Thoroughly Equipped: Recent Episodes
MelbaToast
A podcast for women where we take the time to compare popular Women's Ministry teachings, books, podcasts, videos, etc. to Scripture. The focus is 2Timothy 3:16-17, that all Scripture is God breathed and useful teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so the man (or woman) of God may be THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for every good work.
Have you heard Christians claim “doctrine divides”, “relationship trumps doctrine”, or something similar? Is this true? Should a Christian woman focus on developing a intimate relationship with God and put doctrine to the side?...
I have often heard women say, “that’s just your interpretation” when I’ve pointed out false doctrine. Is this true? Are there many interpretations of Scripture? Are there right and wrong ways to read and...
False gospels are the gangrene in the Church, and are the typical diet in women’s ministry today. What are these popular false gospels that are prevalent in women’s ministry? What is the problem many...
Popular evangelical Christianity teaches that God’s children need to hear the voice of God to live the fulfilling life God calls His children to. But is this true? Does Scripture teach that we need...
Can we discern what a popular female teacher believes about Scripture? Is what she believes about Scripture important? Why even discern this? What would discerning this mean for Christian women and women’s ministry? Let’s...
Is the popular women’s ministry producing what Christ calls His women to in Scripture? Let’s talk about it… Follow me on Facebook & Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/TEWMelbaToast https://www.instagram.com/thoroughlyequipped316/ Christian Podcast Community: Christianpodcastcommunity.org
Thoroughly Equipped Season 3 Episode 4 Since we have been diving into the IF:Ministry, listeners have asked how they can speak to their sisters who love the IF:Gathering and other teachers promoted there. In...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 3 Episode 3 At the 10 year anniversary of the IF:Gathering back in February, Jennie Allen announced a new calling from God to assemble the global church on March 1st 2025....
Thoroughly Equipped Season 3 Episode 2 An interesting spat occurred on X about a month ago over a post by Samuel Sey who stated that he had to discipline his 4 month old son....
Thoroughly Equipped Season 3 Episode 1 T.E. is back for a 3rd season! For episode one of this season I interview Doreen Virtue on her conversion from the New Age religion to Jesus Christ. ...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 39 Submission is often a controversial topic, and in Evangelical Women’s ministry is often ignored. But Scripture has a lot to say about submission. Do you struggle with submitting...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 39 Presenting Be the Bridge’s beginnings, history, and impact since it’s founding in 2016. Topics include: May this episode bless you and bring glory to God! Other resources: Striving...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 38 Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion has been a hot topic in the economic sphere, but it’s actually not limited there. This anti-racist infiltration has made a huge mark in...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 37 Be the Bridge Ministry has it’s white bridge builders start with teaching them about their whiteness; hoping to help them learn humility and grow in racial righteousness. The...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 36 Latasha Morrison made the New York Times Best Seller list for her book Be The Bridge. While the book informs Christians of the importance of racial reconciliation, it’s...
Exposing how Be The Bridge’s trains Christians to become Ant-Racists. Be The Bridge teaches its Bridge Builders to believe that God reflects certain aspects of His image in ethnicities; perpetuating a belief that its...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 34 Exposing how Be The Bridge presupposes the postmodern theory of Intersectionality and trains people up in the ministry to identify racism through historical narratives and the stand points...
Thoroughly Equipped Season 2 Episode 33 Exposing how the American Christian Church is accepting the tenants of Critical Race Theory through Be the Bridge’s ministry on racial reconciliation. This “ministry” trains people to believe...
Thoroughly Equipped S.2 Ep.32 What is Critical Race Theory? What does it teach? Should Critical Race Theory be used as an analytical tool? And is this theory something you should worry about? In this...
Season 2 Episode 14 No Transcript
S.2 Ep. 14 Thoroughly Equipped
A "2 Opposing Doctrines" episode with special guest Andrew Rappaport from Striving For Eternity. We discuss hermeneutic, the science of interpretation.
Topics discussed:
- What is Hermeneutics?
- Why is it important?
- Why should we study the Bible?
- Study of bible vs reading the bible as devotions, what’s the difference?
- What are the typical ways people misinterpret the Bible?
- How does one rightly handle the Bible?
- Why is context so important?
- What are the different types of context?
- What are the different types of literature?
- Why should women make an effort to learn hermeneutics?
- How does knowing hermeneutics help God’s women learn discernment?
Hope this episode blesses you and brings glory to God!
Other resources:
Striving for Eternity
Christian Podcast Community
S.2 Ep.13 Thoroughly Equipped Transcript
Introduction
Hello Ladies, and welcome back to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped. I’m so happy you have decided to listen in, if you are new, welcome! If this is your first listen to this podcast, we have been looking at the very popular women’s conference the IF:Gathering.
More specifically, we have been going over the session at the 2020 conference to look at the way the speakers handle Scripture. Jennie Allen, the founder and vision caster of the IF: Women’s Ministry, set up that year’s conference to be centered on Romans 8. with the intent of giving the audience “more of Jesus”. Jennie Allen rightly proclaimed that Romans 8 is an extremely theological passage; and when it’s handled correctly, is a beautiful chapter to dive into to not only find Christ, but learn about the absolute sovereignty over and keeping of God’s people in salvation, and the help and power of the Holy Spirit in our sanctification.
Today’s session is a message given by Sadie Robertson Huff on verse Romans 8:39, the very last verse of the chapter. And not even a full sentence but half the sentence. Whether that is on purpose we will find out. But before we get into Mrs. Robertson-Huff’s message let’s look at the verse in context.
If you have been following this series from the start you would pretty much have a good idea of what Paul is trying to teach the early church in Romans chapter 8. And that’s because we have looked at this chapter in each episode covering the IF 2020 Conference.
So we know that Paul in the previous 7 chapters was presenting his argument for WHY the Gospel was the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Rom.1:16), by first laying out the problem that every human being born of Adam is born with…the nature to sin, and that those with this sin nature are destined for wrath for God will judge all men (Rom. 1:28-2:11). Paul clearly argues that neither Jew nor Greek, circumcised or uncircumcised will be exempt from this judgment, even men who were not given the law as the Israelites were given, yet do what the law requires, show that the work of the law is written on their hearts (Rom.2:12-16). All men will be judged by this law, and even more so those who were given the Law. Paul spend chapters 3-5 arguing for the truth that no man is righteous all men are under sin (Rom 3:9-20, that only by faith in Jesus Christ are we counted righteous (Rom.3:21-26), that faith was always the way sinners were justified (all of Rom.4), that by this faith we have peace and reconciliation with God and have grace and life in Christ Jesus through his active obedience (Rom 5). In chapters 6 and 7, Paul then appeals to the Romans to understand that because of their faith in the work of Christ they are dead to sin and alive to God, to walk in newness of life slaves to righteousness. And because they are set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit they receive leads to sanctification and eternal life. Christ who has fulfilled the Law perfectly for us, has now become our husband, the law being our old husband who was put to death, so that we may now serve Him in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Towards the end of chapter 7, Paul informs the readers that the law was not sin, but exposed our sinful nature, it is the means by which God reveals how we are not righteous, how we will be judged, exposing how there is no good dwelling in our flesh. By the law we see how we do not love God and neighbor, and in this knowledge we are brought to a desperate cry for God to show mercy.
And then Paul writes the beautiful truths that are in Romans 8. That there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because he did what the flesh could not do and condemned sin in His flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Rom.8:1-4). He urges and encourages those of us who are in the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh, because we are God’s children. And though we suffer, and are subjected to this sinful world we long, in the Spirit, to be set free from it and our flesh. And God who is faithful, will one day set us free from corruption and bring us to himself as adopted sons and daughters. Until then, the Spirit intercedes for us, knowing the mind of God, and works all things together for the good of those who are called according to his purposes. We are secure in this hope because it is all God’s doing, all his work, all for his glory. He predestined us in eternity past to be conformed to the image of his Son, and those whom he predestined, he calls, and those whom he calls, he justifies, and those whom he justifies he glorifies.
Now this is where we will read the text starting at verse 31.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be9 against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, (this is Sadie’s verse) 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul is presenting to the Church, the undeniable, set in stone, argument for our hope. And that is God Himself. That God, who did not even spare his own Son to save the people that he foreknew, will not spare or allow ANYTHING to ever separate us from His love. I mean, just think about this, ladies. I have a son. A son I love very, very much. Would I sacrifice him to save someone else’s child? And not just anyone’s child, but my enemy’s child or even my enemy? Would you? We are talking about a love here, that we struggle in our sinful nature to understand and grasp, and yet the love is not the only point of Paul’s argument, though it is the strongest. Within this argument is the nature and power of God himself, that while God in his great love sacrificed his son for us, there is also God’s power. That same power that creates and sustains all things (Prov.16:4; Act 17:28; Col. 1:17; Heb.1:3) was at work in predestining you to hear and receive the Gospel, to be given faith to believe, to work in you to sanctify you and make you holy, and that same power that raised Jesus from the dead will raise you to glory in new bodies without decay and corruption. That is HOW Paul can say that we are more than conquerors and that NOTHING can separate us from the perfect, right, true, powerful love of God through Christ Jesus.
These verse, at the end of Chapter 8, are meant to bring us to an understanding of God’s work in the salvation of his people, and the keeping of them for all of this life and into eternity. There are no more comforting, empowering truths, than these for the church of God. And it should trouble us GREATLY if someone mishandles this text, and wants to make it about something else. Why should it trouble us if one doesn’t teach this from this passage? Because 1) we are sinners, weak in our flesh and faith. We continually need to be reminded that our salvation was God’s work. We need to be reminded so that we give God the glory that he so rightly deserves. 2) We need to understand this because with the salvation given to us by faith in the Gospel comes a hope. The hope of being with Christ, set free from our flesh, and reigning with him in an incorruptible new heavens and new earth. This hope reminds us that we were not alone in our temptations and trials, Jesus too was tempted and yet is without sin. We, who are tempted and have fallen into sin, have a high priest who understands yet intercedes for us (Heb.4:15). And 3) we need to understand this because this hope is in what we cannot see yet, but is made assured by the work that God already has done- the Gospel. This hope always reminds us of WHO our faith is in. Christ.
So is this where Sadie Robertson-Huff will go in her message?
Let’s dive in and find out:
Mrs. Robertson Huff starts here message with what she calls a “church moment”. By this she means a sharing of what God is doing within the church. She tells a story of how she had visited some colleges and was very encouraged by how the young college students would quote “stand up on their feet saying ‘yes, I’m gunna follow Jesus. I don’t care what it’s gunna look like tomorrow, I don’t care what my passes look like. I’m saying yes to Jesus because he changes everything” end-quote. And that these young people just cannot contain themselves worshiping. Her purpose in stating this is to encourage people to know that God is moving within the colleges and in the younger generation.
She then prays before getting into her message, asking God to use her message to inspire the women there to take revival back with them to the places that these women are going. Now, normally, I wouldn’t play clips of prayers within a message, but her prayer here reveals something about Scripture, about the word of God itself. And I think it’s an underlying belief that a lot of popular Christian speakers may have, in fact, I think it’s what a lot of the typical evangelical Christians believe about revival and conferences in general. So I’ll play the clip and explain. Play clip 1
Ok, so when we pray we are coming to God, asking Him for certain specific things. And in this case, Sadie is asking that God use her message to quote “revive their hearts and bring revival back with them to the places where they are going”. That her message would be something that would change these women from the inside out, bringing new life because that is what God does and it is who his Spirit is. Here’s the problem: she believes that these things can be accomplished through her words and message. I, on the other hand believe, these things are accomplished through the words of God and Gospel message of Jesus Christ, those all being found in Scripture and Scripture ALONE.
What you believe about the means that God uses to bring revival is how you determine the method of encouraging revival or new life. If one believes that it is God’s words that effect change, then, when delivering a message one will want to use God’s word, expound on God’s word, and teach God’s word to bring about change. This is what is called the efficacy of Scripture. That the Scripture not only has authority, is not only without error, that it is not only sufficient, but that it has power.
But if you believe God uses your words and influence to encourage and change women from the inside out, then those are the words you will use in your message. You will use your personal ideas, your philosophies, your experiences, lessons you have learned, etc. to bring what you believe will be life to your hearers. And I truly believe that most of the popular female speakers within the evangelical women’s ministry of today actually believe that God uses these things to bring revival.
This comes from the belief that we help people choose to follow Christ with our testimonies.
The thing is…they would be right if true revival came as a result of seeing how others “gave their lives to Christ”. If the good news was that Jesus can make your life have purpose, and the testimony of Christ was about how he changed your life.
Don’t get me wrong, these things are not bad, but they are not the message that changes hearts, they are fruits of a changed heart. We behave as though these fruits are the message that people need to hear. The… “God has changed my life and given me purpose and he can for you too” type of evangelism. But the message that people need to hear that is the POWER of God unto salvation is the life, words, and death of someone else. True revival does not come from acknowledging the blessings and fruits that come from a changed life or from finding purpose. True revival comes from the acknowledgement of our sin, the crying out for a savior, and the pure dependance on and faith in Christ and His word.
I recently read a wonderful book by Johnathon Edwards titled “The Distinguishing Marks of the Work of the Spirit of God”. In it Mr. Edwards lays out for us how to differentiate between real revival and false revival. I hope to do an episode to talk about this in the future because it seems to me that this talk of revival is common and even growing within the evangelical sphere, as we see examples of this type of talk within the IF:Gathering.
But what I’m trying to explain here, is how this belief, that God will use our stories and experiences to change hearts and bring new life, is really the material they use to build up their audience. But if it’s not the word of God then it will not stand up to the fiery trial. Paul in 1 Corin 3:10-15 expounds upon this.
According to the grace of God given to [Paul], like a skilled master builder [he] laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
The church is God’s field, God’s building. Sadie, by being a teacher, is participating in watering that field or building on a foundation. And either she is building the audience up with the firm materials of God’s word or she is building with weak materials such as her own words, her own knowledge and experience. The same goes for all the speakers at this conference. And that is the perfect thing to keep in the back of our minds as we go through her message. Let’s determine what she is using to build us up.
Now she presents the starting point of her message on story in John 21 of a conversation between Jesus and Peter. She talks a bit about how close Peter and Jesus were. How wherever Jesus went, Peter wanted to be with Him, how Peter and Jesus were “best friends”, and how bold Peter was in regards to Jesus. Yet when Jesus was arrested, Peter turned away from Christ in fear. She then goes into the setting of the John 21 passage and the breakfast with Jesus after the resurrection that happens around a charcoal fire. Play clip 2
Ok, hold on a sec. So from the historical fact that there was a fire in one of the times that Peter denied Christ, and then there was a fire when Jesus was cooking fish, she gets that we so often think of our past when we are in the presence of Jesus? First of all, both fires are not identified as charcoal. In the recording of the Gospels of Peter’s denials there is only the description of a fire or a telling that Peter was warming himself (which we would assume he was warmed by a fire, but we don’t know what kind). And while there was a time that Peter denies Christ while warming himself near a fire, there are still two other instances of denial that don’t talk of fires being nearby. So why she emphasizes that, I don’t know. But also in the telling of the breakfast and conversation between Jesus and Peter in John 21 we have NO clue what Peter is thinking? Does it really matter what he was thinking? It wasn’t important to the writers of the Gospels, or they would have included it. What was important and what IS important is what Christ says and does in this passage. He restores Peter.
Now Mrs. Robertson-Huff goes into this, talks about how Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him. But I’m curious at this point what this has to do with Romans 8:39?
She talks about how she had recently given this message in which she relayed how in the text, after being restored and told about his mission and his death, the next thing we see Peter doing is miraculous works by the power of the Holy Spirit, but that she was wrong. There is one instance right after his restoration that we see him mentioned. Play clip 3
OOOHH…Kay? This is interesting, yes. Why would Peter ask about John? I’m sure the answer is an interesting one. BUT what does it have to do with Romans 8? We will keep going. Play clip 4
So John mentions this in his writings to clarify a rumor (Sadie seems to imply) that Paul spread because he focused on what Jesus is doing in John’s life instead of looking at what Jesus is doing in his own life. This is the point and issue she want to address in her message: Play clip 5
Ladies, she has 1) been inserting into the text things that are not there, drawing conclusions based on these insertions. Nowhere does it describe Peter as missing what God is doing in his life because he “turned” to focus on the Apostle John. Peter is LITERALLY turning his body to point to John. There is no spiritual meaning in the word turn here. And Peter’s literal turning of his body did not cause Peter to miss out on anything. (I mean, COME ON!, the whole point of Romans 8:31-39, which includes her verse, is about how we WILL be conformed to the image of Christ (vs.29) and NOTHING will keep that from happening because God’s power and Christ’s love will accomplish it. Not even our turning to focus on what God is doing in someone else’s life. Again, just this idea that God is dependent on us to do his will
2) She will now take a historical context and try to draw out a spiritual problem from them from which she will give us her solution or advice to fix said problem. Listen in…play clip 6
So the spiritual problem she wants to warn us not to “turn” and focus on what God is doing in others, but instead to focus on what God is doing in our lives and understanding that God is building our testimony. By turning, we may miss out. What might we miss out on? Giving our testimony to others, because in our testimony there is power. Play clip 7
Ok. Do you see the connection between what she is claiming here and what I mentioned about her prayer? She truly believes that her experiences are what bring new life to people. That her testimony converts people. And she believes our testimonies do the same.
So let’s set the record straight here. Let’s ask if her claim is true. Does Scripture claim that our testimonies have this type of power? What she clearly means by testimony is in direct relation to her story of the conversation between Peter and Jesus. So remember, in this passage Jesus is restoring Peter calling him to the Apostleship (feed my sheep, tend my sheep) and prophesying to Peter what kind of death he was to glorify God (verse 19 of John chapter 21). So by testimony she means what God is doing in the life of an individual, what He has called them to and how God is glorified in their life experiences (or providential appointments, as seen in Peter’s death).
So to answer this question I looked up all the passages that talk about testimonies, testifying, and even declaring. Most were describing God declaring, or prophets declaring for God, but I wanted to find testimony or testifying of God’s work in an individual life being used to bring salvation. Specifically, I want to see if Scripture claims what she claims, that testifying of God’s work in our lives has power to bring the dead to life.
First, we need to make it very plain that what she means by bringing the dead to life is spiritual death to spiritual life, being dead in our trespasses and sins and raised to new life is our salvation. Second, we need to see what it is that brings about this salvation. And finally, from that we can determine if testifying to others of what God is doing or has done in our lives is how salvation is brought about.
I’m going to look at 2 passages that talk about being dead spiritually and raised to new life in Christ.
Let’s look at Col. 2:8-14 first:
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
From this passage we can glean that it is through faith in the powerful working of God that God uses to make us alive with Christ. By this faith God forgives us of all our tresspasses, by canceling out the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demand, He set these aside, nailing it to the cross. So 2 things to note here: that by faith we are saved, and that this faith is in direct connection to Christ, the cross, His burial, and His resurrection. Keep these in mind.
2nd passage we’re going to look at is Ephes. 2:1-8:
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
3 things to note in this passage. 1) That it is by grace that we are saved as it clearly says in verse 5. 2) that the grace of this salvation is through our faith and 3) that again we are made alive with Christ in reference to Christ’s resurrection as Paul mentions in his prayer, right before this passage in verse 19 & 20. By which he prays that the Ephesians know …and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places…
So now we know that the raising of the dead to newness of life is our salvation and that it is a gift of grace by God through our faith. We are saved by grace through faith. But faith in what? Faith in the testimony of God’s work in an individual’s life? We can see from these 2 passages that the faith is connected to Christ, the cross, his burial, and his resurrection. And notice that Paul called these works of Christ a POWERFUL WORKING OF GOD? Yep. Paul is describing the Gospel in these passages and he solidifies this by claiming in Romans 1:16 that it is the Gospel that IS the power of God unto salvation. Not our testimonies. But THE testimony or declaration of Christ dying on the cross for our sins and being raised for our justification.
Now she uses historical accounts found in the Gospels as examples of -quote “people getting close to Jesus” because of others declaring to them the healing and miraculous work He did for them. But they do not describe these people as becoming disciples nor as being saved. You have to understand…Jesus hadn’t gone to the cross yet, he hadn’t died, and he hadn't been raised to life 3 days later. We also see that though many followed Jesus after hearing about the miracles He did for others, once he started proclaiming that he would die and especially, when He stated that the bread He will give to the world will be His flesh, and that one must feed on His flesh and drink His blood to receive eternal life, we see in John 6:66 after stating this hard truth… many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”. So, while people came “close to Him” by hearing and seeing the miracles He did, they departed from Him because of the words He said, the teachings he taught, and the Gospel he proclaimed to them.
It’s the same today. We can talk about all the good things God is doing in our lives, how he brought us out of a slavery to sin, or healed us in some way, or gave us some purpose. And these are good to talk about. The Scriptures often talk about declaring to others the wonderful works of the Lord (Psalm 22:22; 35:28; Dan 4:2, among many others) but there is only 1 Testimony that brings salvation, and that is the testimony that the Helper, the Holy Spirit testifies of, who testifies on Christ’s behalf (John 15:26-27), the testimony given by the Apostles, the same testimony laid out for us in 1John 1:1-10:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The testimony that has power, the testimony that saves is the proclamation that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Ok, I know that was a lot there but it was necessary. So let’s move on.
Mrs. Robertson Huff goes on to say that both Peter and John “got it” they didn’t focus on what God was doing in other people’s lives but what He was doing in theirs and went on to write epistles.And it was because they both took their eyes off each other and started following Christ. But what is it to us that their life looks like that, she asks. play clip 8
Now I’m not sure if that last part was her implying that that should be why we are following Jesus, or if it is actually her talking to Jesus saying that is why she follows Him. I imagine its a bit of both. But regardless, notice what is missing from that. Yes, we want to follow God because He said to, yes, because He has a plan, and yes, because we should want to do His will. But we also follow for the same reason the Disciples stayed with Him when all other left “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God. Who else has the solution to our sin problem? Who else gives righteousness and eternal life? Who else reconciled us to God?
I’m curious…Sadie says she doesn’t want to miss it, and by that she means, following Jesus, her purpose, and God’s will for her life. But what of these other things?
She continues, and talks about the -quote “good word” that Bianca Olthoff presented on Romans 8:31-39 and relays how just like for Paul, nothing could separate Peter from the love of Christ. And though nothing could separate Peter from Christ’s love, who might be distracting us from Christ’s love: Play clip 9
Back to this problem she’s set up for us. That we get distracted by other people, specifically, that we are distracted by the work of God in other people’s lives. This really is just ridiculous. No where, and I mean no where are we warned to not let the work that God is doing in other people’s lives distract us from the love of Christ. And this is MOST certainly NOT what Paul is trying to warn us of in Romans 8:31-39. I’m sorry, but I don’t think looking at the work God is doing in other people’s lives is a problem. In fact, I think it’s actually encouraged. We see all throughout the Old and New Testament God telling us to observe or meditate on the works he did in Abraham’s life, the works He did in Moses’ life, David’s life, Ester’s life, etc. For their stories were written down for this very reason. Observing the works of God in anyone’s life is not a distraction but is edification to our souls and gives us license to praise Him for what He has done.
Paul is not trying to point us to the RECKLESS love of Christ, either. I don’t think Paul would ever describe Christ’s love as reckless. Reckless means without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action. In fact, in Romans we see that the love and work of God, through Christ was VERY intentional, planned from eternity past. They were the intended act of love. And that everything we go through was predestined or you could say planned with the express intention of conforming us to the image of Christ. Christ’s love, and God’s work in our salvation are the exact opposite of reckless. Christ’s love it is not reckless, is almost the exact point Paul is trying to express. Because it is so planned and intentional, and not reckless, our salvation is secure.
But Sadie continues…she begins to talk about how her now husband, pursued her before they were married. That it was so beautiful, intentional, and godly. I won’t play that clip because of time, but i found this very ironic to say the least. How her husband’s pursuit of her was intentional and is mentioned next to godly. Yet Jesus’ love is reckless. But I digress…
She talks about how when they were dating she would investigate his instagram and compare herself to other women he would be pictured with, and complain to him that she’s just not good enough. How sometime, in her past, someone had told her how the boy she was dating was out of her league. And how she had sabotaged other relationships with this type of thinking. And just like she did this to her husband, she thinks we do that with God. Play clip 10
She sets this up like we shouldn’t believe, when it comes to Christ’s love, that we aren't good enough. But Scripture says that this is true, we are not good enough. That is the entire point that Paul has been arguing for in Romans 1- 7. We aren't good enough. Our sinful nature prevents us from being good and the Law exposes that about us. We may even have the desire to be good but our flesh keeps us from it. The solution is not to be convinced that we are good enough for God’s love, but acknowledge we are not and trust in the love of God worked out through the life, death and resurrection of Christ, so that the Holy Spirit may work in us, helping us put to death the deeds of the flesh, putting to death our sin, and walking in the Spirit (Romans 8:1-28).
She then goes on to list reasons why we don’t believe we are good enough to be loved. Play clip 11
And that’s it for her message. She goes on to pray and thank God that he is chasing after them with reckless love (making it the third time in this message that she identifies God’s love as reckless), she prays that they rest in the knowledge that Christ on the cross for their sins quoting John 3:16, and this is the only reference to the expression of God’s love through Jesus Christ.
What did ANY of that have to do with Romans 8:39 or even Romans 8 in general?
Instead of even addressing the verse she merely states that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ, focuses on drawing out a spiritual problem from a historical recording of a conversation between Peter and Jesus, and has no biblical support for that spiritual problem nor any support for dealing with the problem. But we are taught to not focus on the work of God in others so we are not distracted and just know we are enough to be loved and that nothing can separate us from the reckless love of God.
What did you think, ladies? How well did Sadie Robertson-Huff handle the text? Or even handle John 21? What do you think about this way of describing God’s love as reckless? And what do you think about our testimonies? Do you believe they have the power to raise the dead to life? Email me at thoroughlyequipped316@gmail.com. And tell me what you think.
Before I end this program I just want to present my conclusion to this 3rd part of the series on the IF:Gathering. We’ve spent 7 episodes looking at the 2020 conference to assess the way these speakers handle Scripture, how they handle Romans chapter 8. I hope I have clearly shown how they have twisted scripture at times, changed meanings to words, took historical text and tried to make it prescriptive of spiritual issues, twisted passages to imply that they are talking about what they want to talk about. There was a lot of talk about problems we should be addressing, such as fighting off negative thoughts as Jennie Allen taught. We should be treasuring the Spirit that lives within us so that our lives look supernatural as Beth Moor taught. We are not to be controlled by fear that causes us to be perfectionists, controlling, compare ourselves with others, produce unhealthy competition, etc. and to accept our adoption and open our inheritance to accomplish our callings as Jo Saxton taught. We are not to count our resources when we question our callings but count on Jesus and just be faithful where we are ass Ruth Cho-Simons taught. We are to be on guard by knowing that we possess a power within us and that we are more than conquerors through Christ as Bianca Juarez-Olthoff taught. We are not to turn inward but become way-finders by turning and being found by the Waymaker as Ann Voskamp taught. And as shown in this final episode of part three, we are not to turn and get distracted by observing the work of God in others lives. That’s quite a bit to work on. No mention if any of these are sinful things to do. And I really hope I’ve shown that these issues are not talked about in Romans 8. But in fact, I hope I’ve shown that Romans 8 is all about God’s work, our putting to death the deeds of the flesh, our weakness and the Spirit’s strength, God’s selecting and keeping of us unto salvation, and the conforming of His people to Christ, our sanctification, and in the end our glorification. This chapter, except for the instruction to put to death the deeds of the flesh (which is still done in the Spirit) isn’t really instructing us but bringing to our knowledge the power of God in His keeping and working in us, all the way to the end, through the love and work of Christ, so that our faith in God would grow. What a better message!! Why wouldn’t they want to encourage these women up into this message?
Jennie Allen stated how she didn’t think there was a more theological chapter in the Bible and that we would get alot of Jesus with her hope that we left the conference loving Him more. Can she honestly say that these messages gave that very rich theology that we find in the Chapter? Could she really say that Christ was really proclaimed? Did this conference deliver what she promised?
I don’t think so.
Wanna know what theology can be gleaned from this text? Wanna hear what a message that draws out Christ from this text would sound like? Listen to the sermon series on this chapter given by Martin Llyod Jones. You will be edified greatly and end the series knowing God, relying on the Spirit, and loving Christ more. I will provide a link to the Martin Llyod Jones Trust website where you can simply type in Romans 8 in the search box and listen to all his wonderful sermons.
So ladies, until next time, I pray you have been blessed to dive into Romans 8 and have seen the difference between what it says and what these speakers claim it’s about. I pray that through these episodes you’ve been exposed to the way speakers can twist Scripture or neglect it. Learning for yourself how to compare what one says to Scripture. In fact in the final episode of part 3 I will have a special guest on to help us learn how to handle Scripture correctly and how to study it for ourselves.
I pray that you trust that…
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
(Eph 1:11-14)
I pray you are in His word
MelbaToast
https://www.mljtrust.org/free-sermons/book-of-romans/?gclid=CjwKCAjw_b6WBhAQEiwAp4HyIDnwBzK7h7iZaOsJuwEdR9pNHIPaEhIB-phgmY-tnH9gCZZtO_609hoCzN0QAvD_BwE
S. 2 Ep. 12 Thoroughly Equipped Transcript
Ann Voskamp Rom 8:32 Message Critique
Introduction
Hello Ladies and welcome back to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped. I thank you for joining me, and am impressed if you have stuck with me on this journey through the IF:Gathering Conference. I honestly, am questioning my own sanity right now and we haven’t even gotten into some of the real issues with this ministry in this part of the series. But if you are new WELCOME!
For those of you who are new, I’ll just lay a little background into this season of Thoroughly Equipped and how we got here. Back in February I had planned to go through Rachel Hollis’s book “Girl, Stop Apologizing” when I got the promo clip for the 2022 If:Gathering Conference. Last season, I had done a critique on Jennie Allen (the founder and visionary of the IF parachurch women’s ministry), on her book “Get Out of Your Head: A Study in Philippians”. I had a big issue with how she brought in positive psychological tools such as “cognitive behavior techniques”, “mind mapping”, using “awe” to diminish the self, and implementing so called weapons such as silence, intentionality, connection, humility, etc, as tools to sanctify our thought spirals. It bothered me greatly that she 1) imposed her psychological ideas within the text of Philippians, and 2) that she undermines the authority and sufficiency of Scripture to sanctify God’s women and their thoughts by incorporating these techniques into her book and encouraging the women reading it to implement them. And with that in my mind, I decided to check out the IF:Conference. Finding out I had access to watch the last couple of years conferences I dived in. And boy was I troubled by what I saw and heard.
I decided that it was time to tackle this deeply and thoroughly. And that's what I am doing here.
At this point I have watched 40 hours of conference sessions, that’s 3 years of conferences- 2020, 2021, and 2022. And just cause I’m a glutton for punishment, I am now watching some of 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020’s IF:LEAD Conferences as well. There is a lot we will be discussing in the coming episodes of T.E.
But to lay out the way I am attacking this critique, I have split it into portions or parts if you wanna call it that. The first part was addressing the purpose of the IF ministry itself. The second part I addressed the speakers that are popular and repeatedly teach at this conference. I also gave a short synopsis of these women’s ministries and looked at their titles at the churches they minister to. I wanted to present a litmus test for you to be able to see just how authoritative they believe Scripture is. Determining if they submit to the clear directives given to women in Scripture on their roles in ministry is a clear way by which we can judge whether we should come up under their teaching. For they make disciples after either themselves or Christ, that is the effect of their work. It was clear from most of these women’s ministries that they have no qualms about undermining the instructions given to women by God that they are not to teach or hold authority over men in the church congregation. For most of these women they call themselves pastors and preach over men and women in local congregations.
We are currently in part 3, looking at how these popular female speakers, who call themselves prominent leaders within the typical evangelical women’s ministry, how they handle Scripture. And the IF:Gathering 2020 conference was a great way to asess this, as Jennie Allen had each speaker give a message on a portion of Romans 8. She rightfully described this chapter in Romans as one of the most theologically rich chapters in all of Scripture. So if this is the case we should be learning a lot about God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But I have to say, the theology has been very lacking. We have heard alot about what we should and shouldn’t be doing such as, acknowledging that God satisfied our greatest need so we can live our lives with no condemnation (never actually going into HOW God satisfied our greatest need), we’ve heard how we need to take control of our negative thoughts, that we need to cherish what is in us so we can live supernatural lives, that we are not to be slaves to our fears but are to open up our inheritance to accomplish our callings, to not count our resources and trust in Christ even when we feel lost in our callings, and that we are to be onguard for what God wants to do in our lives and know we are more than conquerors in this life.
Today’s message is given by Ann Voskamp on Romans 8:32. So before we dive into her session, let’s look at the verse in context. And we are going to go way back to the end of Romans 7 and the beginning of Rom 8 to really get the context of this verse.
Paul has just explained how NO man is righteous before God, that ALL have sinned and are destined for God’s wrath. And then he looks inward at his own life, seeing the war that rages between his flesh and his spirit, and acknowledges that he does not have the ability, within his flesh, to obey the law of God like he desires to. After identifying the sin that is within him he states this:
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Here is the verse Voskamp is to teach on32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom.7:24-8:39
Now, the reason I wanted to go that far back into the text was because Paul in this verse is pointing back to WHAT GOD DID THROUGH THE GIVING OF HIS SON, and How Christ gave His life for us, AND all the things that come with Christ. Those details were given through the whole chapter.
First we see that we are set free from condemnation because God gave us his Son, who willingly came to live a perfect life of obedience to the Father and in that same obedience go to the cross to become sin for us. And He is raised for our justification; conquering sin, death and the devil. And we who are in Christ are conquerors over sin, death and the devil as well. For those whom God foreknew he predestined to be conformed into the image of his Son. God predestined his people, he calls his people, he justifies his people, and glorifies his people. God, by the Holy Spirit indwells in his people to put to death the deeds of the body, to suffer with them in this sin infested world, to pray and intercede for them when they are weak, and will one day raise them up with new bodies, glorified and without sin. God really does give us all things. All things needed to reconcile us to God, all things needed to thoroughly equip us for every good work, all things needed to overcome sin, all things needed to fight this evil age, and all things needed to bring us into the next, into eternity.
Now let’s look specifically at the verse that Ann Voskamp is to teach on. Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
This is a wonderful verse. There is so much Mrs. Voskamp can dive into from this verse. First, she can talk about how God did not spare his own Son, she could talk about the sending of his Son, the plan from eternity past to give his Son (1Pet.1:20). For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all— the testimony that was given at just the right time (1Tim.2:6). She could talk about God’s giving of the Son, why Christ was given, and what for.
That…
”he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
(Is.53:2-12)
She could go into this and from it show us since God the Father sent forth his Son, to pour out His wrath upon HIm, and the Son willing went to the cross to pay for our iniquities, there is nothing God will not do to keep His people. He will give them all things to equip, guide, instruct, strengthen, etc to keep them and bring them to glory, to bring them to Himself. Nothing can keep us from the love of Christ. All these things could be brought to our attention by Ann Voskamp. So, is this what she will present to us?
Let’s dive into her message and find out.
Mrs Voskamp starts her message sorrowfully stating how one of her children confessed to not wanting to follow Jesus anymore. She explains that there is no greater joy than to quote “see your people walk with Jesus and no greater anguish than to see your people walk away from Jesus. And wonder if it’s because of the way you are walking” end quote. She proclaims that at any point there may be times when we are desperate for someone to hand us a compass to show us the way through because we don’t know how to change who we are. And then she talks about her own struggles in the past. Let’s listen in because this is her set up for her message.
Play clip 1
Ok, She’s right here. This is what our sinful nature does. This is the curse we, who were born from Adam, deal with. ALWAY looking inward, always loving ourselves, naturally born to desire our will not God’s. This is not just her sin, but the sin nature that we all have. Is she going to state this? Is she going to call out how the believers are to wrestle with this sin and how the unbelievers are to repent of this sin?
Let’s keep listening
Play clip 2
So the first thing she states there is that when we turn inward then nothing turns out the way we hope. Basically, the problem of this sinful nature is that it keeps things from turning out the way we hope, not that it is an affront to a Holy God, not that the result of this sin nature to turn inward is death and eternal torment and hell, but it is merely a disruption of our hopes. But what if our hopes were turned inward to? What if the things we hope for are selfish and self-centered, for our comfort, and done in love of our sinful desires?
Now she relays how we in our sinful nature have a tendency to turn to the law to save us as she says, Quote: I’ll hustle, if You (God) help. And it does tend to make one a hero in their story. Thinking that one is made right with God by obeying the Law (if this is what she means by “hustle”) will either bring one into despair (if they understand the Law rightly) or pride, because they actually think they keep it like the rich young ruler proclaims in Matt 19:16-22. But is the Hustle that she talks about here in regards to obedience to the Law or is it hustling for something else? Hustling to accomplish our hopes, perhaps?
Play clip 3
Ok, some of you may be scratching your heads here. I know I was. And it took me a bit to figure out what she was talking about. She’s so flowery with her words here, using parables as metaphors and phrases that are confused in meaning. But one of the problems here is that she seems to equate being a lost sheep with being disciples of Christ whose hopes don't turn out as they plan. The parable of the prodigal son is related to the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coin. They were told in response to the grumbling of the Pharisees, saying “This Man receives sinners and eats with them” (Luke 15:2). These stories were told to reveal how the Messiah was sent not to call the righteous but to call the sinners to repentance (Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31). The prodigal son parable is about the repentance of the sins this dishonoring son committed and the mercy and forgiveness granted by the Father. It’s not about how God makes, quote “a way for the prodigals, makes a way for the impossibles”. The goal is very vague. Make a way for WHAT? Make a way for salvation? Make a way to be made right with God? Make a way to end the curse of sin? What is Mrs. Voskamp’s end goal? Is it these things? Or is the goal our hopes and dreams coming to pass? And what does this have to do with our walk? Or the faith of those who observe our walk as stated in the beginning of her message?
She continues on talking about how in this time of despair she found herself lost, driving a rental car in the middle of Tennessee on the way to a women’s conference, when (she claims) her phone miraculously connects to this rental car’s bluetooth and plays a download she was trying to get. It plays John 14 where Thomas asks Jesus “How can we know the way?”
On this ride she states that she was praying and begging God to show her the way.
Play clip 4
Now I’m not going to exegete her experience. Neither will I question that it even happened. But I do wonder why this experience is what brought her hope. Why did God’s Word not bring her the hope and comfort that she sought, but this experience did? I do find comfort, and my faith does grow in providential experiences. When we understand that God is at work in providence, it solidifies our faith that God is Sovereign and does all He pleases. But why use her experience to encourage women who are lost, who are like the prodigal son and lost sheep? Why talk about her experience and not talk about God’s word? And especially not talk about THE WAY that Christ reconciled His lost Sheep to Himself.
Listens to where she goes here:
Play clip 5
“What impossible you are begging God for right now”...This is left open to WAY to much personal interpretation. One woman can interpret her “impossible” to be some worldly thing. A job, her weight, her family issues, some type of political issues she wants to see fixed. I mean this could be all sorts of things to women. The issue is what did Thomas mean by “the way” and what does Jesus mean by “the way”? The way TO WHAT? Let’s look at this passage in John 14.
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.4 From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
(John 14:1-7)
So when Thomas is asking to know the way, he’s asking to know the way to where Jesus is going. And Jesus says here that he is going to the Father. So Thomas is asking for Jesus to show them the way to the Father. Not just a way to or through the impossible that we are begging God for. And this is why her message is going to only get more and more confusing because she will continue to say Jesus is the way but make the goal or the endpoint of that way the “impossible that we are begging Jesus for”. The end point of the “Way” is subjective and determined by the individual, when “the Way” that Jesus is talking about in Scripture is Himself, and the destination is the Father.
Now here’s another thing about what she said in the last part of this clip. Is God’s love lavish and wasteful? Lavish means sumptuously rich, elaborate, or luxurious. This I would agree with, but wasteful? No. wasteful means using or expending something of value carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose. Everything God does is to accomplish his purposes, there is a reason and there is a goal, and all is for his glory, even the works he does in his love (Isa.46:8-11).
I am not fond of the sensual description of God’s love. Now from here she gets even more flowery in her words describing the Father in the parable as defying the Patriarchy at the time, by running to the prodigal, and in doing so casting shame upon himself. She describes herself as the prodigal, coming back to game plan to work it all out.
Play clip 6
Ok, digging through all the flowery, poetic, sensual speech, and it’s really hard to know what she is talking about. She keeps talking about “the Way” but the way to what? It’s not clear. Using flowery speech may sound good and tickle our ears but it has no meaning if she is not defining her terms here. For some the way could mean that The Father makes a way through our troubles and pains. And that sounds a lot like what she is trying to say here. And I would agree with her, in a way, if this IS what she means, but what is the connection in what she is teaching to what Paul is teaching in Romans 8:32? Is the way she talks about here, the way TO THE FATHER. She mentions the “Waymaker” as having a plan to stretch out his hands on the cross, complete all the work and come after you like a Mother who will shower you with kisses.
There is strange new talk coming into the church that we need to be on our guard, and looking out for. Now I’m not saying she is speaking in this way but it is a very fine line to walk here. There is this talk about exposing the church to a “feminine expression of God”. And this is what Mrs. Voskamp has done here, either in ignorance or on purpose. This new talk, wants to press on the point that God is neither male nor female and pose a sort of gender fluidity within the text. Meaning they take license with it to change the metaphors God uses for Himself, as Father and change it to “Mother” in hopes to bring in a more egalitarian view of the Trinity, and His word. Ann Voskamp has, right here, changed the gender description of the Father in the parable to being quote- “like a Mother” running to her prodigals to lavish them with kisses. This is a problem. Though God is Spirit and has not a body like humans, Jesus does. Jesus took on flesh, human flesh, and more specifically, he took on MALE flesh. Jesus describes God as a Father, as one with all Authority, and THE Patriarch, the Head of all creation. It is no neglect on God’s part to use male pronouns when talking about himself in His revelation of himself. Each person of the Trinity is described with male pronouns when referring to Himself. There are occasions in Scripture where female pronouns are used to describe wisdom, or are used to give metaphors to expound upon a trait, action, or way God behaves, but it is not in reference to His person. If you start hearing teachers talk about God as mother, run. These are sparks of an egalitarian teaching called the “divine feminine” and are rooted in new age and pagan spiritism.
While Mrs. Voskamp has not out rightly changed the parable by using the words “like a mother ” to describe the way God comes to us, why did she even change it at all? Why not continue with the parable and describe God as Jesus gives us in his story, a Father who runs to us to restore the prodigal to the family. Why change the gender? This causes me to be suspicious.
She continues by saying that this is what repentance is: accepting that we are accepted and found.
Play clip 7
Is this true? Is this what the Scriptures mean by repentance or it’s how we find our way? Do we find the “Way Maker” by surrendering and accepting that we are accepted? Nope. And this is a HUGE problem. This is an entirely different Gospel. Ann Voskamp is saying that we are accepted by God when we surrender and accept being accepted by Him. First there is a problem that there is an underlying assumption that God merely accepts people and that their problem is not their sin and lack of faith in Christ but that they just don’t know that God accepts them. Over and over again, Scripture describes God as being angry at sinners, that his wrath will one day be poured out on all who transgress his Law (Rom.1:18; Rom.2:5). More specifically, God’s wrath will be poured out on those who do NOT believe in his Son (John 3:36). Those who do NOT accept Jesus as the Son of God, and His death and resurrection.
God, in His love and justice, cannot merely accept a sinner. Justice must be given. And that is where repentance comes in. Repentance is acknowledging that God, by his righteous law, has told us what righteousness looks like. By this holy Law, we are exposed to our sin (Rom.3:20; 7:7), and rightly understand that those who do not keep the law will be held accountable on the day of Judgment (Rom.2:1-29; Jam 2:10; Gal.3:10). Repentance is confessing our sins, acknowledging that we are deserving of God’s righteous wrath and in this knowledge, crying out for mercy. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.(1 John 1:9).
Jesus did not call people to accept that they are accepted. He came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32). Christ is the way to God. He is the way because, for those who repent of their sin and trust in Christ’s work, their sins are placed on Him. And He bore the wrath of God. For our sake he made [Christ] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.(2 Corin.5:21).
Our greatest act is NOT the act of surrender. Our greatest act is faith. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.(Heb.11:6). God rewards those who seek him. It doesn’t say that God rewards those who accept being accepted by him. No but those who long for HIM because He is the goal. Those who merely want to be accepted by him, without acknowledging their rebellion against Him, don’t actually want holiness and righteousness, don’t actually want God because holiness and righteousness are his nature.
And isn’t that where Mrs. Voskamp is going with this? Describing being wayward/prodigal/sinful, and yet telling her audience that God accepts you and wants to lavish you with love and kisses like a mother? You just merely need to accept His love?
She transitions to telling the audience that she has a compass that she keeps with her at her desk. On it is engraved “Be strong and courageous, for the Lord is with you”. And this word is for those listening. Even if things have not gone the way they’ve hoped, whether they have gone wayward or not, the Lord is with them. And the way-finder rests in the love of the way-maker.
She states that on the other side of the compass the word God is where North would be and tells the audience that God is our true North, that any other magnetic force placed near the compass will hinder it from pointing true north. In the same way, when we are distracted or putting hope in other things our compass will not point the way.
Play clip 8
Did you notice what she did there? She gave warning that if we are letting certain things pull us like comparison and competition then the compass of our soul will not help us find the way. She then turns around and says that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Well… except being pulled or guided by things such as comparison and competition, right? Or any other thing that would draw our heart away from true North. So which is it?
I tell ya, she is so confusing.. These words she is using. And so I don’t know if she misspoke or is twisting around words but she says there is quote “one way, and only one way that Jesus will not make” and then proceeds to talk about how nothing can separate us from God because Jesus is sticking up for us. There is “no way that Even that thing that went down that makes you want to “throw up” will not get in the way. My brain is doing flip flops and I’m not sure if that is her intention or not, but it’s so very confusing.
It is at this point that she quotes Rom. 8:32.
Play clip 9
That’s true. And that’s the end of the message. She restates, quote “The wayward turn inward, the way finders turn and accept being found, and the way maker turns everything around” end quote and then asks the audience to stand, hold the compass of their soul and let the way maker hold them as they pray, completely surrendered to him. The entire message, talking about being wayward, about compasses, true north and God as way-maker, and at the end we get about 45 seconds actually talking about the text. A lot of talk about God making a way, but never actually describing the way He made.
My brain had to do gymnastics to really grasp what she was trying to teach. And it’s because she talks in metaphors and rhymes. Using metaphors to describe God and Christ as True North and Way-makers, describing us as wayward/ prodigals/ way-finders, and souls as compasses, these may make someone sound so enlightened, yet what sense or understanding does it bring? What meaning and what knowledge have we gained from this message? Just accept being accepted by the Way-maker who has given us all things? Is that what Paul is trying to communicate to Christ’s disciples as well?
No, it’s not. Paul is writing to the Christian church, people who are sinners, who’ve confessed that they are sinners and are hungering for righteousness, groaning inwardly for a sinless world, sinless bodies, and a great desire to be with the Holy and righteous God. The quote un quote “way” that they are looking for is righteousness, because they know that that is the way to God, and God is their goal. Christ is the “way-maker” if you wish to use this type of terminology. He is the way the truth and the life (John 14:6). Because our sin was cast upon him, we, by faith, are clothed with His righteousness, making our way to God, through it, through Christ’s righteousness. And Paul is saying that because God foreknew us he predestined that we be conformed to the image of Christ. God did not spare his own Son to accomplish all we need to be made right with Him. The ultimate price was paid and therefore there is nothing else that can keep us from that which God has predestined for us- the being conformed to Christ image- for in the end we will be glorified and like our Master.
The Gospel is at the center of this verse. When we worry that something, anything has kept or will keep us from the love of God, the Gospel shouts that nothing will separate us. Oh, the understanding that comes from that one statement: that God did not spare his Son, the greatest act of love displayed on the part of both the Father and the Son. How then can we be anxious or fearful that anything will come between us and God?
So much she could have said, so much she could have shown us in just that small statement in just this one verse.
And that’s what I pray for ladies, that you see the great love that God has for his people, that he did not spare his Son, but gave Him up for us all, and God will also give us all things. He will accomplish all his holy will. I pray that in this knowledge, your love will abound more and more. For this knowledge, that God gave his Son for us, drives us to give back to Him. It is faith in this that we love God and love our neighbor, love our husbands, and children. For what can we not give, that God has not already given to us? By his Son, we have eternal life. I pray you rest in it.
I pray you are in His word.
Season 2 Episode 11 Transcript
INTRODUCTION
Hello Ladies, and welcome back to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped, I’m so happy that you choose to tune into this episode, and if you are new Welcome!
This season we are taking a deep look at the popular women’s conference the IF:Gathering. And this episode is part 6 of the teaching portion of the series. In part 1, we looked at the purpose of the Conference and compared it to the purpose of discipleship as found in Scripture.
In part 2 we looked at the actual women who speak at this conference and the ministries they have. I provided you with a litmus test by which to judge whether they put themselves under the authority of God’s word so that you could determine whether or not to follow them and allow them to disciple you in a way.
We are in the middle of the 3rd part of this series where we are looking at the teachings that were presented at the 2020 conference. It is at this conference that Jennie Allen had each speaker give a message on a portion from Romans chapter 8. With the expressed purpose of giving the audience “more of Jesus”.
So the sessions went like this: Jada Edwards gave a message on Rom. 8:1-4 proclaiming that God took care of our greatest need and now we can live without condemnation. Jennie Allen gave a message on verses 5-8 teaching us to battle the negative thoughts that come from the enemy. Beth Moore on verses 9-11 expressed how she wished that we would cherish that which is in us so that we would live supernatural lives. Jo Saxton on verses 14-17 explaining how were were adopted and no longer need to be slaves to our fears but should open our inheritance to accomplish our callings. Ruth Cho-Simons on verses 23-27 and warned us that if we are counting on our resources to fulfill our calling then we are not trusting in Christ, and today’s session is given by Bianca Juarez-Olthoff on Rom 8 verses 31-37. To listen to my critique of those sessions and discern how they handle Scripture you can check them out, though I highly suggest that you start from the beginning, if you are new to the podcast and have just tuned in.
Before we dive into Mrs. Olthoff’s message let’s go to the text she is to address and read it for ourselves to see what the Holy Spirit has to teach us through the apostle Paul, the author of this epistle.
Let’s get a little context to this message.
Paul, in the earlier chapters of the epistle to the Romans, talked about all of humanity’s problem, that all transgress God’s law and are subject to death and will have to stand before God in judgment. Paul, himself relays how he sees within him two things at war. His Spirit and his flesh. In his mind he desires to obey God’s word, yet in his members he is captive to the law of sin. At this point, right before chapter 8, Paul cries out to be set free from the body of death.
Right here, I believe, Paul is exemplifying what Jesus was pointing to in the first 4 beatitudes in His sermon on the mount. Like Paul, The poor in spirit will mourn over their sin, and like Paul they are submissive or meek to God’s word, and, like Paul they cry out in their hunger and thirst for righteousness (Matt. 5:1-6). After crying out in his wretchedness he praises and thanks God for Jesus Christ who sets people free from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom.8:3-4).
Paul proceeds to remind us that there are two types of people: those who set the mind on the flesh and those who set the mind on the Spirit and that those who set the mind on the flesh cannot please God. But , he says, we are not of the flesh if we have the Spirit of Christ in us. Those who do not have the Spirit do not belong to Him, but if Christ is in us, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in [us], he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to [our] mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in [us].(Rom8:9-11)
So because the Spirit of God dwells within us we are not debtors to the flesh, but are called to, by the power of the Spirit, be putting to death the deeds of the body, and if we do we will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom.8:14-17).
This suffering, the putting to death the deeds of the body, the wrestling with our own sin, the sin of others, and the curse of sin upon this world, is nothing compared to the glory to be revealed to us. That the creation was subjected to futility, and is groaning in pains. And we too, like the creation, in the Spirit, are groaning inwardly, eagerly waiting for adoptions as sons, the redemption of our bodies. This is what we hope for and it is in this hope that we wait for our redemption with patience. Now, let’s get into the text. Let’s begin at verse 26:
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Here’s Mrs. Olthoff’s portion:
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Verse 31 starts off with several questions. But it’s the first question that sets the stage for the rest of the passage: “What then should we say to these things?” Well, what are “these things”? If we come to a passage that starts with a question like this we HAVE to go back to see what Paul means by “these things”. “These things” are the context to answering all the other questions in the text.
So what are “these things”?
- That God sent his own Son to fulfill the law for us. Verses 3-4
- That God’s Spirit is given to us and dwells in us to put to death the deeds of the body, and by whom we cry “Abba, Father”, bearing witness that we are Sons of God verses 12-16
- That the Spirit helps us in our weakness interceding for us according to the will of God. verses 26-27
- That God works all things out for our good, because He predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son. He called us, He justified us, and he glorified us. Verse 28-30.
Because all of it is God’s work, and because God is for us, there is nothing that can come against us, nothing else that we are in need of that God has not nor will not graciously be given to us. There is no charge that one can bring against us, for it is God who justifies. There is none who can condemn, because Jesus Christ is interceding for us, who is at the right hand of the Father. There is NOTHING that can separate us from Christ and His love. No tribulation, no distress, no persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword. In all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ. Nothing, neither death nor life, nor angels nor demons, nor present things nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth. NOTHING in ALL creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. AMEN!
This passage is proclaiming our security in Christ. John MacArthur calls it “invincibility”. That Christians are invincible. The reformers call it the perseverance of the Saints. Not because of anything within or about ourselves but because of God. He predestined, He called, he justified, and he glorified. God does ALL his marvelous will, and all for our good and his great glory. We are invincible, we persevere, because God is at work in us and this world and he is Sovereign.
Is this what Bianca Juarez Olthoff will teach?
Well, let’s dive into her message shall we?
Mrs. Olthoff starts her message with gusto. She draws the audience’s attention by teaching them to “holler back”. But to “holler back” millennial syle. Instead of replying to a message, teaching or statement with “amen” she instructs them to say “facts”, instead of shouting “hallelujah” we’re to shout “big facts”, instead of “preach it” we’re to say “say it again”, and the new word she instructs us to use is “on guard”.
Now besides, perking the interest of the audience, she set up this word to set up her message. So let’s listen in: (Play clip 1)
Ok, she’s laid out what she’s going to focus on in this message. Her purpose in it is to encourage us to be conquerors. And I’m ok with that. The question is “How are we more than conquerors”? Why does Paul say this? Is Paul’s answer to these questions the same answer Bianca will give? Let’s find out.
She goes on to tell a story about how her husband has a literal sword under their bed in preparation for being “on-guard” in case of intrusion. She uses this story as an illustration to how we are told to be on guard for what the Lord wants to do in our life, because we have an enemy that wants to steal, kill and destroy. (Play clip 2)
Ok, just starting out, I gotta say that nowhere in Scripture are we instructed to be on guard for what the Lord wants to do in our life. Again, there’s just this popular view that God is very dependent on us to get His will done. We have to be cherishing what’s inside us so that we are led by the Spirit, like Beth Moore taught us. We need to not be slaves to fear and open up our inheritance, the gifts that God has given to fulfill our purpose. We need to not be counting our resources, and now we need to be on guard for what God wants to accomplish in our lives. What happens if we are not on guard, does God’s will get done?
The other issue is what does Jesus mean by “the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy”? Steal what? Kill what? Destroy what? Steal, kill, and destroy what God wants to do in our lives? Right off the bat that is completely contradictory to what is in this passage. We just read how those God foreknew he predestined, those he predestined he called, those he called he justified and those he justified he glorified. It is all his work, and he accomplishes it. He doesn’t need us to be on guard to get it done.
Now we do have Scripture that tells us to be on guard or watch out for false teachers/false shepherds. In fact they are described as thieves and robbers, these are who Jesus is actually talking about in John 10:10. But is this what Bianca means? Are we to conquer false teaching and teachers? I don’t think she meant this by using that passage.
She states that as conquerors we need to know what it is we are going up against and we need to fight. And Paul’s words are going to help us out with this, directs the audience to open to Rom 8 verses 31-37, then says this: (Play clip 3)
So regardless of what our opposition is, we are to know that a conqueror never wins if a conqueror never fights.
So if we don’t fight we will continue to wander through the wilderness? Well, is that a bad thing? Is it a sin to not fight? Will God’s will not get done if I remain in the wilderness? So I’m supposed to fight so I do not wander in the wilderness. And this doesn’t sound anything like what Paul has told us. Paul writes as if the fight is over, and we are conquerors because God gave His Son, who went to the cross for our sins and was raised from the dead and is now sitting at the right hand of the Father interceding for us.
But maybe she will go into that… She reads the passage and explains (Play clip 4)
Oh MY! AMEN! Amen and Amen! I love the passion she exudes as well. I wish she had included verse 29 &30 to solidify not only that God works all things for our good but also our security in His work, but man oh man that was good. Let’s keep listening. (Play clip 5)
Ok, started out a little iffy, but man did that turn around. I am pleasantly surprised at this point.
She continues by saying that the whole passage is fantastic but she wants to hone in on verse 37 specifically. And she wants to do that because it’s a super popular verse. One tossed around on Instagram, or Facebook, one we have hanging on our walls, and highlighted in our bible. And her fear is that it is overused, causing it to lose its power, especially if we overlook why Paul writes it. (Play clip 6)
sigh IT was going so well! No, I don’t think this passage is informing us of any sort of power we possess. It’s ALL about God's work, He is the one with the sovereign power. He’s the one who predestined us from eternity past, who called us to Himself. He’s the one who justified us by his blood (Rom.5:9) and resurrection (Rom 4:25). And He’s the one that sanctifies us (1Pet 1:2; Rom 15:16), and he will glorify us with new bodies (Rom 8:23).
She continues on talking about what is meant by power, what the Romans understood about power, that to them power was the ultimate expression of authority, and that soldiers and conquerors were heros: (Play clip 7)
Ok, maybe what she says here r is true. But something is off.
First, Let’s take some time and examine who the emphasis is on here. 1- she emphasizes the word power and closely connects it to authority by making the claim that, to the Romans, power was the ultimate expression of authority, after telling us that we possess power. 2- she emphasizes the words “more than conquerors” to exclaim that this is what we are because of the “insane love of God”.
Now I want us to think about something here, because there is something just not quite right in her statements here. If the Spirit of God resides in us, we have a Helper. He grants us strength in our weakness, He prays when we do not know what to pray for, He produces fruit in us, He convicts us of sins, and enlightens us to his word, through His word. While we are granted these wonderful blessings, we are nowhere told in Scripture that because the Spirit works in us and IS IN us, we possess a power. I’m a stickler. The thought that one possesses the Spirit of God can and does draw one to look at oneself. And even seems at times like one can wield this power whenever one chooses. The word possess connotes ownership, and means “have as belonging to one”. The Holy Spirit’s power does not belong to me, but I belong to God, and in His grace He gives me the Spirit who helps by empowering me to walk in his ways.
The Scriptures talk about God granting or giving power to His people (Is.40:29; Psalms 68:35), but describes people as weak, weakness belongs to us, we may think we possess power but really all power and authority has been given by God to Christ who gives to whom He chooses, when He chooses. In fact we are really described as the possession of another, a slave to another, either to sin, death and the Devil, or to God and righteousness (Rom 6:15-23).
Christians are described as Christ’s Bride, Christ’s sheep, God’s Children, God’s people.
So because Paul exclaims that we are more than conquerors that means we are quote “empowered to be unrivaled that there is no foe that can take us down” -end quote? That really props us up, doesn’t it?
Let’s look at the Romans passage again and look at who is emphasized in Paul’s teaching and compare it to Bianca’s teaching. I’ll start at verse 27:
And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom.8:27-39
Really…I just don’t like her teaching us that we possess power, and especially since Paul has, throughout the epistle of Romans, basically laid out how humanity is powerless to really do anything to save themselves. But it is by God’s grace and His power, especially the Gospel which is the power unto salvation, that we are saved; and as he is expressing in this passage, it is by God’s grace and power that we are more than conquerors. The emphasis in this passage is on God the one who has all power, therefore our salvation is secure. We are conquerors because He conquered.
I understand why people say this, and I see the encouragement it is meant to give, but oftentimes our flesh makes it about us, glorifying us by what God has given us, instead of being about Him and His power, sovereignty, and might.
But let’s keep going (Play clip 8)
Alright! Amen! I completely agree with her here. God IS the source of our strength. And I too fear that women don’t know Him But, I find this just a tad bit ironic. I too, fear women don’t actually know God. But why does she fear this? Didn’t Jennie Allen promise that we would leave loving Christ more, didn’t she say we would get more of Him? And we are 6 sessions in, only 2 more to go and she still fears that we don’t know this God? If we don’t know Christ we don’t know God, for Christ and the Father are One; Christ reveals the Father (John 14:10-11).
And another thing, Paul didn’t just claim that we are conquerors through Christ out of nowhere. Paul has been making an argument that our salvation; our calling, our justification, our sanctification, and our glorification are secure BECAUSE it is God who does the work, God who predestined, God who calls, God who justifies, God who sanctifies, God who glorifies. This is the power of God at work in our salvation. If any of these ladies took the time to exegete the passage we would get to know this God and his love and power. If she was so worried, why spend 13 of a 22 min message talking about nomenclature, her husband and his sword, being prepared to fight, Roman idea of power and authority, etc? Why not show us God from this passage? It’s very easy to do.
She proceeds to get very passionate and describes God: (Play clip 9)
He is a mighty, Sovereign, powerful God, and He is a loving Father. And he is gracious to all. But what is missing from this description? How about a just God, one who does not ignore sin (Ps145:20; 37:38)? How about a God who will one day pour wrath out on all who do not trust in the finished work of Christ (Ps.1:5; Matt. 13:41; 2Pet.2:9)?
Again, I have to think about the ladies hearing this that do not know the Gospel, and who have continually heard, throughout this conference, how much God loves them and wants them to conquer over condemnation from others, negative thoughts, lack of cherishing the Spirit that is in them, conquer over fear that keeps them from opening their inheritance, and feeling lost in their calling. All this, and nothing of our actual problem, our sin and rebellion against a Holy and Just God, and the solution: the life and death of THE conqueror, Jesus Christ who conquered over sin, death and the Devil. For those of us who believe in this Gospel it will be counted [as righteousness] to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Rom.4:22-25)
So while what she describes of God is true, there are very important things that are missing that need to be said to those who, like Jennie said are, quote un quote- “just checking Jesus out”.
And notice she says it’s about Him and it ain’t about you. But this message is given to us to let us know that we need to fight and we possess power?
She states that we often don’t feel like a conqueror because we think of ourselves. For Mrs. Othloff though, when she thinks about Christ she feels like dancing and playing Gospel music. She quotes lyrics from one of his song and states that when we think about Jesus we should be breaking out in praise and worship, and then proceeds to read a commentary on this passage: (Play clip 10)
Yep, that’s the point of this passage. All things work for our good and His glory. All victory is His, all praise is His, all power is his, all glory is his. And I’ll say this though she quotes Margret Thatcher, relaying how one doesn’t quit trying to encourage us not to, God’s good plan and purpose even succeeds when we fail and don’t get back up. Even our failures are included in the statement “all things”. Even things such as trials, tribulations, persecutions, and even death God uses for our good and His glory.
Mrs. Olthoff goes on to tell the story about how her husband and her started a church in California and most recently decided to expand it to another campus within a prison. In this new church plant she describes a man by the name of Jeremiah, and how he had become so on fire for God that he spread the news of, no… not the Gospel, but the church. She basically explains how the church plant expanded, because these inmates love the way they worshiped and taught the word, and so they spread the word about this church causing even their family members to tune in by youtube and quote- “say yes to Jesus”. This is her example of how God uses all things for His glory and our good.
And then she goes back to Paul who, she says, is always trying to get our eyes on God and reads Ephesians 3:20: (Play clip 11)
Yes! This is VERY true. Paul always wants to speak about the Gospel and point us to Christ. He is …not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Rom.1:16). He determined to know nothing among the churches but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corin.2:2). In the verses right before Eph. 3 verse 20 he states that he prays that …. Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (verse 17-19).
So if even Paul was determined to know nothing among them but Christ and Him crucified, if it is really all about Him, why, oh, why are we not hearing about Him? Why does she proclaim at points in this message that it is all about Him yet the rest is all about us and how we are to pick up our sword and shout on guard?
She goes on to talk about how she struggles with her teenagers, and even her weight. But though you may have problems, you won’t know how strong you are until strong is your only option. (Play clip 12)
This is what I call using Christ to boost your ego. You are strong, you are mighty, you are a conqueror. A message that uses Christ and His power so you can have faith in yourself and what He’s given you, how He’s empowered you. The motivation within the message and these types of teachings is to push you to go to Christ for what He gives to His people. Many people come to Christ for these blessings, yet do not want Christ Himself. They haven’t been told even of their need for Him, their sin and their lack of ability to be right with God. It’s wanting what a Father gives, food, shelter, protection, power, but not realizing one’s sins against the Father who has graciously provided. Yet, there’s a constant rebellion against Him. It is like the prodigal son, “give me the inheritance so I can go do my thing”. And what the audience really needs, is for these women to expose how the listeners are doing this, call them to repentance, so they see the muck and pig pens they have chosen to live in, their sinful nature and flesh that they walk in, and show them and urge them to meditate on The Father, to go to him through Christ.
And that’s the end of her message. I would say that was the best message given so far, and most we heard about Christ than all the others combined. There were several things I would agree with, it is just that she veres off track with the emphasis on us fighting and conquering in this life. While Paul’s emphasis is a bit different.
Paul, in Romans 8:31-37, not only tells us that we are conquerors (Mrs. Olthoff’s point) but also HOW we are, expounding on God’s sovereignty in our salvation and our lives.This passage is about the perseverance of the saints, it is deep and rich in drawing out the security we have in Christ, because of Christ. It describes WHY our salvation is secure. WHY our calling, justification, and glorification are invincible- because it is God at work. While Mrs. Olthoff rightly points out that we are conquerors through Christ, her emphasis throughout her message has been on us and herself. She wants to encourage us as fighters who will accomplish God’s calling. But Paul wants to encourage us as conquerors because Christ has accomplished the salvation of His people. She rightly worries that there might be ladies that don’t know God, but instead of taking time to really look at this passage and draw out from it, God, his Sovereignty, Christ and His work, and the involvement of the Holy Spirit in transforming us, we are encouraged to just believe that we are conquerors through Christ. And while she really gets emotionally charged about Christ, do you feel she has explained this passage to you? Or did she draw your attention to some power you possess inside you?
What do you think, did Bianca Juarez Olthoff handle the text correctly? Let me know at thoroughlyequipped316@gmail.com. I’d be interested to know what you think.
So until next time, where we will take a look at a message by Ann Voskamp on Romans 8:32, I pray that you go back to the passage in Romans and meditate on God’s great Sovereignty over your life and salvation. That he, in eternity past, predestined those who he calls, and calls those he justifies and justifies those he glorifies.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Eph. 1:3-14
I pray you understand that because it is his work, then all things that we think would hinder us from Christ’s love and being one day, glorified with Him, these things have no power... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. I pray that the more you realize this the more your love and faith in Him grows, driving you to want to know more and more about Him, not just what He can give you, not just the blessing of being a child of God, but Him, Christ, our savior. And in that love for Him you call Him Lord, and walk in His ways and obey His commands.
I pray you are in His word.
MelbaToast
Season 2 Episode 10 Transcript
IF:Gathering 2020 Ruth Cho-Simons
Hello Ladies and welcome back to another episode of thoroughly equipped so happy you could join me! If you are new, welcome! We are continuing with our critique of the very popular Women's conference the IF:Gathering. The speakers that teach at this conference are some of the most popular female speakers within Evangelical Christianity today.
This season we are taking a very in depth look at the conference, and I have planned in this season, to address it in parts. So in the beginning of this series we looked at the heart or purpose of the Conference. In part 2 we looked at the Speakers who are brought in to teach at the conference. We looked at their ministries and asked whether they willingly submitted to the clear teachings in God’s word of the role of women within the Church, who they associated with, and whether they had discernment in regards to false teaching and false teachers. In this part of the series, which is a much longer part, we are looking at the way these women handle Scripture. Whether they rightly handle God’s word, addressing the verses in context, drawing out from Scripture the teachings that the author wishes to teach. We are tackling the 2020 conference because in that conference, Jennie Allen set it up for each of the speakers to give a message on a specific section of Romans chapter 8, from which Jennie promises us Jesus Christ; that we would come to know Him better through the teachings given by the speakers in this conference. We are gonna look at session 5 today given by Ruth Cho-Simons.
Now I thought that this would only be a 3 part series, looking at the purpose, Speakers, and the way they handle Scripture. But there’s another issue that we have to address that I’m going to add to the series making it 4 parts at this point. And this 4th part is going to address the problematic analytical tools that they incorporate and promote in the conference and the false gospels that are given at this event. This is very heavy on my heart. For how many women think they are saved because they have been told that God pursued them and has a great plan for their life. A plan to use them to change the world by bringing about social justice, racial reconciliation, and relief to the poor and oppressed. These are very slippery dangerous teachings that can cause one to shipwreck their faith and lead one astray from the freedom found in Christ. This will be addressed in the upcoming 4th part of the series.
But let’s dive into today’s critique.
Now I want to remind you, especially if you have been following along, I want to remind you of the declaration and promise Jennie Allen gave in the 2020 Conference introduction. We are half way through the conference and should assess whether we have even begun to receive that promise. Here was that clip: (Play Clip 1)
So far Jesus has been conspicuously missing from the messages these teachers have been presenting. There has been a lot of talk about us and what we need to realize: such things as our greatest need has been met, how we fight the enemy who keeps us from setting our mind on the Spirit, that we should have the Spirit of Christ in us to live supernatural lives, and that we need to unwrap our inheritance as adopted children of God so we can accomplish our calling. This is a far cry from focusing, quote, “completely and entirely on the person of Jesus”. These messages have been focused on us, not HIM.
Messages and teachings like these, cater to our pride and sinful nature- drawing us to God for what He can give us, how these messages make us feel empowered, wanting the blessings of God but not knowing WHO God is, WHO Jesus is, or wanting what the Spirit really offers. Because none of this addresses our problem, that we LOVE ourselves and not God, that we LOVE our sin, and do not desire to put it to death, and that we suppress truth instead of embracing it because we love the darkness and not the light which exposes our sins. We prefer to hear how God loves us just as we are, desires to have a relationship with us, and wants to use us to change the world (cause that is how important we are).
Remember, Jennie points out that there are women in the audience who are: quote “just checking Jesus out”. These women who are slaves to their sin, and lovers of themselves, are given a Jesus who loves them to, who just wants a relationship with them, and who wants to empower them to accomplish their dreams, a savior who wants them to cherish His spirit that lives inside them, who wants to make their life supernatural.
So far this is what we have been presented with. Are the next 4 sessions going to be any different?
Session #5 is a message given by Ruth Cho-Simons who is to elaborate on Romans 8:24-28.
Now the last message was delivered by Jo Saxton on Romans 8:14-17, and you’ll notice that several verses are left out. And again, I’ll mention that this is a conference and not a church, so I’m not looking for in-depth study or teaching verse-by-verse. But these verses are important to the context of the passages. And it is the context that helps us understand the verses, helps us understand what Paul means in those sentences. So let’s read these verses in their context and look at what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us through it.
Remember what we’ve learned already? Paul has explained very clearly that every man who was born of Adam, is born with a sinful nature, a slave to his flesh. And because of this no man can please God, meaning that we are all unrighteous and will one day stand before God guilty of transgressing His law. But …
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom.8:1-4
And because we are dead to sin and alive to Christ we are no longer debtors to the flesh, but instead, by the power of the Spirit we are to put to death the deeds of the flesh. We put them to death, not because we fear the wrath of God like before, but now, because of Christ we are reconciled to God who now is our heavenly Father. And he has sent his Spirit to testify to our spirit that He is our Father, making us heirs with Christ provided that like Him we suffer. With this in mind let’s go to the text and start from verse 14.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Rom.8:14-17
Now before we continue reading, I want to bring to your attention that these next couple of verses are completely kept out of the conference sessions just like verses 12 & 13 were left out of Jo Saxton’s message. Again this is a conference and not a church by which the pastor or teacher could go verse by verse to teach and train up the listeners. But these verses are crucial to the context of what the Holy Spirit is teaching through Paul. So let’s look at them:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Rom. 8:18-23
So God is a good and loving Father who has provided everything we need to reconcile us to him, gives us all we need to accomplish his will, AND will one day deliver us from the corruption that is in this world and in our bodies provided we suffer with Christ. By this Paul means the suffering that we all deal with since we live in perishable, sinful bodies and a corrupted, evil world. Christ, truly God and truly man, subjected Himself to the sufferings of this sinful world, receiving the wrath of man (Acts 2:22-23; 5:30) and the wrath of God (Isa. 53:4-6; Rom.5:8-9) and though innocent, submitted to these sufferings brought on by sin for our salvation. We, though not innocent like Jesus, live in a sinful world and will be subjected to suffering in this sinful world. Suffering that comes about from our own sin, suffering that comes about from others sin, and suffering from an earth that has been cursed by sin. But these sufferings are nothing compared to what God has in store for us, and we, along with creation, LONG to be set free from the suffering and corruption of sin.
Ok, now With that context, let’s read the passage Ruth is supposed to teach on:
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom. 8:24-28
So Paul is telling us that our hope is in the promise of the new heavens, new earth and new imperishable bodies that God will one day give us.
This is our great hope, THIS is God’s great promise, and THIS is what we wait for with all patience. And just like creation groans, the Spirit within us groans and waits eagerly for this redemption, for a sinless body. In this hope we were saved. We were saved so God might glorify Himself through the redemption of sinful people who will one day be glorified with Christ. We will one day put on the imperishable. We will one day be set free from sin, death and the devil.
In the same way that the Spirit groans within us, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness. See in these fleshly bodies we do not know what to pray for, but the Spirit does and so He intercedes for us. Christ, knowing the mind of God, knows the groanings of the Spirit that intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. The Spirit within us even prays for the will of God. For God causes all things to work for the good of those who love Him and are called according to his purpose.
These are just wonderful, wonderful truths, really. They are basically proclaiming how God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have accomplished and are accomplishing all God’s will in and through us. ALL of it is His work. All of it done for His glory. Even in our weakness, ladies, when we don’t know how to pray or what to pray, the Spirit prays for us. And this is why Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 has no qualms about boasting in his weaknesses. Even being content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. Because he rightly understands that God works all these things out for Paul’s good and God’s glory. For when Paul is weak, then he is strong. Why? Because Christ’s grace is sufficient for him, Christ’s power is made perfect in Paul’s weakness. Paul wants Christ to receive all the glory.
This is a very different mindset than what gets taught in American Christianity today. It’s a very different mindset than what we are given even in the IF:Gathering. Will Ruth Cho-Simons talk about this hope we have, the Spirit’s intercession, and the work of God for our good in all things? Let’s find out.
Mrs. Cho-Simons starts her message talking about how she encourages her family to open up their heart to talk about things, and that is done at their house during meal prep. She wants the audience to know that discipleship happens during the day to day activities. With that in mind she offers an invitation to come into her studio while she works on a painting. On the stage is a table with paint brushes, paint sets and paint canvases. And it’s in this setting that she invites us to sit and have a “chat”.
As she sets up her station and begins to paint, she tells the audience that she quote-unquote “sees” them. That she understands that many of them are dealing with hard times in their lives. This is the starting point of her message: (Play clip 2)
Ok, so she is worried about how we might feel about our calling. This is right at the beginning of her message but I’m wondering how that ties into the passage of Romans 8:24-27. What might a calling have to do with the hope that we have in the promises given by God to deliver us from sin and corruption, and the promise to help us in our weakness and work all things out for our good? But let’s see where she goes with this…(Play clip 3)
Ok, so she’s talking about feeling lost at times when we feel like we are not being who God called us to be or not doing what we think God called us to do. Now, for a Christian who understands their sin nature and wrestles with their flesh, there is definitely a feeling of frustration, an eager desire to be set free of it. Knowing that God has called us to be like Christ, but not feeling like we are making much progress in that area. And that is kind of what Paul is talking about here. The Spirit within us grains to be set free from the incorruptible, the perishable. But is that what Ruth is talking about here? Here’s a note I want to bring to your attention before we proceed with her message. This portion of Romans is dealing with eternal and spiritual things. A longing for something and a hope for something that is NOT temporal, something that is NOT of this world.
Purpose driven- theology makes God’s promises very temporal and of this world. It’s about God’s work through you and I to bring change to this world. Heaven, Hell, and eternity are not addressed in their messages. But Paul’s teachings here are centered on eternity, our great hope, the end result of our salvation, our glorification.
Now Mrs. Cho-Simons sympathizes with us and then tells to turn to Roman 8 and proceeds to read the text. I’m going to let her read and get right to her point: (Play clip 4)
Ok, So I want to show you something that Speakers or Teachers commonly do that twists Scripture. Ruth has just done that here.
She starts her message setting us up with a topic. The topic or problem she wants to address. In this message it’s the topic of feeling lost when we think we are not accomplishing God’s calling for our life. And usually, Speakers bring up the topic first and want to teach that the passage or verse that they bring up will help us in some way solve or address that problem. This tends to place into a text a teaching that is not found in the text when we read it in context. And that is exactly what is going on here. Ruth wants to talk about hope. Paul too wants to talk about hope. But what that hope is placed in, the object of the hope in the text and the object of hope in Ruth’s message are two entirely different things. Paul wants to remind us of our hope in an incorruptible world, free of sin, death, and the devil. And Ruth wants to remind you of hope in God’s calling for our lives and the resources He will provide to accomplish it. Paul wants to point you to eternity, Ruth points you to this world. Paul wants you to hope in the promises that God will make things right. Ruth wants you to hope in what God gives you to make things right.
And in this twist she wants to warn us to not to count up our resources because if we are doing that we are not counting on Christ.
Now if she was talking about counting up resources that we think would earn us salvation, Like Paul addresses in the earlier chapters of Romans, she would have a point. But she is talking about accomplishing our calling. To not count up our resources- what we have been given, what our current situation looks like, and judge by these what God’s calling might be. And did you notice that the situations she states are what COULD be what God has for us at a time of feeling lost? Listen to this part of the clip again. (Play clip 5)
I don’t think she realizes it but she has just questioned God’s word and its authority in our lives as women. God is not a God of confusion. God has laid out for us very clearly in Scripture what He wants his women to do. This type of talk is the fruit of not believing that Scripture is sufficient to teach, rebuke, correct, and train us in righteousness SO THAT we may be THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16-17). IT teaches us what God calls us to do. If you ever feel lost in regards to what you think God is calling you to do GO TO SCRIPTURE. Let’s look at just a few passages that talk about what God wants of us.
First God calls us to be saved from the wrath to come and trust in Christ. This is the calling of the God through the Gospel: “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.(Acts. 2:38)
Then, because we are forgiven, we are called to… present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom.12:1-2)
1Thess.4:1-12 states:
Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
9 Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, 10 for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, 11 and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.
There are more narrow instructions given to women in Scripture that call us to submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands (Eph.5:22-23). And that we are to train and/or be trained up to ..to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (Titus 2:4-5).
The last Scripture passage I want to look at in regards to God’s will for us is the following passages from Romans itself, that will NOT even be mentioned in this conference and that are the verses that come directly after the passage that Ruth is to teach on- verses 29 &30. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
This is the consummation of God’s plan for our lives. That Because God foreknew us, he predestined that we be conformed to the image of his Son. That we be Christ’s disciples, having been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and learn and do all that He has commanded us. On this side of eternity we are given the fruit of our justification, which is our sanctification, and when Jesus returns we receive the outcome of our salvation, eternal life (Rom.6:22). Notice the lack of talk regarding some specific calling, one that needs supernatural power to be accomplished. No instead, Scripture speaks instead of the great supernatural power that we are given to merely love God and love neighbor, because of our faith in Jesus Christ. This supernatural power looks weak and simple to the world. It looks like one serving and loving another by making sure the laundry gets done, changing a dirty diaper, disciplining our children, loving, serving and teaching them. It looks like submitting to our husbands instructions when we think they’ve got it wrong. It looks like making a meal of oodles of noodles and praising God that he has answered prayer to give you your daily bread. It is invisible to the human eye when one does ALL things for the glory of God, Obeying the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd commandment. When and if this is done in our frail sinful flesh, it is done in the will of God, because of Christ, and with the awesome and mighty power of the Holy Spirit. It is not that quote “it COULD be what God wants” end quote. This is what he predestined for you, the beginnings of being conformed to the image of his Son, that you should walk in, and His word, Scripture, equips you for that very thing.
And she urges us to look at our trail of thoughts, look at fears and lies, look at our social feeds to identify what we might be putting our hope in, instead of Christ. (Play clip 6)
I’m all for focusing on Christ. Honestly, that’s why I do this podcast. I agree that if we know nothing but Christ and Him crucified we would have the BEST knowledge. In fact feel free to go back and listen to the episode I did reading George Whitefield’s commentary on 1 Corin.2:2. His commentary beautifully lays out why we should Know nothing else.
But let’s look at what she says about Hope:
So Hope is: a confident perseverance toward the future based on a certainty of fulfillment. In that fulfillment we have hope because we have Jesus. Yes, this is true. Our certainty of fulfillment is because of Jesus, but in this text, our hope is not grounded in whatever we want it to be. It’s actually in something specific in this chapter- the promise of making all things right upon His return. That is why Paul says that we, on this side of eternity, will suffer with Christ, but that this suffering is not worth comparing with the glory to be revealed in us when we enter eternity. Hope in this context is on something very specific, to encourage us in our times of suffering. In this context our hope or confident perseverance towards the future- in this case, toward a new uncorrupted heavens, earth and imperishable body- is based on God whose promised it (Isa. 65:17-19; 2Pet. 3:13; Rev.21:1), Christ who is the firstborn being the first to be raised from the dead (Col.1:18), and the Holy Spirit who raised Him (Rom.8:11). Not in whether we are accomplishing our purpose or fulfilling or calling.
She goes on to talk about how we can become impatient with results. Not seeing the results of our labor. But we are to wait with patience when we hope in the unseen because patience is the perspective of one who knows that she is the created, not the creator. (Play clip 7)
And that patience is a posture of submission, waiting for God’s way not ours. And this is true in general. But in regards to this passage we are waiting patiently FOR something specific. NOT for results of our labor, or the results of accomplishing our calling, but we are waiting patiently for that which God has promised, in the context of Romans- all things being made new and incorruptible, without sin. And we greatly long for this and wait with patience, because we suffer in this evil world. That is what Paul is explaining here.
Mrs. Cho-Simons then relays how our weakness can put us in the perfect posture to know the Spirit’s help. (Play clip 8)
I agree that the Spirit helps us when we are weak in all sorts of ways, even in the ways she describes here. But, again, Paul is more specific. Weakness can be centered on many things. I can be weak physically and barely lift a 10 pound bag of rice. Or I can be weak in speaking, as Paul describes the way he spoke before the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 2:3-5. So depending on the context we need to see what Paul means by weakness. In what way are we weak here?
BibleRef.com’s commentary on this passage states:
Paul is acknowledging here that, even as Christians, we remain weak in and of ourselves. Physically, we remain creatures in fragile bodies with sometimes baffling emotions. Spiritually, we can become weak in our faith and/or in our resistance to sinful desires. As Paul will begin to make clear, however, God's Spirit with us makes all the difference. He continually helps us in and even through our weakness. He steps in. He helps with the burden.
More specifically, Paul writes that we are so weak that at times we do not know what to pray for! We have been given access, in prayer, to our Father God. We feel the need, the longing, for Him, but what do we ask for? The Spirit steps in and carries those unsaid "groanings"—those thoughts and feelings we simply cannot express in human words—to God.
https://www.bibleref.com/Romans/8/Romans-8-26.html
The weakness in this passage is in connection to our flesh, our bodies affected and directed by sin. Now, it is correct to say that we are weak in being able to obey God perfectly. That is exactly what Paul has been talking about in all 8 chapters of Romans. But is that what Ruth is describing? Weakness in doing the will of God as laid out for us in Scripture or weakness in accomplishing some instruction that we receive subjectively, something we FEEL God has called us to do?
She then goes into how Paul mentioned that the Spirit prays for us in our weakness, relaying how at times we may be just too sad to speak or, like her, have too much to say that one rambles on during prayer and she reminds us of this: (Play clip 9)
I am very pleased that she would state this. Yes, and amen. She proclaims that they are sweet words. (Play clip 10)
Yes, For those who are in Christ Jesus, and know that the Father works all things out for His glory and our good, they are very very sweet words. And Christ really is our good. God is our prize. ANd Yes, we shouldn’t be distracted by other things. Life is about being with God.
But my heart is saddened. And for this reason. Those who are in the audience, or listening to this conference online, those who are just “checking Jesus out” or have been given a false Gospel, they will not know the outcome of the ultimate good that God does in our lives- that outcome being eternal life. But instead, because their faith is placed in things other than Christ and His sacrifice for their sins, they are left in their sins and the wrath of God remains on them (John 3:36).
Now she states that by this conference and going through Romans 8, they are reminding us of the redemption we have in Jesus. But there has been no talk on what that redemption entails.
These women who are in the 5th session, still have not heard the Good news. Instead we have heard that God has taken care of our greatest need, but no talk of HOW, we are just informed that God pursued us. We’ve heard that to set our minds on the Spirit we have to fight the devil who comes at us with negative thoughts. We’ve heard that we need to cherish the Spirit that lives within us so we would live supernatural lives. We’ve heard that we have been adopted as sons of God and as children we should not be slaves to our fears and open the gifts God has given so we can walk into our inheritance. And now we are being told that we are not to count on ourselves basically, but trust in Christ and the Holy Spirit to help us accomplish our calling even when we feel lost on the way.
So what might be the outcome of this type of teaching on one who hasn’t heard and trusted in the Gospel? Perhaps, a thought like this? God really must love me! He pursues me and wants my good. I want my good too. God must want me to accomplish such and such. I don’t need to feel condemned, I just need to fight off the negative thoughts, understand that the spirit of God dwells within me, that God has given me an inheritance- gifts that help me accomplish my purpose and help me live a supernatural life. And he’s promised to empower me to accomplish that if I don't count my resources but trust in CHrist? If I just trust in Christ he will make my dreams successful? Well, I want to accomplish my purpose, I want to be successful, and live a happy fulfilled life, so I’ll trust that Jesus will help me do that. The emphasis in all the messages so far have had a focus on what God WILL do for you in THIS life, with mentions and a nod or two to what Christ HAS done. But what should be the focus? What Christ HAS DONE so that we may receive WHAT GOD WILL DO in the future. Our faith is placed on the work done by Christ, the Son of God who died and rose again to pay the penalty for our sins and gives eternal life to all who trust in him and him alone for it. Yet so many who receive these types of messages believe they are right with God because they have faith in God and will do what they can to accomplish His will.
Are we hearing about that Prize, Jesus Christ?
In between point Mrs. Cho-Simons has pointed out that she has mistakenly forgotten a paper towel to dry her paintbrush on, or that she has over mixed her paint with paint thinner making the paint hard to dry, and it is now at this point that she presents the painting exclaiming that it didn’t work out like she planned. Her point being that our lives can look like that too, yet God can use them to do His work. I would agree with that. Scripture continually shows us how God uses sinful men to do His work, and that God even uses persecutions, tribulations, suffering and death to accomplish His good. While her situation and experience on this stage in lack of producing an approved painting is cute, it’s not needed. She could have gone into God’s word to make that claim.
AS, quote “one in progress person to another” she appeals to us to run to the truth. (Play clip 11)
But what is the truth that Paul is talking about in Romans? Is it that God loves us so, pursues us and wants to help us accomplish our purpose? Or is it that we are sinners who are destined for Hell. Yet God so loves us that He sent his Son to obey the law perfectly for us and take our punishment upon Himself, die and rise again so that we may be reconciled to God? Which of these should we run to?
Let’s listen to the last part of her message:(Play clip 12)
Yes, Paul did spend 7 chapters explaining the truth and HOW we can be saved from the wrath to come. So why hasn’t any one of these speakers even touched upon the HOW? If this truth is so vital, why has it not been clearly taught? Especially to those in the audience who are “just checking Jesus out”?
But instead of giving us that truth that we must run to in times of feeling lost, she wants to encourage us to be faithful right where we are. I get that sentiment. But “Many a man claim to have unfailing love, but a faithful man who can find?” Prov.20:6. Over and over again, Scripture points to God as being the faithful one (Deut.7:9; Lam. 3:22-23; Psalm 145:17;1 Corin. 10:13;1Thes. 5:24; 2Thess. 3:3; among many other verses). We are called to hold on to “the confession of our hope (That Jesus is our High Priest who has presented the ultimate sacrifice that cleansed us from our sins once and for all) without wavering, for he (that is God) who promised is faithful.” Heb. 10:23. I want to be faithful in all that I do and with all that God has given me, but ultimately, I fail. Yet, I hold on to the confession, and as I do, I trust in God to deliver his promises because HE IS FAITHFUL.
There has only been one faithful Man, the God/Man Jesus Christ. We are faithful in Him and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to produce the fruit of faithfulness. But only if we have the Spirit, and we only know we have the Spirit if we are trusting/believing in Christ and His work.
So in conclusion, did Ruth handle the text correctly? Is the hope that Paul wants us to have in regards to our calling and purpose, or in regards to the promised New Heavens, Earth and our glorified bodies? Is the weakness that Ruth talks about in regards to our ability to carry out our callings? Or in regards to accomplishing the will of God which is to be conformed to the image of His Son? Does this passage tell us to not count our resources but trust in Christ to work through us and be faithful right where we are? Or does it tell us to trust God because he is faithful. That He who foreknew us, predestined us. And those he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those he justified he also glorified (rom.8:30).
And ladies, that is what I pray you are doing, trusting in His work, what He HAS DONE and WILL DO for you. I pray that you have heard, through these last couple of episodes and our exposition so far through this chapter of Romans 8, that good news, that truth, the Gospel, over and over again and grasp the hope that we have of one day seeing our Savior face to face, and being set free from the corruption that is in this world and in our bodies, for God will do it because God is faithful.
I pray.. You are in His word.
MelbaToast
Episode Transcript
Introduction:
Hello Ladies and welcome back to another episode, so glad you could join me today. If you are new, welcome!
We are in the middle of critiquing the very popular women's conference, the IF:Gathering. And if you have just tuned in to this podcast I highly suggest you go to the first episode of this series which is episode 3 of this season. In the previous episodes, I present to you my purpose in critiquing the conference, how I’m going about doing that, and it will help put this episode in context for you as we are in the middle of looking at the 2020 conference as the speakers were set to address Romans 8 and present us with Christ through them. At least that was what was promised by Jennie Allen in the opening session of the conference. So far we are 3 sessions in and the word Christ and the name Jesus has been mentioned, but his person and work is at this point lacking in the messages. If we were really being taught what Paul had communicated in the epistle it would be REALLY hard to NOT learn about Jesus and what He did for His people because our problem and God’s work is laid bare for us to know in this letter. Now we’ve heard that God satisfied our greatest need but no talk of how he did. We’ve heard that we should fight the enemy that presents us with negative thoughts, and that we should learn to value that which is in us, the Spirit of Christ, so that we would be empowered to live supernatural lives and accomplish God’s calling for us. All of this we are supposed to get from Romans 8:1-11.
Today I’m going to present to you a message given by Jo Saxton on Rom. 8:14-17. And like the other messages we are going to first look at this text in context and practice hermeneutics to determine what the author’s intent was in writing the passage. We are going to read and determine what it is that the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us through this epistle which Paul wrote and compare it to what Jo Saxton delivers.
So let’s dive in shall we?
Now if you remember for the last couple of episodes, we know that Paul was presenting the truth that ALL men are under the wrath of God because mankind suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Rom.1:18-25). Both Jew and Gentile are unrighteous and are under sin, for by the works of the law no human being is justified in the sight of God (Rom. 3:9-20). But now the righteousness of God, has been made manifest- the righteousness that comes by grace through faith in Christ Jesus who was put forward as the propitiation for our sins so He would be just and justifier of the one who has faith in Him (Rom 3:21-27). Paul goes on to talk about the promise made to Abraham and how by faith in it he was justified, and we are Abraham’s children when we too, have faith in God and the sacrifice of his Son on the cross for our sins. That we are counted righteous when we believe in him who raised up from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification (Rom. 4:13-25). Just as sin entered the world by one man’s (Adam’s) trespass bringing condemnation for all men, it is through the One Man (Jesus Christ) that the free gift of grace abounds for many bringing them justification, righteousness, and life (Rom. 5:12-21). And it is because of this great grace that we do not go on sinning, for if we have been united with Christ our old self was crucified with Him, setting us free from sin, dead to it and alive to Christ, since we are not under law but grace (Rom. 6:1-12). Because we are under grace, we are to present ourselves as slaves…. having become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which [we]were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness… For we have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and it’s end, eternal life. The wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:15-23). For those who know the law are bound to the law, but we have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that we may belong to Him, in order to bear fruit for God. We are released from the law to serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. But that doesn’t mean the law is sin. No, Paul says the law was the way he came to know what sin is and to make manifest of how he sins, producing death in him, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and though the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. The law is spiritual but he is of the flesh, sold under sin. Yet he sees in himself a conflict, the conflict between that of his desire to obey the commandments; his flesh which prevents his members from carrying it out. For he does not do the good he wants but the evil he does not want is what he keeps doing, making him captive to the law of sin in his members. He then cries out that he is wretched and needs to be delivered from the body of death (Rom 7).
Here is where Paul proclaims that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because Christ came in the flesh, condemning sin in His flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Those who walk in the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh but those who walk in the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Now this is where we are in the epistle. I’m going to read from Romans 8:9-17
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
So let’s look at what this passage is talking about. The Holy Spirit through Paul, after informing the reader that those who are in the flesh cannot please God, tells us that we are not of the flesh if the Spirit of God dwells in us. He wants us to know that though our body is dead because of our sin, the Spirit of Life residing in us is righteousness. That same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us and gives life to our mortal bodies. Because of this we are not to let our flesh rule over us, we owe it nothing, and instead we desire and make great pains to put it to death so we might live. If we are led by the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh then we can know we are sons of God. We did not receive the spirit of slavery- of which he is talking about being under the control of the flesh- slavery to our desires and sins by which we know in truth that we will one day be held accountable for every thought word and deed, every transgression of God’s law. Knowing that God’s wrath will one day pour out on all who are without a perfect righteousness leads one into fear. This is true, good and right, to have in a certain amount or another understood this and been brought to this fear, this fear leads to repentance. But we are not slaves to this knowledge because we have been given the Spirit that instead of fear we go to God as “Abba, Father” bearing witness that we are children of God, and as children heirs with Christ not under God’s wrath but under His care and love. In Christ we will receive what God promises, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Alright, and before we dive into Mrs. Saxton’s message I want to point out that between Beth Moore’s message and Jo Saxton’s message there is a portion of Scripture that is left out and not even included in the re-reading given by each speaker. So, I mentioned in a previous episode that in their conference introduction they read chapter 8 in its entirety. But with each message, each speaker has also, so far, gone back and read the section of Rom. chapter 8 that they were given to teach on. This is where a couple of passages are completely left out. Rom 8: verses 12 and 13 are 2 of them. Notice what these verses say: So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
This is a conference and not a church, and so I understand that any in depth verse by verse teaching is too much to ask. But what I do think is necessary and what I think should be happening in a conference that is, at this time promising to give us Christ from Romans 8, is to at least speak about what is being taught in Romans 8 and that involves presenting messages that teach the concepts that come from the text. For either Beth Moore’s message or Jo Saxton’s message, verses 12 & 13 should be read and should be in their message in some form or other because it too is part of Romans 8, yet it is completely cast aside and ignored.
With that said let’s see how Jo Saxton handles the text she’s been given to speak on.
Jo Saxton starts out with presenting the audience with this thought “If the Spirit of God is real, living in us, changing us, and brings us no condemnation then it has implications for everyday life” and that Roms 8 verses 14-17 explain that and expound upon what Jesus has done for us.
She reads the text and gives a brief explanation into some history behind the Roman empire at the time that this was written. And this is good, to get to know the history at the time can help sharpen our understanding of what is being said in the text.
Let’s listen in to what she says about the history because she will use it to lay a foundation for her message. (Play clip 1)
So with this back ground in mind, that many of the subjects were “defined by slavery” and explaining the Roman institution of adoption as one of taking on a slave to be adopted and be trained to take on the family business so-to-speak, she describes the ceremony that took place in the adoption of these slaves. That somewhere in the ceremony there was a wiping out of their past. All was forgotten and forgiven, no matter what their past was, no matter the debts. Their life was quote “completely and utterly transformed” un-quote. It is with this background she then says that we are to look at the text. She reads the first part of verse 15 and she will read from the New Living Translation. (Play clip 2)
I want to bring to your attention the fact that she is using this translation because it will be the crux of her message. Unless you have many translations in front of you you would not be able to recognize this very sneaky twist. The New Living Translation states what she read: So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. While most other translations render it in this way:
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear (The ESV).
For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear (The Berean Study Bible).
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear (The KJV).
In this passage, remember the context is in light of the Law and our inability to keep it. With this knowledge we are brought into fear of the wrath that is due us for the transgression of God’s law. This is what is meant by slavery: that the one who set their mind on the flesh is a slave to the flesh and cannot please God (verse 8) and therefore would rightly be in fear of God who will hold us all accountable (Rom.3:19). That is the spirit of slavery or bondage that LEADS TO fear. Not that we are slaves TO fear. Watch where she goes with this: (Play clip 3)
See the twist? It's a sneaky one. What is the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul saying we are slaves to in Romans? What is the slavery to? Are we not to be slaves to fear, owned or managed by our fear? Or are we not to go back to slavery to the flesh that leads to fear? What does Paul mean by a spirit of slavery that leads to fear?
Scripture interprets Scripture: Paul, in Chapter 6 describes slavery. That we are slaves either to obedience which leads to righteousness or slaves to sin, which leads to death. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.It is the spirit of slavery to sin that will cause us to live in fear. The pursuit of our own passions and flesh bring fear because we know that those who do these things will fall under the wrath of God. That’s the context of this passage and that is what this spirit is pointing to. This verse is not talking about fear guiding and ruling our life producing such character traits as perfectionism, comparison, worry, etc.
With this twist we can know then that the text is not really going to be handled correctly.Did you see where she went with this?. Before we continue, do you remember back in the Jada Edwards message critique where I mentioned that the speakers really emphasize a type of mental battle in their teachings? Making people’s main problem is their struggle with self esteem? Jada talks about God providing for our greatest need (without going into the work of Christ at all), and because of this we can go through our life without condemnation. Jennie explains that negative thoughts come from an enemy, and Beth Moore urges us to value what is in us so we live supernatural lives.
So Mrs. Saxton states that this text is telling us that our problem is fear not sin. And that this fear shows up as different characteristics that can define our lives. Let’s look at these. And really ask if they are characteristics of fear.
Perfectionism- Mrs Saxton states that perfectionism is a result of fearing that we are not good enough. Always thinking as if we could have done something better. But is perfectionism a result of fear or sin? At the core of perfectionism there can be a couple of things involved. One may desire to be perfect because they believe they can be, which means they don’t understand their sinful nature. Or perhaps they idolize themselves, relying on themselves to provide what is needed and wanted. Regardless, perfectionism in a Christian is due to a lack of understanding that no matter what you do you cannot please God, for the flesh cannot please God (Rom.8:8). but that which is done in faith that pleases him (Heb. 11:6). And therefore the perfectionist needs Christ and to rest and trust in His perfect work.
Comparison- is this a result of fear that we are not as good as others? Well, wouldn’t wanting to be like someone else, as good as them be a form of coveting- transgression of the 10th commandment? Isn’t coveting a result of not trusting that God knows best in they way he has made you, and what he has given you? And why might one compare themselves to another other than we, in some form or other, believe they are better than ourselves, or in pride are better than others? Why even compare ourselves to others? We are all sinners. Why not compare ourselves to Christ, grasp our depravity, call out to our heavenly Father to forgive us and praise him for giving us his Son. A right understanding of whom we are clothed with when we trust in the work of Christ casts all comparison aside for we realize that we are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal.3:28)
Unhealthy Competition- Is this a result of fear of not being first and what it says about you to lose? Again, cannot the desire to win be a result of the sin of coveting? Coveting the status of being a winner? When one worries over what losing a competition would say about you, isn’t their pride in that? That to lose would humble us and it would hurt our pride? And who is it that receives the glory when we win? Unhealthy competition is a result of sin not fear.
Control- Is this a result of fear? Or is it the result of a lack of faith and trust in God in his sovereignty? Is it a result of idolatry of the self and self reliance? These are sins.
She lists Worry-(again lack of trust in the Sovereignty AND goodness of God) and Anger- (usually a result of the lack of gratitude for all God has given, and/or a lack of modesty and humbleness, for who is to say we deserve anything, or any decent treatment? We usually lash out in anger because we feel someone has mistreated us/ hurt our feelings- we can feel anger for the mistreatment of others but that would be good but only if it is based in truth.
She begs us to ask this question: Where is fear defining our lives, and what does God want to say to us about it?
She then goes back into the passage and reads the rest of verse 15 and verse 16. but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God… She will then connect the Spirit of adoption to being set free from fear (not sin, mind you….fear). (Play clip 4)
So our problem was that we were under the slavery of fear, oppressed, labeled, and misidentified, not that we were slaves to sin, to our flesh, walking in the desires to gratify the flesh, all of which was leading us to death. Instead, we were victims to fear, and owned by what we say about ourselves and what others say about us. But now we have been adopted, no longer owned by these things. And again, she challenges us to ask if we are really free?
She then talks about how we may struggle with this idea of God being our father, that some of us have had bad experiences with our fathers and tend to equate that with our heavenly father. She gives her own story of the absence of her father in her life,and invites us to come to God as a different Father, one that wants to set us free from whatever has trapped us. And asks us what is our picture of God the Father and how is it defining our life? She urges us to be honest if we still fear God…(Play clip 5)
In this clip she lays out that our past, words or characteristics of fear, these things that she says could still be laying claim to you need to be let go, and insinuates that our lack of knowing God as our heavenly father is a result of these things in our past. Not our sins, not a lack of diving into his word and getting to know Christ, but merely letting go of our fears.
And since, she says, God is real, has adopted us and is a better father than we know it changes our life forever. But there is more. Since we are adopted we are also heirs. She then proceeds to read the rest of the passage: and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. She then brings back the Roman laws and institute that surrounded Roman adoption; describing how slaves who were adopted became heirs who were to carry on the legacy of the family, always the father’s and always representing him in the world. The slave is now an heir and has been given a purpose: (Play clip 6)
Now there is some tiny bit of truth in this in regards to a new life and gifts being given to us to do good works. Not some grand purpose, but works of service and love toward others, in big and small ways. But this is not what this passage is saying about our inheritance. While there are some blessings that we receive when we become Christians we can’t or won’t miss out on anything God has promised to give us. Before we get into what this passage means by being a heir and what is our inheritance, let's continue listening to what she has to say: (Play clip 7)
Now, like I said God does give us gifts, but is that our inheritance? Are our gifts our inheritance? And can we miss our inheritance because of fear? Is this what Paul means when he talks about being heirs? What does Paul say our inheritance is? Now let’s look at this text and do like we always should when trying to understand what it is trying to say and actually put it back in context.
Let’s start at verse 12 and read all the way to verse 25 :
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Romans 8:12-25
The inheritance talked about in Romans is not gifts that God has given to accomplish a purpose but the New Heavens and new earth, free of corruption and futility, and our new imperishable/sinless body that we will receive upon the return of Christ. But listen to what Mrs. Saxton says our inheritance is: (Play clip 8)
Jo Saxton is teaching that our inheritance is the gifts given by God to accomplish a purpose or great calling. These callings, such as great business opportunities, conversations, and church “births”, can be missed if we don’t open and receive our inheritance.
See this is how Scripture is twisted. It’s so often done that women miss it. A teacher reads the passage, pulls out one or 2 verses of that passage, focuses on just one point of the verse, and twists the meaning of that point to be whatever they’ve decided that it should mean and not actually what the original author intended it to mean. In Mrs. Saxton’s case she’s focusing on slavery and inheritance, but has made them mean what she wants them to mean and not what Paul actually has them mean. Slavery, from Mrs. Saxton’s teaching is servitude to our fears and our inheritance are the gifts that God has given to us to accomplish our calling in this life. A calling or purpose that can be neglected or missed because we might be slaves to our fears. Is that what Paul is trying to explain in his writings to the Romans?
This type of teaching is very world centered, very focused on this side of eternity. It is also, again, very burdensome on women. It causes one to look away from clear instruction from God encouraging his women to be focused on her home, her husband, her children, and her close neighbors, and makes her doubt that her simple faith in Christ through the outworking of love displayed in obedience to the commandments of God are not pleasing to God nor are fulfilling his calling for her life. Instead she is brought to reject these things and work toward “so- called” bigger works, a grand purpose or calling, that takes her away from her home and pushes her toward a world-changing work, thinking that she is accomplishing the Lord’s work received through subjective nudges based on what she FEELS God is calling her to, and rejecting the clear, concise instructions found in His word.
This type of teaching places more power in us to accomplish God’s will than in God Himself, for his will is dependent on us finding it and putting to use our gifts. Scripture speaks of no such God, nor of such power in man. God states in Isaiah 46:8-11
“Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.
If God purposed it He makes it happen. If it doesn’t happen, it wasn’t in God’s plan. PERIOD.
Mrs Saxton continues to encourage her audience that this inheritance, these gifts have our names on them and they are how God empowers us to live. What gifts have we left unwrapped, she poses. (Play clip 9)
Where are we? The church is doing exactly what God wants them to do, for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in (Ephs. 2:10).
If there is any inheritance that goes unclaimed, or un-received then God is a liar. For Scripture is clear that God’s… divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire (2Pet.1:3-4). All things relating to life and godliness are given to us through the knowledge of Christ. Life and godliness are his will. In the knowledge of Jesus Christ there is nothing that we need that Christ has not supplied to cause us to accomplish God’s will, partake of the divine nature, and escape corruption. And He has promised us the greatest gift of all, a new, incorruptible body and eternity with Him.
Instead, Jo Saxton, urges us to unwrap our gifts and proclaim the good news that God sets us free from fear, sin, comparison, sets us free from it all…(Play clip 10)
I think this was the only part of her message that I could, for a small part, agree with her. For if the Son has set us free, then we are free indeed (John 8:36). Free from sin. Free from all the ways we suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When we reject or deny that God is a good god who is in complete control, we end up living in fear and anxiety. When we reject that God knows best we live in the sin of ungratefulness, control, comparison, unhealthy competition, worry, and anger. Deep down these are all the result of coveting, wanting more than what God has given, and is blasphemy, rejecting God as God, and refusing to give Him glory for ALL that He has done and given. All of these deserve the wrath of God. Yet, the Son sets us free. Free from fear of the punishment and wrath of God, because of the Son’s sacrifice, and doesn't just give us a new beginning but an entirely new nature.
But Jo has made our problem our fears and not our sins, and our inheritance are gifts that magnify our works for the world. Romans does not teach this. Romans teaches that the problem lies with us, born with a sinful nature to reject God in all we do, think and say. Romans magnifies Christ’s life as our righteousness and His death on the cross as our propitiation for not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world, and we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments (1 John 2:2-3). We, who trust in Christ’s work are given the Spirit to set our minds on the things of the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Because we have this Spirit we are not to fall back in fear of the judgment and wrath of God but can come to him as Father, bearing witness that we are His children, heirs with Christ provided we suffer with Him in order that we be glorified with Him. These sufferings are nothing compared to the glory that will be revealed to us- the glory of the new heavens, new earth, and new body that will one day be given to us.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Corin 15:53-57)
This is our inheritance, this is what the Spirit groans for within us. And this inheritance will come to pass, for all those who trust in Christ Jesus.
And that is it for Jo Saxton’s message. What did you think ladies? Did she handle the text correctly? Was her teaching on Romans 8: 14-17 what Paul was trying to teach through it? Feel free to email me and let me know what you think, at throughlyequipped316@gmail.com.
But until next time, where we will be examine a message on Romans 8 verses 24-28 given by Ruth Cho-Simons, I pray that you are praising God that you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but a Spirit that draws you close to God as a loving Father, one who provided everything you needed to be made right with Him. A loving Father who sent his Son to die for you and promises to raise from the dead, like he raised Christ from the dead who is the firstborn among many brothers. I pray you are looking forward to your inheritance, desiring it greatly with each passing day.
And if you do not know this and are not assured of this promise, I pray that God grants it to you, for I pray that you are in His word.
MelbaToast
Introduction
Hello Ladies and welcome back to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped! So glad you have chosen to listen to this podcast. TE is part of the Christian Podcast Community, which I highly encourage you to check out at podcasts.strivingforeternity.org. The community reached 100,000 downloads in the month of April, and is still growing. The content and teaching that comes out of this community is just great, I can’t recommend it enough.
Today we are continuing our look at the IF:Gathering’s 2020 conference. If you’re just tuning in, I suggest you go back to the beginning of the series, which is episode 3 of this season. Now that’s because I go into why I’m addressing this in such detail. In the earlier episodes I presented to you the purpose of the conference along with the popular speakers. In this portion of the series we are looking at the way these teachers handle Scripture. And the 2020 conference is laid out perfectly for us to do just that as Jennie Allen set up the conference to be centered on Romans chapter 8, dividing the chapter into sections to which the speakers were to quote-unquote “focus completely and entirely on the Person of Jesus”. Even though chapter 8 is about the role and work of the Holy Spirit in the life of those who are the children of God, in all truthfulness, drawing out the Person and work of Jesus Christ and even proclaiming the Good News, is very easy to do. Christ and His work is proclaimed clearly in the first couple of verses of Romans 8. So That is what we want to determine: did these speakers handle the text rightly, and actually give us and teach us about Jesus? Or did they just give lip service to Jesus and instead choose to teach us what they want, their experiences, their life lessons, their opinions on the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, etc?
Last episode we examined two messages given on Romans 8 verses 1-8. One of the reasons I love doing this podcast is the opportunity to look at Scripture and really shine a light on how wonderful it really is. And even in critiquing books or messages, it is an opportunity to proclaim the beautiful good news of Christ and His work. And last week’s episode, looking at Romans 8:1-8 was a perfect opportunity to do just that. Jennie Allen was right in this regard, that Romans 8 is just so theologically rich. Really all of Romans is incredibly filling. In fact, Luther stated in his preface to his commentary on the epistle: “This letter is truly the most important piece in the New Testament.”(-Luther’s (1483 -1546) Preface to Romans).
Unfortunately what was given in these messages, BECAUSE they did not draw out from the text its rich theology, ended up being jello instead of meat. And meat is so satiating and filling ( believe me, I did the carnivore diet for over a month. Never has any other diet kept me full for so long that I was eating only 2 meals a day, 12 hours apart). Real good, deep theology, keeps you full through life; through trials and tribulations. “Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.” (Deut. 8:3; Matt.4:4).
The message we will look at today was given by Beth Moore who was to teach about Rom.8:9-11.
So let’s dive in shall we?
Before we get into Mrs. Moore’s message let’s dive into the text that she’s supposed to teach about.
Moore’s text is Romans 8:8-11, but like always let’s look at it in context.
Paul, throughout the first 7 chapters, basically presented the truth that ALL men are under condemnation and are born children of wrath due to their sinful nature. That men are born slaves to sin. Yet those who have been united with Christ, are no longer slaves to sin but to righteousness. And because we have been buried with Christ and raised with Him to newness of life, we are not under law but grace. Because we are under grace we present our bodies in obedience to God, slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification. In Chapter 7 Paul describes the battle between the flesh and the spirit within the man who wishes to obey the law of God, which is spiritual and good, yet is living in a body of flesh. It is here then that Paul proclaims the good news to those who wrestle with this inner battle. That there is no condemnation for those in Christ, because Christ did what we could not do, taking on human flesh, condemning sin in the flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. And this is where we'll get into the text. We will read Romans 8:5-13.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Here’s Mrs. Moore’s passage)
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
So this text is all about the work of the Spirit of Christ in the life of a believer. Paul has been constantly contrasting the flesh with the Spirit. And he makes it very clear in verse 8 that the flesh cannot please God. Why? 1) those who are in the flesh do not have faith as Paul describes how people suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom.1:18-25). They don’t hold to the truth and live in it, but in rebellion actually suppress it. And without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6). 2) Those who do not have faith in Christ and His work, do not have the Spirit of Christ and therefore do not belong to Christ.
But those who have faith in Christ, were buried and raised with Christ and are indwelt with the Spirit, who now are empowered to put to death the deeds of the flesh and live. That same power that raised Jesus from the dead is given to us to raise us to walk in righteousness, to desire to obey the law, and in that desire obey the best we can. That is what this text is saying, that is the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Now…is this what Beth Moore will talk about?
Now let’s get into her message:
Beth Moore starts out praising the IF:Gathering as a work of God because of Jennie’s lack of knowledge in what she was getting into and its radical explosion over the years. But can we know that something is a work of God because of the weakness of someone’s ability or the growth in attendance and involvement? Now I hope to address this type of thinking as it’s often pointed out in IF throughout the years. Christine Caine even describes it as revival in the 2021 Conference. So, Lord willing, I want to think about what are the evidences of a work of the Spirit of God? What fruit should we look at to test the spirits (1 John 4:1)?
She then begins to talk about her love for the word of God, how it saved her soul and mind. She gives a testimony of a bible teacher of her who preached the word of God with such passion that she decided that she wanted that same passion; to love the word of God more than she loved her next meal. And like her, she relays that there may be ladies listening that may see that passion and hunger in someone and cry out for that type of passion. Now let’s listen in because this is her set up for talking about the work of the Spirit. (Play clip 1)
There are several things here that I could agree with, yes, let us have that passion to love God’s word, his Son, and our neighbor. And yes when we have that desire, God will answer our prayers, because in loving God we will ask in agreement to his will. In fact, Rom 8 in a way touches on this. Paul, indirectly talks about this, that the Spirit not only gives us the desire to see God’s will accomplished but the power to accomplish it. In this portion of Scripture the will of God is obedience to the law, and more specifically his will for us is to believe in Jesus Christ who fulfilled that law. But is this where Beth Moore will go?
She then lays out the format of the Conference, noting how Jennie planned it that each speaker should address a portion of Romans 8 to be expounded upon and cohesively come together in the end. For her she was portioned out Rom.8:9-11 but there are two verses that she says she is going to focus on.
Now, let’s stop for a bit here. We have already read the text in context. And if you listened to the last episode I want to remind you of a couple of things at this point. 1) That it was acknowledged in the introduction that there are likely unbelievers listening to these sessions 2) That Jada had opportunity to present the Gospel (the life and death of Jesus Christ presented to us as a gift to be received by faith for the forgiveness of our sins and salvation from the wrath to come). Romans 8 clearly lays this out for us in the opening passages. ANd yet it was not given. The Gospel was watered down to “God pursuing us”.
So at this point the unbeliever has been told that God took care of their greatest need (not really expounding on that) by God pursuing them. And now they are told to dive into this portion of Romans without anyone drawing out what it means to walk in the flesh. We got Jennie’s take on setting the mind on the flesh versus setting the mind on the spirit. By which she interprets “setting the mind on the flesh” as focusing on worldly pursuits such as success, money, material items, etc. While to set the mind on the Spirit is interpreted as thinking positively and pursuing peace, kindness, joy, love, confidence, etc. No talk of how one who walks in the flesh is a slave to sin, while the one setting their mind on the Spirit is to set the mind on Christ, and in love for him obey the law, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. It is this dichotomy that Paul presents to the reader so that they may ascertain whether they truly have the Spirit of Christ. And that is where these verses are going to go. But for one who hasn’t been presented with this dichotomy, nor the Gospel, they may come to the text thinking they have been given the Spirit because they do not pursue success or material things, and work their best at defeating negative thoughts.
So now, Beth goes to the passage. And she is going to present to us her goal for the message she is about to give. (Play clip 2)
Ok, So she reads the text, repeats a couple of times: “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Him” and proceeds to give her goal for the message, saying that she wishes for God to use the message to cause every single one of us to “ greatly value that which is in us”, so that “this treasure that was put within us would so sky rocket that we would respond in such a way to yield to what the HS wants to do”.
Ok, let’s look at these two verses again:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
This is the text she has been given to teach on and her goal is to encourage us to value the Spirit that lives with us in such a way that we yield to what He wants us to do? Ok, my question is: does the Holy Spirit through Paul, in writing this passage, have the same goal? Is that what He intended in writing these verses? Paul definitely wants to encourage believers. He wants to encourage them by directing them to observe their walk, and assure them that if they are in Christ they have His Spirit which empowers them to walk like Christ. So when Beth Moore says that she wants us to treasure the Holy Spirit so much so that we yield to what he wants of us- does she mean to live by faith in Christ Jesus and submitting to God’s Law? What is it that the Spirit wants us to do? Does she believe it is arrived at subjectively? Let’s find out.
She uses how women value the life of an unborn child in the womb as an example of valuing the Spirit within us. And makes the claim that if this passage was an instagram story it would be at this point that all sorts of emojis would be placed, for it is this passage that reveals who’s Spirit has been at work all along.(Play clip 3)
Yes, this is a wondrous and glorious thing. Paul is saying that the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit and Christ’s Spirit, That same Spirit that worked with God in creation, worked in Christ perfect righteousness and raised Him from the dead. And Paul is reminding us that that same Spirit worked in us to raise us to life, to be led by him (verse 14), to walk in him and give life to our mortal bodies.
At this time she leaves the text and gives the listeners a bunch of verses that talk about God’s Spirit being Christ’s Spirit. Now what she’s doing here is called proof-texting. That’s where one takes a bunch of verses out of context to build a theology. Proof texting, done correctly is good, but if the verses are taken out of context to be given a different meaning than what they mean IN context, then that is a no-no. Beth Moore, at this point isn’t quite miss-handling the verses given. She is using them to explain how God’s Spirit was Christ’s Spirit from the beginning. That He resides in us giving us supernatural power: (Play clip 5)
Yes! I agree we have been given supernatural power. And Yes, we should be desiring to please God and be an example of Christ to others- BUT…what does that look like? How does one mirror Christ? Is that subjectively determined? Do I go by inner impressions just like Beth Moore does? Am I like Christ because I feel nudged to show kindness to some man by brushing his hair? Do I live like Christ by responding to inner impressions that convict me to do this or that? Or does Scripture lay out for us what righteousness looks like, what actually pleases God? Will She clarify what it means to be an example of Jesus Christ, the perfect man who fulfilled the whole law, constantly doing the will of the Father?
She clarifies why we are given this supernatural power. That without the Spirit we do not have the capacity to fulfill our callings. (Play clip 6)
That’s a problem. IF one has the Spirit of God HE will cause one to fulfill our purpose. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. This word “handiwork” comes from the Greek “poiēma” and means “something crafted with skill and for a purpose by God”. God accomplishes his purpose through us. Now Beth Moore wants to make this purpose some grand thing, such as becoming a speaker, leader, mother, etc. some type of career or ministry position. But God’s will is broader than that. He desires that people love Him and love neighbor. And how we do that is revealed to us by his law. This is our purpose, these are our good works. They can be performed in our careers and ministries, they can be performed in service to our children and husband, stranger or friend, through trial and tribulation.
She continues on to present passages talking about The Spirit’s work and side tracks a bit asking us to imagine what type of reception Christ may have received upon his ascension to heaven. Turning and talking about the eternal plan of God to send his Son. and then she says this: (Play clip 7)
So having certain types of encounters should be our food? I mean Christ said that His food was to do God’s will. But again, what is God’s will? Jesus elaborates on this when He repeats Deut. 8:3 while under the temptation of the devil. He was hungry, physically hungry, and in His great hunger He said to Satan“‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” (Matt.4:4). And Christ was sent to do God’s will, that will being EXACTLY what we see in Romans 8 By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. So when Christ says “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.” In John 4:34 he is talking about God’s word, to fulfill God’s word is to do God’s work.
While we can experience instances in life that give praise and honor to God’s providential work in our lives, what Jesus is referring to here is the accomplishment of God’s word. We too, are well fed when we trust in that word (Christ and the Scriptures) and walk in Him (being led by the Spirit) to obey His word (Christ and the Scriptures).
She goes back to imagining how those in eternity observed Jesus’s life, death and resurrection. And then instructs us to turn to Ephesians Chapter 1 reading from verse 15-23. And then goes into some context of this passage, referencing Ephesians Chapter 3 to talk about how we may get a sense that Paul is trying to convey some type of boundless space and Christ is filling all of it. Then talks about the Apostles watching Christ ascend; and we read it as if it's something that was normal, yet the Apostles were probably astounded. (Play clip 8)
We are meant to be awed, and I appreciate the exaltation of Christ here.
At this point we are 40 min into her message that is almost an hour long. And really, she’s been all over the place, pulling out Scripture here and pulling out Scripture there. Scripture that references the Spirit of Christ, and even talks about Christ’s authority, and references verses to that as well. But here’s the thing…do you feel you understand Romans 8: verses 9-11? Has Mrs. Moore helped us understand what the author’s intent was in writing it?
She goes back into Acts as it describes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the adding of God’s people to the Church, recites lyrics to a song sung in their worship time. Now if you were watching this, all throughout her message she would stop and put candles on a cake, it is at this point that she lights them as she is reciting the lyrics to the song which describe how the Spirit quote-unqoute “lite the flame” in the birth of the church.
Now it is after describing the work of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, that she begins to talk about the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit, to testify of Jesus Christ. We are to speak with “tongues of fire” by our lives, our love and our testimony by the power of the holy Spirit. (Play clip 9)
Ok, God wants to change us by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, he most certainly does! He does a greater work than any physical, earthly miracle we could see, He raises the dead to life. People dead in their trespasses and sins and raises them to newness of life. People who used to suppress God’s word, suppress the truth, now love God’s word, and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to keep it, not perfectly, and with much struggle against our flesh, but the desire and motivation to love God by keeping His word is there (John 14:15). And that is Exactly what Romans 8 is ALL about. And Ephesians 3 dives into this as well. That through the power of the Gospel, proclaimed by Paul to the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ might be made known. Because of this Gospel, Paul prays that the church be “strengthened with power through his Spirit in [their] inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in [their] hearts through faith—that [they], being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that [they] may be filled with all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us,...”(Ephs. 3:16-20). This is the transformation work that the Holy Spirit does. He brings us to faith, to trust in Christ, know and comprehend the love of our Lord, and empower us to walk in his statutes.
But listen to what she means by transformation. Is it the transformation as Paul describes or something else? (Play clip 10)
Ok, so the work of the Holy Spirit is to empower you for your calling. That your life looks supernatural. Ladies, when we hear something like that we most likely go: “yeah, that’s what I want”. Most of us imagine that that kind of life would be full of adventures, risks, and successes. But I tell you that this is 1) reviles the real work of the Holy Spirit, who, like I mentioned earlier, does a miraculous work in the salvation of an individual, bringing one out of darkness and into light (1Pet.2:9). This work is not visible,.. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8) it is weak, imperceptible, and not spectacular in our eyes; yet it is so very powerful. 2) this is so very burdensome on women. It makes one look at their life now, and doubt if they even have the Spirit. A typical woman working to support and love her family, serving in nursery at her local church, doing her best to submit to her husband is left to doubt the work of the Spirit in her life. To many women have fallen for this, thinking they were not serving God rightly in these things, dropping them to pursue a “higher” calling, one subjectively received. Instead of merely being grounded in God’s word, obeying His commands,being faithful to Him in service to those closest to us, family, friends, church home.
For my sanity at this point, I’m going to stop. There is still 15 min left in the message but most of it is her telling the listeners about a ministry she is head of and a story of one day dancing for Jesus with a member of the ministry.
So I’m going to conclude her message with this: She pulls out a bunch of Scripture that talks about receiving the Holy Spirit and basically claims that the HS will empower us to accomplish our calling, testify of Christ’s work in our lives, and make our lives supernatural. But Rom 8:9-11 is explaining that those who are in Christ have the Spirit which is in stark contrast to those who are in the flesh. Those in Christ do not have their minds set on the flesh but on the things of the Spirit (vs13) putting to death the deeds of the body and submitting to God’s law (vs 7). She spent most of the 50 min pulling out other verses in the Bible to talk about the Spirit of God as the Spirit of Christ, in hopes of encouraging the listeners to value what is inside them, claiming that that Spirit empowers them to live supernatural lives. Did we get all that from Romans 8:9-11 when we read it?
Beth Moore is a favorite within Evangelical circles. She was heralded in her introduction at IF:Gathering as a great bible teacher and spiritual mother to the speakers there. She is a great orator. She can tell a story and can quote Scripture like nobody else I’ve seen. But she’s all over the place, and for those of us who want to know what Scripture actually says, to study it and get in depth, the way she handles it causes distractions. You certainly get a lot of information, but are you actually getting fed?
What did you think? Do you think she addressed the text correctly? Let me know…feel free to email me at thoroughlyequipped316@toastiemel
So ladies, until next time, I pray that as you read Romans 8, you are valuing the work that God has done in you. That you praise Him for taking out your heart of stone, putting in a heart of flesh (Ezk.36:26) granting you the faith to believe in the Son of God. That you praise him for granting you the Holy Spirit to empower you to walk in His statues, to love His law, and obey his commands. If you are convicted, knowing that you have not kept God’s law, and are not walking in His ways, I pray that you read all of Romans and as you do, you are brought to love God for sending His son to fulfill the law for you and bear the cross for your sins so you might be reconciled to God, and that you are, by grace, given faith to trust in the work of Christ. WHen you do that you are given the Helper, the Spirit of Christ, to walk in faith and to accomplish the good works of the law for your neighbor that God prepared beforehand that you should walk in. Whether those be accomplished in service to our employers, our teachers, our parents, our husbands, our children, our friends, or a stranger.
I pray, ladies, you are in His word.
MelbaToast
Transcript
Introduction:
Hello ladies and welcome to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped. So glad you could join me today and if you are new, welcome. We are trudging on ahead with a critique on the very popular women's conference the IF:Gathering. If this is your first time listening I highly suggest you first go to my trailer for Thoroughly Equipped and then dive into the first of this series on IF, which is Episode 3 of this season, which is season 2.
In the first part of this critiques series I present to you the heart or purpose of IF:Gathering and we compare their goal in discipleship to Scripture’s goal in discipleship. I had the intent of diving straight into looking at the ministries of the popular female speakers that are platformed in the conference so I could give you guys a litmus test by which to judge who’s authority they put themselves under, and realized that I probably should make a case for the first question in the test, and that is do they preach and teach over men in the church service. So the 2nd episode in the series deals with what Scripture says in regard to this. In the 3rd episode of the series I presented to you the litmus test and these women’s ministries, books, speaking engagements and activities within popular Evangelicalism today. In the last episode of this series I wanted to present to you a case by George Whitfield on why we should always be about knowing Christ. And today’s episode is about the way these speakers handle Scripture in the conference.
Now to really hone in on this, I’m going to go back to the 2020 conference. And that’s because, in this conference Mrs. Allen decided to have each of the speakers give a message on Romans 8, splitting the chapter into sections from which they will teach. And, yes, we are going to address each message. To lay out for you how I’m going to tackle this I will present the speaker, read the passage that they are supposedly teaching on, and then give you a synopsis of what they spoke about. I’m going to be far and address what I felt was good and then play for you clips where there are issues and problematic teachings. If you are able, I highly suggest you grab your bible and open up to Romans. We are going to be going though referencing through more than just chapter 8 because this chapter is not to be read in a vacuum, but is in the context of a letter written to the Romans on the Christian faith, and more specific to this chapter, the contrast between those who walk in the flesh and those who walk in the Spirit.
To start…I’m going to play for you a clip from the 2020 Conference introduction given by Jennie Allen herself, talking about her vision for that year’s conference. (Play Intro clip 1)
She portrays a desire that the audience come to know Jesus and proclaim Jesus to the world. So as I present to you their messages, keep this in mind and observe how much they talk about Him and proclaim Him. She continues discussing her hopes for the women attending: (Play Intro clip 2)
- She believes it is the mission of God’s people to change the world. I want to bring to your attention that the mission of the Church is to make disciples of Christ- to baptize them in the name of the Father, SOn, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that He has commanded (Matt. 28:19-20).
The goal is not to change the world, but to save individuals from God’s wrath to come. God’s wrath is against the world and the world knows it and it hates God. Christ states this in John 15:18-25 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’
The world wants change, but change done it’s way. It wants change without God, without repentance of their sin, and without the work of Christ. It does not want to be reconciled to God, as it hates the Father. The problem with popular evangelicalism today, is that it wants to comply with the world’s way of changing instead of God’s way of changing. And I fully am convinced, now that the IF:Gathering does exactly that. That is one of the things I wish to present to you in the future critique of this series. (Play Intro clip 3)
So in that clip that she acknowledges that there may be people in the audience who are “just checking Jesus out”. That would imply that unbelievers are in the audience. And she emphasizes how they will go through Roman chapter 8 and will leave with more of Jesus. So I want to see if the Gospel is actually presented. Do any of the speakers present our problem and placard Christ as our only hope? Romans is the PERFECT place to go to get a thorough proclamation of both these things. But Romans 8, if not handled in context and twisted, can easily lead an unbeliever that they are right with God, WITHOUT acknowledging their sin, their repentance of their sin, and their need for a savior because of their sin. The majority of the book of Romans itself is proclaiming our problem and need for Christ. So let’s keep this in mind as well, to observe if they are taught that they are sinners under God’s judgment, and are urged to trust in Christ and His work for the forgiveness of their sins.
The 2020 conference is a perfect opportunity to show how these women handle Scripture. Do they draw out from the scripture, in context, what the Holy Spirit, through Paul, wishes to teach us? Or do they take certain verses, words or concepts out of their context so they may interject what they want to teach? Do they talk more about themselves, their stories, or do they talk about Christ and His work? Do they talk rightly talk about sin so that they can rightly give the Gospel? Do they make the Gospel more about God’s great love for you, His pursuit of you, and His plan for you without first explaining our sinful nature, our state as children of wrath, who have no hope without trusting in the finished work of Christ? Do they exalt Christ and His work, because by it we have no other hope, or do they treat the Gospel as something of the past and now we need motivational, engaging, speeches to live as Christians. Do they not only proclaim by words that the Scriptures are authoritative, without error and sufficient to train us unto righteousness, but ACT on that belief by teaching from the Scriptures, handling it with honor in its context, urging their listeners to look to it to thoroughly equip them for all good works? Or do they dishonor it and minimize its necessity to equip us by adding their own philosophies, examples, and opinions?
Let’s really look at the way they handle scripture.
The first session centered on Rom. 8 was a message delivered by Jada Edwards on verse 1-4.
START HERE
Let’s look at the text Rom 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Mrs Edwards starts her message on a story mourning the loss of a sports star who recently (in 2020) had passed away. She uses the story to dive into the theme of her message: How the world views Christianity and its answer to the problem of evil in the world. She rightly points out that people come to Christianity thinking it will fulfill our worldly needs. (Play clip 1)
Ok, so how true is that! it is exactly what I did in my own religious life. And I’m super impressed that she would point this out. I wish, tho, that she would call it what it is. Pride, sin, doubt in God’s sovereignty and goodness. Rc Sproul describes these people as wanting the blessings of God but not wanting God Himself. And that is so true of so many people in the purpose driven, pragmatic, and prosperity gospel churches. They come to God for blessings, whether that be the blessing of purpose, security, success, material possessions, successful marriages, health and wealth, not understanding their deepest need God Himself.
After describing in her life how she has to, at times, remind her kids that the provisions of candy, sleeping on a mattress, eating dinner, etc are treats, she explains how we sometimes don’t understand that God has supplied our greatest need making all other things treats. It is after explaining this that she dives into the text. Now, I really appreciated that she went into what Paul wrote before chapter 8, because it’s in these chapters that our sinful nature is laid bare for us and Christ’s work is argued as our only salvation. And she points out that there is bad news that comes before this good news that we receive in chapter 8.
(play clip 2)
I can appreciate whatr she is saying in this clip. But there is something I want to point out in the 2nd to last statement she states there…that Paul, in chapter 7 is conveying that he “is a mess” and has internal conflict. That’s only half the issue. Let’s look at this portion in chapter 7 and we’re going to start in verse13 and read through to 23.
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, cit is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. (here is the specific text that she is probably referencing):
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For dI delight in the law of God, ein my inner being, 23 but I see in my members fanother law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our LOrd! So then, I myself, serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
So we really need to take notice of what Paul is describing here. That our sinful nature, our fleshly passions are what drive us to sin, and the law is good and spiritual and right, and by it our sins are brought to light and exposed. So Paul is describing an internal conflict but not merely an internal one, but a conflict of the Spirit against the flesh. In his mind he agrees with the LAW of God, the commands of God, that they should be obeyed and fulfilled, but his flesh fights him and produces sinful acts. That’s what he means by I see in my members fanother law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. And that he serves the law of God with his mind but with his flesh serves the law of sin.
Here is the way Mrs. Edwards describes the conflict (Play clip 3).
No, the internal struggle is not like justifying eating something that is bad for you. It’s the struggle not to sin because sin is rebellion against the God who created us, against the divine man who lived and died for us, and it quenches the Spirit that dwells within us.
Why do I make a point in clarifying this? Because this will become a common theme in each and every message given by the speakers. That our conflict is a battle of the mind and our sin is trivial. But we see from this passage and Rom.8 that the battle is between the Spirit and the flesh. For the Christian the mind delights in the law of God, internally, but our flesh fights us to keep us from fulfilling the law, causing us to sin. So there are internal and outward actions being talked about here. But IF:Gathering will make it all about internal issues, such as lack of confidence, control, comparison, lack of joy and hope, fear, not feeling accepted, etc; instead of our struggle with sin and obedience to the law.
Is it intentional? I believe it is. Why do I make that conclusion? Because, while they did read ALL of chapter 8 in the beginning of the conference, the specific passages referencing the flesh; how it cannot submit to God’s law, how we are not to set our minds on the flesh and are to put it to death (sins. Rom.8:13); these verses are either twisted or ignored entirely by the speakers in messages given.
Going back to Jada’s message, she continues in teaching us that we will have conflict and conviction as well, where she then goes on to relay how God may speak to us at times, convicting us of certain things. Her examples of times she’s been convicted are again very trivial, describing where she thinks God has told her to be quiet, or where He brought Scripture to her mind to which she thought it was to correct someone else but he says it is actually for her. I actually find this funny, as if only certain portions of Scripture are to be applied to her at certain times, as if they are not for her at ALL times.
And then she talks about being IN Christ Jesus means those who follow Christ Jesus. Instead of drawing out from Scripture what it means to follow Christ, she talks about society’s idea of following people on social media to clarify that to follow Jesus doesn’t mean what the world makes it to be but that it means that one is committed and has made Jesus Lord.
She rightfully points out that it's only in Christ Jesus that we find freedom (play clip 4).
This is where she could go right back into the text of Rom.8:1-4 and draw wout HOW Christ has given us freedom and from what. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. We were set free from the condemnation that is rightfully due to us because we did not keep God’s law. Which is why CHrist came in the likeness of sinful flesh to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for us. It is CHrist’s active obedience imputed or credited to us that sets us free from the law of sin and death. That is why we are free. Mrs. Edwards does not go into this but continues with the practicality of our freedom and how we do not need to justify or defend our lives to others, and encouraging us not to hide when life is happening, because since Christ set us free from eternal condemnation, he can certainly set us free from earthly condemnation.
She then appeals to 2 types of people in the audience who may not be convinced of the truth of this gospel and then presents it to us…(play clip 5)
I have to squabble on this…but we are talking about the Gospel here. THE GOOD NEWS. and she got the problem right, pointing out that we were in rebellion against God, but God’s solution or action to fix the problem was not that He pursued us, though it was all His work and is a gift He gives to us. His solution was to He send His Son to live in perfect obedience to the law to fulfill the law for us and then willingly got to the cross, taking our sin upon Himself, becoming sin who knew NO sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corin. 5:21). To minimize the work of Christ to mere pursuit, leaving out the actual work in accomplishing our reconciliation to God is to not present the Gospel at all. And we know that there are unbelievers in this conference who NEED to hear what Christ did to make us right with God.
She then encourages us to encourage others into this gospel, challenging them not to alter this word, because it’s uncomfortable or inconvenient, yet, she herself altered it in a way, minimizing the work of Christ to mere “pursuing us”. And she really hammers this, you can even hear the emotion in her voice. If she had presented the Gospel fully, I would have been right there getting emotional and shouting “Amen!” in my spirit. And I get, we can misspeak, and forget points in the moment, but that is why it is best to exegete the text. If she had merely done that she would have drawn out from the text and other Scripture passages the full Gospel, ESPECIALLY in Romans because that is what it is all about.
I tell ya, I like Jada Edwards. From previous sermons of hers I think she grasps Scriptural truths and would be a great teacher to women if she focused on exegeting the Scripture more than making it relatable through stories and experiences; as well as being a beautiful testimony to the Authority of Scripture if she submitted to it’s instruction for women. She’s funny, quick witted, and engaging, yet she regularly peaches and teaches to a mixed congregation in her church. But that is par-the-course for most of the speakers at the IF:Gathering.
Jennie Allen Rom.8:5-8
The next message we are going to tackle is Jennie Allen’s message on Rom. 8:5-8. So let’s look at that passage before we dive into the message. Let’s look at it in context including verses 1-4 as well. (read Rom.8:1-8)
So remember, just a bit ago we looked at what Paul was talking about at the end of Chapter 7. In which, he is explaining how the Spirit wrestles with the flesh. That the law is spiritual but the flesh is sold under sin, therefore he does not understand his own actions. That in his mind he is agreeing with the law, that it is good. And yet, he does not accomplish the law. He has the desire to do what is right, obey the law, but the evil he does not want to do he keeps on doing. He delights in the law of God, in his inner being, but he sees in his members another law that wages war against the mind, making him captive to the law of sin that dwells in his members. It is because he delights in God’s law and wishes to obey it that he cries out in desperation that he is wretched because he is in need of a righteousness that is not his own so that he may be reconciled to God. And it is from identifying this need that the Gospel rescues us from condemnation. That’s where chapter 8 is taking off…(read Rom. 8:1-8)
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.1 2 For the law of hthe Spirit of life ihas set you2 free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For jGod has done what the law, kweakened by the flesh, lcould not do. mBy sending his own Son nin the likeness of sinful flesh and ofor sin,3 he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that pthe righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, qwho walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For rthose who live according to the flesh set their minds on sthe things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on tthe things of the Spirit. 6 For to set uthe mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is vhostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; windeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Ok, clearly, in context, Paul is talking about the war between the Spirit and the flesh, the inability of the flesh to be able to obey or submit to God’s law, for it cannot. But those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on things of the Spirit. But what does it mean by setting the mind on the Spirit? That’s what I want you to keep in mind, because this is what Mrs. Allen’s message is all about. The question tho, is: What does Mrs Allen say “setting our mind on the Spirit is”? Is it the same as what Scripture describes here?
So let’s dive in..
Right off the bat she states that this passage is about what it means to “set the mind'' and that God gave her an analogy to be used. She reads the text UP to verse 7 and explains that what we set our minds on is what we are going to think about.
She recites verse 7 and 8 but moves on to say that we do not have life and peace without Jesus, and states we have another “storyline” if we have Jesus, one who sets their mind on the Spirit. Now this is where her analogy comes in: (I’ll describe it for those listening through the podcast) On the stage she has two basketball hoops, one on either side of the stage. She describes that one side is setting the mind on the flesh and the other hoop is setting our mind on the Spirit. She proceeds to throw the basketball at the “flesh” hoop, listing off certain fleshly things such as success, career, riches, pleasures, etc as she aims for the net. She then proceeds to the opposite side and then asks people to tell her what a person looks like who has set their mind on the Spirit. Check out what they say..(play JAllen clip 1)
Ok, so she has set it up to describe a person who has set their mind on the Spirit as looking like one who has peace, hope, confidence, etc. And this sounds legit, doesn’t it, but there is a slight problem and I will get into that in a bit, but first let's see where she goes with the analogy.
So she’s throwing the basketball into the net to make the point that someone who sets their mind on the Spirit will make the net. And then (for those of you listening by podcast) a group of women circle her and block her from making the net. Here’s the clip (play JAllen clip 2)
So by her analogy, she is trying to draw out that there are things that keep us from making that “net”. That if we set our minds to being peaceful, hopeful, confident we as the church should be accomplishing that. Here’s the problem: Is this what Paul means by “setting our minds on the Spirit”? Is it a conflict between good and evil and choosing peace, hope, joy, etc other than worldly things? Nope.
All throughout the letter to the Romans Paul has been describing how ALL men are under the wrath of God because they DO NOT submit to God’s law. He is not saying our problem is that we pursue material things, success, careers, riches, and we only need to pursue peace, love and joy. These certainly are things we need to address. But in this passage he is talking about something way more specific, obeying the law of God. Another issue in twisting “setting our minds on the Spirit'' to mean this is that she has made these things (peace, hope, love, kindness, etc) LAW. Things one must strive for as a Christian. But they are not Law, they are fruits. They are a result of our freedom in the Gospel. The results of those who have crucified the flesh. Gal.5:13-24 expounds upon this even more. (Read Gal 5:13-24)
13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. qOnly do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love rserve one another. 14 For sthe whole law is fulfilled in one word: t“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you ubite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, vwalk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify wthe desires of the flesh. 17 For xthe desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, yto keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are zled by the Spirit, ayou are not under the law. 19 Now bthe works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, cdivisions, 21 envy,4 drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that dthose who do5 such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But ethe fruit of the Spirit is flove, joy, peace, patience, gkindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 hgentleness, iself-control; jagainst such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus khave crucified the flesh with its lpassions and desires.
What bothers me most about this twist is in making these fruits law, she is rejecting that these are the works of the 3rd Person of the Trinity. Not our works…His works.
But it gets worse. She then goes into some statistics dealing with negative thoughts…(play JAllen clip 3)
Ok, so…over 80% of our thoughts are negative and 90% are repetitive from the day before. Meaning we are thinking the same toxic thoughts over and over again. I find this quite interesting. Are any of these negative thoughts related to sins we have committed? That in some form we talk down to ourselves because of guilt? But how was this determined? What is considered a negative thought? A thought to myself that might say “I can’t do such and such…” may seem negative, but may be true. Then again it may also be a chance for the power of God to be thought and meditated on…But notice where she is going with this…she connects negative thought with an “enemy”. (Play JAllen clip 4)
She then relays her story on how she went through 18 months of doubting God. But again this portion of Scripture is not about doubt, it’s about putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Obeying God’s Law through the power of the Spirit because Christ is in us. The same power that raised Christ from the grave lives in us to actually help us obey God, albeit not perfectly, but it is the goal of the mind and the heart to submit to God.
We are now 16 min in and she now grabs her bible opens it up and says this: (play JAllen clip 5)
Ok, couple of things going on in this clip:
Let’s start with the good. Amen, Salvation is God’s work, and our faith is a gift from Him and as Christ says in John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Reformed theology describes this doctrine as the perseverance of the saints. A very comforting doctrine derived from Scripture.
But I want to look at the passage in John 8 that she went to. Because she’s using this passage to say that the devil comes in the dark to give us lies when we don’t pay attention. Is John 8:44 saying this as well?
Remember how she talked about freedom? It’s wonderful how God’s word is, because it is in John 8 that Jesus talks about being set free. Let’s put the verse back in context and look at it and see if Jesus is talking about the thoughts in our minds. Read John 8:31-47)
1 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, c“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will dknow the truth, and the truth ewill set you free.” 33 They answered him, f“We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, geveryone who practices sin is a slave2 to sin. 35 hThe slave does not remain in the house forever; ithe son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet jyou seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 kI speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard lfrom your father.”
39 They answered him, m“Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, n“If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now oyou seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth pthat I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, q“We were not born of sexual immorality. We have rone Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, s“If God were your Father, you would love me, for tI came from God and uI am here. vI came not of my own accord, but whe sent me. 43 xWhy do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot ybear to hear my word. 44 zYou are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. aHe was a murderer from the beginning, and bdoes not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. cWhen he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 dWhoever is of God hears the words of God. eThe reason why you do not hear them is that fyou are not of God.”
This passage starts with Jesus contrasting His disciples with the disciples of Satan. Those who abide in Jesus’ word are His disciples because it is the truth and it will set them free. Jesus, talking to the Pharisees, describes them as being enslaved to the devil, slaves to their sin because they practice sin. And that if they loved God they would love Him. But they do not because they are of their father the devil, who is a liar and the father of lies. So the truth is in relation to God’s word, and specifically the truth that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. While those who do not believe in Christ and do not abide in His word are believing the lie of Satan. And in believing Satan they will die in their sins, but not only that, but they (the pharisees) are like their father Satan who is a murderer, as they seek to kill Christ.
So this verse is not in relation to our doubts and negative thoughts that enter our mind in the dark.
Here’s the thing, tho. By introducing an enemy, something outside of ourselves, she rejects that it is our flesh that is the problem. This may allow a person who sets their mind on the flesh to continue to set their mind on the flesh, aka live in sin, yet believe they are setting their mind on the Spirit by merely thinking positive thoughts.
The other issue with this is that she does not differentiate between negative thought and LIES. These are two different things. Negative thoughts can be subjective. WHat one person takes negatively another may not. But lies…lies are objective, they are lies regardless how one takes them or feels about them. By connecting evil behind negative thoughts without making a distinction that negative thoughts DO NOT necessarily mean LIES, she has made a way for a person to reject truth in claiming the “negative thought” is from the evil one.
Here’s an example: I feel called to preach a sermon to a mixed congregation at a Sunday morning church service and have been invited by my pastor to do so. In preparation for my sermon, a thought comes to my mind that I shouldn’t be doing this, that it’s not right, that I am a woman and I am unqualified. I label these “negative thoughts” and identify them as coming from Satan to keep me from accomplishing God’s will. After all He put this desire in my heart, right?
See what I did there. I decide what is negative and positive. And in my sin, what I want to hear is always deemed positive. But the real question is: Is it true? She identifies negative thoughts as coming from the enemy and He is a liar therefore the negative thoughts are lies. This is a problem.
Does Romans 8:5-8 talk about an enemy that presents negative thoughts to us? No…it does not talk about an enemy outside of us, but is talking about our own flesh, our very nature, as we are enemies against God living in unrighteousness and ungodliness and under sin (Rom. 3:9-10; 5:10). All throughout Romans Paul is making clear that all of mankind are sinners and will one day stand guilty before God because we suppress the truth in unrighteousness and in that suppression follow our flesh and transgress against God’s Holy Law. The case that Paul is making is that we are under sin guided by our flesh, and the battle in the context of Rom.8:5-8 is with our flesh, our sinful nature not an enemy outside of ourselves who presents us with negative thoughts, but our own flesh that presents us with sin.
She then asks the question: what is the fight and how are we going to fight? Her answer is that we set the mind on the Spirit. Here’s where she explains what it means to set the mind on the Spirit means: (Play clip 6)
Scene 7
Yes! This is very true. But…Rom 8:5-8 is a bit more specific than merely focusing on God. Setting the mind on the Spirit is setting the mind on God, but the text explains what it means to set the mind on the SPirit- to put to death the deeds of the flesh. Going back to verse 6 : For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. In the context of Romans to set our mind in the Spirit is to set our mind on God, yes, but more specifically, to set our minds on obeying His commands, to submit to God’s law.
After referencing 2 Corinthians 10:4 (really only reading half of the verse) to point to the spiritual battle as a battle of the mind and our lack of knowledge of God. She makes a good point that we tend to buy the lie of self help books, instead of looking at Jesus.
And now she will lead us into the weapons she will give us to fight this spiritual battle so that we may set our minds on the spirit. (Play clip 9)
So our first weapon is The Word of God (what is true). But she doesn’t clarify that Scripture is that word.
The second weapon is The Spirit of God who brings possibility or capacity beyond anything we can imagine. Relays a story of what she does now when woken up in the middle of the night- she rebukes Satan and then prays for missions). This is her example of the Holy Spirit bringing possibility?...but where is the reliance on the word of God? The Holy Spirit does not bring possibility to our lives, but faith, understanding of God’s word, repentance, and fruit in keeping with repentance- obedience to His word. In fact, this is what Romans 8 is about: the role and power of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life.
Her third weapon is the People of God. That we should confess our thoughts to others so they will bring the word of God- again not clarifying that the Word of God is Scripture.
My question is: does Scripture give us weapons to use to fight spiritual battles? Yes. It does. God in his grace gave us his very words IN Scripture to thoroughly equip us for EVERY good work. Do those good works include fighting and wrestling with spiritual issues? Yes, in Ephesians 6:10-20. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul is very clear what weapons and armor we are to equip ourselves with to “stand against the schemes of the devil” (verse 11). These weapons are the “belt of truth”, the “breastplate of righteousness” (clothed with Christ as He is our righteousness (1 Corin. 1:30), “shoes for our feet” (the readiness to give an answer for the hope that is within us- 1 Pet.3:15), the “shield of faith to extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one”, the “helmet of salvation” (the Gospel applied to us), and the “Sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”. And with God’s mighty armor we are… praying yat all times zin the Spirit, awith all prayer and supplication. To that end, [keeping] alert with all perseverance, making csupplication for all the saints, (all who boldly proclaim the mystery of the Gospel -verse 18&19). We also have Christ’s example in the wilderness (Luke 4:1-13) where we see Him fight temptation from Satan with faith and strength in the Word of God.
While I wouldn’t say Mrs. Allen’s weapons are unbiblical, I wonder why she doesn’t give us what Scripture says. Besides this there is the issue that Romans 8 verses 5-8 doesn’t talk about weapons we need to fight a spiritual battle with an enemy who presents us with negative thoughts.
She goes into how her friends helped her fight her spiritual battle with prayer and fasting, and then goes into another story on her daughter dealing with learning disabilities and the struggle she had in school. She uses this story to describe how we believe 3 fundamental lies: (play clip 11)
So notice first, where she got these lies: her counselor friend. I am worthless, I am helpless, and I am unlovable. Are these actually lies tho?
Now she presents and addresses these lies in her book. I went through these, I believe on episode, either 14 or 15, from Season 1 of Thoroughly Equipped. I basically showed how these are not really lies, and that Scripture explains our wretchedness and complete need for Christ in these things. So to answer that question you can check those episodes out.
This is why she is giving this message and not actually addressing the text. Because it will promote her book. I know that sounds presumptive of me, but why else has she NOT really addressed the Rom.8 text?
Right after this she gives an example of how a worry of hers is related to one of these lies.(Play clip 12)
I really appreciate that she points to Scripture saying it has answers when wrestling with these thoughts. But I wonder about her applications of the Scriptures in regards to wrestling with these thoughts. Is Scripture a resource we can go to combat negative thoughts with encouragements such as :”You are not helpless, you have the Holy Spirit, God equips you for every good work”, etc. The Scriptures also say we are helpless, it is God that works both in and through us to do good works, And that in our weakness or helplessness it is God who helps, He is our Helper, because we are helpless. She uses Scripture like these to combat the 3 lies in the exact same way. Notice also, WHO the emphasis is on when we tell ourselves “I am not helpless because I have the Holy Spirit. God equips ME for every good work”, etc. The emphasis is on ourselves and boosts ourselves. That’s the problem with taking verses like these, taken out of context, to recite to ourselves when we feel unconfident or helpless. Our confidence should rest on God. Meditating on His character, and the work He has done and is doing. Even the verse that she is using to combat the “lie” that she is helpless is saying that God is doing the equipping, that He prepared these works for us to do. The emphasis is on Him. It’s ok to memorize verses, I heartily encourage that. I would only urge women to understand why those verses are true and who they are really about. God.
So I might encourage women who wrestle with feeling helpless with this:
‘Yes, we are helpless, but God is our Helper, and He has given us the Holy Spirit to equip us for every good work that He prepared for us to walk in. Let us go to His word and trust that He will guide us, through the Holy Spirit unto wisdom in guiding our children. Not only this but let us appeal to God who can grant our children wisdom and understanding. May He be their great Helper as well.”
One way of using the Scriptures puts trust and glory in ourselves the other appeals to God and puts trust and gives all glory to him.
And that’s pretty much the end of her message.
Extremely subtle twists take place here as she describes “setting our minds on the things of the Spirit” as fighting the enemy who attacks us with negative thoughts. But that is not what Rom 8:5-8 is saying. The passage is making it clear that to set the mind on the Spirit is to pursue the things of God, Christ, the Gospel, and His law. She claims that it is the enemy that brings negative thoughts, or doubts; but that is not found in the romans text. This can draw people to believe that the problem is outside of themselves and not actually rooted in their sin or lack of faith, which is what Paul is addressing. She gives weapons to fight this “spiritual battle” with the enemy (which are very general weapons). She does not give the weapons laid out for us very clearly in Scripture. And while she encourages us to look to Scripture for truth, her encouragement is more self centered than God centered.
And that’s it for today’s episode. Out of 8 sessions from the IF:Gathering’s 2020 Conference we went through the first 2 portions of Rom.8, verses 1-4 with a message given by Jada Edwards and verse 5-8 with a message given by Jennie Allen. In the next episode we will look at Rom. 8:9-11 with a message given by the very popular speaker, Beth Moore; and verses 14-17 with a message given by Jo Saxon. We will again look at theses verses in context and examine how these speakers handle the text and who or what they preach about.
Until next time…I pray you are diving into ALL of Romans, as it is so theologically thick and rich. That you are examining your own sinful nature, how you were or are rebellious against a holy God and that you, by the grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit, were brought to repentance and trust in the finished work of CHrist. I pray that you see Christ given to you through the epistle of Romans as your only hope and the greatest display of God’s gift of love for you. And that if you know Christ, you are once again reminded of this Gospel and walk in the glory of it today and everyday forward. And if you don’t know it, that you do.
I pray…you are in His word.
MelbaToast
George Whitfeild: The knowledge of Jesus Christ is the Best Knowledge
GREETINGS: Hello Ladies! Thank you so much for tuning in today! If you are new to this podcast, welcome. So glad you found this podcast.
We are currently in a critique series on the very popular Christian women's conference the IF:Gathering.
In the last episode we looked at the popular recurring speakers at the conference. I laid out a sort of litmus test to help us determine how well the speakers were willing to follow clear commands from God on women’s roles in church ministry, whether they identified themselves as “Pastors”, whether they taught and preached over men, and if they aligned themselves up with known false teachers or false teaching. The goal in me drawing all this information out was to not only to help you guys have a test to help you determine who you should be willing to put yourselves under, but to also make us think more about how putting ourselves under women who have no qualms about being disobedient to God’s word becomes a bad example to other women. If women can or should transgress the clear directives that the pastoral role is to be fulfilled by a man and/or these women align themselves with false teachers, then they do not display in their lives that ALL of God’s word is to be obeyed. If they can get away with disobedience in this area, what other commands can we get away with? It is a slippery slope, ladies. I do not want to be one that encourages these women to continue in their disobedience, and neither do I want to encourage you for I would then be encouraging women to sin and it would be better for me to have a millstone around my neck and to be thrown into the sea (Mark 9:42) than to do that.
Now in the first episode of this critique series I looked at the purpose of the conference as stated from their own website. In that episode we had a chance to think about what discipleship was and what women making disciples looked like in a very broad way. Basically that to make disciples, our job AS disciples is to help and encourage others to be like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And to accomplish that we have to be in Scripture to get to know Him, and His commands.
This episode has a twofold purpose. It relates back to the first episode of the series as it is along the lines of HOW we make disciples of Christ, and it is a beautifully laid out case by George Whitfield on WHY the knowledge of Christ is the best knowledge. Basically, why we should all determine to know Christ and nothing else.
So let’s just dive in shall we?
Before I read Whilfield’s commentary I want to read 1 Corinthians 2:2 in context so you can see why Paul makes this statement. So I’m going to start back in 1 Corin. Chapter 1 verse 20 and read all the way to chapter 2 verse 5.
gWhere is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? hHas not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For iJews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ kthe power of God and lthe wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: mnot many of you were wise according to worldly standards,3 not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But nGod chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; oGod chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even pthings that are not, to qbring to nothing things that are, 29 so rthat no human being4 might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him5 you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us swisdom from God, trighteousness and usanctification and vredemption, 31 so that, as it is written, w“Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.
2 And I, when I came to you, brothers,1 xdid not come proclaiming to you ythe testimony2 of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except zJesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And aI was with you bin weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of cthe Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men3 but din the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:2, “I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
The persons to whom these words were written, were the members of the church of Corinth; who, as appears by the foregoing chapter, were not only divided into different sects, by one saying, “I am of Paul, and another, I am of Apollos;” but also had man amongst them, who were so full of the wisdom of this world, and so wise in their own eyes, that they set at nought the simplicity of the gospel, and accounted the Apostles preaching foolishness.
Never had the Apostle more need of the wisdom of the serpent, mingled with the innocency of the dove, than now. What is the sum of all his wisdom? He tells them, in the words of the text, “I determined not to know anything amongst you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.”
A resolution this, worthy of the great St. Paul; and no less worthy, no less necessary for every minister, and every disciple of Christ, to make always, even unto the end of the world.
In the following discourse, I shall first, explain what is meant by “not knowing anything, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
Secondly, give some reasons why every Christian should determine not to know anything else. And thirdly, conclude with a general exhortation to put this determination into practice.
First, I am to explain what is meant by “not knowing anything, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
By Jesus Christ, we are to understand the eternal Son of God. He is called Jesus, a Savior, because he was to save us from the guilt and power of our sins; and, like Joshua, by whom he was remarkably typified, to lead God's spiritual Israel through the wilderness of this world, to the heavenly Canaan, the promised inheritance of the children of God.
He is called Christ, which signifies anointed, because he was anointed by the Holy Ghost at his baptism, to be a prophet to instruct, a priest to make an atonement for, and a king to govern and protect his church. And he was crucified, or hung (O stupendous love!) till he was dead upon the cross, that he might become a curse for us: for it is written, “Cursed is every man that hangeth upon a tree.”
The foundation or first cause of his suffering, was our fall in Adam; in whom, as the living oracles of God declare, “We all died;” his sin was imputed to us all. It pleased God, after he had spoken the world into being, to create man after his own divine image, to breathe into him the breath of life, and to place him as our representative in the garden of Eden.
But he being left to his own free will, did eat of the forbidden fruit, notwithstanding God had told him, “The day in which he eat thereof, he should surely die;” and thereby he, with his whole posterity, in whose name he acted, became liable to the wrath of God, and sunk into a spiritual death.
But behold the goodness, as well as the severity of God! For no sooner had man been convicted as a sinner, but lo! A Savior is revealed to him, under the character of the seed of the woman: the merits of whose sacrifice were then immediately to take place, and who should, in the fullness of time, by suffering death, satisfy for the guilt we had contracted; by obeying the whole moral law, work out for us an everlasting righteousness; and by becoming a principle of new life in us, destroy the power of the devil, and thereby restore us to a better state than that in which we were at first created.
This is the plain scriptural account of that mystery of godliness, God manifested in the flesh; and to this our own hearts, unless blinded by the god of this world, cannot but yield an immediate assent.
For, let us but search our own hearts, and ask ourselves, if we could create our own children, whether or not we would not create them with a less mixture of good and evil, than we find in ourselves? Supposing God then only to have our goodness, he could not, at first, make us so sinful, so polluted as we are. But supposing him to be as he is, infinitely good, or goodness itself, then it is absolutely impossible that he should create any thing but what is like himself, perfect, entire, lacking nothing. Man then could not come out of the hands of his Maker, so miserably blind and naked, with such a mixture of the beast and devil, as he finds now in himself, but must have fallen from what he was; and as it does not suit with the goodness and justness of God, to punish the whole race of mankind with these disorders merely for nothing; and since men bring these disorders into the world with them; it follows, that as they could not sin themselves, being yet unborn, some other man's sin must have been imputed to them; from whence, as from a fountain, all these evils flow.
I know this doctrine of our original sin, or fall in Adam, is esteemed foolishness by the wise disputer of this world, who will reply, How does it suit the goodness of God, to impute one man's sin to an innocent posterity? But has it not been proved to a demonstration, that it is so? And therefore, supposing we cannot reconcile it to our shallow comprehensions, that is no argument at all: for if it appears that God has done a thing, we may be sure it is right, whether we can see the reasons for it or not.
But this is entirely cleared up by what was said before, that no sooner was the sin imputed, but a Christ was revealed; and this Christ, this God incarnate, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, that he might be freed from the guilt of our original sin; who was born of the Virgin Mary, that he might be the seed of the woman only; who suffered under Pontius Pilate, a Gentile governor, to fulfill these prophecies, which signified what death he should die: This same Jesus, who was crucified in weakness, but raised in power, is that divine person, that Emmanuel, that God with us, whom we preach, in whom ye believe, and whom alone the Apostle, in the text, was determined to know.
By which word know, we are not to understand a bare historical knowledge; for to know that Christ was crucified by his enemies at Jerusalem, in this manner only, will do us no more service, than to know that Caesar was butchered by his friends at Rome; but the work know, means to know, so as to approve of him; as when Christ says, “Verily, I know you not;” I know you not, so as to approve of you. It signifies to know him, so as to embrace him in all his offices; to take him to be our prophet, priest, and king; so as to give up ourselves wholly to be instructed, saved, and governed by him. It implies an experimental knowledge of his crucifixion, so as to feel the power of it, and to be crucified unto the world, as the Apostle explains himself in the epistle to the Philippians, where he says, “I count all things but dung and dross, that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection.”
This knowledge the Apostle was so swallowed up in, that he was determined not to know anything else; he was resolved to make that his only study, the governing principle of his life, the point and end in which all his thoughts, words, and actions, should center.
Secondly, I pass on to give some reasons why every Christian should, with the Apostle, determine “not to know anything, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
First, Without this, our persons will not be accepted in the sight of God. “This,” (and consequently this only) “is life eternal, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.” As also St. Peter says, “There is now no other name given under heaven, whereby we can be saved, but that of Jesus Christ.”
Some, indeed, may please themselves in knowing the world, others boast themselves in the knowledge of a multitude of languages; but could we speak with the tongue of men and angels, or did we know the number of the stars, and could call them all by their names, yet, without this experimental knowledge of Jesus Christ, and him crucified, it would profit us nothing.
The former, indeed, may procure us a little honor, which cometh of man; but the latter only can render us acceptable in the sight of God: for, if we are ignorant of Christ, God will be to us a consuming fire.
Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; “No one cometh to the Father, but through him;” “He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;” and none ever were, or ever will be received up into glory, but by an experimental application of his merits to their hearts.
We might as well think to rebuild the tower of Babel, or reach heaven with our hands, as to imagine we could enter therein by any other door, than that of the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Other knowledge may make you wise in your own eyes, and puff you up; but this alone edifieth, and maketh wise unto salvation.
As the meanest Christian, if he knows but this, though he know nothing else, will be accepted; so the greatest master in Israel, the most letter-learned teacher, without this, will be rejected. His philosophy is mere nonsense, his wisdom mere foolishness in the sight of God.
The author of the word now before us, was a remarkable instance of this; never, perhaps, was a greater scholar, in all what the world calls fine learning, than he: for he was bred up at the feet of Gamaliel, and profited in the knowledge of books, as well as in the Jewish religion, above many of his equals, as appears by the language, rhetoric, and spirit of his writings; and yet, when he came to know what it was to be a Christian, “He accounted all things but loss, so he might win Christ.” And, though he was now at Corinth, that seat of polite learning, yet he was absolutely determined not to know anything, or to make nothing his study, but what taught Him to know Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
Hence then, appears the folly of those who spend their whole lives in heaping up other knowledge; and, instead of searching the scriptures, which testify of Jesus Christ, and are alone able to make them wise unto salvation, disquiet themselves in a pursuit after the knowledge of such things, as when known, concern them no more, than to know that a bird dropped a feather upon one of the Pyrenean mountains.
Hence it is, that so many, who profess themselves wise, because they can dispute of the causes and effects, the moral fitness and unfitness of things, appear mere fools in the things of God; so that when you come to converse with them about the great work of redemption wrought out for us by Jesus Christ, and of his being a propitiation for our sins, a fulfiller of the covenant of works, and a principle of new life to our souls, they are quite ignorant of the whole matter; and prove, to a demonstration, that, with all their learning, they know nothing yet, as they ought to know.
But, alas! how must it surprise a man, when the Most High is about to take away his soul, to think that he has passed for a wise-man, and a learned disputer in this world, and yet is left destitute of that knowledge which alone can make him appear with boldness before the judgment-seat of Jesus Christ? How must it grieve him, in a future state, to see others, whom he despised as illiterate men, because they experimentally knew Christ, and him crucified, exalted to the right-hand of God; and himself, with all his fine accomplishments, because he knew everything, perhaps, but Christ, thrust down into hell?
Well might the Apostle, in a holy triumph, cry out, “Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world?” For, God will then make foolish the wisdom of this world, and bring to nought the wisdom of those who were so knowing in their own eyes.
I have made this digression from the main point before us, not to condemn or decry human literature, but to show, that it ought to be used only in subordination to divine; and that a Christian, if the Holy Spirit guided the pen of the Apostle, when he wrote this epistle, ought to study no books, but such as lead him to a farther knowledge of Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And there is the more reason for this, because of the great mischief the contrary practice has done to the church of God: for, what was it but this learning, or rather this ignorance, that kept so many of the Scribes and Pharisees from the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ? And what is it, but this human wisdom, this science, false so called, that blinds the understanding, and corrupts the hearts of so many modern unbelievers, and makes them unwilling to submit to the righteousness which is of God by faith in Christ Jesus? But,
Secondly, without this knowledge our performances, as well as persons will not be acceptable in the sight of God.
“Through faith,”says the Apostle, that is, through a lively faith in a Mediator to come, “Abel offered a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain.” And it is through a like faith, or an experimental knowledge of the same divine Mediator, that our sacrifices of prayer, praise, and thanksgivings, come up as an incense before the throne of grace.
Two persons may go up to the temple to pray; but he only will return home justified, who, in the language of our collects, sincerely offers up his prayers through Jesus Christ our Lord.
For it is this great atonement, this all-sufficient sacrifice, which alone can give us boldness to approach with our prayers to the Holy of Holies: and he that presumes to go without this, acts Korah's crime over again; offers unto God strange fire, and, consequently, will be rejected by him.
Farther, as our devotions to God will not, so neither, without this knowledge of Jesus Christ, will our acts of charity to men be accepted by him. For did we give all our goods to feed the poor, and yet were destitute of this knowledge, it would profit us nothing.
This our blessed Lord himself intimates in the 25th of Matthew, where he tells those who had been rich in good works, “That inasmuch as they did it unto one of the least of his brethren, they did it unto him.” From whence we may plainly infer, that it is seeing Christ in his members, and doing good to them out of an experimental knowledge of his love to us, that alone will render our alms-deeds rewardable at the last day.
Lastly, As neither our acts of piety nor charity, so neither will our civil nor moral actions be acceptable to God, without this experimental knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Our modern pretenders to reason, indeed, set up another principle to act from; they talk, I know not what, Of doing moral and civil duties of life, from the moral fitness and unfitness of things. But such men are blind, however they may pretend to see; and going thus about to establish their own righteousness, are utterly ignorant of the righteousness which is of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For though we grant that morality is a substantial part of Christianity, and that Christ came not to destroy, or take off the moral law, as a rule of action, but to explain, and so fulfill it; yet we affirm, that our moral and civil actions are now no farther acceptable in the sight of God the Father, than as they proceed from the principle of a new nature, and as experimental knowledge of, or vital faith in his dear Son.
The death of Jesus Christ has turned our whole lives into one continued sacrifice; and whether we eat or drink, whether we pray to God, or do any thing to man, it must all be done out of a love for, and knowledge of him who died and rose again, to render all, even our most ordinary deeds, acceptable in the sight of God.
If we live by this principle, if Christ be the Alpha and Omega of all our actions, then our least are acceptable sacrifices; but if this principle be wanting, our most pompous services avail nothing: we are but spiritual idolater; we sacrifice to our own net; we make an idol of ourselves, by making ourselves, and not Christ, the end of our actions: and, therefore, such actions are so far from being accepted by God, that, according to the language of one of the Articles of our Church, “We doubt not but they have the nature of sin, because they spring not from an experimental faith in, and knowledge of Jesus Christ.”
Were we not fallen creatures, we might then act, perhaps, from other principles; but since we are fallen from God in Adam, and are restored again only by the obedience and death of Jesus Christ, the face of things are entirely changed, and all we think, speak, or do, is only accepted in and through him.
Justly, therefore, may I, in the
Third and Last places, Exhort you to put the Apostle's resolution in practice, and beseech you, with him to determine, “Not to know any thing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
I say, determine; for unless you sit down first, and count the cost, and from a well-grounded conviction of the excellency of this,above all other knowledge whatsoever, resolve to make this your chief study, your only end, your one thing needful, every frivolous temptation will draw you aside from the pursuit after it.
Your friends and carnal acquaintance, and, above all, your grand adversary the devil, will be persuading you to determine not to know any thing, but how to lay up goods for many years, and to get a knowledge and taste of the pomps and vanities of this wicked world; but do you determine not to follow, or be led by them; and the more they persuade you to know other things, the more do you “determine not to know any thing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” For, this knowledge never faileth; but whether they be riches, they shall fail; whether they be pomps, they shall cease; whether they be vanities, they shall fade away: but the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and him crucified, abideth for ever.
Whatever, therefore, you are ignorant of, be not ignorant of this. If you know Christ, and him crucified, you know enough to make you happy, supposing you know nothing else; and without this, all your other knowledge cannot keep you from being everlastingly miserable.
Value not then, the contempt of friends, which you must necessarily meet with upon your open profession to act according to this determination. For your Master, whose you are, was despised before you; and all that will know nothing else but Jesus Christ, and him crucified, must, in some degree or other, suffer persecution.
It is necessary that offenses should come, to try what is in our hearts, and whether we will be faithful soldiers of Jesus Christ or not.
Dare ye then to confess our blessed Master before men, and to shine as lights in the world, amidst a crooked and perverse generation? Let us not be content with following him afar off; for then we shall, as Peter did, soon deny him; but let us be altogether Christians, and let our speech, and all our actions declare to the world whose disciples we are, and that we have indeed “determined not to know any thing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” Then, well will it be with us, and happy, unspeakably happy shall we be, even here; and what is infinitely better, when others that despised us, shall be calling for the mountains to fall on them, and the hills to cover them, we shall be exalted to sit down on the right-hand of God, and shine as the sun in the firmament, in the kingdom of our most adorable Redeemer, for ever and ever.
Which God of his infinite mercy grant, &c.
Well, ladies, I hope this commentary by George Whitfield has blessed you and encouraged you to determine to know Christ as the best knowledge. And if you are curious about the clip I played in the beginning of this episode, that was from a sermon by John Macarthur from Grace Community Church titled The Foolishness of God, part 3 where Dr MacAthur exegete the very text which I read earlier in this episode. That even in the end, all we know of nature, philosophies, psychologies, sociologies, any of the world’s knowledge and sciences do not save or bring us to right relationship with God. They do not save us from the coming wrath of God. Christ does. They do not bring us into eternity, Christ does. They do not give eternal life, Christ does. They do not sanctify, Christ does. And they do not display the unbelievable love that God has for his people, Christ shows us that. Christ is truly the best knowledge.
And because this is true…I pray you are in His word.
MelbaToast
Speakers IF:Gathering
Greetings:
Welcome back Ladies to another episode! Thank you for joining me today. I’m just gonna dive into this episode cause we got a lot to cover.
Introduction:
In the first episode of this critique series I discussed a little about what women's ministry is, its purpose, and its teaching with the goal of looking more in depth at women’s conferences. I wanted to lay a foundation for these next couple of episodes as we tackle looking at the very popular women's conference, If:Gathering.
Ladies, this has been, by far, the most intensive look into the conference, the purpose, the founder, the speakers, and the teachings that I have ever had the wherewithal to study. There are ladies such as Michelle Lesley, Amy Spreeman, and Elisabeth Prata, that have looked into the speakers of the conference, but I felt it was necessary to really dive into this. So I literally watched the last 3 years of conference sessions and purchased an all access pass to this year's conference. That is a total of 33 estimated hours of conference messages (I did not watch some of the ministry promo, individual testimonies, and worship videos that were included in the conference). Just to give you an idea, this year's conference was only 8 hours and 45 min long, that was with attending one breakout session. Tack on the other breakout sessions that I had access to, and you have an estimated total of 14 hours for this year’s conference alone.
It didn’t stop there ladies. I then took time to look into the popular, recurring teachers that speak at this conference. Especially those that had spoken for 3 years in a row. I did add some speakers that have spoken for less than that but who are very popular in the evangelical sphere of women’s ministry. I wanted to look at the way they handled Scripture and their influence as women leaders in Evangelicalism today.
This is what we are going to dive into today. The speakers.
To start I want to lay out for you a couple of important biblical truths about women in ministry. It’s very important that we learn these truths and be willing to stand on the word of God. See, God, through the Apostle Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit gives an ample warning to the Church in the last days that false teachers coming out of the church will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:30 . This is very important. That men, yes, AND women, will come out of the church and draw people away from Christ to make disciples of themselves. They don’t leave the church, ladies, they are within the visible church, speaking about themselves, and training you in what they have learned, making you like them. To draw you away from actually learning about Christ by using His name but never really teaching Him. He is not their authority. Their own imaginations, desires, philosophies, and ideologies are their master, for if Christ was their master then the Scripture would be taught.
This is the ultimate deception.
There are, however, ways to identify whether any woman in church ministry has placed themselves under the authority of Christ. These are our litmus tests to judge whether we should be putting ourselves under their teachings.
- Do these women hold that ALL of Scripture is authoritative? Do they obey clear teaching to women about their roles in the Church community? Do they call themselves Pastors? Do they preach/teach over men in their own local church or any local church for that matter?
Yes, ladies. We must be true to the word of God.
God, knowing the end from the beginning and determining that His word would not return void, and that it is the means by which we are equipped, instructs His church to not allow women to have authority or teach over men (1 Tim.2:12). I will be devoting an episode to discussing this topic, looking over the Scripture and addressing the common arguments for and against women quote-unquote pastors, but for now it is enough to trust the word, that is very clear on this issue. Delivering a message to both male and female congregants within the local church body is to teach them. Whatever the topic. And note that I am very specific to say the “Church body”. If a woman calls herself a pastor, or if she holds a different title yet teaches to men in the church body, she is in direct violation of this instruction given to us by God.
The church is the institution given by God to train up His people to be like Christ. And within the Church body He grants certain roles to have authority by which the people in those roles are to teach, train, and shepherd the flock of God. Elders/Pastors are given that authority. And in that role, one of the ways they exercise that Authority is the preaching of sermons. The preaching and expositing of the Scriptures are not only to be handled correctly, but to have authority over us, and we as His children are to place ourselves under the teaching and training of these sermons.
I want us to understand this, because, even if any of these women do not call themselves Pastors, but are still willing to give a message on Sunday to a mixed gender congregation, she is setting herself up to have some authority by doing this.
This test reveals to us whether she has a heart that is willing to submit to God in this matter. And believe me, if she teaches to men and women in this manner in her local congregation, how can she train the younger “Wives, [to] submit to [their] own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.-Ephesians 5:22-24 . Do you see? The relationship between the ecclesiastical institution of the Church of God and its head, Christ, is to be an example to its people instructing us on the relationship between a man and women in the institution of headship in marriage. If we undermine the male given authority in the church institution it will have consequences on the male given headship and female given submission in marriage.
- Do these women associate with known false teachers?
One of the most intriguing letters in the Bible is a letter written by John to an unnamed lady in the church. In 2nd John we have John instructing this woman to walk in the truth and separate herself and those in her home (which meant the local church which gathered at her home) from false teachers. Watch yourselves, …John says…so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. (2nd John 8-11)
Any one who does not ABIDE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST. These are people who instead of remaining in the teachings we have in Scripture, teachings that are so deep and profound, and may take eternity to delve into, decide to go off into their own teachings and ideas, even some who go so far as denying Christ.
Do these women associate or promote other speakers, who teach doctrines that contradict or are not found in Scripture? Again, do they associate or promote women who write and teach themselves or their own philosophies, instead of Christ? Do they promote women who twist Scripture?
- That is test #3. How do they handle Scripture?
From beginning to end the Scriptures are about God’s saving grace through Christ. After Christ’s resurrection, on the road to Emmaus, Jesus … beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, explained to [to 2 of ]His disciples what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:27. The Old Testament is just that... a testament to the faithfulness of God. It is His revealed word over the Old Testament period on the coming Messiah. The New Testament is the testament of that Messiah’s arrival, His life, and His teachings to His people.
Do they draw out the teaching of Christ from the text in the context of the scripture? Or do they start with a topic and pull out verses to support their topic? Do they read a section of Scripture, go into the history, and draw out Christ and application of it for sanctification? Do they give both law and Gospel? Or do they take the text and make it about you, how to overcome your Goliath, or how to roll away the boulders in your life? Do they somehow make every text about your purpose, your faith, your strength, and how much God just really loves you?
With these 3 tests we can determine if any woman speaker/teacher is one who submits to God’s word. Today we will look at the more popular teachers from the If:gathering Conference. We will look first at whether they call themselves pastors, teach over men, and associate and promote false teachers.
In the following episode we will look at the teachings coming out of the conferences over the past years to see how they handled Scripture and who they taught.
Jennie Allen:
Founder and visionary leader of the If:Gathering she is also a New York Times best selling Author. Her titles "Nothing to Prove", "Get out of Your Head", and her newest release "Find Your People"; all labeled as "Bible Studies". She has spoken at "The Porch" Conference, Liberty University's Convocation and is the host of the podcast show titled "Made for This".
Jennie Allen, does not call herself a preacher, but has alluded to "preaching" at conferences. She does however call herself a Bible Teacher, one who has gone to seminary.
(Small clip of her talking about her studies in resolving the downward spiral of our thoughts)
Her conference messages have been centered on the idea that our current battle is a battle for the mind. She relays how the "enemy" is set to destroying our thought spirals by bombarding us with lies. To conquer time in her life which she describes as dark and full of lies from the enemy, she decides to attack the lies with research and God's word.
If you have not listened to my critique on her "bible Study" titled "Get Out of Your Head" you should go back and listen to those episodes from season one. I go through the study, highlighting what I thought was good and bad in her study. For this episode I will mention that, while I am very eager for any women to break open their Bible and study it, I am extremely weary of HOW that study guide handles the text, and what (if any) additional philosophy or sciences are brought into the guide to make the Scripture more relevant. In Jennie Allen's case she includes such sciences as positive psychology along with Scripture to help you get out of your head so to speak. This undermines the sufficiency of Scripture and Christ by that means, to sanctify our thought patterns. In that critique I try to show you that the more we study Scripture, and especially Christ, the more our thought patterns will be conformed to Him.
A Bible study that draws out of the text, and in this case the study of Philippians, would not only be handling the Scripture correctly, but would also draw us closer to Christ. Jennie Allen, instead of drawing out from the text, infers or puts in the text a more modern psychological idea, merging a worldly science with Scripture. This is called syncretism, and is a form of Liberalism, that has at it's foundation the underlying belief that Scripture is not Authoritative on it's own (we need other authoritative tools) AND not Sufficient on it's own to sanctify God's people.
Christine Caine:
Is an Australian activist. Evangelist, author, and international speaker. She is most known for her founding of the non-profit organization The A21 Campaign which combats human trafficking.
In 2015, Caine founded the Propel Women organization whose goal is to empower women for Christian living. She has authored titles such as A Life Unleashed, Run to Win, Can I have and Do it All, Please?, The Core Issue, Undaunted, Unstoppable, Unashamed, Unshakable, and Unexpected. Her most recent release is titled How Did I Get Here?
She has been featured on many international television shows such as TBN’s Praise the Lord, Better Together, Joyce Meyer’s Enjoying Everyday Life, and many others. In Oct. of 2016 TBN launched a show featuring Caine called Equip & Empower with Christine Caine.
There are numerous instances of Christine speaking (she calls the sermons) at churches all over the globe. She is a common guest speaker at Elevation Church in Charlotte, NC, Bill Johnson’s Church Bethel Church in Redding, CA; and many campuses connect with Brian Huston’s Hillsong Church. All of these churches repeatedly teach a word of faith, health and wealth gospel. And some of this has seeped through her “sermons” as she has made statements in regards to faith “activating” God to work in and through us.
She connects herself with what is called Zoe Churches, a ministry centered on reaching and influencing European [cities] “... by building a Christ-centered, Bible-based church, changing mindsets and empowering people to lead and impact in every sphere of life.” (christinecaine.com) I say this because I haven’t been able to determine her exact involvement in this ministry and if there is any connection to Zoe Church in Los Angeles, Ca. But regardless, she has no problem connecting herself with a ministry that purposely plants churches by couple pastors, husband and wife pastors.
She has twisted Scripture in her “sermons”, promotes and aligns herself with false word of faith teachers such as Joyce Meyer, and promotes and encourages women and men to transgress God’s word by encouraging “couples” to be pastors and plant and lead churches in Europe through Zoe Churches.
Jada Edwards:
Wife to Dr. Conway Edwards, lead pastor of One Community Church, one of the fastest growing churches in Plano, TX, Jada Edwards is Creative Art Director for the church and every once in a while gives a message to the whole congregation (spread over several campuses) on Sunday mornings.
In one of her more recent sermons, titled “The Church, A Higher Calling” (posted to YouTube back in October of 2021), she goes about instructing the congregation on who the church is and how the church should get in alignment with Christ.
Now I have to say, that I listened to the whole sermon, and thought she even handled scripture very well, and really hammered in the Lordship of Christ, but that doesn’t make her teaching and training men, even if she is under the authority of elders in her church, it doesn’t make it ok. You can be a brilliant speaker/teacher and even handle Scripture well, it would still be done in disobedience to God’s clear word that women are not to teach or hold authority over men.
I want to be very cautious here. Cause I tell you, I like Mrs. Edwards. I wouldn’t even go so far to say she’s a false teacher, but I would say that because she preaches to men, she is undermining the authority of Scripture. I don’t know if she realizes that while her words exalt Christ, her actions undermine His clear teaching in 1 Timothy 2.
Sadie Robertson Huff:
Is an American and business woman who rose to fame from her appearance on the A&E reality program known as Duck Dynasty. She also is known for being runner up on season 19 of ABC’s Dancing With The Stars. She is host of the podcast “Whoa, That’s Good Podcast” as well as a New York Times best selling author of the book “Live Original” from which came a devotional of the same title as well as a sequel to Live Original titled Live Fearless. In 2020 she released Live: Remain Alive, Be Alive at a Specific Time, Have an Exciting or Fulfilling Life. In 2021 she released Live on Purpose: 100 devotional for letting go of fear and letting God. In 2022 she presented her most recent book titled Who areYou Following?: Pursuing Jesus in a Social-Media Obsessed World.
“My passion is to speak, to write, to encourage,” Robertson proclaims on her website. How does she accomplish this passion? Through not only her books, but her social media presence (as she has 5 million followers) as well as through her Live Original Tour which reached 16-cities, and Youtube channel which has 537 thousand subscribers as of March 2022.
It is in her YouTube channel that describes her as “preaching” giving messages and sermons to various churches and conferences. She has spoken at the Passion Conference founded by Louie and Shelly Giglio. The Passion Conference has hosted speakers that have commonly twisted scripture out of context and gives very self centered semi- pelagian, purpose-driven sermons to young adults. (For quick information, Pelagius was a man who taught that man was good in nature and had the ability to come to God by his own will. Semi-pelagian doctrine presupposes that people are born good and are actually searching for God (this is contrary to Scriptural doctrine found in Romans and Colossians) and we merely need to “choose” Christ through our own will and Christ will do the rest.
Along with preaching and giving sermons to various churches revealing her unwillingness to submit to Scripture, Mrs. Huff has had psychiatrists on her show to give practical steps we can take to live happier lives promoting the idea that being happy can lead us to a better relationship with God. (This type of teaching emphasizes feeling as determining a right relationship with God instead of Christ fulfilling all we need to be made right with God regardless of how we feel). For more on how I believe Psychiatry undermines the sufficiency of Christ and His word as given to us in Scripture to train the man of God in righteousness, check out season 1 episodes titled 2 Opposing Doctrines: Man’s wisdom of Positive Psychology vs God’s Wisdom. At the minimum, this reveals a lack of trust in God’s word in being all we need for life, godliness and right living ( 2 Pet. 1:3; 2 Tim.3:16-17; Psalm 19; 119)
Jamie Ivey:
Is the author of the books You Be You, a 7 week marriage study titled Complement, a sort of autobiography titled If Your Only Knew: My Unlikely, Unavoidable Story of Becoming Free, a 6 week course Titled: Your Story Matters discussing how our story can change the world, and host of the podcast The Happy Hour with Jamie Ivey.
There are no records of her speaking at churches over a mixed congregation, nor does she call herself a pastor.
She has interviewed the typical evangelical stars of today, Beth Moore, Russell Moore, Francis Chan, Lauren Chandler, etc. And because of this there are certain teachings and doctrines that I find to be unbiblical, but I would not necessarily qualify her work as unsubmissive to Scripture, but more of superficial in depth and centered on social/worldly issues instead of deep and theological in nature. Because of this there is a tendency to become more concerned with the world's concern than with seeking after the kingdom of God through Christ. But it is an interviewing type of show and so it can be limited into more personal experiences than biblical teachings.
Latasha Morrison:
Is a speaker, author, and “reconciler. Bridge-builder and leader, committed to educate people on cultural intelligence and racial literacy” (latashamorrison.com). She is founder of Be the Bridge, an organization with the goal to “ encourage racial reconciliation among all ethnicities, to promote racial unity in America, and to equip others to do the same” (latashamorrison.com). She is known as a Certified Trainer in Cultural Intelligence and Unconscious Bias. This organization works with large and small companies as well churches and nonprofits.
I am very uninformed on what type of training and education goes into becoming a trainer in Cultural Intelligence and Unconscious Bias. But I wonder, what type of literature and teaching helps one become culturally intelligent? Isn’t God’s word perfect wisdom from which we can learn what is good and what is evil and therefore conclude what is culturally intelligent and culturally unintelligent? And isn’t God’s word so powerful that it …is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(Heb. 4:12)? God’s word reveals where we are biased, it shines light on it so that it would no longer be unconscious but now at the very forefront of our mind, bringing it into our consciousness, calling us to repent where we sinned in this. I am curious how reliant she is on Scripture to guide one into true reconciliation or whether she has relied upon man’s wisdom as well as Scripture.
She authored a book titled, Be the Bridge: Pursuing God’s Heart for Racial Reconciliation, where she gives a “clarion call for Christians to move toward relationship and deeper understanding in the midst of a diverse culture” ( that was from the book’s information on Christianbook.com). To hear a very thorough critique on that book you can go to the YouTube channel Conversations That Matter where host Jon Harris very lovingly and truthfully goes through her teachings expressed in the book.
Mrs. Morrison has taught over a mixed congregation at Mark Batterson’s National Community Church (which has multiple campuses in the Washington, D.C. and Virginia areas) as a guest speaker for a series titled “Peacemakers”
Bianca Olthoff:
Has been a speaker at the If:Gathering for at least the last 4 years consecutively. Author of the book titled “How to Have Your Life Not Suck”, as well creator of the non-profit organization In The Name of Love, Bianca Olthoff is an incredibly engaging speaker. She is incredibly enthusiastic and really knows how to draw her audience into her messages. On her website she gives topical devotional messages derived from Scripture verses (short verses, mind you). Now this is called proof texting. The method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing. And while there is a right method that can be beneficial when proof texting it is very common for devotionals to give the wrong method. For example taking historical text, and reading ourselves into it. Such teaching of historical texts makes you David and Goliath your problems. Another example could be taking a historical narrative and and applying it as it is normative (something we should expect or see on a regular basis). Bianca Olthoff, more than not, uses an inappropriate method of proof-texting when coming to her messages and devotions.
Mrs Olthoff also has no qualms over preaching and teaching, nor any issues with calling herself a pastor over a males in a mixed audience at her and her husband’s church The Father’s House located in Orange County CA. Her most recent “sermon” was on Conflict Resolution in a series on relationships titled: Rated R.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Mrs. Perry is a poet, writer and hip hop artist from ST. Lois, Missouri. While Perry is known for her spoken word pieces such as “ My Life as Stud”. “A Poem About Weed, and “Jig-a Boo”, what she is most known for is her testimony from a lesbian lifestyle to Christian lifestyle. Her work combatsr the belief that God cannot change the desires of a human especially in the Gay and Lesbian community, and in this case, has a very necessary ministy and word needed for our day and age.
Her writings include the book titled: Gay Girl, Good God: The Story of Who I was and Who God has Always Been, Jude: Contending for the Faith, and Holier Than Thou: How God’s Holiness Helps Us Trust Him.
Mrs. Perry has preached a Sunday morning service at Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago, as well as spoken to several co-ed conferences. She has yoked herself to other women who proudly call themselves pastors (such as Nona Jones, Oneka McClellan, and Sarah Jakes Roberts- daughter of modalist and prosperity heretic T.D. Jakes ( another quick side not here for those who don’t know the modalist heresy- it is the belief that God is one God and only displays himself in 3 forms, sometimes as the father, some times as the Son, and sometimes as the holy Spirit, this is in direct contrast to the historical Christian view that God is one who eternally exists in 3 distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.)
In Jackie’s early ministry, I was very blessed by her teachings. I thought she really pushed the supremacy of Christ, the Glory of God, and exaltation of God’s word when she taught. Over time, however, I have been troubled to see her connections with those that do not hold Scripture up as all we need for life and godliness, and in more recent years her words and teachings show a lack of trust that Scripture is sufficient to guide us into godly reconciliation, she relies on worldly sociological tools to help her read God’s word. These should not be mixed.
Jo Saxton:
Jo Saxton is an author, speaker, podcaster, and entrepreneurial coach. Born to Nigerian parents and raised in London, Jo brings a multicultural and international perspective to her leadership training for women. A sought-after speaker, Jo has a diverse calendar addressing universities, churches, national conferences, nonprofits, and corporations, including Q, Catalyst, Evereve, NoonDay Collection, LakeShore Media, and internationally in the U.K. and Australia. (josaxton.com).
Mrs. Saxton co-host a podcast titled Lead Stories with Pastor Steph O’Brien where they discuss “challenges and opportunities around leadership” with the goal of “encouraging their audience to step into their God given influence with courage and intentionality”. (josaxton.com)
She has authored several books such as: More Than Enchanting, The Dream of You, High Heels and Holiness. Her book Ready to Rise “tackles the real-life issues women face–workplace harassment, sexism, low self-esteem, financial woes, power battles, and old-wounds–while providing meaningful wisdom from Jo’s own journey to leadership” (josaxton.com).
In her own “about '' page on her website she informs us that she has led ministries, nonprofits and PASTORED and planted churches.
Now I am curious about this rise in training up women to be leaders. It’s become extremely popular in women’s ministry today and is especially promoted by almost all the speakers showcased at IF:Gathering. Somehow there is this idea that every woman is a leader. Words such as serve and submit and servant seem to have vanished from their vocabulary. I think I may do an episode into this type of teaching and mentality within the women’s ministry as I see so many “christian” women promote themselves as leaders, life-coaches, and social media influencers. But I digress…
So Jo Saxton also has been a guest preacher at Willow Creek Community Church, and City Life Church located in Melbourne, Australia preaching over both men and women at these churches.
She has also spoken at Vineyard Churches VNG Conference. Now the Association of Vineyard Churches is a neo charismatic evangelical denomination to which all Vineyard Churches are connected (much like how Assemblies of God are associated with each other). Vineyard Churches are connected through a movement started by John Wimber, rooted in the charismatic renewal that is associated with the “signs and wonders” movement, the “Toronto blessing”. And to be blunt, many many false teachings have come out of all of these movements and have influenced broader Evangelicalism today.
Ruth Chou Simmons:
Mrs. Simmon is a best selling and award winning author. Her titles include “GraceLaced”, “Beholding and Becoming” and “Foundations”. Her most recent book is titled “When Strivings Cease”. She is most known for her company GraceLaced, an art and lifestyle brand. I have to say that her work is quite beautiful.
I also appreciate the message she is trying to convey in her speeches and books. That we strive for self improvement without understanding the grace of God. In the first session of her Bible study “When Strivings Cease” she gives the Gospel and at least reads Scripture on our sin and God’s great mercy. Now I haven’t come across any videos of her speaking at churches on Sunday morning or even over Christian conferences for both males and females. There are videos, however, of her speaking at a conference at Oklahoma Baptist University with a mixed audience.
As I come to Scripture, I don’t want to add, where Scripture does not speak. So in this case, a woman speaking at a university, even a Christian University, I wouldn’t be so picky about. There may be something I am missing, and am willing to be corrected by Scripture on this point. It is when a woman comes into the House of God to, preach, teach, and supposedly give the Apostles teachings (Acts 2:42), and come under the authority of Scripture that the line most definitely must be drawn. God is clear that for the gathering of His people in devoting ourselves to the Apostle’s teaching, God has instituted that it be a man to give and hand down these teachings, a man is to be preaching.
So while I appreciate Mrs. Simmons teaching, and her (from what I can tell) submission to God’s word in the area of teaching over men, I do question her discernment. She, back in Feb. of 2021 appeared on the Jesus Calling podcast. I don’t think this necessarily means she supports or endorses the extra biblical revelation that Sarah Young gives in her writings and in this franchise in general. But it does expose at the least, that she hasn’t really thought about what Jesus Calling promotes. Now if you want more information in regards to the Jesus Calling franchise I did an series on this very popular devotional in season one. We look over and wrestle with the teachings in her devotional for teens as well as examine the beginnings of the Jesus Calling book itself from its introduction in the 2004 edition. We discuss what she describes as her conversion experience as well as looking at the subjective experiences she claims to have received. These episodes are worth checking out if you have questions on what doctrinal issues as well as what type of Christ is being given in these devotionals.
So like I said, there is a slight question of discernment on Ruth’s part.
Lysa Turkeurst:
In my research it looks as if Lysa has spoken at least the last 2 years of the conference. She is another very well know speaker as she is also a best selling author as well as the founder of Proverbs31 Ministries. Her book titles include “Forgiving What you Can’t Forget”, “It’s Not Supposed to be this Way”, “Finding I Am”, “Uninvited”, and “What Happens When Women Say Yes to God”. There are many more quote-unqoute Bible and book studies. Now I have done a thorough look at what she teaches in her booklet “Is God Speaking to Me?”. I take the time to look at what she teaches about hearing the voice of God and compare her teachings with Scriptures teaching to see if they match up. That series is in season one and is actually the first book critique series of Thoroughly Equipped.
Has Lysa preached over men in a church gathering? Yes. She has not only preached to a mixed gender audience at such churches like Embrace Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, she has spoken and attends a very questionable church: Elevation Church, pastored by Steven Furtick based in Charlotte, North Carolina. If you do not know, Elevation Church is extremely questionable (I’m using polite terms here) as there goal and formation of the church are very seeker sensitive oriented as well as some of the very questionable teachings given by Mr. Furtick are worth discerning as they are very self focused, and at times have been heretical to say the least.
Ms. Turkeurst offers her testimony on the Proverbs 31 website. Her written testimony is the common testimony found in evangelicalism today. The testimony of one realizing that God loves them. While it is true that God is a loving God, and I’m not against relaying to others the knowledge that God love us. It is inadequate at best, if we think that this is the whole of the good news. That God loves his people is seen through the historical life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And grasping and understanding this good news comes first from understanding the bad news. That we are sinners in the hand of an angry God, children of wrath. While Ms. Turkeurst identifies that she struggled with “not being enough”, the good news is not that God merely thinks you are enough, or that he just really loves you just as you are,, the good news is that though you and I are sinners and deserving of his wrath and punishment , he sent his Son to live a perfectly righteous life, yet take on all our sin so that He may take the full weight of God’s wrath upon Himself. Go to her testimony, and all of this witness, admission of her own sinful nature and the testimony of Jesus Christ is completely missing from it.
In this case, dealing with Lysa Turkeurst and my research into her, her actively teaching over men, association with Elevation, and mishandling of Scripture in her writings should make us question her discernment, as well as who she is teaching when she speaks.
Ann Voskamp:
Hailing from Canada, Ann Voskamp has been a speaker at the IF:Gathering for at least 4 years running. She is an author of 4 New York Times bestsellers titled “The Greatest Gift”, “Unwrapping the Greatest Gift: A Family Celebration of Christmas”, “The Broken Way”, and probably the most popular of her books “One Thousand Gifts”. She has been on the Today Show with Kathy Lee Gifford, had articles in ChristianityToday.com, WORLD Magazine and the HUffington Post.
While Ann, does not call herself a pastor, nor speaks at the Brethren Bible Chapel she attends; she has spoken at Saddleback Church, for their Christmas message back in Dec.2021 as well as Hillsong Church Australia, about 2 years ago. As a guest speaker she has given a sermon to both male and females in the congregation. She has been on the Better Together tv show, as well as the Life Today Show and Praise on TBN. She has connected and associated with other speakers such as Christine Caine, and Lisa Harper, Beth Moore, Lysa Turkeurst, and many more.
Her speaking and writing remind me of Rob Bell. Mysticism, emotionalism, and lots of questions without answers, lots of talk on brokenness, relaying her own experiences with tragedy, but never clear talk on sin. Talk of God being for us, but not much on being for us even despite our transgression against His holiness. Lot’s of talk about God working things out for our good but not much about our call to be like Christ and the call to holiness in our lives. There has been talk about the language she has used in her books, questionable language, such talk centered on the idea of “making love to God”. And yes, she means the making love as that form of interaction between a husband and a wife. These are red flags that many in the Christian community have rightly questioned.
CONCLUSION:
Now those were just some of the speakers that have appeared at the If:Gathering. I chose these specific teachers, not based on whether they preach or taught over men in the church congregation. I picked those who were either very popular, and/or had spoken at the conference for more than 2 years consecutively. After identifying the repeat speakers I then went through each one, looking at their ministries, books, websites, video messages, podcasts, and speaking engagements to determine if they passed the litmus test on whether they willingly submit themselves to God’s instruction to the role of women in church ministry as given in God’s word. As I have determined, some do, yet most don’t.
And here’s the next thought: that if they are not willing to submit to God’s directive to women in the church, that brings into question how they handle God’s word. If they ignore, excuse or make light of clear directives, how do they handle the rest of Scripture? If they don’t rely on it to instruct them in ministry work, how can they train others to look to God’s word for life and instruction into righteousness? More times than not, a woman who desires to dedicate what she deems as service/good works unto God (calling it Corban- set apart for God’s use) yet, rejects God’s very instructions given to his women, is a woman who wishes to draw disciples after themselves and NOT Christ (Act.20:30). For He is our Lord and He is to be obeyed.
Next episode I plan to read a great commentary by George Whitfield on why we should determine to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. I want to read this on an episode so you can contrast Witfield’s teaching on the importance of knowing and receiving Christ with the following episode where I will take you through some of the teaching that has been given in this conference. The goal is so you can learn how to discern WHO is being preached and taught so you can determine what type of disciples are being produced by these conferences. Are they disciples of Christ or disciples of IF:Gathering and the speakers of the conference?
So ladies, until next week, I pray that we remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
I pray, ladies, you are in His Word.
MelbaToast
Greetings:
Hello Ladies! Thank you for tuning in today, and if you are new to this podcast welcome!
I apologize to you guys cause I do try to get an episode out every week. And if you had listened to the last episode and subscribed to this podcast I’m sure you were wondering why there was no episode last week.
Well, here’s the story:
SO I had season 2 all planned out. What books and female teachers I was going to look into. I had just finished up my notes on Rachel Hollis’s book “Girl Stop Apologizing”, researching her business and social influence when on my Facebook Feed I got the promo clip for the IF:Gathering. Now I had critiqued a bible study by Jennie Allen, the “vision caster” of IF, and Lysa Turkeurst, a popular speaker at IF; as well as having read articles by other discerning women about this conference and the speakers of it. SO of course this piqued my interest. I decided to purchase tickets for the 2022 conference. I then realized that I had access to previous conferences. So I started watching 2021’s sessions and immediately I was concerned. There were 2 things I was concerned about: 1) The incorporation of psychotherapists, or trauma counselors which brought in a lot of talk on identity and victimhood. And 2) a higher focus on social justice and racial reconciliation then biblical justice and biblical reconciliation. I was curious to know if this was how the typical conference went. So I decided to check out the years before 2021. And found that, no, it wasn’t always like this. AND…this is how I went down the rabbit hole. Once in the rabbit hole I decided, if I’m gunna critique this conference, I am gonna be as thorough as my brain will allow. But to be thorough, it’s gonna take time and I’m gonna have to chuck my plans for season 2 out the window. Well, not all of it, but some. ANd so, ladies, for this thorough examination of this conference I need more time to listen to all of the conference sessions from the last couple of years and research the speakers.
With all that said, I just want to thank you for your patience and mention that for during this study I will work on releasing an episode every other week as I am researching, listening to session, diving into Scripture, and learning how to edit and produce a podcast critiquing actual audio/video instead of a book, It’s a lot more work than I thought.
Anyways, on to my introduction for this episode.
Introduction:
So in the first episode of this critique series I looked at the purpose of IF:Gathering as a ministry. We looked at what discipleship is and what is the purpose of discipleship. In the next episode I will present research in regards to the ministries of the most popular recurring speakers of the IF:Gathering Conferences. I also want to provide you with a sort of litmus test in determining if these women willingly put themselves under the authority of the Scriptures which they claim to teach. And one of those questions for the litmus text is the question of her submission to Scripture’s clear instruction on preaching over men in the gathering of the church to worship and receive the living word of God.
Today I want to dive into this a bit deeper.
Before we get into Scripture on female pastors or females preaching to a mixed gender congregation, we must first wrestle with what we believe about Scripture. If Scripture is not inerrant and not sufficient then man will look toward other authoritative texts and ideas to equip them for ideas, worldviews, philosophies, and truths.
The Sufficiency and Authority of Scripture
- The Authority of Scripture - Where does scripture come from? How did it come about? How did the Old Testament and New Testament come about? What does Jesus say about scripture? What does Jesus say about the apostles and their testimonies?
Answers:
Scripture is composed of writings of men directed by the Holy Spirit and written by the will of God. 2 Peter 1:19-21 states that
We have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention has to a lamp shining in a dark place, until ithe day jdawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For kno prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God las they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. When we open up the Scriptures we open up a book that was penned by men carried along by the Holy Spirit. They are God’s very words.
Are men still carried around by the Holy Spirit like they were in the Old Testament period? How has God chosen to speak to us now that the messiah has come?
Long ago, at many times and ain many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but bin these last days che has spoken to us by dhis Son, whom he appointed ethe heir of all things, fthrough whom also he created gthe world (Heb 1:1-2). We are in these last days that God speaks to us by his Son.
And it is this Son of God who chose men, in the New Testament period, to record His life and teachings.
We find in the books that make up the New Testament, the Gospels; which were written so that [we] may xbelieve that Jesus is the Christ, ythe Son of God, and that by believing [we] may have life ain his name.(John 20:31)
Some of these men, the apostles, were chosen by Jesus to be given the Holy Spirit whom the Father [sent] in [Christ’s] name, he [taught them] all things and [brought to their] remembrance all that [Christ said to them]. (John 14:26; see also 1 John 5:13). These remembrances are found in the New Testament.
Jesus stated that all who listen and accept the apostles accept him and the father (Matt. 10:40). Those who are from the world …speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.(1 John 4:5-6).
So because Scripture is God’s very words given to us by the Holy Spirit working through the prophets and Apostles, they are authoritative; given to us to be studied and obeyed.
- The Sufficiency of Scripture
While many of us who call ourselves Christian make the claim that Scripture is authoritative. Where we tend to go off track, is that scripture is also sufficient enough to direct, instruct, and guide all of the church into good works. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim.3:16-17). It is God’s word that is truth and by His truth we are to be sanctified (John 17:17).
Does that include directions and instructions on how the church should be run as the community of believers who meet together, worship, serve, and learn about God and their Lord, the head of the church, Jesus Christ? Yes.
So let’s dive into a little ecclesiology. Ecclesiology is the study of the church. Biblical theology as applied to the nature and structure of the Christian Church. Such topics as: What is the Church? How the Church is built. What is the purpose of the Church? How does the Church gather, when does it gather, etc. For this episode and this topic we need to look specifically at WHO is the Head of the Church?
Christ is Head of the Church
Most Christians understand that the Church is made up of people who call themselves Christians. The original greek word for Christians is “Christianos” meaning little anointed ones or little christs. The Church are God’s chosen people called by God to trust in Jesus, call Him Lord and be a disciple or “christiano”; little christs.
The Church’s Lord is Christ. For most American churches today, there is a nod to Christ as Lord, but His authority gets lost underneath the vision or calling of the leader/ vision caster.
Under the guise of receiving a calling from God, said vision caster can neglect clear instructions from our Lord given to us in Scripture for what he believes God is instructing him to do in his vision. Scripture is very clear that God put all things in subjection under Christ’s feet, and gave Christ as head over all things to the Church (Eph. 1:22; see also Eph. 5:23). While the Church is identified as the body of Christ ( Ephs. 4:12), Christ is it’s head; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything ( Col. 1:18).
Peter gives ample warning to the early church of men and women who say they speak for God, but deny him as Master by following their senses, emotion, feelings, or even a supposed vision from God, instead of following and obeying the clear instruction given to Christ’s shepherd’s on what to teach and how to teach it.
But mfalse prophets also arose among the people, njust as there will be false teachers among you, who will osecretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master pwho bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth qwill be blasphemed. 3 And rin their greed they will exploit you swith false words. (2Pet.2:1-3)
Women may speak about loving Scripture, reading it all the time and even studying it in depth, but if they bring in worldly knowledge to run around clear, simple to understand instructions in Scripture to justify their disobedience to it; this reveals who their authority really is. Their own desire. Oh, yes, God’s word is beneficial to them, they want the blessings of God, and want to teach these blessing to others, but they do not want to truly obey out of love for Christ, but love for themselves as they pursue the blessings of God and the notoriety that come with teaching these blessings.
As Christ has been given all authority and is Head of the Church.
Paul, Christ’s Apostle, was chosen to give instructions to the Church
Paul, an apostle, who is chosen by Jesus to preach to the Gentiles, was given the Holy Spirit. He was proven to be chosen by Christ by the miracles and power given to him by God to perform signs and wonders. Even Peter urges the church to listen and pay attention to his teachings and writing (2 Pet 3:14-16; Ephs.3:2).
The same Spirit that empowered Paul, chose to speak through him . The Holy Spirit knowing all things (this includes Paul's education, the society of Paul's day, the society of every nation of every decade, century, millennia, etc) would know exactly how to make Paul say exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted to convey. No society or cultural differences, nor any mis-education or mis-knowledge/understanding would hinder the Holy Spirit from making Paul or any of the other prophets, disciples or Apostles say exactly what He wanted to say. These writings are God's very words, not the interpretation of man, nor were they written by the will of man, but the will of God (2 Pet. 1:21 again ;)).
So what did Paul write in regards to preaching, teaching, authority, and the roles of women in the work of ministry?
I’m going to read 2 passages of Scripture. 1 Timothy 1 ver 3 to chapter 2 verse 7 and 1 Corin.14:33-35.
I’ve chosen to read a larger section of 1 Timothy because it’s in the very context of instructing Timothy in the role as shepherd to the flock in Ephesus. In this epistle, Paul focuses on urging Timothy to remain in the good doctrine, remind him of Christ choosing Paul to be an Apostle, guide Timothy unto certain instructions for eldership and practice of the church, and encourage him to fight the good fight of the faith. It’s in this context where Paul informs Timothy on WHO an elder should be.
- 1 Timothy 1: verse 3 starts with:
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not hto teach any different doctrine, 4 nor ito devote themselves to myths and endless jgenealogies, which promote kspeculations rather than the stewardship1 from God that is by faith. 5 The aim of our charge is love lthat issues from a pure heart and ma good conscience and na sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by oswerving from these, have wandered away into pvain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, qwithout understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
8 Now we know that rthe law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the slaw is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,2 liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to tsound3 doctrine, 11 in accordance with uthe gospel of the glory of vthe blessed God wwith which I have been entrusted.
Ok, so Paul gets right to instructing Timothy to charge certain persons not to teach any other doctrine than what he was taught. Let’s look at where Paul goes next.
12 I thank him xwho has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, yappointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, zpersecutor, and insolent opponent. But aI received mercy bbecause I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and cthe grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the dfaith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is etrustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus fcame into the world to save sinners, gof whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To hthe King of the ages, iimmortal, jinvisible, kthe only God, lbe honor and glory forever and ever.4 Amen.
18 This charge mI entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with nthe prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may owage the good warfare, 19 pholding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have qmade shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are rHymenaeus and sAlexander, whom I thave handed over to Satan that they may learn not to ublaspheme.
So, Paul, after instructing Timothy to charge other teachers to teach ONLY what was sound doctrine, Paul explains first that it was Christ that chose Paul for the very task of giving this doctrine to the Gentiles, and then goes into what this good doctrine is; that Christ came into the world to save sinners, from whom Paul was an example to all the world, him being the chief sinner. Side note here- I love this part of the passage. Paul is basically saying that if Christ is patient and so gracious to such a sinner as himself, Christ is just as patient and gracious to all who come to Him. That includes you and me. What a savior! But I digress…
But along with proclaiming Christ’s great patience and mercy, Paul is reminding Timothy of the authority Christ has given Paul in His selection of Paul. It is by this authority that Paul then goes on to give instructions to Timothy on what is good for the church to do when they gather and who are to lead and teach them in these matters.
2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 vfor kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and wdignified in every way. 3 This is good, and xit is pleasing in the sight of yGod our Savior, 4 who desires zall people to be saved and ato come to bthe knowledge of the truth. 5 For cthere is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man1 Christ Jesus, 6 dwho gave himself as a ransom for all, which is ethe testimony given fat the proper time. 7 gFor this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (hI am telling the truth, I am not lying), ia teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
There Paul goes again, reminding Timothy (and all who read this epistle) that Paul was “appointed a preacher and an apostle, a teacher of the Gentiles in the faith and truth”. It is with the authority given to him by Christ that he now states the text that we are honing in on.
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
So not only does Paul have authority to instruct Timothy on what is good doctrine, he has the authority to direct the Church in what is done when they gather to worship, and who is to be leading the church in worship. But like good ol’ Paul, he gives us a reason why women are to remain quiet; and that is because of creation.
Paul’s argument against women having authority over men is rooted in creation. That man was created first. Notice also that Paul reminds the reader that the woman was deceived. And that Adam was not. We must also take note that while it was the woman who was deceived, and Adam was not, yet Adam is identified as the one whom the curse of sin is passed on and to which the whole world was subjected to death (Rom.5:12). The responsibility and authority over the Earth, to work it and keep it, was given to Adam; along with God's first command to not eat of the tree of knowledge and evil. These were given to Adam before Eve was even created. He, by being created first and by being given the instructions of God, was given authority to instruct Eve unto these things. And Eve was created to be Adam’s helper in accomplishing that which God instructed.
When we understand this, we then understand why death comes from Adam’s sin and not Eve's. So Adam not only had authority, and was the federal head as he represented all of humanity. He was a type of Christ who would be the federal head of all who are chosen, the Church (1 Cor.15:22, 45; Rom.5:12-17). Headship is at the heart of the way God instituted authority and order in creation. We see it in Genesis, in Exodus (as He chose Moses as His prophet and chose from the line of Levi those who would be the Priests of His temple). We see it in all of the historical records of Israel, as Kings were men. And we see God continuing His choosing of men to hold authority in His Church as He (Christ) chose 12 disciples who would go on to become Apostles. These Apostles, understanding headship, would then choose men from among their disciples to become elders. And that is exactly what we see in this epistle. After pointing out that Adam was created first and that Eve was deceived, Paul goes right into what Timothy should be looking for in choosing an Overseer, or Elder of the Church.
Note - Paul, writing under the will of God by the Holy Spirit, uses creation as his argument for headship in the church. The Holy Spirit would not allow any scriptural writer to misunderstand or misinterpret the Old Testament as He would not allow a lie, or misunderstanding because the Holy Spirit cannot lie or mislead in any way.
If we say that women can be pastors, elders or hold any position of authority over men within the church because these passages prohibiting female authority were only written to protect cultural norms at Paul's time we then imply that the Holy Spirit intended to teach something that would end. This contradicts the Holy Spirit’s teaching that the instructions given by Paul were rules given to all the churches (1 Corin.14:33-35).
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Now there are several things of note in regards to this passage:
1) That this is in the context of a letter written to the Corinthians corrects certain practices or traditions as he calls them that the Corinthians were abusing. In chapter 11 it was headcoverings, where Paul wanted to correct this practice as it was an outward symbol of an inward truth, and the Lord’s Supper as people were partaking of it without first discerning or judging themselves, for one who partakes of the Supper is to do it in remembrance of CHrist and in proclamation of the Lord’s death.
Continuing in this correctional manner, in chapter 12 Paul directs the Corinthians into correct usage of the spiritual gifts, instructing them that love is at the heart of all spiritual gifts. In this love Paul instructs the people that if they are to speak in tongues they are to have an interpreter, and that those who prophecy, do it one by one, and are to be judged by the other prophets for “the spirit of prophets are subject to prophets”. It is in this context that Paul gives the prohibition against women speaking in the church. Women are not to bring a judgment or “weigh what is said” upon the prophecies given but are to learn with submission. If the Spirit of prophecy came upon a woman in the church, she might speak, but to expound upon the prophecy, teach or exegete it, she was to remain quiet and submit herself to elders who would judge or weigh what is said.
2) This passage states that women should be in submission AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS; referencing the law or Torah, which describes the institution of headship with God’s creation of Adam and Eve. The fact Adam was created first, and given the authority to name God’s creation as well as work the land, gives clear evidence to Headship. And as Eve was created, not only after Adam, from Adam, and was named by Adam, she was created FOR Adam to be a willing helper equal and fit for him. It is in this nature that the law of headship and submission is displayed.
3) notice where, in both the 1Timothy and 1 Corinthians passage, it is shameful for a woman to speak- the church. We have several instances of women prophesying outside of the church (as in the case of Anna), even instances of women helping men in correct teaching (as in the case of Priscilla). In the ministry of proclaiming the Gospel to unbelievers women are encouraged to speak. It is because the Church is separate from the world and is the gathering of believers who devote themselves to the Apostles' teachings (Acts2:42) that the authoritative roles of teaching and preaching on these things are reserved for men. In Ephesians 4:11-16 we read that the Lord gives… the napostles, the prophets, the oevangelists, the pshepherds3 and teachers,4 12 qto equip the saints for the work of ministry, for rbuilding up sthe body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to tthe unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, uto mature manhood,5 to the measure of the stature of vthe fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, wtossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in xdeceitful schemes. 15 Rather, yspeaking the truth in love, we are to zgrow up in every way into him who is athe head, into Christ, 16 bfrom whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, cwhen each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
The authority given to the men who fulfill these roles is for the building up of God’s people to become like Christ and speaking the truth in love, we grow in every way into Christ. When the Church body is working properly in the roles given to it, it grows, building itself up in love.
This is why women should learn quietly with all submissiveness (1 Tim.2:11). Because in so doing they are being built up unto maturity and becoming more and more like Christ.
Since the admonition against women speaking in ways that teach and hold authority in the church is rooted in creation and the law, that in choosing to reject this prohibition, a woman would not merely be misunderstanding God’s word, but would be sinning against God.
This is something we don't think about a lot. I think in most discussions in regards to women teaching and holding authority within the church gathering, we talk as if this is a secondary issue that one where one comes to Scripture based on how they interpret it. Yet, Paul is specific to mention the Law here.
Michelle Lesley from a blog post titled “Women Preaching: It’s Not a Secondary Doctrinal Issue” on her website, MichelleLesley.com states:
“Women serving as pastors, women preaching, women teaching men Scripture in the church, and women exercising authority over men in the church is not a secondary issue. Nor is it a primary or tertiary one. It does not belong in the category of “doctrine” in the same way baptism and eschatology do. It belongs in the category of sin in the same way murder, gossip, and adultery do. Let’s take a look at the reasons for this…
Secondary and tertiary doctrines can be open – to varying degrees – to biblical interpretation. Every stripe of non-heretical eschatological thought can provide you with chapter and verse passages that can, depending on the angle from which you approach the subject, be biblically plausible and scripturally supported. There is no biblical support for anything God prohibits. No one can cite a properly handled, in context Bible verse in which God says, “It’s OK to commit adultery,” or “Women are allowed to preach.” There can be multiple views on a secondary or tertiary issue that can all be considered biblical, but there can only be one view of sin that is biblical…
Differing beliefs on secondary and tertiary issues are not born of disobedience and rebellion toward God. Usually, it’s quite the opposite. When someone has studied a theological issue enough to hold a particular position on it, it’s usually because she is striving to please God and to be biblical in her beliefs. Differing behavior on issues of sin is born out of disobedience and rebellion toward God. Someone who steals has already decided in her heart that her desires are better than God’s command. A woman who knowingly holds improper authority over men in her church is doing so because she has already decided to defy God’s clear command against such.”
And finally in 1Corinthians 14:36-38 Paul states:
Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
And this rule, that women are to be silent in the church comes from God’s Law, not any cultural issue.
Notice too, Paul’s response to those who might question this rule. He basically says, “Did God speak through you? Are you the only one’s God has spoken to?” The answer to this rhetorical question is NO. God has spoken through the Scriptures written by the Prophets and Apostles. And that if we think we are spiritual and know better than they, we should know better and take ALL their writings as commands from the Lord. Then he ends by stating that if one does not recognize that these things he writes are God’s very commands then that person is not recognized (either by the Apostles or God).
Now I want to take you down a path that doesn’t get thought about much in regards to women either calling themselves Pastors or choosing to preach over men in a Sunday morning service even under the guidance of elders, and that is this:
What is the spiritual role of a Pastor and what is the purpose of Preaching?
What does it mean to preach? What is preaching? Could the nature of preaching have something to do with WHY God chooses men over women?
The role of preacher is instituted by God and given to a man to “proclaim” or “herald” the Good News.
Rom. 10:14-17 states: How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
The preacher brings the good news of the Gospel, and the preaching is the word of Christ.
The preacher's goal is to communicate the objective and authoritative revelation given to us by God, that is the Scriptures. Preaching’s effect is the edification of the people of God by the power of the Holy Spirit through such means as teaching through argument, explanation, motive, exhortation, and persuasion. The tool of the preacher in the act of preaching is the Word of God which has all authority, because Christ has all authority. And I believe it is because of the authority given to the preacher and exercised in the act or preaching, that God has chosen to give this role to men.
What do we say about the authority of God’s word when we set aside the extreme importance and necessity of preaching in the church? Preaching is seen today to be a motivational speech, as people collect for themselves teachers that tickle their ears and boost their egos.
It is because of our sinful desire to hear only what we want to hear that Paul urges Timothy to preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; kreprove, rebuke, and lexhort, with complete patience and teaching.( 2 Tim.4:2-3). Yet, perhaps it is because most evangelical churches do not actually preach the word that women giving motivational speeches sprinkled with Scriptural references is tolerated. If we not only held up God’s word as authoritative and sufficient, but that it should be preached in our gatherings, we would not give up the pulpit to watered down messages given by women.
HOly Spirit is quite clear in what He has given us in Scripture. Women are not to teach or hold authority over men within the gathering of God’s people.
Can God contradict Himself?
Would this same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write that women are not to teach or hold authority over men in the church gathering, actually inspire or call women to go against this directive? To be a woman and make the claim that preaching to men is a calling given to them by God is to contradict His written word. Any woman who claims this should give us pause to consider and judge whether she is willing to submit to God’s word. If she refuses, then we have no need to put ourselves under her teaching.
Application
What does this mean for us, ladies?
- It means that we guard who we listen to when it comes to teaching God’s word.
- It means that we can identify the willingness of a female teacher to submit to God’s word by looking at whether she rejects the clear instruction given to women in their roles in the church gatherings.
- It means we take serious the word of God in our spiritual act of worship in placing ourselves under men who PREACH God’s word and place ourselves under women who honor the God given roles, and teach women to obey these instructions as well as all the other good doctrines and teachings found in Scripture that will encourage you to love husbands and children, be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to husbands so that the word of God will not be reviled (Titus 2;3-5).
- If you were like me, who at one time was in ignorance of this, nor spent much time thinking about it, or maybe you are one who saw no problem with female pastors, or you even are attending a church that has a female pastor; perhaps God has brought you to this episode to cause you to dive into His word. Because that is what I pray you do. Go to God’s word and see if I handled the passages correctly and in context. Wrestle with it yourselves, with a willing heart to be corrected should you be unsubmissive to it in any way. For God is a good God who will grant wisdom. For If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. (Jam. 1:5)
Conclusion
Scripture is clear on who is to be preaching and and exercising the authoritative role of teaching the word of God to the church congregation at a Sunday service. It is very clear that that role is to be performed by a man. And that if any of these female speakers reject this instruction they are not willingly putting themselves under Christ’s authority and therefore are not qualified to teach women.
So ladies as we move forward in critiquing the IF:Gathering Speakers in the next episode, I will be giving you a litmus test in determining whether these women were called by God to teach and train His women. It was necessary to tackle this issue before we look at the speakers so you can see what type of teachers Jennie invites to speak at the conference.
But until next time, I pray that this episode has helped you trust in the Scripture more, as we have looked at it’s authority, it sufficiency, Paul’s calling to Apostleship, the Holy Spirit’s guiding of Paul into instruction to all the churches, and God’s calling of faithful men to be given authority by our Good Shepherd to guide the flock into all knowledge and understanding; building up and edify His people, though the simplicity of preaching.
I pray you are in His word.
MelbaToast
Greetings: Welcome back ladies, I am so thankful you have chosen to listen to this episode. I have been battling with sickness for the last week and it really shows in my voice so I ask that you just bear with me. So let’s just dive in. That was the promo clip for IF:Gathering 2022.
Introduction:
If you currently attend seeker sensitive, Calvary Chapel, non-denominational, and the common baptist churches you may have heard of the IF: Gathering, a discipleship ministry created by Jennie Allen, which launched its first conference back in 2014. This conference is done in a more modern format, as it has been held online to reach those across the world in small house or church gatherings.
For about 8 years now, If: Gathering has grown in popularity and has hosted some of America’s most popular Evangelical female speakers such as Beth Moore, Christine Caine, Bianca Olthoff, Ann Voskamp, Lysa Turkeurst, Jackie Hill Perry, and many others.
Ok, ladies. Let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about IF: Gathering. Bear with me, don’t shut me off yet. I know we have our favorite speakers, and especially us women, don’t like to question things that have seemed to bless us or benefited us in some way. I get that, I have felt that way too. God works all things together for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose (Rom.8:28). I have clearly seen God work maturity in my walk through His word. And even in the many years I was involved in churches that had unbiblical teachings, He worked in my life by opening my eyes to the false teaching by faithful teachers who exposed them and brought to light God’s word. But see God was merciful to me through His word, not through false teaching, and not through women who rebelled against God’s word. His word did it’s work despite all that.
That is my heart in these next couple of episodes. To show you the concerns I have for this ministry and conference, to call you to look at the Scriptures and to see if what is being taught will actually produce women after Christ’s own heart or women after the IF:Gathering’s heart
So let’s start with that… let’s start with the heart or goal of IF:Gathering. The ministry’s goal is to “...[put] tools and resources in the hands of women within the church… to empower women to reclaim discipleship as God’s means to change the world. In 8 years, through technology, our events, and our tools, we have reached more than one million women in 179 countries and we have a grand desire to see an entire generation discipled and unleashed to then go and make more disciples of Jesus. We believe with God it’s possible.” (ifgathering.com/our-story/).
The questions we need to be asking are:
1) What is the tool that women need to be empowered in discipleship?
2) Does discipleship need to be RECLAIMED as god’s means to change the world?
Let’s address the 2nd question first. Jennie believes, by this statement, that discipleship needs to be “reclaimed”. To reclaim something means to recover or retrieve something that was previously lost, given or paid. So in this case Mrs. Allen is making the claim that discipleship needs to be recovered, and more specifically that it needs to be reclaimed as God’s means to change the world. That somehow discipleship is no longer about changing the world. Is this true? Is discipleship God’s means by which he changes the world?
Well, we need to have a right understanding of what discipleship is before we ask if Jennie Allen is correct about it being the means to change the world.
So let’s look to God’s very words to learn about what discipleship is.
Matthew 28:18-20 is what Christians call the great commission passage. This is the passage that calls all Christians to discipleship. When I read this, look at what Jesus instructs the apostles to do. And let’s see if changing the world is an end goal.
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Let’s just make a note of some of the things Jesus tells us here. That ALL authority in heaven AND on the Earth are given to Him. He has ALL authority on this earth. He is in authority over all governments, and all people’s. And because He has ALL authority He now instructs His Apostles to go and make disciples, to make followers, learners, those that want to learn and obey all that Christ commands. He taught the Apostles and the apostles teach us to this day, by the written word of God.
But let’s go deeper. What does discipleship look like, what are we to learn, what is the goal of discipleship? Is it to change the world?
What does discipleship start with? It starts with the Gospel, the good news that the Apostle’s proclaimed to the nearby nations. That God sent his Son to die for our sins, and was raised on the 3rd day, revealing that He has the power over sin, death, and the devil to set free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death (Heb 2:14-15). And with Him being the One with all power and authority, we are called to repent of our sin and trust in the finished work of Christ, justified by His blood, so that we may be saved from the wrath to come (Rom.5:9). Discipleship starts with the good news.
And …Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2 Corin.5:17-20
This is our message
And by this good news we are made new to follow our Master, our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Discipleship starts with the Gospel and the proclamation of the reconciliation between God and His people. And from there it is about training those who are reconciled to observe and obey ALL that Christ has commanded. We see this all over the epistles. The prayers of Paul and Peter are centered on the formation of Christ in His people so that they may be filled with all the fullness of God.
So is the goal of discipleship to change the world? No.
The effects of large groups of people being discipled will change the world. We cannot disregard that. But that is not the purpose of discipleship. The purpose of discipleship is to teach His people to “observe all that [Christ] commanded the Apostles”.
We can find out more on the purpose of discipleship in Ephesians 4:11-16:
…he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
All of ministry is done with the heart of making disciples. And Christ has given His people apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers to train the disciples up to serve and disciple others. So that we all attain to the knowledge of the SOn of God, to bring people up to the maturity, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so we are no longer carried to and fro by every wind of doctrine, but instead by truth spoken to us in love, we grow up IN EVERY WAY into HIM, who is the head. We are to grow up into Christ.
For us women, discipleship is about training God’s women to be like Christ.
And that is the purpose of women’s ministry. It is not to equip you with tools to train you up to change the world.
In fact Christ came to give life to his sheep, to lay down His life so we might have life abundant (John 10:10). In this abundant life, yes, we will love our neighbor, and in that love will do many good works in the world, but our goal is not to change it, but to proclaim the One who saves it from the wrath of God.
We make disciples because individuals need to be saved. We make disciples because those who have been saved also need to be trained to observe and obey Christ and all He commands.
The goal of discipleship is NOT to change the world. It is not even making you a better version of yourself, nor a calling by God to do something great for Him. It is a putting on of a whole NEW man, the man Jesus Christ, denying ourselves and becoming like Him. It is to call another individual to obey Christ as Lord. For this to happen we must be proclaiming the Gospel, knowing nothing but Christ and Him crucified, hearing about Him, seeing Him in the good works of ourselves and others, and growing into the mature stature of Him.
Was discipleship the means by which God changed the world. Well.. I believe there are pieces missing to this statement. The Gospel is the means by which God saves His people, and discipleship is a means by which He sanctifies his people. People who are more like Christ love and serve others and by obvious deduction we could say that the more sanctified people there are the more the world will change…yes. And yet, I cannot find anywhere in scripture that God calls His people to work on changing the world, because from the very beginning, from the moment sin entered the world, it wasn’t change that God said we needed but salvation from death (Gen.2:17) and the wrath of God that is to come against all those who do evil (Rom.2:6-11).
It is the salvation and sanctification of His people that all Christian ministry should be about. To minister is to provide a service, and for the Christian our service is always done with the heart to edify and grow the Church.
So now that we know what discipleship is and what it is for, we can look a bit at what women’s ministry is, and more specifically what a woman’s conference should be about. Especially if the conference goal is to equip women in discipleship.
Women’s ministry is women serving and training other women to obey Christ’s commands. Now there are broad commands that Christ instructs the whole of the church body in, and there are more narrow commands that He gives to His women. In Titus 2 we have a more narrow or specific set of commands on what the older women are to train the younger women up into.
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (Titus 2:3-5).
These are the good works and acts of love that Christ, by the Holy Spirit, through the apostle Paul, instructs women to disciple the younger into.
It saddens me how the popular church culture today thinks so little of the family. Oh, yes, they teach on parenting, how to get your kids to behave, how to train your kids to become world changers. But it is so lost in these type of churches that the family should be the clearest display of the relationship between Christ and His Bride, the Church. Should God grant one marriage and children, discipleship starts with the family. This is not to say that one cannot disciple others should God not grant them a spouse and children, but it is the common means by which God instituted discipleship. He calls all His people to train up their children. That his words be on our heart, teaching them diligently to our children, talking of them when we sit down in our house, when we walk by the way, and when we lie down and when we rise (Deut. 6:6-7). We are to bring up our children in the discipline and instruction of the Lord ( Ephs. 6:4). This is discipleship! It is an honor to disciple our children and God has called women to have one of the most important influences on our children as well as our husbands. Yes, we women can disciple our husbands as well. In fact God states that our submission to our husbands has a great effect on them. A meek and quiet spirit that is willing to submit to our husband can disciple our husbands and win them without a word (1Pet.3:1-6). Our godly submissive conduct is an example of how the Church submits to Christ, her Lord and Savior (Eph. 5:31-32).
It is a failure within popular Evangelical Christianity today to equip wives and mothers to ministry out in society without focusing on discipleship within the home as God’s first and foremost calling to women. So much of the American Evangelical Women’s ministry of today wants to pull you away from what God has instructed in Titus 2. Their books, small group studies, and conferences all overwhelmingly point you away from discipleship in the home. Is the IF:Gathering conference any different?
I am not against conferences. Conferences have their purpose. I think they are a very successful tool to use in promoting ideas. And that is where the problem with conferences lies, that they are so successful. Depending on the ideas and teachings being conveyed it can be a very successful tool at spreading false teaching. The excitement, the feelings brought through music and lighting, the large crowds, all of these can entice us away from truth. So as christians we should have a different use for conferences, not the spreading of the world’s ideas, but the spread and exaltation of God’s word.
What should be the purpose of any christian woman’s conference?
To glorify God. In whatever endeavor, we are to do them all to the glory of God (1 Corin. 10:31). Merely 8 verses before this most popular verse Paul informs the Corinthian Church that “All things are lawful” but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good but the good of his neighbor. (1 Corin.10: 23-24).
Now, in the context, Paul is talking about meat sacrificed to idols. He is trying to teach the Corinthians that while we have liberty to eat what we want with a clear conscience, should we be confronted with certain pagan/idolatry practices we are to build up our neighbor, to seek his good. And in seeking out his good we would confront his idolatry to pierce his conscience. I know this seems off topic but, I’m getting there, because it is in this context that Paul then states that we are to do all things for God’s glory. And how does God receive glory in this way? Paul continues: Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the Church of God, just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved. (1 Corin. 10:32-33). God is most glorified when we do not seek our own advantage, but the advantage of others, especially any effort on our behalf to bring them to salvation.
A Christian Women’s conference should be about the salvation of other women, and their spiritual growth, for the glory of God.
That begs the question; well, how does a women’s conference bring this about?
When we answer this question, we will expose certain presuppositions and philosophies that are so very easy for people to miss.
There are 2 ways that people have chosen to answer this.
- That Scripture is all we need to present at a conference to help equip the people attending for Christian living and discipleship.
- Scripture and worldly knowledge will best equip the people for Christian living and discipleship.
Understanding that there are these 2 foundational presuppositions in parachurch ministries we can now go back and answer the question I posed in the beginning: What tools do women need to be empowered in discipleship?
These tools that IF:Gathering wish to impart to us will reveal which kind of foundation they are built upon.
Christ tells us in Matt.7:24-27
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like aa wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like aa foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
The words of Christ are given to us in Scripture. They are more sure than any personal experience or even any scientific, philosophical, psychological, and sociological observation (which is an experience as well). They are what Peter instructs us to pay attention to (2 Pet. 1:19). In fact Jesus makes this claim about what we are to build upon right after he informs his listeners that not everyone who even calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven, only those who do the will of the Father ( Matt.7:21).
Where do we find the Father’s will? In unregenerate’s man’s observations and philosophies? No. Scripture reveals the will of the Father.
Do we make disciples by reading Jennie Allen’s books and attending IF:Gatherings with millions of other women across the globe?
Is Scripture sufficient to train us on how to be a disciple and make other disciples? Our modern society wants to believe that we are more advanced than our predecessors. Somehow, because we live in this technological age we just are wiser and now know better. We have advanced in philosophy (so we think), become more aware of sociological issues, and know more about the human soul (psychology) than we did a hundred years ago. And because of this we should be integrating philosophical, sociological, and psychological tools into our ministries to better equip women in making disciples. Why is Scripture not enough? Why do we have to integrate these sciences into our discipleship programs? Does mankind know better? Or does God know best and give all we need for life, godliness, and good works in His Word?
We are just so ashamed of Scripture, today in our very modern era. In our shame of God’s word, to make it more palatable for unbelievers, we feel that God needs man’s help to bring them to Christ. This is syncretism, a tool used by liberal theologians for this very purpose, to draw in the unbeliever. It has become the weapon of choice that the devil has used to undermine the authority, clarity, perspicuity, and sufficiency of Scripture. It’s the same question by which satan tempted Eve in the garden : Did God really say…? Is Scripture really enough to equip you in the good work of discipleship? Do you think you would equip your listeners and conference attendees better if you integrated useful analytical tools such as positive psychology, critical race theory, intersectionality, etc in the conference messages? Your audience needs to know how to engage with the world. How else will you make disciples?
So many of our churches today forget who has ALL authority, and who brings salvation. One is born again through the work of the Spirit (John 3:3), calling on the name of the Lord through hearing the proclamation of the Gospel (Rom.10:14). And when we are brought into the family of God we then are equipped and trained by His word (2 Tim.3:16-17).
We can say we believe in the inerrant word of God. Claim it as our authority. But we undermine that authority if we do not go to it as sufficient to train us to be like Christ. But maybe that’s the issue. We are not taught in these churches to be like Christ, but to be world changers instead. They forget or do not believe that Christ was and is the Ultimate world changer, one who brings reconciliation between God and His people. This is our mission, to proclaim this reconciliation. No other reconciliation, no gender reconciliation, no racial reconciliation, but the reconciliation between a Holy God and a most unholy, godless people. OUr mission in discipleship is after the same heart of Paul, to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corin. 2:2).
So as I listen to the conference I want to discern what is being taught by these popular teachers. The next couple of episodes are going to look at the speakers and their teachings.
On one end, we can praise God that the gospel is preached by those who may have selfish ambition in preaching it, and like Paul we can praise God for saving people even through sinful people (Phil. 1:15-18). But it is another thing for one to add to or change the Gospel along with misusing or adding to the word of God. That is another thing altogether and one Paul never let slide (Gal. 2:11-13).
Part 2 we will look at not all, but most of the speakers, especially focusing on the female ones. I want to observe their faithfulness to the Scriptures, whether they submit themselves to the clear teaching in Scripture to the role of women in the church. So this episode will be more research related and relaying of mere information on the speakers of IF:Gathering
In part 3 I will be looking at the teaching presented at the last couple of years of If:Gathering. I want to discern who they preach. Do they preach themselves or Christ? How do they handle Scripture? Is the Scripture about Christ, from which they point us to Him and what He teaches or do they use it as a manual for right living? Do they focus more on urging us to good works for the benefit of society or urge us to pursue knowing, loving and being like Christ?
So ladies, the next couple of episodes are going to be enlightening. They may rock your world, and you may feel inclined to rebuke me, or they may make you think. Either reaction, I pray you get into God’s word to work it out. Ask these questions, and let God’s word guide you into what is true.
I pray that, as you do that, you are reaccessing what women’s ministry should look like, and more specifically, what a women’s conference should look like. I pray that if you are older, you are actively looking for younger women to disciple. If you are younger you are actively looking for an older woman who is grounded and firm in God’s word. I pray that our ultimate desire is to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified for our sins.
I pray, you are in His Word.
MelbaToast
Introduction
Hello! And welcome back to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped, I am your host MelbaToast and am so glad you could join me today! May this episode bless you and bring Glory to God.
Womanhood. What is it? What is a woman? What does it mean to be a woman? Is it determined biologically or by one’s feelings, choice, or behaviors? Can anyone be a woman?
I played a couple of clips in the intro to this episode. It’s very eye opening to hear people’s response to the question. And these questions were asked to women at a woman’s march. You would think people attending a march for women’s rights would have a clear definition of what a women is and what womanhood looks like.
But here is what I observed in these statement of ambiguity and inclusion. The underlying idea that ANYONE can be a woman by merely identifying as a woman makes women and what it means to be one meaningless. Things that mean nothing and everything are not only contradictory but have no value.
Now more than ever, I believe women who hold to Scripture as their directive for life and living, have the answer to this question. God reveals to us in nature and biology our physical differences and the bodily functions of those differences, but we also have God’s word that informs us of our created purpose and gender roles that come with being created female.
It is both the design and the roles that encompass womanhood. We do not choose to be a woman, God made that choice for us, and in his choice our purpose/roles are given.
Last season, our Titus 2 times were episodes that discussed God’s doctrine. We looked at what is doctrine, where do we find doctrine, true versus false doctrine, and discerning doctrine. I felt this was very foundational when looking at Titus 2. Older women teaching the younger women the whole counsel of God (His good doctrine), is one of the means by which God purifies for Himself women who are zealous for good works. So this season I want to really dive into Womanhood and the beauty of God’s design for us.
But before we dive into defining womanhood we have to address HOW we should answer this question.
Sola Scriptura and Biblical Womanhood
- Do we learn from culture/tradition to determine what it means to be a woman?
- Do we look at Science and observation to define what a woman is and what womanhood looks like?
- Do we learn from the Creator of humanity, the One who made both male and female?
We, as Christians, know the answer to this. We go to God. He created us, He knows best.
But it’s one thing to believe in God and to know that he has the answer, it’s another to ask how we receive his answer. And that is extremely fundamental to this discussion.
- Ask yourself what you believe about Scripture:
- Is it written by God?
- If it is, Is the God you worship Sovereign, all powerful?
- Is God sovereign enough to say EXACTLY what He wants to say?
- Is God sovereign enough to work through the writer’s up-bringing, education, culture, and even his sinful nature to say EXACTLY what He wants to say?
- Is God sovereign enough to know the impact of His teachings, despite the differences in culture thousands of years later?
- Is it inerrant?
- Is all of it without error?
- Is God, not only sovereign enough and intelligent enough to say EXACTLY what he want to say but also sovereign enough and powerful enough to KEEP His word, throughout time and culture?
- Did God provide, in His word, everything we need, not only for salvation and life, but perfect and thorough instruction into righteousness and godliness?
- Did God provide all we need to live as godly women?
For all these questions the answer is Yes.
And since He has given us His very word that is profitable for teaching us what a woman is, rebuking us where we sin as women, correcting our false beliefs, and training us into righteous womanhood- it thoroughly equips us to be not merely women but Godly women.
So let’s look at what God teaches us about women.
- That GOD MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE AND BOTH IN HIS IMAGE
Then God said, o“Let us make man8 in our image, pafter our likeness. And qlet them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
rmale and female he created them. Gen 1:26-27
Let’s first tackle this statement “Male and female he created them”. These are two distinctly different humans here. That difference is what we have called gender for thousands of years. And there are only 2 of them. Male and female. This is a biological statement, one that can be observed by looking at DNA. We can definitively say that one is either male or female by the chromosomes one has. But there is more than just being identified as female that makes one a woman. Why do I say that?
Both Male and female are made in God’s image. Humanity is set apart from the rest of creation because we are image bearers.
Theologians describe having been made in God’s image as reflecting certain attributes of God. God, being a spirit is not visible that we can sculpt and draw his image. But we do have spirits that display, reflect, and communicate who He is. In the beginning this image was good, and after the fall, we still retain this image, but it is turned inward, reflecting and communicating ourselves instead of God.
When one is justified in Christ, this self, their spirit becomes a new one, one that, by God’s sanctifying work,...is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator- Col.3:10.
Yet, whether one is male or female, saved or not, we are made in God’s image, and are of equal value and worth.
- God tells us that Woman was made FROM man and FOR man.*
When no zbush of the field1 was yet in the land2 and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man ato work the ground, 6 and a mist3 was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 7 then the LORD God formed the man of bdust from the ground and cbreathed into his dnostrils the breath of life, and ethe man became a living creature. 8 And the LORD God planted a fgarden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. gThe tree of life was in the midst of the garden, hand the tree of the knowledge of good and evil….The LORD God took the man kand put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lyou shall not eat, for in the day that you eat4 of it you mshall surely die.”
18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; nI will make him a helper fit for5 him.” 19 oNow out of the ground the LORD God had formed6 every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and pbrought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam7 there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a qdeep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made8 into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,
“This at last is rbone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was staken out of Man.”9
24 tTherefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.- Gen. 2: 5-9 and 15-24
There is a lot of information that we can glean from these passages. And men have studied it for years. But for this episode I want to focus on only a couple of things.
- That God made humanity for a purpose.
- That God created 2 types of humans for this purpose.
- And there is an order in which he created them as well as a difference in the WAY he created them
The LORD God took the man kand put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it (Verse 15).
The Male human was created first and placed in the garden and instructed to tend it before the female human was created. This is important and it lays out for us that God intended for Man (Adam, as he was named) to have an authoritative role in tending the land. He was given the instruction and it was his responsibility to carry it out.
Seeing that it was not good for Adam to carry out this instruction alone God created a helper fit for him (verse 18 & 20). And notice what Scripture interjects here as God had seen that Adam needed a helper. Adam had been at work naming the animals, which gives Adam an authority over these animals. God, himself named Adam and gives Adam that responsibility to name all the rest of creation. This is part of Adam reflecting God, part of his being made in God’s image. God has authority and delegated authority to Adam to tend the garden and name the animals. Just keep this in mind as we continue.
So God, seeing that Adam was alone and was in need of a proper helper to accomplish the task, put Adam to sleep, removed a rib and formed Eve FROM Adam’s rib. She is from him, and for him, and made in God’s image.
Wayne Grudem expands a bit deeper on what it means for woman to be a helper fit for man.
The Hebrew text can be translated literally, “I will make for him (Hebrew le-) a helper fit for him.” The apostle Paul understands this accurately, because in 1 Corinthians 11 he writes, “Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man” (1 Corinthians 11:9). Eve’s role, and the purpose that God had in mind when He created her, was that she should be “for him . . . a helper.” . . . Yet in the same sentence God emphasizes that the woman is not to help the man as one who is inferior to him. Rather, she is to be a helper “fit for him” and here the Hebrew word kenegdô means a help “corresponding to him,” that is “equal and adequate to himself.” So Eve was created as a helper, but as a helper who was Adam’s equal, and one who differed from him, but who differed from him in ways that would exactly complement who Adam was.
(Grudem, Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth, 119)
When Adam wakes, God presents her to him and Adam, continuing his role as one in authority over God’s creation, names her woman. She is named woman not merely because she is created female, but because she came from man. She is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.
Now back in the first account of the creation of Man God says… to them, s“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Gen 1:28
This is what men and women are instructed to do. Multiply, fill, subdue, and take dominion.
Ok, from Scripture we can answer what a woman is. A woman is an adult female human being, equal in worth to man, created in God’s image to be man’s helper in accomplishing the directive to rule over the earth.
She is as much a reflection of God as man is, and is as important as man is. She was and is needed to help man multiply, fill, subdue, and take dominion.
Not only is she equal to man, needed for man, but she is also the glory of man (1 Corin.11:7). While woman was created from the rib of man, she is the completion of man (Gen.2:24), her role in helping man rule over the earth brings glory to man. This may seem to our modern feminine sensibilities to be degrading of women, but to be the glory of someone is by no means minimizing their worth. Paul uses the same word when describing the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 2:20, that they are his glory and joy. They were the fulfillment of his aspirations, not because of anything that Paul did but because God through them helped Paul accomplish what he was called to do. In the same way, we women are not merely the glory of man because of what man does, but because God has created women to work through them to help man accomplish God’s will. Man is the glory of God and woman is the glory of man. Eve was the best thing that came from man because she was made to be his helper.
And to make it even more astounding, God not only determined to create Eve from the rib of Adam but determined that by the means of the man and woman becoming one flesh, man then comes from woman. “In the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God”- 1Corin 11:11-12
This verse, and really all the other verses we have looked at touch on biology. I didn’t really get into talk on defining women in biological terms because I wanted to first lay out that women are made in God’s image and made for a purpose. Now this purpose explains WHY we are made biologically different. Our physical differences are designed by God as the means by which we multiply AND complete the roles that God has given to men and women (I will get a bit more into this in coming episodes). But while our DNA and the body parts that were created by God through them are used to identify male and female, they don’t give us the purpose of men and women, nor the reason why God made humanity as either male or female.
Ok, so now we have defined what a woman is, but what is womanhood?
That, ladies, we will conquer in the next Titus 2 Time episode.
In conclusion for today, tho…I want to bring us to the heart of the issue in our gender discussion, one that I always want to point us to, and that is the Gospel. Yes, the Gospel is so intertwined in this. In eternity past God, knowing that His creation would undergo the subjection of sin, in infinite wisdom, chose to create beings that would reflect Him as male and female, to be joined together to become one flesh. These 2 genders, the male human and the female human, would ultimately reflect THE most beautiful, gracious truth, that would shine in a fallen world…the glory of Christ and His Bride, the Church. This is good, strong theology..I’ll let John Piper explain
Ladies, I pray you grasp this. I pray you know you were created to be a woman, called to glorify God in His design of you. He calls you, as a woman, to display the wonders of the Gospel, the glory of Christ’s work in redeeming you from your sins, and clothing you in His righteousness. I pray, ladies that you revel in being made a woman, and grow in sanctification as you strive to reflect his image, diving into strong theology as you learn about Him in Scripture. I pray…you are in His word.
MelbaToast
Thoroughly Equipped S.2 Ep.4
Before we continue on our critique of the IF:Gathering Conference and look at it’s popular speakers, I wanted to lay a foundation for why it is necessary to discern what Scripture says about women who even occasionally preach or teach over men in a Sunday service.
Some of the topics discussed in this episode:
- The authority and sufficiency of Scripture
- What is Scripture?
- Where does it come from?
- What authority was given to the Apostles?
- Who is Head of the Church?
- The Holy Spirit’s work through Paul in instructing how the church is to be run.
- Looking at 1Tim.1:3-2:7 and 1Corin. 14:33-35 in context.
- What is preaching?
May this episode bless you and bring glory to God!
Other resources:
Striving for Eternity
Christian Podcast Community
Thoroughly Equipped "break" episode.
Sharing with you another awesome podcast from the Christian Podcast Community. Mr. & Mrs. Mynyk discuss 4 things you should never do when dealing with conflict in your marriage.
To listen to the other topics related to this series go to: https://www.truthspresso.com/episode/0108-conflict-resolution-in-marriage-part-1-four-things-you-should-never-do
Other Resources:
Christian Podcast Community
Striving for Eternity
Thoroughly Equipped "break" episode on how I wrestled with 1 Corinthian 11.
I hope to encourage other women not to be afraid to study this text nor to neglect the text. I truly believe this topic is extremely important today and should be something every Christian woman should look into.
May this episode edify you and bring glory to God!
Resources:
What is the “covering”? http://studyholiness.com/doc/Headcovering_blog.pdf
Other women’s journey into headcoverings: https://www.headcoveringmovement.com/ *I do not agree with everything involved with this movement but it has been a very helpful resource in understanding the arguments for head covering as well as seeing how other women dealt with the issue and how it has affected their lives.
In depth teachings:
https://www.cornerstonebible.org/series/head-coverings/
https://www.dotheology.com/e/the-one-about-head-coverings/
https://www.amazon.com/Head-Covering-Forgotten-Christian-Practice/dp/0995203601/ref=sr_1_1?crid=A5BFQC1VDA5W&keywords=head+covering+a+forgotten+christian+practice+for+modern+times&qid=1644442658&sprefix=head+covering%3A+A+%2Caps%2C75&sr=8-1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Zmjyvet_4
Other resources:
Striving for Eternity
Christian Podcast Community
Thoroughly Equipped EXTRA break Episode
Just my 2 cents on the modesty controversy on Twitter.
Used in this recording:
The power of Modest Clothing by Brian Holdsworth
Pastor Causes Internet MELTDOWN With Viral Tweet About Christian Women In Bikinis!!! By Spencer Smith
Resources:
RC.Sproul The Tyranny of the Weaker Brother
John MacArthur God’s High Calling of Women
Striving for Eternity Christian Podcast Community