Shela Chan joins us to discuss her journey to faith and the research that now shapes her work at the intersection of queer theology, ethics, and social science. Drawing on her own story and doctoral research, Shela examines how theology and empirical insights can inform Christian understandings of human flourishing, belonging, and trauma while challenging the ways churches can unintentionally marginalize LGBTQ people.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

★ About Our Guest:

Shela Chan is a Ph.D. student of Theological and Social Ethics at Fordham University in New York. Her background includes mission work in Afro-Eurasia, and she holds a Master of Divinity degree from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Her academic research focuses on holistic human development and flourishing at the intersection of sexuality and attachment theory. You can find her on Instagram @shechannnnn.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #85 - Shela Chan: Reflections on Social Science and Christian Ethics

(02:17) Shela’s story: From queer liberation to finding yourself in Jesus

(18:18) Post-conversion: Queer experience, spiritual growth

(41:57) How we interpret the Bible determines where we end up

(47:00) Can Adam and Eve be archetypes for us today?

(58:15) The archetype of the eunuch and the “ideal male”

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★ Links and References

The Romance of Innocent Sexuality, Geoffrey Rees (2011)
About Tim Keller’s gay brother: https://ap.org.au/2024/10/01/timothy-kellers-brother/

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Producer: Elena F. ★

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As Side B Christians, we’ve done a lot of discernment around the ethics, practice, and vocation of celibacy (celibacy = practicing sexual chastity as an unmarried person), including discernment around lifelong vows of celibacy. In our own journeys, we’ve uncovered myths we’ve believed and encountered myths in our Christian communities.

We argue that celibacy and mixed-orientation-marriages are included in Side B, we reject the idea that celibacy necessarily means loneliness in the kingdom of God, we challenge the view that celibacy is merely sexual repression, we explain how vows can add goods (clarity, focus, support), we critique assumptions that marriage is actually superior, we demystify superstitions regarding celibacy and sanctification, and we contend that celibacy is a public vocation worthy of communal celebration.

We’d love to hear what you think after you give a listen!

Key Scriptures Referenced:

Matthew 19:4-5 “eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven”

1 Corinthians 7:9 “it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

1 Corinthians 7:32–34 “an unmarried person is concerned about the Lord’s affairs”

Matthew 12:48-50 Who are my kin but “those who do the will of my Father?”

Hebrews 4:15 “tempted in every way common to man yet without sin”

Matthew 6:28 “lilies of the field”

Time Stamps:

00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab 5

00:30 Why Celibacy Came Up

02:23 Myth 1: Celibacy as a Mandate

05:12 Marriage Paths and Barriers

07:03 Language Celibate vs Single

09:54 Myth 2: Celibacy is Loneliness

12:51 Single Mindedness and Freedom

17:03 Myth 3: Celibacy is Repression

21:07 Desire Struggle and 1 Corinthians 7

24:53 Marriage Is Not the Only Tool

25:59 Marriage Isn’t a Fix

26:24 Sexual Baggage in Marriage

27:10 Myth 4: Celibacy Vows Don’t Add Anything Good

33:24 Vows as Covenant Deepening

36:50 Myth 5: Marriage Is Actually Better Than Celibacy

40:48 Myth 6: Celibacy Vows Are a Level-Up

48:40 Myth 7: Celibacy Shouldn’t Be Celebrated Like Marriage

58:12 Kingdom Public Witness

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Jon-Michael Shelley, a youth pastor in Atlanta, joins David and TJ to share about his journey as a Side B Christian from a Southern Baptist upbringing into the Anglican tradition. He discussed how liturgy, community, and pastoral care shaped his healing and vocation, and how he has come to understand sexuality as an integrated part of faithful discipleship and ministry. Jon-Michael also reflected on calling, celibacy, church leadership, and why he believes Side B Christians have meaningful gifts to offer the church.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

★ About Our Guest

Jon-Michael Shelley is a youth pastor and preacher in the Anglican Church of North America. He’s mentored and discipled young people in church and parachurch ministries for ten years. He has a passion for fostering rich conversations about the deep truths of Christian life among young people and inviting them into relationship with the God who made them. He can be reached via email: jonmichael@immanuelatl.org or on Instagram: @jonmichaelshelley

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #84 - Finding Space in the Anglican Church: Jon-Michael Shelley on Side B, Vocation, and Leadership

(01:28) Jon-Michael’s story

(10:07) How I ended up Anglican

(15:27) Sexuality growing up: Going under the radar

(24:09) Youth pastoring and parent perception in liberal secular environments

(28:38) Why are you Side B?

(40:28) Unique gifts in ministry as a gay man

(44:55) How did you change your take on getting married?

(50:13) Ordination in the ACNA?

(58:50) Hopes for the Anglican church on faith/sexuality topics

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

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What's the big deal about celibate partnerships?!

Pieter Valk wrote an article in 2023 with a significant critique on celibate partnerships, but in 2026 he made significant revisions with an expanded imagination for the possibility and goodness that these kinds of relationships can play for Christians who are looking to live chaste lives within relationships of belonging and mutual care.

If you are new to the conversation, here is a brief description: celibate partnerships are long-term committed relationships between two people (typically of the same sex) who regard each other as their primary life partner, yet, unlike marriage, their relationship is not open to sexual activity.

The validity and shape of these relationships have been a prominent conversation and debate within the Side B community, so we’re grateful for the opportunity to read Pieter Valk’s thoughts and offer some of our own. We’d love to hear what you think after you give a listen! Here’s a few questions to stir your thinking:

Do you think conservative churches can embrace the possibility of celibate partnerships based on Pieter’s accommodation argument? or would they be better suited to develop an expanded imagination for friendship and spiritual siblinghood?

How do you think different forms of partnerships compete or complement investments into serving community or other facets of pursuing God?

What are the practical needs that people have, regardless of whether they are celibate or not, that need to be seriously considered?

References:

A thoughtful article by our friend Pieter Valk: https://equipyourcommunity.org/celibate-partnerships/

Time Stamps:

00:00 Kinship Lab #4 - Celibate Partnerships

01:19 Revoice Buzz

02:38 Why This Episode

07:08 Defining Celibate Partnership

10:29 Valk’s Argument Overview

15:43 Tapestry of Kinship

19:32 Strengths of the Article

24:17 Core Critiques

33:18 Romance and Vocation Boundaries

36:49 Biblical Examples and Categories

42:33 (Mis)Using Love Bible Verses and Inspiration for Partnership

46:35 Not Marriage Lite

55:00 Hot Take on Growth

01:00:28 Why Marriage Is Unique

01:05:23 Explaining Celibate Partnerships Publicly

01:10:36 Distinctions, Research, and Pastoral Anxiety

01:16:16 Constructive Feedback Wishlist

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How do the comparisons we use for queer sexuality shape the way we think, believe, and respond to one another? TJ and podcast manager Elena explore—with new and previous guests—some metaphors Christians use to understand “being gay.” We talked strengths and limitations of each metaphor and how it can impact the lives of LGBTQ+ people. Take a listen, and then join the conversation on Substack!

Note: This episode uses the term “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #83 - “Being Gay Is Like...” The Metaphors We Use for Homosexuality

(00:38) Our metaphors shape our thinking

(07:53) “Being gay is like a disease”

(22:42) “Being gay is a curse...or worse...”

(33:40) “Being gay is like being an alcoholic”

(43:44) “Being gay is... an abomination...”

(56:21) “Being gay is like...an appetite [for food]”

(01:12:14) “Being gay is like being heterosexual”

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★ Links and References

Other episodes we referred to in this podcast:

21 - Tate’s Story: Growing Up Gay in Texas

24 - African Voices: Mwendia Shares on Same-Sex Attraction in Kenya

52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom

54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

34 - Interview with a Longstanding Side B Ally, Misty Irons

Quoted: Catholic Answers Tract on “Homosexuality”: www.catholic.com/tract/homosexuality

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support:

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

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David and TJ talked with Akwasi in Ghana about growing up Pentecostal while wrestling with same-sex attraction (SSA). Akwasi shares candidly about the cultural and church pressures surrounding sexuality and marriage in Ghana, and his commitment to pursuing holiness and discipleship even as his attractions remain. He also reflects on the challenges SSA Christians face in his context and his hope to support others through discipleship and community.

Note: This episode includes some comments suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

About Our Guest: Akwasi is a Ghanaian Christian leader, creative strategist, and youth mentor passionate about discipling the next generation through faith and leadership. He is involved in building impactful initiatives that blend spiritual formation, mentorship, creativity, and community transformation, with a strong focus on young people in Ghana. He is committed to raising holistic believers and leaders who live boldly, think deeply, and influence society with conviction and excellence.

One of those initiatives is FOUND: Foundafric.org

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This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #82 - African Voices: Akwasi on Same-Sex Attraction in Ghana

(04:10) About Akwasi: Growing up in Pentecostal Africa

(06:39) Role playing mothers and fathers, other early history

(16:21) How does the church (and wider culture) in Ghana handle men “being gay” or being effeminate?

(35:27) SSA in Ghana: “Not many people name it”

(42:37) Friendships between men in U.S. compared to Ghana

(49:24) Do you pray for God to take away SSA (as a pentecostal)?

(51:38) What options does a SSA man in Ghana have? Celibacy, priest, only marriage?

(55:44) How do you think about dating (in some African culture)?

(01:03:03) Is having a best friend outside your marriage “emotional cheating”?

(01:15:59) Does Ghana have Side A? Why aren’t you Side A?

(01:22:51) Final Thoughts: Prayers for SSA men in the African Church

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

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Following up on our earlier conversations, we engage the Side B project. Yes, project. Side B is often thought of as a community of queer/SSA Christians committed to the traditional, Christian sexual ethic. But the Side B project is much bigger than just being honest about not being straight and being steadfast in our theological ethics. We review and riff of Grant Hartley’s article on this very topic.

Questions for those who listen (and actually listen, because Side B has enough online trolls who don’t engage in real dialogue and just think we’re some new edge of whatever the gay agenda is):

Are there any other aspects of the Side B project that you think we forgot mention?

Which aspect of the the Side B project most resonates with your own passions?

References:

A well-written article by our friend Grant Hartley:

Grant's Substack

What Exactly Is the Side B Project?

Okay, what follows is a fairly niche reflection on the nature of the so-called Side B community (sexual and gender minorities who submit to what is often called a “traditional sexual ethic”), but before some of my readers who are not Side B (particularly my Side A friends) check out, let me say: I do honestly believe th…

10 months ago · 32 likes · 4 comments · Grant Hartley

Time Stamps:

00:00 Good morning!01:10 Why Discuss Side B03:13 Hartley’s Essay Summary06:27 Tyler Reacts: Missing "Desire"16:51 David Frank’s Goal: Prophetic Witness23:07 Boundaries, Labels, Therapy25:49 Trans/Gender Minority Questions37:23 Worth Discussing, eh?39:47 Side B Diversity44:16 Unity Beyond Movements49:11 Prophetic Schools and Boundaries54:24 Love over Ideology, Goods before Critiques01:03:27 We can have unity on paths of celibacy, right?01:08:49 Wrap Up and Community Plug01:13:10 After-show thoughts on new Google Icons

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We are glad to have Mwendia Steve Kiengu back on the podcast to hear about his ministry in Kenya and across Africa.

Found is a ministry to build a Christ-centered community walking alongside believers experiencing same-sex orientation and gender dysphoria, guiding them toward truth, love, and belonging. This is the only Side B ministry in the entire continent of Africa (Side B integrates experiences of same-sex attraction within a historic biblical sexual ethic), with an estimated 7-25 million Christians on the continent experiencing same-sex attraction. It’s a vital ministry for the African church.

__________

Links and social media platforms:

Found Ministry: https://foundafric.org/

Facebook: FoundAfrica

Instagram: @foundafrika

TikTok: @foundafrika1

Giving Link: https://secure.qgiv.com/for/supportfound

Steve’s Story Episode on New Kinship: #24

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Have you heard of Revoice? If not, then maybe that’s because you’ve been living in the woods… or in the closet. Come tune in and hear an update on what’s going on at the Revoice Conference and beyond from Revoice's founder and President, Nate Collins. TJ, Tyler, and David get to hear from Nate about the changes in the ministry over the years, including the change in the scope of the ministry as it relates to gender minorities. Towards the end they each share about what’s special about Revoice Conference and why they keep coming back.

https://www.revoice.org/

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The whole gang talked with Erin Moniz—Baylor University chaplain, Anglican deacon, and author of the excellent book Knowing and Being Known—about developing a Christian theology of intimacy. Erin’s approach to intimacy offers as a valuable critique for our culture’s obsession with romance and sex. Even more importantly, she offers a positive theological vision, exploring how friendships, family, and community relationships can become primary places where we are known, loved, and formed in Christ—with specific thoughts for queer/same-sex-attracted Side B Christians. We hope you’ll give this episode, and Erin’s book, a listen!

About Our Guest

Rev. Erin F. Moniz (DMin, Trinity School for Ministry) is a deacon in the Anglican Church in North America and Associate Chaplain and Director for Chapel at Baylor University, where she disciples emerging adults and journeys with them toward healthy, gospel-centered relationships. You can find her at erinfmoniz.com.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand for specific Christian perspectives on gay/queer sexuality. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #81 - Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships, with Erin Moniz

(03:11) Erin’s background, serving emerging adults, Side B connections

(07:32) “We lack a robust theology of intimacy”

(15:03) “I can live without sex, but I cannot live without intimacy”

(18:53) Romance idolatry leads to hypersexualization

(22:57) What’s the difference: “Romance” vs. “Intimacy”?

(28:22) When values conflict: autonomy vs. vulnerability

(33:29) How AI bots could shape our intimacy

(37:12) Can intimate relationships be “economic” also?

(47:03) Are queer Christians better at healthy relationships?

(52:36) Your advice to: “I’m falling in love with my friends”

(01:01:15) Encouragement: You were made for intimacy on purpose by God

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★ Links and References

Knowing and Being Known: Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships (IVP ): www.ivpress.com/knowing-and-being-known

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

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In light of the Colorado Supreme Court case Charles v. Salazar and prior conversation with Julia Sadusky and other conversations with Side X guests, we dig into Conversion Therapy (also called Reparative or Reintegrative Therapy), particularly how it intersects notions around the fluidity of sexuality. Reports on sexual fluidity opens new questions to the ethics of conversation therapies, and maybe different analysis has to why the “change is possible” narratives (e.g. Exodus Ministries) were so destructive. But maybe alternative approaches like “bisexual responsiveness” via Camille Paglia (see the linked Cracks in Postmodernity essay) suggest a different outlook on the whole affair, and open doors to intriguing considerations of the queer experience and same-sex friendship/romantic friendship.

References:

A fascinating article with so many intriguing quotes:

Cracks in Postmodernity: Conversion Therapy vs. Bisexual Responsiveness

Our episodes about/with Side X guests:

54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

48 - What Is Transformation? with Agape First Ministries

41 - Unexpected Shifts: Josh’s Story of Prayer, Healing, and Attraction

35 - Marco Casanova on Integration, Healing, and Orientation

Time Stamps:

00:00 Have you thought of joining us at Revoice?

02:31 Kinship Lab on Conversion Therapy

04:09 Sexual Fluidity Debate

06:33 Tyler’s Harvard Story

10:46 Exodus and Pray Away Documentary

14:39 Modern Reorientation Claims

19:14 Identity Versus Desire/Attraction

24:25 Side B Growth and Chastity

28:19 Defining Attraction, Sanctification and Bisexual Responsiveness

35:36 On Noticing Beauty and Desire

40:53 Paglia and Rigid Labels

45:50 Sexual Category Origins, Queer Identity, and Fluidity

51:29 Friendship Versus Therapy

57:14 Chastity and Same Sex Love

01:04:35 Romantic Friendship Debate

01:06:07 Humility and Closing Thoughts

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Our friend Neth is a father, grandfather, and licensed counselor—and at the first Revoice conference in 2018, he came out to himself as gay, at the age of 54. In this episode, Neth reflected on growing up in an abusive Christian home and how this experience shaped decades of his life. Speaking both personally and professionally, he talked with us about mixed-orientation marriages, why naming yourself “gay” isn’t merely negative self-talk but an act of honesty, and why he ultimately finds Side B compelling. See also (01:05:42): Neth’s advice for people considering therapy.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” But just briefly, here’s how people often use these terms:

“Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Beyond that agreement, in essence:

“Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience using a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.
”Side X” tends to emphasize the idea that sexual orientation can change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”
“Side Y” tends to avoid any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #80 - Neth’s Story: Coming Out of the Closet at 54

(03:44) About Neth; and coming out after 54 years

(18:46) Suppressing or repressing, and walking “normally”

(31:41) A mixed orientation marriage, “arousal templates”

(43:55) Healing looks like accepting myself

(50:03) Gay marriage can’t produce babies

(57:09) Is saying I’m gay “negative self talk,” or a map of reality?

(01:00:45) Seeking church family

(01:05:42) Encouragements for listeners: Get in therapy

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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Logan Morrison is a trans man who leads Kaleidoscope’s trans outreach ministry in New York City. Logan talked with TJ and Tyler about coming out as trans and losing a job over it, and how Christian gospel and Christian communities had positive and negative impacts on him and many others. Tune in also for conversations about: how we distinguish experiences of gender vs. sexuality (”are you trans, or are you just lesbian?”), barriers for trans people in churches (exclusion, pronouns, bathrooms, stereotypes), and some practical steps for Christians wanting to serve and engage trans people (whether or not they’re Christians).

About Our Guest: Logan (he/him) serves as the Trans Care Specialist and Community Outreach Coordinator at Kaleidoscope Ministries, where he walks alongside trans individuals with compassion, advocacy, and faith-centered support. Through unexpected turns in his own journey, Logan discerned a calling to steward his trans experience as a bridge for creating space to share the hope of the gospel with other trans folks in authentic and relational ways. He lives in NYC with his chosen family and three dogs.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #79 - Logan Morrison on Practical Steps for Reaching the Transgender Community

(01:56) About Logan

(03:45) Moving into trans ministry with Kaleidoscope

(10:35) Coming to a definition of “trans”--and of the gospel

(19:54) Barriers and misunderstandings: Being asked to leave, politicization

(26:51) What’s the difference between sexuality and gender experience?

(35:17) How’d you decide you were trans and not lesbian?

(49:56) How my theology leads loving outreach to trans people

(52:24) Advice to Christians wanting to engage/support trans people

(59:44) What gives me hope: Some trans people don’t have baggage with the gospel

(01:03:30) Words for trans listeners

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★ Links and References

Ragamuffin Gospel: https://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Brennan-Manning/dp/1576737160

Kaleidoscope USA: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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The Ragamuffin Gospel: Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt Out

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Tyler Parker, David Frank, and TJ introduce a new monthly-ish podcast format called the Kinship Lab, created to reflect on recent interviews/events or other emerging ideas. Comment below on any questions or topics you’d like to see in the future.

In this first Kinship Lab, they reflect on a recent two-day summit of a handful of Side B leaders, emphasizing growing capacity for fruitful conversation amid differences and experienced trauma. Questions at play: What is Side B? How should Side B engage trans and gender-dysphoria experiences theologically and pastorally? How can Side B respond to ongoing debates about celibate partnerships? Can Side B leadership develop breadth, depth, accountability, and maybe even create a common covenant? Is Side B a gift for Q/SSA people, or for the whole church?

00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab

02:23 Future of Side B | Why Call It Project

04:25 Summit Setup and Hopes

05:18 Building Trust Through Tension

09:47 Defining Side B Today

14:11 Gender Questions Rising

17:16 Celibate Partnerships Debate

18:53 Learning From Experts

24:01 Global Voices Needed

26:38 Leader Accountability and Unity

29:51 Movement Longevity and Visibility

32:00 Towards a Side B Covenant

33:28 Gender and Queer Culture

35:24 Unity and Accountability

40:57 Why Statements Matter

42:56 Side B as Liberatory Gift

44:45 Theology Group Takeaways

51:44 Closing and Next Topics

55:14 Listener Feedback and Farewell

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Eve Tushnet (writer and cofounder of Building Catholic Futures) joined Tyler, TJ, and David to talk about forms of kinship beyond marriage—specifically vows of friendship or lifelong celibate partnership. Eve reflects on her own journey to Catholicism, to serving the church as a gay Christian, and to discerning a lifelong partnership herself.

★ About Our Guest

Eve Tushnet is the author of two award-winning books on gay Christians' spiritual journeys. She is the co-founder of Building Catholic Futures, which equips Catholic institutions to serve and share the Gospel with gay people. She lives in California with her partner and children. You can email Eve at eve@buildingcatholic.org.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership

(00:34) Eve’s background: Secular Jewish to gay Catholic

(02:55) Building Catholic Futures for mission, for leadership

(08:07) Core ideas: Spiritual journeys, perspectives, and storytelling

(15:16) Churches: What small things can build trust?

(18:13) Imagining a future of kinship beyond marriage

(27:05) What to do with the rarity of vowed friendship

(34:09) How Eve met her partner

(39:56) How do you think about “romance” in your celibate partnership?

(48:43) Children? Taking responsibility for each other’s families

(54:13) Are you sisters? Friends? Life partners? Kin?

(57:21) Clergy to support your making of vows?

(58:18) Loving people means choosing pain

(01:07:58) Advice for people discerning kinships and partnerships

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★ Links and References

Building Catholic Futures: https://buildingcatholic.org/

Tenderness (2021): https://www.avemariapress.com/products/tenderness

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Eve’s photo: Anthony Esser | Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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In Part 2 of our conversation, Odessa offers a deeply reflective exploration of gender through philosophical, theological, and lived lenses. From mushrooms to Aristotle to Christian eschatology, Odessa invites each of us into a nuanced dialogue about embodiment, faithfulness, and what holiness and hospitality might look like amid contemporary debates about gender.

Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/76-bearing-witness-through-change

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman"

(02:29) "The project of pursuing womanhood"

(07:37) Self-emptying: There's no privilege with being trans

(08:25) Defining: Gender

(12:09) Do souls have a gender?

(15:56) Is being trans "maladaptive" to the social order?

(19:57) The project of manhood or womanhood: Can we opt out?

(25:50) Side B schools of thought: Identity and family

(32:43) Doesn't gender dysphoria sometimes resolve?

(39:39) Youth transition: "Not a problem we can solve politically"

(42:34) Ivan Illich: Maybe our whole society is a little gender dysphoric

(48:01) Connections to transhumanism

(53:24) Spiritual experience of queer people vs. cis people

(59:08) Ideological hospitality? In Christ there is no male and female

(01:05:41) Gendered souls? Reflections on Pauline eschatology

(01:15:38) The way of holiness in the trans experience

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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In this episode, Odessa—a transgender woman and former Anglican priest—shares her journey of transition alongside a deep wrestling with faith, vocation, and identity. She reflects on growing up with alienation and shame, the freedom she’s found in embracing her femininity, and the costs of that journey for her family, church, and relationships. Odessa also explores the intersections of gender, neurodivergence, and spirituality. We appreciate her a candid reflection on seeking wholeness without easy answers.

This is Part 1 of 2—listen to Part 2 here when it’s available: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-odessa-the-barefoot-on-being

Note: This episode uses the term “Side B” as shorthand a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #76 - Bearing Witness through Change: Odessa the Barefoot on Transition, Faith, and Femininity

(02:45) Gender transition is a discontinuous experience

(06:04) Looking for words to share with a trusted adult

(18:34) Discontinuities: Being in seminary, married, autogynephilia

(23:18) Honoring prior commitments by not outwardly transitioning

(27:03) “My metaphysics does not allow” for hormones to be this effective...

(37:24) The project(s) of femininity and womanhood

(40:25) Theological traditions and eccentric Anglican priests

(43:54) Same-sex attraction was different than gender/trans experience for me

(46:46) Being released from prior commitments: Trans impact on family, church

(56:19) Bearing witness: ministering to others

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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David Frank and TJ talked with historian Dr. Dan Hummel about why many Evangelical Christians support the modern state of Israel—and its implications for kinship between Christians and Jews. Dan traces the theological roots of Christian Zionism, the rise of dispensational theology, and some political and social effects we see today. We also covered how Christians have related to Jewish communities more broadly, and what kinship can or should look like for us, going forward.

★ About Our Guest

Daniel G. Hummel is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, WI and a research fellow in the History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He received his PhD in American Religious History from UW-Madison. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023) and Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli Relations (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019). You can also find him at www.danielghummel.com.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #75 - Christian-Jewish Kinship and Theology: Dan Hummel on Christian Zionism(03:24) Dan’s history with Israel and Evangelicals(09:50) Ask an academic: define “evangelical”(13:47) Ask an academic: define “Christian Zionism”(17:31) Christian Zionism goes back to the 16th century(20:54) What IS dispensationalism?(25:13) Dispensationalism: So, is God a polygamist?(28:08) What does “supporting Israel” mean to Christian Zionists?(33:04) Zionism also relates: Judeo-Christian values, anti-Islam, American politics(39:21) What theology is needed, to be pro-peace for Israel/Palestine? (47:27) How can, and should, Christians think about their relationship to Jews? (01:00:50) Final thoughts: What we hold sacred

—

★ Links and References

The “Bebbington Quadrilateral” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Bebbington
For some of the political dynamics to Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s article in New Lines Magazine on the political unrest in Israel, pre-Oct 7: newlinesmag.com/argument/israels-current-crisis-exposes-christian-zionisms-contradictory-ideals
For some theological and interfaith dimensions of Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s 2018 essay for Aeon: aeon.co/essays/christian-zionism-the-interfaith-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight
G. Douglas Young, the founder of Bridges for Peace, a prominent Christian Zionist organization, wrote The Bride and the Wife (1960).

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

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Taka Chan has been a queer, celibate Christian in campus ministry long enough to have seen both deep friendships and losses. He joined David and TJ to share stories of friends, pastors, and communities who have walked with him—and those who haven’t. We hope you’re encouraged by his reflections on God’s provision, even in the midst of uncertainty about what comes next.

About Our Guest

Taka Chan was born and raised in rural Hawaiʻi and has been working in college campus ministry for 18 years. He loves gardening, cooking for large groups of people, and taking classes at the Y with a bunch of grandmas. Ask him about his recent TV binges (The Pitt, Pachinko, Abbott Elementary) and what homework he’d suggest if you intend to visit Hawaiʻi. You can email him at [takachanaloha -at- gmail.com].

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #74 - “If We Say We Love LGBT People...” Taka Chan on College Ministry and Faithfulness

(01:11) Taka Chan: Hawai’i, family, coming out to myself and others

(06:55) College in the time of ex-gay thought

(11:55) “I try to be gentle with my younger self”

(18:00) Single and married to everyone

(23:49) Pastors going to bat for you

(32:02) What do you do when friendships fail?

(41:30) Evangelical ministry: If we’re saying we love LGBT people...how?

(56:17) An employee resource group: we won’t be frozen in fear any more

(01:00:46) Intersections: Being queer, being Japanese and Chinese

(01:07:52) Why are you not Side A?

(01:11:55) Being an “elder” in the Side B movement, and those who came before

(01:15:20) What’s the future for you? (Intentional community?)

—

★ Links and References

Two Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!:

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship or newkinship.substack.com

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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Sometimes--as in the case of Rev. Zach from Ep. 73--we record an episode with folks and then, before we can release it, life takes interesting turns. Since talking to us 6 months ago, Zach is in the process of leaving the Episcopal denomination in the US and considering his ministerial call in a new way. He stopped by (metaphorically) to update us and share some more thoughts. We’re grateful for his ongoing discernment and willingness to bring us along!

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Reverend Zach joins TJ and David to share his unexpected journey from being in a same-sex marriage (Side A) to embracing a historic Christian sexual ethic (Side B). Raised Roman Catholic and shaped by a call to ministry, Zach talked about the questions that surfaced during seminary, how getting married changed his understanding of marriage, his longing for friendship, and the theologians and writers who shaped his thinking.

We appreciate Rev. Zach’s honesty, insight, and experience with navigating life and ministry as a Side B priest in a largely Side A denomination.

—What’s happened since? Come back on 12/11 for a bonus follow-up episode from Zach since this episode: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-catching-up-with-zach-6-months

—

★ About Our Guest

Rev. Zach ministers to the people of Long Island, NY and recently wrapped up his chaplaincy residency at Stony Brook University Hospital. You’ll most likely find him deep in a Jacques Ellul book or rooting for his favorite team, the Detroit Tigers. You can contact him on Instagram: @zach_enthusiastic

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B

(02:10) How old are you? And other awkward life questions

(17:53) A call to the priesthood

(27:13) “Have you heard of Wesley Hill?” (and many others)

(35:12) William Stringfellow had a big impact

(41:44) Becoming Side B, engaging Side A

(48:47) Was the breakup more relational or theological?

(55:27) It’s about the covenantal nature of God

(59:58) Does your Episcopalian church know you’re side B?

(01:05:01) Why stay in a “big tent” church?

(01:08:03) Beyond Side A: What does a marriage covenant mean?

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

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Dear listeners, join me on a special story with my neighbor Martina. She has fled to the US as an asylum-seeker in fear of her life from persecution and murderous extortion. Since then, she’s become not only a friend, but a partner in neighborhood hospitality and church community!

Her ability to stay here is literally a matter of life and death, so some friends and I raised funds to help cover her legal fees so she could be represented in immigration court and fight to stay here. I'm grateful to God for all who helped leverage their resources to support this case. Thanks friends!

Sincerely,

David

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction to Martina’s Story

(04:15) Martina’s Life in Ecuador

(05:31) Martina’s Entrepreneurial Journey

(12:21) Facing Extortion and Corruption

(21:18) Fleeing to the United States

(22:24) Life in the United States

(25:04) Finding Hope and Community

(34:08) Reflections and Future Hopes

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Dr. Julia Sadusky, a Catholic and licensed psychologist from Colorado, joins David and TJ to unpack the Chiles vs. Salazar Supreme Court case and what’s behind the debates around conversion therapy. Julia talks about how she brings together her faith and psychology, and why—as a conservative Christian—she chose to support Colorado’s ban on “conversion therapy” for minors, through an amicus brief.

We are grateful for the nuance and clarity Julia offers in this (often heated and stressful) conflict in the courts and in our church circles, and we invite you to take that same posture of openness and care, as you listen.

★ About Our Guest

Dr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor’s degree from Ave Maria University and a master’s degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality, with her most recent two-book series entitled, “Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2023) and “Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2024). You can find her at juliasadusky.com.

—

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A,” “Side B,” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to that conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Quick intro, Side A, Side B, Side X

(02:58) Introducing Julia: Now you know a psychologist from Delaware

(06:17) How (can) psychology and Christian faith go together

(08:17) What is conversion therapy?

(12:33) Conversion therapy success rates? Digging into Joseph Nicolosi’s research

(22:47) What about “reintegrative therapy”? Measuring “change in attraction”

(25:59) History of changing diagnoses, reports on conversion therapy

(29:21) OK, so, the current case: Chiles vs. Salazar

(40:40) Is this more about conversion therapy? or religious freedom? Is therapy “speech”?

(45:58) How do contemporary trans politics overlap (or hype) this case?

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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What is the nature of sin and desire? At a theological level?

We’re diving in with Joel Carini (from The Natural Theologian) for a theological conversation about desire, sin, attraction, and the resources that the reformed theological tradition has (or doesn’t have) for same-sex-attracted, celibate Christians. Also includes: comparisons to psychology vs. biblical counseling, and how Harry Potter had comparable challenges.

—

Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”

“Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:

“Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.
”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”
“Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”

★ About Our Guest

Joel Carini is a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at Saint Louis University. He holds an MDiv from Westminster Theological Seminary and an MA from the University of Chicago. He publishes regularly at his Substack and YouTube at The Natural Theologian.

Joel’s previous episode on New Kinship is: #29 - Weigh and Consider the World: Joel Carini on Nature, Truth, and Side B

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #71 – Can Desire Be Redeemed? Joel Carini on Sin, Psychology, and the Reformed Imagination

(00:46) Becoming a straight ally and public thinker

(08:20) The tone of the Christian conversation at Wheaton

(16:09) Why might someone take on “Side Y”?

(26:27) Are some desires categorically sinful? Could Jesus have even possibly sinned?

(37:39) Theology (and psychology) from nature? vs. a “Biblicist” approach. Plus Harry Potter + Voldemort.

(55:39) “Original sin” as a disease?

(01:06:42) Advice for engaging Side Y perspectives

(01:13:49) Vision for the future of the “Side B project”

—

★ Links and References

Video: Tim Keller and Kevin DeYoung on the PCA’s Report on Human Sexuality (2021): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWQPFvtzck
Joel’s interview episode with Colton Beach: The Christian Life: A Walk in the Park? A Conversation with a Gay Christian
A Quiet Mind to Suffer With by John Andrew Bryant (2023).
Anna Carini’s podcast episode of Consult the Counselor, on OCD: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (July 1, 2025)

Some names dropped, for your easier internet searching :) of course: Ulrich Zwingli was a reformer of the Protestant Reformation; Philip Ryken is president of Wheaton College; Harry Potter and Voldemort is a fantasy book that…should not be hard to find.

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support: Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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David, Lakshmi, and Erin dig into the intersection of wealth, faith, and community, particularly from the standpoint of middle-class Christians. Sparked by Lakshmi’s seminary research on Christian engagement with wealth accumulation in a neoliberal capitalist system, we explored theological and practical approaches to wealth:

What does it mean to have or accumulate wealth? What are the impacts of capitalism? the role of intentional Christian communities? and the balance between personal finances and larger systemic (in)justice? Can we create alternative economic systems grounded in Christian values of mutuality and relationship?

Check out Lakshmi’s work on communities at her Substack Dwelling Place!

★ Resources/Links/References:

Wealth as Peril and Obligation by Sandra Eli Wheeler
The Principle of Maximums by Roger L. Stichter
True Riches by John Cortines and Gregory Baumer
Beyond Charity by John Perkins
The Life You Can Save by Peter Singer
Practicing the King’s Economy by Michael Rhodes, Robby Holt, and Brian Fikkert
The Unjust Steward: Wealth, Poverty, and the Church Today by Escobar, Miguel
When God Made You by Matthew Paul Turner (illustrated by David Catrow)

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction and Guest Introductions

(01:37) Lakshmi’s Journey and Thoughts on Wealth

(03:33) Erin’s Perspective on Wealth and Justice

(05:10) Who Is Wealthy?

(09:45) New Challenges in Neoliberal Capitalism

(12:32) Community and Economic Systems

(23:49) Wealth as Peril and Obligation according to the New Testament

(27:32) Possessions, Wealth and Practical Faithfulness

(33:53) Joy beyond Guilt

(35:47) Approaches to Faith and Wealth

(40:16) Personality, Character, and Wealth

(48:44) Challenging Assumptions About Wealth and Virtue

(49:52) Economic Justice and Personal Responsibility

(50:59) Middle Class Mindset and Community Investment

(52:38) Navigating Power Dynamics in Personal Relationships

(53:36) The Role of Reciprocity in Building Community

(54:56) Class Perception and Social Mobility

(01:03:44) Intentional Christian Communities and Wealth

(01:05:45) Effective Altruism vs. Relational Giving

(01:07:19) Is Guilt Good for Generosity?

(01:09:35) The Importance of Relocation and Local Impact

(01:17:53) Final Reflections on Wealth and Responsibility—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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“ In our society is a big assumption that what it means to be truly, fully human is to not need other people… So you face a choice: is it fundamentally a bad thing to be a person? Or, is our account of a person as ‘someone who’s independent and autonomous’ fundamentally untrue? And [if so] we have to make room for our genuine neediness in our account of what it means to be human and what we owe to each other.”

Author Leah Libresco Sargeant joined New Kinship to talk about building community, relationships, and need. We discussed practical ways of building Christian community from her second book, Building the Benedict Option: A Guide to Gathering Two or Three Together in His Name. And we dived into her just-released third book, The Dignity of Dependence: A Feminist Manifesto, about an anthropology of need, justice, and care.

Vulnerability, it turns out, isn’t just for women/children/elders/the weak. It’s for all of us.

★ About Our Guest

Leah Libresco Sargeant is the author of The Dignity of Dependence (as well as Arriving at Amen and Building the Benedict Option). She runs the Substack Other Feminisms, which focuses on how to advocate for women as women in a world that makes an idol of autonomy. She lives in Maryland and works in family policy in D.C.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #70 - Who’s Afraid of Dependence? with Leah Libresco Sargeant

(05:09) Overview: Building the Benedict Option - generating community

(16:28) Catholic resources for building neighborhood community

(26:50) What we give up, for community

(30:08) Overview: The Dignity of Dependence

(33:27) “Personalism” and recommended sources

(36:12) Equality of men and women ≠ interchangeability

(40:47) Does dependence rely on hierarchy relationships?

(43:19) How we measure labor with market logic (and shouldn’t)

(49:44) Women’s “porous” experience of the world, and our theology of the church as feminine

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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“Paul [in 1st Corinthians] really does seem to think that what I do with my body, Christ has done with his body. Like, when I use my body to abuse other people, I have taken Christ's body and used it to abuse people, which for a Christian is the maximum sacrilege that you could do. But when I do something loving or caring or giving… I have taken Jesus' body and blessed others with it.”

So.

You heard part 1. (If not, it’s here: #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage, with Tyler Parker (Part 1))

Now you’re back for part 2. We’ve got a lot more for you:

Join us for the tour through Numbers, Deuteronomy, the Gospels, Romans, and 1st Corinthians… We touch on themes of idolatry, adultery, how Jesus was super single, and what this means for… well, anyone with a body: single or married, straight or sexual minorities, broken and definitely beautiful.

Please listen and then send your comments, questions, disagreements, and general angst. Links below. We’d love to hear from you!

(For those of us less attuned to sarcasm: If you email the gmail address Tyler named at the end of this episode, the poor guy on the other end of that email will not know what you’re talking about. 😆 Please just contact TJ, or any of us, at the email and Substack links below!)

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #69 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 2)

(00:15) A quick summary of Part 1

(02:43) "Tselem"=little statues, images of God

(07:29) Paul on conjugal rights: How consent images God (and coercion does not)

(16:07) Deuteronomy: "For the sake of the world who is watching..."

(27:48) Idolatry: "I don't want you to settle for less(er gods)"

(34:06) Numbers: the tie between idolatry and adultery

(39:22) Paul in Romans 1: When we worship a creature instead

(52:33) So...what does this mean for Side B? How Jesus was single

(01:04:52) "Sex is not the only way I can use my body to demonstrate God in the world."

(01:11:38) "We're gonna fuse bodies..."

(01:14:28) Marriage as a metaphor for God, and its limits

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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What is marriage actually for? What is sex for?

The way we answer these questions reveal the stories we tell ourselves and each other. So then: what is the story we see unfolding in the Bible? And what would it look like for the Christian story to be our primary narrative?

In this episode, Tyler Parker takes us through the first part of the Biblical story. God’s kingdom on earth, how human marriage plays a role, what makes marriage a unique relationship, good stuff. And then we touch on the Christian story’s implications for same-sex marriage, serial monogamy, hookup relationships, and other expressions of sexuality.

And then we realized this was a big topic and saved a few questions to Part 2. Stay tuned for that!

Part 2 can be found here: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/69-the-christian-story-of-sex-and

Finally: We note the need for a Catholic voice to join this conversation, so—if you have a recommendation, please get in touch!

—

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 1)

(03:58) Why we start with narrative

(08:08) The Bible's creation myth: a God who makes order from chaos

(12:56) The dimorphic expression of God's image

(20:14) God rested: He made a home for himself, with humans

(26:00) "Ezer": a helper who does what you cannot

(30:16) "Kenegdo": marriage isn't just union, it's REunion.

(41:47) A symbol of fruitfulness--but what is a symbol? We note the need for a Catholic voice.

(54:18) What about the church and other communities? Does marriage "colonize" all the good things about human unions?

(01:03:11) "Porneia": what is NOT good, in God's narrative

(01:17:23) In which we decide we'll need a Part 2

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Co-Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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My recent friend Faith, who I met at an OTL Dialogue, has a gift for questions. So when Faith expressed interest in asking me about my community living situation, I was grateful she was up for recording our call, because she’s a careful thinker who understands systems from a deep rootedness in the organic nature of community and personhood. And boy, did she make me think and reflect.

Leaving our conversation, I’m left with questions for how to make my community house wiser, more developed, more mature. I’m left wondering how we can develop rituals of modifying our covenant, rituals of remembering our values and vision, on staying attuned to different nodes of awareness on the health of the community, and on encouraging multiple nodes of community ownership.

(00:00) Introductions

(03:38) Foundations of Intentional Community

(08:58) Values and Practices in Community Living

(16:17) Conflict Resolution and Community Dynamics

(28:11) Navigating Household Dynamics, Clutter, and Values

(29:50) Leadership Challenges for Enneagram 2s

(32:25) Balancing External and Internal Responsibilities

(40:45) The Process of Housemate Transitions

(44:15) Future Aspirations and Neighborhood Integration

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In this bonus review episode of Revoice 2025, TJ and David (and a couple friends at the end) discuss their experiences at the recent Revoice 2025 conference held in Seattle, Washington. What we forgot to mention in the recording was how incredible the “Build” theme was this year, as the different main speakers walked us through Nehemiah and Art really hit it out of the ballpark with his exhortations for the Side B community (and its friends and allies) to get to work seeking the Kingdom of God. It was powerful.

Some highlights mentioned included the various speakers (including Mwendia, Wesley Hill, Anna Carter from Eden Invitation, and Julia Sadusky), the worship team led by Wes, and spaces to make meaningful connections. We offer a couple tips to attendees for making future conferences enjoyable (like affinity groups, communal living arrangements).

Check out Revoice for next year! https://www.revoice.org/

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In LGBT and Christian communities, Ron Koustas has seen a lot. When his longtime partner was diagnosed with AIDS—in the early years before life-saving medications were available—Ron became his partner’s caregiver. As he revisited the Christian faith of his youth, Ron eventually joined and then served in ministries to gay folks in New York City. He’s seen ex-gay churches try to help people “become straight.” He’s seen churches love gay people well, and also poorly. He’s been part of several close “chosen families.” He’s been asked hurtful questions, been defended by church people, been asked to defend himself, and has continued to serve and support fellow believers through the process.

We are fascinated by Ron’s story over the years and encouraged by his continued, joyful pursuit of Jesus and his church.

★ About Our Guest

Ron Koustas, now retired from federal service, has spent over 30 years leading AIDS outreach efforts in NYC and Northern NJ churches, including playing a pivotal role in Hope For New York’s AIDS Ministry. His ministry has been featured in Christianity Today’s Leadership Journal and Michael Slaughter’s book unLearning Church. More recently, prompted by pastoral encouragement, Ron has embraced the Side B community and now actively engages with younger members through his NJ Revoice Chapter. He continues to serve as a breakout speaker at the annual Revoice Conference.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #67 - Ron Koustas's Testimony of Staying: Caregiving and Church Ministry in the AIDS Crisis

(01:42) Ron's story: supporting his gay partner with AIDS

(21:07) "Ex-gay" church ministries: "Are you gay or a Christian?"

(30:42) Moving out of ex-gay spaces and into Revoice circles

(45:15) What is good (still?) about loving your partner?

(52:28) Joining a new church: "If you're gay, what are you doing here?"

(57:21) Advice for feeling settled, chosen families

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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In Japan, where Christians are a minority and “being gay” carries some different cultural meanings than it does in the US, Aogu Fujihashi offers to LGBTQ people the support and discipleship he would have wanted to receive as a teenager. This week, David and TJ talk with Aogu about Japanese Christianity, his journey toward a Side B understanding of faith and sexuality, his spiritual influences (from Augustine to Calvin to Piper and more), and his LGBTQ+ ministry in Tokyo.

Also: Japanese bathhouse culture! We learned some things.

We appreciate Aogu’s deep care for the church in Japan, and his desire for open dialogue rather than hostility—wherever you find yourself on these questions, we hope you’ll join us in listening and learning from each other.

—

★ About Our Guest

Aogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #66 - Wrestling with Faith and Sexuality in Japan: Aogu Fujihashi’s Journey | 信仰とセクシュアリティの葛藤：藤橋仰さんの証し

(00:26) "When I realized I was gay..."

(12:39) A spiritual lineage of God's heart for the world

(21:35) Don't charismatic churches do conversion therapy and such?

(30:46) Why not Side A: The Samwise Gamgee approach

(38:07) What's the difference between repression and self-control?

(45:40) Friendships: The classic trope of Japanese manga

(51:52) LGBTQ ministry: being even more "out"

(01:03:08) Bathhouse culture in Japan

(01:13:50) Looking ahead: Hope for better dialogue in Japan

(01:17:29) A post-episode conversation: On literal readings and compelling theology

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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After hearing about TJ’s previous experience at OTL (Oriented to Love), I, David, felt prompted to fly to the city of brotherly love and experience this dialogue retreat himself. God did more than I could have asked for or imagined in this sacred weekend in conversation with other Christians from diverse perspectives and backgrounds, with purposeful differences across the Side A (progressive views on faith and sexuality) and Side B (historic views on faith and sexuality) divide.

I was joined by two other friends from the retreat, Andrew Gordon and Cathie McCoy, who also share Side B perspectives, to share about their meaningful experiences connecting on deep topics of the heart. In order to bring out the most organic of connections, we were led through an intentionally structured 44 hours together in spiritual exercises and vulnerable dialogue.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction to the Bonus Episode

(02:35) Meet the Guests: Andrew and Cathie

(07:27) Preparing for the Dialogue

(11:56) Anticipations and Expectations

(17:09) The OTL Experience: Setting the Stage

(21:54) Engaging in Dialogue Across Differences in Theology

(32:31) The Power of Authentic Connections in Moments of Vulnerability

(35:12) Navigating Theological and Ethical Differences in Safe and Humble Spaces

(39:30) The Role of the Holy Spirit in Personal Growth

(44:52) Balancing Individuality and Community

(01:00:13) The Importance of Vulnerability and Being Seen

(01:06:54) Final Thoughts and Recommendations

—

★ Links and References

“Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/

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In conversations around Christian faith and sexuality, especially in the U.S., it can feel like everyone’s expected to pick a “side.” But it’s not the same—or at least the same lines being drawn—in other places.

In this episode, we talked with Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya about their experiences in the Japanese Christian context, where the conversation around LGBTQ+ identity looks a bit different. We talk about how a culture of conformity impacts same-sex marriage ideas in Japan, how American evangelicals influence Japanese churches, and the quiet struggles many queer Christians face in some church communities. Join us for a thoughtful look at what gets lost—or gained—in translation, on faith and sexuality, in Japan.

—

About Our Guests

Kazusa Okaya is a straight Japanese Christian, translator, and PhD student at Durham University. He translated Washed and Waiting and Andrew Marin’s Love Is an Orientation into Japanese and contributed to Two Views on Homosexuality. Kaz formerly served as an IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) staff worker in Japan (KGK - “Kirisutosha Gakusei Kai", which means “Fellowship of Christian Students”). As a former staff pastor in student ministry, Kaz has been a thoughtful voice in ongoing conversations about faith and sexuality in the Japanese church. He participates in conversations on faith and sexuality at Dream Party dialogue.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #65 - Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya, Japanese Christians on Faith and Sexuality Convos

(06:09) When the Japanese Christian bookstore has zero books on LGBTQ

(17:31) Challenges of translating: "Christians who wish to be faithful..."

(31:20) "Japan is the only G7 country that hasn't legalized same-sex marriage"

(41:26) What is an "evangelical" in Japan?

(44:21) How do Christians talk about being gay in Japan? Borrow US categories?

(57:17) Japanese Christians "coming out", but rarely to a pastor

(01:00:43) Kinship beyond marriage in Japan... is mainly outside the church (gang brotherhoods?)

(01:08:16) We hope to keep dialogue open between progressive/conservative Christians

(01:13:12) Who do we choose to dialogue with? When does it cause harm?

—

★ Links and References

The Bible study for LGBTQ+ and same-sex attracted people that Aogu facilitates meets every other week in Shinjuku, Tokyo. Follow on Instagram: @shinjukubaisuta

Aogu Fujihashi has an occasionally updated blog at

https://aogufujihashi.wordpress.com/

Kaz has an article in Christianity Today: Japanese Evangelicalism Was Once Nationalistic (May 2025)

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

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Grace Thomas came out as a transgender woman at age 61—after decades of life as a pastor, husband, and father. That alone makes her story remarkable. But what’s even more compelling is the way she tells it: with gentleness, honesty, and deep care for the people in her life.

In this episode, Grace shares how her transition has shaped her relationships with her children and her wife, what it’s been like to remain in conversation with those who don’t fully understand or affirm her, and how her reading of Scripture has changed her approach to parenting, church, and more.

We’re particularly grateful for the gracious and curious way that Grace approaches all her conversations, and we hope you’ll join us to learn from her, no matter where you land on these topics.

About Our Guest

Grace is a committed follower of Jesus with a call to ministry. She is also a trans woman out publicly for 3 ½ years. During her 32 years as a pastor in a conservative denomination, her two youngest children came out as gay. Deeply committed to loving her sons and following Jesus, she began a long journey of rethinking faith and what it means to fully love others, especially her children and herself. Grace supports parents of LGBTQ kids through various support groups as well as pursuing community and inclusion for LGBTQ individuals in the church. You can contact her at graceisforyoualways@gmail.com

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #64 - Grace Thomas: From Pentecostal Pastor to Trans Woman

(03:39) I only knew to say: "Being gay is sin."

(10:40) Coming out to myself as transgender: "I don't know" is cruel

(25:15) The wrong wedding clothes: How does it hang on the law of love?

(33:29) "Parents know if they're giving a child a fish or a rock"

(47:02) Holiness: I don't see God as "untouchable"

(58:26) A trans experience: Psalm 139

(01:10:58) A trans experience: The car parts store

(01:15:25) A trans experience: Passing as female

(01:18:38) No one can stop me from loving my neighbor

—

★ Links and References

Check out a few other episodes we mentioned in this conversation:

32 - TJ Participated in an “Oriented to Love” Dialogue--Here Are His Thoughts
33 - Asking Better Questions with Oriented to Love’s Kristyn Komarnicki
11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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In this bonus episode, we chat with Mike Vick about the American Solidarity Party. We explore the party's foundations, which are influenced by Christian democratic values and Catholic Social Teaching. Their thorough set of ethical platforms grounded in human dignity, the common good, and solidarity (in a way that neither Democratic nor Republican parties are offering!!) would really be a breath of fresh air in American politics!

Mike Vick is the founder of the Liberation Caucus in the American Solidarity Party. The episode delves into Mike's personal and political journey, his stance on social and economic issues, and the challenges within the party, particularly concerning LGBT topics. Come join us as we think about the role of civic pluralism in US politics.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Welcome Mike Vick from the American Solidarity Party

(01:50) LGBTQ Topics and Side B Perspective

(04:10) Mike Vick's Background and Political Journey

(15:51) Solidarity Party's Principles and Inclusivity

(19:15) Distributism and Economic Democracy

(26:33) Pro-Life Stance and Social Issues

(28:32) Platforms and Opinions on LGBTQ+ Issues

(32:29) Three Camps within the Party

(36:07) Party Challenges and Tensions

(42:43) Liberation Caucus and Party Dynamics

(49:23) Political Theology and Civic Pluralism

(52:14) How to Get Active

—

★ Links and References in This Episode

ASP Liberation Caucus: www.liberationasp.org
Mike’s Linktree: linktr.ee/votevickusa
American Solidarity Party
www.solidarity-party.org/platform
linktr.ee/liberationasp
The Servile State by Hilaire Belloc (1912)
Toward a Truly Free Market: A Distributist Perspective on the Role of Government,

Taxes, Health Care, Deficits, and More by John Medaille (2011)

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

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What if friendship—not romance, not marriage—were the central relationship in your life?

That’s the question Rhaina Cohen asks in her book The Other Significant Others. And wow, do we love this book. David, TJ, and Elena sat down with Rhaina to talk about what it would mean to build a life around deep, committed friendship—and why our current relationship hierarchy (romantic > everything else) might be due for a rethink.

Once you start centering friendship, it starts disrupting many other assumptions. We talked about: what it looks like to live near your friends, how parenting could look different, what happens when friends make commitments, when other people don’t recognize those commitments, and whether secular folks should borrow a few ideas from monks.

Join us and—if you haven’t already—go read the book!

About Our Guest

Rhaina Cohen is an award-winning editor for the NPR documentary podcast Embedded and the author of the national bestseller, The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life with Friendship at the Center, which Trevor Noah described as "my new Bible." Her writing on social connection has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post and has been supported by the National Endowment for the Humanities. Rhaina's recent TED talk on the untapped potential of friendship has been viewed more than half a million times. She lives in Washington, D.C. with her husband and close friends.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Why we were excited to interview Rhaina Cohen

(04:17) Rhaina Cohen: "Reimagining life with friendship at the center"

(10:27) Deconstruction and reconstruction: You can't be what you can't see

(19:10) Live Near Friends

(24:52) Conflicts in friendships: needing language, recognition

(28:29) Parenting doesn't have to be exhausting

(37:00) Can we TEACH better relationship skills?

(41:33) Covenant relationships: "You can be committed to someone and not be sleeping with them"

(47:04) Would secular people benefit from monastic models?

(55:03) What's next? Monogamy, marriage vows, and more

(01:01:52) Recommended readings from Rhaina and more

—

★ Links and References

“A Grand Experiment in Parenthood and Friendship” by Rhaina Cohen (The Atlantic, 2025)

Live Near Friends: livenearfriends.com

Super Nuclear: supernuclear.substack.com

Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends by Marissa Franco (2022)

Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections by Anna Goldfarb (2024):

Stay True, a memoir by Hua Hsu (2023)

First Love: Essays on Friendship by Lily Dancyger (2024)

Invisibilia (NPR) series on friendship, especially: Nun of Us Are Friends, Esther Perel gives Therapy with Friends

Follow Rhaina: Related on Substack, @RhainaCohen on Instagram

TJ’s Story (New Kinship episode #6): “TJ's Story | Dysphoria, Queerness, Contextualization, and Conviction”

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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I mean, I don’t know you. Maybe you didn’t grow up in an evangelical Christian subculture. But if you did, there’s a high likelihood that the ideas you absorbed about how men and women behave—and what it even means to be masculine or feminine—were influenced heavily by C.S Lewis’ famous Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.

On this fascinating episode, Kathryn Wagner (returning guest and medieval lit scholar) and Robin Harris (writer and incoming seminarian) stopped by to evaluate Lewis’ takes on gender against both more modern feminist sensibilities and much older writers and theologians in the Christian tradition.

You should absolutely join us.

★ About Our Guests:

Robin Harris is a North Carolina based freelance writer and editor who specializes in Bible curriculum. She is on the board of the Davenant Institute. Her writing has appeared in Mere Orthodoxy, Ad Fontes, and the Theopolis Institute. As of Fall 2025, she will be a student at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (MATS, 2027). She writes at robinjeanharris.substack.com/ and can be reached at robinjeanharris [at] gmail.com.

Kathryn Wagner is the Director of Academic Programming at the Center for Christianity and Scholarship at Duke University. She studies the literature and religious culture of the late Middle Ages and teaches courses that aim to form students in virtue through the practices of the liberal arts. She can be reached at kathryn [at] mogkwagner.net.—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #62 - Evangelicals' Gender Ideas Came from C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy - with Robin Harris and Kathryn Wagner

(04:20) Evangelicals who leaned on C.S. Lewis and the Space Trilogy

(13:12) The Space Trilogy tackles gender

(24:46) But can archetypes live in the real world?

(38:44) God does not have a body: Metaphors in Christian scripture

(53:28) Confusion and contraception are tied together

(01:00:58) God as our mother?

(01:06:39) Lewis's thinking evolution: widening the gender box

(01:24:44) Replacing theoretical masculinity and femininity with real friendships

(01:33:24) What would Lewis think of today's transgender conversation?

(01:40:31) In the Christian tradition on gender, Lewis is the test run—

★ Links and References

These well-read people dropped a lot of names and references. For your ease of Google searching, here are the ones we caught:

John and Stasi Eldridge (books: Wild at Heart, Captivating), Jordan Peterson Jungian thinking, Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Elisabeth Elliot (book: Let Me Be a Woman), complementarianism and egalitarianism, Michael Ward (book: Planet Narnia), apophatic theology, platonic forms and Aristotle’s hylomorphism, Thomistic/ Thomas=Thomas Aquinas, Pope John Paul II (book/writings: Theology of the Body), Anselm of Canterbury talked about God as our mother, Julian of Norwich said a similar thing; Joy Davidman, Dorothy Sayers, philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe, Sister Penelope Lawson, Ruth Pitter, C. S. Lewis (books: The Four Loves, A Grief Observed), Kevin Vanhoozer (theologian).—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship —

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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What if celibate people are really just repressing their sexuality? Or the Bible writers banned same-sex sex because they couldn’t imagine a modern, egalitarian, consensual marriage?

Join TJ (social science researcher) and David (communitarian vibes) as they name 7 “myths” of sex, celibacy, marriage, and love, and talk about LGBTQ flourishing for Christians.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #61 - 7 Myths of Side A: On Sex, Love, and Marriage for LGBTQ Christians

(03:19) Myth #1: Celibacy equals sexual repression or misery

(10:29) Myth #2: The Bible writers only banned gay sex because they couldn't imagine consensual, egalitarian same-sex monogamous relationships

(15:32) Myth #3: Marriage is the only committed covenant relationship

(23:17) Myth #4: Colonialist European Christianity is the source of homophobia around the globe

(31:06) Myth #5: A sexual ethic is just a personal decision

(36:33) Myth #6: Love trumps everything

(42:20) Myth #7: Sexual ethics are minor differences among Christians

(53:25) Summing up

—

★ Links and References

Bill White in the New York Times: “How My Dad Reconciled His God and His Gay Son.” https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/05/opinion/coming-out-evangelical-pastor.html?unlocked_article_code=1.u04.SZiC.MDfFGLX6HWTO∣=url-share
Wendell Berry, **“Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community,” (2018). https://www.counterpointpress.com/books/sex-economy-freedom-community/
John Pike, “Were loving, faithful same-sex relations known in antiquity?” https://www.psephizo.com/sexuality-2/were-loving-faithful-same-sex-relations-known-in-antiquity/
Preston Sprinkle, “Did Consensual Same-Sex Sexual Relationships Exist in Biblical Times? A Response to Matthew Vines,” (August 30, 2022). https://www.centerforfaith.com/blog/did-consensual-same-sex-sexual-relationships-exist-in-biblical-times-a-response-to-matthew

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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This episode contains a brief mention of violent murder.

Teresa is a queer woman who grew up in the Philippines and has worked in the U.S. in campus ministry for several years. She brings thoughtful reflections on identities, faith relationships, and family interactions across multiple cultures. We’re honored to be her friend!

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #60 - Teresa - On Filipina, Side B

(03:31) Understanding faith and sexuality as a 12-year-old Filipina

(11:53) Filipino and US shared queer terminology

(14:46) Catholics and Protestants: a wide schism

(19:41) My parents love me dearly, but identity is hard

(27:08) What's influencing me lately: mystics, monastics, and eunuchs

(31:19) Side B: Reveling in God's love for me

(39:38) Finding a queer staff community in campus ministry

(45:38) Gifts of being queer: art, care, hospitality

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Church unity is hard, folks.

The United Methodist Church (UMC) had a momentous global meeting last year (2024), with the major outcome of allowing—or at least not preventing or taking action against—performing same-sex marriages and ordaining non-celibate gay leaders in the church. Methodists around the world have WIDE disagreements on how they even interpret this outcome, much less what they should do about it.

This conflict is as much about church unity and governance as it is about LGBTQ rights and people—but of course they’re wrapped up together. You might recognize yourself and your own Christian denomination in the UMC’s 40+ years of conversations on these topics. Church unity is hard, folks.

Last year, we talked to two members of the UMC to hear their perspectives: a U.S.-based seminary student pursuing ordination with the UMC, and a bishop in UMC leadership in Liberia.

This episode is Part 2 of 2. Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/58-the-united-methodist-church-lifts

We had some technical difficulties with the video on this episode, so thanks for bearing with us.

It’s so important to take the time to listen to each other as we examine our own convictions. Please join us in listening with care for our Christian siblings around the world.

About Our Guest:

The Reverend Dr. Jerry P. Kulah is an elder in the Liberia Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church (UMC). For more 28 years, Dr. Kulah has served the UMC in Liberia as an evangelist, educator, pastor, and administrator. Dr. Kulah holds a Doctor of Ministry degree in Leadership from Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky, USA (class of 2010); he is currently a PhD candidate in Theology at the Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge Theological Federation, UK. Dr. Kulah’s vision is to see Africa transformed by Christ-centered Africans of quality, competence, and character.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #59 - The United Methodist Church Lifted Its Ban on Gay Marriage: On Fragmentation and Autonomy with Reverend Jerry Kulah (Part 2 of 2 on the UMC)

(01:35) Rev. Kulah: Liberian, Ordained UMC Minister

(06:46) "A silent invasion of the church in Africa"

(11:52) Uniting, leaving, waiting: African churches in confusion

(24:29) Regionalization fragments the church under a "big tent"

(33:07) What will happen in the African UMC? (predictions from summer 2024)

(45:12) Liberia's laws on marriage and sexuality

(47:39) Same-sex temptation is not the same as "being homosexual"

(54:37) We are brothers and sisters: "Don't compel me to live in your context"

—

★ Links and References

A recent letter from the African Bishops: www.unitedmethodistbishops.org/newsdetail/africa-umc-bishops-statement-2024-18627021

Comments from the Africa Initiative: peopleneedjesus.net/2024/05/24/africa-initiative-united-methodism-in-africa-is-not-for-sale-to-western-cultural-christianity/

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Last year, we talked to two members of the UMC to hear their perspectives: a U.S.-based seminary student pursuing ordination with the UMC, and a bishop in UMC leadership in Liberia.

This is Part 1 of 2. Part 2 can be found here: [link available Feb 19, 2025]

It’s so important to take the time to listen to each other as we examine our own convictions. Please join us in listening with care for our Christian siblings around the world.

About Our Guest:

Joe Meinholz is currently a seminarian at Duke Divinity School pursuing ordination in the United Methodist Church. He grew up farming in Ho Chunk land (Southern Wisconsin) and is an aspiring community organizer, pastor, water protector, and lover of Jesus.

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★ Timestamps

00:00 #58 - The United Methodist Church Lifts Ban on Gay Marriage: Polity and Progress with Joe Meinholz (Part 1 of 2 on the UMC)

01:32 Polity: How the United Methodist Church denomination governs itself

08:38 1972-today: UMC's history of LGBT marriage and theology

12:51 2019-today: Making paths for "disaffiliation"

20:32 Rulings from the 2024 UMC general conference: A more neutral position?

27:17 The Global Methodist Church": A new denomination of disaffiliated churches

29:00 Moving toward regional meetings of equals

36:19 The fruit of our united front: Must we align on social principles?

40:51 If you were Methodist, would YOU have disaffiliated?

51:19 What does "church unity" mean? Can we disagree on sexuality?

57:17 Wrapping up, looking forward

—

★ Links and References

The Other Significant Others by Rhaina Cohen

A recent letter from the African Bishops: www.unitedmethodistbishops.org/newsdetail/africa-umc-bishops-statement-2024-18627021

Comments from the Africa Initiative: peopleneedjesus.net/2024/05/24/africa-initiative-united-methodism-in-africa-is-not-for-sale-to-western-cultural-christianity/

One author on “ubuntu”: https://um-insight.net/general-conference/a-way-forward/ubuntu/

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Tyler Parker weighs in on topics like bisexuality, Christianity at Harvard, liberation theology, and celibate partnerships. A valuable conversation… but that goes without saying. Join us!

About Our Guest:

Tyler Parker is a campus minister at Harvard College, where he studied government and filmmaking during his undergraduate studies. He is a follower of Jesus, is bisexual, and is filled with a deep passion for LGBTQ+ people to experience the lives of flourishing that are borne out of radical encounters with the love of Christ. He also helps lead a growing Revoice chapter in the Greater Boston area and serves on staff at Aletheia Church, Cambridge. He can be reached on Instagram: @tyler.parker.1671

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #57 - Theology of Sex and Ministry at Harvard, with Tyler Parker

(01:36) Doing Christian campus ministry at Harvard

(10:20) Coming out (to myself and others) as bisexual

(18:37) But what is "bisexuality"?

(20:41) Why not side A? How did the early church read these passages?

(33:15) Church silence around sexuality

(38:55) Family conversations and celibacy

(44:36) Ok, but: Celibate partnerships?

(01:09:46) Can you "fall in love" without it turning to sexual attraction?

(01:18:50) Having calm conversations about sexuality at Harvard

(01:27:53) Future of the Side B movement?

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Note: This episode includes a brief mention of suicide and community response to it.

As the child of a Korean pastor and raised in North America, Stephen Shim has been wrestling with coming to terms with being, in his words, “a minority of a minority of a minority”—a gay, Korean Christian. Stephen is a leader in the “B-sian” group—a community of Asian, Side B Christians that developed from the Revoice annual conference.

Now in his late 30s, Stephen has continued to walk down the path of his life with a bit more peace and a bit less wrestling, while trying to love God and love others as best as he can. You can contact him on X/Twitter or Bluesky: skshim.bsky.social.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #56 - Stephen Shim's B-sian Story: Being Gay, Korean-Canadian, and a Side B Christian

(02:11) Growing up: Dad was a pastor, Mom was often sick

(20:47) "Are you gay? Or are you Asian?"

(42:28) Talking to my father about sexuality

(53:28) Why side B? Reading scripture literally, familial obligations

(56:51) Finding Side B through Revoice: "I do not like new things"

(01:04:54) The B-sian Origin Story

(01:20:59) "Why does this guy keep talking about race?"

(01:26:25) How are multicultural spaces supportive, or not?

(01:32:45) How can people connect with you?

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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If you’ve never heard of Life on Side B—the podcast that in many ways inspired this one—today is your day! We interviewed Josh and Ashley on their ending season, where Side B could evolve, and how LoSB podcast was almost named “Unicorns for Jesus”.

And THEN…head on over to Life on Side B to listen to David and TJ’s reflections on interviewing people with diverse views and where Side B conversations are evolving. Listen to the other half of this episode here: www.lifeonsideb.com/episodes/episode/1d868a02/s6e1-or-tj-and-david-on-new-kinship-and-the-future-of-side-b-crossover-episode

Comments on how LoSB impacted you? Send your audio message to LoSB here: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/finalseason

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand an incredible amount. If you’re new to the conversation, I don’t know what to tell you. Welcome! And you might want to check out:

New Kinship’s episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠
Life on Side B’s explainer article: The Four Sides

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★ About Our Guests

Josh was born and raised in South Florida. He is the creator and producer of Life on Side B, a podcast exploring the joys, beauty, and challenges of living the traditional sexual ethic as LGBT+/same sex attracted Christians. He is a spiritual director and inclusion consultant with a private practice called Wholly Ourselves, and he is a pastor at his local church, Providencia WPB. He holds a DMin from Kairos University and a MA in Biblical Literature from Nyack College. In his spare time, you can normally find Josh doing one of three things: hosting friends at his home with his family, watching Golden Girls, or working out.

Ashley is a queer woman in a mixed-orientation marriage of over a decade and has a three-year-old son. She and her husband met on the mission field in Latin America with Youth With A Mission and currently reside in the southern United States.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) New Kinship #55 - Life on Side B's Final Season, with Josh and Ashley

(01:48) At the time, there weren't any Side B podcasts

(05:52) Episodes that changed us: Telling our vulnerable stories

(08:56) Why is Life on Side B ending?

(13:16) What Josh and Ashley learned in 5 seasons

(19:57) Where should the Side B movement go?

(26:45) Josh's upcoming podcast(s) and work!

(30:53) Ashley's work with Your Other...Family?

(34:01) Send a message to LoSB folks!

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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TJ and David were interviewed on Joel Carini’s podcast, the Natural Theologian, a previous guest of ours, to discuss the role of marriage, family, other significant others, covenants, Side B perspectives on kinship, and more!

Check it out!

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Jason Thompson leads Portland Fellowship, a Christian organization pursuing freedom from “homosexuality and transgender confusion” through Christ. In our terms, Jason’s org is “Side X” and we are “Side B”. Jason himself has thought a bit about the various positions in the faith + sexuality debate, and he has his own description of four “sides”. Between these groupings are some seemingly wide gaps in how we, as Christians, think about sexual orientation, restoration, brokenness, and identities… tough stuff, but we are grateful for Jason’s willingness to talk about our differences as Christians.

About Our Guest: Jason Thompson experienced unwanted same sex desires in his youth, and discovered Portland Fellowship in 1989, where he received discipleship and loving support to find the freedom he was seeking. Jason now serves as executive director of Portland Fellowship; he holds a master's degree in counseling from Western Seminary and is an ordained minister. Jason and his wife Amy live outside of Portland with their two sons.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out our episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

(00:43) About Jason and Portland Fellowship

(03:29) Clarifying Side B/X and Jason's chart

(17:24) Defining: male and female in the image of God

(20:45) Defining: sexual orientation, homosexuality

(32:50) Defining: "repentance from lust"

(34:06) Defining: gay and straight

(43:18) Juxtaposing Side X ("Rebuild") and Side B ("Resist") - change, role of marriage

(51:58) Change is possible--but what kind of change?

(01:08:39) We (all of us) don't police language

(01:11:54) "Should that person still hold a gay label when all that has changed in their life?"

(01:16:22) Wrapping up: Final thoughts

—

★ Links and References

Jason’s 4 Views PDF: “Differing Views on Christian Doctrine, Identity and Homosexuality”

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Content warning: This episode includes discussions of suicidality.

Simon Kent Fung is the creator and host of Dear Alana, a limited series podcast telling the story of Alana Chen, a devoutly Catholic young woman who wrestled with same-sex attraction alongside her faith before taking her own life in 2019. Simon found that Alana's journey with the Catholic faith and conversion therapies paralleled his own story in notable ways. On this episode, we talked with Simon about his experience of conversion therapy or “reparative therapy” for LGBTQ Christian people, the expectations and harms that accompany it, and what a healthy spiritual journey and community could be.

Learn more about the podcast Dear Alana at http://dearalana.com.

Learn more about Simon at http://simonkentfung.com.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #53 - Conversion Therapy's Legacy, with Simon Kent Fung from "Dear Alana”

(02:20) The story of Dear Alana

(13:28) Unpacking conversion/reparative therapy

(28:24) Therapy: what we expect, what good things we need?

(43:52) Leaving conversion therapy, identifying harms

(55:23) Thinking now about "sexual orientation" as a concept

(01:01:56) Finding a healthier spirituality through community

(01:11:00) What, to you, is a good sexual ethic these days?

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Our reasons for changing our name. Including: discussions of kinship, old and new commandments, belonging, mutual solidarity, and more.

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Pastor Shalom is a multi-national Nigerian in a mixed-orientation marriage now in pastoral ministry. She has a profound journey of faith, marriage, and understanding her sexual identity. We were moved by her story and the strength of her love for God and others, so we asked her to share it with you all. Whether you see yourself in her story or are listening to learn about someone whose journey is very different from your own—we hope it’s an encouragement to you, too!

★ About Our Guest

Pastor Shalom Liddick was born in Nigeria and spent some of her youth in Central America before moving to the United States. Her diverse background and rich cultural heritage have shaped her perspective on life and faith. She is most passionate about walking alongside others as they experience the sweetness found in Jesus. She considers herself a practicing theologian.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom

(02:15) Pastor Shalom's story

(16:46) God became my everything

(28:56) Who is my identifier?

(36:31) Revoice: Little gifts of love from God

(43:00) Conversations in the African diaspora: upholding (all?) Scripture

(48:36) Attraction and mixed-orientation marriage

(54:20) Not sexualizing relationships

(58:53) Advice for those considering marriage?

(01:01:36) What do you tell your kids?

(01:04:14) Remember whose we are: LGBT gifts to the church

(01:11:40) "We all have the same Father"

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P., gavinpopkenart.com ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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David Bennett has a lot to say about erotic relationships with God—but it’s probably not what you think! As a former atheistic gay activist now turned celibate gay theologian and follower of Jesus, David’s reflections on Christian sexuality and discipleship are both personal and deeply informed by Christian historical tradition. David sat down with TJ and David Frank to talk about a theology of desire, Christian thinkers from Augustine to Aquinas to today, Side B activism, and practical discipleship for Christians today. Join us!

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides” in our conversation: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

★ About Our Guest

Dr. David Bennett recently completed his doctorate (DPhil) in theology at Oxford University where he now works as a postdoctoral research fellow in the Theology and Religion Faculty. His thesis is in the process of being published, tentatively entitled, Queering the Queer: A Theological Ethics of Same-Sex Desire and Gay Celibacy in Contemporary Anglican Thought. He specializes in the relationship between the Trinity, Christian ethics, patristics, queer theology, discipleship and contemporary Anglican theology, especially the role of desire in knowing God. David also serves as a theologian in residence at Reality San Francisco and Church of the City, New York, and an Associate Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall. Find him on Instagram or X (@DavidACBennett) or on his website at dacbennett.com.

—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction(s)

(05:00) The heart desires, the will chooses, the mind justifies

(16:11) "You're just denying your sexuality" - defining “erotic”

(25:45) How many kinds of love are there?

(33:04) Eros and fear-of (or "Lutheran pietistic excess")

(44:25) We need more Side B activism

(56:58) What's going on with the Church of England?

(01:13:20) Beyond an “ethic”: pursuing personal integration

—

★ Links and References

Eros and Agape (1930, 1936) by Anders Nygren (Wikipedia)

Deus Caritas est (2005), Pope Benedict XVI (Wikipedia)

—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support…

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P. ★

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

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Announcement: Hey ya’ll! We have a new podcast name! Welcome to New Kinship, formerly known as Communion and Shalom. We felt it was time for a more specifically focused name, with the same goal of focusing on the ways we belong to each other as Christians, as brothers and sisters, in the complexities of sexuality, ethnicity, and living in community. Join us as we wade into those complexities with people we both agree and disagree with.

We’ll be updating our name across all our platforms in the next few weeks. Keep an eye out.<

For our fiftieth episode (!), we’re sharing a recording from a workshop we gave at Revoice 2024 this year (a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted/LGBT Side B Christians who are seeking to support and encourage gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians—as well as those who love them—so that all in the Church might be empowered to live in gospel unity while observing the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality).

Join us as we talk about two significant topics that we don’t hear discussed very much: kinship in lay, intentional Christian communities, and kinship in covenant brotherhoods and sisterhoods, celibate partnerships, and committed friendships. They’re historical, deeply Christian, radical, and somehow also totally normal—even if you’ve never heard of them till now.

Check it out on Substack or YouTube if you’d like to see the slides we shared!

—

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

Timestamps

(0:00) (Re)Discovering Kinship beyond Marriage

(2:46) Outline of Our Talk: The Path before Us

(3:47) Key Definitions and Ideas

(4:47) Covenants

(7:47) Why Now? Explaining Companionate Marriage

(13:13) David's Investment into Community Living

(15:53) TJ's Brotherhood Covenant

(20:06) What is (Covenant) Community?

(25:50) What's a Household?

(33:59) Covenant Siblinghood

(38:24) Types of Covenant Brotherhood

(40:25) David and Jonathan

(43:08) Ruth and Naomi

(44:34) Walatta Petros and Eheta Kristos: Sisterhood between 17th Century Ethiopian Nuns

(47:47) 20th Century Move to Celibacy

(51:11) Advice for church leaders

(52:29) Q&A

—

Links and References in This Episode

Bible Project on Covenants
Episode #19: A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner
Atlantic Article: “If the Nuclear Family Has Failed, What Comes Next?”
Check out the Nurturing Communities Network

—

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram or Substack! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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It’s hard to know how to approach a topic that is simultaneously so personal and so full of theological implications. We, David Frank and TJ Espinoza, open up about our developing thoughts on trans experiences as it relates to the complexities of gender as both a social construct and part of biblical theology. In light of this, how might Christians consider ideas around third genders? How should they address violence against trans individuals? Are chosen pronouns an opportunity to manifest neighborliness or courage? Listen in as we try to lay some foundations, as we begin to wade into these sensitive challenges.

Timestamps

(00:38) Today's snapshot: a preliminary-thoughts episode

(06:43) Defining Transgender

(08:00) Definitions and cultural uses of sex vs. gender

(21:41) Acknowledging intersex

(24:06) No violence is ever Christian

(25:49) Pronouns, but we didn't get into it

(26:43) Sex isn't a social construction, but gender is

(32:43) "Third gender" concepts in different cultures

(50:20) Questions we still have for trans people

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Transformation is a tricky word in Christian circles, particularly when we’re talking about sexuality. What does it mean to be “transformed”? For a gay man, does it mean “no longer gay”? And what does that mean??

We talked with Nate Oyloe and Luca Jo Groppoli from Agape First Ministries, an organization dedicated to discipling and seeking God’s transformation. In our framing on this podcast, we would call their organization “side X”—that is, generally pursuing and seeing the good in people becoming “ex gay.” Since this isn’t a position we (David and TJ) hold, we were eager to have a conversation about our similarities and differences: personal stories, theological and pastoral approaches, and what the heck transformation could mean. It’s a tough one.

—

About Our Guests

Pastor Nate Oyloe is the founder and director of Agape First Ministries. Nate has ministered to the sexually and relationally broken since 2000. He has taught nationally on issues of gender and the redemptive power of God. He and his wife, two sons, and daughter live in Minneapolis, MN.

Luca Jo Groppoli is an ordained graduate of Christ for the Nation's Bible College. Luca serves as the associate director with Agape First Ministries and is passionate about disciple making and sharing that Jesus can and does, in fact, transform people, sharing her own story of living as a transgender male for over three decades.

www.agapefirstministries.org

—

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side X” and “Side B” (and others) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

Timestamps

(00:46) Introducing Nate and Luca

(08:09) What has finding freedom meant to you?

(10:59) Why Agape First? What is it you do?

(17:04) What's the nature of same-sex attraction: psychological, traumatic, biological, spiritual?

(36:10) Transformation: shifting away from same-sex attraction?

(57:06) Praying for healing: over disabilities, over sexuality?

(01:01:52) Statistics and experience: does being "ex-gay" actually stick?

(01:09:58) Is side B more dangerous than side A?

—

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Join us for a special in-person episode where we, TJ and David, share highlights and insights from our time at the Revoice Conference. We discuss the conference's mission, our personal experiences, and key takeaways on fostering community and kinship within the church.

Highlights mentioned:

Times of Worship
Worship Leader Wes
Misty Irons and David Bennet
Affinity Groups
Breakout engagement
Hospitality and overall conference timing
Connecting with incredible people

A few other highlights not mentioned:

Multicultural leadership
Multilingual and ASL representation
Breakout by Sister Heather Kristine
Brenna Blain’s heart and conviction reminded me of Francis Chan
Link to Revoice Conference videos (free for one year!): https://revoicelibrary.sardius.live/

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Coming in hot, folks… David Frank and TJ Espinoza reflect on sex positivity and how they see parts of the Christian Bible interacting with sexual desire, goodness, transcendence, and meaning. There’s nothing simple about the relationships between sex, marriage, having kids, pleasure, and our spiritual callings. But in those tensions, we also see goodness and fruitfulness. We hope that this discussion prompts more thinking for you all on what a comprehensive Christian sexual ethic can look like.

This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠.

__________

Timestamps

(03:23) What Sex Positive Usually Means

(10:48) Evangelical Churches Are Just As Pro-Sex

(16:55) Genesis, Song of Songs, Leviticus, Matthew, Revelation

(17:51) Sexual Difference in the Garden (Genesis)

(19:02) Consent Is Biblical (1st Corinthians)

(20:13) Erotic Poetry Isn't Smut (Song of Songs)

(26:04) Sex Is...Transcendent?...But NOT Worship (Leviticus)

(45:33) Jesus: Yeah, but... there's no marriage in heaven (Matthew)

(51:32) The (Sexless?) Bride of Christ (Revelation)

(53:31) Let's Hear It for... Sex Mediocrity!

__________

Links and References

We referenced these sections of the Bible in this episode:

Genesis 2-3
Songs of Songs/Solomon (whole book)
Leviticus 15:18
Matthew 22:30
Revelation 19
James 1:17
Isaiah 56:3-5

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Coming right up, some hot takes from Greg Coles on:

Why would you call yourself gay if you’re a Christian? That’s not your identity…
Wouldn’t it be better if you got married (to someone of the opposite sex)?
How do I talk to [person] about [LGBTQ sexuality topic we disagree on]?

If you are gay and Christian, or know someone who’s gay and a Christian, somebody in your life is asking these questions, and a whole lot more. This episode is for you, for sharing, and for further discussion.

Background: In Spring 2024, Greg Coles talked with a group of college students and campus ministers. We thought it was such a great primer on thinking Christianly about sexuality that we wanted to share it with you, slightly echo-y room and all.

This is not the end of the conversation—please reach out with your questions, comments, and further discussion!

About Our Guest

Greg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation. You can find most of his creative activities curated at gregorycoles.com and at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.

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Timestamps

(02:42) Greg on writing Single, Gay, Christian and his PhD

(05:01) Why use "gay" to describe yourself as a Christian?

(09:34) A vision for marriage-free abstinence and delight in the body

(17:01) Theological vs practical questions on sexuality

(20:30) Changes in sexual orientation: happens? is normative? Mixed orientation marriages?

(25:12) Marriage and singleness as complements

(30:08) How am I a gift to the body around me?

(33:16) Q&A: Straight Catholic priests can CHOOSE celibacy or marriage

(37:05) Q&A: Concerns about taking the identity of being gay

(43:13) Q&A: How do I love my lesbian sister well?

(46:53) Q&A: Discipleship convos: I can't believe in Jesus if it means THIS for LGBTQ people...

(51:46) Q&A: Sharing the gospel in an identity politics world

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Links and References

Gay and Catholic and Tenderness by Eve Tushnet

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Tim Otto is a man of intentional commitments: he lives in intentional Christian community; he pastors a church in San Francisco; he’s also gay and celibate, while still affirming gay marriage (Side A). Tim talked with co-hosts TJ and David Frank about his book Oriented to Faith, compassionate approaches, “third way” communities and “disputable” theological differences, celibate partnerships, and the importance of close community living.

Tim was a kind and engaging dialogue partner and we loved having this conversation with him! No matter where you land on the faith and sexuality topics, we hope our discussion ministers to you also.

About Our Guest

Tim Otto has lived in an intentional Christian community called Church of the Sojourners for 34 years and is one of its co-pastors. He has a Master of Theology degree from Duke Divinity School, is the author of Oriented to Faith: Transforming the Conflict over Gay Relationships, and loves walking around the Mission District of San Francisco, where he lives. You can find his recent writing on Substack at “Living in Extraordinary Love”: https://timotto.substack.com

For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod

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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” Here’s a quick summary:

"Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.
“Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.

Timestamps

(1:13) Tim's book: encouraging dialogue and love across sides

(8:03) Idolatry of the "traditional family"

(16:11) Taking a vow of celibacy as a side A gay man

(21:38) Our takes: on the authority and continuity of Scripture

(34:27) What traditionalist viewpoints do you find most compelling?

(38:54) What has moved you toward an affirming position?

(42:55) Are celibate partnerships gnostic?

(52:56) What makes a healthy/acceptable marriage? (same-sex, polyamory, polygamy…)

(1:07:18) How does San Francisco influence you?

(1:14:24) Bonus question: the "common purse" in Tim's community

Links and References

For your easier searching…

Sacred Cows: Exploring Contemporary Idolatry by J.A. Walter
The Drama of Scripture: Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story by Craig Bartholemew and Michael Goheen
Kevin Vanhoozer, theologian
Tenderness: A Gay Christian’s Guide to Unlearning Rejection and Experiencing God’s Extravagant Love by Eve Tushnet
“Century of the Self” documentary is on Youtube
Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul’s

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Nate Collins has been part of the Christian conversation around faith and sexuality for decades. He founded Revoice, a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted Christians, and he’s written two books on the topic. Also, Nate is himself gay or same-sex-attracted and in a mixed-orientation marriage. We are looking forward to sharing Nate’s and Revoice’s story with you, and also encouraging you to attend the Revoice conference with us this summer!

PS: at Revoice2024, come visit TJ and David at our workshop on (Re)discovering Kinship beyond Marriage. We would love to talk to you!

For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod

About Our Guest

Nate Collins is the founding president of Revoice, a ministry with a mission to support and encourage gay, bisexual, same-sex attracted, or other queer Christians—and those who love them—to live out the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality. He is the author of All But Invisible: Exploring Identity Questions at the Intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Zondervan, 2017), as well as a forthcoming volume about sexuality in the Biblical Theology for Life series from Zondervan Academic. He has an Masters of Divinity and PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Nate and his wife, Sara, live in St. Louis, MO, with their three children.

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Timestamps

(1:42) Who is Nate, apart from Revoice?

(10:04) On "mixed orientation marriages”

(23:18) Joining the faith & sexuality conversation over 20 years

(47:40) Fruit of Revoice: Hope in flourishing, community

(49:40) Aaand the Revoice conference promo code

(50:26) Does Side B "mandate celibacy"?

(54:57) Talking "Side X", pursuing change, new creation

(1:01:14) Identity politics for Christians

Links and References

Here are some resources or terms we mentioned in this episode, in case it’s helpful for your understanding and/or Google searching…

Spiritual Friendship blog: spiritualfriendship.org/Nashville Statement: cbmw.org/nashville-statement/GCN=Gay Christian NetworkQCF=Queer Christian FellowshipExodus=Exodus International Ministries

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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How do we build communities of collaboration and care? Are our communities in the West in crisis? What are the “common objects of love” that we share, and how do we—average Christians who care—seek those out and build on them?

We were delighted to talk with Jake Meador on some of these questions, which he touches on in his first book, In Search of the Common Good. Join us as we consider different angles on the practices we engage with that can change the imagination of our time.

Jake Meador (jakemeador.com) is a writer, speaker, and editor from Lincoln, Nebraska. He writes about place, politics, culture, and the ways that Christian faith speaks to all of the various questions that those topics raise. He also wrote a thesis on Kwame Nkrumah, a mid-20th century Ghanaian politician. He’s the author of two books, In Search of the Common Good: Christian Fidelity in a Fractured World and What Are Christians For?: Life Together at the End of the World. He serves as the editor-in-chief at Mere Orthodoxy (mereorthodoxy.com), a contributing editor with Plough magazine, and a board member with the Davenant Institute.

Timestamps

(02:23) A crisis of common life(10:21) Example: Declining birth rates as a social problem(19:07) Practical recs: asking for help, offering home(29:04) The historical church on property rights(34:16) Practices for communities: caught, not taught(38:22) Roots we don't choose(44:23) Identity is particular; Christianity is still bigger(47:31) Who's on the land, who's good for the land?(01:03:48) OK but we gotta talk about Kwame Nkrumah. Wild.

Links and References in This Episode

Ya’ll. Jake is a well-read man. We got a long list of books for your perusing pleasure (and easier searching).

Strangers in a Strange Land: Living the Catholic Faith in a Post-Christian World, Archbishop Charles J. Chaput (2017)
The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation, Rod Dreher (2017)
Resurrecting the Idea of Christian Society, R. R. Reno (2016)
The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America, George Packer (2014)
Out of the Ashes: Rebuilding American Culture, Anthony Esolen (2017)
Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, Robert Putnam (2000)
Nancy Pearcey (author)
Kirkpatrick Sale (author)
Remaking the World: How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West, Andrew Wilson (2023)
Wendell Berry (author)—I don’t even know what to tell you, he’s written a lot.
Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution, Carl Trueman (2020)
Why Marx Was Right, Terry Eagleton (2018)
An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz (2015)
Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants, Robin Wall Kimmerer (2015
Pope Francis on a “throwaway” society (article link)
John Paul II on a “culture of death” (Evangelium Vitae (1995))
The Cold War and the Color Line: American Race Relations in the Global Arena, Thomas Borstelmann (2003)

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And here are some additional resources or terms mentioned in this episode, not a resource, exactly, but it might make this conversation searchable/accessible to global listeners:L’Abri is a “Christian residential study center ministry”Several theologians, church fathers, and theorists talked about property rights: John Calvin, St. Basil of Caesarea in Cappadocia, John Locke, and Emil Brunner on “the inner infinity of God’s law”.

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! Email us at communionandshalom@gmail.com, or leave a comment on Substack→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Let’s talk about common pantry, ya’ll. Today we’re taking on the nitty gritty details of sharing food with people, usually those you live with. Why on earth does this even need to be talked about?

Well, those of you in a “traditional” couple-with-children household probably already share food (often whether or not you want to). But any of you living alone or with other single roommates may find sharing food with others appalling, unappealing, or just plain impossible.

Friend of the podcast Hannah Hiler is here to tell you differently! David talks with Hannah about why she advocates for sharing a common pantry with others—why it follows God’s call for sacrificial community, how it creates generous hospitality, and some details that can make it work or fail.

Hannah is a graphic designer who is passionate about community and hospitality. She currently lives in a community house in South Minneapolis.

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This is part of an ongoing series on The Commons. For more, check out a couple other episodes:

Our first episode on Imagining the Commons, with Brendan Johnson (#30): https://open.substack.com/pub/communionshalom/p/30-imagining-the-commons-with-brendan-7ee

A Workshop with David and Elena on Building Households and Communities Together (#39): https://open.substack.com/pub/communionshalom/p/39-building-households-and-communities-c53

Joseph Pearce on Transformative Economics (#38): https://communionshalom.substack.com/p/38-economics-for-local-community-e78

Timestamps

(00:37) Introducing Hannah

(03:28) Christian community=Living with others

(8:14) “Common Pantry: Everything in the fridge is yours

(25:18) Free beans and rice for everyone?

(31:53) When you SHOULDN'T do Common Pantry

(40:56) Single human seeking independence

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

View Details

David’s friend Josh had a pretty radical experience of “healing”…

Supernatural healing is always a complex topic, and with sexual attraction this continues to prove true. Does orientation change? Should we pray for it to change? Josh used to experience same-sex sexual attraction, and through some unusual events, he is also increasingly attracted to women. We offer his story as a provoking thought piece as we try to make sense of how God may work in each of our lives.

Note: This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

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Timestamps

(1:22) "An overwhelmingly positive church upbringing”

(10:33) God makes a ... joke

(18:42) Experiencing (bi?) attraction after healing

(29:13) I don't prescribe theology, but don't write off healing

(43:41) Has progressive theology ever been persuasive to you?

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Links and References

Something They Will Not Forget by Joshua Gibbs

“A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner” - episode #19, published 12/8/2022

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Voice Actor (Josh overdub): Carl Swenson

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Schelli Cronk, Becky Hestness, and Kim Klayum work together at Transform MN, equipping Christian leaders across Minnesota to engage complex issues from a biblical perspective. They are also good friends who have personally and professionally been challenged over time to grow their love and care for LGBTQ friends and family. We are inspired by their deep convictions and equally deep support for LGBTQ folks. We got to hear a bit of their stories and how God’s been working through them in their communities.

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Timestamps

(01:17) Introducing Transform MN

(06:36) Personally/professionally, how do you arrive at this conversation?

(26:29) Being good allies, good friends

(37:29) Sharing truth, grace, and applying it equitably

(44:27) Encouragement and caution: be in relationship with people

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Links and References

Transform MN: https://transformmn.org/

Grace/Truth videos from the Center for Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Preston Sprinkle): https://ondemand.centerforfaith.com/courses/grace-truth

Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/

Laurie Krieg: https://lauriekrieg.com/

TJ’s episode on covenant brotherhood: https://www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/on-covenant-brotherhood-with-special-reference-to-tjs-covenant/

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This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

View Details

David Frank (you know him) and Elena (podcast manager) gave a workshop talk at Revoice 2023. It was pretty great, and also, predictably, hit-or-miss with sound quality. Enjoy!

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Links and References

The Life We’re Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World by Andy Crouch (publisher’s link)

Our workshop presentation: [Link to Google presentation]

Our worksheet and resources handout: [Link to Google doc]

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

View Details

Joseph Pearce’s book Small Is Still Beautiful is a compelling spotlight on the "well-kept secret" of economist E. F. Schumacher. David Frank and Brendan Johnson (from episode 30) talked with Joseph about small localism versus globalism, cooperatives and sharing versus capitalist individualism, and the like. Join us for a delightful conversation around the commons, community, and collaborative flourishing.

About Our Guest

A native of England, Joseph Pearce is the internationally acclaimed author of many books, which include bestsellers such as The Quest for Shakespeare, Tolkien: Man and Myth, The Unmasking of Oscar Wilde, C. S. Lewis and The Catholic Church, Literary Converts, Wisdom and Innocence: A Life of G.K. Chesterton, Solzhenitsyn: A Soul in Exile and Old Thunder: A Life of Hilaire Belloc. He is an author, publisher, editor, lecturer, and professor. His personal website is www.jpearce.co.

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Timestamps

(0:26) Introducing Joseph Pearce

(2:51) Encountering E. F. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful

(5:38) Modern economics that don't lead to flourishing

(7:45) Distributing wealth, local solidarity

(15:13) Mondragon Corporation: Solidarity in practice

(18:03) The world since 20 years ago: what's changed?

(22:01) Advice for voting with your dollars

(27:45) Is there a risk in things being too small?

(32:47) Reading recommendations

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Links and References

Small Is Still Beautiful: Economics as if Families Mattered by Joseph Pearce (2006)- link to publisher

Joseph Pearce - Facebook, Instagram

Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered by E. F. Schumacher (1973) - link to publisher

Thomas Storck

Wilhelm Röpke

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Catholic canon lawyer Daniel Quinan works for the Catholic church, not the state legal system, reviewing marriage annullment cases for the Catholic Archdiocese. If you’re Catholic, maybe you’re familiar with this system. If you’re not, it may be totally new to you. We wanted to hear from Daniel on how Catholic understandings of justice, catechism, and canon law directly impact treatment of those in the church who are LGBT/queer/same-sex attracted. David and TJ talk with Daniel about marriage, procreation, contraception, sexual intercourse, and a bunch of other topics that are legal and technical and somehow still might make your grandmother blush. (Although… we don’t know your grandmother. Maybe she’d be fine.)

Join us for our brief educational tour!

About Our Guest:

Daniel Quinan is a canon lawyer (JCL) currently working for the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis. His public writing on LGBTQ Catholic matters is currently published on the Spiritual Friendship blog, and also in a number of canon law Advisory Opinions (available on Academia.edu). You can find him more informally on most social media platforms @masterjedi747, which is his old AIM screen name, a fact that stands as a testimony to his millennial nerd credentials.

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Timestamps

(0:00:26) Daniel's background: Catholic, canon lawyer, side B

(0:10:16) What is canon law?

(0:20:39) The Catholic tradition on same-sex attraction or orientation

(0:30:21) What is sex for?

(0:40:23) Contraception and the meaning of marriage

(0:44:31) Why can some people marry but not others (in the Catholic church)?

(0:53:24) "Disordered" in the Catholic catechism

(1:16:45) Celibate partnerships/chaste same sex unions in Catholic tradition and law

(1:25:12) Perspectives on Father James Martin

(1:28:20) A vision for queer people in the Catholic church

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Linden Hope's debut album comes from her collection of songs processing through her own journey of faith and sexuality. Please contribute love to the "Bees" by supporting her kickstarter by November 21st.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lindseyhope/songs-for-the-bees-a-gay-womans-journey-of-faith

*The "Bees" is a term of affection for the Side B community, LGBTQ/SSA followers of Jesus who pick up their cross and follow him in a traditional Christian sexual ethic through the difficult terrain of their sexualities.

Additional Link:
Switchfoot Has Never Let You Down - Common Good (https://commongoodmag.com/switchfoot-has-never-let-you-down/)

(00:00) Intro song "Chosen" by Linden Hope
(16:32) Song preview of "Wild" by Linden Hope
(18:54) Kickstarter Description - ends 11/21

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Anna Carter and Shannon Ochoa lead Eden Invitation, a Catholic Side B ministry for LGBTQ+ discipleship. TJ and David talked with them about their founding story, mystical theology, Pride Month, the opportunity and challenges of giant gray areas, theories of change, and so much more.

We love how intensely they pursue loving God and loving their communities well. Please join us for this delightful conversation. (And yes, the retreat they mention has already happened—but there’s always next year!)

About Our Guests:

As culture shifts, Eden Invitation believes the Church must be there to meet it. We are striving disciples with LGBTQ+ experiences, building community with others who desire a way of life in congruence with Christ and His Church. Through in-person events and online community, Eden Invitation creates space to receive the whole person, grow systems of mutual support, and empower for creative discipleship.

Anna Carter is the co-founder and President of Eden Invitation. Anna’s tenacious faith in Jesus predated her own experience of same-sex desires. Her passion for catechesis and evangelization brought her to the Franciscan University of Steubenville, NET Ministries, and the high school classroom. Now through directing the work of Eden Invitation, Anna proclaims that there is resurrected life in the midst of our longings. Anna wanted to found Eden Invitation in order to ensure there was a just pastoral response and to give light to what a “yes” to the Church’s teachings can look like.
Shannon Ochoa is the co-founder and Vice-President of Eden Invitation. Shannon graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with degrees in Social Welfare and Gender & Women's Studies. She has fallen for men and for women, but ultimately she fell for the beauty of Christ and His Church. Prior to founding Eden Invitation, Shannon worked in college campus ministry with The Evangelical Catholic and Brew City Catholic. She felt compelled to co-found Eden Invitation because she wanted disciples to know they were good, to not be afraid of themselves, and to find dynamic, faithful community. If you're looking for her, try the shore of the nearest body of water. She’ll be in a hammock.

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Timestamps

(2:20) Introducing Anna and Shannon

(3:40) The beginnings of Eden Invitation

(7:32) EI distinctives: Stepping into the longing together in community

(15:54) Connections for non-queer people?

(20:18) Catholic tradition on disordered desires, celibacy traditions, gift of self

(33:44) Relating to Courage and Desert Streams

(35:41) "People just assumed we were only a women's ministry”

(39:06) The language question: "We try to let the air out of it"

(44:38) Healing or change of sexual orientation: How do you respond?

(54:41) Engaging gender discordance

(1:00:13) On Pride: "We're trying to protect people from the shrapnel”

(1:03:15) Developing the future, “gigantic gray areas”

(1:06:02) Hope and barriers in the Catholic conversation

(1:13:03) How to connect with Eden Invitation

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Links and References

Eden Invitation website: www.edeninvitation.com
EI Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/edeninvitation/
EI Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/edeninvitation

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

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Marco Casanova is a Catholic leader of a ministry called Living Waters, helping people pursue healing, often around sexuality. TJ and David had a very engaging talk with Marco about his take on homosexuality/same-sex attraction, marriage and singleness, Pope John Paul II, and the work of healing and transformation. Within the Christian sexuality conversation, Marco’s approach might be called “Side X”, although he differs from the approach of older “ex-gay” ministries. Join us in listening and learning from our guest as we seek to understand his story and perspective.

About Our Guest:

Marco Casanova is Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries. He encountered Living Waters as a seminarian seeking answers in his broken sexuality. After eight years, Marco left priestly formation and joined the Desert Stream team. His primary task is to oversee Living Waters USA and to equip lay faithful to run effective healing groups in their church communities. He married his wife Ania in December 2022. The Casanovas are parishioners of St. Peter's Parish, Brookside, MO.

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Timestamps

(01:30) Marco's story of same sex attraction, sexual addiction

(14:25) What is "integration," at Living Waters?

(20:49) Dating with zero chemistry--advice?

(23:25) What does "spousal" design mean for chosen celibacy?

(28:35) Can everyone achieve “integration”?

(34:10) Does same-sex attraction have any gifts/goods?

(37:59) Brothers, sisters, spouses, and the "safety" of gay guys…

(45:13) If there's not marriage/sex in heaven...?

(49:07) On Exodus International, ex-gay ministries, and conversion therapy

(59:26) Differences between Side B and your perspective?

(1:08:25) What is authentic theological anthropology? (Can SSA be a part of moving forward?)

(1:25:11) Do you know Eden Invitation?

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Links and References We Mentioned

Marco’s ministry, Desert Streams: desertstream.org

Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia, new book translation (2006)

Elizabeth Moberly - Wikipedia

Joseph Nicolosi - Wikipedia

If you like this podcast, please consider…

__________

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

View Details

Misty Irons has been part of the faith and sexuality conversation for over 20 years. We were honored to talk to her about her journey with Side B, being an ally to queer people, and what an “accommodationist” view of Side A could look like. We’re grateful for her perspective and her intense care and thoughtfulness on topics of faith and sexuality.

About Our Guest:

Misty Irons is a friend of LGBTQ Christians and has served this community as a conference speaker, seminar leader, and podcast guest, representing a straight-ally perspective. For 16 years she maintained a blog on faith and sexuality. She is a graduate of Westminster Seminary California (M.A., Biblical Studies) and a member of the Presbyterian Church in America. She currently resides in Los Angeles, California.

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3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

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Timestamps

(00:57) Introducing Misty Irons

(04:17) Entering the conversation on faith and sexuality

(14:06) Getting involved in QCF

(27:28) Inside experience vs. outside "promises” of ex-gay ministries (”Side X”)

(35:55) Sexuality theology in Presbyterian and Reformed circles: sin, misery, and ____?

(45:10) What has it meant to be an ally to queer people?

(54:40) Comparing terms: "Gentile Christian" and "queer Christian”

__________

Links and References

Misty’s blog with links to recent talks: moremusingson.blogspot.com

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

View Details

Kristyn Komarnicki started Oriented to Love 13 years ago, almost accidentally, in an effort to include the voices of gay people who weren’t present in Christian spaces that she was involved in. Since then, this program, under the aegis of the Christians for Social Action, has become deeper, broader, and more intentional about engaging Christians who have different stances on LGBT topics and bringing them into dialogue with each other.

We talked with Kristyn about how she facilitates dialogues between people with very different convictions. We appreciate her work: in helping us ask better questions. In practicing care. In becoming oriented toward love.

We hope you’ll join us!

About Our Guest:

Kristyn Komarnicki is director of dialogue and convening at Christians for Social Action (CSA). The creator of CSA’s Oriented to Love dialogues about sexual/gender diversity in the church, Kristyn gathers Christians of different sexual orientations, gender identities, and theological convictions together so they can begin to know, understand, and love each other, in search of a unity that is deeper than agreement. Fascinated and encouraged by what happens when we approach our “other” in the posture of a learner—with vulnerability, bravery, curiosity and humility—Kristyn enjoys helping people have more generative conversations, reframing conflict not as something to be feared or avoided but as an opportunity for maturing in Christ. A xenophile who loves to travel and swap stories with people from around the world, Kristyn has studied and worked on three continents, having made a home in Paris, Toronto, and Hong Kong. Today she lives in Philadelphia with her husband of over 30 years.

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Timestamps

(00:23) A transformative journey of privilege

(08:16) What if everyone takes the posture of a learner?

(16:56) How do you/OTL navigate tensions in this (LGBT) conversation?

(20:34) Postures of the heart that help this conversation

(29:17) Dialoguing with truth, love, and the slippery slope

(39:52) Being a straight ally

(44:15) Resources for getting involved in OTL

(45:25) How has OTL affected participants' lives?

(48:13) Resources for better question-asking

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Links and References

Ask Powerful Questions: Create Conversations That Matter by Will Wise and Chad Littlefield
I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times by Monica Guzman
High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How to Get Out of It by Amanda Ripley
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey
Oriented to Love program: christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/
Tip Sheet: “Crafting Dialogue-Nurturing Questions” from OTL
Workshop: “Transforming Conflict through Curiosity”

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

In the spring, TJ attended a small dialogue, Oriented to Love (OTL), sponsored by the Christians for Social Action. OTL hosts thoughtful conversations across difference, specifically among Christians, both queer and straight, who take on different beliefs and positions on questions of gender, sexuality, and how those topics interact with their faith. It’s a rare opportunity when someone can hold space for people to meet, care well, listen carefully, and share their stories honestly. Oriented to Love aims not to change anyone’s mind, but to facilitate listening and thoughtful dialogue among participants.

In this episode, TJ talked David through his experience in this group conversation and the many additional questions that emerged from the experience.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, our Communion & Shalom episode #3, talks through the 4 “sides”: #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

Also note that “Side C” is sometimes used to refer to a perspective that doesn’t choose a “side” or tries to make space for all “sides” to exist in unity.

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Timestamps

(00:27) What Is "Oriented to Love"?

(09:53) Stepping into the first room of the conversation

(14:41) The second room: Not just listening, but sharing convictions

(21:31) Discomfort is inevitable

(27:49) "We don't think you're a worse Christian”

(37:56) Heresy, inheriting the kingdom, sin, salvation…

(44:34) 3 questions that distinguish "wings" of Side B

(51:14) Faith and works, degree of severity, fear and trembling

(1:03:49) We recommend OTL

__________

Links and References

“Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

Hey there! We recorded an episode at Revoice 2023—a conference supporting Christians who are sexual minorities seeking to live out their faith according to a traditional, biblical sexual ethic. We loved doing this live episode recording with the Revoice community, and we are delighted to welcome Greg Coles and Erin Phelps to the podcast stage:

Gregory Coles is the author of Single, Gay, Christian (InterVarsity Press, 2017) and No Longer Strangers (InterVarsity Press, 2021). He holds a PhD in English from Penn State and lives in Idaho's Treasure Valley, where he works as a writer and speaker. Greg is a Senior Research Fellow at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender and curates most of his creative activities at gregorycoles.com.
Erin Phelps is a Lumbee and Waccamaw Siouan woman living in Charlotte, North Carolina. Her interests include, anti-racism, sustainable fashion, and boy bands. Currently she is working to building a community for Side B women called Your Other Sisters alongside Your Other Brothers.

We talked with Erin and Greg about the social construction of sexual orientation language—what it means to use human-created categories like “gay” or “queer” in a way that affects our daily realities. We talk about whether the words we choose to describe ourselves matter, how you might come out to someone in different languages, the need to use language to push back against oppression, and much more.

So, please bear with the echoes and sound quality of a live Q&A—this was an exciting episode to create with the Revoice community, and now we’re excited to share it with you!

—

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.

This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
Our Communion & Shalom episode #3, we talk through the 4 “sides”:

3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

—

And, in case you’re listening to this with children around…This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

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Timestamps

(3:43) Introducing Greg Coles and Erin Phelps!

(6:43) Dr. Gregory Coles explains "social construction”

(10:31) An abridged history of sexual orientation

(18:32) Are you "on board" with sexual orientation?

(29:20) Advice for the church: the telos for my life, and labels in Florida

(33:35) Q: What about “reclaiming queer" as a response to over-sexualization?

(40:52) Labels as self-determination ("People want to be called something nice")

(44:00) Q: Using your indigenous culture's labels for sexuality

(52:09) Q: How do you share sexual orientation in another language?

(57:38) Q: Talking to the next generation about sexuality

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Resources and References

In early usage, “heterosexuality” and “homosexuality” were used to refer to the “abnormal” minority: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexuality

Revoice: https://www.revoice.org/

Some resources we mentioned—check out:

Pieter Valk’s organization, EQUIP: https://equipyourcommunity.org/

Kaleidoscope Ministries: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/

Posture Shift: https://postureshift.com/

Eden Invitation: https://www.edeninvitation.com/

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

If God calls us to seek the common good of our communities—what does that mean in real life? The commons, a shared community place or resource, is a critical idea in this conversation. Even better: it’s not just an idea; it’s been practiced around the globe in many times and places. David Frank talks with friend and fellow housemate Brendan Johnson about the ways we could start thinking differently—really differently—about our public, private, and shared resources.

Our goal is to inspire you to imagine new ways of flourishing and to open the conversation further. Shoot us a message with any comments, questions, or critiques. There’s so much around this topic left to discuss!

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Timestamps

(1:21) What is “the commons”?

(5:47) Commons vs., say, a public park

(14:24) Seeking the common good in common life

(18:59) Rights to common air, water vs. privatization

(24:50) Who are “the commoners”?

(30:22) Example of 3M and the (failure of) water commons

(35:53) The tragedy of the commons

(39:17) “Beating the bounds”

(42:47) Healthcare and the mental commons

(45:23) Joy and the desire to contribute

(50:15) What it means to be human

(53:06) The commons of communion

(57:23) What we can do now

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Links and References

Our Guest Today is D. Brendan Johnson: https://linktr.ee/dbrendanjohnson

"A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (The Land, 2009; link to publisher)

Small is Beautiful by E.F. Schumacher (1973, link to publisher)

Christ and the Common Life by Luke Bretherton (2019, link to publisher)

“The Tragedy of the Commons” by Garrett Hardin (Science, 1968; link to JStor)

Governing the Commons by Elinor Ostrom (1990, link to publisher)

Podcast: "Frontiers of Commoning with David Bollier" https://david-bollier.simplecast.com/

Free, Fair, and Alive by David Bollier and Silke Helfrich https://freefairandalive.org/

Cooperation Jackson in Mississippi https://cooperationjackson.org/

Mondragon Corporation in Spain https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

We (TJ and David) first connected with philosopher Joel Carini from a few of his articles on a reformed theology of same-sex attraction. In this episode, Joel joined us for a conversation around various Christian contexts, nature and grace, Side B and identity language, and, of course, philosophy. We appreciate Joel’s care and thoughtfulness around his work, and we hope (whether you agree with him or not) you’ll find his approach worth engaging!

—

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.

This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
Our Communion & Shalom episode #3, we talk through the 4 “sides”

3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

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Timestamps

(0:59) Joel's background

(05:12) Sidenote: new urbanist community

(08:06) Moving toward reformed theology

(10:56) Studying philosophy as a follower of Jesus

(31:15) What is orthodoxy, and what isn't?

(41:01) What is a "natural theologian"?

(48:09) How theology/philosophy helps me love God and others

(54:26) Why conservative Christians emphasize identity language?

(1:00:28) Becoming sympathetic to side B

(1:11:18) People's responses in your church circles

(1:26:36) Sharing side B with conservative Christians

(1:35:38) Advice for intellectuals in the side B conversation

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Links and References

Joel Carini’s Substack: https://joelcarini.substack.com/

“Same Sex Attraction and the Misery of Our Condition” https://joelcarini.substack.com/p/same-sex-attraction-and-the-misery

—

Confused about something they referenced in this podcast? So was Podcast Manager Elena. We can’t link to every one of them…so instead here’s the references we caught, spelled correctly, for your easier Google searching:

John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist), Greg Beale, Karl Barth, Van Till (Westminster presuppositionalism), Carl Trueman, Wayne Grudem and complementarianism and egalitarianism, Bruce Ware, heterodox, Miguel de Unamuno (existentialist novelist), Greg Johnson in Christianity Today magazine, Retreat to Commitment by W. W. Bartley III, subordinationism, Bethel McGrew, Wesley Hill’s book Spiritual Friendship

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

Ariel is a friend of this podcast and—more importantly—a friend to many humans, both queer and straight. We have seen her intuitive care and fierce kindness shine in her support of queer friends and family. We asked her to share some wisdom with us all!

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Timestamps

(02:23) Growing up in evangelical Christianity with queer friends

(11:46) The goodness of diversity in communities

(14:59) Why not use the word "ally"? Or "advocate"?

(21:20) The church has struggled to keep up with culture...and could it ever be "ahead"?

(30:32) What does it mean to be a friend (to...anyone)?

(38:55) Advice for Christians struggling with friendships with queer people

(42:34) Raising kids around differences that aren't scary

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

__________

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

Paul-Anthony Turner is a gay Christian philosopher and pastor who used to be Side B (holding a traditional Christian sexual ethic of chastity in opposite-sex marriage or a celibate vocation) and is now Side A (affirming same-sex marriage). He takes TJ through his reasoning and philosophy for how he arrives at a Side A position. Preview: He likes Kant a LOT.

One of our main goals with Communion & Shalom is to bring people who believe differently than we do, and differently than each other, into conversation on difficult topics like Christian sexuality. Wherever you find yourself on these topics, we hope you’ll find this conversation gives you insight into other perspectives.

Also, this episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.

This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
Our Communion & Shalom episode #3, we talk through the 4 “sides”#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

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Timestamps(06:40) Paul Anthony introduces himself

(09:02) "I always knew I was gay...”

(12:58) When did you become "Side B"?

(28:52) What was your process of transitioning from Side B to Side A

(35:03) Epistemology, ontology, phenomenology... and other philosophical frameworks

(46:47) What is the place of spiritual revelation in your philosophical model?

(55:07) "Doesn't the text have some power to resist the interpretations we bring to it?”

(59:34) But why are you Side A?

(1:04:49) A wager like Pascal's

(1:10:27) How does the idea of sin interact with the account you're giving for sexuality?

(1:17:56) "I think in some ways that absolute knowledge is like the boogeyman in your account...”

(1:18:27) What role does tradition play in your account of same-sex sex within Christianity?

(1:32:34) How do you relate to Side B people now that you're Side A?

(1:39:18) Interpreting the text and the world we are in: "To what extent do you think we [Side B] are wrong?”

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Other Notes

For those of us who aren’t students of either theology or philosophy, a quick-and-dirty reference list….

hermeneutics—different methods of interpretation

ontology—“what makes a thing what it is?”

epistemology—”how can we know what we know?”

teleology—”What is a thing’s goal or purpose?”

phenomenology—“How does my experience affect my engagement with the world?”

Some named-dropped philosophers and theologians, for your spelling convenience: Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Alfred Whitehead, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, George Lindbeck

monsignor - Wikipedia

Books by James K. A. Smith—Desiring the Kingdom, Who’s Afraid of Postmodernism?, and Who’s Afraid of Relativism?

Paul Anthony’s friends Ed Oxford and Kathy Baldock are writing a book called Forging A Sacred Weapon

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

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→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

Within Christian circles on the faith and sexuality, we (especially Side B people) spend a lot of time talking about different “sides” and where we stand. Some people think we shouldn’t even talk about sides at all. While there may be merit to some of their objections, we still think it’s a valuable way of framing things. This episode explains why we keep using “Side A” and “Side B”. We might give you some new ideas, might change your mind… or it might just give you more things to argue about with us. We welcome all of those!

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, and Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation (welcome!), you can totally join us for an insider conversation…but first we’d recommend one of these resources as an overview.

Our Communion & Shalom episode #3 talks through the 4 “sides”#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality
This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides

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Timestamps

(00:57) Why did this topic come up?(04:40) What are the strengths of using "sides" language or framework?(09:33) Critiques of using "sides" language or frameworks(25:03) Critiques we find wisdom in(27:08) Alternatives: What other language besides "sides" could we use?(35:59) Is "sides" language sufficient for our moment?

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Links and References

Below are some names mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation easier to follow and look up.

Saint Aelred - Wikipedia
We mention Rosaria Butterfield on this episode, who represents “Side Y”.
Matthew Vines represents a traditional “Side A” perspective.
Tyler Sit was a guest on this podcast - Episode 13
Giacomo San Filippo was a guest on this podcast - Episode 17

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

Ethnicity, race, nationalism… Just bringing up those words can raise the temperature of the room. These topics intersect and affect our daily lives in ways that are so important—how do we, as Christians, engage these topics well?

We share some initial thoughts on ethnicity and on why it can be important to focus on it, or de-emphasize it, in our daily lives.

We welcome your input and sharpening of these ideas, as always. Thanks for listening!

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Timestamps

(04:33) Defining “ethnicity”

(08:28) David’s ethnic background, plus a quick definition of "Mennonite”

(21:36) Finding your roots, and Disney's Moana

(28:32) TJ's ethnic background

(32:39) Tensions in community, family, and what roots you grow

(37:57) Counter-argument: “Ethnic tribalism is a threat to peaceful universalism”

(50:51) Wrapping up

__________

Links and References

“The Radical Anti-Racism of Christopher Hitchens” https://fairforall.substack.com/p/hitchens-antiracism

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

We are so excited to welcome Mwendia Steve Kiengu to the podcast as we begin highlighting perspectives from Africa!

Mwendia is a seminary student in Kenya who’s grown up with same-sex attraction. He talks with TJ about the African cultural dynamics they’ve both experienced around same-sex attraction—how people talk about it, advice they give, and the challenges that Christians with same-sex attractions face.

We value Mwendia’s perspective on sexuality, both for Africans engaging in the conversation and for global listeners expanding their knowledge of the world.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand, which is most often a western framing. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.

Article from Life on Side B: www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
Our Communion & Shalom episode: #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

Timestamps

(0:24) TJ: On highlighting African voices
(04:09) Introducing Mwendia
(16:02) Same-sex sexual relations (and insult words) among Kenyan young people
(22:54) Are there gay Kenyan celebrities?
(25:36) Most closeted Kenyans stay there (under pressure to marry, have kids)
(32:21) African values on marriage + kids (high), celibacy (low)
(40:41) Openness to celibate partnerships, LGBT language? in Kenya
(50:02) "This is a western ideology”
(58:44) Kenyan Christians who affirm same-sex sex?
(1:00:00) Finding the boldness to build community
(1:05:36) What LGBT language is used among Kenyan Christians?

Links and References

Mwendia’s blog: https://thequestionofsexuality.home.blog/
Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (2010) Link to publisher
Spiritual Friendship blog: https://spiritualfriendship.org/
Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/
Still Time to Care by Greg Johnson (2021) Link to publisher

—

Below are some resources or terms mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).

Binyavanga Wainaina was a famous Kenyan writer who was open about his homosexuality. Wiki
Kenyan fashion designer and LGBTQ activitist Chiloba Edwin was recently murdered. Wiki
The story of Leah’s and Rachel’s use of their maids as surrogate mothers/concubines to build their families is found in Genesis 29:31 through 30:22.

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact
→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena

View Details

We (David and TJ) are Side B, and we care about engaging people across differences. Last year we interviewed three Side A folks from different perspectives:

#12 - JP’s Story: Moving Away from Side B#13 - Ordained, Gay, and Seeking Liberation: A Chat with Rev. Tyler Sit#17 - Giacomo Sanfilippo on the Asceticism of Same-Sex Love

In January, we got the chance to sit down together and reflect on those three interviews. We anticipate continued conversations with Side A friends, and we don’t want this to be the end of the discussion—please join us as we continue it!

Timestamps

(0:32) Context: What did we learn, and what similarities and differences do we see?
(11:38) JP: on singleness in Side X
(14:41) JP: on why he left Side B
(21:22) JP: on celibate partnerships
(24:49) Tyler Sit: on purity culture, empire, and liberation
(37:17) Tyler Sit: on which cross we should bear
(43:22) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on human and divine eros
(47:43) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on moralism vs asceticism
(1:00:19) David and TJ: final thoughts (for now)

Links and References“Bill Nye Unweaves the Rainbow—and Undersells Science” by Leah Libresco Sargeant (May 2017) https://leahlibresco.com/bill-nye-unweaves-the-rainbow-and-undersells-science/
“Designing Woman“ by Leah Libresco Sargeant (Sept. 2022) https://comment.org/designing-woman/

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview:

Our Communion & Shalom episode #3 talks through the 4 main “sides.” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality
This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary. https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact
→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena

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Contrary to (some) opinions, those of us who consider ourselves “Side B” on Christian sexuality don’t agree on everything, nor is there a shared “declaration of theology” document that we can all agree on. What ideas unite and divide the Side B community? TJ and David identify 6 areas of unity and 8 areas of difference, within the Side B community.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.

This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
Our Communion & Shalom episode #3, we talk through the 4 “sides” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

And, if it helps clarify…when we say someone “is Side B”, we’re referring to those of us who are ourselves queer or same-sex attracted (which is different than the larger group, queer or straight, who align with Side B’s general theology and posture).

__________

Timestamps

(00:23) Why this episode is needed

Shared Unity in Side B:
(05:00) 1. Historic Christian sexual ethic
(05:39) 2. The church should uphold celibate vocation
(06:06) 3. Willingness to see the goods of being queer
(08:30) 4. Same-sex attraction isn’t morally culpable as a sinful action (we differ on what is “indwelling sin”)
(10:19) 5. Using wisdom, not prescribed language, for identity terms
(10:56) 6. Opposition to “conversion therapy”

Differences within Side B (11:46):
(13:37) 1. Theological, denominational traditions
(15:49) 2. Backgrounds, countries, cultures, beliefs, practices
(17:10) 3. How we relate to LGBT/queer subculture(s)
(23:32) 4. How we theologically evaluate Side A (or Y, X) beliefs
(24:30) Where we started affects our current theological stance
(25:36) The value we place on certain virtues (esp. TRUTH) affects our current theological stance
(27:41) How big is the gap is between Side A and B?
(45:03) 5. How we relate to gender norms
(47:41) 6. How Christians should influence polity, laws, esp. on gay marriage
(50:06) 7. Perspectives on having celibate partnerships
(51:43) 8. Diversity in communities (it’s a human problem)

(52:22) In conclusion, why does this matter?

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Links and References

Previous Communion & Shalom podcast episodes we referred to:

11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides (July 13, 2022)

BONUS: A Virtual Tour of TJ's Experience at Pride 2022 (Sept 7, 2022)

Revoice Conference: https://revoice.us/

One example of Rosaria Butterfield’s critique of Side B: https://podcast.choosetruthovertribe.com/episodes/rosaria-butterfield-christian-lesbian

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To our listeners! You are invited to come join us if you are in the Twin Cities area this upcoming Friday evening. Email us at communionandshalom@gmail.com for details.

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Tate grew up in small-town, Bible-belt Texas before attending “the absolute worst of the worst” of the “too liberal or too secular" universities. We (David and TJ) talk with Tate about his story of coming out, growing in faith, and being a bridge between different communities.We appreciated Tate’s reflection on how the words we use to describe sexuality (such as gay, same-sex attracted, homosexual, etc.), can mean different things to different communities.Note: This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.__________Timestamps0:55 - Tate’s background7:35 - The language of being gay, coming out16:55 - Community perceptions of homosexuality in language and activity25:10 - College: taking faith seriously, being gay at a “liberal” university33:00 - Conversations on sexuality with campus ministers vs. Gen Z classmates38:45 - Speaking and consulting on Christianity and same-sex sexuality48:35 - “My understanding of sin changed when I left home”50:45 - How does/should the Christian church relate to queer people?55:15 - How do you think about your attractions, your sexuality?1:00:00 - Christian views on homosexuality: what categories did/do you use?1:05:00 - Why are you not “Side A” (affirming of same-sex marriage/sexual relationships)?1:07:10 - How can queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT people fit in the church? What are the positive gifts or strengths of being queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT?__________Links and References in This EpisodeTate’s blog: tate.fyiWashed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality (2010) by Wesley HillTwo Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—contributors: William Loader, Megan K. DeFranza, Wesley Hill, Stephen R. Holmes; edited by Preston Sprinkle“Being gay is like a drop of ink in a glass of water”—referenced in a Spiritual Friendship blog post by Wesley Hill: https://spiritualfriendship.org/2016/03/10/will-i-be-gay-in-the-resurrection/__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or by emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalomIf you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom

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True love means… what??

There are many answers to that question, and in this episode, we’re just talking about some of them. In part 3 of our conversation with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, we reflect on some of the implications of the “pure relationship”—and how combining or removing certain elements of the historic marriage relationship can have big impacts. How should we think about desire, romantic attraction, and the marriage relationship today? And how does this impact how we think about love and kinship in other forms?

If you have more answers to those questions, get in touch!

This episode is part 3 of 3.

__________

Timestamps

4:15 - Marriage as an image of God’s love: is it more agape or eros?
17:10 - What elements makes it marriage? economic factors, children, romantic attraction, sex?
22:25 - Jesus on divorce, adultery: What’s the underlying logic?
25:35 - Where do we go from here? Directing desire and romantic attraction
43:20 - What is the constructive Christian response to the current “pure relationship” model?
49:36 - Kathryn’s book recommendation: Kristin Lavransdatter

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Links and References

Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net
Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”
Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)
The Symposium by Plato (wiki)
The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)
The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)
Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren
Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset

__________

Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.

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But not that kind of western romance…

Pop quiz: Which of the following reasons is a good reason to get married to someone?

Because your family or social circle wants you to
Because you sexually desire that person (or are already sexually involved)
Because you want children (or have them already)
Because you need financial stability
Because you’re “in love” with that person
Because you’re “in love” with someone else

Some of these answers might seem ridiculous, but a hundred or a thousand years ago, people concluded very different things about marriage and romance, depending on the age they live in.

We in the West can bundle together a lot of expectations for romantic partners—they should be your best friend, have romantic attraction, maybe build a family together, share finances, support you emotionally, and on and on. Sometimes we separate out just one or two items—attraction, best-friendship—and focus on that alone. But it hasn’t always been this way. In the scale of human history, our current assumptions about romance and marriage are actually quite young.

In part 2 of this series, we continue our conversation with friend and scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, to look through the lens of Western literature at changing perspectives on romance, (Christian) marriage, love, and intimacy through the ages.

This episode is part 2 of 3. For anyone who has had to work through their expectations for romantic relationships (or other people’s expectations for your relationships!), this episode is for you.

__________

Timestamps

1:45 - The biology of attraction
8:05 - The ancient world: Marriage as economic arrangement
10:35 - The early Christian church: equality in adultery
12:15 - Courtly love and longing in the 11th century
20:05 - Example: King Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere
23:30 - Arranged marriages and consent in the Christian church
30:05- Example: Dante and Beatrice
39:30 - Contemporary Christian emphasis on marriage—does it deserve it?
45:05 - Companionate marriage: Edmund Spenser’s poetry
49:00 - Holiness as celibacy (Catholics) or married life (Protestants)
53:45 - Song of Songs in the church’s imagination
58:05 - The development of the “pure relationship”

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Links and References

Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net
The Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis
The Symposium by Plato (wiki)
The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)
The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)
Edmund Spenser, poet (wiki)
Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”

__________

Please share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.

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What does it mean to love your best friend? Is it the same as the kind of love you have for your spouse or romantic partner? How about the kind of love that God gives us, or that we can give God?

These are questions that people have been asking in the Christian tradition for millennia. Eros is one of the Greek words for love that people have argued about. In this episode, we talk with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner about how people have defined eros, from Plato, to C.S. Lewis, to a recent conference podcast from pastor Robert Cunningham.

This episode is part 1 of 3.

__________

Timestamps

3:30 - What’s important about the word “eros”?
4:15 - Eros in C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves6:55 - Summarizing Robert Cunningham’s 3 sermons on Eros
16:00 - Eros in Plato’s Symposium
20:00 - Does eros only refer to sexual love?

__________

Links and References

Kathryn Mogk Wagner's website: kathryn.mogkwagner.net

The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis (listen to original audio on the Internet Archive; read a brief summary of the book)

Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)

The Symposium by Plato (wiki)

Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren

__________

Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.

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Note: This podcast includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. TJ and David talked with Giacomo Sanfilippo, who is an Orthodox Christian and the founding editor of the blog Orthodoxy in Dialogue, where he has become the Orthodox Church’s most well known LGBTQ advocate. Largely influenced by his work on Father Pavel Florensky, Giacomo’s perspective is grounded in an ascetic view of sexuality and same-sex love, whereby Christians are made more like God through acts of self-sacrifice and discipline. Based on his work at Orthodoxy in Dialogue, we wanted to hear more about how he comes to his theology of sexuality, particularly as embedded in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition. Giacomo was a great conversation partner in seeking to understand a theology of same-sex love and building understanding across differences. We encourage listeners to listen closely to try to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and to think about how people from a Side B perspective might engage people with whom they have distinct disagreements but also surprising similarities. __________ Timestamps 1:00 - Introducing Giacomo 6:00 - Orthodox marriage vs same-sex relationships 11:55 - What has theologically informed your understanding of same-sex love? 24:40 - Giacomo’s story 37:00 - Becoming more public in the Christian sexuality conversation 43:25 - How do you integrate your understanding of same-sex love with the Orthodox church’s teaching around marriage? 48:25 - Asceticism in sexuality: a monogamous vision for same-sex (and heterosexual) couples 54:00 - If there’s no sex in heaven… 58:05 - Do people who are celibate miss out on a “need”? 1:18:30 - The myth of being “fully satisfied” in a relationship 1:28:00 - David and TJ on Side B perceptions of queerness __________ Links, References, and Terms Orthodoxy in Dialogue website: orthodoxyindialogue.com Article: “Conjugal Friendship” publicorthodoxy.org/2017/05/02/conjugal-friendship/ Asceticism (you can look this up many places. We’ll offer just one relevant link: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Asceticism) Antinomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomy Pavel Florensky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Florensky __________ Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com. If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom Follow us on Instagram: @communionandshalom

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Michelle and Will are two friends who identify as asexual and queer, and we (David and TJ) wanted to hear their take on what’s good about being queer. Before that, we spent a little more time reflecting on those topics ourselves.

__________

Timestamps

01:00 - In which David and TJ summarize a few initial goods from their own queer experience: avoiding “the establishment”, discipleship, Plato’s take on social contributions, humility, God working in the margins.

10:45 - Please don’t feel bad if you’re not queer (or “queer enough”)

12:20 - Now, back to our regularly scheduled interview with Will and Michelle…

13:20 - Queerness can develop self-discernment, humility, self-sacrifice in suffering

24:50 - Queer people often see the brokenness of the world, need for corporate confession

27:40 - Queer people can sometimes have a “genius” for friendship, be a “safe friend”, and change the script on intimacy and masculinity

34:15 - Queerness: everyone’s a special snowflake, yes, but there’s something deeply Christian about that

39:45 - Queerness disrupts our emphasis on marriage and romance

57:40 - The scandal of a mixed gender household

58:45 - In conclusion: It’s about seeing Christ, and ourselves through his eyes

__________

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Join us as we (David, TJ, and our friends Will and Michelle—who are asexual/queer) explore ideas of what “queerness” means. While we can’t come to one single definition, we hit on a kaleidoscope of topics as we explore the weirdness inherent in the word “queer,” the queering influence of Christianity, queerness and the arts, and ontological questions about queer sexual orientation.

—

A Few Quick Definitions for Your Optional Reference

asexuality: a lack of sexual attraction or desire for sexual activity (see Wikipedia)

ontology: the philosophical study of the nature of being, what it means to be; the nature of inherent personhood.

autognosis: self-knowledge; the understanding of one’s own psychodynamics, character, nature, abilities, etc.

theosis: the process of humans becoming more like God (this theological concept is prominent in particular in Eastern Orthodox Christian theology)

__________

Timestamps

Conversation with Michelle and Will:

1:30 - Introductions

3:50 - Queer as a neutral word for “weird”

9:25 - Early and medieval Christianity—Origen, consecrated virgins, Franciscans, and Anchorites

16:00 - Queer theory—destruction of cultural norms, avoiding oppression

18:10 - Queerness, the arts, and avoiding “the game”

(TJ’s definition of “queer” at 20:15: “a special affinity for people of the same sex”)

23:50 - Self knowledge (“autognosis”): becoming more ourselves, more like Christ

29:00 - Self creation: identity narcissism in our current culture

30:50 - Michelle on art that knows oneself, community, and God

33:10 - TJ on difficulties with ontology and gender norms

Further Thoughts from David and TJ:

38:35 - Ontology: queerness as inherent vs. queerness as essence (i.e., an established trait vs a core, created good)

42:10 - Defining queer: “same-sex affinity” vs. “challenging dominant cultural norms”

49:15 - On the social construction of (queer) identity categories

55:15 - Why “queer” should not be synonymous with “broken”

__________

Links and References

“S04E10 | Collin, Michelle, & Will on Being Ace (w/ Grant)” (Life on Side B podcast)

Article: “Is Theatre Really Queer?”

Book: On the Incarnation by Athanasius (read online)

__________

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TJ talks with Lucas, a friend from the Midwest (US) who experiences same-sex attraction and generally identifies with Side B but finds understanding among several “sides” of the Christian debate. We see Lucas’s story offering an example of someone processing through faith, attraction, ethnicity, political frameworks, and arriving at a position of thoughtfulness and nuance.

—

"Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:

“Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.
”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being "ex gay."
“Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being "gay."

Timestamps

2:25 - Lucas' church background

7:06 - The pros and cons of different words: Same-sex attraction, gayness, and more

10:04 - Lucas' story: Naming and understanding about same-sex attraction

21:09 - Lucas' story: Sharing about same-sex attraction

29:02 - An alternate vision of marriage in culture ("we make marriage more difficult than it has to be")

35:10 - Connecting culture and ethnicity with sexuality conversations

39:25 - Why aren't you side A? (or, What is marriage for?)

43:32 - Why don't you see yourself in side X or side Y?

51:49 - Side B: More opportunity for friendships?

54:47 - Suggestions for future research on queerness

59:55 - Other intersections (intellectual traditions, multi-ethnic, etc.) with Lucas' perspective

1:02:16 - The possible role of government in sexual morality

1:09:03 - Looking to the future: Co-housing

Links and References

Below are some resources or terms that Lucas and TJ mention in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).

Spiritual Friendship Blog: spiritualfriendship.org/

Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill

Spiritual Friendship by Wesley Hill

Out of a Far Country by Christopher Yuan and Angela Yuan

Changed Movement: https://changedmovement.com/

Freedom March: https://www.freedomtomarch.com/

The theological idea of “concupiscence”: according to Wikipedia and the Roman Catholic encyclopedia.

In the episode, Lucas also mentioned the Pulse Massacre (Wikipedia)—content warning for violence, murder, and terror.

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com

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In June 2022, TJ went to a Pride Festival for the first time, and he reflects on his experience, with alternating bemusement and critique.

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David and TJ sit down with Rev. Tyler Sit of New City Church in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA. Tyler represents a “Side A” pastoral perspective as an ordained minister for the United Methodist Church in the US. In this wide-ranging conversation, David and TJ to seek to understand Tyler's perspective, his understanding of "Side B," and his take on Side A hermeneutics, particularly those centered in liberation theologies. Tyler was an excellent conversation partner in this. We encourage our listeners to listen closely to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and consider how a Side B perspective might engage similar folks.

(Note: We often use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand. "Side A" generally affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships. “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction while upholding the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.)

__________

Timestamps

02:19 - Tyler’s story: “I want to see God”

07:18 - Tyler’s story: Coming out, pursuing ministry

11:18 - The United Methodist Church’s approach to homosexuality

13:45 - Tyler’s story: Pursuing ordination, LGBT campus ministry

19:42 - Tyler’s story: Encountering other Christian perspectives in seminary

21:50 - Tyler on constructs for sexuality

25:51 - Methodist positions and tensions over the last (many) years

33:15 - A hermeneutic of loving God, neighbor, self

36:00 - Q: Why is the traditional/non-affirming perspective not persuasive to you? (Liberation theology, purity culture)

45:27 - Q: Why does the church need queer voices?

50:24 - Liberation theology: How does “the coming age” relate to sexuality right now?

52:39 - Suffering in the Christian life

1:03:30 - Early Christianity persecution and family models

1:07:34 - Where we diverge on humans’ design, power, and authority

1:22:26 - David’s experience with Tyler’s church, plus our initial experiences with community, coming out

1:30:35 - The use of tradition, authority, and “orthophilia”

1:34:45 - Differing ideological frameworks: “Empire” vs. “the world”

1:39:23 - Christendom, justice movements, and our relationship to the state

1:42:58 - Freedom and oppression, God as a parent, and centers of identity

1:48:46 - Benediction

__________

Links and References

Tyler Sit’s website: www.tylersit.com/about-tyler

An article on the United Methodist’s “Traditional Plan”.

The Romans passage mentioned in our conversation is Romans 1:16-32.

—

Below are some links that may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course): The Boy Scouts of America (Wikipedia), Westboro Baptist Church (Wikipedia), ROTC program (Wikipedia), Hillel House (Wikipedia), Candler School of Theology, About Taizé prayer.

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David and TJ get together with friend JP from the Twin Cities. We talk about JP’s movement away from “Side B” to a more agnostic and/or “Side A” position. We also get into JP’s experience with the “ex-gay” movement, people, and ministries, and we talk about issues he sees in US Christianity that make some of these conversations difficult for queer people.

__________

Timestamps

01:05 - Introducing JP

12:42 - Cultural gender norms in Christian culture and beyond

14:25 - Getting involved in ex-gay ministries, “Side B” community

23:27 - “There was this push towards heterosexual marriage”

32:36 - Leaving the “Side B” group

38:46 - Losing room to breathe in a church context

41:45 - Thoughts on celibate partnerships and why they can fail

46:42 - On churches making sacrifices, disagreeing in community

49:56 - Shifting perspectives through reading, friends, cognitive dissonance

1:04:42 - JP’s current perspectives on “Side B”

__________

For Your Reference

Luke 6:43-45 (NIV) (we mentioned it around 1hour, 2min)

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.”

Below are some links to organizations or topics mentioned in the conversation, with the caveat that linking doesn’t necessarily imply endorsement.

Outpost Ministries: https://outpostministries.org/

Twin Cities Justice House of Prayer: https://tcjhop.org/

Just for Fun: An article about Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the Football: https://slate.com/culture/2014/10/the-history-of-lucys-pulling-the-football-away-from-charlie-brown-in-peanuts.html

__________

If you enjoy this episode or want to discuss further, drop us a line! Send us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom, use the contact form on our website www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact, or email us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com

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In this bonus episode, TJ and David review the 6 universal moral foundations from Jonathan Haidt’s research in light of their views—and others’—on Christian queer sexuality. This is a follow-up to last week’s discussion, so you may want to listen to that episode also.

If you enjoy this bonus episode, drop us a line! Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom, using the contact form on our website www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact, or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com

__________

For Reference:

The 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team are as follows:

Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.

Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.

Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).

Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Liberty/Oppression (a potential additional foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor.

__________

Other Resources:

Jonathan Haidt: jonathanhaidt.com

Moral Foundation Theory: moralfoundations.org + Quiz yourmorals.org

The Righteous Mind Book and Resources: righteousmind.com

Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell Berry: counterpointpress.com/dd-product/sex-economy-freedom-community/

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TJ and David dig into Dr. Jonathan Haidt’s social, cultural, and psychological research on the universal moral foundations, based on Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, i.e. we explore how these foundations inform our “intuitive ethics,” which give key insights to how we approach sexual ethics. We also talk through how this theory relates to different perspectives (”Sides” A, B, Y, and X) in the conversation around sexual ethics. We hope that this conversation builds up wisdom for all of us to engage better in being morally reflective, virtuous persons embedded in our larger communities, structures, and lands.

We apologize for some audio quality issues.

Trigger warning: When we are reading the first paragraphs of Jonathan Haidt’s A Righteous Mind, we mention a sex act in the first few minutes of the podcast which may make listeners uncomfortable.

_____________

0:00 - The Righteous Mind's intro to universal moral foundations

4:47 - Quick refresher: “Side A”, “Side Y”, “Side X”, and “Side B”

9:30 - Intro to the 6 moral foundations

12:40 - Elephant and the rider (who’s steering?)

20:30 - Side A foundations for moral thinking

40:13 - The church handling polygamy in an African context

44:25 - The Bible’s emphasis on different moral foundations

49:32 - Wrapping up

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For reference, the 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team:

Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.

Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.

Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).

Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Liberty/Oppression (a potential foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor.

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Jonathan Haidt: jonathanhaidt.com

Moral Foundation Theory: moralfoundations.org + Quiz yourmorals.org

The Righteous Mind Book and Resources: righteousmind.com

Russell Moore Interview with Haidt: https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/09/21/russell-moore-jonathan-haidt-a-conversation/

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After verbally processing on our last podcast, we read and listened to various perspectives that differ from ours and are coming back to discuss it again. This can be considered a summary of sorts of the last podcast, with some finer-tuned thoughts.

See David's reflection that he shared with his church - The False Dichotomy of Pride Month

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Referenced Articles:

Rod Dreher - https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-shame-of-pride-month/

Carl Trueman - https://wng.org/opinions/welcome-to-pride-month-christian-1654083759

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What to do about the Pride Month? Reject? Celebrate? A little of both?

TJ and David take a stab at complexifying this simple question.

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In this episode, we, joined by our friend and project manager/editor Alaina, talk about covenant brotherhood, via the particular instantiation of TJ’s covenant brotherhood/s with four brothers. TJ shares his general story, we talk about the general shape and contours of the relationship, consider its relationship to celibate partnerships, and provide general preliminary advice about what it might look like to pursue this relationship in the US context. This is the first of many planned conversations on this topic - enjoy!

Show Notes:

Book - Brothermaking in Late Byzantium and Antiquity by Claudia Rapp: Brother-Making in Late Antiquity and Byzantium - Claudia Rapp - Oxford University Press (oup.com)

Your Other Brother’s Podcast on Covenant Friendship: YOBcast 083: Covenant Friendship w/ Dr. Paul Eddy • Your Other Brothers

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Recommendation for episode #916 on the podcast Theology in the Raw. https://www.prestonsprinkle.com/theology-in-the-raw/916-misty-irons Preston Sprinkle gives good introductory thoughts on "gay" identity before sharing an incredible talk from Revoice by Misty Irons that we've mentioned before.

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David Frank shares about his "coming out" story at church and with family, reflecting on formative influences on his sexuality, and how God has established him in a Side B life that is committed to sewing into community.

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[CONTENT WARNING: Story includes brief mentions of direct sexual desire and addiction.]

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1:03 - Revoice Recap

6:48 - Jesus and My Sexuality

14:07 - Sin and Fanning the Flames

17:50 - About Coming Out to My Church

29:32 - Coming Out to My Family

39:12 - Why Do I Struggle Less?

47:43 - Difficulties & Gifts of Being Queer/SSA/etc.

50:33 - Why not Side A? Why Side B?

53:10 - 1st Principal and Foundation of St. Ignatius*

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Show Notes:

Misty Iron's Blog https://moremusingson.blogspot.com/

We had audio inconsistencies that may be noticeable. Apologies!

*Sound from http://www.freesound.org/people/klankbeeld/

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TJ Espinoza shares the history of his personal understanding about his own sexuality, and how God has lead him through study, community, and spiritual experience towards a Side B conviction, even if it leaves him with many loose ends for his life.

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[CONTENT WARNING: Story includes brief mentions of moments of direct sexual desire.]

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2:24 - TJ in Americas

19:06 - Queer in Africa

22:38 - Christian College

27:33 - Entering the Side B Conversation

31:37 - Why not Side A?

47:09 - Tension in Singleness (America & Africa)

50:40 - Why Side B?

56:47 - Queer Identity vs Christian Identity | Identity Hierarchy

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*We had technical problems that required some audio re-recording.

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David and TJ get into one of the most commonly controversial topics currently regarding the Side B conversation and Side B Christians – terminology! We talk through some common reason why contemporary queer Christians may use queer/lgbt+ terminology in their lives versus people who would eschew such terms and often focus on instead using same sex (sexually) attracted (SS(S)A) terminology or else encouraging Christians not to use any such terms at all. This conversation is of particular relevance to the differences that separate Side B and Side Y / X Christians in our contemporary times. Apologies to our listeners for some audio issues on TJ’s end.

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Show Notes:

Yarhouse’s post providing commentary on the recent Anglican Church of North America’s Pastoral Statement regarding same sex relationships, identity, language, etc.: Reflections on The ACNA Pastoral Statement – Mark Yarhouse (wordpress.com)

Two side B Christians, Rachel Gilson and Greg Coles, have a dialogue on the use of “Gay” vs. “Same Sex Attraction”: “Gay” Vs. “Same Sex Attraction:” A Dialogue | The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender

A post by Rosaria Butterfield who is typically labeled as Side Y where she calls into question using sexual orientation language: What is wrong with gay Christianity? What is Side A and Side B anyway? — Rosaria Champagne Butterfield (rosariabutterfield.com)

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David and TJ discuss the goals, statuses, and potential impacts of several overtures (i.e. amendments) that were brought to the PCA national conversation in June/July of 2021. The Presbyterian Church in America's (PCA's) General Assembly was an event of much debate and controversy as this denomination tried to take a stance on ordination of "gay" pastors. While these proposed changes won't directly affect members of PCA congregations, they do aim at barring/removing pastors and other officers from serving in the church if they identify as "gay", "SSA", etc.

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Contents:

00 - Intro to PCA, Revoice, Greg Johnson, Study Report, "SSA Sin", Overtures

20 - General Assembly and 3-Step Process for Overture Amendments

22 - Overture 16: "those who identify as homosexual and claim to practice celibacy"

24 - Overture 23: “Those who profess an identity . . . that undermines or contradicts their identity as new creations in Christ”

37 - Overture 37: Character examination of candidate & “must not be known by reputation or self-profession for his remaining sinfulness"

47 - Concluding Steps and Recommended Actions

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Links:

5 Reasons to Vote No To Overture 37 by Travis Scott (why it will not bring peace and unity to the PCA)

Summary of the Overtures 23 and 37 (the two overtures on homosexuality that passed through General Assembly)

PCA Study Report on Human Sexuality

Video Conversation from Tim Keller and Kevin DeYoung on the Study Report (YouTube)

An Open Letter from Pastors in the PCA on Charity and Faithfulness (afaithfulpca.net)

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David and TJ describe the “Sides” terminology/heuristic device used among many Christians engaged in the conversation around sexuality and Christianity in the US. They describe the most common fourfold system - A, B, Y, X – including the key principles that animate the particular school of thought, key organizations and/or figures, and values or postures that seem to be embedded among people in each broad school.

This conversation will be of use to listening to many future episodes as we are likely to use this system as a basic reference system when talking about the various schools of thought.

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Show Notes:

Here is David's shorthand tool for remembering the 4 sides:

Side Affirming homosexual practice #affirm

Side Contextualizing traditional Biblical sexuality #renew

Side whY talk about sexual orientation #renounce

Side eX-Gay therapy #rebuild

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A Summary Chart of ABYX [PNG Link]

A thorough breakdown and history of the 4 sides [4 Sides - Life on Side B]

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The origination of the Side A and B distinction from the Gay Christian Network (note: the contemporary Side B perspective is more expansive than this) [Bridges-Across: The Sides of the Divide -archive]

Mudblood Catholic’s Definition and Origination of the Side Y Descriptor [Mudblood Catholic: Gay and Catholic, Part I: Gaystation Two]

Bible Gender, and Sexuality by James V Brownson [Book link]

Michael Hannon Article “Against Heterosexuality” [Against Heterosexuality by Michael W. Hannon | Articles | First Things]

Rosaria Butterfield’s What is wrong with gay Christianity? What is Side A and Side B anyway? [What is wrong with gay Christianity? What is Side A and Side B anyway? — Rosaria Champagne Butterfield (rosariabutterfield.com)]

Strength of His Might’s Definition System – Adding Sides C & O [Definition of Terms | Strength of His Might (wordpress.com)]

Kevin DeYoung’s Article “Four Approaches to Race, Politics, and Gender” [Four Approaches to Race, Politics, and Gender - Kevin DeYoung (thegospelcoalition.org)]

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Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships

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TJ and David have a lovely time chatting with Raye! Raye is a Side B woman, who shares her experience growing up in a conservative Christian home and church, and later comes to terms with her tilted perspective. At times she identifies as "queer", yet she has recently and happily joined in marriage with her husband.

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00 - Gender Roles, Sexuality, & Growing Up

11 - Hospitality and Vulnerability

20 - Explaining your Marriage as a Queer Person

32 - Importance of Friendships

41 - Unexpected Goods; "Queering" in Art

45 - PCA

56 - Sharing Personal Convictions to Side A and Side X people

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This episode is a bit longer than anticipated, so feel free to listen to this as 1.5x speed to keep it under an hour ;)

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Communion & Shalom's first episode, where TJ and David discuss why many straight Christians feel pulled to "Side A", an affirming progressive sexual ethics perspective (i.e. approval of gay marriage/sex). TJ and David discuss these dynamics, and the impact on queer/gay/SSA/etc Christians who are "Side B" (i.e. not-straight, but affirm the historical Biblical teaching of sex between husband and wife).

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Communion & Shalom: Recent Episodes

David Frank and TJ Espinoza

21 - Tate’s Story: Growing Up Gay in Texas

24 - African Voices: Mwendia Shares on Same-Sex Attraction in Kenya

52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom

54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

34 - Interview with a Longstanding Side B Ally, Misty Irons

54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

48 - What Is Transformation? with Agape First Ministries

41 - Unexpected Shifts: Josh’s Story of Prayer, Healing, and Attraction

35 - Marco Casanova on Integration, Healing, and Orientation

32 - TJ Participated in an “Oriented to Love” Dialogue--Here Are His Thoughts

33 - Asking Better Questions with Oriented to Love’s Kristyn Komarnicki

11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides

3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality

11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides (July 13, 2022)