Blue Sky Stinking - SoundSage

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Timings * 00:00 - SCENE 12.1 - IS IT HOT IN HERE? * SCENE 12.2 - AN EERIE CALM

Episode script IS IT HOT IN HERE? AN EERIE CALM IS IT HOT IN HERE?

JAKOB: I don’t understand why we thought that this email list approach was effective or appropriate.

ZELDA: Monty said he had had success in the past with the same approach and I didn’t know the law had changed

GARTH: Don’t you lot read the governments feeds?

ZELDA: (incredulous) Errr, no!

BRYOCK: Some Italian once said that “In football, you win as a group, you lose as a group; you divide the credit and the blame.”

(All pause to take that concept in)

ZELDA: Look! I told Michaela to do the email list on the basis that Monty had experienced previous success with that approach. I have to take the blame.

BRYOCK: Ah, I prefer that approach… “A good leader takes a little more than their share of the blame, a little less than their share of the credit.”

ZELDA: Thanks Bryock, but don’t push it!

JAKOB: We need to become more risk aware

GARTH: Love Risk

JAKOB: Pardon

GARTH: The board game…Risk. Awesome way to spend a Sunday

JAKOB: No, no, no! Risk Management, it’s an organisational discipline really

ZELDA: Sounds boring!

JAKOB: It’s critical but it is so often disregarded.

ZELDA: Well I’ve never done any Risk Management

JAKOB: You do, every day

ZELDA: No I don’t

JAKOB: When you leave your house, do you check your windows and doors are locked?

ZELDA: Well, yes, of course I do

JAKOB: Why?

ZELDA: So I don’t make it easy for thieves to get in and steal my precious things

JAKOB: Exactly, you assess the risk to your “precious things” and reduce that risk by making sure the apartment is secure. You also have insurance on your contents, I’m sure

ZELDA: No, should I?

JAKOB: (stunned) Yes… Yes, of course you should, what if the place burns down – locked doors and windows won’t help then, will they!?

ZELDA: Good point – so get some contents insurance for my apartment

JAKOB: Yes… (Irritated) No, argh, that’s not my point. (Trying to be calm, precise and patient) Ok, that kinda helps prove my point. You have placed a value on your so-called precious things and decided to lock them in your house but you hadn’t considered all of the potential events that could take those things away from you. Theft is one vector which you have reduced, but you hadn’t thought of fire or someone breaking through your window – both of which could be mitigated through proper insurance.

ZELDA: Mitigated, right. So fit an alarm?

JAKOB: (seriously trying to control himself) Yes, for your apartment, yes, by all means, yes. Now think about the business.

ZELDA: (pause) We need to install an alarm on our offices?

JAKOB: (strained and confused) Yes, you could do… Hold on, we don’t have an alarm for the premises? (Glancing around)

GARTH: Don’t look at me… Although I have seen some pretty funky building management systems on JumpStartMyIdea.com I could…

JAKOB: (interrupting and getting irate) Yes, Garth, great… Do that. We’ll pick that up later. All I’m saying is that we need to be more conscious of the threats to the business and make sure we address the ones that could seriously harm us.

ZELDA: Like fire

JAKOB: It’s hot in here! It is hot in here isn’t it? I think I need some fresh air for a second. (Standing up and walking to the meeting room door). As a matter of interest, where is the nearest fire extinguisher?

BRYOCK: The fire station is about a mile and a half up the road

JAKOB: Great! Great… Carry on, I might be some time.

AN EERIE CALM

ZELDA: Come in

JAKOB: (a tad sheepish) Hi Zelda

ZELDA: (not as positive as normal) Hi J, didn’t think you were coming back

JAKOB: Yes, sorry, I think the heat got to me and this has been quite a month already

ZELDA: Yes, loads of ups and downs to say the least (pausing) I’ve been thinking about what you said and I’ve asked Bryock to setup some better Risk Management processes in the business. I was wondering if you could help him.

JAKOB: Of course I will. Katherine could help with putting financial values on the risks so we can have a clearer view of the ones that could cost us the most.

ZELDA: That’s good of you, thanks

JAKOB: I’ve been reflecting on what we’ve done over the past few months and I think that there is a risk, hah risks again! (Pause) There is a risk that if I carry on propping up the business with my money that you won’t get the true business owner experience of running on cashflow.

ZELDA: (sadly) Oh, well I guess that is what I wanted

JAKOB: Yes, I’m sure that you want to prove to your dad that you did it on your own merits and not because you had a generous friend and investor

ZELDA: Yes, absolutely – So, will I still see you… regularly?

JAKOB: Oh of course, I’m still a shareholder and I need to look after my… My… “Substantial” investment… and you

ZELDA: Me?

JAKOB: (misty) Always be there for you (clearing throat and becoming professional) as an investor, shareholder mentor and coach I mean.

ZELDA: Yeah, sure, I…I knew that

JAKOB: Ok, well, see you at… Um… do we have Board Meetings scheduled?

ZELDA: Blegh! Bored meetings you mean

JAKOB: Eh?

ZELDA: B O R E D Meetings

JAKOB: Oh, hah, yeah, funny… We should though, if nothing else to discuss your success… And risks of course

ZELDA: Sure, I’ll get Bryock to get something in the diaries

JAKOB: See you then?

ZELDA: Will do – cheers (getting back to work)

Jakob Leaves the office

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Timings * 00:20 - Scene 11.1 Should have got that 'I Do' * 03:54 - Scene 11.2 A little R E S P E C T * 07:00 - Discussion between Russell & Mike * 07:28 - Why can Emails be blocked? * 08:30 - Ignorance is no excuse * 09:56 - Where to start with Data Protection * 11:00 - Role of the decision makers in protecting data * 11:23 - Showing Professionalism * 12:20 - Information Technology's role in data protection * 13:38 - Reviewing the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. acronym (see below) * 16:45 - What's next?

Useful Information Basic landscape of business regulation (@00:00)

The Agency Workers Regulations, 2010 Agriculture (Safety, Health and Welfare Provisions) Act 1956 Children and Families Act 2014 Companies Act 2006 The Companies (Model Articles) Regulations 2008 Companies (Audit, Investigations and Community Enterprise) Act 2004 Computer Misuse Act 1990 Copyright Act 1956 The Copyright (Amendment) Regulations 2016 Corporation Tax Act 2010 Digital Economy Act, 2017 Data Protection (Charges and Information) Regulations 2018 Data Protection Act 2018 Electronic Communications Act 2000 Employment Act, 2008 Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969 Employment Medical Advisory Service Act 1972 Employment Relations Act, 2004 Employment Rights Act, 1999 Enterprise Act 2016 Environmental Information Regulations 2004 Environment and Safety Information Act 1988 Equality Act, 2010 Factories Act 1961 Freedom of Information Act, 2000 Fraud Act 2006 General Data Protection Regulation, 2016 Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012 Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992 Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 Control of Electromagnetic Fields at Work Regulations 2016 Health and Safety Information for Employees Regulations 1989 Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 Health and Safety (First- Aid) Regulations 1981 Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002 Work at Height Regulations 2005 Control of Lead at Work Regulations 2002 Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 Manual Handling Operations Regulations 1992 Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005 Health and Safety (Offences) Act 2008 Employers’ Health and Safety Policy Statements (Exception) Regulations 1975 Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992 Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 2013 Health and Safety (Training for Employment) Regulations 1990 Control of Vibration at Work Regulations 2005 Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 Income Tax Act 2007 Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 Income Tax (Trading and Other Income) Act 2005 Mental Health (Discrimination) Act 2013 National Minimum Wage Act 1998 Modern Slavery Act 2015 National Insurance Act 1974 National Insurance Contributions Act 2015 Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 Pension Schemes Act 2017 Pensions Act, 2014 Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963 Private Security Industry Act 2001 Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act, 2006 Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 Trade Union Act 2016 Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, 2006 Value Added Tax Act 1994 The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Regulations 2018 Work and Family Act, 2006 Working Time Regulations, 1998 Working Time (Amendment) Regulations, 2007

Show R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (@00:00) * R - Roles - Who does what * E - Education - Raising understanding * S - Standards - Know the rules * P - Policy/Process/Procedure - Define the rules, route and instructions * E - Enforcement - Make sure it's done * C - Communication - Open discussion * T - Testing - Does it work, prove it!

Episode script Should have got that I do A Little R E S P E C T Should have got that I do

CONTINUITY: Jakob and Zelda are having their weekly meeting to catchup. It’s Monday morning and the email debacle continues.

JAKOB: So, 18 leads for all that effort, poor Michaela

ZELDA: She’s fine, but we are now having problems with our email service

JAKOB: Problems?

ZELDA: Well since Thursday we’ve be unable to send emails and we’re still getting the abusive ones coming in

JAKOB: No emails?

ZELDA: We were blocked by our internet provider for sending spam email. Garth is looking into it. Shall we get an update from him now?

JAKOB: Had better.

(Knock, knock, knock)

ZELDA: Oh, Come in Bryock, great timing. (Bryock enters)

BRYOCK: Felicitations to you both!

JAKOB: Morning Bryock (rolling eyes)

ZELDA: Bryock, could you get Garth to pop in and see us please

BRYOCK: Yes Ms Zero and whilst I’m gone I thought you should have early sight of this (passing a letter to Zelda)

ZELDA: Thanks

JAKOB: What is it?

ZELDA: A letter from the Information Commissioners Office

JAKOB: Oh right, what’s that about

ZELDA: Err, they’ve opened a case on Sydeline following 53 separate concerns being lodged with them.

JAKOB: What? Let’s have a look. It says here that they have been unable to ascertain who is accountable for protecting personal data in the organisation from our website and that they are unable to find a Data Controller Register entry for us.

ZELDA: Data Controller Register?

(Knock, knock, knock – tuneful)

ZELDA: Uh, come in?

GARTH: Morning Zelda, Jakob, you asked for me to pop in

ZELDA: Oh yes, yes we did. Sorry, bit flummoxed by a letter we’ve just received

GARTH: Ahhh, the ICO I see… Probably raising concerns about our actions last week on email

JAKOB: Yes… yes it is. How did you know?

GARTH: Oh, well, when Michaela told me what has happened I guessed it would come to their attention. Did you report it?

ZELDA: Report what

GARTH: The breach of 30,000 natural person’s privacy

ZELDA: By who

GARTH: By us

JAKOB: (irritated) What are you talking about Garth?

GARTH: Ok, sorry, thought you realised. I was focusing in resolving our relationship with B 2 B 4 E Mail to get our email service reauthorised. My assumption was that you understood that you had purchased a poor quality email list which didn’t have the appropriate consent secured and that the horrendous backlash we had already suffered had forced you to bring the incident to the attention of the ICO

JAKOB: (flustered) Why on earth (calming down) Why didn’t you tell us?

GARTH: (matter of fact) Email service was down!

ZELDA: Thing is… We didn’t know about.. You know… About what you just said

GARTH: Oh yikes! So, the ICO are following up on concerns reported to them by members of the public?

ZELDA/JAKOB: YES!

GARTH: Ahh, that’s not good. Well it may be alright if you can show them that you’re on the road to being compliant with latest regulations

ZELDA: Which are…?

GARTH: Oh the General Data Protection Regulation and, probably more applicably, the Data Protection Act 2018, or DPA18, which is what I like to call the little beauty.

JAKOB: Little beauty! You seem to know a lot about it

GARTH: Only what I’ve read

ZELDA: Clearly more than we know

GARTH: Well, I wouldn’t like to say that

JAKOB: We would. Sit down. We need to put a plan together

GARTH: But email…

ZELDA: Good grief! This has priority over running the “Death Star” Garth

A Little R E S P E C T

CONTINUITY: It’s two days into the information breach and the investigation from the ICO. Zelda and Jakob escape the office and convene to the Dog and Bone

ZELDA: God! That has to have been the worst start to a week… EVER!

JAKOB: It’s not good. We’ve got a way to go with this DPA18 compliance stuff too. I’m not sure our efforts will be rewarded by avoiding a fine

ZELDA: A fine – oh that could bring us to our knees, no matter what size it is.

JAKOB: Don’t worry, I can keep us going through this, just don’t tell your dad… Oh and here he is, (sarcastic) great!

NERO: And how are my two favourite people? Looking a tad frazzled!

ZELDA: It’s been a tough week, we’ve…

JAKOB: (interrupting) had a lot of good leads in and sales are going well

NERO: Really, what about the ICO investigation?

JAKOB: (surprised) What?

ZELDA: How did you know?

NERO: The ICO announce their actions on Twitter and their other feeds

ZELDA: Oh no

NERO: Don’t worry, I’m sure it’s just a formality. You’ve got your compliance arrangements in place haven’t you?

JAKOB: Starting to hate that word

ZELDA: What compliance?

JAKOB: Yeah, sounds so oppressive

NERO: I like to think of it as Respect

ZELDA: Respect?

NERO: Yes sweetie, Respect for the health and safety of your people, respect for the laws of the land, respect for the requirement to pay tax and report to the proper bodies. In fact, R E S P E C T is an acronym too… Hold on (looking on phone), where is it… Ah, here you go

ZELDA: Roles, Education, Standards, Process, Enforcement, Communication and Testing – what’s that then?

NERO: The things you need to consider in becoming compliant. Who does stuff, teaching people. Setting the rules and procedures… etc

JAKOB: So that’s what we need to do to get on top of Data Protection

NERO: Yeah… And Health and Safety, VAT, Corporation Tax, Employment Law, Cyber Security and any number of the manufacturing standards that you MUST be applying in the factory.

ZELDA: Oh, yes, yes of course

JAKOB: Are we?

ZELDA: (hard stare and clipped) Yes, we have robust standards in place in the factory.

NERO: Funny thing. You know that problem we had in the factory before you left?

ZELDA: Yeah?

NERO: Well, Chris’s top notch procedures and record keeping saved our skin to be honest. The auditors that came in found only minor non-conformities and took only advisory action

JAKOB: Thanks Nero, a great pointers there

NERO: Always happy to help if I can – drinks?

ZELDA/JAKOB: YES PLEASE!

Business Regulation Discussion Transcript Transcript of business regulation discussion to follow soon

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Timings * 00:24 - Scene 10.1 - Socially Inept * 04:00 - Scene 10.2 - That went went, not * 06:02 - Discussion with Amanda Williams * 08:26 - Marketing is not a dirty word * 09:43 - Social media dangers * 10:34 - Picking your "party" * 11:52 - The 80/20 content rule * 12:33 - White paper - Online harm * 13:38 - Better social approach * 15:48 - Closed Facebook groups * 17:06 - Email shots and purchasing lists * 19:06 - Due diligence * 20:50 - Legitimate Interest... or not * 25:30 - Digital Marketing pitfalls * 28:46 - The Non-digital marketing mix * 30:00 - What's missing in Sydeline? * 31:10 - Agile marketing strategy * 32:54 - Top tips * 33:48 - The future for Sydeline? * 36:01 - What's next?

Useful Information Essential Privacy Reading (@12:33) * Online Harms - Executive Summary page (gov.uk) * Online Harms - Full Whitepaper PDF (gov.uk) * Mark Ronson - So You've Been Publicly Shamed - book (Amazon) * What are PECR? - Site (ico.org.uk)

Top tips for compliant digital marketing(@00:00) * Go back to the basics * Know your customer, know your audience * What's your tone of voice, how will you add value? * Treat your website as your hub and use social media to attract people to it * Keep aware of the boundaries and new regulations * Be prepared to pivot when things change

Episode script Socially Inept That went well, not! Socially Inept

CONTINUITY: Montgomery Grabbar, or Monty, the Sydeline Sales Manager comes to discuss his ideas about improving sales with Zelda and Michaela.

ZELDA: Morning Monty, morning Bubbles

MICHAELA: (full of beans) Morning!

MONTY: (full of the heavy night before) Morning!

ZELDA: How was the trade show Monty?

MONTY: Hard work, loads of good contacts and great conversations.

MICHAELA: Looks like you had a long night

MONTY: Oh yeah, it was 3 o’clock before I finished… Errr…selling

ZELDA: So what’s the plan? We’re sadly lacking in sales. I have a factory producing stock and a full warehouse and an empty order book. How we going to turn this around?

MONTY: I need more leads to follow up on

MICHAELA: We are not getting the foot fall on the website. I’ve received some feedback that it’s dated, difficult to read, unclear, poorly designed… The list goes on. I’ve have 30 or so offers for website companies to do it for us – should I investigate that.

ZELDA: (sadly) I worked for hours on that website

MICHAELA: Ok, well perhaps I should focus on our social media accounts then.

ZELDA: What can we do there?

MICHAELA: Well we have Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Google Plus, Tumblr, QZone, Twitter, Pintrest, Reddit, StumbleUpon, The Dots, Youtube, Horsetraders, Delicious, Viadeo, Xanga, Vine, Buzznet, Postulate, Billy Nomates, Tout, Quora, Vimeo and Medium accounts on the go. I’m monitoring messenger, SnapChat, Whatsapp, QQ, Tinder, ScribbleTalk and WeChat for customer feedback. I’ve registered us with local business organisations, networking groups, Scoot, Hotfrog, Central Index, Touch Local, Yelp and Thompson Local. I think that’s it… (Pausing to check) I’m a bit surprised we’re not generating leads.

MONTY: (tongue in cheek) What about Yellow Pages?

MICHAELA: Oh right, yep, ok – what’s Yellow Pages?

MONTY: Heh! You’re too young to understand… And good you’re monitoring Tinder

MICHAELA: Hold on, not Tinder, that’s… Errr… A mistake!

ZELDA: (a bit stunned) And you’re posting on all these services

MICHAELA: Yeah. (hurriedly) Not Tinder. It’s a bit tough keeping with the schedule as it’s about 10 hours a day

ZELDA: Wow, that’s quite an overhead for no leads

MICHAELA: Yes, and It’s having a detrimental affect on my social life

ZELDA: I bet – no wonder you didn’t join us at the pub on Friday night.

MICHAELA: Oh, I meant at the weekends

ZELDA: You’re doing 10 hours a day 7 days a week

MICHAELA: (still enthusiastic) Oh yes!

ZELDA: Right… So any ideas Monty?

MONTY: (a little bemused by social stuff) I… I think we should do an email shot. I’ve had great success with that in the past

ZELDA: Funny you should say that…I had an email the other day saying that they have 100,000 targeted contacts in an email list I could purchase for £49.99

MICHAELA: On the surface that sounds amazing…

MONTY: Sounds like a start – 1% of those and we’ll have 1000 customers in no time

MICHAELA: I’m not sure…

ZELDA: Ok, Bubbles, I’ll purchase the list and you send out and email which gets the leads flooding in.

That went well, not!

CONTINUITY: Michaela has sent out a large chunk of the emails and has had some responses. Tapping on Zelda’s office door, Michaela needs to provide an update

MICHAELA: Zelda, would you have a moment

ZELDA: Sure, how’s it going?

MICHAELA: Well, I’m about 1/3 of the way through sending the email shot out

ZELDA: That’s taking a while.

MICHAELA: Our email service only allows us to send 100 emails at a time!

ZELDA: That means… You’ve had to do over 300 emails already.

MICHAELA: Yes, it’s a bit of a drag, but I’ve soldered on

ZELDA: Is it yielding any results?

MICHAELA: We’ve certainly had a response

ZELDA: Oh that’s good

MICHAELA: We’ve had 348 emails complaining about the mail and asking where we got the email address. About 7200 bounced as unknown emails or spam filtered. We’ve had around 10,000 unsubscribes, 480 people complaining that there wasn’t an unsubscribe option in the email and we’ve just been notified by our email service provider that our account has been blacklisted. We’ve had 18 leads from 30,000 emails and I can’t send anymore.

ZELDA: 18 leads, better than nothing I guess. When you say you can’t send any more emails… You mean today?

MICHAELA: As I understand it, permanently until we satisfy them that we resolved the illegal activity

ZELDA: Illegal?

MICHAELA: Yes, some new data protection thing… I’ve got Garth looking at it for me, but he just put his hands in his head when I showed him the email I got

ZELDA: That’s good – perhaps you could look at the law thing with him and see when we can restart the emailing

MICHAELA: Ok, sounds like a plan

Discussion Transcript RUSSELL: Now that sounds like a horrendous state of affairs. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon in our ever-changing world of marketing and lead generation and sales. To draw out some of the learning we can take from this debacle, I'm very pleased to welcome Amanda Williams, who is a consultant with Cloud Legal. Welcome Amanda.

AMANDA: Thank you Russell, pleasure to be on your podcast.

RUSSELL: Thank you. Could you please take some time to have a look at Sideline with us. You have a unique cross section of skills in my opinion.

AMANDA: That sounds like I'm a special agent, isn't it. I have a unique set of skills.

RUSSELL: Well, perhaps you're special agent. [chuckles]

AMANDA: Perhaps I am.

RUSSELL: Tell us what you're a special agent in.

AMANDA: Well, I started off my life in medical and pharmaceuticals and I've done about over 20 years in that. I carried the bag, I was a medical sales rep and did a little bit of marketing, and then in those days you had to choose between medical and marketing and I went down the medical route and worked in information and also clinical research, so I used to organize multinational clinical trials.

I did a lot of training as well. As you can imagine, it's a very highly-regulated environment, lots of compliance issues. I'm an early adopter of social media. I was using Orkut in 2004, which probably people haven't heard of. It’s a long story and it doesn't exist anymore. I was blogging on Multiply in 2005, which also doesn't exist anymore. When Facebook came along, it felt like a natural progression from those things.

Since I've been in Cornwall, I've run a marketing consultancy and then a few years ago I got involved in data protection, learnt about the GDPR. To me, it seems like a perfect fusion of my life. I'm an extrovert, but inside there's a nerd trying to get out. I've got the marketing skills, but also that I'm very aware of the compliance and working with companies, trying and helping them get compliant with the GDPR. It's a little bit like my clinical research skills. Evidence in compliance is a big thing in the last few years, if it isn't evidence, it didn't happen.

RUSSELL: An interesting balance between the market and the need to market a business and to secure the privacy of the people you’re marketing to. I think we’ve picked well for our conversation then. What has changed and has affected the world of marketing? Let's reflect on that GDPR phrase that you’ve used a number of times. How has that affected the world of marketing?

AMANDA: I think it has affected it, and I think marketing is not a dirty word. I think some people seem to think it's not a good thing, and I must say I love it. I love seeing adverts. I love the creativity. When I was a little girl, my dad used to-- he was in sales and marketing. He played a game at parties where he'd cut the brand name out of an advert and that was my favorite game.

I love the creativity of marketing and the innovation in it, but clearly, as time has gone on, as we've got more technological and we're all on Google and we've been tracked, things need to be regulated. It's very different to how it was like 40 years ago where you saw an advert on a railway or something. Now, it’s following us around the internet, so I think there is a case for more regulation.

RUSSELL: Yes, you're right about the marketing being a dirty word or it can be a dirty word. Obviously, if you’re in business, it can't be a dirty word, not really, unless you're fortunate enough to have people knocking on your door,

AMANDA: Yes, that doesn't really happen does it? No, not at all.

RUSSELL: Now, you mentioned social media, and we heard in the drama Michaela rattle off an awfully long list of social media accounts she was using. What are your thoughts on that approach?

AMANDA: I think she must spend her whole day and whole night with a finger hovering over her phone, and she's at great risk of getting RSI. I worry about that, and clearly from even from a kind of mental health point of view, it's just not good to be on the screen that much, and a complete waste of time really, isn’t it? To have that much going on and trying to scatter that much throughout all of those social media channels. Definitely, I think some companies, there is a danger of overuse and not using it properly.

RUSSELL: Overuse is an interesting concept because people might think, “Shouldn’t I get my message out on every platform I possibly can.” How can it be overused?

AMANDA: I think it's a question of going back to basics, and it's finding out who are your audience and where do they hang out? If you think of social media as a party, which party are they likely to be at? It is a bit about going back to basics. Who is your customer? Where are they going to hang out? Then getting your message to them in the right way and that's going to be different. Every business is going to be different.

RUSSELL: Yes. It's an interesting analogy, the party concept. Considering the Facebook and Instagram, any business terms perhaps LinkedIn are the biggest parties. They’re the parties to always go to?

AMANDA: Well, they’re the parties I hang out. I like the LinkedIn party, I must admit, but that’s because I’m a nerd. I think sometimes people forget that it is social media. You and I, if you went to a party and we met, there's a bit of small talk. I don't go straight into a party and say, “Buy my stuff.” It is a party, there is a bit of banter with a small talk. I think that's a really good thing.

One of the things I've been talking to clients about over the last few years is having a really good content plan. Roughly 80% of your content should be something that's going to add value to your customer, maybe answering questions that they have or sharing great content with them from other people. Then you earn your annual right or 20% of that to be a good call to action to say, “Buy my stuff,” but if you're always saying, “I'm great, come see me, buy my stuff,” it gets a bit boring and people then don't engage.

RUSSELL: Yes. Yes, fair enough.

AMANDA: There is another side to that. It is social and it is a party if you like, but there's a serious side to that as well, and I think we've seen that recently in the white paper that's come out from the government, this online harm, so you do have to be careful. It's not the Wild West out there. You can't just say anything you want and there are things you have to be aware of when you're using social media.

I would say read Jon Ronson's book So You've Been Publicly Shamed, and that gives you a really good idea of how it's so easy to get it wrong, which is why going back to basics, know your customer, know your audience, where do they hang out? Then work out what is right for you to say, what is good, what you shouldn't say, what your tone of voice going to be and more importantly who is going to manage your social media accounts. I don't give it to the office junior because they know how to use Twitter. That’s the idea really.

RUSSELL: [laughs] Yes, because McHale is obviously very capable with social media. It’s just-- well, I’m going to talk about that in a second, I think, perhaps it’ll be a bit more strategy and thinking it through. Sideline is a startup, it's a strange startup [laughs] I'll grant that. [chuckles] What would be a better social approach then? Let's be quite specific, what would be the better tack for them to take? Just focus on one social account, they’re a B2C type operation, so Facebook, is that the better social media approach? When would you start again or when would you perhaps consider some other social media accounts?

AMANDA: What I always say to my clients is, “Regard your website as the hub of your wheel. The idea of social media to drive people to your website.” It's a way of introducing people to your brand, to your values. Maybe for a B2C brand a good place would be Facebook and Instagram, and maybe Twitter, but there's a great saying and we’ve talked about this before, it depends.

It so depends on your brand, on your messaging, and who your audience are. Facebook is, and Instagram, a good place to start. Although the algorithms are making it harder to reach people. Mark Zuckerberg is having a little bit of a change of mind at the moment as regard to privacy issues and we don’t quite know where that’s going to go.

That’s interesting because he talked for many years about Facebook being sharing your ideas with the world, and now he's talking about privacy and wanting it to be more like a living room, and maybe even going down the private message. For brands, that could have quite an impact on them because all of a sudden whereas even five-six years ago sharing on Facebook was easier than it is today, which is driving people to use paid social ads, or closed Facebook groups are quite good as well. I found those are very very useful. That's more of a living room, that kind of content is more of a living room.

RUSSELL: Yes, okay. When would you use a closed Facebook [group]? What more benefits would that bring, in your thoughts?

AMANDA: I've got one at the moment, which is called Make Marketing Work, and there's a couple of us on it that are experts in data protection marketing, email marketing. We've created a community, it's closed, so it's a safe space and we could really add value. It's aimed primarily is to add value and to help people. As in all social media, if you're a brand you want to set yourself up as the authority in your area.

By adding value, by giving great content, by sharing good posts, you can show that you've got your finger on the pulse. When your customer does come to choose a brand or a product or a service, hopefully, you're the one they think of because you've shown them that you know your stuff and that you're interested, you're curious and that you got your finger on the pulse.

RUSSELL: Okay, we discussed in previous episodes and it's our last episode that we discussed about brand and the website these Sidelines got and of course that isn't particularly appealing either. You can go look at it. It's pretty horrific. We heard in the first scene that the Zelda has given this permission to go out to an email short. Now bit of an old-school perhaps approach. Is it a problem of purchase list of recipients?

AMANDA: Well, it can be

[laughter]

RUSSELL: It depends.

AMANDA: It depends. Just a really good thing about email marketing is that it's a list that you have with permission from people. It's a little bit more stable than social media, which if Mark Zuckerberg does decide to change the rules, then you're a little bit of a loss. You do have to take great care with email marketing and a purchase list. I would say take very, very great care.

Do your due diligence. Where's the list come from? Has it got the right consents? Be very, very careful. The ICO are looking and they fined somebody recently for getting emails from a list. They didn't have the right consent and they sent emails to two million people and they received a £40,000 fine. That was under the old data protection act. Now it would be more, so be very careful and do your due diligence.

Ask lots of questions. Back in the day, you would sign up for a list and it would say we will share your data with our trusted third parties, that's not allowed anymore. You have to actually list them. If I put my name on the list, I need to know where that's going to be shared with and I need to know the names. Then that's a valid consent, but you do need to be very careful.

RUSSELL: Which does make it quite difficult for organizations that have previously orchestrated these lists to sell and makes a little bit tricky for them because really, they need to know who they're going to set it [chuckles] to before they sell it, which does make it a little bit tricky. You used a phrase there, due diligence. Now, it's a phrase that I'm obviously very familiar with, what would you say is involved in due diligence because it's a phrase that may not be well-known to some people?

AMANDA: I would say that it involves asking an awful lot of questions from the organization and if you are going to trade with organisations, you need to know that they are playing safe with the data as well, and what preparations have they made? What evidence of compliance have they got? Because your customers will want to know that you were all playing nicely with the data. They may ask you for evidence of that and you should be able to provide it.

RUSSELL: That's quite key. Your compliance, your business compliance and your status legally relies on the compliance of other people in that case and there's that can you prove it is that due diligence bit, nothing is where we've seen a lot of people just not bothering to check where they're getting this stuff.

AMANDA: Yes. Your supply chain. Your weakest link could make you non-compliant.

RUSSELL: Yes. People need to take their time to find [chuckles] that weakest link and either root it out or make it stronger, reinforce it. Email marketing though still has a place you feel?

AMANDA: Absolutely.

RUSSELL: Yes. Because it is difficult to market nowadays. It is actually, it's a trickier game as you say, they keep changing the rules and it's difficult to get to the top of the Google list and then next week on page one will be a different set of rules and it will be another density of keywords on your website and you're all finding. Now looking slightly deeper into some of the aspects of the data protection act or GDPR.

There is a term in that which is legitimate interest and its scenic crop up in people's privacy statement if they have one. Perhaps you give us a little bit of understanding behind the legitimate interests?

AMANDA: Okay, there are two legal basis you can use for direct marketing, consent and legitimate interest. Consent will be for people that aren't your customers. This is for people that subscribe on your website for example that have never bought anything from you, but if they are your customers or they've entered into negotiations for a sale, you can send them direct marketing without their consent under legitimate interest. This is because of something called PECR, which is not the GDPR. It's the privacy and electronic communication regulation 2003.

This has been around since 2003 and people have maybe weren't aware of it or maybe GDPR made it sexy. I don't know, but it has been around since 2003. You can send direct marketing without consent to your customers or to people who are entering into negotiations for sale. There is a but here, you do need to do your homework and there are a few things you need to make sure you've got right before you just go and send people email marketing.

If you're going to use legitimate interest under what's called the soft opt-in because actually, they're kind of you've opted them in yourself because they are a customer. It needs to be in the course of the sale or in the course of negotiations for sale. You need to give them an opportunity to opt out at the point of that purchase. You can only send the marketing on similar goods and services and you need to always give them an opportunity to opt out.

Now a lot of ink has been spilled on legitimate interest. Some of the guidance from the ICO's helpful in helping us think about what would the data to subject reasonably expect. Have you got a relationship with them if they're a customer of yours, then they might reasonably expect to receive marketing on similar goods and services, but don't forget that opt out at purchase.

That was often missing, wasn't it before? That's a helpful way of looking at things whereas a non-customer, you haven't got a relationship with them, then you need to rely on consent. Last year we saw an awful lot of repermissioning emails prior to the 25th of May.

RUSSELL: Yes, It was bonkers.

AMANDA: A lot of them they didn't really need to be repermissioned because these were customers of people. They didn't need consent because they were customers and a lot of people lost an awful lot of emails from their email marketing list, which is a real shame.

RUSSELL: Yes. I saw one article and I really should try and dig it out again, but it said, "If you change the word legitimate to common," and if you said, "Somebody has a common interest with you," if you know somebody's got a common interest, you'll talk about that subject, but only that subject. I'd have common interests in marketing, GDPR with you. I might like Star Trek, but would I talk to you about Star Trek? Probably not, possibly not. I don't know if you like it, therefore, I'm not sure of your common interest and therefore legitimately send you have a conversation about it. That's great. Thanks for that explanation.

AMANDA: It's always good as well to do your homework beforehand. Write out a legitimate interest assessment because then if the ICO were to come knocking at your door, you've got all your documentation to prove that you've really thought this through and that you haven't just gone into it without any consideration for the privacy of the data subject.

RUSSELL: Yes. What we've seen here is a hundred thousand emails obviously on a list that there is no evidence of legitimate interests and no evidence of consent. Therefore, the massive fallout they've got and a broken email system. Moving on a little bit. What other pitfalls are there in digital marketing worth mentioning?

AMANDA: There are a few other things to be aware of. Again, it's going back to basics actually particularly in the terms of personal data. What I always say is if you've got a Facebook page and you are considered a joint controller with Facebook-- now, maybe that's a discussion for another day-

RUSSELL: Yes, [chuckles] that would make it easier.

AMANDA: But just a little take-home from that is your privacy policy should be on your Facebook page. There's a little place where you can put things like that. You can link to your privacy policy and I would also say in that section of the Facebook page, have some kind of terms and conditions about what you expect on your Facebook page.

Things like that you don't tolerate hate speech or obscenities or whatever is right for your brand and be very careful. I think this white paper that's just come out, I think that speaks into that. It's a responsibility of yourself to look at your Facebook page and to monitor what's going on in that. That's one thing. If you're doing influencer marketing, I think be careful with that, the ASA has really cracked down on-

RUSSELL: ASA?

AMANDA: The Advertising Standards Authority has really cracked down on influencer marketing. The celebrities that use a face cream and say how amazing it is and then they aren't telling you that that's because they were either giving it free or they're paid to promote it. Just be really wary of that and check into that what you might need to put a hashtag sponsored, or a hashtag ad on that just so people know, because there's an awful lot about transparency. The authorities want brands to be transparent with their customers.

RUSSELL: Because otherwise, I don't think there's anything more we know, there's nothing more valuable than a recommendation and an unsolicited recommendation from somebody else of your services. If you've got a celebrity that's promoting your face cream and they've been paid to do it, that's not unsolicited and needs to be evident. That's an interesting issue.

AMANDA: There was one more thing as well. Well, there's lots of things, but one more thing we'll talk about right now is just be careful with things like custom audiences on Facebook. If you've got your email marketing list, it's very easy to export that and pop it into Facebook and get a custom list.

RUSSELL: Yes.

AMANDA: Just be very, very careful with that and make sure again, you've got the consents in the right place, Facebook are cracking down on it, and MailChimp I know have put extra steps in place. I wouldn't advise it because, again, what you're doing is you're taking people's data where they've agreed to have your email marketing and you're moving it to somewhere else.

You're moving it on to a platform that they may not be on for various reasons. You do have to make sure you've got that process right, that you've got consents in place to do that before you just go ahead and do it because it's clever, and it does work but just because it works doesn't mean you should do it.

RUSSELL: Just brought to my-- we were talking about digital marketing specifically. I've also seen a rise lately in less unpolite call it junk mail. The people are moving away from the social media marketing, social media and the website marketing because it's actually becoming a lot harder, and they're falling back to posting stuff through your door. Have you become a cross seller?

AMANDA: Yes, I have actually.

RUSSELL: I've noticed that's on the rise as well. Again, if it comes in as to occupy there's no personal data for them to manage. It is a way of marketing without necessarily having the personal data burden.

AMANDA: In a way that is quite good to have that marketing mix. In this new era of privacy and data protection, don't forget those traditional forms of marketing, print adverts, radio adverts. Apparently, radio adverts are on the up at the moment.

RUSSELL: Are they coming back again? [chuckles]

AMANDA: They are and the catalogs, and I must say there's a little bit of me that actually is quite enjoying getting some of the catalogs back and just physically flicking through away from screen time. Don't discount all those traditional forms of marketing.

RUSSELL: That brings us nicely on to what is missing in Sideline? In your opinion?

AMANDA: I think Sideline need to go back to basics. They need to ask who their audience are. They need to have a strategy and a plan and maybe have some idea about what sort of content they're going to produce, how are they going to do it? Who's going to do it? Then look at the data they have got and do an audit on it. That's something that we always recommend and if that's something that you talk about a lot, too.

Whose personal data you're holding, have you got a legal reason to hold it? If you haven't, then you need to get rid of it. Decide what you can and can't do with that data. Then you may need to get somebody to help you with your social media marketing, as I say don't necessarily just leave it to the junior because they know how to use Instagram and they know what a hashtag is because it can spiral out of control. If you haven't got someone that understands your tone of voice and the kind of boundaries in which you operate.

RUSSELL: Thank you. Strategies are always one of those dirty words. Many businesses are now, don't do strategies, they haven't got time for it or they can't see the value in it, but part of it is about what's your ethos? What's your values? Where are you trying to go? Where's your marketplace? Getting that down doesn't have to be a tome, doesn't have to be anything much more than two sides of a four sort of thing, but how are you then going to address that market? How are you going to get it? I think it needs to be understood from the top down, doesn't it?

AMANDA: Yes.

RUSSELL: Because Zelda didn't know the impact of sending out this email. She took no advice. I think that's always a problem is if somebody's making a decision on a marketing strategy, without considering the impacts of it.

AMANDA: I think also you can have your two sides and it can be agile because things do change. Mark Zuckerberg is changing his mind on how Facebook is going to run. The algorithms on Instagram have changed and then you find that your engagements gone down. Sometimes you do need to be prepared to pivot a little or react to something. A strategy can be great. It doesn't have to be absolutely set in stone.

Be prepared to roll with the changes a little bit. Also keep your eye on new regulations coming up. We got a privacy that will come up one day, that's another subject for another day, I'm sure. There are lots of things that you need to be aware of, when you're doing marketing of any sort.

RUSSELL: As we approach the end of our conversation in terms of social media and digital marketing, and you probably said some of these before, but what would be the top tips that people could take away from our conversation?

AMANDA: I think what I'm saying my top tips to sum up are go back to basics on all sorts of things. Who are your audience? Where are they? What's your tone of voice? What sort of things are you going to share with them? How are you going to add value? Don't forget it's social media, but then it's also there's a tension between that and given actually getting it wrong as well. Just be aware of the boundaries and be prepared to learn from new regulation and be prepared to pivot when things change.

RUSSELL: Brilliant. Now I will put some links to the white paper you mentioned and the book you mentioned on our show page. Before we go, what do you see in the future for Sideline [chuckles] in this situation?

AMANDA: I think they got some work to do, don't they? I think they need to have a big long coffee break and have a good old chat about exactly what they're trying to achieve, who their customer is, and how they're going to get there and all work together. Because I think sometimes you can, one person wants to go one way and because the other person doesn't know what they're doing, it's easy for it to get out of control. I think they need to sit down, have a big coffee break.

RUSSELL: I think that's quite a good general tip, isn't it? Is take the time to think things through and to take advice. Find somebody who you trust or who is skilled in a particular area and take advice on it. I think it's so easy for a business especially small business, they kick off and they start producing what they've always done and they doing the delivery, delivery, delivery but they don't necessarily think and spend time to go back.

Are we heading in the right direction? Are we doing it right? Have we got all of the legal requirements covered? Yes, that getting back to basics tip that you had, is invaluable. Thank you very much Amanda.

AMANDA: It's a pleasure.

RUSSELL: It's been a great conversation and I think as you say this is a subject as with many that we've covered that there's got so many tendrils going into the business, but data privacy and personal data is something that is incredibly important and it certainly got a very strong law, several laws to back it up now.

All I can do now is having thank you is to encourage everyone to have a listen to the other podcasts and to comment and like and share and tell your friends and ask questions and give us ideas of what we can do with Sideline in the future. If you've got any experiences yourself, please, do take time to leave those. Next time, we're looking at little bit further into compliance issues, and specifically, a bit of respect. Join us next time for I do, I do, I do, I do, I do.

with special thanks to...

Amanda Williams is a consultant with Cloud Legal. A Hybrid Marketer and Privacy Professional & Trainer, Amanda has a unique perspective on balancing the desire to market a business effectively with the need of complying with privacy laws.

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Timings * 00:19 - Scene 9.1 Can a logo be to super? * 06:08 - Scene 9.2 A hand on the brand * 09:24 - Discussion with Tom Gamblin * 10:13 - What makes a brand? * 12:45 - Is it all about the logo? * 13:15 - Are logos difficult to create? * 14:55 - A customers view on the logo * 16:07 - Good and bad logo design approaches * 17:48 - Other aspects of 'brand' * 19:42 - Applying the brand * 21:45 - Consistency is key * 22:30 - Internal marketing resources * 24:50 - Doing a rebrand * 27:12 - Using real data, avoiding assumptions * 28:00 - Top tips * 31:07 - What's next?

Useful Information Building a brand * How to Start Your Own Brand From Scratch in 7 Steps - Article (Shopify) * The Basics of Branding - Article (Entrepreneur) * For inspiration, Logopedia - site (Fandom.com) * How to Develop a Unique (& Memorable) Brand Identity in 2019 - Article (Hubspot)

Top tips for ...(@00:00) * Never rush into branding * Discover what your customers want * Thank how the brand will be applied * Find skilled resources * Consider the return on investment in your brand

Episode script Can a logo be too super? A hand on the brand Can a logo be too super?

CONTINUITY: With production in full swing, the attention turns to marketing and sales at Sydeline. Word of mouth has delivered friends and family sales, but quickly dried up. A very small team meeting is called

ZELDA: Thank you all for coming to this meeting. We need to get a grip on our marketing, what are your thoughts?

BRYOCK: Peter Drucker once said that “the aim of marketing is to know and understand the customer so well the product or service fits him and sells itself. “

ZELDA: (not quite getting it) Ok, nice start Bryock

JAKOB: I’m a bit worried about the new logo

ZELDA: Why’s that? I think it looks great

JAKOB: It’s an S inside a diamond

ZELDA: Yep! S for Sydeline and the diamond to depict quality, hard wearing, sparkly and all those other diamond-like qualities

JAKOB: So, (getting out a tee-shirt and laying it on the table)

ZELDA: (excited) Oh wow, you’ve had it put on a tee-shirt and I love the red and yellow colours. That’s awesome, what’s not to love about that

JAKOB: (deliberately) That’s my Superman tee-shirt

ZELDA: Oh

JAKOB: That logo has been in use for, something like, 80 years

ZELDA: (cautiously) Ours is a different colour

JAKOB: I really don’t think that will work as an argument with DC Comics

BRYOCK: It would explain the tweets we’ve been getting since I posted it.

ZELDA: Like?

BRYOCK: (reading) “Do you use Kryptonite in your products”, “Are your deliveries faster than a speeding bullet”, “I think that logo might already be Trademarked” – it goes on

JAKOB: Right, yes, that would explain those. So that needs working on

ZELDA: When you say “that needs working on” do you mean getting agreement from Superman?

JAKOB: Errr, no? I mean we will need to come up with a new logo design.

BRYOCK: So…, don’t get it printed on boxes and stationery then.

JAKOB: Definitely not…, wait… Have you had it printed already?

ZELDA : Ummm, Yes

JAKOB: What like?

BRYOCK: 150,000 boxes, 20 reams of letter heads and business cards all round, here, see mine (proudly waiving it around)

JAKOB: (moaning) Good grief, no. I can’t fault your enthusiasm but we can’t use any of these… Perhaps we can get some printed labels to cover the logo on the boxes maybe?

BRYOCK: Have to be a big label! Could slow down packing having to put 4 stickers on each box

JAKOB: 4?

ZELDA : The logo is well used on the boxes, you can’t miss it

JAKOB: (in resignation) Well, they’ll just have to go to recycling then – perhaps we can just use plain boxes until we get a new logo?

BRYOCK: Ok, I’ll order plain boxes and get everything else recycled – how eco friendly are we!

ZELDA: (positive and bouncing back) Great, and I’ll come up with something else for the logo then. Moving on, I’ve banged together a website too. Had to remember some stuff from my college course and it’s changed a bit, but I think I’ve come up with a good start. (Throwing it up on the projector). Here you go.

JAKOB: Wow, ummm…How many fonts have you got on that home page?

ZELDA: Well I wanted a modern look so I used Roboto for the Headings. I thought the main text needed to be friendly, so I’ve used Comic Sans for that and then Times New Roman for the menus and it may be Ariel at the bottom. Looks unique don’t you think?

BRYOCK: The colours are making me a bit queasy

ZELDA: See, already creating a response

JAKOB: I don’t think I’ve seen animated GIFs on a webpage page for quite some time

ZELDA: I read somewhere that moving images on pages encourage people to look further and click on stuff

JAKOB: (struggling to be kind) Is webpage design the best way to use your time Zelda? Perhaps we should get someone in on Marketing

ZELDA: You told me that we had to tighten our belts and that I shouldn’t employ anyone else at the moment.

JAKOB: I know, I know. However, that was because out of 21 interviews you employed 19 people and that’s only because the other 2 declined your offer. I just wanted to consolidate before you hired anyone else

ZELDA: They were all so good and lovely

JAKOB: I understand, really. But now you have a specific requirement to develop and propagate a brand, and no-one on hand with the right skills and experience. We could consider employing a design agency to…

ZELDA: (firmly) Our production, our people, our ideas, our innovation, our profits, our brand

JAKOB: sigh Yes, yes, of course. Keep it all in-house and under your control

ZELDA: (triumphantly) Exactly!

JAKOB: So let’s put the call out for someone to help. I’m happy to join you in the interviews

ZELDA: Bryock, get the advert out and get some top notch marketeer people here – spit, spot

BRYOCK: Spit, Spot?

JAKOB: Mary Poppins

BRYOCK: Is she a marketeer?

JAKOB: No, but she may be able to pull a miracle out of the bag!

BRYOCK: Oh…I’ll try and contact her.

A hand on the brand

CONTINUITY: Following a long and arduous search, Zelda meets with her new Marketing Guru in her office.

ZELDA: It’s great to have you join us Michaela. So glad you we’re able to start so quickly

MICHAELA: It’s lovely to be here. I’m technically still employed by my last company but I had a lot of accrued leave… So I’m on holiday and starting a new challenge

ZELDA: It’s brilliant. Just a few necessary things to sort out… You’re surname is… Bubbly?

MICHAELA: Buble (boob-lay)

ZELDA: (incredulous) Michaela Buble

MICHAELA: Yes I know

ZELDA: (excitedly cautious) Any relation to the international singing god?

MICHAELA: No, my mum did a stack of research when he came onto the scene. She saw it as a sign that our names were so close. However, he’s from Canada and my Buble ancestors hail from Pratt’s Bottom in Yorkshire.

ZELDA: Oh… Can you sing?

MICHAELA: Badly

ZELDA: Piano?

MICHAELA: Worse

ZELDA: Shame, but more importantly, any problem with me calling you Bubbles? Huge fan of Ab Fab, you see, and you are in marketing…

MICHAELA: I think I’m better than that bubbles

ZELDA: Thank heavens for that! Bubbles it is

MICHAELA: (unsure) Ok, If you insist

ZELDA: Well that’s broken the ice. Down to business. I explained in the interview where we needed to be. What are your thoughts as to your next steps?

MICHAELA: Oh, heck, wow, yikes. Well, that is down to business. Um, well, I think I need to understand the business a bit better, your values, products, people, style of communication, way of working. I need to get under the skin of the company so I can build a brand from within

ZELDA: That sounds great… Let’s go introduce you around and integrate you into the family.

Discussion Transcript MIKE: Hopefully, Zelda is feeling good about hiring Michaela Buble. Too subtle? Well, he's hoping Zelda won't cry me a river over Michaela's appointment. Okay, we'll get to the guest for the episode instead of trying to ram Michael Buble hits into the intro. Today, I'm delighted to have Tom Gamblin from Evident agency with us. Hi, Tom.

TOM: Hi, Mike.

MIKE: Hey. We've worked with Tom quite a bit. Tom, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself in Evident and why you're a good person to talk to us about all things design and brand.

TOM: Yes, sure. Evident is a design-led product company which specialize in really quite high-end product based software, so anything that's with us like an application, anything that users have to interact with or customers tend to buy or purchase, services and products through. We do face a lot of branding considerations with that stuff. It does tend to come up in the day-to-day of what we're doing because, obviously, it has a drastic effect on how customers perceive products.

MIKE: Absolutely. If people want to find out more, Tom, where should they look you up?

TOM: We're on all the social channels and things like that. Our website is www.evidentagency.com.

MIKE: Cool. We'll put a link to that in the show though. Before we reflect on what's happening at Sydeline, what are your early thoughts on what makes a brand?

TOM: It's an interesting question. I think it's something that probably gets overlooked. I say overlooked. I think it's probably approached in the wrong way by a lot of companies. It's the real significance of what a brand can do for your business. What makes a brand? I would say it's a really refined understanding of who the customer is. This is probably one of the key things a lot of people tend to get very concerned with the marque that sits on or a little of the logo.

The brand is actually an embodiment of the business and what it stands for. Understanding how your customers think and who they are is the biggest oversight that I think a lot of people make.

MIKE: Yes, it does. Do you find that people just start and end with the logo and don't really do anything else?

TOM: A lot, yes. It's really common that that can be the case. A lot of that comes from people-- It depends on the business size sometimes and the personnel that's running that business. I think the tendency is that they think that it's a lot shorter of a process than what it should be, a brand is. It should be a living and breathing embodiment of the company, but a lot of people do get hung up on on it being just a kind of, "Let's create a logo." It can sometimes just become very meaningless very quickly as just a logo.

MIKE: I guess logo is just a single element. It sounds like what you're saying is the brand is an embodiment of everything you do and everything you think about.

TOM: Yes. Branding in general is a lot to do with theory and application. The company and the people that work for the company understanding what everything stands for and what the business does, and who it tries to emulate to its customers, is up there as a really high importance.

MIKE: Very good point. I guess you can't pull that stuff just from a single logo or design that doesn't tell you all those things really, does it?

TOM: No. There are a lot very good designers that can knock together a very nice logo. If there's no real consideration around what it's supposed to do as an overarching message to customers, then it can become very pointless very quickly no matter how good it looks.

MIKE: Nice. Talking about the logo and looking at the approach that Sydeline have taken where they sit over and they've come up with looks, and then which looks like a Superman logo and then something gaudy, is it difficult to come up with a logo, do you think?

TOM: I think it's a very gray area on how long it takes to come up with a logo. I think that's probably one of the biggest confusions that sit around branding, is that-- To be completely honest, designers could sit there and they could spend 10 days trying to create a logo, 10 months trying to create a logo, or they could sit in 10 minutes and the first one they create might be going down the right route.

I think the how long is a piece of string. We use that terminology a lot when it comes to branding. I think the speed in which a logo takes to be created is more down to the understanding of the stakeholders, who's going to be signing off the logo, and them understanding that it's not for them, it's actually for the customers. That's another big issue, is that you do get a lot of-- I would call it self-invested opinions when it comes to branding. I think that that's a really common element with companies that are trying to produce their branding, is that people are--

MIKE: I was to say it's really interesting. How many organizations would you say, or your experience of the get-a-customer's-view on their logo before they decide that that's it?

TOM: It's a rarity, I would say. Normally, it's the companies that understand the value of what branding can give to them. They will want to focus group logos or anything to do with the branding. The reality of that is it really isn't that expensive to do it, and having customers give their feedback into the logo is probably one of the best ways of working in this. It's one of the best. It's all around the feedback that you could ever get because I think it brings out a lot of things that don't come out at board meetings or set around the table. Yes, it really is a rarity.

MIKE: That's a really good tip and a really good piece of advice for anybody thinking about that. We talked about that that's often a starting point. Are there any tips for what makes a really good logo or a really bad logo? Sydeline decided that a diamond would make it quality and sparkly and things like that, not only the things you would say are good or bad in terms of logo design.

TOM: There's a lot of best practice elements that come into trying, especially if you get a professional designer or a design company doing it, and then the framework around in which they develop the logo and the best practice that should be applied to it. Normally, the sanity checks that you can put on it to understand whether it's a quality logo or not, text or a logo that has an extreme amount of detail in it might not look very good when it's very small on a business, or it might not look very good when it's big.

The color that they used in it, they might be really inaccessible. It might be really difficult for certain people to read a big one. I think people overlook very quickly. They seem to find very garish colors or anything that is-- It can be really difficult for a certain proportion of the market or their customers to actually buy into it.

MIKE: Sure. I think what we're saying is there's an awful lot of things to think about, and perhaps doing it in Word or your local desktop publishing application is probably not the best approach. I want to move on from logos. We've already said it's perhaps not the most important thing. What other aspects, specifically a brand, do you think people should be considering?

TOM: Understanding the tone of voice of what the company should say. How it actually speaks to customers is important. The actual application of the brand is something that sometimes doesn't get a lot of consideration. When you go through a branding process, the classic way of working is that they'll put it onto a letterhead. Some companies will never get it used, considering that a lot of companies are now paperless. They'll put it on a van or something like that. We've seen some real tragic things happen. We've become really, really not-- We've really not thought through the process. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to mention them on the show.

MIKE: Probably best not. Just describe the scenario anyway there. Just say it.

TOM: For example, the name of the company.

MIKE: I think I know what you're talking about. Is it where the van doors open in an inappropriate way?

TOM: Yes.

MIKE: It reads as something else.

TOM: The logo starts with a P and ends with an S- [crosstalk]

MIKE: Okay, I see. [laughs]

TOM: ...like some men's genitalia. The application of things is a big thing. Some of those things, they don't get seen until it does get applied, but obviously having some understanding that it's got to be flexible as a brand is really important.

MIKE: In terms of that application, we said letterhead is not appropriate. You've mentioned one there, a vehicle livery as somewhere it might get applied. What other areas should people be thinking about when they need to apply their brand?

TOM: As in just what options that they should be thinking of.

MIKE: Their whereabouts. There's obviously printed materials, but are there any other kind of areas that you think we could--?

TOM: Yes. When brand guidelines are created for print material-- Print material is, I guess, a more of a traditional way of working because things like any color that gets used in it has to be a consideration to the theory of how that works, whenever you print a logo on a poster or any kind of magazine or anything like that. The printer requires a different process to how it's perceived digitally.

MIKE: What areas should people consider about applying it digitally? I guess that's the website, but there are probably some other places that it needs to go as well.

TOM: Obviously, a website seems like probably a more of the common one. In your footer of your emails, signatures and things like that, quite often we see them go in there. Obviously, it depends on what the business is. You might get logos required in adverts and stuff like that, if it's been recorded on any kind of digital panel.

MIKE: Just from a personal experience, we know that putting it in your sales support system and your CRMs, on your outbound emails as your branding, or putting it on your financial statements and invoices, they follow your brand and any number of other systems you might use. They all have these little aspects of configuration that might have a brand aspect, I guess.

TOM: Consistency is key with branding. Quite more often than not, having some kind of way of just keeping somewhat of a kind of a ring fence around how the brand is used, where it's used, and if anything does come up with things like-- Email is a really simple one, but like as a CRM. How it looks in there is also as important as anything else. Really, it's just consistency.

MIKE: I guess we're touching on another area around governance and systems, and how that's controlled, and the process around that, but that's a topic for another day. Moving on to what Sydeline have done. They've recruited a marketing person, the famous Michaela Buble. Do you think that's the way ahead in developing your brand and externally facing personas? Is a marketing person the best way to go?

TOM: I think it's a route that a lot of companies do take, funny enough. Marketing's a strange term because it can accomplish a lot and has so many different forms of it. I always believe in the specialist formula of making sure that if you're having some, wherever it came down to a marketing decision of how should this element be marketed, then a marketing person is the right person to go to. You might not always get the correct skill set from a marketer because, obviously, marketing is quite a broad subject.

MIKE: Yes, absolutely.

TOM: It seems to be a route that a lot of companies do take. I wouldn't necessarily be convinced it's the right one. Should I say? My take on it would be that you go and find a specific branding expert that understands exactly how branding should be executed and applied.

MIKE: I guess it all comes back to understanding your customer and who they are, and what you want to do for them. A marketing person may be the person to do that, but it might be people with other skills that might be better. It might be a copywriter, or a designer, or a user experience specialist, or any number of other skills really.

TOM: Yes. Dare I say that it's very unlikely to get someone that could do everything. Jack-of-all-trades is especially in the creative space, I think it's becoming a less and less popular term. I think having a real segregation of skills and really understanding what everyone is comfortable and best to be executed is part of the marketing, or the branding, or the product and the user experience is vital.

MIKE: Here's something that we've had experience of at Gydeline is doing a bit of a rebrand. We probably had a year of existence within our company before we rebranded, renamed, re-logoed, reestablished who our customers were, and went down a completely different road in terms of service and products and everything really. Is rebranding a good idea? If you think it is, when is it a good time to think about rebranding, do you think?

TOM: Well, I can speak very clearly on this because we've recently done one. Rebranding, I think depending on the size of the company, it's a very long-winded process, or it's something that can be done quite rapidly. It's very much dependent on the people that are involved. I think having a really clear understanding of the customers that are within your business and also the customers that you're looking to try and bring in, this is probably the most important thing to understand.

Rebranding as an idea, near on every company that I've ever known has done some sort of rebrand. You get them at different levels, obviously. You got Coca Cola that will make a tweak to one of the letters in the logo and they'll consider it a rebrand, or they'll change the color, skin.

MIKE: Yes, exactly.

TOM: Obviously, relatively to the company they are, that is quite a big and substantial change whereas your hairdressers are down the road doing a rebrand because they want to look a bit more upmarket. It's all well and good as long as that's who they're targeting.

MIKE: It's really useful. I think that the-- It probably goes back to what you said at the start of this chat, was it's starting with who are your customers and understanding them. If your customer wants to see something different, I guess that's the time to consider it. It seems to be what you're suggesting though.

TOM: Yes. All of those decisions should be driven by some real data. That's one thing that we've always championed the best way we can, is that no kind of decision should necessarily be made on assumptions. It's more or less going and asking a segmentation of your customer base whether they would like to see a rebrand, whether they like the current brand. That's a first step in the right direction in my opinion, but it's everything should be informed by some kind of real data.

MIKE: Good stuff. We're going to draw it to an end shortly, Tom, but before we do that, we always ask our guests to give us some top tips. What would be your top tips for people considering or looking at their organization's brand?

TOM: That's a good question, top tips. I would say that I would never rush into it. It's something that you're better off spending time doing, and de-risking by spending time towards the start and doing a discovery and analysis phase on what your customers want. It's almost more important than the actual executing of a logo. Mainly because, in part by doing that kind of pre-work, you are de-risking any kind of bad decisions that can be made later on.

If there's no one within the company that necessarily feels comfortable doing it or being involved in it, which is another big problem that can sometimes happen, is people think that doing a logo is easy. They think that anyone can do it. I think it's a case of everyone having a really comfortable understanding of whether they feel like they can execute this in the right way and that's going to actually create an impact. If there's no one there that can do it, then there's someone externally that can help you.

MIKE: It's a recurring theme we're getting from me. The people we're speaking to is get some advice and get some help. I know that's difficult for small businesses, but you're probably doing yourself a favor in the long run. Saving that little bit of money is not going to pay off getting those skills and expertise. It's probably a good thing to do.

TOM: Then just going on what you've said there is every designer, or every good designer, should have an understanding of being able to create a return of investment for their customers. In the same way that most companies use an accountant and they treat it like they're saving money by having an accountant, which is what I get it we should do, a designer should have that same approach to the project in the sense that they want to see the logo create impact.

Even if you're a small company, you shouldn't really be afraid of reaching out to a specialist and asking them what kind of help is there because they will have an invested interest in trying to help small companies, or most of them do anyway, I should say.

MIKE: That's brilliant. Listen Tom, that's been absolutely brilliant. Great speech as always. Thanks for taking the time to join us on Blue Sky Stinking podcast. It just reminds me to say to everybody thanks for listening. Please like, share, follow, comment. Tell everybody about it. If you've got any ideas for future topics, then please let us know. Until then, we'll see you next time in Waterloo.

with special thanks to...

Tom Gamblin is a Founder and Director of Evident Agency, a digital product and innovation studio specialising in human centered design and technology. Tom and his team designed the user experience for our software and has a impressive catalogue of household names as customers.

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Timings * 00:20 - Scene 8.1 - Patently Obvious * 02:56 - Scene 8.2 - Rock and a hard place * 06:34 - Discussion with Jacob Cunningham, Bright Solicitors * 08:21 - What is Intellectual Property (IP) * 09:03 - Types of Intellectual Property rights * 10:18 - Who owns intellectual property * 11:28 - Why protect the things that you've created? * 12:45 - Benefits when buying or selling a business * 13:27 - Examples of where IP has been a problem * 14:50 - Dangers of copying on-line documents * 16:00 - Risks surrounding Intellectual property * 17:45 - What should Sydeline have done? * 20:05 - The Patent Tests * 21:43 - Can you Patent software? * 22:52 - Next steps for Sydeline on the matter of the Patent? * 24:40 - Top Tips for those who've never considered their IP * 26:00 - Watch what your using from the internet * 27:57 - What's next?

Useful Information Researching existing registered IP (@00:00) * Registered Trademarks - Search site (.gov.uk) * Registered Patents - Search site (.gov.uk) * Registered Designs - Search site (Designview) * Orphan Works - Search site (.gov.uk) * The Intellectual Property Keystone - Article (Gydeline)

Intellectual property guidance (@00:00) * Trademarks - Site (.gov.uk) * Patents - Site (.gov.uk) * Designs - Site (.gov.uk) * Copyright - Site (.gov.uk)

Top tips for ...(@00:00) * Undergo an IP Audit - Get someone to help * Become familiar with the guidance * Take advice from an IP professional * Simple patent validation test

Episode script Patently Obvious Rock and a Hard Place Patently Obvious

CONTINUITY: Zelda and Jakob stand and watch as the factory starts to output the first saleable products.

JAKOB: Well, that’s a sight for sore eyes

ZELDA: (whist-fully) Isn’t it though

JAKOB: Took quite a bit to get it to production. Really not sure why we didn’t get another company to do the manufacturing

ZELDA: This is our product. Our production, our people, our ideas, our innovation, our profits

JAKOB: My money

ZELDA: Our money! Remember I have used nearly all my savings

JAKOB: And the mortgage on your apartment?

ZELDA: In time, if needed, when you run out

BRYOCK: (approaching) Ms Zero

ZELDA: You can call me Zelda, Bryock

BRYOCK: (quote time) “There can be no prestige without mystery, for familiarity breeds contempt.”

JAKOB: Who said that?

BRYOCK: Charles De Gaulle

JAKOB: Gotta love the French!

BRYOCK: Ms Zero, you have had this in todays actual mail. Haven’t seen many before, but I think it’s a letter

ZELDA: Very funny, what is it?

BRYOCK: It appears to suggest that you are in violation of the Patents Act

JAKOB: What? Give that here. It’s from Dribble and Froth – aren’t they your dads legal troop?

ZELDA: Rings a bell, what are they saying?

JAKOB: They say that “It has been brought to our attention that you have commenced production of a product based on a registered patent without licence, agreement or consideration”

ZELDA: What the hell?

JAKOB: I knew it. When he said you’d nicked his product, I should have pinned him down then.

ZELDA: When was that?

JAKOB: You know, that night he invited us over for a meal together… I KNEW IT! What an idiot

ZELDA: But he’s my dad

JAKOB: He’s teaching you a lesson

ZELDA: He’s my dad

JAKOB: He’s been a businessman longer

ZELDA: My dad!!

JAKOB: Look, there’s probably been a bit of a misunderstanding or this is a really bad prank

ZELDA: Dad!!!

JAKOB: I think you may be in shock. Bryock, could you take… Ms Zero…to her office please and get her a drink. Keep an eye on her – I’ve got to take a stroll to Zero’s.

Rock and a Hard Place

CONTINUITY: Jakob enters the offices of Zero’s Heroes. However, he is unable to walk straight up to Nero’s office, instead having to present himself to a receptionist

JAKOB: (surprised and hesitant) Oh, hello…I’d like to see Mr Zero please

RECEPTIONIST: Do you have an appointment?

JAKOB: sigh No, no I don’t – would he be free now, he usually doesn’t book anything around Pop Master

RECEPTIONIST: I will phone up and check. May I ask your name please

JAKOB: (through gritted teeth) Jakob Oakstock

RECEPTIONIST: (On the phone) Hi Lucy, is Mr Zero available to see a Mr Jakob Oakstock… Sure, I’ll wait… Uh huh, yep, ok, I’ll tell him. (Talking to Jakob) Mr Zero will see you at 10:45, if you could wait. Can I get you a drink of some kind?

JAKOB: (still through gritted teeth) No thank you

(Tick tock)

RECEPTIONIST: You may go up now Mr Oakstock, Mr Zero is in his office – I understand you know the way.

JAKOB: Yes, yes I do…Thank you

(Knock, knock, knock)

JAKOB: Nero, What is the intention of… (Sees someone else is un the office with Nero) Oh, hello.

NERO: Morning Jakob, this is Devon Dribble. She’s my Intellectual Property lawyer

DEVON: Yes, yes, we at Dribble and Froth work tirelessly to protect the patents of Zero’s Heroes along with helping with Trademarking, copyright law and the like.

NERO: Devon, this is Jakob Oakstock. He and Zelda Zero own Sydeline.

DEVON: Oh yes, yes, yes. We have just written to you about a breach we spotted.

JAKOB: Breach?

DEVON: Yes, yes – We noted from your marketing material that you were using one of Mr Zero’s patented designs and we sent you a letter to that end

JAKOB: I noticed (waving the letter in the air)

NERO: You see, I’ve just got back from conference and Dribble and Froth have authority to act on my behalf to protect the assets of Zero’s Heroes.

DEVON: Yes, yes, Once we had found the evidence of a breach, we launched an investigation and sent you the letter. We also advised Zero’s Heroes to tighten their visitor security.

JAKOB: (deliberate) You were aware that YOUR DAUGHTER was repurposing the design Nero

NERO: Yes, I was

DEVON: No, no… did you establish terms for use of the patent between the two entities Mr Zero?

NERO: (embarrassed) No, no we didn’t

DEVON: Yes, yes, Well that is something that needs resolving immediately before these products hit the market. We will need to decide on the compensation, consideration, possibly royalties, attestations and acknowledgements

NERO: (embarrassed) Yes, you’re right of course

JAKOB: Can’t we just come to an informal agreement, I want to avoid any further delays in coming to market

DEVON: Yes, yes, no doubt you will be delayed. I would always recommend a formalised agreement to protect my client. I would also hate to see a precedent being set between your two organisations – what would stop Sydeline from starting production of one of Zero’s Heroes more successful lines without due consideration?

NERO: Errr, true…

JAKOB: (resigned) Ok, ok. Can we sit down now and get this underway. I cannot bear to see any further delays.

Intellectual Property Protection Discussion Transcript MIKE: So, once again, Jakob ends up picking up the pieces from Sydeline's adhoc way of working. But Intellectual Property is something that many organisations don’t fully appreciate or understand. So, to help throw some light on the topic we have Jacob Cunningham, Associate Chartered Legal Executive from Bright Solicitors with us - welcome to Blue Sky Stinking Jacob.

JACOB: Thank you Mike, pleasure to be here

MIKE: Before we dive into the heady world of IP, it would be great to know a little bit about yourself and about what Brights do.

JACOB: Sure. As you mentioned there Mike, I’m an Associate Chartered Legal Executive. I work here at Brights and we specialise in commercial law, so we’re a commercial legal firm. I myself work in the commercial team and I specialise in commercial terms. So all sorts of contracts really. That could be a range of consumer contracts, something like a privacy policy, or supply of goods and services or it can be something more business to business orientated, such as a services agreement, something more bespoke. We also deal with corporate bits, so business sales, whether share purchases, asset purchases, and employment law as well. We’ve got a very good employment lawyer here. And we also deal with matters of debt recovery and litigation. Lots of different sectors.

MIKE: It’s a real broad mix of legal services

JACOB: Absolutely

MIKE: And your typical customer, are they small, medium, large enterprise

JACOB: We do tend to see a lot of small businesses, SME’s predominantly. Particularly with corporate matters we do see large fir.

MIKE: So a lot of experience with small and start as we’ve got with Sydeline. We’ve just heard Zelda, Nero and Jakob in the midst of discussion around a patent. Before we dive into that, how would you describe IP to someone who is unfamiliar with the term

JACOB: Intellectual Property or IP, if you like, are essentially the intangible assets of a business. What I mean by that is the opposite to the tangible assets. So you have premises, maybe vehicles and stock and things like that. So physical objects, that’s your assets. Well the intangible assets and the things you create or invent. The look and feel of your products and that can be protected in a number of ways. You have 4 specific intellectual property rights. The first is, and let’s take an example, let’s look at a car. We have a car, now you have the manufacturers badge on the car - it might be a Ford or BMW--

MIKE: Or Rolls Royce in your case

JACOB: That would be the logo and that would be trademarked. That would be one intellectual property right that would be protected on that product. So if you look deeper into the car - you look at the mechanics of the car. They may have a very unique way of extracting gases from the exhaust - a particularly fuel efficient way of combustion. That would then be protected by a patent. That would be an invention and that’s new and innovative to that particular product, to that manufacturer. And that would be a patent, and that’s another intellectual property right that would exist on that product.

Also, if you’re sat in your car, the look and the feel of thing. How it looks and the design. That can also be protected, that would be a design right and that’s another aspect of intellectual property. And then if you were to look further and look at the manual, for example. That would have a written text in there and that would be subject to copyright law. So that couldn’t be copied, the text and the rights in respect of that. So that’s the four main types

MIKE: I think I was really interested and struck by a word you said earlier on there. Helps me think of IP as something you’ve created. Because it’s not always obvious whether something is a piece of intellectual property. But I’d like to think, if I’ve created it then it could be and that starts my thinking. I’ve created something, could it be IP.

JACOB: And that’s a very interested point, Mike. There was a shift, where the person that commissioned the work would usually own the copyright to it. That’s shifted now and basically the ownership of copyright and works is on the creator. If you’ve created a piece of work. That could be a piece of text, an image, it could be a piece of artwork, a piece of music, a jingle if you like. You would have a right in that piece of work from the outset. You don’t need to register that. You have that right in that work. You can further protect that, of course, but it is a right that already exists.

MIKE: That leads us nicely onto the next point... Why is it important to organisations to protect the things they’ve created?

JACOB: There’s a number of reasons why MIke, but primarily, it will be to prevent third parties or other businesses nicking you ideas. You have a good idea and you want to protect that to avoid somebody else saying “This person is reaping a massive economic benefit from that idea, why don’t we just copy it and we can also capitalise on that idea.” So really, it preventing third parties from using that idea and unjustly benefiting from it.

MIKE: Is it fair to say that it’s important to get the protection in place and it is something you can use at a later date should somebody steal your ideas? Stopping them stealing the ideas is a tricky thing isn’t it?

JACOB: There’s lots of areas you’ve got to think about there. The prevention side of things. Then you’ve got to consider the added value that protecting that copyright and those ideas will give to your business. Essentially, from my perspective as a commercial lawyer, I will be looking from a due diligence perspective, if I was buying a business. I’d be looking at the target business, I’d be looking specifically whether they own the intellectual property rights, their website, things like that. If they’ve got all that registered and they’ve got a document to prove that they are the owner or they are the licensee of that intellectual property. Then that’s a big tick. As a buyer, we’re protected once we take on that business. The good will of that business and all those intellectual property rights. It adds values and exclusivity, if you like.

MIKE: Have you any examples of where you seen IP damaged or lost or worse?

JACOB: There’s lots of examples. Here’s a Brights, we have a couple of instances without naming, of course. We had a cafe, who had effectively not done any intellectual property due diligence at all. Went ahead, came up with a name, branded everything, came up with all the napkins and everything else they needed, and then they had the dreaded “cease and desist” letter. They were infringing somebody else's intellectual property rights. Unfortunately, the result of that is a great cost to them.. They had to withdraw everything and rebrand. As a startup, and a lot of the cost is in the start up. The costs of producing your branding and everything else. To have to withdraw all that and reprint everything was very detrimental. Fortunately the business survived, which is great news. Because, obviously we don’t want to see businesses fail with it’s a genuine “I didn’t think about”

MIKE: It’s easily done. We’ve had customers, and this is probably a widespread problem, customers are looking for a document or a policy and they cut and paste it from somewhere they found online. And then they use that document, or they put that notice or that statement on their own website. It’s really easy to find out where people have copied your things. Then the next thing you know you're getting the letter through the door from their solicitor saying you’ve infringed us in some way.

JACOB: Funny you should say that Mike. We’ve actually had a matter of that exact nature here where we had drafted some terms and conditions for a business and they had published their terms, as you should. They’d been ripped of, copied by another business, clearly plagiarised. The matter was brought to our attention and we were on the other side of things and we were sending the cease and desist and we were on the other side enforcing it.

MIKE: And you could do that because the protection was in place.

JACOB: Yes, absolutely

MIKE: Ok, great. We’ve touched on some of these but would do you think the main risks are that surround the various types of Intellectual property

JACOB: Interesting question when you talk about risks. Especially from a small business point of view, where there are a limited amount of funds available. There are things that you can do to find out whether you have, you own, intellectual property rights on your ideas or whether you’re infringing on anybody else's rights. You would undertake an IP audit. You would investigate, probably best to instruct a solicitor, an IP advisor to do that for you to ensure that’s done properly.

MIKE: What are the basic things you would cover in that

JACOB: As mentioned, we have the 4 specific intellectual property rights. 3 of them are registrable - you have a registered trademark, registered patents and you can also register design rights. You can search, there are journals available that contain those registers and you can search that on the intellectual property office website. gov.uk, it’s contained in there. There’s also some guidance published by the government on the orphaned works diligence search guidance. So there are things that you can easily access that you can do and have a look and search.

MIKE: So companies can do a little background reading, get a base level of understanding before they then come speak to some specialists. We’ll look up some of those links and provide them in the show notes to have a look at.

JACOB: Sure, that would be useful.

MIKE: Getting back to Sydeline - what do you think they should have done?

JACOB: This a little further along and it’s useful because we do have a registered patent here that they’ve alluded to, used or repurposed if you like. So what they should have done is approached the original owner, registered owner, of that patent, being Zero I do believe, and entered negotiations. So, what you would be looking to do here, probably the most practical way forward, would be to licence that patent. Which would be a formal document to set out the scope of that licence. It would also set out remuneration. Specifically with patents as intellectual property rights, you want to look at a percentage of what revenue is then earned from that. Because you’re using that right, producing products and then selling that. If you sell very few products then the remuneration or licence fee payable should be less. So really it should be a percentage of that as a royalty. And that’s probably the most sensible way forward. In terms of litigation, which is notable and should be said, it that the courts will look to see that any claimant has engaged in mediation before they will accept a claim. So that’s very important, there’s an obligation to resolve matters amicably, outside the court--

MIKE: So Zero’s Heroes should be having a conversation with Sydeline saying you’ve infringed our patent, let’s have a conversation. We’re perhaps prepared to offer you a licence agreement. What might that look like.

JACOB: And that would be the usual route forward. That would be to document a deal, to say that “happy for you to use that but you have to pay us a royalty”

MIKE: A lot of people won’t know that you can use other peoples patents and designs but there will be a consideration of that. And that feeds into the Sydeline Bottom line. They need to, if they’re going to use Zero’s Heroes patents, they need to consider that there will be a reduction in what they will earn, for the privilege of using that .

JACOB: That would be an additional cost then

MIKE: We’ve mentioned patents quite a lot they’re patents are misunderstood. Can you talk about what can be patented and what can’t be patented?

JACOB: Patents are quite a complex area because they’re usually very technical. It’s got to be a new an innovative way of achieving something, an invention, literally. There are exceptions to that. Where something is actually a discovery, so something already exists and you just discover it. Also schemas and mathematical methods and things like that are excluded. Generally, the rule is, it has to be new there has to be an inventive step and it has to be capable of industrial application. And that’s the three main rules. The long and short of that is it has to be new, innovative and it shouldn’t be in the public domain, so it shouldn’t be known to the public, so within your organisation.

MIKE: That’s a really useful three steps. We’ll make sure we include those steps in the notes

JACOB: Thats in the Patents Act, that’s the definition of a patent. That would be the first point of call in terms of registration. To look at those three arms, that test to see if it constitutes a patent or not.

MIKE: Bringing it back to Gydeline for a moment. We’ve done a little work in the patents space and there are some nuance considerations in the software space. Lots of people want to get into software and development and design software. Thos bits of software you can patent and those you can’t you could be using elements of bits of code and interface and the way the interface interacts with hardware. Have you got a view on that?

JACOB: The legislation specifically excludes software. Well, it doesn’t say software as such. I can’t remember the exact working, but effectively software. Actually specifically excluded and it’s a bit of a misconception with patents. It doesn’t mean that software can’t enable the invention. Whether that forms part and parcel of what the invention is--

MIKE: The software is part of something new

JACOB: yes, the software is part of the new thing that been invented. And thats a key part of it, so it not software in itself, it has to satisfy those three test and not be excluded.

MIKE: So if you we’re acting for Sydeline in this, there’d be some confusion as we’d have too Jacobs, but ignoring that for the time being. If you were acting for Sydeline, what would be you advice on what Zelda and Jakob need to do next, next steps?

JACOB: I’d be wanting to look at the cease and desist letter, which is the letter that’s been sent to then. What that letter say because there may be an intention in there for Zero to enter into a licensing agreement. Or, alternatively, perhaps even assign the intellectual property rights. What I mean by that is that they would then become the owner of those rights rather than just being a licensee of them. And that’s probably the gold standard, because if you’re going to produce a product and you have substantial investment in that product then a licence can effectively be taken away and if that is the case then you’re exposed a little bit there. Really would prefer an assignment here, but next tier down, a licence

MIKE: Especially if the other organisation isn’t using it

JACOB: Yes, that would be the first port of call. To get an agreement in place and also I be looking in that agreement to make sure that there are some indemnities in respect of all that as well, in case that patent, or any other intellectual property rights, ends up infringing others rights as well. That can be a case and something we’d like to cover contractually. Perhaps even looking at the insurance side of things to minimise any risk there.

MIKE: Finally, and back to the bigger Intellectual Property picture, what would be your top tips to an organisation who hasn’t taken any steps in protecting their IP?

JACOB: Well my first port of call would be to do an IP audit. Have a look at what you have, what you have created and make a note of things you’ve come up with. So business name is the first thing that everyone thinks of is their business name. Be looking to check if theres a registered trademark that might infringe. What you’d need to make sure is that any trademarks are in the sector you’re trading in, because you can have more than one trademark with the same name

MIKE: Polo Car, Polo mint, Polo shirts,

JACOB: Of course, but it all depends on what sector of business they’re in. So that’s a consideration there. Undergo that audit. Review the Intellectual Property Office guidance. Have a look at the journals that are available that hold all the registered patents and registered trademarks. Then go and take some advice from a professional. And something that’s more relevant now than it has been, because you do tend to see, that there are little plugs in the market, people have come in and-- a good example of this is website builders like Wix. They provide software facilities that help you to create your own logo. Actually these are quite good things because they undertake all that due diligence and make sure everything's licensed properly. So that’s something you can rely on contractually. So, if you subscribe to a professional outfit like that, and use all the images that are provided to you through that platform, then actually what you’re ensuring is that you can rely on their terms.

MIKE: Thats a really useful thing, if you’re using Wix or--

JACOB: So don’t google stuff and just take things from google. That’s probably something not to do.

MIKE: As a tips for someone looking to get some design works created is to make sure, as part of that, there checking that and helping you make sure you’re not infringing anyone else

JACOB: Use professionals whenever you can. There’s a reason why they’re professionals

MIKE: We keeping coming back to this. Do an IP Audit, do some base line reading yourself, but then, there are a lot of nuances I’m picking up. We could continue this conversation for a very long time around any number of different areas. So get that advice. That’s been great Jacob for your time and Bright’s for hosting our conversation. This is a subject that should get people pondering whether or not they’ve enough to protect some of the key parts of their organisation. We’ll put some of those useful links on the show page and your feedback, suggestions, questions from anybody would be great. Like, share, following, send it to all your friends and family. That would absolutely brilliant.

In the next episode, the Sydeline Logo, which is intellectual property or course, is found to have it’s own super-unique issue. Join us and our branding expert in the next episode... “Super Trouper”

[/glossary_exclude]

with special thanks to...

Jacob Cunningham is an Associate Chartered Legal Executive from Bright Solicitors in Plymouth. Jacob's expertise is in contract and corporate matters, including commercial agreements, asset/share purchases and finance.

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Timings * 00:15 - Scene 7.1 - This time it's Personnel * 05:24 - Scene 7.2 - I don't like Mondays * 08:35 - Discussion with Donna Negus and Oliver Watson * 10:50 - Initial thoughts on "Winging it" in recruitment * 13:20 - The "Silver Spoon" and the "Scrapper" candidates * 13:50 - Appropriate Locations * 16:33 - Interview question no-no's * 18:05 - Is it all about a degree? * 21:00 - Good questions * 22:00 - The recruitment process * 26:57 - The social media effect * 28:45 - The impact of bad recruitment processes * 29:44 - Scoring candidate attributes * 31:04 - Discrimination through nicknames * 36:20 - Top tips (see below) * 43:27 - Difference between small and large organisation * 46:35 - Next hot topic? * 48:05 - What's next?

Useful Information Recruitment (@8:35) * Recruiting Staff Guide - Document (ACAS) * Recruitment Guidance - Article (ACAS) * Various CIPD Blog Articles - Hashtag index (CIPD) * Recruiting and Hiring - Page (gov.uk)

Getting advice * Sekoya Specialist Employment Services * Watson Evans Associates

Top tips for Recruitment (@36:20) * Make time your friend * Prepare to be consistent * Make sure you understand what you're recruiting * Create person and job documentation * Find the best routes to finding candidates * Pay someone to support your recruitment activities * Establish good training, like equality * Know your structures (organisation, reporting, etc) * Properly induct and training new people * Ensure new staff members are fully supported * Have good documentation available to all

Episode script This time it's Personnel I don't like Mondays This time it's Personnel

CONTINUITY: A call from one of her oldests friends has Zelda coming back to the Dog and Bone for a catch-up

PENNY: ZELDA! Woo hoo! Over here sweetie. How totes amazeballs to see you!

ZELDA: Penny… How are you doing? It’s been… Well… Absolutely ages! Who is this?

PENNY: Zelda, this is Bryock (Bree-ock), my oldest

ZELDA: Get away with you, little Brioche

BRYOCK: (serious) A brioche is a roll!

ZELDA: Well noted – and you used to be soft and plump too… when you were younger that is. But what a handsome chap you’ve turned into

BRYOCK: Well, thank you very much.

ZELDA: What brings you into my neck of the woods. You still in Surrey?

PENNY: Oh yes, it’s lovely living in the Garden of England

ZELDA: I thought that was Kent?

PENNY: Close enough darling, it’s close enough. Anyway I saw from your Facebook posts that you were starting exciting new things

ZELDA: Oh yes, yes, yes. I am. It’s amazing being your own boss and having complete control over everything. I am going to rock the business world with innovative approach and ideas.

PENNY: That sounds marvellous Zel. I saw you were hiring too.

ZELDA: Oh yes, interviews start next week

PENNY: Are you well practiced in your techniques? I’ve seen some travesties in my time in HR in the city.

ZELDA: I’d forgotten you were a personnel expert

PENNY: Human Capital darling – Personnel is so last century

ZELDA: Right.. Human Capital it is. You still at it?

PENNY: No, no, gave that up with child number 4, Robbie is doing so well with his business, I don’t need to work. I’m a mummy of leisure.

ZELDA: F…f…four kids… (turning to Bryock) bet you’re still the favourite?

BRYOCK: Piyush Goyal once said, “It’s equal opportunity for all, and we don’t play favourites.”

ZELDA: (pausing) Oh, right, well that’s nice. Are you studying English or Politics or something?

BRYOCK: I’ve just finished my Philosophy BA in York

ZELDA: FINISHED… Holy smoke Penny! You’ve got a child that’s finished University

PENNY: I know, we’re so proud of him. He’s the first Penhalegun to make it through University. He’s looking for his first job now.

ZELDA: Really, what do you fancy doing Brioche, sorry, Bryock?

BRYOCK: I think Philosophy has prepared me so well for any number of jobs, Marketing, Legal, Politics, the list goes on.

PENNY: You should try your interview techniques on Bryock Zel, try it, go on!

ZELDA: Oh, ha, well, yess, I could do (clears throat and puts on serious voice) Well Mr Penhalegun, what do you think you would bring to being… Errr… My…. Ummm Personal Assistant

BRYOCK: I’m reliable and polite. I have a wonderful way with people which puts them at ease. I have worked in high stress, customer facing roles which demand high performance and accuracy. I believe that I would make an excellent… “Executive Assistant” by making you more efficient, and look brilliant even when you’re not there.

ZELDA: Oh wow! That’s quite an answer

PENNY: (Excitedly dropping the posh voice) Right, see, he’s perfect… Go on, ask him another.

ZELDA: Right, ok… A hard one – What’s your biggest weakness?

BRYOCK: (proving very well prepared) I struggle with sticking out in the crowd. I prefer to make those around me look good before putting myself forward for honour and glory. So I would give too much in making YOU look good.

ZELDA: Well, that is wonderful, (joking) Congratulations Mr Penhalegun, welcome aboard, you’ve got the job, when can you start.

BRYOCK: Monday!

ZELDA: What?

PENNY: Oh that’s wonderful Zel, I never dreamt that you’d give him a job

ZELDA: What?

BRYOCK: Yes, thank you very much Ms Zero, I appreciate your faith in me

ZELDA: But!

PENNY: We’ll have to find somewhere for you to live. Your uncle Wilson lives around here, perhaps we should pop in for a visit. I’m so excited Zel, thank you, thank you, thank you.

ZELDA: Errr, no… Prob…lem. That’s… Um…great

PENNY: I’ll get us a bottle of prosecco to celebrate…

I don't like Mondays

CONTINUITY: It’s time to start recruting properly. So, finally, in the new meeting room in Sydeline’s premises, Zelda sits down with Katherine before seeing their first interviewee for the day.

ZELDA: This is nerve-wracking

KATHERINE: It can be daunting, but as long as you’re clear on the requirements for the job and have some good questions to find out whether the candidate fits, you should be fine.

ZELDA: Ah, I was going to wing it

KATHERINE: Alright, a tad risky but we’ll cope, for what role are we interviewing today

ZELDA: All of them

KATHERINE: (bit stunned) Have you any role profiles I can look at?

ZELDA: Not done anything like that yet

KATHERINE: (quite stunned) Riiight! What are the questions you would like me to ask?

ZELDA: Whatever you think fits the moment?

KATHERINE: (very stunned) So, hold on, the next person in, is…?

ZELDA: Not sure, I told people to come in this morning and Bryock will give them a number and I’ll call them on a first come, first served basis

KATHERINE: No application form

ZELDA: No, so old hat

KATHERINE: No CV

ZELDA: So 20th century

KATHERINE: Winging it

ZELDA: Yep! Dig into their inner psyche with insightful questions and then see if their face fits and what kind of job would suit them. Then I’ll make them a role to fit

KATHERINE: I dare to ask, do you have a list of roles or organisation chart

ZELDA: Kat… Kat… Katherine – We are a modern organisation, with modern processes and innovative practices

KATHERINE: (grabbing to a glimmer of hope) So there is a process

ZELDA: In my head

KATHERINE: Any documentation at all for me to reference

ZELDA: Nope… Revel in the “Winging it” methodology

(Tap, tap, tap, Bryock opens the open before being invited)

BRYOCK: (in bizarre fake voice) Ms Eleanor Capitan, Eleanor may I introduce Zelda Zero and Kath Kash

KATHERINE: KATHERINE!

BRYOCK: Ooops, sorry Katherine (backing out the door)

ZELDA: Elle! (Giving her a hug) I never knew you were coming in for an interview. I thought you worked overseas. (Shouting) BRYOCK!

BRYOCK: (Reenters the room) Yyyyeeesssss!?

ZELDA: Could you make us all coffees please, Kat, sorry Katherine, Elle? (looking inquisitively – both nod)

BRYOCK: Your wish is my command

KATHERINE: Black for me please

BRYOCK: (long pause) How do you make black coffee… It’s usually… Well… Coffee coloured?

KATHERINE: (incredulous silence) Don’t add milk

BRYOCK: Got it K… Ooo like the Men in Black (shuts door)

KATHERINE: sigh

ZELDA: Elle, Elle, Elle. So good to see you again. Kat..ter…rine, Elle is a financial whizz, we just have to have her on our books.

KATHERINE: Can I ask a few financial questions?

ZELDA: Don’t bother. Elle, you’re hired (laughing) Oh I sound like Alan Sugar. When can you start?

Recruiting Staff Discussion Transcript RUSSELL: We have recruitment, Sydeline style. I wonder what our guests will have to say about Zelda's approach. Yes, you heard correctly. Two guests today in the form of Donna Negus from Sekoya Specialist Employment Services and Oliver Watson from Watson Evans Associates. Welcome to you both.

DONNA: Thank you very much for inviting us.

OLIVER: Thank you, Russell.

RUSSELL: Thank you. I'm intrigued as to how the blazes this is going to work. Whilst I work at that challenge, perhaps Oliver could you kick off a little bit about yourself?

OLIVER: Thank you, Russell. I run Watson Evans Associates where we focus on helping our clients find their next key employee to enhance their teams. The flip side of that is, we help people find their next challenge. We work on a variety of positions in different sectors from accountancy through to HR, and we are small enough to be able to tailor our service precisely to each individual role and company needs.

RUSSELL: Brilliant. Thanks. Donna, I've heard you've announced yourself as the best looking solicitor in the room. Think that is the case today as well. What's your story?

DONNA: Given that I'm the only solicitor here. Yes, absolutely. [laughs]

RUSSELL: Hey, I wasn't saying that.

DONNA: Thanks, Russell. I'm an employment solicitor but I have two hats. I run an employment business, an HR consultancy called Sekoya. There are six of us and we provide support to employers from those who have one employee all the way up to those who have hundreds of employees. We do everything from writing contracts to writing handbooks to dealing with disciplinaries, grievances, insider trading issues, very complex compliance issues. Anything at all really that relates to people and how you manage people. We do that all the way through from conception to people taking on an employee all the way through to ending their career with that particular business and moving on to something new.

RUSSELL: Okay. We've certainly got the qualifications to talk about this particular episode. Let's turn our attention back to what we've heard at Sy deline. Any initial observations about Zelda's style?

OLIVER: Haphazard.

[laughter]

DONNA: It's fairly unique, that's for sure. Although you'd say it's fairly unique, the reality is--

OLIVER: I was going to say half the problem might be that it's not that unique, and that's perhaps the problem. It's that it should be unique and not applied at all.

RUSSELL: No. Unfortunately, it's stuff you've seen, I expect. I must admit, I've seen myself.

DONNA: Unfortunately though when people do take this haphazard approach- also known as "winging it"- it's neither good for the business nor the person who's coming for the job who's expecting someone to have put a bit of time and effort into making sure that they're recruiting the right person because they're often perhaps leaving a job that they love but want to progress in their careers. If the person who's interviewing them doesn't even know what they want, then that's a huge waste of time for everybody and actually, really quite sad.

RUSSELL: Yes. Disrespectful to the process.

DONNA: It is.

RUSSELL: We heard Bryock's recruitment, let's call it politely, was somewhat manipulated by Penny, his mother. Were there any alarm bells that rung at either of you there?

DONNA: I think quite a few went off as we were listening to that. Didn't it? From the complete lack of process through to the fact that Zelda mentioned she's already got interviews lined up for later in the week. There's a whole myriad, isn't there? His mother as well has clearly prepared him for those potential questions coming and his answers are so flowing and so scripted and beautifully put. You think then the old human capital has had a bit of an input there, don't you?

RUSSELL: Yes.

DONNA: I mean, there are huge red flags, aren't there? I mean, for a start, why were they meeting just offhand in a random situation when clearly he needs a job? He's clearly overqualified for the job that he's going to, or he thinks he is. I mean, we can talk about this later but it's interesting. There's a real thought process around two different types of candidates for a job; one who has a-- I can't believe I'm an employment lawyer saying this but silver spoon and the other one that's called the scrapper. We can go into this later but clearly, he's somebody heading into a role with somebody who is very, very unprepared for anything. That, in itself, is a recipe for disaster.

RUSSELL: What about the location? Obviously, it was taking place in a pub.

DONNA: I've seen disciplinaries happen in a pub. I sat behind one the other day.

RUSSELL: Sat behind a hearing somebody else is doing?

DONNA: Literally, yes. Nothing surprises me, I'm afraid. It's not ideal, is it?

OLIVER: No, it's not the most professional environment for an interview of any description, whether it's manipulated and created by a third party or not. It's simply wrong, isn't it? I have heard of employers conducting first-round interviews away from the office environment but it's not usually in a busy pub environment where various distractions are going on behind it. It might be a quiet little cafe and a neutral ground conversation sort of interview rather than--

RUSSELL: Yes, which can sometimes generate a more relaxed environment for you than the formal interview.

OLIVER: Exactly. It would be a part of a process, not the entire process. I think it would be a little bit more in depth than, "Here's my boy, ask him a question." "There's the answer." "Good, you got a job."

DONNA: Absolutely.

RUSSELL: Cutting Zelda some slack, I think she was joking when she offered him the job.

DONNA: She wasn't expecting it. Exactly.

RUSSELL: She wasn't brave enough to turn around to her lifelong friend whom she hadn't seen for years. How good a friend she was? I don't know. To be able to say, "No. Actually, I was just joking and perhaps you'd like to line up properly," or something. That proves the thought process.

DONNA: I think the other thing about the having an interview in a pub-- I have known many people who've done this and have been able to try and explain it away, that it helps somebody feel at ease because it's in a very neutral environment, et cetera, et cetera. There is a huge amount of research that says that somebody's decision as to whether or not they're going to employ somebody is made within the first 10 seconds or the first half a minute, and then they spend the rest of the interview trying to either prove or disprove their gut feeling about that person.

The problem is that by having an interview in such a relaxed environment is that the person is not expecting that. The person coming for an interview is expecting a formal situation, they've built themselves up for that, and then to take them completely out of that is almost unfair, aside from all the other issues over data protection and all those sorts of things of discussing things in public. That's just another thing thrown into the mix, really.

RUSSELL: In terms of questions, we heard a couple of questions from Zelda there. What are good questioning and what are bad questioning techniques for interviews?

OLIVER: Good questions and bad questions?

RUSSELL: Are there no-nos, I suppose would be my--?

DONNA: From a legal point of view, obviously any questions around somebody's family circumstances, even-- You can throw in general questions such as, where do you want to be in five years time? It's always a good idea to know where somebody wants to be so that you can see whether or not your business and your business values are aligned with that. Asking specifically about somebody's family circumstances, or do they want to have children which is believe it or not, people still ask which is quite incredible.

Or asking about anything to do with anything that shows how old that person is, any of the protected characteristics under the Equality Act would be absolutely a no-no. Another thing that is is very widely spoken about at the moment is this idea of putting too much emphasis on looking at people's backgrounds rather than looking at the skills they have now and where they want to be rather than where they've been.

OLIVER: Taking up on that, you get a lot of the big accounting practices, for example, the big four have changed their recruitment policies in some ways for graduate recruitment or what used to be graduate recruitment. Well, do you need a degree to do the job or can you find somebody of a similar age and level of experience who's just got the tenacity, the drive, the ambition and the actual ability to do the job? Are they as moldable and trainable, like for like? They're opening up to a greater pool of candidates by doing that as well, which is a positive for a lot of people that don't take the university route these days.

DONNA: Also in relation to that, Oliver, that's a really good point to make in that when you're looking at two candidates and one maybe from a top university and has come out with the first and then you look at another individual who may be a bit older, but they've gone through a route of jumping between jobs in order to get to where they are. It's easy to say, "Okay, well, let's take the person with the first-class honors degree, because clearly they're going to be better," when the reality of it is that they may only have got into university because they had the ability and the background to be able to get into that university in the first place.

The scrapper, as we call them, that has been brought up in the, perhaps, east end of London or has grown up with a fairly poor background, usually has had to work much harder to get where they need to be. That's just life. That's not stereotyping, that's just life, but with that brings other experiences. Although their education might look very different, in reality, the experience that they may bring to the job may actually be broadly similar. Also, of course, if you've had to make sure that you make those decisions and make those right connections in order to get through to the job that you're now working for, you might well find that those people are better connected, especially if you're looking for someone who's very good at networking and is able to bring more clients into your business.

RUSSELL: Yes. Unfortunately, formal education will never train you in common sense. I don't think there is a degree in common sense, although everyone should have a degree of it.

OLIVER: I'm sure we've all got that friend from university or school who was-- I've got one who was amazing at maths, he was fantastically brilliant at maths but he couldn't boil an egg.

[laughter]

RUSSELL: Nor hold a decent conversation. [laughs] They'd be very well prepared for an interview but step them out and it's difficult for them to really act in the real world.

OLIVER: We've touched a lot on the bad questions which I suppose are, in a way, easier to identify than the good questions of what you should do. I think good lines of questioning focus on the skills that you need, or that you're looking for. You've got a strong business case to bring into your company and into the role and finding the right phrases to bring them out of the applicants' background as well. You can match up and actually score how appropriate their experiences to what you're looking for. Just a bit harder to identify them and not asking if they're expecting children or anything like that.

[laughter]

RUSSELL: I think it brings a whole new subject, perhaps for another day, of how do you prepare well for an interview and knowing that you're going to make the right decision on what you hear and against what you want? Let's have a look at the so-called conversation pre-interview with Katherine Kash and Zelda. Did you perceive anything brewing under the surface there of the conversation of Zelda's winging it methodology?

OLIVER: Again, couple of things that spring to mind, aren't there? The fact that she has got no process, no clear decision-making process or paperwork to support how she's reached decisions when it does come to appointing somebody is glaringly obvious, I think. You need that kind of structure and support in a recruitment process to ensure you are making the right sound decisions for your business as well as the right decisions from the candidate perspective as well.

RUSSELL: I suppose the follow on from that is, what could happen?

DONNA: When we're advising clients on recruiting somebody is to make sure that you have a very clear person spec, a very clear job description, a very clear understanding of where they're going to be in that organisation, who they're going to report to, what kind of personalities they're going to report to. So that you can then recruit the right person to ensure that you fit in with all of that and if you don't do that, the ramifications are huge.

Like I said before, you're recruiting somebody who isn't prepared for that role, ultimately they're going to fail and then I have to come in and cut them, which is never a nice decision and it's never a nice thing to do, not for you nor the candidate. Often, that's soul destroying for the person who has come into your business and also, in terms of PR that's horrendous PR for your company. You want your candidates to come in to work, to achieve and if they decide to move on, you let them move on but they are very much an advert for your business.

"These guys are really good to work for." You wouldn't expect an employee to stay in their job for their entire life, that's not the way things happen anymore. If your business is moving the way it should do, then things change and people do move on but when they move on into those new jobs, the idea is that you're always a place they'll want to come back to if they decide to do that at some point, or they're a very good advert for other people joining your organisation. You're wanting to make sure that you attract the very best candidates. We always say to clients, "Don't hire people who are mediocre."

Somebody who is mediocre to you will be the best candidate for somebody else because every business differs so much but always, always take on the best person for the job. If you don't, that can be incredibly expensive. We have to come along and they don't perform in their job, so we then have to deal with it as a disciplinary or as a capability. Then, you have to give them targets in order to work to, and that's demoralizing and managers never get it right. It very much feels constantly like-- It's just a horrible situation and that becomes expensive, both to manage but also to get external advice in. Then when you have to let that person go, again then it's expensive to get somebody new in.

OLIVER: I think sometimes there's a tendency to rush recruitment. It is such a minefield area, it is a tricky thing to do and at the end of the day you're dealing with people and they're capable of independent thought, whether you agree with it or not. They can, at the end of the process or four weeks in, decide, "Do you know what? This isn't for me, I'm off," which is incredibly frustrating. I think sometimes people rush it because they want it to be done and dusted and move on to the next thing and to get their team working again.

Obviously, the brave and right thing to do is to take your time, set your processes up properly and make a sensible decision based on facts that you've got from the process that you've gone through from the job specification, the person specification and you've got a clear path as to where they're fitting into your company. Move forward from there rather than, one morning, a group interview sort of thing. "Great, you're my person, I'm going to take you. That's recruitment done for the year, fantastic." Inevitably, six weeks on or whatever you'll be back to square one and thinking that recruitment's just a weight around your neck dragging you down.

RUSSELL: One of your points you made there is-- I think it was you, Donna, who said about the social media or I think I've seen on Indeed, now people can rate your company as an employer. Obviously, the poorer your recruitment or the poorer you treat people ongoing, but that's a different subject definitely, the more likely you are to suffer in one of the most leading recruitment tools in the marketplace at the moment. Is it, suddenly you're seen as a two-star employer because you--

DONNA: Absolutely. That's a terrible position to be in.

OLIVER: It is and I think it's very important on social media to get it right, but it's also word of mouth. We ran a recruitment master class recently and one of the people in there gave a fantastic example of a negative impression that was created from a recruitment process. Basically, they'd sent in an application to this company, they'd had an interview, eight weeks later they were still waiting for any sort of feedback and were being told by the internal HR department, "We'll tell you when we're ready."

He walked away from that company thinking, "No way on earth I would ever apply for a job there again or recommend them to anybody." It's like bad restaurant reviews. You don't necessarily tell people about all the good ones you go to, but you make sure you tell everybody you can about the bad experiences you have. That word of mouth certainly is somewhere like corner of the world, Cornwall, counts for a huge amount and will either make recruitment even more difficult, or a bit more smoother for you in the future.

DONNA: Of course off the back of that, you were saying, Olly, about bad recruitment. If you're not putting those processes in place, and you've obviously got your list of all the things that you want from this particular employee, but all those people who get rejected, what do they do? Do you write back to them? Do you tell them? What feedback do you give? More importantly, those people who didn't get the job who are serial litigants- let's be honest, we get a lot of them- what are they going to do?

Well, the first thing they're going to do is ask for the sheets of anything that you wrote down whilst you're in that interview. That's why it's really good to have very good notes about why you chose the particular candidate that you did, and something that shows the reason that you didn't choose that particular person you did was nothing to do with anything that could be discriminatory.

By having almost a kind of list that you tick against or you score against, you take your person spec and you put one to five after each attribute you would like, then you score them against it. It's very easy then to be able to prove that, you chose that person because they were the best person for the job. Not just because they had a British sounding name, or they were male and not expecting children.

We had a classic example, a client that we didn't take on, was somebody who contacted us to ask whether or not they could-- They had two managers who had gone off on maternity leave. One was the replacement, the maternity replacement for the first one. Then the third replacement they got in, also came in and mentioned that she was pregnant. They rang me to ask me whether or not they could make a rule that no more people were allowed to get pregnant until the original three people had returned to work. Yes, it still very much goes on.

[laughter]

RUSSELL: All right, okay. It’s an interesting policy, I'd like to work out how they implement it. [laughs] Thanks for that. You mentioned discrimination there, and it is one of those-- It's a big subject. Certainly, it is very complex. One of the things I spotted with Zelda is she has this habit of giving people nicknames in the workplace so Bryock was called Brioche, obviously a baby name because he was plump in his younger days. We know she struggled with Katherine Kash because she's tried to shorten her name to Kat, Kitty Kat, Kash. Is there a problem with nicknames? I mean, it always seems very friendly between bosses and it's a bit off the recruitment thing, but I think it's an interesting question.

OLIVER: I think the problem is, often they can be given by quite strong characters who decide, "I'm going to call you Brioche," because you're a little bit curvy and soft and squidgy. They may not think how it can be interpreted from the other side. Obviously, the safe thing to do is not do it because you don't want to offend people. Don't leave yourself open for any sort of discrimination. Maybe that person's got a medical situation where they can't lose weight, if it's a thyroid issue or something like that. It's actually something that they struggle with. Donna will tell me for sure if I get this fact right but discrimination cases, there is no limit to how much can be awarded-

DONNA: Correct.

OLIVER: -if a case is found against you. It can be an incredibly expensive attempt at humor.

RUSSELL: It does feel like quite a minefield, because people-- It has a feeling, sometimes it makes a place less friendly because it's all very, very professional. Is that the case or is that just people--?

DONNA: Yes, there has to be a healthy balance. The whole using pet names, we see a lot. A huge amount, in fact, even in our own organisation, but the trouble is that-- The problem that you have is that if that pet name is off the back of something that's discriminatory. In this particular situation, he may well have a medical condition which of course obesity is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 which many people don't know. As a result of which, that could well be discrimination right from the very word go.

Alternatively, outside of the organisation, it can make you look really quite unprofessional because you can often forget that that person is somebody who's being viewed from outside of the organisation, is providing a professional service. By almost giving them baby names or daft names can take away some of that view of being a professional, which is really important.

Also, within the organisation, if you're looking at managers, and you've got some managers calling other managers pet names, Kitty and various bits and pieces, it's not a great place to start because immediately, it takes away some of the gravitas that sometimes they may well need. To some extent, it makes the working environment almost too pally so that then when you need to do something about someone's behavior, they take it very personally rather than seeing that, "We need to do this because you're not quite performing" or "you've taken it a step too far."

OLIVER: I wonder as well, sometimes, if a character in a company decides that they want to apply nicknames or anything that yes, it puts on a false front. It's like, "We're ultra cool, we're ultra smooth-"

RUSSELL: We're friendly.

OLIVER: "-we're friendly, everyone likes everybody. We're all best mates," when in actual fact, you're not. Maybe that should be recognized and like Donna says, you need more of a balance between the professional side and getting on with your work colleagues is really, really important. It's almost like a nod towards half-hearted attempt to doing something. If you've got a genuinely friendly culture, you'll have a genuinely friendly culture and it will be obvious to everybody. If you've got somebody who feels they have to instill a culture into an organisation, then it will be fairly obvious that that's what they're doing and calling somebody Brioche, may be an example of that.

RUSSELL: Yes, fair enough. I hanker for the days when I started where I called my boss, Mr. Chapman, for the first two years until he gave me permission to call him by his first name. Part of me thinks, we miss that a little bit is the respect element in both ways and we try to be overly friendly, maybe. Well, I'd just like to ask for some specific top tips from you both and perhaps you could take it in turns, Oliver, focusing on getting the best-- The sound recruitment process in place. What will be your top tips as a recruitment specialist?

OLIVER: The one thing I always try to instill on people who approach us to try and help them is time is your friend, you've got to make time your friend rather. The more time you have, you can structure it properly to capture a wide variety of candidates, you've got time to go through your processes sensibly and give due consideration at each stage. Recruitment done in a hurry always worries me a little bit.

Sometimes, I've experienced people who are making big career and life decisions, sometimes based on a 30-minute, 45-minute chat with somebody they don't know, effectively.

That, as I say, is worrying when that can be the case because you can end up spending 40 however many hours a week with these people, you're going to be entrusting them with your company, image, brands to actually do the job that you are qualified to do.

Never mind from the person point of view, as well, you're presumably giving up a secure role, a secure income you may have but you're going to have outgoings and commitments that you need to ensure you continue with. You don't want to create a situation where you're unhappy and desperate to do something about it. That would be my top, top tip. The second one would be preparation and consistency, so that's two in one. There you go.

[laughter]

RUSSELL: Prepare to be consistent.

OLIVER: Prepare to be consistent. Like we were saying about interview questioning and Zelda was winging it, "We'll just take the moment and see where the conversation goes with the candidate," is I think, opening yourself up to all sorts of issues potentially. If you've got that plan and consistent approach, then everybody's treated the same regardless of levels of experience or qualifications or background or whatever it may be.

RUSSELL: We saw at the end there that Elle Capitan came in and was given a job with no-- She didn't even utter a word and she's been given a job. I can see that consistency is key. How is she going to maintain that consistency of recruitment with the next candidate through the door? What about from your side, Donna?

DONNA: From the legal side, there are many issues here and many tips. The first one being, like you've said early, is make sure that you prepare. "F ail to prepare, prepare to fail". It is as much here as it is anywhere. Make sure that you understand what it is that you're recruiting for, make sure that you put a proper person spec together, a proper job description together. Make sure that when you go to market you choose the right methods in which to search for somebody.

Pay someone to do it, it will always pay dividends. For a start because you're management time, that's not what you're good at. That's often not what you're trying to do. Whereas those people you employ to do it for you will do a much better job and you will get a much better representation of candidates that are available. That was a cheeky plug there for you there, Ollie.

OLIVER: Thank you very much. Cheque's in the post

DONNA: From a legal point of view, it is always better to do that. Make sure that you have good training in place within your organisation, especially things like equality training to make sure that those people if you are going to recruit on your own that you understand, from a legal perspective, what you're expected to do. What discrimination is and how very simple it is to take unconscious bias, they call it, where you hire somebody who very much fits your own profile, rather than the profile of the business.

There's all of those things. Making sure you get your organisational structure right, make sure you get your reporting structure right before you go to market. Off the back of that, make sure that when you've got somebody in, that you properly induct them, that they understand what it is that they're doing, that you train them. Get some processes in place, so that if you're in the midst of training them, they have something to go back to, to refer to, so that it's much easier for them to pick up the role.

You know they're going to be very new to this, and support them. Nobody is going to pick up every element of the job really quickly. Make sure that once you've got the right candidate in, that you look after them because that's often the reason why people leave, and then they'll bad mouth you. At the end of the day, you want to be the employer of choice. That's often the difference between a good employer and a bad employer.

OLIVER: I think, sometimes in the recruitment process, people forget it doesn't necessarily stop on the day that somebody starts a new job. You hit really nail on the head there that the settling in period is so crucial. So many people say to us, "We want somebody that can hit the ground running". That phrase is just so worn and it almost gives the impression, it's like, "Right, you want somebody to come in and you just don't want to manage them. You just want them to know exactly how you do things, who does what in your office what this system or processes are there." In reality, that's not necessarily the case at all. It's--

RUSSELL: It's usually wildly unrealistic.

OLIVER: Absolutely. We've all started new jobs. We all know what it's like walking in there on your first day, not really knowing where you're going or what you're going to expect or anything. Anything an employer can do to smooth that transition process- which can last 6, 9, 12 months down the line, can't it?- will help you see those returns on the investment that you've put into the recruitment.

DONNA: Also from a legal point of view, making sure that you get all your documentation in place, especially things like handbooks where if you want someone to pick up the phone in a particular way, tell them, show them what your company culture is, explain to them where you want to be in five years time. You can't possibly have someone who is ready on day one to help you meet your goal in five years' time if they don't know what it is. From a legal point of view, understand that you do have legal responsibilities to make sure that they're trained and that you've got policies and procedures and contracts in place from day one. Make sure you do it.

RUSSELL: Okay. It does beg the question, on the back of that, as to whether there's a significant difference between a small business' responsibility or approach to recruitment and a large business'. Is there any fundamental difference between the two?

DONNA: From a legal point of view, no.

RUSSELL: No?

DONNA: The moment you take on a single employee or as most small employers do, they ask me, "Oh well, that's okay. I'm not going to take them on as an employee. They're going to be self-employed, working 40 hours a week."

[laughter]

DONNA: Not so much. The rules apply whether you're a big organisation or a small organisation, you're expected to have the same responsibilities under the law. As an employer, you need to make sure that you know what it is that you're signing up for.

OLIVER: Yes. There's the full backers, "We're small and we can be more flexible, we can take a different approach." As Zelda's suggesting, she can be innovative or modern practices, not really the same rules apply.

DONNA: Well, and also small businesses become big businesses if they do this properly in the first place. Otherwise, small businesses remain small businesses, and they lose staff as quickly as they recruit them, which is great for Ollie but not-- Great for me because it keeps me in a job too. In fact, the more employers who can make the odd mistake, the better on my part really. Keeps me in funds.

OLIVER: I think one big difference between the recruitment in those different scale companies is obviously in a larger company you've got professionals qualified in that certain area. If you are hiring an accountant, you're likely to have some very good technical knowledge in-house who can lead or at least, help create the questions that's going to give you an idea of where their technical capabilities are. Whereas in a smaller organisation, it may be-- If you're growing, you're doing really well, it may be the first genuine accountant you're bringing on board.

Yes, you may be a good business person in the general sense but do you know the IR35 tax rules, for example, and everything else around that? You're going to have to find someone to come in and help you upfront. Whether that's in a general sense, with somebody like Donna helping you write those questions and set your handbooks up and everything like that. Whether it's a recruitment consultancy such as Watson Evans then yes, we can do that. Even when it comes down to conduct an interview, will your firm of accountants, will the accountant that you communicate with regularly come and sit on an interview and lend some expertise to that situation?

RUSSELL: Which is difficult one to balance sometimes in it because of course, they could very well be losing a revenue stream-

OLIVER: A little bit of work, yes.

RUSSELL: -because you're going to bring your bookkeeping in-house or whatever. Brilliant. This has truly scratched the surface of what is a huge subject, and people generally offer some of the biggest challenges in business. What other hot topics should we be talking about in the future, do you think?

OLIVER: I think you've got to go down some sort of disciplinary process.

[laughter]

DONNA: I was going to make the same comment.

OLIVER: Yes, disciplinary.

DONNA: I'm pretty sure that Zelda need to be disciplined at some point.

[laughter]

OLIVER: As it's her company, who disciplines her?

DONNA: Well, exactly but no, it's a difficult one. Isn't it?

RUSSELL: The danger is that she'll discipline somebody or I suppose, not discipline somebody that should be. That's going to be a tricky one. I'll have a think about that.

OLIVER: A nice legal case coming in from Brioche when he gets the coffee wrong one too many times and gets the boot. His philosophy and law skills will leave him to-

DONNA: Well, I suspect the trouble is that Zelda will ask someone in the cafe, "He's got less than two years service. What should we do about that?" "Oh, well he's got no legal rights if he's got less than two years service." Then you find, out of course, discrimination is exempt from that little rule. We do like The Pub Lawyers. They're always a good one.

RUSSELL: Everyone's got an opinion. Brilliant. Well, this has been quite an intriguing conversation. I wish we could carry on but 40 minutes. [laughs]

OLIVER: You've got to edit that down to what?

[laughter]

RUSSELL: We'll work it out. Actually, there's some good stuff in there so I don't know how far we'll go, but we'll see how we go. That leads me to wind up the episode for today. It would be good to hear from anybody if they agree with you on your tips and on your points. I'm sure they're unlikely to disagree. Thank you, Donna. Thank you, Oliver, for spending some time in my lounge today. Thank everyone for listening.

We'd love to hear your thoughts on what's going on with Sydeline, what subjects you'd find useful in the future. We appreciate your shares and likes and comments and ratings. All feedback is good feedback. That's good HR term that, isn't it? Next time that new product that Sideline has created to started your output may be a problem for Zelda and Jakob in Gim me, Gim me, Gim me.

with special thanks to...

Donna Negus is the Managing Director of Sekoya Specialist Employment Services. A highly experienced employment solicitor who takes the stress out of recruiting and managing a workforce. Not only that, Donna is a delight to be around and pleasure to work with.

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Oliver Watson is a Recruitment Consultant and Director of Watson Evans Associates. Oliver and his team de-risks recruitment and thrives on his clients trust as he works to make employing people a joy and not a burden. Simply, he a decent human being to have on your team.

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View Details

Timings * 00:18 - Scene 6.1 - Building a Better Building * 07:19 - Discussion with Dave Moore * 08:57 - The role of an architect * 09:30 - The role of a project manager * 09:57 - The expectations of the client * 10:40 - The role of a builder * 11:02 - Change Control * 12:35 - Others that should be involved * 14:20 - Health and Safety * 16:33 - Learning from Mistakes * 17:40 - Top tips for creating useful, safe and effective premises * 18:50 - What's next?

Useful Information Setting up and running Business Premises (@07:19) * HM Gov Business Premises Advice - Page (gov.uk) * Fire Safety in the Workplace - Page (gov.uk)

Architects and Project Managers (@08:57) * How do I use an Architect? - Document (RIBA) * (Not secure) About Working with an Architect - Page (ACA) * What does a Project Manager do? - page (APM) * A day in the life of a project manager - Article (APM) * What is Change Control - Page (APM)

Health and Safety (@14:20) * Managing for Health and Safety - Page (HSE) * H&S The basics for your business - Page (HSE) * Small and Medium businesses case studies - Index (HSE)

Top tips for creating useful, safe and effective premises (@17:40) * Tip #1 - Listen to advice * Tip #2 - Listen to the client * Tip #3 - Work together to find the solution

Episode script Building a better building Building a better building

CONTINUITY: Finally, Jakob and Zelda meet in their new premises where renovation and beautification works are well underway.

(Builders and fitters working in the background)

ZELDA: Morning Buttercup!

JAKOB: What? (Bit deflated it wasn’t a term of endearment) Oh, right… The hi-vis gear… Haha! . How the progress? It’s looking good

ZELDA: I know, right! I think the builders hate me, but we’re getting there.

JAKOB: I can’t imagine anyone hating you Zelda. And don’t you look dapper in your hi-vis vest and hard hat… So, where are the offices located?

ZELDA: Through here

JAKOB: Wow! Thats a big open, empty, echoey office. Bit chilly too, you keeping the heating off to save money?

ZELDA: It’s the same temperature as the warehouse?!

JAKOB: Yes, but thats expected. Warehouse workers tend to be dressed for the job. Office workers… Well… Not so much. You going to work in your coat?

ZELDA: I guess not. The builders said something about heating… Hold on (Shouting through to the foreman). Yo, Wilson, What did you say about the heating yesterday

WILSON: (Shouting back) What I said was, if you force us to put that wall there it will disable the heating

ZELDA: Yeah, that was it. Hold on (shouting back) Do you mean permanently or just whilst you put it up.

WILSON: (shouting in reply) Permanently, you know, when I said, “You won’t have any heating if you put that there”

ZELDA: Oh!

JAKOB: (to Zelda) That’s not good (shouting to Wilson) What will it take to reinstate the heating?

WILSON: Dunno, we had to rip the flue out – I know a guy, but it won’t be cheap

JAKOB: I bet – get me a price and we’ll have to get it done

WILSON: Righty ho buddy (almost audibly rolling his eyes)

JAKOB: We need to think about the practicalities of running a building and not just getting the aesthetics right.

ZELDA: Aesthetics?

JAKOB: You know, look and feel, making it look beautiful, that kind of stuff

ZELDA: But dads office always looked like it was in a factory, I want my office team to be closeted in a lovely working environment. I believe that will make them more productive

JAKOB: Not if they’re frozen to death they won’t.

ZELDA: (thinking) True, definitely less productive when dead…

JAKOB: I am surprised Tarquin let you do it, I’ll have to have a chat with him.

ZELDA: Tarquin! That jackass. He stomped on just about every great idea I had

JAKOB: Stomped? That sounds past tense

ZELDA: I told him to naff off – called himself an architect, the only thing he architected was my misery

JAKOB: But he’s the best commercial architect in the area. (worried) Please tell me you didn’t insult him?

ZELDA: Of course not. I told him honestly that he was useless to me and didn’t know what he was talking about and that I would take control of the project

JAKOB: So you canned his project manager at the same time

ZELDA: Sure! They were ganging up on me. (Mocking) “You can’t put that wall there”, “If you block that door up it’s a fire risk”, “Electrical sockets can’t…”

JAKOB: (interrupting) What door have you blocked up?

ZELDA: Over there (pointing)

JAKOB: Hold on, that the entrance for the office workers… and their fire exit!

ZELDA: They can go in and out of the warehouse

JAKOB: But what if the fire is in the warehouse

ZELDA: Oh… Out the Windows?

JAKOB: Look, I appreciate you want the office to be attractive and pleasing to work in, but it has to be functional and safe. There is balance to be struck. I admit, sometimes you have to ‘manage’ architects, but they, especially Tarquin, know what is appropriate, safe and legal. Let me smooth it out with him and get the place up to code.

ZELDA: Oh ok, I thought he was being picky, self opinionated and overly-cautious. But you’re paying for it, so whatever you think is best

JAKOB: (under breath) Yes, yes I am paying for it!

ZELDA: What?

JAKOB: So, interviews starting next week I hear, everything planned?

ZELDA: Yep, I’ve got lots of interest from the local job centre and I posted jobs on jobs sites. Also got some friends popping in to the Dog and Bone for a chat on Friday, so may get some luck there.

JAKOB: Ok, but be careful with hiring friends and family

ZELDA: Yeah, Yeah, whatever – dad did well with me…

JAKOB: Who’s doing the interviews with you?

ZELDA: I haven’t got anybody lined up, do I need to?

JAKOB: I’ll get Katherine to join you, think you could do with some help. It’s quite tough to do back to back interviews.

ZELDA: Ok, will be nice to see Kat… Katherine again.

JAKOB: And, of course, when they start have you got the desks and IT all sorted out

ZELDA: I’m going to hire a facilities manager and IT techies so they can deal with that.

JAKOB: So you’re going to wait for them to work their notice at their current job, start with you and then you’ll start installing desks, seating and the technology

ZELDA: Well now you say it like that, it sounds a bit sluggish

JAKOB: T..T..Tarquin has an office design specialist in his team, let’s get them in. I also know a good IT company who should be able sort out the network, computers, printers, and … (Looking around) Cable-ing…(still looking) Where’s the dado trunking that was in here?… I’m sure it was marked on the plans

ZELDA: (bit arty) It broke up the walls and made the place look too industrial

JAKOB: (stunned silence) I…I…I… Know… A good IT company… Thankfully. Tell you what, let’s talk about what you want the office to look like and I’ll take control of this so you can focus on hiring the people… Deal?

ZELDA: Great! I’m fairly happy with the start I’ve made here it will be great to move onto the next challenge

JAKOB: Yes, yes, that would be good.

Setting Up Premises Discussion Transcript RUSSELL: Where do you start with all that? Well, firstly I’d like to introduce Dave Moore from the Cornwall Development Company who’s joined me today in the Enterprise Space for Advanced Manufacturing in Cornwall. Welcome Dave...

DAVE: Hi

RUSSELL: Dave, you have many years in running premises like the one’s Zelda is trying to setup. You are currently the Center Manager for this lovely, brand new, building on the outskirts of St Austell. Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself...

DAVE: Well, you know. 20-30 years experience in engineering, maintenance, project delivery and building management. Guess that sums it up really.

RUSSELL: Cool! So, on that basis, we’re going to have a look back on what you’ve just heard about Sydeline’s new premises. What are your initial thoughts on what is going on there?

DAVE: Where do you start! Poor communication. Lack of understanding. No clear control. Guess that’s a start, I suppose.

RUSSELL: It does seem to be that the client’s taking a heavy role in this. Is that unusual?

DAVE: Nope!

RUSSELL: You don’t usually get someone like the client, like Zelda, standing on the side telling the architect what to do

DAVE: Very often you do

RUSSELL: You’re not couching your answers with caution in there are you?

DAVE: Definitely not

RUSSELL: I think it would be good to cover some more of the points in detail: Let’s talk about the role of an architect in any building or renovation project like this one. Are they critical, could be useful. Are they there to be truly useful or are they just an optional expense?

DAVE: Simple projects, possibly not. They do understand building dynamics and the requirements and principles of design. Though sometimes they do forget that they’re there to deliver what the client wants rather than award winning buildings that might bring them more work in the future.

RUSSELL: Yeah, I can see that. What about a project manager? Because she managed to can both the architect and the project manager. Project managers, again, optional?

DAVE: He should help to manage the delivery of the project, ensuring it meets the clients needs. Co-ordinating and managing the actual deliver. Hence “project manager”. But sometimes they can take one side or the other, very often. A good project manager will normally seek a good workable compromise in most circumstances.

RUSSELL: What should Zelda, as the client, be expecting from these experts, in the form of architect and project management?

DAVE: She should be expecting advice from these experts in order to deliver her dream. However, communications, listening and understanding in both directions is critical.

RUSSELL: Do you think she’s trying to get too involved in the project?

DAVE: Yes and no. Cause she know’s what she wants, but she does need to listen to the advice she’s given.

RUSSELL: So there’s a good chance that Tarquin, our famous architect, probably stuck his heals in, perhaps not dealt with the client as he should

DAVE: I would think so.

RUSSELL: OK, the builders, maybe a bit stereotypical there, but was their approach familiar or are you surprised they decommissioned the heating?

DAVE: No surprised at all, very familiar. They’ll do what you ask them to do. Sometimes to a point.

RUSSELL: So, at that point ripping the flue out! Now Zelda has been deviating somewhat from the plans, therefore. Quite evidently, she’s taken walls down and put them up where she shouldn’t do. The architect had put these plans together - what would be a good process for managing these changes normally? Shouting them through the corridor to the building manager?

DAVE: Project meetings, discussions, agreements, change control. Any one of a number of things along those lines. But make sure things are tracked so people know what they are doing and why they are doing them. Rather than just listening to somebody and doing something without thinking about the consequences.

RUSSELL: Just drilling into that slightly, change control is one of those phrases at which people wince. It’s like project management, people don’t like it. For a small business owner or a start-up who think that a project manager is just an unnecessary expense, and an architect definitely think so. And then you hear, change control - what does it protect you from?

DAVE: It protects you from you builder ripping your flue out without explaining to you why you can have any heating after that? It’s really to create an understanding, make sure everyone’s aware of the decision that’s being made and why.

RUSSELL: And also the documentation pathways means that, when you do actually, finally get to an operational building, you can go back

DAVE: It also means if you do want to look back you can see why a change was made and why you’ve ended up where you’ve ended up

RUSSELL: And hopefully that can help with the route to any dispute resolution

DAVE: True

RUSSELL: Now, it has to be said, that sometimes, the architects can not think of everything. Who else is it good to get involved when you’re designing premises

DAVE: I say definitely the M & E guys, or the Mechanical and Electrical teams. After all, without power and water, how do you make a cup of tea! Other’s though might be IT or perhaps some other specialists like heating and ventilation specialist. Or maybe office planners, like Jakob suggested.

RUSSELL: Focusing on the M&E, it’s obviously a phrase which is very familiar to us but to people who are running a premise for the first time, M&E includes power and water but can also include some quite bulky pieces of equipment

DAVE: So, it could include your fire alarms or your intruder alarms so you can lock the building up when you’re going home and you know you now going to get anything stolen. Even down to your boilers, else you can’t get your heat and you certainly can’t boil your kettle without your services, or even without your IT.

RUSSELL: It’s possible that people under-estimate the amount of space that some of this stuff needs to take

DAVE: So often I’ve seen buildings where they’ll put a plant room in and then, when they start building it, they discover they can’t get everything in the plant room and they have to find somewhere to put the water tank. I can think of an example of just seen the last couple of weeks, where they’ve ended up having to put the water tank somewhere which has created a load more work, because they’ve had to fence an area off and reduce the working area that was available to the client

RUSSELL: And that can also impact if you do want to extend, change, go up with new floors or different things. Suddenly, you can’t because you got this large piece of engineering equipment in the way. Ok! So moving on a bit, to what is a huge subject, and I’m not looking for chapter and verse on this by any stretch of the imagination. Health and Safety - where do we start? Staff safety over staff comfort?

DAVE: It’s a difficult one. I think it’s good old common sense. Unfortunately, no one seems to teach common sense anymore. Ultimately, if it don’t seem safe it probably isn’t. Actually, remember, if you’ve been doing it the same way a thousand times and got away with it, it just means you’re closer to get it wrong and something happening that shouldn’t. Ultimately, there are rules and guidelines for a reason. I think common sense helps but for some reason we’ve had to write them down because people don’t apply common sense. So that’s why the rules and guidelines are there.

RUSSELL: And they can sometime appear to be a bit over-bearing or complex. Especially when you’re starting up new premises, there can be an absolute wall of Health and Safety, fire risk and such like and you have to wade through all of that

DAVE: Correct

RUSSELL: So it goes back to some of things we’ve said in previous episodes. Getting advice on these subjects early and even if that’s talking to other people that are running similar premises

DAVE: I think it’s the same all round really. The earlier those conversations take place the better. And sometimes we go away and we let somebody design something. They don’t involved the M&E and so you end up with a plant room that’s not big enough. You don’t involve the client and the client comes along and says well that’s why I want to move that wall because you didn’t give me a big enough office.

RUSSELL: And then you get into expensive change

DAVE: Correct

RUSSELL: So, you’d have to say, with Health and Safety that blocking fire doors is an absolute no-no then?

DAVE: Yeah! But you might have been able to move it

RUSSELL: Yes, as you say, it’s about using some common sense. She didn’t use her common sense, but was just looking at the attractiveness of the room. Moving on and passing over recruitment because that’s a subject for another day. Moving on to the fact that Zelda had decided to remove the dado trunking and cabling around the room. I once saw a company strip out all physical dado rail data cabling because it ruined the look of the room, just because they’d heard that wi-fi could replace it all. That was 10 year or so ago, and of course wifi just couldn’t that - bit different now. Have you seen any hideous mistakes you can share without embarrassing anyone?

DAVE: I remember once, a company specifying a new boiler for a site based on the incoming gas usage to the site. Unfortunately they’d forgotten that there were actually 4 kitchens on that gas supply. So they ended up with a very big, over-sized boiler that very rarely ran, and when it did run, it was at such a low level that it was incredibly inefficient. Classic example

RUSSELL:: So, expensive on all sides there

DAVE: And wasteful too

RUSSELL: There is an array of these things and by suffering you can help others to avoid them. Finally, it would be good if you could share your top tips for creating safe, useful and effective premises.

DAVE: I think, listen to the advice, listen to the client and work together to find the solution

RUSSELL: Well that’s concise and thank you very much for those for those. And it has to be said that building premises leads to commissioning premises and managing premises all with their own challenges. Would you agree?

DAVE: Sure does, and that’s not to mention snagging and defects when you’re trying to move in

RUSSELL: And I think that’s common. We’re sitting in a brand new building and we’ve both experienced small snags. And, not seeking to embarrass anybody, it is just what happens, you can’t get away from that.

DAVE: No

RUSSELL: Well that’s great, thanks very much for spending the time with us there. Thanks Dave and thanks for Cornwall Development Company giving you the chance to do this

DAVE: My pleasure

RUSSELL: So at that point I’d encourage all of you listening to ask questions in the comments on our show page where we’ll put useful links and a full transcript of our conversation. You could also leave your feedback and ideas for subjects to cover in the future and rate, like and share if you would be so kind.

As for next time, well you heard Jakob say that recruitment is about to kick off in Sydeline - that’s got to be easy, hasn’t it. We’ll have 1, or possibly even 2, recruitment and HR experts to throw some light on the matters raised in the next Episode, which is called “One Of Us”.

Say goodbye Dave

DAVE: Goodbye Dave!

with special thanks to...

David Moore is Building Manager for the Enterprise Space for Advanced Manufacturing (eSAM) in Carluddon Technology Park just outside St Austell in Cornwall. Working for the Cornwall Development Company, Dave has a wealth of experience in project and facilities management.

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Timings * 00:15 - Scene 5.1 None of your business * 04:55 - Discussion between Mike and Russell * 09:20 - Duty of Confidentiality * 10:45 - Obligations in a business * 12:00 - Openness with competitors * 13:05 - Family in business and confidentiality * 15:30 - Intellectual Property (IP) * 17:12 - Digital Confidentiality * 20:03 - Tip #1 - Understand your obligations * 20:51 - Tip #2 - Breaking a confidence process * 21:23 - Tip #3 - Put security measures in place * 21:57 - Tip #4 - Train your people on the privacy rules * 22:03 - Tip #5 - Plan for a Breach * 23:02 - What's next?

Useful Information Confidentiality (@06:40) * Confidentiality in the workplace: What you need to know - Article (DirectLineForBusiness) * How employers can protect confidential information - Article (PersonnelToday) * The importance of confidentiality in the workplace - Article (Hiscox)

Defining Professional Confidentiality in practice (@09:20) * Ethical Principles and Code of Professional Conduct - Document (UKCP) * Ethical Framework for the Counselling Professions - Article (BACP) * Accounting Professional standards - Document (AAT) * Code of Professional Conduct or HR/Personnel - Document (CIPD) * Policing Code of Ethics - Document (College of Policing) * The Police (Conduct) Regulations 2008 - Schedule (gov.uk)

Top tips for ...(@20:03) * Know what you need to keep confidential * Establish policies, processes and procedures to define what you do * Protect the information * Train the team in the requirements and the rules you've established * Define what to do WHEN a breach occurs

Basic Technological Security ...(@21:23) * Cyber Essentials - Site (ncsc.gov.uk)

Episode script None of Your Business None of Your Business

CONTINUITY: Jakob has been unexpectedly invited to Nero’s for a midweek evening meal. Nero waits at the door as Jakob walks from his car to the house.

NERO: (incredulous bellow) 2 and a half million quid! Two and a half MILL-E-ON What the hell man?

JAKOB: “Man”? Never heard you use that before – what are you yelling about?

NERO: You are in to Sydeline to the value of 2 and a half million pounds already. With no revenue on the books!

JAKOB: How the hell do you know that?

NERO: Zelda told me at lunch. It was all I could do to stop myself falling off my chair.

JAKOB: What the…

NERO: It would have been cheaper for you just hand me the DB5 and go build yourself a new one from scratch

JAKOB: (irritated) Can we go inside please?

NERO: Had better, you probably need a drink and a lie down

JAKOB: humph

NERO: Take a seat Jake

JAKOB: Its… Oh stuff it. What in gods name did Zelda tell you?

NERO: She gave me a full update on the works at the unit, the product line, the whole nine yards. I was impressed until she showed me the balance sheet. Honest to goodness I nearly swallowed my gold tooth

JAKOB: Firstly, I’m not happy about this. I will have to talk to Zelda about this breach of confidentiality. Secondly, it’s none of your business how I go about making your daughter a successful business owner.

NERO: It is when I’m your friend too

JAKOB: Well, yes, I guess. However, things are a little different now – we’re in competition both in the product marketplace and..

NERO: (interrupting) I gave up on that product line you know

JAKOB: I know, I know, but Zelda is confident she can iron out what you couldn’t

NERO: And my 12 person product development team

JAKOB: Yes, yes and them

NERO: And my marketing team, sales team and manufacturing people

JAKOB: Yes, yes, yes… All them too

NERO: Honestly I wish she’d piped up at the time (tongue in cheek)

JAKOB: I bet… Anyway, we are in competition

NERO: ish

JAKOB: ALRIGHT! We are looking to compete with you …ish AND we have a wager

NERO: And you fancy my daughter

JAKOB: Yes, no. That’s not the point

NERO: Asked her out yet?

MUM: Oh hello Jake, so lovely to see you. Is Zelda with you?

JAKOB: Hi Mrs Zero, lovely to see you too. Were you expecting Zelda too?

MUM: Oh call me by my christian name Jake (embarrassed)- she was coming too Nero, wasn’t she? Carlos and I are banging out a wonderful dish in the kitchen – it’ll be ready soon

NERO: Yep (wrying smiling at Jakob) She should be here any…

(Doorbell)

NERO: Oooo, speak of the devil….

MUM: Zelda! So nice to see you midweek

ZELDA: Thanks mum

MUM: Jakes here

ZELDA: Is he? Wh… where?

MUM: In the lounge – I’m just off back to the kitchen to finish off with Carlos

ZELDA: Hi dad, Hi J

NERO/JAKOB: Hi darling/Zelda

ZELDA: Didn’t know you would be here tonight, this is nice

JAKOB: No, we were both kept in the dark about that (glaring at Nero)

NERO: I was just talking to Jakob about your progress. You are certainly at it full steam ahead

ZELDA: Oh yes, we’re making great headway. I’m hoping to have the offices ready next week and start hiring whilst the factory roof is fixed. The machines start to arrive at the end of the month

NERO: Impressive. I meant to ask over lunch before I had that funny turn, how have you fixed that product line you’ve nicked from me?

JAKOB: Nicked? And say nothing Zelda, remember he’s the competition

ZELDA: Really? He’s my dad

JAKOB: And a potential competitor – you’ll need to watch what you share with this rascal in the future

NERO: (Grinning broadly) Who? Little ole me?

ZELDA: I never thought of that! Dad you quizzed me for 2 hours today over lunch

NERO: I’m interested darling… Anyway, have you two been out to celebrate your union yet?

JAKOB: Errr…

ZELDA: (excited) Ooooo, hadn’t thought about celebrating our partnership

NERO: You must… A nice meal, just the two of you

JAKOB: Stop it!

NERO: What?

MUM: DINNER!

Privacy Rules Discussion Transcript MIKE: Oh dear, oh dear. What a wind up merchant Nero is proving to be! Anyway, regardless of his motives he has given us the topic for the week, and that is confidentiality. And to discuss this with me this time is not quite who we hoped, so, unfortunately Russell’s back....

RUSSELL: You must be delighted. It’s a shame our (former) friend and colleague was unable to join us... How do you want to do this then?

MIKE: Well perhaps we should start with explaining what our credentials for discussing confidentiality are firstly

RUSSELL: Ok! Well, if I kick off. I have been responsible for Information security in various local government bodies since 1997, when I was first appointed to a delightful role. At one point I was a Single Point of Contact for the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, when it was first introduced and operated in some businesses with some very sensitive data under its control... What about you?

MIKE: I’ve done a number of different bits. I’ve worked for some very sensitive central government departments with some very secretive and sensitive data. I’ve worked in the nuclear industry and there’s lots of sensitive things there. I’ve worked within pharmaceuticals and healthcare. So, yeah, some quite stringent security regimes I’ve worked within. Got the t-shirt on a lot of these things.

But I guess, in the things that you’ve done, you must have seen some bad examples of maintaining confidentially, quite often I would think.

RUSSELL: Yes, especially in the early days of early data protection it was very prevalent, it was very easy spot people which were fracturing the law. Everything from people forwarding email. We had one with a sensitive chain of conversations though email and then some attached that chain to a meeting invite. Including the person who was potentially go though a disciplinary with all the conversations that had gone though before. There’s been situations where people have deliberately shared private information with people they really knew they shouldn’t. And there’s always the accidental event; some have been quite severe, which I don’t want to go into because it could embarrass people. Information confidentiality is a very broad subject. It’s worth thinking about what’s going on in Sydeline?

MIKE: I think there’s numbers of areas of confidentiality and one of our areas in Gydeline is around personal data protection. But I think a lot of the issues in Sydeline are really around company confidential information, competitive information, that sort of thing. Because it’s not a great scenario where there’s two companies that in competition with one another that are sharing information. I’ve worked in a lot of competitive situations where either side of that competition would dearly want to know what the competitor is thinking, saying and it going to bid. I guess you put yourself at a disadvantage and your competition at an advantage if you share information too readily. Family or not, that ready sharing of information, warts and all, is not the best way forwards in business. Open and honest is great, but at the right time

RUSSELL: There’s also an aspect in certain industries, and I think you’ve worked in a few of them where there is a duty of confidentiality, where there’s a professional requirement - how can you explain what that entails?

MIKE: Those industries, and the nuclear industry is certainly an example of one, that there should be good induction and training in place to inform those individuals of what their obligations and what they should do. Things like Healthcare is an example where there are some quite onerous obligations on how you should and shouldn’t deal with things like sensitive patient data. So, this entails an awareness, but also an attitude around information and treating that information as something of value, an asset to the organisation. Much as you would just go a give your car keys or your laptop to somebody. Why would you give information willy-nilly. It’s an attitude as well as some controls that you might need to put in place as well.

RUSSELL: Yes, but as it happens, Zelda didn’t have a duty of confidentiality enforced on her be a professional body. She had no requirements there, but she does having an obligation to Jakob as a partner in the business.

MIKE: So what do you think they should have done to stop that being a problem in that case?

RUSSELL: Well, if nothing else, it’s something they should have talked about. We discussed this in previous episodes, having an agreement on how your partnership is going to work. Ok, they’re directors in a limited company but it’s still a partnership, they’re still joined together to give a common aim. There should be some form of ground rules. Something that says, this is what we share between ourselves, this is what we’ll share publicly and this we’ll keep company private. That could also extend out to shareholders where you would expect a certain amount of confidentiality in professional business meetings. You mentioned competition previously. We’ve both worked in the tricky world of telecommunications where there was this really strange juggling game of openness and confidentiality with competitors - Do you perceive that as a common dilemma, in your experience?

MIKE: I think it can be. There are some businesses that see everybody as a competitor. More and more organisations try to work in a partnership model where they either see business opportunities to work together with whoever those other companies are - a lot of the time that will be to deliver joint services to a customer but in some occasions they are in competition. It’s a dilemma but things like Non Disclosure Agreements and the way that company is organised or divided can help to minimise some of those issues. But there’s definitely the family aspect, in Sydeline, and the friends aspect. One does wonder if Jakob treats all of his investments in this way and whether he goes in without agreements. One also wonders if the competitors was someone other than your dad, then it might be a little less tricky to be hard-nosed about it.

RUSSELL: It has to be said that family business, or having family that’s in business together does create an additional complication. It’s a different dilemma- you and I are not family we go home to our respective locations and we have a separate personal life to a business life. Especially if you live in the same house you end up talking business. You’ll end up talking business in front of the children, or potentially bringing up fairly sensitive issues with friends or guests possibly because it’s on your mind or the subject of the moment. That becomes even worse if you start roping in difficult staffing problems. If you’re not a large company, it can be very easy for your friends and family, that are not in the business, to quickly identify who you’re talking about even if you’re a little vague on it. Because a job title or a description of somebody might easily identify them - all of sudden you confidentially is blown your business professionalism is blown.

MIKE: There’s any number of avenues that might get opened up as part of those seemingly innocuous conversations. If you’re talking about money or finance you might expose some weakness or even some opportunity that you’re intending to go for that your competitor might ben able to exploit. Ideas that you’ve had. Things that you’ve created or might want to create that could be potentially stolen. Any technical flaws you might have, there are any number of things that could be used against you. So it’s a tricky area.

RUSSELL: You mention that, and going back to the phrase that Nero used, that they’d nicked the product line. That’s an Intellectual Property issue, or IP as it’ can be lovingly referred to on occasions. How would you describe Intellectual Property to anyone who has never thought they have any in their business?

MIKE: It’s an interesting one as every business has some form of IP. The easiest way to think about is that it’s something you created but it doesn’t have to be a physical thing it doesn’t have to be a tangible object. There are many different examples of what this creation you have made is. It could be designs, ideas, blueprints, symbols, names, logos, any number of intangible thing that you’ve created could be a piece of IP. It could the way you do something, a process or even an approach to something. Anyone listening out there, really have a good think about areas of IP that you’ve got and then those areas of IP where you might need to think about being cautious with and protecting.

RUSSELL: So that use of the word nicked. Could hide an underlying problem. That product could be part of a registered design or a patent or something. He doesn’t appear to be doing anything about it, though, having said that.

MIKE: Hmmm, Not at the moment. We’ll have to see if anything happens on that front in the future. I guess we talk about confidentiality without talking about how technology affects this. We are very much as digital business. It’s getting bigger and bigger in every business. There aren’t many that rely solely on paper or lack of technology so. Given that the hackers and those that would do us harm are always one step ahead. Is it something we can completely mitigate, or do we have to accept that we can get information stolen? What do we do?

RUSSELL: Obviously we don’t want to just accept it. That would be like saying I got stuff in my house and eventually it will get nicked, no matter what I do

MIKE: You don’t leave the front door open and the windows unlocked and then say, oh, somebody nicked my things! If the doors and windows are locked, then you did what you could

RUSSELL: That’s absolutely right. You’ve got to do what you can to protect your data. The problem with any of the measures that you see, your anti-virus you’ve got or your anti-malware or any of the ‘anti’ devices you might install on a piece of hardware, and you might have physical precautions that you put in place. Like where you store your computer equipment. All these things, people are constantly, if there’s a benefit of them getting access to your technology, your data, then they are going to work a way to try and break it. You can’t actually ever get rid of the risk and the real problem is, in this digital world, you got to constantly keep up with it. It sounds like a burden, but there are people out there to help you

MIKE: I would draw us back to a comment made earlier in the conversations. It’s all about attitude and people and approach. If people have the right thinking around technology and security and they’re thinking about and aware of it, the biggest mitigation that you can have, rather than trying to put every single measure you can think of in place.

RUSSELL: Yes, otherwise you just end up with this horrendous technological burden, security burden which, apart from being expensive to implement, would be expensive to maintain. It could also make you working environment difficult, there has to be a balance in maintaining confidentiality, technical security against being able to operate a business.

MIKE: Absolutely.

RUSSELL: So, we do ask our experts to sum up with some top tips - give us one to kick off...

MIKE: Understand whether you have any duties of confidentiality, any obligation, any professional standards that you need to abide by. Whether you’re and accountant or therapist or a clinician or anything like. If you got something you need to abide by you need to make sure you aware of those.

RUSSELL: I’ve put some examples of some of those codes of practice on our show page for this episode. You also need to understand the situations when you may have to break that confidentially, they do exist. There’s something called the Police and Criminal Evidence Act which enables the Police to come in and request of you...

MIKE: And even that’s not cut and dried. If you get a request you’ve got to validate it and make sure they aren’t just fishing for information and that they’ve got a legitimate reason for requesting you break that confidence.

RUSSELL: That brings us to protecting the confidential information - Set your policies, processes and procedures up and for paperwork in filing system ask yourself, who has access, are the rooms and cabinet secure enough. Is t sufficient for the data I’m storing in there.

MIKE: As for storing information on technology. That’s got a whole different set of challenges. You’ve got to make sure it’s stored securely, transferred security and that there are measures in place. And then back to informing your people about the rules and requirements they need to follow.

RUSSELL: Finally, make sure you are clear on what you would do if confidentiality is breached. How would you report it and record it. Then you might have to deal with the fall out, telling the affected people of the breach, and organisations, and then you might need to work to manage professional bodies, if you’re a member of any. You may even need to get in touch with the media and make sure you’re well training in the media to so you don’t do a Gerald Ratner on your situation.

MIKE: Yes, and for all the listeners out there, if you’re doing data breach processes for your data protection, then that’s a good template for how to deal with breaches in confidentiality. So make sure you’re up to date with that. These all good basic tips to give confidentiality a chance in your organisation. So that’s about it for confidentiality at the moment... I doubt this will be the last time it raises its head in Sydeline

RUSSELL: We’ll have to wait and see, but I think you’re right. That leaves me to wrap up this episode and encourage you to get busy liking, rating, sharing and commenting on the podcast site you’re using.

MIKE: There is always the opportunity for you to be a guest in a future episode, we’re already have a healthy line-up

RUSSELL: Unless we get more no-shows of course

MIKE: I’m sure he was just very busy! So... if you have a hot topic to discuss, I’m sure Sydeline might suffer a related issue in the near future for you to comment on. Check out the show notes page on our website and we look forward to you company next time in “I Have A Dream” in which Zelda’s premises are coming together... Or coming apart, I wonder which!

RUSSELL: I wonder...

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Timings * 00:15 - Scene 4.1 A Matter of Equity * 05:28 - Scene 4.2 The Devil and the Angel * 06:52 - Scene 4.3 It's Katherine Kash * 09:25 - Discussion with Dan Orasnjak * 09:48 - Lang Bennetts Introductions * 11:04 - Organisational Structures * 14:30 - Share allocation * 16:00 - Equity * 17:48 - Angel Investors * 19:25 - Investor exit strategy * 20:11 - Partnership and Shareholder agreements * 21:32 - Lessons: Sole Trader tax return planning * 24:15 - Lessons: Enterprise Investment Scheme traps * 26:00 - Top tips for Start-ups * 27:40 - Research and Tax Credits * 28:32 - What's next?

Useful Information Organisational Structure (@11:04) * Choosing the right business structure - article (gov.uk)

Shares and Equity (@14:30) * Setup a private limited company - page (gov.uk)

Investors (@19:25) * EIS - Enterprise Investment Scheme - page (gov.uk) * SEIS - Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme - page (gov.uk) * Angel Investment Network - Site (angelinvestmentnetwork.co.uk) * The difference between angel investment and venture capital - article (virginstartup.org)

Top tips for those thinking of starting a business (@26:00) * Know your market * Prepare Profit and Loss forecasts * Understand your cash flow * Plan for your tax * See a professional sooner rather than later * Know where you are going

Episode script A Matter of Equity The Devil and the Angel It's Katherine Kash A Matter of Equity

CONTINUITY: Zelda and Jakob meet, once again, in her temporary office at the Dog and Bone. Zelda sits staring intently at the screen of a brand-new laptop.

JAKOB: Morning Zelda, thought I’d find you here… You found any premises yet?

ZELDA: I’ve been negotiating with dad on the vacant industrial unit he has on the Bunkum Industrial Estate

JAKOB: And how has that been going?

ZELDA: Well, he keeps mentioning money and I keep reminding him that I’m his only daughter and I’ve never asked for anything… Like this!

JAKOB: And his response was…

ZELDA: He knocked 20% of the rental price

JAKOB: Well, that’s not bad

ZELDA: To £5000 a month

JAKOB: Holy smoke! What size is this place?

ZELDA: I think he said 12 and half thousand square feet

JAKOB: (Choking) So, you haven’t been to see it yet! Let me have a chat to him about it. I am a bit concerned that you are aiming too big as a start up. Why would you need all that space?

ZELDA: Well, the product needs a lot of people in manufacturing. Automating it with machinery will reduce the space needed but adds more expense. Look, I have been working out the options (passing her mass of paper work over the table)

JAKOB: You have been busy… (Flicking through the first pile). I think I need to introduce to you one of my team, Katherine. She’s my money whizz and can help you put a realistic finance plan together.

ZELDA: Oh that would be great… That will be weight off my mind.

JAKOB: Katherine will help you put it together, not do it for you.

ZELDA: Oh, ok… I’ve got other things to do, but I guess th..th..that’s fine

JAKOB: That brings me onto another matter. I’m ready to register Sydeline with Companies house and we need to decide on the shares

ZELDA: Well, 1 share for me… That’s it isn’t it

JAKOB: Ok, right… So… What about me?

ZELDA: (Sweetie) You’re my Angel?!

JAKOB: Yes… Yes I am. (Dwelling on the way Zelda said it) OK, let’s put it another way. What are you putting into the business

ZELDA: 110%

JAKOB: Money-wise!

ZELDA: Oh, well… I could put my savings in, thats about 18,000

JAKOB: Riiiiight! What about your apartment?

ZELDA: Dad bought that for me

JAKOB: I know, but you’re lucky to not have a mortgage on it then – you could put that on the table too – you are serious about this business aren’t you?

ZELDA: Yes, yes, absolutely. Oh heck, I thought you and dad would help me get going!

JAKOB: Well your dad hasn’t handed the key of that industrial unit over for nothing so I would suspend that idea for a while. And, as you said, I’m an Angel Investor, I am looking for a return on my time and money.

ZELDA: But you’re stinking rich

JAKOB: True, but you don’t get rich giving it away… Although everyone thinks you should once you’ve got it!

ZELDA: So you want… What.. 10% of the business?

JAKOB: (Gathers thoughts) Let’s do the maths for a second. You’ve got 18k and, let’s say we can raise 180k with a mortgage on the apartment..

ZELDA: What… Oh.. yeah (down-heartened)

JAKOB: My rough estimates are that to fit out that, or a smaller unit, and hire people and buy stock and other costs – Katherine can help with all this – is going to be (sucking thru teeth) 1 to 2 million? So, I should have the 90%! (Big smile)

ZELDA: (Lengthy stunned silence)

JAKOB: Wh..what are you thinking?

ZELDA: (Puffing, whistles and grunts) 50/50?

JAKOB: Done! I’ll start the company with 200,000 shares and we can have 100,000 each – that will give us flexibility in the future

ZELDA: (Still stunned) 100,000 shares, sure, great, thanks?

JAKOB: I’ll drop you my standard investors agreement over by email, Have you got your Sydeline domain done yet? Oh and I’ll go and pin your dad down on that industrial unit. Lovely to see you Zelda (disappearing quickly)

ZELDA: (Bewildered) Yeah, goodbye, ummm, J. Agreement, good, yep, super… Domain… (shouting after him) Hold on what’s the domain thing again

The Devil and the Angel

CONTINUITY: Somewhat irritated, Jakob bursts into Nero’s office fresh from meeting Zelda

JAKOB: You are a bit of git Zero

NERO: (With wry smile and faux innocent voice) Who me? What have I done to offend you so Jake

JAKOB: JAKOB! Grrr… 60 grand a year for a crappy industrial unit on Bunkum

NERO: Blimey, you are taking it seriously… Ok, ok, I just wanted to see if she would research what a unit should go for on Bunkum. I started high and ended… High. Hehe!

JAKOB: She’s your daughter!

NERO: And the subject of a significant bet for over half my company – you think I should help you win?

JAKOB: Yes… Well (calming down) No, of course not.

NERO: (Going all professional) So, Mr Ja-Kob Oakstock, are you here to negotiate for one of my properties on Bunkum Industrial Estate?

JAKOB: Yes… Wait, “one of my properties”. How many have you got?

NERO: 8, 3 of which are vacant

JAKOB: And the one you offered to Zelda…

NERO: Is the biggest and most dilapidated (big grin)

JAKOB: I repeat my greeting with a modification – You are a gigantic git Zero (smiling)

NERO: Let’s do a real deal then. I may even be nice.

It's Katherine Kash

CONTINUITY: Back to the Dog and Bone where Zelda is approached by a professional looking woman

KATHERINE: H…hello, Are you Zelda Zero?

ZELDA: Yes, yes I am. And you are?

KATHERINE: I thought so, I recognised you from all your Facebook pictures. I’m Katherine Kash, Jakob said you are camping out here whilst you get premises sorted (holding hand to be shook)

ZELDA: Oh, yes, Kat, lovely to meet you. (Enthusiastically shaking hands) Really good of you to pop in and see me.

KATHERINE: No problem. By the way I don’t really like being called Kat

ZELDA: Kitty… Ooo Kitty Kash, that sounds like…

KATHERINE: It’s Katherine, just Katherine… Katherine

ZELDA: Katherine, ok. Glad we got that sorted.

KATHERINE: Jakob suggested you need some support in sorting your financial plan

ZELDA: Oh yes please (relieved). Here are my notes so far.

KATHERINE: Wow, that’s a lot of paper. Have you got any forecasts of your revenue?

ZELDA: Fooorrre…casssts… (Unclear)

KATHERINE: Ok, maybe too early. What are you projected setup costs?

ZELDA: Ah (shuffling through the mass of paper) I’ve had a few ideas on my options

KATHERINE: Oh, ok (flicking through), right, yes, uh huh. So which of these is the most beneficial option

ZELDA: I don’t know, that’s what Jakob thought you could help with

KATHERINE: Oooh, That was nice of him. Have you got any of this on spreadsheet instead of paper?

ZELDA: Ahh, well, you see, I only got this Laptop the other day and I’ve only got email and the internet … I think

KATHERINE: So, no Balance Sheet, Income Statement or CashFlow estimates

ZELDA: Uhhh, no!

KATHERINE: Can I take these and review them? (Getting up)

ZELDA: Sure, don’t lose them though, I don’t have any copies

KATHERINE: Sure thing, I’ll get them back to you as soon as I’ve spoken to Jakob

ZELDA: Great, (shouting after her rapid exit) nice to meet you K, uh, Kit, uh Katherine

Business Finance Setup Discussion Transcript RUSSELL: Ah, at last! We seem to have someone on the scene who knows what they are doing. Now you may think I’m talking about Kat, sorry, Katherine Kash, but I am, today, sitting in the offices of Lang Bennetts in Truro with Dan Orasnjak. Hi Dan

DAN: Hi, nice to be here

RUSSELL: Thanks very much and thanks for joining us. So, before we dive into our discussion on Money, Money, Money, perhaps you could you tell us a little about Lang Bennetts

DAN: Lang Bennetts are an Independent chartered accountancy practice based in Truro. Also with an office in Falmouth. We have grown rapidly over the past three years.. We’ve gone from 30 staff, 3years ago, to 60 staff today. So there’s been rapid organic growth of the last 3 years. We offer a full range of accountancy services. From Payroll, bookkeeping, tax preparation, tax compliance and tax advisory to a variety of clients, be it small start ups all the way through to large established household names.

RUSSELL: Brilliant, so how about yourself, what are your credentials?

DAN: I am a chartered accountant and a chartered tax advisor with over 10 years practice experience. Dealing with a range of clients from start-up and very small, all the way through to large established household names

RUSSELL: So we can trust you to give some good advice then!

DAN: I hope so.

RUSSELL: Perhaps then, we could just go back to the first discussion, or the first part we heard about Jakob and Zelda's respective shares in the business. I think that’s an area that can cause a lot of confusion. It certainly did to us in the early days and we thought we’d done well with a thousand shares. They’ve chosen to go down a limited company route; would that be a reasonable decision do you think?

DAN: The limited company route can work for a couple of reasons. The first is limited liability. The company has liability for debts etc, whereas, if it was formed personally, as a sole trader or partnership, there’d be unlimited liability on the individuals involved. So that’s one reason we see limited companies used. The other is: it’s a tad more straight forward to exchange shares, to change ownership between the individuals or introduce new owners if you need to down the line. There are also reliefs for investors, such as the Enterprise Investment Scheme and Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme which are corporate reliefs for companies. They’re only available for Limited Company structures. So it does facilitate itself for new investors down the line and there are tax breaks for this, which new investors find quite appealing. So the two together can aide raising capital. That said, it’s not right for everyone but limited company can be a good option in some circumstances.

RUSSELL: You mentioned or alluded to a couple other routes. What other options could they have considered

DAN: They could have considered being a partnership. Now there are two routes here, there’s a normal partnership or a Limited Liability Partnership. They’re both very similar but as the latter suggests, there’s limited liability. So it’s slightly more akin to a company in terms of liability as we discussed earlier. That’s actually not a bad decision when you are a young business and you’re possibly not sure where things are going to go in the immediate future. There’s low administration burden with a partnership, and it’s slightly more flexible in allocating profit shares informally. There is always the option as well to start life as a partnership and incorporate into a Limited Company down the line. That’s an attractive option that we see for some start-up businesses that might not know where they’re going to go in the future. That might be a big thing or they might stay as a small trade and a partnership in those instances isn’t a bad idea. Like I say, we can always turn that partnership into a limited company if we start finding that the partnership is very big and for reasons of liability or a tax saving and limited company might then be more appealing

RUSSELL: Ok, So, going back to the limited company. They are obviously seeking to register that company on Companies House and we mentioned that in podcast episode 2. Why would starting with 200,000 shares be a good idea? Seems a ridiculously high number for two people.

DAN: I would ask the same question. I wouldn’t initially recommend starting with 200,000 shares. There is no reason why you couldn’t start the company with 1 share each or 5 shares each or 10 shares each. You could still put the same amount of money in. It’s the percentage ownership that is the key issue and there is no need to put in £200,000 in share capital. It does have an attractive feature of, what we’d call, strengthen the balance sheet. It’s locked in as share capital, so to speak, whereas a loan may to the company would be repayable, possibly on demand, depending on the terms of the loan. So it’s slightly less strong if a loan’s made but I would much rather see, especially in a start-up more minimal shares. Might be a hundred shares split between them or maybe a thousand shares split between them and the rest contributed as, what’s called, share premium or a loan. I don’t see the need for 200,000 shares straight away would be my initial assessment here, and my advice more than likely. Unless there were special circumstances that warranted 200,000 shares. That would be exception rather than the norm in my experience.

RUSSELL: Perhaps Jakob's got some other plans in mind

DAN: Possibly

RUSSELL: Whats going on in Jakob's head at the moment? Jakob wrangled a 50/50 percent equity share - would that be expected by an investor normally?

DAN: It would quite often depend on the stage the business is currently at. In this case, as there is no trading history and not much in the way of financial forecasts, I don’t think a 50/50 split is unreasonable. If somebody was looking to invest in a more established business that had a history of profits, had a history of cashflow, had a history of dividends, you might see a smaller share given because the business has more bargaining power, so to speak. In this case, I think 50/50, probably, is fair enough given that Jakob is, potentially, taking quite a large risk here

RUSSELL: Including the DB5

DAN: Including the DB5! It’s obviously down to the two entities to negotiate and the strength of the hand on each side will be dictated by how long the business has been trading for, its strength, its history, and where it’s going next. The better it can demonstrate where it’s going next the more it has a stronger hand and can get more money for less amount of shares.

RUSSELL: Jakob is probably trying to limit his losses, if he loses anything, apart from the DB5, with 50% he should have some access to the assets of the business.

DAN: Exactly, and with 50% he should have some good upside if the business ends up doing well. It’s probably warranted in this instance.

RUSSELL: I’ve always had this question bubbling in the back of my head about Dragons Den. You see this thing on TV an it has painted an interesting picture of investors. It’s not necessarily one that I’ve experienced It might be appropriate to ask what an angel investor is, at this point? Because some people might not understand what that is

DAN: It can vary. An angel investor is somebody who puts some money into a business and through contacts or experience or a combination of those, will try and help the business grow and take it to new levels. They have a similar interest as the business owner, they own a percentage. They want this business to do as well as possible and that way everyone receives a good pay off. I think, in terms of what an angel investor is. A business should ask questions when an angel investor comes their way or they’re seeking an angel investor. Some of these would be such as, what involvement do you perceive yourself taking here and what can you add to the business?Do they have any experience in that business area? Do they have contacts in that business area? And if so, how involved are they personally going to be? Are you going to hear from them at all, daily, weekly, monthly, annually? What’s their anticipated level of involvement? What’s their expertise? Look at track record. Look at what they’ve done before. See how they can add value to your business. Another key question that needs to be asked, and every angel investor varies, is what’s the exit strategy? How long do they see themselves being involved? And when do they want to receive a pay-off? Because, no doubt, they’ve invested to make money and do they see a company sale in two years, three years, five years? How do we want to end this and how are we going to determine that both parties are going to receive their cash at the end of it? What are our timescales? I think they vary, but that is the general picture and those are the general questions I would certainly be asking to find out what type of angel investor they are and more about the arrangement.

RUSSELL: Ok. So the investor agreement that Jakob alluded to in there is probably quite a legitimate thing to have. It would describe what his role has been, what he’d expect out of the business maybe.

DAN: That’s key. Now you’ve touched on that, I would certainly say when you go into business with anyone, be it partnership, be it limited company, you need either a partnership agreement or a shareholders agreement. So many times we seen people go into business we’ve suggested one of those documents, if it was a partnership or a limited company accordingly. They’ve said we’re never going to fall out with this person, we’ll always have a pint together and we’ll always arrange. If any situation comes up, there’s nothing we can’t fix. Nine months later, there’s a situation that’s come up that they can’t fix. It happens all the time. Be it trivial to quite complicated. A simple pretext down, between them, just agreeing simple things would have saved a lot of hassle and fees down the line. So a shareholders agreement or partnership agreement is absolutely key, it cannot be overlooked.

RUSSELL: Ok, that’s good advice. That brings me to a point - you’ve probably seen some pretty poor financial planning and decision making in your career. Have you got any examples you could share and any lessons seen people learn the hard way?

DAN: Yes! I think a couple come to mind. One very simple problem that I have seen on numerous occasions is somebody who is a sole trader or a partner in a business, is still liable to self-assessment on the business profits. Now what we tend to see happen is a sole trader or partner takes all the business profits as they go. They’re not taxed at source I.e. They’re not subject to PAYE, because they have to do self-assessment. They end up doing a tax return in, what can be, 18 months after the business starts and they get a huge stock when the tax return covers the profits to date plus it want’s a down payment towards next years tax to bring you fully up to date. Now, we’ve quite often seen the business owner, having spent all the business proceeds, and this can be quite large tax bill which catches them by surprise. So anyone who comes in I tend to sit them down and actually forecast their tax bill, given the money they are making. I forecast their tax bill that might be due in a year, 18 months or even 2 years time. And then, with that, they know what they’ve got to put away into a separate tax account or hold somewhere and have sufficient funds so they can pay that tax bill. We’ve had to get some clients on a payment arrangement with HMRC or I’ve had some clients that have actually had to take out a loan to pay the tax. So without that it could have been very serious.

RUSSELL: That does lead to one of the statistics that I read a little while ago that 73% of new start-up are brought down by HMRC.

DAN: That would not surprise me. And it’s some thing that I really do stress, when they start their business. This is one of the key risks. If they don’t save for this, however good their business is, they risk going under if they can’t pay this liability. Such simple steps can be put in place to prevent this. It’s a shame to see it happen. So if people come here, for a meeting, we make sure this is set out and a pathway is given to them early on, so they know their liabilities as they arise.

Thats a common thing I see in the sole trade, partnership arena. Limited company, on the the theme we’ve got here, there is a relief called Enterprise Investment Scheme, which is a very attractive relief for investors. Very attractive, but also very complicated. I’ve seen, sadly, some companies have a go at this themselves. You’re entitled to it, you don’t have to engage somebody to run you through it. But the rules here are so complicated. It’s full of traps. I have seen a company raise funds through some private individuals who thought they were getting a substantial tax relief on giving the money. Sadly, the company broke numerous rules on the EIS relief and I believe, I didn’t act for the individual investors, but, in my opinion, the EIS was invalid. So, one lesson there, is if you do an EIS scheme, engage a professional, it really is that complicated. The reliefs are fantastic but it does need to be done right. There’s a lot of box ticking to do. There’s a lot of things and a lot of rules you mustn’t break and a clear plan needs to be adhered to. I would recommend engaging a professional in that area.

RUSSELL: It’s certainly what we did. And we did get advantage of that and our investor did as well. It was very successful and beneficial to us. So finally, and wrapping up all the advice you’ve given in there, have you got any tips, what top tips would you give to people that are thinking of starting a business?

DAN: I’d say, know your market. Prepare profit and loss, revenue, cost forecast going forwards as far as possible. With that, make sure you include cashflow. Because cashflow, for a start-up, is potentially more important than your profit and loss. Because of where this cash goes in and comes out. Quite often it can go out early and come in slow and hence, that can be a real hole in the finance. Plan for your tax and see a professional as soon as possible in terms of accountancy professional, legal professional. Just to make sure your structure is set-up right from day one. That’s sole trade, partnership, limited company and know where you want to take it going forwards. Then, with the plan in place, you can achieve whatever you want but it’s very wise to set out that plan early because, if you make a wrong step early on, unwinding that plan, if you want to come out of a company, or you’ve setup 3 companies and you want to make 1 company; down the line it can be hard to unwind these thing. So, getting it right first is definitely the way to proceed.

RUSSELL: So ,thanks for that Dan. We remain delighted to have you and Lang Bennetts as our Accountants and I’m sure we’ll be back to talk on another finance subject in the near future. Any that jump to mind that we should cover?

DAN: I think research and development tax credits are a big area that certainly should be looked at and covered in more detail. We’ve found, in fact, we’ve picked up a few clients lately where we’ve seen they had an eligible research and development tax credit claim and this has been missed by other accountants. We’ve amended previous tax returns and done current tax returns with a valid research and development tax credit claim in them. So very valuable relief and something we see missed quite a lot and an awareness of this for businesses out there would certainly be a good idea.

RUSSELL: Yeah, well it’s something we took advantage of and will do so again. If it’s still around. Hopefully it will stay available. Well, that just leaves me to thank you all for listening to Blue Sky Stinking from Gydeline. As ever, please like, comment, share and even volunteer as a future guest speaker - it’s wasn’t that bad was it Dan?

DAN: No, no! Thoroughly enjoyed it.

RUSSELL: Excellent! Next time Sydeline suffers a breach in confidentially in Knowing Me, Knowing You (uh huh).

with special thanks to...

Dan Orasnjak is an experienced Chartered Accountant working for Lang Bennetts. Lang Bennetts, which have offices in Truro and Falmouth in Cornwall, provide a comprehensive range of finance services for start-ups through to large enterprises.

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Timings * 0:27 - Scene 2.1 Like a Dog with a Bone * 5:54 - Discussion * 6:02 - Naming a company * 7:42 - Structuring an organisation * 11:43 - Business Banking * 12:20 - Social Media * 14:30 - Business Advice Books * 17:17 - Other advisory services * 17:45 - Business Networking Groups

Useful Information Company naming, structure and business operations setup (@6:02) * Search the UK Companies House Register * Business Name Builder (Spotify) * Multiple keyword domain checker (NameMesh) * Domain Search (InstantDomainSearch) * Coming up with a company Name (VistaPrint Blog) * The Psychology of Colour in Branding article (HelpScout) * Foreign Word Safety Not Secure * Trademark Register Search * Choosing the Right Business Structure article (CompaniesHouse) * Small Business Money Saving Article (MoneySavingExpert)

Social Media Courses (@12:20) * The Six o'clock Club Events (Eventbrite)

Recommended Books and magazines (@14:30) * Start with Why by Simon Sinek * The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R Covey * The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness by Stephen R Covey * Who Moved My Cheese: An amazing Way to Deal with Change in Your Work and in Your Life by Dr Spencer Johnson * The Intelligent Investor: The Definitive Book on Value Investing – A Book of Practical Counsel by Benjamin Graham * The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America’s Wealthy by Thomas Stanley & William Danko * Zero to One: Notes on Start-Ups, or How to Build the Future by Peter Thiel * Rich Dad Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not! by Robert T Kiyosaki * Six Thinking Hats by Edward De Bono * The E Myth: Why Most Small Businesses Don’t Work and What to Do About It – Michael Gerber * The Art of Thinking Clearly: Better Thinking, Better Decisions by Rolf Dobelli * The Richest Man in Babylon by George S Clason * WIRED magazine

Other places for Advice & Guidance (@17:17) * Local Enterprise Partnerships - Growth Hubs * Gov.uk Starting a Business Guidance * Business Support (HM Government) - Starting a business

Business Networking Groups (@17:45) * Cornish Partnerships (Eventbrite) * Cornwall Business Forum (Website) * The Six O'Clock Club (Eventbrite)

Episode script Like a Dog with a Bone Like a Dog with a Bone

CONTINUITY: We’re back in the Dog and Bone pub. Zelda comes to the table where Jakob is sitting and passes him his Whiskey and Ginger.

JAKOB: Thanks Zelda – I bet your head is spinning with ideas

ZELDA: Yeah it is… Well kinda… Well I’m flummoxed really. I don’t know where to start

JAKOB: Have you done any research into starting a business?

ZELDA: I read “Start with Why” by Simon Sinek

JAKOB: And learnt…?

ZELDA: That I don’t like reading much

JAKOB: And…?

ZELDA: That I need to understand why I want to run my business… and that is to become rich and respected

JAKOB: Ok! I’m not quite sure thats what Mr Sinek envisioned. Any other insights like what steps to take next

ZELDA: I need to work out the What and How or the How and What… One or the other. Have you any advice?

JAKOB: Well, I’ve helped many companies by mentoring their founders through… (Interrupted)

ZELDA: I need money… Lot’s of money to buy offices, manufacturing space, stock, hire people, you know

JAKOB: (bit stunned) So you know what your business does now then?

ZELDA: Nope, not a clue. Didn’t a famous man say “Build it and they will come”

JAKOB: Well Kevin Costner said it in the film Field of Dreams – Jim Morrison may also have said something like it in Waynes World 2?

ZELDA: No, no, no a famous person said it…

JAKOB: umm, God said it to Noah about the animals coming to the ark?

ZELDA: That’s the one… God knows what he’s talking about, right.

JAKOB: If you believe that kind of thing… But do you think that’s a good strategic approach?

ZELDA: Strategy! STRATEGY! You sound like my dad. You’re not like my dad are you? Please say you’re not my dad. If you are I can’t work with you

JAKOB: No, no, NO! I’m not like your dad. Please don’t look at me like that. I believe in you, probably more than your father does. We just need to make sure that any investment is wise and will give me…uh… you a return

ZELDA: You’ll give me the money? That’s amazing. You really get me don’t you!

JAKOB: Yes I do, and more as each moment goes by

ZELDA: So do we have a deal

JAKOB: Well, I’ll have to work out the paperwork

ZELDA: Great, great – get your people to contact my people (waving him away)

JAKOB: But, Y… you, haven’t got any people

ZELDA: Oh yeah… Could I use dads?

JAKOB: I don’t think that would be a good idea

ZELDA: Oh yeah secrecy laws and all that..

JAKOB: Secrecy laws? What do you m…(interrupted)

ZELDA: I could go into competition with Zero’s Heroes. I know the business inside out, I have the contacts, we could undercut the prices and crush him (maniacally)

JAKOB: Do you think that’s a good idea?

ZELDA: Err, probably not, but exciting. Hmmm, there was that product line he found unprofitable – I bet I could make that work

JAKOB: Right… H…h…how?

ZELDA: You know… Cut costs, squeeze the workers… All the good business stuff. Also I want to rock social media

JAKOB: It’s certainly an element of marketing that needs consideration in the modern marketplace

ZELDA: I’ve got thousands, well, at least hundreds, of friends on Facebook, probably 85 people following my instagram and I bet I could be a wonderful twitterer if I knew what it did. Add all those together and apply it to this venture and boom! We’re all millionaires… Well I am, your already a millionaire

JAKOB: Billionaire actually… But anyway, I’m sure you could. I love your enthusiasm and I long to make this a reality. How do we turn that in to a business, do you think? Firstly, are you going to commit to this full time or do it as a sideline to working with Zeros?

ZELDA: Sideline, Sideline… Hmmm…. That’s a great name for the company. (Mimicking telephone answering) “Hello, Sideline, Zelda speaking how may I make your day” (Advertising voice) “Sideline… Doing stuff for less than Zeros”. Yes, yes, Welcome to Sideline Mr Oakstock – nice to have you on board.

JAKOB: Onboard… What… Errr… Thank you… Yes, errr. (Unenthusiastically) woo hoo ?

ZELDA: Fancy another drink to celebrate (running off the bar and shouting back) Oh, write your name on a napkin so I don’t forget your genius

JAKOB: (Bewildered) Sure, why not, MY genius! (shouting after her) Better make mine a double!

Business Operations Setup Discussion Transcript MIKE: So this week, Zelda has prompted us to talk though some of the basics of setting up a new business and has, quite rightly, decided that a company name is important

RUSSELL: And the name Sideline was a bit of a flash of inspiration... I think. It’ll be interesting to know whether that sticks because picking a company name is not as easy as it seems

MIKE: No, if I remember correctly I think we went through over, well, hundreds of names before settling we finally settled on Gydeline

RUSSELL: And that wasn’t the one we started with- we incorporated with a different name! You have to consider whether it is available first and doesn’t clash with another organisation on company registers.

MIKE: And then you have availability of domain names, which are available and which domains you wish to register - whether it’s a .co.uk, .com, .org, .biz, or .just about anything you like nowadays. Does it fit your product, your style and your values.

RUSSELL: A further issue to cover, especially if you make a word up, is that it doesn’t mean something somewhat inappropriate in a different language.

MIKE: And then you’ve got to make sure you do checks on Trademark registers. You might be able to get your name at Companies House and that might be available along with the domain, but someone might have registered the name as a trademark - and you have to think internationally as well

RUSSELL: And that depends on the market you’re targeting. Trademarks is bound to come up with Zelda and Jakob at some point in the future, so I think we can talk about that then

MIKE: No doubt! We found a few interesting articles on company naming and we’ll put the links on the episode page on the show notes. So, you mentioned company registers, you do need to decide what structure of organisation you want to setup.

RUSSELL: Yeah. There’s a range of different organisation you might consider setting up. There’s Sole Trader, wouldn’t necessarily have you registering with Companies House. Limited company, Limited Liability Partnerships or Business Partnerships. Even social enterprises and charities; all have different requirements. They all have different considerations. They have different benefits and different drawbacks. So we’ll also point you to guidance on that as well, because picking your structure is a key stage of forming the business..

MIKE: One thing Zelda seems to be lacking, though, is a product or service

RUSSELL: Which could make forming a price list coming up with an ‘offer’ and finding potential customers a very tricky challenge indeed

MIKE: Quite. So, she has no basis for undertaking any market research into her venture. She does need to decide what exactly she is going to do. Her natural conclusion, and based on experience, was to compete with her dad.

RUSSELL: Obviously, it’s an industry she’s has worked in and hopefully she understands, but again, crushing her father in business is a somewhat unrealistic stance. I think Jakob said that if she wanted to do that she’d have to have a pretty robust strategy as to how she was going to attack it... And what is her problem with Strategy?

MIKE: Well it seems to be something we’ve seen with lot’s of people we’ve worked with, that it seems to be difficult, it seems to be burdensome something that’s been struggled with before. Perhaps Zelda’s seen her dad angst-ridden over what the strategy should be. So her approach is much more laissez-faire, she’ll make it up as she goes along and everything will be alright.

RUSSELL: There’s also an element where the strategy could be seen as a great big wall of work. And it could be unrealistic, People think of a strategy, Oh no, that’s just sitting around talking and creating a report and they don’t need to do that

MIKE: And as we know, and as we’ve seen with start ups, they want to get on, they want to do things, they want to be out there selling and promoting and branding and logos without putting some foundational pieces in place and having a strategy, is one of those foundational pieces. But one of those foundational pieces that really needs attention is her work place

RUSSELL: Very much so. She’s ended up in the pub having a discussion with Jakob and we’ll have to see where that goes. You need somewhere comfortable to work and quiet to work. It’s not good to be clearing a space on the kitchen table among the morning's breakfast dishes isn't going to set you up for a productive and inspiring day. Imagine the sight of piles of ironing or half-done DIY to distract you.

MIKE: Says the voice of experience?

RUSSELL: Maybe. Probably worse would be working out of a public place like a coffee shop or pub

MIKE: Especially when there are good co-working spaces that are usually available for short term rent. There are some government funded buildings that offer great spaces at competitive rates

RUSSELL: Yeah, we work in a new one. It’s great, unless you’re trying to record a podcast. Which is why we’re sitting in my lounge.

MIKE: No echo and good coffee machine. Which brings us to another key consideration, equipment

RUSSELL: I think we’re going to have to wait and see what Zelda is going to do before deciding on equipment; What kind of product will she produce, what kind of service is she going to provide. Suffice to say there will likely be a need for a computer, software and a phone at least

MIKE: Well let’s leave equipment for another time and talk money. Specifically the need to get a bank account and, possibly an accountant

RUSSELL: Yes, because getting a business bank account is harder and takes longer than you might imagine

MIKE: And even in this online digital world, the need to demonstrate you are who you say you are still tends to rely on some paper going to one of the dwindling number of bank branches

RUSSELL: I don’t think anybody should think it will be quick and easy to set a business bank account up. They need to plan ahead, You can’t expect that to be done quickly... once you have a name and company structure of course. Zelda mentioned social media marketing... In marketing terms, is that all that’s needed?

MIKE: Not really, no. Social media is a key aspect in marketing and sales today. As is a really good website. But nothing can beat, and there’s been a resurgence in face to face networking, so some other things like business cards and promotional material remain important in that battle to be noticed in the crowd.

RUSSELL: And the amount of effort required to make social media a productive source of leads should not be under estimated

MIKE: The biggest benefit of social media is it can be used for free. However, you need to money on the right bits of promotion to accelerate your growth. The number of people that spend a vast amount of time on social media for no return. So that’s something to be aware of. It’s an area that Zelda could with some training in, I’m sure about that.

RUSSELL: Yes and there’s lots of people training in social media, We’ll put some of those on the episode page. The final thing I thought we could mention, with regards to starting up a business is Passion. Starting a business is an amazing and rewarding experience, as we’ve had – it's also the beginning of a journey that's likely to have its fair share of frustrations, disappointments and late nights. If you're going to make your business a success, you need to have the drive and self-belief to make it through the tough times.

MIKE: And sometimes the difference between business failure and success is simply that drive and passion to see it through and the tough times. Having said that, I think Zelda does seem to have some passion

RUSSELL: She’s certainly got some passion about her abilities. Whether they’re founded or not is yet to be seen! Do you think Jakob is handling that passion?

MIKE: Not sure what Jakob is doing at the moment. He’s clearly going to back Zelda's venture but her motivation is to become “rich and respected”. That’s not really the, for example, the “Why” Simon Sinek what talking about.

RUSSELL: Yes, Zelda mentioned she’d read that, what core understanding did she miss in that book?

MIKE: I think it's a mistake a lot of people make. They they focus on an outcome “to be rich and respected”, “to earn money to grow your business”. That's not really the why that he’s talking about. He's talking about the the underpinning emotional driver that says “why am I doing this”. Am I doing this because I really care. Am I doing this because I want to make people's lives better. So that why that really matters to you is the thing that will keep your motivation going through those tough times and that's really what she wants to. Not focus on the outcome. So, that's a good example of a book about starting or improving a business. Is there anything else that you think we should recommend on that note?

RUSSELL: Well, as you know, I’m not the biggest fan of reading and tend to fall back on audio books and snippets - I’m a bit of a snippet monkey, but I’ve always been drawn to Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and his Eighth Habit book as well. It’s not everybody's cup of tea. It’s not specifically about start-up business. It’s more about you being a more effective individual and that obviously translates into a better business. I think it’s what works for you and you have to try a few before you find advice that sits well with you and aligns to your way of thinking. You’re a bigger reader. Have you any reading recommendations?

MIKE: Yeah, I am a big reader of business advice books and I think the advantage and challenge of these books is that there is a lot of them out there. They cover a lot of different areas. Such as, entrepreneurship or money management or investment or the practicalities of running a business, or stories about the growth of a certain business whether it be Google, Facebook or Walmart or whatever, or Stories about an entrepreneurs life. So it’s very difficult to say here’s one book that will answer or sit with the needs that you have. What I will do, in the show notes we’ll put a list of the books we think are really useful. We’ll give you some clues as to the areas that they’ll help with and, it’s not just books. There are places you can go for inspiration and guidance. So maybe we’ll post some of those in the show notes as well.

RUSSELL: Yes, and some of those other places are government funded, at least in part EU funded currently in the UK. There are places like Growth Hubs all over the country which can act as signposts to other funded help.

MIKE: These are great, especially if you’re on your first venture and learning the business ropes. Business planning, market analysis and skills development and training are usually available. It’s also worth hunting out your local business networks

RUSSELL: Very much so. We are involved in a number of networking groups which provide access to arranged events, usually free. Some of these groups require some kind of fee to join, nothing too hefty but you can usually go to a few events before needing to join or anything like that. We’ll list a few in the link area as an illustration and if any networking groups want to add to that list, please comment and we’ll ad them on.

MIKE: Yes, let us know. And if you’ve got any other comments about what you’ve heard . About where you think Zelda, Jakob and Nero are going. Please post them, we’d be so delighted to hear your comments and get your feedback. Share this and review this and we’ll keep, hopefully, keep bringing you some fun and some educational content. So, until next time...

RUSSELL: Thanks very much for joining us

MIKE: Thanks for listening.

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