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Episode 300- Do Not Engage in “Maritime Salvage” Just Yet. Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 11

Gun Lawyer — Episode 300 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey gun ban, Third Circuit Court, Second Amendment, Judge Friedman, assault firearms, large capacity magazines, Supreme Court decision, July 31 date, mandate, stay of implementation, common use, federal gun laws, interstate commerce, carry permit, socialism.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:20

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:23

And this is Gun Lawyer. I need to give everyone a warning. Do NOT engage in maritime salvage from boating accidents until given the all clear.

Teddy Nappen 00:39

You might find a few bodies in Jersey.

Evan Nappen 00:41

Well, the reason for this is, of course, we’re all extremely excited about the Third Circuit Court of Appeals en banc decision killing and pronouncing dead the New Jersey 36-year-old ban on so-called “assault firearms” and so-called “large capacity magazines”. (https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/242415p.pdf) I mean, we’ve known it’s a violation of the Second Amendment ever since the day it passed, but finally getting to this day is wonderful. Just a great day for freedom and liberty and shoving it up New Jersey’s butt. It is great. It is great.

Evan Nappen 01:26

However, in practical terms, a lot of the key questions that are out there. Are we good to go? Can we buy these guns? Can we buy these mags? What’s the story? What’s the deal? I’m going to explain to you where we’re at with that, and that’s the important thing that I know a lot of you want to know. At the moment, we’ve got to just let the dust settle here because there’s certain formalities and deadlines and procedures that can happen. Yes, we have the win. We have the win. It’s a fantastic win. It’s a decision which was 10 – 5. It was brilliant. We absolutely crushed it. Page – 2 – of 11 Page – 3 – of 11

Evan Nappen 02:07

The decision was written by Judge Freeman, who, by the way, the judge who wrote this magnificent decision was a Biden appointee, and the first female judge of color. That’s right, a woman of color. The first on the Appellate Court and a Biden appointee – who is giving us this fantastic Second Amendment decision, which is restoring freedom and helping to stop oppression of our Second Amendment rights. So, you know, this is important because it’s how it should be. Those that believe in rights, whatever you might think of the bat might be their politics. It’s everybody’s Second Amendment. It’s everybody’s right. And if you’re going to follow the Constitution and you’re going to be a judge that follows the Constitution and does not goes for politics, then this is the right thing to do. So, I take my hat off to Judge Freeman. It is a great decision. Extraordinarily thorough.

Evan Nappen 03:27

I understand her background was that in being a public defender as well, and I’m sure that she saw what these laws do to good people and how unfair and unbelievably stupid they are. We now see the results of all the incredible hard work that’s been done over years that got us to this point. So, we’re all just jumping for joy, and it’s really making clear that the so-called assault weapon, assault firearm bans, even across the country, are on their deathbed or are being killed and dying. Even with the U.S. Supreme Court having taken the Viramonti and Grant cases now. We’re going to get a federal Supreme Court decision that’ll come out in June 2027. This New Jersey Appeals Court decision is, of course, going to I’m sure come into play in their decision making there, and it is a great day for us for sure.

Evan Nappen 04:37

However, how does it work now that we have that decision? How will it work in practical terms? This is where some patience is necessary. Some important patience is called for. And that’s because you may have heard, and if not, I’m going to mention to you, that there was an email that was sent out to dealers from the State Police Firearms Unit. It went out and it said that that essentially July 31st, July 30-first, they’re going to the this will become effective, meaning the court case effective. It was kind of weirdly written with this date, and it seemed to indicate that July 30-first, everything was going to be free flowing, and we were going to be good to go. But it wasn’t really. It basically put everyone thinking. Okay, July 31 is some kind of key date, and that’s when we’re going to know. Why would they even pick that? Like, what is going on? So let me explain that date and what’s really happening. As a matter of fact, our good friend, John Petrolino, at Bearing Arms, recently had an article that says “NJ AG Backtracks on Date of Gun and Magazine Ban’s Demise”. (https://bearingarms.com/john-petrolino/2026/07/23/nj-ag-backtracks-on-date-gun-magazine-ban-demise-n1233262)

Evan Nappen 06:10

The backtracking is as follows. This is what’s going on. That July 31 date, which Bearing Arms and Petrolino got the word from Davenport’s office. Davenport is the Attorney General that is saying. “We have until July 31, 2026 to petition the court for rehearing, and then seven days later on August 7, 2026 is when the decision is effective”. So, that’s where they’re coming from. Are they going to petition for a rehearing now? Just because they petition for a rehearing doesn’t mean that a rehearing is going to get granted, and I frankly think it’s unlikely that it’s going to get granted. Page – 4 – of 11

Evan Nappen 07:08

Now, in addition to this mix, is what’s called the mandate. A good friend and colleague, who was the lead counsel and fought hard on this very case, Dan Schmutter, a great Second Amendment attorney, was speaking to John (Petrolino) and also explained that there’s this mandate. Essentially, what he said is, “The mandate is the actual order . . .” That’s the direction to the lower court to implement the ruling, and that mandate is basically an August 10t date. So, August 10 is going to be a critical date in understanding the practical aspects of when and if these firearms and magazines will again be bought, sold, and possessed in New Jersey. And that’s why we’re putting advice out about not doing any maritime salvage for any boating accidents on recovery until we have an understanding of where we’re at here.

Evan Nappen 08:32

Now, there may even be a stay granted, a stay of the implementation of the mandate. That would mean we’d be in a holding pattern until that stay gets lifted. This might, in fact, happen, and then that will ride until we get the (U.S.) Supreme Court rendering its decision. New Jersey also might try to go for (U.S.) Supreme Court review, what we call certiorari, and that may end up bringing it into or making it part of or put on hold with the Supreme Court case pending in Viramontes and Grant. This is all out there in the mix.

Evan Nappen 09:15

So, the number one takeaway from all this is – Don’t do anything yet. We have all the reason to be extremely happy, to be joyous, to realize that all our hard work is paying off. But at the moment, don’t take any steps yet, so that you don’t end up in a giant GOFU. And doing something now is the GOFU. That’s this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU, even though we normally do it at the end of the show, let me just tell you right now, the GOFU is that. Do NOT do anything different right now. Don’t buy or order magazines. Don’t possess any of the firearms that may fall under the current ban. You may be seeing things online where people are claiming that they’re buying and selling and doing. I wouldn’t be doing that right now. Even though I’m confident in our victory, it still isn’t a done deal. The old “wait till the fat lady sings” deal. Well, it applies here. There’s still the risk. And during that time period, right now, before we have the definitive legal standing, so we can say you have the green light. We’re all good. You’re taking a risk that you don’t want to take. So that is the point.

Teddy Nappen 10:48

One of the things in reading the case, Dad, just kind of going through, they outline the full breakdown of using Bruen of how they essentially destroy it with the test, the two-part test. The Second Amendment plain text covers the individual’s conduct, and then clicks to the next one. And also says it must demonstrate the regulations consist of nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. They show the combination of this with Wolford as well. Wolford goes into the three subsidiaries where applies, what is people, all members of political community, and then goes into arms. Arms is the game because that was the whole crux was the issue of common use. That was the entire thing that the Left have been trying, the dangerous and unusual. It was clearly outlined in the opinion talking about the idea of common use, both with the AR-15s and assault firearms, but with mags as well. They even highlight that where the I almost read like Scalia, where he used to you know. If you ever read his opinions, he always joked and made like little snide remarks. It was very funny. But with the 24 million AR-15s, this Page – 5 – of 11

is right out of the case, 24 million AR-15s and similar sporting rifles, the classification that can be determined are in common use, lawful purposes, typically common standard. With a 20 to 30-round mag, up to 100 million 30-round mags in the United States, magazines are in circulation. That sets the degree of common use.

Evan Nappen 12:38

Let me tell you why that’s so important. Because once common use, you have that, and it actually has a reverse burden from this case. Common use is shown. It’s done. It’s there. We, as those challenging the laws, that burden isn’t on us, and it makes it now so that the State has to demonstrate the Bruen test. So, this is very significant because of how it addresses common use. And, of course, these semi-automatic firearms and their magazines are, it’s undisputable. It’s indisputable that they’re in common use. There’s more AR-15s than there are Ford F-150s out there. So, this is great. And you know the gun rights oppressors realize that their days are numbered, don’t you think, Teddy? Don’t you think they realize that?

Teddy Nappen 13:55

Well, not only that, they’re putting out newsletters crying about it. I mean, cut to right now, The Trace. Literally, they just admitted defeat right from The Trace. “New Jersey Just Lost Its Assault Weapon Ban. Here’s Why That Matters for the Rest of the Country.” (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/07/state-assault-weapons-ban-new-jersey/) They admit it. In Delaware. The challenges in Chicago. All the different ones that are currently in play to take out the assault weapon bans. They even go into that it’s been part of. It’s been, they’ve been a synonym, the assault weapons and the gun control debate. Oh, really? It just shows the outlandishness of the debate, really.

Evan Nappen 14:39

Yeah. Well, they know it, and this issue for them has been such a magnificent fundraising, pearl clutching, issue for them, and it is going to be bye bye. Across the board on gun laws challenges, they are losing, losing, losing, losing.

Teddy Nappen 15:07

The one thing I will say, and I always like reading the dissent. This is the mindset of the Left of how they, and pulling right from the dissent here where they go into it. The rights secured by our founders in the Second Amendment is not unlimited. They always cite that to Heller. It has never been understood that the guarantee of a right to keep and bear arms, to carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever, or for whatever purpose. Instead, the Second Amendment allows states to ban certain types of firearms. I don’t remember that in the Second Amendment. I don’t remember those words.

Evan Nappen 15:50

Well, here’s a funny little thought that occurred to me about this. Once the dust settles, and ARs and mags and semi-auto rifles and all the, you know, intrinsically evil guns that the oppressors hate. Once they’re all good to go in New Jersey, the definition of assault firearm. That term, assault firearm. That definition is still found in New Jersey law. It’s just that the ban is found to be unconstitutional. The ban, right? The prohibition. But the definition of that term is still in law. That’s found under firearm definitions. It’s found there. The ban itself is found in a different section. That’s under N.J.S. 2C:58-5.(f). It’s a Page – 6 – of 11

different section. That’s where it’s banned. It’s made a crime of the second degree to possess any of these guns without a permit to carry an assault firearm, or it having been registered or rendered inoperable. Right there in the statute. If you don’t have any of those exceptions, then you are a violator. If you violate it, if you’re convicted, you’re looking at up to 10 years in State Prison, with a minimum mandatory three and a half years. It’s draconian and insane.

Evan Nappen 17:28

So, the law, the law itself, that is the ban. That’s the 39-5 law. That’s where the ban is. The definition is in 39-1. However. However, what’s very interesting is New Jersey has, under 58-5. That’s N.J.S. 2C:58-5. They have the license to carry and possess an assault firearm. Now that license to carry an assault firearm mandated two things in order to get it. One is that you first have a permit to carry a handgun, and of course, when that law was put in place, you know, there were less than 600 citizens that even had permits to carry a handgun. Now, there’s 100,000 approximately or more that have a permit to carry a handgun. So, that one has already been met.

Evan Nappen 18:33

Then the other thing you had to show was that somehow it was in the public interest for you to have this. However, that standard, those standards, even the standard for carry of justifiable need, the standards have been eviscerated by Bruen. You can’t have those standards. You can’t have those standards on a carry. So, what is left in place, my friends, is an assault firearm carry license. Let that sink in. So, in other words, not only by the definition that still exists are these guns there as a list, but New Jersey has a carry permit waiting for you to obtain, so that you can carry those guns. They can no longer ban them, but they have a license to carry them that you can get. And not only will you be able to get it, you’ll be able to get it and have the guns. Because you can’t ban the guns. So, now, their carry permit that they put in to somehow work as an impossible to get exemption can now be turned against them, and can be used so that we can even get licenses to carry the list of guns that they so radically expanded to the features of the ’97 guidelines and anything substantially identical in the list of 67 guns, etc. So, their laws are going to come back, as they are, and bite them in the ass, as it should be. Keep that in mind.

Teddy Nappen 20:21

It’ll be really, it would be really funny, Dad. If we somehow could interview Josh Sugarman. Just to ask him, like his literally the thing, the term that he used is now going to codify as the de facto defense to allow people to have and possess the firearms.

Evan Nappen 20:39

And not just possess, but to be able to carry. Because New Jersey has a so-called assault firearm carry license. The definition of assault firearm is one statute, and the carry license is another. What the decision is invalidating is the ban, is the ban, and New Jersey has a vehicle in place already in law to apply to carry them. So, there you go. Another little tidbit to consider.

Evan Nappen 21:13

And I’ll tell you something else, Teddy. I have a really important case to talk about that may even be more significant, if you can believe it. More significant than this entire battle over assault firearms. Page – 7 – of 11

Because this issue may completely wipe out the key foundation of federal gun laws. I’m gonna tell you about it in a moment. But first I want to tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot. Where we get our certifications, where we get our training, and where we love to enjoy our range time. Now WeShoot, as many of you know, has a fantastic pro shop. There are such a great bunch of folks, and they have many different programs, training, and offerings.

Evan Nappen 22:12

One of the things they’re offering right now that I want to talk about, that I think is really, really great is they’re offering New Jersey carry certification, CCARE, but specifically they’re offering a course for seniors. For seniors. They have a very welcoming, senior-friendly program designed to make the process simple, comfortable, and easy to understand. With WeShoot’s extremely experienced instructors, they’re able to provide a safe and supportive and a pressure-free environment where you can build your confidence, improve your skills, and gain the knowledge necessary so you can carry responsibly. This course is really a great idea, and it is something that if you are a senior and you are looking to be able to protect yourself, because that is our right, and of course, as a senior, you know you’re not as physically capable as you used to be.

Evan Nappen 23:30

This course has basic firearm safety as a component. There’s safe handling and loading, unloading, and storage techniques. They do easy to understand instruction in use of force, how to do holster safely, safety with holsters, and how to properly draw. Then you do the live fire qualification. All this is step-by-step guidance, including through the New Jersey permit application process. So, this is a great service that is being offered by WeShoot. If you or anyone you know is a senior and they want to be able to get their permit to carry, here’s a great opportunity to be introduced and learn properly, correctly, and get the credentials that you need to do it from We Shoot. Check out weshootusa.com. Their beautiful website with fantastic photography. And don’t miss the WeShoot girls when you go on their website. You’ll love it. WeShoot is the place. They’re right there, conveniently located in central Jersey. Conveniently, right off the Parkway there. Check it out.

Evan Nappen 24:49

Let me also mention my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Make sure you have your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. It will guide you through the insane matrix of New Jersey gun laws, and it is something that I’m looking forward to seeing be made smaller, being made a smaller volume. That’d be nice as we keep chopping away the gun laws. But New Jersey still has many of these laws to go, and you need to make sure that you don’t become a GOFU. So, go to evannappen.com, evannappen.com, and get your book today.

Evan Nappen 25:37

Now, Teddy, there is a really important development taking place in the Fifth Circuit, and it’s all because of Saint Thomas. That is what we call Justice (Clarence) Thomas, one of the greatest judges on the Supreme Court, of course. He, interestingly, laid out a challenge. He laid out a challenge in the recent Supreme Court decision in (United States v.) Hemani. In Hemani, Justice Thomas said, “The Commerce Clause does not authorize Congress to ‘regulate or ban possession of any item that has Page – 8 – of 11

ever been offered for sale or crossed state lines'”. Then Thomas wrote. “Otherwise, federal commerce authority becomes “a general police power of the sort retained by the States.”

Evan Nappen 26:58

Now that is a fascinating gauntlet thrown down by Judge Thomas, and it has now been picked up by the Fifth Circuit. And a great article on this by Duncan Johnson from Ammoland. The article is: “Fifth Circuit Takes Justice Thomas Up on Challenge to Federal Gun-Control Power”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2026/07/fifth-circuit-squire-922g-federal-gun-ban/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=1fc1371d30-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-1fc1371d30-21268623) And yes, it does.

Evan Nappen 27:22

Because what Thomas is doing there is going at the federal power of interstate commerce. Now, let me tell you, folks. There’s only certain powers that the federal government has, and all the other powers out there are reserved to the states. So, what are the powers of the federal government? Well, there’s three primary powers that the federal governments have. And if the laws are not founded within those powers, if the powers aren’t there, then there’s no jurisdiction for the law that the Government has passed. So, the key federal powers are the power of taxation. That’s one power. The military power. And the power of interstate commerce. Those are the powers in the Constitution given to the federal Government. All the other powers go to the states.

Evan Nappen 28:24

So, you see that every federal law, every federal law, has to be based on one of those three powers. Otherwise, there’s no jurisdiction for the law. So, originally, way back, the key power that was used by the federal government were two: military and the power of taxation. And you see, the power of taxation that was the first power used to pass a national gun control law, the National Firearms Act of 1934. The NFA is based on the power of taxation. That’s why you get a tax stamp. That’s why ATF and all were originally part of Treasury. It’s all based on the Government’s power of taxation. And with the Big Beautiful Bill, the tax was made zero. So, now, in the big beautiful lawsuit, the argument is: if you’re not collecting a tax, then your jurisdiction for this, your power of taxation, doesn’t exist anymore. The law is no longer valid because it’s no longer a tax, and therefore no jurisdiction.

Evan Nappen 29:44

Well, that third power, interstate commerce, that’s where you see the greatest amount of federal government abuse and overreach that ever existed. You can trace that back to the Wickard versus Filburn case. (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/317/111/) This case had to do with a farmer growing his own food during FDR’s administration. The farmer was growing his own food for himself and for his own livestock. He didn’t sell a grain of it anywhere. And the government said, “You can’t do that. We regulate what farmers can and can’t grow.” And the farmer said, “Hey, man, this is my farm. It’s for me. It’s not for anyone else. I have a right to do it. And the court said, “Oh, well, the fact that you grow your own and don’t sell it or distribute it affects interstate commerce. Affects it. And man, that opened the door. Because then anything that affects interstate commerce, anything that has traveled in interstate commerce, anything. Broad, broad, broad. This explosion in federal power. Page – 9 – of 11

Evan Nappen 31:00

Thomas, obviously and correctly, sees that this is nuts, and wants to pull it back. And now we have a case in the Fifth Circuit, “United States versus Squire”. Again, en banc, full court, where there was a total remand back, in which the consideration is now going to be a challenge as to whether interstate commerce, whether that power, can affect simply, as in Squire’s case, which involved a felon. A convicted felon, a bad guy. Someone who, you know, is not a nice person, as our president would say. Not a nice person. However, the gun that was found in, I think it was Louisiana, the gun that was found at this guy’s place was not used in a crime. Was not used in a murder. You know, was not the element was not evidence of any offense of that.

Evan Nappen 32:14

But he was charged with being a felon in possession of a firearm. The question is, is a gun that merely at some point had traveled through interstate commerce, but was no longer, you know, in interstate commerce at all. It was no longer. Just in this guy’s place, sitting in a state in in Louisiana. Does the federal government’s power of interstate commerce still apply to that, so that they can enforce a federal gun law stopping felons from possessing a gun, or is that an overreach? And this case, my friends, has the potential to remove the very foundation of federal gun laws based on interstate commerce. It is extremely, extremely important. Even the dissent recognizes that this is the case. As a matter of fact, the dissent in the Squire’s case said the court has “welcomed the possibility of finding that Congress’s Commerce Clause authority cannot support 922(g).” That’s the felon in possession prohibition. “Such a decision”, he (Judge Stephen Higginson) said, “would have massive import for federal law.” That’s right. You’re damn right it will. You’re damn right it will. And that’s what they’re afraid of. This is why the Squire case can be absolutely game-changing like no other. So, we will keep a close eye on that.

Teddy Nappen 34:14

I would kind of combine that with just, from the political landscape where you see. I don’t know if you saw the Democrat Socialists. They put out that stupid manifesto where they were talking about eliminating the Senate, expanding Congress. They appoint the president. You don’t elect the president. They appoint and just abolishing our system.

Evan Nappen 34:37

Oh yeah, they’re basically turning us into a dictatorship, a communist dictatorship.

Teddy Nappen 34:44

I feel like that would be the ultimate check on their power. If we could really, really, truly curtail the commerce clause to not allow that much power.

Evan Nappen 34:56

Oh yeah, we need to. Yeah, this is all about pulling back the federal government in its overreach. And yet something like national reciprocity, where we’re dealing with a Constitutional right and actually traveling interstate. Well, now we do have interstate commerce going on. We have crossing state lines. We have something that is so plainly a federal issue that falls under it. Whereas, when you start making an inanimate object that at some point just crossed the state line and ends up in somebody’s home. Page – 10 – of 11

They’re not traveling with it. They’re not moving with it. They’re just saying, “Hey, you know, even though it was purchased or acquired in Louisiana, but at some point it had to get to a dealer, you know, and made it to the. I mean, this is so far down the line of having any connection to it.

Evan Nappen 35:55

And as Thomas points out, it basically removes the state police power, which is a power that should be reserved to the state. So, this is going to be a fascinating argument to follow, and the threat of communism through the Democrat Socialists. I mean, you know, look at what we’re looking at today, Teddy. When was the last time we saw that, you know, Democrat Socialists? You know, they want national socialism, and they combine it with Jew hate. Gee, those folks used to walk funny. I think, right? Remember them? That’s what they’re basically mirroring right now in America.

Teddy Nappen 35:55

Well, it goes back to, Dad, you gotta look at the two biggest propagandist industries. You had higher education, which you know that’s, thank God Donald Trump cracked down on that hard. Where now they’re no longer be going to give out loans to. So you have to get a bat. You can get a bachelor degree in feminist basket weaving, and that’ll cut out a lot.

Evan Nappen 35:55

Right, that’s a great move, too. You’re right.

Teddy Nappen 35:58

And number two is Hollywood and entertainment, where they also push the socialist movement. That I think, particularly with AI and other and independent projects, are rising above and breaking the stranglehold of Hollywood. At the point now, they’re trying to fund Jersey, where Netflix is building, and you got Paramount and the others are funding it. Trying to turn into the New East Hollywood. But the main thing is McCarthy wasn’t wrong. He went overzealous, yes, but just the levels of it. There were communists in our in the in our works of the government, and here is the fruits of their labor.

Evan Nappen 35:58

Well, not only that, you know, during McCarthy’s day, they tried to stay hidden. Now, they’re open about it. They’re open.

Teddy Nappen 36:37

They’re proud of it. They’re bragging. They’re proud of it.

Teddy Nappen 37:54

They’re wearing it. They’re bragging about it. And this is a complete antithesis to what America is all about, and nowhere ever has communism worked. Look, you know, when that wall came down in Germany, where do you think they wanted to go? You know, you don’t see people escaping. “Escaping” to communism. It’s the reverse. And once you get communism, once you elect it in, you end up having to shoot your way out. So, you know, I don’t think the overwhelming majority of Americans are that foolish. But here’s the problem. The majority of Democrats are because statistically they’re apparently in favor of socialism, which is just, you know, a euphemistic label for communism. Page – 11 – of 11

Teddy Nappen 38:54

Here’s the issue, though, Dad. It’s my generation, the next, where I think the number was like 58% are seen in favor of socialism. That’s that generation. So, you this time period will be fine. But the next generation, that’ll be where like it’s something. This is where we need to do heavy, heavy arms of propaganda. And look, the easiest way to dispel this argument – name me one country where socialism works. Tell me that. They immediately try to say the Nordic country, and then I say, okay. First of all, here’s a deal for you. We’ll completely deregulate oil, just like the Nordic countries. Our immigration policy is about around 3% and reduce the migrant population to about the size of any Nordic country. And then finally to end it all, make sure people have healthy, maintain themselves healthily, and actually watch what they’re actually eating and going into developing healthier habits, like a lot of the Nordic countries. Then get back to me on socialism. Other than that, none of that works. We are a heavily diverse nation. We have a lot of unhealthy issues. So, when I hear it, it’s just B.S., every single time. There is no. They move the goalposts and say there’s never been any true. It hasn’t worked yet because it’s not. It hasn’t been the right version.

Evan Nappen 40:18

Yeah, right. Well, I don’t want to be part of that experiment. Thank you. Okay, no thanks. No, thank you. I’ll stick with our Founding Fathers. I’ll stick with the incredible quality of life that capitalism has given us. And there’s a reason why so many people want to come here. There’s a really good reason for it, and it ain’t communism. That’s for sure. Hey, the other thing. This. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Teddy Nappen 40:43

No, I was gonna say. Here’s the other one. Name me once did communism ever allow for someone to take a loan to get a business started? Name me one faction of that, where someone who came from essentially the small folk being able to rise up and become millionaires and running their own businesses. Yeah, exactly.

Evan Nappen 41:07

Maybe recently you heard, I just heard President Trump talking about it, and he summed it up pretty well. He said, “Communism is shit.” That’s exactly what the President said, and then he goes. His wife gets upset when he uses that word, and Reverend Falwell even wrote him once and said to him, you know, we’d prefer if he would try not to use profanity. And then Trump said he told him, the problem is that’s the word that perfectly describes communism. So, I guess if there’s any time to use the word, that’s the time to use the word. So, there you go.

Evan Nappen 41:49

Hey, this is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 42:03

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E300_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 299-AG Attacks Gun ShowsAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 13

Gun Lawyer — Episode 299 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun Lawyer, Second Amendment, Jimmy Stewart, Lee Marvin, Charles Bronson, Ghost Guns, Pennsylvania gun show, Civil Complaint, New Jersey gun laws, Second Amendment Section, DOJ, Gun Control, Red Flag Laws, Gun Owner Faux Pas.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

and I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, I think you have a very interesting news bit to tell us about, and I have some very interesting thoughts about it. Go right ahead.

Teddy Nappen 00:36

Well, first I want to say, Dad, if you’re just scrolling through, I love the random trailers that just pop up. Apparently, they’re making a Jimmy Stewart biopic.

Evan Nappen 00:48

Well, Jimmy Stewart was a great man.

Teddy Nappen 00:50

But here’s the deal. They’re focusing on his military career, where he was a combat pilot.

Evan Nappen 00:56

He was a hero. He was a bona fide hero, and he served his country tremendously. I have nothing but respect for Jimmy Stewart.

Teddy Nappen 01:12

I was pulling it up. He flew 20 missions in Europe, and he reached the rank of Colonel. He was a World War Two pilot commander, combat pilot.

Evan Nappen 01:22

And this was in the middle of his movie career. He left. Page – 2 – of 13

Evan Nappen 01:26

He left his movie career to fight for America. Let that sink in. I mean, do you think these selfish movie stars, self-centered, would even think of doing that? Even think of doing that today? Please. At least not the overwhelming majority. Maybe there’d be a few that are out there that actually would consider such a thing. But good grief. Talk about old Hollywood and new Hollywood. Jeez.

Teddy Nappen 01:26

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 01:57

I will say. I would have. This is no dig against Jimmy Stewart because it’s one of those I would have wanted if they’re gonna do any of the actors that served. I would love for them to do Lee Marvin. His whole story.

Evan Nappen 02:10

Oh, Lee Marvin was great, too.

Teddy Nappen 02:13

Where he has the craziest career, too. He was a scout sniper, 21 amphibious assaults, horribly injured and shot up.

Evan Nappen 02:23

Yeah, they could just do a series, like a mini series of actors who were the real deal. That played tough guys, but were actually the real deal. You know, Charles Bronson was. You had the guy, Christopher Lee. Holy crap, Christopher!

Teddy Nappen 02:44

Oh yeah, Christopher Lee. He was Wiki page.

Evan Nappen 02:51

I mean, Christopher Lee was advising on the movie and saying that’s not how a knife sounds when you jam it into somebody. You don’t have the sound right on that. That’s not how it goes. It’s not what the sound the person makes. It’s not the sound the knife makes. I mean, that’s some pretty detailed knowledge right there.

Teddy Nappen 03:07

If you’re ever bored, just click on the random page on his bio, and it gets crazier and crazier. Like, witness the last guillotining.

Evan Nappen 03:18

I know. The guy’s amazing. Yeah, and of course, there’s always Audie Murphy, of course.

Teddy Nappen 03:25

Yeah, of course. Page – 3 – of 13

Evan Nappen 03:26

Audie Murphy played himself in “To Hell and Back”. Audie Murphy is amazing, and he would be like one of the last guys if you looked at him to think that he’s one of the most decorated soldiers of the war. But he was also amazing, and you know, he made lots of other movies, too. Even though he’s most famous for “To Hell and Back”, but he did a lot of westerns and other things.

Teddy Nappen 03:52

I remember one of the underrated ones. I think it was like “The Duel at Silver Creek”. There’s moments where he’s actually like, he plays an anti-hero type where he’s like.

Evan Nappen 04:03

Yeah, a bastard, frankly. A son of a bitch.

Teddy Nappen 04:05

He plays like a.

Evan Nappen 04:06

Yeah he’s good.

Teddy Nappen 04:07

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 04:08

Not what you think of Audie Murphy.

Teddy Nappen 04:09

Right. He plays like the tough guy. It is very interesting that character but.

Evan Nappen 04:14

Yeah, yeah. And then he ended up dying in a plane crash because the pilot shouldn’t have been flying apparently, and you know, it’s a shame that we lost him. But yeah, he was great, and I mean he came from really, really humble beginnings. I mean dirt poor, crazy beginnings there for him. We’ve many of the great Hollywood actors who served their country really admirably. I mean even Scotty (James Montgomery Doohan), you know, from Star Trek. He was also a defender.

Teddy Nappen 04:17

What was he in?

Evan Nappen 05:03

Oh, he was military. I don’t remember exactly his background, but he was in some tough situations. He was known.

Teddy Nappen 05:08 Page – 4 – of 13

Well, he was miracle worker.

Evan Nappen 05:10

There’s so many of those guys, and I have a hard time trying to think of any modern actor that can maybe give that credibility to. I don’t know. Can’t think of any at all.

Teddy Nappen 05:24

Unfortunately, I’m drawing a heavy blank because. Oh wait, no, no, no. Adam Driver. Adam Driver. I believe he’s the guy that played Kylo Ren. He did. I believe he was in the Marines. But he was a veteran. So, but anyways, one thing I will say as we were reviewing these stories, I love how the Attorney General has their own YouTube and they were just like streaming alerts and announcements. “Attorney General Davenport Files Civil Complaint Against Pennsylvania Gun Show Owner for Endangering Public Safety” (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-davenport-files-civil-complaint-against-pennsylvania-gun-show-owner-for-endangering-public-safety/) So, that was what came up with the ad for Jimmy Stewart, and then there was this.

Evan Nappen 06:08

Right. Showing a pretty good contrast. So, Davenport has filed this complaint against the Pennsylvania gun show owner for “endangering public safety”. They filed because they’re abusing the civil lawsuit. You know, this is one of the anti-Second Amendment ploys of trying to litigate the Second Amendment out of existence. And so, what they’ve done here is they’ve gone after Jordan Vinroe of JSD Supply and Eagle Shows. So, if any of you have ever gone to the great Pennsylvania gun shows, you know, they’re really good. Because first of all there aren’t any gun shows of any kind, really, in New Jersey. There’s some militaria shows, but there’s no gun shows. But Pennsylvania is, if you’re in New Jersey and you want to hit a really great normal type gun show, you go to Pennsylvania. And some of the largest, best shows are put on by this promoter.

Teddy Nappen 07:24

The one that comes to mind, the Bloomsburg gun show. I think that was one we had gone to.

Teddy Nappen 07:29

Yeah, Eastern Gun X. Eastern Gun X.

Evan Nappen 07:29

Well, they have a whole series of shows. I believe they actually do some of the largest shows in Eastern Pennsylvania.

Evan Nappen 07:30

So, they do some of these 1000 table, 2000 table, these really huge shows. And what happened is they’re going after him, claiming he is intentionally and unlawfully selling to New Jersey residents kits and parts to make ghost guns. Untraceable firearms that are illegal in New Jersey. So, what is this really? This really is a pretext to go after gun shows. This isn’t really about the ghost guns. That’s just their vehicle. This is really about trying to stop gun shows. If you go after gun show promoters, this becomes the idea of civilly litigating out of, essentially out of existence. If they can do it, they’d love to Page – 5 – of 13

do it. Gun shows. So, we really have not just a violation of the Second Amendment, where what’s going on in Pennsylvania is completely lawful in Pennsylvania. Ghost guns are the pejorative term for simply a privately-made firearm. Americans have been making their own guns since before we were even officially a country. So, private firearms are not the boogeyman. But, of course, they give it the boogeyman name of “ghost guns” and then claim they’re untraceable.

Evan Nappen 09:14

Well, you know what? You tell me what firearm tracing has actually done to fight crime. Virtually nothing. It’s a lie that is perpetrated to give them a vehicle to make it look like they’re doing something about crime, which isn’t it, but more so to continue the agenda of oppression of Second Amendment rights. And here it is an attack on gun shows. That’s really what’s going on here. It’s not, you know, ghost guns, most gun. It ghost guns. Come on. First of all, anyone can build a gun with or without parts that you buy at a show anywhere. You can build a gun with pipes that you buy at Home Depot. Are we going to go after Home Depot because you can make slam bang shotguns easily, as we taught in the Philippines to do? Americans did that. You can.

Evan Nappen 10:20

You know, “American Guerrilla in the Philippines”, a famous book, movie, etc. What do you think they made? Slam bang shotguns. You take two pieces of pipe. One pipe fits in the other. On the end cap of the larger pipe, you have a nail with the point facing down the pipe. The other one slides in it like a trombone. You put a 12 gauge shell in there, and you slam it down. And bang, off it goes. It’s called a slam bang shotgun. Sometimes called four winds shotgun.

Teddy Nappen 10:55

Didn’t you?

Evan Nappen 10:58

Yeah, I mean this is, and this is even in the Frankfurt Arsenal, the famous “Black Books”. They’re very easy.

Evan Nappen 11:06

So, yeah, making a gun. They make guns in jails. They can make a gun. You can make them. So, this whole thing about privately made firearms and all is just a load of crap. Now, Jersey has banned “ghost guns” in a multiple ways. They talk about “unserialized firearms”. They talk about “manufacture of firearms”. They have different laws that address each of these things. All putting it under this category. And yet, under federal law, it’s not a problem to make your own firearm. Federal law even has regulations for if dealers get a privately made firearm, how to handle it and be able to actually lawfully sell it. They need to then take certain steps. We don’t have to get into that now. But it’s not a problem under federal law. It is a New Jersey, in this case, law that they’re attempting to use as a vehicle to bring the civil action against Pennsylvania. Something jurisdictioned in Pennsylvania, by claiming, oh well, you’re unlawfully selling to New Jersey residents.

Teddy Nappen 11:06

Poor man’s James Bond? Page – 6 – of 13

Evan Nappen 12:23

Well, I’ll tell you what. How about we take a look at marijuana sales in New Jersey? Do Pennsylvania residents come into New Jersey and ever buy marijuana? Look, marijuana is unlawful for recreational use in Pennsylvania, and it’s federally prohibited. It’s still a federal controlled, dangerous substance. So, New Jersey acts to aid and abet and facilitate one of the largest unlawful drug distributions in the country. Whereas privately made firearms are not a federal prohibition. Not a federal prohibition. Should Pennsylvania sue New Jersey because of somehow Pennsylvania residents buying weed in New Jersey being facilitated by New Jersey? I mean, this is what they’re attempting to do. And yet here, not only is it not a violation of federal law, but it is really an attack on Second Amendment rights. And let me tell you that. Go ahead., Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 13:30

I will also point out in the article. This is where the little trick is. If anyone ever listens to these people, they always do this trick where they start with a false premise when making their argument. “Ghost guns are frequently recovered at crime sites in New Jersey. Recent reports suggest that the number of ghost guns recovered in crime scenes increased eightfold between 2019 and 2022 — from 55 in 2019 to 433 in 2022.” Pause right there. I wonder. What happened around that time period where it caused people to want to have their own privately-made firearms and want to maybe 3D print and make their own? I wonder what little factor would have considered that. Secondly, all right, now show me the data of the amount of firearms recovered generally in crimes, and give me the percentage breakdown. Oh, it’s probably in the minuscule amount of percentages of firearms seized in New Jersey for crimes. Huh? I wonder. So, this isn’t that much of an epidemic, but we can’t show that, obviously. We won’t show that data. They just list off guns seized.

Evan Nappen 14:43

Teddy, we are in a new day and age because of President Trump. And one of the things that President Trump did is actually create, through the Justice Department. They actually created in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Justice Department, the Second Amendment Section. Now let me tell you what the Second Amendment Section of the Civil Rights Division of the Federal Government Department of Justice. Let me tell you right from their website. (https://www.justice.gov/crt/second-amendment-section) The Second, Fourth, and 14th Amendments, the Police Patterned or Practice Act, and Executive Order 14206 protecting the Second Amendment rights, secure the natural firearm rights of law-abiding citizens, and ensure that such rights to keep and bear arms will not be infringed. The mission of the Second Amendment Section is to ensure that law-abiding citizens may responsibly possess, carry, and use firearms. The Second Amendment Section will work diligently to investigate law enforcement agencies that engage in a pattern or practice of infringing on law-abiding citizens’ Second Amendment rights. As well as be proactive in searching for litigation opportunities to secure such rights.

Evan Nappen 16:19

The Second Amendment Section will also seek opportunities to advance a broad interpretation of the Second Amendment via statements of interest, motions to intervene, amicus briefs, and original lawsuits where applicable on behalf of Americans across the country. All attorneys within the Second Page – 7 – of 13

Amendment Section will advocate with zeal on behalf of the United States of America in furtherance of all objectives as tasked. And there, right at the website, at the Civil Rights Division, U.S. Department of Justice, the Second Amendment Section. You can go right online to that. We’ll have a link in the transcript. It says Section Information. Acting Chief Barry Arrington. “Report a civil rights violation.” So, listeners, if you see or hear or know of any civil rights violations on the Second Amendment, report them. Report them to the Federal Department of Justice.

Evan Nappen 17:28

I think this is something that the DOJ should consider going on in New Jersey. Where you actually are seeing an effort to go after gun shows, which is our freedom of association, which is our ability. You know, if you can’t buy guns, then you’re not going to be able to possess and carry something you cannot obtain. Second, ghost guns are not a violation of federal law. Third, this is talking about interstate issues. This is New Jersey and Pennsylvania. What could be more squarely within federal jurisdiction than one state going after activities in another state because the state that is going after them has laws that infringe on the Second Amendment and trying to enforce it in another jurisdiction via this mechanism of being able to abuse civil laws. So, there is potentially a solution here. And not only just about what New Jersey is doing here, but what New Jersey does across the board in so many ways of oppressing our Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 18:58

Now, this Second Amendment Section has done a number of things already. They sued California to halt the Glock ban. They sued Virginia over their unconstitutional weapons ban, assault firearm so-called ban. They sued them. They opened an investigation, by the way, into Philadelphia Police Department’s unconstitutional permit revocation process. They’ve sued Colorado for their ban on so-called assault firearms and magazines. They sued the District of Columbia for their ban, and they’ve gone after the Virgin Islands Police Department for unconstitutional practices in effective denials of permits. That’s just a sampling of what the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Justice Department is doing in the Second Amendment Section, and it’s time for New Jersey to be investigated. Because this has gone on for far too long in New Jersey. Our Second Amendment rights being trampled by New Jersey trying to do everything in its power to oppress Second Amendment rights. So, check it out, folks, and you will see that this is what happens when we say elections have consequences. Because this goes back to President Trump putting out his Executive Order, and you also have the Attorney General putting forward that they have their Second Amendment task force and setting up the Civil Rights Division. So, we can change how business is done.

Evan Nappen 20:52

Because prior to this, the Government, even the federal Government, took at best a neutral position, but normally there was no infringement that was too much as far as federal enforcement. No problem. Turned the other, you know, turned away from it. Couldn’t care less. Those are no longer the days today, and this is where a wake-up call needs to come out on our Second Amendment rights. Let me tell you. Go ahead, Teddy. Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 21:32 Page – 8 – of 13

Well, I was going to say. I was able to pull up Everytown’s research. (https://everytownresearch.org/report/gun-trafficking-crime-guns-new-jersey-data/) In 2023, New Jersey’s law enforcement seized 4,619 guns. So, going off of the data that the A.G. put out, that’s 9% of those firearms were “ghost guns”. Nine percent. It’s even less from those numbers. It is the level of insanity that these individuals pull. They’re just making a boogeyman out of something. That’s why.

Evan Nappen 22:06

They’re the boogeyman and a pretext to try to assert their agenda. It’s really what we’re talking about here. Absolutely. Well, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood where Teddy and I both shoot. We love WeShoot, and so will you. They have the top trainers for New Jersey. They have the full array from novice to advanced. They have some just great training programs. You can get your CCARE certification there. That’s what you need in order to get your New Jersey carry. They offer CCARE courses. They also offer the ability to get non-resident permits in other states. So, if you travel, you can take care of that through WeShoot. WeShoot is a great resource. It’s a resource that we’re very lucky to have. It’s harder and harder to find places to shoot, and without places to shoot, you can’t do too much with your guns. And WeShoot is there for you. Take advantage of it.

Evan Nappen 23:25

It’s a wonderful place. They’ve got a great pro shop. Great people, super nice, wonderful folks. They will bend over backwards to help you, and I’ve seen it firsthand. They’ve helped so many people to improve their skills, to learn about firearms, to learn the right way, proper way, how to be safe, how to be secure, and make sure that everything is done correctly. So that you don’t end up being a GOFU. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. That’s their website, weshootusa.com. You’ll be glad you did. Beautiful photography. They’re really first rate, and you’ll see why. They go the extra mile. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. They’re conveniently located right in Lakewood, New Jersey. Easily accessible right off the Garden State Parkway. You can do it. Go over there, and you’ll say, “Wow, why didn’t I come here sooner? That’s weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 24:44

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of Jersey Gun Law. You don’t want to be a GOFU. You need the book. It’s 120 topics, all question and answer. It’ll help guide you safely through the matrix of insanity called New Jersey gun laws, so that you can remain a law-abiding gun owner. That’s my purpose in writing it. You will see why it is the book used by lawyers, judges, State Police Firearms division, and beyond. If anybody who wants to know about New Jersey gun law, they always turn to New Jersey Gun Law by Evan Nappen. And if you want to get your copy, go to evannappen.com, EvanNappen.com. Order a copy, and you’ll have it within days. So, Teddy, what else do you have for us to discuss today? I’m going to toss the ball to you.

Teddy Nappen 25:44

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. If anyone’s been watching the news or anything or seen all the push from the Left, the thing they keep trying to go back to is they’re trying to address the mail problem. That’s their actual quote from the election groups that they do. Where they’re trying to figure out how do we. Page – 9 – of 13

Evan Nappen 26:11

Is that Post Office mail or as in what is a woman, male?

Teddy Nappen 26:16

You know. The white men, particularly, of the they have completely spurred off. One of the things that they’ve run into a foul, is you see this whole push where they try to reach issues, and they’ve gotten very, very quiet on the issue of firearms all of a sudden. Amazing, right? And even though you where you have like the James Talarico who’s still trying to tote gun control, but he’s trying to paint it off like, look, I’m for the Second Amendment. You know, I own a gun. All this.

Evan Nappen 26:52

Oh, it’s the I’m for the Second Amendment, but. It’s always the but.

Teddy Nappen 26:56

Always, but always,

Evan Nappen 26:57

But we should ban guns. I’m for the Second Amendment.

Teddy Nappen 27:01

But universal background checks, which will basically create a registry.

Evan Nappen 27:07

But we should eliminate gun shows off the face of the planet. But we should ban any gun that’s over 12 inches long and call it an assault firearm. But ban any gun under 12 inches and call it a Saturday night special. Other than that, I’m for the Second Amendment.

Teddy Nappen 27:23

Yeah, and you’ve been seeing that. Now you’ve noticed they’ve been losing a lot of ground to their “Democrat Socialists”. They’re just Marxists. If you look at the ideology of what they support, they are Marxists. Just go one to one. They are the same. They can’t dress it up any other way. So, I decided, you know what? Let’s see what’s on their page. What they actually feel about the Second Amendment. Because when it comes to Socialists now, they’ve kind of reached the they don’t know how to feel about firearms. They want to disarm the people because they believe in gun control, but they need arms for the revolution, always. So, it’s the gun owner dilemma for Socialists.

Teddy Nappen 28:06

So, I go to their web page and what do I find? (https://www.dsausa.org/blog/the_second_amendment_is_a_threat_to_us_all/) This goes back to 2018, mind you. So, now they’ve gotten very quiet. “The Second Amendment is a threat to us All.” That is the opening title, and they still have it on there. This is their reaction to the Parkland shooting. So, America touts itself as being a meritocracy, and we laugh. But on firearm policy, it is truly need blind. No matter your age, race, gender, creed, or sexual orientation, your inalienable right to life is perfectly alienable to Page – 10 – of 13

keep guns pouring into public and private lives. Okay. Which is why we think the only way to guarantee that we dramatically reduce the acts of violence involving guns is removing guns from society. Pause. Logical fallacy alert, everybody! Ding, ding, ding, ding. Logical fallacy. Reverse Nirvana. If we got rid of all the guns, that would stop the crime. They always try to push that, and we have the oomph. Okay, yeah. Repeal the Second Amendment. That’s going to happen. This is from 2018. Nope, still haven’t done it. But they point to, I don’t know if you remember this guy Carl Rove?

Evan Nappen 29:37

Oh yeah, Carl Rove, the pool shooter. Shooting at the pool? Yeah, yeah. After he’s anti-gun, but he uses a gun inappropriately even. Yeah, that guy, Mr. Hypocrite.

Teddy Nappen 29:49

Well, they highlight his quote. The only way to guarantee that we drastically reduce acts of violence involving guns is to basically remove them from society. Well, okay then. Then they go through this whole twisted history where they point to the 1970s. NRA stopped being enthusiast group and became a defense industry lobby. Then the new blood came with the Gun Control Act of ’68, which aimed to restrict firearm ownership in response to the fears of the group. I love how they say this. The fears of the Black Panthers. Yes, that’s why the ’68 Gun Control Act was born. That was the only reason. They wanted to disarm the Black Panthers. No other reason of why they tried to push the ’68 Gun Control Act. Dad, do you remember that? What would you say from your view of what was the driver to the ’68 Gun Control Act?

Evan Nappen 30:47

Oh my God! You know these people are just amazing, and as you see, they’re conflicted over their own platform. It’s crazy, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 31:02

Yeah, and well, they go even crazier. They go through this twisted history of rights. They go through Heller, basically determining you know the rights infringed, and they use Scalia’s answer. In Scalia’s admission, if we repeal the Second Amendment, private citizens could still own guns. The right to do so is granted to them by God or the English, whatever you’d like. Both Brett Stevens and Carl Rover certainly wouldn’t mind. So therefore, we’ve rewritten the Second Amendment. They wrote an amendment. They actually wrote. They wrote their example, the 28th Amendment, Dad. Here we go. The 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that they pushed for. The second article, the amendment of the Constitution of the United States, is hereby repealed. Okay, that gets to that. Two – manufacturing, transportation, importation into or out of any state, territory, or possession of United States delivery therein of a pump action, semi-automatic or automatic firearms is hereby prohibited. Three – article shall be inoperative unless it shall be ratified as the amendment to the Constitution by convention of several states, as provided by the Constitution within 10 years, the date of submission here off to the state by Congress. Well, they want a con con apparently. But just going back to that, banning pump action, semi-automatic and automatic firearms, removing that from the Second Amendment, Dad.

Evan Nappen 32:33 Page – 11 – of 13

Okay.

Teddy Nappen 32:34

You can have your gun, but they must be manually loaded.

Evan Nappen 32:36

Couple things. Number one, the Second Amendment is not our rights. It’s a guarantee of our rights. The rights to exist, whether or not we have a Second Amendment. But the Second Amendment is a guarantee against the Government of infringing on those rights. So, what they’re saying is, we want to revoke the guarantee of your rights and replace it with a lame-ass guarantee that we’re rewriting that won’t do anything except give us the opportunity to walk all over your rights. So, that’s really what they’re saying. But the really interesting thing here is this proposal to repeal the Second Amendment is all the anti-Second Amendment gun rights suppressor folks are going to have left.

Evan Nappen 33:23

We are on the path with the Second Amendment having been empowered by Heller, McDonald, and Bruen. And now we have Viramontes and Grant that, in my opinion, are going to absolutely crush assault firearm semi-automatic bans across the country. They are losing ground left and right. There are over 3,000 filed legal actions challenging gun laws. They are on the run. They’re losing, and they know it. The only thing they have left is actually what they’re asking for here, and that is to repeal the Second Amendment. We will never let them repeal the guarantee of our rights, and that’s what we must insist upon. These are our rights, and they’re guaranteed. We want that guarantee enforced. And now that they see the guarantee is finally being enforced, they cannot stand it. They are losing, and they’re going to continue to lose.

Teddy Nappen 34:31

I will say, I love the ending to the article where the individual. We are aware non-white and marginalized groups whose rights are routinely violated by the police may view this both as restricting and their ability to protect themselves or causing unwarranted searches and harassments for the criminal justice. We in no way support any measure that would increase the scope and scale of police violence. This provision outlined in amendment would have universal application. So, in other words, don’t worry. This affects everybody. There’s going to be no racial discrimination about enforcing these laws, Dad. Huh? Right. Cut to what was it? John Petrolino’s article where he pulled the data?

Evan Nappen 35:19

Yeah. Exactly what we’re dealing with in New Jersey. Where blacks are already more than two to one discriminated against in just permit issuance. So, yeah, we know where this is. It’s just absurd.

Teddy Nappen 35:31

Well, they literally go with the “trust me, bro”. It’ll be we’re not racist. We’re just gonna ruin it. We’re gonna screw it over for everybody.

Evan Nappen 35:38 Page – 12 – of 13

But keep in mind, this is laughable right now, but it’s actually not. This is going to be the push that we’re going to see. It’s going to be a major push to repeal the Second Amendment. Because it’s all they have left, and that’s what we’re going to see. That and abusing the tort system in any way they can – civil actions. You know, to somehow create these abilities for trying to litigate guns out of existence. That and repealing the Second Amendment. That’s what they’re left with on their game plan. We just need to remain vigilant.

Teddy Nappen 36:16

So, bear in mind. I will say, bear in mind, they still push for red flag in the other articles they’ve had. They still push for all the required measures where you have to get everything registered, and they’re still for limiting, removing ARs and anything they deem unsafe or scary.

Evan Nappen 36:39

I hear you, and this is so typical. But we’re winning. That’s what’s important. We’re winning. Except when there’s GOFUs. GOFUs, as you know, are Gun Owner Fuck Ups. That’s where gun owners make big mistakes that cost them, technically, it could cost them their career, their family, their fortunes, their freedom. It’s bad news. So, you want to not be a GOFU. And what we like to do here is talk about GOFUs so that you don’t become one. You get to learn for free what others have paid dearly for. Teddy, what do you think the GOFU is this week? You know. What are we talking about?

Teddy Nappen 37:26

Well, for me, the GOFUs are always about “stop talking to the police”.

Evan Nappen 37:34

Oh my G-d. Stop talking to the police! Like, you know, we talk about basics. It is so basic. Shut up. You know you have a right to remain silent. Now, whether or not you have the ability to, I guess, becomes another question. But you have the right, and you need to stand on your right. You need to ask for your attorney and remain silent. You need to stand on your rights. And over and over again, we see clients that blow that and end up making their situation incredibly worse, incredibly worse. Because not only does anything you say can and will be used against you. Anything you say will be twisted against you. The safest, best route every time is standing on your rights. It’s that simple. And let me tell you, folks, if you’re ever read Miranda rights, oh my God, shut the f up! If you are read Miranda rights, sirens should be going off. Fireworks should be shooting. Flags should be waved. Shut up! Anyone who talks after Miranda, I just can’t even understand. They’re warning you. They’re telling you. Oh, you just wave your right. Oh, you’ll just talk to them. What are those silly rights they’re telling me about

Evan Nappen 39:04

I’ll tell you one of the problems is – television. Television has conditioned many Americans to giving up their rights. Oh, I’ll just talk to them. I’ll just explain it. I’ll just yak away. And you know what? You end up burying yourself. Over and over and over again. I see it. I cannot believe it. If you are ever across one of those metal tables, being interrogated by police, and you’re talking, you are the world’s biggest GOFU. That should never happen. If you’ve been read Miranda, that talking across that table that should not be happening. If you let that happen, you’re a fool. You are absolutely a fool. I can’t make it any clearer. Page – 13 – of 13

Evan Nappen 39:55

It reminds me of Jan Davis. I don’t know if you know about her. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/parachutist-plunges-to-death/) She was part of a movement to allow the ability to try to legalize base jumping at national parks. At Yosemite, she jumped off of El Capitan. Now, she was a pretty experienced jumper, and she did this as a protest. She was wearing criminal stripes outfit. You know the classic black and white stripes of the classic prison outfit, right? And it was to make a statement, of course. But it’s really a statement here because she jumped off El Capitan, El Capitan, and it was in 1999 as a protest against the ban. She was trying to make a statement that this is safe and should be allowed. She jumped, and ended up going splat. That’s right. Her parachute didn’t open. She couldn’t get it opened, unfortunately. My understanding is she had used some other equipment instead of her own. She didn’t know where the pull was on this particular one, and unfortunately, she ended up just going splat.

Evan Nappen 40:19

To me, Jan Davis jumping off El Capitan there is what happens when you are read Miranda and talk. You ended up in a big splat like Jan Davis. That’s what you do. And keep in mind, she was wearing that prisoner outfit when it happened. So, folks, stand on your rights. Don’t be a good a GOFU. Don’t end up splattering yourself on the gun rights oppression and insane matrix of New Jersey gun laws. Should you ever be put in that situation – shut up!

Evan Nappen 42:09

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 42:23

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E299_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 298-NJ Assaulting Our Rights… AgainAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 11

Gun Lawyer Transcript – Episode 298

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey gun laws, assault firearm ban, Supreme Court, Vera Montes, Grant cases, Assembly Bill 442, semi-automatic rifles, detachable magazine, draconian penalties, property rights, gun rights, sensitive places, reparations, We Shoot USA, gun owner mistakes.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

This is Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:20

and I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:23

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, New Jersey is at it again. What, Teddy? Go ahead. What we gonna say, buddy?

Teddy Nappen 00:31

Well, I was gonna say, you wouldn’t believe the stuff that they’re trying to cycle through on social media. They’re trying to now push the whole, “you’re afraid we’re going to take your guns away, and we’re afraid you’re going to take our children away. Which one is unfounded? Like it’s.

Evan Nappen 00:53

Yeah! Which one’s unfounded, yeah. Well, being that the anties never give up, those that want to crush our rights and oppress us. New Jersey, of course, always has to lead the way on doing that. And so now, as we discussed last show, we’re all very excited at the Viramontes and Grant cases that are combined and have been granted certiorari by the U.S. Supreme Court. This means they’re finally going to get a decision out of the Supreme Court determining the constitutionality of so-called “assault weapon” ban. But what is New Jersey’s response when these things happen? They’re like the Iranians. When New Jersey makes their gun oppression policy, they act like the Iranians. They double down on threats. They double down on trying to convince us that they are just going to make life miserable for us, and they do it various ways.

Evan Nappen 02:13

Their current response is essentially an assault firearm law radical enhancement. That’s right. So, here we realize that the entire concept of banning semi-automatic firearms is, my money is solidly on that is going up in flames. As we talked about before, this is finally, I believe, on the road to destruction. This whole political fight that has harmed so many good people. Ruined law-abiding citizens’ lives. Taken Page – 2 – of 11

their destroyed families’ fortunes, and taken away freedom and rights. This nightmare, I believe, is going to end. But it’s actually even more excitement over when that end might take place, that we’ll talk about in a little bit. In between, leave it to New Jersey to propose even more, even worse, even more draconian laws, particularly on the dreaded, intrinsically evil “assault firearms”. That’s right, New Jersey calls them “assault firearms”. Sometimes they’re called, in other jurisdictions, in federal law, “assault weapons”.

Teddy Nappen 03:46

It’s a hoplosexual term.

Evan Nappen 03:49

Yeah, you’re right. It’s a term that’s just concocted, so that they can make up lists of guns to ban and to make as far-reaching a ban to turn as many law-abiding citizens into criminals as they possibly can. So, New Jersey filed a new bill. It is Assembly Bill 442 . (https://pub.njleg.state.nj.us/Bills/2026/A0500/442_I1.PDF) This is New Jersey’s incredible doubling down on their assault firearm law, and I wanted to just go through with you. This law, because whether it’ll pass or not, who knows? Even if it does pass, this stuff I believe is going down in flames and will no longer be anything they can pass laws about. Dead. Gone. Done.

Evan Nappen 04:50

Sort of like what happens when you enrage a bull elephant. You know, African elephants and Indian elephants are different. African elephants are extremely ornery, mean, tough. Republicans, you know, picked the elephant as their symbol. Sometimes I think about when we get the good elephant, when we get the African version of the elephant, and they actually do what’s needed. I think we’re going to see that here through the judicial system, which now has plenty of great judges, thanks to President Trump appointing conservative judges. The bull elephants of Africa, they do not just kill you. They eliminate you! They crush you and crush you and crush you until there’s nothing left. You can’t even be picked up with a stick and a spoon. That’s how much they disintegrate when they are riled up and attacking. I suspect that we are going to see the African bull elephant happen to this entire agenda of “assault firearm bans”.

Evan Nappen 06:10

But until then, let’s look at what they want to do. Because if it doesn’t go that way, if it’s somehow upheld that these things can be prohibited and banned, and our rights can be walked upon in this manner, here’s what New Jersey is doing to the current “assault firearm” definition. Let’s actually look at what they’re saying. So, of course, we have the current law that we’re all familiar with. It has a list of 67 guns, and then they say “substantially identical” and that had never been effectively defined. We had case law that said “substantially identical” means the 1994 Crime Bill definition, which was amazing, since that was four years after New Jersey passed their law. How our legislators knew that an unconstitutional law would be saved by a federal law that was passed four years later, I don’t know. Somehow the court put that forward. We’ve lived under that for now. Page – 3 – of 11

Evan Nappen 07:08

But what they’re doing is they are now going to incorporate and define the specificity in the statute, the term substantially identical. By claiming that any of these above guns and platforms, you know, the 67 intrinsically evil semi-automatic firearms on that list, will now include under the term of “substantially identical” a semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. That’s step one. Any semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following features. So, currently we have a two feature requirement. This is now any one of these features, and your semi-automatic firearm that takes a detachable magazine becomes contraband. Becomes banned. Becomes unlawful for you to possess with no lawful way of possessing it. There’s no grandfathering in this bill.

Evan Nappen 08:20

If you’re caught possessing it, the penalty is so draconian it defies belief. It’s up to 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory, mandatory, minimum three and a half years in State Prison, no chance of parole. If you get convicted of possession of an assault firearm, even right now in New Jersey, no less this expanded list that we’re going to look at in a minute, we are talking about the judge having no discretion whatsoever, and having to impose at least three and a half years in State Prison. And folks, if you have an assault firearm and you’re possessing one, if you get caught with it, you’re looking at that penalty right now. Hopefully we’re going to get all this won, and I honestly believe we will. But just in case it doesn’t, or if you get nailed before that happens, you’re looking at insanity in terms of a prison sentence.

Evan Nappen 09:16

So how does this new definition with one feature? What are the single features that make a semi-automatic rifle that takes a detachable magazine intrinsically evil and must be banned at the second degree, felony level, where you’re looking at 10 years and a minimum mandatory three and a half in prison for just having any one of the following features? Number one, a folding or telescoping stock. Wow, you know how important a folding or telescoping stock is when it comes to fighting crime. I mean, a telescoping stock that moves one or two inches back or forth. I mean, that’s like an entire crime wave into itself, right? If you have that feature on your gun, you’re looking at the offense I just outlined.

Teddy Nappen 10:09

Wasn’t there a case, Dad. Wasn’t there a case that you had where if you had a folding stock, it was deemed an assault firearm?

Evan Nappen 10:17

Well, that’s exactly what it is. A folding stock or telescoping stock currently is, but wait.

Teddy Nappen 10:24

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 10:24

One feature, though – just one. Try another, a pistol grip. If you have any rifle semi-auto that takes a mag and it has a pistol grip, it’s contraband. It’s banned. You’re looking at draconian sentencing and Page – 4 – of 11

punishment for your possession. Even though you lawfully bought it from a dealer. Even though you had a firearms ID card and went through all the vetting, went through a NICS check. It doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter one bit. You’re going to State Prison. If it has a thumb hole stock, one feature, a thumb hole stock. That’s all it takes. It’s an assault firearm. A second hand grip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand. A second hand grip. Every rifle has a forearm that’s a second hand grip. What are you grabbing it with? Your dick? No, this is outrageous. It’s stupid. It’s a hand grip. Well, if your semi-auto rifle has a hand grip, it’s an assault firearm.

Evan Nappen 11:37

A bayonet mount. Oh my gosh, a bayonet mount. That’s because of all the drive-by bayonetings, of course. If you have a flash suppressor or a muzzle brake, if you’re just trying to tame recoil, it doesn’t matter. A muzzle compensator. A threaded barrel designed to accommodate. If you just have the threads on there. A flash suppressor, a muzzle brake, or a muzzle compensator. They want you having lots of recoil on your gun, lots of recoil. Can’t tame that recoil. They don’t want you to have any accuracy in your shooting or ability to shoot without muzzle rise. I mean, what the hell? Insanity. It doesn’t matter. A grenade launcher. Well, if you have a grenade launcher, that’s one thing. Having grenades, that’s another. And can you believe they want to prohibit us from having grenade launchers? What about all of us that go out grenade launching on the weekends? I mean, that really sucks, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Evan Nappen 12:39

Then semi-automatic shotguns. Let’s look at shotguns. A semi-automatic shotgun that has any one of the following: a folding or telescoping stock, a thumb hole stock, thumb hole stock on a shotgun? I don’t know, maybe. I guess they’re out there. Who cares if it has a thumb hole? It doesn’t matter. Thumb hole stock. Maybe some of those trap guns have some of the interesting designs that we sometimes see. Well, they’re going to be an assault firearm under this bill. A second hand grip or a protruding grip held by the non-triggering hand. A second hand grip. Well, folks, if your semi-auto shotgun, and this just says semi-auto shotgun, it doesn’t have to be mag fed, so my friends, if your Remington 1100 or you’re Remington 1187 or you’re Benelli or you’re Browning, you’re A5 or your standard good old reliable semi-auto shotgun that you inherited from your grandpa, if it has a forearm on it. Gee, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a semi-auto shotgun that doesn’t have a forearm on it, where you grip it with your hand, that shotgun becomes an “assault firearm”.

Evan Nappen 12:58

What are they doing with pistols? A semi-automatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable. magazine and has at least one of the following. So, basically every semi-automatic pistol that uses a detachable magazine, which is, oh, maybe 99% of all pistols, right? Hence, what semi-automatic pistols are, which are, except for some exceptions, a few exceptions, they’re magazine fed. I know the Keltec uses the stripper clip deal into a fixed mag. Maybe you have an old broom handle that uses a stripper clip into a fixed mag, but short of that, just about every pistol out there immediately has the ability to accept a detachable mag. And if your pistol has a folding or thumb hole stock, and of course they’ll view a pistol brace as that, because New Jersey can interpret it their own way. A thumb hole stock. A second hand grip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand. There are, of course, Page – 5 – of 11

larger revolvers, some that utilize even a form of a horizontal forearm. We’ve seen different grips that can go on other types of pistols.

Evan Nappen 14:07

So, attention all fuds. Attention all fuds who think, who cares about “assault firearms”? It doesn’t affect me. Well, guess what? All your semi-auto shotguns with forearms become assault firearms overnight, if this bill gets signed into law. A fixed magazine capacity exceeding six rounds. The ability to accept a detachable magazine. So, if you have any semi-auto shotgun that uses a detachable magazine. It doesn’t matter how many the mag hold. If it can accept a detachable mag, it’s instantly an “assault firearm”.

Teddy Nappen 16:22

Isn’t there a mod you can do for Desert Eagles?

Evan Nappen 16:24

Sure. There’s all that stuff out there. You’re right. A capacity, now, here’s this. It’s just absolutely weird. Listen to this. A capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip. So, if your pistol can hold, outside of the pistol grip, an extra magazine. It doesn’t mean that the magazine has to actually function. But if you have a handgun that has some capacity to hold an extra mag, then that’s an “assault firearm”. If your pistol has.. I don’t even.. I guess there are some..

Teddy Nappen 17:10

I think they’re referring to, you know, when you tape mags together, sometimes.

Evan Nappen 17:14

I guess. Well, I don’t even know if that’s possible on a pistol. Or if you have some type of magazine holder that is somehow attached to a gun. I don’t even know what they are referring to. Maybe the Roneys. You know, where your Glock goes in the Roney, and you can have an extra mag up there that you can just grab. I don’t know. But if it can do it. Here’s a great one. A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencers. Oh, a threaded barrel. So, now, because your pistol has a threaded barrel and you just want to have a compensator on there, or extra barrel weight. Single feature. It’s an assault firearm.

Evan Nappen 18:01

Any handgun with a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more, when the pistol is unloaded. And then thrown in, I guess, for laughs, is a semi-automatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun, or firearm. A semi-automatic version of an automatic. So, what are semi-automatic versions of full automatic firearms? Well, that’s going to now include, well, obviously your semi-auto Thompsons that are legal. They’re going to be illegal. Any semi- automatic. Then the entire class of ARs, right? That, of course, will fall under that. So, this isn’t even handguns. That’s just as a general catch-all that it’s any semi-auto. And most semi-autos are versions of what are otherwise full auto or select fire guns. Just about every semi auto rifle out there, you know. Very few that aren’t that. I mean, you may find some exceptions, but good grief. Look at the stroke of coverage. That isn’t even a feature bill, that isn’t even a feature bill. Page – 6 – of 11

Evan Nappen 19:23

Even if you have a semi-automatic rifle that used any kind of magazine. It doesn’t have to be a detachable magazine, anything, or a semi-automatic version of an automatic shotgun, rifle, or firearm. Wait a minute. Broom handles that we talked about not having a detachable mag would seem to be legal. But under this new bill, now they’re illegal, because broom handles also had a happy switch at a certain point. And a semi- automatic version of it is now going to be flat out illegal, even though it doesn’t use a detachable magazine. So, you can see how far back and how far reaching and how broad this insanity is.

Teddy Nappen 20:12

Wouldn’t it also meet the weight category? Didn’t they say, like, what is it, 50 ounces or something?

Evan Nappen 20:18

No, I think it’s under on that, but look, I’m not sure. I haven’t weighed a broom handle in a while, but hey, it could be. The bottom line, folks, is this is what they see as important to do. They see this as something that has to get done to us. To turn us all into criminals. Doubling down facing what is going to happen in the courts, and that’s where I really want to tell you. As crappy as this bill is, as insane and stupid as this bill is, the bottom line is we are positioned beautifully for the death of this insanity, finally, finally. And that’s not just because of Viramontes and Grant being decided by the U.S. Supreme Court, but our own cases that are currently in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals with the en banc panel. We’re going to see decisions coming out both on “sensitive places” and on “assault firearms”, and we’re going to see those decisions before we even see the Supreme Court rule in about a year on “assault firearms”. I believe within the next few months. Because we have a panel that appears to be one of the most respectful of the Second Amendments of any appellate circuit federal court out there, I believe we’re going to see our New Jersey suffering end sooner than even the Supreme Court’s death knell that should happen in June 2027. So, we have a lot to be positive about. The positive is this is really positioned to finally be crushed like a bull elephant smashing its prey into absolute oblivion, and I’m gonna be extremely happy when that day comes. And after that, my friends. Go ahead. What, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 22:30

Well, I’m just kind of thinking back to when you were starting off, Dad. Think to the New Jersey for the assault to the assault weapon ban, the original assault weapon ban, where that came into play, just thinking along lines of like what were the what was the arguments, and like what was the things they used as their tactics.

Evan Nappen 22:50

Well, I can tell you, folks, the history. Back in late 1989. I actually become attorney in 1988. They passed the bill that became effective in May of 1990. New Jersey’s assault firearm ban. And I remember back then we did not have the Second Amendment established by Heller and McDonald and Bruen. We did not have the test of constitutionality with the historical analog requirements, etc. We did not have any of that. We didn’t even have a court declaring that the Second Amendment was an individual right. We all knew that it was a violation then of the Second Amendment, because we all knew what the Second Amendment meant. But we didn’t have the juice. The case law didn’t exist. Page – 7 – of 11

Evan Nappen 23:48

So, our approach at the time, which was initially successful, was going at the vagueness of the statute itself, which worked in Merrill. That’s how New Jersey’s law evolved when they brought the federal case over that. But we had arguments then, and it did turn thousands and thousands of citizens into criminals. and still does to this day. Looking now, years later, 30 plus years now later, we’re finally going to see the end of it. It’s been a long time coming, but we will win this. It took a long time, but what we’ve established in getting to this point will protect freedom for generations. And that’s something I’m proud of, because I was a small part of that. All of you that have fought for our rights are all part of it, and we’re seeing history right before our eyes.

Evan Nappen 24:58

But you’ve got to know, you’ve got to understand that this law has been devastating to so many people. It has destroyed and harmed. It has caused far more harm than any firearm has actually caused in terms of the absolute destruction to law-abiding citizens. When you look at how small the numbers are for deaths and such from these particular guns, it’s minuscule compared to just how many people have suffered. And that’s why, my friends, after we get this victory, I want reparations for gun owners. That’s right. Reparations for gun owners who suffered under New Jersey’s tyrannical laws that destroyed, harmed, and took away rights. Listen, reparations here, we have real victims that are alive today, not generations ago. Alive now that have paid a price for this insanity by New Jersey, and they deserve reparations. We’ll be talking more about that after we destroy this horrible, most horrible of infringements. Calling it an infringement, actually, is almost doing it a disservice. It’s an atrocity, an atrocity passed by New Jersey. So, stay tuned. These are good times. I’m extremely cautiously optimistic for us, and you should be as well.

Evan Nappen 26:43

Hey, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, an indoor range. It’s the range where Teddy and I love to shoot. It is a fantastic resource. You will love WeShoot. Many of you already shoot there. They have great training. They have great pro shop, and they can get you equipped. They can get you everything you need, so that you can stay sharp, focused, trained, and practiced with your gun,. Because if you don’t shoot your gun, what good is it? You’ve got to keep the skill set and keep your training. Make sure you’re on it. It’s super important. WeShoot is a great resource, right there in Central Jersey, conveniently off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can go to weshootusa.com. They have a great website. We love WeShoot, and so will you. Their training is first rate. Get your CCARE certificate so that you can get your carry. You can get advanced training or basic training. You can have the most fundamental. If you have someone in your family who doesn’t know a thing about guns, they can get their start the right way at WeShoot. If you have someone, maybe even yourself, that’s really advanced and want top of the line advanced training, they can provide you with those services there, too. They’re the best. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 28:29

And while you’re at it, make sure you get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the bible of New Jersey Gun Law. It’s a book everybody uses, judges, lawyers, firearms division, you name it. It’s Page – 8 – of 11

the guidebook to help you from becoming a GOFU. You don’t want to become a GOFU and that’s one of the best ways of avoiding it. Knowing the insanity of New Jersey so you don’t get caught up in the traps that they lay for law-abiding gun owners. So, they cannot turn them into criminals, and then shout to the stupid general public to make it look like they’re doing something about crime when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it, except destroying their counter voter constituency. That’s the reality of what they’re about. So, be smart. Get a copy of my book at EvanNappen.com. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. Teddy, what else do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 29:33

As you know, Press Checks are always free, and there’s something that seems to be coming up more and more. As we know, the Left on their last legs when it comes to their attacks on our rights, particularly with the victories that we’re having, and the ones that we’re going to have in the Supreme Court, all the challenges. But I will give them credit as they get more and more creative and look for other ways to abuse. So, this goes back a year ago, and this was from Gun News Daily. This is under Platkin from the Office of New Jersey Attorney General. (https://gunnewsdaily.com/n-j-offers-free-decals-for-gun-free-zones/) They were offering free gun-free zone decals to establishments wishing to register as designated gun-free areas under the sensitive places law. So, they were actually trying to disarm you in the best way they can. Just getting a bunch of individuals who have their property, any place, storefronts, whatever, and say no. No guns allowed. Don’t defend yourself. And this brings into an issue that I find important. It is a clash of rights, where it is the argument of property rights versus our gun rights. And look, we’ve seen the abuse of property, where you have people coming on to it. You see the squatter issues, and you see many on that end. But when it comes to gun rights, which is our civil right, it’s something that I think is going to come to blows eventually, and I think this needs to be handled.

Evan Nappen 31:06

Well, particularly after the Hawaii case, where now the vampire rule is unconstitutional. We’re going to see more regarding sensitive places when the Third Circuit Appeals decision, which should come out shortly on with Koons. The Koons decision on New Jersey’s sensitive places, and I’m excited to see what the panel has to say. But you’re right, Teddy. What they’ll try to do is they’ll try to pit property rights versus gun rights, and they’ll try to still encourage private entities to put up ” gun” signs. This way the clash between property rights and gun rights has to get figured out, because yeah, we have the Hawaii case that talks about places open to the public where the federal government cannot make a law regarding that.

Evan Nappen 32:04

But a private entity still has the ability over their private property to decide who can go on it. So, they can say no shoes, no shirt, no service. They can say no animals, no whatever. There’s different things property owners, you know. But the line gets drawn over race because of civil rights. You can’t say no blacks or no Jews or no Hispanics. You can’t do that, but you can limit other things on your property. So, I believe strongly in property rights, and I also believe strongly, big surprise, in gun rights. But what happens is many times with rights there’s a clash of rights. Property rights and gun rights may have a clash here if a property owner doesn’t want guns on their property. Where do we draw the line? Does my right under the Second Amendment, my fundamental, God-given right to defend myself with the Page – 9 – of 11

most effective means, does that right that I have to do that, which is a right 100% established, no question about it. Does that right override or supersede a property owner’s property rights? And that’s where the antis will play that game. They’ll try to get property rights made superior to gun rights, but in reality, that should not be the case. It should be the opposite. Gun rights should be put on the very same plane as civil rights. It is a civil right, and I mean in the same way that you aren’t allowed to exercise racial discrimination, you also cannot discriminate against individuals that are exercising their Second Amendment right, their individual right to keep and bear arms. It belongs in the same class.

Teddy Nappen 34:09

Just to go into, like, where the test would be needed for when it, if the Supreme Court ever took a case on this. Basically it would acquire the equal protection clause to where that falls into the category of strict scrutiny, where we’re in the grouping where it’s like you cannot discriminate race, religion, creed, and gun owner, effectively, where you well kind of like.

Evan Nappen 34:31

I don’t know. I don’t know if that is a test that will be utilized or not. Because if it’s gun rights, then we have to go back to that historical analog, but when it comes to property rights and how far you can assert it, it’s somewhat of an open question. I can tell you this. Any business stupid enough to put a sign out there that no guns are allowed. So that you are effectively disarming every one of your customers. Get ready to get your ass sued off when a crime occurs in your place of business, and you disarmed the defender who could have otherwise defended themselves. You want that lawsuit? Because that’s what you’re going to get. That’s exactly what you’re going to get. So, think real hard before you put up a “no guns allowed” sign, because the “no guns allowed” sign is also saying sue me if a crime occurs here, and you couldn’t defend yourself. That’s also what that sign says, just not in writing on it.

Teddy Nappen 35:37

Was there a case where someone was forced to disarm, and they were either shot or injured because they were disarmed?

Evan Nappen 35:47

I believe there have been, but I don’t have them right at my fingertips. But I’ll tell you what. I don’t see a problem with that cause of action. I don’t see a problem because there is tort action in New Jersey called failure to provide adequate security. So, businesses have a duty to provide adequate security. If they ban someone who has a carry license from carrying a gun and protecting themselves, and they have a duty, which they do have, to provide adequate security, then I can well see an excellent civil lawsuit taking place under their duty to provide adequate security. In fact, making the premises less secure by taking away not just a permit to carry holder, but a trained permit to carry holder. And why do I say they’re trained? Because training, my friends, is part of getting your carry permit, isn’t it? In the Carry Killer law, what do they require? CCARE. You’re trained. Trained in what? Use of force. When you can and can’t shoot. Trained in what? How to shoot safely. You must pass and qualify. So, they are stopping state-qualified individuals who have a permit to carry from lawfully defending themselves, and then failing to provide adequate security to those people who they mandated disarm themselves. Good luck with that civil suit. Dumb ass business for putting that sign up. Good luck with that. Page – 10 – of 11

Teddy Nappen 37:34

I’m still waiting on New Jersey trying to force the where they require that class. I remember it was EveryTown was running those stupid classes for training them up for firearms, and it was just a long propaganda wing that they just go through all their talking points. There was barely any knowledge being taught in actually handling the firearms. I’m waiting for New Jersey to force you to take that particular course, so I guess that’d be another abuse to that as well. Who knows?

Evan Nappen 38:07

And then those will be challenged too, but the good news is we’re making tremendous progress. I believe really great things are soon on the way here, and I mean within reach. It’s going to be great. But in the meantime, we still have GOFUs taking place, Teddy. We have Gun Owner Fuck Ups. GOFUs, as you know, are expensive mistakes that clients and others have made, and I want to always advise my beloved listeners, about these GOFUs. So that you can learn for free the mistakes that others have made. One of the GOFUs that we see a lot, and I mean a lot, folks, is not knowing what’s in your handbag. Not knowing what’s in your suitcase. Not knowing what’s in your briefcase. When I say not knowing, I mean forgetting that your gun is there. You may think, why would I ever forget that my gun is there? But oh my god, we get the airport cases. We get the folks that are visiting historical places where they have screening. We get cases where people are going to amusement parks. We have all these sporting events, entertainment events, etc. And they’re bringing their backpack, or they’re using a range bag or something that they had used to go to the range or something. Where they had traveled with a gun, and forgot.

Evan Nappen 39:43

Folks, be extra careful. Just like Press Checks are free, it’s absolutely free for you to thoroughly and completely empty your purse, empty your bag, empty your suitcase, empty your briefcase, check every pocket. Make sure it’s empty, and then put in what you need. Make sure that you’re not carrying by accident a gun, a magazine, or ammunition. I’ve seen it all, and these things lead to criminal charges. Often they lead to you facing draconian penalties and losing your gun rights. Make sure that you double check any of these bags and make sure you know the places that you’re going as to whether you’re going to be security screened.

Evan Nappen 40:40

I’ve had many clients say they walked up and they saw that there was a metal detector or screening taking place, and instead of just turning around, going back to the car, because they suddenly remembered they have it, they figure, well, I’ll just tell them about it. I’ll just be honest and say, look, I have it. What do you want me to do? GOFU. GOFU. If you do that, boom! Next thing you know, the police are involved. Don’t ever go through those security checkpoints of any type with any kind of firearm, accessory, ammo, or anything. It causes tremendous grief, and is one of the top GOFUs that we see every day.

Evan Nappen 41:33

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 11 – of 11

Speaker 3 41:44

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E298_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 297- SCOTUS Win on Assault FirearmsAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 15

Gun Lawyer — Episode 297 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court, assault weapons, Second Amendment, gun rights, New Jersey, NRA, firearm laws, Heller decision, McDonald, Bruen, reparations, gun control, concealed carry, Thomas Jefferson, gun lawyer.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 1

Speaker 1 00:11

Lawyer,

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:22

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, my friends, I have to tell you, this is just one of the greatest moments in what I would have to say in our fight to destroy gun rights suppression. It is just a banner time right now. Absolutely, a crescendo at a moment here that I’m just so excited about. Truly, truly excited, no joke. The Supreme Court of the United States has granted certiorari, meaning accepted the case, so that it means there will be an opinion, a decision, a rule made by the Court finally on so-called “assault weapons”. (https://thereload.com/supreme-court-to-decide-constitutionality-of-ar-15-bans/)

Evan Nappen 01:27

Yes, we’ve done it. We have finally gotten to where the U.S. Supreme Court is going to look at the impact of the Second Amendment on this issue. I can tell you that I’ve personally been battling and fighting in the state of New Jersey since it was first enacted in May of 1990. Looking back to those days, I remember just thinking, man, hopefully we’ll one day get the United States Supreme Court to deal with this issue. But back then there was no Heller decision. There was no Supreme Court decision that even said that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right. We didn’t even have that back then. And when the anti-gun rights crowd embarked on this brand new approach, which it was at the time.

Evan Nappen 02:38

To understand the history and where we are right now, why it just is so meaningful, you need to understand that the gun rights attack, the effort by our adversaries, to destroy our right to keep and bear arms, basically, in modern times, started after World War One. It was essentially imported here Page – 2 – of 15

from the U.K., from Great Britain. It had gotten its roots there, and it came across the pond like a cancer. It percolated to the point where by 1934 we ended up with the first National Firearms Act. Prior to ’34 but after World War One, you saw states passing state laws of what we commonly call gun control laws. And the gun control laws of those days first initiated through the ’20s, and we still have remnants of those laws still on the books, by the way, in New Jersey and other places. They were put forward by state legislatures and enacted, and those gun laws were mirrored and influenced and encouraged by what was taking place originally in Great Britain.

Evan Nappen 04:22

These laws in America at that time period, and you may find this surprising, and it’s not meant to be bashing in any way of NRA. But they were even supported and promoted by the NRA at that time. The NRA had even put forward what were called the “model firearm laws”. They put model laws together that they wanted states to pass. The NRA saw its mission then in a naive, unfortunately, you know, very naive, as certain gun laws and such, that they would support. Now, since then, that’s not their position, and they’ve learned from this naive mistake. But it led to the 1934 Act, and we’ve suffered under that this entire time. It became the first national gun rights oppression law. Even at the time in the “American Rifleman”, you could read it, and they even praised it. They said, “Ah, and this is how they viewed it. You’ve got to understand, put yourself in the time. They said, “Ah, we’ve solved the gun problem in America.” We’ve passed this great national law, and now we’ve resolved it. We’ve solved it. We’ve addressed it. It’s done. And, of course, it was far from done. But for approximately 30 plus years, that was about it for our national laws on guns being passed.

Evan Nappen 06:00

Then along comes the ’68 Gun Control Act, which built upon, to a certain degree, of course, built upon the NFA. We already had that national law and then the ’68 law. Then ’72 and then ’80s and ’90s, and etc. So that foundation got laid. And in between all this, what you mainly saw the fight as being, though, where the modern day focus, the modern day focus was handguns. I remember through the ’80s, before the invention, and that’s what it was, the invention of the “assault weapon” issue. It hadn’t been invented yet. Everything was, we only want to ban handguns. Handguns were the symbol of crime. Every news show on the major controlled networks, there weren’t any cables, you know. You just had ABC, NBC, and CBS, and you had their nightly news. And anytime they talked about crime, whether there was a gun involved or not, they always showed a handgun on the news screen anytime they talked about crime. So the propaganda was put there. Everything was about banning handguns, and the main gun rights oppression group of the day was known as Handgun Control. Handgun Control was a big group. You had players at the time like Pete Shields and others, and this is where the push was. Then along comes Josh Sugarman, who puts out his manifesto.

Teddy Nappen 07:50

Closet hoplosexual.

Evan Nappen 07:52

Right. His manifesto of the assault weapons and their accessories. And even in his manifesto, he writes that the American public will be fooled by this, because they don’t know the difference between machine guns and semi-autos. This lays the groundwork for this. And lo and behold, we have California Page – 3 – of 15

with Patrick Purdy and the massacre that occurred in that incident, and that’s all the blood they needed to dance in. Then the assault weapon laws became the biggest threat to our Second Amendment rights, and everything weirdly shifted, weirdly shifted, so that handguns, with the growth of concealed carry, which has been an amazing success for gun rights support. Handguns are not the big issue for banning, except for, of course, a modern day focus on Glocks, because they’re easily convertible, right? Except for that. You don’t see the push like you used to ban handguns.

Evan Nappen 09:00

Of course, Heller took care of that as well. Saying you can’t. It’s unconstitutional to ban handguns, too. But the push on semi-automatic rifles under the contrived created term of “assault weapon”. They took the German of Sturmgewehr, which was the true original assault weapon, a medium power round in a long arm that’s designed for urban settings. It is select fire, both full auto and semi-auto. And causing this, creating this, and putting it with that scary “assault weapon” moniker to scare the public and sell it. And it was to their credit, to a certain degree successful. It was successful in a number of states that passed state laws, including New Jersey. They passed one of the one worst, most destructive, horrible gun laws that have ruined good people. We’ll talk more about that in a little bit.

Evan Nappen 10:06

And even a federal law at one point through the 1994 bill that was a crime, which they call the Crime Bill, but I call the bill that was a crime. We had the first national assault weapon ban. That law sunset and went away in 10 years, which was 2004, and they’ve not been able to reenact another federal ban since. But that ban did end up living on, by the way, in the state of New Jersey, because New Jersey adopted the language of that to save New Jersey’s assault firearm ban from being declared unconstitutionally vague. Now that was started by a case that I did, State v. Merrill, where I had the law declared unconstitutional for vagueness because of the term “substantially identical”, which was undefined. What does “substantially identical” even mean? How can something be substantially and identical at the same time? It’s like saying almost exact. Nothing is almost exact. It’s either exact or it isn’t. And because of the vagueness of that term, it was found unconstitutional by Judge Michael Farron, Monmouth County. We knocked out the case.

Evan Nappen 11:21

That case was then brought into federal court by the gun rights groups, and that’s where the Attorney General, in order to save it, adopted the 1994 federal crime bill standard that was feature specific. We still live by that today in New Jersey, as to what makes a compliant gun or not, as to the definition of “substantially identical”. The court said, well, now that you know the definition, it’s no longer vague, and therefore it’s constitutional, which is, of course, a judicial lie, a fallacy, a falsehood. Because what that means is that somehow in 1990 our legislators passed an unconstitutionally vague law that did not have definition and somehow knew that in 1994 the federal government would pass a law that defines the undefined law in New Jersey. That’s just ridiculousness squared. But nonetheless it is law, at least as it stands in New Jersey now. We saw other states and other counties constantly push on the so-called “assault weapon” ban, a focus being on the big bad AR-15. We’ve had fight after fight. Page – 4 – of 15 Page – 5 – of 15

Evan Nappen 12:35

And as our battle for Second Amendment rights continued through the courts, we got the trifecta. We got the Heller finding of what we all knew in our hearts was true, that the Second Amendment is an individual right. We got McDonald, which said this doesn’t just apply to the federal government, it applies to all states and localities. And then we got Bruen that laid out the test of constitutionality and gave us the requirement that carry permits must be issued, must be issued. With that buildup of having the trifecta, we’ve now gotten more cases from the Supreme Court that solidify this approach. And just now, in this moment in our lifetimes, the Supreme Court has finally accepted the challenge to the bans of so-called “assault weapons”. The name of the case.

Teddy Nappen 13:36

Particularly those two cases.

Evan Nappen 13:39

Yes, Viramontes v. Cook County, and Grant versus Higgins. Now, those cases, the Cook County case is the Illinois’ local county. It’s a local assault weapon ban ordinance, just an ordinance banning. And then the other case they took was in Connecticut, which is a statewide ban. Why do that? Well, what’s great is they’re going at anywhere and everything, whether it’s local or state. The challenge is across the board, as per McDonald. It’s incorporated both local and state. So we now have a certiorari grant combining two cases, and it isn’t just limited to Connecticut and this one local county in Illinois. Their decision will reach all localities, all states, and stand in the future with our win, that I am confident we will win, to stop future federal laws on this. Here’s the actual. Go ahead, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 14:52

I will point out that this is just something the we. I always keep an eye on, like all the arguments the Left always do. I always love the ad hominem attack, where they say. Well, this is just some Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), which is they are a party to both cases. (https://saf.org/supreme-court-grants-cert-in-saf-assault-weapons-cases/) They’re the ones that brought the cases. Second Amendment Foundation was joined by the Firearms Policy Coalition. They brought the Vermont.

Evan Nappen 15:16

And second Amendment Foundation.

Teddy Nappen 15:17

And Second Amendment Foundation, along with the Connecticut Citizens Defense League. They always try to say.

Evan Nappen 15:21

Teddy, there are also individual plaintiffs that are very important, that have standing, that have gone this distance. So, this is actual people and organizations.

Teddy Nappen 15:32

Yeah, astroturf. Page – 6 – of 15

Evan Nappen 15:32

Yeah, well, astroturf, that’s a joke.

Teddy Nappen 15:36

Yeah, but that is.

Evan Nappen 15:37

I mean. Yeah. Go ahead.

Teddy Nappen 15:40

Just to take that in. Throughout history, just look at the cases throughout, like some of the major Supreme Court cases. I think it was, what was it, either.. I think it was like maybe Plessy versus there was one regular Supreme Court case where it was brought by the, the.. it was about segregation. It was the train companies, where they’re trying to make sure they didn’t have to make extra cars for separating blacks and whites. And it was brought, and they actually set it up to have the case, to get the individual arrested for the segregation. It’s not the first time you’ve had organizations, and that’s throughout all, like a vast majority of cases where you have other.

Evan Nappen 16:22

Listen, Teddy. Astroturf? Rosa Parks was a setup. Rosa Parks at the back of the bus, racial segregation. What do you think? It was engineered to make the challenge! Yeah, so don’t give me that. You want to put the issues forward and get the issues decided. Good, good. They have actual plaintiffs. They have actual people that are suffering under these laws, and they have organizations that represent vast amounts of members. It’s fine. It’s real. The assault firearm bans are real, and in New Jersey, their impact has been one of absolute destructive power. But let me just tell you what the court, just to close this, so we know exactly what they’re going to decide. Here is the question presented that they have granted certiorari on. Here it is, ready? Whether the Second and 14th Amendments guarantee the right to possess the AR-15 platform and similar semi-automatic rifles. This is great! One of the criteria that the antis are going to use, is they’re going to say, well, it has to be arms that are commonly possessed. Well, the AR-15 is the most commonly possessed rifle in America. As a matter of fact, folks, there are more AR-15s than there are Ford F150 pickup trucks! Let that sink in.

Teddy Nappen 18:08

That was the other argument I’ve been seeing from The Trace. (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/06/assault-weapons-bans-supreme-court-2a/) They just did their whole, you know, boo hoo, whining, and crying. It was from Chip Brownlee. Guess the first thing they highlight? This is the fight for the dangerous and unusual AR-15. Like that’s the common use. That’s the spin that they’re going to use. They’re trying to lay the groundwork on, is that whole idea of.

Evan Nappen 18:34

Well, you know why? They don’t have historical analogs under the Bruen test anymore, that can help them. Their analogs have had their legs cut off. The one they loved was about the Black Codes, where they banned blacks from Bowie knives and guns, or whatever. And Alito, just in the recent opinion, made it clear that’s a tainted relic. It can’t be taken seriously. So, forget it. That analog is out the Page – 7 – of 15

window. They just revealed, based on research by Stephen Halbrook, that the precedent claimed for carrying – as a matter of fact, this was even in Kuhns. One of the precedents relied upon by the court was a law that never was a law. It was simply something in some Frenchman’s book that talked about it. But the actual law was not how they’re citing it at all. Their analogs are fraught with fraud, fraught with being completely tossed in the garbage can, and they know it. When it comes to that Bruen test of history, text and tradition. In order for a law to be upheld and found not to be unconstitutional under the Second Amendment, the Government has the burden of showing the past analogs that there were other laws that were like that law that make this new law acceptable. And they don’t have that. They do not have it. So, they’re falling back, Teddy, to it’s not common use. Well, that’s falls flat on its face. They’re falling back on what? What’s the classic? Why don’t you tell us? What’s the classic when all else fails for them to cry about?

Teddy Nappen 20:34

Blood In The Streets. That’s Blood In The Streets. They always cite two BITS. We have to consider the gun violence when considering this. All that goes right to Brown.

Evan Nappen 20:43

Public policy. They always go back to the public policy arguments, public policy, and guess what? That doesn’t cut it! That doesn’t justify infringement of the Second Amendment. That argument is dead in the water. It’s not the test. It’s not a balancing test. Balancing tests aren’t allowed. Done, dead, gone. You can’t balance public policy. Can’t do it anymore. They know they’re going to be crushed, and I cannot wait for that day. I cannot wait till, at the latest, it’ll be next June. We’re going to have a decision that removes finally. I know it in my bones. Gets rid of, ends this travesty called the “assault weapon” ban. Let me tell you something. These laws have destroyed good people. These laws have created more harm than they claim the firearms themselves have created, especially in states like New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:00

It isn’t just that an individual can’t have that gun or this gun. It’s the aggressive insanity of enforcement destroying people’s lives. If you get convicted of possession of an “assault firearm” in New Jersey, right? An AR-15 that has a bayonet mount on it and a pistol grip. You are now guilty of possession of an “assault firearm” because of a bayonet mount. You’re looking at 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory three and a half years. No chance of parole. Three and a half years – minimum mandatory, folks. No way around it. No way. If you’re convicted of that, the judge has zero discretion. You can be Mother Teresa, and you’ll have to get three and a half years minimum mandatory in State Prison because you had a gun that had a bayonet mount and a pistol grip. You can only have one offending feature, and the pistol grip is one offending feature, right out of the box. And you had two because your other one was a bayonet mount. You know how important bayonet mounts are to crime. I mean, come on. What about all the drive-by bayonetings we have to take care of here, right? Folks, that’s how they..

Teddy Nappen 22:00

I think you also. Just looking at the future, because from the facts of where everything’s lined up, yeah, we’re going to win. And just seeing that right now, the way things lay out, I look to. Page – 8 – of 15

Evan Nappen 23:45

Well, we don’t want to be overconfident, but we.

Teddy Nappen 23:48

I understand. Fine, cautiously optimistic.

Evan Nappen 23:52

But I am cautiously optimistic. I am incredibly cautiously optimistic with an emphasis on optimistic.

Teddy Nappen 23:59

I always look to what is left of their, what would be the next step, then on there on the gun right suppressionist? Because the only thing I could think of is they’re just going to try to put.

Evan Nappen 24:09

Wait, wait, wait. Hold that thought for a minute. I just want to finish about the other destruction that has occurred. Like I said, it’s not just that you get arrested and you’re charged with assault firearm. Then you’re thrown in the Gulag, and they want to hold you until your trial. You’re going to spend at least a week, even if your lawyer can get you out before your trial. You have that fight. Then they use it as a licensing disqualifier. If you had an assault firearm, you’re banned from ever having guns again. It doesn’t matter. It’s an assault firearm. On top of that, they have made assault firearm possession not releasable under the Gulag. Remember, we’ve talked about this. It becomes a criteria where there’s a presumption for you to be held in jail. Presumption in favor all over this nonsense. So, you see it’s far-reaching, and what happens when someone inadvertently gets involved in this? Your life gets destroyed. You lose your career. You lose your family. You can lose your freedom. You lose your gun rights, and it’s devastating to people. And then there are those that are doing hard time because they are otherwise lawful possessors. It doesn’t matter. They’re doing the time, having their life destroyed, and having been turned into felons.

Evan Nappen 25:40

So, let me just say this. After this decision is a tremendous win for our gun rights and for civil rights, because it’s in the same category as the First Amendment, folks. It’s in the same category as a fundamental right under the Bill of Rights. What I want to see after that decision is reparations to gun owners. That’s right. Reparations to gun owners. You know, they talk on the other side about reparations for slavery to generations later that were never slaves, and they want reparations. Here we will have reparations to individuals who are still alive and have suffered. To anybody that had to give up one of their guns that never should have had to. To those that went into the Gulag and suffered that never should have. To those who have done State Prison sentences that never should have. To those who have lost their gun rights, who have had their families, their lives, their freedom, and their fortunes, all destroyed. Reparations to them. Wait till after this decision comes down. Then we push for reparations. We don’t let it end. Oh, sure. Is that difficult? Will it be hard? Yeah, but it’s no more hard, and frankly, less, way less, of an ask than those asking for reparations for slavery, where we don’t even have the victims of that alive today. Page – 9 – of 15

Teddy Nappen 27:09

It’s also very easy to quantify, because you go into just the legal fees that were brought, the time in jail. Plenty of people have sued and won on those cases. So, it’s something you can actually determine, as opposed to generational racism. It’s ridiculous, as ridiculous sounds, but to this end, where someone who had their life destroyed because of the gun control that they have pushed over the years.

Evan Nappen 27:39

That was utterly a violation of our fundamental rights and Second Amendment civil rights. It absolutely is going to lay groundwork for at least tremendous litigation, and really we should have eventually a federal reparations law requiring states to pay that ever had these laws. To compensate individuals who suffered under their tyranny. So, Teddy, you had something else to mention. I know you did.

Teddy Nappen 27:39

Yes. So, the one thing I was looking at, whenever I always look to our opponents, because I try not to think of them as being stupid. Even though they are pretty retarded on a lot of different fronts, but they always keep pushing. And I remember this term for it, of what they were described. The Left and the Marxists are line steppers. They go with the idea of what can we get away with, what can we push for, because they always go for that. It’s always just progressivism for progressive sake. Cut to trans ideology. Cut to, you know, we’re going to take your children away and then transition them. Cut to any form of the Left in its insanity.

Teddy Nappen 28:16

I always think what will be the next push, and I can see it right now. Repealing the Second Amendment will be the next step.

Evan Nappen 28:16

100 percent.

Teddy Nappen 28:36

Yes, that will. That’s the only. The only thing I can think of is what they did to Penny, what they did to all the other self-defense cases that we’ve had. Fine, you can have your firearms, but if you ever use them, we will drag you through the courts. We’ll make your life a living hell. We will make it so that people will want to murder you and come to your house and dox you. That’s the only thing at this point. That’s all they have. They are the party of violence, that is shown. You have doxing websites they run. That is the only two avenues I can see for that, and also suing the gun shops into oblivion, which we need to do something with the, I think, what is it, the PLCAA, where it’s the protection.

Evan Nappen 29:59

Yeah, PLCAA. (Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act) Right.

Teddy Nappen 30:02

We need to improve and expand PLCAA, and just say no. Stop wasting the state’s money. So, I don’t know what the test would be, but we need to. Page – 10 – of 15

Evan Nappen 30:12

Well, the fight will definitely change, and you know, the gun rights oppressors are not going to give up. But.

Teddy Nappen 30:21

Of courses not.

Evan Nappen 30:21

It will absolutely take away one of their actually most successful modern gun rights oppression tax. This will be one of. This will destroy what has actually been one of their areas of success, to be honest. They have succeeded in multiple states, and even at one point federally over this. This will destroy it, kill it, and they’re going to be knocked back on their heels very hard by it. And then we need to finish the job.

Evan Nappen 31:00

Repeal Hughes Amendment.

Evan Nappen 31:01

We need to go at reparations and make it so that when any of these governments decide to embark on rights violations, that down the road we make them pay. We just don’t kill the law. We just don’t knock it out, so that it no longer has effect. We have to make them pay for what they did to good people, and we do that through reparations.

Teddy Nappen 31:29

We should also repeal the Hughes. Amendment.

Evan Nappen 31:31

That’s going to build. Once you get this case, then, of course, the rest of NFA, any other hardware bands, all these things are going to be on the table. We will have even stronger, better case law to take it all out as the house of cards built by the gun rights oppressors collapses. Hey, and by the way, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot, and that is, of course, where we get our training. And I want to tell you that they are offering New Jersey concealed carry, so you can get your CCARE so you can get your carry permit out of Jersey. They have a new price for their CCARE. It’s incredible. It’s only $225! You can sign up at WeShoot and get their carry course, and it is great. You’ll get your PTC certification, and they really set the gold standard there at WeShoot. You’ll be able to get re-qualification, too. This is the training that police departments use. They’re also USCCA and NRA backed courses. It’s all combined. This is where you can reserve and get it done, so you can get your carry.

Evan Nappen 33:03

Particularly now where we’re knocking out “sensitive places”, as we just did with the Wolford case, which actually impacts New Jersey “sensitive places”. We’re going to see more and more availability of where we can carry, and every carry permit holder is another vote for carry. Probably by now, we are well over 100,000 carry permits in New Jersey. You know, it used to be 600. Literally just 600 carry Page – 11 – of 15

permits. Not 600,000. Six hundred. And now we’re in the 100,000 or damn close, if not over it, of permit carriers. I just showed you how their oppression law was so successful before, and after Bruen, it’s dead.

Evan Nappen 33:50

So, go to weshootusa.com. Check out We Shoot, and I know you’ll love WeShoot, too. They have great training, and not only can you get your New Jersey permit certification, your CCARE, but they also offer special training to get that for seniors, 65 or older. They have a special deal for seniors – only $185. You can get your training there. They also offer New York City non-resident carry. They are offering New York City non-resident carry. They have it at a fantastic new low price of $289, and you can get your New York City carry, which also covers New York State non-resident carry permit. They’ll do all the training, and this is really great. Anthony Zalo will be doing this course. It spans two days, and it covers firearm safety and storage, pistol ammunition basics, de-escalation techniques, federal and state law, live fire training. If you’re seeking even more certifications, they offer Maryland Wear and Carry Certification, as well as Washington, D.C. carry permits for just $150 each. On Tuesday, August 4, they will be holding their New York resident and non-resident carry courses.

Evan Nappen 35:37

WeShoot also has Civilian Shoot House Training. This is really cool. Their Civilian Shoot House Training, so you can understand how to clear rooms, move with purpose, and make decisions under pressure. This is great for homeowners and parents and security team. Anybody who’s serious about protecting their home and community, check out WeShoot’s Civilian Shoot House Training. They have that scheduled out. You can sign up for Friday, July 31st for that Training. They also have adult CPR / AED and Stop the Bleed, so that you know how to treat wounds. They’re offering that training on Monday, July 20. And for new shooters, they have great training called “From Nervous to Bullseye”. If you’re entry level, you want basic training. Here’s what you can do. They’re also offering weekend classes, and you can “Hit Your Weekend Target” with their great instructors – Grant Gallagher, Tony Zollo, and Lance Hubeny. They’re all there. Sign up at WeShoot. They are a phenomenal resource. We’re talking here about WeShoot in Lakewood. They offer USCCA and Sig Sauer Academy – “Close Quarter Defense Fundamentals. I mean, can you believe this? Just fantastic training. Make sure you check out weshootusa.com. You’ll love the range, you’ll love the pro shop, and you’ll love the people. They are the best. Go to weshootusa.com today, and take a trip down to Lakewood. They are right there in Central Jersey, conveniently off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 37:40

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of Jersey Gun Law, and you need to get your copy today. Go to EvanNappen.com and get a copy of New Jersey Gun Law. It’ll help keep you from being a GOFU. Hey, we are now celebrating, of course, the 250th Anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. This is a great moment in our history where that fantastic, earth shattering, world changing, humanity changing, document was signed and began the birth of our wonderful America, the greatest country on earth. I have nothing but reverence for our Founding Fathers and our Founding documents, and celebrate 100%. Page – 12 – of 15

Evan Nappen 38:48

Let me tell you about the author. Of course, the Committee of Five technically authored The Declaration, but the majority of the credit is given to, and I hope you know this, Thomas Jefferson. But let me tell you about how great Thomas Jefferson was. Not just because of his phenomenal presidency, his assertion of our national reputation against the Muslim pirates, the pirates of the day, standing up to them, and also the Louisiana Purchase, and so many amazing things under Jefferson. And, of course, the Declaration of Independence. But let me tell you something else about Thomas Jefferson. I want you to know, when it comes to firearms, Thomas Jefferson was one of us. He couldn’t be more one of us. Thomas Jefferson was one of the greatest gun owning founding fathers to live.

Evan Nappen 40:04

And let me read you, especially on the 250th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. The man who wrote that and made us so where we are today, we can be proud and free. Listen to some quotes from Thomas Jefferson, specifically about guns. Here’s a great quote from Thomas Jefferson. “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” Yeah, he said that. No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. That’s from Thomas Jefferson in the Virginia Constitution draft of 1776. Here’s another phenomenal quote by Thomas Jefferson. “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” Let that sink in, folks. He preferred dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery. He wrote that in a letter to James Madison in 1787 . Here’s another great quote from Thomas Jefferson. “What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” That’s right. Enemies, foreign and domestic, my friends. You heard what Jefferson said.

Evan Nappen 41:40

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” Pure common sense spoken by Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book, quoting the 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria. Here’s another quote from Thomas Jefferson. “A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” Let that one sink in, folks. Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to Peter Carr from August of 1785.

Evan Nappen 42:27

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; and they may exercise it by themselves, and that is their right and duty to be armed at all times. Let all those quotes from Thomas Jefferson sink in. Think about them as we celebrate the 250th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and the man that was the chief engineer of that document and how that man viewed our Second Amendment rights. Page – 13 – of 15

Teddy Nappen 43:43

I will also say, like, I don’t know if you did. Did you ever get to go to Monticello? Did you and Mom get to go?

Evan Nappen 44:09

Thanks for mentioning it. No, that is on my bucket list, and I’m going there. My wife went. You’ve gone.

Teddy Nappen 44:18

No, I didn’t. I didn’t get to go.

Evan Nappen 44:20

What? You didn’t either?

Teddy Nappen 44:20

Nope. Just Mom.

Evan Nappen 44:21

Teddy, you and I have got to go.

Teddy Nappen 44:23

Just Mom got to go. That’s why.

Evan Nappen 44:25

This is just wrong. I’ve got to go to Monticello. I’ve meaning to get there. And it’s bugging the hell out of me.

Teddy Nappen 44:33

If you ever do go there, they have his pistols. His famed pistols that were, I think, gifted to him. (https://www.monticello.org/encyclopedia/firearms) Yeah, his famed twin pocket pistols that were gifts from, I believe it was a pair of Turkish pistols received from General Isaac Zane in place of a monetary bequest.

Evan Nappen 45:07

Bequest. He gifted him these pistols.

Teddy Nappen 45:11

Okay.

Evan Nappen 45:12

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 45:14

It was also kind of interesting that Jefferson loved to go out and do competition shoots. He would do a lot of them, and he was a fairly good marksman. There were marks in his letters showing that he noted Page – 14 – of 15

in his accounts, I won a shooting in one of six, it was a muster with Captain Jacob Moon’s Albany County Militia Company. He lost two to six, but as he grew older, his limited exercise. He moved more to firearms and hunting over his horseback riding. He even had designs, and there was accounting of a double-barreled gun lock that he had drawn. So, there’s various other bits in his accounts.

Evan Nappen 46:01

Like I said, he’s one of us, man. One hundred percent. Hey, this is wonderful, an incredibly important part of our heritage and our tradition. Jefferson stands tall. All the Founding Fathers were, of course, gun owners and knew the importance of arms, but Jefferson is special, without a doubt. Jefferson is special.

Evan Nappen 46:32

And you know, Teddy, I want to tell you about this week’s GOFU. This is a GOFU that every time in the practice of gun law, there’s something new. Some other GOFU that I’d not even heard about before, and it just blows me away. It constantly gets crazier and worse, and I want everyone to understand this GOFU, which is, of course, a Gun Owner Fuck Up. Where individuals are now experiencing expensive lessons, or have experienced expensive lessons that you can hopefully avoid for free by listening to Gun Lawyer.

Evan Nappen 47:16

So, this week’s GOFU concerns the following. We have a couple, a husband and wife, that are not getting along well with one another, and okay, it happens, right? It happens. Well, it ends up where at some point there’s a fight, and like the old kind of comedy issue you’ve seen on TV, where often it’s the woman, it doesn’t have to be, but often is, throws the husband’s clothing or the belongings out the window to get out. That kind of a thing. Well, in this case, apparently his firearms were tossed out onto the lawn. I guess it sends a message as to throwing out things that the other party believes they care about. But whatever. I’m not going to get into the psychology of it. The bottom line is that this takes place. What happens? Well, it ends up where the police get involved. The police get involved because it falls under the so-called banner of domestic violence. Anytime there is domestic violence, police are called in over any claim of domestic violence, and it’s so broad. Remember, domestic violence could be anything, even harassment, which the essence of which is doing something to purposely annoy another. Now, I know none of you have ever purposely annoyed your spouse or your boyfriend or your girlfriend, but if you did, then you arguably committed domestic violence for harassment.

Evan Nappen 48:57

Anyway, that can bring the police into your lives, and this is where you get to live the famous saying of Ronald Reagan. “We’re here from the Government, and we’re here to help.” And, of course, that was one of the best, most sarcastic things that Reagan ever said. Because we’re here from the Government and we’re here to help, is of course the exact opposite. And that’s what happened here. The Government gets involved, and both parties are questioned over various allegations. It doesn’t matter what. The bottom line is that the domestic violence forms are filled out where the issue is documented, and the wife is asked, do you want a restraining order? And she wisely says no. This is internal. They’re squabbling, or whatever. She doesn’t need a restraining order. The husband, who related his whole side of everything there too, is asked, “do you want a restraining order? And he wisely said no, as well. Page – 15 – of 15

Evan Nappen 50:11

So, now you have a couple that are trying. They’re going to do whatever, but they don’t want restraining orders. They don’t want the Government in their life. They’re not interested in that. But what happens? The Government files Red Flags, TERPOs, Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Orders on both of them. Neither of them wanted a restraining order. Neither one wanted it, but it didn’t matter. The Government now files to take away both of their gun rights. To take away their guns and put them on a list of extreme risk. This puts you on a database that could even arguably be accessed by TSA or others that you’re a danger. It has farther reaching collateral consequences than just taking guns and taking away your gun rights. Putting you into the court system now to have to individually fight TERPOs, because we’re from the Government and we’re here to help. That, my friends, is the GOFU. Keep it in mind at all times about being from the Government and there to help. Especially on the 250th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

Evan Nappen 51:37

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Even Thomas Jefferson knew that.

Speaker 3 51:50

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E297 TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 296-Trump Pushes National Constitutional CarryAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 12

Gun Lawyer — Episode 296 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, pistol brace, bump stock, Glock ban, iron pipeline, national constitutional carry, gun rights, anti-gun laws, gun safety, Hollywood depiction, firearm training, gun laws, civil rights, gun ownership, gun violence.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:21

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:22

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what have you brought to the table today?

Teddy Nappen 00:33

Well, I’m always amazed by every single time they always try to say Trump’s not doing enough. Like you hear the horseshoe, right? It’s amazing the idea of just, oh, he hasn’t done enough, or they do the goal post move. Where they move it. They say he hasn’t done anything, or they move in and say he hasn’t done enough. I keep hearing this all the time about people with regards to the Second Amendment. They always try to highlight that stupid thing regarding the, what was it? The pistol brace at the time, because the writing on the wall that they try.

Evan Nappen 01:16

Well, remember, keep in mind that with the pistol brace originally, NRA was not real keen on them either. You may remember, you know. So, Trump was trying to also go along with what the organizations themselves were doing, remember, because the brace thing was. But what you eventually saw, and what you’re seeing now, just on that is the elimination of the brace being an SBR, and that whole Merrick Garland insanity of having to register pistol braces. They put the reg forward on their, which should be official shortly, getting rid of that completely. We’re going to, on another shows talk about anybody if you happened to register a braced pistol as an SBR, what you need to do. Because that’s all history, and Trump has ensured that it’s now history, and let’s give credit there for that. Page – 2 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 02:35

And they always highlight the bump stock thing. By the way, the writing was on the wall of why Obama wanted to let that through was because they were going to equate ARs to machine guns, and that led to where.

Evan Nappen 02:50

That’s right. So, remember the anti-rights, the oppressionists, they always have a game plan. So, their game plan was, look, if we have the bump stock thing going, then we can claim that semi-automatics are like machine guns. Then we can go after them and get a ban on semi-automatics as machine guns. And what Trump was doing politically in that sense was thwarting their political move. Now, if you say, ‘Oh, well, that isn’t.. how do you know that’s their plan? Or that was.. well, I’ll tell you what. If you want to see that as their plan, you could see it in action right now as they ban Glocks. California just banned Glock pistols, and what is your basis for banning Glocks? Oh, well, they’re easily convertible with Glock switches, you see. So, this is always the gambit of the Second Amendment oppressionists. Now we ban handguns that are perfectly legal, the most popular handgun in America, and we ban it, how? Oh, because you can put an unlawful Glock switch, which turns it into select fire. These switches are in and of themselves, just possession of a switch, is the same as possessing a machine gun. The switches are banned! But they use it as the pretext to expand it, and then ban the handguns themselves.

Evan Nappen 04:35

You also saw them attempt this with the so-called iron pipeline.

Teddy Nappen 04:40

Operation Fast and Furious.

Evan Nappen 04:40

They were laying the groundwork for the iron pipeline. They wanted to say, oh, American guns, semi-autos, are going to Mexico to the narco terrorists, and all. And what did they do? They changed the 4473 to ask, are you Hispanic or not? Like, why are they asking that? And then they had multiple rifle reporting on border states. Why are they doing that? And then, of course, they do Operation Fast and Furious, so they could paint the picture to then push a gun ban based on the iron pipeline down south. But lo and behold, they step on their own toes here. We’ll use that word instead. And Operation Fast and Furious blows up in their face because they’re selling the guns themselves to the narco terrorists, and end up killing a federal agent, no less. So, that plan went all to hell.

Evan Nappen 05:35

But you see, this is what they do. They lay the groundwork with these things, and that’s really what was going on there, on that. But with this Administration, we’ve never had an administration this pro-Second Amendment rights that it’s ever been president, ever. They’re now saying to California, get rid of that Glock ban or the Justice Department of the federal government is going after California. In other words, we finally have the federal government not pursuing oppression of the Second Amendment, but of enforcing our rights and preserving and fighting for our rights. They did it, and they’re doing it in all different facets. They’re doing it by administrative reg changes, 34 great changes. They’re doing it by Page – 3 – of 12

the litigation. They’re doing it by getting a focus of civil rights and putting the Second Amendment into that category.

Evan Nappen 06:40

And now President Trump, just recently at a rally in Pennsylvania, said he wants to see and is pushing for National Constitutional Carry. Now, keep in mind this is beyond national reciprocity. National Constitutional Carry is the ability to lawfully carry your handgun anywhere in the United States with no permission slip. Ending the requirements, in effect, for permits. Or at least having it so that there’s national reciprocity that respects the majority of states that don’t require any permit. So that with National Constitutional Carry, a person who is a resident of a Constitutional carry state can carry, for example, in New York or New Jersey and all these oppression states with no permit, because it will be national. If you think about what the Second Amendment means, the right to keep and bear arms bearing is carrying, and the Second Amendment means that very thing. And that’s why it’s constitutional.

Teddy Nappen 08:17

You also have to remember, Dad, like think back to Shaneen Allen. If this law comes into play, that would have avoided that entire BS that she went through. Her only crime was crossing the Franklin Bridge.

Evan Nappen 08:40

Without the piece of paper that New Jersey recognizes. That’s right! Think of how many completely law-abiding citizens are turned into criminals, have their life destroyed, forced into a criminal judicial system for exercising a Constitutional right. They weren’t committing any crimes. They weren’t robbing, stealing, raping. No, no, no, nothing. Just, oh, you have a gun, and we’re not recognizing your right in this jurisdiction. That’s why this has to go. That’s why it’s a civil right, and it’s really great to see President Trump pushing it again.

Teddy Nappen 09:21

If they were robbing, stealing, or raping, they would just be let off, no bail, no nothing.

Evan Nappen 09:26

Well, if they’re an illegal alien, of course.

Teddy Nappen 09:30

Yes, of course.

Evan Nappen 09:31

And not only that, they would not even cooperate with ICE to have them deported, but that’s separate.

Teddy Nappen 09:38

Yeah. Page – 4 – of 12

Evan Nappen 09:38

We’re talking here about law-abiding Americans with rights that are getting oppressed. What’s really interesting is that President Trump is pushing it now, making it an issue. Not just leaving it in the shadows, but making it a specific issue out there. And at the same time, he’s pushing for the Save Act, so we have integrity in our voting system. He’s pushing like never before to get rid of the filibuster. The filibuster is what is stopping the Republican-controlled Congress from being able to pass the agenda that we voted for. It’s because of the filibuster. As it stands now, you need 60 votes, and that lets the oppressors still have power to stop these laws from going through. And you know, if the Democrats ever gained power again, the first thing they’re going to do is get rid of the filibuster. So, cut it out. I didn’t see the filibuster in our Constitution. It talks about majority for passing legislation in each house. Okay, that’s what it is. So, this filibuster thing is a contrivance, and it needs to go. It is time, because we can get these laws through, and we can get the changes that we need on so many fronts, including the Second Amendment rights. It’s very important, critical.

Teddy Nappen 11:30

Yeah, and this also comes from this. It’s right an article from MSN. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-administration-is-working-on-nationwide-right-to-carry-legislation/ar-AA26oxMC) When he was unveiling the new aircraft at Andrews Air Force base, one of the attendees asked about it, and he said, “Yep, we’re working on it. That sends it right there, because that puts it in. Not only you just said not to the national spot, but it also had all the gun rights oppressionists jumping up, screaming, no, no, no. Like going, like just immediately. It’s so funny.

Evan Nappen 12:07

It’s (Senator) Mike Lee’s bill. (https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/4013/text) (Senator) Mike Lee has the bill, and they are working on it. This is a major, major law. It’s probably the single most important pro-Second Amendment rights law that we could pass in modern times. First of all, it will have a wonderful effect on reducing crime. We’re facing these criminals that were let loose into our country through four years of Biden and his policies, plus the blue state policies of the revolving door with no cash bails and all that. So, we need to be able to defend ourselves. But it also will make it so that carry is every individual, who chooses to have a firearm to protect themselves, and this will make it much simpler for individuals to do that very thing. Has a vested interest in preserving and fighting for their Second Amendment rights. It will be the biggest game changer that we could look for.

Evan Nappen 13:22

Because as we evolve in our Second Amendments, where the base used to be the strongest base of our gun rights was hunters, it really has shifted. There’s less hunting and less hunting lands, unfortunately, and it shifted to a major uptick, tremendous uptick, in firearms for self-defense and personal protection and individual carry. This will solidify it to the ultimate, the ultimate lifestyle of Constitutional carry for all. That’s what we want to see. We will have a safer society. We’ll have a safer country. Individuals will be able to protect their families, their themselves, their loved ones. It is absolutely the best thing we could do for public safety and the protection of our sacred Constitutional rights. Page – 5 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 14:32

I will say, as well, I love just.. I pulled this from Giffords. (https://giffords.org/press-release/2026/06/giffords-condemns-trumps-push-for-national-right-to-carry-legislation/) Gabby Giffords, of course, who is one of the.. you know, out of.. I would say. Would you say Gifford is probably the smallest out of the gun rights of oppressors? There’s still a factor, but out of comparatively, compared to, like.

Evan Nappen 14:49

Well, The Trace and Bloomturd and his organization probably has the most influence, but then you know.

Teddy Nappen 15:00

They fund each other, and yeah, they do fund them, too.

Evan Nappen 15:04

But, you know, the whole thing that also is true is that the anti-Second Amendment rights groups themselves are not really made of that many members. They don’t have anywhere near the passion and the numbers of which there are gun owners in America and guns in America. They like to gloss over that little fact. They’re basically small but well heeled, well financed. Slick and propagandized, and have an agenda of billionaires that they try to jam down the overwhelming majority of Americans’ throats that actually support the Constitution, and particularly the Second Amendment. So, that’s really, I mean, you don’t see it in terms of numbers. Now, they’ll hold rallies or whatever, and they’ll pay people to turn out. They’ll link in with other groups that are Left wing and such to make their numbers appear big. But there’s a tremendous difference between the pro-Second Amendment rights forces people and the anti-Second Amendment rights forces people.

Teddy Nappen 16:32

And it’s also they never changed the argument. Because right here, right out of her own quote, concealed carry reciprocity is a dangerously reckless proposal, and would jeopardize the lives of the children, families, and police. People should not have guns who have no training, who have never passed a background check, and would be able to carry concealed weapons in every community, no questions asked.

Evan Nappen 17:01

Yes, and that is absolute garbage. The majority of America already has Constitutional Carry. In the majority of states, 70% of the land mass of the U.S., you can carry now with no permit. So, obviously it’s flawed. I mean, look, murder rates have gone down nationally. But, of course, in the Blue cities, where they have the failure to cooperate with the federal government, where crime is out of control, it’s problematic there. But overall, guess what? The incredible decline in violent crime and murder rates corresponds brilliantly to civilian expansion of carry. That’s what you don’t hear. When they talk about how great we’re doing overall in terms of stopping and fighting violent crime and how those statistics show that we’ve improved, it correlates, it follows expansion of our ability to carry, either by shall-issue permit and/or Constitutional Carry. That’s why a national carry will enshrine it and make it the law of the land. We’ll see even better statistics and less people being victims instead of defenders. Page – 6 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 18:42

You always have to go to the fact, and they always say, if it saves one life. How about 2 million to 2.5 million in defensive uses of firearms that have saved lives per year.

Evan Nappen 18:54

Right!

Teddy Nappen 18:55

Just going off, you can even ignore the correlation / causation factor, and you can just cite to the fact that 2 million lives are saved from defensive uses of a firearm. If they go for the “save one life”, we’ve got to protect the children, yet it saves lives. Just flat out argument to that. But no, they always go to you’re going to be arming criminals and traffickers and lead to more gun deaths. All right. That’s ridiculous.

Evan Nappen 19:24

Here’s the bottom line. It’s real simple. You can sum it up real easy. Guns Save Lives. Do you need to write that down? I mean, Guns Save Lives. And unfortunately, the cohorts of the oppressionists is the media. The mainstream, lame stream media that loves to push the agenda of the billionaire elitists that want our rights destroyed and that’s a fact. Guns Save Lives. And when you can, as an individual, protect yourself and your loved ones. Anyone who’s a gun owner knows that feeling of security and safety when you’re trained and know how to shoot and have your own firearm. You know that you can do it. And that is what enshrines it to the person, what puts it right in their heart. They go, yeah, I get it. I get it. Especially individuals who have actually had to use firearms, or they realize the famous saying of “I’d rather have a gun and not need it than need it and not have it”. And those that have needed one and not had it. Yeah, they paid a price, and those that have had it when they needed, it saved lives.

Teddy Nappen 20:57

It makes me think back to, I don’t know if you remember seeing this. Do you know who Jamal Bowman is? Mister pull the Fire Alarm, because I can’t open a door.

Evan Nappen 21:05

Yeah, right. That guy.

Teddy Nappen 21:07

I remember him having a shouting match. It was like a couple years ago. It was him and Massie. He was arguing about, arguing for, more restrictive guns measures. Calling Republicans cowards, and he was screaming, and say, ‘You want more guns, you’re gonna lead to more death. Like, just screaming, screaming that it would cause more death. Screaming, ‘You’re all cowards. You don’t save children. Like, just screaming about it. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/democrat-calls-republicans-cowards-tense-exchange-gun-violence-rcna77342) They do not care about the statistics. They do not care about the facts and the logic behind it. They just see weapon bad. Weapon is used by the oppression. Page – 7 – of 12

Evan Nappen 21:46

Wait. You’re telling me that Democrat issues are emotion-based? I find that hard to believe, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 21:53

I know, right. Whoops, sorry.

Evan Nappen 21:55

Yeah, at least.

Teddy Nappen 21:56

They banned logic in ’84.

Evan Nappen 21:58

I guess they did. They did. Well, Teddy, let me talk about our good friends at WeShoot, our favorite range. It’s where you and I shoot and get our training and got our certificates, so that we can carry. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey, and a great facility. They are running an America 250th Anniversary sale. That’s right. This is a pretty cool sale, actually. They are offering 15% off all of their pre-loved firearms. You know what a pre-loved firearm is, right? Fifteen percent off for any of those, and 25% off their Heritage Collection. These are all these guns. There’s tremendously great guns that they have for sales, the 15% off sale across the board. You’ve got to check out what they have at WeShoot. They have an amazing selection and that’s of course on their pre-loved guns. Their Heritage Collection, man, is 25% off, and that is some sweet guns. Let me tell you. The Heritage Collection has, for example, I’ll just tell you about a few. Fox Sterlingworth shotgun, Fox “A” shotgun. You know, we’re talking these beauties. Fox AEs, and all these Richards. W. Richards SXs, you know, they’re the 10 gauge Richards. Fox CES, Parker Brothers, Trojan, the fevers, the nitros. We’re talking all the LC Smiths, Parkers. The classics of the scattergun world, man. The best of the best, and those are 25% off.

Evan Nappen 24:17

So, you want to go to WeShoot and get your training there. It’s a great facility with a great indoor range. Conveniently located right off the Parkway, right in Lakewood, New Jersey. Central Jersey. Our ranges are critical. They are a resource. I mean, what good is it if you can’t shoot? If you don’t have any place to shoot? We’re lucky we have a great place to shoot. It’s called WeShoot. You can check out their website – weshootusa.com. Brilliant website with fantastic photography. They treat their customers so well. Teddy and I love WeShoot, and I know you will, too. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 25:03

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages. It’s over 120 topics, all question and answer, making it easy, so that you don’t become the next GOFU. New Jersey’s laws are complicated, and it can be very perilous. As a matter of fact, the case law even says, when dealing with New Jersey gun laws, you act at your own peril. Even the courts recognize that the gun laws are perilous. So, to help defeat the peril and manage it, get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com, and get your copy today. You’ll be glad you did, Teddy. What else have you discovered in your travels? Page – 8 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 26:01

So, every time you turn on a TV show or movie, like out of modern Hollywood, you’ve probably seen some anti-gun messaging. It’s always there, some little.

Evan Nappen 26:02

Yeah, some subliminal, some obvious. Nonsense.

Teddy Nappen 26:12

An individual who is carrying, who ends up making the situation worse, or a kid finds the gun in the house and then shoots himself. These are others, or whatever, it’s always right,

Evan Nappen 26:36

Mishandling.

Teddy Nappen 26:37

You always see that. So, apparently this stems from Brady United, you know, Brady’s still a thing, apparently. They decided to meet with. This, is right from the NPR website. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/13/1104594849/hollywood-pledge-onscreen-guns) Two hundred screenwriters, producers, studio executives, talking about responsibility of depicting firearms in film and television. We are partnering with major partners like Paramount, Walt Disney Studios, CBS Studios. To date, an estimated 150 viewers have watched Project Brady has influenced things like from HBO Euphoria – it’s not even cracking anywhere – from people caring about that show to Netflix, Little House on the Prairie reboot. Again, something no one else also isn’t really watching. Just bear in mind, I love how everyone’s screaming about, like, Paramount is like big in with conservatives and Trump. They’ve made some good shows, but they also produced the most woke Star Trek series known to man, where you had a retarded AI who was also a he/she/it. Like it’s that, so it’s that level.

Evan Nappen 26:37

They almost covered all the bases.

Teddy Nappen 27:23

I know, right? And then, like, there was a gay.

Evan Nappen 27:26

I heard they modeled a lot of it after Tim Walsh, right? Anyway.

Teddy Nappen 27:56

Well, good luck with that. But yeah, and so they outlined this. Our show gun safety principles. I think they ripped this off of our range principle, but okay. To help Hollywood model safer behaviors around guns. We’re not just changing the story, we’re saving lives. Page – 9 – of 12

Evan Nappen 28:27

Well, you know, okay. What they’re doing here is they love to call every gun rights oppression law is a “gun safety law”. Gun safety to them is just banning guns, banning gun rights, going after in every way they can us and our rights and our guns. They just put it under a banner of safety. So, anytime I hear that they’re promoting so-called “gun safety”, well, gun safety to them is not what gun safety is necessarily to us. Now, if it was honestly showing better gun safety in the media, I’m not against that. I’m all for safe gun handling, but I tell you what. I have an idea better than what the gun rights oppressionists are pushing, where they’re trying to get the writers to write it into the stories.

Evan Nappen 29:39

Here’s something very simple that could be done, but they’ll never do it. Here’s what needs to be done. You know, at the beginning of many movies and shows, there are warnings. Warning” contains sexual or smoking. They even warn about, you know, violence. They warn about all kinds of racial stereotypes. They put all these warnings at the beginning. Here’s a warning I want to see on every show and movie before it’s shown. “The following shows improper handling of firearms.” Put it as a warning. Do you know how many times you would see that warning? On every show. And what it would do? It would show America just how bad the entertainment world is, just how bad these shows are for what they show. Anytime a gun is used illegally or improperly, that show should have the warning. “Firearms here are being shown used illegally and improperly.” However, you want to word the warning.

Evan Nappen 31:00

Every time that warning would come up, it would send the message. Look who is showing wrongdoing. It’s the media. So, it would go hand in hand with arguably what The Trace and these guys, Brady and all are trying to do. It would go hand in hand with it. They want to promote safety. We’ll put warnings when the unsafety is being shown. I’d love to see that. Look, I don’t want to restrict anybody’s First Amendment. It’s just a warning about what’s coming up. I’m not looking to have any kind of censorship on it. They can show unsafe gun handling all day long, but just put a warning up front that that’s what’s coming. If you can warn about smoking, warn about offensive language, if you can warn about all this other, why not warn about that?

Teddy Nappen 32:02

I remember there was a, I think it was either Bloomberg or Everytown who put out after there was a big shooting, and they got a lot of Hollywood actors who were just naming off mass shootings. Someone did a super cut showing them misusing firearms in movies, just to show the hypocrisy. It’s very hilarious. This is just them also running cover because of the violence depicted in movies, because they have that. Not talking about, they don’t talk about that. They want to talk about the gun. But here’s the three principles, just as a reminder. Model responsible gun ownership, especially secure storage. Show the consequences of reckless gun use. What’s reckless? Oh, you know, defending yourself with a firearm. Have at least one conversation during pre-production on the ways guns will be portrayed on screen. And this is most important of all. Limit scenes with children and guns. That right there is important, because you want to. Page – 10 – of 12

Evan Nappen 33:10

Because they want to make the younger generation not have any familiarity or love of firearms whatsoever. It’s not let’s teach how to shoot safely and properly, and enjoy shooting sports, and mature to be able to have the ability to defend yourself and your family. No, no, shut them out of it. Shut them out of it. Get them out of it. We don’t want to have the young being gun owners in the future, and this is how we stop it.

Teddy Nappen 33:47

Yeah, and then they highlight their successes. They bring up. I love this one. They bring up Tulsa King. There’s a scene where a character is teaching his girl how to shoot. He’s just going through like the very first rule of gun safety first. Safety always. It’s especially important. Always assume the gun is loaded. Never point anything you’re not intending to shoot. I like how they take credit for just basic range safety. Like we did that.

Evan Nappen 34:19

I like, you know, back when America was America, you had great movies like Shane. I mean, one of the greatest scenes in Shane is with Alan Ladd and the young boy, who’s enthralled with him and his firearm. Like any young boy should be. And remember the mom is like, “Oh, I don’t want my son, I don’t want my son having guns and dealing with guns. And what does he say? Marion, a gun is just a tool.” And there you go. One of the, you know, most awesome, pro-Second Amendment rights statement. Making it clear a gun is just a tool, Marion. And it is. It’s a tool for our safety. It’s a tool for our liberty. It’s a tool for our freedom. It’s a tool for our security. That’s the kind of message we love to see.

Teddy Nappen 35:17

For me, I like “The River of No Return”.

Evan Nappen 35:22

You would like that.

Teddy Nappen 35:23

Yeah. Where the guy has his son, who wants to learn how to shoot. He learns, and he saves his dad through back shooting. After he gets.

Evan Nappen 35:32

Hey, there you go, man. He saved his dad. Hey, look, didn’t John Wayne in (The Man Who Shot) Liberty Valance kind of do that anyway? In The Shootest, he didn’t want to shoot anybody in the back, but I kind of thought that happened in Liberty Valance. Maybe was not crystal clear, but he definitely ambushed him to save Jimmy Stewart, right?

Teddy Nappen 35:52

Yeah, Jimmy Stewart. Page – 11 – of 12

Evan Nappen 35:53

He saved Jimmy Stewart’s ass with that shot. So, yeah, no, but look, what’s wrong with saving lives, and the good guys winning? I mean, that’s nice, you know. Beating the bad guys, not being a victim. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you’re justified and legal, and there you go. That works.

Teddy Nappen 36:14

And then this is something I wanted to highlight, though, for people to remember. They got to all these show writers they had, for instance, like all signed this ridiculous letter. It was JJ Abrams, you know, the guy that ruined Star Trek. You have all these actors, producers, and directors signing this Brady show gun safety letter, this open letter. “Guns are prominently featured in TV and movies in every corner of the globe, but only America has a gun violence epidemic.” Okay, cut to the rest of the world. First, already debunked. “The responsibility lies with lax gun laws supported by those politicians more afraid of losing power than saving lives.” There we go. Another one right there. Lax laws. Thinking they’ll save lives. “We didn’t cause the problem, but we want to help fix it.” As America’s storytellers, our goal is to primarily entertain . . .” That’s not true in Hollywood. “. . . but we also acknowledge that stories have the power to effect change.”

Evan Nappen 37:16

They’re a propaganda factory is what they are.

Teddy Nappen 37:18

Correct. “Cultural attitude towards smoking, drunk driving, seat belts, and marriage equality have all evolved due in large part to movies’ and TV’s influence.” I’m pretty sure people are still drinking and driving. I’m pretty sure people are smoking, but now they’re vaping. So, that’s a whole.. and now, because that, they have to turn it towards vaping. And seat belts, okay, and marriage equality, okay. Now, the point now where they’ve lost.

Evan Nappen 37:49

The whole political agenda through their propaganda efforts through entertainment. Hey, Teddy, I want to tell you about a very important GOFU this week. This week’s GOFU, remember, GOFUs are Gun Owner Fuck Ups. These are actual cases. Real deal things that you need to know. These are expensive lessons that somebody else has paid for that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU is really something that you may not have considered before, but you really should. If you ride motorcycles and such, make sure that the holster you use is not a clip-on style holster. You know, the kind. Make sure it’s an actual belt looped, so that your holster doesn’t come off while you’re riding your motorcycle. Because particularly susceptible.

Evan Nappen 38:55

Now, granted, this can happen in a car, too. In a car, the firearm is going to end up on your floor of your car. But on a motorcycle, if that holster comes off the belt because it’s a clip on, even with the gun in it, or for that matter, if the gun falls out of the holster, you want to make sure your holster securely holds a firearm. You have to make sure the holster is secured to your belt. In motorcycling, with the vibration, the noise, etc., it’s very easy for an individual not to notice it falling off one’s body. You know you’re riding your bike and all that’s going on with the vibration and the road bumping and all these things Page – 12 – of 12

you’re dealing with, and it’s very easy to have that type of clip on holster come off. And then what happens? The gun and the holster fall off somewhere on your ride, and you don’t even realize it.

Evan Nappen 40:12

Once you realize that you’ve lost it, you have 36 hours to report it lost or stolen in New Jersey, and this now jeopardizes, potentially, you being able to maintain your gun licenses. And if somebody else gets a hold of that gun, there can be further issues. So, please make sure that your holster is on your belt in a way that it cannot be removed unless you intentionally take it off through the loops. It’s very important. You don’t want to become a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 40:54

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 41:05

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E296_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 295-Bang and Bong… You just got BothAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 12

Gun Lawyer Transcript – Episode 295

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court ruling, Second Amendment, marijuana prohibition, gun rights, NRA, ACLU, Justice Thomas, Commerce Clause, firearm regulation, self-defense, Bruen framework, gun violence, international gun laws, warning shots, New Jersey gun law.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, just now we just got word of the Supreme Court handing down the ruling in the Hemani case, and this is really quite a startling win. (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-1234_g2bh.pdf) Not necessarily because it was a win, but because it was a unanimous win! What we have is the U.S. Supreme Court in a nine to zero opinion essentially determining the unconstitutionality of marijuana creating a gun prohibitor under federal law. So, for these years you’ve had issues, and we’ve talked about it on the show, where folks that had even a medical marijuana weed card, or they used, or they had any kind of history of prior possession/conviction for misdemeanor marijuana. All that has caused just a lot of folks to not be able to exercise their Second Amendment rights. In the past, we actually coined the term from the show, “Bang or Bong, you can’t have both”. Because of how they, they being the Government, how the Government was interpreting this. To the degree where federal dealers were issued memoranda from ATF telling them that they could not sell to these folks that admitted to using all this regarding marijuana and laid out this as enforceable prohibition.

Evan Nappen 02:15

And by the way, this is also the thing that Hunter Biden was prosecuted for. Hunter Biden’s gun case is essentially this issue as well. So, we’re happy to say, and not necessarily for any reason because of Hunter Biden, but because it is a win for the Second Amendment. To see a unanimous decision. Let that sink in, folks. Every judge on the Supreme Court agreeing with an enforcement of the Second Amendment. Just that alone, regardless of the issue, is really great to see. Just that. Here there were interesting bed fellows, as they say. We had the lawsuit challenge, etc., the legal action, joined the NRA and the ACLU on the same side. So, we had both the NRA and the ACLU on the same side arguing for this. To not prohibit individuals from Second Amendment rights. So, this is very significant, and it’s interesting. Page – 2 – of 12

Evan Nappen 03:39

Judge Gorsuch delivered the opinion of the Court. In the facts of this case, Hemani used marijuana a few times a week, and because of that the Government claimed that he’s automatically banned from possessing a firearm under federal law. And because Hemani admitted that he owns a gun, despite the ban, the Government was now seeking to prosecute him. To imprison him for up to 15 years and disarm him for life. This case here posed that question, whether the Government’s prosecution of Hemani is consistent with the Second Amendment. A unanimous decision found that it was not consistent with the Second Amendment. So, Teddy, what do you think about this decision?

Teddy Nappen 04:40

Well, for me, as soon as this case came out, I had to look. What did Judge Thomas say? Because he’s the funniest of them all.

Evan Nappen 04:49

Well, that’s true.

Teddy Nappen 04:50

I had to go right to his opinion. And of course, Justice Thomas, being the greatest justice to have ever lived, and the fact that he is an originalist to perfection. Of course, he said we did not go far enough! Particularly, and I love how he writes this. “I agree with the Court that 922(g)(3) violates the Second Amendment as applied to respondent Ali Hemani, and I join it’s opinion in full. I write separately to call attention to another issue: As a matter of both original meaning and this Court’s precedents . . .” It appears to exceed Congressional enumerated power and regulate interstate commerce. He attacks the commerce clause throughout this. He even highlights the fact that the Government, if the firearms possession by the drug user had previously traveled through interstate commerce, the commerce clause does not authorize Congress to regulate or ban possession of any item that has ever been offered for sale or cross state lines. He cites Alderman. His dissent is on the denial of certiorari, where this conversion of congressional authority under the commerce clause to a general police power is sort retained by the states.

Evan Nappen 06:12

You see, this is really important, Teddy. Because what Judge Thomas is doing there is he’s going beyond. He’s looking at the power grab, the overreach of the power of interstate commerce. And ever since the expansion of that Wickard versus Filburn. (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/317/111/) Ever since the expansion of that, it basically empowered the Government, the federal Government, to do anything it wants, as long as they can make some tenuous argument that it somehow affects interstate commerce. And I’m really glad to see that he’s out there, at least as a voice trying to pull back that insane power grab that occurred back under Franklin Delano Roosevelt,

Teddy Nappen 06:58

As you’re reading through his opinion, too, he takes a bat directly to the congressional authority. He bashes the commerce clause directly of how. How is it that something travels, like, how does that fall Page – 3 – of 12

under interstate commerce when it’s not traveling between the states? He is going at it hard, outlining each bit case by case, showing the abuse by it. He even highlights how, I love this line, the gun possession statute issues in Lopez is not a regulation of economic activity, but a law to combat “crime and violence”, even at the local level. Literally calls it out. How is this economic activity when you’re just doing this for regulating crime?

Evan Nappen 07:48

Oh yeah. Well, you know, in the decision, this is very interesting, they, they being the Court, outline their ruling, and why. And I think you’ll find it very interesting here, where they talk about that Mr. Hemani. He admitted his use of marijuana, and he knowingly possessed the gun in his home, being an “unlawful user of the substance”. And if you look at that, it seems to fit exactly what the law is prohibiting. And what the actual holding of the Supreme Court held that the Government’s prosecution of Hermani under 922 unlawful user provision is inconsistent with the Second Amendment. And here in the holding it actually says the Second Amendment protects the rights of all Americans, but they had that in quotes to keep and bear firearms for self-defense. So, there’s even an affirmation of the right to self-defense. They are citing Heller with that.

Evan Nappen 09:15

Though, like most individual rights, it has its limits to determine when the Government infringes on the Second Amendment. The court begins by asking whether the amendment’s terms cover the conduct in question. If so, the Constitution presumptively protects it. That’s citing Bruen. To overcome the presumption, the Government bears the burden. The Government bears the burden of showing its regulatory efforts are consistent with the nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. That is the test, and the burden is on the Government to have to show it. The Government need not point to a historical twin or precise historical precursor that’s from Rahimi, that’s the Rahimi case. Instead, the appropriate analysis involves considering whether the challenged regulation is consistent with the principles that underpin our regulatory tradition. The government may reason by analogy. This is where the battle comes in, in our fight for our Second Amendment rights

Evan Nappen 10:35

Now, it says further, the Government accepts this framework, and they proceeded to argue from it. So, this is very exciting in terms of the test being applied. The court looking at the Government’s argument of traditional habitual drunkards losing their rights, and the court, through the opinion, just absolutely distinguishes between this marijuana ban and historical precedent concerning habitual drunkards. Then they also put into play about the decision being narrow. And here’s where, Teddy, what you just said about Justice Thomas, he wants it to be broad. But the decision itself says it’s narrow. It does not address efforts to ban addicts or those presently intoxicated from possessing a firearm. Then it also talks about whether individuals convicted of felonies could be prosecuted. So, they tried to contain it narrowly. But if you step back and just look at the big picture in regards to a nine to zero opinion on a gun rights issue, that to me is probably the most outstanding thing about it. We got the whole Court on board. Page – 4 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 12:21

I will say, if you go to Jackson’s “concurrent opinion”, she doesn’t even talk about the case. She literally spends the entire thing bashing Bruen. I was reading through it, and she literally just spends the entire thing in full. She says I write to emphasize my scrutiny. The court applies to the, we adopted Bruen be his “history and tradition metric”, which more rational way of assessing the Constituent’s regulations. Bruen is unworkable, and it creates such a vulnerability of inconsistent, arbitrary application. Oh, like most gun laws?

Evan Nappen 13:01

Yeah. Well, keep in mind the politics here. She’s purposely trying to attack Thomas over Bruen. And yet, what she can’t stand is that she’s ruling in favor of the Second Amendment. But in so doing, it means that Bruen is being empowered here. She’s like the computer on Star Trek. She’s going to explode that it’s now affecting the issue of marijuana, and the ACLU is on this side. Yet, how could she actually use, you know, Thomas’s brilliance here, even though it’s what she believes is the right thing to do, but can’t give credit. So, it’s like, you know, she’s just exploding over it. But she still has to side with the full unanimous majority, and that’s why it is that astounding. Because even a justice like her, who is so blatantly politically and hardly viewed as an educated jurist here by comparison to so many of the others on the Court. This is what you see happen. So, it’s pretty good there.

Evan Nappen 15:19

Like applying the Constitution instead of, “It’s a living document”, which it isn’t, and start applying that whole.

Teddy Nappen 15:41

Fine, just no, just no, fine, fine. No 19th Amendment, got it. Like it’s so ridiculous. So, they only apply it when they choose to.

Evan Nappen 15:53

Hey, but even with all that said. It was still nine to zero, in favor of 2A. So, for that we can be happy to see. And of course, we’re now waiting for Wolford, and that is a “sensitive places” decision, which should also be very interesting on how they rule on “sensitive places”.

Teddy Nappen 16:14

Do you remember the commemorative for the Heller? The revolver they did.

Evan Nappen 16:19

Yes, I have one.

Teddy Nappen 16:21

I want, whoever is the top AR maker, I want them to do a commemorative to the case when we finally get the constitutionality on the assault weapon ban, and finally getting those removed. That would be awesome. Like, just seeing that. Who do you think would be making that? Page – 5 – of 12

Evan Nappen 16:39

Yeah, I’m sure there’ll be all kinds of guns. Well, you know, that’s funny. You know I have that Smith & Wesson when Heller came out.

Teddy Nappen 16:47

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 16:47

And Smith did a limited run of the 38 J-frame Smith and Wessons, and they are engraved on the side with the Heller decision and scales and all. It’s a pretty cool gun, and they came out with it pretty fast, right after the Heller decision. But I actually got Dick Heller himself, the Heller of the Heller decision, to sign the gun. So, I have a Heller commemorative Smith signed by Heller himself.

Teddy Nappen 17:23

Don’t you have one for McDonald too, as well? I could have sworn there was a commemorative for that also.

Evan Nappen 17:30

Yeah, yeah. I do, yeah. McDonald. But I also have a very collectible commemorative knife, Teddy. It’s a full kitchen knife, and it’s actually signed by Bobbitt. Remember the Bobbitt case? I have a knife that is signed by John Bobbitt there. And what he wrote on the knife, in addition to his name, he wrote “always sleep on your stomach”. Pretty good. Always sleep on your stomach, you know. Signed by Bobbitt. So, it’s a big kitchen butcher-style knife, a big chef’s knife. It’s definitely a great collectible.

Teddy Nappen 18:18

I wanted him to write “Mr. Happy Went Missing” from the Weird Al. Mr. Happy.

Evan Nappen 18:33

But he wrote: always sleep on your stomach. Okay, if anyone could give that advice, I guess it’s him. So, yeah, well, getting these things signed. Well, Dick Heller signed the gun, Bobbit signed the knife, and I’m not.. Forget it. I’m not going, not doing it, not doing it. So, hey, by the way, Teddy, where’s our favorite ranger that we shoot at? Come on.

Teddy Nappen 19:07

Of course it’s We Shoot, obviously.

Evan Nappen 19:09

That’s right, we do. We go there. We have a blast, and so will you. WeShoot is an indoor range right in Lakewood, New Jersey. It’s conveniently right off the Parkway. A beautiful facility, top of the line, modern. A great place. Great training, great pro shop, great people. It’s where we got our certifications for our carry, our CCARE certifications, and other training as well. You need to check out WeShoot, WeShoot. It’s at wewhootusa.com. Their website is really great. They have beautiful photographs, and they pride themselves in their photography. Make sure you also check out the WeShoot girls. They always have fantastic firearms that they are displaying. And there are sales and specials and deals. Page – 6 – of 12

WeShoot is just great. So, check out weshootusa.com. You’ll be glad you did. It’s a superb resource, you know. We/ve got to really use and protect our ranges, especially in New Jersey, where it’s so crowded and it’s tough to find really great places to shoot. But WeShoot is there filling an important need in protecting our rights. What good is having a gun if you can’t shoot it, man? So, check out weshoot usa.com.

Evan Nappen 20:52

Also, I want to shamelessly promote my book on New Jersey gun law, which, by the way, is called New Jersey Gun Law. You can find it at EvanNappen.com. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. It is the guidebook, the key resource to helping you not become a GOFU. I’ve taken great pride in that, and I think you’ll enjoy it, too. Those that have it know its value. It’s designed as your easy-to-use reference to the insanity that is New Jersey gun law. Go to EvanNappen.com. EvanNappen.com. Get your copy today. Hey, Teddy, I know that you have Press Checks, and I think there’s a pretty fascinating Press Check story that you are going to share with us. What is this story? Tell me.

Teddy Nappen 21:58

Well, we got our first from. Again, Press Checks are always free. This is from “Not the Bee.com”, Joel Abbott. (https://notthebee.com/article/babe-wake-up-british-tourists-are-starting-to-appreciate-the-second-amendment-?from_social=twitter) So, everyone’s been seeing the World Cup. I don’t typically follow soccer or anything on that, but you see all the Europeans coming in. I love that video of the Japanese tourist who brought trash bags and picked up their trash after their game.

Evan Nappen 22:25

They’re very conscientious. That’s very, very good.

Teddy Nappen 22:28

I know, as opposed to the Knicks fans who decided to burn down a bus, but whatever.

Evan Nappen 22:34

Hey, listen. Mom would approve of the trash bag thing, you know that.

Teddy Nappen 22:38

Oh, I know.

Evan Nappen 22:40

Even just at our house, if we did that.

Teddy Nappen 22:43

And the recycling. Can’t forget about that.

Evan Nappen 22:44

That, too. Page – 7 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 22:46

But the one thing that seems to be catching on, because you have all the vloggers and people coming to want to experience America as they’re going to see. They’ve been going to gun ranges and to rent a gun places.

Evan Nappen 23:00

I know. Isn’t that great?

Teddy Nappen 23:01

They’re appreciating our Second Amendment.

Evan Nappen 23:03

It’s actually spreading the understanding to these disarmed, oppressed peoples, and they’re suddenly seeing the light. Particularly, we see the UK folks. They’re like, wait a minute. How did we lose this right?

Teddy Nappen 23:20

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 23:20

How did this happen?

Teddy Nappen 23:22

And it’s very interesting. It’s almost like those videos you always see where it’s the liberals going to the range, and they actually like, oh my right, yeah, you see all these people like, why were they’re waiting for, like, wait, you guys can just do this? They’re always shocked and awe from everything. But one in particular, this was a British guy, Spencer Towering. He does videos. We’ve been totally pacified in the U.K. through the removal of our arms, our right to bear arms. It’s caused a big problem for us. Now our Government is basically turning it into an absolute, tyrannical feminine leadership that is gradually eroding our rights, and there’s really not much we can do about it. Well, there’s one thing you can do. You know, just kind of look to the founding of our nation, and then get some ideas. Or they could look to the risings in Scotland, and try not to, you know, go with, try to not to put the Bonnie Prince on the throne. It didn’t work.

Evan Nappen 24:22

You know, the British even went after an IT consultant.

Teddy Nappen 24:28

Correct.

Evan Nappen 24:29

Because he posed with a gun in the U.S. and posted it on LinkedIn. Page – 8 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 24:34

Yep, just for posing with it.

Evan Nappen 24:36

For posint with a shotgun, an 870 shotgun.

Teddy Nappen 24:40

Yep. Thirteen weeks of hell he went through for sharing a photo of something that wasn’t even taken in the U.K. This is why.

Evan Nappen 24:54

This was pointed out by “Not the Bee”. So, “Not the Bee is a pretty cool aggregate on news sources. And this is.

Teddy Nappen 25:06

Frankly, far funnier than the article.

Evan Nappen 25:09

“Not the Bee” is real stuff that you can’t believe is actually true when it is. As opposed to the “Babylon Bee”, which is parody. “Not the Bee” has real stories in it that you think should be fake, but they’re not. It’s like unbelievable. But this one here is not as outrageous, to be honest, because this is what makes it so great about having rights, you know, and why we got to protect them. We see what it’s like for the folks that live in countries that they claim to make believe are free when they’re not. I mean, we’re still fighting for freedom here, but I mean to think that, you know, claim England is free. The U.K. is free? That’s a joke.

Teddy Nappen 26:00

I’ll point it to you right now. The two you always hyped. I’ve got to highlight this to people all the time. Literally, arresting a woman for thought crime.

Evan Nappen 26:09

Right!

Teddy Nappen 26:09

Arresting a young girl for fighting off a pedophile with an ax and a knife. Going after her. Proven, by the way, that was another article that came out where he was in fact trying to go after minors. He had two prior accounts. But let’s just say the Labor Party didn’t want to mention that part. And the final bit, and I saw this one. For every officer, they’ve arrested like 20, done 20 arrests for hate speech online, whichever, whatever they make up. Like it’s they’re done. They are so gone.

Evan Nappen 26:34

It’s a shame, the formerly Great Britain. But maybe this kind of experience of them seeing America and what it’s about. Not just from a slanted media, but from actually coming here and experiencing America. I mean, just in terms of brisket sandwiches that they’re going crazy for. American food. Page – 9 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 27:11

Even that, like just going into Europe. Anyone ever gone to Europe? You turn on the news, and imagine your only news station was CNN and MSNBC. That’s it. Yeah, that is all they have. They have the state-run everything and news networks. There is no alternative voice. There’s no alternative tech. They ban Rumble and other outlets. So, they can just control the media, and this is what it leads to. Just authoritarian states.

Evan Nappen 27:35

It’s crazy. So, I was looking at this, and you also indicated to me about kind of a crazy international story, Teddy,

Teddy Nappen 27:56

Yes. Let’s just say, you know, at times like this, you should buy a holster. This was in Brazil, where a female suspect, when she was stopped by the military police from Goaz, carried out a body search.

Evan Nappen 28:17

Now, this is in Brazil, right?

Teddy Nappen 28:19

In Brazil

Evan Nappen 28:19

In Brazil. And this is an actual story that is from a “legitimate” news source, right? What’s the source?

Teddy Nappen 28:28

Yeah, it’s right from the Daily Star. (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/moment-female-suspect-pulls-loaded-37287603)

Evan Nappen 28:31

Yeah, okay, and they even have video. They’re showing reports. So, this is actually legit. This is not a parody or a joke? What happened here with the woman?

Teddy Nappen 28:42

The officers located the pair, carried out a stop and search. They showed the armed passengers struggling to remove the firearm from inside her “intimate area”. Physically trying to pull out a loaded pistol from her vagina.

Evan Nappen 28:58

And Teddy, this is not small. They show the gun, and it’s the actual firearm, folks. This is the gun, and they even name the gun, a Taurus 92. That is essentially the Beretta M9, you know, but made by Taurus, a Taurus 92. Basically that 15 to 17 shot, depending on the size of your mag, and that you don’t live in New Jersey. A full size Taurus 92. Or also our military carry gun until the SIG replaced it of the Beretta M9. That full size nine. She pulled it out. How did she? Ouch! Page – 10 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 29:51

You know, I don’t even know how that happened. I don’t think Taurus and Victoria Secret should have partnered up for the Victoria concealed.

Evan Nappen 30:02

And I think they mentioned that it got stuck. It was stuck.

Teddy Nappen 30:05

Yes, it was stuck.

Evan Nappen 30:07

It was stuck, and I can imagine why it was stuck, considering the size of a Taurus slash Beretta 92.

Teddy Nappen 30:15

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 30:15

And it was loaded as well.

Teddy Nappen 30:18

What she should have done was got some rem oil, and that would have helped solve it.

Evan Nappen 30:22

Well, you know, New Jersey has a requirement for your holster to have to cover the trigger guard and the frame and all that. Technically, she might actually have been in compliance if she was under New Jersey gun law, given the requirements for a holster. I don’t know.

Teddy Nappen 30:41

Well, it has to cover the majority of the firearm and the trigger. So.

Evan Nappen 30:49

I mean, this was pretty crazy.

Teddy Nappen 30:53

Yeah, pretty crazy.

Evan Nappen 30:54

But it makes sense in Brazil that there would be a Taurus, since they’re made in Brazil. So, those would be a Brazilian gun.

Teddy Nappen 30:56

You know, I’ll give Taurus credit for the gorilla ad campaign that they. Page – 11 – of 12

Evan Nappen 31:06

Well, Taurus makes other guns, like the Judge. You know, the Judge, the Raging Bull. She didn’t do a Raging Bull. At least she didn’t do the Raging Bull. I mean, it’s bad enough with the Taurus 92.

Teddy Nappen 31:21

It might have been easier with a Public Defender, to be honest.

Evan Nappen 31:24

Right. That’s what she’s gonna need now. After putting a Taurus, being caught with a Taurus 92 there carrying, carrying illegally, no less inappropriately. Now, she’s going to need a public defender to defend her possession of a Taurus.

Teddy Nappen 31:43

and a gynecologist.

Evan Nappen 31:46

Uhuh, maybe she could call the consulate. I don’t know what’s going to happen there. That’s a crazy, crazy story. But hey. You know, just think if she had a North American Arms mini revolver or something, that you know, but a Taurus 92. Oh man.

Teddy Nappen 32:05

I love the mindset of like, okay, this is a good idea, right? Just on the impracticality of like, okay, if I’m ever like, you know, the deal goes bad, and I need to draw this quickly.

Evan Nappen 32:25

I don’t know what. Yeah, where? And then if she was hiding it up there, why did she surrender to the police when she was hiding it? If that was hidden, I mean, do they? I don’t think.

Teddy Nappen 32:39

I think at that point she was just looking for the excuse, because it was probably just had enough.

Evan Nappen 32:44

This just has got to go. Here, just take it, take it. Oh boy. Well, Teddy, that is definitely something to consider in the news on carry, carry news, in terms of method. Now, we have the GOFU, which is a Gun Owner Fuck Up. Now, I think this last, the last story might qualify as a GOFU, but we need to bring it down to a little bit more of a commonality of things that often happen, and that we often see. That are mistakes made.

Teddy Nappen 33:27

Too many times.

Evan Nappen 33:28

Too many times. One of the things we want to really be clear as to a GOFU here is the warning shot. Warning shots are basically mythology. You should not be firing warning shots, because the firing of a Page – 12 – of 12

gun is essentially what’s construed as the use of deadly force. If you’re using deadly force, you have got to be justified in using deadly force. So, we do not in any way recommend the warning shot. In New Jersey, the discharge of the firearm without lawful purpose is an automatic virtual per se felony, as Murphy’s new law has declared it essentially. So, you have the discharge law. Then you have the issues of undercutting your own arguments for use of force. If it was a threat that was justified in using deadly force, why are you firing your firearm without using it to stop the deadly force? Where you feel you can fire it as simply a warning, is it that imminent danger, or is it not that imminent? There’s just so many downsides and negatives to warning shots.

Evan Nappen 34:59

Plus where is the round going? There are cases where you hear, “oh, it was a warning shot, and that’s why I hit them. You’re trying to excuse either the bad aim or whatever under some guys, a warning shot, not a good idea. So, make sure you get your training. Make sure you learn the rules on the use of deadly force. It’s critical that you do that. You can really get jammed up if you don’t understand that dynamic. It’s critical, and it is often not intuitive because of how bad these things are shown on television all the time. Television is not a good education source for learning when you can and can’t use deadly force. If we’re talking about made-for-TV dramas and TV shows and movies, and all that, not a good idea to learn your gun law from there.

Evan Nappen 36:04

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 36:14

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E295_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 294-AG Green-lights Red FlagAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 14

Gun Lawyer — Episode 294 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun Lawyer, New Jersey, ERPO, gun confiscation, due process, public awareness campaign, gun safety, Second Amendment, red flag law, wellness check, gun rights, gun violence, civil rights, gun storage, gun laws.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 2, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what have you discovered in your travels?

Teddy Nappen 00:30

Well, first off, you can stop pestering me. I finally watched Project Hail Mary.

Evan Nappen 00:36

I love that movie. It was fun. Didn’t you like it, man?

Teddy Nappen 00:40

I thought it was. I will give it credit for a movie that’s almost three hours long. You stay. You don’t want to like check your phone or anything. You’re actually very engaged. And I was like.

Evan Nappen 00:51

True!

Teddy Nappen 00:51

The last 40 minutes, I’m like, okay, everything’s solved, what’s left for plot? And then they actually made it more interesting.

Evan Nappen 00:59

Yes! Don’t, don’t spoil it for people.

Teddy Nappen 01:01

No, no spoils. Page – 2 – of 14

Evan Nappen 01:02

It’s a good one, and it is a very interesting statement about Government.

Teddy Nappen 01:12

I was thinking also Stoicism.

Evan Nappen 01:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did a great job. I really enjoyed it. So, anyways. I love talking about movies. However, this is Gun Lawyer, man, and we talk about important New Jersey.

Teddy Nappen 01:32

Fine.

Evan Nappen 01:33

And beyond the borders of New Jersey.

Teddy Nappen 01:38

We’ll open with this: the Attorney General’s a jerk.

Evan Nappen 01:42

Wait a minute! Don’t go disparaging our beloved Attorney General. But why are you not happy with what the Attorney General has done?

Teddy Nappen 01:51

Well, I love when they’re advertising, effectively legalized swatting, in this latest article. Right from the Attorney General’s Office. ” Attorney General Davenport, Office of Alternative and Community Responses launches gun safety public awareness campaign”. (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-davenport-office-of-alternative-and-community-responses-launch-gun-safety-public-awareness-campaign/) I want to meet the marketing team that comes up with these titles.

Evan Nappen 02:14

Which always, if it’s Gun Safety Public Awareness Team, let me guess. They’re using their office to promote citizen self-defense so that citizens are no longer victims, but can defend themselves against criminals, right? Isn’t that what they’re promoting? And helping citizens to understand their use of force and self -defense, and complete dedication to the Second Amendment, right? Am I correct?

Teddy Nappen 02:41

I think you forgot this is with New Jersey, but yeah.

Evan Nappen 02:45

Oh, what did they do instead? Tell me. Page – 3 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 02:47

Oh, so from the article that they put out, Attorney General Davenport of the office has launched a multi-year public awareness campaign to raise awareness about the life-saving potential of New Jersey’s Extreme Risk Protection Orders (ERPOs).

Evan Nappen 03:06

Ah, the Red Flag.

Teddy Nappen 03:07

Wow!

Evan Nappen 03:07

So, they believe that it is life saving. Try life destroying! If you’re a gun owner and you get hit with one of these ERPOs, as we talked about on a prior show, simply talking to Chat GBT led to this. Where not only were the guns seized, not only is your house searched, but you’re taken away for a “wellness check”. And with his inability to give a urine sample, they shoved a catheter up his penis. All over the wonderful ERPO situation. Isn’t that great? How that all works out. So, there’s a lot of downside, unless you don’t consider forced catheterization up your penis, a downside. I don’t know. Today you don’t know. But these are the kind of things that can come from ERPOs and wellness checks. It’s just astounding. Astounding.

Teddy Nappen 04:19

What is astounding is I love how they twist it. Just reading the article, you can feel it. I always go back to that line from “Untouchables” – “Let’s do some good.” They actually think this is going to solve problems. Or right here from the Attorney General. ERPOs are a proven tool for preventing tragedies. How do I know? I pulled it out. They didn’t actually say that. We are committed to using all the tools at our disposal.

Evan Nappen 04:52

This is what they put out. But the reality of it is, it’s a tool for disenfranchisement of Second Amendment rights, and it’s a tool of confiscation of guns. It is a tool of gun rights suppression. It is designed for that purpose. There is no due process up front. These are granted ex parte. The person who is served with the ERPO has no clue that it’s coming their way, has no opportunity, before the damage is done to talk or speak or make their case to the judge. This is just gun confiscation in its rawest form with benefits. And the benefits are taking you away for a so-called “wellness check”, while you’re at it, to search and seize giving them the opportunity to review your guns, to take your guns, to search your house, to invade your Fourth Amendment rights as well. All done under this guise.

Evan Nappen 05:40

This is something we in the firm here deal with these all the time, and the public awareness campaign is designed to get more people to jump on this. No matter how weak the claim is. No matter whether it’s for reasons that are unproven. It doesn’t matter! They want these ERPOs, which, when they initially issued, are called TERPOs, Temporary Extremist Protection Orders. Only after the issuance of the TERPO do you finally get a hearing where you get to try to fight to challenge it from becoming a final, Page – 4 – of 14

what we call a FERPO. And if it takes place in Burlington or Bergen County, then you, of course, are getting a BURPO. I’m just kidding about that. They don’t call them BURPOs, but it is a pretty bad, rotten, terrible law. It is the most extreme ERPO law in the country, and it is just rights violation from the get-go.

Teddy Nappen 07:32

Well, also, if you’re going through the article, they’re talking about the public awareness campaign they’re going to be doing. They say the ERPO awareness is leading up to the National Gun Violence Awareness Month in June. I thought June was also Pride Month, but you know they kind of go hand in hand with the recent mass shootings. It’s one of those.

Evan Nappen 07:58

It’s like National Brotherhood Month. Be glad we don’t celebrate it the rest of the year.

Teddy Nappen 08:04

I know. You know what?

Evan Nappen 08:05

That’s the old Tom Lehrer joke.

Teddy Nappen 08:07

You know what? I’m very aware of the gun violence. That’s why people want to be armed to defend themselves, but continue. Then they go on about using like billboards, bus shelters, radio platforms. Oh, by the way, everything will be in Spanish, too. They were very bold in that, and they made it very clear it’ll be in English and Spanish. So, okay.

Evan Nappen 08:30

Well, the propaganda that gets generated out of New Jersey is intense, and it is going to create more and more confiscations and misery for law-abiding gun owners and their gun rights. That’s the reality of what is going on. They have these very cute images on this article. I see where they are going to promote this operation, and it’s like they’re meme articles. Because of an ERPO, they’re still here. They show two people, then they have another one. Because of an ERPO, he’ll graduate in June. Really? Then there’s another one. Learn the facts about ERPO. Stop gun deaths. Need to talk. . . blah blah blah.

Evan Nappen 09:27

Okay, you know what? We could do our own memes here. You know, we could have, because of an ERPO, this person, this law-abiding gun owner, just had their life ruined, just had their home invaded, just had their family heirloom guns seized, just had to go through an expensive court process just to get back to square one. Because of an ERPO, the person was taken in for a completely unnecessary wellness check, and had medical procedures done to them against their will. Because of an ERPO, they just have a big dick pic with a catheter in it, and say, because of an ERPO, I was forced to endure this. How about that for a nice image? You know, this is what reality is when you’re in the practice. You see these laws and what they actually do to people, and what doesn’t get told is what I’m telling you Page – 5 – of 14

now. The actual effect of it. Not this fluff and propaganda and claims being made that are not how we have experienced ERPOs in the practice of law. There’s an extreme risk protection website, Teddy, by the way. (https://www.njoag.gov/erpo/)

Teddy Nappen 10:53

Yeah, they have the link.

Evan Nappen 10:53

It talks about ERPOs, and it has a Q and A in it. Let’s take a look at the questions, the Attorney General’s answers, and what I think are the real answers. “Is ERPO the same as a ‘Red Flag’ law?” It’s very similar to what a lot of people know as Red Flag law that exists in other states, even among states that use the name ERPO. There are some technical legal differences. Be sure any information you get about ERPOs is specific to New Jersey. Yes, the similarity ends with New Jersey not having any due process upfront. It’s not just a Red Flag law. It’s a bright Red, no due process upfront law. Other states that may have Red Flag laws do it where you get due process up front before the order is even issued. Not in New Jersey. So, yeah, it’s different. It’s different in an extremely gun rights suppression manner. “Why are ERPOs needed?” Well, an ERPO is an immediate step that can be taken to stop a violent situation before it starts, by temporarily removing firearms from a person who’s at risk of harming themselves or others.

Evan Nappen 12:10

Yeah, it’s also an immediate step that can be taken to SWAT somebody and an immediate step that can be taken when information is misconstrued. It’s also an immediate step that can be taken without even truly determining whether there is an actual risk of harm to oneself or another, because the one person they’re concerned about never gets an opportunity up front to actually explain whether there is or isn’t such a risk. “Why do people file for ERPOs?” Because they’ve seen warning signs that someone close to them is at high risk of using a firearm to harm themselves or others. Filing a petition for an ERPO provides safety for everyone involved and gives the person in crisis an opportunity to seek help. Really? Well, so-called warning signs, again not evaluated up front, high risk, again not evaluated up front with any input from the person who becomes the victim of this ERPO. Filing a petition for ERPO provides safety for everyone. No, it actually doesn’t provide safety for everyone. In fact, it endangers law-abiding gun owners. There are cases on record, Teddy, about individuals being swatted over false ERPOs, and they end up getting killed by police because they don’t even know what’s going on in this raid. They had no clue, right, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 13:42

It’s one of those things that’s very disgusting, just the very insidious nature of this. It is legalized swatting, and there’s no way about it. Like, you can just make something up, say someone said something or did something, and they’ll hand them out like candy. Then you get your life destroyed, just going through the process. And I love, I love the article. Their whole thing in it, where they’re saying we need to dispel the myths. The whole, yeah, dispel the myths. Page – 6 – of 14

Evan Nappen 14:16

To create an entire myth about what it is. “What’s a temporary ERPO?” A judge can issue a temporary ERPO if they believe the at-risk person is an imminent threat to themselves or others. Isn’t it amazing that a judge can do this, believing the at-risk person is an immediate threat to themselves or others with never speaking to the so-called at risk person. Never talking to them in advance. And a TERPO is in effect until the hearing for a final, which is typically scheduled within 10 days. And let me tell you, yeah, there’s a railroading, after your life has been turned upside down, of the hearing on the final having to take place in 10 days. After all the damage has been done, after your house has been raided, after you’ve been forced into a wellness check, after you’ve had your property seized. And do you think it’s cared for real well when it’s seized? After you’ve had this entire ordeal, then within 10 days of it, you’re supposed to have a hearing. Are you ready for that hearing? You don’t even know what hit you. How are you going to be prepared and do that? It’s railroading you into a FERPO, instead of giving due process up front on the TERPO.

Teddy Nappen 15:37

The article tries to paint it like the court judges may issue them after carefully reviewing the individual circumstances, and prompted by the petition filed by a relative, household member, or law enforcement officer. The ERPO is issued only after several factors are considered. Whether they have been arrested, charged, convicted, disorderly persons, domestically.

Evan Nappen 16:01

One of those factors, Teddy, as we’ve reviewed. One of the factors is has recently acquired a firearm. That’s actually a factor for an ERPO. That you’ve gotten a gun, that means that you got a pistol purchase permit and got a gun, or went to the gun dealer and bought a gun. That’s now an ERPO factor, as a fact to take your gun, is that you just got a gun. It’s literally a factor in the law.

Teddy Nappen 16:27

Well, the article ignores that factor. Gee, I wonder why?

Evan Nappen 16:31

They don’t list all the factors, because they’re so outrageously vague and unbelievable. And again, done ex parte. “What is a final ERPO?” Before a final ERPO is issued, this is all from their Q and A, a person at risk will have a chance to present evidence and testimony to the judge. If the judge believes they’re immediate threat of ERPO, so what does it say? Before the final. That’s the only time you’re going to get your chance is after the TERPO, the temporary order has issued. “How long does a final ERPO last?” It stays in effect until the person who filed the petition or the person at risk asks the judge to end it. If the at-risk person is seeking to end the order, they must prove to the judge they’re no longer a danger to themselves or others. So, the burden of proof switches to the victim of the ERPO. The person whose rights have just been taken away from them and had their life turned upside down. The burden is shifted for them to have to prove, in effect, their innocence. Prove they’re no longer a danger. Go ahead and prove the negative. Good luck with that. Page – 7 – of 14

Evan Nappen 17:47

“What information goes into the petition?” You’ll need to provide specific information about dangerous behavior or threats you’ve witnessed. If the person owns any firearms, provide all information you may know about firearms they own or have access to. So, now you have the ratting out, the giving of the information, the revealing of any firearms, so that they may be confiscated. Backdoor gun confiscation. Let’s have an entire propaganda campaign designed to do this. Even in their Q and A, all the gun information goes. “Does it cost money to file?” No, there’s no filing fee. There’s actually something you can do in Nwe Jersey that they won’t charge you for, and that’s if you aid and abet New Jersey in the seizure of guns in the disenfranchisement of an individual’s gun rights. They won’t charge you for that. Isn’t that nice of them?

Evan Nappen 18:47

“Is the person arrested or taken into custody?” No, but they will eventually be required to appear in court. Ahh, let’s talk about that. Person arrested or taken into custody? Well, when they do the combo with the wellness check, you’re taken in. And they say, if you don’t voluntarily go, we’ll make you go. Oh, we just searched your home for guns, and we found that one of your magazines holds 11 rounds instead of 10. You’re getting arrested. Or any other condition that they want to turn into criminality, you’re going to be arrested and taken into custody. And if there’s any type of other allegations made, you’ll face those charges.

Evan Nappen 19:37

Remember, this isn’t just done in a vacuum. So, it’s extremely misleading to say a person isn’t arrested or taken into custody when very often that’s exactly what happens. We’ve seen it because of the collateral damage that occurs from the TERPO. “Does an ERPO go on a criminal record?” No, it’s a civil matter, not a punitive punishment. You see, they don’t consider taking your guns and taking your gun rights punitive or punishment. No, this is just civil. Its purpose is to give the person in danger of harming themselves or others, an opportunity to address the crisis. You see, this is being done for your own protection. We’re doing this just for you, gun owners. We’re doing it to help you, because we love you so much. It’s not punitive at all.

Evan Nappen 20:34

Except you go into a database that declares you to be an extreme risk. Do you think being in that database is going to help you get a job? Do you think being in the extreme risk database that ERPOs put you in is going to be helpful to you? Do you think that’s going to help you travel, let’s say on an airplane? Do you think it’s going to help you anytime a background check is done on you? So, does it have an actual criminal record? No, because there’s no criminal conviction. So, it would not be a criminal record. But notice it doesn’t say, do you get a record? Because the answer to that misleading way it’s presented is yes. You’re damn right. You will have a record. You will have a record of having an ERPO and being put in a database and on a list of being an extreme risk. But they don’t bother mentioning that in their Q and A.

Teddy Nappen 21:39

Oh, this is what happens. Page – 8 – of 14

Evan Nappen 21:41

Go ahead, Teddy. What?

Teddy Nappen 21:42

Well, what I was going to say is one thing that does point, like jump at the article with me. All this can be made possible from a competitive grant award from the “Byrne State Crisis Intervention Program” (SCIP) Grant which is administrated through the U.S. Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Assistance. (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-davenport-office-of-alternative-and-community-responses-launch-gun-safety-public-awareness-campaign/ – last paragraph) So, the insidious nature of SCIP. Oh, you know what happens whenever you get thrown in, because you think, oh, he may have said he said something like, oh, he’s had some bad thoughts. We need to get him into the crisis intervention unit. He needs to be evaluated. So, the doctors who evaluate you, who think you’re crazy or think you’re extreme, throw you into the nut house as well. That same group is pushing for Red Flag. Amazing!

Evan Nappen 22:27

They are, because it goes together with it. And then it says, “What happens to firearms when an ERPO is approved?” Firearms, ammunition, and license to purchase, own, and carry must be surrendered to law enforcement. What also happens is you get put on the ERPO list. And if you fail to have guns turned in, if you fail to file that order, you can be criminally charged for contempt. Then you become a prohibited person after that to ever possess firearms and ammunition, very similar to being a convicted felon. But notice none of that is explained either. Then it says, “When are firearms returned?” When a judge terminates the order. Well, let me just tell you right now, that’s not in the law. We have cases on this right now. You can go in to court, and you can win a TERPO. But the TERPO was defeated after your guns were seized and you went through all that. There’s nothing in the statute that orders the guns themselves returned. So, if the Attorney General is now saying that firearms are returned when the judge terminates the order, great! Because we have cases right now where this very answer and question I want to explain why it hasn’t happened to our clients. Because it’s not in the law! And fighting to get it back afterwards, after you win the TERPO, where a FERPO is not granted, it’s exactly what a client we had on a couple shows ago. He talked about that very thing, that very problem. They asked, How is ERPO different? Go ahead, Teddy, what?

Teddy Nappen 24:20

Well, I was going to say is the thing that if you kind of go through all this, looking at like the article, what they’re talking about, they are just doing all their best to muddy the waters. Trying to like no, no, no, no, it’s perfectly fine. We’re just going to take the firearms away, and then it won’t be a problem. Then if everything’s calm and the State has deemed you not an extreme risk. What do we mean by that? Well, we’ll determine that from a political judge.

Evan Nappen 24:54

Ask any gun owner that’s gone through this, and they’ll tell you it’s a nightmare. This is designed to create more nightmares for New Jersey gun owners. Here, “Do ERPOs stop violence?” Evidence suggests ERPOs are an effective violence prevention tool, particularly in cases of suicide or mass shootings. Suggests it. They don’t prove it. Instead we have tremendous violation of due process rights Page – 9 – of 14

in this “suggestion” of what people go through. No actual hard evidence that it even accomplishes what it is intended to do. And of course, potential suicide or mass shootings. Well, of course, if someone’s hell bent to kill themselves, last I heard, a gun wasn’t the only way to do it. If the person is determined to engage in criminal acts, a piece of paper will not stop that person. So, who is it really affecting? The law-abiding citizens. They’re the ones who pay the price.

Evan Nappen 26:04

And then last question here, “What happens if the petition for an ERPO gets denied?” Now, notice this is really interesting. The last question is, what happens if ERPO gets denied? It says, if the municipal court denies a petition for a TERPO, the person who filed it can request an immediate hearing in Superior Court. If the Superior Court judge is the one who denied the TERPO or denies the final, the person who filed can appeal to the Appel Division within 45 days of the denial. Notice what they don’t say. What happens if a petition is granted? Do they tell those people that they have a right to appeal? Do they mention the appellate rights of the victim of the ERPO? No, they don’t. They only tell the person who filed the ERPO of their appellate rights.

Evan Nappen 26:58

Well, let me tell you. If you are hit with these, you have appellate rights. You have the right to challenge it and appeal it. They don’t mention that on their website. It’s supposed to be so informative. To cut through the so-called misunderstandings and misinformation out there about ERPOs, but they don’t even tell you about the appellate rights for those that suffer under this non-due process red flag law. New Jersey is probably the most extreme example of ERPO in the country. If not the most extreme, then tied for it. If somebody else is out there that I’m not aware of, that has copied New Jersey’s model.

Teddy Nappen 27:58

I’m just waiting for them to up the ante, where they’re going to combine it with the gun owner gulag, where we’re not only going to arrest you, we’re not just going to ruin your life and take your firearms, we’re going to hold you until trial, and the hearing also takes six months. I’m just, it comes back to the old article that you first wrote, just death penalty to gun owners. They’re at that stage. The left hates us that much, that that’s where they would see the justice, like when it comes to the justice.

Evan Nappen 28:24

They’re never satisfied, and it’s always take, take, take. Then the amount that they want to take, they call a compromise. And then they come back for more “compromise” where they take more. Then they say, well, that’s a great compromise, now we want more. It’s never giving. When do you see rights expanded and respected? When do you see rights restoration to New Jersey gun owners in the broader Second Amendment sense? Only when they’re forced to do it kicking and screaming, such as with carry permits, because of the Bruen decision. They knew they had to issue them, so they created the Carry Killer Law. So, yeah, we’ll issue permits, and we’ll try to make it as impossible as we can for you to actually use the permit by creating 25 “sensitive places” in an absolutely bizarre and confusing matrix. Create all these other requirements upon anybody who chooses to have a carry permit. So, it’s always take rights, take rights, take rights. And even when they’re forced by case law to have to restore freedom, they try to find some other gambit to take freedom yet again. This is the pattern of a gun rights suppression Government. That’s what we’re dealing with here, and that’s what we see. Page – 10 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 30:05

I’m trying to remember. It was a comic artist, like, where he was a free speech advocate, Frank Miller, and there’s a famous comic image that he painted where it was speaking out against the censorship going on in the comic book industry. It’s a picture of a woman, and there are band aids covering her eyes, covering her ears, and then one about to go on her mouth. The hands with the hand blob going, this last one’s for your safety. It just, it’s that insanity twist of believing that this will actually make the community safe. Actually thinking that this will solve the problem when all it does is exacerbate it and good luck to every actual career criminal. If that’s quote unquote red flag, we’re

Evan Nappen 30:57

And that’s if we are giving them the benefit of the doubt. That they’re actually doing it because they really want safety and are simply misguided or wrong. But I don’t believe that after practicing gun law for over 40 years in the state of New Jersey. I believe it’s an agenda. It’s an agenda of gun rights oppression, and its foundation is simply that of being evil and wanting to go after rights. I don’t give them the benefit of the doubt as to their intention. Their intentions are to destroy our rights. If they could repeal the Second Amendment, they would do it. Look at how draconian every gun law is in New Jersey. Look at how they don’t grandfather magazines. Look at how extreme the penalties are. Look at how they created the gun owner gulag. I mean all this that they do. I just don’t believe it’s for some noble cause. It’s more about their hatred of us, and that really is what fires them up. That’s what the Left is all about, hatred, and they hate us. And this is how their hate is translated into these so-called do-gooder laws. It just is a better explanation from my experience in seeing what the gun laws do to good people, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 32:27

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 32:29

But let me tell you, it doesn’t mean that we can’t have guns, that we can’t enjoy our guns. We can still keep fighting, and we don’t want to give up. We’re making progress, even though New Jersey is the toughest environment. And this is where it’s very important that you have a range to go to, and the range where Teddy and I shoot is WeShoot. WeShoot is in Lakewood. They’re a great indoor range. They have great training and a great pro shop. You can get your certification you need, your CCARE for your carry. It’s really just a great place. WeShoot has some pretty cool stuff they’re offering in June. Here they have a Smith & Wesson Performance Center Bodyguard 2.0 Carry Comp with blue titanium finish. It is a stunning evolution of the Bodyguard platform, a very popular platform. It features all these performance center enhancements with an integrated compensator and that really cool blue titanium finish. So, check it out. I think you really dig that bodyguard. They also have a Sig Sauer P211 Comp GTO. Now, this is Sigs latest high performance masterpiece. This gun blends race gun speed with premium craftsmanship, and it just takes it to another level. They also have Henry Big Boy Steel X. Now, the Henry Big Boy is a modern lever action. It’s a powerhouse with a threaded barrel, and that’s okay. On a lever action, you can have a threaded barrel on your lever action, side loading gate, and rugged steel construction, proving that tradition and innovation can ride side by side, and so check out those. Page – 11 – of 14

Evan Nappen 34:29

By the way, Molly Friedman is joins “The Many Faces of 2A”, and she’s reminding us that the Second Amendment belongs to every American from all walks of life. WeShoot is running some great June promotions beyond those really cool guns. There’s 25% off all heritage firearms, $200 off a family membership, 10% off all new firearms, 15% off all used firearms, and 15% off private lessons. So, this is great. Get down to WeShoot. WeShoot is in Lakewood. Go to weshootusa.com, weshootusa.com, weshootusa.com. Check out their website, beautiful photography. Also, pay a visit there in Lakewood, you’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 35:27

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, and explains what you need to know about New Jersey gun law. It’s used by well, everybody, that wants to know about New Jersey gun law. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today, so you can hopefully not become a GOFU, because New Jersey loves to make GOFUs. Teddy, what else do you have that you may have discovered in your travels?

Teddy Nappen 36:05

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. One of the things that is, again, we always want to do our opposition research to see what they’re currently the gun rights oppressionists are pushing or crying about. If we go to our good friends at TheTrace.org, they put out an article. “Trump’s Justice Department Is Suing Cities and States to Dismantle Gun Laws. (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/06/trump-doj-civil-rights-2a-local-gun-laws/) So, again, this is where we always have to make.

Evan Nappen 36:41

Make sure our listeners know that The Trace is Bloomberg’s mouthpiece, the anti-gun Bloomberg mouthpiece. So, they’re oppo research for sure. So, what do they say?

Teddy Nappen 36:55

Yeah. So, they’re whining about the fact that they no longer have the strong arm of the United States government to go after our rights. Instead, oh my god, the Civil Rights Division is fighting for the Second Amendment.

Evan Nappen 37:11

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You’re telling me that the Civil Rights Division of the US government is actually fighting for the Constitution?

Teddy Nappen 37:20

I know. Amazing.

Evan Nappen 37:21

When did that happen? Page – 12 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 37:24

Well, apparently, and this was a big shocker, even to The Trace, where they even talk about the article. I love how there’s this. This department was used for fighting civil rights discrimination for black voting and school segregations. It has never been a focus on gun rights, said former attorney of the division, who focused on red lines, which can’t wait to hear all that wonderful things that went on with redlining.

Evan Nappen 37:54

Well, so what? I mean, the Second Amendment is also a constitutional right and a civil right, and they absolutely should be protecting all civil rights. They particularly should not be going against any civil right. So, under Biden and prior administrations, they weaponized these agencies to actually go against Second Amendment rights. And now the agencies are actually doing their job and enforcing Second Amendment rights, and The Trace apparently can’t stand it. Plus, they’ve lost so much money that they used to get from the taxpayer. I mean, this is the effects of an election having consequences, and it’s President Trump and his administration that are making these great changes. You see it taking place here, and they’re upset about it.

Teddy Nappen 38:49

And this is for, like, any every time I hear the black pillars go, like, he’s not doing enough for the Second Amendment, are you kidding me? Having the Civil Rights Division fighting all of these blue on-on strongholds, fighting for our rights, taking down. This is how we lost our rights through salami tactics. This is how it piece by piece, sure enough. And I love this timeline, mind you, of the Spamberg together talk. Actually, mentioned this in the trace arc about Spanberg signing the assault weapon ban. The Assistant Attorney General Dylan posts on X, see you in court. Imagine having an Assistant Attorney General in your Government saying we’re going to fight to defend your rights. When was that ever in any administration?

Evan Nappen 39:41

Take on the state that’s stomping on Second Amendment rights. But, Teddy, you mentioned the black pillars. Just so our listeners know, what does that term mean? The black pillars. It’s not about race at all. What does that term mean?

Teddy Nappen 39:56

They’re the horseshoe right. They’re the ones arguing that Donald Trump hasn’t done enough. He hasn’t met any of his promises. And look, no one is perfect. No one can. He is not a king. He can’t just snap his fingers and say, all right, we’re going to send in all the National Guard and point the guns at all the governors and force them to sign bills recognizing the Second Amendment. Like that’s not how that works. It’s about fighting in the system. Going after these policies state by state through the courts, because believe me, they’ve had all their politically appointed judges. I mean, they just did an Executive Order. He did an Executive Order stopping the massive funding to the H1b allowing them to get houses. A judge stopped that through a judge blocking, blocking. Page – 13 – of 14

Evan Nappen 40:49

The activist judges are always causing him problems, and he has to go to higher levels to overturn. We see it every time. They are the appointees, normally from the prior administrations, and this is where Trump’s breaking the mold of the old government ways. And these judges can’t believe that somebody would actually have the balls to do that, and yet he does. Hey Teddy, I want to mention about this week’s GOFU. It’s very important. As you know, GOFUs are Gun Owner Fuck Ups, and we want to make sure that our listeners learn these expensive lessons for free that others have learned. I’m going to have you tell us what you think is a good GOFU for this week for us to discuss.

Teddy Nappen 41:48

So, this is something that I’ve been seeing with all the primaries coming up. I always like to imagine all the Democrat candidates just get handed the talking points, like it’s a sheet, like, okay. What gun control thing are we pushing for? For some reason, they’ve all dragged out the “safe storage” as the next big dog whistle of an issue that they’re trying to make relevant. Safe storage, we need to push for it. It was Tallarico, you know, the vegan. Whatever. This guy is are moron, but he pushes for “safe storage” laws requiring safe storage of firearms to keep everyone safe.

Evan Nappen 42:30

Now, under Heller, you’re not required to lock up your safety. Heller addressed that in the original decision, but New Jersey does have a law that says you cannot allow a minor to access a loaded firearm. So, when it comes to minors accessing your guns, New Jersey also makes transfer laws, so that you can’t transfer temporarily a firearm, even your spouse or family member, unless you’re at the range or while hunting. There are issues with transfers, and there are issues that have to do with storage. But what they’re looking to do here is create what is mandatory storage requirements, so that, you know, while someone’s breaking into your home, you just got to ask the hot home invader, you know, that’s doing a hot robbery. Just give me a second, so I can get my gun out of the safe, okay? I’ll be right with you while they’re going to rape and kill your family. So, this is a problem.

Evan Nappen 43:42

But the GOFU component, particularly in New Jersey, is making sure that you don’t have unauthorized parties access your firearm. You never let a minor access a loaded firearm unless it’s where you’re within an exemption. Where they’re under your direct supervision, but you know, just leaving it at home unlocked, where a minor can access it, you’ve got criminal potential problems there. And then on storage of your firearm, under the Carry Killer law, you’ve got to make sure that if you’re going to use that exemption, that your gun is unloaded and locked. You know, secured in that manner. Otherwise, you can get charged for improper storage of your firearm in violation of the Carry Killer law and sensitive places.

Evan Nappen 44:43

These are the areas where storage in New Jersey takes on a legal component, where you can end up with a GOFU. But what you’re talking about is also very important, because it’s another foot in the door by the antis to try to abuse the storage laws to disenfranchise and take away gun rights. New Jersey has done that to a certain degree here in the Carry Killer law, and some of the other laws that they put forward about having to secure firearms. It’s designed to create disenfranchisement of Second Page – 14 – of 14

Amendment rights, arrests, and even at minimum taking away gun licenses over the use of these rules that they again put forward in the name of public safety and do it even contrary at times to the decision in Heller.

Evan Nappen 45:48

Hey, this is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen, reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 45:59

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E294_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 293-Guest Firearms Attorney Greg MillerAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPodcast Transcript UnavailableDownloadable PDF TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 292- Your Gun is in the MailAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 16

Gun Lawyer — Episode 292 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun Lawyer, Second Amendment, Marxism, useful idiots, US Postal Service, handgun shipping, NFA silencers, firearm regulations, logical fallacies, self-defense, gun scams, dog safety, firearm training, New Jersey gun law, gun rights.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy Bear, what’s going on, man?

Teddy Nappen 00:28

Well, I can’t believe you outed my middle name. Just kidding. It’s something where I don’t know this. Dad, do you remember growing up, and you saw, like, did you ever listen to Rage Against the Machine?

Evan Nappen 00:42

Yeah, I actually will admit to that.

Teddy Nappen 00:45

Yeah, do you remember that shirt where it literally has the picture of Che Guevara?

Evan Nappen 00:50

Yeah. Well, I have one of those shirts, except my Che Guevara shirt has him wearing Mickey Mouse ears. So, I call him Mickey Che, and I thought Mickey Che was just hilarious.

Teddy Nappen 01:02

Yeah, I think it’s funnier because of what if I was.. I just learned like more about who this individual was.

Evan Nappen 01:11

Che Guevara? Page – 2 – of 16 Page – 3 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 01:14

I love how the Left tote him as their revolutionary hero. This guy put gays and Catholics in concentration camps. He tried to purify the Spanish race. And in details describing again, like trying to talk about black people, trying to remove them from society. He personally executed 100 people.

Evan Nappen 01:38

He’s actually completely aligned with the progressive Left, if you really think about it.

Teddy Nappen 01:43

True.

Evan Nappen 01:44

I mean, the reality of what the Left does, you know. They are the kings of hypocrites. They are masters of double think. They have one goal and that is to destroy America. I mean, that’s their entire agenda. If you think about everything, they’re for, and every single item they are for harms our country in some way. Everything is harmful, and this is what they’re all about.

Teddy Nappen 02:23

I think there is a good, I think the best way to think of it, and Crowder from Louder with Crowder gives the best line. They are Marxist because you see them take the most insane stances, like queers for Palestine. They’re for funding the war in Ukraine, but not for dealing with Iran. They take these crazy stances, which just looking at it, just from like it would make no sense, except from the eyes of a Marxist. Where in Marxism, in go right to the book, “The Communist Manifesto”, you have to define your enemy, oppressor and oppressee. No matter the individual, no matter the group, no matter the stance you take. You could be the most hateful group against gays, but if you are the oppressed, if you are the underdog, you are the good guy in their ideology. That is how screwed up it is, and they will take whatever political stance to achieve power for the sake of Marxism.

Evan Nappen 03:18

Yeah, they are the useful idiots for the Marxists, for those that want to destroy America. They’re the useful idiots. And by the way, the only redeeming factor at all to their entire agenda of Marxism is that if they ever were to succeed, they’re the first ones that will get killed. They’re the ones that the Marxists will then kill when they don’t need them anymore, and that is exactly the playbook of the Marxist takeovers.

Teddy Nappen 03:54

Cut to Iran with the students, which are all Islamo communists who took over. By the way, when the Iranian regime took over, guess who they executed first? The communists.

Evan Nappen 04:05

Well, it’s the playbook every time. They’re just useful idiots until they’re no longer useful, and then they’re dead idiots. Page – 4 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 04:16

And then what is it, the old phrase. You can vote your way into communism, but you have to shoot your way out.

Evan Nappen 04:21

That’s it. That’s it. So, luckily, we are exposing, you know, the truth is out there, and this political battle for the future of our country is clear and normal America gets it. I really believe they do. And the extremists on the Left, of course, are the worst when it comes to our Second Amendment rights. They’re not going to be in a general sense successful. Now they’re able to have pockets where you see their policies destroy cities, and you can watch the destruction of these cities taking place under their policies. But that’s just examples being set to the rest of America, what we never want to happen broadly in the country.

Teddy Nappen 05:26

Yeah, and speaking of Marxism, as I always, again, we always have to check on the Left of what they’re currently whining and crying about. So,

Evan Nappen 05:37

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 05:38

Our favorite, our favorite fans at The Trace. We check out their latest article. “People might soon be able to ship handguns through the mail.” (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/05/usps-handgun-mailing-ban-shipping-rule/) That was the article.

Evan Nappen 05:38

Oh my G-d! Everyone clutch your pearls.

Teddy Nappen 05:40

Oh my G-d. Jennifer Mascia writes this whole article where the U.S. Postal Service is set to lift a century-old ban, and experts warn of the consequences. I love the term “experts”.

Evan Nappen 06:13

Experts warn the consequences. Right now you can ship via FedEx. You can ship UPS. Oh, but somehow if we allow shipping via the U.S. Postal Service, oh, well, now it’s a threat to our safety, our country, everything. You know, it’s just, the sky is falling because of that.

Teddy Nappen 06:38

Yeah, and I love how they’re saying, the rule would allow handguns to be shipped through the mail, bypassing a longstanding law prohibiting such practice.

Evan Nappen 06:51

Well, you know, I guess they’re not aware that currently you can buy NFA silencers by having them shipped to your door. Silencers are allowed to be sold in this manner, as long as it’s a dealer in the Page – 5 – of 16

state that is doing the shipping. Now, this is the model that is so interesting with Silencer Central, for example. You can buy a NFA silencer online at Silencer Central. (https://www.silencercentral.com/) You can do your NFA forms. They have a great interface where you do the interface. It interfaces you to e-forms, the federal government’s forms for NFA. There’s no tax on suppressors anymore because of the Big Beautiful Bill. Once you get the approval, then they ship from Silencer Central, which I believe is in South Dakota. I believe that is where their headquarters are. That is then sent to their local dealer network that they have already set up, and that’s who ships the suppressor direct to your door. Now, of course, if you live in the DPRNJ, you cannot buy a suppressor because the state law bans them. But in well over 40 some states that respect the Second Amendment, you’re able to do this.

Evan Nappen 08:38

So, this model that they have, which is computerized and set up well, is the groundwork now being laid in the federal government for this to apply to guns. And by opening up the postal service to allow the shipping of handguns, it will allow yet another source for shipping of guns via the post office. And the ATF 34 new regs that they’re proposing is to have computerized the 4473 forms just like the NFA forms are computerized. So, you’ll have e-forms that you can do for that. I’m sure companies will set up an interface in the same way they have an interface set up to ease the process for suppressors. And then even if, for example, Silencer Central were to use their existing network, you could buy the gun of your choice online, and then it will be sent through their network. It will be shipped directly to your door. With the removal of the ban on shipping handguns in the post office, it could even come via the U.S. Post Office right to your door.

Evan Nappen 09:54

So, we’re modernizing the business trade for firearms and making it so that we’re getting back to our pre ’68, pre 1968, ability to have mail order guns, and this is great. Especially for folks that have limited ability to get to a dealer. You know, not everybody lives close to an FFL, but everybody gets their mail delivered in some way. So, this will make the availability of firearms that much more easier for individuals to acquire guns. Of course, that’s what those that are the oppressors of our gun rights don’t want to do. They want everything they can come up with that can somehow be a burden on the exercise of our rights to exist. So, they fight everything and anything that in any way makes it easier.

Teddy Nappen 11:04

This is even funnier because you could still ship your AR-15.

Evan Nappen 11:10

Well, right, long arms are fine, even by the mail and by in-state dealers already. And, you know, although the law in 1927 about concealable weapons can’t be shipped, you know, concealable, they’d be mainly handguns, sawed off shotguns, etc. Concealable weapons. Long arms still could be, and it wasn’t until the ’68 Gun Control Act that the dealer network essentially got established and requirements for having to have the in-state dealer only for handgun transfers. So, you cannot buy a handgun except in a state where you’re a resident. You can buy a long arm in a state where you’re not a resident, as long as that dealer obeys the law of the home state and the resident state. So, as long as both jurisdictions’ laws are followed, long arm sales can occur right over the counter or at a gun show, etc. but not with handguns. This will dramatically change that for the better. We’ll be able to ship Page – 6 – of 16

handguns, and it’ll help establish these dealer networks to almost make irrelevant the restriction over having to have an in-state dealer on the transfer when it can easily just be shipped. So, that will be a great thing. Another improvement, thanks to President Trump and his administration on addressing the trade, the business model and trade in firearms.

Teddy Nappen 13:22

It always makes me laugh from reading this article. The expert that they get, Robert Spitzer.

Evan Nappen 13:23

Yeah, he’s a known quantity.

Teddy Nappen 13:28

He’s written the Politics of Gun Control, and he writes this entire book making the claim that this is the time to push for gun control.

Evan Nappen 13:46

Oh yeah, now.

Teddy Nappen 13:48

He wrote an entire book trying to make the argument that the NRA is weak, and, and, and we’ve had such great strides in the anti-gun movement that we need to push for, and it’s yeah.

Evan Nappen 14:04

Well, the NRA has been weakened due to all the internal strife, that is true. But the gun rights movement is not just the NRA. The NRA is important. The NRA does good work. The NRA has unfortunately had its internal problems that they’re finally getting beyond. However, we have the GOA (Gun Owners of America) out there doing great things. We have Firearm Policy Coalition, FPC. They’re doing great work litigating and such. We have Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and the Second Amendment Foundation. We have many other groups that are taking up the fight and many, many state groups that are also engaging. So, simply saying this is great because the NRA has been weakened hardly paints the picture.

Evan Nappen 15:18

Then, of course, we have the most important aspect of why this is absolutely probably the worst time ever, and that has to do with President Trump. His dedication to the Second Amendment, and his administration with the appointment of the new ATF director, who is moving on President Trump’s Executive Order to look at all the regulations and gun laws, and to change the way America, the federal government itself, does business. To the degree of cutting the funding that was going to the gun rights oppressive groups, which they’re still. Talk about weakened. What’s really been weakened is the other side over the cutting of the monies to them that was taxpayer dollars. Page – 7 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 16:13

The other factor is, Dad, that they blew their entire control in COVID, where people were like, “Oh man, I’m in my home, I need to defend it”. I need to get a firearm. And currently, right now, all the Leftists are buying guns in droves, and they’re getting denied. Like, why can’t I own a firearm?

Evan Nappen 16:37

They’re buying guns in droves? Where did they get these cars from the 1930s to go by guns with?

Teddy Nappen 16:44

Nice. But it’s literally the most like weakest issue you could ever push for. Now, they still make, they still get their talking heads and all the others out there, but the vast majority at this point, like, are pro, and you can have your spurts of mass shootings, but it always comes back to, oh, who was the shooter? Oh, it was a transgender woman who thinks he was a man or some other mentally deranged individual. Oh, we can’t talk about that shooting. And it gets just stomped over and over and over again. It’s ridiculous. Just going back to the article here, the whole argument from Spitzer.

Evan Nappen 17:26

Well, mental health is an issue.

Teddy Nappen 17:28

Yeah. This college professor makes a logical fallacy argument against the rule change. He says handguns can be transported legally across state lines now, and it would be, and quite frankly, you could just drive your car and use your car to transport. Why would you need to mail anything?

Evan Nappen 17:49

First of all, you can’t do that very thing. You cannot cross state lines as a non-resident and buy a handgun in another state. You have to be a resident of the state to purchase a handgun. Now, you can be, arguably, a dual resident if you reside in the other state at the time, either on the weekends or the summer months. You have property and you’re residing there. Then dual residency recognition is there. But if you’re not, if you’re just on vacation, or if you think you can just leave your resident state, go to another state, and buy a handgun legally, you can’t. So, that’s not legally true.

Teddy Nappen 18:35

I think he was also referring to transporting, because the idea was. The other thing they were making the point of the argument was like you can ship your gun to yourself as well. One of the things that they were talking about, as one of the points for this. But here’s the key to the, what he’s making, he made a logical fallacy. It’s called a false dilemma or appeal to the alternative, where you give two choices where one exists. Therefore by that makes the other one is may makes false or true. Even though just because that exists, just because you are transporting a firearm, that doesn’t mean this negates the ability where you shouldn’t be able to mail. It’s a logical fallacy, and this is someone who’s supposed to be this politically smart.

Evan Nappen 19:24

Similar to the Mott and Bailey. Similar. Page – 8 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 19:26

Yeah. Well, that’s why. Well, that’s the premise of most logical fallacies. You equate to something to make your argument seem reasonable when it’s not true. And this is why logical fallacies exist. You’re using them in debates. But here the Left can only use logical fallacies when making their arguments, because they have to appeal to emotion.

Evan Nappen 19:47

Right! Speaking of logical fallacy, once you get into an argument with them and you’re destroying them, then, of course, their final, their last resort is, of course, an ad hominem attack.

Teddy Nappen 19:58

Well, that goes back to. I Learned.

Evan Nappen 20:00

Right.

Teddy Nappen 20:01

I learned this term, just going to it. I think it’s called Godwin’s Law, where it’s the premise where basically everyone would keep equating to a political argument where someone would just say, oh yeah, well, that’s Hitler talk, or say someone is like being a Nazi or being like a fascist. Godwin’s Law is, if that get.

Evan Nappen 20:23

Wait, and throw in pedo, somehow

Teddy Nappen 20:25

pedophile,

Evan Nappen 20:26

to your pedophile,

Teddy Nappen 20:27

pedophile,

Evan Nappen 20:28

I don’t,

Teddy Nappen 20:29

Yeah. So, actually engaging with the subject, when you throw in that term, you have therefore won the argument, because they’ve now just resorted to the tactic of the idea. If the conversation eventually leads to Hitler, you’ve won the debate because they were right to that tactic. And I love he did this, though, because he was Left wing, where he was trying to make the argument about trying to be pro gun control, where you’re equating this to fascist, and then he tried to carve out exceptions. Well, if it Page – 9 – of 16

actually is showing real signs of fascism, then it’s okay. But it’s just the level, like, really? Yeah, you carve out. Rules for thee, not for me, obviously, so.

Evan Nappen 21:13

It also goes back to their double think, and all that. I mean, it’s so Orwellian, man. The Left just lives the Orwellian dream here, man, with what they do. Every day we are fascinated by their shenanigans. It’s nuts. So, that is fascinating. Hopefully, as we move ahead here, we’re seeing all kinds of dramatic pro Second Amendment rights changes. Teddy, you said you had something else you wanted to share. I was wondering what that was.

Teddy Nappen 21:57

This was probably from what is a lot of people in talking about is the Chud The Builder story, where he was a.

Evan Nappen 22:07

Chud? He’s a chud?

Teddy Nappen 22:09

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 22:10

A chud is a stupid, ugly person, I think, right?

Teddy Nappen 22:15

A self-given name, so, whatever.

Evan Nappen 22:18

So, he’s calling himself a Chud?

Teddy Nappen 22:20

Yes, that was his like tagline, and.

Evan Nappen 22:23

Wow. He doesn’t have high self-esteem, if you’re calling yourself a Chud.

Teddy Nappen 22:29

Yeah, there’s like, there’s all different, there’s so much stuff out there on the internet.

Evan Nappen 22:34

So, what did Mr. Chud do?

Teddy Nappen 22:37

Yeah, so he was a streamer. He would go around to different people. He’s a rage baiter, where he tried to say, like, you know, he’d say the N word to, like, go up to black people. Page – 10 – of 16

(https://www.soapcentral.com/entertainment/joshua-fox-victim-chud-the-builder-comes-scrutiny-alleged-past-crimes-emerge)

Evan Nappen 22:48

A rage baiter?

Teddy Nappen 22:49

Yeah, where he tries to get a rise out of people, which.

Evan Nappen 22:51

Wait a minute. I understand he’s very, very skilled at that. As a matter of fact, don’t they consider him a master at that?

Teddy Nappen 22:59

I would say so.

Evan Nappen 23:00

Cause that would make him a masturbator.

Teddy Nappen 23:03

Yep, he certainly is.

Teddy Nappen 23:04

Okay. But what did this guy do?

Teddy Nappen 23:07

Well, he went over, and he was, and again, we don’t have all the facts yet on this. It’s still coming out. But the basic summary is that he was saying the N word, and you know, making all the different jokes and going up to people. And then one guy came over and punched him, attacked him over that. Then he drew his gun on him and fired. There was a scuffle where he ended up shooting himself, along with the attacker.

Evan Nappen 23:37

Holy cow. Well, okay, there’s a lot to unpack there, and we don’t have all the facts. But basically fighting words. So, if he’s approaching somebody and using what we might even generously call fighting words, or words to trigger, how’s that? This person. That still is not generally a basis where you can use force. So, the person who he may be offending is not necessarily justified in using force. But if he raised the stakes, the victim of this guy’s race baiting, raised the stakes to a physical assault, but no weapon, that still doesn’t rise necessarily to the Chud using deadly force. But, again, we don’t know all the facts. Fighting words themselves are not normally a good justification for use of force either way. And then if his response was disproportionate to what occurred, and plus he’s also, Chud there, is also treading in the bad area of “don’t be the instigator”. Don’t be the troublemaker. Don’t be the guy who started it. And that already is a strike against him for being that guy. So, this sounds like not a really smart person doing smart things. Page – 11 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 25:17

Yeah, and I will say, just from the quote, they’re also saying, again, unconfirmed, that the guy, the “victim” was stalking him because he was streaming and wanted to go there. So, that could be a factor because this individual was whatever.

Evan Nappen 25:34

Maybe he was a stalker? I don’t know.

Teddy Nappen 25:36

Yeah, we don’t have all the facts.

Evan Nappen 25:38

You see, when dealing with self-defense, it becomes very fact-specific. It really does. Those facts come together, and the reasonableness of your actions – were you reasonably in fear? Was it a reasonable fear? Was it proportionate and reasonable, etc.? All that is what the jury is going to have to believe and understand and agree with. So, you better be able to convince 12 people, who aren’t smart enough to avoid jury duty, that you were extremely reasonable in what you did.

Teddy Nappen 26:24

Under criminal procedure, though, would this be allowed to come out in the court? Where the “victim”, Joshua Fox, had a large rap sheet. He tried to set his house on fire with an aerosol can and a lighter. And when his wife tried to try to stop him, he tried to stab her with a screwdriver.

Evan Nappen 26:41

It’s going to come down to a lot of the rules on what’s admissible, evidentiary. What can be demonstrated under what’s called “prior acts”. These are all important legal issues that the court will have to determine.

Teddy Nappen 26:57

Multiple aggravated assaults, by the way. You know, DUIs.

Evan Nappen 27:03

And maybe to what degree is there an awareness of the parties, of the background of the person. But these are all going to be things that will be in consideration.

Teddy Nappen 27:15

It also kind of upsets me, though, Dad, is reverse the races, and what happens?

Evan Nappen 27:21

Well, we all know what happens in our society, don’t we?

Teddy Nappen 27:26

Yeah, and that’s Page – 12 – of 16

Evan Nappen 27:28

It’s apparently a one-way street. Just ask that woman who was.

Teddy Nappen 27:36

Arena.

Evan Nappen 27:37

Yeah, that was her.

Teddy Nappen 27:38

You had a guy who was released nine times, gets on a subway station, stabs her, and then says to the camera, I got that whitey. I got that whitey. It’s disgusting. As they’re taking down the mural of her, by the way, because we don’t want to show offense. But why is it that it’s conditioned to say one word, how is that justified to be okay? We’re gonna beat the crap out of you, and also probably kill you over that word. That is the disgusting part. This goes beyond Chud The Builder. This goes to an issue. What was that documentary, the N word? Like, it broke down the utter insanity that has been created around that word to the point right now.

Evan Nappen 28:24

It’s done on purpose, and you’re seeing, though, the demise in a way of that entire reverse discrimination. The entire thing that’s been placed on us as a society. It’s being rejected because the other side took it too far. I mean, once you start saying that math is racist, you’re losing people that are otherwise very supportive.

Teddy Nappen 28:55

Also working out of.

Evan Nappen 28:56

The original cause of having what Dr. King put out there, as it’s about your character, right? The content of your character, not the color of your skin. And that’s something that just about every normal American can embrace. We take each person as an individual, and we look at who they are in their character. When you start creating these groups that you either want to attack or groups that you just only want to help to the detriment of another group, then you’re going into what Americans viscerally know is racist, whichever way you’re going with it. It becomes racist, because racism really boils down to distinguishing based on race. You’re distinguishing based on race, and how that distinguishing takes place is where you can see unfairness coming from both sides. Americans are generally fair people. We don’t want unfairness. We want equal opportunity, but not equity. There’s a difference, not equity.

Teddy Nappen 30:14

Yeah, that’s the problem. Page – 13 – of 16

Evan Nappen 30:15

Equality is something we can all believe in, because it’s fundamental to our existence. All men are created equal. We can all accept that we’re all created equal, and then we all should have equal opportunity. But once that equal is no longer equal, then people sense the unfairness and the discrimination, whichever way that discrimination is cutting, and that’s what you see.

Evan Nappen 30:45

Hey, Teddy, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot, the place you and I love to go. We love to shoot there. It is a great range in Lakewood, New Jersey, conveniently located right off the Parkway. They have top deals, great specials all the time. They have a fantastic range, a state-of-the-art range, and the training there is second to none. You can get your certification for getting your New Jersey carry. Hey, you and I both got ours, and so did Brother Lou. He got his there, too. Lots and lots of folks we know have successfully gotten their training and certifications from WeShoot. WeShoot has a great website. You should really check it out. Go to weshootusa.com. Please go to WeShoot. You will love it. You’ll be glad you did. It is one of our favorite places, and you know ranges are important to support because they are a resource, a limited resource in the DPRNJ. WeShoot is first rate. So, check out weshootusa.com. Pay them a visit, and join as a member. Take advantage of this great resource for the exercise of your Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 32:21

Let me also shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of Jersey gun law. It will help guide you through the insane matrix of New Jersey gun laws so that you don’t become a GOFU. That is my mission in life, to educate and help our brothers and sisters that want to be and remain law-abiding gun owners, even in tough environments, such as the DPRNJ. That’s why the book’s there. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 33:03

Teddy, I want to talk about a double header GOFU. We’re going to do two today. We’re going to do two.

Teddy Nappen 33:14

A binary GOFU?

Evan Nappen 33:16

Well, actually, it’s going to be two separate GOFUs. One is a bona fide GOFU that you need to know about, and the other, they’re both bona fide GOFUs, but one we’re gonna call a DOGFU, and you’ll see why. We’ll save the DOGFU for a little later. Let me tell you about this actual GOFU. So, this is an individual who is new to guns. Now, I think many of my listeners are experienced with firearms, but you may be new to guns, which is fine. I welcome you on board, and as a listener. Everybody’s got to start at some point, where you learn, and your best way is to go to a dealer. I would highly recommend WeShoot for a first timer. They will equip you, train you, and you’ll learn right from the start the right way to do things. Page – 14 – of 16

Evan Nappen 34:19

But in this case, this individual didn’t know much about guns. He actually purchased a handgun via Facebook. Now, first of all, I didn’t even think Facebook allows the sale of firearms, but somehow, it must have come up on Marketplace or something. He thought this was a good deal. It was a Gen 5 Glock 20 with a number of magazines and a couple hundred rounds. It’s supposedly a private seller, and all this, and you know, it would still be going through, arguably, a dealer. It’s not unlawful to buy online, like if you go through Gun Broker or other sources. But it has to go dealer to dealer, and you need the permits. You have to do all that. This person, being new to this, wasn’t trying to avoid that. In fact, he anticipated they would be doing that, but thought, here’s a great way to get a gun. He paid for this gun but did not receive it. Instead, as I discover the story, I find out that the person tells me that the gun was shipped, the gun was shipped to a freight company.

Evan Nappen 35:45

Now, folks, we’re talking today about shipping, about U.S. mail, about all that. If a gun is being sent, a gun is not sent via a freight company. I mean, that would be highly unusual. A gun normally gets sent UPS, FedEx, you know, the standard carriers like that, and it gets sent to the dealer. Well, this person is told by the person who they already paid for this Glock, which was, you know, $500, so that’s a great deal. It’s a phenomenal deal for Gen 5 Glock 20, right? So, immediately you need to wonder, why is it such a good deal? Oh, well, the freight company has the gun, but the freight company can’t deliver it unless you pay certain monies. Then they milk this person along to keep paying monies and claiming certain paperwork and all kinds of things have to be done before it goes to a dealer. Well, that’s ridiculous. It’s the dealer who’s going to do the paperwork. They just are the carrier, if they are even for real. Of course, here it isn’t.

Evan Nappen 36:52

So, I asked, how much money have you paid to this freight company to sort this out? Have they been telling you? Two thousand dollars to the freight company already. And now they want to refund. Oh, they’ll gladly refund. But before they send the refund, he has to pay more money, like another $500 right? Okay, how was this paid for? Oh, Bitcoin, of course. Do you have an address for this company? No, it was just a phone number and communication over WhatsApp. Oh geez. I mean every flag you can imagine. And look, I’m not here to be mean. I’m not here to mock anybody. These people are con artists. They’re out there. The scammers are out there. There’s a reason they’re called con men, because they’re known as confidence men. They gain your confidence, and you have to recognize this.

Evan Nappen 37:53

The GOFU is falling for the scam. The bottom line is, you know, don’t send them another penny. Report the theft, and you know it’s highly unlikely you’re ever going to recover a dime of what you paid. But the lesson needs to be learned. If you’re going to buy a gun, particularly as a new gun owner, go to your local dealer. Go to a dealer, go to a legitimate brick and mortar dealer in your state, and have them show you the ropes. It’s a great advantage to have a dealer there that not only can sell you a gun, not only do all the paperwork, not only be known to be legitimate, but also they can train you. They can help you pick the right gun. They can help you train. I mean, I’m not even sure whether a newbie should be starting with a Glock 20 in 10 millimeter. Yeah, it depends on the person and their skill. Maybe they had some prior firearm, I don’t know. But that’s not exactly. It’s a great gun. I love the Glock 20. But Page – 15 – of 16

that’s not necessarily the best gun for a newbie to be starting with, not necessarily. So, this is the kind of things, these are the factors that a dealer will be able to advise and help you. They’ll make sure everything’s done right and legitimately, and you have that dealer as a resource. So, this is important. Don’t be a GOFU, you know, the Gun Owner Fuck Up in that regard. Don’t get scammed. Be very careful with anything online. If you’re going to buy online, there’s protocols you need to follow, you know. If it’s through, like, Gun Broker, where it’s a legitimate site, then things have to go through dealers. They have to be vetted. Look at the feedback. You know, ask for help with others that have done these type of purchases. If you’re new to this, I wouldn’t advise jumping in to online purchases, not at this stage. Now, eventually, with what we talked about at the beginning of the show, it may be streamlined with major companies, and then you’ll be fine and safe. But that is definitely something you want to avoid.

Evan Nappen 37:53

So, that is the first GOFU, but now let’s talk about the second GOFU, which is the DOGFU. Teddy, you have the background on the DOGFU. Tell us about the DOGFU.

Teddy Nappen 38:43

So, just kind of going into it a little more, I think personally.

Evan Nappen 39:36

This occurred in a person who was in a truck, right? They had their shotgun in a truck, and I believe they were parked in front of either a gas station or convenience store or something.

Teddy Nappen 39:43

Yeah, and he left the gun loaded in his truck, and of course the dog.

Evan Nappen 39:54

Now, this is farm country. I think it was out in Nebraska. I mean, you still shouldn’t have your loaded gun necessarily in your car. I don’t know whether that was lawful or not in Nebraska, maybe it was.

Teddy Nappen 41:12

Well, the dog saw a squirrel running, and so he reached for the gun.

Evan Nappen 41:20

Well, unfortunately, when it comes to dogs and guns, any pet and a gun, if you leave your gun loaded, safety, you know, all gun loaded never should ever load, even with the safety on. You know, dogs jump around, man. And all his paw had to do, which apparently happened, is get between the trigger guard and the trigger, and bang, that gun discharged. It actually hit a bystander, I believe, and caused immense problems. So, the take away.

Teddy Nappen 41:52

I think the bystander was reported as a postman, by the way. Just kidding. Page – 16 – of 16

Evan Nappen 41:57

No, I don’t think so. But the thing that’s important here is that this is not that uncommon. It’s not regularly occurring. But dogs and other animals inadvertently discharging a firearm is not unheard of. And hunters, particularly those that hunt with dogs, need to be very careful. There are a number, any number of stories of hunters that put their loaded gun down, and the dog accidentally discharges the gun. You know, you might be looking to safely climb over a fence or an obstacle, you need to unload your gun before doing it. And instead of leaning it up on the fence, loaded, and then think you’re going to reach over and grab it, and a dog jumps up on it, and next thing you know, boom. You’re getting shot, or somebody else is, and that gun’s discharging. It can happen in a household, you know, leaving your loaded handgun on a table or on a chair, and a dog or other animal can jump up and cause a discharge. So, be conscientious about your loaded gun. Even if nobody else is home, it’s just you and another living creature, this type of DOGFU can occur. So, beware.

Evan Nappen 43:27

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 43:38

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E292_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 291-Drop Your Socks and Grab Your GlocksAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 14

Gun Lawyer — Episode 291 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun rights, Second Amendment, gerrymandering, New Jersey, federal law, AK-47, AR-15, gun laws, Supreme Court, carry permit, gun dealers, political power, racial discrimination, gun ownership, legal battles.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Speaker 1 00:11

Lawyer,

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:20

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:22

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what’s on your mind today?

Teddy Nappen 00:27

Well, I never realized the guy that wrote the Zombie Survival Guide, Max Brooks, was related to Mel Brooks. I thought it was a common name.

Evan Nappen 00:38

What? How is he related to Mel Brooks?

Teddy Nappen 00:40

It’s his son, so.

Evan Nappen 00:42

Oh, my G-d! Is he gonna make a movie, you know, Young Zombie or something?

Teddy Nappen 00:44

Yeah, no, Young Zombie.

Evan Nappen 00:46

Or a zombie movie with lots of farts? Page – 2 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 00:52

No.

Evan Nappen 00:53

Blazing Zombies, Blazing Zombies.

Teddy Nappen 00:55

Yeah! Blazing Zombies, that’s it, kind of like what was it, Abraham Lincoln and the Vampire Abraham Lincoln.

Evan Nappen 01:02

Right. I think Blazing Zombies would probably be very popular.

Teddy Nappen 01:06

Yeah, I know, right. Let’s see them try to reboot Blazing Saddles. Good luck with that.

Evan Nappen 01:12

Well, they could do Blazing. Yeah, but if they did Blazing Zombies, they would never be able to say certain words that they used in Blazing Saddles.

Teddy Nappen 01:23

Yeah, like calling the zombies a bunch of leg draggers.

Evan Nappen 01:26

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Actually, we’re kind of dealing with a zombie apocalypse with the Democrat party lately. I think they are a bunch of, you know. They don’t have brains. They just try to eat brains.

Teddy Nappen 01:48

Yeah. And unfortunately, they keep coming up with new ideas to screw us out of our rights.

Evan Nappen 01:55

Right! That’s it. That’s what they do. They send the horde out to eat our rights. They do the horde, and they just try to get everybody on board to sacrifice for their pure unadulterated political power. Like trying to get college athletes to boycott their entire athletic career, over, for example, they’re flipping out over the ending of racial gerrymandering. I mean, it’s kind of unbelievable when you watch them talk about this being, you know, Jim Crow II, when all that is being done is ending racial discrimination, with setting up voting districts. Somehow ending racial discrimination is Jim Crow. Only a Democrat with zombie brains could ever make that argument with a straight face.

Teddy Nappen 02:59

Well, it’s also very funny because, if you cut to all of New England, where the breakdown is roughly like 40 to 50% Republican, and there’s no representation for that. And so, they, and it’s all the states are heavily, heavily gerrymandered, like zero representation for Republicans, but oh, that’s fine. It’s only Page – 3 – of 14

when the Republicans say, you know what? You’ve established the rules of engagement, and we will oblige. That’s just how the game is played.

Evan Nappen 03:29

Now, you would think that the Democrats would have expert knowledge on Jim Crow, because they’re the ones that started it. The original Jim Crow laws were done by Democrats after the Civil War. And, of course, who opposed the Civil Rights Act? The Democrats. They were the originals. And then for them to get up now and claim how much they want to oppose what they are perceiving as Jim Crow laws are kind of rich. And, of course, it isn’t. It is the actual elimination of the racial discrimination that is in place by way of their gerrymandering, and this is very important to our gun rights, Teddy. Very important to our gun rights. As voting is turned around, so that it actually reflects the voters, as opposed to these bizarre jurisdictions engineered for Democrats just to maintain power, we will see more and more advances in the fight for our gun rights. It is the other side there that constantly is trying to take away our Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 04:52

What always makes me laugh, though, is they always try to say the party switched. They always make that argument. By the way, it’s a completely disproven argument. Like, okay, what time period? Was it under Senator (Robert) Byrd, who was a, what was it? The Grand Wizard?

Evan Nappen 05:07

The Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Teddy Nappen 05:10

Which, by the way, he was a mentor to Joe Biden throughout his political career. But no one talks about that. Or when Joe Biden, what did Joe Biden say on the stage?

Evan Nappen 05:21

Oh, don’t even.

Teddy Nappen 05:21

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Evan Nappen 05:25

party,

Evan Nappen 05:25

The party hasn’t switched. They’re just trying to build a bigger fence with a plantation. They are the ones trying to run a plantation, and that’s what gerrymandering, prior to this Calais Supreme Court case, that’s what it was really about. How does the Democrat maintain their plantations of voter districts, to maintain their power? Page – 4 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 05:50

Yeah, exactly. They put up the creation that Johnson, what was it? We’re going to get these guys voting Democrat for the rest of their lives. They created the giant welfare state.

Evan Nappen 06:01

Yeah. And by the way, he didn’t even call them “these guys”.

Teddy Nappen 06:05

I know I was trying to, I was paraphrasing.

Evan Nappen 06:11

Describing them. Yeah, just their hypocrisy definitely knows no bounds, and this time period now is somewhat encouraging, because a lot of everything that they’ve built on, including taking our gun rights, it’s collapsing all around them. It’s very encouraging to see that. You just saw the primaries go here. Trump with what 34 zero or whatever on his picks, and that helps get us further with the expansion of our Second Amendment rights. This is all a part. Because part of MAGA is the rebirth of the power of the Second Amendment, that is a part of MAGA, guys. You’ve got to know that, and you can see it. We are now in a completely different world than in the Biden era. I mean, Biden was essentially engaging in a clamp down, a clamp down on our rights in every way that he could abuse federal power to do so. And we’re seeing incredible changes in the other direction now.

Teddy Nappen 07:29

I’ll give you the highlight of that. We dealt with this, where it was weaponization. They were going after dealers for the most minuscule things with a zero tolerance. And now that’s been eliminated, and it has been helping. Of course, New Jersey picks up the mantle from their new AG. Now they’re going after FFL dealers and demanding records detailing the sales of Glocks, which I could have sworn they already knew about the sales, because every time you purchase.

Evan Nappen 08:01

Yeah, this is what is such crap about these subpoenas to all the dealers to turn over their records of the last decade for every Glock sold. New Jersey has a pistol purchase permit system, which is a form of register. So, the State Police already have the computerized registered database of every purchase of a Glock since the computerization of the pistol permit system, which completely covers the decade that they’re requesting. In other words, the only reason for this subpoena is essentially, in my opinion, to harass dealers because the information itself is already at their fingertips. Now, the bigger legal question is, is that something legally they’re allowed to access because New Jersey has Administrative Code provisions that mandate confidentiality on all gun records of purchase acquisition. All that kind of stuff is protected by that confidentiality. So, maybe they themselves thought that trying to just get dealer records, maybe could do an end run over their own Administrative Code, preventing the release of this information. Although there is a provision in the Code that says for law enforcement purposes it can be accessed. But this is a lawsuit, not law enforcement purposes. So, it really is interesting the approach they’re taking. If they’re righteous in the law, in being able to access this data, then they can access it through the database in the appropriate legal manner, if they are qualified. And if not, why are they subpoenaing dealers to turn over information that is already in the possession of the State of New Page – 5 – of 14

Jersey? And these application forms, et cetera, are protected by way of their own Administrative Code provisions, setting out confidentiality.

Teddy Nappen 10:20

So,

Teddy Nappen 10:21

Yeah, I will say what’s really messed up is I love the AG’s response. So, this was actually from 2A News Team. They asked these questions and the AG responded. Oh no, no. These requests are not seeking information about individual purchasers or any person’s identifying information about their purchases. However, the subpoena says that exact wording.

Evan Nappen 10:50

Right.

Teddy Nappen 10:51

Documents show sufficient sale or transfer of Glock handguns from you to New Jersey customers. Literally, it’s the first line in the subpoena.

Evan Nappen 11:03

Right. And the thing about Glocks. Look, if you own a Glock, you know you better hold on to it. This is the new tactic of the anti-Second Amendment rights movement. To try to ban and restrict Glocks because of a claim that they can be relatively easily converted to fully automatic using what’s called a Glock switch. But mere possession of a Glock switch under federal law is considered a machine gun in and of itself, and these switches are banned in New Jersey as well. The component is already illegal. So, trying to link Glocks to them so that they can further take away one of the most popular self-defense handguns in the world. This is their gambit. This is their gambit now to try to do that.

Teddy Nappen 12:10

So, it was also interesting, is pull it was from the article. Out of the 15 FFLs that they subpoenaed, they were roughly, there was 15 of those FFLs were out of the total authorized Glock dealers. So, I’m trying to think the strategy of it. If they’re trying, if these were just the 15, were kind of like where they went after those two gun dealers and forced them to basically have to essentially declare and register every purchase or gun-related material. Are they just going for the small fish to then go after the whole? Kind of like a staff?

Teddy Nappen 12:46

Out of curiosity. Could there be a constitutional challenge because there’s a federal firearms license? Could you either make the Supremacy Clause argument or just going with the idea of there shouldn’t be a state license, too?

Evan Nappen 12:46

Okay. At a minimum, it’s designed to harass gun dealers. I mean, New Jersey is dedicated to that principle, given the excesses that they go to regarding being a New Jersey retail firearm dealer. I mean Page – 6 – of 14

having an FFL, that’s a federal firearm license. New Jersey also requires for a dealer to have a New Jersey retail dealer firearms license, and the retail dealer firearms license is what is managed by the state of New Jersey. And that’s where you see an incredibly excessive and additional amount of requirements, far beyond what federal law requires, designed to be a legal discouragement to being a dealer. Also, it’s been used in the past as a pretext to raid individuals that had FFLs but did not have a NJ retail dealer license. I’ve had cases on this where individuals that had a federal firearms license for Curio and Relic, collector licenses, the state alleged they were federal firearm licensees and acting as dealers, which they were not. They are collectors. And because they alleged they had a federal license, they needed a New Jersey firearm retail dealer license. They proceeded to conduct raids on the individuals that held Curio and Relic licenses. So, this is one of the risks out there. They were able to purge and merge the federal list to the state list of New Jersey retailers.

Evan Nappen 14:31

Well, the problem is that the federal firearm law is expressly not preemptive. It’s designed to be the absolute minimum gun control harassment that exists throughout the entire country. And then states are invited to, you know, this was the philosophy, invited to go wild. So, you have the baseline of the federal law, which has many constitutional questions about it itself, expressly not being preemptive, and the states are left to their own devices to create whatever stricter and stricter and more harassing and more discouraging gun laws that they want to pass. And as long as those laws are somehow upheld constitutionally, they can keep on going. There is no cap. There’s no cap placed on the attack on our rights. It should exist, but doesn’t, except in a few very narrow areas where there is express preemption.

Evan Nappen 16:22

One of those places where there is express preemption is Title 18 926 A for interstate transport of your guns. You can transport your guns cased, unloaded, locked, not readily accessible, etc., so that you can go through bad states in your travels. There’s areas of preemption, specifically for carry, like LEOSA, Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act, where retired and active law enforcement can carry, regardless of the state law that might otherwise try to prevent them from doing so. There’s actually preemption for carry. It was the original carry preemption, which a lot of people don’t know was for armored car security. Armored car personnel was actually the first federal carry preemption. And then today we’re pushing to try to get national reciprocity, which is in effect national preemption, mandating that every state recognize every other state’s carry rights to that particular resident in whatever state that resident might be in. But generally across 99% of all the federal gun laws, it is expressly not preemptive. So, this is where the problems come in, because there is no cap on the damage that states can do.

Teddy Nappen 17:55

So, it would require an, it would basically either require an act of Congress to amend it to include the preemption.

Evan Nappen 18:02

Yes, literally, what would be great is if we finally get a cap. Now, in theory, the cap on bad gun laws is this little thing we call the Second Amendment, and the Second Amendment’s cap was fairly broad. The Page – 7 – of 14

cap, as I recall, it said shall not be infringed. Okay? Shall not be infringed. So, any infringement is arguably a violation of the Second Amendment. Therefore no state or federal government, because we now have it incorporated to the states through the McDonald case, through the 14th Amendment, like many of our other constitutional rights. No state or federal law should infringe on our gun rights. Yet we’re knee deep in battles over various gun laws that are utterly passed with contempt of the Second Amendment, and then we have to go through these fights over it.

Teddy Nappen 19:09

Yeah, and it’s definitely. I noticed that whenever it comes to New Jersey, I mean, I know people always talk about state powers, how they, you know, always leave it to the states. However, there are some things that there’s just so much abuse by the states that what they do, I mean, just right now, what they are doing right now is disgusting. Where they’re just harassing these dealers, going after them, wasting the taxpayers dollars. And it’s the level of where, all right, the federal government needs to step in, and I can see everyone’s like, “Oh, don’t allow the feds to get in, but here is the truth. They abuse it so much that there’s just no, there’s no value.

Evan Nappen 19:54

Well, frankly, if we simply made the federal law, as it stands right now, as the preemptive. Just passed a law saying federal law preempts state law. Then every state gun law would become mooted out. Done. Invalid. Because only the federal law would apply. And currently under federal law there are no prohibitions on carry. There’s no addressing that in a negative way. Now, they might say, because the federal law doesn’t address it at all, then the states could still try to regulate carry. But then we still have the constitutional Second Amendment with the Bruen decision and such regarding carry. Then if we look at how the impact would be beyond that, well, everything else that these states try to pass, particularly on sale, possession, or on any of that, it would all be preemptively null and void by way of a federal law that they first engineered to just be a minimum to suddenly become the maximum. And that would concentrate our efforts only to having essentially federal fights, which would be pretty good, because instead of the pro-gun movement, those that defend our gun rights, and instead of having them fighting in every jurisdiction, everywhere, every state or county or town that passes some anti-Second Amendment gun rights law that we have to go in and challenge, we would have a preemptive federal law. So, every battle would simply be taking place, for the most part, at the federal law level of preemption, and it would basically gut that entire expenditure of the battle that we constantly have to foot the bill and pay for. It would be an interesting thing to conceptualize, to finally have a federal full preemption. I think it’s workable.

Teddy Nappen 22:18

Yeah, and look, I never thought we’d ever see, like, the tax stamp removed for suppressors, and having a chance for it to be removed from the NFA, so anything is possible. We just need to get the right people in, and the right amount of votes.

Evan Nappen 22:30

Yeah, it might, it might actually be, but then you’ll have even pro-Second Amendment folks, say, oh, states rights, states’ rights, you know. And they become so focused on so-called states’ rights that we still are losing our rights, because, as you say, Teddy, there’s an abuse by the states of our rights, and Page – 8 – of 14

this could end that abuse. So, when you have an abuse of state power, then the federal government really should come in to stop the abuse by the states.

Teddy Nappen 22:53

I think it was in New York, and this might have been years ago. Do you remember they posted the map of who owned firearms?

Evan Nappen 23:15

Yeah, it was New York, yeah, right. And then the public record, and then you could, it was searchable when you could find the gun owners.

Teddy Nappen 23:25

Of course, a lot of them got robbed and harassed, and everything in that, which is just like, all right, fine. And you know what? When is it going to be enough for states’ powers? When they say everyone wears a yellow armband? It’s a picture of an AR, like states power, states rights. It’s such BS for allowing the abuse that comes down from New Jersey. Where you have the gulag that is the symbol of oppression of a totalitarian regime, and it just pisses me off so much when I hear that argument. I hear the people that make perfect the enemy of good, every time. How long did it take us to lose our rights to these people? Decades. And that’s what it’s going to take to get them back. It’s just disgusting.

Evan Nappen 24:12

It is. But we’re in the fight, and we have to keep this fight on. Politically, the big picture is critical in our ability to win and get these changes. As much as all this is aggravating, if you step back, man, I can step back and look from having been practicing gun law for over 40 years. I can look and say we have come a long way. We’ve come a long way. The fact that we can finally have a carry permit in New Jersey is astounding. It’s astounding that we got to that, because that was something that seemed like an impossibility, and yet it got achieved. You can see amazing other advances.

Evan Nappen 25:07

Hopefully, shortly, we will see the Supreme Court take a hardware case. We need them to take a hardware case. What I’m talking about is so-called assault firearms or assault weapons, magazines, where there is hardware that’s been banned. Where the constitutionality of the ability to ban hardware finally gets established out of the Supreme Court to end it, to stop it. That’s something that we’ve got to get to, and I think we’re going to see that soon. It is coming. There are so many cases, and they’ve been going up the chain. I think we’re going to see it. I don’t know if it’ll be, you know, this session. We’re getting close, and that’s what we saw, the prediction by even the U.S. Attorney General. The U.S. Attorney General saying they believe that ARs and others, Supreme Court will eventually pronounce they are legal.

Teddy Nappen 26:16

I know there’s like, I know there’s rumors, everyone, about the different justices retiring. Imagine if Justice Thomas’s retirement, his last decision that he does, is he legalized and ends the assault firearm bans across the country. Page – 9 – of 14

Evan Nappen 26:31

Oh, that’d be just wonderful. I’d like to see St. Thomas.

Teddy Nappen 26:36

Yeah. You know they did the commemorative, like Heller, like revolver, I remember that they.

Evan Nappen 26:43

Which I have, I have a commemorative Heller Smith & Wesson .38. Not only was it commemorative and put out by Smith when the Heller decision came down, so it’s actually a Smith & Wesson bonafide commemorative, but I have that, I think I showed it to you, Teddy, it’s signed personally by Dick Heller, who’s a friend. So, I have a signed commemorative of the Heller decision, signed by Dick Heller himself.

Teddy Nappen 27:10

Well, the next one I want it to be just, it’ll say the name of the case, and it’s just the Clarence Thomas smile that you see. The GIF area Thomas commemorative AR.

Evan Nappen 27:23

And then, of course, the Left would complain that it’s racist because it’s a black rifle. No. You can’t be racist against Thomas, right? I mean, they always talk.

Teddy Nappen 27:37

No, no, they say you can, because they say that he’s not black enough. If you know his entire history, the like, his, you could not, you could not live as a like a black American, like his entire thing, like inner city kid, like I think he was a single, like single mom, they like raised, like literally did the like live the entire black experience like it would be a lifetime movie. It would be amazing.

Evan Nappen 28:05

He is an amazing man with actually the embodiment of the American dream, in effect. Coming from an absolutely underprivileged, you know, situation where he rose to be one of the greatest Supreme, one of the greatest, for sure, Supreme Court justices. His amazing story about an amazing man. Just great. And they don’t, because just like with gerrymandering, where there are plenty of Republican minority reps out there, it’s not racism at all. It’s the Democrat power grab, and because Judge Thomas is conservative, they refuse to acknowledge the benefit of having such a great man.

Teddy Nappen 29:03

Yeah. And he is what Joe Biden would describe as articulate, bright, and clean.

Evan Nappen 29:09

Oh G-d.

Teddy Nappen 29:13

I love how Biden said that to Obama. I know. Page – 10 – of 14

Evan Nappen 29:16

I mean. He would constantly say these things. And yet they will extrapolate 10 times out to try to paint Trump as racist when Biden was. He bona fide said stuff that was absolutely insane with racism. Stereotypical racism.

Teddy Nappen 29:44

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 29:45

Yeah, really. I mean, just come on. Insulting and amazing. Well, and let me tell you, Teddy, about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range. You and I have shot there, and you love WeShoot, don’t you, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 30:04

I had a great time.

Evan Nappen 30:05

We always do, every time. We got our certifications there for our carries, and you can do the same. They’ve got a great pro shop, great trainers, great facility, and it’s really conveniently right off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey. Lakewood, New Jersey. You want to check out the WeShoot website at weshootusa.com. And you should make sure you get on their email list, because WeShoot sends out a lot of great stuff via email. All their great deals and specials and cool events they’re doing and all kinds of fun things. WeShoot is extremely dynamic, and they are always doing something. WeShoot is just super fun. So, if you’re looking for a great range to belong to, a great place to shoot, a great place to hone your skills, get your training, you cannot do any better than WeShoot in Lakewood. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 31:18

Let me also mention my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law. It is a book used by, well, everybody. If you want to understand New Jersey gun law, you need my book, which is not surprisingly titled New Jersey Gun Law. You can get your copy at EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com. When you get the book, you’ll see it is very large. It is over 500 pages. It’s 120 topics, all question and answer. And the greatest thing about my book is that the book itself can be used as a weapon. It’s that big. I’m not advising you to do that, but should you need to, yes, that is a book you don’t want to get hit in the head with. So, check out New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com. Teddy, I bet you have something else up your sleeve to tell us.

Teddy Nappen 32:18

Well, one of the things that did come up, and I just thought, what the heck? This is in the feed of the New York Times. Where are all the AK 47s? Like, where have all the AK 47s gone? I know.

Evan Nappen 32:19

I don’t know. Where have they gone? Page – 11 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 32:21

I know. It was a very interesting article, but it was also very strange. Just reading through, I don’t know if you ever heard of Jim Fuller?

Evan Nappen 32:47

The Fuller Brush Man?

Teddy Nappen 32:49

Apparently, he’s a gunsmith. He makes custom AKs. I’m not too familiar on that, but he was going into details of, like, and they were talking about the collapse of the AK market.

Evan Nappen 33:01

Well, there is a downturn, but prices aren’t collapsing.

Teddy Nappen 33:06

Yeah, I mean, how much are you going for?

Evan Nappen 33:08

One of the Russian AKs going. You know the problem is, what led to the big boom, of course, was when we were importing AKs. We could have them from China and Russia. Although we were getting really cheap ammo, and there was so much of the surplus ammo, the 762 by 39 that it became extremely popular, because you could so reasonably shoot. Then it became so overwhelmingly possible that even American-made guns, like the Ruger Mini 30, for example, were being made in 762 by 39. Then you also had the influx of very reasonable SKSs. I mean, I remember when SKSs were under $100, for an SKS, and then you know the reasonable AKs and all that coming in with cheap ammo. Man, it was great. Then they started to ban the import, the ban of Chinese, ban of Russian, and the cheap ammo dried up. The guns that were coming in, the imports like those were dried up.

Teddy Nappen 33:56

Apparently, it was in 1989 under Bush, because the shooter used the Chinese AK.

Evan Nappen 34:32

Please remember, it was Bush. It was Bush, the Republican, the neocon, and this is one of the things that you got to always remember. Even though they may have the “R” there, they’re not necessarily a friend of the Second Amendment.

Teddy Nappen 34:47

Yeah. And then the article tries to highlight more of like 2014 where the annexation of Crimea, the U.S. put sanctions on Russia. So, there goes all the Russian AKs.

Evan Nappen 34:57

Well, not just Russian AKs. I mean, we were getting a lot of great guns, really cool guns from Russia, you know. We’re getting SKSs – originals, beautiful guns. I mean, phenomenal. Russian SKSs are probably the best SKS ever made, machined, gorgeous. Mosin-Nagant rifles, right? They were very Page – 12 – of 14

reasonable, and you know, you want to do the enemy at the gates, man. You got your gun and super strong, tough rifles. You know, a lot of great stuff could come in, and now we don’t see it anymore. And prices have skyrocketed. I mean, if you look at SKS prices today, holy crap. You’d be lucky to find a Chinese SKS that you used to be able to buy for less than $100, one in great shape today for 600 bucks, you know? I mean, easily 600, some even more. I’ve seen Russian SKSs pushing $2,000 a piece at the gun show. I mean, the prices are just unbelievable, because the market has a limitation now to the quantity that’s out there. And by the way, there’s probably only a 10th of the amount of Russian SKSs compared to Chinese SKSs. Even with that, the prices are way up there, and one of the reasons is that the SKSs, for example, are excellent functioning rifles. They’re handy. They function great and are very popular.

Evan Nappen 36:36

With AKs, you know, there was that whole growth of it, and we were able to have all that great, cheap ammo. Once you got into an introductory, reasonable AK, then you wanted to up your game with other AKs, and all that. But what’s happened is, with the close out of that, we’ve become more, much, much more AR focused. The AR-15 platform, and everything about it. That’s all, a lot of it is U.S. made, and kind of America’s rifle. I would have to say today that America’s rifle, without a doubt, is the AR-15.

Teddy Nappen 37:17

I would also say there’s also just the customization, and I think modularity.

Evan Nappen 37:23

Its modularity seems to appeal to a lot of gun folks, because you can add and change and put all kinds of whistles and bells.

Teddy Nappen 37:32

That also goes to the tone of American culture versus like the Eastern Bloc of the AK 47. We’re very individualistic, where we will make it so it is something that works for us, versus, you know, the AK 47 is designed, it is designed in that shape or form. You can do some small mods, but generally speaking, you pick up an AK 47 it’s, you know, hold it up to another one, like that’s the level of it.

Evan Nappen 37:58

That’s an interesting point, Teddy, about how in those countries they don’t. It’s hard to find a Bubba AK in countries where they make the AKs, isn’t it? They don’t Bubbafi much, do they? But we love to modify, change, and customize, and that’s actually a lot of the fun of it. Let’s face it, it’s fun. It’s fun to add the accessories to fit your needs, make it look cooler, make it function better, make it more appropriate for whatever your needs may be. But then again, the anti-gun rights crowd will suddenly take any given feature and demonize certain features. So, if they are intrinsically evil, that if for some reason you have a telescoping stock on your AR or any other semi-auto, because your stock moves one or two inches back and forth, somehow that is such a huge impact on crime.

Teddy Nappen 39:09

Or has a barrel shroud, which they can’t define. Page – 13 – of 14

Evan Nappen 39:12

Oh yeah, well, they try to. Remember.

Teddy Nappen 39:15

The shoulder thingy that goes up, you know, the seat belt.

Evan Nappen 39:18

The shoulder thingy that goes up is a barrel shroud. Isn’t that interesting? These are the experts that are voting for these laws. They have no clue what they’re even voting for, nor do they care. As long as it’s going against gun owners, they’re for it. They don’t care what it is.

Teddy Nappen 39:39

Yeah, and I will say, just from the article, like, they try to, of course, they try to say, oh, Trump’s tariffs is what killed the AK market. There’s like also going from Russia, Ukraine, which they tried to say, you, oh, Poland is one of the key suppliers of Ukraine. No, the United States is one of the key suppliers of military to Ukraine. We’ve, you know, what is it, 40 billion, 80 billion, like crazy amounts, like they’re just still in that. And then again, tariffs are non-inflationary. We’ve known that, we’ve proven it. And I love how they try to say, well, we could get more AKs if we removed tariffs on Poland.

Evan Nappen 40:21

Well, you know, it’s pretty bad when the Left media is trying to lure removal of tariffs by saying we could get more AKs in the country. That’s a pretty interesting stretch for them.

Teddy Nappen 40:34

I know why they’re doing it. They’re trying to turn gun owners. They’re trying their best to turn gun owners into the debt, which is a ridiculous concept. They’ve demonized them, called them racist, call them everything under the sun. So, good luck trying to convince a gun owner to be considered a Democrat. If they are voting Democrat, you’re voting for your own destruction. I’m sorry.

Evan Nappen 40:54

And speaking of destruction of gun owners, that is what GOFUs are. GOFU is our Gun Owner Fuck Ups. Every show we like to highlight the GOFU of the week, and this week’s GOFU is something that is constantly coming my way in the practice of law. And some of you listeners may say, yeah, it’s obvious, but I still have to say it because I keep getting case after case after case. It’s real simple, folks. You need to know your state’s gun laws. Most people understand that they need to know their state’s gun laws, but it doesn’t end there. If you travel out of state, you need to know the state’s gun laws that you’re traveling to. I constantly get cases of individuals that come from other states and end up being criminally charged in New Jersey because New Jersey’s gun laws are nothing like the gun laws of the state they were traveling from. The reverse is true, my friends. The reverse is true.

Evan Nappen 42:13

You may have a New Jersey carry permit, but you need to know, if you don’t know, that no other state in America is recognized by New Jersey. No other state’s gun license is recognized by New Jersey. New Jersey has no reciprocity per se. When you travel, there are states where you can carry, because Page – 14 – of 14

despite New Jersey not recognizing their carry license, they’re willing to recognize any lawfully issued state carry. Many of the states, over 70% of the land mass in America, is constitutional carry, where as long as you’re law-abiding, you can carry even without a permit. But you still have to know, because I get calls from New Jersey folks that are getting jammed up in other states, making the mistake that others frequently make coming into New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 43:24

So, the GOFU is real simple. Know the gun laws. Know the gun laws of the jurisdiction that you are residing in, and know the gun laws of the jurisdiction that you may be traveling in. It’s critical! I see it every day as a classic of virtually all GOFUs. This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 44:05

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E291_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 265-Gun Control… Now With Wi-FiAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 265 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Glock switches, Second Amendment, machine gun, V series, full auto, semi auto, NFA, AI technology,

Wi Fi surveillance, gun control, carry permits, New Jersey, gun law, self defense, legalization.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:16

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:18

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:20

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you may have been seeing in the news all the hyper activity about

Glock switches. And, you know, for those of you who aren’t familiar with a Glock switch, it’s a device

that can be easily 3D printed that can be put on the back of a Glock slide. This allows you, by flicking a

switch, to make the semi-automatic Glock pistol into a fully-automatic Glock pistol. Now, just the switch

itself, if you possess just the switch, is considered a machine gun, and you can face 10 years in federal

prison and all of that fun. And not to mention the state law charges as well. But you see, the Second

Amendment oppression gang has taken this issue of Glock switches, you know, things produced by

essentially criminals who are printing these up, procuring them, and the actual criminals getting caught

with Glocks having these Glock switches, and they’ve decided, hey, we can blame Glock for illegal

conversions of their gun.

Evan Nappen 01:54

So, this is their new gambit to go after, essentially, the modern polymer handguns of multiple types,

even by going at their ability to be converted by use of a totally prohibited and illegal device that is used

by criminals and created by criminals and criminally possessed and criminally sold. But somehow that

is Glocks fault, you see. So, this is the twisted world that we live in. And Glock recently, as some of you

may know, discontinued their models to come out with the new V Series. And the new V Series

eliminates the slide the way it was constructed, so that the Glock switch can function in the back of that

slide. Okay? They changed their design, in effect, to either try to subvert the litigation from the Second

Amendment oppression folks, or to try to address this issue in a mechanical way. Whatever some

people think they’re, they’re rolling over, but it’s probably more along the line of a corporate decision

making based on what they’re facing. Whatever the basis or reason is, I don’t know. But the bottom line

is, they’ve changed their models. They have the V system coming out, which cannot use these

traditional Glock switches, and lo and behold, the V’s have just hit the market. They’re out there. And

guess what is now out there for the V Series? That’s right, a new Glock switch. A new Glock switch that

Page – 1 – of 12makes the V Series supposedly to rock and roll. So, you know, technology constantly gets defeated if

you have criminals wanting to do so. And this is just going to be an endless game of what? Re-

modification to a new type of switch to another new type? I mean, it just gets to the point of silliness.

Teddy Nappen 04:14

It’s very funny, too, because the meme going around is life finds a way.

Evan Nappen 04:21

Yeah, life finds a way.

Teddy Nappen 04:23

Life finds a way.

Evan Nappen 04:24

Well, here’s, but I have the solution to the entire Glock switch issue, to the whole issue of, you know,

modifying firearms into full auto and all of that. It’s real simple. We need to just legalize full auto. I

mean, it’s really simple. Then it wouldn’t be an issue. Then if you want to have a Glock that has a Glock

switch, if you want to have a Glock 18 that’s factory switchable, fine. If you want to have one. You see,

here’s the problem. You see, it has been constructed as an argument by the oppressionists going all

the way back to the 1934 Machine Gun Act, the NFA, somehow distinguishing semi- automatic from

fully-automatic. And we even see the pro 2A folks, you know, try to make that distinction. Say, look, you

know, my semi-auto isn’t a machine gun. It’s semi-automatic. And the antis say, well, you know, it’s

easily converted or whatever. Or semis can be just as bad. So, we need to ban semi-automatics.

Evan Nappen 05:39

And then you fall into that trap. It’s a trap because, folks, let’s be honest. What’s the difference between

fully-automatic and semi-automatic? It’s real simple. With semi-automatic, you pull the trigger for each

shot. With fully-automatic, you hold the trigger and the shots all fire. Okay, big effing deal. You’re still

shooting the same bullets. You’re still firing the same gun, and you’re still blasting them out. The only

difference is you don’t have to pull the trigger for each shot. Oh, my God. Okay? It’s really a phony

baloney difference. We shouldn’t tolerate the difference, and machine guns shouldn’t be prohibited. It’s

that simple. It is a crap distinction. Who cares if the rounds come out because you have to pull the

trigger for each shot or hold the trigger for all the shots. Does it really matter? Come on. So, this whole

development of this distinction is now being utilized by the anti-gunners to try to ban handguns, folks.

To ban semi-auto handguns because of the artificial nature of that distinction.

Evan Nappen 07:10

And we, as Pro-Second Amendment rights folks, need to break out of this and just say, legalize full

auto, legalize semi, legalize pump, lever, whatever. There’s no distinguishment upon actions of a

firearm. None. If it shoots, it’s a gun. We have a right to have it. Who cares how much lead it spews by

whether you pull the trigger or hold the trigger. It’s just stupid. I don’t want to play on their playing field. I

don’t want to accept this artificial distinction that we never should have accepted to begin with. And by

the way, the original NFA, the original law from ’34 was a ban on both semi- automatic and fully-

Page – 2 – of 12automatic firearms, and it evolved through the committee hearings so that semi-automatics were okay

and full auto became the prohibited version. But that distinction was stupid then, and it’s stupid now.

Evan Nappen 08:26

Maybe it was a way to somehow pass gun control national where, even at the time, the NRA said,

we’ve solved the gun control problem for the country by having this wonderful National Firearm Act

there. Look, the NRA was naive. And I’m not bashing NRA, okay? Not doing that. I’m just saying back

then, maybe they thought it was the way to play it. But look, we’ve learned since then, okay? It’s not.

And we’ve got to not accept it. We need the NFA gone. We should have the right to machine guns,

suppressors, you name it, any other weapon. That federal law needs to go, and we need to quit the

phony baloney nonsense of trying to distinguish between semi-auto and full-auto.

Teddy Nappen 09:14

I will say, just kind of, I always look to the segment as to look at history. Right after World War Two, you

had every soldier coming home and what was the thing they were holding? Grease guns, Thompson’s.

All of them were coming home saying, like, hell yeah, that machine gun was fantastic.

Evan Nappen 09:34

It saved my ass. Saved my ass. That’s right.

Teddy Nappen 09:37

They had a chance.

Evan Nappen 09:37

They had the opportunity. They could have.

Teddy Nappen 09:41

All these people could have said.

Evan Nappen 09:42

Right!

Teddy Nappen 09:42

Hell, yeah, I want my machine gun. I say, it saved my ass.

Evan Nappen 09:46

Why not?

Teddy Nappen 09:47

True. It saved my troops. What happened?

Evan Nappen 09:50

Right!

Page – 3 – of 12Teddy Nappen 09:50

And they blew it. And now,

Evan Nappen 09:52

Well, they were naive. They didn’t realize that opportunity, and it passed. Well, we have a new

opportunity. Now is a new opportunity, especially as we’re attacking NFA with the big, beautiful lawsuit

at least. Going at now that the taxes have been removed from everything except on machine guns. But

if we can win getting rid of the NFA by simply having the tax removed, then the next reconciliation bill,

we can remove the tax on machine guns, and machine guns will be legal, too. So, we have a pathway

here to actually achieving this, and we’ll have to see.

Evan Nappen 10:32

But you know, Teddy, I saw this article that’s very disturbing, because it has some serious, serious

ramifications for technology and guns. This is from Zero Hedge. And the article is entitled,

“Pennsylvania School District Using AI-Enabled Wi-Fi To Search Students For Firearms.” This article is

from November 18, 2025, by Tyler Durden. (https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/pennsylvania-

school-district-using-ai-enabled-wi-fi-search-students-firearms) And what he says in this article is very

scary, okay? Very scary. Not just because of what’s going on with schools, but the actual ramifications

of this. Listen to this. Pennsylvania school district is using artificial intelligence to keep guns off the

campus, and the way they’re doing it, this new technology combines AI and Wi-Fi. And the way it works

is spooky, because AI harnesses the district’s Wi-Fi signal to determine whether people are carrying

weapons as they enter schools. Get a load of that, folks. Did you know that Wi-Fi signals can be

harnessed to determine whether somebody is carrying a weapon or not? They have this technology,

folks, and this school is using it.

Evan Nappen 12:06

The technology was developed by CurvePoint of Pittsburgh, and it grew out of AI research from

Carnegie Mellon University. And according to the company, Wi-AI uses spatial intelligence to find

weapons, such as guns, before they enter a school. The AI system analyzes space and detects where

potential weapons are located by interpreting how Wi- Fi signals reflect off people and objects. Let that

sink in. Do you think they’re going to keep that technology just on schools? And look, it’s a question

whether they should even have it in schools. There’s Fourth Amendment and all kinds of privacy

issues. I get it, but think of this technology now, everywhere, everywhere.

Teddy Nappen 13:05

You know what they just did. They stole a plot from Dark Knight, where you.

Evan Nappen 13:10

Really?

Teddy Nappen 13:10

Use sonar, because when Batman.

Page – 4 – of 12Evan Nappen 13:13

Oh, you’re right. You’re absolutely right.

Teddy Nappen 13:15

It maps the entire city and Lucius, you know, Morgan Freeman, the character he’s like.

Evan Nappen 13:20

Yeah!

Teddy Nappen 13:21

This is wrong. Did they see that movie and like, hell yeah, that’s a great idea.

Evan Nappen 13:27

Ha, ha, ha! I think that’s what they did. I think that’s what they did. You’re absolutely right. Yeah, this is,

this is the Dark Knight apocalyptic scenario here, and we’re dealing now with really a brand new world

of Fourth Amendment concerns. And this is very spooky. In the article here, they quote from a Seattle-

based lawyer named Evan Oshan, he happens to have the same name as me. No relation. It says

technology could devolve into allowing warrantless searches of every person who enters a campus with

no evidence or reasonable suspicion. Then he goes on, and if not checked, technology could be

implemented in all public spaces, creating an even larger surveillance state. Let’s consider that, oh boy.

Evan Nappen 14:28

And he says this technology creates a slippery slope. Today, it’s Wi-Fi signals searching for weapons in

schools. Tomorrow, it’s public transportation, shopping malls, government buildings. Where does it

end? The Constitution provides the guardrails, and we ignore them at our peril. He’s not kidding, folks.

You can see this being abused by states like New Jersey to the nth degree. And even if you’re a legal

licensed carrier, are you now going to be subject to just random stop and search? Stop and frisk? Stop

over that because of Wi-AI? And I thought of something else here that isn’t even mentioned in the

article. If this technology is accessible in this way to just this institution, well, criminals that want to rob a

place can probably hack into Wi-Fi in a given area, and using this technology, determine if anybody is

armed or not before they hit it. It seems to have an amazing potential to set up for crime. It can be used

by criminals. This is scary stuff. It intrudes on our rights. We need to pay attention. They need to start

putting some laws in place to protect us from Wi-Fi AI.

Teddy Nappen 16:06

I will say for the one bit as a counter. The same mad lab that put the Glock switch on the V, someone is

immediately going to start working on guns that don’t get detected. I promise you that. They will.

Evan Nappen 16:19

Well, we can hope for that.

Teddy Nappen 16:21

Yeah, let’s hope for that.

Page – 5 – of 12Evan Nappen 16:22

Yeah. Let’s hope we can have Wi-Fi deflection, Wi-Fi stealth technology, you know. Yeah, yeah, good.

Well, there’s always hope that technology will save us in protecting our rights. That’s true. By the way, I

want to also make a quick point here about a cool article I found in News2A, which is Second

Amendment news. You can check them out at www. news2a.com. They had an article here that says,

“As Carry Permits Surge, New Jersey Begs Court to Deny Sensitive Places Carry Ban Rehearing.”

(https://www.news2a.com/new-jersey/as-carry-permits-surge-new-jersey-begs-court-to-deny-sensitive-

places-carry-ban-rehearing/) So, we’re in the fight, as you know, over the Carry Killer bill, and we’re

trying to get an en banc hearing with a full panel as we’re continuing our fight through the appeals

court, probably eventually heading to the Supreme Court. One of the things I want to point out from the

article, you want to read the article about that whole debate, whole debate over that, about the lawsuit

and its progress go right ahead.

Evan Nappen 17:28

But one tidbit here that I picked up in the article that I just want to share, that I really love. You know,

prior to the Bruen decision in New Jersey, we had approximately 600 civilian carry permits issued,

probably less than 600 for the whole state. The current number of carry permits in New Jersey,

according to this article, which was November 17 of 2025, New Jersey carry permits, now are, issued

carries now, are at 86,656 carries. And that’s according to the state’s own data. Imagine that folks

almost 90,000 and growing. That is how many people wanted to carry. Wanted to be defenders instead

of victims, and were stopped by New Jersey from being able to defend themselves. We’re almost at

90,000. Think of all the people that New Jersey prevented from defending themselves, and how much

blood is on Jersey’s hands of victims who maybe could have saved their lives or saved their loved ones

lives, if they had been allowed to defend themselves. That New Jersey prevented. And now, with a

growth like that, of almost 90,000 and more, the more carry permits out there, the better, because that’s

how we get the Constitutional carry. That is how we get there, and that pattern has been demonstrated

historically over and over again. So, keep getting your permits. More and more permits, more and more

people carrying makes us safer, and it is very encouraging to see that as we continue our fight against

the Second Amendment oppression, folks.

Evan Nappen 19:26

Hey, let me tell you about some very, very big news about our good friends at WeShoot. Listen to this

really exciting news from WeShoot. On December 7, at 10:00 am, WeShoot will be hosting this guy,

whose name is Evan Nappen, and joining Evan Nappen will be Teddy Nappen. We will be there at

WeShoot on Sunday, December 7, right there. We’ll be at Out to Lunch, 264 Cedar Bridge Avenue in

Lakewood. Show up for the event. It’s a great event, and I’ll be there answering all types of questions

about New Jersey gun law. I’d love to meet you and see you. This is also in conjunction with U.S. Law

Shield, and it’s at the Out to Lunch event room. That’s the facility where they’re holding it. At the Out to

Lunch event room at 264 Cedar Bridge Avenue in Lakewood. This is in conjunction with WeShoot and

U.S. Law Shield. So, come there and say hello. I love to always meet my great listeners, and I’ll

probably have some books there as well that I can sign for you. So, stop by, stop by, say hello. It’s

going to be good.

Page – 6 – of 12Evan Nappen 21:00

Also, by the way, WeShoot has some great sales. Their so-called Double-Dipping Sale is back, and

what it allows you to do is get some fantastic discounts. And check out WeShoot. And joining WeShoot.

That membership gets you some great advantages, and they’re offering this week just as some

samples of pretty cool stuff. Bul Armory TAC PRO 4.25″ silver. Now that is a competition tuned stunner

with a crisp two and a half pound trigger, a 20 plus one capacity. But, of course, in New Jersey, you’re

only allowed the 10. With a sleek silver finish that performs as good as it looks. They also have a

Samurai Katana. Now this is not a sword, but named after the sword. It is a uniquely styled, battle

inspired blaster with aggressive lines, custom touches and a serious presence on the range. And don’t

forget, they also have a Smith & Wesson Volunteer XV, which is chambered in 5.56 and ready for

action. It’s a modern sporting rifle with reliability, accuracy and American pride. So, go to WeShoot and

check out all the great guns and gear. You can also get your training. It’s a fantastic range. It’s where

Teddy and I shoot. I’m looking forward to doing this event and seeing all you down there. Go to

weshootusa.com for more information.

Evan Nappen 22:45

And let me also mention our friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which, by the

way, are involved directly in that lawsuit challenging the Carry Killer bill. The very one where the state is

trying to fight us at every turn, including trying to get a full hearing from the appellate court. You want to

be part of that group. You want to be part of the fight. You need to be. The Association of New Jersey

Rifle & Pistol Clubs is your NRA state affiliate. It’s the umbrella organization of gun clubs, and they also

have individual members. And by joining, you become part of the solution. So, go to ANJRPC.org for

more information and being able to join that great group. You’ll be glad you did. You’ll get email alerts of

all the shenanigans taking place in Trenton. And there’s some big stuff that they’re trying to give us a

BOHICA on. You need to be part of the Association, and we can fight it. Really bad stuff is coming

down the pike. Make sure you join anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 24:02

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It

is the book that everybody uses that wants to know about New Jersey gun law, and you can have your

very own copy. It is over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. Just go to EvanNappen.com

and order your copy today. It makes a great gift. And when you get the book, scan the front cover, and

join my private subscriber base. You can immediately access the archive right there, right online. It has

the 2025 Comprehensive Update, where I did chapter updates, bringing everything current. The book

stays current. You can also grab the special standout chapter on “sensitive places”, so you’ll know

where to carry and where you can’t. Great stuff. EvanNappen.com. Check it out. So, Teddy, what do

you have for us today in Press Checks?

Teddy Nappen 25:04

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free, and one of those, you know, it’s like Thanksgivings

rolling around the corner. We’re looking at, you know, what’s coming up. So, perusing through

everyone’s favorite anti-gun group, known as Every Town, they decided to put out hey, you know

what’s really good at Thanksgiving to talk about? Politics!

Page – 7 – of 12Evan Nappen 25:33

Yeah, right.

Teddy Nappen 25:34

Their recommendation, to be with your friends and family, talk about politics. Typically, Thanksgiving is

the perfect time to, quote, unquote, “Debunking Gun Myths at the Dinner Table”.

(https://www.everytown.org/debunking-gun-myths-at-the-dinner-table/)

Evan Nappen 25:51

Oh, my God, they are. They’re the bunch of turkeys.

Teddy Nappen 25:55

Oh yeah, yeah, real gobblers. But.

Evan Nappen 26:01

Good one, man. They are gobblers.

Teddy Nappen 26:03

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 26:04

They’re definitely the world class gobblers.

Teddy Nappen 26:08

Yeah. But I just love how they structure this article. I mean, it’s just. Everyone at home. Please just go

and look at it, and you can laugh, because this is what they did. They highlighted one line of some

argument that is made, or their quote “myth”, and then they argue their “fact” to make the argument.

So, I decided, you know what? If anyone, anyone here who’s at a dinner table and decides to bring up

one of their counters to the gun myth, here is my counter to you. So, let’s go through some of them, and

let’s see some of their facts.

Evan Nappen 26:49

What is, let’s hear their B.S. Go ahead, lay it on us.

Teddy Nappen 26:51

Oh, yeah, yeah. So, one myth, criminals will always find a way to get their hands on a gun. Fact – their

fact. Laws like background checks stop gun sales to criminals every day. Since 1994 these laws have

blocked more than 5 million gun sales to people who could not legally buy a gun.

Evan Nappen 27:16

Hey, that’s why criminals don’t have guns anymore. It was such a success that criminals just can’t get

guns. It’s amazing how effective it’s been.

Page – 8 – of 12Teddy Nappen 27:28

Now let me just highlight to you that the, this is from Every Town, by the way, because I love, I love

using their own sources against them.

Evan Nappen 27:37

Yeah!

Teddy Nappen 27:37

They ranked the states with the most amount of gun control. Top nine: California, Massachusetts,

Illinois, New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, Hawaii, Maryland and Washington. Please let that sink in

and tell me that gun control works in these absolute shit pile of states.

Evan Nappen 28:00

Right! That are the worst. The worst oppression of the Second Amendment in all those places, and they

have the records for the crime. It’s exactly the opposite of what they claim. But why should they tell the

truth? They just have an agenda of wanting to disarm us and make us all victims and take away our

guns.

Teddy Nappen 28:24

Yep. And I love this one. They love this myth. “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.”

Evan Nappen 28:32

Oh, that’s a myth. That’s a myth. I just saw a gun running down the street yesterday. You know,

shooting people. It’s amazing. Yeah. Just guns kill people.

Teddy Nappen 28:41

Yeah. Fact: people kill people, and more efficiently than people without guns. The U.S. gun death rate

is 13 times higher than other higher income countries. Okay, first of all. Logical fallacy alert everybody.

Logical fallacy alert. Mott and Bailey. You’re equating death rates of gun death rates of other countries.

So, first off, pencils give bad grades, apparently. And here in this argument.

Evan Nappen 29:19

And spoons are why The View is fat? Yes, the ladies of The View are fat because of spoons.

Teddy Nappen 29:24

Yeah, the cackling hens, of course. But here’s another statistic, a number, that they like to ignore. This

is from the CDC, 2.5 million lives are saved per year from defensive uses of a firearm.

Evan Nappen 29:40

What does that conveniently ignore, Teddy? I’m sure you know.

Teddy Nappen 29:44

Yeah, just you know, the lives that are saved versus the lives taken.

Page – 9 – of 12Evan Nappen 29:48

Oh, lives saved. Yes, and how many lives are saved with guns?

Teddy Nappen 29:54

Yeah, 2.5 million lives are saved per year with defensive use of a firearm. That is from the CDC

website.

Evan Nappen 30:02

Right! Guns save lives.

Teddy Nappen 30:05

So, we could round it off to 3 million. So, let’s just be fair, 3 million lives, give or take. It’s utter, like they

always say, if it could save one life. Well, I’ve got 3 million.

Evan Nappen 30:16

There you go. There you go.

Teddy Nappen 30:18

It’s just uttered, disgusting.

Evan Nappen 30:21

But that’s why we do the oppo research, and this is what we’re fighting — the propaganda of the gun

rights oppression movement. And we’ve got to keep up the fight. And I tell you what, at Thanksgiving, if

you want to talk guns, that’s fine. Talk guns, talk pro-gun. And if you have somebody that is challenging

you on it, make sure you know the facts and counter them back. This is, you know, most of the time you

just want to enjoy holidays with your family. But unfortunately, every family has some that are

misguided. That don’t understand the importance of our rights and don’t understand the war that is

taking place upon our Constitution. So, if you’re going to talk politics, talk freedom, talk rights, and

defend it vigorously.

Teddy Nappen 31:24

And I will say this one, this one absolutely angers me. I always see them try, and I love this. The only

way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. That’s their “myth”, and if more guns

everywhere made safe, America would be the safest country on Earth. Instead, we have the gun

homicide rate 26 time higher than higher income countries. What are higher income countries?

Whatever. So, it’s something that is very, first of all, reverse Nirvana fallacy. Logical fallacy alert. If we

got rid of all the guns, there would be no death, no murder. All right. The number, except the number

one killer, the number one killer of children is accidents. And, quite frankly, the number one killer of

mass shooters. You know what kills them? Guns!

Evan Nappen 32:21

Right. That’s what stops them.

Page – 10 – of 12Teddy Nappen 32:23

Yeah, even if they shoot.

Evan Nappen 32:25

The reason a good guy with a gun is far from being a myth and is a fact. Is that any logical, reasonable

person can individually appreciate that very fact. Because I’ll tell you right now, I’d rather have a gun

and not need it than need a gun and not have it. And that need a gun aspect is what we’re talking

about. Because when there’s a bad guy with a gun, you need a gun to stop that bad guy. I don’t care

about statistics. I really don’t. I care about me being able to defend myself and my loved ones, and if

somebody else is threatening me, it is a firearm that I need to have the most effective means of self-

defense. So, when you distill it down to our own personal interests, which is what rights are all about,

it’s about our individual rights, my individual right, your individual right to defend ourselves and not be

victims of criminals. And I’ll tell you right now. A good guy with a gun beats a bad guy with a gun every

time, and what’s no good at all is a bad guy with a gun and a good guy who has no means of self-

defense. You want to really be in a lousy spot. That’s the lousy spot to be in. The bad guy with a gun

and you have no means of defense, so you don’t even have to step into statistics. Don’t even need it.

Teddy Nappen 33:56

Yeah, and that lousy spot, look at Britain, where the massive raping gangs all across. It took a little girl

to defend herself with a hatchet and a knife. You look to Australia, with all the rampant crime of assault,

theft, rape going all these quote, unquote, high income countries, you know what we have that’s

different. We’re allowed to actually defend ourselves and not be prosecuted where you have no right to

defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 34:23

Because part of the Second Amendment is also a Constitutional right to self-defense. And you know,

sometimes you hear the antis even point to Japan. They say, look, the raid in Japan where they banned

guns is so much less than the U.S. Well, Japan, first of all, is a very homogeneous population, right, of

Japanese. But here’s the real kicker that they don’t tell you. The percentage of violent crime amongst

Japanese-Americans who have access to firearms is even less than that of the Japanese country,

Japanese. So, you know, Japanese-Americans, it’s even lower. They have access to guns. So, it’s not

really about the guns. It’s about the culture. And if you step back and say, hey, where are these really

bad states, where is the really bad crime problems? And then you see it’s urban more than anything,

and it’s urban culture more than anything. But once you start talking about having to change culture, oh,

the Left doesn’t want to hear about that. It doesn’t want to hear. They’d rather blame the inanimate

object and go after our ability to defend ourselves.

Teddy Nappen 35:40

I also like how they always try to compare Japan. I’m like, Oh, really. And how do you feel about their

immigration policies? Because I agree with those.

Evan Nappen 35:50

That’s a whole other thing.

Page – 11 – of 12Teddy Nappen 35:52

They always like to pick and choose those things, don’t they?

Evan Nappen 35:55

Yeah, that’s pretty funny. They sure do. Well, Teddy, I want to tell you about this week’s GOGU, which

is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And we always love talking about the GOFU because these are expensive

lessons learned by actual individuals with actual cases. We don’t want any of our listeners to be

GOFUs and that’s why we talk about them. So, this is your chance to learn for free, expensive lessons.

The GOFU this week is about trying to get gun information from the internet. Listen, folks, gun law

information. Gun law information. You have to be extremely careful with AI and Google and all this. I

get clients that have looked at the Internet for their information, and it couldn’t be further from the actual

law. It is very dangerous to rely on anything you get out of the internet. It is full of falsehoods, full of

blatant fantasies, full of misinformation that gets put forward as actual law. And I have clients that have

unfortunately gotten themselves into trouble because they followed what they just read from doing a

simple search online. And that’s not going to get you the answers you need. When you need to know a

gun law answer, you need to go to a gun law attorney. An attorney that knows and understands the gun

laws. Go to my book, go to actual, proven authoritative sources. When you rely on the internet, you are

at risk. And it never ceases to amaze me as to the absolute B.S. that gets put out there. And what’s

really is sad is when a gun owner relies on it to their detriment. Don’t be that GOFU, folks.

Evan Nappen 38:09

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 38:20

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 12 – of 12

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E265_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 264-Just How F’d up is New JerseyAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 264 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey gun laws, Second Amendment, gun ownership, permit system, disqualifiers, red flag laws, extreme risk protection order, duty to warn, sensitive places, gun seizure, gun rights, gun safety, gun legislation, gun advocacy, gun rights groups.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, not too long ago, I was on a trip and met some folks, not from New Jersey. They were from part of Free America, so to speak. I might call them Bennies. Well, I’m talking Free America, not even Bennies, but you know, places where they have Constitutional carry and where the Second Amendment is not focused for oppression, but, in fact, focused on trying to maximize and protect Second Amendment rights. And one of the things that was brought up to me by the other folks is, you know, they’ve heard New Jersey is bad on guns, right? The reputation of New Jersey has spread throughout America and actually beyond America, for that matter. And they wanted to know, in so many words, just how effed up is New Jersey. And I decided, you know, not only did I explain to them just how effed up New Jersey is, but I realized that this is something that really needs to be stated and talked about.

Evan Nappen 01:48
I wanted to spend this part of the show on that very topic. Just how effed up New Jersey is. I mean, I know we live and deal with the BS of New Jersey and their Second Amendment oppression. And we constantly are talking about the issues that occur. But you know, for those that might not fully understand it or even see the big picture of just how effed up New Jersey is, I want to paint that. I want to lay that out here, and that’s what I’m going to do in the same way as these folks asked me that question. I wanted to fully explain it to them, because they really wanted to know in a more detailed understanding from somebody who has spent their adult life battling New Jersey’s Second Amendment oppression and dealing with the realities of a state that hates guns and hates gun owners. So, that’s the basic starting point.
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Evan Nappen 02:55
But anyway, let’s talk about our issue, though, about guns. So, they hate guns, and they hate gun owners. They’ve done everything in their power to try to continue that hate and make it have force and effect on us. So, how do they do that? Well, first, they establish an attitude and an agenda. So, the attitude and the agenda is to disenfranchise as many people as they can from their gun rights. Set up a system to do that. Steal as many guns from people, as you can, based on any mechanism they can invent to take them. Go after the industry and the folks that are lawful dealers and suppliers. Make and turn gun owners in a projection of being crazy, of being killers, of being individuals that are a detriment and a danger to everyone and society. And so, they put that as their base, and they promote it in every possible way they can.

Evan Nappen 02:55
You have to first understand that before you even talk about the specific areas of New Jersey and just how bad they are. You have to understand that there’s a baseline, and the baseline is New Jersey hates guns and New Jersey hates gun owners. And you have to accept that. Now, you may not believe it. You may try to say, no, no. They’re misguided, or they’re well intentioned and all. But, you know, I’ve come to really understand, folks, that that’s not the case. It is hatred based. It is based in hate. And much of the Left’s policies are based in hate. I mean, you see it. They’re hate driven people. I mean, they are. They’re hate driven and we, as conservatives and Republicans, actually try to be love driven, honestly. We try to love freedom and love our fellow humans. Try to love, you know, the unborn, try to love. We try to put out love, and the other side puts out hate primarily. And yet, they try to paint us as the haters, but that’s because they’re experts in projection.

Evan Nappen 03:13
So, let’s start by taking a look at the gun laws themselves. The first thing they want to do is create a system where you have the most onerous requirements to even become a gun owner that they can possibly get away with. So, in order to do that, well, we’ll start with having permit and licensing systems. So, you know, we can always, oh, look, having a gun license is reasonable. Having a permit is reasonable. We just want to make sure people that have firearms are safe. And, you know, they sell the standard reasonableness to sell their extremism. Okay, so they do that. New Jersey has a permit system that is outrageous in the questions that it asks, the depths that it will go, and the hoops that individuals must jump through in order to lawfully possess firearms. Now, the amazing thing is, we put up with it, don’t we? We deal with it. We get our Firearms Purchaser ID card. We get a Pistol Purchase Permit for every handgun that we want to buy in New Jersey. We go through it. We actually not only put up with everything to get a carry permit, but we can actually finally get a carry permit. Prior to Bruen, it was virtually unobtainable.

Evan Nappen 03:13
But what’s involved in getting those licenses? Well, all of the gun licenses in New Jersey, all of them, the Firearm ID Card, the Permit to Purchase and the Carry Permit, all have a base of disqualifiers under N.J.S. 2C:58-3. These are all the ways that you can be disqualified to being licensed in New Jersey. And the average person might think, oh, they just don’t want convicted felons to have guns, right? Well, of course, New Jersey prohibits felons from having guns, but not just felons. Anyone with domestic violence misdemeanors. So, they expand it to misdemeanors. Then, of course, it’s anybody
Page – 2 – of 13
with a conviction from outside of New Jersey, even if it was a misdemeanor, and even if it’s not domestic violence. If it carries over one year jail outside New Jersey, then you’re prohibited in New Jersey, even though you wouldn’t be prohibited under Federal law. And if you’re convicted in New Jersey of any offense that for which was over six months, where you could have received over six months jail, you are per se disqualified. Just like a felon.

Evan Nappen 04:05
So, you see, they’ve expanded the reasonable, “reasonable”, violent felon to not having to be a violent felon. Being many things other than what might traditionally be viewed as felons. And that’s just on felons. They also go through your background, and they will see if you’ve ever just simply had arrests. If you’ve been charged, even though it was dismissed. Charged – even though you were found not guilty and acquitted any of the charges. And they’ll look at the charges, you were just charged, even though you were never convicted, never found guilty. As a matter of fact, you were even acquitted. And they will still say, oh, well, you’re disqualified from having a gun license based on Public Health, Safety, and Welfare. So, that’s the all inclusive miscellaneous weasel clause that the issuing authorities get to use, so that they can hang their hat on anything they feel like, basically, and say, oh, you’re not safe to have guns because you had an arrest for some offense that you were acquitted for. But we’ve read the police report about what was alleged, and we don’t care that you were not guilty of it. We’re going to say that that makes you somehow a danger, and we see that all the time. We see the abuse of it. So, much that we have data to show that that very section is abused, even with institutionalized racism. Where blacks are more than two and a half to one to whites denied for that reason, that arbitrary public health safety reason that they can get away with anything that they pull out of their ass to try to claim is a basis to disqualify you.

Evan Nappen 09:51
So, that is baked into the cake. And that’s just touching the surface. Because then any mental health commitment at all, even a voluntary one, where you just checked in because you were sad or somebody maybe passed away, or you just had a moment of anxiety, whatever, if you have any kind of mental health commitment. Then they go beyond that even commitment, and say, have you ever been treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist for any mental or physical treatment, now that becomes a bar or a potential bar to you exercising your Second Amendment rights. All this is baked into 58-3. This is the standard that applies to all the licenses, and these are just a few of the disqualifiers. If you have a restraining order on you, or have ever had one, then they look and say, oh, well, look, you had unfounded restraining orders. At least the court determined that. But it doesn’t matter. You had this crazy ex-girlfriend at the time that put these on you, and we’re going to say that makes you a danger to Public Health, Safety, and Welfare. So, you get denied for that dismissed TRO. We’ve seen that over and over again.

Evan Nappen 11:03
So, you have all these disqualifiers in New Jersey. Are you an unlawful user of any kind of drugs? Even though New Jersey has legalized marijuana, the Feds create a problem that creates a conflict there. And then, New Jersey will sometimes even jump on it weirdly and say, well, yeah, you’re using legal marijuana. New Jersey says it’s legal, but we’ll deny you, because the feds say that you can’t. So we say you can’t, too, even though we say you can in the state. What is that? That’s just insanity. And
Page – 3 – of 13
again, we’ve run into that. I mean, it goes to a situation of New Jersey knows no bounds when it comes just to denying you getting your gun license. And so that’s what the foundation for just getting your ability to purchase. Go ahead, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 11:59
I was going to say you called it a long time ago, where you said, like, at this point, just New Jersey can come out and say, you know, death penalty to gun owners. And then, sure enough, they raised the level for them with the assault weapon law. If you’re caught with.

Evan Nappen 12:13 Oh, yeah.

Teddy Nappen 12:13
Assault firearm in New Jersey, it’s a first degree. So, yeah, they really.

Evan Nappen 12:17
We haven’t even, right? Well, we haven’t even gotten to that yet, but at this point, I’m confident eventually they will, because their hatred has no bounds. But now, putting aside just the insanity of being able to get licensed in New Jersey and everything you have to do to get to that and get through all their obstacles that they put in the way, plus paying the fees to do it, plus waiting the exorbitant amount of time it takes to get approved and filling out and doing the application and all the time consuming obstacles they put there. Plus requiring the training and photographs and references and everything they can pile on to discourage you, even with all that, we still in New Jersey plow through it and still get our permits. Still get our guns. Even though so many people have to fight, fight, fight, to make it happen.

Evan Nappen 13:18
Then once you have them, now New Jersey’s focus is, how can we steal your guns away and get you disenfranchised. Take away your license. Get you revoked. So, they have a series of legal mechanisms that are set up to do that. They have what’s called Red Flag or called ERPO, Extreme Risk Protection Order where anyone can make a claim that you’re somehow a danger. And then, without you having any say in the matter whatsoever, they take your guns, file this order, and you have to go to court. And then you finally get your due process. Finally, after there’s been no due process for you. You have to fight to get your rights back. And then the battle begins there. They also have Duty to Warn. That’s where if you tell any medical professional, a doctor, a nurse, therapist, anyone, that you in any way want to harm yourself or others. And I mean even as a joke or even as hyperbole. You know, oh man, I could kill that guy, or I’m so mad, I could, you know, harm him, harm myself. Even as a joke. Or, you know, it’s like making a bomb joke at the airport. If you do that, boom, they’re obligated to call the police. Your guns are going to be taken, and you’re going to end up having to fight to get your rights back.

Evan Nappen 14:37
Anytime there’s any allegation of domestic violence, no matter how unfounded, it’s baked into the cake. Built right into the form of the Temporary Restraining Order, pre-printed. All the judge has to do is click
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the box and basically write in there the address so that your guns will be seized pursuant to the TRO, and you’re required to surrender them. So, there’s another mechanism. Then they have the other mechanism that I see, and that’s called pulling it out of their ass. Where the police just take all the guns, for a “safe keeping”, without any statutory basis or court order. And we see that happen all the time. So, it’s one thing to get all licensed and get your guns, then we see New Jersey going to take your guns.

Evan Nappen 15:18
New Jersey passes all different matrix of laws that you have to follow in order to lawfully keep your guns. So, there are 25 plus different “sensitive places” if you’re going to carry. Requirements on holsters. Requirements to tell the officer that you’re carrying a gun, if you’re carrying a gun (Duty to Disclose). Requirements on the size of the magazine, right? It went from 15, then went to 10. And, you know, they’re deciding how many bullets your life is worth. And making all these things, by the way, felonies. Felony level offenses. So, if you have a mag that holds 11 rounds instead of 10, it’s a fourth degree level felony. You’re looking at a year and a half in State Prison. You lose your gun rights. You become a convicted felon. You not only lose your gun rights for New Jersey, but also for the entire United States because you’re now a convicted felon under New Jersey’s insane gun laws. So, they’ve disenfranchised you nationally, not just state side, of your rights.

Evan Nappen 16:20
New Jersey also makes many of these gun offenses incredibly serious. They raised them to levels unheard of – Second Degree. They combine what is minimum mandatory prison sentences so that the judge has no discretion whatsoever. If you’re outside of your lawful ability to possess due to an honest mistake, oh, well, three and a half years minimum mandatory in States Prison for you. Too bad. It doesn’t matter that you have no priors. It doesn’t matter one bit. The judge loses all discretion. It’s required with no way out from under should you become convicted. Then they combine that into the Gun Owner Gulag, where, when you get charged with any of these things, now, the state tries to hold you pending your trial, which can months and months. It could be years. And they’re looking to enhance the Gun Owner Gulag and create presumptions requiring you to remain incarcerated until your trial. Proven guilty of nothing. We deal with these Gulag cases. We’ve discussed them and just how horrible it is in New Jersey. And so, they gulag the gun owners. They want to incarcerate the gun owners. They want to take away their rights. They want to disenfranchise, and they want to steal the firearms. Keep them and forfeit them. They want to turn gun owners into criminals. They want to make them into felons. So, they not only lose their gun rights, but also the right to vote. This is the system that is New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 17:50
This is just an overview of just how effed up New Jersey is, and I see it every day in the practice of gun law. You have to be tough, strong and smart to remain a gun owner in New Jersey. You are, frankly, putting yourself at risk being a gun owner in New Jersey to the system trying to destroy you. But those that believe in their self-defense rights, their rights to have a firearm, still exercise it. Despite the hatred that we deal with emanating from New Jersey.
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Evan Nappen 18:36
And now with this election, the hatred is going to continue, and it’s going to get worse, folks. It’s going to get worse. There are bills pending now that went halfway through the legislature, and we expect to see a big fight. If these other bills go through, they’re going to make the Gulag even worse and virtually automatic on every gun owner to be held pending their trial. There are bills there to turn accidental discharge, which is already aggressively enforced under current law, into what will be a per se offense. A felony, per se. With any AD, you’re looking at felony charges and being put in the Gulag, losing your gun rights. New Jersey’s march to insanity. And I still didn’t even touch the Platkin office where they’re civilly going after retail dealers, gun makers, and manufacturers. Trying to litigate them out of existence, trying to find every way to loophole around the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) designed to try to stop the very thing that New Jersey’s engaging in. The very thing they’re engaging in. They’re trying to litigate them out of existence.

Evan Nappen 19:51
It’s on every front that we’re in a fight for our rights, and New Jersey has no respect. It should be the opposite. They should do everything they can to protect, preserve and respect our Second Amendment rights. But no. It is exactly what they’re not doing. This, my friends, is how effed up New Jersey is. It’s just an overview of what Gun Lawyer deals with all the time in the practice of law. And even though I’ve laid this all out, please keep up the fight. Stay strong, stay smart. We’re going to eventually win. The Constitution is on our side. It’s taking time. It’s going to take effort. But we’ve got the tools federally to finally crush New Jersey and what they’ve done to us for decades upon decades. The height of the fight is here and now, but I do believe the future will be tremendously better for us. It will be. But getting there is going to take standing strong.

Evan Nappen 21:08
And, of course, one of the ways we do that is by unity. By making sure you’re part of groups that fight for our rights. In unity there is strength. And in New Jersey, the number one gun rights group is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the official NRA affiliate. They are the state affiliate. They are also the umbrella organization of the gun clubs of New Jersey. They also have individual members of which you need to be one. They’re there on the front lines. They’re there in Trenton, keeping a full-time paid lobbyist there on guard so that we can take action. And even though the odds are against us, we still can win. We still can and will win. Part of that battle is having a great group like Association. So, make sure you belong to ANJRPC.org. They’re also in the courts, litigating, fighting. We’re going to see court cases that the Association is part of finally getting to the stage of tremendous impact by reaching the Supreme Court. I’m confident that we will see that. There are so many cases heading there. The Supreme Court already has picked to hear two more gun cases, and we’re going to see more and more gun cases. It will be through the enforcement of our Second Amendment right that we finally stop what has been an atrocity by the State of New Jersey over a Constitutional right. And it’s through your State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, that you can see that happen. (anjrpc.org)

Evan Nappen 22:53
And let me also tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood. They’re an indoor range. It’s the place where Teddy and I both shoot. They are very dynamic and doing a lot of
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great things. And one of the things I want to point out that they have going on, and you may be very interested in this, is that on November 20, they will be holding the Diversity Shoot. That’s right. A Diversity Shoot that’s with my friend Tony Simon. It’s the 2A4E Diversity Shoot. It is an outreach of true diversity, because the Second Amendment is for everyone. Okay? That’s what 2A4E means. The Second Amendment is for everyone. And so, let me put it this way. Do you have a friend who’s been wanting to try, let’s say shooting, but is full of excuses? Go to Tony Simon, at WeShoot on November 20 for the Diversity Shoot. All are welcome. Tony is just great to be with. He’s very entertaining, and you will see cutting edge technology. There’ll be free pizza and other refreshments there, and it’s an all inclusive day. They provide everything – the range time and targets and rentals and more. I mean, think about it, pizza and shooting. How can it get any better than that? And Tony will be there. So, think about participating in the WeShoot Diversity Shoot. It’s outreach, and it’s critical.

Evan Nappen 24:47
Because everybody that overcomes the stereotypical media portrayal of a gun owner, every time we do that, we have another person with a vested interest in our Second Amendment rights and has been able to cut through the media BS narrative about guns. They realize that firearms as a right is there for a reason. It’s there to protect you and protect the ones you love. Those that would find a diversity shoot the most helpful are often those that need the protection the most. So, learn and discover the truth by participating November 20 in the WeShoot Diversity Shoot. Going to the WeShoot range. They have training, a great facility, and they welcome all shooters. They welcome all to exercise your Second Amendment right in New Jersey. So, check them out at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 26:08
And speaking of just how effed up New Jersey is, one of the ways to navigate through the treachery that is New Jersey is, with my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s set up purposely to help maintain our ability to be lawful gun owners in the face of New Jersey’s attack and hatred upon us. And I wrote it for just that reason, even though it’s used by state police, judges, lawyers, but thousands of gun owners to stay legal. I explain what you need to know in a question and answer format with over 120 topics. And when you get the book, scan the front cover and make sure you get part of my free subscriber base. You can immediately access the archives that include the 2025 Comprehensive Update, which has full chapters updated, including a bonus chapter on “sensitive places”. I broke out the sensitive places so you know where you can and can’t carry to simplify that matrix for you. To get your copy, go to EvanNappen.com. Evan nappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Just click it and buy it. You’ll be glad you did. Hey, Teddy, what do you got for us today in Press Checks?

Teddy Nappen 27:44
Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. And going into what you have talked about, the whole warfare, and I’m calling it warfare, because the left are the party of violence, changed my mind. I’ve seen all this stuff on that, but this seems to be the newest push. I was scrolling through and found this one from, I believe, it was from the Wall Street Journal. “Six Words Every Killer Should Know: ‘I Feared For My Life, Officer.” (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/six-words-every-killer-should- know-i-feared-for-my-life-officer/ar-AA1PnHC0) Okay, first of all, South Park already did this joke. It’s called, he’s coming right for us. Like, secondly. What? And going into this whole article there, this entire
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thing is an anti-stand your ground argument that they go into. Just the utter insanity of actually defending. They find it is shameful. And here I’ll even read it to you. “It’s easier than ever to kill someone in America and get away with it.”

Evan Nappen 28:57 Oh, God.

Teddy Nappen 28:58
Okay then. In 30 states, it’s often required only to claim you killed someone while protecting yourself or others. Well, I mean, typically people will make that argument if they were trying to protect someone else or yourself, like.

Evan Nappen 29:17
Well, that’s because it’s called a lawful use of force.

Teddy Nappen 29:21 Oh, my God.

Evan Nappen 29:22 Big shock.

Teddy Nappen 29:23
Like, that’s how the law works.

Evan Nappen 29:25 Yeah. Almost.

Teddy Nappen 29:26
Like, yeah, God, these people, and then.

Evan Nappen 29:30
They’re conflating the Stand Your Ground and such with.

Teddy Nappen 29:36 Correct.

Evan Nappen 29:37 Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 29:37
Oh, and then they highlight it. While Americans have long been free to use deadly force to defend themselves at home, so-called Stand Your Ground laws in those 30 states extend the legal protections. So, first off, the logical fallacy right here, where they’re trying to equate inside the home versus outside
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the home. You have a right to defend yourself outside your home. It doesn’t stop. Like, what? Is every murderer like, oh, we got to wait till he gets out of the house or he’ll have a good defense.

Evan Nappen 30:14
Okay, okay, okay. Let me, I have to clarify this, Teddy. This is really critical for folks. I even have folks that have called me, that have bought into the media narrative on this, which could almost be detrimental to them. Here’s the deal. Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground is not the requirement that you must meet in order to be justified in your use of deadly force. All castle doctrine and all stand your ground doctrine, all they have to do with is the duty to retreat. Okay? The duty to retreat. That’s it. The duty to retreat is an exception, an exception now, to your lawful ability to use deadly force. So, in other words, the law lays out your ability to use deadly force. You can use deadly force when there’s a reasonable fear, risk of serious bodily injury, or death to you, and you’re reasonable in that use of force, et cetera. Then the law says, however. However, if you can retreat with complete safety, then you can’t and should not, and you’re not justified in using that force. So, in other words, if you can retreat with complete safety, then you’re not justified in using force. Otherwise, you’re justified in using force. So, castle doctrine says, in your home, you don’t have to retreat. Stand your ground says, if you’re in a place where you lawfully can be, you don’t have to retreat. All it does is remove the duty to retreat.

Evan Nappen 32:00
Yet that entire argument about retreat is virtually an argument of silliness. And the reason I say silly is because you have to be able to retreat with complete safety. Tell me how you retreat from a situation where you’re facing serious bodily injury or death with complete safety. Other than, you know, beam me up, Scotty, there’s no complete safety anyway. So, where are they going with it? And as you said, Teddy. You still have a right to use deadly force. The only question is, did you have a duty to retreat? Well, you only have a duty to retreat if you can do so with complete safety. You definitely have no duty to retreat in your home, that’s castle doctrine. And with stand your ground, you have no duty to retreat if you are in a place that you have a right to be. New Jersey does not have “stand your ground”. It does not have that. But even without stand your ground, it doesn’t mean you lose your right to use deadly force. You just can’t use it if you can retreat with complete safety. So, that is the explanation of that. But go ahead, Teddy. I wanted to clarify because we see a lot of confusion.

Teddy Nappen 33:17
I find that very important, because, by the way, the article doesn’t even mention that distinction.

Evan Nappen 33:23
Right? Why would they do that? Why would they do that?

Teddy Nappen 33:27
Hmmm. It goes on. It gets worse, and this is one thing it highlights, which I laughed at. Justifiable homicides by civilians have increased 59% from 2019 through 2024.

Evan Nappen 33:43 Well, that’s a good thing.
Page – 9 – of 13
Teddy Nappen 33:44 Of city, so let me.

Evan Nappen 33:46
That’s a really good thing. Notice that first word, “justifiable” homicide. Well, great. I’m glad they were justified. That meant, if they didn’t have the firearm, they would have been dead, right? They would have faced. Here’s man, yeah, right, come on.

Teddy Nappen 34:03
Here’s the reword of it. Lawful individuals defended their home and shot the criminal who was.

Evan Nappen 34:12
Precisely, precisely. In other words, there’s been an upkeep of lawful self-defense. God bless. Great. Yeah, hallelujah. As well there should be. I’m glad to see it. Every lawful self-defender being a defender and no longer a victim.

Teddy Nappen 34:29
Yeah, and I love. And then, of course, they go with the with more guns in more hands, families are grieving over loved ones lost to quick tempered killings, often involving law-abiding civilians, with no one held accountable. Often, oh, often.

Evan Nappen 34:49
Oh, how often. No one held accountable. That’s right. Yeah, because our, you know, the system just ignores dead people all the time. No. What they, what they used to do is ignore victims, okay? And once victims are no longer victims but defenders, they look real close at what defenders do. They look very closely. And if defenders are justified, then that’s what it’s for. That’s what it’s about. That is the proper use of gun violence. That’s where I’m in favor of gun violence when it’s justified by lawful defenders. Bring on the gun violence.

Teddy Nappen 35:37
Yeah, and I love how they and I got to meet this guy, the authors, Mark Maremont and Paul Overberg. The story because, you know, they have to cherry pick. That’s the game they always play. The story they chose is the worst example. So, here, in De Leon Springs, Florida, this Edward Druzolowski, 78 years old, is watching football. And his neighbor, a 42 years old, and his son, comes on to his property. He’s cutting branches, and he has a chainsaw in his hand. So, he comes on to the other guy’s property with a chainsaw. Now, bear in mind, the other guy who was named Ford, was screaming profanity, yelling curses at Druzolowski who told him to get off his property.

Evan Nappen 36:35
So, wait. You got a crazy guy on meth with a chainsaw?

Teddy Nappen 36:42 Correct.
Page – 10 – of 13
Evan Nappen 36:43
And he was coming at a guy on his property.

Teddy Nappen 36:48 Swearing at him.

Evan Nappen 36:49
Didn’t they do like a movie about that?

Teddy Nappen 36:51
Yeah. No, yeah. It’s leather face. Like they’re arguing that, I love this guy.

Evan Nappen 36:59
So, if you’re attacked by leather face, they think that’s a problem in using deadly force on leather face?

Teddy Nappen 37:06
Like I told him to get off my property. He didn’t. That guy was coming, walking at me. He was coming right at me, walking at me with a chainsaw. So, I shot him. Like, oh my god, the level of insanity. And then the judge later dismisses the case in Florida because of the Stand Your Ground laws, citing to such forces reasonably necessary to defend yourself against Mr. Ford’s imminent use of unlawful force. Okay? Charging at a man with a chainsaw.

Evan Nappen 37:37
Right. But keep in mind that, being called stand your ground, that itself, though, isn’t really about the Stand Your Ground portion so much. In other words, yeah, he didn’t have a duty to retreat because Florida says you don’t have to retreat if you in a place that you have a right to be. But it’s more than that. He defended himself against a crazed meth guy with a chainsaw, trying to relive, you know, a classic horror movie on it, on this guy’s ass, right? And he’s like, no, and you’re going to tell me, even without stand your ground, how the hell are you going to get away with complete safety from a crazed meth guy with a chainsaw after you? With complete safety? Are you going to turn your back and try to run from that guy? Really? What if you trip? What if you fall? We’re talking in complete safety. Where’s the safety? Not a chance, not a chance. So, I’m glad they looked at it. They’re putting it under this banner of stand your ground, but in reality, what was it? It was justifiable. Because he was justified in using deadly force based on the threat that was coming at the would-be victim. That’s how it works. That’s why.

Teddy Nappen 38:59
And it’s one of those that. And then, of course, they have to go with this. And this kind of reminds me, Dad, I believe it was it when you debated, who was it fire, or who was the one guy where? Where the where the lady was like, if two kids came in into your home, Mr. Nappen, and was stealing your food, would you shoot them? Like, no. Are they running away? Are they not threatening me? No, they’re just stealing the food and running away. Well, then I’m not going to shoot them.
Page – 11 – of 13
Evan Nappen 39:31
Well, wait, what if it was pork roll?

Teddy Nappen 39:33 I know, right?

Evan Nappen 39:34
Or Taylor, ham, either one.

Teddy Nappen 39:36
Who would eat that? That’s gross.

Speaker 1 39:38
Uh, well, like, I hear you.

Teddy Nappen 39:44
They have this argument. Like, what if I’m in the 10 items or less line and I have 15 items. And the shopper shoves me in line, shoves me. Can I shoot him?

Evan Nappen 39:56
Is there a threat of serious bodily harm? No. Don’t. They don’t reach the standard reason for use of deadly force. Come on, of course not.

Teddy Nappen 40:03
Yeah. And that part that they like to hide, does he think? Like, it’s always blood in the streets. They always argue that it’s going to be the wild west.

Evan Nappen 40:11
BITS. Blood In The Streets. Bits, always the BITS argument. Bits, bits, bits. Yeah. Well, Teddy the time has come for the segment that everybody wants to know, and that is the GOFU. That’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And the GOFUs are mistakes made by real people in real cases that we see. We want you to learn on the cheap, lessons that these folks have learned expensively. So, this is important. This GOFU that I want to talk about here has to do with storing your guns in your own safe. I’ve been seeing a lot of this. A lot of folks out there, you know, have a gun safe, which is good. You have a gun safe, but in your gun safe, you have your guns, your spouse’s guns, your son’s guns, everybody’s guns is all stuffed in the same safe. Well, that means everybody’s accessing everybody else’s guns. And that’s not good. It’s not good legally speaking. Because they can try to allege unlawful acquisition or transfers, especially if anybody there ends up developing an issue that may preclude them.

Evan Nappen 41:33
We also run into it where if all the guns are in a safe. If one person in the household has an issue and they want to seize that person’s guns, the safe gets opened by law enforcement. And everybody’s guns are getting seized. Plus, if there’s issues as to even the legality of the safe itself being opened, and one
Page – 12 – of 13
of the people in the house consent to it, even though they shouldn’t have, then everybody’s guns get seized and the person. So, there’s a lot of reasons. And the GOFU is, don’t have one safe that has everybody guns in one safe. Everybody should have their own gun safe, their own locked safe. Whatever you’re using that has your own guns in it, do not have a communal gun safe in New Jersey. It is a problem, arguably, under the law as to gun possession. But it also makes you more vulnerable when it comes to New Jersey trying to seize and steal guns from individuals. Have your own gun safe, folks. Don’t commit the GOFU of a communal gun safe.

Evan Nappen 42:48
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 42:59
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page – 13 – of 13

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E264_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 263-The Recipe for FreedomAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 263 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, First Amendment, gun rights, UK gun laws, gunpowder recipe, terrorism,

extended license, Serious Crime Prevention order, New Jersey gun laws, Black Books, improvised

munitions, school shootings, armed teachers, gun control, gun owner rights.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Speaker 2, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:14

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:16

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:17

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Folks, we need to get back to basics. When I talk about basics, I’m

talking about our basic Constitutional rights. It’s really always important to step back and understand

that the entire Bill of Rights is what protects us as gun owners. We love and cherish the Second

Amendment, but all the Amendments go to work protecting us, and ultimately our gun rights as well.

And directly tied in is, of course, our First Amendment rights. Freedom of speech. The ability to

communicate, as we do on the show. Fourth Amendment, protecting our property, search and seizure

from the Government. Fifth Amendment against self-crimination. Sixth Amendment, for example, right

to an attorney. The very thing that Gun Lawyer is about. These are all critical and important.

Evan Nappen 01:12

And every time I look and I see other countries that aren’t blessed with a Bill of Rights to the

Constitution and you see the abuse that takes place, you just have to point it out. Because we are

blessed to live in the United States and to have these rights. And to not only have these rights, but to

utilize these rights. So, I just caught a story here that I want to share with you. This is from Bearing

Arms, and it is about, the title is “UK Man Arrested for Possessing Gun Powder Recipe”. It’s by Tom

Knighton. (https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2025/11/04/uk-man-arrested-for-possessing-

gunpowder-recipe-n1230487) And you know, this article is based off an article that appeared in the UK

Defense Journal by Craig Langford, and it was dated November 2.

(https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/leeds-man-jailed-for-possessing-gunpowder-recipe/)

Evan Nappen 02:08

Get a load of this, folks. The UK has gone so far out of control when it comes to no even illusion of

having the rights that you and I take for granted every day. Here is just a great example of it, and right

Page – 1 – of 10from this article. It says a 49 year old man from Leeds has been sentenced to three years and nine

months in prison for possessing a handwritten recipe for gun powder. That’s right.

Teddy Nappen 02:48

Was his name Guy Fawkes?

Evan Nappen 02:51

That’s a good one, Teddy. But it was just a recipe for gun powder, and he was sentenced here,

because he’s going to serve an additional four years on extended license. I guess it’s like a probation

as well after or parole. I’m not a UK attorney. But then he will be subject to Serious Crime Prevention

Order for five years. So, he has this other order hanging over his head as well, along with terrorism

notification requirements for 10 years. Because he admitted, this guy, (Paul) Gilleard, admitted to

possessing information likely to be useful, useful, to someone committing or preparing an act of

terrorism Under Section 58 of the Terrorism Act. The document was discovered at his home during an

intelligence-led search by West Yorkshire Police on May 28. Detective Chief Superintendent James

Dunkerley, head of Counter Terrorism, in a statement, said officers were concerned to discover a

handwritten recipe for black powder during a search of Gilleard’s home in May. A recipe, later verified

by experts as potentially viable. Can you believe this, folks? And then the chief added, possessing

information about the manufacture of explosives will always raise serious questions. And Gilleard has

chosen not to explain or defend the presence of the recipe in his home. Instead, he pleaded guilty to

possessing information useful to a person preparing for an act of terrorism. Can you believe this?

Evan Nappen 04:49

I mean, look at the lack of rights in the UK. First of all, lack of rights concerning possession of

information, folks. We have a First Amendment right. If you want to possess the recipe, the information

on how to make gunpowder, you may do so in the U.S. You can go online right now, go to wiki How. It

explains in detail how to make gunpowder. You can watch the damn Star Trek episode with Kirk, where

he’s fighting that monster and actually makes gunpowder in the episode, remember that one? I mean,

come on. The recipe for gunpowder is criminalized by having just the knowledge? It didn’t say he did

anything. It didn’t say he was charged with using it or even attempting to use it. Just having the

information, folks. Criminalizing information.

Evan Nappen 05:51

You may say, well, good thing that can’t happen here. Yet, New Jersey is already doing it. Not to this

extreme, but doing it. By banning information that can show, computer information, on how to build a

firearm. On how to make or 3D printed gun. The mere possession of that data. So, don’t think it can’t

happen here to this extreme. It can. Furthermore, he (Gilleard) is being convicted here. This is right

from the article. According to the Chief, because what does it say? Gilleard has chosen not to explain

or defend the presence of the recipe. Oh, we have this little thing in America called the Fifth

Amendment, a right. You have no obligation to explain crap in America. You don’t have to explain a

thing. If you want to have the recipe for gunpowder, you can have the recipe for gunpowder. You don’t

have to explain why you have it. Can you imagine this is what these people live under in that police

state? It is insane.

Page – 2 – of 10Evan Nappen 07:06

And yet we are right on the fringes now of suffering under the same fate. We already see examples of

it, just not to this extreme. We’re seeing the weaponization of our justice system against gun owners.

We’re seeing the abuses. Let me just tell you, it’s outrageous. But you know, there’s a lot of good

reason to have the recipe for gunpowder. Plenty of good reasons. Maybe you want to make your own

gunpowder for muzzle loading. So what? Maybe you want to be a prepper? In case this stuff one day

hits a fan. Maybe you want to make it. There’s plenty of lawful reasons you may want to make

gunpowder. I mean, but you don’t have to have an obligation to explain it. And maybe you don’t want to

make it, but you just want to know how, in case you ever do. Imagine that? Or maybe you want it

because you want to write a novel, or you want to write a book, or you want to understand the

mechanics of it. Who cares? Knowledge is knowledge. It’s one of the things about having that First

Amendment. It’s supposed to protect. And you know, there’s a lot of really fascinating information out

there that as gun owners and folks that want to protect their rights and want to prep and prepare, there

is really a lot of books out there that, essentially, they try to suppress, but they can’t, because we have

the First Amendment right.

Teddy Nappen 08:38

I will say it, this also kind of reminds me. There was, I think, it was a Supreme Court case where, I think

it was a newspaper that put out how to make an atomic bomb. That was their whole and it was a very

famous. I’m trying to remember the name, but it was the push where they basically outlined how to do

it. And then they went after the newspaper. (https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/united-states-v-

progressive-inc-w-d-wis/) And the argument, one of the arguments, was it seemed highly unrealistic for

someone to create an atomic bomb. So, I don’t know if they would ever try to use that and say, well, it’s

really realistic because it’s super easy. So, I don’t know if that would at least protect or provide some

safeguards.

Evan Nappen 09:20

The hard part, of course, is getting the uranium. Except, if you remember from Back to the Future, the

Libyans, right? The Libyans. Because they had it. But what this is, yeah. So, I mean, the science of

building an atomic bomb even is known. It is out there, but, you know, doing it is a whole other thing.

And anyway, I’m not even talking about weapons of mass destruction. We’re just talking about good old

gunpowder here. Just gunpowder and criminalizing knowledge. Years in prison for simply having the

recipe for gunpowder. I mean, that’s just insane, if you think about it. But yet, New Jersey is not that far

from that. And that’s the scary part. It really is. I mean, they have, there are laws on the books now in

New Jersey that regulate firearm information. Regulate it to the degree of what you can literally have

and download and possess in that data form. Now, so far, they haven’t extended it to printed material.

And of course, when you have a printed book, it’s not in data form. Now, you can, of course, go online,

and you can find all this information online very easily. How to make gunpowder like right there in wiki

How. All the steps right in wiki How. Everything you need to know to make gunpowder right there, in

easy to read, easy to understand steps.

Evan Nappen 10:52

But there were books that have been prevalent out there. Probably some of the best books were the

“Improvised Munitions: Black Books”. Now, keep in mind, these books were originally made by the U.S.

Page – 3 – of 10Government, the Frankfurt Arsenal. Desert Publications reprinted them, and they put them out. Desert

Publications are probably the best versions of the Frankfurt Arsenal Government manuals, and these

were “Improvised Munitions: Black Books”. They literally tell you how to make gunpowder, how to make

primers, how to make guns, how to make explosives, how to make everything, all that. Everything’s in

those books. How to do it, how to do it by improvising to make them. This is U.S. Government material

out there because it’s not copyright. It can be reprinted and put out there because the Government

doesn’t have a copyright on what they do. And this is information that is and may be of interest to

preppers. I mean, if you’ve never looked at the Black Books, they’re really cool. They’re really

interesting and fascinating. And they should be. They were designed so that, if our forces were in

countries and jurisdictions and such where weapons weren’t readily available, that you could train, you

know, the folks fighting with us to fight the enemy and how to make these things.

Evan Nappen 12:19

I remember way back in college. When I wrote a column in college, I took a page out of the Black Book

that showed how to build. This is way back. We’re talking probably over, well over, 40 years ago now,

folks. I took a page out of the Black Book, the arsenal, the Frankfurt Arsenal Black Book, the

Government FM right on it that showed how you make a nine millimeter pistol out of a pipe and wood.

And it was a Government information on how to do it with illustrations. And we printed it in the college

newspaper and wrote the best argument against gun control, because, look, you could always make a

gun. And needless to say, that did cause a ruckus that that was printed, but there it is. It’s information.

It’s information.

Evan Nappen 13:05

And now what’s interesting about that statement that I made as an editorial decades ago in college is

actually proving out to be true. Because today, with the advent of all the printing and 3D printing, and

do it yourself, and improvised guns that can become just as effective and made as normal guns. The

gun rights oppressionists are freaking out because it defeats their plan of disarmament, right, doesn’t

it? So, isn’t that what the ultimate idea was, anyway, behind it? So, this is what they’re trying to

suppress. They don’t want the ability to have guns. No less guns that can be made by individuals and

individuals being able to fend and protect themselves. They want to require that the only gun you can

possess is made by a manufacturer in America that they can regulate and control and register and

know. But does that really add to our freedom? I don’t think it does. I think the idea of being free is

Government not having that control. Not having that knowledge. Not knowing. That’s what becomes a

check on the tyranny, and that’s what our Founding Fathers envisioned when they put in our Second

Amendment.

Evan Nappen 13:24

I mean, look at what’s going on in the UK. Look at not only the crushing of their rights, but the crushing

of the soul of their country. Look at what is going on there. You can see what these policies are leading

to. It’s leading to a place I wouldn’t want to live in, that’s for sure. And yet, New Jersey isn’t that far

behind in reality. So, the fight is on. The fight is on for our rights. But if you want to protect yourself, why

not have information that you have, that you want to keep? Just in case. It’s good to have information.

Information, knowledge, is power, as they say, and there are a lot of sources and resources out there

Page – 4 – of 10for you to have the knowledge. And it’s something that is, in effect, part of our First Amendment rights

as well as our Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 15:12

And let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a indoor range in Lakewood. It is

the range where Teddy and I shoot, and where we get our training. WeShoot is a fantastic place. Make

sure you pay it a visit. WeShoot is located in Lakewood, conveniently off the Parkway, right there in

Central Jersey. You know, these ranges are our resources. These are great resources. We need a

place to shoot. If you don’t have a place to shoot, it is hard to exercise your rights. They are a premier

provider of that very resource that we need. They have fantastic bargains and deals, too. They have all

the best stuff in their pro shop and the greatest instructors. And I’m not just saying that. I’m a fan and a

customer, and so is Teddy. We love it there, and we want to give our highest recommendation to

WeShoot. You can check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. Make sure you pay them a visit. You’ll be

glad you did, and they’ll become your new favorite range. I can assure you of that.

Evan Nappen 16:22

And we are knee deep in a big fight in New Jersey. Unfortunately, as you know, the Republican Jack

Ciattarelli did not succeed in winning. And, of course, that is depressing for us. Because in New Jersey,

it means we’re still going to be subject to the oppressionists, to those that have an agenda to oppress

our Second Amendment. So, that means we have to fight even harder. That means that we have to be

even more vigilant. It is not time to give up. It is time to fight harder, and the way you fight harder is

through your State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle Pistol Clubs. In unity, there’s

strength. The Association is fighting on multiple fronts, not just the political in terms of elections, but

also the legal. They’re in the courts challenging the laws as we speak. We are part of a number of

lawsuits challenging the ban on assault firearms, on the Carry Killer law and large capacity magazines.

There are lawsuits throughout the country. The Association is a part of a number of these critical

lawsuits to New Jersey. This is major for us to have this group defending us, and you need to be a part

of it. This is how we’re going to see the change.

Evan Nappen 17:59

And believe it or not, as depressing as it is that we were not successful in changing the governorship to

a governorship of New Jersey that actually supports and defends the Second Amendment, we still are

making progress. We’re making progress judicially, and we have the Supreme Court now having taken

two cases that will be decided, two, not just one, but two Second Amendment cases, and we’re going to

see even more. And these are the groups that are behind these lawsuits to help expand our rights and

expand our Second Amendment. So, make sure that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle

& Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). Their website is anjrpc.org. You’ll receive their news alerts and email alerts,

and you’ll be able to take action and be aware of the shenanigans taking place down in Trenton.

Evan Nappen 19:00

I also want to remind you to make sure you own a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the

Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, with 120 topics, all question and answer. I will be

shortly putting out an update, because we’re going to be facing some laws that I expect to proceed.

We’ve got a big fight on our hands, and it’s going to be pretty bad if these laws do pass. So, brace

Page – 5 – of 10yourselves and make sure you protect yourselves now. New Jersey’s gun laws are an insane matrix of

which many traps are out there for law-abiding citizens to be turned into criminals, and you want to

learn how to navigate that system. I’ve written this book for you to do that very thing. So, go to

EvanNappen.com and get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. EvanNappen.com. You’ll be glad you

did. And when you do, scan the code on the front, and you will get into our free, private subscriber

base. You’ll get updates, and you will also be able to access the 2025 Comprehensive Update that

includes a standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. Really good stuff, important stuff. So, Teddy, what

do you have for us today in Press Checks?

Teddy Nappen 20:29

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. And look, we had the big election night. Fine. So, I

thought maybe a nice palette cleanser would be good. So, I checked out our good buddies at The

Trace to see what latest insanity they’re trying to pump out and convince people of. And I found one

that I couldn’t, I had to reread the title, because I thought it was, I thought it was a, I thought it was a

Babylon B, to be very honest. How do you prepare kids for possible school shooting without

traumatizing them? (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/10/school-shooter-drills-trauma-safety/) Yeah, yeah.

So, to give you a little bit of, anyone who went to school, you know, the shelter in place. You know, get

down and go under the desk. The very classic, you know, move to the corner. They are now looking at

trying to find other means without traumatizing the children. This is their focus. And this is an article by

Chip Brownlee.

Teddy Nappen 21:36

Proponents say the drills teach situational awareness and can save lives. But research is far from clear

on whether the drills actually make students safer in a real emergency. Huh? Wonder if there’s other

solutions that could be done to help stop school shooters. Hmm. Moving on. What experts seem to all

agree upon is the drills have potential to traumatize students rather than empower them, especially

when the school uses realistic simulations like fake gunfire or deception. I remember going through

school. I didn’t hear my principal firing off a blank gun as he’s wandering through the school, but the

utter insanity that these people come up with. They report that active shooter drills can still be

especially difficult for students, teachers, and staff who experience violence in the home. Oh, yes,

gotta, gotta. That’s the bigger one. You see them writing about that and where we got to deal with. This

is their push again. Red flag alert. Red flag alert. This is their violence in the home. They always like to

go for that instead of addressing the actual issue, which is, I don’t know, school shootings.

Teddy Nappen 23:01

I mean, things like actual security. You mean something like that, like actual security in a school.

Imagine that. Imagine having that. Imagine arming the teachers.

Teddy Nappen 23:01

But, you know, and as they go in from there, they go through following up messages from texts. About

20% of the students feel the drills made them scared. Thirteen percent feel that they were stressed or

anxious. Huh? During an “active school shooting”, they may feel anxious. And this is the one bit that I

absolutely, what really takes it away for me. The answer they say, according to, we don’t really know

what makes drills effective. They admit it. They have no answer. They try to say like, oh, some schools

Page – 6 – of 10say we need to have sit downs. Other wide variety of after schools defined, carry them out. Have

communications with this kid. Have simple classroom conversations without addressing the actual

school shootings. Throughout the article. I mean.

Teddy Nappen 23:56

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 23:56

Oh, did you ever talk about arming the teachers, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 23:56

Oh, thank you for bringing that up, because I certainly did. I actually wrote a paper in my high school,

and my teacher was aghast at the very idea of me suggesting he be armed during an active school

shooting.

Evan Nappen 24:36

How dare you suggest that a teacher be armed?

Teddy Nappen 24:39

Yeah, it’s one of those where I’m very much disgusted. And funny enough, I even found this from “Get

Safe and Sound.com”. The armed guards and school statistics, which, by the way, in 2023 at least 60%

of them have one security staff and one armed officer. And for high schools, it’s 82.1% have at least

one or more armed security on their campuses. So, very clearly, there is a push for armed security,

actual solutions. But I will give Texas credit. This comes from the Texas Tribune.

(https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/07/texas-school-marshal-program/) The Texas Republicans

want to arm school teachers, and they actually created what’s called the School Marshal Program to

allow educators to carry weapons inside. This is the heart of the issue, and this actually addresses the

facts. Unfortunately, only a certain amount of districts actually wanted to participate in the program

where they broke down the numbers. It was just only 84 of their school districts out of the 1200 opted

into the program, and there’s only 361 actually became licensed under the program, versus the 9000

on campuses. So, this is the bigger issue. There needs to be a culture of arming yourself to defend.

You need, the teachers need to see this as like, let me be there to defend my school. Defend the

children. Actually willing and there. And it’s that culture that in our country where guns are part of our

culture, that’s a fact of life. They need to realize that. Instead of just being the victim and running

potential stressful drills, in their view, actually arming themselves to defend their workplace and defend

the kids. So, it’s quite disgusting.

Evan Nappen 26:35

And all this can somehow get traced to a story by a single author, huh? Way back. Who was it, Teddy,

that helped inspire, who helped inspire these school shooters? Who was the number one inspiration?

Teddy Nappen 26:56

Oh, that’s very simple. Stephen King, of course.

Page – 7 – of 10Evan Nappen 26:59

Stephen King.

Teddy Nappen 27:00

Rage by Stephen King.

Evan Nappen 27:01

Rage. Yeah. His book, Rage.

Teddy Nappen 27:04

Yeah, which he’s already crashing out online after all the other insane.

Evan Nappen 27:08

Now, when he wrote Rage, he had a different name, right? What was his name?

Teddy Nappen 27:11

Oh, yeah. I forget the name, but.

Evan Nappen 27:13

Bachmann.

Teddy Nappen 27:14

Something like that. Bachman, or something.

Evan Nappen 27:16

Richard Bachman.

Teddy Nappen 27:17

Yeah. He was just. Yeah, he’s like, he knew what he was writing. But of course, he tried to hide it. And

by the way, he pulled that book off of the shelves after admitting it has nothing to do with school

shootings. Even though he pulled it off the shelves. So

Speaker 1 27:20

But yet, how many of these school shooters have been found with that book, Rage?

Teddy Nappen 27:38

I remember a good chunk of them. We could pull back the article when we first talked about it, but this

is the other part I will address. And you know, this is catching on because, of course, now Every Town

jumped on it. Every Town Research. (https://everytownresearch.org/report/arming-teachers-risks/)

Arming the teachers introduces new risk into schools. Where they list off their reasonings. Teachers

cannot and should not be expected to perform their job as a trained law enforcement officer. Okay, first

off, the police are doing, what? Shooting about 50 rounds for their qualifications? Are you? Yeah, that,

that training. You mean if teachers can’t go to the range and do 50 rounds.

Page – 8 – of 10Evan Nappen 28:21

Or just being taught. Hey, this is very important training for this particular situation. They don’t have to

go out and be law enforcement officers, which can require training in many different areas. They just

need to be trained for this one scenario and how to deal with it. And you know that’s the problem here

with The Trace and with the anti-Second Amendment crowd, is that they constantly reject actual

solutions to push their agenda. No matter what. So, they can’t say ever that having a gun would

actually be helpful. Can’t ever say that. Can’t ever admit that. Nope, nope, nope. Do every kind of song

and dance and work around they possibly can come up with to ever say that actually having a firearm

was a good idea. They never do that.

Evan Nappen 29:18

So, this is why you see these false arguments come out of them. These, these laughable statements

come out of them when the reality of what is demanded in the face of violence is violence. They want to

call it “gun violence” as a pejorative, but guns themselves are not violent. It is people who are violent,

and violence can be good and violence can be bad. The way you stop bad violence is with good

violence, and that’s a reality of a violent world, okay? There’s good and there’s bad, and if you refuse to

acknowledge it, if you refuse to admit it, then what you end up with is good people suffering instead of

being protected. And that’s what we see happening, and that’s what they help to continue. They

continue with their lies that end up costing people lives, because real solutions then don’t get

implemented. And that’s the real shame of it. Because they just politicize it.

Teddy Nappen 30:30

And to really dive it into the politics of it, the American Federation of Teachers and the National

Education Association, the teachers unions, they are the ones who are pushing back and saying, don’t

arm them. So, you see the culture right there. It’s the elitist of the unions, all the heads of the

administrators, these ones, because they know they want to keep having mass shootings, because

that’s their blood dance. That’s the only way they will ever win. They ever push for gun control is they

want more mass shootings. And that’s a fact.

Evan Nappen 31:04

It kind of seems that they do. They look forward to it for political because they want, you know, they

want nothing more than to have some other rallying point at whatever the cost may be. It’s pretty

disgusting. All it takes is any act that becomes newsworthy, and within seconds, they’re blaming guns.

Even if guns aren’t involved, they’re blaming guns. They just jump on it any chance they get. Everything

is just a political vehicle to try to oppress our rights, and we have to stand up and say, you’re wrong.

And that’s why we’re here doing this very podcast. One of the other reasons we’re doing this podcast is

because we like to talk about the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are expensive

lessons that individuals learn, that you can now learn for the cheap. You get to learn them for free

because you’re listening to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what is this week’s GOFU? You know what the

GOFU is. What is it?

Teddy Nappen 32:26

The GOFU is about.

Page – 9 – of 10Evan Nappen 32:33

When individuals fill out applications and what happens?

Teddy Nappen 32:40

Oh, yeah, it’s falsifications. Yeah, that’s always the big issue for people. Don’t ever falsify on the form.

Evan Nappen 32:50

We run into this in practice often, and it’s something that we just want to make sure our listeners are

really aware of. When you fill out a gun application, make sure your answers are accurate and true.

Don’t just guess. Because falsification of the application, if you put the wrong answer, even though it

wasn’t intentional, even though it wasn’t intentional, will lead to your license being denied, and you are

exposed to criminal charges of falsification, a third degree crime in New Jersey, up to five years in State

Prison. Take this application process seriously, and make sure your answers are absolutely correct. If

you have questions about a certain question, find out in advance how it needs to be properly answered.

We get falsification issues all the time coming into the office where individuals just innocently make a

mistake. They thought this. They didn’t understand the question, and it is extremely unforgiving in New

Jersey. Please be extra careful. Don’t become a GOFU when you’re filling out your gun applications. If

you have any issues or questions, get them positively answered in advance. We can’t emphasize that

enough, folks.

Evan Nappen 34:35

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 34:47

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 10 – of 10

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E263_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 262-The Ballot is Stronger than the BulletAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 262 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey governor’s race, Second Amendment, gun rights, voting importance, anti-gun

organizations, NRA rating, gun laws, self-defense, AI security issues, Glock discontinuation, firearm

safety, gun ownership, election integrity, gun rights advocacy, firearm legislation.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:16

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:18

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:20

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, I’m happy to be back.

Teddy Nappen 00:26

You’re alive.

Evan Nappen 00:27

I’m alive. I had a nice getaway to Italy and other countries in the Mediterranean where I was able to

walk where the ancients walked and enjoy that, that area. Man, I’ll tell you one thing they got right there

is espresso. Oh, boy! Do they have espresso down right. I love that. But anyway, I also came back with

a little cold, as you can tell. So, I’m gonna be talking a little bit funny today.

Teddy Nappen 01:05

Apparelty, you smoked too many Cuban cigars.

Evan Nappen 01:12

Well, gotta do what you gotta do. Luckily, it didn’t happen till I got back. So, yeah, we did go up to

Mount Aetna there, and both the mountain and I were smoking. That was pretty good. You know,

there’s a very interesting and mind expanding things that I’ll be talking about on the show, particularly

regarding weapons and things happening from the ancients that apply to today. And I’m sure we’ll get

into some of those things in later shows. But today, it’s very important, because the ballot is stronger

than the bullet. And do you know who said that? I’ll tell you who said that. Abraham Lincoln said the

ballot is stronger than the bullet, and he’s right, it is. We are now dealing with that very scenario in New

Jersey, because we have this critical Governor’s race taking place between (Jack) Ciattarelli (R) and

Page – 1 – of 10(Mikie) Sherril (D). And it couldn’t be any starker in the differences when it comes to the Second

Amendment.

Evan Nappen 01:12

Yeah, that didn’t help. That didn’t help. But hey.

Teddy Nappen 01:14

Too many Cuban cigars.

Evan Nappen 02:36

The Democrat, Sherrill, not surprisingly, is, of course, a Second Amendment oppressionist. You know,

looking to oppress our rights to continue in the Murphy tradition of Second Amendment oppression.

And on the other side, we have Ciattarelli, who is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. We

can see a night and day difference. So, in case you didn’t know, it is critical to get out and vote. Please

make sure that you vote. I know you hear it all the time and maybe get sick of hearing it. But I cannot

emphasize how important this opportunity is. We now have a chance to turn New Jersey around. We’ve

been suffering oppression under Murphy for years and now is an opportunity to turn that around. And

let me tell you, we have a great shot at doing it.

Evan Nappen 03:46

First of all, you need to know that Sherril, the Democrat, has been endorsed by every major anti-gun,

you know, gun rights oppression organization, including Every Town for Gun Safety. Yeah, right. Moms

Demand Action, Giffords pack, and the Brady pack, just to name some of the folks that are backing her

candidacy. And that should tell you just about everything you need to know. She’s come out and made

statements about folks carrying firearms. Finding it unconscionable in terms of untrained and

unchecked individuals carrying. Well, that is hardly what New Jersey is. As a matter of fact, it’s the

opposite. They are thoroughly and completely vetted and trained. In which, in order to even get a permit

to carry, you have to pass CCARE and prove your proficiency and training along with knowledge of use

of force. All of the above. So, she has no clue other than following the oppressionists’ agenda, and she

has, not surprisingly, earned an “F” rating from the NRA Political Victory Fund. And NRA has declared

her a gun ban extremist.

Evan Nappen 05:33

And on the other side of the coin, we have Jack (Ciattarelli), generally, who is the opposite. And

remember, it’s not just his position as Governor, but he also then can have his Attorney General. And

we can get rid of Platkin and his crew of gun rights oppressionists that focus on litigating firearms out of

existence and pursuing every cockamamie scheme they can come up with to try to limit our

Constitutional rights. This is critical. You know, about four years ago or so, when Ciattarelli ran, he only

lost by about 84,000 votes, and he is coming on strong now. He has tremendous momentum, and I

believe that the gun rights issue will be one of the major things that can help put him over the top. If gun

owners would not be apathetic and actually get their asses out and vote, we can help to take our rights

back. It is critical. Please, please, please. Make sure that you do your part. This is an opportunity. How

many times do I hear gun owners say to me, what can I do to help? What can I do to fight? What can I

do? What can I do? What can I do, like that? That’s a good sentiment to want to know what you can do.

Page – 2 – of 10Well, I’m telling you right now something you can do. You can vote. You can vote the good guys in.

Exercise that precious right to vote.

Evan Nappen 07:37

And look, folks, the Republicans have come a long way. With the fantastic leadership by President

Trump and with the fantastic work done to try to preserve voter integrity, to stop the steal, to stop the

fraud, President Trump was successful and probably the ultimate comeback politically of anyone ever

in the history of the world. I mean, it’s just amazing what that man overcame. But he didn’t do it alone.

He did it by focusing on where the problems were, and part of those problems was in our election itself.

And we are now going to have monitors from the Justice Department trying to make sure this election is

as free from fraud as possible, and the Republicans have a keen understanding of the games that

Democrats play. So, this is where your vote not only matters but can really count. It can really count.

This is going to be critical, and the statement it will make when Ciattarelli wins will be beyond New

Jersey. It will also show that the Democrat Party is in its death throes, that their progressive liberal

insanity is finally being recognized by folks, even in so-called Blue States, like New Jersey. And not

being accepted. Being rejected, straight out. It is critical in both the big picture and in the small picture.

Evan Nappen 09:37

And in the picture related to what happens in New Jersey. Because, folks, there are bills pending right

now that have gone halfway through, halfway through, that will be devastating to our Second

Amendment rights. There are so many of these horrible laws that need to be repealed. Laws that are so

extreme which we’ve discussed on this show. We have to make it happen. This is that golden

opportunity. And just think of how amazing it will be to have at the same time, a Republican President

and a Republican Governor that are both dedicated to defending, not oppressing, our Second

Amendment rights. So, please do your part.

Teddy Nappen 10:35

One other thing I would highlight for that is that not just what the Governor can do, but a Governor can

appoint people. You know, like Murphy appointed Platkin. The attack dog who’s been weaponizing his

position to attack our rights. Going after gun shops. Going after gun companies. They’ve been going

after everything they can. Where you are the top cop in that position. So, if Jack (Ciattarelli) gets in,

we’ll get someone who is not a Platkin and won’t be the attacker on our rights.

Evan Nappen 11:16

And actually, you’re right, Teddy. And not only that, the Attorney General can then promulgate Attorney

General Opinions and other legal decrees that are within their power to expand our rights, to clarify

limitations, and to advise law enforcement throughout New Jersey about how they need to treat our

rights and permitting and all these issues that we’re fighting now. It will open up that area greatly. This

is a tremendous opportunity here, and it’s one of the blessings of living in a republic. We get this right to

vote. So, don’t ignore it. The ballot is more powerful than the bullet, and with the ballot, we can increase

the power behind our bullets. In other words, our ability to exercise our rights. So, it’s critical, folks.

Critical, critical, critical.

Evan Nappen 12:34

Page – 3 – of 10Hey, I also want to mention an interesting little news bit that you may not have heard. This is from UW

news. More U.S. adults are carrying loaded handguns daily.

(https://www.washington.edu/news/2022/11/16/more-u-s-adults-carrying-loaded-handguns-daily-study-

finds/) There you go. And that’s not a surprise, I’m sure, to most of us. But the numbers are kind of cool

from this article, and I just wanted to share them with you. The number of U.S. adult handgun owners

carrying loaded handguns doubled from 2015 to 2019. Now that’s just to 2019. I bet it’s more than

doubled yet again. But even then, it doubled. This was based on the National Firearm Survey (NFS) of

U.S. adults. And looking at their surveys, they found that from 2015 that it’s up 9 million and 6 million

carry every day, twice as many as carried in 2015. This is really great news, because the more folks out

there are carrying, the safer we are. And they’re, of course, saying that less restrictive carrying

regulations. Yeah, we have the tremendous growth of “shall issue” permits. We have the Bruen

decision now, and we have Constitutional carry.

Evan Nappen 14:11

We have actually crime that is been gone crazy in the cities that gets folks wanting to protect

themselves. It actually, in these hot spots, because of how the news plays up the crime in the hot spots,

right? Because, you know, blood always sells in the news media. It actually also is encouraging to get

people to want to defend themselves and have the means to do so. Some of the other findings in the

report that are interesting is apparently seven in 10 handgun owners say they carry a loaded handgun

as protection against another person. Dwarfing the number who said they carry for protection against

an animal or for work. Yep, so, the overwhelming majority of carry, seven out of 10, is for self-defense

against bad guys. Now, why should we even be shocked by that? I’m not. Of course it is. That’s why

good guys have got to carry. I mean, come on. They also found that four in five handgun owners who

reported carrying were male, three in four were white, and the majority were between 18 and 44. Now,

gee, white and male. That’s interesting. Why are they? Why are they checking into that?

Evan Nappen 15:54

Well, you know, if you look deeper behind their approach of trying to make it out that it’s some kind of

white supremacy thing, which is, of course, the undercurrent to that little stat. The reality of it is that the

institutionalized racism that’s present is a discouragement to blacks from carrying. That’s the reason.

And we need to address that, because the more folks that carry, the better. Any law-abiding citizen,

responsible, law-abiding citizen that carries makes you and me both safer. So, I think we’ll see even

way bigger numbers if we had more up-to-date studies than going back to 2019. But that itself shows

you that the trend is going in the right way. It’s going in the direction.

Teddy Nappen 16:50

You also gotta look at the factor of Covid. As the 2019.

Evan Nappen 16:56

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 16:56

Page – 4 – of 10Where everyone gets locked up and, you know, everyone can’t go outside. You want to defend your

home and need something to carry. I need something to defend myself. So, that’s another one that

blew up in the Left’s face.

Evan Nappen 17:12

And it did. It did blow up, and it’s continuing to. As a matter of fact, though, there’s, you know, things

coming up with technology. We’re talking about AI, and we’re talking about other impacts. Well, I just

want to point this little story out here that I saw. This is from Cam Edwards at BearingArms. “What

happens when AI thinks a bag of chips is a gun?”

(https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2025/10/27/what-happens-when-ai-bag-chips-a-gun-n1230388)

How about that, folks? When a bag of chips is a gun. That’s right. Because that’s what happened to

Taki Allen, who was hanging out with his friends after football practice at Kenwood High School in

Baltimore County. Police rolled up and confronted him at gunpoint about a pistol they thought he was

carrying. He was placed in handcuffs and searched, but no gun was found. Instead, what he had was a

bag of Doritos that he was holding and that triggered a weapons alert by the AI powered security

system. How nice. So, apparently he was just holding a bag of Doritos, and AI registered it as a gun. I

don’t think they have the firearm-seasoned Doritos yet. It’s just a situation where you have this

incredible reaction. Luckily, no one was hurt, but you can well see nervous law enforcement drawing a

gun down on this kid. I’m glad law enforcement didn’t mistake his bag of Doritos for a firearm. So, keep

in mind that these AI systems are going to be emplaced in other areas, and I’m sure we’re going to see

growth of that. We’re probably going to see more and more of the problems, the glitches from these

systems that are going to lead to folks getting injured and of unreasonable searches and seizures

taking place. I can well see that in the future. So, we better be aware of it. But next time with your bag

of Doritos, beware that you may be triggering AI into thinking you’re going to do harm with a firearm.

How crazy is that?

Evan Nappen 19:58

Hey, I want to tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range, an indoor range, in

Lakewood where Teddy and I both shoot. We get our training there. We love WeShoot, and so will you.

WeShoot has some pretty cool stuff they’re talking about and that they’re offering. You can go check

out at the WeShoot pro-shop. One is the Walther PDP Pro-X and that’s their newest evolution in

Walther performance. With a full-size feel, a top-tier trigger and modular features for serious shooters.

Then you have the Tavor X95. We love the Tavor X95. We call it the Hebrew hammer, right? It’s a

compact bull pup, chambered in 5.56, built for CQP power with Israeli military roots, and it has that

wonderful futuristic function. Then you have the classic Smith & Wesson Model 36. That’s the good ol’e

snub nose .38 special in the classic Model 36. The old J-frame that we love. We call it our pocket

rocket. They have a nice Model 36 there for you to check out, made by Smith, just a great classic gun.

You can also get your training at WeShoot. You can get your certifications, and you have a great range

to practice. Go right there to WeShoot in Lakewood. Check out their website at weshootusa.com. They

have beautiful photography, and they’re just wonderful place. You will love it. They’re a great resource

for New Jersey gun owners right there, conveniently off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:07

Page – 5 – of 10Let me also mention our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org.

ANJRPC has been hard at work fighting for our rights. They’re in the courts as we speak. They’re

standing guard in the legislature with a full-time paid lobbyist. They are fighting as well. Getting the

word out about voting. We have to do it. We’ve got to get out there and vote. The Association is there

serving you as New Jerseyans, protecting our rights. You need to be a member of the Association of

New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They’ll send you out great emails about alerts with easy steps you can

take to make a difference. But they also send you a wonderful printed newsletter, greatest newsletter

out there in the state. They’re the NRA affiliate, official state affiliate, and the largest pro-gun group in

New Jersey, pro- Second Amendment rights. So, make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org and join today.

You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 23:30

And let me also not forget to shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of

Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, in a question-and-answer format. It’s used every

day by hundreds and hundreds of folks. It will help you to keep your guns, keep your gun rights and

stay out of jail. New Jersey, as you know, is insane, and I try to make the insanity somewhat

understandable. So, you can stay within the crazy matrix of New Jersey’s gun laws and not fall into the

traps. Not be a GOFU. So, make sure you get a copy of my book and scan the front cover for the QR

right there, so you can get the free updates. The Comprehensive 2025 Update is there waiting for you,

including a standalone chapter of where you can and cannot carry under New Jersey’s Carry Killer bill.

What’s valid and what isn’t at the moment. So, get yourself a copy today. Go to EvanNappen.com,

EvanNappen.com, and make sure you own the big orange book. So, Teddy, what do you have for us

today?

Teddy Nappen 24:55

Well, as we know, Press Checks are always free and. And I wanted to. One of the big things that kind

of was circulating, if everyone’s been paying attention, about what’s been going on with Glock as

California issued their ban. And this comes from BearingArms, our friends at BearingArms, from Cam

Edwards. Gun World is buzzing as Glocks decision to discontinue dozens of its models.

(https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2025/10/21/gun-world-buzzing-glock-discontinue-dozens-

models-n1230326) It has been kind of the big shake up.

Evan Nappen 25:28

They basically got rid of their entire line, except for the slim compacts like the 43 and those guns. So,

they’re no longer going to produce all those Glocks, and they’re coming out with what, the new V

series?

Teddy Nappen 25:45

Correct. This was given to them by one of the several Glock distributors began reporting on Monday

afternoon that the company will stop shipping all Gen 3s, Gen 5s, and Gen 5 MOS models as of

November 30, and we’ll be rolling out the new V series December of this year. This is from a video of

GlockShop’s (Lenny) McGill.

Evan Nappen 26:12

Page – 6 – of 10Oh yeah. Lenny McGill. Well, you know, the Glock has been such a favorite and so reliable a firearm.

It’s like the number one, probably the number one handgun in America at the moment.

Teddy Nappen 26:26

Mitch Rapp would agree.

Evan Nappen 26:28

Hmm, I’m sure he would. I know that there’s, like, I always say about a Glock. There’s a really good and

really bad thing about a Glock. What’s really good about a Glock is, when you pull the trigger, it goes

bang. What’s really bad about a Glock is, when you pull the trigger it goes bang. In other words, there’s

no manual safeties on it, okay? So, your safety is in between your ears. Glock is super reliable, but

make sure you’re always very conscientious about your trigger and following all the rules of safety

when it comes to a Glock. They’re great guns, but there’s no mechanical safeties that are going to

come to your aid if you get stupid. So, be cautious with Glocks at all times. But I love them.

Teddy Nappen 27:28

Yeah, and I will note from the article, the company has not shown any ties to the anti-gun efforts to their

change of the of their line up with the new models. But the timing and their response is very suspect of

that, and they highlight the issue. Growing use of illegal switches that convert semi-automatic pistols

into machine guns. Oh, but it seems like that’s kind of their response and.

Evan Nappen 28:01

Well, wait, let’s talk about those. So, those are the Glock switches, and they’re able to be very easily

printed with 3d printers for less than a buck, I guess, in materials. And they’ll go on the back of the

Glock. They’ll slide in, and then you can switch a semi-auto Glock so that it’ll go full auto. And that’s

what these Glock switches do. And they’re out there because they’re so easy to make and so plentiful.

Apparently, the understanding we have is that the V series will not be able to be converted with a Glock

switch. Now, I don’t have more technical information than that. Maybe they’re just going to go with like a

pro-trigger or something. But normally, the way these things go is any technological change that gets

made, then somebody invents a technological way around it. So, I don’t know. But for now, the idea, I’m

sure, is to undercut this litigation and legislation as part of the announcement of their new line. Now this

new line may also have things like MOS on all the models as a standard feature. Who knows what

other things it may have. It may be enhancements that may make it better, but then again, maybe not.

We’ve seen that before, Teddy, where manufacturers have changed their model guns and the old

models become much more desirable than the new models. I’m not saying that’s going to happen here,

for sure, but we’ve seen it before.

Teddy Nappen 29:48

Correct. And that’s one of my points I always try to make when it comes to the Press Checks. I find the

best way to look at things is to look as you can see, they always try to push this in the guise of “safety”.

And one of the things that we want to highlight is from for the 1911 Series 70 vs the Series 80. This

comes from PewPew Tactical. (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/1911-series-70-series-80/) The giant

change that they did.

Page – 7 – of 10Evan Nappen 30:19

Well, yeah. Well, you see, there is a more of a desirability, arguably, for Series 70 Colt 1911s versus

Series 80. Because with the 80s, they added a firing pin safety, and they added some changes to the

bushing and what have you. I mean, the Series 80 is still a damn good gun, but there became a

preference and kind of an added, a value added, if you had a Series 70. Still is to this day. A Series 70

is more sought after, arguably. The triggers on a Series 70 were much better because of the design on

the Series 80 to increase, to add in that safety. There’s a little more, not as crisp, etc. Now, you know,

I’m sure with a lot of great gunsmithing, you can get that Series 80 to be real nice, but the Series 70,

plainly has certain things that make it a preference. However, if you have your hammer down on a firing

pin on a Series 70and there’s ammo there, that pin is actually going to push against the primer. So, it

doesn’t have that firing pin safety. And that’s what the Series 80 did. Because, you know, the idea

behind the 1911 is you’re going to carry it cocked and locked. So, the hammer is cocked and then the

safety goes up to lock it. And then on your Series 70, you have two safeties, basically that are

mechanical. You have your thumb safety, and then you have your grip safety. So, you actually have

two mechanical safeties. You’ve got to be gripping it properly, and then click down the thumb safety.

But if you have a round in the chamber and the hammer is down and you don’t have it cocked and

locked, then arguably, there could be some issue there. It’s not a smart way to be carrying a firearm

that is a single action, automatic, semi automatic pistol, single action. That’s what your 1911 is. But

folks love the Series 70. So, there was a more of a desire to have the Series 70. You see, the same

thing with Winchesters, with pre-’64 Winchesters. Particularly the Model 70s, right? I mean, you know,

Teddy, about how.

Teddy Nappen 32:58

Yeah, in comparison. Winchesters prior were more handmade under the Japanese firearm company to

change the manufacturing and more to the factory style that of the Japanese.

Evan Nappen 33:20

I mean, the Winchesters are all good. But the preference, again, became for the firearm that had more

hand work and had some differences in extractor and what have you. So that the premier became the

so-called Pre ’64 Winchesters. It had value added on your Model 70 and other firearms made by

Winchester. So, that’s something that became looked for. Then you see it again with Smith & Wesson,

right? Like we see with Smith. The Hillary hole. So, after that Rose Garden ceremony and they put that

internal lock in the Smith & Wessons, people were not necessarily thrilled about that internal lock, and

there were even reports of issues with it. As soon as you add in these things, you make a gun less

simple, and the more complex it is, the more likelihood you could have an issue that you don’t want. So,

the new Smiths became less preferred than the old Smiths, and that’s still a thing. But nowadays you

can even get the Smiths without the Hillary hole. They’ll offer many of their revolvers because people

just don’t want that internal locking device in their guns.

Teddy Nappen 34:41

Yeah, I would say that’s the better comparison, is that to the what’s going on with Glock and the Hillary

hole, because that all came out of the creation over the whole deal with Columbine. And it was

cowtowing, which, again, you never appease crocodiles, and this is trying to combat the “safety issues

of firearms”.

Page – 8 – of 10Evan Nappen 35:08

Oh, yeah, that was the famous Rose Garden ceremony with Smith. And then, as a matter of fact, there

was a reaction by gun owners, in effect, not to even buy Smith & Wessons after that. People were so

disgusted with them giving in to the Clinton, to the Clinton Gambit, and their sales took a hit. It was

viewed at that time as somewhat of a sellout. Now, I’m not saying Glock is selling out. Okay? There are

realities here of the litigation and the laws that will affect their ability on selling the guns, whether, you

know, those fights can be won down the road or not. When, if they just reinvigorate their line and they

don’t take away the reliability aspect that we all know and love about Glocks, maybe it will be okay. But

Smith & Wesson is an example with what not to do, that’s for damn sure. What not to do with them. And

you still see premier and premiums for the old Marlins, right? JM stamped Marlins get a premium over

the other Marlins. And I know Ruger now makes Marlins, and they make a damn good product. I’m not

saying anything else, but there’s still that premium, that desire for the old ones.

Evan Nappen 36:36

So, we may see that all these pre V model Glocks, pre V models, may themselves have a premium.

And although we see Glocks as plentiful, that may not end up being the case with the V models. It may

go the route of the Series 70 versus Series 80. It may go the route of the Smith Hillary hole versus not,

the pre 64 Winchester. So look, if you have a Glock, I would say the old models, hold on to it for now.

Hold on to it because you may see that there’s a premium to the older generation Glocks. It may very

well happen. We don’t know. Because the new Glocks haven’t come out. And if they do come out and

then there’s issues people are reporting, which could happen, particularly with new models, then there’ll

be a really big demand for the older models. And even if there is no issue, there’ll still be that desire, if

for no other reason than you want to have a Glock that, you know, they wanted you not to have. Even

though you have no intention of ever putting a Glock switch on it. There’s still the factor that you now

have a Glock that ended up being forced into model changes, and you have the old Model.

Evan Nappen 36:48

We’ve seen that happen any number of times. We saw things change, like, for example, with the old

Mac 10 semi-automatic pistol. Right? The Mac 10, now Macs, of course, are assault firearms, boogie

men under New Jersey law. But back when the original Mac came out, it fired from an open bolt, and it

was semi-auto. And then they said, oh, no, you can’t have open bolt semi-autos. It’s got to fire from the

closed bolt because it could get too easily converted. But the open bolts are still legal, and of course,

there’s a premium if you have an open bolt Mac. You see this repeated so many times through the

firearm industry, where the old models have an added value and more desirability. Now, whether or not

that’ll happen with Glock remains to be seen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it, just given the

history of so many other guns and how that very thing has happened.

Evan Nappen 39:07

Hey, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And the reason we talk

about GOFUs is because it’s actual cases of people making mistakes. They can be very expensive,

costly. Cost your freedom, cost your rights, and you don’t want to be a GOFU. So, we like to talk about

them. So, this week’s GOFU has to do with the firearm that you carry. It may seem basic, but I need to

say it. Make sure the gun that you carry is your firearm, your gun. Don’t go and register your spouse’s

Page – 9 – of 10gun. When I say “register”, I mean list it on your carry permit as your carry gun. When it’s not your gun,

don’t do that. Okay? Because it’s a firearm that is somebody else’s. Why are you even handling it? How

can you have been transferred it lawfully? It raises all kinds of questions and all kinds of problems. So,

make sure the guns that you list on your carry permit are actually your firearms. Don’t be a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 40:22

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 40:34

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 10 – of 10

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E262_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 261-Bang or Bong or Maybe Both?Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 261 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court, marijuana, gun laws, Second Amendment, New Jersey, carry permit, sensitive places,

federal court, gun violence, national reciprocity, red flag laws, mental health, gun rights, ammunition,

online sales.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Teddy Nappen 00:15

I’m Teddy Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Now, I promised everyone my father would be back,

and sure enough, he was back. And because he was on vacation, obviously, he got sick, and of course,

he lost his voice. So, unless we wanted him on here, and you know, coughing up a lung and him, you

know, having this turned into an ASMR of him whispering Gun Law, let’s let him recover. Don’t worry.

He’ll more than likely be back next week. Till then, let’s let him rest. But for now, we have some news to

discuss.

Teddy Nappen 00:59

So, the Supreme Court, this comes from the AP News, the Supreme Court is considering whether

people who regularly smoke pot can legally own guns. This comes from an article written by Lindsay

Whitehurst. (https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-marijuana-guns-

e86c342bf248c7822722ad027980b72b) The Supreme Court said Monday that it will consider whether

people who regularly smoke marijuana can legally own guns. Latest firearm case to come since, well,

the Bruen decision. So, I want to highlight the impact, again, the hammer of Bruen, thanks to St. Justice

Thomas, where we are slowly smashing and working our way through the various gun laws. And just to

highlight the fact that, look, you can say what you will about marijuana, okay? It’s not the cure all, but it

does have its benefits. And it’s just so prevalent, but you’ve got to focus on the fact this is about

freedom and not allowing the federal Government to take away people’s rights. Because it’s all over the

place, okay? And that comes up a lot, with a lot of clients. A lot of people are smoking weed. And as my

father publishes and puts out there and has, very much, everyone uses it now as a coined term, “Bang

or Bong. You can’t have both.”

Teddy Nappen 02:17

Well, the Supreme Court heard that, and now they’re going to figure out, can you actually have it? So,

President Donald Trump’s Administration has asked justice to revive the case of the Texas man

charged with a felony because he alleged had a gun in his home and acknowledged he was regular pot

user. The Justice Department appealed after a lower court largely struck down the law barring people

who usually use any illicit illegal drugs from having guns. They argue that the broad law written puts

millions of people at risk with the technical violation. Since at least 20% of Americans have tried pot,

according to the Government health data, about half the states have legalized recreational marijuana,

Page – 1 – of 6but it’s still illegal under federal law. Remember, that. It is still illegal under federal law. Okay? We need

to just remove this as a federal issue, as a federal disqualifier, because it screws people out of their

rights when it shouldn’t. It’s about allowing people, because we want as many people as they can, to be

able to exercise their Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 03:26

And, quite frankly, this should be removed. They should just remove marijuana as a federal disqualifier.

If there’s any other way they want to carve it out. I’m happy to listen about it, but until then, this is a

prevalent issue. It comes into play a lot for when people are looking to get mental health

expungements. We were just having that from Dr. (John) Edeen, from that exact issue where we form a

lot. If it comes up where you’re formalized your usage of marijuana, you’re screwed out of your gun

rights. And that’s not right. That is not right. People should have access to their firearms. So, it’s very

clearly a big issue, and we’ll see where the Supreme Court lines up on that. My hope is they strike it

out, and we can move on from it.

Teddy Nappen 04:18

I’d like to also talk about our friends here now at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is bursting with pride, as they

are celebrating that Katie Rutherford has officially been named New Jersey State Champion in the

highly competitive service pistol match. And she did it the true WeShoot fashion. Disciplined,

determined and absolutely dialed in. So, congratulations to Katie on her win. WeShoot offers classes

for the CCAR certification so you can get your New Jersey Permit to Carry. WeShoot is a range in

Lakewood, New Jersey. They have a fantastic facility for great training and a great pro shop. They have

all kinds of deals and specials. We love WeShoot. It’s where I go, where my father goes to shoot, and

we got our certifications there. So, just go there and mention Gun Lawyer, and you’ll be treated like

royalty. And if you don’t mention Gun Lawyer, you’ll still be treated like royalty, because they’re the

best. WeShootUSA.com is their website. Beautiful photos. You can see their WeShoot girls posing with

their gorgeous guns. And they’re the guns that they have that you can buy, and then you can have get

great deals, great sales. They’ll not only sell you the gun, but they’ll teach you how to use it effectively.

Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey,

right off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did it.

Teddy Nappen 05:45

I also want to mention the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC just had a case in

the federal court where the Appellate Court gave a mixed win at the moment. But, of course, the fight

isn’t over. We’ll call it a partial victory regarding “sensitive places” in the Carry Killer bill. Essentially

what the status quo is at the moment that has been maintained, in which you can still carry in your

vehicle with the car jacker protection law that has still been enjoined. You can carry concealed and

loaded on your person in your vehicle if you have a New Jersey Carry Permit. That is still enjoined. You

can do it because, remember the Carry Killer Bill tried to prevent it. Also, you can still go on private

property, as long as it’s open to the public and not otherwise a sensitive place. We lost a little a bit in

terms of filming locations, in terms of movie filming, in terms of transport on public transportation. So,

you’re going to have to have your gun cased and unloaded, etc. if you’re going to go riding on the bus

or on a train.

Page – 2 – of 6Teddy Nappen 07:02

However, interestingly, they found that the $200 fee that was a $50 fee portion that goes to the State

was unlawful. It’s unlawful because it went to the VCCB, which is the Victims Crime Compensation

Board. Under the case law, you can not have a fee for licensing not go to actual regulatory activity. That

is the purpose of the fee. So, that portion has been knocked out. Now, the price of a New Jersey Carry

Permit is $150, and if you live in any towns that are refunding, such as Englishtown, which was one of

the first in the start, they were refunding their $150. So, you can actually get your carry permit in New

Jersey, in New Jersey for free. And the fight continues. There’s just one step, as we go, challenging the

Second Amendment oppressionists legislation as they laid upon us. The Association is at the forefront

fighting for your rights. Make sure you are a member of anjrpc.org, anjrpc.org.

Teddy Nappen 08:07

Let me also mention my father’s book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible on New Jersey gun law.

You can get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com. It’ll help you navigate a very

complex course that has been laid out by the gun rights oppressionists who try to trip you up at every

turn, turn you into a criminal, stop you from being a defender and instead into a victim. You need to be

a defender instead of a victim, especially since the police have no duty to protect you, as you now

know. Get the big orange book. Order today. Scan the cover and make sure you get into the private

subscriber database. You’ll get immediate access to the archives, which we update, and that we send

out. Also download the 2025 Comprehensive Update that includes the new standalone chapter on

“sensitive places”, where you can and cannot carry. So, check it out and get your book today.

Teddy Nappen 09:06

All right. So, as we know, Press Checks are always free, and let’s see what the gun rights oppressors

are pushing. We know that we’ve always got to check in on our enemy, that is The Trace, and see what

they’re peddling. And the latest, as I was laughing when I was reading it, from The Trace, by Olga

Pierce. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/10/gun-violence-dropping-why-us-cities-data/) Analysts show

150 U.S. cities show one of the greatest drops in gun violence ever. Huh? I wonder why that is. I

wonder why that is. Well, good news. The Trace explains itself. Gun violence is trending downward.

This is what the article is talking about. Three quarters of the cities with the most shootings, according

to the analysis of The Trace’s Gun Violence Data Hub. They highlight various cities such as St. Louis

with their gun lines trending down in the course of 12 weeks. There has been 1.4 fewer victims being

shot, translating to a 4.1% decrease of the average weekly shooting victims. They go over their details

using isolating terms, which is how they cook the books. But you know, as they highlight and ignore the

“blips” of various mass shootings, as they show the various lines trending. You can go to the article.

They highlight.

Teddy Nappen 10:45

I love how they always try to paint this here. So they say there was a large spike in pre-covid, in pre

covid. In covid levels of 2020, of the spike. Now, what they don’t like to highlight is the fact that if you

actually look at the data, you will see that the trend numbers, crime was still up very high prior. But

there has been a massive change where there’s a downturn, where, you know, remember, they were

toting during the election, where they’re saying, crime is down, crime is down. But if you actually look at

it, from pre-covid levels to now, the crime was actually very high. It wasn’t until a massive change this

Page – 3 – of 6year. I wonder what that was? So, now, after two more years, in their words, two years of sharp decline,

you know the answer? This is their reasoning they give, folks. Here it is. Teachers, counselors, after-

school programs, basketball coaches, violence interrupters and others who are the front lines of fighting

gun violence. I wonder what the others are? Also, why do they highlight basketball coaches? What is

that about, people?

Teddy Nappen 12:03

And they were also highlighting the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which gave $250 million and

$750 million to state programs, including red flag laws, mental health courts. And funding has dried up

now. They need it. Up, here it is, folks. More money, please. More money, please. So, this is where

they’re toting it. They’re trying to get the federal Government to fund their anti-gun rights programs,

where they’re pushing for more red flag, believing that that actually has an effect on crime and

shootings. It has been proven that it does not. So, they go into more citing about how they need to fund

programs like Cease Fire, other local programs, quote, unquote.

Teddy Nappen 12:56

But I want to highlight something they completely ignore. Gee, I wonder why they’re pushing for this

now? Why are they now, all of a sudden, trying to say that? They’ve been pushing for a long time that

crime is down and now, when it actually is showing where crime has dropped a crap ton in various

areas. Why is that? Well, under USACarry, pulling this up, you can actually see how all states are now

“shall issue” or Constitutional carry. (https://www.usacarry.com/concealed-carry-permit-reciprocity-

maps/) So, now, the more prevalence of people being able to carry, people being able to defend

themselves and not be victims of shootings, being able, which you gotta always cite to, I believe the

number is 3 million lives are saved. That’s from the CDC. Lives are saved from defensive uses of a

firearm. It’s one of those they need to, that is always highlighted, but they like to ignore that. So, the

mass push for carry has come up and crime is starting to tick down.

Teddy Nappen 14:10

Uh oh, look. And here comes the truth. Right here, from BearingArms by Cam Edwards.

(https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2025/10/13/nra-calls-on-congress-to-adopt-concealed-carry-

reciprocity-n1230239) The NRA-ILA Executive Director says it’s time for Congress to step up and pass

national concealed carry reciprocity, which allows lawful gun owners to carry across the country. There

it is, folks. That is the push. Not just about the funding. Not just about the fact that they’re trying to push

for more red flag. But they know that if there was ever a time to push for national reciprocity, here it is.

And just right now in the article right from Breitbart, from AWR Hawkins.

(https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2025/10/16/president-trump-makes-clear-national-

reciprocity-being-discussed/) Trump specifically said when a reporter asked. President Trump, could

there be any further conversion to have national concealed carry apply to actually D.C., like you have a

driver’s license in Texas and you have a permit. Trump interjected, as you know, they’ve been talking

about that for a long time. It’s an interesting question. A lot of people feel strongly both ways, but we’re

talking about that. The conversation is and he has said, if it ever reached his desk, he will sign it.

Page – 4 – of 6Teddy Nappen 15:26

So, that’s the timing is just perfect. This comes out right in the same time as October. Then The Trace

puts out this article so you can automatically see the game they’re trying to play. They’re trying to

downplay, well, we don’t need national carry. We don’t. No, no, no. You don’t need that. Yeah, all the

states. No, no, no, no. We need red flag. That’s helping, that’s what’s stopping you. Not the fact that

now more and more people are able to carry and are able to defend themselves. I wonder why they’re

trying to make this push now. So, they’re trying to stamp out the need for national reciprocity. I can

honestly see this as their play, because they’re scared. They know, because we already know, the Left

have lost the battleground of ideas. They’ve conceded that ground the moment that the Left shot and

killed Charlie Kirk. They’ve conceded those grounds. They’ve already conceded fact and logic, because

we already see the data. We already see the arguments coming to that.

Teddy Nappen 16:32

So, now they’re trying to pedal the whole argument, like it’s not needed. We don’t need this. Why do

you need national reciprocity? Why do that? Well, we certainly do. Because we see the disgusting

manners places like New Jersey, where they’re trying to push for sensitive places left and right. Trying

to go after our carry and trying to make it impossible and hamper our ability to defend ourselves. But, I

wholeheartedly, President Trump. If you’re listening to this, please push for national reciprocity. Now’s

the time. Seize it while you can and get us our national reciprocity now.

Teddy Nappen 17:13

So, as everyone knows. The favorite segment is the GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And let us bring

up. Now, this is something that has come up recently, and this is something I need to address for

people. They need to remember. Do not buy any ammunition online. Just don’t even do that. Okay?

Here’s the problem. If you’re buying from online, which most of them do it from out of the state, you

know, buy online. You’re in state of New Jersey, and you buy online. I’ll even pull it up right on the page

in my father’s book (New Jersey Gun Law), right here, right here. On Page 13, number (8), may a

person, when you’re ordering handgun ammunition, handgun ammunition, out-of-state and receive it

via interstate commerce? There is no Federal statute prohibiting the acquisition in this manner.

However, unless the seller fully complies with New Jersey law, which includes the display of a gun

license permit and electronic recording, it is unlawful in New Jersey. Additionally, the seller could be

charged with being an unlicensed New Jersey dealer. They have to comply with reporting the 2,000 or

more bulk sales.

Teddy Nappen 18:35

Do not do this, folks, please. Please, do not do this. Okay? Buy locally. All right, go to your local gun

store to buy your ammunition, because otherwise you are setting yourselves up. They are willing. New

Jersey’s fully willing to attack and go after and we’re trying to not allow them to go after gun dealers.

Don’t give them the excuse. Please, please do not buy handgun ammunition online. Do not buy

ammunition online, okay? All right, we must all remember that gun laws do not protect honest citizens

from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Page – 5 – of 6Speaker 2 19:16

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 6 – of 6

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E261_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 260- Doctors and Firearms Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 260 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Firearms, medical industry, suppressors, hearing protection, gun safety, mental health, New Jersey gun laws, Second Amendment, gun rights, trauma medicine, public health, gun ownership, ethical boundary violations, firearm training, gun legislation.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 1, Speaker 2, Dr. John Edeen

Teddy Nappen 00:15

I’m Teddy Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Again, my father is allowed to have a vacation, and don’t worry, he will be back. Instead, I am going to be interviewing a very interesting individual who will provide, I think, a very important take that is being overlooked when it comes to firearms and when it comes to the medical industry.

Teddy Nappen 00:43

So, I’m looking to my guest here, Dr. John Edeen, and I believe it was a Edeen rhymes with mean, if I’m correct.

Dr. John Edeen 00:54

Well, that’s right, absolutely.

Teddy Nappen 00:56

Oh, good. So, yeah, if you would like to introduce yourself so that everyone can understand and like, what organization you have been a part of.

Speaker 1 01:07

Sure, I’d be happy to do that. So, my name is John Edeen. I am a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, thus being mean to kids is what I do for a living. Ha, ha, ha. It’s pretty funny. I am the membership director for Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership (DRGO), which is a Second Amendment foundation organization, and it was founded first in about 1994 by Tim Wheeler, who is an ear, nose and throat surgeon in California. (https://drgo.us/) He realized that there was a lot of bias in the medical literature, and also a lot of the academia locally in California, and he was one of the guys that was actually instrumental in getting the Dickey Amendment passed, which basically forbade the CDC from doing biased advocacy research against the Second Amendment. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5993413/)

Dr. John Edeen 02:06

And I’ve been with DRGO for about 12 years now. So, DRGO is an interesting organization because it’s, you know, doctors and other healthcare professionals, and we even have, believe it or not, a couple lawyers as part of DRGO.

Dr. John Edeen 02:22

Yeah, I know. But we’ve done, we’ve done some amicus briefs for some of the, you know, pertinent cases that has some stuff to do with medical stuff. Just recently the ear, nose and throat society. I can’t remember the actual name of it, but they actually came out with a position statement supporting suppressors. And one of our members, Hayes Wanamaker, who’s also in the leadership of DRGO, actually spoke at the Gun Rights Policy Conference two weekends ago about this. He gave the kind of the scientific stuff, and there is a paper at our website, which is DRGO.us, which goes over a lot of that same information. And there’s, it’s really good intellectual ammunition, especially if you’re in a state where they’ve outlawed suppressors, and you’re trying to get that undone.

Teddy Nappen 02:22

Ah, get them out of there.

Dr. John Edeen 03:02

Because, you know, based on what happened with the Big Beautiful Bill, you know that the suppressor tax is going away, and so people are going to be buying suppressors left and right. But if you’re in a state that doesn’t allow you to have a suppressor, then you can use this to try to lobby. You use it as good information.

Teddy Nappen 03:36

I’m incredibly thankful for that, because I find that a lot of people, if we arm them with a lot of this information, they can persuade a lot of people. Because look, if you talk to the average person, they think suppressor, like, what? You want one of that and you want, like, random shootings, like in John Wick? No, it actually has a very important value, because we don’t need to all be going deaf. Thank you.

Dr. John Edeen 04:00

What was that?

Teddy Nappen 04:03

Exactly!

Dr. John Edeen 04:05

I mean, you have a bunch of shooters that are talking to each other. They’re, they’re like, half of the stuff you can’t hear, right? Because they can’t hear what the other guy’s saying because they have hearing loss. It’s just, it’s crazy. What is that? What did you just say? Huh?

Teddy Nappen 04:21

Sorry, I’ve got range ears.

Dr. John Edeen 04:24

Yeah, I tell you I’ve lost hearing. You know, all you have to do is be, you know, laying prone and with a rifle, and you bump your ear muffs, and all of a sudden you lose your seal. Next thing you know, your ears are ringing. And that ringing is your little hair cells in your cochlea dying. I want you to know that. That’s what that is. And one exposure to, I think it’s what 120 decibels or something like that, can cause permanent hearing loss. All that stuff is in our paper, and it’s worth having. (https://drgo.us/position-statements/suppressors-hearing/) There’s, there’s like, a little synopsis, but then there’s, there’s the whole paper. And you can print them out. There’s great pictures. It has pictures of the cochlea and, you know, and it gives you a fact.

Dr. John Edeen 05:07

I can pull this up right now. I’m sitting here in front of my computer, but here it is. It’s written by, first of all, it’s written by 1, 2, 3, 4 ear, nose and throat surgeons, and they have like, photo micrographs of the inner ear. They have the instant damage is at 140 decibels, by the way. And it’s all on here. And it tells you like a lawn mower is 90 decibels and a jackhammer is 110 decibels. And so a lawn mower for eight hours can give you damage. A jackhammer for 15 minutes can give you damage.

Dr. John Edeen 05:44

And then anything over 140 decibels, gives you instant damage, like a firecracker, a pistol or a rifle. But it’s interesting. It’s very interesting. And there’s a lot of good information. And then there’s also you, if you go looking for it, the ear, nose, and throat people have their paper too, and I think Hayes Wanamaker was one of the authors on that paper, or at least on that position statement.

Teddy Nappen 06:11

Honestly, I feel that this is going to be very important. As I believe, I think it’s NRA or GOA or pro gun there, they just submitted their challenges to the NFA. The fact that they are removing the tax on the suppressor.

Dr. John Edeen 06:27

Right. It makes perfect sense.

Teddy Nappen 06:27

So, yeah. I wouldn’t be surprised. Like, you know, you might get a call or two saying, hey, we want some information, because we’re going to arm this up. But that is going to be very helpful and benefit, because it’s always a fight for freedom, just kind of going into it.

Teddy Nappen 06:29

Now, this is something that happens with a good chunk of us. Every time I go into the doctor’s office, there’s two things that always happen. One, he always calls me fat. Number two, he always asks if I possess firearms. So, what is up with that?

Dr. John Edeen 06:46

Well, you know, a lot of the major organizations, the AMA (American Medical Association) and the American Academy of Pediatrics, they’re all influenced by the Left. They’re Northeastern, you know, academia. Their whole goal is to disarm you so that they can do their Leftist stuff to you, and that’s why we, as gun owners, want to keep our rights so that we can keep them from doing the stuff they want to do to us. Because we’ll be armed and they won’t be able to do anything to us.

Dr. John Edeen 07:39

So, here’s the thing. First of all, doctors don’t receive any training in firearms. Firearm safety, you know, firearms mechanics, how guns work. They’re completely unqualified. And remember gun ownership is a civil right, you know, and as a consumer, you have a lot of power in the doctor/ patient relationship. So, don’t be afraid to use it. First of all, you can refuse to answer their question. In fact, I think was it Tom Gresham used to say, basically, it’s not a sin to lie somebody that has no business knowing the answer. And this is one of the things. You know, I’m not necessarily telling you to lie to your doctor about everything else, but frankly, for this, this is one of those things that they have no business even asking you or knowing.

Dr. John Edeen 08:32

If your health care plan, if this is part of their questionnaire thing, you can complain to them about that. And then also if the doctor, if they persist in asking intrusive questions about this, despite you saying, I’m not, I don’t want to talk about this. This is not why we’re here. There’s a term for that. It’s called an ethical boundary violation. And basically what that is, is that the physician is pushing an agenda that doesn’t necessarily benefit the patient. It’s, you know, they’re doing a political thing that’s not necessarily in your long-term benefit. And that’s an ethical boundary violation.

Dr. John Edeen 09:15

And probably the best example of an ethical boundary violation is having sex with your patient. That’s how bad this is. And you are allowed to complain to your professional board, the State Medical Board, and it’s a big deal when that happens. It requires the doctor to jump through a whole lot of hoops, and frankly, the process is the punishment. It’s not much of a fun thing to go through, having had complaints put against me in the past. It’s no good, honestly.

Teddy Nappen 09:51

I’ll save that the next time they ask me my pronouns.

Dr. John Edeen 09:55

Exactly.

Dr. John Edeen 09:56

Now, here’s another thing. This is my favorite thing to say, and by the way, a lot of this is at DRGO.us, it’s just the question, the medical question. This is my favorite one, though. Ask the doctor, so, doctor, does your insurance company know that you’re practicing outside of your expertise in medical practice? And if I’m harmed by the advice that you give me, will your malpractice insurer cover you to my benefit? Even despite the fact that you are practicing outside of the scope of practice that you’re credentialed in?

Dr. John Edeen 10:34

And that usually will shut them up faster than anything else. Because they realize, oh, my goodness, I’ve stepped on it. I’m out. I’m out of, I’m out of bounds, basically, at that point, because, you know. And the other thing you can ask him is, you know, what organization certifies you to give firearms advice? And if it’s the AMA, say, well, I’d like to see that AMA course on firearm safety. It doesn’t exist. It’s, it’s, you know. Even though I think isn’t it one of the Bloomberg groups that is actually doing a firearm safety thing?

Teddy Nappen 11:08

Correct. Every time. They are doing that. EveryTown is putting out a certification course. Yeah, well, BearingArms did a whole article on it. (https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2025/10/18/everytown-is-having-a-rough-time-and-were-here-for-it-n1230299) I wish I could pull it up for you.

Teddy Nappen 11:21

But what they did was they had a guy who did, who knows who does the certifications, knows what it was. And it was this complete anti-gun bias all up and down.

Dr. John Edeen 11:33

Of course it was.

Teddy Nappen 11:34

Like, yeah, it was just galore. And it was like, oh, my God. It’s like having a vegan teach you how to do butcher like, you know, butchering. Like it was so disgusting,

Dr. John Edeen 11:48

Yeah, and it doesn’t surprise me. Because their intent is not gun safety, it’s gun confiscation. You know it, I know it. Your dad knows it. I mean, you know, as you like to say, Registration, and then, you know, Confiscation, and then you know Extermination, you know, that’s what they’re after.

Teddy Nappen 12:10

The step you missed. And this is what we always need to remember. It always begins with Legislation. So, everyone get out and vote.

Dr. John Edeen 12:17

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Teddy Nappen 12:19

Like your life depended on it, so.

Dr. John Edeen 12:21

Because it does.

Teddy Nappen 12:23

Yeah. And going off of that and kind of one of the other topics, and this has been coming up a lot. I don’t know if you’re too familiar in New Jersey, what’s been going on with mental health commitments, of what they’ve kind of abused that, where they recently made a change under the Carry Killer law, where now voluntaries are considered involuntaries. So, instead of just getting a doctor’s letter saying you’re fine for a voluntary stay, you need a full expungement. That is a whole legal procedure that takes a mass amounts of time, money and effort to get cleared. Which, by the way, sometimes the records don’t even exist because they would destroy them after a certain amount of years. And in some ways, they can construe like rehab. So, what is your view on that when it comes to the mental health commitments for where they’re been making people equivalent of convicted felons?

Dr. John Edeen 13:18

Well, I mean, first of all, there are people that have mental illnesses that they probably shouldn’t own guns. And we have to differentiate those people. People with like, you know, chronic schizophrenia, where they have impaired reality testing, versus somebody who, you know, they just went through a divorce and was a little down. And, you know, situational, normal, reactive times of depression. And, you know, that’s a different area. And what you’re trying to do is conflate that with somebody who’s, you know, basically, you know, a psycho killer. You know what I’m saying?

Teddy Nappen 13:58

Yeah, I they do. My favorite one. I always highlight this to people. A guy is like in his 70s, 80s, and is denied because he was an unruly child when he was seven, and that didn’t screws him out of his gun rights because it was an involuntary commitment when he was seven for a day. Like, that’s disgusting.

Dr. John Edeen 14:20

Yeah, no. In fact that, in and of itself, shows you the extent that they’ll go to try to disarm people. And the whole thing is a travesty. And frankly, I mean, lawyers like you guys ought to be going after that kind of stuff, because it doesn’t give anybody due process. You have no ability to, you know, fight it, basically, you know. If they make a law that says, you know, 50 years ago, you know, you were, you had ADHD, and you went a little crazy, and you ended up in the hospital. Or, you know, you took some pills, and you got, you know, you were hallucinating, or something like that, and you end up in the hospital. That’s not necessarily something that you should lose your rights over.

Teddy Nappen 15:09

Yeah, and, quite frankly, just the level of what it takes to even get the records cleared. The judges have such broad discretion that, I mean, they can just say, oh, yeah, everything’s here. You’ve met the criteria. Doctor says you’re fine, but I’m still going to deny you because of character, temperament and whatever weasel clause they use.

Dr. John Edeen 15:35

But under Bruen, that’s not allowed, is it? I mean, that’s the whole thing. It has to be a distinct set of criteria, not.

Teddy Nappen 15:45

The issue is, when it comes to mental health expungements, the three pillars they have. Under the law for mental health expungements, you have the medical history, then you have criminal history, and then community ties and relations, which, that’s the catch all. That was how they were going about denying people. So, now they have to go through this massive character factor issues that have to go through that, and it’s just. It’s a laundry list of issues that come into play for people. So, it’s something that definitely is quite disgusting. And luckily, the firm, the law firm, handles that pretty well. But it’s just, it’s always such a fight for these people, because they just destroy people’s lives in New Jersey.

Dr. John Edeen 16:33

They do, and it’s horrible. It’s absolutely horrible. And frankly, you know, fortunately, we have good people on the medical side, too. You know, you and I both know a lot of those people, and at least, but you know, it costs money. Then it costs time, and it costs mental anguish. You know, this whole, they’re putting you through it again. You know the process is the punishment, and they’re trying to discourage people from owning firearms. It’s all about disarming people, period.

Teddy Nappen 17:08

So, on that note, I will just, I think, as a way to cheer your mode. I want to talk about our good buddies at WeShoot. As our people may know, our good friends at WeShoot offer classes on getting your CCARE certification so you can get your New Jersey Permit to Carry. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They have a fantastic facility with great training and a great pro shop. They have all kinds of deals and specials. We love WeShoot. It’s where I and my father go and shoot, and we got our certifications. If you go there and mention Gun Lawyer, you’ll be treated like a king. If not, you’ll still be treated like a king, because they are the best. Go to weshootusa.com. That’s their website. Beautiful photos, and don’t miss the WeShoot girls as they’re posing with gorgeous guns. And there are guns that you can buy, and they have great deals, great sales. They can not only, they can not only sell you the guns, but also they can teach you how to effectively use them as well. Check out weshootusa.com. WeShoot is conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey, right off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did.

Teddy Nappen 18:16

And let me also mention our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). And the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs just had a case in the federal court where the appellate court gave a mixed win at the moment. But of course, the fight never ends. It was, we’ll call it a partial victory regarding sensitive places in the Carry Killer bill. Essentially, what the status quo is at the moment has been maintained. You can still carry in your vehicle with the carjacker protection law that was still enjoined. You can carry concealed, loaded on your person in your vehicle with a New Jersey Carry Permit. That is still enjoined. And you can do that because, remember, the Carry Killer Bill tried to prevent it.

Teddy Nappen 19:02

You can still go on private property, as long as it’s open to the public and not otherwise a sensitive place. We lost a little bit in terms of filming locations, in terms of movie filming, and in terms of transporting on public transportation. You’re going to have to have the gun cased and unloaded, etc., if you’re going to be riding a bus or train. However, interestingly, they found that the $50 fee portion that goes to the State was unlawful. It’s unlawful because it went to the VCCB, which is the Victim’s Crime Compensation Board. Under case law, you cannot have a fee for the license not actually go to regulatory activity. That is the purpose of the fee. That has been knocked out. So, now you only have to pay the $150, and if you live in any town that is refunding, such as Englishtown, which was one of the first to start it, they’ll refund their $150. So, you can actually get your carry permit in New Jersey for free.

Teddy Nappen 20:04

And the fight continues. This is just one step as we go along, challenging the Second Amendment oppressionists legislation as they’ve laid it upon us. And the Association is in the forefront fighting for your rights. Make sure you’re a member of the anjrpc.org That’s anjrpc.org.

Teddy Nappen 20:23

And before we finish off the ads, let me shamelessly plug my father’s book, New Jersey Gun Law. The Bible of New Jersey gun laws. You can get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com. And you’ll be glad you did. Because it helps keep yourself out of the New Jersey Gun Owner Gulag. It helps you navigate the very complex course that has been laid out by the gun rights oppressionists who try to trip up and turn you into a criminal. To stop you from being a defender instead of a victim. You need to be a defender instead of a victim, especially since the police have no duty protect you, as you know. So, get the book. You’ll be glad you did. Go to EvanNappen.com and look for the big orange book. Order today, and when you get it, make sure you scan the front cover and get in the private subscriber base. You’ll be able to immediately access the archives, and you’ll get the up to date, including be able to download the 2025 Comprehensive Update that includes a new standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. Where you can and cannot carry. So, check it out today.

Teddy Nappen 21:27

So, Dr Edeen, one of the other big things that does come up a lot, and this is just something I see. The Left is constantly making this argument where they’ve tried and tried to make firearms a health issue. They always try to conflate that. And I don’t know if there was anything you can highlight to us like where did that kind of start or any spot to where you can kind of give your opinion on that issue?

Dr. John Edeen 21:59

Well, it goes back probably 20 to 30 years. They’ve been trying to push the public health issue side of this thing. And frankly, doctors have no control over the public health issue, over the “gun violence” issue. It’s not a public health issue. It’s a criminology issue. You have to, when you look at Dr John Lott’s research, it’s the same people over and over again in a very small area that are the recurrent perpetrators of the violent acts and end up causing the “gun violence”. So, it’s really not a, you know, public health issue.

Dr. John Edeen 22:46

It’s not like it’s a disease that you can stop, you know. I mean, I mean, if you can intervene at the gang level, and, you know, get the kids not to go into the gangs, that might be some kind of a public health thing that you can do. But that’s about as close as you’re going to get to preventing this, you know. Because this is really a gang violence problem. It’s a criminal, it’s a criminal violence problem, but it’s not a public health problem.

Dr. John Edeen 23:16

The beauty is that trauma medicine has evolved so well that we’re still able to save a lot of people when they get shot. If you can make it to the hospital alive, you’re probably going to survive. You know, the trauma centers and the trauma systems are set up to help people survive. So, you got these gang bangers, if you look at them, you know, they’ve been shot six times, 10 times. They end up getting shot. They go to the hospital, and they get patched up. They go back out, and they get into another gunfight. They get shot again. And so these guys aren’t afraid of you or me with a gun. I can tell you that right now, because they’ve been shot already. Most of them have been shot, and they’ve survived it. And so, don’t be surprised if you know one of these guys, you know, if you pull a gun on him, he laughs at you. Unless you’re serious and he realizes that you’re going to, you’re going to shoot him, you know, and you’re going to shoot him down to the ground. He may not be afraid of you. So, it’s really not a public health thing. They like to call it a public health issue, but medicine has no tools to stop a criminal activity. And that’s really the bottom line.

Teddy Nappen 24:27

Honestly, I was thinking of the, I remember there was some crime story where they were interviewing a former gang member, and he covered his face. But he took off his shirt, and he showed like he got shot gunned, like, point blank to the chest, and he lived. And it wasn’t even, like, bird, it was buckshot. So, I’m like, how? But yeah, some people, it’s

Dr. John Edeen 24:51

He’s lucky. They just didn’t hit, they didn’t hit something big enough to cause him to bleed out before he made it to the hospital. You know, they probably took out part of his lung and probably took up, you know, branches of the pulmonary artery in a vain. But it might have Tampa nodded off, or whatever. Or somebody might have stuffed something in there and kept him from bleeding to death. But, you know, I mean, the ability of the trauma surgeons to save people’s lives is pretty amazing.

Dr. John Edeen 25:17

Man, I was a military surgeon back in the, in the, you know, the 1980s and early, mid 80s to mid 90s.

Teddy Nappen 25:25

A saw bones, were you?

Dr. John Edeen 25:26

Oh, yeah. I mean, I am a saw bones. I’m an orthopedic surgeon. That’s what I do. I saw bones and correct them. Straighten them out, put screws and plates in them and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, the bottom line is that, especially like, since the global war on terror, trauma medicine has evolved and evolved. You know, people were using tourniquets and now we have quick clot. I mean, I carry a tourniquet and quick clot in my pocket wherever I go. I have it with me 24/7. because those are the most effective things in my view. You can, you can kind of jury rig, you know, a chest seal out of the packet for that, that troop, the clot gauze or, you know, with some duct tape or whatever. But the bottom line is, is stopping that, you know, stopping the bleeding is probably the most important thing for people to survive, you know, penetrating trauma

Teddy Nappen 26:20

Is there a tourniquet you would recommend for someone to carry?

Dr. John Edeen 26:24

I use the soft T wide, but the cat tourniquet is also good. Both of them are. They’re kind of the tourniquets of choice, put out by the military trauma people. I mean, there are other tourniquets out there too, but those are the recommended ones by the Committee on trauma.

Teddy Nappen 26:47

Honestly, that’s pretty good advice. I might actually start doing that.

Dr. John Edeen 26:51

Yeah, I have, I keep it. I wear scrubs all the time, and I have, you know, pockets, five pockets. And my scrubs are like cargo pockets. So, I’ll throw a tourniquet on one side and two things of quick clot gauze on the other, and just carry that. It’s easy to do. You don’t even know it’s there.

Teddy Nappen 27:10

I’ll definitely consider that. So, I know you touched on this. What is your opinion of the AMA and their position on firearms. I think you touched on it, but I think let’s paint it very clear as to kind of the enemies of our rights.

Dr. John Edeen 27:31

Can I say they’re a bunch of commies?

Teddy Nappen 27:33

You may do so. I fully believe it.

Dr. John Edeen 27:36

Yeah. And they want to take, they want to take over. They want to take over medicine, first of all, and here’s something. Let’s look at what happened during the Covid crisis. The medical community sold us all out for money. I’m on something called the Profession. I was on the Professional Staff Committee. They just dissolved it about a month ago.

Dr. John Edeen 28:03

But during Covid, I kept asking the powers that be. I said, why are we not doing any studies on ivermectin or what’s the other stuff? I can’t remember. Anyway, yeah, hydroxychloroquine. Why don’t we? Why aren’t we doing any studies on that? Well, you know, why aren’t we, you know, treating people early when they show up with a positive covid test. Why aren’t we giving them something to treat them? Why are we waiting till they’re on death’s door and then we put them in the hospital? Oh, yeah, and we get $40,000 a day from the federal government to treat each one of those patients in the hospital. But we get zippo when we treat them, you know, with medication.

Dr. John Edeen 28:47

And then the other thing is in order to get approval for an emergency use of a vaccine, there has to be no other medical treatment available. So, this is all about the billions of dollars that were available through the Government to Big Pharma, which was then also through Government passing down money, you know, to the hospitals. And so, we were sold out by medicine. And I’m a doctor, you know, and I could see it. You follow the money. I’ve been talking about this for five years now. I mean, since probably 2020, for five years, I’ve been talking about the fact that you have to follow the money to find out what’s going on. And we’ve been sold out by the, you know, the Big Pharma. We’ve been sold out by the American Medical Association. We’ve been sold out by the Centers for Disease Control, and we’ve been sold out by our Government. And this whole thing is, you know, this is the public health issue, not guns. Okay?

Dr. John Edeen 29:56

You know, the AMA is a Left wing organization. They’re crooked as, you know, what? And, you know, I don’t trust anything they say. And I’ve been dealing with, you know, my dad’s 97 right now. He broke his hip six months ago. We’re dealing with, you know, we’re dealing with all the health issues. They can’t get anything done, you know. And the whole system is corrupt.

Teddy Nappen 30:21

I completely understand that. We’ve had a lot of family where it’s always you’ve got to know somebody, but it’s just the games they play and the hoops they make you jump through. To the point I’m just, I always love at the end of every email you get from the hospital, it’s from the World Health Organization. I’m like, oh, that’s all, that really helps.

Dr. John Edeen 30:43

Yeah, it’s not, it’s not healthy at all.

Teddy Nappen 30:46

Nah, no, yeah, yeah. But on the one, the last questions, you’ve been very informative on all this, and I think our listeners will appreciate someone of your position and knowledge putting that out for people. Because they need to arm themselves and hear the truth. Regarding, what is your view on the health benefits of children and guns together, getting the early experience of firearms? I don’t know if you had anything on that.

Dr. John Edeen 31:16

Well, you know, kids and firearms, under good supervision, children can learn anything, right? And we’ve all seen organizations where children are taught how to use a .22 pistol to do target shooting, or shoot it using a shotgun for target shooting or whatever. Those kids step up, and they mature. And so, as far as I’m concerned, supervised firearms training and children is actually a great thing.

Dr. John Edeen 31:51

Because it allows, I mean, I live in Texas, okay? We’ve got ranches all over the place. Kids are hunting from, from the you know, they’re, you know, age 10 and beyond. They go out in the woods with their .22 rifle and shoot, you know, squirrels and whatever? Do I see kids getting shot? Yeah, I see kids shooting themselves once in a while, and the first thing I ask them is, so, what are the rules of gun safety? And you know, most of them don’t know that answer.

Dr. John Edeen 32:21

But you can ask some of the other kids, you know, some of the kids, they’re, you know, they’re competitive shotgunners. You know, that’s one of the biggest sports in the country. Did you know that? Shotgun sports? Yeah, the high school championships in the Midwest are huge. You don’t hear about it in New Jersey. But in other places in the country, there’s a lot, there’s a lot. It’s bigger than football in some places. And so, yes.

Dr. John Edeen 32:50

But if you look up, you look up shotgun sports and kids, you know skeet shooting and trap shooting and stuff like that. It’s a big deal on the Midwest. There are leagues, and they’re, you know, they’re like, it’s like, your team, you know, your high school team plays against the other high school team in shot gunning. It’s great stuff. So, you know, it’s limited in in certain places. You know, they try to suppress it, but in other places where it’s allowed, it blooms. And it’s just phenomenal for kids,. Because it helps them mature, and it’s a social thing. And it helps them with, you know, just developing responsibility, a sense of accomplishment. It’s that whole thing. Now, why people? Why kids do sports? It’s to develop into a into a good, responsible adult.

Teddy Nappen 33:46

It’s definitely, I see that benefit. And quite frankly, I remember when my uncle would talk about, like, he would go to elementary school, take his shotgun, put in his cubby. Then finish off school, and then when he was done, he’d go turkey hunting right after. Like, it’s that culture of training and growing up with firearms that I think is very benefit. And honestly, that’s why I think there are some schools now doing, like, firearm safety training as part of the school curriculum. They need to understand that. So, but, um, yeah, that’s actually very interesting on that. And I didn’t realize how popular it is.

Dr. John Edeen 34:21

Oh, yeah. It’s a huge thing. Huge.

Teddy Nappen 34:25

Huge. Nice.

Dr. John Edeen 34:26

Huge.

Teddy Nappen 34:30

Well, you gotta love it. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man, anytime I hear him like speak, it’s his us, wrong. No, it’s a stupid question, move along, like.

Dr. John Edeen 34:45

He is hilarious.

Teddy Nappen 34:47

Oh, yeah. So, yep. That is all the questions I wanted to ask regarding that, and I wanted to thank you for your time and just and discussing these issues. And again, can you repeat the organization and where they can find a lot of this information. Because.

Teddy Nappen 35:03

Sure.

Teddy Nappen 35:03

Again, I want everyone to take their time to listen and read this stuff, because it is important.

Dr. John Edeen 35:09

There’s so much on our website, you can’t read it all. I’ll tell you that right now. Our document archives goes back into the 1990s. So, we have, you know, on our blog, we have stuff from a lot. There’s stuff that I’ve written. They’ve actually published or republished two of the articles that I wrote. One was about an active shooter in the hospital. It’s called “The unthinkable: an active shooter in the hospital.” I wrote that in our local magazine for our medical society. And then I also wrote for USCCA, an article about terrorism against hospitals world wide, and I wrote that in, I think, 2015. That’s also reprinted. So, that’s some of the stuff that I’ve written. Plus, there’s more that I’ve written. But there are positions and resources, guns and public health, gun safety, gun research, gun question, EMRs and gun suppressors and hearing protective orders and external resources.

Dr. John Edeen 36:11

Article archives by a bunch of us, and then there’s just document archives. There’s media stuff or blog. It just goes, it goes on and on and on. We’re also on like Facebook. And Rob Young publishes a lot of stuff there. There’s a lot of interactive stuff, too. So, you can interact with him. Rob Young is our director and again, we are part of the Second Amendment Foundation. If you’re interested in becoming a member, you can go to DRGO.us and just join. There’s a tab for “join now.” It’s like 35 bucks, but it’s worth it, especially if you’re in the healthcare profession. We would love to have you write articles. And you know, it’s just a good bunch of folks. I’ll just leave it at that. But this is a great resource. A great resource.

Teddy Nappen 37:07

Yep, and to anyone out there who is a doctor and is pro-gun, I mean, your voice needs to be heard. Because, like he said, good chunk of them are not, and I think we need to have that out there. There needs to be good doctors, ones you can actually trust and have your backing and aren’t trying to take away your rights.

Dr. John Edeen 37:27

Absolutely. And we’re the good ones.

Teddy Nappen 37:31

I know, right?

Dr. John Edeen 37:33

We’re the good guys. I will never try to take away your guns, believe me. Never in a million years.

Teddy Nappen 37:39

Yep. So, you can catch now. This is what we do at the end of the show, known as the GOFUs, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. It’s a lesson that other people have learned, so anyone listening can learn it without having to pay the price. And this is a lesson that has recently come up. If you are ever you know, arrested or the cop says, you’re not free to leave, shut up! People, men have died for your for those rights. Stand on them. Remain silent and ask for your attorney. That is it.

Teddy Nappen 38:18

If you are arrested, you are arrested, but do not say anything. If the cop goes up to you and says, oh, I talked to the other guy, but I want to get your side of the story. You say, I have nothing to say. Talk to my attorney. That is it. You do not need to give that side of the story. At best, it’s neutral and doesn’t affect the outcome, and you’ll still be and probably still be arrested. At worst, you’re hurting yourself, and it’s how it goes.

Teddy Nappen 38:47

My father always highlights this all the time. Where Martha Stewart, you know, what she went to jail for wasn’t tax evasion. It wasn’t for taxes. It was for lying to the police. Do you know how you can avoid lying to the police? Don’t say anything. That’s how it goes. So with that, thank you to my guest, Dr. John Edeen, for coming on here.

Teddy Nappen 39:08

I am Teddy Nappen, reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 39:17

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E260_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 259-AG Stands for “Anti-Gun”Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 259 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Anti-gun movement, New Jersey, Attorney General Matthew Platkin, Safe Office, Bruen decision, gun rights, firearm enforcement, Butcher’s Gun World, legal swatting, ghost guns, New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Club, carry permit, New Jersey gun law, pork roll controversy, gun lawyer.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Teddy Nappen 00:15
I’m Teddy Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. My father is allowed to be on vacation and could not make it to the episode, but don’t worry, he’ll come back. I know we were going into details on the face of the anti-gun movement. We talked about who is truly the effective anti-gun, gun rights oppressionists of New Jersey. Everyone might just shout out, oh, Governor Murphy, obviously. I get that. However, there is one individual who has become the attack dog or spearhead of the anti-gun agenda in New Jersey and has been very effective at attacking our rights. Even now, as we have the Bruen decision, as we have many pro-gun avenues like Ford, where we’re getting far more wins than we could have ever imagined. The one individual who has been an absolute destroyer of our rights is Attorney General Matthew J. Platkin.

Teddy Nappen 01:31
Now, we’ve talked about Platkin with his SAFE Office, the Statewide Affirmative Firearms Enforcement Office. It sounds really official. They have used this as a weaponization against our rights because they’ve already conceded the grounds of, okay, they can’t win legally in terms of Constitutionality. We’re winning on those fronts, slowly but surely. They can’t win on the voice of ideas, because the anti-gun arguments are immediately shut down. The only time they can ever even attempt to pull something out is whenever there’s a mass shooting and they try to blood dance. But with the Charlie Kirk assassination,, the ICE attack and then every single Left wing attack, the conversation has pivoted to mental health and highlighting those factors. So essentially, we’ve won in terms of the argument ideas.

Teddy Nappen 02:30
So, they can’t win on Constitutionality. They can’t win in the open forum of ideas. What do they have left? Well, Platkin found his avenue. We talked about how the AG launched two suits. They were going after two gun shops, basically saying that they violated New Jersey’s law. This is actually on the AG’s website, and he’s bragging about it. (https://www.njoag.gov/ag-platkin-announces-victory-in-gun-store- case/) Like he’s not hiding it. This is what he is doing. Attorney General Matthew Platkin announces a significant victory against Butch’s Gun World, a Vineland gun store that sold over 1000 rounds of AR-15 ammunition and other gun-related products. Gun-related products. And what does that apply to? An accessory. A sling, a piece of metal. Like what is it. They just, whatever. Whatever catch-all term that they have, and without making any efforts to determine that they could lawfully possess a firearm, which, whatever. That’s not how the law is applied. But you know, what does that fall to the Attorney General.
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Teddy Nappen 03:44
He goes into great detail on how he just brags about it, where the SAFE Office launched their attack in March of 2025 with two retailers. The one that settled where, essentially now the gun shop has to send all transactions, all transactions, any gun-related transactions they have to send to the office. So, you’re not only registering guns, you’re not only registering ammunition, you’re registering any gun-related products. This is the gun rights suppressor’s wet dream. Gathering their list of any and all things that are even related to guns. The one group settled. However, Butch’s Gun World actually tried to fight it. And I love this part of the article where Judge Robert Malestein of the New Jersey Superior Court, Chancellors Division, rejected Butch’s Gun World’s attempt to avoid liability. The ruling noted the facts of the case that Butch’s Gun World, established by SAFE undercover investigators, were not in dispute. Okay? Not in dispute. They’re disputing that what they had there was legal. Not that the undercovers are saying that it is illegal. And held that there was no evidence that Butch’s Gun World had established any controls regarding the sales of gun-related products.

Teddy Nappen 05:12
What controls were they required? What controls are needed for that? There wasn’t anything needed for gun-related products. And this is my favorite part. The court therefore granted summary judgment in favor of the Attorney General, issued an injunction compelling Butcher’s Gun World to immediately comply with the Firearm Industry Public Safety Law. And what is the requirements that the AG has now tacked on? Ask for a government-issued photo identification such as a driver’s license potential buyer to card or permit that lack of photo identification. Keep records of all sales of gun-related products, detailing the verifications means of each sale for three years. Transmit those records to the SAFE office and write a set of policies used to educate and train each of the staff in terms of the injunction of those written policies within the space of the accessibility to staff during business hours.

Teddy Nappen 06:16
So what does that mean? Now this shop, this gun shop, has to effectively report all of their sales transactions. Not just guns. Not just ammunition. Anything that they determine to be gun-related products, and now they have to send it all to the SAFE office. What are they doing with that information? Well, obviously they’re making, compiling, a massive registry and records. Keeping track of all purchases. I wonder why they’re doing that? Something, something. Legislation leads to Registration, leads to Confiscation, leads to Extermination. That’s the game. It doesn’t go into detail regarding if he’s challenging the court’s summary judgment. I would. This is insanity for the for them to not be allowed. There was no dispute that everything was done legally and that the AG is weaponizing the SAFE office to go after gun shops. Because now they’re trying to do that.

Teddy Nappen 07:23
I love the Left’s term. They’re trying to coin the term, food desert. Which, by the way, a food desert is a myth. You can. That’s ridiculous. And now they’re trying to do news deserts with the defunding of PBS. Well, here’s the actual strategy, gun deserts. That is their goal. Gun deserts. Fine. You can have your rights. Good luck trying to get a firearm. And they’re trying to go after these shops any way they can. And this is the highlight of Platkin’s career, as there have been many things that he has done when he was appointed by Governor Murphy. This is going off of the Democrat Attorney General Association, which is one heck of a group. (https://dems.ag/profile/matthew-platkin/) You can just see here are all the gun rights oppressors all listed out, and they’re pushed to go after our rights. He has launched his attacks, and all this is on his website.
Page 2 of 6
Teddy Nappen 08:20
He’s bragging about his attacks. I love this. He sent a letter to Glock after suing them. A letter being issued by the City of Chicago in that where they march, they Chicago had filed suits against Glock, knowing their guns can be easily adopted to make into a machine gun with the addition of an auto sear. I love how they always tote the auto seer. They always try to drag those things in every single time. Really, that’s the threat? The current issue of crime that people do? Yeah, the massive influx of auto sears. Yeah, that’s the real problem. And the City said machine guns have become a weapon of choice for the criminals of Chicago. Yeah, yeah. Not the fact that it’s just a pistol, typically, not an actual machine gun, like. And the letter detailing that they had sent out basically modification to Glock handguns through the use of switches. How Glock pistols are designed to develop a function as semiotic, any efforts Glock may have taken in considering and Glocks knowledge about all state and federal laws regulating the Glock switches and converting Glock machine guns. Legal responsibility as a manufacturer these guns, whether they follow the law and financial details about Glock pistols, including profits, manufacturing, distribution costs. Oh, that’s nice. Yeah, Glock just hand over all their details on who you’ve been selling to, who’s been buying and selling Glock pistols, and keep track of those. That’s always the goal they want. It’s all about control, yeah. And then they highlighted their suit against Glock for violating state firearm industries for New Jersey.

Teddy Nappen 10:19
And then, of course, he tacked himself on with 20 other Attorney Generals in their amicus brief on the new federal rule regarding ghost guns. Ghost guns. Unserialized weapons that are often made at home – kits, parts, completely framed receivers. It can be purchased without any background check. Such weapons are illegal in New Jersey. The rule would ensure that buyers pass background checks before purchasing such kits. They see here, just trying to justify the gun control movement by going after Glock switches, ghost guns and targeting dealers because that is all they have now. They know they can’t win in any other form of attacks, and now they’re going to sue us out of our rights. That’s the only thing left they have.

Teddy Nappen 11:20
And I also love this one, too. He also spearheaded with the SAFE office to install an app for legal swatting, essentially. This comes from New Jersey Health and News, which, that’s the whole goal. The app will be available for download on mobile devices. It allows you to submit anonymous reporting. Youth and Families can anonymously request help for mental health issues, housing and food security, domestic violence. There it is. Among other concerns, the initial builds the existence of the NJ DOH school-based infrastructure already providing the opportunity to New Jersey’s highest need districts by connecting with existing youth family wellness programs currently in New Jersey school district safe. New Jersey will become a key element of the continuum service provided by the new NJ DOH, aimed at keeping students, staff and families safe.

Teddy Nappen 12:17
What does that mean? Now, you have anonymous reporting where someone can say something. Oh, a kid disagrees with his father and downloads the app. He writes that my father is a gun owner, and we had an argument. And now you submit that and, boom, Red Flag. That’s how they do it. They want to make it easy because that’s what they do. That’s what they want to do. To create this legalized swatting. And they always tie it to “stop school violence” or to “improve school safety”. They always highlight that. You know, I’m waiting for when these app, when they actually can see the abuse that
Page 3 of 6
comes into play and see the messages that are actually posted on there. Because what? Someone says that, and you’re just taking the word from an anonymous post from them, and that destroys lives.

Teddy Nappen 13:19
We’ve seen this time and time again. We’ve seen people where, you know, the domestic violence is the he annoyed me or he threw pretzels at me. That level of domestic violence. And that’s how lives are destroyed. That’s how rights are destroyed, are taken. And this is what Platkin’s goal. This is what he wants to do. And you see that where the whole game is that they’re trying to aim for. They want to sue our rights into oblivion. And God forbid you are ever in a moment where you need to use your firearm for self-defense. Because that’s the only thing else they can do. They’ll take you to court, and more than likely, they’ll lose. But they don’t care. They’ll destroy your life. They’ll tote you out there and turn you into Daniel Penny or Kyle Rittenhouse, trying to destroy your character when they were both fully justified in their actions and proven not guilty. It’s something that definitely the fight goes on. Always, when it comes to these individuals.

Teddy Nappen 14:25
So, I think we need a cheerier note on when you are carrying and you need to prep yourselves. You guys should go out to our buddies at WeShoot. WeShoot offers the classes to get your CCARE certifications so you can get your New Jersey Permit to Carry. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They have fantastic facilities with great training and a great pro shop. They have all kinds of deals and specials. We love WeShoot. That’s where myself and my father go and where we got our Certifications. Just go there and mention Gun Lawyer, and you’ll be treated like royalty. And if you don’t mention Gun Lawyer, you’ll still be treated like royalty. Because they’re the best. WeShootusa.com is their website with beautiful photos, and you don’t want to miss the WeShoot girls that are posing with gorgeous guns. And those the guns that they have, that you can buy, and they have great deals, great sales. They can not only sell you the guns, but also teach you how to effectively use them. Check out weshootusa.com. WeShoot is conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey, right off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did it.

Teddy Nappen 15:40
And again, going at the legality of currently fighting the good fight against the gun rights oppressors and laws that are in New Jersey. Let’s talk about our friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC just had a decision in federal court where the Appellate Court gave a mixed win at the moment. But, of course, the fight isn’t over. We’ll call it a partial victory regarding “sensitive places”, the Carry Killer bill, essentially what the status quo is at the moment has been maintained. You can still carry in your vehicle with the carjacker protection law that has still been enjoined. You can conceal carry loaded on your person in your vehicle with a New Jersey Permit to Carry. That is still enjoined. And you can do that because, remember the Carry Kill Bill tried to prevent that. You can still go on your property, private property, as long as it’s open to the public and not otherwise a “sensitive place”.

Teddy Nappen 16:40
We lost a little bit in terms of filming locations, in terms of movie filming, and in terms of transporting on public transportation. You’re going to have to have a gun case to unload, etc. if you’re going to be riding the bus or the train. That’s still been enjoyed. You can still, you going into. However, interestingly, they found that the $200 fee that was $50 portion that goes to the State was unlawful. Unlawful because it was to the VCCB, which is the Victims Crime Compensation Board. Under case law, you cannot have a fee for a licensing not go to an actual regulatory activity. That is the purpose of the fee. That has been
Page 4 of 6
knocked out. So, now the price for the New Jersey Carry Permit is $150, and if you live in any of those towns that are refunding it, such as Englishtown, which was one of the first started, we’re seeing refunding their $150. So, you can actually get the Carry Permit in New Jersey for free. And the fight continues. This is just one step that we go along challenging the Second Amendment oppressionists legislation that they lay upon, that they lay upon us. And the Association is at the forefront. They are the spearhead. They are fighting for your rights. Make sure you are a member anjrpc.org. That is anjrpc.org.

Teddy Nappen 18:21
And why not? I will shamelessly plug my father’s book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. You can get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com, and you’ll be glad you did it. Because you can keep yourself out of the Gun Owner Gulag by familiarizing yourself with the various rights and issues that are, that keep coming up in New Jersey. It’ll help you navigate the complexity of the laws and all the traps that have been laid out by the gun rights oppressionists who try to trip you up and turn you into a criminal. You’ll need to be a defender instead of a victim, especially since the police have no duty to protect you. And now you know the book. You’ll be glad you got it. Go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see the big orange book. Order it today, and when you get it, scan the front cover. Make sure you get into the private subscriber base. You’ll have immediate access to the archives so your book stays up to date. We’ll be sending out updates, and you can download the 2025 Comprehensive Update that includes a new standalone chapter on “sensitive places”, where you can or cannot carry. So, check it out today.

Teddy Nappen 19:45
And with that Press Checks. I don’t know if you guys have been seeing this online, and I just thought it was hilarious. I think we need a bit of levity. The Democrat nominee known as Mikie Sherrill, I love this, went on a podcast interview. (https://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/virginia-native-mikie-sherrill-says- nobody-likes-gross-pork-roll-in-new-jersey/) They were doing a fluff piece about New Jersey. Just a highlight. She’s Virginia-born Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, and she goes on there. And then, of course, New Jersey asks the question, hey, Taylor ham or pork roll? So, she says, Taylor ham. First of all, she just violated federal law by calling it Taylor ham. It’s not Taylor ham. It’s pork roll. That was our most popular episode here on Gun Lawyer. But what she added, followed up with, that is hilarious. She went and said, who eats pork roll? Not me. I think that’s gross. I don’t even know what it is.

Teddy Nappen 20:40
Oh, my God. You are running for the New Jersey Governor. I mean, it’s the state sandwich. It’s pork roll. The disconnect on this woman to say that I don’t like pork roll. Pork roll is gross. Just how tone deaf do you have to be? I mean, no wonder it’s so close where it’s 43/43. Like that would knock a good chunk of people out of there. She doesn’t even know what it is. You know what it is. It is the taste of freedom, the last bit of freedom that is in New Jersey when you bite into a pork roll, egg and cheese on a hard roll. That sandwich with just a little bit of ketchup. Gotta add the ketchup. Just adds to the flavor. You’ve got to do it. That sandwich is very symbol and hope that is in New Jersey. And she says, oh, it’s gross. And of course, her opponent, Jack Ciattarelli, jumped on it. Where he says, I do. And holding, sure enough, the pork roll, egg and cheese on a hard roll. I didn’t see the ketchup, though, but I won’t hold that against him. He says, you can call it Taylor ham or pork roll. Look, I won’t hold it against him. He should just call it pork roll. But I tell you this right now, if he’s listening, if your campaign is listening to this, here’s your ad. “Mikie doesn’t like it.” Just bumper stickers up and down. Mikie doesn’t like it, and show a picture of a pork roll. That is an effective advertisement. You know, Trump had “Kamala’s for
Page 5 of 6
they/them, I’m for you.” Mikie doesn’t like it. Just put that everywhere, and that will win you the day. What are the ultimate like political befuddles? How can you say pork roll is gross when you’re running for the governorship of New Jersey?

Teddy Nappen 22:40
So, we will end with the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. This is something I’m highlighting as more of a practical rule, count your bullets. What do I mean by that? Whenever you have to take out your firearm and unload, when you’re D gunning, or if you’re traveling, I highly recommend having one of those ammo cases. So, you can check your ammunition and see the count. Because we’ve had too many people where they go to the range or go somewhere and they have loose ammunition that they didn’t know fell out of their mag, which happens. It happens sometimes. And then, you know, he’s pulling up to a school, and the loose round falls out the car. It just creates a whole issue right there, and you’re setting yourself up for the landmine that is New Jersey. Count your bullets, and always check your mags. Make sure you have an accurate count. Okay? That is something that you need to do. Because if you’re not accurate, loose ammunition, bullets fall out, randomly found in pockets, found in suitcases when you go into the airport. Count your ammunition. And with that, this is Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals honest citizens.

Speaker 2 24:07
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page 6 of 6

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E259_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 258-How to Protect Your House of WorshipAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 258 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court case, Wolford vs. Lopez, sensitive places, New Jersey law, carry permit, church security, stun gun, pepper spray, gun violence, anthropomorphic traits, Second Amendment, gun rights, gun laws, gun storage, GOFOU.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I received a letter that I want to talk about that has an important issue in these times. But before I even get to that, I just want to make an announcement. The Supreme Court of the United States just accepted a gun case. So, this is very exciting because we’re now going to get another Supreme Court decision. This case is the Wolford versus Lopez (U.S. Supreme Court Docket No. 24-1046) out of Hawaii, which will most likely impact New Jersey as well. (https://www.scotusblog.com/cases/case-files/wolford-v-lopez/) Because the key issue here is “sensitive places”, specifically, Hawaii’s sensitive place law that requires express permission from a property owner to carry a handgun on private property that is open to the public.

Evan Nappen 01:15
Now, New Jersey has that same type of sensitive place. However, in New Jersey, we won on that one in the court challenge so far in which the requirement that originally stated you had to have permission before you went on any private property, whether open to the public or not. New Jersey split it and said, no, if it’s open to the public, you don’t need that prior permission or a sign hanging on the building that says, we love guns or, you know, come on in. But in Hawaii, the court upheld actually needing permission from a property owner for property that is open to the public. So, for example, in Hawaii, if you have a carry license, you can’t walk into a 7-11 with your gun unless you have expressed permission to go on that private property that’s open to the public. In New Jersey, that is not the case. In New Jersey, you can go into 7-11, but you can’t go into private property that is not open to the public. So, if you’re going to visit your friend, well, your friend better give you permission before you carry your gun there.
Page – 1 – of 8
Evan Nappen 02:33
But what makes this exciting is that the Court, hopefully, in addressing this issue will give us a framework to evaluate other sensitive places, and it may very well have the impact of annihilating most, if not all, of New Jersey’s sensitive places, at least with a test to test their constitutionality. And by the way, the Hawaii challenge is broad and also in their sensitive places, banned guns on beaches, parks, and restaurants that serve alcohol, just like New Jersey has. So, we’ll see how far the Supreme Court goes in its analysis and if it sets up a framework for challenging sensitive place laws that we’re currently in the fight with the State of New Jersey. You know, our great state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, has the ongoing federal litigation challenging New Jersey’s Carry Killer bill, and this should be of great benefit in our fight for Second Amendment rights. Now.

Teddy Nappen 03:46
Out of curiosity, if for the sake of argument, Saint Justice Thomas is listening to Gun Lawyer, what would be the best frame?

Evan Nappen 03:58
Well, that is a very difficult question as to how they will structure the test. Now, one thing that would be just awesome is, but I don’t think it would fly necessarily, is they just say, hey, these are the only sensitive places that are sensitive places, and make it crystal clear that none of the others count. But I don’t think they’re going to do that. They’re probably going to try to structure some type of test and that’s something that we’re going to have to wait and see. I can’t even put forward a test at this time that would cut the bill, but that’s why the Supreme Court Justices get the big bucks. And let’s hope they put a test out there that is makes it pretty narrow as to where our rights get restricted. So, we’ll see how that works.

Evan Nappen 04:52
But in a similar vein, we have a letter here, and this letter is from Chuck. And what Chuck says is, is it legal to carry and use a stun gun or pepper ball dispensing air gun? I have a concealed carry (permit) but am considering other options. We are in the process of a Church security assessment, and I was thinking this and pepper spray would be a good option, less expensive, requiring less training and risk, if used in a less than appropriate manner. As a note, I enjoy your podcast weekly, and I’m a U.S. Law Shield member. Thank you and Peace. Okay, Chuck, thanks. So, as far as the stun gun and/or pepper ball deal, we’re still stuck under the current case law that makes it a problem to preemptively arm yourself for self-defense outside the home with a stun gun or pepper ball type device. You can possess them, and you can have them in your home, but not outside your home. And here we’re talking about in a Church. So, unfortunately, until we get it acknowledged officially in a case, I can’t advise just carrying those around. You have a problem under N.J.S. 2C:39-6, and it is subsection d. specifically, regarding preemptively arming oneself for self-defense outside the home. So, beware of that. Now on pepper spray, you would be allowed to carry three quarters of an ounce or less, which is a rather small container. That is the only pepper spray that’s exempted.

Evan Nappen 06:45
But if you’re going to talk about church security, and we want to talk about lethal security, can you carry your handgun at your house of worship, whether it’s a church, a synagogue, mosque, whatever? Can
Page – 2 – of 8
you do that? And the answer is yes. Houses of worship are not a sensitive place under New Jersey’s Carry Killer law. So, you are allowed to, at least you’re not prohibited from having your legal carry gun that you have a permit for at house of worship. If you participate in that house of worship’s security, that’s up to you, but you would be allowed to carry your gun. However, the danger, or the trap you have to watch out for is, since many houses of worship also happen to have schools – Sunday school, Saturday school, whatever the school is, where it’s part of that facility, then that section that is the school takes on the “sensitive place” designation of a prohibited sensitive place for a school. So, if there’s a separate part of the building or a separate room where the school is, but in the general congregation area, that’s not a school ground, you can carry there. But you can’t go into the school part.

Evan Nappen 08:17
So, if the security team wants to be able to lawfully carry in the part of the house of worship that is a school, then we have to overcome two prohibitions. One is New Jersey’s sensitive place prohibition, but the other is a law that is under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e.. This also can set a trap for the unsuspecting just basically dealing with any school property. So, New Jersey sensitive place says you can’t have it. You can’t carry have your gun into a school. However, if you pull into a parking lot of a sensitive place, New Jersey says, oh, well, you can unload it, lock it, unloaded in a box in your car, and you’re okay if you do that. However, that would satisfy, even though that would satisfy the “sensitive place” prohibition at a school, it does not satisfy the second and other prohibition, which is found under 2C:39-5.e. And what that says is, any person who knowingly has in his possession any firearm in or upon any part of the buildings or grounds of any school, college, university or other educational institution, without the written authorization of the governing officer of the institution, is guilty of a crime. So, if you park on the grounds of the school, even to pick up your child or to go into the school and you use the exemption found under “sensitive places”, it will not cover you for the other school property prohibition. So, be wary. It is a trap. It can be a big GOFU.

Evan Nappen 10:32
But let’s say you’re in the Church and you want to have your security team be able to go into the school. Well, there is a way to work around that. So, as you can see, as we just read, if there’s permission, written authorization of the governing officer of the institution, then you would overcome the 39-5.e. prohibition. However, how do you overcome the sensitive place prohibition? Because now we’re talking not just being in the parking lot, but we’re talking about actually being in the school itself, within the house of worship. Well, for that, we go to the sensitive place law, which you’ll find under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.6 and go there to subsection e. And what it says is, nothing in this act shall be construed to prohibit the holder of a valid and lawfully issued permit, in other words, a carry permit, who is lawfully authorized to provide security at a place enumerated in those sensitive places from carrying a firearm, whether openly or concealed, provided that the authorization is set forth in writing, and only to the extent permitted by the entity responsible for security at the place in question.

Evan Nappen 12:03
So, if you get written authorization covering you for the first prohibition that we talked with and then if you get that written authorization that can cover you here, there’s one added thing you have to do. You have to be able to be lawfully authorized to provide security. So, who’s lawfully authorized to provide
Page – 3 – of 8
security in New Jersey? Those that have a SORA (Security Officer Registration Act) card. (https://nj.gov/njsp/private-detective/sora-help.shtml) If you’re on the church or synagogue or mosque House of Worship security team and you want to fully have the exemptions apply to you, you’re going to need to have SORA card and your carry permit. You can then be exempted with the written authorization, as we’ve discussed, and it will give you the ability to have the full access to those grounds without being in violation of either school or other sensitive place prohibitions. So, thanks for a great question, Chuck.

Evan Nappen 13:15
I also have a letter here, and this is from Jay. Jay says, I listen to your blogs regularly. I want to really thank you for the service you provided guarding our constitutional rights. I had two questions, but he actually has three questions. So, I don’t know, but we’ll do all three. Number One – are cross shoulder straps allowed as a holster for concealed carry in New Jersey? So, I’m assuming what you mean by cross shoulder straps, meaning a shoulder holster. You know, the rig that you carry essentially under your arm, and it has the straps that you put both your arms through. Some are made even just for a one arm through where you have it. And the answer to that would be yes, as long as the holster itself stays concealed and qualifies as a holster that covers the trigger and the body of the firearm and secures it properly. As long as the holster part does that and you have it concealed, then having it in a shoulder holster, we’ll just generally use that term, would be fine. It’s the holster itself that has to meet the criteria to be a legal holster. And then, of course, you have to keep it concealed. So, keep that jacket on over that shoulder holster.

Evan Nappen 14:38
Two, it says private residences in New Jersey with no sign saying firearms prohibited, and the answer, as I discussed previously, is no. If it’s a private residence with no sign, you’re going to have to get, you know, consent verbally, or else you’re not allowed even if you’re invited into the private residence. The prohibition on private property that’s not open to the public is still in effect. And then the other question is, are trigger locks considered locks? What about a trigger lock in a gun safe? Well, trigger locks are locks. But the question really is, if your gun has a trigger lock, is that the same as having it in a locked container? No, because there the container itself has to be locked. So, if you’re using a trigger lock, yeah, that can provide that your gun is locked. But what is often found in these exemptions is the need not just to have it locked, but to have it in a locked container. That’s what’s going to give you the maximum coverage, and that’s the point. So, if you want to have a trigger lock and have it in a locked container, feel free. If you want to have it locked in your safe, okay, you can have a trigger lock on the gun in your safe. But the trigger lock itself, generally speaking, is not going to get you the exemptive coverage that you’re most likely looking for.

Evan Nappen 16:11
Now, here’s something that caught my attention that I found to be very interesting. This was an article in AmmoLand, and I really like it because it actually gave me an argument about something that has been bothering me and that we’ve discussed before. This is an article called “Why Gun Grabbers Say ‘Gun Violence’ Instead of Addressing Real Problems” by Dan Wos. (https://www.ammoland.com/2025/09/why-gun-grabbers-say-gun-violence-instead-of-addressing-real- problems/) Now this is an excellent point, and I want you all to let this sink in. You know, we’ve talked
Page – 4 – of 8
about the propaganda use of the term “gun violence” and how it’s really “criminal violence” and how it’s a propaganda term. But what I really, really, like about this article is it took it to another level, which really kind of gave me a bit of an epiphany here. So, I really want to thank Dan for pointing this out.

Evan Nappen 17:09
Let me read a quote here from this article. “To vilify guns, the political left has made it a point to attach human traits to firearms, for the purpose of animating them. They do this as often as possible. They understand that when a human element is involved, causality and intention can be used for emotional leverage. In other words, by attaching the word ‘violence’ to the word ‘gun’ and attaching the word ‘assault’ to the word ‘rifle’, the anti-gunner can peddle the notion that the firearm has behavioral tendencies.” Brilliant, brilliant. That’s exactly it. In other words, what the antis are doing is anthropomorphic. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropomorphic) They are acting and creating anthropomorphic qualities to a gun. So, when we’re talking about something being anthropomorphic, we’re talking about giving something human characteristics or traits that it wouldn’t have.

Evan Nappen 18:25
Children love anthropomorphic cartoons, talking bears, talking rabbits, etc. Bears and rabbits don’t talk, but if you give them human qualities, they do. That is a form of anthropomorphic trait, giving right there. Giving it the human element. So, by doing that to the term “violence” and taking that term “violence” and attaching it to a “gun”, guns are not violent. People are violent. Violence is a human attribute, not a gun attribute. Guns don’t go around acting violent. People do. So, this is a brilliant part. The same with so-called “assault firearms” in New Jersey. Firearms don’t assault anyone. People assault. So, this is the trick. This is the propaganda tactic. This is a technique used by the Second Amendment oppressors to use the anthropomorphic term. And when they do, folks, call them out on it. I know from now on I will. Because once you can identify the propaganda technique, once you can call them out on it, you cut them off at the knees. Tell them – do not add human characteristics to an inanimate object. That is false and a lie, and you’re treating us as children by trying to make bears talk. That’s not how it works. Excellent point. Keep it in mind when dealing with those propaganda terms put out by the Second Amendment oppressors.

Evan Nappen 20:19
And now let me mention our good friends at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is range in Lakewood, where Teddy and I both shoot. An indoor range, and a great place. We love WeShoot. And this week WeShoot has some really great specials. They’re offering the SIG Sauer P320 Spectre Comp Blackout. I’ve got to tell you, folks. This is one really cool looking gun. You’ve got to see what this Spectre Comp Blackout looks like. It’s really hot. I’m digging it. Definitely. And they have it at WeShoot. And it is a showstopper. It has an integrated compensator, laser-engraved grip, and full blackout finish. It’s built for performance and style. They also have a beautiful Smith & Wesson 640, that’s the J-frame, but it’s in .357 mag. It’s stainless. It is simplicity. It is one of my favorite pocket rockets, and this one is really beautiful. It has engraving and a gorgeous grip. Check out that Smith 640 that WeShoot has. They’re also offering a Riley Defense RAK47. It’s an American-made AK with forged trunnions, wood furniture, and that iconic 7.62 by 39 punch. And it is New Jersey compliant. Of course, it is. You can have a New Jersey compliant AK, because that’s the only guns that WeShoot would ever sell. They are completely
Page – 5 – of 8
compliant under New Jersey law. So, check out those guns at WeShoot. You can go there, and you can get some great range time in. Or get some awesome training. It is the place where I got my certification, and Teddy got his certification. You can get your certification. Check out WeShoot, conveniently located right off the Parkway. It is really a fantastic range, and I know you’ll love it. Check out their website at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 22:26
I also want to mention our great state association. Like I said, they’re battling right now in that case on the Carry Killer challenge. They are also challenging the so-called assault firearm law. That is a term actually in New Jersey law, believe it or not. A term in New Jersey law that has given human characteristics to a gun. It’s in our statutes, making talking bears as a prohibition. That’s right, that’s what New Jersey’s done. They’ve done it as well, when you think about it, with ghost guns. Whoo. Well, what’s a ghost? A ghost is a human spirit. Let’s give it human spirit ghost characteristics like Casper. Back to childhood cartooning to grab that emotional response. Once you see the light on this, it’s clear how the antis play this game. But our state Association is on it. They are absolutely on it. We are fighting the good fight, and we’re making progress. So, you need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure that you are go to anjrpc.org. Go to anjrpc.org. Join today and be a member.

Evan Nappen 24:01
And let me mention, make sure I do, my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Make sure you get and have my book. It’ll help you navigate through the treacherous waters of New Jersey gun laws. They constantly lay out potential GOFUs and other traps to disenfranchise us of our gun rights and to continue the movement of gun rights oppression. Don’t fall for it. Protect yourself. Get a copy of my book. Just go to EvanNappen.com and order your copy today. You’ll be glad you did. It’s over 120 topics, all Question and Answer. Made easy to understand. That’s how I wrote it. It’s a labor of love, folks. Get your copy today. Teddy, what do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 24:52
Well, as we know, Press Checks are always free. And anytime you hear where the anti-gunners try to run cover, and they say, we don’t want to take your guns where. No, that’s not what we want to do. That’s not what we want. It’s always common sense. They always sell it with common sense. Well, if you ever want to look towards the future, if the Left were ever left with unvetted power, where they had, you know, the Supreme Court, they had the house, they had the presidency. What would that look like? Look to Canada. They have just kicked off and are actually disarmament. Going through. They finally did it. The Mad Men. They established the program where they’re tackling assault style firearms, even though the list is about over 1500 types of guns. So, practically anything that falls under assault type firearms, they are now going through and doing mandatory. I love, I love the term. They always do. It’s a voluntary program. Although if you do not participate, you will be unable to seek compensation, and you will have to dispose of the prohibited firearm by exporting, deactivating or turning them into police without compensation. But it’s voluntary. It’s just quite disgusting. And this is right off of the Canadian website of the public safety aspect of their, which, you know, it’s Canada state run. (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2025/09/government-of-canada-moves-forward- with-the-assault-style-firearms-compensation-program-for-individual-firearms-owners.html) From the
Page – 6 – of 8
BC Firearms Academy in Canada, they list off the wonderful price ranges they offer for firearms if you turn it in.

Evan Nappen 26:48
I’m sure it’s quite generous, huh?

Teddy Nappen 26:50
Oh, absolutely. So, if you have a tactical style .22 rifle, it’s about $150 to $300. Pistol, caliber carbines, tactical rim fire, or certain shotguns, that is $400 to $800. For a high range being AR-15 variants, Ruger Mini 14s, or other military-style semi automatics, it’s about 1000 to 1052. And in the special cases of Alexander Arms off, burn off, burnt.

Evan Nappen 27:34
Yeah, well, Alexander Arms is a manufacturer, yes.

Teddy Nappen 27:39
I don’t know this particular gun that they’re referencing. They said, you must call the program and we’ll determine compensation. But what they have from their ranges, it goes up to $1,520 max.

Evan Nappen 27:54
Wait, remember, that’s in Canadian dollars.

Teddy Nappen 27:56
I know. Monopoly money, so it is less.

Evan Nappen 27:58
Oh, yeah. Well, it is not surprising. It’s really a shame, and they keep running these gun boondoggles. Like their registration scheme they spent billions on and then trashed it. And I bet you a number of the Provinces are not going to stand for it, the conservative provinces that actually want to even try to have Canadians have their so-called rights. But man, one thing to be thankful for is that we’re not there yet. Although they’re trying to do it in America as well. Believe me, if the gun rights oppressionists had their way, they would try to do it here. And I’m sure they’ll try to point to Canada, as they do Australia, for the same and the formerly Great Britain. You know, this is what they do. So, we’ve got to keep an eye on what they do around the world. But, of course, we’re here, and the one thing is, what we’re blessed with, which none of these other countries have, is an actual Second Amendment right, which is a guarantee of our right to keep and bear arms.

Evan Nappen 29:19
Hey, let me tell you about the GOFU. This week’s GOFU is from a case that’s actually in the news. This is right out of nj.com. Bergen County SWAT team called to New Jersey hospital after man pulls out handgun. (https://www.nj.com/bergen/2025/10/swat-team-called-to-nj-hospital-after-man-pulls-out- handgun.html) Well, what happened here? The hospital in Bergen County was placed on lockdown after a man entered the intake area with a handgun. And guess what he did? He took out his gun. “Had removed a handgun from his person and slammed it on a table.” Slammed it, folks. Yeah, right. He
Page – 7 – of 8
slammed it. The hospital was placed on a divert status and a shelter-in-place order was implemented. Well silver, yeah. So, what? Bergen Swat. Yeah, Bergen SWAT and every and guess what? This man removed his nine millimeter from his holster during intake prior to a physical exam. And it says right in the article, “Officers later determined the man had a carry permit, but he failed to produce proof.” He had one, but he’s charged under New Jersey sensitive locations.

Evan Nappen 30:40
Okay, look, folks. Medical facilities are a sensitive location. You can’t bring your gun there. So, he brought his gun there, and then he took it out. I guess even we could speculate that he thought maybe it would be best just to remove it so that it wouldn’t be a problem. But that’s not what you do. And then, of course, when police come, you’re required to show your permit, and if you don’t have your permit on you, that itself is an offense in New Jersey. So, now he’s charged with sensitive place violation, a third degree. He’s looking at up to five years in State Prison, and he’s charged with the failure to have his permit on him, which is disorderly person defense. He’s looking at up to six months in county jail. So, it’s a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 31:31
So, what do you do if you end up where you realize you’re in a sensitive place and you shouldn’t have your gun? Make an excuse and get out. Get out and secure it properly. Don’t go pulling it out in the sensitive place. Talk about a total GOFU. Now all you’ve done is create enormous problems for yourself, and it is a classic GOFU. Don’t think there’s going to be anybody being reasonable here. You need to know the sensitive places. You have to be completely conscious about where the sensitive places are. And if you find yourself that you happen to be in one, take the remedial action. Get out and lock it in your car. Every one of your cars, if you have a gun and you carry the carry, better have a lock box in it. You better have one. It’s part of your gear, your permanent travel gear in your vehicle, so that you can secure your gun properly under sensitive place. If you end up going to a restaurant and you see they’re serving alcohol there, whoops. Get back to your car and secure it. And keep your mouth shut. You have a Fifth Amendment right against self- incrimination. So, don’t be stupid. And that’s what GOFUs are, unfortunately. Based a lot on ignorance.

Evan Nappen 33:05
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 33:17
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page – 8 – of 8

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E258_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 257-“86” the 4473Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 257 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, gun laws, opposition research, non-binary, 4473 form, background check, gun

violence, mental illness, gun rights, ATF, National Shooting Sports Foundation, straw purchases, gun

control, sensitive places, New Jersey gun law.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, as many of you know, we do what is called oppo research, opposition

research. We not only review continuously, just probably a dozen every day of various aggregate news

sites and services related to firearms, both pro-Second Amendment rights, and, of course, those that

are oppressors of our Second Amendment rights. And one of the key oppressors is Bloomturd’s

organization “Everytown” and their mouthpiece, “The Trace”. However, The Trace, and I have to say

often to their credit, does have stories that, although are completely slanted to supporting gun rights

oppression, often reveal very important things that are not revealed on the pro-gun rights sites.

Evan Nappen 01:25

It is very interesting, and that is what I want to talk about today, because the trace had a very important

story. Of course, it shows the dichotomy on the left, and it demonstrates, of course, left hypocrisy and

gun rights oppressor hypocrisy. But nonetheless, this is an article from The Trace by Will Van Sant, and

the title is, “Buying a Gun Is About to Get More Complicated for Nonbinary People”.

(https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/gun-background-check-nonbinary-trump-atf/) Now, we’ve discussed

this very sensitive and complicated issue of trans, what the oppressors like to call gun violence. So,

how about trans gun violence? You want to add that to it? No, no. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah,

right. Because it has nothing to do with either of those two prefaces? It has to do with criminal violence,

doesn’t it? But once they’ve stepped into this slippery slope and we start putting things into identifiable

groups and using propaganda terms like gun violence, well this is what happens.

Evan Nappen 02:40

And so, of course, now the left is getting their ox gored, yeah, which essentially is their entire trans

agenda. And whether you are in favor of that agenda or against that agenda, it doesn’t matter in terms

Page – 1 – of 12of this discussion. Because what we see is what is seriously the bigger picture, and that is our Second

Amendment rights. And although the case can be made that there’s greater mental illness amongst

trans, as I’ve talked about from the official studies through these Government agencies that look at it,

that there is that factor, it still doesn’t mean that, as a group, anybody should end up prohibited. And of

course, my personal Second Amendment belief is that nobody should be prohibited. As a matter of fact,

if you want to get right down to it, I don’t think we should have any gun laws. That’s right. None. Other

than for unlawful use. That’s right. Put it back the way it was meant to be under the Second

Amendment. That’s it. Use a gun to commit a crime, to do something wrong, what we call a malum in

se offense, something evil within itself. Then that is the crime. Anything else is a mallum prohibitum.

Evan Nappen 04:05

Now I get it. I get it. Because we don’t live in that utopia of being able to go back to actual pure

freedom, God forbid. So, we’re in this situation where there is an attempt to in our society that loves to

sue all the time. We need to protect gun dealers. So, oddly and interestingly, the National Instant Check

System (NICS) and essentially even the gun form itself. And, of course, PLCAA (Protection of Lawful

Commerce in Arms Act). These are all designed to protect gun dealers. Now, on one hand, you should

say, why should guns even be required to be licensed to be sold by dealers? I mean, that wasn’t

something that was originally required. There were no gun dealers at the time of the Second

Amendment that needed a license. Or at the time of the Civil War that needed a license. But we now

have this reality that we deal with, and unfortunately, it’s grown to where, in effect, weaponization by

either political party can take place.

Evan Nappen 05:15

In reality, the 4473, which is the federal form that you fill out to buy a gun. There is no need for it at all.

Okay? We should 86 the 4473 and let me tell you why. We have this so-called background check when

you buy a gun from a dealer. Why do you have to fill out any form at all? Why can’t you just show your

Government-approved identification, which is normally a driver’s license, and then run the NICS check.

You’re either approved or denied. Why do we have to fill out a form? Why do we have to fill out a form

with all this information, answering all these questions? Because it is a trap. It is a trap designed to

catch people who apparently and often inadvertently may give a wrong answer, because it’s so

complicated. Do you know whether your juvenile mental health commitment from 20 years ago is now

being viewed as an involuntary commitment or not? Did you realize whether or not your juvenile

delinquency conviction is somehow a disqualifier? Did you realize that the old misdemeanor offense

from years ago happened to be qualified as domestic violence, so you’re actually a prohibited person? I

mean, we can go on and on. And what happens is that individuals get caught in this mess when we

supposedly have a system that does the check.

Evan Nappen 06:54

If you want to identify the buyer, which even that, I would say, shouldn’t even be needed. Shouldn’t

even be necessary to happen. But okay. If the idea is for dealers to track who is sold a gun and who’s

not, if you pass the Government check and you’ve identified that you’re you, that should be all it takes.

But that’s not the reality, is it? It’s not the reality at all. Instead, we have this form. This form is loaded

with not only traps, but excess information that is frankly offensive in many ways. All right. So, let’s take

a look at, particularly at the moment, the issue regarding how will nonbinary people now have, as The

Page – 2 – of 12Trace calls, a complication, which is actually going to end up being a denial of nonbinary people, in

many instances, getting a firearm. How will that happen? Well, let me explain. You see on the form, on

the 4473, there, is a question that asks about your sex, and it originally was male or female, and that

was it. It was based on the science, imagine that. You’re either a man or a woman. Now I know we get

into the whole debate as to whether that’s righteous or not, and we don’t even have to go there.

Evan Nappen 08:24

Because what further happened is that about 13 states, possibly even more, have enacted for driver’s

licenses to say and have a choice of nonbinary. And what we were finding is that under the old form

4473, where you had to be male or female, individuals who had a binary on their driver’s license were

denied. They were denied a gun purchase because the form required you to be either male or female,

and your ID did not reveal whether you’re male or female. So, anyone with a nonbinary license

indication, they were automatically denied their Second Amendment rights because the form did not

include nonbinary. Now let me tell you something you may not realize. The addition of nonbinary to the

4473 did not actually necessarily happen because the gun rights oppressors said, hey, wait a minute.

We have to make sure that nonbinaries can still buy a gun. No, no. It was actually the National

Shooting Sports Foundation, Larry Keane specifically, according to this article, in 2018 and 2019 that

requested, okay, that actually asked for. And it says here that Keane coordinated with ATF under the

National Shooting Sports Foundation Annual Vegas Trade Show, which we call, of course, what you

know of as the Shot Show, made inquiries and they wanted to address it. And guess what? It was

added to the form. It was added to the form so that now nonbinary could, in fact, purchase firearms.

Evan Nappen 10:44

Well, as you may recall, President Trump issued an Executive Order that throughout the Federal

Government, references to anything about nonbinary would be eliminated. From the military to

Government Employment, across the board. You’re either male or female, and the gun form is now

going to not be any exception to that. Because ATF, according to this article, according to their inside

folks at ATF, you know they have the gun rights oppressor moles at ATF, and what is happening is

they’re going to remove nonbinary from the 4473. Therefore, we’re going to go back to the old days

prior to that 2018-2019 issue. So, people are going to get denied their ability to buy a firearm again

from dealers unless their driver’s license or their Government photo ID identifies as male or female. So,

this appears to be happening.

Evan Nappen 12:05

And so, this is really fascinating. Because now essentially what is of major concern on the Left, you

know, the same folks politically behind oppressing our gun rights in The Trace, right? This is a very

important issue. Look through the whole Biden administration, and you see this is now going to be a

problem. Yet, it was the pro-Second Amendment rights folks that helped to get the initial change. So,

this creates a really interesting political dynamic. And by the way, there is a group. I don’t know if you

even realize this group exists, but it’s called the Liberal Gun Club. They’re a Left-leaning gun rights

group, and their spokesman of the Liberal Gun Club is Lara Smith. According to The Trace, in an

interview, she said, I don’t mean to be flippant as it sounds, but we knew, we knew they were going to

try this. Now it is not just trans people, it’s people on the Left that they’re going to try and disarm or

political dissidents generally. So, she’s raising this issue, which, interestingly, The Trace does say all of

Page – 3 – of 12the country’s major gun rights organizations, including the National Rifle Association, the Second

Amendment Foundation and Gun Owners of America. And they have to add in, of course, which sees

its mission is grounded in the Christian Bible. How about they see their mission as grounded in the

Constitution? Like you, folks, at The Trace should, should see it, but whatever. Condemned the

reported DOJ discussions. ” I was pleasantly surprised about how quickly these big gun groups came

out and said, ‘No, you can’t do this'”. But why is that? Because, of course, gun rights supporters support

gun rights, and we’re not going to be hypocrites about it, right? But here’s the bigger issue. The bigger

issue is that the 4473, in its entirety, needs to go. It needs to go. Why, for example, are you asked on

the 4473 are you Hispanic or not? You have to either admit to your Hispanic heritage or deny Hispanic

heritage. What does that have to do with anything? It has nothing. The reason for it.

Teddy Nappen 14:42

Wasn’t that to combine with the whole Fast and Furious Operation?

Evan Nappen 14:47

Correct! This was part of the anti-gun setup to try to make the so-called Iron Pipeline of guns going to

Mexico until it blew up in their face with Fast and Furious where they actually supplied guns to cartels

that ended up killing the Agent Kerry and causing havoc by guns supplied by our own Government

through that entire fiasco. So, that killed their political approach to trying to ban firearms, particularly

semi-automatics, because then they required rifle reporting if you buy more than one rifle, but only

along the border states. And this was all part of this push. You would think that pro-Hispanic groups

would say, wait a minute, you shouldn’t be discriminating about Hispanic heritage. But it doesn’t stop

there. Why are you asked about race at all? Look, if you’re going to tell me that this is to identify who

you are, that’s what the ID does. Your driver’s license or photographic Government ID identifies you.

You don’t need any of that identification information at all. Not whether you’re male, not whether your

female, not with your nonbinary, not whether you’re Hispanic, not whether you’re an, you know, Eskimo.

None of that. It doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. If they just want to identify the person who’s acquiring the

firearm for purposes of their recordkeeping in the acquisition/ disposition books, the driver’s license

does it. You don’t need any form for that. And all those questions? Well, look, its real simple, folks, do

we have NICS? Do we have a NICS instant check or not? Why do we go beyond that? There’s no

reason for it. You should just give your license. It identifies you, if we’re even going to accept that. But

okay. If that’s how we have to be, you take your license, and they identify you. They run the NICS

check and either you’re approved or denied. That’s it. But that isn’t how it is.

Evan Nappen 16:49

So, interestingly, there’s actually some kind of exciting news in The Trace that’s buried in this article.

But again, I haven’t read this in any gun rights article, gun rights supporter article. In fact, it’s the

oppressors here that reveal this. But it’s actually pretty exciting. Because what it says is that the House

Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement says the subcommittee that the agency, by the way,

through this committee, and this is in the article, is investigating necessary changes to the background

check form. And they’re looking to, get a load of this, folks, amend the form so that applicants don’t

unwittingly misrepresent their criminal histories. Then, in addition, remove the nonbinary option. So,

whether that nonbinary option, you know, gets removed, that becomes a form of gun rights oppression,

doesn’t it? On anybody who’s nonbinary and has a license that says it and then is going to be banned.

Page – 4 – of 12Yet, on the other side of that coin there, or the other side of their action, apparently, will be reform, at

least some reform, to the 4473, which should really be 86ed completely. But at least we’re gaining on

part of that statement. Gaining some freedom and gaining some sanity, a bit of it anyway. On modifying

that form so that people who may unwittingly make a statement aren’t turned into Federal felons, right?

And New Jersey, yeah.

Teddy Nappen 18:47

I will say, just as a question, going back to prior to the NICS. Let’s say, go back in time and you go in to

buy a gun. What were you signing and filling out prior to the NICS form? What was the process? Just

kind of, looking at that line.

Evan Nappen 19:02

Well, prior, there was nothing. You could buy guns through the mail, prior to ’68 and all you do, they’d

say, do you certify that you’re over, you know, whatever the age was 21 or 18, depending on whatever

that company, you know, certifying that you’re of age and certifying that it wasn’t unlawful for you to

have a gun. You simply sign that piece of paper or let them know about it, and you bought your gun. It

was shipped directly to your door, just like you order anything today on Amazon, just like that. And

imagine we regulate firearms that are a Constitutional right to this extreme when you can buy all kinds

of things that arguably are just as dangerous in the wrong hands, maybe even more dangerous in the

wrong hands. And there’s no issue with that. So, how come, when it comes to guns, something that’s a

protected right, we have this. But prior to that, there was no form. There was no requirement for that,

and guns could be sent through the mail.

Evan Nappen 20:18

But after the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. And in ’68 when, of course, the Democrats had control

of the Government, they pushed the ’68 Gun Control Act that ended mail order and created what is to

this day, the Federal Firearms License as we now know it, and the form 4473. This is all, you know. It’s

been modified over the years, but this is where you saw that history of it take place. So, amending that

form to fix injustice in it would be a very good thing if we can’t get rid of it totally. But The Trace further

says the quote because this is in response to questions. This is The Trace, I guess, doing their work.

And I will give them credit for this, because I haven’t seen it in any of our aggregate pro-Second

Amendment rights. It says, “The ATF is in the process of updating and simplifying the Firearms

Transaction Form . . .” that’s the 4473. “to make it more concise and user-friendly for both purchasers

and federally regulated gun dealers. Additionally, reviews and appropriate changes are being made to

ensure consistency with the President’s Executive Order Defending Women From Gender Ideology

Extremism and Restoring Biological Truth to the Federal Government.”

Evan Nappen 21:55

So, whether or not you agree with the second part, and like I said, fundamentally, I don’t.

Fundamentally, of course, all the major gun groups don’t agree with that second part. Yet, you can

understand, I’m sure, President Trump’s position on it. But the first part of it is actually very exciting,

because it needs to be amended. It needs to be made more user-friendly. It needs to have that entire

revision done at a minimum. So, the first part of it is welcome news to those who support our Second

Amendment rights.

Page – 5 – of 12Evan Nappen 22:43

And I would also want to just point out a couple quick things that are very, very exciting. Number one,

the Department of Justice has filed an amicus brief supporting the NRA and the Association of New

Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, by the way, challenge to New Jersey’s ban on assault firearms and large

capacity magazines. (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20250919/doj-files-amicus-brief-supporting-nra-

backed-challenge-to-new-jersey-s-ban-on-assault-firearms-and-large-capacity-magazines) That’s right.

The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is the state affiliate of the NRA, that legal

challenge brought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs in conjunction with the NRA

and with other pro-gun forces in New Jersey. By the way, the Department of Justice of President Trump

is taking our side. Our side. For once, the Government is on the side of the Constitution of the Second

Amendment. That is great, refreshing news, and very exciting. So, I am thrilled about that.

Evan Nappen 23:56

This is one of the major reasons you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol

Clubs. They are the premier gun rights defenders in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a

member. Not only does that help us in fighting the shenanigans in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist

on the alert for all of their Second Amendment oppression that they try to jam into us in BOHICA (Bend

Over Here It Comes Again) after BOHICA, we are fighting those very vigorously, but they’re also in the

courts. They’re in the courts with that very assault firearm, large capacity magazine challenge,

challenging the Carry Killer bill and these others, these other violations of our rights that New Jersey

has enacted. So, you want to make sure that you’re a member of our great Association, the Association

of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. ANJRPC.org.

Evan Nappen 25:10

Let me tell you some exciting news about our friends at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is an indoor range in

Lakewood, New Jersey, conveniently located off the Parkway. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot and

get our training. We love WeShoot. WeShoot has some exciting news. We shoot is now BUL Armory’s,

BUL Armory’s, first and only New Jersey dealer. It’s very exciting. I don’t know if you have ever seen

BUL Armory products. They are Premier. They are fantastic. If you’ve ever, if you are into the 2011

format, you know, similar to the staccato. And, of course, they’re not calling it 2011 but most you know

this as a 2011 where you have the higher capacity, nine millimeter, but utilizing a 1911 setup on the

slide. These guns are fantastic, and they are also more reasonable than staccatos. Yet, they are

excellent guns. So, I’m a big fan of any anything that shoots. I’m not saying, you know, I’m not putting

down staccato. I own a couple, and I love them. But BUL Armory is really in a magnificent price

competition, and they are definitely a competitor. They are doing it really, really spectacularly. And if

you’ve never shot a BUL Armory firearm, you need to. They also have a line of really cool knives. And,

of course, I’m into knives, too. As you know, I have to strictly limit myself. It has to shoot or cut for me to

like it. And therefore, their blades are very cool. They even have fixed blades in which the handle

utilizes a 1911 grip, very cool. You can check out their blades and their firearms. WeShoot is the first

and only exclusive New Jersey dealer. So, get down to WeShoot, and check out the BUL Armory

products. You will be amazed at how top of the line they are. They are really cool, really great.

Evan Nappen 27:31

Page – 6 – of 12By the way, WeShoot also has plenty of other firearms to fit whatever your needs are. They have the

Ruger Precision Rimfire, which is your ultimate .22 trainer with an adjustable stock and a free folding

handguard. And of course, it is completely New Jersey compliant. So, it is a great gun. They are also

have the Springfield Armory Echelon, which is a modular, striker-fired 9mm, built for duty, defense, and

customization with its Central Operating Group chassis system. In other words, it has a fire control unit

and operates in that manner. So, check out the Springfield. You also have the Tisas 1911DS Carry. It’s

a classic 1911 design, and it has a double -capacity and modern upgrades. And these are just a few of

the really cool great guns at WeShoot. And by the way, Molly is back, and she’s asking, do you want to

see more of her? One of the beautiful WeShoot girls. She’s hitting targets and turning heads, and we’re

all here and for it. So, there you go. Check out WeShoot’s website for beautiful pictures of guns and

WeShoot girls. As a matter of fact, why don’t you go down to WeShoot and personally get acquainted

with both. So check it out at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is there to help you get the training you need to

get your licensing and skills, and you will find that it is a place where you are treated like family.

Everyone that goes there loves it, and I know you will, too. Check out weshootusa.com.

weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 29:21

Let me also mention my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. You

need to have a copy of it. If you don’t, you are sorely losing out on the information that can save your

rights and keep you out of jail. The book is over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer

format. Once you get the book, scan the front cover, and get on my free and private subscriber base.

You will get all the alerts for law changes. You’ll be able to immediately download the 2025

Comprehensive Update, which, by the way, has a standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. It is the

book that is a must have for every gun owner in New Jersey. Go to EvanNappen.com,

EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book right there. Click it and you’ll have your copy in days.

Teddy, what do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 30:21

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free, and we always like to go back to looking at the

various anti-gun agendas. More and more, I find that looking at their various arguments and things they

push for. It’s important to go back to history and to see what was the spark, what led to the creation of

their current talking points. So, we go back to everyone’s favorite anti-gun outlet, The Trace. And I love

this media article. It just caught my eye, and I thought, okay, yeah, this is the ultimate. This is how

they’re going to stop it. The mass shooters are going to stop the gun violence in the city of Philadelphia.

Do you know what’s going to stop it, Dad?

Evan Nappen 31:14

Gun violence, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 31:16

Yeah, gun violence. Do you know what’s their argument? Philly’s latest shooting prevention law is

literally a sign in a window. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/philly-straw-purchasing-prevention/)

Evan Nappen 31:28

Page – 7 – of 12Oh, signs. They work so well. Like “Gun Free School Zones” and “No Guns Allowed Here”. Oh, every

criminal will obey a sign. I mean, signs are the most powerful tool to stop crime ever invented by man.

Teddy Nappen 31:45

Correct. And this sign is required in every single gun shop in Philadelphia to discourage straw purchase

sales of firearms.

Evan Nappen 31:55

Oh, straw. Is that like from the Wizard of Oz? You know the one of the characters, the straw, uh,

Scarecrow, who’s a straw man, and he’s, you know, he’s a straw man. If it was, if a scarecrow wants to

buy a gun, then straw man purchases get prohibited, right? Isn’t that how that works?

Teddy Nappen 32:12

Well, the problem is, the problem is, the Scarecrow went down to the bad area of Philadelphia. When

they found him, he went, oh, my head’s over there, and my body’s over here! Anyways.

Evan Nappen 32:24

Right.

Teddy Nappen 32:25

Just leaning off of that, it’s this whole pushed agenda where they’re requiring every single gun shop in

Philadelphia to have that sign to crack down on straw purchase sales of firearms. And it got me

thinking, who did this? What was the start? Who originally got this whole talking point of straw

purchases? Because we’ve brought up about the famous case.

Evan Nappen 32:53

It was Dorothy. Dorothy was pissed at the Scarecrow for not having a brain.

Teddy Nappen 33:01

Yep, it was Dorothy. Anyways, going through, I actually pulled it up on the ATF website.

(https://www.atf.gov/firearms/dont-lie-other-guy) In 2000, ATF partnered with the National Shooting

Sports Foundation (NSSF) to do.

Evan Nappen 33:17

Wait a minute. The same folks that got the nonbinary added to the form (4473)? That same group?

Teddy Nappen 33:25

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 33:26

Really, isn’t that interesting?

Teddy Nappen 33:28

Page – 8 – of 12Yeah. Look, it’s one of those where seeing this is what they do. In the common sense ideology, we’d

say, okay, yeah, we don’t want, we don’t want criminals to have firearms. But they.

Evan Nappen 33:43

Actually, what it is, is we don’t want dealers to sell a gun to somebody that shouldn’t have it, because

then the dealer gets sued out of existence by gun rights oppressors.

Teddy Nappen 33:57

Yeah, and that would be, and that would be the more common sense. But even when we try to find

common ground, they abuse it. To where, if you go to any of the sites, when I over here, sure enough,

ATF Nashville Field Office teaming up with attorneys to crack down on straw purchases. And if you go

down to Giffords or you go to any other site, what are they arguing? We need to cut down on straw

purchase sales. We need a Universal Background Checks (UBC).

Evan Nappen 34:29

Oh, no, it’s Universal Background Checks, which means Universal Gun Registration. And we all know

where registration leads to? Confiscation and eventually extermination, as every major Holocaust had

that pattern occur.

Evan Nappen 34:48

We want to work with ATF. We want to work with law enforcement. And you know what? At one point,

the ATF did work with dealers, and they were not anywhere near the aggressive oppressors that they

became in the Biden administration. They were never wonderful. I mean, they were never great. But the

last four years of the senile sock puppet was weaponization like we’ve never seen before of the ATF.

And that’s the problem. Because if they get weaponized, there you go. I mean, zero tolerance.

Knocking out dealers. Their mission was to eliminate every gun dealer in the United States. And then

how are you going to buy a gun without any gun dealers? And since it requires the person to be

licensed dealer, and they knock out licensed dealers. This is that slippery slope.

Teddy Nappen 34:48

Correct. So, this is something the National Shooting Sports Foundation should not be partnered up with

the ATF, which, by the way, that is a very bad look to have on your website.

Teddy Nappen 36:00

Well, now you just highlighted Biden. Sure enough, right under that, is don’t lie for the other guy. They

highlight the 2022 Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. (https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/atf-and-

nssf-celebrate-25-years-partnership-dont-lie-other-guy-anti-straw-purchasing-campaign)

Evan Nappen 36:11

Ohhhh. So, it was then used to pass gun control laws, too. Yeah. Isn’t that interesting?

Teddy Nappen 36:20

So, and this is what it comes down to. I’m quite disgusted, like they should go, they’re literally going on

there. If you go on to their website for the National Shooting Sports Foundation Real Solutions, the ATF

Page – 9 – of 12and the firearm industry collab to keep firearm retail stores secure and prosecute individuals who

burglarize firearm realtors and inform the public that it is illegal to purchase a firearm for someone who

cannot pass a background check. (https://nssfrealsolutions.org/programs/dont-lie-for-the-other-guy/)

And then go to the ATF website and they get praise from the NSSF CEO, Joe Bartozzi. If I’m saying

that right. Retailers want nothing more than to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and the don’t lie

initiative has proven that. We look forward to 25 more years of their partnership.

(https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/atf-and-nssf-celebrate-25-years-partnership-dont-lie-other-

guy-anti-straw-purchasing-campaign) Are you kidding me?

Evan Nappen 37:17

Oh, God. So, here’s the thing. I’m gonna let you know a dirty little secret, Teddy. It is something we’ve

seen throughout the fight for our Second Amendment rights. Industry, industry, has backed gun control.

Let me just give you a short little history lesson. The 1934 Machine Gun Act, the NFA that we’re fighting

now with the big, beautiful lawsuit. Okay? That bill. If you go back to the original hearings, you saw Colt

Auto Ordinance in favor of it passing. You saw the N R A supporting the passage of the National

Firearms Act. That’s a fact, folks. As a matter of fact, if you have the book about the Armed Citizen that

NRA put out, where they have all the great columns of the Armed Citizen in that book, there is actually

a copy of the announcement way back in the ’30s that NRA made after the passage of the National

Firearms Act, they were proud of it. They said, look, we’ve solved the gun control problem in the United

States by passing this national law.

Evan Nappen 38:36

Now, look, they were naive. They thought they were doing well. They thought they were doing good

because of the states passing all different kind of patchwork quilt of gun laws. They thought they could

solve it with one federal law and stop the states from enacting their laws. But, of course, that didn’t

work. And as far as federal law was concerned, well, for little over 30 years, there wasn’t much else in

federal gun law. But then ’68 comes along, and the groundwork has been laid with the foundation of the

prior national gun ban, the National Firearms Act that was officially supported by the NRA back then. I

don’t want to judge them by our enlightened understanding of the problems of doing that, you know,

back then. But they did, and it was a naive mistake, for sure. But you had industry even then,

supporting it as well. And then, guess what? The ’68 Gun Control Act. Do you know who was

supporting it? Major gun makers, major gun makers. They wanted to stop military surplus guns from

coming in because that was affecting their manufacturing in the U.S. They didn’t have a problem with

imported handguns having to meet all kinds of other criteria, because that stopped their domestic sales.

Right? You saw the ’68 Gun Control Act backed by industry.

Evan Nappen 40:03

Hell, you saw the Rose Garden ceremony with (President) Clinton and Smith & Wesson there

supporting it, right? That’s what they with their support. Because they thought they had the internal lock

deal secured for their handgun, and this would become the basis for Smith & Wesson and others to

make their money. So, they said, hey, let’s support this. And they’re supporting, again, an agenda that

is gun rights oppression. So, this is something that unfortunately occurs, and even our so-called pro-

gun rights organizations seem to, at times, be short sighted. Or so focused on their business interests

Page – 10 – of 12and their folks that are members that have this business interest that they don’t see how it will be

abused and used and taken advantage of by the gun rights oppressors.

Evan Nappen 41:02

I really appreciate you pointing out us having to deal with the straw man, the straw man. Which is now,

you know, another term of art, if you will. The same way they call it “gun violence” instead of “criminal

violence”. They have something else now to hang their hat on, to sell their gun rights oppression

agenda, and unfortunately, we helped to create that one. So, it’s a shame, but you can understand why.

They had good intentions, right? But as the old saying goes about good intentions, right? It’s that road

to hell. That’s what it’s paved with.

Evan Nappen 41:43

So, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do

we talk about GOFUs? Because it is expensive lessons that gun owners learn, and it costs them their

gun rights, their freedom, lots of money, and if you can learn from that, then you can be protected, and

you can learn from these errors and mistakes. That’s why we talk about GOFUs. And this week’s

GOFU is actually from a letter that I received from Joel. It highlights what is potentially a big GOFU.

Luckily, I don’t think Joel has actually officially become a GOFU, but he highlights something that does

help to create GOFUs. Let me read you his letter. Hi, Evan. I recently serendipitously, heard

serendipitously that the enforceability of New Jersey gun laws changed due to recent court rulings. I

didn’t hear this from the State of NJ directly, even though they have my contact info as part of my carry

permit registration process. Now, you know what? That’s a good point. They know who has a carry

licenses. How come a bulletin isn’t emailed, at a minimum, emailed, if not mailed, from the State to

carry permit holders, laying out the case law and what is and is not a sensitive place? Do we have any

official informational booklet of any type put out by our Government that explains where you can and

cannot carry your handgun so you don’t get in trouble? No, of course not, because they want you to get

into trouble.

Evan Nappen 43:45

The only thing out there that will help you is my book, New Jersey Gun Law, and download the 2025

update that has “sensitive places” explained. Our Government doesn’t send it out, and they know, yet

they know who the people are. And Joel goes on, while ignorance of the law is no excuse, is it in any

way negligent of the State of New Jersey to charge me a fee to register for a permit and provide key

contact information in the process without subsequently using that info to directly inform me of the ways

to use my permit significantly affected by formal legal changes? Now the question is that negligent? No,

you can’t sue them over that, not that I’m aware of. Is it something they should be doing? Hell yeah,

they should be. But again, that’s not part of their agenda. It’s not part of what they want. They don’t

want you to be, actually, a law-abiding gun owner. There’s very minimal done to that effect. And you’re

right, they could easily let us know, but they don’t. Yet they should. Now maybe they’ll come out with

something, because to the State Police credit, they do actually have an FAQ on their website

answering many gun questions. But they don’t have any detailed FAQ on “sensitive places”. At least, if

they did that in furtherance of their mission, which I’m thankful they at least have what they do have, it

would help give guidance. Because law-abiding gun owners want to stay law-abiding gun owners,

right? So, put it out there.

Page – 11 – of 12Evan Nappen 45:19

But as far as saying, because you go into a sensitive place or didn’t know case law changes and you’re

suddenly have a problem, can you then say, oh, well, New Jersey didn’t tell me about it, so I’m not

guilty of it. Now that defense isn’t going to work, unfortunately. Now if New Jersey does put out official

proclamation about what is and isn’t a sensitive place, then you can rely on that. And if a court ends up

saying what they said was wrong, then actually, Joel, ignorance or mistake of law is a defense, a

statutory defense in New Jersey, as long as you’re relying on an official statement by the government.

But their failure to do it does not give an ignorance or mistake of law argument. So, that’s probably one

of the other reasons they don’t want to do it, because they know then people can rely on it and would

ultimately have a defense of ignorance or mistake of law.

Evan Nappen 46:21

Then Joel goes on, especially at a time when court rulings can have substantial implications for legal

gun owners with carry permits. At what point is the failure to directly notify registered permit holders an

intentional act or omission on the part of the State? What are permit holders legal obligations to actively

stay up to date with court rulings on their own? And here’s the deal. There isn’t. There is no implication

for failure to notify. There’s no omission type argument by the Government. Nope. It ain’t going to fly.

Permit holders obligations are to know and to obey the law. It is squarely placed on the gun owner to

know all that. And so the GOFUs are ready to happen. The Government does not help in any way there

on sensitive places to stop it. It is something that should be done across the board. They should be

putting out all kinds of information. Look, if you want to hunt or fish in New Jersey. You can get the

whole compendium right online that breaks down the laws so that you can be a lawful hunter, a lawful

fisherman, a lawful trapper. Where’s that for gun owners? Where’s that for carrying your gun? Where’s

the gun owner Compendium put out by the State of New Jersey for the Second Amendment exercise. It

ain’t there, folks. It ain’t there. And it ain’t there because of their gun rights oppression agenda. I’m

telling you. This is what we deal with every day in the practice of gun law, of individuals who are law-

abiding criminals. That’s right. They’re law-abiding and turned into criminals, and they are officially

victims of New Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 48:39

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 48:50

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 12 – of 12

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E257_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 256-Can Hunting Cost Your 2A Rights?Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 256 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, hunting violations, New Jersey gun laws, license suspension, Fish and Game laws, public health safety welfare, civil penalties, 450 foot rule, prohibited person, domestic violence, red flag laws, gun seizures, Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, suppressors, gun storage.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, we have an issue I want to bring to my listeners’ attention, and it has to do with the impact that hunting can have on your Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 00:42
Is it the long winded debate between rabbit season and duck season?

Evan Nappen 00:46
Exactly, exactly. That’s what it is. And never get into a debate with Daffy Duck if you want to save your gun rights. No, what I’m talking about is the issue in which the Second Amendment oppressors try to use everything and anything they can to disenfranchise us of our gun rights if you end up having hunting violations. Now, not only in New Jersey, if you get two violations, you lose your hunting privileges. They like to call it privileges. Although I really think hunting is a right. Many states have actually enshrined hunting rights as a right in their Constitution. Of course, New Jersey hasn’t done that. But anyway, either way, if you end up with a violation of any of the myriad of ridiculous Fish and Game laws. Some are so petty and insane you can’t even believe they’re on the books. If you get two of those, you’re going to have a mandatory license suspension of hunting and fishing and trapping privileges.

Evan Nappen 02:19
And that’s bad enough, but I think one of the ramifications that people don’t realize is that hunting violations can also cost you your ability to own and possess firearms and be licensed in New Jersey to have firearms. Here’s how it works. Here’s their Gambit. So, one of the disqualifiers in New Jersey
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under the licensing law is called Public Health, Safety, and Welfare based on character and temperament. We call it public health safety welfare. I call it the all inclusive miscellaneous weasel clause, because that’s what it is. It’s a very subjective reason that is often abused by issuing authorities. And even abused to the point, as we’ve discussed, of being racist, in which blacks are denied their gun rights using that provision at a ratio of more than two to one than whites, just on that provision alone. But that’s not where the only area of abuse comes in. They will attempt, they being the Government, will attempt to use hunting violations, and we’ve had any number of cases where they do this against your ability to be licensed under New Jersey law.

Evan Nappen 03:51
So, there are some particular hunting violations that they’re very hot to pull this on, pull this lever, and other ones in the aggregate, or just depending on whether the issuing authority has a hard on for you or whatever. They will attempt to use these things against you, and you want to be aware of that problem. One of the big ones that will really cost you and is a very serious hunting violation, but remember, you can have these minor, stupid ones, too, and they add up. They’ll say you’re irresponsible as a gun owner if you have too many of these, or if your hunting license is suspended because you got hit twice for having the wrong shade of orange that you’re wearing, you know? I mean, that’s one of the offenses. It doesn’t matter, because then they’re going to say, well, you’re not following the hunting laws properly, and therefore you’re not a responsible citizen.

Evan Nappen 05:05
Now, we’ve usually, though the one, the big one, one of the big ones, anyway, is under Chapter 23 which is where the hunting and fishing regs are found. And it’s (N.J.S.) 23:7-3., and it’s causing injury to property of another. “A person who, while hunting, fishing, trapping, or taking wildlife, causes or assists in causing damage or injury to real or personal property of another, including pet animals . . .” You’re liable to a civil penalty not to exceed $2,000 and that’s paid to Fish and Game and goes to their hunters’ and anglers’ fund. So they love, Fish and Game, loves the Fish and Game laws because it puts money in their coffer. So, you know, you think you’re going to work it out some way, but that’s difficult, because they’re there with their hand out, wanting to take your money. And for the first offense, by the way, you have a suspension of all license certificates. That’s for everything. Hunting, fishing, trapping, all of it, to take or possess wildlife for five years. You get a five-year suspension. For a second offense, you’re looking at revocation of all licenses and certificates permanently. So, it would be bad enough that you end up permanently losing your ability to hunt and fish. And, by the way, many states have reciprocity with New Jersey’s hunting and fishing laws. So, if you’re prohibited in New Jersey, you get prohibited in those states as well. So, be aware of that.

Evan Nappen 07:07
But they then will attempt to use these things to somehow show that you’re a danger, that you’re unsafe and that you’re irresponsible. And of course, there’s Fish and Game law that’s very serious if you end up causing personal injury, even purely by accident. But if you cause personal injury, then, of course, they’re going to be all over you for that and claim that you are irresponsible and a danger, etc. So, these are areas where there’s vulnerability. Beyond even your ability to hunt, fish, trap, in New Jersey. Now the they’ll also look at what is the 450 rule. Under the 450 foot rule, New Jersey has a hunting reg that says you cannot be within 450 feet of a building or playground. And if you are within 450 feet of a
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building or playground with a loaded firearm or a knocked arrow, then you’re looking at a problem if it’s an occupied building or a playground, and again. It’s a civil penalty for not less than 100 or more than 200 for the first offense, and not less than 200 or to 500 for a second offense. But if you are convicted of this, not only can you lose your license, but also on that second offense, again, it’s a permanent revocation. Permanent, forever of your hunting and fishing.

Evan Nappen 09:16
And if you end up with a 450 for a loaded firearm, again, the State will claim that you’re a danger, that you’re irresponsible, that you are somebody who should not have a firearm at all. And if you are convicted of any of the multitude of other violations, they can put them together. They’ll look at your entire background while hunting and any of the offenses that you may have had or even just been charged with. Even if you’re not convicted, they’ll still try to use it against you and claim you’re a danger to public health, safety, and welfare. We’ve had those cases. Then as a big, big problem, and I’ve had any number of these cases, is if someone happens to be a prohibited person. Maybe they’re not even aware because they had a prior conviction, you know, decades ago. And they thought it was sealed or expunged but it wasn’t. Or they had a juvenile offense. It’s still a disqualifier. Or if they’ve had any mental health commitment.

Evan Nappen 10:39
Well, if you’re caught possessing, you’re looking at not only a criminal charge of unlawful possession, which can be quite serious, but also a felon in possession, what New Jersey calls “certain persons”. Well, that has a five-year minimum mandatory period of incarceration in State Prison. So, it’s serious stuff, folks. And of course, being a convicted felon isn’t going to help your resume, and it will cause you to be a prohibited person. You lose your gun rights, become a second class citizen and all that. So, beware of that. Make sure that you’re legal to possess firearms. It seems like an obvious thing to say, but you’d be surprised how many folks fall into this trap. And the reason I say it’s a trap is that if you’re a convicted felon, you can go buy a hunting license. There’s no NICS or background check done on a hunting license. Fish and Game will gladly take your money for a hunting license, because they’re all about the money. They’ll take it. You can have a hunting license, but as a convicted felon, you just can’t hunt, particularly with a firearm or possessing other weapons to hunt. So, you can buy the license, but you can’t do the activity. But sometimes there’ll be a misunderstanding where they think, well, they gave me a hunting license, so I should be okay, right? But you’re not okay. Not only can you end up, you can end up doing serious jail time. Go ahead, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 12:26
Out of curiosity, could there be someone just, oh, there’d be, like, an individual that just do, like, going deer hunting bare handed. If that’s ever been, like a case, or not.

Evan Nappen 12:37
I’ve never heard of that, and I don’t know. It’s probably, probably animal cruelty statutes would kick in over deer wrestling or something to that effect. Who knows? I wouldn’t put anything past New Jersey. Now, of course, if you bare handedly go bear hunting, I would have nothing but respect for you, but I don’t think you want to do that. This is a problem, and you need to be aware that you’re out there taking a risk when you’re hunting. Of not just losing, under New Jersey’s draconian and strict hunting laws, but
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you’re risking as well your Second Amendment rights. And of course, they’ve gamed the system to do that very thing. Everything in New Jersey is about somehow disenfranchising us of our gun rights, about taking away people’s rights so they are not able to be gun owners, and about stealing our guns, which is why they have a multitude of ways to do gun seizures. Oh, and by the way, if that occurs where they’re looking to revoke you, they will, all the time, move to forfeit all your guns while they’re at it as well. So they’ll look to take your guns and look to take away your gun rights. This is the reason that New Jersey is a gun owners hell.

Evan Nappen 14:01
And I remember, before I was even a lawyer, NRA ran an article about Lukey Schaefer in the early ’80s. Lukey was a trucker that happened to venture into New Jersey with a cased and unloaded shotgun, and he ended up getting charged on lawful possession. And I always remember that headline on the NRA article, “New Jersey is a gun owners hell.” And you know what, folks, it hasn’t changed. It still is a hell, and they’ve made it even hotter for us. And that’s why it’s very important that you be part of the fight and that you stand up for our rights. As the movement for conservative voices is increasing beyond our wild expectations, due to certain atrocities that have happened, it’s very important that we take this opportunity to fight the oppression that is New Jersey, legally, lawfully, politically. And part of the way of doing that is by joining organizations that unite us in standing up for a rights. One of the key organizations that do that is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Now that organization is an umbrella organization of gun clubs throughout New Jersey, and they also have individual memberships.

Evan Nappen 15:44
By being a part of the Association, you’re going to get email alerts where you can push a few buttons and let your voice be heard to the legislature. You’re going to be advised about fights ongoing in the courts, challenging the Carry Killer bill, the assault firearm ban and the large capacity magazine ban. All those issues where they further attempted to oppress us and keep us as victims of New Jersey gun law. It’s your state Association that is critical in this fight. Now there are other great gun clubs and gun organizations around New Jersey. This isn’t saying that this is the only one you should belong to. Every pro-group that you believe in, no question, but you have to belong to the Association if you care about what’s going on in New Jersey. The Association has full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they are really doing a great job in an extraordinarily difficult environment. So, go to anjrpc.org and make sure you join. And have your friends and family join, too, because there’s power in numbers. It’s very important that you do that. You may think, oh, I’m just one person, but you can make a difference.

Evan Nappen 17:14
And as our voices are heard and responses are sent in, the legislators do consider just how much outrage and political motivation there is to oppose them and to fight them. So, they take it seriously, and we make a big showing because of the alerts that have been sent out by the Association. It really does make a difference, and we’ve seen it. Also, the Association has become a good negotiator of our rights. We’ve been able to achieve things without legislative necessity. We’ve been able to work things out with the Attorney General, such as the “no serial number” gun ban that literally banned millions of guns in New Jersey. And through efforts of the Association and my colleague and good friend, Dan Schmutter and myself and Scott Bach, who’s the Executive Director, we were able to get the Attorney
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General to make clear that it was strictly limited to so-called, as readily understood, ghost guns only, and not all the pre ’68 guns with no serial number. Because that was legal prior to ’68 and that it didn’t apply to imported guns because they didn’t have Federal Manufacturing registrations in New Jersey. And antiques and other guns and so forth. So, it was a very important thing, literally saving millions that was done through your Association.

Evan Nappen 19:00
We’ve also been able to get the criteria changed via the Attorney General for carry permits. We went from the John Wick carry requirement to CCARE, which is a reasonable course and test of your core competency, and so that individuals would qualify to get their carry permit. Again, an accomplishment by your state Association. So, those are just a few examples. But through the years, if you wonder about, you know, can you stop while you’re transporting your firearm from, say, your home to the range. Can you stop for some food? Can you stop to go to the bathroom? Can you stop to get gas? Can you stop to pick up a friend? The answer to those questions is yes, you can, as long as it’s reasonable and along the way. And why is the answer yes? Because of an Attorney General opinion that we worked out through the Association. These are all things where direct, absolute benefits can be seen by the efforts of ANJRPC. So, make sure you join and belong.

Evan Nappen 20:22
And the other important thing to do is belong to a gun club or organization. Now we are good friends with WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. It’s fantastic range, just great people. That’s where Teddy and I shoot, and we love WeShoot. They have great courses, and they have great trainers. They are offering, all the time, amazing courses in firearms and in self-defense and in even other subjects, including ham radio operation, should the stuff ever hit the fan, and you want to be able to communicate. So, they really have some great stuff. And I would highly recommend going to WeShoot right there in Lakewood, conveniently off the Parkway. You can check out their website, of course, at weshootusa.com. WeShoot also runs sales, and they have special guns they get in. They happen to be highlighting this week the Colt 1911 Competition, which is a race-ready .45ACP, with Novak sights and match-grade performance, which is built for precision and podiums. They’re also talking about the Marlin 1895 Trapper, a compact, fast-handling, chambered in .45-70 government. This lever action legend is back with Ruger quality and a threaded barrel for your suppressor setups.

Evan Nappen 22:08
And what’s really nice. That model Marlin 1895 in .45-70 is the gun that both Teddy and I have bear hunted with. In fact, it was the Marlin 1895 guide gun that literally saved my life while bear hunting, when I was charged by a bear in the blind. Yeah, I was on a ground blind, my friends, because I don’t care too much for the blinds that are high up in the sky. I find that I rarely fall off a ground blind, okay? But those of you that hunt elevated, I get it. It’s fine, but I prefer a ground blind. So, I’m in this ground blind, and this bear literally charged the blind where I was. I had to shoot him point blank from the hip, virtually touching his body. And I just fired with a get the f away from me shot that luckily sent him sprawling. And it was a .45-70 that did the job and put him down immediately. So, I have a great love for my Marlin 1895 guide gun. Plus it is the gun they used in a Jurassic Park as protection against dinosaurs. So, if you ever think that you want to keep dinosaurs away, well, look how effective the .45- 70 is because I have yet to encounter a dinosaur while having my .45-70 with me. So, it must work
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really well. But I know it works perfectly on charging bears. I can personally vouch for that. And WeShoot has got the Trapper, which is a handy, handy carbine, set up in that great round. And, of course, my favorite ammo is the Garrett load. Garrett makes a super hard cast .45-70 that are like little freight trains. I think they’ve even taken the Big Five in Africa with that round. And man, was I glad I had that round and that gun.

Evan Nappen 24:40
WeShoot is also offering a Beretta 92XI SAO Tactical, which is a modern twist on a classic M9 with a single action only, suppressor-height, sights and optics-ready versatility. Now, of course, suppressors, unfortunately, are not legal yet in New Jersey, but plainly, they need to be, because it’s hearing protection, and they’re a great idea. I mean, you wouldn’t want to ride around in our cars without mufflers, right? And look, people rob banks in cars, and if you have a muffler, it’s less likely for them to be hurt. I mean, it’s a stupid logic. Like, are you kidding me? We need mufflers on cars, so give me a break, and you still hear cars even with mufflers. Well, you still hear guns even with silencers. It’s just that it’s not ear shattering, ear splitting noise. It’s noise that you can actually hunt without hearing protection. So, you can hear the game, and you can hear other hunters. And in a home-defense situation, it’s ideal. It’s not going to blow your ears out in your house, should you have to fire. It also helps control recoil. And if you’re at the range in training, you can listen to commands very easily. I mean, they’re a great accessory to firearms. New Jersey needs to get its act together on that one.

Evan Nappen 26:08
And of course, we filed, through the Association and others have filed a legal challenge to the constitutionality of New Jersey’s ban on so-called silencers, which we call really suppressors, but the law calls silencers. It is a very good thing, and plus, we have federal challenge in the big, beautiful lawsuit, challenging the NFA regulations that have put silencers in the same category as machine guns since the 1930s. So, there’s a big movement. And most states, not including New Jersey, of course, have legalized silencers for hunting because they see the great advantage. So, these firearms at WeShoot are threaded for a suppressor. You can’t have a suppressor yet in New Jersey, but hopefully down the road, you’ll be able to. And if you have any of those guns, you’ll be set to go and buy a nice suppressor. So, look, folks, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com and make sure you visit the range. You’ll love it. It’s a fantastic resource that we have in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 27:18
And let me also tell you about another resource in New Jersey, and that’s my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Don’t be left behind and not have the book. I wrote this book to try to keep you legal, keep you from becoming another victim of New Jersey gun laws brought to you by the New Jersey Second Amendment oppression system. Okay, that’s what our gun laws are. It’s a system of Second Amendment oppression, and I have laid out for you how to navigate through that very complicated matrix of laws so you can stay legal. It is the resource on the subject. Go to EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com, to get your copy today. Hey, Teddy, what do you have for us today in Press Checks?
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Teddy Nappen 28:20
Well, as you know, press checks are always free. And every now and then, I want to do a double check on our opposition, particularly now, as to see what the spin, the spin that they’re been cooking up.

Evan Nappen 28:36 Oppo research.

Evan Nappen 28:38
Yeah, that’s because there’s not a trace of truth in them. That’s what it is. A trace not even a trace of truth.

Teddy Nappen 28:38
Always a fun time. And it’s from everyone’s Bloomberg, sorry. Bloomturd. Sorry, I misspoke. Is the outlet known as “The Trace. They decided to run an article going off of.

Teddy Nappen 28:56
I always give credit for people able to come up with funny names. Like, you know how MSNBC changed their name because they won’t only be associated. Now it’s MS Now. I’ve heard it called BS Now.

Evan Nappen 29:12 That’s pretty good.

Teddy Nappen 29:13
Yeah, it’s a pretty good one. And you know everyone.

Evan Nappen 29:16
Well, they are competing with CBS, CBS. So, anytime you watch that channel, you see BS.

Evan Nappen 29:25
That’s my dummies favorite channel. I think.

Teddy Nappen 29:25
Yeah, I’m just more of a communist news network myself, but

Teddy Nappen 29:36
I know, right? But going off of The Trace, Trump cancels domestic violence program. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/trump-domestic-violence-program-cancel/) Wow, that sounds horrible and also probably inaccurate. As I was reading through the article, what they’re freaking out about, and by this Alma Beauvais. Oh, multiple sites are scrambling after the Trump administration canceled a program designed to help tackle the dangers by guns in domestic abuse situations. What does that dress up? Domestic abuse situation tackling the issue of guns? Ding, ding, ding, ding. Red flags. They always love to dress it up. Every single time.
Page – 7 – of 13
Evan Nappen 30:25
Well, that is one of the primary ways that New Jersey seizes guns, through that system. And in New Jersey, it’s so easy to make a claim of domestic violence. You just need a predicate act, which can run the gamut of any criminal offense, including harassment, which is a petty disorderly person’s offense, where the essence of harassment is doing something with purpose to annoy. Now, I know none of you have ever annoyed your spouse, right? You’ve never done that. Because if you have, then you’ve committed domestic violence in New Jersey, because that’s harassment. And then you can have your guns seized and a restraining order placed against you. So, it’s customary abused.

Teddy Nappen 31:15
Anytime they try to say harassment, Dad, I always go back to “he threw pretzels at me.”

Evan Nappen 31:22
Yes, that’s an actual case I had where the basis for this champion, shot gunning champion, had all his guns seized was a complaint that he threw pretzels at her. That was it. That’s all it took to qualify enough for a Temporary Restraining Order. And as soon as that TRO issues, pre-printed on the form, pre-printed is a search warrant to search and seize firearms. I mean, that warrant on there is unbelievable. I mean, it’s harder to get a properly made sandwich at Wawa than to get a search warrant as part of a TRO. It’s literally baked into the cake. They check the box and give the address and there you go. Because the DV itself is apparently sufficient to demand the seizure of Second Amendment rights and firearms, and you will then have to fight to regain your rights. New Jersey has a law, by the way, that says anybody who’s had guns seized pursuant to domestic violence becomes a prohibited person. So, even if you weren’t the violator, but your guns happen to be seized too, you’re prohibited from having guns until those guns are returned to you. It’s called “the seized but not returned provision”. So, if you are ever in a DV situation, even though the restraining order gets dismissed, you must get your guns back or you will lose your gun rights. You are a prohibited person, similar to a felon, because you had guns seized and not returned.

Teddy Nappen 33:23
Yeah, so and kind of going off of that, you see where this money comes into play. It was under the Department of Justice’s Firearms Technical Assistance Program, where they would give out these grant monies to different communities to help tackle the dangers posed by guns and domestic abuse situations. The example they give is there was a half a million dollar grant to this Tucson community where the police department, they bragged about 60 protective orders served, 174 firearms “surrendered” by law enforcement. The courts have connected more than 200 high risk abuse survivors with service providers. So, they’re highlighting trying to justify the value of, you know, legalized swatting on individuals.

Evan Nappen 34:17
And by the way, when your guns get seized, they are all run through a forward trace and NICS for check on the guns. And what happens is those forward trace numbers get inflated on every seizure, and then they’ll put out more statistics showing how many states have had how many crime guns. But included in the crime gun statistic are all these seizures taking place where they’re just running them
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through the system in a routine manner. There’s been no conviction for any crime it, but they put them in that category of crime guns to, again, pump the numbers.

Teddy Nappen 35:12
But I also find very funny in the article, is this cancelation coincides with a recent proposed rule by the DOJ that would help restore gun rights to certain people with criminal convictions, including misdemeanor domestic violence offenses. So, remember we talked a while back about the incredibly racist law that Chuck Schumer where they.

Evan Nappen 35:38 Right. Where they stopped.

Teddy Nappen 35:40
They defund the very ability for 33 years.

Evan Nappen 35:44 Yeah, 33 years.

Teddy Nappen 35:46
Now, they’re tying that to helping restore people’s rights to domestic violence.

Evan Nappen 35:51
Right. So, what they’re doing is they’re trying to lay groundwork to fight the rights restoration by somehow trying to link it to domestic violence. Now, keep in mind that the domestic violence misdemeanor gun ban is something where you lose your gun rights for a misdemeanor. So, historically, it was originally only violent felons, and then over time, it became just felons. Then with that slippery slope, it fell to misdemeanors, but it’s domestic violence. You can bet that down the road, the antis would have with any misdemeanor you lose your Second Amendment rights. And the crazy thing about it is, if you commit harassment on someone who qualifies as a victim of domestic violence, such as a spouse, someone you had a dating relationship with, someone you are a shared household member with, either currently or previously, then that’s domestic violence, and you lose your gun rights for the state and the whole country. But if you go around all day long just harassing strangers, and you’ve been charged over and over again with harassing strangers, no problem. You don’t lose your gun rights. So, that’s the strange thing about how that law works.

Teddy Nappen 37:11
Yeah, so kind of going off of this whole touch on Red Flag laws. I was very curious, and I thought to myself, okay, who did it first? Who was the one who was responsible? Whose bright idea was it to create Red Flag laws? Why did this start? Because I find the way to argue with the Left is always look to history because they can’t do history. That’s the part that kills their argument.

Evan Nappen 37:51 When they try to rewrite it.
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Teddy Nappen 37:53
Well, that’s their only. Well, yeah, and that’s why they try to remove civics, which, you know, which they did. So, sure. But shown by this, it turns out the first Red Flag law was enacted in Connecticut in 1999. Apparently, from a New York Times article from 1998, being at the Connecticut lottery, where it was an old accountant who shot four of his supervisors and himself. That was their whole justification for Red Flag, where he apparently from what I am handgun. Others say.

Evan Nappen 38:37
Did you ever notice how every anti-gun law is always based on the lowest common denominator? In other words, they have to find an incident somewhere, and then they use what’s called the straw man technique. So, this is the straw man technique to further gun right suppression. That’s what they’re doing.

Teddy Nappen 39:00
Yeah. And actually, how they try to argue that, oh, if we had red flag laws, we would have been able to stop him. Except South Coast today. This was the article written when they interviewed people. This is their argument. Beck frightened some of his co-workers because it turns out he liked to play paintball. And had a gun.

Evan Nappen 39:24
Oh, paintball. Well, that does it, you know? And see how that’s twisted. And that’s, this is something I encounter, and you and I both have encountered in the system. Well, they’ll just twist it. Where normally you’d say, hey, the guy’s a target shooter. Oh, but he was a target shooter, you know, like, that’s somehow negative, or he played paintball, that’s a negative. Like, no. I mean the overwhelming, incredible, super majority of anybody who plays paintball as a target shooter. Or that matter, even a gun owner, does not commit crimes or wrong doings. It’s a very small number. Yet they want to try to take away everybody’s rights based on a few. And that’s not what it’s about.

Teddy Nappen 40:20
Also highlighting the fact that he was going bald, and so he shaved his head. Yeah, that’s the. Yeah. That’s the ultimate Red Flag, when you’re losing your hair.

Evan Nappen 40:35
I hope that doesn’t become a New Jersey disqualifier, because then I won’t be able to possess guns anymore in New Jersey. Because I’ve been getting pretty thin up there and, you know.

Teddy Nappen 40:46
And of course, they ended with “Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.” It was sign by his father’s door. Oh, yeah, okay.

Evan Nappen 40:56
Well, they’ll probably just increase the fee for hair. Like, the more hair, the cheaper, and the less hair, more expensive. Or maybe they’ll tax, like Russia, at one point they taxed beards. Remember I showed you that coin that was the tax paid so you could have a beard. Yeah, maybe New Jersey will have to
Page – 10 – of 13
have some kind of gun hair tax. And of course, there’ll be heavy licensing associated with that and having to do extensive background checks and hair follicle examination and all that good stuff.

Teddy Nappen 41:34
They also tried to argue for the reason being was he missed out on multiple promotions and wanted to be paid $2 more at his work. So, if anyone at all, who has ever been upset with their boss, and.

Evan Nappen 41:50 Wait a minute.

Teddy Nappen 41:50 Be paid more.

Evan Nappen 41:51
Maybe he also had his red stapler taken.

Teddy Nappen 41:57
Yeah, red stapler, his red stapler.

Evan Nappen 42:00
His red staples. Yeah, that also is a key indicator for any kind of a violent person. So, the excessive concerns over your red stapler.

Teddy Nappen 42:12
Yeah, so the entire birth of the Red Flag Law is based entirely on someone who would not have been red flagged. From what the evidence and things they brought up, then nothing would have brought up. This isn’t like, oh man, he and the factors, like, he’s upset about his work and going bald. Yeah, that’ll stop him.

Evan Nappen 42:32
Well, New Jersey has taken it to an even more extreme, because you have no due process on Red Flag up front. Zero, zip. Someone goes ex parte, meaning just them, talks to police. They get an order signed to seize your guns, search your house, traumatize you and your family, invade your privacy, steal your property, and you never know what happens until after it’s happened. And only afterwards, after you and your loved ones go through that entire traumatic experience, only then do you get to fight to try to get your guns and your gun rights back. It’s absolutely zero due process. When you hear the Left screaming about due process for you know, cartel members and all. Well, New Jersey doesn’t give due process to gun owners, right? Criminals, cartel, you name it, you know? Oh, they’re very concerned about due process, except when it comes to gun owners. Then, who cares about due process?

Teddy Nappen 43:35
Well, it’s and then this is a good point that was brought up to me. Whenever they say the words due process, or they say the words free speech, because that’s the new big thing always. Or democracy,
Page – 11 – of 13
free speech, TM, free speech, trademark, because they want to make it so they can have their free speech, not you or I. And their democracy, their version of democracy, where it’s mob rule on their end, where they have.

Evan Nappen 44:03
I don’t want democracy. And our Founding Fathers didn’t want democracy, and America is not a democracy. America is a republic. There is a huge difference between being a republic, a representative government, a republic and a democracy, a democracy creates a tyranny of the majority. Our Founding Fathers didn’t like it. It was demonstrated through history to be a failure, and how America got perverted into this idea that we’re somehow a democracy, I don’t know. Because we’re not a democracy, and I don’t want us to be one. We’re a republic, and we need to protect the republic.

Teddy Nappen 44:49
Pledge of Allegiance. That’s probably the reason why.

Evan Nappen 44:51
Yeah, I guess so. It’s another move by the enemies of liberty and freedom. Well, Teddy, this week’s GOFU, an important lesson in which the GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are expensive legal problems, but not always legal that gun owners end up making mistakes and paying dearly, and you get to learn from them for free. So, this week’s GOFU is about storing guns at someone else’s house. You cannot do that. I cannot tell you how many times we get cases of individuals who are storing their firearms at their parents’ house, and they don’t live there. Now, the gun owner doesn’t live there, and they’re just storing them at a parents’ house, right? Or a friend’s house, where they have other people’s guns in their safe from other places. You can’t do that in New Jersey, okay? You have to store your guns within an exempted property, such as your home or your place of business that you own. If you have your guns at your friend’s house, there’s no exemption for that. Plus it can be deemed a transfer to your friend, which would itself be unlawful. And then if your guns end up seized in an issue, and they’re taken and they end up finding them somewhere else, then they can not only use it to take away your gun rights, but to criminally charge you.

Evan Nappen 46:33
So, look, folks, if you’re going to store your guns, you store them lawfully under the exemptions which include at your home or at your place of business. That’s actually your place of business that you own. Or a FFL gun dealer that does gun storage, but short of that, you know also other exempted properties, such as at a range. But you can’t just have friends keep your guns. You can’t keep your friends guns. You can’t have your relatives guns. Your relatives can’t keep your guns. And this comes up a lot, and it is definitely a big GOFU.

Evan Nappen 47:14
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.
Page – 12 – of 13
Speaker 2 47:26
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page – 13 – of 13

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E256_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 125-The Latest Anti-gun Puppet ShowAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 125SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, gun, executive order, dealers, guns, gun rights, universal background check, new jersey, law, anti, plan, universal background checks, registration, background checks, called, act, abuse, legislation, litigation, lawyer

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer, our show. We’re proud of our sponsor. Our sponsor is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is the state NRA affiliate for New Jersey. The folks on the frontlines here in battleground New Jersey with a full-time paid lobbyist and at the forefront of all the litigation. You need to be a member of ANJRPC.org. Today, I want to talk about the latest anti-gun puppet show. That’s right. This puppet show stars, his fraudulency, the senile sock puppet, who is known as the current occupier of the White House, also known as our national embarrassment, or just plain old Brandon. Now, what the senile sock puppet has done, of course, he has done through his puppet masters, who are Bloomberg and Giffords and the entire anti-gun Kabal whose routines and patter he obeys diligently. What he has done is put out an Executive Order, a new Executive Order.

Evan Nappen 01:45

Now an Executive Order is done by the President. It’s done when you can’t get legislation through, because your agenda is so disfavored by our Republic, and he can’t get it through legislatively. So, you attempt to do it by executive fiat. And that’s exactly what Biden’s done and unabashedly. He admits that this is exactly what he’s doing. I want to read to you what he’s done and explain the significance of the Executive Order and what’s really behind it and to understand it is important because it actually is very revealing of the big picture, if you know what to look for, that the haters of you and me, haters of gun owners, the hate group known as the anti-gun crowd that hate us, hate our rights and just want to destroy anything related to firearms and disarm us and leave us vulnerable. This is their agenda. We’ve seen it. In order to get that agenda in place, they have their sock puppet there doing their bidding. And what was announced, really spells it out.

Evan Nappen 03:13

Let’s take a look at this. First of all, the occupier is crowing about the “Bipartisan Safer Communities Act”. You may recall that was the anti-gun law passed by Democrats with some traitorous Republicans joining into the so-called Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which does nothing for safety of communities at all. It’s just another step of anti-gun tactics, you know, the salami tactic, piece by piece, and we can’t give them an inch. Yet here we see Republicans falling for it, some of them, and this Page – 2 – of 8

passing and now we’re going to reap effect of the Bipartisan Communities Act. Biden is going to take advantage of that right now.

Evan Nappen 04:19

So, as it says right in the news release from the White House. “When celebrating the Act’s passage,” now think about this. He’s celebrating the Act’s passage. What does that tell you about the Act right away if this guy is celebrating its passage? He is again calling on Congress to act. Why? Because it’s never enough. There’s no compromise here. It’s just take, take, take. That’s all they do. They don’t give anything. They just take rights, take rights, take rights. And of course, he’s calling to take more rights. Even though the bipartisan community safety’s law has passed So what? Take, take, take. So, what’s he calling for now? Well, he’s calling for a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. You know, assault weapons, which are really modern sporting arms, modern sporting rifles, high-capacity magazines that we know are just standard capacity magazines, requiring background checks for all gun sales, often called UBC, Universal Background Checks. We’re going to talk more about that in a moment. Requiring safe storage of firearms. We’re going to talk about that, too. Closing the dating violence restraining order loophole and repealing gun manufacturer immunity from liability.

Evan Nappen 05:53

That’s right. These are all the agenda items that he wants Congress to act and to do this, but he can’t get that through, because they’re all outrageous and destructive of the Second Amendment. So, what he’s done is as much as he can do, by way of Executive Order. This is not voted on by Congress. Not voted on by the folks we elected to represent us. Not approved as law. No, it’s done by just a president who wants to push his failed agenda that he can’t get through Congress. And this is what he’s doing now.

Evan Nappen 06:34

The executive order directs number one, the President’s Cabinet to increase the number of background checks by ensuring that all background checks required by law are conducted before firearm purchases, moving the U.S. as close to universal background checks as possible without additional legislation. You see, he’s doing the very thing there. He can’t get Universal Background Check passed. So, he’s going to do it by way of executive fiat. Some of you may say, well, you know, I’m in favor of background checks. I don’t think someone disqualified should get a gun, or you think you’re being reasonable by having that position. But that only shows me that you don’t understand what Universal Background Check is really about.

Evan Nappen 07:29

What it’s really about is complete gun registration. Because if you have Universal Background Check that means every gun transfer goes through a dealer. And if every gun transfer goes through a dealer, then every gun transfer is registered through the dealer, recorded through the acquisition and disposition books. You may have heard, and if not, I’ll tell you now, that those acquisition and disposition books that have come into the hands of the Government, after businesses have closed, or after FFLs lose their license. However, they come in, all of those records, almost 1 billion gun transfer records, folks, have been illegally databased by the Government. That’s right. They have databased those records. They are building the list. And by having Universal Background Checks, you can have a Page – 3 – of 8

real time, current list of everybody who has purchased a gun. So, Universal Background Check is really code for Universal Gun Registration.

Evan Nappen 08:55

Suddenly, they say, well, what’s wrong with registering your guns, because, hey, we register our cars. We register, you know, to get married. We register. Because when it comes to guns, there’s a little pattern that has repeated itself through history, and you can see it when it comes to registration of guns. It starts with Legislation. Then from Legislation comes Registration. And then from Registration comes Confiscation. And I see that firsthand, where there’s registration schemes, and then the guns are confiscated. Then after Confiscation comes the fourth word, and that’s Extermination. If you look at the great Holocausts through history, not just the Holocaust in Germany, but other Holocausts, what preceded them was confiscation of arms of the people that were slaughtered. So, registration is the tool that gets to disarmament and Universal Background Check is simply code word for accomplishing that.

Evan Nappen 10:10

Yet here, they’re looking to do it without additional legislation. Well, how can you do that without additional legislation? Oh, well, he explains that. He’s going to make sure that firearm sellers, this is quoting “that firearm sellers who do not realize that they’re required to run background checks under existing law, or who are willfully violating existing law, become compliant with background check requirements.” Now, think about this. Firearm sellers who do not realize they’re required to run background checks. Well, he didn’t say firearm “dealers”, he said firearm “sellers”. That means various individuals who the Government wants to claim are acting as unlicensed dealers. It’s those people, individuals, who may be hobbyist and collectors that sell some guns here and there or do private transfers.

Evan Nappen 11:17

Ah, they don’t realize that they’re actually, in the opinion of the current occupier of the White House and his incredibly biased Justice Department and given the new definition that was modified in that bipartisan act as to what a firearm dealer is. Well, now you see we have these unlicensed gun dealers. They really aren’t unlicensed dealers, but they’re going to be made out to be. Then what’s the excuse to go after them? Well, if they’re licensed dealers, then they have to do background checks. So, that’s how we’re going to get more of these background checks. You see, that’s the plan. You may say, well, okay, that’ll force more people to become federal firearm dealers. Well, it may, except the other part of his plan that we’re going to get to, is how they want to shut down dealers. So, if you create a system of Universal Background Checks, then every dealer you close down, you can put their guns in a data base. As you shut down dealer after dealer and the only way you can acquire a gun is through a dealer, but there aren’t any more dealers left to sell you a gun. Well, that’s how you shut down guns in America. See, that’s what the plan is. And every piece here fits what I’m telling you, every piece.

Evan Nappen 12:40

Let’s keep looking at this. How are they going to do this? Well, they’re going to, he’s encouraging the Attorney General to move the U.S. as close to Universal Background Checks as possible without additional legislation by clarifying, as appropriate, the statutory definition of who is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms, as updated by the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. So, there you go. Page – 4 – of 8

They’re now going to abuse the new definition, that those Republican suckers and traitors joined in passing, to give the power to the administrative agency, by this Executive Order, encouraging them to clarify, as appropriate, the definition of who’s engaged in business. Well, you can sure see where that’s going. It’s going to be pretty damn broad. And that’s what is going to be used to go after law-abiding citizens on their private transfers under this Universal Background Check lie that is sold to the people.

Evan Nappen 14:03

And it doesn’t end there. Because the Executive Order also says that they’re going to put a plan in to prevent former federally licensed firearm dealers whose licenses have been revoked or surrendered, or surrendered, from continuing to engage in a business of dealing in firearms. So, if you ever had a license that was revoked or you gave up that license, then you’re not going to be allowed to continue to engage in the business. This shuts down folks from engaging in the business even if they want to surrender a license and start a new business somewhere. It doesn’t matter. You see the idea now is continue to put the squeeze on FFLs, continue to broaden the definition of who’s covered by the net of having to be an FFL. And then work into that this Universal Background Check push that eventually they want to have as legislation as well, to end private sales, so that you combine both registration and confiscation and the inability to even purchase new firearms.

Evan Nappen 15:29

This is the groundwork, and this didn’t just come about because one day Biden just wakes up and says, hey, I got this idea. No, this is anti-gun think tank here, folks. This is the scheme implemented, being started, and pushed by the anti-gun think tank that has looked at the big picture and the small picture. This is their plan, and this is their push. You’ve got to recognize this. You’ve got to see it for what it is. When we come back, we’re going to get more in depth on this plan and the other mechanical elements of it to take away our rights.

Speaker 3 16:16

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:28

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:45 Page – 5 – of 8

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I just want to mention to all of you to make sure your membership is current with the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the key fighting force for our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. I’m proud that they are our sponsor. They are incredibly effective, and they have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. When you belong as a member, you’re going to get the news alerts, email alerts, to be able to take action, be on top of this fight, know what’s going on, and things you can do to help them. It becomes very, very important.

Evan Nappen 18:28

They’re also at the forefront with litigation. Their cases are in front of federal court now challenging the Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill by Governor Murphy. Challenging as we speak, the assault firearm ban in New Jersey and large capacity magazine ban. They’re challenging right now the constitutionality and that’s moving forward. They’re fighting and challenging and joining in litigation including my firm’s case right now challenging the so-called public health, safety, and welfare, license denial Gambit that is used to screw gun owners out of their rights in New Jersey. It’s really important, and it’s a fantastic organization. You get one of the finest newsletters on gun rights you can get. Jersey focused and explaining to you the issues that you want to know and understand. Plus, as a range member, they have a gorgeous range, Cherry Ridge, beautiful. You shoot into the side of a mountain. Just a lovely place. So, join your state association as the minimum you can do. Go to www.anjrpc.org. Make sure you belong to the Association to know that you’re doing your part.

Evan Nappen 19:58

Well, looking back still, at this Executive Order and its real implications. To understand the big picture here that’s being forced upon us and what the agenda really is hiding behind this language. They want to also, Biden says, improve awareness and increase appropriate use of extreme risk protection, red flag orders, and safe storage of firearms. Well, Red Flag is basically the no due process gun seizures that take place all the time in New Jersey. No due process. Somebody decides you’re a problem because they say so. You are never in front of a judge up front, and you don’t get to say anything. It’s all done ex parte, without your involvement. Next thing you know, they’re coming in your home, searching through your home, taking your guns, taking your gun rights. Then you get to go to court, finally, to fight it after the damage is done. And it is an abuse that is unbelievable. Yet it’s there, and he wants to continue this abuse. He wants to increase this abuse. He wants to spread this abuse throughout America.

Evan Nappen 21:28

So that on top of Universal Registration, on top of squeezing dealers, and defining other individuals as dealers who never were dealers, is Gun Confiscation. Their vehicle to grabbing the guns now is a red flag, red flag. We see it every day in New Jersey because that’s how it gets abused. And that’s what’s going on. You have to oppose this no due process Red Flag. It is horrific. And, you know, I’ve talked about it on prior shows, just how bad New Jersey is and how New Jersey, according to the occupier in the White House, is the model legislation for the nation. Yes. The no due process Jersey special is the model for America. And what does this increased awareness program consist of? Oh, well, he says right in here. By partnering with law enforcement, health care providers, educators, and other community leaders. So, this way, you get the word out on how everybody can make that call and get other people’s gun seized. Page – 6 – of 8

Evan Nappen 22:45

This is the abuse that we see happen with health care providers in Jersey, the so-called Duty to Warn. We’ve talked about that. You just say something, even a hyperbolic statement, you know, oh, man, that guy got me so mad, I could kill him. Or, you know, man, I was so upset that I could kill myself. Even though you didn’t mean any of it. GAME OVER. Guns confiscated, and you get taken away to for evaluation. Oh, sure. This is the plan. This is reality. This is not speculation. This is case after case after case that my office defends individuals on. It really is happening. And that’s where he’s putting his push.

Evan Nappen 23:28

Also, he puts that we need to address loss or theft of firearms during shipping. Now, who could be against that? Who wants theft of firearms during shipping? I don’t want to see that. Everything they put forward sounds so wonderful and reasonable until you actually know what’s going on. What are they talking about? Oh, well, they said firearms reported as lost or stolen shipments. They’re putting the propaganda out and that’s what he’s directing the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Department of Justice, to work to reduce the loss or theft of firearms during shipment and improve reporting of such. So, how do you reduce it? Well, by putting in extra controls, and tracking and registration and expense of shipping, and you make it incredibly burdensome and expensive and intrusive, to ship the guns. Another weak point to attack in the supply chain of guns. You know this is that Think Tank, going to work.

Evan Nappen 24:45

Don’t miss the next section which is holding the gun industry accountable. “The Executive Order directs the President’s Cabinet to: provide the public and policymakers with more information regarding federally licensed firearm dealers who are violating the law.” Well, who could be in favor of these rogue horrible gun dealers violating the law? Right? Yeah, right. Except what this is actually going to do is, “The President is directing the Attorney General to publicly release, to the fullest extent permissible by law, ATF records from the inspection of firearm dealers cited for violation of federal firearm laws.” Folks, every gun dealer goes through what’s called a Compliance Check at some point or another. In the compliance check, because nobody’s perfect, they find little things here or there, whatever. Then the idea is to have the dealer correct them as you would in any other business when there’s such an audit and then their practices improve.

Evan Nappen 26:04

Well, Biden wants every one of those records of dealer compliance checks, remember, unless the dealer got an absolutely perfect compliance check without any single little thing being a violation, those records go to the public. By the way, how far is that going to go? Is it going to reveal inventories and guns and serial numbers? And what is the real purpose of this? Well, the real purpose of the release of this information is to use it in conjunction with litigation. Litigation. To try to end the firearm industry by using and abusing the tort law system. We’re going to get to that in a minute because that’s part of his Executive Order as well.

Evan Nappen 26:55 Page – 7 – of 8

He also ordered that the Defense Department’s acquisition of firearms, to further firearm and public safety practices. So, the Department of Defense buys a large number of firearms and other weapons to protect and serve our country. The President is directing the Secretary of Defense to develop and implement procedures to further firearm and public safety practices through the acquisition. So, you want a government contract to sell guns? Well, they’re going to put a whole host of requirements that you’re going to have to follow, that aren’t pushed by law, required by law, but instead required by the Department to further attack our gun rights by using the power of the Defense purchase of firearms, to force the companies to screw with our gun rights. That’s the plan behind that.

Evan Nappen 27:50

Then he’s encouraging the independent Federal Trade Commission. Remember, they’re independent, but he’s encouraging them to issue a report on how gun manufacturers market firearms to minors and how such manufacturers market firearms to all civilians, including through the use of military imagery. Why is that? Because that’s their ploy to suing the gun industry. It was used against Remington. It’s their way to get around the Lawful Commerce Protection Act. This is their Gambit. They want to go at it there and get these so-called studies and reports, to bolster what will be litigation to try to litigate the industry out of existence.

Evan Nappen 28:43

Again, this is all their Think Tank stuff from the anti-gun groups that get together and come up with this plan. Then they get their puppet, the senile sock puppet, to put it out there. And that’s what they’re doing. This is what this executive order is laying the groundwork for. When you read it carefully and you understand what is actually going on here, then you see just how evil and just how destructive of our Second Amendment and right to keep and bear arms. The groundwork is being laid here in this plan. This is their blueprint to destroy us even in the wake of the Bruen decision and the court strengthening our Second Amendment rights. This is their end run. This is how they’re looking to do it.

Evan Nappen 29:45

They also are going to push for “additional steps to make our communities safer and support communities impacted by gun violence.” There’s that catch phrase for this. Gun violence versus gun rights. If anything, it should be criminal violence, not just gun violence. Because there’s good gun violence as well as bad gun violence. But when we talk about criminal violence, then it’s only bad violence, and they use this to go after our rights. Yet again, we’ve talked about that in the past.

Evan Nappen 30:26

In addition to all this, there’s a push now, at the end of this Executive Order, which you may find interesting, that says, they want Congress to modernize and make permanent, the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988, which is currently set to expire in December 2023. Well look at that. The Undetectable Firearms Act is going to expire. No way in hell should that be renewed. That is an attempt, the way they want to see it modernized, to stop modern development of modern sporting firearms that utilize lightweight materials in the making of guns. They want to hold it back and stop the industry because with these new materials, you don’t have to use the same resources, natural resources, steel, etc. You can make these firearms more affordable, make them lighter, make them more durable. And again, this is to shut down the industry and its evolution of firearms by keeping it Page – 8 – of 8

from being able to use modern materials and also using it to stop individuals that want to make a homemade firearm using modern materials as well. Again, this is all part of the plan.

Evan Nappen 32:07

So, when you look at this Executive Order, you can see the blueprint for where the fight for our rights is going to come down. I want to make sure my listeners understood just how serious and what the truth is behind these plans. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:37

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E125_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 124-how to poop with a gunAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 124SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, permit, firearm, exemptions, new jersey, case, defendant, carry, state, gun rights, technique, holstered, court, restrictions, carry permit, lawyer, litigation, judge, law, reeves

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:15

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. We are proud to be sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s the NRA state affiliate in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a member of their state association. Go to anjrpc.org to find out more. I have been thinking about a number of cases that I’ve had and issues that have come up, and now I’m seeing more of this. It has to do with, in a way, so many New Jerseyans finally having the right to carry, but not being completely familiar with the tips and tricks and protocols of things that are involved in carry, that aren’t often covered or addressed.

Evan Nappen 01:20

I want to deal with one of the key issues when it comes to carrying your gun, and that is how do you poop with your gun? This is important. Because if you’re out carrying your gun, and you gotta go, how do you handle that situation while you are carrying your gun? You might say, well, why is this important at all? Is this just being silly? Absolutely not. Because what happens is individuals, I’ve had many of these cases through the years, accidentally leave their gun in the bathroom. If you leave your gun on the back of the toilet or you leave your gun on the toilet paper dispenser and you forget it, guess what, you’re now in a world of well, poop.

Evan Nappen 02:14

And the reason is because the gun ends up being gone from your possession. If you’re fortunate, you can retrieve it. But normally what happens there is it ends up with the police, if an honest person finds it first. And that’s now going to create a problem for you maintaining your license, you might be charged with criminal charges about being reckless, etc. And if somebody who’s unauthorized gets a hold of it and causes a problem, then you can see that it’s going to go bad for you. This is definitely a situation where you have to be extra cautious if you’re carrying your gun, and you have to go to the bathroom.

Evan Nappen 03:09

So, I want to review with you some important techniques and tips about what to do and not do when you’re going to do your business. Number one, and I would emphasize this, the number one thing is keeping your firearm holstered. By keeping it holstered, you are going to have less likelihood of an accidental discharge of dropping your gun, of exposing it, etc. So, keeping it holstered is the general number one rule. Plus, if it’s holstered, you’re less likely to forget it and that immediately maintains an Page – 2 – of 8

advantage by keeping it in the holster. Now I would also suggest that you never put your gun outside of your holster on top of the toilet tank or take it out and put it on the coat hanging ring. Anything like this, in which you may forget it, miss it, and end up leaving your gun.

Evan Nappen 04:42

What do we do, what can we do to help ensure this and do this in a safe way? Well, if you leave your gun in the holster and pull down your pants, well, now that gun is close to the ground, and in theory, could be seen by someone in another stall at an angle. It has been known to have folks grab under the stall and grab somebody’s gun and take off. You can imagine if you’re in that rather vulnerable position, sitting on the toilet, and somebody grabs your gun in the other stall and takes off, you’re going to have a hard time getting your pants up and getting out of that stall and catching that person who just snatched your gun out of the holster. So, we don’t want to unholster it, but you have that potential. You want to be careful of the exposure of the firearm on the floor while you’re in a public bathroom.

Evan Nappen 05:50

One of the techniques you can do there is you can try to get a corner stall, and a corner stall will help at least block one side of vulnerability. If that’s the side, by the way, where your gun is, it’s even better. But that’s one way to limit the exposure. The other tactic or technique is if you’re in any of these facilities these days that have a family restroom. Normally the family restroom has a diaper changing table and as tempted as you might be to put your gun on the diaper table, don’t do that. Again, you may forget it, and now it’s unholstered again. But the advantage of the family restroom is you can lock that room, and it’s only you in the room. Now, your vulnerability to theft of the firearm is limited, and you can maintain your privacy. So that’s something to look to do if you’re carrying.

Evan Nappen 07:00

Now there’s also some physical techniques that can be of great service here. One is, and some folks do this, they don’t pull their pants all the way down. So, if you’re able to do that and still effectively take care of business, as Elvis would say, then you can use that technique. Of course, be careful that the holster doesn’t have the firearm role so that it’s actually pointing upwards. You never want a firearm pointing at you or anybody else. Even if it’s in a holster, you don’t want it pointing. Make sure you don’t have that role happen. So, be careful with the positioning of the gun when you do this. Make sure it doesn’t do that fold over.

Evan Nappen 07:51

I would say that the best technique, best trick, the number one tip for pooping with your gun, is when you pull your pants down, take your underwear on the side where the gun is and pull the underwear up and over the gun, over the butt of the gun, of your holstered gun. Now what that does is number one, it keeps the firearm from rolling and folding and falling on the ground. It stops it from scratching and scraping on the ground. It also secures it so that it is much more difficult for somebody to snatch and grab out of the holster. When the underwear acts as a stretchy cover going over the butt of the gun, that ensures its position and keeps it firmly against your leg and upright. That is actually the preferred technique, if you can believe it, is the old underwear stretch around the gun. So, experiment yourself with that and see how that technique can work for you. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 09:14

But keep in mind about the dangers of leaving your gun in the bathroom and what can happen by unholstering it in a public place. You want to maintain your control at all times over the gun, even when you’re going to the bathroom. You don’t want to end up in a case where they’re moving to revoke your license because you negligently or recklessly left your gun and some other third party got a hold of it. Then, of course, the trouble can be even more than simply a license loss. So, take that responsibility seriously. We’re going to have to keep training ourselves and learning about dealing with these issues as we carry. Here we are, new to carry in New Jersey in a broad sense, and what do we need? What do the gun owners in New Jersey need? Toilet training! Oh my god, but it’s still true. So, make sure you adhere to these warnings. I’ve seen cases where folks don’t, and it is extremely regrettable.

Evan Nappen 10:42

You know, I recently got a letter, and I love sharing the letters that come in to Gun Lawyer. This letter is from Rolf, and he says regarding other firearms with a pistol brace. I’m a New Jersey resident, but I own houses in Florida and Vermont. If I register my Other Firearm with ATF, can I legally store and possess them in either my Florida or Vermont homes where registered SBRs are legal? Frankly, in the past that has been legal. I know that back when they did the federal so-called assault weapon ban and then Secretary Benson, as a kind of a warmup to that, arbitrarily declared Street Sweepers and Striker-12 shot guns to be destructive devices. Then they had a “free”, free destructive device registration period where you could do basically what they’re doing now with the pistol brace firearms as SBRs. It was permitted for individuals, particularly because in New Jersey, possession of a Street Sweeper or Striker-12 had recently become prohibited under the assault firearm ban of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 12:21

So, if you had one and you had rendered it inoperable, which allowed you to possess it, ATF was still taking a position that they weren’t going to register New Jersey “destructive device” shotguns such as the Street Sweeper and Striker-12, because Jersey had a prohibition on those as revolving cylinder shotguns under the assault firearm law in New Jersey, but they did allow individuals to register them and possess them out of state in homes that they had out of state as long as in the out of state home, it was legal to possess them. Many individuals that I know have registered these shotguns in Pennsylvania, in their Pennsylvania homes, even though they were New Jersey residents, because the SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) registration is a federal registration. Federal law prohibits an individual from registering a National Firearms Act prohibited firearm in a state where you can’t lawfully have it under state law. But you can have it in states where it isn’t prohibited by state law.

Evan Nappen 13:48

New Jersey currently prohibits SBRs. So, ATF is not going to let a New Jersey resident, at least under the law they shouldn’t be letting any New Jersey resident, actually register a pistol brace gun as an SBR. Because if it is then deemed an SBR, New Jersey has no lawful way to possess an SBR. So, this idea of registering it, and storing it out of state should be viable, and you’re going to need to clear that, of course, with ATF as that is what you want to do. And like I said, there’s some precedent for that happening in the past, because it was done with the retroactive destructive device ruling by Secretary Benson on Street Sweepers and Striker-12s. So, that is an idea that’s apparently feasible. Page – 4 – of 8

Evan Nappen 14:52

Now if you can’t do that, you’re going to need to take action over those pistol brace guns as far as the feds are concerned. You have those 120 days, and in New Jersey, the options are limited. We’ve discussed them on other Gun Lawyer episodes. Hopefully the litigation that’s ongoing, which is massive against Biden’s ban, will be successful. I know there’s a number of actions, and one of them involves 25 states joining through their Attorney Generals in opposing Biden’s gun ban. Half of the country opposes Biden’s gun ban in federal court in this action. That just shows you how outrageous it is. So, we’ll see what happens in that litigation. Hopefully, we’ll have good news, and we won’t have to worry about any of these things. But keep your eye on that time deadline to take action so that you don’t get stuck with a problem. When we come back, I have an important case that just a couple of days ago, was decided in New Jersey, and it directly impacts folks with certain permits to carry handguns. I want to discuss this in detail. It is a very interesting case that you need to be aware of. We’ll see in a few.

Speaker 3 16:35

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:49

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 18:04

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I want to thank you all for being great listeners. I really appreciate it. It gives me a chance to get the word out, to be the shadow bans and algorithms and everything else as they try to suppress our speech in America. It’s just amazing that I even have to say such a thing in America, but you know it’s true. This is how I’m able to reach out and provide you with important information protecting our rights. Making this possible and helping to give this voice is our state association, a sponsor of this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC. Now let me tell you about the state association. They are our lobby group for gun rights. They have a full-time paid lobbyist. But they’re more than that.

Evan Nappen 19:01

They’re the NRA state affiliate. They’re involved in the litigation going on across the board over pistol braces and assault firearms and large capacity magazines all focused on our rights in New Jersey. They have a beautiful range, Cherry Ridge Range, shooting into the side of a mountain. It’s gorgeous Page – 5 – of 8

up there. If you are a member of association and join with the range privileges, it’s just such a beautiful place to shoot. And by being a member, you are going to get the email alerts of action. You’re being advised right away as to progress in the courts and what’s going on in the legislature. You also get one of the finest gun rights newsletters. The Association newsletter is a hardcopy newsletter that is dedicated to what is going on in New Jersey, directly affecting your rights, our rights and what we need to know. So, make sure you join the Association. It’s really important. As a member, that’s where we get power in our unity. You’ll find it there at anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 20:21

We have a case that just came out, just decided on March 6, and it is State (of New Jersey) v. Reeves. This is an Appellate Division case in New Jersey. It’s the appeals court in New Jersey. The case is a published opinion, but it’s not what they call “published” in terms of the legal terminology of published. In other words, you can find it and read it. It’s published in that regard. But it’s not yet “approved for publication”, meaning binding case law. When a case is approved for publication, it means that the case stands as binding law throughout the state. Nonetheless, these cases that are decided are still very important. They are very instructive. They’re what we call unpublished decisions, even though they’re published. I mean, leave it to the law to have such a thing as unpublished published decisions, but that’s what it is. They’re still utilized to address various issues that come up when there’s nothing else that has dealt with the particular issues, and they are used to be very informative and such. When you argue motions and do things in the court and you want to rely upon an unpublished opinion, you can put it into your brief and into your argument. You supply a copy of it to the court.

Evan Nappen 22:02

These are accessible online through the courts in New Jersey, through the Appellate Division. You can pull this State of New Jersey versus Shawn Reeves case. It is Docket No. A-0921-20 if anyone wants to read it, but I want to point out some highlights in this case that show the way the court is interpreting the restrictions on restricted permits. Because we’ve talked about how the Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill is just a horror show and disgusting and an attempt by our politicians to be whining and kicking and screaming and not accepting the Bruen decision and doing anything they can to get in the way of our God given Second Amendment rights by putting this monstrosity forward, and then claiming that it’s somehow in our interest. They want to keep you a victim. Make sure you stay a victim of crime and not be able to defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 23:15

But in this horrible, ridiculous law, there are actually a few pieces of gold. One of the best things of all, just the number one best thing about that law, if there is such a thing that you could actually say is good in it, is that judges have been taken out of the picture from being issuing authorities. Judges have always been the bane of our gun rights. Throughout New Jersey’s history, you see how the judges have failed to protect our Second Amendment rights, and in fact, have done the opposite. They’ve ran an aggressive campaign against our gun rights. Under the old law, judges were the issuing authority, but under the new law they no longer are. So, that is the blessing, that is a win right there. As we proceed with our litigation, hopefully, we will cut away with surgical precision, all that bad stuff in this law, which is going quite well now in the litigation. And as we cut away all the rotten, terrible stuff, we Page – 6 – of 8

actually will be left with some useful provisions, not the least of which is getting judges out of the picture.

Evan Nappen 24:33

Now this case further illustrates the problem with judges issuing permits. Prior to Bruen, judges issued restricted permits. Now restricted permits no longer exist because permits, from December (2022) onward, since the new Carry Killer law was passed, are only issued by a Chief, and there’s no authority or ability produce to put restrictions on. In a post-Bruen world, restrictions cannot be willy nilly and such. There are some limited restrictions that are apparently allowed under Bruen, and New Jersey has just gone nuts with identifying 25 ridiculously broad, sensitive places, and trying to restrict them in every way. And that’s playing out in the litigation. But prior, you had judges that would issue restrictions on carry. Currently, you have some judges, particularly Judge Oxley out of Monmouth County right now, that have decided to add restrictions to the permit. We’ve talked about this restriction that imposes the exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6(g) on a carry permit holder, which is, of course, absurd, because that provision is about the transport of firearms while transporting under exemptions of 39-6. But if you have a carry permit, you’re not utilizing exemptions under 39-6. The exemptions under 39-6 are for those that do not have a carry permit.

Evan Nappen 26:22

But it doesn’t matter, because the judge has tied the 39-6(g) requirements of the exemptions to that permit and restricted it. What it does is it essentially guts the value of the permit by requiring that when you transport your gun that it’s unloaded and either in a case, or in a closed and fastened case, or in a securely tied wrapper, or locked in the trunk of your vehicle, or in a gun box. But it’s unloaded and secured in that manner. Well, when you have a carry permit, that’s not how it’s supposed to be. Yet by putting that on the back of the permit, it now creates this conundrum. Do I carry by way my permit? Or am I restricted by the back of the permit? Do I have to carry by 39-(g) or can I carry by way of the permit that was supposed to exempt me from exemptions? Am I bound by what the judge said and wrote on the permit and its restriction? Or am I free to carry pursuant to the permit and essentially what Bruen laid out?

Evan Nappen 27:41

The court, the Appellate Court, in New Jersey and the Reeves case said as follows. First, it says here, and I’ll just read you for a little bit from the case, “Defendant Shawn Reeves appeals from his jury trial conviction for unlawful possession of a handgun and impersonating a police officer. He obtained a permit that allowed him to carry a firearm only while he was performing his duties as a private security guard. During a traffic stop, he waved a badge at the officers and stated, ‘I’m an officer just like you.’ Defendant was wearing a loaded firearm in a holster. He was arrested for unlawfully carrying the firearm in public beyond the scope is carry permit.”

Evan Nappen 28:24

Now this impersonating an officer issue is separate, and it’s not what I’m concerned with here. I am concerned with someone who had a carry permit, a carry permit that was allegedly restricted, and the restriction said that he could only have his gun while performing his duties as a private security guard. Now in this trial with these issues here, the court states in the opinion that in August of 2015 Defendant Page – 7 – of 8

applied for carry permit. The permitting judge construed the defendant’s request as an application for permission to carry a handgun while in the employment of Visual Protection Services, while serving as an armed security guard and assigned to the City of Newark. The permit defendant received was limited to those circumstances. So, here’s the limited restricted carry that was issued prior to Bruen.

Evan Nappen 29:41

Of course, now you have a trial, and the defendant was charged accordingly. Here’s the part that I want you to pay particular attention to. In this trial, the judge gave the jury, as a jury instruction, the exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6(g). Oh, sound familiar, folks? That’s right, the very exemption that’s on the Oxley carry permit out of Monmouth County, the same one, 39-6(g). Listen to what it says here. This exemption was not requested at all by the defendant. I’ll read to you directly from the case. Defendant also contends that the judge erred, that the judge made a mistake, in instructing the jury regarding the legal requirements for transporting a firearm pursuant to NJS 2C:39-6. Before trial, defendant argued that the court should not charge the jury on exemptions set forth in 39-6. Specifically, defendant argued to the trial court, and this is the court opinion quoting what was said in the trial. The court has already indicated that the court believes that the requirements of NJS 2C:39-6(g) are applicable to the case. Judge, I have yet and the State, in its brief, did not cite to any authority or any indication, any legal indication, that 2C:39-6(g) applies to defendant. As we stated in our brief, Judge, the title of 2C:39-6 is exemptions. It deals specifically — the entire statute deals with persons that are exempt from the requirement to obtain a permit. Defendant was not such person, that’s why he got a permit to carry. He is not an exempt person. That entire statute, the entirety of 39-6 applies to persons that are exempt and it talks about how they become exempt, how they stay exempt and what they have to do while they are exempt. Defendant is not an exempt person and none of that statute applies to him.

Evan Nappen 32:11

That was defense counsel for Reeves arguing to the court not to give the jury the exemptions of 39-6(g) because they did not apply here. This is a carry permit case, not an exemption for possession case. He had the permit. And guess what? The court gave the exemptions. The court said nope, too bad. We’re going to make sure the jury has the exemptions as well. And guess what? The Appellate Court upholds it in Reeves, and says yes, they can consider it as the exemptions.

Evan Nappen 32:54

So, folks, think about what this case means. Think about this case and what it means in terms of any of you that have an Oxley permit, that puts 39-6(g) as a judge ordered restriction on your permit. It then becomes something, arguably, that has to be considered by the jury as to whether you were in conformance with it or not. That’s right. You can read this opinion for yourself. It bodes very poorly. So, if you have such a permit, you need to take action to either get that requirement struck or to surrender your permit, and reapply and get a chief issued permit without that nonsense on it. Or wait until your permit expires, and then apply for a new permit from your chief or Superintendent. But that restriction is a problem, and the Reeves case indicates that it’s even more of a problem. So, beware, folks, beware. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 8 – of 8

Speaker 3 34:33

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E124_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 123-How to Lose your Gun RightsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 123SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, gun rights, person, new jersey, gun, fight, rights, expungement, state, prohibited, association, assault weapons, felony, disabilities, deny, domestic violence, lawyer, joni mitchell, discover, guns

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I have some interesting things for you, a couple news bits here. Before I get to them, I want to thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, the number one defender of gun rights in New Jersey, and the official NRA affiliate. They are the folks with their feet on the ground in Trenton with full-time paid lobbyists, and they are litigating these major cases that are going to have direct impact, already have, on our gun rights.

Evan Nappen 00:55

So, I was looking at this, and I saw this headline, but actually, it’s even funnier. When you read deeper as to what it is, you know, Biden, just recently gave an address to the House Democratic Caucus in Baltimore, Maryland. And it seems that he was snubbed by more than a dozen Democrat lawmakers. Instead of hearing the President give a speech, they decided to go to a Joni Mitchell concert instead. Now I say that’s a wise choice actually for them. They were joined by a number of Republicans including the Speaker of the House and Susan Collins of Maine, etc. So, all these legislators decided they’re not going to listen to his fraudulency, the senile sock puppet, and see what he has to say. No, instead, they said, Joni Mitchell is the place to be. But what I really love, and this is a part they don’t emphasize here, is what President Brandon said at his speech to the Caucus. Do you know what he said there? Guess what, folks? Guess what his whole theme, his whole push at this hearing was? Well, it’s to ban assault firearms, of course. Of course. Biden said he’s going to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines come hell or high water. That’s what he’s going to do. And guess what? Nobody wants to hear it. Not even the Democrats want to hear it. Nobody wants to hear him. They’d rather go to a Joni Mitchell concert, and I don’t blame them because I’d rather do that too. He’s just bloviating continuously over this garbage called assault firearms. The assault weapons which are made up because they’re just an-anti gun ploy. We don’t even use the term assault weapons if anything. All these guns are our modern sporting rifles. That’s what they are. Modern sporting rifles.

Evan Nappen 03:31

Because true assault weapons, Sturmgewehrs, as the Germans of the Third Reich created and called them, were fully automatic and semi-automatic. They were select fire. None of the firearms that Biden is talking about banning are select fire. No, in fact, they’re just semi-autos, in which this idea when it was put out from the beginning by Josh Sugarman in the book, his manifesto, Assault Weapons and Accessories (in America) (1988). He even said the general public will be fooled by this. We can trick Page – 2 – of 8

them. He admitted it. Because they won’t know the difference between fully automatic and semi-automatic, and he was right. The media and the politicians go along, and Biden is still harping on this same old saw, but luckily even less people are listening to him.

Evan Nappen 04:30

Now another thing here that is important for every gun owner to know is that Discover card, the credit card, Discover is now the first credit card to have gun store tracking. That’s right. They will track your gun purchases when you use Discover Card. In an article by Larry Keane of National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), which is also a gun rights group and important group. They focus on manufacturing and dealers and such. Very important to our rights. In his article from February 23, 2023, it says that “Discover Financial Services announced it will begin using the new controversial codes in April. Reuters reported that Discover will become the first credit card company to use the specific code for purchases at a firearm retailer.” https://www.nssf.org/articles/discover-becomes-first-gun-store-tracking-credit-card/ So beware. If you have a Discover Card, I would get rid of it. They’re obviously part of the anti-gun, and they, of course, are putting it out like it’s to track illegal sales. Yeah, right. Like that has anything to do with credit card purchases. It’s just nonsense. I would highly recommend not using your Discover Card in any way, particularly regarding firearms. And for that matter, you should think about just getting rid of it. Because as these companies go woke, which is really what this is, and they just go extreme left in their propaganda and trying to impose gun control schemes on us through the private sector, we cannot tolerate that. Our response, luckily, in the private sector, is we don’t have to use them. So, this is something to consider. If you’re in the market to buy anything at a sporting goods store, think twice about using your Discover Card.

Evan Nappen 07:09

Well, what I want to talk about today is very important. I want to review the disqualifying disabilities to getting a gun license. In other words, I want you to know how to lose your gun rights in New Jersey. Because if you know how you can lose your gun rights, how you can become a person who is ineligible to have a Firearms ID Card, a pistol purchase permit or a carry license a so-called Permit to Carry a Handgun. They all rely on the same criteria. The criteria are in NJS 2C:58-3c. and that’s where the, what are called the disabilities, are for having guns. If you fall into any of these, you lose your gun rights. You cannot have an ID card, pistol purchase permit or permit to carry a handgun. They all rely on this. If you’re not familiar with what the prohibitors are, you might inadvertently end up being trapped by one of these or more, simply out of ignorance because some of these things you may not realize are firearm disqualifiers in New Jersey. And so, knowledge is key.

Evan Nappen 08:38

So, let’s talk about what they are. And let me tell you, under the Carry Killer bill, the anti-Civil Rights bill that Murphy passed, he made changes to the disqualifiers and added a number of disqualifiers and other conditions that you need to be aware of as well. Listen to the first disqualifier and look at what the changes are. A person shall not be denied a permit, shall not be denied a permit. How about a person who shall be granted? But no, got to put the negative. Unless a person is known in the community in which the person lives as someone who is engaged in acts or made statements suggesting that the person is likely to engage in conduct other than justified self-defense that would pose a danger to self or others. What the hell does that even mean? Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 09:42

Well, I’ll tell you what they’re going out with that, folks. They are going at your social media. They want to see and look at what you’ve posted, what you’ve tweeted. All those kinds of things and see if there’s anything in acts or statements. Statements are freedom of speech, right? Oh, we’re going to use that against you see here. Statements that suggest, the statements don’t actually have to say it. They just have to suggest it. What the hell does that mean? Suggest it. Whatever the judge decides it is going to mean. Right? Suggest that you’re likely to engage in conduct that would pose a danger to yourself or others. And what is that danger? Is a danger, a serious danger? Or is it just a minor danger? Is it a potential danger? What? They don’t say. So, here’s this broad disqualifier out there to try to focus on anything where you’ve engaged in acts or made statements, where there’s a suggestion based on these things, that you might pose a danger to yourself or others.

Evan Nappen 11:06

So, think about that, folks. You better be careful. Granted, it is something that chokes off free speech. If you care about your Second Amendment rights, it seems that you need to limit your First Amendment rights. I understand. We love all our rights, but New Jersey will attempt to use that against you. Use it to stop you from having a firearm. Now, this is being challenged. This broad, vague, garbage of a disqualifier. But until it gets knocked out as unconstitutional, you need to be aware of it, so you don’t fall into its trap.

Evan Nappen 11:45

Now, the next disqualifier says to any person who’s been convicted of any crime in this state, or its felony counterpart in any other state or federal jurisdiction, or any disorderly persons offense in the state, involving an act of domestic violence. So, if you’ve been convicted of a felony, or in New Jersey, they’re called crimes. Or if you had a disorderly person, which is often thought of as a misdemeanor, for domestic violence. So, conviction of felony anywhere in the U.S., you’re prohibited. Conviction of disorderly person for domestic violence, you’re prohibited, and that also mirrors the federal prohibition of a domestic violence, misdemeanor crime, which is also a prohibitor.

Evan Nappen 12:38

Next, any person who is presently confined for a mental disorder as a voluntary admission or who is presently involuntary committed to inpatient or outpatient treatment. So, if you are in a mental health facility, you can’t have a gun. Big surprise. Be aware that if you’re being held in a mental facility, and you apply to get a gun, you will be denied. Okay? There’s a really tricky one there. All right. Now, this is where they get into more Jersey special. Any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for that person to handle firearms, to any person with a substance abuse disorder involving drugs, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor, treatment provider, or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that the person is no longer suffering from that particular disability in a manner that would interfere with or handicap that person in the handling of firearms.

Evan Nappen 13:58 Page – 4 – of 8

So, the bottom line here is if you have a physical defect or disease that would make it unsafe for you to handle firearms, or if you have a substance abuse problem, including alcohol or drugs, then the way to overcome these things is with medical proofs, that you’re no longer suffering from them in a way that makes you essentially a danger in the handling of firearms. So, that is a state disqualifier. Something that’s not found in the federal law. You can see how broad and vague it is so they can get into all kinds of things about you. It’s used again to deny and create the system in New Jersey that becomes treacherous for folks honestly.

Evan Nappen 14:52

Next is any person who knowingly falsifies any information on the application form for a handgun purchase primitive or firearms ID card. So, falsification, which means if you do not give the right answer on the form that itself is a basis to deny, even if the answer that you gave, if it had been correct, wouldn’t necessarily mean you were disqualified. For example, on the form it asks, have you ever been convicted of a disorderly persons offense, any type of offense. They just want to know anything you’ve been convicted of, even though that wouldn’t necessarily bar you, if it wasn’t domestic violence. But if you say no, and you actually had such conviction, now they can say you falsified and then deny your license. And then not only can they deny you, but falsification itself is a crime, a felony level offense, which you can also be criminally prosecuted for. So, it can be very treacherous.

Evan Nappen 15:53

You have to make sure that you answer these questions correctly. Because your failure to answer the questions correctly can not only lead to your gun rights being denied, but you are facing criminal prosecution. And we see that all the time. So be aware of this. We’ve been seeing some agencies that don’t even bother to deny the person when they put the wrong answer. They just immediately criminally charge the person. They don’t even deny the license. Just please come, you’re arrested, and you’re charged for putting the wrong answer. They let the courts sort it out later. So, be very much aware of false information. You don’t want to have any problems. If you have questions about how to answer something, talk to an attorney that understands these firearm applications and questions so that you can be confident in giving the right answer. When we come back, I’m going to continue explaining how to lose your gun rights in New Jersey.

Speaker 3 16:59

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer. Page – 5 – of 8

Speaker 3 18:13

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 18:28

Hey, welcome back, folks, Evan Nappen here. You’re listening to Gun Lawyer, a podcast that is free for you to listen to, free for you to decide to subscribe to. So you can get top gun information, gun rights information, etc. To protect yourself and your rights. And also in that same vein, I want to thank our sponsor, who is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. You need to belong to the Association. You’ve heard me tell you this, but it’s no joke. And it’s not just because they’re a sponsor. I’ve been an active participant in the Association for decades, decades, folks, because that is a key group in New Jersey to defending your rights. I know there’s other groups as well. I’m not saying anything to put them down. I’m just saying no matter what, you better belong to your State Association. That is mandatory if you believe in your gun rights and protecting them and fighting for them in the toughest battleground state in America, which is New Jersey. You see the State Association has full-time paid lobbyists in Trenton standing guard and letting us know right away about the developments so we can fight and alert members.

Evan Nappen 20:04

They are at the forefront of the litigation, challenging the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill with an enormous, fantastic comprehensive lawsuit brought by my friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter. Great attorney. They’re fighting right now on the assault firearm ban which got consolidated with the magazine ban in federal court. And remember, the magazine ban all went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court GVR (Grant, Vacate, Remand). That’s the Association’s case. They sent it back to the lower court to rule in accordance with Bruen. That is a fantastic development, folks. So, we’re looking really, I’m really cautiously optimistic on the litigation. Plus, the State Association is backing our case where we are challenging the very things we’re talking about today. We’re challenging the public health, safety, and welfare disqualifier, which we’re going to get to in a minute. It is unconstitutional, vague and overbroad, and the Association joined it with an amicus brief in that important case. When you join the Association, you’re going to get a number of benefits. Not only knowing that you’re defending gun rights, but you’re going to get email alerts, the instant alerts as to what’s going on. On top of that, you’re going to get a fantastic newsletter. The best gun rights newsletter printed in the state. So, this is something that you will get a lot out of, and you’ll be on top of what is going on, and on the frontlines of the fight. So, please join ANJRPC. Go to www.anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 22:02

Let’s continue looking at the disqualifiers here. These are the things that you can lose your gun rights over. There is an age restriction in New Jersey. You have to be 18 for a Firearm Purchaser ID Card, and you have to be 21 for a Permit to Purchase a Handgun. So, beware of the age limitations. The next disqualifier says any person where the issuance would not be in the interest of public health, safety or welfare because the person is found to be lacking in the essential character of temperament necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. There’s a whole other line of BS right there. You can see how vague and broad and ridiculous such a disqualifier is because, who’s to say what is not in the interest of public health, safety or welfare, even mean? And yet they say, because you’re found to be lacking the Page – 6 – of 8

essential character of temperament. What is the essential character of temperament. Please define that. Necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. Entrusted? It’s our right. It’s our right. I don’t get entrusted with my rights. They’re my rights. They’re your rights. It’s not about being entrusted. That’s nonsense. These are the rights, and to say, you’re disqualified from your right because you don’t have the essential character of temperament. Whatever the hell that means. And it’s not in the interest of public health, safety or welfare. Really? Again, undefined, subjective, crapola. Yet, there it is, and that’s why we’re fighting it. Association is fighting it. We’re trying to get rid of this stuff that is there so that you can subjectively be disenfranchised of your God given Second Amendment rights, fundamental rights to be armed. It’s outrageous. And yet another example of how far New Jersey will go in trying to destroy a constitutional right.

Evan Nappen 24:49

Next, any person who is subject to a temporary or final restraining order under domestic violence. That is correct. That’s also a federal disqualifier, having a domestic violence restraining order. Any person who as a juvenile was adjudicated delinquent for an offense which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a crime. So, New Jersey even looks at juvenile records, juvenile convictions. If you’ve had a juvenile conviction and that juvenile matter would have been, if charged as an adult, a crime, meaning felony level offensive of the adult world, then that counts as a disqualifier for you.

Evan Nappen 25:41

Now, if you have a juvenile record or if you have an adult criminal record, there are ways to restore your rights and my firm does a lot of that. It’s called expungement. We can expunge your criminal record, juvenile and adult, assuming you’re eligible. And with an expungement, your record is cleared. You’re given a clean slate, and it’s deemed as a matter of law not to have occurred. It is no longer a per se disqualifier under these disabilities. So, it’s a way to get your rights restored. If you have a Final Restraining Order that has been upon you, creating a bar under both federal and state law, then, in New Jersey, there’s a way to get rid of restraining orders by bringing a certain type of action in court, to get rid of a restraining order and get rid of the disqualifier that a restraining order places upon you. If you’ve had a mental health commitment, we’re going to get to, there is a mental health expungement that you can use to restore your rights. We do all this type of work in our firm, and we call it rights restoration. So, if you have a problem, if any of these disqualifiers that we’re talking about apply to you or a loved one, give me a call or another attorney that knows gun law call them. We can talk about how to restore your rights. It’s not necessarily the end of your gun rights. There may be a way of salvaging them, of restoring them, of saving them.

Evan Nappen 27:22

Here’s an interesting disqualifier, and it’s something important to know. Because they keep it secret until they want to use it against you, and I’m not kidding about that. And that’s the following, any person whose firearm is seized pursuant to the “Prevention of Domestic Violence Act” and whose firearm has not been returned. That’s right, if you’ve had a gun seized pursuant to domestic violence, because it was a restraining order. Even if the restraining order wasn’t against you. You are an innocent third party and your gun got seized and that gun has not been returned to you. You’re a prohibited person. This is why if you have guns seized, you must fight to get your guns returned. If those guns are not returned, you’ve just been disenfranchised of your Second Amendment rights. You’ve just lost your gun rights. Page – 7 – of 8

Evan Nappen 28:15

Because you were a sucker and allowed those guns to be sold. You were a sucker and agreed not to have them returned to you. They don’t tell you about the disability that I just told you about. They don’t warn you and say, oh, if you agree to have your gun sold or you agree to have it go to a third party or you agree to let the state keep them, then you become a disqualified person prohibited from firearms. No, they don’t tell you that little fact. But I do. And I want you to know it. So, remember to fight for your rights and never give in on a forfeiture. You need to fight it legally and get your property back. Because if you don’t, there’s a price bigger to pay than the mere property that they’re keeping. It costs you your rights.

Evan Nappen 29:13

Any person named on the consolidated Terrorist Watchlist maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center administered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. So, if you’re on the terrorist watchlist, you’re prohibited from firearms. Now, do you know how you get on the terrorist watchlist? Do you know how you get on that? I have no fricking clue how you get on that. Nobody does. They don’t tell you. That’s part of the problem, but if you get on it, you’ve lost your gun rights. How nice. What a ridiculous disqualifier that is, and there’s no due process. It’s really crazy. But there it is.

Evan Nappen 29:57

Any person subject to an ERPO, which is an Extreme Risk Protection Order, often called a Red Flag, although it’s not an official name. A red flag starts out as a TERPO, that’s a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order. Then you have a hearing, and it becomes a FERPO, which is a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order. If you’re subjected to any type of ERPO, whether it’s a TERPO or a FERPO, you are a prohibited person for guns. So, you need to fight any of these red flag actions. If you’re ever served with a TERPO, this has to be battled in the hearing. Otherwise, you will be given a FERPO. Then that final order not only takes away your guns and takes away your gun rights, but also, think about this, it puts you in a database. Because these FERPOs are database in which your name is on a list where you are declared an extreme risk. Do you really think being on a list, labeling you as an extreme risk is a good idea, even putting aside guns? That’s what happens. Battle it out fight. Demand your due process.

Evan Nappen 31:28

Any person who is subject to or has violated a court order that prohibits custody, control, ownership, purchase, possession, or receipt of a firearm or ammunition issued pursuant to a Temporary Protection Order. So, if you have an order and you violate it, then the violation of it. If you’re subject to or violated that becomes a disqualifier. Be aware of that. Any person who is subject to or has violated a temporary or final restraining order pursuant to the “Sexual Assault Survivor Protection Act 2015”. If there’s a rape protection order against you, you’re prohibited from guns.

Evan Nappen 32:07

To any person who has previously been voluntarily admitted to inpatient treatment or involuntarily committed to inpatient or outpatient treatment unless the court has expunge the person’s records. We’ve talked about this. This was an important change. Because now whether you’ve been voluntarily Page – 8 – of 8

admitted to inpatient or involuntarily admitted to inpatient or outpatient, the only way for you to get your rights back is by way of getting a Mental Health Expungement. And until such time, you are a prohibited person. Beware of that. You need to clean that up and get a mental health expungement so that you’re not disenfranchised of your gun rights.

Evan Nappen 33:01

Any person who is subject to an outstanding arrest warrant for a felony. So, if you have an arrest warrant out for you, for a felony, you’re prohibited from getting a gun license. But get a load of this. New Jersey says this does not apply to a person who has a warrant out for them for a felony for providing receiving assisting or providing or receiving or providing material support for or traveling to obtain reproductive health care services that are permitted in New Jersey. So, if you went and illegally got an abortion in another state or illegally provided an abortion, if you’re breaking abortion laws, and have an arrest warrant for a felony, New Jersey wants you to know that you’re okay to get a gun. If you’re providing anything for taking out fetuses, no problem says New Jersey. Your felony warrant doesn’t count. They are exempting folks getting, receiving, traveling, providing for abortions. Yep, that’s the exemption.

Evan Nappen 34:34

They also say that if you’re a fugitive from justice, because you’re fleeing a state or federal jurisdiction, to avoid prosecution for a crime other than a crime to avoid giving testimony in a criminal proceeding. Okay. So, if you’re fleeing and you’re a fugitive from justice, you’re prohibited. Except if you’re fleeing because you want to avoid giving testimony in a criminal proceeding, it does not. Also, it does not include being a fugitive from justice, you’re on the run, you guessed it, for providing, receiving, assisting in providing or receiving, and providing material support for traveling to obtain reproductive health services that are permitted in New Jersey. So, if there’s an outstanding warrant for a felony or you’re a fugitive from justice, for seeking, getting, providing or helping to get abortions illegally in other jurisdictions, you’re good for guns in New Jersey. They exempted you for that. But if it’s anybody else, well, you’re now disqualified.

Evan Nappen 35:58

So, as you can see, the disabilities are wide and varied, and are extremely political in nature as well. And that’s the flavor for New Jersey. You need to be aware of these things so that you don’t become disenfranchised of your gun rights, you don’t get suckered into giving them up, losing them, making mistakes that cost you your rights. Best way to do that is with knowledge. That’s what I want to impart to all my wonderful listeners. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 36:49

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E123_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 122-Think Twice Before Being a Plaintiff for the Brady CenterAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 122SUMMARY KEYWORDS

law, new jersey, carry, gun, brady, permit, carry permit, exemptions, gun laws, gun rights, issued, statutes, fight, state, judge, gun owners, lawyer, hollow, case, folks

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:20

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I want to make it clear that I would advise that you never become a plaintiff for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence because of a recent case here, relatively speaking, that I thought was pretty interesting. It really shows just what can happen. This was out of The Colorado Sun newspaper, and it’s an article by Jesse Paul. And what it says is “Colorado law makes it very difficult and financially perilous to sue the gun industry. (That’s likely to change.)” And you better believe that it does. This is a lesson learned that unless you just want to be a pawn of gun control and don’t care about your own finances, I don’t think it’s such a hot idea. Listen to this. In this article, it says, “Sandy and Lonnie Phillips wanted to hold the gun companies that sold ammunition, tear gas, and armor to their 24-year-old daughter’s murderer accountable.” Instead, they’ve ended up having to file for bankruptcy. Now, you know, I can feel for anybody who has lost their child. It’s terrible. Honestly, I feel horrible for these people. But to attempt to blame the inanimate objects and the people that produce these because they’re being by a very small, miniscule number of folks get used criminally, and then try to hold the company responsible. It just is nothing less than an anti-gun ploy to sue the gun makers, manufacturers, and sellers out of business by abusing the tort system.

Evan Nappen 02:30

So, in response to this tactic that the antis were using, and still are attempting to use, of trying to sue our Second Amendment out of existence, Colorado passed a law that said you cannot bring essentially lawsuits of this nature against manufacturers, dealers, etc. Yet, despite this law, the Phillipses still attempted to sue under some very weak theory that obviously failed to still the Brady Center have their publicity stunt out of it, obviously, and to file the litigation, etc. They spent, as they say here, they lost three years of our life, fighting this, and it says they were like being revictimized, and I can see that. And what happened was the law in Colorado has a provision that says if you bring such an action, and then you lose, it gets dismissed, you are responsible to pay the attorneys’ fees and costs. And guess what? They ended up losing, and they had to pay $200,000 in attorneys’ fees and costs for bringing this action. That was an utter failure, and they should have known that it would be a failure.

Evan Nappen 04:22

And what’s interesting here, if you dig into this article, because they don’t want to make a big deal, you see, about just how bad the Brady Center acted in this regard. But if you dig down, you’ll find where it actually says, deep in it, that the Phillipses 2014 lawsuit, this is quoting direct from the article, was Page – 2 – of 8

brought in conjunction with and at the urging of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. . .” And it said the couple were pushing here to require businesses to take steps to prevent their products from being purchased by people who would use them in mass shootings. Oh, there you go. Yeah, how are they even going to do this. But anyway, that was their, supposedly, their laudable goal. Their optimistic, idealistic, pie in the sky, idea, and they’ll do it thru the tort system. So, they got sold this bill of goods. In the article, the Philipses say they trusted the Brady Center to have their back in the lawsuit, but they weren’t fully made aware of the financial consequences they faced before ultimately being forced to shoulder the defendants’ legal costs themselves.

Evan Nappen 05:50

You see Brady didn’t join in the lawsuit with them as a plaintiff. It was just these two. They were the only plaintiffs. And what’s really amazing is the article goes on, it says here that the judge overseeing the case apparently expected Brady to help the Philipses as well. It says, this is quoting from the judge, “It may be presumed that whatever hardship is imposed on the individual plaintiffs by these awards against them may be ameliorated by the sponsors of this action in their name. (Judge Richard P. Matsch wrote in a motion.)” Well, guess what? No such luck. Sorry, Judge. Brady ain’t paying for it. The folks who lost their daughter, who were convinced to bring this and who, as they say, weren’t advised as to the risks that were involved, they get to pay. They get to declare bankruptcy because they couldn’t afford to pay the costs and fees to the defendants. So, you know, this falls under the old adage of “F” around and find out. Because that’s exactly what happened to them.

Evan Nappen 07:20

Okay, here’s this law in Colorado, that says you can’t bring these actions, and then you bring the actions, and you lose. You’re responsible to pay attorneys fees and costs. But somehow, they thought this was still a great idea. Gee, I wonder if they were explained all the ramifications before they did this. Or do you think that Brady wanted to just go full steam ahead anyway, and got these folks as plaintiffs? And look what happened to them. Hey, this is the deal. And of course, the antis now want to repeal these protection laws. They want to repeal the ability to get attorneys fees and costs. But you know, what? Attorneys fees and costs are a significant aspect of dissuading folks from bringing lawsuits that never should be brought. And why should you have to pay to defend a lawsuit that should not have been brought? That you are, in fact, exonerated from? Why do you get stuck with your legal bills because some political organization wants to go after you and your industry by burying you in litigation? Shouldn’t you get attorneys fees when those efforts fail? I think loser pays is an excellent idea.

Evan Nappen 08:54

And if loser pays, not only in civil, loser pays should also exist in criminal, but it doesn’t. It doesn’t. If you get charged by the Government, you fight it out. You spend life savings, defending yourself, your reputation, the whole bit, and you get acquitted. Does the Government reimburse you for your fees? No. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Are you telling me that these attacks on gun owners, these horrible gun laws that you and I have discussed over and over again, these politically-motivated laws that have no impact on crime, that have these draconian penalties that screw over law-abiding citizens, where they face enormous amounts of state prison time that’s mandatory. They fight it, and they win it. But they can’t get reimbursed for their fight. And it shouldn’t be limited just to criminal actions. What about just licensing actions? The way New Jersey abuses the individual by putting hurdle after hurdle, and having Page – 3 – of 8

abuse of denials, that in my firm we win frequently, overturn these denial of Second Amendment rights. And yet New Jersey has no recourse for fees to be paid by the loser. The loser being the state of New Jersey. If the loser had to pay, if that issuing authority was responsible to pay your fees, you’d see a hell of a lot less of unjustified denials being made, that’s for sure, when they know that they’re responsible.

Evan Nappen 10:41

In other jurisdictions where they actually have that, such as New Hampshire, I actually had a case in New Hampshire where there was an unjustified denial of a carry license by the Chief. And that Chief had to personally pay, personally pay, the attorney’s fees for denying Second Amendment rights to my client. It’s why you don’t see too many issues like that in New Hampshire. If you’re going to deny, you better be solid in your basis for denial. You better really be justified because if you’re not and you lose, you can be responsible. But not in New Jersey, just the opposite. This is why you see so much abuse take place, folks. The abuse of the gun owner, the abuse of our Second Amendment rights, and anti-gun states have tried to stack it up. New Jersey even recently passed a law to try to get around the federal protection that the industry has from lawsuits, to try to couch it under Consumer Protection, and some other legal theory instead of in a whole entire department and through the Attorney General just to sue and go after gun companies and manufacturers, sellers all through America. So, they can export their tyranny, export it beyond Jersey, to the rest of America. Luckily, that law has already been enjoined with a nice win by NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation). So, this is what we see. This is part of the war on our rights.

Evan Nappen 12:30

And let me tell you, in terms of the war on our rights in Jersey, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. I’m proud that they are sponsor of Gun Lawyer. anjrpc.org. Go to their website. They have full-time paid lobbyists in Trenton. They’re fighting and sponsoring and currently litigating, and I might say successfully even in Federal Court, on the Carry Killer, Anti-Civil Rights bill. They’re litigating right now over assault weapons and magazines. They just had that case consolidated in Federal Court. They’re litigating in state court and a case my firm has even, MU. The MU case is challenging this arbitrary and vague, licensing denial of the, what we call the all-inclusive weasel clause. The catchall of so-called “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, whatever the hell that even means. We’re battling that out on constitutional grounds, and the Association is there. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs.

Evan Nappen 13:47

I want to tell you that not only when you join, you do a part of what every gun owner should become here, and that is helping in this fight. But you also get many great benefits from the Association. You get their news releases through email so you’re getting immediate, up to the moment, action news releases. You also get an outstanding printed newsletter. Let me tell you. One of the best printed newsletters on New Jersey gun rights in the state of New Jersey, and that is a member benefit. That publication keeping you informed is excellent. If you care about your gun rights, you need to get that and you need to read that. You also know that you’re part of the fight and helping to fund the battle for Second Amendment rights. So, please join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Do your part. Make sure you are a member. It’s the least you can do in New Jersey. Hey, when we get back, I Page – 4 – of 8

have some really interesting letters and some important information, particularly over questions that never end regarding concealed carry in New Jersey.

Speaker 3 15:23

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:38

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:52

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. Thank you for being a dedicated listener. Thank you for subscribing to this podcast, which is free. You can get the Gun Lawyer podcast anywhere you get your podcasts – Spotify, Apple, CBS, iHeart. You name it, and we’re there. Make sure you subscribe and listen as I give you the up to date info and heads up on legal issues. Things going on affecting our rights, left and right here. Of course, I have a focus on New Jersey, but not only New Jersey. New Jersey, you see, is a focal point for the battle on our gun rights. It’s like the front lines of our gun rights. Because New Jersey becomes the place where they test out all their wacky anti-gun laws, and then good people suffer. And I don’t want to see any of you suffer. My mission is to help every law-abiding gun owner in New Jersey not become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. Because that’s what gun laws do. They make you into a victim. The antis like to talk about victims of gun violence, gun violence victims, like there’s some distinction over the violence. It’s not gun violence. It’s criminal violence. But I’ll tell you what is gun specific. Gun laws, and honest, hardworking people, become victims of gun laws. Now that does distinguish out. New Jersey specializes in it. So, I don’t want to see you become a victim, and here’s some warnings and some important things to be aware of.

Evan Nappen 18:41

I’ve gotten a number of questions. First of all, one of the things we talked about last show was about Duty to Inform. There’s a Duty to Inform the officer if you have a carry permit and you’re stopped. I want to point out something interesting here. The Duty to Inform, and I meant to mention it last time, technically, the Duty to Inform does not take effect until July. That is true. However, the law for Duty to Inform has been codified and placed into the statues. So, if you go and look up on the New Jersey website, for example, where they list the New Jersey statutes, you’re going to see Duty to Inform law right there. If you go googling the newest versions of New Jersey law, you’re going to see the law that Page – 5 – of 8

says there’s a Duty to Inform, and you’re not going to see, you’re not going to see anything that says oh, this doesn’t take effect yet until July. Now legally, it’s true. It doesn’t take effect until July.

Evan Nappen 19:48

But the problem is, how are the police going to know this? How are the police going to know this when they simply look at the statutes putting it out as codified law already. If you want to know why it’s not in the statute, if you look at how the bill was written, anything that got put in the statute was either modifying an old statute, or it had to say New Section. But the last section that said when the dates were effective, didn’t say New Section, so it doesn’t get put into the codified laws. The only way you know is if you’re actually smart enough to dig into the chapter laws. But that’s not what law enforcement does. They’re not researching through chapter laws to find it. They’re just looking at the statutes. Oh, look, there’s Duty to Inform now. New law. There it is. It doesn’t say anything about when it takes place. And even though, sure, we could win. I’m confident over anyone charged, but I don’t think you want to be charged.

Evan Nappen 20:49

I also want to say that the problem in New Jersey is police are not used to individuals carrying guns. The mentality of New Jersey is going to be one of, why do you have a gun? And if you’re stopped, and you’re a law-abiding citizen, you have your carry permit, and you’re carrying your gun, and you don’t say you have a gun, and the officer sees the gun, I don’t want you inadvertently being injured or harmed. Having the officer take measures thinking you’re a threat. Just putting aside the legal requirement. If you’re lawfully carrying, and you have it on your person, and you’re in New Jersey, I’m just going to say from a practical point of view. If you get stopped by an officer, your safest course of action, honestly, is to let the officer know that you are lawfully carrying and that you have your permit. Because in July, that’s going to be required by law. Right now, it appears that it’s the law, even though technically, it’s not the law. But just putting aside the law. You don’t need to surprise that officer or yourself when he sees a gun on you that wasn’t brought to his attention upfront.

Evan Nappen 22:09

Think about it logically, folks. Keep your hands in plain view on the steering wheel and tell the officer about your carry gun. Normally, I get it. You want to keep your mouth shut about everything and not talk about anything, which is all good advice. But in this narrow situation when you’re a licensed carrier, and you’re in that stop, especially, you know, at night somewhere on a highway. Do you really want to risk your life over this going south because you didn’t want to tell them that you’re legal to be carrying? Try to use a little logic here, too. So, these are the things that are out there. Technically, it’s not in effect yet, but I’m going to tell you, as a practice, it’s your best bet. And if that’s your practice, and that’s what you set your mind to then come July you don’t even have to think about whether it’s July or June or August or May. You just have a practice in mind when you’re in New Jersey of how you’re going to act, and then you don’t get in trouble under the law. You stay protected and not a victim of any type of accident or inadvertent tragedy. Think about that.

Evan Nappen 23:31

Now, one of the letters I received here where I get lots of letters this is one that I think is of great interest from Paul, regarding defensive ammo. Hello Mr. Nappen. Can you tell me which ammo is legal Page – 6 – of 8

to carry? Hollow Point or Hornady critical defense ammo. This is a question we get a lot about what about hollow nose. What about defensive ammo when you carry with a carry license? The answer is that hollow nose is restricted in New Jersey and it’s narrowly restricted. You can have it at your home or place where you purchased it or at the range, but hollow nose itself you cannot carry even with a carry license outside of the exemptions. Now, that’s stupid I know. Why do they want high penetration ammo on the street? Because the dummies that passed this law don’t know anything about guns or ballistics, and they have this mythology in their mind. Oh, it goes in you know a small hole and comes out the size of a five-gallon bucket. Just idiotic crap that runs through their head. But we know the truth is that a hollow nose is very effective because it delivers the energy transfer to the intended target, and you can avoid over penetration issues. But that’s not of concern to the Legislature. So, you do not want to carry hollow nose.

Evan Nappen 25:13

Now with the ammo registration, they are even marking, even though the law didn’t call for it, they’re even denoting when you get registered of your purchase whether you’ve purchased hollow nose ammunition or not. I want to point out that the State Police, on their website where it has a firearm FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), right there. It has an FAQ, and Question number 13 says, “I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?” Then the State Police say: Yes. It’s legal to purchase and possess in your home, as we just discussed. They’re also legal to use at a gun range, again, as we discussed. You can travel with them to and from such places. Yeah, that’s all true. But then it says, and I think you’ll like this. “Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball/Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler, Inc. Defense Ammunition.” That is directly from the State Police website. https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

Evan Nappen 26:43

That ammunition, Critical Defense / Critical Duty, PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Defense ammo are not hollow nose and are not under the prohibition even though they may perform similar to how a hollow nose performs. You have a statement from the State Police to this effect. Now let me just say I had a very famous case on this. Roosevelt Twyne was his name, and Roosevelt was charged, a security guard, and guess what he had? Hornaday ammo. He had that Critical Defense ammo, and he got charged, even though he had a carry license, with hollow nose possession. Charged with the very thing that the State Police say. We won for him, and we were able to show precisely that the State Police said that they themselves say it’s legal, but it still took a fight. So, even though Number 13 here says it’s okay, and I understand the desire to have it, you still need to know that there may be some risks because again, the Police aren’t educated in the gun laws, and what things are not lawful. They look at statutes and say, oh, this looks like that. So, they charge you.

Evan Nappen 28:09

If you’re going to carry any of these rounds, I would suggest you go to the FAQ of State Police website and download Question 13. Keep it in the car with you. Keep it in your pocket, if you’re carrying this ammo. Because if it’s ever a question, you can take it out and say, look, this is right from the State Police website, and it’s legal right here. Boom. So that’s something you could find helpful. Like I said, Page – 7 – of 8

I’ve had cases of literally arrests being made, even though my client is completely innocent, and then we fight it out. And it isn’t just about hollow nose. I see false charges all the time. False charges on what’s an assault firearm. False charges because they don’t know what exemptions are. False charges. It’s just an overwhelming amount of false and wrong charges being made against honest gunners. Why? Because New Jersey’s law is so convoluted, so confusing, so ridiculous, that law enforcement themselves can’t even wrap their mind around it and get it straight. So, it’s arrest the folks and ask questions later. Even when they call the prosecutor, the prosecutors, the duty prosecutors, they don’t know. They don’t know. They haven’t studied this the way gun owners have studied it. Gun owners often know the law better than law enforcement. Most of the time, frankly, is when I see it most of the time. They know it better, but that won’t stop you from being arrested. So, take precautions.

Evan Nappen 29:59

One of the other issues I’m seeing a lot of is we’re getting a lot of questions about carry permits issued out of Monmouth County. Judge (Joseph W. ) Oxley has issued numerous carry permits now, and they contain this bizarre, quasi-restriction language on the back of the permit. This is on your carry permit now. “Restricted from carrying in any place prohibited by federal, state, or local law . . .” Okay, so what? That’s a big duh. Of course, you’re prohibited from carrying where it’s restricted and prohibited from carrying. Why do you even have to state it? But it states it, and that’s not the problem. The problem is the next part, “and shall comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A., 2C:39-6(g).” Well, 2C:39-6(g) has to do with the transport of firearms. Transport of firearms under 39-6(g) says that firearms shall be carried, unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, a gun box securely tied, packaged or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

Evan Nappen 31:29

Well, that about wipes out the utilitarian value of having a carry license, doesn’t it? Now, the first part of this statute says, “Any weapon being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section . . .” and then it specifies the mode of carry. Well, those subsection are subsections of Exemptions. Those are the exemptions that if you don’t have a permit, you have to rely upon. Yet here’s a permit, that is saying you have to rely upon exemptions and a mode of carry. It’s utterly confusing. It makes absolutely no sense to put it there. All it’s doing is causing risk to the permit holder to be interpreted that even carrying in your vehicle, carrying anywhere outside of the exemptions. Because those exemptions, subsection e. is possession in your home or place of business and subsection f. includes the hunting or target range exemptions. If you’re outside of those, then it seems to imply right away, hey, you’re doing that and you have to have it cased, unloaded. But that’s not the point of the carry permit. Because a carry permit means you don’t need the exemptions. You’re exempt on the face of the statute. It’s creating havoc, and it’s just flat out stupid. Yet there it is.

Evan Nappen 33:07

Person after person has had this burden placed on their permit without any rhyme or reason or explanation. It doesn’t make sense, and it creates this ambiguity and uncertainty. And it flies in the face, by the way, of the Bruen decision, which makes it clear that these types of restrictions when you have a carry is you can carry public, public carry, that’s what’s protected. Now granted you can I have a permit Page – 8 – of 8

system, and that’s what we have. But once you have the permit, you cannot do this, and you want proof. Look at the injunction. What did the injunction enjoin? Vehicle, possession in a vehicle. New Jersey wanted to mandate that if you transport it in a vehicle, you have to have your gun locked and unloaded. But that’s a separate law from the 39-6(g) exemption that the Monmouth County permits are now trying to require on the folks that have been granted them. But of course, it accomplishes the same thing. It’s barring you from transporting, barring you from your vehicle, barring you unconstitutionally in the face of Bruen, and not one, but two injunctions in federal court dealing with this topic, though not specifically this statue that’s on the back of this permit. So, it is a problem.

Evan Nappen 34:38

If you have a permit such as this, where this language has been placed, they’re creating a risk to you and your ability to carry. There are basically three options that you have. Number one, you can voluntarily give up your carry permit and reapply for a new one. Thankfully judges are no longer the issuing authority, thank God, for just this kind of problem, and Chiefs cannot put restrictions on. When you get your Chief issued, or superintendent issued license, it will not have this nonsense on it. It cannot be placed on it. The new law, as bad as it is, at least got judges out of the permit business, who’ve been burning law-abiding citizens out of their gun rights, since the beginning of the carry license system 50-60 years ago. The second thing you could do is wait for your permit to expire. They last for two years. And when you get your new one, you’ll get a non-judge issued one, again, not having restrictions. And the third option is you can try to go back to court to get it changed. But that’s an expensive litigation proposition. You can do that, and we are doing that for some. But it’s a shame that, again, you can’t exercise your rights within the constraints of the Constitution and not have to deal with these issues. But there you go.

Evan Nappen 36:18

We’re in this transition period, and this is the last hurrah, I guess, of some judges here to mess with permit holders. But we’ve got to end this practice. The new law is in place, and eventually, every carry will be a straight carry. But those that applied prior to December 22, 2022, before the law took effect, the new law, they still are under the old system of the judge issuing and those folks tending to have all these problems. This is yet another example. This is why gun laws don’t protect the citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:16

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E122_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 121- Ammo Registration is Here!Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 121SUMMARY KEYWORDS

insurance, new jersey, ammunition, handgun ammunition, law, gun, mandates, state, purchase, handgun, ccw, required, gun laws, permit, carry permit, disclose, firearm, carry, lawyer, gun violence

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:22

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well guess what? Ammunition registration has come to New Jersey. That’s right, the law was passed a number of months ago, but now it is up and running. So, when you go to buy handgun ammunition in New Jersey, you’re going to be charged a transaction fee for one box of 20 twos of $1.50, and you’re going to get databased with your purchase and your personal information. Let me tell you about exactly how this works. By the way, the sponsor of our show is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. They are the foremost defender of gun rights in New Jersey, and they are the NRA state affiliate. They are working full-time trying to protect our rights and fight in the toughest anti-gun jurisdiction there is and that is New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 01:41

Now with this new law, when you go to the dealer you buy, like I said, even one box of .22s, the dealer is required to enter you into an electronic ammunition purchase database. Now this law itself can be found in the Criminal Code in New Jersey under NJS 2C:58-3.3a. This is specifically subsection a. What it mandates is the electronic reporting and record of transaction for sale, transfer, assignment, or disposition of handgun ammunition. This is the law. The State Police were required under this law to develop a program for retail dealers of handgun ammunition. So, that means they got to be a licensed retail dealer in New Jersey, because that’s what a retail dealer means under the law, to electronically report a record of any transaction involving sale, transfer, assignment, or disposition of handgun ammunition and the information related to that transaction. Now the law specifically says that the information shall include the date of the transaction, the name of the manufacturer, the caliber or gauge, gauge, that’s interesting, gauge, what handgun firing shotgun shells and I mean gauge not 410. That’s not a gauge. I missed the last 20-gauge, 12 gauge or 10 gauge handgun that was for sale. But anyway, it asks to record the gauge, or caliber and the quantity of ammunition sold or transferred. It needs to have the name, address, and date of birth of the purchaser; the identification used to establish the identity (of the purchaser) and any other information the superintendent may require.

Evan Nappen 03:53

So, what did the New Jersey State Police actually do with regard to this? Well, they created this electronic database that’s connected to the New Jersey NIC system. When a dealer is going to make the sale, they go on the web interface, and they click on. The first thing it asks is to put in your name and it does have a date of birth. Then it asks for the SBI number. Now where’s the SBI number? Well, Page – 2 – of 8

that’s on your Firearms ID Card. I guess you better have a Firearms ID Card or you’re not going to know your SBI number. If you have some an old Firearms ID Card, they didn’t even put SBI numbers on the old ones. Later, they finally started using them. Then it needs your residential address information, which is your street address and city and state and zip code. So, you’re going to plug all that in and that gets you registered in the database.

Evan Nappen 05:00

Then the ammunition information is as follows. The name of the manufacturer has to be entered by the dealer. Then it says ammunition type. Now this is interesting because, of course, it’s handgun (ammunition), but there’s a pulldown menu. Since only handgun ammunition is required to be registered, why do they have type for registration? Think about that. In other words, you know that their intention is to make all ammunition registered at one point. But for now, it’s handgun. Then it has the caliber, and it asks the quantity. The quantity has to be the number of rounds, folks. So, it’s not one box. It’s 50 rounds or 100 rounds. Then it also asks something that’s very interesting, because it’s not in the law that this needed to be asked. But they ask whether it’s hollow nose ammunition or not. They are distinguishing whether individuals have purchased hollow nose ammo or not. Now why they asked for that? I don’t know. It’s not required under the statute. Hollow nose ammunition can lawfully be purchased from the dealer and can be brought to the range or brought to your home. You’re allowed to possess it there. So, why are they distinguishing whether it’s hollow nose or not? I don’t know. But all that’s being databased on you. Then you’re being charged the extra $1.50.

Evan Nappen 06:43

So, this database simply databases you as an ammunition buyer, and the ammunition you purchase. But ammunition itself isn’t serial numbered or registered. And here’s the other thing about ammunition, it gets shot. So, if you use your ammunition, you may have been recorded for purchasing, but it doesn’t mean you still have it or nor would still have it. Because it’s like recording gasoline purchase for your car. Then you use it, and you buy more. I mean, it’s pretty ridiculous. Think about this database, all it is is intrusive. All it is is a database that you know is going to be used for some bad purpose eventually. To go at our rights. To be supplied in searches or whatever. The person is an ammunition purchaser. To look at quantities purchased over a time period. Yet, nothing about this exercise here, nothing, will have anything to do with fighting crime, with solving crime, with stopping crime. It has nothing whatsoever to do with criminals. Nothing. It is just databasing with intrusive information and charging a fee, of course, to create this database on law-abiding citizens. So that the government knows that you’re an ammo buyer. That’s it. It does nothing to actually address anything having to do with the criminal misuse of firearms, or the stopping of crime. It is ridiculous. Yet here we are having now to do this.

Evan Nappen 08:49

Folks, there’s another element to this that you need to be very much aware of because not only is it creating this database, and creating, if you will a beta of the database. In other words, this is just the first step. Because you know, they’re going to want to increase the information that they’re requesting. They’re going to probably have limitations at some point on the amount of ammunition individuals can buy. They’re going to look at the amount of ammo you buy, maybe use it to judge whether you should Page – 3 – of 8

have another permit or not, or whether you’re hoarding ammunition. Who knows what idiotic theories they’ll come up with to use this and abuse it.

Evan Nappen 09:36

But also, in this law and also this will come up in this registration is the following requirement. Listen to this, folks. Any transaction involving the sale, transfer, assignment, or disposition of 2,000 or more rounds of handgun ammunition and the information related to that transaction shall be immediately reported to the superintendent. In other words, if you purchase more than 2,000 rounds in one transaction, you’re getting investigated by the State Police for your purchase. So, folks, if you want to buy 4 bricks of .22s, you’re asking to be immediately reported to the State Police for this ammunition transfer to be investigated by them for this quantity purchase. That too, is in law. So, you need to be aware of this. This only applies, of course, to the purchase of ammunition in New Jersey from retail dealers.

Evan Nappen 10:55

Now, the problem is, it’s essentially going to close out online purchasing of ammunition from out of state. Because unless they’re a retail dealer, that person under New Jersey law, not an FFL under federal law, but a New Jersey retail dealer, they are not going to have access to the New Jersey computerized NIC system, which gives access to the database ammunition purchase requirement that has to be fulfilled for them to sell in New Jersey to New Jersey, or transfer to that New Jersey resident. So, I don’t see how any of the companies can lawfully sell handgun ammunition, online or mail order anymore, even though under federal law, it’s legal. But New Jersey I think is blocking it with this. Unless they’re going to allow if any company is even willing to do it, to become a New Jersey retail dealer outside the state of New Jersey, so that they can be licensed and regulated by the state of New Jersey, so they can have a retail dealer license, allowing them to sell ammunition so they can record the purchases, I doubt they’re going to go and do that. So, that’s a problematic issue.

Evan Nappen 12:24

Additionally, here, it talks about the retail dealers of handgun ammunition are required to do this. Now there is another law that had been on the books for a longer time than this, substantially longer, that required for the sale of handgun ammunition that a person have ID. This law came into effect in 2007, whereas this new law now is 2022. But since 2007, there has been a law in New Jersey that before someone can purchase handgun ammunition, they have to produce an (valid Firearms) ID Card or a Pistol Purchase Permit or a Carry License along with a current driver’s license. So, you have a dual identification requirement for the purchase of ammunition with your gun license and your driver’s license or other current government ID. That was one thing where the proof of your ID and then you could buy ammo, but it wasn’t registered. There was no fee. There was no electronic (registration). It was just identification purposes for that.

Evan Nappen 13:59

In that law, there was an exemption, an exemption that says nothing shall be construed to prohibit the de minimis amount of ammo, handgun ammo, at a firearms range. So, if you’re just selling ammunition for use at the gun range, you didn’t have to do this. They exempted it. Or at a rifle and pistol club etc. However, that exemption was on the old law, which is in a different section. They did not put that Page – 4 – of 8

exemption into the electronic database law. There is no de minimis range or pistol club exemption for handgun ammunition transfer there. So, it appears that even when you go to the range, you’re going to still have to do this intrusive databasing for your handgun purchase and pay the fee. I mean handgun ammunition purchase, and pay the fee for that ammunition purchase. Even though you’re just using it at the range, which becomes more of a pain in the neck, of course for the ranges. Now, unless the State Police or somebody issues some guidance saying no, the de minimis transfer at a range just like the old law still applies to the electronic. But technically that law, that electronic registration law, did not exempt like the other law did. So, when we come back, I have some great letters to Gun Lawyer with some excellent questions.

Speaker 3 15:44

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:58

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:13

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I appreciate your listening to the Gun Lawyer podcast very, very much. It’s an opportunity for me to help spread the word and the news about various gun laws and things taking place that the mainstream media does not like to see publicized. It’s a great way to get the word out to learn about these things and the inside information. I am particularly proud that our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, is fighting for our rights every day. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They are currently litigating on multiple fronts in federal court and state court on Second Amendment issues. Just recently, there has been action with the Association’s case in Association versus Plotkin where both the magazine ban and the assault firearm ban are being challenged in federal court for constitutionality under the Second Amendment. The Association is in litigation over the “Carry Killer, Anti-Civil Rights” bill right now as we speak. They’ve succeeded in getting injunctive relief in the form of a TRO. There is a lot more to come with the preliminary injunction hearing on that same legal action, and they’re making great progress there. They’re also involved in a state challenge actually in a case called MU, which is a case with my firm challenging the constitutionality of the licensing disqualifier for “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, and its unconstitutional nature that leaves it vague, subjective, and a violation, of course, of our Second Amendment rights. The Association is there helping to fight these cases and to Page – 5 – of 8

defend our rights in the toughest environment in the United States. That is the state of New Jersey. So please join the Association. Make sure you’re a member. Go to anjrpc.org and join your state association.

Evan Nappen 19:54

Now I have a letter here from Robert and what Robert says is regarding NJ CCW liability insurance coverage. Now CCW seems to be a term for “Concealed Carry Weapon” that is out there in the ether that gun people use. But in New Jersey, we don’t have a CCW. What we have is a PTC, a Permit To Carry. Now it so happens that our Permit To Carry does require that it be concealed. But it’s not a weapon permit. It’s a handgun permit. Some states have Concealed Weapon Permits that go beyond simply firearms. New Jersey limits it strictly to handguns. It’s a Permit To Carry, so we prefer to use PTC. But I totally understand what Robert is asking about, and I’m sure you do, too. And that’s regarding NJ CCW liability insurance and says Evan, your podcasts are invaluable. I’ve taken one of your seminars a few years ago, and you made a lot of confusing laws extremely understandable. Well, he must have caught me on a good day then. Let me tell you. My question is I’m having a difficult time securing liability insurance for my NJ CCW. It seems the standard insurance companies, USCCA, CCWSAFE, etc. are not offering in New Jersey. Do you know of any insurance companies for NJ?

Evan Nappen 21:32

Thank you, Bob. Well, here’s the deal, Bob. You’re right, and this is quite an interesting situation. You see, under Murphy’s Carry Killer Anti-Civil Rights bill, one of the things that he put in there was a requirement to have insurance if you have a permit to carry. Now, this does not kick in until July (2023). So, it does not become effective until July. If you have a carry permit, now, you do not need to get this insurance. But I understand that folks want to be pre-emptive. They want to get the insurance before, and frankly, having insurance itself isn’t a bad idea. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of having insurance. It’s a good idea. So, in that regard, it’s fine. But what really isn’t fine is when it’s mandated by the Government, which is what the Carry Killer Anti-Civil Rights bill does. It requires us to have certain limits and have certain structure to what they are mandated to insure. And that’s where the problem comes in. It is my understanding that there is no major insurance company that can actually write the insurance, the way the insurance companies are interpreting this law that New Jersey requires. I know that U.S. Law Shield, for which I’m an Independent Program Attorney, I know that US Law Shield has looked into this as well. None of the major insurance companies can do it because they believe that it mandates that insurers ensure intentional acts. And insurance does not apply to intentional acts. Insurance is for accidents, for negligence; not for something intentionally done.

Evan Nappen 23:36

What makes this even more ironic and crazy is that a number of years ago, Governor Murphy made a big hoopla from his office, announcing that he’s prohibiting the insurance that gun owners wanted to get from USCCA, Carry Guard, etc. This was simply insurance that covered you if you needed defense in a legal action, because you used your gun in self-defense. It was not liability-type insurance where there were judgments or things that could get paid, but it was a legal services type of insurance. Murphy banned these from New Jersey by Executive Order and called them “murder insurance”. He said, we’re not going to have murder insurance in New Jersey. Now it so happens that U.S. Law Shield was not insurance but a member organization. Not an insurance company type deal. U.S. Law Shield had Page – 6 – of 8

already gotten approval through the banking and insurance commission as not being insurance, and they were allowed to still continue to operate because they weren’t insurance. But the other companies were forced to leave because Murphy banned murder insurance, which of course, none of it was murder insurance.

Evan Nappen 25:15

But now, lo and behold, he signs his Carry Killer Anti-Civil Rights bill, and in it is an insurance requirement that mandates that you have insurance that covers intentional acts. In other words, he’s mandating that you get actual murder insurance now. That’s what he’s looking to have you insured for – actual murder, which is not the case for what insurance companies would normally ever insure. They don’t insure nor sell, “murder insurance”, intentional acts. This is something that are exclusions in insurance policies. So, unless something gets worked out with the Insurance Commission, the insurance companies, and it gets figured out what type of insurance can actually be made by these companies that can actually fulfill whatever this law is requiring, we’re not going to see any insurance. And that’s why there is no insurance available now that actually meets the bill. Now, I have heard that there are some companies claiming this, but in fact, they have exclusions and nothing in writing that says this, in fact, covers it, because I don’t believe it does. I know that these other companies have been trying to provide a product to meet it and can’t. So, if anyone claims to have such a product, I’d be highly skeptical. Because these other major companies that deal specifically with gun owners cannot get this product out there. So, beware. It is something that is fraught with peril, shall we say.

Evan Nappen 27:02

Now, there is one good news about and that is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs in their litigation, in their challenge to the Carry Killer, Anti-Civil Rights bill, is challenging the provision that mandates the insurance. So, we will have a preliminary injunctive hearing prior, well prior, to July, where we may, in fact, see that the requirement for insurance is found to be unconstitutional anyway. So, don’t go fretting about this just yet. Because it doesn’t take effect till July, and I believe there’s a very reasonable chance of success here for us in defeating this requirement. Because think about it, they’re requiring insurance. The Government is mandating insurance for you to exercise a right, a right equivalent to the First Amendment rights, such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Do you think it would be okay if the government mandated that you have insurance before you pray in church? Or that you need to have insurance before you do a letter to the editor? Do you think that’s okay? No, of course it isn’t. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is in the same level as a First Amendment rights as per Justice Thomas in the Bruen decision. Therefore, I think there’s a good chance that the insurance mandate will not be upheld. So, let’s see what happens. But until then, getting some insurance that meets these criteria is highly unlikely. But let’s just say we do win as I suspect we will. It’s not a terrible idea to get insurance, just generally speaking, for firearm carry, etc. Those products I believe will be out there that you could get that just are not “murder insurance”, but actual insurance for the law-abiding carrier of a handgun.

Evan Nappen 29:22

Okay, I got another great letter here. This letter is from Yuri, and Yuri says: Dear Mr. Nappen, I have a question about how to handle a traffic stop by police when traveling between the gun club and home. This is not a CCW question. Here we go that CCW stuff again, but that’s okay. Just an FPIC holder Page – 7 – of 8

driving to and from his gun club. I’m always careful when driving during these trips. Rifles and pistols are in a locked case. Ammo is in a separate locked case. No hollow point ammo of any kind. Targets and gun cases are covered with blankets in a minivan. That’s good because plain view of a gun case is probable cause for a search. You want to keep your gun cases covered. Besides the commonsense things to do during a traffic stop, front windows down, engines off, and hands on the wheel. Do I inform the police officer that I’m a New Jersey FPIC holder, that I have guns in my van, and I’m traveling to the gun club without any route deviations? I’m a great fan of yours. Have all your books, studied the section on page 255, but he didn’t find the answer to this question. I’m 72 years old, retired. Member of U.S Law Shield, NRA ANJRPC and CJRPC, which is Central Jersey Rifle and Pistol Club.

Evan Nappen 30:49

Well, Yuri, I appreciate your being a fan and trying to stay on top of all this. Let me give you some specific answers to your questions. First of all, in New Jersey for folks that have a carry permit, a handgun carry permit, if you are stopped, you have a duty to disclose whether in a motor vehicle or in public. You have to immediately tell the officer that you have a handgun, even if it’s in a box, in the car, in a case in the car, or loaded on your person, even if it’s unloaded and in the box, or loaded on your person. If you’re a carry permit holder, there is a duty to inform the officer. Failure to do so is a crime in the Fourth Degree – up to 18 months in State Prison. You must also produce your carry permit, and if you fail to produce that, it’s a misdemeanor, what Jersey calls a disorderly persons offense. Now that is for folks with a permit to carry that have a handgun in the car, either loaded or unloaded. They must disclose it to the police.

Evan Nappen 32:03

But if you do not have a carry permit, then you do not have a duty to disclose. Yes, that’s actually true. So, as long as you don’t have a carry permit, you do not have to tell the officer that you have a gun in the car or a gun in a box, or even a gun on your person, which you shouldn’t have on your person. Not only do you not have a duty to disclose that, but also you have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination to not disclose that. As far as other guns, as Yuri asked, about long arms – rifles, shotguns – no, you have no duty to disclose that you are transporting rifles or shotguns, that you’re transporting firearms at all. As a matter of fact, you should say nothing about having guns in the car, guns being transported or where you’re going. Because all that does is escalate the situation to seeing your gun, searching for your guns, and then charging you with possessing your gun so that you have the burden of proving your innocence, which is how New Jersey has structured their gun laws. So, absolutely do not disclose that you have a firearm of any type or any sort in the car unless you are a holder of a Permit To Carry. Because then, you’re required to disclose that you have that handgun on you and to show your permit. That is New Jersey’s law, in a nutshell. It makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it, folks? Good grief.

Evan Nappen 33:37

Anyway, I appreciate your great questions, folks. And I want to thank you for being listeners. It’s this kind of information, where it’s so contradictory and so counterintuitive, and so just absurd and ridiculous, that I can straighten it out on the show. I’m happy to do it and it helps make all of us safer, and not become victims of New Jersey gun law. You’ll hear the antis talk all the time about victims of gun violence, which is a load of crap because it’s not gun violence. It’s criminal violence. I happen to be pro-gun violence. Just the right gun violence.

In other words, if some bad guy is threatening myself or my family with deadly, deadly force, and I am justified in using my firearm, guess what I’m using on him? Gun violence. That’s right. And I’m for it. That’s when you need it. So, it’s not about gun violence. But I’ll tell you what you never hear about. You never hear about victims of gun laws, not victims of gun violence. Victims of gun laws. That’s what Jersey does. It makes victims out of their gun laws. I don’t want to see any of you become a victim. Same with our great sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 35:28

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E121_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 120- How’s The War Going?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 120SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, law, gun, gun rights, permit, carry, rights, issued, fighting, marijuana, restrictions, war, gun laws, judges, court, anti, lawyer, battle, case, gun owners

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:22

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I’ve been thinking about current events and guns, and I kind of realized that there is a really good analogy. There’s really a war on us. A war on gun owners. A war on our rights. A war on guns. And this war is fascinating to see because I have news for you, we are actually winning the war. The war isn’t won yet, that’s for sure. But we are winning battle after battle. And it is really a fascinating time to be alive when talking about and thinking about gun rights. Because if you think about the struggle that we’ve had as gun owners through the years, and I’ve been practicing gun law for over 35 years. When I started, we didn’t have any kind of Second Amendment case law that we could use. We were always the most unbelievable of underdogs. Granted, a war was going on there, but it didn’t have the same intensity. Because as we fought hard for our rights, the antis ended up getting major billionaires supporting their causes and setting up all kinds of well-funded, left-wing, anti-gun groups and pursuing strategies and getting basically the Democrats for the most part to make this issue a part of their platform and selling them on pushing gun laws and the seizing of our gun rights. The destruction of us and our gun rights is good politics for them.

Evan Nappen 02:38

So, we’ve been fighting this battle, and it really is a war as a multitude of battles on a multitude of fronts. I realize what my position is here, and yes, I’m fighting these gun laws. I’m on the front lines, many times, fighting the gun laws and defending law-abiding citizens from being turned into criminals. It’s similar and is important, just like our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs has been there defending gun owners in New Jersey for years and years. You need to join the Association. You need to protect yourself and be part of the movement and be part of these forces that are fighting on your side. But I realized that through this battle, and as we’re making this progress, it’s actually through the war of multiple, multiple battles, that what I primarily try to do is make sure that as we fight and win these battles, that you, the listener, do not become a casualty in the war.

Evan Nappen 03:55

We’re going to win this war. We’re winning it battle by battle now. We’re going to win it. But in the process of fighting to win, I want to see as few of you become a casualty of the war on our Second Amendment rights. So, what Gun Lawyer is really about is helping you not become a casualty in the war on our rights, and in fact, be able to protect yourself and survive this. So that when we have our ultimate victory, you are there to celebrate it and exercise your rights like never before, and therefore Page – 2 – of 8

have them preserved for future generations. That’s really what wars do, isn’t it? Especially when you win them. You’re preserving that way of life, that culture, that freedom, and those liberties for yourself and future generations. It’s really what we’re in.

Evan Nappen 04:58

So, if you look at the state of the war is now on our rights, you see that we had a tremendous victory with the Bruen decision. Actually, a trifecta of victories from Heller to McDonald, and to Bruen. Creating what has become our defense system, our Iron Dome, if you will, against our enemies. In response to our Iron Dome being created of the Second Amendment and Constitutional rights, our enemies have decided to launch mega amounts of missiles at us. Just launch rocket after rocket after rocket. Because after Bruen, particularly, we’ve seen an enormous increase in anti-gun laws being passed. Yet, just like a great Patriot missile system, we keep knocking out their missiles and their rockets. They fire at us, and we blow them away. We are blowing them away in such greater volume than we ever had, and that is something that makes me cheer. Because as I sit back, I see gun laws falling, case law, courts deciding our way. As we’re fighting, gaining ground, more ground, just like in a war, it is incredibly encouraging. In a very weird way, but true. These are glorious times. They’re glorious times because we’re fighting battle after battle that is so worth it.

Evan Nappen 07:03

And what’s really funny is if you think about the anti-gun strategy, they’re fools. They really are fools. Because of their multiple launches of law after law that they’re passing, like petulant children, like just, you know, cannot wrap their mind around and accept that, yes, we have these rights. We have the right to defend ourselves. We have a right to carry. We have a right to have a firearm. We have these rights. They can’t stand it, and their response is bad gun law after bad gun law after bad gun law launching and what do we do? We fight back, and we get court victory after court victory in the fight. And you know what’s really funny is that each one of these issues as we get the case law built and we have ultimately, a conservative Supreme Court now, that will eventually get many of these issues. Our ability to build an impenetrable system for our rights, through the Supreme Court, is being handed to us by the aggressive war on our rights by the anti-gunners.

Evan Nappen 08:19

So, it’s ironic as well, because their onslaught of magazine bans, assault weapon bans, pistol brace bans, and trying to gut concealed carry by enormous numbers of insane sensitive places. Every strategy they can come up with. Registration and multiple disqualifiers to just try to chip away at individuals. Every one of them is making caselaw, and we’re winning battle after battle. All of this is heading eventually to the conservative (United States ) Supreme Court. We will end up with such a body of case law, affirming our rights, that it’s going to be great for future generations. We’re going to, thanks to the anti-gunners making all these moves now, we can establish strength to the Second Amendment, like never before. And we’re doing it now. So, when you hear about all this stuff, these bad laws, these idiots, the crap that they pass, make sure you tell yourself, but wait a minute. There’s actually a positive side to this. The positive side is that it’s now a chance, the best chance, to destroy their efforts, destroy those missiles launched at us, and to win this war for good.

Evan Nappen 10:00 Page – 3 – of 8

I just wanted to share those thoughts with you, as well as some letters from great listeners that have some important questions that I want to share with you. Let’s start here with a letter from Stephen. Stephen asks, regarding gun purchase background check and medical cannabis card. Evan, I obtained a medical cannabis card, and I sent it back requesting to abandon the card and be removed from the program. I feel that if I purchase a firearm, I will not clear the background check. Or if I apply for a handgun permit, I will fail the background check. Do you have any advice for me? And in fact, I do.

Evan Nappen 10:54

As we’re talking about winning battles and you may recall that we actually coined the phrase on this show, Bang or Bong, you can’t have both. And that’s because the marijuana law, federally marijuana is still banned. It is still prohibited. And you know, the states that deal in marijuana are like the largest drug dealers in America, against federal drug laws. It’s just a fact. They’re illegally selling marijuana, contrary to federal law. Now the feds are turning the other, you know, turning the other way, not looking at it, ignoring it, and letting it take place. I understand that. But they didn’t change the gun law portion of it. And because it’s still banned federally and it’s still asked on the federal form, it’s still a disqualifier for those that are users of marijuana. Even though you have a medical card or even though your state has legalized marijuana, it is still illegal. Now recently, there’s been a case where it was decided, in a federal case, that said, marijuana is not a disqualifier and cannot be a disqualifier. It found the marijuana disqualification unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 12:18

Now that case is not binding law in all of America. But it is yet another battle won in the war on our rights, because it is eliminating yet another disqualifier stopping people from exercising their rights. But that case still has to travel through the Appellate Courts, and maybe it’ll end up at the (United States ) Supreme Court so it can have universal application here in America. But it is a great battle won in the war. It is a demonstration of the power of our new Iron Dome of Heller, Alito, and Bruen. The test for constitutionality is taking out a disqualifier like that, and it is extremely encouraging. But at the moment, there’s still the federal ban. By giving up your cannabis card, you are relieving yourself of having a per se admission to being a user of marijuana. And by sending it back and no longer being part of the program, you are no longer a user. Now some folks suggest waiting a year after surrendering it if you’ve had a possession charge. Even though that’s doesn’t necessarily mean you’re using, but again, waiting a year. That’s the rule of thumb on being freed from the claim of a marijuana disqualifier. But in essence, you’ve given up the card and you’re no longer a user, then you’re no longer disqualified as a user. And so that’s a good thing.

Evan Nappen 14:05

But as we progress here, we’re seeing that not only about those steps, but the disqualifier itself has already taken a hit in one battle. And hopefully we will see the end of that as a disqualifier in the United States. I mean, it’s really pretty foolish when you think about it. When you have these states that are selling marijuana, recreationally and medically, all over the place, and the feds aren’t enforcing it on the states. Even though it’s directly a violation of the federal drug laws. And yet, they will try to use it against gun owners. It’s just stupid. It’s time. You know, let’s keep it consistent, folks. If you’re going to ignore it, then it’s time to remove it from the federal schedule, and it’s time to no longer make it a disqualifier. But politically and legislatively, that doesn’t seem to want to get done. So, the courts have Page – 4 – of 8

stepped in, and it’s looking better and better to have court-mandated solutions to it. Hey, when we come back, I have some other great letters in the Ask Evan for Gun Lawyer that I want to share with you.

Speaker 3 15:30

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:44

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:59

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen and thank you for being a listener and for subscribing to Gun Lawyer. We are one of the highest-rated gun podcasts that are out there, and it’s because of you. I love speaking with you and filling you in on all kinds of great, important, useful information. Of course, helping to make this possible is our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, the NRA affiliate for New Jersey. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs does great work. They’re currently involved in multiple litigations, fighting for our gun rights. Not the least of which is going after the Murphy “Carry Killer / Anti-Civil Rights” law and trying to fight and challenge the magazine ban, the assault firearm ban, and the licensing criteria. That is part of what is the MU case, which is a case that my firm actually brought, challenging the catchall, subjective clause, for denying individuals their gun rights. The so-called “not in the interest of public health, safety and welfare”. The Association is also there on your behalf lobbying, with a full-time lobbyist in Trenton. You really need to be a member of the Association. By doing so, you can get email alerts, be on top of the hottest news, the changes and the challenges, and to be a part of this side of gun rights in the war. You want to be a part in this war. You don’t want to be a casualty. You want to be a fighter, and you want to be part of it. Join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. anjrpc.org

Evan Nappen 19:01

I have a letter here from Bobby. Bobby says, Regarding concealed carry and medical emergencies. A person with a PTC (Permit to Carry a Handgun) is carrying his firearm and is involved in a motor vehicle accident or experiences a medical emergency and needs to be transported to the hospital in an ambulance. What should he do with his firearm? Probably not a good idea to arrive in the emergency room with a firearm strapped on your hip. What would happen then? He can’t legally transfer Page – 5 – of 8

possession to anyone else (spouse, coworker, family member etc.). Should he report the situation to a police officer that responded to the emergency and ask him to secure his firearm for him. Will this lead to issues in getting it returned when he’s discharged from the hospital? What do you recommend?

Evan Nappen 19:49

Okay, we’ve had these cases where individuals are in an accident and actually knocked out, unconscious. They come into the hospital and the hospital uncovers firearms on a person, and the hospital themselves have protocols when this happens. They will secure the firearm and have law enforcement get involved. So, if you’re unconscious and your gun is there at the hospital, you’re not the first person to be taken to the hospital with a firearm on their person. They have protocols to deal with it. Now, if you are in fact conscious but still need to go there, then one of the things is, of course, to have the lockbox in your car. You can unload your firearm and secure it in the lockbox and have that lockbox secured around the base of your seat, etc. So that it’s locked and secured and out of view. Therefore, you’ve been prudent and have properly secured your firearm. If the police are involved and it’s an emergency, you can tell the police and ask the police what to do. They will probably take your firearm into possession. And yes, you’ll have to get it back. They might try to give you a hard time, but normally they don’t.

Evan Nappen 21:04

Because the fact is you had an emergency, you’re going to the hospital, you wanted it to be secured, you did the right thing, and it’s time to get your property back. You didn’t break the law in any way. You were simply having a medical emergency. So, it’s not something that you need to really worry about in that regard. It’s something that I’ve dealt with, as an attorney, getting firearms returned for folks that have had medical emergencies and had to be taken to the hospital. Especially if you’re unconscious, obviously, you’re not guilty of committing any kind of crime or going into a sensitive place like a hospital. You don’t even know you’re being taken there. But if you do know and you do realize it, then you need to take the steps so that you don’t end up having that problem. The best would be to turn it over to law enforcement or to properly secure it. You should always have the ability to do that in your vehicle. You shouldn’t be traveling in a vehicle with a firearm and not be able to secure it in a gun safe of type. Because you never know when you may need to leave your car, and it may be a situation where you cannot take your firearm with you. Particularly in New Jersey, the law makes a specific proviso for securing your unloaded firearm in a locked container in your vehicle.

Evan Nappen 22:43

Now John sends a letter, and he says, hello Evan! I’m a big fan of your podcast and it’s amazing what you’re doing for our 2A rights. I just received my PTC which had some restrictions listed on the back of it. Judge Oxley from Monmouth County Superior Court issued me a Permit to Carry a Handgun in January. On my permit, a restriction was placed on it that says I must comply with the provisions of NJS 2C:39-6.(g) which places restrictions on how the firearm needs to be transported. As I understand, essentially restricting carry ability on my person in my personal vehicle, essentially making my CCW useless. My permit did not come with a court order. No other restrictions and no “checkbox” under “see below” where it says restrictions. And that’s where it lists none or see below or see court order. Actually, no box happened to be checked. But then it does say restricted from carry in any place prohibited by federal, state, or local law and shall comply with the provisions of NJS 2C:39-6(g). As I Page – 6 – of 8

understand it, all new permits are being issued by a Chief of Police without such restriction. So it seems my permit was processed in the middle of the rules and procedures change. In light of the new TROs, do I have to comply with these restrictions? Is there any way to get my permit reissued by my local PD? Thanks in advance if this is something I need to schedule or pay, let me know etc.

Evan Nappen 24:29

Okay, let me explain what happened here. Under the old law where judges were involved, judges did judge things. And part of the judge things that judges do and that they were doing is they were doing anti-gun efforts on our ability to carry. Part of their anti-gun efforts were creating restrictions and such through their judicial power. Now many of these restrictions are unconstitutional. They were not proper. When the new law passed that statutetized the restrictions that many judges were putting on and more, that law became subject to litigation in which certain portions have been temporarily restrained. There’s going to be more restraints by way of the preliminary injunction. I’m confident in seeing that. Yet here in the middle of this process, this individual, John here, ended up unfortunately, getting a judge-issued permit that puts this element into it that shouldn’t be there, because the vehicle carry requirement under the law has been restrained by a judge saying it’s not essentially Constitutional. And that having to lock up your firearm while in your vehicle is restrained under that statute.

Evan Nappen 25:50

But here with John, we have a Court that has issued this license, and this is kind of a very confusing statement here. The first part is about not carrying in any restricted prohibited place, federal, state, or local law. Well, that’s just a big duh, isn’t it? The judge has to tell you, you’re restricted from carrying in places where you’re prohibited from carrying. Isn’t that because you’re prohibited from carrying? You know, wow. But no, he felt obliged to have to mention that to you. Why? I don’t know, because the law is the law. He also didn’t put on there, the entire criminal code for you to follow either because it’s the law. You don’t have to list it. But there it is, and then adds in these provisions of 2C:39-6(g) which are restrictions on the mode of transport. Now 39-6(g) exemptions go to the exemptions under 39-6, such as transport to the range, transport between your homes or moving or going to the target range or going hunting. Then it references in those exemptions 39-6(g), which is a mode of transport, that does require your firearm to be unloaded and then either in a locked, actually not locked, it actually says in a closed fastened container unloaded or in a gun box or secure wrapper or locked in the trunk of your automobile.

Evan Nappen 27:27

The new law for vehicle carry that was enjoined, mandated that it be in a lockbox. Now 39-6(g) doesn’t mandate a lockbox, but it does mandate that it be unloaded. It’s completely screwed up to even put this on a carry permit, and just creates enormous confusion. It’s also got a lot of ambiguity going forward. But here’s the bottom line. The bottom line is there’s an argument that could be made that if you’re not within the provision of 39-6(g) when transporting, then you’re in violation of the restriction even though your license isn’t marked restricted. This license is Court issued. So is the court issuing of a license, a judicial act itself, that could be construed as a Court Order, because it is signed by a judge. And if it’s a court order, you cannot violate a court order, because you can be held in contempt of the order. This should not be there. It’s wrong to be there. You’re allowed to have it in your vehicle under the law, because that’s been enjoined. Page – 7 – of 8

Evan Nappen 28:32

So really, what needs to be done here is either obey it, so you don’t get into trouble, or you can go back to the Court and ask the Court to remove it, and to conform its language with the current legal situation in federal court, with the current new law that’s been enjoined, that allows vehicle carry and to ask that it be amended thusly, by removing the language of comply with provisions of NJS 2C:39-6(g). The other thing that can be done is you can wait it out. Then when you apply to get your new permit, because the permit only lasts for two years, from your chief. Chiefs have no authority to put restrictions. All the permits issued by Chiefs are unrestricted. It is just great that judges are no longer the issuing authority for just this reason. Remember, the problem of “justifiable need” was created by the judges about 50 years ago. The judges created the impossible to achieve tests. It’s been judges that have stood in the way of our rights. Not enhanced them or protected them like you would think they would do. Here’s yet another example of rights being restricted, completely contrary to what our understanding is under Bruen, and even what is expressed by way of the federal law. Yet, there it is. There it is. And ignoring it could be at your peril. The other thing that could be a possibility would be to surrender, voluntarily surrender, your carry license that you have now and then reapply now through the Chief. Then you would get a Chief-issued license with no restrictions. That, too, is an option. I understand that none of it is ideal. But this is a transition period of getting judges out of the permit business. And unfortunately, it has to be dealt with by individuals such as yourself in the war on our gun rights. This is yet another battle. But thanks for the letter, John. I understand your frustration.

Evan Nappen 30:54

I have another letter here. Regarding PTC and again, what does it say? He’s got a restricted license, as well. This one is regarding the restriction that says about the qualification of his handgun. His handgun is listed as the one he qualified with, and the question is, can he only carry that or any handgun that he owns? The law right in 2C:58-4, right in the carry law, in the first paragraph says one permit shall be good for all handguns. It says it flat out. And what do we have this other court doing? This court is ignoring it and putting one gun on and creating a situation where it appears that you’re only entitled to carry the one gun that they placed on the permit. It’s not clear, and you’re taking a risk if you carry some other gun. Basically, what you need to do here, in my opinion, is play it safe. Carry the one gun that you’re allowed to carry. When your permit expires, after two years, you’ll get one issued by the Chief of Police, and under that, it will not have any restrictions. That is how to handle it. But you can see, folks, how judges are constantly screwing up the system. They’re going against our rights and creating havoc in this way. And that is why one of the greatest things about that horrible “Carry Killer” law, the anti-Civil Rights bill is that it removed judges from being issuing authorities. In that regard, we have made significant progress. But until then, here’s yet another victim of a judge limiting rights without legal basis. Unfortunately, this is the current situation, and the solutions are how I have outlined them.

Evan Nappen 33:08

Folks, I want to remind you that this fight is continuing. The war is continuing, and it is critical that we understand where we are now. I don’t want to see any of you ever become a casualty. But take heart and know that we’re winning battle after battle, and the future has never looked so good for our Second Amendment rights. Please join ANJRPC. Please make sure you belong and that you’re part of this fight Page – 8 – of 8

and can stay informed as to the latest issues. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens, and boy, I wish the judges would get that through their heads. Till next time.

Speaker 3 34:09

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E120_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 119- Jersey Carry UpdateAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 119SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, sbr, gun, prohibited, brace, places, pistol, litigation, state, blocked, new jersey, law, short barrel rifle, carry, court, protect, possess, preliminary injunction, lawyer, atf

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:20

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, these sure are exciting times that we’re living in. As I’m sure you’ve been following, we’ve had tremendous successes in the litigations that have been ongoing against Murphy’s onslaught against our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. The Governor is spearheading the anti-civil rights bills that are focused on destroying Constitutional rights, particularly the Second Amendment. Just recently I am happy to say that his Industry-Killer Bill, which was designed to allow abuse through the civil system by way of the Attorney General being able to sue gun companies all over America and anyone associated with firearm manufacturing, etc, and go at them under this guise of consumer safety, etc. This whole gambit has been granted a preliminary injunction against that law taking place. That’s one of their main missions there. To become a national destroyer of firearm rights for the country not just for New Jerseyans, and to eliminate the right for all Americans throughout the country. It has now been the recipient of a preliminary injunction, and congratulations are due to those folks in gaining that preliminary injunction.

Evan Nappen 02:08

At the same time, the New Jersey Carry Killer bill, which was and still is a bill designed to limit and destroy our ability to no longer be victims, but instead to become defenders against violent criminals. Of course, as soon as the Court in the Bruen decision came out with their ruling and the great Justice Thomas’ opinion, empowering and putting teeth into the Second Amendment and our ability to carry a firearm outside the home, the most effective means of self-defense, and be able to defend ourselves, New Jersey jumped jammed through the legislature a bill to try to limit, in every way possible, the carrying of a firearm in New Jersey. Because now that permits had to be issued, they wanted to make the permits themselves a nullity, and what they did was pass this what we call “Carry Killer” law.

Evan Nappen 03:29

The Carrier Killer law was immediately challenged. As soon as it became effective, there was litigation brought, essentially two major lawsuits. One by what we call the Coalition. Four pro-gun groups together bringing an action that was somewhat limited, but very effective. It focused on the “sensitive places” restrictions. The State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, is a proud sponsor of Gun Lawyer. They brought a more comprehensive litigation, but it was heard after the Coalition litigation had been granted the TRO. The Association litigation got consolidated into the same action in court as the Coalition’s litigation and that actually worked out tremendously. Remember these Page – 2 – of 7

groups are not in competition with one another and here, it actually worked beautifully. Because the first action, which was somewhat more limited than the Association’s action, got an injunction and that got the camel’s nose in the tent, so to speak. Then the Association’s litigation more comprehensive, additional injunctive relief by way of a Temporary Restraining Order was expanded.

Evan Nappen 05:10

So, now I want to review with you, the listener, because I know you want to know where you can and cannot carry under the new litigation that was put forward by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. We have the following places where there were carry restrictions, but those restrictions have now been blocked by the court as to being unconstitutional. These places specifically include, very important, the vehicle prohibition. The “Carry Killer”, anti-civil rights bill by Murphy had a provision that said when you get in a vehicle, your gun had to be unloaded and locked in a box. We call that provision, the “Car Jacker Protection” law, because that’s what it did. It protected criminals and carjackers and those bent on violently attacking you in your car. It protected them while forcing you to be a victim and to be disarmed. That has been enjoined and restricted, blocked by the court. So, it is not in effect, and you can carry with a Carry Permit a loaded handgun in your vehicle.

Evan Nappen 06:44

There is a private property restriction in which it mandated that the property owners had to affirmatively state, affirmatively state, that you could carry your gun on private property where you were otherwise, the default setting, if you will, the default setting was that you could not carry and that has been blocked by the court. So, that private property rule is not enforceable. Additionally, there was a prohibition on having a firearm in a bar or in a restaurant where alcohol is served. That has been blocked by the court. You can have your gun at a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served. Now, that doesn’t mean that you can drink alcohol or that you can have alcohol consumption. But if you’re in a place where alcohol is being served, you can still have your firearm under your carry permit.

Evan Nappen 07:49

Entertainment facilities – that was attempted to be banned where you could not have your gun in a movie theater. You could not have your gun at entertainment venues. That has been blocked by the court. You are allowed to have your firearm, your personal protection at entertainment facilities. There was a block on parks and beaches and other recreational facilities that has been blocked. You can have your firearm at parks and beaches and other recreational facilities. The only one of the sensitive places in that section to not be blocked is playgrounds, children’s playgrounds. You are still prohibited from having your firearm even with a carry permit. Additionally, there is the restriction that was on State Park Service properties. That has been enjoined from state parks – blocked by the court. Casinos, believe it or not, casinos and casino or casino simulcast facilities – that has been blocked, that has been restricted. So, you can carry in the casino or casino facilities. Also, publicly owned library or museum – that was attempted to be a sensitive place and that has been blocked. These are all the places that the court has stepped in and said no, you can’t enforce that. That’s not enforceable, and blocking the enforcement so that law- abiding citizens can protect themselves.

Evan Nappen 09:36 Page – 3 – of 7

Now, there still are a bunch of places that you are prohibited. This is just the initial stages of this litigation. Keep in mind as it proceeds, the next step is whether there’ll be a preliminary injunction and then after that a final injunction and these things can change. We may, in fact, see more places blocked from being enforcement of so-called sensitive places, barring us from having guns, or we may see, it’s possible, that some of the places currently being blocked from enforcement may suddenly be unblocked and found to be constitutional. I doubt it. Because the standard is so high to get that Temporary Restraining Order with that likelihood of success. But it could happen. So, this is an evolving situation.

Evan Nappen 10:32

But currently, in the places that I’ve discussed, you are lawful to still carry there. Additionally, the Court made it clear about educational facilities where there’s prohibition that these things are narrowly construed. The State even conceded in the hearings, narrow construction. My colleague, Dan Schmutter, is an excellent attorney, and he litigated this. He did a great job there for ANJRPC, and he ended up getting some really great concessions out of the state as well as a victory from the court.

Evan Nappen 11:17

But the following places are still prohibited, and I want you to be aware of that. Places of government administration, you know, administration buildings, essentially, police stations are still prohibited. That’s a good example. Courthouses, correctional facilities, all right. Don’t bring your gun to state prison. Okay? I mean, seriously, I had to tell you that, but okay. It’s in the law. State contracted halfway house, don’t go armed to the halfway houses. Playgrounds are still prohibited. No guns at a playground. Polling places, election etc. Don’t have your guns at polling places. Public gatherings are still on the list. This can seemingly be somewhat vague, and I’m sure there’s going to be challenges. These things have to be narrowly construed. But beware of public permitted gatherings where there may be restriction there. Be cautious about that.

Evan Nappen 12:20

Childcare facilities prohibited – nursery school, preschool, zoo and summer camps. This is still prohibited area, but these are narrowly construed, of course. But still, they’re prohibited. I think it’s interesting how they group nursery schools, preschools, summer camps, and zoos. With kids running around, I guess it is like a zoo. Hmm. But zoos are still right in there. College, school, university, other educational institutions and youth sporting events. These are still prohibited places. Homeless shelters. Licensed community residences for disabled and terminally ill.

Evan Nappen 13:06

Cannabis retailers or dispensaries. So, if you’re going to go buy weed, do not carry your gun into the dispensary. Not only is it prohibited under New Jersey law, but if you’re using weed, it’s prohibited for you to have a gun at all. That’s federal law. Now, it’s actually illegal as well for the state to be selling marijuana, because it’s still prohibited under federal law. But that they don’t worry about. They just don’t want you carrying a gun in their drug dealing facilities, you see? So, please don’t do that.

Evan Nappen 13:40 Page – 4 – of 7

Additionally, there’s a prohibition on the energy plants, whatever this means, where energy is produced. It’s kind of vague. It’s kind of broad. I mean, if you have solar panels, you can’t ever carry? It’s got to be narrowly construed, but watch out for energy plants, airport or transportation hubs. These are also problems and prohibited and sensitive places. Addiction or mental health treatment facility. Then the movies, public filmmaking, that we call the Alec Baldwin prohibition. You cannot have your gun if you’re making movies. So, those are still in place. Now whether they will remain in place remains to be seen. Beware and be careful.

Evan Nappen 14:32

But there has been expansion and the ability to carry has been broadened here by Judge Bumb, who has done a great job in Federal Court. Really laying out the case beautifully and showing why the Temporary Restraining Order should issue and in fact did issue, but the fight is not over. We’re going to be heading into that preliminary injunction phase and from there to what will be final injunction. I’m sure there’ll be continued litigation. This is why it’s so important that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. They’re funding and fighting for our rights, not just in court, but also legislatively, with our lobbyists, full time paid down in Trenton. This keeps you, as a member, up to date with the email alerts that come out. It really tells you what’s going on up to the minute so you can get the hottest, freshest, most important gun news. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. When we get back, we’re going to tell you about the impact of the Biden Pistol Brace ban. It is also in a state of evolution, but there are important things you need to know now that it’s been promulgated.

Speaker 3 16:12

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:26

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:33

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I appreciate your listening to the show. My being able to get the word out to help you to protect yourself and to see what’s going on. To get the real truth on these gun issues that the media itself does such a poor job of ever communicating. Now recently, we’re seeing movement on the Biden Pistol Brace Ban. It’s really a shame because the pistol Page – 5 – of 7

brace originally was designed to help wounded veterans and other disabled folks be able to shoot more accurately. It is a device that goes on a pistol that helps steady the pistol by creating a brace effect to one’s arm, increasing the size of the handgun, because it has this brace coming off the back. By attaching to one’s arm, it makes a gun more accurate.

Evan Nappen 18:53

So, what you have is Joe Biden and company banning accuracy with handguns. Because that’s all a pistol brace does is help the individual to shoot more accurately. They have created a law that they pulled out of their ass, frankly, because it’s not passed by Congress. It’s done by ATF making an interpretation that’s counter to the interpretation that they’ve had for almost 10 years, saying that a brace is okay and that a brace is lawful. Suddenly putting three to 30 million Americans in jeopardy of now possessing a short barrel rifle (SBR) because their pistol with a brace is now recategorized.

Evan Nappen 19:47

When you get right down to it, what does the brace do on the pistol? It makes it more accurate. Somehow they are saying in so many words that a more accurate firearm is a danger and that we want less accurate firearms. We want handguns that cannot be shot as accurately. We want wild rounds missing the target and going far and broad and hitting innocent persons. We don’t want you to be able to control your gun and control your shot even though they claim to be for “gun control”. But they’re not for this kind of gun control. We’re talking about gun control where you actually can control your gun. No, when it comes to actually controlling your gun, they want to stop that, and they criminalize it.

Evan Nappen 20:41

They, therefore make a braced gun, a declared SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) which puts it in the prohibition category under federal law that is equivalent to possessing a machine gun. So, if you have a braced pistol, it’s the same as having an unregistered machine gun. The Feds put out a rule in which the options are not many for New Jerseyans, particularly. Now generally in America, if you can possess an SBR in whatever state you’re in, the Feds will let you register your pistol braced gun. And with it registered, meaning a federal registration under NFA (National Firearms Act), normally, that’s $200. They are somehow waiving the $200, which is frankly, legally not possible, because only Congress would have the authority to do that. The agency doesn’t have the ability to say no tax. But somehow they’re trying to get away with that by calling it, I don’t know, some other thing other than actual tax waiver. But the bottom line is, they’re normally should be a $200 fee. They’re getting rid of that, whether that’s lawful or not, remains to be seen. You get to file the National Firearms Act (NFA) registration, and once you do that, then it registers your braced pistol as an SBR.

Evan Nappen 22:21

The problem is in New Jersey and other states like Connecticut as well, there is no lawful way to possess an SBR. So, by not being able to possess that SBR under state law, you now simply have contraband. ATF is not allowing for registration of pistol braced firearms in jurisdictions where possession of an SBR would not be lawful. So, if you are in New Jersey, you want to register your pistol braced firearm as an SBR, and you’re willing to file the form to do it and to go through the hoops and loops to do the proper Federal registration, ATF will not allow you to register it. You will not be permitted to do so because the state jurisdiction that you’re in, in this case, New Jersey, or for example, Page – 6 – of 7

if you’re in Connecticut, does not allow your possession of the item as NFA. So, you’re barred from making yourself legal. You cannot make yourself legal by doing that registration.

Evan Nappen 23:48

This period of time that’s available to make yourself legal is 120 days, that’s it. After that 120 days, if you haven’t registered it as an SBR, then you’re unlawfully in possession of that SBR. The other options are you can destroy and get rid of your firearm. I’m sure you’re all going to run out and do that. Or it appears that you can remove the brace and that currently, right now, the best advice is to remove the brace from the handgun.

Evan Nappen 24:33

With the brace removed from the handgun, it is no longer an SBR, and there’s case law that talks about how this has to be interpreted. That’s the Supreme Court case of Thompson Center. In that case, the Court essentially decided that even if you have the parts that could make, for example, an SBR or short barrel rifle, if you have not assembled it into that, and you have other parts there that you could make it into a lawful firearm, that under what’s known as a rule of lenity, you are legal for your possession.

Evan Nappen 25:19

So, for example, let’s say you have an AR pistol that has an AR brace on it, and you’re in New Jersey. You cannot register it as an SBR federally because Jersey doesn’t allow you to possess your SBRs. If you remove the stock, that is satisfactory to the feds, apparently, but you must have another gun, that would be legal for you to have that brace on. Something like an AR rifle with a 16 inch or greater barrel that that brace could go on. Then you have essentially met under Thompson Center the criteria to have the brace removed from the other one, not on it, and you have another gun that could actually use it, you don’t actually put it on it though. Therefore with it removed simply having the two components, the pistol and the brace does not give you an SBR. You don’t have a problem at that point with the individual possession, since you happen to have that AR rifle that would fit the brace part. I know it’s convoluted and bizarre, but this is essentially where New Jerseyans are left. The option for registration cannot be utilized by New Jerseyan, and therefore, it’s going to end up being the removal.

Evan Nappen 27:10

Now further complicating this are the guns that are considered “others”. Guns that are considered like the Troy A4s, etc. When you add an “other” and there was reliance on pistol brace, then you see that no longer is a brace considered just that, a brace, and the configuration of that firearm changes. What you may very well end up with there is an “assault firearm” under New Jersey law because now it’s going to be deemed as a rifle that uses a detachable magazine. Then it has more than two offending features, and you’ve got a problem. This is all very gun specific, and we’re going to have to see how this continues to roll out. But Jerseyans have special problems here and other jurisdictions as well, that do not recognize the SBR possession.

Evan Nappen 28:14

Even though all this is going on, there’s also major litigation. Litigation in multiple circuits going at this very law. The arguments that are being put forward are, of course, bringing in the Second Amendment. One of the very interesting arguments and I’ll just share with you as to how pistol brace is arguably Page – 7 – of 7

protected by the Second Amendment is because of what the Second Amendment protects. The Second Amendment protects the arms that are “in common use”. Now the NFA that has prohibited short barrel rifles. Well, ATF is now taking a ruling, and it’s making essentially 30-40 million guns under a definition of short barrel rifle. Well, when you have 30-40 million guns, that’s called “common use”, folks, and you’ve just placed the very item that you’re attempting to prohibit squarely under what is protected by Heller and McDonald and Bruen. And that is commonly possessed firearms. When they’re in the millions and millions and possessed by Americans in such a way, then they’re commonly possessed, and they’re protected by the Second Amendment. So, in effect, ATF has hung itself by its own petard by creating this ridiculous interpretation of the old rule. Banning these braces, whose design is simply to make something more accurate, and particularly to be of aid to wounded and disabled veterans and others. So, the fight is on. But if you’re in any of these jurisdictions where action needs to be taken, please take the appropriate action because you don’t want to become the test case.

Evan Nappen 30:38

Meanwhile, make sure you belong to your state association. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, easily found at anjrpc.org. Stand up for your rights and protect yourself and your future generations’ rights to have firearms and to not be victims but to be defenders. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 31:17

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media Production The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E119_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 118-Biden’s 40 Million SBR’s… Brace Yourself Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 118SUMMARY KEYWORDS

brace, firearm, short barrel rifle, pistol, sbr, new jersey, gun, biden, atrocity, new jerseyans, called, gun laws, law, sutherland, national firearms act, abiding citizen, nfa, lawyer, pistol grip, government

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:18

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you may have heard that our President has pushed another bit of his urgent, vital, gun control efforts to help destroy the Second Amendment, which is his agenda, of course. Part of that has been to abuse through agency regulation in any way that he can. Not just go after dealers, which you’ve heard me talk about, and we’ve had that fight on a couple of dealers already where we’ve luckily won. But now one of his latest moves is to reclassify what are called “pistol braces” as making firearms into SBRs, which are Short Barrel Rifles. Now the pistol brace has been around almost 10 years now. What it does is it attaches to a handgun, so it gives greater stability and allows for greater accuracy when shooting your handgun. It is used extensively by wounded and injured veterans and those that have injuries or handicaps with shooting, and it would allow for their ability to shoot much better and more accurately as an aid in bracing the firearm. They became very popular because with a brace, even though there was debate as to whether you can or cannot shoulder a brace until eventually it was determined you can shoulder the brace. What would occur is your firing of a pistol with a brace became more accurate. The bottom line, all a brace does is make your shooting more accurate.

Evan Nappen 02:14

So, it is fair to say that Biden has engaged in a war on accuracy. When you shoot a firearm, they want you to be all over the place. They don’t want accuracy. They want you to hit targets you didn’t intend. They want bullets to fly wild. They obviously do not want you to be accurate because all a pistol brace does is improve accuracy. What Biden has done, through his administration, has determined that the brace turns a firearm into an SBR. An SBR is a short barrel rifle. Now short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns have been prohibited under the National Firearms Act since the 1930s. They’re in the same category as possession of a machine gun. Now the whole absurdity of the 1934 National Firearms Act is a whole other debate we could have, and the National Firearms Act is itself an affront to the Second Amendment. The politics that created the ban of the ’30s were a combination of what was a naive understanding of the progun folks at the time. And of course, a major dose of Hollywood. It was the media even then, who were the few that misused firearms. These things were turned into Warner Brothers movies. Everyone knew that if you ban machine guns, you would end gang violence and that only criminals use these things. All of that’s, of course, nonsense and false, but the same politics of that period of the 30s. Page – 2 – of 7

Evan Nappen 04:09

They say that the idea of an SBR or short barrel rifle really shouldn’t even have been something that was ever banned. The reality of it is we need to repeal the entire NFA because there’s just no reality to it. You start distinguishing between fully automatic and semi-automatic, and it really just gets downright silly. Bullets are coming out of that gun, and it’s the person not the firearm. If your barrel is short but you have a stock so now it’s a little more accurate with the stock than if you didn’t have a stock on a shorter barrel, who cares? There’s been various workarounds that of course show the absurdity to it all with sawed off shotguns. Because we ban sawed off shotguns, but we can have a shockwave. So, try to distinguish any kind of material issue between a sawed off shotgun and a shockwave, there’s nothing. Sawed off shotguns shouldn’t be prohibited either but why not? We have 14 inch barrel shockwaves, and it’s not a problem. It comes down to people, not guns.

Evan Nappen 05:14

This is something that we’re going to get to a little later in the show. Its focus on material objects has always been a folly. But the problem with the folly is that there can be serious penalties at play if you are caught in their game of musical chairs, and you end up being a victim of gun laws. I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of gun laws. So, for example, someone has sent a letter to me and it’s on this very topic. From Salvador, regarding pistol braces. Evan, now to BATF has determined that any pistol with a pistol brace be classified as an SBR. How does this affect New Jersey residents that have purchased NJ legal “other” firearms?

Evan Nappen 05:55

Well, this is a very important question. Not only for the United States in which there’s an estimated up to 40 million pistols with braces. That’s the estimate. Anywhere from 10 million to 40 million of these braced pistols. Individuals in New Jersey have a special concern because it is particularly troublesome for individuals in New Jersey. I’ll explain that in a minute. The SBR issue itself is going to turn all these into the equivalent of possessing, essentially an unregistered machine gun under federal law, because SBR is sort of in that same category. So, you’re going to have to take some kind of action unless the lawsuits that are coming are successful in stopping this law from taking effect. The onus is on us, it’s on us to take action. That’s our ATF. They’re like the original make work agency, of course. Why did they allow this for 10 years and then suddenly reverse themselves creating this havoc? This wreck? This mess? They knew originally that it was fine, and it served this great purpose. Now politically, that’s all that’s changed.

Evan Nappen 07:13

So, this brace rule says that within 120 days, you’re given this so-called grace period to take action. One of the actions that you can take is you can voluntarily give up your gun and brace. I’m sure everyone wants to run out and just give a no compensation. Give up their gun and their brace. They say that you can remove the brace, but it’s not really crystal clear about everything about that removal. More information is going to come out because, although they published this, there’s one little step more to being completely formalized, but it should happen any day. Maybe by the time you’re hearing this show, it might have officially been triggered. So, removal of the brace appears to be an option. But we may have to do, we might have to do more than remove it. Time will tell. We got to see, but at least removing it seems to be an option. Page – 3 – of 7

Evan Nappen 08:08

The other thing is you can register, which they’re allowing you to do. A National Firearms Act registration, where you register your braced pistol as an SBR with the federal government. They supposedly have a 120 day grace period to do that registration. So, you can keep your brace on the pistol if it’s registered as an SBR, and that’s an NFA (National Firearms Act) registration through the feds. Normally, there would be a $200 tax to do such registration. The key here is that they have waived that. They’re not imposing, shall we say, the $200 tax. So, you’re able to do this NFA registration without spending the $200. How nice of them. If you want to take that option, that is of course an option.

Evan Nappen 09:09

But here’s where the problem comes in for New Jerseyans. You see New Jersey doesn’t currently have pistols with braces under New Jersey law, a pistol with a brace as determined by the State Police who followed federal regulation regarding this, to their credit. They said look, the Fed says this is just a pistol with a brace, and we’ll go along with that in so many words. But now, here’s the problem. The feds no longer say that. So, in New Jersey, if you have a pistol with a brace under the Fed reg that has now changed, you now have an SBR, a short barrel rifle. You do not have a pistol with a brace. And although the feds will allow you to possess a short barrel rifle, if it’s properly registered under the National Firearms Act, which the current rule change supposedly allows you to do within 120 days. You can register it as an SBR but that only makes you legal for federal law purposes. It only makes your SBR, formally pistol brace now SBR, federally legal, but in so doing, you’re federally declaring that your pistol is now a short barrel rifle.

Evan Nappen 10:53

Under New Jersey law, there is no lawful way for a citizen to possess a short barrel rifle. Short barrel rifles are prohibited in New Jersey, period. End of story. It doesn’t matter that you have a federally registered, NFA legal, federal government approved short barrel rifle. New Jersey says short barrel rifles are prohibited. So are short barrel shotguns, for that matter. So, what you’re doing is essentially incriminating yourself into possessing contraband under New Jersey State law in the attempt to legalize your possession of the item under federal law. The New Jersey gun owner is in an even further predicament, thanks to President Biden’s anti Second Amendment, anti-constitutional efforts that he is doing through agency abuse. That’s what’s going to hammer New Jerseyans.

Evan Nappen 12:11

Now as Salvatore asked, what about other firearms, “other” meaning the firearm that is declared an “other”. Not just talking generally about “other guns”. He’s talking about the others, which is a legal definition for firearm or something that is neither a pistol nor a long arm. It’s put in that category of “other”. Then with a brace on an other, what do you have? And that becomes a very important question. Because if you have an “other” and it has a brace, is the braced other going to be viewed as needing a registration to make it an SBR or an SBS? Because now it becomes a short barrel rifle or short barrel shotgun. Part of the rationale that allowed many of these “others” to exist, particularly like Troy A4s and other guns of that configuration are now in question. Page – 4 – of 7

Evan Nappen 13:14

We’re going to need to get actual analysis and some type of official legal opinion as to what happens in New Jersey as far as how the State Police want to regard it on those that possess these type of “others” that use pistol braces because the police state police opinion on allowing the Troy A4 and “others” relied upon the federal definition utilizing pistol brace, which they can no longer rely upon. Because now the braces make for firearms falling into other categories. The categories include the possibility of short barrel rifles, short barrel shotguns, etc. So, it’s quite a mess, and it gets even worse for New Jerseyans. They’re barred from short barrel rifle possession but also if this firearm is suddenly deemed to be a rifle that is short barrel, the short barrel part put that aside, it’s now a rifle.

Evan Nappen 14:22

Well, if it’s a rifle that uses a detachable magazine, now the question is, is it an assault firearm? Since many of them have features that would be more than one so-called offending feature, such as having a pistol grip, and a threaded barrel, threaded muzzle that is, a pistol grip with a flash hider, a pistol grip with a folding or telescoping stock on these guns. Well, if you have a pistol grip and any one of these other things, or a bayonet lug, or a grenade launcher, which I doubt you’d probably have on there unless you go out grenade launching on weekends. But the problem, as you can see, is that you can then end up possessing under New Jersey law an assault firearm as well as “other” prohibited gun under either an SBR and SBS category. It gets very messy, very messy, and very dangerous for New Jersey citizens under these efforts by Biden. So, be warned and beware.

Evan Nappen 15:31

You’re going to need to take action within 120 days under federal law. As far as registering it, that doesn’t look to be a viable option for New Jerseyans. So, the most likely option is going to be removal of the brace, and you’re going to have to do it in conformance with what satisfies the criteria under this rule, and how that’s going to be viewed. I’ll have more information on that in upcoming shows, but you’ve been warned. So, watch out. You can thank Biden for this, and you can see his direct destructive results and the Democrats as to what they’ve done to our rights. This is why you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. We are proud to have them as a sponsor of the show. They are the lobby group, the political arm, the state affiliate of the NRA in New Jersey, and you need to be a member because they fight these issues. They’re fighting for us as we speak. When we come back, I’ll tell you more about them. I have an important story about just the case that I feel illustrates the absurdity on so many levels of gun control, and I think you’ll be as fascinated as I was by this particular case.

Speaker 3 16:09

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you Page – 5 – of 7

never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 18:26

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 18:42

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. So, I was telling you about the great organization of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Every gun owner in New Jersey needs to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You can easily find them on the web at anjrpc.org . Make sure you join and be a member. They also have a range membership, too. They have a beautiful range called Cherry Ridge Range, and it’s literally shooting into the side of a mountain. It’s very gorgeous and beautiful, but you don’t have to belong as a range member. You can just belong as a regular member and not a range member. But no matter what, you need to belong. They are the key group, the key group fighting for our rights. A full time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they are heavily involved in litigation going on fighting for gun rights and utilizing the newly found strength of the Second Amendment. Thanks to Justice Thomas and the Bruen decision.

Evan Nappen 20:04

So, recently the Justice Department has done something that’s just amazing and fascinating to see. This is a case in which I think it is just chock full of the greatest examples of the failure of gun control. The failure of what the anti-gunners are looking to do, and it speaks to it on different levels through this whole episode of what was a terrible atrocity. I don’t call these things tragedies. I call them atrocities because that’s what they are. That’s what these individuals are committing. They’re committing atrocities. The one that I’m talking about here, this is known as the Sutherland Springs attack. Sutherland Springs in Texas. As you may recall, in 2017, there was an attack in Sutherland Springs on the church there, and in this attack on the church, by this individual, who went on this atrocity, this rampage. He killed I believe 22 persons and injured 26 persons. It was a terrible tragedy that is not a tragedy at all, but is an atrocity. Yet you’ll constantly hear it called a tragedy.

Evan Nappen 21:50

It’s an atrocity because it’s the individual, when you start talking about tragedy, then it somehow makes it sound like it’s something that we’re to blame for, and we’re not. It’s this guy that’s to blame. But you see in this case, the lawyers for the survivors of the victims, and their families, they’re suing, and they sued. They sued the Government and here’s the interesting thing. What ended Sutherland Springs, what ended that attack, first of all, and you may have heard about it, was a law-abiding citizen with an AR-15. That’s right. The hero of Sutherland Springs is Stephen Willeford. You may have heard about him. He was the guy that went and grabbed his AR, and went there and helped out and stopped this atrocity from becoming even worse. Here, a citizen with an AR-15 is a critical component to stopping this what the antis like to call gun violence. All right.

Evan Nappen 23:09 Page – 6 – of 7

First of all, Sutherland Springs stands for the proposition of an armed citizen with an AR-15 making a difference. Now, the auntis hate that, of course. They hate that, because that goes against their narrative. It goes against their agenda. So, what makes this case so interesting is not only do we have a law-abiding citizen saving the day with an AR-15, which just drives the auntis nuts, but also from this atrocity, there was a lawsuit. The lawsuit ended up in which Biden’s DOJ. This is Biden’s DOJ who has to defend what happened here because this individual who caused all this mayhem was somebody who never should have been allowed to purchase a gun under current federal law. But the Air Force failed, and this isn’t even something that’s questioned. The Air Force failed to put into the database for NICS that he had a domestic violence prohibitor, that he was dishonorably discharged, which would have been a prohibited, and then he had an involuntary mental health commitment that would have been a prohibitor.

Evan Nappen 24:39

So, here’s a guy with three disqualifiers under federal law. Any one of which would deny him the ability to purchase a gun. The Air Force did not put this information into the database, and he was able to purchase firearms that he apparently ended up using in his deadly spree. Now the Government ends up getting slammed in a lawsuit for $230 million. They’re held responsible in the civil suit for the failure of the Air Force to put this information into the NICS database. So, it actually put the Government in the position where they had to argue that they’re not responsible, because the NICS database won’t stop somebody who’s bent on committing crimes. Yeah. Our Government actually said this. Listen to this. Listen to this. The Government argued that the perpetrator was aware of many avenues for obtaining firearms without going through a background check, and he was determined to commit his premeditated crime. The Government insisted that the system’s failure to stop it, it can’t be considered the legal cause of the harm, because he would have found another way to get a gun. That’s Biden’s DOJ arguing that, folks.

Evan Nappen 26:23

Think about this now. They’re arguing that NICS doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t stop criminals, and mad men from getting guns, even if the Air Force had put the information into the system. Well, well, they had to admit it. They’re actually using it in the case where they’ve been found liable because their own BS about stopping individuals, that NCS is somehow effective, has bitten them in the ass for $230 million. Okay? And they don’t like that now, when reality bites you in the ass. That guess what? You’re now responsible for this stupid system that doesn’t work anyway. You’re responsible for this. And they’re holding the Government responsible through the Air Force not putting the names in, even though the Government itself argues that even if they had put it in, it wouldn’t have stopped him.

Evan Nappen 27:33

So, let’s just take a step back from this whole thing now. Why the hell do we even have NICS? It is a complete recognized failure by our Government. It doesn’t work. Our Government admits it won’t stop criminals. So, who’s it stopping, folks? You and me. It’s just law-abiding citizens put through yet another hoop, another bunch of “disqualifiers” that don’t stop anybody anyway. Yet, it’s an intrusion on our rights. It is there to make the public feel good when the Government itself admits it doesn’t work. There’s still plenty of avenues that bad guys can still get their guns. So, every time you see NICS (National Instant Check System) being pushed, every time you see oh, we need to add this disqualifier Page – 7 – of 7

and that disqualifier, and we have to go through these background checks. What did we learn? What do we know? That it doesn’t work. Why are we using a system that is admittedly a failure and admittedly, not doing what it set out to do to the degree that our own Government uses it as a defense? Because our Government is held liable when their own pack of lies, bites them in the ass over what NICS should be doing, but never does. And in fact, can’t do. That’s the stupidity of this in a lawsuit brought because of an atrocity that only ended because of a law-abiding citizen with an AR-15. The other thing that the antis want to stop. So, this Sutherland Springs case is the prime example of the folly and the failure of gun laws. There’s just no question about it.

Evan Nappen 30:00

This is why I’m here and that you’re listening to Gun Lawyer so that you can see the truth. We have to keep fighting for the truth. The truth is on our side. Please make sure you support the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs at anjrpc.org. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. It protects criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 30:41

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E118_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 117- Size Matters… and Other Lies Cops TellAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 117SUMMARY KEYWORDS

exemptions, law, charged, insurance, new jersey, gun, carry, judges, lawyer, association, gun rights, gun owners, handguns, anti, lie, court, home, police, state, carry permit

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I got some updates, and some interesting things are rolling. I’m sure we’re going to have some more excitement. As I’m sure many of you know, there was a Temporary Restraining Order issued, as we’ve discussed by Judge Bumb, who we are calling Saint Bumb for issuing the restraining order against a number of the sensitive places that create this gutting of our carry license. It was about maybe five I think were part of that first lawsuit, and then the vehicle transportation as well, like we discussed. But there’s the second lawsuit and that’s the Association’s lawsuit. You know, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs who is a sponsor of this show. And that is a more comprehensive litigation that covers much more than the Coalition’s and the Coalition’s as successful and so far, excellent. As I said before, these organizations are not in competition with one another. They’re all fighting for our gun rights and have taken two different approaches.

Evan Nappen 01:37

Approaches that dovetail nicely, frankly, because ironically, it appears and interestingly, it appears that the double teaming is heading to be what looks like a great success. I don’t want to count our chickens before they hatch, but it really is. I’m very cautiously optimistic. Association’s comprehensive lawsuit goes at more of the sensitive places and goes at other challenges in this atrocious anti-civil rights law by Murphy. Other very bad provisions are in there throughout the law, not just the sensitive places. So, it’s really poised to do a major, a major slice and dice of that law. The two punches, the double punch from both organizations, the jab and the uppercut, the successful boom and an uppercut, boom. It really looks like it’s going to do tremendous damage to the law, and just knock it out. And that’s what all of us want to see. So, it’s very exciting, and Thursday, are the arguments on the TRO from the Association’s litigation. We should see some excellent things there. I wanted to mention that because when you’re listening to the show, you can look forward to catching that event. Then the next show, we’ll be discussing if there was an outcome by then. If Judge Bumb has made a determination and what that determination will be.

Evan Nappen 03:35

Additionally, we’ve been experiencing some anti-gun activities from the Fed side and that includes Biden’s pistol brace ban. I want to talk to you later in the show about what you need to know about the Biden pistol brace ban and their criminalization of oh, about 40 million or so gun owners in the United Page – 2 – of 8

States. That impact is particularly important if you’re in New Jersey because of the conflict that it puts you in, and there’s steps that you need to know to take. Let me tell you, though, one of the things that really occurred to me this week, even though all this interesting news, shall we say is happening with various attacks on our rights and freedoms. But remember, the current laws that are in the books are also enforced, and these laws that get enforced are often enforced above and beyond any measure of sanity, any measure of understanding. I get calls from folks every day that are facing charges. But this one story that I’m going to tell you now that individual that contacted me, just made me say, I have to talk about this on the show, because every once in a while, there’s something that’s so ridiculous that it’s beyond the normal, ridiculous. When it’s beyond the normal, ridiculous, I just know that my listeners have got to hear about it. Because it just hits you like what? You got to be kidding me, and it is the best.

Evan Nappen 05:33

One of the things that I always find entertaining is the lies the police tell. I mean, some of them are just the biggest whoppers and they’re just hilarity. Now, I know they don’t mean to be hilarious, and I know it can have serious consequences, these lies. But, you know, some of them are just where do they even come up with it. I don’t even know. I mean, some are just outstanding. So, a new police lie came to my attention that I’d never heard before that goes in the record books. It involves a fellow who ended up getting charged with possession of hollow nose ammunition in New Jersey. Now the thing is, New Jersey, as you probably know, prohibits hollow point or hollow nose ammunition except within narrow exemptions. You can have it from the place of purchase and have it at your home. You can have it at the target range, and you can have it while hunting, if appropriate for hunting. But if you have those outside those exemptions, then it’s a felony level offense – 18 months in state prison for each bullet, arguably, if you possess them outside exemptions. Now remember our whole system is exemption-based anyway. Possession of handguns, you have the exemptions. Long arms, the exemptions. It’s only if you have a carry license was the handgun no longer restricted by exemptions. If you had a Firearms ID Card, then you no longer were limited by exemptions. Then this A4769 bill gutted those licenses, so that we’re back to being strictly exemption reliant. But as the litigation proceeds, we’re removing that strict exemption reliance again. Meaning that you have to only be in those narrow exemptions that allow for possession in the home, possession at a target range, possession at your place of business, that’s property owned or possessed by you, etc. Narrow exemptions.

Evan Nappen 07:53

So, anyway, this individual had hollow nose in his home, in his home. I get false arrests all the time, folks. I mean, it’s part of this gun law that the politicians pass. These knee jerk emotional things They don’t even know what they’re doing. Then the word is out that somehow it’s prohibited, but they don’t even know what they are and how it works. No one ever teaches the officers the actual law and how it works. I see these false arrests because they don’t know the exemptions. They don’t realize the exemptions. And then of course, their egos are so fragile that if you point out such an exemption well, they don’t want to hear what you have to say. Unless you’re a lawyer. Unless you’re me. Unless you’re on motion. Unless it’s in front of the judge and now they’re on the witness stand and I’m cross examining them. Then they look like a giant a hole because they didn’t pay attention to begin with. But before that gets there, there’s other things that they do. So, here I saw this in action or heard this great story. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 08:58

Here this individual is charged that he had hollow nose in his home, and as most of you know, you should know, that hollow nose ammunition in your home is legal. It’s legal under the exemptions. You can even have it in your gun in your home, and it’s legal under the exemptions. If you’re justified in using deadly force in your home, you can use the hollow nose ammunition in your home in self-defense. If you’re justified in using the deadly force your fine, the hollow nose is fine. Because you’re exempt, you’re in your home. But this officer decided for whatever reason, he is going to charge this guy with hollow nose and says come on down and pick up the summons for hollow nose ammunition. But this fellow checks out the law, you know, checks it out. It’s not hard to find out if you look at my book on gun law, I explain it. Go online and see certain reliable resources that they’ll tell you. Even the State Police website will explain about hollow nose in your home, it’s legal. So, he looked at this and it’s in his home.

Evan Nappen 10:11

So he’s not represented by me or anything at this time. He just goes to the officer to pick up the summons, and he says to the officer, look, you’re charging me with unlawful possession of hollow point ammunition. And it was in my home. He says, Yeah, it was. He agrees. Well, that’s exempt. I’m exempt. I’m allowed to have hollow nose ammunition in my home. Why are you charging me? Ready for this, folks? Here’s the officer’s answer to why he was charging him. Oh, well, that’s because of the size of the cavity. The size of the cavity? What is that the cavity in the eye of the officer’s ass? I mean, what is it? The cavity inside his head where his brain should be? I mean, what is the size of the cavity? There’s nothing in the law about the size of the cavity. The hollow nose could be an inside out salad bowl, or the size of a pinprick? It doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. This quote “size of the cavity” has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you are lawfully in possession of hollow nose ammunition or not. Doesn’t matter. Oh, no. It’s the size of the cavity. Oh, I’m sorry, do you know what the legal term for that is? It’s called bullshit. That’s what the legal term for that is. It’s a legal term we use. Look it up in Black’s Law Dictionary. It has a special application. It’s called “bullshit” when cops make up laws when they’re caught falsely charging an individual. It’s right there in the definition in Black’s. You’ll find it. It’s incredible.

Evan Nappen 12:07

Yet now this guy has to deal with a Fourth Degree felony level offense. He’s facing 18 months in state prison on a charge that he is absolutely not guilty of it. He even pointed it out to the officer and instead he gets “size of the cavity” as to why he’s being charged. I swear. It’s like New Jersey, not only will you get falsely arrested. But laws just get like factors and logic made up as we go along. To justify the abuse heaped on a law-abiding gun owner. I mean, God forbid the officer says what do you mean in your home? Maybe you didn’t realize that? I mean, check that out. Let me check that, sir, and he would find out it’s true. And then oh, no, no, we can’t do that. The ego is on the line. Oh, police don’t make mistakes. We wouldn’t falsely charge him. And now, guess what you’ve done? You’ve compounded it by not fixing it in time. Because now the guy’s got more, more of an argument to make about how he was treated and what happened to him. More of a statement, more of a sympathy factor for not just being falsely charged but then being lied to with such absolute garbage found nowhere.

Evan Nappen 13:36 Page – 4 – of 8

And let me just tell you, part of the problem is because the police are trained to lie. They’re allowed to lie. Look, I’m not anti- police. Don’t get me wrong. I represent police. Plenty of police. New Jersey, as I’ve said, eats their own when it comes to guns and cops and all thatnot a problem. I’m totally for law enforcement, and I want to see the bad guys put away. But I’m talking about good guys. Many, many times officers are just awesome. They recognize a law-abiding gun owner, and they bend over backwards to help the poor guy. And instead of doing with this ding dong did, make up crap about why he’s being falsely charged. They bend over backwards not to mess with, and I respect those guys. Those guys are peace officers. They take their job seriously and are trying to focus on who the real problem is. But not these others that just lie and do this stuff. Unfortunately, lying is part of the training. Because by lying you can often get information and things and it’s part of the Interrogation Process. Police are allowed to lie to you to get information. You’re not allowed to lie to the police, however. If you lie to the police, that’s a crime. It’s not a crime for the police to lie to you. They’re doing it in their investigatory capacity, etc. It’s not a problem. So, part of the culture there is fostering lying to get to what is, arguably, the good ends of catching bad guys.

Evan Nappen 15:13

But I think sometimes that it goes to their head, and they’re not distinguishing when they shouldn’t be lying and when they should be truthing. Looking at actual facts that are brought before them as in this case, which apparently did not matter one bit. And that’s how we ended up with award-winning statements, like the “size of the cavity”. When charging somebody with a hollow nose in New Jersey, in which it’s a factor that is utterly and completely, legally irrelevant. When we come back, I have some more important information that may save your life.

Speaker 3 16:00

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:14

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:21

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. This is Evan Nappen. I am very thankful to be here able to speak to all of you today even though I’m fighting some stuffy nose as you can hear. I still want to get this information out. See gun rights and liberty flourish. These are the glorious times of a fight, glorious fight Page – 5 – of 8

that we’re in, and we’re doing well. So, stay optimistic. Truth is on our side. I have also been fortunate to get sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, and it is an organization that I truly believe in. I am proud to serve the Board and the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You need to be a member of anjrpc.org. It is the NRA affiliate of New Jersey, the state affiliate. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they’re litigating these issues for us. The atrocious anti-civil rights bill by Murphy. The assault firearm law challenge. The large capacity magazine challenge. They’re also filing Amicus, meaning friend of the court, briefs, such as on the MU case. That’s our firm’s case. Evan Nappen. EvanNappen.com, our law firm there. We have a case challenging the constitutionality of so-called Public Health, Safety, Welfare denial. These are all very important issues that are going to affect 1000s and 1000s of New Jerseyans. The Association is there defending your rights in New Jersey, focused in really the hardest, toughest most anti-gun state in the country, and you need to be part of this group. So that together we have the power to fight and to continue in our quest to save our freedoms, not just for ourselves, but for our kids and our grandkids. They’ll look back and thank us. I know that they will. I mean that. So join the Association, anjrpc.org .

Evan Nappen 17:35

I love getting letters to the show, and they come in as ask Evan letters. I’ve gotten some important letters here with some important questions. I wish I could read everybody’s letter. But we don’t have time to do that. But I do have a handful here, that I think would be very helpful. So, this one’s from David. He says regarding NJ carry law and insurance. I listened to Episode 116 on where I can carry. Thank you for covering that topic in great detail. It was very helpful as I completely stopped carrying once the Bruen Buster bill was passed, a little progress has been made. There’s still one big issue as I see it. That’s the requirement to have insurance. As far as I know, we cannot buy insurance in New Jersey. I’ve tried several insurances, but they don’t insure in New Jersey. How can we carry legally anywhere, even in the do not enforce areas you mentioned if we are required to have insurance, but cannot buy it? Regardless, David.

Evan Nappen 21:20

David raises an excellent issue, and he’s correct. The problem with the liability insurance requirement that’s found in the anti-civil rights bill is that no insurance company can actually write the insurance that it demands. Because the insurance companies are currently taking a position that insurance requires them to insure intentional acts. Insurance companies don’t insure intentional acts, they insure negligence, things like that – not intentional acts. What makes it even more ironic is that originally Murphy signed an executive order banning insurance for gun owners. Banning what he pejoratively called Murder Insurance, and that closed down a number of the providers of insurance to folks that had wanted to have legal protection, should they get sued regarding using their gun. Now the funny thing is none of the insurance programs that existed, “insured for murder”. They did not insure for intentional acts. It was always to provide legal defense, if you were charged and needed to be represented in terms of self-defense, and to provide services according to that, but not covering, “murder insurance”. The ironic thing here is that Murphy signed the bill, the anti-civil rights bill A4769 that the insurance companies now view requires them to insure intentional acts. In other words, intentional things like murder. So, in other words, Murphy signs a bill mandating that gun owners literally get “murder insurance”, something that didn’t exist before and doesn’t exist now. Unless the insurance companies or the folks there work it out with the Insurance Commission in the state of New Jersey, so that there is Page – 6 – of 8

some product that satisfies this and that has the correct exclusions, we’re not going to see such insurance.

Evan Nappen 23:38

Now the good news is that the requirement for the insurance does not take place until the second, I think, of July. July 2 is when you actually need it. So, that part hasn’t kicked in at the moment, but it will be by the beginning of July. But part of the Association’s lawsuit that we talked about is challenging the requirement to have insurance, and I think there’s excellent constitutional arguments there to be made to stop the requirement of insurance. And that’s because the constitutional right is something that you cannot mandate insurance before you exercise it. Do you think it would be right to mandate insurance? New Jersey requires $300,000 liability for exercising your Second Amendment right. Should we require $300,000 liability before anybody publishes a newspaper article? Should we require that every newspaper reporter and TV news anchor have at least a $300,000 insurance policy? They would have to show that card and have it on them at all times by the way while they’re exercising their First Amendment right. Should we have a $300,000 liability for anyone who wants to observe any religious belief in a house of worship or to stop and pray or to believe in whatever God they want to believe it to in order before you do anything religion wise? Do you need a $300,000 insurance before you exercise your First Amendment right to religion? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think those things are going to fly, and it won’t fly for our Second Amendment rights, either.

Evan Nappen 25:34

Because the right to keep and bear arms is the equivalent of the First Amendment right to free speech and the right to free exercise of religion and the right to Sixth Amendment right to cross examine witnesses. All that’s in the Bruen decision in the same paragraph when Thomas describes it. He uses these very examples of the First Amendment, Second Amendment, Sixth Amendment. All together as those rights. So, the insurance requirement hasn’t taken place yet, even though it’s slated to. I’m cautiously optimistic that it will be killed by the court. Until then, there is no insurance company that I’m aware of that has yet to provide a product that would satisfy that requirement.

Evan Nappen 26:29

I have another question here that came in from SIM regarding carrying guns, not on a court order. I’d like to start off by saying I’m a big fan of the show and your work. The question I have is about whether my carry permit applies to all guns that I own. I received my carry permit before the carry killer law was passed and signed. I am restricted by my court order to the guns I qualified with. I heard with the new law and with courts out of process, the court is out of the process, that one permit is good for all guns. Is this true? A lot of people would benefit from this clarification. Thanks in advance.

Evan Nappen 27:16

It is true that under the carry killer law, the anti-civil rights bill, it does state that one handgun permit is good for all handguns someone has. But it also states that under our current law, that one handgun permit is good for all handguns one may own. The language that says that one permit is good for all is right in the very first paragraph. Paragraph a. Right off the bat. Very first paragraph under NJS 2C:58-4, which is the licensing statute for a permit to carry a handgun. The very first paragraph of that statute says that one handgun permit is good for all the handguns that you have. Now even though it says that Page – 7 – of 8

judges, again, the judges who took away our gun rights to begin with under carry by creating the virtually impossible to achieve standard of “justifiable need”. These same judges create restrictions by taking advantage of the supposed permission for judges to restrict carry. Even though they’re not actually authorized to restrict the number of guns. It doesn’t say that in there. But nonetheless, they abuse their authority, and they have been creating orders when they issue the permit, some of the judges, mandating that you carry only certain guns that you qualified with. Some of that is a blending over from policy for the RPO, the Retired Police Officer card that the state police had put a different standard on for what guns they can and can’t carry. So, some of it’s a blending, and some of it is abuse by judges.

Evan Nappen 29:15

But whatever the issue that led to your getting an order that restricted you, you still have an order that restricts you. I’ve gotten calls on it, and here’s the bottom line. Yeah, I know what the new law says, and I know what the old law says. But you are bound by a Court Order if you have a judge issued permit, and that court order, orders you within certain bounds and to do certain things, etc. You must follow the Court Order. Because if you break the Court Order, you can be found in contempt of court. In contempt of the order. You could lose your license, and you could even be prosecuted for it. Contempt of court and maybe even a gun charge with a claim that your license wasn’t valid, because you didn’t follow the court order. If you have a Court Order and you don’t like its terms, then like any other court order, you need to go back to the court and try to get the court to change it. Maybe the court will hear you and change it. Maybe they won’t. I don’t know. But the good news is on your renewal, you won’t have to deal with a judge anymore. Judges have been removed from the carry licensing process. A huge win for gun owners. Huge. Even though the rest of the bill is so terrible. With the judges gone, there are no court orders that can issue restricting individual licensees anymore.

Evan Nappen 30:59

So, your next carry permit will be a straight carry permit. It’s good for all handguns you have, and there’s no court order that can go along with it because it’s not done by a court anymore. The good news is that the judges are out. And if you currently have some half-assed permit that’s jamming away your rights, that shouldn’t be doing it, then you need to try to get a change by the court itself. Because otherwise you risk contempt and being in violation of the order that is specifically on you and addressed to your permit. So, be aware of that and take the steps needed to change it. Or if you’re not going to change it, then you’ve got to live with it. Live with it until your renewal. But, like I said, the good news is on your renewal, no more judges. Yeah!

Evan Nappen 32:04

Okay, let’s take a look here. We have one more quick one. Tell you what, I think we’re going to have to wait to get into much more detail. But let me just say I’ve gotten a lot of questions about the pistol brace rule. It’s been virtually, officially promulgated. It still technically, technically, has to get published. But it’s going to be. Probably maybe by the time you hear this show. By the next show, or maybe one after, we’re going to have all the details with specific actions. What New Jerseyans need to do. Updates on the litigation, and how to deal with the pistol brace issue and its effect on all of us. I don’t have time right now to get into it. Plus, there’s more information coming our way. So, just be aware that pistol brace deal is hit. They did waive the tax apparently. So, that’s good, but there’s so much garbage in it Page – 8 – of 8

as you could well expect. The choices that you’re going to want to make on this are going to take a lot more consideration. We’ll go through them in detail later in future podcasts. So, make sure you subscribe to Gun Lawyer. Make sure you are a member of our state Association because they’re sending out updates on all these things. Many times, I help to write them. So, you’re getting the emails right from the Association as to action that needs to be taken. So, join anjrpc.org. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 34:03

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E117_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 116-NJ Where Can I Carry, Where Not?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 116SUMMARY KEYWORDS

places, firearm, gun, new jersey, prohibited, law, carry, facility, sensitive, gun rights, permit, premises, casino, conduct, fight, lawyer, state, gun laws, anti, litigation

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:21

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, we’ve had a lot of excitement. We’ve had our court cases, rolling like tanks, into the federal court. I’m happy to say that at the last word here, we have gotten a Temporary Restraining Order. It is extremely exciting to see the Second Amendment come alive and the Bruen decision have its effect. The court actually granted restraints, right out of the box, on certain restrictions that are in the atrocious new Carry Killer, anti-civil rights law signed by Murphy. Because of how complex it is and how crazy these times are, I’ve been getting a lot of questions. Evan, where can I carry? What are the restrictions? What is the story? What did the lawsuit disable at the moment and put injunctions on so that what’s legal, what isn’t legal. That’s what I’m dedicating this show to.

Evan Nappen 01:39

I want to thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC), anjrpc.org. They are the premier gun rights group in New Jersey. They have litigation that is currently in federal court as well. They just won a victory by having their case consolidated with the other gun rights group case, in front of Judge (Renee Marie) Bumb (United States District Judge). Judge Bumb is a fantastic judge who really gets it, who really understands the Second Amendment, and who everyone is impressed with. Everyone in the pro-gun community, pro Second Amendment community is singing her praises. I see online that she is being called Saint Bumb, and I can fully get behind calling her Saint Bumb. Because it’s so refreshing and wonderful to see a judge that understands the Constitution, understands our rights, and is making our rights come alive to stop the ridiculous, absurd, dangerous, and treacherous laws that New Jersey has put upon its law-abiding gun owners.

Evan Nappen 03:01

So, looking at the most recent and up-to-date situation regarding where can you carry and where can you not carry. Well, this is what is called “sensitive places”. What the antis did was they took some language out of the Bruen decision where it talked about restrictions could be placed on certain sensitive places. But those sensitive places were very narrowly defined. They were traditional sensitive places. They were places that historically, there had been prohibitions on and made it clear that those places still would remain as being able to bar firearms from such places. But the anti-gunners saw that as some kind of opening that didn’t exist and decided to ban everything and anything they could come up with so that it would gut completely the utilitarian value at all of having a permit to carry. That was Page – 2 – of 8

the strategy. The strategy is to destroy carry by exploiting so-called “sensitive places”. So, New Jersey followed with this plan, probably came up with some think tank, Giffords or Bloomturd, or one of these anti-gunners. Here’s, a great idea. Let’s try to take this to the absolute level of absurdity and cause problems and try to cobble the utilitarian purpose and value of having a carry license.

Evan Nappen 04:42

Well, it’s not working. It’s not working, and the cases are filed. We’re winning, and we’ve just begun even in the victories. This should end up eventually just a complete and total victory for us, but for now, what are the places that you’re prohibited? What are the places that you’re restricted? You need to know them, and you need to understand them. Because this is the battleground, as we speak, on our rights, as to where we can have firearms. And it’s important, extremely important, to know that the sensitive places that we’re going to be discussing apply not only to handguns, not only to your carry permit, your permit to carry a handgun under New Jersey law. Not only to that, but it also applies to your long arms. It applies to rifles and shotguns that you are transporting with a Firearms ID Card, unloaded in your vehicle. It even applies to those. So, the old days when you would have much more freedom to transport your unloaded rifles and shotguns, as we’ve discussed on Gun Lawyer under the rifle and shotgun trap, you now have prohibitions that apply in the same way because they use the word “firearm”.

Evan Nappen 06:06

So, what we’re going to do today is we’re going to review the 25 “sensitive places”. I’m going to explain to you as best I can as to what can be explained on them, and I’m going to show you which ones have been enjoined. What has been put a stop to the enforcement by the court so that you are not at this moment, affected by those. We want them to stay dead. We want them to stay enjoined. We want them to stay declared unconstitutional. Let’s take a look at these places. What the law specifically says is, other than a brief incidental entry into properties, or lawfully carrying a firearm pursuant to the exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6. We’ve talked about those exemptions a lot. The following places, including in or upon any part of the building, grounds, or parking areas. What we’re going to review next includes these places and their buildings, their grounds, and parking areas.

Evan Nappen 07:20

What are these places? Well, number one, any place owned, leased or under the control of any state, county or municipal government, used for purposes of government administration, including but not limited to police stations. So, you can’t go up to your local police station with your unloaded rifle or shotgun in your car, in a case. Can’t do it. You can’t go to the police with your handgun and a carry permit, etc. This is still a “sensitive place”, a prohibited place. Two, a court room, a courthouse or any premises used to conduct court or judicial administrative proceedings, or functions. So, it’s not just a courthouse, and it’s not just a court room. But any premises used to conduct judicial or court administrative procedures or functions. It’s very broad. It’s very broad. We don’t know whether certain buildings are at some point being used for an administrative proceeding, because they’re having an administrative hearing, or they’re conducting some type of investigation, or there’s something going on that’s involving judicial or court administration. And if that premises, then that even includes the buildings, the grounds and the parking lot of such premises. There’s no way for you to even know whether that was going on or not. But you better not have your firearms in such a place. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 08:54

Additionally, prohibited, number three, state, county or municipal correctional or juvenile justice facility, a jail and any place maintained by the government entity for detention of criminal suspects or offenders. Any place that is holding offenders for detention and juvenile justice facilities, municipal, any type of place like that, the building, the grounds, and the premises are all off limits. So, you better know where all those places are as you travel through New Jersey, and not end up in a parking lot or on the grounds of any such place. A state-contracted Halfway House. So, that’s a private place that the state has contracted to be a Halfway House. How do you know that it’s a Halfway House? Do they have big signs “State Contracted Halfway House? No. They don’t hang out big signs and say it’s a halfway house. They keep it low key, but you better know. Because if you don’t, you’re in violation of sensitive places.

Evan Nappen 10:05

A location used as a polling place during the conduct of an election, places used for storage, and for tabulation of ballots and for the conducting of election fraud. No, I’m just kidding about that, about the election fraud part. I added that. It doesn’t say that. But it does prohibit conduct of elections and places used for storage and tabulation of ballots. Again, a prohibited place. Any place within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, a demonstration, or an event is held for which a government permit is required during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration, or event. So, how do you know whether any given public gathering has a government permit for, or for which one was required? And that you’re somehow, there’s a march going on with the government and you’re in your vehicle, you have a firearm, and you’re now in violation. How do you know that a permit was required or wasn’t required or that a public gathering was even going to take place? Doesn’t matter. The burden is on you to know because if you don’t, you’re looking at a serious, felony level, criminal violation for violating sensitive places.

Evan Nappen 11:25

Seven, a school, college, university or other educational institution, and on any school bus. So again, you better know every school, every college or university or educational institution. You can’t be going there for events, for sporting events or anything. If you’re going on school property and you have your gun, you’re in violation. And it’s a problem. Eight, a childcare facility, including a daycare center. There are plenty of daycare and childcare facilities. There’s no doubt. They don’t always have a sign. Some are private, and you don’t know. Well, you better know, because if you’re parking in that parking lot. If you’re on those premises, if you happen to go there, visiting a friend, whatever, boom, you’ve got a problem. Same with nursery schools, preschools, zoos, or summer camp. Well, I guess they all go together. I guess anyone that works in a nursery school, a preschool or a summer camp would put a zoo in the same category as those three. But I don’t know. Our legislators saw fit to do that. So, make sure again, those places, buildings, grounds, and they’re all thrown into number nine of sensitive places in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 12:35

Ten, a park, a beach, a recreational facility or area or playground owned or controlled by a state, county or local government unit or any part of such place, which is designated as a gun free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. How nice. So, any of these places, if Page – 4 – of 8

they’re designated a gun free zone, which we know better as a victim disarmament zone by the government authority, then you are prohibited from going to that place. Number 11. Youth sporting events, during and immediately preceding and following the conduct of the event, except that this procedure should not apply to participants of a youth sporting event in which firearm shooting is a competition. Oh, isn’t that nice? At least they didn’t ban guns from youth firearm shooting competitions. That would really suck to have to do a firearm shooting competition without a firearm. But even worse, how are we going to know whether there was such an event? How do we know what’s preceding or following? Now we have to keep track of every youth sporting event, anywhere we travel in New Jersey to make sure that we’re not there during or immediately preceding such event. How are we going to know this? I don’t know. But you better know it or you’re in trouble. Number 12, a publicly owned or leased library or museum. I’m happy to say that a publicly owned or leased library or museum has been enjoined by the TRO and is currently not enforceable. So, you can take your gun to the library or a museum. It’s not a prohibited place under Section 12, at the time of this broadcast. When we come back, we’re going to review the rest of these amazing and exciting prohibited places.

Speaker 3 14:52

For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fierce courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best- selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:06

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:21

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. This is Evan Nappen, and I want to remind you all about our great sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Every one of you should be a member of ANJRPC, anjrpc.org . Go there and join. They are on the frontlines battling for our gun rights. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. When you belong as a member, not only are you part of the fight, and you can be proud to be part of the fight, but also you get these email alerts that are up to the moment, immediate alerts, that tell you exactly what’s going on, and what legislation is immediately a threat. Things that threaten our rights. They give you actions that you can take immediately by simply pushing buttons and notifying legislators of our position. They keep us informed and in the fight. They’re currently on the forefront of the litigation against the Carry Killer, anti-civil rights bill. They are in litigation on New Jersey’s magazine ban. They’re in litigation on New Jersey’s assault firearm ban. They’re in litigation on my case, the “MU” case. They joined as an amicus in “MU”, challenging the Page – 5 – of 8

constitutionality of denying for so-called public health, safety, welfare. The Association is your active main force in fighting for your gun rights. So, please make sure you’re a member. It’s the least you can do if you believe in the Second Amendment and are in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 18:06

Looking back here at the sensitive places. They have number 13. Ready for this one, folks? A shelter for the homeless, emergency shelter for the homeless, basic center shelter program, shelter for homeless or runaway youth, Children’s Shelter, childcare shelter, shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission or the Department of Children and Families. Now you tell me, how do we know where every one of these shelters is located all through New Jersey? But we have to know. We have to know which parking lot may be attached to one of these homeless shelters or runaway youth shelters. We have to know any building or grounds. All that’s on us to somehow recognize where these things exist with no roadmap given, with no app on this. Hey, there’s a great. Maybe we need a New Jersey sensitive places app that immediately tells you if you’re nearing some prohibited place anywhere in the state. I don’t know but there it is. You better know it. Be careful.

Evan Nappen 19:29

Number 14, a community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries, terminal illnesses or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or the Department of Health. Great. We’re supposed to know where all those are, too. Just add it to the list. Do you know the developmental disabilities, head injuries, community residence places? Do you know about that place? I sure don’t. But I guess there is one somewhere, maybe lots, who knows? Maybe there’s one right now where I am? I don’t know. Maybe I’m in one. Maybe I’m in one right now, and I don’t even know it. I can probably use it. But the fact is, there it is. And this makes you want to go into one of those, just by trying to figure out the law.

Evan Nappen 20:20

Under 15, they have a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served and any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. Good news – that has been enjoined, that has been TROed. You can be in a bar or restaurant that serves alcohol with your firearm. So, that one is currently enjoined, which is really good, because I think we all need a drink trying to get through this stuff. But you better not be using marijuana, because under 16, a Class Five cannabis retailer or medical cannabis dispensary, including any consumption areas licensed or permitted by the cannabis regulatory commission. You cannot have your gun at the parking lot, premises, or in the building of any marijuana dispensary. In other words, the state government does not want you interfering with their illegal sale of drugs. Because cannabis is still prohibited federally, and New Jersey is one of the largest drug dealers in the United States, breaking federal law selling marijuana. The last thing they want is for you to exercise your Second Amendment right inside any of their facilities that are dealing drugs counter to federal law. So, beware of that.

Evan Nappen 21:45

Seventeen. A privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility, including but not limited to, a theater, stadium, a museum, an arena, a racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, Page – 6 – of 8

exhibits, games, or contests are held. That my friends has been TROed. That has been enjoined and is currently not enforceable. So, yeah, you can have your gun at the movies. And you can have your gun in these entertainment facilities. That prohibition has been enjoined. Then you are prohibited under 18 from being in a casino or related facilities, including but not limited to, appurtenant hotels (the word appurtenant hotels), retail premises, restaurant and bar facilities, and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property. Which means if you’re staying at a hotel casino, in Atlantic City, you cannot have your gun. You cannot have your gun at the casino or even in the hotel room. Even in restaurants and bars there. Even though restaurants and bars that are not in casinos have been enjoined. Not the casino and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property. So, any of those mall settings, other things that the casinos run. All those areas are still prohibited. And buildings and grounds. Even for parking. Remember, even parking at the casino parking lot. You have got a problem. You cannot have your gun anywhere. If it attaches and goes near the boardwalk, who knows how far that’s extending on the boardwalk casino. Do they own the boardwalk? Or does the town own it? Or there’s a city own it? I don’t know. These are all questions, and yet we better know. You’re going to have to figure it out. It’s on you to know.

Evan Nappen 23:56

Nineteen. A plant or operation that produces, converts, distributes, or stores energy or converts one form of energy to another. So, if you have a solar panel or you see a solar panel, run and hide if you have a gun because that’s converting energy. It does not say what the heck this is talking about. But whatever a plant or operation. An operation that produces or converts. Don’t cars convert gas into energy themselves, fuel. I mean what is it? This is so broad, so stupid, and so vague. But there you go. Don’t have your gun there, whatever this place is. Twenty. An airport or public transportation hub. Now think about that. How are we traveling with our guns? I guess we’re going to have to solely rely on Title 18 926 A of the federal law that preempts state prohibition on transport of firearms. You had better be strictly within the federal transport if you’re going to attempt to transport at these places. I would be very careful doing it because those are the places where they will X ray and check bags. When they find guns, the police get involved. Next thing you know, this is being put against you and you’re charged under this. I get plenty of airport cases and public transportation cases. This is only going to make that even worse. So, watch out.

Evan Nappen 25:21

Twenty-one. Here’s a good one. They just went to town on this one. You cannot have your firearm at a healthcare facility, including but not limited to, a General Hospital, a special hospital, psychiatric hospital, a public health center, a diagnostic center, a treatment center, a rehabilitation center, and extended care facility, a skilled nursing home (as opposed to what an unskilled nursing home I don’t know), a nursing home, intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, a chronic disease hospital and maternity hospital and outpatient clinic, a dispensary, Assisted Living Center, a home health care agency, a residential treatment facility, a residential healthcare facility, a medical office, or an ambulatory care facility. All those places. All their parking lots. All their buildings. All their grounds, wherever they may be. Whatever they are, you’re prohibited, and you better know it. Amazing.

Evan Nappen 26:27 Page – 7 – of 8

Twenty-two. A facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health other than a health care facility that provides addiction or mental health treatment or support services. Twenty-three. A public location used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial or educational purposes during such time as the location is used for that purpose. New Jersey is all excited because Netflix is coming to Eatontown and has purchased property at Fort Monmouth so they can do filming and produce shows. However, I hope none of them are going to be using guns. No more gun shows because you cannot use or have it there. You know what I guess this law is? This law is most likely. This part is probably what is known as the Alec Baldwin law. That must be what inspired them to put that in there. That’s what I would guess.

Evan Nappen 27:32

Okay, here’s 24, and this was a doozy. Number 24. Private property, including but not limited to residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional, or undeveloped property unless the owner has provided express consent, or has posted a sign indicating that it is permissible to carry on the premises a concealed handgun with a valid lawfully issued permit under NJS 2C:58-4, and provided that nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to affect the authority to keep or carry a firearm established under subsection e. of 39-6. Now think about this, folks. This section thankfully has been enjoined, and is part of the TRO, but just imagine how this works. Where you would have to, you would only be allowed on any private property if there was an express sign saying, Carry Permitees Welcome. Imagine that all through New Jersey. Is that what we’re going to see? Carry permits welcome, bring your gun, come on down. And unless it said that, unless they were advertising openly that fact, you were otherwise prohibited. Luckily, that atrocity has been TROed and enjoined.

Evan Nappen 28:55

Finally, number 25. Just in case they missed something with their whole list of horribles. 25 says any other place in which the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by any statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or state agency. So, all you need to know is every single rule or reg ever promulgated by a federal or state agency that had to do with firearm carrying. Good luck with that. That’s incorporated now into New Jersey’s law, so you can be charged with a crime in New Jersey. Those are all the so-called “sensitive places”. This is the anti-Second Amendment, anti-civil rights folks view of how to kill and limit and make useless a carry permit. You can see just how outrageous a system they put together here of these places, imposing knowledge that it would be a virtual impossibility for anyone to have a complete grasp of where you can actually carry it and not have a problem. As litigation continues, it’s vital that we knock this out and get it put in the trash can where this anti Second Amendment garbage belongs.

Evan Nappen 30:14

Now, there is another section in the law. It’s not under sensitive places, but it’s something that many people have concerns about. And that was the bill also prohibited transporting a firearm in the vehicle. What it said is that any person, other than a person carrying pursuant to subsection a., c., and l. of 2C:39-6, and that’s law enforcement and retired law enforcement, who’s otherwise authorized to carry or transport a firearm, notice not a handgun. So, if you had a Permit to Carry a Handgun or your Firearm Purchaser ID Card, shall not do so while in a vehicle in New Jersey. Unless, and then they say this, the handgun is unloaded and contained in a closed and securely fastened gun box or locked in the Page – 8 – of 8

trunk of a vehicle or in a gun case. So, what they prohibited was transport in a vehicle, and they made it so that particularly if you have a carry license on your handgun, particularly now, you could not have that loaded on your person in a vehicle. We were calling that and still do; we call that the “Carjacker Protection” law. They wanted to protect carjackers, of course. So, they didn’t get injured. They wanted law-abiding citizens to be victims of carjackers, violent attacks. So, they don’t want you armed in your vehicle to be able to defend yourself. That’s why they have this law in place. But that law has been enjoined. So, luckily, you can now transport with your carry permit your loaded handgun in a motor vehicle. That is currently enjoined under the TRO as well.

Evan Nappen 32:00

Hopefully, this gives you a better understanding of what we’re up against and what carry is, in terms of New Jersey’s treacherous gun laws, but we’re making progress. We’re knocking a lot of these things out. I’m sure we’re going to do tremendously better even as we get provision after provision declared unconstitutional. It’s taking time. It’s taking work. But these are the glorious times in a glorious fight, that we can win, so that our kids and our grandkids can look back and say, hey, we were the ones that fought it. We are the ones that got them freedom, and this is how we did it. This is what we were up against. But for now, I don’t want any of you to become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. I don’t want any of you to become a “law-abiding criminal”. This is what New Jersey does. So, be careful, be discreet. Remember to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure you have your membership in place, so that you’re part of the fight. This is Evan Nappen, reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 33:23

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E116_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 115-Thousands Turned into Felons- FPICs VoidAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 115SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, new jersey, law, expungement, criminals, fight, lawyer, rights, gun, folks, crime, commitment, letter, subsection, gun laws, gun rights, license, firearms, affects, serial number

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:20

I’m attorney Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, first of all, I want to thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are a fantastic organization that are fighting for our rights as we speak. They’re involved in major litigation over these ridiculous laws that have been placed upon us in New Jersey. And that’s one of the things that I need to discuss today that is critically important. So many people are completely unaware of this, but you better know it, and if you are victimized by this, you’re going to need to take action.

Evan Nappen 01:08

New Jersey has effectively invalidated and made void 10s of 1000s of Firearm Purchaser Identification Cards, and it is a felony level offense, a Fourth-Degree crime, up to 18 months in state prison. That’s a year and a half, folks, for those that don’t do math in state prison now, if you fail to surrender your card, if you have been affected by this ridiculous change. This change is just a complete departure from what New Jersey has had for years and years and years. Let me explain to you what has happened. This was part of the atrocious Murphy anti-civil rights bill that passed, A4769, that also contained all the anti-carry provisions so that New Jersey tries to keep its law-abiding citizens as victims of violent crime and not defenders.

Evan Nappen 02:29

Well, baked into that cake was a surprise that you need to know. It not only changed the law with regard to carry to gut any utilitarian function that a carry permit had, but it also added a host of disqualifiers. Disqualifiers that fall under NJS 2C:58-3.c. That statute is important because it is the same standard for Handgun Purchase Permits, Firearms ID Cards, and Permits to Carry a Handgun. It is the listing of the specific reasons that one can be denied their right to keep and bear arms and be denied the right to have a license to acquire a firearm or to carry a firearm, etc. In these disqualifiers is a new disqualifier that modified, changed, amended, the old disqualifier, and it involves what is mental health.

Evan Nappen 03:52

Now, I’m going to explain exactly how this is done and what New Jersey did, but in order to understand that you need to understand how the old law worked and why so many people are affected by this. Thousands and thousands of people are going to be and immediately are affected by this and are at Page – 2 – of 7

risk of serious criminal charges. Originally, in New Jersey, if you ever had an involuntary mental health commitment or a voluntary mental health commitment, in other words, you checked yourself into a mental health facility to get help. Or if you had been mandated by a court to get mental health treatment in a mental health facility. Then New Jersey had a law that said you’re disqualified for having guns unless you produce proof, medical proof, a doctor’s letter, other medical proof, etc. from a psychiatrist or medical doctor, etc, that you’re not suffering from that particular disease or disability that would make you unsafe for the handling of firearms.

Evan Nappen 05:10

Thousands and thousands of folks did that very thing. Now, even in the old days, prior to this law being changed, individuals that did that were covered as far as New Jersey law was concerned. We’ve even discussed on the show that federal law didn’t really care about that. Federal law was only focused on folks that had involuntary commitments, and the only way you could restore your rights under federal law for an involuntary was by getting a mental health expungement. It wouldn’t matter if you had 100 doctors saying you’re okay. Federal law wouldn’t care. You need to have a mental health expungement. But Federal Law never, and still, to this day, they don’t care about voluntary commitments, only involuntary commitments, where you’re forced.

Evan Nappen 06:10

But New Jersey always cared about all commitments but gave the escape valve of simply getting proof from a doctor that you’re okay. Well, New Jersey just changed that law. It was signed into law on December 22, 2022. It’s A4769. It modified NJS 2C:58-3., specifically subsection c. where all the disabilities are, and added number 13, added number 13. Lucky 13 for the disqualifier. Let me read you exactly what it says. It says, and this is a preface. A handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card (or for that matter, by the way, any permit to carry a handgun, because they specifically referenced the statute) shall not be issued, and here it is under 13.

Evan Nappen 07:15

To any person who has previously been voluntarily admitted to inpatient treatment or involuntarily committed to inpatient or outpatient treatment, unless the court has expunged the person’s record. So, all the people who had gotten a Firearms ID Card before, who simply had a voluntary commitment to a mental health facility. By the way, you could have voluntarily committed yourself in for rehabilitation. That still counts. Or other mental health services where you had gotten your Firearms ID Card and still have it right now, because you supplied a doctor’s letter that said you were okay. That is no longer valid. The only way you can be legal for your ID card or carry permit or pistol purchase permit is if you received a mental health expungement, folks. A full-blooded, full-fledged expungement. Without that expungement and having had a voluntary commitment, you are disqualified to having your firearm license under New Jersey law as we speak. This affects thousands upon thousands of Firearm ID Card holders in New Jersey, and for that matter, outside of New Jersey. Because non-residents were also able to be issued and still are, a Firearm Purchaser ID cards. Better known as, what we call in the trade, FPICs. Your FPIC is now invalid.

Evan Nappen 09:25 Page – 3 – of 7

Do you know what the law says about invalid FPICs? Well, let me read you, in NJS 2C:58-3. You go down to subsection f. and a number of paragraphs down you’ll read this. “A firearm purchaser Identification card shall be void if the holder becomes subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of the section,” (that now includes the new subsection 13 that I just read to you) “whereupon the card shall be returned within five days by the holder to the superintendent, who shall then advise the licensing authority.” In other words, within five days of Governor Murphy signing this bill on December 22, 2022, you were mandated by law to surrender your Firearms ID Card to the superintendent, meaning superintendent of the state police, who would then advise your local police of the surrender. Get a load of this folks. “Failure of the holder to return the firearm purchaser identification card to the superintendent within five days shall be an offense under subsection a. of N.J.S. 2C:39-10.” That offense is a criminal offense. A criminal charge of a Fourth-Degree crime. New Jersey doesn’t use the word felony. But crimes technically are the same in jurisdictions that talk about felonies as a felony, because it carries over one year jail. It carries 18 months in state prison. Therefore, you’re facing, for your failure to turn in the card, up to 18 months in state prison, being a convicted felon, becoming a certain person who is prohibited from firearm possession and being licensed.

Evan Nappen 11:42

New Jersey has created this. There’s no grandfathering. There was no time period to adjust. It took effect immediately this section. So, if any of you out there have a Firearm ID card that you have obtained because you supplied medical proof that you’re okay, that you’re fine, even though you had a voluntary commitment, your card is no longer valid. And your failure to turn it in is a felony level offense, folks. So, let me just tell you, that is a big risk out there. Those of you that listen to Gun Lawyer now know it. Those who don’t and maybe aren’t aware of this, well, I’ll tell you right now. If they reapply, let’s say to make a change of address or to get a new handgun purchase permit and this pops up, then they’re going to be in for a big surprise. A big surprise in terms of not only getting denied their license, but being held to account as to why they didn’t turn in their license and violated this criminal statute. And if they answer these questions wrong, thinking they’re okay when they’re not, then they could face falsification of the application charges. You can see all the ramifications that are going to flow from this. This is serious. It’s a huge problem. The only solution to restoring your rights is a mental health expungement. Now, as you know, I’m a practicing attorney, and I have my firm in Eatontown. It’s Evan F. Nappen Attorney at Law, and as a major component of our work, we do mental health expungements. You can check out my website at EvanNappen.com. Go to Expungements, and you can see about getting a mental health expungement if you need one.

Evan Nappen 13:44

That’s the only way under New Jersey law now to get your rights restored. If you’ve had a voluntary commitment, or an involuntary commitment, and an involuntary commitment includes inpatient or outpatient treatment, if it was involuntary. Of course, the voluntary commitment, these are very far-reaching laws. I’m just thinking about how many thousands and thousands of persons have been issued these cards that now are subject to this ridiculous disability and prohibition and have been given no notice, no warning, no grandfathering, no period of time to comply. Nothing. So, beware. If you have an issue with this, call me at the office, go to my website at EvanNappen.com Get in contact with me, Page – 4 – of 7

and we can figure out what we need to do to help you and change your particular circumstances from this threat that is against your rights and your freedom here. It’s really a shame. But beware.

Evan Nappen 15:00

If you know anybody that is affected by this, make sure they’re aware, because this is just going to cause a ton of grief for honest, law-abiding citizens. Because that’s all New Jersey gun laws ever focus on. It never does anything about crime, of course. It’s just going to be law-abiding, licensed citizens. This is truly focused on licensed citizens and turning them into criminals. Those that had originally obtained this license are now turned into disqualified persons, and then subject to the crime of omission for failing to turn it in. By the way, your failure to turn it in being a crime in and of itself, can then be a basis to seize your guns. Because not only are you disqualified for your license, but getting a felony level criminal charge, also gets your gun seized while you’re at it. So, New Jersey has really stacked it here. Beware. When we come back, I have a number of really interesting letters that I know you’re going to enjoy hearing about because I sure enjoyed reading them.

Speaker 3 15:08

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:35

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 17:50

Hey, okay, Evan Nappen here back on Gun Lawyer. I really appreciate all my listeners. Remember to subscribe to Gun Lawyer. You can get it anywhere you get your podcasts. This way you get the inside information. You get to know the stuff they’re not telling you and preempt the potential problems that not knowing will cause. Let everybody know about the show because you’d be surprised. Just this week, a person called. Again, they had listened to the show, and they were going to have a disaster upon them. Because they knew, I was able to help them and shut down what was guaranteed to be a huge mess, a huge mess. That always makes me so happy to know that we’re able to save people from falling into these traps that New Jersey sets for law-abiding citizens. They don’t worry about crime, of course, and criminals. They’re on the run there. Do whatever they want. That’s all fine. Let them in, let them out. But gun owners are the ones targeted and honest citizens. They’re the ones I want to protect, and that’s why I have a unique practice in a way. I only defend law-abiding criminals, you see, Page – 5 – of 7

and that’s what happens when you’re a Gun Lawyer in New Jersey. But I’m proud to do it, and I’m happy to help all you good people out.

Evan Nappen 19:28

One of the other things about helping folks out is sponsoring this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA affiliate for New Jersey, and they’re the top gun rights organization in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. If you care about your gun rights, you need to do this. They’re the ones that have a full-time lobbyist down at Trenton, keeping us on top of all this nonsense going on and being able to keep us in the fight. Look, we’re in a desperate, tough fight. I know that. We have politics against us. We are the underdogs. But it’s the American tradition, right? We root for the underdog. So, the best way to root for ourselves here, the best way to fight despite the odds, and we will win because truth is on our side. You know that. We will win. It’s by unifying and having a great organization like ANJRPC, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org. and get your membership. Get those alerts, get the newsletter, get your voice heard and be part of an organization. They’re at the forefront of the litigation against these atrocities that we discuss here. Litigating against Murphy’s anti-civil rights bill, against the magazine ban, against the assault weapon ban, etc. In courts now, using the Bruen decision and other case law to get our rights back. I know, ultimately, we’re going to be successful, but we can only be successful with individuals like yourself, being part of the team, and helping. So, go to anjrpc.org. and join today, if you’re not already a member.

Evan Nappen 21:33

Let me also tell you, I get great letters. And man, I wish I could read every letter that I get, really. You folks are wonderful, and your letters are great. I do read every letter that is sent to me, but we only have a limited amount of time, of course. But I do want to read this letter and some others that just hit me as really important and very significant in demonstrating exactly what we’re talking about here. About how these laws affect the law-abiding and not the criminal. So, I have this letter. It’s says, Evan, you discussed this on Episode 95 after receiving my letter about this NSN firearm. I thought you’d like to see the letter that I just sent to the entire legislature asking them to correct this unintended consequence. Keep up the fight! Regards, Bobby.

Evan Nappen 22:35

Bobby really, really did a magnificent job here., and I just want to share his letter because it’s more than just a political statement to a legislature to do the right thing. It is an explanation of actual harm caused by their actions. Listen to what Bobby wrote. Dear Senators and Assemblypersons. I’m writing to seek your assistance in correcting the unintended consequences of legislation you enacted earlier this year that was made effective on July 5, 2022. Specifically, I’m referring to N.J.S. 2C:39-9(n) which states: (emphasis added) “n. Transporting a manufactured firearm without a serial number. In addition to any other criminal penalties provided under law, a person who transports, ships, sells, or disposes of a firearm manufactured or otherwise assembled using a firearm frame or firearm receiver as defined in subsection k of this section which is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer, including but not limited to a firearm manufactured or otherwise assembled from parts purchased or otherwise obtained in violation of subsection k. of this section, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.” Page – 6 – of 7

Evan Nappen 23:59

That’s up to 10 years, folks, in state prison. Ten years. Now, this section was just atrocious and was recently raised to a First-Degree charge by the way. So, it’s now up to 20 years in state prison. But either way, it’s such absurd amounts of jail for this. Then Bobby writes this. This affects me as I own a pump action 12-gauge shotgun that my father purchased in 1956, just after his 18th birthday. This firearm was manufactured before federal law in 1968 required that it have a serial number on it. My attorney has advised me that should I take it out of my home it would subject me to three to five years in state prison. And another bill (A4557) was introduced since this law was made effective that would increase the charge for violation of this law to a crime of the first degree. And that did pass as well, by the way, putting this offense on the same level as murder or aggravated sexual assault. Prior to the enactment of the law, I used this firearm for sporting clays in both New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Evan Nappen 25:18

My father purchased this shotgun at Sears and Roebuck on October 10, 1956, for $48.88 plus 33 cents for shipping. He has a picture, folks, of the actual receipt from Sears from 1956 for the purchase of this shotgun with no serial number. Then he has a wonderful picture from December of 1963 of his dad and him and his deer on the back porch of their home in Irvington, New Jersey, just before his third birthday. Look at the history, the rich family history, of the shotgun here. This firearm is a family heirloom and I’m hoping that the law you passed to address so-called “ghost guns” wasn’t meant to preclude me from continuing to use this 66-year-old shotgun as I did before this law was enacted. I cannot transport, ship, sell or dispose of this firearm. What am I to do with it? Why is the firearm suddenly so dangerous that if I were to take it from my home, I could ruin my life and spend 20 years in prison? Would any of you be willing to take the steps necessary to correct this unintended consequence, which is clearly unconstitutional and, in effect, renders my firearm useless? I would welcome the opportunity to speak or meet with any of you in favor of this.

Evan Nappen 27:02

Let me just say. There’s only one thing that I disagree with Bobby on and that is that it was an unintended consequence. I think he’s giving them more credit than they deserve. I think they know damn well what they’re doing, or are simply reckless, reckless in their behavior. It’s one or the other. I don’t think it was a simple, honest mistake. I really don’t. It’s absolutely outrageous. If it is, then they’re not reading these laws. They’re not giving time for debate on these laws. They’re not making it clear, getting any type of impact as to what it does. They don’t really care that it turns law-abiding citizens into criminals, because this is one of many, many laws. Just about every gun law that New Jersey has affects law-abiding citizens. Affects law-abiding citizens enormously more than it affects any criminal.

Evan Nappen 28:04

Look, if by some weird, crazy, chance some criminal actually gets charged with one of the gun laws. Oh, that’d be shocking, but just make believe it happened. Well, that’s going to be the first thing that is plea bargained away, folks. First thing. They’re not going to enforce the gun laws on the criminals. It’s the honest citizens that possess their grandfather’s shotgun purchased in 1956 and has been handed down as a family heirloom. If they happen to go hunting one day, in the family tradition with his kids even, and he ends up being charged with one of the highest level of crimes that New Jersey has to Page – 7 – of 7

offer for doing that very thing. This is the outrage and the absurdity. Yet another example of what New Jersey does to good people, and these legislators should be ashamed of themselves. They are not upholding their oath of office. They’re not doing their job and protecting our rights, our liberties. It’s just the opposite. They’re unbelievably arrogant about it, and blatant about their violation of our rights and rejoicing in screwing with us and turning us into criminals. It is an outrageous situation.

Evan Nappen 29:38

This is why the fight has to continue. We can’t give up. Eternal vigilance. We won’t give up. We’re fighting. We’re getting the word out. We have great organizations like the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. This is part of it. Make sure you belong. Make sure you belong to the Association. Make sure you belong to any other gun group that you feel is in your interest to join. You don’t have to just join one. But this is critical, critical. Take steps. When you get those alerts, let the legislators know. Make sure you get out and vote. Doing these civic duties. You may think it’s small, and it doesn’t count, but it does count. It makes a difference. We can get our rights back. The fight is on. And on the one hand, these may be the glorious times. The glorious times that our grandchildren and such can look back on. Hey, they fought and got our rights back. And we can be proud of that. Because we’re not going to give up. It’s these fights and these absurdities. They are the challenges for us right now, and you’re all part of this. So, just remember, as I’ve stated before, that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 31:19

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E115_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 114-The Rifle and Shotgun TrapAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 114SUMMARY KEYWORDS

exemptions, firearm, handgun, place, cased, law, unloaded, gun, state, exempted, new jersey, sensitive, firearms, facility, id card, shotgun, subsection b, rifle, lawyer, carry permit

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome Gun Lawyer. I want everyone to be aware of the traps, multiple traps, that have been created by this new atrocity, this so-called 4769 Bill. The traps are actually more hidden and greater than you may suspect, and it’s not just about carrying a handgun. This new law has essentially gutted the utilitarian value of a Firearms ID Card when it comes to transport of firearms. I’m going to explain this in detail. Because most folks do not understand this, are clueless about this, and are simply going to be sitting ducks to be turned into criminals, which is what New Jersey does. It is constantly looking to turn law-abiding citizens into criminals. And it is because of an agenda that is not just anti-gun, and not just anti-gun rights, but anti-you and me. They want us disenfranchised of our rights for the entire country, and by turning us into felons, you lose your gun rights for the entire country.

Evan Nappen 01:48

It doesn’t matter how stupid and unreasonable and idiotic the state gun law is, or the state law is that you violated. If it’s a felony level offense, you’re screwed for the whole country. So, you need to be aware of these traps. I’m going to do a little bit of a deep dive here and discuss the so-called “sensitive places” section of the bill and its far-reaching implications, not just for handguns. Before I do that, I want to first of all, thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, for supporting the show so that I’m able to continue to tell law-abiding gun owners like yourself about these things. To warn you so that you don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun law. At least folks that listen to Gun Lawyer are going to be smart, and they’re going to know where these dangers are.

Evan Nappen 03:01

As a preface to this, the first thing everyone needs to understand is how our long arm possession system worked prior to this bill. Prior to this bill, the prohibition on possession of rifles and shotguns is under NJS 2C:39-5.c. Under that section, it says no person shall possess any rifle or shotgun unless having first obtained a Firearm Purchaser Identification Card. The next section says you can’t have the rifle or shotgun loaded unless otherwise permitted by law. Now, the exemptions to 39-5. are found in 39-6. Now in 39-5.c. is where the section is about rifles and shotguns that I just reviewed with you, and under Subsection b. of 39-5 is a prohibition on handguns. Page – 2 – of 9

Evan Nappen 04:09

The handgun prohibition in b. said no person shall possess any handgun unless having first obtained a Permit to Carry a Handgun. The same exemptions under 39-6. applied to the handgun prohibition and applied to the rifle and shotgun prohibition. But the difference always was that if you had a handgun, and prior to anyone essentially being able to get a carry permit prior to Bruen, when you were transporting your handgun, you had to transport strictly within the exemptions under 39-6., which are very narrow exemptions, unless you had a Permit to Carry a Handgun. If you had a long arm, a rifle or shotgun, you could transport lawfully within the exemptions, but you could also transport, as long as your rifle shotgun was unloaded, you could transport beyond the exemptions if you had a Firearms ID Card. Because the Firearms ID Card is what exempted your unlawful possession right in the face of the statute under 39-5.c., just like possession of a handgun if you had a carry permit. Well, that exempted your possession of the handgun without needing to go to the exemptions, but since so few people had carry licenses, they could not get that protection. They had to strictly rely on the exemptions. So, that’s how New Jersey’s system essentially worked.

Evan Nappen 05:46

Then lo and behold, Bruen, the Bruen decision comes along and makes it so that citizens are actually able to get carry permits. When citizens got carry permits, that then exempted them right away from the 39-5.b. prohibition without the necessity of having to rely upon exemptions, because now you have a carry license, you see. It made it the same as for rifles and shotguns if you had a Firearms ID Card. The only difference is with a carry permit for a handgun, you could actually have your handgun loaded. Because with rifles and shotguns, you weren’t allowed to have it loaded, unless you were otherwise permitted by law, which meant you were somehow under an exemption for having it loaded, but unloaded, you’re always fine.

Evan Nappen 06:36

Well, now the entire thing has been turned on its ear. What we have is a section in the new law that creates a whole bunch of so-called “sensitive places” where possession of your handgun, most people are looking at in terms of handguns, are otherwise prohibited even if you have a carry permit. You’re still not allowed to have a handgun there, and you’re not allowed to have a handgun there, in many of these places, even if it’s unloaded and in a case. Okay, even for that. There are certain exemptions that are narrow, and we’re going to review them. But basically, they gutted the usefulness of a carry permit by creating all the “sensitive places”. But in the writing of the law, they didn’t just say handgun. They said firearm and now that put the Firearms ID Card into the same category and you end up with the same sensitive place restrictions on mere possession, unloaded by the way, of a rifle or shotgun.

Evan Nappen 08:00

So, even if you have an unloaded, cased, rifle or shotgun, your Firearms ID Card in the sensitive places no longer protects you. The only exemption now, the only one for long arms, are the exemptions under 39-6.e. and f. We are going to review those. E. is essentially in your home, and f. is hunting or at the target range. If you’re outside of that, even with an unloaded rifle or shotgun where you used to be legal, and you’re in any of these varied and wide and poorly defined “sensitive places”, well, then you’re now guilty. You can be charged and convicted of a Third-Degree crime in which you face up to five years in state prison. Even though your gun is unloaded. Even though you have a Firearms ID Card. It Page – 3 – of 9

doesn’t matter. These all come under what we are calling now Section 7. of the bill. The reason we’re calling it Section 7. is it has not been put into the statutes yet so that we know what New Jersey statutory number it has. It doesn’t have a number assigned to it yet. So, we call it from the bill, Section 7., which is an entirely new section of law.

Evan Nappen 09:39

Here’s what it says. It says, “(New section) Places where the carrying a firearm or destructive device is prohibited.” It goes on to say that, except as otherwise provided, and we’re going to get into that. It’s a crime of the Third Degree for any person, other than a person lawfully carrying a firearm within the authorized scope of an exemption under 39-6., to knowingly carry a firearm, folks, not a handgun. Not just handguns, a firearm. It’s a crime in the Second Degree, by the way, if you carry a destructive device. I don’t know why you’d be having a destructive device with you, but plainly, it’s common for rifles, shotguns, particularly shotguns going hunting, etc. And it is prohibited in any of the following places that we’re going to review now, including, by the way, any part of the buildings, grounds or parking areas.

Evan Nappen 10:45

So, buildings, grounds, and parking areas of everything we’re going to review next is a prohibited place for the firearm possessor. The first place is a place owned, leased, or under the control of any state, county or municipal government used for the purpose of government administration, including but not limited to, police stations. So, if you have your unloaded rifle or shotgun in a case, and you want to stop by the police station to put in for another permit, you can’t do that. It is a sensitive prohibited place, including the parking lot for the police. There’s no exemption for that. A courthouse, a court room, or any premises used to conduct judicial or court administrative proceedings, or function. So, if you’re planning on going to the target range or hunting after court and you park your vehicle in a court parking lot, you are in violation, even though you have a Firearms ID Card. Even though it’s cased. Even though it’s unloaded. No good. Illegal. Crime of the Third Degree. It wasn’t before, but now it is. It applies to long arms, not just your handgun. A state, county, or municipal correctional or juvenile justice facility. A jail or any other place maintained. Any of this or any other place maintained by or for a government entity for the detention of criminal suspects or offenders.

Evan Nappen 12:25

Remember, the parking lot for such a place is covered. The grounds for such a place and the buildings, all broad strokes. For any of these places. Good luck identifying any one of those places. You better know where they might be holding a prisoner or what might be being used for juvenile justice purposes, even in some commercial building. But if it’s there, you’re barred from even having your car with an unloaded, cased hunting shotgun. Nope, your Firearms ID Card will not help you here. A state-contracted halfway house is a prohibited spot. A location being used as a polling place during the conduct of election and places used for storage or tabulation of ballots. I hope you know any place that might be a storage facility for ballots. Because if your car is there, if you’re there with an unloaded rifle or shotgun, at that same facility, and don’t even know ballots are being stored or tabulated there. Especially given the last election. Who knew where the ballets were being tabulated. That’s part of the problem. You’re in trouble. Page – 4 – of 9

Evan Nappen 13:41

If you’re within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, a demonstration or event is held, for which a government permit is required, during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration or event. I guess you now have to check for any public gathering, whether it’s got a permit or not issued by the government, as to whether you’re legal to have your unloaded long arm in your vehicle by there. Even though you have a Firearms ID Card, that’s now a prohibited sensitive place. A school, a college, a university or other educational institution and on any school bus. Now educational institutions are undefined. Does that include your house of worship where they teach Sunday school or Hebrew school? Is that an educational institution? Any school bus? If they’re parking a school bus in a private lot, is that the parking lot for a school bus now? Because it’s grounds and buildings and parking facilities, and it’s any college or university. You had better watch out while you’re driving through these places. Stopping in these places. You’re no longer given the ability to lawfully utilize your Firearms ID card in the manner that we’ve been used to.

Evan Nappen 15:20

A nursery school is covered. A preschool, a zoo, or a summer camp. I hope you don’t park at the Zoo. Or if this facility is a summer camp, and you didn’t know it. Hey, this is all part of it. These are all sensitive places in New Jersey now that are considered and banned for firearm possession. At a park, a beach, a recreational facility or area playground owned or controlled by a state, county or local government unit or any part of such place, which is designated as a gun-free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. Well, I hope you know all that before you venture forth there whether it’s a problem, because guess whose responsibility it is to know? You! That’s right.

Evan Nappen 16:17

How about this one – at youth sports events, during and immediately preceding the conduct of the event. So, this is any youth sporting event, anywhere? Where? I don’t know. It doesn’t say. It doesn’t even mean it has to be at a school. It’s just a sporting event. You’re parked in the parking lot, or you went to pick up your kid with your gun, even though you had a Firearms ID Card. You can just see how many problems this is going to cause. Oh, but they did exempt for U.S. sporting events, firearm shootings competitions. Wasn’t that nice of them? Imagine a U.S. sporting event for shooting, but you’re not allowed to bring your gun. That would really be tricky. A publicly owned or leased library or museum. Don’t park at the library. Don’t go over there to the museum. You’re barred. You’re banned, even for your rifle or shotgun.

Evan Nappen 17:23

A shelter for the homeless. Emergency shelter for the homeless. Basic center of shelter program for runaway youth. A children’s center. A childcare shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission and Department of Children and Families. I hope you know every one of them and where they’re located. A community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries, terminal illnesses or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or Department of Health. Make sure you get your. You could actually live next to one of these places. How does this work? A restaurant or bar where alcohol is served. Remember parking or grounds or other facilities. So, it’s a restaurant or bar where alcohol is served or any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. Page – 5 – of 9

Evan Nappen 18:23

A Class 5 Cannabis retailer or medical cannabis dispensary, including any consumption areas licensed or permitted by the Cannabis Regulatory Commission. A privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility within the state. Think about that. A private or public entertainment facility, including but not limited to a theater, a stadium, a museum, an arena, a racetrack or other places where performances, concerts, exhibits, games, and contests are held. A casino and related facilities. Don’t go parking in the casino parking lot with your unloaded, cased gun that you’re going to go to the range with or are going to go hunting with or may have come from hunting or going to the range. Because even though your Firearms ID Card may have protected you in the past, it doesn’t anymore. For sure, it does not. It is now a sensitive place, officially, even in the parking lot.

Evan Nappen 19:35

A plant that produces, converts, distributes or stores energy or converts one form of energy to another. What the heck? A plant or operation that converts, distributes or stores energy or converts one form of energy to another. So, is that just a solar panel located anywhere? It stores energy and converts it. Is it a gas station? Doesn’t that store energy? I mean, what is covered by this? This is so broad and vague and undefined. But it’s a sensitive place, and you better know it. Because otherwise it’s Third Degree, and it’s up to five years in state prison for you and loss of your gun rights. An airport or public transportation hub. They’re not just talking about sensitive places, the restricted zone. They mean even the parking lot for the airport. How do you even transport your firearm to the airport to travel with it? You are going to have to heavily rely on the federal law under Title 18 926 A, and hope that it covers you. There are all kinds of problems with that coverage going airports.

Evan Nappen 20:49

If you don’t believe it, look at my case, Greg Revell, and what we had to go through there with the Greg Revell case over airports. It’s not so cut and dried and now it’s made specifically a sensitive place. We’re not done yet folks. A healthcare facility, including but not limited to the general hospital, a special hospital, psychiatric hospital, a public health center, a diagnostic center, a treatment center, a rehabilitation center, extended care facility, a skilled nursing home, a nursing home, intermediate care facility, a tuberculosis hospital, a chronic disease hospital, a maternity hospital, outpatient clinic, a dispensary, assisted living center, a home health care agency, a residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office, or an ambulatory care facility. All those are sensitive places, buildings and grounds and parking. Good luck. Good luck, not falling into the trap. We’re still not done because a facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health, other than a healthcare facility, that provides addiction or mental health treatment with support services.

Evan Nappen 22:20

Number 23. A public location being used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial or educational purposes, during the time such location is being used for that purpose. Well, I hope you know that that’s what’s going on. Because I don’t know how you’re going to know that. But you better. Finally, here how about this. Private property, including but not limited to, residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional or undeveloped property unless the owner has provided Page – 6 – of 9

express consent, express consent, or has posted a sign saying it is permissible to carry on the premises a concealed handgun with a valid and lawfully issued permit, providing that nothing shall be construed to stop you from having it in your home.

Evan Nappen 23:16

So, in order for you to have a long arm, rifle or shotgun, this private property has to say that I can carry a handgun there to make it legal for me to have my cased, unloaded rifle or shotgun on private property. They have to say it’s good for handguns because they just conflate the two in this. Any other place in which the carrying of firearm is prohibited by statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or state agency. I hope you know every single rule, by every federal and state agency that ever said, no guns allowed. Because if you screw that up, even though you have your Firearms ID Card and your hunting shotgun and his cased, unloaded, it doesn’t matter. New Jersey says you’re a felon, and you’re looking at five years in prison. When we get back, I have more to tell you that you can be warned about just how insane this new law is.

Speaker 3 24:31

For over 30 years attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 25:45

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 26:01

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. Again, I’d like to thank our sponsors, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s anjrpc.org. They are currently, right now as we’re speaking, engaged in massive litigation, trying to end this insanity that we’re reviewing right now. Trying to get, and hopefully we will get, an injunction and stop this insane intrusion on our rights. They’re on the front lines for you and me. In the courts, battling this and in the legislature. This is why you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It is the minimum thing you should do if you care about your gun rights. Join ANJRPC – that membership is critical. You’ll be able to stay on top of the latest legal developments, and you know that you’re doing your part in the fight. They’re the state affiliate of the NRA for New Jersey, and they are the premier gun group in the state that you must belong to. So go to anjrpc.org. Make sure you are a member and remain a member as we are engaged in the fight of our lives. But this is a glorious fight. Because once we win here, once we get through this Page – 7 – of 9

hurdle, this battle, this post-Bruen test of our wills, we are going to be so strong. We’re going to have established firmly, once and for all, our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey and start turning back the abuses that had been heaped upon us. ANJRPC is at the forefront helping that to occur. So, make sure you join.

Evan Nappen 28:09

So, what are the exemptions here? How do they work? Well, it says a person other than a person lawfully carrying a firearm within the scope of the exemption under subsection a., c. and l. of 39-6. Get a load of this one. Can’t transport a loaded handgun in a vehicle. Now this is what’s called subsection b. of the new section. This is the vehicle prohibition itself, which is separate from the 25 paragraphs that we just reviewed of sensitive places. This is subsection b. vehicle prohibition. And in this one, it’s all about handguns, strictly. So, don’t confuse the vehicle one with the other sensitive places because it’s very convoluted here. The handgun exemption, which I think is just something I want to point out to you, says even with a carry permit, you cannot have your handgun unloaded on your person in the vehicle. Unless you’re one of these exempted parties. Even with a carry permit, and this is the section we call the “Car Jacker Protection” law right there. That’s the Car Jacker Protection law so that you can’t protect yourself in your vehicle.

Evan Nappen 29:33

But I want to point out that there are exemptions, but those exemptions are narrow. They’re only for a., c. and l. A and c. are various law enforcement officers and government folks, and of course, they exempt the elites themselves. They added a new provision so the prosecutors and judges can carry to protect themselves, but not average citizens. You see, they don’t qualify. They’re not elite enough. You’re right. So, the exempted persons are put here as to who can defend themselves while in a vehicle and have exemption to this and that is a., c., and l. A and c. are law enforcement, and l. is retired law enforcement. But I wanted to point out that in their zest for putting in these exemptions, they forgot to exempt b., subsection b. of 39-6. If you look at subsection b., you’ll see that subsection b. is an exemption for a law enforcement officer employed outside the state of New Jersey. So, they forgot to or eliminated non-resident law enforcement officers from other states where there’s an exemption under subsection b. of 39-6, but it’s not included here. And so even those officers that are exempted under b. normally where they would be engaged in official duties, and they first notified the Superintendent and chief law enforcement officer that they were doing all that, that exemption was not included. So, any out of stater, any out of state officer who is following subsection b. and thinking that they’re in the clear, they’re not. They are guilty of violating the law if their gun is loaded on their person in their vehicle, because they weren’t exempted.

Evan Nappen 31:45

The only hope they have is if they fall under LEOSA (Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act. If that out of state officer is not LEOSA qualified, then the b. exemption that they had relied upon for years coming into New Jersey, will not protect them in a vehicle. They cannot have it loaded on their person. So, remember, they’re going to have to be a qualified law enforcement officer under LEOSA to even argue that they are lawfully allowed to do it. When it comes to the LEOSA qualification, even for active duty officers, keep in mind that the requirements for that include that the person has to be authorized by law to engage or supervise in the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution or incarceration, of Page – 8 – of 9

any person for any violation of law and that you have the statutory powers of arrest or apprehension. You have to be authorized by your agency to carry a firearm. You can’t be subject to any disciplinary action by the agency which could result in suspension or loss of police powers. So, if there’s agency action on you, even if you’re one of these folks that got the approval to come here from out of state, you’re not covered in your vehicle. You don’t have LEOSA coverage. You also have to have, that you meet the standards that you’ve qualified regularly for the firearm, and that you’re not under the influence of alcohol, or other intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance.

Evan Nappen 33:31

I actually have had cases where out of state officers that did qualify and do so but went to the bar and had a drink or two. It disqualified them from the LEOSA qualification because you cannot be under the influence. If you’re in Jersey and you’re using cannabis or you’re drinking, you’re under that influence. It doesn’t mean that you’re completely intoxicated, just under the influence of it. You are no longer covered by LEOSA, and the exemption doesn’t cover you in your vehicle. So, imagine being in your vehicle as an officer from out of state and having an accident, and there was any of this. You’re looking at gun charges on top of everything else now as well. And, of course, the other qualifiers. You can’t be prohibited by federal law from receiving a firearm. It would be unlikely as law enforcement that that would apply to you. But look, they’ve completely screwed over out of state law enforcement by forgetting the b. section. But then again, we’re just talking about elite exemptions. I guess a lot of folks may not even care about that, given the overall approach of this law is just to screw over ordinary citizens. So, why should we care? But I care. I don’t want to see good law enforcement hurt either, especially being confused and thrown to the wolves by Jersey in their ridiculous gun laws.

Evan Nappen 35:11

But you can see how deep this goes, because it applies on all those sensitive places to our long arms as well as our handguns. The only exemption that specifically states here that applies is that nothing in this section shall apply to the carrying or transporting of a firearm in accordance with subsection e. and f. of 39-6. The only exemptions at all to those sensitive places are if you are within the exemptions of e. and f., of 39-6. So, we’re back to the Firearms ID Card not protecting us at all on our transport and having to specifically rely on subsection e. and f. What do those sections say? What do they cover? What does e. cover, for example? Well, e. says that it covers place of business, residence, premises or land owned or possessed by the person. So, the subsection e. is your business, as long as you own the business, your residence, premises or land owned or possessed. If you are on your own property, you can have your long arms on your own property. How nice of them. Or at your place of business, as long as you are the owner of that place of business. Then if you want to transport from there, you have to do it pursuant to subsection g., which is essentially cased and unloaded. Okay, the way we’ve been trained to do it. You can go between your dwelling and your place of business, and between one place of business and a residence and another when moving. You can go between a person’s dwelling and place of business and a place where firearms are repaired for the purpose of repair. Okay, so these are the places exempt under e.

Evan Nappen 37:24

Then we go to f. What’s exempted under f.? Well, it’s going to or from a rifle or pistol club, or place of target practice. Or if you’re carrying in the woods or fields of the state for hunting, target practice, or Page – 9 – of 9

fishing provided the firearm or knife is lawful for hunting or fishing and that you have in your possession a valid hunting license. You have to have a valid license in your possession, then you can transport the firearm. Now we’re in this subsection f. transport, where? Directly to or from the place of hunting or fishing provided you have that valid license. Or directly to or from the target range, or other place for authorized practice and exhibition of firearms, as long as you’re in full compliance with all of the Fish and Game laws, by the way. If you’re doing those narrow activities of subsection e. and f., then and only then, are you protected in the transport of your rifle and shotgun. Your Firearms ID Card no longer protects you in all those places, all those undefined places.

Evan Nappen 39:02

At the same time, if you got that carry permit, it’s been rendered neutered, essentially turned into uselessness, virtually, in the same manner. So, this is what we’re stuck with at the moment. It’s going to take the challenges in court to set aside this stuff. But until that happens, until we succeed in doing that, I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. I don’t want to see any of you end up with criminal trouble. You have to be smart. You have to know just how outrageous, terrible our legislators are, and how the Democrats in the legislature and Murphy have shoved this upon us without consideration of our rights and our freedoms. They created this massive matrix of a trap for us, which is exactly what they’ve done. And now, it’s taking the efforts of the pro-gun groups, particularly the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, bringing this action to take this stuff down and to protect us. This is why again, I want to thank them as our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org . Make sure you join. Make sure you’re a member. Make sure that you are aware and that your family and friends know just how treacherous and dangerous this new law has made it. Even for those who didn’t care about carry, who said, well, I don’t care. I’m just a hunter. Doesn’t affect me. You know, we jokingly call the Fuds. Well, I got news for you Fuds. You’ve been wrapped up in this mess, too. That’s what’s happened. Your long arms are just as problematic as a handgun now, and those problems are insanely serious in New Jersey if you get wrapped up or fall into any of these traps. Now you know. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 41:39

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in his broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E114_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 113-How We Beat BidenAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 113SUMMARY KEYWORDS

atf, biden, gun, inspectors, new jersey, firearms, inspections, law, revoke, willfully, willful, gun rights, fight, evan, state, ira, license, gun dealers, hearing, lawyer

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3, Ira Levin

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, today we have a very special guest in the studio and that is somebody who I am really, really excited to have been able to help. Together our guest, whose name is Ira Levin, we defeated Biden. That is correct. We defeated Biden. And that’s because Joe Biden put forward an arbitrary policy that was not something done by the legislature, but something done by fiat. And it created a situation in which top gun dealers, range operators, etc, became vulnerable to being destroyed, having their businesses utterly destroyed based on this arbitrary rule. We’re gonna get into it, and how we fought it, and how this made a huge difference. And how, despite the efforts of the Biden administration, there are elements in the law that had been put there to protect us. And in fact, in this case, that’s exactly what happened.

Evan Nappen 01:48

I want to first mention our show’s sponsor, ANJRPC, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs. They are a great organization that defends our gun rights in New Jersey, and I would encourage everyone to be a member of the Association. It’s the state affiliate of the NRA. It’s the umbrella organization of gun clubs in New Jersey, and they have full time lobbyists down in Trenton. And they never sleep. Let me tell you

Evan Nappen 02:23

But let me introduce to you, Ira. Ira, thank you for being on the show today.

Ira Levin 02:29

Thank you for having me, Evan. I appreciate it.

Evan Nappen 02:31

Now, Ira, first of all, I would like our listeners to know about you. You’re a veteran. First of all, correct?

Ira Levin 02:42

That’s correct. I was in the Air Force for just over five years.

Evan Nappen 02:46

Then at a certain point, you became involved in the firearms business. How did that come about? Page – 2 – of 10

Ira Levin 02:57

If you remember back, New Jersey passed a law that said that you could only purchase one handgun every 30 days. When that law passed, or when the legislation passed, I said to my wife, I said, this is the most ridiculous legislation. If they think this is going to stop gun crime. No one’s buying a gun legally, and then selling it to somebody on the side so they can go and commit crimes. The person gets caught, where’s the gun come from? They go back to the buyer and say, Where’s your gun? How many

Evan Nappen 03:28

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Ira, you mean to tell me that people don’t go through the entire New Jersey permitting process so they can get guns papered to themselves, so they can then sell them on the street. Really? That’s amazing.

Ira Levin 03:44

So, I said to my wife, I should get my license and help people buy guns legally as cheap as possible. And she said, you know what, why don’t you do it? So, I applied, and I started doing FFL transfers out of my home. Eventually I became so busy that I had to move into a little shop, and I’ve since grown that into a multimillion-dollar business.

Evan Nappen 04:07

That’s great. And what’s the name of your shop for those that may not know?

Ira Levin 04:10

Legend Firearms. I’m located in Monroe, New Jersey, inside the Union Hill Gun Club.

Evan Nappen 04:17

Okay. There is also where there’s firearm training and range facility. Right?

Ira Levin 04:27

Right. We have it’s a 24-hour facility. It’s a private club. It’s very reasonably priced. We also have a training group on site. ROC Training is run by Rocco La Rocca. So, he does all the training, him and his people and obviously they’re very busy right now with the concealed carry classes.

Evan Nappen 04:44

Right. New Jersey, of course, is a challenging environment to be involved with firearms. Probably the most challenging, and yet your problem that you ended up having was not with New Jersey. Isn’t that so?

Ira Levin 05:02

That’s correct. My issue was with the ATF. I have never had an issue with the state of New Jersey. Page – 3 – of 10

Evan Nappen 05:08

Now, tell me, when you’re a gun dealer ATF has a certain job to do when it comes to licensees. And that I guess involves doing various inspections and such. And you’ve had inspections through the years, correct?

Ira Levin 05:26

Yes, I’ve had a number of inspections since 2009, when I first started my business.

Evan Nappen 05:32

Right, and how would you characterize your relationship with the ATF?

Ira Levin 05:41

Excellent. I always had a great relationship. I still have a good relationship with the people who inspected me.

Evan Nappen 05:46

Right. In fact, you were rather shocked, I’m sure, when you were notified that they intended to revoke your FFL. Isn’t that so?

Ira Levin 06:02

Yes. I mean, I remember the day very clearly. I got a call from my daughter, who runs the shop along with me, and she says, Daddy, someone from the ATF is here. And they just dropped off a letter to you. And she started to read it to me. And when she got to revocation, I said, stop. I’m on my way into the store. I was in disbelief.

Evan Nappen 06:24

And it ended up that the heart of their problem was the claim that you had conducted what? What was the heart of their issue?

Ira Levin 06:39

I had willfully flouted the law. I believe is the right word. That I had willfully done transactions that were outside of the scope of the legal definition that they provide, which is, you know, come in to do your paperwork, you have to pick up the firearm within 30 days, provided that you’re approved during your NICS check. So, we

Evan Nappen 07:04

Right, go ahead. No, I was going to say so three persons they claimed you did not perform NICS checks on, but in fact, you did perform NICS checks, didn’t you?

Ira Levin 07:16

We did perform NICs checks. Absolutely.

Evan Nappen 07:18

And they all passed the NICS checks that you performed, correct? Page – 4 – of 10

Ira Levin 07:22

Yes, absolutely.

Evan Nappen 07:23

So, the problem was what then? How could they say you didn’t do a NICS check, when in fact, you did NICS checks, and all these people pass their NICS check?

Ira Levin 07:33

Well, you know, I don’t know specifically what the law says. But I can tell you that ATF says, If someone fills out a 4473, regardless of how, which is the form you fill out when you purchase a firearm, regardless of how long the background check or the NICS check takes, that person has to pick up that firearm within 30 days, or that form is dead. If they pick up the gun on the 31st day or the 35th day and you use that same form, they consider it a transfer without a NICS check.

Evan Nappen 08:05

So, anything over 30 days, ATF takes a view that you need to do another NICS check. Now this other NICS check that ATF wants you to do is no different than the NICS check that you performed originally, right? Same NICS check?

Ira Levin 08:26

That’s correct. It’s the same NICS check.

Evan Nappen 08:28

And given that, really, it’s simply a matter of an arbitrary period of time that ATF has chosen to say, oh, well, after 30 days, you have to do another one. Right?

Ira Levin 08:44

That’s correct.

Evan Nappen 08:44

That’s right. And go ahead.

Ira Levin 08:46

You know, what surprises me most is something I actually learned from you during a conversation with ATF was that, in states, which ATF maintains New Jersey is not one of, in states where you have a concealed carry permit, you need a NICS check once every five years.

Evan Nappen 09:04

Correct. That’s called the Brady exemption and the ATF, they put out a list of states that have licenses that they are willing to say, make it so that if it meets their criteria that they establish, you don’t need to get a NICS check. One of the criteria of their license requirements is that a license cannot be valid for over five years. So, with all these states that have the NICS exempt licenses, you can have a license where you haven’t undergone a background check for literally, four years, 364 days. You haven’t had a Page – 5 – of 10

background check. And you could sell a firearm with no NICS check at all, to that individual who all those years has not had any background check. And ATF is perfectly fine with that, because the law actually permits that. Correct?

Ira Levin 10:09

That’s my understanding. Yes.

Evan Nappen 10:11

It is. Yet here, they’re attempting to revoke, absolutely revoke, your license, destroy the business that you built, destroy your livelihood, destroy your investment, and your passion over a rule that isn’t even an official rule, but rather a promulgation by the Biden administration saying any dealer that didn’t perform a NICS check, you move to revoke. And that’s what happened to you. Right?

Ira Levin 10:50

That’s correct.

Evan Nappen 10:51

Yes, they do. So, after we pointed this out to them, because the process begins where you have an informal hearing at first. Prior to Biden’s politicization of the issues to just try to close down and intimidate gun dealers, ATF would reasonably hold an informal hearing, where most of the time, you would just work things out, do whatever they needed, if there were some adjustments needed. And you could continue to do your business and continue with ATF in excellent relations. And that’s normally how it went. But not this time, because there was this mandate placed upon the agency by Biden, to move for revocation. So, after we had that informal hearing, where they could have simply resolved the matter, they said, no, we’re going to go to a final hearing. And the final hearing is where we had to argue and present a case that was actually being recorded by ATF. If we were unsuccessful at this next hearing, then the next step was going to the Federal Court on their attempt to revoke your license. When we come back from the break, we’re going to get into that final hearing, and how it went down and what the result was, and why.

Speaker 3 12:30

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer. Page – 6 – of 10

Speaker 3 13:44

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 13:59

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and today in the studio, we have a special guest. Ira Levin of Legend Firearms. We’re talking about how, together, we were able to beat Biden at his administrative attempts to destroy gun dealers throughout America. This is a really interesting case because it ended up pulling in the 1986 Gun Owners Protection Act provisions that we’re going to talk about, and other gun dealers who may be facing the same challenges can use the same law.

Evan Nappen 14:45

I want to tell you that our sponsor Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It’s a great organization and is at the forefront in New Jersey fighting for our rights. I’ve been a part of the Association for many, many years. Helping with litigation and legislative analysis. And I want to tell you, you need to be a member of your state organization. There are plenty of great gun groups out there. This is not to say to only belong to the Association. But at a minimum, if you care about your gun rights in New Jersey, particularly, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org. Make sure you have your membership because when you’re a member, they send out email alerts, so you know exactly what’s going on. They have a full-time lobbyist, a paid lobbyist, in Trenton. We’re on top of it. You’re able to make a difference, and by following the emails, you can virtually instantly let your legislators know your position on these gun bills. Know the progress. Know the laws. Know what you can do to protect yourself if the laws are going to go through. We’re in a big fight. New Jersey is the front line in the battle for gun rights, and the Association is there for you. So, make sure you join.

Evan Nappen 16:12

So, IRA, I was really interested when we went to this final hearing. I think they had about eight people there from ATF. I think it was. They had to make sure they had lots of folks to go against me, I guess. But it was interesting in their approach, because they had themselves in the allegations against you, claimed something that was utterly and completely untrue. What they claimed, that was so unbelievably untrue, was that your violations were “willful”. Now the reason they use the word willful, is that is in the law as to what must be proven and/or demonstrated to have a revocation. The willful standard was put into the law in the Gun Owners Protection Act because of the abuse that had taken place prior. That’s why the pro-gun forces were able to get the standard to willful and that willful standard meant you had to have intention, or that you had a callous disregard for what you were doing. And of course, none of that was true in your case. Exactly the opposite. You were incredibly diligent and responsive to ATF, and you, at every turn, simply want to obey the law and conduct your business properly pursuant to the license. And that is a fact. Yet they still made this outrageous allegation, frankly, defamatory in my view, to claim that you acted willfully. Tell us about your relationship with ATF, Ira.

Ira Levin 18:21

Well, I mean, obviously, when you first get into this industry or this business, you fill out your applications for your firearms license. An inspector, which is the first time you meet, will come out to Page – 7 – of 10

look at the facility, introduce themselves and go over what’s required for each space. Every time you move, which I moved several times as my business grew, you had subsequent inspections, in addition to the standard inspections that you’re subjected to, annually by ATT. My relationship with, and obviously I won’t use any of the inspectors’ names, have always been, you know, very good. I always seek to cooperate. You know, maybe more so than some other dealers. Because, you know, it’s as important to me as it is to them, I think, to prevent firearms from falling into the hands of people who should not have them. When I was in the military, I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. And I still take that oath very seriously. I have friends who are firearms dealers in this state who took that same oath as police officers. And I know they take it very seriously. The inspectors know, and the inspectors knew, and one even mentioned in their testimony, that what I did, they believed was not willful, which to me was a big win. When you were questioning that particular inspector, and it was just question after question after question. Then you said, do you believe this was willful? And that inspector said, absolutely not. I almost fell off my chair.

Evan Nappen 20:00

Well, that’s how you do cross examination in the right way. We brought it on piece by piece and laid the foundation to demonstrate and have their testimony demonstrate that you did not do any of this intentionally or with callous disregard. In fact, they even testified that it was the opposite until finally, they were themselves in a box where they had to admit, it wasn’t willful. And if it’s not willful, then it’s not revocation. Okay, and that is the law. And that’s how to use the very, that very factor that was placed into the law for just this reason, so that ATF could not do what they attempted to do to you, because they had done it in the past. And that was purposely put into the law. And he could see how critical it was in making the difference. You testified and were excellent in how you explained everything about yourself and how passionate you are. I know that that hit home as well. And that your relationship with ATF was so cordial and so cooperative. Didn’t you mention something about them even bringing doughnuts? How was that story? How did that go?

Ira Levin 21:35

Yeah, during one of my inspections, well, look, anytime I’ve ever had an inspection, you know, if I’m getting lunch, or I’m doing something, I will always ask the inspectors, hey, do you guys want anything? Do you need anything, whatever. Now that I’m a bigger dealer, my inspections take a much longer period of time. One of my inspectors was there on site for well over a week or two weeks. And you start to you know, you talk to them, what do you do, you know, where you go vacations, this and that. It’s not an interrogation for two weeks. They’re looking through paperwork to make sure there’s no errors. And this one particular inspector that happened to mention that they baked doughnuts, and I’m a fairly zaftig guy, you know. I don’t try. I won’t turn down a donut. And I may have mentioned that. And so, you know, they did some baking over the weekend in between inspection periods and brought in some donuts. They were great donuts, by the way. I mean, they were very good.

Ira Levin 22:35

But it’s important. This whole case, I think, is predicated, not based on what inspectors found, because the inspectors found some things, and I worked with them to correct them. They issued me a letter saying, hey, here’s what we found. We just want to let you know. You can’t do this in the future. Don’t let it happen again. And I really believed that was the end of it. Then, all of a sudden, I got a letter of Page – 8 – of 10

revocation. Months later. I mean, six months later. I do believe that’s predicated on the Biden administration’s direction to ATF. Because sitting in that room that you mentioned, there were eight people, four of those people had previously inspected me. Four of those people testified to me not having those errors or issues in previous inspections. And it was this one particular inspection where they discovered these issues. I think that the person who, you know, was running the hearing, again, I won’t mention his name because I think that would be unprofessional, did not speak with those inspectors and say, hey, is this guy a guy who, you know, he’s a problem, we got to get rid of this guy? Or is this guy a good guy, and this is an error. Because, you know, occasionally, human beings make mistakes. Because this can’t be the only career field where zero mistakes are expected.

Evan Nappen 23:55

There’s no question ATF was professional. No question. They acted professional. Through the hearing, they were professional. But you and I know that the timing of this and the purpose behind this and how this normally would have been handled, was Biden’s fingerprints all over it. The good news is, as much as he tried to destroy you and other gun dealers with this fiat that he decided to put out, it failed here. And it is great to actually see a system work. Of course, we raised other issues in your hearing that raised the pot, raised the ante, if you will, because if they had tried anything, we were going to federal court, and we were going to pursue even other legal issues raised. Not the least of which is whether a NICS check is even something they can require if you have a New Jersey handgun purchase permit. Because the New Jersey handgun purchase permit meets the standard in the law to get that Brady exemption even though ATF has never certified it as having the Brady exemption. So, these are things that all were on the table as well.

Evan Nappen 25:18

Yet, we were super pleased when the letter came to you. I know you posted the letter, and I just want to read a section of it so the listeners can see how this goes. It says, on March 21, 2022, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives issued a notice to revoke or suspend or impose a civil fine to your FFL, Racing Rails, LLC DBA Legend Firearms. Now notice, by the way, they could have not just revoked, which was the Biden mandate, but they also could have suspended and/or imposed a civil fine. All those other options that they had. Then it said, the notice alleged that you willfully violated rules and regulations prescribed and then he lists all the laws. The final sentence of that paragraph, after reviewing all testimony and evidence introduced at the hearing, I have determined not to issue a final notice of revocation in this matter. So, it was a total victory. And it was just wonderful. When did you learn of the victory, Ira?

Ira Levin 26:35

I was on a cruise in the Caribbean. My daughter called me on FaceTime and said, Daddy, there’s a letter here from ATF. Do you want me to read it? And I said, no, don’t read it. Because depending on what’s in it, it could just destroy the last few days of this trip. And she said, Listen, if I read it, and there’s something bad in it, I won’t tell you. I said, well, if you don’t tell me then I know there’s something bad in it. And I said, listen, if it’s bad, Evan is going to represent me, and we’re going to go to federal court anyways. So, you might as well just tell me, and she said, okay. She opened the letter, and I heard the rustling. As you know, and a lot of you know from looking at the letter online, there’s a lot of text before it gets to the good part, which is they’re going to not revoke my license. So, I kept saying, well, what Page – 9 – of 10

does it say? What does it say? And then, I’m on FaceTime audio on a cruise in the Caribbean. I can’t hear. And all I hear is, you know, nnt,nnt fine. No, no, no, fine. No, fine, no, fine. I’m like, there’s no fine? And she’s like, there’s no fine. There’s no revocation. You won. You won. You won. And she was screaming. And I said, okay, oh, I gotta go. I gotta text, Evan. And that’s where we are. I didn’t know you had already seen it and tried to email me.

Evan Nappen 27:54

I tried to email you, but you were out of contact, I guess. But that’s great. No, it was. We were just as excited on our side, and we know that the right decision was made by them. And that we were able to not just save you, which makes me so happy, but also to defeat the political nature of what this really was. And really, that’s what it was.

Ira Levin 28:22

This sets an important precedent, which is using the term willful and having to prove willful. I am certain, you know, there’s probably someone out there who does stuff they should not be doing, and I get that. But when you put the word willful into it, it’s a game changer. And I think that’s really what made the difference. They knew they had no case. They couldn’t prove that what I did was willful. And I think it also sets a bad precedent, because it’s like trickle down politics. Biden declares law on FFLs because he can’t stop people from buying guns. So, you get rid of the gun dealers. The state of New Jersey declares war on concealed carry because they lost that case with the Bruen case in New York. Now they’ve passed a bunch of laws that we’re going to have to go fight.

Evan Nappen 29:11

That’s right.

Ira Levin 29:12

ANJRPC, they have their work cut out for them. You know, I’m sure that they’ve already got legislation in the pipeline, ready to fire at that legislation. It’s just a shame that politicians, on one side of the aisle versus the other side of the aisle, will vote on legislation they know is bad. They willfully do it. Knowing it’s not constitutional. In support of their policies.

Evan Nappen 29:37

You know, that’s a great point, Ira. The real willfulness is in these anti-Second Amendment, anti-gun politicians. They’re the ones that are willfully trying to destroy and take away our rights, our guns and our freedoms. And that’s a great point. You’re also right. ANJRPC will be immediately, I am 100% confident, filing to fight the carry law, that so- called Carry Killer bill that passed. Any day now, within nine days of the passage, Murphy is going to sign it. Probably by the time you hear this show, he will have signed it. And I’m sure that the Association will have made its move to fight it in the courts. We have a great weapon to fight it with and that is the Bruen decision. Make sure you belong to your state association, so that you join in the fight with us. I would like to thank Ira for being on the show, Legend Firearms. I just want to remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 10 – of 10

Speaker 3 31:02

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E113_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 112-This Gun Case That May Change EverythingAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 112SUMMARY KEYWORDS

case, firearms, new jersey, expunged, welfare, second amendment rights, point, gun rights, second amendment, permit, denied, guns, gun, firearm, expungement, appeal, interest, state, court, heller

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Louis Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. We have a special guest in the studio today, and I’ve known this special guest for quite a long time. This guest is my brother, Louis Nappen. The reason that Louis is here today is we’re going to be talking about a court case in New Jersey that may change everything. It’s not an exaggeration. We’re going at an issue in our gun laws that is an issue in every gun permit case, Firearms ID Card, Permit to Carry and weapon forfeiture, because it goes directly to the heart of the disqualifiers, what we call the disabilities. We are challenging one of the disabilities that is the most troublesome of them all because it is incredibly subjective. We see it being abused and used to deny citizens’ rights all the time, and we finally have an opportunity here. It’s very exciting and can have tremendous impact.

Evan Nappen 01:38

Now, I want to first thank our sponsor, who is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC, for helping us to get the word out here and to be a proud supporter of our show. This case is really significant. And it’s very interesting as to how it progressed, and the timing of it, given the Bruen decision. First, let me introduce my brother Louis. Louis, how are you today?

Louis Nappen 02:20

I’m fine. Thank you very much.

Evan Nappen 02:21

Good. I’m glad you’re with us to talk about this. Now, Louis did most of the heavy lifting in this case, and it is very interesting because it’s an appeal to the Appellate Division of New Jersey, in which the Appellate Division did something that we have rarely ever seen before. Why don’t you tell us about what occurred here, Louis, in the procedural aspect of this case?

Louis Nappen 02:54

I’ll give you a little bit of the history here. We have a person who applied for a permit to purchase a handgun. He already had a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card, and he wanted some more guns. In New Jersey, you have to apply for each additional handgun, and he applied. He was denied under the clause, the statutory subsection. There are 11 disqualifier subsections in our law, and he was denied to the one that says the issuance should not happen to any person where the issuance would not be in Page – 2 – of 13

the interest of the public health, safety or welfare. That’s the vague, overbroad, how are you supposed to know, clause that he was denied under. It was not in the interest of public health, safety or welfare for him to get handgun permits, even though he already had a Firearms ID Card.

Evan Nappen 04:02

As a matter of fact, he had had a firearms virtual ID card and other handgun permits issued by this same department. Correct?

Louis Nappen 04:11

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 04:12

He had had them since I think 2017. He had had these permits and had been issued, and then he applied.

Louis Nappen 04:22

In 2020, he was denied this way. He appeals, he takes it up to them, and the way it works. He was denied by his police chief, but that’s how it works in Jersey, and then you can appeal to the Superior Court, county for a hearing. Now, when he did that, the state then moved to revoke his Firearm Purchaser ID Card and to compel the sale of his firearms that he already possessed.

Evan Nappen 04:53

Now, before we go further, what was the allegation or what was the basis or the foundation for them even trying to claim that there’s some danger or not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare here? Because he did not have what’s called a per se disqualifier. He was not a convicted felon. He didn’t have a restraining order. There was nothing otherwise that prohibited him from having a firearm. Right?

Louis Nappen 05:20

That’s correct. Yep. No restraining orders, no convictions on his record, none of that. All he had.

Evan Nappen 05:26

What did they rely on? What did they rely on?

Evan Nappen 05:29

Oh, oh, okay. Now, wait a minute. So, he’s being denied now his Second Amendment rights. They’re revoking in de facto revocation to take away his old licenses, permits and try to grab his guns over an expunged matter that they reopened. So, for them to do this, and for the judge to grant it, it must have been incredibly serious. What was expunged? What were these heinous offenses that were expunged that now opening expungement lead to his loss of Second Amendment rights? What were they?

Louis Nappen 05:29 Page – 3 – of 13

They relied on two dismissed and expunged matters. The State motioned that they were aware of this, but they were expunged. The state motioned to open up the expungement, first off, and this judge granted that. Then they used the underlying facts of the expunged dismissed allegations as to

Louis Nappen 06:35

Well, one was, he was alleged to at one point, as I said, both were dismissed. Yeah. To have taken a trailer that was, he thought was abandoned. And he found out, it wasn’t abandoned. It was a trailer hitch, and it got resolved.

Evan Nappen 06:54

So yeah, so we had a theft of a trailer hitch that he thought was abandoned. Okay, what was the second one?

Louis Nappen 07:01

The second was, he was much younger at the time, but he worked in tree service and a woman who refused to pay him for his services. He was regretful, and he threw a log through her back windshield, back in the day, but paid for it. Totally regretful. And that’s when it got dismissed. Okay.

Evan Nappen 07:22

And that was and that was in. That was, he was not in

Louis Nappen 07:27

I want to say, though, she was not in the car or anything, just out of frustration. He did that.

Evan Nappen 07:32

Okay. And that was approximately for all about 10 years, prior to any of this, eight to 10 years prior. Right? I believe so. But he was 21.

Louis Nappen 07:43

Yeah, with his 30s. Correct,

Evan Nappen 07:45

Right, and that he even got it expunged. And everything was dismissed. So, that’s the sole basis, these two incidents from when he was a young, foolish guy, and he got them even expunged. None of them are per se disqualifiers. None of them even raised to a level of felony even then. They were simply what were in New Jersey

Louis Nappen 08:13

Handled in municipal court.

Evan Nappen 08:15

Misdemeanors, what Jersey calls disorderly persons. And by opening up expunged records and going at these two matters in his past, they not only denied his permit, right, and all. But they also sought to take his guns. And they did, didn’t they? Page – 4 – of 13

Louis Nappen 08:36

They did. The judge made him turn them over and get rid of a good amount of his possessions. Then, in the end, it went to the county court, and the judge totally granted everything that the state wanted in this in terms of revoking his F pick, he obviously denied his permits to purchase, compelled the sale of his firearms. Everything.

Evan Nappen 09:04

And this is having permits and guns for a number of years. He never had any problems or issues with the guns that he had. And, and so the section that got utilized here, to cause all this on this most minor of matters, was this public health, safety, welfare, basis for denial. And isn’t that in? That’s one of the disqualifiers in New Jersey law.

Louis Nappen 09:37

Correct. And what’s interesting about that, you want to emphasize, and I think it’s important to emphasize, that it’s not “in the interest of public health, safety or welfare.” Because that’s the analysis goes into that in terms of what’s happened since the Bruen decision. Didn’t want to go there.

Evan Nappen 09:56

And so, we filed an appeal. By the way, this was out of Bergen County, wasn’t it?

Louis Nappen 09:58

Yeah, it was Bergen County in 2020. Believe it or not, this is how long it takes to go through the courts. In 2020, he was denied. In 2021 was, by the time he had his hearing and everything. He filed his appeal, my brief, my initial brief, to the Appellate Division after he lost, he appealed it was in October of 2021. October of 2022 rolls around, and all the briefs have, I’m waiting for a decision to come down on the case. But I’m very thorough in my briefing. And one of my points that I put forward, way prior to the Bruen decision out of the (United States) Supreme Court, was emphasizing how under Heller and McDonald, the public health, safety, not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare should be found unconstitutional. I had preserved that issue at the trial level and on the appellate level. So, I argued, in my brief, that that should be found unconstitutional. Then Bruen comes down, and I get this message from the Appellate Division that they are interested in, said that they are requesting supplemental briefing as to how the Bruen decision affects this particular argument that issuance not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare is or is not constitutional. This is really rare for that to happen, in terms of suddenly being asked to do supplemental briefing.

Evan Nappen 11:40

They not only asked for you and our firm to submit the supplemental briefing.

Louis Nappen 11:45

Yeah, we had ten days to do it, too.

Evan Nappen 11:47

They also invited in the Attorney General, didn’t they? Page – 5 – of 13

Louis Nappen 11:52

They asked the Attorney General to come in as Amicus, which is interesting, because the Attorney General is the State as well as the State Prosecutor being the State. So, at that point, it was kind of two against one here.

Evan Nappen 12:03

Well, they wanted to make the odd fair because they know they’re against us.

Louis Nappen 12:06

And so that’s true. And then. So, we put forward

Evan Nappen 12:13

Then we decided as well, hey, look, you know what, they’re bringing in the Attorney General. We got a hold of as well and spoke to the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, because this issue was very important and affects members and gun owners throughout the state. The Association, themselves, came in as an amicus brief. They submitted a brief on the side of the Second Amendment. They had their brief done by Dan Schmutter, who’s a colleague and excellent Second Amendment attorney as well. So, it ends up that the sides are the Attorney General and the Prosecutor, and on our side is the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs and our firm. All the parties submitted their briefing on the constitutional issue here. The challenge to this clause, this disability that is subjective, and is what we call “the catch all”. We call it the all-inclusive weasel clause.

Louis Nappen 13:22

It is the weasel clause.

Evan Nappen 13:33

It’s a weasel clause because that’s what used to produce denials without having any boundaries, or really any structure. It’s simply the whim, the whim of a judge is basically all it takes.

Louis Nappen 13:50

I’ve handled and you’ve handled several cases, hundreds at least, where they’ve applied this. It’s used broadly. They try to allege it’s not, but it totally is. And it’s for the most I mean. I’ve seen it where a guy, after being frustrated in a verbal argument, went to his basement and took a hammer to his workbench and hammered it loudly. And that’s not in the interest of the public. Or you’ve seen it where they try to allege, he threw a pretzel at me or whatever.

Evan Nappen 14:22

Right, it really is. We’ve actually had that case. So yeah, finally now we see a review that’s going to take place by the Appellate court and where they have taken it the extra step of requesting supplemental briefing, brought in the Attorney General, and we have an amicus from the NRA affiliate, the State Affiliate in New Jersey, the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, all filed on this critical issue, because every license, every permit, and weapon forfeiture utilizes the same set of Page – 6 – of 13

disqualifiers where this catchall resides. This is incredibly important. When we come back, we’re going to give you even more of the details of this fight.

Louis Nappen 15:15

Argument.

Evan Nappen 15:17

The argument and how important it is so that you can watch as the decision comes down and it’s going to lay out finally, and we hope once and for all, knock out this atrocious disqualifier that has harmed the gun rights of so many New Jerseyans.

Speaker 3 15:43

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:58

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:14

Okay, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and with me today in the studio is Louis Nappen, my brother. Louis is an attorney with my firm and is our top appellate attorney. He has done just great work on many cases, including winning in the New Jersey Supreme Court, getting a unanimous decision, which was just astounding. When he told me we won and we had the unanimous decision, I was looking out the window for the pigs with wings. But yeah, it happened.

Louis Nappen 17:52

Due process on firearm permit appeals.

Evan Nappen 17:54

It was just great. Great. I also want to thank and take a moment here to thank the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are like I said a sponsor, and they joined immediately, in terms of, you know, we were in a crazy tight timeframe. But the Association stepped right up and got Dan Schmutter to submit a wonderful amicus brief in this case, so that the gun owners of New Jersey had an organizational representative as well, putting forward the Second Amendment arguments that are so Page – 7 – of 13

vital. This is why I really want to encourage all of you to join the Association. You need to be a member of ANJRPC. If you’re not a member, you’re doing yourself and our rights a disservice. They are the number one gun rights organization in New Jersey. There are other gun rights groups, too, and this is not in any way to disparage them. I’m just telling you that you need to belong to the Association for sure. That’s a must have.

Evan Nappen 19:09

Because not only are they there on the litigation front and standing up for your rights, but also, they’re there in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist. The News Alerts go out to members informing of the immediate threats and dangers and even have the ability by simply pushing a button to notify your legislators of our dislike or like of whatever they’re proposing. Of course, in New Jersey normally it’s extreme dislike, and this way you can stay on top of it. You’re really helping these things make a huge difference. And although in New Jersey we have one of the toughest, most difficult areas to fight, we are the front have lines on the Second Amendment in New Jersey. And it is ANJRPC that’s there fighting for you. So, please join. Just go to anjrpc.org.

Louis Nappen 20:14

So, moving right into it. I just want to say we requested oral argument. It was granted, and we had oral argument. We’re expecting a decision shortly from it. But let me now get into the argument that had to be made here. In our brief and also in oral argument to the three-judge panel at the appellate. Now, it’s a little rare to have this many people of course involved just at the Appellate level as opposed to the (New Jersey) Supreme Court or higher. But this is why this case is going to, it’s going to mean something. What we have here is, if you recall, what happened in Bruen. Now, it wasn’t just that. I mean, it’s a wonderful case. But it wasn’t just, they tried to say it was just about carry permits. It’s more than that, because Justice Thomas did a wonderful thing. He put forward a standard of review to beat all standard of reviews.

Louis Nappen 21:10

And what he wrote in the opinion, that is the controlling opinion, is in keeping with Heller, we hold that when the Second Amendment’s plain text covers an individual’s conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. To justify its regulation, the government may not simply posit that the regulation promotes an important interest. Rather, the government must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation only if a firearm regulation is consistent with this nation’s historical tradition, may a court conclude that the individual’s conduct falls outside of the Second Amendment’s unqualified command. That’s amazing language.

Louis Nappen 22:01

There are two parts to that, that I particularly attacked, our firm here, in our brief and in our argument. The first part, as I mentioned earlier, it’s important that we notice, what are they denying MU you for here? It’s in the interest of public health, safety or welfare. Yet the Supreme Court has specifically said that government may not simply posit that the regulation promotes an important interest. There you have it. Prima facie, that it should be found unconstitutional. Now, you know, this is of course,

Evan Nappen 22:38 Page – 8 – of 13

because it says it right there. The court is saying you can’t base it on interest and New Jersey’s disqualifier says just that – interest. And yet they still think that this somehow is constitutional.

Louis Nappen 22:51

The Attorney General in his argument actually had the balls, excuse my language, can you actually say, nerve, actually, just because it uses the same word “interest” doesn’t mean that it’s not positing an important interest just because it uses interest.

Evan Nappen 23:17

Just because it says it, doesn’t mean that it says it. Right? It’s like, that’s like isn’t that like one of the 10 commandments of wokeism? Doesn’t matter what it says. Right? Exactly.

Louis Nappen 23:29

I mean, it says it right there. You can’t use promoting an interest. And it’s and you’re saying interest of public health, safety, welfare. That’s exactly. Not only that. It’s the same language. Okay, so that’s first off. So, if they buy that argument. I don’t know. I’ve seen some things happen. What can I tell you? By the way, we didn’t say the name of the case here.

Evan Nappen 23:53

First read the caption in full. The full caption of the case of MU without the initials but glad right without using. Here’s everything that’s at stake here in the appeal is in the title caption of the case. Go ahead.

Louis Nappen 24:13

No joke. Normally you see it’s like State versus MU. This case is, In the matter of the appeal of the denial of MU’s application for a handgun purchase permit & In the matter of the revocation of MU’s Firearms Purchaser Identification Card and compelling the sale of his firearms. That is the title.

Evan Nappen 24:33

And the reason we call it the title is the demonstration of the escalation that can occur when you apply for your gun license and get denied. Then when that got denied, it snowballed to now we want to revoke your Firearms ID Card. Not only do we want to revoke your Firearms ID Card, but also, we want to take your guns. So, they did everything here. They went for the denial, the revocation and taking the guns simply because a man, who had already been licensed, already had a Firearms ID card, already possessed guns with no per se disqualifier, had the nerve to reapply to get an extra handgun purchase permit. That was his right to do. And the entire escalation occurs on this man to disenfranchise his Second Amendment rights and steal his guns.

Louis Nappen 25:25

And that doesn’t even include the separate motion, the prehearing motion, to open up his expungement, which is a whole separate

Evan Nappen 25:31

Which is another separate right, where now you invade what is supposed to be Page – 9 – of 13

Louis Nappen 25:38

deemed not to have occurred.

Evan Nappen 25:39

Right, exactly and been rehabilitated.

Louis Nappen 25:43

You can’t get an expungement unless you are rehabilitated.

Evan Nappen 25:46

Oh, but that doesn’t stop them from wanting to open it up when we’re dealing with guns. Lou, we’re dealing with guns. So, anything flies with the Jersey narrative when it comes to attacking guns, gun owners and gun rights. Go ahead. Tell us more.

Louis Nappen 26:00

So, the first part, of course, is I think it’s unconstitutional on its face. The other part is the fact about the nation’s historical tradition. In Bruen, they say Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them. So, they have to prove that people would lose their Second Amendment rights not because issuance of some permit of or just to lose their rights to firearms, or arms in that for that case, not just firearms, in the interest of public health, safety, and welfare in 1791, when the Second Amendment was adopted, and arguably up to the 14th Amendment in 1868, which incorporates the states cannot deny these rights either. So, they have to find law from that period of our nation’s founding to say that people lost their Second Amendment rights in the interest of public health, safety, welfare without

Evan Nappen 27:07

Even the British wouldn’t have tried that on us.

Louis Nappen 27:11

That’s true.

Evan Nappen 27:12

Well, ridiculous.

Louis Nappen 27:14

And it’s how they understood it then, too. But you have to remember, we’re up against people who believe militia is the same as National Guard and not what it understood to believe it was in 1791 etc. You know, we the people,

Louis Nappen 27:32

Just to also be fair here, because this is important, not only because you filed this appeal and covered all these issues. Then when Bruen came out, this entire issue took on a whole new dimension, and hence the whole battle on this constitutional issue. But in your original appeal, you actually raised 11 separate points, and I just think it’s worth talking about them briefly to see how thorough and just what a Page – 10 – of 13

railroad on this case. So, for example, your point one, in doing this, you have to talk about how the court erred, your talk that it ruled about community caretaking and why did you argue community caretaking as a point? Just really quick. What is the significance of that?

Louis Nappen 28:25

Well, that comes from another Supreme Court case that they’re not allowed to just take firearms under alleged community caretaking standard and that’s basically an amendment

Evan Nappen 28:40

It’s a Fourth Amendment violation, isn’t it?

Louis Nappen 28:42

That’s correct.

Evan Nappen 28:43

Fourth Amendment. Then in the second point, you raise public health, safety, welfare as not authorizing seizure or forfeiture.

Louis Nappen 28:52

Yeah, the state never moved under anything that was an official forfeiture motion. There are different ways you can forfeit or obtain firearms. There are restraining orders. There’s Extreme Risk Protection Orders, better known as red flag laws. There’s a duty to warn laws. There’s different. Contraband, if you use it in a crime. None of this was here. They’re just saying what kind of. By the way, public health, safety, welfare is not one of the listed elements under the statute that make you a certain person not to possess firearms.

Evan Nappen 29:28

Right! So, in other words, there’s criminal prohibitors where if you’re a convicted felon, you can also be criminally prosecuted if you have a gun. But public health, safety, welfare isn’t a criminal prohibitor. It’s only found administratively. Yet, they abuse it to this degree. Then you also in your third point, you talk about the licensing statute itself, you can’t add things to the form, including prohibiting and adding requirements.

Louis Nappen 30:00

Let me talk about that briefly. Just about that. Interesting about that is that was one of my published cases that I am very proud of, which eliminated a lot of extra bureaucratic nonsense. Ten years ago, at this point, probably. I had won a case. I actually won three appellate division (appeals), and one of them got published about having no added forms. It’s only the state mandated forms, and they’re supposed to be consistent among all the municipalities. No rogue police chiefs or condition about this or that coming down the pike. But in this case, what are they saying a condition of this is? That you have to give up your firearm rights. I mean, your firearms themselves, or whatever else, that you have to open up your expungement. These are added conditions that are not in the statute.

Evan Nappen 30:57 Page – 11 – of 13

And that’s counter to case law right there. Then point five, you talked about Cunningham, and that is a case in New Jersey, that quasi seems to be something that the prosecutors love to try to utilize to justify taking guns without due process. But that’s also something you argue is not applicable. Then in point five, you talk about search and compelled sale or destruction, and that’s unlawful because it offends equity. How is it an equity issue?

Louis Nappen 31:31

Well, equity of course, a forfeiture.

Evan Nappen 31:33

There we go. Simple. Law School 101. Isn’t it? Right away. Then you argue in point six, that there was irreparable harm since they did what they did with the guns and his gun rights. And then in seven, you raise something very interesting. You raise about being denied a jury trial. Tell us about that. What’s that about?

Louis Nappen 31:56

Well, there’s a case that came down about how if property is. A woman who had her car taken and she wanted, it’s a 1990 Honda, it’s an older case, said that she’s entitled to a jury trial if the state moves for forfeiture. Well, firearms are property. And if you have a judge that you know is going to be going this way, I’d rather have a jury make that, as be the tryer of facts and apply it to the facts. So, why isn’t he entitled to a jury on his property just like anybody else is, if they’re going to accept, which I don’t think it’s correct, that they’re allowed to even forfeit or move for forfeiture on his firearms.

Evan Nappen 32:36

Then in point eight, you said that the Court in Bergen required the petitioner to register with the court how many and what types of firearms he possesses. What was that all about?

Louis Nappen 32:43

When he first came up there, that judge said, “Well, we want these firearms out of your hands while we’re deciding this case. So, he had to tell them what firearms he possessed,

Evan Nappen 33:00

In effect was a de facto registration, wasn’t it?

Louis Nappen 33:04

That’s right. That’s what that is. I would call it that.

Evan Nappen 33:07

Then you said the court also erred in regarding the

Louis Nappen 33:14

public, that he is not even a danger to the public health, safety, welfare, even if except that standard, write of course. Page – 12 – of 13

Evan Nappen 33:20

Right. Of course. Then even factually, how do these two minor DP matters that ended up all expunged and ancient history? How does that in any way actually make him an actual danger, which isn’t really ever explained there because it’s so subjective. Then you talk about in point 10, New Jersey’s restriction is an offense to Heller and McDonald. This is where in point 10, you went heavily into all the different constitutional arguments at the time that was pre Bruen. Right?

Louis Nappen 33:57

Yeah, I preserved this from day one. In fact, most cases, if not all, it’s well worth raising the Second Amendment to make sure it’s raised.

Evan Nappen 34:05

You raised it thoroughly as you could at the time. And that’s where the supplemental and then the 11th point was just procedural.

Louis Nappen 34:13

Well, it’s just a procedural, but I try to protect my client by trying to make sure his name doesn’t get too much out there because it’s effect.

Evan Nappen 34:23

Right. And so that’s very good. So, that was the initial brief. That was it. Was it 77 pages with the appendix? Just hammering with that, and then they want supplemental, which was great in the light of Bruen, that’s brought us to this battle right now. The oral arguments have already been heard. The briefs are in, and we are now waiting for this decision. If we can just knock out this arbitrary, this subjective, this tool of disenfranchisement of Second Amendment rights that has been on the books in New Jersey, it will help so many gun owners and be a really wonderful day for the empowerment of our Second Amendment rights.

Louis Nappen 35:13

Let me just say. There is a third aspect that we’re also arguing that interest, not in the interest of public health, safety, safety, welfare, constitutes an unconstitutional balancing test. And that’s important to note. I’ve been arguing this, because of Heller saying, you can’t have a balancing test. In this case, the balance they’re trying to say, your individual, natural, fundamental right, to defend yourself and to arm yourself against this nebulous public interest. And that’s the balance that courts are balancing when they do this. And you’re not supposed to have a balancing test for this right at all.

Evan Nappen 35:58

It’s almost like means end scrutiny, which the Court has completely rejected.

Evan Nappen 36:03

They said it’s one step too many. You can’t go there. And yet New Jersey has consistently tried to utilize that as well. But that is also barred, done, dead, by Bruen. This is extremely exciting and can’t wait. Page – 13 – of 13

Louis Nappen 36:03

That right.

Louis Nappen 36:21

This dates back to 1968 with the Burton case where they found that public health, safety, welfare constitutional, because it wasn’t yet incorporated. And they’re talking about militias, which is National Guard, not individual rights.

Evan Nappen 36:36

Well, that’s where the Bruen case has completely gutted the entire foundation of New Jersey’s gun laws, because the Burton v. Sills case is where they decided that the Second Amendment did not apply at all to New Jersey, and they viewed gun rights as strictly a privilege, not a right. They are in fact, dead wrong, and now, the gun laws that were passed with this belief that it is simply a privilege, and they could do whatever the hell they wanted. Well, those days are coming to an abrupt end. It’s going to take victory after victory, and that’s what we’re working on right here, with the MU case. So, folks, stay tuned. I want to thank Louis for joining us today, and I want to thank ANJRPC as a sponsor of the show. Please make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org. Let me just remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:43

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E112_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 111- Bi Partisan Voluntary Gun BanAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 111SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, gun, explosive, law, bill, gun rights, suicide, fight, people, rights, gun owners, anti, evan, disenfranchise, buy, firearm, push, destructive, gun laws, means

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I recently read a very interesting article, and then I’ve seen more information about it. About what is being pushed as the bipartisan voluntary gun ban. Before I get into that, I want to thank you all for being loyal listeners. I particularly want to thank our sponsor of the show, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC, which is the state NRA affiliate in New Jersey, fighting for our gun rights. In New Jersey, it’s vital that you belong to the Association, as we fondly call it. Now, this interesting push of this bill is a little bit of a twist on what is normally put forward. The idea behind this is to have a Federal law where you can voluntarily place yourself on a list so that you cannot buy a gun. (H.R. 8361 – “Preventing Suicide Through Voluntary Firearm Purchase Delay Act”) (https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8361/text?r=4&s=1) You literally impose a gun ban on yourself. This is an actual Federal bill that has some bipartisan support, and it is being pushed under the guise of suicide prevention. So, if somebody, in theory, knows that they are suicidal and that they themselves cannot trust themselves to not want to go out and buy a gun and off themselves, they can, in advance, put themselves on a list so that a gun cannot be sold to them. In other words, making themselves essentially NICS denied on the purchase when they go to buy.

Evan Nappen 02:34

Now, of course, the whole thing is absurd. First of all, the push on suicide and prevention of suicide is, on one hand, something any one of us can sympathize with. We don’t want to see people killing themselves. You want to see people not invoke what is called the “long term solution to short term problems”. And I get that. But, as usual, the anti-gun folks, the anti-Second Amendment folks, seize on anything they can seize upon. And here, they want to just make suicide about guns. They’ve pushed programs in the past and “the means matter”. In other words, go after guns to stop suicide. Now, even when you stop for a minute, if someone is bent on killing themselves, there’s only about 1000 ways to do it. A gun is one way, but are we going to also put yourself on the list so you can’t cross bridges? Are you going to put yourself on a list so you can’t buy rope or any kind of wire? Are you going to put yourself on a list so that you can’t run your car in your garage with the fumes? At what point can you stop these various means which is endless ways to kill yourself?

Evan Nappen 04:09 Page – 2 – of 7

Instead, they want to focus it on the gun because it becomes another mechanism to go after guns. They particularly love to push suicide in states and areas where the murder rates are low and gun ownership is high. Then they go, “well we got to prevent suicides” so we need to get gun control here because they can’t sell the crime theme. Although today it’s not so important even to sell any theme, I guess. Because, particularly in Jersey, they’re just coming straight out now and say, “we’re here to control you”. It’s not even about crime or anything, but in other places where they’re still trying to have some guise, a scheme, then suicide prevention is one of the things they will try to abuse. And so, we now see this bill, this bipartisan so-called bill, to create this registry that you can put yourself into. Now, good luck getting yourself out of this, should you ever do it. But put yourself into this so you bar yourself. I guess if you’re masochistic, too, this is a wonderful thing. You just can’t stand having all these rights. I wish there was a way I could just end the having rights, like the right to have guns. Maybe there should be a list, so I lose my right to free speech. Because who knows what I might say? Or lose my right to remain silent or lose my other right. It’s amazing to even think we’re going to set up a law so that you cannot ever invoke your rights in whatever right this law wants to focus on.

Evan Nappen 06:01

Even if we look at this and say, hey, you know what? This is really well intended. This bill is just pure of heart. This bill is there so that individuals, you know, and if it saves just one life, it’s worth it. You know, we’re going to hear that crap. I mean, you have one life, and it’s worth it. Except when we talk about carry and your ability to defend yourself where we are going to save many lives, that’s not worth it, of course. It’s never worth it. But anything else where we can take away liberty and get bans and it saves one life, well, that’s gotta be worth it. It can save a life. But again, if this is pure of heart, and really giving it all the best intention, the problem is, well, there’s a famous quote about good intentions. That’s what the road to hell is paved with. And why is that said in that way? Well, I’ll tell you. It’s simple. Because once you have, if you were ever to have, this law, that you can sign away your Second Amendment rights and never be able to buy a gun again. And it’s being done for this wonderful, noble, pure hearted reason of trying to stop suicide, who can argue with that? What will happen is you will see mega abuse, mega abuse, of this list, because once the mechanism is in place where individuals can take themselves out of ever being able to be a gun owner. Once that mechanism is there, then you’ll start seeing it employed in all kinds of other areas.

Evan Nappen 07:50

For example, in a civil suit, let’s say, where an individual is suing another, and they say we want you to give up your gun rights if you want to settle this. We want you on this list for whatever reason, maybe divorces. I want you to give up your gun rights. You need to sign. For you to visit your children, and I’m scared of guns. I don’t ever want you to have a gun. You need to get on this no gun buy list. The only way I’ll be satisfied and so you can see your kids. Or employment. Employers could say we’re not going to hire you unless we know that you will not possess guns. We want you on the gun list where you sign yourself in that you will not be able to buy a gun. That’s the only way we’re going to hire you because we don’t want anybody that could possibly own a gun working for us. Or even on criminal matters where you don’t lose gun rights like misdemeanors. You are offered a plea bargain, but there’s a catch. You can take the misdemeanor as opposed to the felony, but we want you on the no by gun list. That’s the only way we’re going to settle it. Page – 3 – of 7

Evan Nappen 09:07

So, once this is out there, then it becomes a tool of anti-gun disenfranchisement. And that’s always what they’re about. They’re always about disenfranchising us of our gun rights. And here’s another mechanism to do it. So, now they essentially sucker Republicans into supporting it under this, how could you be against trying to do something to stop suicide ploy? Then once it’s in place, oh, now we start seeing it get abused. And you say, well, how can you say that Evan and why? Because I’ve seen gun law after gun law that was supposed to be limited and so well intended, end up abused beyond belief. Where the law itself on its face, there are people debating it. Whether it should be law. Whether you should approve it. Vote for it. They all think it’s going to be reasonably interpreted and what happens? It becomes unreasonable. Just look at how in New Jersey, the disqualifier, “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, is being abused by judges and issuing authorities to deny people for the dumbest, stupidest, most ridiculous reasons. But I’m sure when the law was being debated, and well, how could you want someone that would not be in the interest of public health, safety and welfare” to have a gun? Come on. Be reasonable. And what do we see? Abuse, abuse, abuse.

Evan Nappen 10:54

It’s always taking that inch and then making it a mile. This is like a constant sucker game, constantly fooling Republicans and other gun owners into giving up their rights. It seems like all they keep coming up with are new gambits. New gambits so you can disenfranchise more people. Hey, let’s ban those on the terrorist watch list. No one can be for terrorists. Except, how do you even get on or off the terrorist watchlist? Nobody knows. But sure. Sounds good. Hey, how about we limit just handguns? And then, of course, it’s no longer about handguns, because then it’s assault firearms. Then it’s why would you want that? Every day, some other new. Magazines that hold too many rounds are the problem. Every day, we got to keep salami tactics, salami tactics – take a slice, take a slice, take a slice. So, here’s their newest, most creative approach yet. Let’s see if we can get a law so that we can get individuals to voluntarily disenfranchise themselves and give up their right to keep and bear arms. I think we can find people that stupid, don’t you? So, here we are. Make sure you let your legislators know that you do not want to have any kind of law or mechanism on the books where individuals can voluntarily have their rights taken away from them, permanently. And then be abused and used and grow into some other monstrosity that has nothing to do with what it originally was sold on. Where there’s no limitations here. There never is, come on. Make sure you let them know that you’re not in favor of seeing this.

Evan Nappen 13:07

Plus, there are even just practical problems here. Even if someone’s on the list, how do you know if they’re on the list if it’s a private sale? How are you going to even know this? If someone’s on a no buy list, that just means they can’t buy from a dealer anyway. You tell me they can’t get a gun anywhere. Look, even with that, you can still get black powder firearms. There’s no dealer license. There’s no NICS check in most of the United States. Of course, if you buy it in New Jersey, they treat it as modern, but outside of New Jersey, it isn’t. You can still commit suicide just as easy with a black powder gun as you can with a smokeless powder gun. Then, of course, you still have every other means we’ve talked about. So, what it’s really about is, big surprise, gun control. Taking away rights, and figuring out the next scam, the next invention, to somehow keep accomplishing the goal of stealing our rights. Stay vigilant, folks, and make sure you really think about these things when you hear about them being proposed. They sound so reasonable and for such good cause. The more it’s like that, the more you Page – 4 – of 7

know to watch out. When we come back, I have an interesting letter here dealing with some fun stuff that goes boom.

Speaker 3 14:47

For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:01

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:08

You know this fight we’re in for our freedom, for our rights, is an amazing time. Really, right now. It’s an amazing time because the anti-gun movement is apparently just empowered and invigorated to try to take us down at every turn and to pass law after law despite the obvious unconstitutionality of these laws. We’re really getting to this apocalyptic battle coming up, particularly in New Jersey, where carry has been a goal for so long, for us to finally be able to get carry in New Jersey and not be victims anymore, but in fact defenders and to be able to have the most effective means to defend ourselves. And here, the antis after Bruen where we finally get rid of the block, the main obstacle, to a citizen, an honest citizen, getting a carry license, which is the old “justifiable need”. That was the anti-gun gambit of the past to make you have to show that you need to use deadly force before you need to use deadly force.

Evan Nappen 17:45

But with that being removed by the Bruen decision, what happens? Jersey comes back with the most egregious, most insane gun bill ever proposed. No exaggeration. It’s not hyperbole. Throwing everything at us but the kitchen sink, as the saying goes, to block individuals from carry. Sensitive places, mandating insurance, and adding all kinds of requirements and obstacles and burdens. Anything they can think of is jammed packed into this bill to somehow stop, admittedly to stop law-abiding citizens from having the right to defend themselves with the most effective means. This battle, though, has been a long time coming. We now are finally at the point where you know what, bring it on! Bring on this bill A4769 bill, bring it on. Put everything in it, as they say. Take your best shot. Because we’re going to take that best shot that you are throwing at us, and we are throwing back at you our best shot. We’re going to litigate this puppy, and you know what? We’re going to win. And when we win this one, that’s going to be the ultimate victory. Because they’ve tried it all in this bill. Once we crush them Page – 5 – of 7

here, once we destroy them in this bill, then we’ll finally have carry the way it should be. This is the final test. The final hurdle. I really believe that.

Evan Nappen 19:37

Look, I’m not saying the anti-gunners are going to stop trying to mess with us. Of course, they are. But once we have this victory of this magnitude over a bill this egregious and this atrocious, even if it takes this bill getting to the Supreme Court. This is the hurdle. This is the final one to really get our freedom established. And I’m glad that we got to this point. I’m amazed that we’re able to get to this point that we were able to get this. But in order for us to win, in order for us to fight this fight and have this battle, we have to have an organization behind us. We have to have forces on our side, ready immediately to bring this challenge, and to fight this glorious fight that we’re going to have. And I’m going to tell you right now, that’s why you need to belong to the sponsor of this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They will be there. They will be on the spot, like the Minutemen of the old days. They are going to be there seeking and litigating immediately when this law comes down. They will have the gun owners’ backs in New Jersey, and they’ll be in the glorious fight. We will see this battle unfold, and you need to be part of it. You need to be a member of the state Association. They have full-time paid lobbyists down in Trenton, and they keep you alert of everything going on in real time. They send out great alerts so that you can let the legislators in your area know, using the top computer programs and such through email that you can easily just push the button and it goes to the right people with the right message. It makes a difference. They have a fantastic newsletter, and it is our union of brothers and sisters in the fight for our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. You must belong to this group if you believe in the Second Amendment and what it means and its effect, and how you want it to be a force in New Jersey. This is the primary group, folks. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC.

Evan Nappen 22:28

It’s going to be very exciting here. I mean, I know it sucks on one hand that we have to fight this fight and that these people on the other side are so idiotic, and stubborn, and just full of hate for us. I know. But you know what? We’re going to fight the good fight. And that’s what life’s about here. Life is always conflict and fighting. And here, the good guys can win it. ANJRPC is where you find the good guys right there, and you can be part of that. You need to be part of that. So, please, if you’re not a member of ANJRPC, you need to join today. (anjrpc.org) You’ll see what I mean. I wouldn’t steer you wrong. I’m a Life Member. Now, it’s critical. It’s the most important thing you can do in New Jersey fighting for your rights.

Evan Nappen 23:34

So, I got an interesting letter here to the Ask Evan section, which I always love to get. It says hi, Evan, I love your podcast. I’ve been a loyal listener from the first episode. Well, thank you very much, and I do appreciate that. Is it legal to possess Tannerite in New Jersey? Is the use of Tannerite legal in New Jersey? Does New Jersey have laws regarding other types of reactive or exploding targets? Thank you for all you do and for providing the 2A community with the information necessary to keep us in the good grace of the law. Regards, Lou. Well, thank you, Lou. That’s a really good question, and I know Tannerite can be a lot of fun. It is one of the great recreational uses of explosives that are out there. But the question is what is Tannerite? And is it legal in New Jersey? Page – 6 – of 7

Evan Nappen 24:44

Well, Tannerite is a brand name, and it’s a type of explosive that is made from ammonium nitrate, ammonium perchlorate, and powdered aluminum, which aren’t explosives on their own, but are explosive when they’re combined. When you shoot them with a high powered, high velocity round, it’s called a binary explosive, and when you do that, it goes boom. It is something where if you don’t mix it and you don’t hit it with that type of a round, then it’s safe and it won’t explode. But once it is mixed, then it can make some pretty impressive noise, smoke, and explosive bang. And so, it’s become very popular. I guess technically what you have is it comes essentially with an oxidizer is basically what’s going on. And once you mix it, then you shoot it. That’s where you can get that explosive to go. The question here is, is Tannerite, it’s sold a lot in the US, all different places, sold specifically for the purpose of shooting and making it go bang for fun at target shooting. What about in New Jersey, specifically? Here’s where you can have a number of concerns, which I’m sure you’re not surprised to learn about in New Jersey. First of all, there is an issue right off the bat with prohibited persons possessing Tannerite even under federal law. If you’re a convicted felon or someone who’s otherwise a prohibited person for guns, then you can also be a prohibited person for possession of explosive materials. So, that right away just federally does create an entire class of persons that should not have anything to do with Tannerite.

Evan Nappen 27:18

But assuming you’re not otherwise a prohibited person but simply someone who lives in New Jersey, which is very similar to being a prohibited person because you’re living in New Jersey and the laws are so strict, and most people say anything that’s fun in Jersey, they try to ban it. At least when it comes to the stuff we like. And unfortunately, Tannerite is no exception, at least in terms of the risk that you could face. The rub comes in New Jersey, specifically under what is going to be, and this is in theory where you could get charged if you’re using Tannerite. Now I know that it’s a little vague out there and some people use it and get away with it. I hear you, but if the government, if the state wants to go after you, is there something they could charge you with? Yes, there is and what they would charge you with is possession of a destructive device. That would be what most likely you would face.

Evan Nappen 28:35

Destructive devices under New Jersey’s firearm and weapons law is under NJS 2C:39-3.c. A destructive device is, in its definition, “. . . any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce uncontrolled combustion, including any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade.” So, there’s a very broad stroke as to what a destructive device is. Now New Jersey even goes further and defines “Explosive” as well. New Jersey defines explosive under NJS2C:39-1. That’s where all the definitions are found. It’s under small letter e., and it says, “e. ‘Explosive’ means any chemical compound or mixture that is commonly used or possessed for the purpose of producing an explosion and which contains any oxidizing and combustible material or other ingredients in such proportions, quantities or packing that ignition by fire, by friction, by concussion or by detonation of any part of the compound or mixture may cause such a sudden generation of highly heated gases that the resultant gaseous pressures are capable of producing destructive effects on contiguous objects.”

Evan Nappen 30:13 Page – 7 – of 7

And that is pretty much what Tannerite does. We could have a battle of experts maybe trying to distinguish it out in some way. But essentially, it’s going to boil down to a jury question. It seems with the State doing demonstrations of Tannerite for the jury, and with what may have particularly happened in whatever the particular case where they’re charging that possession, I would have to advise against Tannerite in New Jersey. You can see based on destructive device and explosive and the definitions, how broad and encompassing they are. And unfortunately, you’re taking a risk. You’re taking a chance. As much fun as it is to have a target go boom, it’s not worth your getting involved in New Jersey’s criminal justice system. The harsh, extreme, draconian penalties that come along with it. Possession of destructive devices in New Jersey is a crime of the Third Degree. You are risking five years in state prison so that you can go bang at the target range, at the other end of the range other than your gun going bang.

Evan Nappen 31:33

So, you have to really be careful here. You need to be discreet and conservative. I love the idea of our freedom and not having to worry about these things. But unfortunately, I see every day what happens to good people in New Jersey. Good people that had no intention of getting involved in the criminal justice system; yet there they are. They are looking at having their futures destroyed, their families destroyed, their finances destroyed. Their hopes and dreams destroyed over New Jersey’s aggressive enforcement of its firearm and weapons laws. And I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New Jersey’s gun laws. So, don’t give them the opportunity to victimize you. Play it smart. Again, I’d like to thank ANJRPC as our sponsor. Please make sure you’re a member. Join today. I want to remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:51

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by email at Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E111_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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