The Beautiful Pursuit: Recent Episodes
Antoinette McDonald
Is there anything more beautiful than the pursuit of Love Himself? The Beautiful Pursuit Podcast is like a falling into the deep well of worship and never climbing out. To live encouraged. Inspired. And built up in Love.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu said, ‘If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.’
Whiteness, privilege, racism, justice and mercy, Jesus and The Church - this is conversation that I’m grateful to have had and that I want to keep having. I am particularly passionate about the kind of God loving and God following that’s not just skin deep - that challenges us to go into the depths where we allow God to search and to soften, to convict and to counsel, to recalibrate and release.
I’m joined by Siviwe & Marcia Notshe. They are the Lead Pastors at Every Nation Church Bryanston - which they planted with a few friends in Jan 2020. They’ve been in ministry for over 13 years and also served as missionaries to South Korea for 2 years. They’ve been married for 12 years and together have three children.
I sat down with Marsh and Siv one winters afternoon at my dining room table. We laughed. And cried. And got angry. You’ll hear kids and dogs in the background and the occasional hand slams on the table - a real, raw and passionate conversation. Just how I like chats around my table. This is not the most comfortable interview I’ve ever done but words create worlds and I am thankful to Marsh and Siv for the worlds they’ve opened up inside of me through this podcast. May these words openup your world as they open up your heart.
We recorded this podcast a few weeks after the horrifying footage and story of George Floyd broke…His death has powered a movement against police brutality and racial injustice. One journalist referred to Floyds death as a time stamp in the prolonged history of violence against black people…Oceans away, here in South Africa, my country, we are not strangers to the stories of violent policing that maintains white supremacy. Any finger pointing at the US has a whole hand pointing back at us in our deep-seated racism and massively unequal society. These incidents are symptoms of a larger disease. The damage done over centuries that we enslaved black people - the true evil being the stories we have created and written and handed down that black people aren’t as good as white people, and aren’t the equals of white people, that they are less evolved, less human, less capable, less worthy, less deserving than white people.
With all this in mind, I wanted to talk - but more than that I wanted to listen. I wanted to hear….
And I’d love to hear from you too.
And if you’d like to download the beautiful music you hear on this episode - https://music.apple.com/za/album/promises-ep/1412386478 Unforseen by Sean Williams, Rebirth & Compass: https://ampl.ink/emkEO
Welcome to Episode 11 of The Beautiful Pursuit! I am so excited to share this one! Its very special! It was a wonderful conversation - one which I’ve chewed on for weeks - with author, leader and prophet Julian Adams…Also a South African! Yay! There is wisdom for every day in this one and even more perspective for the season we face now - the ups and downs of a world in pandemic. We speak mainly about Julians latest book - Terra Nova, New Earth. Its out now - you can order online … I’m definitely getting my own copy. Julian shares such powerful and inspiring examples of the kingdom coming to earth - real things going on here in South Africa actually - and I love how heaven touching earth makes earth more beautiful - not more Christian - more beautiful! We are not here to create little sub cultures - we are here to bring the culture of heaven into every place and space and person on earth!
If you don’t know of Julian and his dynamic wife (a brilliant teacher) Katia, you are going to love their podcast Frequentsee. And their other books. I’ve been working through Katia’s book Equal for some time and can’t wait to talk to her in the coming months. She also runs brilliant devotionals and bible studies online from time to time. Sign up and follow these guys.
Speaking of following - please rate TBP on iTunes and leave a review. It’s such a help in spreading the word and growing this podcast. I love these conversations and how different we all are - there is such beauty in listening to one another and being inspired in our own beautiful pursuits.
So enjoy listening to the humility and love and wisdom pouring out of Julian in this ep. He is a director of teaching and equipping ministry Frequentsee and leader of The Table Boston - a new church-plant in that city. He is an author, spiritual advisor, revelatory teacher and leadership consultant in political, business and creative spheres. An internationally recognised prophet, Julian has a proven track record in the fulfilment of words released over individuals, communities and nations. He is a director for NEWDAY United, a charity based here in South Africa and England that serves the poor and vulnerable in SA.
Grab a cup of something warm if you’re in this hemisphere - and lose yourself here for the next hour or so. I felt particularly inspired to write down some thoughts after the segment where Julian speaks about dreaming with God and the prophetic imagination - the possibilities of reimagining our worlds with the creator! Reminded me of this phrase The Helsers say a lot: the same voice that created the heavens and the earth, is inside of you and waiting to recreate you and your world. Happy listening, happy dreaming - and happy being awoken to more!
PS: We recorded this interview on Zoom and I’ve uploaded the uncut version onto YouTube if you want to take a look there :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wWxWbCuewk&t=1046s
PPS: I keep a transcript of each interview. Here are some of the gems you might want to read again and again. And again
Speaking about growing up with a “cleft palate”
It impacted my speech and my hearing and I had all sorts of other health implications which is a very interesting thing to have grown up with because it produced an incredible sense of insecurity and fear of people because I sounded so different …There wasn’t a day throughout my school career where somebody didn't make fun of me because of how I sounded… So I really hated my voice and hated the sound of my voice but you know how it is with God - He takes the thing that you think is the weakest and he turns it around to be used to bring judgment against the works of darkness. And so, the thing that I thought disqualified me from speaking into spaces and influencing people is now the thing that God is empowering in terms of my speech and my ability to hear..
What this particular health journey has taught Julian about the nature of God
I think there's an internal resolve and value system that God has put in me around suffering
and understanding the process of difficulty and the first thing is that I will not allow my unanswered questions to override the revealed goodness of God and character of God in Jesus that we see in Scripture.
Jesus is God made visible and the Bible says he is the perfect picture which means that how
Jesus deals with sickness, how Jesus deals with women and people of different races, how Jesus deals with world events - in all of those contexts he always brings peace he always brings he always brings life…
And so even though I might not understand what's happening right now - I'm not gonna allow the mystery to override the revelation of God in Jesus. And so it has solidified that God is kinder than we think - and he solidified that he is better than we to ever anticipate and then he's incredibly good and that I do not need to sacrifice the nature of God's goodness and his love alongside or at the altar of his sovereignty just because he is sovereign doesn't mean that he has allowed this but he's working on my behalf to bring a good resolution…
Speaking about the angry prophets…
God's not angry! He's kind, he's not actually out to smite people. The happiest prophet that ever lived was Jesus and we get to join that ministry! Everything else is inferior…
Speaking about healing
I love what Bill Johnson says - using a poker analogy he says God can win with a pair of two's in his hand and the reality is no matter where I find myself – God is using every moment to produce faith and expectation of his goodness.
Speaking about Kingdom
My life is meant to provoke a questioning heart in those that have not ever come into the kingdom …
Jesus says I came to seek and save that which was lost not just those who were lost – that actually there's a physical substance that God wants to redeem called the earth …
Jesus came as a big supreme example; he came not as a conquering king and as some would understand or as the Jewish leaders of the day expected, but he came as a suffering servant as one who went low and slow in order to affect change…
The kingdom doesn't look like a Sunday morning service; it doesn't look like Christian lingo; it doesn't look like Christian television - but what it does look like is bringing peace, bringing beauty, bringing health, bringing life, bringing common grace in such a way that people go, “what is it about this environment.. why is this charged with the sense of heaven?”…
Speaking about the season (Covid19) and releasing Terra Nova now
Because of the good news - even in the season of plague, even in the season of disaster – it was the church who set the tone for redemption and we're living in this season of COVID 19 which seems really crazy and I'm like – no, the church sets the tone… rather than getting caught up in conspiracy theories- we get to be a picture of heaven on earth …
That’s the motive of the book is like actually God's kingdom has come and is coming we get to be the prophetic outpost so that it looks a little bit like heaven on earth and people want to get in.. It’'s not just about good works, it's not just about miracles- it’s about a government of peace that is established on the Earth that makes all things new…
You know the word shalom literally means the peace of God coming so that everything is as He always intended it to be.
To quote on my favourites: Bishop NT Wright: Surprised by Hope - heaven is not a detached reality but it's a coexisting reality and that God's government of peace is now coming on the earth so that those realities are married.
Reading the season
What we need to understand is that today, during Corona, God is overthrowing the systems
that have prevented people from coming into worship…
Why plant a local church in Boston?
I still believe that the church is the most beautiful expression of what heaven looks like on earth… There's no other context that gathers such different, diverse groups, different cultures - people from different racial backgrounds, different cultures, and puts them in one space… She's not monochrome or monoculture but diverse because God is glorified in diversity.
…The best way to see the kingdom come - is in community and in family - because the culture of the kingdom is family - that's the currency of the kingdom… Jesus establishes his kingdom - God's kingdom on the earth in the context of family So there is this dynamic of Trinitarian family that we build our life around and the life of the church. And when church is done right - we teach people how to think not what to think, and we release a kingdom dynamic into the hearts of thinking believers – and we get to see change…
My prayer is that the church we establish will not produce more full-time ministers but will produce more businesspeople, more teachers, more doctors, more educators, more creatives, more entrepreneurs so that they begin to impact society.
Restoration of equality to gender
And then the other thing is one of the big things that we focussing on is that God is bringing a restoration of equality to gender - to male and female relationships in their uniqueness. This is
not about a feminist movement but this is about what it looks like for men and women to fully represent God together as male and his female. So my wife will actually be leading the team. I will be graciously and joyfully submitting to her leadership not because she's a woman but because she's gifted and a woman and we wanted to see that restored in a healthy way because we've seen liberal agendas highjack equality in the church and it's become about feminism or a liberal expression rather than about what the Bible speaks to us about how men and women are to work together and operate in full authority and full equality.
We want to see communities that aren't threatened to hit that and to establish it as a healthy expression of the kingdom of God on earth!
Imagination and reimagining with God
Imagination is the blank cheque of faith…
One of the things I think God wants us to do in this season, is to reimagine…
Because he's invited us to dream with him. He’s not looking to give us orders or commands: dream about a world where there is no human trafficking or where my area of influence comes under the grace and leadership of Jesus. And heaven is established. Dream up ways to see it happen. We get to partner with Him.
You know Walter Brueggemann who's an amazing prophetic voice to our generation and theologian
he talks about this concept of reimagining and so I want to reimagine things.. So for example - compassion is counterculture… imagine a church extremely compassionate. What we've done is be compassionate for those who look like us and feel like us and agree with us and so we think that that's great. Compassion is so counterculture because compassion says I want to make sure that everyone is ok, not just me…
Ask yourself, how do I be counterculture?
Emotional and Spiritual Intelligence
We live in the season where there is an abundance of information on emotional intelligence - you know I think of people like Brené Brown - all these people are speaking on emotional
intelligence which is so important but I wonder if we understood that we are supposed to harness emotional intelligence with spiritual intelligence..
ENDS
One sunny afternoon in late December 2018, I sat down, face-to-face with Suzy Yaraei in Johannesburg and recorded this interview. She was in SA from North Carolina on a sabbatical at the time and she generously gave me an afternoon to chat and record. I remember laughing a lot. I remember having a cry afterwards too - she has a way of unearthing things - deep things in your heart.
Suzy is a force. She’s trained and raised up some of the world’s most influential worship leaders and songwriters. The Helsers, John Mark and Sarah McMillan, Misty Edwards, Kim Walker, Josh Baldwin…the list goes on. She’s a mother and a leader in the worship movement. She has a trail of trail blazers behind her - all making and leaving a legacy behind them. I’ve heard many of them honour her for the key role she has played in their lives. Prior to co leading the Worship Department at MorningStar Ministries with the legendary Don Potter, Suzy was a backup singer for Reba McEntire, Wynonna Judd, and several other successful recording artists out of Nashville, Tennessee.
Suzy is married to the most wonderful man, Kamran. Kamran is a former Shite Muslim. He oozes love and peace and just being around Him you want to know and love Jesus more. Thats for another podcast! Together they are dynamite. In our chat she shares about their latest project - a television show broadcast into The Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Suzy gets so excited talking about what she describes as their great honour of ministering to millions of Muslims in the fastest growing church in the world - the Iranian Church. Together they are using their platform for all the things worship platforms should be used for - to draw people to Jesus. Their stories are wild. And true. You will be inspired and encouraged.
What I love the most about this episode is the strong thread that runs though it. It’s a thread that only The Holy Spirit could weave. This thread is bold and brave and requires that you be you and I be me. And in that we become more like the true sons and daughters we were created to be.
Anyway - in a perfect world this would have been the first episode of 2019. Oops. Here we are in April 2020 and I am FINALLY releasing our lengthy, weighty, and very precious conversation. The world as we know it, is far from perfect.
Why my delay? In 2019 I chose to homeschool our eldest, Sam. He was doing Grade 2 at the time and I was over ambitious as to what would be possible that year with that on my plate. My yes to Sam and the demands of homeschool, plus the other commitments in our life with family, business and ministry - meant that I had to say no to some other things. Many times I felt stretched too thin and had lots to learn about rest. There was just no headspace to podcast. But, I was on my own beautiful pursuit…
There were days in 2019 when I thought this episode would never come out. That I wouldn’t be able to edit it, ever, and that I would have to write Suzy an email one day and apologise for my fail. I am so grateful I pushed through and that Suzy is so gracious - never once putting any pressure on me. In fact, she sent me a message one day saying she would not be phased if the interview never came out. Instead she has pursued a connection with me and for that I am deeply impacted and grateful. She is the real deal.
I am grateful that the Lord locks truth up in timeless packages - that even though we chatted in December 2018, this podcast has its place in April 2020 when the world feels upside down. I was jogging one morning in December 2019 and I felt the Lord say that 2020 would be a year that would establish deep things in us - things that would change our lives forever and mark us into eternity. Fast-forward to another morning jog in January 2020 and I was asking the Lord if I’d ever record another podcast and where to even start. He told me to return to the audio with Suzy because there was gold there. To finish that one. To release it and to know that He was on it and in it. Yay God!
Enjoy! Please rate this podcast on iTunes - its the best way to spread the love and help us grow.
Much love, Ant.
Here’s a link to Kamran and Suzy’s Ministry - https://www.ksministry.org/
A link to Suzy’s amazing book, War and Paradise https://www.amazon.com/War-Paradise-Suzy-Yaraei-ebook/dp/B006ZAXBQY
And some YouTube links you want :) https://www.youtube.com/user/Kamranyaraei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmG5bo92Cd4
Suzy mentions some remarkable people in this episode - check them out…
Stephen Roach - http://www.thebreathandtheclay.com/stephen-roach
Luke Skaggs & The Cageless Birds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-SR7Xc0yhM&t=671s
Jonathan & Melissa Helser - https://www.jonathanhelser.com
John Mark McMillan - https://www.johnmarkmcmillan.com
Don Potter - https://www.potterschoolhaus.com
After a very long break…I am back dear friends. Thank you to each one of you who messaged over the year to ask where I was and when a new episode would be released. You gave me courage and hope and inspiration! There are seasons when you go quiet and be still and give your yes to one space and your no to another. I never planned to have no headspace for podcasting while I was homeschooling my delightful son - but that’s exactly what happened. And there were days when I felt sad that I wasn’t podcasting. I have this incredible (live) interview with the amazing Suzy Yaraei to release. And another with one of my favourite musical couples - Sean and Jannine Williams. Watch this space.
Anyway… My darling littles started at a new and very beautiful school this year. I thought I’d have all the time in the world to podcast. Mmm. Not so much. And then the world went and changed in ways we couldn’t have ever imagined it would. And suddenly we are all homeschooling.
With COVID-19 and this global pandemic arriving in our neighborhoods, we are all grappling with a new way of living. A significant number of people all over the world have been thrust into homeschooling. One of the most googled questions at the moment is 'how do I homeschool?'... Wrapped up in a very strange, new world - there may just be gifts for us all. What if one of these is having our children at home, around the table? What if we are forever altered by this space - in beautiful ways we haven't even begun to imagine? May this conversation inspire your anxious heart and give you courage to take back your home, your space, your family and your relationships with your children.
Thank you to my friend Kirstin Maud for adding her powerful voice to this conversation.
Shout out to one of my favourite homeschooling (and life in general) resources, The Big Life Journal. Thanks for all the love you’ve poured into your work.
This is my final episode for 2018 and what a way to close with Jason Upton. This was a bucket list interview for me. I’ve loved his music and worship since I first heard it in 2003.
This conversation is deep and profound. I think you’ll want to listen again and again and again like I have … because if you hang around a little longer and dig a little deeper, you’ll be surprised what you never heard the first time.
The backdrop of so much of this interview came out of a question about one song back on his REMEMBER album - called FLY. A song that was recorded live and where it seems like an angel joins in and sings with Jason. Upton seemed to me - almost uncomfortable at first chatting about it - not wanting to draw attention to himself - not wanting to take from the mystery of that moment and define it I guess … But out of that question he so beautifully answers so much more than I asked for - he gives away the depth of his heart and it flows like a river full of life into topics like spontaneity and modern worship, mystery and certainty, memory and remembrance, the important of listening and waiting.
There is a section where he speaks about Jesus being the ultimate worship leader - the one who turns the desolate places into promised lands…
He mentioned he was keen to chat again in the new year after recording his new album. Maybe then we can also talk about chat about his profound adoption story.
I did manage to sneak in a question about his revelation on the daddy heart of God… And one of my favourite parts of our conversation is when he speak about what encourages his heart about the church in 2018. He quotes Eugene Peterson - “everyones is so down on the church but can you imagine the world without her…” I love that!
From my side - a huge thank you for supporting the beautiful pursuit. Every month we are climbing in downloads by the hundreds and that’s so encouraging to me. Thank you for your feedback and I wish you all a beautiful Christmas and a wonderful new year. May you rest deeply this festive season, and contemplate and take time to give thanks.
To my incredible husband and children. My community. Thank you amazing family and friends who have helped make this possible this year. And last but by no means least - my brilliant co producer and incredible sound designer - Sean Williams, thank you!
Until next year- enjoy falling into this well my friends…
…”Human flourishing is not a mechanical process; it's an organic process. And you cannot predict the outcome of human development. All you can do, like a farmer, is create the conditions under which they will begin to flourish.” - Ken Robinson
Welcome to The Beautiful Pursuit, Episode 7 with Kirstin Maud.
Hello dear friends. I am SO excited to bring you this episode – it’s different! But much closer to home, my home.
I recently had the privilege of being on an online internship with one of my heroes – Seth Godin. Seth ran a Podcast Fellowship with an amazing woman and podcaster Alex Di Palma. I was particularly challenged in one of the lessons where they encouraged us to START SMALL when it came to our podcast. By that they meant - don’t rush out and try get big names – well known folk – start with the ten closest people to you. Having already started my podcast – I felt stumped for a few days. I had started pretty big. Shot high and hit target a few times too.
And while they encouraged me that some can start big and it works - I loved the principle of starting small. I loved the idea of inviting you a closer into my world and into my beautiful pursuit. I made a list of the ten people (and more) that have fundamentally impacted and influenced my world and what I believed they would add to this podcast. I got really excited about the unique offerings they’d make and the fact that you could share in the inspiration and honesty, the vulnerability and the breakthrough of some pretty dynamic humans that I get to call my closest friends.
I am thrilled to introduce one of my absolute best humans and friends to you - Kirstin Maud. And one of the wisest most joyful women I know!
Kirstin and her amazing husband Rob have been married 20 years this year. They have three delightful children Madison, Milla and Jude – whom Kirsti home-schools. Together with Kirstin’s brother Sebastian, Rob and Kirstin founded one of South Africa’s most exciting coffee brands – Motherland Coffee Company. Motherland recently turned 8 and is built on sustainability and fair trade principles - you will find their café’s popping up all over Johannesburg and Cape Town – with plans for international growth too. And if you’ve been listening since Episode 1 – you heard Martin Smith and Jonathan and Melissa Helser mention the goodness that is Motherland Coffee in their episodes!
Kirstin and Rob founded and own other successful business. These visionaries also lead the thriving and beautiful church community that my husband Rowan and I and our two little ones call home- and we serve as leaders in. The Collective Church in Johannesburg. You can take a look and a listen for more on The Collective Church online…
My friendship with Kirstin goes back almost 15 years. You know those friends who become family – people you have so much history with. We’ve lived on the same property at one point, served on leadership teams together, travelled together, witnessed each others life’s major and minor events from (things like) our wedding and the birth of my children to the glorious ordinary moments of countless coffee’s and meals. In the last few years we’ve walked deeper than ever – both our families hugely impacted by time with The Helsers at their ministry A Place For The Heart. As a result we joined Rob and Kirstin with other dear friends of ours Janine and Sean Williams (who’s music you often hear on TBP) and we formed a ministry– hosting short retreats and worship nights – which later evolved into The Collective Church. Our great passion is to see others coming alive in their identity as children of God – living wholehearted lives and pursuing Him in everything.
In the midst of prepping to host a Heart Journey Retreat in 2017, Kirstin encouraged us one night as a team to get a 20 years vision for our family and our lives. She spoke about being planted deeply but having wings for the world. She spoke about vision in a way I’ve never heard anyone speak. I knew in that moment that I was hearing a message that was destined to literally go around the world. It was dripping in hope and life and I wished I’d heard it ten years ago and that everyone I loved could hear it. Here we are in this episode talking about and unpacking that message!
She lives this simple yet profound message. Together with Rob she is a big dreamer. Their family talk about grand adventures like building a house or going on a world trip and then schedule it. And I’ve watched them do it twice. They have faith and courage to literally walk out their dreams… Their lives are inspiring to so many.
So here I am learning from my friend again – inviting you to do the same. My hope is that you will inspired and filled with courage to dust off your own heart longings and dreams and to partner with God to see the impossible made possible in your life!
Want to know which mindsets successful people have? How committed they are to getting their thought life under control? Thoughts are real things that occupy mental real estate. Dr Caroline Leaf talks about her latest book THINK LEARN SUCCEED and how you use your mind to change your brain. Hopeful and inspiring - she’ll give you insight and tools to make the changes you need to flourish.
I spoke to Charlotte-based singer- and platinum selling songwriter John Mark McMillan just after releasing his 6thalbum and coming off a 35 City Tour in the USA to promote it. Many are familiar with his name especially after he wrote the song “How He Loves” and everyone from Kim Walker and Jesus Culture to the David Crowder Band, and Flyleaf covered the song. Years later churches around the globe are still singing that song week after week too.
I was impacted by John Mark’s incredible depth and tenderness – his vulnerability and profound grasp on the humanity of Jesus. I loved his thoughts on friendship and seeking out relationships with people who aren’t like us…
There’s a potent segment of this interview on vulnerability too.
In this episode, I chat to international bestselling author, William Paul Young. Young’s book The Shack has sold more than 20 million copies worldwide and been translated into more than 40 different languages. In this interview we speak about The Shack and its success, as well as looking into his latest book, Lies We Believe About God.
This is Part 2 of an interview with Jonathan David & Melissa Helser. In this episode they kick off by speaking vulnerably about Melissa's journey with chronic pain as a result of a rare bone disease she has been struggling with since she was 17. I asked her about self-pity, bitterness and disappointment in God. How she's managed her heart through such tough seasons. Jonathan speaks about this from his perspective as her husband and best friend. Its incredible stuff. And for those of you who want to hear the delightful story of how Bethel Music signed the Helsers – its all in this episode.
I’ve heard Jonathan Helser say before that the more heaven comes to earth – the more earth looks like family. I love that so much of what they speak about in building a ministry – is much like building a family.
Listen to Martin Smith, the man who's penned some of the modern churches best loved songs, speak about life, marriage, family and his deep passion for God and making music. His latest album Army of Bones is available on iTunes and Martin shares the heart behind this record. Be inspired on your own Beautiful Pursuit!
What a way to kickstart The Beautiful Pursuit. Martin Smith was one of my favorite interviews back in 2008 when I was freelance writing and producing for Integrity Music. I happened to be in London when the opportunity arose to interview him. My husband Rowan and I woke up at sparrows one morning to get from London to Brighton to interview Martin in his hometown at his favorite coffee shop. That was fun! He'd recently closed Delirious and was working on an inspiring project called CompassionArt.
To interview Martin again almost 10 years later was an honor. He's a humble, gentle giant - so honoring and unassuming. When you speak with him, you collide with depth - depth of heart and soul, depth of integrity in his pursuit of God. His answers don't come cheap. They were birthed and fought for - you can feel it for yourself when you listen.
Martin is an inspiring musician and songwriter - download his new record Army of Bones - its layered with stories and struggles - he says it's a record about "the pursuit of staying together".
I loved so much about this conversation. I loved his honest and grounded assessment of 23 years of marriage to Anna. I loved what he said about faith and danger - how following the Lord is always pretty dangerous: you give your all, you set your ego aside, and you pursue wholeheartedly. And I loved what he said about how our gifting is not just for "the church" but for the world too.
Can't wait for this podcast to go live on December 1st and to hear your thoughts...