Black Men Unlearning: Recent Episodes
Black Men Unlearning
Kyle Brooks and Edwin Lee invite you on a journey to unlearn the ideologies, thought patterns and habits that get in the way of peace, freedom and joy! Follow the podcast on IG (@BlackMenUnlearning) and Twitter (@BlackMenUnlearn) and contact the hosts at blackmenunlearning@gmail.com.
On this episode of BMU, the guys offer their critiques of capitalism’s effect on the Juneteenth holiday before diving into a nuanced conversation about the Caitlin Clark discourse. The conversation begins with harsh critique of some of the foremost male voices in sports media and their lack of understanding and study regarding the complex dynamics associated with Clark’s meteoric rise. The guys discuss those dynamics, offering pathways for us to legitimately regard Clark’s talent and stardom without succumbing to the racist, misogynoir, anti-LGBTQIA, and capitalist ways of thinking that would require us to tear down other players within the majority-Black and distinctly queer-identifying WNBA in the process.
The guys also announce the inaugural BMU Summer Book Club in which we’re reading All About Love: New Visions by bell hooks (1999) andThe Fire Next Time by James Baldwin (1963). The first and second halves of All About Love will be discussed on our July 4th and 18th episodes, respectively. The Fire Next Time will be discussed in the same two-part fashion on episodes released on August 1st and 15th.
Today’s episode referencesForty Million DollarSlaves by William C. Rhoden (2007).
CONTENT WARNING
This episode includes discussion of self-harm. Please feelfree to not engage with the episode if this subject matter is not in alignment with where you are in your journey right now. It’s ok to take care of yourself.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the mental health crisis we’re facing in the United States and the particular challenges Black men face in dealing with mental health crises. Their discussion evaluates the limits of our strength and intelligence in dealing with our most difficult issues, when we learn we’re not allowed to cry or emote, and the challenges associated with determining how much and when we can lean on each other.
“It’s so hard to forget pain, but it’s even harder to remember sweetness. We have no scar to show for happiness.” – Chuck Palahniuk
“we are each other’s
harvest:
we are each other’s
business:
we are each other’s
magnitude and bond.” – Gwendolyn Brooks, an excerpt from “Paul Robeson”
Mental Health Resources:
If you are considering suicide or are in emotional distress,consider using the National Suicide Lifeline: Dial 988 or 1-800-784-2433
talkspace.com: Talkspace users have access to licensed therapists through the website or mobile app on iOS and Android.
betterhelp.com: BetterHelp is a mental health platform that provides direct online counseling and therapy services via web or phone text communication.
On this episode of BMU, the guys celebrate the 3rd year of BMU with the first women to join the podcast, their friends Kyra Jones and Jonee Perry. The group discusses the nuances of platonic friendships between straight men and women, the foundations of their beliefs about who gets to be friends, and their models for friendship between men and women. The episode includes stories about their parents' responses to their early interest in relationships, the pitfalls of their socialization around college being a place to meet a life partner, and Tom Thumb weddings (LOL).
On this episode of BMU, the guys explore our romanticization of relationships and how those narratives fail us in practice. They revisit the foundations of what they learned about seeking relationships from elders as young men, consider how media shaped their expectations of how relationships would play out in their lives, and detail the internal work we all need to do to show up well in relationship.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss Black rage in thecontext of James Baldwin’s famous quote, “to be a Negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost all of the time…” Their discussion probes the value of rage, our desire to dispel rage without offering it legitimacy, and what it means to accept that folks have a right to be angry. They explore the distance between American culture’s response to Black andwhite rage, the need for joy amidst the rage, and share their favorite Baldwin quotes. The show takes a hilarious turn with the surprise return of “Really, Bruh?”
“Billy Porter on race, recognition, and the Middle East” (The Guardian)
“The Negro in American Culture” Radio Interview (1961)
Black Rage by William H. Grier and Price M. Cobbs
Edwin references the killing of Rayshard Brooks by AtlantaPolice (Wikipedia)
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the dangers ofdisconnecting ourselves from our emotions. They consider the ways we learn that our emotions aren’t worthy of time and attention and how much of our orientation to our emotional responses is connected to generational grief. The conversation includes reflections on the cost of abandoning empathy, the need for us to bear each other’s burdens, and the critical need for Black men to grasp and practice these more fully human ways of being.
On this episode of BMU, Dr. Derrick Tillman-Kelly joins the podcast to talk about how his identity as a queer Black man has shaped his relationships with straight Black men. The guys discuss the importance of the language used to discuss queer identities and its capacity to create division and undermine queer folks' safety. They also discuss the fallacies of anti-LGBTQ sentiments in the Black community, the foundations of the friendships the three of them share, and revisit the seminal article "Seven Gay Texts: Biblical Passages Used to Condemn Homosexuality" by Robert K. Gnuse to discuss the acceptance (or lack thereof) and experiences of queer people in the church.
On this episode of BMU, the guys contend with the consequences of putting your head down to push through hard things at the expense of trusting how we feel. How do we know when pushing through isn't the answer? How do we know when it’s time to make a change? During the conversation, the guys contend with what moves us to escapism, the coping trap, and the challenge of hearing ourselves.
On this, the 50th episode of BMU, the guys return from their holiday hiatus with a story to tell… well, stories to talk about. Their discussion considers the significance of the narratives we share about ourselves, the narrative structures we value and accept, whose narratives we regard as true, and the trouble of choosing sides when we have limited information. Jonathan Majors’ repeated invocation of Coretta Scott King, Katt Williams’ viral interview, and the protest at Emmanuel AME Church set the backdrop for the conversation.
The discussion references the following podcast episodes:
Pablo Torre Finds Out – “The Whistleblower: Smush Parker Tells His Truth” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWFEMq7prXc
Club Shay Shay – “Katt Williams Unleashed” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRRZiRQxTsZooming With The Homies - "January 4, 2024" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFxyBVjCmfU
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the release of André 3000’s new album, New Blue Sun. They discuss 3000’s anxieties around dropping new raps and their uneasiness about the mixed reactions to the news that NBS would be a flute album. Their conversation considers the implications of our expectations of art and the artists of whom we call ourselves fans, evaluates our entitlement to critique of their work and choices, and explores our relationship with other folks’ freedom as an extension of our conceptions of our own.
Andre 3000’s interview with Rick Rubin on the Broken Record Podcast: https://youtu.be/LjHcHTJ8D5k?si=vlS0AvkQKDp3WKa_
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the contradictions they live into when going through seasons of transition. Seasons of focus require discipline that can challenge our ability to balance striving and staying connected. Their discussion explores the challenges with viewing themselves as more than the sum of their accomplishments, and our attempt to balance the truth of the solitude that sometimes comes with working toward our goals with our need for community.
This episode references "Family" by The RH Factor: https://open.spotify.com/track/6Pi2hod3YtmRgeyhWJkcGK?si=2163611046dd4b12
On this episode of BMU, the guys are joined by OlatundeOsinaike, and preview his forthcoming book Tender Headed. Kyle and Edwin offer their impressions of the poetry as Olatunde shares how his experiences brought him to this work. The discussion centers the nuances of masculinity and manhood, being in process, and the overlap of their STEM educations and identities as creatives.
Olatunde Osinaike is a Nigerian-American poet, essayist, and software developer. He is the author of Tender Headed (Akashic Books, 2023), selected by Camille Rankine as winner of the 2022 National Poetry Series.
Tender Headed is available for pre-order prior to its December 5th release date at https://www.akashicbooks.com/catalog/tender-headed/, and can be purchased everywhere thereafter.
On this episode of BMU, the guys welcome the podcast's first guest, Dr. Chris Travers, to discuss the work and nuance of establishing and maintaining friendship as Black men. Using examples from the friendship the three of them share, Kyle, Edwin, and Chris highlight the need to practice vulnerability, deal with our insecurities with honesty, and risk rejection, tension, and conflict to grow the platonic relationships we participate in with other men.
Check out Chris’s company, The Communion Collective on IG: @the_communioncollective
Xavier Dagba’s post on the dangers of trying to design a life without disappointment: https://x.com/Xavierdagba/status/1709999904846704901?s=20
Tricia Hersey’s book, Rest is Resistance: A Manifesto: https://thenapministry.com/
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the rise of Coach Prime and his program at the University of Colorado, asserting that we can both enjoy the entertainment and be critical of his methods. The discussion includes assessments of his time at Jackson State and the rhetoric he used to characterize his experience as he departed, thoughts about the Primetime/Coach Prime persona, and more. An impromptu "Really, Bruh?" considers Mel Tucker's folly.
Forty Million Dollar Slaves by William C. Rhoden: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/141584/forty-million-dollar-slaves-by-william-c-rhoden/
Secretaries of Education, Agriculture Call on Governors to Equitably Fund Land-Grant HBCUs: https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/secretaries-education-agriculture-call-governors-equitably-fund-land-grant-hbcus#:~:text=U.S.%20Secretary%20of%20Education%20Miguel,grant%20peers%20in%20their%20states.
Mel Tucker Fired for Cause: https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38504840/sources-michigan-state-expected-fire-mel-tucker-wed
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the curious connections between romantic relationships and capitalism. Acknowledging that they are no one's relationship experts, they discuss the ways we've woven capitalism into our dating choices and wonder if swiping left and right, dating for marriage, and prioritizing entertainment in relationships are best practices for getting what we say we want. Then, our co-hosts make a special announcement.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss their reasons for moving away from defining themselves as good guys. Their conversation unpacks their past motivations for identifying this way, the fallacies built into the good guy motif, and the ways they ultimately learned to leave that role behind. "Really, Bruh?" considers the value of our reactions to the recent Keke Palmer/Darius Daulton fiasco.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss their beliefs about having game and its value. The discussion considers their earliest experiences with attraction, where and how they learned to get romantic attention from women, and whether game is inherently deceptive. "Really, Bruh?!" returns because the Supreme Court is wildin'.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss their perspectives of aging as Black men in their late thirties. Their discussion includes questions about how our society really feels about getting older, the motivations for our routines and healthy habits, and their thoughts about their own mortality.
*TRIGGER WARNING: Minute 62:00 contains a retelling of a scene from the movie Crash and describes a depiction of sexual assault.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the difficulties we experience moving through and dealing with anger. Their discussion considers how they first learned to engage with their anger, how poorly we're equipped to process it, its usefulness, and share thoughts about learning to handle our anger in community.
On this episode of BMU, the guys share their thoughts about not yet having biological children. Their discussion reviews their socialization to the role of fatherhood in their conceptions of their manhood, pervasive discussions about the importance of time and money in being able to family plan, and how their lives are different than the ones they would have imagined for themselves in their 20s.
On this episode of BMU, the guys celebrate the podcast's second anniversary by going back to the beginning and reflecting on the lessons learned along the way. Kyle and Edwin talk about how the podcast's slow start, their favorite moments, and the things they're yet in the process of unlearning.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss their reactions to the domestic violence allegations against Jonathan Majors. They work through the cultural context of the allegations, the importance of our reactions, our juxtaposition to celebrity, and the difficulties encountered when attempting to respond in a way that builds the kind of world we all want to live in.
On this episode of BMU, the guys discuss the value of selfishness. Their conversation considers how they learned that selfishness was unacceptable, how those lessons grew into "good guy" behavior and its attendant expectations, and they wonder whether selflessness is an ideal we should even aspire to. "Really, Bruh?" is back with a play-by-play of the reactions to a "punch" thrown in the Women's NIT.
On this episode of BMU, the guys answer an email from a listener about forgiveness. Their answer flows into a larger discussion about how we learn the process of forgiveness, navigating conflict in non-avoidant ways, and understanding what motivates us to forgive.
On this episode of BMU, the guys explore the challenges of having hard conversations. They unpack their early experience discussing difficult topics with family and the ways people pleasing can tempt us to embrace false peace and put off healthy conflict. Michael B. Jordan headlines our "Really, Bruh?" segment.
The guys are back with a pre-Valentine's Day discussion about attraction and arousal. This episode considers the difference between the two, whether we should be pursuing one or both, and how our society is designed to bias us toward quick fixes.
In this episode, the guys discuss self-love. Their conversation touches on what self-love looks like in practice and how we can plug into good sources rather than always pouring out. They also answer the popular question of whether we have to learn to love ourselves before we can love others or be loved by others.
The guys close out 2022 with an evaluation of the false dichotomy between logic and feelings. Their discussion includes a breakdown of the societal implications of establishing a binary relationship between logic and feelings, the importance of balancing the two, and a dope real-world example of logic without feeling involving John Coltrane and a robot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjONQNUU8Fg). This week's really bruh focuses on recent hot-takery surrounding Megan Thee Stallion and Brittney Griner.
In this 30th episode (!) of BMU, the guys discuss the shame their upbringings associated with sex and how it shaped their journeys learning about themselves and their desires. The discussion unpacks the problems with Christian instruction around sex, identifies the issues with an "all red flags" approach to sex and sexuality, and highlights some of the real consequences of our commitment to doing things the way we've always done them. Kyle and Edwin share some vulnerable stories about the effects of shame on their own journeys of self-discovery, and open up about the work they're doing to unlearn the belief that their bodies, sex, and sexuality are problems.
In this episode of Black Men Unlearning, the guys sit with the concept of building and leaving legacies. The conversation considers how our egos, the past, present, and future all factor in to how we pursue establishing legacies for ourselves. This week's "Really, Bruh?" addresses the #RecastTChalla trending topic, referencing a conversation between Ta-Nehisi Coates and Ryan Coogler from the first episode of Wakanda Forever: The Official Black Panther Podcast. We highly recommend you check it out.
The discussion also references a previous BMU conversation about the multitudes we contain in EP23: "We Wear the Mask."
The guys discuss Takeoff's untimely death and the sometimes uncomfortable feeling of grieving people we don't know personally. The episode criticizes TMZ's "reporting" and highlights the challenge of making space for grief while pictures and videos of the deaths of Black folks are treated as clickbait and viral content. This week's "Really, bruh?" is dedicated to the Brooklyn Nets.
The guys discuss adulting, particularly as it pertains to the pursuit of lives that bring us joy. The conversation leads to them figuring out when the concept of adulting entered our collective consciousness, and evaluate our beliefs about who is deserving of leisure. This week's "Really, bruh?" wonders where all the crabs have gone.
It's a "Really. bruh?" takeover! Kyle and Edwin extend the segment into an entire episode, taking Kanye (Comrade West) to task, contending with the announcement of the Super Bowl Halftime show and the billionaire status of Rihanna and Jay-Z, taking LeBron to task for his support of Tory Lanez, and discussing Ime Udoka's foolishness.
The show references Bassey Ikpi's "I'm Telling the Truth But I'm Lying," a memoir in which she explores her experiences with bipolar II and anxiety.
The guys talk about the challenges Black men face in maintaining our good health mentally, emotionally, and physically. The conversation includes vulnerable discussions about their own fears around healthcare, battles with loss, challenges with battling COVID, and the importance of rejecting individuality by managing our wellness in community. The episode also includes the debut of BMU's new segment, "Really, bruh?"
In this episode, the guys discuss the fallout from Deshaun Watson's sexual assault cases, and the poor job we do of practicing accountability in our society. The discussion touches on our takeaways from the Me Too movement, our reactions to other assault cases by prominent Black male celebrities, and the lengths to which we'll go to protect our feel-good.
This episode cites reporting by Jenny Vrentas in the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/sports/football/deshaun-watson.html) and an opinion piece on the reactions of Deshaun Watson's teammates by David Dennis Jr. (https://andscape.com/features/why-arent-nfl-players-speaking-out-on-deshaun-watson/).
Warning: This episode of Black Men Unlearning contains adult language.
On this episode of BMU, the guys consider what it means to be authentic and if it is possible to embody multiple authentic expressions of self. The discussion ranges from our use of code switching, social media habits and how we come to understand the multitudes we all contain.
Today's episode references a conversation between Nikki Giovanni and James Baldwin, an excerpt of which can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdR0PVznL4o.
The guys are back and wondering why we spend so much of our lives being in a rush. The episode includes discussion about the where we learn to be in a hurry, the capitalism of it all and what we stand to lose by rushing through our lives.
The guys discuss the Will Smith/Chris Rock altercation and how our perspectives and biases shape our responses. Their discussion considers the importance of the rhetoric used to characterize the conflict, how men's roles as protectors factor in to navigating major boundary violations, and what we can take away from how the situation unfolded in the public sphere.
On episode #20 of BMU, the guys explore their hair journeys, taking it all the way back to barbershops in the 90s. They discuss their first experiences growing their hair out, their families' response to their long hair, society's perception of Black hair and the link between standards of professionalism and white supremacy.
Kyle and Edwin explore what it means to live the good life or at least a good life. The discussion starts with their past perceptions of what pursuits make our lives good, and transitions to evaluating the barriers that stand between us and living/obtaining the good life.
Kyle and Edwin are back with the first new BMU episode of 2022, and they're tired. The episode includes discussions about the forces that conspire to keep us exhausted, making good choices about showing up in for ourselves and others and focusing on what we can control.
Kyle and Edwin discuss intimacy in relationships including how we navigate boundaries and walls, the beliefs and emotions that challenge our ability to let people get close to us, and what it means to allow ourselves to be vulnerable.
Kyle and Edwin share their reflections about the pitfalls of approaching relationships sacrificially and consider the value of "selfull-ness" in establishing healthy relationships.
Kyle and Edwin continue their series on relationships by questioning whether equality is an ideal we should strive toward. Along the way, the cohost contend with the difference between facts and truth, the meaning of being "equally yoked" and the concept of submission.
In the first segment of BMU's relationship series, Kyle and Edwin explore the foundations of their conceptions of relationships. Along the way, they examine our culture's propensity to idolize models and question the value of the relationship "wisdom" we've come to accept.
Kyle and Edwin explore our culture's conception of humility by addressing toxic humility and false humility, and working out some of the reasons we find ourselves in these practices today.
Kyle and Edwin chop it up about their skills in the kitchen and the influences that led them to find joy in cooking. The episode includes some of their favorite dishes, cooking tips and resources for improving skills in the kitchen.
Some references from the show include the Babish Culinary Universe YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/c/bingingwithbabish) including Basics with Babish (https://basicswithbabish.co/episodes) with particular attention to the "Tools," "Pantry Essentials," "Whole Chicken" and "Chicken Breasts" episodes.
Some other go-to online resources not mentioned in the episode are Chef Resha's website (https://carnaldish.com/) and The Kitchenista Diaries (https://www.kitchenistadiaries.com/) for their tremendous recipes.
Also shout out to Chef Derek Lee (Edwin's brother, IG: @dleethacook) whom Edwin somehow managed to forget to mention in an episode about cooking.
BMU is back after a brief hiatus and we're talking about practice. Yup, practice. Kyle and Edwin consider whether greatness should be the goal of everything we do while evaluating the reasons we avoid practicing disciplines we aren't immediately good at.
On the 10th(!) episode of BMU, Kyle and Edwin share what they've learned about themselves and our world after 16 months of the pandemic. The guys consider the pitfalls of extreme individualism and share ideas about the importance of leaning on each other.
Kyle and Edwin discuss their recent experiences with loss and the effect of processing grief on their lives. The discussion includes reflections of what they've learned from dealing with death and how they hope to live in light of these broader perspectives.
Kyle and Edwin discuss the week that was including responses to Bill Cosby's release, Sha'Carri Richardson's suspension and the fire in the Gulf of Mexico.
The conversation references the book The Queen of America Goes to Washington City: Essays on Sex and Citizenship by Lauren Belant.
Kyle and Edwin discuss the ways they were indoctrinated into discriminatory beliefs about the LGBTQ community and the damaging consequences of their own actions prior to unlearning. They consider the inherent contradictions of "love the sinner, hate the sin" and how they arrived at open and affirming positions on the rights and freedoms of members of the LGBTQ community. The discussion includes references to the article, "Seven Gay Texts: Biblical Passages Used to Condemn Homosexuality," by Robert K. Gnuse.
Kyle and Edwin discuss their earliest notions of joy and the complex balance of maintaining access to it by allowing themselves to feel the good and the bad.
Kyle and Edwin switch gears from "Are men on trash?" to discussing the the constructive responsibilities of men to in moving communities from the world that is to the world that ought to be.
The conversation references the following literature: Roots for Radiicals: Organizing for Power, Action and Justice by Edward T. Chambers; Love as The Practice of Freedom by bell hooks; Notes of Native Son by James Baldwin.
BMU is back with an extended episode addressing a big question: are men trash?
The conversation references the following literature: The Combahee River Collective Statement, Shifting: The Double Lives of Black Women in America by Charisse Jones and Kumea Shorter-Gooden, Ph.D. and The Man-Not: Race, Class, Genre, and the Dilemmas of Black Manhood by Tommy Curry
Kyle and Edwin continue their discussion about their inflection points and the implications of the rules we've accepted.
Kyle and Edwin explore the inflection points in their lives that influenced their unlearning journeys. The discussion shifts toward evaluating our society's devotion to the rules we've been taught.
*CONTENT WARNING* This episode focuses on responses to the killing of Ma'Khia Bryant. This content maybe difficult for some listeners.
Kyle and Edwin discuss the killing of Ma'Khia Bryant, highlighting many Black men's responses and debunking the value of justifications for Ma'Khia's death.
Black Men Unlearning is a podcast dedicated to the journey of unlearning the ideologies, thought patterns and logic that keep us bound to living and relating in ways that don't serve us. Kyle Brooks and Edwin Lee identify as cisgender, heterosexual Black men and aim to model unlearning through discussions about wide ranges of topics. Join our community by following the podcast on Instagram (@BlackMenUnlearning) and Twitter (@BlackMenUnlearn). You can keep the discussion going by emailing us at blackmenunlearning@gmail.com.