Your First Digital Product: Recent Episodes
Rene
Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing 1:1 work, and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch and market your first digital product.
At the end of every season, I ask myself four questions. What happened? What went well? What didn't go well? And what's next? In this episode, I'll share ALL the answers to those questions, plus some specific financial information on the brand and why this episode will likely be the last.
Links 🔗
- Season 1 Recap
- Season 2 Recap
- Podcast appearances
- Send me a voice message
- Get in touch
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep68
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There's no better time to start thinking about accessibility than today! Erin talks about the why and how to make your digital products (and business) more accessible.
Erin Perkins is a champion for disability rights and an entrepreneur promoting accessibility and inclusiveness. As a deafblind woman, she founded Mabely Q, an independent online business. Erin also serves as a speaker and educator. Her unique experiences foster genuine inclusion, empowering people with disabilities. With Erin's guidance, businesses embrace diversity and unlock the potential of every individual.
Links 🔗
- Free Social Media Scorecard
- Accessibility Made Easy
- Visit Erin's website
- Find Erin on Instagram
- Listen to my solo episode on making your digital product more accessible
- Accessible PDFs From InDesign Training
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep67
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"Build an audience" is one of the biggest pieces of advice in the online world, but what if you create a product first? Brionna created her Contracts Foundations course knowing that because it was so valuable, people would find it. She also recommends the course to new leads when they can't afford her 1:1 services or just to get up to speed with the fundamentals of contracts before they start working with her.
Brionna is a self-described multi-dimensional misfit. She started her career in law working at various firms in California before she became the second legal hire at a nascent electric vehicle company. She left her full-time role as in-house counsel 5 years ago to pursue entrepreneurship as a legal consultant and wellbeing guide. She's worked with everyone from C-level executives at Fortune 100 companies, to new solopreneurs, to stay-at-home caregivers, to teenagers. Most recently, she launched a new venture, The Everyday Lawyer, that's focused on teaching freelancers and solopreneurs the foundations of business law so they can make better and more confident decisions in their work.
Links 🔗
- Brionna's Linktree
- Visit Brionna online
- Sign up for her newsletter
- Follow her on Instagram
- Connect with her on LinkedIn
- Find her on Threads
- Subscribe to her YouTube channel
- Dani Gardner Discoverability by Design (affiliate)
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep66
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Digital products don't have to be so hard! Listen to Liz's story of selling her first product, then creating it and how she continues to create and sell with relative ease.
The Fresh Princess of Email Marketing, Liz Wilcox is an Email Strategist and Keynote Speaker showing small businesses how to build online relationships, package up their “magic” and turn it into emails that people want to read and, most importantly, purchase from.
In the span of 5 years, Liz grew and sold a successful blog, got bought out of her second company, and built the third into a multiple six-figure party that just won’t quit! In other words, she now teaches online entrepreneurs to simplify the whole “email marketing thing” and finally master their sales in a way that leverages their personality, vision, and values.
She’s best known for her 4200+ users membership, 20 Minute Newsletter technique, and the Email Staircase framework she’s taught to tens of thousands of creatives, freelancers, ecommerce shop owners, and small businesses across the globe.
Offline, Liz lives in Florida, loves to run and is a walking 90s pop culture encyclopedia.
Links 🔗
- Free email swipes
- Liz's website
- Join the Facebook group
- Follow Liz on Instagram
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep65
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Tune in for a very meta episode! Yasmine shares the story of creating digital products (contract templates for service providers) but also talks about the contracts you need as a service provider and digital product creator.
Meet Yasmine Salem Hamdan, an award-winning entrepreneur and intellectual property attorney based in Dallas, Texas. She's the founder of Coachesandcompany.com, where she's revolutionizing legal protection for entrepreneurs by offering plug-and-play legal solutions and lawyer-created business contracts without the hefty law firm fees. Her innovative approach has helped thousands of entrepreneurs safeguard their businesses and financial futures. Yasmine also hosts The Business of Doing Business Podcast, where she shares bite-sized lessons and invaluable insights, catering to modern entrepreneurs. Her contributions have earned recognition from platforms like Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, Thinkific, and Dallas Startup Week.
Yasmine’s mission is to help entrepreneurs everywhere build their own Protected & Profitable businesses in order to create a positive impact on the world & financial independence for themselves.
Links 🔗
- FREE Legally Launch Guide
- Digital Product Terms & Conditions Contract Template
- Coaches & Company on Instagram
- Coaches & Company on Threads
- Yasmine on LinkedIn
- The Business of Doing Business Podcast
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep64
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Laura has gone through several evolutions of her business, from 1:1 work to a membership to a group cohort to courses and beyond. Her goal is always to build her business around her life, and she has developed a really great sense of self to know what works for her and what doesn't.
Laura is an online marketing mentor and experienced digital copywriter. Over the last 10 years, she has helped hundreds of business owners create and sell 1-1 services, courses, memberships, and group programs. She’s taught thousands of people around the world, through the copywriting training she created for international business organizations including Female Entrepreneur Association, Enterprise Nation, and Membership Academy. She is also the author of the Comfy Business Playbook, and the creator of the Comfy Business Newsletter for people who want a business that flexes around their other life challenges, priorities, and adventures.
Links 🔗
- Sign up for Laura's newsletter
- Follow her on Facebook or Instagram
- Check out Laura's products and services
- Kay's episode
- Laura's episode on Membership Geeks
- Laura's episode on Female Entrepreneur Association
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep63
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With Black Friday quickly approaching, Samantha saw an opportunity to create a set of emails to help people sell their products. It was fast and without any tech; she emailed her list and manually invoiced customers. After seeing success, she went on to create more products.
Sam is the founder & lead copywriter at Nomad Copy Agency & Copy On Demand. Get copy that sounds like you, but better!
Links 🔗
- Get free guides
- Check out Copy on Demand
- Follow Samantha on Instagram
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep62
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If you're looking to create an online course, check out this episode where Deb shares her top tips including:
- Have a proven process, method or framework
- Help others get results
- Make sure your topic is in demand
- Plan well (including market research and finding the gap)
- Include touch points and accountability
Deb is the CEO of DB Course Strategies – an online course creation business. With over 20 years in the world of learning and development, including over a decade spent as an Instructional Designer, Deb specializes in creating learning programs that simplify complex subjects into manageable, transformative pieces for learners.
Links 🔗
- The Trick to Create Online Courses
- Get Deb's free/low cost tools for course creation
- Visit Deb's website
- Follow Deb on Instagram
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep61
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I don't get many business owners who want to come on the show and share that their first product didn't sell at all, but I am so glad that Raina Willick joined me to tell her story. Even though her first product failed from a sales perspective, she doesn't consider it a failure. She learned a lot and grew from the experience. We also chat about potential digital products for her new venture, Baguette Bound.
Raina Willick guides business owners to create more flow and fun in their work by cutting through their Shiny Object Syndrome and organizing the focus of their businesses around their Personal Jedi Code of Values.
Her goal is always to turn the internal clarity coaching brings into external action plans her clients can use to make their business a better place for them to work.
She is a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach (CPCC), a member and an Associate Certified Coach (ACC) of the International Coaching Federation, and a Fellow of the Institute of Coaching McLean, an affiliate of Harvard Medical School.
Since 2020, has spent hundreds of hours coaching owners of small service location based businesses, freelancers, content creators, agency owners, and consulting firm executives.
Previous to coaching, her experience as a Registered Nurse in critical care leadership taught her how to prioritize under pressure without loosing sight of the human element in every situation, and experience as a community manager for entrepreneurial memberships gave her unique insight into the lives and time challenges of business owners behind the scenes.
Personally, Raina has a deep understanding of when to dive in and when to turn away, like when she left a religious cult at age 18; when she signed up for (and completed) a triathlon without knowing how to swim; when she first enrolled in, then dropped out of, pastry school; and when she left a 17 year career as a critical care nurse to turn her talent for community organizing into a service building community growth and facilitating masterminds for entrepreneurs.
Raina grew up unschooled. She claims she will never have time for all the books on her list, and has seen every episode of The Office, Schitt’s Creek and Downton Abbey more than once. She is mother to one human child, wife to one human man, and reluctantly cohabitates with one talkative orange cat name Grits (she won’t claim to be his owner in case he reads this bio).
Links 🔗
- Raina's coaching website
- Baguette Bound YouTube channel
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep60
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It's another different kind of interview! Corrie is here to tell us all about using social media (and other marketing channels) to share the good news about our digital products and more. We dive into which channels are best for you, how often to post based on your capacity, consistency and how social media is a long game.
With over 22 years in digital marketing and over 17 years of experience developing social media campaigns, Corrie's career spans not only years but also industries. She's developed community marketing programs for video games & television shows and created social media programs for financial instructions, child advocacy centers, food service suppliers, and community nonprofits.
What's more? After all these years, she still loves helping people figure out how they can make their social media & email programs work for them. She believes there is something magical in assisting a team – big or small – to realize that they can make decisions that work for their organization, audience, and programs.
Links 🔗
- Visit Corrie's website
- Sign up for Sustainable Social
- Sign up for Chaos Freelancer
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep59
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There's a lot that goes into creating a digital product, but a common question that people ask is, where do I even start?
In this episode I'll share five steps to get started – scope, topic, audience, result and timeframe.
Links 🔗
- Brainstorming guide for potential digital product topics
- Schedule a free 30-minute strategy call
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep58
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Deanna and I are all over the place today talking about her audio courses and private podcasts, how digital products can help you connect with people, how her teaching background has helped her as a product creator and figuring out exactly what you want and need as an online business owner.
As the host of Big Fun Content, Deanna Seymour understands the power of creativity, fun, and lettin' your freak flag fly when it comes to content creation. She’s all about bold branding, lively design, and making less content, but doing it better.
With a mix of humor, empathy, and real talk, Deanna helps you feel more comfortable in your own skin so you can actually have fun with your content and connect with your perfect-fit clients.
When she’s not recording a new podcast episode or working with clients, she’s probably making GIFs, hangin’ with her fam, or sneaking in some Real Housewives!
Links 🔗
- Find Deanna on her website
- Follow Deanna on Instagram
- Check out the Anti-Hustle Holiday Series
- Buy Eff That
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep56
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Accessibility is the quality of being able to be reached, entered, used, or understood by everyone, especially people with disabilities.
Accessibility is a way to reach more people and help more people understand the information you're sharing with them. It's good for everyone and really just good practice.
In this episode, we'll talk about a few ways that you can make your digital product more accessible, without having to do a ton of extra work.
Links 🔗
- Book your free strategy session
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep56
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We're mixing it up today and instead of talking about Abby's digital products, she came on the show to talk about all things marketing. From creating pillar content to getting in front of other people's audiences, Abby answers all of my marketing questions!
Abby Herman is a fractional marketing director, content strategist and podcast manager for service-based businesses who want to gain more visibility for their businesses with personalized content strategies and implementation. She helps business owners let go of the day-to-day frustration around their marketing so her clients can get back to doing what they love in business. Abby is the voice behind The Content Experiment Podcast, where she features guests and solo episodes to talk about business growth and mindset, content strategy, and visibility for podcasters.
Links 🔗
- xkcd 10,000 comic
- Learn how to Ask Your Audience
- Visit Abby's website, thecontentexperiment.com
- Connect with Abby on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep55
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I love this question because on the surface it makes sense. It looks like a valid comparison, but if you really look at it, the comparison is just not there. In this episode, I dive into many ways that you can look at this.
Links 🔗
- Episode on audiences to sell to
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep54
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Have you ever thought about print on demand products as part of your offerings? Tim shares why and how he added these to his product list which also includes a few templates available on Gumroad.
Tim is a podcaster and YouTuber who covers content creation and social media strategy. He has spent much of his career in education, applied research, and project management, all of which involve elements of content creation and storytelling. Now, he's on a mission to use that experience to help other content creators and entrepreneurs develop their skills, build sustainable businesses, and achieve their goals.
Links 🔗
- Vanessa Lau
- Work Breakdown Structure
- Visit Tim's website
- Check out Tim's YouTube channel
- View Tim's products on Gumroad
- Check out Tim's print on demand products
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep53
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A new connection recently asked, If I have a lead magnet, do I have a product? And the answer is YES.
Smaller products are great because like lead magnets, they solve one problem really well. They are easier for you to create and easier for your customers to consume and get a big win from!
Today I'll share a few options when it comes to creating a digital product, all from the perspective of lead magnets.
Links 🔗
- Hollie's story
- Kyle's story
- Schedule a free, 30-minute strategy call
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep52
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Hollie created the Ultimate Branding Checklist as a lead magnet for her list. After seeing a lot of success, she decided to expand on it and now offers three additional paid options.
Hollie Arnett is a brand strategist and coach for creatives, and the founder of Maker & Moxie. With a background in graphic design and experience with her own art practice, Hollie knows the power of creativity and how building a brand can enable your creative business to thrive. That's why she's on a mission to help creators build their brand, grow their audience, and share their work with the world so that together we can make the world a more creative place, one brand at a time. More creativity, colour, and joy in the world? Yes please!
Links 🔗
- Download the Ultimate Branding Checklist
- Visit Hollie's website
- Follow Hollie on Instagram and Threads
- Check out Hollie's podcast, Brand Your Passion
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep51
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There are tons of sales platforms out there for your digital product – how do you know which is the best one for you? Let's talk about a few questions to ask when vetting sales platforms. I'll also share a variety of options and talk a bit about each.
Links 🔗
- Sign up for your free, 30-minute strategy session
- Watch my YouTube live on Lemon Squeezy and check out the blog post
- Sign up for reminders about my upcoming live on Gumroad
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep50
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We don't all have an idea for a product – sometimes it takes a friend or colleague to show us that we already have something to sell!
Debbie had been maintaining websites for many years, communicating with clients using email templates and snippets from Google docs. She was looking for a better way to clearly let her clients know what was and wasn't included in her care plans (and to upsell additional services). Once she created a comprehensive document, she also had a product to sell to her peers.
Links 🔗
- Three types of audiences you can sell to
- Check out Debbie's product (and use code YFDP20 for 20% off)
- Visit Debbie's agency website
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep49
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Everything you think about digital products is wrong.
As I was putting together the season 2 bonus episode with all of the advice from the digital product creators of season 2, I realized that SO many of the ideas we have about digital products are just plain incorrect.
Today I walk through things you may think you need to be or do, but that no guest on the show has ever actually mentioned.
Links 🔗
- Sign up for your free, 30-minute strategy session
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep48
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Join me as I walk through my four question framework (what happened, what went well, what didn't go well and what to try next time) as it applies to season 2 of the show. We'll also talk about how you can use this framework in any area of your life.
Links mentioned in this episode:
- Check out the season recaps Canva presentation
- YouTube lives
- Instagram and Threads
- Case studies – Stories from the Road
- Market research calls
- Cold open episode
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep47
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Kathleen has been creating digital products for 10 years and most recently launched Quizillionaire, a toolkit to create a high-converting online quiz that attracts your ideal customer. We talk about the pieces of Kathleen's sales funnel along with creator mindset blocks and shifts.
Kathleen Celmins, the founder and CEO of The Well-Paid Expert, has more than 15 years of experience in the online marketing world - in both large Fortune 500 companies and start-ups. She's on a mission to help creators (service providers, writers, designers, marketers, podcasters) become well-paid experts.
Find her at thewellpaidexpert.com and check out Quizillionaire at quizillionaire.com.
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep46
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There are two types of marketing when it comes to digital products – launch marketing and ongoing marketing. Today we'll talk about several things that you can do to market your product ongoing, beyond that initial launch period. From showcasing your products in easy-to-get-to places to creating content for your audience to leveraging other audiences, I share a number of ideas that you can try.
Links:
- Maximizing your website for converting digital products
- Affiliate marketing alongside your digital product with Angela Markham
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep45
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Maggie joins me to talk about her Solo Business Retreat Planning Guide and how this low-priced product is an offering for anyone at any point in their journey.
Maggie Gentry is a thought partner for high-conscious entrepreneurs—acting as a confidant and co-conspirator—gently guiding them towards their growth edges, pointing them back to their truth, and redefining how they do business on their own terms. When these elements flow together synchronistically, magic happens. Nothing gives her more joy than finding patterns amidst the (perceived) chaos so that her clients may step more fully into their genius and allow their businesses to be of service to the world.
Check out the episode I mentioned on the three types of audiences.
Find Maggie on her website at maggiegentry.com and sign up for her mindful marketing newsletter. Check out Maggie's virtual office hours (free) and Shift Sessions (pay what you're able). Read her blog post, Systems as Rituals: Don’t Let Your Business Burn You Out and check out her digital product, Solo Business Retreat Planning Guide.
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You may be wondering (like Roy on Threads) how to actually find time to work on a new digital product when you have client work and other obligations. In this episode, I share some questions around mindset to make sure you're in a good place, plus a few strategies for planning and time management.
Links:
- Schedule your free call
- Why Mondays are a great day to work on your digital product
- Digital product roadmap
- Using an email autoresponder
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep43
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Angela talks about her first product, The Flourishing Affiliate and how the process was much different from her new product, The Affiliate Ascent. I also ask all of my burning questions about using affiliate marketing with your digital products.
Angela Markham has been helping small business owners grow their income and impact with affiliate marketing since 2014. She educates and motivates her clients through online courses, coaching programs and management services, which are all built on establishing and growing genuine relationships to generate scalable income sources.
Find Angela at angelajoymarkham.com and connect with her on Instagram.
Get Angela’s free goodies – 25 ways to recruit affiliate partners and how to grow your business with affiliate marketing.
Check out her courses – The Flourishing Affiliate and The Affiliate Ascent.
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep42
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I posted a question on Twitter and Threads recently that I was planning solo episodes. I asked, what are you interested in learning about digital products? Fatima responded and said, maximizing your website for converting digital products. I love to talk about websites and have a ton of tips for you in this episode.
Links mentioned in this episode:
- What are you interested in learning about?
- Free calls
- Carrd
- Episode 8
- Gill's LinkedIn post
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep41
Send me a voice message 👉 https://yfdp.show/share
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Kim has been a serious student of marketing for as long as she's been in business. She also walks her talk and gets "clarity through the doing." In this episode, Kim also shares her love of physical products and how she's been offering those from the very beginning.
With over 15+ years in the digital marketing space, Kim is an email & newsletter enthusiast, podcaster, and founder of Create It - The Content Planner. Focused on living with intention & purpose, while maximizing fun.
Links mentioned in the episode:
- Copy School
- Ann Handley
- 12-Step Foolproof Sales Letter Template by David Frey
- Luma
- Breakthrough Launch
- Product Launch Formula
- HighLevel
- Creator’s Weekly
- Heartwork Journaling
- Heartwork Journaling University
- Extendly
- Be Your Future Self Now by Dr. Benjamin Hardy
- 10X is Easier Than 2X by Dan Sullivan
- Kim on YouTube
Find Kim on her website at kimdoyal.com, sign up for her newsletter, The Spark, and check out Create It, The Content Planner.
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep40
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In the last solo episode, I talked about dealing with disappointment in your digital product, but that's not the only emotion you may feel. In this episode, I explore the wheel of emotions and identify others you may encounter on your journey.
Links mentioned in the show:
- The wheel of emotions
- Gill's episode
- Kay's episode
- Rubber duck debugging
- Emily's episode
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep39
Send me a voice message 👉 https://yfdp.show/share
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Shawn is a business coach who advises her clients to act because action creates clarity. Learn how she has embodied this mantra with her first and second businesses and the digital products she's created over the years.
Shawn Fink is a creative business strategist who has been creating digital and virtual offers, coaching and selling online for 15 years. She's a gentle instigator and changemaker who prefers to operate as a free spirit and think outside the box of the online industry.
In 2013, she built a 6-figure membership business that helped her build a village of women around the world.
In 2020, she took a Brave YES Leap and closed that business down and moved into helping other entrepreneurs build thriving businesses.
She helps her clients grow, uplevel or pivot their business to center their thriving and joy.
Find her at shawnfink.com, sign up for her weekly Brave YES Business Playbook newsletter, learn more about her Bolder Business Boundaries Challenge and take her new quiz to Discover Your Entrepreneurial Courage Style.
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Digital products are not all rainbows and bubbles and baskets of kittens and buckets of money. There are a couple of different ways that you may experience disappointment with your digital product and in this episode, I talk about three of them.
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep37
Send me a voice message 👉 https://yfdp.show/share
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Bridget started with a prototype/passion project, an Amazon book, before diving into other Amazon books, a free content planner and her premium product, Launch With Words.
Author of several marketing books, Bridget Willard is a teacher who focuses on building relationships first, brands second. She prides herself in offering in-house training, marketing strategy, copywriting, and social media account management.
Her WordPress Plugin “Launch With Words” is a value-add for developers who focus on niche marketing. To equip small business owners, she writes, teaches, presents to small groups, and creates tutorials.
When she’s not inspiring small businesses, she is reading books, watching sports with Diesel The Cat, or enjoying the outdoors in Corpus Christi, TX.
Say hi to her on Twitter at @BridgetMWillard, visit her at bridgetwillard.com, check out her free Content Planner, visit Launch with Words, including her latest pack, the Web Dev SEO Mini Pack and view her books on Amazon.
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep36
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Many times we hold the "hard path" in high regard; if it's not hard, it's not worth it. But I think that taking the path of least resistance is your best bet to your first digital product.
- Sign up for your free 15-minute call
- Send me a voice message
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Kristina Romero has created a wide variety of products over the years and has used those products to create ongoing relationships, often with recurring revenue.
Kristina Romero began as a website developer creating websites for companies that included the Coca-Cola Company, Food Network, and Hollywood celebrities. Through her experience running an agency, she developed a passion for helping other website professionals grow their businesses and better serve their clients. Kristina has trained thousands of business professionals with content across the web through webinars and courses. With her training programs and recently published book The Revenue Relationship, Kristina's built a community where professionals can discover quality instruction to increase revenue and improve client relationships.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Get your book on Audible with acx.com
- The Recurring Revenue Retreat, use WPCMPEEPS for $150 off
- The Automatic Customer by John Warrillow
Find Kristina on her website or wpcaremarket.com, learn more about her book and check out her Facebook group.
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Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep34
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If imposter syndrome has been holding you back from creating, launching or marketing your first digital product, check out this episode where I share a few strategies for moving past it.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Schedule your free, 15-minute, no strings attached call
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep33
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Each step of the way, Kay has felt resistance getting to the next level. By asking for help, she's been able to break through barriers and has created a digital product and membership community that she's excited about.
Kay Peacey has honed her email marketing automation skills to ninja levels over 5 years of consulting and training for small businesses all over the world.
She’s the UK’s leading ActiveCampaign specialist and the founder of Slick Business. Their ActiveCampaign Academy provides expert help, training and support to email marketers all over the globe.
Kay’s unique combination of top-level strategy and technical skills plus a lifetime of teaching make her the perfect person to help your business unlock bigger return on investment from your email marketing automation whilst keeping the human touch.
She’s also partial to using the Lego mini-figs or paper aeroplanes to drive home the learning.
Links mentioned in the episode 👉
- Atomic
- Membership Geeks
- Worditude
- The Design Space
Find Kay on LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube or on her website. Check out the free Accelerated ActiveCampaign Training and join her Facebook group.
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I had an amazing conversation last week with someone who has not launched a product because of a few misconceptions. In this episode, I share four things that your product does not have to be.
Send me a voice message 👉 https://yfdp.show/share
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep31
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In this episode, Paul shares how he uses his email list, validation, pre-selling and a community approach to creating and selling digital products.
Paul is a designer and content creator who is fuelled by a passion for education. In fact, his drive to educate has led him to create a thriving YouTube channel and community called WPTuts, where he shares all of his free content. But his journey doesn't end there. Recently, he’s taken on the exciting challenge of creating digital products, and it's been a truly eye-opening experience. This new endeavor has unlocked a world of possibilities and has only ignited his passion even further.
Check out the books by Pat Flynn.
Find Paul online, visit his YouTube channel, follow him on Facebook, connect on Twitter and check out his documents pack and his courses.
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I created some content in an area of interest for me and it got some traction. Here's the story of how I created some small digital products around it — templates and instructional videos — plus what I've learned.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Episode 10 on my first digital product
- Episode 11 with Kyle Van Deusen
- Reaching your goals with The 12 Week Year
- Episode 13 with Gill Andrews
- Episode 28 with Sara Dunn
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep29
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Sara saw so many wedding professionals blogging incorrectly, so she created a product — a blogging guide. The guide wasn't overly successful because it wasn't a solution to an important problem in the eyes of her audience. Learn how she created her next product based on actual feedback, how it fits into her service offerings and how she's still able to use her first product.
Sara Dunn is a Wedding SEO Specialist for wedding planners, photographers, venues, and other wedding professionals who want their websites to rank higher on Google.
With a knack for making SEO easy to understand, she’s created a unique Wedding SEO Framework that simplifies what it takes to get a wedding business in front of dream clients.
Sara has been featured by Honeybook, Special Events, and NACE. She was named a WeddingPro educator for 2022 and has presented to audiences including WeddingPro, WIPA, Wedding MBA, and Two Bright Lights.
You can learn more about Sara at saradoesseo.com, follow her on Instagram and TikTok and check out her product, 1-Hour SEO.
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In this episode, I share four reasons that you're not marketing your digital product then dive into how you can start marketing again.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Review of the Revenue Growth Habit
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep27
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Nathan Ingram joined me to share how he's able to create products and services for WordPress business owners based on his experiences as an agency owner due to the concept of alignment.
Nathan is the creator of MonsterContracts, battle-tested contracts for WordPress client work. As the founder of >ADVANCE Coaching, Nathan is a Growth Coach for WordPress Business owners, helping them become more successful in their businesses.
You may also have heard Nathan as the Host at iThemes Training where he teaches WordPress and business development topics via live webinar. Based in Birmingham, Alabama, he has been working with clients to build websites since 1995.
You can learn more about Nathan at nathaningram.com, check out MonsterContracts at monstercontracts.com and find his book, Dealing with Problem Clients: Building Fences Around Friendly Monsters on Amazon.
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep26
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Doing something for the first time can be scary. In this episode, I share a few personal experiences and strategies on how you can get support on your journey.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Upcoming YouTube live on Selling Digital Products with Lemon Squeezy
- Send me a voice message
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep25
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In this episode, Karmen Kendrick shares how she's continually experimenting with digital products and how she offers both services and digital products in her business.
Karmen Kendrick is a marketing manager for LearnDash, a leading provider of online course creation and learning management software. With over five years of experience in the field, Karmen brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to her role.
Before joining LearnDash, Karmen worked as a freelancer, offering WordPress web design and digital marketing consulting to various clients. Alongside her role at LearnDash, Karmen helps service professionals and software brands grow revenue by strategizing and implementing go-to-market plans, email marketing, marketing automation, customer journey mapping, website management, and lead generation. With a passion for helping businesses succeed online, Karmen is dedicated to driving growth and engagement for her clients.
Links mentioned in the episode:
- Liz's episode
- Karmen's Twitter Space
- Find Karmen online
- Visit Karmen's shop
- Sign up for Karmen's newsletter, Tips and Tacos
Share a link to this episode 👉 https://yfdp.show/ep24
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In this episode, I talk about how I use The 12 Week Year framework to make progress on important goals in my life, a huge disruption that I'm currently experiencing and thoughts on how you can get back to making progress on your own important goals.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Upcoming YouTube live on Selling Digital Products with Lemon Squeezy
- The 12 Week Year on Amazon
- My Q2 2023 12 Week Year ClickUp list
- My podcast guesting plan
- Send me a voice message
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Artist Jolene Dames shares her experience creating her first digital product, a house-sitting guide and video from her travels.
Jolene Dames is a self-taught artist who began her career in 1998 when hired at a local theater with no formal artistic training. She went on to work as a scenic artist painting sets for theater, television, and films such as The Avengers, The Dark Knight Rises, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. During these two decades in the industry, Dames has developed herself as a set designer, charge artist and on set painter among other prestigious titles.
Concurrently Dames has committed the past 28 years of her life as an artist in her own right specializing in large-scale paintings. Dames is inspired based on the concept of navigation- literally and figuratively. She has an unrelenting curiosity for the true north in both dimensions. Although painting is her primary outlet, Jolene also documents her world travel via art, writing & moving images into a visual storytelling series.
Find Jolene on her website, jolenedames.com. Follow her on Instagram @jolenedames. And check out her product, A Real Life House Sitting Video & House Sitting Guide [ Video + PDF ].
Learn more about working with me 1:1 to launch your product. DM me SHEET on Twitter or LinkedIn to get the Google Sheet mentioned in the episode.
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A few weeks ago I was on Instagram and saw an ad that read, “My online course made nearly 200K in 1 year completely on autopilot with 0 audience.”
I don't think this is a realistic goal for most people, so in this episode I share three realistic goals for your first digital product.
🔗 Episode 10 on my first failed digital product https://yfdp.show/ep10
🔗 Episode 11 with Kyle Van Deusen https://yfdp.show/ep11
🔗 Episode 1 with Liz Fetchin https://yfdp.show/ep1
🔗 Episode 9 with Sara Loretta https://yfdp.show/ep9
Send me a voice message 👉 https://yfdp.show/share
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In this episode, I use my four reflection questions to recap season 1. What happened? What didn’t go well? What did go well? What can you try next time?
- Episode 10
- How are you experimenting in your business?
- The results of my 90 day social media experiment
- Joe’s content flywheel
- Send me a voice message
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Typically I interview people who have launched digital products, but in this episode, I talk with Hans Skillrud about protecting yourself and your digital product with policies.
Hans is the cofounder of Termageddon, overseeing agency partnerships and growth. He's a former owner of a 12-person web design agency and has had experience both buying and selling agencies prior to running Termagedon full time. When not working, you can find Hans in his garage doing some (amateur) woodworking or programing arduinos to automate his house.
On the show, we discuss:
- The three policies you need – privacy, terms and disclaimers
- The importance of having plain language policies
- Having customers agree to terms with a checkbox
- How to properly use copyright dates
- How to handle refunds, the three ways to create policies and MVPs
- Gumroad and other third-party platforms
- Digital product subscriptions
- Having policies that reflect what you're actually doing right now, not your vision for later
The three policies you need are:
- Terms – The rules for your products or services. Information on use, refunds, cancellations, returns, etc. DMCA information should be included with your terms.
- Privacy Policies – What information you collect from users and what you do with that information.
- Disclaimers – If you have affiliate links, or certain types of information (health/fitness, legal or financial).
In Gumroad, you can add a custom field for terms and add the link to where your terms live.
Check out the Termageddon website and find Hans on Twitter.
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Today I share a story about being overwhelmed finding a place for brunch, plus knowing yourself and knowing your audience.
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Emily shares her digital product experiments including a Mailchimp course that she didn't launch, paid workshops with replays and email templates. Together, we brainstorm some ideas on how she can scale back the expectations of herself and her products.
Emily is a Mailchimp Pro Partner and has been working with brands and clients for the last 8 years to grow their business with email marketing. Emily is based outside of Chicago and has 3 little ones!
On the show, Emily and I discuss:
- The course that Emily tried to create and how she quickly got overwhelmed
- Trying out paid workshops and selling email templates
- Selling on your website vs. on a separate store like Etsy or Gumroad
- Always marketing your product and creating evergreen content
- Creating a series of videos vs. a traditional linear course
- Creating a free mini course to use to market
- The pressures of a course and the benefits of live videos
- Emily's audience and the importance of defining one
- Ideas on packaging products for a specific audience
- The 1:1 training calls Emily offers and how she might maximizing the calls by offering group packages
- Ideas about how to price new offerings
- Finding the time and considering a "beta" program
- You don't need to offer every single thing and the benefits of simplicity
- Emily's advice for new creators
Find Emily at Westfield Creative, Instagram, Twitter and on Gumroad.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Episode 3 with Joe Casabona
- Episode 4 on why I don't recommend courses
- Send me a voice message
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Today let’s talk about four common reasons you’re REALLY procrastinating on your first digital product.
Links mentioned in the show 👉
- Episode 2
- Eisenhower Matrix
- Email about creating a clear plan
- Resources
- Send me a message
- Send me a voice message
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Kristen Ricupero, a business and personal financial coach, had more leads coming her way than she could handle. That, coupled with an even larger demand due to covid, led her to create her first signature course, Path to Profitability. Learn how she created a big course, then some smaller offerings after the fact.
Kristen is a business & personal financial coach & who specializes in helping small business owners and entrepreneurs develop and strengthen their money management skills, eliminate debt, and create cash flow systems to maximize profit and ultimately build wealth. By developing specific action plans that are tailored to each client’s needs, values, and goals, it allows them to live and retire in ways they only thought they could dream. Kristen is a Master Financial Coach, Certified Profit First Coach, and recipient of the Pittsburgh Professional Women 2021 Influential Leadership Award.
Kristen is fueled by her passion to help others succeed, make impact in their communities and become financially free. In her spare time, she is an avid runner and lifter. She lives in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, PA with her husband and two children.
In this episode, Kristen and I discuss:
- Her first digital product, Path to Profitability
- How her product is for people who aren't ready for a 1:1 commitment
- Building on the Profit First framework, plus mistakes Kristen made
- The customer transformation
- What's next for people who have finished the course, including Kristen's membership
- The ladder and Kristen's philosophy
- Wanting to serve more people who came along (plus more mistakes Kristen made)
- How she actually created the course
- Beta testing and feedback
- What Kristen learned and what she would have done differently
- The Small Biz Starter Bundle, plus her ebooks and lead magnets
- Leveraging an existing book, Profit First
- What Kristen recommends for people creating their first digital product
Find Kristen and her offerings at financialfitnesscoaching.com and follow her on Instagram.
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In this episode, I share five tips on how to meet your audience where they are (instead of where you are).
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Gill Andrews is a conversion copywriter and web consultant who helps small and medium businesses turn their underperforming websites into slick lead-generating machines. When she’s not writing copy or auditing websites, she’s blogging on her website Gillandrews.com teaching other business owners—especially those who take care of their websites themselves—how to make their websites work better.
In this episode, Gill and I talk about:
- The story of her first book, how it “decided to start with her” and how her audience asked her to create it
- How your first digital product can come from something you’ve already created on your website or social media
- Her belief and passion about the content plus the small actionable tips that are so valuable for people
- The course she’s been working on, Business Soul Searching — a DIY course on finding your value proposition and building the foundation for your messaging
- The checklists she started creating after her book and before she started working on her course
- How she’s a self-proclaimed “lazy bum” and doesn’t do anything without planning and figuring out how to maximize her efforts
- Her philosophy of getting people to open their wallets to remove the mental barrier people have to paying her money, plus how her checklists are priced very low
- Marketing — her best lead magnets are still free because growing her email list is important and her conversion rate is about 4%
- Intimidation — removing blocks from your mind to launch a digital product, how everyone is intimidated by the technical side of things, the relief and pride she felt when she launched the products and how you can learn from products that tank
- The PayPal plugin she uses to sell her product
- Her step by step process in Excel that shows her progress
- Perfectionism and anxiety — telling the voice in your head that you’re too busy to listen to it and realizing that there’s no such thing as perfection
- Her two audiences — people who become her clients, plus the DIY crowd and how her BSS course will help the latter. Check out episode 8 on audiences
- Testing and experimentation — sharing a few early lectures in a group setting, spoon-feeding questions instead of giving people a long questionnaire that might be overwhelming, asking the group about having a forum
- How she’ll structure the offer — as a standalone course because she’s introverted, but having feedback for the first round to make sure customers understand the material properly
- How the course is a lot of work and her smaller products (checklists/templates) were less. Check out episode 4 on why you shouldn’t create a course as your first digital product
- Her philosophy on starting small, building your confidence and learning more about your audience
- Giving very thorough answers to questions, but questioning herself to make sure she’s not overwhelming people
- Needing to do the course even though it’s scary because this is how she’ll learn and move forward
- The direction of her business and artificial intelligence
- Gill's advice
Find Gill at gillandrews.com, on Twitter, LinkedIn and YouTube, check out her book, find her checklists and get course updates.
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In this episode, I take a step back and share my definition of a digital product, including two important characteristics.
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In this episode, Kyle talks about how his digital products are solutions to problems he’s had in his own business.
Born in California and raised in Texas, Kyle Van Deusen is a husband and proud father of three. After spending 15 years as a graphic designer and earning a business degree, Kyle launched OGAL Web Design in 2017, The Admin Bar community with Matt Sebert in 2018, and Docket WP with Andre Gagnon in 2020.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Kyle’s first digital product, the Website Owner’s Manual (WOM) and why he created it
- Its origins as a lead magnet — how it didn’t have a ton of downloads, but once he put a price on it, interest spiked
- How pricing can be an indicator for people of value
- The strategy behind his product — informing clients but also getting them to purchase maintenance plans
- Helping his peers by sharing the solutions he has to his own agency problems and how we’re not actually competitors
- His ongoing marketing strategy including Black Friday sales, podcast guesting and inclusion in his welcome sequence and other email templates
- Experimentation with coupons and how he sees an uptick in sales when there is a coupon
- How his Prospect Pipeline Challenge is a lot of work for people, how it doesn’t sell as well and thoughts on quick wins and gamification
- A book recommendation — How to Become a Rainmaker
- Kyle’s User Profiles Worksheet, a worksheet he uses with his own clients and the importance of keeping things simple
- Additional thoughts on pricing — global audiences and parity pricing, having a higher price to get people invested
- Handling support requests on his products and how he handles too many questions
- Having a refund policy and having email scripts to handle people who abuse the policy
- Showcasing his products by sharing his instructional videos on his sales pages
- Thoughts about client work, physical products and digital products
- What happened after having success with his first digital product
- Thoughts on additional digital products — keeping his mind open to opportunities, listening to his audience, making sure it’s something he’s not only interested in but can do a good job with
- What an amazing feeling it is to sell digital products
- What Kyle recommends for people creating their first digital product
Find Kyle at kylevandeusen.com and check out his products at theadminbar.com/products.
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In this episode, I share all the details of my first digital product, a mini-course on asking for and using testimonials in your service business. I use my basic, 4-step reflection process including what happened, what didn't go well, what did go well and what I can try next time.
Send me a voice message
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Learn how Sara listened to her audience and built an amazing product, plus how she continues to get feedback and make changes to serve her customers better.
Sara Loretta is the 10th Certified Notion Consultant in the US, and for the past decade has made it her mission to help freelancers evolve into badass CEOs using strategic processes through her SYSTMS™ Method. When she's not building for others, you can find her on Twitter and YouTube sharing spicy takes on the freelance space.
In this episode, Sara and I talk about:
- Sara’s background and the YouTube video that started it all
- How she created her first digital product, Notion for Designers, by making templates out of a client project
- How her second digital product, Notion for Agencies, came to be
- Becoming a certified Notion consultant and serving designers who are forgotten in the productivity world
- What happened when sales plateaued, how she asked people who bought it for feedback and what she learned
- How her third digital product, a Notion subscription, was born out of delivering too much (more than her customers needed)
- Why it’s important to Sara to say yes to things
- The downfall most creators have (spending too much time and not getting any validation)
- The agreement she has with her team that if it cannot be thought of, completely built out and marketed within a week, they don't focus on it
- Testing her annual mapping workshop as a live stream on her YouTube channel and what she did after it went well
- How she is now focused on building her newsletter and how she makes her clients cry (good tears) because they change and evolve after working with her
- The change in her business from branding and design to going all in on Notion, software, automation and tech
- Why she launched a membership and wanting to serve more people
- Her thoughts on what a digital product should be and how you can find one in what you’re already doing
- Why capturing emails is so important and why you should email people
- Asking a trusted group of people for feedback and being open to it
- How mindset is so important — the abundance mindset, thoughts on competition and having the right money mindset that won’t hold you back
- Sara’s advice for creating your first digital product — audit what you have, take time without screens, think about your commitment to it, go to your audience and talk to them and don’t take anything don’t take it personally. Also edit, audit, ship and see what happens
- Her thoughts on if your digital product doesn’t sell
Find Sara on Twitter or YouTube and check out SYSTMS™ OS.
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Today let’s talk about the audience for your first digital product.
- Episode 5 with Erin Flynn
- Send me a voice message
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Learn the mistakes that Alastair made with his first digital product, plus how he recommends that experts market and position themselves for success.
Alastair McDermott helps “best-kept secret” experts & consultants to rapidly build authority by combining the power of video & podcasting so that you can command premium fees, cherry-pick the best projects, get off the gilded-hamster wheel of hourly-rate work, and never have to suffer a bad-fit client again!
Alastair is an author, consultant & business coach who hosts The Recognized Authority Podcast, The Specialization Podcast, and the Accelerating Your Authority Podcast.
On the show, Alastair and I discuss:
- His first digital product — a “how to build a WordPress website” course in 2010
- The mistakes he made — not having enough validation, not having an MVP and not having a niche
- What he tried to make the product work — including a sales video, blogging, pricing experimentation and ads, but how he didn’t have a strategy
- What he learned from the experience — how positioning his product within one industry would have been so much better and why
- His thoughts on his lead magnet — how it was essentially planning (which is not sexy or something that people want to do). He found that the people who dove in quickly and didn’t do much planning enjoyed the course more. And how it would have been better to give people a quick win at the start
- Writing a book — when you’re an expert, it can be easier and quicker to put content together, how you also learn more when you create content around it and how you should be genuine, helpful and passionate about your content
- How the book fits on Alastair’s ladder — what his business model looks like now, how your product can be a paid lead magnet and how having a book on a topic instantly gives you credibility
- How to get people to buy from you — having people get to know you, how audio-only can generate more trust in the mind of the listener, plus content repurposing and experimentation
- His advice for people creating their first digital product — validate the market with strangers who aren’t inherently rooting for you, build an audience by creating something that gathers people into your orbit and just start (everyone starts at the beginning)
Listen to The Recognized Authority podcast, check out Alastair’s other podcasts and find Alastair’s book, 33 Ways Not to Screw Up Your Business Podcast.
In the episode we also talked about Alastair’s episode with Anne Janzer, Nathan Barry’s Authority book packages, Blair Enn’s Pricing Creativity book packages and podcast vs. video.
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In this episode, I talk about how less can end up being so much more, plus 5 strategies for getting your first digital product launched.
- Episode 3 with Joe Casabona
- Episode 2
- Send me a voice message
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Learn how Erin has experimented with various types of products — templates, workshops, memberships, courses - plus her successes and failures along the way.
Erin Flynn is the founder of Out of Office Entrepreneur, where she helps creative entrepreneurs systematize and automate their businesses so that they can spend more time out of office.
After starting her own business in 2012 and finding that she was glued to her computer 24/7, Erin started simplifying and systematizing her business. Now, Erin runs a 6-figure business and works just 10-hour weeks (without a team!), and wants to help other creative entrepreneurs do the same.
On the show, Erin and I discuss:
- Her first product — a series of email templates for sticky client situations and how it’s still her best selling product
- Why her product was so successful — it solved a very specific problem very quickly for people and people understood it at a glance
- Expecting change — your product does not have to be perfect from the beginning. Iteration is totally okay!
- Her subsequent digital products — how they were harder to understand and didn’t do as well. The more you have to help people understand your product, the more marketing you’ll have to do
- How Erin used workshops to grow — they were free live and the replay with lifetime access was paid (and how those were an early iteration of what’s in her course now)
- Being known can be really powerful marketing — and specializing your product is a great way to do that. You can generalize later when different audiences start asking!
- The mistakes she made — trying to have two audiences (her web design business and her product business, selling to her peers), not trying to sell to her existing clients (with an add-on)
- Her experience with AppSumo — how they do a lot of the marketing for you. They can be good for lower-ticket items and can be a lead-in to your other products. Get them on your list and nurture them. (Read her post about AppSumo)
Find Erin at outofofficeentrepreneur.com, check out her Say What email templates and connect with her on Twitter and Instagram.
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Learn how Liz built her audience, got help with her first product and had a successful first launch that she can now promote going forward.
Liz Fetchin owns two businesses: Elm Ink, a media relations consulting agency which specializes in supporting nonprofits and small businesses, and Octofree, which is focused on providing beautiful, relatable recipes and other content to people with food allergies, intolerances and other dietary restrictions.
On the show, Liz and I talk about:
- How hard it was to create — she already had all of the assets for her first digital product, which made creating it much easier, but even though she thought the product would be an easy lift, it ended up being a larger project and taking longer than she anticipated
- What’s helpful — having a built-in launch date (like before a holiday), identifying your skillset and getting help in other areas + having a goal for your product
- Additional benefits — what can come out of a digital product launch beyond sales — an increase in social media followers, an increase in the size of her email list and a great feeling!
- Marketing — how building urgency by creating a certain time period where your product is on sale, which of her five sales emails were the most successful and how she gathered reviews ahead of time by giving out copies for free
- Audience building — how Liz built her audience slowly over time by having a good lead magnet, posting on her website weekly, posting on social media 3 times/week plus partnering with other local, like-minded businesses
- Instagram — the super easy way that Liz uses interesting Instagram stories to promote her email list
- Feedback — how what you think people will want from you and what they will actually want from you are different
- What’s next for Liz and her tips on creating your first digital product
Find Liz on her website at octofree.com, subscribe to her email list, visit her shop and follow her on Instagram.
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Learn how Joe pivoted based on audience feedback and how his new product not only helps customers but his 1:1 clients, too.
Joe Casabona is a podcast producer and coach who helps people grow their podcasts into five-figure businesses. He does that through expert-tested systems that come with 10 years experience podcasting, 15 years teaching, and over 20 years working the web. You can learn more about him at podcastliftoff.com.
On the show, we talk about:
- Joe’s first (not-so-successful) product — a self-paced, text-based course on how to start a WordPress blog, why it wasn’t successful and what he did with it
- Creating content — on YouTube, finding a problem and an audience, having good timing, plus why getting feedback from buyers is crucial
- His playbook — packaging content for “just-in-time learning” as an alternative to a traditional, linear course; how having hands-on work will increase what your customers learn and the playbook being perfect for coaching clients and non-coaching clients alike
- Product ladders — finding your main product and then creating a product ladder, how he’s working on a book called The Profitable Podcast which will be the bottom rung on his ladder and how each item can have “good, better, best” pricing
- Thoughts — why you should be careful what you promise in terms of updates and how you shouldn’t promise free updates for life, make sure your update cycle aligns with your pricing method aligns with your messaging and don’t answer questions people aren’t asking because that’s when you start to handcuff yourself
- Plus Joe’s advice to you (and his past self) on creating your first digital product
Check out Joe’s special offer for listeners of this show and find Joe on LinkedIn.
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In this episode, I talk about why Mondays are the perfect day to work on your digital product (and how to actually make it happen).
- Strides
- Check out the blog post
- Send me a voice message
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In this episode, I talk about why you shouldn’t create a course as your first digital product (and what you should do instead).
- Fill out the quick course survey
- Send me a voice message
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Welcome to Episode 0 of Your First Digital Product. In this episode, we're going to talk about who this show is for, what to expect from the show and my philosophy around digital products and business (and life, because really it's all the same).
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