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You can read the transcript of the interview with Dr Charlotte Farmer here:

Host: Doctor Charlotte Farmer, an absolute pleasure having you on the Word to the Wise podcast.

Dr Charlotte Farmer: It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Host: You have [00:01:00] such an inspirational academic business and leadership journey. But if I were to ask you to go back to the very beginning, when did the motivation to really pursue the field of science and engineering really begin?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: I will have to say as a young girl. I'm one of 10 siblings. And, , one of my siblings went to school far, far away, it felt like.. And she went to school at Vanderbilt University in Engineering, and it was at that time that I saw that I could strive for something much broader than I was currently experiencing. And so it was at that time, in my life, I may have been 10 years old and I said, I want to be like her. So I automatically saw [00:02:00] my sister doing amazing things. And I said, I want that.

Host: And for women listening to this conversation, it would be important to understand how you became a leading executive of so many large enterprises. Can you please briefly tell the story?.

Dr Charlotte Farmer: What a story. There were multiple pivots. And what I mean by pivots are points in my career, when I knew it was clear, I had to reinvent myself. Re-imagine what was next? Because you often hear this term, what gets you here will not get you there. And so my pivots were very painful actually, and eye-opening. So I'm happy to share that with my vulnerability, with your audience. The first pivot was, , one where I had saved this [00:03:00] multi-billion dollar company from closing down and I was going to receive my award and I'm going to a boardroom in, in reflection. It was a boardroom, but I didn't know that. And I'm going up the stairs to the door. And my hand is almost on the door. And this very dignified gentleman comes behind me and says, You must be lost, go to the receptionist to get a guidance.

It was at that point upon reflection, I realized you just saved the company and the individual who you saved doesn't perceive you as the person, who could be receiving this award. Now, my award came in the mail four weeks later. And I can't even began to [00:04:00] explain how I felt about it. Other than to say, I channelled those feelings into decisive action. I sought a sponsor. And I immediately went into pivot mode and, , got an MBA. And that MBA allowed me to look above what I called it, that first pivot, my cement ceiling. So you hear about a glass ceiling. You can see what's above you, you know, it's there and you're trying to figure out how to get there. A cement ceiling is, I didn't even see what was behind that door. And it was obvious to me. I never was going to see what was behind that door and hitting my head against the cement ceiling could only result in a lot of pain. So that first pivot, it was the first pivot to just reinvent myself, because clearly [00:05:00] a chemical engineer with distinction and a graduate degree in chemical and saving a company ,was not going to be enough to grow in this organization. So that's the first pivot. I'll give you a few more pivots. Cause I know we've got a short amount of time .After I graduated from business school and got a really cool degree. Went to Hong Kong finished my second year. Was chased down by a consulting firm. They literally found me in Hong Kong. Nobody knew my forwarding information. So I felt pretty special and, , went to work for that company, ultimately, and then there was 9/11. So every most people, most people, at least in the States know where they were and they know what occurred in their lives when 9/11 occurred. So I happen to [00:06:00] be at a really high point in my career. At least I felt like I was, and then there was tragedy all around me. A great amount of tragedy, and it was a very personal reflection of what would happen in my life. So my husband was living in, a different state, while , I was living in New York, you know, just living the New York, fast paced, you know, life's great dream. And he basically said, we're not moving our family to New York. It's way too different, to different too difficult, too, too dangerous, just those three D's. And so I had to pivot again. Now, what I didn't tell you is that I had three kids in addition to my marvellous husband and I had to pivot toward my family this time, that first period pivot was [00:07:00] away from my family in a different country. I'm grasping at the stars in my career. This next pivot was more about how do you embrace your family while doing well and continuing to grow? So Booz Allen and that was the company I was with, gave me the opportunity to completely shift, I literally had to quit one job in our commercial business and hopefully get hired into our technical business that advised the federal government. There was no transfer. So I literally lost my job. I was unemployed. Let's let's just let that wave over you. I was unemployed for 6 long painful months while the other part of Booz Allen decided whether they wanted me or not. So in this second pivot again, I'm very humble, humble. You can think of these as [00:08:00] peaks and valleys, I'm definitely in a valley at this point, hoping I can get an opportunity to go to the next company .They take me in, but because I came from the ivory tower in our commercial business to our federal business, all of that came with me. And so I was given this test, that nobody else wants. In a place that nobody else wanted to go, and I was able to transform that tiny little task into a, almost a billion dollar business. And so I went from that valley to another peak. Well guess what? Here comes my last pivot and then I'll let this story go. My business is really going well and I've got another pivot I got to make because my baby, my daughter wants to go to college and my [00:09:00] career is just taking over, just overshadowing my family once again. And here's my husband. He says, look, I raised the boys, your daughter's 14. She needs her mom. Guess what? Charlotte, you got to make some tough decisions. So I pivoted again, I went from running my almost billion dollar business to going to a company that's in systems engineering. And what was enticing was that Charlotte, here are the benefits your daughter's gonna have a mom, she's got to get into a marvellous college because you're going to treat your daughter as if you're treating your clients, which is like, they're going to be successful. And while you're, while you're taking this sabbatical, I literally looked at this pivot as a sabbatical, a chance to rest, refresh, and stretch myself. And so I went to the best possible place, you could go for systems engineering. And, you know, with the intent of getting a PhD while being a great mom. [00:10:00] And so I went to the MITRE corporation. And then again, the universe just will not let me stay mediocre. I have to stretch. I have to grow. I have to make a positive impact. That's why I exist to make a positive impact on the world. And so in my efforts to get her into , a military institution, it was West Point. You have to get Congressional approval. So here I go again, I'm hobnobbing with individuals who are going to help us get a Congressional, nomination. And in the process, I began to advising our nation's leaders. So here we are back at that peak again. Good news. She gets into school. She graduates ,fast-forward, great career advising at MITRE, making a difference convening heads of state, heads of business, heads of [00:11:00] academia in ways that make the world safer. And I'm at this next juncture. Another pivot by the way, building a new capability here at Underwriter's Laboratories. Long story short, you gotta be humble. You gotta be prepared to pivot and you gotta be prepared to change and grow and, and lean in to that pain. Thank you for that.

Host: And just sticking with the whole idea of the cement ceiling and all the pivoting that you had to do,. You had degrees in engineering, then you went on to do a master's of business administration. Do you believe you had to try harder because you were a woman and a woman of colour?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. Why? Not my mom, I told you I had 10 siblings. Guess what? Eight of those are girls eight girls, two boys. [00:12:00] And my mom would always say. To this day, she's 96 and I'm 50 blahblahblah. I'm not going to say much, but she would say, you know, we've done as God has commanded us. And yet there's . there's room to, her way of saying, you can be the best that you can possibly be. And yet there's room, there's always room to striving and growing and do better. And she would always say, as we were leaving, in addition to that, be the best one there. You have to be 10 times better to be noticed. Because here's the thing, when you walk in a room and you're not saying anything, the way you look, the way you dress, the colour of your skin , your gender, they're screaming out things to people, and you're not saying anything. So when you speak, when you engage, [00:13:00] when you, make an impact. It needs to scream louder, then the way you look. And, and so as a result that has stuck with me, I show up very subdued. I wear boring clothes and boring colours. So that the only thing you hear is the intonation of my voice. The, the meaning of my narrative, the purpose of my intent, hopefully that's what shines through. And of course the outcomes and the results of my actions so that you don't see the person, you just see the results.

It is, it is painful. It is true. I [00:14:00] wish I could tell you, the world is different just is not. There's this notion of intersectionality. And when you think of intersectionality, you think, oh, they're just making excuses. Well, when you live it, you know, right away, it's not an excuse. It's real. I challenge anyone listening to search for intersectionality to see what I mean.

Host: And clearly you've had a lot of life lessons, but did you have a mentor? Someone you looked up to, inspire you, to be where you are today and what significant life lessons did that help you learn along the way?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Oh, my gosh. Did I have mentors? So I mentioned my sister and I, I'm not going to say the name of the sisters because I have so many, I don't want to. Can't pick favourites. But what I can tell you about [00:15:00] mentors there, wasn't just one. I like to say that I have a , portfolio of mentors and I liken it to, um, the president's cabinet or advisors, you know, the most powerful leader in, in your universe wherever you are in the world, that president, that prime minister, that leader has advisers. And so I formed what I call my board of trustees and I've aligned them with my life goals and, and I have five goals. One about spirituality. I believe there's a, a larger power beyond who I am around my intelligence, my intellectual curiosity. I like to grow there and stretch my professionalism and how I show up connect and engage with leaders who are going to help scale and [00:16:00] celebrate my mission in the world. My physicality, I gotta be a corporate athlete so I can actually show up. And then the way I impact the world, my, my social impact. So there, those are like 5 areas where I want to holistically make an impact. And as you can imagine, I've got advisors along each one of those. Mentors along each one. And I try to get mentors who. Ready for this? Who don't look like me, who are different cultures .Different genders. Who stretch me beyond my understanding. Who make me better than I ever thought possible. I stretch for mentors who just might [00:17:00] say no. So I aim high for my mentors. I aim across, for my mentors and I aim low for my mentors. They come from all angles, all perspectives. My youngest mentor is 19 years old. A hacker a person who keeps me sharp in the ways of cybersecurity. My oldest mentor is 95. My mom. Keeps me humble. She focuses me on my spirituality, why I exist to love and to, to be loved. So I have a range of mentors and to pick out just one just seems inadequate.

Host: Wow. An entire board of mentors. The reason why I came to the question of mentors and it's such a fabulous way that you've put it is because when you look [00:18:00] at the state of women in science and engineering degrees, they make up only less than 20% of the workforce after excelling academically, there are just so few inspirational stories of leadership and operational excellence like yours. What would it take to change that reality?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Whoa, what a question I'm conflicted. I'm conflicted by the question, because I have to wonder if that statistic includes Founders owners. I always tell my kids, I really don't want you to be an employee. I really want you to be an employer. I want you to be an Owner or Founder.

I want you to live into what makes you just gleam inside. I want you to thrive and that isn't always being an employee [00:19:00] and they look at me and they say, mom, but you're a Chief Operating Officer. That's pretty cool. And I say, guess what? I'm still an employee. I'm not the owner. I'm not the founder. I'm an employee. I serve at the pleasure of the CEO who serves at the pleasure of the board. So I still haven't answered your question. I just wanted to give you some background and context into why I'm going to respond the way I'm responding. Now, having said that, how are we going to get women from 20% to a percentage that actually reflects, other women in our stakeholder base, the women who are consumers, the women who accept services.

How do we do that?

A couple of ways, maybe more, but I'm only going to highlight two because I know we've got so [00:20:00] many more questions to explore together. One way, empower. Empower our women to engage in careers that they typically would not aspire to. So how do we empower them? We ensure that anything, anything that would impede them from pursuing a career is mitigated. So now we have to think about those things that impede women from pursuing careers. What are they? Is it access to education? Well, let's have programs that target, unashamedly target women to get [00:21:00] them toward careers that they pursue. Would it be our families? Raising, you know, children. Caring for elderly parents? Let's get assistance. Let's provide childcare. Let's provide elder care. Let's provide flexibility in work experiences. If you're caring for family by day, then perhaps we allow you to have hours that help you engage, when you are available to engage. Perhaps we allow, , jobs that don't necessarily require you to be in an office. You can be remote. I'm sure I have blind spots and I haven't covered everything. But that first thing is to empower by removing impediments. We got to discover what those impediments are and we got to mitigate them. [00:22:00] Together. That second thing is the desire. Now this gets very personal and it gets very personal quickly. There may be women out there who simply do not desire to be in the workforce. So how do you even work with that? I challenge us to accept if an individual chooses not to be in the workforce and let's discover what that means for an individual. Maybe we need to re-examine the statistic. I literally, in that 6 months, when I wasn't working, I tried to be a stay at home mom. I had three kids. That's the workforce. It's hard work. Should we call that work? So maybe we revisit the statistic and we [00:23:00] determine what work really means. And then revisit this question because I'm not, I'm not so sure I am, I'm scratching my head as I'm answering this on this second part around desire. Maybe we just respect a percentage of these individuals who choose not to engage in work. I'm doing air quotes,' work' as the person who put that statistic together ,defines work. So how do we define work? Scratching my head on that one.

Host: And sticking with the idea of desire. And so if we assume women desire to be counted in what are the avenues and possibilities available for diverse groups in the arena of Safety Sciences, Research, and Standard Development?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: So assuming they do desire, okay, you got me there. [00:24:00] Okay. You got me. So now I'm dealing with women who definitely do desire, who really want it.. Now, ask me that question again.

Host: So if they do desire and want it, what are the avenues and possibilities available for them in the arena of Safety Sciences, Research and Standard Development, because it is a pretty large and wide area.

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Wow. It's a huge area. So this is a fun question because it invites everyone, anyone, and everyone. If, you are interested in being in standards. It assumes that you are aware of the applications of those standards. Okay. So now, if we're thinking about the application of the standards that opens up a window [00:25:00] into every aspect of our lives, When you think about Underwriters Laboratories. And I was doing my research to get my position. I read something that said Underwriters Laboratories insignia , where we, you know, test ,inspect and certify products before they go into market, into our homes. It said, don't quote me on it. I'm doing the danger myself here. As many as 90 times nine zero. Now that number, I'm just going to say air quotes, 90 times. A lot of times, just say a lot of times in your home, in your workplace, in your car, as you're if you're flying, you might just see that emblem, that, that certificate. So that basically means this. If you are at least aware of how that standard will be used to [00:26:00] ensure the safety of devices in your workplace, in your place of play in your place of matriculation, if you're aware, that's the first thing. The second thing is understanding. So now you need to understand how standards are created. If you can understand cooperation, collaboration, ensuring consistency across processes, you can, most people can. Then guess what? Welcome to the table. So broad audience that understands the application of standards and how they ensure that our products are safe. Bring it in in a little bit more to understanding the processes , the core processes [00:27:00] necessary in establishing standards, and then bringing it in a little bit more. There is science. There is technology. Perhaps having an understanding, having an education that allows you to ask complex questions, simple questions, but certainly allowing you to explore your intellectual curiosity around the specifics for any given standard. If you've got that as a proclivity, come to the table. Awareness, understanding, intellectual curiosity. What you've probably heard me not say is you haven't heard me say, get an engineering degree. You didn't hear me say, get a computer science degree. You didn't hear me say that you need [00:28:00] to be a rocket scientist. What you heard me say is intellectual curiosity, a person with a legal degree could come to the table. A person with a history degree could come to the table, a person who is very comfortable with large amounts of data and understands analytics and synthesis. Welcome. Welcome to the table. I want to ensure that I answer this question in a way that no one feels excluded. Everyone feels like they have an opportunity to engage . If you see a position out there around our standards and engagement, I want you to go for. it I want you to reach out to me in whatever avenue you see, me and social media, because there is an opportunity to engage.

Host: Interesting. So it's that intellectual curiosity, that's really going to count women and other diverse groups in, but [00:29:00] what is an important factor in developing truly global standards? How can countries be on the same level playing field when it comes to standards and the mission to be unified and more inclusive?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Yes, yes. Yes. So the word in and of itself, means commonality. It implies, it implies commonality. It implies repeatability. It implies consistency. It implies trust and implies all of these things. And you might think that as an engineer with a PhD, a doctorate degree in engineering, I would give you a very scientific answer. Instead, I'm going to give you an answer that is perhaps more difficult to even achieve. When we attempt standards across our [00:30:00] planet. It means that we have to open ourselves up to appreciate the cultures that will be impacted by the standard. What works in one nation may not work in another nation for very obvious reasons. And these could be blind spots to us. So what I say as the answer is opening ourselves up to listen and to learn, before taking action. That is the most important thing that we can do as humans .To listen, to learn and then internalize and process and determine what the [00:31:00] standard will mean for the culture that it's in, what are the implications of it? That's the critical thinking part. So these are the things that are very important, being open to listening and learning, and then taking what you've learned, your sensing and apply the critical thinking. To then have a standard that is robust across multiple cultures. That is the most important part. The collaboration piece. When we create standards, and I say, we, I mean, not just Underwriters Laboratories, I mean, any organization that is in the business of designing standards. It is [00:32:00] imperative to ensure that bias is not in the standard. That it's, that it's a consensus approach. Thus listen, learn critical thinking, open collaboration for consensus approach to building standards. That's the real value.

Host: And how important is it to keep the conversation going, on why standards matter so much in the field of science and engineering, especially across gender and other diversities across the globe.

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Why standards matter so much? You would think that I would give an Underwriters Laboratories answer and that would show bias because it's my job. Of course, I'm going to say standards matter so much because I'm in the business of standards, but I'm actually gonna give you [00:33:00] a response from, another part of my life when I was responsible for transportation security for our nation, moving millions of people every day, moving commerce across the globe safely and securely. In that position while it was certainly advising on transportation, security impacting our globe. It was incumbent upon us to have standards because a standard is a common language. It allows all of us who speak millions of languages with even more dialects, to come [00:34:00] together in one perspective, we all converge on one perspective, it is a common point of understanding and behaving and designing and innovating. It brings us together as one. Now, why is that so important? Why is it so important for us as a globe to converge as one on any given topic? Well, for safety, for security, for sustainability. In these cases, as humans, we divorce ourselves from all of those other things that I call noise and we focus in on that one signal of humanity and not many people would think of, [00:35:00] okay, Charlotte, you're stretching it. You're going from humanity to standards. Okay. Scratch your head on that. But, but bear with me, bear with me here. If we all converge on the power of one. One view that will keep us safe, secure, and sustainable. Let me give you an example. Okay. I'm going through an airport. I'm picking just one mode of transportation. I could pick rails. I could pick road. I could pick submarines. I could pick ships. I could pick any other mode of transportation. I just happened to pick air travel. Okay. So let's say I'm going on a trip.. And I'm going to, I'm going to drive. So I'm getting out of my car and parking in a parking lot. I'm gonna walk from the parking lot to the front of the airport. [00:36:00] Then go into the airport, going to go through security, get on the plane. Guess what? There may have been hundreds of standards between the time I got out of my car to the time I got on the plane, that, that govern the way technology engages for my security. Okay, Charlotte, that's word salad. Those are a lot of words. Well, what do you mean by that? Well, there are sensors that are detecting things about the way I look, the way I engage there might be cameras, sensors. There might be video. You know, I've put my hands up, you know, and I'm going through the sensor that checks for metal, [00:37:00] lots of sensors. Those sensors need a way to communicate. A standard is used to ensure that they have one language. These electronics to communicate without the standard the video, can't talk to the flat information. Can't talk to the screen that I just walked through to determine if I'm dangerous or not. So I've got to have all of these electronic gizmos, if you will, have one standard that drives the way they communicate. And that keeps me safe. Okay I'm getting boring. I'm getting nerdy. So sorry. I went from humanity to standards to gizmos that's a bit much. Pull me back in. I think

Host: that's a very powerful and yet grounded [00:38:00] explanation of the power of why standards matter. But if we were to get closing on the key lessons, you know, what would you say are two or three key leadership lessons that you've learnt in your scientific and business career that you would like to pass on to listeners of this conversation?

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Hmmmmmm, 2 or 3 leadership lessons. Number one, humility ,do not take yourself too seriously. And you know, humility. Don't take yourself too seriously. That's the first one. The reason I say that one is ,, if you're gonna live, you're gonna fail. Unless you're just hiding somewhere and you're not trying very hard or you're not stretching very far. Chances are you're gonna fail. So just, just be [00:39:00] humble, be willing to, to fail. I always tell people. If you haven't failed in your goal, you just haven't set any stretch goals. I I'm, I'm one of those people who embraces individuals who tell me that they've tried, they failed and they persevere. And so the second one is be humble and just have a sense of humour. That should be adequate enough for you to be okay with failing. And then the second thing is perseverance. I guarantee you, most of us have been rejected in some form or fashion, you know, I've tried for jobs. I didn't get them. My feelings were hurt.. And I'm grateful that I didn't get some of [00:40:00] those jobs because I ended up where I am now. It is a blessing that I didn't get. I'm so happy. I didn't get some of those jobs. Rejection was the best thing that ever happened to me. I mean, I survived 9/11 because someone didn't give me an interview. Guess what? Because I didn't get that interview. I didn't go to New York on that day. I went someplace else. Thank goodness for rejection. So, uh, perseverance. That's the second one. Don't take yourself too seriously. Persevere. And then the third one is. Be inclusive, be respectful. You're gonna get advice from lots of people. Listen to the person who is four levels below you. What they [00:41:00] have to say matters. It perhaps matters as much as your colleagues'. I open my door to any and everyone. And oftentimes that can be tough because there are a lot of people on the other side of that door, the thing is I listen to any and everyone that has a perspective so that I can then, you know, use my critical thinking, weigh it, assess it and consider it in the way I engage. So humble ,persevere and open, open to other perspectives.

Host: Listen, and I would say anyone who's listening to this podcast needs to listen to it right till the end. Because you've given us a lot to think about. Dr Charlotte Farmer. Thank you for taking out so much time to speak to us on the Word to [00:42:00] the Wise podcast.

Dr Charlotte Farmer: Thank you for having me I’m honoured.

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Our guest today Harshini Kanhekar is India’s first woman firefighter. She began shattering stereotypes by becoming the first woman in 46 years to graduate from the National Fire Service College (NFSC) in Nagpur.

Then, from time on the frontline in the fire services Harshini moved to the Oil and National Gas Corporation to be the first woman to handle offshore drilling services.

For Harshini this is all in a day’s work, after all she believes no field of work belongs to any gender and that applies especially to alternative careers in the fields of science and engineering which address issues of safety and security.

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to envision a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Safer India Today.

Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform.

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Harshini Kanhekar:

Host: Harshini Kanhekar, a real pleasure to have you on the Word to the WISE podcast.

Harshini Kanhekar: I thank you very much Shivraj.

Host: Describe for us your journey. When and how did your passion for the frontline services first begin?

Harshini Kanhekar: I would say our passion can drive us to complete our dream, but terms and conditions applies. There are two types of passion. One is hobby based, where you can just do practice, practice, and practice. And second is study based. So for this, I should say two points. If your passion is study base, you should choose you your subjects wisely. And second is chance. So I would like to tell you that you will be surprised to know, becoming a firefighter or doing fire engineering was never my dream. It happened accidently. Whenever I was pursuing my Bsc. Graduation. I enrolled myself for NCC (National Cadet Corps) Air Wing, which, and I would say that was the biggest turning point of my career because when I reached to NCC unit the admissions were already over and I was helplessly standing there and requesting them to get me enrolled. Our commanding officer saw me, and he took my small interview, why I want to join NCC. So I answered him that, I really think NCC candidates are like mini soldiers. They are Staying away from their parents. They're staying in the tents, they are doing their own things. They are washing utensils and polishing their shoes and all. So I considered them a mini, soldier, and I want to live that life because I would like to join armed forces in future and serve my nation. So he was very much impressed with my answer and on the spot he gave me admission, in NCC Air Wing. And that's why I'm here talking to you. That was the chance I got. And my entire life has been changed.

Host: And was your family supportive of all your choices and dreams?

Harshini Kanhekar: Oh, yes, of course. I should mention my father is very keen about education and he always tried new things in educations. Whenever we offer any competitive exams, he used to get us it's syllabus. He used to take us to that approach towards education is very, very systematic. And of course respective college building. And he used to tell us about the job opportunities out of it. So when I was undergraduate, I tried many exams. I gave bank clerical, bank PO exams just to get habitual of this competitive exam. One fine day, my father bought me a form of CAT (Common Admission Test) exam in which I was not at all interested. And I said, my father. Papa, this is not my field and I cannot pass this. It needs big dedication. Then my father replied, Beta (child) who asked you to pass this I just want, you should do your paper black, and you should go through this exam. You should practice this, this kind of exam, and you should know importance of time and important of negative marking. So, in such kind of atmosphere, I was in my house during my childhood. And for a small example, I can give during shopping with my father in a clothes shop the shopkeeper was showing me some dress and he was requesting me and convincing me to purchase that dress, which I was not liking much. That time my father said if she will like it, she will purchase it. So don't force us. So I got this kind of freedom to select my things beginning from the dress, through to career which is the biggest thing. So I got big support from my family.

Host: That's fabulous Harshini, but now you were the first woman ever to graduate from the National Fire Service College (NFSC). Clearly quite a male dominated institution at the time. W, what was it like first approaching the college, then going through the entire process of applying, getting over the hurdles of admission and then finally facing the whole interview process?

Harshini Kanhekar: Yes. As I told you, it was never my dream.After Bsc. I took admission in MBA. I was not at all interested. During the time I was trying for armed forces, I was searching for the advertisement in the papers for Army, Navy and Air Force. That time one of my friends said you want to wear a uniform right? (hindi) Then go buy a Fire College form (hindi).. So I was like is it? Fire College has a uniform? (hindi). Only for that uniform thing. I purchased that from, and I was unaware of the fact that it's a gents college and still people doesn't know about this national college it is situated in, Nagpur. And it is only one in Southeast Asia. So as I told you about my father, I showed my form to my father. As per his habit he took me to National Fire Service College on his Bajaj (scooter). When, we were entering into the college, everybody was looking at us, like how, how this girl is coming into the college? They thought there is a general post office building, which is adjacent to National Fire Service College and this is a sister building they look alike. So they thought they might have come to drop some letter, and by mistake they have come to National Fire Service College, but they were not knowing that I was having that format in my hand.. And then went to the dias and I told the person standing over there. That sir, I want to take admission here. He looked at me up and down and he said; Madam, this is a boy's college, try elsewhere (hindi). I said,Sir, the Ad only says Bsc graduates, nothing else (hindi). So he said I teach here I should know. Try the Army,Navy or Air Force this is not for you. (hind). I was so surprised. I was so angry. How dare he say to me like that? This is not your thing because you are a girl.. And I was very upset with the fact and I went back to home. And I filled that form and I remember the last day when I filled that form along with a friend Shilpa, we both filled the form and when to submit the form and there was some person was standing over there looking at us and laughing at us and very cruelly he talked to his friend, like, you know, girls are fighting for 33% reservation. I said, sir. I don't believe in 33, I believe in 50 50. And I folded my form and put it in the drop box and went home like a burning rocket. Now I will show these people I will come to this college and I will take admission only here (hindi),just this very college to show them (hindi). So I'm very very thankful to that man only because of him, I'm talking to you right now.

Host: And, clearly the interview process wasn't easy. So what was it like and what intrigued you about it so much that you did not mind the next challenge. How different is it for you as a woman to face that kind of opposition?

Harshini Kanhekar: Actually, it's a residential course, . The very first thing people doesn't know about this college itself, I was one of them. And when I got selected for this post the first stage was the written exam. I passed the written exam. And after that there was medical examination. Okay. So there was board of senior doctors there , and everybody was surprised looking at me, A girl has passed and come here (hindi)? They were not having medical criteria for girls, into that advertisement itself. It was a big, big thing that, a girl has passed (hindi). So they asked. Childit is such a tough course, can you handle it? (hindi)I said yes Doctor!. Don't know Why not I will definitely manage (hindi). So that time I passed my medical and the last stage was the personal interview. And up to that time, the news was was being circulated. in the National Fire Service College thata girl is coming to study here! After ages and so long! (hindi) they get the news that a girl is coming to their college to study. And everybody had come just to take a look at me. I was sitting in the common room with my father and all my certificates, and everybody was coming. My seniors, my super seniors, all came to just look at me and they were bending down and looking at me and I really enjoyed that time. And when my number came, when I walked through that passage, when I walked through that staircase and went inside the director's room. To my every step, everybody was saying, you are the first girl who is walking through this passage. . You are the first girl who is climbing the staircase. You are the first girl who is entering into the Director's room. And that was a big thing for them.

Host: So clearly it was a first and a lot of things must've been going through your mind as you walked up the steps and went through that whole experience, what did it tell you about handling life experiences that continue to challenge many women. And looking back is there anything you would do differently?

Harshini Kanhekar: Yes, my interview was very much challenging for me and for them also, because first time a girl was passed that exam and came for the interview. They all were really surprised to see me. They asked me some general questions first, a study related question. And after that, they started , all mind games, questions like, you know,Harshini , you will be the Kiran Bedi of Fire services, how you're feeling, you know, there are continuing fires in the Kuwait city and other cities. And you have to fight fire for two to three, three months, so will you be able to do that? In short the, they wanted to check my psychology, my confidence level, and I will do it or not. . So all the time I used to answer them. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes,I will do it, I will do it..I will do it. . Give me chance. Give me chance. Give me a chance. And lastly, I, I had to say Sir if I have to fail so let me have a chance to fail as well? (hindi). There were 5 grace marks for NCC certificate holders, as I was having it. So I had my certificates in my box and I gave it to them. They just acknowledged it and gave it back to me. And I said, I have some more certificates to show I was having near about 70 certificates, seven zero in all extra curricular activities. Yeah, and they say that no, no, those are not required. I said, sir, I want to show you and forcefully, I showed them all my certificates. Then only they got to know about me, more about me. They said ok Harshini you play karate, you play basketball you know Kathak too, you write slogans also. Okay. You do posters also, and you can draw Rangoli also., . So I would say interview is very, very crucial time for every student who only in that stipulated timewe have to show our whole personality to the interviewer. So interview was very, very important. Yes I would say in our society in our Indian society, women's were supposed to sit at home and not to study and just look after kids and kitchen. So hats off to our constitution that we have equal opportunity and rights to take education. Yes, I would say a woman. Why only women, women, and men, everyone should follow their dreams. So we should see dream first.

Host: Ah! Now your challenges didn't end at the interview or admission process, as you entered the gates of NFSC, how did you meet the demands of the course? Give us a sense of the day in the life of early training in a firefighters career?

Harshini Kanhekar: Yes. The very first day I would like to share when I got my uniform, my pride. I went to the college. That person who met me on the first day, he was there at the gate. I went to him, I saluted him and said Jai hind! remember what you said to me? and in a very embarrassed way he said welcome madam. (hindi)And he was the person in the next batches who used to guide girls to how to fill the form and put it, put it in the right place. This was the revolution. But for that I had to work hard. I have to show my strength. . So taking admission.. Up to taking admission. It was Harshini Kanhekar, but when I enter into it, I was the first girl! And till date I'm the first girl. So I was always been Guinea pig. Everybody was looking at me that she going for any mistake, she do any mistake and many of them were wanted that I should do any mistake and they should point out finger or. But I didn't give any chance in entire this my tenure in the college. I didn't go late. I didn't take any leaves and I didn't get any personal punishment. And for this, I work really hard And the course is very vast, very beautiful and it is a kind of 70% practical and 30% theory. So we have to go to college thrice a day. It's not like other general colleges. Like you are taking your bag and going to college and coming back in the evening. No, we have to attend this college thrice a , Day. Morning, 6.30 dungaree, gumboot helmet. And we used to do firefighting drills mock drills. Again, 9 o'clock our squad uniform and other classes and again, 3.30 in the afternoon, again, dungaree, gumboot and helmet and the firefighting drills.

Host: And what was the experience during the practical attachment test?

Harshini Kanhekar: See this was three and half year course during my time. Now, the criteria has been changed. So my seventh semester was a practical attachment. so we have to go to any two Metro cities and serve there. So we went to Kolkata Behala Fire station for three months and Delhi fire station for three months. So during our Kolkata practical attachment we did mainly industrial visits and during my Delhi practical attachment uh, we actually fought with fire, real fires. So uh, during my 3 months stay there, attended more than 40 fire and emergency calls there. I learned many things. We were getting posted. Daily we were getting deployed on different types of vehicles,fire tender, foam tender, water browser, rescue responder , different kinds of vehicles. And we have to attend the related calls. And I used to go for night calls and day-night calls. And we really were waiting for this practical attachment because during our college practical, we used tofight mock drills only, and we were waiting for the real fire. So we used to say to our one station officer, sir. we want to see big fires! (hindi) he used to laugh - what kind of firefighters are you? (hindi). So, because we wanted to learn and learn and not only firefighting, we did the rescue calls. We did animal rescue calls, drowning rescues. And so,many.

Host: So it must have been quite demanding. So how can young women who want to enter the space today, be better prepared?

Harshini Kanhekar: See, I would say you should be passionate towards your goals. You don't have to prepare much your passion will take you to that level. Because before joining NFSC,, I was preparing for SSB interview, Service Selection Board. So I used to go for some classes. For that we have to prepare for some psychological tests. So that time I used to mug up about some common questions. If you are going for any, SSB interview and if interview is asking you questions that tell me 10 things, important things about your city. That time I used to mug up the things like there's biggest medical college in Asia in Nagpur. .There is only one Fire Services College in Nagpur, National fire service college, which is only one in entire Southeast Asia. So I used to mug up the things, but I never thought that I will take admission in that college only. So these kinds of preparation SSB preparation or psychological tests, my NCC tenure made me really strong enough to sustain on the ground duties and the firefighting for the longer time. So I would say only passion can sustain you to do your dream work.

Host: Now you joined the large Oil and Natural Gas Corporation or ONGC in the onshore fire services. And then they deputed you to the offshore, drilling. Something quite off limits to women until I think 2013. So how did that make you feel about the job you were asked to do?

Harshini Kanhekar: Oh, yes. When I passed my BFire, I got selected by ONGC Oil and Natural Gas Corporation. I got posted, I got posted at Mehsana asset, , which is in Gujarat. That time people used to say that, you know, womans cannot work in off shore. This is not a woman's world. This is only a man's world and blah, blah, blah. Okay. So that time. I was thinking What is that? I asked my boss, I want to visit offshore too. So he says, see, I cannot post it there, but I can for your visit there. So during our induction training , those people who were posted at onshore they asked to go to off shore to just see how the offshore world is. And I'm talking about year, 2006. When I joined ONGC in year 2006, I went to Pawan Hans our heli- base at Juhu, Mumbai. I went there in my jeans and shoes, safety shoes. Everybody was looking at me? How has this girl come, only men go there (hindi) Oh! She must be from HR must have come with someone's form (hindi) kind of thing. So I said I'm a fire officer. I'm going to offshore to this. ICP platform .They all were looking at me This girl is going offshore? (hindi)that was a big thing. They prepared my manifest. I got into the chopper . And when I landed there, everybody was looking at me. A girl has come here! (hindi) I have kept that manifesto still with me, it is very precious for me. So I went there and I toldmy boss , I just don't want to go and come back.I want to stay there.. So I did some fire audit. I stayed there and I've seen everything there. What fire systems are there and why girls cannot be part of offshore services? And I came back and in 2010 my management, I'm very much thankful to my management. Our Head Fire Services called me up one fine day and said Harshini you are a fire engineer and your, other batchmates are also fire engineers. And they are getting exposure of offshore services. Only because of girl, if you're not getting exposure of offshore services, then what is the meaning of your education? So we are planning to post you to offshore drilling services. We are creating a. post you there. Are you interested to go? I said sir (hindi) I'm dying for it. And they created a post for me there, just to get exposure of off shore and very, very thankful day. I'm talking about year 2010 and that time my boss was there and he used to send me for fire enquiry committee. Once he sent me with the enquiry committee, I went with 2 people. And I did. their fire inquiry and then came back. From next time he sent me alone, . Now you are experiencing right? And now you should go alone. That time. I didn't bother for other facilities. Like I should get a separate room. I should get separate facilities. There was no facility, no infrastructure at all. I used to get uh, electrical engineers's room or mechanical engineers's room. And they used to come and take their dungaree and gumboot and say madam use our space (hindi). I didn't make any tantrums that time that I should get some separate, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. So I used to go there alone and staying without any infrastructure there. I did my work. And in 2013, one policy declared in ONGC that women can be posted at offshore services. And it started in a regular basis of 14 days on of duties. So it was a big, big, big thing.

Host: And was it important to show that you could do it better, especially since at the time you also got married and the general view is that women face the biggest dilemma of balancing it all - a career and a family.

Harshini Kanhekar: Oh, yes. I would say uh, yes. People used to say such things after the marriage, if the schedule rule changes. But most importantly I would share when I got pregnant and I used to join my services. At that time. That was really very crucial time because. At that time only people can make loose comments about you that if you're pregnant and you're taking rest or you're going for some medical checkups and you're coming late, that ,time people get a fine chance to make loose comments. And that time I was very cautious that I don't want to give any chance to anyone to figure me out. So I, I worked doubly hard during that time, and I didn't give any chance to anyone. So , yes, we have to prove in such scenarios, doubly hard.

Host: And what's really fantastic is that you're also an experienced biker you've traveled to world's highest motorable road, the Leh Ladakh's Khardung-la pass and to Kargil? Is it important to also pursue your passion and scale new heights in that area as well as pursue your career?

Harshini Kanhekar: Yes, of course Shivraj. Because I don't want to die as only fire officer yaar!. I want to pursue my hobbies and enjoy my hobbies. One experience I would like to share. I went , for some training in our training centre.ONGC's own recognized training center. And after the training, I was catching the bus and one girl came running to me and , she came running to me and asked, are you Harshini? I said, yes, next thought came in my mind that, oh, now she would say you are the first lady fire engineer. But no, what she said are you a biker? I felt so good that there is one more identity than being a fire officer. And I said yes, I'm a hardcore biker and I'm very thankful to my husband. He inspired me. He's my inspiration. We met in a Biker Club and got married. . And he always inspired me for the solo rides. I did my solo rides in Arunachal, Meghalaya on the rented bike only because of him. And the one more thing ,when I was pregnant, I was not able to ride bike. So that time My husband also did not take any ride, because I was not able to ride. . So this is the combination I got in my life. And I'm very thankful to him.

Host: And you also conferred with the NITI Aayog's Women Transforming India award . How did that award make you feel and what did it mean to you?

Harshini Kanhekar: This means a lot to me Shivraj. because I, I would say this is the kind of receipt I got for all the hard work I gone through during my tenure in that college. And till date I'm going through. Even in 2018, I received First Lady Award by hand of the honorable President of India at Rashtrapati Bhawan and I met many first ladies in all the fields. I met the first Mines Officer, I met the first Marine engineer. I've met many firsts, and I can understand what the first girl goes through and so hats off to all the first ladies , who did hard work and open the door to other girls to enter in that particular fields. .

Host: That is really, truly fantastic. So how critical has the role of women become in addressing and advancing public safety challenges in India?

Harshini Kanhekar: See as I told you, I meet with many first girls.. There are first in army, Navy, Air Force, Fire, Marine, and many things where we can relate with public safety. So! Hats off to the first ladies in all the fields who has opened the field for other womans. And yes, now we can see, there are many girls in all the fields. Now women's are fighting , women's are flying fighter planes. So these are a kind of new policies are coming in. We cannot describe any area on gender basis. Okay. So this question is kind of not relevant, I would say because safety is not any genders general scene. Okay. Not any book can say that this can be read by men only, or women only, or not any bike say this can be rode by male or a female. Okay. So no any field is a gender based. So I think all fields are neutral and for everyone.

Host: And finally, Harshini for women listening to this interview from your experience as a continuing frontline engineer and a firefighter, what would you tell them about preparing for a career in this field of science and engineering? Most importantly, what are the opportunities out there now?

Harshini Kanhekar: See, I would say parents plays a very important role in that where your child is inclined to, which subject. Okay. So I'm thankful to my parents that they got to know my passion. Where is my passion is so we should dream first. We have to follow our dreams. When I. got my firefighters dress . I'm so fortunate that I'm the first woman in India who donned that dress and went to the college and everybody was looking at me. By wearing this dungaree, gumboot and helmet is she going to a (hindi) , fancy dress competition. But they were not knowing where I was actually going (hindi) and they got to know afterwards.When , all media came to me and they got to know about this college and about this school. So there is no gender bias for any field. And we should dream for our hobbies, we should follow our dreams and all now I think there are no any field left which are not open for women. So we, women can try for all the fields where they pursue.

Host: And what are the skills or aptitude they should have.

Harshini Kanhekar: See at the beginning, when I told you about, there are two types of passion, one is hobby based and one is study based. Okay. So if it is study base, we should choose our subjects very wisely because when I did my 10th class. I was not liking maths very well. So I was not going to take a math subject further, but my sister told me. You should go for the general science. You should take all the subjects because your mind might change afterwards after some time. If you say after 12 that yeah, I want to become engineer but you will be not having maths, a maths subject with you, then you will not be able to become engineer. So that turning point, you know, a subject selection is very important. So we should be very thoughtful during our subjects selection. And this is called this, I would say , skill. Whatever subject as I wanted to pursue my Armed Forces, because when I joined this National Fire Service College, my father took extra efforts to make me perfect. Make me perfect as a fire officer Driving truck, driving heavy vehicle is compulsory for us. So I used to learn a truck. I learned driving trucks. I used to park the truck beside my house, and everybody was looking at our place. And they are mad doing all this they said (hindi) And my father used to say 'My daughter must be perfect' (hindi) I was not knowing swimming. He trained me to swim. He trained me to drive a heavy vehicles and he made me perfect. This kind of skill, you have to be ready enough to choose our career or in which career you are inclined with.

Host: Harshini, thank you so much for sharing your inspiring story on the Word to the WISE podcast.

Harshini Kanhekar: Thank you so much. It was entirely my pleasure.

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In this episode we meet someone who leads from the front when it comes to the world of international safety standards, Sonya Bird, Director, International Standards at Underwriters Laboratories. Sonya, began her career at UL, 30 years ago, as a technical standards program manager and now leads teams across the globe. She was named Distinguished Member of Technical Staff at Underwriters Laboratories in recognition of her significant and sustained contributions to fulfilling UL’s public safety mission.

Sonya serves on various national and international forums, representing the United States on the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), as well as on various leading IEC task forces to harmonize best standards practices globally. Significantly, task forces on diversity and gender responsive standards and attaining the UN’s Sustainable Development goals. Sonya is a recipient of the IEC Thomas A. Edison award, for her exceptional achievements and dedicated service.

You can read along as you listen to the interview with Sonya here:

Host: Sonya Bird, thank you for speaking to us on the Word to the WISE podcast. Such a rich and varied experience but take us back to where it all began, from being a student of STEM to choosing a career path in safety and performance standards. How did that happen?

Sonya: From a young age, I loved math and science, and in my spare time I enjoyed puzzles, especially logic puzzles. I was a member of the competitive Math team in my high school, so I was one of those people who stayed after school to do more Math. Math and Science just made sense to me! I was lucky that my school counsellor and my father both steered me towards considering engineering when I went to college. Based on aptitude and interest tests, I ended up in electrical engineering. The labwork and power problems associated with electrical engineering really were just another form of logic puzzles! It all made sense to me!

When I was set to graduate from university, I saw an advertisement for an engineering job that also required good writing skills. I thought this was perfect descriptor for me – solid engineering degree with a desire and aptitude for writing. So I applied! That job was for an introductory engineering role in the standards department at Underwriters Laboratories. I applied, and in the process learned about Underwriters Laboratories and its long history of working for a safer world. The job – and the company – was such a perfect match for me! That was nearly 33 years ago, and I have been thrilled to be at Underwriters laboratories ever since!

Host: Your role is also not just a national or international one but also to lead global harmonisation of performance and safety standards. How challenging or satisfying has that been? What keeps you going?

Sonya: Initially, my role as standards project manager allowed me to focus on the safety requirements for a number of traditional UL standards, including ceiling fans, battery chargers, and portable tools. A number of industries – and the portable tool industry is a good example – desired to have requirements that were more global in nature. I began working with the portable tool industry on common requirements in the US and Canada, and that effort extended to more international work. It’s definitely satisfying to know that through standards development I could have a positive affect on a country’s safety system – but it is even more gratifying to know that my work addresses safety globally. Once I got involved in international standards, I actually became secretary for IEC TC 61 responsible for addressing safety of appliances for household use. This committee covers all types of appliances – from washing machines and clothes dryers to coffee makers and beauty care. I recall one issue that we addressed within that international committee. A delegate to the meeting had data that showed potential excessive surface temperatures on an oven door. While an adult may touch the door and feel the heat and pull away, a child may not recognize the danger immediately. The delegate had pictures of children’s hands that had received burns from touching the hot oven door for too long of a period of time. The committee was able to look at the requirements in the standard, as well as requirements in other related standards (such as UL’s standard for ovens) and introduced a change to the text to protect children from burns. You ask what keeps me going? This is what keeps me going – to recognize that standards have a direct impact on safety around the world. Through our work we hopefully have reduced the chance of other children burning their hands.

Host: And standards are a rather niche area, so if you were to break it down for our listeners, what would you say are the key requirements (especially for women in STEM) to excel in the field?

Sonya: I would say the requirements to succeed in standards development are 1 – a willingness to get engaged; 2 – communication skills, and 3 – positive attitude. First, I would suggest that women in STEM look for ways to get engaged in standards development. The area of standards development really benefits from having a diversity of inputs. This means that the standards committee is not made up of only product experts and manufacturers, but rather of individuals with varied backgrounds all bringing different experiences and information to the table. By getting engaged, individuals can learn the process, and can see how to contribute to standards development.

The second requirement – communication skills – applies to both written and verbal skills. Standards development takes place through written proposals and online collaborative sites, requiring those who participate to make their case in writing. But standards development also includes having working groups and technical committees meet in a room or virtual setting, so participants need to be able to speak up and explain their position. The third requirement – positive attitude – is not something you will necessarily see on a job description, but is an important characteristic. It is important to keep in mind that all people on a committee will not necessarily want to address an issue the same way. There will be debates and sometimes heated or passionate discussions. It is important to keep in mind that others on the committee have the same intent – to build a strong standard. Keeping a positive frame of mind is important.

Host: How important has diversity and gender become as factors in standard development?

Sonya: Within recent years, it has become apparent that the term diversity needs to be expanded to get even greater inputs in standards. As an example, the IEC established a task force to look at diversity within IEC standards development. I was asked to serve on this group. We identified that increased diversity was needed in 3 categories. The first being stakeholder diversity. Many who engage heavily at IEC have a manufacturing background, so it was agreed that additional stakeholder categories such as consumers and academia are needed. The second type of diversity is geographical diversity, meaning voices from a larger population of the world. Although a committee may have members from 30 countries, if 20 of those countries are from Europe then that is not necessarily a diverse technical committee. Increased participation from countries globally is needed. The third type of diversity identified was the need for gender diversity. This IEC TF noted that the majority of delegates, and hence a majority of technical committee officers and even board members are men. The TF agreed that having more female participation and leadership would be beneficial.

I think there has been an appreciation in recent years for the value of having younger people get involved in standards development. Consider the fact that younger people have grown up in a technological age. Many have always had a computer or tablet or in the case of my kids gaming system in the house. Compare that to my generation. I didn’t even touch a computer until I was in middle school – 8th grade, I think. Having younger voices at the standards development table can help technical committees consider all the electronic and connectivity possibilities that the older crowd may not consider.

Host: When you say one size cannot fit all, can you give us some real examples of recent efforts to develop safety and performance standards that specifically considered the needs of women?

Sonya: One example of the need for gender responsive standards that I am aware of is the example of the “crash test dummy” for evaluating impact of a car crash on the occupants in the car. There are cases cited that the dummies did not adequately reflect a woman’s body type. Consider that the seat belt may sit differently across a woman than a man – especially across a pregnant woman. It has been said that the dummies used for the test did not adequately reflect the female body type. Changes have been incorporated now to be more gender responsive in better considering the physical dimensions of females. I’d also like to share an example of a UL standard that is gender responsive. One example of a recently published standard which accounted for gender inclusivity is UL 3741, the Standard for Safety for Photovoltaic (PV) Hazard Control. This standard is intended to help reduce shock hazards for firefighters responding to emergencies on homes with PV systems. As research was collected for this standard, it was noted that physical characteristics such as body weight and skin sensitivity could have a direct effect on certain threshold limits for electricity, and that women tended to have lower threshold limits than most men. Both male and female firefighters were considered in the calculations of the potential current that could pass through a firefighter’s body during various firefighting interaction scenarios with a damaged PV array. As a result, for the protection of female firefighters, the standard uses DC body resistance data as modified for females, which is roughly 2/3 the limits for males.

Host: What are the other factors needed to make international standards development truly diverse and relevant globally?

Sonya: One other aspect to help standards be more effective is to rely on data where possible. Committees should try to obtain and use data that applies to a diverse population. Underwriters Laboratories is a unique organization in the standards development world, with world-class research taking place by in-house experts. The standards organization wants to take full advantage of that research and use it to keep UL standards current. We also want to be seen as a partner to our research family by helping to provide avenues for publication globally.

In addition to research teams, UL Standards includes a data science team, that is always looking for ways to utilize publicly available data to strengthen standards. I encourage other groups to consider where data may be valuable to show effectiveness of requirements, and areas where revision may be needed to address a specific demographic.

Host: You are also working on addressing UN Sustainable Development Goals, how can standards play a role in supporting the SDGs?

Sonya: Thank you for this question! The UN SDGs are so important at creating a better future for us all! I am so pleased to be a member of the IEC TF addressing SDGs. In that task force, we have seen a direct link between the standards development work and the SDGs. For example, consider standards for renewable energy and energy storage, both of which can help bring electricity to remote villages living off the grid. In addition, technical committees now consider the SDGs as they prepare new standards, encouraging the experts to think about sustainability in addition to safety.

Host: Given your mission, if you were right now addressing a workshop on Why Standards matter, what would be the key takeaways?

Sonya: I laugh a little at this question, because there is a hashtag used in the standards world that literally is “#standardsmatter.” Standards matter for so many reasons – they establish a baseline for addressing safety, security, and sustainability. They provide rules for product design, and they establish common requirements to facilitate trade across borders. And, as we just mentioned, they directly impact the people of the world through contribution to the UN SDGs.

Host: For those women listening to this conversation what is your one piece of career advice, that you believe has brought you this far?

Sonya: Don’t hold yourself back! I have never considered that I would in any way be hampered by being a woman. I have simply wanted to do the best job that I could, and meet the commitments that I have made. So, I encourage young women in STEM to do the same. Find your passion and look for ways to get involved. For me, that passion is knowing that I am making a difference globally in the areas of safety, security, and sustainability! SO, find your passion and get involved. Actively participate. Join project teams. Take on leadership roles. Build your network. And in all cases, do what you say you will do. Making commitments is easy – it’s the follow through that is hard.

Host: Sonya Bird, thank you ever so much for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

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In this episode, we speak to Ashwini Hingne Manager Climate at WRI or World Resources Institute.

Ashwini has a bachelor’s degree in Chemical Engineering and a Master’s in Public and Economic policy, specializing in Environmental and Resource Economics. Her work focuses on areas such as carbon pricing and sustainable development. So armed with an engineering background, she applies her learning in science and technology to the pressing need to tackle global warming.

Ashwini believes her science background will pave the way for others to work towards 'climate smart development'

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org.

You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Safer India Today.

Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform.

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Ashwini:

Host: Ashwini a real pleasure to have you on the Word to the WISE podcast.

Ashwini Hingne: Thanks, Shivraj it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Host: Your background is a rather interesting mix of engineering and economics and climate change. Now, if you were to look back at your formative years, studying science. What led you to what you're doing today?

Ashwini Hingne: I wish I could say that I knew exactly what I wanted to do, and I pursued it and here I am, but, uh, frankly, it's been a series of decisions and choices at different points in time. If I were to look back at my childhood days though, I remember I was always fascinated by the sciences and particularly chemistry. So even as a child, I remember I used to read every word on the back of packets and bottles to read all these ingredients and components. I think even during engineering, in fact, I thoroughly enjoyed studying all the chemical reactions and the designing and optimizing of processes, which I think a lot of people find very boring. So, but what I think truly attracted me to the sciences and especially chemistry is how I could relate it to the real world in so many ways. But when I completed my engineering, I really wanted to work in a space where I could use my learnings and skills in ways that could make things better. So not just at the process level, but also for the society and the world around us. And that's where climate change came in. So, my first job was as a climate change and sustainability consultant, where I helped businesses improve their environmental and climate performance while sustaining and improving financial outcomes. But a few years there just left me jaded. I mean, I felt disillusioned by the greenwashing and a lack of real actions, even where there was intent. So, what I learned was that climate actions, not just by corporates, but also by individuals, nations or societies are directly dependent on the economic case for it. And those policies that create the right incentives are what actually lead to real change. And that's why I then pursued my master’s in economics and public policy at the London school of Economics. There were very few options to move from engineering to something like economics and policy in India at the time. But I think things have changed a lot now. I believe tackling climate crisis really needs not just the technical solutions, but also the ability to view things and frame things from the economic policy and people lenses. So here I am at the World Resources Institute where my job really beautifully brings together my science background, my experience of working with companies, my economics and policy skills, as well as of course, my passion for a sustainable world.

Host: That's so interesting. Ashwini, so while you had the option to choose this path, then went about fulfilling your passion and your mission. When you look around at your peers at the time when you were doing engineering, would you say a large number of them stuck to the science and engineering field? Or did they veer off for reasons beyond their control?

Ashwini Hingne: Um, well, it's hard to say, but I would say yes, but if you ask me how many of my peers are still in pure engineering jobs then probably a fewer proportion. But today the world is quite flexible, and I really believe that the sciences really laid the foundation of mine and their careers. So, I know a lot of people who are really doing great things while using what they've learned, but, but really making a difference in the world and in ways that may not appear to be purely engineering or science. But I think that that the foundation really still remains.

Host: But when you say in terms of proportion, you're still saying it is a lower proportion than, than what you'd hoped it would be. So, what do you think is preventing many women, scientists or engineers from taking their careers to the next level? Switching from excellence in academia. To research and careers and jobs linked to science and engineering at a later stage. What do you think is really holding back?

Ashwini Hingne: So, there are two parts of this. And specifically, when we talk about women, I think one is the bias against their competence and the other is the bias against their commitment to what they're doing. So just to give you an example, I graduated at the top of my batch in chemical engineering, in my college, but the top engineering companies at the time didn't even consider women for interviews. So even my grades didn't matter at the time. And that should say something right? I mean, women have gone to space, but they're not considered for plant jobs. And frankly, in my job, I have actually gone on top of wind turbines. I wandered the remotest part of the country. I've been to chemical plants and power plants, but the bias still remains, even though the exclusion is much lesser today. Even today in my field, not so much in my organization, but in general, we hear things like Oh wear a sari, or take a male colleague along for your government official interviews in order to be taken seriously. So, women have to be a certain way or dress a certain way in order to be considered experts while men just have to show up in the same group. And add to that ageism, which again, is something that is quite prevalent in the policy space. Where if you are a young female professional, you're treated very well. Almost like it's a pleasant wonder to have you there, but that's about it. Decisions are almost certainly taken by older men in the room based on the opinions of other older men. And these kinds of biases actually play a lot on women themselves because then it leads them to self-doubt. So, I think it's really plays a lot, even in women's own sort of self-confidence. And then the other part, which I said is the perceived lack of commitment. So, women, have to keep constantly proving their commitment to the job. For example, early in my career, in one of the interviews that I gave at the leading consulting firm, I was asked about my marriage plans because they didn't want to hire someone who would then eventually leave the job and move to the U S where their husband might be located. Of course, the same question is never asked to male candidates and it's tragic that at the time, I didn't even realize I shouldn't have to answer these questions. Uh, and this doesn't happen just once. I mean, it happens not just at the beginning, but also mid-career when they choose to have children or at any promotion, where their commitment to the job is doubted while men's careers don’t really get affected as much. And in fact, there is they're presumed to be more committed to their job when they get married or have children.

Host: And just looking at your career trajectory, how did you Ashwini really overcome these obvious biases? How did you tackle them?

Ashwini Hingne: But I think as women, we need to fight these biases and prejudices on a daily basis with every choice we make. So, what really helps me and what I think helps is to really be part of efforts, to move people in organizations in the right direction. So be through every conversation you have or discussions you have, or really pushing for better policies and practices within the space that you're working in. And one important thing is to always remember that when you end up in a decision-making place, be it as a recruiter or as a supervisor, it's important to be conscious of the effort consciously take efforts to not allow bias in choosing candidates for hiring or promotions. So, I think these are a few things that really are empowering and that that can help change things, not just for yourself, but also for those around you.

Host: And really speaking up. Now Ashwini coming back to your particular work in climate change, it is a rather broad area. So, what is your focus at WRI and in the field of policy change at large?

Ashwini Hingne: Well so our work at World Resources Institute, uh, touches upon various themes at the intersection of environment and development. So be it cities, transport, energy, climate change, simply put the overarching objective is to find ways in which we can pursue our economic goals and development goals while ensuring sustainability. So, one of the things we keep seeing over and over again, and especially we saw with COVID in 2020 is that everything is highly interconnected. You cannot isolate economic or climate actions from their social and environmental consequences. So, the biggest questions for all of us are to identify, pathways that not only ensured macroeconomic growth and conservation of climate and resources, but to also improve the quality of life at the local level through better health outcomes lesser degradation of the local environment, better jobs and better incomes for the people affected. So, my policy research really focuses on identifying policies and measures that can help us achieve our developmental and economic goals in the most efficient, equitable, and practical manner.

Host: And for someone listening to this podcast, if they were to get a sense of what you do, particularly to make sure that there's accountability and that policy catches up with those parameters. that you just spoke about. What is it that you do that really pushes the envelope?

Ashwini Hingne: So, the way we look at things is for example, when we look at an intervention such as renewable power, which is something that I'm working on right now is when we look at such interventions, which are essentially technological interventions, we only look at them from the lens of ok is this really reducing emissions, uh, and is this financially feasible? But looking beyond that, we try to objectively understand across the different sustainable development, parameters be it the social angle be the environmental angle. How does it fare when it actually is deployed at the local level? So How does it affect the people whose lands are being used? How does it affect the water availability in the nearby area? Or how does it really help the employment in the area or does not help the local employment. So, you're trying to, in economic terms, capture the value of the deployment and to understand whether at the societal level this still makes sense. And if, if it, if the returns are high enough economically, and by capturing all of these underlying sorts of impacts, then yes, then these are interventions that need to be taken forward. And if not, what are the ways in which the impact can be managed and what are the ways in which the positive impacts can be enhanced? Right. So, we're trying to, through our analysis of what's happening, you're trying to also identify ways in which the deployment can be made more sustainable. So not just the technology, but also how it is implemented matters and that's the kind of analysis that we try to bring in. And then we provide this kind of analysis in the public forum for not just policy makers, but also investors and project proponents who are actually doing this work on the ground.

Host: And in the past, we have seen the sector mired in a bit of controversy when it comes to being more diverse and inclusive. Has that changed or do you believe more needs to be done?

Ashwini Hingne: Definitely there’s always scope for more to be done, but I have to acknowledge that there is a lot more awareness now, there is a, there are a lot of, lot more efforts that are made to be more inclusive and to remove barriers. But I do think it will take time, one of the challenges that I do see in this is the tokenism, which is when there's just sort of this demonstration of a certain percentage of women in the organization or having a woman on the panel without real change in mindset and attitudes. So that is a challenge, but at the same time, things take time and organization policies would need to be designed to reduce such bias, be it in recruitment or workplace culture or promotion or incomes. And these things are sort of far off, but I think we are inching there slowly.

Host: And how important are more inspirational women role models? Did you have any one person or persons who inspired you and impacted your journey?

Ashwini Hingne: It may sound very cheesy, but to be honest, I find I have always found inspiration all around me. So right from growing up, watching my mother excel at her profession while juggling kids and her parents and other family commitments to almost all women, really. women at work who are managing personal roles to even women who are not professionally employed, but I value in the roles that they play. So, I don't want to put women on a pedestal here, but I think it's hard to find women who are not inspiring. But what I do think, we need more of are women leaders. Because despite everything, there's still fewer women at the top. And it is almost as though women who do make it are the exceptions and not the norm. And that won't change unless the gender roles are less rigid. So that is unless there's more equitable distribution of responsibilities and normalization of men also being primary caregivers at home. So, we need more role models and leaders let's say Jacinda Ardern who most recently has shown that women leaders can even get countries out of the toughest situations. And we also need more men role models who so to say do it all in inverted quotes.

Host: Exactly. And like you said, more leadership positions for women, but just following on from that, what do you believe has to change in the fields of science and engineering to showcase more diverse talent?

Ashwini Hingne: So, like I said, I think a lot of what I already said does include that. So, one is to change policies, right from recruitment to, within the organization, work cultures. And at the end of the day, I think we need to also speak more about men who are handling multiple roles because the day that gets normalized, I think the, the burden on women to really be doing everything and excelling at work, sort of goes down. So be it for example, the maternity leave policies that companies have. I mean, women across the board now mandatorily have six months, but men rarely get that opportunity to contribute to their families. And at the same time, women suffered in their careers because of the leave that they take. And I'm not speaking from personal experience because we do come from an organization that's quite inclusive that way. But I think there is a penalty globally, which is called as a motherhood penalty. And in fact, research shows that mothers eventually end up being more productive than their peers who are, who are not mothers or parents. And I think evidence such as this needs to be taken into consideration when taking decisions at an organizational level, then I think that does apply to science and engineering because of the biases that I spoke about, but I think it also applies largely to any field or to our society as well.

Host: So, if I were to ask you, what is your own vision for yourself professionally? Where do you go from here?

Ashwini Hingne: Well, so in the field that I am things take time, impact also takes time. And so, you realize that small incremental changes matter a lot more than big bang changes. So even though it can be slightly frustrating, I think the most fulfilling thing for me is to be able to work in the space that I feel strongly about. Alongside the brightest minds in the field, uh, while bringing together all of the things that I spoke about. So, my education experience or my passion to really be part of the change that I truly believe in. What I do look forward to is moving the conversation of what I'm trying to do from just climate versus development, which is what happens, mostly in the public realm to really climate smart development. So, from finding ways to be more, to be a low carbon society while ensuring that it is improving the lives of everyone and not just a few. So that is what I am professionally sort of most excited to do.

Host: And if there was one message you would like to leave for our listeners, advice, insight, words of encouragement, what would that be?

Ashwini Hingne: Firstly, for our entire generation or millennials as we like to call ourselves or are called, I think it, it, like you said, it's an interesting mix of engineering and economics. I think all of this sort of the world right now is so flexible and so open to such different things. All it takes is a lot of hard work, patience and time things take time. Right? So that is one advice I would give everyone. That it all sounds great in hindsight, but it takes a lot of perseverance to keep moving forward. Especially to women I would say, please, don't second guess yourself. And it may not be always possible to fight bias but take every opportunity you get to speak up for yourself and for other women and men to create a more equal workspace that we are part of and try to be part of change whenever possible, because that is empowering in itself.

Host: Ashwini Hingne, thank you ever so much for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Ashwini Hingne: Thank you Shivraj it was a pleasure. Thanks.

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In this episode we speak to Nidhi Pant, Co-founder of S4S or Science for Society technologies. S4S is a start-up that helps farmers preserve their produce and get a better deal.

A chemical engineer turned farmer turned entrepreneur, Nidhi wants to continue using her background in science and technology to provide scientific solutions to the most challenging problems of rural India.

Nidhi is also the recipient of the Women Transforming India award by Niti Ayog in collaboration with the UN and has also been listed on Forbes 30, under 30 Asia.

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to envision a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Safer India Today.

Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform.

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Nidhi Pant:

Host: Nidhi Pant thank you for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Nidhi Pant: Thank you. And I'm grateful for this opportunity to the entire team.

Host: Now, I know you come from a family of scientists and farmers, but Nidhi if you were to dig deep into your own personal history, what really propelled you to choose a calling so closely linked with science and technology?

Nidhi Pant: Born in Uttarakhand to a family of farmers I learned that survival was just not an instinct but something I have to learn very quickly. Born in the lap of the great Himalayas, blessings and misfortunes were something that went hand in hand. Had enough land to till, but there was not enough money that could support this fertile piece of land. And seeing some near one taking their lives due to this brutally unfair situation and having my family suffer this, I definitely saw that what could be the probable solution for this. And both my parents also come from a scientific background and have this inclination that how can we solve these challenges faced by our community and science and technology was only the answer for it, where it could really address the root cause of the problems that we face. And this also led me to pursue my engineering degree and use science and technology to solve some of the most challenging problems.

Host: And were those personal incidents that you alluded to, the suicides, the unaffordability of tilling fertile land? Where they the only deciding factor in pursuing science?

Nidhi Pant: They were not the only factor, but one of the major factors. But we also see that women and children in our family were fed only rice, no vegetables. It's a very landlocked region. Transporting goods are a challenge. People are eating food, which is low in nutrition and have to go through these adversities because of logistics challenges. So, all of these together build up. And I definitely wanted to address this and moved them from one stratum to the other, which is really solved the root cause of the problem and not have that Delta ship. So having that Orbit shifting effect. So, all of these together came to play a very big part in my choice of choosing science and technology.

Host: So, Nidhi, tell us a bit more about your educational background and what sparked the idea behind S4S technologies.

Nidhi Pant: I grew up in Bhabha Atomic Research Centre which is among the most renowned scientists of India and their family. So, science was a very underlying theme in everything that we discussed whether it is school projects. Or any kind of extracurricular activities. And I was very clear that I want to also take it forward and pursue engineering as a, as a subject. And that, that led me to join Institute of chemical technology Mumbai, which is formerly known as UB city it's a government Institute. And I pursued chemical technology. I was very much interested to see how some of these scientific principles could be used in a more practical manner to solve the problem. And that's what led to the birth of Science for Society. which is S4S technologies, where we decided to use, a group of students came together, working in the same lab. My other co-founders are my college seniors. We all came together for the common mission of solving most challenging problems faced by our community, through science and technology. Led to solving the problems of the agriculture industry, the problems faced by our small holder farmers, that markets are distant for them, the perishability is higher, the wastage is high at the farm gate. There are not proper, any sophisticated technology that can help them increase their yield or save on some of their losses. So that's where the idea of science for Society actually started by seeing some of these problems in-person. And also connecting the dots that how can we actually take them all together to solve the problem.

Host: And Nidhi for folks who don't understand what S4S technologies does, what exactly does S4S do?

Nidhi Pant: S4S transforms, landless women farmers to become micro entrepreneurs by providing them the right combination of technology, market- linkage, and access to finance. We provide our proprietary technology which is a solar based food processing equipment at the farm gate for these women to use it and process their surplus produce for which they don't get the right price in the market. Using the technology they convert it from a fresh produce to a processed food, increasing its shelf life without addition of any preservatives or chemicals. We collect this back and sell these to the large food and beverage industries as food ingredients. So, we help farmers earn an assured additional income and also reduce wastage in the supply chain.

Host: And from what one reads about S4S technologies, it has grown exponentially, and it isn't simply just a technology solution anymore to a rural problem. How has it morphed and grown and what keeps you forging ahead?

Nidhi Pant: Definitely it's been a combination of things. We, when we initially started the model was very focused on how technology can solve, alone can solve this problem but as we went ahead it evolved into a bit more robust business model where technology was one of the enablers, but not the only solution because we also realized that it was important to monetize this technology. So how can this work for farmers, for them to get better livelihood options? And that's when we decided that. Okay. What we can do is that we can also provide them market linkage that, okay. they have the produce, which they have processed. Farmers are not marketers. So, can, S4S play, that part of providing them an assured market so that they focused only on processing using the equipment. And that's what we are doing right now. And all of this has been possible through market driven solutions and also having the right access to finance for buying the equipment and accessing the equipment. So definitely technology is at the core of it, but it's also been aided by proper market linkage solution, as well as access to finance.

Host: And what are your future plans for S4S technologies?

Nidhi Pant: We definitely have proven this model with more than 550 women entrepreneurs now, having these small micro food processing units. Our majority of work is in Maharashtra, Orissa and Uttar Pradesh, and now we are scaling this up very rapidly to reach 3000 women entrepreneurs in next week. So, our goal is first to prevent the food wastage happening at the farm level and also move farmers out of poverty. So, working with these micro entrepreneurs who do not have a steady source of income or and are in poverty are always very debt-ridden to actually come out of poverty, through this, an assured additional income of 6,500 to 10,000 rupees based on how much work they do, how much they process. So, this can actually aide them, have their assured income throughout the year, rather than in bits and pieces, in some months they have work in some months, they don't. So that's how we are scaling S4S to reach more and more micro-entrepreneurs.

Host: That's incredible. Nidhi now moving away from S4S technologies. Given your career trajectory, do you believe careers in science and technology provide a level playing field for women in India?

Nidhi Pant: No, I definitely feel that men continue to dominate science and technology, and there is no level playing field. And this is also primarily due to the timeline where, when the women are at the peak of their career, that coincides with the time when people think of starting their family. Women also end up being caregivers, not just to children, but also to the entire family. Pay gaps still continue to exist. And more so if you actually see most of the panel discussions or any thoughts that are happening, it's so dominated by men. So, I think we definitely have a lot of work to do to get that parity in place.

Host: And Nidhi, what do you think from your perspective must change?

Nidhi Pant: I definitely think that it starts with some policy level of intervention. Where these policies are aimed to fix the gender imbalances. These could be flexibility in, at work and working hours. The commitment of leadership at the leadership level towards diversity. Sensitizing male colleagues also about some of their biases that they have and a proper formal mentorship network and a support system that can be offered for women just to feel more confident also while re-entering the work. And then second is to find a very strong support system that how can women have the best support system that they need to tackle all this.

Host: You know, you mentioned mentorship, how important then are role models. And if you were to look at your own story, who was your role model and who inspired you.

Nidhi Pant: I think mentorship is so important at each stage in your lives? For me at different stages, there were different role models. And I see a mentorship very actively. So, while growing up, starting from Kalpana Chawla to Kiran Mazumdar Shaw both my role models. And as I was growing up, I also started seeking role models in my colleagues and some of the other industry leaders that I interacted with. So, starting from Reshma Anand of HUL foundation to Kiran Pasricha of Ananta centre. I was really having a very strong support system and support from mentors, both inside my own organization and also from the ecosystem, from my board members. So I think role model helps you first find your purpose and helps you strengthen your purpose, so you know that your journey is going to be defined in a particular manner and you feel more confident to pursue it, so it really provides you that, anytime you fail, you have a set of people to fall back on for their guidance support. Secondly, what it helps you is that it helps you to navigate times when you were self-doubting, when you don't know what you're doing is enough, whether you sometimes you are challenged by, by other colleagues. And I think nowadays it's also important to move from a mentor to a sponserer who's just not mentoring you, but also actively being your cheerleader at each stage, whether it is inside the organization or, or anywhere outside. And I definitely think there could be also a good idea to have a personal advisory board, which is the set of people who know you well, who know that there could be gaps at your end also, so when they give you that direction, they also have a 360 degree view of you, as a person and their advice would be more contextualized.

Host: Now Nidhi, you operate at a cusp between climate change and agri-tech. These seem to have become big buzzwords, but as a celebrated woman, entrepreneur yourself, how important is it to remain grounded in everyday realities of what it entails to bring about real change?

Nidhi Pant: I think it's very important to not forget that you are married to the problem and not your solution. Just to give you an example in a more scientific manner that you don't want to go there and prove your assumption. Whenever you're building something, you want to test it, you are, you should be more open to be wrong, open to be challenged, by others. And never forget that who are you devising this for? Who are you solving for? If you're solving for women farmers, I cannot deploy a solution, which I feel is the most technologically wow solution, but it also needs to be something which is of use to the end user. And that is the most important part of any product or any solution to translate into something which is usable. For you to reach that scale, it's important to be so closer to the customer, listen to their voice, understand that as a user, what would be their challenges while using that? It is not only that we come and tell them this is the best way to solve it. It needs to come from them, that this is the best solution for me. And there are various ways to and indicators to test it out. So, I definitely feel like for anyone to scale, it's also very important to be humble and very grounded too, to know what your solution does for your end customer.

Host: Now Nidhi, you are an advocate for women's leadership and innovation, but for many women listening to this conversation, often it is a question of excelling in science at the educational stage. But somewhere along the line, we've seen many at a crossroad when choosing it as a career. What would your one piece of advice be for them? Not to give up.

Nidhi Pant: Don't self-doubt and say that I might not be good enough, or this might just not be valuable enough, or my interventions are not significant enough. Don't compare yourself and have this conversation with yourself. Go out there and experiment and fail. And there is no need to have a self-doubting mind that does not allow you to succeed. So, it's very important to just experiment and then decide on anything and not self-doubt, that initial stage when, when you're deciding on opportunities.,

Host: Nidhi Pant, thank you ever so much to speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Nidhi Pant: It's my pleasure. Thank you so much.

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On this episode, we speak to Rashmi Urdhwareshe former director of the automotive research association or ARAI, a cooperative industrial research association by the automotive industry, as well as the Ministry of Industries. Rashmi is an automotive safety, emissions, e-mobility, and sustainable transport expert, among others. She did a graduation degree in Electrical Engineering in 1981 and completed a post-graduation in Electronics and Telecommunications subsequently. An unusual and challenging choice of career for a woman in India at the time. Rashmi is the recipient of the Nari Shakti Puraskar, a woman empowerment award, an annual award given by the government of India for her outstanding contribution to automotive technology.

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org.

You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Safer India Today.

Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Rashmi Urdhwareshe:

Host: Rashmi Urdhwareshe, thank you for taking the time to speak to us on the Word to the WISE podcast

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Hello.

Host: Rashmi you did your degree in Electrical Engineering and Master's in Electronics and Telecommunication in the Eighties, but what motivated you to pursue a career in Automotive Engineering?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Well, my career in Automotive engineering is just by chance while I was doing already my Master's degree in the second year itself there came in an opportunity at automotive research association of India.

They had announced a position for trainee engineers. And I thought let me try and one of my friends at the time was working there and she gave a feedback that it's a good position and I should try it out. I actually did try I applied and the interview was quite rigorous. In fact, during the interview, I came to know a lot about what is expected for a new trainee engineer to work in a very, very tough environment..

I did accept the challenge. And I joined in the instrumentation laboratory. I continued there. I had various opportunities. My growth happened, the entire career span of 37 years happened. And finally, I retired from the same Institute as the director..

Host: And that's quite an amazingly long tenure to stay with one industry, one organization, but let's just go back to your time when you studied and accomplished so much in the institutions you studied in .Clearly at the time they were male bastions.It was unheard of, of women choosing such degrees, as well as choosing a career path like this. What was it like then? And what were your takeaways from your experience studying in these institutions?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Yes, I think the career and it's struggle started in engineering colleges. I took admission in 1977 in a regional college of engineering at Nagpur. That was truly a male dominated college and we were handful of us girls students in the class. We had to struggle. Those four years taught me a lot. And in fact, when I received my award from the same colleges, distinguished alumnus, I expressed this to the girl students there. And the struggle was really real.

And that gave me a lot to takeaway when I started the career without any fear, in fact in automotive engineering. The initial years itself we had an opportunity to visit on a fellowship for six months to United Kingdom and Germany that opened up a lot of ideas for us to work together.

It removed a lot of restraints constraints, et cetera, and brought a very healthy atmosphere, at least in the working level. And then of course, when I kind of was in a position to manage my teams much differently, much in a able manner. That made a great impact. The initial formative years were very important for me.

Host: And in those formative years looking at the way , the industry, the domain of engineering sciences has grown the way women have contributed. What do you believe is the message for women when they're up against the similar challenges?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: I think going back and looking back at how I was able to manage it. My mindset always has been to give the best to where I belonged. Be it at family be it at personal commitments or be it at the career. I would go out of my way to perform well, to help out others to be a good team member as well as to be a good mentor. That always has helped me in not just a passive manner to be supportive or to be building up my own position, but also leading. Being able to lead a male dominated group is something very, very different in automotive. My supportive role actually got started to change into a leadership role. And while I joined as a project engineer my role got extended, expanded because I could perform or outperform by learning new skills by also acquiring the higher or technical requirements that were needed at those specific roles.. So my message would be to do your best and also believe in yourself. Women have greater strengths women have different strengths and women also have different capabilities. It is this realization, not just to a woman, but also to the other colleagues that enables the team to perform much better and take the women along in their own career paths.

Host: And from all one is read about you. You've also helped develop many firsts; controls for the hydraulics of testing machines, then on emission control, as well as methods of measurement of emissions. What do you think helped you strike out and forge your own career path?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: I think most of my career happened around Research and Development for which , I was very passionate about. Although it was hydraulics my control engineering skills enabled me to quickly change to mechanical controls then to electronic controls. And then I was able to design the first electronic engine management system. I had at that time, no knowledge about engines, but I had fairly good idea about my own subjects of electronic controls.. So applying my knowledge into something which was a real world, I was handling the engines, or the vehicles for the first time that enabled me and gave me a great confidence in the integration of various technologies that could further shape up the world. That, actually also enabled me to work on electronic engine management, working for fuel economy, working for safety, working for emission controls and so on and so forth. Slowly what happened is the regulations played a major role in tightening the norms, also bringing in a new safety as well as the emission control systems on vehicles.

And we as research and development engineers, therefore assumed a central role rather than just a supportive instrumentation engineering role. That entirely changed my perspective. I realized quickly that it's time to move on with the next or the higher roles. And I no more, therefore only focused on electronics engineering, but quickly acquired or moved on with safety and emission regulations, and then subsequently for electric mobility. We were the first ones who started working on it at ARAI, and slowly we took a leadership role there. So that's how the actual journey got to be established and I'm very proud. What was made as beginning there has now resulted into a centre of excellence on e-mobility and emission regulations have, resulted into moving directly to Bharat stage six norms now. We are very proud as design engineers and now the leaders of automotive technology.

Host: So your focus on research, your passion for design and for applying it to real life problems. These seem to really be your trademark. How important are these things then for women looking to make a difference in the fields of science and engineering, especially as career options, seem to be growing so quickly now.

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Yes. I think when we are in engineering colleges automotive is nowadays seen as a glamour career. I think it's much different than that. It's much basic. It is much more wider and not just that, it integrates very greatly the skills that span across all the disciplines of engineering. Not just engineering, in fact all the STEM education that is available all across is something which is significantly to be kept in view. When it comes to women, especially. Women are known to be having very good ability or very good analytical ability, excellent tools are available these days in designing and development using simulation tools. There are opportunities that are opening in quality assistance . Quality of product and its applicability to the end user are very significant trends that are currently happening in automotive. Women have a very great role to play. I can now highlight here one you know, incidents, which happened 35 years ago in fact. I was on fellowship at Ford motor company that time in Germany and they were designing a new steering system. And power steering was new at that time. It so happened that I was working on instrumentation for measurement of the torque that is needed for moving the steering column and my manager that time he was a German and he came to me and he said, Rashmi , can you please sit on this, steering seat, on the driving seat and try out the steering we want to measure how much is the torque. I said, but why? There are of course test engineers and why can't they do that. And they said, they're looking for a women driver and that too with a certain height and dimensions, and I am five feet, two inches, and that fits into something called 50th percentile women population. That was a revelation and then I realized that it's important for the women also to take part in what gets to be designed primarily as a male dominated product. That is automotive. So that always remained at the back of my mind. And I encouraged all the women engineers also to participate therefore directly into designing the products that are suitable, not just for men, but also for women.

Host: And as former hand of ARAI, which was an apex research body. Where do you see, and just following on, from your example that you just gave at your time at Ford, where you were asked to test the steering system, where do you see the need for greater inclusivity? When it comes to critical issues like design and development, safety, e-mobility, and transportation needs.

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Absolutely. Women are 50% of the population, as we all know, the transportation needs are , expanding. It could be personal mobility and then of course we have two wheelers and passenger cars are , typical sectors in which women very extensively use this. . There were times where scooters were specifically designed keeping women in mind. The scooters were small wheeled vehicles and the wheels were covered for the safety of the flying garments, et cetera. So those were good concepts. And I think that started off giving women an opportunity to use the vehicles extensively. That was in fact a very good breakthrough . We didn’t that time call it inclusivity.

It's just that the market also was expanded to include women inclusivity, concept started coming in much later. Where the same product needs to be also, being used by men and women alike. In fact I would extend it further inclusivity also includes being able to use the product by differently abled people. I have extensively worked on vehicle designs to be made, suited. For those who have lost ability of one or more of their limbs. There are regulations which were established with a thorough research on those lines and India specific situations where we are not a very friendly kind of infrastructure to enable people to differently abled people to use vehicles. Then comes of course, public transportation and it's suitability for women. Its suitability for women is a very big subject. In fact, public transportation is shunned by many women because of unsafe operations. So safety of women saying it could be through Nirbhaya Scheme or it could be for designing the vehicle seats for having better seating arrangements or even for women being able to drive the buses ,trucks and for that matter construction and mining equipment also. So these are the areas which are opening up now. In fact, through ACE we have a wide competition for designing off Highway vehicles that is the agriculture tractors and it implements for suitability for women. agrculturists. So the horizon is just expanding and I'm very happy that we are opening up the opportunity for women to make their impact there.

Host: So design, transport needs and even safety. So where must that change actually begin? What role did ARAI under your leadership play in bringing more gender equity within the automotive industry?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Gender equity is policy that the corporates are very extensively following. We at ARAI also had gender equality as one of our core values. Our participation in not just in research and development programs, but manager and leadership programs included women extensively. The ratio is something which always speaks about organization's success. We were fortunate to have good diversity ratio especially in the technical field . We had less number of women working in other laboratories or for the testing, et cetera, but they were a good number in our R&D departments and technical technologies. We also had very good number who were working on safety systems. In fact many of our key contributors, they worked on safety systems. I had colleagues who specialized in doing crash testing, crash instrumentation and their insights into how the safety systems should work and be made suitable for women in transportation, was something which was very, very highly contributed. There were several technical papers, which were presented by women engineers. And also one more area is analysis of various safety regulations. That was led by many of our safety experts. Even the emission laboratory, our key resources were women. They had a very great insight on ambient air quality related projects. They also had represented not just ARAI, but they represented India at the international forum on ambient air quality discussions, as well as carbon neutrality, which is the topic of today, now. . This has been our core areas of working..

Host: And can you give us some examples from the sector where just looking at vehicular design, safety testing and user experience from a gender lens has really had a massive impact?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Yes. I think going back again on time women were seen as one of the major market for vehicles.. As soon as that became a significant factor, the vehicles started to be designed as suitable for simple applications. For example, start stop of a scooter. Women were seen to be, preferring the electronic start. When it was introduced into vehicles it no more remained as something special for women. It was so convenient and it was so inclusive that it became an industry standard. The second example I can. give is again, a safety of the vehicles. Women are known to comply to the regulations. They have the keenness to adopt regulations to a greater extent .When women in Pune started wearing helmets, rest all of them started kind of following it up. The third example is again, wearing of seat belts.. I do remember several instances where we used to travel on tour. And even if I'm sitting at the rear seat I would insist on wearing my seatbelt and the driver would say, Madam , this is not compulsory to wear a seatbelt, if you are seated at the rear, I would say, yes, it's not compulsory, but I would choose it for my own safety. So slowly those examples, start perpetuating and it goes on further for everybody else to follow. So they can make a difference through behaviours for sure .They can make a difference through showing on the data. I remember some meetings where some of the lady colleagues would bring in some photographs which showed some unsafe designs. That would begin a discussion in the meetings to lead to better safety and control systems related to vehicles, for example, sharp corners or projections on vehicles or for that matter safety of tires also, was one of such subjects where one woman brought in into the meeting room experience, which she had when she was traveling. And she was left with a flat tire and no opportunity to change it because her vehicle didn't have a spare wheel. And that came in as a requirement in the Indian regulations that the vehicles must be fitted with the spare wheel.. So such examples show that women can make a difference when it comes to safety of not just as a passive vehicle user, but very active contributor to the controls.

Host: And just coming back to the industry and working conditions, how important is the role of women in changing the way the industry is perceived? Because I asked this because the impression is that work in the automotive sector entails very long hours.. Where design, testing validation requires in fact, getting on behind systems and driving out into difficult terrain and so on and so forth.

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Yes, but the things are changing now. We don't have to physically depend on doing the testing a hundred percent on test tracks. We have simulation tools. Also, there are opportunities for doing the control systems designing, in the hardware in loop in the laboratory itself. So suppose there is a suspension testing going on. You don't have to sit into the vehicle to test the suspension on a rough terrain. You can cleverly design the suspension sitting into the comfort of the laboratory by fitting the suspension into hydraulic controls and simulating the road. So gone are those concepts, that one has to work hard and long hours. Of course, there's no substitute for hard work as such. But that concept has really moved from a rough environment to a mix of environments. Of course every woman also has to experience what finally the vehicle has to undergo to that effect of course participation in testing on field is important. But the roles are changing. Roles are definitely changing for betterment for the better safety. And of course the vehicle designs are also getting changed. There are systems now, which will help the driver in case he makes an error. For example, we are moving towards autonomous driving or we are moving towards driver assist systems on those, before they even are tested on Indian roads or for that matter, any roads they have to be rigorously simulated and tested, and that's where women have been contributing greatly in system designing ,vehicle designing, the testing validation, quality control, failure mode effect analysis. So these are in my view, great opportunities for women to start their careers. They can work on material designs. There are smart structures, there are smart materials which are designed these days, for better and safer systems. So physicists, chemical engineers, and several other disciplines can contribute greatly. Vehicle is no more a dominant trait of mechanical engineers. It's a mix of electronics engineering, electrical engineering, with so much of power train changes. We have now electric vehicles coming in. So much of it is coming from power electronics. So much of it is coming from materials research. So these are the new areas where women can start making their very serious careers.

Host: So power electronics, new mechanics, but what about future tech? You know, alternative energy, but now even future tech has become a major consideration of R &D in the auto sector. Where can women play a role? What are the opportunities there?.

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: In the future technology you rightly mentioned about alternate energy and with our national vision now of carbon neutrality in near future, the year is not important. The direction is very critical for all of us to pursue. Alternate energy is moving is going to decide the future of our success in mobility engineering. Hydrogen as the future is coming up, very clearly electric mobility powered by green hydrogen ,hydrogen produced from green means is something which will fuel the fuel cells. That is the future. We should also not forget that there is a huge opportunity of using the biofuels. We have a large agro-based industry. Agriculture is one sector, which is a very, very good, kind of field to work upon for developing and also utilizing bioenergy by , recovering energy from the agriculture waste. There I think a self-sufficient economy can be built around agro-based regions. So the regions which can produce at zero waste can also plough back the biofuels that are produced through green mechanisms. We also have a great opportunity to work on solar energy. Abundantly we are blessed with solar energy as a country. And that's the future of fuel for which we all can, aim at. Of course along with alternate energy, there is a vision zero, that is Safety, no person will die on Indian roads due to traffic accidents. That is a vision . How that can be achieved is multiple ways. One is of course, vehicle engineering, design the vehicles in such a way that there is a least risk to the occupants. The other dimension is to design also the infrastructure in such a way that the vehicle runs safely and the infrastructure provides the necessary safety. The third pillar as they say is enforcement,. Although the regulations further tighten up vehicle controls infrastructure. But the enforcement is something which comes out of behavioural aspects. So that is the third aspect and the fourth, is emergency. In case anything should go wrong with any of these aspects the immediate response of emergency that is recovery out of that accident , which has happened. These are the four pillars based on which the vision zero can be developed. So these are excellent areas for anybody to make a career . I would very strongly encourage women to consider these as their future careers. We all are concerned about the lives that are lost on Indian roads . We are concerned about the degradation of the environment that is around us. So that's a commitment women can make to themselves as also to the nation and start a career there..

Host: So Rashmi , you're also the recipient of the Nari Shahti Puraskar , women empowerment. Award, clearly a Testament to how much work you've done in automotive technology. What did that award mean for you?

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: I think that's something which happened towards the end of my career. And I looked at it as a, pinnacle, , as a tribute, to my own career. I started off with the humble background as a trainee engineer. I was lucky to work in an environment which enabled me to give my best. To not just myself, but also to the organization, also to the nation. I committed to give what best I could do. And that was recognized through the award. So I looked at it as something which when I actually went on the stage to receive the award at the hands of honourable President behind me, I saw a big organization .Behind me I saw my family, my parents who were instrumental in shaping up my career also. So everybody who could make it happen I thought of all of them and I was very thankful to ARAI. To all my colleagues and to my family and on their behalf, I thought I'm receiving that honour. That was my feeling. I also felt when I talked with all other recipients who also came from very similar humble beginning . All of us had never kind of worked to achieve anything in life and we had not aimed to win that award, et cetera. It just so happened., That we all have made an impact to our lives as well as to the society that brought us that award .

Host: And finally, Rashmi for women listening to this conversation, what is the one message you have for them as they consider careers in electronics, automotive engineering, and fields? What qualities do they need to not only pursue a career in STEM, but also persist in STEM fields.

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: I think I would give them three points. My first and foremost important consideration is commitment. Commitment to yourself as well as to everybody else who is around you. The second one is self discipline, be it your own, career, be it your own personality, be it your own health. We must have a self-discipline .And the third is values and the upbringing and the belief in your own selves . There are times where, the organization or the colleagues feel differently than what you are. It is very important that our values, give us guidance all the time. So we have to be faithful, truthful to our own selves, which are guided by our values and beliefs. So these are the three principles which had helped me personally. And I would add to it, do your best. There's always a pursuit towards higher learnings. Always acquire the necessary skills on your way as you build a career. You start off as a graduate or a post graduate at a particular level that attracts you to you know, certain height, but that is not enough. The life is a journey towards, or a pursuit towards excellence and knowledge. I think we should follow that path. That's how the careers, I look at it.

Host: That's fantastic. So commitment ,self-belief, value, technical ability and a long view. Rashmi Urdhwareshe Thank you ever so much for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Rashmi Urdhwareshe: Thank you. And all the best for everybody who is listening.

View Details

Our guest today is fondly known as the Batterywali of India. Dr Rashi Gupta, Founder Director, Vision Mechatronics has pioneered the manufacturing of advanced lithium batteries and made herself a name to reckon with in the field of renewable energy and energy storage.

Named Asia's most influential woman in renewable energy, Dr Rashi advocates for gender equality and women empowerment at every possible opportunity.

She is a committee member of the Bureau of Indian Standards for batteries, energy storage, and e-mobility, a member of International Electro-technical Commission and the list goes on.

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org.

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Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Dr. Rashi Gupta:

Host: Dr Rashi Gupta thank you for joining me in this conversation on the Word to the WISE podcast. How does it make you feel being known as the Batterywali of India? And more importantly, can you tell us a bit about why you came to be known as the Batterywali?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity here today to be with you on this podcast. Well, how do I come to be known as Batterywali of India? Now this happened because I'm one of the pioneers in this segment and being a female, only female entrepreneur in a domain, that the tagline as Batterywali of India. And, you know, being the pioneer, there were not many people. When in 2015, when we started with advanced lithium batteries in India and, you know, in India, there's always a wali or wallah tag attached to your work. So that's how they describe your work profile. And then it was easier for people to just see and relate, you know? Okay; Go to Batterywali, that female who works in batteries. She'll tell you what is to be done. So, so that's how it came and and then I took it as a tagline for me as a respect and affection given by the industry. So, I said, why not adopt it?

Host: And that's in good spirit. But before we get into your work and views on the role of women in science and engineering, can you Dr Rashi, give our listeners a sense of where your love for the sciences began.

Dr Rashi Gupta: Well, right at the childhood. My love for science began right at the childhood. You know, as a female, my parents never gave me dolls, playing materials with generally girls get, I always got a computer to play with, so I was the one who was playing PC man and Pacman, at that time, And I was always into computers and you know, more things with innovation would fascinate me rather than, you know, get into the traditional. But at the same time, my mother did strike a balance to ensure that I could do everything at home. I mean, all the household chores is something that I can still do. So, you know, that was something which was fascinating. And I'm very thankful to my family, that they could allow me to take a science as a background and they always encouraged and said it's fine, you can take up science and then it really fascinated me a lot. I would love doing those experiments, I would love seeing how computers would work. In fact, when I created my first email ID I was so excited. We had those old modems in our house at that time, you know, those 144 kbps those white colors small models which would work. So that internet would give me such a big exposure to more technology and it would connect me to the world to read more and understand more. So, it goes way back to my childhood.

Host: That's so interesting. And why renewables? More specifically energy storage and lithium batteries

Dr Rashi Gupta: Why renewables? I tell you what I mean. I started in 2009 with robotics and my plate was full very soon because of the kind of work we did, very niche, very advanced. And then I was like, okay, now I'm getting stagnated. I feel stagnated. How do I give my brain some challenge to really create, innovate? Because it was on an autopilot mode for 3, 4 years. Next 3-4 years. So, what do we do? So then renewables did catch my interest. because that's where, you know, energy and power comes into play. And I loved power, somehow. It was very important for me to give back to the society at large because the society has given me a lot. So, I wanted to give back, contribute my bit. And that's when I started looking into renewable energies, but then solar was by and large, quite a lot saturated in other countries, in the more developed countries and energy storage was picking up. But then India had been always a traditionally lead acid battery storage country till then, and I wanted to give it something new, a new flavour. And that's when I came across that people abroad are getting into lithium batteries. You're getting into more advanced technologies and why India should not get into it? Why should I not bring something which is more valuable, which can change the way energy storage is perceived. So that's when I thought, okay, lithium makes more sense. It is more beneficial to what India really needs in terms of overhauling, in terms of giving a new face to the entire, power sector.

Host: And you've often said that at Vision Mechatronics, you want to develop the world's smartest lithium battery in India. How far have you come in achieving that vision?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Well, absolutely because I always thought that smart work is more important and it makes more sense. So what we did was we wanted to add IoT. That was our first thing, so that, see, you know, India is geographically, a very large nation and traveling and for service support, it becomes really difficult. At times, going, reaching rural places and you know, far to reach places. So I thought, why not add something intelligent? Give a battery on a next level of interaction. Wherein, it could interact with the client, it could interact with us and it would give you much more advanced prediction on things. So yes, we made it smart and not just smarter, we made it the smartest, and we are continuously adding to it. Today we have added a preventative and predictive monitoring, where we can predict 15 days in advance that the cells are going to go bad. We are now going to, with all the data that we are collecting with every instance in every day, we want to make it to at least 3 months in advance. So, you know, we are going to continuously improve what we are doing in terms of product, in terms of service so that the customer has a complete peace of mind. So that is what something I felt is very, very important in terms of having a service and a smarter service, because smartest thing is something which is very new and and internet and IoT has given you a very, very broad spectrum to improve your service and the customer satisfaction. Take it to the next level.

Host: And how important is that from a safety and security perspective?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Very, very important, you know, because safety plays a major role and many a times you can avert many accidents having IoT in the picture. We are also going to add blockchain to take it to the next level of transparency. But what I realized is, you know, by having preventative and predictive monitoring we were able to solve many issues just remotely with very minor changes. And what we could understand is, you know, we could give it a better efficiency to the customer on site, by understanding the usage patterns. So safety is paramount. We have not compromised anywhere on the safety. We are trying our level best to keep on adding to the safety that is required in terms of the internet of things in terms of the battery technology per se. So we are doing both over there. We have that as a reason, introduced a very advanced BMS System, which takes care of most of the things, including an active balancing to give it a very high efficiency. So these are the things on every level we are trying to inculcate so that the customer has a seamless zero blackout experience.

Host: And as you pointed out, Dr. Rashi, India is a very vast geography. There's rural India. There's urban India. There's semi-rural, semi-urban where do you go from here?

Dr Rashi Gupta: I think it's important to uplift the rural India. Till now on the development, we have focused only on the urban India. Or rather the semi urban, we are now developing the semi-urban India. But I think it's time that we focus on rural India because you know, there's a lot of energy drain happening. And the urban India is not capable of sustaining this energy drain any further. The urban India is overloaded and overburdened. So if we could shift the entire development focus to rural India in terms of power, in terms of energy, in terms of manpower, in terms of people, I think the whole country will be developed very fast.

Host: And you've been viewed as a very important voice for gender equality. How important has that become for real advancements in the field of applied sciences in engineering, where you're looking like you just pointed out to solve the real problems of today?

Dr Rashi Gupta: I think gender equality is very important and in the sector that we are, women are actually a very big beneficiary segment of the power requirements that we are looking at. And women in STEM are also equally important. I mean, ground reality is that we really don't see many of them taking up applied sciences or engineering. So we need to focus on that as well. And it is important that whatever we are doing, as in our product enhancement or a technology enhancement, it should be gender neutral. It's very important because if you see, most of the times we have men representing most of the technological sector. So they think in that fashion, they think alike. Now we need to balance the whole idea by having a gender-neutral approach. I mean, most of the courses also, if you see they are more masculine in nature. Can we have a gender balance out there to create courses which are equally balanced have some feminine nature and have a masculine nature as well. I mean, this is very specific to the engineering segment. The STEM segment. I mean, if we can do that, we can really bring a lot of balance in the ecosystem. And I think that would create more opportunities for gender equality as well as for companies to grow.

Host: And just sticking with that theme, in the past year or so, the spotlight has clearly been on women in STEM. We've seen industry bodies, government, the media, all talking about the changing dynamics, the need for greater advocacy funding, so on and so forth. But when it really comes down to ground realities what do you think needs to change or what do you think will make a real difference, especially in your industry?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Well, yes, you're absolutely right. That the spotlight has been on women in STEM, but something that we really need to do is at the ground level, we need to work at the grassroots level, right from, you know, for the girls where they are in their mid-school, like 10 and 12 standards and, you know, going into the early colleges. At that time we need to focus and we need to bring them to have a sense of comfort that yes, engineering is for them and not just, you know, software engineering roles like computer sciences and electronics, even deep core engineering like mechanical or electronics or civil is okay for women to take up. Like mechatronics. All these, all of these things can be taken up by women or the girls, and they can really excel in doing it. It does not have to be a male dominated or a male oriented kind of course. So we have to break these stereotypes; ‘women only are good for the softer roles like teaching or the fashion industry or the music industry’. I mean many more on the softer side. I mean, these are some examples I am citing, please don’t stick to them. But the point is here, that we need to make sure that we can equally do well in the hardcore main STEM and engineering fields. It's not difficult. It's just that you have to believe in yourself, that you can do it. And you know, something important here is that the mothers play a very vital role in their upbringing. And the parents, rather just not mothers and fathers both, you know, together. They have to allow the girl to really believe in herself and push her that yes, you can do it. There is nothing impossible when you say impossible, it's like, I am possible. So yes, you can do it. It's not difficult. It's achievable. And then, you know, we inculcate that faith in that young child's mind; that it is possible. Then I'm very sure we will see more and more women coming into the industry at higher level, higher roles. I mean, after MSc or BSc, or maybe in physics or maybe the final year engineering, you don't see many girls continuing with those in their careers ahead. Or math for that matter. We don't see people continuing with their careers, there is a break after that, then they get married and then all the other things keep happening. So the family takes precedence. Or, the family gets more importance over the career. but then it's okay. It's okay. I mean, women can be in STEM. They can always have a second career to begin with and it should work for them. So we need to inculcate things in the grassroots, at the same time, colleges, schools, and the universities also have to start bringing up courses and making the females and the girls more comfortable on such, topics. They should be allowed to take those challenges openly and they should be treated equally. I mean, don't just because there's a girl student coming in, don't give her an extra advantage. Treat her equally as a male counterpart, and you will see that she will excel or perform in the same fashion as the other students are doing. So that I think is very important.

Host: And just coming back to focusing on you. how do you see yourself being part of that change?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Well, I'm trying to do my bit really. I mean, I'm trying to, wherever I get an opportunity, I'm trying to be a part with all these universities, technical Institutes. Trying to mentor students or young women and men, both, I mean, young minds so that they can come up in the field of STEM. The whole ideology is to give them a practical experience to make them understand that it's not the books that only will give you everything. I mean, it's just a degree on the paper. That's not going to help you. You have to come to the ground reality. You have to come to the shop floor. You have to come to the labs you have to experiment yourself. See how important it is to do things yourself. You know, that is what I'm trying to build. And so I am trying to help. We do give a lot of internships to, uh, to the young students so that, you know, they can come they can experiment, they can learn how industry functions. They can understand where is the gap between academia and industry. Come on the shop floor. See how things work and see the change that you feel in yourself. And then you can always, you know, when, when you have experienced that change, you can always help others change.

Host: And your example is out there, you know, interestingly, your innovation with lithium based battery systems has shown that opportunities lie in the underserved markets. But why do most women and men aspiring for jobs in the field flock to the big cities? Is that helping or hurting their prospects?

Dr Rashi Gupta: I think it's hurting the prospects. As I said, just a short while back that we need to have more rural development. See we are all running in a rat race, out here. And somehow if I had an opportunity, I would still go back to my roots, go back to the rural India. Stay there at peace and you'd be more innovative. You'll be more creative when you are peaceful with your mind. You know, when you have that happiness, around you, you will be more creative, you'll innovate. I mean look at it here, you take at least one and a half hours. I mean this is pre-COVID and when things are normal, you take at least one and a half hours to travel from one point to another point in a city. While if you look at the rural or the semi-rural places, it's not one and a half hours wasted in travelling and the stress that you have of traveling. Secondly, here you don't even know your neighbours. In the rural places, in the villages each and every one is known to you. I mean, something happens. You're still there. You can still discuss, you can open up your minds and talk. I mean, that is what a human nature is requiring today. When we are all missing that in the urban lines. So you know what? Okay. I understand that rural India is having a challenge of power. So why not the youth create something at the rural India to upbring the rural segment. Which is something which creates a job opportunity for them, which creates the infrastructure out there for them. And of course, which definitely lets them to be with their grassroots, with their families and that will give them more happiness. You know what today, the happiness index is very low among the youth. So, if you can have technology combined with happiness as an emotion, I think that would change the whole perspective of the power sector or even the rural India that we are looking at.

Host: That's very interesting because of course, happiness fosters innovation and creativity. Now you're an important voice for e-mobility and energy storage standards, globally. So do you think these advanced battery systems can become more safe and sustainable?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Definitely, yes. My answer is very positive to this. I am definitely looking forward to have more safety and sustainability imbibed in the entire ecosystem for e-mobility and energy storage. Lot of work is being done behind the scenes to bring you something which is more safe and sustainable. And by sustainability, I just don't mean a product development. I mean, the entire ecosystem. Right from building , the first inception of the R&D till recycling and reuse of the same product, ok? And involving each and every aspect of the society. So whether it is gender, it is you know, urban or rural divide or it is the type of the quality that you're building in. I mean, everything in the ecosystem, it should be a 360-degree view that we are talking about here. So definitely yes, a lot of work on standardization is going on. India definitely has done a lot of work and India has been a pioneer to put in a BMS, a Battery Management System standard, which is the first ever globally written standard and it's implemented. So that is something, yes, we are doing a lot of work. I'm very sure that, you know, with the new start-ups coming. In the way youth is taking up sustainability and in climate change I'm very sure we can have more sustainable and a safe society to work with.

Host: That's so interesting that you're saying that it's in India where the innovation and R&D is happening in safety standards. A lot of attention in fact has been turned to talent seeking international grants, looking for greener pastures abroad, when it comes to R&D and study in fields of renewable energy storage, why do you think that is happening? How can we help retain that talent in India? What are the opportunities? Clearly, you, you've already laid out that there's a lot happening here and that we need more minds.

Dr Rashi Gupta: India has till date not been a pro R&D country.You know, we are more of a trading and a manufacturing kind of a country, but that is shifting now. The whole focus is now shifting, like with the new PLI scheme also that has come in. We are talking of advanced cell chemistries out here. I know so many labs behind the scenes who are actually working on having advanced chemistries on having safer systems. So what is important now here is that we need to showcase to the young talent that yes, there is an opportunity for you. And that can happen only when the industry and academia collaborate, give those young minds a platform. Actually, with every generation moving ahead, the IQ is increasing. And the generation, which is going behind, has to realize that the young minds are much smarter. they're, much faster. So what we need to do is we need to have to increase our pace with them and we have to, we have to be much faster in teaching them things that we have learned, and we have to understand what is their requirement,. What is so fascinating about going to another country and doing things, which they can do out here. But I think the scenario is changing now government has also done a lot of work with the Start-up India mission where a lot of these young minds can put up their companies. At our times when we started funding and fundraising was, and, you know, getting debt-rate. debt financing, was very difficult. But things are changing now I see a lot of venture capitalists, Round A, Round B happening and these start-ups are actually getting their money and venture capitalists are also now opening up from the traditional mindset to come up with you know, they want to invest in innovative tech. So I think, yes, India can retain talent subject to, we have an industry-academia collaboration and we give them a taste of success at a little early age. Maybe smaller successes but at an early age that would change the ideas, then would feel, ok, I am capable of doing it. I don't need to go out to other countries.

Host: So industry and academia, collaboration is important, also showcasing work. So bringing all that together. If I were to put you in a time capsule Dr Rashi and ask you to go into the future 10 or maybe even 20 years from now, what do you see as a role of women in STEM, in India?

Dr Rashi Gupta: Wow. I would love to try and travel in this in the time capsule and what I can imagine right now is women being even more powerful. We, women having more opportunities. And I see a gender balance. I see equality in the next 10-20 years coming in because I can see a balance. I can see something, you know, which is so beautiful, which is having an energy balance, which is positive. When you know, men and women are treated equally, the children and the elders are treated equally. Everyone has a voice to give. Everyone has energy independence. Everyone is happy. And that is what I see coming in the next 10- 20 years. Because today that we are working on is giving everybody a sense of energy security. We all are trying, whether it is industry, it is government is the consumers. Everybody is trying to have the greener energy come together. And when all of us will collectively work towards it I'm pretty sure that this imagination that I just had of in the time capsule will be a reality in the next decade. Because this is a transformational decade for the power sector and I'm sure that women are going to lead this transformational decade to make a more happy, sustainable, resilient society that we all can be in for the next generations.

Host: And sticking with that happy thought and that lovely visualization. What would be your advice be to aspiring women scientists in the energy storage space?

Dr Rashi Gupta: I would say, you know, that women are the best at storage. We store everything .and just now we have to learn how to store two types of energies. One is your own energy, which is very, very important. And second is the energy of that is the electricity energy storage, ok? Women have always learned how to store money in those food jars, you know, that India has a concept? Then we have learned how to store food, water, I mean these are all types of energies. But what we have to now learn is how to store electrical energy. Which is very very focused, and which is now getting glamorized. So I'm very happy about it. And I'm sure women, we by nature I mean, Indian women specifically by nature, have that upbringing where we are taught to save everything and women by general can save and store because we are powerhouses. So now it's just that we need to learn how to store electrical energy, how to innovate, to store many different types of energies that we have, and I'm sure women can do it the best. Something, another thing that I would like to add for women is, you know, we get lost in our day-to-day activities. We get lost in our family responsibilities. So something that each and every woman should understand is that we need to upgrade ourselves constantly. A very important aspect is please upgrade yourself constantly in terms of your technicalities, in terms of your skills, in terms of the knowledge base that you have, because that is something going to keep you ahead of time. That will help you deal with the competition around you. That will help you store and excel with the energies that you have.

Host: Dr. Rashi. Thank you ever so much for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Dr Rashi Gupta: Thank you so much Shivraj.

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Our next guest is Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw founder of the country's, or perhaps even Asia's leading biotechnology, enterprise Biocon.

A pioneer of the biotechnology industry her journey began in a garage in the 1970s and with grit and determination to buck the trend of Indian women running a corporation, Dr. Kiran has turned Biocon into an innovation nerve-centre that is committed to affordable solutions in healthcare. She is living proof that girls can do anything they set their minds on.

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org.

You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Safer India Today.

Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform.

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Dr. Kiran Mazumdar Shaw:

Host: Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw. It is a privilege to have you on the Word to the WISE podcast.

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: It's a pleasure. Thanks.

Host: Now you are a public figure and there has been so much written about you. But if I may ask you to go back to that little girl from your past, accompanying your father to the brewery, you had different ambitions back then, right?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Absolutely Shivraj. Basically, I had a very different perspective on where I wanted to go. When I was a young girl, I actually wanted to become a doctor. And I can share with you that it was my inability to basically pass through the portals of any medical college that got me to basically pursue a BSc honours in biology and chemistry. And it was thereafter that, I started getting very interested in microbiology and fermentation science, which then led me to Australia, thanks to my late father's persuasion. When I took up brewing, science, which actually was a very unconventional, , thing for a girl to do, but, , he felt that it was biotechnology and fermentation science was a science that had many, many applications in different fields and he encouraged me to pursue it. And that's what I did. I went to Australia, studied doing science, you know, got very excited with what it could do. Got very interested in microbial fermentation because that's what doing science is about. It's about fermenting, various kinds of grains using yeast and then making different kinds of beers from it. And so when I came back to India to pursue a brewing profession, I suddenly hit the gender barrier and people didn't want to hire a woman as a brewer. And that's where I then changed my tack . My destiny changed and I started a biotech company instead.

Host: And I gather it all began in a garage in the 1970s with a very small, dedicated team, but it wasn't easy. You've often described yourself as an accidental entrepreneur. Why is that?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Well, I just mentioned to you that I was unsuccessful in, in pursuing a career in brewing. And I was all set to basically pursue a brewing career anywhere in the world, when an accidental encounter with a, an Irish biotech entrepreneur changed my fate. Because he wanted to set up a biotech company in India. He had tracked me down because of my Australian brewing days and discussed what he wanted to do in terms of developing and researching enzyme technologies. And, , just because I wasn't that successful in getting a brewing job I thought, why not try this out? And that's how I decided to become an entrepreneur instead, even though I felt it was a foolish thing for me to do, because like I had explained to my Irish partner, I said, you know what? I don't have any business knowledge or acumen. I don't have money to invest in this business. And, you know, I'm a woman, which is very difficult in a country like India to run a business with. So that was my perspective, which of course, then he did not agree with and encouraged me to pursue an entrepreneurial journey.

Host: And as you pursued your entrepreneurial journey, I gather you came up against a lot of hurdles in terms of investment, in terms of growth. And then of course you acquired the company yourself. Could you describe how you then overcame all of those challenges?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Yeah. I very soon realized that whether it was about getting a job or starting a company, there was a huge gender barrier, gender bias, whatever you might call it. And, it all basically stemmed from a huge credibility crisis that women had to overcome. Because I think people just didn't feel that women could run businesses, managed businesses and, you know, basically take calculated risk. So, I think that's the big barrier I was up against. So, banks didn't want to lend to me because they thought I was high risk. People didn't want to work for a woman entrepreneur because they thought I was high risk from job security point of view. And of course, you know, trying to run a business that nobody understood because biotechnology was not a business that anyone understood and that made it even more difficult. So, access to capital was difficult. Recruitment was difficult, and then trying to sell my business for investors or to investors was also very, very difficult.

Host: Now Biocon became the first Indian company to manufacture and export bio enzymes globally. What made you make a turn towards finding biotech solutions, to address healthcare, especially affordable healthcare?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: So, I started my business by developing enzyme technologies, which, you know, at that time was really about greening businesses, you know, moving from chemical technologies to enzyme technologies. Which was an idea way ahead of its time. There was no concept of sustainable development or eco-friendly technologies at that time. And, you know, pollution was the last thing on people's mind. So I think I was trying to basically peddle a technology that nobody found that important to invest in, at least in the Eighties and Nineties.It's only now that people are beginning to look at enzyme technologies very seriously, because we know how difficult and dangerous it is to use chemical pollutants or chemically polluting technologies, which definitely need to be replaced. But 20 years into my journey, I suddenly realized that, you know, I could do a lot more with the technologies that I had developed for enzymes. And one such opportunity was in the area of biopharmaceuticals. I looked at what was happening in India. India was at the epicentre of diabetes. India had alarmingly growing cases of cancer, and many of the new cancer drugs were biologics. And, you know, the most important medication for diabetes was insulin and India was importing every one of these drugs and at very high prices. And I found that most people couldn't access these medicines because of the price point, which was, you know, way beyond their reach. And therefore I felt that I had, I had an opportunity to make a difference, and I felt that if I had technology platforms that I could leverage for biopharmaceuticals, then maybe my sort of raison d’être should be how to reduce the prices of these kinds of ,products, which were so expensive and, unaffordable. And that's what I did. I leveraged all the very exciting technologies that I had developed for enzymes and then, you know, applied them to bio-pharmaceuticals and, you know, we are today, the only insulin producer in the world that uses what we call as a Pichia yeast platform compared to the other insulin manufacturers. And there are just two of them. Maybe I should add a third because the third one, which is Sanofi has actually gone out of diabetes . When I come to, when it comes to cancer drugs, I think, you know, we were the first ones to say, let's develop antibodies because these are going to be very important going forward. And we started with two very novel antibodies and then added bio-similar antibodies because that's what we needed to provide access. And I think that has really sort of worked well for us, if I may say so.

Host: Now Biocon is a transnational corporation, leveraging R &D and innovation to supply lifesaving solutions globally. A corporation that most certainly inspires a whole new generation of scientists and engineers to do more, to sustain the environment, sustained lives and save them as well. But how important is it that there are more women in science, in India being part of that narrative?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: You know, Shivraj when I started by Biocon in 19 78, one of my driving missions was to provide job opportunities for women scientists. . I wanted to create a company that was going to be a go-to company for women, who wanted to pursue these scientific careers. And I can tell you that whilst I've been successful in certain departments, like say R&D and quality and a few of these more scientific aspects of our business. I think I found it very difficult to attract women in other parts of our business, largely because there are certain challenges such as say, in manufacturing, the, scheduling of shifts always makes it, , , a big, Challenge for women to take up manufacturing jobs or for that matter I think, , you know, in marketing, I find that women don't generally gravitate towards those kinds of jobs. And of course, in other parts of the business, I'm trying to now, you know, insist that they employ more women because I really don't think any job is beyond a woman, not even manufacturing or marketing. But it will take some time., I'm very aware of the fact that Indian society is very protective of its women and they don't like them to do any and every job, but I think time will come when women themselves will feel very confident to take on any job. .

Host: And recently you were appointed the first Indian woman to join the board of trustees of the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer centre and named in the Forbes list of a hundred, most powerful women in the world paving the way for others. Do you see these as vindication of your own personal philosophy of always digging in and being unconventional and daring?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: You know, I don't look at this as vindication, but I look at this as an opportunity for every woman who wants to pursue an unconventional path or a differentiated path or basically to, to, to make something out of her life. So, I just feel that women have that potential. Women have what it takes to be successful. And when you succeed, obviously you get recognized and obviously women at this point in time get recognized far more than a man in the, in their category because you know, we are unconventional, we do stand out. So that is why I encourage women to take advantage of this time. When women actually are beginning to get noticed. And the moment you get noticed, obviously you get these opportunities of playing very important roles in every sphere that you're interested in.

Host: Now you sit on many boards - corporations, institutions, non-profits, global research, and academic centres. From that vantage point what do you believe needs to be done to allow more women in science and engineering and healthcare to crash through that glass ceiling?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Well, I think the biggest problem is the mindset. I think you must understand that policy makers are dominated by men. People who recruit are men. People who take decisions of promotions within organizations are also. So, all the skew towards men has to really change. So, although we are looking at boardroom changes, like saying that you must hire, or you must induct at least one woman board member, that's not enough. I think the challenge has to be, how do you get a gender equity in your board, in your workplace? In your leadership. I think that's when you will really start moving the needle. Just by having a few women represented in each part of your business, doesn't make the difference. So I really think we need to basically create all HR policies that incentivize people for diversity and inclusion and especially gender inclusion. Because I think that's what is required to really move the needle. So, I think policies that incentivize people for doing the right thing about gender equity and gender inclusion will be a step in the right direction. I think it should not be about ticking a box. It should be about taking such decisions because they are for the greater good of the business and that they actually show and demonstrate that it is actually driven the business the way, gender equity does. And I think, you know, you keep hearing about all these various statements that, um, if you bridge the gender gap, you can actually realize trillions of dollars of GDP to the global economy. But you know, not enough is being done. I mean, look at during this pandemic, when jobs were laid off, more women were laid off. Even though women are not there in huge numbers, but when it came to laying off jobs, the first people to lose their jobs were women. And then even if you look at the vaccination statistics, it's quite sad that the ratio is skewed in favour of men. So for every 1000 men vaccinated about 870 women are being vaccinated. So even there, there is inequity. So, I think we have to understand that society has to change its perspective. And I think until the woman is acknowledged and recognized as a strong economic growth driver and a growth provider and an economic, an integral member of the economic mainstream, I think , you won't see change the way you should.

Host: Absolutely so systemic change, but now you've all was also been very outspoken. You've gone above and beyond just your corporation and mission you've been involved in many citizen or common causes. How important is it for today's women to really find their voice?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: I think it's extremely important because finding that voice is, is so crucial to what we trying to do to change the world. And if women don't find that voice, then I'm afraid we just can't change the world. I think what is very important is that today in today's world, actually many women are finding their voice. And I think that's a very good sign. So, whether it is, , you know, in the realm of human rights, whether it is in the realm of sustainability, whether it is of course, about gender equity. I think women are beginning to speak up, , including in India. And I think the moment women find their voices, believe me, things do change because the world today does need empathetic leadership and women certainly demonstrate very high levels of empathetic leadership.

Host: And what about the often repeated question, successful women like you always get asked. How do you manage your personal and family life while being this trailblazer? How do you respond to that?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: I think like all women, I think all of us know how to prioritize our lives. I think when we know when family comes first and when business comes first, I think that's the way you have to balance your life. And I think that's the way every person needs to balance their life. . Because it is, life is about prioritization. You cannot do one at the cost of another. That doesn't happen. I think you just have to do what is important and what do you prioritize at which point in your life or, or what the occasion demands.

Host: Now, if I were ask you with the benefit of hindsight and all your personal life experiences and successes, if you had the opportunity to speak to that little girl who seemed disappointed, she didn't become a doctor. What are the two or three things you would say to her?

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: First and foremost, I've realized that, failing is very temporary because I think, , you can pick yourself up and do something else like I did. So I always tell people it's giving up that's final, but failure is temporary. So I think you shouldn't get too deterred by failure because I also believe that making mistakes and failing actually help you to learn. And to finally, it is a stepping stone to success because if you've never had failures, I think learning will be very difficult. And if you don't learn, then the kind of success you might get may not be sustainable.

Host: And finally, your one message for the many women who are listening to this conversation.

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Well, my message to women is, has always been about believing in yourselves, believing in your inner strength and believing that you can do it. And basically finding that confidence to basically prove to yourself and to the world. That you can do it. I think that is really my, my message to women that, you know, I always tell people if I could do it, you can do because you know, I was not some extraordinary woman. I was just a plain simple middle-class young girl. And, , you know, I, of course was very committed. I was very serious in terms of my pursuit and above all I think I have a lot of self-confidence. That is what actually allowed me to succeed.

Host: And role models are important, right? Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw? .

Dr. Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Yeah, I do believe role models are important. But you know, I often worry that very often when you have role models. You have to basically be inspired by them. You don't necessarily need to model yourself against those role models and have to be role models who inspire you. And that's what sort of allows you to shape your own leadership style or your own journey through life.

Host: Dr. Kiran , thank you so much for taking out the the time and speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Dr Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

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In our first episode of the Word to the W.I.S.E podcast we speak to Dr Judy Jeevarajan a global expert in battery safety with a focus on lithium-ion cells.

Dr. Judy is Vice President, Research, Electrochemical Safety Research Institute at Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Prior to that, she spent nearly two decades at NASA space centre in Houston.

A trailblazer Dr Judy by her own admission. worked diligently to create data driven success stories to establish herself as a much-acclaimed leader in her field.

Through Word to the W.I.S.E, we will continue to build on our legacy: driving transformative change in pursuit of a safer and more resilient society by inspiring more young women to envision a career in the field of STEM.

Remember, you too can nominate more remarkable women to be part of the show. Or just send in your questions for future guests on the Word to the WISE podcast.

All you have to do is visit us on saferindiatoday.org.

You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Safer India Today.

Don’t forget to subscribe and like us on your favourite podcast platform.

You can also read along as you listen to the Word to the WISE host Shivraj Parshad in conversation with Dr. Judy Jeevarajan:

Host: Dr Judy, thank you for speaking to the word to the wise podcast.

Dr Judy: Thank you for inviting me Shivraj. And I look forward to speaking to you today,

Host: If I were to ask you to go back in time. Dr Judy, can you recall when it is, you first realized that it was science that you wanted to pursue as a calling.

Dr Judy: I think I was always interested in science you know as a little kid, even in elementary school and middle school. I was very interested in connecting what I learned with what I saw in the real world. I was more interested, because of that, in botany and zoology type subjects. But when I went into high school, my marks in chemistry were the highest. So my mother said, you know, why don't you take chemistry in college? And so I did that and I think that really changed my whole world because I had excellent teachers in chemistry at the college. I studied both undergrad as well as graduate school. And I got so interested in the subject and my mind was always in the area of research. I know I always wanted to have a problem that I could solve. I made it look like a story. I just had a passion for research. So I just went into the area of science.

Host: And that passion is important, Dr Judy, but if I were to ask you, what was that turning point that led you to choose a career in this particular area of specialized research with battery safety?

Dr Judy: Actually, my PhD was in Electrochemistry, but. In the area of carotenoids, carotenoids are antioxidants. And so I was looking at the electrochemical reactions and how the radicals that are produced in our body are actually captured by the oxygen that is released from the carotenoids and prevents cancer formation. So I was studying electro-chemistry, part of it. But when I finished graduate school, I got a job in a small business company and my first project was to make room temperature, ionic, liquid electrolytes for lithium-ion batteries. And that was my first introduction into the field of batteries. And then I spent a year, as a post-doc at Texas A & M university, where I was just given a NASA project on lithium-ion batteries. And, you know, no direction was given. I was just told study them. So I started calling different cell manufacturers and, you know, I was very fortunate that every one of them actually provided me with cells. These were really early in this type of I would say optimization and commercialization of lithium-ion cells. And so, I know I got cells from Sony, Sanyo, Panasonic, SAFT and so on. I really don't know how they gave it to me because I was so fresh, but they did. And,I started studying them. I started cycling them, looking at the electrodes and I really got into it. I also started making my own electrodes in the lab, try to set up a glove box. It was very interesting and I was, uh, I got into that independent mode of research, uh, in graduate school, because that was what was expected from me from my graduate advisor. And so, uh, this was, you know, very interesting for me that they let me lead my own way. So that is how I got introduced to batteries. And then we moved to Houston. My husband first got that job as a NASA contractor. And when we moved to Houston, I was looking for something too. And, fortunately again, they said, Well, we need someone who has something, some knowledge about lithium-ion batteries and, you know, I had the job, within like over a weekend or so. And so I believe strongly in also I'm a very strong religious person. And so, I feel, you know, God always has a plan. And if you just do your own part, then things fall in place.

Host: And coming back to now, why is this area so important to you? Do you feel you can contribute perhaps more to grow its potential?

Dr Judy: Yes. So if you look at how technology has advanced in the past, I would say couple of decades, even if you take the past couple of decades and look at just the last decade, it has grown in leaps and bounds. And so, you know, when you look at that type of technology and the need for energy and power to cover all those new technologies, then you can understand why we need a lot more affordable power. We also have the largest systems like the stationary, and our G storage systems that are really not easily portable, but on the whole, even with all of these, our awareness is actually helping us to get into this field. Like our, our awareness for our environment, you know, is helping us understand that we want to be, we want to have less pollution. Uh, we want to have a healthier environment and also save our resources for the younger generations. So given all of that, I think working in the area of batteries or in general energy storage is very important. So I think, you know, from our point of view, since we have so much experience in looking at what goes on around us and being able to detect that there might be an issue with a certain type of design or a certain type of environment clearly, you know, adds a lot of value. the other thing, I think that people really feel that our contribution is very important is in our thought process. We are very structured in how we do our research, uh, that is a certain flow on how we do it. That, uh, the way we do our work is very organized and very well done. And, our results you know speak for it. As you probably know, we shared our knowledge through conferences, writing, journal articles and so on. So we don't just do the work, but we also share that knowledge in a manner that is easy for others to grasp also. And that is why I think our work is very important.

Host: So clearly Dr Judy, you've taken on a thought leadership role. You're contributing to industries at large, but did you personally have any particular role models by pursuing this career path or was it purely circumstance?

Dr Judy: I did have a lot of respect for women in leadership positions and I always admired, you know, the strength that they had. Because it is perseverance and commitment and passion that brings them to those positions. Because of our society. And the whole world know, has that kind of an attitude where people expect women to have a certain role in the world. I wouldn't say I had a role model. I think it's just probably my teens, my mom, my grandmother, they were all very hard workers and they were very you know, family oriented too. So they knew how to balance between work and, a career. I, myself, was brought up in a very protected environment and I was very timid. I never expected myself to grow in this manner.

Host: Now looking back at your career, especially at NASA, what would you say posed the biggest challenge to your establishing your credentials as a woman scientist, to be reckoned with.

Dr Judy: That was a real challenge for me because there were two disadvantages for me. I wouldn't say disadvantages or 2 points that you know, was against me. One was being a woman. the other one was being a woman of colour. So, you know, you are fighting against people who have a better, you know, they've been brought up here, grown up here. They know how to talk, you know, all y'all are, depending on is your expertise and, you know, your knowledge, of course by the time I was able to express myself really well. Uh, with the data I had, but I had to work very, very hard. And I also, you know, did not grow up in the ladder, because of these limitations. But in general, if you look at my expertise. They were well recognized because of the nature of my work and the fact that I always took data and I explained it to people and I made them understand why we needed to be concerned about certain things. So at the higher levels, I had a lot of respect and that is what really kept me going, because I was working with so many different types of people every day. The problems were different every day and I was helping people everyday, but just all kinds of people. So it was very interesting for me to be doing that. And also, you know, at the end of the day, I had the responsibility of approving all batteries for human operated space flight. And so I took that responsibility also very seriously. People did recognize that some people didn't like me for it, but, uh, you know, uh, people did recognize, that I had the capability.

Host: With the benefit of hindsight though. Dr Judy, what do you think you actually gained by standing your ground? Because you talk about how you take real data and make sure it's so irrefutable, then no one can doubt your expertise. So what, what do you think you actually gained by standing your ground?

Dr Judy: So safety, right? When you think about, what I was doing, this was batteries being flown in space for a human rated environment, and it's a confined environment. When we were there, we had the policy of zero tolerance to fire. And I took it very seriously because you kind of actually know these crew members. And even if you don't, you know, you'll realize these are humans, you know, just like you and losing anyone is a huge tragedy. We all felt that because we were there during the Columbia days and the crew was, uh, with the accident it was very heart-breaking. My goal was to make sure that we never took any shortcuts. And so, you know, there were times when I had to actually do, on my own, funding do testing, for projects that did not do the work they were supposed to do. And we would keep the technicians around the clock to get that work done before the batteries were flown. So, I wanted to be sure that, that I did not lose sleep on this. And, uh, that is what I think was important for me to show that, you know, things can happen that we could prevent. Where you could reduce the risk that's why I was very passionate about making sure that we were safe and that I actually had data to show to people that; this is what happens if you don't have this, the safety precaution or control.

Host: And clearly you, you went the extra mile, and you went above and beyond Dr. Judy. So how did that make you feel when you were doing all this to make sure that the larger picture, the bigger picture, the mission was the one in sight.

Dr Judy: Yeah, it really makes you feel good. Right. You know, when I was getting ready to leave, there were many people, including the program manager for the International Space Station who, , called me up personally and was, uh, they were very upset that I was leaving, you know, the words he said was, what is She going to do without you? And the, she was space station. So you really, you know, feel good, when of course I knew he always respected me because, you know, we had a very good, you know, anytime I typically never had to go there, but then there were times when there were really big controversies and so I would need to be at the meeting personally. And so, you know, I've talked to him a few times and, and so he knew where I came from, and he also knew that I had a good balance. So that made me feel good that people respected me and had the trust in me and so on. So looking back, even there I would say because of that trust and that respect, that was why, I kept going, even though there were other pressures, that, were a bit discouraging.

Host: Now there is a tendency amongst some women to believe they can't have it all. A career in science and a great personal life. Where do you think this comes from? And do you believe it is changing?

Dr Judy: I think, everyone's life is very different. Every family's very different. And so what I will say, I mean, I've tried to advise people but I really think it's up to them to find a balance. So I'll just give you an example of my own, you know, family life. I have 3 kids and I had my first one when I was doing my Masters, my second and third, when I was doing my PhD. So, I worked very hard. Eight hours a day was my time in the lab. Of course, I had to study after that, after cooking and cleaning, and of course my husband helped me a little bit by watching the children while I was cooking. But then it was a struggle, but then that also made me accelerate, you know, what I had to do and I finished my, graduate school or PhD in three and a half years. But going into the job situation. You know, kids were in school. My husband would never take off from work. And, you know, slowly I started traveling, as they got older. I got to go to conferences mainly. And, uh, the only condition my husband, put was he said, when they have exams, you need to be at home. That was the only thing he said. You know, later as they got into high school, I was able to do more, go to review meetings and conferences and so on. And then my travel of course started to get more intense, but family always came first for me. So I think it's up to, up to everyone to find a balance that will work for them. And also, you know, be happy about what the decisions you make. There should not be any looking back and saying, oh, I wish it wasn't like that or I wish I had done it this way. I think everything happens for a reason. And if you can work as a family and find a balance for yourself, that would be the best thing that can happen.

Host: And, you know, in the past there were many more trade-offs that women had to make and you've alluded to your personal life and kind of the balance you brought about. Do you think it's changing, looking around you, other the women that you interact with or meet?

Dr Judy: A little bit. Like I said, sometimes I see. certain women especially from our Indian origin who think that to have a career is to be by themselves in whatever part of the world they want to be and, leaving the family behind and and doing things like that. And I don't know their circumstances. But I really feel that, you know, the best part of your life is that every time on your life has a purpose. Right? So I feel like they are losing a big part of their lives when they do that. I sometimes try to tell them, you know, why don't you find something where you can have a balance. I think the younger generation is quite different, but if you look at my generation, people, women are still struggling with finding a balance between work and home because they don't get too much of a support at home. But with the younger generation, I see more of sharing of responsibilities and more of discussions between, you know, husband and wife and more understanding. And so I think this is a positive thing.

Host: Now coming back to your work. Dr. Judy, what has been the most fulfilling part of your work?

Dr Judy: The most fulfilling part, I think is the mentoring part. So, what I learned I like to share it. I've been very fortunate to work with graduate students from different universities. The fact that I have some knowledge that I can share has been giving me a lot of satisfaction because not everyone can learn everything from a book. You have to have the practical knowledge and everyone does not get the hands-on experience that I've been able to get. So, mentoring students, with all the information that I have, really has been very fulfilling for me.

Host: And that brings me to our final question, which is of course, linked to what you just said. For those young women listening to this conversation. What is the one piece of advice you would give them?

Dr Judy: This is something that I tell a lot of students. There are two things that I would say, you know, that it will be good for them to follow, which is passion and perseverance. So, if you have passion for what you do, then, you know, you can develop the perseverance and you can achieve what you want to do. Those are the two main things I think are very important in life. I have had several people, especially, you know, young children ask me, how do I get to work at NASA? Do I need to be an aerospace engineer? Do I need to learn about rockets and so on? And I tell them, you know, NASA needs everyone, from a photographer who can take really good pictures to someone who can actually make that rocket go into outer space. So there's a whole, you know, hundreds of different fields between that and this. You should be able to put in that commitment and have that commitment and perseverance to put in all the work that is required to reach that goal where if that goal is to work at NASA. Whatever you like, develop a passion for it, and persevere to do the best in that area.

Host: Passion and perseverance. Dr Judy, thank you ever so much for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

Dr Judy: Thank you, Shivraj.

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