speaker, but it sounded pretty good. So I mean, I have a feeling that my grandmother had some other languages under her belt that she just never say truly revealed to me because I was a great grandchild, and it's just a different point in her life.

Victor Udoewa 16:02

Yeah, that's interesting, bro. Do you do you know other languages?

Raoul Daniels 16:06

So we are the only English speaking country in South America. Right. But what is interesting about the the British or the English West Indies, is that we are the, our language our is the remnant of the language spoken by the slaves as they were brought from Africa to the Caribbean. So what is interesting is that if you ever get together with Nigerians or Ghanaians and you listen to what they refer to as pidgin English, you are going to find many similarities between Caribbean Creole English and African pidgin English, right? It is the language that so before to slaves when they were captured and taken to the coastal areas to be shipped, whether to Brazil, the Caribbean, the US, the slavers, were trying to teach them rudimentary English, so that they could communicate with them. And by the time they got over to their destinations, they would be able to understand some commands. So they taught them as best as they could. English, which became a creole language onto itself, pidgin English in Africa, and then our Creole English in the Caribbean. So we have some variants, because later the British would come in with the missionaries. So Barbados has a very distinct Caribbean Creole English accent, because they were taught mostly by Scottish missionaries. Jamaica was a bit of a hodgepodge, and is distinct within the Caribbean. So Jamaican patois or Creole is distinct from the rest of the Caribbean. But most of us in Grenada, Bahamas, some of the other small islands and Ghana speak with a particular accent, right? That is changed with a bit of the British, but also again, it's the pidgin English from Africa that's most closely related. Because what we also did was keep a lot of the African words, one of the words I just discovered, speaking to an African friend that I was shocked about was the word yam. Right Nam, in Jamaican patois means to eat. In the rest of us. We knew it as they eat fast, right? But it comes from a language called bhullar. That is spoken in Senegal, and Mauritania, and in the African language, it just means simply to eat. But we kept it in our Creole English just to mean to eat fast. Right. So one of the one of the things that I am most proud of our Creole English is that it is the remnant of the language that the slaves brought with them. So even though when you went to school you were taught proper pronunciation and British Spelling's right. And the you know, proper language at work, or in education is the British Standard English, Jamaican patois, Beijing Creole and the rest of them. This is our history.

Duane Rollins 19:35

Okay, following up on that you kind of talked about when you did your introduction that in America, you refer to yourself as black. I would love for you to like kind of unpack a little bit like what does it mean to be black in the Caribbean versus black and America to you if Black is a thing at all and the Caribbean from your perspective?

Raoul Daniels 19:54

So you guys touched on this in some past episodes, right? That it depends on where you are. If you're in a mostly black country, who cares, right? Because if we're all black in the country of, you know, let's bring in the mythical Wakanda, then it goes back to your tribe that you identify with within that black world, right? So, growing up in the Caribbean, we didn't have an overwhelming need to define ourselves outside of certain ethnicities or tribes, because we didn't have an overwhelming number of whites. By the time I grew up, we were moving from a colony, we were already going from a colony to an independent country, and the few whites who owned most companies or land etc, had left the countries, right, some of the governments had basically seize their properties, etc. So economically, there wasn't much for them, so they left the country. So the first time I saw what would be considered a fully white individual, were some tourists when I was about 11 years old. Right? Before that, our governments never mandated that anyone had to fill out any forms with a race. So it wasn't as if growing up, anyone pointed out to me that I was a black male, or, you know, anything, because there was no other to define yourself against. So what we are what we did, which, you know, this is some of American history, we identified according to our ethnicities, and our mixtures. So within the Caribbean, or within Guyana, there's a reference to what's called a dougla. And a Douglas simply is a creole person, you're African ancestry, and you're mixed with Chinese East Indian, or you could even be mixed with white or Portuguese, right. So I am a dougla. In Ghana, meaning that I come from a mixed ancestry Asian, in the African, right, coming to America, I arrive, I go to middle school, and immediately someone says I need to write down something on paper. And I've never done that before. So in the 1980s, the categories were more geographic. So I was actually a Hispanic for most of the 80s, because I was born in South America. And the racial categories were aligned with geographic categories. So I actually was forced by the government definitions to identify myself as Hispanic in the 1980s, then they rewrote the definitions. And then they made it you know, Black or African American by ancestry, meaning that if politically, you felt you were Black or African American, you weren't forced to identify yourself geographically with where you were born. So even though right in my own country, no one cares about what race I am, right? And I don't have to fill out any forms when I came to America. And I was forced or asked to do so. I identified first as Hispanic because of geography. And then as black simply because of politics and history. Right at the African is most dominant within my history. So that's what I choose.

Victor Udoewa 23:39

And I kind of I wanted to hit upon something. Exactly. Because you talked a little bit about this about the different the different kinds of people shades, right, that you saw, both of you mentioned that. And I I've had various conversations with different people that have talked about countries throughout Central America, and South America. And when I say Central America, I'm including all of the islands, the Caribbean islands, that have suggested to me that in most places, this might not be true. And I want to know what you all think, to be the the people who are the worst off the most marginalized, tend to be the darkest people like the black people, right? So good examples. I have a friend who lived in Colombia for a number of years. The poorest communities, the one that was the worst off were the afro Colombians. I don't know how prevalent that is how far that goes, how much colorism is, and I'm curious what you all know that I've experienced with that. Have seen that in your family lens. So we can see

Raoul Daniels 24:55

I'll refer

Makenzie Rollins 24:58

so what I will say Is I guess just Well, let me say this Grenada is mostly like brown skin, dark skin black, like you do have that variation of shade. But from my observation, from what I've been there, and I've only been there like one time for like a very short period, like a couple of weeks, you know, what I observed is that, you know, everybody there kind of looks all like us. So I didn't necessarily see that kind of difference in terms of, oh, all the darker skinned people are poor, or all the lighter skinned people are better off kind of thing. I'm not in that particular round. But I do know, like, say, in the Dominican Republic, it from what my grandmother has described, to me, it is a little different. Like, I know, she always felt like she faced a lot of discrimination. And I mean, she brought her kids there when she was younger. But even when she went to go visit, they kind of treated her like an outsider, because she was dark skinned and had coarser hair, to the point where they would talk about her in Spanish and the hair salons there and not knowing that she's, she speaks fluent Spanish, and that she was like she was raised there. So I know that that's something that was, I don't know, if it I don't want to say it necessarily scarred her. But it's something where I don't think she looked as fondly on the Democratic Republic as saying my grandfather did on Grenada, to the point where she never brought me there. She would tell me stories about her life, but her stories will always be, you know, we were poor. And all this stuff happened. And then we left and that was that. So yeah, I mean, it's hard to say in terms of my observation in the Caribbean, because I've only been to so many countries at this point in time. But I feel like I do see that in America, where you do have darker skin, people or you know, brown skinned people in general, are generally on the side of, you know, your lower income, like I work for DC, Medicaid, and I can say, you know, just based off of the demographics that we have in our population, it's a majority black population, which, you know, considering this as chocolate city, and that there's a abundance of opportunity, in that the programs in DC do offer residents so much that they would be better off, but to me, there is something systemic that has to be there to continuously push them down. And again, just considering, like my grandmother's experience with, you know, her being of darker skin, and from my observations in general in life, like I do think that it's something that exists, I just haven't necessarily seen it firsthand, say when I've visited Caribbean countries.

Raoul Daniels 27:53

So regarding color and economics, right. Although the Caribbean was part of the European slave trade, etc. One of the things having grown up there, up to the age of 13, that I escaped, and I thank God for this every day, is that I never associated color, with achievement. And by that, I mean, people create the mythical world of Wakanda and put it into a popular movie. But what conda exists, right, as a realistic society, in many parts of the world, right? Where the color of your skin had nothing to do with your wealth, or achievement or your ability. So growing up, right, I mean, we we had the color bar, let's call it same as in America with the octoroon and quadroon. And whatever, right? We have the shades of color, because, for instance, the British chose to bring six different, what we might call ethnicities, or races into a tiny little country, and told these six different races that we could care less you are going to find a way to survive, right. So but growing up, I saw and we have people that were dark skinned that we would call them blue blacks. You're so black, you are blue. But in my mind, I never associated that darkness with achievement, because my prime minister was a dark skinned man. My president was a dark skinned man. I played every day with people of African descent, Indian descent, China. I played everyday with these people. I celebrated their religious holidays and they celebrated mine. So it wasn't a mythical Wakanda. It was just a society in which kids actually grew up not believing that color had anything to do with achievement. Now, economically, as darker or African descended people, we are not the top of the society as a group, because after slavery, right, the British free their slaves earlier than America did. So they banned importation of slaves right after the 1800s, the early 1800s. They freed the slaves by 1834. Okay. What they then did is to bring in all the other people to offset So what, you know, just a quick history of Ghana, the slaves used to save money while they were enslaved, the ones who had skills were rented out, and they would find surreptitious ways to hide money. So as soon as slavery was over, miraculously, these ex slaves pooled their monies together and bought land that they turned into villages. Right? So these were people, smart, intelligent, hard working. Now, they then formed pools of labor and went back to the plantations and said, you know, hey, slavery is done. If you want us to work for you, and keep your economic system going, we would like such and such a renumeration call it a minimum wage, right? The British aligned with the plantation owners thought this is this is terrible. We're just going to go to Madras, India, and we're going to get these indentured servants and bring them over, we're going to go to Madeira in Portugal and bring these Portuguese over. And we're going to go to Hong Kong and get these poor Chinese and we're going to bring them over all to break that labor pool of the African descended people, right. So over time, right, some of those Chinese became the middle class, they dominated the retail sector, the Indians actually went ahead and dominated the agricultural sector, right? The whites promoted some of the fair skinned people that spoke very good English, etc, into the what we call the, the, the government, etc, right? The Civil Service. So the civil service, certain people began to dominate that. And those people over time, became the upper class of society. But I was still able to grow up in the 1970s. And the 1980s. Not associating color, with economic or educational achievement.

Duane Rollins 33:02

So building on that you said, you know, as you grew up, you didn't associate color with economic achievement, right? Or performance? Did that change once you moved to America? And what was your first impression of, let's say, black Americans, as you came over from British Ghana?

Raoul Daniels 33:21

So I was 13. Right? I was malnourished, so I was much smaller than most of my associates at that time. But I found black Americans, and Americans in general is shocking. Now, this was before the age of worldwide television, I had not watched television or any of those things. We didn't have the right, this is pre Internet, and all those things. So as you traveled, you're actually going from one world to a completely different world, right? Because you've not seen their television, node near language, their dress, their food, etc. So I arrived in America, right? Lots of things are new. But you know, I start the eighth grade. And I let everyone know, you know, my intentions are to become the president of this country. And they look at me as if I'm from Mars. You know, why would you have such a preposterous idea, and a lot of this was coming. You know, I went to a majority, African American neighborhood, Junior High School, right? So here are my fellow Africans, or African Americans looking at me, as if I am the alien from Mars, because I make a declarative statement that my intention is to be the president of this country. And I, you know, they were shocked at what I was saying, and I was shocked at their reaction. Because my thing to them was, if I work hard, and I achieve a lot. Why can't I simply become the president? Right? I mean, that's what I was doing when I was in my little tiny country, was working hard to achieve educationally, and then hoping one day to have some economic gain. And if the President was the ultimate leader of my little country, then if I was the best, I would become that if I stayed in my country. And so even now I am in America. If I repeat the same things, I work hard, educationally, I gain economic achievement. Why can't I aspire to become the president of America? Now, it was partly my ignorance about the you know, the laws, etc. But what I always felt at that time, and I'm a bit more educated now, right, several decades have passed. And I've been able to read and educate myself. But I always I have always felt that Americans, black Americans grew up in a country that tells them who they will become. And they pass that on to their children. Right, whether consciously or not, to the point, that in 1984, if a young black child in America said, I am going to become the president of this country, even the adults, even black adults would correct that child. So I've lived long enough to see someone named Barack Obama. Right, become the president. So what do I teach my child? If he wants to become the president of this American country, then that is what he will do. He will achieve educationally and economically. And if he wants to become the president, so be it. So I bring that story up just to show you how different my world in the Caribbean was coming to America, and having people telling me that there was a ceiling on my achievement in 1984. And me letting them know that I kind of don't buy into that, you know, because it shouldn't be.

Duane Rollins 37:22

And then Mackenzie by following up on that. What was your experience, like from your grandparents, like they immigrated here? Did they raise you with that any sort of like limitations? Or like your mother? Did they originally limitations that, you know, your color might determine your overall economic or performance? in general?

Makenzie Rollins 37:42

No, no, no, they, they're, they were always very big on education, that education will be the key to get me to wherever I want to be. And so even to the point where, when I was applying for college, I had applied to Howard, which I was really excited to go to, because I had grown up in Long Island, in which case, I went to predominantly white schools my entire life. And I always had, you know, black friends around me and you know, the small pool of black kids that were at the schools. But I really wanted to have that experience of what would it be like to say go to a HBCU. And so I had also, at that time, gotten into Cornell University, and I was still really leaning towards Howard. And I know my grandparents were like, you should go to Cornell. their reasoning being, they did not feel that it was realistic for me to say, be around a lot of, I don't know, I guess like black Americans, like the world is going to be mixed. And that's where it is. And that's how you're going to learn to succeed in the world. And so, if that's something that was very big for them, is that you know, I pursue the American dream and the American way, and that if I do so then yes, I will achieve. And I mean, since I've discovered that there are different avenues of doing so, like, you know, I would love for my kids to go to my future child to go to an HBCU. I think that that would, you know, be extremely relevant, especially in these times, but I know that they're going to get an amazing education just as if they were to go to say, an Ivy League University. But, again, that's something that my grandparents, they never told me. You can't, you always can, but you should do it, you know, say in this way, because we came to America for a reason. So

Victor Udoewa 39:47

it's interesting because I, you know, I, I'm the first one of my family to grow up here. We're from Nigeria, and my parents had the same exact mentality like, they thought if I went to an HBCU That I wouldn't be able to compete against it, like, you got to go to the place where the white people are gonna show that you can compete with them, you got to do your, you know, that kind of thing. So it's just really interesting to hear you talk about that relatedly for both of you. I'm curious when I hear about all the commonalities of some of the different Caribbean countries, AND and OR territories or departments, you know, the Creole language, and then coming here and in the process of adjusting, like you were talking about and seeing the different reactions to your thoughts based on where you're coming from. I'm curious about the identity of black Caribbean's in the US. And is there a stronger connection to other Caribbean people? You know, Mackenzie, your parents are both greater than they married each other? Is there? Is there a strong connection to other black Caribbean people? That's stronger than this sort of a connection to black people from other other places? And how, how connected? Do you feel black caribbeans are to black Americans? Black us Americans, descendants of slaves.

Makenzie Rollins 41:16

So it's, it's a loaded question. So I'm gonna start with I'm gonna start with my experience at Cornell. So I grew up in Long Island, a lot of the people that I grew up with were black caribbeans, I actually grew up around a lot of Haitians. And when I went to school, that was the first time I was actually more so introduced to say, people who were, you know, from Africa, or like their parents were had had immigrated to Africa, from Africa, to the to the US, and they were born here. So that that was kind of my experience. But at Cornell, if we had like the Caribbean Student Association, like I still somehow gravitated towards, you know, other friends of Caribbean backgrounds. So I had a lot of friends that, you know, were Jamaican, I had a lot of friends that still were Haitian or from other areas. at Cornell, they played a lot of Western music, like a lot like almost all of the parties that we would hear Soca, like a Soca said, we would hear reggae, we would hear it all. And I know that that's kind of like a branch of the fact that we're in upstate New York and in downstate New York, that's something that you would hear a lot if you go to a party. But you know, I still felt like I was emerged in kind of that Caribbean experience. But at the same time, I was more exposed to more African Americans and really understanding what that was. And it's weird, because I feel I feel like growing up, I was always treated as African Americans more so and not saying that in a negative way. But you know, if I talk to a white person, I immediately think, oh, you celebrate Kwanzaa? And it's just like, No, I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I don't really know what that is like, right? That's not something I grew up with. And that's also not something that I've seen from my African American friends is like characteristic of their household. But you kind of get stereotyped into that, well, you're not anything else. You're just, you know, this, this black American. That's here. So I'm going to consider you African American. But I've always found those pockets to this day. Most of my friends are Caribbean, or actually East African, which is very interesting problem, because I live in DC. And, you know, it's I don't know what it is. But I think it's just that that shared culture, just you know, that spark where you just gravitate, I was actually surprised that I ended up marrying an African American, I always thought I was gonna end up with someone of a listing and background or other immigrant background, but you know, here we are.

Raoul Daniels 43:57

And I'm sure you're right. Just to give you a little parable, one of my soul, one of my friends and I who were heads up the Caribbean Students Association at Cornell, once gave us a parable that the only differences between the people of African descent in the Caribbean and the Americas were the price of slaves on the particular day that the slave ship came into port. Right? If slaves were selling for more in Jamaica, or Barbados, or Guyana, or even in the Americas in Florida, right, that's where the ship would go and sell the slaves if it wasn't already contracted to deliver slaves in some particular place. So as much as people of African descent, might want to point their differences they may only be separate paraded by 200 years possibly descending from the same tribe, family, village or country, right. So as in modern times, we point to our differences. Keep in mind that you are only as separate as the price of slaves. That particular time when the slave ship came into board, you know, with myself, just using some of my college experiences. I was head of the Caribbean Students Association, right. But remember, this is Caribbean, we had green eyed red here, Chinese of Jamaican descent, along with full blooded, East Indians, right? We're separated by 50 to 100 years from India. Right. So we also hung out with the Indian Students Association, we celebrated Diwali and Bagua, and all these things that we used to do in our own childhood, we hung out with the African Students Association, whether they were Ethiopian or South African. We cooked similar foods, right? So we knew what Fufu and all of the cassava leaves and all these things were. So we went and hung out with them and ate their foods and celebrated their holidays. We hung out with let's see, Indian, African American students write the African American or the black Students Association. We hung out with them, because, again, there were more similarities than differences. So we just hung out with everyone. But there are portions of my population, African descended Caribbean people who may wear the culture, our history, like a jacket. Yeah. When I move to someplace cold, I wear a different jacket. And when I move to someplace warm, I take the jacket off, right? Such is our history because we moved so much we came as slaves. And then when there was work in Panama, Jamaicans trinidadians, barbadians and Guyanese packed up and went to Panama. Yeah. So you meet Panamanians with English surnames, and you find out there only one or two generations separated from the rest of us in the Caribbean. Right. But now, instead of assuming that there are acting African American, they'll choose the Spanish identity more than they will be African American. Right. So you because in our history, we we moved and traveled and went to different places, right? Some of us were our African descended culture, like a jacket, I would hope that I am not one of those.

Duane Rollins 48:02

Love that in my experience was actually very different in that, you know, most of my family actually went to HBCU. Like the vast majority, and it was never a thing in my household, or growing up that, like college was this some unattainable thing, because most my grandmother, my grandmother, my great grandmother had 11 kids, most of them went to school. But I am Muslim, graduated college, and almost everybody in my family went to an HBCU. So at least for undergrad, so I broke the mold by going to a BWI or a predominately white institution when I went to school, and it wasn't like one of those things where like, watch don't want to go to HBCU is like, well, I wanted to do engineering. I didn't necessarily want to go to the same school that my brother went to because he went to at&t. And I thought that was the best school for like engineering. And so there were other schools that were really great engineering, one of which being Virginia Tech and was like, Well, great. I get a scholarship to go there's a really strong engineering school. I that's what kind of makes sense, but it was no other school that really stood out for engineering. It was an HBCU well, right, have it in North Carolina a&t. So that's kind of how the decision like at least went for me. But the one thing that I've noticed too, Bob being a you know, a native black, is that you're always kind of pushed towards doing things that give you that where people can't take away your dignity. Yeah, right. So like they push you to like professions. That sound good because they feel like hey, if you do this, nobody can take away your did your dignity or you end up being somewhat egotistical, hyper aggressive about who you are, because you always felt on the rise no matter where you were. Right. So if you went to America, you other if you went to Africa, if you went to Caribbean, you were other. So you just had this strong sense of self in order to survive, but it was a sense of pride to is like, no matter what happened to me, I was so bad, my people. I was abused. My land, people spit or talk about how we don't achieve. But yet I'm still here. I'm a survivor. Right? So it was like this great sense of pride of being a survivor to the point where you almost didn't want to accept or take in anything else from the Caribbean culture or African cut culture. Because to be a black American to assimilate almost meant that you were killing yourself. Right, because you had no other country to go to. And if you assimilate to is like, yo, you submit it to the, basically like your master, when you give it. So it was like this notion of Hey, like, you really have to have this strong sense of self. And it was like all the seeking, and I think now, particularly because of music, is what I'm gonna say. There's been a greater appreciation for the connectedness, yeah, right of the entire diaspora. And I really do attribute music to it, both with the rise of hip hop will also bring him back, you know, dancehall and Soca. And like, now in the inner age, you really get to see it and celebrate it, thinking of Afro beats and how that's been exploding, right? Because if you think about America, they say the biggest thing that we export is culture. Well, one of the biggest cultural points we have is our music, all of which are rooted in African American tradition. Right? So it was a way for people to get to know us on our terms. And then for us to go those places and really learn them. And I think there's just a really great connection between, you know, what's happening in the Caribbean and the diversity there and, and learning about that, and really understanding it and celebrating it. And in thinking about what does that mean to be black, like in general, because it's a term now and is more widely used, but not necessarily as appropriate for other people in different countries? Because as you pointed out, and some places will, if everybody looks the same, it just doesn't matter as much as we try. Right, or your economic status while you're there. So I know this is like a very rich conversation. But in and of itself, though, the one thing I wanted to kind of leave us one was, are they any, like resources, books, on people to follow documentaries that people can maybe look into to learn more about the Caribbean culture, and particularly the black Caribbean culture and how that might be the place for them to explore this topic, like further.

Raoul Daniels 52:24

So I feel handcuffed because I don't have my library of several 100 books displayed in my background. I started becoming really popular now with zoom meetings that have to sit in front of your books. And because my book collection, which I started back when I was in college and have kept for now 20 some odd years and build up on right, it is amazing. I'm amazed that books and bookshelves has become so popular during the pandemic. If I started talking about books and authors, I would probably take hours so I will just I've been having some of these conversations with some Caribbean remnants of my Caribbean Association here in Austin, so some of them are still at the top of my mind. Right. On the third voyage of Columbus, there was a priest bartholomay della casas that traveled on the third voyage, he wrote a book called The destruction of the Indies, to document some of what they did, and what he saw. He was more bias right? Remember the Spanish thought in the beginning that they would conquer the native our wax dinos and Caribs that they met, but they ended up wiping out most of them through disease and war. But that was one of the first books written in the early 1500s. Right, Columbus first voyage was 1492. And by the time the third voyage, this priest bartholomay de casas travels on the third voyage and writes the destruction of the Indies, right. We get other sporadic books by various European authors, but nothing outstanding, right? until there was a rash of books authored by African in some cases, slaves or ex slaves, right. One of the more famous was the autobiography ladi equiano. Right, supposedly descended from Nigeria, sent to the Caribbean, then sent to England where he began writing, right and he was involved in some of the the slave right, free to slave movements. Or laddie equiano Otherwise known as gustavus fossa, one of his books, right is was by one of the first ex slaves to have written a book in Europe, right. And then widely distributed, because he lived off of the the ramp the sales of those books, but because he traveled from Africa to the Caribbean, and then to Europe, an excellent narrative of what it was like, right, he was a supervisor manager in a slave plantation. Right? Because I mean, they are blacks who owned either blacks or blacks who moved up within that hierarchy. Modern day authors, you have CLR James that came out of Trinidad, right, who started off with mentality, but came to America and wrote some scathing critiques of the American system, right, because he was in the south, trying to help with some of the voting rights, and they jailed him at Ellis Island in New York. And while he was there, right, this was a guy who was a communist, if you want to call it that, but one of the brilliant Caribbean authors, all right, so CLR James, he was involved. There was a course taught at Cornell years ago, that was called Caribbean identity, that was taught by a Trinidadian visiting professor, who, as I was there, I got to take the class. And here this guy gave us hundreds of books that I was able to document and then try to collect as much as I could, right. But we have others like Michael Manley, the ex Prime Minister of Jamaica, who wrote the history of the West Indies. And some others. You have. I'm thinking of the Trinity. Let's see. Trinidadian Prime Minister, Eric Williams, right. Excellent author wrote about slavery, etc, but also wrote about history of Jamaica. Right. Cheddi Jagan wrote some books about Ghana, okay. But like I said, if we went down this book path, or famous authors of the Caribbean, it would take hours to go through that, because I still have my college notes from 20 some odd years ago. So I'm going to pass over to Mackenzie, she's a bit younger than I, so possibly you have some newer stuff.

Makenzie Rollins 57:37

So unfortunately, I don't have a lot of, say, history books that I am, I'm privy to, I'm really well, I love history, but I also love fiction. So I've been trying to discover more authors of Western Indian descent that, you know, go in that direction. So my favorite as of right now as Roxane Gay, she's been my favorite for a number of years. The first book I read from her untamed state, which is a fictional account of a kidnapping that actually occurs in Haiti. But what is interesting about it is the woman who was kidnapped, she's actually of Haitian descent. She spent some time in Haiti, but her parents immigrated to America raised her there. And she was schooled in the American system. And it's kind of that exploration of her identity as she's going through this tragic event as well. So that's something that was really interesting. She also has another book, which I haven't had the opportunity to read yet the amazing things called at, and I believe it's a count of the history of Haiti. Within again, I've heard really great things about that. Marlon, James is another author that I really enjoy. The book that I love the most, from him so far is the book of night women. And essentially, that tells the story of a a group of women who are essentially you can Americans will consider them witches, but they practice in, you know, traditional African, traditional African religions and rituals, and so on and so forth. And it's told from the perspective of a lighter skin, mixed slave who have it, you know, Black Heritage, and then of course of one of the slave owners. And so that is really interesting. He has a number of really interesting books to the other one is A Brief History of Seven Killings, which is a fictional account of the attempted assassination of what's his name? Who is the famous singer? I don't know why I'm blanking on Bob

Raoul Daniels 59:49

Marley. Yes, yes. You wrote.

Makenzie Rollins 59:52

Yes.

Raoul Daniels 59:53

I almost got to see him in person. I believe it was 2019 when he came to the University of Texas, Marlon, Marlon James, but working on miss the speech and only got to see him afterwards.

Makenzie Rollins 1:00:08

Yeah, no, he really is an amazing author. And then one that I actually she's actually Grenadian or her family is from Grenada, Audrey Lorde. She's a famous poet, I'm sure you guys have heard of her in passing at some point in time. But the book that really stuck with me and I actually read this app right now is called zombie and the spelling of my name. And essentially, it is a story of her upbringing and her identity in West Indian living in America, living in New York, specifically, and then also living her life in America and what that means, and also it tackles sexuality, because she was a lesbian. And you know, how that fit into her identity, both culturally and you know, within society. So that was an extremely touching book that I've read a couple of times, and she's become one of my favorite authors over the years. So those are the few that I can think of right now. I think, if any, I'll definitely let me know. So that we can share with this group.

Raoul Daniels 1:01:16

So I didn't want to appear biased, but I cannot leave this session without mentioning two of the most important books ever written about Africa, African history. Right. Walter Rodney, a guy knees, who spent a year at Cornell, right between 73 and 74, at the Africana center, okay, and went back to Ghana later on. So his most famous book, is how Europe on the developed Africa. And if you have never read this particular book, about the history and why Africa is the way it is, in relation to Europe today, read this book before you die, because it explains just about everything is first. What was it been his PhD thesis was the history of the upper Guinea coast. Right? The how Europe underdeveloped Africa is a progression from that. But you know, as a Caribbean scholar who was killed or died very early in life, right, he would have been one of the preeminent scholars in the world today. Had he lived to his full, you know, his full age. Right. Ivan van certainly is also a very famous author. Right? That is, comes out of Ghana again. But he actually studied on the sheik and Dr. Wright Senegalese. So golden age of the Moore's, and the three invasions of Spain by the North African wars, and how the transition from Greek culture to the Arabs and then from the Arabs to Western Europe, right. Why is Western Europe, the predominant center of knowledge and civilization as we know it today? Right, golden age of the Moors and other books by not only van Surma, but his mentor Sheikh, Dr. Okay. So again, I would be doing a disservice if I didn't mention these people, and these particular books, so thanks for the time.

Duane Rollins 1:03:45

Love that. Victor. Any other thoughts from you? Or things you want to call? No, I

Victor Udoewa 1:03:51

just, I want to thank you both. I really appreciate the diversity of literary genres. Just because specifically, there are people that don't read fiction, but they might read nonfiction or there are people who don't read nonfiction and fiction is accessible. So having a plethora of options is really cool, because different people grab gravitate to different things. So I really appreciate that. It's been a really good conversation. And I learned a lot and I'm gonna be thinking about a lot after this is over.

Duane Rollins 1:04:19

Yeah, I love it. Also, I think we have a lot to take for here.

Makenzie Rollins 1:04:23

Yeah, and thank you guys for including me. I feel like I learned a lot about Caribbean history in general. You know, it's, it's something that I'm excited to learn more about, especially as you know, Dwayne, and I sometime in the future embark on you know, building a family because it's, again, I'm a second generation immigrant here. I want to I want to pass on that culture. To my kids. I don't want it to get lost because you know, we're in America is very easy for those things get lost if you don't share it with your children. If you don't give them History. So I'm trying to do what I can now all too young Bob

Raoul Daniels 1:05:08

Marley, yeah. Three years old. But that's your future.

Duane Rollins 1:05:16

The baby looks just like our cousin.

Makenzie Rollins 1:05:18

Yes. So all the little boys in my family they have like the hair that But no, this is been extremely helpful. I'm definitely gonna, you know, purchase some of those books on Amazon following this conversation.

Duane Rollins 1:05:34

Love it.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit duane.substack.com

Zami: A New Spelling of My Name - A Biomythography (Crossing Press Feminist Series)

A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies

The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano

View Details

In part 2 of this series, we’re following up on our first conversation which spoke to differences in Black cultures within America. It breaks different groups that are part of the Black coalition into different groups:

Native Blacks (decedents of slaves)

Immigrants (African, Caribbean, etc.)

Afro-Latinos

Mixed Race

Religion (Christan, Muslim, Other)

Etc.

It’s beautiful to think about the vast diversity within the Black culture.

In part 2, we look at this same diversity throughout the Continent (Africa).

Resources

Six Regions of the African Union

Agenda 2063: The Africa We Want

Bobi Wine Is Willing 'To Die Trying' To Win Freedom For Uganda

The Muammar Gaddafi story

Pan-Africanism

Read W.E.B. Du Bois’ famous ‘To the Nations of the World’ speech at the 1st first Pan-African Conference in 1900

“If You Believe the Negro Has a Soul”: “Back to Africa” with Marcus Garvey

About Framed Perspective: Recorded Conversations

These recorded conversations started as a way to explore the idea of what does it mean to be Black in 2020. The conversations are meant to explore this topic connecting pre-slavery history with all that has happened throughout the diaspora up to present day. The hope is that these conversations will spark deeper dives into these topics both for us the hosts and the listeners. Recorded Conversations is hosted by Duane Rollins, a Native Black (descendant of slaves) and Victor Udoewa, a descent of Nigerian immigrants.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit duane.substack.com

View Details

(Photo by jurien huggins on Unsplash)

Black is not a monolith. In this episode, we talk about the different Flavors of Black in America from the perspective of Duane Rollins, a Native Black (descendant of slaves) and Victor Udoewa, a descent of Nigerian immigrants.

Resources To Explore

Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi (book)

Black Panther (movie)

Religion of Black Americans (Wikipedia)

Black Ethics by Christina Greer (book)

Not all Black People are African-American (CBS News)

The Changing Definition of African-American (Smithsonian Mag)

A Debate Over Identity and Race Asks, Are African-Americans ‘Black’ or ‘black’? (New York Times)

Not All Blacks Are African American: The Importance of Viewing Advisees as Individuals in a Culturally Mosaic Context (Penn State University Journal)

(Rough) Transcript

Duane Rollins 0:07

Duane Rollins here with Victor has gone on I you say your last name

Victor 0:15

It's a compound word so big like two words together um so Udo first part, and then Ella. So Udo-aye-Wah.

Duane 0:28

I felt like I should have known this at the all this years. But it's bad to know now.

Victor 0:36

I mispronounced My name as a as a as a little kid. So it's all good. Which is funny?

Duane 0:41

Well, we want to really just talk about blackness on particularly like black in America, and the ways that it differs, and how this is often construed with black people being like this model. But it's very much of a rich coalition of a lot of different people come from a lot of different places in the world with different viewpoints. Right? So me myself, I'm a native black. Right? So the way I define that is that I'm a descendant of slaves. And now I can't necessarily recall which country my parents or my lineage comes from. Right. And they do African DNA African ancestry test. And I know that Mossad families from Sierra Leone. Really? Yeah, we're probably the mid day trial. Oh,

Victor 1:30

So interesting. I'm glad they told you the tribe. Because that the thing that is weird for me with those tests is I don't? I don't think so. There's a whole nother thing? I don't ever think about it in terms of countries, when I think of Africa, because because of the history, right, the borders are drawn by comments and stuff. So you have tribes, there are tribes, there are some tribes that are that are wholly contained within borders, roughly. But there's some tribes that are there some in this country, some in that country, that kind of thing. So always think when they, some of my friends tell me, I don't know which one you which, Which one did you do?

Duane 2:07

The African ancestry one.

Victor 2:09

Oh, Africans. So my friends did the ones like, I don't know, 23andme, or ancestry.com, but not African ancestry one, and they'll just get a country name. And so I'm always like, oh, are they? So they're tracing them back to? To, to like colonial periods? Or I couldn't tell how far back that going when there wasn't the boundaries and things like that. So it's interesting. Go ahead. Yes,

Duane 2:33

I know, that's why it was important for me to do African ancestry because they would go back to the tribe. And yeah, it was important for me to know, right, because you know, that traveling is across borders, like, yeah, so yeah, so when I did that, I thought it was illuminating for our whole family to think about, like, what does that actually mean? And now is like one of my missions to like, go back there, kind of meet my ancestors, um, in some way. Reconnect, because there's a bit of a brokenness in a disconnect that happens when you don't know that enough. Yeah. Where your his Yeah, arch with a very, very, very dark period. So that's kind of like my background, you can talk about your background and how you be yourself.

Victor 3:14

Yes, so I, I'm a third culture kid is one of the ways they describe it, or always get the generation wrong. Second generation. So anyway, I'm the second generation to be in the States, but the first generation to be born in the States, depending on how you define it. So my parents came over for college, from Nigeria. So I'm a Nigerian American, I'm a dual citizen, but I'm the first one in my family to be born and grew up in the States. So I know where my parents came from. I'm not fluent in my language, but you know, I know parts of it. I know our foods, I've cooked our foods and our culture, our clothing, things like that. So I'm much more in touch with that I've traveled over and I've, you know, seen my family that's in Nigeria, or in the UK. So it's interesting here you talk, because I have a slightly different desire, which is kind of a newer desire, because I never I never thought about people I'm related to in the black, African American, you know, diaspora. And what and what I mean is that I was reading this book Homegoing, which I think came out by in 2016. By Yeah, I guess anyway, beautiful book. It's every chapter is a different story of a different person, but it's always a descendant. So it's like this mother, then her son, and then the sons daughter, and then it just keeps going. Each chapter is a vignette in the life of a person but it goes generation by generation. So anyway, at the beginning of the book, this woman basically she has to live she's a she's a maid in one house in one village in Ghana. ends up having a child with the the man the head of the household, the man head of the household, there's a fire that burns goes down, she runs away, she starts a new life, and marry someone in another village she has a child with with her new with her husband. So these two children, one from the head of the household and the first village she lived in, and then the one with her husband in the new village. The book follows the descendants as they go down. At some point, this is in the 1700s, one of the lines gets captured into slavery. And they get pulled over to us. And the other line stays in Ghana. And at the very end of the book, The great whatever granddaughter of one line and Gregory Gregory, grandson an online meet because the woman in Nigeria comes in Ghana comes to a PhD in the States. And she has that means, but she never knows that, oh, this person is related to me. If you go back far, that far up enough, right? Because he can't necessarily trace is dead. So I, I had this thought like, Oh, you know, I always thought growing up all the time that you know, I, I know my people I know where we came from, I know new language, all that stuff. And we were not sold into slavery. Never thinking that Oh, some of us might have been sold into slavery. Probably word and I'm not. I'm not connected to that line that came into the US or Brazil or wherever in the Americas. And I there could be people here, I'm related to that. I don't know, especially when I have friends who do some of those tests. And they say, Oh, I'm Nigerian. I was like, Oh, that's interesting. So anyway, I just thought about that email thing. Interesting.

Duane 6:34

It’s actually really cool. Like to think about that in and of itself, because there's like, you know, there's a couple of different distinctions. When I look at Black people in America, one is native black style. There's the immigrants, right? One, once you came by choice, the others who were forced there, and they make their way, right now, what I will say is that I see us all as brothers and sisters, right? And I think we all feel a connection to each other, like, in some way, due to our shared experiences, like in America, but it is a little different perception of how something's happened to us. Right? And what we feel like it's directed at us because we're black network. Versus because we're different, newer, somebody doesn't know it yet. Right? So I remember, like growing up, you know, you think about history of slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow. In the fight for civil rights and what we fight for today. There's this notion that like, America, is this inherently like, racist, like place, whereas like, they have like, as a, structurally, they have it out for black people. Right. But as I started to meet more people who were immigrants, they didn't necessarily have that same shared perception at all times. Right? It was the land of the free, where if you worked hard, you did what you were supposed to do. Right, you had an opportunity to achieve whereas as a native bike was like, this burden of always thinking that even if I did everything, right, right, and I work hard, I would never be given like a fair shot, or a fair shake, because there was not a reason to take for me what was more, and I think that's kind of evident with going to college. What you will find is that a lot of times when you go to like, say, like elite University was like, no higher tier schools, when they find when it's other black people, they're usually black, but they're usually an immigrant black. Mm hmm. Much more immigrant blacks, like it, you know, like, elite institutions or top tier like institutions. And it's just it was always interesting having that interaction. I don't know how that was for you when you went to like your schools. And have you noticed that? Or have you seen that similar trend?

Victor 8:49

Yeah, it's a thing. It's funny, too, because I even saw it. I spent two years at the University of Cape Town in South Africa, right. So South Africa, they had a party, a party all the way up through, which is kind of like Jim, think of Jim Crow. Some, in some ways, even worse, but all the way through 1994. So 1994, they finally get independence out of that system. And they elect their first black, South African leader, Nelson Mandela. And over there, they have that where if you go to the university, especially the higher up you go, the blacks, you see, they're not South African blacks, but blacks from other parts of of Africa. Right. It's very, very interesting. You say that, because it's kind of interesting. Yeah. So I mean, I've seen it in this in the States. When I went to school in the States. I went school in Boston. And it that whole idea of black blackness, like you had to do this, I had to decide, do I want to be in the Black Student Organization VSO or BSU? Or whatever the BSA or do I want To be an African Students Association, or whatever it is ASU So, or do I want to do both? Do I have time to do both? Why do I have to choose that kind of thing? So there are definitely people that felt like for whatever reason, the Black Student Union or backson organization didn't speak enough to maybe their sense of identity, what are the issues they want to work on or whatever, but they felt they wanted as, as a foreigner, as an immigrant is coming in to just to university wanted to have that specifically African group. I've seen Afro Caribbean student groups as well. At certain universities, I don't think I've ever seen Afro Look, they probably exist Afro Latino, but I've definitely seen, you know, Hispanic or Latin x groups as well. So it's interesting that even in like our social group clubs, they kind of splinter off. The The other thing I wanted to say about what you said, is the idea of, you know, everyone being brothers or sisters, and I kind of I kind of like I feel it like yes, I think that's true. I've I feel like that and then it's some some ways I don't you reminded me of that movie. Black Panther. I don't know. I don't know if you saw the movie Black Panther. Right. Yeah. So this character killmonger, right. Play by Michael B. Jordan says some real, like, some truth, some real tough, tough stuff. Right? Yeah, about having a sense of a type of panic Pan africanism. of blackness, and that we were over here suffering in the US. And what kinda is over here flourishing? How come you never did anything for us? You need to help us meet rise up. So he was coming from, like, everything he was saying was on point it was it was a real kind of black liberation his perspective. And I thought it was interesting, because like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I at most, I would say now, but in the past, we just didn't have that sense. And Africa of a shared like, I mean, you the the deepest sense of identity was at the tribe, tribal tribal level. Yeah. So like, you know, someone said to me, the book, I mentioned him going like, Oh, yeah, I really like how she didn't shy away from the complicity of Africans in the African slave trade. And I was like, Okay, yeah, Africans were part of the African slave trade. But to me, what it spoke to more wasn't that they participated in it. But that colonialism, and the slave trade exacerbated tribalism. So yeah, I'm gonna try on my fight with another tribe over land and pot, whatever. And you might have prisoners of war if you fight. But, but now, with these white Europeans coming in and saying, I want to buy some of your prisoners of war, people then started like, I'm just going to do a raid into the next tribe, just to get people that I will trade off or sell to these white Europeans. Like it wasn't about any kind of conflict over land in the it was just like, oh, let me let me make some money. Let me give some advantage. It really exacerbated all of that. But a lot of people don't think about it, because it's like, they're thinking of either a continental identity, or maybe a country based identity where that didn't then exist, it was just a group of like,

I don't know what you call it tribal states, if you could say that. Much more than Oh, we're the same skin color, right? So I think about that I think about I don't know if you've read any of this, but I remember my parents talked about this a lot. I saw some of this, even in the night, when did I go to college in the 90s, late 90s, where there was a conflict sometimes between Africans and African Americans on college campuses. Right. And I don't know, like, I don't even know the source of necessarily, but I think it was a little bit of this. Like, I feel like if the Africans who come over to the US to go to school, are not representative of all socio economic levels of Africans, right? You usually got to be somebody has means got connections got money, you know, so you coming over. And then if you see an African American and you disagree with what they're doing, or you don't think they're taking something seriously enough, and then you say something, and then you argue like, Oh, you think you're too good, and all this kind of weird kind of tension. But it's funny, because I think with with my parents generation, after staying here a number of years since the 70s. Now, we have become, we fall into the same experiences. Yeah. He talks about issues, problems in our communities that African American we have a shared identity here, but I remember college, it was a lot of conflict.

Duane 14:40

like that. It was I've experienced that also from like, you know, black immigrants, like, where they're where they were from Africa, whether you're from the Caribbean, whether you're from Europe or of Latino descent, that was always sometimes like they grew up being told like Watch out for what I'm calling made of Black people. Yeah, right, or their parents looked down upon, yeah, native blacks in some way, and told them that, hey, they're the trouble ones like for, you know, reasons and a lot of like different things. So they've also sometimes saw the stereotypes of black people in America and embedded that in their children. So there was a learning and relearning process, I think that we all went through, right, as we get to know each other, understand different cultures realize that, you know, in Africa, everybody isn't poor. Right? Because that was like a perception that we had, because all we saw was feed the children. So we just thought everybody in Africa was going to have big valleys and flaws, like in the eyes, right. And it was this notion of like, not really understanding and appreciating it, appreciating that, I think when I travel over to Africa, do some work in Kenya, nobody really understood it, like at a different level. Like it was just kind of like a, like I heard about I read about it, but to see in Philly, it was like, oh, like there's a whole way to live, where you don't miss a thing about being black, because everybody's black. Right? It's like, it's not a, that's not a thing, that's not a dividing line in and of itself, right? your tribe, as you say, matters a whole lot more like in that regard. And they would call them like sons and daughters, I remember like to carry to, and really talking about Obama. Yeah. Lupita Yeah. Where they would really say, like, you know, our sister, our son, our daughter, like, and how they are doing big things, like for the tribe for the country. And I think that was something I felt was like, both beautiful. And something that, you know, I feel like we have that as like, you know, native blacks that we do have great pride and goals to achieve. Yeah, but it's, it's not always like shared. And it's not. It wasn't always understood. So, but but I think those are like, some of the differences that you have, it's when I get NATO's in the immigrant class, but then there's a whole other division around religion. Yeah, where people have, and I want to say division, cuz I feel like that means like, they're in conflict with each other. But there's a different way of approaching life or different world views that might come up based on your religion. So I know that there's a difference between like black Catholics and black Baptists. And in the Jehovah Witness in the Pentecostal holiness, like people we think of like the Christian denomination, right? Yeah. But then on the Muslim side, there's a little different too, right? Because you have like, five percenters in a Nation of Islam. Yeah. Which are, again, they are a different approach, right to the Islamic faith. And you have those who immigrate from the Islamic base, and they're from Arab countries. And they have a way of approaching it to Monday, you have like the black Hebrew Israelites. And then you have like the Hutu, right. And that whole, like kind of culture that you see with like, the Creole people, and maybe some of the Gucci, Gullah people, or the Gullah Geechee, right, which is, like, an incredible right to see like that diversity, like, in and of itself, like, just in America. But I know from your experience, you you know, this, too, that diversity is even more prevalent on the continent. Yeah, even more prevalent, when you go to the Caribbean, you think about the different islands, and how they think of themselves and how they think of each other and the differences between them.

Victor 18:22

Yeah, because I guess, you know, there was a lot of evangelism, I guess, you know, the spread of it. And the the process process process, the process of proselytizing, throughout Africa, that spread both Christianity and Islam, throughout the continent, and in other places, as well, like in South America, and not as much in Asia, but it's there. But before they, those things arrived through colonization, and there's a link between, you know, he, he evangelized, and colonization, they were off there often, one motivating the other. There were a lot of like, you know, indigenous religions, just saying, when we talk about First Nations or native Native Americans, we have their own religions and stuff like that. And so even beyond some of those groups you have in some of these countries, I guess they call it syncretism versions, like merges that mix a little bit of the native with maybe is Islamic or Christian understanding, which a lot of the, you know, colonizers or what you call them, missionaries would be upset by like, No, I don't want any part of that in my thing, you know. So there's this whole kind of colonial aspect on the whole religion side that kind of affects it. But what I love about kind of what you talked about is the shared understanding that when I think of in the US, right, because we are talking about us, the fight for liberation, specifically I think with the civil rights movement, but it still continues today, you have the three big groups, I think of just the way I kind of put it together my mind that we're working in a coordinated way in the civil rights movement, where you have NAACP doing stuff. But related to religion, you have a big Christian group, right? With MLK and southernly leadership leadership convention, but you also have a Nation of Islam. So there was a recognition, like, regardless of what the religion is, what I'm seeing today in the way I'm treated doesn't seem to be in line with my my humanity, who I am, as, as a child of God, or my understanding who God is, it didn't fit. So I love that people were trying to approach even if the approaches might have seen different, and I think by the end of by the end of the lives MLK and X were very close, or quote, much closer than they were getting in terms of yet. So it's just kind of interesting to see that, like, Hey, didn't matter where you come from, people see that something right. And you work.

Duane 21:04

So this is a thing when I also want to get to because there's also like the mixed race, like people, yeah, black and white mother or father, you know, black and Asian, black and Latino, etc. And the notion of like, you know, what teachers do they have that allow them to pass in white society, or not pass as to like, how they're treated and or perceived. But to me, what it comes down to is like this, the shared experience of being black in America, is the fight for the recognition of your humanity. Right, because that's what's often been denied to people who, you know, in the broad bucket of black people is like, based on just, you know, the way their features their skin color, like the way they looked, that they were denied that humanity. Right. And I think that's the tie that binds us dead, you know, continues to progress. The thing about the pan africanism. And the notion of like this diaspora is that that's what we're doing all over the world, we just want to, we want our humanity to be recognized, right and protected, as is all other humanity recognized and protected. So that way we can live thrive and grow based on our own merits, right, and not just based on some preconceived notion of who we are based on, you know, race, right, or skin color, which is, you know, a construct in and of itself.

Victor 22:32

Yeah, and one of the things I've loved is that it can be tiring, and I've been there, I've been in that space where you're, you kind of define yourself. Not on purpose, but by the struggle, right? The struggle is the word struggle is who I am. It's all about freedom. But then the question is, well, well, who are you once you're free? Right? Yeah, so I've been really excited in seeing people focus, I think more so now than maybe when I was a kid. But I could be wrong. Just my personal experience, on the joy, the the beauty the gifts of black people, right? What what they bring what they do, not just them, them needing to be free, because I also think, to focus on the gifts and what they bring to the to the American Experience actually might be a pathway to might be a pathway to liberation, as well, when people understand Oh, these are humans, and they are bringing stuff. So anyway, I like to focus on that as well. Because just focusing on the struggle can be draining sometimes.

Duane 23:36

I love that. I think that's like the perfect way to kind of like wrap this part of the conversation up, which is, you know, blackness in America is really that fight for freedom, but is evolving to like, Who are we is when we're free? Yeah. Yeah. And making sure that we have that through lawn, like also, because we aren't getting there. Right. Some might say we are there. I think we were much further than what we were. But, um, and now is really starting to think about as a free people. Like, what does that mean? How do we use our freedom? Right? How do we lock it in and ensure that you know that humanity and human decency and dignity won't be taken from us again? Right, because we have to continue to view ourselves as free people and not just in the fight for freedom. For

Victor 24:25

Yeah, 100%

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