Denizen - SoundSage

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DemocracyNext founder and CEO Claudia Chwalisz returns to the Denizen podcast to explore the intersection of deliberative democracy and artificial intelligence. Here we are particularly interested in how we might crease democratic resilience by leveraging AI to scale deliberative processes. Governance innovation is the AI application we're most enthusiastic about so we're excited to bring this conversation to the Denizen audience.

Claudia and Jenny discuss broader trends of rising autocracy, weakening civil societies, and attacks on basic rights, while situating deliberative democracy as a counterforce to these issues. They explore what aspects of the deliberative process are fundamentally human, giving rise to the limitations and risks of certain applications of AI. They also break down five different ways we can think about scaling deliberative democracy, which enables a more nuanced conversation about the opportunities AI presents. Claudia stresses that technology is not a silver bullet, but must be integrated with the human elements of social and political change.

00:00 Introduction to the Episode

00:32 Meet Claudia Swi: Expert on Deliberative Democracy

00:43 Exploring Deliberative Democracy and AI

00:55 The Importance of Democratic Resilience

03:03 Understanding Populism and Authoritarianism

04:49 Challenges and Limitations of Representative Democracy

08:26 Defining Deliberative Democracy

09:49 The Role of Sortition in Deliberative Processes

13:54 In-Person vs. Virtual Deliberative Processes

23:13 The Human Element in Deliberative Democracy

31:23 How AI Can Support Deliberative Structures

35:18 Exploring Tech-Enabled Trackers and Feedback Loops

35:56 Understanding the Lifecycle of Deliberative Processes

36:27 Defining and Breaking Down 'Scale' in AI and Democracy

37:08 The Five Dimensions of Scaling in Deliberative Democracy

37:19 Scaling Out: Increasing Participation in Deliberative Processes

40:29 AI's Role in Scaling Out and Up

46:24 Scaling Across: Spreading Deliberative Processes

49:37 Scaling Deep: Institutionalizing Deliberative Processes

52:45 Scaling In: Enhancing Quality and Impact

59:56 The Broader Implications of AI and Deliberative Democracy

01:06:03 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

Resources:

DemocracyNext: https://www.demnext.org/
Five Dimensions of Scaling Democratic Deliberation: With and Beyond AI
The Populist Signal: Why Politics and Democracy Need to Change, Claudia Chwalisz
The People's Verdict: Adding Informed Citizen Voices to Public Decision Making, Claudia Chwalisz
Denizen podcast Citizen's Assemblies episode
Denizen Citizen's Assemblies overview

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In this final episode of a three-part series on essential capabilities for a regenerative future with Robert Gilman, founder and president of The Context Institute. Robert and Jenny tie the first two episodes of the series together to bring you this conversation on collaboration.

We’ve all heard the term “omni-win” and talked about needed paradigms from zero sum to win for all. I don’t know about you, but we are tired of hearing that high level language without real tactics to bring that to life. This is what this conversation brings to you. Jenny and Robert discuss the “dominator hierarchy” mindset that leads to zero sum problem solving, where the strategy for success is to seek power over others. Rewriting this dominator narrative is essential for win for all outcomes, where all includes all life on Earth.

They also highlight the need to redefine success as win-win-win, and the new patterns of working together that are required to get there. This includes the concept of leadership as service, which I’m sure is music to most of your ears. As always it’s an honor to host Robert and share his 80 years of wisdom with you!

00:00 Introduction to the Series and Guest

01:23 Exploring Collaboration and Omni-Win Solutions

03:09 The Obsolescence of Dominator Models

05:39 Redefining Success and Systemic Thinking

08:18 The Role of Stewardship and Hierarchies

11:40 AI and Governance

12:09 The Importance of Design Processes

13:36 Addressing Dominator Behaviors and Adversarial Paradigms

19:10 Systems Consciousness and Collaborative Design

25:07 The Importance of Feedback Culture

26:37 Building Trust in Organizations

27:37 From Transactional to Relational Paradigms

28:49 Optimal Zones and Collaborative Outcomes

31:00 Design Thinking and Sociocracy

33:41 Consent vs. Consensus in Decision Making

36:25 Integrating Nature into Decision Processes

38:38 The Role of AI and Information Flows

42:50 Leadership in Collaborative Groups

47:25 Conclusion and Call to Action

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This episode explores the importance of understanding and integrating various modes of cognition. It is the second in a three-part series with Robert Gilman, founder and president of The Context Institute, covering essential competencies for the regenerative era.

Jenny and Robert discusses the limitations of object perception and categorical thinking, the roles of visual and kinesthetic thinking, and the value of intuition. The episode also explores the concept of systems consciousness and its implications for living in harmony with life on Earth. Additional discussions include the impact of the Age of Enlightenment on modern thinking, the limitations of language, and the importance of cultural and contextual awareness in decision-making.

00:00 Introduction to Modes of Cognition

00:27 Meet Robert Gilman and Series Overview

01:03 Exploring Various Modes of Cognition

02:14 Understanding Cognition and Its Importance

03:43 Historical and Cultural Analysis of Cognition

05:50 Dominant Modes of Cognition

15:25 Visual Thinking and Its Richness

18:37 Kinesthetic Thinking and Somatic Awareness

24:51 The Importance of Intuition

25:07 Exploring the Concept of Intuition

26:32 The Role of Subconscious in Creativity

27:34 Interconnection of Consciousness

29:16 Balancing Different Modes of Cognition

34:02 Understanding Systems Consciousness

37:56 The Impact of Communication on Understanding

41:47 Developing a FUD Immune System

47:16 Sustainable Motivation and Future Pull

48:31 Conclusion and Resources

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This episode on psychodynamics is part one of a three part series on essential skills for a regenerative future, in honor of Rober Gilman's 80th birthday. Robert is the founder and president of The Context Institute and a pioneer in the sustainability movement.

The conversation dives deep into psychodynamics and the importance of understanding our cognitive biases, nervous systems, and underlying motivations to foster cultural change. Robert explains how personal change is integral to cultural evolution, highlighting the interconnectedness of individual behaviors and societal transformation. Jenny and Robert discuss cultivating personal resilience, recognizing cognitive biases, healing past traumas, and fostering compassionate, curious, and creative interactions.

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00:00 Introduction to Psychodynamics and Cultural Change

00:24 Meet Robert Gilman: A Pioneer in Sustainability

02:04 The Importance of Personal Change for Cultural Transformation

05:45 Historical Context: From Agrarian Empires to the Age of Enlightenment

10:53 The Limitations of Modern Culture and Proposed Changes

24:08 Understanding and Partnering with Our Nervous System

32:18 Exploring Cognitive Biases

33:31 Understanding Motivated Reasoning

35:30 The Role of Cognitive Biases in Media and Relationships

37:31 Layers of Motivation

40:20 The Importance of Relationships

48:58 Embracing Internal Complexity

54:51 The Future of Human Evolution

56:48 Conclusion and Next Steps

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In this episode of the Denizen podcast, host Jenny Stefanotti and activist Julia Rhodes Davis delve into the concept of 'white work,' which goes beyond confronting and dismantling racialized identities. They discuss the importance of understanding personal legacy, taking accountability for ancestors' actions, and taking actions individually to repair past harms. They also discuss the inner, interpersonal, and cultural aspects of this work. Julia emphasizes the importance of ongoing practice within a community setting.

00:00 Introduction to Solidarity and Whiteness

01:22 Meet Julia Rhodes Davis

01:34 Exploring White Work

02:13 Putting White Work within the Denizen Inquiry

02:32 Julia's Background and Evolution

05:25 Understanding Racialized Capitalism

07:51 Personal Stories and Ancestral Context

11:30 The Inner Work of Racial Justice

25:42 Misguided White Work and Diversity

32:17 White Work as a Lifelong Practice

33:17 Understanding Shame and Discomfort in Anti-Racism Work

34:57 Circles of Practice: Community and Storytelling

38:36 Depersonalizing and Understanding Racial Conditioning

46:41 The Role of Inner Work in Anti-Racism

48:28 Exploring Power Dynamics in Relationships

51:18 Rupture and Repair in Relationships

57:12 Building Solidarity Against Fascism

59:40 Closing Remarks and Community Engagement

Resources:

Julia's website and writings: https://www.jrdavis.me/
White Supremacy Culture - Still Here, Tema Okun

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We are incredibly fortunate to welcome Tema Okun to the Denizen podcast for this important conversation. Tema is the author of the influential 1999 paper "White Supremacy Culture" and has been a leader in the racial justice movement for over 35 years. In this insightful episode, Jenny and Tema explore the pervasive influence of white supremacy culture in society. They discuss the concept's historical context, its impact on both personal and systemic levels, and the importance of recognizing internalized racist conditioning.

Tema shares the journey of her original paper, detailing its attributes and their societal implications. She also outlines into the interconnectedness of colonialism, capitalism, and white supremacy. Tema and Jenny reflect on the necessity of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and a culture of appreciation as antidotes to these ingrained systems. The dialogue also highlights the significance of love, belonging, and making conscious choices in combating fear-based energies, ultimately advocating for a collective effort towards systemic change and personal transformation.

Outline for the episode:

00:00 Introduction to Racist Conditioning
00:35 Meet Tema Okun: Activist and Educator
00:47 White Supremacy Culture and Denizen Community
01:54 Personal Reflections on White Supremacy
03:09 Understanding White Supremacy Culture
05:46 The Role of Fear in White Supremacy
09:26 Intersectionality and Systemic Context
12:27 The Origins of the 1999 Paper
24:55 Perfectionism and White Supremacy
29:04 Transforming Defensiveness into Curiosity
30:19 Qualified Paternalism and the Hero Complex
34:41 The Flaws of Capitalism and the Growth Imperative
36:35 The Importance of Process and Connection
38:32 Urgency and the Right to Comfort
45:33 Cultural Antidotes and Emotional Intelligence
53:14 Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

Resources:

White Supremacy Culture website
"White Supremacy Culture" original 1999 paper
"White Supremacy Culture - Still Here" 2021 update
Racial Equity Principles
Tema's website: https://www.fiercelove.info/
15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership
The New Rules of Marriage, Terrance Real

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This conversation features Tyson Yunkaporta, academic, arts critic, researcher, and member of the Apalech Clan in far north Queensland. Tyson is the author of Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World; Right Story, Wrong Story: How to Have Fearless Conversations in Hell; and Snake Talk: How the World’s Ancient Serpent Stories Can Guide Us.

Unlike our typical episodes which focus on a topic, here Jenny embraces Tyson's generative cultural practice of yarning. Tyson describes a yarn as "like a conversation but taking a traditional form his people have always used to create and transmit knowledge." Thus here we capture a raw conversation between Jenny and Tyson, touching on topics of whiteness, identity, modes of cognition, justice, and the hero complex. Tyson shares the story behind each of the three books in his trilogy, touching on their relevance for the modern technologically driven era.

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In this conversation Jenny and Jasmine discuss:

Four common internalized stories we have about money
Money trauma
The importance of talking about money
Jasmine's analogy of a water supply
Philosophical questions of enough and fairness
Banking: extractive vs. sustainable and community-oriented options
Public banking
Consumption decisions and Jasmine's no Amazon policy
The irony of conscious consumption
The role of third party certifications
Investment decisions and investing in place
Structural economic implications of conscious investment and consumption
Giving and receiving money through philanthropy
Beyond personal finances: influencing financial flows
Participatory budgeting
Beyond financial flows: influencing corporate culture and decision making
Employee activism
Showing up for each other beyond money
Acknowledging non financial capital
Rethinking income: guaranteed income and UBI

Resources:

Jasmine's website: https://www.jasminerashid.com/
Trauma of Money program
Friends of public banking pledge
Just Economy Institute

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This powerful conversation explores the relationship between decolonization and consciousness. Ashanti is a systems change agent focused on helping organizations deconstruct dominant narratives of colonization and replace them with life affirming narratives that support a regenerative future. She believes that true transformation must begin within, guiding leaders to embrace spiritual coherence and walk their talk.

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Jenny and Ashanti discuss:

How to define what is right and good
Why the inner work is imperative
The consequences of the narratives we have internalized
Rethinking our understanding of leadership and power
Taking responsibility for ourselves and what inhibits us from doing so
The relationship between deconstructing our stories and spirituality
The importance of walking the talk and the harm caused by misalignment
Love as praxis: moving from fear to love
The role of fear in white supremacy
The Zulu concept of Ubuntu
Loving each other through our ugly
Love and spiritual growth
Love, consideration, and diversity in systems change work
Open and honest communication
The importance of expressing emotions and creating emotionally safe spaces
Calling out vs. calling in
Spiritual accountability, personal integrity, and coherent leadership
Spiritual discernment
Paying attention to our thoughts and language
Self-love

Resources

Learning 2 Unlearn, Ashanti's website
"White supremacy lives in the mundane" Ashanti on Social Transformation
Pedagogy of the Oppressed, Paul Freire
We Will Not Cancel Us: And Other Dreams of Transformative Justice, adrienne maree brown

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This episode builds on many prior conversations exploring work that we can do on ourselves, including living authentically, trauma and the nervous system, nonviolent communication, transforming relational conflict, and optimal zone resilience. It demonstrates how the work on ourselves extends upwards into the organization context, and further amplifies our impact at a systemic level.

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In this conversation Jenny and Diana discuss:

What Diana means by conscious when she refers to conscious leadership
Being above or below the line: reacting from fear vs. responding from trust
The four different types of consciousness from which we might lead: to me, by me, through me, and as me
Taking radical responsibility
Staying curious and growing in self-awareness
The problem with wanting to be right
Our relationship with our stories and willingness to consider the opposite is equally true
The importance of feeling our feelings and seeing their value
Why candor and safe emotional spaces are essential
Why gossip is pernicious and the how judgement reveals our shadows
Integrity, both with ourselves and with others
Making clear agreements using a whole body yes
How to handle broken agreements
Regarding all circumstances of life as an opportunity to learn and grow
Moving from scarcity to abundance with a commitment to experiencing having enough of everything
Committing to win for all solutions
Operating from our zones of genius and realizing our full potential
Being the resolution rather than assigning blame to others
The importance of rest and play
Subconscious commitments

Resources:

The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership
The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success, Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Warner Klemp
The Conscious Leadership Group
WholeBodyYes.com
Conscious Loving: The Journey To Co-Commitment, Gay Hendricks, Ph.D. and Kathlyn Hendricks, Ph.D.
Terrance Real: https://terryreal.com/
Man's Search For Meaning, Viktor Frankl
Existential Kink: Unmask Your Shadow and Embrace Your Power, Carolyn Elliott, Ph.D.

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Ethnocide is a word Barrett both coined and resurrected, referring to the destruction of a people’s culture while keeping the people. From Barrett’s point of view, Trump’s re-election is not cause for disbelief, but a glaring reminder of what America has been since its inception: a country founded by white men for the purposes of wealth accumulation, whose rhetoric of freedom and equality has always been tenuous alongside its prevalence of white supremacy and patriarchy.

In this conversation Jenny and Barrett discuss:

Why Trump's re-election did not surprise Barrett and how it reflects something fundamental about American politics
The bad faith and lies underlying American democracy
The distinction between freedom from and freedom with
The importance of language in addressing systemic oppression
What ethnocide means and its origin
Capitalism and ethnocide
Existentialism and the notions of existence vs. essence
White essence in the United States
What identity means to Barrett
Why the Hegelian dialectic and critical theory are essential to understand and combat ethnocide
What culture means to Barrett
Ethnogenesis: creating and birthing culture
Barrett's Altars of American project: a ritual to combat ethnocide
Eŭ-topia: a sustainable, good, nurturing place
How we can transcend systemic oppression by cultivating Eŭ-topian spaces

Resources:

The Crime Without A Name: Ethnocide and the Erasure of Culture in America
The Sustainable Culture Lab
Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism

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Melanie Rieback is a cybersecurity entrepreneur and the founder of Nonprofit Ventures, an organization dedicated to supporting post growth entrepreneurs. She runs an incubator to support post growth entrepreneurs and teaches a course at the University of Amsterdam on post growth entrepreneurship. Her lectures are available on YouTube, linked below.

This episode builds on a long series of conversations on this podcast exploring economic reform: stakeholder capitalism, steward ownership, co-ops, post-growth economics, to name a few. While it's called pot growth entrepreneurship, really this conversation is about non-extractive entrepreneurship. PGE rejects the typical silicon valley model of capital, scale, exit, in favor of bootstrapping, flat growth, and non-extraction.

In this conversation Jenny and Melanie discuss:

Melanie's path from cybersecurity entrepreneur to post growth entrepreneurship
Why not all forms of steward ownership ensure profit serves purpose
Why Melanie believes business is one of the most effective forms of activism
Defining post growth entrepreneurship (PGE)
Why PGE is a leverage point for systemic change
Issues with the Silicon Valley model of capital, scale, exit
Issues with status quo social enterprise and impact investing
Principles of PGE: bootstrapping, flat growth, non-extraction
Asset locks and stable steward ownership implementation
Policy initiatives in Europe to create a steward owned business entity
How to think about fair compensation when implementing PGE
Thoughts on the cultural component of this work
Business as spirituality

Resources:

Nonprofit Ventures website: https://nonprofit.ventures/
Post Growth Entrepreneurship: three minute explainer video
"Putting Post Growth Theory Into Practice" Medium post
Melanie's post growth entrepreneurship course at the University of Amsterdam; 8 YouTube lectures

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Consciousness is one of the six themes of the Denizen podcast and the role of psychedelics is an important subset of that inquiry. It's an honor to bring Rick Doblin to the podcast with this episode; he has been at the forefront of the movement since founding the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) in 1986. Rick is joined by Nirvan Mullick, filmmaker and founder of Interconnected Media, who has been working on a documentary about Rick and MAPS for ten years.

This episode extensively explores the role of storytelling in the psychedelic movement. Rick takes us back to the cultural context of his childhood and shares his own experience of awakening through experimenting with psychedelics as a young adult. We discuss MAPS’s strategy and how storytelling complimented their data-driven approach with clinical trials. We talk about MAPS's corporate structure and how it evolved over time, with its incentives slowly corrupted as MAPS was forced to bring in venture capital to continue its work.

Rick shares the story of the year leading up to the FDA's response letter, and how MAPS's leadership inhibited his ability to contribute to a more balanced narrative about the treatment of MDMA for PTSD. We then look forward to what comes next, and how storytelling is critical for the movement to succeed in bringing psychedelics to the mainstream to enable a global shift in consciousness. Throughout, Nirvan shares his insights as a filmmaker documenting Rick's story over the last ten years.

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Ferananda Ibarra is the CEO of the Coventina Foundation, co-founder of the Metacurrency Project, and expert in utilizing the decentralized web to enable economic innovation, collective intelligence, and the commons.

In this conversation we explore the role of currency innovation in economic innovation and regenerative economics. Fernanda has such an incredible range of experience and knowledge that she brings to bear with her work — from her expertise in technology to her love of nature and study of indigenous wisdom to her deep foundational understanding of the commons and collective intelligence.

While the headline for this conversation is currencies, ultimately it’s abroad ranging discussion that explores money, wealth, currencies, why flows are so critical for healthy living systems, what’s wrong with blockchain and the familiar cryptocurrencies out there, and more.

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What are citizen's assemblies, and how might they address challenges faced with representative democracy around the world today?

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Resources:

Development in Progress: https://consilienceproject.org/development-in-progress/

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If you’re wondering how we might reform capitalism to be less extractive and more regenerative, this conversation is for you. Our guests Chelsea Robinson and Jay Standish have just published a book, Assets in Common, sharing recent research on what is happening in the most progressive corners of the current economic landscape.

We discuss shared and stewardship governance models, which yield a more equitable, more purpose-driven economy. Chelsea and Jay relay key findings from his research on how forward thinking entrepreneurs can address constraints they face, which enable a more progressive economy to scale. This isn’t a theoretical conversation that leaves you questioning what’s realistic, it is tactical and grounded in case studies.

Resources:

Assets in Common: Stories of Business and Community Leaders Remaking the Economy from the Ground Up

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Over the last few episodes we’ve been exploring work that we can do on ourselves and in intimate relationships. This conversation builds on those by extending that individual work into the group and organizational level. We explore power and examine the patterns that show up at all organizational levels, from teams to organizations to coalitions to movements.

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In this conversation Jenny and Ted cover:

Power and it's relationship with agency and responisbility
The distinction between power-over, power-under, power-within, and power-with
The importance of individual work
The concept of multi-level selection and the need to balance autonomy with alignment
The Principles for prosocial behavior
Various models for decision making and why Ted believes consent is the only collectively minded decision making method
The importance of trust and psychological safety in organizations
Organizational structures and processes that enable coherence alongside decentralization
Sources of legitimacy in organizations
What blobs are and how to avoid your organization becoming one
Coalitions
Movements
Challenges in implementing these ideas in the default legal and cultural context

Resources

Collective Power: Patterns For A Self=Organized Future, Ted Rau

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In this episode we’re discussing healing trauma, specifically what is required to address trauma at the root: in our nervous systems. This topic is critical because what most of us don’t realize is how many people live in a perpetually dysregulated state due to unresolved trauma. This leaves us with an ongoing baseline of reactivity, hypervigilance, and anxiety that spills over into every area of our lives. Very often our unresolved trauma stems from so far into our childhoods that we are unable to parse out who we actually are at our core from who we become when our nervous systems are stuck in a fight, flight, or freeze response.

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Our guest for this episode is Danielle Rubio. Danielle uses nervous system rewiring, movement therapy, and mindfulness to help her clients do the deep work required to truly address their trauma and live lives of purpose from a center, empowered place. She is a yoga and meditation teacher, reiki master, and touch therapist who has studied extensively with leaders in the field such as Dr. Fleet Maul, Irene and Seth Lyon, Gabor Mate, and Arielle Schwartz.

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In this conversation Jenny and Danielle discuss:

How Danielle defines trauma
Its prevalence in the United States and the extent of its economic and social costs to society
What trauma actually does to the body and what it looks like when we have an unhealed, regulated nervous system
The distinction between true healing and bypassing, illustrated by Danielle’s rude awakening after the traumatic birth of her daughter
Critical learnings from Danielle's research that inform her practice today
What doing the work to heal actually looks like, and why it’s important to do it with support
Danielle's most essential tools
What it looks like to live in a more embodied state, addressing trauma as it surfaces
The one thing Danielle wishes everyone knew

Resources:

Danielle's website: https://danielle-rubio.com/
The Body Keeps The Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma, Bessel Van Der Kolk

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In this episode we’re discussing conflict resolution, in particular, the distinction between an adversarial paradigm, that all of us unwittingly hold, and a restorative paradigm, that gets us what we ultimately want: healthy, thriving relationships with those closest to us . The difference between the two is quite literally life changing. In the former hurt leads to disconnection and distance, with a slow and steady degradation of the relationships that matter most. In the latter, hurt creates an opportunity for deeper connection and intimacy, which obviously reflects the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible. This deep, provocative, practical conversation will help us all move in that direction.

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Our guest is David Cooley, he is a relationship coach who works with individuals and couples, guiding them to address conflict in a way that restores harmony. His work interweaves his background in restorative justice with training in nonviolent communication, mindfulness based practices, narrative therapy, somatic work, and attachment theory. He is also the author of Poly-wise with his partner, Jessica Fern.

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In this conversation Jenny and David discuss:

What the adversarial paradigm is
How culture and the criminal justice system affect how we show up in interpersonal conflict
The insidious ways the adversarial paradigm shows up in our beliefs, responses, and internal narratives
How our conflict resolution defaults impact our nervous systems and the nervous systems of our partners
How the stories we hold distort how we perceive our partners in moments of conflict
Why all of this leads to increasing disconnect and degradations
What the restorative paradigm is
The restorative versions of the believes, responses, and narratives of the adversarial paradigm
The nervous system and how critical self-awareness and self-regulation is to addressing conflict productively
The role of fairness in intimate relationships
The role of forgiveness and the distinction between repair, expression, and forgiveness
How we can care for our partner's emotional needs without taking responsibility for our partner's emotions and compromising ourselves

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Alongside this episode we are sharing David's incredible handouts with our listeners. Contact us at www.becomingdenizen.com and we will happily send them your way.

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In this episode we delve deep into how we can live more authentic lives, in alignment with our true selves.

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Our guest is Maria Camara Serrano, co-director of the Hoffman Institute's international division. In addition to her work leading the Hoffman Institute internationally, Maria is trained in Gestalt Therapy, Mindfulness, and Emotion-Focused Therapy. She has a PhD in psychology and has been studying and practicing Buddhism for over 20 years.

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Jenny and Maria integrate both psychology and spirituality into the conversation as they explore the question of how we might live more authentic lives, covering the following:

What does it mean to live authentically?
Why this topic is so relevant for Denizen's vision for the future
Why most of us don’t lead an authentic life
What the spiritual traditions have to teach us
What psychology has to teach us
What the work to learn to live authentically looks like
What the work doesn’t look like, and common ways people misunderstand what the work is or try to bypass critical components of it
The Hoffman Institute’s cycle of transformation: awareness, expression, compassion and forgiveness, and new ways of being
What a healthy relationship with our emotional experience looks like
How we can heal from traumatic experiences stored in the body
Why our emotional competence is so important for compassion and forgiveness
Why compassion and forgiveness is an essential part of returning to our authentic selves
What it looks like to live authentically in our day to day lives
The role of self love

Resources:

Hoffman Institute: https://www.hoffmaninstitute.org/
The Body Keeps The Score, by Bessel Van Der Kolk

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In this episode we build on the two part series on consensual non-monogamy by discussing modern family structures and the work underway to support them.

Our guests, Alexander Chen and Health Schechinger are both doing remarkable work in this field.

In this conversation we discuss:

The relationship between consensual non-monogamy and the LGBTQ+ movement
What family means
Why this is a civil right issue
Legal work underway to support nondyadic partnerships
The research agenda
Why this is relevant for systemic change more broadly

Resources:

Modern Family Institute
Polyamory Legal Advocacy Coalition

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In this episode Jenny and Jessica discuss:

The neurochemisty of lust, attraction, and love
Consensual non-monogamy (CNM) and social justice: punitive vs. restorative vs. transformational models
How CNM helps us surface and heal trauma and attachment issues
How CNM teaches us to change dominant paradigms and stories within us
Why CNM leads to a change in consciousness and evolution of the self
How embarking on a CNM journey is similar to climbing Mt Everest

Resources:

Polysecure, by Jessica Fern
Polywise by Jessica Fern
Love, Actually: The science behind lust, attraction, and companionship
Our Models of Justice are Perpetuating Injustice Jenny's Blog Post
We Will Not Cancel Us: And Other Dreams of Transformative Justice by adrienne maree brown
Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows

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In this conversation Jenny and Robert discuss:

What the optimal zone is and how it relates to our nervous system
What the defensive zone is and how it relates to our nervous system
How our triggers are amplified by past trauma, agitation from other events of the day, and chronic stress
How we can break the cycle of reflexive response when we are triggered and develop new patterns to become less triggered next time
The notion of optimal zone hygiene, and practices we can employ to stay in our optimal zone
Optimal zone first aid; i.e. things we can do in groups as preparation to better respond when someone is triggered
Healing, particularly with respect to intergenerational trauma
How this conversation fits into Robert's course at the Context Institute, Bright Future Now

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In this episode Jenny and Jessica cover:

The prevalence of infidelity and divorce
Issues with the modern love story and codependency
What is love? Ideas from bell hooks and Daniel Schmachtenberger
What consensual non monogamy (CNM) is
Different variations CNM can take depending on emotional and physical exclusivity
Why people practice CNM
Best practices: defining your why
Best practices: defining your what
Hierarchy
Transparency
CNM and attachment theory: the difference between structural and statistical security

References

Polysecure, by Jessica Fern
Polywiseby Jessica Fern
all about love by bell hooks
"What Loving You Means To Me" by Daniel Schmactenberger

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How might we move beyond polarization and integrate the truths held in opposing points of view? Storyteller and producer Stephanie Lepp shares with us her tools and strategies to, in her words, "leave no insight behind" -- a skill essential to address the challenges of our time.

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In this essential episode, Jenny discusses stakeholder capitalism with Jasper van Brakel, CEO of RSF Social Finance. This is one of the most important topics of the Denizen inquiry, as it tees up true economic reform where profit is put in service of purpose.

In this conversation Jenny and Jasper cover stakeholder capitalism comprehensively:

Defining stakeholder capitalism and differentiating between stakeholder economics
Outlining key ideas from classical economics to neoliberalism to today's shift to stakeholder driven models
Trends driving stakeholder capitalism
Metrics and B Corps
Public Benefit Corps
Board Representation
Co-ops
Employee Trusts
Perpetual Purpose Trusts
Foundation Owned Companies
Capital Constraints
Philosophical questions

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Resources

Jasper's writings

Everyone talks about the E and the S, but we need to talk more about the G
Want to wring impact from ESG? Look to governance
Momentum gathers for a mission-first business model revolution
Welcome to the Era of Regenerative Finance

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Jenny's Medium posts

Accelerating Stakeholder Capitalism
Taming the Evolutionary Beast
The Friedman Doctrine, Revisited

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How can art contribute to systemic change? Design Science Studio co-founder Roxi Sohadaee shares her insights from working with hundreds of artists across myriad disciplines.

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The regenerative story starts with single core idea: we can use the universal principles underlying stable, healthy, and sustainable living and nonliving systems throughout the real world as a model for economic-system design.

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After 20 years on Wall Street, John Fullerton embarked on an intellectual journey that led him to formulate his ideas around regenerative economics. In this conversation Jenny and John discuss the meaningful influences in John's thinking, his views on why neoclassical economics is fundamentally flawed, the eight principles of regenerative capitalism, how his ideas relate to more dominant forms of economic reform, and the Capital Institute's course on Regenerative Economics, which John describes as more of an awakening than a course.

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Post Growth Institute's Donnie Maclurcan returns to the Denizen podcast with an important follow up to one of our most popular episodes, Post Growth Economics. Here Donnie reiterates on why capitalism is fundamentally flawed, outlines what is working around the world today, and explains his theory of change for how we evolve to an economy that is regenerative, just, and circular.

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Outline for the conversation:

Donnie's definition of capitalism [2:24]
Capitalism, extraction, and exploitation [6:34]
Debt and why capitalism is fundamentally inequitable [9:06]
Why wealth taxes are not the answer [15:47]
The role of profit in a post capitalist market economy [19:16]
Examples of post capitalist organizations operating today [26:03]
Various governance models and entity types [27:33]
Investment and ownership in a post capitalist economy [28:37]
IKEA and Bosch as examples of a successful global post growth company [30:18]
Examples in the financial sector [36:24]
Why certified B-Corps and public benefit corporations are not enough [38:04]
Why changing where you bank is one of the highest leverage things you can do [40:11]
Influences from Gandhian economics and Vinoba Bhave [49:40]
Moving capital, labor, attention out of the extractive economy [50:22]

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This episode comes along side of the launch of Tobias Rose-Stockwell's book Taming The Outrage Machine: How Technology Amplifies Discontent, Disrupts Democracy -- And What We Can Do About It. Tobias is an author, designer, and media researcher who has been working at the forefront of this topic for many years.

By investigating media's role in information flows throughout history, Tobias' book brings clarity and fresh insights to the role social media plays in society today. In this conversation Jenny and Tobias distill the book's most salient points for the Denizen audience.

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Outline of the discussion:

The role of outrage in democratic governance [4:00]
Technological disruptions and the dark valley [10:04]
Martin Luther and the printing press [10:52]
The impact of the first advertising based newspaper [14:04]
The advent of modern journalism [18:16]
The relationship between distribution costs and editorial incentives [22:10]
Television and the impact of repealing the Fairness Doctrine [23:45]
The role of human psychology and cognitive biases [27:17]
The three design features that changed everything: the algorithmic feed [31:09]
The three design features that changed everything: social metrics [33:54]
The three design features that changed everything: the one click share [37:13]
Economic incentives and multi-polar traps[41:47]
The role of government and design vs. content level regulation [43:41]
Hope from a historical example: radio [48:54]
Intervention points: the individual [53:52]
Intervention points: social media platforms [56:06]
Intervention points: policy [59:57]
A word of caution about decentralized social media [1:01:41]
The speed of technological progress vs. the speed of regulatory response [1:03:10]

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How might we inspire humans to think on the time scale of civilization? What can we learn about long term thinking from the world's most enduring organizations? Long Now Foundation's Executive Director reflects on his learnings from 25 years in his role.

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Sociocracy is a form of governance that utilizes content-based decision making in small groups. By delegating authority to the handful of people who are responsible for executing on the related work, power is distributed more broadly throughout organizations. In a consent based model, everyone takes responsibility for decisions made by the group.

This conversations covers essential things you need to know to understand this progressive governance model:

What is sociocracy? [3:08]
Sociocracy and egalitarianism [4:29]
Types of organizations that sociocracy is a fit for [5:57]
History of sociocracy [7:06]
Consensus vs. consent-based decision making [8:31]
Sociocracy and rapid prototyping [10:58]
Circle aim and composition [13:15]
Optimal number of people for consent-based decision making [15:14]
Determining who is in a circle [16:47]
Circles, domains, and mapping circles across an organization [18:02]
Linking circles [20:52]
Leaders vs. delegates [21:46]
Information flows: double links, prototyping, and voice [22:43]
Sociocracy and representation: who is in the circle and creating accountability [25:03]
Consent vs. autocratic and democratic decision making [28:21]
Revisiting decisions [30:34]
Limitations of sociocracy : the people [31:59]
Limitations of sociocracy: information flows at scale [34:44]
Limitations of sociocracy: current legal structures and the current economic paradigm [36:24]
Determining what decisions a circle is responsible for [37:35]
Sociocracy, DAOs, and Web3 [39:03]
Scale and voice vs. decision making [41:12]
Sociocracy and trust [42:18]
Nonvoilent communication and sociocracy [44:36]
Current state of sociocracy in practice [46:50]

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Long-term capitalism is one of our most foundational topics. We investigate how we might instantiate a variation of capitalism that optimizes over longer time horizons that a quarter, which is the form of capitalism that dominates the public market.

Michelle Green, founding employee, President Emeritus, Board member and Interim CEO of the Long Term Stock Exchange joins us for this foundational conversation. We discuss long-term capitalism at a macro level and delineate how policy makers, investors, and business leaders can put in place measures to institutionalize long-term decision making.

Outline of the episode:

What long-term capitalism isn't [3:23]
Drivers of the emergence of quarterly capitalism [4:58]
Defining long-term capitalism [7:29]
Trends relating to long-term capitalism [9:57]
Narratives vs. reality [11:29]
Drivers of the decline in pubic companies over the past 30 years [13:51]
Post-pandemic trends in stakeholder capitalism and ESG [16:14]
Buybacks, short-termism, and extraction [17:58]
Policy measures to address buybacks [20:07]
Other policy approaches for long-term capitalism [24:22]
Long-term capitalism and corporate governance [26:00]
How companies can incentivize long-term investment [29:02]
Long Term Stock Exchange (LTSE) [36:21]
Parallels between LTSE and certification [39:59]
Information dynamics and the signalling value of LTSE [40:46]
LTSE's choice to be a principles vs. standards based exchange [41:27]
LTSE's five principles [43:40]
Principle one: stakeholders [43:45]
Principle two: strategy [46:15]
Principle three: compensation [47:04]
Principle three: Board of Directors [48:17]
Principle three: investors [48:40]
Establishing a research base for long-term capitalism [49:54]
LTSE's ecosystem level approach [51:37]
What Michelle is seeing in the current moment [54:10]
LTSE and the technology industry [58:11]
Limitations to the LTSE's success [1:00:08]
Alignment with long-term capitalism and social objectives [1:04:57]

Resources:

Denizen's research summary on long-term capitalism
Michelle's TED Talk on the Long Term Stock Exchange
Principles of Corporate Governance, Business Roundtable 2016
"Short Termism Is Harming The Economy" Warren Buffet and Jamie Dimon, Wall Street Journal June 2018

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On the heels of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman's testimony before Congress, we are releasing this important conversation from 2021. Jenny sits down with Stanford political science professors Rob Reich, Jeremy Weinstein, and Nate Persily to interrogate big tech's role in society. How did we get to where we are today? What interventions in the near term, from creating new ethical norms to putting in place more democratic forms of corporate governance to regulation, might we pursue to bring big tech into better alignment with our collective social objectives?

Outline for the conversation:

Rob's summary of their book System Error: Where Big Tech Went Wrong and How We Can Reboot [4:40]
Comments on Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg's control of the company [6:40]
Silicon Valley's influence on Stanford [8:33]
Jeremy and Rob's intervention on campus [9:20]
Why technology companies generate social harms with new technology [13:12]
Drivers of the loose regulatory environment for technology [16:41]
The regulatory environment of the US vs. the EU [18:53]
Issues with the dominant mindsets of Silicon Valley [21:29]
Regulating tech vs. other markets [25:07]
Solutions: new corporate governance and ethics [30:36]
Addressing barriers to regulatory solutions: corporate capture [32:50]
Addressing barriers to regulatory solutions: pace of technology vs. pace of regulation [32:50]
Need for transparency for better accountability [39:57]
Ideas for corporate governance with public accountability [41:52]
Addressing big tech amidst misaligned market incentives [44:46]
Interrogating WhatApp vs. Signal re: social alignment [47:56]
Role of competition in enabling social driven usage [50:22]
Importance of regulatory reform to enable more competition [53:24]
Pushing back on non-profit motives vs. more democratic forms of governance [54:01]
The importance of spiritual and cultural pluralism [55:12]
Integrating immediate and long term approaches [57:32]

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In this episode Jenny sits down with Jim Rutt and Jordan Hall, founders of the Game B movement, to understand it's history and main tenets. Jim and Jordan have thought deeply about many facets of the Denizen inquiry, this conversation dives into many core concepts related to social and institutional redesign.

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The genesis of Game B [3:05]
Defining complexity science [4:04]
Epistemology and epistemic modesty [5:26]
Jim's original paper the Root Doc [5:49]
The Stanton meetings and establishing a political party [7:01]
Evolving from The Emancipation Party to Game B [9:06]
Defining Game B [12:23]
The dissolution of the original Game B cohort / shifting to "spore mode" [12:38]
Main tenets of Game B [16:02]
Design and design principles [23:04]
Collective intelligence and technology in Game B [24:23]
Governance, scale, and Dunbar's number [28:55]
The importance of protocols [36:56]
Game A's scaling advantage and self terminating nature [38:40]
Upgrading humans in Game B with psycho technologies [42:42]
Where Game B is now [52:20]
How a Game B transition might take place [1:00:27]
The relationship between theory and practice [1:03:39]
Permaculture vs. Game B [1:11:13]
The Circular Economy vs. Game B [1:12:04]
Game B and Economic Growth [1:13:32]

Resources

The Game B wiki
Rebel Wisdom episode "The Story of Game B"
The Jim Rutt Show
Game B Facebook group

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In this episode Jenny sits down with three leaders in the regenerative movement: John Fullerton, Founder of the Capital Institute and champion of Regenerative Capitalism; Hunter Lovins, pioneer in the sustainability movement and author of Natural Capitalism; and Joon Yun, philanthropist and advocate of inclusive stakeholding. Each have been guests on various topics within the Denizen inquiry: Regenerative Capitalism, Natural Capitalism, and Inclusive Stakeholding. Each of them mentioned the importance of narratives shifts in their individual discussions, so this conversation brings them together to explore the new narratives that are needed for systems change.

John, Hunter and Joon are joined by four creatives within the Denizen community who share reflections from their work in various mediums. Recording artist Alex Ebert of Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeros, visual artist Ben Von Wong, actor Ryan Caldwell, and filmmaker James Krisel. This is a wide ranging and provocative conversation intended to inspire new narratives for cultural change.

In this conversation Jenny, John, Hunter, Joon, Alex, Ben, Ryan and James discuss:

Introductory framing [3:08]
John's reflections on regenerative captialism's role in crafting new narratives [4:36]
Hunter's reflections [11:00]
Joon's reflections on storytelling and inclusive stakeholding [17:40]
Inclusive stakeholding and regenerative capitalism principles: empowered participation [27:12]
Reasons for hope wrt new narratives [31:49]
Thoughts from Alex Ebert of Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeros [35:43]
Thoughts from visual artist Ben Von Wong [37:30]
Reflections from Ryan Caldwell, actor; the importance of story [40:17]
The necessity of vision [43:26]
Reflections from James Krisel, filmmaker [46:14]
Analogies with human aging [48:11]
Overcoming tribalism [52:38]

Resources:

"Regenerative Capitalism: How Universal Principles and Patterns Will Shape Our New Economy", John Fullerton
Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution, Paul Hawken, Hunter Lovins, and Amory Lovins
A Finer Future: Creating an Economy in Service to Life, Hunter Lovins, Anders Wijkman, Stewart Wallis, and John Fullerton‍
Interdependent Capitalism: Redesigning the Social Contract through Inclusive Stakeholding, Joon Yun, Jeremy Yun, Conrad Yun‍
Essays on Inclusive Stakeholding Joon Yu, Eric Yun, and Conrad Yun‍
Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants., Robin Wall Kimmerer
Thomas Berry‍
Grunch of Giants, Buckminster Fuller
Donella Meadows
Neuromancer, William Gibson
Alex Ebert
Ben Von Wong‍
The Stubborn Optimist's Guide, Center for Humane Technology's Your Undivided Attention episode with Christiana Figueres

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Donnie Maclurcan returns in this episode to discuss the radical, embodied practices he employs as Executive Director of the Post Growth Institute. Learn how PGI uses an asset-based approach, sociocratic governance, and lean processes to create trust, safety, and virtuous cycles. Recorded live in San Francisco, Donnie and Jenny discuss PGI's cutting edge practices such as silent meetings, a long hiring process, a policy of "no shit work", rest week, defining one's own pay rates, and much more. It's a provocative, eye opening conversation that should not be missed.

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This episode is a little different than most, we’re not exploring a single topic. Instead we discuss Elena’s expansive work as it relates to our inquiry. This conversation ties to so many episodes to date: Change from Within with Bobby Klein, Nonviolent Communication, Beyond the Enlightenment, Liberatory Technology, and Parenting, just to name a few. Elena helps us weave them together under the banner of our personal practices.

We discuss her upcoming book, Softening Time, how nonviolent communication has helped her learn self compassion, her recent devotion to Zen Buddhism, her decision to become sober ten years ago, lessons from parenting, her course on living intentionally, and the importance of community.

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Our guests for this episode are Aden Van Noppen, Davion Ziere, and Sará King, the team behind Mobius. With historical and current advisors such as Jack Kornfield, Dr. Angel Acosta, and Krista Tippet, Mobius's mission is to activate a tech ecosystem focused on healing and well being. Mobius' work prioritizes support for Black, Brown, Indigenous, queer, youth, and others who are marginalized by the dominant tech sector.

In this conversation we discuss their vision for the technology sector and how Mobius' work seeks to enable it.

Sará, Zi, and Aden's visions for the technology sector [3:36]
Learnings form Mobius 1.0 [11:05]
Defining liberatory technology [16:56]
Mobius' theory of change [26:41]
Structures of accountability [32:04]
Mobius' trust and governing structures [34:46]
Sará's work with Mind Heart as an example of a liberatory technology [42:28]
Establishing Liberatory technology foundations [50:00]

Resources

Mobius' website
"Creating Technology Worthy of the Human Spirit," Aden Van Noppen
Sará King: Liberatory Technology from the Future; Sará's episode on the Sounds True podcast

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In this episode we're exploring a foundational topic: trust. Our guest Davion Ziere, known as Zi, has been thinking deeply about this topic for years. He's even written a yet to be published book on it. Davion is co-director of Mobius, founder of an online community marketplace called Origyn, a recording artist, and student of many indigenous traditions. This is the first of a two part series exploring Zi's work.

In this conversation Jenny and Zi touch on:

Trust and grief [2:54]
Defining trust [5:31]
Trust in pre-modern cultures [8:10]
Learning from Zi's study of indigenous groups in Hawaii, Peru, and the Amazon [13:30]
Why trust is a root issue to address [17:00]
Trust of self [19:59]
Defining self worth [26:09]
Restoring trust and the importance of truth [30:04]
The importance of listening [41:51]
The first law of thermodynamics [44:05]
Zi's values around trust [45:47]
Moving from transaction to trust [56:08]
Redefining ownership [57:26]

Resources

Braiding Sweetgrass, Robin Wall Kimmerer
Building Trust: In Business, Politics, Relationships, and Life, Fernando Flores and Robert Solomon
The Truth about Trust: How It Determines Success in Life, Love, Learning, and More, David DeSteno

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In this episode we discuss the importance of service, the value of community, finding one’s purpose, the need for ceremony and ritual, how to really listen, and much more.

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Our guest for this episode is Carla Fernandez, co-founder of The Dinner Party, a platform for young adults who have lost someone close to them. The Dinner Party now operates in over 100 cities around the world and has been featured in media outlets such as NPR, CNN, and the New York Times. Carla is also a designer, facilitator, and strategist whose work brings creativity, joy, and connection to the roots of our most intractable problems. She is also currently writing a book called Renegade Grief.

In this episode Jenny and Carla discuss:

Carla's experience losing her father [4:53]
Jenny's reflections on losing her parents [8:37]
Grief, public heath, and policy [13:43]
Grief vs. trauma when someone close to you dies [16:00]
Lessons in self-compassion [18:23]
The impact of the decline of religion on grieving [21:34]
Death and forgiveness [22:06]
The Dinner Party and its learnings [25:44]
The importance of community and relationships as a foundation for systems change [33:20]
Grief and growth [38:36]
Accepting death and living intentionally [41:46]
Discomfort with difficult emotional experiences [46:29]
Interconnection and grief [47:17]
Carla's upcoming book, Renegade Grief [53:22]

Resources

The Dinner Party
The Smell of Rain on Dust: Grief and Praise, Martin Prechtel
The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss, Mary-Frances O'Connor
Walking Each Other Home: Conversations on Loving and Dying, Ram Dass and Mirabai Bush
I'm Glad My Mom Died, Jennette McCurdy
Limitless with Chris Hemsworth (final episode is about death)
Facing the Climate Emergency: How to Transform Yourself with Climate Truth, Margaret Klein Salamon

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This conversation investigates the fundamental challenges of a capitalism and outlines a vision for a post-growth economy that better achieves a just, sustainable society. Our guest, Donnie MacLurcan, is the founder and Executive Director of the Post Growth Institute. He's one of the most brilliant thinkers we've met on new economics.

In this episode Jenny and Donnie discuss:

Defining post-growth economics [2:23]
Distinction between capitalism and market economies [6:23]
Capitalism, accumulation, and debt [7:32]
Debt and money creation [10:04]
Capitalism and debt accumulation [17:51]
One planet lifestyles [20:31]
Ecological limits, technology and Jevon's Paradox [22:23]
Manfred Max-Neef, Maslow's heirarchy and universal needs [24:24]
Defining a full circle economy [26:40]
Circularity and indigenous cultures [27:43]
Nonprofits vs. not-for profit [29:30]
Prevalance of not-for-profit enterprise around the world [31:27]
Industrial foundations [36:34]
The problem with co-ops [38:18]
Transitioning to a post-growth economy [40:28]
Asset based community development [41:01]
Post-growth economics and geopolitics [45:43]
Sources for hope [49:32]

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Steward ownership is one of the single most important concepts to understand for those interested in reforming capitalism. Whereas all other models of corporate governance that seek to integrate purpose co-ops, public benefit corporations, B Corps, and PBLLCs leave intact a fundamental tension between purpose and profit, steward ownership instantiates profit in service of purpose in a way that is legally binding. Steward ownership is where the keys to the castle lie if we are interested in market economy that addresses the fatal flaws of capitalism as we know it.

Our guest for this episode are Derek Razo and Camille Canon, co-founders of Purpose US, a consultancy supporting companies looking to adopt steward owned governance models.

In this conversation Jenny, Derek, and Camille discuss:

What is steward ownership? [4:41]
Steward ownership vs. other familiar corporate governance models [6:50]
Channels for profit in steward owned and other governance models [10:29]
Importance of legally binding structures in reforming the economy [11:27]
Value clarifying purpose amongst stakeholders [12:10]
Steward ownership and securing purpose across multiple generations of leaders / protecting purpose against capture by any particular group's interests [13:01]
Rethinking the definition of ownership [16:05]
How steward ownership binds governance rights to purpose [18:37]
Checks and balances to limit extraction with steward ownership [20:30]
Legacy of steward owned models around the world [22:43]
Camille and Derek's ladder of legal security for purpose driven governance [24:16]
Entity types and legal forms for steward ownership [31:15]
Steward ownership models vs. non-profits [33:29]
Challenges accessing finance [35:13]
Overcoming the growth stage financing gap without losing control [38:00]
Innovative financing models [39:02]
Founder leverage and alternative deal structures [40:24]
The Purpose Futures Fellowship for fund managers [42:52]
Steward ownership and DAOs [49:48]
Web3 and new sources of liquidity [52:58]
Current state of steward ownership interest and adoption [54:54]

‍Resources

Steward Ownership: Rethinking Ownership in the 21st century A handbook outlining steward ownership
Can Companies Force Themselves To Do Good? A feature in The New Yorker Magazine
The Patagonia Structure in the Context of Steward-Ownership

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This episode covers an important corporate governance form: the cooperative, also known as a co-ops. There are many types of co-ops which makes it challenging to fully understand what distinguishes them from other corporate forms.

This is an essential topic, as it is within the incentives of corporate governance that alternative economic outcomes can be designed.

In this conversation Jenny, Jessica, and Greg cover:

What defines a co-op? [3:22]
Examples of well known co-ops [4:28]
How co-ops address inequality and other issues with captialism [5:24]
Performance stats for co-ops vs. other corporate governance structures [5:48]
Drawbacks of co-ops [6:39]
Why there aren't more co-ops [7:35]
Greg's definition of a co-op [10:42]
Co-ops vs. employee stock ownership plans (ESOPs) [13:32]
Ownership, financial rights, and governance rights [15:16]
Co-ops vs. other multi-stakeholder forms of governance [17:41]
Variables for cooperative governance design [19:25]
Patrons vs. investors [27:34]
Co-ops and philanthropy [31:45]
Unions vs. co-ops and deeper structural change [34:09]
Co-ops and scale [37:44]
Access to financing [39:44]
Cultural change and moving from stakeholder capitalism to shared ownership [44:33]
Shared ownership and growth / extraction incentives [47:06]
Entity options for co-ops [49:47]

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Our guest for this episode is Robert Gilman, founder of the Context Institute. Robert is a pioneer in the sustainability movement and an elder in our midst. His career began with 30 years in astrophysics, so he is deeply versed in the mindsets of scientific thinking.

Robert is particularly interested culture and cultural change. He sees us in a moment of significant transition towards what he called the Planetary Era, where we live in harmony with our inner guidance, each other, and nature.

In this episode Jenny and Robert discuss:

Culture as a living, complex, adaptive system [3:18]
Major periods of distinct culture across the history of humanity [5:39]
The Age of Enlightenment and modern culture [10:05]
Describing the Age of Enlightenment [10:36]
The blind spots of the Age of Enlightenment [12:53]
The Age of Enlightenment and dominance [15:02]
Weakening of dominance hierarchies in modern culture [24:00]
Breaking out of the monopoly of language and linguistic thinking [28:00]
The Planetary Era [36:16]
Increasing self-awareness and self-compassion [37:45]
Moving beyond object perception and categorical thinking [38:01]
Understanding and integrating childhood trauma [39:05]
Polyvagal Theory [40:17]
Five optimal qualities to move towards [43:06]
Five pervasive childhood traumas and the unproductive patterns that result [44:49]

Resources:

The Context Institute
Bright Future Now course
Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think Like a 21st Century Economist, Kate Raworth
The 5 Personality Patterns, Steven Kessler
The Polyvagal Theory: Neurophysiological Foundations of Emotions, Attachment, Communication, and Self-regulation, Stephen Porges

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This conversation connects systemic change and big paradigm shifts to our everyday behaviors. The dominant way that we think about and speak to one another reflects a story of separation and has us regularly in a state of fight or flight. It lends itself to right/wrong thinking, extracting from one another and keeping score.

The principles and practices of nonviolent communication (NVC) offer an alternative model for human relationality, one that fosters safety, compassion, and connection. Understanding the tenets of NVC helps us embody the future we want to move towards, one rooted in abundance, cooperation, and interconnection.

Our guest for this episode, Danny Cohen, teaches nonviolent communication. His work integrates contemplative spiritual practice and wisdom traditions with trauma-informed therapeutics and practical tools for cultivating authentic human connection.

In this conversation Jenny and Danny discuss:

Dominant vs. alternative paradigms of human motivation and behavior [3:07]
The dominant paradigm and the inner critic [5:00]
The dominant paradigm, patriarchy, scarcity, and judgement of others [6:05]
Narratives of good vs. evil, compassion vs. violence [7:15]
The denial of choice and responsibility in the dominant paradigm [8:55]
The effect on our nervous systems of common ways of communicating [11:49]
The pervasiveness of blame [15:03]
Connecting to the intelligence of the body through NVC [17:44]
Myths and emotional response [20:31]
Embodied experience and systemic change [22:11]
The story of humanity underlying NVC [23:31]
Empathy, vulnerability, safety, and human connection [29:30]
Reframing unpleasant emotions [32:55]
Taking responsibility, making requests, willingness to hear no [36:50]
No as a yes to another need [40:20]
Zero sum vs. win-win outcomes [41:20]
NVC and parenting [44:40]
NVC, the gift model of exchange and how it reflects a relational vs. transactional way of being [50:25]

Resources:

The Art of Dialog, a short introduction to NVC
Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life Marshall Rosenberg, Arun Gandhi
Reweaving our Human Fabric Miki Kashtan

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In this episode we discuss governance on social media platforms, an important topic given the enormous social consequences of our reliance on them. Our guests are Columbia sociology professor Sudhir Venkatesh and Yale legal professor Tracey Meares. Sudhir and Tracy co-direct Yale's Social Media Governance Initiative, which is leading research in this field.

In this conversation, Jenny, Sudhir, and Tracey explore:

What is governance? [2:50]
Governance as a performance [5:28]
Establishing norms [7:39]
Where authority comes from [10:02]
Parallels between criminal justice and social media governance [12:57]
How to internalize rule following [13:45]
Bad actors and Facebook [16:05]
Designing for pro-social engagement [19:29]
Challenges establishing channels of communication in tech companies [23:05]
Pro-social objectives and incentive misalignment [30:00]
Who are tech platforms accountable to? [37:48]
International governance and local cultural norms [43:21]

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In this episode we address a foundational topic: governance. Governance refers to how we make decisions and act in groups, whether that be within a nation-state, a corporation, a community group, or a household. Today's challenges require collective action at a global scale. What factors should we keep in mind as we architect governance processes in various contexts?

Our guest for this episode is Forrest Landry, philosopher, writer, engineer, inventor, and entrepreneur. Forrest worked closely with Daniel Schmachtenberger and Jordan Hall in the Game B movement, where he focused on questions of governance. This is a core topic that informs many upcoming episodes, including social media governance, delegative democracy, corporate governance, and DAOs.

In this conversation, Jenny and Forrest discuss:

What is governance [4:39]
Tribal size and Dunbar's number [7:50]
Challenges with governance at scale [12:42]
Group vs. individual intelligence [16:36]
Embodied vs. abstract knowledge [18:05]
Bias towards action [25:52]
The epistemic process [31:41]
Knowledge as process [33:24]
Information, scale, and technology [36:45]
Limitations of information [40:13]
Multi-polar traps [42:39]
Dynamics of capitalism [48:35]
Arrow's theorem [57:58]
Ephemeral group process [59:28]
Phase parallax and the importance of diversity [1:03:48]
Right size for group process [1:09:02]
Governance and identity [1:17:22]

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Who are the great thinkers of the past and what can we learn from them? In this episode we cover the life and work of Buckminster Fuller, who was an architect, inventor, futurist, and prolific writer. Our guest is Amanda Joy Ravehill, former Executive Director of the Buckminster Fuller Institute.

The conversation explores:

Who was Buckminster Fuller? [2:38]
Buckmister Fuller's archive, The Chronophile[4:26]
Converting from a zero sum to a win for all game dynamic [6:16]
Amanda's tattoo of Buckminster Fuller [7:48]
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality" [9:43]
Four characteristics of design science: comprehensive [11:18]
Four characteristics of design science: anticipatory [15:10]
Four characteristics of design science: design [16:30]
Four characteristics of design science: science [17:33]
Polymaths vs. specialists [18:33]
Knowledge as wealth [20:08]
Bucky and universal basic income [21:27]
The need for the dissolution of nation states [24:08]
Spaceship earth metaphor [24:58]
Paradigm shifts and the role of art [27:12]
The concept of the trim tab [31:10]

Bucky works and ideas mentioned in the episode:

Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends and Needs
Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth
Synergetics
Grunch of Giants
Education Automation
Dymaxion Map

Other mentions:

Moral Politics, George Lakoff
Don't Think of an Elephant, George Lakoff
Design Science Primer, Medard Gabel and David Heeney
Wendell Berry

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In this episode we do a deep dive on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). MMT stems from an alternative story of money which has significant implications for governments in countries that have sovereignty over the currency it issues. Under MMT, spending does not face financial constraints, taxes and bonds do not fund government budgets, federal deficits and debt are not problematic, and the lines between fiscal and monetary policy blur completely.

We were fortunate to be joined by Andres Bernal, leading MMT proponent and former advisor to help us understand the essential topic.

In this conversation Jenny and Andres cover:

Two stories of the origin of money [3:04]
Money as a social construct [9:58]
MMT defined [12:46]
Currency issuers vs. currency users [15:15]
Spending and its relationship to taxes [16:00]
Reconsidering federal deficits[16:44]
Monetary sovereignty and MMT [17:21]
Hyperinflation and productive capacity [20:15]
MMT and the role of taxation [23:36]
MMT and bonds [26:41]
MMT and monetary policy [30:15]
Rejecting the monetarist view of the inverse relationship between unemployment and inflation [33:43]
MMT and inflation [35:55]
Drivers of today's high inflation rates [41:55]
MMT and a Job Guarantee [50:17]
Job guarantee vs. guaranteed income [55:04]
De-growth vs. post-growth [59:39]
Current MMT landscape [1:01:53]
Common misconceptions about MMT [1:03:14]

Resources

Stephanie Kelton’s Ted Talk
The Deficit Myth, Stephanie Kelton
L. Randall Wray - Modern Money Theory for Beginners L. Randall Wray lecture gets into the origin story of money
L. Randall Wray’s introductory lecture from an economist’s perspective.
“Seven Replies to the Critiques of Modern Monetary Theory” Eric Tymoigne, December 2021
The Case for a Job Guarantee, video with Ravlina Tcherneva a main advocate for the policy which is a major component of MMT
www.MoneyontheLeft.org is a useful resource for podcasts and essays

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In this episode, Jenny and Jordan Hall discuss their experiences and systemic perspectives as parents in modern society.

This conversation covers:

Unraveling the meaningfulness of becoming a parent [3:01]
Exploring interrelationships between parents, kids, extended family, and community [7:15]
"Stewarding the soul of another human being" [9:55]
Some historical and cultural contexts of parenting today (Game A) [11:55]
Riane Eisler's work on Partnerism [22:23]
Elaborating the concept of Game A parenting [24:33]
How preschools can help us be better parents [35:24]
Exploring the ideals and constraints of Game B parenting [36:47]
Finding the right relationship between parenting and professional identities [56:00]
Prioritizing both parents in the next wave of feminism [58:37]
Framing a design question for evolving the interconnected systems of parenting [1:04:24]

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In this episode, Marta Ceroni joins us to discuss systems thinking. The focus of our conversation is the life and work of Donella Meadows, a distinguished systems and environmental thinker in the mid-late 20th century. Ceroni stewards Meadows' archives and furthers her work as co-director at the Academy for Systems Change.

In our conversation, Marta and Jenny discuss Meadow's life, the key attributes of complex systems, and some of the leverage points to influence the outcomes of a system. They talk about the importance of information flows, being conscious of paradigms, and how we can move out of our heads and into our bodies to inform systems change.

"We can't control systems or figure them out, but we can dance with them" [3:30]
Marta's background [5:35]
Meadows' background, education, and travels abroad [9:22]
Key attributes of a system [15:26]
Leverage points to change a system [22:00]
Importance and power dynamics of information flows [22:24]
Meadows' highest-ranked leverage points [24:11]
Realizing the paradigm that there are paradigms [30:21]
Moving beyond the intellect to the embodied aspects of systems thinking [32:45]
The impacts of trauma and trauma-healing in a system [37:52]
Meadows' envisioning talk and guided practice [40:49]
Meadows' ecovillage [43:26]
About the Academy for Systems Change [49:41]

Resources:

The Donella Meadows Projectat the Academy for Systems Changestewards an archive of her life and work
Cobb Hill the on-going ecovillage that was her work and vision
Denizen's summary of Meadow's work, Lessons from Donella Meadows.

Notable writings and talks from Donella Meadows:

Thinking in Systems: A Primer this short and accessible book covers her essentials for systems thinking
Dancing with Systems this essay outlines some of her most essential ideas
Limits to Growth (1972) she was the lead author of this pioneering study about the sustainability of economic growth
Envisioning a Sustainable World a speech by Meadows that offers the experience of visioning the world we want to bring into being
Video archives of her teaching

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In this episode, we look at the role of art in activism and social change. Our guest, Aaron Huey, has created visuals for many of the most important movements of our time, from climate change to indigenous rights to economic justice.

We talk about Huey's background as a National Geographic photojournalist, his 2010 TED Talk about indigenous rights, the role of visual art and activism, why street art is particularly impactful, and space hacking, how design thinking integrates into his work.

Huey's background [2:12]
His 2010 TED Talk about indigenous rights [3:25]
His transition from photojournalism into activism [5:14]
How street hard effectively confronts people, and "space hacking" [12:21]
Building on cultural lineages [14:59]
His "We the People" campaign in 2017 [15:57]
His follow-on "We the Future" campaign [18:45]
Activism as a compass and an invitation [19:40]
Designing for movement amplification [21:49]
Finding the right relationship with complexity [23:28]
Distributing into schools [27:10]
Combining analog and digital mediums [31:04]
Every dollar is a vote [34:26]
How his work is supported [36:27]
His cross-country walk in 2002 after 9/11 [39:04]

Resources

Shepard Fairey influential artist & activist behind the Obama "Hope" poster
America's native prisoners of war Huey's 2010 TED Talk
Denizen's Theory of Change essay

Amplier's campaigns

We the People & We the Future begun at the 2017 U.S. presidential inauguration
RESET Capitalism & Imperative 21 about reforming capitalism
Amplifer's full campaign list

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In this episode we explore and parse apart three distinct elements of atonement: telling the truth, acknowledging and apologizing for harms, and taking direct action to repair. As this conversation underscores, atonement represents just one element of a more complex set of reforms necessary to address systemic oppression. Absent a broader effort, the very harms reparations seeks to address would perpetuate.

Denise, Sam, and Zaheer's personal reflections make this conversation especially powerful. Denise expresses the labor involved in bringing this topic to light, Sam shares his experience atoning and paying restitution for the crime that had him spend 24 years in prison, and Zaheer highlights the ways in which our mindsets of individuality inhibit our ability to take responsibility for each other.

Discussion summary:

Framing the topic and this moment for social justice [1:00]
The story of Bruce's Beach in Los Angeles; "what is an apology without an action behind it?" [4:36]
Missing elements from South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and recent activity in the U.S. Congress [7:47]
Reparations as part of the broader racial problems and history of the U.S. [9:22]
"Do we believe ourselves to be one body?" Addressing and repairing a wound in the body that we all share [11:48]
Accounting for atrocities that happened generations ago [17:26]
Moving beyond the narrative of the self-made person [22:32]
"all men are created equal" and truthtelling [23:27]
Cycles of poverty [24:41]
Myth of the meritocracy [29:15]
Justice and restitution in museum culture [30:33]
Assessing the current moment [43:08]
What is enough and what is sufficient? [46:39]

Resources

Why We Need Reparations for Black Americans Brookings, April 2020

Current events

California Panel Sizes Up Reparations for Black Citizens New York Times, December 1, 2022
H.Con.Res.19 - Urging the establishment of a United States Commission on Truth, Racial Healing, and Transformation proposed in February 2021; referred to subcommittee in April 2021
H.R.40 - Commission to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals for African Americans Act introduced January 2021

Historic references

The Radical Republicans movement (1850s)
Forty Acres and a Mule & General Sherman's Special Field Orders No. 15 from the Civil War.
Bruce's Beach, a black-owned resort that was taken by eminent domain in 1924
The Rosewood massacre (1923) and the pursuit of reparations in Florida
Germany's restitution to Holocaust victims (1945-2018)
Civil Liberties Act of 1988 reparations to Japanese Americans for internment during WWII
Truth and Reconciliation Commission 1996-2003 in South Africa

Books cited

Caste: the Origins of our Discontents by Isabel Wilkerson
When Affirmative Action Was White by Ira Katznelson
Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome: America's Legacy of Enduring Injury and Healing by Joy DeGruy
From Here to Equality, Second Edition: Reparations for Black Americans in the Twenty-First Century by William A. Darity and A. Kirsten Mullen

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Partnerism is both a social and economic system. Based on the principles of equitable partnership, it reaches across the spectrum of society — gender studies, family systems, organizations, cultures, and political systems — as a movement towards a more just and caring society. Overall, it shifts paradigms from hierarchies of domination to hierarchies of actualization.

This has been the life's work of our guest for this episode, Riane Eisler. She is a social scientist, cultural historian, attorney, and Holocaust survivor whose transciplinary exploration is making a lasting impact in the social sciences and society-at-large.

This episode also features the contributions of three Denizens who are building on Riane's work in distinct ways - movement-building, storytelling, and economic change.

In this episode, our deep dive on partnerism includes:

Introducing Riane and her story [2:39]
Introducing partnerism [4:29]
The domination-partnership scale [10:32]
Four cornerstones of transitioning from domination to partnership cultures [16:55]
Quantifying the economic value of care [22:51]
Shifting narratives from domination to partnership [27:10, 39:28]
Introducing The Chalice and the Blade [28:21]
Nations modeling the shift to partnerism [29:31]
Introducing Rosie von Lila [32:36]
Introducing Catherine Connors [39:28]
Introducing Donnie Maclurcan [49:25]

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We all know about all the things that are wrong with social media as we know it. It's a model where everything is centralized and the market dynamics foster very few competitors who just get bigger and have more power. Who builds? Who governs? Who owns? Where are the servers? Where do the applications sit? Where does the data live? It's largely in just a few companies that in many cases have walled gardens of content. This dominant model yields a tremendous centralization of power for tech executives who are incentivized by market dynamics, to grow and to extract and to capture more and more of our attention. So, how do we get ourselves out of this mess? Does the answer lie in decentralized social media?

Our guest for this episode is Evan Henshaw-Plath, veteran Silicon Valley engineer and CEO of Planetary, a decentralized social network.

In this episode we cover all things decentralized social media, including:

The story of Twitter's "original sin" where it abandoned a federated model for a centralized one [4:14]
A framework to think about decentralization across the Internet and social media [12:22]
Distinctions between web3 and the dWeb (decentralized web) [15:18]
What a protocol is, why it’s a core element of decentralized social media, and the current landscape of protocols [15:33, 23:37]
Architecture and design considerations at protocol vs. app levels [28:39]
Big debates in the decentralized social media space [31:31]
Issues with blockchain based solutions [36:28]
Evan’s vision for decent social media and what he’s up to with his startup, Planetary [38:56]

Resources:

Denizen's writeup on decentralized social media
Planetary's homepage
Evan's homepage
What obligation do social media platforms have to the greater good: A TED Talk by Eli Pariser
‍My first impressions of web3: by Moxie Marlinspike, who founded Signal
The Battle for the Soul of the Web, The Atlantic Oct 2022
dWeb principles‍
‍Web3 is Self-Certifying: by Jay Graber, the CEO of Twitter's spinout Bluesky

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Charles is the author of several books, including The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible and Sacred Economics. His work spans multiple pillars of the Denizen Inquiry, including economics, culture, and consciousness.

In this episode, Charles and Jenny discuss gift economics, a very different model of exchange than capitalism. In a gift economy, goods and services are given away as gifts without an explicit agreement on giving anything in return. This does not mean there is no financial exchange -- in many cases, the consumer opts into paying an amount that is determined at their discretion after the good or service has been received.

Gift economies are moderated by social norms and were the dominant form of exchange in many indigenous cultures. Critically, gift economies are circular and relational as opposed to a transactional, and thus present a compelling example of a non-extractive economic model that is more aligned with natural law.

This episode covers:

Why gift models more aligned with human nature [4:40]
How gift economies induce gratitude and reciprocity [7:21]
The essential cultural component of gift economies [12:06]
Why the gift is a natural model for digital goods[13:24]
How gift economies engender circularity vs. hoarding [15:38]
Intellectual property and the collective inheritance of humanity [22:00]
Charles' experience stepping into a gift model in his own work [26:20]
Implementing a gift model [29:53]
The circular, relational vs. transactional nature of gift economies [32:00]
How the circularity of gift economies mimic nature [32:47]
Navigating boundaries between gift and market economies [34:18]
Synchronicity and the gift [36:50]

Resources

The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible, Charles Eisenstein
Sacred Economics, Charles Eisenstein
The Gift, Lewis Hyde

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Universal basic income has gotten a lot of attention in the past five years. What is universal basic income, and why might it be a compelling component of a just society? How did the pandemic accelerate the possibility to adopting cash assistance in various forms?

Our guests for this episode are Natalie Foster and Dorian Warren, co-founders of the Economic Security Project which has spearheaded some tremendously impactful work around guaranteed income in the United States over the past few years.

In this episode, we do a deep dive on universal basic income and guaranteed income, including:

What universal basic income (UBI) is [2:15]
Its funding sources and costs [3:42, 34:31]
Four arguments for it from a political theory perspective [3:44]
Practical arguments from the macro and microeconomic points of view [8:24]
Distinguishing "guaranteed income" from UBI [11:14]
Historical influences and the movement of poverty abolitionism [16:03]
Valuing the care economy [19:24]
Complementary views from Buckminster Fuller, Milton Friedman, and Charles Eisenstein [20:42]
Incorporating solidarity economics [21:39]
Policy experiments, especially in Stockton, California [23:24]
How recipients spent the money and were affected [26:00]
Mayors for Guaranteed Income and pilots currently underway around the United States [32:17]
Going behind the scenes of social change work [35:42]
The narrative, cultural and political elements of power [39:00]
Similarities to social security [41:13]
Sources of excitement and hope [46:06]

Resources

Economic Security Project
UBI overview (Stanford Basic Income Lab)
Political Theory for Universal Basic Income, by Juliana Uhuru Bidadanure (highly recommended)
Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?: Martin Luther King Jr.'s final manuscript with a vision to abolish poverty
Solidarity Economics: Why Mutuality and Movements Matter, by Manuel Pastor and Chris Benner
The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, by Heather McGhee

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What might a socio-economic system look like that yields human flourishing in harmony with the rest of life on Earth? And, how might we implement strategies to transition from where we are today to such a system? These are the two questions at the center of the Becoming Denizen podcast. This introduction gives additional context on the scope of the podcast and the six pillars we explore: economics, politics, technology, culture, consciousness, and justice.

Denizen: Recent Episodes

Jenny Stefanotti