Finding Normal: Life after Spiritual Trauma: Recent Episodes
Chris & Rachel Knobil
We invite you to join our journey to re-discovering God and Christianity in the wake of traumatic religious experiences.
A very short episode - thoughts inspired by a song...
on YouTube: https://youtu.be/ETC85CgzTHM?si=IVQK0dxc12Us_4g9
on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/2UHK8agSYWJUzMuQTPMCVq
We discuss why transition out of the IFB feels like living in a foreign culture, IFB social hierarchy and potential inbreeding, with background music by Poppy the guinea pig.
CD Code: MUSICEPISODE24
We finally tackle a much requested topic - Christian Music. So many rules, so little sense. So what music is ok - and why do Christians make up so many rules about it?
Recommended Resources:
Postmodern Jukebox
Our CD - discount code: MUSICEPISODE24
A number of people in the Deconstructing/Advocate community read this situation shockingly wrong. So what's really going on?
This is a very heavy and long episode, but we felt it couldn't really be any shorter without leaving out anything important.
Recommended Resource:
The War of Return
Helpful links and resources:
Buzzwords Info Sheet
Israel: A Simple Guide by Noa Tishby
Roots Metals / Debbie Lechtman
Unpacking Israeli History
Hen Mazzig
Amanda (on TikTok)
Lizzy Savetsky
Meira Cowland
Political Jew
Yoseph Haddad
Honest Reporting
The Quad (YouTube series)
Emily Schrader
We discuss the toxic IFB teachings on "purity" and how it is destructive, harmful, and not even close to the truth. Once you start really examining it, the evangelical view of sex is quite disturbing.
Resources:
Bare Marriage
She Deserves Better
Andrew Bauman
God Made All of Me
X-Spot
Good Pictures, Bad Pictures
Anatomy for Kids
5 Myths Article by Dr. Camden Morgante
On Elizabeth Eliot's terrible Courtship
Awful TGC article
The Purity Hoax by Jonathan Poletti
TGC Background FAQS on Purity Culture
Our previous episodes on courtship
We explore something we have noticed - when people recognize and reject legalism and think that they have somehow arrived at a new and better Christianity. But it isn't enough and we discuss why.
Resources:
Rebecca Davis' Blog - HeresTheJoy.com
The Unvarnished Truth Podcast
Untwisting Scriptures Books 1-4
A discussion on how financial teaching and practices in abusive churches affect the lives of those under them - for years.
Recommended Resource: Pagan Christianity
Other links:
Reporting on Franklin's Graham's behavior
More about Faith Promise
The Naked Bible Podcast on Melchizedek
Our Instagram profile
We discuss why we longer attend and institutional church, why it's good to take a break from church, and what "church" actually is (despite what we think of).
Resources:
Broken Trust by F. Remy Diederich
Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
Heiser on Hebrews 10:25 - Naked Bible Podcast
Bare Marriage episode on Grooming
58 to 0 by Jon Zens
Jesus Storybook Bible
Meredith Anne Miller
The Garden, the Curtain, and the Cross
24 Family Ways
Books on Trauma Triggers: 1) The Body Keeps the Score (TW), 2) The Deepest Well, 3) Trauma and Recovery
Wolfbane Books
Interview about Pastors and Burnout
Roys Report Interview about Healing from Abusive Churches
We share our thoughts and analysis of Jinger Duggar's recent book. What's good, the import context of the book, what's bad, and what's missing.
Recommended Resources:
Untwisting Scriptures, Book 1 by Rebecca Davis
Untwisting Scriptures, Book 3 by Rebecca Davis
Quiverfull by Kathryn Joyce
Documentation of articles mentioned in the episode
TW: Discussion of Child Abuse, Death of a Pet, Suicidal Thoughts
We talk with Olivia about her experience growing up under an abusive, narcissistic mother while under the influence of a toxic, abusive IFB "church" cult under a very controlling and untrustworthy pastor. We also talk with her about how she escaped, the honest struggles of her journey out, and how she has become a voice and advocate for others who grew up in the same cult-like church.
Olivia's Instagram: olivia_thedoula
Olivia's Facebook: Olivia Olds
Book - Feeling Great by Burns
Analysis of Debi Pearl's book Created to Be His Helpmeet. In which we refrain from reading inappropriate quotes from the book (mostly), dismiss Rachel's awkward college homemaking class, and reflect on why we don't like happy people.
Resources:
Interview with Cynthia Westphall on the Bare Marriage podcast
Codependency episode on The Best of You with Alison Cook
Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible by Mary DeMuth
Tricia Robinson painting "The Four"
Sarah McDugal
Bare Marriage (Sheila Gregoire)
Quiverfull by Kathryn Joyce
Sins of the Amish series on Peacock
Overthinkers Podcast with Dr. Dru Johnson - Should We Read the Bible Literally?
We discuss what the Bible teaches about spanking children and how scripture has been twisted to defend certain cultural ideas. We also delve into the history of spanking a bit to see where the idea of disciplining children that way came from.
Resources and Documentation:
Corporal Punishment in the Bible by William Webb
Thy Rod and They Staff They Comfort Me by Samuel Martin
Heartfelt Discipline by Clay Clarkson
Janet Lansbury and Unruffled
Families Where Grace Is in Place by Jeff VanVonderan
Transforming Toddlerhood with Devon Kuntzman
No-Drama Discipline by Dan Siegal and Tina Bryson
Web Articles of the History of Spanking
Spanking-related articles from Bare Marriage: 1) https://baremarriage.com/2020/08/what-does-the-research-say-about-spanking/ 2) https://baremarriage.com/2022/12/spanking-teaches-kids-love-should-hurt/
Pages from BCM class notes teaching Spanking
Other Resources:
Desperate by Sally Clarkson and Sarah Mae
Lifegiving Parent by Sally Clarkson
Different by Sally Clarkson
We discuss a variety of modern patriarchal movements and teachers. The final episode in our patriarchy series.
Examples of False teaching:
Created to be His Helpmeet by Debbi Pearl
Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs
Documentation of Piper's abuse and support of abuse:
https://baremarriage.com/2022/06/john-piper-tells-women-with-harsh-husbands-to-basically-do-nothing/
https://baremarriage.com/2022/06/podcast-why-john-piper-should-stop-talking-about-marriage/
Helpful Resources:
Quiverfull by Kathryn Joyce
Article about Adoption by Kathryn Joyce
No Will of My Own by Jon Zens
Untwisting Scriptures: Book 2 by Rebecca Davis
We talk with Rebecca Davis about her newest book - Untwisting Scriptures Book 4: Wolves, Hypocrisy, Sin Leveling, and Righteousness. It's a really good one! Get the book here: https://a.co/d/3NQ2trQ
We delve deep into the history of where modern patriarchy finds its roots. Since it isn't from the Bible where did it come from?
The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Barr: https://amzn.to/3xcPDjQ
The Other Half Podcast
Interview with Beth Barr on Theology in the Raw
The Bare Marriage Podcast
Quiverfull by Kathryn Joyce
Cult of Domesticity Articles:
https://www.thoughtco.com/cult-of-domesticity-4694493
https://americainclass.org/the-cult-of-domesticity/
https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-21st-century-cult-of-domesticity
We discuss the origins of Halloween and whether you can take your kids trick-or-treating. Has the church told the truth about Halloween?
Books:
Trick or Treat: The History of Halloween
The Book of Hallowe'en
Podcast Episodes
about Samhain: https://peeranormal.com/podcast/peeranormal-18-samhain-and-halloween/
About Witch hunts:https://www.historyextra.com/period/stuart/witch-hunters-podcast-marion-gibson/
About Salem: https://www.historyextra.com/podcast-series/salem-witch-trials-history-podcast-series/
Articles:
About Halloween: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Halloween
In this two part interview we have a conversation with Justin about his new book and his experience in the IFB. Trigger Warning: Sexual Abuse
Justin's Book: Sheltered but Not Protected
In this two part interview we have a conversation with Justin about his new book and his experience in the IFB. Trigger Warning: Sexual Abuse
Justin's Book: Sheltered but Not Protected
We explore the question of women in church leadership, and why that is one of the things that scares complementarians.
Recommended Resource: Paul and Gender by Cynthia Westfall
Interview with Complementarian Professor on Theology in the Raw
Marg Mowczko's Blog: https://margmowczko.com/margs-articles/
We discuss the differences between Complementarianism and Patriarchy. Is it really any better, or is it just a different name for the same thing?
Links:
CBE Website: https://www.cbeinternational.org/
Episode from The Church Split: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/the-church-split-ep-51---gender-roles
Searching Together Website: https://www.searchingtogether.org/
Webb's book on Women, etc.: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0830815619/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_8MH8W94GT7CH4B3X3Y4H
Untwisting Scriptures. book 1: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0998198102/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_AQXHF16J1B1TZWWR0016
In this episode we examine more passages in the New Testament in more depth that may seem to support patriarchy.
Resources:
Heiser on Headcoverings: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-naked-bible-podcast/id961385822?i=1000430050017
What Paul Really Said About Women by John Bristow: https://amzn.to/3xsI3lh
The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Barr: https://amzn.to/3xcPDjQ
What's With Paul and Women by Jon Zens: https://amzn.to/3LLOpzZ
The (now perhaps archived) ThatMom podcast: http://thatmom.com/
What does the Bible actually say about how women should function in the church? Does the so called "Biblical Patriarchy" movement really have a basis in Christianity and the Bible? We start into this discussion with interesting results.
We discuss whether the Old Testament teaches patriarchy, and how it fits in for New Testament believers. Then we get into the life of Jesus and how he treated women...very instructive!
Recommended Resource: Own Your Life by Sally Clarkson: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1414391285/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_2Y9JCH1DT7MBDXVP4P86
Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals by William Webb: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0830815619/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_ER5N9NNBQJ8BKFTPZ2FB
Beginning our study of Patriarchy with the scriptural basis (or lack thereof). We discuss what creation, the fall, and some NT passages that discuss them show us about how God views women.
Recommended Resource: What Paul Really Said About Women by John Bristow: https://amzn.to/3xsI3lh
The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Barr: https://amzn.to/3xcPDjQ
Untwisting Scriptures, Book 3 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3r9zyHA
What's With Paul and Women by Jon Zens: https://amzn.to/3LLOpzZ
Good News for pastors and all believers as we delve into the commonly misused titles and responsibilities often attached to "preachers" in the church.
Recommended Resource: 58 to 0 by Jon Zens: https://amzn.to/3ui0NBS
The Roys Report - Bullies in the Pulpit: https://podcasts.apple.com/sr/podcast/bullies-in-the-pulpit/id1470242499?i=1000541368812
In this episode we examine a book that calls out some of the errors in IFB churches. Unfortunately it falls a bit short...
4-Freedom podcast on Baptist Successionism: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/17-baptist-successionism-part-1-baptist-distinctives/id1517878135?i=1000493233283
Sermon Series "How We Got our Bible": https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=tri-city&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=How+We+Got+Our+Bible
Mentioned Instagram Accounts: @doubtersdiary, @thechristianadvocate
The "Umbrella of Protection" is one of the most pervasive false teachings on authority. Popularized by Bill Gothard in his materials it spread throughout the IFB and Homeschool movements. For more detailed information about the harm Gothard and his organization have done go to https://www.recoveringgrace.org/
Recommended Resource: Untwisting Scripture Book 2 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3glfFHE
Other Resources:
58 to 0 by John Zens: https://amzn.to/34zcCJf
We experienced this "repackaged" version of Gothard's teaching first hand at Youth Development Camp (YDC) while serving as counselors to young people from Falls Baptist Church. Based on the same misuse of scripture, but we got to see some of the ugly realities when this false teaching is used.
Recommended Resource: Untwisting Scriptures Book 2 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3glfFHE
Other Resources:
Tale of Three Kings by Gene Edwards: https://amzn.to/3gq5aTH
What should we tell our kids about Santa Clause? Is there a place for Santa and Jesus in Christmas celebrations?
Recommended Resources:
https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible-195-is-christmas-a-pagan-holiday/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/should-you-tell-your-kids-santa-claus-is-real/id1510271421?i=1000543253525
https://pambarnhill.com/why-advent/
https://podtail.com/en/podcast/myths-and-legends/18-st-nick-rusty-chains-and-candy-canes/
https://sallyclarkson.com/podcast/2018/12/2/episode-221-keeping-advent-hope-for-a-dark-world-with-malcolm-guite
We have a great time with Rebecca Davis, discussing her books (especially her new release) that examine scriptures that are often misused by abusive churches and Bible teachers.
Recommended Resource: Untwisting Scriptures, Book 3: Your Words, Your Emotions - https://amzn.to/3rpvVhx
Rebecca's Blog: https://heresthejoy.com/
Confusion to Clarity: https://www.confusiontoclaritynow.com/
Called to Peace: https://www.calledtopeace.org/
Heart for Survivors (Rebecca's Charity): https://heresthejoy.com/heart-for-survivors/
Giveaway Link: https://www.instagram.com/p/CW60PyZgRsF/?utm_medium=copy_link
We continue our discussion of what the Bible actually teaches about who has spiritual authority and what that means. This time we focus on the epistles, and particularly some passages that have been misused in order to control people.
- we apologize for the audio quality on some of these episodes, we are working on improving our setup *
The Naked Bible Podcast with Dr. Michael Heiser: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/
Recommended Resources:
The Bible Unfiltered by Michael Heiser: https://amzn.to/2QstGWl
I Dare You Not to Bore Me with the Bible by Michael Heiser: https://amzn.to/3cdKOuG
Untwisting Scriptures, book 2 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3qCNElv
The beginning of a mini-series on the topic of spiritual authority - the misuse of which is one of the foundational errors that leads to spiritual abuse. We give some examples of what it looks like when spiritual authority is misused, and we look at what Jesus taught about spiritual authority.
We talk about our experience with the particular extreme courtship practices of the church we were in. Even more than "typical" courtship practice it's particularly detrimental to faith and relationships both at the time, and in the future.
Rebecca Davis' book on Patriarchy: https://amzn.to/3paofyC
Rebecca Davis' Website: www.HeresTheJoy.com
We discuss the teaching and methodology of courtship in more detail, and it turns out it's not really about faith and spirituality at all - it's about being able to control young people, even in major life decisions.
Podcasts by ThatMom on Patriocentricity:
http://thatmom.com/podcasts/patriarchy-patriocentricity-series/
http://thatmom.com/podcasts/patriarchypatriocentricity-series-two-2010/
Rebecca Davis' book on Patriarchy: https://amzn.to/3paofyC
Rebecca Davis' Website: www.HeresTheJoy.com
We discuss some myths about dating commonly taught by people who teach "courtship" in the IFB. Most people probably date, but in the circles we were in it was taught as wrong, using several of these myths.
We discuss the worst part of our experiences in spiritually abusive churches. "Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist" (George Carlin)
Chris's Letter to BCM in 2019: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10tV0Czw6C1l92zvTxdI_y6rm6qdbz2uC/view?usp=sharing
Rachel's Letter to BCM in 2019: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oJLswM-TkgGLLOcJNDJ_VJYdjhFf_y7i/view?usp=sharing
We share the first part our of story - how we came to be in spiritually abusive churches; but also how we met and were set up to accept an abusive and controlling church/school environment. ...And how Chris got away with breaking rules at college.
We discuss the end results of legalism, as well as whether legalism is really dangerous in isolation. We also discuss the ramifications of legalism, shame, and toxic churches on individual believers.
Recommended Resources:
1. Soul Repair by VanVonderen & Ryan: https://amzn.to/2YUy5Vg
2. Own Your Life by Sally Clarkson: https://amzn.to/2Wn2pKs
3. Desperate by Sarah Mae and Sally Clarkson : https://amzn.to/2M8AFVU
Other books referenced in this episode:
Toxic Faith by Arterburn & Felton: https://amzn.to/2WvRuxS
Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen: https://amzn.to/2K8aBrj
Families Where Grace is in Place by Jeff VanVonderen: https://amzn.to/2Wn0plq
We examine a specific kind of toxic environment, termed a "shame-based system" by Jeff VanVonderen in his book Tired of Trying to Measure Up. We talk about how to recognize whether a church, family, or work environment is based on causing shame, and a little bit of how to deal with it.
Recommended Resource: Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen: https://amzn.to/2K8aBrj
Book on Anger by Gary Chapman: https://www.amazon.com/Anger-Powerful-Emotion-Gary-Chapman/dp/0802413145/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=anger+chapman&qid=1630271076&sr=8-2
In this episode we discuss why people become legalists, even though it's a miserable way to live. We also talk about how legalism is related to spiritual abuse.
Recommended Resource: Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue: https://amzn.to/2WbMijt
Other Resources:
Broken Trust by F. Remy Diederich: https://amzn.to/2WqmuiR
Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderan: https://amzn.to/2K8aBrj
Podcast by Dr. Michael Heiser on headcoverings in the Bible: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible-86-the-head-covering-of-1-corinthians-1113-15/
We discuss what Legalism is and how to recognize it. We also look at examples of legalism from the Bible, church history, and modern religious contexts.
Recommended Resource: https://libertyforcaptives.com/2015/03/11/30-signs-of-legalism-a-checklist/
Other Resources mentioned:
Healing from Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue: https://amzn.to/2WbMijt
Books from Nathaniel Hawthorne dealing with abusive religion: The Scarlet Letter, "Young Goodman Brown", and "The Minister's Black Veil"
What do we mean by "spiritual trauma"? We talk about our background, how we became aware of spiritual abuse, and the basics of how to recognize high control groups and toxic leaders in religious and family settings.
Characteristics of High Control Systems: http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with-cults/
Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue: https://amzn.to/2WbMijt
Broken Trust by F. Remy Diederich: https://amzn.to/2WqmuiR