The Story Copywriter Podcast: Recent Episodes
Rob Drummond
In this series we're exploring several templates from my LinkedIn Conversation Ad Template Pack. The '2-Step Template' uses the 'conversation' aspect to create a chat bot type interaction with a new potential client. This ad format uses multiple messages to attract the attention of your ideal client, then funnel them down the most relevant path.
This ad format leans on Robert Cialdini's idea of consistency, where once a prospect has said 'yes' once, they're more likely to say 'yes' again. Listen in now as I discuss:
- Why the short first message needs to scratch at the problem you solve - at a deep emotional level
- What to put in your second message
- The 'dilemma' variation: a way of letting people self-select which problem they want to solve
The 2-Step format isn't my go-to conversation ad format, but it's a useful tool to have in your LinkedIn Ads toolbelt.
Note: the Robert Cialdini book mentioned in the podcast is called Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion.
In this series we're exploring several templates from my LinkedIn Conversation Ad Template Pack. If things can go terribly wrong for your clients, especially if they make poor choices, then the prediction or warning is a good template to start with.
The prediction or warning is essentially a story of change. You open your message by making a prediction that taps into a conversation already happening in your ideal client's head. On this episode I discuss:
- How to shine the 'laser pen' of insight onto a specific thing they may have missed
- Why to make your prediction or warning quantifiable
- How including caveats can increase the relevance of your warning
This episode references the Tragedy plot, which you may also want to revisit.
In this series we're exploring several templates from my LinkedIn Conversation Ad Template Pack. If you work in an industry not generally considered 'marketing savvy', then the Confession Template may be a good starting point.
The confession is a specific structural template designed to evoke curiosity and encourage ideal clients to subscribe to your list. On this episode I discuss:
- Why relevance matters, both in terms of your targeting and the confession you are making
- Why your confession must be based on little-known insider knowledge
- How to boost your results by including social proof in your ad
In this series we're exploring several templates from my LinkedIn Conversation Ad Template Pack. If you have several 'signature success stories', then the results-led template may be an effective way to capture the attention of your ideal client.
The results-led approach is perhaps the most direct 'hook' you can use in your conversation ad. In effect you are saying, "for a client just like you, facing the same problem you face, we delivered X result. Here's how we did it..."
There is some nuance to adopting a results-led approach. On this episode I discuss:
- Why specificity (and believability) matters
- Why you MUST have a mechanism in the middle paragraph of your ad
- How to evoke and maintain curiosity with your message
In this series we're exploring several templates from my LinkedIn Conversation Ad Template Pack. If you're work is mission-driven then you may want to test the purpose-led template...
The 'purpose-led' template leads with your mission and purpose as the 'hook' of the message. In Simon Sinek's terminology, you're tapping into WHY you do what you do, rather than leading with the mechanics of the problem you solve. Your ideal client should resonate with this purpose at a deep emotional level. Listen now to learn:
- Where I've seen the 'purpose-led' approach work
- Why you need a deep level of clarity before using this template
- Why specificity matters - for both your targeting and your message
- How to sign off your message to maximise your number of leads (clue: offering a 'lead magnet' tends not to work)
Over the next few episodes I'll be exploring specific templates from my LinkedIn Ads Conversation Ad Template Pack. The first and most important template is the problem-led approach...
When you're a true expert in your field, it's desperately easy to skip or skim over the problem and write about the solution. The trouble is, clients only want to hear about the solution when they've already acknowledged they have the problem to begin with!
Additionally, we only want to hear about solutions from people we know and trust. So when you're messaging people who don't know you, leading with the problem is a much safer bet. Listen or read now to learn:
- Why the problem-led template is my 'workhorse' ad
- Why symptoms are sometimes better than problems - especially if you can name the symptom!
- How to avoid accidentally patronising the reader
- How to select problems that will get the attention of your ideal client
If you know your ideal clients are active on LinkedIn, then it makes sense to allocate an advertising budget to reach them.
At the same time, you're worried about wasting a metric ton of cash. You've heard that LinkedIn Ads can be expensive. You only want to invest a little in your ads to begin with while you prove the use case.
In this scenario, 'conversation ads' are usually my recommended ad format to begin with. Conversation ads are LinkedIn's 'sponsored message' ad format. I've seen great results this year for both myself and for clients.
This episode provides an introduction to conversation ads, including:
- What they are and why they work
- Why a 'good' conversation ad shares similar characteristics to a cold email
- How to capture the attention of your reader
- How long your ad copy should be
Some of your marketing efforts will deliver high-value, rewarding, profitable clients; and some will not. The trouble is, you usually can’t tell upfront which segments of your marketing are delivering the right leads.
If you can find out which slice of your marketing pie is delivering the right people, you can cut out the rest and focus all your resources on that segment. The right segment may have a high cost per click and a high cost per conversion, but if you’re sure they’re the right people, that doesn’t matter. Cost per click and cost per conversion are interim measures.
All that really matters is cost per qualified lead.
On this episode of the Story Selling Podcast, I provide an introduction to the sometimes complicated topic of lead tracking. Lead tracking is about knowing where every contact in your database originally came from, in order to identify your best campaigns, keywords and audiences.
Listen now as I discuss:
- What lead tracking is, and why it matters
- Why lead tracking is a matter of CRM (and not something you'll find in your ad account)
- How a cookie-based solution typically works
- How often to review for lead quality
- Why to JUST start with paid traffic sources
- The virtues of keeping it simple!
Part 2 of this mini-series on bidding and budgets examines how much to spend in the 'testing phase' of a new account, and key things to measure after you have generated a lead.
Listen now as I discuss:
- Guidance in initial testing budgets
- How quickly to scale
- Why 'Time to Money' is one of your key campaign metrics - and one you won't find in your ad account
The most frequent question I’m asked about LinkedIn ads, Google Ads, or any kind of paid ads, is “does it work?”
The answer to which, is yes. The ad network will take your money and show your ad, 100% of the time. So yes, it works.
The question behind the question is will it work for you? The answer to which depends on any number of factors: the problem you solve, the volume of people searching, the questions people ask themselves about your topic, and your ability to tap into those questions.
Over the coming weeks, we’ll explore these questions on the Story Selling Podcast. Today’s episode begins with bidding and budgets, and asks: should you let the ad network manage your bids? Because guess what – that’s the default setting!
Listen now as I discuss
- The relationship between budgets and account structure
- When to leverage automatic bidding - and when to stick to manual bids
- Why an increase in budget and conversions may not lead to more clients
Running ads to promote your own business can feel like a scary and exciting emotional rollercoaster. It's easy to get down when results don't go your way, when in fact you may be one variable away from success. (Most advertisers go big too fast, and then give up too soon).
On this episode, I explore how to nurture a detached 'Stoic' outlook to managing your ads in a persistent way. Listen now as I discuss:
- The Stoic mindset
- Persistence
- Risk (correct budget management)
Every business needs at least one source of consistent good quality leads. That source could be online or off, digital or analogue (i.e. in-person).
I've come to the assessment in recent years that EVERY business should have at least one paid advertising platform as part of your marketing approach. Even if it isn't your primary source of leads, running ads teaches you valuable lessons about your market, and incentivises you to develop robust marketing follow-up systems.
The "Big 3" players in the paid advertising space are Google, Meta and LinkedIn. On this episode, I explore how to identify the right platform for your business.
Discussion Points and Bullets:
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Importance of a Consistent Source of Leads
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Necessity of at least one reliable lead generation method.
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Examples include digital marketing, SEO, referrals, and networking.
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Aim to generate one good lead per day.
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Role of Paid Advertising in Marketing
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Paid ads provide an instant source of leads.
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Encourages attention to metrics and follow-up on leads.
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Helps in understanding market responses and refining other marketing strategies.
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Primary Paid Advertising Platforms: The Big Three
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Introduction to choosing among Google, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
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Decision-making on focusing on one primary platform for simplicity and effectiveness.
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Deep Dive into Each Platform
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Google Ads:
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Best for markets with active search behavior.
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Advantages of capturing leads with high purchase intent.
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LinkedIn Ads:
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Ideal for B2B service-based markets.
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Ability to target specific job roles and company details.
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Importance of nurturing leads over time.
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Facebook Ads (Meta):
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Recommended for B2C markets and interest-based targeting.
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Useful for reaching potential clients not currently in purchase mode.
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Selecting the Right Primary Advertising Platform
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Criteria for choosing the best platform based on business type and target market.
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Discussion of when to focus on niche markets through specific keywords on Google.
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Exploration of social media for building potential client lists in non-active buying markets.
6. Implementing and Managing Paid Advertising
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Importance of focusing on one platform to manage complexity.
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Steps to set up and optimize campaigns on the chosen platform.
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Advice on setting a testing budget for advertising experiments.
7. Long-term Strategic Planning for Lead Generation
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Continuous need for lead generation and marketing effort.
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Using paid advertising to ensure a consistent influx of new leads.
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Planning and budget management for scaling successful advertising strategies.
Podcasting is perhaps the easiest way to communicate your knowledge to the world. Most business owners find it easier to talk than to write - at least on a consistent basis! In this conversation, Rob Drummond and podcasting expert James Marriott explore the concept of 'purposeful podcasting'. If your work makes a real difference to the people you serve, then you'll want to listen to this episode! Takeaways * Having a platform, such as a podcast, is essential for communicating expertise and building trust. * Purposeful podcasting involves creating podcasts with a clear goal and target audience in mind. * Strategy and planning are crucial in podcasting to ensure effective communication and engagement. * Audio quality plays a significant role in capturing and maintaining listeners' attention. * Video podcasting requires additional considerations and resources, and may not be suitable for all podcasters. * Voice and audio communication have a unique power to resonate with and engage listeners. * Capturing and maintaining attention in a crowded media landscape is a challenge that requires compelling content and effective promotion. Creating concise content can help win in a marketplace by delivering the same message in a shorter time. * Applying the RFM principle (Recency, Frequency, Money) to podcasting can help provide value to specific listeners and increase engagement. * Releasing multiple episodes at the beginning of a podcast launch can help engage listeners and build trust. * Measuring podcast success should focus on the right audience and specific goals, rather than just the number of listeners. * Building a unique equation for success involves identifying the right audience, setting meaningful KPIs, and working towards specific outcomes. * Inviting guests on a podcast can deepen relationships and provide networking opportunities.
Chapters 00:00The Importance of Having a Platform 07:15Defining Purposeful Podcasting 11:01The Importance of Strategy in Podcasting 14:05The Role of Audio Quality in Podcasting 21:10Considerations for Video Podcasting 25:33When to Consider Hiring a Podcast Studio 29:23The Distinction Between Audio and Video Podcasting 37:11The Power of Voice and Audio Communication 40:56The Challenge of Capturing and Maintaining Attention 44:20The Power of Concise Content 45:00Applying RFM Principle to Podcasting 45:41Engaging Listeners with Multiple Episodes 46:50The Benefits of Binge Culture 49:19Measuring Podcast Success Beyond Numbers 52:45Building a Unique Equation for Success 56:07Using Guests to Deepen Relationships James's website: https://wearesoundmedia.com/
James's LinkedIn
'Editing' is everything you do between the finished draft and a published piece of copy. Editing will expand to fill all available space, if you let it. (If you're editing an AI-generated draft, your editing problems become MUCH worse!) The longer the piece, the more editing is required.
Last time I updated my Simple Story Selling book, I employed the services of Patty French to help me. Over a book you become (very) blind to your own mistakes. And while I'm a good editor, I'm not a professional. Patty is.
So in this conversation we have an in-depth discussion about the editing process, including the application and limitations of AI tools. If you have a lead magnet or book in the works, you'll want to listen to this one! We discuss:
- 00:00: The Issue of Proximity and Editing
- 02:01: The Importance of Professional Editing
- 08:39: Different Types of Editing
- 14:06: The Challenges of Converting Audio and Video into Written Content
- 17:58: The Role of Grammarly in Editing
- 21:28: Line Editing and Proofreading
- 24:08: The Importance of Coherence and Flow
- 28:35: The Impact of Rhythm and Accent on Writing
- 31:00: Top Editing Tips: Reduction, Clarity, and Flow
- 36:03: The Emergence of Prompt Editing in AI
- 38:08: Using ChatGPT as a Prompt Coach
- 38:47: Understanding the Limitations of AI
- 40:06: The Potential Impact of AI on the Writing World
- 41:18: Using AI to Generate Content
- 45:12: Adapting to the Changing Role of Humans in Writing
- 46:31: The Need for Judgment and Human Input
- 47:53: Separating Writing and Editing Processes
- 51:40: Using AI for Transcription and Editing
Links mentioned:
Grammarly ChatGPT Glasgow GPT Castmagic
To get in touch with Patty please complete the contact form at https://storyselling.biz/contact/
I’ve been podcasting, on and off, for five years.
Podcasting is a weird form of self-therapy. If you’re an expert in your topic you want to talk about it, all the time.
But the more you podcast, the more you become conscious of audio quality. Yes, your listeners show up primarily for the content. But asking people to listen to rambling thoughts on a scratchy microphone will eventually drive people away.
On the latest episode of the Story Selling Podcast, I interview podcast editor Matt Bliss. I wanted to know:
- How good is good enough?
- How to find the right mic for your voice
- Efficient podcast editing workflow
- How to achieve good sound quality while avoiding perfectionism
- The impact of AI on editing
- Matt’s top 80/20 editing tips
If you run a podcast, webinars, or regular online events, this is a mandatory listen. Matt also edited this episode, so you may be interested in comparing the edited footage to the raw conversation (see the trailer below).
Links mentioned:
Matt's LinkedIn | website.
Processes are foundational to any successful system. If you find your marketing communications are sporadic or inconsistent, that in part can be a failure of process.
A good process not only frees up your own time, it also absolves your staff (or remote team) of responsibility when things go wrong. If they followed the process, then blame the process!
I created a prolific set of processes when I ran an AdWords agency, however I've never fully replicated this with copywriting. However today's guest, Konrad Sanders, very much has. Listen in as we discuss:
- 03:28 Creation, analysis, implementation: optimizing, proofreading, checking, documenting.
- 07:58 Started freelance journey with creative copywriting blog.
- 10:35 Expertise in frameworks, methodologies, and processes fuel growth.
- 14:38 Methodology and processes go hand in hand.
- 17:29 Gemba Kaizen book inspired an Oopsie thread.
- 21:59 "How is more important than why"
- 24:25 Why and how differ in customer journey. Buying emotionally at first, then seeking tested methodology. Documentation for reassurance and improvement.
- 28:20 Documenting processes helps agencies define their proposition.
- 33:00 ChatGPT exploded, easy-to-use interface, collaborative AI.
- 34:30 Technology is an essential tool for creativity.
- 40:52 Using ChatGPT as research and validation tool.
- 42:10 Spitting out transcripts, emails, social posts, starting point for editing.
- 45:43 13 lenses: copy/content checklist of compelling, convincing, converting content. Goldfish lens prioritized, top of the spreadsheet.
- 48:35 Eye-friendly design crucial for reader engagement.
Links mentioned:
Download the 13 Lenses eBook
Konrad's LinkedIn | website.
Marketing as a discipline straddles both the artistic and scientific paradigms. On the one hand you’re crafting your message into various media, which is art. On the other you’re measuring, tracking and optimising.
The Lead Incubator sequence – the ‘welcome’ sequence you send to onboard new subscribers - is no different. In fact, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t split test your onboarding sequence. Besides your time there’s no additional media cost!
Listen now to learn:
- What metrics to optimise for
- Which variables to test, and in what order
- How many emails to include in your sequence
- The difference between micro and macro testing
- How to track your test results
Links mentioned:
Read my own Lead Incubator sequence | buy from Amazon
If you run an expertise-based service business, chances are you need to educate new potential clients when they enter your world. That 'education' could take various forms: social posts, webinar, book, email sequence, video.
Many of these things go hand in hand as part of a cohesive marketing strategy. But for me, email is still the best way to foster a relationship with new prospects based on know, like and trust.
In this episode I explain the latest iteration of my 'welcome email sequence' blueprint: The Lead Incubator. Read or listen now to learn:
- Why the first email sequence new prospects receive is critical to deliver a positive marketing ROI (across all channels and activity)
- How many emails to include (initially) in your sequence
- How often to email
- Where to place your calls to action
- How many calls to action to include
- How to drip your story efficiently and effectively across the sequence
- How to attract and keep the attention of your ideal clients (and ONLY your ideal clients!)
- How to share your own story, while also making each email pertinent to your reader
Links mentioned:
Read my own Lead Incubator sequence | buy from Amazon
Good storytelling communicates the core essence of who you are and what you can do for your clients. In short, we're showcasing and broadcasting your unique genius. But to broadcast your genius, you first have to be crystal clear on what that genius is.
Uncovering your genius by yourself is hard. We easily under-appreciate the value we really provide - a problem made worse by our education systems.
In this episode I explore ways to uncover your genius with repeat guest Aveline Clarke. Listen in as we discuss:
- Why there is gold in your lessons from the school of hard knocks!
- Why the matrix of Western living tends to obscure your genius
- Why your genius - when located - gives off a magnetic vibration for your ideal client
- Why you should write your story before telling it in video (hint: this is to do with co-creation)
- Why self-understanding lies at the core of empathy, and therefore trust
- How to accept who you are, right now, today
- The 'artistic' and 'entrepreneurial' framework to business
- How to sense there is a misalignment between you and your work… and how to fix it
- How comparing yourself to competitors can cause a misalignment
- The interplay between purpose and genius… and the role of intuition
- Why you are a leader - and why the world needs better leaders!
Links mentioned:
Aveline's LinkedIn | website | podcast. Her previous Story Selling Podcast episode on customer journey planning is here.
There is more scope for corporate expression than most people think; and this is especially true for brands! Your brand has a voice. It can tell a story. That story can be used to engage your ideal customer.
On this episode I interview brand storytelling expert Felice Ayling. Listen in as we discuss:
- Why the old style of marketing repetition isn’t working anymore
- Why your brand’s story should be oriented around your customers
- Why you’re the guide, mentor or catalyst
- Why story is essential if you don’t want to be perceived as a commodity
- Why it’s a brave step to tell your story (and why telling your story seems to run ‘against the grain’)
- How to test the impact of your story using A/B testing
- How storytelling can maximise marketing ROI (by eliminating waste)
- Why you should lean on your personality traits in your storytelling
- Why it’s essential to consider how your message will be perceived in the marketplace
Links mentioned:
Felice's LinkedIn | website
Your storytelling can only be as good as your awareness of the world around you. This awareness is multi-dimensional and runs DEEP into what it means to be human.
This episode could well become a foundational pillar of everything else that I teach. Listen in as Marti Spiegelman and I discuss:
- Why awareness and consciousness are intimately tied to storytelling
- Why we know things first through our senses – before language comes
- How stories instruct us to grow and evolve – overcoming challenges through adaptability
- The role of archetypes in storytelling (why an archetype is wisdom encapsulated)
- How your origin story relates closely to the world around you
- Why barefoot running (or walking) can expand your awareness
- Simple exercises you can do to improve awareness
Links mentioned:
The Two-million Year Old Self (book)
Marti's TEDx talk | LinkedIn
Marti's course: Introduction to Precision Consciousness
Marti's previous episode on Consciousness in Business
Telling your story is an authentic way to build trust with potential customers. But should everyone be telling stories, regardless of industry? How do you make the story relevant to your message?
On this episode I pick apart these questions with pro copywriter James Daniel. Listen now as we discuss:
- Why stories prime your customer's mind in thinking about your topic
- Why the 'Three Billy Goats Gruff' is the ultimate archetypal story
- How to identify multiple 'off ramps' or bridge concepts at the end of your When to tell your own stories and when to create a parable
- How much to consider the reader in selecting your stories
- How to take an inventory of your own life stories
- How to tell more engaging stories on LinkedIn
- How to honour your relatives with great stories!
- The 'Superman' or 'Mary Poppins' role in business storytelling
- Why your 'About Us' page is the definitive storytelling opportunity
- How to gather compelling customer stories (testimonials)
- Why to collate your stories before selecting stories or evaluating the use case
- How to write compelling emails every day - if you want!
Links mentioned:
James's website | LinkedIn
James's Email Infinity training course
James's previous episodes on the Story Copywriter Podcast discussing Video Scripts and ChatGPT
A LOT of people have jumped on the AI copywriting bandwagon this year. The thing that separates the beginners from the pros is your ability to create effective prompts.
One of the best people I know at creating prompts is repeat podcast guest Orson Lord. Orson is a videographer and storyteller, but has also gone DEEP down the AI rabbit hole. Listen now as we discuss:
- How to use AI to shave time off routine writing tasks
- What AI is good at
- What AI is NOT good at! (hint: this might be 'wisdom')
- Why SOP - standard operational procedures - are required for AI
- How to structure an effective AI prompt
- What work AI will NEVER be better at than a human
- Where to apply AI in the writing process
- How to squeeze maximum value from your podcast (using AI)
- How to use 'expert personas' and follow-up prompts
- How to maintain and grow a database of efficiency-gaining prompts
Links mentioned:
Orson's website | LinkedIn
Orson's course: www.1-day-ai-accelerator.com/landing-page
I keep coming back to storytelling in my work as a core technology of human connection. The principle that underpins this is human consciousness. On a purely functional level a good story raises your reader's level of consciousness about themselves or the world around them.
In this episode Marti Spiegelman explains why this matters in business, and also for society at large. In this interview you'll find the answer to why storytelling matters, as well as:
- How to approach humanity in business when you’ve been brought up in a rational scientific ethos
- The importance of human energy and connection
- Why the elders in indigenous culture are exerts in consciousness
- Why “full consciousness” matters in business
- How to avoid confrontation and false problem solving
- The use of relative and absolute truth
- Why marketing is not about convincing somebody to choose A over B
- The difference between the ego and the collective
- Why ‘The Collective’ isn’t limited to humans
- The role (and importance) of profit in connected systems
- The transformative effect of consciousness – and why this takes time
For Marti's email address or course details please use the form at https://storycopywriters.com/contact/
Bill Mueller is one of those people. Bill is an experienced email copywriter with a passion for storytelling and the founder of 'The Story Sales Machine'. I'm delighted that Bill agreed to come on the Story Copywriter Podcast to share his expertise and compare notes!
Listen in now to learn:
- Why email offers the highest ROI for storytelling
- How to strike the right balance between automated and broadcast emails
- How to repurpose old content
- How to make your writing entertaining - and whether to use humour
- Whether your writing should always be 'on topic'
- How long your emails should be - and the trade-off between length and frequency
- Where to find inspiration for your stories
- Why images are under-used in email
- Why you'll ALWAYS regret not journaling
- How to hook the reader into your email
- Tips to keep people reading
- Whether to include a call to action in every email
- Bill's recommended storytelling books
Links:
Bill's website: storysalesmachine.com
Books mentioned:
- Winning the Story Wars: Why Those Who Tell - and Live - the Best Stories Will Rule the Future (Jonah Sachs)
- Storyworthy (Matthew Dicks)
- Story (Robert McKee) - see also my book review
Mike Garner is a content and email conversion copywriter. He has a simple and important message: your story matters!
On this call we discuss Mike's forthcoming book Stories That Matter: The Everyday Stories of Extraordinary Business People, plus a ton of storytelling insights. Listen in now to learn:
- How good storytelling is a catalyst for change
- Why your story is important and worth telling
- How to make your story relatable to your ideal client
- Where to tell your personal story
- How storytelling can negate the need for a ‘hard sell’
- How to pinpoint the golden thread that runs through your story
- Mike’s assessment of ChatGPT
- How to foster and nurture creativity
- How stories from deep in the past can be highly relative to your message
- The importance and usefulness of regular journaling
Links mentioned:
- Mike's website: hellomikegarner.com
- Mike's LinkedIn
Publishing a book is the most effective way to position yourself as the go-to expert in your niche. What's more, writing the book that only you can write is also a journey of discovery! (Sometimes called 'type 3 fun'...)
In writing your book you get to step back and discover who you really are. On this episode I interview Isse Muratspahić, a book coach with a unique perspective on the writing process. Listen in now as we discuss:
- How to build a brand aligned with your heart and voice
- Why ‘inner work’ often has to precede the ‘outer work’ of writing a book or building a brand
- When to write your book before getting into business - how writing your book can save you years of confusion!
- How to write with both your own interests AND your ideal prospect in mind
- How long it should take to write your book
- How many pages to aim for
- Why you can trust your inner voice
- Why self publishing is often the best option for business owners
- How to use your book as a marketing plan for leveraging your other content
- Where your book should sit in your marketing systems
- How a book can help reduce your reliance on sales
Links mentioned:
- Isse's LinkedIn
- callingtomillions.com (Isse's website and book)
The three reasons to infuse your marketing with authentic stories are to entertain, educate and enlighten. Often we’re laying the groundwork for an offer that will come down the line.
BUT when that offer comes, it needs to be right!
In 2019 Angela Tsai and her business partner launched a bunch of products and courses that totally flopped. So, she set out to find out why…
Listen in now as we discuss the art and craft of creating a compelling offer. On the call we discuss:
- Angela’s results sharing personal stories on LinkedIn
- Why you need to get to the heart of your core messaging before adopting a storytelling approach
- Why understanding and telling your story feeds into the New Renaissance
- Why the wrong offer will undermine all other marketing efforts
- How to overcome fear of making a bold offer
- How to capture your prospect’s attention using ‘the trigger’
- What to consider before creating your offer
- How to adopt an ‘agile’ or ‘beta’ approach to offer creation
Links mentioned:
- Angela's LinkedIn
- growyourbrandwithimpact.com
'Story Selling' is the art and craft of telling stories to sell high value products and services. But how should you structure your stories to attract your ideal client? Is the 'hero's journey' structure really your best option?
On this episode I interview Roy Furr, author of The Ultimate Selling Story. Roy talks through his PAISA formula for story selling, including:
- Why your best copy should make your ideal prospect ‘vibrate’ – and the impact on results
- Why you can easily go astray by following the ‘hero’s journey’ story structure
- How to really dig into the problem your prospect is facing
- Why the symptoms of the problem are more compelling than the problem itself
- How to agitate or elevate emotions around the problem
- How to present your solution are the only or ‘correct’ solution for your ideal prospect
- Why your ‘definite selling proposition’ underpins the success of any promotion
- How to increase results from a promotion by re-ordering the copy
- How to tell effective customer stories (and how this can circumvent ad approval issues!)
- How a great story can illustrate the problem without shaming the prospect
- When to write your own copy and when to hire a copywriter
- How to carve a niche for yourself as a copywriter and play to your strengths
- How to leverage ChatGPT for writing efficiency gains
Links mentioned:
- The Hero's 2 Journeys
- The Ultimate Selling Story
- Roy's website / email list: Breakthrough Marketing Secrets
On this episode I catch up with Roberta Ravella, who is a course graduate of my Nurture Email Mastery course. Roberta is a marketing strategist for realtors and mortgage professionals. I think Roberta does a great job of telling stories in her work! In this wide-ranging conversation we discuss:
- How to select relatable stories to tell
- How tell stories that attract people who share your values
- Why niching down can help your storytelling
- How to use post-it notes to plan stories
- What we really think of Frank Kern
- When to tell personal stories – and how much is too much
- How to avoid patronising your reader (even accidentally!)
- How to pick out current events to weave into your stories and showcase your expertise
- How to write about your passions and make it engaging
- How to put the right story in the right place
- How to tell stories on YouTube
Links mentioned: Roberta's link tree
The storytelling work I do with my clients is entirely interview-driven. I interview people to explore and document their story, then present that story outwards through their marketing communications.
However the customer stories you gather can also be used to develop new products, drive innovation and sharpen your competitive edge. Stories can face inwards as well as out. Listen in to my conversation with Remeny Armitage, founder of Brilliant and Human, as we discuss:
- Why you can’t rely on automation and AI to present the ‘real you’
- How to discover what your clients are really saying about you – and how to use that feedback within your business
- How to develop clients into advocates
- Why to prioritise customer interviews as a process
- Common feedback Remeny hears during her interviews – and the direct impact on client revenue
- How to act quickly on client feedback (and why this matters)
- How to gather client feedback at exactly the right time
Links mentioned in the conversation:
Remeny's website: Brilliant and Human
Remeny's LinkedIn
The "customer journey" is one of my favourite marketing metaphors. If you sell high value services, you usually need to take new potential customers on a 'journey' before they're ready to buy.
But what should that journey look like? And is it all about the tech? On this episode I interview customer journey architect Aveline Clarke. Listen in now as we discuss:
- The difference between the human customer journey and the transactional customer journey
- Why the ‘customer journey’ is not the same as your marketing tech stack
- How to avoid the pendulum of marketing shiny objects
- Why talking about ‘what you do’ can sabotage the customer journey
- Why the customer journey begins with who you are, on the deepest possible level
- The customer journey planning process Ave goes through with her clients
Links mentioned in the conversation:
Aveline's website: Journey Point
The 6 Star Business podcast
Aveline's LinkedIn
“Which email marketing platform should I use?” is an evergreen marketing question! It takes real time and investment to setup any email marketing tool. You need to be sure you are making the right choice.
On this episode I interview systems expert Gareth Everson. Listen in now as we discuss:
- The difference between ‘software’ and ‘systems’ – and why it matters!
- Gareth’s 8 core eight core customer processes, and why lead generation is rarely the real issue
- The correct thinking behind selecting the right software
- Why using an entry level solution (such as Mailchimp) isn’t necessarily a problem
- Why it is beneficial to have a single view of the contact
- Integrations you might want to consider
- How to document your systems outside of your email marketing software
Links mentioned in the conversation:
Gareth’s Lemonade Plan website / book
Gareth’s CRM Growth Systems (for agencies)
Gareth’s LinkedIn
Publishing a book can be a great way to attract a steady stream of qualified prospects. BUT, writing a book is a lot of work! At least, that's the assumption...
In this episode I interview Vicky Quinn Fraser about the concept of 'MicroBooks'. A MicroBook is a short nonfiction book that delivers a powerful transformation to the right reader. Listen now to learn:
- What a ‘MicroBook’ is and how to make it mighty
- How to leverage changes in publishing to share your message with a wider audience
- How to write books that generate real, qualified leads for your business
- How the best books provide a tangible transformation
- How long a MicroBook should take to write
- Whether to dictate your MicroBook rather than write it
- Tips for effective self-publishing
- How to use AI as part of the writing process
Links mentioned in the conversation:
Politics and the English Language (George Orwell) (or on Amazon)
IngramSpark (one self-publishing option)
ProWritingAid (similar to Grammarly)
Vellum (Vicky's typesetting software for Mac)
Vicky's website | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
I might have been living under a rock for a year, but it feels like 'ChatGPT' has burst onto the writing scene in recent months. Could this be the tool to (finally) automate your copy?
Well no, of course it isn't. But it can still play an important role in your writing! On this episode I caught up with copywriter James Daniel to discuss how. Listen now to learn:
- How to use ChatGPT to produce quick first drafts
- The limitations (and dangers) of relying on ChatGPT
- Why ChatGPT can be a valuable rearch assistant
- Why ChatGPT will never (fully) replace human input
- The potential of ChatGPT for storytelling and scriptwriting
- How to use ChatGPT in your writing workflow
- Differences between ChatGPT and Jasper.ai
Links mentioned in the conversation:
Our analysis of Jasper.ai Jon Loomer's work with ChatGPT James' website: jamesthecopywriter.co.uk
Video can be a fast, effective way to build trust with new potential customers. The trouble is, most business video misses the mark. We worry about the technicalities of lighting, equipment and presentation, when what matters most is the script.
On this episode, I interview copywriter James Daniel. James runs a video production service called Scripteroo. As the name implies, he's all about the script! Listen now to learn about the different types of structure you can use for your video.
James has also offered a free set of video script templates, which you can find at https://scripteroo.com/video-script-templates/.
Humans are rationalising creatures, not rational creatures. We tell stories to ourselves and each other all day long. At the highest level, these stories perpetuate or challenge the 'status quo', or the way things are.
I've recently helped a friend and client, Derek Dearden, to publish a book about this called The Letter from 2100: A Possible World for your Grandchildren. On this episode I interview Derek about the book and explore Derek's experience with Amazon's self publishing platform.
Derek's website is https://oneworldthatworks.org/
Did you know that storytelling can help with your SEO (Search Engine Optimisation) efforts?
To discover how, I recently spoke to copywriter and SEO expert Sam Boyd. Listen now to learn:
- Why to get 'beta readers' for any substantial piece of writing
- How stories can help you 'sell without selling'
- How stories can be used to illustrate the need for a product
- How to place stories in customer testimonials
- How to tell customer stories that sound authentic (because they are!)
- Why your stories don't need to be perfect
- How long your articles should be
- How often to publish
- How to organise your content to boost rankings
- How to write compelling case studies
- How long an SEO content project should take to deliver results
- How to research content ideas
Sam can be found at www.copysmiths.com.
A few months back I was interviewed by Danny Iny's team at Mirasee for their podcast Making It. On the show I talked about my journey into copywriting and some key lessons along the way.
Danny's team have kindly let me republish the interview here, so listen in and enjoy the show.
The Making It show can be found at https://mirasee.com/podcast/making-it/. Strongly recommended.
In this episode, I explore how stories can help communicate your purpose and values. Listen now to learn:
- What barefoot running taught me about storytelling
- How storytelling allows you to understand yourself better, and gain perspective on your own values
- How to leverage the fractal nature of storytelling to build trust
- How to select stories that illustrate your core values
Your effectiveness as a Story Copywriter is in part determined by your ability to produce quickly. Your 'writing speed' bears little relation to how many words per minute you can type.
So what matters? How can you increase your writing productivity? Listen now to learn:
- The importance (and role) of ongoing research
- What skills you need to write quickly
- The number one problem that will sabotage your writing
What time of day is best to write for optimum production? The short answer of course is 'it depends on you'. However, after working as a copywriter for many years, and training many clients, I think the question of 'when to write' is more nuanced than it seems!
In this episode I discuss:
- My personal experience of writing at different times, and how to manage your energy
- How to minimise distractions
- WHERE to write, not just when
- Why drinking copious amounts of coffee may be hindering your writing
I invited Orson back onto the Story Copywriter Podcast to continue our discussion about storytelling in video. This wide-ranging conversation covers:
- Can you use 'cliffhangers' in video to keep people watching?
- The 'bouncy start' vs the 'chronological start'
- Different use cases for short and long form video
- The role of white space in story planning
- The role of background music
- Why sound effects matter more than music
- The different roles of sympathy and empathy in good storytelling
- How to use pacing to keep people watching
- How to specialise and collaborate as a Story Copywriter
Orson's work can be found at mediable.com.au
Have you ever been through an extended period of struggle in your life or career, culminating in radical personal transformation?
If so, you have a 'rebirth' story on your hands! Learn how to apply the lessons of Sleeping Beauty, Frozen and Scrooge to your business storytelling. Learn:
- Why the rebirth plot is the close cousin of tragedy
- Why the plot is universally engaging and recognisable
- Who should use this plot to build trust with potential customers
The 'tragedy' plot covers a wide range of stories that lack the 'happy ending' we are so used to seeing.
From a business storytelling perspective, you might be wondering, "why would I tell a tragedy story?" Why would you tell a story without a happy ending?
The answer is to draw your reader's attention to a potentially deadly problem they may have overlooked.
Listen now to learn:
- Why the 'dark character' in a tragedy plot is never truly 'evil'
- Why tragedy stories have persisted in literature across milennia
- Why tragedy is relevant and pertinent to every one of us
- How and when to use it in business storytelling
The comedy plot archetype first emerged in Ancient Greece, and has played an important role in literature over the last 2000 years.
Can you use the comedy plot in business? Yes! Do you need to be funny to use it? NO! (Which for me at least, is just as well).
Listen now to learn:
- The key element at the heart of every successful comedy plot
- Where to use the comedy plot in your marketing (hint: probably NOT up front)
- How the comedy plot can help build trust with potential customers
- Why the comedy plot is a versatile hammer to have in your storytelling toolkit
This episode of the Story Copywriter Podcast looks at the second basic plot based on a journey: 'Voyage and Return'.
Voyage and Return is a versatile plot, with wide ranging applications for business use. Listen now to learn:
- Why the return matters MUCH more than the journey
- Why the voyage should remove or question your sense of self
- How to escalate drama and suspense throughout the story
- The key message behind the Voyage and Return plot, and why this is useful for business storytelling
Want to place a truly engaging story at the heart of your marketing? One of the oldest and most engaging plot archetypes is the quest…
It’s tempting to think of the quest as a ‘journey’. And while there IS always a physical journey in every quest, the journey is only a part of the hero’s ordeal!
Learn how the quest plot works in practice, what the main ingredients are, and how to use it in a business setting. In this episode Rob explains:
- The role of companions and ‘helper characters’ in every good quest plot
- The key characteristics of a quest
- The number one ingredient of a successful quest plot
- How to apply to a business setting
The ‘Rags to Riches’ plot is perhaps the easiest plot to use in business. Unfortunately, it’s also easy to get wrong, because most marketers only write about their riches!
The secret to Rags to Riches is that neither the rags nor the riches actually matter much (and are subjective). What matters is the part in the middle.
What is that part? Find out in this episode, and learn:
- Why 'Rags to Riches' is potentially a good place to start using the plot archetype
- The key elements of a good Rags to Riches story
- How the plot can go wrong
This episode reviews plot 1 of 7 from Christopher Booker's book 'The Seven Basic Plots', and examines potential use cases in business. Listen now to learn:
- Why 'Overcoming The Monster' appears so often in literature
- The key elements of an 'Overcoming The Monster' plot
- Why I believe this plot likely isn't right for your 'signature story
Anyone can tell stories. Stories are an everyday part of the human experience. But what allows a great story to stand the test of time?
This episode takes a deep dive into the plot archetype structure. Rob reviews Christopher Booker's book The 7 Basic Plots, and examines whether we can apply the key lessons to business storytelling. Listen now to learn:
- Why the plot archetype structure is a tool, not a requirement
- How to leverage deep principles to tell better stories
- How and where to use the plot archetype structure in your marketing
It's prediction time for 2022! Where should you focus your storytelling efforts? Listen now to learn: * Why writing alone is a bad idea * Different options for 'copywriting in community' * The three best ways to tell your story in your marketing (for 2022 and beyond)
Podcasting allows you to create your own 'radio station' to nurture potential customers.
In this episode I share my experience of three years of podcasting, including:
- How to determine the scope of your podcast
- Whether to record monologue or dialogue
- How to repurpose your podcast episodes into other media
- How to structure your podcast to deliver your message
- The technology I use
A book is an excellent way to promote your work and your business. Amazon has made book publishing easier than ever... in theory!
The question is, what should you write about? Should you include part of your personal story? How long should the book be? What offer should you put in the book? How long should the whole process take? What kind of results should you expect?
Get answers to all of the above - and more - in this episode of The Story Copywriter Podcast!
"Which email marketing system should I use?" is perhaps the most frequently asked marketing question.
It's also the wrong question to ask!
Listen now to learn how to identify the right email marketing tool for your needs.
How often do you lose time trying to find an email you sent in the past? How often do you spend time trying to diagnose why an email sequence isn't working?
At some point things can and will go wrong in your email follow-up systems. When things go wrong it's the quality (and existence) of your documentation that will save your sanity.
No more digging around in Gmail trying to find an email you created three years ago. No more digging around in old email campaigns. Listen to this episode to eliminate the confusion for good...
Listen now to learn:
- The three types of copy documentation you need in your business
- Which documentation platform I recommend (and why)
- What to include in your documentation
Many email marketers are trying to automate every email a potential customer is sent across the entire customer journey. But is this 'hands free' really attainable... or desirable?
I believe you need a balance in your marketing between automated emails, and live 'out of the pan' broadcasts. Listen now to learn:
- Why automated emails suffer from entropy
- Where to place automated email sequences
- How long your automated email sequences should be
- How to repurpose your best emails into other formats
When you're a 'Story Copywriter' you're the written voice of a business you love. Maybe even your own business.
But can you - and should you - tell your personal stories in video? If so, how should you go about it? Do you need to become a professional videographer?
The answer is, no! In this episode, I interview videographer and storyteller Orson Lord. Listen now to learn:
- Who should tell their personal story in video
- How long your video should be
- How to promote with ads - and where
- How telling your story can improve lead quality
- Why you shouldn't attempt to tell your own story by yourself
- What kit you need to get started (and why you might already own it)
- Lighting tips for an engaging video
- The $20 app that will save your sanity while recording
- A framework to help tell your story
A good story told well helps to build trust with new potential customers. But can you - and should you - tell personal stories on social media?
The answer, in my opinion, is yes! BUT it's also easy to get wrong. It's easy to appear self indulgent.
Listen now to learn:
- How to open your story on social media to draw people in
- How to structure the story to keep people reading
- How to end the story - and where to stop
- What images work best
Learning to write compelling stories is a valuable copywriting skill - but it also takes time and dedication.
Should YOU take the time to become a Story Copywriter? Is this a good match for your skills, interests and ambitions? Find out in this episode!
Are you a business owner who also likes to write? If time allowed, would you write more of your own copy?
If yes, you may be a good match for 'Copywriting in Collaboration'!
Listen now to learn:
- Why the balance of copywriting responsibility sits on a continuum
- Why Copywriting in Collaboration allows everyone to play to their strengths
- The mindset required to deliver great results
When I'm helping a business owner tell their story we always start with the Story Map Interview. The Story Map is a process to explore your story and map out the key events.
In this episode I share the key lessons I've learned from 5+ years of Story Map interviews. I discuss key insights for both the business owners and copywriters. Listen now to learn:
- Why telling your story is best done in dialogue
- How to capture emotional depth in the interview
- How to convert the interview into a usable format - and beat the blank screen for good!
You can also see my Story Map interview questions here.
In this episode I share an interview I did with my friend and Google Ads expert Jonathan Wilson. We crammed a LOT of storytelling insights into this conversation!
You'll find this conversation a good recap of recent episodes, and also a teaser of future episodes to come.
Download or listen in now :-)
Which stories should you tell in your marketing? Should you tell key events from your past? Or should you relate more everyday goings on?
This episode looks at the foundation of story selection. Discover the difference between a 'core story' and a 'current story', and the use case for each.
Listen now to learn:
- How to identify your most emotionally compelling stories
- Where to place each type of story in your follow-up sequences
- Why a 'current story' can sometimes transition into a 'core story'
- How to come up with new ideas
"How often should I email" is perhaps the most-asked email marketing question. Will you 'annoy' your list by sending more frequent emails? How do you determine the most appropriate publishing schedule? How do you DELIVER on that schedule?
The answer lies in consistency...
Listen now to learn:
- How consistency encourages a regular reading habit
- Why consistency adds tangible value to your email list
- A simple calculation to determine optimal email frequenct
- How to deliver consistently on your schedule
Editing is a critical part of the copywriting process. But how much should you edit? Where should you put your focus for the biggest gains? Listen now to learn:
- Why perfectionism is the enemy - and how to beat it
- The two most important editing steps
- How long to leave between writing and editing (and why you need a gap)
- How to apply the 80/20 principle for efficient editing
Learn how to keep people reading - by using conflict! Spice up your next marketing email with the three forms of conflict. Listen now to learn:
- Why most of your conflict should NOT be physical peril
- How to leverage internal dilemmas for added suspense
- How conflict can help to upgrade your reader's level of understanding about your topic
Learn how to lace intrigue and suspense throughout your stories to keep people reading. This episode includes a worked example and recent insights from Rob's copywriting work. Listen now to learn:
- How to lace suspense throughout a story - without making it too obvious
- How to bring the reader into your story
- How to let the reader walk in your shoes, feel your fears and share your peril!
You've had an idea for an email. You've got a great story to tell. You've planned the story using a timeline...
But now you've come to actually write the email, the blank Word document of doom is staring you in the face.
How do you convert your timeline into a draft email, without pulling your hair out? That's the topic of today's episode. Listen now to learn:
- How to expand your timeline into an interim first draft
- How (and why) to check your first draft for contrast and drama
- How to expand your first draft into a fully drafted email
Learn how to connect seamlessly from your story to your sales message using the 'one idea'. Listen now to learn:
- How to 'bridge' between a story and your sales message
- How to inverse the one idea to open up more connection possibilities
- How to 'seed' the one idea for a seamless transition
The timeline is a simple, low tech planning technique for creating effective stories. If you ever feel intimidated telling a story listen now to learn:
- How the timeline can act as a series of prompts
- How the timeline can maximise drama and maintain interest
- How the timeline can prevent your story from developing a dual focus
Most marketers think they have a writing problem. "If only I could craft more compelling stories!" people will say.
Yes, the writing matters. But there's good news: research matters more.
Once you master the art of ongoing research you'll never suffer from writer's block ever again. Listen now to learn:
- Why 'winging it' is a recipe for disaster
- Where to research ideas
- How to capture them
- How to organise them for fast retrieval
The stories you tell in your marketing don't always have to be about you. This is a great relief to the majority of business owners I work with!
Today's episode looks at the final story type: the 'other' story. Listen now to learn:
- How to select interesting stories to tell
- How telling one story can branch into many more
- Where to place 'other' stories in your marketing
Personal stories are highly effective at building trust with new potential customers. In this episode we place personal stories under the spotlight. Listen now to learn:
- Why personal stories are effective
- Where to place them
- How long your personal stories should be
- How many stories you should place in an email sequence
- How to bridge from personal story to sales message
There are (to my knowledge) four types of story you can tell in your marketing: product stories, customer stories, personal stories and 'other' stories. They all can be used at different stages throughout the customer journey. In this episode we examine the first two types: product stories and customer stories.
Before you start telling stories in your marketing you first need a clear grasp of the customer journey. What does the ideal customer journey look like? Listen now to learn:
- Why the customer journey is spherical rather than linear
- How to structure your marketing follow-up systems for maximum sales!
- How to identify missing 'nurture' and 'training' assets to shorten the sales cycle
Is implementation a bottleneck in your marketing? Are you ALWAYS scarce on time? If so you probably need an implementer... Listen now to learn:
- Why you NEED an implementer now more than ever
- How to outsource to an implementer without losing control of the outcome
- How to best manage the work an implementer does for you
In this episode we ask: what does it take to be a successful Story Copywriter? What are the requirements of the role? Is this an innate skill, or one you can learn? Which skill factors are most important?
You can't talk about copywriting without also talking about the technology that underpins it. When it comes to email, "which email system should I use?" is perhaps the biggest email marketing question. Today's episode examins the role of the person responsible for that system: the systems expert.
If you run your own business, should you also be writing your own copy? What role should a business owner play in the production of successful copy? Find out in this episode.