Transforming Engagement: The Podcast: Recent Episodes
Center for Transforming Engagement
We host conversations about changes that serve a common good — and a higher good. We talk with ministry leaders, counselors, academics, practitioners, and more to learn about how change happens.
In this deeply meaningful conversation, host Rose Madrid Swetman speaks with Romanita Hairston, CEO of the M. J. Murdock Charitable Trust. Drawing from her vantage point leading a major philanthropic institution and her lifelong experience in the Pacific Northwest, Romanita helps us see grief not only as an emotional experience but as a necessary communal practice that can strengthen relationships, build bridges, and open new possibilities for flourishing.
Romanita reflects on the disruptive events of recent years including the "quadruple pandemic" of public health crisis, economic instability, racial reckoning, and political polarization, and how these collective pressures have reshaped the nonprofit sector. She names the weariness, compassion fatigue, and leadership transitions impacting organizations today, while offering a framework for attending to the human experience beneath strategic plans, funding models, and systems change.
With warmth, clarity, and deep wisdom, Romanita offers pastors, nonprofit leaders, and anyone navigating change a compelling vision for how grief and gratitude deepen our capacity to lead with courage, humility, and love.
Resources
M. J. Murdock Charitable Trust
Romanita's Article in Christ & Cascadia
In this episode, Rose Madrid Swetman interviews Martin Jimenez from Pivot Northwest, discussing the organization's mission to engage young adults in church leadership and community. Joi Drawing from nearly a decade of research and application, Martin shares five key practices for meaningful intergenerational ministry:
- Creating dedicated young adult spaces
- Facilitating storytelling between generations
- Elevating young adults to leadership positions with real decision-making power
- Implementing intergenerational relationship building
- Forming diverse teams to guide these initiatives
They explore key learnings from research, the impact of social media on young adult theology, and the importance of intergenerational relationships. The conversation also touches on the challenges of polarization among young adults, the influence of figures like Mark Driscoll, and the need for compassion in church communities.
Martin also shares details about Pivot Northwest's upcoming intergenerational pilgrimage to the Camino de Santiago, designed to build trust and connection through months of preparation, the journey itself, and ongoing reflection.
Whether you're a pastor, lay leader, or simply interested in strengthening intergenerational community, this episode offers practical wisdom and research-backed insights for engaging young adults authentically.
Resources
pivotnw.org
https://www.youtube.com/@pivotnworg
https://theseattleschool.edu/
https://transformingengagement.org/
What does it mean to truly find your voice as a preacher?
Rev. Dr. Teresa Fry Brown has spent a lifetime exploring that question. A powerhouse in the world of preaching and a trailblazing scholar at Emory’s Candler School of Theology, Dr. Fry Brown brings her expertise in homiletics, womanism, and even speech pathology to this conversation on what it really means to find—and own—your authentic preaching voice.
In this episode of Transforming Engagement: The Podcast, she joins host Rev. Dr. Seth Thomas to explore the delicate balance between personal authenticity, the needs of listeners, and the nuance of different contexts. How do we cultivate a preaching voice that is both deeply true to ourselves and deeply respectful of the spaces we enter? Dr. Fry Brown shares wisdom on everything from the technical aspects of vocal delivery to the spiritual and emotional demands of preaching through hardship.
And yes, we even get into why she preaches with her shoes off.
Join us for a practical and deeply inspiring conversation about preaching, presence, and the power of knowing your voice.
Who gets to preach in your congregation? Is the pulpit reserved for just one voice, or could it be a place of shared storytelling and wisdom? This week on Transforming Engagement: The Podcast, we continue our Reimagining Preaching series with the Rev. Dr. Shauna Hannan, a professor, author, and preacher who is passionate about equipping the whole congregation for the ministry of proclamation.
Dr. Hannan challenges the traditional model of preaching as a solo endeavor and instead invites pastors to develop preaching collaborations—empowering lay leaders to find their voices and engage Scripture in new ways. She shares practical ways to start small, build confidence, and create a culture where multiple voices contribute to the life of the church.
What happens when pastors shift from simply delivering sermons to facilitating conversations around Scripture? What if instead of “feedback” after a sermon, we engage in “feed forward” before the sermon even begins? Dr. Hannan offers fresh insights on how inviting laypeople into the preaching process not only strengthens their confidence but also deepens relationships within the church community.
Whether you’re a seasoned preacher or someone exploring how to step into a preaching role, this episode is full of wisdom on how to make preaching more collaborative, inclusive, and transformative. Join us as we reimagine what it means to share the gospel together!
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Continue the Conversation at the Reimagining Preaching Conference: May 3, 2025
Join the Center for Transforming Engagement in Shoreline, Washington, for this skills-based conference equipping clergy, church staff, and lay preachers to bring the Word to life in Cascadia.
Learn more and register at: https://transformingengagement.org/preaching-conference
If you're a pastor wrestling with how to address social issues from the pulpit without dividing your congregation – or putting your job at risk – this episode is for you.
Rev. Dr. Leah Schade brings practical wisdom and thoughtful insights on how to preach with courage and compassion in today's polarized climate. Drawing from her extensive research and her new book Preaching and Social Issues: Tools and Tactics for Empowering Your Prophetic Voice, Leah shares insights on navigating difficult conversations from the pulpit.
She offers practical strategies for pastors seeking to address social issues in ways that build bridges rather than deepen divisions. With a focus on dialogue, Leah encourages pastors to invite their congregations into thoughtful conversations that uncover shared values and inspire collective action.
This episode is a must-listen for pastors who want to speak boldly about justice and social issues while still nurturing connection and trust within their congregations. Leah’s insights offer both encouragement and practical tools to help you engage your community in meaningful ways — without losing your voice or your pastoral relationships.
About This Season, “Reimagining Preaching”:
This season, we’re exploring how the church can proclaim the good news in our time by reimagining preaching. Host Rev. Dr. Seth Thomas is joined by experts in the preaching craft—leaders who think deeply and dream boldly about how we can bring a liberated witness to the pulpit and the world.
As you listen to this season, please let us know what you think. We value your feedback and questions!
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Related Resources:
- Are you a preacher in the U.S.? You can help Dr. Schade and her team with their research studying ministry, preaching, and social issues by filling out this survey.
- Thinking of addressing social issues in a sermon? Preachers can take this 5-minute assessment of their strengths and vulnerabilities here.
- Discover more resources, links, and the transcript from this episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast
Hope isn’t just for Easter Sunday—it’s a rhythm we’re invited to live into every day. But in times like these, how do we hold onto hope—and bring it to our congregations and communities?
In the first episode of our new season of Transforming Engagement: the Podcast, host Rev. Dr. Seth Thomas sits down with Dr. Mark Lloyd Taylor, author of So Fill Our Imaginations: The Work and Play of a Year in Preaching, to explore what it truly means to preach hope.
Together, they explore the paradox of hope: while we may not always see it, we are called to be it. Dr. Taylor connects this to the Episcopal baptismal covenant, emphasizing commitments to justice, service, and stewardship. A recent addition to the covenant—caring for God’s creation—highlights the importance of concrete action in our faith.
Dr. Taylor shares how the Godly Play early childhood education method can inspire a more interactive and imaginative approach to preaching. He offers practical ways to invite your congregation into the process—not just through words, but through visuals and the physical space around you.
Whether you preach from the pulpit or live your faith in everyday moments, this conversation will inspire you to cultivate attentiveness, deepen your engagement, and bring hope to the communities you serve.
About This Season, “Reimagining Preaching”:
This season, we’re exploring how the church can proclaim the good news in our time by reimagining preaching. Host Seth Thomas is joined by experts in the preaching craft—leaders who think deeply and dream boldly about how we can bring a liberated witness to the pulpit and the world.
Listener Resources: * Each episode of this season, our guest spotlights an organization making a positive impact, In this episode, Dr. Taylor shares the work of St. Elizabeth Episcopal Church, which houses the Neighborhood House, an early learning center, in Burien, Washington. * Check out Dr. Mark Lloyd Taylor’s book, So Fill Our Imaginations: The Work and Play of a Year of Preaching (Wipf & Stock, 2022), available here. * Don’t miss an episode: Subscribe to Transforming Engagement: the Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Amazon Music (Audible).
Continue the Conversation at the Reimagining Preaching Conference: May 3, 2025 Join the Center for Transforming Engagement in Shoreline, Washington, for this skills-based conference equipping clergy, church staff, and lay preachers to bring the Word to life in Cascadia. Learn more and register at: https://transformingengagement.org/preaching-conference/.
As we wrap up our series Advent: a Season of Waiting, Brian McLaren and Rose Madrid Swetman explore the theme of love, especially the challenge and beauty of loving across differences.
The conversation delves into what it means to embody love amidst uncertainty and polarization. Rose and Brian discuss how love can hold space for shared humanity, allowing for connection even in disagreement.
You’ll hear some practical insights include how to navigate tense conversations—like at holiday gatherings—with respect, humility, and openness.
Listen to the full conversation to discover how love might be embodied in your own context this Advent season.
This week, Rev. Dr. Angela Parker joins Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman to explore how joy can coexist with sorrow, lament, and adversity.
Their conversation reminds us that joy isn’t just possible in difficult seasons — it’s essential for resilience and shared hope. Embodying joy is a vital part of practicing a “faithful resistance.”
We hope this episode inspires you to embrace the transformative power of joy, even in the waiting.
Dr. J.P. Kang and Rev. Dr. Charlene Lee delve into the theme of peace amidst chaos, grief, and division. Their timely discussion, set against the backdrop of a contentious post-election season in the United States, explores the biblical concept of peace as communal, relational, and deeply rooted in God’s promises.
With candid insights and theological depth, this episode invites us to consider: How can we embody peace in fractured relationships, hurting communities, and a broken world? And how might Advent's promise of peace shape the way we bear witness to God’s kingdom in the here and now?
We invite you to listen to the full conversation and reflect on what it means to seek and live out true peace today.
How do we hold on to hope in a world that feels heavy with pain and disillusionment?
Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. J. Derek McNeil invite us into an honest conversation about navigating the tension between hope and despair during the Advent season.
In this episode, Dan and Derek explore the vulnerability of waiting and the struggle between wanting quick fixes and trusting in a bigger story. They talk about how cynicism, disappointment, and past wounds can chip away at our trust in the future—and why we need each other to rekindle hope when it feels out of reach.
Advent, they suggest, is a “haunting” season, one that challenges us to sit with the tension of longing and trust. It’s a time to nurture patience, imagination, and faith — even when the path forward feels uncertain. Join Dan and Derek on the podcast today as they wrestle with the beauty and complexity of waiting with hope.
In our first episode of this 5-part series, Advent: A Season of Waiting, Stephanie Bulthuis and Dr. Danielle Zurinsky dive into the transformative power of gratitude. Drawing on research from positive psychology and their own experiences as parents, professionals, and long-time friends, they explore how gratitude can shift our perspectives, build resilience, and deepen empathy.
Join us as we uncover how waiting, paired with gratitude, can help us find beauty and purpose—even in the midst of uncertainty.
You can find a full transcript, show notes, and learn more about our podcast guests for each episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast
We’re back with a special bonus episode! In this episode of Transforming Engagement: The Podcast, Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman sits down with Shannon Sigler, Executive Director of Brehm Center, to explore how the arts can uniquely bridge divides and foster community—especially in polarized times.
We hope this conversation inspires you to think about ways you can bring art, creativity, and imagination into your faith practice and the communities you serve.
You can learn more about Brehm Center at Fuller Theological Seminar at: brehmcenter.org/
Brehm Center was one of the generous sponsors of the 2024 Christ & Cascadia Gathering, and today’s conversation marks an approximate halfway point to next year’s event!
Be sure to save the date for the second annual Christ & Cascadia Gathering on May 2, 2025. You can sign up for event updates at:
christandcascadia.com/gathering
This season, we’ve had the pleasure of speaking with so many wise women in ministry and engaging in enriching conversations with them. Now, Rose and Jenni sit down to reflect and wrap up the season by sharing their biggest takeaways and personal insights.
If you’ve missed any episodes, don’t worry! This recap will give you a quick overview of each one and hopefully inspire you to dive into the episodes that resonate most with you.
Listen to the full season and find show notes at transformingengagement.org/podcast
Find more resources for women in ministry at:
https://transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
In this episode, co-hosts Rose and Jenni invite two young women serving in different ministry contexts across the United States: Rev. Cassie Carroll, head pastor of Palisades Presbyterian Church in San Diego, California, and Natalia Guzmán, Missions Faith Partnership Coordinator at National Community Church in Washington, D.C.
Rev. Cassie Carroll is the first female pastor of a 135-year-old church in San Diego, leading an older congregation. She discusses the challenges of being a younger leader in a traditional setting and how she has focused on building relationships and listening to the particular needs of the church’s neighbors.
Natalia Guzmán shares her experience of making a significant career shift by moving to the United States to work in ministry. As someone who doesn’t speak English as her primary language and is new to the U.S. context, she talks about feeling misunderstood. However, she found that what she initially perceived as a weakness became a strength, making her more relatable and approachable to many of the people she serves.
Despite their different contexts—San Diego and Washington, D.C.—they both highlight the importance of understanding and engaging with their communities in unique ways. We hope this episode reminds you of the ways in which you are uniquely called and qualified to serve in your own context.
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
If you've ever felt emotionally drained from caring for others, especially during tough times, this conversation is for you.
Mary Kathryn Nader, Ph.D., LPC-S, PMH-C, is a licensed professional counselor in Texas who specializes in women's mental health, including postpartum depression, anxiety, grief, infertility, mom guilt, perfectionism, post-divorce, perinatal mental health, compassion fatigue, imposter syndrome, and more.
She explains how compassion fatigue differs from burnout. It's that sense of overwhelm that comes from witnessing others’ pain and struggles, and it can take a toll on both your mind and body. During the pandemic, she focused her dissertation research on women clergy, and the response was overwhelming. So many women in ministry opened up about feeling like they simply couldn’t give anymore. This conversation isn't just about understanding the problem; it's also about finding hope and practical ways forward. Dr. Nader shares insights from her research and offers heartfelt recommendations for how we can continue to follow our calling to serve others in ministry, friendships, and family life—without losing ourselves in the process.
The conversation shifts to imposter syndrome, a challenge more commonly experienced by women than men. Mary Kathryn notes that many women feel unqualified for their roles, a sentiment often rooted in a lack of female role models and societal support, particularly in environments that haven't traditionally embraced female leadership. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing these feelings without letting them take over, focusing on strengths, and seeking support from mentors and peers. Additionally, Dr. Nader highlights the role of faith, reminding women that God is working through them and that they are not alone on their journey.
Ultimately, Mary Kathryn serves up a powerful reminder that even in the face of these challenges, support from others, self-compassion, and our faith can guide us toward healing and continued purpose.
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
- Each episode spotlights an organization making a positive impact. Mary Kathryn calls our attention to A Memory Grows, an organization that provides a space of healing and peace for parents who are grieving the death of their child. By bringing together those who have experienced a similar loss in a retreat setting we honor and celebrate our children while making connections with others who truly understand our journey. A memory grows where love carries on. Learn more at: https://amemorygrows.org/
This week, we’re joined by Inés Velásquez-McBryde, a pastor, preacher, reconciler, and mujerista theologian from Nicaragua and now residing in Southern California. She is the lead pastor and founder of The Church We Hope For.
As a third-generation pastor, Inés shares her powerful journey of becoming the first female pastor in her family's lineage, drawing deeply from her Nicaraguan roots and the spiritual heritage of her ancestors. She highlights how her father, a "prophetic disruptor," played a crucial role in challenging traditional gender roles and encouraging her to lead.
Inés reflects on the profound impact of her cultural and familial background, emphasizing the importance of honoring those who came before her as she leads with the power of her ancestors. She also introduces the concept of mujerista theology, which centers on the experiences of Latina women and seeks to dismantle patriarchal and colonial structures within the church.
Throughout today’s conversation, Inés invites us to consider how we can “lead like a woman,” reclaiming our bodies, voices, and identities in spaces where women have often been marginalized.
We think you’ll want to listen more than once to fully absorb the wisdom shared in this episode!
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
- Each episode spotlights an organization making a positive impact. Inés calls our attention to The Center for Restorative Justice, which educates and equips individuals and communities to address the history of racial injustice and disrupt its ongoing impact by making the past present. We do this through experiential learning opportunities, educational cohorts, and embodied storytelling all grounded in spiritual practices. Learn more at: https://www.cfrjustice.org/
For those navigating the joys and challenges of co-leading with a partner or pursuing ministry alongside your family, you don’t want to miss this episode! We’re thrilled to talk with The Rev. Jeanette Salguero as she shares her inspiring calling as a wife, mother, pastor, and advocate.
Growing up in a ministerial family, Jeanette felt a deep calling to serve. This calling extends to her family as she co-leads The Gathering Place, a vibrant multicultural church in Orlando, Florida, with her husband and serves alongside her sons. She also passionately advocates on behalf of Latino communities in the U.S., focusing on issues such as immigration, education, and health, through her work with The National Latino Evangelical Coalition.
As she holds many roles, Jeanette emphasizes the importance of prayer, teamwork, and accountability. She and her husband strive to keep their family a priority while doing ministry. She beautifully describes their partnership: “Co-leading a church is a tango. It’s a dance, a beautiful dance. Sometimes we are in sync, and sometimes we step on each other's toes… It’s not easy work, but we have an abundance of grace and love for each other.”
Listen to learn how integrating faith, family, and community support into your ministry can not only enhance your leadership but also deepen your impact.
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
- Each episode spotlights an organization making a positive impact, and Jeanette highlights her organization, National Latino Evangelical Coalition, which is a network of Latino Evangelical churches, pastors, leaders and not-for-profit organizations committed to Gospel-centered transformation, empowering the church and working towards the common good. You can learn more at nalec.org.
Join us as Faith Eury Cho shares her inspiring journey from a young girl seeking God to following her calling to become a preacher and leader in ministry. As the CEO and founder of The Honor Summit, a nonprofit organization that equips and activates Asian American women for the mission of God, Faith brings a wealth of experience and wisdom. Alongside her husband, Pastor David Cho, she is also the co-founder and co-pastor of Mosaic Covenant Church of NJ.
Faith opens up about the challenges she faced as a minority female in ministry, often without role models and navigating the narcissistic tendencies of some leaders. Despite these obstacles, she emphasizes the sufficiency of God's presence, especially for those who feel marginalized in the church. She underscores that true impact in ministry comes from relying on God rather than seeking control or affirmation from others.
Faith Eury Cho’s story is one of resilience, grace, and deep spiritual intimacy. Her experiences offer valuable lessons on the importance of relying on God, the transformative power of wilderness seasons in shaping our faith, and the necessity of community and discernment in ministry.
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
- Each episode spotlights an organization making a positive impact, and Faith highlights her organization The Honor Summit, a nonprofit ministry dedicated to equipping and activating Asian American women for the mission of God. You can learn more about their work at thehonorsummit.com.
Check out Faith Eury Cho’s book, Experiencing Friendship with God: How the Wilderness Draws Us to His Presence.
Join Rachael Clinton Chen for the conclusion of her three-part series, where she offers a candid and heartfelt look at her journey of holistic healing from complex PTSD and anxiety. In this final episode, Rachael explores the surprising aspects of trauma recovery, including how trauma manifests in the body and the often unpredictable nature of the healing process.
Building on her previous discussions about the mental and spiritual impacts of trauma, Rachael now turns her focus to the physical aspects of healing. She shares insights from her own experiences with various healing modalities, highlighting what has been effective for her. While this episode is not intended as medical advice, we hope the central message is clear: healing is a continuous journey, full of both challenges and progress, and sometimes requiring revisiting old wounds.
We hope this series of heart-to-heart conversations has brought you hope, made you laugh, made you think, and most of all made you feel like you’re not alone.
Thank you for taking this journey with us. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this series—please email us at support@theallendercenter.org with your feedback!
Join us this week for an inspiring conversation with Tara Beth Leach, senior pastor at Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois, co-founder of Propel Ecclesia, and co-host of the Pastor’s Table podcast. Tara Beth opens up about her journey as the first female millennial pastor of a mega church in Southern California, the resistance she has faced as a woman in ministry, and the invaluable support she has received from mentors, cohorts, and therapy to stay true to her calling.
We think that Tara Beth’s story will resonate with many female leaders in ministry, and if you hear anything from this episode (and this season) we hope you hear that you’re not alone. If you’re seeking support on your ministry journey, consider joining our Fall 2024 Resilience Circles. These 8-month programs offer a space to connect with others facing similar challenges and to develop more resilience to flourish in your calling. Learn more and join the waitlist to be the first to know when registration opens at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry.
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
- Each episode spotlights an organization making a positive impact, and Tara Beth is deeply committed to empowering women leaders through Propel Ecclesia. Discover more and support scholarships for women attending the 2025 cohorts here.
- Look out for Tara Beth Leach’s upcoming Bible study, Threaded: Unraveling Our Story Through God’s Covenants, coming in 2025.
With a profound commitment to social justice, Rev. Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil advocates for reconciliation that transcends superficial diversity and inclusion efforts, highlighting the necessity of reparations as a critical step towards genuine reconciliation.
In this conversation co-hosted by Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman and Jenni Wong Clayville, Rev. Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil reflects on her personal journey into ministry, the challenges faced by women of color in predominantly white church spaces, and the importance of trailblazing for future generations.
Be sure to check out Dr. Brenda’s latest book, Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities.
In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing good work in the world. Dr. Brenda gives a shout out to Christians for Biblical Equality, an international organization working to educate, advocate, and liberate women and men from Christian patriarchy. You can learn more about their work at:
https://www.cbeinternational.org/
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more att transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
Welcome to a new season of Transforming Engagement: the Podcast! For the next few episodes, we’re talking about women in ministry.
Each season, we focus our conversations on a single topic and take a deep dive into learning its complexities by inviting perspectives from diverse backgrounds and expertise.
In this series, we will explore women in ministry with a diverse group of women leaders. We will discuss the path to ministry, discern the way forward, challenges and triumphs, mental health, gender and leadership, and much more.
We hope you’ll find these conversations inspiring and practical—whether you are a woman in ministry, a leader from any marginalized background, or if you’re passionate about empowering all of God’s people to lead and serve in the ministry they feel called to.
In this first episode, you’ll get to know our co-hosts, Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman and Jenni Wong Clayville, who are both experienced ministry leaders, advisers, and champions for their fellow women in the field of ministry. We can’t wait to get started!
Listener Resources:
If you are a woman in ministry seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click below:
https://transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
Join us for a special bonus episode as Dr. Kate Rae Davis reflects on the theme of the inaugural Christ & Cascadia Gathering held last month. Ministry leaders from diverse contexts across the Pacific Northwest convened to explore what makes ministry unique in the Cascadia region.
Despite facing distinct challenges, there was a prevailing sense of hope and resilience—a shared belief that collaboration and innovation could spark new life even in the face of adversity.
One of the biggest takeaways was a collective desire for connection. Plans are already underway for the next gathering in 2025, where the focus will shift to meaningful engagement with scripture in community settings.
If you're looking for a place to connect, learn, and be inspired, sign up to receive emails when the date and location are announced at christandcascadia.com/newsletter .
Rev. Ron Werner, Jr. joins Dr. Kate Rae Davis to share his take on ministry in Cascadia and how the musical and cultural influences of the Pacific Northwest have shaped his identity and approach to leadership.
Rooted in Oregon since 2005, Ron is the founding Director of Together Lab, where he weaves together people of faith and fierce love to cultivate leader-full movements and ministries.
The conversation highlights the shift from traditional church-centered approaches to community engagement to a more decentralized and collaborative model. Ron emphasizes the importance of embracing the margins and engaging with diverse communities beyond institutional boundaries. He shares insights from his experience working in grassroots movements and community organizing, emphasizing the need for authenticity, vulnerability, and relational engagement.
Join us as we consider:
- The challenges of navigating cultural shifts, especially in areas where skepticism towards institutions is prevalent.
- The evolving role of faith communities in facilitating collective empowerment and social change.
- A vision for creating inclusive spaces that honor diverse perspectives and experiences, particularly in the realm of youth ministry.
Wherever you’re listening from, we hope these conversations inspire reflections on how you’re serving in your own context.
Join us for an enriching conversation with Tim Soerens, co-founding executive director of The Parish Collective, as we explore the distinctiveness of ministry in the vibrant Cascadia region. From its breathtaking landscapes to its unique cultural fabric, Cascadia offers a fertile ground for holistic neighborhood flourishing.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
- The essence of holistic neighborhood flourishing and its significance in fostering thriving communities.
- How the Parish Collective is catalyzing change and innovation in ministry by imagining the common good together.
- The transformative power of place-based ministry and the importance of cultivating a deep ecological sensibility.
- Reflections on the challenges and opportunities of ministry in Cascadia compared to other regions.
- Insights into the upcoming Inhabit Conference, a gathering that celebrates stories of renewal, reconciliation, and innovation in everyday church life.
Whether you’re a pastor, entrepreneur, artist, nonprofit leader, or simply passionate about community engagement, this conversation offers valuable insights into reimagining church and community in the Cascadia region and beyond.
If you’d like to continue this conversation, we invite you to join us this April in the Seattle area for the Christ & Cascadia Gathering and the Inhabit Conference!
The Christ & Cascadia Gathering on Thursday, April 25, is an official pre-conference event for the Inhabit Conference on April 26-27. We hope you’ll plan to join us for both events this spring. You can register for both events at a discounted rate at: https://www.parishcollective.org/inhabit-2024
As we continue our conversation about the distinctiveness of ministry in the Cascadia region, we’re joined by Rev. Melissa Skelton. Currently serving as the Bishop Provisional in the Diocese of Olympia, Melissa shares her journey from the East Coast to the Cascadia region, offering a wealth of insights into the distinct cultural and environmental differences she encountered along the way.
In this episode, you’ll:
- Embrace Nature's Influence: Delve into how the awe-inspiring landscapes of the Cascadia region, from majestic mountains to fierce oceans, shape our perceptions and enrich our human experience.
- Navigate Cultural Nuances: Learn to appreciate and navigate the unique cultural differences between regions, fostering collaboration and deeper understanding in ministry and community engagement.
- Discover Innovative Ministry Models: Melissa shares examples of innovative ministries like the St. Hildegard Sanctuary and Salal and Cedar community, where art, trauma sensitivity, and Indigenous perspectives intersect with liturgical practices, redefining traditional notions of church and spirituality.
- Reflect on Congregational Fundamentals: Consider the practices that form the backbone of thriving congregations, including well-crafted liturgy, impactful preaching, robust pastoral care, diverse prayer forms, and engaging formation opportunities rooted in a rich Christ-centered identity.
Join us as we discuss new possibilities for ministry and community engagement in the Cascadia region and beyond.
In this season, we're exploring the unique tapestry of the continental Pacific Northwest, known as the "Cascadia" region, and how it shapes ministry. Today, we're joined by Rev. Emily McGinley, who shares her journey from the Midwest to San Francisco and the cultural and religious differences she's encountered.
You’ll gain insights into:
- Understanding Cultural and Religious Contexts: Rev. Emily's experience transitioning between regions highlights the importance of understanding and adapting to different cultural and religious contexts in ministry.
- Intersectionality in Ministry: Rev. Emily talks about how her Asian American identity influences her ministry, emphasizing the need to recognize and honor various aspects of identity within the context of faith.
- Engaging with Contemporary Issues: Discover how to approach complex contemporary topics like A.I. from a theological perspective, fostering discussions that encourage critical thinking and exploration of their relevance to spiritual beliefs.
- Balancing Idealism with Realism: Reflect on the delicate balance between idealism and realism in ministry, considering how to hold onto a vision for positive change while navigating practical challenges and limitations.
No matter where you're listening from, we hope these conversations spark reflection on your own ministry context.
To our neighbors throughout the Cascadia region: Mark your calendars for April 25th and plan to join us for our inaugural Christ & Cascadia Gathering. More details can be found at christandcascadia.com/gathering.
Welcome to a new season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast!
On this podcast, we are dedicated to exploring how each of us can serve God and neighbor in our unique communities and contexts. This season, we’re inviting you into our extended backyard - the unique tapestry of the continental Pacific Northwest, defined by its watershed, and known as the “Cascadia” region.
Here, ministry takes on its own distinct flavor. This season, we’re asking: What sets Cascadia apart from other regions of the US and Canada? How do those differences shape our ministries, and how do leaders here understand their role in shaping those ministries?
We’re kicking off this season with a conversation with Forrest Inslee, who brought the Christ and Cascadia journal into The Seattle School. Forrest is a professor who is involved in faith-based environmental education and advocacy nonprofit called Circlewood. He also hosts a podcast for that Circlewood called Earthkeepers, which focuses on helping Christ followers to integrate creation care into everyday faith practices.
Join us as we explore:
- Geographical influences and human-nature relationships that uniquely shape the culture in this region
- Cultural norms including the suspicion of tradition, desire for independence, and a more flexible approach to faith practices compared to other regions.
- The challenges and opportunities in building community, including “The Seattle Freeze”
- The future of faith in this region, including non-traditional church structures, emphasis on authenticity and spirituality over religious dogma, and incorporation of nature into religious practices.
Wherever you're listening from, we hope these conversations inspire reflections on how you're serving in your own context.
To our neighbors throughout the Cascadia region: Mark your calendars for April 25th and plan to join us for our inaugural Christ & Cascadia Gathering. More details can be found at christandcascadia.com/gathering.
As we close this season on Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout, host Rose Madrid Swetman is joined by Kate Rae Davis to engage in a reflective conversation, highlighting key insights and common themes discussed throughout the season.
The season has unfolded a spectrum of challenges faced by those in youth and campus ministry, ranging from the struggles of maintaining work-life balance to the emotional toll of guiding young individuals through pivotal life stages. The discussions also presented the unique challenges presented by the post-2020 landscape, adding an extra layer of complexity to the already demanding roles of ministry leaders.
We encourage you to revisit each episode from this series, sharing the wealth of knowledge not only with fellow youth ministers but also with decision-makers such as elder boards, pastors, and denominational leaders. By doing so, we aim to foster a collective effort in reshaping our approach and creating a renewed vision for supporting youth and campus ministry leaders in their crucial work with young people.
We hope this season has not only shed light on the challenges but has also provided hopeful paths forward, and we invite you to continue to be part of this transformative dialogue.
Listener Resources: * If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here. * NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment. * Download the free Clergy Burnout Report * Download the Youth Pastor Compensation Report, 2023 from The Youth Cartel, as referenced in today's conversation
Kurt Rietema joins us with over 14 years of experience leading missional journeys for Youthfront, an almost 80-year-old youth ministry organization, that focuses on camps, youth worker training, and community development.
Kurt shares his personal journey, including his time living in Mexico and to his current neighborhood in Kansas City with a high percentage of undocumented immigrants. His work involves youth social entrepreneurship, immigration advocacy, and housing/lending partnerships for immigrants.
The discussion dives into the challenges of living in the same neighborhood where ministry is conducted, and navigating the complex and often enmeshed relationships that can contribute to burnout or experiencing vicarious trauma.
The episode addresses establishing boundaries to protect well-being without being too rigid and the necessity of playing the long game in ministry by incorporating sabbaticals.
Kurt also shares more about his recent book, To Mend the World, co-authored with Jason Lief. The book challenges traditional models of youth ministry, emphasizing that old paradigms are no longer effective. Kurt discusses the limitations of conventional approaches, such as Wednesday night youth gatherings, and highlights the need for a shift towards more strategic and sustained mission work. The book seeks to elevate the understanding of mission, advocating for its incorporation into everyday life and promoting engagement in God's redemptive work in the world.
To Mend the World by Jason Lief and Kurt Rietema is available now wherever books are sold.
Each week, we ask our guests to highlight an organization doing good work. Kurt shares the work being done by Abara Borderland Connections, an organization seeking narrative, systemic, and personal change through Border Encounter Experiences for groups across the country.
“So often in youth ministry, we think that it's our job to do ministry at young people. Sometimes we're doing youth ministry for them, but what we really encourage people to think about is how do we do ministry with them?” -Megan DeWald
This week's guest is Megan DeWald, the director of the Institute for Youth Ministry at Princeton Theological Seminary. With two decades of experience, Megan highlights the gap between the calling of youth ministers and the overwhelming job descriptions they receive. She points out the mismatch between traditional job expectations, like organizing events, and the actual work needed to address today's youth challenges, such as mental health crises and political issues.
The episode reveals the broken state of the current youth ministry system and stresses the importance of aligning the job with the critical work of caring for and guiding young people through their challenges. Megan discusses the added pressures on youth workers, including isolation and competition, emphasizing the need for a fundamental reevaluation of the youth ministry system to better serve ministers and the youth they aim to support.
This episode is an invitation to a new imagination and innovation for what youth ministry can be today – and reminds us to pull up chairs for the youth that these churches hope to serve.
Each episode, we ask our guest to call our attention to an organization that is doing good work. Megan highlights two projects:
Log College Project is an 18-month program that brings the best of Princeton Theological Seminary to your region. We help Christian congregations design, test, and implement new models of ministry, with teenagers at the design table.
Beaufolio Studios is a creative art house hosting collaborative workshops and consulting relationships, utilizing creativity and theological reflection to "create creators" at the intersections of sacred art, human-centered design, and restorative equity.
We encourage you to check them out and support their work if you feel led.
If you’re a youth or campus ministry leader - or you have one on your staff - you won’t want to miss this conversation! Join us today as we bring together a vibrant panel of three exceptional leaders in youth and campus ministry: campus coach Octavia Miller, campus pastor Joe Phenisee, and Reverend Amanda Rigby.
We’ll dive into their personal journeys into ministry, explore the challenges leading to burnout, uncover the telltale signs of burnout within their ministries, and gain valuable insights into their joys, frustrations, and aspirations for the pivotal roles they play in guiding and supporting the younger generations within the church. We hope this conversation deepens your understanding of the vital work these leaders undertake.
In today's episode, we had the pleasure of chatting with Mark DeVries, the co-founder of the Ministry Architects and the Center for Youth Ministry Training. Mark brings a wealth of experience, having served as the Associate Pastor for Youth and Their Families at First Presbyterian Church in Nashville for 28 years. He joked with us that he is a Youth Minister who is about to enter into Medicare. We are excited to share with you his insights and experiences in youth ministry.
Reflecting on a pivotal moment in his ministry career, Mark opens up about facing burnout in the early 2000s. He emphasizes the crucial need for ministry leaders to have a coach or spiritual director, saying: "I often say to our staff, if you are a coach and you do not have a coach, you are a hypocrite. You don't really believe in coaching; you just believe in your job."
Mark delves into his exploration of systems using the Edwin Friedman Model, highlighting the significance of addressing underlying system issues rather than merely dealing with surface-level content problems.
Drawing on a powerful metaphor, Mark encourages the creation of an "island of viral health" within an organization. He suggests that even in challenging environments, leaders can architect a healthy culture for their ministry.
We are confident that you will discover many, many nuggets of wisdom in this insightful conversation with Mark DeVries.
Each week, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. Mark talks about a local organization in Nashville, the Presbyterian Latinx Ministry Fund, which provides ESL, food pantry, and other support to Nashville’s Latinx community.
In our country, the undeniable truth is that a mental health crisis is profoundly affecting youth and families. What if there was a more robust connection between youth ministry leaders and mental health professionals? Could this create a supportive environment for young people and those caring for them?
Today, we welcome Reverend Amanda Rigby, the pastor of Christian Education and Formation at Edenton Street United Methodist Church, and Dr. Elizabeth Watters, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Together, they co-founded The Well Mental and Spiritual Care.
They introduce a groundbreaking model that emphasizes collaboration between a youth ministry leader and a licensed family therapist.
Through their personal experiences, the guests candidly discuss their own seasons of burnout and the strategies they employed (and are still employing) to navigate these challenging seasons.
The conversation extends beyond their individual journeys, addressing the broader societal context of the mental health crisis affecting youth and families. Amanda and Elizabeth stress the importance of collaboration between mental health professionals and youth leaders to establish a supportive environment. They advocate for open conversations, the sharing of personal experiences, and breaking the stigma surrounding mental health in faith settings. Additionally, they underscore the need for safe spaces, proper training, and dedicated budgets for mental health support.
You’ll hear Amanda reference another episode she recorded with us in this conversation. Stay tuned to hear more from Amanda on an episode releasing in just a few weeks along with a panel of youth and campus ministry leaders.
We hope this conversation sparks further dialogue and action, encouraging us all to contribute to a more supportive and compassionate environment for the well-being of our young people and those who guide them.
In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Amanda and Elizabeth point us to The Trevor Project, an international organization whose mission is to end suicide among LGBTQ young people through advocacy, education, and crisis support.
Cited Resources from this Episode:
- The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann
- ARC Framework
More Listener Resources:
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.
- NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment.
- Download the free Clergy Burnout Report
We’re pleased to welcome Charlie Conder, Lead Coach for the Youth Cartel, an organization dedicated to encouraging and challenging adults who minister to youth through holistic professional coaching. Charlie led a large youth ministry; in fact, her middle school participants grew to be half the size of the entire church. She discusses the challenges she faced as her ministry grew, leading to significant stress and physical and mental burnout.
Charlie emphasizes the importance of recognizing signs of burnout, understanding the manifestation of stress in one's body, and the need for a more holistic approach to leadership. She also shares more about her decision to step away from ministry, the grieving process involved, and the guilt associated with prioritizing personal well-being. The conversation touches on the role of leaders in creating a culture that values self-care, open communication, and supporting one another.
In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Charlie wanted to shout out Terre Haute Friendship House, which offers an inclusive and affordable housing model that brings individuals with and without disabilities together in community to reach their full potential in Terre Haute, Indiana.
About our guest: Charlie Conder grew up in rural Illinois but has been living in metro Atlanta, GA for the past 19 years. She has two grown daughters who stop by to shop in the pantry from time to time. Before being called into ministry, Charlie taught Middle School for 6 years. For the last 18 years, Charlie has been serving in the local Methodist Church. She currently works for Orange as an XP3 student specialist and is the Lead Coach for The Youth Cartel. Charlie has never passed a dog that she didn’t want to pet and her most favorite thing in the world is a Swedish Fish. But only the OG red ones. You can find her at charlieconder.com and on Instagram at @charlieconder.
Listener resources: * If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here. * NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment. * Download the free Clergy Burnout Report
Welcome to a brand new season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast! This time, we're diving deep into a topic that's been a long time coming – Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout.
We open this season with a special guest, Matt Wiggins, who sparked our journey into the world of youth and campus ministry burnout. It began when he came across our Clergy Burnout Report during Season 2 and reached out. Matt had an important question: What about the unique challenges faced by leaders working with the younger generation, those often nonordained, part-time, or volunteer youth ministry leaders?
Youth ministry can be a revolving door, with an average staffing turnaround of just 18 months. People step into these leadership roles for various reasons – a stepping stone to their next calling, a deep-seated passion, or sometimes a blend of both.
This season, we'll be delving into the distinct challenges that leaders in youth and campus ministry encounter. From a professional standpoint, they often find themselves underpaid and overworked. Moreover, they can feel somewhat sidelined from the central church leadership structure. While this may sometimes spare them from certain decisions, it can also mean exclusion from representing the very people they serve in crucial church matters.
And let's not forget that youth ministry leaders are on the frontlines supporting a generation facing unique challenges like never before. Gen Z youth have been profoundly impacted by the pandemic, experiencing disruptions to their lives and critical development time lost in connecting with peers, schools, and communities.
Your host for this season is Rose Madrid Swetman, the Associate Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement. We're incredibly thankful to Matt Wiggins for his invitation to explore this pressing topic.
In this exciting season, we'll be joined by leaders in the youth and campus ministry field from across the United States. Together, we'll explore a world of insights, engage in meaningful discussions, and dare to dream about innovative ways to support these dedicated leaders and the generations they serve.
Youth & Campus Ministry Resources:
- NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment at https://transformingengagement.org/resources/disillusionment-with-ministry/
- Download the free Clergy Burnout Report at https://transformingengagement.org/pastor-resources
- Find the support you need with a cohort of peers in one of our upcoming Resilience Circles. The 2024 waitlist is currently open. Visit https://transformingengagement.org/circles to learn more.
- Visit our website to learn more about today’s guest, get the transcript, and link to more resources at https://transformingengagement.org/podcast
More related resources from this episode:
Matt and Rose cite these resources and organizations in their conversation: Ministry Architects, Doug Fields, Springtide Research, the Surgeon General’s report on Youth Mental Health (2021), and the Barna Report: Pastors Share Top Reasons They’ve Considered Quitting Ministry in the Past Year (2022)
In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Matt Wiggins brought our attention to Davidson Lifeline, a grassroots organization in Davidson, North Carolina whose mission is to support mental health awareness and suicide prevention in their community.
Catch the final episode in this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, where we’ve been considering Church After Mars Hill and using The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill as a case study. We’ve considered a number of aspects of that story:
Patriarchy and mutuality
Whiteness and diversity
Violent imagery and peace making
Toxic cultures and psychological health
Models of church
Art as transaction and transcendence
The move toward a Tov culture.
But as we come to the close of this conversation and the end of this season of the podcast, what are we to do now?
Join us for the final installment of Season 4 of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, as host Joel Kiekintveld shares his insightful perspectives.
If you’ve enjoyed this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, please spread the word and share it with your friends!
And if you would like to catch up or re-listen to any episode from this season, you can find them all, including show notes and transcripts, at transformingengagement.org/podcast
We’re joined by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.
Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew).
In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture.
Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures.
We hope you’ll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers.
In this episode of "Church After Mars Hill," host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Chelle Stearns to focus is on the intersection of art, expression, and theology within the modern Western church.
Many churches invest heavily in elements like worship teams, video production, and visual presentations. However, this often lends itself to one-way communication, prioritizing the leaders and visuals at the front of the room, rather than fostering genuine community-building and open conversations among the congregation.
The conversation centers on the modern church’s tendency to view art and worship in a consumer-oriented manner, rather than tapping into their potential to create communal connections.
What if we shifted away from using artistic expression as a transactional or manipulative tool, solely flowing from the stage to the congregation? What if, instead, we invited a communal expression of art, beauty, and wonder - even when it challenges our established beliefs?
By embracing art as a means of encountering the divine, deepening spirituality, and embracing the diverse expressions of beauty within our congregations, churches can create more meaningful and transformative experiences for their congregants and the community they serve.
In this episode, we explore a new perspective on church with Dr. Dwight Friesen, who asks us: "How do I start where I am? Wherever I am, how do I discover being church here?" Instead of viewing church as a megachurch attracting distant members, we shift our focus to being church in our own context.
We’re honored to be joined by Dr. Dwight Friesen, an Associate Professor of practical theology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, who is dedicated to rediscovering the true essence of being a church within a specific place and neighborhood.
To provide some context, Dwight shares his initial connection with Mark Driscoll, the founder of Mars Hill, during the mid-1990s when they were both starting as pastors in Seattle. They even considered merging their churches at one point, but theological differences and subsequent events led them to go their separate ways.
While Mark Driscoll went on to build a megachurch at Mars Hill, Dwight and his partner Lynette took a different approach. They emphasized the significance of community, proximity, and actively listening to the needs of their neighborhood. Instead of imposing a predetermined "church model," Dwight deliberately focused on understanding and addressing the specific needs of their immediate community.
This conversation challenges the traditional megachurch model, which often relies heavily on attracting new members for economic prosperity. Instead, it encourages us to explore how to be church in our current contexts and locations. By paying attention to the culture and listening to the needs of people in our own neighborhoods, we can bear witness to systemic forms of oppression and transformation. This awareness calls for a different kind of faithfulness—an active presence that engages with the realities of the moment.
Dwight raises a thought-provoking question: "How do we discover what it means to participate in what God is doing here without assuming what the good news should look like, but rather being open to discovery?"
As we continue to examine the case study that is Mars Hill Church, we’re asking a couple of questions in this conversation:
First, how do we create faith communities that know what abuses of power look like and call those behaviors out?
And second, how do we build environments that seek to be psychologically healthy for everyone?
Our guest this week is Doug Shirley, EdD, core faculty with The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology with expertise in counseling, Divinity, and pastoral community counseling. Doug's passion lies in understanding and improving the emotional, relational, and spiritual lives of individuals in helping and healing professions.
The sheer number of individuals seeking help for mental health issues following the Mars Hill debacle underscores the unhealthy nature of the church environment. Our conversation explores strategies for creating psychologically healthy spaces within faith communities, emphasizing the importance of two-way dialogue, accountability, openness, and honesty.
Mars Hill Church pastor Mark Driscoll was known to portray Jesus as a warrior or an “ultimate fighter” in his teachings. He wasn’t the only one. In the Western church, our society’s obsession with violence and militarism has found its way into our theology in subtle - and not so subtle - ways. But is this an accurate portrayal of Christ, the Prince of Peace?
This week, host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Joel Aguilar to talk about how we can construct our churches in a non-violent way by looking at scripture through the lens of the forgiving victim.
Supporting resources: * Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast * Dr. Aguilar presents the theories of mimetic desire and rivalry from René Girard in this conversation. You can read more about Girard's life and work here. * Other resources cited for further exploration: read the works of James Alison, Catholic theologian, priest, and author, and check out A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. * If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here. * Don’t miss an episode: Subscribe to Transforming Engagement, The Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Amazon Music (Audible)
As we continue our conversation about “Church After Mars hill,” host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by guest Dr. Ron Ruthruff, Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at The Seattle School of Psychology and Theology.
When examining the story of Mars Hill, there exists an underexplored theme of race and Whiteness. In his book "After Whiteness," Dr. Willie Jennings defines Whiteness as the embodiment of a self-sufficient man who embodies possession, mastery, and control. Driscoll's calls to White men tapped into not only male rage but also White rage, reflecting the desire for control and dominance. By exploring the missing elements in the Mars Hill discussion, our discussion aims to shed light on the intersection of Whiteness and the power dynamics within evangelical church culture.
Ron and Joel delve into the profound significance of addressing race and Whiteness within our systems, communities, and theological frameworks. They shed light on the far-reaching implications this exploration holds for the future of the church in a post-Mars Hill era. Through thought-provoking discussions, we’re challenged to moving beyond the safety of homogeneity and embrace differences within our faith communities.
We continue our conversation about Church After Mars Hill with dr. Rose Madrid Swetman, the Northwest Regional Leader of the Vineyard USA denomination and Associate Director at the Center for Transforming Engagement.
Dr. Swetman was previously interviewed for Christianity Today's podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" in Episode 5, titled "The Things We Do to Women."
The discussion revolves around the exposed vision of Mark Driscoll, former pastor of Mars Hill, which revealed a patriarchal and toxic theology concerning the roles of men and women. Dr. Swetman shares her experience in providing pastoral care for individuals who had left Mars Hill and discusses the importance of building faith communities that promote mutuality.
Tune as we explore ways to create faith communities that are inclusive and promote mutual respect among all members.
This season of the Transforming Engagement Podcast is a response to Christianity Today Media’s wildly popular podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
Hosted by contributor and pastor Joel Kiekintveld, we’re seeking to learn what we can from the case study that is Mars Hill Church in an effort to uncover what the church looks like after Mars Hill. After the destruction left by the collapse of that Seattle-based mega-church, the conversations in this podcast season are our offerings towards a rebuilding.
The term "deconstruction" is widely used in the Evangelical and post-Evangelical community, but what does it actually mean and what purpose does it serve? How does it relate to addressing the pain, anger, and disillusionment experienced in the wake of the fall of trusted leaders and churches like Mars Hill? Furthermore, how does it influence our relationship with institutions, communities, and our own spirituality?
In the first episode of this season, host Joel Kiekintveld engages in a conversation with Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School for Theology and Psychology and co-founder of the Center for Transforming Engagement. With his unique perspective as a leader of a faith-centered institution in Seattle, Derek sheds light on the cyclic process of deconstruction and rebuilding at the institutional level, within our communities, and in our own faith journeys.
This season of the Transforming Engagement Podcast is a response to Christianity Today Media’s wildly popular podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
As listeners of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, we could take two approaches: one as a mere observation of a captivating soap opera, providing voyeuristic pleasure through the shocking and scandalous true story of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. The other option is to utilize it as an opportunity for introspection, allowing us to examine our own involvement in personality-driven spirituality and dysfunctional church systems, seeking lessons from Mars Hill's downfall to shape our future.
Hosted by contributor and pastor Joel Kiekintveld, we’re seeking to learn what we can from the case study that is Mars Hill Church in an effort to uncover what the church looks like after Mars Hill. After the destruction left by the collapse of that Seattle-based mega-church, the conversations in this podcast season are our offerings towards a rebuilding.
In this final episode of our Clergy Burnout series, co-hosts Dr. J. Derek McNeil and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, revisit the many rich conversations they’ve had with our guests this season and highlight some of the key takeaways for pastors and leaders. We hope these conversations have supported you as you strive to understand the identity and purpose of your faith community in the midst of changing contexts.
Thank you for listening! As you engage with these podcast episodes, we’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas for future topics you’d like to hear us engage. You can send your feedback to us at transforming@theseattleschool.edu.
This week we’re talking to Bishop Melissa Skelton, who currently serves as Bishop Provisional for the Diocese of Olympia. In our conversation, we look at understanding the identity of your church, not only at the level of your local congregation but within your denomination or your greater faith tradition. Bishop Skelton highlights the importance of understanding the heritage and origin story of your congregation and your denomination, and how to sift through stories from the past to discern which are useful to telling our stories now.
When you set out to determine your organization’s identity, there are a few key questions to ask yourself that go beyond your mission or vision statements. This week, we’re joined by CEO and founder of Motis, Rick Beaton, PhD.
Rick brings his expertise in people, culture, leadership and management, corporate identity, belief systems, and social psychology to provide a framework for taking an honest look at your organization to discover its internal and external identity.
Each week, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing good in the world. Rick calls our attention to West Texas Counseling & Guidance, a group that provides mental health services to underprivileged people at scale in northwest Texas and into New Mexico. You can learn more about supporting their work here: https://www.sanangelocounseling.org/
Kate and Derek are joined by longtime friend, Linda Wagener, PhD, who is the Chief Culture Officer at Blink. With over 35 years of experience in organizational leadership, training, and research, her role with Blink is to build a resilient work culture that enhances employee engagement and productivity.
Linda’s expertise in cultivating and preserving a values-centered and unified workplace culture can be applied across organizational types. If you are in church leadership, we think you’ll discover some fundamentals to glean from a corporate setting and apply to your church organization.
Each week, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good in the world. Linda calls our attention to US Fish and Wildlife, the federal government agency whose primary responsibility is to manage fish and wildlife resources in the public trust for people today and future generations. You can learn more about supporting their work through the volunteer opportunities on their website.
Welcome back to Episode 2 of Season 3 of Transforming Engagement, The Podcast. This season, we’re talking about organizational identity and the role of the leader.
In this episode, we spoke with Pastor Gail Song Bantum about her identity as a second-generation Korean woman and as a pastor and leader, and Quest’s identity as a congregation in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle. As a leader of a “multi church,” Gail Song Bantum describes how her identity impacts her congregation’s identity and, in turn, how it is understood both by congregation members and the community at large.
In each episode, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing work. Gail Song Bantum brought our attention to Good Foot Arts Collective, an organization with a passionate focus on ending violence before it begins, providing domestic abuse awareness and youth violence prevention advocacy through Arts Education.
We’re starting a new series on the podcast about organizational identity - a topic that, co-host Dr. J. Derek McNeil admits at the beginning of this episode - can sound somewhat dry. But here’s why it’s important:
Most of us have some sense of our personal identities. But when you’re leading a group of people, whether that’s a small town congregation or a multinational corporation, you as a leader need to consider your group’s collective identity.
When a group discovers their organizational identity, its members can unite behind a common purpose and shared goals to confront problems, engage challenges, and make real impact – together.
In this first episode of Season 3, Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement, discuss their work in supporting churches in their work to discover their organizational identity. In the midst of shifting contexts, this work is more important than ever. What is the mission of your church? What are you called to be? Who belongs to your church - and how are you creating a sense of belonging for them?
If you are the leader of a church or faith-based organization working to re-discover your church’s identity and serve your congregants and community better, we think this episode will be especially valuable to you.
As you listen to this season, please let us know what you think. We value your thoughts and questions!
Pastors, we hope today’s theme of vulnerability resonates with you. In this mini-episode, you’ll hear wise words from Dr. Jessica Young Brown, Donnell Wyche, Karlene Clark, Martha Wood, and Trevor Grindle. You can get the links to these full episodes on our website at transformingengagement.org/podcast
If you’re a pastor and you’re feeling overworked and overwhelmed - it’s not just you. We’re revisiting a few clips from our Clergy Burnout podcast series that talk about how pastors are overworked and under supported - and how congregations and denominations can change that.
You’ll hear some words from Kate Rae Davis, Rose Madrid Swetman, Dr. Jessica Young Brown, and Anne Helen Petersen. If you want to listen further, you can get the links to these full episodes on our website at transformingengagement.org/podcast
This week, we’re sharing some of our favorite insightful moments from Season 2 of the Transforming Engagement podcast. These clips dive into two of the leading causes of clergy burnout: politics and the pandemic.
In this mini-episode, you’ll hear wise words from Elizabeth Riley, Anne Helen Petersen, Lisa Sharon Harper, Rose Madrid Swetman, and Justin White. You can get the links to these full episodes on our website at transformingengagement.org/podcast
These clips from Season 2 of Transforming Engagement, The Podcast, explore some of the pressures that lead to clergy burnout and how to recognize the symptoms of burnout in your mind and body.
One of the leading causes of pressure, frustration, and burnout for pastors is a bad theology of self-sacrifice. In this mini-episode, you’ll hear wise words from Rose Madrid Swetman, Mandy Smith, Lisa Sharon Harper, and Kate Rae Davis. You can get the links to these full episodes on our website at transformingengagement.org/podcast
In this final episode of our Clergy Burnout series, co-hosts Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, DMin, revisit the many rich conversations they’ve had with our guests this season.
In these conversations, we heard new perspectives, learned new things, and confirmed so much of the research that’s out there right now on clergy burnout. It’s real. It’s present. We hope that this has been a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations have given you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your faith community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.
What’s next? We invite you to join us in our fall session of Way of Life, which focuses on small shifts in our daily rhythms to bring more purpose, intention, and mindfulness to our lives as we lean into our calling. Enrollment is open through September 30, 2022 on our website at transformingengagement.org/online-courses
You can also explore our other online courses:
In Centering Prayer, you can learn to intentionally cultivate a richer prayer life and relationship with the Divine.
In Career & Call, you’ll learn a process of discovery and discernment that you can use over and over again in making life decisions both now and in the future as it relates to your calling.
In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we’re joined by Lisa Sharon Harper, founder and president of Freedom Road, which helps organizations in multiple sectors do justice. She's a speaker, writer, and most recently the author of Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World. She also hosts the Freedom Road podcast and co-hosts The FOUR podcast.
Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this episode digs into the systemic and cultural norms that have influenced the roles of our pastors. Lisa begins by defining the role of a pastor, which she says is to “not only to help us to connect with God on a personal level, but to help us all to understand our relationship with God and how that needs to impact our relationship with each other and the rest of creation.” If our pastors can truly focus on protecting the image of God, particularly in the “least of these” in our communities - and if we, as congregants, will support them in doing so - then many of the pressures that lead to burnout could be abated.
In this conversation, Lisa invites us to consider the impacts of a Western version of Christianity and reimagine what the Kingdom of God truly looks like, starting with honoring and defending the image of God in all humans.
Each episode, we’re asking our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. This week, Lisa calls our attention to several organizations:
Red Letter Christians
Justice Revival
Be the Bridge *
Christians for Social Action *
In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we’re joined by a panel of three individuals who have recently left the pastorate. Karlene Clark, Trevor Grindle, and Martha Wood vulnerably share their experience with burnout and the pressures that ultimately led to them choosing to walk away from their leadership roles.
Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this discussion explores themes of doubt, grief, illness, and trauma, and the incongruity that is felt when encountering very real, human experiences while trying to live up to the expectations of a church leadership role.
We hope that this is a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations will be enlightening and give you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.
In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we’re joined by writer and journalist Anne Helen Petersen, to take a look at clergy burnout through systemic and cultural perspectives.
Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this discussion centers around the warning signs of burnout and the potential impact that addressing burnout - or letting it go unnoticed - can have on pastors and their communities. We discuss practical ways that pastors can foster greater awareness and care for their own physical and mental health, and how congregants can also grow in awareness to step in and support their pastors.
We hope that this is a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations will be enlightening and give you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.
Each episode, we’re asking our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. This week, Anne points us to Mutual Aid, which are grassroots, local organizations committed to freely providing funds and resources to community members in need. Find your local Mutual Aid by typing “Mutual Aid (your city)” in your search engine.
In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we’re joined by a panel of three clergy members to discuss the challenges they are facing in their current contexts and what keeps them going.
You’ll hear different vantage points but common challenges: How do I continue to show up for my community, stay true to the Gospel, and stay true to who I am called to be?
We’re grateful to our guests, Rev. Justin White, Rev. Elizabeth Riley, and Rev. Donnell T. Wyche, as they vulnerably share their perspectives with us.
In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we’re joined by Mandy Smith, pastor and author. Mandy talks about the importance of limitations in ministry. Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this discussion provides special insight into the ways that female church leaders in particular may be subject to additional pressures in their profession that can lead to defensiveness or exhaustion. However, the conversation always comes back to the hope, grace, and rest to which God is calling us.
We hope that this is a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations will be enlightening and give you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.
Each episode, we’re asking our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. This week, we invite you to learn more about BLOC Ministries, a neighborhood organization in Cincinnati, Ohio, with a myriad of offerings to their local community including art programs, sports training, a jail ministry, and youth homes. BLOC was created to build connections and safe spaces for students, families and adults to thrive and succeed in spite of difficult circumstances. They are a faith-based non-profit that focuses on healthy, personal relationships and activities that help to build hope, purpose, and vital life skills. You can learn more at http://www.onebloc.org/
In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we’re joined by Dr. Jessica Young Brown, Licensed Clinical Psychologist, author, and consultant to churches and community organizations on mental health, trauma, race and racism, and organizational dynamics.
Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this discussion centers around the warning signs of burnout and the potential impact that addressing burnout - or letting it go unnoticed - can have on pastors and their communities. We discuss practical ways that pastors can foster greater awareness and care for their own physical and mental health, and how congregants can also grow in awareness to step in and support their pastors.
We hope that this is a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations will be enlightening and give you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.
Each episode, we’re asking our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. This week, Dr. Jessica Young Brown is shining a light on Pathways 2 Promise, https://www.pathways2promise.org/ , whose mission is to collaborate with faith, spiritual, and non-spiritual communities to share resources that assess, educate and effect change to welcome, support, engage and include persons with mental illnesses and those who care for them.
Welcome to Season 2 of Transforming Engagement, The Podcast. In this series of episodes, we’re discussing the pressing topic of clergy burnout. With increasing demands on their roles, unrelenting stress, and inadequate support, studies show that one in three pastors is at risk of burnout.
How can we provide better support, training, and care to our clergy to equip and encourage them to stay in their calling?
In this season, we’re talking with current and former pastors, counselors, authors, and advocates. We’re digging in to learn more about the risk factors that contribute to burnout and how pastors and congregations can recognize the warning signs. We’ll also discuss practical strategies for clergy self-care and ways that congregations can better support the clergy that support them.
As we continue our conversation about embodying community, we spoke with Coté Soerens, neighborhood pastor from the South Park neighborhood in Seattle, about what it means to belong to a neighborhood, the role of listening and prayer, and unexpected ways to encounter God.
In this conversation about embodied community with Jimmy McGee, CEO and President of Impact Movement, Inc., we dig into the ways in which technology, the pandemic, and a generational shift are affecting the way we socialize with our communities. From sitting around a pot of gumbo in New Orleans with cousins to connecting over Zoom, join us as we consider how the elements of an embodiment are evolving.
We connected with psychiatrist and author Curt Thompson, MD, on a Zoom call as we were all navigating the Omicron surge. As we talked about what an embodied community means, we could not escape the context of the COVID19 pandemic. This conversation is full of longing to be in the physical presence of one another, the challenges that arise as we begin to re-enter into community with others, and how we can approach the next season with open ears and hearts, ready to listen and engage with one another.
Are you curious to know what we’re trying to accomplish with the Center for Transforming Engagement? Get to know the people, the ideas, and the hopes and dreams for cascading change in the pilot episode of “Transforming Engagement,” the new podcast from CTE. Listen as the founders, Kate Rae Davis, MDiv and Dr. J. Derek McNeil, discuss the need for healing in our communities and why we need to transform the ways in which we engage one another to experience true healing. We invite you to join us as we embark on this journey together.