Interviews – It Matters To Me Podcast: Recent Episodes

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“We weren’t having like a group therapy session. We weren’t talking about this one time in Iraq or this one, you know, that’s not what the program is. We were talking about Robert Frost and two roads diverge into what all of a sudden we’re having these discussions and some of them, you know, do reflect on our past in the military and most of them do, that’s kind of the framework.

Right. But it was this like intentional, very deliberate way for us just to get talking and sharing some emotions, being vulnerable.“

Founded in Aspen, Colorado in January 2013, Huts For Vets provides at no cost to participants, wilderness and communal experiences as therapeutic healing for U.S. veterans and active-duty service members.

Erik Villasenor is their Executive Director and being an Army veteran himself with combat deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan, he was once a participant at a retreat before stepping into the leadership role he has now.

Additional Links

Huts For Vets (Website): https://hutsforvets.org/

Huts For Vets (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/hutsforvets/

Huts For Vets (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBnZp3n-6whnzJ6A34UaJNg

It Matters To Me (Instagram): ⁠https://www.instagram.com/itmatterstomepodcast⁠

It Matters To Me (YouTube): ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@itmatterstomepodcast⁠

TranscriptEric, how are you doing today? Welcome to the show. I’m doing well, Adam. Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, this is an honor to have you on because not only is the organization that you work for. Something that’s near and dear to my heart, but you’re also a fellow veteran. And I feel like every time I get the chance to, to have a genuine conversation with a fellow veteran, um, it just makes this whole podcast that much more special.

So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. So you are the executive director of an organization called Hutts for Vets. We’re going to get into what that stands for, what you all do, what your mission is. But before we do. One way I like to start the show is with a question that’s a little bit more personal.

And that question is, If I knew you growing up, what kinds of stories would I tell about you? Right on, yeah. Thanks for having me, Adam. This question kind of gave me a chuckle. But if you were to tell some stories about me, about growing up, they’d probably be stories of me and the kids in the neighborhood that I kind of grew up in or spent most of my childhood in building sketchy ramps and skating them, having all my friends in the neighborhood over to my backyard and just putting together these probably not the safest ramps to be skating on with very limited material and knowledge of how to actually build anything.

I’m just having fun outside, you know, I feel like I’m part of that last generation that kind of was forced to play outside and, and, you know, mingle with your neighbors and stuff like that. So, yeah, there’d be stories like, like that. And you have kids yourself, don’t you? Yeah, yeah, I’m a father. We have, I have two kids, a seven year old daughter and a five year old son.

Do you push them to go outside? Like you did. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. We’re mountain biking in the summer here where we just got some, a program in, in this town where I live in where they bring like hockey and ice skating to the community. And we’ve been on the ice like every night since it started and I’m over there freezing bundled up and they are just enjoying themselves, you know, and we like to hike and this last summer we also got up to some rock climbing.

So, yeah, raising, raising kids in Colorado is fun. Much like in adulthood, there’s no shortage of shiny objects, I think, to keep us entertained. Unfortunately, some of them turn out to be quite expensive. I just, I wish, I sometimes, as much as I love living in Colorado, I just wish that I had gotten into something like, I wish I had really gotten into chess growing up to be honest, low key.

I’m sure that, you know, it has its own travel expenses, but we joke about that, but that’s really cool. And I think the pushing your kids to be outside and part of that being part of your own story is definitely going to come up when we talk a little bit more about Hutz for bets, but Before we do that, you know, like I mentioned, the outset was Huts4Vets.

It’s in the name. It’s for veterans. You yourself are a veteran. How do you go from building, I’m going to call them sketchy bike ramps, sketchy BMS bike ramps to, uh, being a soldier in the army? So that journey, well, it’s, I mean, pretty straightforward. I was, you know, in high school. I was not the best student, unfortunately.

I did pass and I did graduate, but it wasn’t, It was something that was very much like a hurdle after hurdle after hurdle for me to get over, and I started getting, becoming aware that, oh, we’re gonna graduate, and we’re gonna leave this, you know, kind of space, and we’re gonna enter the real world, and I started hearing kids going to this college and that college, and it got accepted here, and it got accepted there, and I’m just going, Oh my gosh, like, I don’t have a plan, really, like, I didn’t really, unfortunately, didn’t put too much thought into that.

And I joined in 2005, at the height of, you know, the surge of Iraq and Afghanistan just started getting kicked off as well, and You know, the army was, was actively recruiting in my area and I saw an opportunity to go do something and to go do something positive or what I thought was positive and I didn’t really know this at the time, but it was, it was a way to really test my mettle, so to speak.

You know, I was heavily influenced by Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ride. I know it’s cheesy as that might sound, but. Was rewatching these movies and really thinking to myself, what would I do in these situations? How would I react in these situations? And boy, did the army give me those types of scenarios.

I joined as an infantryman again, you know, didn’t fully, I mean, I kind of had an idea of what that was, but it was pretty young and naive and, you know, it was 17 when I joined, so I was very much, you Still, you know, a kid, so to speak, didn’t really have any real world experiences. I signed the contract in 2005 and by the fall of 2006 I was deployed to Iraq and on patrols every day, and you learn a lot of life lessons really, really quickly on on a deployment, especially a 15 month deployment.

You’re saying you. You walked into a recruiter’s office and within a year you were already in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yes. So for me, I didn’t commission until 2012. I got out in 2016. So I was a few years after you, but even then there was still a need. This was after the surge for sure. So that kind of played a role.

And I think just the route that I chose to go down the officer route, I think. Little bit of a role, but I mean, it took me years. It took me years to get into, you know, air quotes, the real military and so. When I meet people like you and I meet people that join so early on and it’s just crazy how that pipeline was so quick and how, you know, it really was something like you had to be careful going into a recruiter’s office and what you signed because it felt like, Hey, if you signed on the dotted line, like there’s a bus out back waiting to take you to bootcamp, if you’re ready.

Absolutely. Yeah, that’s how it was for me. You know, I was, I was. Kind of the ideal recruit, you know, no tattoos, no jail record, had a high school diploma, relatively fit. And so the pipeline was very streamlined. And I did find myself in Iraq pretty, pretty quickly thereafter. And I ended up only serving four years with two combat deployments, one to Iraq, one to Afghanistan, which was pretty good.

They were pretty much one right after another. And, um, that was the trend in those days as, as you may remember. And I, I quickly saw that I didn’t want to be part of that trend. I was like, I can’t do this one year on one year off type of thing. And, and in the infantry, you’re rolling the dice, you know, the more exposure to combat you get, the higher the risks go up.

And my enlistment was up and, and I had just met my wife here in Colorado Springs and I was just like, you know, I’m going to get out while I can. It was time to get out and using those GI Bill benefits. I got into art school of all places. So I went from the being in the infantry unit to the complete other side of the spectrum in art school in Denver.

So that was another experience in all of itself. For me, going from just Marine infantry back to school up in Boulder, especially being 30 years old and doing another bachelor’s, so most of my classmates were 18. I had some very critical thoughts about my fellow classmates because, you know, for me as a, Platoon commander, having 18 year old Marines in my platoon, I’d be in class and I’d look at like some 18 year old who clearly just got high before class.

And I’m like, I fucking hate you. I hate everything about you. You don’t measure up to what I know other 18 year olds can be. So looking back at your experience in, and I’m definitely not trying to put myself in your shoes or anyone else’s shoes that saw combat, but I would love to hear you. Talk about your experience, maybe not the gritty details, but in hindsight, how different was your experience in the army versus what you expected it to be at 17, having just probably watched black off down, you know, I just think you come face to face with, with reality and, and this kind of like life gets really boiled down to bare necessities.

And that was something. Right. You know, the movies try to show that and you hear people talk about it, but until you’ve literally come to depend on the person next to you, you know, you don’t really, it’s hard to really understand that and grasp that. And I think that was something that I just, I wasn’t aware of that until, you know, I went through those experiences.

And it was something that is missed not only by me, but, you know, many other folks that serve in combat and not in combat. You know, you just don’t get that camaraderie. That sense of brotherhood in kind of everyday life. And I also just remember experiencing this really huge amount of confidence knowing these are my brothers to my side.

Like we can do anything together. We can do anything. And whether that’s combat operations out of a patrol base in Afghanistan, or it’s You know, back in the rear with the gear doing the mundane stuff. Like we can literally do anything and just having that confidence was just as a game changer, really.

And I don’t know about you, but for me, the longer I’m out, the more I think nostalgic I become and the less, the less shit I remember of how much it sucked. And you look more back at times where it’s that type two fun where like, man, this really blows, but like, Hey, I’m with some really cool dudes. And so the longer that you’ve been out, what do you think you miss the most about being in the military?

I think for me, it’s purpose, mission, and just being part of a team. Honestly, I, I work remote also, well, aside from when we’re running these trips, but our team is kind of spread out throughout the United States and Colorado. And we don’t get a whole lot of, you know, face time. And whenever we do, and especially when we’re running these trips, like, that’s, I just like being part of a team and having, A bigger goal, bigger mission to work towards.

That is something that I most definitely miss. And, and also just having, knowing you have like a support system. Yeah, there’s maybe some chinks in the support system here and there. But overall, you have a support system there for you when, when it’s needed. And that’s one of the things that I miss most definitely is just that.

That’s so true. We talked before and I, and I’ve talked with one of your coworkers, who’s also in, was in the military. And one thing that we kind of touched on, and it’d be a mistake if a podcast episode came out and I didn’t talk about base jumping at least once, but that’s something that I identify with in the base community is just that ability, maybe Teamwork isn’t the best way to describe it, but that sense of camaraderie around some things where it’s like, Hey, we’re both, uh, huck ourselves off with something real stupid, but we’re in this together.

And it’s always hard for me to articulate kind of why I elevate the base jumping community above some of the other ones that I’ve been in and kind of compare it to that being in the military. You’re, you’re an avid mountain biker, correct? Yeah. Have you found any sort of relationships within the mountain biking community that kind of fulfill you in the same way that the military did?

And obviously, mountain biking is completely different than military, and a hard day on a mountain bike is going to be completely different than going out on patrol in Iraq in 2007. Yes, absolutely, Adam. You know, I moved after going to art school, moved to the western sub of Colorado to a small town called Rifle, and I started mountain biking while I was in Colorado Springs at Fort Carson with, with some, you know, one of my buddies that I served with, but in school, living in Denver, didn’t really touch my mountain bike a whole lot, get to Rifle and I’m like, well, there’s got to be trails out here.

There’s got to be people who ride out here. You know, Rifle at the time wasn’t really known as a mountain biking place. Uh, but quickly found out that there was a small community called Rambo, which is Rifle Area mountain biking organization. And they’re just a small club of enthusiasts and through this club, through mountain biking and more specifically, probably through trail building.

I did find that community, you know, where we’re. I actually had a hand in creating and helping bring this project to life of bringing 18 miles of brand new trail here to Rifle. And this project and the way the community came together did kind of bring some of that back for me, you know, and it was really the first time where I was able to experience that outside of the military.

Of course, Obviously, there’s the right mountain bike, you know, it can’t really compare the two, but it was it was that we had a bigger goal, you know, to reach, and we all worked together to do it. And I specifically mentioned trail building because, you know, you got to you got to recon an area you’ve got to.

Carry in tools. I mean, I use some of my old, like an old assault pack that I had in the army to do some of this stuff. And, you know, you have to plan and you have to have, you know, if you forget a tool back at the trailhead, like, guess what, you’re hiking the two miles back to go get it, or you’re not going to have that tool and that’s a little bit similar to, you know, planning a patrol in the army or something like you had to be prepared and you got to rely on, on the small team that you’re And I’m glad you mentioned that.

Cause that came. After my first Hutts for vets trip back in 2015, it was only after that point that I finally kind of like let my guard down, so to speak, and kind of say, you know, what, what else is there, you know, in this outdoor space, you know, is there, what, what other communities can be explored. And that’s really where my journey starts with Hutts for vets is, is getting outside.

And it was through hiking, through mountain biking, through trail building. That I did eventually kind of find that similar camaraderie. And it’s, it’s been a staple in my life up until this point. Beautiful. I love it when it works out this way and we can easily transition now into the work that you do.

And I think you, you, uh, alone deserve credit for that or else. Cause I would have been talking about all sorts of other things. So, uh, thank you for helping keep us on track. So the teamwork, this is that teamwork we’re talking about. So I have a fear that I will. put my foot in my mouth, even if I’m just reading text from a page, which would be the mission statement of Huts for Vets.

I would love for you to introduce the listener to what Huts for Vets is, and then if you wouldn’t mind telling your story of how you first came across them. Yeah. I mean, so our, our mission as it’s written out, you know, it’s to help veterans adjust to and enjoy civilian life by gaining tools for enhancing mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health.

And. So that’s how it’s written out on our website. And how we do this is by bringing veterans from across the United States to Colorado, to our base camp. And we have, you know, we offer wilderness therapy retreats. So we take this unconventional nature based approach to mental health and wellbeing. Our programs offer, you know, guided hikes, group discussions.

Community building activities. We address the person as, as a whole, you know, we, we, we say frequently on our trips, mind, body, spirit, and we’re, we are really trying to do that. We have, we offer like intentional experiences, wilderness experiences. So we’re not just saying that we’re going to go hike up to this hut and we’re going to hang out there for a couple of days.

Like we talk about all along this hike. You know, it’s, it’s in a pristine wilderness area along, depending on what hut, but my favorite hike is along a creek and, you know, we, we set off this, we set the trip off with, you know, some quotes from Thoreau and Edward Abbey. And, you know, we encourage our participants to open up their senses, slow down a little bit.

You know, if we’re not racing to the top to get to the, to the hut, you know, we’re, we’re going to be deliberate and intentional. So, yeah, that’s, that’s kind of it in a mouthful, I guess. We can, we can break it down as you, as, as we go along here. And, uh, what is your introduction story to Hutz for Vets? So, I first got involved with Hutz for Vets back in 2015.

I had just moved. We just graduated, my wife and I just graduated college, and we just moved to the Western Slope. And, you know, I went into college. Like I got out in September and I was in college like October. So I really had no decompression time, no time to process. I was just kind of like, you know, art school, graphic design, learning, graphic design, like that provided a really good distraction from my four years, you know, in my two deployments, I was visiting the VA here and here and there going through that whole, you know, disability process, but never really took the time to focus on processing events, traumas, and taking some time for myself, intentionally.

So it was actually through the VA, one of these VA appointments, where I was handed a brochure for HUDS for Vets. And the psychologist is, was just like, I strongly recommend that you I lived like maybe 45 minutes away from the base camp and she kind of told me what it was. And I’m like, Oh man, this sounds like a bunch of hippie BS.

Like, I don’t, I don’t want to have anything to do. Do they give out Birkenstocks? Exactly. I was, I was very apprehensive and I pulled up the website, discussed with my wife. I was like, well, this is kind of, you know, what she’s recommending. And my wife’s like, well, there’s the application right here. Why don’t you just fill it out?

And man, that application was just on my open on my computer screen for like a couple of weeks and I would kind of like each day. Peck away at it and fill out a section. And I’m like, I don’t know if I want to do this. You know? I mean, it was just kind of like, man, I don’t know, really apprehensive, but yeah, I got a call from Paul Anderson, the founder and then executive director.

And he said, we’d love to have you out. And he’s, he seemed like a really cool guy, really, you know, humble and down to earth. And I was like, okay, cool. You know, somebody called me. They’re going to, they’re going to offer me a spot. I’ll take it. And. Wow. That decision, man, that made literally all the difference.

I went, I met a group of guys that were all kind of on, on struggling with different things and, and our, you know, some were from, we had a Vietnam veteran on our trip. We had Desert Storm. We had a pretty good mix. It was all, it was all men and just, uh, the experience, you know, Paul and his team then really pulled out all the stops with the food.

And I think a component of the program that I was really surprised about that, that I was surprised that I actually enjoyed was the philosophical discussions that we were having or moderated discussions that we were having. Paul had mailed me a notebook, you know, about a month before, and it was filled with poetry, everything from Shakespeare to Robert Frost at the road.

It was kind of thick. And I was like, Oh man, we have like homework. Yeah, I got reading assignments to do. Like, what is this? And, and that was a piece that, That I really, I mean, obviously I love the nature component also, but coming around the table and having a moderator ask us questions about the piece and even reading some of the piece as a group.

We weren’t having like a group therapy session. We weren’t talking about, Oh, that was this with this one time in Iraq or this, you know, that’s not what the program was or is. We were talking about Robert Frost and two roads diverge into wood and we, you know, all of a sudden we’re having these discussions.

And some of them, you know, do reflect on our past in the military. And most of them do. That’s kind of the framework, right? But it wasn’t like a dick measuring contest or sharing war stories. It was this like intentional, very deliberate way for us just to get talking and sharing some emotions, being vulnerable.

And that’s really where the magic happens. And I just had a really wonderful experience. The camaraderie, that camaraderie was rekindled. I stay in touch with a couple of the guys there that I’ve met, and actually some of them have come back for a trip. And that first trip really helped me, it gave me the space that I needed to process some things that I haven’t really processed.

I kind of had a new relationship with nature that was formed, you know, but before that, my last time being in the mountains was in the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan. And I didn’t have a positive relationship with nature at the time it was associated with. Afghanistan and combat in the Taliban. And so I kind of had to work through these things on this trip.

So I did a lot of, a lot of growth. And, and at the end of the trip, Paul goes, well, you’re local. So, you know, if you want to volunteer next year, you know, as a, as a peer mentor or whatever, you’re welcome to, I was like, absolutely. And that was how it started. And I just kept going. I kept, if I was invited to do something with Hudson Reds, I was there.

I’d come back for a trip a year, each summer, then that snowballed into helping Paul set up the website. No good deed goes unpunished. Absolutely. And I was happy to do it. I was happy to stay involved and help as much as I could, you know, and. It really did snowball from there, Adam, and to, to now where I am today as being the executive director, just so, so blessed and really thankful for the opportunity to, to carry on, you know, what Paul has started and grow the team a little bit.

And yeah, we can get into all that though. There’s so many streets we could wander down on this. And one thing before we get off track, Paul himself, he was never in the military, was he? Correct. Yeah, Paul civilian. In fact, he, he talks about this, you know, he protested the Vietnam war. He never protested the soldiers.

And you know, when he first mentioned that and the introduction, my very first time meeting him in, in the Hutch for vets on a trip, that’s kind of, that’s as part of his introduction. And I’m going, Oh, who, what? Like, we’re about four or five days with a guy who is not a vet. I didn’t really know that at first.

And it’s not something he, you know, he, it’s part of his introduction, but. Yeah, I was just really surprised and through that trip, I learned that Paul had a really good heart and big heart and was really trying to help veterans. He read somewhere the statistic for, you know, the 22 a day statistic and was just appalled.

He’s like, we need to be doing more. What can we be doing to be doing more? And he, he really put this whole thing together. The notebook is, is all his readings and this layout is, is his foundation. And he saw, he saw a way to help veterans decompress and cope with some of this stuff. And it’s, it’s amazing.

It’s, it’s, it’s just a really great thing. And when it comes to that decompression, I don’t, I don’t think anyone’s going to be surprised by the fact that like being outdoors is really good for your mental health and being outdoors with people who have somewhat similar experiences really is good for you to open up doors.

about yours. So I don’t, I don’t want to ask the obvious question of why do you think the outdoors is funny? Like we get it. It’s fucking beat outside. It’s great. But as, but when it comes to that decompression, I’m personally just interested to hear How, how does that conversation get started? Does someone just maybe along the hike to the hut just get the ball rolling and say, Hey, yeah, I was in the army, I was in infantry.

I was in Afghanistan in 2007. I went on this patrol and I saw the person in front of me get blown up by an IED and I and I, I had to be the one to take care of ’em. I had to call the medevac, or, you know, I, I was in charge of the CVAC plan and stuff like that. How, how does that conversation get started?

Yeah, that’s a good question. The discussions that we have are all moderated and they’re based on our notebook of readings. And some of that is, you know, comp, like veteran related stuff. And, and some of that is, you know, non veteran, I mean, like Henry David Thoreau is like, that’s not combat stuff, right?

But it’s through these discussions where a lot of this, a lot of the, the, the thinking time is, is being done and. You know, there, there’ll be a time in the trip where a veteran is sharing his thoughts on something related to the piece. And then he starts sharing maybe some things that he’s struggling with and everyone just listens.

And that’s kind of how I’ve seen these play out. We don’t really have, like, a structured therapy time, so to speak. Each trip does have a licensed therapist on the trip, but the intent of the trip is, is really not. Like a group therapy session, so to speak, but these conversations do happen and they do come up and, and we see that as a positive, you know, we, we, cause it, it means that we’ve curated a space where, you know, the veteran feels like, you know, Hey, this is a good time to bring this up.

These are the people that are going to really, really, you know, safe space, brave space, whatever you want to call it. And so. Yeah, that’s, that’s kind of how it happens. We don’t tip, we don’t really, we, we don’t necessarily say like, now’s the time for you to share your experiences. Like we’re, we’re not, and that’s not really our intent, but it does happen naturally and organically through our discussions, I guess, is the short answer.

Yeah, I didn’t imagine that you would have a schedule sent out ahead of time and being like, okay, at 1730, everyone’s going to start crying. There is a itinerary, so to speak, where we’re very relaxed and very flexible, you know, once you get out into the woods and into nature and away from Wi Fi and further away, you get away from everything with a group, like all of a sudden things start to happen.

So we don’t keep a rigorous schedule, but we do have a schedule, but typically in the evening after dinner. Is what we call just like free time or unstructured time. Like there’s going to be no moderate discussions essentially. And you know, time to relax, time to kick back, decompress, somebody go get the fire started and it’s really there that.

I think these conversations start to happen, you know, bonds start to being formed and and there might be some, some, you know, war story swapping, but there is again, we’ve kind of established like we’re up here for intentional experiences. So, like, if the conversation, like, you know, if you’re going to bring up something that’s going to completely derail that, like, maybe don’t bring it up or maybe talk about it with, you know, our therapist who’s up there.

So, yeah, we are intentional about setting those boundaries. And when it comes to. Maybe a success or a story that that stands out to you of someone who came into a trip. One person and maybe, you know, we don’t have to, if it’s not a true story, it doesn’t need to be told. But if someone comes in and by the time that they leave, you could, you could tell that they’re.

They carry themselves differently. Is there anyone like that that comes to mind or maybe even on a longer timeline? Is there anyone that, you know, beyond yourself that you could say that you’ve seen them from day one showing up and being either the timid guy who was too afraid to talk about his own experiences or, you know, the Dick measuring guy who all he wanted to do was talk about his pumps in Iraq and Afghanistan and, and has, but then Now, that person is someone completely different.

Do you have any, again, air quotes, like success stories or stories of, of someone notable? You don’t have to use details, but someone that sticks out in your mind like that? Yeah, absolutely. There’s, there’s a lot of stories like this that you mentioned, and I guess I can leave out names, but there was this one veteran who came on my first trip.

We’re hiking up and you can just hear like the pills in his pocket rattling like all of you know His pill bottles were rattling and I even asked him like what like what are you carrying in your pocket? He’s like, oh, those are the meds man. I’m like, oh wow. That’s a shit ton of meds, dude You carried Skittle?

Yeah, exactly and you know, I He was, you know, very quiet and, and so was I, I think a lot of people are actually like that at first, but he was very quiet, didn’t really want to share, you know, he would read when asked, but was kind of pretty much a closed book the entire time. He, you know, a couple of years.

So yeah, that happens. And then a couple of years later, he comes back on a trip and it happened to be a trip that I was volunteering on and, you know, he’s beaming. He goes, I needed to come back because I needed to redo this. I needed to have, I needed to reframe that first. That first experience, you know, really, A lot of things were revealed to him and that he could be, you know, making some change in his life.

And he, he did want to get off the meds. And he comes back and he’s smiling. He gave me a hug and I’m just going, what, like, dude, how are you? Like, tell me what’s been a couple of years, what’s going on. And he’s just like, I got off the meds. I started doing yoga. You know, I’m, I got involved with this other organization and, and I wanted to come back and just, You know, help any way, any way I can.

And, and, you know, that first trip, I just didn’t really soak it all in and I’m here to soak it all in. I remember the hike being very difficult for him. So he had gone on like a little bit of a fitness journey and to get prepared. And he was just night and day. And, and I was sitting around the fire with Paul.

And I remember Paul just saying like, man, how about this guy? Like, look, look at him, look at him now. And I’m just like, I know, man, that’s such an impressive turnaround. And, and Adam, there’s, there’s a lot of. veterans that have similar stories like that, you know, and I can actually go on and About all of them, you know and Myself included honestly, I I really I am a different person from that first trip in many in so many different ways and I think for us success what that looks like is is What our trip offers is is a reset for so many people and We’ve had people on our trips that happen, the trip coincides with around like a lot of life changing events that are happening.

You know, they’re leaving jobs, they’re leaving careers, maybe a divorce, maybe they’re getting married. And that trip seems to be happening at a time where they need the space and they need the time to really reflect and to decide like, okay, I am going to do this, or I’m not going to do that to make some hard decisions.

And, you know, just kudos to all our applicants and our participants who come out. And, uh, you know, take that leap of faith, so to speak, and, and do the work, you know, not a lot of people wants to, not a lot of people want to do that. They don’t want to do the work when it comes to their own mental health or some of the issues that they may have, may be experiencing from the military.

And I feel like our program does offer just this, this. This intentional space where if you need some, if you need some time to be, yeah, no one’s going to judge you, no one’s going to judge you. Seriously. Yeah. We, and we say that, yeah, like this is a judgment free zone and so yeah, Adam, there’s, I can go on and on, on success stories about veterans.

Well, damn, I wish I had asked that question earlier. I mean, yeah. Yeah, it’s, that’s good. It’s great. And, and story that you did tell that it was hard to maybe to, to single out that specific one, but I definitely don’t doubt that there’s other ones like that because, you know, if, to me, It sounds like coming on a Huts4Vets trips and just your own story of having that application open and you know, you didn’t just sit down and do it in one go.

It was, it took a lot, it took time, but once you get the ball rolling on these things and once you take that first step and that first step might’ve just been, Hey, I’m just going to open this browser tab to download this Huts4Vets application. That’s today’s victory. And tomorrow I will put my first name in and the next day I will put my last name and just, but building that momentum and getting over that initial inertia of reaching out for help or just even being inquisitive and curious and exploring it, it’s, it’s amazing what I have found in people that do.

Come to things like this, whether or not they’re military veterans, whether they’re just on their own journey for a mental health issue. It’s just, it’s so, so important just taking that first step and realizing that that responsibility is on you, like no one’s going to come to you and just plain speak.

No one’s going to come to you and, and. And get you on a path to mental, to positive mental health where like, that’s just the reality. And if you’re, if you’re waiting on that to happen, then like, you’re just going to keep fucking waiting. But if you’re willing to take that first step, there’s organizations like you and so many others out there that are just chomping at the bit.

To help people because it’s, it’s, it goes back to that camaraderie, it goes back to that teamwork. It just goes, it really is just so interwoven into a lot of our personal lives. And so, yeah, I think you did a great job telling that story. And, and I think it’s, it’s a great way to kind of maybe expand this a little bit when it comes to Huts4Bets future.

What, what do you? If I gave you, if I gave you the opportunity to, to, and I don’t want to ask like the cliche question of like five years from now, but if in a few years time you had the ability to tell me, this is how much Huts for Bets has grown. This is what our impact has been. This is who we operate with.

Like, where do you hope Huts for Bets? goes in the next couple of years, if not decades? Yeah, that’s a great question. So, Hutz for Vets has existed for 10 years. And when it initially started, it was, the intent was to serve men combat veterans

in these last, so I have to give you a little bit of history to talk about the future. The last two years, we really wanted to change that. And in fact, they had ran a couple of pilots. Women’s trips and they went well, but they were being facilitated by a team of men. And so it wasn’t a truly all women experience.

And so that, that has now changed. So we’ve, we’ve grown a women’s team led by one of our alumni and her name is Jen Petronas. And she has taken on the role of like the women’s trip leader. And we’ve built a team and now we have, so now we offer not only trips for men. Now we offer an all women’s trips and we offer co ed trips.

That’s something new that wasn’t offered initially. And so now we offer those three types of trips. And, you know, in the, looking to the future, we’d love to be at a point where we are partnering with, uh, Other like minded organizations, both in, in Colorado and out of Colorado. And we actually have started to do that.

We partner with the Pat Tillman veteran center out of ASU. And we were able to, they’ve essentially taken the Hudson reds model and are now running trips out of ASU for student veterans who are, you know, maybe struggling with their transition into college life. So our, I would like to see the next, you know, in the future, three, five, 10 years would be more partnerships like that.

And also, you know, maybe bringing our program to areas like on the East coast, and it won’t be necessarily probably a hut or the 10th mountain hut, but in a similar setting, and also, you know, partnering with organizations that are already serving disabled veterans. And so we can start kind of opening our program up to serve veterans with disabilities as well.

You know, and we’re talking, you know, more like wheelchair and double amputees and stuff like that. So, yeah, that’s kind of where I would like to see Hutch let’s go in the future. Well, if there’s anything that I can do to help, and that’s what I hope to do with, uh, casting. Uh, I don’t want to say raising awareness, but broadcasting your guy’s mission and helping other people understand that there are so many ways to help veterans like the founder Paul did, and even though you’re not a veteran, doesn’t preclude you from being able to be a part of something that does help veterans.

And I actually do know people that have felt a little timid about volunteering in some capacity with an organization that has a military affiliation, because they feel like they, since they didn’t serve themselves, that they, That wouldn’t belong. And it’s like, no, like, you’re the ones that we need, that they need even most.

And so I really encourage anyone out there listening, veteran or not, if, if this conversation has in any way, Spark something in you to, you know, take that first step. And if anyone out there wants to take that first step, how would you encourage them to engage with you in what Huts for Vets does? Yeah.

Check out our website, hutsforvets. org. Lot of information there on our trips and kind of what we do. Check out our YouTube channel. There’s a lot of video testimonials. To, to really get a, you know, a sense of the impact that we’re having. And you get to see the visuals, you know, see the hut, see the, the, the, the wilderness that we’re bringing these veterans to, and you can also, most importantly, see that impact you can follow us on Instagram, heads for vets.

Donations are always, that’s probably honestly, the, the, the biggest, way to support us is would be make a donation or if you know, any, any wealthy people. Hey, they got money to give. That’s for sure. Oh, they, they have no shame. Not even shame isn’t the right word, but they have no, they don’t feel guilty at all about giving their, their hard earned money to a very deserving organization.

So the way, yeah, I know we are, we were a little pressed for time and we’re going to go over, but thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.

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Listen to interview with Rabbi Menachem on Spotify“ You know, traditional Jewish learning is this relentless questioning. It’s this process of just asking and asking and asking. And, you know, we study so much of the wrong answers on purpose because through the wrong answers, we learn more about the truth.“

What does it mean to be Jewish in this moment?

Rabbi Menachem director of the Jewish Outreach Initiative, a program nestled under the non-profit organization, Aish of the Rockies, helps people answer that question for themselves.

Additional Links

Jewish Outreach Initiative (Website): https://www.joidenver.com/

Jewish Outreach Initiative (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/joidenver

Jewish Outreach Initiative (Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/ JOIdenver/

Rabbi Menachem (LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/ lehrfield

It Matters To Me (Instagram): ⁠https://www.instagram.com/itmatterstomepodcast⁠

It Matters To Me (YouTube): ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@itmatterstomepodcast⁠

TranscriptAdam Casey: Rabbi, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.

Rabbi Menachem: Thanks for having me, Adam. Great to be here.

Adam Casey: We bounced around a little bit. We had a few technical difficulties, but here we are. We’re ready to talk and I can’t wait to get to know you and some of the work that you do. But before I get into any of that, one way I like to start the show is with the same question to give the listener a little bit of an insight into the guest and kind of how that guest may or may not have come into the work that they do. But that question is. If I knew you growing up, what kinds of stories would I tell about you?

Rabbi Menachem: Huh. That’s a hard one. I think if you knew me growing up, you would see a kid that was a perfectionist that wanted to get everything right. And as an adult learning a lot about the growth and the fixed mindset, it’s clear to me now that I definitely had a very strong fixed mindset, a way of looking at the world that assumed that everything was kind of the way it was and was fixed.

Rabbi Menachem: And there wasn’t really much opportunity to change. And part of my process of becoming an adult was really recognizing that I can embrace a growth mindset. And by doing that, it opened up a whole world to me. Just this recognition that we are constantly capable of becoming something different, of changing, of growing. Um, yeah, I think if you saw me as a kid, you would see Someone who gave up very easily, got frustrated easily. I used to often when teachers would hand me a test, I scanned the test. And if I didn’t know all the answers, I would just hand it back in blank. So my entire life, I don’t think I ever got a C on a test.

Rabbi Menachem: I always got, I, I always got almost, almost always, I think A’s or F’s because, and again, as a child, I don’t know that I could have told you any of this, but as an adult, it makes a lot of sense to me now. To get an F, you know, a zero doesn’t say that I’m not smart. It just says I have an attitude problem.

Rabbi Menachem: And everyone already knew I had an attitude problem. Whereas to get a couple wrong says you’re not really as smart as everyone thinks you are. And. You know, going through, you know, going through most of childhood like that is a burden that we don’t have to carry of feeling like we can’t try things that we’re not automatically good at, feel like we can’t, you know, put in the effort and acknowledge and admit that we put in the effort.

Rabbi Menachem: I don’t think I ever. Studied for a test of my entire life because studying again, kind of tells the world and tells myself, I’m not really that smart. If I was really smart, I wouldn’t have to study. Although obviously we know, you know, through understanding what a growth mindset is, that effort is the key to masteries.

Rabbi Menachem: The thing that makes us better at everything that we can possibly try. Whereas the fixed mindset truly believes that if I needed to try, I really wasn’t that fill in the blank as. I thought I was.

Adam Casey: What age do you think you kind of experienced that transition into a growth mindset? And was there any significant event that might’ve been the catalyst for it? Or was it just kind of a slow evolution over time?

Rabbi Menachem: No, for me, it was really night and day. You know, I went to a high school, you know, uh, it was actually, it was a Jewish yeshiva high school, but nonetheless, a high school, um, which has, you know, your typical structure and grades and classes and, you know, What really changed for me was leaving high school and going to yeshiva.

Rabbi Menachem: So I did my undergraduate and my rabbinic school all at yeshiva, which is like a academy of Jewish studies. And what was really different there compared to your traditional high school is there were no grades. There was nobody there to hold you accountable with a letter that assessed your abilities and your progress.

Rabbi Menachem: You know, we’re all going through this process together, me and my, you know, classmates. And we had these oral exams where we had to, you know, have these conversations with our teachers, you know, one on one or two on one. And it became very evident very quickly whether you knew the information or you didn’t.

Rabbi Menachem: And there was no kind of getting around that. And at the beginning, I really started to flounder because I was used to a system that I could control. You know, you have a test, you do well in the test, you get a good grade, you move on. Now the downside of that in the traditional educational environment is, I don’t know about you, but for, I think most people, you cram for the test. You take the test, and then immediately, or almost immediately, the information’s gone. In fact, studies show that your brain holds onto the information until you’re done using it.

Rabbi Menachem: So when you’re finished with a task, while you’re working on a task, your brain is in this hyper awareness mode. But as soon as you’re done with that task, your brain, like, literally lets go of it, and you forget it. And this whole system of studying for tests, taking tests, is not really what education should be.

Rabbi Menachem: Education should be about cultivating curiosity and this love of learning. And unfortunately, at least for me in high school, it really wasn’t. It was about getting good grades. And once I got into a system where the grades didn’t matter, and there really weren’t grades, it was just, are you, Are you learning?

Rabbi Menachem: Are you growing? Are you better now than you were yesterday? And you know, that was a real eye opener for me.

Adam Casey: I think you would have probably done really well. 2000 years ago in the Socratic or Aristotelian teaching methods , but I don’t want to gloss over the fact that you have an advanced degree.

Adam Casey: You went to Loyola University. Um, If I’m correct. And so I think, you’ve definitely proven that you have at least base level intelligence.

Adam Casey: But that is a strong lesson. And I think that in education today, and I don’t want to speak about what is wrong with it, because that would imply that I have the answer.

Adam Casey: But I think it is important that we get to a education system that engages more with critical thought and less regurgitation of simple facts. So,

Rabbi Menachem: You know, you bring up the Socratic method. I mean, that really is what the yeshiva experience is all about. You know, traditional Jewish learning is this relentless questioning. It’s this process of just asking and asking and asking. And, you know, we study so much of the wrong answers on purpose because through the wrong answers, we learn more about the truth.

Rabbi Menachem: You know, just this relentless questioning and that’s, you’re right. I think 2000 years ago, you know, we often think that as we progress as a society, we are more advanced than those who came before us. And certainly there is truth to that. We have definitely progressed and learned collectively a lot that they didn’t know back then.

Rabbi Menachem: But there’s so much wisdom and so much value to what they did back then. And when we think that everyone that came before us is primitive and ancient and archaic. You know, we, we lose out on learning so much about ourselves in the world. Cause if you look around, there’s a lot of problems with our world and our society today, and a lot of problems that they didn’t have one, two, 3000 years ago.

Rabbi Menachem: So, you know, the best thing would be to not throw the baby out with the bath water and figure out what can we learn from those who came before us. What can we, you know, take from that? And then at the same time, use our progress to make our lives in the world better.

Adam Casey: Well, one question that I want to start off with you’re the director of what is known as the Jewish Outreach Initiative, and, I’d love if you could tell me what is JOI and what is its mission,

Rabbi Menachem: So JOI, we actually called JOI. So you were not too far off. Um, I don’t know that we ever referred to it as the Jewish outreach initiative. That’s a, that’s definitely a mouthful. Um, but JOI, our tagline is timeless wisdom for modern lives. And Really, the idea behind JOI and the reason why it’s called JOI is that we believe that there is so much joy in Judaism, and unfortunately, so much of the Jewish people is currently, at least, ignorant of their Jewish heritage, and for most Jews who are somewhat disconnected from Judaism, they actually, actually back up a little bit, you know, Judaism is unique.

Rabbi Menachem: As a religion and that it’s not so much a religion, or it’s not exclusively a religion, I would say it’s as much a ethnicity. It’s as much a way of life. It’s as much, you know, if I had to boil down what is Judaism, I would say Judaism is a family and many Jews, you know, they’re the totality of their Jewish experience.

Rabbi Menachem: was going to synagogue on the two most boring days of the entire year. And if that was the only thing I knew about Judaism, then I would also find it archaic and irrelevant and boring. And what I try to share with the people in our community is that Judaism is this This rich heritage, this rich history that gave the world most of the values that we hold dear today.

Rabbi Menachem: You know, the concept of respect for human life, of justice and equality, peace and harmony, education, social responsibility, the importance of a strong, stable family, you know, so many of these values didn’t just, that we take for granted. And that we assume are and always have been important values to society for most of world history really weren’t.

Rabbi Menachem: And it took Judaism to introduce those to the world. So it’s not just that Judaism introduced the concept of monotheism that most of the major world religions today hold. But even if you are a complete atheist, there is so much that Judaism contributed to the world and it still has so much to teach us and it still has so much value that we can learn from.

Rabbi Menachem: And if we think that Judaism is just. sitting through a service, counting the ceiling tiles, then we’re going to miss so much of the richness that Judaism is. I often say in Judaism, we believe there are 613 what we call mitzvot. They’re often, I think, mistranslated as commandments, but more accurately translated, there are 613 ways of connection.

Rabbi Menachem: Connection between me and my soul, connection between me and others, and connection between me and a higher power. And prayer is one of those 613. And prayer in synagogue is part of that. So the way I like to put it is that JOI is here for the 612 and a half other ways to connect to Judaism. And there are so many ways that you can connect outside of a traditional synagogue setting.

Rabbi Menachem: And what we find is that that really speaks to a lot of modern Jews today. The overwhelming majority of Jews According to, there was a Pew research study done in 2020 that surveyed Jews throughout the country, throughout America. And the majority of Jews do not express their Jewishness in a synagogue and don’t feel like a synagogue is a place that they want to belong to.

Rabbi Menachem: And we see these declining numbers throughout synagogues all over the country. And people look at that and say, you know, and, and. People come from a place of fear and say, you know, Judaism is floundering. It’s falling apart. I look at that very differently.

Rabbi Menachem: When you think of this, when you think of the focal point of Judaism, you know, many American Jews today would think that the focal point is the synagogue, but that’s not true. Not, that’s not true. And that has never been the case for over 3000 years. the central point of Judaism was not the synagogue.

Rabbi Menachem: It was the home. And the fact that Jews think that the synagogue is supposed to be the place that holds their Judaism is really a modern American invention. It’s, it’s not the way it always was. So I see JOI as this innovative way for Jews of all backgrounds to connect to timeless Jewish values. and tradition and wisdom in an engaging way that’s relevant for them wherever they are on their Jewish journey because everyone is in a different place and Judaism can mean something to each one of these people in a way that perhaps they’re not even exploring because they’ve already written it off as this archaic thing that their grandparents used to do.

Adam Casey: I can see that in my own life. I was raised Irish Catholic, so I feel nothing but tremendous guilt at every second of my life. But

Rabbi Menachem: All guilt

Adam Casey: all the guilt all the time, and the over the last, you know, and I feel like a lot of people my age and I’m late thirties, went through a period of disconnect from the church.

Adam Casey: I never didn’t identify as a Christian, but there was definitely Quite a significant period of life where I did not go to church, but over the last nine months or so, I have started going back to church and above all, I’ve started going back to the Lutheran services and I don’t take sacrament.

Adam Casey: I don’t take, or I don’t take communion, but I go more for the opportunity to be in my community to be somewhere very hopefully focused. You know, I couldn’t tell you how many ceiling tiles are in the church just yet. Cause I haven’t gotten that too distracted, too distracted, with other things, but it is religion meeting be where I’m at in life. And so it seems somewhat similar to what you’re trying to offer to people who, who would identify as Jewish. But that also leads me to a question,

Adam Casey: What does it mean to be Jewish in today’s society?

Rabbi Menachem: That’s an excellent question. And In fact it’s, it’s quite a heated question if you’re asking me. I would say a Jew is anyone. And, and again, traditional Judaism based on traditional Jewish sources and the way it was historically up until a few hundred years ago, according to everybody, uh, a Jew is a Jew if they are born Jewish.

Rabbi Menachem: So if their mother was born Jewish or if they go through the process of conversion whereby they choose to be Jewish, and the conversion process is essentially. acknowledging the validity of the Torah and all of its laws, and a willingness and wanting to become Jewish. And the reality is every Jewish person at some point had someone who converted to Judaism, whether it was, you know, in mass at the throughout, you know, through the Sinai Revelation 3, 300 years ago, or, you know, last week, at the end of the day, somebody made a that they wanted to become Jewish.

Rabbi Menachem: And Once you make that choice, that is now part of your spiritual DNA and it’s there forever. And it continues going from generation to generation, you know, ultimately this is not my line. I think I got this from Ken Spiro who’s a Jewish historian. He says that he likes to call the Jewish people to God squad. So essentially. Jews believe that we are God’s PR firm, that we’re here to kind of show ourselves, you know, the concept of being a light unto the nations is this concept of recognizing that we have this ability to show the world what it’s like to live a godly existence. And I think Judaism is unique in that it doesn’t believe that you have to be Jewish to be a good person.

Rabbi Menachem: We don’t believe if you’re not Jewish, you’re damned to hell or, you know, as I think many other religions do believe. In Judaism, one of the reasons why we don’t proselytize and we don’t go out looking for converts is we don’t believe you need to be a convert to be a good person. And. As a result of that, there is, you know, we don’t try to convert people to Judaism because we don’t feel like you need to be saved.

Rabbi Menachem: We don’t feel like you need Judaism necessarily to be a good person. You can be a fine, good, upstanding human being and earn a share in the world to come. And all of that without going through the process of formally becoming Jewish. And if you want to, Everyone’s welcome.

Adam Casey: I have a lot of these conversations around the same topic with friends of what, what, what does it mean to be religious? And why is religion so important? And I always fall back on the argument that It holds us to a higher standard, and if you were to ask someone to just be a better person because that’s just the human thing to do, then someone’s always going to do the right thing because they just have this natural instinct of doing what’s right.

Adam Casey: Do you see it that way? Do you see religion as a whole still necessary?

Rabbi Menachem: That’s a good question. You know, in grad school, studying philosophy, one of the big questions that’s raised is, can you have virtue or vice without religion, without God? And, you know, I feel very strongly, and it sounds like you do as well, that you really can’t because, you know, You have to keep in mind every atrocity that’s ever been committed in world history has been committed by people who believe that they are doing good, right?

Rabbi Menachem: If you would have asked Hitler, Hitler, you don’t have, you didn’t, you wouldn’t have even had to ask him. He said it very clearly. He believed he was liberating the world. He believed the best way to do good in the world was to kill every single Jewish person alive. That was the good that he was doing for the world.

Rabbi Menachem: So as long as you’re the one setting your moral compass. So then there’s nothing stopping you from determining what you believe is good and what you believe is bad. And then what ends up happening through the power of human rationalization is that that which I want, I assume is good. And that which I don’t want, I assume is bad.

Rabbi Menachem: And I can then make the case for, you know, Either one of those things, so it’s hard to imagine any good or bad or morality without having, like you said, a higher power and a something that we can live up to. And I think it also gives us a sense of structure. It gives us a sense of stability. No person can look at rules and say it’s so limiting and you’re so, you know, you’re a slave to those rules, but I see them as very freeing.

Rabbi Menachem: In fact, I can’t imagine not having that structure. I think religion gets a bad rap because of religious extremists who are perverting religion and turning it into something it’s not. In order to justify the things that they want to do. And that’s really the antithesis of religion.

Adam Casey: You describe the work that you do with JOI as helping reshape the Jewish community in Denver, , what in the community in Denver, or maybe on a global scale needs to be reshaped, because it like you’re noticing something that’s lacking .

Rabbi Menachem: I think it’s kind of what we talked about. I think the majority of Jewish people today throughout the country and in Denver included, maybe even more so here, because as you move West generally, again, not with everybody, but the general rule is the more West you move in the United States, the more secular Jews tend to be, um, I would say most Jews today in Denver and in the.

Rabbi Menachem: Denver metro area still assume that Judaism has nothing to offer them in their lives. And that’s a mindset that we’d like to change. We’d like to introduce people to the value, the beauty, the relevance of Judaism in a way that really enhances their life. And part of that is just allowing people to understand that it doesn’t have to be the way it always was.

Rabbi Menachem: You know, in Judaism, we have this coming of age ceremony where a boy celebrates at 13, a girl at 12 called a bat mitzvah and a bar mitzvah. And for so many parents. You know, we, you know, we’re not a synagogue, so we don’t offer a traditional bar mitzvah experience as a synagogue. If people want to do that, we can help them and we can refer them to other synagogues.

Rabbi Menachem: We are actually connected to a synagogue here in Denver. Um, who’s kind of a part of our parent entity called Asia, the Rockies. But ultimately, if you’re doing a bar mitzvah or a bat mitzvah through JOI, it’s not going to be a traditional synagogue, bat mitzvah, and people have a lot of pushback. And one of the things I hear parents say to me all the time is, well, that’s not what I did. I always just pause for a minute or two and I lean over the desk and I asked them, well, how did that work out for you? And they say, Oh, we hated it, but it’s a rite of passage. Like I hated it. And I put up with it. My kids do that too. And I say to them, and the same thing with, with Sunday school, it’s religious school.

Rabbi Menachem: You know, we run a religious school and it’s called sites. And one of the, you know, philosophies of site is that learning needs to be fun. So if you came to our Sunday school on a random Sunday, you would think you were walking into a summer camp. Not to a place of learning. And that’s, I think personally where we’re learning happens when kids are having fun and engaged and enjoying, and it should be loud and should be messy.

Rabbi Menachem: And it should be, you know, sometimes a little bit wild. A lot of people who are not used to that system initially, at least have a lot of pushback. I remember there was one family that enrolled in our school. And after the first week or two. You know, they came from a different school where the kids were miserable, which is why they left.

Rabbi Menachem: And they came to our Sunday school. And the mother said to me, like, my kid’s not learning anything. Like, how come they’re not learning this, this, this, and this, that they’re learning and that they learned in the other school, and I actually forgot all about this story, but at the end, two, three years later, when the kid graduated out of our program, the mother came up to me and said, I don’t know if you remember, but I came over to you at the beginning and I said, you know, how come they’re not learning all these things?

Rabbi Menachem: And I told her, you know, trust the process, just trust the process. Trust that if the kids are loving it, they’re going to walk away learning more than if you’re just shoving information down their throats in ways that they, you know, are not conducive to learning. And she came over to me three years later and said, you know, I really believe my child learned so much more than any of her siblings that were in different programs.

Rabbi Menachem: Because of that process, because of that way of doing things. So I think a big part of what we’re trying to do is reeducate Jews to understand that just because that’s the way it was done a, it’s not the way it always was done, you know, when these parents come to me and say, I want my child to have a traditional bar mitzvah.

Rabbi Menachem: And I’m doing air quotes that you can’t see, right, a quote, unquote, traditional bar mitzvah. What they don’t realize is that their traditional bar mitzvah is really a new way of doing things. It’s maybe one, 200 years old. If you fast forward, you know, if you’re rewinded 500 years, a thousand years, 2000 years, that’s not the way they celebrated a bar mitzvah. The whole way of doing things is really created by synagogues to build this synagogue membership model, which is, I think, if anything, modeled after the American version of church. And if it wasn’t for those synagogue dues, they wouldn’t be, you wouldn’t have that whole system. So to think that that’s the traditional way of doing things when it’s only one or 200 years old, in a religion that’s over 3000 years old, is relatively new.

Rabbi Menachem: Whereas what we’re trying to. Allow people to understand is that the bar mitzvah and the bat mitzvah is supposed to be a time where a Jewish boy or girl Realizes and recognizes that they are now a contributing member of the Jewish people. It’s supposed to be this empowering inspiring moment of self efficacy, where they realize that they are capable, where a 13 year old child can get up in front of a room of 300 adults, 500 adults, and teach them something and share something of value.

Rabbi Menachem: And by doing that, they themselves realize that they are a contributing member of this people. And it’s supposed to inspire them and light them on fire for a lifetime love and obsession with Judaism. And if They see it instead as this Jew jail they have to survive to then get a big party and get some presents and then be done with it for the rest of their life, then we’ve really done something wrong.

Rabbi Menachem: So I try to encourage people to just look at the goals, like, what are you, what are you trying to get out of this process? And what’s the best way to do it? There are so many things and ways that one can connect to Judaism and If you’re just starting out, start with the things that are most relevant. And if sitting in synagogue for eight hours on Yom Kippur and fasting is not one of them, then find something else.

Adam Casey: There’s the rise of mega churches, at least here in the U. S. and non denominational Christian churches. that seems like oxymoronic to say it that way, but there’s definitely a trend in the Christian religion and efforts to recruit more people or, encourage more people to engage with the faith.

Adam Casey: Do you see Judaism overall or specifically JOI’s work as a, as a balancing act in evolving and recruiting more people and getting more people, or do you, Do you see JOI’s work as just being more of a guide for those who already are in the process and are willing to take that first step themselves?

Rabbi Menachem: So I think there’s a distinction there in that Judaism as a whole, like I said, is not about proselytizing. Like we’re not looking for, or we’re not looking to recruit or to find people who are not Jewish. Um, because like you said, they have their own faith systems and. Those are great. We definitely would like to increase the size of our community among the Jewish people, you know, in the area.

Rabbi Menachem: We definitely want Jews to embrace a Judaism that’s meaningful for them. And we believe we have. resources and events and programs that can offer that meaning. Um, so in that sense, yeah, we’re always looking to increase the size of our community, but really for those that are already on some sort of Jewish journey.

Rabbi Menachem: So our goal would really be to enhance that Jewish journey, not to, you know, convince or encourage somebody to start that process. If that’s not their background and not something that they want to do,

Adam Casey: And how do you enhance someone’s journey?

Adam Casey: I find that that’s just a really interesting phrase.

Adam Casey: I hope I’m not repeating the same question, but do you see yourself as more of a guide versus a teacher or do you see yourself as someone who’s there to give instruction?

Rabbi Menachem: I think both, you know, as an organization, we offer a lot of social programming, you know, our, our focus really is young families. So, because of that, most of our family programming is, you know, more geared towards families and children. And a lot of it is social, whether it’s Shabbat dinners or programs around the holidays or our Hebrew school.

Rabbi Menachem: But we also offer classes and ways to, you know, educate people and to share Jewish lessons and values in a way that helps them incorporate those into their lives. So I would say I see my role as director of JOI as being both guide. And a lot of our content since COVID has moved online as well, you know, through podcasts, through our Instagram channel, through our rather through our YouTube channel and our Instagram accounts.

Rabbi Menachem: And. I see us as being a resource, so if somebody wants that resource, we hopefully are the address for them to find it, um, but without kind of being too strong or inserting ourselves, you know, I believe if somebody is fulfilled Jewishly, and you have a Jewish person who finds fulfillment in what they’re doing, then keep on doing what you’re doing, you know, you do you, but if you’re not, And I would implore anyone, like if, if you’re forcing your child to go to Hebrew school and they don’t want to go, you’re doing more damage than not going at all.

Rabbi Menachem: And people think that they have to instill these Jewish values. But if you’re doing it in a way that’s not engaging, that’s not fun, that’s not relevant, it’s going to do more damage. I deal with the adults 40 years later that had that kind of upbringing.

Adam Casey: I’m in that camp myself. My parents forced me to go to church and I don’t want to say I rebelled against it, um, and stopped going because of that. But I know that, you know, being forced. To, to go do things as a young adult probably gave me some sense of, uh, of discontent with what I was being forced to do overall, but it’s, um, yeah, it’s, it’s hard.

Adam Casey: It’s hard to, to probably want to engage a 13 year old with. Deep philosophical questions when they’re, you know, more interested in some things that we can all relate to from being 13 years old. So I feel like your work is doubly cut out for you to try to try.

Rabbi Menachem: you’d be surprised, you’d be surprised at how much a 13 year old kid would talk about deep philosophical things. If you talk to them like a person, you don’t talk down to them and you just engage them and come from a place of curiosity. I’ve been so surprised over the years at, you know, how open even young kids are to really having these deep conversations that many adults have never even had or thought about, you know, just opening the floor for them to talk and to be seen and to be heard.

Adam Casey: They are, they are humans too. They, um, I think maybe I forget that because I don’t have kids. And so, but that is, uh, that’s really important to, to, I guess, remember when it comes to someone who maybe is a little bit older and wants to learn more about Judaism. And this is, I feel embarrassed to even ask this question, but is it appropriate for someone who’s not of a Jewish faith just to come sit in on the service or you’ll come to synagogue and, you know, try and just kind of sample it for lack of a better term?

Rabbi Menachem: I think so. Everyone’s always welcome. You know, we always have, I shouldn’t say always, but often we’ll have people who are just curious, or we have college students that are going through a, you know, comparative religion class that ask if they could just sit in on synagogue services. And I think most synagogues would be very open and receptive to really anybody and everyone, you know, who wants to earnestly experience it for what it is.

Rabbi Menachem: Absolutely.

Adam Casey: You might see me in the back of, uh, in the back of the room one day because that is, it is something I’m, I’m really, you know, in this phase of life as I’m trying to learn, rediscover what it means to be religious, just from my own background. But I also don’t want to close the door on any opportunity to maybe find a new path.

Adam Casey: You know, and, uh, I don’t want to make it seem like I’m about to convert to Judaism on a whim, but it is something that I, you know, from the more that I learned about it and the teaching of just religion overall, I know I at least feel a void in my life that I think And hope religion at some point can, can fulfill.

Adam Casey: And if that does require me to, to, you know, it seems like kind of like you have that growth mindset to, to question things that I thought were dogmatic about my own life, um, that’s something I’m, I’m willing and hopefully brave enough to do at this point. So, um, yeah, you may, may just see my, you might just see my face lurking in the back of a service one day.

Adam Casey: Um,

Rabbi Menachem: Adam, you’re always, always welcome. I look forward to greeting you there and, and just, you should know for your own journey, like. Ultimately, religion is a personal relationship between you and your creator and that’s it. And all the other trappings are there and all the other, the structure and the rules and everything else is there as a way of enhancing that and helping you build that and helping you hold onto that.

Rabbi Menachem: And if for right now on your journey, it’s not working for you, then find the things that do. Find the things that help you be the best version of yourself. And allow you to connect to a higher power to again, become the best version of yourself. I mean, that’s ultimately what’s, what it’s about.

Adam Casey: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s, it could be hard sometimes to, to see religion as just a personal relationship between the individual. And I guess I’ll speak in first term, see the relationship between myself and God or, um, whatever religion I’m in. or whatever denomination I’m kind of, uh, I identify with. It can be hard because you do have to go in some way, you know, again, because of the way I was brought up, I, you know, you’re, you think that only true faith can, can happen inside of the four walls of a church and under, you know, the gaze of a, of a pastor of some kind.

Adam Casey: And so I, it’s, um, it

Rabbi Menachem: Yeah. So I would encourage you to challenge that. I would encourage you to, again, I don’t, I can’t speak for other religions. I don’t have, I don’t have a background or really even a baseline knowledge of other religions, but I can speak for Judaism and Judaism. You don’t need a rap, you know, as a rabbi, I’m, you know, got to be careful when I say this, but you don’t need a rabbi for really anything.

Rabbi Menachem: You look at, you know, Jewish. Life cycle events and practices and, you know, to have a service or to get married or to have a bar mitzvah, like you don’t need a rabbi, I hear people use that term, like the rabbi bar mitzvah to me, he didn’t write, you became a bar mitzvah. That was the automatic process that happened when you turned 13 years old. You are now a member of the Jewish people and you are an adult and you are starting to be able to make good choices and you’re responsible for those choices. That was an automatic process that happened, whether or not there was a rabbi involved. Like the rabbi is really there just as a guide, as a mentor, as a teacher.

Rabbi Menachem: And all the other things that you think that you need the clergy member to do, you really don’t. It really is, again, I can’t speak for other religions, but at least for Judaism, it is a personal relationship. That’s ultimately what it is. It’s a personal relationship with God, and either you have that relationship, or you’re working towards that relationship, or you don’t have that relationship.

Rabbi Menachem: But ultimately, all the other trappings and things that are around it either service that relationship or they don’t. And if they don’t, then either find another one that does, or start from scratch with the core of what it is, which is that relationship. And then see what comes from it.

Adam Casey: I feel like that’s a really positive and encouraging kind of message to anyone out there. And I don’t want to turn this episode into just basically a one on one about my own faith and yourself as a, as a therapy session of some kind. So, but I hope anyone out there that’s listening can take that to heart if they’re kind of going through the same things.

Adam Casey: Um, well, so. You know, we’ve, we’ve got a few minutes left and I want to be conscious of your time. So I want to be, uh, I’d love to kind of just end the, the, end this with giving you the space and the room to, you know, if there’s anything that you want the listener to know about Judaism or JOI or yourself and, you know, it can be any misconceptions or myths that you might have.

Adam Casey: You know, commonly encounter and you would like to dispel or if there’s just a, a JOI event coming up that you’d love to promote, I’d want to make sure you have the opportunity to do that. But above all, if someone is out there that’s listening, that does find this conversation interesting enough to want to take that first step and wants to engage with you and JOI, how would you encourage them to, to do that, to get in touch with you or to engage with the work that you do?

Rabbi Menachem: I would say the best way to engage with our work is probably on Instagram at JOI Denver. And, um, you can put my email in the show notes if anybody wants to reach out directly, that’s also fine. Uh, the only thing I would say is, you know, especially in this post October 7th world, where a lot of Jews are, I think for the first time coming out of the woodwork and feeling a deeper sense of, I don’t want to say a connection to Judaism, but a deeper sense of identity, you know, we’re experiencing.

Rabbi Menachem: Unprecedented levels of antisemitism that I think we’ve never seen in America where Jews throughout the country are feeling threatened and feeling the sense of fear. And what it’s done in kind of a remarkable way is it’s really brought the Jewish people together, but I think for a lot of people that haven’t had a Jewish connection or Jewish community, and for the first time, they’re looking for that and they don’t know where to start.

Rabbi Menachem: I would encourage them to, you know, reach out to me and see if we can help them find that Jewish community, find that. Place in that space where they can explore what Judaism can mean to them. Um, so yeah, if they want to find me, they can look on Instagram and then we also have a bunch of podcasts. So I have a podcast called zero percents and the, uh, the basic concept of the podcast is that Jews make up 0.

Rabbi Menachem: 2 percent of the world, which essentially, if you round to the closest number is zero. So how does a people that makes up practically zero percent of world population have such a large impact? And the podcast explores the outsized impact of the Jewish people. Um, then I have another one called to your rabbi, where we explore, you know, questions that users sent in to us and we answer those questions.

Rabbi Menachem: And then this fall, we’re actually launching three new podcasts. We’re launching a podcast called reconnect. That’s with me and my wife that looks at relationships and ways to enhance all different types of relationships. And I have another podcast called Kids Say the Deepest Things, where I take funny things my kids say and try to mine those comedic gems for some lessons that we can learn.

Rabbi Menachem: And then the last one is called Yada Yada Yiddish. I don’t know if you’re a Seinfeld fan, but it’s going through select Seinfeld episodes and trying to learn Jewish lessons from them. So hopefully this fall, we’ll have a lot of material out there that people can engage with, and hopefully we’ll, you know, be able to offer things that people can learn from.

Adam Casey: Well, I can guarantee you that you will have at least one subscriber to yada yada Yiddish I Seinfeld is on par with the office for me. And that is I love everything about that. But the one thing I want to make sure you know, there’s only 24 hours in a day. For at least how I, where I sit, there’s only 24 hours a day.

Adam Casey: So that is, that is incredible that you’re able to pull all the, all this off, but I will everything, the Instagram, the email, all those, all the show, you know, if there’s links to those shows and definitely to JOI’s website, I will encourage anyone to, uh, to visit for themselves, but I will make sure that those things are in the show notes to make that as easily accessible as possible.

Adam Casey: But wow, that’s a, I’m already, that’s, uh, oh, that’s the, that’s such a great idea. Um, well, Rabbi, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. You know, it’s, this is, this is the part of the show where I almost wish that this was a Joe Rogan style three hour podcast. And I wish I could talk to you about.

Adam Casey: So, so many more things and, um, obviously what happened on October 7th is absolutely horrible, but it’s encouraging to hear you say that there’s, uh, there’s something coming out of it that’s, it, he’s enriching or bringing together people of Jewish faith. Um, but yeah, I don’t want to. I don’t want to gloss over the fact that that what happened on October 7th was absolutely terrible.

Adam Casey: So, um, well, thank you so much

Rabbi Menachem: Thank you for having me, Adam. This has really, really been a fun conversation.

Adam Casey: Awesome.

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“ And they would say, Jen, I can find food if I’m hungry. There are places I can go for food. I can find a shelter bed if I need it, but I haven’t had a shower in six months or eight months or nine months, and so the idea of having mobile trailers meant that we could go directly to people.”

Showers For All is a mobile laundry and shower trailer, that serves unsheltered communities and helps cultivate community-building partnerships throughout Denver and the United States. With two full-service bathrooms and multiple washers & dryers, they’re able to deliver a critical, and often forgotten, service to those struggling with homelessness and poverty.

As a kid who grew up in a military family, Jenn grew up constantly making new friends. Always be kind and inclusive towards others, she felt the deepest of sympathies for everyone she met which makes her current role with Showers For All not that surprising.

We talk about the significant impact providing showers and laundry service has on the people they serve and how that need is, unfortunately, being felt all across the country these days.

Additional Links

Showers For All (Website): https://showersforall.org/

Showers For All (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/showersforall/

Showers For All (Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/showersforall/

It Matters To Me (Instagram): ⁠https://www.instagram.com/itmatterstomepodcast⁠

It Matters To Me (YouTube): ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@itmatterstomepodcast⁠

TranscriptAdam Casey: Jen, welcome to the show. It’s an honor to have you. How are you doing today?

Jenn Kloeppel: I’m good. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here with you.

Adam Casey: I’m really excited to have you on because you’re a local, here in Colorado and your organization Sours for All serves the community of Colorado and Denver, I should say. And I’m really looking forward to helping spread the message and hopefully getting some people interested into it. before I do that, though, one way I like to start the episode is ask each guest the same question.

Adam Casey: And it’s supposed to set the stage of just lightheartedness, but also give a little bit of a backstory to the person behind the organization. And that question is, if I knew you growing up, what kinds would I tell about you?

Jenn Kloeppel: that’s such a great question. I, um, I was the kid that, that felt everything and cared about everything, right? So the, the ant that was getting smashed on the playgrounds or the worm that needed to get off the sidewalk or the person who was having a really bad day. Uh, the stories that I hear about myself are that I was always.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, feeling and always caring and the other piece of that is that I always wanted to do the right thing. So I wasn’t a rule breaker. Um, I, I really just kind of fell in line to the things that I thought that I was supposed to do and it wasn’t until, um, Probably college when I realized that, that I didn’t, I was following a path that I was told to do and not, not one that felt necessarily right to me other than, um, my, my deeply caring, deeply feeling, which I had also just kind of pushed my bigger feelings, my sad feelings, my anger feelings down.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so, um, I was the kind kid, the inclusive kid. I grew up in the military, so we’ve moved so much and. In that I was always trying to make new friends. And so, um, that’s. Those are the stories that you’re, you’ll hear. I think that, I mean, everyone’s, my brother is younger than me and he’ll tell you that I’m the funniest person in his life.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, which is really funny for me to hear. So I think that I probably grew up really funny too, but I don’t have any memory of being funny. I just have a memory of feeling sad when people were excluded and constantly trying to make everyone feel like they had a place.

Adam Casey: That’s think that backstory is the best transition into the work that you’re currently doing, because I can say that, you know, running a nonprofit requires a certain level of empathy and sympathy towards others. And I think having that background from such a young age is why you’re here today and why you run Showers For All.

Adam Casey: I am curious though, what was the path that you were on in college and what was the pivot like for that?

Jenn Kloeppel: so, that’s a great question. So let me, let me back up a little bit. So in middle school, I don’t remember what happens, but something triggered this idea in me that I needed to build a place where, um, anyone could come, right? I had this clear idea that I was going to run a nonprofit, that I was going to adopt a baby.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, and both of those things happen. But in that everybody in my orbit was like, you need to have a job. You need to go to college. What is your job going to be? And I didn’t know. How to get to any of those things. Right. So I said, well, I’m just going to run. This place where kids can come and they have a family and we build out this community around them that feels really good and safe and they get fed.

Jenn Kloeppel: And then I built this community garden on paper where, where adults could come. Everyone grows in this community garden. They live around there. It was like this beautiful village of people, right? And so in my, in my journals, you can see those things, but externally, I would say I’m going to be a teacher. I wanted to be a teacher since I was five and I love teaching, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: I, I know that I love teaching, but I was in college and I’m going through these teaching classes. And I was student teaching in, um, Watts in Los Angeles because I went to college in LA. And I remember leaving devastated because this little boy that I was working with. Had a bruise on his face from being hit and he, um, and he was hungry.

Jenn Kloeppel: And then I went to a place in Santa Monica and they were doing, um, this teacher that I was working with was bringing breakfast for kids and my heart was just. Broken, right? This these are school should be the safe place and I the structure of school was too confining for me, which now I recognize, uh, was like a lot of ADHD, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: It was my ADHD tendencies that I didn’t know as ADHD then that being stuck in this building with a structure that people had put in place for teaching kids was not the way that my brain was wired to work. Um, and so I remember graduating with my teaching degree and. It was June and I said, I just don’t think that I should be in a classroom.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, and it was this kind of underlying feeling the whole time in my senior year. I started going down to Skid Row and I was volunteering at, The rescue mission down there. And I was serving meals and I was going out and talking to people and they kept saying, um, I just need.

Jenn Kloeppel: A shower so I can do this next thing, or I just need this so I can do this next thing. And so this just sat with me for a long time and I went and worked in churches, um, doing kids and youth ministry because that felt like a bridge from teaching, but it still wasn’t quite right. Um, and so it was just a lot of, Um, wrestling with myself, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: Wrestling with what, because I didn’t know that you could start your own nonprofit. I didn’t know that you could, um, create a job that, that you want to do, that you’re passionate about, that you’re excited about. My dad was so great growing up because he’d say, if you love what you do, then you’re going to love going to work every day.

Jenn Kloeppel: And I thought, well, I love kids. So teaching is it. Um, and it wasn’t until I was exposed to a classroom and, and the structure of teaching and I. I really do love teaching and It’s just not where I can do my best work. And so the transition through college kind of wrestling with all the ideas that I’ve had and the things that I felt.

Jenn Kloeppel: And then I had my daughter, uh, right after I graduated. And so then I was like, I just need, I just have to work, right? I just need a job so I can keep this child alive and get her to do all the things that she wants to do. And, um, And then over time, I started realizing that I probably did have, um, an option to create something that I was really proud of and, and my brain works so creatively and I, I like looking at problems differently and in different ways than most people, um, My partner at showers is like a, is a numbers person.

Jenn Kloeppel: He can tell you, uh, how much water we’re using down to the very last ounce. He is so structured and strategic. And I always think, well, the sky’s the limit, right? How can we do all of these things and build relationships and build a community around what we’re doing? And so, um, When I met him, he made me realize all of these things that have been sitting on my heart, um, and that I’ve been struggling with were a possibility.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so I don’t know if that answers your question very directly. It was this very long journey to get to where I was and a lot of questioning myself and then waking up one day and I, I remember texting my family saying, I’m starting this nonprofit. I don’t know how I’m going to do it, but we’re going to launch this Indiegogo campaign to do it.

Jenn Kloeppel: And I’m pretty sure they thought I was insane because the questions were, how are you going to make money? How are you going to fundraise? How are you going? All of, all of the really responsible things. But I think I’d gotten to a point where I thought if I don’t throw out all of the, what ifs that I’ve been wrestling with my whole life and through college, when I thought that I had to do.

Jenn Kloeppel: Have just a very clear cut job. Um, and so I, I just, I had to get to a place where I did it. Um, and it’s funny now because my dad, when I was going to college said, Jen, nobody knows what they want to do when they’re five years old. I don’t. And he sent me on internships to like marketing radio stations and event planners and all of these things to shadow.

Jenn Kloeppel: And he kept saying, I just, nobody knows what they want to do when they’re five, Jennifer really think about it. And I was like, but you. You want us to, you want me to go to college and have this job. And that’s the only thing I know, I didn’t know that you could go to college for nonprofit management or, uh, entrepreneurship or any creative things.

Jenn Kloeppel: Right. And so it took of life experience and then the willingness to kind of just throw everything that I thought I knew out the window. Um, and start over and feel, um, confident in that and willing to, and, and failures. I don’t look at failure as a bad thing, right? I look at failure as what did I learn?

Jenn Kloeppel: What have I gained? Where did, where did I make the mistakes? Right? So the, the freedom and the willingness that I gave myself to fail, um, and that felt freeing Scary, um, but I was ready to do that. I needed to start over. Um, so that, yeah, that’s, that’s why I landed here. I think and I have a, I had a pretty bad brain injury in 2018 and I, and I still have it, but I think that kind of triggered the spiral of you have to just do the thing that’s going to feel good.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, and the thing that you’re passionate about and the thing that you feel like it’s going to change the way that other people are moving through the world too, right? Yeah.

Adam Casey: So it was almost, Cortez burned the ships. The only way forward is forward kind of.

Jenn Kloeppel: Yes.

Adam Casey: Kind of sentiment, which I can respect. And I know that Sometimes you just got to throw yourself completely at something. And if it crashes and burns, I think it’s like the Charles Bukowski quote of I’d rather be ashes than dust.

Adam Casey: let me go down in just like this. Burning, Phoenix of fire of, at least attempting to do something. So, all I could say is at five years old, I think I wanted to be a fire truck. my, dreams clearly, I don’t know. There’s still hope

Jenn Kloeppel: There’s still hope. We can build you, we can build you some gear. It would be like transformer, you know?

Adam Casey: that’s now you’re speaking my nerdy language.

Adam Casey: So, we’ve alluded to it. We’ve talked around it, but you run an organization called Showers For All. What is the mission of Showers For All and how would you describe the work that you guys do?

Jenn Kloeppel: Yeah, so our mission is to empower the journey away from homelessness by restoring dignity, hygiene and hope. And so, The way that we do that is by bringing showers and laundry directly to people, um, in the Metro Denver area. And I, we, we talked a lot about the value of having mobile services, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: Because people, when we were talking to people that we were serving, we were volunteering at shelters, we were providing food, we were bringing lunches down and we were having conversations with people that would be, that are our guests, right. And our friends. And they would say. Jen, I can find food if I’m hungry.

Jenn Kloeppel: There are places I can go for food. I can find a shelter bed if I need it, um, most of the time, but I haven’t had a shower in six months or eight months or nine months. And the, And so we started thinking about that, and we looked at a map of where options were to have a shower or do laundry, and there just aren’t any.

Jenn Kloeppel: Laundry is expensive at a laundromat. Shower services are just not really accessible. There aren’t public bathrooms that people can use. And so, The idea of having a, having mobile trailers meant that we could go directly to people. We’re not asking them to travel across the city after they had breakfast one day and then travel across to find us to take a shower and then go to where a caseworker is or a job is or, you know, Um, their community is we are going directly to where people are.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so our trailers do showers and laundry, their combination trailers. And, uh, the reason for doing both is, um, because, because having one of those would be easier, just doing showers would be so easy, right. Um, or just doing laundry, but we didn’t want people to have to put dirty clothes on clean bodies.

Jenn Kloeppel: We wanted people to be able to put clean clothes on clean bodies so that the, they are getting. All any hygiene that they need there. They are not going to have to put on clothes that are going to then give them a rash or make them dirty again, or maybe don’t smell the greatest or they’re not putting clean clothes on bodies that haven’t haven’t been able to be clean.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so. We were committed to doing both of those. Um, and, and so that’s what we do. And in, in that our priority is the relationships. I say, we, we just hired the, one of the most incredible people to, um, run our trailers on the grounds. And he, um, we said to him, our relationships are so important. We want people to trust that when they come to us, they’re going to be cared for.

Jenn Kloeppel: They’re going to be seen. We’re going to know their names. We’re not just giving them a number or scanning a barcode. We’re learning We are spending time in community with them and learning from them. And then they get showers and laundry. So showers and laundry are really second. Our relationships are first.

Jenn Kloeppel: Uh, and that’s something that we’ve been doing for years. Um, and that was, um, It was, it was a really big conversation for us at the beginning. And so our, our mission is to help people find dignity while, um, they, they are living, uh, outside. And, um, we do that through the shower and laundry service and through the relationships that we have.

Adam Casey: What was the impetus for this? Was there a single moment where you came across someone who said, I missed out on that job opportunity because I didn’t shower that day, or I had dirty clothes, or is this something where you wanted to build a community and just the idea of having a shower, which brings people together around something like that, came together.

Jenn Kloeppel: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think there were a lot of little moments, um, for my partner. He would say he was in Australia and saw this laundry truck and just thought it was awesome. They’re called orange sky and, um, and he’s because he’s like a strategic thinker. He was just like, this is so easy. We should do it.

Jenn Kloeppel: And for me, it was sitting with people who would say, um, I, I can’t walk into a place and not be stared at and feel uncomfortable because of how I look or how I smell. And then there were kids that were coming into schools that would, would miss hundreds of days of school because their parents didn’t want them to go because they were unclean because they’d been sleeping outside and they didn’t want somebody to call, um, CPS on them.

Jenn Kloeppel: Right. And so it was a lot of moments like that for me that, that said that hygiene needs to be a priority. And then I think when I was Um, at Colorado Coalition, like 10 years ago, Colorado Coalition for the Homeless, and I was touring their health clinic and. There was a man sitting outside and I, I said hi to him.

Jenn Kloeppel: And, um, his name is Brad and we just started chatting and I said, are you, are you heading in there? And he said, I can’t. And I said, well, what do you mean? It looks like you need, he had this huge gash on his leg. So it looks like you need some care. And he said, I, I don’t want to go in there because I’m so dirty and I can’t deal with being looked at, um, in a certain way because I’m too dirty and I, now, now this wound is dirty, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: And that just sat so heavily on my heart and in my head. And so I think so many moments like that where people were avoiding medical care or they were avoiding education or they were avoiding going into public places to use the bathroom or to order. a drink or something because they didn’t want to feel ashamed of their circumstances or how they looked or felt, right?

Adam Casey: That’s really surprising, I think. I think,

Adam Casey: it’s the ancillary effects of not having a shower for someone who owns a home it’s more seen as the social acceptance by others, maybe I come across as unclean and dirty, but that’s the extent of it.

Adam Casey: It’s not

Adam Casey: any major life implications, but what I’m kind of now thinking about is just the effects, not having a place to clean your clothes and shower not only has on the individual, but just has on the interactions that that person has with other people.

Adam Casey: And the story of someone who had a cut on the leg who then couldn’t go to the hospital or didn’t feel like they should go to the hospital or get seen then let’s something like that just become so much more of a problem and is even more of a challenge to deal with. And it’s simply could have been almost solved just by having places to clean themselves.

Adam Casey: And so that’s not something I would really think about.

Jenn Kloeppel: Yeah. It’s, and if I, can I share a story with you really quick to make a connection with this?

Adam Casey: You’re, you’re more than welcome to share as many stories as you would like.

Jenn Kloeppel: So thank you. I think that what you’re saying is so powerful because we don’t think about not showering every day, right? We, we get up, we work out, we take a shower, we clean our clothes. We’re never worried about, um, leaving when we’re housed. And, and there, there were two instances that early on that really have stuck with me for a long time.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so we have this, we had a college age student that was showering with us, um, during COVID. And he said, I, COVID is really good for me because he couldn’t afford the dorm. So he was just paying for classes, right? So he could finish. And so he’d come to us. He said, because when I walk into a college class before COVID, people could tell that I was homeless by my hands.

Jenn Kloeppel: They knew that I was homeless because my hands were dirty. Cause I can’t get them clean. There’s no amount of cleaning when you’re sleeping outside, eating outside and everything. And so COVID has protected me from that because I’m on zoom now for classes. And I just thought about how hard that is. hard that is because you’re this person is trying to go to school and is it the barrier for him to go to school is that everyone’s going to know his circumstances, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: And not understand it. And then the other one is, um, this man, Neil, who we had spent a time with when we were in civic center park, actually during the pandemic. The pandemic lockdowns and he came to us with this port in his chest and you could tell that it was infected and he started talking to us and he said, can I go, can I take my shower and do my laundry at the end of the day?

Jenn Kloeppel: Because it’s going to take me a little bit longer. And we said, sure. We got to talking with him and it turns out he had terminal pancreatic cancer. And so he got in the shower at the end of the day and we could hear him groaning and, um, from the inside and he popped his head out and said, I just need a little bit longer.

Jenn Kloeppel: Is it okay? And we don’t, we don’t time limit people. Everyone’s just kind of manages their time knowing people are behind them. And we said, absolutely take all the time you need. And. Um, he came out with this big smile on my face and he said, I can’t wait to go in for my treatment tomorrow because for the first time they’re not going to have to clean my wound, my port entry place before I get treatment because I was able to do it today.

Jenn Kloeppel: And he said, I feel so much shame and sadness every time I go in and they have to treat an infection for me. Around this entry place before they can treat my cancer, um, because I don’t have anywhere to keep it clean and, and everyone’s so frustrated, I can tell that they’re frustrated and they’re trying to be kind, but I can’t, how am I supposed to do this?

Jenn Kloeppel: And he said, I will be at this trailer every single day. Until I’m gone. And, um, he did. Neil spent six weeks with us, eight weeks with us. And he would come and shower. We do his laundry and talk to him. He was fixing bike wheels. He fixed my daughter’s bike actually one day, um, because it was the back of my car and he asked if I need to help with it.

Jenn Kloeppel: And he would do art with people and tell stories about his life. And then, um, when they were ready to move him into a hospice facility, um, he came to us and he said, I told them I don’t want to because I want to be around people Who care about me, um, before I go. And so we spent one last day with him and then the people that he had become friends with on the street sat with him until, until the end.

Jenn Kloeppel: And, um, it was such a gift that Neil gave us selfishly to, to share his story with us and be so honest about the complications for his treatment and for, um, the lack of hygiene access. And I think that moment, um, yeah. Was such an incredible reminder of why, why this matters, right? Of course we want people in housing.

Jenn Kloeppel: Of course we want people fed, of course, all the things we jobs, but, but until we can care for basic human needs, um, like meals, I don’t, I don’t know how they can move through a world feeling good and healthy, and I think that having that shower and that laundry shifted his willingness to get treatment and his ability to get treatment because we removed the barrier.

Jenn Kloeppel: For feeling clean and good enough. And I think a level of shame too.

Adam Casey: What a powerful story. I’m sure that there are those days where it’s hard and you kind of have that suspicion or question of, is this the right thing I’m doing? Is this where I’m best focusing my energy and a story like that kind of brings you back to the center and helps you stay focused on the work that you guys are doing.

Adam Casey: So that’s, that’s amazing.

Jenn Kloeppel: Thank you. It was, he’s so special. He’s so special.

Adam Casey: well, I was going to ask about unique stories about, I don’t know anything is going to be able to top that, but I am curious. I think looking on the Showers For All website and doing a little bit of research, one story that stuck out to me and I hope I pronounce his name correctly is Osage.

Jenn Kloeppel: Yes. Osage.

Adam Casey: I wanted to ask about Osage and see what his story was. And if you wouldn’t mind just kind of giving us the second act of this independent stories that Showers For All is having

Jenn Kloeppel: Yeah. So Osage is, um, he is one of those people that he walks into a space And lights up, lights it up, right? He is, um, he radiates joy. He radiates kindness. He is, when he is, um, when he loves you, he loves you so incredibly well. And he is a protector and, um, a veteran. And he, um, was one of our very first showers at the shower trailer.

Jenn Kloeppel: And, um, Came out just so fired up. So he has, he has been such a bright light for us. He is, he disappeared for a little bit, um, because he had gone to a different town and came back and he said, Jen, I came here to find you first. And I, and, um, he, so he is. a war veteran. He has, um, military benefits. I, I can’t, don’t know why I can’t think of the word right now.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, he was honorably discharged from the military so he can go to a VA hospital for treatments that he needs. So he has some plates in his body. He had a brain injury and so he has some, um, cognitive stuff going on. Um, and he, um, Spends the little money that he gets every month on his medication, and he said to me, Jen, I, I stopped medication to pay for a house, and I didn’t feel like, or to pay for housing, and I didn’t feel like myself.

Jenn Kloeppel: I know that I need this medication, and so, that’s the choice I’m making, is to get the meds that I need, and He, he, he really can’t work right now. And so he is, everyone knows him on the streets of Denver. And this is the commitment that he’s made to his life is to make sure that he is a healthy person to be around and his, he is taking care of his body.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, and so that’s heartbreaking to think about the ways that we’re letting people who, um, have, have given so much of themselves down. And so his, his VA benefits, he’ll go check in with them. He’ll get the support that he needs. He, we named our first trailer after him. Um, and he, he brings people to us regularly.

Jenn Kloeppel: He, um, if somebody, something happens, he’ll say he is the first person people call if they need help. And it’s really beautiful he was in a sanctioned tent, um, in Denver for a while. And then. He, he left because he was protecting somebody and, um, it got physical and so they both got removed from the space, which was such a bummer.

Jenn Kloeppel: But he said, I, I am accountable for my actions and this is how I responded and I shouldn’t have. And so he’s such, such, such a great example for all of us on, um, Being accountable and also the way that we care for, for people and for the space that we’re in.

Jenn Kloeppel: He had me talk to his mom one time and she lives in Kansas. And she said, Jen, he is, he’s always talking about all his friends. And sometimes we’re not sure if, um, how many of these friends he has, but then he puts us on the phone with you you tell us how much he’s loved. And it’s just so reassuring. Thank you. For us that, that he’s okay. And so he, he just loves people so well.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, and he will show up to places and, and jump in and help where he can. And so it’s, he is just an incredible force and the military was so lucky to have him and we are so lucky that we have him

Adam Casey: sounds like my kind of dude.

Jenn Kloeppel: Yeah, he’s a good guy. He’s so good.

Adam Casey: I think a good setup would it be what is Showers For All physically? Is there a permanent structure in place or is it still a trailer?

Adam Casey: Describe what the scene of a shower and the laundry facility is for someone who walks up to wherever you’re located.

Jenn Kloeppel: Yeah. So we are still mobile and here’s um, It is it would be easier to have a permanent place We know a permanent building right for power for water for all of those things Um, but we when we set out to build our trailer We decided that we were going to build it ourselves because you can buy Stock trailers, like for festivals and there’ll be fine.

Jenn Kloeppel: They’re really expensive. We can build our trailers significantly cheaper, like 80, 000 cheaper. Um, and so, and we can build them the way that we want. We knew we wanted toilets in them because people deserve a place to go to the bathroom that’s private. We knew that we needed outlets. We needed full showers, ADA, um.

Jenn Kloeppel: Compliant showers, we knew that we wanted the washers and dryers in there. Um, and that it was going to be warm in the winter. So we have heating. And so we, we built them ourselves. So each trailer has two bathrooms that are full size and we wanted it to feel like home. We wanted it to be private. We wanted it to be special. We clean after every single guest. So everyone’s going in to a clean, dry shower. Not like the pools where you walk into a pool bathroom and it’s like wet and there’s hair everywhere.

Jenn Kloeppel: We did not want that. We wanted this to make people feel like they were important and they mattered. Um, so, we tow it with a, with a truck and our truck is, we have no truck right now because it’s dead. So we’re looking for a truck.

Jenn Kloeppel: That’s what we got is this big empty metal trailer and then we built walls into it and all of the plumbing and we put in nice flooring. And Waterpik gave a donated shower heads to us and, you know, Uh, the water heater is instant hot water heater.

Jenn Kloeppel: And the other thing we hear a lot is this is the first warm shower I’ve had in a long time. Um, so when people come to us, they check in, we, we greet them. We greet them by name. We get their laundry into a laundry bag and we do everyone’s laundry from start to finish washer dryer, and then we fold it before we return it.

Jenn Kloeppel: And the question people ask all the time is why are we folding it? Um, if it’s going to get put in a backpack or whatever. And I said, well, because it, it feels special. It feels good for somebody. If somebody wanted to fold my clothes all the time, I would be so happy, right? Just to have one less thing to worry about and to make it feel like my clothes mattered enough for you to fold them.

Jenn Kloeppel: Um, and I love when we had, uh, a man come to us and we handed him his folded clothes and he started crying. He said, nobody’s folded my clothes since my mom did 40 years ago. Thank you so much. And so it does matter that, That touch matters. Um, and then we, we get people in the shower, um, and we don’t give them a time limit.

Jenn Kloeppel: And most of the time, our averages are 15 to 20 minutes because they want everyone behind them. That’s waiting for a shower to be able to shower. Right. And so we have. 12 hour days, eight hour days, however, wherever we are based on location and they want everyone to be able to get into that shower. And so once they get in the shower, everything’s inside.

Jenn Kloeppel: We have the shampoo, conditioner, soap. They get a fresh kit, which is a hygiene kit with toothpaste, toothbrush, all any sunscreen, hand sanitizer, anything you might need in that and they get to take that with them when they go, but we have Pumps in the showers. And so they’re getting a clean dry towel.

Jenn Kloeppel: They don’t have to worry about that. Their clothes are getting clean. If they don’t have anything with the clothes on their back, we have spare clothes that we give them and then they can take them if they want, or they give them back to us and we wash those. We have really tried to think about anything somebody may need.

Jenn Kloeppel: There’s outlets to plug phones in, or there’s hair dryers if you need to blow dry hair after because it’s cold outside because it’s winter. Whatever it is, we wanted this experience to be one where They felt like they got this private space that they never have for the duration of the time that they’re with us.

Jenn Kloeppel: And while they’re waiting, we have water and we partner with groups to provide lunches, or, um, we have outreach workers that may come check in or they’re just hanging out with us and each other. And that’s really beautiful too, but it’s, it’s the safe space. And we work really hard to ensure that it stays safe and it stays a place where people feel good coming.

Jenn Kloeppel: and that takes time and that takes trust and we really haven’t had, many issues. I can think of two and, and those were dealt with really kindly and gently, by everybody and it’s a process to get people there, but they see this giant trailer with Showers For All.

Jenn Kloeppel: And the excitement when people ask, is this for me? And you say, yes, it’s just incredible and sad. Cause I don’t, I don’t want people to like most exciting things for somebody to be a shower, but how beautiful that it is. And that we get to be stewards of that.

Adam Casey: Do you have to remind people about the fact that other people are there to also shower and use the laundry? Or do they just naturally have this understanding that other people are coming in and so they shouldn’t take the hour, two hour long hot shower, even though it might feel good?

Jenn Kloeppel: that’s such a great question. Um, they just naturally do it. There is this, this deep care for each other. Um, even if it’s, uh, subconsciously that they, that there are other people waiting, but there are other people that also need this. And so we really don’t give reminders. We’ve, we’ve had to knock two or three times, but that’s, that’s a safety check, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: We just want to check to make sure you’re okay. One time, somebody had fallen asleep because they were so exhausted from being up all night inside the trailer and it felt. They felt like they could go in there, lock the door and take a nap. And so, otherwise people are, are quick and they want, they, they want everyone to share.

Jenn Kloeppel: Sometimes we have people come and say, Well, they can go in front of me because they have, they have to get to this, this meeting or they have to get here first. So let them go and then I’ll take their spot. So it’s, it’s a really beautiful community of just caring for each other and intentionality around time and, and, and energy to get in that shower.

Jenn Kloeppel: So we don’t, we really do not have to police that at all which is great. I don’t want to have to do that either.

Adam Casey: That’s what I’m really loving about this so far is just the showcase of inherent humanity that we all seem to have and how we all naturally, hopefully have that, sense of compassion towards other people, even when we’re down on our luck and we’re, we’re struggling ourselves, but we still have the capacity to think of other people.

Adam Casey: So that’s, that’s really. That’s really hitting me right, right in the feels

Adam Casey: I still haven’t found that bone in any x ray, but it’s hitting me right there. So that’s, a great, that’s a great story. What does growth look like for you guys? And is it something where you’re trying to just expand in the city of Denver? Or is it something where Whatever term we want to use, there is a, there is something happening across the country where homelessness is on the rise. And do you feel like you’re ready to expand to other cities or do you think that your attention and energy is best served staying here in Denver and growing the impact here?

Jenn Kloeppel: that’s such a great question. And there’s several answers to that. So I think what we’ve done over the last year, we’ve started expanding through the metro area. So we’re in Arvada. We’ve been in Aurora. We’re working with Inglewood. There are. Cities around Denver that we’re actively working on.

Jenn Kloeppel: I get emails every single week saying, can you come do this here regularly? Can you be here regularly? I have a list of 64 locations that want our services, 64.

Jenn Kloeppel: We have three trailers and we have three team members. Our funding has taken a huge hit this year. It’s down 47%, if I’m being really honest.

Jenn Kloeppel: And that’s terrifying. Because our services can’t stop. The demand is up so much. I think that people are really tired of talking about homelessness in Denver. I think that is this idea that the, the initiative to house a thousand people is solving everything because you’re not seeing as many people, but there’s people being moved out of the city of Denver and to other cities.

Jenn Kloeppel: Right. And so, Our challenges have shifted. Our challenges are funding challenges. Our challenges are getting people to pay attention to something that they truthfully, and I understand, are tired of having to pay attention to, right? There are so many things demanding money and time and attention that this doesn’t feel, this hygiene thing doesn’t feel good.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so in order for us to grow, There has to be a funding shift, right? We have to grow our team. Kellen and I have been doing this since 2018 together. It was just two of us for a long time and we worked full time jobs, in addition to this. Then we hired, Corbin who was incredible. He was a volunteer first and then we hired him and then he moved on to his next thing and it was such a celebration for him.

Jenn Kloeppel: And then we’ve hired. Jason, who is running our trailers now. But we need more people, right? We need bodies and we want to pay our people well, and we want to make sure that they’re cared for. and we want to operate our trailers effectively on schedule.

Jenn Kloeppel: We want to grow. The goal was always to expand to different parts of Colorado to expand to different cities around the United States.

Jenn Kloeppel: Detroit has reached out to me. St. Louis has reached out to me. There are cities in California that have reached out Utah. We have places that want the Showers For All there.

Jenn Kloeppel: And we want to be there. The barrier for them. Which then becomes a barrier for us is that they also don’t have funding for it. We know that the need is there. We know that not every single person is going to be housed and that the homeless numbers are on the rise. And so the Showers For All the mission and the work that we do is essential.

Jenn Kloeppel: And it’s not being funded by big, like big cities or by. big corporations yet, I believe deeply in my heart that it’s just the right connection That’s gonna get us to that next step to do this really nationwide and that’s our hope growth will look like for us adding to our team. It will look like expanding throughout the United States and we’re ready to do it and we’re ready to build trailers for other people and train them on best practices that we’ve learned and There are other Initiatives and other things that we have also come to realize are going to be really essential

Jenn Kloeppel: and so, we need the last time we did accounts, the city of Denver would need 24 trailers to serve every single person living on the streets once a week. Which is. Insane, right? So then you think about the country and how many trailers we would need to do that. It shows the need.

Jenn Kloeppel: We believe in that there are people that deeply believe in it. We are, excited about the possibility to build more trailers in the future. We’re excited about the possibility to move to other cities and help them really launch. We’re excited for people to really pay attention to. The way that hygiene makes them feel, and the impact it can have on people externally as well.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so, we are always innovating and always dreaming of the next thing, for Showers For All, and hygiene access. As we continue through this year, our hope is that we can stabilize our financials. Grow our team, and then we can figure out how to service all the places that are demanding what we need.

Jenn Kloeppel: The dreamy answer would be we have all these other incredible projects that we’re fired up about, which is true too. And we want showers to be successful, obviously, and serve the people that we need to serve.

Adam Casey: The dreamy answer is also the scary answer and as scary as it might be that the funding right now is not where it needs to be, is probably something that weighs on your heart and mind every day.

Adam Casey: So I. I wish I had a magic wand. But hopefully this just in our own small way, doing this interview and getting this episode out there we’ll help other people get more involved.

Adam Casey: Speaking of which, as we wind things down. How can people get in touch and help support Showers For All

Jenn Kloeppel: yeah, thank you for asking. Um, we, if you go to our website, we have at the top and not an option to donate, you can do monthly donations, which is our refresh community. So you get unique stories, through your monthly gift every month. And that, that helps us just plan forward. It helps us know what we are guaranteed to have every month and then what, where the deficit is.

Jenn Kloeppel: How much do we have to raise in the meantime, if you have. Family funds or a Business that that wants to donate and be a part of it. You can email me at contact at dignity project. com And that’s on our website too showers4all. org and we have volunteers on the ground all the time helping fold laundry and clean bathrooms and greet our guests and My favorite thing I hear all the time is when you said clean bathrooms I was really stressed and I came and I realized how great it is And how therapeutic it is and how fun it is to then?

Jenn Kloeppel: Set it up for the next person and get to connect with people that are coming and so it’s not bad It’s really not bad. And The the laundry piece is really great to fold and return and and just to get to be outside, right? You get to be outside. How grounding is that that you get to spend the whole day outside connecting with people?

Jenn Kloeppel: And So we we need volunteers and we take kids for volunteers as well. And then I think just sharing sharing what we do, sharing on social media, sharing with your community, sharing this podcast. Um, any, any share that we get helps spread the word about the value of hygiene and, and how essential it is.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so those are big ways you can donate, you can volunteer, and then you can help us tell the story of Showers For All. And I’m always happy to chat about it. I’m, I’m always so proud of the team that, that I have and the guests that we have coming through. And I would love to share how incredible they are and how lucky I am that I get to be a part of something so great.

Adam Casey: no shortage of opportunities for people to get involved is what I’m hearing. And that’s, yeah, no excuses. This is the only part of the podcast where I would admonish anyone that there’s no excuse for not getting involved in some capacity

Jenn Kloeppel: oh, I was just going to say, I think the other thing is, is if. There are people that sometimes do this and they’re like, I, I don’t need to because it’s, it’s their fault that they’re out there all the, all the reasons why you don’t feel like you need to help or, um, just whatever feelings that you’re, that people are wrestling with sometimes that say, no way, this is not worth my time.

Jenn Kloeppel: And I would challenge them to come out anyway, because I’ve had. More people come out after telling me how useless it is and then end up volunteering with us for years because it shifted their perspective about the in house population, about the power of hygiene, about where their dollars are going, all of those things.

Jenn Kloeppel: And so even if you’re uncomfortable with it, even if you think it’s silly and the people don’t deserve it for whatever reason, I would challenge them to. I would challenge you to come out anyway, come experience it because if it could shift your perspective, and if not, well, thanks for, thanks for trying, right?

Jenn Kloeppel: I’m willing to have my first perspective shifted by experiencing something. And if I still walk away and think it’s just not for me, then that’s okay too. But at least you can say that you tried and you invested time in it.

Adam Casey: The challenge has been laid down I like that. So well, I will make sure to include links, To the Showers For All website, to the dignity project website, which I will explain on my own, but then also make sure that your email is in the show notes for anyone who wants to get in touch and who now it wants to accept this challenge

Adam Casey: and to get involved.

Adam Casey: So, Jen. Thank you so much for talking to me today. This has been such a fun conversation and there are so many questions that I have left unanswered or unasked that I would love to learn more about. And hopefully in the future, I get to ask you those questions

Jenn Kloeppel: yes. I would love that so much. Uh, anytime I’m happy to chat and thank you so much again for having us and for celebrating and sharing about Showers For All. It means a lot to us. So thank you.​

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“You’re looking at, it could be 12,000 – 15,000, years of soil deposition that’s being washed away or eroded by hiker footsteps and the impacts that our footsteps cause. With snowmelt and rain and how it rapidly increases erosion.”

Colorado’s fourteeners don’t maintain themselves you know.

Brian Sargeant and the rest of the crew that make up Colorado Fourteeners Initiative help ensure these towering peaks are here for generations to come through trail stewardship and public education.

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She has a runner’s body. It is also a body that lost 200lbs and has run 100-mile ultras and climbed mountains. Even after enduring years of mistreatment from overeating, undereating, binge eating, and no eating, it has helped her accomplish things once thought impossible.

Callie Vinson is an ultra-runner and advocate for body diversity and inclusivity within outdoor sports. She shares her deeply personal story in hopes it’ll inspire you to think twice about what’s holding you back.

Discover the transformative power of embracing your body and join Callie in exploring topics of self-discovery, resilience, and the pursuit of personal goals.

Additional Links

Callie Vinson (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/callievinsonn/

Callie Vinson (Outside Magazine): https://www.outsideonline.com/health/running/culture-running/people/callie-vinson-believes-in-herself/

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TranscriptAdam Casey: Callie, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Callie Vinson: Doing awesome. How are you doing?

Adam Casey: I’m doing great. You know we’ve had a few back and forths. We had some scheduling conflicts, I don’t know, air quotes conflicts. But we had some issues, but it’s so good to finally have you on the show.

Adam Casey: I’m really excited to talk to you because. You’re an advocate for body positivity and also a pretty accomplished ultra runner. But before we get into any of that, I would like to know if I knew you growing up, what kinds of stories would I tell about you?

Callie Vinson: I think one of the first stories you’d probably tell is how I was always I was the dirt.

Callie Vinson: I was always escaping to the backyard and pretending that I was building a fort or playing in the grass and making, you know, where I was going to cook dinner in my escaped environment. And I was always barefoot too, and this was Florida, so you never know what you’re going to step on out there. But yeah, I think as a child I was just so, just, Curious about the outdoors.

Callie Vinson: That I wanted to spend as much time as possible in it. And that’s definitely one of the first stories you probably tell. And then another one would be how much I was always just also fascinated with art. I was always creating something. I was always painting or drawing or, you know When I got older and got a camera, I was always trying to, how to take, take the best picture.

Callie Vinson: And when I was in high school, that’s when I got into a photography class. So growing up I was either always outside playing the dirt or playing with Art .

Adam Casey: And I think the art is awesome because, in some of the prep that I’ve been doing for the interview, definitely, admittedly, looking at your Instagram and seeing some of the content that you put out there.

Adam Casey: And it’s not just a simple, one off photo with a caption, there’s some artistic quality to it. So I definitely, I can’t wait till we get into that kind of later half of the story. But like I mentioned, you’re an advocate for body positivity and for anyone out there who doesn’t know what that term means how would you define body positivity?

Callie Vinson: To me, body positivity is just like taking those moments when you would otherwise have this flood of negative thoughts about yourself and how you look. And maybe it’s like a certain part of your body or the way that. That you move or the way that something is hard to do like going up the stairs and That’s when that kind of triggers all these negative thoughts.

Callie Vinson: I think it’s about changing that and Just reflecting on it and then moving on to have a more positive outlook on your body And I like to kind of bridge the idea of body positivity and body neutrality though I always talk about body positivity. But it’s also about, like, loving what your body can do, too, and appreciating what it can do in whatever stage you’re in, whether you’re trying to be more active, or if you’re happy where you are.

Callie Vinson: I think it’s, in a nutshell, being… Happy with however your body is in that moment and appreciating and loving it and respecting it and Acknowledging everything that our bodies do for us day in and day out versus just having these floods of negative thoughts about it because it looks a certain way

Adam Casey: How did you come to be an advocate for body positivity?

Adam Casey: Because growing up in Florida, you then went on to art school in Chicago how do you bridge the divide between those two periods in your life?

Callie Vinson: Yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things that I didn’t like set out to do.

Callie Vinson: It’s just something that kind of grew organically. I think because of the way I grew up, just very, very shy and very introverted. I never wanted to stand out or like be an advocate of anything or like be the leader.

Callie Vinson: And so that, that idea of like being a leader or an advocate never really crossed my mind until recently. And I think it’s because I’ve heard from other people saying like, oh my gosh, you’ve inspired me to do this. Or, oh my gosh, you made me realize that I’m more capable of, you know, setting out for this ultra marathon.

Callie Vinson: And I never thought I could do that. But because of you I. Like I mentioned, fell in love with my body and I started to appreciate what it could do and just hearing this playback, I was like, Oh, maybe, maybe me sharing all these random adventures that I go on and going after these ultra marathons, maybe it’s actually doing something more than I thought it was.

Callie Vinson: And I thought I was just sharing something on Instagram to be like, Hey, look what I did. But it was, I guess it had more meaning and more value and more purpose. So, it’s one of those things that just kind of, Yeah, happened organically. And I’m still trying to figure it out because I’m still that introverted, very shy person.

Callie Vinson: But because I’ve, I’ve realized that like I said, those adventures that I go on or ultramarathons that I do, they have meaning and can help others. I like to then use those. stories to continue to inspire others.

Adam Casey: I think one selling point for lack of a better term for why you’re becoming, and have become so popular is because of your personal story I believe you lost over 200 pounds what were the origins of losing that weight.

Adam Casey: And take me through that period in your life where you, you realized you needed this change in how you went about actually accomplishing it.

Callie Vinson: Yeah. I, I guess I grew up pretty healthy, pretty normal. Like as a child, child I was always active and. I didn’t realize it later that I chose sports because they required the least amount of running.

Callie Vinson: So, I was always the soccer player, but the goalie, because you just hung in the back and protected the net. And then I was always a rower, and I fell in love with rowing. I actually almost went to college to become a rower, but then… I took a hard right turn to art school, but it was once I went to art school, and maybe before that, that I just kind of, like, fell off the wagon of, of being active and playing sports and picking up just unhealthy habits, I guess you could say, and it was in art school that I just, like, completely just went off the rails and went rogue and just, you know, would eat out at fast food restaurants, like, three times a day, getting, like, two meals for one person and just picking up crumbs.

Callie Vinson: All these bad habits. And because I also was an art student, I was just like the typical art student. And I would party and go out and experiment and do whatever. It was art school, whatever. And then once I got my first job in Chicago, I moved there with all these big dreams and these goals that I wanted to accomplish going into Chicago.

Callie Vinson: And I realized pretty quickly that because of the limits that I put on myself, because of my health, I couldn’t go after a lot of those dreams. Because, I don’t know, I had this moment of just like, Oh my gosh, I’m putting these own limits on myself. This has to change. It started the momentum. But what really started the momentum, and I always tell this story, is one of my friends asked to go to brunch one day, and of course I Googled it to see how far it was, and what I was going to eat, and where we were going to park or whatever, but he was like, Oh, we’re just going to walk there, and it was a mile away, and that terrified me.

Callie Vinson: Absolutely terrified me. Because there was absolutely no way that I could walk a mile to go to brunch. And that ultimately became like the, the switch that flipped or the moment that flipped it. And so I, prior to this, I had failed, you know, trying to lose weight, picking up any kind of fad diet, trying anything and doing it to the extreme and not really creating a sustainable lifestyle.

Callie Vinson: But after that moment, I was like, okay, I got to take this. And I have to put my health first, like, before my career, before my friends, before my family. It has to be the thing that I choose when push comes to shove and it’s like happy hour or no because I’m getting up early and I’m gonna like start a healthy day the next day.

Callie Vinson: And so I started and I, I, Started with small changes like making my breakfast every day for two weeks and then doing that and then Picking up making my lunch every day and doing that And then eventually got a gen membership And I was terrified of going in there because I don’t know what people are gonna think of me like trying to use machine I’ve never used before and I would only go To the gym and running later.

Callie Vinson: Early in the morning or late at night when it was dark. So like, I was hoping nobody would be there so nobody could see me. But eventually, I started getting confidence. And then I was like, okay, running. I’ve always hated running. Despised it. But if I feel like if I can conquer running, I can conquer anything.

Callie Vinson: And so, that became my mission. That became my goal. And I started with just trying to run around the block. And that was, it felt impossible. I mean, my lungs were burning. My, just everything hurt. Even just like a run around the block. But I kept at it and, you know. A run around the block became two blocks, became four, became a mile, two miles.

Callie Vinson: Eventually I just ran like a half marathon, like on my own in the neighborhood one day. And then shortly after that I saw a newspaper talking about the Chicago Marathon. And in my mind, I was like, there’s absolutely no way I could ever run a marathon. But then my next thought was like, I have to run a marathon.

Callie Vinson: And so I went home, did research, found a way to get into the Chicago Marathon. And then in 2016, I ran it. And then. And I went down that hill from there and got into trail and ultra running and the list goes on.

Adam Casey: Well, one thing you kind of mentioned was the lack of success you had in like the fad diets and I, I fully admit I’m someone who’s participated and up until recently been a part of like the keto diet and things like that. And so I am on that side of the equation where I can embrace something like the hottest trend in fitness sometimes, but I can almost do it to a detriment.

Adam Casey: Why do you think that it took something as serious as this is a life or death kind of thing?

Callie Vinson: I think back when I was trying the more like fad diet approach it didn’t really click that that was something that I would need to do for the rest of my life and that was never like there was never like a long-term picture.

Callie Vinson: It was like I just need to lose 20 pounds or 50 pounds and then I’ll feel great I just needed to like get to this goal and then like that’s it it never really clicked for me that whatever I chose that needed to be for life and I think when I started on this, like, okay, we’re going to take this seriously journey.

Callie Vinson: That’s when I was like, okay, let’s just start small. Let’s just start with something small. And at the same time, doing a ton of research. I became so infatuated with just… learning about food and the value of food and almost like what I was considering like the superpowers and food and learning like what they can do for your body versus like how they can harm your body so I learned like what can broccoli do versus like pumpkin seeds or what does what does fat do versus carbs and what is a carb and what is a fat and just learning like the basics of food and ingredients and a nutrition facts label I think because I was gaining all of that, like, just basic knowledge of food.

Callie Vinson: It, it helped flip that switch permanently to something that ultimately has become, fingers crossed, a lifetime, a lifetime just lifestyle, I guess.

Adam Casey: It’s amazing what motivation you have when it’s intrinsic like that. I kind of always joke that I… I have an engineering degree but I don’t know anything about engineering until it came to time to like building out my van.

Adam Casey: And then I had to actually learn how like electrical currents work and things like that because I didn’t want to burn the thing down. And so with fitness and it seems like for you, you said you grew up healthy, but whether or not you had that background, it’s only when it kind of really matters it’s inspiring the challenges that people will take on when in those moments of crisis, it’s so important.

Adam Casey: You’ve been alluding, this is a journey. This is, you know, whatever the, the cliche, it’s not the destination, it’s the the journey along the way. And so obviously this is a continuing evolutionary process. What kind of keeps you motivated now to maintain this lifestyle when you’ve already achieved something so monumental like losing 200 pounds?

Callie Vinson: I think now… Before, when I was very unhealthy in what I ate, and just how sedentary I was, there’s no way I would have been able to see You know, some of the things I, I’ve seen because my, my body has gotten me there.

Callie Vinson: I didn’t drive there. I didn’t, you know, even get on a bike to go there. Like, I either ran there or I hiked there. And I think that has motivated me to just continue because it’s so, I don’t know, I feel like, I feel like I almost unlocked something that was within me all along. And I think that has also become a motivator. The motivation just comes from, like, how this lifestyle makes me feel, and what it allows me to do.

Adam Casey: Like I said, for me, I did the ketogenic diet for a while and it’s not fun. Like, it’s just,

Callie Vinson: I did that one too.

Adam Casey: It’s a boring diet, but for me, having a goal of, you know, being a fellow runner, like, I was all in on the concept that the low carb, high fat high sustainability was the way to burn fuel.

Adam Casey: And so for me in those moments, it was easy for me to stay motivated for that. But up until recently, through my own health concerns, I had to stop doing it. And so now I’m, I’m relearning some of these nutritional facts that I thought were myths and embracing like a higher carb diet.

Adam Casey: And so that’s what’s amazing about I think health and fitness is that it’s. It’s always changing. 10 years from now we’ll be talking about a completely different diet and we’ll probably be looking at the things that we’re doing now and just looking down our nose at them and just being like, oh, I can’t believe they were doing that kind of thing.

Callie Vinson: 100% yeah, it’s funny whenever you like if you’ve gone through that journey of learning more about food And then you go back and look at diets, fad diets You can understand like they were created to help people who don’t want to learn below the or discover more You know below the surface of food just helping them to just like create this like easy plan to get healthy or to lose weight or to Get to some goal and and looking back.

Callie Vinson: I understand it now I see it like looking back at Weight Watchers looking back at like the 21 day or Whole 30 or Keto. They’re designed just to be like something that anyone can pick up and you don’t have to learn anything else other than this but I feel like now that I know way more about food. It’s almost like I can just eat and live this lifestyle freely knowing that, I don’t know, that I’m getting all the nutrients that I need without having to follow a diet.

Callie Vinson: But I, I understand why the diets are created, but I also understand how they can be a problem, too. Because personally, I’m, I can be very militant in, like, my diet or my regimen. Like, if I had to eat the same thing for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a month, easy, no problem.

Callie Vinson: I can see why the diets are popular because they’re also easy. You just pick it up and you follow the plan and that’s it.

Adam Casey: Continuing along your story, you know, you picked up running as a means to an end for this process of losing weight, but yet you continue to run and now here you are talking to me today and you’ve done things like the Moab 240.

Adam Casey: You’ve done 100 mile races, you’ve done the Tahoe 200, if I’m correct, right? Or no, you’ve done Cocodona. You did Cocodona 250.

Adam Casey: Why? is probably my first question. Like once you get past a point of maybe you didn’t have a specific goal weight that you wanted to achieve.

Adam Casey: But why did you continue to run once you kind of did achieve that weight loss goal of losing 200 pounds.

Callie Vinson: Yeah, it’s funny because like you mentioned, like, running was just a means to lose weight originally. And then once, I don’t know, I met that goal, I continued with it, I think because I just fell in love with running.

Callie Vinson: I love what it allows me to do. It’s connected me to this amazing community. It like I mentioned, brings you to amazing places that not a lot of people can, can see. And. It also just like, it allows me to continue to challenge myself in a different way outside of my day to day. Like, I’m a creative in the ad agency and that’s challenging, but that’s challenging for my mind and my creativity and imagination.

Callie Vinson: And then, outside of that, I don’t really have any physical challenge because, I don’t know, that’s not a part of my job. So, running has become this thing that continues. This curiosity to see like how far I can go or how better I can be at Performing or how better can I get at fueling or it just becomes like this.

Callie Vinson: I know this it’s not a game But it’s just something I’m just continually curious about and then also there’s just so many races out there and the races Again, bring you to all these amazing places and connect you to that community. And so running is just It’s become that thing that, I don’t know, it’s part of my, part of my day.

Callie Vinson: And so when you get to do it for multiple days at a time and a 240 mile race, it’s like, Oh, I can keep doing this and not have to log into my phone or a laptop. I’ll sign me up.

Adam Casey: It’s amazing the people that are continuing to get involved in things like ultra running not just running in general and I feel like a lot of people come from backgrounds where they have such a dichotomy in that and that their typical day to day life is more definitely more sedentary but more confined to just being inside. I know I’m in this camp when I’m able to go for a run and when I am in a race but just the idea of unplugging and disconnecting like that during a race is definitely one of the highlights for me.

Adam Casey: The physical fitness benefits, you know, that I am hopefully getting those are secondary to just having the ability to be outside.

Adam Casey: So I definitely can empathize with that.

Callie Vinson: It is funny, the farther I’ve gone in distance, the less I, I place, or the lower I place like the health benefits towards the top. They kind of become secondary or tertiary because there’s so much more that becomes the primary or secondary the farther you go, and I’m sure you notice that in the hundred mile too, which is, It’s also just incredible to do a hundred mile.

Callie Vinson: So congrats on that.

Adam Casey: Thanks. Well, that was three years ago, and there’s a reason why I’ve only done one and I always like to tell the story, I ran it here in Colorado and just when I did it, it was during elk hunting season and I just had these, like, imaginations of like, oh, you know, it’d be awesome if a hunter shot me with a bow and arrow right now so I didn’t have to finish this race.

Callie Vinson: [Laughter].

Callie Vinson: Yeah. Please. Anyone. [Laughter].

Adam Casey: I’d take one. I’d take one on the butt for that. [Laughter].

Adam Casey: So you’re a self described shy person, but looking at your public persona, it’s just that it’s public. How did a shy person like you decide to make that change to being more public, not just about their overall life, but something as deeply personal, like your weight loss journey and just overall body image?

Callie Vinson: I think just discovering that the more I shared my story and my journey and the adventures I go on and found out that it was helping others or inspiring others or making people rethink what they’re capable of, that then became the motivator to keep doing it. And it’s funny because whenever I do… Like, you know, whenever I post photos or a Reel now I imagine myself sharing those with like, a small group of people.

Callie Vinson: Like, I’m sharing them with just my people. You know, it’s not like to the world or public. It’s just like, I’m creating this or I’m posting this because I’m just talking to this smaller group of people. And, to me, it makes it feel more intimate, and it makes it feel more personable, and it makes it feel more genuine and authentic.

Callie Vinson: Versus… I don’t know, something that I’m, I feel like I’m broadcasting, you know, country to country. And, I don’t know, maybe that’s how I, I help my, my stuff be, feel more authentic and real is because I feel like I’m only talking to a small group of people, but I know that it’s going to a lot more people than what’s going on in my mind.

Adam Casey: I really like that idea of you’re not just posting, you know anyone can look, look at your follower count and be quite impressed. And so having this mindset of I’m still posting for this core group of people that I would consider part of my community versus 60, 000 followers that you have.

Adam Casey: I think that’s a really interesting point it can be something that gets lost on a lot of people that are trying to be more public and have a brand like that.

Adam Casey: What kind of feedback do you get when you’re preparing for a race like Moab or Cocodona, and you’re posting about your training and everything, and I’m sure there’s going to be some naysayers out there, but what kind of feedback do you generally get when you do post something?

Callie Vinson: I would say generally it’s all positive, it’s all like people being supportive in the same way that I would be supportive of them, like commenting on something that they posted. It’s generally people who are like, yeah, you can do this, or like, oh my gosh, I never thought of this, I should try that. And, and so because it is more positive than negative, it then also, like, inspires me and motivates me to keep going.

Callie Vinson: Keep posting, but I mean there are definitely those people out there who will post something negative and to me I just kind of laugh about it Because it’s like why? Why waste like a moment of your life being negative or hurtful or unkind to someone when you have no idea how much time you have left on this floating rock.

Callie Vinson: So just like, I don’t know, I’m all about more love than, than just being rude and mean.

Adam Casey: Yeah, the trolls that are out there for me, it’s this quote “graveyards are filled of people who thought they were more important than they really were”. And that one just, it’s as morbid as it is, it helps me kind of in those moments when, let’s just be honest, someone’s being a dick and you’re like, you know what?

Adam Casey: Do you like that? I’m not going to waste my energy. I’m not going to waste my time responding to it. And I can only imagine just again, because of. body image stuff. And you know, that is just such a contentious topic sometimes. And the fitness industry is so contentious. But let alone the fact that you’re a female, I can’t even imagine some of this stuff that you get.

Adam Casey: But I’m glad to hear that it’s mainly a majority positive.

Adam Casey: When you say you engage with the people that do give you support. How does that make you feel when someone, I’m guessing, probably reaches out to you and says, “Following your stuff or seeing your story helped me start my own journey to” whether it’s losing weight or becoming a runner?

Callie Vinson: I mean, it’s so hard to not feel anything but just like overwhelmed with joy, like it makes me feel just so happy that maybe that flip switched for them and they’ve been waiting and they’ve been trying and they’ve, you know, tried and failed, tried and failed like I used to do.

Callie Vinson: And maybe they’re going after it and this is going to be it. This is going to be the moment that that changes and it becomes this journey that they continue to go on. And whether that’s like a weight loss journey or just like a health journey or a running journey, it’s hard. It’s hard to start. You don’t know how to start.

Callie Vinson: You don’t know where to start. You’re, you’re vulnerable in that moment when you’re, you’re, you’re basically saying like, I’ve done it wrong this whole time and I’m going to try and do it right. You know, if you’re going for a health journey, and it’s hard to be a newbie in running. You don’t know what’s the right way.

Callie Vinson: You don’t know if you’re running right. You don’t know if your form’s correct. You don’t know if you’re, you have the right gear. And I felt like a fool in the beginning, trying all this stuff out for the first time, even just like how to run. I had no idea what I was doing, and that’s why I only ran in the dark, because I didn’t want people to see me.

Callie Vinson: But, I know how that feels, so when people are saying like, Hey, you inspired me to sign up for my first 50k, or hey, you inspired me to like, rethink my health and, and where I am right now. I, I… Completely sympathize with those people because I know how hard it is and I know the effort that it takes to, like I did, you had to, you have to put that goal above everything else and that in itself is hard to do.

Callie Vinson: So I applaud them and wish them well in their journey.

Adam Casey: And do you think that that’s something, I guess, negative about the running community in the fact that people approach it with such shyness that are from the outside, and I won’t paint too broad of a brush, I would say the running community in my eyes has some things they can improve upon, but for the most part, it’s pretty welcoming.

Adam Casey: But what would you say are some of the shortcomings in not just the running community, but the ultra running community when it comes to stuff like weight loss and body positivity because I think a lot of people have this conception that

Adam Casey: “Oh, you’re a runner and, oh, you run these long distances. You must be able to eat everything you can.”

Adam Casey: But that’s not necessarily the case, but I’d love to hear what you think in air quotes is wrong about the ultra running community and what your work is trying to do to address it.

Callie Vinson: I think for so long the idea of what an ultra runner looks like has been portrayed very clearly very thin fit, maybe generally white. And I think that there’s a lot of great people out there. Who are, are working to change that, and are working to show that you can have this body, you can be this, how many years old, you can be a woman, you can be a man, you can be trans, you can be whatever, and you belong in the ultra community.

Callie Vinson: My goal, my personal goal, is to one day see an ultra running mag cover or a Runner’s World cover of someone who’s not fit, toned, maybe not young. And for them to not talk anything about their age, not talk anything about body positivity. But just talk on the cover as if it was like any other runner, like your, your stereotypical runner because I think that’s when that happens.

Callie Vinson: That’s like when we’ve got there. When you can see someone who maybe looks like me or, or someone, I don’t know, who just looks like a normal person on a running magazine cover and for them to not acknowledge like bravery or body positivity or their weight loss journey, I think that’s when we can finally realize that everyone can be an ultra runner.

Callie Vinson: Everyone can be a runner, a trail runner. And everyone belongs versus, you know, the contrary.

Adam Casey: And what other advocates like yourself are kind of out there, if at all trying to champion this message?

Adam Casey: Because, no offense to you, but I feel like there’s probably other people who have come before you who have had the same story and hopefully the same results, but why is it taking until 2023 for someone like you to get the notoriety that you’re getting?

Callie Vinson: I don’t know why, honestly, but I do remember, I just jogged my memory back when I was. I think right after I finished my first marathon and I had just learned about ultras and trail running, I, there was this one guy, I can’t remember his name, but he lost, I think like 100 or 150 pounds and he finished the Leadville 100.

Callie Vinson: And I was just like, Oh my God, like, I can’t believe that someone can do that. Like one, go through that journey and two, become a runner and three. run a hundred mile race. And not just a hundred, but the Leadville, the Race Across The Sky. And that became like, Oh man, like if he can do it, maybe I can do something like this.

Callie Vinson: Maybe I can do a 50 miler or a 100k or a hundred miler one day.

Adam Casey: Again, like my bone to pick with the ultra running community. I think there’s a lot of sometimes “do as I say, not as I do”. And even though I’ve never been in a position where I’ve lost 200 pounds, I’ve been in a position, where I’m still in this position, where I struggle with body image.

Adam Casey: And I’m considered thin and athletic build, but I still have really significant body image issues and for me, it’s not uncommon for me to wake up in the morning and see myself in the mirror and have some pretty negative thoughts about the way I look

Adam Casey: but it is one of those things where I feel like the more people talk about it, and seeing someone like you be more vocal about it does help someone like me.

Adam Casey: Just even in this conversation bring up the fact I, have body image issues where usually I wouldn’t because being a guy I don’t want to be looked at a different way.

Callie Vinson: Yeah. A hundred percent. I think that’s a great point. Like the more people like rally around this and make it feel normal to be in whatever stage they are, whether they’re older or you know, their body, their nationality, wherever they come from.

Callie Vinson: To show up and say, I’m a runner and I’m an ultra runner and I belong in this space. The more that people do that, the more that people who didn’t think that at all are going to see that and maybe think better of themselves or start to believe that they can go after these goals. And yeah, the more that we can make it a norm and the louder the voice, I think the better for everybody.

Callie Vinson: Cause I’ve noticed that too, even with my boyfriend Scott, like even he has body image issues and I’m like, are you kidding me? Like you’re a fast, elite ultra trail runner with like a 2:29 marathon PR time absolutely not sir.

Callie Vinson: But I completely understand it because we grew up just being told to look a certain way And if you didn’t look this certain way then then that’s wrong and that’s unnatural and that’s not normal and you need to change that or plastic surgery or yada yada yada, and I think the more that we can show up is just real people with real bodies.

Callie Vinson: I think we can finally move past that, hopefully.

Adam Casey: So one question I wanted to kind of ask, because it seems like you did a lot of this on your own.

Callie Vinson: I did.

Adam Casey: Not just, not just the weight loss, but then also training and running these races.

Adam Casey: Do you think it was important for you to do this independently, or do you think it would have been easier for you had you met Scott from day one and had someone giving you all this nutritional advice.

Adam Casey: Or do you think it was necessary for you to both physically struggle along the way mentally struggle by learning how to change your lifestyle so that it stuck?

Callie Vinson: I think I learn the best if I just jump and build my weight, my wings on the way down. That’s how I’ve always learned best. And Yeah, I think that’s just my personality, because like when I moved to Chicago, I moved with two suitcases and just like crashed on someone’s floor. When I moved to Arizona, I found a place and two weeks I was gone.

Callie Vinson: And you just kind of figure it out along the way. But I think because I, I learned on my own and did research as I needed to do research, because that’s when I wanted to learn that information and I, I knew how to apply it right then and there. I think that’s, That was probably the best scenario for me because it’s one thing to, to be told how to do something.

Callie Vinson: But like we were talking before, like if it doesn’t apply to my need in that moment, like it’s just going to go in one ear and out the other.

Adam Casey: I’m the same way sometimes too, it’s either I just got to jump right into the deep end and just hope that I find a way to swim or if not, I just walk away from the edge of the pool to continue that terrible metaphor.

Adam Casey: [Laughter]

Adam Casey: Well, one thing you recently did. And I hope this is bringing up a sore topic is Western States this year. You participated in Western States but you did that in partnership with Rising Hearts and GU Labs. and so I’d love to hear, how did you get involved with those two organizations and let you talk about your Western States experience and what came out of that.

Callie Vinson: Yeah, so every year, GU they get a sponsored bib and GU is partnered with Rising Hearts for this year and last year too. And Rising Hearts they wanted to pick me to raise awareness for that body positivity. And so I was completely honored and I said yes. And it’s funny because at the moment I was thinking I was going to run Cocodona for 2023 and then I get this message from Jordan saying, Hey, do you want this bib?

Callie Vinson: And I was like yeah because how often do you get a chance to run Western States? It’s one of the hardest races to get into. And I, so, I went all in. With training, I mean, I had Scott coach me, and, I mean, he finished 10th place in 2022, so I’m like, okay, he knows what he’s doing. So I had full trust that whatever he told me to do in training I would do it.

Callie Vinson: Which is very rare for me, because, like we talked, I have to learn my own way. But for this, I was like, I’m gonna do it. Like, exactly what I need to do because it’s a very important race and for an important cause, and I want to take it very seriously. So, training went spectacular. Just spot on, everything I needed to do.

Callie Vinson: Fueling up until Western States, I’ve always, always, always had stomach issues. Racing and running every single time and that’s what ultimately pulled me out of Cocodona one year and it had the same issues in Moab but I was just so stubborn that I just kept going the entire time with those issues but anyway so I was very concerned that this was gonna happen again at Western States but this is the first time that I tried GU’s liquid fueling option their Roctane drink and I was curious to try it out.

Callie Vinson: And of course in that moment, I’m like, well, nothing else has worked. So why not try this? And for the first time I’ve never had stomach issues. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, training’s going well. Fueling is going great. I I’ve got everything figured out. And then this happened to be one of the craziest snow years of all time.

Callie Vinson: And so we get to we get to training camp, which is Memorial day weekend. And I mean, we start. Training camp the first day 30 miles into the course and if you know this course, it’s a net downhill race So you start higher up and you go down So we start 30 miles in and there’s a shit ton of snow shit ton of snow and ice and I’m like well, what is the first 30 miles look like?

Callie Vinson: I think it was like for the first 10k of the training day. It was just all snow, just all snow and me, I’m a total fish out of water or Bambi, as you want to picture it, trying to navigate on snow and ice. I mean, I have no momentum. And so once we left training camp and we were kind of leading up to the actual race weekend, I was so concerned because I knew.

Callie Vinson: If, even if there wasn’t snow and ice, I had to push to meet these cutoffs, because there’s a lot of climbing at Western States, but even more descending, and that can tear your quads up, tear your whole legs up. I was concerned with the cutoff times anyway, and then knowing that there was still gonna be a ton of snow going into the race I was just like, you know what?

Callie Vinson: I can’t control the weather. I can’t control what’s out there all I can do is just give it my best and see what happens. So it’s kind of the mindset that I went into the race even Scott was a lot of the runners were struggling I mean just trying to navigate the race for the first or the snow for the first like 20 some miles It was just full of ice and not just like nice ice to run on.

Callie Vinson: It was, it was hard, slippery, very unfun ice and I can’t tell you how many times I fell how many times I had to butt slide down a steep hill because that was the only option of getting down the hill I think I had bruises on my hips for like two weeks after the race but I get to the Duncan Canyon Aid Station and I don’t make the cutoff so they had to they had to take my wristband.

Callie Vinson: So that’s, that’s ultimately where my race ended. But I left it with absolutely like no sadness, no regrets. I did everything I could. I moved as fast as I could in the ice. And you know what? There’s more ultra marathon racing to do.

Callie Vinson: And so what we did is my people who were going to pace me, we went to a pizza shop around the corner and got like a huge stack of pizzas for the whole team. And, and was at the finish line there waiting for Scott and saw him finish.

Adam Casey: The ability just to say I did everything I could left it all on the table is so important and the truth of , there will always be another race you will eventually find your way back to Western States if that’s what you want.

Adam Casey: I like the phrase, things don’t happen for a reason, things happen and it’s up to you to find the reason in them.

Adam Casey: And maybe just that day you just needed to celebrate with some pizzas with Scott.

Callie Vinson: That’s also kind of like what draws us into ultras is because there is no guarantee. There’s no guarantee that you’re going to finish. That race, so it just it draws you in even more and makes you want to put yourself into the challenge and see what’s possible.

Adam Casey: Well one last question kind of before we, we wrap things up, but I know you’ve got an FKT coming up. I’d love to hear kind of what you’ve got planned. And just, I guess the way to ask that question is what’s next for Callie?

Callie Vinson: Yeah, so what’s next is an FKT attempt, which, if you don’t know, it stands for Fastest Known Time and it’s gonna be in Arizona.

Callie Vinson: So it’s the, the Maricopa Loop Trail, which is about a 250 mile complete loop that goes all around the valley, and I’m gonna try and do it in under 109 hours We’ll see. And, and originally I was going back and forth between supported or unsupported but after posting that and getting messages from people saying like, I will come down there and help you.

Callie Vinson: I want to be a part of this so bad that it got me thinking like, there’s so much more meaning when you can bring a community together for an effort versus me just going out there and doing this thing by myself. So I want this to be a supported effort that brings together the trail community in Arizona.

Adam Casey: That’s so unselfish of you. That’s awesome.

Adam Casey: When are you going to do this?

Callie Vinson: I’m going to do it over Thanksgiving weekend.

Adam Casey: Oh, okay.

Adam Casey: Well if I somehow find myself in Arizona on Thanksgiving, you better believe I’m going to invite myself because I love rad stuff like that.

Adam Casey: Well, Callie, this has just been such a fun conversation.

Adam Casey: How would you like people that are out there to engage with you and your work?

Callie Vinson: I think the easiest way and probably the most engaging and hopefully valuable way is through Instagram. And now you can find me under Callie Vinson with two ‘n’s at the end.

Adam Casey: I will be sure to include a link to that in the show notes as well.

Adam Casey: We’ve touched on a few different things, but I think the biggest takeaway is the message that you’re putting out there and for all the world to see as shy as you might still be from that little girl growing up in Florida

Adam Casey: But Callie again, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed this.

Callie Vinson: Yes yes, thank you. Thanks for having me.

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“In kind of thinking about who I am or, and really who we are as an organization, it's that idea that we all come to the outdoors from different places and it's not always the solo person standing on top of a rugged mountain peak.It can be as simple as sitting in your backyard, or even in a local park.”

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“Basically what we’re doing is trying to bridge this gap. We know the problems of climate change, we know the solutions, and what’s going to connect those two is community. It’s people."

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“My promise to my readers is I’m going to be honest and I’m going to be fair and when we’re explaining the issue at the top, like I will be as neutral and balanced in that section as I can.”

Welcome everyone to the It Matters To Me Podcast, a show that seeks out the passions in all of our lives and the motivations behind why we pursue them.

Joining me on this episode is Isaac Saul, the voice and curator of Tangle News.

Isaac is a politics reporter who grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, one of the most politically divided places in the United States.

In 2020, he created Tangle in an attempt to get people out of their information bubbles and only hearing stories that reaffirmed their existing beliefs.

His dream has been to create the most trusted brand in political news — all inside a newsletter you can read in just 10 minutes a day and a daily podcast that synthesizes major news events into a format free from political punditry.

What really drew me to interviewing him though was recognizing how much work Isaac has put into making Tangle what it is today.

And even though I wouldn’t necessarily call myself a news junkie, I do like to have at least a high-level understanding of what’s happening around the world and
I’ve really enjoyed listening to Tangle every day to get that information.

From how he takes a single story and turns it into a newsletter and podcast to how he manages the stress of being on a daily deadline, our conversation is a peak behind the curtain into how Tangle is fast becoming people’s go-to news source.

Additional Links

Tangle News (Website): ⁠https://www.readtangle.com/⁠

Tangle News (Youtube): ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@tanglenews⁠

Tangle News (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/tangle.news/

It Matters To Me (Instagram): ⁠https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/⁠

Read the transcript

Adam Casey
Welcome, everyone to the it matters to me podcast show that seeks out the
passions in all of our lives, and the motivations behind why we pursue them.
Joining me on this episode is Isaac soul, the voice and curator of tangled news
media. Isaac is a politics reporter, who grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania,
one of the most politically divided places in the United States. And in 2020,
he created tangle news in an attempt to get people out of their information
bubbles in only hearing stories that reaffirm their existing beliefs. His dream
has been to create the most trusted brand and political news all inside a
newsletter you can read in just 10 minutes a day, and a daily podcast that
synthesizes major news events into a format free of political punditry. What
really drew me to interviewing him, though, was recognizing just how much work
Isaac has put into making untangle what it is today. And even though I wouldn’t
necessarily call myself a news junkie, I do like to have at least a high level
understanding of what’s happening around the world. And I’ve really enjoyed
listening to tangle every day to get that information. Everything from how he
takes a single news story, and turns it into a newsletter and podcast, to how
he manages the stress of being on a daily deadline. Our conversation is a peek
behind the curtain into how tangle is fast becoming people’s go to news source.
All right. Let’s get to it. Here’s my talk with Isaac Saul.

Isaac, welcome to the show. It’s an honor to have you.

Isaac Saul
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I’m glad to be here.

Adam Casey
Now you are quite the media conglomerate, if I must say you run, you write a
newsletter that’s growing in popularity, if anything, I’ve heard quite a few
people talk about it in my circle. And I’ve recently discovered your podcast.
And so we’ll definitely get into a lot of those things. But one way I like to
start the show is with this generic question, but in a fun, kind of upbeat way
that I think gives the listener a little bit of a better insight into who the
guest is. And that question is, if I knew you growing up, what kinds of stories
would I tell about young Isaac?

Isaac Saul
Oh, God. I think you would probably tell stories of somebody who was a bit of a
troublemaker, I have two older brothers. We were pretty mischievous. Growing
up, we were always finding new ways to infuriate my mom, all athletes, just
like boys, you know, to the tee. Like stereotypical boys. We were rough and
stupid and arrogant, and made I think, a lot of dumb mistakes, but also learned
a lot as kids and had two parents who, you know, were open minded but had their
boundaries to you know, lay the law down when they had to so. God Yeah, that’s
a good question. I think most of the stories would probably be about me doing
something that was a little bit stupid, but maybe like, brilliant also. Good
example is like, I was 15 years old and I bought a Winnebago le shero as my
first car so you know, I used to pick up 10 friends on my way to school and
hang out in that thing and party when I was a senior in high school and that
was how I spent my Bar Mitzvah money and it was like you know, I don’t know if
that was the best way to do it but I have some really good memories from it now
and people remember me for having my first car that was an RV

Adam Casey

Yeah, I must say I take pride in my first car being a Jeep Cherokee with
wood panels on the side but I think an RV an RV would have been would have been
next level um Well speaking of brilliance and I do think this kind of loosely
ties into who you are today but you’re the founder of tangle net should I say
news media or News Corp people call it

Isaac Saul
tango. They call it Tango news. Our I think we’re incorporated as Tango media
LLC. So all of them work.

Adam Casey
Okay. Well, again, speaking of brilliant, I find tangle news. Absolutely
brilliant. I’ve only recently discovered your work but I definitely I devour it
every day that it comes out but I would love to hear you kind of describe what
it is that tangle news represents

Isaac Saul
Sure, yeah. So I mean, first of all, I’m a political journalist. That’s my
background, I went to school for nonfiction writing journalism track, and got
my career as a sports reporter. In college, that was kind of how I started. And
when I graduated, I transitioned to politics. And I realized pretty quickly
that the media ecosystem was broken that most Americans are getting news that
kind of just reaffirms their prior beliefs. We all are sort of living in our
own little media bubbles and echo chambers, which I think is something we’re
more aware of now than we’ve ever been a lot of your listeners have probably
heard those terms, which, you know, wasn’t true 10 years ago. And I used to,
because of my own kind of political incongruence, being sort of all over the
place on a lot of different issues. I used to feel like I had to read 10
different news articles about the same topic to just understand what the hell
was going on. So, you know, Trump gets indicted, like, we were recording this
on March 31. The news broke last night. In a normal world, like, I would have
to go read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, The Washington Post,
watch Fox News, watch CNN, get all the different voices, all the different
takes on what was going on out there and then be like, Okay, maybe now I have
some sort of semblance of what a you know, what the truth is, what a fair
balanced take is a full collection of the information. And I just kind of was
thinking, I wish there was a place that put all that stuff in one spot where I
could read it all side by side. And that was kind of the original Genesis
written down in notebook idea for tangle. And so I came up with a format that
is basically explaining what the news of the day is, what the big political
debate of the day is, in the most neutral language I can, which is actually the
hardest part of the newsletter is the sort of introduction, six or seven
paragraphs, just breaking down, what’s the issue? What are we going to talk
about today. And then I collect the three most compelling interesting opinions
I can find from the right and three from the left, and I just put them in
succession in order with each other, and then I share my take at the end of the
newsletter. So I kind of give myself a little bit of space to just give my own
personal opinion and write like a mini op ed. So if you read our newsletter,
you know, front to back, you’ll get three opinions from the left three opinions
from the right, and then my personal view on whatever the big debate is, and
all of it sort of package with a really neutral explanation, basically,
breakdown of what you need to know about the story. And people really love it.
I mean, my, my fundamental idea was basically just getting all those opinions
in one, place it and then also getting people out of that bubble, that echo
chamber that we’re all living in. So they could experience and encounter some
views that might exist outside their immediate social circle or family, where
that might challenge their own prior beliefs. And I was not sure whether
there’d be an interest in it, because we all obviously really like our silos
and we like feeling smart. And we like feeling like we’re right. People
typically don’t like changing their minds or being challenged. And I have been
pleasantly surprised that there seems to be a really high demand for this kind
of news, which has been really exciting for me.

Adam Casey
If I’m correct, it’s, it started out as a basic newsletter that you circulated
among friends. And then it kind of grew from there. Is that correct?

Isaac Saul
Yeah. So I was working a full time job as a politics reporter and editor and
the company I was working for was changing. And it was changing the way that I
didn’t really want to be a part of their sort of doing like the pivot to video
and moving away from written and reported content. So I had this idea for the
newsletter for a long time. And I basically started a sub stack newsletter
mailing list, and just sent a version of the newsletter to like 100 friends and
colleagues and just had a note that was like, Hey, let me know what you think
about this and kicking around this idea. And initially, there was no section. I
mean, there were a lot of sections. We have a lot of sections now that didn’t exist
then. But one of the big ones that was missing was the My take part. The first
few newsletters I sent out were just like the story with a leftist saying what
the writer is saying, and a lot of people responded and said, like, Dude, I
love this. I would totally read this if you were doing this every day. But what
do you think like, you’re a politics reporter. You know, I’m actually curious
what your opinion and I got a bunch of people responding with that. So I was
like, Oh, alright, maybe I’ll just add this little section which ended up being
really useful because it was a way for me to kind of show my cards with readers
and just say like, look, I’m person, I have opinions, I my own beliefs, like
your my views out in the open, you can take them or leave them. And I think
that that builds a lot of trust and a readership. I think if I weren’t doing
that people would be a lot more suspicious about, you know, what my motives
were and what I was trying to do. And I think the fact that I get to share my
take, and the newsletter is sort of like an act of transparency of just like,
you know, that I’m coming from this position, but I’m gonna share a lot of
opinions in the newsletter that I don’t agree with every day, because that’s
like, you know, it’s the whole point, basically.

Adam Casey
And on top of that, you would I also enjoy the ending each episode if you take,
like listener questions. And I think one just maybe yesterday, the day before,
it was a simple one about why you supposedly didn’t cover Joe Biden’s gaffe
before the Nashville shooting was announced. Your listener asked like, why
weren’t you covering that? And I, I do appreciate the fact that you kind of
retro actively go back to things and re examine them based on new evidence or
based on like new new news, for the most part, and I think it you just like you
said, he does give a little bit of authenticity alongside your, your added my
take section, so that, you know, you’re not just presenting yourself as some as
some robot who’s only delivering facts, you’re just synthesizing it, and you’re
putting it out there. But you’re still encouraging people to make their own
decisions based on what you’re reporting.

Isaac Saul
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a really human element to the newsletter that kind
of happened organically, that people connect to, you know, I’m not the only
place that does this. There’s like different kinds of versions that sort of
have, you know, that I would call competitors that sort of have like a space
where you can see left and right opinions in one spot. They’re not particularly
common. But I think what attracts a lot of readers to us is that there is this
person behind it, which, you know, they it gives them somebody to challenge
when they feel like I’m wrong about something. It’s like, it adds a little
personality, the newsletter, which I think makes it more interesting. But yeah,
we’ve done a lot of things. I mean, answering reader questions is a big one
that gives the readers a space to sort of like push back on things I’ve
written, or just, you know, direct what the content is going to be in the
newsletter. So we answer a reader question every day in the newsletter in the
podcasts. And then, you know, we also have a policy of putting corrections at
the top of the newsletter featuring them very prominently and at the top of the
podcast, and we keep a correction count running. So anytime I have a
correction, I’ll tell you, you know, this is the 110th correction and our 950
newsletters, and it’s the first correction we’ve had since you know, march 1,
or something like that. And oftentimes, we’ll try and explain how Mistakes
happen in the newsletter, which I think people also really like. And we try and
share reader feedback. So if somebody writes in and they have like really biting
criticism about my argument, or another argument that appeared in the
newsletter, they say, Hey, actually, I’m, you know, a staffer working on this
piece of legislation, here’s my perspective on it. We’ll share that in the
newsletter with readers, which, you know, people also really like that because
it gives it makes it so it’s like the communities participating in the creation
of the newsletter, a little bit

Adam Casey
of it, like a crowdsource newsletter, is walk me through what your day to day
might be like, you know, you gave the example of trumping indicted last night
like what is your process from start to finish from where you hear a piece of
news? And then you go in like that being the start. And then the final result
being a published newsletter and published podcast?

Isaac Saul
Yeah. So with a story like the Trump indictment, those are actually a little
bit easier for me to cover because I’ve covered it a few times before. So I
have a bunch of background like institutional knowledge already. Some of the
hardest newsletters are when there’s a story popping up. That’s totally new to
me, like when Silicon Valley Bank collapsed, I did learn a lot about how the
bank worked. And you know, what the regulators were doing and what was specifically
California and how the tech industry impacted and what the federal government
oversight was supposed to be like. I mean, there’s all this stuff. That was it
was like a totally new issue for me that required days of research. But a
typical story is usually more like the Trump indictment, which is like, there
are pieces of it that I already understand, already know, because I cover
politics for a living. So for a story like that, you know, the New York Times
broke the Trump indictment story on Thursday night, so I’ll read their piece,
you know, it goes straight to the source that actually broke the story, which
is something I don’t think readers do enough. That story that New York Times
publish has now been repurposed and recycled on a million different news
outlets. You can read it all throughout the media. goes so but there were three
reporters that the New York Times actually broke that story. So, you know, read
their piece for see what the original languages see what they actually know in
that initial piece. Since it was broken in the New York Times, the first thing
I’ll do is go read a version of that story in The Wall Street Journal or Fox
News, like a more of right of center news outlet to make sure that I’m not
biasing myself, like if I read The New York Times, and then the Washington
Post, and then CNN and then MSNBC, it’s like, I will remember all the facts and
framing of those first few networks, because that’ll be my first impression of
the story. And I know that if I do that it like will bias me in a way that is
really hard for me to break out of. So I’ll be really intentional about making
sure that the second or third place I go and read about the story is from some
kind of right of center, conservative voice. And I’ll try and read those straight
news stories first, and then then it’s scouring the opinion section. So you
know, I have a Google document of probably like, multiple hundreds of news
outlets that are out there with, you know, notes about what what their
political bias tends to be. So, you know, the National reviews editorial board
is like right of center. So I know if I’m looking for a conservative opinion,
about a big topic, maybe I’ll go read National Review and see what you know,
their, their opinion makers are saying, I really prefer written opinion pieces.
But in today’s day and age, obviously, you know, you have the primetime news
anchors, you know, the Rachel Maddow, Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, the CNN
lineup, so I try and tune in and watch those who read transcripts of their shows,
all those news outlets publish transcripts of the primetime shows, after
they’re upset, I’ll go read them like the morning after and just see what
Tucker is saying about the like the big issue, people are debating or something
like that. And then there’s the podcasters. And the YouTubers, which are both
valuable because I think their audiences are really big. And they are their
arguments tend to be easy to suss out in terms of what the partisan leanings
are. But it’s a little bit more difficult, because listening to somebody just
takes a lot more time than reading, I can read a lot faster than I can listen
to somebody talk through something. So it’s a little more time consuming. So
you know, I’m definitely reading more opinion pieces than I am consuming
podcasts and YouTube personalities. And that’ll be like the first four or five
hours on a story, we’ll be just like taking in as much as I possibly can. And
anytime I come across something that’s either like, Okay, this point has been
made in like, six different articles. So clearly, this is the talking point on
the right about this issue, pulling that out and putting it in the newsletter
and like, make sure I’m gonna represent this. And then, you know, I try and
pick stuff that’s kind of a mix of like, what’s really representative of the
opinion on the right or the left. So what’s like, what’s the that thing I’m
seeing that’s coming up over and over again, what two or three points they
hammering, make sure we have some pieces that are sort of representing that.
And then I usually try to include at least one piece from both the right and
the left, that’s like, a little bit bucking whatever the party line is, or
maybe offering some kind of like, alternative perspective, because it’s
important for me that, you know, to make it clear that even amongst the right
and the left, there isn’t just like monolithic agreement. That’s not how it
works in today’s politics. So like, a good example is we covered the parental
rights bill that Congress passed on, you know, last week, but we covered it, I
think, on Wednesday, or Thursday. And there were five Republicans in the House
who voted against this bill, including one Republican co sponsored the initial
bill, and then voted against it after it was amended. So I included an opinion
piece from you know, one of the conservative representatives who wrote about
why he oppose the legislation because even though most conservatives by support
it, I think it’s important to include like the the kind of SEC that was pushing
back against it. The vast majority of my work is research. And then oftentimes,
I’ll run into some stuff that’s just I don’t understand, you know, there are
blanks that need to be filled in. And that’s when I kind of tap the resources
that I have, you know, the sources have developed over years of reporting, so
I’ll send a few emails or text some people I know who are like experts in a
space or maybe write an email to a staffer who’s on like a congressman scene
and say, like, Hey, Am I understanding like, this is the position you guys
because I don’t want to publish this and be wrong about what your position is.
It’s, it’s I mean, that’s journalism, like it’s a little bit of like my old
school reporting skill. But I’m coming much more in like a friendly like, Hey, we’re
publishing and saying I want to make sure I have, like, I’m clear on what the
the opinion is here. So, you know, a good example of that is like, I have a
friend who runs a magazine that’s all about oil in Iraq. So when the energy
crisis was happening, because of the Russia, Ukraine war, it’s like, Oh, I
know, somebody who’s like an expert on the oil situation in the Middle East,
and how that impacts Russia and Ukraine, whatever. And Russia is obviously
moving a lot of that oil. So I would email him and text him and ask him
questions. And he always has, like, really insightful answers about what the
industry view is on this particular issue. And then it’s pretty much a scramble
to make all of that into like a coherent newsletter. It’s the last few hours or
like a huge push of just writing and editing that goes into the newsletter. So
I’m pretty much working on deadline, like every morning, which I’m comfortable
that’s like how I came up with doing deadline reporting, but that the the
research part really is the biggest chunk of time. And my the writing part is
like what I’m really good at doing really fast. That’s kind of like my, my 99.
So I know I got four hours left on the clock, and we have like, 500 words of a
4000 word newsletter, like I need to start hauling ass and getting this thing
out. So that’s typically how like the last few hours of my morning are spent
before the newsletter goes out.

Adam Casey
Yeah, two questions. First, how much coffee do you drink? And second, how do
you handle the stress of being under a daily deadline like that?

Isaac Saul
Yeah, I drink a lot of coffee. When I met my current wife, I did not drink any
coffee. She introduced me to coffee when we were dating absolutely changed my
wife. Now I’m like a four cup of Dade guy. So I need it, it definitely helps me
at like two or three o’clock, I go get my last Coffee of the day before I
crash. Stress wise, I have not always been good at handling it to be totally
frank. I you know, I’ve actually written about this in the newsletter, it took
me a really long time, probably like two years of doing this, to realize that I
was like not managing it well. Both, like wasn’t getting myself enough sleep
wasn’t taking enough space away from screen time whenever I had like, heart palpitations, and like eye twitches. And I mean, I was like, you know, I was totally overrun
with information. And when I first started the newsletter, I was working
another full time job. So you know, I was doing like 15 or 16 hour days of just
work on the computer like hard work. And now I have a few like best practices
that I go into the day with. So in the mornings, I try and make sure like the
first thing I read is not on a screen. So when I wake up in the morning, I’ll
like pull up a book off the shelf and just like read a couple pages to just be
nice to my eyes. I’m not like I try and avoid my screens early on in the day.
And then at the end of the day at like six o’clock, I have a super hard stop
where it’s like it doesn’t matter where I am at 6pm I’m gonna close my computer
and shut it down for the day because that’s 12 hours for me I’ll start working
at six and I’m like when I hit the 12 hour mark it’s like if I couldn’t get it
done in 12 hours like it’s it’s uh you know, I just like and I every now and
then we’ll break that rule but I try and be really good about not doing that
and then a lot of a lot of exercise and trying to make sure I get my seven or
eight hours of sleep every night which I’m I’m really strict about I’m I’m in
bed reading at you know 930 And hoping to be asleep by 10 and waking up at 530
or whatever the next day so it’s taken me a while to sort of get that
discipline but now that I have it I definitely feel the positive impacts of it
like a lot of that health stuff I’ve was talking about I’ve gotten past and
it’s certainly I still feel like I’m in kind of high stress work but I manage
it way better than I used to now for sure that’s good

Adam Casey
yeah, I mentioned to you before we hit record recording that I used to be in
the Marines and when I got out i i wore as like a badge of honor the lack of
sleep that I would be getting. Oh two hours asleep like yeah, that means I’m
really doing like well in life and just along the read of getting a good
night’s sleep now I cherish my sleep. I mean I I look for any opportunity to go
to bed early. If anything more just because I’m a I’m a runner and I like to
get up Ready to go run? But yeah, it’s, it can be hard sometimes, especially
when you find something that’s so motivating for you, I would imagine you just
like you said, Your laptop is your key your gateway to the world to your work.
And so how hard is it to actually, you know, in the evening, close your laptop
when they come when that six o’clock deadline is, is it? Is it easier more
often than not? Or is it something where you find yourself fighting to do?

Isaac Saul
It’s definitely hard. I mean, there’s always a list of stuff that I could, you
know, like, put in another hour and know that I’m going to be ahead and the
next day will be easier. It’s especially hard when like a former president gets
indicted and the news breaks at 6:30pm. And I’m like, god dammit, like, I have
to deal with this. You know, that literally last night, I was closing my
computer. The New York Times story broke at like, you know, 545, I was lucky
enough to make a six o’clock dinner with my wife. And I went downstairs and
like, you know, I’m like, Holy shit, they just indicted Trump. And she’s just
like, put your phone away. I’m just like, but they just indicted Trump, like, I
need to read about this for the next 10 hours, you know, like, so it’s, it’s
hard, man, it’s, it can be really hard. But I’m always better for it. I mean,
it’s, you know, it’s, I’ve learned that first of all, the news is always going to
be there in the morning, you know. And I, I’m not a breaking news outlet. So
even though I end up working out on working on deadline every day, it’s like,
the newsletter goes out at noon Eastern every day. So I don’t have anything to
do until I don’t need to go out at 12. And also, the most mistakes are always
made in that first hour, when a big story like that breaks. And I benefit a lot
from being sort of on the slow news. Like I don’t have to say anything for the
first hour. And I let everybody else come out with their smokin hot takes and
make themselves look silly. And then I kind of come in a little bit later, you
know, 1224 hours later, and then I can sort of offer a perspective after seeing
like the whole, I guess, holistic look at what the actual takes and the
responses and the news is and yeah, I think that benefits my work and certainly
benefits my writing. And it’s a good excuse to just like not throw myself into
it right away. Yeah, the

Adam Casey
what I was going to, is going to bring up just that taking that tactical pause
before writing, you know, a hot tweet or filling in that newsletter probably
serves a little bit of a benefit. Because yeah, there’s so much especially when
it’s instance sensationalized story, I mean, less so maybe about the Trump
indictment, but we you know, unfortunately, a good example is usually like a
school shooting, or any type of shooting, and there’s random bits of
information coming out about the shooter, it’s like, you know, at least I
personally, if I’m even going to read anything about it, because unfortunately,
we’ve gotten to that point where those things are so common now that it’s just,
it’s that, you know, I’ll just let that explain itself. But usually, if I’m
going to read something about it, I won’t read anything for at least three or
four days until the waves start to settle, because I know that there’s so much
that’s being reported on that, you know, majority of it probably is going to
turn out to be untrue. Um, where do you get your work ethic from?

Isaac Saul
That’s a good question. I think. I mean, first of all, I am like a was for a
very long time, a super competitive athlete, played Ultimate Frisbee growing
up, and lacrosse and ultimate was always my sport. I know, for people who are
unfamiliar, it might just sound like a bunch of hippies in the park with the
dog. But, you know, I played really competitively in high school, college and
semi professionally as an adult, College National Championship state champion
in high school. It was basically my life. And it’s a really difficult sport,
big endurance sport, lots of running lots of training. And I think like, that
definitely had a huge impact on me from from a discipline perspective. I also
just think, like, a lot of the really important people in my life, who I care a
lot about, have shown me that, you know, having a really clear purpose and
like, a goal every day is a really fulfilling way to live. And, you know, I’ve
had jobs that I didn’t work super hard at because I didn’t care that much about
the work. You know, I was fortunate that as a journalist and a writer, I did
when I got out of school, I got some jobs that I really liked, and I got to
work in some places where I was really interested in the things we were doing,
but you know, like I mentioned the The company I was at before tangle. The last
year or so I was there, we were doing all this video stuff. And I was there a
days I was kind of dog in it. And a lot of times I was dogging it to try and
tinker with my own ideas, my own projects and like building this off ramp for
myself, but I definitely wasn’t giving, you know, my full 100% at the end. So I
know what it’s like to not do that. And it sucks. Like it’s not a to me. For me
personally, like, I don’t get anything out of that it’s not a good feeling. For
me, I really love the end of the day, like the feeling of being spent and like
I did a bunch and I was really productive. And it’s not just when I’m you know,
writing Tango or working on a project like that it’s you know, there are days
where I go out back and work in the garden or something. And I spend a whole
day trying to build a garden bed and fill it up with soil and I’m going to the
store and getting seeds and doing stuff like that. And it’s like that, like
doing that and feeling like I finished something at the end of the day allows
me to kind of relax, I think. So I like that part of it. Like I like how that
feels. And I don’t know, I don’t know what else to do with my time we’re here
we’ve got one of these. So we might as well make the most of it, I guess.

Isaac Saul
I’m like a I’m a was for a very long time a super competitive athlete played
Ultimate Frisbee growing up and lacrosse. And ultimate was always my sport. I
know, for people who are unfamiliar, it might just sound like a bunch of
hippies in the park with the dog. But, you know, I played really competitively
in high school, college and semi professionally as an adult, College National
Championship state champion in high school, it was basically my life. And it’s a
really difficult sport, big endurance sport, lots of running lots of training.
And I think like, that definitely had a huge impact on me from from a
discipline perspective. I also just think, like, a lot of the really important
people in my life, who I care a lot about, have shown me that, you know, having
a really clear purpose, and like, a goal every day is a really fulfilling way
to live. And, you know, I’ve had jobs that I didn’t work super hard at, because
I didn’t care that much about the work. You know, I was fortunate that as a
journalist and a writer, I did when I got out of school, I got some jobs that I
really liked. And I got to work in some places where I was really interested in
the things we were doing. But you know, like I mentioned, the company I was at
before tangle. The last year or so I was there, we were doing all this video
stuff. And I was there a days I was kind of dog in it. And a lot of times I was
dogging it to try and tinker with my own ideas, my own projects, and like
building this off ramp for myself, but I definitely wasn’t giving, you know, my
full 100% at the end. So I know what it’s like to not do that. And it sucks.
Like it’s not a to me, for me personally, like, I don’t get anything out of
that it’s not a good feeling. For me, I really love the end of the day, like
the feeling of being spent and like I did a bunch and I was really productive.
And it’s not just when you know writing Tango or working on a project like that
it’s you know, there are days where I go out back and work in the garden or
something. And I spend a whole day trying to build a garden bed and fill it up
with soil and I’m going to the store and getting seeds and doing stuff like
that. And it’s like that, like doing that and feeling like I finished something
at the end of the day allows me to kind of relax, I think. So I like that part
of it. Like I like how that feels. And I don’t know, I don’t know what else to
do with my time we’re here we’ve got one of these. So we might as well make the
most of it, I guess.

Adam Casey
Do you ever use a checklist in your day to day?

Isaac Saul
Yeah, so I actually use this app called sin sama. I don’t even know how to say
it’s the I think it’s sin sama. And it’s the only it’s the only work
organization tool app that’s ever worked. For me, I don’t know why I’ve tried a
few different like monday.com and a couple places like that. This one’s just
really simple. It’s like it’s a task manager, you know, and I go in and I drop
my little tasks. And whenever I have, and I have the app on my phone, so if I’m
not at my computer, and I think I’ll have to do that. I can add it to my list
really quick. And then there’s just this really satisfying, like green
checkmark that you press it and it kind of fills up and moves the thing down
when you’re done. And it like there’s this visual element of it that I’m like,
okay, that that task is complete, I can move on to the next thing. So I wasn’t
always that organized. I struggled for a while to find something like that.
That worked well for me. But I’ve had that pride for the last year or two. And
yeah, the checklist is great. I love the feeling of crossing some stuff off the
list for sure.

Adam Casey
Yeah, that’s my that’s my go to sometimes even just a written checklists and
being able to cross something out. I mean, as we’re talking right now, the
satisfaction of like, crossing off some of these questions. Yeah, there’s
something to it. Okay. So how do you keep yourself anchored in the middle in a
lot of your reporting? And do you ever have like, the equivalent of a palate
cleanser, you know, like a sorbet in between reading news articles to kind of
keep yourself? Yes, centered in the middle.

Isaac Saul
Yeah, good question. So, interestingly, I’ll say like, first of all, I don’t
consider myself to be anchored in the middle and I’m actually not on a personal
level trying to be you know, centrist or or nonpartisan. In fact, like, I like
to be open about how I feel on certain issues. My big thing is, I just don’t
really as funny as it is because we do this left and right take. I don’t really
by like the left, right. dichotomy. I mean, I’m like, people ask me all the
time, it’s the most common question I get like, what are your What are your
views? What do you actually think? Who do you vote for? What are your I’m like,
What are we told Talking about, you know, like, give me the issue. And I’ll
tell you, I’m happy to tell you what I think about any given issue. But, you
know, I’m not going to say, Oh, I’m like left of center, oh, I’m right of
center, because then you’re going to make all these assumptions about how I
feel when that’s not really how I feel. So, you know, I guess like the North
Star for me is just that both sides have really good and really bad ideas about
different things, all of their positions are a lot more nuanced than I think
the country gives them credit for. And my promise to my readers is, I’m going
to be honest, and I’m going to be fair, and when we’re explaining the issue at
the top, like, I will be as neutral and balanced in that section as I can. And
so a lot of the times what I take my cues from those news outlets that I’m
reading, like, you know, a good example is, when I talk about COVID deaths in
the newsletter, one of the things that we do is we say, you know, over a
million people in the United States have died from or with COVID. And readers
notice, like those language shifts like that, that is a really significant
distinction to me, like, we don’t actually know that over a million people have
died from COVID, we know that a million people have been in the hospital and
tested positive for COVID and died. But a lot of them probably died of
something that wasn’t COVID. And, you know, I don’t know what that number is, I
think we’re gonna figure that out at some point. But I think most hospitals and
health agencies are still figuring that number out. And little language changes
like that, you know, if I write undocumented immigrant in the newsletter, all
my conservative readers are like, Oh, he’s a lid, that’s like the key to them.
And if I say, you know, we have illegal aliens in the newsletter, all the
liberal readers like, Oh, my God, he’s like a closet Trumper. So we say
unauthorized migrants, sort of like somewhere in the middle, you know, it’s
just like, and those kinds of language choices, I think, build trust, it takes
away like some of the stuff people can complain and fight about. And it’s a
good answer to just like, sort of carving that, that middle path. It’s not
easy. In terms of like the palate cleanser, I actually do do that. Like, I’m a
huge sports junkie. So you know, I’ll like between shifting gears, I’ll just
spend five minutes on espn.com or something. And, unfortunately, politics is
infecting everything these days. So it’s not necessarily like I’m going to
escape sports by doing that. But I do try and just like, Get up, go downstairs,
shake it out, you know, have a cup of coffee, fill my water, glass up, whatever
stretch out for a minute, take a breath, come back, you know, I work in 20 minute
increments. So I have a timer on my computer that goes off every 20 minutes,
remind me to stand up for two minutes or walk around or whatever. And that’s
usually like a good baked in break for me.

Adam Casey
Yeah, I also recommend getting a dog if you don’t have one, especially a German
Shorthaired Pointer, which is what I have. And she’s really good at
interrupting me in the most important parts of my day, to get up and go play if
I haven’t gotten her exercise. So that’s my, my little tidbit in case any of
the other tricks that you have up your sleeve don’t necessarily work out. You
know, you kind of briefly touched on this before, but one thing I would love to
know is how have you had any of your beliefs changed? Or have you had any of
your beliefs changed and your reporting? And I think one thing that you do
pretty well, and you’ve already have explained is that you’re human, you’re
gonna have implicit bias, your your first impression is going to have a bias to
it. But is, is there any story or anything that comes to mind where you know
that you unintentionally intentionally went into researching it with that
little part of your brain saying, Oh, I bet you you know, just like thinking
you were going down one way, but by the time you were done reporting on it,
you’re like, wow, that actually didn’t turn out the way that I thought it was
going to.

Isaac Saul
Yeah, actually, it’s funny you asked that question, because that’s one of my
favorite questions to ask other people and my readers is, I’ll often say like,
when was the last time you change your mind about a political issue? And most
people usually can’t think of an instance where they’ve done that. And I say,
like, do you see the problem with that? Like, do you think that you’re right
about everything? Because if you are, you know, have enough humility to say
you’re probably not right about anything, then the only reason you wouldn’t
have ever changed your mind about something is because you’re not getting your
views challenged at all. So I love that question. I haven’t seen it all the
time. And interestingly enough, it’s happening to me more and more. The more
that I do tango, like I think I’m getting better at being open minded and like
letting go of my priors. Going into stuff because I’m flexing that muscle so
much doing the work of the newsletter, I think it’s sort of increasing in
frequency where like, I’m more open minded now than I’ve ever really been on on
issues like that. on political issues specifically. So I’ve two things tend to
happen. One is either like, my view gets more partisan, because I’ve read all
the arguments, and I’m like, Oh, wait, that, like the actual size of their
argument is, like, even worse than I thought it was, or whatever, you know, I
actually just wrote a piece recently about what I call my most extreme
political view, which is that I’ve pretty staunch anti prison views. You know,
I think today that’s very much associated with like the progressive left, I
think, you know, 30, or 40 years ago was much more of like a kind of
libertarian, small government type view to have, I don’t really care where it
puts me, but like, I fundamentally think that prisons are inhumane, I think,
like locking people in cages is doesn’t work doesn’t rehabilitate them doesn’t
help them. It’s probably increasing crime based on the data that we have. So I
wrote a huge piece, just like, here’s my most extreme political view, you know,
whatever. And I got there by being kind of moderately, quote, unquote, left on
that issue or like, moderately, like, we need prison reform and then reading
more and more about the arguments against it. And realizing they were like,
totally unconvincing to me. I think like, I, one issue that I have really
changed my mind on recently, maybe not so much changed my mind on is had a
change of perspective about how important it was, is like I’ve become a pretty
staunch free speech kind of absolutist and feel myself way more aligned, I
guess now with like, what the modern conservative position tends to be at least
what they say their position is, I don’t think they always practice it as well
as they should. But, you know, I used to five years ago, I thought that
concerns about free speech and speech on campus and stuff. I thought they were
kind of overblown. And I don’t feel that way anymore. I think that like we
actually do have like a cultural free speech deficit. A lot of people like to
say, Oh, well, it’s the government’s not infringing on your speech. And so it’s
not a free speech violation. And it’s like, yeah, that’s technically true. But
historically, you know, the, the thing that precedes the government, infringing
on people’s free speech rights is that there’s like an erosion of cultural
value of free speech. And I think we’re in that erosion right now. I think people
view it as a less and less important, right, and something that’s less and less
important to preserve. And that really scares me. And I feel very aligned with
like a lot of the rhetoric and the views from, you know, the kind of like,
bombastic Republicans that are out there on this issue, who are sort of
screaming from the rooftops that it’s a big deal. So yeah, those are like two
that comes to mind. But it happens all the time in the newsletter, that I will
go in thinking I feel one way about it. And then I’ll read one or two pieces
that just like really hit me in the gut. And I’m like, Oh, this is actually,
like, this is the best argument, I think, and I sort of have to amend or change
my position to kind of address that.

Adam Casey
One example, personally, that comes to mind was just the most recent I think it
was a governor of Arkansas, Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed the chuck, a child
labor law that removed a it definitely correct me where I’m wrong on this, but
she signed something into law that removed a step in the process of an underage
miner getting approved for work in the state of Arkansas. And the example is
not that I went into it with this. Oh, like, Sarah Huckabee Sanders used to be
Trump’s, you know, press chief, you know, she used to be involved in the Trump
administration. So this is clearly got to be wrong. It’s clearly SB like 1930s
1920s You know, meatpacking industry, kind of child labor law violation. But by
the end of listening to your episode, in hearing your take on it, it was just
like, No, this is just removing one out of many, many bureaucratic steps for a,
you know, 16 year old to go get a job washing dishes at a restaurant down, you
know, wherever they live, and, and I really appreciated that because again,
like, again, that didn’t go into it with his hardcore mentality that it was
automatically wrong, but I recognize where my bias was when I had first heard
about the story elsewhere. And I think yeah, you just do a really good job and
I think that your My take portion really is important because yeah, we all like
to think that we’re independent thinkers, but sometimes, you know, you’re
you’re a pro, you know, I’m not, you know, like, I’m a DIY guy, there are some
things that I tried to do on my own. But there are some things where it’s like,
Nope, I need a pro for this. Like, if I’m gonna, you know, be replacing breaks
in my car, like, if I’m not 100% confident, I should probably take it to a pro
before I do it myself and take it on the highway.

Isaac Saul
Yeah, no, 100%. That’s cool to hear about that specific article. I also, you
know, I was skeptical of some of the headlines that I was seeing about the
article. But the news, it was like way over cover a covered and the saturation
of the coverage was all in the left leaning media about that law. So all the
initial headlines I saw were all about like, oh, like Republicans are making it
easier to like, send kids back to the coal mines, or whatever it was all like
the child labor stuff. So when I actually read the bill, I had like a similar
reaction of being like, Oh, this is like not really a big deal at all. And
also, it’s probably good if kids more like teenager working like teenagers are
such punks right now. So like, you know, that I sort of had that kind of like,
emoji old man reaction to it. But that’s, that’s cool to hear that you sort of
went through that process? I mean, I think, really, interestingly, I’ve gotten
to hear from a lot of readers who do have that experience reading the newsletter,
which is super rewarding for me. Yeah,

Adam Casey
yeah. And, you know, I know, we’re on a tight schedule. And I have one more
question. But I don’t want to leave this without saying it. Not only is what
the work that you’re doing, helpful for a person like me, who likes to think
they’re independent and wants to, you know, just read the news for what it is
and not hear too much of a slant to it. But I personally, my dad and I, we love
each other, but we’re on pretty opposite sides of the spectrum, political
spectrum. And it’s really hard to engage in political topics with him. But that
is something that he finds he he is interested in. And I’ve actually, over the
last month or so been able to engage with him more in a much more civil way because
of your work. And it’s, you know, there’s been, there’s been a little bit of a
little bit of like psychology tricks in there, where I, the one of your first
stories that I introduced to him, definitely fell in his camp of support, but
then I was able to follow up with something that fell in my camp. So it was
like, basically, I hooked him in to say that the work that you do is, you know,
fair and balanced that, hey, you don’t need to use the Fox News tagline. But
the work that you do is fair reporting, and then like him with like, a
curveball and then like, but then he also supports this other thing about gun
reform or something. And so I just want to make sure that that’s, you know, the
that you, at least from one person out there, the work that you’re doing is
hits on a much more personal level. And I want to say thank you to that. But
coming to a close. What is the goal of tangle? You know, it started out as a
newsletter, and it started out as your own personal project. And now, you know,
it’s developed into a team of people that do this, but what yeah, what is the
goal? If I, if I gave you a call 10 years from now? What would you like to
obscene tangle involve evolve into?

Isaac Saul
Yeah, I mean, look, first of all, thank you for the comments about your dad, in
your experience I wanted the most unexpected things that has happened to me is
that I’ve heard a version of that story from many readers and listeners who
have said that they felt like Tango was building some kind of bridge between
them and like a family member, or spouse or whatever, where they were both
reading the newsletter, and they could talk about and have a good jumping off
point, which has been hugely rewarding for me. And I like that’s such a cool
story to hear that you’ve been able to do that I think your strategy on hooking
him was very smart.

Adam Casey
I hope

Isaac Saul
that, you know, in 10 years, we are a small, well paid team with a massive
audience. I mean, I think that to me, is like the really, that’s the really big
goal that I have. I don’t I don’t want to be the next like CNN or Wall Street
Journal or whatever. I’m not trying to turn into like a massive 2000 person
media organization. I want their audience though. Like, I want to take the ears
and the listeners and the viewers that they have. And you know, my dream world
would be across these platforms, you know, the newsletter, the website, the
podcasts, we’re launching a YouTube channel in April, that, you know, we can
get millions of people consuming our content in any given day, and that that
reach sort of turns the temperature down a little bit and also creates a more
informed populace. I mean, what would be really cool for me is like to have a
big audience that’s waiting to see how we cover a story. worry, in order to
feel like they really understand what’s happening out there and having so many
Americans who are doing that, and people across the globe, I mean, we have
readers in over 50 countries outside the US, which is really cool. So, you
know, my Yeah, my dream is really just to scale the audience, from, you know,
the 60,000 newsletter subscribers, we have to many millions, that would be the
dream for me. Because I just think like, you know, I think it’s good for
people. I think the content is genuinely good for people’s brains. I think it
makes them more empathetic about people that disagree with it allows them to be
more informed about an issue. It sets up a scenario where they better
understand folks that they’ve been, like, programmed to hate. And I think that
we are in a time where that’s really needed right now. So yeah, I would say
that that’s my goal, build this team out a little bit more get a little bit
bigger, but I want to be a lean machine and just really scale the audience.
That’s going to be a big focus for us. Awesome.

Adam Casey
Well, Isaac, it is been this has been one of the most enjoyable conversations
I’ve had in a while. And who would have thought it would have been about
politics, but I’ve really, I’ve really, I really have enjoyed it. For everyone.
Anyone out there? How would you encourage people to to engage with you in your
work?

Isaac Saul
Yeah, please, the best thing to do is just to go to readtangle.com. And right
when you go to read untangle.com, you’ll get hit with a little overlay to drop
your email in there. And you can subscribe for free, we offer 80% of our
content for free and the newsletter The Monday through Thursday, newsletters
totally free. And then we have Friday editions that are paywalled. So you know,
sign up for free, see if you like it or sign up for free and subscribe just to
support it because you like the mission. And once you’re in on the newsletter,
everything kind of flows out from there. That’s still our core product. So you’ll
get links to the podcasts and get information about the YouTube channel coming
up and you’ll fall into the website organically. But please, yes, read
tangled.com Check it out, subscribe and spread the word if you enjoy it.

Adam Casey
Well, Isaac, thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure and I hope
to talk to you again soon.

Isaac Saul
Thank you, Adam. I appreciate the time and thanks for having me on.

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“Some of the most meaningful… some of the most emotional things I’ve experienced as an RD [Hardrock Run Director] has been standing at the finish line and what kissing that rock means to people.”

Welcome everyone to the It Matters To Me Podcast, a show that seeks out the passions in all of our lives and the motivations behind why we pursue them.

With me on this episode is Dale Garland, Race Director for the one and only Hardrock Endurance Run.

First held in 1992, this 100-mile race icon of the ultra-running community celebrates the legacies of the Hardrock miners that used to live in and around the town of Silverton, Colorado.

After serving in the Army just after high school, Dale became the race director and makes it a priority to maintain its goal of celebrating every single person who participates, whether they come in first place or dead last.

One thing I kept harping on in our talk was just the shared sense of community you feel even if you’re only at Hardrock to watch other people run.

And it’s absolutely true because, for me, I’ll always remember my first Hardrock experience back in 2021 and how everyone was treated with a genuine welcoming attitude.

Like every episode that features running in some way, I try to steer away from the usual talking points of training plans, nutrition, and god forbid I use the word “bonk”.

Thankfully that’s still true for this one and I hope makes it something any non-runner can listen to and enjoy.

Alright, let’s get to it, here’s my talk with Dale Garland

Additional Links

Hardrock Endurance Run (Website):

https://www.hardrock100.com/

Hardrock Endurance Run (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/hardrock100run/

It Matters To Me (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

Kissing The Rock (Film by Matt Trappe):

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“When we’re able to step into the shoes of that person who’s struggling, people start to open their minds about what their willing to allow to be an ok answer to helping those people and I think psychedelic healing is really starting to jump into that lane and into the driver seat.”

With me on this episode is Sam Chapman, Executive Director for the nonprofit organization, Healing Advocacy Fund.

With over a decade of experience in advocating for progressive drug policy reforms at the local, state, and national level, Sam co-authored House Bill 3460 in 2013 that legalized medical marijuana dispensaries.

More recently, he’s served as the Campaign Manager for Measure 109 in Oregon, the law that legalized the first ever psilocybin therapy program in the United States.

We talk about how his upbringing in Oregon helped pave the way in his fight for psychedelic therapies to become publicly available and how Oregon is setting the standard for other states to follow in their legislative footsteps.

We also get into where the future of legal psychedelic therapies can go and why it’s important to learn from the mistakes over the past decade in legalizing cannabis sales.

Full of great insights into how the tools we use to support mental health are starting to evolve, our conversation really hits home and is one I hope you’ll enjoy.

Additional Links:

Healing Advocacy Fund (Website):

https://healingadvocacyfund.org/

Healing Advocacy Fund (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/healingadvocacyfund/

It Matters To Me (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

Oregon Measure 109:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_109

Colorado Prop 122:

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/11/08/colorado-results-prop-122-legalizing-psilocybin-psilocin-mushrooms/

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“The people that you share the experience with and the land that you are traversing are really the two most important things and how they make you feel.”

Today, my guest is Rickey Gates, professional runner and writer whose most recent book, Cross Country, is a first-hand account of his 2017 journey across the United States on foot.

Rickey’s career has always stood out to me not just because of his physical accomplishments but more due to his ability to bring a different, experiential side to running.

His relationship with the sport has evolved over the years and with that has come a sincere wish to help others experience running that doesn’t involve setting course records or finish line medals.

For years now, Rickey has put together guided running trips that include, Hut-Run-Hut, which is a six-day, one-hundred-mile, Aspen-to-Vail mountain running adventure with a priority of fun over fast.

If you’ve heard any of the other episodes with professional runners, you know I try to stay away from any sort of dialogue around training regiments or race-day nutrition because I believe that running can be so much more than a competition against a clock.

And true to form, this was a conversation focused more on the personal growth a runner goes through over their career and less about the stats behind their name.

Additional Links:

Rickey Gates (Website): http://www.rickeygates.com/

Rickey Gates (Instragram): https://www.instagram.com/rickeygates/?hl=en

It Matters To Me (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

Bus Run Bus: http://busrunbus.com/ Santa Fe Fastpack: http://www.rickeygates.com/santa-fe-fastpack Hut Run Hut: http://hutrunhut.com/ A

Walk Across America: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/122781.A_Walk_Across_America

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“We’re going to pay for you to go to mortuary school so you can be a licensed funeral director in the state of Oklahoma”

Welcome everyone to the It Matters To Me Podcast, a show that celebrates the random through 1-on-1 conversations with people and the passions they pursue.

Today, my guest is Rick Farbro, founder of Green Country Arbor Services in Tulsa Oklahoma, and just an authentic and hilarious human being.

Now a little bit of background before you listen is that Rick and I had the most stereotypical of meetings between two men in their thirties when we struck up a conversation at a locally owned gym in Colorado.

Rick is so personable and socially magnetic that even though we just met less than a month ago, I’ve already spent the night at Rick’s house in Tulsa when I was recently driving through.

Even further proof of just how genuine Rick is is that he’s able to run his tree services business without any digital footprint whatsoever and instead operates by simple word of mouth.

You’ll soon find out that Rick can spin quite the storytelling yarn and I just loved every second of it.

This conversation is pretty raw in that I am publishing it without much editing because I think it is a beautiful example of how it’s possible to still in fact make new friends as you get older.

I know I’m not alone in admitting that I very much feel more isolated and alone these days so meeting Rick couldn’t have come at a better time in my life.

So next time you’re out and around strangers, go ahead and spark up a conversation and hopefully you’ll make a new friend out of it too.

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“To hear that there were people out there that were willing to help me out and willing to take care of me and give me everything that I needed to try and get better, that was life changing.”

Welcome everyone to the It Matters To Me Podcast, a show that celebrates the random through 1-on-1 conversations with people and the passions they pursue.

Today, my guest is Zach Riggle, former U.S. Marine Special Operator and now the COO for the Heroic Hearts Project.

Their mission is to build a healing community that helps veterans suffering from military trauma recover and thrive by providing them with safe, supervised access to psychedelic treatments, professional coaching, and ongoing peer support.

After Zach’s eleven years and four combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, Zach separated from the military and attended MIT as a Sloan Fellow for Innovation and Global Leadership.

And while you might think this is going to be a story of one success after another with a background like that, you’d be wrong.

No, this is a conversation about Zach’s own experience with PTSD and the deeply personal effect it had on him both mentally and physically.

And how after a fortunate encounter with a fellow Marine Raider when he seemed to be at his lowest led Zach to an Ayahuasca retreat in Pero that was sponsored by the Heroic Hearts Project.

With the stigma around plant-based medicines seemingly shifting across the nation as more and more stories like Zach’s are told and backed up with solid scientific research, our talk couldn’t be more relevant.

It’s one I truly treasured and once you listen to it I think you’ll understand why.

Additional Links

Heroic Hearts Project (website):

https://www.heroicheartsproject.org/

Heroic Hearts Project (Twitter):

Tweets by WeHeroicHeartsHeroic Hearts Project (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/heroicheartsproject/Marine Raider Foundation: https://marineraiderfoundation.org/

The Body Keeps The Score:

https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/resources/the-body-keeps-the-score

It Matters To Me (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

It Matters To Me (Website):

Home

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“I told him, like, when I saw Everest, I said ‘Oh it doesn’t look so high!’”

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“As a columnist, there aren’t a lot of people telling me what to do.”

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“What I really found out was that privateering, which very few people know about, during the American Revolution, was incredibly important in winning the war.”

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“Guardian Grange is my vision to reintegrate and reinspire veterans with the purpose of healing through doing work in nature and building communities.”

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“Often exhaustion and burnout is not our fault, often it really is our working environments that are making us ill.”

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“People respond to being listened to and being perceived that you’ve treated them fairly” Welcome everyone and thanks for tuning in to episode 37 of the It Matters To Me Podcast, a show that celebrates the random through 1-on-1 conversations with people and the passions they pursue."

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“I remember the first time I got electrocuted”

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“If you’re not vested in the mission; if you’re not trusting your leadership, personally, like do they care about you and if you’re not having fun, you know it’s time to go”

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“I let the ants do my dishes the last two years of my bike trip”

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“It was just unthinkable to me that kids were passing their lives this way and that it was ok and accepted”

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It’s about how you tell a story and I became deeply interested in that.”

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“It’s kind of ridiculous from a business perspective the things comedians will do.”

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“I’m going to set a 10-year goal … to go from 70-years old to 80-years young.”

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"I’s really universal where people can come sit down, watch a film, whether it has subtitles or not, and really just have an emotional response to that film.”

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“The beautiful moment happens when you parse the person from the company that they represent on the other side of the call.”

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"I think the dogs can feel when you're happy, a lot, and what energy you give them back."

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Through a lot of my life, I've always gone against the grain. Whether that's through skydiving or ultra-running or ditching a very comfortable federal career."

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“Don’t dwell on that you don’t have it, just figure out how you’re going to come up with it."

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you have to have the courage to face down those things within you.”

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“That is the crux of being a human being, that we see each other in a way that we recognize where some folks have and some folks have not and how can I get the things they don’t have to them to give them an opportunity.”

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I started to like running more than I liked being at the bar, and it’s really one or the other with that.”

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“Libraries are all about sharing … well that’s our DNA. That’s what we do is share so we’re going to share with you too.”

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With over 80 people sometimes coming to a single meeting, #WEOFFTHECOUCH has become very well known for being a place where people from all different backgrounds and different levels of fitness can meet.

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“There’s always something you can do and there’s always a way to a part of the solution. And all we can do is make the changes ourselves and keep moving forward step by step.”

Mehgan Heaney-Grier is a marine educator, ocean explorer, former world champion free-diver, co-host of the deeper blue podcast, and founder of the imperfect conservationist web series.

Growing up in Duluth, Minnesota and eventually moving down the Florida Keys, Mehgan took the ocean at a very young age where she grew to become a self-acclaimed “biology nerd”.

That passion for the outdoors led her into the sport of free-diving where she established the first U.S. free dive record for men and women in the constant weight category to a depth of 155ft at just 19 years old.

Throughout her eclectic water-based career, Mehgan has performed underwater stunts for Hollywood films such as: Pirates of the Caribbean and Into the Blue; and has been featured in numerous television shows and publications worldwide such as: Life, People, and Outside Magazine. Recruited by Discovery Channel, Mehgan was part of an elite team of explorers and starred in their original series, Treasure Quest: Snake Island.

From those substantial milestones, Mehgan started the YouTube channel for The Imperfect Conservationist as a resource-packed tool bringing the viewer a dose of what she likes to call “conservation empowerment.”

Mehgan builds her messaging surrounding that trademark concept and describes it as “an understanding of how and what you can do to make a positive impact on the world around you, right now!”

Far from being a voice that just points out all the things we’re doing wrong when it comes to conservation, Mehgan offers up actionable advice, like turning your car off instead of letting it idle, that couldn’t be easier to incorporate into our everyday lives.

This was such a fun and genuinely proactive conversation with Mehgan and I can’t thank her enough for coming on the show.

Additional Links

Mehgan Heaney-Grier (Website):

About Mehgan

Mehgan Heaney-Grier (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/mehganheaneygrier/

The Imperfect Conservationist (YouTube):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC47-FlTvef6MmZm6W68-gGw

It Matters To Me Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

It Matters To Me Website:

Home

Deeper Blue Podcast:

https://podcast.deeperblue.com/

Who Gives A Crap – Toilet Paper:

https://us.whogivesacrap.org/

Clean People Products:

https://www.getcleanpeople.com/

Bites Toothpaste:

https://bitetoothpastebits.com/

Brightly Eco (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/brightly.eco/

How To Save a Planet (Podcast):

https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet

Environmental Report Card (website):

https://www.politicalreportcards.com/our-environments-reality/

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“For those of us that are sincere about bringing about diversity and inclusion, we have to show something different.”

Welcome to episode 18 of the It Matters To Me Podcast! I’m your host, Adam Casey, and today we’re going all-in with a conversation about race and minority participation in hunting with my guest, Eric Morris.

Raised in Talladega, Alabama, Eric was steeped in the outdoors and hunting from an early age.

Teaching himself to hunt through word of mouth and even magazine articles, his introduction to the sport didn’t follow the typical path of generational knowledge being passed down between father and son.

As he got older and gained more experience, he turned that expertise into the N.onT.ypical Outdoorsman TV show to help recruit others, especially minorities, into the sport. Now about to enter its third season, Eric and I talk about what it was like to get that program off the ground and why it is so important to show that not every hunter is going to fit the cliché description most of us usually think of when we hear the term “hunter” or “outdoorsman”.

Eric is also a 3-time combat veteran of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and we talk a little bit about how he uses the lessons he learned from that part of his life both on a hunt and growing his brand.

Eric’s dedication to increasing racial diversity in hunting is something I really admire, and I very much identify with his approach to directly addressing the issue.

Now, this podcast is by no means my excuse for not doing more on topics like racial equity but it is something I can control and I’m so thankful Eric was able to come on the show. He’s yet another great dude with an inspiring mission that is absolutely worth sharing.

Additional Links

N.onT.ypical Outdoorsman Website:

https://nontypicaloutdoorsman.com/

It Matters To Me Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

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Welcome everyone to episode 17 of the It Matters To Me Podcast!

Colorado Parks and Wildlife is a nationally recognized leader in conservation, outdoor recreation, and wildlife management. The agency manages 41​ state parks, more than 350 state wildlife areas, and a host of recreational programs. Reaping the benefits of their work as much as I do, I thought it’d make for a great episode to talk to someone from CPW and I was absolutely right!

My guest today is Carlee Koutnik, Deputy Director at CPW and to call her an outdoors enthusiast would be a vast understatement.

Growing up in La Veta Colorado where she was exposed to hunting and finishing since her early childhood and instilled with a deep sense of respect for the natural world just outside her front door.

She turned that personal admiration into something more tangible by earning her Bachelor’s degree from the United States Air Force Academy and becoming a Bio-Environmental Engineer. While in uniform, she was stationed across the U.S. from the panhandle of Florida all the way up to North Pole, Alaska where she specialized in occupational and environmental health management, sexual assault victim advocacy.

During our talk, we get into all topics related to the outdoors, from hunting and fishing to how CPW is looking to increase local engagement with the outdoors among people who live in those areas.

It was a huge honor to have Carlee on the show and I can’t thank her enough for the truly great conversation we had.

Additional Links

CPW Website:

https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus

Regional Partnership Initiatives:

https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/Regional-Partnerships-Initiative.aspx

CPW Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/coparkswildlife/

It Matters To Me Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

It Matters To Me Website:

Home

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“Learning to write through lived experiences.”

My guest today is the one and only Matthew Norman. Author of “Domestic Violets”, “We’re All Damaged”, “Last Couple Standing”, and his newest release “All Together Now”.

You know what’s really hard, trying to sound articulate and poignant to someone who makes their living crafting concise but impactful stories, but Matthew couldn’t have been more fun to talk to.

We hit all sorts of topics that cover his progression as an author over the years and what it’s been like to learn how to write through lived experiences.

Often compared to other great authors like Jonathan Tropper or Richard Russo, Matthew has made a name for himself in the literary world that has stood the test of time.

In fact, my introduction to him came years ago when he signed a copy of one of his books as a gift after I just cold emailed him out of the blue.

Matthew couldn’t be a more likeable person and I was so truly honored to have him on the show. I highly highly highly recommend you pick up all of his books because they’re just so comedic and meaningful.

Additional Links

The Norman Nation (Main Website):

https://thenormannation.blogspot.com/

Matthew Norman (Twitter):

https://twitter.com/TheNormanNation?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Matthew Norman (Instagram):

https://www.instagram.com/thenormannation/?hl=en

Domestic Violets:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10790819-domestic-violets

We’re All Damaged:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28959148-we-re-all-damaged

Last Couple Standing:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41781197-last-couple-standing

All Together Now:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55777116-all-together-now

It Matters To Me Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/

It Matters To Me Website:

Home

Richard Russo quote:

If you work at comedy too laboriously, you can kill what’s funny in the joke.

Pet Sematary (by Stephen King):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33124137-pet-sematary

Statistics about Male and Female readers:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229

ASMR (autonomous sensory meridian response):

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/15/8965393/asmr-video-youtube-autonomous-sensory-meridian-response